Hansard: NA: Mini-plienary

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 11 Jul 2019


No summary available.













Members of the mini-plenary session met in the National Assembly Chamber at 16:30.



House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.






Debate on Vote No 23 and 20 – Police (including Independent Police Investigative Directorate):



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers present, hon Deputy Ministers, chairperson of the portfolio committee and members of the portfolio committee, hon MECs present, Members of



Parliament, heads of entities, DPCI Judge, ... of staff, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, sanibonani, dumelang, molweni, avuxeni.



Chairperson, I ascend this podium this afternoon tabling the Budget Vote of a highly contested territory to date, not only in our country but across international borders. Truth is as law abiding citizens we are sharing the space with criminal underworld operatives who pay no tax, possess no visas and have no Auditor-Generals, they just use their budget wily nily.



This so called ‘parallel governance structure’ is hell-bent to frustrate, kill and destroy our children, women and every moral fibre in our communities. Be that as it may, I stand here today to reiterate a progressive notion that says ‘An Epitome of Safety and Security in any country is when people feel safe’.

Hence I call upon South Africans to work with us in squeezing the space for criminals.



Hon members, in recent years the tide of crime statistics in our country has revealed a dreadful trend, with alarming levels of



both contact and trio crimes under the veil of ‘violence’ being the common denominator in the whole chain. This talks directly to the target set by his Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa, to half violent crimes in the next decade. Equally, the directive comes at the backdrop of many voices of wailing parents, communities, women and children as well as all other vulnerable groups.



Chairperson, we are confronted with a sad reality of multiple burial activities in cemeteries than new-borns in maternity wards. The recurring scenes of scattered dead bodies in the streets of Phillipi, Mitchells Plain and Nyanga are unbearable. It is on that score that I challenge all generals in the SA Police Services, SAPS, to surrender their uniforms if this situation does not improve. [Applause.] The battle ahead of us requires a dedicated and selfless workforce that is equal to the task.



Therefore, chairperson, as architects entrusted with such an enormous responsibility to design the South Africa that we want, allow me for the second time to dedicate this Budget Vote to



crimes against women, children and the vulnerable groups. The subject of gender-based violence talks to the hearts and minds of all of us. We cannot rest when women and children, wives, daughters, grandmothers and girlfriends are raped and brutally murdered in cold blood by those they love and at times known in their neighbourhoods.



Hon members, allow me to table a summary of successes and achievements linked to 2018/19 Budget Vote:



Firstly, we have created a response to violent public protest. We have established the Public Order Policing, POP, capacity that has been resourced in the amount of R655 million.



Secondly, the Tactical Response Teams, TRTs, and Tracking Teams. The training and retraining of TRTs is in progress to date is at R18 million.



Thirdly, Cash-In-Transit heists. Increased resource deployment contributed positively towards the significant reduction in CITs. The following financial allocations were made to address



CIT-related crimes: R50 million for high performance vehicles and R33 million for deployment and overtime.



Lastly, combating gangsterism. The launch of the Anti-Gang Unit was a major highlight in this regard. Financial allocations to address gangsterism: R120 million was spent on deployments for Operation Thunder in the Western Cape and R18 million in addition for vehicles to the Western Cape Anti-Gang Unit.



Regarding promotion of SAPS members; you remember that we made the announcement that we had 69 000 overdue members to be promoted? Yes, last year out of 69 000 members we promoted

28 067 members through grade progression with a budget of


R557 million. This year we will further promote 20 000 members for grade progression with the budget of R773 million. The remainder of 17 000 will be promoted in progression next year, 2020, so that we close the number of 69 000 of those people who were not promoted when they were supposed to be promoted.



Regarding the SAPS budget for 2019, the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, budget amounts are R97,5 billion for 2019-20.



SAPS compensation of employees will reach R87,2 billion which happen to be R78 million going forward.



Department’s spending over the medium-term will be in relation to the core programmes with Visible Policing more than 51% weight of total vote in the 2019-20 financial year.



The SAPS has an obligation to maintain peace and public order before, during and after all the elections. Accordingly, additional funding of R180 million for compensation of employees has been allocated for that.



The multi-year budget of the SAPS will built further on the priorities already funded and identified as to sustain the level of services rendered. Cabinet has approved reductions to the department’s baseline amount of R1,5 billion. So, it’s important that while this budget is there, but there’s been a reduction on the budget going forward.



Five hundred and fifty million rand over the medium-term is reduced across all programmes from non-core goods and services



items due to the implementation of cost-containment measures. Sixty million rand over the MTEF period is reprioritised from the Criminal Justice System programme, CJS.



Regarding the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, the fight against corruption is currently intensified, the Hawks are making serious inroads in economic crimes and we are witnessing significant arrests in this regard. To date, 1 800 dockets have been submitted to the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA for determination. [Applause.] So, we are taking it forward.



Regarding the establishment of the detective academy, we believe that we need to sharpen our skills, especially with the Hawks and the detectives. Therefore, detective academy will be established that will specialise in training in that level for those kinds of people so that they are able to deal with the situations.



We are working on the firearm amnesty due to the proliferation of illegal firearms which are a major contributor to crime levels. We are in a process to approach Cabinet to consider a



Firearm Amnesty period with an objective aimed at reducing the number of illegal firearms, provide firearm owners with the opportunity to hand in unwanted and illegal firearms, prevent crime and violence and promote safety, address the fundamental causes of crime in order to effectively protect our communities and ensure that people living in South Africa are safe.



We are making a call for action to the community to make use of this opportunity since we are going to have no mercy when we deal with any unlawful possession of firearms. [Applause.] After this period, and you haven’t brought your illegal firearm or any firearm that might be dangerous, there won’t be peace. [Interjections.] I mean it, exactly that.



The reduction of crime levels, specifically the trio crimes and crimes against women and children, including domestic violence which despite continued success during the past, remain a challenging task given the prevailing socioeconomic conditions in the country. This is an objective that SAPS cannot achieve on its own and it will require an integrated approach involving all



communities and spheres of government.



Regarding the police visibility and training of new recruits, remember that the President did give the figures here? That at the present moment we are low in our figures. The international standard, according to United Nations, is that the ratio of policing should be one to 220. In South Africa we are one to 383, we are almost double. That’s why then we are increasing the intake of the members. [Applause.] This year we have 5 000 in the colleges, next year we’ll have 7 000 and the outer year we’ll have 7 000. And then we’ll be increasing these numbers going forward to work on the visibility of the police. [Applause.] Also, we’ll be working better in terms of multiple approaches working with the Metro Police and make sure that everybody can see that we are on the ground.



We’ll be improving the infrastructure and we need to build more police stations. What we’ll be doing with the police stations is that we are going to stop building the university police stations; but we want to build medium police stations all over, where people live so that people can be able to walk to the



police stations. [Applause.] So that the police stations are established in the middle of the communities, where they are.



Extensive technological advancement in the fight against crime is crucial. The Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster departments will set aside dedicated funding to improve technology that will drastically reduce all priority crimes.

Automated systems will be introduced in certain environments to improve efficiency. The world revolves around technology and no country will succeed in the fight against crime without significant investment in technology. This instruction has gone and is very clear, you can’t arrest a person for drinking and driving in Paarl then after three hours, as the law says, we let the person go and yet at uMhlabuyalingana we want the person for two murders. So, the systems of the police must talk to all of us wherever we are so that it’s easy to detect all the criminals, wherever they are in the country. [Applause.]



Regarding the Anti-Gang Unit; in responding directly to the scourge of gangsterism, the Anti-Gang Unit will be elevated to a national unit under Operational Response Services, ORS, and the



other specialised unit will be introduced. This unit will extend its mandate and join other specialized units to deal with other crimes of fear that are terrorising our communities. These include murder, rape, car hijackings, house robberies, house burglaries and cash-in-transit heists.



So, it has been in the Western Cape domain but we have agreed that this gangsterism is spreading all over the country; you find it in the northern areas in Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape, Westbury in Eldorado Park and even in the outskirt areas of Limpopo, you are beginning to see them. So, we want a national approach in fighting gangsterism.



Gender based violence is unacceptably high in the Republic of South Africa which inhibits women’s ability to enjoy rights and freedom on the basis of equality of men.



There are currently 185 Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences, FCS, Units which creates a specialist investigative environment to deal with gender-based violent



crimes including sexual offences, with a focus on serial rape- related cases.



Furthermore, the Police have established 1 047 dedicated victim friendly facilities at police stations countrywide to accommodate and assist victims.



Gender-based violence continues to be a serious challenge engulfing our society.



In the next few months we intend to increase the number of the FCS units and to recruit and train more women to work within the environment. Train more women to deal with the cases of rape because I always imagine how painful it is for any raped woman to go and explain to the men how was she raped. So, it’s better if it is a woman officer who is dealing with it. So, we will be training more of them. [Applause.]



In the financial year of 2018-19 the number of people convicted and sentenced for various gender-based violence cases. It is worth mentioning that during the same period 399 people were



sentenced to 656 life sentences for rape. So, the fear at the present is that the SA Correctional Services will be full of the lifers. You might not have any new space because everybody is getting life sentence now for abusing women. [Applause.]



Chairperson, allow me to share a good story of one member, Warrant Officer Tlala Mokoena. He’s one investigator whose quality of investigations and successful convictions has restored the confidence in the police. Mokoena is a young detective in the FCS Unit in the Gauteng province and he’s behind the conviction of Soweto taxi rapist, Gift Lebohang Mokwena in 2017. He also previously arrested a suspect for rape and managed to link that suspect to 92 other rape cases. [Applause.]            The suspect is currently serving a hefty 105 years behind bars. At least five other serial rapists are serving time behind bars thanks to Warrant Officer Mokoena who ensured multiple life sentences against several serial rapists who had been terrorising women. Fortunately, he received his award from the National Commissioner last year.



