Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 04 Nov 2020


No summary available.






Watch the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ygdcl9_1to


The House met at 15:01.



The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.






Question 459:




House Chairperson, hon members, hon Swart, indeed, the Minister was informed by the MECs of the Free State and the Northern Cape provinces about the veld fires that have befallen farmers in the two provinces in the third week of October 2020, which had a dire impact on farmers. The Minister is also aware of the collaboration between the provincial governments and farmer organisations to assist affected farmers in addressing the natural disasters.



The two provinces undertook an assessment on the affected areas, in order to ascertain the extend of the damage and how they could assist those who are affected.



In the Northern Cape province, the veld fires affected the Frances Baard district, Warrenton and the north of Koopmansfontein areas. The provincial and district disaster management centres intervened immediately, bringing the fires under control. Approximately 43 950 hectares were affected by this fire. The provincial Department of Agriculture has requested us to utilise, in the meantime, the Comprehensive Agricultural Support funds and work closely with organised agriculture formations to support farmers with fodder for feeding their animals.



In the Free State province, the veld fires affected the Lejweleputswa District in the Tokologo and Tswelopele Local Municipalities, and linked to the surrounding areas of Boshof, Hertzogville, Hoopstad, Bultfontein and Dealesville, burning down about 100 000 hectares.



The provincial executive council last week took a resolution in which the MECs of Agriculture and Finance have been tasked to find resources, in order to assist the farmers.



The extend of the damage in the present calculation is about R15 million. I have been informed that the province will request that the area affected by the veld fires be declared a disaster area, in line with the Disaster Management Act 57 of 2002, in support of declaration efforts by the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, via the provincial disaster centre.



Government will continue to work with the disaster manager centres in all spheres of government, to strengthen their awareness of natural disasters as well as the early warning system.



So, in short, we are intervening and assisting the farmers that are affected. Thank you very much.



Mr S N SWART: Hon Chair, hon Minister, we do wish to express our gratitude to farmers, farm workers and businesses like groceries stores that continue to ensure food security, particularly during the hard lockdown. They have done this, despite what we have now seen – the tragic widespread fires in the Free State and the Northern Cape, as it has been indicated by the Minister.



We are grateful for the intervention from the provincial governments and the agriculture support funds. We are however



deeply concerned about the allegations that some of these fires were lit on purpose and share the sentiments of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and the Chairperson, hon Mandela, who expressed disbelief as to why anyone would wish to cause such widespread destruction.



We understand that a number of people have been arrested on charges, including public violence, malicious damage and arson. It is deplorable, hon Minister, and I am sure you would agree, that members of this House have called for the burning of farms. They should also be arrested.



Minister, we appreciate what you have said today and we would ask you just to maybe refer, and maybe put more pressure on the Minister of Police to finalise investigations of these allegations. We also support your call for the declaration of a disaster in these particular areas. I thank you.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, on a point of order: Did I hear hon Swart saying members of this House must be arrested?








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): I think he said that there are members of this House who called for the burning of the farms. [Interjections.] Those members must be arrested. I’m not sure if

... He did not specify and I am not going to force him to specify. [Interjections.]



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, there are criminal charges. [Interjections.] There are criminal charges, but I will not mention any names because ... [Interjections.]



Ms E N NTLANGWINI Hon House Chair, on point of order: I think that the member who has just spoken knows what to do. He has been in those seats since 1994 and maybe prior. So, he knows what to do and he knows the Rules of Parliament. If he says that there are Members of Parliament that have called for the burning of farms, he must stop being irresponsible by raising things like this, and he must mention the names of the members in the House through a substantive motion.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Let me just caution everyone that, if you are making allegations regarding members of this House, we all know what should be done. We need that substantive motion. The hon member says that he is not going to



mention names, but the member is making allegations about members and therefore should withdraw that part.



Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, there are criminal charges laid against a member of this House and that is in the public domain. I did not mention anyone because I understand the Rule that you need to bring a substantive motion. It is common knowledge that there is a criminal charges laid against a particular member, but I said, who have called for the ... [Interjections.]



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: He must withdraw! He must withdraw!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Ntlangwini, you are out of order. I am addressing your point of order and you interfere.



Mr S N SWART: Chair, on your ruling, I am prepared to withdraw. You did make a ruling and I respect that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): So, the statement is withdrawn.



Mr W M THRING: Chair, on a point of order: I think that certainly members of the House who continue to interject while you are passing your ruling need to be called to order and if they



continue to do that, they must actually be asked to leave the House. I think that it is unacceptable that, while you are bringing order to the House and passing your ruling, we have members who feel that they can just interject at will, as if they have power over the House ... [Interjections.] ... when they are not.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member, your concern is noted.





Hon House Chair, I think what hon Swart did was really to advise more than to ask a question. He advised that we talk to the Minister of Police to ensure that the investigations and the arrest of those who are affected are speeded up. Thank you very much.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Hon House Chair, I am going to take the question on behalf of hon Matiase. It is a fact that the apartheid government that decided on the process of stealing black people’s land did make a significant state investment into white farmers and gave subsidies. This investment has never been reciprocated by farmers, not in the way they treat their workers and not in the way they view the post-1994 government. If we provide any



assistance to these farms and should there be any government intervention in this sector, it must be conditional, with a clearly identified target of transformation on these farms, as well as a clear proof of good relationships with workers. Thank you very much.





Hon Montwedi who is taking the question for hon Matiase, having noted what you have raised, as it stands, there are no such conditions in terms of the Disaster Management Act that must be followed in assisting those who have been affected by the disaster. Thank you.





Ink R N CEBEKHULU: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo weNdlu, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe cishe okuningi bengithi ngizokubuza kuphendulekile ukungenelela kuMnyango kaCogta ezinhlelweni zokusiza laphaya. Mhlawumbe uma umuntu elandela ngabe uMnyango uzibophezele ekutheni abalimi laba uzobalekelela ngokuthi bathengelwe enye imfuyo noma bazonikezwa nje imali ukuthi babone ukuthi abathenga ini ukuze bakwazi ukuvuselela amapulazi abo. Ngiyathokoza.





KWEZINDAWO ZASEMAKHAYA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu ehloniphekile,



ngibonge nakuNkosi uCebekhulu ngombuzo wakhe. Uma senza uhlelo lokulekelela abalimi, ikakhulukazi ngingathi nje abalimi kuphela noma yibaphi labo abasuke behlaselwe yinhlekelele. Kunemigudu elandelwayo yokubhekisisa ukuthi ngabe yiziphi izimfuno ezidingekayo ngaleso sikhathi. Kuya ngokuthi ikakhulukazi uMnyango wesiFundazwe uma ukhulumisana nabalimi yikuphi abathi kudingeke basizwe ngako ngaleso sikhathi, kungaba yimfuyo, kungaba ukudla kwemfuyo, kungaba abasebenzi abasebenza emapulazini abalinyalelwe yilokho abalinyalelwe kona. Kube khona ukusiza njalo njalo.



Isinqumo salokho asithathwa nguMnyango, kuya ngokuxoxisana nalaba abathintekile nanokuthi umthetho wezenhlekelele yikuphi okuvumelayo, yikuphi ongakwazi ukukuvumela. Mangibonge Sihlalo.



Ms T BREEDT: Hon House Chair, Minister, commercial as well as emergent farmers in these areas had suffered severe losses prior to the fires, due to the prolonged drought. We welcome the provincial as well as the national departments that have intervened and the money that will be made available. These farmers will not be able to recover from the millions of rands of damage caused by these fires on their own and without government aid.



The sector is also one of the greatest contributors to employment, amidst the recession and has shown a positive curve. It is also one of the few sectors that is still showing an economic growth within this pandemic.



I am however of the view, Minister, that the department is going to alienate certain farming communities by merely stating that assistance goes to certain people and that the rest should seek assistance from the Land Bank or from personal insurance policies. I therefore ask you, to whom will these funds that government is availing go? Will our commercial farmers once again be left to fend for themselves or will you be clear that, for food security and for South Africa, the department will also support commercial farmers with the funds available? I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Before the Minister responds, I am going to ask everybody who asks follow-up questions to read Rule 142 fully because you have minutes in which to ask your questions. The preambles are too long and then you find your time having expired without a question being asked. So, please read Rule 142 and plan your questions accordingly, checking the time.





House Chairperson, hon Breedt, I must say on the insinuation that government becomes prescriptive or excludes others on matters of disaster, I don’t think it is true. Even on the kind of disaster that have befallen a number of provinces in terms of drought, there was no such exclusion. I was actually one of those who went with the Deputy President to the Northern Cape where we met with farmers, both small and big, black and white, women and men and there were no such exclusions of the conditions. Therefore, it still stands that those farmers who have been affected, no matter if they are small or big, they will be assisted in terms of the disaster fund. Thank you.



Question 460:


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Good afternoon, hon Chair and hon members. The question has to do with structural reforms. In order to answer the question, we must first deal conceptually with why structural reforms are necessary. The answer to that question is found in our need to identify the structural binding constraints to economic growth and development. What we have tried to summarise in the paper “Towards an Economic Strategy for South Africa” is the imperative look at those things which are impeding economic reforms.



Let me give you a few examples. Firstly, our delay in issuing spectrum had a major impact on our communications ability. So the release of spectrum has therefore become an urgent matter to which government is attending because it will enable both businesses and individuals to communicate and do business with ease.



Secondly, let me give you as another example the clog up at our ports and harbours. Part of structural reform must mean that we must unlock the binding constraints at our ports and harbours to make it easy for goods to flow into and out of South Africa.



What this means, amongst other things, is that we must attend to those things which are a difficulty for us – the way Portnet is structured, for example – so that the tariff structure is also changed and improved. As I have said, this allows us to ease the flow of business goods in and out of the country at a price that is achievable.



We also make reference to the need to modernise the whole networked industry set of issues to make sure that we can really make things move quicker in the economy, make private enterprise function properly, and make it possible for private enterprise to access finance and be in a position to go on with their businesses.



We talk about lowering the barriers to entry in businesses. This is a major structural issue that we must confront and deal with. We talk about supporting labour-intensive industries such as tourism and agriculture, which are very key in getting the economy to function very well. We talk about the need to break the barriers to the entry into business that excludes the previously excluded people in the economy. We talk about the building of an education and skills system that is suited to the current economy in which we work. We are talking about the much-talked-about beneficiation of raw materials in our country as part of the process of economic development.



At the centre of all of this – for us to be able to proceed with the programmes that we want – is the removal of all these barriers to entry. These barriers have a race and class dimension to them. I thank you very much, madam Chair.



Ms M D MABILETSA: Minister, in your speech, you table tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. You mentioned an initiative called Operation Vulindlela, led by deputy Minister Masondo, which you said is a critical co-ordination tool to unlock and fasttrack the implementation of the structural economic reform agenda. You also said that this initiative will draw energy and expertise and capacity building. [Interjections.]



How will Operation Vulindlela work in practice, given the current fiscal and capacity challenges in the public service? What will be the relationship, if any, between Operation Vulindlela and the district development model? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, hon Mabiletsa, for the question. Government is a very big thing. You will find many blockages in government.



Now, we must understand that structural reforms are not just a matter of the government; they are a matter of the government working together with labour, private enterprise and community organisations and co-operatives. Structural reforms involve all economic agents working in tandem to achieve the common objective that is economic growth, employment and redistribution.



So, we conceptualise idea of Operation Vulindlela – which means Operation Open the Way - to unblock the blockages which might be there in government but also in the private sector.



That is why I asked Deputy Minister Dr Masondo to lead the process of co-ordinating co-operation within government departments, talking with the private sector, with the trade union movement and all other relevant parties so that we identify all these blockages



and then unblock them which will allow us to unleash the economic energy needed for our country.



He has already established a unit. It is not yet at its full capacity, but Dr Sean Phillips is there. They are going to start co-ordinating everything – speaking to all government departments, and speaking to the private sector, as I mentioned – to get things moving.



Fortunately, along the way, the President announced the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan. So Operation Vulindlela is going to work hand in glove with The Presidency to unlock all these blockages that may be there.



The reason The Presidency must come into the picture is because the President has an overarching role and he can help us in unblocking the blockages that might exist. It is very important that The Presidency is involved to support and work with Operation Vulindlela in this process.



