Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 19 Aug 2020
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 19 AUGUST 2020
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
PLENARY (HYBRID)
The House met at 15:02.
The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
FILLING IN OF VACANCY IN NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DUE TO PASSING ON OF MR Z J PETER
(Announcement)
The House Chairperson announced that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly due to the passing of Mr Z J Peter had been filled by the nomination of Ms P T Mpushe with effect from
14 August 2020.
The member has made and subscribed the oath with the Deputy Speaker through the virtual platform.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY:
CLUSTER 1 – PEACE AND SECURITY
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The only item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the Ministers in cluster one which is Peace and Security. There are four supplementary Questions on each Question. Parties have given an indication of which Questions their members wish to pose as a supplementary Question. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose.
This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.
The members who will pose supplementary Questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary Questions, the principle of fairness among others has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary Question through virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the Question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary Questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next Question on the Question Paper.
The first Question has been asked by hon V C Xaba to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. I have been informed that the Minister will be answering Questions through the virtual platform. May I now invite ...
Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Chair, it’s Ngwezi on the virtual platform. I am sorry to disturb you, but I wanted to report that the Questions that were going to be taken by the hon Inkosi Cebekhulu will be taken by myself. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much for the information. No problem. Hon Bilankulu J, I think we need to assist you. Your name is always coming up when we are in session. Please ensure that you mute your microphone. May I now invite the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Mrs Nqakula, to respond to Question 281 as asked by the hon Xaba.
Is the Minister connected? How am I assisted on this one? We are still trying to locate the hon Minister Nqakula. Okay, we will come back to the hon Minister Nqakula. Is the Minister of Police on the platform? Can we continue to you?
Mr T N MMUTLE: The Minister is waiting on the platform. May the administrators allow the Minister of Defence in. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you for the info. In the meantime, can I check if the Minister of Police is there? Mr Cele, are you there?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, I am here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, the Question that you are going to respond to Minister Cele, is Question 266, asked by the hon Shaik Emam.
Question 266:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Chair. Thank you, hon members and good afternoon. The reply would go as such. The abovementioned matter forms part of a bigger investigation project. The Director of Public Prosecutions instructed that the investigation be done holistically and recommended that an application for the independent forensic firm be submitted in order to ascertain the extent of the alleged fraud and corruption at the University of KwaZulu-Natal. The date of the arrest cannot be indicated at this stage as investigations are ongoing and once finalised, the docket will be submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, for decision. Thank you, Chair.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chair and thank you Minister for your response. Minister, this matter was discussed with General Lebeya previously, and there’s two aspects to this; one, is the investigation and corruption that took place at the University of KwaZulu-Natal and separately there is the issue of this particular suspect in this matter, Reshal Dayanand, who posed as a doctor, faked his qualification and was accepted by the Health Professional Council who gave a report. The University of KwaZulu-Natal, UKZN, investigation also gave a report and in my last discussion with General Lebeya, he gave the assurance that indeed that the matter should be taken separately and differently, okay. Again, said that the matter was now brought to the National Prosecuting Authority to be dealt with. Since then, we’ve heard nothing about this, hon Minister.
Can you, please, confirm what do you believe is the problem in terms of that? What has happened now particularly with Reshal Dayanand had nothing to do with the separate incident that took place in the University of KwaZulu-Natal which involved a whole lot of students that had perhaps gained entry to the university itself.
So, it’s two completely different matters. This man faked his qualifications to qualify or to prove that he was a doctor. He was accepted and he practiced. He put hundreds of people’s lives at risk ... [Inaudible.] ... over 700,000 in pain and that’s the matter I am asking to be dealt with, Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, that is already included in the response. The investigations as the hon member says, continued. The Director of Public Prosecutions instructed that investigation be done holistically. Every kind of investigation must be made, that will include the forensics and then ascertain the extent of alleged fraud and corruption and it will be given to the DPP for decision. So, yes, they sound like they are separated but the instruction from the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, was that it must be put in a holistically way and investigated in that way. Thanks.
Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you, House Chair. This question deals with the incredibly important issue of faked qualifications and it highlights the importance of ensuring our own public servants and police officers in the SA Police Service are suitably qualified.
In 2012, the Judicial Board of Inquiry found that the Minister was unfit to hold the position of National Police Commissioner and was discharged. One might even say dishonorably discharged. In 2018, the National Police Commissioner instructed the SA Police Service to desist from referring to the Minister as minister general. It is alleged that he suggested that it may even be illegal to refer to the Minister as “general” In light of the question raised by the hon member regarding fake qualifications, can the Minister explain how he is qualified to be a general and if he is not, would you then consider himself to be a fake general?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, the hon member surely he’s following the matters. He knows that, that dismissal was overturned and dismissed by the court of law. The judge sitting in the court of law dismissed the finding of those commissions of the national commissioner not fit for the office.
So, if that hon member really respects the law, he would know that the finding or the decision of the judge sitting in the court of law really dismissed that. The second one, I’m sure again, you would understand that all generals they don’t lose their title of being “generals” the only thing that you say is to indicate that you are a retired general. We can talk about that just to educate him a little bit about those matters but as it stands, it says so. Thank you.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, in terms of the annual count statistics 2019-2020, it is noted with concern
that educational institutions are becoming hotbeds for social violence. 380 cases of rape were reported at either schools, universities, colleges and daycare facilities. What actions would specifically be taken to address this very worrying increase?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, the question has very little to do with the follow up but definitely the question would be answered. It is true it is a worrying trend that the education institutions have become some hotbeds for crime, including murder, by the way, rape and assault grievous bodily harm, GBH. As for that, we have developed as a SA Police Service, the strategy of the safe campuses. We have the law sheet at Tshwane University of Technology, TUT, I think early last year or late the year before but we are expanding it to work with the institution.
Also, the same Minister has met the heads of the universities, almost all universities, we met here in Johannesburg after the murder of Uyinene in the Western Cape to work with the principals of the universities. We will also be meeting with the principals of Technical Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges.
So, we are working together to try to work on that matter. It is a matter that we’re trying to handle with care and is the matter that ourselves we are worried about and the matter that we will
put an end. Our kids must be safe when they are in the institution of learning. Thank you very much.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Thank you Minister for your reply. Under normal circumstances, the Hawks, when they had the assurance that the case before them is tight enough and they announced that imminent arrest is about to happen, and then it does not happen. Can the Minister inform us, while I understood his response about investigation taking place, the question is, when the Hawks stop proceedings after their promise ... [Inaudible.] ... that there is any form of interference from a senior politician, or they’ve changed their mind or what could be the reason for them to stop if there was no interference from a senior? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Reverend. Most of the time as the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, investigate they try to go thorough as they can. The other way of thoroughness is that they work with the prosecution so that you have a prosecution directed investigation. So that by the time we go to court we are more tightened and we are more solid. It could happen that as we look at the case, we find that they are ready as they work with their colleagues in the prosecution, they say you go do this, and that would delay.
Well, another thing I don’t know why they would announce that they are about to arrest. Theirs is to arrest not to announce the arrest. If that happens I hope that it’ll be checked and has to come to an end. However, they would be to now and again working with their counterparts in prosecution discover that there are still some loopholes and then they work on those loopholes that might delay the actual arrest of that particular individual. Thank you very much.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, Chair. Chair, with all due respect and I didn’t want to stop the Minister. Tshepo Mhlongo, he was busy in Tops liquor store. Can we, please, ensure that this comrade get out of the liquor store and come to the work of Parliament, because the guy was in Tops liquor store as we speak. So, that such things ... can the information technology, IT, please, ensure that these videos make it to your office, Chair, because it is ridiculous that some of us make times and others are just in Tops and drinking wine. It is improper. It’s ridiculous.
We can’t be reduced like this. Thank you very much.
An HON MEMBER: It is Tshepo Mhlongo of the Democratic Alliance, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair. I want to support the previous speaker because it was during our leader’s response when there was a video of someone and now it appears that it was in Tops liquor store and we object in strongest term because not only did it interrupt our member, but obviously, that member should be sitting at home and be monitoring as Parliament is sitting. This impacts on the decorum of the House as well. Thank you.
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, Chairperson, please. Several members are bringing unsubstantiated allegations against a member of this House and as you know the way to do that is through a motion and I would ask that you rule accordingly. Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Point of order, Chair. Yes, Chairperson the member who’s just spoken now is the one who is out of order because all of us saw that video and the hon member of the IFP is correct in raising a concern about somebody who is walking at tops while the person is connected to Parliament. So,
there’s no substantial motion that needs to be brought to their House when we all saw the video of that member walking at a liquor store. We all saw it. I also had my hand up because I wanted to raise the same concern. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon McKenzie, please, I did not allow you to speak. May I, please, rule on this matter? We will. We will go back to the video and identify what is happening and that will be reported to the Office of the Speaker for process. Thank you very much. We now go back and I’m informed that the hon Minister Nqakula is now on the platform. We apologise for you waiting outside, hon Minister.
Question 281:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Madam Chair and
hon members, thank you very much for your patience. I am very sorry, I was behind the screen here and seemingly I had a problem with the iPad that I am using and right now I am using my cellphone. My sincere apologies to the House. Hon House Chairperson, the Question is 281 from hon Xaba. Just to say yes, the suppliers involved in the consumer database have been identified. The companies are not yet blacklisted as the legal process must be first finalised.
However, the department issued the company’s report with a warning letter. No awards invitations to the supply of patrol aviation have been made to this company since the incident. Suppliers are currently barred from doing business with the Department of Defence pending the outcome of the criminal investigation. The matter is under investigation Chairperson. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Before we continue can you please ask people who are assisting you in the office not to be in camera, please?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very
much, Madam Speaker.
Mr V C XABA: Hon Madam House Chair, thank you, hon Minister for the reply and I must say we were all alarmed by these facts.
Arising from the reply, how much was paid to the suppliers involved in the alleged fraudulent activity referred to in the reply? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Xaba, the goods
are to the value of R28 million which was paid for through the company. Besides the investigations being conducted, I have directed the Chief of the SA National Defence Force to make sure
that we get our money back. In fact, I have directed that the bank accounts of the company involved should be frozen. I was informed that that is a matter which can only be handled by law enforcement agencies because I was saying the department should do it. So, I am assuming that as they are investigating this matter that should be done. Thank you, Chair.
Mr E J MARAIS: Thank you Chair for the opportunity. Minister, has the Chief of logistics and his procurement process been investigated? This is especially regarding the inflated prices of not only Russians but the essential Covid-19 related as well.
