Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 30 Jun 2020


No summary available.






Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=206OmdD3GnY

Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the National Council of Provinces at 10.00.



The Chairperson of the NCOP took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.









The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to remind you that the Virtual Sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces and that the place of the sitting is deemed to be Cape Town where the sitting of the National Council of Provinces is. In addition to the rules of a Virtual Sitting, the rules of the



National Council of Provinces, including the rules of debate, apply.



Delegates should note that anything said to everyone via the chat screen is deemed to have been said in the House and may be ruled upon. Delegates enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces, and for the purpose of a quorum all delegates who are logged in shall be considered to have been present.



For the duration of the sitting, delegates must mute their microphones unless they wish to speak. Any delegate who wishes to speak should use the raise your hand function. Hon delegates please note that the interpretation facility is active and delegates are also reminded to keep their videos on for the duration of the sitting. Delegates in accordance with Council Rules 2471, there will be no notice of motion or motion without notice.



We will therefore have to proceed. Before we proceed to questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Ministers and Deputy Ministers from the Peace & Security cluster. Further, I would like to make the following remarks.



The time for a reply by the Minister to a question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed to a question.



A member who has asked the initial question would be the first to be afforded a first opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for a reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. Hon members the supplementary question must emanate from the initial question. I now call on the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans to respond to Question 13 asked by hon Mathibe.




Cluster 1A



Question 13:




members, thank you for the questions which we have received, the response for Question 13 is as follows. There are three reported cases involving members of the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, where civilians are involved,



which are the ones which have been reported during the lockdown period. The first case as you would know is a matter which is alleged to be an assault case in Alex which involves Mr Khoza which is a question I will not go into.



But the second question is that of SANDF members who were captured on social media assaulting a young man in Sebokeng. Those members have since appeared on negative office orders where they were duly reprimanded and warned against such behaviour. An assault case has also been opened in Sebokeng under the assault case number 130/04020 and is still under investigation. No internal investigation was convened since the matter was handed to the commanding officer orders process.



The other case is that of an alleged common assault in Cato Manor, in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN. This came to the SANDF’S attention when the SA Police, SAPS, investigation officer contacted the company commander with a view to interview our members. No internal investigation has been done as this was not reported formally and it is currently being investigated by the SAPS.



Then there is another matter not involving members of the public but which has been reported as an alleged law assault in the North West to the Ikageng and the case number is 62/05/20. This incident was addressed to us as an altercation between two SANDF members. We will allow the SAPS to carry on with its investigation on the matter and this will help us determine if there are other people involved or not.



All this cases are still under investigation; internal department board of inquiries have not necessarily been convened on this. We understand that the military the military ombudsman with regards to the first one which I didn’t want to comment on for now not unless members raise specific matters on it. The South African Human Rights Commission are also investigating the same incidents.



In the country currently, you have quite a number of entities obviously who are interested in this cases and some of them have taken the initiative to conduct an investigation and we welcome that and we are co-operating. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr T B MATHIBE: Chairperson, greetings to the Minister, I would like to welcome the very elaborate response that we



received from the Minister and we also wish to convey our condolences to the members of the community that might have been affected.



Hon Minister, the expected function of the SANDF is to serve and protect the interest of the people of South Africa. Of course, during the line of duty you might find that there are challenges that they experience.



What are the properly defined grievance handling mechanism that the SANDF have that members of the community can follow?

- so that part of it is that we don’t have to see it only on social media. Members of the community are able to say if there is any challenge that they experience with the defence force these are the mechanisms that they have in terms of handling grievances that needs to come to your side and how are they handled as they arrive in your office?





could not unmute, there is just the last part of the question that I could not understand. Can the hon member just repeat that?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathibe, please repeat the last part of the question?



Mr T B MATIBE: Yes, I said the expected function of the SANDF is to serve and protect the interest of the people. And while they are doing their duty sometimes you would find challenges like the one we are referring to. I said, what are the properly defined grievance mechanism that the SANDF has that can assist community members to be able to lodge grievance if they have any grievance that they experience with SANDF members as members of the community.



The reason why I am asking it is to avoid a situation where members of the community can only post in social media instead of following proper grievance mechanisms that are there. What are the structures inside the SANDF that deals with those grievances?





one of the critical structures which we have which are meant precisely to look at whatever irregularities that are committed by the South African Defence Force is the office of the military ombuds.



Whatever irregularities that are committed by the members of the SANDF is the Military Ombudsman Office. We do have this office. Any member of the public may report a case in the Military Ombudsman Office.



Once the case is reported and once details have been furnished to the ombuds then the ombuds initiates an investigation. But equally, the Minister of Defence if so wish when there is a matter which is urgent may also initiate an investigation through the Military Ombudsman Office.



I just want to say hon members there are several ways - there is the military ombuds to whom you can go and report and then during the course of conducting our inquiry we then set up various structures such as for instance, depending on the nature of the case whether there is a lack of clarity around the issues of who was there and so on, we may institute a board of inquiry but in this instance relevant to this cases I have referred to, only one where we prepared a board of inquiry and that is the one which relates to Mr Khoza’s case. But arising out of that, a court has given us a directive about what the Minister should actually issue together with the members of the defence force in deployment. We have



issued those directives and not only have we issued them, we have also filed them to the court which talks to dos and which also talks to don’ts. For instance, if you look at some of the areas on top is the item ... [Inaudible.] ... that whereas in terms of dos, SANDF members have an inherent right to self-disciplined defence – you allow members of SAPS to take over that kind of a case. We protect the police. If the situation escalates – then as a member of the SANDF you come in ... [Inaudible.] ... you don’t have to get into a physical fight with the members of the public.



So Chair, I am just saying you have those directives but you also go on as there are several directives which I can read like - how they conduct themselves in a road block, how they conduct themselves in the event of provocation, which is that members must avoid getting into physical fight, members must exercise restraint, that members must give verbal warning in the event of provocation which is that members should not engage in physical fight with members of the public and members should not shoot.



These are some of the important things which we are trying to educate our people about. So there are people that



understand. It is not as though we have deployed without ... There is a code of conduct by the way as well. Members of the SANDF have a code of conduct as a way for them to pledge the republic, its Constitution etc, and it does say that “I serve the SANDF with loyalty and pride as a citizen and a volunteer and that I respect the democratic political processes.” It goes on and on. and it further says “I will not abuse my authority position, public funds for personal gain, political fortunes or any other reason.



These are some of the things which members of the public need to know. We do not deploy people who are raw, who do not understand the dos and don’ts are. They know what the dos and don’ts are. They have actually sworn in and pledged to a Constitution of the Republic by adopting the code of conduct.



In the same way, if a member of the public sees a particular case that is of a criminal nature they can go to a police station so that the police can investigate that case. I hope I have tried to cover what you were asking, Chair.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, I just want to refer back to what you have said in your opening part of



your answer. You said that all these directives, oaths and codes of conducts put in place mean that members of the SANDF knew what they were doing.



My question is that of these investigations some of them have not been referred to you ... [Inaudible.] ... My question to you is that should not you as the Minister have the authority, as the political head of the SANDF when you become aware of such cases to refer them to the military ombudsman for investigations - why have you not used this authority and refer them for investigation if that complain has not come from the public?



If you are honest about the fact that these cases need to be dealt with, surely you should not wait for the public to complain first and surely that should come from you as the political head to request such investigations to be made ... [Inaudible.]





Chairperson, hon George, when a case is reported to the police you allow for the processes of the police to be concluded. If you look at the first case which I talked to of



Sebokeng - I have said those members have since appeared –


because it was a straight forward matter which everybody saw


– those members have since appeared on negative office orders


– which means you appear before your commander, you are duly reprimanded for such behaviour.



But equally, there is a case of assault which has been opened with the police and the case number as I have said is 1300420. It is not a matter that requires a board of inquiry, it is not a matter which requires a military ombudsman because by the time everybody knew it was already with the police. So we have no problem with that because it is viewed as ... If you saw; I don’t if you remember a case where a young man was assaulted by officers. So it is a very straight forward case. It is clear and that is why we have not referred the matter to the military ombuds and the people have been given office orders.



Question 13: (cont)


Mr A ARNOLDS: Through you, Chairperson, hon Minister, the North Gauteng High Court passed the judgement that created the country’s military increase for the conduct of law enforcement for the nation-wide lockdown regulations, and



according to the outcome, people need to be able to trust the government to abide by the rule of law, make rational regulation and not to infringe on the right of those subject to the law.



Now, Minister, can you please indicate in terms of the deployment of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, why was there no directive in the first place before the deployment of the Defence Force? Why was there no directive in the first place? That is my question.





and hon members, the members of the SA National Defence Force, in their training, inherently, there are the do’s and don’ts, right? So, as they go to deployment, whether in a mission area outside of the Republic of South Africa, or even here, with the situation in the Western Cape, as they move, there are the do’s and don’ts. What we then did, for the sake of the public to know, is to publish the directive, so that all the South Africans become aware of what the do’s and don’ts are.



What is seen in these directives is nothing new, it is something which all members of the SA National Defence Force are familiar with. Therefore, ours now, which is what the High Court ruled, is to make sure that it is important for the South African public to be aware of what the do’s and don’ts of members of the SANDF are. That is the purpose of it. Of course, it did not stop us from addressing the members of the SANDF themselves. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Through you, Chairperson, hon Minister, in light of the answers that you have given, what should the consequences be for a SANDF member found guilty of brutality against the villain? Thank you, Chairperson.





if you are saying what should be done, in the event that the member of the SANDF have been found to have carried out a brutal act? I think that the law should take its course. In the first instant, one of the things that people need to know because there’s always an assumption is that, just because we have a separate military justice within the SANDF, we are not allowed to deal with everything presented to us, the civilian courts should deal with them.



For instance, if we look at issues like murder, rape, etc. Those are issues that are taken hoax in South Africa because in the first instance, even the investigation on them falls. However, if something happens that is relevant to issues of discipline within the SANDF, and also in deployment outside of the Republic of South Africa, then those matters are handled by the military judicial system.



So, I would say that I do not want to make an assumption on these matters, but rather I would say that I would deal with them, in the event that the matter has been debated and is taken to a court of law. Let the court be the one that gives a suitable penalty for such action. Thank you, Chairperson.



Question 46:




Question 46 about military equipment in Turkey, all arms trade between South Africa and any other country, is processed through the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, NCACC, which is a committee of Cabinet chaired by a Minister consisting of other Ministers. This is a structure that was established by National Conventional Arms Control Act 41 of 2002.



As I said, it is chaired by Minister, and the Minister in this instance, is the Minister in the Presidency. Therefore, all information and related work of the committee is processed through the Chairperson of the committee. I should think that before matters are presented to the committee, all matters are subjected to scrutiny by a Scrutiny Committee.



The Scrutiny Committee consists of Director-Generals, or any other delegated person by that department to be part of the Scrutiny Committee. Sector of the defence is also part of the Scrutiny Committee, and then they scrutinise the entire list of exports presented before the NCACC. The NCACC always receives advise before it takes the decision.



If it is not sure about the direction to take on a particular matter, there is always a state security which advises us about the political situation of a particular country.

There’s always defence intelligence and there’s always the most ... [Inaudible.] ... of international relations, which then advises the NCACC about whether we can give arms to a particular country or not. Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, if I may, it’s hon


Michalakis ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon Michalakis, if you want to speak, you indicate, and you raise your hand so that we can then note you for a point of order, or whatever issue.

Please do not do that, before you speak, I must give you a permission to do so. Oh I see, I am sorry, Mr Michalakis, I have just received an information that you are taking over the role of hon Ryder, I am sorry for that. You may please proceed. Sorry for the misunderstanding.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, you know me as an orderly member, and I was really trying to assist. My follow-up question to the Minister is that, Egypt has recently indicated Turkey taking forces in Syria and Libya. Is Turkey actually taking forces in Syria and Libya? Also, do you realise that by trading arms of security, South African weapons would most likely be used in conflict? Thank you very much.





South Africa has indeed approved transfer to Turkey in terms



of section 15 of the National Conventional Arms Control Act. Hon Chairperson and members, currently, there are no impediments in law to trade with Turkey in terms of our Act. In terms of the provisions of the Act as I said earlier on, there’s always careful analysis and consideration which is done before granting any approval.



The NCACC has applied criteria, as well as other policy consideration in order to give effects to the provisions of the law. I hear you saying that the arms which were sent to Turkey are likely to be used. I don’t want to make that kind of prediction, but if your information by your intelligence talk to that, either than a tract made by Egypt, if your information talk to that, then let’s talk about it when it happens. But for now, there is nothing preventing us from trading with Turkey. There isn’t even an arms embargo which has been announced with regards to Turkey.



Ms N NDONGENI: Through you, hon Chair, hon Minister, my question is whether in view of ageing military equipment in the country, has government considered the possibility of procuring military equipment? Thank you, Chair.





it is a new question, but I will make the point that it is now common knowledge to everybody that South Africa’s national ... [Inaudible.] ... Therefore, we are presented with the situation where we must reprioritise our programs. I know that people will say that for instance, the Defence Review of 2015 talks to arresting the decline of the capabilities of the SA National Defence Force.



Yes, we are trying to do whatever is needed with what we have, but for now, we are reprioritising. Our point is that, we may not be able to equip ourselves in a manner that which we have wished to, but what is important is that, it is not as though it is an army which is defenceless. Concerning our ageing equipment, it is a reality that we need to do something about, but this is not the time, because unfortunately, the finances of the country are not well.

Therefore, we will use what we already have and what has been already honoured. Thank you.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Through you, hon Chair, and good morning to the hon Minister. Minister, Turkey also supplies weapons to be involved in the conflict in Syria. Would you be ...



[Inaudible.] ... weapons to Turkey on the basis of protecting human rights? Thank you.





Chairperson, the hon member kept on breaking, therefore, there are some parts of the question which I didn’t get. I am sorry.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. I will ask the hon Boshoff to please repeat the question again, and be a bit slower, hon Boshoff, so that your words are not lost.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Hon Chairperson, I would also request the minister not to fiddle with her papers whilst she has been asked questions. Okay, I will repeat it again. Minister, Turkey also supplies weapons to groups involved in conflict in Syria. Are you therefore in support of a blanket embargo of the sales of weapons to Turkey on the basis of protecting human rights? Thank you, Chair.





much, hon member, Hon member, are you saying that am I in support of a blanket embargo? I did not talk about supporting



a blanket embargo against Turkey. But as I said earlier on, before you grant any export permit, one of the things you do, is to look at the political situation of that country.



You receive advice about geopolitics in that area, and whether in fact, the decision we are about to take, is lightly to compromise the people of that country. Now, in the case of Turkey for now, and I should say this that, we took the decision at the NCACC, we had given an advice and we have discussed it, because we are a committee of Ministers, and agreed that there would be no reason why we should not sell arms to Turkey.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are done, Minister, I guess.






The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Thank you very much.



Ms A D MALEKA: Hon Chairperson, my question to the Minister is, whether the department will publicly inform the South Africans what its military equipments are, and when does it plan to procure them?





well, let me firstly say that the challenges of the capabilities of the Defence Force are known, as I have made reference earlier on to our Defence Review of 2015, which talks exactly to that challenge. So, they are known, and obviously, when the time comes for certain things to be done, the Portfolio Committee and the Joint Standing Committee on Defence of Parliament, will know, because those are the two structures which we interact with on a regular basis.



Therefore, when information is requested for us to provide to those structures, we will do so. The South African public will know, what is it that the Defence Force is procuring or not. I don’t want to entertain any illusion. The reality of the South African situation right now, is such that we will not be able to procure any armament for now.



Yes, what we have received is what we have ordered in the past few years, but it is practically impossible to talk about expanding in that area, by way of procuring new equipment. We remain due with what we already have because after all, the fact that we have challenges as a country and as SA National Defence Force, does not mean that our Defence



Force is been unable to defend the country in the way they were called upon to do it against any odds.



Question 23:




much Chairperson. As I indicated earlier in question one which was in the Order Paper. This is more or less the same question.



There are three cases involving members of SA National Defence Force, SANDF, where civilians are involved which have been reported during lockdown. Yes, people may look at this and say; that is a small number compared to what they have seen, but sometimes what you see on social media is not necessarily what is happening on the ground.



Of course, there is the Khoza matter which I didn’t talk about earlier but I will talk about it because there are three kinds of investigations which are currently going on there. The first investigation was the Board of Inquiry. The second one is the one of the joint investigating team between the SA Police Service and the SA Military Police. The third



one is a case which have been tabled before the SA Military Ombud and they are dealing with the matter.



And as you are aware, the case has already been to court not for charges ... [Inaudible.] ... that any of the people who were around that area on the day when the incident happened should be suspended, which we have done where we were then directed to issue those directives.



As I said, the other case, the Sebokeng case, has been reported to the police as a criminal case and it has a case number. So, there was no need for us to convene any board of inquiry because it is a straightforward matter which everybody saw and is being investigated by the police.



Then the case of ... [Inaudible.] ... there is a case number there which is 45/04/20 and it is with the SA Police Service. Then, the North West case which involves the two SA National Defence Force members which is also the with the SA Police Service. The fact of the matter is that the military men and women are part of our society, for any kind of criminality they are accountable to the civilians’ court. Even the



investigations will be conducted by the SA Police Service. This is the North West case that I am now referring to.



Now, all these cases are cases which are receiving attention. But as I said earlier, you can’t run every time you see something on social media and then you believe it. Somebody has to come forward and say; indeed, what you have seen on social media happened in my community or vicinity so I have come to report a case.



You have the right to report the case to the police. You have the right to approach the SA Military Ombud to then investigate the case just to make the determination in the first instance whether indeed there is a matter to be investigated. Thank you, Chair.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Chairperson, can I just raise a point of order?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, what’s your point of order?



Mr A ARNOLDS: My point of order is that you didn’t recognise an EFF member. His hand was up for the previous question but you didn’t recognise him. I am just indicating to you that



please recognise our members when their hands are up on the system.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, please let us know if your member wants to speak and you can raise your hand using the hand function there. [Interjections.] Let me also say this to you, in addition to that, I am also assisted by a team of people around me here and what you are saying is not recorded anywhere in the process that we are dealing with.

Please indicate if you want to speak and indicate accordingly and you will be recognised. Hon Ntsube, can I find out if you

... [Interjections.]



Mr T APLENI: On a point of order, Chair



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Who is raising a point of order?



Mr T APLENI: It’s hon Apleni. Chair, just in line with what the hon Arnolds was saying, I did raise my hand. You said we must raise our hands using the hand function and I did raise my hand. You have to look at that. I am just appealing for consistency so that going forward it should not seem like we are interrupting you when you are speaking.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, we will try our best to ensure that everybody has an opportunity to speak. Please, people alerting us will try their outmost best to make sure you are not denied an opportunity to speak. Hon Ntsube, any indication on a follow up question?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Indication on hon Ntsube Chairperson. It’s the Chief Whip here. Hon Shaik is standing in. Hon Ntsube is locked out of the system due to a technical challenge. Thank you, Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Shaikh! I now call on hon Shaikh. I now call on hon Shaikh to raise a follow-up question. It does seem like we have a problem and in this situation we will move on. I am going to ask the table once again to please assist members who can’t log in or articulate whatever they need to communicate whatever reason. Please assist ... [Interjections.]



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Chair, we welcome ... [Inaudible.] ... reaction by the President and the ministry to release soldiers to help against the fight against COVID-19 pandemic. My question to the Minister is



whether the department has instituted charges in terms of ... [Inaudible.] ... discipline members who violated the rights of South Africans.





yes, earlier on I went through each one of the cases and what has been done. What matters and what is important is people who have been violated. Firstly, the matter is a criminal matter and therefore should be reported to the SA Police Service and South Africans have done that. Not only that, what we do then is to monitor what happens. The only case which we had to establish a commission of inquiry, is the case which relates to the Khoza matter in Alexandra.



As I have outlined earlier on, we have three different entities which have been working on that case because of the seriousness of the allegations which have been made. So, on any of the other matters, investigations are currently going on, and we have case numbers and then the civilian court will make the determination in their adjudications whether people are guilty or not.



Where we know that people have not carried themselves in a proper way, they have been subjected to negative orders.

Negative order is like being given a warning for misconduct and you appear before your commander and he gives you the negative order. So, I know that we may have not done sufficiently, but where a wrong was picked up, we have acted. Thank you Chair.



Question 23: (cont)


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We’ll now move on to the following supplementary questions, T Apleni, M Rayi and G Michalakis. Shall we start with Apleni? Hon Apleni! Hon Apleni from the EFF. Let’s start with M Rayi. Hon Rayi!



Mr M I RAYI: Thank you, hon Minister, just on the on the case that is before the ombudsman or ombudsperson, are there any timeframes with regard to the process as well as the outcome of the investigation by the ombudsman or ombudsperson? Thank you very much.





if everything had been done properly from the beginning, by now we should be having a report of the Military Ombuds. The



reason I am saying if we have done everything correctly is because initially the case was not initiated by the office of the Minister. Initially, the case was initiated by a hon member but the hon member did not furnish the necessary details. So when we picked this up then the ombuds wrote to me to say, Minister, please give us an instruction to carry out because we are not getting the details of the case. So can we initiate? Can you initiate then a process? So the Minister then initiated a process.



We are hoping that by the time hon members come back from recess that report will be readily available and that report will be presented to the Minister. The Minister will then give the directives to the chief of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, to implement whatever recommendations which will come out of that process from the office of the Military Ombuds, Chairperson.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, hon Minister, you are on record saying at the end of April that the Military Ombuds is currently investigating 33 cases of human rights abuses.

Minister, that’s 33 cases of human rights abuses against


South African citizens by members or soldiers within your



department, 33. It’s not a once-off case, and it’s really not a small number and I think you would agree with me. In light of the fact that it is not an isolated case and it seems to be a tendency and a bigger problem within the SANDF, surely for you as the political head, to take some responsibility for at least some decisive action to address this because the human rights abuses by your department of which you are the political head against South African civilians can surely not continue. Thank you.





very much hon member, obviously I am the executive authority in the department and you know, hon members, anything that happens to members of our society, if there is any wrong ... as everybody, everybody who is associated with that structure, including yourselves, hon members, you get ashamed; you get embarrassed. And I must say that when the allegations have emerged, I’m on record as having made a statement to the effect that we do not accept instances where law enforcement agencies abuse power.



I am on record as having said that, not once, even when the matter of the Khosa case, even though there has been an



investigation that gives us a finding as to who should be accountable in that case. I am still on record as having said, on behalf of the South African government that we hang our heads in shame for what has happened, for a loss of life. So I don't think, you know, an impression should be created that we do not take responsibility. We take responsibility; we made these statements because we do take responsibility for whatever action, whether good or bad. When it is good, we are able to stand up and say; you have done well. But when they have not done well, we are able to stand up and sometimes condemn them, even before we have verified the facts about a particular matter. So I am singling out that chase in particular because it is a matter of interest right now in South Africa and it is a matter which relates to a death of a human being.



And therefore it is necessary for me to indicate to hon members and to South Africans through you that at some point we said a board of inquiry has completed its work, and that it does not mean that this case is not receiving attention. This case is receiving attention from three different entities, which is namely a board of inquiry, your Military Ombuds and of course the last one which is the joint



investigation conducted by the Military Police and the SA Police Service.



It is a very important matter and I should say that we have expressed empathy with the families and in particular this family, the Khosa family, about what happened to them. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Minister. Can we revert back to hon Apleni? Hon Apleni of the EFF!



Mr A ARNOLDS: Chairperson, member Apleni’s hand was not up for this question, it was for previous question. So, you can move, Chairperson.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, thank you very much. We saw the raise your hand function, that is why I wrote it down. But, thank you very much.



Question 8:




Chairperson, hon members, the Department of Military Veterans has been facilitating for provision of [Inaudible.] ourselves



to qualifying military veterans in various provinces including, amongst others, Gauteng, Kwazulu-Natal, Eastern Cape, where is the highest concentration of military veterans.



The programme started in May following the adoption of the COVID-19 implementation plan for military veterans by the council on defence. The plan includes, among others, facilitating the payment of the R350 grant by SA Social Security Agency, SASSA, and of course, a top-up from the Department of Military Veterans. An amount of R50 million has been set aside for this and we are targeting over 4 000 most vulnerable, and I want to repeat this, most vulnerable military veterans who, according to SASSA and the Department of Military Veterans assessments, are most likely to qualify; that is 4 000. The plan also includes facilitating of job and business empowerment opportunities for military veterans.



The first batch of 50 military veterans who qualify, according to the established criteria on the poverty grant, have been approved by SASSA. We work closely with SASSA, and everything that we do must be informed and be in line with what SASSA does for other South Africans; and it’s currently



being paid R850 top-up now in June. Additional 450 military veterans are currently being processed for these payments.



A joint task team composed of SASSA, social development, the Military Veterans Association and the Department of Military Veterans has been set up to co-ordinate implementation and fast-tracking of the implementation of the plan. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Chairperson, I just want to ask the Minister what criteria are they using to provide the military veterans with food parcels? Because when you go to Golden Gardens military veterans have never benefitted anything. When you also go to ... [sound cut off]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister! Hon Motsamai, can we please get back to you so that you can finish off your question? Hon Motsamai?



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Yes, Chairperson. Thank you, Chairperson.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes! Are you done, morena [sir]?





Mr K MOTSAMAI: Ee, ke feditse ntate.



MODULASETILO WA NCOP: O feditse, ntate! Dankie. [Thank you.]







the criteria which has been used is obviously in the first instance that your name should appear on the database of military veterans, irrespective of which association you come from, if it is proven that you are a military veteran, your name appears with your force number on the database of military veterans; then that’s criteria number one, you have met it.



But, as I said earlier on, we are trying right now to assist those military veterans who are the most destitute.



I would not deny if you are saying that there is an area called Golden Gardens, but if it has not been covered it is not as though the relief which we are providing will not reach the military veterans in that area.



But in the work that we are doing we are partnering with organisations, for instance, we are partnering with SASSA – as I have said - we are also partnering with the organisation of military veterans named SA National Veterans Association, SANVA, because that’s another organisation which is a very critical stakeholder which verified information and assists us to collect information on the ground about the state of affairs and the ... of military veterans.



Mr M DANGOR: Minister, when the identified veterans pass away, is there any of that assistance then transfer [Inaudible.] any kind of [Inaudible.] deceased veterans identified? Thank you very much.





one of the critical issues which we are currently discussing right now, between ourselves veterans, is generally extending the benefits beyond the military veterans. But it’s clear at this point in time we will not be able to extend all benefits. But I’m specifically making reference here to the benefit which relates to health, that’s besides the educational benefits, which your dependants do access.



But now on this one of the burial, that support is just given to the family for them to bury the military veterans. For now, we have not extended the benefit for the burial of members of family of the military veteran.



However, with regard to the issue of health right now during covid, one of the issues we are confronted with, for instance, let’s say if you are tracing ... you are doing in the course of tracing, by the Department of Health, they find that there is a military veteran who must be screened and tested, and when you get to that place - I’ve been told by some of the medical personnel from the SA Military Health Services that you get to a house - of course, the veteran does not live alone, of course, the veteran has a family, [Inaudible.] obviously to extend the services to the dependants of military veterans because you can’t just test the veteran and walkaway, you test the family as well so that

... and you provide whatever assistance necessary.



