Hansard: NA: Mini-plenary

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 11 Jul 2019


No summary available.









Members of the mini-plenary session met in Committee Room E249 at 14:01.



The House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, ladies and gentlemen, may I take this opportunity make a short announcement to say there a problem with regard to the configuration of the interpretation gathered in this room. So, the information and technology, IT, team is still busy with it. They will get it right as soon as possible. There seems to be no isiNdebele interpretation or something. Something is just not right, but they will get it right very soon. The secretary will read the order.





Debate on Budget Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, also note that in front of you time does not show, but there will be an indication. I now invite the hon Minister of Public Service and Administration to the podium please. [Applause.]





Sihlalo, Chairperson of this session, I want to greet the hon Deputy Minister of the Department of Public Service Administration; Ms Chikunga, hon members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, hon Members of Parliament who are here, entities within the department, Government Employees Medical Scheme, Gems, Public Service Commission, PSC, Government Employees Housing Scheme and senior officials in the Department of Public Service and Administration.



It is indeed an honour to be in this House to present the budget for the Department of Public Service and Administration. I want to start by just spelling out the mandates. We derive our mandate from Chapter 10 section 195 and 197 of the Constitution of the Republic. However, just to remind you, in addition to that the two Acts of Parliament, the Public Service Act of 1994, there is also the Public



Administration Management Act 11 of 2014. All of these especially the Acts outline norms and standards and they also outline values and principles respectively that govern our work in the public service.



The Public Service Act for instance lists a number of tasks such as: Establishing norms and standards, dealing with organisational structures, setting up conditions of service and all the likes. Time is not on our side, but we have provided you with what this Act do and how it guides us.



The Public Administration Management Act on the other hand provides the Minister of Public Service and Administration with the authority to establish a uniform system of public administration across all three spheres of government. We think at this point in time for the purposes of the sixth administration, it is very important to emphasise this point going forward.



Having said this, I want to proceed to say the department has four components that are key, but I am counting those that are key; the Department of Public Service Administration, the Public Service Commission, the National School of Governance and the Centre for



Public Service Innovation. It might be put wrong here, but It is a centre.



House Chairperson, the President of the Republic when he delivered the state of the nation address, he identified seven priorities and we want to report to this House that we are committed in doing our work flowing from those seven priorities. They are all written there. Just to mention the first one which is very important, it is economic transformation and job creation. We want to fully agree with the President that is a priority for all of us in the country facing us in all corners of the Republic. Without it we cannot move forward both as the departments, but also as a country. That is very important that we be informed of these as we go on with our work.

The rest are there - the other six. However, out of these seven principles and priorities that the President counted those that are relevant to us are the following: Most relevant. I am not saying there is any one that is not relevant. I am saying the most relevant and peculiar to our department. It is the consolidation of the social wage through reliable and quality basic services. That one talks to us directly as the public service. It is important to mention it.



The second one is a capable and ethical developmental state. It talks to us and we have to craft the implementation thereof and make sure we make progress in this regard.



The third one is the better Africa via African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM. Of course skills and the health of public servants is very important. These are the key and very direct in terms of our interests and our mandates.



Then over and above what the President outlined in terms of the priorities there is the National Development Plan, NDP, very instructive we can say this or that on the NDP, but it remains very relevant and very instructive in terms of what we need to do in the sixth administration. For instance it clearly states that our country needs to follow a model of a developmental state. However, the NDP also recognises that not all capable states are developmental and so, it emphasis the importance of building a capable state, in terms of skills and capacity of your public servants going forward.



The President had this to say when he was delivering his state of the nation address and I quote:



This is the start of a wider process of arresting the decline in state capacity and restructuring our model of service delivery so it best serves our citizens. We will build on the work we have already begun to address problems of poor governance, inefficiency and financial sustainability. We are committed to building an ethical state in which there is no place for corruption, patronage, rent-seeking and plundering of public money. We want a corps of skilled and professional public servants of the highest moral standards - and dedicated to the public good.



This is our mission. Both as a department and as government in the sixth administration and we are inviting all of you Members of Parliament and the public to join us along this direction, so that our country forges forward and succeeds.



We want to recognise the work that has been done in the last 25 years and we give an outline of those key achievements that we regard as important. The first one is the integration of the former so-called self-governing states and Bantustans into a united public service. That is the work that has been accomplished in the last 25 years - very important.



The second task that has been achieved is a framework governing a public service in the Republic of South Africa which was not there before 1994.



The third achievement is the 1997 White Paper on Transforming Public Service Delivery commonly known as Batho Pele White Paper which focused on making sure that at the heart of service delivery, the public service should put people first and we need to move along those lines. [Applause.]



A number of regulations accompanying these have also been developed overtime. To date you know when you are doing a wrong thing; you know when you are doing a right thing within the public service. As a result of the regulations that have been developed, adopted and have been implemented overtime.



In 2005, for instance government registered the Government Employees Medical Scheme, Gems, which caters for quite a substantial number of people. Actually, it is one of the biggest schemes, but particularly in the public service. It is very important, with about 700 000 principal members. That is quite large catering for public servants. It means that they are deriving service from this, otherwise they would have not been members if it was a bad scheme. We applaud it



and we would work on it and improve it going forward. That is the work that has been done in the past, but also there is also a lot of work that is been done in addressing homeownership across the country for public servants and that is important.



There is also a Peer Review Mechanism in Africa that is making sure that all of us in the continent work together following particular systems, values and principles.



This is just a short summary of work that has been done in the last


25 years which we feel we need to recognise. But then as we stand here, we have our own priorities which I want to now outline. We have identified five public service and administrations own priorities, but which we are sure will cater for all the things that I have said about. The first one is dealing with resistant fault lines. When we are talking about fault lines we are referring in particular to those things that we decided long ago at various platforms that we would do, but we find that implementation has not gone up to the level that is ideal. However, nevertheless progress has been made and we call them that they are resisting, but we still have to move on; on them.



These in particular refer to Batho Pele principles. They are eight of them as you would recall. They are consultation, service standards, access, courtesy, openness, transparency, redress and value for money. These principles are still relevant and we still need to do lots and lots of work to make sure that we are at the desired level in terms of implementing them.



However, secondly as part of resistant fault lines is the perception that is held by the public that public service in the country still harbours elements of laziness on our side in the public service, both elected and unelected that is appointed public servants, laziness.



Thirdly, people hold the perception that we are arrogant in the public service, both in the offices and both those who are employed and who are elected. [Applause.] We go to them, they have been telling us all that during elections. Arrogance! Something we can just get rid off easily and by the way all of not just these and not those, all of us.



Fourthly, they say we lack innovation things that we could do easily today we still find it difficult to do because of lack of innovation. And that we are nonresponsive. There is a phrase that is



operational seeking to characterise public service being sent from pillar to post. People like saying this, I went to home affairs or to that office and I was sent from pillar to post. Now we are in the public service, we are in charge and we are going be looking for this pillar and that post together with public and remove it all together in the public service. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Excuse me, Minister. Excuse me, Minister.





priority that we have set ourselves in the next five years. We are in inviting you to work with us on this. Remove the pillar to post.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Excuse me, Minister. I am sorry. Minister, excuse me. You are left with seven minutes. I just want to make you aware.





the Public Administration Management Act. It is our intention to ensure that we implement it in full.



The third one is achieving higher levels of stability and we count here what is called the cost of living adjustment, Cola, which we have already done. That is ensuring that senior management services, SMS, are paid in accordance with Consumer Price Index, CPI, which has not been coming forth. However we have signed that and I am sure public servants SMS members are very happy with our achievement. [Applause.] Very responsive and making sure that people find public service attractive.



However, we want to quickly move on and say we want to assure unions that we intend consolidating relations and working together with them. They are our partners. They are not our opponents. We will make sure we work with them. Whether it is difficult or easy we must just work with a smile and move on even when we oppose one another somewhere and somehow.



We then want to move on to applaud for instance the longish cycle of negotiated settlements. Like the next cycle is only coming in 2021. That shows that if we work together with unions we can achieve and make sure that there is stability within public service. We want to achieve more, not just the cycles because they are some things that show us that they are unintended consequences.



The next one we want to show in that diagram there what is happening. We believe that public service is not necessarily apparently bloated, but we agree that the Wage Bill is overall rather high. Not just the Wage Bill, but the cost to run public administration in the country is a little bit high. I want us to look at that and approach this going forward.



We show in that diagram what is happening in the other parts of the world. That for instance in Ethiopia, public service is 8%. In other words the people who are serving the population, the whole society there or all the people there is 8% and is 1:25. You compare it with the rest of the countries and us. People should necessarily make an assumption that we have a bloated public service and out of line with the rest of the world. It is not the case. However, we agree we have to manage the costs.



With regard to fighting corruption, a great revolutionary from Argentina in the name of Ernesto Che Guevara, once said and I quote, “If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.” [Applause.]



Now to borrow from him, I believe that if you tremble at every act of corruption, dishonesty and lies, then you are a public servant. Then you are a comrade of mine in the public service. [Applause.]



There are a number of things that have been achieved, the hotline the anticorruption line, the disclosure frameworks and all of those. Some of the things that we see at the Zondo Commission are very undesirable, all of us believe that and the whole of South Africa is waiting for the outcome finally so that relevant actions can be taken. We are all of us looking forward to that.



We then give you some figures in terms of what is happening in the space of disciplinary cases, but then the last one in these five priorities is implementation of policy. There, we are emphasising that we are going to focus on this matter with jealousy making sure that we fight and implement whatever we want to implement.



We move on the Deputy Minister will deal with issues of Gems and the housing scheme, but just to say we are in year one of phasing out bonuses. We will. Number two - so if people ask us: What are we doing? What are we going to do? These are all the things we are going to do. It is not just focusing on the Wage Bill, but quite a range of issues to contain costs for public administration.



The next thing is the Ministerial Handbook. The President has released that handbook, but however there are agreements in the executive that there are certain areas of concerns. To this effect the President has appointed the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Public Service and Administration and the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure to work on three areas to deal with these and report back to Cabinet in two months. In particular is the upper limit of vehicle purchases, the tariffs of those who will be using their cars and upgrades and security in residential areas. Work we are going to be working on these. We want to say the current Ministerial Handbook is an old knew book. I will explain that what we mean.