This is a very important initiative that can enable working together in order to drive the economic recovery and development programme in our society. At the centre of it is unblocking what I



call the structural impediments or binding constraints in the economy. Thank you very much, madam Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Just a reminder to members of the executive who will be responding to questions: Although the presiding officer can use her own discretion to ensure that the answer is heard by everybody and allow you to continue, please respect that you have two minutes to respond to supplementary questions. Thank you.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Thank you, Minister, for the answer that you have given. Minister, over the last few years, you made it absolutely clear that part of the economic reform agenda is getting state-owned entities under control and stopping the endless bailouts. Just as recently as in last year’s Budget Speech you said that South African Airways, SAA, is unlikely to ever generate sufficient cash to keep flying in its current form, and that we must liberate the fiscus from the Sword of Damocles. Those were your words. In the earlier 2019 Main Budget Speech you said that the bailouts have to stop. No more! Again, your own words.



So, my simple question is, do you think that your bailout of R10,5 billion for South African Airways announced last week in your medium-term Budget is consistent with the case that you have



made over the last few years, and with the government’s economic reform agenda? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, hon Hill-Lewis for that question. The issue of South African Airways is a very difficult one, both politically and financially, and we have sought to approach the matter in a balanced way.



I refute the argument that the R10,5 billion that has been allocated in the second Appropriations Adjustment Bill is a bailout. It is not a bailout. If you go into the components of the R10,5 billion, you will notice that it is meant for the business rescue practitioners’ plan for the restructuring of the airline.

It is not the same old South African Airways. So it is not a bailout at all. That is the first point.



The second point is this government has a number of state-owned enterprises and, unless we do something different with them, we have an obligation to ensure that the they keep running, but that they do not suck up public finances, which are there.



So, in my view, we do need a thorough conversation about the restructuring of state-owned enterprises. We should keep those which are functional and get rid of those that are not functional



because they can be a drain on the economy and we do not want that. We want them to contribute towards economic success and growth in our economy. Thank you very much.



Ms N V MENTE: Last year, hon Minister, you published a paper entitled “Economic Transformation, Inclusive Growth and Competitiveness: Towards an Economic Strategy for South Africa”. That paper presented exactly the Washington-sponsored ideas of privatisation and austerity measures.



Was the paper adopted by Cabinet? If yes, when was that?



Regarding the structural reforms you spoke about during the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement ... Are they in any way related to what you presented in the Treasury paper? And if they are related, can you tell us about any success stories here in South Africa that show that the documents you have presented are some form of a resolution to our economic pressures? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, hon Mente for the supplementary question.



The first part, has Cabinet adopted the document towards an economic strategy. The answer is, yes. I can’t remember the date



on which it was adopted. I will have to go to the Cabinet minutes to find that. We can provide that, additionally.



Secondly, the issue of whether this is a Washington-consensus sponsored approach, is in the eye of the beholder. Hon Mente might have her own approach, but she can't really disagree with us when we say that we need to reform the networked industries, that we need to expand and modernise the Durban harbour, that we need to construct other small harbours around South Africa, and that we must get heavy freight off from the roads and onto the railways.

This presupposes us fixing the railways as well. She cannot disagree that we must release spectrum for the information and communications technology and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. She should and definitely cannot disagree that we need to make sure that our transport and logistics system functions very well in the country.



It’s got nothing to do with Washington. This is basic macro- economic logic. We should help to unleash the economy and remove these structural impediments that I spoke about. Thank you very much.



Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, most of the blockages and difficulties obstructing the economic activity and investments in South Africa are caused by failed policies and policy uncertainty.



The question, Minister, is, whilst there have been many plans and projects such as, for instance, Back-to-Basics – which was actually also aimed at addressing a lot of the shortcomings in getting our municipalities working – will these operations and projects to get structural reforms going work in an environment in which there are failed policies such as expropriation without compensation, and other policy directions which have not worked anywhere else in the world?



And Minister, is it not then so that the biggest structural reform needed in this country is a new government and the ANC out of government? I thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Well, I am the Minister of Finance. My principal duties really don’t involve forcible change of government or anything like that? What I know is that the ANC was elected by the majority of South Africans. Therefore, the majority of South Africans have confidence in the African National Congress. So, we will continue to implement the policies of the African National Congress. If the Freedom Front Plus wants to be



the government, then they must go and convince the electorate and win the votes. As it stands now, they have to live with the fact that the African National Congress is the majority party in Parliament and, by that very fact, ipso facto, they are the government of the day.



Now, I agree that there are many structural impediments that we must deal with. Let’s focus on those together. I heard the last questions relating to farmers. In my view, we continue to support both black and white farmers, commercial and non-commercial farmers. It is our duty as government to support agriculture and get things going. Whatever there are impediments to agriculture, manufacturing and mining, we must deal with those in order to get the economy to function effectively.



But let us not run away from the fact that the current ownership structure of the economy is desirous of a fundamental change in order to integrate all South Africans into its mainstream – which is mining, manufacturing, agriculture, banking, finance, insurance and also the wholesale and retail trades. Let’s not run away from that fact because, if we do, we are not making a good contribution towards the creation of a nonracial South Africa.



I would urge the Freedom Front Plus in particular to be very careful that they do not seem to be protecting the past. It must move along with us in building this future that we want. And these structural reforms I am talking about are going to benefit all South Africans, black and white, irrespective of whether they live in the Free State, the Northern Cape, or in Limpopo. Thank you very much.



Question 498:


The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you so much hon House Chair and thank you to hon Shaik Emam for the question that he had asked. Indeed, through the Post Office we have engaged Telkom in order to supply and refresh the depleted branch hardware. Some of the challenges that are experienced by the Post Office relate to the Information Technology, IT equipment that is there and this is what they are busy trying to focus on in terms of improving the systems that are in place. We are aware that hon members are also concerned about the long queues that are there in the Post Office, especially in relation to the social relief of distress grant, SRD of R350.



I am pleased to inform all hon members and anybody who is affected by the system, we are working with the Post Office, SA Social Security Agency, Sassa and Postbank in order to make sure we



address the cash planning and process related challenges. We have since also introduced alternative system that is meant to make sure that as they are in their queues, we are be able to separate those that are for example coming for vehicle licencing and others for SRD claims. We do hope that as the time goes on, these will improve.



We are also working again with the Postbank in developing the Digital SRD grant disbursement platform and we have identified the potential solution to the challenges especially on the SRD grants in the country. Thank hon Chair.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you hon House Chair. Minister, I am not satisfied with the explanation you have given and I will tell you why I am saying this. The problem that you are sitting with is not only a SA Post Office problem, your problem is created by the Department of Transport with the renewal of licences. Your problem is caused by the Department of Employment and Labour, particularly when you talk about the Temporal Employment Relief Scheme, TERS and Department of Social Development as well.



Let me tell you Minister, there are literally queues of hundreds of people that are already in the rain, in the sun with no food, nothing. What is worse is that more often than not, most of them



get turned away at the end of the day. Can’t we rather have a system that if there is 500 people in the queue and if you can accommodate 100 people a day, give some numbers to the others so that when they come back the next day. What is happening now, they have to come back every day and be turned away four, five, six to ten days at a time, but if you could put a system – I know it is not entirely the fault of the Post Office, but you could at least put a system. I have spoken to your chief executive officer, CEO who has promised to deal with the matter at hand.



Can you put a system that takes 500 people, 150 will be helped and the other 350 will get a number, for the next day another 150, the following day another 150 and anybody who comes after that will follow last? They do not have to stand there for the entire day, not be served and go back and come back and ... [Inaudible.] The money they spend is more than what they actually get.



The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Hon Shaik Emam, as I said in my response earlier that we are attending to our IT system. Yes, it is correct that that we are working with different departments, for example on the motor vehicle licencing that belongs to the Department of Transport. The issue goes back to the integration of systems which is why I said, we are hopeful that once we finalise



all those upgrades and integrational systems, we will be able to resolve the challenges that we are faced with.



We are appreciative of the fact that we have not been able to communicate effectively in terms of explaining the process as currently we have one desktop from the Department of Transport in each Post Office and of course a different system. This is why now I mentioned earlier that we are working towards – though I may not have mentioned the Department of Transport but we are working with them including the Department of Employment and Labour to say how do we as government integrate our systems, so that when one comes for a particular service but finds – especially we do not have to turn people away. That was what I meant. I apologise if it did not come out clearly hon Chair. Thank you so much.



Ms P MADOKWE: Minister, the Post Office has a wide network of offices. It is very difficult to find a municipality without some form of Post Office infrastructure. However, the problem is government departments, state owned companies and municipalities do not use the services of the Post Office, instead they use companies that have no interest in long term development of this country either in terms of jobs or to reduce inequality.



To rebuild and strengthen the Post Office, should we not further capacitate it and make it compulsory for government departments, state owned companies and municipalities to use Post Office services and not go on tender for services already offered by the Post Office?



The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you hon member for that question and advice. Of course it is government’s commitment to make sure that they utilise the Post Office in the services that you are talking about. Currently as I said, we are experiencing capacity challenges which are mainly due to not only systems but also training of our personnel.



Once we have those in place, we will then be able boldly so to come and say, government there is no need for you to go the private sector. Of course we can have private sector in areas where it complements the work that we do. Even the commercial ones that you are talking about on the private ones, they do not go to the rural areas. They change everything and when it is supposed to go to the township or the rural areas, it becomes the burden of the Post Office.



This is what we are trying to address in the board’s Strategic Turnover Programme, STP that we are busy with. We are working hand



in hand with the board to make sure that we finalise that strategy and therefore build the capacity and then we come and reclaim our space as it is supposed to happen. Government supports all state owned entities, but we look at the issue of capacity that has to be addressed. In the meantime, until we get there we really have to get our house in order.



We urge all, not just government but also private and ordinary citizens to make use of the Post Office as it renders most of the services. Thank you hon House Chair.



Ms H DENNER: Thank you House Chair. Hon Minister speaking of Post Office services and systems, Post office staff have been mistreated, abused and even arrests by some of the beneficiaries especially of the R350 SRD grant, remain patient due among other reasons the inefficiencies in the system such as funds from Sassa not being readily available, limitations of the number of beneficiaries that can be helped per day, a lack of proper facilities, a lack of staff, etc which you yourself has alluded to in your answer



How will the Post Office address this threat to Post Office staff’s safety and security, taking into account that there are few to nil security services at Post Office infrastructure at most



Post Offices and this makes for very poor working conditions which contravenes relevant labour and workplace legislation? I thank you.



The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you hon House Chair and thank you to the hon member for that question. Of course are experiencing lots of challenges in relation to the rollout of SRD. A case in point is what the hon member made reference to in terms of the security of our personnel, which why you see both the Minister of Social Development and myself doing unannounced visits in order to understand what these challenges are.



Indeed, key at the centre is the fact that we need to improve our security which is something that we have relayed to the board to look at. We may be saying that the SRD is a short term intervention but when it happens, nobody thinks about that including the number of personnel that we have. This is why we said, we appreciate that the government is making interventions. We have the existence of a footprint in all the areas where people can come and collect their monies from, but then these other issues we did not think about in terms of beefing up our security. We have tried in other areas but the issue is, we have to really move towards electronic systems as currently we have been



providing physical security. I will not dwell much as we know that also puts our personnel at risk of the hijackers.



We are trying again as I said to work on a digital solution with Department of Social Development and Sassa to say, how can we make sure that we minimise the people that come to the Post Office directly and make sure that we limit the access to the cash because what attracts all these criminals, is the cash that we distribute or disburse in our Post Offices. We are trying to make interventions to say, how can we make our people are able to get without them coming physically to the Post Office. Thank you hon House Chair.



Ms N J KUBHEKA: House Chair, I would like to ask to the Minister, what causes the long ques in the Post Office, especially this one in the Durban Region, KwaZulu-Natal. Can you just clarify to say what you picked up there? Thank you very much House Chair.





UMPHATHISWA WEZONXIBELELWANO: Sihlalo weNdlu, enye yeengxaki esithe sazibona kwiPhondo laKwaZulu-Natal kukuba sinezakhiwo zaseposini ezithe zatsha ezifana neMt Egdecombe. Ngoko ke kuye kwanyanzeleka ukuba sithathe abantu sibase kwezinye iiposofisi njengePhoenix, eTongaat naseVerulam. Loo nto ithetha ukuba



iposofisi ifumana amanani abantu ebancedayo angaphezulu kulawo aqhelekileyo.



Zizinto ezi esingakhange sicinge ukuba zingenzeka, kuba njengoko abahlali beqhankqalaza xa bengonelisekanga betshisa izakhiwo, inemiphumela ekhokelela ekufeni kwabantu xa befolile ngenza yezifo abanazo. Kodwa ke siyazama njengoko benditshilo, sizama ukuqinisekisa ukuba sifaka ii...





