Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 26 May 2016

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

THURSDAY, 26 MAY 2016

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

The Council met at 14:02

The House Chairperson: Committees, Oversight, Co-operative Governance and Intergovernmental Relations took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

members, I have been informed that the whispery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice except for motions in respect of the Order Paper.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chairperson, if you indulge me, may I start with the motion written in yellow, referring to the fact that the matter on the Joint Ad Hoc Committee on the appointment of the board members not served today.

I move that the motion be adopted.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is there any

objection?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, just before we vote, I know the voting is going to take place on a provincial basis; but just on a point of order, I would like to refer you to my home screen over here, with regards to the other votes of today and specifically the column that says quorum. The quorum over there says 30, and with regards to what happened yesterday, I just want to know whether that

30 is indeed correct as our interpretation yesterday of the Constitution, or whether you would like this to wipe the egg of your colleagues‘ face instead of ours? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

it is not linked to what we are discussing. There are no objections in the motion by the Chief Whip. We now come to the motion in the order paper as printed in the name of the Chief Whip.

SUSPENSION OF FIRST ORDER

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice: That the First Order on the Order Paper be deferred.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

SUSPENSION OF THE CONSIDERATION OF AN APPROPRIATION BILL

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the motion printed in my name in the Order Paper as follows:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed since the committee‘s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the Appropriation Bill [B3 - 2016] (National Assembly).

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF VOTES AND SCHEDULE – APPRORPRIATION BILL AND

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr S J MOHAI: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, thank you for the opportunity to present the statement on the Appropriation Bill. It is just a day after the people of South Africa joined the rest of the continent in celebrating Africa Day. The great visionaries gathered in 1963 to form an Organisation of African Unity. Today, under the leadership of the African Union, the continent pledges to work together to cultivate peace, economic growth and prosperity for the continent.

Last evening, the President of the Republic inspired the rest of the people of South Africa when we quipped that Africa‘s time has arrived, that the task of working for a better Africa and a better world remains uppermost on our agenda and that industrialisation will play a critical role in rebuilding the continent‘s economy.

The Bill was tabled in the National Assembly during the tabling of the National Budget by the Minister of Finance, Gordhan, on 24 February 2016. The Bill has been passed by the National Assembly and referred to the National Council of Provinces on 18 May 2016 for concurrence; thereafter the Bill was referred to the committee for consideration and report to the House. This is a section 77 Bill which the committee processed in terms of section 77 Bill‘s procedures.

The Bill provides for the appropriation of money from National Revenue Fund in terms of section 213 of the Constitution of 1996,

section 15 of the Public Finance Management Act of 1999. Although this is a section 77 Bill not directly affecting provinces, the Bill indirectly affects provinces as it is a money Bill that appropriates funds to national departments with concurrent provincial functions.

Furthermore, it funds issues of national interests, international relations, economic development, job creation, security, social security and social cohesion which have direct implication of provinces. During the 2016 state of the nation address, President Zuma reiterated that government is embarking on an aggressive infrastructure development programme to stimulate growth. The President further reiterated on the Nine-Point Plan announcing 2015-

16 in response to sluggish economic growth. Some of the measures included in the Nine-Point Plan are more effective implementation of a higher impact Industrial Policy Action Plan and resolving the energy challenges, prioritising water and sanitation as well as transport infrastructure project.

When the Minister of Finance presented the 2016 Budget, he indicated that there is a resilience South Africa making hard choices in difficult times. He further indicated that in response to the deteriorating economic outlook and heightened risk of external shocks, the 2016 Budget sets a course of more rapid fiscal consolidation, narrowing the budget deficit more quickly than projected and stabilising the growth of public debt.

The country has recently witnessed positive reactions by the markets to government budget proposals. The current budget focus on fiscal consolidation, stabilising debt and efficient spending plans. The International Monetary Fund, IMF, and credit rating agencies responded positively to government attempts to consolidate its finances. The IMF mission noted that the government is making a welcome progress in addressing infrastructure bottlenecks, especially in the electricity sector, and had committed to state- owned enterprise reform and its strengthening public procurement.

The IMF mission further indicated that the comprehensive package of structural reforms remain the preferable option to create jobs and reduce inequality.

More recently, credit rating agency, Moody‘s, decided to keep South Africa credit rating as is. We salute the work that the Minister of Finance has been doing in this regard and the rest of government.

We now await the outcome of the fellow credit rating agencies, Fitch and Standard & Poor‘s on 4 Friday, June. The Bill appropriate a total amount of R721, 1 billion in 2016-17 to address key government spending priorities as stated in the NDP, state of the nation address and 2016 Budget Review. For example, public sector infrastructure spending over the 2016 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period is estimated to the total of R865,4 billion. He current financial year‘s infrastructure spending is about

R129 billion. State-owned companies continue to account for the bulk

of capital investment spending a projected R337 billion over the next three years and about R105,1 billion in this financial year.

Provinces are expected to spend R206 billion on public infrastructures over the MTEF period whilst municipalities are forecasted to spend R175, 6 billion over the same period. Economic infrastructure accounts for 75% of the total public infrastructure spending. In social services, infrastructure accounts for 22%, while education and health, infrastructure spending accounts for 6% and 3% respectively. Other priorities that are addressed by allocations within the Bill are energy expenditure at R41,3 billion, drought relief at R1 billion, water and sanitation infrastructure projects at R32,2 billion, as well as transport and logistics at

R29,4 billion.

The committee certified that through the 2016 Budget and in particular, allocations within the Bill the department demonstrated that government is committed to translate fiscal plans into concrete actions that will ensure that South Africa remains an investment grade country.

We regard budget as a very important instrument to change the lives of our people for the better and ensure that our country prospers and assert itself in the community of nations.

To conclude, the Select Committee on Appropriations - having considered the Appropriation Bill 3 of 2016, referred to it and classified by Joint Tagging Mechanism, a section 77 Bill - reports that is has agreed to the Bill without any other amount amendments. We only noted objections from the DA and the EFF. I therefore propose that the House approves the Bill. Thank you.

Vote No 1 — Presidency — put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms B ENGELBRECHT (DA): Chairperson, I absolutely hate horror movies, but I would like to share certain scenes from a horror movie of disastrous proportions unfolding in this beloved – a horror movie affecting the lives of every citizen and especially the lives of the 8,9 million unemployed.

The backdrop to this horror is the slowest-growing economy since 2009, South Africa‘s debt threatened by a credit downgrade to junk status, and an expanded unemployment rate of 35%.

The first scene is the Gupta scene, in which influential friends use a national key point to transport guests to a wedding. The Nkandla scene – a R215 million private home upgrade. The secret nuclear power deal with Russia. The sacking of ex-Minister Nene. The

R603 million Airbus leasing scene, with Dudu Myeni as best supporting actress.

And so the screen is filled with scenes that will forever go down as the end of the beginning.

We as South Africans cannot support a budget when the President has failed to deliver and is prepared to compromise the Constitution to protect himself from oversight. The ruling by the 11 judges was unanimous. This President and the ANC-led Parliament acted against the Constitution by failing to uphold, defend and respect the Constitution of South Africa.

No longer can the citizens of this country be expected to support this government, and neither will the DA support this Budget Vote.

Mr M KHAWULA (IFP): Hon Chairperson, the IFP would like to say the following in respect of Vote 1.

Firstly, we are raising our concern that the Presidency does not have an oversight committee. There is no standing committee or portfolio committee of Parliament in respect of the Presidency. We have repeatedly raised this concern. We are still raising it. We would like to see in the future a situation where Parliament is able to exercise oversight over the Presidency through a committee of Parliament. This will improve the spending so that in future we do not see another Nkandla saga — whoever may be our next Nkandla — so that this does not happen again. Bad decisions have been taken, and

these bad decisions are not controlled effectively because of this lack of oversight.

We would also like to see the Presidency improving on spending. So far the Presidency has suffered from wasteful expenditure on appeals which do not see the light of day in court. Each time there is an appeal, it is wasteful expenditure because the Presidency is losing

... or rather government is losing all these appeals in court.

All this is because there is too much power which does not get checked in the Presidency.

So, for the IFP, this issue of oversight over the Presidency is important. This will not just improve the image of an individual, but will also improve the image of the Office which is the First Office of our country. Thank you.

Mr S J MOHAI (ANC): Chairperson, the Presidency is the nerve-centre of government. It co-ordinates policy synergy and their functionality and alignment. It monitors policies and programmes.

The President of the Republic of South Africa supervises the vision of the National Development Plan, NDP, which is a rallying plan for all South Africans. It‘s a plan that will change the lives of the people for the better.

South Africa is better off today that the President has established infrastructure co-ordinating mechanisms. We see construction of dams, railway lines, and roads, and an accelerated pace of change in our country because of the Presidency.

We in the ANC believe in a strong development state that has the capacity to deliver services to our people. We reject the view expressed particularly by the DA that seeks to weaken our government to be a laissez faire approach that is unable to intervene. They do so in a narrow manner of seeking to protect a narrow regional view. The Western Cape cannot hide any more. The Western Cape is part of South Africa and we will continue as the ANC to ensure that our policy positions reach out to our people, regardless of those who seek to hide behind an agenda that seeks to undermine the ongoing transformation agenda of our country.

We support the Presidency. Operation Phakisa, the innovation on the oceans economy is the ability to provide leadership to South Africa. They have run out of issues. Continue to be stuck ... [Inaudible.]

... political parties that do not understand the future of our country. We support the vote as the ANC. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): To make it simple, in this row, at the far back, if there‘s people ... Hon members that would be abstaining, they would be on the other side, and this is the people that are voting against ... these ones ... those that are

voting in favour ... then I need their ... [Inaudible.] ... honourable ... [Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, sorry, I didn‘t mean to disturb you, but I just thought, through you, you can always just ask hon Khawula to join and take a seat next to Julius, it would just make it easier for you to control things. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. No, no, no! [Interjections.] Order, members! Can the hon members that are doing the counting assist us? [Interjections.]

Yes, now, hon members, we are dealing with Vote 1 now. I don‘t want us to have that mistake again when we are done and then people are saying no, I thought you are dealing with Vote 3. Now we are dealing with Vote 1.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

Ayes - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G;

Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

Noes - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put.

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and the African National Congress.

Declarations of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the NCOP as part of Parliament has a specific role to fulfil with regards to representing the provinces and legislation. It further has to ensure that the citizens of our country contributes to the legislation processes and also to ensure that legislation regulates those things that matters and influences the lives of each and every person; rich and poor, connected and not connected.

We found ourselves in a constant battle to ensure that the legislative processes are managed according to the Constitution and the rules. We further find it difficult to accept that legislation

has to be rushed through the NCOP in six or eight weeks, while we are responsible to represent our provinces. We often need more time to enable provinces to ensure effective public participation in the legislative process.

The principles of fairness and representivity are not always implemented during plenaries, which implies that freedom of speech, democracy and a fair government are not always practised in this House.

The process of reviewing the rules has started in the Fourth Parliament and we are now mid-term in the Fifth Parliament and rules have not yet been adopted. Hon Chair, this House needs to finalise rules that restore the functions and the dignity of the NCOP. The DA does not support this vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr H E MATEME: Hon House Chairperson, the people‘s movement which is the ANC supports the Parliament Budget Vote. We say this because our Parliament remains one of the fundamental pillars of our thriving democracy. The Budget Vote reasserts our collective efforts to work tirelessly to ensure that this Parliament continues to represent the highest embodiment of the people of South Africa. We will continue to ensure that this Parliament serves as a platform for robust debates and continues to pass laws that will improve the lives and the living conditions of our people.

We thank channel 408 TV station and some unfounded assertions were made here about the Chief Whip of this institution. Firstly, 86% of the members in this House are new and if parachuting means you are new in this institution, then there are quite a number of parachutes in this House, including from the DA.

Hon Chairperson, as a deployee of the ANC, I rose through the ranks. Any assertion that seems to claim that I was parachuted by the secretary of the ANC is not only devoid of truth, but totally insulting to my service, to the ANC and the entire congress movement.

Like all members of this Council I was deployed by my political party, I intend to serve my movement and the people of South Africa. As for my acceptance speech, those who went to school up to a certain level understood my acceptance speech and they gave me a standing ovation. The DA must watch the clip once more. Only those who did not understand figures of speech thought that I did not know.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Chief Whip, let me entertain hon Michalakis. Sorry, take your seat.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is: The Chief Whip is, with respect, misleading this House. When the DA made comments about her, not a single one of her colleagues got up to defend her on that. It means that they were agreeing with us. Not a single one of them got up to defend her. She is misleading this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Michalakis that is not a point of order. Hon Hattingh.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, we expect that the Chief Whip should set an example, when the Chair addresses her that she should sit down, keep quiet and listen to your point of order. She cannot disregard you as Chair. [Interjections.]

An HON FEMALE MEMBER: What is your point of order?

Mr C HATTINGH: This is why Parliament is in such a situation where there is a point of order of disrespect to the Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

hon Hattingh, can you take your seat, so that I address your point of order. Number one, she sat because I ordered her to sit and address her and I gave the opportunity to hon Michalakis.

The second point that you are raising, now instead of doing the correct thing of addressing me as the presiding officer, you want to entertain other hon members and that was not a point of order. Can you conclude hon Chief Whip.

Dr H E MATEME: Chairperson, thank you very, very much. As this august House, the House of the politically matured and the people who are cool-minded and cool-headed, we do not work and decide on kneejerk reactions. We came here and studied the situation and for this reason as we come back we have made propositions that we will have an innovative way of dealing with motions and debates.

We remain committed to ensuring that in the third term we shall table the revised rules of this Council which process has gone a long way to make sure that we have rules that move with times.

We must put an end to the practice of those people who are moonlighting as actors, as party administrators, self-diagnosed patients and untrained political sangomas who are perpetually absent from this House. We must put an end to this practice which is nothing but stealing from the people who pay us every month. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Van Lingen, thank you. Why are you standing?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is: Is it parliamentary to call other hon members in this House as untrained political sangomas?

An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Yes. They are untrained political sangomas.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order, hon members.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I do not mind to be a trained one.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order hon members. Let me address it. Let me address this point of order. Take your seat, hon member. I am addressing it.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, the declaration is three minutes. So, we either going to stick to three minutes or we are going to sit here until tomorrow morning.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order, hon members! Let me deal with the second one. When dealing with the declarations, you are correct hon Van Lingen, it is strictly three minutes. She is correct and she is reminding us that

it is three minutes, but when we entertain the points of orders, they stop the watch automatically.

Then coming to the second issue, let me appeal to all of you hon members, in terms of Rule 46, that for us to be able to maintain the decorum, let us refrain from using offensive and unbecoming language. That rule is very clear about the offensive and the unbecoming language. I am appealing to all of you. We now come to voting. Hon Smit.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, just on a point of clarity. I want to know whether the hon Chief Whip is the Chief Whip of the House and not the Chief Whip of the ANC. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order, members! As a presiding officer, hon Smit is stating a fact and it is not an issue that we can subject to a decision like that. The Chief Whip is your Chief Whip and is the Chief Whip of the House.

Do not worry hon Van Lingen, hon Labuschagne will assist me. Hon members let us now come to voting and we are on Vote No 2.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; , M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Then

coming to a point that hon Labuschagne is raising, I understand that I was given a wrong figure. I was given a wrong figure. Let us go back to Vote No 1 – Presidency. It is in favour the correct one was suppose to be 29. No! It is a point of order that is correct. Order hon members! It is a point of order that is correct. Hon Labuschagne was assisting us.

Twenty nine voted in favour, 11 against and there were no abstention. The majority have voted in favour, I therefore declare the vote as agreed to. Thanks for the assistance. I was correcting the mistake which occurred when we were dealing with Vote No 1. We now come to Vote No 3.

Vote No 3 – Communications – put

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, the IFP objects to Vote No 3 – Communications.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, the intended regulation of the face of the media practitioners is a step in the wrong direction. Minister Muthambi in her Budget Vote Speech blamed the media for the reporting that the government is corrupt and helpless. Taxpayer‘s money cannot be spent to suppress the freedom of media. Corruption is real and people have a right to know about it.

The Western Cape dismissal of SABC and Hlaudi Motsoeneng application for leave to appeal the decision, the decision set aside by Mr Hlaudi Motsoeneng‘s permanent appointment as SABC‘s OO is a victor for all who value our Constitutional democracy and an independent public broadcaster. Knowing the Public Protector‘s finding that Mr Motsoeneng lied about his qualifications, abused his power by increasing his own salary from R1,5 million to R2,4 million paging senior staff members, irregularly increased salaries of some staff members, Minister Muthambi still went ahead and permanently appointed a man who is clearly not suitable for this job.

The appeal process is a waste of taxpayer‘s money. Any one supporting this budget must bear in mind that you are supporting a

department which is at the heart of state capture. The DA does not support this budget Vote.

Ms E PRINS: House Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I rise to congratulate the Minister of Communication, hon Muthambi, and the department on their successful and speedy rollout of the digital migration projects since she assumed office. The House in this regard must note the following significant achievements: The implementation of the Digital Terrestrial Transmission, DTT, in the Northern Cape at areas such as Keimoes, Brandvlei, Carnarvon, Van Wyksvlei, and Williston.

In addition, in provinces like Limpopo, Mpumalanga, and to a certain extent Free State weekly registrations of indigent television owning households are ongoing. As the department continues to work with all structures including our traditional leaders and strengthen its footprint in communities. The 1st February 2016 has been announced as the commencement of the duly elimination performance period. The department is working with all role-players in an endeavour to complete the Northern Cape SKA on or before June 2016 deadline.

A total of 2 815 youth will be trained as installers in all municipalities across the country and thereby creating jobs and bringing about the much needed skills base to the youth in our communities.

We take pride that since July 2015 the department has launched public awareness campaigns to educate our people about the need to migrate to the benefit of DTT ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Prins, sorry, can you take your seat, there is a point of order from an hon Khawula.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, there is a point of order. I do recall that our colleagues from the EFF could not be part of these proceedings last year. Because when we started they were outside and they were locked out because the rule is when you have started nobody could come in or go out. Now, I see that the hon Minister has just nicked into the House. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No.

That is not a point of order. We lock it when we are voting. You are welcome, hon Minister. You are welcome Hon Minister. [Applause.]

Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, public awareness is being rolled out on a weekly basis in Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Northern Cape. This programme will not only enhance the quality of life of our people but will boost the economy of the country and create jobs that will improve the socioeconomic circumstances of our people. The budget will enable the department to carry out its mandate within the specific timeframes. This includes reducing the cost of

communication while also promoting the universal access to the means of communication and intervention that will improve the quality life of our people. The ANC supports this Appropriation Bill.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, the IFP is objecting to communications; firstly, we feel that the Department of Communications and the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services are unnecessarily split. This is a waste of resources because these two departments naturally belong to one field. And they were not supposed to have been separated.

Secondly, as we approach elections, we do want to say that we are looking into a free, fair and equitable coverage of all the political parties in the country. This does not happen with the SABC. The SABC has always been and continues to be the mouthpiece propaganda machinery of the ruling party. And for as long as this is happening then the SABC does not belong to the country but to a particular party.

Therefore, we object to this as the IFP and say to the powers that be bring telecommunications and communications together they belong together. Therefore we will abstain, hon Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Thank you. In order to be sure, let those who are in favour lift up their hands. And I will be assisted. And we come to those who are

abstaining. Thank you. Those who are against - we will not take it for granted. We want to be sure of the numbers. Thank you, and then let us get the numbers.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, there are members who are walking around while we are voting and I don‘t think that should be allowed.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order hon members. Abstain, one; against 11; in favour, 28. The majority voted in favour, I therefore declare Vote 3 as agreed to.

Mr C HATTINGH: on a point of order, a member walked around during the voting process; that could influence the counting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No.

Hon Hattingh, let me address your point of order.

