Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 29 Oct 2020


No summary available.








The House met at 14:00.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.




Question 454:


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you House Chair, we appreciate the question by hon Malatsi, let me just repeat the question. He asked what are the reasons that his office has not been able to introduce lifestyle audits for members of the executive since the President of the Republic announced the introduction of lifestyle audits in his reply to a debate. The reply is as follows; lifestyle audits have not yet been conducted on members of the Cabinet. Nonetheless, it must be pointed out



that a draft lifestyle audit framework for members of the executive has been produced. Consultations on this draft audit framework have been undertaken and are ongoing. We are therefore, confident that after the conclusions of these consultations, lifestyle audits will be undertaken.



In the meantime, as we all know colleagues, all members of the Cabinet, Ministers and Deputy Ministers submitted their declarations of their financial interests to the Registrar of Executive Interests and the Secretary of Cabinet in line with Executive Members’ Ethics Act and the Executive Ethics Code. So, whilst we are finalising the lifestyle audit framework through consultations, the issues of ethics are being adhered to through the instruments that I have spoken to; Executive Members’ Ethics Act and the Executive Ethics Code that requests, ensures and enjoins all members to declare their interests. I have also done so and all of us have done so. Thank you very much.



Mr M S MALATSI: Minister Mthembu, the problem with that answer is that on 16 October 2019, in the NCOP, Minister Mchunu from the Department of Public Service and Administration said that this administration is finalizing draft regulations for the finalization of lifestyle audits. To refresh your memory, in the



state of the nation address, this year, the President again underscored the need to finish this.



To contrast this, the Premier of the Western Cape, Alan Winde, committed to conducting lifestyle audits before taking office and three months ago, he conducted them.



The question becomes: Why is it taking so long to finalize this when it was introduced two years ago? Two years later, they still haven’t been finalized. Another question is: When will those consultations be finished so that these lifestyle audits can then be published in line with the commitment that both you and the President have made in different forums? You made it so in the Budget debate for the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, and the President did so on two consecutive state of the nation addresses. Thanks, Chair.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: We are committed to these lifestyle audits. However, as you will know, it will be the first time in the history of the democratic South Africa that members of the national executive are subjected to such audits. Therefore, it was very important that everybody is taken on board so that whatever they do does not contrast with the rights that all South Africans enjoy, including members of the executive. That is why



there is a necessity for consultations and a framework that all of us should agree on. I can assure you, you are right. Minister Mchunu did speak to lifestyle audits and instruments that are already in place for the administration. I can assure you that by March next year, we should be concluding on these matters of lifestyle audits for the administration.



A lot has been done as it relates to the administration. Indeed, a lot is being done as it relates to the executive, as I have said. The mere fact that we have already done a lot in the administration to enforce lifestyle audits it shows our willingness to take this matter forward of lifestyle audits. We have produced a framework, a framework we are consulting on and are quiet certain that long before Minister Mchunu concludes the lifestyle audits in March 2021, we would have started at the level of the executive. We are very confident of that. Thank you very much.



Ms S G N MBATHA: My question will be: May the Minister in The Presidency kindly indicate when will the draft lifestyle audit framework be finalised and how long will the process take going forward? Thank you.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you colleagues, as indicated, our commitment to introduce lifestyle audits for members of the executive will be concluded long before the end of the of this financial, which is in March. As I have already indicated to hon Malatsi, Minister Mchunu will be concluding the lifestyle audits as it relates to members of the entire administration by March 2021. The executive would have concluded on the consultation of the framework by then. We are quiet certain that the President will also have taken the country into his confidence on how are we taking the process forward after concluding the consultations. Thank you very much.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you very much, House Chair and the Minister for your response, I think what you are not telling us

... before I tell you what you are not telling us, let me say this that you will appreciate and understand that we have a serious challenge in the country with regard to high levels of corruption and the mechanism you have in place at the moment are entirely inadequate. Can you tell us what exactly is the reason why it takes you three years to start this? What was the problem? What were the challenges that you were facing that it had to take this long?



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Shaik Emam, we have indicated that members of the executive, notwithstanding the nonavailability of lifestyle audits as we speak, they are enjoined by our Constitution and the laws of the country to declare all their financial interests, which we do. Every year, we do declare because the Executive Ethics Code enjoins us to do so.



So, the absence of the lifestyle audits does not take away that members of the executive must be ethical and that they must act ethically all the time and this is what we have done in this executive and we will continue to do so.

In addition, we are introducing the lifestyle audits at the level of the executive, something that has not been done in the country by the way. It is the first time in 26 years that this is being introduced. We are doing so because the governing party ... the glorious ANC in its conferences, said we must do so. All of us agree with you, hon Shaik Emam, all of us must do everything we can to avoid and to deal with corruption.

We believe that some of the tools that we could use to suppress corrupt activities and corruption is through lifestyle audits and therefore, we are still committed. Yes, colleagues will also know that we needed to consult broadly. Colleagues will also know that we have also had COVID-19 in South Africa that made consultations a little bit difficult. [Time expired.] Thank you very much.


Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much House Chair, Minister, your government has been tackling lifestyle audits for almost a decade now. This has not happened yet. We know now that it will never happen at least not at the level where senior politicians, like yourself will be tracked.



Many of your colleagues have farms and businesses run by their proxies and uses government connections to enrich themselves and their families. Do you think it is possible for Ministers and other leaders of the ANC to open about their sources and their wealth if their own President who has abused the court to hide those that have funded his campaign to become a President? How must South Africans know whether or not those who have funded the President are not beneficiaries of government contracts? If so, do you still warrant that lifestyle audits must happen at the highest level of government, starting from your President? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I don’t know whether this colleague has the capacity to listen. [Laughter.] We are busy with lifestyle audit framework as we speak ... [Interjections.]



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I have capacity to listen. On a point of order, Chair. I will not be disrespected like that by that man.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I will not be disrespected like that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... you have asked a question ... [Interjections.]



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I am not hearing ... [Inaudible.] ... and he must withdraw that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am not going on a dialogue with you. Let’s allow the hon Minister to respond. Hon member, if you continue doing what you are doing, I will ask the Serjeant-at-arms to remove you from the platform. Hon Minister, let us also not reflect ... [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: Chairperson!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am busy with the Minister. I am directing a response to the Minister. Hon Minister,



let us not reflect on the capacity or not of hon members, whether they can listen or not. Please just withdraw that remark.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I withdraw. House Chair, the governing party, in its conference of 2017 at Nasrec made this call that all of us, particularly public representatives must also be subjected to these things called lifestyle audits and we are all in agreement. Therefore, it can’t be decades. I can’t be. From 2017 to 2020 is three years. A decade is 10 years. [Laughter.]



Having said that Chair, let’s correct the colleagues that we are all as members of the executive, led by the President of the Republic of South Africa committed to lifestyle audits. That’s why we are busy now consulting on the lifestyle audit framework. No question about it. We are going to do it before March, next year. Indeed, we would have had members of the executive of the Republic of South Africa having been consulted and having consulted with other people on this matter. We will have the implementation of lifestyle audits at the level of the executive. Thank you very much.



Question 431:




AFFAIRS: House Chair, in relation to the question about the number



of municipalities that have been placed under section 139 of the Constitution, we currently have 29 municipalities that have been subjected to interventions in terms of section 139 of the Constitution. In this regard, in the provinces we have various municipalities and I will go through various provinces to indicate where section 139 has been implemented.



The KwaZulu-Natal has nine section 139 interventions, followed by Mpumalanga, which also has nine, North West, five, Free State, four, Gauteng, three, northern Cape, three, Eastern Cape, two, Limpopo, one and Western Cape, one. I think that it is important to emphasize that we are talking about the different subsections of section 139 of the Constitution. So, it is not always the same intervention that has been invoked.



With regards to the challenges faced by the administrators, it is important to reflect on some of the challenges also in relation to our direct experience, but also on the basis of the reports that we have received from various administrators. In this regard, some of the administrators have faced problems in implementation, particularly with regards to inconsistencies in their application of section 139. From the other administrators we have observed the challenges like inadequate reporting and monitoring systems.



Further to this, some interventions are reliant on one individual to solve systemic and structural challenges that have been there for a long time. So, in essence, what tends to happen is that one individual is sent to go and resolve major problems in municipalities. In order to address these challenges, we are working on Intergovernmental Monitoring, Support and Interventions Bill, which will articulate how interventions should be addressed.



Secondly, we have established a task team with our colleagues in National Treasury to develop a joint approach on how to effectively support municipalities under the intervention, and how to respond on some of the challenges encountered during implementation. This joint approach will be implemented in collaboration with the provinces. Thank you very much.



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Through you House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, all of these things that you are mentioning are happening, but they are not helping at all. Nevertheless, Deputy Minister, let me just pose a question to you. Is it true that many of these municipalities where the administrators have failed to make a turnaround, it is because they have been allocating tenders to their friends? This continues to make the situation of the municipalities worse. They do not go there to stabilise and build internal capacity.



All corruption is part of the problem, outsourcing is also part of the problem, Deputy Minister. Lack of municipal capacity do deliver basic services, is part of the problem. Substitution of highly qualified municipal workers with temporal Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, workers who got exploited, is a problem. We have seen this in all the municipalities under the administration, in the North West and in the City of Tshwane.



Deputy Minister, should you too think that, if we stop outsourcing of basic services such as roads, water, infrastructure, maintenance, grass cutting, town cleaning and security guards and build internal capacity municipality, will things improve and our people will have jobs that are permanent? Thank you, Chairperson.





AFFAIRS: Through you House Chairperson, let me thank hon Mkhaliphi for the question. But I think that we cannot conclusively stand here and say that the reason for failure to succeed in implementing section 139 interventions is as a result of supply chain management processes. In fact, we do not have a report that is consolidated that suggests that the challenges that have been identified is as a result of such failures.



I should say that, various studies have been undertaken, including an independent study by the Public Affairs Rights Institute to determine what the challenges are with regards to the intention of section 139, and this has not translated into what has been offered by hon Mkhaliphi, as having been the reasons. Do we have problems with regards to certain elements of implementation?

Certainly, we do. It is thus that I have indicated that we are working with National Treasury not just on a legislative solution, but also in relation to direct interface with provinces and municipalities to deal with the challenges in implementing section 139.



For outsourcing, I think that the model chosen to implement various services should be objectively considered in relation to the particular service that has been provided. Is there room in certain instances for insourcing? There certainly is. Is there room in certain instances for outsourcing? Certainly there is. So, I think that the application cannot be uniform but should circumstantial. Thank you very much.



Mr C BRINK: Deputy Minister, section 139 of the Constitution requires national legislation to be passed by Parliament, dealing with the intervention of government in dysfunctional municipalities. But 26 years after the Constitution has been



passed in this Chamber, we don’t yet have such intervention legislation. So, what you get in some provinces is that hands-off approach is followed when municipalities collapse, such is in the case of Makana in the Eastern Cape.