... interim Post Offices in shopping centres ...





... ezikhoyo. Kwezinye iiposofisi ebesizisebenzisa besiqeshile kuzo. Ngoku sithatha abantu sibabuyisela kwezi zakhiwo zethu zeeposi. Loo nto ke ithi ukuba sijonga umgama, kufuneka...





... to provide interim solutions and the Post Office is literally addressing those as we speak. Thank you hon House Chair.



Question 462:







KWEZINDAWO ZASEMAKHAYA: Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo, ngizibongele nakumalunga ahloniphekile ale Ndlu yesiShayamthetho, ngibonge ilungu elihloniphekile eliphinde libe uSihlalo wekomidi lami, iNkosi uMandela. Impela lo mbuzo owubuzayo mayelana nokuguquguquka nokuhlela kabusha, ukuthuthukiswa kwezomnotho njengoba sibhekene nalolu bhubhane lwe-COVID. Ekumemezeleni kukaMongameli uBaba uCyril Matamela Ramaphosa ushilo ukuthi kuzobaluleka ukuthi sibheke lezo zinhlaka zomnotho ezingakwazi ukuthi zisisize ukuguquguqula isimo sethu sezomnotho.



Uyabuza ke lungu elihloniphekile ukuthi: Ngokwami ukubona njengoNgqongqoshe, ngabe kubaluleke kangakanani ukusheshisa ukulungisa nokuhlengahlengisa izindaba zomhlaba ukuze sikwazi ukuthi sibenegalelo kwezomnotho futhi nokuguqula kwesimo selizwe lakithi? Hhayi, mangisho Ndabezitha ukuthi ngeke impela sithi akubalulekanga. Kubaluleke kakhulu, ngoba siyazi ukuthi umhlaba uyisizinda sako konke esikwenzayo ukuze sikwazi ukuphumelela.



Uma ukhuluma ngezokwembiwa, zenziwa emhlabeni. Uma ukhuluma ngezokulima, zenziwa emhlabeni. Uma ukhuluma ngezimboni, zakhiwa emhlabeni. Uma ukhuluma ngezindlu zethu zokuhlala, njalo njalo konke kusuka la kwezomhlaba. Siyazi ukuthi ngokungalingani ngaphambili, kwathi abaningi balelizwe, abampisholo ikakhulukazi



abazange bakwazi ukuba negalelo ngenxa yokuthi babengenawo umhlaba wokwazi ukuthi bazilungiselele kuwo. Yingakho ke uhulumeni ethi naye uzozama ukulisheshisa lolu hlelo lokuhlengahlengisa kwezomhlaba.



Ngikhuluma nje emavikini adlule, simemezele ukuthi uhulumeni uzonikezela ngomhlaba obusezandleni zakhe kubantu bakithi.

Siqhubeka singamile sibheka futhi nokuxazululwa kwezinkinga ikakhulukazi lapha ku-restitution. Kubalulekile lokho nakubantu bakithi eNingizimu Afrika ukuthi kwenziwe ngokushesha. Siyazi ukuthi uma kukhona ukungavisisani mayelana nokulungiswa kwalesi simo, kungabakhona isixakaxaka esixakayo lapha ezweni lethu.



Sinelungelo futhi umsebenzi kumbe isibopho esisibhekile siyisizwe ukuthi sikulungise lokhu. Uyabuza futhi lungu elihloniphekile ukuthi: Ngabe umgomo wezomhlaba uyaziwa yini ngamazwe angaphandle ikakhulukazi lawo azimisele ukutshala izimali? Yebo, uyaziwa. Uma sibheka nje umsebenzi owenziwa ngamanxusa ethu laphaya phesheya njalo njalo, nathi masihlangana nabanye kulezi zindawo siyakhuluma ngokuthi isimo sethu sezomhlaba, nomthetho kanye noMthethosisekelo kumi kanjani.



Sengigcina, mangikusho ukuthi inkinga esinayo abanye bethu siye sihambe sikhuluma kabi ngalelizwe. Sikhulume sengathi kukhona



ukungezwani, ingathi uhulumeni usefuna ukuthatha umhlaba ngendluzula ngokungahambisani koMthethosisekelo njalo njalo – sikhuluma amampunge. Ngoba sinezimali zokugibela amabhanoyi siyofafaza la manga, abese ayaxaka ke ngoba abantu abangaphandle bese bayasibuka njengabantu okungathi akufanele bazotshala izimali zabo.



Mina engingakusho kithi sonke asiyeke ukugxibha sikhulume kabi ngezwe lakithi. Noma ngabe asizwani ngemibono noma ngabe singabezepolitiki ngokuhlukana kodwa asikhumbule ukuthi singabahlali baleli sonke. Akukho la nizoya khona ngoba nalaba ababevela ngaphesheya omzala babo abasabazi nanokuthi babevelaphi abasakhumbuli. Ngiyabonga [Ihlombe.]



Ink Z M D MANDELA: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Minister, what are the linkages between government programmes to the released state land as means to accelerating land reform and the economic reconstruction and recovery programme? And how will these plans enhance farmer development and support to beneficiaries of release of state land to be allocated? And lastly, where there are investors participating in land reform, what role does the Minister envisage them to play and how will you ensure that the intended land reform beneficiaries are active participants in land reform initiatives? I thank you, House Chair.





Hon House Chair, indeed there are linkages in terms of the release of state land and continuous programmes of land reform that seek to give ownership as well as use for those who would like to participate in agricultural development and other forms of development — as you know that our land reform is not only about agriculture but also about other areas of development such as creation of industries and human settlement.



Indeed, there is a linkage because where people have assets to be able to utilise for economic growth, land is one such asset that is important for any development.



You also want to know what it is that government will do in order to support those farmers who would have benefitted from government’s land release programme. You would recall that last year when the President announced in this House on the release ... actually, it is February this year in his state of the nation address, he indicated that those who would receive allocation of state land from government would be given training and necessary support in terms of post settlement to be able to utilised that land productively because land is just but one instrument, the rest is about how that land is used productively.



This is our commitment that we are making. We are saying, how do we see the role of investors in this process. As government we have appreciated that there is a need of partnership working together with private investors in order to ensure that we can improve our economic participation for those who have been historically disadvantaged.



I just want to say that for instance, if you look at some of the land reform programmes such as restitution in areas where we are working together with Minister Creecy, where people had received land in the Kruger National Park for instance, you have both government as well as private sector participating with the communities that have received that land so that it is used productively.



There had been instances which we must admit where such partnerships have not worked at best on behalf of those communities and as government we are intervening on those areas and also plead that where investors come and participate working with our communities, it is important that we do so in a manner that improves the capability of those who have been given such assets. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr M K MONTWEDI: House Chairperson, to the Minister, maybe the problem is that government has no clearly identifiable policy on land redistribution. From the land redistribution for agricultural development to the settlement and land acquisition grant. From the proactive land acquisition grant to the state land disposal policy.



The mess of that in land restitution is not even worth a mention. The reality is that all these programmes have not developed a layer of black players in the agricultural sector and have not even bunted the control whites have in the industry.



What new approach will your department take post-COVID to accelerate redistribution of land back to its rightful owners, the black people, and ensure they participate more meaningfully in agriculture? Thank you, Chair.





Hon House Chair, I don’t think it will be correct to say that there is no policy. What we can talk about perhaps is that there are policy gaps, but it cannot be correct to say there is no policy. Secondly, it would also not be correct to say there are no black farmers that are successful because there are. They may not be at scale in the number that we would all like.



We can also talk about the fact that maybe we don’t yet have the majority of black farmers in terms of their contribution to the market share in agriculture of the different commodities. Yes, we can agree to that but it doesn’t mean there are not.



Obviously, one of the things that government has done in setting up the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Land Reform is to ensure that there is co-ordination in the way in which we address the issues of land reform given the different needs.



As government we have also committed ourselves through programmes such as the ones that we have developed to support farmers, not only emerging farmers but all farmers, issues of market access, issues of finance, issues of research and technology which can make our farmers to be successful.



So, those matters are considered even in our programmes we are working with those to ensure that we address the needs that are there for our farming sector. Thank you very much.



Ms N G TOLASHE: Hon Chair, to the hon Minister, in the National Development Plan agriculture was earmarked as one of the sectors that will create jobs in South Africa. In the new Economic



Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, the promotion of investment in the agricultural sector is also identified amongst others.



In light of the above, how do you see the impact of the present untenable climate of weekly brutal and horrific farm attacks and murders on investor [Inaudible.] especially with the President being on record on the international stage stating that there are no farm murders and land grabs in South Africa? Thank you.





Hon member, with respect to the issue of farm attacks or rural safety as I would like to call it — because indeed, those who are affected when there are attacks in our rural communities are farmers, farm workers and farm dwellers all of whose lives are equally important to us as government and also to the citizens of our country.



I do not think it would be correct to isolate one community amongst the rest. We have been on record as government to say that any attacks on our community and any crime committed among the members of society is not acceptable. In the farming area particularly, Minister of Police has been working with farming organisations to make sure that we can actually deal with the



issues of tension and that sometimes there are underlying issues that cause violent crimes in those communities.



Secondly, Minister of Police working with the farming organisations has ensured that plans are put in place to make sure that they speedily arrest where such problems have happened and we have seen a lot of people who have been arrested and brought to our courts in dealing with these issues of farm murders.



This is what I was raising when I was responding in isiXhosa to hon Mandela that part of the challenge that we have as a country is that at times in dealing with our problems we actually go outside of the country and create an impression that it is doom and gloom — that South Africa is such a violent society and it can’t be liveable. I think we work against ourselves because if we think there are gaps it is our responsibility to work and partner with government to address those problems instead of speaking ill of our own country. The ripple effect is on all of us. Thank you very much.





Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Ngiyathokoza ngethuba mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe usukhulume wendlala ngomgomo wokulekelela ezolimo ikakhulukazi iso loMnyango libuka kubalimi abahwebayo, abalimi abakhulu. Ngisukuma



nokuthi ngabe uma ubuka lo mgomo woMnyango kukhona ukuhlinzekela ukusiza imiphakathi yasemakhaya le engena mandla okulima kodwa enawo umhlabathi ovundile nonothile ukuba ibingasizwa leyo miphakathi yasemakhaya ikwazi ukuvuselela amasimu ilime ukuze kube khona ukudla okwaneleyo komphakathi. Singabi nabo abantu abakhangezayo umhlabathi ukhona. Inkinga kube ukuthi nje imishini yokusebenza ayikho emakhaya ukuthi kusizakale abantu.



Kunabantu abanogandaganda emakhaya, uma ngingabeka nje isibonelo ngabe uMnyango ungena esivumelwaneni nabo ukuthi balekelelwe ukulima, ukusiza labo bantu ukuze amasimu avuseleleke abantu bakwazi ukutshala ukudla, bakwazi ukuphila ngaphandle kokuthi bancike ekutheni bayofunzwa.



Okokugcina, bese kuba ukuthi kwabona abantu abanamasimu avulekileyo banokuthi balime ngokwanelisayo baphume nabo bahambe bayodayisa emphakathi abakhelene nayo emakhaya, ngabe uMnyango likhona ithuba olivulile ukuthi umgomo wawo usize lapho?






KWEZINDAWO ZASEMAKHAYA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ngibonge nakuNdabezitha iNkosi uCebekhulu, impela uMnyango ikakhulukazi ezifundazweni uyasebenzisana nabalimi abasafufusa kanye nalabo



balimi abasezindaweni zamakhosi ngokuthi babanike izinsiza. Mhlawumbe kungenzeka ukuthi lezo zinsiza azanelanga. Uma sibheka nje kulolu bhubhane lwe-COVID ezinye zenzinto uMnyango owazenza kwakuwukubhekisisa ikakhulukazi ukuthi sibalekelela kanjani abalimi abancane ezindawe ezisemakhaya kanye nalabo abanezindawo zabo abazithengele zona abasafufusayo.



Ngiphinda nje uMongameli uthe ekhuluma kule Ndlu wabeka ukuthi ezinye zezinto azibalile ukuthi kufanele silekelele khona ukuthi kube khona nokudla, ukulekelela ikakhulukazi labalimi abasafufusayo ngolikaGeorge phecelezi okuthiwa ngama-subsistance farmers. Kumanje nje siphezu kwalolo hlelo esibhekane nalo ukuthi liyosiza abalimi abafufusayo ababalelwa kuzi-74 000. Besisebenza futhi ne-Solidarity Fund nayo ehlangene neNdlu yoBukhosi ibhekisana ukuthi ingafaka kanjani igalelo ekulekeleleni labo balimi abasafufusayo ezindaweni ezingaphansi kwamaKhosi.