Mr C HATTINGH: A member walked around during the voting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No

they can‘t walk around it is wrong.

Mr C HATTINGH: It has happened just now!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I

am expecting hon Labuschagne and hon Ncitha as they are the two

people and hon Khawula as the person who was moving around because he was abstaining.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, I am not referring to any hon member, a whip or whatever, my point is that members should not be allowed to walk around during voting because that invalidate the voting and that has happened during the vote.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Yes, I agree with you. Members must not walk around. Hon Faber.

Mr W F FABER: Chair, I feel and I am happy that Minister Gordhan is here because, you know, we are having this electronic equipment here, and to me this is what we call wasteful expenditure. We are not using the staff for voting and I would like you to rule on this. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Faber, that is not a point of order.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).

Vote 4 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS (DA): Hon House Chairperson, the residents are taking to the streets, displaying their dissatisfaction with the state of corruption that exists in their councils and the lack of service delivery. In the Western Cape we have Kannaland, in Mpumalanga we have Thaba Chweu, in Gauteng we have Westonaria, in Limpopo we have Thabazimbi, in KwaZulu-Natal we have Msunduzi, and in the Eastern Cape we have Gariep. These ANC-led municipalities are in dire need of intervention – not political intervention but administrative intervention as highlighted in the report from the fourth Parliament.

We acknowledge the improve audit outcomes but note that there is still a long way to go and that irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure is still too high. Municipalities that have been placed under section 139(1) (b), administration, or (c), dissolution, have proven to have failed in ensuring that the oversight implementation of these dysfunctional municipalities regressed instead of improving.

The costs incurred during administration and the fact that proper exit plans are not enforced borders on further fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Hon Motlashuping you must listen, you might learn something. In some instances we have witnessed council‘s financial debt increase extensively when placed under administration.

The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, has failed to act both decisively and with speed in dealing with some dysfunctional municipalities by not placing them under immediate administration, but rather waiting for residents to take to the streets with violent service delivery protests and barricading of national roads. This is eminent of political intervention rather than administrative administration.

The Municipal Demarcation Board has also failed to ensure that there is transparency. It bowed to the pressure from the ANC and allowed for the gerrymandering of wards and outer boundaries in terms of section 22 of the Municipal Demarcation Act in hotly contested councils to benefit the ANC. But, here again, insufficient funding has been allocated to this department to ensure that those municipalities that have been amalgamated are in a state of readiness immediately after the elections.

There is also underfunding for assistance to the provinces and councils with reference to the disaster management departments: The inadequate provision of equitable share to municipalities and Cogta‘s eagerness to accede to National Treasury‘s threat to withhold the equitable share to municipalities that were in areas to Eskom, thereby increasing the financial burden on councils. The DA therefore, based on the above declaration, opposes the budget for Vote 4 for Cogta. Thank you! [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA (IFP): Hon Chairperson, the IFP would like to raise a concern in respect of the Municipal Demarcation Board, the MDB, whose decisions are not service delivery driven but the decisions of the board are intent on political point scoring. This has been reflected where boundaries are adjusted so as to suite a particular political party during voting.

Such decisions are not taken in order to benefit the communities on the ground. Whenever there is a party that is in power, the Municipal Demarcation Board will then come a big hammer and adjust boundaries so as to make so-and-so win and to make so-and-so lose.

The corruption in the municipalities is driven from regional offices of a certain political party. I did state this even last year. I am repeating this, hon Chairperson, to say: For as long as the powers of these secretaries are not curtailed - for as long as they are the ones who tell managers who to appoint, who to employ, who to influence a tender to – you will not stop this corruption.

In fact, when the Deputy Chairperson of SA Local Government Association, Salga, was making a presentation in this House last year, he did say this. I am repeating what the Deputy Chairperson of Salga told you at a workshop. There is poor service delivery due to this cadre deployment. This has to be attended to.

On Back to Basics strategy, the IFP has always stated that we support the Back to Basics strategy but it cannot be used for wrong reasons. It can only be used as a monitoring tool. It is not a service delivery yardstick. So, Back to Basics is good and is of course a copycat of the IFP principles [Laughter.] [Interjections.] We support it, we like it, but not as a yardstick for service delivery. It is only a monitoring tool.

Service delivery protests are testimony that things are not right in the country. In fact, even the response to service delivery protests in the country has been very poor because there is nothing to say and there is nothing to do. People are protesting because of what is happening to them. They feel it and now they are showing it. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M J MOHAPI (ANC): Chairperson, perhaps you must start clarifying: It is not section 159; it is supposed to be section 139. I think the DA is quoting the law out of context. [Interjections.] In terms of the protests, we have observed a decline in protests in our country, which we really welcome as the ANC. Hon Khawula, the Municipal Demarcation Board, the MDB, is an independent exercise, of which we also say: Allow the MDB to finalise the process. As the ANC, we support this Budget Vote.

The dawn of democracy in 1994 created a new dispensation in which access to basic services such as housing, water and sanitation were

recognised as fundamental human rights. South Africa inherited high levels of poverty and it continues to be confronted with unequal and often inadequate access to resources‘ infrastructure and social services.

To us, the ANC, approval or support to this Budget Vote means a lot. It means a lot not only to us but also to our communities: The support towards departmental programmes that will help to establish partnership and working collaboration with other sector departments and the private sector for revival and activation of economic activities; and participation towards sustainable livelihoods in traditional communities which have been neglected for years by the apartheid regime led by the forefathers of the DA.

It means support towards promotion of cultural and customary way of life which conforms to the Bill of Rights and constitutional democratic principles ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Julius, why are you standing?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, hon Mohapi is deliberately misleading the House and I think we already dealt with this one. There was a ruling on this. I am a DA member; let him call my forefathers that did something to that effect. My forefathers! He is very young man; he is small. Does he know my forefathers? Thank you, Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Dlamini, take your seat. Hon Julius, that is not a point of order. Can you conclude, hon Mohapi? Oh, hon Dlamini!

Ms L C DLAMINI: Chair, I am standing on point of order. Hon Julius is calling the hon member a young man - a young boy. Is it parliamentary?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No!

Hon Julius ... [Interjections.] Order, members! Hon members, no! Hon Manopole! Hon members, we are going to have a long day. I have already appealed to all of you that as hon members, let‘s refrain from using offensive and unbecoming language. I never referred to a particular hon member; I referred to all of you, irrespective of your party. Refrain from offensive language. Let‘s stick to what we are doing; otherwise we will end up compromising the decorum of this House. Conclude hon Mohapi! [Interjections.] I am looking at it!

Mr M J MOHAPI (ANC): Aligned to these outcomes orientated goals, the department will develop programmes through this budget that will help communities to reduce a number of deaths resulting from cultural initiation practices during this period. To us, the ANC, any loss of life counts; to the DA, only votes count. Hence, they don‘t support this Budget Vote. Indeed, this is hypocrisy at its best!

The department submits that through this Budget Vote, they will develop a plan that would include amongst others hosting an indaba of traditional leaders. We support this Budget Vote because we have seen though Back to Basics that the municipalities that were in distress and were dysfunctional improving their performance. The likes of Moqhaka Local Municipality, who have been receiving disclaimers for years, have improved to obtain a positive audit outcome.

The choice of any saying person will be obvious, come 3 August 2016, where the ANC will emerge victorious because South Africa is a better place to stay than it was before 1994 during your apartheid era. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

Voting:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): We

now come to the voting. Those that are voting in favour, please raise your hands. Thank you! Those that are abstaining, please raise your hands. Are you abstaining? [Laughter.] Those that are against, please raise your hands. Thank you! The results of the voting are as follows ... [Interjections.] Hon Hattingh!

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, despite your ruling, that member again walked around during the vote. [Interjections.] Well, anybody can count. No, you don‘t look behind. The member was looking behind her. [Interjections.] She is not allowed to walk around during voting, and you ruled on that, please!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Hattingh, can you assist: Which member is that?

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Mkethi, from the Eastern Cape.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Ncitha! Ncitha! Ncitha! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No!

Hon Hattingh, I have allowed hon Ncitha and hon Labuschagne to do that.

Mr C HATTINGH: But, hon Chair, my point is – and you have ruled on that: When a member walks around, other members cannot count. That is actually a motion of no confidence in the Table Staff in front, who should be doing the counting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

that is not a point of order, hon Hattingh. Can you take your seat, please? Can you take your seat? Hon Hattingh, can you take you seat?

Order, members! The results are: Abstaining, zero; against, eleven; and in favour, 29. The majority have voted in favour.

AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

I therefore declare Vote 4 as agreed to (with Democratic Alliance dissenting). [Applause.]

Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, before I start. I‘m still learning here about walking around and ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr. A J Nyambi):

Hon Hattingh

Mr C HATTINGH: But I will stand here. Hon Chair, we note the decrease of the allocation in this budget ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr. A J Nyambi):

You are protected, hon Hattingh. Order, members! Let us not drown him. Hon Hattingh.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, can we perhaps just get order then I can start?

Nobody is allowed to converse loudly in the chamber.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr. A J Nyambi):

Members! Hon Mhlanga. Can you continue hon Hattingh.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I will now start but the colleague on my left hand please ... they just tuned the volume a bit down.

We note the decrease of allocation in this budget by almost

R200 million and we wish to express our concern that this will have a significant impact on delivery to our citizens.

There is still a lot of progress that needs to be made with the registration – for instance – of new births. Too many birth registry systems in hospitals; either no staff, have connectivity problem or simply dysfunctional.

There are also connectivity problems with many of the mobile offices; and unless this problem is addressed, the department will never achieve the intended outcomes.

While senior departmental officers are working very hard to address the challenges of this department at the senior level; the Batho Pele principle, its spirit and the professionalism, still lack at home affairs offices.

The treatment of members of the public in some home affairs officers is unacceptable and is to the detriment of the image that the department wishes to portray and enforce; and unfortunately also by extrapolation, tainting the hard working and efficient Department of Home Affairs officials.

The Deputy Minister in this House did attempt to address- during the debate – the embarrassing situation that is in existence ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Hattingh, can you take your seat. Hon Makue, why are you standing?

Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I‘m diabetic and I‘m going to embarrass myself. I need to be granted permission to do what I have to Chair. Can I be granted permission to leave the House and come back before the voting? I am diabetic Chair and ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

hon, hon ... [Interjection.]

Mr E MAKUE: Chair, I am diabetic ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Let

me deal with it. You can go out but you can‘t disrupt a member that is speaking. I thought you were addressing what he is raising because that is not a point of order in what he was raising.

Sorry hon Hattingh for that, can you continue.

Hon Labuschagne?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order, Chair. We are not busy with voting, we are doing our declarations. Rule 66 say that any member can move in and out of the Council but before we have to vote, the bells will have to ring and then members are not allowed to come in and out. So that member was in his right to leave the chamber because we are not busy with the action of voting ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Labuschagne, you are correct and I‘ve already said that. That is why I‘m saying it was wrong of him to stand up and disturb hon Hattingh;

because there‘s nothing wrong, that is why when the Minister came in I made a ruling when hon Khawula raised it.

Hon Hattingh, can you continue please. Sorry for that.

Mr C HATTINGH: Apology accepted, thank you. But hon Chair, it explains and underlines the untrainability of some members, they do not understand our rules. [Laughter.]

Hon ... you included.

The Deputy Minister did attempt to address some of the deficiencies in the embarrassing situation in existence in some offices. But judged by the steady flow of complaints from members of the public, too little has been done ... [Interjection.]

Mr S J MOHAI: Chairperson, I request you to rule on the statement that is made by hon Hattingh, which is making a serious charge against hon members of this House, that they‘re untrainable whenever members are expressing sentiments. [Interjection.] That‘s very incorrect what hon ... he made a sweeping statement. I‘m not saying

... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Hattingh, can you please refrain from casting aspersion about hon members!

Mr C HATTINGH: From?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Casting aspersion about hon members. Continue.

Mr C HATTINGH: Okay. I will not reflect on the untrainability of members again, thank you Chair.

The Deputy Minister did attempt to address the embarrassing situation in existence – I‘ve said that but I was interrupted by these members so I‘m repeating it – at some offices but judged by the steady flow of complaints from members of the public, too little has been done.

Hon Chair, the DA does not support this budget. Thank you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Even though you have ruled on that, I think I want to agree with hon Hattingh that some members are untrainable. We see that hon Chair ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Dlamini, can you withdraw that part because I‘ve already made a ruling. You can‘t go to my ruling.

Ms L C DLAMINI: I withdraw Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Okay, continue.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, the ANC supports Vote 5 Department of Home Affairs as a caring organisation because it wants this department to protect our borders against unwanted things in the country, especially drugs and human trafficking.

It takes organisations that do not care about its people, like the National Party and the Democratic Party, which are now called DA. It takes those people not to support this budget. Because it means, hon Chair, they don‘t want our borders to be protected. They want our children or our people to be trafficked in and out because it does not affect their members. Unfortunately Chair, they want the votes of those people but they don‘t want them to be in Parliament as you can see.

We also support, hon Chair, as the ANC because we want our people – especially those who‘ll be writing exams – to get IDs. It means that DA; and EFF – of course because - to show that they don‘t care they‘re not here in the House. We do support, DA does not support.

We also support this budget hon Chair, because we want our children who are supposed to be getting social grants, because they get their birth certificates from home affairs. As a caring organisation, the ANC supports that. But it means that the DA does not care for those

people, as they only use them as voting cows. That is why, maybe, they‘re also using trucks that load cattle to transport people with

... [Interjection.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: May I ask you what is a voting cow? Because I‘ve not seen some other [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

members, hon members, hopefully I‘m saying it for the last time now. It is the responsibility of all of you as hon members to maintain the decorum of the House. Refrain from anything that you see is compromising the decorum. Conclude hon Dlamini.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, to date, this department, in terms of the smartcard ID, it has done 4,1 IDs for our people as compared to what the government of the Democratic Party and the National Party, which is the DA today, was doing before.

We feel that this ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Faber, why are you standing?

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, this hon member is definitely misleading the House because the only member of the National Party is hon De Beer sitting here [Laughter.] not us.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

That is not a point of order. Let‘s come to the, order members, order, order Faber, hon Faber, let‘s come to the voting.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, House Chairperson. I don‘t mean to prolong the proceedings too much but I do have a point of order and I just want some clarity on your side.

I‘m very glad that you allowed hon Makue to go out because there are needs coming around while we vote on these different votes, different members will need to go out on different occasions. I would just like some clarity on how you envisage to deal with Rule 66? Because I‘m just afraid one of might be outside and we wouldn‘t know that the vote is going on.

Rule 66(a) says that the bells must be rung. Now, for the sake of time we‘re not doing that today but how do you then envisage that we‘re going to alarm the members that the vote is going to happen? So, when they are outside they know that they should come into the House. What do we have in place of the bells?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Michalakis, all the members that are here when we started are aware that in today‘s session we‘ll be dealing with this thing of voting

... [Interjection] ... you‘ve raised a point of order, I‘m addressing it. I‘m not recognising you; I‘m still ... [Interjection.]

Mr G MICHALAKIS: [Inaudible.] ... decide not to follow the rules. You can‘t respectfully decide to go against the House Rules ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘m

not going ... hon Michalakis, I‘m addressing your point of order,

before I can even finish you‘re standing up and I have not yet recognised you.

I‘m saying, all hon members are aware that in today‘s session we‘ll be voting, of course if the member is out and we‘re getting to that process of voting, there are people that are controlling the door, is not hon members, we‘ve got people that are controlling it. And any member that is getting out, is getting out understanding that he/she is going to come back quickly. That is why there was a problem when hon Makue disturbed hon Hattingh.

But as you‘re putting it, we‘re not ringing the bells when we‘re starting the process of voting, we‘re not doing it ... [Interjection.] ... yes.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I do hear what you‘re saying and you made a ruling. But I want to refer you to the decision, and various complaints that this rule that we‘re not going to ring the bells, that we‘re not going to make use of Rule 66 was not discussed in the Whips Forum, or in the Programming Committee.

This is again, the presiding officer and the ANC or the Whip decide what is going to be done in this House and you just do it. And then you want to tell us we have to be decent people. We are in Parliament, we have to follow rules and this is how it is because this is the way we regulate and we do. Because if people are out

there having a cup of coffee and they don‘t know when they have to come in, the bell must ring. Then we have to decide, we have to consider how are going to go forward. This was not discussed.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

members, hon members, hon members, we ... let me assist you by saying, as we have started we don‘t have a member that has been deprived opportunity to participate in this voting session. Should it happen that we‘re going to experience that situation, let that be brought to my attention. I‘m saying, hon Michalakis ... [Interjection.] ... I‘m saying if there‘s a member that has been deprived that opportunity, let it be brought to my attention so that I can be able to assist and if there‘s a natural call for members, we‘re going to be assisting to make sure that no member is going to be deprived an opportunity to participate in this session. I don‘t want to be bogged down and ...

Vote No 6 International Relations and Co-operations

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr W F FABER (DA): Chairperson, South Africa has global footprints of 126 missions, second only to the United States. While this is admirable, the cost to the South African taxpayers is enormous. The Finance Minister has called for austerity measures. One of the ways

in which the Department of International Relations and Co-operations can comply, is to reduce the number of missions.

The DA calls on the Minister to inform Parliament on the strategy to reduce our missions and to also advise when this strategy will be implemented. While the budget has reduced, it does not go far enough. The commitment to the Britain, Russia, China and South Africa, Brics, is a good intention but the actual amount in rand value over the next six years has not even been properly considered. Given that there are 8,9 million people without job, we should be considering investing our money for jobs in South Africa.

The DA does not support this Budget.

Mr E MAKUE (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the ANC, who leads this country, have been in exile and already established then international relations, are better able to appreciate the importance of international relations in terms of inculcating a culture of human rights in terms of partnering with other parts of the world. We know better how important it is for South Africans to have ease of travel in other parts of the world and our embassies in those countries play a very important role in terms of ensuring that when we as South Africans travel abroad, we will be able to have our embassies to help and take care of us.

When we talk of jobs, we know that it is important for multi- literalism and also for the private to be able to have partnerships with multinational and other businesses in other parts of the world. Our embassies are playing a very important role in ensuring that access. There is therefore for us in the ANC, know prize that we can put to this very admirable status in which we have led this country where we have, as hon Faber said, next to the United States, the biggest number of embassies in the world.

Therefore, we actually regret that there had to be a cut in this Budget. We feel that the Department of International Relations and Co-operation deserves to receive more money for us, but because of fiscal constraints, there is an understanding in that sphere that they to get in. We will not take a hypocritical position, where we come here and we sit with South African passports. Why don‘t we give back the passports if we are not supporters of the work that the department is offering to this country of ours with the great potential that we have to relocate ourselves in the international sphere where we will no longer be the skunk of this earth as Tata Madiba called or a pariah in the rest of the world? We are very grateful of this world and feel privileged to be able to vote in favour of an allocation of funds to the Department of International Relations and Co-operation.

Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

There no division in Vote 6.

Vote agreed to with DA dissenting.

Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put and agreed to.

Vote No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put

Declarations of Vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Public Enterprises was established as a catalyst for privatisation or semiprivatisation of state-owned entities. Currently, the ANC government shies away from the word privatisation. The irony is that we are experiencing a form of privatisation with state-owned enterprises. It is simply being done unfairly by allowing a specific family, the Guptas, to take control and gain tenders and contract in major state-owned enterprises. Growing evidence indicates that state–owned enterprises have been captured by the Guptas. They are not only influencing ministerial appointments, but appointments within the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, themselves, for example,

in Eskom and Denel. All is done with the knowledge and the approval of the ANC government and the President

State-owned companies were created to contribute to economic growth, job creation, industrialisation and transformation. Eskom plans to decommission 10 000 megawatt of power from the aging power stations from 2020 onwards. The goal post was however shifted and now they propose to prolong the lifespan of the aging power stations, but no budget set aside for that. Lack of planning and protection of some interests result in continuing risky packages from the Treasury.