So, with regard to burial, I am sure there will come a time when we’ll probably have to do that but for now what ... and education in the main and of course ... Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Minister, we are all aware that there is a register for the military veterans ... give us an indication as to where your department stands with this register and to [Inaudible.] thereof. Thank you.





was never [Inaudible.] of military veterans. There is a register of military veterans on the database which is a database within the Department of Military Veterans.



But what has been contentious has been whether [Inaudible.] in that on the database; in other words, in that register is in fact ...



I should say this that the database of military veterans stems directly from the Certified Personnel Register, CPR. In other words, all of the people who have been through military service, whether statutory or non-statutory member forces, when names have been submitted to the Department of Military Veterans and are proven to be military veterans then their details are included on the database of the Department of Military Veterans.



As I say, hon members, what had at times has arisen is not that there is no register, has been whether in fact all the people, all the names we have on that register are in fact verified members of military veterans’ organisations. Now, what we ... in terms of their history, not necessarily whether you are a number of an association or organisation or not; if you are a military veteran you qualify to register as such as the mili ...



As far as I'm concerned, of course, I am sure you must be aware, Chair, that there is currently a process within the Department of Military Veterans called process; so that we make sure that the only people who remain on that database are people who do have force numbers and if you don’t have a force number but you are proven to be a military veteran, let’s get information which proves that you are a military veteran so that you can then be included on that database.

Thank you, Chair.



Ms D C CHRISTAINS: Hon Minister, the department’s website, has for the past year and half, displayed a notice of no new applications for military veteran status; that no military veteran status will be accepted until further notice.



In fact, if I could show the hon Minister, if I could read it to the hon Minister, it says on the website: Applications to be registered onto the military veterans’ database have been closed until further notice, we apologise for the inconvenience.



This has been like this for the past year and half. Can the Minister please clarify this for us! Thank you, hon Chairperson.





Chairperson, one of the issues we have raised both in the Portfolio Committee and in the Joint Standing Committee on Defence is the fact that suddenly we have a rise of numbers amongst military veterans.



So, every day now you get, particularly after the establishment of the Department of Military Veterans, you have people applying to have their names on the register, nothing wrong with that, but [Inaudible.] as people apply, people are unable to even provide you with the force number.



So, indeed even in the department it sees carrying information about people who are saying they are military veterans; and all of those with regard to the new applications, unlike what was done with what we already have on the database, we said before you put all of those information on your database you have to verify backlog of verification of military veterans.



So, it’s more to do with we want you to come forward but please come forward with complete information, where you were, etc. so that we don’t have to embark on another process of verification and look for people who may know the person or not. Come with information which is credible, which will allow us to register you because there are benefits now involved in this.



This is money which belongs to the taxpayers of South Africa, there is money belonging to the state. So, whatever activities it is that we give out, we must be certain that we are doing the right thing. Thanks, Chair.



Question 22:





and hon member, the investigation into the crash of a South African Air force aircraft at Goma Airport in the Democratic Republic of Congo is still underway. And, of course it is on a very advanced stage. The outstanding matters are the following: ... [Inaudible.] ... leakage, but also damage to civil infrastructure and/or property and emergency fire and rescue services report from Goma Aviation Authority.



Now, these reports are required to address the terms - there have been difficulties ...[Inaudible.] Aviation Authority. So it’s not a matter which we can handle on our own, remember it happened in another country. The recovery process is underway; the aircraft has been defueled ... [Inaudible.]

...and electronics... so it’s not going to be about just getting everything out and bring it to South Africa. We have been picking up the essentials for the critical elements of that C130 and we brought them into South Africa. So the process is indeed underway. The second thing ... [Inaudible.] Thank you Chair.



Ms S SHAIKH: Chairperson, and thank you Minister for your reply, but in light of the response from yourself are there



any plans by department to replace the aircraft to beef up its monitoring work? Thank you. Are there any plans to replace these particular aircraft? Thank you.





hon member, no, for now there is no intention whatsoever to replace this aircraft, but of course over the years, South Africa does require a strategic airlift capability. We have very limited capacity if any at all and therefore now in view of the challenges which are currently facing the country and therefore the impact on the South African National Defence Force and the Department of Defence, it’s going to be very difficult for us to request for another aircraft. We have not even made the point because we are aware of the challenges of the country and how they impact on the work that we do. Thank you Chair.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, the minister said that there is no plan to recover the plane at this stage. But, I would like to know ... [Inaudible.] ... the aim to replace the C130 model of aircraft, because they were used since 1963 ... [Inaudible.] ... does she plan to do to have discussions with



Treasury ... [Inaudible.] ... says ... [Inaudible.] ... in future, how long that... [Inaudible.] ...will go?





think the issue that’s being raised here is more about whether we will buy the aircraft or not to replace this aircraft. And I responded by saying for now the defence force and even the government has no intention of providing any funding to the defence force for us to replace this aircraft. One of the reasons why we want the remains of this aircraft is, we want to see what it is that we can do on the advice of those who specialise in these matters.



Now, I did say earlier on that on 23, we should have had a team – I am aware that in fact the other team which had gone to the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, which was supposed to leave now is on quarantine, preparing to go. Hopefully now, during the lockdown alert level three, that there will be able to depart for Goma, so that everything is brought back.



But, as for buying I don’t want hon members to mislead the House, by suggesting that there may be an opportunity created



for the defence force to replace this aircraft. For now, it doesn’t look like and I think there are several priorities which are there and I know that...and I appreciate hon members, you mentioning that in fact the age of some of the aircraft which we are having, they are very old, but the reality is that, old as they are for now during this period we will not be able as the defence force to replace this specific aircraft with a new one. Thank you, hon member.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, hon Minister I think the point that is being made here is that, we sit with aircraft that’s been actually used by the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, since 1963, so the older aircraft the more expensive it also becomes to service them. But, on the other hand you also sit with the problem that you stand in the back when it comes to funding from Treasury, so you are in a catch

22 whilst the capabilities of our air force is going backwards. Despite the fact that we have excellent pilots because of the financial constraints during a bit of a 22 you’ve got old aircraft that’s becoming expensive to service you can’t acquire new ones.



For years the Minister to come up with an answer for us between yourself and your colleagues in the Department of the Treasury. But, chairperson when you speak of oh sorry minister one to focus ...[Inaudible.] ... the inquiry it’s been taking more... you indicated what the will hold up is.

Can you please tell us who is on the board of investigation in this matter and did you give them a timeframe by which this investigation needs to be finalised? Thank very much.





the board of enquiry was initiated by the Chief of the South African National Defence Force, that’s the first thing. The second matter we anticipated that the board of inquiry will take about six months to get the initial information but we never entertained the notion that... sorry... everything would have been done by the end of the six months. But to collate the initial information, relevant to the crash we knew that in six months will be in a position to have a picture of what actually transpired.



Remember, the investigation is not done directly here, it is being done from the people go to the DRC to collect information. As I said earlier on, there is also an



information which is outstanding from the authorities of the Democratic Republic of Congo. But, as if that was not enough, then the COVID-19 hit us and when the COVID-19 hit us - I recall that the actual lockdown on 6 March, then there was no movement in and out of the country at all, including the military, except for very essential goods from other countries who would have come to pick them up.



So, we are hoping that now that we are at alert level three and gradually moving to open up the economy that all of this work of - for instance the shipment of the remains of the aircraft will be done and that hopefully the government of the Democratic Republic of Congo will also see the urgency of providing us with the information which we have requested. I think we should all appreciate that it’s not a straight forward inquiry, it’s not as easy because you have various stakeholders who are involved in it. Thank you very much Chair. Chairperson, Chair...





see the Chairperson there, I suppose hon Gillion is the next one on that one, to take a follow up question, if I am correct.



Ms M N GILLION: Deputy Chairperson, my question to the hon Minister this morning, is whether the department has visited the affected families and whether such families have been given the necessary support? Thank you Minister.





Chairperson, thank you very much hon member. Hon members, we actually have no choice. When any accident occurs, immediately the first people to move to inform the family, it is the Office of the Chaplain General, so the Chaplain General immediately gives a directive to air force Chaplain to the unit where the member belongs to immediately visit the family, firstly to break new so that people don’t get information from social media or even from other sources.



So, in the event where death occurs that’s what you do, in the event where people are injured especially if it happens outside of the borders of the Republic of South Africa, we have an obligation obviously, immediately to let people to know that your loved one who was involved in this, but you shouldn’t worry everything is okay.



So, as for provision of support within the South African Military Health Services, hon member, I am sure you are aware that we do have psychologists, we do have social workers and as you know, the mandate of the South African Military Health Services is to look after the health of the personnel of the Department of Defence and therefore hon member once something of this magnitude happens and there is need for therapy for members of family, social workers from the South African Military Health Services and the psychologists from South African Military Health Services move in and provide whatever support is necessary for the families of the affected. Thank you Chair.



Question 47:




do not want to use the term which is that [Inaudible]12:55 –





Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister, we have good on authority reason to believe that only SANDF (South African National Defence Force, staff were consulted during the process, no eye witnesses, no [Inaudible] could you as the Minister give us an undertaking that this was not the case and if it was



the case, could you give us a further undertaking that you will ensure that a proper investigation is done and that all the parties involved will actually be consulted and that it will be done in a fair way? Thank you.





much Chairperson and hon member. Hon member, mine is to wait and all of us for the outcome of the investigation and once we are presented with the report of the report then we obviously have a responsibility to actually look at the report and raise whatever questions necessary for us to raise. What I do not want to talk to is the investigation as it is currently going on. I don’t even know that indeed that the only consultation SANDF, that’s not the report I have.



But, what is important for hon members because this report will be a public report, it will be a public document. So all of us will have the opportunity to scrutinize the report, to raise whatever questions necessary to those who are investigating the case and I’m sure when the report comes out it will also be giving guidance to all of us as to what needs to be done beyond the investigation by the police.



If the members will be charged, that determination will be made by those investigating the matter. It’s not a determination which can be made my me. I depend strictly on law enforcement agencies to use their professional skills to get to the bottom of the case and make some findings and make proposals to all of us. Thank you very much Chair.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much Chair. Minister, we respect your wishes and we understand that the investigation is on its way and being conducted and so forth but it’s something that has been on the minds and lips of the whole of South Africa because it was a brutal attack. What I would like to know from you is that should the findings be that the SANDF was indeed at fault for killing an innocent civilian, what responsibility will the real Commander-In-Chief and yourself as the political leader of defence force be taking to ensure that justice prevails? Thank you.





don’t think anyone of us has a choice of what to do and what not to do when an investigation has been conducted and there’s a clear outcome of that investigation and there are recommendations about what needs to be done, ours will be to



implement the recommendations because the people who are investigating the matter are people who are well skilled, well-schooled in the area of investigations of an incident of a criminal nature. So, they would be the experts. And then of course, I would imagine that they would be working closely with the National Prosecuting Authority once they have completed that investigation. I am not the one to say once the report or where the report is, whether people have been called in and so forth. I can only talk to this matter when the report is out and once the report is out, obviously I mean we were even asking what the national Commander in charge will do.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thanks Chairperson.





Ke batla ho jwetsa Letona hore batho ba rona ba batla ho tshepa masole ba batla ho tshepa le mapolesa. Na o kile a nka matsapa a ho ya ha bo Khoza ho ba tshepisa le ho ba bolella hore ba tla tswella le bona ka moo ngwana wa bona bolailweng ke masole ka teng? Ke dikgato di feng tseo a di nkileng ho bua le leloko? Ke a leboha.





much Mr Motsamai. Yes, the defence force has interacted, I did not personally but I assigned the Chaplain General to visit the family firstly…





... ho isa matshediso ...





… of the defence force and government of the Republic of South Africa but also to see the state of affairs in the family whether they would need any kind of support as they were preparing to burry and not because hon Motsamai they were taking responsibility ...





... hore ka nnete-nete masole ana a entse ntho e mpe empa botho feela hore re ya yaya re lo tshedisa.



English: 11:43


And that is what the defence force has done. We are all waiting for the outcome of our investigation.



Question 4:




and hon members, the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, makes use of the following measures to prepare members for employment in operations such as the current one — Covid- 19; mission readiness training; operational lodge training, including search and seizure, arrest and publication of minimum force; and training on the interpretation of the regulations. Also, hon members, note that members deployed have the same powers and duties as those conferred upon by South African Police Service, Saps, section 21 of the Defence Act of 2002.



The SANDF has its own operational directions, which become operational instructions which lead to operational orders. These instruments are in line with the Saps operational directives, as the SANDF functions in support of the South African Police Service internally ... [Inaudible.] ... The SANDF members have the same powers and duties as the Saps members, as you know. And of course then the SANDF reports whenever called upon to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence; the Portfolio Committee on Defence; the Civilian Oversight, which is your arm in the defence force called the



secretary of defence; and the military ombuds which has the responsibility to investigate.



So, civilian oversight also should assure South Africans that in the event where peace where to go horribly wrong, certain things will be done because we do have good civil military relations. Even when you look at some of the structures we work with, much as we are a Department of Defence that has the civilian secretariat and the SANDF, we also work with other civilian institutions because the matter of civilian military relations is something which we emphasise all the time.



You will see that in some countries for instance, people will have a general at the helm of their defence force as a Minister. But in the case of South Africa, deliberately so, our Constitution makes the determination that the President, who is the Commander in Chief, will appoint from Members of Parliament, a civilian who will then be charged with the responsibility of a political responsibility over the Department of Defence.



So, the matter of ... [Inaudible.] ... which we treasure is something which we always wish to highlight because the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa talks to a very clear mandate for the South African National Defence Force. We are not the old South African Defence Force which had no relations with civilians, but the only relation they had with civilians was that of murdering them. So, the whole area in fact, even as our soldiers go through their training, they do go through this curriculum which includes civil military relationships. Thank you.



Mr I M SILEKU: Chair, ...





Mphathiswa, mandibulise ngale ntsasa.





Minister, I have been listening to you from the inception trying to explain to us what the members of the South African National Defence Force go through in terms of training and how they handle civilians and how to conduct themselves.

Unfortunately, Minister, what we have been seeing in these last few days is actually unbecoming of members in uniform



because for a member in uniform to actually be accused to have allegedly killed a member of the public during a pandemic like the lockdown.



My question would be: You would expect the same conduct when they are within our borders because your members are not only deployed for peace keeping ... [Inaudible.] ... So we do not see what they do there but currently what we see when they are within our borders we would expect them to conduct themselves as members who are worthy of the uniform.



My question will be: Are the reported cases of brutality during noncombat deployment during Covid-19 and the national lockdown isolated or are other incidents of brutality during peacekeeping deployment been unreported or are they not being investigated? Thank you very much.





actually, incidents of brutality or allegations of brutal incidents in the defence force in deployment areas is something which you hardly hear about. If there is anything which is ... unfortunately cases which we get maybe ... [Inaudible.] ... at times on a regular basis, is incidents of



sexual exploitation and abuse — SEA cases. I think we have had one incident of brutality where there was a reference to a brutal act. The rest of the cases which we have from outside of the borders of the Republic of South Africa in mission areas in DRC and on the borderline have to do with issues of sexual exploitation and abuse.



In this instance, I will not categorise those as brutality, but I would say these are incidents of abuse because when you are called upon to protect civilians you are not expected to take advantage of the vulnerability of those civilians. They depend on you for protection and therefore even if you enter into a sexual relationship with civilians it becomes exploitation because you are taking advantage of a vulnerable human being who looks up to you as a man or woman in uniform for protection.



Brutality are cases which we really never receive or have. Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, to the hon Minister, earlier you said that when these incidents happen against civilians that you are embarrassed by it. Now, with great



respect, hon Minister, that answer is embarrassing because mere embarrassment is not good enough. You are sitting with families who have lost an innocent loved one for no good reason, simply because there is a toxic culture within the army that has no respect. And I am not saying it is all soldiers, I am saying that the toxic culture among some soldiers, that there is no respect for the lives of South African civilians.



That is not a training issue as you have mentioned that they are being trained, they are informed and they know exactly how they are supposed to interact with civilians. That is a leadership problem and you are the leader. With great respect, I don’t think that the public is going to be so kind in accepting the answer that I am embarrassed and we are dealing with it in terms of investigations as a reply.



The problem is not that they are being investigated; the problem is that these cases happened in the first place. I have heard in three or four questions that deals with this issue. I have heard a lot about investigations that drag on. I haven’t heard a single word on what is being done by you as the political leader to prevent these incidents. If you



indicate to me now what you are in fact doing to prevent these incidents, I can tell you now already that what you are doing is not good enough because 33 cases of human rights abusers in this country against innocent civilians is frankly unacceptable and it is a leadership problem not a training problem. So, what are you as the leader going to do differently from what you have been doing up to now to make sure that these cases do not increase?



My personal suggestion is for you to step down but I would like to know what you would suggest ... [Interjections.] ... There’s the Chief Whip coming to your rescue. Thank you, Chair.





welcome you if you were to submit the 33 cases to me, please. I would welcome that if you were to give me the 33 cases. The second matter is ... I do not know what else one needs to say to demonstrate to you and to the South African public, through you as an hon member, the steps which we have taken.



You can’t presume a person guilty; you presume a person innocent until you have conducted all your investigation and



the person is found guilty. I can’t make presumptions that everything that is brought to me the people are guilty and therefore there is no need for an investigation. An investigation in any situation is necessary to make a determination whether the person is indeed guilty or not.



The other thing which you are not talking about, hon member, is that you know we have a responsibility as members but also as a nation of South Africa just to send a message which is that yes, these are men and women in uniform, yes they are discharging their responsibility but again there are people who come from those communities where at the end of the day when they take off the uniform they must go back to.

Therefore, it is not necessary that when you see a man or a woman in uniform that you should walk up and provoke the man or woman in uniform. Absolutely not necessary because we are not fighting a visible war, we are fighting an invisible enemy and I’m using Covid-19 as an example.



Ours is to build a partnership between ourselves and the communities we serve. And therefore, there is no need for the communities as well when they see the men and women in uniform to feel intimidated by their presence or feel like we



don’t need these people. They are there to provide protection to all of us.



I am not saying they are always right but I think that as South African citizens we also have a responsibility. One of the responsibilities we have is to conduct civil education and actually teach our children to understand that the men or women in uniform, whether Metro or Saps or a member of the defence force, those are not your enemies but people who are supposed to protect you. These are people who in the country have a responsibility of protecting the communities and the nation at large.



So, I am just saying, hon member, the responsibility lies amongst all of us. It is a societal responsibility to educate our people, to understand and appreciate the role which is played by law enforcement agencies. I think Members of Parliament too should be in the forefront of doing that.

Thank you, Chair.



Ms A D MALEKA: Chairperson, my question to the Minister is whether there is a clear outline indicating how SANDF members are integrated into Saps and how they should enforce the



lockdown rules. Is the Ministry convinced that SANDF members understand this? Thank you.





SANDF works together with the Saps, is that the question? If it is the question, Chair, yes. Remember, once the President took the decision that there will be a state of disaster management — there is a disaster in the country — immediately government put together what is called National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, NATJOINTS, which is a structure that has always been there but the difference this time is that the NATJOINTS has been expanded to include director-generals from all government departments which deal with issues of Covid-19.



Now, the planning for deployment of soldiers and police is done at that level. The planning is informed by the intelligence services, for instance, we are also part of the NATJOINTS. The planning on who gives the command ... remember we are in support of the police so even your command in a roadblock it would be done, for instance, by a member of the police. Therefore, the relationship is a very positive relationship.



And by the way, I would assume that ... do you have a choice? They ... [Inaudible.] ... together in a situation at times which can be very dangerous where you are vulnerable as men and women in uniform. You have to work closely together and hold on to one another and you have to defend and protect one another. So, we work very closely because we understand what the vision of the country is. We understand why there is this mission and this deployment and that there is one enemy and that enemy is the invisible enemy called coronavirus.

Therefore, what the police do and what the soldiers do is informed by that which they have been directed to do by the Commander in Chief through the decisions of Cabinet that you will go and you will enforce the law, you will make sure that our people do not move up and down because we are trying to prevent the spread of the virus. So, everything they do stems from a mandate that has been given to them by that command.

So they work closely together. We have not had tensions whatsoever, and anyway there is no need for tensions because they need one another. Thank you, Chair.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I want to ask the hon Minister in her answer to hon Michalakis’s question, she said he must bring her the 33 cases that he is aware of. I just want to



remind the Minister that she was on record at the end of


...[Inaudible.] ... saying that there are 33 cases. So, Minister either you are confused today or you were confused that day. I would also like to say that in your explanation of the role of the soldiers ... [Inaudible.] ... and their conduct, are you actually saying that the civilians ... [Inaudible.] ... to soldiers? Is that what you are saying? Thank you.





Chair, it was ... What’s the last part? That enough what?





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, please repeat your question.








Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I said that in her explanation in the behaviour of soldiers or people in uniform, is the Minister actually saying that these people, the civilians, provoke the soldiers? Thank you.





is not all civilians and it is a small number, a fraction of people who, when they see law enforcement agencies, provoke them. We have seen this on social media like everything which is being circulated. We have even seen which we have not talked to, a brutal attack on a female metro officer by a community — unprovoked.



I think the reality is that it is there in South Africa sometimes but whereas in the past when you saw a police or a soldier you became anxious and sometimes you insult them because of what they stood for. You still have, unfortunately, that kind of mentality amongst some of the people that when you see a person who is a law enforcement agent, whether police or the SANDF or Metro, those are people who are the threat to the community when they are not a threat to the community but are there to protect the community. So, hence my response to that matter.



It is a reality and we have seen it and when it is all over — I think if there were ever to be a time when it can be over with regards to this Covid-19 — hopefully the hon members at times will then find it upon themselves to interact with the



men and women in uniform and listen to what their experiences are. Both good and bad, so that you have an understanding of a person who is in uniform standing in the street in a roadblock at 12:00 midnight. That group of people. Sometimes what happens as they are standing there.



Reality is that you do have people who simply provoke the law enforcement agents. It is not something we should deny. Of course that provocation as well should not justify abuse of power by the law enforcement agents. We have said that when you are provoked, just walk away from it. Respond appropriately, talk to the person, nudge the person not to do it, use persuasion and not use force to prevent that which is happening. I mean if a person throws a potato at your face

... We say to the soldiers they will throw a potato at your face, and what are you going to do? Are you going to take out a gun and shoot?



By the way, one of the things we should all be saying here amongst others is that we have not had a situation where police, soldiers have taken out and fired ammunition on civilians during this period. In spite of all the challenges



which have been there but there is not a single soldier who has taken out a firearm and shot at a civilian.



Question 19:


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The next question is Question 19, asked by the hon Ncitha.








The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members before we allow the hon Minister to respond we will note that the questions to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans have been completed. Therefore, I am sure all of you will agree with me that the Minister is free to remain with us or depart and attend to other matters and other responsibilities. However now let us move to the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services.





you, hon Chair.








Chairperson and hon members ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed hon Minister of Justice and Correctional Services.





Chair, the justice sector including the judiciary continue to make substantial contribution into the government’s endeavour to combat gender-based violence and femicide as well as in measures to protect woman and children, primarily in respect to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the National Prosecuting Authority. These commitments come therefore in terms of the Sexual Offences Courts which continue to yield high conviction rates.



To date 102 Sexual Offences Courts have been rolled out across all provinces together with the 55 Thuthuzela Care Centres attached to them. These specialised courts are equipped with upgraded technology to provide private testifying services particularly for children, persons with mental disabilities and traumatised witnesses.



The Thuthuzela Care Centres which are one stop care facility based in hospital premises, provide support services for victims of sexual offences with an aim to reduce secondary victimisation.



During the 2019 and 2020 financial year, 35 469 victims were assisted in the Thuthuzela Care Centres, with 31 807 being specifically in relation to sexual offences across the country and processes are underway to expand them into six more sites within the current Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.



Furthermore, in line with the Presidential Summit Declaration and the Gender-based Violence and Femicide, GBVF, National Strategic Plan the department promulgated regulations relating to Sexual Offences Courts which were gazetted in February 2020, the regulations set out support services intended to create a justice system that is speedy, responsive, caring and effective for victims of sexual offences.



In addition, the department has commenced with the launch of gender-based violence and against children under the



consideration namely: A Criminal and Related Matters Amendment Bill to among others introduce stricter bail and sentencing conditions or provisions, the Domestic Violence Amendment Act which seeks to address the gaps and anormalities that manifested themselves since the Domestic Violence Act came into operation in 1999.



The Criminal Law Sexual Offences Related Matters Amendment Bill which seeks to extend the protection afforded to victims of gender-based violence and introduce a new offences of sexual offences. These Bills Chairperson, will come in the next cycle of Cabinet. We intend to introduce them as soon as Cabinet has approved them in the next cycle.



The lockdown has had an impact on the inmates is dire as postponement of cases result in prolonged jail time. This put additional strain on the overcrowded correctional facilities. To ameliorate this challenge, the courts, continue to prioritise cases where accused persons are in custody. The accused persons are also being brought to the courts as a means of reviewing the bail circumstances in terms of section 3(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act, that relates to offenders who have been granted bail but cannot afford.



Yes, cases which were and continue to be struck off the roll due to the lockdown are continuously being reviewed and re- enrolled in accordance with the priority court roll that every court must continue to enrol. Thank you Chairperson.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon Chairperson, let me thank the response from the Minister. It was a very informative response and well presented, Chair. My follow-up question would be a proposal to the Minister. Is there any interaction of partnering between the Department of Basic Education in a view to explore a possible way of putting together a curriculum especially that would focus on gender-based violence in early childhood centres starting in primary and high schools? Is there some thought between the two departments in terms of addressing the issue of gender-based violence at an early stage? Thank you very much.





Chairperson, there is working together in terms of collaboration between the two departments. For the Department of Basic Education is a member of the director general’s Intersectoral Committee on Child Justice as prescribed by section 9 Child Justice Act. This committee is chaired by the



director-general of justice and constitutional development and is tasked by the Act to give oversight in the implementation of the Child Justice Act.



Every year the Department of Basic Education submit its annual reports on child justice which I table in Parliament. I think within that context and that forum we can be able to look into the matter that the hon Ncitha is raising in terms of the development of the curriculum for basic education including for early childhood development, hon Chairperson. Thank you.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Hon Chairperson can I ask the Minister to make use of the interpretation services please?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am sure the Minister is more or less ready.





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Kan ek voortgaan, Voorsitter? Baie, baie dankie.






The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister are you ready? Hon member you may speak in Afrikaans. Hon Minister just make sure you do not lose any of the messages intended to. Hon Arnolds.





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Baie dankie, Voorsitter. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil net seker maak dat die Minister gereed is.





I just want to make sure if the Minister is ready with the interpretation services?





am not.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Alright then is fine. Hon Minister, it is clear that in our country South Africa that gender-based violence is also a crisis. The President in His state of the nation address in 2019 has also sharply raised the issues of gender- based violence and then there were promises made about bringing and strengthening the emergency teams and bringing together all the resources in terms of the department, the



police, social services health, justice and education together in dealing effectively with gender-based violence and violence against women and children. We all know that government’s responsibility is to protect its citizens.