Let me go on to say as I conclude, in our department, we are working very hard on our macro structure. Tomorrow in Pretoria we will be dealing with this making progress on this matter so that we become a model and ensure that we lead by example in terms of reconfiguration of the state and adapt it to prescripts of the new administration the sixth administration.



With regard to the youth, yes we are going on and forging ahead with opportunities for young people ensuring that the entry levels for



young people when they enter public service is made easier than it was happening in the past. [Applause.]



With regard to information communication and technology, ICT, we are in the era of the Fourth Industrial Revolution and we are working with all relevant partners in making sure that we move ahead on this sphere.



With regard to good relations we have said with the Public Service Commission, these are our friends. They are independent, but we are friends and neighbours financially so that they do their work and we do our work. We are promising an undertaking that we will work very well. We are quite impressed with their work in terms of making sure that we comply and where there have been deviations they emphasize and they call people to order. We will be working with them to ensure that they are stronger and they have teeth where they need to have teeth. We give you statistics there on some issues on the hotline, but then we then want to conclude overall by saying ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, hon Minister, thank you very much.





much to you, Chair and the members of the committee. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, I would like to apologise again for all the inconvenience. The information technology, IT, people are working on it. Hon members, we will break for a few seconds just to allow them to get this thing in order. It is very inconvenient for members.






Mr T H JAMES: Hon House Chair, hon members of the portfolio committee, hon Minister and the Deputy Minister, hon Commissioner and all the guests gathered here this afternoon, we greet you all. In the interest of time, I am not going to deliver what I have prepared, so that I don’t run the risk of being told that the time is out.



I want to zoom directly to what the portfolio committee that I am chairing has recommended because, it is wrong for some of us to think that when I stand here as the Chair of the portfolio committee I will stand here and advance my own ideas that has not been



canvassed within the committee. One thing that the committee has recommended to the Minister is the issue he has raised of the ministerial handbook.



The committee said that before everything else is done in terms of implementing it, it must be served before the committee, so that the committee must be able to see and engage with that ministerial handbook. Now, if you say that I’m wrong to say that, then I don’t know what I stand for as the Chairperson of the portfolio committee. The other thing that the portfolio committee addressed was that there are long lists of disciplinary cases that have been dragging on for too long.



Therefore, the portfolio committee said that the department must try and address that. No cases must drag on for a long time without being attended to. The other things that the portfolio committee has observed is that, the department has no plan, for instance, to attract young people and reskill them. The committee is urging the department to look into that issue of attracting young people, particularly the female form; reskill them and place them in your department.



Also, the committee has observed that, when you put people in managerial positions, you don’t appoint them. You leave them on acting capacity for quite too long, and that leads to confusion of roles. If your role is that of acting, you don’t have all capacity and powers because you are on an acting capacity. The committee agreed that this issue should be addressed by the committee. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members. Hon Schreiber will be delivering his speech and it is his maiden speech.



Mr L A SCHREIBER: Hon Chair, it is indeed true that South Africa is in desperate need of a new vision. We need a vision for a future where all South Africans can achieve prosperity. However, what our country does not need, is the ideologically infused hallucination that we got from the ANC during the state of the nation address and debate. No, what we need is a practical vision grounded in the year 2019, rather than in the year 1919.



The DA is the only party that offers such a modernising vision, including when it comes to drastically reforming the public service. We are the party for prosperity ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please lower your voices.



Mr L A SCHREIBER: ... and to create shared prosperity, our vision is to build a 21st century opportunity state that serves, empowers andcreates the freedom for citizens to reach for the stars. The opportunity state is the one that judges every decision on the basis of whether it expands possibilities for citizens to prosper; it is where bureaucrats becomes public servants; where a dedicated core of professionals shun corruption in all its forms; where Home Affairs is never offline and where all teachers are well trained and dedicated.



Unfortunately, with exception of DA-led municipalities and the Western Cape, South Africa is a depressingly long way-way from achieving this vision. Today, more citizens are trapped in poverty than ever in the history of our country. As always, the ANC’s response to this as we have heard here today, is to double down on more of the same. The budget before us today makes it clear that the government has no serious plan to fundamentally reform the public service.



Follow South Africans, our government is trapped in denial. Instead of winning themselves off of their outdated ideological drug, the ANC is upping the dose, and hoping to escape into a comforting hallucination populated by bullet trains and imaginary cities.

Undeterred by engineering the collapse of the public health sector, they now want to nationalise private care. After plunging the country into recession, they now want to tell you where to invest your pension.



Following the destruction of Eskom, they now want to sink another R230 billion of your money down to that bottomless pit. Despite the Minister’s earlier words, the ANC has in fact created a patronage state that does not empower citizens, but controls and steals from them. So, how do we get from our current patronage state to the DA’s opportunity state? The first step, which can be taken immediately, is to dramatically cut frivolous expenditure on maintaining the luxury lifestyles of Cabinet members.



I was introduced to a new concept today of an old new ministerial handbook, but I would like to suggest that instead of coming up with new concepts, we cut that thing to the bone. In the midst of the economic crisis that saw the economy decline by 3,2% in the last



quarter, the so-called old new ministerial handbook, continues to spend millions of rands on luxuries.



Dear taxpayer, did you know that under the old new handbook, you will be paying for the likes of former Ministers like Des Van Rooyen to fly business class around the country for the rest of their lives. Nearly 150 000 people lost their jobs as a consequence of Van Rooyen’s four days as Finance Minister. While he is rewarded and jets around the country on taxpayer’s money, the thousands of families who had their lives ruined, are struggling to put food on the table.



This madness must come to an end, now. The Western Cape which introduced its own stream lined, not old new, but stream lined handbook in 2011, has consistently been rated as the best run government in South Africa. [Applause.] The Western Cape proves that none of these luxuries are required for Ministers to do their jobs. This is why I have already called for the Department of Public Service and Administration, and as we have heard here today, they will appear before the parliamentary committee to accept recommendations on how to dramatically cut the ministerial handbook. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please do not drown the speaker.



Mr L A SCHREIBER: Public money is meant to create prosperity for the people, not to buy porches for politicians. Secondly, we must wipe cadre deployment from the face of the earth. It not only breads mediocrity, but it also lies at the root of corruption. I am glad that the hon Minister mentioned the Zondo Commission, because cadre deployment is the original state capture. Therefore, I will be writing to the Zondo Commission to requesting them to launch a dedicated investigation into the ANC’s cadre deployment committee.



To eradicate the practice once and for all, the DA will also be proposing a Private Members Bill to amend the Public Service Commission Act. A key reason why we still have teachers who are not in class and police officers who do not protect, is because the leaders of these institutions are appointed not on the basis of competence, but on the basis of being loyal ANC cadres. Our Private Members Bill will take the power of appointments of the Director- General’s and all other senior government senior positions away from politicians and give it to the Public Service Commission.



The Bill will also take direct aim at corruption which fills the wheels of the ANC’s patronage state. Over the years, the Public Service Commission has recommended countless recommendations which were roundly ignored, because they don’t have the power to enforce them. The Amendment Bill will consequently enhance the Public Service Commission to punish offenders by making it a criminal act to defy its recommendations.



Parliament recently enacted similar powers for Auditor-General, and it’s high time that the Public Service Commission got its own set of sharp teeth. Now, rather than catching the next set of bullet train to the hon President’s club chuchuland, the third step we need to take, is to tackle the public sector debt crisis head-on by restructuring and privatising where required.



It’s time to be honest about this. The job of a leader is not to cover in fear of public sentiment; sometimes the job is to tell hard truths. This is one of those times. The hard truth is that South Africa’s public sector as it currently exists is not sustainable.

Currently, R5,83 out of every R10 that’s paid in taxes, goes to servicing public debt and paying wages for public servants.



Last year the government granted R30 billion more in wage increases than what had been budgeted. This means that only R4,70 out of every R10 that we take in taxes, is actually available to spend on the people. Despite all of this, during the debate on a state of the nation address and as we have heard from the Minister today, the hon Pravin Gordhan and the Minister try to pretend that South Africa is not in some kind of crisis.



The hon Pravin Gordhan desperately tries to convince us that our public sector was not bloated and inefficient, and this on a very same day that Denel, Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, and lot of municipalities had to beg lenders for money just to pay salaries.

Restructuring must happen, and it must happen in a responsible manner. We must aid workers with severance packages, jobs replacement and reskilling.



But while the hon Gordhan and his colleagues do not shy away from using from using the lives of thousand of workers as a political football, the question he fails to ask is, what about the impact on millions of citizens if we fail to restructure and privatise? What about the millions of South Africans who are already forced to pay exorbitant taxes and have less money left to build wealth and prosperity?



Without fundamental reform, public servants will be jobless, the state will be bankrupt and taxpayers will be left destitute. This is the hard truth, but the sooner we face it, the better. Hon Chair, unlike the ANC, the DA is not escaping to the fantasy land of Ramakandla, we are not afraid to look for citizens in the eye and acknowledge the socioeconomic atrocity in this country, and that we cannot keep on doing the same things that got us into mess in the first place.



Real leaders don’t escape into dreams; real leaders face up to reality. We need to implement the plan I outlined here today, to curtail expenses on luxuries like the ministerial handbook, build a professional public service through ending cadre deployment, give the Public Service Commission real power and undertaking fundamental structure reform. This is the only way to ensure that patronage for some is replaced by prosperity for all. Thank you. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, we encourage and make hon members aware of those members that are making their maiden speeches so that they are not disturbed on their first speeches. ... [Interjections.] Order. However, we also need to advise that members who making their maiden speeches should not go on offensive facts, because they open themselves up for attack as



well. So, it’s just a simple advice. Hon members, order, I welcome the next speaker, hon Motsepe. You’re welcome, ma’am.



Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Service and Administration. If this country is going to build an effective and efficient Public Service, which will drive economic development, and provide quality Public Service two things must happen:



Firstly, the responsibilities and capacity of the state must be increased; and secondly, employees of the state must be fairly compensated, skilled and inspired. That is why in this new Parliament the EFF will be re-introducing a Private Member’s Bill, which will compel all spheres of government including state-owned entities to in-source all workers.



We are introducing this bill, the in-sourcing Bill, because neo- liberal economics adopted and implemented by the ANC and DA have seen the collapse of our Public Service, and its ability to deliver services. Every sphere of the state from national government and municipalities to state-owned entities, outsource basic government functions and services worth billions of rands every year. But these billions of rands do not go into the hands of the exploited workers.