Angisho Mphathisihlalo kanye neNkosi uCebekhulu ukuthi siyazinika izinsiza. Ngingakhuluma ngibeke lapha ngeNkosi uChiliza le kwaZulu-Natali sike sasebenzisana naye simlekelela ukuthi labo bomama asebesezingeni lokukukhiqisa ukuthi bakwazi ukuyisa izinto zabo emakethe balekelelwa kanjani ikakhulukazi ukuthi izinto zabo zifike zisesesimweni esiyiso. Ngingabala futhi uma ubheka endaweni kaCentane la iWipolt esiyeke ukuthi ilime kuphela, isifake ngisho



ama-silos wokuthi labo balimi abalima ezindaweni zaMakhosi lapha kuCentane abalima ummbila ukuthi ugcineke kahle ukuze uye ezimakethe. Yebo, kuningi esingaqhubeka sikwenze kodwa ngiyathemba ukuthi uMnyango ikakhulukazi KaZwelonke noweziFundazwe usebenzisane siyokwazi ukuthi ubhekane nalesi simo sabalimi abasafufusayo abangaphansi kwezindawo zaMaKhosi. Ngiyabonga.



Question 482:




Cabinet members, colleagues ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, Minister, you have given me a new title! Please proceed.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: The question asked by hon Mileham refers to an old and complex case that I found in the department. We have invested energy and resources in following up this case. It is now alive and is in the courts.



What many people do not realise is that both the strategic stock and the money are with the department. So there’s no deal with this case. The money is with us. The stock is in our storage in Saldanha.



We have agreed to take a more systematic approach in dealing with the problem. We agreed that the logical starting point is to settle the main case first. That involves clearing the question of the stock and settling it. We want to settle it – and it is  now a court case – because we already have an agreement with one party. Two other parties are awaiting the court’s verdict on the issue.



When we did that, we were able to discover – in the affidavits dealing with the main case – new people who were involved in transgressing the law by selling the stock. [Inaudible] and the next phase will be taking up individual cases, which is a key point of the case.



While criminal charges have been laid and law enforcement agencies like The Hawks have been engaged and are busy with the investigation, to ensure that there is traction, we continue to work closely with The Hawks in their criminal investigation.



Now, disciplinary cases in the department will follow once the main case is concluded. The affidavits have shown that people who are still with the department are being revealed as new culprits in this case. We are preparing for those cases. But we have agreed



not to be haphazard in dealing with a complex case like this one. That is why we [Inaudible]. Thank you very much.



Mr K J MILEHAM: minister, in August this year, President Ramaphosa wrote a letter to the ANC in which he described the ANC as Accused Number One when it came to corruption. He said, and I quote, "people who fail to give an acceptable explanation or to voluntarily step down while they face disciplinary investigative, or prosecutorial procedures should be summarily suspended."



I now ask you in your capacity as Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, and as ANC chairperson, what steps will you take to have Ms Tina Joemat-Pettersson – who was the former Minister of Energy – removed from her position as chairperson of one of the portfolio committees tasked with overseeing corruption investigations, namely the Portfolio Committee on Police, given her role in the corrupt and dishonest manner in which our fuel reserve was sold from under our very noses? Thank you.



Mr B A RADEBE: [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Radebe, please mute ... Hon Radebe, I can’t hear you. Please raise your point of order again.



Mr B A RADEBE: [Inaudible.]



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, may I take it?



Mr B A RADEBE: [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Radebe, we cannot hear you. Please mute. Can we allow the Chief Whip to raise the point of order on your behalf?



Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Radebe, we are unable to hear you. You are breaking up.



Mr B A RADEBE: [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Radebe, please mute. Can we allow the Chief Whip to raise the point of order on your behalf? We can’t hear you. You are breaking up terribly. Chief Whip?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very much, House Chair. The point of order that the hon member is raising relates



to hon Mileham posing a question to the hon Minister in the Minister’s capacity as chairperson of the ANC. That is out of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. I heard that very clearly. He said, "as ANC chairperson". Let me just remind the members that we are asking members of the executive questions today. I will allow the hon Mantashe to respond. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Chairperson and hon members, firstly, I think hon Mileham is pushing his luck to the limit in trying to exploit a situation by quoting the President when he was talking to the ANC and saying that the ANC was Accused Number One. Many people who are on the list of accused of this case are not ANC members. Now, if he has a list of ANC members which he wants to put forward, he must not be afraid to approach The Hawks and say, this is Accused Number Two, and then add names.



At this point in time we are not at that stage. We are dealing with the question of strategic stock. We want to settle that case and then deal with the individual cases internally and externally. If any member of the ANC appears on that list, we will invoke the



policies of the ANC at that point. Those policies and those of the state will then take their course.



I hear the question that you can’t have ... [Inaudible] ... a member of the ANC .... is just an opportunistic approach from hon Mileham, the DA member, and that we cannot put the ... [Inaudible]

... of the ANC. He will not be satisfied; that’s it.



Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, hon Minister, for your reply. The ACDP welcomes the deal that has been struck to reverse the unlawful 2015 sale of crude oil reserves. And we are aware, Minister, that you have tabled a report before the board of the Central Energy Fund.



My question to you, Sir, is whether the report you tabled covers the reasons these strategic crude oil reserves were sold at a discounted price of US$28 per barrel when, at the time, the market rate was about US$38.



[Inaudible] ... the report does mention from this transaction. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You cut out for a while, hon Meshoe. I wonder whether the Minister heard your complete question. I will give him the opportunity to respond.





Meshoe. Let’s start with the facts first. I do not report to the Central Energy Fund; it reports to me. I have never tabled a report to the Central Energy Fund. The officials of the Strategic Fuel Fund Association, SFF – which is a subsidiary of the Central Energy Fund – should have reported to the Central Energy Fund, not me.



So, the details that the report contains ... I am the wrong person to ask that. The SFF is driving the process in this case, and it reports regularly to both the Central Energy Fund and to my office. The reports that we receive contain the progress that is being made on this case. That is why I can confidently say that a deal has been reached with Glencore. The other two parties did not accept the deal. They opted rather to wait for the court’s verdict on the matter.



The arguments are complete. We are waiting for the verdict. Once that has happened, we will continue and settle the issue of the strategic stock, and then there will be no issue of strategic



stock. What is left to do now is to pursue the individuals who were the culprits in this deal.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, before hon Madokwe asks her question, I saw your faces when she asked the first question. Not everybody recognise her. I am informed that she is a sworn-in member of this House replacing hon Ketse. Thank you. Hon Madokwe ...



Ms P MADOKWE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minister, having noted one of your responses to one of the previous speakers, I think it is very important to stress that the most tragic thing about the sale of our strategic fuel reserves is that your predecessor, Ms Tina Joemat-Pettersson, lied to this House and said there was no sale of those strategic fuel reserves, but merely a rotation. Have you done any internal investigations that would warrant opening charges of corruption against Ms Joemat- Pettersson. If not, why does your department only hold officials and not politicians or political deployees accountable? Thank you very much.





members of the opposition are very keen to make Tina Joemat- Pettersson ...



The investigation doesn’t go that way. You don’t pin doubt on those you don’t like and leave others. That’s why our process is, let’s settle the main case, then we deal with the individuals who appear in the report in our possession. This may include political activists and officials. The details of the report show me how vulnerable political executives actually are when it come to some of these issues.



I am not defending Tina Joemat-Pettersson. I am giving you the reality of the issues. In some instances, Cabinet members are vulnerable in the sense that things are executed at a particular level and exclude political activists. In this case, once we finish the main case, we will go to the details of the individuals. If Tina Joemat-Pettersson’s name is on the list of people who are culprits, we are not going to leave her out. So we are not pursuing officials and leaving political [Inaudible.]



We have not pursued officials up to now because we are approaching this in a particular, systematic way. And officials are there.

Then there will be issues that reflect the role played by political leaders, and that will not be exempted. We will deal with it ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Before I proceed to hon Mahlaule, let me advise the new member that saying a member of this House has lied is unparliamentary. Please, next time ... I am going to be lenient this time because you are still new. Thank you.



Mr M G MAHLAULE: Hon Minister, we are very pleased to hear you will clarify that the strategic stock of the country and the moneys are still with the department. And we are also pleased that you explained the legal processes unfolding in this regard. That is why you would hear the first member diverting from the main question, because you have answered all the questions in this regard. No further questions, Your Honour! [Laughter.]





MUTSHAMAXITULU WA YINDLU (Man M G Boroto): Ndza khensa, tatana.





Would you like to respond to hon Mahlaule, hon Mantashe?












MUTSHAMAXITULU WA YINDLU (Man M G Boroto): Aha, inkomu.



Question 489:


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chair, thank you very to the House, for this opportunity. The answer to the question is as follows: the person was appointed because the person possessed the requisite skills for the position to be occupied. She is highly qualified for the position. She has extensive knowledge of politics and can read the environment very well and therefore provides sufficient support to the Minister of Finance. Secondly, the appointment was made in terms section 9 of the Public Service Act 1994, read in conjunction with amended Regulation 66 of the Public Service Regulations of 2016. Regulation 66, authorises the filling of positions in the office of an executive authority without advertising.



The person was appointed as a community outreach officer, which I prefer to call (political secretary). The person is responsible for amongst others: liaising with the constituency office of the Minister of Finance, which is Tzaneen, interacting with communities on the services of the Ministry of Finance, interacting with domestic and international stakeholders on the services of the Ministry of Finance and support for the Minister



on public outreach programmes, such as, for an example a work in the district development model. That’s a long and a short of it. Thank you Madam Chair.



Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, Minister Mboweni you haven’t answered the main part of the question, which is the serious allegations against Ranjeni Munusamy whom you have appointed in your office. Are you saying those allegations do not mean anything? Are you saying all South Africans who have questionable characters and serious allegations levelled against them must be employed in the state and what happens when the findings of those allegations are finding them on the wrong side of the law. Number two, is Ranjeni writing a book for you and you have merely placed her in your office for a payroll as a compensation to a book that she is writing for you, if she is? Please clarify, thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chairperson, let me start with the second one, which is very easy from hon Veronica Mente, the National Chairperson of the EFF. Ranjeni Munusamy is not writing a book for me, so that is an ebel legend created by the EFF. For some reason Chairperson of the EFF - I know you guys create stories, so that’s not true [Applause.]. My book is written by a different ghost writer and in any case it only will be published when I am 70 years of age of or when I am death, so she is not



writing a book for me. That’s one, number two, yes, you must never publish books when you are under 70, because there’s too many leaks between cup and lid, it still may do many wrong things.

Coming to your first question, I know that she has been in the commission of enquiry into state capture and certain allegations have been made against her. I have satisfied myself in terms of the facts before me, that until such time that any finding has been done, I don’t see...in fact I have through the matter quite systematically – when I was interviewing her for the job, I asked her questions regarding that and I am satisfied that she can work in the office, highly competent and be able to do her job very well.



If she was going to be found somehow, to have committed a wrong doing, she will obviously be forked match out of my office but for now, I have no reason not to work with her, she is highly competent, she is highly connected, she knows people that I need for my work and she is very competent and a very good South African, as far as am concern. Unless other facts come to my disposal, which at the moment they have not come to my disposal.

People must leave her alone, you know. Thank you very much.



Ms E D PETERS: House Chairperson, hon Minister, the ANC-led government has made a solemn commitment to fight and defeat



corruption and plugged the loopholes that make it possible for those with corrupt intent to misappropriate public resources. Government has also identified the need for comprehensive procurement reforms. What can you say to assure South Africans, that National Treasury is doing whatever it can to reduce the perception that corruption is endemic in government and how much progress has been made with regards to the Draft Public Procurement Bill 2020, which as the ANC, we believe will also contribute to this effort to defeat corruption and empower small, black, women, youth and people with disability owne-businesses in a legitimate way. I thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chairperson, you know, corruption is a very serious global issue and I think we have to do all we can to fight corruption. Corruption sometimes manifest itself in what might looks like small ways. When people receive favours for which are not due to them, that’s corruption, when people go on holiday with people who might have an interest in the conversation, which might lead to a benefit or the creation of an idea towards the business with the state, that’s corruption. There are many other forms of corruptions, big and small, and therefore we have to commit ourselves to fight against that at all cost. At every level, at municipal level, at the provincial level, at the water board, at The South African National Roads Agency Limited,



Sanral, everywhere we must fight against corruption. At Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, PRASA, at South African Airways, at South African Technical Services and so on.