So, you have now also mentioned the three Bills that are currently there. However, there can be good laws, but if there is no strict implementation of those laws and seeing that perpetrators are jailed those laws it all means nothing.



My question to you is: Since 2019 when the announcement was made about emergency services, emergency responses and now with COVID-19 and the current situation where we have seen an increase in danger-based violence what is your take on these now? Is there any impact in terms of the justice system has done so far to protect those vulnerable women and children?

Thank you.





Chairperson, I do think that there is an impact because when you look at the collaboration between the working of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, the Police and the Thuthuzela Care Centres, it has also helped with regard to



the conviction rate. In society as we speak. You can pinpoint direct conviction almost every day that are being done by the courts. As an example on 24 June 2020 a 31-year-old man of Nyakallo township in Allanridge was sentenced to 36 years in prison after he pleaded guilty in a plea and sentence agreement on two counts of housebreaking with an intent to robbery and two counts of rape by the Free State High Court.



On 25 June the Port Elizabeth High Court sentenced Zukile July to life imprisonment for raping and sodomising a 30- year-old his estranged wife.



Hon Chairperson, on the 24th the Wynberg Magistrate Court sentenced a man, his mother and the aunt of his victim on the charges of rape and human trafficking for a collective 80- years imprisonment. This was on subsequent of their conviction on several cases including rape, human trafficking, kidnapping, assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm.



Hon Chairperson, I am just giving these examples to show that on a day-to-day basis the courts do convict perpetrators of these heinous crimes through the work that has been done by



the NPA and the Police. After the announcement by the President, the interministerial committee is working very hard to fast-track and ensure that there are interventions on many of these issues. I think as the Minister of Police come, you will also hear about the number of arrests done in the judicial process. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, good day. Hon Minister, the uneasiness from the vulnerable women and children with the pending release of prisoners with the sole purpose of mitigating the spread and containing Covid-19 in our prisons: How do you ensure that those convicted and sentenced for this abuse do not get released by mistake? Thank you Minister and Chair.





Hon Chair and hon member, as you may be aware that one of the conditions for being released for this COVID-19 parole special dispensation is that you should not be convicted of any offences related to gender-based violence and sexual offences that was put as the precondition. The process has been meticulous to the extent that all the inmates as they go



through the DNA process as expected that help with the verification of data.



The SA Police Service, SAPS, also participate in the process, also the current situation and issues of social distancing.

There are checks and balances were put to avoid any error that may occur. Immediately if an error does occur we act immediately to rectify. I can state that up to so far that we are able to deal with this without a lot of errors. In that regard to mistakenly release those that are convicted of the above mentioned crimes that are included in the special parole dispensation. Thank you, Chair.



Mr M S SHACKLETON: Hon Chairperson, I am a special delegate from the Gauteng Provincial Legislature today. Thank you very much for recognising me. Through you Chair, to the hon Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, President Ramaphosa almost a year ago, speaking about the safety of women as a matter of urgency said you are going to make necessary impairments to our laws and policies to ensure that: Which amendments to the law to this effect to date have been tabled before Parliament. Not before Cabinet or drafted,



but actually tabled by his department in the last year. Thank you, Chair.





Chairperson, to date we have made various amendments that are before Parliament that relate to patriarchy including issues of rape, for an example the national guide is to the removal of the prescription period of 20 years that was there that a person who had committed an offence of rape cannot be charged if it was done 20 years ago.



That Bill has been passed by the National Assembly and I think it will be coming to this House soon. Hopefully it would be concluded without delays. The other one relates to the spouses in a customary marriage that they should have equal kind of a protection and sharing in the assets of that marriage. This also goes into dealing with issues of patriarchy and creating an equal society.



As I have said already there are Bills before Cabinet. As you will be aware Chairperson before Cabinet can release a Bill there are processes of consultation which we have now undertaken also with the society including the civil society.



The only last process that is there is the cycle of Cabinet which we are fast-tracking to conclude. When you look at the date you will then realise that these Bills are put on a fast-track mode and process. We are of the view that we will be able to table them without any further delay upon the conclusion of the process by Cabinet.



Question 44:




Chairperson, the question relates to overcrowding. The rate of imprisonment in our country for ... [Inaudible.] ... centres and awaiting-trial offenders is increasing at a rate that surpasses our rate of developing new infrastructure. Our prison population is largely constituted by those from disadvantaged backgrounds, more particularly young, black males. While that constraint continues to be challenging, developing new infrastructure is also a challenge, as is providing effective rehabilitation programmes in old prison buildings.



We are also examining the criminal justice system in areas such as sentencing so that incarceration does not become the



only option for inmates particularly those with short-term sentences.



We have started to review some of our policies and we are looking forward to a ... [Inaudible.] ... contribution which will emanate from public debates through the legislation processes so that, together, we can address the overcrowding challenges in our correctional centres.



However, it should be noted that overcrowding in general has consequences including minimising available bed space, hampering the maintenance of infrastructure, having a negative impact on the health conditions of inmates, impeding the security management of inmates, increasing ... [Inaudible.] ... mobilisation and activities, and reducing the safety of officials. The capacity of officials to render development and rehabilitation programmes for offenders is also affected.



In an effort to meet our rehabilitation obligations, the department has forged partnerships with various organisations and departments. This assists us to meet the mandate to



effectively rehabilitate those who have been sentenced. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Michalakis, any follow-up question?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Of course. Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minister, actually the short answer to my question, which was what the effect is of overcrowding on the rehabilitation of prisoners – if I listened to you correctly – is that overcrowding makes rehabilitation almost impossible under the current circumstances.



I have asked this question for the past six years, and since 2014 I have gotten a string of answers from whoever is the Minister of Justice of things that they are going to do to address overcrowding and to make the rehabilitation process more effective, but nothing happens, among other reasons, because, as you said, there are budget constraints.



But, Minister, rehabilitation should be your first priority as Correctional Services. If the Minister agrees that overcrowding negatively affects rehabilitation, should the



problem of overcrowding not have been dealt with by now, and, do you agree then, Minister, that it would be impossible to rehabilitate any inmate effectively for as long as the problem of overcrowding persists? Thank you very much.





Chairperson, the challenge of overcrowding cannot be resolved by Correctional Services only. It’s a challenge that needs the entire system ... [Inaudible.] ... from society where we must have ... [Inaudible.] We are obliged, constitutionally, to put these people into our centres and to put them through the rehabilitation programme. That is the first thing.



The second thing is what I have already mentioned. This is the issue of sentencing people to prison for less than two years. Research does indicate that sentences of six weeks, six months and so forth do not help us with the programme of rehabilitation. That also relates to the National Prosecuting Authority, the NPA, and to the judiciary’s attitude in terms of sentencing.



Lastly, the huge rate of overcrowding does affect our rehabilitation programme, but we have to make do with what we



have. We do have programmes that are aimed at dealing with this issue of rehabilitation. And we can show success ... [Inaudible.] There are a number of successes of people who have been released from our facilities who are very good ambassadors ... [Inaudible.] A huge number of them do contribute positively to society and do contribute economically, but there are obviously those who do go out and commit heinous crimes ... [Interjections.] Those then become the examples. Our preliminary reports indicate that most of those who reoffend are those who have had short stays in our facilities. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, thank you very much. Minister, obviously you have stated that the rate of conviction and the rate of prisoners will not match. There will always be ... [Inaudible.] ... at this point in time and ... [Inaudible.]

... is available. Isn’t it time that we looked at a different kind of sentencing for ... [Inaudible.] ... such as community service? [Inaudible.] ... the next time the hon Michalakis speeds in the Free State, he ... [Inaudible.] ... is sentenced to do some community service somewhere? Thank you, Minister.





hon member. As Minister I agree that that is what we should look into. Some of the initiatives that are being debated out there are aimed at that. Also, sufficient training and engagements with the NPA and the presiding officers would also help. It is for that reason that we have developed the habit of taking the new ... [Inaudible.] ... magistrates to some of these correctional facilities to understand the circumstances and the conditions and also to understand overcrowding. This is so that when they do sentence the offenders, they know the conditions they are sending them to. This is particularly when it comes to short-term offences in that there could be a platform in terms of which they are sentenced to do community service, to replant and do many other things that will be good and positive and add to society. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Nhanha?



Mr M NHANHA: Thanks, Chairperson. Minister, I am sure you know by now that your department doesn’t really have a good track record when it comes to rehabilitation and overcrowding in your facilities. Would you agree that your department is



still in violation of human rights, as reflected in the Cameron report; and, secondly, that your department is still not complying with the UN Nelson Mandela Rules? Thanks, Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We note, hon Nhanha, that you continue to have your hat on. This is one of the things that we need to look at and finalise as the House. So we note that. Hon Minister?



Mr M NHANHA: No problem, Chairperson. I will be waiting.








Chairperson. It has been proven ... [Inaudible.] ... since 1994 that ... [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Minister is not audible.





know why, Chairperson, but I am muted. I’m not sure if


members can hear me now.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, we can hear you now.





been proven, Chairperson, that the department is transitioning from prisons to corrections. There are various laws to that effect to help us with issues of corrections, hence we are now speaking about rehabilitation and so forth.



There will, from time to time, be challenges as the hon member has raised in reference to the Cameron report. There are also various other reports that will come out from time to time. The department is a signatory to the UN Nelson Mandela Rules. In fact, we are not only a signatory, but we are at the forefront of reshaping the rules, standards and minimum standards of treatment of inmates across the globe. That is clear from the safeguards we have put in place in terms of the inspectorate. The department does comply with human rights standards as expected by the Constitution, but challenges do arise from time to time and as they arise we attempt to resolve these challenges. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Motsamai?



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thanks, Chairperson.





Nna ke batla go botsa Tona gore a go na le manaane a tsosoloso mo kgolegong, le gore ke eng bagolegwa ba sa kgone go dira fa ba tswela kwa ntle fa ba tswa kgolegong, le morago ga go ikamanya le manaane a tsosoloso? Potso engwe e ke batlang go e botsa Tona ke gore, a lo setse lo agile dikgolego tsa bagolegwa ba ba betelelang le go bolaya bommarona mo metseng ya bona le ba ba dulang ba le nosi, gonne go ntshiwa bagolegwa ba ba golegetsweng go utswa swikire le dimonamone ... [Ga a utlwale.] ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Inaudible.] ... hon Motsamai is unmuted ...





Mr K MOTSAMAI: ... go ntsha bagolegwa mo kgolegong ba ba tshwaretsweng tshenyo e nyenyane.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes. Let’s try to assist there


to ensure that the hon Motsamai is audible. I am sure that



... [Inaudible.] ... essence of what he was raising has been communicated. Minister?





Chairperson, the first issue raised by the hon Motsamai is true: ex-offenders do face difficulties in society in getting employment. I must also state that there is no law that prevents ex-inmates from getting a job or that prevents employers employing ex-inmates. But employers have created the impression that it is illegal for them to give jobs to

ex-inmates. We have made many attempts to clarify that that is not illegal. In fact, employers are allowed to employ ex- inmates.



The other challenge is that in some institutions you will obviously find that they have made it some kind of strict policy not to employ ex-inmates. So this is a conversation we need to have continually with employers to give ex-inmates a chance. Those that have done these programmes qualify for jobs.



The second question was about separation and so forth. This is something that we are obviously dealing with in terms of



the mediums ... B, A and C. As the hon Motsamai is aware, the maximums are mostly the ones who were high risk or those who had been sentenced for long terms and they are usually placed. But because of the minimum sentence regime, the number is growing and space has become very scarce. We are sometimes forced to allow a mixture of these, but only with the medium kind of inmates.



I could not hear the last question clearly, but maybe he was asking what processes we have put in place to release people who committed petty crimes and so on. That is the only thing I could hear. I could not hear clearly. All the people who are being released through these programmes of the special dispensation are going through community corrections for integration into society. Thank you.



Question 37:




Chairperson. The COVID-19 pandemic has exposed the extent to which a modernisation and digitisation of the justice system broadly, has lacked behind. In the same ... [Inaudible]... pandemic, has presented opportunities to maximise the use of technology in the courts, thereby forcing all of us to have



an active role in making the Fourth Industrial Revolution, and thus making it an important adventure globally. In respect of criminal trials, hon members may be aware we have provided in the directions we gazetted in the regulations of the Disaster Management Act of 2002 that, postponement of cases be made through audio-visual links where they have been installed.



The solution is available for the same courts, which are linked to 18 correctional facilities across the country, out of more than 750courts. Thousands of cases are postponed through the link. It is for that reason that we are rolling out this audio-visual link solution ...[Inaudible] ... centres and ...[Inaudible.] Unopposed bail applications are also heard through the audio-visual link. We are also developing a remote audio court interpretation solution that will enable court interpretation services to be provided remotely, especially in respect of foreign language interpretation. Where there is no audio-visual link installed between a correctional centre and a court, other alternative audio-visual links, such as teleconference or video conference or any other electronic mode will continue to be utilised or explored.



Criminally, courts, make use of technology in respect of civil cases, and even excessively than in respect of criminal cases. These include urgent motion applications, ex parte applications and uncontested divorce cases. These are done through the various virtual platforms such as Microsoft teams, the Zoom platform and other virtual platforms The Rules Board is working on including each high court and the magistrates court rules to further ...[Inaudible] ... that were finalised ... [Inaudible]. It is also important for members to note that the development in the Information and Communications Technology, ICT ... [Inaudible] ... connectivity ... [Inaudible.]



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you Chair, hon minister, thank you for your detailed response. Hon Minister, my first supplementary question is, I would like to know if the Minister can indicate how many cases couldn’t go ahead because of the lockdown since March 2020. Secondly, as a result of these cases being postponed, obviously the inmates are under your care or under correctional services care. What is the rand value of the additional time for these inmates to be spent to look after them? Basically, how much additional money was



spent to look after the inmates as a result of the postponement of the cases? Thank you, Minister.





Chair. I think with regard to the two questions we are still consolidating all the reports and the statistics that relates to that. There is a process that is being spearheaded from the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA and the judiciary to ensure the prioritization of the cases that were affected during this period. That will also give us the clear statistics and the picture of those that were affected. It is also the same with regard to the rand value and the amount that it has cost us to keep some of the people during this difficult period, we are still in consolidation Chair. Thank you.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, could I ask that when those statistics has been consolidated, they be sent through to us in writing.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am sure; we can note that.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you hon Chair. Thank you Minister.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much hon Chair. Minister, the Chief Justice has as far back as 2014, called for an electronic court filing system. What are the reasons for it taking so long in light of the fact that the in magistrates court, the court files disappear all the time should e-filing reports have been prioritised?





Chair. In fact, cabinet took a decision in 2008 for an integrated justice management system, which includes the complete modernisation of the entire cluster, including the court operations, which also relates to the issues of e- filing and the whole modernisation connectivity across the country and so forth. I must state that they have been challenges. It is an issue that is being is has been prioritised, and it is an issue that we continue to grapple to turnaround the situation, to ensure that it does happen in the high courts and also in the magistrates’ courts, including the issue of connectivity that I spoke about, which we are currently also working with Sector Education and Training Authority, Seta to help us in the various courts of our country. Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much Chair. Minister the Integrated Justice System as you say 2008, it’s been twelve years in the making. I honestly think that it is high time that this system is actually functional to a large extent, which we don’t ... [Inaudible] ...to ask you, with regards to your Information Technology, IT systems ... [Inaudible]

...have indicated in a written reply recently, that the Department of Justice and Correctional Services makes use of the system infrastructure that is provided by Seta.



In my opinion this is not nearly good enough to ensure that sensitive information that is being dealt with in the court proceedings of the public is actually protected satisfactorily, as a provider as is perhaps not the most ideal. Have you been considering alternatives? How are you going to fund this entire project in light of the financial constraints to make sure that sensitive information in the courts do not find their way into the wrong hands? Thank you.





Chair, indeed 12 years is a long period but there are things that we can point in that 12 years. There is a pilot project happening in Gauteng, related to case line, and I know the



hon member will be aware with regard to this and also the various programmes, including the Home Affairs National Identification System, HANIS, which emanates from the same Integrated Justice System, IJS, the modernisation in the police, and also at correctional services. So, there is something that we can point at chair, is not like the whole

12 years went to waste, there is something that happened.


It’s just that we are saying is not enough, we are still lacking behind. We need to move faster and ensure that there is complete modernisation to the satisfaction of society, so that society can then see the benefits of the modernisation project. With regard to funding, obviously there is going to be prioritization as the Minister of Finance has said, and obviously there will still be challenges in that regard. We still have a minimum funding that will help us to forge forward with the programme of modernisation. Thank you.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much Chair. Minister. we are aware that, before lockdown the backlog of cases was already a major problem and we also realise that COVID-19 could not have been foreseen. Minister, please could you indicate to us how you will ensure that this national backlog is effectively



addressed if the past backlog on its own seems impossible to deal with. Thank you Chair.





[Inaudible] ... president indicated already that, there is a team through the judiciary, the NPA and the relevant stakeholders in the administration of justice process, that is looking at all the backlogs that are in the courts, including the ones that have emanated as a result of COVID-

19. The prioritisation programme has been put in place to fast-track and facilitate the speedy processes. that relates to most of the cases that are affected by the backlog. A clear, detailed kind of response and programme will soon be put in place that will enable these to function. Thank you.



Question 20:




Chairperson, the following measures are outlined in the Department of Correctional Services Human Resource directives that the department has put in place. Consideration of fair and transparent alternative placements or redeployment of officials to different roles or responsibilities. Such



alternative placements are done in consultation with the officials concerned.



Considerations are given to placing vulnerable officials in the back office where there are low risks for them to be infected, while those who still fit or strong, could be considered for frontline placement. In other words, this relates to mainly placing restrictions for such officials to do certain high risk duties, for example, guarding of inmates in the public hospitals.



Stricter physical distancing protocols such as staggering of shifts for flexi hours, where such officials are allowed to report for duty a bit later, are also encouraged. We have encouraged regions to allow flexi hours with intervals of between 15 and 30 minutes during reporting for duty, with a view that those with comorbidities could be allowed to report later than everyone else.



Furthermore, limiting the duration of close interactions with colleagues for the public is an option which managers are encouraged to consider for the colleagues under discussion.

Lastly, consideration is given to colleagues to work from



home, if they are provided with necessary tools such as the laptops and internet access. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Through you, Chairperson, Minister, again, thank you very much. What I would like from you is, is there an interaction with the union involved in the institution of Correctional Services in terms of understanding the regulations, so that their membership and also individuals within that ... [Inaudible.] ... Are they aware of such regulations, so that there is no challenge of those that are saying that they do not know what to do. Also, we find ourselves in a situation where people just abandon the place of work. Thank you very much.





Chairperson, yes, there is interaction with relevant union on this issue in particular, and the various issues affecting the employees, to ensure that everyone understands where we are, including training on the directives and the regulations, and the continuous consultation with the employees affected and concerned. There is, Chairperson.

Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Through you, Chairperson, Minister, I’ve got a simple yes-no question for you. At least, 16 citizens have died in prison due to COVID-19. Would this number have been lower, if overcrowding was not the issue?





Chairperson, across the globe, there are inmates or officials that died in facilities due to COVID-19. There is no hard and fast rule or a clear good reference across the globe, but from our perspective and ... [Inaudible.] ... is that, even if we had 10 inmates across the country, we would still be affected by COVID-19. So, there is no one who is immune from any quarter, and it is even worse when you look at the numbers of the country, where our percentage almost mirrors the situation in a society. Thank you very much.



Question 45




Chairperson, I must say that we were a bit not sure exactly about the question, but we attempted to answer it. Hopefully, it was what the hon member was trying to ask us. I wish to point out from the outset that, the question asked by the hon member as to the child justice registry and that the Child



Justice Act does not provide for the development and maintenance of register for child justice requires.



Nonetheless, Chairperson, section 161(e) of the Act provides for the establishment of an integrated information management system for the management and monitoring of cases involving children in conflict with the law, through the child justice system. The department has in compliance with the later section established an Integrated Case Management System for Child Justice, ICMSCJ, cases, which is a national repository of quantitative and qualitative data that places cases of children from the entry to the exit points of the court system.



It is a dash board that provides the segregated numerous to permit evidence-based analysis of strengths and intervention, as well as the monitoring and evaluation of court performance in the management of these cases. Through the ICMSCJ, the information from the SA Police Services, National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Legal Aid SA is uploaded on a transversal platform and thereby shared across the departments and entities in the criminal justice value chain.



It is important to acknowledge though, that the ICMSCJ is not without challenges. The system experiences challenges which vary from data discrepancies, inaccuracy, to data incompleteness, some of which has been raised by Auditor- General in the previous financial audit reports. The

Director-General Inter-Sectoral Committee established in terms of the Act, are addressing these challenges, Chairperson.



The Justice Crime Prevention and Security cluster, has also identified the establishment of the integrated information management system, as a priority focus of the cluster through its integrated justice programme. Thank you.



Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Chairperson and Minister, apology to the slight confusion there. My question really was about child protection register. However, thank you very much for the added information afforded, the information that you have given us that is very valuable as well. As I said, the question really was about the child protection register. So, my question will be different from the response that you have given us.



My question is as follows: In the last seven years, only 662 names were added to the register, despite the fact that the old number of the dependants are much higher. This means that the register has been unable to fix this problem for the last seven years now. Minister, this poses a huge risk for already vulnerable women and children.



Why has this problem not been able to be addressed, and who is responsible for addressing the fixing of the child protection register? Thank you.





Chairperson, as I have stated earlier on that we wanted to state what we are responsible for, the child protection register is the instrument administered by the Department of Social Development. So, I think that question would be more appropriate for them to be able to respond. We can take the question and forward to them, or the hon members can ask when Social Development does come to this platform. Thank you.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Through you, Chairperson, Minister, in the previous question today, you have indicated that you had interactions with the Department of Education, with regards



to the child protection register. But what I would like to know is... [Inaudible.] ...



Okay, through us today, what measures have you together with the Department of Education put in place, to ensure that all educators or workers prior to be appointed to positions as educators? Has the SA Council of Educators as indicated in 2018, that they will be ready in 2019 to add any sexual abuse perpetrators to this register? Thank you very much, Chair.





indication I have provided with regard to the Department of Education is in relation to Child Justice Act, where the Department of Education also participates in the forum, and it was in the question by the hon Ncitha whether are we planning to have some kind of awareness and educational programmes in the Department of Education in that regard.



So, I am also in this regard feel that the question should be directed to the Department of Social Development, particularly with regards to the elaboration in terms of the child protection register, and the Department of Education not employing those that are in the register because, it’s



only that custodian department that has access to that registrar, Chairperson, as you are aware that, that information is not yet made available to us. So, it’s only Social Development that can answer to that effect.



Ms S SHAIKH: Through you, Chairperson, Minister, as you have pointed out that your department has an integrated case management system for child justice cases. If you can perhaps give us indication of how many child offenders or juveniles accepted in the system, and whether child offenders have also benefited from the mass release of prisoners, and will the department facilitate their smooth reintegration into the society? Thank you, Chairperson.





Chairperson, in terms of the juvenile facilities, indeed, some of the juveniles will benefit from the parole dispensation, and up to so far, about 23 of them have benefitted countywide, in terms of the number. In terms of the juveniles across the country, we have got a total number of about 3780 that are awaiting trial or remand detainees, and those that have been sentenced are about 1510.



So, Chair, that is the number that we currently have across the system, in terms of the consolidated number of those that are still within the system in the pipeline for the courts, and those that have already been sentenced for our own facilities. Thank you.



Mr M NHANHA: I am sorry Chair; I think that you didn’t notice


that I have taken my hand down. Thank you.



Question 33:




Chairperson. I can see hon Nhanha has been able to take his hand down but he is still awaiting guidance to take his head down. The question by hon Dodovu ... [Laughter] ... Yes, Chairperson, there is minimum progress made due the process to be followed when releasing sentenced offenders on parole.



On 11 May 2020, the department began with the process to release selected low risk offenders and the initial release started from 20 May 2020. As of 19 June 2020, the total number of offenders released was at 3 557. Prior to the release, the population was at 154 943, 101 928 sentenced, 53 015 were remand detainees and other unsentenced inmates which



translated into a total population of 30,68 over population, which made social distancing difficult. After the recent release as of 24 June 2020, inmate population was at 147 922

consisting of 95 154 sentenced offenders and 52 763 remand detainees and other unsentenced inmates which translates to 24,75 overcrowding level. There is a reduction of about 6%.



In terms of breakdown of provinces of the numbers that have been released, 315 males and 14 females in the Eastern Cape, the total number is 329. Gauteng, 666 males and 64 females, the total number is 730. Kwa-Zulu Natal 802 males and 80 females, the total is 882. Limpopo, Mpumalanga and the North West, 515 males and 50 females, the total is 565. Free State and the Northern Cape, 584 males and 50 females, the total is 634. Western Cape 877 males and 62 females, the total is 939.



On the second question, Chairperson, yes, plans have been made to integrate such inmates back into society to avoid reoffending. A fairly certain approach stretching over a period of ten weeks to allow for a proper consideration of the qualifying offenders; the special parole dispensation who will not qualify for an automatic placement; a normal parole consideration process is being undertaken and the parole



boards will among others take factors that minimise the risks into account during the considerations of the process.



The qualifying offenders will be placed into systems of community corrections to continue serving their sentences and to comply with the set of conditions of placement. The department has the capacity to consider offenders and place those who qualify. As indicated, only low risk offenders who meet all the requirements and the conditions for placement on parole will be placed on this parole programme. The requirement is that only offenders who have undergone relevant rehabilitation programmes aimed at addressing their offending behaviour will qualify for placement as this will minimise the risk of reoffending. There are two additional requirements for placement on parole; including the taking of fingerprints and the DNA samples for comparison with the SA Police Service database as a prerequisite for placement.



Every qualifying sentenced offender’s profile will be assessed and considered individually by the parole board before they make a recommendation for placement on parole. This will include affording victims the opportunity to make representation on why an offender should not be placed on



parole. All relevant factors will be taken into consideration during this process, which will include any prior convictions for violent offences committed. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, Chairperson. It seems that hon Dodovu has been kicked out of the system again. Minister, while we appreciate the 6% reduction in our prisons, my follow up question is; whether this mass release has been communicated with victims? Thank you, Chair.





Chairperson. The process of the parole board includes them communicating with the victims, placing the abused on whether the offenders should be released on parole or not. This process has however been complicated by the current period of social distancing. The department is then forced to use electronic means including telephone calls to the victims, which mostly is found to be a very cold way by the victims of engaging on these kind of difficult issues which needs empathy and some kind of person to person contact.



This has really delayed us on this project, however, the department is soldiering on and at least making the victims



understand the conditions of social distancing and the current situation we are in, in the country that necessitates or force us to communicate with the victims through electronic platforms. Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, rehabilitation entails more than just teaching skills and ticking the boxes that is required by the parole board. It requires that the individual needs to be rehabilitated to such an extent that he or she can be integrated into society as a responsible individual that would hopefully make a contribution to society thereafter. In light of this comment, Chairperson, would the Minister agree that the release of these inmates was a desperate attempt to relieve presence of some of its overcrowding in the light of Covid-19 but there are no guarantees that inmates will go back to the circumstances suitable to preventing reoffending. Thank you very much.





