Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 02 Sep 2010


No summary available.










The House met at 14:03.


The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.






Ms B N DAMBUZA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the House debates the consequences of the rising costs of building materials and how this phenomenon impacts on the broader transformation agenda, especially on the acceleration of comprehensive and sustainable human settlements delivery.


I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr S MOKGALAPA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


 That the House -


(1)        debates the role of Parliament in the processing and ratification of international treaties; and


(2)        determines whether our role is being effectively implemented.


Thank you. [Applause.]


Ms H F MATLANYANE: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:


That the House debates building an egalitarian traditional courts system that is aligned with the Constitution.


Thank you.


Dr S M VAN DYK: Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis gaan voorstel:


Dat hierdie Huis debat voer oor die volgehoue agteruitgang van Transnet se sylyn-netwerk en die uitwerking op die landelike ekonomie.

Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)


[Dr S M VAN DYK: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:


That the House debates the sustained deterioration of Transnet’s siding network and its impact on the rural economy.


Thank you.]


Mrs N M TWALA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:


That the House debates the mechanisms which are in place for the acceleration of the government’s commitment to land restitution and distribution within the agreed framework.


Thank you.


Ms F E KHUMALO: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:


That the House debates plans to strengthen and salvage state-owned enterprises so that they respond to our defined public mandate and act in terms of our overarching industrial policy and economic transformation objectives.

I thank you. [Applause.]




(Draft Resolution)


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I move without notice:


   That the House —


(1) notes that Crime Line was presented with three top international media awards at the annual Crime Stoppers International conference in Halifax, Canada, where over 300 delegates from 20 countries attended the conference, with South Africa competing against countries like the United States of America, the United Kingdom, India, Australia, the Netherlands and others; and


(2) congratulates Crime Line for receiving the awards “for effectively promoting and the powerful messaging” of the anonymous tip-off service as they scooped the media awards in the print, radio and television categories for communities of over five million people.


Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)


Mrs H S MSWELI: Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the IFP, I move without notice:


 That the House —


(1) notes that the National Research Foundation yesterday honoured palaeoanthropologist Phillip Tobias with a lifetime achievement award;


(2) further notes that Prof Tobias is hailed by scientists around the world as a leading authority on the evolution of humankind; and


   (3)     congratulates him on this great achievement.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr G P D MACKENZIE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

 That the House —


   (1)     notes that —


(a) South Africa will be hosting the 2010 African Women’s Football Championship;


(b) “The Girls”, Banyana Banyana, will be representing our nation in this prestigious event; and


(c) South Africa as a nation and our Constitution stand for gender equality and that this tournament may well be the platform that propels women’s football, or soccer, forward in South Africa;


(2) acknowledges the role that the hosting of this event will play in developing our future woman football stars; and


(3) wishes the national team all the best in the upcoming tournament.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)

Mr G P D MACKENZIE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House —


(1) notes that the South African team to the Youth Olympic Games has represented their country with dignity and that South Africa can be proud of their achievements;


(2) further notes that the team brought back a total of nine medals that act as a reflection of their achievements;


(3) acknowledges the contribution that such an event plays in developing our future sports stars and ambassadors; and


(4) congratulates the team and their various coaches on their incredible performances and wishes them all the best with their future endeavours.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:


That the House —


(1) welcomes the opening of Sinethemba Child and Youth Care Centre in Newcastle, northern KwaZulu-Natal, on Tuesday 31 August 2010;


(2) notes that the centre, which is the first of its kind in South Africa, is designed to cater for 39 awaiting-trial male juveniles between the ages of 10 and 18;


(3) further notes that the purpose of the centre is to avoid the incarceration of youths who are awaiting trial with hardened criminals; and


(4) encourages the building of these institutions in all provinces to assist in the process of rehabilitation of young juveniles.


Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party on the Order Paper, as follows:


That the House, notwithstanding the resolution it adopted on 11

May 2010, resolves to ?


(1)        extend the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery under the Theme: “Working together to ensure the delivery of quality service to communities” has to report, to 10 September 2010; and


(2)        condone the work the committee has done since 30 July 2010.


Agreed to.




(Member’s Statement)


Mrs T E KENYE (ANC): Hon Speaker, the ANC welcomes the announcement by the Minister of Health, Dr Aaron Motsoaledi, that the national Department of Health will set up a hotline for patients requiring chronic medication while the public sector strike continues. The call centre has been established by the Department of Health to provide assistance to patients who are on chronic medication and are encountering difficulties in accessing their treatment during the ongoing Public Service strike. The Call centre agents will advise and direct callers to where they can access their treatment.


We urge members of the public to use this facility to access their medication while the strike continues. The call centre will operate from 07:00 in the morning to 17:00 in the afternoon daily. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (DA): Hon Speaker, the DA is fundamentally opposed to President Jacob Zuma’s decision not to relaunch the investigation into the Iraq oil-for-food scandal and to keep the full findings of the initial investigation into this matter concealed from the public. Despite regular protestations that his government is tough on corruption, the President’s handling of this matter is indicative of the ANC’s attitude towards executive misconduct and best democratic practice.


It has been four years since the original Oilgate investigation. The Donen commission was established, and yet two successive ANC administrations have failed to take any decisive action against a single individual. This is a matter of public importance. South Africans have the right to know the truth. The alleged involvement of top ANC officials, including the President, means that the full details of yet another instance of power abuse and gross misconduct by the ANC government will, in all likelihood, be hidden indefinitely from public scrutiny.


The DA wishes to reiterate its call for the full report of the Donen commission to be made public and for a new commission of investigation, with the power of subpoena, to be launched into this scandal. The decision not to further investigate the oil-for-food debacle has been made in the interests of the ANC and not in the interests of the public. The DA will use every available mechanism to oppose it. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr M E GEORGE (Cope): Mr Speaker, South Africa is now in the grip of a strike that has gone on for 15 days. The issue here is not only money and benefits, but also very much South Africa becoming the predatory state that it has now degenerated into. Educators, health workers and others have witnessed conspicuous consumption, profligate expenditure and lavish lifestyles in the upper echelons of the government inside this predatory state. This is not without reason. They are unwilling to settle for adjustments that, by contrast, are insignificant. If the envelope is broken, it should be broken for everybody.


The very ANC which undertook to flatten the remuneration gap has made it blatantly steeper. Self-enrichment of the political elite, their families and their offspring has gone beyond the tolerance limit. There is an open revolt now, not least within the structures that were key to electing this government. The strike is therefore being dragged out because political, ethical and economic issues have all been scrambled.


The education of our children is now thrown into total jeopardy. They may have had the least amount of schooling in any year at any time. The matric exams are now distinctly in danger of not being written.


This government is bringing the country to the brink of chaos. The conduct of the President himself is also pushing the envelope too far. Even though he has numerous wives ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Time expired.]



(Member’s Statement)


Ms D E DLAKUDE (ANC): Hon Speaker, on 23 July 2010, while on their oversight visit to the Free State, the Portfolio Committee on Human Settlements visited Diyatalawa, a concentration camp converted into an agrivillage. Diyatalawa means “falling apples”, because this used be an apple farm. The 36 families living in this area were farm labourers.


This is one of the best agrivillages in the country. Thank you to the Department of Human Settlements, in partnership with the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, for ensuring that land is provided to build homes for our people and for promoting local economic development by providing our people with chicken barns, 2000 chickens and 240 cattle. One hundred and twenty dairy cattle will be provided. Seven 75m² three- and four-bedroomed houses with sanitation were completed. The rest of the houses were still under construction and were be completed by the end of August.


The construction of a creche and primary and secondary schools is under way, and the road leading to this village is under construction. Both departments are working together tirelessly to ensure that the dignity of our people is restored by advancing and promoting the rural housing programme and comprehensive rural development, and ensuring that our people share in the wealth of the land they work on. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]


(Member’s Statement)


Mr J H VAN DER MERWE (IFP): Mr Speaker, the IFP welcomes the new road safety campaign in the Western Cape to name and shame convicted drunk drivers. This campaign will see information on every conviction for drunk driving from every magistrate’s court in the province being gathered and released to the media. The transport department then aims to supply the media with the names, addresses, dates, places of conviction and photographs of those convicted.


The same plan of action was implemented in KwaZulu-Natal with great success. These steps will hopefully curb drunken driving as over 2 000 citizens of the Western Cape have been convicted for driving under the influence of liquor this year alone.


The IFP believes that this campaign will have a major positive effect on road safety. We are therefore of the opinion that this programme should be made a national programme as a matter of urgency. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mme S R TSEBE (ANC): Ke a leboga Semesegolo, ditlamo di le tharo tsa megala ya letheka di neelane ka megala ya letheka e ka nna 80 000. Dikabelo tseno ke bontlhabongwe jwa maitlamo a ditlamo tseno di a dirileng fa di ne di abelwa tetla ya go dirisa mafaratlhatlha a bokgoni ba boraro ba bogokaganyi ... (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)


[Ms S R TSEBE (ANC): Thank you, Chief Whip. Three cellphone companies donated about 80 000 cellphones as part of the commitment they made when they received permission to use ...]


... a third generation network licence.


Tona ya Ditlhaeletsano e abile megala eno go thusa gore sepodisi sa Aforika Borwa se lwantshe bosenyi le go thusa Lefapha la Boitekanelo go gokaganya badiri le baithuti ba ba gasagasaneng mo nageng kwa dikgaolong tse di kgakala.


ANC e dumela gore tlhaeletsano kana bogokaganyi bo ka kgontsha puso go fitlhisa ditirelo setšhaba go Maaforika Borwa, e bile e itumelela go dirisiwa ka botlalo ga bokgoni ba bogokaganyi mo go fitlheleleng maitlhomo a puso. ANC e akgola le bogatlhamela masisi ba Tona ya Ditlhaeletsano, Mogenerala Siphiwe Nyanda, mo go fitlhiseng ditirelo go Maaforika Borwa ka bophara. Ka go rialo, go bontsha gore:


Mmogo re ka dira go le gontsi.

Ke a leboga. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)


[The Minister of Communications donated these phones to assist the SA Police to combat crime and the Department of Health to connect employees and students in remote regions across the country.


The ANC believes that communication can enable government to bring social services to South Africans and is pleased that these connections have been utilised to achieve the intention of government. The ANC applauds the courage of the Minister of Communications, Gen Siphiwe Nyanda, in bringing services to South Africans in general. In saying that, we really confirm that: Together, we can do more. Thank you. [Applause.]]




(Member’s Statement)


Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Hon Speaker, the ACDP commends the Minister of Basic Education and her department on their efforts to minimise any damage as a result of the strikes. We would like to encourage people to support schools during this period of disrupted education and are pleased to note that there have already been more than 2 300 responses from individuals and organisations to the Let’s Support the Class of 2010 campaign nationally.


Experts in the subjects offered for matric are still needed, and parents and community volunteers are required to keep younger learners in active learning. The positive influnce of community and parent involvement at schools is hugely beneficial at any time, and if nothing else, this crisis has afforded an opportunity for this example to be modelled. Statistics indicate that significantly higher pass rates in former model C schools are directly linked to better resources and facilities due to parental involvement.


The safety of our children is, of course, paramount, and the ACDP supports the department’s commitment to screening volunteers and doing everything possible to protect learners from exposure to people who pose any danger or risk to their wellbeing. We remind volunteers that these checks are important, and we urge volunteers to assist the department in this regard.


The ACDP regards the disruption of learners’ studies as a crisis which could significantly impact on the ability of all 2010 learners to fulfil their potential as leaders of tomorrow. We call on unions to urgently consider new and more helpful ways of dealing with grievances and wage demands and not to hold learners hostage in this manner. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)

Ms H N MAKHUBA (IFP): Hon Speaker, last week 10 schoolchildren were killed when a taxi collided with a train after the driver allegedly overtook nine vehicles waiting at the half-boom railway gates at the Blackheath level crossing in Cape Town. The taxi driver is currently facing 10 counts of culpable homicide and was scheduled to appear at the Blue Downs Magistrate’s Court yesterday.


He arrived at the court waving and smiling at journalists while shouting and greeting those who were gathered outside the Blue Downs Magistrate’s Court ahead of his scheduled appearance as if he had just committed a heroic act.


The deaths of these 10 children, who range from 7 to 16 years of age, have sparked outrage among families, residents and politicians. The IFP believes far too many innocent people die at the hands of reckless drivers in South Africa, and the penalty given to the perpetrators is sometimes far too lenient. It’s about time that we, the lawmakers of this country, tighten legislation to deal with such individuals and let justice be served to deal with the criminal behaviour that many other lawless taxi drivers display on a daily basis.


In addition, the IFP believes that the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa has to reconsider its safety measures at its level crossings, particularly those that are half-boomed, and work hand in hand with law enforcement to prevent these kinds of accidents from happening in the future. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr G J SELAU (ANC): Speaker, President Zuma’s visit to China is part of the ANC government’s aim of consolidating south-south relations and strengthening political, economic and trade relations with the People’s Republic of China. The two countries signed the Beijing Declaration. The declaration outlined 38 bilateral co-operation agreements ranging from political dialogues, trade, investment, mineral exploration and agriculture to joint efforts in the global arena such as in the United Nations and the Forum on China-Africa Co-operation.


The key element of this expanded partnership is the partnership for growth and development, focusing on key issues such as beneficiation and value addition to resources, infrastructure, market access and trade with regard to the SADC region and Africa as a whole. This comprehensive strategic partnership declaration will guide South Africa’s overall interaction with China over the next 10 to 15 years. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mrs S P KOPANE (DA): Hon Speaker, the ANC government’s continual failure to fulfil its constitutional obligation to children and the elderly has resulted in both the national department and the Free State department of social development being taken to court by the NGO sector to force the government to honour its obligations to them.


Recent court findings highlighted the fact that skewed funding resulted in the Free State department allocating between R5 000 and R6 750 per month per child for a state-run children’s home while it paid only R2 000 per month for homes run by nonprofit organisations, NPOs. The judgment by the court orders the department to revise its funding policy within four months and that the policy must have a fair, equitable and transparent method of determining how much should be paid to NPOs.


It is an indictment on the department that, due to a lack of capacity and leadership within the department, the court will supervise the implementation of the judgment. It is a very sad day when organisations that are at the coalface of protecting the most vulnerable in our society are forced to go to court to get the government to do its job. This does highlight, however, the hypocritical attitude that the ANC government has towards children’s rights in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mrs J D KILIAN (Cope): Speaker, Cope is very concerned that the SABC is again suffering as a result of the clamour for control of financial resources and the airwaves by feuding factions in the ANC alliance. Elements in the executive management are flouting the rules and regulations to have cronies appointed to take control of news and current affairs in the run-up to the local government elections.


It is indefensible that within a mere four years a mink and manure elite has been established at the SABC, whilst middle management and workers are keeping programmes on the air. This is substantiated with hard facts and figures, for example a 29% increase in the head count at the SABC, but a 128% increase in the wage bill. How do we explain to the poor that the head of news earns a bigger salary than President Zuma?


Cope condemns the ANC’s political meddling, which undermines the efforts of the SABC board to restore sound governance systems and financial propriety to the public broadcaster. The SABC belongs to all South Africans, not to the ANC! South Africans pay licence fees, and their taxes have bailed out a bankrupt SABC. Cope insists that the board makes a presentation to the portfolio committee within the next 10 days, in full view of the public and the media.


The Minister cannot resolve the crisis. He is conflicted as a result of his friendship with the group chief executive officer, the board chairperson and the head of news and his close alliance with the MK veterans. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Time expired.][Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Ms P MADUNA (ANC): Hon Speaker, a South African delegation led by the Deputy Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, Andries Nel, participated in the World Youth Conference in Mexico hosted by the Mexican government in collaboration with the UN Population Fund, UN Development Fund for Women, UN Development Programme, UN Educational, Scienctific and Cultural Organisation and the UN programme on youth.


The conference, which got under way on Monday, 23 August 2010, aims to put youth development on the world agenda and identify priority actions for 2015 on youth issues to be included in the international agenda for development beyond the Millennium Development Goals. Delegates were expected to consider issues such as poverty, education, health, employment, technology, culture, gender equalty and climate change, all of which are considered key to youth development. The ANC views these challenges facing the youth as common to most countries, continents and the world. Siyabulela. [Thank you.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr D C ROSS (DA): Hon Speaker, the DA welcomes the announcement of a special committee to investigate and monitor the electricity crisis in the Free State. The Free State Premier, Ace Magashule, has realised the urgent nature of this crisis that many municipalities in the Free State are facing. Recently most municipalities received notices of disconnection from Eskom due to massive outstanding debts owing to Eskom. About 90% of the debt owed to Eskom by municipalities comes from the Free State municipalities.


The DA has requested the premier and the special committee to invoke section 27 of the Electricity Regulation Amendment Act of 2007, which states that each municipality must perform its duty by preparing plans and budgets and then report to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, the National Treasury, the Regulator and the consumers of electricity. At the core of the problem is the fact that government must ensure the implementation of Treasury regulations.


The provision of electricity is a core function of municipalities. Yet, so many ANC municipalities fail to do this effectively. Voters in the Free State in next year’s local government elections will clearly show their dissatisfaction with the ANC, I presume. If the governing party of a municipality cannot even get the most basic financial management and budgeting right, then it should not be in government. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mrs M T KUBAYI (ANC): Speaker, the ANC believes that the world in which we live is highly dependent on science and technology to improve the social and economic lives of South Africans, hence the opening of a science centre at the University of North West Mafikeng Campus on Thursday, 30 August 2010, is crucial in strengthening grass-roots science awareness campaigns.