This implies that we all now have to pay the price of increasing costs without any guarantee that we will have sufficient energy or electricity for the next few generations.

The department has no legal mandate. The Minister can only take remedial actions against the SOEs by changing the board. This board is shuffled every time a crisis arises due to the lack of leadership or sometimes due to the politicised leadership.

If the President and the Minister are so serious about restructuring and reforming the SOEs, they should start implementing the recommendations listed in the Presidential Review Committee on State-owned Entities report on the reconstruction of state-owned enterprises. The report has been released three years ago and none of the recommendations has been implemented. We would invest the savings and revenue generated from consolidating and privatisation

of the SOEs to create an environment where there are opportunities for people enterprises. The DA opposes the budget.

Mr J P PARKIES: Chairperson, as the ANC it is our belief that we ought to be lucid about the progress we have made on Eskom. Abrupt load shedding in our country has been circumvented and the programme to provide electricity to our people shall continue to the chagrin of the opposition forces.

They call for loyalty, ability and performance. They say we have appointed the current chief executive officer, CEO, on the basis of loyalty. The DA‘s seditious behaviour and their incorrigible racists supporting them call for the political neutrality and energy sector expertise and experience believing in downward spiral of the entities.

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, with absolute due respect to you, I think it is time that you take a stand against speakers who are misleading the House and the country. Again, I am asking you: is it befitting for the hon member to write a declaration on an attendance slip? It is a total embarrassment to the ANC.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not a point of order.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Parkies also said that DA members are racists and it is not the second time. He actually said on the podium last

year that he is a racist. It is on record that he said, ―I am a racist, so what.‖ But now he is calling us racists. Can you please rule on that because you made an earlier ruling about this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members! Hon Julius, I have to go through Hansard to confirm what you are raising so that I can be able to make a proper ruling.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Ask him.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, that is my ruling now. I‘m saying that I am going to [Interjections.] Hon Parkies conclude.

Mr J P PARKIES: I can repeat what I said.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr. A J Nyambi): Hon Parkies, you cannot repeat what you said because I have already made a ruling.

Mr J P PARKIES: They believe in downward spiral of the entities such as the SA Airways, SAA, PetroSA, SA Post Office, Sapo, Denel and all others with their inside voice calling for the privatisation of Eskom whimsically undermining the consequences of such direction on the lives of ordinary people. They are informed and guided by the randomness and disruptive caprices of their liberal ideology.

Chair, Eskom is up and running to provide services to the people through mercurial and intensive leadership to make it possible for

the continent and our people to access electricity; to create jobs; and for economic growth in our society. [Applause.] Today, household with access to electricity moved from 44% to 85%. We support this budget. [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP has always said that our SOEs suffer from bailouts and also suffer from nonsustainability, it is high time that we see them being redeployed to their line functioning departments because with as they are it is a waste of resources once more.

In fact, the State President in his state of the nation address made a commitment that our SOEs were going to be streamlined and that they were going to be scaled down, but we have not seen this happening. Instead, we have seen more entities being created rather than entities being scaled down.

Let me make one example. The SAA Express and the SAA were created for different purposes. But what is happening now they are working as cross purposes. The SAA and the SA Express have become great competitors whereas when they were established they were created for different fields. You can see that the purpose along the way got lost.

Our entities are also used as cadre deployment fields. All those comrades who have failed elsewhere are redeployed to the state

entities so that they also fail them. It is high time that we see them going to their line function departments. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote 10 – Public Service and Administration:

Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms B ENGELBRECHT (DA): Chairperson, the Public Services Act outlines the responsibility of this department responsible for establishing norms and standards relating to integrity, ethics, conduct and

anticorruption in the public service. Yet, we lose 350 billion to fraud and corruption annually. In February 2014, our President said, the fight against corruption must be intensified. In June 2014, the anticorruption task team and The Hawks have made notable progress in a quest t combat corruption. This work will continue in the next five years. Yet, just a few months later, Anwa Dramat, the head of The Hawks and chairperson of the nation‘s anticorruption task team was removed.

By 2016 the word corruption, was not even mentioned in the president‘s state of the nation address. Over the last 15 years in addition to the anticorruption task team, we have heard various national anticorruption summits, a national anticorruption programme an anticorruption co-ordinating committee, a national integrity system, an anticorruption working group, a special anticorruption unit, a national anticorruption hotline, anticorruption inter ministerial committee and the national anticorruption forum. This is how taxpayer‘s money is being spent.

With continual creations of forums, committees and working units, it is no wonder that only a third of the approximate 2 000 cases a year are referred from the national anticorruption hotline and are never resolved. In addition, according to police statistics, only one third of public servants found guilty of corruption are ever reported to the police. With all this fraud and the small number of

convictions, there are far too many crooks remaining in the system and they all need to be blacklisted.

The Minister recently replied the following; there is currently no measure applied in the public sector to estimate financial losses as a result of corruption. With the above Chairperson, I ask; how can South Africans support a budget when taxpayer‘s money is used without proper vigilance and accountability? How can South Africans support a budget when the department‘s mandate to investigate anticorruption in the public service is not being carried out?

Chairperson, for the sake of our residents the DA cannot support this budget. Thank you.

Ms G M MANOPOLE (ANC): Chairperson, as ANC we support this budget. As we seek to decisively build a national democratic society with sustained programmes of government, the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, is keen in delivering those programmes.

The character of the national democratic revolution, NDR, mainly seeks to abolish social conflicts against this backdrop towards building developmental state which seeks to build capacity with skilled public servants who are efficient and effective public centred people who are caring and patriotic. In order for DPSA to do that, seeks to promote ethical behaviour of the public servant, has put programmes in place.

I am surprised then when the hon member is raising the issue of corruption. In the select committee, the programmes that are there in the Annual Performance Plan, APP were presented to us in this current budget we are planning now to approve and support, will deal decisively with the issue of corruption and discipline within the public servant. The issue of the Information Technology, IT, system that will be there will easily track and clean up the persal system of the department. Training programmes are ongoing in building skills and the capacity of the public servants. We want also to be seen as a first choice of employer in government, so that if one seeks employment, you choose government. This is what we want to build as a developmental state.

Since then, we are able to see that and build this developmental state. We do understand that we have challenges currently, but as ANC government we have programmes and plans in place. We are not here in the House with electioneering statements of misleading the public. When we move out here, our public will have been assured that, the public servants that we want to build are caring and patriotic. As ANC, we support the budget.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Note the DA‘s objection.

Vote 10 agreed to.

Vote No 11 - Public Works - put

Declarations of vote:

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, asset management has always been a headache for the department and there are still severe shortfalls within this programme and the system. If the property‘s global positioning system, GPS, description is not in the middle of the sea, as many as 12 00 properties are allegedly untraceable and cannot be linked to the global information system for lack of cadastral information. Rectifying this will take ages.

Maintenance of the properties is behind schedule due to poor management losing its value for properties rather than to gain value when they are maintained. Asset management is the foremost portfolio in the department and it must manage the land and immovable assets in a profitable manner. This department is the custodian of all state properties which has enormous responsibilities and accountability.

According to a question reply in Parliament, the department acknowledged that 1 289 properties were occupied unlawfully, which raises concerns on the ability to manage the properties effectively. In KwaZulu-Natal, there are 539 illegal occupations and in Gauteng,

139 . At the bottom of the list, we have Limpopo and Free State with

32 and 26 , respectively. Well, maybe the managing is better in the Free State.

It is clear that the state‘s properties are not under proper management and control. When we get to the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, we are absolutely convinced that there is no control and that the several departments working with the Department of Public Works are abusing the funds given to them to create jobs and to transfer skills.

It is our job to see that public funds are being spent for the purpose they are granted. Programmes where job opportunities are offered transparently and on a fair basis and where one‘s political association is not used to punish the person where the skills are transferred. We believe that the goals of the programme, as intended, should be accomplished. We do that in the Western Cape and we do it very effectively. You can argue the point if you want to.

If it works so well in the Western Cape, why can it not happen in the other eight provinces?

We have proposed an amendment to the Appropriation Bills to increase the appropriation for Vote No 11 of Public Works by R1,2 billion to provide approximately a 180 more work opportunities in the 2016-17 financial year, but this was rejected by the ANC. The fact that the unemployment rate in the Western Cape is only 19% in relation to the 26% average in the country and the only 12% in the DA-led Midvaal Local Municipality shows that proper management can turn declining economies around. Where we govern as the DA, we open opportunities for a dignified life of pride and access to a vibrant economy.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon House Chairperson, I think we must start by clarifying our differences that the Department of Public Works is on record on several occasions, declaring here in this House that the asset register stands at 99,5% towards conclusion. Nobody has disputed that fact. In fact, we have on several occasions applauded the department on such good work. This we all know that the asset register will be able to enable the department to run an efficient department of asset property management in a manner that is going to be able to make sure that properties are not rented out by the departments when the Department of Public Works is there.

Issues of maintenance are top on the agenda of the Budget Vote as presented in this House and this we should be able to applaud. We are beginning to see state properties - influx of apartments of this particular state, renting of apartments from the Department of Public Works that are run professionally - that are having all what is needed by the department. We think that we are moving in the right direction.

Expanded Public Works Programme is a programme that our dear friends, who are sitting in this House, started rejecting. When the programme started creating jobs, they started appreciating it and claim it as their own. We want to remind them ... [Interjections.]

... We want to remind them that when we established EPWP, they turned it down just like they are rejecting the Budget Vote that we want support today.

You can‘t talk about skills transfer when you are a party that does not want to appreciate affirmative action as a necessity to skills transfer and that does not want to deal with all other issues that ensure that skills are imparted to the people. They are now standing up today and saying that they are proposing an additional

R1,2 billion to the same department that they started by saying it is not functional. You want to throw money into a department that is not doing its work? What is that? We want to stand up here and agree that as the ANC, we think that this department has moved from the stability phase - we are now in a process where the department is running efficiently. We think that we must agree as the ANC that the department is in the right path. We support that. Thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chair, the IFP wishes to say the following in respect of the Department of Public Works. Firstly, there is seemingly no transformation in the entities of Public Works. The Council for the Built Environment, CBE, and Construction Industry Development Programme, CIDP, have continued to underrate construction companies that belong to the previously disadvantaged. These companies are still rate only as grade one and grade two. This disadvantages those companies because they can only be offered to do small projects by government because all the big projects are done by other companies which do not belong to the previously disadvantaged people.

Secondly, is the EPWP, which has continued to be used for political point scoring, down there. The people who are employed in these programmes have produce membership cards of certain political parties. If you belong to that political party, you get employed and if you do not belong to that political party, you do not get employed. Hon House Chairperson, that is a fact.

For as long as EPWP is used as a political tool, it is not benefiting the people of South Africa, but only benefiting people of a particular political party. [Interjections.] Chairperson, can I be protected?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order, members!

Mr M KHAWULA: Honestly, the Department of Public Works has failed South Africa with the issue of the asset register. It is still in shambles. It is one thing reporting it here as being work in progress but it is something else out there. This asset register is still in shambles. Lastly, Public Works in the provinces is failing government. It is failing the provinces to an extent that some of the departments have decided to establish their own construction units in their own departments because Public Works is failing them. So, Public Works, has to be sorted out. I thank you.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order, I rise in terms of Rule 66(a), again. Hon Khawula has voted in favour of this vote. [Interjections.] Well, of course, its okay. Well, with that declaration if he is in favour of it, I am not going to object.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

that is not a point of order. Okay, let me get your point of order.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Michalakis is not the IFP Whip here. If there is anything that you would like to whip, you must whip the DA and not the IFP.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

NOES - 10: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Mpambo- Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 – Women in the Presidency – put.

Declarations of vote:

MS B ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, thank you. With 8,9 million unemployed, and thousands of women living in extreme poverty, this government should be ashamed that more than R8,6 million has been spent on luxury vehicles for the wives of President Zuma over the past four financial years. This include - you will be shocked - four Range Rovers, two Land Rover Discoveries, two Audi Q7 and three Audi A6 Sedan; just these were R634 000 each. How can this government justify spending millions of rand on vehicles for only four women, when so many South African women live without water and basic necessities. [Interjections.]

The DA supports the mandate - can I have protection Mr Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

members, hon Dlamini, hon members, let us not drown hon Engelbrecht. Continue hon Engelbrecht.

MS B ENGELBRECHT: Thank you, Mr Chair. The DA supports the mandate. I need to make it clear, the DA supports the mandate of the

Department of Women in the Presidency in securing women‘s rights, gender equality and the development of women and socioeconomic opportunities; but we cannot support the budget that will not allocate resources effectively.

This department has an operating budget of R127 million, which sounds good, but 70% of this budget is spent on administration costs. Given the dire state of the economy, the high state of unemployment and the devastating increase in food prices, the DA feels that the budget should be used more effectively to expand grassroots programmes to vulnerable women.

South African women deserve a better deal than the ANC is prepared to give them. The budget must be utilised to improve the lives of thousands of gogos, abused women and raped young women. Our women deserve a budget to improve their quality of lives and protect their rights, not budget that mainly goes towards administration costs.

This is not what we as women deserve, and the DA will not support this budget. [Applause.]

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Thank you, hon Chair. Let me clarify the role of the Department of Women in the Presidency, as a champion of advancement of women‘s socioeconomic empowerment and the promotion of gender equalities through mainstreaming, advocacy and monitoring; and particularly the implementation of policies. Those policies,

which are driven by the ANC, the Employment Equity, Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Acts.

As we accelerate and ensuring that the employment equity has been implemented, the DA has rejected the Act of Equal Pay and Equal Work, which has been adopted. The Employment Equity Act and the Equal Pay for Equal Work of Equal Value seeks to address and ensure that the poorest of the poor women, the farmworkers and the retailers are the one who, most of the time are disadvantaged. Those in the constructions and mine sectors are the people whom this Equal Pay for Equal Work of Equal Value Act need to address.

The DA has rejected that Act and the policy. I just want to show and expose the DA for what they are as an organisation. As the ANC, we are leading in addressing the gender equality.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Manopole, can you take your seat, hon Julius why are you standing?

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, just on a point of order, the hon Chief Whip who is supposed to whip us, is actually walking right there and the person is talking right in front of her eyes there, Chairperson; breaking the rules that the Chief Whip is supposed to protect. Can you rule on that, Chair?

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Thank you Chair, this Employment Equity, the Equal Pay ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Manopole, hon Manopole!

AN HON MEMBER: Sit down, sit, dula fatshe.

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Where is the fifth wife?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Chief Whip, let me address it, hon Julius you are correct, hon members can‘t just pass here. So I sustain your point of order. Hon Manopole, conclude, sorry hon Manopole, sorry hon Manopole!

Ms G M MANOPOLE: As the ANC, as we seek to address ... [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, just on the point of clarity, I would like to know if the hon member perhaps got a Land rover as a present because she is a great defender ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

hon Faber, that is not a point of order.

Ms G M MANOPOLE: As the ANC, we seek to address the discrimination between men and women, the Equal Pay for Equal Work of Equal Value Act seeks to address that. The ANC is leading by ensuring that we do that within our structures, and we are saying to other organisation, they should follow suite to ensure that the 50:50 is being addressed.

The work of the department is not always to ensure that the employer addresses this. They ensure that there is mainstreaming, advocacy and monitoring of the policies of government, to empower women. The small businesswomen and the department have to ensure that there are Co-ops of women. As we know that Co-ops of women are supported by the Department of Small Business Development. The women bands are ensured.

The DA does not really understand the work and the role of the Department of Women in the Presidency, which is mainstreaming, advocacy and monitoring. As the ANC, we support the Department of Women in the Presidency to be able to continue in ensuring that the policies of government are implemented; and that they challenge the private sector to address the socioeconomic issues of women, to empower women and move South Africa forward. As the ANC, we support this budget Chair. [Applause.]

Vote 14 - Basic Education

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, the release of the investigation into allegations of the selling of posts of educators by members of teachers unions, specifically SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, better known as the so-called jobs for cash investigation gave a glimpse to the extent of the South African education crisis.

AN HON MEMBER: Selling posts.

Mr C HATTINGH: A finding in the report blatantly states that the

―Department of Education is effectively in control of one-third of South Africa‘s provinces‖ in education:

That where education officials work strictly according to regulated procedures and where their managerial and administrative staff members are persistent and consistent in carrying out their duties in accordance with a coherent system, teachers unions are held in check and procedures and decisions are led by the department.

Now this is applicable to the Western Cape, Northern Cape and the Free State.

Where authority is weak, insufficient and dilatory, Teacher unions

– that is Sadtu – move into the available spaces and determine policies, priorities and appointments achieving undue influence

over matters which primarily should have been the responsibility of the Department.

Now, the reality is that the Minister and the department should take responsibility for the capture of the education system in six provinces by Sadtu. The reality is that the department and the Minister are only in control of one-third of the provinces and yet the Minister comes here and wants 100% of the budget. The budget does not address a turnaround plan to reclaim the six provincial education departments captured by Sadtu. The DA does not support the acceptance of this budget.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, at the gala dinner of Africa Day yesterday the President actually made mention of the fact that African countries should keep focussed on investing in education and skills development with a view to attaining the Sustainable Development Goals of the United Nations, UN, but also move faster towards addressing the issues relating to poverty, unemployment and disease. In keeping with that spirit, the South African government, led by the ANC, has put education as an apex priority of government and to that extent the major chunk of the budget of the country goes to education.

We are passing the budget with a view to charging education, basic education, to go out and deliver quality education. [Interjections.] How are we going to go about doing that? And let me just inform the

people of South Africa that we are sitting here passing the budget of the Department of Education and the DA is opposed to anything that the Department of Education is going to go out and do for South Africans.

One, we want to use the budget to capacitate the teachers, the school management teams to do better management of schools with a view to improving the quality of education that we dispense, with a view to improving dispensing the curriculum, that is what we want to use the budget for. We want to use the budget to ensure that we give better training and develop teachers that are responsible for teaching mathematics, science and technology and all related subjects and ...

... i-DA ithi, inkomo ingazala umuntu, ngeke kwenzeke lokho. [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.] [... the DA says, that will happen over their dead bodies, nothing of the sort will ever happen. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]]

We are here passing a budget where we want to go and deliver schools, build new schools, eradicate mud structures, deliver a school per week as we are doing in the Eastern Cape. [Ubuwelewele.] [Interjections.]

I-DA yona ithi, ilanga lingawa lichoshwe izinkukhu, ngeke kwenzeke lokho. [Ubuwelewele.] [The DA says, that will be the day, it will never happen. [Interjections.]]

We want to go out and ensure that we deliver the learner-teacher support material in schools where there are shortages with a view of ensuring that teachers have got material and learners have got material. [Interjections.]

I-DA yona ithi, lingawa licoshwe izinkukhu, ungabona amehlo esibungu, ngeke kwenzeke lokho. [Ubuwelewele.]

ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Mangethe! [Zwane] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[But the DA says, that will be the day, it will not happen, that will never happen. [Interjections.]

The HON MEMBER: Mangethe! (The clan name of the Zwanes)]

Ms L L ZWANE: We want to go and ensure that those learners that do not have scholar transport have scholar transport, they don‘t walk long distances to schools and they don‘t get tired.

I-DA ithi, niyobona amehlo esibungu, ngeke kwenzeke lokho. [The DA says, that will be the day, it will never happen.]

We want to go out and ensure that in all the schools there is nutrition, there is nutrition: ...

... izingane zomuntu omnyama ziyadla aziyi esikoleni zilambe kuze kushone ilanga zingadlile. I-DA ithi ngeke nikubone lokho. Sifuna ukuhambisela izingane ezikhubazekile izinsiza zokufunda ezikhethekile ... [special material] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[... black people‘s children eat, they do not go to school hungry for the whole day. But the DA says, that will never happen. We want to deliver special educational facilities for children living with disabilities ...]