Chairperson. I won’t agree with that because these measures had been advised by the United Nations and countries across the globe had been advised to reduce their population to



enable the management of the virus in the various correctional centres or prisons across the globe to be practically possible. It is not a knee-jerked kind of a programme as you would have seen that it is done thoroughly through the parole boards, the DNA sampling, the working with the Saps and using various experts to deal and advise on the issues of rehabilitation whether the offender has undergone that programme. Mostly, it has been found that some of them who are left with a period of two years has gone through sufficient processes of rehabilitation, Chairperson. Thank you.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Apologies for not switching on my video. It is because of the network in my area. Minister ...





... ndzi lava ku tiva leswaku eka nomboro leyi ya 551, xana yi katsa na swifundzankulu swin’wana kumbe i ya Limpopo ntsena ke?





Chairperson ...





... nomboro yihi, 551? ... Ohoo! Ya lava va nga huma eLimpopo?








Eka vukorhokeri bya makhotso Limpopo I xiphemu xa rijini ya Mpumalanga na North West. Hinkwaswo swi endla rijini yin’we. Nomboro leyi ya 515 yi katsa Mpumalanga, Limpopo na North West. A hi xifundzankulu xa Limpopo ntsena. Kutani ke, nhlamulo eka xivutiso xa xirho xo hlonipheka hi leswaku, i ntiyiso swi katsiwile xikan’we. Inkomu.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you, Chairperson. I missed the Minister’s presentation when he was outlining the criteria used for the parole, if they do include those women who have young children. I understand that one of the issues that he highlighted was that all those who have been implicated in gender-based violence were not given the parole. However, I would like to know what is the status of those that have young children in their institutions? Thank you.





Chairperson, it does include those that have infants in the correctional facilities. The criteria are that women are also prioritised in the parole dispensation. They are the ones who are expected or allowed to go quicker in the process. Thank you, Chairperson.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. The next question is Question 40, asked by hon Michalakis to the Minister. Minister, Question 40.





just trying getting it, hon Chairperson.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): Question 40, Chairperson, is for the Minister of Police.





to get it here. No, it is not my question, Chairperson....


[Laughter] ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister for having come to respond to our questions and we wish that in future



we will continue to interact and deepen the engagement. But then we move on ... [Interjection] ...



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... on a point of order!



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): Hon Chair! hon Chair, can I rise on the matter that I’ve put before the Table staff.






The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): I have requested the Table staff to indicate to you, hon Chair, that, we take a comfort break and come back either at 13:45 or at 14:00 so that we proceed with the next Ministers that are supposed to take questions.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Perhaps, that is really appropriate, hon members, that at this point we take a comfort break and come back at 14:00. Hon Ngwenya, in terms of facilitating will take us, uh! Sorry, hon Lukas, at 14:00 will take over. Thank you very much. Let’s thank the Minister once again. Thank you.





thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon members. It was a ... [Inaudible] ...



AN HON MEMBER: Thank you, Minister Lamola. Thanks.



The Council suspended at 13:25



The Council resumed at 14:02



Question 40:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Can you hear me Deputy Chair?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We hear you. You are clear.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Can I make a disclaimer? As I was sitting here with two Ministers deliberating on their questions, we lost the sound three times. It goes and comes back. I don't know whether it’s load shedding or what. We might have that problem as you continue. I just want to give that information.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We can understand technical problems.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: The answer hon Chair is no. Police brutality is not out of control. The SAPS is enforcing regulations in terms of the national state of disaster which is unprecedented in very fluid nature. Under those conditions, we believe we are not out of hand. Thanks.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, your own party disagreed with you. In the first six weeks of lockdown 50 people died in police custody, 25 cases of torture and 589 cases of assault were lodged. Minister, are you saying that police brutality is not out of hand, that these figures are normal, and that you condone these figures? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks Deputy Chair, I do not know where the figures come from. My official my official figures will really come from the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID. On the figures I have, I do not have anybody dying as proved by the IPID in police custody and I have 11 people that have died because of the police action. I



do not know where these figures come from. I would love to get a copy, the authority and the source of those figures. As I speak, my source will be IPID and those are IPID figures I am having here. Thanks.



Mr M NHANHA: Thanks Deputy Chair, Minister, probably the difference between what hon Michalakis asked and your response is that he used the word brutality and you used action, but I suppose it has the same effect.



Deputy Chair, ...





... ndingathanda ukubuza apha kumMphathiswa weeNkozo zamaPolisa ukuba, njengoko sisazi sonke ukuba i-IPID ayifumani mali yaneleyo kuhlahlo lwabiwo-mali lukarhulumente. Ingaba Mphathiswa uluntu uluthatha njengabantu ababalulekileyo, okanye kubaluleke oosopolitiki kuwe? Ukuba uthi Mphathiswa, uluntu lubalulekile ngaphezu koosopolitiki, ungawenza kusini na amatile-tile okuthatha imali kule yokukhusela abantu ababaluleke kakhulu, (VIP protection) uyise kwi-IPID ukuze bakwazi ukuphanda ezi zenzo zamapolisa, okanye le nkohlakalo yamapolisa sithetha ngayo? Enkosi.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the IPID or any arm of government is put in place because it is important, this is inclusive of IPID. The question of graduates will be a generic problem as raised by the hone member. But having said so, the question of the IPID budget is something that is forever raised even with the treasurer we hope it will improve especially that we believe that the work of the IPID will increase after the amendment of the IPID Bill because they will do more work on that one. We will agree that there is no there enough funds that are going to the IPID but at the same time there is no wing that is not important that should get the money to do its job. That would be the answer but fully agreed that it is important that the IPID gets enough resources.



Ms B MATHEVULA: Thank you very much Deputy Chair, Minister, if police brutality is not out of hand, many cases of alleged police brutality are recorded by the ICD, why are they not necessarily becoming public information. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: I believe that the member was talking of IPID when she says ICD. That information is public because the IPID reports to the portfolio committee and we all know



that the portfolio committee meetings are public meetings. If the member thinks she needs more information, no problem the IPID can give that information. As I say, the IPID reports to the open committee of portfolio committee and is known that once it is reported there, it is public information. Thanks.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson, I do not think we should take this matter of police brutality out of context. While we do not condone police brutality but the majority of our police force are not only doing a good job but on a daily basis putting their lives and those of their loved ones at risk. That being said, hon Minister, after reported allegations of police brutality during the lockdown comparatively higher than normal or to the point of painting the country as a police state, what support has been provided to police officers to handle the anticipated challenges of the lockdown? Thank you Deputy Chair.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks Chair and thanks to hon member, Chairperson, I fully agree that this question of police brutality cannot be condoned by the leadership, the management and the political leadership or generally by everybody that works with the law enforcement agencies.



Deputy Chairperson, the point must be raised that there is serious brutality against the members of the law enforcement especially the police. Since the lockdown, about eight members of the law enforcement from both the SAPS members and the metro police have been brutally killed in South Africa.

That is a call we usually make to say, if we talk about the brutality, we also request the community and the leadership to make a call on their communities to say don’t be brutal on the members of the law enforcement.



Unfortunately, most of the people that were be brutally killed would be the young people including women that will be shot and killed by the members of the community. It is on that score that we won’t condone, hence there are structures that are looking after police when they go out of their way. Internally we have the inspectorate, we have the IPID and we have human rights. We are making a call to say there must be also be a call from the community that says don’t support brutality against the police.



Having said so, under the COVID-19 lockdown, whether there has been an increase, I would not say so because about two

276 000 people have been arrested. The figure that we have



seen as the brutality of the police and reported to the police is 49. If you look at that figure and the people that have gone through the hands of the police you would not say that it has increased. We would have loved that we didn’t have that 49 and other figures, but we would say that the figure is not very high. Thanks.



Question 12:




hon Minister, hon Minister, can you continue with the next question? I am just trying to check here because the Question Paper and my guide is different. I think hon Mathevula would be the one you need to respond to.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: I think the next question is from hon Mathibe.





Mathibe. Just making sure because my Question Paper and my guidance is a bit different. You may continue. You can continue and respond to hon Mathibe because it is the same question as in the previous one.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: From the 27th March 2020 to the 27th June 2020 the SAPS division expectorate received a total of

49 service complaints against members of the SAPS for the use of excessive force. The following number of services complaints for excessive forced were received per province: Eastern Cape six, Free State four, Gauteng 15, Kwazulu-Natal 10, Limpopo one, Mpumalanga four, Northern Cape zero, North West zero and Western Cape nine. All service complaints received were registered for investigation. From the total of

49 service complaints received, a total number of 36 investigations were finalised as indicated below: Five in Eastern Cape, four in Free State, 10 in Gauteng and nine in Kwazulu-Natal. Of the 36 finalised service complaints, a total of 20 were confirmed as valid charges of which one resulted in a disciplinary action and no criminal charges were initiated on any of those and finalized. A total of 16 service complaints investigated. However, the investigation revealed that complaints could not be substantiated based on the information that was provided by the complainant. The following number of complaints investigated are pending per province: Eastern Cape one, Free State zero, Gauteng five, Kwazulu-Natal one, Limpopo zero, Mpumalanga one, Northern Cape zero, North West zero and Western Cape five. A total of



13 service complaints are still under investigation and are awaiting feedback. Thank you very much, Chair.



Mr T B MATIBE: Thank you very much, hon Minister for the elaborate answer that you have given, I think we are now clear in terms of the province and the statistics. The reason why, hon Minister, you will find that members are asking, more especially on police action as you put it instead of police brutality, it is because of the historical context of the police action in our country, but otherwise I want to thank you for that answer.



The question that I want to put as a follow up is: What are the strategies that you have put in place as the department in order to prepare members, more especially the SAPS members to ensure that there is peaceful management of compliance with COVID-19 regulations? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks very much Deputy Chairperson, the training of the SAPS has been repurposed and shifted for them to know that they are trained under the new dispensation, under the country that has the Constitution and under the country that has the human rights tradition. We



have stopped training police for ‘skiet en donder’ as it was a form of training formally given to the SAPS. They are taught in the current dispensation, which includes the Constitution as part of the curriculum and a code of conduct. That code of conduct is read in any event of the SAPS so that they remember what they are supposed to do.



More than that, as the question says, what have we done? We have extra structures that look after the police that are going wayward both internally, which will be the inspectorate and other structures and the IPID that oversees the action of police. Also, we are very open, we have lots of meetings with the Human Rights Commission and many other nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, we also subject ourselves to scrutiny and talk with the organisation like the ISS so that we are in line but listen to other people. There is a lot that is done to make sure that the police are in line with regard to the present dispensation in the South African situation. Thanks.



Mr M NHANHA: Thanks Deputy Chairperson, Minister, you are saying training for the police has been repurposed. There is a shift from skop, skiet en donder. My observations out there, that training could be on paper but quite frankly, it



does not translate to tangible results out there. Minister, ever since the lockdown, I heard you numerous times in public platforms and in the media, pretty much preoccupied with justifying police brutality on numerous occasions. I am yet to hear you condemn police brutality or incidents that may be translated as police brutality. Can you, today, in this meeting condemn police brutality?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, I like the operational word that says 'activities that can be interpreted as brutality'. Nobody supports brutality and police getting out of their way. Maybe, I don't know what the hon member is saying with numerous times. I have simply said, all events of the police we read the code of conduct. The police are forever reminded that they are policing under the constitutional dispensation, but also human rights. Police are also reminded that the law allows them to defend themselves. I have said since the lockdown we have lost eight members of the law enforcement who have been shot and killed. The law is very much aware of that. That is why the law, especially under the Criminal Procedure Act, police would be allowed to use the proportional force if needs be to defend ... that's what the law says … the innocent South Africans but also to defend



themselves. It is not me saying so, it is the law. It even goes to section 49 to say, if police are under threat, if police are under danger, they are allowed to use the deadly force. We are not going to say police should not defend themselves, police should not defend the South Africans that are under attack. But at the same time, police are reminded that they are under the human rights policing system. It is on that score, that, if they get out of that innocent, they push innocent South Africans to the brink, they get punished, they are taken to correct ... some of them are in court because of that ... What we have said is all in the law of the Republic of South Africa, including police defending themselves. [Time expired.]



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, good afternoon, Minister, Minister, you answered to previous questions that ... [Inaudible.] ... I hope you are enjoying that meal hon Lucas. [Laughter.] A journalist covering a story was first shot with rubber bullets in Yeoville before being asked to produce a permit. Siyasanga Gijana lost to her eye after she was hit in the face by a police officer while she was fetching water in her own yard. I know these cases have been reported to the IPID, Minister, but do they fall



within your definition of police brutality or not? Thank you, Deputy Chair.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the question of somebody fetching water ... there was a protest around there, and the rubber bullet it was not aimed at the individual that we are talking about, and as such, then that would have been accidental that it happened. The brutality for me will be when deliberately and systematically police use excessive force to restrain or deal with those people. This one for me was accidental. The one that the member is talking about, the Yeoville incident, that would be brutality because the police

… I am told and it is under investigation ... started by shooting and then ask questions later. It shouldn't be like that. I would take that one. The investigation will tell us exactly where we are with those cases. Thank you.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Deputy Chair, let me first thank the Minister for the swift response with regards to police brutality cases that got reported to him. What I would like to know from the Minister as a question: Is there a programme with one or two sister departments with regards to helping those that get affected through police brutality? Thanks.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, we work very closely with the Department of Social Development. We also, as the police do have those services. We do have social workers; we do have people that work with the psychology services. If needs be, we do avail those resources to the people out there, both the members of the community and the SAPS members, as I have explained, that they are sometimes put under a very tremendous stress that they need to be assisted. Yes, we do have those services and we avail them.





very much, Minister, the next question will be Question 1 from hon Mathevula. I just want to remind members that there is only four follow up questions. When we reach the fourth question, we are going to the next question.



Question 1:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: The answer is no. There is no case registered at Sekhukhune police station. No arrests have been made for people harvesting Lengana herbal medicine in Sekhukhune land. There was a concern raised by Inkosi in the community at the ... [Inaudible.] ... tribal authority to harvesting Lengana herbal medicine. However, we are reminded



to stay at their places of residence during COVID-19 lockdown, except when they are in possession of permits for reasons stated in the regulations of the Disaster Management Act, Act 57 of 2002. Thank you very much Deputy Chairperson.



Ms B MATHEVULA: Thank you very much Deputy Chair, I am covered by the response. Thank you.



Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair ...





... umbuzo wami ukuthi ngifisa ukukwazi ... [Akuzwakali.] ... lolu daba.





The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson ...





UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMAPHOYISA: Sihlalo uMnyango wenza yonke imizamo ukuthi okokuqala ube uMnyango ovulekile.






We try by all means to be transparent and to put things ... [Inaudible.] ... the situation, if the situation is misrepresented. We agree that on both there will be a situation where there is further explanation so that we cut off on what we think and what we term propaganda as a department.



Question 35:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the enlistment of new recruits in the SA Police Service is governed by Regulation 11 of the SA Police Service, SAPS, Employment Regulation, which prescribes, amongst others, that the applicant must have no previous criminal conviction, and such person will allow his/her fingerprints to be taken and allow background and screening to be made.



The recruitment and selection strategy further outlines the following background screening processes which are currently being conducted. These processes would be fingerprint ... [Inaudible.] ... by criminal record ... screening by global access control systems, crime intelligence security screening, verification of qualifications and reference checking.



So, these are the steps followed to make sure of people who are recruited. Thank you very much, Chair.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thanks very much, Deputy Chair. I am standing on behalf of hon Mfayela who reported to me about his frustration regarding the connection of where he is located. Thank you, Deputy Chair. It was in the interest of the House to get the response from the Minister on this important question by hon Mfayela. Minister, thanks for shading light on ... [Inaudible.] ...whether the impact of the assessment of the new basic learning training of the new programme to assist in our national commitment to build a professional and disciplined police service have been made.

Thank you, Chair and Minister.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, Chairperson, there is an ongoing assessment on the curriculum, the behaviour, the level of the psychometric tests that we do and the recruitment systems themselves. Not that it is only that, but also in the improvement of the academic qualifications of the members of the SA Police Service.



Chairperson, you will know that a decision was taken in around 2010 to say that you will only join as a member of the SA Police Service if you have matriculated. But we have also gone another away as organisation and give more and more bursaries. There are high qualifications in this organisation. Remember, the head of the Hawks is a doctor of law; he is an advocate. So, there are many of them who have improved. Not just to improve the proportion, but also to ... [Inaudible... Yes, we are working very hard to make the SA Police Service a professional organisation of excellence.



Mr D R RYDER: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Chairperson, before I ask my follow-up question, we cannot work out what you are eating, and I want to ask you if you can settle a bit for us. We cannot make up why you are waving your hand.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I got burnt. I was making


fire and I burnt that’s why I am doing this.



Mr D R RYDER: Mr Minister, I just want to highlight this. I don’t think the problem is the taking in doggy of characters or that when you recruit they are misguided. Rather it seems



it is most impossible to get rid of the crooks and criminal when say they are inside the SA Police Service. It appears that after they are overworked and underfunded ... [Inaudible.] ...are new recruits sensitising? Guidance from you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think hon Ryder has finished now, Minister.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, he has finished, but he broke


somewhere. I didn’t really comprehend the question very well.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder ... [Sound went off.] Can you summarise your question? It seems as we have lost him. Let’s go to hon Shaikh, and we will come back to him.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Thank you Minister for your response and the indication that there are regulations and strategies for recruitment which outline...[Inaudible.] ... But Minister, my question is, is there a policy to continuously screen and review the criminal



status of the members of the SA Police Service? If no, why not, and if yes, tell us the details. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, there is a continuous screening. Within the SA Police Service, we have the anticorruption committee, ACC, that is within the SA Police Service. That is precisely the inspectorate. Maybe I can share with the members that we want to improve in this anticorruption committee. It is made out of the SA Police. But we have recently agreed that we need highly placed members of the society to come and join that committee. People like Bishop Makgoba and people like Rev Mkhatshwa have been approached to join the anticorruption committee so that it is not ourselves checking our own members, but we also have the element of highly respected people joining us. So, we keep on improving and say let’s find the way of finding the crooks and flush them away from the organisation. Thanks.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder! If he is not there, then, we take hon Shackleton. Hon Shackleton, you may!



Mr M S SHACKLETON: I am on Question 14, Chairperson?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, you are not in this one?



Mr M S SHACKLETON: No, I am on a follow-up question.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No! I am asking, are you not in this one?



Mr M S SHACKLETON: No, I am on a follow-up question.



Question 14:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: The number of contravening lockdown regulations since the declaration of the National State of Disaster up until 19 June 2020 is reflected per province in the table below: Eastern Cape, the number of total persons charged was 27 081; total persons who paid admission of guilt was 1 300 ... [Inaudible.] ... appear before court or pay admission of guilt is 21 000.



Deputy Chairperson, this is the category under which I will be calling figures: Free State, category one would be 38 907





Minister, if it is going to exceed five minutes, can we request that the list be submitted to the NCOP, please?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, I can stop the figures and then go to the narrative below that of ... let me give the total of these numbers. People that have been arrested since then were 207. Total persons who paid admissions to guilt were

22 815 and outstanding to court and further fines were 599 677.



At the onset of the lockdown level five, compliance level improved as the regulations were enforced. However, contraventions of the regulation were still high.



Increased law enforcement visibility and ... [Inaudible.] ... authority or of the state.



The last answer on this one is that compliance with regulation deteriorated during level three, and noncompliance with regulations that are not criminalised, such as the wearing of masks and social distancing increased. The reinstatement of the sale of liquor even though criminalised



from Friday to Sunday has been found to contribute to the noncompliance due to the behavioural changes, when has been a marked increase in levels of crime during lockdown level three in comparison with the level four in five. Thanks, Deputy Chairperson.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, hon Minister for that response, we look forward to the provincial breakdown you wanted to give us but you’ll provide us with the document. Minister, my question is: What lessons can the country learn from the national lockdown in relation to improved policing and the fight against crime?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, there are quiet several lessons that we have. Firstly, one lesson that we can't undermine is the visibility of the law enforcement agencies out there. At the present moment, as the SA Police Service, we are already planning what we will be policing after lockdown which we have never seen. Few police should be at the police station and more police should be out there on the street.



Secondly, lesson that was learned hon Deputy Chair, is the relationship between the law enforcement agencies, SA Police Service this time and the communities; you’ll be surprised, hon Deputy Chair, how much information that was supplied by the ordinary members of the community of the people that were breaking these regulations. We did not really need to go out sometimes check on them. But the information was just coming in, including today. We want to keep that kind of relationship.



Thirdly, is that the police themselves, though there are issues of with brutality and all that, they were put on the test to learn how to treat and work with communities, and must do so in big scale. I think those are few lessons were learned. Those are few lessons that we learned. Those are few lessons that we will take forward to make sure that policing improves.



Mr SHAKLETON (Special delegate): Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister of Police, many South Africans were fined or were arrested for contravening sections of the regulations for which there was no penalty prepared in the regulations, which amounts to wrongful arrest



or prosecution. There was even an SMS going around with advice to a general, but these individuals should be arrested or fined. I would have loved to ask a question on how many people were arrested or charges withdrawn. I know you won’t have the statistics at the tip of your fingers. I would rather ask: Who will be taking responsibility for wrongful arrests due to poor communication within the SAPS? Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, well, the wrongful arrest can only be determined and decided by the court. It cannot just be made. The hon member must be reminded that we have been taken to court on many of these things, and the court has found that there was no ... [Inaudible.] ... on someone famous one was the question of the receipt on the cigarette issue. We were taken to court on that one and when we were ready for the court, the person that took us to court withdrew. I will simply say that the determination of the wrongful arrest will be made by the court and we will take it from there. Thank you.



Mr W A S UACAMP: We are well aware of the fact that the sale of cigarettes and other tobacco products have been banned



during this lockdown. How many people have been arrested for either selling or buying cigarettes during lockdown? And more importantly, will these arrests lead to these people having criminal records to their names just because they bought cigarettes in order to satisfy their dependence on nicotine? If so, do you honestly think, hon Minister, that it is fair for a citizen to receive a criminal record which will have a long-lasting negative effect on his life, and which might even be prevent such a person from obtaining a job and just earning a living, just because he bought cigarettes?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, I thought the hon member will remind us that the court of law has confirmed that you cannot buy cigarettes. It is illegal. It is not just the regulations, not just the Minister of Police, but a full bench of the senior courts in the Republic of South Africa.

If then the court confirms that it is wrong to have cigarettes, and you go buy them, that is committing crime. So, it must be a kind of a criminal record. You did it knowing very well that you are not supposed to do it. But, besides that, I agree with the hon member that some of these ordinary South Africans ... [Inaudible.] ... have to look to it that they cannot ... [Inaudible.] ... that the Minister of



Justice has come to the police and looked at those cases as to how bad they really were so that they do not give South Africans criminal records. But there were those that were really serious criminals. We found a lot of them transporting cigarettes that were illegal, underground cigarettes and those who are working for organised cartels. Those will have to stay with their criminal record. But on the other ones, definitely the Minister of Justice is looking at that.




Thank you.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, I am happy that the Minister is highlighting a good working relations that they enjoyed as security agencies with our entities. I would like to know from the Minister whether they have a programme in place to sustain such good work and relationships with communities, because that can produce very good results?

Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, you’ll remember that ... by the way, it’s the law in the Republic of South Africa and in the SA Police Service as an organisation must



work with communities through the community police forums. But, as we say, we need to go the extra mile to make sure that we do work with the with the members of the community.



As I have said, this new relationship that was created out of COVID-19; work with the communities will be sustained. But also the working formally with the community police forums will be improved as you know that at the present moment the community police forums will be removed under the clause of the management of the police and be given to the hands of the MECs so that they can work together, to be able to work and oversee the activities of the police. But also, we must be reminded that we have the secretariat whose job is to oversee the police, but also to improve relationships between the police and the communities. We are activating all elements that will be utilised to improve ... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you very much.



Question 41:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: An extension of 21 days is requested on this question, Chair. An extension of 21 days is requested for the submission of this reply as information needs to be drawn from a large system and verified against other systems



and manual database. The information that is requested comes from the year 2000, so it is quite an elaborate job to find the information since 2000 coming up here. So we are requesting to be given more time so that we are able to start from 2000 coming up. Thanks, Chair.



Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, we will be awaiting the Minister’s written response on that. Hon Minister, we have it in good authority that there might be a direct link between individuals registering their firearms with the South African Police Service, SAPS, and farm murders taking place. Has this link ever been investigated? If not, would you give a commitment here today to embark on such an investigation if it would contribute towards reducing farm murders? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the reduction of murder at any part of South Africa is primary work of the South African Police as we are instructed by the Constitution to seek to combat, prevent, investigate and enforce the law. We will do that with all sections of all the South African society. But indeed, there are other extra things we take to work with other sectors in South Africa. We are working with the farmers through the Farm Safety Plan as we have launched



it in Limpopo and we are trying to expand that. Working together on that will also be investigating and examining all other elements including what the hon member has raised if there is a causation of the injury and killing of farmers or any other section of South African society. Indeed, we will investigate that but we work well with the farmers at the present moment. Thanks.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Minister, is there any data available with regards to weapons handed in during the amnesty that gets stolen and are used in crimes and particularly farm murders? If not, will this be investigated?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, all firearms that are handed back to the South African police go for Integrated Ballistics Identification System, IBIS, which means they are checked if they have been used and in what kind of crime they have been used and whatever format they have been used.



Yes, there are minus or plus 10 firearms already that have been found to have been used in committing crime and that continues. It is obvious ... That’s why people that are surrendering their firearms don’t have drop boxes where they



come and drop. We want your name and information so that it is checked and we are able to follow you if needs be. There are people that we are following up because we have found that their firearms have been illegally used.



Mr S F Du TOIT: Hon Minister, the subject is stolen firearms. I want to know if you could say how many firearms used in criminal activities originally belonged to the South African Police Service or were initially handed in through the firearm amnesty process? Thank you, Chair.





the question is in line with what has been asked, it seems to be quite something of a new question ... [Inaudible.]



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, for now we have requested an extension on the firearm amnesty so it is still on the roll. We have not categorised firearms to check where they come from. At the end we will give that statistics. At the present moment we just count firearms as they are.




Question 1:



The MINISTER OF POLICE: In terms of government processes budget submissions and request pertaining budget allocations need to be submitted through the official MTEF, Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, which is the process that is annually facilitated by the National Treasury. The request for the additional funding for the Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigation, DPCI, which is known as the Hawks as we felt to, form part of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, submissions from the Saps during the ... [Inaudible] ...

Medium-Term Expenditure Framework budget processes. ...


[Inaudible] 2018.



The matter was discussed at the technical group in functional group meeting held in National Treasury after which other relevant government structures considered the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework allocation to departments. The SA Police Service did not receive any additional funding pertaining the request for the 2019-2020 financial year. The allocation letter from the National Treasury at the time did not communicate unsuccessful requests. However, during the 2020 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework budget processes, some funding had been prioritized towards the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation to strengthen the capacity to



deal with the backlog. This funding is anticipated to become available from 2020-2021 financial year. The SA Police Service has proved that the request from the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation was submitted to National Treasury during the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework process as prescribed. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Visser, Is there a follow up from your side? Hon Visser?