So, I think it’s a huge battle and we have to win this one, otherwise the struggle for freedom would have been for nothing and therefore a state being a major player in the economy in the procurement system, has to make sure that corruption is uprooted in the whole procurement system. The reason we have put forth the Draft Public Procurement Bill for public comment, we want South Africans to contribute towards the strengthening of the Bill, such that when we put it in place, it must be strong enough.



Let me just give you one little indication, the state is the main procure of goods and services, the state should not be paying more for those goods and services, it should be paying less actually, using it’s purchasing power to lower the prices. This notion that because it’s a government contract, the price must be higher, must come to an end, that’s not right. So, therefore hon member, I thank you for your question and I think when the Bill comes before Parliament. I think, Parliament will as well further add teeth and strength at the Bill, but I thank you for the question. Thank you very much.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: House Chairperson, Minister, you are the primary guardian and custodian of the integrity of the National Treasury. Treasury must set the example for the whole government in the whole country in integrity, probity and scrupulousness and I think that you should have delayed this appointment until such time as the wave of commission of inquiry into state capture has been removed completely from Mrs Munusamy and that you should consider reversing it until that time. May specific question to you, you’ve just said that went into quiet a lot of details and asked a lot of questions, Mrs Munusamy’s explanation is that she didn’t know that R153 000 was paid into her account and didn’t ask any questions about it, so you’ve gone into this in details, can you please take us into your confidence. How is it that she did not know that and how is it that an applausable explanation, for her story of what happens in this Commission of Inquiry into state capture allegations? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chairperson, thank you very much for that question, I should make it very clear, that having discussed this matter with her and having been satisfied about their answers, I had no doubt whatsoever that from what she told me and I had no reason to believe that she lied at all. That, the matters will be cleared before the commission on the basis of the information I have now, I am quiet convinced that the matters will



be cleared. I don’t want to interfere with that commission, I don’t want say anything which the commission might find to have interfered with their work at all. I am satisfied as I speak now, I am satisfied that she is indeed a qualified and good person to work in this capacity. She is also a person, let’s give her time to work and uSisi [Sister] Veronica Mente from EFF talked about allegations and so on and so forth. You, know if worked on that basis, a number of EFF members should not be in Parliament actually, [Applause.] because there are accusations against them about Venda Building Society, VBS, they shouldn’t be there. So we must be very careful on how we phrase matters like these [interjection.] and how you deal with this with issues like these, we must be very careful...[interjection.]



Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Mente, what’s your point of order? Thank you.



Ms N V MENTE: Members of EFF in Parliament never went to the commission of inquiry into state capture and never had money in their accounts...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member, what’s your point of order?



Ms N V MENTE: ...no, the Minister must not mislead the House, he must withdraw.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon members, that’s not a point of order, it’s a point of debate, can we continue, hon Shaik Emam. [Interjection.] [Inaudible.]



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, Minister in in the six and half years that I am a Member of Parliament, this is the most absurd question I got from hon Shivambu. With serious allegations of theft from Venda Building Society, VBS, bank levelled against him, he still holding important position in the Standing Committee Finance and he thinks it’s ok... [Inaudible.] [Interjection.]






NTLANGWINI House Chair, on a point of order.








SHAIK EMAM: ...are you satisfied Minister... [Inaudible.]








NTLANGWINI: House Chair, on a point of order.








SHAIK EMAM: ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Ntlangwini, hon Mente, I have given the opportunity to hon Shaik Emam and I will consider your point of order. Can you speak hon Shaik Emam and you are breaking right now ...I will come back to you.



Ms N V MENTE: ...[Inaudible.] you can’t finish, that the rules, we have called the point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon members, I couldn’t even hear hon Shaik Emam because you were just shouting, so please allow me to hear so that I can respond to your point of order and because he has been breaking, can I allow you hon Shaik Emam to finish your question.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, like I said it’s the most absurd question coming from hon Shivambu, you know, with all the serious allegations of looting and drinking the blood of the poorest of the poor and black, and holding senior position...[Interjection.]



Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, point of order.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ...[Inaudible.]



Ms N V MENTE: ...this serious nonsense that is he is talking about. [Interjection.] it’s wrong.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Mente, please, can I recognise hon Mente... [Interjection.]



Ms N V MENTE: This charlatan must stop.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Mente we are not going to take your point of order.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chairperson, can you take my point of order?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Are you taking... what the hon... because she was the first to ask, are taking her space?






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Shivambu, what is your point of order? Thank you.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order is that, the is no commission of inquiry or any law enforcement agency that has ever put an



allegation against me, for any wrong doing, nowhere. So like to then elevate some newspaper nonsense and making a parliamentary discussion, is completely out of order. This Shaik is out of order, you must tell him to withdraw that because if he’s got an allegation he must make a substantive motion, that’s how Parliament works. He is out of order, he is a suspended member of NFP, who is illegally in Parliament, you must tell him to withdraw now. [Interjection.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member, I know what you are saying, and I am going to rule on it, hon... [Interjection.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: He’s illegal, he is expelled that thing.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Maotwe please. Hon members if you are going to throw allegations on members of this House, you need to do it on a substantive motion, I am cautioning. Hon Minister of Finance, have you... [Interjection.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chairperson...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): What is it hon Shivambu?



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... on a point of order.






Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order is that he must withdraw what he said now, because he made an allegation against a Member of Parliament, that’s how it operates... [Interjection.] [Inaudible.]




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you very much hon member...



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... you must instruct him to withdraw...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): ...hon member...



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ...he must withdraw in the same way; in the way he is going to be withdrawn as a Member of Parliament by the party that has expelled him ... [Interjection.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): ...hon Shivambu.





Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... [Inaudible.] ...for theft of money of the NFP, you must tell him to withdraw now... [Interjection.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): ...hon Shivambu. I will come to you, member. Hon Shivambu, I have ruled on this matter, I have cautioned Mr Shaik Emam that if he has to bring any allegations against any member of this House, he has to do it on a substantive motion and that is my ruling and that is where it will end.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, but on a point of order, your ruling is not consistent... [Interjection.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Ntlangwini, it’s your last warning.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... just earlier on, you have ruled on hon Swart to withdraw, why can’t Shaik withdraw. Your ruling is not consistent, please. [Interjection.]





satisfied[Interjection.] with my ruling, you know what to do. You continuing to do what you are doing now; I will ask Information and Communication Technologies, ICT, to remove you, that’s your warning. Hon Minister, can you please respond to hon Shaik Emam. [Interjection.]



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, may I rise a point of order, please.






Mr S N SWART: I don’t want to dispute your ruling, but it appears to me but it appears exactly the same way you ruled me out order and you asked me to withdraw, when I made a broad accusation against Members of Parliament. It would appear, this the specific allegation against the Member of Parliament and so I will ask you to consider that. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Swart, I hear what you are saying, here a name was mentioned and that is why I am ruling the way I am ruling. Thank you very much. Hon Finance Minister... [Interjection.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): ...no hon Shivambu, I have ruled on this matter and I am not going back.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, but the procedure [Interjection.] is that the member who has stolen money of the NFP and is expelled from the NFP, he must withdraw that, where is the consistency...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member, I am not taking...



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ...why is he not withdrawing?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): ...I am not taking your point of order, because you are also defaulting on the rules. You are accusing hon Shaik Emam of having stolen money. Substantive motion to you, is my ruling, you must also submit a substantive motion. If you continue in that way, I am going to ask ICT to remove you from this. I am now warning, it was only hon Ntlangwini that I warned, I am warning you now. Hon Minister, were you able to hear the question from hon Shaik Emam, because I am not allowing him, his time has expired?



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam House Chair, if I heard him correctly. He was making a statement, and therefore he was expressing his own view as hon Member of Parliament. As far as the substantive matter, on the questions concerned, I think I have answered to the best of my abilities. Thank you very much.



Question 463:




members, the department has initiated a mass public employment



programme with the objective of assisting with the economic recovery through employment creation. The department is also driving a campaign geared towards a cleaner South Africa which is free of litter and illegal dumping. This will be achieved through drawing beneficiaries – which will include women and youth – from across the country, with 60 participants identified per local municipality and 120 participants per metropolitan municipality. There will be provision of tools of trade as well as personal protective equipment. The programme overall will employ over

13 000 women and youth.



In addition, the department has recently obtained Cabinet’s approval for the National Waste Management Strategy, which provides a platform for collaborative implementation of key waste management interventions in partnership with the private sector and civil society. This strategy has a key role for small and medium enterprises that will create jobs while at the same time promote waste minimisation, efficient and effective waste services, and awareness raising and compliance, monitoring and enforcement.



We are currently finalising extended producer responsibility schemes in the following areas: paper and packaging, lighting, and electrical and electronic equipment. These schemes, which have



been issued in terms of section 18 of the Waste Management Act, will set up private-public partnerships that will work in the waste value chain through the reduction, reuse, recycling and recovery of waste. We are enabling this through creating an environment with policy interventions that are provided for in the National Waste Management Act as well as the national Waste Management Strategy. Thank you very much.



Mr P M P MODISE: House Chair, Minister, South Africa imports huge amounts of iron and steel – approximately about US$1,14 billion, which is almost R20 billion worth of steel and iron. This was imported in 2019. Can the Minister please tell us how the department will use recycling, especially metal recycling, to reduce our total reliance on imported steel and iron, while creating job opportunities for the millions of our jobless citizens? Thank you very much.





House Chair, yes, hon Modise, at the moment the State of Waste Report indicates that waste metals currently have a very high recycling rate – estimated to be at about 80% – and we definitely do not see in this particular area the kind of stockpiling that we see with plastics, waste tyres and so forth.



Through the International Trade Administration Commission, Itac, we have introduced a price-preference system to improve access to affordable scrap metal that is going to be recycled for domestic steel and other metal-producing industries. These key changes include: a 10% discount to account for transport costs in cases where domestic consumers are located in inland provinces and scrap metal is located at the coast; the right for domestic consumers to weigh and inspect materials to ascertain whether the materials delivered are of the same quality, type and weight as agreed upon, and the right to compensation if this turns out not to be the case; increased surveillance by Itac to ensure that materials comply with the approved permit, including the right to take legal action for any misrepresentation; and, finally, ensuring that scrap dealers have adequate facilities for the access, loading, and weighing of scrap.



So, in our view, these amendments will definitely help to improve domestic consumers’ access to affordable scrap metal, and address concerns raised by the industry in the interim period. Thank you very much.



Ms H S WINKLER: Hon Minister, considering that millions of South Africans are unemployed, and we face a huge waste management crisis in this country across many ... [Inaudible] ... how many



waste picker co-operatives have been assisted by your department and meaningfully engaged into waste management programmes, considering that so many municipalities lack the political will, resources, or capability to assist these waste picking co- operatives. Thank you.





Deputy Speaker, hon Winkler, I think you are talking about a very important issue, which is the fact that waste management is the responsibility of all three levels of government and, unless there is an effective waste management process at local government level, we are not going to achieve our targets in terms of waste diversion or in terms of small enterprise creation.



It is for this reason that the new Waste Management Strategy prioritises support to local authorities. For starters, we need to be looking at the question of appropriate infrastructure for depositing waste and for separation of waste, either at the landfill itself or at source. We need to make sure that the policy changes and improvements we have generated with National Treasury

– whereby current infrastructure money can now be used for collection services – are actually implemented so that we can effect household collection and hopefully household separation at



source. I am sure you would agree that, unless we do so, the challenges that waste pickers face are extremely difficult.



We also have to do a lot more in terms of consumer education so that when consumers throw away waste that can be recycled, they manage that waste in an appropriate manner.



Off hand, I cannot give you the figures for the number of co- operatives that would be would have been established by local government. I think that that would take considerable time and effort to collect. But I would agree with you that that is where we have to focus our efforts if we want the system to work appropriately. Thank you very much.



Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you, Minister, on 10 July 2020 a representative of the chief directorate General Waste and Municipal Support ... [Inaudible.] ... told the Portfolio Committee on Environment, Forestry and Fisheries that the department was working on a support package that would include a once-off payment based on the poverty guideline, which would be R912 per waste picker.



Now, among some of the few advantages of the lockdown were gains for the environment, with cleaner air, better waste management practices and less pollution.