... for learners with disability like Braille and other special equipment.

I-DA ithi, hlalani ninjalo, akudokwe eligayelwe thina lelo. [The DA says, you will remain as you are, that has got nothing to do with us.]

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Zwane is misleading this House, hon Zwane was with me on oversight at Fundokuhle in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, where the infrastructure is at its lowest degree. She knows exactly at Fundokuhle what we saw

there. The infrastructure is in an appalling state yet she is misleading the House and telling lies here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Hon, take your seat

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Tell no lies hon and claim no easy victory. Fundokuhle in KZN, where the principal is Mchunu, the vice- principal is Mcunu, the Chairperson and the governing body Mchunu, everything is appalling there.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Manopole! Hon Manopole! Hon Mpambo! Hon Mpambo! Hon Mpambo! Hon Mpambo! Hon Mpambo, can you take your seat.

AN HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.] ... no rules.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): You

know that is not a point of order, you can‘t respond, you had an opportunity to do a declaration as the DA. Let us come to the ... your time has expired hon Zwane.

Mnu M KHAWULA: Angithokoze Sihlalo, nakuba iqembu leNkatha Yenkululeko [IFP] lisisekela isabiwomali soMnyango Wemfundo Yamabanga Aphansi kodwa sikwenza lokho sithi uMnyango awuqaphele ulungise lezi zinto ezilandelayo. Okokuqala, imfundo yethu -

yezingane zethu, ayikakabi sezingeni lokuthi sithi iyafana kuzo zonke izindawo. Labo abadla izambane likapondo basakwazi ukuthi bahambise izingane zabo ezikoleni zezinga eliphezulu bese kuthi abantu abantulayo ezabo izingane zifunde kulezi zikole ezibulawayo.

Sifuna ngokuqala ngokusho siyiqembu leNkatha ukuthi siyabonga kuNgqongqoshe ngokuthi wasungula ikhomishana le ebeyiphenya ngomkhonyovu wokudayisa ngezikhala zothisa ngoba iqembu leNkatha elikade libelesele ngokuthi kunomkhuba owenzekayo la awuphenywe. Siyakubonga ukuthi uNgqongqoshe ube nesibindi sokukwenza lokho nokuthi akhulule umbiko kodwa isibindi esesisidinga kuyena manje ukuthi akathathele izinyathelo bonke laba abakhonjwa umbiko ngenjumbane ukuthi bayathinteka ekudayisweni kwezikhala zokufundisa ezikoleni

Enye into esiyishoyo ukuthi ukuphathwa kwemfundo lapho la elimala khona ezikoleni ilapho la kufakwe khona o-comrade abangafakwa ngokuthi banamakhono kodwa bafakwa ngokuthi bazana nobani, bakhokhele bani ngoba ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M KHAWULA: Let me thank you, Chairperson, although the IFP supports the Budget Vote of the Department of Basic Education but we are doing that with the following concerns which we want it to take note of and correct. Firstly, our education, our children‘s education is not yet on the level where we can say that it is the

same in all the areas. The rich people are able to take their children to the best schools whereas poor people‘s children attend these schools that are on the verge of collapsing.

As the IFP, we want to start by thanking the Minister for establishing the commission that was investigating the jobs-for-cash scandal as it is the IFP that insisted that this scandal be investigated. We are grateful that the Minister was courageous in releasing the report but the courage that we need from her now is for her to take punitive steps for those who are implicated by this report of jobs-for-cash in schools.

The other thing that we are saying is that the collapsing of education in schools is experienced where there is cadre deployment who are not placed in schools because they qualify or have the skills but because of their connections, whom they have paid because

... ]

... it is not about being rural and urban.

Lapha KwaZulu-Natal zikhona izikole ezisemalokishini, zikhona izikole ezisemakhaya ezenza kahle kodwa bayaqhubeka abazali bayise izingane zabo ezindaweni ezikude bezibeka ezingozini zithuthwa omalume ngezigadla ngenxa yokuthi balandela imfundo esezingeni elingcono. Manje indaba yokuthi imfundo ilawulwa kanjani izofanela

umnyango uyisukumele ukuze kuphuculwe izinga lemfundo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[There are schools in the townships and in the rural arears that are doing well here in KwaZulu-Natal but parents continue to take their children to faraway places, putting them in danger by being transported by uncles in bakkies just because they are after a better education. Now the fact of the matter is that how education is managed needs to be looked into by the department so that the standard of education could be uplifted.]

Lastly, what I want to say is, centralising procurement of Learner Teacher Support Material, LTSM, has subjected the department to unprecedented levels of corruption because what is happening is those schools which are forced to order centrally they get materials which are not enough and they complain that in addition to what they have ordered they still have to pay and order more because these tenders are given to friends who do not deliver everything that is required by the school and schools have to suffer by ordering more of what was not delivered by people who are not competent enough to deliver materials.

Akulungiswe emfundweni, kuyafuneka futhi okokugcina ukuba izikole ziphuculwe zibe zezingeni elifanele ukuze abazali bangazitholi bethatha izingane zabo bezisa ezikoleni ezikude ngenxa yokuthi izinsiza kulezi zikole eziseduze nabo azikho ezingeni elifanele.

Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekile. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Finally, issues must be sorted out in education, it is also necessary that schools should be upgraded to reach an acceptable standard so that parents do not find themselves taking their children to faraway places just because the facilities are not up to the acceptable standard in the nearby schools.]

VOTING:

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

NOES - 9: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 15 – Higher Education –put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, before I start, I can only wonder if some of the members are also paid to be here. The government repeatedly congratulated itself with the growing numbers of university students which have increased with more than 150% during the past two decades from 400 000 to more than 1 million. However, the government remains silent on the significant decrease in real funding of the universities for enrolment of students from 20 000 per year down to

15 000 per year. This happened gradually over the years.

The majority of 600 000 new students who are entering the system come from poor backgrounds. This indicates a need for funding in a declining economy but the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NFSAS, is unable to live up to the task to support them. We have proposed an amendment to the Appropriations Bill to increase the Appropriation of Higher Education by R2,73 billion. Now, that‘s lot money – a whole lot of Nkandlas put together – to provide more support for poor students in 2016 and 2017.

The Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, institutions where the personnel are now also employed by the Department of Higher Education are institutional failures of endemic proportions.

At present, despite a massive investment in those institutions and the students, it can only reach a 12% through put figure, I mean 12%. One in every eight students actually succeeds. If any private tertiary institution had acquired the same results, it could have been closed down by the same department. The DA unequivocally rejects this budget.

Mr D STOCK: Chairperson, in line with the ANC‘s resolution of the 53rd National Conference in Mangaung, it is through that resolution that today education at tertiary institution level can cover for accommodation, tuition and books for the students. Now, there is one thing which keeps coming from the opposition, they are obsessed with the SA Democratic Teacher‘s Union, Sadtu. They always mention this and that about the organisation when it relates to the education system, whether it‘s basic or higher education.

We as the ANC, keeps making a point that education today is fashionable and it is actually free and compulsory because of the ANC-led government and its resolutions. Now, hon Hattingh comes here to mislead the House by saying that seven out of the eight provinces that are led by the ANC are actually being found guilty or implicated in the jobs for cash scandal. Now, I want to challenge him ... [Interjections.]

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Stock, can you take your seat?

Mnr C HATTINGH: Hy moet luister en hy moet leer! [He should listen and he will have to learn!]

Chair, we are busy with higher education. The hon member is now going back to the previous debate ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Hattingh, no! You can‘t do that! Can you take your seat! That is not a point of order! Continue hon Stock!

Mr D STOCK: What I want to clarify to the hon member, Mr Hattingh, on is that, he is misleading the House by giving incorrect figures. He must go back to the report that was released by the ministerial task that was established by the Minister to deal with and to investigate the jobs for cash issue. That report was released on Tuesday by Prof John Volmink, he must go and check that report and come here with correct figures. He must not come to mislead the House.

Chair, on behalf of the ANC we would also like to welcome the more than 7 billion that was allocated in this year‘s Budget Vote for Higher Education and Training, which will also improve and deal away with the issue of the deficit from the Fees must Fall Campaign. It

will also increase the number of students that are going to benefit from this initiative of making an education fashionable, by ensuring that young people of this country are actually benefitting from it.

It is therefore wrong for the DA to come here and reject such an important initiation from the ANC, which will actually make sure that young people that are studying at tertiary level get access to education. The ANC supports the budget. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Are there

any objections to the approval of Budget Vote No 15 - Higher Education by the Parliament? Those in favour say aye.

Hon MEMBERS: Aye!

The CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Those

against say no.

Hon MEMBERS: No!

AYES - 28: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 10: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo- Sibhukwana,T G; ; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, can we not take a comfort break for

10 or 15 minutes and then we come back thereafter? We have been busy for two and a half hours and we have another two and a half hours going, we‘re sort of being in the middle.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, we

can do that! But first, let‘s consider Vote No 16.

Vote No 16 — Health — put.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: We want to make a declaration.

Declaration of vote:

Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Mhlalingaphambili, singumbutho we-DA sikholelwa kwinto yokuba impilo yomntwana waseMzantsi Afrika inakekelwe ibe yimpilo eyiyo ukuze akwazi ukuqhuba kakuhle esikolweni. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, as the DA we believe that the health of a South African child needs to be taken care of

so that she or he can lead a healthy life and progress properly at school.]

Hon Chairperson, the Health budget should respond and comply with the health needs of our citizens who are plagued with the burden of diseases. In this programme, R740 million was added to strengthen the tuberculosis programme; R1 billion was set aside for antiretroviral treatment; and R4,5 billion was set aside for revitalising health facilities. For the Northern Cape, Free State, Western Cape and North West, more funds were set aside for the new substance abuse treatment centres and for us that is the right way to go. We do support the budget.

Siyaluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali ... [We support this Budget Vote

...]

... as it is rational. However, we would like the Minister to focus on the following. This is imperative to bring good life to each and every South African family. For the past three years there has been no hot water in Mangaung clinics and hospitals.

An HON MEMBER: Is it?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Clinics and hospitals are desperately understaffed. This is a cause for concern to an extent that we are losing some of the other nurses to Dubai and Saudi Arabia.

The medical waste systems in the Free State, Gauteng and Limpopo are dysfunctional. This is based on a visit two weeks back to these institutions. In the Free State and KwaZulu-Natal, the state‘s life support medical equipment has not been serviced for the past two years. You go to Khayelitsha and see the best equipment that makes people come over to the Western Cape for better health services.

Andile Makwetu should be investigated by the Auditor-General and this should include medical waste governance in the provincial status.

The National Health Insurance, NHI, is also a cause for concern. It is unaffordable and does not deal with the real problems of health sufficiently. On behalf of the DA, we do support this budget.

Siyaluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kuba sikholelwa kwinto yokuba isizwe esisiso sesiphilileyo, esinamayeza neepilisi zokunyanga abantu abagulayo. Enkosi. [We support this Budget Vote, because we believe that the real nation is the one that is alive; the one that has medicine and tablets to cure sick people. Thank you.]

Vote No 16 agreed to.

Vote No 17 — Social Development — put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Mhlalingaphambili, okokuqala singumbutho we-DA asiluxhasi olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kuba sikholelwa kwinto yokuba izibonelelo zakwarhulumente ziluncedo kuba zibalekisa inxele likakhetsekile kumakhaya ngamakhaya eMzantsi Afrika. Uqoqosho lweli lunyuka yonke imihla - lunyukile izolo, luyanyuka namhlanje kwaye liza kunyuka nangomso - kwaye nexabiso lesonka nalo ngokunjalo linyukile. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, firstly as the DA we do not support this Budget Vote, but we believe that the government services are helpful because they chase away poverty from many homes in South Africa. The economy of this country grows every day - it grew yesterday, it is growing today and will continue to grow tomorrow - and the price of bread goes up too.]

The DA has proposed R2,2 billion to social grants so that 17 million beneficiaries in South Africa are able to feed their families. The ANC simply said no to this. With almost nine million unemployed people in South Africa who do not have ... who are benefiting 100% from these social grants ... and the ANC simply says no to the increase that we as the DA feel ... that R350 is not enough and the R1 500 is not enough. It is very scary. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: You must read your news.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Many are dependent on family members who receive these grants. These vulnerable people are clearly not prioritised by the ANC government. The ever increasing food prices, a struggling economy coupled with the drought ... you remember ...

... imbalela iye yazibhuqela ... [... the drought wreaked havoc ...]

... you can imagine that it has hit our provinces and our people very hard.

We had made further proposed amendments to the Appropriation Bill with regard to this, to be able to address the current crisis that we are in. Sadly this has fallen on the deaf ears of the ANC. The DA puts social grant beneficiaries first, not the party first. The money should be directed in the right place. How sad of the ANC to be so short sighted, economy rises every day. Due to these reasons, the DA cannot support this budget.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. I‘ve never seen a confused party like the DA. They are talking only about increments

... the ANC did not consider. The ANC is supporting all the budgets that are given to people who are benefiting from social services.

The DA, by saying no to this budget ...

... abangatholi lutho labantwana abangenabazali abayizintandane abangadli, abahambe baye esitiladini bayohlala khona, bahlukunyezwe

ngabantu ngoba uMnyango awunganikwa imali. Yilokho abakushoyo - uMnyango awunganikwa ngisho isenti. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[... these children who have no parents must not receive anything - orphans should not eat, they must go to the streets and live there and be abused by perverts because the department should not receive funding. That is what they are saying - the department should not be allocated even a cent.]

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, hon Dlamini must not mislead South Africa. We said the budget should be increased ... [Interjections.] ... by R2,2 billion. That‘s what we said. Increase R350 to more money and R1 500 to more money so that they can ... [Inaudible.] ... the economy.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

no, no, hon Mpambo. Hon Mpambo, can you take your seat? Order members! Allow me to make a ruling. I don‘t need your assistance. I know how to deal with it. [Interjections.]

Hon Mpambo, let me address you. This is a final warning for what you are doing. It‘s not the first time. You stand up and debate while you have an opportunity to make a declaration. I‘ve warned you to refrain from debating because you had an opportunity to make a declaration. It‘s the last warning to stand up and respond to

members. Continue hon Dlamini. [Interjections.] No, there was hon Mohapi before I can deal with you. There was hon Mohapi. I wanted to make a ruling first.

Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, you‘ve made a ruling. I just want to make a humble plea. Let us not be excited. We are dealing with bread and butter issues that affect poor people out there. You have made a ruling and hon Mpambo continuously overlooks you ruling. It‘s unacceptable.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

I‘ve made a ruling about that one. Hon Londt?

Mr J J LONDT: Chairperson, I just want clarity with regard to the warning that you just gave. Does it apply to everybody in the House or only to the one member?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘m

addressing a ... I‘m addressing ... [Interjections.] Hon members, I don‘t need your assistance. He‘s asking a simple question. Let me address you, hon Londt. It specifically referred to hon Mpambo- Sibhukwana. She‘s the only one who has done it; no other member has done it. [Interjections.] Hon Van Lingen?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, in terms of what I want to ask you, I‘m not sure whether it must be privileged or whether it must

be for clarity; however, what hon Dlamini has just said is not the truth with regard to the DA‘s policy, so must I ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No

hon Van Lingen ...

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: No, no, wait. Do you want us to bring a substantive motion to object to that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Yes.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: So you want us to bring a substantive motion?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Yes. I‘m happy you have even considered it.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Alright, so you are saying we must now look at the Hansard ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

I‘m happy you have concluded very correctly that if you are challenging it you can bring a substantive motion. Hon Labuschagne?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, when we make a declaration in the House in this process it‘s not part of the voting. It‘s a speech being

made in the House. There is no rule in this book that says that no one can rise on a point of order ... [Interjections.] ... on a speech. In fact, we can rise on a point of order even during a division on Rule 67, points of order during division.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order members!

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: So if we can rise on a point of order during a division, what is a declaration other than a three minute speech, and if we cannot rise on a point of order in a three minute speech, then ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No Chair, with all due respect, what is a declaration? There are no points of order on a declaration which says that you cannot rise on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Labuschagne, your point of order in this case is irrelevant. I never said there is no point of order. I said what is wrong is for an hon member ... when hon Labuschagne is on the floor making a declaration it will be wrong for any member to rise and say, a point a order and challenge and debate with you. That‘s my ruling; not that there‘s no point of order. If it‘s a point of order it should be a point of

order and not a debate. You can‘t use a point of order to challenge a member in debate. That‘s what I said. Hon Dlamini, can you continue.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thanks very much. The DA, by rejecting the budget is saying that all the pensioners, especially those who are staying in old age homes because they use that money, must be thrown out because they will not be getting their pensions. They are also saying that all those people who are benefitting from home-based care should not receive stipends.

The ANC is a caring organisation. We support this budget because to this end the department and its partners have made significant strides in improving the quality of its services to the public. This includes laudable progress that has been made on broadening access to social assistance; early childhood development services; victim empowerment; food security which the DA is saying people must not get and all the persons with disabilities. That is what they are saying. Those people who cannot assist themselves, the DA is saying they must not get anything this year. [Interjections.]

In order to continue its services to the most marginalised people of this country, the budget allocated to ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Sorry, hon Dlamini. Hon Engelbrecht?

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, thank you. The hon member is misleading this House. The DA was the only party that asked for social grants to be increased ... [Interjections.] ... and the ANC rejected it. So the ANC does not want ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Engelbrecht, let me address you. Can you take your seat? Not so long ago I addressed the very same thing that you are doing which was done by hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana; that parties have an opportunity to make declarations. It doesn‘t necessarily mean that if you are making a declaration and any other member is opposing you ... it will be wrong for any member to disturb you. You must be allowed to make your declaration. If it‘s a point of order it will be a point of order. What you are raising now is not a point of order. Continue hon Dlamini. [Interjections.] Sorry, hon Dlamini.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: A point of order in terms of Rule 46. Is it parliamentary for the member to deliberately make a statement in this Council which the member knows is false?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

It‘s not, but to be able to prove it that is why you need to have a substantive motion to make us come to that determination. [Interjections.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: So every time in this Council when we are going to stand up on Rule 46(b) when members are deliberately making false statements we have to put it in a substantive motion? Is that what you are saying? Is that your rule? Do I have this correct?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Yes.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: So every time that the ANC says that anyone ... and us make ... do something ... [Inaudible.] ... they must bring a substantive motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

its not ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you. We will put that in writing. We will do so.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

its ... [Interjections.] ... order members! [Interjections.] The rules are not applicable ... Let me be very clear. The rules are not applicable to one party. They are applicable to all members of the National Council of Provinces. Even if they are going to violate your rule, for any other member the rules apply. Hon Dlamini? [Interjections.]

Ms L C DLAMINI: Chair, finally, the DA is saying if there are disasters, where there is a need for intervention by government, those people should not be assisted and we do understand because bona [they] are well-off, they can cater for themselves.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: For the second time around the same member is contravening rule 46(b). She is bringing a statement to the council which she knows it is false.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi):

Order members! Order! ... [Interjections.] .. No, I am not entertaining any point of order. Let us go to the voting part or sorry hon ...

Ms L C DLAMINI: Is my time finished?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi):

Yes, your time is finished. [Interjections.]

Ms L C DLAMINI: He ene [no] ... [Akuzwakali.] [Inaudible.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I am going to be very brief. I want to say social protection is a very necessary intervention but even yesterday at the National Assembly, NA, during the question time, a question was asked by hon Liezl van der Merwe, the Whip of the IFP, to the hon Deputy President, about how the social relief of South

Africa is monitored and the Deputy President made a commitment that government is going to monitor that it does not get politicised because as the IFP, what we are saying is, the plight of the people should not be misused for political gain.