Warrant Officer Mokoena was promoted by the National Commissioner, from Constable to Warrant Officer for the good job he has done.



Lieutenant Colonel Joyce Busisiwe Buthelezi is stationed at Criminal Record and Crime Scene Management, Investigative Psychology Section of Division Forensic Services. With 33 years working as a detective and specialising in psychologically motivated crimes. Chairperson, another good story to tell is that of imbokodo Lt Colonel Buthelezi secured a conviction of Mlungisi Mtshali, a birthday serial rapists who raped 20 university students and was sentenced to 39 life imprisonment sentences. [Applause.] So, thanks to ... I hear people talking that police are doing nothing and they forget that there are such beautiful and good human beings within this organisation.



There are many others, I just selected these two stories.



Furthermore, in a separate case Lieutenant Colonel Buthelezi was instrumental in the Waterloo serial rapist Bheki Doctor Magwaza. The serial rapist started to commit crime in 2008 and was



arrested in 2016. He raped 15 victims and amongst the victims there was a 16-year old who was with a friend coming from a study group. The rapist was Fidelity guard security in Pinetown who was responsible to issue or book out firearms to other securities at his workplace and used them to crime.



There are top crimes manufacturing stations in the country. In the top 10, six of them are in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] As an immediate base, we will be responding and we are responding to this. [Interjections.] We are making sure that South Africans understand one thing; it’s not only the policing and the police that deal with crime. One thing that the Western Cape and those that are shouting they will have to help us on, is to work together with us to deal with environmental design. If you come to this city and you go to the places that those who live here don’t know, I’ve been in Philippi, Stalo, everywhere, what happens there is that there is no light whatsoever, there are no cameras whatsoever, there are no housing there, you can’t go in the middle of the night. Let’s work together rather than making pa pa pa [Applause.] [Interjections.] Let’s work together on this matter and make



sure that we save our people. Help us, come with us, let’s make that place liveable, put electricity there, put cameras there, put houses there, put roads there and make sure that people live like human beings not like donkeys. [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Crime intelligence is improving, we are very happy and we are beginning to curb some of the dangerous crimes.



Police killings is one thing we are dealing with and we want to make sure that this is reduced; technology will help us on this one.



We are as the SAPS working on the establishment of the medical wing within the SAPS. Because what happens is that the police go to dangerous operations, attacked there, takes long to go to the hospital and they die on the way. So, as they go for dangerous operations we want them to be accompanied by medical staff so that they are looked at as quick as possible, so that we reduced the number of casualties. [Applause.]



Hon members, we have the political killings in KwaZulu-Natal that we have made special policing in some areas like Westbury and others. And since the President established the Special Team

174 suspects have been arrested, 44 suspects are still in custody, 52 suspects are on bail and 29 convicted and amongst those 29 five of them are doing life sentence.



So, there is the secretariat that we are working together to improve on them. But, hon members, the continuous report on the alleged police corruption is receiving attention. Hence we are enhancing the capacity of Independent Police investigative Directorate, IPID, in this regard.



The process of the appointment of the IPID head is currently underway and we’ll finalise by the end of September. This will provide IPID with the necessary stability and proper management and administration.



The structural and operational independence of IPID will always be protected and safeguarded by the Ministry to allow IPID to discharge its responsibilities without fear, favour and



prejudice. To this end, IPID has referred 1 989 cases to NPA for prosecution.



Underfunding of IPID’s baseline budget over the years has not been adjusted to fully accommodate annual inflation growth, contractual obligations, workload and to allow for full implementation of IPID Act.



IPID’s growth is slow in terms of the budget but money that is there is R336,7 million that will be allocated to IPID.



I want to repeat, let’s stop playing with the lives of the people to make politics over the dead bodies [Interjections.] yes, those dead people. Unfortunately, even the MEC of this province can’t go and see them. I visited the families of the 15 dead people over the weekend [Interjections.] and then they did not come, they just don’t go to see them.



What happens is that they don’t even attend the mean mac meeting because they are on leave, as I was told, but when people die



they don’t go there. When TV comes they speak to TV about the dead people next door that they don’t know anything about.



So, I just want to make this call. Please, life will be better for those people if all levels, we work together to make sure the lives of those are taken care of and are protected. [Applause.]



That is an innocent call we are making as government to say let’s work together in this one. Lets not ... unfortunately, these people that are dying, I’ve never visited because nobody is dying in Constantia, Camps Bay [Interjections.] the problem

... the resources, your research tells us that the resources are skewed on the African and coloured areas, not in the Western Cape [Interjections.] yes, police resources, but in the white areas in Constantia they are fine, only in the African areas where they are not [Time expired.] Thank you very much.



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, why are you rising?



Ms P T VAN DAMME: I wanted, before he ran away, he was still there when I rose on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, what is the point of order?



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Chairperson, you should have asked him to sit down when I rose.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): NO, hon member. I’m presiding over this; you can take your seat please.



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Yes, but you let him finish.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat.



Ms P T VAN DAMME: You must be fair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat. The next speaker is the hon Joemat-Pettersson.



Ms T M JOEMAT-PETTERSSON: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Police and other Ministers, Deputy Minister of Police and other Deputy Ministers, MEC for safety, hon members of the National Assembly, Judges, National Commissioner of Police, members of community based organizations, senior managers, ladies and gentlemen.



Today, 11 July 2019, marks the 56 anniversary of the day the apartheid police raided the African National Congressman, the Liliesleaf farm in Rivonia, just outside Johannesburg, was the sight of this. Virtually the entire leadership of Umkhonto we Sizwe, MK, were arrested.



Today, because of the fights of these gallant heroes and heroines we can proudly say that: South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white. The Western Cape belongs to all who live in it, black and white. The type of national democratic society all South Africans deserve is a country where our



communities have been rid of the scourge of crime, gangsterism, drugs and violence against women and children. The theoretical and social underpinning to this articulation will form the basis of the work of the Portfolio Committee on Police.



Our President stated that violent crime must be halved over the next decade and importantly, that violent crime is a societal problem which requires a society-wide response, especially in the Western Cape. Several of the focus areas of the NDP were mentioned in the Sona, including the strengthening of the criminal justice system.



The Portfolio Committee on Police of this 6 Democratic Parliament will place enormous emphasis on the need for a new social compact and the forging of durable partnerships between government, communities, civil society, business, labor and the media. The National Development Plan strategic objectives and priorities for the 2019/20 financial year has been determined by the SAPS with the understanding that the current  year is the penultimate year of the 2014-2019 Medium Term            Strategic Framework, MTSF.



The National Development Plan priorities remain the key priorities of the SAPS and they include: Increasing police visibility by employing more policemen and policewomen, strengthening and resourcing the criminal justice system and the professionalization and demilitarization of the police service. The Portfolio Committee on Police had robust engagements with top management structure of the police service during the recent budget hearings.



 We noted progress made, but also recognised that much more needs to be done. We will continue to build on the gains made during the 5th Parliament. Over the past 18 months, leadership stability was strengthened in the police service, which will undoubtedly have a positive impact on service delivery. We thank the Minister for this.



 The appointment of the incumbent police commissioner has seen the ship steadied and a new management approach has been embarked upon. We commend the commissioner for this. The critical leadership areas for the SAPS remain the forensics



environment, financial management, supply chain management, SCM, and procurement as well as crime intelligence.



The Portfolio Committee on Police must continue to monitor these areas during this term. The key area of performance for the Civilian Secretariat remains the crafting of legislation to ensure a critical framework for the police portfolio and to provide the guiding principles for the police.



 We, as legislators, will that the Secretariat fulfill this crucial mandate effectively and efficiently. There are a number Acts that require the urgent attention of the Portfolio Committee. These Acts must take the changing socio-economic dynamic of our great nation into account. Most prominent amongst them is the South Africa Police Service Act, which predates our Constitution.



Over the years, sections have been amended on a piece meal basis and must now receive our full attention to bring it in-line with our Constitutional principles. We will support the strengthening of Community Police Forums and Safety Forums. These structures



play a vital role in a community-orientated police structure. Members of the community must know their neighbors and ‘look- out’ for each other. This must definitely apply to the Western Cape as well.



We believe that stipends to CPFs need urgent attention because these forums are critical to the realisation of the Vision 2030. Many critics say that the President is only dreaming that we can achieve a 50% reduction of violent crime over the next decade.


However, the reality is that if we take hands as a collective, we can achieve this and so much more.



Hon Chairperson, we are of the firm opinion that CPF Members must be considered when the SAPS recruit members and trainees, where they fulfill the required criteria, strictly on that basis. We want to urge CPF members to consider applying to become police trainees. The importance of including members of the CPFs who are at the forefront in fighting crime, cannot be over-emphasized.



Gender-based violence has reached crisis proportions. The fight against gender-based violence will be and must be intensified. We welcome the growing, diverse number of voices that are joining this fight. We believe in a multi-sectoral approach, which responds to the causes and effects of such violence, particularly issues of patriarchy, economic relations and changing the way of thinking about gender-relations.



Victim friendly rooms at all police stations are non-negotiable and we urge the police service to continue implementing this as new communities and new police stations start to mushroom. We will hold the police accountable in this respect. We will work with all stakeholders to take forward the outcomes of the 2018 Presidential Summit on Gender-Based Violence, and among other things, a national plan of action against gender-based violence. The Anti-Gang Unit, AGU and the Portfolio Committee on Police support the budget and the announcement of the Minister that Anti-Gang Units will be rolled-out countrywide.