Mr X NQOLA: Hon House chairperson, on a point of order: with the start of this hybrid virtual, we have been discussing what is admissible background. The hon member is terrorising us with the fighting machines at his back while he is addressing us. Can he please adhere to the background rules admissible to the House?
Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Thank you for that. Hon Marais, looking at that background you have shown I am also feeling not comfortable. Please we just have to ask you to have another background. Hon members, there is a lot of noise and I do not know where it comes from. Is it the picture or it is leaving?
Mr E J MARAIS: No, it is not. Hon Chair, if I can proceed? I have changed it but just remember that it is an aircraft of the SA Air Force and this is our question to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans so it is very much proper in this regard.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): No, thank you for changing it. Thank you very much.
Mr E J MARAIS: I am a proud member of the committee.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Hon Marais, please! Please.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: we agreed on the background. That hon member cannot come and justify how patriotic he is or not. He must just change, keep quiet and adhere to the procedure of the House. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Thank you, Chief Whip I think the Ruling has already been made and thank you for changing that. Let me just say to all the members, the background of Parliament has been given but if you are in another environment let it not show pictures or anything. We have allowed it to happen
but those pictures make sure that you do not use them in your background. Thank you.
Mr E J MARAIS: Minister, has the Chief of logistics and his procurement process been investigated? This is especially regarding the inflated prices of not only Russians but the essential Covid-19 related equipment as well. If so, why were surgical masks procured from China not properly specified in terms of World Health Organisation’s standards with prices allegedly inflated to three times higher than were available elsewhere? How could that happen that many of these masks were reported, after they were received, cheap, overpriced, non-medical and non- surgical masks? What are you going to do about the various apparent and shameless abuse, mismanagement and wasteful expenditure? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Madam Speaker,
let me thank hon Marais about the question. The matter of the personal protective equipment, PPE whether there was an inflation of the prices and whether they were procured is a matter that is being dealt with by the ... [Inaudible.] centre which consist of several law enforcement agencies. So, I would rather not answer that question and wait for the right time and wait for the people
who say inflated the prices or rather who are allegedly inflated the prices to answer that question for themselves.
But then to say on this particular matter of the food supplies, the matter is being investigated by the Military Police. If the company belongs to the civilians it is a clear criminal case if it also affects our people, then it will be referred to the SA Police Service. I know that, at least two weeks ago, there are still investigations being conducted by the Military Police. Thank you.
Mr W T I MAFANYA: Hon House Chair, the case of Broadland Supplier supplying food packs that have expired to the military is an indication of how this integration desists of checks and balances on required to maintain order in the military has become. The 2014 Defence Review noted this degeneration in the ... [Inaudible.] and stated that the army was too poorly equipped and funded to execute their widely spectrum of tasks to the desired level. Hon Minister, what have you done to arrest a general decline in the quality of our military and to strengthen ... [Inaudible.] in the SA National Defence Force? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Madam Speaker,
may I just indicate to the hon member that I am prepared and ready
to answer that question but that question is really not a follow up to the question at hand. Thank you very much, hon member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Hon members, I think we know the rules of the follow up questions that you have to ask and that there should not be new questions. A supplementary question must arise directly from the principal question and the reply given there may not constitute a new question. I just want to state to those who will be replying to questions that you will make a choice to either answer or not. Also, a supplementary question may not consist of more than one question. That is just a reminder and the reply to the supplementary question will be limited to two minutes.
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekile, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngiyathokoza ngezimpendulo ozinikezayo kodwa ngicela ukubuza ukuthi, zikhona yini izinhlelo ezenziwe kusukela kwenzakala umkhonyovu ongaka emnyangweni wakho owuholayo?
Izinhlelo ezizosiza ukuthi ngokuzayo izinto ezifana nalezi zingenzeki futhi obani manje asebezolekelela ukuhlinzeka umbutho wethu wamasosha ukuthi balekelele ngokuhlinzeka ngokudla. Futhi ngabe ...
English:
... have they been properly vetted ...
IsiZulu:
... labo bantu? Ngiyathokoza.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELEKO NAMAGQALA OMKHOSI: Lungu
elihloniphekileyo, sikwisigaba sokupapasha isithuba somntu njengoko usazi nawe njengelungu elikwikomiti yethu ...
English:
... that of a Deputy Director General of the Supply Chain Management but on the second point of saying ...
IsiXhosa:
... senzani ngalo mba? Ukususela kuqhambuko lwesi sifo saqala ngoko ukufuna izinto zokusincedisa ekulweni nale Covid-19.
Ndakhupha umthetho phaya ...
English
... to the Military Command and the Secretariat of the Defence Force that while we are busy with the procurement processes ...
IsiXhosa:
... abaphicothi-zincwadi bomkhosi (internal auditors) mabaqwalasele ngemehlo elibukhali zonke izicelo zezininki-maxabiso kuquka ukupapashwa kwezithuba zeziniki-maxabiso. Kufuneka baqwalasele nazo zonke iinkampani ezenza izicelo zeziniki-maxabiso ukuqalela mhla kwaphuma isibhengezo sokupapashwa kwalo nkqubo.
Konke okwenziwayo okunxulumene neziniki-maxabiso zeempahla zokuzikhusela kwiCovid-19 kuya kwenziwa phambi kwaba baphicothi- zincwadi bomkhosi ukuze yonke inkqubo ihambe ngohlobo oluselubala nolungafihlakalanga. Loo nto iya kwenza kubonakale ukuba umthetho ulandelwe kwaye inqande nokunyuswa kwamaxabiso ngokubaxekileyo.
Yinkqubo le eza kuthi ilandelwe kuzo zonke izicelo zeziniki- maxabiso ukubheka phambili. Enkosi kakhulu, Sihlalo weNdlu.
Question 292:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the department did not budget for Covid-19 pandemic in the 2019-20 financial year. But in respect of the present financial year 2020-21, the department reprioritised funds within its baseline to create a Covid-19 fund which was put at R22 million on 7 April. On 20 May, it was increased by a further R17 million. So, the total available up to this far to fight Covid-19 on the Department of Home Affairs was R39 million and we will keep on reprioritising if the situation demands that.
Now when the National State of Disaster was declared, the Treasury determined emergency procurement processes. The following National Treasury instructions were issued: Issued No 8, instruction No 8 of 2019-20 on 19 March. Number three, on the 5 April and then another one on 28 April. And the last one on 6 May, measures responsible ... [Interjections.]. Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon, Thozana? Before the Minister continue I will check the minutes, Minister. Thozana, please mute your gadget. Thank you. I am sorry for that, hon Minister. You still have your minutes to respond.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes. Thank you, Chair. With these Treasury instructions, we followed them to the latter and the department in this regard used petty cash, transversal contracts and request for quotations. The department never issued any bills or any traditional tender in the way that tenders are issued. And we believe the process we followed was fair, transparent and competitive.
There was a total of 441 transactions out of which 218 were petty cash amounting to R200 410 or 0,9% or close to 1% of the total expenditure because our total expenditure up to now is
R20 243 898 15 at the last calculation, which was 15 April.
The department has produced the spreadsheet on related transactions where we have put any money that has been spent, how much to which company, what did we buy etc. We gave that spread sheet to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on 7 August. We gave them again current spreadsheet yesterday. We will keep on adding more transactions as they become available and we will make this available to the portfolio committee or to Parliament. Thank you.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Thank you very much, hon Minister, for that very concrete and straightforward answer on record. It is clear that Home Affairs at this stage is on course. Now I want to know this, up to so far having spent this R20 million is there any allegations of impropriety by the department that you have picked up, if yes, can you elaborate on that, if not, what would you do if such allegations surfaces as a Minister?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Well, Chairperson, up to so far we followed closely the Treasury instruction that was issued on 28 April 2020, instruction No 5 of 2020-21 about maximum prices which were set for identifying personal protective equipment, PPE, items. In other words, there was a price range for cloth masks and for other items that are used, gloves and sanitisers. We instructed our officials that none of them is to go outside that
price range. Up to so far we haven’t seen anybody who went out of the price range. Even those who used petty cash in our offices we told them if they use petty cash to go to the nearest super market to buy PPEs like sanitisers etc, if they have exceeded the cash when they bring the invoice then we tell them they have to pay the amount themselves.
So, up to so far we haven’t picked up but if it gets picked up and we hope members of the portfolio committee because they have the spreadsheet which shows what was purchased and for how much, if they picked up anything let them report to us, it will be investigated. But Chairperson, we have also presented the spreadsheet to the Inter-Ministerial Committee led by Minister Lamola where they are going to check the companies that we have used. And if they find any impropriety we will send it to the law enforcement agencies like Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and the Hawks to investigate. Thank you very much.
Ms T A KHANYILE: Hon Minister, on 28 May April 2020 the Department of Home Affairs committed R1 million for PPE to each open ports of entry yet this expenditure has not been reported in any PPE expenditure report. What is the total spent on PPEs by the Department of Home Affairs at the ports of entry and why has this PPEs have not been reported? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, when we presented a progressive report on PPEs, which we did yesterday to the portfolio committee this question was raised because we did not show you expenditure for each and every area like the ports of entry. We said we will include them. All we did was to show expenditure per province and per head office and showed you that the total expenditure of R20 243 898. What we would do is to then go back and look per each of the port of entry that were opened. I think you will remember it was 35 of them then we will be able to present in Parliament. At the moment I really don’t have the figures here.
Ms L F TITO: Thanks House Chair. Thanks also to the Minister. Over the above amount the department spend only ensuring it is able to deal with the effect of Covid-19. Did the department benefit from any donations of PPEs and other Covid combating equipment? If so, who provided the donation and for what rand value were these donations? Thanks, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I am not aware of any donation given to the Department of Home Affairs. If there is maybe, I was not informed. But I am not aware of any. The PPEs which we bought and the spreadsheet that we presented to the value of the R20 million which we spent up to so far as I said come from
the budget of R59 million. If there was any donation, I am not aware of it. I have not been informed. I will go and find out, hon member.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Minister, during Covid-19 lockdown period whilst South Africans were confined to their homes and borders remains closed evidence emerged that illegal migrants were crossing our borders unabated to breach our state of disaster regulations and our immigration laws by simple cutting through our marshal embarrassment known as the border fence that was built by Minister de Lille and the Department of Public Works. Will this report emerging what additional measures, if any, did your department undertake to detect aquiline and report illegal migrants at our compromised borders? Please can you list your interventions and successes in this regard? I am asking this specifically hon Minister because you know that your department is losing the fight against illegal migration and hence you have seen the violence attacking and other protests we have seen in place.
Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I thought the initial question asked was about amount set aside for PPEs to fight the pandemic and whether there was any competitive beating with transparent etc. This question asked by the hon member about our
porous borders I regarded it as a total new question, Chairperson. I need to go and prepare thoroughly for it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. I reminded members about Rule 142 No 6, 142 No 6 explains exactly how ...
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: I am asking about lockdown and Covid-19 measures. Surely you should have put in place some additional measures when you realised the borders were compromised during this period when we were not allowed to travel.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Van Der Merwe, I didn’t ask for an explanation from you. You should have been asked to do that. But ...
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Sorry, Chairperson. Apologies.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. I think you have responded to and you can take the question further with the Minister. I think he won’t have a problem of responding to you. Maybe make it a written one but according to the Rule, Rule No 142 No 6 that is the response you got from the Minister.
Question 311:
THE MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, in answer to parts (a) and (b) of the question: The recently established Murder and Robbery Unit will respond to cases of murder and robbery in rural areas. The Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, the DPCI, will address serious firearm- and drug-related crimes. The Murder and Robbery Unit and the Stock Theft Unit will play a critical role with regard to the farm attacks and the theft of stock.
The mandate of the Murder and Robbery Unit is to respond to all identified serial murders; to murder and attempted murder committed against officials who are employed in the criminal justice system while in the execution of their duties, including the murder of SA Police Service members; to political murders and attempted murder; to the murder of elderly persons, as defined by the Older Persons Act, Act 13 of 2006; to attacks on farms and smallholdings; to payroll/pay polls robberies; to aggravated robberies at logistical warehouses; to mall shopping centre robberies; to aggravated robberies at filling stations; automated teller machine bombings ... robbery of firearms ... not investigated by the DPCI. Thank you very much, Chairperson. That’s my answer.
Mr A G WHITFIELD: Chair, from the Minister’s response it is now crystal clear that there is no specialised rural safety unit. The SAPS, however, in the past have said that there would be a focus on crimes which target the economy. During the previous quarter, agriculture outstripped other sectors in the economy in terms of growth. The agricultural sector is the backbone of our rural communities and our economy, and, given that the sector is responsible for almost 1 million jobs, it is quite obviously a key sector in our economy. Prioritising rural safety is therefore critical to protecting lives, livelihoods and the economy at large.
While we welcome the deployment of these broad-ranging specialised units, will the Minister now commit to prioritising farm attacks or classifying farm attacks as a national priority crime, and, if not, then what is the rationale behind the National Police Commissioner’s comments about rural safety units? Thank you.
THE MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I read the list that is prioritised by the formed and directed investigations by the DPCI and the Murder and Robbery and the Special Stock Units. As I read the list, one of the points is that they will be responsible and focus their investigations on attacks on farms and smallholdings. I don’t know what the interpretation of the member is on that, but
it’s a part of the priority, and that point is there and we are definitely looking at that point.
But, beyond that, there is a strategy. We are working with rural communities including farms. It was last year when this Minister, with the organised farming community, launched our approaches. We launched the support of the farm communities including farmers – supporting them with equipment, buying cars and all that. We launched it in Limpopo, and we are rolling out that launch with other places. So, we are satisfied that our working together is fine and will bear fruit. Thanks, Chair.
Mrs N R MASHABELA: Thank you very much, House Chair. Hon Minister, the country is ridden with crime all around. Townships are monuments to death as a result of criminal activity in this country. The police must be able to deal with crime in all its manifestations.
In light of this reality, why is the crime committed on farms receiving more attention than the murder of black people in townships every day. Is it perhaps possible that the prominence of this kind of crime in the media is as a result of the fact that most of these farmers are white and therefore deserve more rights
than blacks in the imagination of the media and right-wing political parties? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Mama Mashabela. Under this government, we shall forever look after the lives of the people of the Republic of South Africa. If there is media and those organisations find it proper to ... [Inaudible.] ... than others, is their business. For your information, as the SA Police Service, we make sure that when it comes to all people who are murdered – whether they be male or female, black or white – we put all our efforts into responding as we are working to protect all South Africans. We shall not be tempted to believe that one life is better than any other life in the Republic of South Africa. Thank you very much.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chair, in terms of pillar three of the rural strategy plan of the SA Police Service to improve policing infrastructure in rural and rural-urban police stations, the goal is to ensure that policing services and victim empowerment are available in these areas. This was part of the deliverable to investigate the revival of specialised rural units. Now, the deliverable is to appoint rural safety officers at urban and rural-urban police stations, and the target date is 31 August 2020. That is less than two weeks away.
My follow-up question to the hon Minister is: How far along is the process of appointing these rural safety officers at rural and urban-rural police stations to ensure that we have investigative and specialised rural units? Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. All those who ask a second supplementary question have only one minute, unlike the one who posed the question who gets two minutes. Be reminded, members.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the member is correct ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minster ... Hon Minister ... Hon Minister ...
The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... dealing with pillar three ... [Inaudible.] ... that as we all know ... [Inaudible.] ... and we could not have then followed all the programmes. Quite a few programmes changed, including this one. You would remember that we could not increase the training of the police. We lost members of the police; people were sick; and then the whole policy was converted and directed towards COVID-19. We are continuing with
the programme but it cannot be finalised by the end of the month because of the COVID-19 responses. Thanks.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mpanza, please check your gadget. It’s disturbing us. Mpumza ... oh sorry. Mpumza, please mute.
Ms T M JOEMAT-PETTERSSON: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, the national rural safety strategy is an excellent plan, but it needs to be implemented holistically. How will the Minister ensure that the strategy is not just focused on white farmers only but that farm workers in general and rural women in particular are also prioritised by the strategy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Chair. That point is similar to the other question that was asked. Our working on the farms includes the farm workers and the farmers themselves. By the way, we have to have better working relationships between the farm workers and the farm owners overall. Of late, we have had several reports that there are bad working relationships that sometimes end up in murder or the crime of grievous bodily harm, committed either by the farm workers or farmers against farm workers. So this will have to include there being much better working and mobilisation of social relationships in the farm
environment. Also, this cannot just be for ordinary farms, formal farms and most smallholdings. People that are working the rural land out there have to be included in the strategy to make sure that they are also safe. This is because we have picked up from crime statistics that there are more people who are murdered and robbed as there are those working the ordinary land outside the formal farm setup. Thanks.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Deputy Speaker
... Deputy Speaker ... Deputy Speaker ...
Question 268:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon
Deputy Speaker, the budget was not affected by the recent budget adjustments that replaced to corrections and rehabilitation, and provides us with the opportunity to implement personal corrections, development and wellbeing programmes in discharging our mandate. Our approach and method to rehabilitation and corrections is needs-based, informed and driven by corrections sentence plans designed to individual offending ... [Inaudible.]
...
The newly admitted offenders are subjected to individual needs- based assessment and profiling, for compiled a correctional
sentence planned through information obtained from offender, about the nature of the crimes committed, collaborated with the SA Police Service, SAPS, 62(4), completed by the detective who investigated the crime that provides the subscription of the crime and the method, weapons used, victims and others. This assessment provides the department with an opportunity to design individual and group rehabilitation programmes and corrections, that are taking to consideration gender-based violence related offences.
Specific legal categories of violent crime such as assault, murder and sexual offences, informs the design and methods of implementing these programmes. The same programmes also target the offending behaviour and the underlying factors that led to committing the offences, including gender-based offences, and those are, anger, substance abuse, anxiety, depression and so on. These programmes are based on the following areas of professional of specialisation: Social world rehabilitation programmes, spiritual care rehabilitation programmes and psychological rehabilitation programmes.
The content of these programmes for social work includes, anger management, sexual offender treatment, substance abuse, youth resilience enhancement, Sisonke family and marriage care and parenting skills. With regard to spiritual care, it offers various
moral regeneration programmes designed to correct the behaviour of
... [Inaudible.] ... and murderers, such as the peace education programme, ... [Inaudible.] ... steps, anger management, family firm foundation, individual pastoral interviews and counselling. These programmes equip the offenders with skills to interact with other people in peaceful and nonviolent manner.
The psychological services include the following, relapse prevention, mental health awareness campaigns, substance abuse, brain and addiction, support groups, self-harm behaviours, dialectical behavioural therapy, bonding behind bars, anger management, anxiety and depression, coping skills, trauma debriefing, social skills training, bullying, ... [Inaudible.] ... violence and aggressive behaviour, psycho education, suicide prevention and career counselling.
It is critical to know that factors that may lead to gender-based violence vary from individual to individual. However, when an offender participates in a psychological intervention, in-depth assessments and behavioural profiling, would have identified the best suited intervention ... [Inaudible.] ... given the reduced likelihood of recidivism. The above-mentioned psychological programmes by their nature, have a direct reciprocal relation and
impact on addressing gender-based violence to the offenders. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, I will be asking the follow-up question on behalf of hon Mente if you allow me.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, go ahead, hon member.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Okay, thank you. Minister, there’s a growing evidence that perpetrators of these violent crimes against women are repeat offenders. It is more serious with those who are abusive to their domestic partners. They do this all the time, and there are doubts if ever are being ready for rehabilitation. In cases where it has been established that people don’t get rehabilitated anymore, would you consider legislative amendments to increase the minimum sentence and refuse parole to such individuals?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon
Deputy Speaker. A growing number of offending behaviour has been shown that it is among those that have been in our facilities for a short period of time. It is this that has led us to reintroduce a programme to re-evaluate some of the rehabilitation programmes, but also to look at noncustodial sentencing for short-term
offenders, because that is where the highest number of recidivism is, and it is this phase that needs the attention of the entire legislative programme in terms of our penal system, from the date of sentencing to within our centres to look into that programme.
With regards to long-term sentences, I’ve already mentioned the programmes that have helped to reduce in terms of recidivism amongst those that have been sentenced for a long time. As we speak, hon Deputy Speaker, we are also in a programme that is looking in the entire parole system that is being reviewed, that will also be coupled with the Amendment or the Review of the Correctional Services Act. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. For the next supplementary question, please member, follow through. My guide here is a bit out of order. Just get me the next member to ask the next supplementary question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mofokeng will ask the next supplementary question, and I will ask the Table staff to send you a summarised document of members who are supposed to ask supplementary questions. They have just brought it now. ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, a summarised version.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): They have just brought it now. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, I will appreciate that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Please let them send it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mofokeng is the next speaker. Let me just give them to you so that, as they send it, then you continue with these ones. It is hon Mofokeng, she will be followed by hon Breytenbach, and followed by hon F J Mulder. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Thank you. Hon Mofokeng, please ask your follow-up question.