Social relief, whilst welcomed, but when politicians begin to pick and choose as to how social relief is going to be utilised so that some people gain political ground, then it is wrong because hunger knows no boundaries. The plight of our people on the ground knows no boundaries and therefore social protection programmes must be meant for the plight of the people and not to score political points. I am going to expand on this when I talk on my declaration on the appropriation bill itself. Thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote 18 – Correctional Services

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, we declare and support.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Declare and support? Okay let us do the declarations.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, correctional services is one of the most important parts of the justice system. Since it deals with

the rehabilitation of criminals to a point where they can be reintegrated into society and be given a second chance to become ideal South Africans. It is an ideal far removed from the apartheid style of dealing with persons who are convicted and it is an ideal to which every decent democracy would aspire to. However, we are still far from realising this ideal and 22 years into democracy it is worrying that this has not yet been achieved.

Overcrowding of prisons and corruption within the department is a great source of concern. The department continues to underspend its capital budget and yet there is no real increase in the number of beds whilst officials and inmates have not received decent uniforms in some areas for almost a decade and staff members are in certain instances even forced to buy their own stationery. The biggest concern is still the great lack of sufficient resources given to the programmes that are aimed at rehabilitation and social reintegration of offenders and ex-offenders which should be the ultimate aim of this department. We again support this budget but only hesitantly in the hope that we will see some improvement in these areas. However, if underspending and corruption is not curbed substantially in this financial year, we will be left wih no other choice in the future but to reject the budget of this department as a means to express our dissatisfaction with the manner in which it has been run up to now. Thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the concerns raised by the IFP on this department are the following; that the department has continued to reflect lack of capacity internally, this has been shown by the department continuing to spend millions of rand on consultants but the biggest concern is that having spent millions on consultants there are no skills transfer that are left with the personnel of the department therefore this becomes a recurring decimal especially on the Information Technology, IT, which is the integral part of modernisation. It has to happen but there is no skills transfer and the department continues to keep on spending.

And again the other concern is this recent scandal of the IT tender of R378 million which the department wrongly awarded, irregularly awarded, where there were false declarations to a company that had no capacity, to a company that was fraught with fronting until the Department of Finance had to intervene and instruct the department to reverse that tender. We are also concerned about the fraudulent appointments in the department and we are also concerned about the Human Resources, HR, backlog in the department and lastly, the poor HR management in the department. Thank you very much Chairperson.

Mr M T MHLANGA: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC we support this appropriation bill due to that this budget addresses our Mangaung resolution. The following aspects are covered as per our mandate by this budget; economic development; disaster risk management; infrastructure; agriculture and food security; natural

resources; meteorology and climate; health; social and human development; poverty eradication and policy dialogue. As the ANC, the above reflect to the call made by the South African Constitution, the Bill of Rights.

The three of the four public security objectives in the Strategic Indicative for the Organ on Politic, Defence and Security Co- operation are aimed at prisoner, prison and correctional service. The first objective is to promote public safety and security by dealing with prison overcrowding. Two, to promote regional co- ordination, to deal with transfer states prisoner between states, three, is aimed at build peacekeeping capacity in prison officers.

The ANC supports this budget and we will like to inform our people that they should not listen to the opposition parties who are discombobulated, who do not support this appropriation bill. [Interjections.] It is precisely that they do not care about our offenders as humans who have rights to live.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mhlanga! Hon Mhlanga sorry take your seat. Hon Essack, why are you standing?

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, on a point of order: With due respect to the House, with your authority, could you ask the member just to

repeat discombobulated please? [Laughter.] Because honestly I am totally ... but I don‘t know what he is saying.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

That is not a point of order. Continue, take your seat, continue hon Mhlanga.

Mr M T MHLANGA: It is precisely that that they do not care ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order members! Hon Mhlanga! Hon Mhlanga, sorry, hon Essack, that was not a point of order. Hon Khawula, why are you standing?

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to find out if we have another hon Pakkies in the House. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

That is not a point of order, continue hon Mhlanga.

Mr M T MHLANGA: ... about our offenders as human beings who have rights to live and our people must know that the opposition parties do not support all the budgets, it means that they do not want service delivery to happen. The society should know ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mhlanga, no, hon Van Lingen take your seat.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

I am dealing, I am taking hon Smit.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, I have a point of order. The hon member is very clearly misleading the House and the public by saying the opposition is opposing all of the budgets because that is not true, yes.

AN HON MEMBER: We are supporting ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

hon members, order. Let me sustain the point of order. Hon Smit is correct, the recent one, Vote 14, when we were dealing with Vote – we have got a number of votes where the opposition had no need to even bring in a substantive motion – your point of order is correct, continue hon Mhlanga. [Interjections.]

Mr M T MHLANGA: ... Chair, they want to make sure that this glorious movement do not deliver to our people as committed. As the ANC we support this ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mhlanga!

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, on a point of order: You have now clearly ruled against the hon member. May I ask that you request him to withdraw his false statement please?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

order, let me assist. If hon Mhlanga referred to the DA, you have to withdraw that part but if he referred to the opposition, but you can‘t refer to the DA, withdraw that part. Can you withdraw that part?

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, no, I said opposition parties Chair, not the DA. Opposition parties in this process, not the DA. I hope the Hansard will assist you, I said opposition parties

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Opposition parties?

Mr M T MHLANGA: Yes, who are discombobulated.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Okay.

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, as ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mhlanga, sorry.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, on a point of order: I appeal to you to be fair in this regard. Even if the hon member said instead of the DA the opposition, he is still incorrect in that the opposition does not vote against every single; if he had listened during my declaration he would have known that we support this Budget Vote of the Correctional Services. Even if he said the opposition as a whole, he is being unfair towards the opposition and similarly he is misleading the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mhlanga, withdraw that part.

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, I will withdraw but I will insist to say most of the budgets are being rejected. The ANC supports this budget.

Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 19 - Defence and Military Veterans - put

Declarations of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, the Minister of Defence has admitted herself that with this budget being what it is, we will be

shutting down the SA National Defence Force sooner than she expected, and that is soon.

Our ocean economy is being exploited by Chinese ships without us having sufficient patrol power. Our army is under-resourced and our Air Force has become nothing other than a flight club, despite the excellent education of many soldiers, all of these whilst Very Very Important Person, VVIP, aircraft at a cost of billions of rends to the taxpayer are being bought to transport the President. And if this is not enough, instead of building up flight hours for the training of pilots, flight hours are being spent to illegally smuggle friends of the Minister into the country with false documents and then she has the audacity to call former pilot of the National Defence Force criminals in this House. This is ironic. I wonder who the criminal is.

The Defence Review is an excellent model, but will remain only an ideal under the Minister and with this budget as it currently stand

...

AN HON MEMBER: And the Guptas.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Michalakis, sorry! Let me address ... Hon Chief Whip, why are you standing?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, criminals in this House, is it parliamentary?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Michalakis!

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, if I may address you on that point of order, I did not refer to a specific ...

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon

Michalakis, did you refer to members of the House as criminals?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: No, hon House Chairperson.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Are you

happy if you can repeat that part so that we can get it correct.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Very well. Hon House Chairperson, I said that then the Minister ... Well ... And she ... Yes the ... No ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order members!

Mr G MICHALAKIS: ... give me a chance

AN HON MEMBER: Listening is a skill.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Perhaps hon House Chairperson, if the ANC would listen for once, they wouldn‘t need to get up on points of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Order members! Hon Michalakis, sorry! [Interjections.] Hon members, let us not drown him. I want to make a ruling. I have requested him to assist and repeat that part. Continue hon Michalakis.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, I said that and if it‘s not enough instead of building up flight hours for the training of pilots, flight hour are being spent to illegally smuggle friends of the Minister into the country with false documents and then she has the audacity to call former pilot of the SA Air Force criminals in this House. She did that. And she did not ask to be pardon. She falsely accused former SAA Air Force members of being criminals and stealing aircraft.

AN HON MEMBER: Listening is a skill.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: I continued House Chairperson, by saying this is ironic.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Michalakis, sorry! Can you take your seat? Hon Chief Whip!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, if it is a quotation, the other day one member in this House said we must not plagiarise. So, if it is a quotation, let it be acknowledged as such. If it is not a quotation, then it refers to this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

Oder! Order, members! [Interjections.] No. [Interjections.] Can you take your seat? Let me make a ruling. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Can

you take your seat, hon Julius? [Interjections.] What you read, you were referring to the Minister referring to former pilot of SAA, SA Airways. Yes. So, you can continue hon Michalakis.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Hatting!

Mr C HATTING: Hon Chair, you have castigated my friend for standing up and making a debate. Why didn‘t you do same with the Chief Whip? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

the ... Order, members! [Interjections.] Hon Hatting, hon Chief Whip raise a point of order. That‘s why I even requested hon Michalakis

to repeat. And after he repeated - that‘s why I am making a ruling that he is not out of order; let him continue with his speech. [Interjections.] Can you take your seat? [Interjections.]

Mr C HATTING: Hon Chairperson, it wasn‘t a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

That‘s why I am saying hon Michalakis is in order. Continue hon Michalakis.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, perhaps the Chief Whip should for a while pack her points of order. Our country deserves to be protected. And we owe the service men and women who put their lives at risk for our country‘s safety, the honour of a decent budget and a Minister worthy of this dignify position. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr E M MLAMBO: Hon Chair, the people of our country voted in 1994 for the people‘s government, led by the ANC. And one of the things that they voted for is to be safe. So, the Constitution of the Republic also gave the mandate to the SA National Fefence Force to make sure that our skys, oceans, land and other important installations that are of value are guarded and protected together with our people.

The budget of this department has been shrinking year by year. But we as the ANC, we salute the Department of Defence and Military Veterans that they are able to do more with less under this trying times.

The issue that is being raised by hon Michalakis of the VVIP is an issue that he knows; he wrote a letter requesting a meeting about the issue of the VVIP flight. And that he knows very well that it can only be debated or discussed in a committee meeting, not in an open because is a very sensitive matter. If you understand the Defence Force, you will know that how ... [interjections.] Just keep quiet, you will learn. [Interjections.] You will learn with time that Defence Force is not just like any other ordinary department where you do your neely wily kind of things. You must be vetted at a certain point, especially those who ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mlambo, can you take your seat? Hon Smit, why are you standing?

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, I want clarity on two points that are point of order. Firstly, whether it is acceptable for the hon member to address other member directly instead of through the House? And then secondly, whether it is parliamentary for the hon member to scratch his leg inside of his pocket while he is talking to us?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Mlambo, let me make a ruling. The first one, it‘s not parliamentary for any member to address another member direct. You have to do it via the presiding officer. On the second one, I am not sure what you are referring to. So, I won‘t be able to make a ruling. Can you continue hon Mlambo. [Interjections.]

Mr E M MLAMBO: At least you know and I am proud about that. Let me salute the men and women who are deployed out of the country ... [Applause.] ... who are doing a very wonderful job in making sure that they try to bring peace in the continent and in the world. And our people should know that the DA is of this world are against those men and women who are out of the country doing a wonderful job. And patriotism goes along way. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, let me start by acknowledging the improvement in the record keeping of the Department of Military Veterans, which has improved on its financial recordings from what it was last time when we met on the budget. [Applause.] That is welcome.

The issues pertaining to integration still remain hanging, hon Chairperson. They have not been resolved. But I want to refer to the integration of the mid 90s that it seems to be disadvantaging some of the members who came from other quotas because of this one predicament. These members have force numbers which can be traceable

back to their origins and now it makes it easy for them to be suppressed when it comes to the issues of promotions. And that has to be attended.

I am saying Chairperson, the force numbers that were given to some members with the 90s integration is a problem because they are traceable to their origins and these numbers are used to suppressed their promotions.

Chairperson, the issue of the department pension into priorities, you know their priories is very wrong. You cannot say South Africa must have Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, because people don‘t have jobs, because people are poor. You have National School Nutrition Programme, NSNP, in schools because children are hungry, people are poor. You have child support grant because people are not working, people are poor. But at the very same time, you go and budget to buy an executive jet for one person. It is priorities very wrong, hon Chairperson. [Interjections.]

The other concern we have is pertaining to the transfer of skills. The country has spend billions of rends purchasing infrastructure, which unfortunately when it has to be maintained, consultants have to come from very far outside the country to just come and do maintenance and on that maintenance there is also no skills transfer. So, we continue the billions of rends we paid purchasing. We continue again, on millions mounting to billions now on the

issues of maintenance because there was no proper plan for maintenance. Thank you, Chairperson.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put and agreed to.

Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

Mr S J MOHAI: I am ashamed to say that they object this vote, we didn‘t hear them.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, that is not a point of order. They have noted the objection of the DA and there is a call for a declaration and a division. That is why there were standing so that I can satisfy myself whether the meet the threshold.

Declarations of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House, Chairperson, yet another ANC member who should start listening. This budget is barely enough to support the administration of Justice in South Africa. Over the past two years the National Prosecuting Authority has struggled to fulfil its duties properly last year and the year before when it received the larger increase in budget and it does in this year‘s budget. This will put extra strain on the NPA to fulfil its duties properly; duties that are vital to the service of justice in our country.

The DA proposed that the office of the Public Protector be funded in full by reprioritising funds in this existing budget. The ANC voted no, but of course they would. Of course they would vote no for more money being given to the Public Protector, and of course they would vote no for more being allocated towards the eradication of corruption.

The lack of proper funding to the Public Protector has the effect that many of ordinary South Africans have complaints that are not being addressed properly. Unfortunately the budget is being used to point a finger at her office with accusation that it is not doing its job. The DA is of the opinion that our constitutional order requires a strong and properly resourced Public Protector. And therefore we cannot support this budget. Thank you.

Ms T WANA: Chairperson, good afternoon to everybody. I am standing here on behalf of the ANC. It is clear that today the remnants of the apartheid system are raising their ugly heads. The apartheid system never accommodated the constitution of the ANC. This developmental constitution was done because our forefathers use to change their names because of the oppression they suffered under the masters of colonialism.

Secondly, today justice is transforming because we are very proud as ANC to stand here saying, we have got female judges. During apartheid ... It‘s a pity ...

... wathi uMadiba abeLungu ngekhe bavume ukuba sibaphathe kangangokuba bajika naba bethu abantu, babenze abeLungu. [... Madiba said that whites would never allow us to govern them and as a result they even turned our own people, and made them white.]

So, we are not dealing with an issue...

... apha kodwa ndiyayithanda i-ANC kuba ... [... here, but I love the ANC because ...]

... it created the word, ‗majority‘. Even if they don‘t want anything ... They will never accept anything because they want our parents to be slaves. This month is an African month because the whites used to make slaves out of blacks. We will not allow that. That is why as the ANC we support this budget. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 27: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 10: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo- Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 22 – Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration

– put and agreed to.

Declarations of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, this year we celebrate 20 years of our democratic Constitution, something you should read, a milestone which we as a nation can forever be proud of. It is this Constitution and the interpretation thereof by the Constitutional Court that remain a beaming light of hope even in our darkest hours. It is this that ensures that no matter who is in control of the executive arm of the state, justice will always reign supreme as long as the rule of law is respected and our democracy is based on sound values, social justice and human rights; an open society where we are all equal before the law. Of course, this means that the judiciary often has to make decisions against the other branches of state as it often has to its own credit.

However, this might in future pose a risk to other arms of state and they might use the dependence of the judiciary on the state for a budget allocation to intimidate or to unlawfully influence the judiciary. This would not be surprising considering the ANC‘s self contradiction, saying that it respects the judiciary only to turn around and do the contrary.

Fortunately the second budget of the Chief Justice as a budget allocation on its own seems not to have fallen into this trap just

yet. And we therefore support this budget whilst encouraging the judiciary to continue to develop our constitutional order in the interest of all South Africans. I thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Two things, hon Chairperson. One, the IFP would like to salute the retired Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke for the sterling job that he has done representing South Africa. We say to you, Sir, wherever you are, well done. You have done great for South Africa. Secondly, we would also like to thank all the chief justices of our country at the Constitutional Court for a good job. It is our wish that this could also spill over to all the courts in South Africa because we still need them to improve here and there. But we do want to say to the chief justices of our country and our Constitutional Court, bravo! Thank you.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: House Chair, as the ANC we support Budget Vote 122 of the office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration. This office is cornerstone of the administration of justice and of ensuring proper administration of justice for our people. This office is new and became fully operational in April 2015. One of its key mandates is to implement and monitor judicial norms and standard for effective case flow management. The office of the Chief Justice serves as the important instrument for the enforcement of national and provincial efficiency in the administration of justice.

This office also serves as a very important instrument for the appointment and training of judicial officers. As the ANC we support this Budget Vote because we believe that it is very a important mechanism for assisting our national effort to provide effective judicial support and administration of justice in our courts.

We also wanted to say, we are today because when we look at the justice system we see the work of the movement. Thank you.

Vote No 23 – Police – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, this will be the last time I promise. The DA, knowing that the safety of our communities is of paramount importance, made the suggestion that an extra amount of R500 million needs to be allocated for the establishment of a critically needed unity specialising in fighting gang and drug-related crime. This proposal was rejected by the ANC who clearly do not prioritise the eradication of drug and gang-related violence as high as the DA does.

Instead they opted for a budget that will see a 14% increase in the allocation of the VIP protection service that will benefit not you the people of this country but the elite politician. Much has been said about the serious lack of basic resources for our SA Police Service members on the ground in helping them to ensure our

community‘s safety and in light of this, the budget tabled here does not resemble what the SAPS budget would look like under a DA-led government. We would put the people and their safety first and the politicians last.

The budget serves to help the current Minister to continue with his duties as a witch hunter and protector extraordinaire of the interests of President Zuma to the detriment of ordinary South Africans and their safety. I thank you.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I concur with other speakers that the DA doesn‘t like any development in this country. The police that we have today are far better than those we had before 1994 ... [Applause.] ... during the time of the Nationalist Party and DP which formed the current DA. So, the police we have today are far better than those of that time.

Let me assure you that we are not going backward but we are going forward. We cannot be garden boys and kitchen girls again. We are going forward. Let me remind the hon member that the UN Office on Drugs and Crime states that good policing requires public co- operation. Yet only if people trust the police and regard them as legitimate are they willing to assist them and comply with their instructions enabling the police to succeed in all their co-function of maintaining public protection, detecting crime and enhancing accountability and integrity in whatever duties they are doing.

Therefore appropriate police action involves finding a balance between serving the state, the public and police professionalism. We support this budget. The NDP which was voted by all of us ... [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I just wanted to know whether you are still checking the time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Definitely, it is here. He is now left with 26 seconds. I am checking it.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, the NDP which was voted for by all of us speaks to ensuring this balance. It states that by 2030 all people in South Africa should feel save and not fear crime. On provincial level ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 10: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: House Chairperson, listen very carefully. This department is not taking the risk of food security seriously. It‘s either they are still disillusioned or refuse to acknowledge the impact of the drought of this past year. This will have unprecedented impact on food prices that will hurt the poorest of the poor most. It has already and still will lead to serious job losses within the industry and beyond, as farmers cannot survive on their own without government support.

We know South Africa may need ... [Interjections.]

Mr E M MLAMBO: Chairperson, the point of order I am rising on is: The hon member is part and parcel of our select committee. He is misleading the House and the public. He can‘t say that the department has not ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, that is not a point of order, hon Mlambo. Hon Smith, continue.

Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, the hon member is also disillusioned with what is going on in the House, it seems.

We know South Africa may need to import about 6 million tons of grain in order to meet the food requirements of the population. A total of R305 million has been made available for drought relief by the Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries. However, this is a drop in the ocean to what is required. Request for emergency funding in the amount of R4,2 billion for the emergency drought relief have already been received by the department, and they are not reacting to that.

The department proposed an amendment to the Appropriation Bill to increase the ... Sorry, the DA proposed an amendment to the Appropriation Bill to increase the appropriation on agriculture, forestry and fisheries by R2,73 billion to provide drought relief to drought stricken communities in 2016-17 financial year. This proposal was met with and ANC who are more concerned with the elections than they are with ensuring that our people are provided with services.