This is a progressive development, Minister. All communities including the Western Cape should welcome this. Although the



predominant narrative is on the Cape Flats, gangsterism is a national problem. This narrative must be challenged.

Befittingly, the first fully functional Anti-Gang Unit was launched in Hanover Park, because of the intensity of gang violence in such areas.



The greater evils of poverty and unemployment are the root cause of these heinous crimes. The killings in the Western Cape must stop. The process of appointing the Executive Director of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate will be fast- tracked. The Portfolio Committee supports the work of lPlD. We believe that the Directorate is underfunded, which hampers effective service delivery. Funds must be made available to implement the Expansion Program of the Directorate so as to enable them to investigate the police in the most far-reaching areas of our country.



The Directorate must prioritise their commitment to an upgraded their case management system that can interface with that of the SAPS as well as the broader integrated criminal justice system. The lPlD is an integral part of the criminal justice



architecture and we support its functions to rid the police of corrupt and criminal elements. The accountability of police is paramount if we want to ensure that police services to the public are trusted.



We are confident that the IPID will be supported to fulfill its mandate. Our goal is to have a capable and ethical developmental state. Corruption is a crime. We will form a social compact with our people, to root out corruption and fight crime. The Portfolio Committee on Police supports the Minister and we thank the department for their fruitful presentations.



Mr A G WHITFIELD: Chairperson, before I begin, the shameful hypocrisy of the Minister cannot be overlooked, when the Minister say don’t play politics with the lives of the people yet every funeral and every single family he visits he has a media entourage bigger than the former Minister, “Mr Fix It”. [Interjections.] And I want to tell you something Mr Minister, today we have people dying in this province and across the country yet you see it fit to instruct the police to be sitting here in our gallery today while people are dying out in the



streets, that is playing politics with the lives of the people of this country. [Applause.]



I would like to extend my heartfelt condolences in the absence of the Minister’s condolences to the families of the victims of last week’s horrific gang violence in Philippi. May their souls rest in peace and may this Sixth Parliament not rest until we turn the tide on violent crime in South Africa. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the many honest and hardworking police and metro police officers across our country who serve with professionalism and pride on a daily basis. These brave men and women go to work every day to make South Africa a safer place to live for all of us and we owe them our sincere appreciation – thank you. [Applause.]



A special thank you must go to the thousands of dedicated members of community policing forums and neighbourhood watches who give up their time to keep their communities safe against overwhelming odds. I would also like to extend my gratitude to our short-staffed police reservists who volunteer to put their lives on the line but who are consistently underappreciated.



Our country is made up of many good, honest and hardworking people, whether they are volunteers, warrant officers or bookkeepers in the local police station, these are the real heroes serving on the frontlines of crime in our country.



The problem is that there are simply not enough of them and the ones that do exist are not recognised, nurtured and rewarded for their efforts. Last week, the National Police Commissioner told the portfolio committee that the current policing ratio in South Africa is one officer to every 383 citizens, the Minister confirmed that, whereas the United Nations standard is 1:220, and I must thank the Minister for inviting some of the trainees here today, and welcome the additions to the ranks. However, according to this ratio the SAPS is currently understaffed by 64 000 police officers – quite to be frank here with the greatest of respect, 5 000 police officers this year and 7 000 next year, then in this Sixth Parliament we won’t get to half that mark.



Earlier this week the Minister said that the SAPS was not losing the war on crime. However, in January this year the Police Commissioner went on record here in Parliament to say that the



SAPS is so inadequately resourced that it is impossible to fulfil its mandate. In spite of this alarming mixed messaging coming out of Pretoria, once all is said and done here this evening, this budget debate will ultimately find expression in communities like Bethelsdorp in Port Elizabeth’s northern areas and Arcadia in Humansdorp where people are being held hostage by rampant gang violence.



It is these communities, like many others, who feel the lack of visible policing and boots on the ground when this Parliament and the Minister do not do their jobs. While inadequate police resourcing affects communities across our country, it is a fact that it affects some provinces and precincts more than it does others.



Minister, in the Western Cape last year for example, half of all murders were recorded at only 13% of police stations and murder in Philippi East precinct has increased by 180% over the last five years. Yet over the past two years, the Western Cape provincial policing ratio has deteriorated from one police officer to every 385 people, down to one police officer to every



509 people, and in the last four years the Western Cape has lost


4 500 police officers. Where are they Minister?



Earlier today I joined the City of Cape Town metro police in Hanover Park to witness the excellent work that they are doing when responding to crime. As we arrived gun shots went off and the metro police were on-site within two minutes recovering live ammunition and empty shells from the shooting. Speaking to a resident clutching her grandchild she said that the SAPS is not visible. She wanted to know why it is that the metro police is always first to respond and not the SAPS. In fact, I saw more SAPS police vans parked outside this precinct today than I did the entire morning in Hanover Park. That is so much for the antigang unit and they don’t appear to be visible. The Minister speaks so much about local government and co-operation, yet the Western Cape government has for years tried to get the Minister’s co-operation, and he talks about local government at lighting and CCTV cameras. Well, I met a gentleman today when we were on patrol in Hanover Park who said that he has just witnessed a gangster vandalising cables that lead to a CCTV camera. Lights are vandalised by organised criminals to create a



conducive environment for crime; it’s a fact. So, let’s put the fact on the table, Mr Minister; and you should stop playing politics. While the Minister believes he is winning the war on crime, the residents in Hanover Park beg to differ. Perhaps the Minister and I will, however agree on this point, although based on his speech, probably not; but that is not surprising that the crime situation in the Western Cape has now reached the crisis point. What else would he have convened an emergency meeting with the Justice Cluster earlier this week? Why would you convene an emergency meeting if the Western Cape crime rate is not a crisis? The real question is why did the Minister waited for a bloodbath in order to convene this emergency meeting. And why did the Minister continue to ignore the Western Cape government’s repeated reasonable appeals for increased police officers and more support from the SAPS. Minister, all you need to do is answer the email, otherwise we will see you in court. [Interjections.]



In his state of the nation address, the President committed to halving violent crime within 10 years yet the SAPS annual performance plan, APP, presented to the committee last week, is



in no way calibrated to deliver on the President’s commitment. For example, the SAPS annual performance plan refers to a reduction in serious crimes by 2% per year over the medium term. This will only reduce the number of nearly 1,7 million reported cases of serious crimes by approximately 100 000 cases.



When I challenged the SAPS on this point I was told that addendums with new targets would be added to the annual performance plan and then presented to the Minister before the end of the month. This is unacceptable, the Minister is not Parliament. We are here tonight to debate the budget and the plans that give effect to this budget and yet the committee has not been provided with the complete plans. We don’t have the plans and anybody who thinks he can support this is doing so blindly.



The DA will not allow this committee to be turned into a rubber stamp for the Minister. The lives of the people of South Africa are too important for the people’s Parliament to simply be bypassed. We will fight to ensure that the committee finds its teeth, and when we bite; we bite hard.



While a lack of resources plagues the SAPS within their own budget, we find the distorted and wasteful resourcing priorities of the ANC government within the bloated VIP protection budget. We see them here everyday. By way of example, in 2018-19, the SAPS budget catered for a ratio of 81 VIP officers to 1 VIP. [Interjections.] Allow me to repeat this: 81 VIP Officers to just 1 VIP, while the people in Hanover Park suffer from the policing ratio of 1 to over 600! Tomorrow, in order to address the resourcing crisis in the SAPS, the Minister alluded to the funding crisis for Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid. My colleagues in the Appropriations Committee proposed that the bloated VIP protection budget be slashed from

R3,1 billion to R1,1 billion, so that funding can be allocated to Ipid to tackle corruption and ensure rural safety. [Interjections.]



Minister, we know where the high crime weight stations are across the country -and we know what needs to be done. It is time to bring Pretoria to the people! It is time to decentralise the SAPS by provincialising policing so that we can take power to the people and ensure that there is accountability. The time



for planning is over ... [Time expired.] The time for action is now! [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Mr W T I MAFANYA: Where do I press this thing ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Order, hon members, can you allow the member to debate.



Mr W T I MAFANYA: Chair, hon members, members of the EFF who are decolonised, Mr Minister, it is easier said than done. South Africa currently has a rate of 36 people murdered per 100 000, and in provinces like the Eastern Cape it is even higher.

Minister, we have such high levels of murder in the country that we have a murder rate of a country that is at war.



The levels of crime are so high that 7 minutes is simply not enough time for us to speak. I will therefore use the 7 minutes sparingly, and address three key issues that the SA Police Service needs to prioritise, which is gangsterism, gender-based violence and the so-called political killings. Currently these



three problems are tearing our communities and society apart. Cape Town is on the way to become the most dangerous city in the world, with more murders per capita than cities in the middle of the narcotics war of South and Central America.



Just this weekend 11 people were murdered in Philippi, and in Hanover Park 45 people have been killed this year in gang violence. But gangsterism is not just limited to Cape Town, you find it across the country even in rural areas, and it only continues to spread. In this cycle of violence that is a legacy of colonialism and apartheid, it is black and coloured people, particularly youth who are dying. And government does not have a solution. All interventions till this point have failed.



While we are aware and acknowledge that the underlying causes of gang violence and crime in general are underpinned by socioeconomic inequality and a wealth divide, there are a number of policies and programmes your government can put into place to address the wartime levels of murder in the country. A good starting point is police visibility and allocation of resources.



Nyanga is currently the most dangerous area in South Africa. In 2017-18 308 people were killed in the community. Yet it only has one police station, which is understaffed and does not have the necessary equipment. At the same time police stations in white suburbs across the country are well staffed and are always visible in their communities. The allocation of police resources in this country continues to be based on apartheid spatial planning.