Ms J M MOFOKENG: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. As the Minister alluded, the department follows a needs-based approach to rehabilitation as per White Paper of Corrections. Need-based interventions, specifically target cause our factors with the
unique profile of the offender. The White Paper recommended that the department develop an individualised Correctional Sentence Plan, CSP, that will take the correctional section of the individual into account. Is this CSP documented in all correctional centres of the inmates? If so, is the CSP yielding the desired outcome? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon
Deputy Speaker. The Correctional Sentence Plan known as CSP is part of the assessment process as stipulated in the Offender Rehabilitation Pact Strategy, adopted by the department after the adoption of the White Paper on Corrections in 2005. The first few years after 2005 saw the development and piloting of the Correctional Sentence Plan and was phased in between 2005 and 2009, as the Correctional Services Act requires that the newly admitted offenders who are serving a sentence longer than 24 months to have a CSP.
Since 2012, rigorous training has been extended to custodial officials appointed as correctional assessment officials on an interim basis to implement the CSP. The CSP is developed within 21 days of incarceration, and it is implemented in all correctional centres. The CSP clearly recommends the type of interventions or rehabilitation programmes required based on the crime committed
and specific needs of the offender identified during assessment. To monitor the implementation, SCP is measured through an annual performance plan, in the cater of an offender serving a sentence of 24 months and above.
The Department of Correctional Services has managed to achieve 29,9% on these indicators. There are professionals that include social workers and psychologists to implement the CSP, and positive results have been achieved in this regard, as offenders parole replacement and releases, are based on the full implementation of the CSP. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, only around 5% of the budget of the total Department of Correctional Services has been spent on rehabilitation. This negative amount will have a negative impact on rehabilitation, and is compounded by the mental of the Department of Correctional Services that every official is a rehabilitation official. This is used to hide the fact that the number of properly qualified rehabilitation officials employed by the Department of Correctional Services are never going to the effectively implement the rehabilitation programmes. What are you, hon Minister, going to do to ensure that
... [Inaudible.] ... rehabilitation programme is made possible in this effect? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Deputy Speaker. As I have said before, we are looking at the programme, and assisting them whether they are responding to the programmes of rehabilitation that are aimed at offenders, and the outcome of that assessment will then be able to indicate to us whether we need to change the current structure or not in terms of what we are dealing with.
But as things stands, we are also filling the vacancies in that space in the rehabilitation programme corrections, that will enable us to deliver on the intended objective, including to maximally use the expertise and professionals that we have in the space. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. My follow-up question to the hon Minister is, should the Department of Justice and Correctional Services not, rather in addition to the existing programmes interact with the other relevant departments like the Department of Social Development and the Department of Basic Education for instance, to implement awareness and the educational programmes to prevent rape and murder of women, and thus reducing the need for rehabilitation and correction of such behaviours?
Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Deputy Speaker. The department is already interacting with the Departments of Social Development and Basic Education, hence, some of the programmes in our facilities are run by both departments of Social Development and for our school programme, the basic one, is run by the Department of Basic Education. From time to time, there is a linkage with regard to some of the offenders playing a role in communities and in some of the schools, to educate the kids who are in school, in terms of the dangers of committing crime.
Also, they are playing their role in terms of business related to gender-based violence, through a programme called under a tree, which also integrate offenders and members of community. So, it does play that kind of a role. Some of the engagements are also linked to the Department of Social Development, but we can also look further to expand the programme there, with resources permitting. So, it has a maximum impact, particularly in the schools in various countries that the offenders will play more role in that type of engagement. It has proven to be very impactful and it can be beneficial to the society. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon Chairperson, I
haven’t received the guide you suggested I will get, of a
summarised version of the names. The next question is Question No 60.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The next question is Question 301, asked by ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... asked by hon Nqola to the Minister of International Relations. Can I have a list of the people following 301?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The first ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister in the meantime.
Question 301:
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Deputy
Speaker and hon members, the reply to the question is that since the advent of the COVID-19 pandemic on the continent, President Ramaphosa and the government have played a very important role in providing leadership and support to the African continent.
Firstly, the President has been doing this not just as President of South Africa, but also in his capacity as Chairperson of the
Bureau of the Assembly of the African Union. He has led a number of proactive actions. Among them are the endorsement of the continental strategy to address the COVID-19 pandemic as it was found that we needed a coherent African response, supporting each other in responding to this disease and its impact.
Secondly, was the creation of the African Union COVID-19 Response Fund to allow countries that might not have the resource ability to immediately respond and have a fund that they could draw on in order to provide assistance for critical needs in response to the disease.
Thirdly, there is the appointment of special envoys to mobilise rapid and concrete commitments from the countries of the G20, the European Union, multilateral finance institutions, the G7 and other partners; and consultations with chairs of the regional economic communities of Africa in order to ensure that that co- ordination is strengthened and exists in reality.
Then, the most important, I believe, was the creation of the African Medical Supplies Platform as an African owned and innovative way of pooling medical supplies and other related material and making them available through this web-based platform in order for countries to be able to order, at a very reasonable
cost, the resources and equipment that they need to combat the pandemic.
We’ve also had engagements, led by the Chair of the AU, with the Business Leaders Forum to solicit funding to enhance the African COVID-19 Response Fund. Finally, South Africa has led in ongoing consultations with the international community, including the multilateral organisations I’ve referred to, and the UN, the World Health Organisation and, of course, African Pacific and Caribbean countries. So we have had a range of responses led by South Africa, all intended our continent’s ability to respond to the pandemic. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Mr X NQOLA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Let me equally welcome the comprehensive report from the Minister. Hon Minister, it is common cause that the devastating social, political and economic impact of COVID-19 is still going to live persistently among the African people for quite some time. Therefore, how is the African Union planning to co-ordinate and foster co-operation for Africa’s economic growth to mitigate against poverty and unemployment especially worsened by the COVID-19 conditions on our continent? Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Thank
you very much again, Deputy Speaker. Thank you, hon Nqola, for the follow-up question. What we are doing is to ensure that the special envoys appointed by President Ramaphosa engage with the international finance institutions in order to secure funding for African countries for our post COVID-19 economic recovery strategies.
We’ve also been able, through the special envoys and the leadership of President Ramaphosa, to secure relief in terms of debt deferral for countries to ensure that they can utilise funds, that would normally go towards debt payment, towards investing in their economic recovery and also in their health systems so that better services are provided to those who are impacted by the pandemic.
Finally, the establishment and opening of the Office of the Secretary-General of the African Continental Free Trade Area agreement, which occurred on 18 August, is an important step forward in providing a capacity that will allow Africa to respond and act on some of the inadequacies that emerged in the context of the pandemic. For example, localisation is a very important part of what must be done with respect to the production of health care and other equipment. It will be the Free Trade Area Office that
will play a role in ensuring African responsiveness to the production of its own quality goods that will be available to the wider African market.
The final point must be that what Africa has done is to strengthen the African Centres for Disease Control and Prevention in order to ensure that we have extra support through health research and innovation, and it is African resources that have gone towards building that capacity. So, I believe, with the steps that have been put in place, we have built a basis for a stronger future foundation for the African continent. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and thank you, hon Minister, for your reply. In Sub-Saharan Africa, over 70% of workers are self-employed and the majority of them operate in the informal sector. With regard to the lockdowns that have been imposed to mitigate the spread COVID-19, what strategies has the Chair of the African Union developed to ensure that the economies of these countries, whose incomes depend on the 70% of informal workers or workers in the informal sector, do not collapse?
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Thank
you very much again, Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the hon
Meshoe. Hon Meshoe, one of the things that has become very evident in the course of this pandemic and as facet of the steps that governments had to take, is that it is very clear that we can no longer refer to self-employment and micro and small industries as informal sectors. They are too important for the survival of African economies. Thus, what we need to do is develop mechanisms that will provide resources to this sector and ensure that, increasingly, we recognise these self-employed individuals as part of our economies. This has been a very, very evident part of the discussions that we are having about the post recovery phase.
What we have all agreed to is that we need to develop, especially, financing mechanisms that would allow these businesses to move from the margins towards the centre of African economies through appropriate infrastructure, appropriate financing institutions and robust and consistent support which does recognise the role they play in African economies.
So, in devising measures of support, most African countries have, indeed, given attention to this particular sector of the economic activity of their countries. It has been recognised that, in fact, we have been marginalising this sector and need to do much more about acknowledging its importance to millions of Africans on the continent. So, I believe, there is going to be far more robust
attention paid to this category of business in Africa. Thank you again, Deputy Speaker.
Mrs T P MSANE: Deputy Speaker, the biggest highlights that stands out are the increase in debt and the halt in the implementation of the African Continental Free Trade Area agreement. The African Union has received loans worth billions of US dollars from the IMF and the World Bank for COVID-19. The halt of the African Continental Free Trade Area agreement has stopped an estimated 1% increase in global trade in Africa, which could have generated US$70 billion as additional income for the continent for the year. What steps is the African Union going to take to make sure that these loans do not put the sovereignty of African countries at risk, which will impact the goal of a united Africa post COVID-19? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Thank
you very much, Deputy Speaker, and, I thank the hon Msane. I think she has asked a very important question. One of the interventions that President Ramaphosa has led is the argument to several of the lenders that what should be done is not debt deferral – so, payment deferral – but rather debt relief and debt forgiveness.
Several countries, including China, have agreed to this
particularly for the poorest of African nations. We have already made some progress there.
What we are now looking at is what form of benefit we could draw on from countries that have announced fairly significant recovery packages and which may very well do this out of a trade-export relationship with the African continent. Discussions are under way to really look at what advantage might accrue to the African continent as countries make recovering resources available to reopen their economies and to strengthen trade relations between countries. Certainly, there has been an impact in terms of the programme that we had agreed to with respect to the Free Trade Area agreement. But work has gone on. The Secretary-General Mr Mene has been extremely busy, and we continue to look to opportunities for Africa and to draw on those for countries on our continent to ensure that we are not left far behind.