They only see a small fraction. The money goes to the labour brokers, middlemen, and companies subcontracting these workers to government. This is exploitative, fuels corruption through the tendering process, and only serves the interests of small elites. Once our in-sourcing Bill is passed, the government will have no choice, but to directly employ all those currently outsourced across all spheres of government. Finally putting an end to these exploitative and wasteful practises.



The City of Joburg under direction from the EFF in council has already begun the process of in-sourcing workers, and more will follow. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela ) Order! Order, hon members!



Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: This is how the city saves more money than when it was outsourced, and the workers are now getting paid more than double what they were earning when they were subcontracted. This has changed the lives of thousands of families lifting them from a poverty wage, to a wage that has allowed them to live in dignity.

This is an example, government as a whole, must and soon will follow. In-sourcing will also help bring an end to the corruption we



have seen engulf the tendering system -where we see government officials giving their friends and comrades contracts to provide workers for gardening, cleaning, security and maintenance services. This is how companies like Bidvest made billions. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela) Order, hon members!



Mrs C C S MOTSEPE: Off government contracts which directly and indirectly benefited members of this Cabinet, and who have served on the Board of Bidvest. When we talk about in-sourcing and increasing government capacity, we are not only talking about cleaning, security and maintenance services that the state requires but we are also talking about the services the state delivers. We are talking about plumbers, builders, electricians, engineers, mechanics, software designers and all other workers currently outsourced by government to provide services the state is meant to deliver.



If the government does not have to pay companies inflated fees for these services, and instead paid them directly. The state could build its own roads and hospitals, develop its own software, repair its assets, and still pay decent salaries, medical aid and all other benefits given to state employees. This will lead to an improvement



of government’s service delivery as workers will be energised and motivated to provide quality service.



Minister if your government wants to realise an effective Public Service in an economy that is growing, and able to meet the needs of its citizens you will support our in-sourcing Bill, and begin to increase state capacity. However, this you most likely will not do. Instead, you are doing the exact opposite, and you are threatening to cut the size of the Public Service, which will negatively affect service delivery. But we want to warn you that government must not cut the size of the Public Service, and must not think about freezing salaries. This is the exact opposite of what needs to happen. Instead the salaries of teachers, nurses and police officers must be increased as a matter of priority.



Minister before I close there is one other issue I would like to raise with you. And that is the failure of a number of government departments and entities, including the Department of Labour and SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, to comply with the 2012 ruling of the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council that all Assistant Directors in the Public Service must have their salary level upgraded from level nine to 10, and all Deputy Directors must have



their salary level upgraded from level 11 to 12.



It is now seven years later and there are still government employees to whom this ruling applied who have not seen their salaries upgraded. We have written letters to your predecessor and the departments that are not complying, but we have received little or no response. We hope that while you are in office, you will commit yourself to deal with these issues once and for all, and that all government employees who are owed salary upgrades receive them now. So, the EFF reject this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]



Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, the role of this department is to oversee the performance of government departments, and public entities. By doing so, it should promote the levels of socioeconomic development, we require in order to achieve the aims and objectives set out by the National Development Plan 2030.





Ukuba sikubone lokhu kwenzeka mhlonishwa ingxenye yako odabeni lwabasebenzi siyadinga ukuba abasebenzi kube abasebenzi abaqondayo umsebenzi wabo, abaqeqeshekileyo futhi abanenkathalo ukusebenzela



isizwe. Singaboni njengoba nje sibone kulezinsuku ezedlule, omunye womame ebelethela egcekeni enganakiwe.





Furthermore, currently there is a need to develop capacity and professional ethos in government employees from several departments. We believe that the reason people receive bad and poor services when they go to certain administrative offices, such as Home Affairs, Social Development, police stations and others is because of poor morale and lack of love for their jobs.



Part of the responsibilities of this department is to establish norms and standards related to integrity, ethics, conduct and anticorruption. However, we see more and more officials from various departments who do not exhibit the behaviour as set out by this department’s code of conduct. We see issues such as the ill treatment of patients in public hospitals. We also see the large scale of corruption and looting by those who occupy highest offices in the various commissions that are run by the current government.



Chairperson, we hope that one day those who are involved in corruption are brought to book. We fear that there is a lack of commitment from the side of the political wing to punish those who



are found guilty of having committed unethical behaviour, such as the case of Cash Paymaster Services, CPS, and Sassa to mention a few.



Chairperson, the erosion of accountability, though and corruption remains a persistent cancer that will, if left unchecked will totally consume our Public Service. Our legislative and regulatory frameworks, our democratic checks and balances — these are all in order — the problem with corruption is the people that staff our Public Service.



The National School of Governance must encompass an ethos and anticorruption culture amongst our Public Service officials. We call for the budget to be utilised in a manner that promotes training and educational programmes that deal with ethics and professionalism.

Chairperson, ...





 ... umhlonishwa ukhulume nge-Batho Pele ngiyafisa mhlawumbe kukekugxilwe kulena. Kuyalimaza ukubona indlela abasebenzi beMinyango abenza ngayo nxa ngabe kufike umphakathi uzodinga usizo. Ngenza isibonelo nje ngendawo yangakithi eMpangeni, idolobha lethu lapha emahhovisi wezaseKhaya abasebenzi bakhona ngehora lesithathu



bavala iminyango bangasizi abantu ukuze baqede abangaphakathi. Abagaphandle kuthiwa ababuyele emuva emakhaya babuye ngakusasa bezosizwa. Kuyabalimaza abantu bakithi lokho ngoba uzoqonda Ngqongqoshe ngoba nawe usuka ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Abantu basuka ezindaweni ezikude ngamabhasi bezodinga usizo kufuneke bangene ezindlekweni nangakusasa sebebuyela emahhovisi noma abanye ubafice belele emnyango. Lokhu kwenzeka ikakhulu emahhovisi wezaseKhaya eMpangeni ubafica belele emnyango abantu ngenxa yokudinga usizo uma ubuka nezinkalo abazihambayo Ngqongqoshe.



Siyadinga ke mhlonishwa ukuthi sibone uMnyango wenza kangcono njengoba uthembisile ukuthi kuningi uMnyango obona ukuthi kufuneka kugudluzwe. Uyasho nokuthi nobungani buzophuma eMnyanweni. Abantu basebenze ngeqiniso nokwethembeka esizweni.



Izwe lethu libeneshwa lokuthi abasebenzi abaningi babonakala bangakukhathaleli ukusebenzela isizwe kepha basebenzela izisu zabo. Umuntu esekushilo konke lokhu siyasixhasa isabelomali lesi ukuba loMnyango ukwazi ukusebenza kodwa okukhulu kuyabonakala ukuthi kukhona ukunqwebelana kwezinto eMnyangweni kahulumeni. Kuze kube neMinyango emibili noma emithathu enikezwa umsebenzi owodwa. Uyabona nje lo msebenzi uMnyango wakho owunikeziweyo awuhlukene noMnyango ophethwe uNgqongqoshe uJackson. I-National planning and Evaluation



ayihlukene ngempela ngoba uma ubuka bonke abasebenzi kufuneka ababuke ndawonye ukuthi kuqhubekani noma yena ebika kuMongameli. Ngiyathokoza kakhulu. [Ihlombe.]



Ms H A JORDAAN: Hon Chair, I quote the committee report on the following, the Department of Public Service and Administration is expected to implement and coordinate interventions aimed at achieving – and listen carefully now – efficient, effective and development-orientated public service which is an essential element of a capable and developmental state as envisioned in the National Development Plan 2030. And furthermore, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa envisages a public service that is professional, accountable and development-orientated. However, the current state of public service and administration is neither efficient nor effective and definitely not development orientated. And the constitutional vision of a professional and accountable public service is merely that, a vision, nothing more. The ruling party has not only failed to give effect to the provisions of the Constitution but also their own National Development Plan 2030. But, let me give credit where credit is due. There are many public servants who still deliver excellent work and we would like to thank them for that. It is however not due to the leadership and governance of the ANC but in spite of it.





Gister het ons die Departement van Arbeid se begroting gedebateer. Dit was gemeensaak dat werkloosheid in Suid-Afrika ’n reuse probleem is. Die departement se mandaat is uitgebrei om werkskepping in te sluit, maar die regering verstaan nie werkskepping deur middel van ekonomies groei nie.



Dit is makliker vir die regering om bloot meer mense in die staatsdiens aan te stel. Vir die ANC-regering is staatsdepartemente werkskeppingsinitiatiewe en plekke waar hulle kaders, waarvoor daar nie plek in rade, wetgewers en die Parlement is nie, kan aanstel.



Daar is talle voormalige ANC-LPs wat nie na 8 Mei teruggekeer het Parlement toe nie en nou vinniger as wat hulle Akasiapark kan ontruim, in hoë poste in staatsdepartemente aangestel is.





Therefore, I foresee great difficulty with the initiative to trim the public sector wage bill.





Tans is die openbare sektor se salarisrekening ’n reuse probleem en las op die fiskus, met nagenoeg R8, agb Schreiber, van elke R10 wat



deur die regering bestee word, wat na openbare amptenare se salarisse gaan.





Nk M S KHAWULA: Mhlonishwa Sihlalo, nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo. Iqalile futhi inkathazo. Asikho isiZulu la, alukho nje ulimi lomuntu omnyama la, yisiBhunu, yisiNgisi, yisiBhunu yisiNgisi, senzenjani-ke manje? Akukho ngisho Ukhozi la, ngisho Igagasi, Ligwalagwala, lutho. Cha! Cha! Cha! Umhlobo Wenene lutho.



USIHLALO WESIKHASHANE (Nk J Manganye): Sikuzwile MaKhawula sizoyilungisa.





Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, on a point of order: I understand that there are people in South Africa who are still in love with the colonial language. They are very fond of English. It is their constitutional right. Can I ask you to allow the hon member to keep on with the process of decolonising South Africa to speak her indigenous language of Afrikaans.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms J Manganye): Hon member take your seat.





Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngeke sivume izilimu zabokufika kube yizona ezizodlala ngathi la eNingizimu Afrika. Sicela izilimi zethu.

Azidlali. Izilimu zokufika asizidingi.