In order to address the misallocation of resources and the continued lack of visibility by the police, specifically in our townships, the EFF has a number of practical easily implementable solutions. Police resources must be allocated according to number of people in a catchment areas and the levels of crime in that area, not on the basis of apartheid spatial planning. Satellite police stations must be established in every ward that currently does not have police stations. All police vehicles must be repaired and an additional

7 000 purchased by the end of 2022. All police reservists and security guards must be absorbed into active units of the SAPS to increase the police’s human capacity. And Community Policing



Forums must be re-capacitated and remunerated. These are just some of the simple but effective solutions your department can employ to fight gangsterism.



We also need to question where these firearms for these killing come from. Currently, the SAPS has lost thousands firearms that are unaccounted for and the security industry has over half a million firearms, some of which are not firearm registry. There must be a strict and constant audit of these firearms. Minister, your department must be able to locate and account for every bullet and gun in the hands of private security. Minister the issue of femicide and gender-based violence has been ignored by your department for too long. Every day women across South Africa get raped and murdered by men in their lives. Rape has become so entrenched in South Africa that in certain communities men prove their manhood through the rape of women.



The SA Police Service can and must play a crucial in ensuring that we bring an end to the war South African men have declared on women, but currently that is not happening. Police officers



retraumatise victims or turn them away when they come to report rape.



Thousands of cases go unsolved, and dockets go missing. Stations do not have DNA kits to collect evidence, and we do not have a DNA bank. This is why women in this country are suffering in silence and do not trust the SAPS, because the SAPS does not have the will or capacity to assist them. This must change and your department must take action.



Why has your department not begun developing something as simple as a DNA bank where the DNA of all citizens in the country can be kept? This must happen, and we can start with current prisoners. But your department must also take action against so- called political killings, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal. In that province a co-ordinated network of assassins has developed and has become a dark underground industry which is responsible for countless murders. Your department does not have the luxury of waiting for people die. Crime intelligence and all necessary units of the SAPS must do everything in their power to bring an end to this illegal and destructive industry. The so-called



political killings must not be treated as something that requires a political solution, it can only be resolved through policing.



These criminal networks must be infiltrated and completely dismantled. This means that current cases must all be solved, and the entire network from the co-ordinator and the assassin to the buyer must all be arrested. If you do not deal with this problem this government has no right to claim that it has respect for human rights, because the most fundamental right of all is the right to life. The failure of your department to develop an integrated approach to the #FeesMustFall student protests, the Marikana killings, and the Philippi massacre are the clearest signs of your department’s failure to combat crime. We therefore reject this budget. [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Chairperson, at the outset, allow me to thank the Minister for his proactive stance in addressing communities right here in Cape Town who have been on their knees pleading for support against gangsterism, drugs and violence. The communities in Cape Town are not alone in trying to fight the



scourge of violence, drug abuse, crime, gangsterism and syndicates.



Across the country, lawlessness on our streets has become worrisome. Statistics show that we cannot leave this fight just at the doorstep of the Minister. All of us will have to play our part in addressing the root causes of why our people are driven into the life of crime. No society can achieve its full potential while its people live in fear. Development is only possible when individual rights and liberties are secured across the board.



South Africans must feel safe and must be kept safe. With less talk, more listening to the plight many face and lending an ear to their solutions, we’ll be able to have a more responsive, caring, professional and disciplined police.



Our police must be professional and trustworthy. They must be equipped to deal with the ever-changing crime landscape. They cannot turn a blind-eye to gender-based violence. I would like to indulge you Minister on this one, to watch channel 157 on



DStv, the programme Ufelani. It is flighted on Fridays at 21:30. You’ll to see the many cases whereby police have not been helpful in providing closure to the families of victims who have been sexually assaulted, abused and murdered. Some of those murders are perpetrated by the police. It is not enough to talk about a strong stance on tackling crime.



We cannot fool our people or criminals with statistics, targets and tough talk. We cannot fool those who lose up to 10 members of their community in one weekend or those who lose their parents and grandparents who are brutally killed on farms in rural communities.



We cannot fool those who are the victims of stock theft, and those who are victims of abuse and hijacking. And we cannot fool those who mourn daily their loved ones who have been murdered.

We must be honest in calling the state of crime in our country a crisis.



Hon Chairperson, on Ipid, I was rather disturbed in the portfolio committee briefing when hearing about the instability



of this very important entity. It is pointless to talk about holding the police accountable when the very entity tasked to do so lacks leadership. It cannot be that Ipid lacks the basics to function. How can we expect miracles when basics are not in place for Ipid officials to do their job?



The IFP urges Minister Cele to appoint a permanent head for Ipid. When too many posts remain occupied in an acting capacity as if we are in Generations, no one is really steering the ship. Leadership stability is vital to the success of the police watchdog. Our standards must be set higher. We must expect more and must do so within the budgetary constraints. Let’s raise the bar and work together to do so.



The IFP is willing and commits itself to ensuring that our country is safe and that we work together in a constructive manner to fix what is broken at SAPS and Ipid. I therefore, support this budget. Thank you.





Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ...





Hon Minister, you are the political head of the SA Police Services. One of the big problems for the SA Police Services is the fact that the political governors are not delivering services to communities. That means there is a burden put on the shoulders of our police members to ensure that there is peace and stability because of the lack of services by the political government of the ANC.



I appeal to you that you stand up in Cabinet and ensure that where the ANC governs, especially at local government level, they deliver proper services so that we do not overstress our members from the SA Police Services. I saw it in North West last month. The intervention unit worked 24 hours and had to be there all the time because the Mayor of J B Marks does not want to communicate with the community. That is unacceptable!



I also want to say to the hon Minister. When he talked about an amnesty for firearms, the FF Plus will only support it if in that amnesty period provision is made that owners of expired firearm licences will be able to reapply and renew their



licences. I say this because, you know, the Police Services does not have the capacity to safe protection and handling of firearms if they had to be handed in to the Police Services.



Let me also say, I’ve asked the hon Minister and he gave me the statistics from 2015. The statistics say more people in South Africa are killed by knives and other sharp objects than by firearms. That is the figure from the hon Minister. Therefore, I want to say, South Africa became a violent country and people need firearms to protect themselves. Sir, you are surrounded by VIP bodyguards and I saw that all of them are carrying firearms. Why? Why can’t they protect you then without the firearm? But we expect from the communities and the people to not have firearms.





As ek oor plaasmoorde praat, is daar lig aan die einde van die tonnel. Deur verskeie gesprekke wat ek met die Nasionale Polisiekommesaris en die Minister gehad het, is daar nou gesprekke wat reeds plaasgevind het en verder gaan plaasvind tussen die Transvaalse Landbou-unie van Suid-Afrika en AgriSA. My terugvoering is dat daar goeie samewerking tussen die polisie



en hierdie landbou-organisasies begin ontwikkel, wat hulle landelike beveiliging betref. Daardeur sal daar ook ’n veiligheidstrategie wees wat die gemeenskappe en die boere sal beskerm.



Ms R V N KOMANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am part of this meeting but I cannot hear because the translators are not user-friendly.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Okay, I’ll attend to it.



Ms R V N KOMANE: I suggest that maybe we wait until it is sorted because the EFF has submitted a letter on the second to the Secretary to Parliament that this matter should be addressed.

However, it is not yet addressed. Can we be made part of this gathering so that we can as well hear what is being said by the speaker because we want to participate? Thank you very much.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): We’ll attend to that.






Ms M S KHAWULA: Bengicabanga ukuthi mhlonishwa akakhulume isiZulu ngoba ngeke ukuthi akasazi ngoba uzalelwe eNingizimu Afrika noma isitswana ke.





The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, I did not notice you. Will you take your seat please!



Ms M S KHAWULA: Is it Setswana, or...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): No, I did not recognise you. So, just sit down. Hon Van Damme, I’m ... [Interjections.]



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Chairperson, it’s ... okay.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): ... I’m trying to deal with the matter.



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Chairperson, on a point of order: It’s the second day in a row now where the EFF attacked a member of this House for speaking a different language. There are 11 languages



in this country and any member of this House is allowed to speak in their language of choice. MamKhawula speaks ... and nobody stops her. We are a country, everyone ... [Interjections.]



Ms M S KHAWULA: Speaker ...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon Van Damme, sit down please because I’m attending to the member in relation to the concern raised by her.



Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Van Damme must know ...





Wena ungumafrika umnyama, angiyazi lento oyenzayo.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, sit down please! Hon members, can you sit down please!





Ms M S KHAWULA: Ihlazo kwalona nje lelo lokuthi awukhulumi ulimi lwakho.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, sit down! Can you sit down please! Let’s respect the Rules of this House.



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Chair, can you actually please rule on this? It’s unacceptable. You must rule. It is not acceptable that a member of this House can be told that he cannot speak one of the

11 ... These people assaulted a Minister and all of a sudden now, they are here.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, please take your seat!



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Please rule on this matter. It is unacceptable.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Take your seat. The matter was raised yesterday and the hon Chairperson ruled it properly that we need to respect the Rules of this House. Today, I am busy dealing with the matter of the interpretation. The matter was ruled on yesterday and I am appealing to all the members to respect the august House, all of us.



Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Speaker, may I address you on this issue. [Interjections.]



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon members, they will indicate. They are attending to the matter.



Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, can I address you on this issue please!



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, I am the only one who can make a ruling in terms of Rules because a member has raised a matter that interpretations are not functional. So, I don’t know what is it that you want to engage on this matter. Yours will be to debate. I’ll give you time to finish your speech. Take your seat now. Hon member, in the meantime let’s just wait for five minutes. We want to sort out this matter.