The science centre will benefit learners, students and the public in Mafikeng and adjacent areas. It will play an important role in helping people gain an understanding of how human activity is warming the climate, what impact that will have on food and water security and, crucially, what needs to be done to slow or reverse the warming trend.


Our lives are immeasurably improved by science and engineering. The opening of the science centre marks an important milestone in the community engagement programme of the North West University. The ANC supports this initiative and believes that the task of taking science to all corners of the country is a huge one that no single individual or organisation can carry out alone. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Prof L B G NDABANDABA (ANC): Hon Speaker, I rise to state that the ANC congratulates Ms Muthambi, a member of this hon House, on joining the Deputy President at the University of Venda as a member of the university council. [Applause.]


Ms Muthambi, only 36 years of age, has been appointed a member of the council of the University of Venda with effect from 12 July 2010. The ANC acknowledges that her achievement is an inspiration to the young people of this country, as well as women of this country, and the ANC as an organisation. Ms Muthambi is the first and youngest external member to serve in such a high decision-making body of the university. The ANC therefore wishes her success in her new appointment. Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. [Thank you, Speaker.]





(Minister’s Response)


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Speaker, there were two matters raised by two hon members from the IFP relating to transport and safety on our roads. The hon Koos van der Merwe correctly commended the Western Cape government for introducing a naming and shaming programme for those found guilty of drunk driving or driving under the influence of one form of substance or another.


The hon Van der Merwe correctly said that this was also piloted elsewhere. I am aware that at uMsunduzi Municipality a similar programme has been conducted with great success. This underlines the fact that in order to succeed these programmes also require the co-operation of the media to actually publish the names of people guilty of this.


The importance of really focusing on this issue and trying to correct behaviour on our roads is underlined by the second matter that the second member from the IFP raised about the terrible tragedy at the Blackheath level crossing. I don’t know if the hon member is aware that that evening — the accident happened in the morning at about 7 o’ clock — there was a small group of people gathered at the level crossing: family, friends, police and so forth. And what happened? Another minibus driver did exactly the same thing. He cut across a whole queue of cars waiting at the level crossing and crossed over. Fortunately, in this case there was no accident and no smash. But it just underlines how absolutely reckless and senseless some people can be. It’s not just minibus drivers; it’s all drivers across the board who are really not taking things seriously.


The hon member suggested that we need to change the law. I don’t think that the law is at fault. I think the law is there. But too often, for instance, in magistrates’ courts and so on, these things are treated as if they are accidents. They are not. These are smashes caused by culpable actions and so forth. So, I think we need to toughen up the way we treat these matters. I agree that we need to look at the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and the Rail Safety Regulator to make sure that level crossings are as safe as possible. However, in many cases it’s not the infrastructure or the booms. They were there in this case; it’s driver behaviour. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]




(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Speaker, I just want to respond to the very positive statement by the hon Selau. The visit to China, which took place under the leadership of the President, was indeed a very important strategic visit.


Among other things, the partnership agreement that he mentioned was in fact a comprehensive strategic partnership agreement which substantially elevated the level of the bilateral relationship which we have with the People’s Republic of China. There is a series of structures which begin with summit meetings periodically, meetings at the level of Deputy Presidents and annual meetings by Ministers. Indeed it does mean that we have a relationship with China which China has with a few other countries.


Some of the elements of a comprehensive strategic partnership were also very important. Among other things is the commitment by the government of China to encourage their enterprises to purchase more value-added products from South Africa and co-operate in adding value and beneficiating mineral products, as well as co-operate in manufacturing inputs for infrastructure and green industry programmes.


I think it’s very clear that China chose to have a relationship with us because they see us as a country with significant potential, an important power in our own right as a middle-income emerging economy and also as a part of the African continent. I can’t help but conclude that the way China sees us is in very sharp contrast with the way the hon Mluleki George sees us. I just want to say to him that it’s actually not the country that’s gone to the dogs, it’s your party. I thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]




(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Speaker, the issue of partnership with different partners in the community is a very fundamental pillar of government, particularly in the fight against crime.


We further add our voice in congratulating Crime Line, which has formed a very formidable partnership with the police. We say that together, we can do more. Thank you very much.




(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Speaker, firstly, I believe it’s important for the House to note that it is the government that has improved its offer to public servants and not public servants who have come back to government with something new. Therefore, the hon Mluleki George is entirely wrong in his assessment that this government has been unable to move.


Secondly, the executive enjoys exactly the same privileges that the hon Mluleki George so wonderfully enjoyed when he previously served in it. [Applause.]


There has been no change whatsoever. There is no open revolt in the ANC. It is stronger than ever and will go on to be far, far stronger that the party of which the hon Mluleki is currently a member. I think if I were him, I would not be talking about political issues being scrambled given the scrambling, that currently characterises the party of which he is a member. [Applause.]




(Consideration of Report)


There was no debate.




That the report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.




(Second Reading debate)


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Speaker, in a democratic South Africa, we cannot but — at least historically — recognise the Black Authorities Act, No 68 of 1951, as a defining piece of legislation in the relationship between the state and citizens. Internal colonialism such as apartheid left the democratic government with many legacies, and seemingly intractable governance issues to contend with. These include a chaotic and contradicting power structure transmitted in racial hierarchies and tribally arranged local communities, giving birth to deformed racial and tribal identities in South Africa.


While directly the apartheid state denied basic rights to the black majority on racial grounds, in an authoritarian mode it introduced a well-tested colonial project of indirect rule by instituting a customary mode of rule, with state-appointed native authorities amongst Africans thus redefining customs. This state incursion into traditions and cultures of various Africans in South Africa distorted and damaged the established practices of those affected.

The institutional legacy of the Black Authorities Act is a colossal social experiment that a single legislative Act cannot wipe away. It is an ongoing project that the democratic state remains committed to. The institutional features of the Black Authorities Act bear themselves out in the configuration of a number of arrangements within postapartheid South Africa. Dislodging and dislocating the apartheid edifice of traditional institutions with all the accompanying distortions and disfigurements is a task that we have commenced with. We will continue with the systematic removal of all the legislative pillars of this system.


Even with the fragmentation and resistance evident in the public response to how this task is carried out or the pace of interventions in restoring the legitimacy of the social organisations of our communities, we take comfort in the unanimity of views that this repeal Bill is a step in the right direction


In calling upon the Parliament of the people to approve this repeal Bill, we commit to reforming the distortions created by the Black Authorities Act and similar measures as they continually foster tension between institutions and between institutions and people. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon Speaker, section 55 of the Constitution mandates Parliament to consider, pass, amend or reject any law before it. Today we debate the report on the Black Authorities Act Repeal Bill. As the name indicates, the Black Authorities Act was introduced to support the apartheid government’s policy of separate development. The repeal of the Act is in line with the democratic government’s agenda to repeal all statutes in the Statute Book that are redundant, obsolete or in conflict with constitutional imperatives.


The Black Authorities Act, No 68 of 1951, is one of those Acts that are old and obsolete, and it undermines the values of human rights and equality enshrined in our Constitution. Therefore, the Act is not relevant to the current situation.


Our Constitution indicates that all shall enjoy equal rights irrespective of race or colour. Furthermore, section 21(3) of the Constitution says that every citizen has the right to enter, to remain in and to reside anywhere in the Republic. The Black Authorities Act undermines all of that. The Act was enacted during the apartheid era to establish tribal, regional and territorial authorities to administer the affairs of black people only and not of all South African citizens. Its intention was to keep “kaffers op hulle plek” or black people in their place, and that place was in the homelands. South Africa is a unitary state. Racial and tribal divisions are no longer acceptable.


The Constitution requires that people’s dignity be protected and respected, but the Act was aimed at controlling, dehumanising, dividing and discriminating against black people in the former homelands instead of broadening constitutional values and human rights.


In a democratic dispensation, proper consultation with communities on matters that affect their lives is vital. Rural people, as citizens of this country, must be able to participate in the decision-making processes. The Black Authorities Act gives the government, chiefs and headmen the right to take decisions on behalf of rural people, which deprives them of the freedom of expression as enshrined in section 16 of the Constitution - the Bill of Rights. Public participation encourages people to be more responsible for their actions.


As the ANC, we resolved at the Polokwane conference that we need to strengthen the voices of rural South Africans, empower rural communities and build the momentum behind agrarian change and land reform by supporting the mobilisation of rural people, working together with progressive movements and organisations and building forums and structures through which rural people can articulate their demands and interests. This is in line with section 18 of the Constitution, which supports freedom of association and expression.


Rural development is the central pillar of our struggle against unemployment, poverty and inequality. High levels of rural poverty and equality inhibit the growth of our economy. Most rural people were dependent on subsistence farming to feed themselves and their families, but they are burdened with tax payments while they have no income. Section 6 of the Act gives the territorial authority the right to impose tax on black inhabitants. Through the Act, rural people have been required to pay taxes such as horse, tribal, poll and, development tax, as well as and other taxes to tribal authorities as well as government. This means that rural people were doubly taxed, which contradicts the Constitution because it restricts the power to levy taxes on national, provincial and local government.


South Africa’s brutal apartheid past was based on inequalities. Women in South Africa have a history of being disadvantaged which was built under the old laws. The patriarchal system was the order of the day. Women were made to depend on men economically. The status of women was reduced to that of children. Women were not allowed to chair meetings. Meetings were chaired by the commissioner or an adult male, which undermined the capacity of women and promoted the ideology of male superiority, while the right to equality is a basic right in the Constitution. Women were not allowed to speak for themselves, and their voices were not heard.


Furthermore, women were not allowed to own property. When a husband passed away, the eldest son or the brother-in-law was to take over. This contradicts section 25(1) of the Constitution, which protects the rights of every person to acquire and hold rights to property. The rights of the people are the same regardless of race, colour or sex.


With the new dispensation, women are speaking for themselves and are not represented by men as this undermines their rights. The rights of women are of equal importance to those of men. The repeal of the Black Authorities Act will eradicate gender discrimination and oppression, and it will ensure that all South Africans do indeed have equal access to opportunities and protection.


The ANC resolved in Polokwane that we need to ensure that the allocation of customary land is democratised in a manner that empowers rural women and supports the building of democratic community structures at village level that are capable of driving and co-ordinating local development processes.


Gender equality must be a critical ingredient, and an important outcome of all our programmes of rural development. Correcting the injustice of the past requires that women must increasingly become beneficiaries and decision-makers in respect of strategies to overcome poverty in rural areas.


The programme of rural development and land reform must integrate clear strategies that seek to empower the poor. This is especially the for those who derive all or part of their livelihood from productive land in line with the Freedom Charter’s call that “the land shall be shared among those who work it”. Critical beneficiaries of change must be rural women.


Democracy requires that citizens be continuously engaged in governance through interaction with those who make decisions. We are elected to make policies and laws on behalf of the people. We are therefore required to fulfil their mandate by ensuring continuous consultation and dialogue with citizens whom we represent.


The Constitution accords the public a role in parliamentary proceedings. As an activist parliamentary committee, we facilitated public involvement during the processing of this Bill. The public was invited to make written comments. Furthermore, public hearings were held whereby various stakeholders made comments on the Bill. We heard the voices of the public. The public supports the repeal of the Black Authorities Act.


Through the repeal of the Black Authorities Act, we have nothing to lose but everything to gain as there will be a transition from the old discriminatory Act to a new democratic, participatory social order whereby rural people will realise their constitutional rights. The Black Authorities Act has no space in this democratic dispensation as it has no respect for people’s equal rights and dignity. It cannot be part of our constitutional mandate. Therefore, it must be removed from the Statute Book.


The people of South Africa declared that South Africa belongs to all who live in it — black and white — and that no government can justify and claim authority unless it is based on the will of the people.


I agree with the hon Minister that we will continue to review all pieces of legislation which are on our Statute Book that continue to undermine the dignity of South Africans and conflict with the Constitution as it is the supreme law of the country. I therefore see no reason for this Act not to be repealed. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mrs A STEYN: Hon Speaker, the Black Authorities Act Repeal Bill correctly states that the Act was a legislative cornerstone of apartheid engineering, which sought to control communities of black people. It laid the foundation for the establishment of statutory tribal, regional and territorial authorities to administer the affairs of black people.


During apartheid millions of people were forcibly removed into separate tribes, each with their own homeland. Time and again Bantustan consolidation removals favoured compliant traditional leaders, who were then rewarded with large tracts of land, and punished those who resisted by putting them under the authority of the collaborators.


Albert Luthuli wrote in his book Let My People Go:


The modes of government proposed are a caricature. They are neither democratic nor African. The Act makes our chiefs, quite straightforwardly and simply, into puppets and agents of the big dictator. They are answerable to him only, never to their people.


The DA welcomes the repeal of this Bill. But it is concerned by the distorted legacy of the Bantu Authorities Act. This Act will live on. It is in fact entrenched by other recent laws, the basis of which is the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act. The framework Act and the new provincial laws now entrench the contested boundaries and make it virtually impossible for groups who were put under the wrong tribal authority during apartheid to fix the problem.


The new laws enable traditional leaders to have extensive powers within these jurisdictional boundaries. This power is not based on the key customary principle of voluntary affiliation and consensus. Instead, it is based on the apartheid precedent of the top-down statutory power within these fixed geographical boundaries.


These challenges could best be described by the stories related by rural communities during the public participation process. Representatives from Cala University gave the description of a case of two bulls in the same kraal:

Although South Africa has moved from an undemocratic era into a democracy in 1994, the lives of citizens living in communal areas has not changed much, unlike their counterparts in urban areas who are governed by means of elected municipal and ward councillors. Communal areas of South Africa have a complicated arrangement in that both municipal structures and traditional institutions have a say in rural areas.


The Ilizwe Lamafa Farmers’ Union said:


If a person wants land, they have to go to the chief and request that from the chief. If he wishes, he will give you land and if he does not wish so, he will not give you land. The human rights for men, children and women were and are still deprived and violated by these chieftaincies. If you are summoned by the chief and you fail to appear before him, the chief can take away your residential rights or force you to work in his mealie fields for a period. This means that rural people are subjects and not full citizens.


In most of these cases heard, the plight was not for the removal of the traditional leaders, but rather a serious concern by rural communities to fight for the protection of their cultures.


In conclusion, the Black Authorities Act created these tribal authorities. It disregarded individuals, families and clans living in the same area and having particular rights over the same land. Parliament must ensure that much-needed consultation takes place with affected communities and that consultation is not limited to the chiefs. The DA supports the Bill. [Applause.]


Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Speaker, Cope supports the repeal of this repugnant Act, whose introduction in 1951 saw the entrenchment of the divide and rule policy by the National Party government and the subsequent establishment of the Bantustans. As a consequence of this Act, certain individuals were appointed as chiefs against traditional protocols. These chiefs had no legitimacy and were the rural people’s nemeses.


By imposing themselves on rural communities as traditional leaders, they strove to enrich themselves and their families without benefitting the people. Illegitimate chiefs were generally authoritarian and megalomaniacal, and the people therefore rejected them.


The majority of rural areas, as a result of this apartheid era legislation, still do not have infrastructure and amenities even up to the present time. People still have to walk long distances for health care services and to have access to clean water. The use of unsafe containers for storing water is a norm in rural areas. As nothing is being done about that, the health of rural communities has been adversely affected.

Unemployment and poverty continue to deepen, and this has resulted in a massive migration of young men, leaving the aged, women and children in rural areas to fend for themselves.


We want to see the repeal of this Act serving as a beacon of hope to those women who are still perceived as minors and who cannot therefore enjoy land tenure rights. This is intolerable. This Act perpetuated the stereotyping of women and girls. It was therefore difficult for women to have even a piece of land for erecting shelter. This impediment has lingered 16 years into our democracy.


However, in supporting the repeal of this Act, we are mindful that things could unravel in an undesirable way. We urge government to weigh the risks and to be adequately prepared for what may transpire. Cope supports the repeal of the Act and sheds no tears. Thank you.


Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Speaker, the repeal of the Black Authorities Act is very welcome news to the IFP. This was the cornerstone of all divisive statutes of the apartheid regime for it not only discriminated against blacks, but also divided one ethnic group from another. No wonder that all blacks, excluding those who were beneficiaries from the system, rejected it with contempt.


Despite the rejection, Dr Verwoerd, as the architect of Bantustan policy, travelled throughout the country selling his policy. He arrived in Nongoma in October 1955 to address some 300 Zulu amakhosi who had been invited by paramount Chief Cyprian Bhekuzulu to listen to the message of Dr Verwoerd. After the delivery of the message, Prince Buthelezi of KwaPhindangene, as one of the three spokespersons selected by the paramount chief to respond on behalf of the Zulu nation, confronted the fearsome Dr Verwoerd and bluntly told him that the Bantustan policy was not acceptable to the Zulus.


This catapulted Prince Buthelezi to the centre stage of national politics, and the Zulu nation sent emissaries to persuade him to serve in the atrocious system in order to fight it from within. He was also urged by icons of the ANC, Chief Albert Luthuli and Mr O R Tambo, to consider these requests positively. Although opposed to the system, he eventually accepted the offer, and for 20 years - between 1970 and 1990 - he relentlessly fought apartheid in spite of insults and vilification. He was rewarded in 1990 when the then State President, Mr de Klerk, bowed under pressure from Prince Buthelezi and other freedom fighters and dismantled apartheid, to usher in a democratic dispensation through negotiation – an instrument which Prince Buthelezi had always advocated.


