Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 20 Sep 2012

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

THURSDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2012

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:02.

The House Chairperson (Mr R J Tau) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000

NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions without Notice. Let me also announce that the First Order below the line has been moved above the line as the Second Order. The Order Paper on your electronic screen will reflect these changes. For those of you who have come to the House with your hard copies, what you have on paper will not necessarily reflect what is on your screen.

EXTENSION OF DEADLINE BY WHICH AD HOC COMMITTEE ON PROTECTION OF STATE INFORMATION BILL HAS TO REPORT

(Draft resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

That the Council extends the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Committee on the Protection of State Information Bill has to report on the Protection of State Information Bill [B 6B – 2010], to 31 October 2012.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

GOVERNANCE

Cluster 3

MINISTERS:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): The following Ministers have submitted apologies for not being able to be here. The first is the Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission, who is abroad. The second is the Minister in the Presidency: Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration, who has been assigned the responsibility to lead the processes around the deaths at the Marikana mine. The third is the Minister of Women, Children and People with Disabilities, who has experienced a bereavement in her family. Their questions will therefore stand over.

Details relating to target set for municipalities to obtain clean audits and matters relating to municipalities with outstanding audits

63. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

(1) Whether his department has set the target for all municipalities to obtain clean audits by 2014; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

(2) whether the 13% of the municipalities with outstanding audits for the past financial year have now been audited; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

(3) whether he has set any deadlines for these audits to be submitted; if not, why not; if so (a) what steps has he instituted to monitor these municipalities and (b) what are the further relevant details? CO617E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, Operation Clean Audit’s target is that by 2014 all municipalities are supposed to have achieved clean audits on their annual financial statements and be maintaining systems for sustaining quality financial statements and management information, with the understanding that all municipalities will each develop their own practical step processes to achieve this.

As of 14 September, audits have not been issued to 3,6% of municipalities. With the exception of two municipalities, the Nala Local Municipality in the Free State and Renosterberg Municipality in the Northern Cape, all have submitted their annual financial statements to the Auditor-General. This refers to all those who had not submitted at the point when the Auditor-General published the audit outcomes. Regarding the two municipalities that have not yet submitted their annual financial statements to the Auditor-General, we are working closely with them and assisting them to compile their annual financial statement as a matter of high priority.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, I want to ask the hon Minister if he is aware that this Council has taken a decision, in the committee and the Council, that in terms of section 139 of the Constitution there must be an intervention, specifically in the Renosterberg Municipality, which he referred to now as one of the two municipalities that hasn’t submitted its annual financial statement to the Auditor-General’s office.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I don’t know whether the Minister will be ready to take that question because it is a new one.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I’m ready to clarify that question, new as it is. There might be a need to engage in the process of applying section 139 of the Constitution, because it is clear in terms of how it starts. So, if there is such a decision, I want to believe that it will be taken on board and will enjoy interest because, according to the Constitution, the Minister for Co-operative Governance and MECs in the respective provinces have the responsibility to deal with this aspect. So, if that is the decision, we welcome it but we would definitely like to engage because the approach in terms of how we apply the Constitution, which is clearly defined, does not seem to be satisfied in terms of what the hon member is saying.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Thank you, hon Minister. I must just state, hon members, that I took a liberty because the Minister was willing to respond. However, it is advisable that even when we have taken decisions in committee, if those decisions have not been presented officially to the House and become the business of the House, it would not be appropriate to raise questions of that nature. What I’m trying to say is: Let us not ambush Ministers or try to sneak in other matters.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chair, I have a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I made a ruling. I call on hon De Villiers to continue with a follow-up question. This is not a debate.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: No, that is not the intention ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): No, it is not. I made a ruling on this matter to caution us all, not you particularly.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: No, but Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Can you respect the ruling I made?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: The fact of the matter is ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no, hon Sinclair, can you respect the ruling I made?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: I just want to say that ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Sinclair, I’m asking you for the second time. Can you respect ... [Interjections.] Hon Sinclair!

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: My question to the hon Minister is: Have any reasons been supplied by those municipalities that did not submit their annual financial reports?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Let me indicate that in the Auditor-General’s report, there is a section that is open to the public and to everybody. There is a section that is contained in the management record and is directed at the municipality concerned. Regarding those municipalities that have not submitted their annual financial statements, we have instructed them - in fact, we are engaging with them - in terms of the programme that we adopted for talking to those municipalities. We have already spoken to some but not to all of them. So, at the point when we conclude this engagement, we will know exactly what each municipality’s reason is for failing to submit its statement.