The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms J Manganye): May you please proceed. Proceed hon member.





Me H A JORDAAN: Die staat se salarisrekening beloop ’n reusagtige R587 miljard.





I quote the Finance Minister, Tito Mboweni in saying, if R8 in every R10 in the public sector goes to salaries that leave only R2 to fix a hospital, to rebuild a school that has been burned down, to ensure public safety, and the list goes on.





Suid-Afrika se staatsdienste is groot en lomp en ampatenare word volgens internasionale standaarde te veel betaal.





This is a result of the centralist thinking founded on the ANC’s ... [Interjections.]





Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngokukhulu ukuhlonipha bafowethu ... [Ubuwelewele.]



USIHLALO WESIKHASHANE (Nk J Manganye): MaKhawula, uma ngingakakukhombi ubophamisa isandla ngizokukhomba.



Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyaxolisa-ke! Ngiyaxolisa mhlonishwa. Ngicela ungikhombe.



USIHLALO WESIKHASHANE (Nk J Manganye): Bengithi siphezu kwalo udaba, baphumile bayolilungisa ngaphandle. Ngiyabonga.

Nk M S KHAWULA: Uxolo, kodwa-ke kusho ukuthi makame ngoba la ...



Ms M S KHAWULA: ... we are working. We came here to work.





Akukwazi ukuthi ngathi siyasebenza abanye kuthiwe mabame, cha, kufanele sisebenze sonke kanyekanye.




We are not fighting but ...





 ... nathi sifuna izilimi zethu ngoba mina uma ngikhuluma ngesiZulu, bayalalela bona. Yindaba nithande ukuthi bona bezwe ukuthi sithini ngabo? Musani ukusidayisa nina.



USIHLALO WESIKHASHANE (Nk J Manganye): Uzwakele mhlonishwa uKhawula. Thatha isihlalo sakho.





Hon member, I didn’t point at you.



AN HON MEMBER: I thought you were addressing me.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms J Manganye): No! No! I am not addressing you, I am addressing the House. Check ... [Interjections.] No you cannot rise on a point of order whilst I am still addressing the point of order. Hon member, you may proceed and then check your Channel 3 ... [Interjections.] is that ... [Interjections.] you can proceed.



Me H A JORDAAN: ... communist ideology and is not the solution. The solution is also not to leave essential posts vacant while paying exorbitant salaries to political appointees who are not qualified or have no experience in the relevant field. The solution does, however, lie in a smaller, more efficient state administration where officials are appointed based on merit or held accountable and not merely appointed because they are cadres.





Besparings op die salarisrekening, wat deur ’n kleiner administrasie teweeg gebring word, moet van die hoogste tot op die laagste vlak deurgevoer word. Sleutelstaatsdienspersoneel soos verpleegsters, onderwysers en polisielede moet beskerm en bemagtig word.





The power of trade unions to dictate to public service regarding salaries and benefits and forcing the government to agree to unaffordable salary increases must be stopped. Budgets of departments should adequately provide for the annual salary increases and the budgeted increase should at the end of the day be the increase regardless of what the alliance partners say. Also Minister, through you Chair, the practice of automatic performance bonuses without there actually being any form of performance has



always been unacceptable and we welcome the fact that the department now also realises this. It is, however, not good enough for it to be phased out, it must be stopped immediately.





Die staat moenie ’n primêre werkverskaffer wees nie, maar moet eerder werkskepping stimuleer en bevorder deur eerstens af te sien van verkeerde prioriteite en skeefgetrekte beleidsrigtings en tweedens, die privaatsektor in staat te stel en te bemagtig om werk te voorsien.



Ek sluit af. Die VF Plus wens die agb Minister sterkte toe met die reuse taak wat op sy skouers rus, ...





 ... especially with regard to instilling an ethical ethos and achieving a clean public service and administration by preventing, detecting and combating corruption. This will not be easy as the continued investigations as conducted by the Zondo commission has illustrated thus far. I thank you.





Chairperson, Minister of Public Service and Administration, hon



Senzo Mchunu, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon Members of Parliament, Chairperson and Members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, esteemed guests, ladies and gentlemen, fellow South Africans, our very own National Development Plan, NDP, Vision 2030 says:



“Government begins in the home, grows into the community, expands towards the city, flares towards the province and engulf the entire land.”



This statement holds true as we are a government that puts people first so as to rectify the inequalities in the distribution of service. Hence the Batho Pele Principle.



It is a right of every South African citizen to be treated with respect, dignity and to receive excellent service from every department and institutions of government. I must hasten to say that there are many of public servants who deliver just that service.



Hon Minister Senzo Mchunu has just elaborated on achievements over the past 25years... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms J MANGANYE): Hold on please. Hon members who are seated next to us at the gallery, you are not allowed to take photos in Parliament. You may proceed hon member.





Minister, Senzo Mchunu has just elaborated on achievements over the past 25years as well as outlined the priorities we will be implementing and I will be reflecting on other entities that supports the work of the department. These are the Government Employees Housing Scheme, the National School of Government, Centre for Public Service Innovation and the Government Employees Medical Scheme.



Delivering the state of the nation, Sona, President Cyril Ramaphosa stated that:



“While we have made great progress in providing housing, many South Africans still need land to build homes and earn livelihood. In the next five years we will accelerate the provision of well-located housing and land to poor South Africans.”



The challenge of home ownership faced by many South Africans is a hardship which is also faced by many public servants who are still confronted with difficulties of owning homes of their own. In line with the Batho Pele of Access, we are working together with organised labour through the housing scheme to address this ordeal. Measures that are being implemented includes among others, the provision of housing allowance for the purpose of home ownership, with those renting for accommodation being assisted to save towards home ownership, supporting, educating and advising employees on housing options and assisting employees to access affordable home loans and housing products.



The 2015 agreement at the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, between government and organised labour established a housing scheme, for approximately 1,3 million government employees. As at 30 June 2019, the Government Employees Housing Scheme has significantly increased the number of employees utilising the housing allowance for home ownership. For instance, in 2015 there were 355 000 eligible public servants using the housing allowance for home ownership. In 2019 the number has increased to 653 099. The number of those renting has also been reduced from 596 000 in 2015 to 289 088 in 2019. This is an investment that calls for appreciation.



In 2018, a total amount of R4,5 billion was saved through the individual-linked savings facility by public servants who are renting for accommodation. This amount has grown to R7,2 billion as at 31 May 2019. The housing scheme will be looking into ways on how to utilise this financial muscle to bring more benefits to public servants.



We are also reviewing our product offering. We have taken a stance that financial institutions that would like to partner with us in providing home loans should be prepared to offer affordable interest rates at prime-minus against the strength of employees’ payroll deductions. We know that this may be a tough call to those used to the status quo, but we will insist for the benefit of our public servants.



We will also explore solutions that address public servants’ indebtedness which is currently a major hindrance towards home- ownership. We will continue with outreach campaigns to popularise the scheme to employees. A training manual is currently being developed and will be finalized in this financial year. The aim of the manual is to educate human resource units in government departments that are charged with the responsibility of assisting employees to access housing services as well as benefits.



One of the seven priorities of the 6th Administration is to focus on education skills and health. The future requires a state that is capable of playing a developmental and transformative role which still public servants who in line with Batho Pele Principle of information are knowledgeable about the services they have to deliver to our citizens. This is also the core mandate of the National School of Government. The school will be rolling out training and development opportunities through a suite of 129 courses and programmes targeting all salary levels in the public service.



For the 2019-20 Financial Year, the school will target to train a total of 53 283 learners in the four broad training streams of leadership, management, administration and induction. We are positive to achieve this target. Furthermore, in the 2019-20 Financial Year, the school plans to train 3 000 unemployed graduates and interns through the Breaking Bearers to Entry into the Public Service Programme. This programme is being revamped to support the Formal Graduates’ Recruitment Scheme in the public service.



Hon members, to ensure the capacitation of senior management services, SMS, the school introduced a compulsory induction programme called the Executive Induction Programme, to all newly



appointed director-generals and deputy director-generals. The programme includes coaching by qualified and professional coaches and mentoring by expects. This executive induction programme is critical in the current dispensation of macro-national organising of government. For 2019-20, the budget allocations for the school is R189 million, in included in the allocation for this year is an amount of R10 million ring-fenced for the roll-out of the mandatory courses.



The school has also projected to generate revenue to the amount of R143 million to augment the training trading account. The school will continue to collaborate and foster partnerships with both public and private sector training institutions domestically and internationally.        In 2019-20, we will be looking into the overall functioning of the school in order to align its mandate and product offerings to the 6th Administration priorities.



Ladies and gentlemen, the centre for Public Service and Innovation is uniquely positioned to spearhead innovation across the public service in order to promote the Batho Pele Principle of value for money. An innovative and Fourth Industrial Revolution ready public service recognises its trailblazers. Those young public servants who use their coding and data analytic skills to develop in-house



solutions instead of producing off the shelve solutions that barely works. Some of these young people, young coders are here today attending this budget vote debate.



Following the very successful first Public Sector Hackathon, Ignite- Hack, hosted by the Ministry for the Public Service and Administration in 2018, the centre has identified three potential solutions developed by teams of young coders. These include, just to mention one of the three solutions, Vulamanzi, a point-of-use water filtering solution using low-cost cutting edge materials to filter water, this has been successfully replicated in Limpopo Province.

Solutions such as Vulamanzi are critical to safeguard our people against water-borne disease where potable water is not yet available.



We will further engage the National Treasury to mainstream such innovations in all spheres of government. A Fourth Industrial Revolution Ready public service requires funding mechanisms that would enable us to develop new solutions, many still in conceptual stages, to address some of our most persisting challenges.



Going forward as the Ministry, we will be looking at means and ways of harnessing the focus research and development of the Centre for



Public Service Innovation. In partnership with the United Nation Development Programme, the centre is strengthening government’s foresight capacity by working closely with a number of government departments, to plan for resilience, adaptability and agility. The centre has been allocated a budget of R38 437 O00 for the 2019-20 Financial Year.