Fisheries is still in a state of disarray and the Chinese are looting our already truncated fish stocks. The budget is shrinking

and the ANC-led government does not take agriculture seriously. The DA strongly opposes this job-destructive and antipoor budget. I thank you.

Mr M RAYI: House Chair, as the ANC we are not surprised that the DA is objecting on Budget Vote No 24; actually their objection is not only to this particular Vote, the common trend is that they always object everything from those departments that are transforming because they are anti-transformation. Whether you talk about employment equity or black economic empowerment, they always object. If you record all their objections, they are mainly in those departments that are transforming. [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I will take a different trend now, and not say that the hon member is misleading the House. But can you ask him to bring proof from our policies of what he is saying, because he is lying. He doesn‘t know what he is talking about. You can‘t come here and speak, just like that. That is why you make the mistake. You must go read and write. You can‘t come here with something you wrote on a toilet paper and read it as a declaration.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat, hon Nthebe, so that I can make a ruling. Hon Julius, you know very well, that is why you never referred to any rule but said you are coming from another angle. So, that is not a point of order.

Mr M RAYI: I want to repeat, Chair. This is an anti-transformation party. There is proof to that effect. They objected to the employment equity; they don‘t support black economic empowerment. That is a fact. [Interjections.] If you look at the departments on which they are objecting, all of them have got to do with transformation. So, they don‘t like transformation. That is why they are objecting.

We say thanks to the ANC because black people are no longer just slaves and farmworkers, but they also own farms. [Applause.] In support to black farmers, in particular, the ANC has introduced projects such as Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, Casp, Ilima-letsema and the Landcare. This kind of support is to ensure that black people do not just remain slaves but also become farm owners and not just farmworkers.

We also support what the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is coming up with - the 50/50 policies that - because that will also ensure that more black people become farm owner instead of just being farmworker or slaves.

The primary mandate of the Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries – the three sectors in this particular department are those that were dominated ... [Interjections.]

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, I just want the point of clarity whether the hon member knows that we are busy with Vote No 24 and not Vote No 39 on the Order Paper. Secondly, I also want to know if the hon member knows that just today in the NA, Members of Parliament have approved that the drought be declared a national disaster ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Smit, that is not a point of order. Hon Smit, that is not a point of order. Continue, hon member, as you conclude.

Mr M RAYI: Chair, you know some of these initiatives by the national government – you talking of Casp, Landcare and Ilima-Letsema – in the Western Cape they benefit only 1% of the black people. You know the reason why they have always been pestering the government to declare drought ... [Time expired.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES – 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote 25 – Economic Development – put.

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, African National Congress and Inkatha Freedom Party

Declarations of vote:

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: We object and want to declare. Hon Chairperson, this department is mere post box and should not exist at all. In the DA‘s plan for 15 Ministries, this one should be recategorised under Trade and Industry. The so-called function that the department is responsible for unblocking critical issues in the President‘s infrastructure development plan in terms of the Strategic Intergrated Projects, SIP, Programme is a joke. Although the Infrastructure Development Act 23 of 2104 is covering the functions of this department, the department only provides the secretariat for the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC. The function is to report to the PICC on a quarterly basis and nobody

else has access to these documents. Perhaps the executive has access to such reports but Parliament does not see what the department is doing. There is no scope for oversight on this secretariat.

Therefore, there is no transparency and we here in the NCOP cannot see what the department in our provinces. Well, it just proves the point that they don‘t care. We have 8,9 million people unemployed IN South Africa and jobs are lost daily. Every year, many young people drop out of school and others finish school and then there are some finishing at tertiary education that also joins the job market. More and more young people cannot find the job. At the rate they are laughing, it is actually a disgrace how they are laughing at unemployment. The latest unemployment figures are absolutely shocking. In the deep rural areas of the Eastern Cape it is as high as 50%. The department is not creating jobs it is bragging about.

These jobs are created in other departments but the department quotes the same figures as those departments do and thereby misleading the country. For the work done by this department, it is clear that the existence of the department cannot be justified and the DA cannot support this Budget.

Mr B G NTHEBE: No, Chair, lets take our learned friends back. In 1996 during the adoption of the now celebrated Constitution, this was rejected by the DA by the way and specifically rejecting clause

25 and the labour relations part of the Constitution. Part of what we wanted to address at that time was that the country moving into democracy was sitting at 42% of the Gross Domestic Product, GDP, of

indebtedness. In order for us to be able to move forward, we understood that we needed to create sound economic growth in this country. This is what this department is doing. We needed to create a conducive environment for investment in this country. We needed to stimulate growth in this country. We needed infrastructural development in this country. One thing ... and that‘s why hon Rayi was correct. When you want to reject this Bill, you don‘t say it here but we know that they don‘t support the black industrialist programme. We know, that‘s why they are here rejecting this Budget. We know that they don‘t support market penetration that we are beginning to address for our own people. We know that when we talk about intra-African trade penetration, yet yesterday they were dressed in African attire and celebrating Africa Day. When we say lets make sure that Africa becomes the biggest competitive market in the world to be able to reach the level that we want it to be, so that we stock the 83% of the AU market hegemony in this country.

They don‘t want to agree with us. Chair, we are here to say this department is doing wonders and want to support it. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I

now put Vote 26. Any objection? No.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: 26. We have just done Economic Develpment. Could you give me the scores on Economic Development?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

There was no division called.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: So, you are quite happy that ... the fact that we opposed it we don‘t have to count votes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Van Lingen, we do the counting when we are dealing with a division. You never called for a division.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: No, I didn‘t call for a division. How many voted against this?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): We

never voted. We only vote when there is a division.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: We objected to this ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Yes, that it is why I said we are noting the objection of the DA. I said that. We note the objection. I now put Vote 26.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote 26 - Energy - put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: The department of Energy is responsible for energy security in South Africa and it is failing dismally.

Minister, Tina Joemat-Pettersson, is not considering or executing her many responsibilities in an open and transparent manner as required by our Constitution in terms of section 217(1) which says,

―when an organ of state contracts for goods or services, it must do so in accordance with the system that is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive and cost-effective.‖ The market pressure for requests for proposals on the nuclear procurement programme is building up. The deadline was 1 April but I have to quote my colleague hon Gordon Mackay for the NA where he warned the Minister, and I quote, ―as regards to the Minister‘s statutory obligations, the Electricity Regulation Act is unambiguous when it states that the decision to procure nuclear and the nuclear procurement system must be taken prior to the commencement of nuclear procurement.‖ She furthermore, this is now the Minister, select to submit specific international agreements to avoid Parliament‘s approval by submitting it in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution where parliamentary approval is required. She is only notifying Parliament in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of the Russian and the other international government agreements. How can we trust such a Minister? The Minister must stop stalling legal processes and submit her final arguments to court and wait for a court ruling. Not that the ANC really listens to that. The department is responsible for National Energy Regulations of South Africa, Nersa, and the

appropriate regulations. Nersa has to publish the small-scale embedded generation, SSEG, regulations by May 2015 and they haven‘t done so. Nersa is now waiting for the Department of Energy to publish licensing regulations. Why is the department not publishing the policy framework so that the Nersa regulatory Rules can be published for SSEG. The Minister ignored the urgent request made in my budget speech where I requested a bid window for low voltage connections and not medium voltage connections as she implied in her speech. Small-scale producers and entrepreneurs ... [Time expired.]

Mr B G NTHEBE: Once again just as in the Constitution, the DA is selectively selecting what the NDP says. The NDP speaks about the energy mix. In the energy mix, you talk about all aspects of energy generations including the ones that they want to reject now. You talk about energy security today that our people never had in the past. You talk about inclusi ... that‘s why hon Van Lingen would stand up and talk about being competitive and they deliberately leave the word inclusive because they don‘t want our people to enter the same market that they dominate. [Applause.] In the Northern Cape, if you can go today, there is a booming of green energy produced and led by policies of this government. They come here today and don‘t talk about that. You go to Northern Cape today, you don‘t even have to be a rocket scientist, and you can see the booming of green energy. And we are saying today in South Africa, in an hour, 73 households are getting connected to the grid and this is the achievement of this country. We are saying our people must have

energy security, empowered and we will not be held ransom by people who don‘t want to see and wants to choose to pick and choose a developmental programme of our country being the NDP.

Mr M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ... [Thank you, hon Chairperson ...]

Hon Chairperson, the nuclear energy for South Africa is a non- starter. It‘s high time that government goes back to the drawing board and rethink this. It is a pity that several figures in government have had to be sacrificed just for this. It has to stop hon Chairperson. Firstly, the former Minister of Finance, my homeboy, hon Nene and later on, all these shenanigans that I have been speaking about behind the current Minister of Finance, hon Pravin Gordhan. Now, the question is, like I said in the past, how many will have to fall before government realises that this thing is a non-starter because all these Ministers have said South Africa does not have money to fund the nuclear deal.

Secondly, is the issue of load-shedding, load-shifting and so on and so forth. It‘s a good thing that we have moved away from load- shedding, we are now in load shifting. But there is another theory, South African companies have scaled down on production and therefore, its not that there is no need for load-shedding anymore. We have scaled down on production which is affecting jobs. People

are losing jobs because companies have scaled down on production. It is affecting the country.

Lastly, price increases affect the poor more. Therefore, whenever there is price increases on energy, government must first think of those who will be affected more – the poor. Because it affects every other aspect of life like food, transport etc. So, price increases must be properly monitored. Thank you, Chair.

Division demanded.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Business of the house suspended at 17:56 and resumed at 18:17.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: On a point of clarity and privilege, or whatever you want to call it. We‘ve now gone through the Rules book and the only thing about the substantive motion in the Rules book is 47.2. It talks about the removal of a judge. So, if you imply that we must remove hon Dlamini like we do with a judge, then we can do so. But nowhere else is there a provision in the Rules. There is no substantive motion anywhere in the Rules book.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Thank you. No - order, members. No, hon Dlamini, hon Van Lingen was just making an example. She was not referring to you, specifically. In addressing your clarity-seeking question, hon van Lingen - you know that there is a committee that is dealing with the Rules. There is no speaker now who was on the floor and you were not raising a point of order, you were seeking clarity. I am clarifying you as a presiding officer now that there is nothing wrong for anything that is in line with the Rules in that committee to be discussed so that there is proper understanding and interpretation. I now ...

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Then, on a point of order - how can you rule that we must bring a substantive motion to this House when you know it is not in the Rules and you want to refer it to the Rules Committee?

So, please explain. The members that have made those statements should actually withdraw the statements because they have misled the House. That‘s the point.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Okay, let me assist you again, hon Van Lingen. If a member is making serious allegations that someone is presenting a false statement to the House, there is precedence. There is a ruling that was made in the House on the basis of ... that is why we said that in terms of the Rules, if you want to prove that, you have to make it in a form of a substantive motion. I am even now getting worried because we are discussing the Rules when we are supposed to deal with what is in front of us in the Order Paper. [Interjections.]

Okay. Order, members! The last part, hon Van Lingen - I am appealing not only to hon Van Lingen but to any other hon member in this august House that if ever there is anything in relation to the Rules or a particular ruling, to follow the procedure, to subject it to the necessary process so that it can be attended accordingly.

Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting.)

Vote No 28 – Labour – put

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr J J LONDT: Hon House Chairperson, we are in the midst of an extremely difficult period in our country‘s young democracy, with an economy that is simply isn‘t moving forward to be able to help

address the increasing unemployment; 8,9 million people, families, dreams that are struggling to be realised because this department is not doing its work. Under the watch of Minister Oliphant, red tape reduction was not seen as a priority. Red tape is continuing to prevent the necessary job creation that businesses need in order to first define that traction and then get the momentum in order to address the crippling unemployment.

It is part of this department‘s responsibility to help create an enabling environment for job creation and protect those who are in the labour sector. This department has failed to do so. It has failed to protect the most vulnerable of South Africans. We can therefore not support the budget.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

NOES - 10: Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo- Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 29 – Mineral Resources – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon House Chairperson, we are losing jobs in mining since 1994. Since the first quarter of this year we have lost

10 000 mining jobs which implicates about another 1 000 South Africans who will no longer have a breadwinner. The ANC‘s answer to this is a simple one – low commodity prices and other countries are doing worse. We ask why is it that Australia is attracting 38% of all new mining investment and we, with richer minerals and resources, less than 5%. How does the ANC government handle the mining crisis? The Minister introduced a new version of the Mining Charter with more black economic empowerment, BEE, 49% stake instead of 26%.

The devastating effect of that to the mining industry will be damage controlled by the ANC according to them, through meeting on job losses but simultaneously the government shouted at mines not to cut jobs. How anyone can understand that, I don‘t know.

The fact that 80% of our platinum mines are losing money is an example for only one sector. The ANC government ignores the fact that all the big mining houses are leaving South Africa, this proves that the ANC only cares about the jobs of their own friends. We in the DA want the mining industry to provide jobs to you as citizens, foreign exchange to your benefit and fiscus with tax revenue to your benefit. Any money spent in this department, except that which is effectively spent on mine health and safety, is money contributing to destroy the mining industry which means that your opportunities as citizens are being destroyed. We will not support this budget.

Mr A S SINGH: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC supports Vote No 29 of the Department OF Mineral Resources. The mining industry is one of the valuable industries in this country, creating jobs for many South Africans and neighbouring countries. This department promotes and regulates the mineral and mining sectors for transformation, growth, development and ensure that all South Africans deserve sustainable benefits from the country‘s mineral wealth.

The mining sector has shown 71% increase in the number of mines since 2004 and 12% increase in employment over the same period. The mining sector is the key contributor to the South African economy because 500 million workers are employed directly and contribute to the South African economy.

The minerals and the values of energy is also used in manufacturing. It is also responsible for more than half of South African‘s earning from exports and it is critical to the ability of the economy to earn foreign exchange and reduce the trade deficit. The good stewardship of the Department of Mineral Resources or the mineral sector is of exceptional importance to the future of this country.

The Department of Mineral Resources has consistently managed its budget very well over the years and spent almost 100% of its budget. We in the ANC support the vote.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

AYES - 27: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 10: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Mpambo- Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 30 - Science and Technology – put and agreed to.

Vote No 31 - Small Business Development – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J J LONDT: Hon House Chair, in the Minister‘s own words, she acknowledged to the select committee that the budget of 4,3 billion is inadequate. Even with inadequate budget, the money allocated should be spent wisely in order to help drive the unemployment in this country down. The Department of Small Business Development can rightly be accused of not being proactive in fulfilling its mandate while South Africa is going backwards, economically. The DA will support all efforts and money spent on policies and programmes which deliver real measurable and positive returns.

Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa‘s, performance shows consistently and worryingly high levels of loan impairments, while its job creating impact is woefully short of what the economy needs to make any significant dent in the unemployment. Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, which consumes half of the department‘s budget is unable to report on the impact of its R500 billion expenditure. All it can report is how many businesses it supported in its various programmes.

The shortcomings of this budget include the inadequate provision for red tape reduction, the strategic review of the department released in November made this a top priority though to date the department has not recognised this and will be unable with the resources budgeted to have a meaningful impact on the red tape reduction where it matters most, at a local level. This department has not yet demonstrated that they are serious about spending their money wisely in order to get real returns and help to address the need of

8,9 million unemployment South Africans. Therefore, we cannot support this budget.

Mr E MAKUE: Hon House Chairperson, if one reads the latest copy of Sawubona, which is for]]free on SA Airways, SAA, you will see in that magazine how ordinary people have been interviewed by independent economists and they talk about how the Department of Small Business Development in this country has benefited them. It‘s important for those small businesses in the Western Cape to note what it is that the DA is doing when it says that it is not supporting this budget. They are basically saying that they don‘t want to give small businesses money. But we in the ANC will not that stop us from supporting all small businesses and co-operatives in this country because we are here as the ANC, the servant of the people.

If the people are struggling with their co-operatives and small businesses, we believe that this department is precisely there to

help them. Therefore, we have no hesitation to say that this department‘s Budget Vote must be supported at all costs. We know that we don‘t need sangomas to tell us ... [Interjections.] ... that all over the world, small businesses are a major contribution towards the creation of jobs because we are serious.

We are not going to throw in R8,9 million all the time, but we are going to do something substantive with the small amount of money that we are allocating to the Department of Small Business Development because we also know that this department is not working alone. It is working with the departments of Trade and Industry and Economic Development but very importantly, it is also working with two agencies, Seda and Sefa.

We are not only saying to small businesses, here is money that we are giving to you. We are saying to small businesses, through this budget, we are also prepared to help you so that you can have the capacity to be able to make your business a success. Therefore, we are humbled by the opportunity that we have as the ANC to be co- operating with small businesses and co-operatives in this country through the work that is being done by the department of small business development. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, after the great depression in Europe, it was the backyard industries that started to rebuild and uplift the economies of different countries in Europe, especially in

England. The Department of Small Business Development could have been able to do the same for South Africa if they were serious about what they are doing. So far, they have not yet started functioning. They have so far been a disappointment. They are no longer the new kid on the block. We cannot call them new anymore. The idea of co- operatives is a very good idea.

Economies like Malaysia have thrived on co-operatives. They started small but today in Malaysia co-operatives are very big. Countries like Canada have co-operatives, they started small but today they are very big. The idea of co-operatives but the issue with us is that it is an idea that is badly implemented. It is about high time that the department begin to implement the idea correctly.

Previously, as the IFP, we said that it was a mistake that the Trade and Industry, Small Business Development and Economic Development were divided into three different departments. They should have been one department so that we can be able to measure where we are going. So, this department must really pull up its socks. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M;

Modise T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 32 - Telecommunications and Postal Services – put.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, Vote No 32 - Telecommunications and Postal Services ...

Umnyango Wamaposi - Sihlalo, iqembu leNkatha liyaphikisana. Ngiyathokoza. [Telecommunications and Postal Services – Chairperson, the IFP, does not support the Budget Vote. Thank you.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chair, can I ask you to give to the ANC to start since they have reactionary things that they write on toilet papers. Let them start, please!

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Order

members! Hon Julius, please allow me to preside. As I‘m presiding,

the hon Labuschagne has called for a division, a declaration and an objection of the DA. When it was time to start the declarations, then hon Khawula decided to stand up. So, I gave him a chance to speak on a point of order, but he was registering an objection, of which is in order. Now, I‘m dealing with declarations as they have been called by the DA. So, let‘s have the declarations.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I‘m standing on a point of order. The list in front of you says that the ANC makes the first declaration.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

order members! It‘s very correct! I have the list in front of me. But the list in front of me it‘s not what we should be doing as the political parties. Since we have started, there are instances where you‘ve called out for a division when there was no division and you called out for an objection which was not happening. So, I‘m not relying on the list, but on what you‘re telling me. Are there no declarations? If not, we can go straight to divisions.

Mr J W W JULIUS: We have a declaration!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Okay, thank you!

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr J W W JULIUS: If the ANC doesn‘t have, we have one. Chairperson, I just want to stress the point that, you know the ANC is supporting all the budgets and they are defending all of them. There is no discretion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Members, order! I‘m sorry, hon Julius! Hon members, you can‘t drown him! Hauling is allowed, but don‘t drown him! Continue, hon member!

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, you know, the ANC is following like sheep. Just like yesterday, the ANC in this House, supported and clapped jubilated on a wrong ruling of 18 quorums, instead of 30 quorums. You should be ashamed of yourselves! You need do read and do research, that‘s why you‘ve been voted for by the people. You just sit here the whole night and steamrolling when the people‘s lives are at stake with these budgets.

This department failed to distinguish between funds for consultancy; other serves and programmes in its budget. Consultancy forms a large part of this budget. The use of consultancy is working against programmes for transformation. I think you must agree with me that skills development should be prioritised by this government. The job creation and Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, are hindered by the use of consultancy.