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Chairperson, can you please update the House as to what is going on. Why there’s a ... Can you just give us an update because we have been waiting for a while. So, can you



just let us know what is going on? The ANC member is saying they have to rush somewhere. We are here and are willing to wait. Can you update us?



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon Van Damme, as soon as I’m updated I’ll update the House. Hon member, I think we need to proceed. Let us try channel 3 while the hon member proceeds. If we find difficulties, I’ll explain to you. Hon member, can you proceed so that ... [Interjections.]



Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, on a point of order before you proceed, if I may address the House: I request you and all the Presiding Officers, for the duration of these EPCs, that as a matter of urgency, you deal with this issue of translation and interpretation because all the EPCs have been interrupted, disturbed and have had to be suspended whilst this is being dealt with. If it is an issue that you need to interact with, with parliamentary staff and all the other nitty-gritties, then as a matter of urgency, sort it out. It smacks of incompetence and high level of unprofessionalism for Parliament to come to a grinding halt at every EPC for something that has been raised



day in and day out, and it’s falling on deaf ears. This interruption cannot continue! Thank you, Chair.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, I think you are right. Your message is noted. We’ll attend to it. Thank you. Can you proceed! Hon member, take the podium, please!





Dr P J GROENEWALD: Dit was ’n aangename ruskansie. Ek wil vir die kommesaris en die Minister sê om asseblief daardie gesprekke op te volg, sodat ons ’n beter en veiliger landelike omgewing kan skep en ook kan help om boere te beskerm en plaasmoorde te voorkom.



Die VF Plus is ten gunste ...



Ms R V N KOMANE: Chairperson ...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, what is your point of order?





Moh R V N KOMANE: Modulasetilo, nna, ga ke utlwe sepe. [Tsenoganong.] Nyaya, ga ke utlwe sepe gotlhelele. Ke na le tshwanelo ya gore ke utlwe, fela ga ke utlwe sepe. Ga ke bone go siame gore re tle fano go tla go amogela maemo a a sa kgotsofatseng.





We don’t need to compromise.





Nna ga ke utlwe. A mme ga ke karolo ya Palamente eno? Ke kopa go diriwa karolo ya Palamente eno. Kgang eno e tlhagisitswe makgetlo a mantsi.





I have referred to a letter.





Sebui sengwe se fetsa go bua gore ntlha eno e builwe malatsi a mabedi a a fetileng.



I am saying that the EFF Chief Whip wrote to the Secretary to Parliament on 2 July, raising the same matter and this matter is not being attended to.





Ka jalo, a go tla tswelelwa pele fa rona re se karolo ya Palamente eno kgotsa jang? A re emeng gore kgang eno e rarabololwe gore re kgone go utlwa. Le nna ke fano ka gonne go na le batho ba ke ba emetseng. Ke kopa go diriwa karolo ya ngangisano eno gore ke kgone go bua le go buella batho ba ke ba emetseng fano. Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.





The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, I thought I responded even to the member from the IFP who said this needs to be attended to. But for the sake of progress, I’ll request that we proceed and the matter is being attended to.





Moh R V N KOMANE: Modulasetilo, ke kopa go gakololiwa fa o re...



...for the sake of progress.





Ga ke go utlwe sentle. Ga ke go utlwe fa o bua ka go tswelela pele. A go tswelela pele go raya gore ...





...for the sake of you continuing...





...ba bangwe ba tlogelwe kwa morago?



Ke a go utlwa gore o re kgang eno le e utlwile, fela a re nneng mo maemong a a lekanang.



Ga ke utlwe Rre Groenewald, ke batla go mo utlwa gore ke kgone go tsibogela dkgang tse a buang ka tsona.



Modulasetilo, ke nagana gore o mphile tetla ya go bua le wena ka ntlha eno mme ga ke a lebelela gore motho yo mongwe a nkarabe.





MOTLATŠA MODULASETULO (Mdi V S Siwela): A re lekeng channel 6 re kwe gore Sesotho a re se kwe naa ... channel 6.





Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): What’s your point of order?



Dr C P MULDER: It is wonderful to see that the EFF suddenly discovered all our 11 official languages. That’s wonderful and we hope ...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): That is not a point of order. I’m busy dealing with the matter that interpretation is not correct and you cannot run away from it. We are saying that the member must listen to channel 6 so that she is covered. So, I don’t know what kind of point of order are you raising because



I am dealing with the matter and we are trying to correct it. Hon member, take your seat, please!



Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson ...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Take your seat, hon member!



Dr C P MULDER: You will know ...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): I am making a ruling.



AN HON MEMBER: On a point of order.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): I am making a ruling



AN HON MEMBER: Point of order!



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): I am making a ruling. We are saying the member must press channel 6 so that she can hear



her language. That’s the ruling I am making so that the member can proceed.



Dr C P MULDER: How can you make a ruling if you don’t listen?



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Take your seat. Hon member, proceed.





Dr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, u moet net my tyd aanpas. Ek wou nou Engels gepraat het, maar nou sal ek nie; ek sal Afrikaans praat.



Minister, ons verwelkom spesialiseenhede, want dit is die oplossing veral as ons praat van geweldsmisdade. Dit is duidelik, as dit oor taal gaan, is die VF Plus ten gunste van al elf amptelike tale. Afrikaans is ’n inheemse taal en ons sal aanhou met Afrikaans, om Suid-Afrika te dekolonialiseer, maar ons het ’n aantal nuwe kolonialiste hier in die raadsaal, wat rooi is. Hulle is verskriklik lief vir Engels. Hulle kan net Engels praat.





It’s fine if you are in love with English. You are in love with a colonial language of the past. [Time expired.]





Ms M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, point of order...



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): What is your point of order, hon member?





Ms M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, okokuqala nje ngibonga ukuthi uyazi ukuthi njegoba ulana eNingizimu Afrika abantu balwa belwela lezi zilimi. Lalela ke uyabona uma ngikhuluma ngolimi lwami mhlawumbe isitswana nokuthi bona bayatolikeleka ukuthi wena uthini njengomuntu omnyama kodwa abafuni thina sizwe ukuthi bona bathini. Ngiyabonga






The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): That is a point of debate. You will debate when you debate. It is not a point of order. Sit down, hon member.



The next speaker on the list is the Deputy Speaker.





Nk M S KHAWULA: Kumnandi ngoba esithuka manje?



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms V S Siwela): Hon member, with due respect, take your seat, please!



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE (Mr C Mathale): Chairperson, I just wish to indicate that indeed it is not the guns that are following knives with regards to deaths in South Africa; the guns are a problem, hon Groenewald.



The issue of environment is not an issue that can be played upon, it is a matter that needs to be attended to because yesterday with the Minister, we experienced when visiting an area in Philippi where there are no proper streets and no



numbers on the shacks. The shacks must be numbered. There must be streets, there must be lights and I think that must be done. [Applause.]



We are saying there must be co-operative governance. We should not act independently and separately because we have one Republic. It is important that this must be done.



There are no mixed messages from Pretoria; there is only one message and that message has been articulated by the Minister.



It is with a sense of great honour and humility for me to be offered this opportunity to deliver my inputs to Budget Vote 20 and 23 under the auspices of a department that is charged with an enormous responsibility of keeping our nation safe.



We have a pressing obligation to continue pursuing every effort that will deliver a crime free South Africa, where the citizenry and everyone within our borders live without fear of being attacked or becoming victims of criminality. This mammoth task requires all hands on deck.



As the Ministry, we are ready for the task at hand and we further invite everyone to join in our determination to fight crime. Fighting crime is not the sole responsibility of our men and women in blue, but it is our shared responsibility, which should be appreciated and acted upon. Under all circumstances we should always remember that fighting crime is a national commitment that deserves no failure or compromise.



As a department, we are aggrieved that 25 years into our revered democracy, we continue to bury our sons and daughters, who have dedicated their lives to the safety and security of our country. Criminals deliberately target our members for the sake of perpetuating their criminal endeavours. This highest level of criminality cannot be tolerated and we will continue to confront it in every way possible.



Although the number of police officers killed in the line of duty has decreased dramatically since the early years of our democracy; one murder of a police officer is one too many and if left unattended may lead to anarchy, which we will not allow under any circumstances. The killing of police officers in the



line of duty must be condemned with the contempt it deserves and must attract the harshest conviction by our courts of law.



Chairperson, eliminating all forms of crime remains our primary mandate as the Police ...



Mr M M CHABANGU: On a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Deputy Minister, will you take your seat, please? Let me hear why this hon member is rising. Yes, hon member!



Mr M M CHABANGU: I would like to check whether it is parliamentary for a member should collect stockvel money while we are still debating? [Laughter.] He is busy circulating something.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, let’s maintain the dignity of the House. Let us not engage in activities that derail the proceedings. Hereafter, we have another debate on Trade and Industry that must take place.



Already there is a delay which will mean that that debate will only start at seven o’clock instead of starting at 6:30 or after seven, which means that the House will sit until 9:30 tonight.



SO, let us maintain the decorum of the House and focus on the business at hand. Continue hon Deputy Minister!



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE (Mr C Mathale): The Minister has stated issues around gender-based violence and other crimes against women and children and in this regard, we have said that we are strengthening our overall crime preventing interventions to allow ourselves to respond appropriately to all forms of criminality. To this effect, we are currently conducting an analysis of historical trends and best practices to develop appropriate policing responses to current threats.