In other instances, provinces abuse the powers that they have for political purposes outside of the Constitution in order to intervene, such as the case of Tshwane where we recently heard the Gauteng provincial Government smacked down. [Applause.] So, an Intervention Bill or intervention law detailing what should be done could help Tshwane-like abuse of power ... [Interjections.]



The HOSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your question?



Mr C BRINK: ... and Makana-like interventions. My question is, when will such Intervention Bill be brought to Parliament? Thank you.





AFFAIRS: Through you House Chairperson, let me thank hon Brink. I think that in my initial response I indicated that the Intergovernmental Monitoring, Support and Interventions Bill has been drafted and is going through various processes of



consultation. As to when will it come to Parliament, would be subject to those processes. I should indicate that, as a department, we have prioritised this Bill, because it will enable the addressing of challenges such as inconsistences in the application of various sections of the section 139 of the Constitution.



I don’t think that we should always deal with political posturing when we are dealing with such matters. So, in as much as you can refer to Tshwane, I can refer to instances where a municipality has written to us about the conduct of the Western Cape Provincial Government with regards to intervention, including the recordings that have gone out publicly dealing with the collusion between an MEC in the province with a caucus of a municipality to facilitate, in fact, a process of section 139 intervention. So, you can deal with those allegations.



As a department, our view is to have an objective assessment of the implementation and to determine whether this is appropriate or inappropriate, and on the basis of that, support the province appropriately. Thank you very much.



Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, the Portfolio Committee of Co-operative Governance and Traditional



Affairs on 28 July 2020 received a briefing by the department that most of the municipalities which has interventions, instead of improving, some of them were actually deteriorating.



So, I would actually like to understand if the department actually realised that they needed to take over the national government?

Also, I would like to get the latest progress on the interventions thereof. What is the latest progress on the intervention of section 139, and how many municipalities across the country might possibly require the national executive to intervene in terms of section 139(7) due to failure of the provincial executive to do so? Thank you.





AFFAIRS: Through you House Chairperson, let me thank hon for the questions. Let me indicate that our view as the department regards application of section 139(7) is that all of us should be circumvent in invoking section 139(7) until such time that we can collectively establish that there is a direct failure in ability to, or reluctance to implement an intervention by provincial government.



It would be inappropriate for national government to sit and say that, well, if we are now going to intervene in all instances,



therefore, we are overtaking provincial governments in undertaking their executive of applications. Our starting point should be to support the provinces, to undertake their section 139 obligations and also the executive obligations in terms of oversight in municipalities.



It should be under exceptional circumstances that national government invokes section 139(7) and directly intervenes. That is the view and approach that we have taken, and I wish to suggest that all of us should focus in providing support to provincial governments to undertake their primary mandate in relation to local government. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr I M GROENEWALD: Through you House Chair, hon Deputy Minister, due to the section 100 interventions in the North West, there is little to no accountability, an oversight with regards to municipalities in the province which are currently under section

139 interventions. The administrator does not account and thus the legislature has no oversight of using the municipalities.



What would be done by the department to ensure that effective set of section 139 interventions, given the provincial administration, and would will there be a report to the National Assembly on the section 139 interventions, or whilst in the intervention only



apply to stabilise the ANC infighting and the abuse of government’s power? Thank you, hon House Chair.





AFFAIRS: The section 100 intervention in the North West Province is under constant review by national government and we are continuously evaluating various elements of implementation of the section 100 intervention, not just the Department of Co-operative Governance, but all of government.



You would note that Minister Dlamini-Zuma has been designated to continue championing the implementation of section 100 in the North West Province and in this regard, a report in due to Cabinet to review the implementation to the extent of the departments that we have seen focused and the departments that we have not seen focused so that decisions can be made in that regard, and in due course, it will be reported upon.



As to the administrators in the municipalities, we have requested the MEC in the province to provide us with the comprehensive report, in particular, with close out report as a result of the decision taken by provincial executive in about July this year, with regards to the municipalities under intervention. From the



basis of those close out reports will make a determination of what to do in relation to those specific municipalities.



Hon House Chair, may I hasten to say that some of these municipalities under section 139(1)(b) has been reinstated by the provincial government of the North West Province. Thank you very much.



Question 443:




AFFAIRS: House Chair and thank you to hon Hadebe for the questions that has been raised with regards to support for revenue initiatives in municipalities. The Eskom Political Task Team that is chaired by the Deputy President has established a multi- disciplinary revenue disciplinary committee, and our department is aa active participant in this committee.



The mandate of the committee is to support municipalities to address broader revenue management challenges within the revenue value chain of municipalities. These include, but is not limited to addressing the debt owed to municipalities and in fact in the process, also the debt owed by municipalities. This project is aimed at better informing the setting of a proper tariff structure



and ensuring that the tariffs in municipalities are cost reflective.



Municipalities are also assisted with policy formulations in ensuring that they are credible and to prevent less disputes on implementation of policies. The department is leading a government wide support to encourage municipal consumers at large to pay their outstanding debts through the responsive citizenry campaign that was launched earlier this month. This is intended to educate customers about the benefits of paying for municipal services and also for services that are being provided by municipalities and how these are funded in the respective municipal spaces.



The Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs has previously assisted certain municipalities with simplified revenue plans which looked at enhancing revenue by means of data cleaning, review of policies, meter auditing and indigent management.



The Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta has developed the South African Economic Recovery Plan for Municipalities in relation to COVID-19 and is currently consulting sector experts to solicit their input before finalisation.



The plan amongst others emphasises the need to explore the potential of Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs to liberate the economic potential of regions and reinventing the value for local wellbeing. Various champions have been allocated by Cogta to work with municipalities, particularly with regards to establishing business development forums and the roles that these would take as partners in economic development.



Furthermore, the department is working with the private sector and state owned enterprises in vulnerable municipalities by allowing such to identify the municipalities that they wish to work with and support. An example of such partnership is Elundini Local Municipality and a partnership with PG Bison. PG Bison is providing the support and upskilling of the community in areas such as disaster management, small town revitalisation, furniture manufacturing, skills transfer and local economic development.



Similar partnerships, without going into detail now have been established between Santam, Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit, GIZ, the Nelson Mandela Bay Business Chamber to support the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan Municipality and the Sarah Baartman District Municipality. A similar partnership has also been established in Rand West City Local Municipality in the West Rand, Gauteng Province between the



GIZ, Gold Fields Limited and the Mineral Council South Africa to intervene in facilitating local economic development.



In our effort to supporting municipalities to collect revenues from organs of state that are disputing bills issued by municipalities, we have prepared a step by step guide to intergovernmental dispute and settlement as required by the Constitution and the Intergovernmental Framework Act of 2005. The terms of reference for appointing facilitators have been prepared by the department and such facilitators should be appointed in due course. Thank you very much.





Mnu B M HADEBE: Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo, ngiphinde ngibonge nakuwe Sekela Ngqongqoshe ngempendulo yakho.





Deputy Minister, with reference to the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta developing the South African Economic Recovery Plan for all municipalities in our country in response to COVID-19. Can you share with us the time frames attached to this process and also if there are any further relevant decay processes attached to this plan, please share with us?





Ngibonge kakhulu Sihlalo nakuwe Sekela Ngqongqoshe.





AFFAIRS: Thank you once again Hon Hadebe with an “H” [Laughter.] Hon Hadebe I would like to say that, as you have correctly reflected, as a department we worked on complementing the national reconstruction and recovery plan by developing a local government focussed intervention in economic development. The framework in this regard has been developed and is currently going through various levels of consultation, including with the critical partners and role players which would be local government itself.



The plan looks amongst others, interventions with regards to social and solidarity economies in local government, facilitating labour intensive infrastructure investment, introducing financing this developmental for local government taking into account the legislative provision that allows local government to market to be able to increase its capital expenditure, looking at SMME’s and cooperatives as partners in the development of not just municipal services, but also the development of local economies.



The projects themselves are at different levels of implementation. At some point Minister Patel reflected on the country developing a



frame work for social and solidarity economies. It is within the context of this framework that we would be able to implement.

Notwithstanding that, we are continuing to develop a mechanism for local governments to implement social and solidarity economy interventions.



There are other projects such as financing infrastructure that are well underway and in fact ready for implementation. This includes the private sector participation model, the infrastructure investment and pool financing initiatives that are currently being undertaken jointly with the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, Ministry of Finance and other stakeholders. Thank you very much.



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much House Chair and Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, most of the rural municipalities are simply not working well with the current funding model for municipalities. Most rural municipalities simply cannot generate revenue through rates as compared to metropolitan municipalities.



We heard Minister Mboweni opposing the idea of restructuring the municipal funding model yesterday. Since municipalities are at the core phase of service delivery, is there any consideration to perhaps reduce the number of provinces or even eliminate province



altogether in order to redirect resources and attention to the local government level? Thank you House Chair.





AFFAIRS: Thank you very much House Chair and hon Mkhaliphi. In fact, there is currently a discussion between ourselves and National Treasury with regards to funding for local government and the future of financing local government in the country, including not just current revenue sources but alternative revenue sources.



Various stakeholders including the Finance and Fiscal Commission and South African Local Government Association, Salga have made specific proposals that are under consideration with regards to how we should finance local government going forward, particularly with regards to municipalities that do not have an adequate tax base. That is the subject of current discussions that are being undertaken between ourselves and Treasury in consultation with other stakeholders.



With regards to the discussion in this department around provincial boundaries, particularly the elimination of provinces completely or the reduction of provinces, as a department we do no0t have that discussion underway. Thank you very much.





Mnu X NGWEZI: Siyathokoza Sihlalo kakhulu, Sekela Ngqongqoshe ngiyathokoza ngempendulo yakho ngoba bengizobuza ukuthi ninazo yini izinhlelo zokulungisa izingqinamba ezibhekene nemikhandlu yakithi, ikakhulukazi ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Kodwa ngiyabona ukuthi zikhona izinhlelo futhi uyazichaza. Ngibona sengathi uhlelo lwenu lugxile ezindaweni ezisemadolobheni kanti inkinga enkule ebhekene nomasipala yizindawo lapho kukhona omasipala basemakhaya. Manje ngifisa ukwazi ukuthi singabona nini uhulumeni ehlasela ngempela izinkinga ezibhekene nomasipala, ukuze omasipala bakwazi ukuzenzele imali bona uqobo, bakwazi ukuthi basheshe bafinyelelise nezidingo kubantu. Singabona nini uqala ukuhlasela, mhlawumbe ...





... by when can we actually expect the results of such initiatives, because ...





... abantu bakithi bajahe intuthuko ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Ngiyathokoza.





AFFAIRS: Thank you House Chair and hon Ngwezi. Let me say that interventions are currently underway in line with the District



Development Model to intervene in all municipalities, in fact with a specific bias to rural municipalities. You would know that in terms of the pilot initiatives that we have undertaken, a specific focus was on those municipalities that had rural characteristics, amongst others in the Waterberg District Municipality and the OR Tambo District Municipality. We were conscious of the fact that our intervention should support municipalities that have lesser capacity.