On the other hand, SA post Office, Sapo, is in serious financial difficulties because of this government. It cannot meet its obligations towards its creditors and it depends on government to help it deliver on its mandate. It must be noted that, there is no guarantee that the Post Office will be self-funded in the near future, and that is the reality they said. This is worsened by the fact that we didn‘t see a timeframe or a full recovery of the Sapo. We cannot support this budget, Chairperson, and I think that the ANC must agree!

Ms E PRINS: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services carries a huge responsibility in ensuring that South Africans have access to a fast, reliable and affordable internet access. This is a critical enabler of social economic development, as it is able to promote job creation and expand the Information and Communications Technology, ICT, Sector itself.

Eight of our municipalities stand to benefit from the SA Broadband for next project and the intension is to connect all the municipalities, help centres and schools so as to ensure that no South African is left behind by the accelerating global information aids.

As the country, we must also be on the alert regarding cyber security crime; as such risk may have a negative impact on investments. The national cyber security under the auspices of the

department brings relieve in ensuring that such risks are minimised. The budget for Telecommunications and Postal Services includes

R650 million capital injection for the post office.

The ANC welcomes this Budget Vote, as we believe that it will bring stability in the post office. However, I wish to urge the department to put in stricter internal controls in place so that there are dire consequences for fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The government cannot allow the post office to fail, as the private sector is incapable to fulfil this role. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, hayi kufushane njengoba besengishilo ngalena kwezokuxhumana ukuthi ukucozululwa kwalemnyango yenziwe izicucu ezimbili ezokuxhumana kanye nezokuxhumana ngocingo kuyiphutha ngenxa kwadinga kwabiwe amafa abelwa abathize kwacozululwa-ke. Uyabona lezi zinkinga lezi ezila kumnyango lo kaNgqongqoshe Wezamaposi yizinkinga ezidalwa ukuthi vele umnyango awukho, wathatha into engekho yenziwa into engathi ikhona.

Ziyophela lezi zinkinga mhla uMnyango Wezamaposi wahlanganiswa noMnyango Wezokuxhumana ukuze kukwazi ukuba umthamo obhekekile. Ngakho ke iqembu leNkatha namanje lisasho ukuthi, cha bandla sime eceleni la, sime le ngalena komugqa [touchline] - koze kube ukuthi lomnyango uhlanganiswe noMnyango Wezokuxhumana bese siqala

sikhuluma. Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, briefly, as I have already said when we were dealing with communications that turning these departments; communications and telecommunication into two small departments was a mistake because certain people had to inherit something which in the end led to the division of these departments. These are the problems that are experienced by this Minister of the Department of the Post and Telecommunications - what creates problems is that the department does not exist, they created something that was not there.

Problems will disappear once the Department of Posts and Telecommunication is merged with the Department of Communications so that there could be reasonable content to work with. Therefore, even today, the IFP still says, no good people; we are standing on the side here – we are standing beyond the touchline until this department is merged with the Department of Communications and that is when we will start talking. Thank you, Chairperson.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Those that are in favour of the Budget Vote No 32 - Telecommunications and Postal Services to be approved by the Parliament say aye!

Hon MEMBERS: Aye!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Those that are against say no!

Hon MEMBERS: No!

AYES - 28: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Makue, E R; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise T R; Mohai, S J; Mohapi, M J; Moshodi, M J; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa, J M; Ncitha, Z V; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

ABSTAIN - 1: Khawula M.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).

Vote No 33 - Tourism – put and agreed to.

Vote No 34 - Trade And Industry – put.

The objection of the DA noted.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J J LONDT (DA): Chair, in assessing the Department of Trade and Industry‘s budget, we need to have an honest and objective look at our country‘s position internal as well as in relation to our continental and international counterparts. Whilst there has been a range of excuses as to why our economic growth has been so weak, chief of which is the international economic climate, the facts are that in comparison to our continental partners, we are moving backwards – now occupying only the third position in the biggest economies. This is no one else‘s fault except that of this ANC-led government. Whilst South African counterparts have grown, we are moving backwards. This backward move has happened only under the leadership of the ANC. Little effort has been made in addressing the representivity of our economy, ensuring that the key role players in our economy are sufficiently transformed. Again, this ANC-led government has driven policies that only cater for their friends and families - the connected elite few - instead of allowing ordinary South Africans broad access to our economy. Our country currently has 8,9 million unemployed South Africans. This department has failed to help create an enabling environment to absorb more and more of our citizens into the job market. This department needs to do more as part of the economic cluster to aid and promote business. This budget shows no real changes from the previous failed budgets - budgets that have failed this economy, this country and the millions

of unemployed. We therefore cannot support a budget that fails ordinary South Africans.

Mr E MAKUE (ANC): Chairperson, it is important that we be honest with our people because if we are untruthful to them, the problem is that they will not trust us with their votes. Now, the truth of the matter is: What has happened just two days ago is that there was a R6 billion plus project that was launched by Toyota in KwaZulu- Natal. The media has covered that. We must be true to the people.

The second one is that last year or earlier this year, we have also had a long process of negotiations with BMW, where the BMX X3 will now be manufactured in Rosslyn in Pretoria, which is another

R6 billion endorsement. We have also had a big investment in an ice cream factory through Unilever. [Interjections.] Because we believe that this industry is not there only provide vehicles but we must also look those people who want to indulge in luxuries.

The incentives that have been provided to big business in this country by this Department of Trade and Industry are also looking at black industrialist. A huge amount has been put aside, not only to support black industrialists but also to make sure that black industrialists are appropriately trained. [Interjections.]

Now, when the DA interrupts me while I am talking, they need to take not that their candidate for the mayoral position in Johannesburg

benefitted from the progress that has been made to empower black people in this country through the efforts of the ANC. [Applause.] Before that, he was like many of us: Just a poor black person operating in the township of Soweto. Due to the ANC, he is now a people‘s person.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Makue, can you please take your seat. Let me entertain hon Julius. Hon Julius! Hon Makue, you are still left with 40 seconds; take your seat. Let me entertain hon Julius.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Again, Chairperson, like the one thing that happened earlier, we are sitting with the same thing now. Herman Mashaba, the future mayor of Joburg, was actually a businessman for many years! [Interjections.] You can‘t claim Herman Mashaba; you did nothing for him! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Julius, that is not a point of order. Can you conclude hon Makue. [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Why didn‘t you start a business? Who are you – room divider? [Laughter.]

Mr E MAKUE: There are great majority of people in this country who profess to be Christians. We are taught that the truth will set you

free. We are asking the DA to accept the offer that we are making, to still liberate them and their supporters in this country, and to come and join us by voting for our candidates who are standing for the ANC in the local government, with our proud history of economic growth and development, led by the National Development Programme. Thank you Chair. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Any

call for division?

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote 34 agreed to (with Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 35 - Transport – put.

Objection of the DA noted.

Declarations of vote:

Mr W F FABER (DA): Is the no declaration from that side? I just want to make sure, because hon Makue likes doing declarations, so ... [Interjections.] Taxpayers‘ money gets spent by the departments on previous years‘ failures without having fresh workable ideas. It is clear if we look at the following: Four of the 12 entities only financially survive without being bailed out from time to time.

The DA is not supporting this Budget Vote after considering the following: No entity presented their strategic and annual performance plans with regard to the fiscal constraints that we are entering. Wow! Seemingly, under the impression that Treasury will bail them out, the cost of employment in our public service nationwide is close to R500 billion, which is unsustainable.

The DA would rather replace the outdated programmes to just four: Administration, infrastructure, operations and regulations. These structures would be more streamlined and cost effective in our current economic situation that we find ourselves in. We can thus not support this budget.

Mr E MAKUE (ANC): Chairperson, the people using MyCiTi buses here in Cape Town are funded by the budget from the Department of Transport. The people using trains to earn an honest living for themselves are using – are supported – by the Department of Transport. [Applause.] In Gauteng, we have seen the tremendous progress and the convenience that has been created for people through initiatives like the Gautrain and through initiatives like Rea Vaya Bus Services. [Interjections.] He is not from Gauteng!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Makue1 Sorry, hon Makue! [Interjections.] No, hon Makue, you can‘t do that. Please take your seat. Let me entertain him. Hon Londt, why are you standing?

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chairperson, are we allowed to ask questions or not yet today?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,

you are not allowed!

Mr J J LONDT: Okay, thanks. I just wanted to check, and hon Makue, I had learned your manners. [Interjections.]

Mr E MAKUE: Those beautiful bus services that we have in George, which carries people from the racial spatial planning of the apartheid past, are funded by the Department of Transport. We are

mindful that if we want this economy to grow, it is important that we should have an efficient and an effective transport system.

When we looked at the budget of this department and their annual performance plan, that is what we saw. This department of Transport will move South Africa. It will move people in the Western Cape. It will even move people from other parts of the African continent because that is our plan that it must be an integrated approach that looks wholistically at how transportation can contribute towards the economic development that will create jobs for people in this country. I thank you Chair. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I don‘t think we are doing justice: People are not counting hands well. There were other hands that went up now. I saw it; I alerted you, but still it is 29. I don‘t know how they count. You must go and get your school fees back!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No!

Order members! Hon Julius, I am not even counting; I am just observing the process. We have got the Table Staff that are assisting, giving the results and I read the results. I don‘t know why you ... [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: But you must be sure who put up their hands! I saw other people not putting up their hands but they are counted. I don‘t know how they are counting. [Interjections.] Why are they counting? They can sit down!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):

Okay. Ja, can you please take your seat? Hon members, as a Presiding Officer, ... Hon Julius, I am addressing the point that you are raising because I don‘t want us to have problems with the numbers.

Let‘s revote!

Division for Vote 35 demanded again.

The Council divided.

NOES - 11: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote 35 agreed to (with Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: House Chairperson, the water crisis in South Africa reveals a lot about structural effects that are exposed by weather and poor maintenance of our dams. Our dams are as a result of a lack of rainfall at record, low levels combined with high temperatures and have a negative effect on our crops, livestock and essentially farmers‘ ability to participate in the economy which in turn helps with the employment and also being able to feed their families.

The Blue Drop Report of 2014 revealed that as a result of overgrown algae in dams, the quality of water provided is a cause for concern with regards to health standards. The Constitution guarantees the right to health and water, however, the fact that the department has not declared drought ... and I just heard only five minutes back it did declare it as a national disaster. Oh! It took long to get there

... as a national disaster reveals the government‘s seriousness when it comes to service delivery to our people.

It is therefore important to note that places like Kroonstad will have no water in about three weeks‘ time and yet no sustainable plans are in place to deal with this imminent crisis. The ramifications of our water crisis will be far worse than Eskom problems. Sanitary remains an issue we all have to be concerned about. Our Constitution provides for the right to human dignity yet ablution services have left communities undignified in Kapong in Orange Farm to an extent where residence refuse to register to vote which in turn is a systematic denial of their constitutional right to choose a government that will work for them.

Abantu bayikhalele i-ANC kuba bayayibona ayenzi nto kwaye bade bayeka nokubhalisela ukuvota. Abantu bayababona ukuba bangoohlohla ezabo bajonge bona kuphela. Ndiqinisekile ke kwela gama likaMphathiswa uNomvula Mokonyane ukuba amanzi awapheli kwidama likaNomvula Mokonyane ahlala egcwele kodwa bona abantu bakhamekile

... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[People have rejected the ANC because they see that it is doing nothing and they even stopped registering for voting. People see that they are corrupt and only look out for themselves. I am sure that what hon Minister Nomvula Mokonyane is saying that Nomvula Mokonyane‘s dam does not dry up and that it is always full, but people are thirsty ...]

... hulle wil hul dors les, en hulle kan nie water kry nie. [They want to quench their thirst, but they have no access to water.]

It is pathetic with this constitutional right to water. Thank you Chairperson.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Good evening House Chairperson. The Department of Water and Sanitation is the custodian of South Africa‘s water resources and it is responsible for the formulation and implementation of policies. It is also responsible for regulations in that sector. Water is life, sanitation is dignity. Prior to 1994 black people in this country‘s dignity was eroded and it was not respected. Black people had to fetch water very far from dams which didn‘t have clean water.

It is those that enjoyed certain privileges, who are making noise now. They made our people suffer and took their dignity away from them. From 1994 to date, the ANC-led government ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motlashuping, sorry, can you take your seat? Let me entertain hon Mpambo. Hon Mpambo- Sibhukwana, why are you standing?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: I am standing on a point of order House Chairperson; I just want to say that previously I did not enjoy any privileges.

An HON MEMBER: But you are supporting them now.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: I am telling you. I am a product of oppression, I have been there and I did not enjoy any privileges as assumed. You are misleading the House hon Motlashuping.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibukwana, I was listening very attentively, the hon ... [Interjections.] Order!

Members. [Interjections.] Can you take your seat?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Would you recognise me later?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I am making a ruling about the point of order raised by the hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana. I am saying, hon Motlashuping ... you can take your seat ... he never referred to you hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana. Can you take your seat? Hon van Lingen?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: I wanted to say that I have a freedom of association as my constitutional right and my freedom of choice and hon Motlashuping cannot interfere with that; it is my own constitutional right ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, everything that you are saying is correct and you are entitled to those rights, but you are debating and that is not correct. You have all that freedom that you are talking about and no person, not even an hon member, has a right to interfere with that. Hon van Lingen?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, is it parliamentary for hon Dlamini to say, hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana is sitting with her oppressors?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Hon ... [Interjections.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: She must withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Dlamini, hon Dlamini? [Interjections.] Order! Members. Can you take your seat so that I can deal with it? Hon Dlamini, did you say what hon van Lingen has said? [Interjections.] Can you withdraw if you have said what hon van Lingen said? Can you withdraw that part if you said it?

Ms L C DLAMINI: House Chairperson, can I be allowed to prove that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Come again?

Ms L C DLAMINI: Can I be allowed to substantiate why I say that?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: No, you said it‘s unparliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, can you take your seat and let me deal with it. [Interjections.] Order! Members. Hon Dlamini, I do not want the reasons; I wanted you to confirm and you are confirming by saying you want to give reasons. Can you withdraw that part? You know that it is not parliamentary. Withdraw that part.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Ee ... House Chair ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you withdraw that part? [Interjections.]

Ms L C DLAMINI: House Chair, the DA ... I will withdraw Chair, I will withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: No, House Chairperson, I am not saying I am withdrawing, I will withdraw. The DA is a combination of a National Party and Democratic Party and those are the oppressors.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Dlamini.

Ms L C DLAMINI: But I withdraw Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: But you got it; you got the message.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motlashuping, continue.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: To date since 1994 when the ANC took power, 80% of households have access to clean water. Thos who are opposing this budget are saying to fellow South Africans, you must still go and fetch water from the river, you must still go to far places, and you must not have your dignity. As you vote on 03 August fellow South Africans, reject anybody who does not want you to have a better life. [Applause.]

I was saying to one of the children from school that stopped me and said, ―Manier [Minister], don‘t you understand the rules?‖ I said

―No I understand rules of Parliament; I uphold and respect the rules of Parliament‖. And I asked, ―Why are you asking me this?‖ He said,

―I see people shouting rules, is it the rules that bring a better life and service delivery to the people?‖ I said, ―No, it is policies that are made by the ANC that bring a better life to our people.‖

The Department of Water and Sanitation has budgeted R500 000 to the drought stricken areas. Is that not a good story to tell? They want those people to remain with draught and not to be taken care of. But we must tell them today that we will meet on 03 August. South Africans are listening to them, they are rejecting a lot of budgets here and they must know ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motlashuping.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: ... that we are going to meet on the 3rd. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon Khawula.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, all the black townships inherited by the erstwhile KwaZulu government from the white government before 1994 had bucket systems in KwaZulu-Natal. Those townships were Kwamashu, Umlazi and Kwamakhutha. But before 1994, the government led by uMntwana wakwaPhind‘angene [hon Buthelezi] had eradicated all that system in Umlazi, Kwamashu and Kwamakhutha.

The new townships in KwaZulu-Natal established by the erstwhile KwaZulu government whose Prime Minister was Prince M Buthelezi, never had a bucket system. There is no bucket system in eSikhawini, Madadeni, Mandeni, Ulundi, Gamalakhe and the list goes on and on.

That is how uMtwana wakwaPhind‘angene [Hon Buthelezi] and the IFP respect the dignity of the people when they do establishments.

Secondly, recently the Department of Water and Sanitation appeared before the select committee and when we asked the CFO how they fund the water boards in the department, the response from the CFO was that the department does not fund the water boards. That is the capacity of the officials you have. Hon House Chairperson, water affairs is under spending when people do not have water. Water boards every year are under spending when people do not have water. I am saying the IFP respects the plight of the people; an IFP controlled district municipality will never under spend when people need water. Thank you.

Division demanded

The Council Divided.

Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Sefako, O J; Singh, A S; Stock, D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 10: Beyers Smith, C F; Engelbrecht, B; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J;; Mpambo- Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 38 – Human Settlements – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, ... [Interjections.] ... can I have your protection, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let us afford hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana to do the declaration.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you for affording my right Chairperson.

Hon Chairperson, it is a great concern that human settlement delivery support will fund involvement of consultants to the amount of R150 million owing to the medium term‘s part of the departmental National Upgrading Support Programme, NUSP. Shocked from the fact that these initiatives the Housing Development Agency, HDA, will provide the necessary support in identifying mining towns to the amount of R60 million over the period. It does raise a concern that this department has a staff of 893 positions of which 646 are funded, 605 of these are filed, 41 are vacant and 247 are unfunded. This presents a challenge to the department which will either need to meet a shortfall or it will have to implement more drastic measures in line with austerity measures announced by the Finance Minister in his 2016 budget speech.

Furthermore, backlogs in the housing sector are to an extent of 1,8 million units and this has been witnessed by the protests. One of the reasons for the inability of some voters to register for the 2016 municipal elections is the failure to provide formal residential addresses partially due to the lack of provision of formal housing by the state. The title deeds backlog is also estimated at 900 000 and 1,45 million. The goal of eradicating this is set for 2019. These backlogs relate to pre and post 1994 era.

Houses for which title deeds have not been used had been referred to as dead assets. Despite the fact that they have embarked on a title deed registration project, the cost of 27 000 issued by the

October 2015 is estimated at R1,4 billion. Funds will be sourced

from the Human Settlement Development Grant. Provincial implementation plans were being drafted towards the end of 2015 for the execution in provinces.

Finally, I would like to say this problem relates to the informal nature in which sales of Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses take place. We know the law and they know the law that you cannot sell an RDP house within eight years but, ironically it has been happening year after year and the Minister is quiet about it. I thank you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, ...

Ngiyacabanga kutsi bantfu balapha eNingizimu Afrika bayabona namuhla kutsi i-DA injani, futsi angati nekutsi kukhale nyonini ku-Da namuhla. Ecinisweni, lendlela lesihlaliswe ngayo isentele umusa ngoba namuhla babonakala kahle. Uma ungabuka ngala ngasesandleni sami sekudla ... (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[I think South Africans can see today how the DA is, and I don‘t even know what went wrong with the DA today. In fact, the sitting setup today makes it possible for us to see them clearly. If you can take a look on my right ...]

... you can see that what kind of an organisation it is. Out of 40 votes for the 40 departments, they rejected 33 of them.

Lokusho kutsi onkhe lamatiko lange-33 akavalwe angabi khona lokufaka ekhatsi Litiko Letekuhlaliswa Kwebantfu. Itsi i-DA asiyekele kwakhela bantfu bakitsi tindlu, kodvwa bayabasebentisa kutsi bayobavotela. Konkhe lapho bakhankhasa khona nasemibutsanweni yabo abayi bona, kugcwala labantfu bakitsi labahluphekako labadzinga letindlu. Nabafika lapha ePhalamende batsi akungakhiwa tindlu.