At the crime detection conference held late last year, our national commissioner announced the development and capacitation of the Modus Operandi Strategic Analysis Centre aimed at analysing, investigating and countering identified crime threats



which includes, cash-in-transit, gangsterism, political killings, taxi violence and kidnapping and abduction.



To augment the SA Police capabilities, this centre will draw from the knowledge and expertise of qualified and retired criminologists to analyse the mode of operation of criminals and criminal syndicates.



We are also increasing community involvement to address crime trends. The Community Policing Strategy is a strategic imperative that directly supports the Constitution of the Republic and the White Paper on Safety and Security, 2016. It is intended to operationalise the concept of community policing, to stimulate active citizenry and citizen participation in the fight against crime.



The Community Policing Strategy contributes to the vision of the National Development Plan, NDP, and the ANC manifesto, as it pertains to building safer communities.



This strategy has been developed to revamp the centrality of the community in crime prevention and fighting. The strategy focuses on the following areas which will assist us in ensuring that we become effective in our policing activities as a country.



The national Community Policing Strategy will be operationalised through the development, implementation and monitoring of individual Provincial Community Policing Strategies.



The Community in Blue Programme, which is an integral part of the Community Policing Strategy, further emphasises the importance of involving the community in safety and policing- related matters through the assistance of community patrols.



Chairperson, in partnership with our sister departments that form part of the security cluster; we have geared ourselves to deal with cross-border security matters by strengthening the implementation of the Multidisciplinary Security Tactical Plan at ports of entry. We are also registering positive results on the establishment of a permanent K9 handler and dog capacity at all the major ports of entry.



As I mentioned before, we have recognised the importance of collaboration in combating crime both within South Africa and across the borders. We will therefore continue to pursue effective collaboration with international policing agencies and other stakeholders, in light hereof, we are deploying police liaison officers in all SADC countries in line with our Crime Intelligence Corporate Renewal Strategy.



In November 2019, we will be hosting the trilateral troika meeting as part of the signed trilateral agreement between South Africa, Tanzania and Mozambique with the aim to stop all forms of transnational crimes.



Hon Chairperson, I am proud to report that because of these collaboration, on 28th June 2019 together with South African Revenue Services, Sars, we have managed to confiscate counterfeit goods at the Port of Ngqura with an estimated value of R45 million.



We will continue to conduct cross-border operations to combat all forms of cross-border crimes. This includes investigating



the movement of stolen vehicles crossing South African borders and conducting of operations relating to repatriation of recovered vehicles.



Chairperson, the 4th Industrial Revolution is upon us. Criminals are applying advanced technologies in the commissioning of crime and we are determined not to be outsmarted by such low-lives.



We are therefore developing system capability to provide daily operation information on prioritised areas and optimise use of daily crime information at all levels. It is important that we introduce technology in our fight against crime and we are determined to win this battle.



It also enables the operational capabilities and assets of the SAPS to be more agile and easily adaptable to better combat crime as it manifests and is displaced by effective policing strategies and tactics.



The National Operations Centre, NOC, component, together with management intentions, is responsible to ensure that the



Operational Command Centre, OCC, concept is fully implemented during the 2019-20 financial year.



The rise in illegal mining and the increase in violence associated therewith also require serious attention. This is reaching uncomfortable heights and if not managed properly, it will be a serious problem for the country because we are losing billions as a result and we cannot allow it. We must respond as the SAPS promptly.



In conjunction with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, the SAPS is involved in the process of addressing the legislation that obstructs the effective policing of illegal mining. We will make sure that this legislation is brought in Parliament so that we become effective in our fight against this.



The damage to rail infrastructure and trains affect the most vulnerable members of society and has a negative outcome on our economy. The SAPS will therefore conduct high visibility



operations in the Metrorail corridors with the focus on serious and violent crimes ... [Time expired.]



Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, SAPS has the second largest Budget allocation of all government departments and the 2019-20 Budget allocation of R97,5 billion represents a 6,4% nominal increase over that of the previous financial year. Our police- to-population ratio, however, is decreasing annually. In September last year, National Police Commissioner said the SAPS was operating with a shortage of 62 000 officers, which is unacceptably too high if the police are to win the war against crime.



The ACDP is very concerned about increasing gang related violence, particularly in this province. Recently, Western Cape Community Safety MEC confirmed that 2019 is so far the most violent year on record, with more than 1,600 people losing their lives, with 900 of those murders, categorised as gang related.



In Philippi, 13 people were shot and killed the same weekend. This is totally unacceptable. Prevention of Organised Crime Act



No 121 of 1998, has sections that deal with gang related activities and penalties. It even has what they call “Interpretation of Member of Criminal Gang” but it does not prohibit gang membership. The ACDP would like to see the Amendment of this Act to ensure that gang membership is outlawed.



Gangs are causing havoc in communities and robbing innocent people, their right to live. The Anti-Gang Units that the hon Minister spoke about; I am not convinced that they will solve the problem of gangsterism. We need to consider making gang membership illegal. The ACDP is also very concerned about the rising number of farm murders. The rural safety plan that is in place should be revised as it is not deal with this matter effectively. Criminals that are involved in these attacks are very cruel. Some of them burn their victims with hot irons, rape women and children and even pour boiling water or oil on them.

This unbelievable cruelty must be stopped at all costs.



We believe a revised and more effective and dedicated rural safety plan will assist in this endeavour. These attacks are a



serious threat to our country’s economy, food security and the livelihood of farmers, farm workers and their families. We need more police to fight crimes successfully. We need better equipped crime intelligence operatives and an empowered Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID. That is why we welcome the announcement that there will be an academy to train our detectives so that those who are arrested are found guilty. Thank you.



Ms N P PEACOCK: Hon Chair, hon Minister of Police, hon Deputy Minister of Police, hon members, delegation of the South African Police Service and the IPID, all protocol observed. Today, I stand humbled before our nation; crime affects all of us, whether directly or indirectly. It escapes no one. It creeps into our minds and souls, destroying lives, hopes and dreams.

Women are being violated and murdered in the worst manner of patriarchal manifestations. This is not acceptable. We call for stricter bail conditions and harder sentences in combating violence against women and children, particularly in cases of domestic violence and sexual offences.



We must equip the police and the court system to support survivors of gender-based violence and sexual offence. Hon Chair, it is sad that so many of our youth are engaged in gang- violence, but the reality is that they often have no choice, no alternative and no hope. Loved-ones are caught in the crossfire and families are destroyed. We must remember that gangsters are people and they are loved. But, they are destroying our communities through their deeds. It is said: “hate the deed, not the person”.



Our communities must stand strong against the deep-rooted culture of gangsterism, especially here in the Western Cape. Less than 20 km from where we sit today, the Cape Flats are devastated by crime. It needs decisiveness and we welcome the efforts made by the police service and the Minister of Police, but we urge that efforts must be increased to restore peace and stability in these areas. We must never lose hope. We will work with law enforcement agencies and various organisations to fight the abuse of substance by young people. We must enact and enforce legislation of municipalities to regulate the location



of taverns and liquor outlets away from schools and religious establishments.



The challenges of State Information Technology Agency, SITA, are reaching a critical point. Effective service delivery is hampered by the capacity constraints of SITA to supply ICT infrastructure and products to the departments. The establishment of the agency was done with very good intentions, but the time has come to acknowledge its limitations. The challenges are not isolated to the police, but across all government departments, including defence. This is a critical point in our cluster, as it is arguably affecting our national security and must be addressed.



We desperately need a modernised police service to keep up with international and changing crime trends. We need to police smarter and not harder and embrace technology as a force multiplier. On a lighter note, technology is our friend and not our enemy and we should embrace it. The Fourth Industrial Revolution is here, and I fear that we might not be ready for it. The technological challenges have a devastating impact on



our criminal justice value chain. As we move into the last decade of Vision 2030, we must use all avenues to realise the goals set through the National Development Plan.



In an effort to take full advantage of technology, we welcome long term IT solutions for the police and wish them well in this effort. This is important, especially in the Crime Intelligence Division to gain the upper hand on crime syndicates.





Agbare Speaker, Die afgelope paar weke was daar goeie samewerking tussen politieke partye om ‘n strategie te ontwikkel om plaasmoorde beslissend aan te spreek. Die gedagte om aangeval te word binne ons huise, daar waar ons die veiligste voel, maak ons bang. Ons dink aan al die slagoffers van plaasmoorde en dat hulle hierdie vrees beleef het. Daarom Ondersteun ons die hersiennig van die landelike-beveiliging-strategie van die polisie.






Modulasetulo, batho ba rona ba tlhoka go ema mmogo. Go kitlana le go lwantshana le bothokotsebe mo Aforikaborwa. Kitlano ke maatla.





In conclusion, our police need our help to fight crime. Unlike them, we do not have to wear a bullet-proof vest to do this. We need only take their hands to rebuild the trust that has been lost. We support the 2019-20 Budget Votes 20 and 23. I thank you. [Applause.]



Ms J M MOFOKENG: Honourable Chairperson, members, Minister of Police and Deputy Minister, MECs, South African Police Service leadership, ladies and gentlemen, as we commemorate the birth month of an internationalist, father of the nation, leader, feminist, revolutionary and comrade, former President uTata Nelson Mandela, we remember his words wherein he said, I quote,



For every woman and girl violently attacked, we reduce our humanity. For every woman forced into unprotected sex because men demand this, we destroy dignity and pride.



Every woman who has to sell her life for sex, we condemn to a lifetime in prison. For every moment we remain silent, we conspire against our women.



For every woman infected by HIV, we destroy a generation. Hon Chairperson and members, as we debate on this Budget Vote on Police, Saps, and the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, while we may differ as political parties, we agree on one thing: Crime affects us all and is unacceptable.