In carrying out these legislative responsibilities in terms of the health and wellness of employees in the public service as well as the Batho Pele value statement of “We Belong, We Care, We Serve,” government established a Government Employees Medical Aid Scheme Government Employee Medical Scheme, GEMS. The scheme emphasises prevention, screening and testing initiatives as an integral part of primary healthcare. GEMS, which had 705 192 principal members registered as at 31 December 2018, covers over 1,839 million beneficiaries. This makes the scheme the second largest medical scheme in the country and the largest restricted medical scheme.



To sustain affordability of GEMS, the board approved an average weighed GEMS contribution increase of 7,09% for 2019. This was one of the lowest in the medical schemes industry for the year. In addition, additional benefits for 2019 valued at R832 million were given back to members in the form of more benefits concentrating



mainly on the vulnerable groups mentioned in the National Health Insurance White Paper.



Furthermore, a new programme called the Service Management Programme was introduced in 2018 to improve member experience and satisfaction. The programme is made up of 11 initiatives, including complaint management and initiatives to improve access to healthcare cover by members.



To this effect, GEMS has established seven Client Liaison Offices, CLOs, in the seven provinces employing 155 young and previously unemployed graduates. In 2019, GEMS will establish two more CLOs or offices here in the Western Cape and Northern Cape.



The scheme reported a surplus of R4,02 billion for the 2018 Financial Year and increased its reserve ratio from 15,2% to 24,7%. The accumulated funds increased from R5,4 billion in 2017 to

R9,4 billion in 2018. It is expected that the reserve ratio will reach the required level of 25% by the end of 2019.



The scheme’s non-healthcare cost from 5,6% to 4, 9% which remains the lowest in the industry. We congratulate GEMS for receiving Unqualified Audits opinion from the Auditor-General since its



inception in 2005 to date.



Under the leadership of President Ramaphosa, we will work together as a nation as we seek the solutions to the challenges facing our country. We will do so in order to keep the legacy of former President Nelson Mandela alive by ensuring that we build a nation where everyone will cherish being part of this country.



Chairperson, it is our vision as a Ministry that the service needs of our people shall be our first consideration. And it is upon this vision led by the hon Minister Senzo Mchunu and supported by the Director-General, Prof. Levin, the staff of the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, and Ministry of Public Service and Administration Entities that we will endeavour to build an ideal developmental state that will provide service to our people as enshrined in the Constitution and the Batho Pele Principles of- Putting people first, with a commitment ethos that says Thuma Mina [Send me], to deliver services for our People in a professional, ethical and optimal Khawuleza mandate. To this, we are committed Chairperson. I thank you.








Mr C H M SIBISI: House Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members of the House, the NFP welcome the budget report on the Department of Public Service and Administration here today. The National School of Government is a very important aspect of this department. The need to train and transfer the necessary skills to public servants to best serve the public is vital in achieving the objectives set out by the Public Service Amendment Act. Particularly the need to uphold integrity, ethics, conduct and anti-corruption as well as transformation, reform, innovation and any other matter to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the public service and its service delivery to the public. However, the department must get these training courses accredited and training courses must indeed respond to the Fourth Industrial revolution. Not only will it increase productivity but empower those within the sector to become more innovative in serving the needs of the public. If the department stick to the following strategic priorities set out in the report, the department can meet all objectives:



A stable political, administrative interface; A public service career of choice;

Efficient, effective management and operations systems Increased responsiveness; and



Improved mechanisms to promote ethical behaviour in the public sector.





Siphinde sikunxuse, Macingwane, njengoba uke wakhuluma uthinta uMnyango Wezasekhaya, usizi olubhekene nabantu basemakhaya lukhulu ngalomnyango. Emnambithi abantu bafika ngothwalofu ebusuku bezongena ngakusasa belale emabhentshini. Sekukhona abafike bathi kumele ubaqashe bakubambele ulayini ebsuku uzongena ngakusasa, uqashe ukuba kulayini ngo-R400. kuwukuhlukumeza abantu, siyofisa mhlonishwa uMacingwane ubalekelele abantu kuphele lokhu okwenzeka eMnyangweni Wezasekhaya.





We seek to improve the working environment of public servants and create a culture of development within our public spaces. We need to make sure that workers are well equipped, enthusiastic about their work and have the passion to deliver adequate services to the people. Ethical leadership and ethical behaviour is the culture that we must adopt in all departments but most importantly this Department of Public Service and Administration. The services delivered must be done in an ethical manner that will create a



healthy working system Therefore; the NFP welcomes the budget tabled here today. Thank you.



Ms M T KIBI: Hon Chair of the House, the hon Minister and Deputy Minister, the chairperson of the committee, all director-generals that are with us here, fellow South Africans ...





... molweni ...





... We as the ANC support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]










The ANC has made a conscious decision that South Africa must become a capable and developmental state. The National Development Plan, NDP, gives specific attention to the capabilities of such a developmental state. The NDP suggests that the role of the Public Service Commission, PSC, be strengthened in order for the PSC to be able to champion the norms and standards as well as monitoring the



recruitment processes. The PSC addresses some key issues highlighted in the NDP on strengthening its advisory and oversight role which includes promoting the values and principles of the public service. The PSC, as a constitutional institution, needs to be capacitated financially and with technical experts, if the country is committed to building a capable and professional public service. Through its oversight reports, the PSC has continued to advise the government as well as Parliament on areas of progress and areas that undermine the ability of the state to deliver. The PSC has ensured that there is an improvement in the timeous submission of disclosure forms by senior managers with regard to the Financial Disclosure Framework.

However, as the ANC, we can only accept a 100% compliance rate with the financial disclosure framework.



The commission should speed up the analysis of information to detect if there are conflicts of interest before it is too late. E- disclosure system should serve as a preferred option in disclosing which is faster and better. We commend the Department of Public Service and Administration for the new regulations in the Public Service Regulations of 2016 on the prohibition of public servants from doing business with the state. This is a measure introduced by the ANC-led government to tackle conflict of interest and corruption. However, the PSC needs to monitor this provision



together with the Financial Disclosure Framework forms. [Applause.] In promoting sound labour relations in the Public Service, in 2017- 18, the PSC concluded 87% of grievance cases of which 560 cases were for public servants from levels 2-12, and 81% of those cases were concluded within 30 working days upon receipt of relevant information. Fifty-five cases were for levels 13 and above of which 93% were concluded within 45 working days of receipt of relevant information. [Applause.] In executing its constitutional mandate of promoting professional ethics during the period under review ... [Interjections





Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo.



USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Nk J Manganye): Angikasho ukuthi usungakhuluma mhlonishwa kodwa usungakhuluma manje.



Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, hhayi, ngikuthande izolo ugqoke izingubo ezibomvu. Kuvumelekile yini lana ngaphakathi ukuthi umuntu angaphuzi amanzi aphathe okuthize okungathi yitiye, utshwala besintu into enjalo nje? Kukhona umhlonishwa la ophethe into enjalo, manje angazi ngempela ukuthi kwenzakalani. Uyifihlile nje kanjalo.



USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Nk J Manganye): Mhlonishwa uKhawula, awuthathe isihlalo sakho, ngiyacela.



Nk M S KHAWULA: Hhayi! Hhayi! Hhayi! Hhayi! [Ubuwelewele.]





The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms J Manganye): Continue hon member.



Ms M T KIBI: ... the PSC conducted investigations aimed at improving public administration practices and good governance. In this regard, a total of 303 out of 360 investigations were finalised of which 210 of 303 were finalised within their respective timeframes which ranges from 45 days to three months. In relation to cases lodged through early resolution, the PSC received 27 cases of which 85% of the cases were finalised. We commend the PSC for doing a sterling job of closing cases within a reasonable time. [Applause.] We welcome various strategic research projects and initiatives undertaken by the PSC, spanning from the assessment of the impact of organisational restructuring, audit of qualification of SMS members in selected provinces, monitoring of career incidents of head of departments, HODs, to conducting investigations of procedure on incapacity Leave and ill-health Retirement application processes in identified provinces.



Senior managers got appointed in the public service without being subjected to competency assessment. This clearly indicates the need for continued monitoring, assessments and advice in many of these areas if we are serious about building a capable and professionalising public service. It was a resolution of the ANC’s 54th national conference, that, and I quote:



The merit principle must apply in the deployment of senior appointments based on legislated prescripts and in line with the minimum competency standards.



The ANC-led government is concerned that public servants are getting recruited and employed wrongfully. They are not getting employed based on merit. We call on the PSC to intensify addressing wrong appointments as a result of poor recruitment systems in public service. We commend the commission for progress made in respect of the prevention and combating of corruption in the Public Service. A total of 1 856 National Anti-Corruption Hotline, NACH, cases that were lodged with the PSC were referred to relevant national and or provincial departments. The PSC has observed an increase in the public interest to use NACH as a reliable mechanism to report alleged corruption cases. With regard to NACH cases lodged telephonically, 1 374 NACH cases were referred to national and



provincial departments or public entities and, 1 125 cases registered on the database were closed.



The National School of Government, NSG, has been responsive to the development of the youth for public service employment through the Breaking Barriers to Entry Programme. The school trained a total of

3 163 youth graduates in the 2017-18 financial year. Access to employment opportunities is limited, and competition for these posts is high, therefore a challenge. However, the training places learners at an advantage for employment opportunities. The school continues in the development of our public service leaders such as the introduction of the Executive Induction Programme for new entrants at deputy director-general and director-general levels and this includes coaching by qualified and professional NSG coaches and mentoring by former heads of department. We call on the School to make sure that the programmes continue to gain momentum across all salary levels in the public service. Through the use of technology, the NSG can offer Compulsory Induction Programme training to officials in 13 remote training sites within the Free State province. The NSG needs to expand its training within budgetary constraints to other remote rural provinces. With regard to the Centre for Public Service Innovation, South African citizens, like most other global citizens, are looking towards dynamic, creative



and innovative solutions to their challenges. As the ANC-led government, we need to respond accordingly, and to be a vibrant government. This is why we have a vibrant organisation such as the Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, which is rising to the challenge



Through, the Public Sector Innovation Awards, innovative ways are inspired and developed in continuing to provide innovative solutions to help improve the way in which services are delivered to our people. We welcome plans by the centre to facilitate and support replications for two CPSI award winnings. We urge the centre to consistently assist service delivery-oriented departments in designing innovative systems that ensure efficient, effective and rapid service delivery. Queue management in various departments such as Home Affairs and Health is a major concern hindering efficiency and impact on average time spent by clients before receiving services.