With regards to Ethekwini Metropolitan Municipality, one of the conscious decisions that we must go to Ethekwini Metropolitan Municipality as a pilot, is because it is a metropolitan municipality that has vast tracks of rural land under traditional authorities. That presents a different set of trends with regards to urban based municipalities with particular rural characteristics in their outskirts. In essence, I am saying that implementation is currently underway in terms of the District Development Model and we will continue to see the results as they are implemented. Thank you very much.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you House Chair. Deputy Minister arising from your response, according to the 2018-2019 Municipal Audit Report by the Auditor-General, only 20 out of 257 municipalities received a clean audit and 31% of the municipalities are in a vulnerable



financial position. The problem to a large extent is not so much a lack of revenue generation or local economic programmes but a failure to hold into account senior leaders of municipalities for being complicit in fraud, corruption wasteful and irregular expenditure.



Hon Deputy Minister, what steps has your department, yourself or the Minister taken to enforce consequence management to ensure that revenue generated at local government level is not squandered, looted or stolen by having “the wrong people with the hands at the till” according to the Auditor-General’s report itself? Thank you.





AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon House Chair and hon Swart. I think we are all cognisant of the outcomes consolidated report from the Auditor-General, and the picture it paints with regards to control environment in local government accountability and general issues in relations to asset management and management supply chain management in particular.



In this report, a number of areas where there should be an intervention by all of government have been identified. I should confirm that we have been in constant consultation and engagement



with the Auditor-General on not just the outcomes of the report, but also what can be done to deal with the nature of problems that they have identified in certain municipalities. In this regard, I can confirm that these consultations are intended to facilitate without the auditors taking over the responsibility of the municipalities, rather a mechanism through which it would enable us to facilitate better support to municipalities.



Have we taken action with regards with accountability in municipalities? In certain instances, when provinces are not intervening timeously, we have gone to the provinces and said, there are these specific problems in this municipality and we need you to report on the basis of your intervention on what you are doing. Whether it is in relation to support intervention, we would require a report.



I do however repeat a point that I raised earlier, our approach remains that of providing support to the provinces to undertake their executive obligations to oversee the work of local government before we come in directly as the national department. Thank you very much.



Question 430:





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): [Interjections.] Very true. Thank you very much, hon House Chair, and to hon Ntshayisa for the question with regard to the issue of the Harry Gwala District, and in particular, the interventions with regard to Matatiele.



As part of the Minister’s role in providing leadership, guidance and oversight to local government, various engagements have taken place regarding this matter of the constitutional amendments in relation to the location of Matatiele.



The Minister has a role to facilitate a political and administrative process that would enable an outcome on this matter, and I should say that we are not there yet. We are not at the point where we are dealing with the final outcome. However, the outcome would be part of a process that we will collectively have to undertake, both as government and as Parliament.



However, it is important to note that the Department of Co- operative Governance has engaged with the Department of Justice and Correctional Services on this matter, where a process of compliance in terms of section 74(5) of the Constitution was initiated and this process led to consultations, amongst others with the provinces of KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape as



required by law. The respective provinces have concluded on their respective views in this regard.



The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services has also requested views from all the other provinces with regard to particular proposals for constitutional amendments of provincial boundaries. That process should be resuscitated jointly between ourselves and the Department of Justice.



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I’ve got a very sharp pain at the back here. Perhaps it’s because we are dealing today with a very strong, young Deputy Minister.



Deputy Minister, I thought perhaps this question would be answered by Minister Dlamini because she was the one who had a meeting with us as the AIC. I’m not suggesting that you don’t have any capacity. I’ve seen that you are very strong.



However, as a follow up question, I’ll just touch on two issues here. The issues are the referendum that was conducted by the late Minister Stella Sigcau and the coalition that we have with you.



Firstly, the late Stella Sigcau conducted a referendum, testing the views of the people of Matatiele, and in going around to the



voting stations it was found that more than 69% were in favour of being incorporated into Matatiele, rather, into KwaZulu-Natal.

That never happened and the results were not released. I would like to know why those results of the report were not released by the department ... having wasted taxpayers’ money.



Secondly Deputy Minister, I would like to know what is happening because the first term of reference in our agreement that we as the AIC have with you regarding the Ekurhuleni Municipality is that Matatiele will be incorporated into KwaZulu-Natal, but that has not yet happened.



I want to check what is actually happening because the people of Matatiele had spoken. Can you just respond, to their satisfaction, because they are not oblivious to the promises that were made by you?



Mr Z MLENZANA: ... [Inaudible.] ... information ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mlenzana, you are completely out of order! What you are doing is unacceptable! The hon Deputy Minister?





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair and thank you to hon Ntshayisa, also for the compliments.



Let me start with the last point that you raised because in essence it would be remiss of me to speak here in Parliament on behalf of two parties that engaged between themselves. [Applause.] So, I would really suggest ... And, in this regard, I might also not be the appropriate person because as you might probably know, I only serve in a provincial structure but my national leaders in the party are here and I would encourage engagement between my national leaders and yourselves in this regard. [Applause.] I’m sure that you would accept ...



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Very strong. [Applause.]





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Hon Ntshayisa, I’m sure that you would accept my limitations without disregarding your question.



With regard to the point of the referendum, this point was in fact raised previously with us, and I went on to research this matter of a referendum because in terms of the Constitution of the Republic, if you undertake a referendum you can’t hide the



results. The first thing we had to establish in the department was if there had been a referendum because if there is a referendum you are constitutionally obliged to release the results. The process is prescribed.



So, after various levels of engagements, the response, at least to me, was no, no, no, Deputy Minister, you see, it was actually a survey. [Laughter.] Now, it’s not I who says so; it’s the department. We asked a simple question. In law you cannot ignore the results of a referendum. So in essence ...



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ntshayisa, the Deputy Minister is responding to your question about the referendum and he says it was a survey. [Laughter.] So, give him an opportunity to complete.





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thanks hon Chair. I do think that, notwithstanding the results, various processes of engaging with public views on this matter have been undertaken and all of these should be brought together in arriving at a final determination of the decision, so that when we say that we have tested people’s



views we include the results of the survey, current engagements with the communities and so on. So, that should continue to contribute to the final outcome. [Applause.]



Ms A F MUTHAMBI: Thank you so much, House Chair and thank you, hon Deputy Minister for the response. One would like to know what it is that the Deputy Minister can share in respect of the country’s municipal demarcation experience since the 2016 local government election. In his answer, if the Deputy Minister can also reflect on whether the amalgamated municipalities are effectively fulfilling their mandates given their viability challenges, as well as on the steps that the Ministry of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has taken to ensure that the National Treasury allocates adequate resources to these municipalities.





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, House Chair and thank you to our portfolio committee chair, the hon Muthambi.



Firstly, I think that we should all welcome the decision of the Municipal Demarcation Board which said that for the purposes of the 2021 local government election they would not engage in a process to redetermine external boundaries. This is important, at least on the basis of what the demarcation board says, because it



should enable us to have a deeper understanding of some of the challenges that we have experienced after the redetermination of municipal boundaries. Going forward, part of this result should enable us to be able to mitigate some of the problems that we have experienced. Let me refer to some of the problems, at least what we have observed, in the last cycle of the determination of outer boundaries of municipalities, particularly in relation to the amalgamation of municipalities.



The first problem was that there were only seven months between the period at which a determination was made for amalgamation and the actual implementation. So, literally, you are putting two institutions together in seven months and that has created problems.



The second problem relates to the adequacy, at least as raised by local government itself, of the transition fund to deal with the problems that come with amalgamation.



The third problem relates to the issue of discussions that take place in local labour forums when you get to a point at which you need to merge the administrations of two different municipalities, and therefore issues of salary parity ... and in many instances this has impacted negatively on the municipality’s ability to



exercise its responsibility because they are also resolving salary issues, and resolutions are taken in local labour forums.



Therefore, this suggests that, as part of the overall review of the fiscal framework in relation to local government, we also have to look at how the mergers of municipalities require a review of the financial sustainability of those merged municipalities, including reviewing their revenue base ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Your time has now expired. The third supplementary question will be asked by the hon Opperman. The hon Opperman?



Ms G OPPERMAN: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, the demarcation board’s phase four, regarding the ward delimitation process, ended in August this year with the hand over of the final wards to the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC.



What are the total number of new wards added to municipalities as a result of the demarcation process and how will the elimination of plenary municipalities impact financially on local government?





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Hon House Chair and hon Opperman, at this



point we as a department have not done a comprehensive review of the numbers as added in terms of the overall consolidated numbers in the provinces. So, it would be difficult for me to give such an indication. However, hon Opperman, I’m sure I can offer this in a meeting of the portfolio committee by just seeking that information from the demarcation board and providing it to you.



Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, the process of relocating, or rather reincorporating, the Matatiele Local Municipality into KwaZulu-Natal under the Harry Gwala District Municipality has been going on for a very long time and much to the disadvantage of the community. It is common knowledge that the decision to relocate Matatiele was merely a political deal and had very little to do with the best interests of the community. The process was flawed and insufficient consultations were conducted with the community. It resulted in huge, wasteful expenditure. In fact, we are reminded of how the apartheid government actually wanted to hand over the people of Ingwavuma to the then Swaziland state.



In light of the corruption experienced in local government, how are you going to ensure that this department protects the people of the area that have been disenfranchised for far too long?





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you, hon House Chair and hon Ngwezi. I think the first point which is important to make is that the discussions around Matatiele did not start in 2016. In fact, these matters were raised before 2016 and proposals around constitutional amendments were raised before 2016. So, I think to suggest that in fact the discussions taking place around constitutional amendments to provincial boundaries were as a result of 2016 would be somewhat disingenuous.



With regard to the support to the municipality itself and the disenfranchisement of people, the Matatiele ... or the municipality itself, continues to be viewed in a broadline of it as a municipality and is provided support as a municipality in its own right.



So, the determination of the allocation in particular districts should not necessarily imply that the respective provincial governments do not have an executive obligation to that municipality. Therefore, the people should not necessarily be disenfranchised by a decision in one way or another, and it certainly is not our intention to disenfranchise anyone.



Question 442:





Chair, the reply is as follows: Given the cost-cutting nature of e-government technology used to improve procurement in the public service is found in various institutions. The National Treasury has the Central Supplier Database which is called Central Supplier Database, CSD. This is a technology base solution where suppliers are registered. They do self-registration and their details are then verified by SA Revenue Service, Sars, and the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, CIPC, to ensure that they are compliant with the relevant laws as well as whether they are fit and proper to conduct business with government.



Department restitutions are therefore expected to choose suppliers that are on the CSD when they have procured procurement requirements. Information on directors’ companies registered in the CSD is mapped against persal data to identify public servants registered as directors’ and suppliers doing business with government.



The other processes that they undergo in the interest of time, I just want to jump to an additional point that going forward what the Department of Public Service Administration is currently engaging State Information Technology Agency, Sita, to upgrade the current e-disclosure system, an integrated with government’s basic



accounting system. The idea is to ensure that payments done through bars can be mapped against the actual public servants that would have received payments from government transactions.