Women walking free in the streets and children playing safely in open spaces are at the core of the National Development Plan, NDP, goal on safety and security. Crime in general does not have gender preference with the exception of sexual offences which often target females. Femicide is a specific form of gender based violence where women are murdered, usually by men, just because they are female.



Feminist author, Diana E H Russe, an early pioneer of the term, prefers a variant of this narrow definition of femicide: “The killing of females by males because they are females”. Rape,



targeting women and girls, is a serious problem in South Africa. The 2016-17 victims of crime statistical release reported that

250 out of every 100 000 women were victims of sexual offences compared to 120 out of every 100 000 men.



Using the 2016-17 South African Police Service statistics, in which 80% of the reported sexual offences were rape, together with Statistics SA estimate that 68,5% of the sexual offences victims were women, we obtain a crude estimate of the number of women raped per 100 000 as 138.



This figure is among the highest in the world. For this reason, some have labelled South Africa as the “rape capital of the world”. On 8 March 2018, the African Union,AU, released a new report on women’s rights in Africa, to asses the status of women in African countries. The report is presented in partnership with the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and UN Women as a contribution to the AU’s African Year of Human Rights with a particular focus on women.



The report reflects the painful conditions of women. The report says that one in three women, 33,3%, in Africa have report having experienced physical or sexual partner violence by a partner or by a non-partner.



The National Development Plan asserts that the fear of crime has consequences for women and girls and their ability to achieve their potential in every sphere of social and productive life.

Gender-based violence, in all its forms, denies women and girls the opportunity to achieve equality and freedom enshrined in the Constitution. As we say that, we acknowledge and remember that the President said that we need safe communities. As we do that, the ANC ...





... re are, re a leboga maphodisa a rona; bomme le bontate! [legofi.]



Hon Chairperson, in his maiden state of nation address, the former President, Nelson Mandela, said: “Freedom cannot be achieved unless women have been emancipated from all forms of



oppression”. As we grapple with the scourge of crime and unacceptably high rates of violence, especially towards women, children, persons living with disabilities and the LGBTIQA+ community, it must be understood that the scourge is rooted in patriarchy. Patriarchy is a challenge that needs to be combated with immediate effect.



Having identified the patriarchal fibre in our society, we need to eradicate gender discrimination and build a nonsexist and prosperous society. We promise to protect the rights of children and to place special emphasis to the realisation of women’s emancipation.



Understanding the trauma of experiencing sexual offence, the ANC-led government established specialised sexual offences

courts which would deal exclusively with sexual offence matters. Sexual offences matters and courts need special services for rape survivors and other people who have been in such situations to be healed.



In 2007, we enacted the Criminal Law, Sexual Offences and Related Matters, Amendment Act 32 of 2007 to protect communities against rape and other sexual related crimes. The Act provides protection to victims especially women, children and people living with disabilities.



The ANC-led government, through the National Prosecuting Authority, has Thuthuzela Care Centres, TCCs, which are a one- stop facility. But, we are saying, you have actually done well to up the game, but you can go to the Gauteng province to experience Ikhayalethemba; a one-stop shop that can be a model used in all other provinces to capacitate the Thuthuzela centres. As we claim them as police services, the Justice department claims them as well. So, there should be uniformity when it comes to these centres.



It cannot be business as usual, Deputy Minister. That centre has medico legal services, social workers and also Department of Social Development together with community safety. We welcome the report that the department is going to increase on the budget - which we noted that it has been too little.



We call on the government to support all women on their strides in making sure that they fight the scourge of crime in nongovernmental organisations, NGOs. William Wilberforce came to mind when he said, I quote: “You may choose to look the other way but you can never say that you did not know”.



We have seen the budget and have raised our concerns, particularly on the capacitation of Saps. Investment in human capital through training and development initiatives is crucial for Saps towards the provision of policing services to communities. It is critical to the enhancement of the operational and support environments which require the continued alignment of programme with the business requirements.



We appreciate that the Saps has prioritised training interventions for crime investigation, forensic science investigation and the investigation of crime against women, children and other vulnerable groups.



Because the safety of the lives of our children and our LGBT community ... We note, in closing, with what a Liberian woman



said: “A house where a woman is unsafe is not a home”. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): May I request hon members who are on the speaking list to take up the waiting benches, please? It will reduce time.



Mr M G HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, hon Minister, South Africa was a violent country it never became one. The national gang unit must… [Interjections]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Hendricks will you just hold on. The table staff must ensure that they reset the clock.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I’m just waiting for the timer to be reset hon member. You may continue.



Mr M G HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, hon Minister, South Africa was a violent country; it never became one [united]. The national gang unit must wait. We need street gang units. Make our day and put the first ones in place tonight. There are so many detectives and police officers we want to thank for protecting our freedom against all odds. You did acknowledge some of them and I’m sure if through the hon Chair, I ask them sitting in the gallery to rise up their hands that they are ready to be part of the street gang unit, all those hands will go up. [Laughter]



We don’t want to see the Minister in court we want to see criminals in jail. We agree with the bishop that gang membership must be unlawful when a socio economic plan kicks in. we say what is needed is a socio economic response and we call on you to ask the President to set up a police economic social development cluster. In the short term we must consider to take away some of the freedoms parts of the Cape Flats enjoy. I would



never have said this in the harsh days of apartheid but it must be an option hon Minister to deal with the hot spots where the force and might of the police state.



I want to thank your men and women for a free and fair election otherwise we would not have been here. This must be duty your Leadership, and I can also see the first steps for a real, professional and committed police force with your passion which we have not seen in any other Ministry, with all due respect to the other Ministers sitting here.



A quick walk to reach a police station is revolutionary. Al Jama’Ah supports this initiative. This must happen sooner than later. Like I said the gang unit must have permanent street units in the 20 most dangerous streets in Hanover Park, Philippi, Manenberg, Delft and Bonteheuwel which you have been brave enough to visit. So, we ask you to approach treasury for special funds, to put in place also a drawn force with artificial intelligence so that you really embrace the Fourth Industrial Revolution.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member your time has now expired.



Mr M G HENDRICKS: Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, Minister, Deputy Ministers, our colleagues and our men and women in blue who sacrifice and put their lives at risk so that we could live in a safe environment. I want to acknowledge you for the role that you play, Minister and your team for the role that they’re playing in trying to create a safe environment in South Africa despite the serious challenges that we face.



Now the question that we need to ask and I think as the NFP we have said this repeatedly before the Minster, that you are not going to be able to deal with the problem of crime South Africa on your own as a department because you don’t create the problem but everybody else creates the problem and you’ve got deal with them.



Let me also remind some of our colleagues here, and I don’t want to go back to the days of apartheid, but this is where it al started, the special planning from those days, we must not run away from that. We are sitting with a situation where the country has sizes as big as this for the population as big as this, trying to ensure that we deliver to every corner of South



Africa with the high unemployment rate, the socio economic conditions. If we take all those factors into consideration yes, the Department of South African Police Service has a very difficult task.



However, I think many of you while some of them maybe corrupt and may not be committed and passionate about it but, many of you are very dedicated and committed. Unfortunately I don’t see you getting the reward and the benefits because in South Africa when a police officer kills a criminal, all the political parties are shouting and screaming “police officer killed a criminal” but when criminal kills a police officer, nobody says anything.



What is disappointing is that they forget when a police officer dies; an entire community dies with him or her. That’s what they dare failing to understand. Despite that I think you people are doing a fantastic job.



Minister there are some serious challenges, I know you have been dealing with the issue of promotions, the Bayview police station



is one good example which I’ve repeatedly spoken to you about, besides the Bayview there are other challenges, there’s in fighting. And, you know what I cannot understand, where is the discipline that existed in the South Africa Police Service before? Police officers were much disciplined, they respected each other, they respected the ranks and that seems to be disappearing. Everybody wants to lead, everybody wants to be in charge and that is one of the problems that you seem to be experiencing.



The other problem is that a lot arrests are being done but either through poor investigations or because of the fact of what is happening in the courts. They just want to get the matters of the roll. Police officers want to put them in, the courts want to get them out. And, that is the problem you are sitting with. People are getting arrested and one hour later they are getting bail and that is why we said before, there must be some coordination between the two departments. You must put some measures in place.



I think my time is running out Minister, Chairperson thank you very much for the report tabled here today.



The House Chairperson: Mr CT Frolick: Yes hon member your time has now expired.



Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, fellow South Africans, in terms of section 12(1) of the Constitution, everyone has the right to freedom and security of the person, which includes the right to be free from all forms of violence, from either public or private sources.



The people of South Africa pay an ever increasing amount of money annually, currently R97, 59 billion, to ensure our safety. It is therefore fair to expect that this huge annual investment will yield the desired results.



Sadly, this is unfortunately not the case. Violent crimes are on the rise every single day. Certain areas in our country are run by drug lords and gangsters. Innocent people are dying in the crossfire. A quote from the Sunday Times on 30 June 2019 reads



as follows: "Cape Town will most likely become the crime capital of the world if the police fail to turn the crime tide around”.



Crime levels in South Africa are unacceptable and the obvious question is can it still be turned around? The answer fortunately is a resounding yes. The DA has developed a turnaround strategy to make South Africa a place of safety by: restructuring the South African Police Service. The whole structure must be overhauled, changing the department from this clumsy, out of touch organisation, to a streamlined responsive organisation. Basic policing must be managed nearer to the ground. Crime prevention and other related services must be devolved to a provincial level; the top heavy structure at SAPS must be trimmed, and these savings can then be re-allocated for basic policing;





Implimentering van ’n behoorlike landelike beveiligingsplan... Plaas en ander moorde in landelike gebiede moet gestop word. Dit het die afgelope dekade met 60% gestyg. Die SAPD se plan is nog steeds nie gereed of geimplimenteer nie. Die DA het ’n plan wat




dadelik geimplimenteer kan word. Dié plan sal stabiliteit verseker wat ons mense op plase en landelike gebiede sal toelaat om rustig met hul lewens voort te gaan en om op normale daaglikse aktiwiteite te fokus.