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, there is no follow-up from the hon Visser.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much and I don’t see any indication of any other. So, let’s go to question 2 asked by hon Bara.



Question 2:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Chair. General J K Phahlane of Saps corruption and money laundering allegation, it is alleged that in 2011 and 2012, general Phahlane through his corrupt relationship with the service provider criminalistic and the criminal tech financed his house at a



sable. The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, investigation was able to uncover a further corrupt relationship with another service provider FDA, forensic data analyst, owned by Mr Keith Keating. The investigation has detected possible crimes of corruption fraud and money laundering facilitated by the car dealer Mr Durandt Snyman personal case number 146/5/27.



Chairperson, it might be a very long read, this one, what I can do, if I can request permission from you, is to give the names of those generals that have been charged and where are we; the first one … [Inaudible] … the second one is general Shezi, the offence is corruption, and the case is in court as we speak, the third one is general Nemutanzhela, the allegation is corruption, the status of the case docket referred to the NPA, National Prosecuting Authority on 01 July for further investigation and the fourth one is general Makebe, the allegation is defeating the end of justice and the matter has been referred to the NPA, the fifth one is general Mabula, the allegation of the offence is murder, torture and defeating the end of justice,; the status of the case is that it has been referred to the NPA, the sixth one



is general ... [Inaudible] ... and the status case docket has been referred to the NPA in July for further investigation.



The seventh one is general Mpembe; in the North West whose matter is in court, the eighth one is general Mokwena, who has left the organization but by the time he left, the matter was referred to the NPA, but he is arrested as we speak now with the other eight senior officers. The ninth one is general Nqcobo, the status of the case is that the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, is still dealing with the matter and the docket was referred to NPA on 01 July for further investigation. The tenth one is general Motsoenyane for defeating the end of justice, the case docket has been referred to the NPA for further investigations on 01 July and we are waiting for that. So, those are the ten generals, their offences and the status of their cases.



Ms C LABSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, hon Bara does not have a follow up question. Thank you.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you, hon Chair. The confidence of the public in the top echelons of the crime fighting institution is very important. When such issues around investigations is



raised around the generals many people are beginning to ask, where are these generals located? Is it a general problem across all the nine provinces or is it only located at the head office? So, if the general can just elaborate in terms of what is the nature of the offences and of where they are located or it is a general problem. Thank you, Minister.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Sorry, someone muted me. Over to you, hon Minister.



The MINSTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Chairperson. I thought you were alone there. So, most of these generals, I guess nine or ten of them would be located or are located in the national office, in the headquarters of the police. Most of these offences are more on the supply chain issues, where they either get corrupted with these service providers themselves. About a month ago, we arrested eight of our members, senior brigadiers and one general. They were not just arrested alone, they were arrested with the directors of companies that are service providers and all that. So, most of them are not from provinces except for general Mpembe, who is not arrested for corruption but was arrested for Marikana situation. So, it is unfortunate that I would concede with



ease to say it looks like this corruption is more in the nest of headquarters rather than in provinces. Thank you very much.



Question 3:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: On 24 February 2020, the deoxyribonucleic acid, which is a DNA backlog per province was as follows: category and turnaround time, so, in Gauteng there was 20 491 that would be a routine DNA, the intelligence would be 15 000 and the none routine would be zero, unassigned there would be 3 474. So, the total would be

20 690. Chairperson, I will try to just read the total so that we save time. Gauteng will be 2 690, Kwa-Zulu Natal will be zero, Eastern Cape will be 482, the Western Cape will be

13 499, and the total would be 34 621. The extra backlog as of February 2020 was 34 621 case entries. Please note that the backlog is within the stipulated minimum 10% of the registered exhibits not exceeding the specified timeframes for each category of the exhibits as per the Saps annual performance plan, APP, 2019-2020.



The actual number of DNA cases on hand is 45 519. The actual reference in the ... [Inaudible] ... is 26 000 samples.



Targets for the turnaround times are as follows; ... [Inaudible] ... of routine cases must be finalized within 35 calendar days, 70% of none routine cases must be finalized within 113 days, 80% DNA justification cases must be finalized within 90 calendar days.



The interventions to reduce the backlog are as follows; the intervention in bid specification have been submitted to SCM, supply chain management, for bidding process to be initiated. Bid specifications has been summited for the bidding process to be initiated. The maintenance contract was put in place to promptly and rest breakdown upgrade of the old air conditioning system to a new technology. Thank you, Chairperson.



Question 6:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: The funding for internal audit functions has always been prioritised within the allocated budget in an effort for strengthening internal controls of the department. The prioritised areas are mainly in travel and accommodation for nine provincial audits as well as training and development of current staff members. The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, internal audit



subprogram consists of eight members including the head of the unit and edition three new members with expertise in critical areas such as information system and financial origin are still required in order to address the identified skills shortage. The department is considering various available options to address the identified skills gaps.

Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Mr I M SILEKU: Thank you very much, ... [Inaudible] ... for the reply. Can the Minister, please, give us time frames as to when they can give us the outcome of this process that the department has engaged in, making sure that their department is fully capacitated and is funded in making sure that they fulfil their responsibility. Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, Chairperson, within all our powers especially around the finances as the first question in terms of the funding of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate as one of the serious shortcomings and challenges, we will be working on that and we will prioritise the personnel as we get some finances to assist that Independent Police Investigative Directorate is fully capacitated. It is important that the Independent Police



Investigative Directorate is fully capacitated and we will work hard towards that. Thank you very much.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you, hon Chair. I am hearing the Minister saying that they are in a process of starting to recruit the skills that necessary for the section. What I would like to know is if they have already advertised for the post, or else, they are in a process of also head hunting for those that they are having those skills that are necessary for the unit in the department? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, it will be very fair for the Independent Police Investigative Directorate that we work hard to firstly get the permanent head of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate because that is a person that is better placed to understand the shortage and what skills do they want there. Indeed, we believe that will that will happen in the shortest possible time from now and after that, those prioritised positions and skills that are regarded as shortage in this organization will be fulfilled.



We believe that the people that are placed better to lead that organisation rather than pushing from outside with the



less understanding of organization which might not give us a better outcome. We will push those that will be given the responsibility to make sure that the organization ... yes, at the present moment there are positions that are advertised but I think the critical ones will have to be pushed from the higher level of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. Thank you.



Question 7:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, has during the period from 26 to

31 March 2020, received and registered 23 cases relating to corruption in terms of section 28(1)(g) of the IPID Act. There were arrests made in three of the Gauteng cases reported in Arcacia, Soshanguve and Tembisa areas. Investigations on the other cases are the progress at various stages.



With regard to the other reported cases, the witnesses’ statements were obtained. However, other aspects of the investigations still need to be done, such as the identity parade, obtaining the warrant statement and technical reports and, that has been a challenge during the period of lockdown.



Of the 23 cases reported, the majority were in Gauteng with 14, followed by KwaZulu-Natal with five, Free State, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Northern Cape reported one each. Although the majority of the cases occurred in the Gauteng province, the cases were scattered in various provincial prisons. Thank you very much Chairperson.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Minister, this question was asked after few incidents were brought to my attention and I encouraged the people who complained about it to lodge complaints at IPID. I just want your take on this. My province where I come from, the Free State, and I also heard of cases in the Eastern Cape, specifically at the roadblocks, not on the main roads but the quieter roads where these cases happened.



Did you as the Minister pick up on the tendencies of such bribes being solicited by police members during lockdown? And, apart from the IPID investigations, what was done about this? Thank you very much, Minister.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the member is correct. IPID is mandated to investigate SA Police Service



metro, but around municipalities, including the Western Cape, they have a lot of people called enforcement that falls under this Ombudsman of IPID.



There was one incident that was highly publicised and it was at KwaDukuza, Stanger, where law enforcements chased a young boy because he was on the gate. So, those kind of law enforcements don’t fall under the Ombudsman of IPID. So it might happen that these activities are done by people who are not SA Police Service or metro police.



Having said so, we are working hard on the IPID Act so that all enforcement agencies that are armed must fall under IPID so that we have access to them. It might happen that they are not SA Police Service as it happened at Stanger and in Cape Town and, they may not be metro police per say. We will have to work with those municipalities to give us those outcomes. Thank you very much.



Mr E J NJANDU: Thank you, Deputy Chair and good afternoon hon Minister. Hon Minister, the Ethics Institute of South Africa

... [Inaudible.] ... in South Africa, are as a result of people paying to get out of the consequence of traffic



offences and these cases have increased every year. What measures are in place to work with the traffic department and municipalities in addressing the issue of bribery relating to traffic offences? Thank you very much, hon Minister.





[Inaudible.] ... you will respond that way, that there is a question that is coming from municipalities



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Again, let me repeat. The SA Police Service members and the metro members are the only formation that falls under IPID. The Provincial Traffic Inspectorate, including the National Traffic Inspectorate, don’t fall under IPID. It’s exactly what we are trying to correct by saying that all of them must fall under IPID.



For now, it is very difficult to pursue any form of clearance that has been caused by road inspectorate of provinces and national one, and those that are called enforcement like small municipalities who have their small enforcement around, like Cape Town that has a smaller metro but very big enforcement that does not fall under IPID. So, the work of amending the IPID Act will put that and will help us to work



on that. Now, we depend on the ... [Inaudible.] ... between the police and those formations. The IPID ... [Inaudible.]

... is easily told that, look, this is not your jurisdiction. That is what we wanted to fix.



Question 8:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, a total of R154 cases were referred to the Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigations, which is the Hawks, from 26 March 2020 to

27 May 2020. A total R225 cases were referred to ... [Inaudible.] ... for the same period in 2018. A total R228 cases were referred to the Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigations, DPCI, for the same period in 2019. The breakdown of the budget for the cyber and commercial crimes unit are as follows: In 2018-19 financial year, cybercrime is R500 000 and commercial crime is R634 745. In 2019-20 financial year, cybercrime is R1,8 million and commercial crime is R522 99. In 2020-21 financial year, cybercrime is R1,6 million and commercial crime is R917 106.



The DPCI is currently busy with the recruitment process to capacitate all the units, including cybercrime and serious commercial crime investigating units, which deals with



cybercrimes and related criminal activities. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Chairperson, let me start with a comment. That is, Minister, the last one, two, three, four, five and six questions were written questions transferred, that were not responded to within their timeframes. Now, you are usually fairly good with this. I would like to agree with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, please don’t ... [Interjections.]



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Out of order! Please don’t take a chance. That’s out of order, Deputy House Chair. The questions before the House are for the Minister of Police and not Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you Deputy Chair, we know where the


Chief Whip’s loyalty lie.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you use the time at hand please. You have only half a minute left for your question.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, Deputy Chair. So please Minister respond to the questions in future. Minister, this unit indicated that it needs R20 million to facilitate things but the figures you mentioned don’t reach over R1,6 million.



This unit is tasked with investigating crimes that are committed electronically in terms of fraud and stealing the money of small businesses that needs the money especially now during the Covid-19 period.



Firstly, where are you going to find the funds to properly capacitate this unit in the future? Secondly, don’t you think it’s a bit hypocritical that you are sitting here after you have asked them to prioritise investigations ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... corruption against small businesses are prioritised instead of your own business.

Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don’t know what the


question is but hon Minister I hope you heard.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: If you gave me more time Deputy Chair.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I can’t ... [Inaudible.]


... question out of selection. To me it is just one long lecture and I really don’t know if I understand the question. All I can say is that all of us, including this Minister, would like to get proper finances from Treasury to fund all our programmes including this one.



Beyond this, I don’t know where to get money if I can’t get it from Treasury and I can’t rob a bank or go for ... [Inaudible.] ... to fund this programmes. But we will keep on, like the question was asked about the Medium -Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, we will keep on knocking on the door of Treasury with the full understanding that at the present moment the fiscus is really strained. Thank. Chair, I heard the other lecture and I would ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, thank you very much.



Question 9:


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the question that one did not know is whether this is a general population of the of the society. That figure, nationally, we don’t have



but we do have the figure of the SA Police Service. Unfortunately, with people that have committed suicide in the SA Police Service, most of them do not die alone. It will be the male police. Up to this point, we have five. They usually would shoot their partners, as they did at Empangeni, as they did at Mpumalanga, that they shoot partners, they shoot their in-laws and shoot themselves.



So we are looking around in the country at the present moment. On the SA Police Service that would be five. However, on the general population, definitely not all of them come to the police. Others will check that information with the department of Health and other departments. Thank you very much, Chairperson.





very much, hon Minister. Let me just for the record ask the hon Boshoff whether she has got a follow-up question.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: No! Thank you, Chair.





question? No question?



Ms H S BOSHOFF: What? A question?





very much, hon Boshoff. Let us just now express our appreciation to the hon Minister. Minister, thank you very much. You responded very well - very elaborate. I think in future, let the people respond to the written questions, otherwise they will make you take so much time here. Thank you very much: We appreciate! Members, we are going to give you just a five-minutes body break, and then we will come back for the next Minister. Thank you.



The Council suspended at 15:37.




Cluster 1B



Question 10:



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, the allegations of corruption by a particular union was referred by me with to the public service commission upon



receiving it. I did not only receive this allegation from the union, but I also received it from an individual member of the same union, the member who was making the allegations.

The Public Service Commission did the investigation, and the findings were finalised and even submit the I submitted a copy to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs. The findings were that there was no evidence of corruption committed by the acting Chief Executive Officer, CEO, of the government printing works. But, I must also mention that there was another complain, apart from this one, from a member of the union and the union itself. A few weeks after that, the Chairperson of the portfolio committee received a letter which was supposed to be directed to me, but he received it even before I received it, where unknown whistle blower which up to today we are unable to identify made very, very serious allegations against the acting CEO and against myself. He was accusing me of intending to appoint the CEO, even when I know she is corrupt and when a corruption allegation has been sent to me I did nothing about it. When they said so, I had already sent you to the Public Service Commission, but the complaint was that I did nothing about it.



The other complain which he forwarded, was that the CEO, doesn’t have qualifications to do the work as a CEO of the government printing works. The other ... [Inaudible.] ... that she does not have experience. The other was that she undertook a trip to... she convinced me rather to approve a trip to France in which she travelled business class at the government expense with friends of hers. That trip was to Paris, and she said she went with friends.



And the other allegation was that the morale at the Public Printing Works is down and the entity is no longer performing. And then the last two, which were even more serious, was that the writer said he has got information, he does not say there is an allegation. He has got information that I am being lobbied strongly to appoint this Acting CEO, am lobbied by members of the ANC, I am lobbied by Members of Executive Council, MECs, from Gauteng, I am lobbied by Director Generals, DGs in government and I’m lobbied by my best friends who is the acting DG of Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA.



This last one puzzled me because, I was not aware that, that I have got a best friend in CoGTA. So I was very curious to



find out who is this best friend of mine, and I found that is actually the husband of this lady, who is the acting CEO. I was completely surprised why he is now my friend, up to today I can't point it, because I have never met him.





Minister, you must remember you don’t have a lot of time, so let’s come to the facts.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, yes, no, no I am actually about to finish. Then the last allegation was that I do have business links with this Acting CEO, that’s why I want to appoint her. So, as I said, the first allegation about corruption, the Public Service Commission dismissed it.



The second one, the portfolio committee itself went to the government printing works, the called all the unions which operate, it’s the National Education, Health and Allied Workers’ Union, NEHAWU, there is no how and Public Servants Association of South Africa, PSA. They asked them to make their presentation and they asked the Acting CEO and staff to make presentations.



They were also asked me to make presentations, and this is the conclusion the arrived at. Firstly, on the issue of qualification, the Acting CEO has got a Master’s degree and three postgraduate qualifications. On the issue of experience in terms of the Department of Public Service Administration, you need 8-10 years’ experience in the public service, five of which must be in senior management. She has done to 26 years in the public service and 16 years in senior management.



On the trip to France were able to provide tickets of the trip because I approved that trip, for specific people’s names and the amount of money they are going to spend. And plane tickets were forwarded.



On the issue of morale, portfolio committee found that actually the entity increased its revenue by six percent. It improved, what you call revenue collection or its performance by six percent, unlike many other government entities.

Obviously, on the issue of me being lobbied by ANC DGs and all that, and the issue of business, we have referred this the hawks, that they must investigate and bring all these things to an end. That is what happened at Government



Printing Works and the portfolio committee issued a statement to respond to these issues after division. The statement is available; I am sure members can get a copy of that that statement.





hon Minister, at least you didn’t take so much time than I


thought. Thank you very much.



Ms S SHAIKH: Chairperson, thank hon Minister, for the comprehensive response in that you refer matters to relevant credible institutions, business allegation. It’s good to hear

... [Inaudible.] ... on the matter ... [Inaudible.] ... Government Printing Works, government services in its efficiency is important. Im covered by the Minister’s response when it comes ... [Inaudible.] Thanks.





since this is the comment, we will take next question from the hon Nhanha.



Mr M NHANHA: Deputy Chairperson, minister I hear you say the Public Service Commission found no basis on the allegations



of corruption against the Acting CEO. But, Minister, the same Public Service Commission recommended that there should be corrective action that must be taken in relation to noncompliance, with supply chain management, and the commission singled out the same Acting CEO, the general manager of strategic management, the accounting officer in the former acting Chief Financial Officer, CFO. Can the Minister elaborate how far are these processes, and when and when will they be concluded? And Minister, this relates to the facilitator that was appointed by the Government Printing Works. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, hon Nhanha, the complaint of corruption ... [Inaudible.] ... about the appointment of the facilitator and I I am saying to you that matter was settled by the Public Service Commission. We said they had no evidence of corruption. The other issue you are mentioning, which was not in the allegations it’s not in my letter. My letter was about corruption, because that was the allegation that there has been corruption. The person who wrote the letter to me, even said he has recorded this corruption on his cell phone. But when the Public Service



Commission, when they said the cell phone fell into water. Those are some of their findings.



Now, the issue of irregularities with the supply chain, that there must be corrective action. I referred that matter, I told the portfolio committee about it. I referred it for legal advice on exactly what does it mean and how to do it. So I am waiting for that legal advice and I will definitely carry it on. Thank you very much.



Mr T APLENI: Chairperson, Minister, there seem to be a very thin line between what I would call the members of the party, which is governing and its alliance partners. There seem to be a confusion between ... [Interjection.]





you can mute please. Thank you, you can continue hon Apleni.



Mr T APLENI: I just want to know, Minister, if there is any clear policy that distinguishes between the government and the political organisation, which is in government and its alliance partners, because most of the allegations that seem to become and for coming forth, you would find that even



people who are outside government, belonging to particular unions will be having hands in the governance matters.



So, I would like to know if there is any policy that is guiding that distinguishes between governance and the party? Thank you.





minister, since is not directly linked to this thing, it’s just a peripheral matter. You can respond or you can choose not to respond. Over to you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The government is government, and the ruling party is the ruling party, is different from government. The allegations that these hon man, I mean not honourable because I do not even know who he is, that this particular person made about being lobbied by ANC DGs, etcetera. The Chairperson of the portfolio committee, wrote, to the same email asking for more details; that give us the names of these people. Give us more details because we need to investigate. The Chairperson of the portfolio committee got an answer which said look, I gave you a problem, go and



investigate, do not ask me any further question, investigate


and that’s where Chairperson got stuck. Thank you.



Mr E J NJANDU: Deputy Chair, good afternoon hon Minister, thank you very much for the comprehensive response, sir, that the portfolio committee did a thorough follow up on the matter and found no substance to the allegations. Government Printing Works is a very important instrument for government services. Thank you very much, hon Minister.





just a comment. So we will continue and we will go over to question number eight asked by the Minister.



Question 38:


The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chairperson, this issue indeed is very important and very intriguing. Our systems are always down and we are not able to service our communities in a manner in which we do. Early this year in March, just before the advent of COVID, our systems were down. We put up together a team of experts who owned the system that we are using, IBM, State Information Technology Agency, Sita, the SA Revenue Service, Sars, a



company called EOH, Department of Home Affairs. At the headquarters of Sita in Centurion, we put them there for two weeks to find out why our systems are down. They said they found the malware, a virus that was generating its own traffic as people apply. The other twist, our systems are kicked out and there is an outage. They’ve solved that one. Now, it has started all over again. What we are doing now is what we call a live capture - that means the systems with an automatic or live capture system, which is no longer working on manual, where you apply for your Identity Document, ID or your licence – all those systems are not web-based. They’ve got the server in each and every office. When the system goes down, our people must go physically into that office to deal with the server. We are now changing them to make them web- based so that they can be changed centrally, whether the office is in Mthata, Polokwane, Mpumalanga or wherever people do not have to go directly to the office. It can be changed and Sita to redesign our network architecture because at the moment we don’t have dual systems. Meaning we are using architecture from one network, if it is down, then it’s down. So, we want to have two so that when one system is down, the other one can be up. That’s exactly what we are trying to do. Thank you very much.





Mnr I M SILEKU: Goeiemiddag en dankie Adjunkvoorsitter ...





... mandibulise Mphathiswa.





The problem with system interruptions and the system being offline all the time, seems to have started with a new service provider. Are there any other service providers other than Sita that the department could use for its set of infrastructure? And in light of the problems that the department is currently facing, is this currently being considered? Thank you very much, Chair.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, we are not using our system. When you apply for an ID or passport, etc our hardware comes mostly from IBM. We have got systems provided by Sita, the system provided by Sars and system provided by EOH, which the National Assembly during the portfolio committees dealt with the matter, because there have been problems with this one. We are exchanging lawyer’s letters about what to do. There is a problem with EOH but there is no



problem with the other service providers. As I said, we put them together at Centurion the headquarters of Sita, to try and find out these problems. They never send ordinary people, they have sent chief executive officers, CEOs, of all these companies, and we sent the Deputy Director-General, DDG, who is in charge, to try and find out what the problems with our system are. As I am telling you, our solution now, we think with the advice of expert is: firstly, that in the live capture, let it be web-based, not office based as it was happening in each of our offices around the country.

Secondly, that we have got dual links so that we have got a system from Telkom. Another standby system from Vodacom so that if Telkom goes down, the office can switch immediately to Vodacom - I am just giving an example. What we are unable to do, Chairperson, ... it’s power outages, because our systems are also low and will also go down. The cables that are being stolen, are not ours. They belong to network companies. At the moment, it’s a little bit better in cities. They are now using different cables than the ones that are being stolen. Otherwise, that’s where we are at the moment.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much, Chair, I am happy that the Minister is saying they are working very hard in terms of



addressing the issue of redesigning the system so that they address the issue of network outages. What I would like to know is that this redesigning of the system, is it also going to include the mobile offices that they are using to rural areas, because also those mobile offices that they have, which they use in rural areas do experience outages? So, I would like to know whether this redesigning will also help the rural people in terms of not experiencing outages when they are there to be captured in the system? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, if you may bear with me. There is a question about mobiles here, which I am going to answer and I am not sure whether I must give the answer now. It’s coming.





can respond on the indulgence of hon Ncitha. But I am sure she understands you will give a comprehensive response to that one.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, and Minister. The majority of people who are suffering most are



the people who are living in rural areas, especially in Home Affairs offices, the systems there are always down. So, while you are busy fixing the systems, what other methods are you using to assist the communities out there? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Well, when the system is down in one office, we refer them to the nearest available office. But, as I said, I am going to answer the question on mobiles and will also try to use mobiles in areas where the system is down. Thank you.



Ms M N GILLION: Deputy Chairperson, let me also welcome the brief response from the Minister. I just got one question for the Minister. The question is as follows: Is there any plan in place to deal with problems caused by cable theft and the crashing of service?



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I thought, I have already said something about this. The cables that are being stolen belong to network companies, and we reported the matter to the police. It’s very difficult for Home Affairs to deal with the matter. That is why I said the only salvation, the only answer is that we realise that some networks have



moved to fibre optic, which is not stolen, and in those cities where they have moved fibre optic is much better. But in the areas where there are still cables and there can be stolen, it is still a perpetual struggle - unfortunately, Chairperson.



Question 24:


The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, the department on this matter, Chairperson, has put notices on its website, notifying all service providers of the scam where persons purport to be representing the department when they are not. The notice informs service providers to act with caution and provide the contact details of departmental officials that could be contacted if any service provider is confronted with this scam or is suspicious of the scam. So, they have been provided with numbers as to who they must contact in the department service.



Providers are encouraged to report any fraudulent activity to the SA Police Service, the SAPS, for criminal investigation. Furthermore, the department has tried to trace some of these letters to the email addresses and telephone numbers provided by these scammers, but to no avail. As in most cases, the



letters are sent from internet cafés. So when we tried to trace them, we end up being in the internet café. We don’t know where else to go to. When the listed telephone numbers are also dialled, the responses indicate that such numbers do not exist. So, it is truly a scam. What must happen is that people who are receiving services be just on the lookout, work with us and the police to uproot the scammers. Thank you very much, hon Dodovu.



UNIDETIFIED MEMBER: Deputy Chair, you can move on. The member has been disconnected.



Mr M NHANHA: Thanks once again Deputy Chair. Minister, a while ago, your department established a counter corruption and security services branch. As, as you will know, its primary mandate is to prevent and combat fraud and corruption as well as to promote organisational integrity within your department. My question is: Minister, did all the members of the Security Services branch got through the vetting process? And secondly, what has been the success of the branch since it was established? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, Chairperson, I am happy that you corrected it. It is not a unit, is actually a branch, meaning it is headed by a DDG. Yes, we are aware that is government policy that people get vetted. But, I haven’t checked whether the State Security has finalised vetting everybody, because most of the time when people get appointed

– it says subject to vetting by the State Security. Sometimes it does take a long time. At the present moment, this unit had the person who was heading it and he left. I mean the branch, not the unit.



There is a vacancy which we are trying our best to fill in.



Yes, there has been some degree of success. Quite a number of people have been charged and fired. The criminal issues referred to the hawks for them to be arrested, wherever they were found. But, as we are saying, this particular scam, which we are talking about is a very complex one. Basically, they are not scamming the department. They are scamming members of the public who are unsuspecting. They say, look, I can help you get your documents very fast with the department. I work with the department, give me so much money and I will make sure that you get your documents. By the time



we discover it, the scammer has disappeared and the poor person got wrong documents or has no documents at all. So, the difficulty of these one, hon Nhanha, is that these members of the public were scammed in the name of the department rather than the department itself being scammed.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Hon Chair, is hon Dodovu here? It was my question and I thought I was going to make a follow up. I battle to connect here, if possible, hon Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S S Lucas): Can we just give hon Carrim? Hon Dodovu, will give you.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Alright. Chairperson, I am fine to withdraw if


it means that Mr Dodovu won’t have a chance to speak.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S S Lucas): No, Mr Dodovu is supposed to speak because he is the fourth speaker. You can speak.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Okay, I just want to ask the Minister what his response to the view that COVID-19 circumstances being what they are, more and more members in the public will engage



with the department and the government as a whole on line. So the vulnerability of both on the one hand at public, and the other hand at the government departments, is greater now than ever before to scammer. In this circumstances, has the department and the Minister given concerted attention to what additional measures to reduce the prospects of scamming need to be introduced, as difficult as challenging, as indeed ... the situation is? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Carrim, I am not sure whether I understood your question. I am not privy to information that the scammers, whether this scamming became worse because of COVID-19. As I am saying, the scammers go, especially to where migrants are applying for asylumseekers, and while they are on the queue outside the premises, that’s when they call them and ask for money. And say I can help you and all that and all that. Now, at the moment under COVID-19, you are aware that we do not have such queues anymore. For instance, the area where the scamming happens a lot,

...[Inaudible.] ... risky reception centres you are aware that we have closed them down. Since the Covid-19 started, we are not taking any application, anybody who is applying for asylum. So, I am not sure ... whether the level of scam will



become worse during COVID-19 ... [Inaudible.] ...I am not privy to that type of information?



Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, firstly, let me, thank the Minister for his responses. It does show that the department is committed to deal with these scammers, and my view is that these scammers will always be there to try to defraud unsuspecting service providers. But what I want to check from the Minister whether is he satisfied that the department has put up the right systems and structures in place to deal with these scammers? Thank you, Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S S Lucas): I don’t know whether it’s a comment or a question.



Mr T S C DODOVU: It’s a question. I am asking whether he is satisfied whether are the systems in place or the current system in place are they adequate enough to deal with the scammers?



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: It is the question, but I thought I have already answered it, when I started answering the question that the people who are being scammed are not



actually service providers but people who are looking for services from the department. People who want an ID, or who want a visa and all that. These are the people who are being scammed by scammers - who say, look, if you give me so much, I will make sure that you get your document faster. So the only thing we could do - we target the victim.



As I said, in order for these victims ... [Inaudible.] ... we put the website so that all people who look for services can get into our website and have an understanding of what must they do if they suspect a scam or if somebody approaches them and say I can help you. And if they are not convinced that this person is working for Home Affairs, then we give the numbers where they must phone and say such and such a person wants to help me, can I go on or is it an authentic person?

That’s the only thing we can do, Chairperson but also hoping all the members of the public will also not look for short cuts.



Most of the time hon Dodovu people are scammed because they are looking for fast results and short cuts. We are faced with people who have got fraudulent IDs, and when we take them, they say no is not me who applied for the fraudulent



ID, is somebody who was helping me. This is the person who defrauded the department and who got me fraudulent ID, it’s not me. So, we have to work constantly with members of the public to make sure that they do understand that there are people who scam them of money. Thank you.



Question 3:


The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Honourable Chair, this is the question I was talking about, which is asking whether we have got plans in place to set up mobile Department of Home Affairs offices. We already have mobile units Chair. It is not just a plan, it is already there, it is working. We have

100 vehicles, with appropriate technology for them to become Department of Home Affairs offices and go out in the far rural villages and go out everywhere, people will find in the Department of Home Affairs office. As I was speaking here, we have got 14 of such units in the Eastern Cape, nine in the Free State, eight in Gauteng, 13 in KZN, 12 in Limpopo, 10 in Mpumalanga, 10 in Northern Cape, nine in the North West and

11 in the Western Cape. Here at head office we have got four of them that are roaming waiting for whatever problem there is, so, there is a total of 100.



Actually, as I am speaking, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, hon Nzuza, and the Deputy Minister of Basic Education hon Mhaule together launch a project in Mpumalanga whereby we are using these mobile units to give matriculants the identity documents, IDs. You are aware that matriculants are back they need IDs to write exams, and many of them do not have. So, we do not want them to go and queue at Department of Home Affairs offices, we send these units to the schools. These are the mobile units which are equipped with everything for them to provide them with ID’s. Indeed, the mobile units are working. Thank you very much.





was muted now. Hon Mathevula I take it you are the one who will take the follow up.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Minister, which methods are using to alert the community that the mobile Department of Home Affairs offices will be around their areas? Thank you,



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, there are timetables which are ... [Inaudible] ... because I didn't



bring them along. There are time tables whereby they inform constituency offices, they inform local councillors, they informed the traditional leaders in that area, they try to use radio stations, etc. They use quite a number of methods in order to inform members of the public whether the units are going. For the schools, there is a timetable which has been drawn by the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, as well as the Deputy Minister of Basic Education. There is a timetable for the school to know that they are arriving on this particular day. Thank you very much.



Ms D C CHRISTIANS: I, thank you hon Deputy Chair. Minister, you have explained to us that you have had talks with the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Basic Education, and that you are currently running the programme to assist the schools, the matriculants with the Department of Home Affairs, with the applications and so on. I would like to know from you Minister, how is that programme progressing, because we believe that you only have 100 trucks that are servicing at the moment? How will you address the limitation of those 100 trucks especially for the people who are living in rural areas, that are still struggling with services when



it comes to Department of Home Affairs? Thank you, Deputy Chair.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Well, I am not sure hon member, what the question refers to. We have got Department of Home Affairs offices, these trucks are an add-on and at the present moment we have got 100. Of course, if we could have more than 100 we would be very happy with that. We are only having 100, because this is not just buying a truck, you have got to equip it and it takes a lot of time. Hon Chair, I can refer you to the National Assembly Portfolio Committee, which got worried that every little ... of mobiles when are they coming. We said no they are with service providers; they are fitting them with all this equipment. So, for now we have been only able to obtain 100 and we will keep on increasing the number, but will also keep on increasing the number of our offices. That is the only way we will deal with the shortcomings. Thank you very much,



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you Chair, and thank you Minister for all the responses. My question is that, while we note that has been an improvement in the time spent in the offices of Department of Home Affairs for services. Is there a plan to



further shorten the queues and the time spent to get such services? Thank you Chair



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, we are trying several methods. In other words, our new plan is to provide different service points, other than people getting services only from Department of Home Affairs offices or from mobile units. We also have got a problem with a problem with the banks, whereby people who are clients of a particular bank can apply online to obtain either an ID or a passport, and then the bank will call them in and then take their biometrics and send them to Department of Home Affairs, where they go through our back room check office and then from there to the government printing works. The passport or the ID is printed and is sent back to the bank where you go to collect it. We are hoping with this method, lots of people who have got bank accounts will no longer have to go Department of Home Affairs offices.



The other method we are trying about the queues was for instance during lockdown level five, we were not issuing out birth certificates, as you are aware. Immediately when we went to down to lockdown level four, we had a backlog of



81 000 birth certificates to be issued. We made sure that to avoid the long queues, each category of people has got their own ...[Inaudible] … specifically to collect the ID you have got - I mean to collect the birth certificate, you have got a particular queue ... to collect an ID that was not collected. We are trying to resolve these very much. Thank you.



Question 25


The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, yes, on Question 25, the Lesotho Special Dispensation is part of South Africa’s policy position on managing migration within Southern African Development Community, SADC. The objective of which was to regularise Lesotho nationals who were in the country illegally because of socioeconomic situations in their country. It allows for greater co-operation on managing migration challenges between the two countries. These have to continue with implementing regular migratory labour flaws and ensuring that persons who are in South Africa are legal. The process allows Basotho to ...[Inaudible] … in the Republic with relaxed conditions to work, study or conduct business.

They also contribute to the growth potential of their country with remittances which they are now able to lawfully send back home to Lesotho.



No challenges were experienced in implementing this dispensation, except that the application process which started in November 2019, that’s last year, was temporarily suspended in March, 2020 in compliance with the disaster management regulations, and will resume after the lockdown. Thank you very much.





very much. Hon Mthethwa is there a follow up? Hon Mthethwa! It seems as if hon Mthethwa is not there. We will cont....

I’m sorry, we will give to hon Sileku to ask his question.





Mnr I M SILEKU: Baie dankie, Adjunkvoorsitter.





Mandibulele Mphathiswa. Mphathiswa xa sijonga kumjikelo wokuqala ngabemi baseLesotho abangama-91 000 abathe bafaka izicelo abanazo. Uye wakhupha isaziso Mphathiswa esithi, abantu abalindeleke ukuba baxhamle kule nkqubo niphinde nayivula izakuphelelwa ngowama-2023 ikwaleli nani linye liyi-

90 000. Umbuzo wam Mphathiswa ngulo: Xa le nkqubo inokusiphathela amanani angaphantsi kwalawo niyalindeleyo,



niliSebe leMicimbi yezeKhaya, ingaba ningaphinda nicinge ngokubanika abemi baseLesotho ...





... the extention for another four years?



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the Lesotho Special Permit was given to 94 000 Basotho some years back. I do not actually have the year whether it is 2010. I remember the Zimbabweans special permit was 2010, I am not sure about the Lesotho one. It was given to 94 000 people. They are usually given this special permit for a period of four years after which we go back to Cabinet. It is not the Department of Home Affairs, which decides on this special permit, the Department of Home Affairs dispenses them. We have got to get permission from the Cabinet. Indeed, the Cabinet gave us another permission to extend them by another four years to 2023.



Lesotho did ask me before we did that in November last year, because they expired in November last year. The then Minister of Home Affairs, phoned me and said no, we must give the permits to 294 000. We resisted, because we said the original



number was 94 000, we do not want to expand it. He said, no many went into hiding, they did not want to take these special permits because they thought it’s a plot by the South African government to catch them and send them back home. I said, well, unfortunately we cannot help, the original we gave is 94 000, we stick to it. If I go back to Cabinet to ask for extensions, I do not think the Cabinet will be happy with us. At the moment as I said, we put it in abeyance because of COVID-19. But a few of them ...



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, hon Chair and thank you hon Minister for the responses. Hon Minister, migration between South Africa and our neighbours has always been a challenge, and this has also been exacerbated by undocumented immigrants.

Now, while this dispensation, is a tool assist us to regularise Lesotho nationals, does the government have similar programmes for the other SADC countries? Thank you Chair.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The special permits hon member, were extended to only three countries in SADC. It was extended to Zimbabwe, that is why there are on a Zimbabwe Special Permit. It was extended to Lesotho, that is why there



is a Lesotho Special Permit. It was extended to Angola, there is an Angolan Special Permit. Each one of them have got different circumstances. For instance, Zimbabwe, the idea of special permit came in 2010 when the number of Zimbabweans who gravited South Africa in 2008 after the collapse of the economy in Zimbabwe, or the general collapse of the economy. You remember, there was a world economic collapse in 2008.

Zimbabwe was one of those countries that was hit the most. Even us were in a recession, if you remember, but many people in SADC thought, South Africa is better off. We found so many people coming in, in fact 208 000, in one year when the Department of Home Affairs was used to receiving about

16 000, 20 000, 35 000. They received 208 000 in one year, the following year, the same thing. So, within two years, they were 400 000 people. All of them we say we are asking for, for asylum status, we want to be refugees, and we are aware that becoming refugees, there are certain conditions we have to meet. Because they could meet those conditions because they were not really refugees, they were just economic migrants but coming in in the name of refugees.

Because they could not get the necessary documents many became illegal and started defrauding South African IDs.



The Department of Home Affairs realising that they are unable to handle the situation, offered them amnesty to say please bring back the IDs, will give you a special permit. Eight thousand, seven hundred IDs that were defrauded, were brought back to the department. The department went to Cabinet to ask for the Zimbabwean Special Permit, and 279 000 people originally in 2010 received them. The Lesotho Special Permit I have already spoken about. Because we are in close proximity with Lesotho, made many of them work in our mines, and many of them come illegally. The Angolan Special Permit was because by 2015, the United ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, your time has expired. Let’s go to the next question, the one of hon Sileku, question number 39. Hon Minister, over to you, Question 39.



Question 39:


The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the total number of ID cards issued by the department since it first started rolling out smart IDs in 2013 – as at the end of March this year – is 15 990 524.



Regarding how much it costs us to issue the smart IDs: unfortunately, we don’t have one revenue stream classified as smart IDs and another revenue stream classified as green bar- coded IDs. They are one stream; we are unable to separate them. One must remember that we don’t charge anybody who applies for an ID. Those who are turning 16 and getting an ID for the first time pay nothing. Those who have reached the age of 60 also pay nothing. But those who are between the ages of 16 and 60 and who want replacement IDs because they lost the first ID pay R140. The total amount collected from both smart IDs and green bar-coded IDs since 2013 is approximately R1,570 billion as at yesterday’s date of 29 June 2020. Thank you.



Mr I M SILEKU: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Minister, considering the target of 38 million you set yourself and the department by 2025, do you anticipate or foresee any impediments that may lead to your department not achieving this target? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Our impediment is always the answer we gave earlier on: our downtime. When our systems are down we get stuck. During March, when our systems were down,



instead of processing about 20 000 applications per day, the number went down to about 8 000 per day. Of course that delays us. So that is always an impediment and it worries us greatly.





hon Minister. Hon Audrey Maleka? Maleka? Aundrey?



Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, Chair. I was having a problem with the network. Hon Minister, one of the main reasons for the introduction of the smart ID card was to improve the security weaknesses that were identified with the green bar-coded ID book. Am I correct in my assessment that there have been no weak points so far? Thank you, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, Chairperson, indeed that is true. The smart ID was introduced in 2013 because the green bar-coded ID could be defrauded very easily. I’ve just spoken about the 8 700 that were fraudulent on the part of migrants from Zim ... I mean, nationals from Zimbabwe. That showed that they could be defrauded easily.



Until now, we have not yet learnt of any problems with the smart ID, but I want to confess that there is no system that is 100% foolproof. Scammers or thugs always find a way. But we are also confident because the banks want to help us. The reason the banks want to help us is that they have learnt over the years – since 2013 – that if every client had a smart ID, they would save R50 million in identity fraud. That is why they said that they were prepared to help us and make their offices available to issue smart IDs. This is because they know that they will gain from that. So far we haven’t had lots of problems with smart IDs. We are very happy about that. Thank you very much.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Minister, you mentioned that you issue free ID smart cards to those who are over 60. What happens when these people lose their smart cards? When they apply for a second time do you charge them a certain amount? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: We do not charge people who are taking ... [Inaudible.] ... at the age of 60 ... [Inaudible.]

... being charged because there needs to be some control. If not, people would lose their IDs easily and all the time. So



we want people to take care of their IDs. It is a very, very important possession, so we charge people when they want a reissue and that amount is R140.





very much, hon Minister. Minister, we really want to say thank you very much for the really comprehensive responses. They were very enlightening. I want to give over now to the hon Nyambi to chair the questions to the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation. Thank you once again, Minister Motsoaledi.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Pleasure. Pleasure. My pleasure.








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Greetings, colleagues. Let me also welcome the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation Minister Pandor.



Question 26:




Good afternoon, Chairperson, and hon members. Thank you very much for this opportunity. The response to the question is as follows: Our missions abroad continue to provide support to stranded or destitute South Africans on behalf of the government as well as to facilitate repatriation flights from across the world.



We have repatriated over 11 000 South Africans thus far from all parts of the globe. Our missions have been absolutely wonderful in providing what we call “consular support” to stranded or destitute South African citizens. That is the response. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon Mmola, do you have a follow-up question? Mmola? The next follow-up question will be from the hon Arnold.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Chairperson, and greetings to the Minister. Minister, thank you for giving us the information in terms of the more than 11 000 South Africans who have been assisted by your department.



Your department is currently faced with – and we are faced with – serious challenges in its efforts to facilitate the repatriation of South Africans who were stranded and who are still stranded in other countries owing to the coronavirus pandemic.



In your interactions with governments in other countries, were there countries which did not co-operate in terms of providing assistance? If yes, which countries? Thanks.





Thank you very much, hon Arnolds, for the question. There are no countries that did not co-operate, because it is part of international law that countries provide support to citizens who are stranded outside their countries. So it is accepted practice that when there are emergency situations brought about by a pandemic, or another disaster, countries will collaborate and work together to ensure that they support each other to bring back their citizens.



For example, we had many tourists who were locked down in South Africa following the introduction of Level 5 restrictions. We had no international flights out that were



permitted, but countries wanted to repatriate their citizens just as we wanted to bring South Africans back. So we collaborated with Germany, with Belgium, with the United Kingdom. They would have a plane load of their citizens going back to their countries and we would then have the plane coming back full of South African citizens. All of that was done in co-operation.



Of course, it was not always easy to arrange because all countries have had various measures to prevent the import of infections into their countries. But we were able to negotiate, to make arrangements, and to ensure that each of us facilitated the return of our citizens. There has been absolutely amazing collaboration across the world, Chairperson. Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Good evening, hon Minister, or good afternoon. Hon Minister, thank you very much, firstly, for the efforts that you made along with so many others to repatriate South African citizens. But there are a few countries where it is still a concern and they are still struggling to come back home. One of the indications that I received was that China is one such



problem as there are about 200 South Africans stranded there. It seems to be a problem with flights not being able to come back. A later question on the Question Paper is around what is going on in China specifically. But in light thereof, is it not perhaps a worrisome factor, and what is the situation there currently that will give some hope to those 200 South Africans who find themselves stranded in the People’s Republic of China? Thank you, Minister.





Thank you very much, Chairperson. We continue to work with various countries in order to get our citizens back. Part of our challenge has been when we arrange for repatriation: there are some citizens who choose to remain in the country, and then after we have repatriated they then begin to get into difficulties in the foreign countries and seek our assistance when we have already repatriated hundreds of South Africans. So new numbers keep coming up from countries from which we have already repatriated.



Regarding the over 200 people in China that were referred to: As hon members would recall, the first repatriation was of students and other citizens from Wuhan in China. That



particular repatriation was very successful. We had excellent co-operation from the Chinese authorities; and with any remainders, we will continue to work closely with the government of China to ensure that we are able to return our citizens to South Africa. Thank you.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon, hon Minister. Hon Minister, in spite of all the efforts that you mentioned and that are being done, there are still very grave concerns. One of them is that the prices of SAA flights have been increased by roughly 133% in under a week. Rumour has it also that South African ambassadors in certain places are refusing to help our citizens if they do not hold an SA ticket.



Why is the ANC government allowing SAA to run an extortion racket by limiting who can land in South Africa and by price gauging tickets by over 100%, as detailed in a complaint by the DA to the Competition Commission? Have you contacted your Cabinet colleagues, Minister, of Transport and of Home Affairs in this regard? Thank you, Chair.





Thanks again, Chairperson. Well, clearly, we do not set the ticket prices for South African Airways, but we do work in close collaboration with all the airlines. When complaints have been directed to me for my attention, we have spoken to Minister Gordhan and to other colleagues to ensure that there aren’t any abuses. If the Competition Commission is investigating this, we shall get to the truth of those particular cases.



However, there have been instances of persons who wish to travel who claim that there are stranded who are actually individuals who are trying to come into South Africa who should not or are not permanent residents or citizens. So there have been some nebulous and questionable claims of being stranded South Africans.



I wish to challenge the hon Labuschagne by saying that it is not true that our heads of missions and our embassy staff have not been providing assistance. They have been absolutely heroic in the manner in which they have responded, from using their own funds to support people, to providing them with food parcels or providing for their basic needs in



circumstances where South African citizens were stranded and where the only assistance would come from a South African mission.



So I would definitely want evidence as to who the individual is who was denied assistance, but the 11 000 who have returned have been able to get home successfully as a result of being assisted by the South African government and by the missions of the people of South Africa throughout the world.



Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson, and thank you, Minister. We also appreciate the efforts that the department and government are making to ensure that South Africans are returned to the country.



Hon Minister, you said that repatriation happened when citizens of a country were repatriated from South Africa to their particular countries and then South Africans from those particular countries were repatriated back to South Africa.

What happens when you don’t have this arrangement and you have South Africans stranded in a particular country – there are no exchanges of repatriation? Thank you very much, Chair.





Thank you very much, Chairperson. What has happened in such instances is that we have been able to arrange – and sometimes the citizens themselves – chartered flights that we then facilitate regulatory permission for, or we have arranged an SAA plane or a plane with another airline.

Members should recall that many of the South Africans stranded overseas were persons who were on holiday. They were tourists. The lockdown was instituted and countries all stopped international flights. So we had to negotiate on that basis for them to be able to board a specially arranged flight in order to come back to South Africa. That was done several times.



Then there were others in the Middle East, for example, who were employed persons but, owing to the lockdown, several businesses closed down and reduced their number of staff owing to loss of income. These persons’ contracts were ended and they wanted to come back home to enjoy the support of their families in South Africa, because they no longer had jobs where they were resident. We have also been able to assist those South Africans to come back.



In some instances, we encouraged their actual employers to bear the costs so that it did not become a burden for the returning South African workers or for the South African government. So a range of arrangements had to be made, but we are very pleased that up to this point we have over 11 000 South Africans back home.



I am aware from data that our missions have that there are over 5 000 who still say they require assistance. Wherever our missions are able to provide support and where we can arrange for travel back home we do so.



We should also recall that this is not only about flying in to South Africa. There are also South Africans coming back by land – through land borders. I will be answering a question in that regard later this afternoon. Thank you, Chair.



Question 2:




Chair, it is a very similar to the one we just dealt but I hope that it will generate new follow up questions. We are, as I said earlier, providing consular support services to South Africans who are registered. Remember, you must



approach the South African embassy or High Commission to say I am stranded, distressed and I need assistance of South African government to come back.



I am not aware, according to the High Commission of the nine South Africans who the hon Arnolds says they are stranded in Namibia. What we have on our register is the 193 South Africans who are registered and for whom we are currently in discussions with the authorities of Namibia as to the repatriation of this 193. The process that we follow is we register all citizens who request to be repatriated to South Africa. We prickly have their names through the Department of Home Affairs. Once these are proven to be citizens our South African immigration officers at the borders are informed and provided with the list of names, ID documents and passport details so that we are fully compliant with the lockdown regulations. Thank you, hon Chairperson.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Hon Chairperson, that is the reason why I have mentioned one example, to get responses and follow ups if are there any challenges. Let me say hon Minister, your department has contacted those South Africans in Namibia and they were indeed assisted. Six of them are currently in the



Northern Cape under quarantine but your department did assist and promptly responded to the request that was made. Thank you.





shall convey that confirmation by hon Arnolds to the hardworking team in the department and the High Commissioner in Namibia. Thank you.



Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister for the response during these unprecedented times of the Covid-19. There have been many cases of South Africans who have been stranded abroad and assisted by government and many were happy by the level of care showing in the system given by the South African government. Thank you Minister for that. Minister you have referred to the consular support to our nationals in Namibia. Have there been any challenges with consular services during this Covid-19 period in other of the continent and the world? Thank you Chair.





think at the beginning, and thank you to hon Shaik, there was certainly a problem because what we were confronted with is a



situation that we totally unexpected, that we have not prepared ourselves for and I frankly was astounded by the numbers that we have to deal with in terms of request for assistance. Our missions found themselves inundated with request for help when the lockdown was implemented. It was just as other countries struck down their airports. We actually had citizens who had just booked out of their hotel accommodations and were at airports waiting to board planes and they were unable to return home.



Our missions were totally thrown out of filter but credit to them, I think in a very short time were able to recover. They marshalled themselves and began to find the means of identifying those who needed assistance and ensure that we had correct information. We had to develop the whole protocol Chair as to how we would manage this process. As I say, for all of us as countries this was a first time.



My colleagues, other foreign Ministers, when we converse privately what we had to do in the past few months, as Ministers of Foreign Affairs, we often joked that we had become excellent travel agencies. So we know what our next



career applications should be. Thank you very much House Chairperson.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Hon Chairperson, good afternoon Minister. Hon Minister, the border between South Africa and Namibia recently opened and we are very grateful for that. However, the South African – Zimbabwean border remains a biggest challenge which also has to handle any traffic from Zambia.

Minister what is currently under consideration with regard to this border? Thank you, Chair.





Thank you, hon Boshoff. Hon Chair, we process repatriation on the information that we gather, on the verification that I refer to and the regulatory processes relevant to different departments, be it the Departments of Home Affairs or the Transport or indeed Trade and Industry. So, we deal with each matter on a case by case basis.



On the matter of border challenges, clearly if a country has imposed a lockdown, we have to negotiate with them, the arrangements as to, either the passage of goods or the return of citizens. With respect to business interruptions we have



agreed as the National Coronavirus Command Council, NCCC that we must facilitate the movement of goods and so we are able to ensure that that happens. With respect to persons, I have described the process that we follow.



So, we are in touch with Zimbabwe where we need to be in touch with them. Zambia communicates with us from time to time or any country that requires our help but in order to ensure that we achieve the objectives of protecting our citizens and avoiding the further importation of the virus we have got to be rigorous in our processes to ensure that we are managing this whole situation appropriately. Thank you very much House Chairperson.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Minister, through you hon House Chair, at this stage it seems that the only thing that is crossing the border between Zimbabwe and South Africa without any problems is buying illegal cigarettes. Just joking about that but I am not joking but to come to the question, what pressure will your department and government place on the government of Zimbabwe to open the borders and allow South African citizens that are desperately awaiting to return to their own country? Thank you.





Chairperson, I must say that I do not think that cigarettes that are illegal are a joke. You know it is just something I find it a bit peculiar. If there are citizens of South Africa who are in Zimbabwe and they wish to come home, our High Commission is there for them to approach. When we have the details we will ensure that we work with the government of Zimbabwe to ensure that they are returned home. This is happening almost on a daily basis and it will be very useful to be informed by the hon Aucamp if there are citizens he is aware of who are being prevented from returning home by any government. This is because when we get the names, when we approach the High Commission, we do all we can to facilitate. The returns have been by land as well as by air. This is ongoing day to day. I get daily reports on the tab. Thank you very much.



Question 28:




Chairperson, yes indeed, the government has received reports of alleged ill-treatment and discrimination directed at Africans broadly, including South Africans living in Guangzhou in particular, where a new wave of COVID-19



infections was claimed to be coming from overseas arrivals, particularly Africans. It was said that African nationals were experiencing consistent harassment and humiliation by being subjected to medical examinations involuntarily and forced quarantine despite being tested negative for COVID-19.



The ambassadors of Africa as a group have actively engaged the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Beijing on these allegations and these engagements continue with assurances by the government of China that these matters are being addressed to ensure that all African nationals resident in China are treated fairly and on par with other foreign nationals in the province of Guangzhou.



Our AU Commission chair Mr Faki Mahamat, also had meetings with the Chinese ambassador in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia to express the AU’s concerns about the allegations and to seek explanation. As the current chair of the AU, we made our support public and clear for the actions of commissioner Mahamat.



In mid-April, the Chinese Foreign Minister Mr Wang Yi, informed chairperson Mahamat that the matter would be



addressed and that measures are underway in that region to improve the situation of Africans in line with the strong partnership between China and Africa.



We have also ensured that our mission is available to all South Africans that might find themselves confronted by these challenging and difficult allegations. We have been assured by the embassy in South Africa, as well as the Foreign Ministry of the People’s Republic of China, that these matters are being addressed. I have welcomed the assurances from the Chinese authorities that they strive to fight discrimination and particularly discrimination against foreign visitors to their country, and I have urged the relevant authorities to investigate the reports and to take appropriate remedial measures.



The allegations have been of great concern to me because they certainly don’t link to the excellent links that we have as South Africa and China. So, we have really worked with the authorities to ensure that, through mutual collaboration, we fight this allegation of discrimination toward African people. I have received consistent assurances from China that it has taken steps to ensure that the authorities in



Guangdong and in the capital city Guangzhou ... [Inaudible.]