My question to you, Minister, is, how will the department’s waste management programme maintain these gains, and will the programme also provide formal employment for waste pickers by working with municipalities and metros who are closer to where these waste pickers are? Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.





Thank you very much for the question, hon Chirwa. Let me first of all talk about the section 18 Extended Producer Responsibility process that is in place at the moment. One of the conditions of that process is that those who can successfully set up these recycling schemes have to have a programme to formalise micro- enterprises working in the sector, and also have to have a programme that will enhance the income stream of those who are doing the waste picking or the waste reclaiming. This is important because, unless we have a programme that benefits those who are working at the bottom of the chain, we are not in fact going to be providing sustainable livelihoods to people who are currently working in extremely dangerous and extremely vulnerable situations.



I think you will see from the Public Employment Programme that we have mentioned earlier that we ourselves are trying to bring some of these individuals into the public sector employment process so that we can ensure that they are working under safer conditions, and so that, over time, we can give them skills development and training and incorporate them into more formal programmes. This is very important because the majority of those who are involved in this sector are women and youth, and they are reliant on this form of extremely dangerous work, because there are no other alternatives available to them. So, unless our focus is on improving their livelihoods, we would have failed in our task.

Thank you very much. Thank you.



Mr N SINGH: Hon deputy speaker, hon Minister, the COVID-19 global pandemic has been devastating, to say the least, for many citizens from all sectors of our economy. This includes many members of our society who existed on the periphery of the formal economy. This means that they did not even stand to benefit from any relief funds. Such people include those who earned an income by collecting waste, which they are also segregated before selling to recycling traders.



Earlier on in the year, the KwaZulu-Natal Environmental Affairs MEC touched on integrating such pockets of individuals in areas,



which he identified into the solid waste management systems of municipalities. What developments have taken place in this regard nationwide, and has this idea been discussed at Minmec level?



Furthermore, hon Minister, the President spoke about cleaner municipalities were during the first lockdown. What has been done about that programme of cleaner municipalities? Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, former MEC for Environmental Affairs in KwaZulu-Natal, but you must remember to ask a single question, so that the Minister is able to elaborate and give you a lot more. Minister, please answer the former MEC for Environmental Affairs in KwaZulu-Natal, former MEC Singh.





Singh, I think in my answer to the primary question I did speak about the public employment programmes that we are creating in order to improve the situation with regard to the environment in our local authorities.



With regard to the question on our relations with KwaZulu-Natal, we have been working very closely with the city of Ethekwini on their buyback centres. What we have been doing there is supporting



some of the waste reclaimers in terms of our public employment programme, to make sure that they do receive a steady income. We have also been working with the city to try and ensure that we find either private sector donors or government funding to improve their tools of trade, like, for example, introducing bailers, conveyor belts and so on. And we are currently in one of those centres, working with them to try and secure alternative premises where we have a situation where those who are working are working under very cramped conditions.



I think we are using those relations as pilot programmes and, depending on what we learn from those pilot programmes, we would then want to further the partnerships that we have with the province in+ other municipalities. Thank you.



Question 465:


The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Deputy Speaker, migration for employment is a global phenomenon that has become a megatrend of the 21st century. It is a very complex matter and one of the most topical and controversial issues of our time. It is a very sensitive matter that is of concern to our citizens. It can easily explode into another disaster, if not properly managed. We cannot continue to be sensational about that or continue to make reckless



statements because it, as it can result in unimaginably huge costs for the country.



South Africa tends to attract both documented and undocumented foreign nationals from the continent and other regions because of our perceived stable political and social systems and economic resilience. So, our weak border management, insufficient policy coherence and enforcement strategies have unfortunately resulted in the country having huge numbers of undocumented foreign nationals that are contributing to the volatile situation in the labour market.



So, migration is a crosscutting matter that affects almost every department in our country, and all spheres of government – national, provincial and local level. It is for this reason that the President has since established a 12-member Interministerial Committee, IMC, on Employment of Foreign Nationals, which is co- chaired by myself, as the Minister of Employment and Labour, and the Minister of Home Affairs to urgently advise Cabinet and propose recommendations on migration emergencies and short-term intervention measures; to provide insight into the socioeconomic challenges faced by the country in dealing with migration; and to recommend policy interventions.



I must also say on the second part, that, as part of the broader IMC process, we are considering a number of immediate short-term and medium-term interventions to respond to the immediate issues. The President will pronounce on these matters as soon as we have tabled those recommendations at the appropriate time.



The Department of Employment and Labour has also initiated a number of policy interventions in relation to migration and decent employment. This is informed by our employment policy, which we started to develop some time back. Thank you.



Ms A S ZUMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, are you planning to introduce any policies to enhance and reinforce the existing pieces of legislation, to deal with the tension and the conflicts that exist in the employment and labour space, where some South Africans feel that some sectors only recruit foreign nationals, at the expense of the South African citizens, even though the skills required to perform those duties are at hand here at home and the domestic unemployment rate is on the constant upward trajectory?. I thank you.



The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon member, we are planning to introduce legislative amendments to existing labour legislation to deal with the tensions in the



labour market. We have already assembled a team of legal and International Labour Organisation, ILO, experts to assist us in translating what we call our Draft Labour Migration policy, which we had, into the legislation framework regulations. They must also assist with directives or guidelines to provide for the introduction of quotas on the number of foreign nationals that can be employed, and prohibitions of employment to trade in certain sectors of economy.



Some aspects may be outside of our mandate and in those instances, we will rely on the Cabinet directive, or sister departments, and also social partners at the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, and the various parliamentary committees to assist.



What we need to be careful of is that we have to respect the issues of human rights. We also have to respect the various international labour conventions which we are part of, as well as the rights in the whole UN system. It is very important. So, it needs a balancing act when we are dealing with this particular matter.



Dr M J CARDO: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, you said on record that the government is looking at regulations to limit the



employment of foreign nationals in certain sectors, particularly in the road and freight sectors, tourism and hospitality sectors and agriculture and farming and now you have mentioned the prospect of quotas. Added to this, the Draft Employment Equity Amendment Bill empowers you to set racial employment targets in key sectors. My question is: Are you in favour of job reservation and don’t these apartheid-like interventions by the state undermine the constitutional right to freedom of trade, occupation, and profession?



The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon member, we are not going to undermine the constitutional rights. Therefore, I have said that we will need to balance this with the Constitution and also what we call our obligations on an international level. However, I think that it is a fact that our Constitution does to a certain extent allow for positive discrimination and that has been a very big debate in this country. It has to be done in a proper and careful way. So, positive discrimination and affirmative action are constitutional in this particular country.



So, as we are also dealing with this matter, in relation to foreigners, we have to craft it in a very careful way to ensure that we are not violating rights in the Constitution.



Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, there are instances where foreign nationals who are legal in the country would be employed because of their scarce skills. With time, the employer would leave the running of the business to the efficient individual. Now obviously when members of the committee see that, some of them do object. My question is: How will your department inform local complainants that employed documented foreign nationals with scarce skills have a legal right to employment and should be allowed to do their work? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Reshoe, this issue also needs mass conscientisation, the mass education of our people. You are talking about the scarce skills, but we must be able to show to our people that, when we bring people in from outside, indeed, it is a real scarce skill, which is not available in the country. The danger is that some of the employers, even at the low levels, where you have low-level skills, take the people from outside just in order to exploit the desperate situation and the cheap labour. It has been one of the most explosive areas and I think all this matter needs are education and a conversation with our people. Therefore, we must go to our people and indicate to them that this is the line that we are taking and this is what informs this particular line. That is what I can say.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Deputy Speaker, you had only three follow-up questions and by mistake, you skipped hon Ntlangwini.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: How could I do that? You are absolute ... This is your turn. My apologies to you, hon Ntangwini.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, please never make that mistake again. Maybe ... [Interjections.] Minister, the reality that we are facing in this country is your inability, as the department, to monitor and punish the super exploitation of workers by white employers. We know for a fact that these employers break the law to employ our siblings from other African nations, in order to exploit them, they do not pay them a sufficient living wage and force them to work absurd hours. It is your failure to regulate these employers that cause these problems. Why have you not strongly communicated to the South African public that there are no foreign nationals that are taking South African jobs, but rather that, it is the white employers in the retail, entertainment and transport sectors that are abusing African nationals. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ntlangwini, for the first time, on the second part, I agree with



you. The issue we are facing is not just the foreign nationals; the issue we are facing is the employers who are exploiting cheap labour and exploiting desperate workers who are displaced because of political instability where they are coming from and the economic collapse of the countries where some of them are coming from.



This is a matter that we are dealing with, but we must accept that the scope is very huge when we are comparing it with our inspectors who have to deal with this particular matter. In some instances, we are dealing with the matter. In other instances, we are not able to deal with the matter.



There is another element of people bringing in illegal immigrants through human trafficking. So, it is not just a departmental issue. It is a multidepartmental issue where we have to involve the police, where we have to involve Home Affairs, and some of the departments in dealing with this matter.



However, you are correct to say that, to an extent, it is those who want to exploit desperate people as cheap labour and even deny them what we would call the rights that they are supposed to enjoy as workers. It is a matter that is in our programme, to deal with. Thank you.



Question 466:




Don Deputy Speaker, let me thank hon member, Tlhape for the question that she has asked. I must indicate that COVID-19 on the agricultural sector in South Africa, as well as in the Continent, did have an impact particularly, when you look at the African Continent where some of the countries are dependent on the import of the food stuffs from other countries, though there were some disruptions since in the beginning.



Also, I would like to appreciate that, as the African Union together with the Food and Agricultural Organisation, on 16 April, we had a meeting of the Ministers of Agriculture across the Continent, to look at how we can intervene to ensure that the many shutdowns, or rather the lockdowns that have been put in a number of countries facilitate the movement of goods. In our own country, I must say, that the early interventions of government in ensuring that agriculture remains a site that is open even under level 5, did enable us to deal with issues of food in security.



But also our neighbours, because we never stopped opening the border’s movement for food stuff or of goods to our Continent, which therefore was helpful. I must also say that the intervention of government in ensuring that smallholders’ farmers and



subsistence farmers are assisted with the intervention that was made. To be able to continue produce, was also commendable.

Allowing our farmers to continue to harvest even during that period, enabled us to be able to ensure that no loses, particularly on post harvesting are experienced.



So, all of these interventions, did put us on a better state. However, it is important for me to also indicate that there were indeed, negative impacts, particularly, on those producers that their markets are our hotel industry, restaurants and others, who because of closure of those sectors of our economy, were not able to market their goods. So, what one can say is that, in terms of our production systems and food security in general, we were in a better position, and that has been evidenced by the figures in terms of our Gross Domestic Products, GDP, that we have seen in quarter 2. Thank you very much, Chairperson.





Moh M M E TLHAPE: Motlatsammusakgotla, ke a go leboga.





Hon Minister, it is indeed reassuring that we are still secured as a country despite Covid. Now, the determinant of our food security, does not only include availability and affordability.



They also include accessibility and food neutralisation. Can the minister now explain to the House, the importance of household and community gardens in ensuring and guaranteeing our food security programme, and what is the level of appreciation with regards to their importance in sustenance farming? Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.





Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members and hon Tlhape, I thank you all. Indeed, it is important for us to appreciate that food security is not only about availability and access, but it’s also about sustainability. In this instance, household food security plays a very important role. Also, I think it is important as we have seen during the COVID-19, that those who are able to produce, even if not all commodities for themselves, find that they had better opportunities for sustenance in terms of food security.



Therefore, it is for that reason, that working with the Department of Social Development in particular, we are looking at best ways in which we can intervene, not only in terms of the food banks in ensuring that those who are vulnerable, may have accessibility to food, but also to encourage those who have small pieces in their backyards, verandas and anywhere else where they can be able to get access to land, to produce food for themselves.



It is in that regard that the intervention that has been made, particularly by the president, to assist those that are in subsistence level, becomes important, to ensure that we can create a safety net to retain self-employment for those producers at a subsistence level. Thank you very much, hon member.



Mr N P MASIPA: Through you, Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, South African meat industry remain unable to enter the AU market. Since 2010, South Africa did not export a single ton to the AU market. An estimated 26 million livestock is stolen annually in this country, and the meat of this stolen livestock end in our chain store. Also, South Africa struggles with foot and mouth disease. The chasten ability, the lack of certificate of ownership and fewer inspectors are some of the problems that the industry is faced with.



Hon Minister, what is the department doing to ensure that, firstly, these challenges are addressed, also for South Africa to ensure that they export their meat to market and that foot and mouth diseases affecting a small part of this country does not stop export of meat product? Thank you, hon Minister.