While the interventions are technology based, they are part of ethics integrity management intervention by the Department of Public Service Administration and other public sector and institutions. This is a very important development relevant to the question. Thank you very much.





Nk R M M LESOMA: Mangibonge Sihlalo wale Ndlu, kubalulekile ngendlela eyisimanga mhlonishwa Macingwane ukubambisana koMnyango wakho kanye noMnyango wezokuHlela ukuQapha kanye nokuHlola [DPME] kulomcimbi we-ICT onokudidiyeleka nokuhleleka kabusha ukuze sibone imiphumela eyamukelekayo emiphakathini yethu ngemisebenzi kahulumeni. Ikakhulukazi kwi-persal ngoba phela lokhu kungasiza kakhulu ekukhucululeni nokuvikela ukuqashwa komuntu owone ngapha simbone esethi thushu ngapha komunye uMnyango kahulumeni. Ingabe lo mbono unganceda yini mhlonishwa Macingwane? Ngiyabonga kakhulu.







Mina Lesoma, umbuzo wakho ubalulekile kakhulu. Impendulo yakhona



ukuthi lo mbono oqhamuka nawo ungasiza kakhulu ukuvala noma ukuvimba phakathi kwezinye izinto, ukukhwabanisa okuyibona esikhala ngabo kulelizwe njengamanje. [Ubuwelewele.]





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let us just deal with this matter. There is an hon member who has the microphone on the virtual platform and is disturbing proceedings.



Hon member, please switch off your microphone!






It is the hon Nomvuzo Shabalala. Please continue hon Minister.







ukudlula lapho ukuthi kuvinjwe ukukhwabanisa okwenziwa abasebenzi bakahulumeni phakathi kweMinyango. Lokhu kuyachapazela uma ngabe labasebenzi behambahamba phakathi kwemikhakha kahulumeni, ukusukela kuhulumeni kaZwelonke, oweziFundazwe ukuyofika kuhulumeni wasemakhaya ukuze kuvimbeke. Yingakho nje manje simatasatasa ngokuthi sifinyelele kulo mthetho weSahluko se-10 kuMthethosisekelo othi: akubekhona Ukuphathwa komphakathi okukodwa



[one Public Administration] okuhlangene eNingizimu Afrika ukuze sikwazi ukuhlengahlegisa le zimo. Ngiyabonga.





Ms M O CLARKE: Hon Chairperson, it is a pity that when you are on your virtual platform you are disadvantaged in term of translation.



What steps are being taken Minister, to modernise the government information and communications technology, ICT, procurement and in particular the State Information Technology Agency Act and reduced corruption in state-bought ICT procurement considering that the Act is now 23-years-old and has not kept up its changes in technology trends, procurement trends, computing uses and big data? I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member before I give the Minister the opportunity to respond, there is translation service available on the virtual platform. You must just check the bottom of your screen there is an icon which says interpretation and click on English then you will get the necessary translation. The hon Minister.



Ms M O CLARKE: Thank you, Chairperson.





much. Sorry about that. Hon member, with regard to your question, I will more or less go back to the same answer that was provided to the hon Mina Lesoma, but now in answer to what you are saying.



The first thing that I want to say and emphasize is that no ICT will proof to be waterproof in terms of its prevention of rampant or of corruption. We rather need an ICT including ICT procurement merely to make it easy to detect issues of corruption because of record making and its easiness in terms of accessibility should need for investigations arise.



The first thing that we need to do is to preach to the public, particularly in the public service space, but also in the private public space that corruption is criminal. It is criminality which must be dealt with by the law-enforcement agencies and it will be like that. However, if there are means and ways that we can derive from using ICT in terms of procurement that could have a better impact or an increased impact on preventing corruption then we do it. However, I must say that yes, there are indications that it is very helpful in terms of procurement because as I have said in this response that already we are benefitting some of the yields from these ICT links in terms of doing procurement and the ease



with which those who want to procure access government services. Thank you.



Ms R N KOMANE: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, the COVID-19 pandemic has exposed the fruitlessness of our tender systems more than anything before. It is essentially a system used by the powerful and the connected to get richer from the state sources that are needed for delivering services to the most marginalised. They even steal funds needed for the lifesaving equipment.



Why is it that the state cannot develop internal capacity to do most of the functions that the government needs to perform? Is there any strategic reason for trimming down the service provided by the state directly and outsourcing most of these to the private sector? Thank you very much, Minister.





would say that I am not necessarily aware that the state is outsourcing most of its work to the private sector, but I am aware that there are instances where a department or departments has done so.



Therefore, I would say that yes, as the second part of the response this system that I was talking about in terms of



procurement is actually the one this CSD that allows service providers directly to apply for services to government. However, as I say there is no need for us to dwell into something that is not happening. That is a lot of work that is being given to the private sector except where it is necessary. Thank you.





Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Ngibonge Sihlalo nomhlonishwa uMacingwane, kulo mkhankaso wokulwa nokugcogcoma kwabasebenzi besuka kulo Mnyango bese beyomila kweminye. Akuhambi nje kodwa, kepha kukhona la ufica khona ukuthi abasebenzi basebenzise izihlobo nabangane ekubeni bacoshe imisebenzi noma amathenda eMnyangweni kahulumeni. Ngingenza nje isibonelo angazi noma uMnyango uyafinyelela noma awufinyeleli, lapho ufica ukuthi amakhansela nqo, wona uqobo anamathenda nomasipala asebenza kubona. Hlelo luni uMnyango wakho olusebenzisayo ukulandela nxazonke kungaba amakhansela emikhandlwini, amalungu ezifundazwe nezikaZwelonke ngoba ubugebengu nobugovu bulihlasele izwe lakithi, ikakhulukazi la singasebenzi khona ngokwethembeka ... [Akuzwakali.] ... isizwe kulezinsuku? Ngiyabonga.







let me concur with you that there are instances where public



servants whether elected or not elected would be said to have used their relatives who are outside public service to procure government services and the name of that game where it exists is crime exactly. As long as there is proof that there are such instances, such instances should be reported to the law- enforcement agencies because there would be one link or the other down the line proving that indeed there was such closeness between a said public servant and then an outsider who is also a relative. That can be checked through the movement of money or addresses that would have been used or any other means. As long as there is an allegation that must be followed. However, especially if there is proof. Those who have proof would need to come forward so that the law-enforcement agencies can do their job as effectively as possible. In fact, it does not have to stop only when such relations exist. Even when a public servant would be using a nonrelative. As long as there is an evidence that in fact it is the public servant himself or herself that would serve by that interest and there is criminality there then the law-enforcement should take action. Thank you.



Question 441:




DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Chair and hon Mgweba, I fully concur that there is a need for the intensification of the fight against



gender-based violence and femicide to all the vulnerable people across our country. The department participated and assisted even under COVID-19 with the development of guidelines for all Ministers and Deputy Ministers that are deployed within the district development model. Ministers and Deputy Ministers working along with councillors, police, church leaders and community-based organisations use the guidelines. This ensures action to condemn gender-based violence and femicide and communities to play their part. Men are now seen supporting the fight against the gender- based violence and femicide. Communities should lead to change societal norms. District level co-ordinators are asked to play a key role and to drive and support local responses. Ministers are required to meet with all community policing forums at every district to assign them the responsibility to track, trace and report gender-based violence and femicide in their communities daily.



Over the last few days and weeks I engaged with community-based organisations, church leaders and faith-based organisations, taxi associations like the SA Taxi Council, Satago, to urge these key stakeholders to do their parts to tackle gender-based violence and femicide within their sectors. Together with the Minister of Social Development, we spent a weekend in KwaZulu-Natal and had all faith-based organisations in particular church leaders to sign



a pledge with us that they will play their part. These stakeholders have committed to play their part especially during the upcoming 16 Days of Activism campaign. As South Africa we comply with the 16 Days of Activism against Gender-based Violence because we have signed with the UN on this matter. But as for the instruction from our President, it is 365 days of no violence against women and children - no gender-based violence against our vulnerable people.



Coming back to Ministers and Deputy Ministers deployed to the district development model, they are equipped with a checklist that also serve as a guideline in terms of things they need to look for when they are doing outreach work. This also includes advocating for the formations of multistakeholder community structures that include community policing forums where they do not exist. As rightly stated, communities are a breeding place for all these ills. There is no gender-based violence and femicide that happens in the air or at national platform. It happens where our people live in a neighbourhood.



The National Strategic Plan on gender-based violence ensures that structures such as the community policing forums are strengthened to ensure functional communities within a community safety plan. The Minister of Police also serves on the interministerial



committee, which I chair, for gender-based violence and in all meetings of the gender-based violence and femicide incidents against children, women and members of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Genderqueer, Queer, Intersexed, Agender, Asexual, and Ally community, LGBTQIA+, are discussed.



Our department is working with the premier’s offices for them to establish provincial and local government gender-based violence structures in line with the National Strategic Plan. Their purpose will be to closely monitor and immediate respond to stop any form of violence against women in their diversity, children and persons with disabilities. I thank you, Chairperson.



Ms T MGWEBA: Hon Chair, I am in the House. Thank you very much, hon Minister. With regard to the 700 000 hectors of land or land parcels that is to be made available to the public, reference to the department’s mandate of monitoring and evaluation, will the department be monitoring and evaluating that women, youth including considering LGBTQIA+ particularly those with disabilities, benefit from the land that will be made availabe to close gaps of triple challenges of inequalities, poverty and unemployment? Is the department providing support to vulnerable groups in this regard? Thank you, House Chair and hon Minister.





DISABILITIES: Thank you, Chair and hon member. The answer is, yes. Luckily, I worked for a while in Rural Development so I know what you are talking about. We are celebrating as women, youth and persons with disabilities and also LGBTQIA+ and the entire South Africa. But this is the moment for South African women to have a bite. Actually, land ownership is one thing but the people who really work the land are the vulnerable people and in particular women from all sectors that we have referred to.





Ke bona bao ba lemago; ke bona bao ba tsebago ka temo. Ka ntle le bao ba ipitšago gore ke bona balemi, basadi ke bona bao ba tsebago

- e kaba e le ba baswa goba batho bao ba sa itekanelago. Basadi ke bona bao ba tsebago gore mobu ...





 ... is not about ownership, but it’s about access. But also acces to finance because will help them do what they know best. Take care of their communities. I thank you.



Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, your department spends around 64% of your adjusted annual budget on compensation of employees. In Quarter 1, R24,6 million was spent



averaging around R8,2 million from April to June on salaries alone. In the committee meeting on 13 October, your deputy director-general admitted that your department does not have the capacity to produce and implement any monitoring and evolution frameworks despite the over bloated workforce of too many high ranking officials. Can the Minister explain what justification [Interruptions.] [Inaudible.] of your budget on salaries yet none [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, may I request the member from the EFF who is now on the platform to mute his microphone. You may ask the question, hon member.



Ms N K SHARIF: Can the Minister explain the justification of spending almost two thirds of your budget on salaries yet none, none of the officials in your department is capacitated to do any form of oversight or monitoring and evaluation? Thank you, Chair.