We are also working with continental and regional bodies, such as the European Union, to look at new ground support for countries on the African continent, and the discussions are at a very positive level that we hope will be concluded before the end of this year. So, we do recognise the danger, but it has been agreed that all countries will need an opportunity where they invest in their local economy and local development in order to allow them to get
back to a pace at which they can begin repaying the outstanding loans.
This is why, for example, we have said to the special envoys that the agreement of a six-month debt deferral period is far too short. We want at least two years, and we continue to engage other countries on this matter. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please switch off your music. We would like to listen to jazz too but not now. Just switch it off whoever it is.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, and greetings to the hon Minister. Hon Deputy Speaker, we need more projects to support the orders of the founding fathers of Africa. African countries working together rather than on their own will make all those living in Africa strong and address challenges.
The African procurement portal to win the war against the COVID-19 pandemic, launched by President Ramaphosa, must be supported to show that a united states of Africa is not a pipe dream. Are there any more projects in the pipeline? How can we in South Africa access the Africa Medical Supplies Platform, and shouldn’t we buy PPE from this platform directly instead of giving it out to tender?
Al Jama-ah welcomes the marketing campaign: Made in Africa. What is the Minister’s department doing to promote this to show support for President Ramaphosa and the Bureau of the Assembly of the African Union? Also, Minister, will funding help reduce the prices of PPE and the vaccines which we will need, making their pricing more competitive? Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Thank
very much, Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the hon Hendricks for the questions. I think one of the things I should have begun with was to thank all those countries that have provided support and donations to South Africa and to the African continent broadly in response to this COVID-19 emergency.
The African COVID-19 health supplies portal has been a very important African development. The design of the portal is African-led and the securing of the goods – the equipment and all the necessities to combat the disease – have been an African-led process, led by the envoy appointed by President Ramaphosa. All African countries have been encouraged both by the AU Chairperson, which is me, and by the heads of state within the bureau, as well as by the leaders of the regional economic communities that this is a portal all of us should use. In a sense, this is almost like a cloud supply provision to the portal. The price levels are
extremely reasonable and the quantities that have been provided are of a nature that supplies all the needs that our countries might have to respond to this pandemic.
So it is a very, very important initiative and it just suggests how we should develop a future common African market. It is a model for the future and it is something that we believe will certainly be of great assistance. Certainly, the funding that is to be received by Africa – and is being received – is assisting with economic recovery, but, most important and critical, is, of course, the health response.
So, in our engagements on the continent we have consistently stated that the focus must be on the African human being to ensure that we save our people, we reduce the impact of this pandemic and we strengthen the public health systems in order to support governments to respond. So, while looking to all aspects of manufacturing, industrialisation and other economic sectors, we keenly look to the health response as being the most critical.
That has been our focus for the moment. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Question 303:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker,
I was just struggling to ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... to reconnect. It’s okay.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The list
supplied by the Department of Correctional Services, DCS contains the names of 23 persons although the number of cases in which they are involved amount to 14, as some of the accused appear in some of the same cases. However, there are no remand detainees who have been incarcerated for up to seven years without trial. Apart from two cases relating to fraud, the other cases all contain serious charges of murder, rape, robbery with aggravating circumstances, and attempted murder.
All the cases are partly heard for the past number of years with delays caused mostly by either the remand detainees or co-accused. A number of the cases are postponed for argument, judgment or sentence. It is noteworthy to see that in most instances of the cases of several accused, some of the accused elected, at some stage during the trial, to obtain new legal representatives where the trial records had to be transcribed resulting in several postponements as new representative requires time for preparations.
Once a trial has started, the decisions to grant or allow postponements are the prerogative of the presiding officer and the prosecution is merely one of the parties to the proceedings; and it cannot regulate or control the proceedings. This is the responsibility also of the presiding officer. So, these are the challenges that have been encountered by them in terms of the list that we have in relation to awaiting trial detainees. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Ms M G BOROTO: Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, there will be an interpreter, Mme.
Ms M G BOROTO: Okay. But she is continuing.
AN HON MEMBER: The interpreter was not connected.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: But you ...
AN HON MEMBER: The interpreter is now connected. May hon Wilna start again?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, okay. I thought she was connected.
Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Hon Minister, thank you for your response. How can systems within the entire justice value chain be strengthened and modernised so as to function in a coherent manner in order to ensure that the remand detainees are not denied justice by unnecessary delays? Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Speaker, the Department of Justice and Correctional Services’ perspective of an effective and integrated justice system is underway to address the South African approach to modernisation of the entire justice value chain system. This will assist in reducing data capturing and will improve the quality of information shared within the entire criminal justice system value chain.
For such a system to function optimally, the whole architecture should be improved including servers, bandwidth, fibre and all that, to ensure that the ICT systems are not slow in their functioning due to outdated platforms. This will assist in addressing matters regarding remand detainees incarcerated with an option of bail for longer than a week and those with bail less than R1 100; and remand detainees for longer than two years.
In developing the integrated justice system, departments are responsible for ensuring that their core business system or other support needs systems are developed in such a way that they can use the platform developed by integrated justice system, IJS to allow for sharing of information. Currently, the implementation of the audio-visual remand at the correctional facilities is implemented as part of the improvement on the delays. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr W HORN: Deputy Speaker, the problem of remand detainees being incarcerated for long periods without their trials concluding is going to become exponentially bigger due to the debilitating effects of Covid-19 on the functionality of specifically our criminal courts. We have been assured that the Minister and the department have a plan to effectively deal with the ever-growing criminal case backlogs in order to, amongst other things, address the plight of remand detainees who are incarcerated for long periods at a huge cost to the taxpayer without their cases being concluded. Would the Minister care to take this House and the country into his confidence and share the details of his backlog turnaround plan in respect of case backlogs? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker,
indeed there is an ongoing engagement between all the relevant stakeholders with regard to the court backlog and the roll. The stakeholders include the NPA, the judiciary, the Department of Justice and Correctional Services, and the SA Police Service to ensure they look into the court roll in terms of the backlog, but also to ensure that the courts continue to function under these current circumstances and conditions. We have, through the directives, ensured that at the minimum level the courts are able to function during that period of disaster up to now.
We will review the current directives which will give more flexibility and optimal functioning of the courts and opening up all, and also address the issue that relates to the backlog which is currently in the system. At the core of that will be the integration of the use of technology to enable some of the courts to function optimally - as I have stated - with regard to bandwidth and connectivity in relation to the various parts of our courts across the country. But also, where there may be a necessity to review the Criminal Procedure Act to enable some of the trials to be done on those kinds of platforms where there could be hiccups. So, there are indeed engagements and the strategy that is being consulted upon with the relevant
stakeholders, and will soon be announced to the public upon conclusion of the discussions. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, it will be taken by the hon Ntlangwini. Minister, most of those incarcerated and awaiting trial for long period of time are black people with no access to legal representation, and have faced different magistrates who have no qualms postponing the matters indefinitely while they remain in jail. The quality of our legal aid provided by the state have been below par for a very long time, leading to great injustice to many remand detainees. What are you doing to improve the quality of legal representation provided by the Legal Aid SA and are you planning to sanction magistrates who keep matters on the roll for more than two years while those charged are remanded in custody? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Speaker, I can state here with confidence that the services provided by the Legal Aid SA is not below par. The Legal Aid SA is the biggest law firm in the country. It has been verified by independent research survey that it is the preferred law firm of choice by the accused in our various courts across the country because of the quality of service that they provide and the Batho Pele Principles that they adhere to. It has also been one of the
most transformed in terms of technology where the accused can be able to access the legal representatives through various online platforms like WhatsApp and various innovative ways of communication with the legal aid platform. This has proven over decades to be very effective for the people of this country and society as a whole.
So, there is no reason whatsoever for any accused not to have legal representation particularly if they qualify and they can be able to meet the means test. The Legal Aid legal representatives are at the service of the people of this country. With regard to the issues that may end up going beyond two years - as I have stated - there are various variables and reasons that lead to cases staying for more than two years on the roll. Most of them - as I have stated - are caused by the accused themselves not being available, sick leave, and the changing of legal representatives, but also by the co-accused in some of the cases where not only one accused is involved. Those also cause the delays in some of the matters. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr W M THRING: Minister, it has been estimated that up to one third of the country’s total prison population is made up of remand detainees - people who have been arrested, refused or cannot afford bail with some spending years waiting for the start
or completion of their trial. Like our African Christian brothers and sisters murdered by Islamic militants, Boko Haram in Nigeria and by Isis in Mozambique, remand detainees appear to be a forgotten group. Section 49 (g) of the Correctional Services Act was an attempt to reduce the number of people spending excessive periods of time in remand detention but this has not sufficiently happened. Why have the constitutional rights of remand detainees been denied? And Minister, what is being done to remedy this? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy
Speaker, various programmes have been put in place to respond to the challenges of remand detainees and such programmes include, during this period of lockdown where partly, matters were put in terms of the directives. Some of the matters that could be finalised. Such matters also include the issue of remand detainees who have bails of less than R5 000. The heads of centres have been applying to our various courts to allow them to be released on bail where the interest of justice do permit. There have also been processes with regard to the audio-visual link, which I spoke earlier about, where it could be used for bail and also maybe for plea that was enabling to conclude or to allow them to be released if the interest of justice do allow, or for them to conclude some of the matters.
So, there are various programmes, hon Deputy Speaker, aimed at addressing the issue of remand detainees and I think, in future, as society, we also need to engage on this issue so that we may have to conclude or come to a situation where there should be at least arrests upon conclusion of investigations. But the pressure that sometimes comes with communities and with the interest of justice, sometimes dictate that before the conclusion of investigations an accused end up in our facilities and it also prolongs the processes. But, as I said earlier, the integration of the whole system from the SAPS, the prosecutors and the judiciary will enable us to address this challenge of remand detention for us not to have a huge number that ends up being in our facilities. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Question 309:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker. Yes, domestic violence registers are in use at all the police stations. Quarterly reports in respect of the domestic violence registers are submitted to the SA Police Service head office by the provincial commissioners for analysis, monitoring and evaluation.
Benefits resulting from the monitoring of the domestic violence registers are as follows:
The number of incidents of cases reported per month gives an indication of equivalence of the domestic violence within a police station precinct. The domestic violence register also provides insights into the nature of the assistance provided. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Cele.
IsiZulu:
Awukwazi ukukhala uthi siyakufukuzisa. Uvumile ukuthi uzophendula. Azicele umhonishwa u-Peacock.