Thina ke singumbutho we-ANC, sizakuhlala ngamaxesha onke sizimisele ukukhonza abantu baseMzantsi Afrika, sitshintshe ubomi babo.



Mrs M O CLARKE: Chairperson, the core mandate of the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, is to implement and co- ordinate interventions aimed at achieving an efficient, effective and developmental orientated public service, as enshrined in the Constitution of South Africa Section 195(1) and the Public Service Act, Act 30 of 1994. The department aims to ensure that well skilled public servants are employed in government departments so that the state can deliver high quality services to our citizens.



How successful has government been in achieving the DPSA’s core mandate? We cannot be doing business as usual in the constrained environment we find our lives in, as a result of what the President described as a lost decade. No new dawn can be achieved if government is not prepared to take bold steps in change management and rooting out corruption in the public service.



The DPSA can only be successful in achieving its mandate if it fosters a politically independent, delivery orientated civil service. Strategic roles in government have for far too long been a reward mechanism for those who support the party as some sort of loyalty retainer.



Too many government institutions in South Africa are enablers for the rot to continue and to go unchecked, this was the order of the day under the leadership of Zuma and the new dawn under President Ramaphosa has not yielded results with many of these deployees still employed in the civil service.



Not just in the state of the nation address speech of the President, but also highlighted on 12th January during the President’s speech at the Moses Mabhida stadium. The President said he is committed to running a public service that is free from corruption and responsive to the needs of the South African citizens. Action speaks far louder than words. We need to see jail time for those public servants whom are found guilty of corruption.



Public procurement is high risk in South Africa, and during the lost decade was a major site of capture. As a result, corruption and bribery thrives at central government levels. Political patronage allows officials to engage in corrupt behaviour with impunity, no consequences are meted out due to low levels of law enforcement.



Under the DA government, we would ensure that any public servant found guilty of corruption receives a minimum jail sentence of 15- years.



Where we govern, we foster an independent, professional civil service. Sadly, this is not the case where the ANC governs. Instead, the public service here has become a place to park senior party members who could not be deployed in political roles.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members!



Mrs M O CLARKE: Government must be able to achieve an efficient and effective public service based on principals and fit for purpose.

The state cannot be a fail-safe mechanism for party members who cannot be hired elsewhere.



Healthcare is but one example that illustrates the key difference between professional versus a deployed civil service.



In the DA-run Western Cape this has been very successful and effective. It is the only province to digitalise patient records in the public health sector. The digital records span over 54 hospitals, 300 primary healthcare facilities, more than 100 pharmacies and 30 National Health Laboratories. The system currently hosts about 13 million patients spanning over 25 years, as no records are deleted or achieved from the system. This is a remarkable achievement.



Sadly, this has not been achieved in the rest of the country. The Gauteng province digital health system has not been completed. The system does not link up with the various sectors and the consequences thereof is that many patient’s information and files are missing or cannot be found on the system. This causes huge frustration when patients visit hospitals within Gauteng.



This can generally be said in terms of nurses being trained to work within an efficient, effective health care system. The nurse’s council is in disarray not being able to create accredited guidelines in order to ensure nurses are fit for purpose in public health care. This is just a tip of the iceberg in terms of government inefficiency and many more examples can be presented.



Let’s take bold steps to reform the public service sector and action such, South Africa cannot afford one more minute lost. We cannot be here next year during the budget period and no real reform and transgression has been made. I thank you. [Time expired.]



Mr B M MANELI: House Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Minister, Commissioner of the Public Service, PSC, the administrative representatives here, the National School of Governance, Director- General for the Centre for Public Service, the portfolio chair and



your portfolio committee members, hon Members of the House, for fear of confusion about what our vision is the Freedom Charter as adopted on 26 June 1955, in Kliptown, in its preamble, it makes clear our forebears have visualised a country where a government is elected basis of the will of all people and that no government would claim legitimacy unless it would have been have been based on the will of the people as a whole. We made this claim that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white at that time.



I want to state that, we didn’t only stop there, section 195, of the Constitution as it relates to public service; it goes further to indicate that we would have a public service that is representatives of the demographics of this country that is ethical and professional. This is what we said is the vision.



Indeed, the President in his state of the nation address took it further to point out that we have areas of focus and those areas of focus will include building up a capable state that is ethical and competent. This will in a way ensure that the experience of a citizen at each an every point of service should leave there with a fulfilling moment from a service delivery point. I want to make this point, because there is confusion about 1990 versus a new vision of the DA. Unfortunately, in the Western Cape this vision doesn’t



exist, because the people of Khayelitsha and Gugulethu are still refuges in their own country, ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order!



Mr B M MANELI: ... when the white privilege is still presented as the case. In essence, I want to indicate that the ANC knows a lot has to be done to meet the needs of our people. It is against this background that we have put up the National Development Plan and this plan talks to the capability of the state that resolves complex problems that we have.



I want to state that, it is unfortunate that when you took over Tshwane and Johannesburg, you have moved them from being municipalities of excellence as confirmed by the Auditor-General, because we respect the Auditor-General as independent. It has confirmed that Johannesburg and Tshwane with Tshwane being number one, has now joined those that have unauthorised expenditure at highest level.



Allow me to indicate that, furthermore, ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order!



Mr B M MANELI: ... the NDP highlights the need to run to this state





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, can you please take your seat?



Mr B M MANELI: ... and I want to state that ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member! Hon Maneli?



Mr B M MANELI: ... this has been about cadre development.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member! Hon Maneli? Could you please take your seat, Sir?



Mr B M MANELI: I will squat.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, just a minute. Uh, keep on standing. There is a question. What are you rising on?



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chairperson, I want to know if the hon member is prepared to take a question.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): He is not prepared. Hon members! Wait a bit, Mr. Hon member, please, take into consideration your proximity to the speaker. You are too close on both sides. You are too close to the speaker and you are disturbing him. You are disturbing him. The fact of the fact of the matter is that he is on the podium. Could you please respect that?





Khulumelani phansi bahlonishwa.



Mr B M MANELI: ... as I continue, we do indeed recognise that the unevenness in the capacity has led to uneven performance in the public service as admitted by our Minister and Deputy Minister, but that we are doing something about it. We are changing the situation. Of course, we get accused that this would have happened because party patronage and cadre development.



I want to remind you that in all the municipalities where you have taken over, you fired competent staff, because you thought they were linked to the party and today the Auditor-General reports are proving that you have taken those that are competent in order to



reimburse the rented crowd from the townships that don’t support your ideologically but because they must be rented to do so.



Allow me to indicate that, indeed, as we deal with the public service as a career of choice, we support the Minister and his team that indeed we have to ensure that we have competent public service and we made public service an interesting employer of choice. Allow me to indicate that unlike elsewhere others do analyse the problem like all other philosophers would have done without changing the world. They told us about the problems of a girl but they have not voted for a Budget today.



I want to say that we support a Budget because we know that this Budget will ensure that the graduate recruitment scheme framework and the internships will continue to happen giving an opportunity to young people and experiential learning that others are still having certificates in institutions of learning because they don’t have this opportunity, that even the products of capital on my left has never given them this opportunity. Therefore, the state the state remains the only chance that they have to entry into jobs.



Allow me to indicate this point once again.



Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Uh, what is your point of order, Ma’am?



Mr B M MANELI: Allow me to make this point again.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Uh, Mr Maneli. Hon Maneli? There is a point of order. Why are you rising, hon member?





Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa bengithi mina ilungu elihloniphekile alithi ukuhlala phansi kancane. [Ubuwelewele.] Hlala phansi. Akahlale phansi phela uma ngikhulume. Isihlalo asikho yini? Ngiyaxolisa ke kepha ungaguqa kodwa ngamadolo. [Ubuwelewele.] Bengithi mina Sihlalo, umhlonishwa njengoba ekhuluma akazame ehlise izwi kancane ngoba sekubuhlungu izindlebe. Asizwani nomsindo kanti futhi kukhona namaKhosi lapha phakathi kwethu azoze agule.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): That is not a point of order. Continue, hon member.



Mr B M MANELI: At least is an indication that she has heard as I proceed. Indeed the part of corruption we are also very thankful that the Minister has addressed this point long before and indicated the about the actions they are going to take.



Allow me to also welcome the point that the Zondo Commission begins to deal with all these matters that relates to the state capture. I understand the eagerness from the DA side to write to the commission on other matters. May I also invite you to write to the Zondo Commission that all the matters that are in the media, a councillor of the DA in the West Rand, Blakes Travel owner is cited in the Bosasa saga? The DA at this point in time has never done anything to that councillor, instead rewarded as an alderman of the DA. So, if you can also write about this so that we know that you are a prisoner of your own conviction as it relates to fighting corruption, because it is Blakes Travel. We may also have to check whether they have not helped you financial as they benefited from this crooks.



On that score, allow me to continue with my speech to say that indeed, the part of responsiveness, we are very happy that the school of governance and the Centre for Public Service



Innovation are doing everything possible to ensure that we change the situation in terms of the using technology and all that. I must say though that when you stand and don’t support this Budget, I want to state that the little girl who has been identified to have all problems in every level of service has been failed dismally and probably we will think differently in terms of the vote going forward, whether you can be relied upon at this point in time, like the people of Tshwane have been dumped without telling them that you leave at anytime and yet they still expect those services that you wanted to give it to them.



May I also say this? At least as I was coming here, I was motivated, because the ANC recognises talent of South Africans. There is an esteemed South African that I listened to his music as I was coming here and was very motivated. Of course, that musician wouldn’t be other than Ringo. I liked him, in that love and he makes the point and I likes this song, “shut the tears and grow”. He makes the point that this things will not just happen. He even quotes, Biko, that God is not in the habit of coming down to resolve our problems. In fact, he goes further to say that we teach the children not to take freedom for granted.



Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Chairperson.





Asinaye uRingo kule Ndlu sinelungu elihloniphekile.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Member! Hon member!



Mr B M MANELI: Not to vote for the Budget, because a Budget is a financial expression of priorities and programmes.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Member!








Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Chairperson.



Mr B M MANELI: So, in that score, I hope Radebe, ...





 ... siyophinde siyilalele sobabili le nto ukwenzela ukuthi ... [Akuzwakali.].



Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Member! Hon Maneli!