Accordingly, the IFP supports the repeal and maintains that it is long overdue. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr S Z NTAPANE: The Bill before us repeals legislation that had its origins in the desire of the apartheid state to abuse traditional leadership to advance its strategy of divide and rule. The Act was used to unilaterally appoint traditional leaders in areas that never fell under traditional leadership, and it was naturally the intention that those appointees would control and manipulate people according to the wishes of the then government. That legal framework was also used to strip legitimate traditional leaders of their positions. The net result was to create divisions and social disruptions that continue to be felt to this day.


Although the new legal framework does not always coherently address the realities of traditional leadership, we are more than happy to bid farewell to the old Black Authorities Act. Good riddance to this Act. The UDM supports the Bill.


Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP supports this Bill. The Black Authorities Act established statutory tribal, regional and territorial authorities to generally administer the affairs of black people and abolished the Black Representative Council, which constituted the limited voting rights that existed at the time. It was a legislative cornerstone of apartheid by means of which black people were controlled and dehumanised. The ACDP agrees that the provisions of this Act are obsolete and repugnant to the values and human rights enshrined in the Constitution, and must be repealed.


The question arises as to why it has taken such a long time to repeal this Act. We understand that there would have been unintended consequences had the Act been repealed earlier, particularly relating to old community, regional and other tribal authorities. The Act makes provision for a sunset clause to enable KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo to repeal those provisions that were assigned to them, hopefully by 31 December 2010. After that date, this contentious Black Authorities Act will be no more. I thank you.


Mr P S SIZANI: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, I do not wonder — perhaps some of you do - why many people from rural areas continue to flock into urban areas in their numbers. Do we remember or refuse to remember that there were black spots in South Africa and that people were herded into Bantustans in the tribal areas created by this Act? Do we remember that there were farm evictions, some of which are still with us today, in order to put the “kaffer op sy plek” [black person in his place] as we continue to hear about in our rural areas today?


As if this project was not enough, where blacks were the “other coloureds” of apartheid, the regime created fake tribal leaders, tribal authorities and tribes, which still characterise South African rural areas today, thus jeopardising the democratic South African landscape in rural areas to this day.


Section 2 of the Act created black tribes, and section 3 of the Act gave the State President the authority to replace governments of black people and create tribal authorities at his discretion. This was meant to administer black affairs and make black people run their own affairs under the supervision and tutelage of the white President of the time. They removed blacks from the main body of the South African economy and the political mainstream, thus disenfranchising blacks and removing their rights in general.


The current democratic state has a Constitution that upholds human dignity and entrenches such rights in the Bill of Rights. In the black spots, black people did not have any human dignity. They were herded away like animals. Nonracialism and nonsexism are entrenched in the South African Constitution today. In those days people were categorised into tribes and kaffirs.


The supremacy ... [Interjections.] Do you want to deny this? [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Are you sure you want to deny that it did exist? [Interjections.]


The South African Constitution, and not the President, enjoys supremacy. I want to repeat this point. The South African Constitution is the supreme law of the country. The President is not the supreme law. Nobody under this Constitution is above the law, not even the President. Because of that the Constitution entrenches the rule of law. It does not allow any President, at his discretion, to remove a person or banish a person from any space in South Africa under the guise of a black spot.


Universal adult suffrage in South Africa gives all of us the right to vote, unlike this Act which excluded blacks from voting in their own country.


The Constitution entrenches equality before the law, equal protection by the law and benefit of the law, unlike Matanzima, Mphephu, Sebe and Qgozo, Mangope and all the others of the same ilk who were a law unto themselves. Their systems and structures cannot exist alongside the democratic system that we have today.


Key to the repeal of this Act is the total eradication of all vestiges of apartheid, including all undemocratic and dehumanising practices of traditional authorities against women and rural people in general.


Furthermore, the Balkanisation of South Africa cannot promote a share in the mineral resources beneath the soil, in the sea and on the land outside tribal areas. Therefore, mobilising South Africans to become their own liberators cannot be enhanced and realised in full unless we remove laws like this. We need to destroy all tribal practices that seek to weaken the progressive organisations, ideas and hegemony in a democratic South Africa.


We in the ANC appreciate that today this Act is an orphan like apartheid, and therefore support its repeal as nobody benefited from it. However, there are practices that were created by this Act whose legacy still exists everywhere in South Africa and we must pursue and find them. I thank you. [Applause.]


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me first thank the hon members for supporting this repeal Bill. Thank you very much.


The mission of the ANC is twofold in the main. Firstly, it is to unite all South Africans across race, gender and class. Secondly, it is to eradicate the legacy of colonialism and apartheid in all its forms. Now, since 1994, the ANC in this House and in the various legislative bodies across the country has been introducing legislation and policies to achieve this objective. Today this repeal Bill is part of this process of uniting South Africans and of eradicating the legacy of colonialism and apartheid. That is why we appreciate that today we have unanimously, as members of this House, accepted this repeal Bill.


Lastly, it is very important for us to note that it is not going to take us 24 hours, 24 months or even five years to eradicate the legacy of colonialism and apartheid. It is going to take a lot of time, a lot of resilience, a lot of hard work and a lot of commitment. That’s what we mean by the national democratic revolution. We sometimes hear people asking what it is that we mean by the national democratic revolution. This is exactly what we mean. It is a process. It is going to take us a bit of time, but we are committed to it, and we will achieve our objective. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


Bill read a second time.




(Second Reading debate)


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill, otherwise known as the Ipid Bill, that has been placed before this House forms an important part of our approach to policing and the type of force we envisage and wish to see moving forward.


Whilst we put more emphasis on fighting crime, particularly on combating serious and violent crime and fighting it toughly, we, at the same time, balance that with our philosophy of community policing, which is oriented towards respect for human rights, being community-centred, being biased towards the weak and addressing the safety needs of society.


This piece of legislation will ensure that the rule of law is upheld at all material times, even by the law enforcement agencies. This Bill was introduced to Parliament together with the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill. The two Bills speak to the commitment of the civilian oversight role over the Police Service.


In changing the focus and the name of the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, we are sending a clear message that the new body will not just focus on processing complaints, but its emphasis will also be on developing a strong investigating capacity. We also seek to investigate substantial systemic defects in policing and in general corruption.


The Bill before this august body today does not only change in name, but it also creates a separate piece of legislation away from where it is located currently — within the SA Police Service Act.


Historically, there have been several problems that plagued the smooth operation of the ICD. While it had powers to investigate the police, it still had to submit its findings to the police themselves. This issue has been raised over a period of time, particularly by parliamentarians.


In the legislation determining the mandate of Ipid, the focus is squarely on what the most important issues are that Ipid should deal with in order to make a real impact. In the process of determining the mandate, the principle used is that Ipid should investigate those matters that will have a lasting impact on transforming the police into a structure that not only deals with crime with vigour, but also upholds the law and the Constitution. It also highlights the fact that domestic violence will be removed from Ipid and be placed under the secretariat.


The one area we specifically located under the new Ipid is the investigation of any police officer involved in rape. We adopted this stance primarily because crimes against women and girl-children remain one of government’s key priorities. We want to ensure that in cases where a police officer is suspected of committing such crimes, such a case is investigated by an independent body. This approach will go a long way in building public confidence in the force whilst at the same time re-enforcing government’s commitment to ensure that the most vulnerable in society are not abused by the very people who should protect them.


The Bill speaks to the fact that the national office should be a lean administrative office providing strategic leadership and direction, but with the capacity to execute the mandate located at various provincial offices.


The White Paper speaks to the need to strengthen the relationship between the ICD and the Civilian Secretariat for the Police Service. This Bill enhances the relationship in some detail and strengthens co-operation between the two bodies. With this piece of legislation, we have committed ourselves to continue to work for the entrenchment of a culture of human rights. We have now provided the new Ipid with the necessary tools, and it will be up to the leadership of this body to implement their mandate. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon Members of Parliament and our guests, hon members will know that SA Police Service members have huge legitimate powers such as to arrest would-be criminals, take suspicious people in for questioning, search people with or without warrants and use deadly force when it is reasonably necessary, to mention but a few.


As part of their work requirements, they are issued with firearms — the well-known R5s — as it is legally understood that there may be circumstances that require the use of firearms. These powers are indeed huge, and if not monitored they can be brutally abused by the SA Police Service members.


In order to prevent such brutality, section 206(6) of the Constitution of the Republic calls for the establishment of an organisation that should investigate any police brutality or abuse of power. From 1997 until now, that organisation has been and still is known as the ICD. It was established by the SA Police Service Act, Act 68 of 1995. The mandate of the ICD, as we speak, is to make recommendations on cases it investigates and submit those recommendations about police members to police management for implementation. The current legislation, namely chapter 10 of the SA Police Service Act, does not force SA Police Service members to implement the ICD recommendations. This simply means that the ICD recommendations are left to the discretion of the police management to decide whether to implement those recommendations or not.


Because of this shortcoming, most often than not the SA Police Service management simply ignores the ICD recommendations. Hence many organisations and individuals, particularly the Portfolio Committees on Safety and Security and lately on Police, realised that the ICD is a toothless but extremely necessary organisation. It is through this understanding that the ANC Polokwane national conference resolved that the ICD should be strengthened.


The Bill that is before the House establishes a much empowered organisation called Ipid. Unlike the ICD, which is complaint-driven, Ipid will be investigation-driven. This Bill in fact repeals Chapter 10 of the SA Police Service Act and amends other sections of the SA Police Service Act. It also amends the Witness Protection Act, Domestic Violence Act and the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-Related Information Act. These repeals and amendments ensure that Ipid, unlike the ICD, has teeth and can bite. Ipid will focus on more serious and priority crimes committed by members of the SA Police Service. If you are not a member of the SAPS, you will not be protected or your case will not be processed by Ipid. Those cases include, as the Minister has mentioned, deaths, rape, torture, assault and matters relating to systemic corruption. Hon Ms Van Wyk will explain these in more detail.


This Bill also streamlines and recognises the handling process of complaints and investigation functions. It establishes a formal liaison mechanism between Ipid and the Civilian Secretariat for the Police Service through the consultative forum. This forum will see Ipid, the executive director and the civilian secretariat meeting at least four times a year.


This Bill also ensures Ipid’s independent oversight of the SA Police and municipal police services. In this regard, Ipid will continue to be a designated organisation. It will train its investigators and it will have peace officer or police official powers as provided for in the Criminal Procedure Act.


The Bill further aligns provincial strategic objectives with those of the national office to enhance the functioning of the directorate. To achieve this objective, the executive director will appoint provincial heads of Ipid and establish a management committee that consists of an executive director and a provincial head of each province.


The Bill outlines the process to follow in dealing with recommendations in respect of the SA Police Service and municipal police services resulting from investigations conducted by the directorate, as well as sanctions that include imprisonment in the event Ipid’s recommendations are ignored by the SAPS. This did not exist with the ICD.


The Bill clearly enhances accountability and transparency by the SA Police Service and municipal police services, of course in accordance with the principles of the Constitution. This Bill clearly spells out first that the SAPS and municipal police must co-operate with Ipid. Failure to do so will result in sanctions being applied. These may also include a prison sentence.


The Bill provides for Ipid to function independently from the SA Police Service and calls for each organ of state to assist the directorate to maintain its impartiality and to perform its functions effectively.


As I conclude, let me thank all those institutions, organisations and individuals who made written and/or oral submissions on this Bill. Most of the submissions identified weaknesses in the Bill, which were referred to the committee. Options and solutions were provided, which assisted us in the processing and production of the Bill that is before this House today.


Let me mention here that all those who made submissions supported the Bill. Almost 95% or more of the submissions advised us as the portfolio committee to define “torture”. We clearly heard these submission, but all members across party lines took a decision not to define “torture” in this Bill. We believe that the Combating of Torture Bill is the Bill that should define “torture”. This means that the dictionary definition will be used for the purpose of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill. Hon Koos agrees with me.


It will also be important for me to thank the state law advisers, the ICD staff and particularly the executive director, as well as the civilian secretary. These people worked very hard and met all our deadlines. Our support staff equally assisted us, and we appreciate their contributions. The media showed positive interest in this Bill, and we appreciate that.


Lastly, but not least, I want to thank all members of the portfolio committee. I think and believe that the Bill that is before the House today is good. I believe that it will empower Ipid and, as such, be supported by all parties. The ANC supports the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]


Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Deputy Speaker, in 1994, as a country we moved away from an era when policing had been in total thrall to the political regime. We created a Police Service and moved away from what was previously a police force – a police force that literally forced citizens to look down the barrel of a gun should they attempt to question their right not to live under unjust laws and globally despised policies. Indeed, any citizen who attempted to stand up against them was treated extremely harshly, and political prisoners regularly slipped on a bar of soap and fell out of the top floors of police headquarters all around the country.


An effective oversight and investigatory unit was required in order to serve as a watchdog for the police. However, for as many years as I have been on the Police or the Safety and Security portfolio committee, as it was called during the last term, I have been watching the ICD exemplify the most cynical nonimplementation of the constitutional mandate.


Before the unit was established in 1997, the SAPS had a special investigation unit based in Pretoria that dealt with corruption cases. But they closed that down and created the anticorruption unit, which they also closed down, claiming that the ICD would deal with such matters. They then very deliberately kept the ICD on a shoestring budget, effectively ensuring that the police complaint system was marginalised at a time of entrenched corruption and criminality within the SAPS and indeed at a time when, elsewhere in the world, the handling of such complaints by the public was developing apace. What the public was left with was 219 people nationwide to deal with deaths in police custody or as a result of police action or other serious police transgressions. The ICD had a 23% turnover rate and the anticorruption unit had three investigators and one investigation officer per 44 000 SAPS members.


Today in this House we take a great stride forward in at long last giving the ICD — soon to be known as Ipid — the teeth of a bulldog. One must focus on the reasons for this new legislation. It is absolutely possible that the hon members who created the ICD in 1997 believed they were creating implementable legislation, but it had one fatal flaw. They presumed that the SAPS would honour the spirit of the Bill. The ICD recommendations regarding criminality, misconduct or deaths — as the case may have been — were in fact, in most cases, ignored. Sadly, the nation learnt the hard way that SAPS members are mere flesh and blood like the rest of us and, given an option, would inevitably take the easiest way out.


At the outset the indications were that the system would work well, but after the honeymoon came the cold, hard reality that what had been created was in fact a marriage from hell. The SAPS woke up to the fact that there was gestating within it an entity created to crush its own criminality. But, to their relief, they realised that there was nothing at all in the Bill that could force them to implement those recommendations.


According to one briefing by the ICD to the portfolio committee — I remember well how it was revealed — the number of complaints received against the SAPS had increased from 5 000 the previous year to over 6 000. Deaths in police custody as a result of police action had also increased from 792 to 912 over the same period. At the same time the SAPS was less and less inclined to bother to act on the ICD recommendations. Indeed they implemented just 58% of them and threw the rest into the trash. I watched in horror as that figure dropped to 42%. The last time I asked, the SAPS were implementing just 10% of those recommendations. The recommendations represent hours and hours of hard work on the part of professional investigators. The SAPS today treats the outcomes of those investigations with total contempt.


So, what exactly were they ignoring? Well, in just one year we learnt that criminal conduct by police had increased by 24%, misconduct by 6% and deaths in police custody by 15%. On numerous occasions the deaths in police custody were only learned about by the ICD when they read about it in the newspapers — newspapers which are currently still allowed to report on such travesties.


Indeed, every year the ICD receives an increased number of complaints. What is of particular interest is the fact that the ICD is one of the best kept secrets in the country. The Ministry has kept the ICD as close guarded a secret as one might expect some people to keep a mistress or an illegitimate child. It has been suggested that accountability and oversight were being increasingly neglected. I would say the neglect itself was criminal


In 2005, 22 police officers — the most in six years - had been reported to the ICD for allegedly raping members of the public, including children. It would be shocking even if one of our police officers had done that. But they were accused of such acts. What was just as shocking was that apparently their colleagues, other SAPS members, covered up for them. The result was that not one of the 22 had ever been charged or convicted.


Police officers were reportedly hiding evidence against their colleagues so that charges were withdrawn. In other cases police officers were arrested only to be released on petty cash bail amounts. At the same time the ICD told us that this was just the tip of the iceberg.


An example of how guilty members of the SAPS are allowed to return to duty was reported where a constable who was found guilty of indecently assaulting a gang-rape victim was back at work the next week. During the 2006-07 financial year, a total number of 707 SAPS employees were criminally charged for aiding escapees. Of those 707, only 14 were suspended. Of those 14 suspensions, only six were found guilty, and one resigned. Presumably we were to believe that the other prisoners mastered the art of teleportation.


The manipulation of crime statistics alone has certainly never been properly tackled, and yet one must come back again and again to the unthinkable. We are also referring to instances where citizens are shot, beaten, raped, killed or tortured by SAPS members or gang-raped in cells or indeed women put in men’s cells and left to be gang-raped overnight. It was horrific to learn of the travesty of justice for one of those women. The two officers on duty who locked her in the males-only cell were served a sentence of dismissal, suspended for six months. That meant that they were back at work the next day and faced no loss of income, demotion or any other penalty.