The other issues that have been raised by hon Masipa, I take it



that they were observations, because I don’t think they were questions. For some of them, I think that it will be good to engage about them to have a better appreciation of how stolen meat from stock theft ended up in our chain stores. I am not sure about that, and I wouldn’t like to comment about the allegations that one does not have proof of.



With regards to the issue of foot and mouth, and how we are maintaining animal health as a country? That is one of our priorities. We have actually increased our veterinary capacity and also working with other MECs of agriculture in various provinces and MECs of Economic Development, to ensure that they support us in the surveillance as well as the maintenance of our red zone, as we know that South Africa does have foot and mouth SA type 1 and type 2 in areas bordering the Kruger Park as well as in the areas of Northern Natal, particularly around Ingwavuma areas.



So, what is important is how do we maintain those redline zone so that we can create a buffer between the Buffaloes in the parks, as well as the livestock in particular. One of the things that we have done working with the Office International des Epizooties, OIE, is to actually have a compartmentalisation process, as well as between the red line and where the communities are, to have an



area that can be protected and allow our farmers to vaccinate so that they can protect livestock against foot and mouth.



Fortunately, we are working with the red meat industry to ensure that such is maintained. It is also important that our farmers on an ongoing basis vaccinate their animals at a prescribed time, where they have to deal with various animal health issues.

Secondly, it’s also important, that even when farmers, particularly the commercial farmers, have got their own private vets, they work close with the state veterinarians so that we can pick up diseases on time. As you know, that the problem that we had in Limpopo last year emanated from one of the auctions at commercial farms, then it spread out.



So, it is important to make sure that, when we pick up any disease or a condition that we are not aware of, particularly for those of us that are farming with livestock, we report immediately to the veterinarian so that immediate diagnosis and treatment can be given on time and protect the head of a number of our communities, as well as the export of our products to the international as well as the local market. Thank you very much.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Through you, Deputy Speaker, Minister, the agricultural economist, has indicated that the agriculture in the



country has been resilient despite the lockdown regulations, as work in various farms continued, as a result, the sector will have its second largest rain harvest in 1920 season, for instance. It is however your big and fully capitalised farmers who were able to withstand the Covid storm. The poorly capitalised smallholders who are predominantly black, have been left out and dry.



What interventions will you be making to ensure that smallholder farmers are provided with the necessary technical and financial support to be able to contribute meaningfully towards the reconstruction of the agricultural sector post COVID-19? Thank you, Chairperson.





MOTLATSAMMUSAKGOTLA: Ke go bone fa o nyenya. Ke ne ke re ...





... Minister, please.





am not sure who was smiling between Mr Montwedi and myself. But in any way ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t worry, Madam Minister.





Rre Montwedi o a itsi gore ke bua ka ene.





Oh, thank you very much. Indeed, hon Montwedi was forced to smile because he knows very well that, as part of the interventions of government in dealing with the impact of COVID-19 in the agricultural sector, we have prioritised smallholder farmers in terms of the support that was given during that period.



We will continue to do so, not only for smallholder farmers even though they are the most vulnerable, but to the entirety of the farm sector because food security, for the country is important and therefore, we need to support all those who are producers, be they big or small. Thank you very much.



Mr W M THRING: Through you, Deputy Speaker, Minister, it is wellknown that despite South Africa, having had harshest of lockdown which estimated most other sectors, the agricultural sector performed very well nonetheless.



What tactical steps has your department taken to enhance and protect our food security, ensuring that this productive sector is not going to be used as a racial or political football, or do you



agree that any call for the burning of farms as an excitement to cause harm, threatens food security in our country, it is tantamount to treason and should be treated as such? Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Just before the hon minister, Deputy Speaker, there is a point of order from the House.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is the point of order?



MEMBER FROM THE FLOOR: Deputy Speaker, I wanted to ask, is hon Thring wearing a gown?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, that is not a point of order. Go ahead hon Thring.



Mr W M THRING: Deputy Speaker, I have warned this to Parliament before and received lots of comments. So, I think that the member obviously has not seen me wearing a shirt in Parliament often enough. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He’s impressed. Go ahead, mam.





Deputy Speaker, indeed, we are getting into the line of fashion and as the Minister of Agriculture I must say that I am impressed because our garments are made out of cotton and some are made out of wool, which are all agricultural commodities. So, those who then process and deal with the textile like hon Patel, I’m sure that he will be impressed about this debate concerning the observations on the dress code of members.



With regards to the issue that hon Thring has raised, as I speak, we are actually in conversation with agriculture and agribusiness entrepreneurs, both small and big, black and white, on mapping out the agriculture and agricultural sector plan, of which most discussions are looking at how we expand the scale, how we become inclusive, what forms of support is needed to actually make sure that our producers can produce effectively.



Access to finance and access to markets, are other issues that we are looking at, and also training and capacity building to make sure that our new entrance who come into the space, are actually enabled to participate and understand this industry as they must. So, there are plans in place to make sure that we can have the agricultural sector that is inclusive and prosperous. Thank you very much.



Question 473:




Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon Winkler, I have met with Minister Didiza and I have said to her that we don’t support the commercial sale of lion meat for human consumption. Thank you very much.



Ms H S WINKLER: Thank you so much, Deputy Speaker, and to the hon Minister Creecy thank you for your response. I did have a follow up and I am not sure that it’s redundant, but I am going to go ahead nonetheless. How do you reconcile the independent legal sale of lion meat for human and animal consumption, should be amendment to Schedule 1 of the meat safety and go ahead with the high court ruling of Judge Jody Kollapen, which says that any wildlife legislation that is an act needs to take into consideration the welfare of the said animals involved? This is especially in light of the numerous welfare incidents that have been revealed in the Captivity industry. Thank you.





It’s not reconcilable. Thank you. [Applause.]



Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, I will be taking the follow-up question on behalf of hon Paulsen.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, okay go ahead.



Ms N N CHIRWA: The Schedule specifically include lion meat, the act thus reads as follows I quote:



This act also applies to all other species of animals not mentioned above, including birds, fish and reptiles and that may be slaughtered as food for human and animal consumption

... The Schedule includes animals that may be listed as threaten species in accordance with the conservation provision. Therefore, they are slaughtered for human and animal consumption must be in line with the relevant conservation provision.



Currently, Minister, people breed lions for canned hunting, the meat has been consumed and I doubt that we are ever going to win this battle. We are speaking about an industry of about R4 billion per year. The risk of poaching increases consistently and gradually. My question then to you Minister is: Will the Department of Environment Affairs, Forest and Fisheries be ready with the relevant conservation provisions, including safety of these animals in state-owned reserves and National Parks that will ensure that human greed through poaching does not drive lions into extinction. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.





Thank you, hon member, at the moment, the lion population in the world is stable and not threatened in our National Parks. Thank you. [Applause.]





Mnu N SINGH: Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo, hhayi, uNgqongqoshe udiniwe namhlanje. Uyabona ukuthi udiniwe kakhulu, ... kodwa Sekela Somlomo ...





. ... hon Minister thank you for your response and the request made to the Department of Agriculture and we hope that the Minister of Agriculture takes this particular proposal very seriously. I think it would be very irresponsible for us to consider extending the list on Schedule 1 as proposed. Given that we know of the COVID-19 pandemic resulted from wild animals. I think all the pandemics, SARS ... everybody ... and all of them came from bats and other wildlife animals. So, will you continue putting the pressure on the Minister of Agriculture that during this time here, we would rather err on the side of caution and not allow the sale of wildlife meat products to the market. Thank you.





Singh, I am not angry today. I just don’t like silly questions. However, your question is sensible and let me say that we have an excellent relationship with our sister department. We have discussed the issue of contradiction between these proposed regulations and the threatened and protected species, tops regulations. We have discussed the risk of synotic diseases. We have a number of working groups and I am sure that through those processes, we will find each other. Thank you very much.



Ms S G N MBATHA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, the follow-up question reads like this: The Meat Safety Act will affect ... where Africans indigenous society prepare their meat for various traditional activity and customs. The Meat Safety Act will address many of the concerns raised around meat safety such as listeriosis. What is the impact on other economy associated with lack of meat safety standards and regulations and how will the Meat Safety Act ensure the development of meat industry within our most underdeveloped townships? Thank you.





supposed, I am not really qualified to answer that, but my understanding is that the act primarily deals with the question of safety of domesticated animals for human consumption and



endeavours to deal with the condition under which those animals are slaughtered so that human beings are not put at risk.



As I say ... I am not really qualified to answer, but what I do know from work that was done in my province of origin in Gauteng, is that when it comes to traditional ceremonies and the likes, its important that there are outreach programmes that work with communities, on how slaughtering takes place, and how to ensure safety under those conditions. The regulations alone are not going to manage that situation effectively, if there aren’t suitable outreach programmes. Thank you very much.



Question 484:




Hon Deputy Speaker, before I answer the hon Matiase I just want to thank my colleague Minister Creecy. She was very competent in answering that question. She understands the Meat Safety Act very well. Hence she has engaged us on the issue of lion meat and we do indeed appreciate the concerns that have been raised and we are going to address.



To the question of hon Matiase, in respect of Babanango land restitution claim in Ulundi Local Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal, I think it is important for me to give a background to this land



claim so that we can have an appreciation of the complexities around it.



The Emcakwini land claim was lodged by Mr E Z Buthelezi in December 1998, in compliance with section 11(1)(a) and section 11(2) of the Restitution of Land Rights Act 22 of 1994 as amended. A Government Gazette notice was issued in February 2005 stating that a land claim has been instituted in Babanango, inviting those who have interest to make their submissions.



The total land under claim is 30 321 000 hectares and a 194 claimants who came forth were verified. Upon completion of the research process in accordance with the Act the claim was settled in phases amounting to a total of 24 000 hectares. Phase one the acquisition of 10 000 hectares was done in March 2007. Phase two the acquisition was done in 2007 September, whilst the first one was in March 2007. Phase three acquisition was done in August 2011.



The commission at the time dealt with individuals who had been dispossessed their right of land around Babanango under the claim which was lodged by Mr Eric Buthelezi on behalf of individual families who were affected by forced removals in Babanango.



Subsequent to the settlement of this Babanango claim or Emcakwini land claim as it is known other claims were lost under Mr Buthelezi which included Mr Gabela a counter claimant was lodged by Mr Zungu which affected the 52 farms, for 52 different communities on the already settled claim in the entire district of Babanango which was gazetted in December 2019.



Sixteen of the 52 farms have been restored to the Emcakwini community. Objections were submitted from Emcakwini, kwaZiqongwana and Qangqatho communities.



Upon receipt of the complaint, through the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature, the Minister and the Deputy Minister Skwatsha held discussions with the legislature including government development entities under the Ministry of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment to develop a programme of action in attending to these challenges that were raised.



One of the agreed action was for the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights to undertake an investigation and embark on a consultative process with all affected claimants. An interim connecting forum was established to facilitate this process.

Ministers of Agriculture, Land Reform and Development as well as Forestry, Fisheries and Environment met to discuss these



challenges and agreed on a programme of action which included engaging with the provincial legislature as well as the provincial government and its agencies settled claimants as well as the new claimants and other relevant stakeholders particularly that there are investors already who are developing a game farm in that area.



The 16 farms that are under claim as lodged by Mr Zungu has been referred to the Land Claims Court in accordance of the provisions of the Restitution Land Rights Act. The Land Claims Court is the only body that can amend or change any previously claimed based on the evidence before it.



The matter has been attended to with all its complexities. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon Matiase.





Mr M K MONTWEDI: Kakopo kiMontwedi ntate.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Golokile. Tswelapile ntate Montwedi.






Mr M K MONTWEDI: Hon Minister, I hear your saying there is a planned programme on intervening on that issue of Babanango. We have written to you about this subject before and as we speak, we have community members whose land has be taken away from them through a trust not known to the very same community members. A trust that is only recognised by your department with claimants not known what role is this trust playing there.



Now, we have a farm in Gauteng, Klipad farm in Gauteng, with the portion of Grootvlei in Mpumalanga and many other farms that you have restored to the communities, but people come and impose themselves and take the land away from them.