DISABILITIES: What we do on daily basis is exactly that - to propagate for the emancipation of all these vulnerable groups. As for the budget, I think the hon member knows also how small the budget is. So those who work where we work assisted by the Department of Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation



know that we also provide weekly reports to the Presidency co- ordinated by the very same people that you are referring to.



But let me go back to my original answer because you know very well what we say in our meetings. We say that gender-based violence is not placed on the things you are raising, but it is based on bringing everybody, all political parties. It is not the responsibility of the department alone, but all departments of government, all Members of Parliament and all communities because women are murdered by their loved ones in your backyards and in my backyards. Let’s stop this carnage that the President refers to as the second pandemic. Women, young people and disable people are not battling the coronavirus only, but he same time under lockdown they also do a battle with being molested by known and unknown people taking advantage of this scourge. So let’s work together, let’s embrace each other as the President has twice addressed this august House on this matter. It is not a departmental matter.

Fighting ender-based violence is the responsibility of all of us. I thank you.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, Chair. I will ask it on behalf of hon Ngwenya. Minister, we need to go beyond rhetoric in dealing with the scourge of gender-based violence in this country. I do feel that you don’t quite know the depth of the problems we



are facing as women in this country. Your office has done nothing in instances about the state’s actions in violence against women who were forcefully sterilised. Have you had any interactions with the Police Minister to ensure that each police station have a gender-based violence unit that is empowered to deal with sensitive measures of gender-based violence? If not, do you not see the necessity of having such a unit at police stations and stop with this rhetoric of yours. Thank you?





DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon member. I think we can politic if we like, but talking about whether I know what is happening about how women are murdered is another. The hon President has appointed an interministerial committee, IMC, that works together. So, it’s not only me in the space, but six members of Cabinet including police who are represented in the social impact work stream which is chaired, even at the administration level, by a deputy director- general responsible for social transformation and economic empowerment in the department. We have a new director-general, DG, who is only three months in the department but she is already asking is this what you have been going through. This is Advocate Maluleke who has joined us three months ago. So if she arrived and found us not knowing and not doing what we are supposed to be doing, she wouldn’t be feeling the way she feels because she



learns from us; she learns from me. We have weekly meetings and we discuss these. We go to communities. We have been to police stations at night. We have been to Polokwane Police Station, we have been to Mable Hall with the Deputy Minister of Police, we’ve been to Engcobo. We go where there is a call, but we cannot do it alone. This is not rhetoric, but a reality. Let’s work together to stop the carnage.



Ms M E SUKERS: Thank you, Chairperson. Gender-based violence is a societal issue. What intervention programmes or initiatives has the department championed at the community level to provide capacity to organisations dealing with vulnerable households to eradicate domestic violence? Thank you.





DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Chair and hon member. We continuously engage with community development organisations, nonprofit organisations, NPOs, and Social Development because we make use of their social workers to reach out. We have also planned and work with the UN Women, the police and social workers so that they get extra capacity to deal with the softer issues. These are civil society actors, CSAs, NPOs and community police forums. They are equipped with softer skills so that they are able to engage on gender-based violence and femicide. I thank you, Chair.



Question 455:


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, hon member Malatsi asked a question which we are now responding to. It is true that His Excellency President Ramaphosa could not meet the deadline to finalise and publish the performance agreements with Cabinet Ministers and members owing to the change in priorities when South Africa was hit by the COVID-19 pandemic.



All the arrangements were in place for Ministers to sign their performance agreements by mid-March 2020. We were ready. On 5 March 2020, South Africa had its first COVID-19 infection, which necessitated the declaration of the state of national disaster 10 days later.



On 23 March 2020, the President of the Republic announced an escalation in the measures to combat COVID-19, including a 21-day lockdown with effect from 26 March 2020, which was extended by another two weeks. The decisive measures were taken to save millions of South Africans from infections and save the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people and prepare the health system to deal with the demands for health services as a result of the pandemic.



The introduction of the above-mentioned measures required a review of budgets to partly fund the measures and resulted in the supplementary Budget that was tabled in June by our Minister of Finance. The supplementary Budget required departments to review their annual performance plans in line with their adjusted budgets. The focus on saving lives also required departments to perform functions that were not previously planned for. The additional functions also required a review of the annual performance plans, or APPs.



In light of the supplementary Budget and COVID-19-related functions, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, the DPME, requested departments to submit revised APPs and these were used to develop new ministerial performance agreements. It is therefore understandable that all the above processes needed to be concluded before the actual signing of performance agreements between the President and members of the executive.



With regard to the second part of your question, hon Malatsi, where you ask whether the process has now started and when it will end, the President has indeed commenced with the signing of performance agreements. We started this on 16 October, and we are finalising the signing of the performance agreements with the President tomorrow, Friday, 30 October 2020. The President will



make pronouncements thereafter regarding this matter. Thank you very much, hon Chair.



Mr M S MALATSI: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Minister Mthembu, for that response. I think it is important to always go back to the context so that we can understand where the question emanated from. During the Budget debate, you committed to these performance agreements to being finalised within 100 days of your budget speech. And while it is understandable that there was a revision of priorities as a result of the movement of budgets due to COVID-19, nothing stopped the work from continuing virtually as Parliament has been doing and as Cabinet has been doing to finalise those.



Be that as it may, we are glad to hear that as of tomorrow those performance agreements will be finalised. What is key, though, is when they will be published publicly so that we, as Members of Parliament and the public, will be able to measure the performance of these Ministers and know what they are being measured against, because, again, the commitment to publicise them wasn’t made by us, it was made by the President. Thanks, Chair.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Malatsi, you are correct. We made that commitment to publicise these performance agreements.



They will be publicised after they have been signed; of that we can assure you. The President will put them on the website so that South Africans have access to these performance agreements.

Indeed, as Members of Parliament you are then able to do your oversight.



The reality, though, Ntate Malatsi, is that there are many things you can virtually – many! – including holding meetings and engaging with portfolio committees. I’ve done so. But when it comes to signing performance agreements, you can’t sign virtually. You need to sit down with the person you are signing the agreement with and look the person in the eye ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... indeed ... and see the reaction of the person to the responsibilities ... [Interjections.] ... you are giving the responsibilities to. Performance agreements are done like that. You sit down with a person, look the person in the eye and say, “This is what you are expected to do. Do you agree that you will indeed perform in terms of this performance agreement?”



Now, you needed that sit-down with the President, and this sit- down has happened and it was able to happen, particularly when we went to Level 1 in September. We are quite happy that you are happy that we are concluding these performance agreements long before our five-year term is up. Our five-year term, Mr Malatsi,



will be up in 2024. It is in this first year, notwithstanding COVID-19 and notwithstanding the difficulties that we have had as a country, that we are concluding these performance agreements ... signing tomorrow. Thank you very much.



Ms B MALULEKE: Thank you, Chairperson. I will be posing my question to the hon Minister from the virtual platform. Hon Minister, it is true that COVID-19 has had a negative impact, not only on our country but on the whole world. Saving lives was the first priority of the President, hence the delay in signing the performance agreements with the executive. We, however, applaud the President on starting with the signing of the ministerial performance agreements. That is commendable. Hon Minister, do you think this will improve service delivery or performance of departments? Thank you, Chair.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon Maluleke. I truly believe that when there are responsibilities that are attached to each and every Minister ... when Ministers know that, from time to time, not only the department will be assessed but that they will also be assessed in keeping with the performance agreements, I believe that all of us will pull up our socks. And when all of us pull up our socks, I think the people who will benefit the most will be the people of South Africa.



People will benefit from improved service delivery, because there will be monitoring of the work that we do as Ministers by the relevant departments and by the President himself. By the way, we now have what we call “the programme of action week” every October in which we assess the targets each and every department has met, linked to the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, or the NTSF, and linked to the National Development Programme, the NDP.



Now, we won’t only be assessing the departments. We will even be assessing the performance of Ministers as that relates to their functions within these departments. There is no question that service delivery will indeed be the beneficiary for our people through this innovation. Thank you very much.



Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, I hope you won’t get warmed up again when I mention bank statements and President Cyril Ramaphosa in one sentence. Minister, the problem with government work is not so much about performance contracts but about the lack of central co-ordination, which allows Ministers to be a law unto themselves.



Mr Tito Mboweni can go and rubbish other nations and employ discredited journalists, and nothing will happen to him. Mr Pravin can chase away every black executive from state-owned enterprises



and he does that with impunity. Mr Mantashe can go bully the people of Xolobeni and nothing will happen to him. On what basis will these performance agreements be done if there is no central development from government? [Interjections.] Thank you.



Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, on a point of order ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes ... ? I hope the Minister got the question before I come to you and that uMama Ntlangwini is done. Yes? Thank you.



Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, the member has just indicated that Minister Pravin Gordhan has expelled all the black executives in the parastatals. She must come with that motion as a substantive motion because that is casting aspersions on the character of the Minister. Mrs Ntlangwini is saying that he is racist.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. The motion is sustained. We know that if we want to say such things they must come through a substantive motion, hon Ntlangwini. Let me warm those who switch on their microphones and speak that I will give them a warning. You do it again and you will be removed from the platform.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Ntlangwini, the parliamentary rules and regulations allow all of us to bring any matters of substance – any matters of wrongdoing – before this House for debate, so that, indeed, all of us, if we have done anything wrong, can be counselled by this honourable House.



Now, I can assure you that the colleagues you have made mention of


... Minister of Finance Tito Mboweni is indeed a wonderful colleague and a wonderful Minister, who is doing wonderful work under difficult circumstances. Minister Pravin Gordhan is a good Minister who has done, under difficult circumstances, a turnaround of many of our public entities where money was just being looted left, right and centre. You have a Minister that has then been able to confront the looting of public resources in public entities. UBaba Mantashe is coming up with even better mechanisms to ensure energy security in our country. You will have more – and other – independent energy producers being able to come onto the grid and give us more energy so that we don’t have blackouts from time to time.



Now, it is very unfortunate that you can’t see these things, hon Ntlangwini. You can’t. You just see anything that is negative.

These are colleagues that have done everything to ensure that our



country is counted amongst the best in the world, notwithstanding the difficulties we are faced with. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, Minister. The last follow-up question ... [Interjections.]



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order, hon Ntlangwini?



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon ... Really; the Minister didn’t even attempt to answer what I asked him.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. So what you have ...



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Maybe he didn’t understand it, or maybe I should repeat it, but he didn’t even attempt ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ntlangwini, I am not going to allow that. You know the drill. Mr Nxumalo? The last follow-up ...





Mnu M N NXUMALO: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo.



USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Siyathokoza, mhlonishwa. Ungaqhubeka.



Mnu M N NXUMALO: Ngingaqhubeka Sihlalo?



USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Qhuba, Baba.