Bantfu bakitsi abangakhelwa tindlu. Tsine singuKhongolose sitsi kuletindlu leti ... (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[This means that all the 33 departments must be closed down, including the Department of Human Settlement. The DA is saying that we must stop building houses for our people but the very same DA wants our people‘s votes. In all the places where they campaign and in their gatherings, they do not attend, only our suffering black people who need houses do. When they come here in Parliament they say houses should not be built for our people. We, as the ANC, we are saying in these houses ...]

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I do not know if its just an interpretation but what I hear this member is saying in Afrikaans which is my language – ...

Ms L C DLAMINI: I‘m not this member. I‘m hon Dlamini.

Mr W F FABER: ... may be I am wrong, but, I need to get this very clear. It is said that the DA says that we must not build houses for

the poor. That is definitely misleading the House and it is a blatant lie. [Interjections.] As we have shown in the Western Cape province where the DA rules that we have the best record on building houses for the poor. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, you stood up.I thought you were raising a point of order and that was not a point of order. [Interjections.] It is not a point of order.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... [Inaudible.] ... a substantive motion. There is no place for a substantive motion in the Rule book and you know that this hon member is not telling the truth.

An HON MEMBER: She is misleading the public. They know exactly where

... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Forty seven (2) - ... [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr.A J Nyambi): Let me assist. Take your seat.

Mr W F FABER: Let us send you the Rule book so that you can make sure because if you ... are in two minds please read the Rule book and understand it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): I want to read it.

Mr W F FABER: Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘ve got two ... three of them. I have decided to leave the one that I have. I am reading from the one that has been given to me by hon Michalakis. In that book that you have given me hon member, Rule 44 from the Rules of the NCOP, a member may speak if is being recognised. You cannot just stand up as a member and speak in the Council and that is what you are doing hon member. These are the very same Rules that you are undermining. For you to speak in the Council you must be recognised. You cannot just stand up and speak.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I made my point that this member is definitely misleading the House by lying.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): I made a ruling that this is not a point of order.

Mr W F FABER: But Chairperson, this member can‘t get away with a blatant lie like that. You are again protecting your ANC members and you are not treating all of us the same.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, before the break I referred you to Rule 47(b) which exactly states that it is unparliamentary for

any member in this House to state a fact that is false. Then you ruled that we can make a substantive order. I asked you two times because I know there is no substantive motion in the no-Rule book. Now, Over and over again in this House the same member is doing the same thing and there is no Rule on that. This is a message that is sent out which is wrong. If we cannot come to a conclusion on this that leaves me with nothing else than to write a letter and ask the Chair to refer this matter to the Committee of Privileges and Conduct. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I am fine with the proposal made by hon Labuschagne. It is assisting the House to refer the matter so that it can be attended accordingly. That is in order hon Labuschagne.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson I would like you to please take the copy of the Rules that I sent to you earlier for you to read and get acquainted with and read Rule 46(b). You would find that Rule 46(b) ... and I would like your ruling on this; Rule 46(b) says no member in the House may deliberately make a statement that he or she knows is false. [Interjections.] ... It was a point of order from the hon Faber that the member deliberately made a statement that she knew was false and I would like your ruling on Rule 46(b). Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I am not going to subject the House to the discussion of the Rules. The very same point that hon Michalakis, a ruling was made about the very same point and there was a ruling about it.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair I want say what I said earlier in English so that ... [Interjections.]

Mr J J LONDT: Everybody is talking around the issue. Hon Dlamini is lying and I want you to call me out of order because I am not going to put it back. She is lying to the people of South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Londt, hon Mohape. Hon Londt, hon Labuschagne has made her view about the issue and as the presiding officer I said it is the correct view that it has to be taken to the right body to process it accordingly. There is no need for us to engage about it.

Ms L C DLAMINI: May be I should take a line of educating.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I want to know whether it is parliamentary to say an hon member is lying in Parliament? He repeated that statement.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Ximbi, it is part of the package of the issue that has to be processed. I am not making a ruling about the very same issue. [Interjections.]

Ms L C DLAMINI: Sihlalo, ngitsi mine kuloku lokwentiwa yi-DA, ayati kutsi yentani, ngoba lokucondvwe kwentiwa ngulolwabiwotimali lwalamatiko lange-33 labalucitsako kuchaza kutsi kuniketwa kwetinsita akumiswe. Bacondze kusho njalo. Kute emanga lapho. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, with regard to what the DA is doing, I am saying that they do not know what they are doing because by not supporting the aim of the budget of the 33 departments they imply that service delivery should be stopped. That is what they mean. There are no lies about that.]

Otherwise, it means that they do not know what they are doing in this House today. If they are disputing that they do not know what they are doing, hence I say ...

... angati kutsi kukhale nyonini namuhla. Bayatiphikisa. Batsi bona singaluvumeli lolwabiwomali lwekwakha tindlu. Uma singaluvumeli lolwabiwomali angeke kube nemali yekwakha tindlu. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[... I don‘t know what went wrong with them today. They oppose themselves. They say we must not support the budget allocation for building houses. If we don‘t support it there will be no money to build houses.]

Therefore, there will be no houses built because the budget has not been approved. That is the implication of what the DA is saying. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP wishes to raise the following concerns in respect of the Department of Human Settlements. The first issue is gross under spending by the provinces. For example the Provincial Department of Human Settlements in Gauteng in the financial year 2014-15 under spent by R1,4 billion. The same department in Gauteng under spent by R1,2 billion in the financial year 2015-16. This is all because of poor planning in this department; both at national level and also at the provincial level. That has to be attended to.

The next issue is the poor quality of houses provided by the contractors who are acquired by this department. This is also because of favouritism. There are no penalties given to those people who do not provide quality houses for our people.

Lastly, the IFP is also concerned with this issue of hostel dwellings. Some of the compounds at the hostels were finished some

10 years ago but they remain vacant. They remain standing empty because the department does not care. To the extent that these compounds are now being vandalised, but there is no action. We would like to see the department starting to budget for the hostel compounds in South Africa.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, I firstly want to start off by saying that the South Africans must please see who has been leading this debate today. It came from here, from this corner. It came from the Democratic Alliance. [Interjections.] The ANC was reactive throughout this debate. They did not once start the debate on this. They reacted and they wrote on pieces of paper – reactions to what we are saying. So, thank you for the complement that the DA is, in fact, leading government in this House. The hon member Dlamini who lied blatantly to us here today must please listen very carefully to what I am saying now.

The department of Rural Development and Land Reform still has no clear plan to settle, not only the existing outstanding claims, but also new claims that already exceeded 104 000, as we stand here today. If we take the current pace and budget as a guide, it will

take this department around 200 years to finalise the claims that are currently on the table.

The ANC government has failed dismally in dealing with land reform and rural development. If you look at the Magwa Tea Estates, for example, where it is now more than 10 years since those people have claimed and the land is still not in their names. It is in the name of Dove. [Interjections.] It is only an example.

The budget is shrinking and even less can be expected, going forward. Thanks to President Zuma‘s constant blunders, this department is undermining the constitutional rights and the economic freedom of communal communities by denying them full ownership of their residential properties. This is a constraint to the economic growth and rural development and thus places a cap on the opportunity for job creation and entrepreneurship. This could help to reduce the 8,9 million South Africans who are without jobs today. All of you, as the ANC are grandstanding. You don‘t care about them and they are increasing day by day. [Time expired.]

Mr O SEFAKO: Hon Chair, the African National Congress absolutely supports this Vote because we know the objective of this budget. We are aware of what exactly it addresses. This Budget Vote simply says that no African will ever be a slave or a pariah in his or her native land.

This Budget Vote ensures that farm dwellers and farm workers never have to be evicted by the aristocratic, bourgeois farmers. When we approach the elections, we will see them running around, evicting those that are not voting for them. We are aware.

Those that are against this Budget Vote are simply saying that the landless should never have access to land. [Interjections.] Those that are not voting for this budget are still dragging us to the old

... [Time expired.] The African National Congress supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

NOES - 9: Beyers Smith, C F; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Hattingh, C; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Michalakis, G; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chairperson, the foundation of having diverse sporting bodies representing us gets laid at the school level, where government is currently failing the kids of South Africa. The government is not just failing in ensuring that they have a proper education system and that they can compete in the job market but also failing ... [Interjections.] ... in giving kids across South Africa the chance and opportunity to be exposed to various sporting codes.

This ANC government is failing on every single ground, whether it is improving the economy or preparing the youth for accessing the economy.

Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Chairperson, ...

... ngifuna intsha laphaya ngaphandle emakhaya yazi ukuthi sibambene nempi lapha. Impi yokuthi sifuna ukuyakhela izinkundla zokudlala

ibhola ngesabelomali seZemidlalo Nokungcebeleka. I-DA ithi ngeke kuze kwenzeke lokho njengoba ingasekeli isabiwomali. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[... I want the youth out there in the rural areas to know that we are facing a battle here – wanting to construct stadiums where they will play football with this budget of Sports and Recreation. By opposing this budget, the DA says that will never happen. [Applause.]]

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, on a point of order: I don‘t know if the translation is correct, but the hon member made a very serious allegation and said that it is a declaration of war. A declaration of war is what the English translation says. I want to know whether she is also part of the EFF because that is very serious. We are standing here in front of South Africans. We are not here to entertain each other. We are working on behalf of South Africans and saying that, is a very, very serious matter.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon

Smit, that was a figure of speech. It is not what she said. [Interjections.]

Nk L L ZWANE: Hambani impela, hambani ngoba niyasiphazamisa. Bengisasho Sihlalo ukuthi sibambene nempi yokuthi kukhona abangafuni ukuthi umuntu omnyama impilo yakhe ithuthuke ibe sezingeni

elifanele. Kuyasikhathaza ke uma ngabe lokho bezokwenza ngisho nasentsheni eyikusasa laleli zwe. Bayahamba manje ngoba ngempela abafuni ukuthi siyokwakha izinkundla zokudlala ibhola ezindaweni zasemakhaya emakhosini.

Kunesivumelwano la phakathi koMnyango weZemfundo noMnyango weZemidlalo Nokungcebeleka ukuthi kuyokwakhiwa izinkundla zokudlala ibhola ezindaweni zasemakhosini ngemali okuthiwa yi-MIG, Municipal Infrastructure Grant bese kuthathwa izingcweti zemidlalo ziyoqeqesha izingane kwezemidlalo phelelezi sports code. Kunodaba loshintsho kwezemidlalo kungakho ke i-DA ihamba ngoba ayifuni ukuthi kube khona ushintsho ebholeni lombhoxo, Abafuni kube khona ushintsho ebholeni lomphebezo ngoba le midlalo sebayithatha bayenza imidlalo okungeyabo. Uhulumeni ka-ANC uthi le midlalo izoshintsha bayathanda abathandi.

UMnyango weZemidlalo Nokungcebeleka ifuna ukusiza abasubathi abayizingcweti ukuba baqeqeshwe bakwazi ukuyobamba iqhaza emazweni angaphandle – ayifuni i-DA, isiphumile yahamba yasishiya kule Ndlu. Sifuna ukuqikekekela njengoHulumeni kaKhongolose ukuthi ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms L L ZWANE: Leave, that is right - leave because you are disturbing us. As I was saying, Chairperson that we are facing a battle because there are other people who do not want to see a black person‘s life developing to an appropriate standard. It concerns us

if that is even done to the youth who are the future of this country. They are leaving now because they really do not want us to construct soccer stadiums in rural areas that are under the chiefs.

There is an agreement between the Departments of Education and Sports and Recreation that there should be soccer stadiums that must be constructed in areas that are under the chiefs with funds known as MIG, Municipal Infrastructure Grant where sporting experts would be asked to train children in various sporting codes. There is an issue of transformation in certain sporting codes and that is why the DA is leaving because it does not want to see transformation in rugby – they do not want transformation in tennis because they have taken these sporting codes and made them their own. The ANC-led government says these sporting codes will transform whether they like it or not.

The Department of Sports and Recreation wants to assist the talented athletes to be properly trained for them to be able to compete internationally – the DA does not want that, it left us here in the House. We want to make sure as the ANC-led government that ... [Time expired.]]

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Schedule put and agreed to.

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Debate concluded.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP, the official opposition of the NCOP, [Applause.] wishes to express its support for the Appropriation Bill with the variety of concerns. The IFP does so because it would not have been in the interest of South Africans to stall the functioning of government by implementing blockage tactics to the budget approval.

The IFP however, sends a strong warning to those in power to be honest, to uphold integrity and to put the interest of South Africans before their own egos. South Africa has coined a number of phrases that appear to be sounding nice but are lacking implementation, phrases like doing more with less, cost caring measures and so on and so on, which are never a reality when it comes to spending.

South Africa has suffered a great deal at the hands of bad government decisions which compromised the integrity of the country.

It will not help South Africa to keep on increasing a debt that does not help growth economy, but is only helping to line-up the pockets of self-centred individuals.

By simple logic, if our economy is not growing to can be able to provide more jobs, it means that the country also needs to cut on spending. So far what the country has done is to keep on increasing spending patterns each year, when on the other hand the people are continuing to loose jobs.

South Africa allocates a big chunk of the budget on social spending, whilst social protection can not be avoided under the circumstances similar to our situation. It is of concern that our social protection programmes are not accompanied by exit strategies to empower beneficiaries to stand on their own feet. These kinds of approaches are not sustainable in the long run.

It is also of concern that a big percentage of social spending is spent on sustaining the dependency of the people. This is intended to bring washed mind set of our communities to the unrealistic believe that a political party is providing services. It is government that provides services and not a political party.

As South Africa approaches the local government elections on 3 August 2016, the IFP says to all South Africans if you want to have a government of integrity in your municipality, vote IFP. If you

want an honest government in your municipality, vote IFP. If you want to have reliable councillor in your ward, vote IFP. If you want to have a councillor, a Mayor, and a Speaker that you can trust, vote IFP.

Ungethembela kuMtwana wakaPhingangene, ungayethemba i-IFP. [You can put your trust in the Prince of Phindangene, you can trust the IFP.]

I thank you, Chair.

Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, the Bill as presented reaffirms the ANC‘s policy priorities. There is continued funding towards ensuring energy reliability stimulating economic drivers such as agriculture, manufacturing, tourism, infrastructure, Small, Medium and Micro- sized Enterprises, SMME development, Special Economic Zone, SEZ, incentives and finally skills and accessing development.

For the longest part of our past, economy has been built on three driving forces: labour which was cheap, energy which was inexpensive and exporting commodities, which were high in demand. All of these economic drivers have declined over time. Labour is no longer cheap. Energy has become expensive and the demand of our commodities has dropped. Faced with these realities, the ANC-led government has had to respond actively.

Our collective responsibility of course led by the ANC, calls on all of us to instil confidence in the public as well as private investor sectors. While we face our challenges heard on and bring hope to our people, the ANC-led government will lead the process of building social compact and partnerships as we appreciate the fact that anything that needs to be done for our people can not be done by us alone.

In keeping with our objective of building a developmental state, we recommit to build capacity in local government. We are dealing with our priorities and will expand on delivering them.

Now, I have spoken about our collective responsibility, but let me focus on the responsibility of the organisation that enjoys the majority support of its countrymen protected by our democracy. The ANC must deliver a society that is prosperous, united, nonracial and nonsexist. It has the responsibility to deliver and implement the National Development Plan.

As much as other parties claim that they support the National Development Plan, NDP, but during the process of passing this Bill, the DA have demonstrated clearly that they do not support transformation, do not support redress, and equalising the playing fields. Yet, we are told everyday of the open opportunity and fairness beliefs.

Creating opportunity is and it must be a deliberate process. It will continue to be a deliberate process which will be funded and guided by the policy positions of the ANC. Unfortunately I can‘t speak about the EFF. They have not been part of the process from the beginning right until the end.

The ANC supports the Appropriations Bill which will see reprioritisation within and across the departments, yet not failing our responsibilities to deliver basic services, grow and stimulate the economy and ensure that human dignity and respect is returned to the people.

Unlike others, we support budget to build houses, give water and sanitation to our people. We support the expansion of delivering electricity to homes and businesses. To holistically improves the economic conditions of our peoples. We want to keep our citizen safe and secure and expand relations with our counterpart. To keep our children in schools, educators, and our police personnel employed.

It is said that great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events and small minds discuss people. We have heard no new ideas here today, but instead we have been told about President Jacob Zuma, the first ladies, ministers, Nomvula Mokonyane, Tina Joemat- Pettersson, and others, almost insinuating that these budgets are personal transferred into these individual accounts. Let the South African people not be misled, but let them know here today that

these budgets are to fund ideas, ideals, plans and dreams of a better future. I thank you.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please take your seats. Order! Hon members, I think I must start on the negative and the negative is that in terms of the requirements of this House, a minimum of 30 members must be in this House in order for us to pass an Appropriation Bill. We have counted and you were 30 in the House. [Applause.]

The second thing is that you are about to go on your constituency leave and recess period. We wish to wish you well. We hope that all parties represented in this House will farewell. We also know that all parties will wish to gain as much ground on the local government elections as possible.

From the presiding officers, we wish all the parties from the NCOP well. I want to say to members where you can, you must take a good rest. When we come back we are coming back to deal with all the rules of the NCOP. We are coming back to deal with issues of discipline in the NCOP. We also wish and we have been discussing

this on and off with the Chief Whip, with issues of members of this House leaving without being granted permission. Hon members, you do not tell us that you are leaving. You apply for leave and we grant you leave; unless you have a little letter that has granted you leave. The next thing you go awol and I think I want people to go and internalise this.

Hon members, we will also come back to a period where we as an institution ask all members of the NCOP to put on their thinking heads into the manner with which we will be celebrating the 20th year‘s anniversary of the NCOP next year. It has been the House that has changed from the Senate to the NCOP. It has been a House that has been rocked with a lot of interesting changes; from the Naledi – Surtie relationship, to the Mahlangu – Windvoël, Mahlangu – Ntwanambi and Modise – Mateme. We will be looking and coming back to recapture the spirit of the people who brought back the spirit of the NCOP, the crafters of our Constitution were trying to get out of this.

It is interesting because the ruling party has asked us to make inputs into the way forward about the capacity and the future of the NCOP. I want to wish you well and I want to say that for those of you who stayed through out, thank you, very much. For those of you who decided to go, the different parties we will see how they deal with the discipline and I am sure that there will be no mercy this time around. We will not be merciful because what we have

experienced this evening is carelessness on members of this House - if we were one person short. For it is not hon members, anything easy, like, ngifuna ukuhamba nami, siyalingana la. [I also want to go, we are all equal here.] So, I am going. It is something that says I respect the rules for I am entrusted with a responsibility. [Applause.] I just thought nje [Well], if I am entrusted with a responsibility, I respect everything that comes with that responsibility. We have been honoured to become public representatives and not our own representatives.

I always try to extend the meaning of public representatives not being utatu Khawula representing the IFP only or uMaModise representing the ANC only, but me walking in the street knowing that I represent anybody and everybody that I know. That is a huge responsibility, because tonight we carried the responsibility to represent the DA, the EFF and wonke umuntu. [Everybody.] [Applause.] For it is true that this budget that we have just past, must go and deal with every citizen of our country whether its representatives in this House voted or not. For that I want to thank you and wish you goodnight. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 19:59.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 May 2016:

(a) Appropriation Bill [B 3 – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 77).

(2) Bill passed by National Assembly on 26 May 2016:

(a) Expropriation Bill [B 4D – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 76).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Arts and Culture

(a) Revised Annual Performance Plan of the Ditsong Museums of South Africa for 2016 – 2017.

(b) Revised Annual Performance Plan of the Performing Arts Centre of the Free State for 2016/2017.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

Please see pages 206 of the ATCs.

Audio

No related

Documents

NCOP: Unrevised hansard

Bills

B3-2016 - Appropriation Bill

Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 26 May 2016

Summary

Minutes

Audio

Documents

Bills

What's wrong with this page?