By professionalising the police through training and re-training and by providing modern equipment to give police the means to tackle criminals head-on.



The Police will never win the fight against crime with outdated equipment; by changing the strategy and style of policing, it is not clear what the department's policing style is at the moment. After almost two decades the police have not managed to successfully roll out the former strategy, namely sector policing. In many areas where it was rolled out, it collapsed due to staff and other shortages. The only lasting solution is to adopt a participative policing style where the police and the community form strong partnerships to police different areas.

Reservists and other volunteers must play a more prominent role.



The many vacancies in the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, and the Civilian Secretariat for Police must be filled as a matter of urgency to enable these organisations to fulfil their watchdog role.



The DA salutes all our hard working and dedicated policemen and women, but the time has come to take the bull by the horns and transform the police into an effective crime fighting machine. Time is necessary, let's do it now. I thank you.



Mr E R K MAPHATSOE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and the Deputy Minister of Police, Deputy Ministers present here, the chairperson of the committee, the members of the executive council, MECs, present here, hon members, the members of the SA Police Service led by the national commissioner, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, the director of Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority, Psira, and our guests present here, I rise to support the Budget Vote of the Department of Police and Ipid. In this period in our history the people of South Africa spoke through the recent elections. They want peace and security. That is why they have voted for the



party they trust. They voted for the ANC because they want peace.



This Budget Vote debate takes place during the birth month of the former President of the glorious movement and the people’s army of uMkhonto weSizwe, South African first democratically elected President, Seaparankwe, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. I wish to remind the South Africans the words he uttered in Cape Town in 1998 – on the occasion of the Freedom Day celebration – when he said and I quote:



Our freedom is also incomplete, dear compatriots, as long as we are denied our security by criminals who prey on our communities, who rob our businesses and undermine our economy, who ply their destructive trade in drugs in our schools, and who do violence against our women and children.



Hon Chair, it is no secret that the causes of crime are rooted in the triple challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality. The brutal apartheid special design which relegated



blacks in general, far from the economic activity, resulting in injustice should never be underestimated. The legacy of such systems still exists. The migrant labour systems fundamentally destroyed families and led to despair. The system gave rise to the violent culture which we see today. Today we have townships and rural areas which are ravaged by crime, violence and despair.



Crime affects everyone, especially the poorest of the poor. The places in which the masses of our people live are extremely violent. High levels of crime pose a serious threat to the freedom and dignity of South Africans. The President in his Sona indicated that violent crimes will be decreased by half within the next 10 years. This can only be achieved through a collaborative effort by all government departments, private sector, faith-based organisations, civil society and community at large. The portfolio committee is acutely aware of the many challenges faced by or police men and women in the fight against crime. The recent killing of 13 people in Philippi is best testimony to some of the challenges faced by the police and I dare say our people in poor communities.



In the same breath, we condemn in the strongest possible manner the brutal killing of people.The attack on a legitimate place law and enforcement officer is an attack on the state. These are treacherous acts and we will never accept these kinds of behaviour. Policing informal communities is difficult. There are enormous obstacles which impedes professional policing. Let us consider what some of these challenges are. The roads leading into these areas are difficult and not tarred. There is poor lighting which makes it difficult for Saps to effect their constitutional duties. The recent shooting of six Anti-gang Unit police officers in Samora Machel informal settlement in Nyanga bears all the hallmarks of our police officers having to struggle with the terrain they are policing. Where there is no lighting, anyone can be easily attacked.



Secondly, the population density of some of these communities that has to be policed is stretching the resource of the police. Thirdly, during investigations by detectives, there are often no numbers on the shacks. This sometimes makes arresting suspects difficult. It is very clear that there needs to be a new approach to policing our communities. The plan must include



crime prevention through environmental design elements that take account of geographic features of some of our communities. There is no one-size-fits-all. All government departments including local government district municipalities have to come onboard to assist the police. These includes the provision of the voter tarred roads and lighting.



We have noted that the metro police are nowhere to be found in townships areas. We call the Saps and civilian secretariat to finalise the single policing policy with respect to getting co- operation between the Saps and the metro police. One of the areas where the portfolio committee is united is the question of technology. If we will fight crime, we must be smart. In this respect we have to support the Saps in upgrading technology.

That is why we support the move towards placing cameras in community service centres and body-worn cameras for the police.



We are certain that the targets set by the President will be met. We have informed the Saps to review their targets and align with those of the President in the reduction of violent crimes. We can do more to fight crime. This Parliament must play its



role in helping our institutions and deliver on their mandates. Violence in schools forms part of the environmental design which is linked to the high crime rates which we face as country. It has been reported that a civilian secretariat for police has since reviewed the school safety protocol which requires a holistic approach towards addressing school violence.



Hon Chair, in November 2018, President Cyril Ramaphosa launched the Anti-gang Unit to fight gang-related crimes in gangsterism nationally. I note the portfolio committee’s support of the unit. Our people have suffered at the hands of gangsters. We all have to do our part in making sure that gangs never govern our communities again. Of the 973 gang-related murders nationally, it was reported that 808 were in the Western Cape, where the DA is ruling, which is why we are making it a priority. In his commitment to eradicate gangsterism, Minister Cele announced that the unit will be rolled out nationally. We applaud this move. Keep quiet. We are making sure that the firearms are taken out of the arsenal and out of the hands of gangsters by making sure that the central firearm registry is turned around.



We are confident that the oversight agencies are doing their work with respect to police corruption. We support the work of the Ipid with the work of fighting systemic corruption within the Saps. We have made sure that investigation programme of the Ipid is strengthened with the core of the Ipid budget that have been allocated. In conclusion, Chair, the ANC has committed to see through these challenges of crime. We have ... [Inaudible.] to make sure that our police are supported by the metro. The ANC support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Time expired.]



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Terblanche, you were responsible of building police stations and you did not build them. So, I have no business to come here when you were working in the police.

Instead, you reined a very corrupt unit in the Saps. You were supposed to build the Nanda police station by R15 million ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, would you just take your seat so that I can take this point of order, please. Now, the DA must decide who will take this point of order.



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, you would have heard that the Minister accused the hon member of running a corrupt unit. That is a direct casting of aspersions on the Minister. The Minister must withdraw.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, would you withdraw that remark, please.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: I withdraw, but I was the national commissioner then and I was there. I looked them ... [Inaudible.] Secondly, ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... hon Minister, just withdraw the remark, don’t explain why you ... [Inaudible.]



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Withdrawn. I was the national commissioner, but it is withdrawn. So, I know the story. Secondly, it is such hypocrisy to come here and pay your condolences when you have not seen the families that have lost their loved ones. That is why I don’t call condolences here because I visited all families, where I discovered that in one



family lost three brothers in one house. So, I have no business for condolences here because I have seen them. ... I don’t run media.



Having said so, we want to make this to be understood that from now in the nearest future, all cars of the police will be washed in the townships. This is to increase the township economy and they will be fixed by the young people in the township. That is the contribution of the SA police. However, having said so, it is on that basis that what happened at Philippi, that the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Police have written to the President and requested the permission of an expanded deployment in those places here in the Western Cape. We will be deploying in the Western Cape in your Khayelitsha, Uitsig and everywhere else from 2h00 a m from the previous night. This morning we have started to deploy extra police. Tomorrow we are sealing off the Western Cape in the cape flats with the SA National Defence Force and with the special forces of the SA police.



We will make sure that the people of this place are finally safe, working together with everybody, the police and with other JCPS contingences to make sure that these places are safe. We will do that at Khayelitsha, Philippi, East Harare, Gugulethu, Mfuleni, Kraaifontein, Mitchells Plain, Bishop Levis, Delft, Elsies River, Nyanga, etc, where people have been dying. We will seal that one. We will go door to door and collect every illegal firearm, we will collect all criminals that we want and we will collect all outstanding criminals that have been on bail. That is happening from 02:00 this morning, tomorrow at 02:00 in the morning I will be addressing the forces to put there.



If you go there, that is what will happen. However, the Western Cape local governments help us. Put some lights on, so that we know how to walk around ... yes, the communities, not DA, the communities ... because I visit those places. When these people die, not a single one of you go and see them. Having said so ... [Interjections.]



Ms P T VAN DAMME: Will the Minister, please, take a question?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are you prepared to take a question, hon Minister?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: I don’t take silly questions. Can I finish what i ... [Inaudible.] especially those silly questions? We have serious stuff here. We have serious stuff to deal with here, the lives of the people where young people and even women are dying. We went there and we saw a three-year old that when his mother died was in the room. You must go visit and see those people and stop coming here ... I invite you to come with me but I want you to go with me at night and without bodyguards. The two of us will go there. I invite you to go there. At the soonest we will definitely go there.



For now, we have responded to the people of the Western Cape and their lives are taken care of by this government. Don’t come here to pay condolences in the platforms and on television. We pay condolences in the houses of the dead. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order. The following debates will take place at 19h00; it is the combined debates on Trade and Industry and Economic Development here in the National Assembly, the debate on Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries Budget Vote in the Old Assembly and the debate on the National Treasury Budget Vote in room E249. That concludes our business and the mini-plenary will now rise.



Debate concluded.



The mini-plenary session rose at 18:49.








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