Mnu M N NXUMALO: Ngiyathokoza kakhulu, ngithokoze kakhulu nakuNgqongqoshe ukuthi ekugcineni sesiyavumelana ukuthi lezivumelwano kufuneka zisayindwe. Uma ngabe isibophezelo senziwa uhulumeni kaZwelonke ethi evikini elilandelayo njengoba babesho bethi ngomhlaka 14 Julayi 2020 oNgqongqoshe bonke bazosayiniswa izivumelwano zomsebenzi abawenzayo [performance agreements] kodwa kuthi ezinyangeni ezintathu ezilandelayo kube yima ezofika futhi umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe uMvelase athi nakusasa bebazozisayina lezo zivumelwano zomsebenzi.



Siyafisa ukwazi njengeqembu le-IFP ukuthi zizobuyekezwa ngemuva kwesikhathi esingakanani lezo zivumelwano, nokuthi imisebenzi eyenziwa oNgqongqoshe izobhekwa kangakanani? Ngikholwa ukuthi



ukube zazikhona kusenesikhathi lezi zivumelwano mhlawumbe abanye babo oNgqongqoshe ngabe abasekho kuleli Khabinethi elikhona.



Nanokuthi Sihlalo uswinyo luzosetshenziswa isikhathi esingakanani uma selwenziwa lohlelo futhi kuzoqinisekiswa kanjani ukuthi lokhu okubhaliwe kuzivumelwano zomsebenzi abawenzayo oNgqongqoshe bayakwazi ukuphendula ngako. Nathi njengomphakathi sikwazi ukubona ukuthi lokhu okubhalwe ezivumelwaneni zomsebenzi abawenzayo yikho yini, ukuze sikwazi ukuzibuyekeza lezivumelwano njengembumba.

Ngiyathokoza, mhlonishwa Sihlalo.



USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Ngiyathokoza mhlonishwa. Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon Nxumalo. These agreements between the President and Ministers will come under review or assessment on a six-monthly basis. They will be reviewed every half year so that we are all on track, and, where there are difficulties, we are able to act on those difficulties. I think this is a very welcome development in the history of our country. It will allow not only you as Members of Parliament but the entirety of the nation to know what these agreements are that have been signed between the President and each and every Minister. You also asked when they will be made public. I have



already answered that. Indeed, there is a commitment that immediately after they have been signed they will be made public.



We are not starting to sign these performance agreements tomorrow. We have started already. We are concluding tomorrow. Tomorrow is the last day of the signings. Many of the Ministers have already signed, which shows our bona fides in taking forward the commitments that we have made, both as the ANC and also as the government of the ANC. Thank you very much, Chair.



Question 432:




AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Mkhaliphi, the target participation rate for the Community Work Programme, CWP, is 250 000. That is during the current financial year. A total of 80% of this number are women spread across all local municipalities. In response to the emerging challenges of gender-based violence, not just emerging factor, escalating challenges of gender-based violence, the programme has taken a decision to train 200 000 women participants in gender-based violence, GBV, to conduct advocacy work and provide guidance to GBV victims as to where they can access the necessary support or required help and council.



With regards to resources, there were no additional resources that were provided since the programme refocused. Existing participants useful work activities to incorporate GBV issues, it is common practice to align useful work activities to emerging needs within communities. Therefore, this is covered under the existing ... [Inaudible.] Thank you very much.



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, you always attend our committee meetings and you know very well that as the committee we have raised much concerned about this programme in the committee. We have been saying to the department that we are not happy about this programme and about the reporting about this programme, even the Minister herself told the committee that some of the things that are said are not taking place, especially in her municipality when she was told that there is a project that is taking place. Therefore, it is news to us that there are 200 000 in this programme that are for gender-based violence.



Therefore, Deputy Minister, can we get a breakdown of this 200 000 women in the Community Work Programme because we even said as a committee that the deputy director-general, DDG, that is responsible for this programme must come back on 27 November to give a full report. There are so many ghosts about the project,



let alone that we have not been told about any women who is participating in this programme.



Deputy Minister, let us not come here in Parliament and play about the motions of GBV. This is a very serious case. Therefore, me and you who always attend Cogta Portfolio Committee know that this is not true. Therefore, Deputy Minister, can you do the honours and give us the details about who are these women who are participating in this programme because there is none. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon Mkhaliphi. There is a huge difference in numbers. I’m suggesting 80% women participants, and hon Mkhaliphi suggests zero. [Laughter.] Now, between 200 000 and zero there is a huge discrepancy. I’m sure, hon Mkhaliphi, we can simply just not on the basis of anecdote, but evidence provide proof that there are certainly women participants. If you seek to contend the numbers I’m sure you would want to increase it from at least zero to at least a number that we can count.



As to whether or not we are concerned about the performance of the programme, we are, indeed, concerned about the performance of the



programme, and thus have resolved to revise the way in which the programme is implemented and we have been reporting to the committee in that regards. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Ms M G TLOU: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, what has the department done in strengthening the Community Work Programme, CWP, to ensure that it improves the quality of life for people in marginalised economic areas by way of providing work experience and enhancing dignity? I thank you, hon House Chair and hon Deputy Minister.





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon Tlou. As indicated earlier, the process of remodelling the Community Work Programme is currently underway with the intention of implementing at the beginning of the next financial year. Of course, that process on its own is complex and taking into account the number of nonprofit organisations, NPOs, involved in the process of implementation, but also the huge number of participants in the programme.



However, coming back to the point that hon Tlou is raising, the remodelling is intended to produce two primary objectives and these are complimentary. The first is to address the problems with



regards to accountability and control environment, particularly in so far as our relationship as a department with the implementing agents that are NPOs. This has contributed largely to the audit outcomes - the negative audit outcomes of the department.

Therefore, the remodelling will do that in the first instance. Secondly, it is intended to improve on the development outcomes of the programme. In this regards, we would look at, amongst others, increasing work opportunities in the programme and deploy more resources in areas of work opportunities, but also how these work opportunities impact on the quality of services that are provided by municipalities or in municipalities.



The last component will focus on training because it is our intention to ensure that there is an exit programme for those who participate so that they are able to gain the appropriate skills to be able to get other jobs and to be able to initiate their own enterprises. Thank you very much.



Ms G OPPERMAN: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, the CWP programme is riddled with corruption, mismanagement and millions are being syphoned with little value. The Minister herself publicly accepted that this programme has serious problems and undertook to revise and redesign it. Now, in the Northern Cape alone more than 18 implementation agents are being investigated by



the Hawks. Therefore, what steps are you taking to make sure that every rand is spent on the poor?





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon Opperman. I think that the issue of the challenges in the programme we have already spoken about, so I will get to the point of what steps are being taken. The first relates to a decision to withhold payment to implementing agents unless they are able to account for the resources that have been deployed to them. The second relates to ensuring that we audit and review the reports that are provided by the implementing agents. These I’m just making two examples of the steps taken. Therefore, the results have been that we have seen an improvement in the quality of reports received, but also the regularity of reports that we received on the programme.



Of course, a negative impact in this regard or unintended consequence has been that they are unable to pay their own employees and we have seen some of them protesting at our offices. However, our emphasis remains that those who are allocated public resources even as implementing agents should be held to account, and that is exactly what we are doing to improve the



accountability of the programme and its performance. Thank you very much.





Mnu X NGWEZI: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, Sekela Ngqongqoshe ...





... the centre for the study of violence and reconciliation partnered with Cogta and CWP in 2016, to pilot an antiviolence prevention and intervention programme in four CWP sites, that is: Tembisa, Ivory Park, Erasmus and Orange Farm. The programme’s objectives were to drive and inform policy development as well as strengthen antiviolence campaign within the CWP. The outcomes will be for the programme to be scaled up. Central to the programme were the CWP participants whose knowledge of the community’s networks with the community members and their own personal experience of violence as well as violence prevention would ensure that the interventions were tailored to each CWP sites.



Now, the question is, has your department incorporated CWP participants from the four sites: In Tembisa, Ivory Park, Erasmus and Orange Farm where the programme was test piloted in consultation with the centre for the study of violence and



reconciliation in 2016. If so, how were the CWP participants from these sites ... Thank you. [Time expired.]





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Baba uNgwezi uzothi ngi ...





... unfair. You do a lot of preamble and then ...





...uthatha isikhathi ekungesona esakho.





... all other members, remember how many minutes you have to make your follow-up question. Thank you. Hon Deputy Minister!





Mnu X NGWEZI: Besifuna ayiqonde uNgqongqoshe. Ayiqonde kahle. [Uhleko.]





AFFAIRS (Mr M F P Tau): Thank you very much, hon House Chair and hon Ngwezi. As indicated, the programme is currently underreview and has been remodelled and part of the review includes assessing



the effectiveness and efficacy of all the pilot initiatives that have been undertaken and whether we can upscale this. This programme that the hon Ngwezi is referring to constitutes part of the programmes that we are reviewing for purposes of implementation and or upscaling and it would constitute part of how we remodel the programme. At this stage, I cannot give a definitive answer as to which of the programmes including the one on violence would continue under the new implementation model.

Thank you very much.



Question 444:




AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, one of the key founding principles of the District Development Model is to do away with silo planning, budgeting and implementation across the three spheres of government, with the aim of achieving coherent service delivery and maximum development impact on people’s lives.



In order to deal with the challenges of poor integration and co- ordination, to strengthen the implementation of the District Development Model, government is implementing the following, and I will elaborate a bit later on each of these: firstly, the development of the One Plan; secondly, the establishment of District Development Model political intergovernmental teams for



each district; thirdly, the establishment of District Development Hubs; fourthly, the development of the regulations.



Regarding the One Plan, this is an intergovernmental plan setting out long term strategic framework to guide the investment and delivering in relation to a specific district or metropolitan space. The plan will express jointly agreed outcomes and commitments in an intergovernmental plan. So, in essence, what we talking about is not just a plan for the municipalities or a plan for the province in the district or the plan and programs of national in that district; it would be all parties coming together and partnering and making commitments on the One Plan.



Regarding the establishment of District Development Model political intergovernmental teams for each district, the President has appointed District Development Model political champions to ensure co-ordination between government departments and spheres within the district. We’ve also seen provinces have all assigned members of their executive councils to also complement the Ministers and Deputy Ministers as part of the political intergovernmental teams in the districts and these would focus, amongst others, on response to covid, response to gender-based violence and femicide, and economic recovery; as I said amongst others.



Regarding the establishment of District Development Hubs, two of these hubs have been launched and these are in the Waterberg District and OR Tambo District; with the intention to launch a hub in eThekwini in November. I should indicate that the province of KwaZulu-Natal has also undertaken an initiative to continue establishing hubs where these have not been initiated yet by national government. So, we should see these hubs as a mechanism for both co-ordination and implementation of the One Plan, amongst all the sphere of government.



And lastly, regarding the regulations, these regulations are intended to institutionalize the implementation of the District Development Model.



Section 47(1)(b) of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act mandates the Minister to develop regulations that should frame the co-ordination and alignment of development of priorities and objectives across the three sphere of government. The development of these regulations is currently underway and will culminate in the gazetting process within the current financial year. Thank you very much.