... and equal treatment of all foreign nationals and we will continue to monitor the situation. Thank you Chairperson.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much House Chair. Hon Minister, the actions taken, both by the foreign Ministers on the African continent as well as the Chinese authorities as you’ve mentioned, seem fairly serious and drastic, as it should be. However, to me that indicates that it’s more than just mere allegations. The persons imposing this inhumane treatment on African nationals are also part of the Chinese authorities.



Will you, if you haven’t done so yet — I have not picked it up — openly condemn such actions by the Chinese authorities and what has this incident or these incidents done to our relationship with the People’s Republic of China?





Thank you very much Chairperson. We have a long established and historical relationship with the People’s Republic of China that was begun many decades ago and was part of the



whole history of struggle for freedom in South Africa. This close friendship has continued beyond ... [Inaudible.]



I wish to assure the hon Michalakis that I indeed issued a public statement condemning the allegations and the actions of discrimination and stigmatisation that had been brought to our attention. In the statement we made it very clear that all the alleged actions were abhorrent to a country ... [Inaudible.] ... South Africa and were not in any way in concert with the excellent relationship and partnership that we enjoy with the People’s Republic of China.



I believe it was following our public statement and the actions by the AU Commission chair that you had a very visible reaction from the highest echelons of the Chinese government. So they have taken action, and as I say, we work and will continue to devote interest to ensuring that we don’t have such incidents in future.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you Chairperson. Let me just say that we condemn in the strongest terms the abuse and racist mistreatment of Africans living and working in China. As an international community, we must come together to fight the



spread of COVID-19 instead of engaging in racial discrimination based on unfounded claims that Africans are spreading the virus.



From reports, many Africans were forcefully evicted from their apartments and thrown into the streets, even with their infant children. Minister, thank you that you have publicly condemned this treatment.



However, just in terms of clarity, can you confirm if there were South Africans that were also affected by this situation?





Thank you very much Chairperson. Hon Arnolds, we did not have direct evidence of South Africans affected in Guangzhou, the city in which it was said these actions occurred. However, we did have complaints from South Africans in other parts of China who were feeling a sense of being watched; of being discriminated against; of a negative reaction. You would’ve noted that two days ago President Ramaphosa spoke of the stigma that is attaching ... to the whole experience of the pandemic once persons become aware of an infected person.



Unfortunately, when you have epidemics of this nature, the reaction of people is often one which is discriminatory, which smacks of prejudice and which actually doesn’t indicate knowledge of the situation that individuals and citizens are confronted by.



So, it means all of us must do more to ensure that people understand this pandemic; this COVID-19, and that stigma and labelling do not become part of the reaction of individuals towards those who are infected or to family members who are affected. You would recall we’ve had to fight prejudice and discrimination as we responded to the HIV effect in our country and the number of persons who became infected or families that were affected.



So, discrimination appears to accompany fear where communities or individuals feel threatened. I think what we need to do is to continue to engage with the Chinese authorities. I am pleased that they actually approached the relevant province, the regional government as well as the local government, because when there continued to be reports the Chinese government actually went directly to the local city government to say it is their responsibility to ensure



that the local population is educated as to how they should conduct themselves. And we began to see a decline in complaints and reports at that locally based set ... following that locally based set of actions.



Question 42:




Chairperson, I understand that there has been a lot of back and forth on this matter of the Budapest Convention. It is a regional convention of the Council of Europe and while it’s a very important international treaty addressing internet and computer-based crimes, we have agreed that we do not believe that we should ratify the instrument as we have not as yet developed a piece of legislation that we believe would be ... rather we don’t have a universal piece of legislation in existence which all the world can draw on as an example in formulating appropriate domestic legislation.



So, we felt what we would like to do is to ensure that in the domestic sphere we begin to put different aspects of statutes in place in order to begin to reflect the best practice in terms of regulations and laws against internet and computer- based crimes.



We are also reluctant to attach our signature or ratification to a regional convention because it really is set to apply to those regional members, participants and partners in the regional body. It was not designed as a multilateral global policy that all member states of the UN might attach to.



So, we are really looking at the UN Convention against Transnational Organised Crime as a basis for developing appropriate local domestic law in this area but our sentiment is that this particular convention of the Council of Europe should not be one that we would ratify. Thank you very much Chairperson.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much House Chairperson. Hon Minister, we are in the fortunate position that tomorrow, hopefully the National Council of Provinces will be approving and passing the Cybercrimes Bill, which is a very welcome piece of legislation that helps us deal with a lot of these issues. It is also greatly based on research that is to a large extent based on the content of the Budapest Convention. The problem is that, as you know, the alternative convention from the UN will take quite a reasonable time to actually put in place. These things don’t happen overnight. The problem is



also that this new piece of legislation relies on extraterritorial jurisdiction. A cyber-terrorist attack will not most likely come from within the borders of South Africa. The person who launches such an attack on South Africa, and it’s not unlikely that it will happen, will most probably do so from outside our borders. For us to be able to establish some form of jurisdiction so that that person can be prosecuted within our borders, we will need to have some form of an agreement, either bilateral or multilateral, in place.



Now, the Budapest Convention and the AU Convention are the only two that are currently in place. The AU Convention is almost not signed by any country in Africa. The Budapest Convention is actually signed by five African countries as well as 65 other countries internationally.



Do you not think that, in light of the fact that if there is a cyber-terrorist attack on South Africa tonight attacking our critical infrastructure, it’s necessary, at least until we have a mechanism in place at the UN, to ratify this document so that at least if the perpetrator comes from one of those 65 countries, we will be able to negotiate on the basis of acquiring jurisdiction so that that person can be



brought to account? And if not, who will then be ... or what will your response then be to the public if we are in a position not to be able to prosecute a person who launches a crippling cyber-terrorist attack against our nation?





Thank you very much Chairperson. I repeat that we believe that the convention and some of the other regional instruments are important instruments for us to draw on as we work as member states of the UN to develop a universal instrument which would be multilateral for combatting cybercrime.



Let me reiterate that it is not true that we do not have statutory provisions that would allow us to prosecute any individual that may commit the form of crimes Mr Michalakis referred to in his follow up. There is the UN Convention against Transnational Organised Crime, which is able to be utilised for such prosecution of criminals. We also have domestic legislation that can be used to prosecute criminals, such as our International Co-operation in Criminal Matters Act, as well as the Extradition Act. Of course, we also have assistance in mutual legal assistance provisions.



So, there are a range of instruments that can be utilised which would allow our criminal fighting agencies to act should such incidents occur in our country. We are able to invoke a number of domestic laws, such as the Protection of Constitutional Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities Act and the International Co-operation in Criminal Matters Act. So, there are instruments which are part of South African law that could be used should the occurrences the hon Michalakis has referred to take place. I believe that we should continue to work in the ambit of the UN to develop an appropriate universal convention.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much House Chair. Minister, I have now listened to your questions and it’s given me a lot of food for thought. I would therefore like to ask is it a mere chance that Russia and China are also opposed to this treaty, and that although we were one of the original signatories to the treaty, we became opposed to it the moment that Russia indicated their opposition to the said treaty?





Thank you Chairperson. I have never been approached by my colleague in Russia nor my colleague in China ... that we



should be opposed to this particular regional convention; nor have we ever discussed its ratification or nonratification with them. South Africa is a sovereign nation which makes decisions on its interests on its own.



So no, there has been no influence by Russia or China with respect to our perspective on this matter. This is our view. We have these pieces of legislation that I have referred to. I don’t believe they exist in the two countries hon Boshoff has referred to. We will develop our own cybercrime legislation. We do co-operate with the European Union, with various countries within the union, with countries such as Russia, China, India, Brazil, the USA; many, on these matters of internet and cybersecurity and we will continue to do so. However, our belief is that the instrument must be one that enjoins all of us as members of the UN and that provides an appropriate universal platform to address matters of cybercrime.



Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much Minister. Article 25 of the said convention speaks about mutual assistance. Now, mutual assistance means very many things and very many definitions. Two of the countries that have acceded to this particular



convention — one is Israel and the other is Morocco. I am sure that our definition of terrorism would not be the same as the definition of Israel’s that would have a very different definition. So, we are talking about mutual assistance here. It could be a challenge that that would ... [Inaudible.] In fact, Minister, when we go to the UN Chapter I think the debate about the definition of what terrorism means would be a challenge and I think ours would come out on the basis of human rights and the question of equal rights in the world. Thank you very much.



[Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... just congratulate you on


the work you’ve done to bring and repatriate people back.





Thank you very much to the hon Dangor. I shall communicate his thanks to the team because it has really been the officials, particularly in diplomatic and consular services, that have done the hard work.



It is true that with respect to a number of countries throughout the world, they would have very different principles and values in comparison to South Africa and its



constitutional framework which upholds the rights and interests, particularly of the most marginalised and vulnerable. So, there would be a difference.



However, mutual legal assistance is an international practice that allows countries, on the basis of the logic of a particular legal issue, to determine whether or not they assist each other; whether or not they should collaborate.



Hon members would recall that given the right to life in our Constitution and various judgements around the right to life and the relationship to the death penalty, there may be instances where we are unable to collaborate due to ... [Inaudible.] ... country as well as the constitutional provisions in Chapter 2 of our Constitution.



So, mutual legal assistance is an international practice which itself is governed by your own legal framework and instruments in your country.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you Chairperson. Hon Minister, I know we have referred to the ratifying of treaties and so on, and you referred to some of it and also said that ... referred to



a regional treaty. You also mentioned that a treaty will only be ratified by us — or maybe I didn’t understand clearly — if all the UN countries ratify it.



My question is as follows. The situation is that there are currently 65 countries worldwide, as has been mentioned by hon Michalakis, that have ratified this treaty. These include the five African nations. Is it still being regarded as an exclusively European or regional tool, even if it might ensure that South Africa is, to some extent, safeguarded pending a UN treaty? And, how many countries need to ratify a treaty before it will be recognised by South Africa?





[Inaudible.] The point is not that all UN countries must ratify. The point is that it’s only an instrument developed by the UN which is one that is designed to be considered by all countries in the world.



The European Council is made up of a few countries and countries are free to attach their signature to any regional convention that the European Council develops. That’s their choice. However, we cannot as South Africa say five African



countries have signed on and therefore South Africa should sign on. We do not believe that that is an appropriate instrument for us. Hence the direction we have chosen of working in the broader UN family.



There is an expert team put together which is set to develop a comprehensive international convention on countering the use of information and communications technology ... the abusive use of these. We then would work in the ambit of that committee because we still believe we would like something enjoying far broader support than just five African countries for us to become party to it. Thank you very much.



Question 36:




Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Firstly, Chairperson, could I say that I’m not aware of numerous countries seeking an investigation into the People’s Republic of China’s handling of the coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19. I’m aware of one country that has made such a statement. The World Health Assembly held its 73rd session in May this year, and adopted by consensus a landmark resolution on Covid-19 response which was cosponsored by more than a 130 countries



including South Africa and the entire Africa group which seeks to bring the world together in the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic.



We were very clear in the World Health Assembly that all countries need to work together if we are to defeat this pandemic. We express concerns about the negative impact of the pandemic and stress that we must collaborate internationally. We said that, in fact, the level of partnership we’ve seen worldwide calls for even greater partnership. We also agreed that the Director-General of the World Health Organisation should initiate and in consultation with Member States: A stepwise process of impartial independent and comprehensive evaluation; including using existing mechanisms to review experience gained and not to find blame with anyone and lessons learned from the World Health Organisation, WHO, co-ordinator international health response to Covid-19; including a number of issues that with us to be looked into such as whether the mechanisms available to the World Health Organisation was sufficient, the functioning of the international health response, the status of implementation of the previous review committee reports;



and the contribution of the World Health Organisation to use the global efforts of the United Nations.



This resolution indicated very strong willingness on the part of WHO to co-operate with Member States and the international community, and we believe that signalled is a strong commitment to transparency. We are fully supportive of the evaluation that was agreed by the World Health Assembly and we are, therefore, of the view that any investigation into the global response must be conducted in terms of that international resolution and not some particular tracing of one country by another that is often in competition with it.



We also believe that any such evaluation must be objected impartial, must be science-based and professional and can only be pursued after the virus has been brought under control. We shouldn’t be misled into being diverted into quarrels between nations. The focus now has to be the pandemic, and this is what the government of South Africa is insisting upon. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Mr A B CLOETE: Thank you, House Chair and thank you Minister, for the answer. I just read that we saw spark of 19 000 new



infections over the weekend and there’s a talk about the hon


... [Inaudible.] ...you know this question ... [Zoom connectivity lost.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Cloete!



An HON MEMBER: We can’t hear, hon Cloete.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Cloete, we can’t’ hear. Hon Cloete! We will give him an opportunity when he is sorted and he will give us an indication. Let’s go to hon Aucamp. Hon Aucamp!



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, is it not of paramount important for us not to ... [Inaudible.]

... the specific country, but in the interest of humanity to call for such any investigation to ensure that humanity is not faced with the problem of this nature ... [Inaudible.]

... the same proposal again, maybe we should call for something like that. Thank you.





Well, I’m not sure what more to say because as I’m saying to



the hon Aucamp that this matter was discussed at the World Health Assembly and the resolution was adopted which does say that there should be a process of impartial independent and comprehensive evaluation. Therefore, this is no longer a query or a proposal, it is an adopted resolution which will be implemented of all countries, hon Aucamp. It is agreed that the task now is to protect ourselves and our populations, is to combat this pandemic devoting resources and time to evaluations when infections are arising, when intensive care unit, ICU, beds are running out and when we do not have ventilators is a destruction. We must focus on combating this disease protecting ourselves, our families and our nation. Thank you.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you, hon House Chairperson and hon Minister for your response. Hon Mister, I can’t agree more with you that the international collaboration as well as focus on the pandemic is key. Therefore, I’m not sure if this investigation into the handling of the virus by the people to Republic of China will assist us in any way in the current Covid-19, except maybe for a narrow misinformed political agenda against China. Thank you.





would agree with the hon Shaikh that really, this is something. It is a proposal that I’m warranted and that doesn’t assist the world in the task, and a difficult one that is confronting us. Thank you, House Chairperson.



Question 43:




Thank you very much again, House Chairperson. The response is yes, the Southern African Development Community, SADC, operates and takes decisions on the basis of unity and consensus with the goal of assuring as per SADC treaty that we promote sustainability an equitable economic growth as social economic development which will be directed at ensuring poverty alleviation with the aim of eradicating poverty, enhancing the standard and quality of life of the people of our region, and supporting those who are disadvantaged through greater regional integration.



We are satisfied as South Africa with the prevailing unity within SADC and we believe that the available mechanisms are sufficient to address disagreements which might arise from time to time. Of course, as the hon member points out in this



question, multilateral organisations such as SADC are based on volunteer affiliation. Countries that wish to take up membership consider issues of mutual and material benefit that could be derived from such belonging. SADC has displayed vibrancy, in fact, I believe that it is one of the most vibrant regional economic communities in Africa, it has been vibrant and it pursuits regional economic security and the political interest of its members.



Member States have been very committed to the objectives of the organisation, its principles and its programmes as outlined in the range of instruments. Therefore, we continue to have confidence in our organisation. We had a fantastic meeting of the organ on politics are peace, defence and security of Ministers just last week of SADC and the proceeding illustrated the unity I’m referring to in a very, very good fashion. Thank you, House Chairperson.



Mr M NHANHA: Thank you, House Chairperson, and thank you, Minister for your response. I am really not so sure about the vibrant of SADC, Minister, because it keeps bobbling my mind that it took two and half years of silence by SADC before SADC could make a pronouncement on the first attack by Ahlu



Sunnah Wa-Jama in Cabo Delgado Province in Mozambique. For two and half years, SADC was quiet and in the meanwhile the Mozambican government saw it fit to rather approach selected individual countries such as our country, South Africa and Russia, for assistance to deal with the problem of terrorism in their country and they did not approach SADC.



My question is that, Minister, is it the slow reaction and the unwillingness to call on the region to help not a reflection of mistrust among member countries in SADC? Thank you.





Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Well, I think that belonging to a club which I’m sure Mr Nhanha does in other areas of his life doesn’t mean that he should give up all your decision-making as sovereignty. Countries have a right to conduct their security and international affairs as they desire. SADC doesn’t impose a particular approach on a country. Therefore, we were pleased to interact with Mozambique at a range of different levels on the challenges confronting it when we were asked through the President that a greater support should be provided. This was and it is



being appropriately considered, but it is entirely up to the independent decision of Mozambique as to how it reacts on any matter of a security international social political or other character.



Being a member of SADC or the United Nations, UN, doesn’t subsume your particular national interests or approaches. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, has Mozambique had any diplomatic talks with SADC as a whole or any individual SADC nations on a deployment of troops to the Northern Province to curb the spread of the terrorism? If so, what was South Africa’s response? Thank you, House Chair.





Thank you again, House Chairperson. I’m not aware of a request for a deployment of troops. There have been discussions as to providing support. However, I’m not aware of any request for boots on the ground. Those discussions are ongoing as the two countries do work very closely together.

As to whether Mozambique has spoken - two countries I know that they have spoken - to several SADC Member States, and



they also had a briefing to all the members of SADC in the organ meeting which is chaired this year by Zimbabwe and the President of Mozambique and his Ministers were present at that organ meeting to give a full briefing to the region.



Therefore, where we are able to provide support and where requests are made, we consider them and react within our abilities as South Africa. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.



Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Minister. Minister, I think what we should be encouraged, is the harmonisation of civil society with the SADC, and especially the business community so that we can take advantage of Africa free trade agreement. Therefore, my experience, Minister, having served in both the SADC Region and other regions, SADC is the most cohesive region in the African continent. Thank you very much, Minister.





Thank you very much, House Chairperson and hon Dangor that has been my ... [Inaudible.] ... observation. This is a very integrated region. There is a great deal of collegiality,



there is a strong attachment to the decisions that we made. I’m sure hon members have been able to observe the role President Ramaphosa has played as facilitator of a political resolution appointed as facilitator by SADC to assist Lesotho to address the political and security challenges that the Kingdom of Lesotho has been confronted with.



SADC has been most appreciated of the role of President Ramaphosa, but it has been a role where the facilitator sought to unify the nation to develop an appropriate constitutional framework that would create the basis for a lasting peace. This is the character of SADC where oriented toward development, toward political stability and toward the economic prosperity over the various nations in the region.

Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Question 5:




Chairperson, I’ve just got some papers really mixed up. Just


give me a minute, sorry.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No problem hon Minister. It’s marked number 5, it’s the last one for the day for you.





trying to… I think my responses will be very much similar to what I had said earlier in responding to the earlier question by Mr Michalakis and that is that in the absence of the universal instrument to address cybercrime matters and pending the finalisation of the Bill he mentioned that Cybercrimes Bill, we can prosecute cyber criminals through the various statutes that I refer to on MLA mutual legal assistance and bilateral agreements that are in existence which provide for international cooperation under the UN convention against transnational organised crime.



I also made reference to domestic legislation that can be used for purposes of prosecution. However, given that we are aware that some of these pieces of legislation include onerous demands in terms of proof and agreement and corporation between states, we do need a piece of legislation that allows us to be rather nimbler than it’s anticipated by



the statute I have referred to and this this is why the Cybercrimes Bill and its passing is of paramount importance.



So, I think we believe that we do have the legal basis for action and we think that in terms of developing further legislation, it might be more appropriate for this question and the inadequacy legal provision in the view of Mr Michalakis that, that should be posed to justice and constitutional development as they are responsible for framing the appropriate national laws for South Africa. Thank you very much Chairperson.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much House Chairperson. Thank you Minister. My apologies for belabouring the topic but you would appreciate that it is part of my job.



Minister, thank you for that response. I just have a few concerns and I’m not trying to play politics. This is really a sincere concern of mine. Just on a few points, the UN instrument is going to take quite a bit of time. In the mean time we have nothing as a country and I will explain why I say that just now.



The EU instrument is no longer solely original one if 65 countries across the globe have rectified it and we have signed it we just haven’t rectified it. If 65 countries have rectified it, it becomes a global instrument and whichever countries have signed it, if we have a united nations instrument, those same countries will also be signing it.



Our domestic legislation only allows us automatic jurisdiction within the borders of our own country. The moment we’re talking about extraterritorial jurisdiction; we need to have some form of an agreement in place with other nations.



I did when we discussed the Cybercrimes Bill discuss this with the Department of Justice and I also requested your department to be invited to our meeting to have a discussion on this.



But, my concern is that our domestic legislation means nothing if there’s not some or other form of an international agreement or a bilateral agreement with various countries in place. Unfortunately, the United Nations convention



transnational organised crime that you mentioned does not cover cyber terrorism for the moment.



So, in the meantime we are left completely exposed as a country to a crime that will take place or that will be committed outside of our borders and all of the instruments in place and our legislation means nothing if there’s not a signatory of such a multilateral agreement or various bilateral agreements that’s going to be costly and take time. Will the Minister please commit to looking into this matter and take this seriously because it is a security threat to our country?





convey the sentiments of the hon Michalakis to the Minister of Justice and we will provide them with an indication as to whether there’s any rethinking of the perspective that have put before the Council today. Thank you very much Chairperson.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you Chairperson. Hon Minister, I know that we’ve really asked a lot of questions around this issue but you said you will refer this to the Minister of Justice



and I’m not clear at the stage whether there are any





Do we have any agreements as an alternative to the extradition in the event of a cyberterrorist attack against South Africa from within the jurisdiction of the 65 nations that rectified the convention and if not why not and if so, what agreements do we have and what are the further relevant details of that? Thank you.





Thank you very much Chairperson. Chair, let me repeat. In the case of an international cybercrime, we can use the provisions of the UN convention against transnational organised crime as a universal instrument to address this crime. We can also invoke domestic laws because domestic laws can be invoked for international criminal purposes.



We have laws such as the protection of constitutional democracy against terrorist and related activities act. We have the international cooperation in criminal matters act and we have the extradition Act, we also have bilateral



agreements on mutual legal assistance between various countries across the world and South Africa.



So, I think we do have protections that can be utilised and as I said, I will convey to the Minister of Justice and my colleagues in Cabinet. The person of some of the members for the European council instrument. It is a regional instrument, whether or not there are 65 countries that have signed onto it remains a regional instrument of the council of Europe.

That’s where it originated. A larger number of signatories does not change its original character. Thank you very much Chairperson.



Mr K M MMOEIMANG: Thank you Chair. Thank you Minister for giving clarity in terms of the various instruments that we can use to combat the cybercrime. Just to confirm Minister that in terms of the revised chapter 7 of the national development plan is a guiding tool to our South African policy and amongst the principle is the appreciation of Ubuntu, Pan Africanism and also the South relations and South Africa as an African country see Africa as an entry point to international relations as our interest is closely linked with the interest of the continent. Hon Minister could this



also be the resistless to why we are confident that we will not be a prisoner to the regional mode in Europe?





Thank you very much. Well certainly it’s important for South Africa to always point out that any international instrument which it would attach its signature must be in line with the provisions of our Constitution and the spirit and intent of the principles and values enshrined in the Constitution as well as other policy documents that inform South Africa’s national relations policy.



So, any international document or law that offends our Constitution or that does not include the South or dear friends of South Africa who share our values and practices, we of course will be weary of being part of such a document.



However, I think the Cybercrimes Bill is a very important step forward for South Africa and the processes underway within the United Nations called great promise and we will work within that context in order to address the inadequacies that several hon members have been pointing out in the



questions that were directed at me today. Thank you very much Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you hon Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, hon Pando. On behalf of the leadership of the NCOP, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for availing yourself, taking questions and being able to assist us to understand some of the complex issues in relation to international relations.

Once again, thank you hon Minister.



Question 29:


The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, in light of recent media reports regarding the suspected illegal transportation of medical products from O R Tambo Airport, what extent is a security threat posed in this regard and what is the general state of security at ports of entry? So that is what the question there. It is important to explain the deployment and responsibility of various entities at our ports of entry. And I think the passing of the Border Management Act actually indicates what the various responsibilities of the various departments are, but also other ten entities within government and these entities have



differentiated but complementary responsibilities in terms of border security. The State Security Agency in particular is responsible for detecting and reporting threats coming through our ports to other law enforcement agencies but we must remember that it is not us who have that responsibility but other intelligence agencies as well as that of the defence force. In this responsibility of gathering intelligence, the State Security Agency works with both the police and the defence intelligence. And again would like to emphasise that we are a civilian service and not a law enforcement entity. Therefore, we do not act on intelligence but pass it on to those who have the responsibility to act on it.



The security threat posed by the smuggling of contraband, illicit drug trafficking, money laundering through our ports is a major problem. What makes matters worse is the fact that these activities also happened on the borderline and not only at our ports of entry. The biggest risk that makes us so much more vulnerable in this regard is the phenomenon of corruption within our ranks in terms of the officials that work at the ports and the lack of human and also



technological capacity to detect and combat these illegal activities.



We need to emphasise that dealing with cross-border crime requires an integrated regional and continental approach as the movement of people and goods goes beyond our borders as a country. With regard to the general state of security at our ports of entry, it is crucial to differentiate between land, sea and air. Generally, the airspace is much safer than the two modes of entry because stricter measures get applied from the country of origin, which makes it much more manageable for the receiving country. With regard to the seaports, the challenge becomes more about capability to scan and detect illegal goods from entering our country through the ports. We need appropriate technologies and more investments in equipment and the latest skills to combat the illegal entry of goods. And I think, as I was listening to the responses that have been given by the Minister of Police, he alluded to this as well.



As mentioned earlier, what makes matters worse on land is the fact that these activities also happen on the borderline, and not only at our ports of entry. And once again, investment in



appropriate technologies, human capabilities, financial resources need to be beefed up to address the issue of illegal activities in our borderline. And this includes the important work of finalising the implementation of the Border Management Agency. Thank you very much.





Nk L C BEBEE: Ngiyabonga, baba, Sihlalo weNdlu, ngiyabonga kakhulu ... [Ubuwelewele.] Ngqongqoshe ngencazelo yakho embuzweni, ngifisa ukwazi ukuthi, ngabe umnyango uyakwazi yini ukuthi ulandelele imithethomgomo ebekiwe mayelana nemithetho yemingcele? Uma kungenjalo, kungani? Uma kunjalo, yiziphi izinyathelo ezibonakalayo ezithathiwe? Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo weNdlu.



UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELEKA KOMBUSO: Ngiyabonga kakhulu lungu elihloniphekile, umthetho uyalandelwa kakhulu kanti futhi nakithi kulolu hlangothi lwezokuvikeleka kombuso siyawulandela umthetho. Siyanikezela ngolwazi kuleyo minyango ebhekele lowo msebenzi wokuqapha imingcele nezokuvikeleka kwemingcele kodwa njengoba kade sengishilo ukuthi kuya ngabo ukuthi le mininingwane esiyinikeze yona bayayitha bayiyise phambili, bakwazi ukubopha, bakwazi ukuqhubeka nokuphenya.



Lowo mthwalo usuke ususukile kithi ngoba sibe sesiwukhile umnqumo.



Enye into, ngoba besengishilo, sinalo uphiko olubhekene nokuqoqwa kolwazi emingceleni kodwa kade ngishilo ukuthi sinomsebenzi onzima okumele siwenze ...





... in terms of ensuring ...





... ukuthi sinabo abantu abenele ...