Ms N P PEACOCK: Thank you Deputy Speaker. My follow-up question to the Minister will be, what is the role of the civilian secretariat for police in monitoring the compliance to DBA register. The second question will be, there are notoriously lack of compliance on completing the registers. Has the Minister investigated the route cause for this and does it really comply?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: On the first one, the job of the secretariat is to assist the Minister of Police to run the policing a proper way especially when it comes to the policing matters at police stations. For instance, either they are sent there or voluntarily go there if they get that there is an issue
to go and examine and give a report to the Minister of Police and the same report will be given to the police management so that the police management can deal with those matters raised by the secretariat.
Yes, we do meet now and again with the secretariat to look into matters and not only the registered at the station but the complaints themselves including the compliance the member has spoken about.
When it comes to this register, I fully agree with the member that not all police stations where you find that the compliance is to be maximum. It is on the scope that the head of the detective services is trying to put special people specifically dealing with these matters of accepting and receiving the complains of the gender based violence as a station so that people get trained, they can understand the matter and keep the records at the compliance it’s supposed to be. Thank you very much.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, the oversight visits to police stations as well as complaints by complainants reveal that the dataset are often not properly kept but you already have sort of agreed to that. Now, Minister, this failure then obviously causes a [Inaudible.] on cluster provincial
and national level. Incorrect information inevitably leads to wrong management responses. How do you intend to ensure that the correct information is recorded in future and what are you going to do to rectify the police’s misguided to responses to date?
Thank you Deputy Speaker.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Indeed, hon Deputy Speaker. The hon member would be correct that at some of our police stations we’ve got 1153 police station in the Republic of South Africa and most police stations do their work very well and diligently. However, there would be few of them that are not doing the work properly.
Indeed, if that register is not done properly, the issue will be that the information will be incorrect which might give them the incorrect response to the matters. Which is on the scope that I have say as that the head of the detective, we are working hard to say that people working on these matters must be dedicated, be trained and be found all the time so that the information is correct and that will lead to a proper response. Thank you Chair.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you very much Chair. Minister, there are many cases of repeated domestic violence perpetrators in society who find their way back to society soon after cases have been laid against them. Most of these people are granted police bail and are
released before they can even appear in court. What are you doing as a Minister, as an active Minister to ensure that police are better equipped to deal with gender based violence and put an end to the increase of the number of people granted police bail before they even appear before court? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I would really love to get the list of those people that are granted bail from the police which is supposed to be jailed [Inaudible.] if I’m not mistaken.
Those bailed by the police must be on a 30 kind of crime. Definitely, ... [Inaudible.] ... it’s a very serious crime, it’s tropical crime in South Africa. So, if there is such, a police cannot be allowed to do that. That case must be investigated and must go to court and it should be the prosecution and the magistrate that grant bail.
I would request the hon member that it be through her to get me the list of those. I really want to follow up on that because it cannot be that such offences can be taken light as this. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you Deputy Speaker. Minister, as you are aware that the large percentage of the domestic violence matters
brought forward are committed by intimate partners or victims known to the perpetrators.
Now, in terms of the registers that you have at these stations, could you tell us what percentage of these cases are withdrawn by the victims themselves or withdrawn by the courts as a result of a lack of operation by the victim themselves? And very importantly Minister as you have agreed that a great percentage of police stations are producing satisfactory results but there are those that are not, particularly the gender based violence matters in the Western Cape, there appears to be a lack of commitment that there many cases of people complaining about the response from the unit ...[Inaudible.] ...dealing with these matter particularly in the Western Cape.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much hon deputy Speaker. The Western Cape matter has been raised and has been discussed with the commissioner there. We have a Commissioner, General Matakata who is looking into the matter. We believe that we will really improve on the Western Cape complaints. There are others but Western Cape for some reason is really serious.
The percentage per say Deputy Speaker, I wouldn’t work out how
many cases that are withdrawn by the victims themselves, not just
them. It’s quite a sizable number hon Deputy Speaker. It’s quite a sizable number that victims themselves withdraw but they are also forced by their families to withdraw and if not, their families disown the victims and support perpetrators because it’s a family issue. You’re bringing embarrassment to the family… we’ll be embarrassed if you lay charges against the uncle, the brother and all that.
Maybe one will have to work on those figures but it’s quite a sizable number of those cases that are withdrawn by victims pressured by friends and families.
Question 313:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, hon
Chairperson and hon members. Thank you for the question. The matter relates to an incident which occurred in Alexandra. On
21 May 2020, following the ruling of the North Gauteng High Court, the Chief of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, Gen Shoke, put four members on leave on full pay, of course on instruction from the court, pending the finalisation of the SAPS’ investigation into the incident that led to the death of Mr Khosa.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Minister, the 40-year-old Collins Khosa died after he was allegedly assaulted by soldiers. This was obviously a
low point in the history of the Defence Force that must defend and protect our citizens. The Commander-in-Chief, the President, stated in April that he would leave no stone unturned to ensure that justice is served. Needless to say, the Khosa family is still waiting for this.
Can the Minister clarify the conflicting messages by her to the portfolio committee, thereafter to the media, of the Defence Force’s leadership and her subsequent retraction of her message? This, Minister, while you have filed a signed affidavit in support of the final report to the specific court.
Minister, were you misled, misinformed or maybe undermined by the Defence Force’s leadership, because inadvertently, at the time you conveyed an incorrect and confusing message to Parliament? If so, were any of them held accountable? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very
much, hon Marais. As I was responding to the question, if anything, one of the issues I clarified was that in fact we had three investigations which were running parallel. One of those ... the investigation which you initiated, in a matter which you sent via SMS to ... on WhatsApp ... to the office of the military ombud, and having done that, I subsequently confirmed in writing
and gave the military ombud the instruction to conduct an investigation.
Now, I am on record, in various forums, as having condemned the incident on 10 April that led to tata Khosa ... Of course, during the enforcement of the lockdown, there was never an instruction
... that there should be an abuse of South African citizens and I made the point that, of course, once the report comes out we will make a statement and there will be consequences.
Now, you will be happy to hear that on the 5th of August, I received the report which contains details of the investigation, the findings and recommendations from the military ombud. Now, I have stated unequivocally that once the ongoing investigations have been finalised, there will be, as I’ve said, consequences. One such investigation, which is this one of the military ombud, has now come out. Remember, the investigation by the military ombud does not deal with the criminal investigation. The criminal investigation is dealt with by law enforcement agencies but the military ombud has a responsibility to investigate the behaviour of members of the SA National Defence Force at a particular time, whether the code of conduct was observed, whether the rules of the game were conferred.
Now, the unfortunate thing, and I do want to say unfortunate, but those who are legal ... will say that there is nothing unfortunate about it ... the military ombud, in conducting the investigation, conducted interviews with several witnesses, including the partner of tata Khosa. He also interviewed people who occupy ... [Inaudible.] ... tenants at the house. ... also interviewed neighbours. Unfortunately, the former members of the SA National Defence Force who have these allegations hanging over them, reserved their right to remain silent, having been advised by a lawyer who was representing them. Now, people will say it is understandable that they would do that because there is a criminal investigation which is currently ongoing. So, maybe due to the fear of incriminating themselves, perhaps it was correct not to provide answers to the military ombud.
That still did not leave, sort of ... did not mean that the ombud could not make a finding in this case. He has made a finding. In the light of evidence which was obtained from those who agreed to co-operate with the ombud, the soldiers, on entering the Khosa residence for the search and seizure of liquor, did it in the absence of the Johannesburg Metropolitan Police Department, JMPD, and the SA Police Service, whom we support all the way. Therefore, that was outside the scope of the SA National Defence Force and, of course, from the evidence it is concluded that in the process
of conducting the search for alcohol, various acts of misconduct were unfortunately committed by the soldiers. The ombud concluded that the official conduct of these members was improper, irregular and in contravention of the code of conduct, operational order and rules of engagement.
The ombud therefore recommends that appropriate disciplinary measures should be taken against the commander of the platoon that was on the ground but also against those who were with the commander. So, that is where we are. I have since written a letter to the Chief of the SA National Defence Force to give an instruction that he should comply with the recommendations of the military ombud. I have also written a letter to the office of the military ombud to express a word of appreciation and to commit that we will indeed comply with the recommendations contained in the report. That is where we are for now, and as you would know hon member, there is still a criminal investigation being conducted. This was purely investigating the administrative processes and whether in fact the soldiers conducted themselves properly when they entered the premises of the Khosa family. I thank you.
Ms M MODISE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, will the Defence Force consider engaging in a programme to build co-operation with
society to create positive relations between the Defence Force and society?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I’m so sorry,
Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You couldn’t hear that, I’m sorry. Can she go back to the podium? Hon Modise, please wait a little so that the microphone is appropriately in front of you, so that we can hear. There is also an echo. I don’t know where it’s coming from. If someone can please deal with the microphone. It might be open.
Please close it. Go ahead. Switch the microphone on and speak, hon Modise.
Ms M MODISE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, but there is nothing wrong with the microphone here in the House. Dear Minister, will the Defence Force consider engaging in a programme to build co- operation with society to create positive relations between the Defence Force and society?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very
much, hon member. You know, we always talk about civil military relations. One of the reasons why, when the Defence Act was drafted, a decision was taken to have, in the first instance, a
civilian component ... which we worked together with uniformed police, which is led by the Secretary of Defence. It is because we came from a history where there was no civilian control of the military. The military could do as it pleased. There was no relationship between the Defence Force of the time, together with ordinary citizens and communities.
So, as South Africa ... as this government, we are very committed to strengthening civil military relations. We are very committed to engaging with our people. That is why, hon Modise, you see that there are programmes which we have that takes us to communities to people where they live, particularly in the rural areas. And I must say, I am not saying it is adequate. I believe that the lessons learnt from the COVID-19 pandemic ... the campaign against this pandemic, is that we need to heighten our engagement with communities. We need to heighten our political education of our people to get ... also with the soldiers ... just for people to understand that the responsibility of soldiers is that of defending the Republic, the sovereignty of the Republic of South Africa and therefore the people of South Africa ... that when our people see a soldier they should see one of their own ... somebody they can run to for help, and not to actually run away from a soldier due to ... fear that they may be victimised by the
soldiers. Soldiers should not be seen as perpetrators of crime but rather as protectors of vulnerable people in our country.