Ms B SWARTS: Hon Deputy Minister, has the Ministry of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, been in contact with



traditional leaders and other stakeholders with the objective of strengthening the implementation of the District Development Model, particularly in local communities? Thank you, House Chair.





AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, traditional leaders and stakeholders are an integral part of the development of, not just the One Plans, but partners in the process of implementation. In fact in many ways we describe the District Development Model as South Africa’s territorial governance model in terms of the new urban agenda.

Because it is not just about collaboration between spheres of government but it is also about creating social compacts and partnerships with other institutions including those of traditional leaders, business, civil society, women’s organizations, youth organizations, religious leaders and so on.



As would have witnessed in the processes of engagement and in the launches that we’ve currently undertaken, these stakeholders have been integral in the process of the launch of the District Development Model and in the process of developing the One Plan.



We have so far finalised all 52 profiles for the district and are working towards the One Plans for the respective districts as part of the process of implementation. Thank you very much.



Mr C BRINK: Deputy Minister, many aspects of this District Development Model remain shrouded in obscurity. For instance, question such as: Will a new municipality be bound to the One Plan agreed to by its predecessor, if the governing party is voted out of power? And how will District Hubs be financed, given that theirs is no more for such things anywhere?



There was meant to be this pilot phase in the three municipalities, and by pilot we understand the concept was going to be tested; but yet there’s been no report released to Parliament or the public outlining the successes and failures of the pilot phase so that we can better understand this before being rolled out.



The question is: Was the government’s intention to roll out the District Model regardless of whether the pilot phase was a success or a failure?





AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, in fact I’m trying to remember if it was Minister Mchunu that said maybe we should not use the word pilot, maybe we should say prototype; because when you talking about a prototype you not intending to review so that you don’t implement. [Laughter.]



Is it correct for all of government to co-ordinate their efforts in a particular jurisdiction? I don’t think there’s an argument against that.



So, we can’t be implementing something with the intention of not pursuing it, if in fact it pursues the mandate of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations in the country.



Our view is that we learn as we walk the path. We currently have been learning in the path of the three districts, we’re in the process of implementing the hubs, we now have two hubs and we’re launching the third hub in November.



Indeed it would be important for us to reprioritize the efforts of co-ordination and support to local government inline with the District Development Model. So, in many ways we not looking for new money, we looking at reprioritizing current resources deployed to municipal support and to intergovernmental relations so that you improve effectiveness and efficacy of intergovernmental relations. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: Hon House Chairperson, the fact of the matter is that municipalities’ functions and allocation of resources is still inconcieved. To change model and implement this so-called



District Development Model without dealing with the problems of the financing municipal services is misguided.



Majority of the municipalities do not have capacity to raise own revenue even if law giving them those powers. Our people do not work and, therefore, cannot pay for municipal services. Very few municipalities can raise revenue; mainly municipalities that were centre of apartheid economy.



Do you agree with the Minister of Finance when he said the current allocation of revenue raised nationally is fine and does not need to be changed and municipalities must continue to receive the 10% of the revenue raised nationally? I ...








Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: Ke botsisitse





... Does you as the Minister agree with the Minister of Finance when said the current allocation of revenue raised nationally is fine and does not need to be changed and municipalities must continue to receive the 10% of the revenue raised nationally?



Mr P M P MODISE: It’s “Do you agree” not “Does you agree”. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]



The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Modise, that’s a warning! You do it again, you are out of the platform. Continue, Deputy Minister.





AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, this has been raised for the second time as to what the Minister of Finance said yesterday and clearly our interpretation of his statement is not the same. At least my interpretation and understanding of the statement is that because local government does generate own revenue, a significant proportion of its revenue would come from own sources and complemented by national transfers.



Does it mean that the Minister by implication says that the model should not be engaged continuously? My interpretation is certainly that was not his intention.



So, the discussions – as I said earlier – between ourselves, National Treasury and other stakeholder are ongoing with regard to the optimal model of finance in local government. And in fact, this would be a continuous discussion because the day the



discussions stops, then we would have stopped thinking, because we should apply our minds all the time to how we finance all spheres of government. [Laughter.]



Is the District Development Model, therefore, ill-conceived because of that conversation? Certainly it is not. Thank you very much.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Minister, I’m one of those that have repeatedly been calling for the District Model to be implemented. But having said that, what I was calling for is to have a [Inaudible.] two-tier of a national and a district model, not a [Inaudible.] which appears to be something like a four-tier of government because I wanted a model like something like Canada where they have the national and have the district model and then you do [Inaudible.] and you will be saving a lot of money.



Now, Deputy Minister, the problem I have is that the Minister of Finance is talking about cutting on compensation to employees. He says the amount we spending is just not sustainable. Now, with the additional money that will be needed to get this district model off the ground and to be effective, surely it’s going to cost us a lot of money. And if that is the case, is there intention to implement the four-tier of government or is there an intention



later on to reduce it to a two-tier government and they remove the local government and provincial structure? Please give us some guidance on this. Thank you very much.





AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, the District Development Model is implemented inline with the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act, that provides for mechanisms of co-ordination and collaboration between the different spheres of government.



In terms of this Act – as I referred to earlier – the Minister of CoGTA is empowered to determine regulations that would govern intergovernmental relations.



I’m saying this to emphasize, hon Shaik Emam, that it is not the intention to create a second, third or fourth-tier or sphere of government. It is a mechanism of co-ordination inline with the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act and our mandate, at least, as a department of co-operative governance.



The debate around other spheres of government, reducing them, increasing them, is a separate debate from this debate or this process of implementing the District Development Model. Thank you very much, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.





O ka nwa meetse. Letšatši la gago mamohla e sa le le letelele.



Question 440:


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is part of NatJoints, a technical committee that gives technical support to the National Coronavirus Command Council which is chaired by the President. Indeed, this enabled it to contribute to the monitoring of the implementation by government departments across the different clusters. So our sitting on that technical committee allows us to do this monitoring of the contributions by all departments to the fight against COVID-19.



The department has issued its first quarter COVID-19 monitoring report. The second quarter report is being processed. These reports speak to how we have been doing in the fight against COVID-19: what has been the efficacy of our interventions, as government, as civil society, as the business community – all of us working together. These reports try to synthesize the extent to which our joint efforts have assisted us in fighting COVID-19.



These quarterly reports will culminate in the publication of a consolidated country report, which will document our experience in dealing with the pandemic, including how we have dealt with screening and testing, quarantine issues and personal protective equipment, PPE, in health-related matters; and also in terms of the non-health measures: how as a country we have been able to adhere to the measures of wearing masks, social distancing and washing our hands or sanitising regularly. So we will produce that report.



The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, continues to monitor the implementation of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, which was severely affected by COVID-

19. It is our job to see the extent to which the targets that are in the MTSF are being met by various departments. The DPME co- ordinated the review of the annual performance plans, APPs, of the national and provincial departments to take into account the budget adjustments that were introduced by the Minister of Finance in June 2020. The revised APPs also included new COVID-19- pandemic-related targets. That speaks to what our role has been in monitoring the work around COVID-19.



The second part of the question posed by the hon Singh asks whether we had the capacity to do all the things that we were



expected to do. The department used existing human resource capacity and created multidisciplinary project teams to perform the monitoring of the measures introduced. The department has also established partnerships with various institutions and experts within and outside government especially in the development of the integrated country report. We are speaking to academics, we are speaking to health experts like Professor Karim, and indeed we are also speaking to institutions like Statistics SA and research engines like the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, the CSIR, and the Human Sciences Research Council, the HSRC. This is so that, indeed, when we produce the report on what we have done as a country, this report also has inputs from all actors in the South African community. Thank you, Chair.



Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, and thank you, hon Minister, for the response. Mr Minister, my concern resides with the issue of whether the department itself, which was created many, many years ago, has the internal capacity to critically analyse these reports that come through and really see whether the services that have been provided to society are efficient.



Now, I’m saying this, hon Minister, with a background of having been involved with the birth of this particular department. My view is that we are not seeing enough of the fruits of the



department’s mandate to generally monitor other national departments. You find that the annual performance plans of many national departments show that the performance targets were not met, yet the budgets that were allocated to these items have been spent. So, generally, I want to know, in connection with this COVID-19 report, if it is just a collection of reports that have been collated or if there is critical analysis. Also, in the meetings that you’ve had, have the vulnerable areas of our society

– such as the rural areas and the issues that are in those areas that have been identified as needing improvement – been addressed to better serve these communities? Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, Mr Singh.



Just some advice: The service officers in the House must not come to the camera.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: The hon Singh is correct. We have to improve our capacity as the department that oversees the work of the whole of government. We are, indeed, improving this capacity. One of the things that we are doing is to ensure that we have the capacity to monitor even the lowest level of government performance, something that Deputy Minister Tau has spoken about: district level. We are busy now ensuring that our institutional



structure takes into account the capacities that we need to monitor at even that level.



Of course, you would know, hon Singh, that there were many critical positions that we had not filled at the time we spoke to the committee. We have indeed filled those capacities and positions now in the department. In fact, those responsibilities were quite important responsibilities because, amongst other things, they included a number of the department’s posts that were not filled around the areas of monitoring and public monitoring.

So, we are quite confident that with improvement in the organogram and in the filling of posts in the department, we will be able to do this work. You then asked about another important area: whether are we able to collect information and analyse it. Indeed, that is the capacity that we have been able to meet now at the level of the highest civil servants in the administration.



But we are also not working alone. We are working together with those who will assist us to enhance this capacity of reading these reports and understanding the difficulties in our communities. We are working with Statistics SA. Indeed, there are a number of professionals within our state bodies. Also, as we have said, we are working very closely with other bodies that might not necessarily reside within government, so that when we produce



reports – as the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation


– they are indeed validated by very competent and well-resourced bodies around research in our country.



Of course, though, we agree with you. Whilst we have filled a number of positions, we can still do more with also getting the necessary capacity within the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation beyond the capacity that we have at this point in time. Thank you very much.



Ms M T KIBI: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, the COVID-19 outbreak revealed shortages in basic service delivery, particularly in remote areas where people did not have access to water and proper sanitation in order to be in line with COVID-19 regulations. Is the department conducting continual monitoring and evaluation assessments in areas that had water shortages or which were affected by droughts – for example, in parts of the Eastern Cape and the Northern Cape – to ensure basic service delivery so that proper sanitation relative to COVID-19 regulations could be followed especially in schools?



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: The point is well made, hon member. The reality is that during this pandemic – even now – there are many areas where there has been good performance that we



should be proud of. There are many areas that, ordinarily, would not have had water. In using this pandemic, government was able to deliver such important resources to people who otherwise would not have had them.



I think the challenge will be how we sustain this provision in the areas where we came in as government as a result of the pandemic. This is a point that has been made by many of our frontline workers and frontline monitors. We do have frontline monitors, as the department, in the same way as we have people who work with departments throughout government at the lowest level who we call “outcome facilitators”. All these frontline workers are saying to us, as the department and government as a whole, that we sustain these benefits that we have been able to provide under these difficult conditions. One of those things was the provision of water. Of course, we could have done better but we did the best we could by getting water to areas that did not have water, because we needed to get water to these areas to deal with this pandemic. Our colleagues at the frontline are saying: Let’s not now remove the mechanism we have employed in ensuring that people have access to water.