Mr B M MANELI: Allow me to indicate ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Maneli! I know that you are in top flight. There is a point of order called. Hon member, what is your point of order?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member!





Nk M S KHAWULA: Bengicela ukuthi kungadlalwa la. Asinaye uRingo kule Ndlu sinelungu elihloniphekile uRingo ukuthi wena uyamdelela, uvotelwe ngabantu njengoba elana ePhalamende. [Ubuwelewele.] Kufuneka ukwazi lokho. Ungenzi into ongeke uyijabulele uma ibhekiswa kuwena.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member that is not a point of order.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Order, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Maneli?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order! Order, please. Hon member, why are you rising?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am rising on a point of order, Chair. The hon member on the podium must not patronise our benches. He mustn’t quote one of us and then quote that we are not supporting the Budget. We are not supporting the ANC Budget because of corruption which is happening within the public service. That is the main reason why we are not supporting that Budget. So, don’t patronise us. Stick to your debate. Stick to your stripping, otherwise we will attend to you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members! Hon members, order! Hon members, stop shouting at each other.



Mr M A DIRKS: Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members! Hon members, order! Hon members, stop shouting at each other. Can I make a ruling on that? Hon Mokause, that is not a point of order. Hon member!



Mr M A DIRKS: Hon Chairperson, perhaps for the sake of progress since our member is dealing with other issues here, he should just withdraw the issue about Ringo, because he is dealing very well with the issues here.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have already made a ruling about that.



Mr M A DIRKS: Yes, just to say we all love Ringo. We listen to Ringo’s music. We love Ringo. I listen to Ringo. I love your music, but just call him hon member for the sake of the House.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I have already made a ruling on that. The ruling was that, there is nothing wrong with that. Hon member, can you continue?



Mr B M MANELI: Thank you Chair, of course in increasing responsiveness of public servants and accountability to citizens.



Mr M M CHABANGU: Point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): There is a point of order again, just hold on, hon member. Hon member, what is your point of order?



Mr M M CHABANGU: Chair, my point of order is that, we are not supposed to call each other by names here and if you allow that we should call each other by names, we are going to do that. There is only one Ringo here and that Ringo is honourable, because he is a Member of Parliament. This hon member can’t come here and say Ringo and then you said he was talking about somebody outside. Otherwise, we are going to make it not possible run the House.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. Hon members, I made a ruling on that and if hon members have a problem with that, there are processes to follow, so that we resolve the matter as soon as possible. There are processes that you can follow to address that, but for now a ruling has been made. Can we then allow a member to continue?



Ms M S KHAWULA: No, point of order, Chairperson.





Cha, Cha! Mhlonishwa Ntombela, siyakuhlonipha.





Mr M M CHABANGU: You can’t do that.



Ms M S KHAWULA: You can’t do what you want to do now to us. [Interjections.] We are hon members here.








Mnu M M CHABANGU: Heyi wena asikhulumi nawe.






Mnu M M CHABANGU: Ngikhuluma nalomuntu. [Uhleko.] Hhayi mina awungazi. [Uhleko.]



Nk M S KHAWULA: Lalela mhlonishwa Ntombela. Uyabona nje ngisho noma ngilalela isibongo sakho, sikhombisa ukuthi ungumnumzane. Yabona njengoba ungumnuzane nje kumele uhlonishwe. Ukuze uhlonishwe nawe kufuneka uqinisekise ukuthi awubukeli muntu phansi. Akaxolise kulento yakhe ayishilo ngoba yilungu elihloniphekile leli.

Ningadlali ngathi la, asizile ukuzodlala lapha. [Ubuwelewele.] Yebo angasho njalo ukuthi lungu elihloniphekile Madlingozi [Ubuwelewele.]



Angavele ambize ngegama. Ngicela nithule. Wena sizokhipha itiye leli elingaphansi lapho kuwena. Lizokushisa itiye ngiyakutshela [Uhleko.] Uphuza itiye kule Ndlu ngoba ubona lo Sihlalo ovuma yonke into.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member? I do understand what you are saying, but in the mist of you saying that, you should also observe the Rules of the House. If you are aggrieved with the decision that I have taken, I am saying there are processes that needs to be followed and all members here, it is a fact that we are expected to respect the manner in which we are calling each other. The manner in which we refer to each other, we should always do that. And if you are aggrieved with the decision I have taken, hon Mokause, please, follow the correct processes. Hon Maneli, if it happens that you refer to the name of a person, please, respectfully do so. Thank you, you can continue.



Mr M A DIRKS: Chair, whilst you are busy addressing the issue, the member from the DA there points to our member here and say let the VBS continue. There is no VBS here; there is an hon member.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, that is ... [Interjections.] Hon member, that happened while ... [Interjections.] Please note that this happened while I was



addressing it. So, I did not see that. Can I check with the member whether it is true?



Ms M S KHAWULA: What do you mean?





Uqonde ukuthi thina siqamba amanga?



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair! What is the question? Are you asking me a question, Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes! Did you refer or talk about VBS? Did you point a finger to them?



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: In the time-honoured tradition of heckling, sir, I did say VBS. VBS is particularly pertinent in this debate because the hon member here is talking about responsible and clean service while VBS was a blot on a particular municipality that he was in charge of.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): In the least ... Thank you very much, Mr Cachalia. In the list that I have here, hon member, ... [Interjections.] Let me finish first, hon Chabangu. In



the list that I have here, hon member Cachalia, I have hon B M Maneli; I do not have hon member VBS. What you did was that you pointed a finger at him and called him VBS. That is unparliamentary. No name to impugn the dignity of any member should be allowed in the House.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Sir, if you allow me: I did not impugn the dignity ... [Interjections.] May I explain: I ... [Interjections.] Sir!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did not allow you, and I would now allow a dialogue between us. I did not allow you, Mr Cachalia. I would humbly request you to withdraw!



Mr M S MALATSI: House Chair, point of order!



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair, I respectfully submit to you that what I said was in no way unparliamentarily. What I said in reference to VBS is a plain fact that is in the public domain and I raise it in these hallowed portals. Thank you.



Mr M S MALATSI: Chair, on a point of order!



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: And I did not mention his name, sir. Thank you!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I am quoting Rule 82, “No name should impugn the dignity of any member”. If you make an allegation of that nature, hon Cachalia, you should do that by way of a substantive motion in a separate process from this one. Otherwise, I would humbly request you to withdraw what you have said.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair, as I did not mention the hon member’s name, and I merely referred to VBS, which I said is pertinent in this discussion, I am not prepared to withdraw.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Then I am also making you aware, hon Cachalia, that by pointing a finger to him was a gesture that is not acceptable. I will again request you to withdraw.



Mr M S MALATSI: House Chair!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I did not recognise you; I am addressing hon Cachalia.



Mr M S MALATSI: But, I am rising on a point of order, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I am still addressing him. I will come to you.






Mr G K Y CACHALIA: A gesture which says let VBS continue refers ... [Interjections.] ... in context to the content of the discussion which we were having here and the debate we are engaging in. I did not refer – I repeat – I did not refer to the member by name; nor did I point to him and say that he was VBS. I referred to VBS because it is pertinent and his activities in that regard are complicit. That’s all I have said, sir, and I stand by that. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Cachalia, I am requesting you to withdraw what you have said about the member and if you do not find it possible, I would humbly request you to leave the House.



Mr M S MALATSI: House Chair! House Chair, you are being unfair to our member here.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Malatsi, I respectfully ask you to sit down. I am busy with a Ruling, sir.



Mr M S MALATSI: But, you are on the wrong path, Chair. You are on the wrong path.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will give you a chance.



Mr M S MALATSI: When? When my member is out of the House?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): When I am through! When I am through with this Ruling, I will give you a chance, hon Malatsi. Hon member, Cachalia, I have made a humble plea to you: Please leave the House so that we can continue.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair, we may continue in my presence because I have done nothing wrong.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Cachalia, I have repeatedly requested you to leave the House. You will leave me with no option ... [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! Shall we continue, hon Maneli?



Mr B M MANELI: The Global Challenges Research Fund, GCRF, and the developmental programmes are responses to the plight of the unemployed graduates and youth within the public and private sectors. Graduates and youth are already struggling in entering the labour market and should ... [Interjection.]



Ms M S KHAWULA: Hello! Point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Maneli, there is a point of order!





Ms M S KHAWULA: Bengithi, Mhlonishwa, lapho ubumtshelile ukuthi makaxolise ukuthi akambizanga ngokuthi uyilungu elihloniphekile, kuyimanje ngoba laba abamhlophe nilokhu nibabelese ngokuthi mabaxolise, lona wena oyilungu likaKhongolose anifuni yena ukuba ahoxise. Cha, musani okwenza sengathi lana kusebholeni, okuya ngokuthi iliphi iqembu ohambisana nalo. Okwesibili okumele kwenzeke, uma uzoba ngusihlalo ngicabanga ukuthi kumele kube nokuqeqesheka okumele kwenzeke ukuthi yini uyini umsebenzi wakho, hayi kuthi ube njengomuntu ozobheka abantu. Akaxolise ukuze sidlule kuleli phuzu.

Umhlonishwa uMadlingozi nina nimthatha kancane kuleli Phalamende, uvotelwe njengoba elana, unabantu abamele njengoba elana nje, musani



ukumthatha noma ikanjani. Sihlalo, ngicela wenze ubulungiswa.umhlonishwa laphaya ushilo wathi yinto elula nje okumele ayenze okuwukuxolisa nje. Akuzukungcola ngokwenza njalo, angazi nimthembeni lomuntu wenu.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela):Order! Hon member, ...





Besengishilo ekuqaleni ... [Interjections.] Besengishilo ukuthi uma ngabe isinqumo engisithathayo lapha asikugculisi, kukhona imigomo ongayilandela njengelungu, uma ngabe ubona iphutha kulento engiyikhulumile lapha, kunendlela okumele uyilandele. Kodwa okwamanje isinqumo ukuthi akaqhubeke, uma ngabe kukhona iphutha elingavela singabuyela emuva sithi ngelanga elithile kwathathwa isinqumo esinje. Uma ngabe sasingalunganga leso sinqumo, kuzoshiwo ukuthi cha leso sinqumo sasingafanele ngakho ke kuhoxiswe, kuqhutshekwe nomsebenzi, okwamanje isinqumo sithathiwe.