So, I do agree, hon members, that the lessons learnt here during this period of COVID talk to us ... that we need to do more work by way of having soldiers engaging with communities, not only ... and by building bridges, etc. We need outreach programmes which explain what the role of members of the SA National Defence Force is. Thank you very much for the question, hon member.
Ms R N KOMANE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Minister, members of the SANDF, with your encouragement, are increasingly and with impunity abusing the rights of citizens. Today, you and your department are facing a claim of about R120 million from civilian families ousted from the Marievale Military Base near Nigel, at the SANDF. The case of the murder of Collins Khosa is therefore one of many cases of human rights abuses by the SANDF.
What actions are you taking to ensure that the SANDF is bound by the laws that bind everyone, and respects the rights of citizens? More specifically, when will you stop harassing the people of Marievale near Nigel?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we will deal with your remarks afterwards but hon Minister, please answer.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very
much, hon member. I can assure you that unfortunately the developments around Marievale have nothing to do with the question at hand. However, I will seek to answer that. The developments around Marievale have nothing to do with the harassment of people. The developments around Marievale have everything to do with people who have occupied land ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mpumlwana ...
IsiZulu:
... ukhulumelani uNgqongqoshe esaphendula?
English:
Go ahead, Minister.
English:
Go ahead, Minister.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: It has everything
to do with a very bad culture which we have unfortunately
developed and which unfortunately some of us are encouraging ... of occupying land which does not belong to you. It is incorrect. It is wrong to occupy land which has not been given to you, and I am not in any way suggesting that in the course of removing people from Marievale, no transgressions were committed by the soldiers.
However, the point is that the land does not belong to the people who are currently in Marievale. I know that this matter is in court. They are represented by the Lawyers for Human Rights and I have engaged Lawyers for Human Rights when it has been necessary for me to do so, when the matter was brought to my attention. I’ve had physical contact with them to explain the position of the SA National Defence Force.
However, there is this determination to continue to occupy land. If you remove people today, people go back to that land even when we have offered alternative shelter as had been directed by the courts. People still wanted to go back to an area which was not allocated to them. It is not as though we did not provide alternative accommodation when we were directed to do so by the courts. We did. However, people are so determined and committed to continue with the agenda of moving into areas which do not belong to them. This is land that belongs to the SA National Defence Force.
If there are negotiations, that maybe it’s time to give the land over, you know, for it to be expropriated ... that’s a different matter. But to just move into an area ... and I know, by the way, that the people have been on this land for a long, long time ... for years actually. However, it does not mean that at this point the SA National Defence Force does not have the right to say we need this land for exercises. We need this land for many other things.
In fact, we have since discovered that one of the reasons why people are refusing to leave that area is because somebody told them that there may be minerals on that land. We are still going to be approaching the Department of Mineral Resources so that they can go and conduct an investigation ... a study, just to check whether ... send their geologists just to check if in fact there are minerals.
People want a situation where they will remain in the area so that tomorrow, if indeed there are minerals in the area ... some natural resources, they will then be part of the people who will benefit from that. Thank you, Chair.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, in many budget debates we agreed between us that one of the critical
problems of the SANDF is discipline, and you agreed with me. If we look at this incident involving Collins Khosa, before that the Chief of the SANDF appeared on national television, and he said that when the SANDF moves in, it is skop en klap. [kick and slap.] He used a stronger word. Now, he set the example and that is exactly what these soldiers did. They skopped en klapped [kicked and slapped] Collins Khosa.
My follow up question is the following. Were there any steps taken against the Chief of the SANDF? If so, what steps? If not, why not? As far as I am concerned, he is complicit in the actions of these soldiers.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very
much, hon Chair and thank you, hon member Groenewald for the question. Firstly, let me just set the record straight. The clip which has been played over and over again, where the Chief of the SA National Defence Force made this kind of statement, is an old clip. After the President, the Commander-in-Chief of the Republic of South Africa, commanded his forces to move into our communities to protect our people against the pandemic COVID-19, my understanding, at least from where I am sitting ... I do not recall that the Chief of the SA National Defence Force repeated that kind of statement. I know for sure that that statement was
made some years ago and I know that the President, when he addressed the soldiers, and commanded and ordered them to go out and defend South Africans against the pandemic, I know that the President actually made reference to that statement ... that there shall be no skop en donder. [kicking and beating.] I am instructing you to go out and protect South African citizens against an invisible enemy called COVID-19.
Now, after that statement by the President, I certainly do not recall the Chief of the SA National Defence Force going out publicly and contradicting the Commander-in-Chief. If he has done that, I would imagine that it will be the responsibility of the Commander-in-Chief to engage with the Chief of the SA National Defence Force. But I know that the statement was made long before the statement by the Commander-in-Chief, which in a sense rebuked us for having made that kind of statement.
Question 269:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: On Deputy
Speaker, in October 2019, His Excellency President Cyril Ramaphosa announced R1,6 billion that government had reprioritised from the existing budget allocations to implement the Gender-based Violence, and Femicide Emergency Responsive Plan, GBVFERP, from 1 November 2019 to 31 March 2020.
However, our Chapter 9 institutions, that is the Public Protector, the SA Human Rights Commission, and the entities, the Special Investigation Unit, and the Legal Aid SA, were not among the lead stakeholders tasked for the implementation of the GBVFERP, henceforth no budget reprioritisation was done by them. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, while you are on the phone, can I go on? Chair Boroto.
The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You can go on, hon Mkhalipi.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you T G, Minister, thanks for the reply and for confirming the role of Chapter 9 institutions.
In your experience as a Minister thus far, please confirm that are you of the view that government departments give Chapter 9 institutions the respect they deserve. If so and as you have already said so, why do you think that the report of an institution such as the Commission on Gender Equality are basically ignored?
I am talking about the report for the Commission on Gender Equality released on forced sterilisation on women who were HIV positive in February 2020. So would you in your capacity as a Minister ensure at least that there is justice done for the trauma that these women went through when the Department of Health forced them to do the sterilisation. I am talking about the case that is dated back to 2015. me of those women are still suffering from the effect of being coerced, insulted, strip of dignity by the Department of Health.
Since there is this report in Parliament now, so are you going to help these women to get justice that they deserve? Some of them they do not even sleep at night. They are traumatised because of what was done on them by the Health Department.
As the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, can these women account and can they get justice from you? Thank you, hon House Chairperson, Ntombela.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chairperson, can I go ahead?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright, eh!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: They have already muted me! However, go ahead and hon Ntombela will take over.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Alright. Thank
you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I think the follow-up question is not really directly related to the main question. However, it relates to what is the work of the Chapter 9 institutions and whether is
government responding to or ignoring taking into consideration the recommendations of the various Chapter 9 institutions. And I am asked from my experience.
Up to now I have observed that many government departments do respond to the Chapter 9 institutions. I have been asked in several occasions and in certain instances to come in if it is possible and when legislations do permit for them to access information. However, the specific question which is asked that the Department of Health has better knowledge and understanding of specific issues of what the hon Mkhalipi is raising. I think It would be better and they are in a better position to respond to this question. I also think that as she has said, the matter is
before Parliament which I believe would be properly considered and be taken forward. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhalipi.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Hon House Chairperson, is the Minister failing to address my question as the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services? For we are looking for justice for these women. So, the question is straight forward.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Hon House Chair, I want to understand that there are rules. When a follow-up question is made does a rule allow to make a second follow-up question after a response?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I do not think so, hon member.
Can I respond to hon Mkhalipi?
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Exactly. Why is this guy always so forward?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can I respond to hon Mkhalipi?
Hon Mkhalipi, I think the Minister is better placed to respond to the question that has been put forward and he has responded accordingly. If the hon Mkhalipi is unhappy with the answer, there are appropriate measures that the hon member should follow so that the question is answered. However, for now I will accept what the Minister has said.
Can we therefore go to the second supplementary question which will be asked by the hon Q R Dyantyi? The hon Dyantyi.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu Q R DYANTYI: Enkosi Sihlalo weNdlu. Mphathiswa, UOzzi Lamola ndiyavumelana nawe xa usithi lo mbuzo awuyanga kule ndawo ubufanele ukuya kuyo.
English:
I would like you to take this opportunity ...
Ms H O MKHALIPI: On a point of order.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: ... because the issue of you gender-based violence is a very critical issue in the country. Would you like to say a few words and comment on that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhalipi and hon Dyantyi.
Alright, let us hear what the hon Mkhalipi is raising?
Mr Q R DYANTYI: I am on the platform.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhalipi.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Hon House Chairperson, why is the member on the platform addressing my question, because he is supposed to ask the hon Minister his question and not reiterate on my question and on behalf of the EFF?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Alright, hon Mkhalipi, I will take care of that.
Can we allow the hon Dyantyi to go ahead please?
The Hon Dyantyi!
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Yes, House Chairperson. I am making the follow-up on the question and therefore I would like to ask if the Minister can just say a few words on the importance of gender-based violence?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chairperson, indeed gender-based violence is a serious concern to the South African society and the globe as a whole. Hence the President has directed us to work with the civil society and everyone within the South African society to help resolve this.
To this extend we have resolved that in the financial year 2020- 21, the department will introduce a special monitoring system to highlight and track violent crimes committed against women doing this in line with the femicide watch and the data base of all famicide crimes in the country in fulfilling the work of capturing and tracking down of every femicide case, carefully analyse data
to determine trends and profile of offenders and victims, developing responses and impact policies, laws, programmes and initiatives. Channelling resources for interventions to areas of need. Periodically publishing the femicide watch to raise awareness on femicide and keep the country and its memory alive the realities and the tragedies as a prevention measure.
House Chairperson, in addition, on legislation, Cabinet approved the introduction into Parliament following Gender-based Violence and Femicide Bills, the Domestic Violence Amendment Bill, the Criminal and Related Matters Bill, the Criminal Law Sexual Offences and Related Matters Amendment Bill.
These Bills respond to a number of issues raised during the Presidential Summit Against Gender-based Violence and Femicide. These include providing a victim-centric response in the criminal justice system and respect of sexual offences and tightening of bail conditions of perpetrators of sexual offences.
The Criminal Law Amendment Bill also amends the National Register for Sexual Offenders by broadening its scope. This House will grabble with these Bills soon and debate and take them forward.
This is a sign that the South African government take this issue very serious and hopefully it will debate society. [Time expired.]
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Mr Minister we hear your opposed to the view that the issue on gender-based violence lies in the whole society at large. It remains true that specific failures to properly appreciate the seriousness of gender-based violence by different role-players in the criminal justice system is part of the problem for the general approach to the gender-based violence.