The value placed by the SAPS on this woman’s life, body and wellbeing was so contemptuously dismissive that it made women all over the country fear for their own safety and terrified that, should they find themselves locked up for an unpaid traffic fine or any other petty offence, they may suffer the same fate. They were asking if this was what women could hope to expect from the SAPS.


As for males, how many men have been raped in police cells because proper and regular cell checks were not conducted? The message sent out to the general public and to other SAPS members here was that they would keep their jobs, regardless of how negligent they were and how many people suffered because they failed in their duty.


So, it comes as no surprise that some SAPS members take bribes, lose dockets and refuse to open cases with impunity. After all, what actual risk was there that anything serious would happen to them? A report published by the Centre for Violence and Reconciliation stated that when asked what the worst thing was that would happen to them if they were caught taking a bribe, 6% of the SAPS members replied that nothing would happen to them and 32% stated that they might get a written warning.


The SAPS members do not perceive that there is any real risk of serious repercussions if caught failing in their duty. If you did wrong, you had very little to fear, until today. What incentive has there been for the public to report incidents of abuse when little action was taken against police members in the wrong? This lack of firm action not only undermined the morale of good cops — and there is a vast majority — but it also discouraged people from co-operating with the police, until today.


Even when the SAPS management went to the extraordinary length of suspending a member, they were suspended on full pay, and the investigation would then be stalled. These investigations took months, if not years, thereby costing taxpayers millions. At that stage, only 2% of SAPS employees criminally charged with assisting in the escapes from police cells, for example, were ever suspended. And when I last checked, we were looking at R90 million having been spent on the salaries of suspended SAPS members.


At the time when public confidence in the police was decreasing, these figures should have been setting off alarm bells among senior SAPS management. Instead, when questioned about the low dismissal rate of police criminally charged with rape, murder and armed robbery, the then SAPS Director of Communications, Selby Bokaba, stated that “the SA Police Service disciplined members in other ways besides dismissal”. One law for the police and another for the rest of us.


The ICD did the best it could under the most impossible circumstances, which included a lack of co-operation from the SAPS, inadequate funding and a high staff turnover due to salaries. The SAPS simply did not take matters of police discipline seriously. Ironically, during the provincial “shutdown-the-Scorpions” hearings packed with bussed-in ANC members, claims were made from the floor that there were still housebreakings, rapes and attacks, and thus this elite crime-fighting unit should be shut down. This was ironic because of the confirmed presence of police members within the SAPS who had been found guilty of offences on active duty while it was them, and not the Scorpions, who should have been dealing with those types of matters.


The latest SAPS annual report revealed that the police had set aside R7,5 billion for civil legal claims against the department, equivalent to 18% of the budget. Indeed, the civil claims increased by 31% in just 12 months. These included assault, shootings, damage to property, police actions and the like. It became obvious that the inability of the SAPS to hold its own officers to account constituted one of the most significant impediments to expanding and improving the quality of policing. My attempts to introduce a private member’s Bill to radically empower and expand the role of the ICD were put on hold over and over again. But today, finally, we see some action aimed at cleaning the dirt out of the SAPS and polishing up a badge that has been badly tarnished. Virtually every proposal in my private member’s Bill has been incorporated into the legislation.


The time for empty rhetoric is over. This Bill gives the power to the civilian body to oversee our police. The DA will support this Bill – a Bill we have worked on so well together in the portfolio committee. But I must raise the issue again that the head of the ICD — soon to be Ipid — should be at the same level as the National Police Commissioner. Within the context of a ranked structure psyche, not having this situation could and probably will lead to problems of attempted noncompliance.


It may be too late for the woman allegedly raped by police some 10 months ago in Knysna — to date no identity parade has be held. It may be too late for the three students in King Williams Town driven off the road by student police, terribly injured and then robbed at gunpoint. It may be too late for the wildlife officer left by drunken officers to be gang-raped by 20 men overnight in Northern KwaZulu-Natal. But this Bill is certainly going to give this watchdog the bite it needs and should have been given long ago. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the most significant aspect of the Bill before us lies in its ensuring that the Police Service becomes a professional Police Service that operates within the spirit of our constitutional norms. Section 205(3) of the South African Constitution of 1996 states that:


The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.


Ipid was established under section 50(1) of the SA Police Service Act and section 222 of the interim Constitution, amongst other things, to ensure that cases against the police are properly investigated. In the Constitution section 206(3), (5)(a) and (6) combined are the relevant sections. The complaints body must investigate cases brought before it and those of alleged misconduct or offences committed by a member of the Police Service.


Without this body, the police would be a law unto themselves and be accountable to no one. Ipid replaces the ICD which was established in terms of the legislation that predated our Constitution. As such, the constitutional requirement of government to establish an independent police investigative directorate, in terms of section 206 has not been given full effect up to now. This Bill, therefore, rectifies a very important omission.

The Bill is further aimed at addressing the historical abuse of power, the allegations and/or reports of police brutality towards citizens under arrest and those caught up the crossfire as police members carry out their duties. There are also high levels of police torture and abuse of victims in violation of citizenship rights as opposed to fair treatment, arrest procedures, interrogations and violations of human rights outside the realms of their overall work. Historical events and details in the annual report point to several documented cases where the Police Service has failed members of the public by investigating itself and then covering up for itself.


The Bill provides for the obligation by the police to co-operate with the law, engage civilians oversight and make sure that it does not have unwarranted outcomes where there is a failure to comply. Funds are to come directly from Parliament’s budget as part of its appropriation. International examples which show that this Bill is a step in the right direction include Brazil, which has a police ombudsman and a civilian complaints review board, and the USA, which has an inspector-general. This is going to help us take away the element of political interference.


Targets of this Bill include the following: police offences should relate to deaths in police custody, rapes and the shooting of innocent victims in the line of duty as a result of police misconduct; the investigative operations of the previous ICD should be strengthened, and its mandate should be more refined; there should be an authority to refer matters for specialist investigations to other relevant orders; and there should be co-ordination with other police bodies.


The fact that the directorate will be independent from the Police Service and that it will report directly to the Minister of Police is both welcome and necessary. On the one hand it will allow for independent oversight of the SA Police Service as well as the municipal police services, and on the other hand it will afford Parliament an opportunity to exercise greater oversight over the Minister himself.


The independence, impartiality and accountability of the directorate are important developments. In the recent past, the ICD was not taken seriously. Unfortunately a large number of recommendations it made to the Police Service were blatantly ignored. However, that will now be history. Henceforth, failure to implement the recommendations of the directorate is a criminal offence punishable by law in terms of this Bill.


The aim of this Bill is to make sure that South Africa has a professional Police Force that responds to human rights and will not unnecessarily target law-abiding policemen and women who operate within the law. It also aims to strengthen the expertise, resources and independence of the civilian oversight of the Police Service. By changing its name to Ipid, this gives the directorate a platform to approach this new Bill with more openness, resolve and purpose, both politically and operationally.


Cope hopes that the executive director will perform his duty with credibility and professionalism free from politics, and be transparent. It is imperative that the directorate is properly resourced so as to carry out its mandate. Cope also supports a most thorough security screening of members appointed to the directorate. We hope that the government will make sure the screening is done in such a way that no one joins the investigative directorate without having been screened properly. Therefore, Cope supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr V B NDLOVU:  Sekela Somlomo, neNdlu ehloniphekileyo ... [Madam Deputy Speaker, and this august House ...]


... the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill is an essential component of an effective and accountable Police Service. As its very name suggests, it must be independent and, by its definition thereof, impartial. This is critical to both the directorate and the Police Force’s success in delivering an effective and accountable service to the public of South Africa. Therefore, the Bill must not only establish the investigative directorate, but it must also give it teeth and measures of protection from those who would otherwise be able to use and abuse political powers and persuasion to thwart the directorate in its investigative functions.


The IFP is vehemently opposed to any form of interference with the investigative directorate from either the secretariat or the Ministry. We concur very strongly with the Minister of Police when he said at the beginning of August that the Bill must address the past weaknesses of the directorate and that the directorate must act as a check on police powers. Police misconduct and criminality will be relegated to the past where it belongs as it has no place and is most unwelcome in our democracy.


However, the Bill is not a universal panacea and will not be able to correct all the problems on its own. It must be supported by effective legislation and sufficient resources, and left to its own resources in the carrying out of its duties as only then will it be a truly effective tool for the oversight of our Police Service.


The provincial head of the directorate must report to both the MEC and the premier in order to make sure that the head of government in the province knows exactly what is going on within the Police Service.


In conclusion, the IFP wishes to stress the importance of the total independence and apolitical alignment of this directorate as this is the only manner in which it will be able to carry out its mandate successfully. We further state that, as a party, we do not wish to see or hear about any favours being granted to any individual or group of individuals. The law must apply equally to all as all are equal in the eyes of the law. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr S Z NTAPANE: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, the UDM welcomes the Bill that is before us today. Indeed, we urge government to promulgate and implement the provisions with haste. Since its inception, the Independent Complaints Directorate has struggled to perform its most basic function, namely to act as a watchdog over the police. This Bill seeks to address this glaring legal hole in our democratic dispensation with the introduction of a reconstituted Independent Police Investigative Directorate, as well as the innovation of the substantial penalties and prison sentences for police officials who contravene the provision of this Bill to undermine investigations.


Whenever we formulate a policy and legislation, it is important that we remember why the constitutional obligations of this democracy were created in the first place. In this particular case, it means that we need to remember the brutality, ruthlessness and lawlessness that many members of the apartheid police operated with. Those police atrocities and injustices were some of the hallmarks of an illegitimate, oppressive regime. In a modern constitutional democracy, we cannot allow such behaviour. That is why we must be vigilant, especially at this time when it is popular for VIP police members to behave like thugs with badges.


We note that the estimated cost of making the new directorate operational runs into several hundred million rands. We need unconditional undertakings from the Minister that this money will be forthcoming and that it will be spent on acquiring the required officials and investigators. We cannot tolerate a continuation of the previous trend of an understaffed directorate that failed to swiftly and thoroughly investigate incidents involving the police. The UDM supports the Bill. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Adjunkspeaker, die burgers van ’n land moet vetroue kan hê in hul polisielede, want die polisie is die enigste instansie waarheen burgers kan gaan waar hulle voel hul regte, asook hul lewens, beskerm word.


Nou wil ek vir die agb Minister sê, u het vandag van hierdie podium af gehoor van die een voorbeeld na die ander van wangedrag onder ons polisielede. Agb Minister, die publiek van Suid-Afrika het op hierdie oomblik nie die vertroue in die Polisiediens wat hulle behoort te hê nie. Daar gebeur te voel goed, en ek stem saam, dit is dáárdie lede wat ’n verleentheid is vir die ander lede in ons polisie.


Ek wil ook vir u sê, agb Minister, dat die VF Plus hierdie wetsontwerp verwelkom. Dit is ’n wetsontwerp wat al lankal hier gedebatteer moes gewees het en alreeds geïmplementeer moes gewees het.


Maar ek wil vir u sê, u kan soveel strukture en soveel rade en direktorate instel as u wil, maar u moet gaan kyk na die dissipline wat in ons Polisiediens heers. Ons mense het nie genoeg dissipline nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)


[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Speaker, the citizens of a country should be able to trust the members of their police, because the police are the only institution to which citizens can turn for the protection of their rights as well as their lives.


Now I want to say to the Minister that he has heard here today, from this podium, one example after the other of misconduct by police officers. Hon Minister, right now the South African public does not have the confidence it should have in the Police Service. There is too much going on, and I agree that those members are an embarrassment to the others in our Police Service.


I also want to tell you, hon Minister, that the FF Plus welcomes this Bill. It is a Bill that should have been debated here a long time ago and implemented already.


But I want to say that while you may introduce as many structures, councils and directorates as you wish, you should rather be looking at the discipline that prevails in our Police Service. Our people do not possess enough discipline.]


They are not proud to be members of the SA Police Service. If they were proud, they would comply with the rules and set an example to citizens of our country to comply with legislation. There is a lack of that pride and discipline in our Police Service, and I miss it.


So, ons kan wel hierdie direktoraat hê, maar ons moet indringend gaan kyk om die dissipline in die Polisiediens terug te bring.


Verder wil ek sê dat ons nou wel die direktoraat het wat ons gaan instel, maar ons moet dan ook seker maak dat hierdie direktoraat dit prakties kan uitvoer. Ek is bekommerd. Ons moet sorg dat hulle genoeg mannekrag het en dat hulle die finansies het om behoorlike ondersoeke te kan doen. Dan sal ons weer die vertroue in die Polisiediens terugkry. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)


[So we can have this directorate, but we should thoroughly investigate the restoration of discipline in the Police Service.


Furthermore, although there may be this directorate that we are going to introduce, we should still ensure its ability to act. I am concerned. We must ensure the presence of sufficient manpower and funds to undertake proper investigations. Then we will regain our trust in the Police Service. Thank you.]


Mr G LEKGETHO: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members, comrades and fellow South Africans, the ANC’s 2007 Polokwane conference resolved to strengthen the Independent Complaints Directorate. This Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill is doing exactly that. For this to happen we need an independent police investigative directorate that is efficient, strong, and has teeth to bite and crush.


My role today is to inform hon members about and persuade them to support the Bill. In persuading the hon members, I will deal in some detail with some of the provisions of the Bill. The Bill talks about the establishment of a national office headed by an executive director. In accordance with the Public Service Act, the Minister will nominate a suitably qualified candidate for appointment to head the directorate. The hon Minister will then allow the committee to confirm or reject the appointment within 30 days.


The appointment is for a term of five years and is renewable for one additional term only. This is important for grooming the new broom and to also let it exit in a dignified manner while it still sweeps clean. Hon members should pay keen attention to this. I will detail it later.

The head has a huge responsibility to carry out. He or she must ensure, amongst others, that proper records of all financial transactions, assets and liabilities of the directorate are kept. The executive director is also responsible for the appointment of provincial heads when there are vacancies.


It is also fitting to mention the composition of the national office. It will consist of the executive director, the corporate service unit, the investigation and information unit, the legal unit and any other unit established subject to the approval of the hon Minister, Nathi Mthethwa.


The functions of the national office are critical and must be mentioned. The national office must do the following: give strategic leadership to the directorate; conduct internal audits of the directorate; provide administrative support; submit an annual report to the Minister and Parliament; refer criminal offences to the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA; and refer complaints regarding disciplinary matters to the national commissioner and, where appropriate, to relevant provincial commissioners, to mention but a few.


The Bill allows for the establishment of a management committee that consists of provincial heads. The executive director may invite any person he or she deems fit to the meeting of the committee. The committee will, amongst others, ensure co-ordination and alignment within each province regarding priorities, objectives and strategies across national and provincial levels, and it will also ensure adherence to financial requirements prescribed in terms of the Public Finance Management Act.


The committee will also indentify other matters of strategic importance to the functioning of the directorate within each province. These interventions are appropriate for the speedy and efficient establishment of a single police entity as resolved in Polokwane.


The Bill also provides for the establishment of a consultative forum to facilitate closer co-operation between the civilian secretary and the executive director to discuss issues relating to trends, recommendations and the implementation of such recommendations. The meetings of the forum must be held at least four times per year. This is important because there is no guesswork as to when and how many meetings should be held. The committee will monitor and get reports. This is business unusual.


It is true that the Bill provides for the establishment of provincial offices with provincial heads at the top. He or she will be responsible for the appointment and performance management of the staff. The head will control and monitor active cases and ensure adherence to guidelines issued by the national office relating to investigation and the management of cases by officials within their respective provinces. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr S N SWART:  Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the ACDP will support this Bill. The Bill is a response to the question “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” Who guards the guards? Section 206(6) of the Constitution provides for the establishment of an independent police investigative directorate to guard the guards by investigating any alleged misconduct or offence committed by a member of the Police Service.


There is clearly a need for a more effective, well-resourced and independent investigative directorate, particularly if one has regard to the wide powers enjoyed by members of the Police Service, including the right to use deadly force under certain circumstances. One only has to be reminded of the controversies surrounding the blue-light brigades as well as allegations of uniformed members committing crimes, including rape and torture, to appreciate the need for this much-improved directorate.


The ACDP welcomes the fact that this directorate will operate independently of the Police Service, with a separate budget. The thrust of the directorate’s work will be to address systemic problems within the Police Service. The directorate will be able to investigate a number of offences, including deaths in police custody, deaths as a result of police action, rapes by police officers – whether on or off duty – complaints of torture and corruption matters within the police.


We as the ACDP trust that the work of the directorate will contribute to ensuring that the Police Service becomes a far more professional service that operates within the boundaries and norms of the Constitution.


However, in order for this directorate to operate effectively, it requires sufficient investigators and resources. Without the necessary teeth, this Bill will be aimless. The ACDP will thus closely monitor the implementation plan for this Bill. I thank you.


Ms A VAN WYK: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, hon members, in 2005, Parliament adopted a report from the then Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security. The report was a product of interaction over a period of time between the portfolio committee and the national office of the ICD and its provincial offices. Serious concerns were raised in the report and some recommendations were made. Amongst these recommendations were that in order for the ICD to function properly it required legislation separate from that of the SA Police Service Act. Not only would separate legislation enhance the independence of the directorate, but it would also provide an opportunity to deal extensively with the operational and structural challenges facing the directorate.