Finalisation of diagnostic report on state of municipal infrastructure under Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent (Misa) pilot project

64. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

Whether his department has finalised the diagnostic report on the state of municipal infrastructure in 23 district municipalities under the piloted project of Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent (Misa); if not, why not; if so, when will this report be finalised? CO618E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, it should be noted that the focus of the diagnostic assessment review by the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa, at the pilot stage was comprehensive and did not only focus on the state of municipal infrastructure. It covered the following areas: governance and intergovernmental relations; municipal operations and administration; planning, infrastructure and service delivery; financial management, sustainability and viability; development and economy.

All in all, Misa concluded the diagnostic assessment review of 88 municipalities during that phase of the development of the government component. The report is readily available and will be made available to hon delegates. As Misa has officially been proclaimed a government component, the priority focus now is to publish a municipal infrastructure book, outlining the state of infrastructure, so as to lay out competency and maintenance profiles in the areas of infrastructure that has to do with electricity supply, water, roads, housing and refuse removal. This is meant to be released in November. It is meant to guide the department’s efforts to strengthen the hand of municipalities through infrastructure development and maintenance.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Zulu, is there a follow-up question? [Inaudible.] None? Is there a follow-up question from any other member? Hon Van Lingen, use another microphone. The wrong microphones are being switched on.

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, can I ask the Minister whether the competency report of the municipalities is going to be more or less the same as the one done by the Municipal Demarcation Board, or is it a different one? Can the Minister just inform us?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: They are definitely not the same. The competency report, in as far as Misa’s assessment is concerned – the one that I said will be released in November – will be talking about the infrastructure profile. It will say what infrastructure has been installed in a particular area and calibrated to operate in a particular arrangement, and if the capacity of this infrastructure to develop is challenged at a given moment in a particular area.

It will not be the same as the Municipal Demarcation Board’s released competency report, because that report refers to a number of issues that relate to municipal viability - having to respond to questions of delivery, informed by the socioeconomic and other factors that are considered for demarcation processes, such as mobility.

So, there will be a difference. This one is meant to say: In respect of the network that you have, what interventions does it need to respond to what is expected? What is the maintenance profile of this infrastructure? That is what the report is going to entail. It will focus narrowly on infrastructure.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Minister, firstly, let me thank the units in the department, or Misa, or the other technical team that assists municipalities. They usually accompany us when we go on oversight visits to municipalities. Thank you very much for those units.

My question concerns those municipalities that do not have capacity and are really not viable, but we are assisting them. For how long are you going to support those municipalities? When will they be able to stand on their own two feet?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: When we assist municipalities that do not have capacity, we also do an assessment to check whether this is inherent to the environment in which they are operating, or whether it is simply a factor of failure on their part.

If the reason for needing to assist them is certain inherent features, some of which result from demarcation, we then have to see what it is that we can do – if it is in the area of being nonviable – to assist them in best developing the economic potential of that area, so that they become self-sustaining and so that this support does not last forever.

When it is due to failure on their part, we definitely go in and assist. We provide timelines for them to live up to what is expected of them and to pull their weight. If they can’t pull their weight, then we obviously have to make sure, because municipalities themselves are not branches or extensions of government departments. They represent a sphere. If they can’t live up to what is expected of them, that is when one begins to look at what the Constitution says, either in terms of section 154 or, if the situation does not improve, one may even consider section 139.

So, it can’t be forever. It can’t be that one creates a sphere of government and then other spheres continue to support those spheres. That is not right and it cannot go on forever.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Minister, with regard to the diagnostic report for municipalities, is this report structured on any norms and standards for municipalities? If so, how will those municipalities be supported to get that infrastructure in their areas on the ground?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: With regard to the report that has been a product of the pilot activities, which were meant to assess generally what the situation looked like; the report that is going to be provided and, as I said, needed to look at the profile of municipal infrastructure in municipalities, the norm is that you should not have municipal infrastructure that just sits there, like decorations. You want municipal infrastructure that will be there to deliver.

So, in terms of the norms and standards, how far do you go? Get this municipal infrastructure to the point where it is ready and becomes a tool for effective service delivery. That is the norm. So, when you assist, you say: This is as far as I will go.

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, this would be the fourth question. May I continue, please? [Interjections.] In terms of human resources capacity in municipalities – there is obviously a budget for this fund or for Misa. What amount of the budget is he going to spend on the HR support that he is going to give, since the latest report showed that 91% of municipalities were using consultants to make up for their top structures? We would appreciate some guidance in this direction.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The “how much” part is really a new question and I can provide details, if that is needed, at a later stage. Again, as much as the question is new, I can indicate that this will depend on the extent to which you assess that municipality and then say: This is the HR intervention that you are going to need.