Now Minister, why have you not taken the lead to go and meet with the Babanango and the affected communities because you meeting with the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature will not solve anything because the message is not going down to the beneficiaries who are actually in pain. Why if you do not want to meet with the Babanango community and resolve the matter and why have you only left this matter in the hands of the provincial government, despite their glaring failure to deal with issues raised by the Babanango community and many other communities in the country because your provincial departments have proven to be incapable of



assisting farmers where such situations arise? Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]





think the hon Montwedi is clouding issues. He is not correctly reflecting on the Babanango matter. On the Babanango matter – and I think Deputy Speaker it is important and I am sorry I might take over two minutes – you had a claim lodged by Mr Buthelezi and another one lodged by Mr Zungu. These communities were staying in the same area. However, the other one of Mr Zungu wanted to lodge a jurisdictional claim if I were to call it that way.



In the process, it was clear that the Mr Zungu claim did not meet in terms of the legislation the requirements. The members of the community who have lodged under Mr Zungu agreed to be part of the land claim of Emcakwini which is the same area because their land rights would have been addressed and they were addressed. I think it is important for us to realise that when people were moved and the consolidations of farms happened, you would find that a farm belonging to Mr Van Niekerk, you had a community of Msane and the Didiza on the same piece of land which is now a combined territorial you know space and insight that claim. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.





You cannot cut it into two. In that discussion members of the community at the time agreed with the settlement process. What is happening now, is that those members who are part of those who lodged their claim under Mr Zungu, are now saying they do not want to be part of the Emcakwini Trust. So, it is not somebody who has come and imposed themselves.



That is why we are saying to unravel that claim, in terms of the Restitution of Land Rights Act you have to go to the Land Claims Court and state the matter. The forum has been working on this. I am not sure about the physical visit of the Minister or the Deputy Minister will solve anything. The processes by the Land Claims Court working with all other relevant stakeholders have actually come to this determination. I think that is the process that all of us must wait for, of this unbundling which must be dictated to by the court. Thank you. [Applause.]



The Deputy SPEAKER. Thank you, hon Minister. Let us give the hon Tshwete the opportunity. The hon Busi Tshwete in the House.



An HON MEMBER; She is not available.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, she is not available. Who want to take it up?



The hon Chief Whip you have to intervene. Who is taking over from the hon Busi Tshwete?



Ms N G ADOONS: Hon Adoons will be taking the follow-up Question, hon Deputy Speaker.






Ms N G ADOONS: Alright. Hon Minister thank you for the response. Can the Minister please explain what the department will do in ensuring that there is a greater co-operation and productivity amongst various beneficiaries of the Land Restitution Programmes and how will the department in future ensure the provision of skills and training for beneficiaries of our land reform programmes? Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]





Hon Deputy Speaker, though this is not a specific matter on the Babanango issue. It is general and I think it is important on what is the department doing in terms of postsettlement support to those who have been given land?



In terms of the Restitution Land Rights Act we have section 42(c) which allows the Minister to give resources towards postsettlement support which we have been giving. We have been successful in certain instances while there have been difficulties in others.

The difficulties have not been no support given. There have been tensions among communities either through the, Communal Property Association, CPA, executives who sometimes take the decisions contrary or without consulting the broader membership which then results into stalling the process of utilising the land productively. Thank you very much.



Ms A STEYN: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, since you have broadened your answer to the previous speaker’s question. I would now then like to broaden my question to you by saying: What is happening in the Babanango claim has been happening on a lot of land claims and you know Minister that the main reason for that is because the department has been clustering certain communities together. When they have claimed certain sections and parts to make it easier for the department and just thrown all the communities of that area under one claim and that is the main reason for the infighting that you have just mentioned.



Minister that is also one of the reasons why the DA is against reopening the land claims process because we know that in certain



areas communities will claim land that was now already given to other communities in a certain area because sometimes they were not even the original or the correct claimants of that land.



So, Minister what would your department do to ensure that all these areas where there are currently claimants in court to fight between different sections of land because your department has just clustered them all together under one claim? What will you do to solve all of that? Thank you Minister, because that will end a lot of 8 000 claims that are still outstanding?





Hon Steyn you have taken liberty to expand the question and I am willing to answer it.



However, I think it is also not correct or rather factual the statement you are making that the department decided to cluster claims to make it easy for itself. As I have explained in the Babanango case there were engagements between claimants who for one reason or other, have claimed pieces of land even though in terms of the extent those parts of farms were not the same. And it had been through agreements where communities have reflected on the matter through engagement with the Land Claims Commission and agreed to the consolidation of their claims.



Yes, there are times where you know people as any situation evolves they change their minds and they said we do not think we can actually work together in this space. How do we unbundle. The department has been attending to those matters where necessary court in terms of the Act which I am sure you know it as the member of the committee, what it states about the powers of the original Land Claims Commissioner and the National Landlord Commissioner in respect of their decisions and how those decisions can be reversed. Thank you very much.



Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, KwaZulu-Natal has the largest number of land claims backlog sitting at 3 415 outstanding land claims. The current challenge out of these hon Minister, you find now that the land that was claimed and gazetted has now been leased to certain individuals and farmers by the officials.



What is the position of the department with regard to leasing of the land that has already been gazetted as a claimed land? What is your take hon Minister on that?





The issue that the hon Cebekhulu is raising is an allegation because I do not think it has been formally brought to me to say



to me that this official has done this. I think we can investigate and check. However, in an instance where land has been claimed and has been gazetted, the people who are already on that land per agreement with the claimants that the person can continue until the claim is resolved. It has been happening and it does happen.

For it is until a claim has been settled that the ownership changes to the claimants as opposed to the original owner.



So, if there are matters where a claim has been concluded and then the officials lease it then it would not be in accordance of the procedures and rules that we have to follow. So, we would appreciate if Inkosi Cebekhulu can actually highlight what those instances are and we would follow it up. Thank you very much.



Question 464:




you, Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the hon Faku for the question that she asked. Of course, the process of licensing of spectrum is led by the Independent Communications Authority of SA, Icasa, which is our authority. Indeed, we issued invitations to apply, the time period of which came to an end in October 2020.

Once that happened, again, if you read the invitation to apply, or the ITA, it aimed to promote broad-based black economic empowerment with particular attention paid to the needs of women,



opportunities for youth and the challenges faced by persons with disabilities.



In the first ITA – two were issued – there were disqualification criteria in terms of which applicants were either disqualified if they had less than 30% equity ownership by historically disadvantaged persons, or if a company was below a level 4 contributor, which is BBBBEE status, in terms of the Codes of Good Practice published in terms of section 9(1) of the BBBEE Act.



The second ITA for the Wireless Open Access Network, Woan, sets the following mandate for comment. There is a new amount of 70% equity ownership that must be held by South African citizens and at least 50% of equity ownership must be held by persons from historically disadvantaged groups with voting powers, and not less than 50% ownership, again, must be held by black people, as defined in section 1 of the BBBEE Act with voting powers, and at least 20% must be owned by black women.



Further, it must include directivity of ownership to ensure meaningful participation of all entities involved including small- and medium-sized businesses. The release of more spectrum is intended to reduce the cost to communicate which should also benefit townships and rural communities. The obligations set out



in the ITA also allow network ... [Inaudible.] ... which supports


... [Inaudible.] ... an approach that is employment focused in terms of providing coverage starting with underserved local and metropolitan areas. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Ms P FAKU: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, and thank you, Minister, for your response. Minister, could you tell us when the spectrum licensing process will be finalised? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.





so much, hon Deputy Speaker, and hon Faku. Of course, as the authority has indicated, the process after the ITA that I spoke about earlier has 60 days, which closes on 28 December 2020, and, according to Icasa, is obliged during the issuing of the ITA the auction of the ... [Inaudible.] ... spectrum, which is planned for completion by no later than 31 March 2021. The second ITA for the individual electronic communications network services, or ECNS, licence, which is meant for Woan, will close on 30 March 2021.

They will be following a beauty contest which will apply in the case of Woan. The winning bidder for the ECNS licence for Woan will be automatically awarded the spectrum reserved for Woan.

That’s it, hon Deputy Speaker, and hon member. Thank you so much.



Mr C MACKENZIE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Good afternoon to you. We’ve repeatedly asked the Minister to state categorically whether the many stories in the media about her husband being involved in the affairs of the department, in the entities and in the tenders issued are true or not. She has consistently denied any wrongdoing and has asked those with evidence of any wrongdoing to go lay a charge at the SA Police Service. We applaud this sentiment and congratulate the Minister on that proposal.



The proposed Wireless Open Access Network, Woan, that is meant ...








Mr C MACKENZIE: Point of order, Speaker. Could the Minister control herself on the platform and at least have the decency and respect to listen to the question?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Inaudible.]



Mr C MACKENZIE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The proposed Wireless Open Access Network is meant to facilitate the entry of historically disadvantaged individuals and provide access to the growing telecommunications sector to the poor and the



disadvantaged. We raise the issue of influence peddling, because the hyenas that are sniffing around and looking for a lucrative slice of this Woan are worlds apart from what could be considered to be truly broad-based economic participation. These salivating beasts are part of a connected political elite, people like the former communications department director-general Mr ... [Inaudible.] ... and the infamous Mr Rolls of the self-serving Progressive Blacks in ICT – no one knows where they came from – who are always seen in the media carrying the Minister’s handbag and providing unqualified support.



Given the preponderance of corruption so deeply rotting the soul of our country, my question is a simple one: Could the Minister tell South Africa whether she considers influence peddling, that favours the connected, to be a corrupt activity, and could she tell South Africans, especially the always excluded poor – they are always referred to but seldom served – what steps she will take to ensure that this corrupt practice doesn’t happen in the formation of the Woan which, by all accounts, is simply a vehicle to make the new bloated elite even fatter? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.





you, Deputy Speaker, and apologies for earlier. Hon Mackenzie, as



I’ve told you 25 times ... I’m going to say it 1 000 times more, as you bring allegations against my husband – I want to repeat ...



Mr C MACKENZIE: I’m sorry, Deputy Speaker ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon Mackenzie. You were listened to. You will listen to her. You were listened to and you will ...



Mr C MACKENZIE: [Inaudible.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no, no. You keep quiet and allow the Minister to respond to you. I didn’t interrupt you, by the way. Go ahead, Minister.





Mackenzie, I will tell you this one million times: Stop politicking about corruption. If you believe that the allegations or any acts of ... [Inaudible.] ... around that, go to the law enforcement authorities, so that we deal with corruption once and for all. I did inform you several times that as the ANC government we are very committed to rooting out corruption and that includes me and my husband if we are affected.



I want to tell you that I am responding for the last time to this and I won’t allow you, hon member, to keep on trying to blackmail me because you have whatever that you have. Stop politicking about matters that affect the lives of our people and do the right thing as an hon member: Go and report corruption where you suspect it or have evidence of it.



Now, coming to the question that you asked, hon member, I just want to highlight one thing. Woan is meant to address the imbalances of the past. I want to apologise to you upfront that you feel so offended that the people of South Africa, who never benefited from spectrum earlier on, must not be given an opportunity. There is no body that qualified in the process that is ranked by the regulator that you appointed as Parliament that will be discriminated against simply because, according to you, that person has connections to the ANC or whoever.



Now, for the last part, hon Mackenzie, you say that Woan is just an element to enrich a few bloated elites. I understand where you are coming from, hon member, because having been part of the elite that took everything from the people of the country you may feel threatened and you don’t believe that the people of this country are well deserving ... [Inaudible.] ... enjoy the benefits that your ancestors and others believed they were entitled to – these



economic spinoffs – and who you believe must enjoy them. Unfortunately, hon Mackenzie, this is the policy and the regulator made it and whoever benefits will benefit based on what the authority has defined.



Once more, as you are aware, I am the Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies and I don’t get involved in the process of awarding Woan or any other spectrum. Please make sure you read the Act properly that you are responsible for in Parliament, so that when you speak here there can be a difference, hon member, from somebody who is involved in the work of communications and who is also a Member of Parliament who passes law that is very clear in terms of the rules of who must do what and who must not do what. I can answer that question as can any other ordinary member of South Africa. And, I don’t expect that from a member who has been on the portfolio committee who ... [Inaudible.] ... cannot have a difference of ... [Inaudible.] That is the Minister’s responsibility; that is the authority’s responsibility.



Again, I will not allow you, hon Mackenzie, to undermine the interventions that we are making of ensuring that our people that were left behind in economic chaos and who were deprived ... [Inaudible.] Woan is here and the regulator will apply whatever model and, of course, these qualifying individuals will benefit



just like those who benefited previously. If you believe that those ones who have access to spectrum, unlike the new ... [Inaudible.] ... that you are looking at, it was because the spectrum connected as ... [Inaudible.] ... intended. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]



The House adjourned at 18:07.



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