The Bill before the House today addresses all these issues and more. It provides the framework for a strong, well-empowered and effective police oversight body. The truth is that we require of our men and women in blue to be the custodians of our laws, to execute their duties with honour and dignity and to, at all times, act in such a manner that will enhance public respect and confidence. Any elements within the police whom are bringing dishonour to the police should face the full might of the law.


The Bill determines that the national office will provide for strategic direction and administrative support. It is at provincial offices where the actual work will take place and where we should create capacity.


Chapter 5 of the Bill provides for the establishment of provincial offices. It deals with the appointment of provincial heads by the executive director and requirements regarding their performance agreements. In the past, high vacancy rates within the ICD were a huge problem, especially at provincial offices, and the committee wanted to ensure that we will not have a repeat of that. As a result, section 20(5) determines that the executive director must fill vacancies at the level of a provincial head within a period not exceeding six months.


Section 21 deals with the responsibilities of the provincial heads. These include the normal administrative and financial functions. It further empowers the provincial heads to refer matters investigated at this level to prosecuting authorities for a decision on criminal prosecution. The provincial heads must also provide the executive director with reports on matters investigated and the finalisation and recommendations of cases. They must also report to the relevant MEC on matters that were referred by the MEC to the provincial head.


In chapter 6, the Bill deals with investigators’ appointments, their functions and the powers they have. In order to be appointed as an investigator, applicants will have to undergo a security screening. This must be done in conjunction with the National Intelligence Agency, NIA. Investigators can also be subject to further security clearances from time to time. Any investigator who does not comply with security clearance prescripts must be discharged from their position as an investigator. All investigators will be given policing powers, and this chapter obliges the Minister to bestow such powers on an investigator within three months after they have been appointed.


Investigators have powers provided for in the Criminal Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1977, relating to the following: the investigation of offences; the ascertainment of bodily features of an accused; the entry and search of premises; the seizure and disposal of articles; arrests; the execution of warrants; and the attendance of an accused person in court. Investigators will also be able to direct any person to submit an affidavit or affirmed declaration. They can also direct any person to appear before them or to give evidence and hand over documents that have a bearing on a case that is investigated. They may also question persons on such evidence.


Section 25 deals with conflicts of interest and the disclosure of such interests by investigators. Any investigator who has financial or other interests in a case that is being investigated must declare so, and they will have to withdraw from such an investigation if they have a conflict of interest. Like with the legislation that deals with the Hawks, this Bill also makes provision for integrity measures that may be prescribed by the Minister.


Section 28 of the Bill deals with the type of matters that the Independent Police Investigative Directorate will be investigating. This is one of the sections of the Bill that resulted in the most debate. Before I deal with this section, I think it’s important to highlight that there are different departure points on this issue. There are those — and we have seen them today in action — who would like to create the impression that the police cannot investigate itself or its own. This is a view that we as the ANC do not share. There are, as we speak, ex-police officers locked up in our jails because of criminal investigations conducted by the police themselves. There are many examples. Over just the last few weeks, the police acted decisively against criminal elements that infiltrated their ranks.


The ANC believes that, ultimately, the police remain responsible to investigate acts of criminality, no matter who committed those acts. We do not subscribe to the hysterical notion that all of the police are corrupt or criminal. We believe that the majority of our police are hardworking, honest men and women who execute their duties with honour. That said, we need to focus Ipid where its action will make the most and a lasting difference. The action that they take should not only address the individual police officer who did wrong, but must also send a clear message to the rest of the Service while influencing, with lasting impact, the way in which things are done and the way police conduct themselves.


Section 28 determines that Ipid must investigate all deaths in police custody and any deaths as a result of police actions. These actions include any deaths that occurs while the police were busy executing their duties. This provision also allows for planned operations by the police. But it also allows for those incidents where a police officer puts himself or herself back on duty to effect an arrest. The debate around this issue was whether we should include any deaths by a police officer while on or off duty. If, for example, a police officer who is not on duty visits a club, gets into an argument and then murders a person, it is our view that this is simply a criminal matter and as such an investigation must be handled accordingly and be investigated by the police.


Furthermore, Ipid must investigate any complaint relating to the discharge of an official firearm by a police officer. The deciding factor here is that there must be a complainant and there does not necessarily have to be an injury as a result of such shooting. An example here would be the inquest conducted by the Human Rights Commission into the shooting by Metro police officers in the City of Cape Town in 2007 during xenophobic attacks, where municipal police officers shot at two young boys playing innocently. While there was no injury, this was clearly an abuse of power and a shockingly inhumane action.


This section also obliges Ipid to investigate all cases of rape where the accused is a police officer, whether that police officer has been on or off duty. Many members have spoken about this point. It was felt that it is important that Ipid investigates such cases as part of government’s commitment to address crimes against women and children decisively. Furthermore, Ipid will also investigate any cases of rape while such a person was in the custody of the police. Here it does not matter who the perpetrator is. The fact that the person got raped while in police custody indicates some form of negligence on the part of the police. The investigation in this regard will not only focus on who committed the crime, but also on why it was possible for a rape to be committed while the person was in the custody of the police.


Complaints of torture and assault against a police officer must also be investigated. The executive director can initiate investigations of corruption on his or her own or after the receipt of a complaint by a member of the public or when a case was referred by the Minister. Furthermore, Ipid must investigate any other matter referred to it by the Minister, an MEC or the Secretary of Police.


The issue of systemic corruption may be investigated by the directorate. The concept of systemic corruption was, to some, abstract. Typically, the nature of systemic corruption would be, for instance, where it is reported that a specific police station is involved in the bribing of foreigners. Something within the station — the command and control of the station or the systems used — allows for this to happen. Here the focus would not only be on who was involved in the corruption, but also on how it was possible for them to be involved.


Chapter 7 deals with the reporting obligations and co-operation by members of the SAPS and municipal police services and disciplinary recommendations. This has been one of the biggest complaints by the ICD over the years and one of the greatest criticisms against their effectiveness. Many of the cases they investigate might not result in a criminal procedure, but the recommendation might be that disciplinary action be taken by the SAPS. There was no obligation on the SAPS to implement such recommendations, and they were often just ignored. This section in the Bill changes that completely.

Section 29 obliges any member of the SAPS to immediately inform Ipid if they become aware of any matter contemplated in section 28 - the offences. Within 24 hours after that the SAPS must submit a written report to the directorate. Section 29(2) spells out the co-operation that is required from the SAPS and municipal police members during an investigation. This includes assisting Ipid investigators to arrange ID parades within 48 hours after being requested and securing the availability of members for affidavits, statements, necessary documents and to give evidence.


Where Ipid’s recommendation is that disciplinary steps be taken against a member or members, the national commissioner or the appropriate provincial commissioner is now obliged to institute disciplinary hearings within 30 days after receiving the recommendation. Clearly, this now takes away the discretionary handling of recommendations by the police or municipal police. On a quarterly basis, a report on the progress of such disciplinary matters must be submitted to the Minister with copies of it to the executive director and the Secretary of Police. Upon finalisation, the national commissioner or relevant provincial commissioner must inform the Minister of the outcome of such hearings and again submit copies to the executive director and the Secretary of Police.


Chapter 9 deals with offences and penalties. Any person or private entity who interferes, hinders or obstructs the directorate is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to a fine or imprisonment not exceeding two years. Members of the directorate who disclose information that can affect a case will face the same sanction. Most important in this section is that the police officers who are in contravention with regard to anything contained in section 29 will also be liable to a fine or a period of imprisonment not exceeding two years. There is no one set of teeth in this Bill, but there are about 10 sets of teeth in this Bill.


Ipid, through the executive director, has the same reporting obligations as any other department to the Minister, the Auditor-General and Parliament.


We have no doubt in our minds that this Bill thoroughly addresses the shortcomings in the previous legislation. We further believe that, if properly implemented and executed with diligence, the Bill will go a long way in further instilling a culture of human rights, an ethos of service and an approach above any suspicion within the SAPS and municipal police services. Our people expect and deserve nothing less. The ball is now in the hands of the leadership of the executive director and his staff to make the difference.


Hon Kohler-Barnard raised a few issues that I just quickly want to respond to. But I am going to do so in basically one sentence. Hon Kohler-Barnard, I think is time to consider retirement and start writing that melodrama that you present to us on a daily basis. The Minister is not responsible for whether the ICD is known or not known out there. That is the responsibility of the leadership of the ICD, and we must make sure, as Parliament, that they actually do that. I thank you. [Applause.]


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise to thank all the members of the committee as they participated positively on this very important piece of legislation. It shows the determination of the committee in ensuring that we strengthen civilian oversight over the police.


Let me just say one thing. We may blame the police for abusing their powers, but give anybody in society unchecked powers and they will abuse them. What is important is to put in place checks and balances. I can’t say anything more, Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much.


Debate concluded.


Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The DA really wishes this Bill to be passed today, but I would like a ruling from you. I’m very concerned that we may not have a quorum. I really don’t think any of us wants to be party to legislation by stealth. We’ve looked through books, and I can’t work out the ruling. A ruling from the Table would be appreciated, please.


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, we ask that the question stand over until Tuesday.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a suggestion that the question stand over till Tuesday. [Interjections.] I think there is agreement on that.


Decision of question postponed.




Ms J L FUBBS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Members of Parliament, colleagues and South Africans, especially the unemployed, industrialists and many people in the manufacturing sector, the Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap2, is no dream. We believe it is a reality capable of dynamically industrialising South Africa using manufacturing to drive it while generating millions of jobs.


The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry spent many weeks deliberating on Ipap2. It came to the conclusion that it is a radical shift to grow a developmental economy by taking a deliberate decision to ensure that investment targets the production sectors of the economy to arrest the decline in manufacturing and accelerate employment creation.


Within the context of a new growth path, Ipap2 focuses on value-adding sectors with the potential for high employment creation and growth multipliers. Indeed, it identified a number of constraints, among which are the following: exchange rate overvaluation and volatility; high cost of capital; failure to adequately leverage public procurement; monopolistic pricing of key inputs; a low skills base to support industry; aged, unreliable and expensive rail and port systems; and low productivity levels, currently.


The key overarching issues raised during the public hearings were as follows: employment creation; equity challenges; coherence between micro- and macroeconomic policies; and all of the issues that have been identified as constraints.


With regard to employment creation, will Ipap2 create 10 000, 20 000, 50 000 or 60 000 jobs? It will create million of jobs if it is implemented effectively.


The National Union of Metal Workers of South Africa, Numsa, welcomed the government’s break from its neo-liberal economic orthodoxy in that it confronts the structural challenges faced by our economy. Many other stakeholders, in their submissions to the committee, argued — and this went across the board from unions, academics, businesses and industrialists - that no country has developed without a focused and well-resourced industrial policy.


Prof Patrick Bond asserts that the impact of the global financial crisis merely highlighted the existing and inherited contradictions of the neo-liberal macro- and microeconomic policies pursued. In fact Minister Davies, with whom we have a very strong and constructive relationship, acknowledged that the advances of the past 15 years did not bring about structural changes that would absorb the marginally unemployed people into new productive, income-earning activities.


Manufacturing has become the most productive sector, and, as I said, it is manufacturing that Ipap2 is highlighting. It is the biggest contributor of the production sector - 54,3% in 2008. But, it has been varied, and there is a steady decline in productivity and competitiveness. Due to all of those constraints I raised before, manufacturing, especially within the automotive, clothing and textile factory areas, has been identified as the engine of sustainable growth and job creation in developing countries.


In the submissions, we and many other people called for coherence between macro- and microeconomic policies and welcomed the reality that Ipap2 recognises this and that it will ensure that this coherence takes place.


Cosatu and Mr Jennings from the PG Group raised their concerns in respect of a stable and competitive currency. Cosatu called for the devaluation of the currency while Mr Jennings said – he reflected the position of a number of people who were exporting - that the current strong value of the currency threatened the export sector, particularly the automotive component, etc.


Public procurement and industrial financing will be dealt with by hon Radebe.


The committee called on government to significantly recapitalise the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and review its legislation and align it with the objectives of the developmental economy. In fact, as Business Unity South Africa, Busa, pointed out, the way it is currently legislated, it acts like a commercial bank.


The competition policy will be dealt with by hon Radebe, and hon Khumalo will certainly deal with the impact of standards, quality assurance, accreditation and metrology, SQAM, on developmental trade.


I can’t cover all sectoral issues. Hon Radebe will be looking at minerals, iron ore and steel. But we went so far as even to bring in the green and energy-saving industries because there is absolutely no doubt that Ipap2 recognises the scope of the green industry to drive economic development.


The automotive sector itself has been growing. You will see this outside. The localisation content in vehicles that are produced by Volkswagen South Africa began at about 10% to 20%. Today it is reaching more than 70%. But the National Association of Automobile Manufacturers of South Africa, Naamsa, is concerned about the impact of the dispute between Kumba Iron Ore and ArcelorMittal South Africa.


The conclusion of the committee is saying that we will encourage — and we believe that Ipap2 also encourages this — regional dimensions here and promote regional integration. But it is also of the view that the transport system and logical infrastructure must be improved to support Ipap2. Telecommunications will note the shortage of critical skills and the like. Two or three of the key recommendations are that there is an integrative co-operative approach between departments and sectors.


In fact, there is absolutely no doubt that it is essential that the public and private sector work together. Of course, the fact that there was overwhelming support from those who came to the public hearings, ranging from unions to business, industrialists and manufacturists, simply indicates that Ipap2 has been too long in coming.


Of course, there is the issue of black economic empowerment, BEE, which is meant to broaden the base, upstream and downstream. The committee was of the opinion that the current tendency towards elitism and BEE must be surgically removed.

Hon Speaker, I would like to thank all committee members for their active, robust deliberations here. The committee and all of us — opposition parties included — believe that the targeted outcomes that we dealt with and those that we believe Ipap2 generates can be achieved through this implementation. It is no dream. It is an achievable, implementable programme to which the entire Cabinet must give their wholehearted support. It cannot be limited. If it is limited it will cost us our development, and we will not achieve millions of jobs. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mnr S J F MARAIS: Voorsitter, op ’n vraag van my in hierdie Huis aan ’n vorige President is ek verseker dat die regering oor ’n industriële beleid beskik wat enige uitdagings die hoof kan bied. Vandag weet ons dat die Industriële Beleidsaksieplan nie aan die verwagtinge voldoen het nie, en dat die doel met die Industriële Beleidsaksieplan2 is om die tekortkominge en uitdagings aan te spreek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, after I asked a former President a question in this House, I was given the assurance that government has an industrial policy that is able to handle all challenges. Today we know that the Industrial Policy Action Plan has not lived up to expectations and that Ipap2 aims to address the shortcomings and challenges.]


South Africa has lost global market share and was overtaken by Brazil as an important emerging economy over the last 15 years. This has detrimental consequences for us in Africa and in both South-South and North-South trade relations. The inability to attract foreign direct investment, to regain global competitiveness in strategic industries and to create sustainable jobs has become our Achilles heel.


The success of an industrial policy is not dependent on a once-off successful intervention by government, but on applicable and targeted support over a period of time. The main purpose of Ipap2 should be to speed up the process of structural change towards higher production and employment initiatives and to know when to adapt and/or terminate interventions as circumstances change or to rectify outright mistakes.


Ipap2 has identified 13 strategic sectors compared to the current 7. Most of these have shed jobs in 2009 — 870 000 to be specific. It also sets out seven policy objectives. However, there are no cost-benefit analyses or explanations linked to each of the favoured sectors. There are also no quantifiable and measurable objectives explaining the expected cost and impact of each intervention. The impression is that government has decided on the winners and leading sectors, which is contrary to the belief of the DA that successful industrial policies are always market-driven and private sector-led in partnership with government.

The South African economist Jac Laubscher said that “industrial policy should aim at discovering the competitive advantages in the economy in close collaboration with the private sector instead of prescribing what they should be”. Dani Rodrik of Harvard University said that “the real test for an industrial policy is whether governments can let losers go”.


One gets the impression that some of the sectors made the list because they are either fashionable or ideologically attractive while others respond to strong lobbying from vested interests. Global investors are losing confidence in our credibility as an investment destination. The practical implications of the current black economic empowerment policy, as represented by the widely reported ArcelorMittal South Africa-Imperial Crown Trading, AMSA-ICT deal, the constant rumours about nationalisation and state corruption and the effects of the Green Paper on agricultural land ownership have added to negative perceptions.


In instances of successful global industrial policies, a focused and specialised approach was followed together with partnerships between government and big and small enterprises. Ipap2, in our opinion, is targeting too many diverse sectors with no real strategic thrust and targeted financial support in specific sectors to clearly lead the industrialised recovery. It ignores the fact that our strength lies in our diversity and in sectors where we can be champions, as well as the limited financial resources available.

Dit wil voorkom asof geen werklike moeite gedoen is om die strategieë uit te brei om vir spesifiek klein, medium, en mikro-ondernemings, entrepreneurs en koöperasies te voorsien nie, en om te verseker dat die beleide van handel, swart ekonomiese bemagtiging en arbeid proaktief en op ’n holistiese wyse ondersteuning aan industrialisasie en volhoubare belegging bied nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[It seems as if nobody took the trouble to extend the strategies to provide for specific small, medium and micro enterprises, entrepreneurs and co-operatives, and to ensure that the policies of trade, black economic empowerment and labour will provide support to industrialisation and sustainable investment in a proactive and holistic manner.]