What are you going to do to ensure that out of this budget of R90 million or otherwise at every official and at every judicial
official tasked with dealing with these matters, while the public appreciates these matters as serious as they are and deals with gender-based violence complains in accordance with the law rather than as opposed to social workers, mediators or pastoral caregivers? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chairperson, this is part of the issues that relates to gender- based violence is part of the training for the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and aspirant prosecutors programme and for the ongoing or lifelong learning within the institution given its prominence in society.
It is also part of the judicial training for both magistrates and the judiciary the judges themselves. So, this is a continuous programme for those that are entering including for a lifelong programme for them to be sensitive and responsive to the societal issues that are being raised about gender-based violence.
Our calls on a day-to-day basis countrywide, they met out very harsh sentences which I believe will continue to act as deterrent and that also shows that some of the matters do go through up until the advanced stage. I think we need to go and work harder to ensure that these matters are not mediated upon as the hon Breytenbach says. One of the Bills does address the issue that relates to the fact that this matters have to go to trial instead of a process of mediation because of the nature and the seriousness of the offence. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Ms X NGWEZI: Hon Minister, in terms of the strategic plan on gender-based violence and femicide, one of the key interventions relating to the strengthening of the criminal justice system involves gender-based violence service delivery training within the criminal justice system.
What progress has been made in this regard and what are the specifics of this particular training? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chairperson, as I have already said it is part of the programme that all prosecutors are doing including their lifelong learning. That includes a programme of aspirant prosecutors as they enter the system. It is also part of the programme of judicial training for both magistrates and the judges and their training and also in their lifelong learning. It has been integrated to enable them to understand and appreciate the subject matter including how it intersect with the criminal justice system and the manner which society view this kind of a matter. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 290:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much hon Chair and thank you hon members for the question. The Armscor budget did not include any COVID-19 related expenditure. In other words, even with the budget which was allocated specifically for COVID-19 for them SA National Defence Force, SANDF and the Department of Defence and Military Veterans as a whole, there was more allocation for Armscor. The second part of the question talks to sector codes. Sector codes have been in place since 2018.It is indeed one area where we have not performed satisfactorily but we are satisfied that least, finally we do have now a Defence Industry Charter which clearly stipulates which areas to prioritise within the defence industry. Our participation in the
COVID-19 related procurement thus offers an opportunity for instance to improve participation of all identified beneficiaries in the codes. As such, our procurement strategy puts emphasis to the objectives of the sector codes. Please let us be clear that, that which was allocated the COVID-19 was not - there was no allocation whatsoever for Armscor. Thank you very much.
Mr T N MMUTLE: Thank you thank you House Chair and thank you to the Minister or for that response. Minister my follow up on the question is that, on the basis of your response: Is there any reason why Armscor as an acquisition agency it is not playing any role in the procurement of personal protective equipment, PPEs?
What is the reason why Armscor as an acquisition agency of the Department of Defence not playing a role? Secondly, to what extent is the Transformation Charter being implemented, as you know the objective is to transform the defence industry which is still white? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much hon member. Hon member your question said, what was the budgeted expenditure of Armscor during the COVID-19 pandemic to date. So, there was no allocation for Armascor. However, when I realised that the SA National Defence Force is likely not to have the capacity to spend the money allocated for COVID-19, we then
invited Armscor to be part of the meetings so that Armscor can assist the SA National Defence Force to scan the environment and see where else this PPEs could be found, because at the time colleagues, the focus was on getting everything and everything from China. Of course when Armscor did scanning of the environment, they came back saying, it is possible for the board of Armscor and the chief executive officer CEO to assist the SA National Defence Force to procure PPEs.
I know that we are at a point now where there is work that is being done between the SA National Defence Force and Armscor. I know that for now there hasn't been any financial transfers to Armscor, but Armscor has been assisting them to identify where to find the PPEs which we require. Thank you very much Chair with regards to that first question.
The second question which relates to the codes, I think for me Chair what is important is that finally, this industry which is not transformed called the defence industry finally has agreed to adopt a charter, pushing, screaming and kicking. A charter which talks to the different codes which must be prioritized. Of course these codes are mainly, the military veterans, women and the broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE.
It is now up to our people, it is up to these sectors that have been mentioned in the Defence Industry Charter to pull their socks up, to make sure that the form formidable companies and that they meet the requirements as stipulated in the tenders which come out from Armscor, be on their own and be - what should I say, competitors who are credible so that they can benefit. Of course one of the instructions I gave you the defence industry as a whole was that, they need – those who have made it in this sector, those who have long enough, who are well organised in the sector should hold the hands of the young players who are coming into the industry, walk with them and assist them to be at the level where they can compete in a fair manner. Thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you very much Chair. Minister the budgets of Armscor were adjusted downwards. They committed themselves to austerity measures to ensure more funding available to fight the COVID-19 pandemic. The Deputy Minister confirmed today in line with the commitment made by Armscor that, not only will there being no such ... [Inaudible] ... but that no bonuses will be paid out in respect of the previous and the current financial years.
Further can you commit that no money will be spent again on hunting trips, jazz festivals or other luxuries and nonessential staff entertainment expenses? I thank you
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much hon member, thank you Chair. Chairperson the austerity measures and because of that and the decision not to pay bonuses was actually an initiative of Armscor management itself. So mine would be to go back and check and just to make sure that there is oversight, to be ascertain through the board that none of the commitments they have made are not flouted okay. For now, my understanding is that – and this is what at least is reported to me is that, they had taken a decision that they will not take bonuses particularly because they had not done very well by way of meeting the acquisition needs of the SA National Defence Force.
You also mentioning that they will not spend money on jazz and hunting etc. I would imagine that all government departments and all entities of government; including the state entities that obviously due to these austerity measures, and the challenges we hear from the Minister of Finance every day about the state of our national fiscus that, there would be no board members or even CEOs or any manager who will take decisions that will further drain our national fiscus.
My view is that these are adults, responsible adults, people who know that there is a shareholder which is government. I represent the shareholder and therefore they have to be accountable, and
anyone who transgresses we would have to bear the consequences. I am of the view that, they themselves having agreed to all of these that none of that would happen. But of course human beings are human beings, so we will have to keep a very hawkish eye on them and make sure that the are no such violations hon members. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Information technology, IT people please take care that the Chair does not get muted. I think that is high treason for the Chair to be muted during the session. It is tantamount to high treason. The third supplementary question will be asked by Ms O M C Maotwe. Hon member Maotwe!
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much House Chair. Minister, as part of cost-cutting measures across departments in response to the economic impact of COVID-19 pandemic. The transfer from Department of Defence to Armscor has been decreased by approximately R120 million which impact on the ability of the entity to function. What plans do you have in place to make Armscor a self-sufficient arms manufacturing entity that is able to manufacture, market and maintain its own product. I thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much hon member. Hon member let me start by just clarifying something which that, Armscor is not a manufacturing entity. Armscor is an acquisition agency on the SA National Defence Force. In other words, where there are capabilities we require as the Department of Defence, we then go to Armscor and then Armscor goes around and check who are the companies who will make these capabilities available to the SA Defence Force.
So yes indeed, there has been a cutting of budget, there is reprioritisation. This reprioritisation colleagues, is cross- cutting, it is all over in the whole of government. So obviously Armscor too would have found itself in a situation where there must now deal with what they have and reprioritise. Of course, I am also aware of the fact that, Armscor works with many other entities which are conducting research and development on a whole lot of things for the SA National Defence Force.
We do not believe that the mandate of Armscor will be affected by the budget cuts. Of course we do believe that, their mandate will be affected by the challenges which are encountered by the whole of the defence industry, because with the budget cuts and with the challenges of our national fiscus in South Africa now, we have a situation as you read every day where for instance our own state-
owned entity called Denel is in a sense going down. As Denel goes down, it goes down with the smaller defence industries who depend on Denel. Denel of course depends in the main client of Denel which is the Department of Defence.
So with all know that, with the challenges of the budget, it impacts negatively on the work of Armscor it impacts negatively - the fact that Denel is going down, it impacts negatively on the work of Armscor. It also impacts negatively on the entire defence industry in South Africa. So, yes hon members but it is not so much - the budget cuts of the SA Defence Force it’s more the defence industry in the country which seems to be going down and going down because of the national fiscus in South Africa. Thank you.
Mr O M C MAOTWE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member.
Mr O M C MAOTWE: So, in short the Minister is saying she has got no plans to transform Armscor into a manufacturing entity. I take that
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): We are coming to the last supplementary question on this question. It will be asked by hon R N Cebekhulu.
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Sihlalo, Mahlobo
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Baba Ngwezi.
Mnu X NGWEZI: Cha, umhlonishwa uCebekhulu imibuzo yakhe ibizobuzwa yimina yonke. Ngifisa ukuthi sesivala ngisho ukuthi uNgqongqoshe uwuphendule kahle umbuzo ebengizowubuza. Ngiyathokoza kakhulu.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Ngiyabonga baba uNgwezi.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, hon
member.
IsiZulu:
Nk H O MKHALIPI: We Sihlalo, kungani ilungu elihloniphekile uNgwezi lisikhombise uwodilobhu walo ekubeni enelimuva esanikwa lona?
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Angikuzwanga.
Mr M HLENGWA: Awukahle bo. Ungenaphi kowodilobhu? Ungenaphi?
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did not hear you, hon Mkhaliphi. Shall we continue. Question number 278 ... [Interjections.] Mrs Mkhaliphi please ... [Interjections] ...Hon Ngwezi, hon Mkhaliphi allow me to continue please.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Ok, I withdraw.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R DYANDYI): Hon House Chair!
Hon House Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): There are Rules by the way which apply to situations of this nature. Please don’t force us to go that route. Thank you very much. Question number 278 has been asked by the hon L L Van der Merwe to the Minister of Home Affairs.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R DYANDYI): Hon House Chair!
Hon House Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member! Yes hon member!
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R DYANDYI): It is hon Dyantyi
here in the Chamber.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Dyantyi!
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R DYANTYI): The time allocated for questions has expired. This is where we get to the end of the questions for today. It has expired. We should not proceed to the next. [Interjections]
IsiZulu:
Mnu X NGWEZI: Ibisishilo Inkatha. Inkatha ibisithe sesivala.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon Dyantyi. [Interjections] Hon members thank you. The hon Dyantyi has done justice to the session. [Interjections]
The Council adjourned at 18:10.
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