... to be able to do ...





 ... lo msebenzi omkhulu esimele siwenze. Kodwa ngaphezu kwalokho, ubuchwepheshe nabo kufuneka ukuthi buthengwe. Kulesi simo esibucayi somnotho waseNingizimu Afrika kuba nzima-ke ngezinye izikhathi ukuthola lemali esiyifunayo ukuthi sikwazi ukuthenga ubuchwepheshe noma ukuthuthukisa



ubuchwepheshe lobu obufunekayo ukuthi sikwazi ukwenza lo msebenzi. Ngiyabonga.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much, hon Minister, given the findings of the High Level Panel Report and investigations started in June 2018 as well as was mentioned by the Deputy Minister in August 2019 in an oral question session here in the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, as well as the challenges that you’ve just shared with us now in answering the question, can the people of South Africa feel confident that the State Security Agency has the intention and capacity to fulfil its essential role and functions at all our ports of entry, air, sea and land, given the technological constraints that you have just highlighted? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon member, as I had said in my initial response ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister!



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Yes, hon member? Hon Chairperson, as I had said in my response earlier on, this is a collaborative effort between various departments and various organs of state, including customs, SA Revenue Service, Sars, who are responsible for the customs wing.



It is true that in a lot of instances we would be found wanting when it comes to technology that is up to scratch. But we have spoken and had conversations between myself and the Minister of Science and Technology to look at what is available at this stage to assist us. In lurching on to what the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, has, what the Department of Science and Technology has but also developing internal capacity for us to be able to look into technology development internally. So we do have the intention. But capacity, as I say, can never be enough because, as you would know, technology shifts and technology is improved and upgraded almost on a daily basis. Thank you.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Hon ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: We can’t hear the hon Mathevula.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mathevula!



Ms B T MATHEVULA: ... I like to know if there is a specific budget that you have put in assisting to detect illegal goods to enter the ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We cannot hear you, hon Mathevula



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Can you hear me now, Chair? But I can hear you, I do not know what is wrong.



AN HON MEMBER: No speak, member, speak, we can hear you.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: You can hear me? You can hear me, hon Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, you can ask your question now.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Okay, I want to ask the Minister whether there is a specific budget that they have put in place to



purchase those technologies, scanners, in assisting in detecting illegal goods to enter this country? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Well, that, as I have said, is a cross-functional responsibility. We do not purchase scanners as a department. That is the responsibility of the Sars and other entities that ensure that those scanners are at the ports of entry. We need technology for detection that is different from the scanners that you find at the ports of entry.



For instance, our capabilities with regard to satellite technology and other technologies that could assist in detecting goods and people as they come in and out of the country. So we do have a budget. I do not have the figures right now that I could share with you because we are in the process of reprioritising our budget taking into account that there have been budgetary cuts occasioned by the prioritisation of the fight against COVID-19.



Ms A D MALEKA Thank you, House Chair and thank you, hon Minister, for your diligent responses to the questions, I want to check, does the South African state security



singularly or in the context of the security cluster have any collaboration with foreign security agencies to detect, track and combat the transportation of illegal goods through our ports of entry? If not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details? Thank you, House Chair.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, we do have relationships with partners across the world. We have collaborative efforts in terms of the sharing of information with the various countries that border South Africa, but also countries that do not border South Africa on a periodic basis.



We would be in touch with foreign intelligence services to share information on a range of issues which might include what it is that we are discussing following this question. But we must also understand that with the other entities as well those relationships also exist with defence intelligence, crime intelligence through Interpol as well has those relationships. So within the cluster we do have those relationships with our counterparts and foreign intelligence services to be precise. Thank you.



Question 48:


The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, the State Security Agency, SSA, has launched investigations into apparent corrupt networks operational within its agencies, which networks have been recurring over a period of many years, resulting in serious economic losses to the state.



The scope of investigations has pointed to the involvement of a number of people, some of which would have been referred to in the question. The aforementioned individuals are included in the inquiry lodged with the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, the DPCI, in 2019. The matter is receiving attention from state law enforcement agencies and, in addition to that, the members of the network are also being investigated with one individual having been dismissed by the SSA, and criminal proceedings are continuing.



As the investigations are ongoing, further details cannot be shared at this stage. However, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and the Inspector-General of Intelligence have been briefed about this. Thank you.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I stand corrected ... [Inaudible.] ... the person that I referred to is being included in the investigation. Thank you for that. My follow-up question is: Is there an indication that any of the millions misappropriated have been tracked down and can be recovered? Also, Minister, wouldn’t it be appropriate for this person to be suspended, as this person is now a director-general in another government department? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The issue of the recovery of money that was stolen from the agency over time is part of the ongoing investigations that are under way. That can only happen once the investigations have progressed to the level at which individuals would be asked to pay back the money, but also in terms of prescripts and protocols that relate to asset forfeiture and the recovery of proceeds from crime.



It is not my place to talk about people in other departments or people I have no jurisdiction over in terms of appointment and their career incidents. So I am not able to answer that question. It can be referred to the relevant authorities.

Thank you.



Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Minister. My question is: Does the Ministry have any plans in place to take the public into its confidence at the right time so that an ongoing investigation will not be compromised in terms of the details related to the outcome of an investigation? If not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? Thank you, Chair.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Thank you very much, hon member. We have no authority to take the public into our confidence with ongoing investigations. That is something that is not done, and I wouldn’t want to do that. It is the responsibility of other entities of state to do that should questions arise, but we are not responsible for the investigations.



I must say, though, that as and when we do receive information and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence sits and asks questions, we will be able to respond to that.



Question 32:


The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The renewal, reorganisation and repurposing the



State Security Agency involves a set of interventions, most of which are captured as our commitments in the budget policy statement delivered in May 2019.



Some of these strategic interventions include rebuilding the image and professionalising the agency, strengthening governance and internal administrative systems, combating corruption in both the public and private sector, strengthening collaboration and planning within and outside the agency, and expediting the implementation of the recommendations of the high-level review panel on state security.



On rebuilding the image and professionalising the agency, we have undertaken a number of actions that include boosting staff morale, which has been at an all-time low as a result of a number of factors in the agency. Among these factors are longstanding grievances and appeals, the filling of long- standing vacant posts, the placement of unplaced members and the general welfare of members in terms of benefits ... [Inaudible.]



To date, we have placed most of our senior managers in vacant positions, including the placement of deputy directors- general which the President has signed off on. We are now in the final stage of filling the post of head of the foreign branch which will be done in the next few weeks, and we will soon be concluding the appointment of the director-general.



We have also completed the first phase of the process of a skills audit, which has given us a sense of levels of qualifications in the organisation. The next step will be to look at the skills profile, linking that to the issue of recognition of prior learning. Most members, though, have the experience which needs to be aligned through the process of reskilling, training and further development.



We have also done a lot of work to revitalise the Intelligence Academy and to refine its focus and mandate as a repository of skills for the agency. We have appointed the head of the academy, and we are at an advanced stage of finalising the new training and development strategy. We have also appointed members of the Ministerial Advisory Committee on Training to advise and guide the appropriate research, training and development interventions in the agency.



Work is under way to address the strengthening of governance and internal administrative systems. We have finalised the setting up of most governance structures, including the Intelligence Services Council on conditions of service, ministerial appeals, panels on vetting, grievances and disciplinary matters in the agency. Compliance structures, including audit and risk committees, have also been strengthened to attend to the shortcomings, as identified by the Auditor-General.



We have already engaged the Department of Public Service and Administration to develop the ethics and integrity framework, which will assist us in dealing with issues of ethical conduct within the organisation.



Our discussions with the Public Service Commission are at an advanced stage on the disclosure of interests by members of the agency. I have recently directed the re-vetting of all our senior managers in the agency. I hope that in the next few days the director-general will implement this directive.



Work is therefore at an advanced stage towards the creation of a new intelligence service, which will be geared towards



responding to the new global threats and challenges while addressing the issues identified in the high-level-panel review report. The five-year strategic plan that we have now developed aims to address all of this.



The challenges in this regard include the lack of adequate human, financial and technological capacity of the agency to respond, especially to the new threats in the national and global environments; and notably our technological capacity to combat the new and advanced threats posed by cybercrime and by human and illicit drug trafficking, including threats emanating from climate change. In this regard, we need to beef up our capacity to better define our approach to this whole set of new and hybrid threats that face our country.



Finally, we have to face the reality that the risks of security and stability are only multiplying and getting more and more complex. We thus have to do more with fewer resources, which calls on us not just to strengthen our budgeting and expenditure focus, but also to improve the quality of product that we churn out. Thank you.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you thank you very much, Chair of Chairs. I would like to thank the Minister for her response. The Minister has indicated the issue of the reskilling and retraining of staff. For me what is key is recruitment in order to fill key positions within the department. I would like to know if the department has the budget to do so. Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you for the question. Hon Chairperson, at the moment we are looking at what we have currently. This is because of the budgetary constraints that I have spoken about. We have not looked at embarking on a massive recruitment drive. For those areas where there are critical skills that we do not have, obviously we will go out and recruit and find the necessary skills sets and the individuals who would be able to fill those particular vacancies.



But, as of now – with the skills audit and with the work that has currently been done and that is under way – we will be able to unearth the talent that is latent in the organisation, which talent has not been given the opportunity to show its prowess and show South Africans that we have the



skills sets in the organisation. We have people at lower levels who cannot assume higher positions, because the rules do not allow for that. They have the skills, they have the attitude which is good, and they have the aptitude, but, unfortunately, the system does not allow for that. So one of the things that we are doing is to reflect, again, on the rules and the policies of the organisation that speak to issues of promotion, that speak to issues of performance management and that speak to the redeployment of skills to the places at which they are best suited. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. The next supplementary question is from the hon Dangor. Hon Dangor? Hon Dangor?



Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, thank you very much. Sometimes technology challenges us. Hon Minister, the question I would like to pose is this: Regarding the academy, are we now looking at training in languages in the foreign branch and at training in local skills and norms in order to understand the countries where people are being deployed to?



Minister, I don’t want to ask you any further questions,


because I don’t want to compromise operational things. Sometimes the question we need to ask ourselves in the NCOP – when we are posing questions to your department – is whether we are asking questions that could compromise operational issues. Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you very much, hon Dangor. As I said earlier, we are reviewing our curriculum. We are also talking to institutions that we want to partner with. For instance, we are talking to the University of Potchefstroom about two programmes that we would like to introduce into our curriculum. We are also talking to other institutions to offer the types of courses that we would need.



On the language issue, I am not sure whether we have looked at that, but I do know that we will be sending people to various countries so that they can get the skills and learn the cultures of the countries they will be working in. At some point I will come back to you on the language issue, because I really am not sure whether we are offering language courses at the academy.



It would make sense and maybe it is something that we should be looking at. But even if we do not offer language courses at the academy, we could be talking to universities that offer languages, so that our people can learn more languages and, when deployed, be able to use languages in the countries that they are deployed in.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chair. The President, as indicated in the original question, stated in his state of the nation address that the security of South Africa’s people should be administered and executed in line with the core constitutional mandate.



In the current COVID-19 crisis, the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, or NatJOINTS, serves as the backbone of the National Coronavirus Command Council in drafting plans and operationalising them for the National Coronavirus Command Council. These plans should serve and be adopted by Cabinet.



Minister, is this process, which has been verified ... [Inaudible.] ... to justify the fact that Cabinet is a



subcommittee of Cabinet in itself, not in contradiction with the statement the President himself made. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon member, I don’t think that that is necessarily true, because the type of work that NatJOINTS embarks upon goes beyond issues of security. It is about the collation of information; it’s about the dissemination of information; it’s about research that helps us to make better decisions as the National Coronavirus Command Council; it’s about us talking to other countries to beef up the work that we do. An example of this is Italy which has reached out to us to share information with us. I can cite other countries that have done the same.



So the NatJOINTS sits there to provide the necessary support that the National Coronavirus Command Council requires for it to be able to deliberate over issues and take the correct decisions. So I wouldn’t think that it’s a structure that you put in the light in which you put it. It’s more a structure that assists us in making the correct decisions in discerning issues that afflict our people in this time of the coronavirus, and that also looks at a wide range of issues that could help us to ramp up a lot of things, including the



hospital system, including the researching capacity of our state – mapping out the capabilities that exist in the state. So it is a plethora of activities that happen there that help us to make the correct decisions.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, we know that there is a lot of work that needs to be done ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Arnolds ...



Mr A ARNOLDS: Can you hear me, Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay. Hon Minister?



Mr A ARNOLDS: Can you hear me, Chairperson? Chairperson, can you hear me?



An HON MEMBER: You are audible, hon Arnolds.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Arnolds?



Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, we all know that there is a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of



boosting the morale of staff in order to execute your mandate efficiently. What was also highlighted in the high-level- panel review report was your capacity gaps at your provincial and foreign offices. I think we just need you to give us an update on how these capacity gaps in people, finances and other resources will be addressed. Thanks.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Arnolds, for the question. We have been looking at provinces and their capacity. It does not look right when you have a head office that has more people than the provinces have. In the next few days I will be appointing two heads of provinces where we have vacancies for the heads of the stations, and also at beefing up capacity for collection and analysis in the various provinces. So you will see a move of people from head office who will go down to provinces and beef up capacity in provinces. The budget will also follow those individuals, because we will have to ensure that there is budget for operations that is commensurate with the type of issues that provinces are supposed to deal with. So you correctly identified a problem area where head office is top- heavy and we should be disseminating both capacity in terms



of human resources and budgetary capacity to provinces, and that is under way.



Question 6:


The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: The State Security Agency has been working tirelessly in reducing the vetting backlog in respect of senior officials and executives at state-owned entities, SOEs, but also in relation to all state institutions. The announcement by the President at the state of disaster in March 2020 and ensuing the lockdown delayed the vetting process. The vetting process requires the free movement of the vetting officers to meet with reference of vetting applicants which was not possible under the current circumstances.



The conducting of polygraph tests that are compulsory for top secret and secret clearances is also affected given the nature of covid-19 tests that do not allow for physical distancing. Covid-19 also impacted negatively on the human resources at SAA to attend to the vetting hence the situation remains unchanged.



SOEs that have been prioritised for vetting include Eskom, Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, Transnet, SABC and SAA was halted given the developments within that sector. Thank you very much.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Hon Chairperson, thank you to the Minister in terms of the response, it was clear. Let me also ask and say something about the SOEs that are not adhering to the process now. What are you going to do if there are people who do not want to adhere to those processes?



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, you know we have had problems in the past where people do not want to and we always pass the information through to either the accounting officer, the executive authority or the accounting authority in the case of the SOEs. All we can do really is to pass the information on but the responsibility is with them to implement the recommendations that come from the State Security Agency.



In the process that we have embarked upon of reviewing our regulations including legislation as well, we are muting the possibility of including penalties that would approve to



those who do not adhere to the regulations that would be passed that make it difficult for people to adhere to the recommendations that come out of the vetting processes.



Just by way of example, you will remember the case of Uyinene Mrwetyana where the employee of a post office killed her. We had sent information to the department to say that individual did not pass the vetting but the post office employed that individual nonetheless and the rest is history. So, we are serious about this and we are drafting the regulations on vetting investigations. We are beefing up our capacity by developing an e-vetting system.



What we have also done so that the burden is lessened from our side, on the ordinary security screening that departments can do - we are now giving that responsibility back to the departments to do the pre-screening before appointments which would mean that you look at the qualifications, whether the person has a criminal record and also talk to the referees, that the individuals would have given in his CV. All of those issues we are now saying that the departments must look into that.



But one of the things that I am also looking at hon Arnold is that State Security Agency should really be the one that sits with the departments when departments appoint security managers, whether it is in the SOE or the department. I remember there was a time when former Minister Trevor Manuel gave all of us, in provinces, CFOs because there was a serious problem in provinces of accountability but also in terms of performance management from a financial perspective. He hired CFOs for departments and those CFOs were given to the various departments. It is something that I am mulling over that we might have to implement but looking at former members who have reached the age of 60 years but have not reached the age of 65 years who will be employed under the Public Service Act to them go to into the departments and do the work we would the departments to look into when they hire security managers. Those people are at director level by the way and there is a lot of things that need to be done by those people to assist the work of the department in terms of the intelligence but also our work as the department. Thank you.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, hon Minister has referred to regulations. My question is, has the minimum information



security standards been reviewed and when will it be done and when will the regulations or that all the regulations you refereed to be finalised to be more helpful in vetting the personnel and specifically the senior personnel in SOEs and normal government departments?



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair, we are appointing a team from within the organisation and also from outside to look at the various regulations that we have in line with the issues that were raised and flagged by the High Level Panel Review Report but also the Pikoli Report and also the Joe Mathews Report. Some of the regulations are a bit outdated.

Miss is a problem with all good intentions, no adherence to it, no repercussions, no recourse where people do not abide to the regulations.



We have decided that these regulations must be reviewed. The team is going to be appointed before the end of this month and will start its work in earnest so that it will be able to go ahead with the issue of implementing the regulations that will help us to manage the information.



Question 50:



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, the following areas have been identified by the High Level Panel Review Report. As I said earlier we are not only looking at the review of the High Level Panel Review Report but at all other inquiries that have embarked on with an effort to deal with inadequacies and upgrading of systems within the organisation.



We have looked at some of them and realised that if they have implemented at the time at which they were recommended this organisation would not be sitting in the position that it is sitting at. So, it is not only the ones that have been identified in the High Level Panel Review Report but there are others that have been identified in the other reports as well.



So, on the separation of the State Security Agency there has been a significant progress in this regard. The draft Bill has been developed but there is still a bit of work that we are looking at. We have been in discussions with the President on some of the issues that we want to see in the process of separation. So, that is the process that is involved.



On investigations progress was made in respect to investigations and over 70% of the cases that are being investigated have now been reported to the law enforcement agencies. The process is no longer with us. On government structure, I have appointed the ministerial advisory committee on training, the appeals panel, the Intelligence Council on Conditions of Service, ICCS Council that deals with conditions of service.



I am looking at, as I said, putting a together a team that will look into the refinement of regulations, but also looking at regulations as to whether or not they would serve the purpose of getting to where we would want to be at as an organisation. We also put together the team that is looking at the vetting processes and also employment of systems that we do not currently have and the development of those systems for e-vetting.



We have embarked on the provincial roadshows in consultation together with the staff council. The Minister and the Deputy undertook the roadshows to provinces as part of the organisational rebuilding process. This focussed on employee wellness with the view to improve staff morale. We have done



the skills audit, as I said earlier on and we are correcting the wrongs that have affected the State Security Agency all the time and this is a complex and long process that also requires rethinking the necessary interventions that should prevent the abuses that have occurred in the past from recurring.



The task also requires collaboration with other entities of state notably the law enforcement agencies and as I said, the Department of Science and Technologies, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, and other entities of state. A lot of things that we have to do obviously require money and I have stated that the fact that we are all sitting in a position where we have to chop slice because of the coronavirus issue to fund the efforts of the National Coronavirus Command Council, the prevention with regards to the coronavirus.



The limited resources at our disposal means that the road is going to be hard and in this regard we have to be more proficient with less resources. Thank you very much.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much Minister for that comprehensive answer. I would like to know the areas that these jobs are mentioned. I assume or rather I would accept that it does not mean that nothing has been done to them but I would like to highlight the role of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, I would like to refer to the National Security Strategy of 2013. In one of the previous questions you referred to the intelligence environment. I would like to refer to the development of the guidelines to illegal orders and those kind of things. When will that be dealt with and what is the time frame for the department to conclude with all of this changes and recommendations at this stage? Thank you Chair.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Labuschagne, through you Chairperson, the National Security Strategy was supposed to be finalised in the last financial year. Unfortunately, that did not happen because without the new National Security Strategy that looks at the new threats, the hybrid threats that the world faces today, the cybercrimes and the cyber security issues it becomes a little difficult to go ahead and pronounce certain interventions when the National Security Strategy has not been finalised.



I was reliably informed by the director-general today when I ask a question about this that in the next two months because the process had already begun, the strategy would have been finalised. Nicoc remains the way it is and we are appointing, as in tomorrow, a deputy co-ordinator for Nicoc. As you would know, it is a structure that comprises people that come from State Security Agency, from Defence and from police. So, that structure is in place and we are just appointing the deputy co-ordinator tomorrow and they would resume duties.



Question 31:


The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: South Africa's policy and legislative response to cybercrime is provided for in the following policy and legal instruments: The Electronic Communications and Transactions Act, Act 25 of 2002, the National Strategic Intelligence Act, Act 39 of 1994, the 2012 Cabinet approved National Cybersecurity Policy Framework. The approach adopted by government in mitigating the impact of cybercrime in the country relies on collaboration and co- operation. In this regard the National Cybersecurity Policy Framework, NCPF establishes institutional capacities involving the Cybersecurity Response Committee, an interdepartmental body that is chaired by the Director-



General of State Security Agency, SSA, a Cybersecurity Centre led by the State Security Agency again and a Government Computer Security Incident Response Team also led by the SSA, the National Cybercrime Centre, led by the SA Police Service, a Cyber Command led by the Department of Defence and Military Veterans, a Cyber Hub led by the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, and sector specific computer security incident response teams.



The Cybersecurity Response Committee in the main, drives the implementation of the National Cybersecurity Policy Framework. It also co-ordinates cybersecurity activities pertaining to national security, as well as guides functioning ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, you have muted, unmute.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: My apologies, my apologies Chair. The NCPF mandates the SSA staff.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister!



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Yes, Chairperson. Can you hear me? The NCPF mandates the SA to establish the Cyber



Security Centre to ensure the protection of national critical infrastructures. The NCPF a further mandates the SSA to establish a government response team, to ensure the protection of networks and systems of organs of state. The SSA, as the lead department of cybersecurity in the Justice Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS cluster is also mandated to develop and implement the National Cybersecurity Strategy that is currently being consulted upon. The cybersecurity centre performs, the following function: Prevention and detection of cyberattacks, analysis of cybersecurity incidents, trends, vulnerabilities and threats to national security, investigation of cybersecurity incidents and their impact on national security, dissemination of threat warning information through alerts and warnings, co-ordination of cybersecurity incident response activities, development of response protocols to guide co-ordinated responses to cybersecurity incidents and interaction with various stakeholders, setting of cyber security standards and validation, evaluation and certification of Information and



Communications Technology, ICT security products and services.



The NCPF mandates the SA Police Service to establish a National Cyber Security Centre that is responsible for providing technical support to law enforcement agencies in the fight against various forms of cybercrimes. The support from information sharing with other security agents on cybercrime trends, gathering of relevant evidence, as well as providing a potential support to the judicial process. It also envisaged that the National Communication Centre will act as a 24/7 point of contact regarding matters relating to cybercrime, as well as develop and maintain cross border law enforcement co-operation in respect to cybercrimes.



The NCPF mandates the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, DCDT to establish a Cybersecurity Hub that serves as a platform to promote public private partnerships. In this regard the hub encourages and facilitates the establishment of sector-based Computer Security Incident Response Teams, CSIRT activities. The hub also promotes cybersecurity awareness programmes among the general public in partnership with the private sector.



The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, which is part of the Cybersecurity Response Committee, CRC leads the harmonisation of pieces of security, cybersecurity legislation, the Cybercrimes Bill that is before Parliament, and this is essential to address cybercrime and to protect critical information infrastructure. The Cybersecurity Centre is capable of providing all cybersecurity related services to organs of state, in accordance with its mandate.



However, the lack of ICT infrastructure, cybersecurity tools and requisite skills, hamstring service efforts in the following manner: The ICT infrastructure is obsolete and as such is incapable of handling the current demands. Lack of cybersecurity tools, impact the ability to respond to all the requests from organs of state, and the Cybersecurity Centre lacks current and the cutting edge skills.



The State Security Agency is in the process of developing a national security strategy, as I alluded earlier on, which will address, amongst others, the country's comprehensive response to cybersecurity. What is also at an advanced stage is to finalise the National Critical Information Bill, which will guide the input of cyber security centre in carrying out



its mandate. Furthermore, after the approval the National Cyber Security Policy Framework, a process for the development of the Cybercrimes and Cyber Security Bill of 2017 was initiated. The said Bill was adopted by Parliament and has recently been presented to the National Council of Provinces. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you Chair, let me also appreciate the comprehensive response, given by the Minister on the question that I posed. Hon Chair, I believe that this matter of the cybercrime has been thoroughly canvassed today, even with the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, she also shed light on what are the instruments that we can use. In addition to that, the fact that the Select Committee on Security and Justice adopted the report on the Cybercrimes Bill on 12 June is a matter before us. I am happy with the response, hon Chair. I have no follow up questions to make.

Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much hon House Chair. Hon Minister just a comment, I think the worst thing that could happen to South Africa in terms of cybersecurity, is for all the authority around this matter to be based within your



opaque department. But, be that as it may, my question is how often do you meet with your Cabinet colleagues, whose departments are overseeing aspects of cybersecurity, to discuss these matters. Do have a standing meeting agreement to this purpose, or is it done on an ad hoc basis? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chair. I am not sure what opaque department means but I will leave it at that. The National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, NATJOINTS, does meet. The centres that have been highlighted in what I have given you here also do meet from time to time, the fora that have been established, also do meet from time to time. The Director-General, DG of SSA is the one that chairs the bulk of these meetings. The National Communication Centre, which is part of brand SSA, also chairs some of the meetings. So there is constant collaboration with Sector Education and Training Authority, Seta and the Department of Telecommunications and Digital Technologies. So it is not ad hoc work, it is work that is continuing, scheduled meetings do sit. As and when there are problems that occur, there are meetings that are called for us to discuss these issues. Thank you.



Mr M S SHACKLETON (Special delegate Gauteng): Thank you very much, House Chair, through you to the Minister of State Security. My question is short and sweet. Minister, why is there still no national public awareness campaign to curb the negative effects of cybercrime? Thank you, House Chair.



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: I think earlier on Chair, I did read from the script that we had prepared here about whose responsibility it is to do the advocacy work and also awareness to the public on these matters. It is a joint effort between the Cybersecurity Hub and also the private sector. It is not the responsibility of the SSA to do that. Thank you Chair.



Mr D R RYDER: Thank you very much, House Chair and Minister thank you. The National Cyber Security Policy Framework is a 2015 document. Will it be translated into a revised proper national cybersecurity strategy document soon, and will such a document be made public similar to what other countries have done? Thank you, Chair,



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: In the cyberspace and also in ICT, policies and frameworks are revised from time to time.



In the development, as I said earlier on of our national security strategy those are the issues that we seek to address. It is also addressed in the in the pieces of legislation that are before Parliament as we speak, the Cybercrime Bill and also the Bill that has been passed recently, the Critical Infrastructure Protection Bill, which also deals with issues of cybersecurity. It is ongoing work, it would never stop, because technology moves on a day to day basis, there is updates, there is new threats. The National Security Strategy, also addresses the need for us to continuously look at updating our pieces of legislation and policy.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Honourable Minister, allow me honourable members on behalf of the leadership of the NCOP led by hon Masondo and the Deputy Chair and

...[Inaudible]... hon Dlodlo for availing yourself to deal with questions in the National Council of Provinces. That concludes the business of the day today. The House is adjourned.



The Council adjourned at 18:49.



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