Although Ipap2 provides for retail, financial and some service-related activities, its main focus is on growing the manufacturing sector. It is a myth that only mining, agriculture and manufacturing can be regarded as productive sectors. No mention was made of the possibility of utilising the service sector as a lead sector. Experiences in India have shown that service-led sectors’ growth can be sustainable and be a leading economic sector. Today services are the largest sector in the world, accounting for more than 70% of global output, and we are not part of that.


Nie genoeg klem is geplaas op die finansiële sektor wat noodsaaklik is vir ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling nie. Die Suid-Afrikaanse finansiële dienste sektor word hoog geag in die wêreld en is ideaal om dienste te voorsien tussen Afrika en die res van die wêreld. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Not enough emphasis is being placed on the financial sector, which is essential for economic growth and development. The South African financial services sector is held in high esteem around the world and is ideal to provide services between Africa and the rest of the world.]


South Africa has ample raw material, natural resources and low-skilled — mostly unemployed — labour. A key element of Ipap2 seems to be the importance of technological knowledge and capacity for which a highly skilled labour force is needed, which depends very much on an effective education and skills development regime, for which South Africa is not well positioned. Thus, Ipap2 is targeting an ideal labour force and not the one we have.


Other barriers Ipap2 is facing are the lack of foreign direct investments due to unpredictability and low investor confidence, low productivity and weak global competitiveness, a highly regulated but inflexible labour regime, limited availability of project funding, and the poor state of our transport infrastructure.


Ipap2 emphasised the importance of local beneficiation and how this will increase the local content of manufactured products, employment and foreign earnings. However, the reality seems to be different. For example, the Automotive Production and Development Programme is seen to be central to the success of Ipap2. The prevailing criticism is its highly mechanised nature and the very small local content in vehicles assembled, in some cases less than 30%. Companies like Volkswagen South Africa have set a target of 70% local content. However, it does appear that much of the raw material and semi-finished products are still imported and are judged to be 100% local content after some value has been added. Both Naamsa and ArcelorMittal South Africa confirmed that while South Africa has some of the best iron ore in the world, South Africa does not produce flat sheet metal to be used in the manufacturing of vehicle bodies.


Meer klem moet ook geplaas word op waardetoevoeging van Suid-Afrikaanse rou materiaal en om die arbeidsintensiewe voertuigkomponentebedryf as ’n globale kompeterende sektor te ontwikkel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[More emphasis should also be placed on value-adding with regard to South African raw material and developing the labour-intensive motor vehicle components industry as a competitive sector globally.]


Industrial development zones, IDZs, in the past were targeted and designed to drive specific industrial and export sectors. During the visit of our committee to Coega, it became clear that not enough priority and support are being committed to IDZs despite the enormous initial state investments made. The DA believes that export processing and job creation zones can be an effective mechanism that must enjoy targeted behind-the-border incentives. Such zones should be implemented in more rural areas where wage subsidies and tax incentives on profits and to first-time employees should be considered to also contribute to the economic development in those rural areas.


Agro-processing offers opportunities to effectively structure land reform through the utilisation of commercial productive land as well as existing production capacity, knowledge and expertise. This will add to rural development, strengthen the whole agrisector and contribute to food security, second tier agri-industries and their export capacity.


As we have learned from our last interactions with Eskom and the iron, steel, and automotive industries, there are still many stumbling blocks preventing Ipap2 from achieving the intended outcomes. We support the view of the committee with regard to the need for continuous evaluation of appropriate strategic industrial actions plans that will meet the demands of the time and will enjoy the full support and buy-in of government, labour, South African business and foreign direct investors. This will not only contribute to optimal employment and beneficiation in South Africa, but will assure strategic global competitive positioning, sustainability and an open-opportunity environment for all. Ipap2 must be seen as a step towards practical and achievable action plans that will contribute to the actual growing of our economy. The DA will continue to play a constructive role to develop the best options for our needs. I thank you. [Applause.]


Ms C M P KOTSI: Chairperson, Ipap2 stands for Industrial Policy Action Plan 2, which clearly means that there was another one before — Ipap1. Ipap2 is addressing the challenges we experienced in Ipap1.


Any government worldwide is not about the creation of jobs, but is about creating a conducive environment through policies and legislation that would enable the economy of the country to grow so that private companies are able to create massive numbers of jobs for the people.


During our public hearings as the committee, we were able to listen to and interrogate a number of sectors on how they plan to come to the party in as far as Ipap2 is concerned. They really raised some of the challenges they have. Some of the challenges were as follows: the exchange rate overvaluation and volatility; failure to adequately leverage public procurement; monopolistic pricing of key inputs; unreliable, aged rail and post systems; low skills base to support industries; and low productivity.


For this industrialisation plan to work, we need companies like ArcelorMittal South Africa and Kumba Iron Ore to be committed and do so as the nation expects them to do, and not as they wish. It seems that because they are connected in a high office, there’s a free-for-all. Recent reports about ICT getting mineral rights and immediately selling them back to ArcelorMittal constitute proof that only the connected few so-called BEE companies can get the deals.


This government has demonstrated during the World Cup that it has the ability of focus on being timeous and delivering on schedule. It must show that same commitment in arresting the country’s industrial decline. Everyone agrees that labour-intensive industries are the best to assist this country. But that should be put together with what we plan to do as a country in terms of increasing growth. This must not be for personal gain, but for the country as a whole.


We need to look at the clothing industry that has declined at this point in time, especially in the Western Cape. Programmes like the Motor Industry Development Programme, MIDP, that have worked for automobile industries, also need to be looked at.


At the present moment, the country is experiencing a serious political strike. I call this a political strike because many teachers and health workers are complaining that they want to go to work, but Cosatu is threatening them that they shouldn’t. How can Ipap work if Cosatu, which is part of the tripartite alliance, is the instigator? In this case, government has come to the party by addressing the workers’ needs. But Cosatu is not prepared to come to the party because this is not an industrial strike but a political strike.


I think the ANC, within its ranks, should look into sorting this matter out because for Ipap to work and for us as a country to create more jobs, we also need to move. It is very important for the country to look at these things because it is of no use for us to create Ipap when Cosatu is not party to that and when it is creating its own fights within the industry, not about jobs, but about positions they want in the ANC. In this case, they should really be part of the tripartite alliance and not part of another party because they are a part of creating those jobs. [Applause.]


This Ipap is not going to work if Cosatu continues to instigate people who really want to work. Many teachers fear going to work because they are being assaulted. It is not about the fact that they are a part of this. The ANC should bring the tripartite alliance to the party so that we can deliver to the people of this country and make sure that jobs are created. It is only on that basis that we are able to create jobs and not divide this country. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI: Hon Madam Chairperson, Ipap2 represents, as it states, an action plan by the Department of Trade and Industry in attempting to create a platform for the direct and sustainable increase of manufacturing productivity within our country.


We are at an extremely delicate juncture, economically speaking, with fears of a double-dip recession looming and with some economies in the world already showing signs of contraction. A cluster-co-ordinated strategy must therefore be determined and implemented between the various stakeholders and government departments, as well as the industry if South Africa is to avert economic disaster.


The creation of sustainable employment being core to Ipap’s programme must remain strongly within our focus. Unemployment levels which are dangerously high at the moment need to be addressed because of their dire socioeconomic implications, which in themselves are counterproductive to domestic growth.


Mechanisms which attract foreign direct investment into the manufacturing sector and will have the effect of bolstering both employment and productivity must be put in place.


South Africa’s manufacturing competitiveness must be on par globally if we are to sustain the increase we have seen in our manufacturing sector over the past 10 years. Variables such as the very high costs associated with capital and its limited availability in this country, as well as unreliable and costly port, rail and road systems, coupled with very high electricity prices, do not make South Africa as attractive as other developing countries, such as India and Brazil.


The automotive industry has been identified as one of the core focus sectors for the current period. This is a sector which is expected to contribute an extra 150 000 jobs in the next 10 years, and is also a sector which avails lends to increased productivity as only 35% local content is presently used in motor vehicles manufactured in this country. Furthermore in this regard, Ipap2 must be assisted by national skills development in the automotive and other manufacturing industries. Trade schools should be readily available for learners countrywide who want to pursue a career in manufacturing.


In conclusion, the IFP would like to see a co-ordinated approach and the working together of all interested sectors of government in making Ipap2 a great success as herein lies the key to us meeting our future growth path goals. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and members of Parliament, the 2010 January 8 Statement of the ANC identified strategic development priorities which must be attained in 2010. These are speeding up growth and creating more jobs, decent work and sustainable livelihoods. To attain the objectives of creating more jobs, decent work opportunities and sustainable livelihoods, an inclusive economic growth path based on a comprehensive industrial strategy was agreed upon. This inclusive growth path was anchored on the following four programmes: the expenditure of the budgeted R787 billion on improving public infrastructure; tailoring fiscal and monetary measures in a way that complements trade and industry policies; preserving as many jobs as possible; and ensuring that funds meant to assist companies in distress flow to deserving enterprises.


The ANC also noted that the global financial crisis opened up space for a fundamental transformation globally and domestically. It is recognised that the unfettered free-market system does not have the capacity to address the serious social and economic inequalities in the world. The ANC recognises that the state must play an active role in the economy. The state must address the pressing challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality.


During his Budget Speech, the Minister of Finance called for a growth path that envisaged the following key actions: creating youth employment; developing labour-intensive industries; maintaining public and private investment; generating an inclusive economy; striving to achieve low inflation and a stable exchange rate; and increasing productivity and competitiveness and attracting foreign direct investment. All these actions point to a government committed to creating a new industrial policy which deals with issues of equity, poverty and underdevelopment.


During the public hearings, the monopolistic pricing of key inputs in the steel industry was identified and the consequence thereof was quantified. For example, ArcelorMittal always received cheap iron ore from Kumba at cost plus 3%. This exclusive deal was meant to provide cheap steel for domestic consumption. Instead local consumers were slapped with an import parity price, which did not take into consideration that steel is a strategic industry. This led to increased costs for motor, canning and manufacturing industries.


Kumba also undermined the economy by exporting ore instead of processing it so that value-added products could be created. During public hearings, Prof S Roberts and Cosatu were of the view that all monopolistic firms which were involved in uncompetitive behaviour must be dismantled and additional competition enforcements enhanced. The committee is of the view that the Competition Act should be strengthened and capacity should be increased to give greater power to the implementing agency.


Since the ArcelorMittal and Kumba fight is bleeding the economy, we call on the Minister of Trade and Industry to revisit the principles which underpin the privatisation of Iscor, which are to ensure the viability and cost-competitiveness of local steel production and to ensure a competitive steel-pricing regime to support the development and deepening of value-added manufacturing products in downstream industries. The interdepartmental task team of the Ministers of Trade and Industry, Economic Development and Mineral Resources must conclude its work so that the economy can be spared. This is because when two elephants fight it is the grass that suffers.


The other issue that came out during public hearings is the leveraging of public procurement. Both business and organised labour have called for the overhaul of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act and further called that procurements should be used as an instrument of industrialisation. This means that there must be a change from ad hoc procurement practices to fleet-type purchasing arrangements. For example, when Transnet purchases locomotives, it should purchase 50 of them instead of purchasing just five so that it can ensure that the majority of the parts that go into locomotives are locally sourced so as to ensure that more jobs are created in the value chain industries.


Business Unity SA, or Busa, and Cosatu have also called for the alignment of the National Treasury regulations with the broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE codes. Since the current BBBEE legislation does not have industrialisation and the creation of employment as its primary objectives, this legislation should be subordinated to the imperatives of industrial policy. This demands a legislative change.


The other challenge identified during the public hearings is the issue of high costs and limited allocation of capital. The lack of private capital investment within production sectors of the economy was highlighted in Ipap2. The acknowledgement that the cost of capital is high relative to our trading partners requires an approach that will allow government to be a catalyst to unblock financial impediments to growth and employment creation. This means that development finance institutions should promote a developmental agenda and not be as risk-averse as commercial banks. The development finance institutions must be able to provide financing at rates below the market. This means that institutions like the IDC should be regularly recapitalised so that they can attain their developmental mandate on a larger scale. This also calls for changes in the legislative framework of the IDC.


One of the fundamental problems which undermine our industrial policy and economic growth is the volatility and the overvaluation of the exchange rate. Dr E Wessels is of the view that a strong currency is not necessary to reduce the cost of imported capital goods in developing countries. He also stated that the inflationary consequence of depreciation has been exaggerated because the overall impact on the economy is determined by the ratio of nontradable prices to tradable prices.


The National Treasury is of the view that the exchange rate must depreciate in the long term and still advocates the reduction of dissaving and the inflation-targeting framework. The SA Reserve Bank is in favour of the gradual accumulation of foreign reserves and the facilitation of the development of hedging instruments which will assist in smoothing excessive rand volatility over suitable timeframes.


The committee is of the view that issues of volatility of the exchange rate, the interest rate and its impact on manufacturing should be addressed at the highest level of government. This high-level government engagement must be followed by a national indaba to promote the objectives of Ipap so as to secure increased participation by all stakeholders, for example all spheres of government, organised business and labour, civil society and academics.


Resources needed to fund Ipap2, like the R20 billion incentives made available by the Treasury over five years, must be used together with other funds, amounting to R787 billion spent on infrastructure.


The ANC has called upon the people of South Africa to work together to fight poverty and underdevelopment. Ipap2 calls upon us to put aside our political differences and work together as a cohesive force as we did during the Fifa World Cup. Hon Minister, President Zuma said during the national executive committee lekgotla:


The defining feature of this administration will be that it is a government that knows where the people live, which knows what the people think, and which acts fast on the issues they raise.


Hon Minister, the tribe has spoken. Let the chief’s administration act accordingly. Thank you. [Applause.]


Adv A D ALBERTS: Chairperson, the committee report is a result of a committee — irrespective of party political affiliation — that has sensed the urgency of addressing the challenge of growing the economy in a manner that will lead to sustainable employment creation. The report reflects a pragmatic approach to tackling this challenge by supporting the use of industrialisation as a tool and leverage for growth.


Daar bestaan ernstige strukturele gebreke in ons land se ekonomie wat uitgewys is deur die afgelope paar jaar se werklose ekonomiese groei, waar die nuwe rykdom nie omgesit is in genoegsame werkskepping nie. Hierdie verslag probeer hierdie gebreke aanspreek deur erkenning te gee aan die behoefte vir ’n geïntegreerde en sistemiese benadering tot ekonomiese groei en werkskepping. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Economic growth without increased job opportunities during the past few years has brought to light serious structural deficiencies in our country’s economy, where the new wealth has not been converted into adequate job creation. This report attempts to address these shortcomings by acknowledging the need for an integrated and systemic approach to economic growth and job creation.]


It is enlightening to note that this committee has adopted an approach of “South Africa first” when it comes to responses to macroeconomic matters like trade, thereby seeking policy space within the international trade instruments which this country can use to achieve its economic goals without flouting international laws.


This committee, together with the DTI and other agencies concerned with the country’s economic growth, must continuously investigate industrial and service opportunities as they appear on the horizon for investment and development. We live in a global environment where the innovation cycle is increasing at an unprecedented rate and information flow is deepening. Therefore, our ability to scan for opportunities and our ability to exercise expert choices must also be enhanced.


In order to unlock further value, we must release the labour market from restraints like affirmative action, arrest crony-based capitalism, stop cadre deployment and pursue an open and inclusive market, amongst others.


Die VF Plus ondersteun die idee van ’n vaardigheidsoudit ten einde ’n register daar te stel vir gebruik waar tekorte in die arbeidsmag bestaan, solank die werking daarvan in samewerking met die arbeidsmakelaarsbedryf plaasvind. Hierdeur kan ons weer geleenthede gee aan vaardige persone wat as gevolg van regstellende aksie nie geleenthede sou gehad het nie, maar ook sorg dat nuwe vaardighede gekweek word, waar leemtes bestaan soos blyk uit die oudit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[The FF Plus supports the notion of a skills audit in order to establish a register that could be used wherever shortages in the labour force exist, as long as it is implemented in co-operation with the labour broking industry. Through this we can once again afford skilled people opportunities they would not have had because of affirmative action, but also ensure that new skills are nurtured where there are deficiencies as revealed in the audit.]


If we can ensure co-ordination among all the role-players in the economic matrix, we will be able to ensure that the tide comes in to lift all the boats in the harbour. Then we must remember to untie the currently disadvantaged boats so that they too can sail into the sunset and prosperity.


Ms F E KHUMALO: Chairperson, the major cause of unemployment is a structural distortion of the economy which favours capital-intensive industries due to the monetary and industrial policies of the apartheid years. An economy that grows without creating sustainable employment opportunities for the majority of her citizens is not sustainable. An economy that relies on exporting raw materials without beneficiation is also not sustainable. The question is: What does this Ipap seek to achieve? Who are the intended beneficiaries? What distortions does it want to rectify? How does it achieve a balance between the primary and secondary sectors of the economy?


Ipap2 has been welcomed by business and labour as well as other stakeholders to bring structural changes through skills upgrading, agroprocessing and standards, quality assurance, accreditation and metrology, SQAM. Ipap2 recognises the critical need for skills upgrading to reach sustainable industrialisation, and it has listed a number of areas where specific skills development is required, namely: SQAM; standards writers; laboratory personnel and compulsory specification practitioners; metal fabrication and tooling industry skills; solar water heating; forestry, timber, paper and pulp furniture; business management; and efficiency skills for new forest growers and beneficiaries of land reform.