Mr M M CHABANGU: Point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Why are you rising, hon member?





Ntate Ntombela, ke batla ho bua le wena ka setho. O a dumela hore leloko le hlomphehileng le entse phoso fela o batla ho mmuella hore a tswele pele.





It is wrong and unacceptable!





O tshwanetse a re: Ke kopa tshwarelo.





There is nothing wrong; ...





A ke ke a tswa madi ha a ka re: Ke kopa tshwarelo - re tswele pele. Ho seng jwalo, re tlo ruta maloko ana a hlomphehileng a fihlang hore ba etse tjena.





A Rule is a Rule; it can’t be changed. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much! It is in that context, hon member, that I made a Ruling. Once I have made a Ruling, it is a Ruling that is binding according to the Rules that you have made. You made those Rules; you agreed to those Rules; and you must conform to those Rules that you have agreed to as a House and different parties. If you are not happy with the decision that I have taken, you have all the right to take it to the Rules Committee. There is absolutely nothing that I take off!



Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Chairperson.





Sengifuna ukukuhlonipha: Ungumnumzana, unguNtombela, ngiyakuhlonipha kodwa into oyenzayo angazi noma wena ubusekugcineni kuhla lwamalunga eza ePhalamende, umhlonishwa wakuthatha wazokufaka lapha ePhalamende wafika wakukhetha ukuthi ube usihlalo manje usaba into elula nje, ungenile manje uyilungu eligcwele njengathi sonke, angeke uxoshwe.

Kodwa ngikuhlonipha kangaka Ntombela yini lento oyenzayo, Sihlalo musa ukuchema. ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I would humbly request you to refrain from doing what you are doing. It cannot be right. I humbly request you ...





Ngiyacela kuwena maKhawula, ...





... can you hold it there, hon member? I humbly request you hon members to allow this process to continue and make the necessary presentations to the wrong decision if you think my decision was wrong.



Ms M S KHAWULA: Thank you very much, hon Ntombela. From now, ...





Uzoba uNtombela. Ngizozama ukungena lapha kuGoogle, ngithole igama lakho, ngizokubiza ngegama lakho, bese ungitshela ukuthi ngoba nifike nisinike imithetho uma sesithi siyayilandela le mithetho seniyishintshile ngoba ninalomkhuba wokubona abanye sengathi bangcono kunabanye lana. Okokuqala kumele wazi ukuthi uRingo naye uwumnumzane, unonkosikazi nezingane unesithunzi, okumele nisihloniphe, futhi unewadi alimele ningamthathi kancane. Ukuthi nimazi ewumculi, ngoba wonke umuntu unalokhu nalokhu, ngoba awulazi ikusasa lomuntu, ngoba mhlampe njengoba nawe uhleli lapho phansi kusasa uzobe ungasahleli kuleso Sihlalo. Musa ukuzenza sengathi



uNkulunkulu kusolokhu kukhona abantu abangahlonishwa. Kusukela manje sizonibiza ngamagama ...





Thank you very much!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can I also draw your attention to the fact that when you make a point of order, make your point of order and substantiate your point of order. Do not make a speech. I humbly request you to observe your own Rules.

Secondly, hon members, be careful of your interjections. Your interjections should not disturb the House. Can you continue, hon Maneli?



Mr B M MANELI:           Thank you hon Chair, maybe to assist the meeting to proceed, indeed I have not referred to the hon member ...



THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D NTOMBELA): Hon member, do not touch on that issue, go on with your speech.



Mr B M MANELI: ... but if that is offensive, I have accepted Chair in order to proceed. As I said Chair, the GCRF and developmental programmes are responses to the plight of the unemployed graduates



and youth within the public and private sector. The graduates and the youth are already struggling in entering the labour market.

Therefore, as I said, they should not find it harder to start a career in public service, hence this programme of GNRSF and other internship programmes.



As I said, this is also especially to assist young people who must also get experiential training. This process will add value by minimising the already over- burdened paper work administration and service offering by introducing Technology Serve Youth, therefore co-ordinating and aligning any fragmented reporting and communication in dealing with poor service delivery.



I want to highlight hon House Chair that, indeed as we support this budget, we are confident that, as it has been shown by the National School of Governance, having trained facilitators, 52 of them who rolled out a programme to 2880 unemployed youth. This budget will help us to take it to another level of 5000 rural youth in the next two years. We think that is what the ANC is doing and not what it says it would do and not do.



The National School of Governance has also signed a memorandum of understanding as already stated, with the SA local Government



Association in August 2016. In our view this provides an opportunity for us to look at indeed realising a single public service, which would ensure that the mobility within the state is finally realised. In that score, we will be able to share skills from the bottom to the top and form the top to the bottom, in terms of that upward and downward mobility.



Hon Chair, we need skilled and committed human capital to arrive at this vision. Some are professionals and some are not. However, the goal is common, to provide service that is impartial, equitable and without bias, irrespective of religion, colour and creed. Indeed, you would have seen in Johannesburg after the 2016 Local Government Elections that, Soweto is not the shining example we have here before the 2016 elections because ...





Umtshato ungenile waqhawuka waphinda waqala, uyancoma nannamhla ...





... when our people are suffering.



We therefore call for government institutions to reinforce and collaborate widely and across sectors to collectively engage in



innovation, share and exchange knowledge and experiences to make a difference in the lives of our people. The use of online learning encourages self-placed learning. The piloted and implemented open online courses by the National School of Governance has showed much success. It resulted in an intake of more then 25 000 learners accessing learning opportunities throughout this platform. As the ANC we believe that, innovation serves as a catalyst in ensuring effective state machinery.



Hon Chair, allow me to indicate that, whilst there maybe a situation where others look at us as though we are not looking at issues of competent people. It is the resolution of the ANC that we actually look at meritocracy so that people are brought on the basis of merit and the competencies that they have. I want to state that it is also opportunistic that you get to a portfolio committee. You are presented with a programme that already says that the Public Service Commission is indeed working with the Department of DPME and the DPSA to ensure that a Bill does come forward that looks t how heads of departments and DGs would be appointed. You come here, pledgirise it as though it will a member’s Bill that will be presented by the DA/day. Therefore it would not be an issue.



Hon Chair, allow me to indicate that from where we are, all these initiatives will naturally need sustained funding as already accepted by all of us. Costs will add up with expression of interest and increasing targets. Furthermore, the success hon Chair would need us to build a social compact that will put all stakeholders especially labour on a mode of patriotism at all spheres of government. Those working relations as the Minister referred to, we that as the ANC it is important that we ensure that they last but not only at this level but also at the local level, so that when we talk about this experience of a citizen in a public service point, we should be confident that, even if we are in the Western Cape, if it is a single public service and there is only one government at a national level that seeks to address challenges faced by people that indeed it will not take longer to get to townships when it is easy to get service on the other side of town.



We are saying this because as I outlined before, we have been told of a vision that the DA has and that the ANC still keeps to an old vision. For as long as blacks in general, Africans in particular still feel excluded in this space, we will continue to force integration of service, so that our can finally enjoy the fruits of our freedom.



Hon Chair, we are also in the Mandela month, indeed public service is at the centre of delivering service. In celebrating the 18 July which will also be done internationally, it presents an opportunity not only for the political leadership, but for all servants in the public service to also contribute in their different ways to render service on the day as it is never considered to be necessarily a public holiday, but a day to serve.



Allow me to conclude by coming back to this point. Indeed we support that there must be actions that get taken and that is why we appreciate cases that get resolved within reasonable time whenever these are picked up. In the same vein, when there are allegations that it always important to allow investigations to take the course and allow those to finish so that we do not pre-judge investigations. I want to applaud the ANC that in the mist of an election, it would have not reverted back to blocking investigations but allowed the investigations to go on. We understood that allowing that had risks, but we took the risk because we do not put the party first. In our tradition, our policies and everything else as Tambo would have said in the 48th conference, “They have always been informed by people”. Even at the time believed that we were correct, but if they did not resonate with the people, we would change them in order to resonate with the people. When the people of the country



cried about corruption we said, the commission will proceed irrespective of the elections.



We also knew that for us to get to the era of hope and renewal it is when we are prisoners of our conviction that we are dealing decisively with corruption whenever there is evidence there is corruption. I am using this deliberately because it very easy to smear the names of people and would not want to own up and put motions that can then be tested and evidence be presented. I submit hon Chair. I thank you. [Applause]





close the debate, I must first acknowledge and appreciate all the participants and their contributions. They are indeed valuable and we appreciate. Secondly, let me assure the chairperson of the portfolio committee and the committee as a whole that we noted your report and the issues that you raised. We will be taking them further and we will work with you, hon. We think they are not as difficult; issues of discipline, disciplinary cases, the ministerial handbook, acting appointments and ensuring opportunities for young people in terms of jobs. Thirdly, reconfiguration yes, we are pushing forward and by December we are hoping that the whole process will be complete. However, reconfiguration does not mean



retrenchments in anyway, it is not a tool to retrench, but where there may be difficulties of accommodating the extra public servants we will make an attempt find mechanisms to deal with such situations if they arise. Nevertheless, reconfiguration shouldn’t be confused with retrenchments.



We did get different views on the cost of public administration. It is an ongoing work and we are committed to ensuring that the state doesn’t sink as a result of the cost of public administration. I listened quite carefully as one of the members was talking here and I took one point that I think is very important and that will make us live that says, in the public service there are good people and there are good public servants and I fully agree with that, not just in this House but because out there it is borne out by facts. There are good public servants. Those public servants that are good, are the ones that we need to protect, support and to make sure that they consolidate their presence wherever they are. However, wherever we come across those that are not good, whether they are in Tshwane, Johannesburg, Cape Town, etc, we will have to follow them and deal with them accordingly.



Lastly, we want to express our appreciation to all our guests to respect who respected us by coming here. We note that some of them



have left, particularly, the students – prospective employees of the Department of Public Service and Administration or just the public service as a whole. we hope that we shared with them where we needed to share with them. I want to submit Chair, that you had a difficult session but thank you very much for everything. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon Minister and hon members, after a very careful consideration of the concerns that members have raised with regard to the issue hon Ringo Madlingozi, we will go back and look at the context of the whole thing and even visit the Hansard so that in the next plenary a ruling is made.

Thank you very much, the House is adjourned.



The mini-plenary session rose at 16:33.




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