There is another area that we can speak to. There are many government sites that we zero-rated and ensured that people,



including all our learners – those at university and everywhere else – had access to government’s websites. Many of our people are saying that, when COVID-19 is done and dusted, we should continue with the zero-rating of these websites and engines of knowledge.

This is a benefit that has accrued because of COVID-19. Thank you.



Mrs S M MOKGOTHO: Thank you, Chairperson. At the beginning of the pandemic we saw you co-ordinating and convening government briefings on the pandemic. What lessons have you drawn from this experienced collaborative approach to tackling problems, and how will you use these lessons in tackling other pressing problems in this country, such as the resolution of the land question, the fight to combat gender-based violence and the elimination of gangsterism in the in the Western Cape? Thank you, Chairperson.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, what we have learnt from COVID-19 is that when we work collaboratively, when we work together, there is absolutely nothing that can beat us. You are correct, hon Mokgotho, in that we were able to hold regular briefings and keep the nation informed, even through the President, because we also created a structure, and that structure was called the National Coronavirus Command Council. That structure did not only find resonance at a national level but also at provincial levels – provincial coronavirus co-ordinating



councils or command councils – and district levels. It is that structure that made us respond in the manner we did. With this there are lessons that all of us should agree we must take forward.



There was collaborative work, not only at a national level, but there was also continual collaborative work among national, provincial and local structures and general collaboration, because, through the President, we were also able to bring together partners to combat the coronavirus from business, from civil society, from labour and from everybody from every walk of life.



So, I agree that by using these structures we have created we can do better. We are seeing the structures that will drive the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan following from the lessons we have learned from these structures we have created to fight the pandemic. So, I agree with you in that even with the other matters that you have raised that, indeed, if we could follow this collaboration and structures that we created – structures that worked in collaboration with all spheres of government and all community structures – we would do far, far better in attending to the issues that you have raised including land dispossession, gender-based violence and any other



difficulties and challenges that the country is faced with. It is when we work together that we can be victorious in fighting all the difficulties that our country is faced with.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The last follow-up question will come from hon Minister Swart.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair, for the promotion.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Minister in religion.



Mr S N SWART: Yes, thank you. [Laughter.] I appreciate that as well. I pose this as a Minister ... to the Minister. Minister, thank you for your response. As part of your oversight, monitoring and evaluation of COVID-19, I would also like to ask you about health issues in general.



While every life lost is a tragedy – and, as we know, as of today there are over 19 100 people who have died of COVID-19-related sicknesses – there are many people who have passed away through co-morbidities. Against that background, hon Minister, more than

200 000 people died during this lockdown period from other diseases, not COVID-19-related, such as chronic heart disease, HIV and Aids and TB. Many of these diseases are curable, yet patients



could not access treatment or could not take medication owing to the hard lockdown. I’m sure you are aware of this. Don’t you agree, Minister, that this is also – or is even a far greater – tragedy? Any further lockdown could have an impact on the lives of people who can be cured but cannot access medication. Shouldn’t a hard lockdown – which we all initially agreed to – be avoided at all costs? Also, will that be part of your report and evaluation? Thank you, Deputy Minister. Oh, “Minister”. My apologies.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, “Minister”.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Swart, I think, as you give us figures, we must also agree that, without the measures we put in place, indeed, we could have had more deaths ... if we didn’t put those measures in place. It is through those measures that, out of the 719 000 people who have been infected, we have seen a recovery of over 648 000 people. Over 90% recovered. That also shows the resilience of our health system. We must thank all our nurses, our doctors, our assistant nurses and all our health professionals for ensuring, through their commitment and dedication, that we had a huge 90% recovery rate.



At the peak of the pandemic, we had 12 000, 13 000 infections per day. We should be proud, hon Swart, that we have now, at this



time, reduced the daily infection rate to between 1 500 and 2 000 infections. So, these are things that all of us should be proud of. That doesn’t mean that we must then lose sight of the other diseases that are there. Indeed, as we give all that we can to combating this deadly disease, there are other diseases out there. I know for a fact that the Department of Health is doing everything it can so that we also give these diseases and people who suffer from other diseases outside of this the necessary health attention they need. Thank you very much.



Question 446:




AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair and hon Brink, the Gauteng provincial executive submitted a notice on the dissolution of the City of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipal Council which provided reasons and clear motivation for the intervention for the City of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality in terms of section 139(1)(c) of the Constitution.



In line with the approval requirements prescribed in section 139(3) of the Constitution, the Minister concurred with the decision of the Gauteng provincial executive to intervene in the City of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality based on the state of the city.



Key to the decision to concur with the dissolution of the Tshwane council were the interests of the people of Tshwane. There was already a collapse in governance council failing to sit for prolonged periods, a threat to the budget and Integrated Development Planning, IDP, processes being derailed and thus directly affecting the provision of services for the people of Tshwane.



The department is currently studying the current judgement of the Supreme Court of Appeal and awaiting the decisions or outcome of the Constitutional Court judgement. Thank you very much.



Mr C BRINK: House Chair, as the Deputy Minister rightly says that the Minister does have a responsibility to apply her mind when a province makes a decision to disband a council which the Constitution describes can only happen in extraordinary circumstances. Now the extraordinary thing about Tshwane when it was disbanded is that it had no arrear Eskom or Rand Water debt and it had no audit disclaimers, in fact, it had a voluntary financial recovery plan in place that saw a too great credit upgrade in that city.



The question is: Compared to a municipality in the same province like Emfuleni with audit disclaimers, going bust and bankrupt,



owing Eskom money, assets being attached ... Tshwane, in fact, looked much better - objectively speaking. But aside from that, the SA Local Government Association, Salga, has told us that Gauteng failed to consult even them about the decision to dissolve. They have said it factually and there hasn’t been no clear denial of that allegation.



In light of this, Deputy Minister, did the Minister not fail in her obligation to apply her mind when she acquiesced to this decision to disband the council, especially in light of these scathing judgements given by both the High Court and the Supreme Court of Appeal? Thank you.





AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair and hon Brink, I do think that there is a need to have a much closer reading of the judgement and the reason for the judgement but I am sure it is not my duty to school you on matters of reviewing the actual judgement.



Just to get to the point, was it important for government to make an intervention as done by the provincial government of Gauteng in a metropolitan municipality where governance had collapsed and in the capital city of the Republic? It certainly was. At least to the extent that the Minister applies their mind and make decisions



on the issues at hand. [Interjections.] The Minister applied her mind and was objective.



Emfuleni is currently under 139(1)(b) which is an intervention. As government we have a duty to apply our minds to the application that we receive from the municipality based on the evidence on the ground, and the evidence at that point suggested that it would be important for an intervention to be put in place. Thank you very much.



Ms P P XABA-NTSHABA: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Deputy Minister, what support is the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, giving to the current administration in ensuring provision of services to the people of Tshwane while they are waiting the Constitutional Court outcome? Thank you very much, Chairperson and Deputy Minister.





AFFAIRS: Thank you very much for hon Xaba-Ntshaba’s indulgence. I just want to make one point: The court actually made reference to political parties that walked out of council meetings. Now, if somebody was representing a political party that is consistent in the decisions that it wants to make, the hon Brink would acknowledge that even after the High Court’s decision and during



the appeal in the City of Johannesburg the DA staged walkouts. So, read the judgement and look at your own party and its own consistency in the application that it made to court. However, I was not responding to the hon Brink I was responding to the hon Xaba-Ntshaba.



Hon Xaba-ntshaba, the point about support has always been, as I indicated earlier, that we provide direct support to the provincial government as it undertakes its executive obligations and this would include constant monitoring engagement to the provincial government but also the availing of resources as and when these are required in the process of implementation.



I will come back and still talk about the consistency of the DA as it walks out of the City of Johannesburg consistently. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.





Mohl Brink, ka kgopelo hle. Tswalela.





The next question will be asked by R N Komane.



Ms A M SIWISA: House Chairperson, the question will be taken by me.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Can you please say your name for the record?



Ms A M SIWISA: Hon Mathapelo Siwisa.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, Mma.



Ms A M SIWISA: The City of Tshwane and perhaps to an extent, the Nelson Mandela Metro has been limping from one governance disaster to another. The fact that there is no party with a clear majority in this council plays a huge role in this instability. Excluding those, what other factors have you found to have contributed to the instability of these municipalities and what specific action have you taken to restore some sense of normalcy as service delivery to these municipalities and what are you going to do in future for other municipalities to ensure that such things do not happen in those municipalities? Thank you, Chair.





AFFAIRS: Hon Chair Person, it must be telling when a political party that put you into office says to you that you have gone from



one governance crisis to another, hon Brink. It must be actually telling of their own evaluation of your performance in government in the metropolitan municipalities being referred to.



What factors contributed to the challenges in the respective municipalities? Governance was a particularly important issue. Secondly, it related to processes of decision making and in certain instances irregularities as experienced in the respective municipalities and service delivery challenges.



In terms of what is being done, as I indicated in an earlier response, we are working very closely with National Treasury on all matters related to interventions in municipalities and ensuring that these are successful. With regards to Nelson Mandela Bay in particular, we have been in constant engagements with the provincial government about what needs to be done to restore normalcy to governance and it still remains the reality that as we deal with Nelson Mandela Bay we also need to ensure that governance is restored and that the tension that sometimes undermines the ability of council to make decisions is overcome.

Thank you very much.



Mr X NGWEZI: House Chairperson, to the hon Deputy Minister, the national department supported the Gauteng Provincial Government’s



decision to dissolve the municipal council of the City of Tshwane besides the fact that the North Gauteng High Court specifically heard that the walking out of members during the council meetings often “rendered the city powerless”. What future steps will the Deputy Minister and the department take to ensure the functionality of the city so that such hostages prevent situations like that? Thank you, Chair.





AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, just for clarifying for the record, the Minister accented to section 139(1)(c) in the City of Tshwane prior to the High Court’s decision. The High Court’s decision therefore came after and related to the decision that was made to dissolve the City of Tshwane. Therefore, it could not have been that we disregarded the High Court’s decision.



The second point is what steps do we need to take. Certainly I believe that we need to apply our minds collectively as this Parliament and the executive on how we enable governance to continue even in environments of coalition governments. The evidence to date has suggested that we confront significant challenges as a result of coalition governments particularly as we have experienced in the past few years. We need to ensure that as we acknowledge that coalitions happen and will continue to happen,



how do we not collapse governance in that process as is being done by the DA in Johannesburg. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, Deputy Minister. Before we adjourn I would like to thank all the members of the executive who responded to questions today and making our day a success. Thank you for availing yourselves in the Chamber to do your work.



The time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. Thank you very much. The House is adjourned.



The House adjourned at 17:01.



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