Ipap2 includes a number of interventions that focus on development plans relevant to certain sectors and improving such facilities. In terms of the advanced manufacturing sector, one of the interventions is to revive and upgrade existing training centres at state-owned enterprises and reduce bottlenecks of up to 18 months at testing facilities. This should assist in addressing the five-year gap with regard to 14 500 scientists, engineers and other technical skills.


A coherent and integrated skills development strategy must be developed and implemented to ensure that institutions of higher education appropriately align their academic programmes to meet the skills demanded by the industry. Government should ensure that institutions and sector education and training authorities, Setas, are adequately funded. Furthermore, they should partner with business to develop relevant on-the-job training experiences for the unemployed and for the youth to improve their employment possibilities and to promote continued learning for their existing employees.


Agroprocessing is an identified intervention sector that will contribute to rural development. The key reason for this is that the sector mainly uses primary agricultural products as an input. Some parts of this sector, such as packaging, are often situated in or near rural areas where the agricultural products are grown.


Agroprocessing also feeds into a number of downstream industries such as wholesale outlets, retail chains, restaurants, pubs, shebeens and fast-food franchises, as well as the hotel industry. Therefore, the prevalence of agroprocessing has a huge impact on both direct and indirect jobs as well as on food security because it comprises a highly diverse group of subsectors and industries, namely food processing, beverages, aquaculture, horticulture, medicines, aromatics and flavourings. The following subsectors have also been identified to focus on: the aquaculture and organic food sector, small-scale maize milling, fruit and vegetable canning and rooibos and honeybush products.


Small and medium enterprises and co-operatives should be direct beneficiaries of the agroprocessing sector development. However, the following issues are critical to ensure that they reap the benefits of such development: access to affordable financial support for capital and operating expenses; access to markets; knowledge of supply and demand; affordability of telecommunications; reliability of transport; and skills development support.


SQAM institutions are reliable institutions that ensure the integrity of new manufacturing industries and existing manufacturing industries. The SQAM institutions ensure that South Africa’s standards are adhered to and that the market is not subjected to poor quality and cheap imports. They provide protection to consumers by ensuring the quality and safety of products, including with regard to health and environmental aspects, and ensure that they themselves are recognised domestically and internationally. Therefore, certified products are accepted.


Through the process of achieving international quality assurance standards, the development of the small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, and co-operatives can be stimulated, which could lead to an increased demand for their products by larger enterprises that must meet standards and promote preferential procurement. The cost of being assessed for certification is a concern. The government should consider the cost implications for SMMEs and co-operatives and provide support to assist their development. Furthermore, standardisation with the SADC region can promote regional integration and broaden markets for South Africa.


For Ipap2 to be a success, the government should develop the necessary technical and managerial capacity in the fields of economics, accounting, engineering and, in general, management science. I thank you. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Malungu ahloniphekile, besicela ukuthi nithi ukwehlisa umsindo kancane. [Hon members, we request you to lower the noise levels.]


Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the DA believes that the protection and creation of jobs should be an important part of the national agenda. We need to see all spheres of government working towards this goal. The revised Ipap is one department’s response to this challenge.


But – and here we share the sentiments of the hon Kotsi from Cope – in an open opportunity society, the responsibility for industrial growth is not only the responsibility of government. In an open opportunity society, government should create an environment in which the private sector will be able to drive that economic growth.


South Africa has lost much of its industrial capacity over the last few years. The recession and the enormous number of jobs that have been lost have highlighted the fragile nature of the South African economy, and the hon Alberts of FF Plus has just referred to that. The good news is that every recession, by its very definition, is followed by a period of economic growth. The DA believes that it is of the utmost importance for government to make the structural changes needed by the economy now. This is needed so that we can avoid the constraints that hampered the economy during the last economic upswing.


The sad reality is that we have lost much of our skills base, including the ability to train sufficient numbers of artisans and others with the skills needed by a modern, growing, knowledge-based economy. The subperformance of the Setas is contributing to the current skills deficit. Government should also invest much more in infrastructure.


Parliament has dealt extensively with the negative effects of our failure to invest in power plants in good time. But there are other examples as well — examples such as our transport system, especially the railways and the harbours, that has not seen the capital investment needed to support long-term growth in industrial activity. Major developments are too often turned down or delayed, even at the local government level, due to capacity constraints pertaining to water, sewerage or road infrastructure.


Also, the way in which black economic empowerment is undertaken does little to instil investor confidence. This was recently illustrated by the alleged mistakes made in the awarding of mining rights to Imperial Crown Trading. It was clear from the oversight visits by the committee that government’s support, both in finance and in the advice given to small entrepreneurs, leaves much to be desired.


Many industrial development zones remain underdeveloped areas due to the lack of incentive schemes. We therefore welcome the tax incentives that we have learned of earlier today – incentives to the value of R20 billion over the next five years. A DA-run administration would improve the ability of government to create those opportunities that mark a truly open opportunity society. I thank you. [Applause.]


Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, this Parliament is really quite a strange place. You know, when we are in the portfolio committee, we all agree on almost everything. And then we come into plenary and suddenly we find major differences. For that reason, I want to talk ideology, and I hope that the hon leader of the DA will forgive me if I talk ideology.

You see, we are told by the hon Marais that successful industrialisation is always market driven – I hope I got that quote right because that’s the note I took. And then the hon Kotsi said that it’s the private companies that create jobs, and then she went on to attack Cosatu in a way that we have not heard for many years. I think even under apartheid, people didn’t attack the trade unions quite so vigorously!


So, what is this ideology that we are talking about? Suddenly it is the private sector that is going to do the job. Let me tell you about the private sector in South Africa. Firstly, the Business Report reported on 30 July 2010 on the ease of doing business. It reported that South Africa has a better ease of doing business than Argentina, Brazil, Chile and China. South Africa scored higher ... [Interjections.]


Mr S B FARROW: Where’s the ideology?


Prof B TUROK: The ideology is that this government and this country are very friendly to business, right? But — and here comes the but — the exports of South Africa with regard to industrial output are much lower than the countries I mentioned. So, the ease of doing business is high, but the consequences are low.


Secondly, Wits University reported in Business Day on 10 August 2010 that in 2007, R450 billion of South African wealth went abroad. This is the private sector. It is not the state that sends the money overseas.


Thirdly, Business Day of 19 August 2010 reported that in 2008, South Africa imported R5 billion worth of machine tools. Now, if you say to me that the private sector is the sole solution or even the main solution, I’m afraid I have to disillusion you because a few months ago Prof Ha-Joon Chang of Cambridge University — he is a South Korean and an expert on the East Asian tigers — came to Parliament — right here — and gave a talk in the Old Assembly. I can do no better than to summarise what he had to say.


The advice he gave us is that we need a fundamental transformation of the productive sector of South Africa — Ipap. Exactly! He didn’t know about Ipap. But he said “fundamental transformation of the productive sector”, which, of course, includes the private sector.


Then, he said that the enormous success of East Asia was due to the following: one, aggressive state intervention; two, the directing of investment to particular sectors in which the state also helps to direct; and three, trade protection, subsidies, regulation and state ownership. Those were the policies which brought unprecedented growth to South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, etc.


So you see, the private sector ... [Interjections.] Yes, of course, we are all for the private sector. By the way, in the portfolio committee hearings, the private sector didn’t talk the language of the DA and Cope. On the contrary, they were totally in favour of Ipap and they were totally in favour of strong state intervention because without strong state intervention, the private sector does not push the way it should.


Between 1950 and 1980, South Korea experienced 6% growth over the whole period. The result was that income doubled every 12 years. The result of that — listen carefully — was that in 1961, per capita income in South Korea was $80 per head.


Mr I M OLLIS: Tell us about North Korea.


Prof B TUROK: I will tell you about North Korea tomorrow. [Laughter.]


So, per capita income was US$80 per head in 1961. Today it is US$28 000 per head in South Korea. That’s the result, and it is the result of the same policies that are in South Africa. [Interjections.]


Listen quietly because you were around during that period.


In South Africa in 1961, our income per capita was US$400, and it is now US$3 000 per capita. In South Korea it is US$28 000 per capita. So, who has done better? South Korea has shown the way for us to follow. Indeed, Ipap is built very much on the kind of interventions that South Korea accepted.


We talk about the developmental state. We don’t talk much about the private sector, but now, in the ANC, we talk about a developmental state. What is this? South Korea adopted the policies of a developmental state, which meant planning, co-ordination and sectoral industrial policies. Peculiarly, France has done the same. Scandinavian countries have done the same. What they did is what Ipap is doing — identifying strategic industries, technology, research and development, and upgrading where necessary.


The state does the planning and co-ordination, and the private sector implements. And you are quite right. The state creates the environment — I think you said the same thing. But you see, it is neither a capitalist state nor a business state. It is a developmental state that provides that environment. That’s essential.


The other thing they did was implement protectionism. The United States was the most protectionist country in the world in the last century. They had very high tariffs, and they grew behind the tariffs. Why can’t we, in a modest way, also apply protectionism?


Prof Ha-Joon Chang told us that South Africa has a strong base. We have the IDC, the Development Bank of SA, or DBSA, and state-owned enterprises. He also said, DA, that we have a strong political base as well. The ANC is a strong party. You see, you need a strong ruling party in order to rule and to rule effectively. Ipap is actually based on a strong ruling party, and that’s what is sitting over here. Prof Chang said to us that we can do the job.


Finally, he talked about human capability. You know, very often Harvard professors and so on tell us that our capability is low. Let me tell you what Prof Chang said. He said that at the beginning of industrialisation in East Asia, their human capital base was lower than that of South Africa, and now it is much higher. So, you see, South Korea’s level of literacy in the forties was lower than that of South Africa during the same time. But today they have massive engineering and massive technological human capability. The lesson in all this is that we must put Ipap in place. We must do all the necessary things, and we need a good developmental state to do it. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I would like to start by thanking all those members who made, mostly, constructive and thoughtful contributions during this debate. I would also like to appreciate the work of the portfolio committee, under the chairpersonship of Joan Fubbs, for organising public hearings and finalising a comprehensive and excellent report, which succinctly captures most of the salient points made by no less than 38 stakeholders of a very, very high calibre during the course of those hearings.


The parliamentary hearings and the report itself have confirmed something that we ourselves have discovered in ongoing, extensive consultations with key stakeholders, both in business and in labour — that there is overwhelming support in this country for the objectives, analysis, diagnosis and direction of the policy proposals included in Ipap2.


As we have said repeatedly, we regard Ipap as a rolling action plan and a living document. Through ongoing consultations and engagements, we plan to amend and improve our Ipaps in the process —as we describe it — of learning by doing.


Ipap is one of the platforms of the new economic growth path which is designed to place us on a qualitatively new, more labour-absorbing growth path. Ipap is rooted in the perspective which argues that we need to make structural changes in the trajectory of accumulation if we are to reduce the unacceptably high levels of unemployment in this country, and with them poverty and inequality.


Ipap identifies a number of constraints which have led to a situation in which the productive sectors of our economy have grown at only about half the pace of consumption-driven sectors. It proposes a number of ways to address these constraints.

We have to work for the success of these policies and programmes against the backdrop of a considerable external shock, whose impact on the industrial sector and on jobs continues to be severe.


The global economic climate is characterised by great uncertainty. Although it appears right now that the world economy is moving out of recession, the extent and the nature of the recovery is uncertain and fragile, at best, with growth in the developed world expected to be, at best, sluggish for many years to come.


This context of uncertainty and oppressed trading conditions for us with our established trading partners in the developed world, in our view, requires that we do things differently. It makes it even more imperative that the policy perspectives and tasks set out in Ipap are implemented.


Frankly I’ve heard nothing today ... and I think I’ll have to make allowances for the fact that people say something different in the portfolio committee from what they say up here. There is an element of grandstanding when they come to this podium. But I think I have heard nothing that suggests that there is any coherent or credible alternative to the strategy which we are proposing.


Further than that — and I want to build on a point that was made by the hon Turok – the lesson from the experience of those developing countries that have performed more successfully during the crisis and which have now emerged as major new poles of economic power and major new forces of dynamism in the world economy, countries like China, India and Brazil, is that all of them, without exception, had active state-led industrial policies which sought to identify, support and nurture key value-added production sectors. In fact, the experience of economies like India, China and Brazil has merely echoed that of every other country at any time in economic history which succeeded in placing itself on a new growth path characterised by increasing as opposed to diminishing returns to scale.


I want to quote from a recent book called Industrial Policy and Development By Mario Cimoli, Giovanni Dosi and Joseph Stiglitz, which says:


All the countries which are nowadays developed undertook indeed relatively high degrees of intervention to support the accumulation of technological capabilities and the transformation of their organisation of production, especially in the early period of industrialisation.


Ipap is indeed based on and draws precisely lessons and learnings from key developing countries which have now emerged as powerful forces in the world economy.


In response to the hon Marais, I want to say that the choice of 13 sectors in Ipap is not the product of some thumb-suck by government. Rather, it is the product of an exercise of self-discovery and continuous engagement with key stakeholders. The fact that we have chosen 13 subsectors is a reflection of the diversity of the existing industrial base. At the same time, the hon Marais appears to have forgotten that there are in fact three identified focus areas. The first of these are metals fabrication, capital goods and transport equipment industries, which we say need to grow and development fundamentally on the back of the infrastructure investment programmes that we will be undertaking in this country. The second focus area is green industries, and the third is precisely one of the ones he mentioned — agroprocessing.


It is also not true that Ipap ignored service sectors. Some high-value service sectors like tourism and business process outsourcing, BPO, are actually part of Ipap. But the bigger picture is that the growth path strategy, which is being developed by my colleague, Minister Ebrahim Patel, will deal with this much more comprehensively because the domain of Ipap is in fact value-added sectors. I would argue that, again, the experience of economic history is that the quality and income-generating capacity of service sectors are much stronger when they are rooted in an economy which has growing and expanding productive sectors than when they are rooted in an economy which does not.


I would contend that the debate on the desirability of Ipap is now completed with the adoption of this report. The task now is to move towards implementation and the task of rallying important forces behind this particular programme. As the DTI, we are now firmly in implementation mode. In fact, we are committed to presenting a six-monthly implementation report, and that report will have to refer to the period of implementation up to the end of this particular month. We are now two quarters into the implementation of Ipap.


I want to just say that the report which we will be presenting to both Cabinet and Parliament, according to the commitments which we made, will reflect in detail on all the different action plans which have been identified in Ipap. As a sort of preview, I can say that, broadly speaking, most of the work which we have identified that we need to do in these two quarters is being done and is on track. There are very few exceptions. Although I must say that if there are any exceptions, I am not happy with that because I think we need to keep the pressure up to make sure that all the work is done when it needs to be done.


There are a couple of issues that were raised by hon members in the debate that I would just want to refer to. A number of people spoke about the issue of procurement. Indeed procurement was a major, major issue in Ipap itself. I am pleased to be able to report that a joint task team from National Treasury, the Department of Economic Development and the Department of Trade and Industry has reached an agreement on the set of proposed amendments to the regulations of the Public Preferential Procurement Finance Act. These proposals, which are fully compatible with World Trade Organisation, WTO, rules, we believe will considerably scale up our ability to use state procurement as a mechanism to generate and support local manufacturing.


When these proposals are implemented, subject to Cabinet approval, we believe that this will signal the first phase in a broader comprehensive review of state procurement which will address a number of the issues raised by the committee in the report, including the potential of co-ordinated procurement processes at the level of metro municipalities.


As the committee noted in its report, there are a number of positive examples that show what is possible. The eThekwini Municipality’s procurement of public transport equipment is exemplary. They achieved 98% local procurement, and it showed what can be achieved when the will is there.


The reason for the display of the exhibition which we are having outside in the private sector of the Volkswagen Polo, is that the local content of that particular vehicle has gone up from 39% to 74%, which is an objective we have set in the automotive programme. [Applause.]


We are proposing that the accreditation for local procurement be undertaken by Proudly South African, which will give that campaign a major boost. We believe that all of this will assist us in moving towards getting a higher proportion of local production from the investments which we are making in infrastructure.


A number of members referred to the issue of ArcelorMittal and Kumba. Let me just say a couple of words on this, although this is not central to this particular report. Let me just say that the unbundling of Iscor in 2001 involved what we are convinced are two public and developmental obligations. The first of these was that the company that received the licence to mine iron ore incision would have to make a proportion — and indeed it was a rather modest proportion — available at cost plus 3% to support local steel production.


The second public and developmental obligation was that the beneficiary or the recipient of that concessional iron ore would have an obligation to pass this on in the form of a competitive steel price that would support downstream manufacture. I think that recent events and the differences between the two companies that have benefited from this arrangement show that there was a weakness in that those public service obligations were embedded in contracts between two private companies.


As is known, the Department of Trade and Industry together with the Department of Economic Development and the Department of Mineral Resources has established a task force which has, as its objective, to ensure that we identify all the levers in government to make sure that those particular objectives are restored.


Make no mistake, it is essential for the success of Ipap that we have in place competitively priced steel available for downstream manufacture.


I don’t have any time to go through the large number of other individual recommendations made in this excellent report. Suffice to say that we are prepared in the committee to go through each of them in detail and that we will be reporting, as I said earlier, through the six-monthly report, both to Cabinet and to Parliament.


As far as implementation is concerned, we also believe that the new system of monitoring and evaluation in government, with the different new structures in place — implementation structures and so on - offers us a mechanism whereby all the different contributions coming from all the different parts of government to make Ipap a success can be monitored and be evaluated.


In implementing this important industrial policy initiative, we know that there are no easy victories. We will continue to signal that we are going to be honest and very serious about what we are doing. We call upon all South Africans to do, in this area, what we succeeded in doing in the World Cup — making it a major success.


Let us then work together to make our industrial policy a success. Let us work together to grow the economy and to fight the scourge of unemployment. I trust that the House will adopt the excellent report on the hearings on industrial policy by the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Debate concluded.




That the report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.


The House adjourned at 17:29.







National Assembly


The Speaker

1.         Membership of Assembly


(1) The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the passing away of Dr M Tshabalala-Msimang, has been filled with effect from 19 August 2010 by the nomination of Mr J D Thibedi. Ms E R Maputha, who was initially nominated to fill the vacancy, is unavailable.


2.         Submission of Private Member’s Legislative Proposal


(1)        The following private member’s legislative proposal was submitted to the Speaker on 1 September 2010 in accordance with Rule 234:


(a)        Legislative proposal to regulate business interests of State employees (Mr I O Davidson)


Referred to the Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions for consideration and report.


3.         Tabling of Public Protector Report No 1 of 2008‑09 and of response of Minister of Health thereto


(1) Correspondence dated 9 November 2009 was received from the Minister of Health in response to recommendations in Public Protector Report No 1 of 2008‑09, a report on an investigation conducted in terms of section 182(1)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, and section 8(1) of the Public Protector Act, 1994 (Act No 23 of 1994) and submitted to the 3rd Parliament for consideration. As the report was not tabled at the time, both the report and the related correspondence are hereby tabled.


Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health and the Portfolio Committee on Mining for consideration.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


1. The Speaker and the Chairperson


(a)        Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and Fiscal Commission (FFC) for 2009-2010, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2009-2010 [RP 73-2010].


(b)        Report and Financial Statements of the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) for 2009-2010, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2009-2010 [RP 220-2010].


2. The Minister of Basic Education


(a)        Report and Financial Statements of Vote 13 – Department of Education for 2009-2010, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 13 for 2009-2010 [RP 93-2010].

3. The Minister of Higher Education and Training


(a)        Report and Financial Statements of Vote 13 – Department of Education for 2009-2010, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 13 for 2009-2010 [RP 93-2010].


National Assembly


1.         The Speaker


(a)        Reply from the Minister of Transport to recommendations in Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on Strategic Plan and Budget of Department of Transport and its Entities, as adopted by the House on 11 May 2010.


    Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport.




National Assembly


1. Report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the Voluntary Disclosure Programme and Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B29-2010] (National Assembly- section 75), dated 31 August 2010.


The Standing Committee on Finance, having considered and examined the Voluntary Disclosure Programme and Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 29– 2010] (National Assembly – section 75), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendments.


Report to be considered.


2. Report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B28-2010] (National Assembly- section 77), dated 31 August 2010.


The Standing Committee on Finance, having considered and examined the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 28– 2010] (National Assembly – section 77), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Money Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.


Report to be considered.


3. Fourth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Department of Labour, dated 24 August 2010




The Standing Committee on Public Accounts (the Committee), heard evidence on and considered the contents of the Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Department of Labour (the Department). The Committee noted the qualified audit opinion, highlighted areas which required urgent attention of the Accounting Officer, and reports as follows:


1. Capital Assets


The Auditor-General reported that the Department established an Asset Management Unit in March 2008 to address the deficiencies identified and reported in the prior year‘s audit report.  However, the audit still revealed, amongst others, the following significant shortcomings in the management and control of assets and the asset register.

a) A number of assets on the asset register were included at incorrect values.

b) The asset register was not adequately maintained in accordance with the requirements of National Treasury Regulations.

c) The reconciliation of the prior year balance as disclosed in the financial statements with the asset registers for the financial years ending 31 March 2007 and 2008 is still outstanding.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) The Department employs professionally skilled personnel and that ongoing monitoring and supervision are undertaken to enable management to determine whether controls are present and functioning;

b) Personnel are provided with in-service training;

c) Adequate controls are designed and implemented to ensure that a complete and accurate fixed asset register is maintained and updated on a regular basis;

d) Disciplinary action is taken against underperforming staff ;

e) Monthly reconciliations are performed  as prescribed; and

f) Shortages or losses that were incurred due to an inadequate asset register are identified and reported on.


2.         Governance Issues


The Auditor-General reported the following:


a) The Audit Committee met seven times during the year under review and carried out its  functions as required in Section 77 of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

b) The operations of the internal audit function established as required in Section 77 of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 were limited due to staff vacancies. As a result, they were unable to carry out all their audits in terms of their annual plan.   


The Committee is concerned about the lack of stability at senior management level where personnel have been in acting positions for an extensive period. The Department experiences vacancy levels in excess of 10% in all of the programmes and acknowledges that this is a major impediment to service delivery.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) The Department’s Audit Committee takes corrective action with regard to internal control   deficiencies;

b) Personnel with adequate skills are employed;

c)         The head of human resources and senior management fills vacant posts urgently;

d)         Disciplinary action is taken against management and staff who fail to perform their duties as required; and

e)         Management implements a performance management system where staff performance is evaluated against specific key performance areas to enable management to take appropriate steps based on agreed deliverables.


3.         Non-compliance with Laws and Regulations

The Auditor-General reported the following:

a) The Department did not maintain an effective, efficient and transparent system of financial and risk management and internal control, as transfer payments were made to entities without service level agreements in place.

b) The Department did not have an approved Fraud Prevention Plan.

c) The Accounting Officer did not take reasonable steps to recover debt before debts owed to the State were written off as irrecoverable debts. 

d) Regular assessment of supply chain management performance to identify whether the system is functioning effectively was not performed.

e) The performance contract of the chief financial officer was not signed by the relevant officials.

f) Lack of approved controls to verify the accuracy and completeness of levies, interest and penalties transferred to the sector education and training authorities (SETAs) and National Skills Fund as is required by practice note 1 of 2008 issued in terms of the Skills Development Act (No. 97 of 1998).


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) Control activities are identified and developed with consideration of their cost and their potential effectiveness in mitigating risks;

b) Management establishes, documents and implements a fraud prevention plan;

c) Management maintains an effective risk management policy which continuously evaluates and updates the financial management and internal control risks;

d) Reasonable steps are taken to recover debts before they are written off and further steps are taken to recover debts from the individuals responsible;

e) Criminal charges are laid against individuals who have committed financial misconduct;

f) Internal control deficiencies are identified and communicated in a timely manner to those responsible for taking corrective action;

g) An effective and well capacitated internal audit division is established;

h) Management implements regular assessments of supply chain performance to ensure that deficiencies are corrected;

i) The entity addresses areas of responsibility and establishes lines of reporting in order to support effective internal control over financial reporting; and

j) Effective policies and procedures in relation to financial reporting are established and communicated.


4.         Conclusion


The Committee further recommends that the Executive Authority submits a progress report on the implementation of all the above recommendations to the National Assembly within 60 days of the adoption of this report by the House.


Report to be considered.

4. Sixth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Council for the Built Environment, dated 24 August 2010




The Standing Committee on Public Accounts (the Committee), heard evidence on and considered the contents of the Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Council for the Built Environment. The Committee noted the disclaimed audit opinion, highlighted areas which required urgent attention of the Accounting Authority, and reports as follows:


1.         Governance Issues


The Auditor-General reported that:

The Internal Audit function was outsourced to Pricewaterhouse Coopers during the 2008/09 year and has subsequently been outsourced to SEMA Integrated Risk Solutions.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

The Audit Committee oversees controls to enable the organisation to have sufficient and trained employees to fulfil these functions in-house.


2. Irregular, Fruitless and Wasteful Expenditure


The Auditor-General reported the following:

a) Penalties and interest amounting to R11 239 were incurred during the 2008/09 financial year due to the late payment of taxes to the South African Revenue Service (SARS).  A further penalty of R139 792 was levied by SARS after year-end in respect of the late submission of the IRP5 reconciliation.

b) Further, during the 2008/09 year, a settlement amount was obtained from a finance company and paid over to settle outstanding amounts due in accordance with a lease agreement in respect of a photocopier. The total of the remaining lease payments amounted to R48 061 and the total of the settlement payments amounted to R55 883.  The difference of R7 822 is expenditure that could have been avoided had reasonable care been taken and therefore constitutes fruitless and wasteful expenditure.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) Strict rules and regulations are implemented to prevent irregularities and that disciplinary steps are taken against those who do not follow recognised prescripts;

b) The effectiveness of internal control is strictly monitored and supervised;

c) Internal control deficiencies are identified and communicated timely; and

d) Corrective action against employees who fail to perform their duties is taken.


3. Trade Receivables


The Auditor-General reported that:

Sufficient appropriate audit evidence could not be obtained to confirm membership   fee income and trade receivables contained in the comparatives; and trade receivable balances in the current year.

The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

Proper processes are implemented to ensure accuracy, occurrence and completeness of calculations and income received by the entity.


4. Non-compliance with matters affecting the entity


The Auditor-General reported the following:

a) Significant difficulties during the audit concerning delays or non-availability of requested information;

b) Deficiencies in design and implementation of internal controls in respect of financial and risk management and compliance with applicable laws and regulations and information systems not appropriate to facilitate preparation of financial statements;

c) Prior year audit findings not substantially addressed;

d) Late submission of strategic plan and budget; and

e) Inadequate reporting on perfomance indicators.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) An environment where senior leadership ensures proper monitoring and oversight is created;

b) There is effective monitoring of basic controls, processes and reconciliations throughout the year; and

c) Controls in respect of deficiencies in risk management and compliance with laws and regulations are designed and implemented.


5. Conclusion


The Committee further recommends that the Executive Authority submits a progress report on the implementation of all the above recommendations to the National Assembly within 60 days of the adoption of this report by the House.


Report to be considered.


6. Seventh Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Boxing South Africa, dated 24 August 2010


The Standing Committee on Public Accounts (the Committee) heard evidence on and considered the contents of the Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of Boxing South Africa (BSA). The Committee noted the qualified audit opinion, highlighted areas which required urgent attention of the Accounting Authority, and reports as follows:


1. Operating Expenditure


The Auditor-General reported the following:

a) BSA could not provide sufficient and appropriate audit evidence for operating expenditure amounting to R346 239.000;

b) Information that was considered necessary for determining the accuracy, completeness and occurrence of operating expenditure was not obtained; and

c) The entity’s records did not permit the application of alternative audit procedures.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Authority ensures that:

a) Measures are in place to ensure that supporting documents are safeguarded and properly filed after they are processed for reference for audit purposes;

b) Requisition for payments are verified and approved before payments are made; and

c) Disciplinary action is taken against officials who fail to comply with the measures to safeguard records in accordance with PFMA


2. Going Concern


The Auditor-General identified that:

BSA incurred a net loss of R4 327 497 during the year ended 31 March 2009 and total liabilities exceeded its total assets by R5 951 045.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Authority ensures that:

Risks relating to the status of BSA as a going concern are be identified,  analysed, and addressed as a matter of urgency.


3. Fruitless and wasteful expenditure


The Auditor-General identified the following:

Fruitless and wasteful expenditure to the amount of R1 313 226 was incurred as the entity failed to comply with its internal policies and procedures regarding dismissals and did not pay its value-added tax and pay-as-you-earn on time which resulted in interest and penalties being incurred.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

Competent individuals are appointed to ensure proper financial reporting and adherence to policies and procedures.


4. Non-Compliance with applicable laws and regulations


The Auditor-General reported the following:

a)         Quarterly reports to the executive authority were not submitted within 30 days of the end of each quarter as required by Section 26.1 of the Treasury Regulations.

b)         Evidence that the budget and the strategic plan were submitted to the executive authority as required by Section 53(1) of the Public Finance Management Act and Section 30.1.1 of the Treasury Regulations, could not be provided for audit purposes.


c)         BSA has budgeted for a deficit without obtaining prior written approval from National Treasury as required by Section 53(3) of the PFMA.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

(a) Proper steps are taken to ensure that Boxing South Africa complies with applicable regulations;

(b) An action is developed, implemented  and monitored to address these audit findings; and

(c) Quarterly reports are submitted to relevant authorities on time.


5. Conclusion


The Department of Sport and Recreation should urgently address the institutional capacity and funding constraints of BSA to ensure its organizational viability. Arising from the hearing, the Committee believes that BSA should ensure the appointment of competent staff in order to execute its mandate successfully.


The Committee further recommends that the Accounting Officer should submit a progress report on the implementation of all the above recommendations to the National Assembly within 60 days after the adoption of this report by the House.


Report to be considered


6. Eighth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Department of Correctional Services, dated 24 August 2010


The Standing Committee on Public Accounts (the Committee) heard evidence on and considered the contents of the Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the 2008/09 financial statements of the Department of Correctional Services (the Department). The Committee noted the qualified audit opinion, highlighted areas which required the urgent attention of the Accounting Officer, and reports as follows:


1. Internal Controls


The Auditor-General reported the following:


1.1        On the Audit Committee

a) The Audit Committee has not fulfilled its responsibilities for the year as set out in Section 77 of the Public Finance Management Act (No.1 of 1999) and Section 3.1.10. of the Treasury Regulations.

b) The internal audit unit did not fulfill its responsibilities for the year as set out in the Treasury Regulations number 3.2.

c) There were significant deficiencies in the design and implementation of internal control and risk management.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) The Audit Committee and internal audit unit are adequately staffed and function properly; and

b) The Department implements appropriate internal control and risk management measures.


1.2        On Asset Management

a) Assets are counted annually and exceptions are not followed up timeously.

b) Documentation relating to assets were not readily available for examination.

c) The control activities surrounding the control of assets are in place but they are not applied appropriately.

d) Assets captured on LOGIS resulted in information not being available on a timely basis to allow effective monitoring of events, activities and transactions to allow prompt reaction.

e) Assets recorded on the financial systems were not reconciled to the fixed asset register.

f) Data recorded by the information and financial systems was not compared with physical assets/stock and discrepancies exist.

g) Management does have a strategy in place to ensure that ongoing monitoring is effective but this is not being applied effectively with regards to asset management.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

The Department develops and implements a monitoring strategy that will address matters related to proper counting, verification, recording and documentation of assets as provided for in Section 10.1.1 of the National Treasury Regulations.


2. Capacity Issues


The Auditor-General identified the following shortcomings:


a) The Department had a high vacancy rate in critical occupations, e.g. nurses (25.4%), pharmacists (44.4%), medical practitioners (20%), finance and economics related professionals (26.1%), financial & related posts (47%) and information technology (66.7%).

b) Inadequate training of personnel.

c) The Human Resource (HR) plan has not been updated with the projected information for the 2008-09 financial year. The HR plan provided only reflects projected information for the 2006-07 financial year, resulting in the department not complying with chapter 1, part 3, paragraph D1(c), of the Public Service Regulations (PSR).


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) A comprehensive human resource strategy is developed that will attract, retain and address the remuneration of skilled professionals in critical occupations in order to ensure that the Department carries out its mandate successfully;

b) The training resources available within the public service are adequately utilised at all levels.

c) The Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy (PALAMA) is speedily engaged to ascertain the training requirements within the Department.

d) A comprehensive HR plan is developed annually as required by the Public Services Regulations.


3. System-related Issues


The Auditor-General identified the following shortcomings:


a) No proper reconciliations were performed between WAT and LOGIS systems to ensure that all assets are captured.

b) Lack of independent reviews by management caused shortcomings in internal controls.

c) Inadequate policies and procedure manuals have resulted in incomprehensive business processes.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

a) There is continuous performance monitoring and reconciliation between WAT & LOGIS systems to ensure that all assets are captured.

b) Policies and procedures are developed and implemented to ensure the adequacy of business processes.


4. Unauthorised Expenditure


The Auditor-General identified the following:

Department incurred unauthorised expenditure amounting to R483 million as a result of implementing the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council (PSCBC) resolution no 1 of 2007 on the improvement of salaries and other conditions of service for the financial years 2007/08 to 2010/11.


The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures that:

The Department properly budgets for its salary increments and other   conditions of service in line with the PFMA.


5. Conclusion


The Committee is alarmed by the Department’s poor financial planning as it noted during the hearing. The hearing revealed that the Department had budgeted R 297 million for payment of overtime work but ended up paying R1.2 billion to balance its overtime bill. Therefore, the Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensures proper financial planning to avoid such occurrences.

The Committee is of the view that there was value-for-money for the Department when it was utilising the services of the Special Investigative Unit (SIU) in rooting out corruption in the Department. Therefore, the Committee recommends that the services of the SIU be continuously utilised by the Department to follow up on any occurrences of corruption within the Department.


The Committee has noted the recurring qualification on assets since the 2005/06 financial year, and it is for this reason that it calls for an urgent progress report from the Department to outline the steps taken to correct this situation.


The Committee further recommends that the Executive Authority should submit a progress report on all the recommendations to the National Assembly within 60 days after the adoption of this report by the House.


Report to be considered




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