Some interventions don’t need money. Some interventions will just say that when it comes to HR capacity, when you deal with the question of recruitment and you recruit competent people, those people already come with capacity. So, it’s a question of then asking: How do we deal with these issues? We will come to that point at a particular stage. However, with regard to the “how much” part of it – if the hon delegate will agree – we can provide the details. I know they have come but it will be difficult to do that without having done a final assessment, as in the report which, as I have said, will come around in November.

Release of Manase Report on eThekwini Municipality and implementation of guidelines to deal with corruption in municipalities

65. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

(1) Whether he has taken any steps to ensure that the Manase Report on the eThekwini Municipality is released immediately; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

(2) whether he will implement strict guidelines to ensure that (a) reports into corruption in municipalities are released immediately and (b) culprits are being charged without delay; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO619E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the Manase inquiry was commissioned by the Member of the Executive Council in the KwaZulu-Natal province, representing a distinct sphere of government with corresponding authority to deal with matters of providing support and oversight on municipalities. The MEC is handling matters of the eThekwini Municipality according to the material conditions obtaining in the area.

It has become public knowledge, as was the intention of the MEC in commissioning the Manase inquiry. The hon delegate Zulu, fully understanding the role and space of the NCOP, knows very well how he can exploit the strategic location of this House to ensure accountability to actions directed by executive authorities in provinces where such actions occur.

Of course we operate in a manner that respects the classical dictum that justice delayed is justice denied. In this context, whenever allegations of corruption are raised against certain individuals, the affected individuals and the public deserve a fair and speedy resolution of these allegations. These we observe, noting that the merits of a case dictate how much time we spend dealing with each one of them in a democratic environment that recognises the rule of law.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Is there a follow-up question?

Prince M M M ZULU: No, thank you. There is no follow-up question.

Mr D A WORTH: With regard to reports into corrupt municipalities being released immediately, we have one such major problem - and I am mentioning Matjhabeng Local Municipality in Welkom – relating to the famous or infamous Ramathe Fivaz Report. I wrote to the Minister and I got the reply - thank you, Minister – stating that this report was released some six months ago, but it is the shortened version. Nobody has ever seen the full version and it deals with maladministration and corruption. Please, Minister, is there any chance that I could get the full report on this?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I commit that I will look into the matter and report accordingly.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, my question to the Minister is this: Does a legislative mechanism exist in the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs that enables the Minister to mete out punitive action to municipalities that have been found beyond reasonable doubt to have erred and, secondly, municipalities that are found to have erred deliberately, year in and year out, by the Auditor-General, particularly those municipalities where actions of corruption have been reported and where such proof has been put forward? In the Ministry or in the department, is there such legislation to mete out punitive action?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the legislative instruments that are available to manage cases of corruption and related matters exist in the context of the critical features defining the relationship of the following three spheres: distinctiveness, interdependence and inter-relatedness. It is the desired legal position that the first step in the meting out of action against corrupt activities should be done at the level where the misconduct occurred; at the level where corruption or any other issue occurred.

At the level of the Minister, we come in at the point where you are satisfied that all other local avenues have been exhausted or there is no capacity to deal with the issue. Either we deal with that through section 154 of the Constitution, which provides for support to municipalities in dealing with issues like that, or it goes to section 139. However, we also have other instruments to deal with that. We know we have a code of conduct and anticorruption instruments in this country that we have to use to deal with those issues. So, yes, the body of legal instruments to assist in dealing with these issues is actually fully staffed.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, dealing with the specific matter of the Manase report, the Minister referred to the previous question and, in his initial response, to the fact that there are various legal prerogatives to engage on to deal with this matter. Hon Minister, given the fact that this Manase report apparently has been around for a while and that many of these legal procedures that you recommend have been engaged, don’t you believe the time has arrived that you, in your capacity as Minister, engage in these methods to release the report?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I have responded to part of that question. I would like to refer to it again and say that this House of Parliament differs from the National Assembly because it is a House of provinces. The Manase report was actioned at the provincial level and for that reason this House has a right to engage with it at that particular level. That is the point I raised, so that we do not appoint Ministers to become messengers for us to do exactly what we are supposed to do in this House.

Having raised that, I also want to indicate that the Manase report has not only been around for some time but the Manase inquiry that produced the report is public knowledge in terms of what action was taken in that particular province and in Ethekwini Local Municipality. I think we can deal with those issues. It is not that one does not want to come and present the report. The MEC has got the space to come and present it here. If the MEC was to talk about the report, she would go into more details than I could because the commissioning was at that level, under her control. That is exactly what I indicated.

Prince M M M ZULU: With due respect, Minister, I would like to bring to your attention, as the Minister of this department, that this report has been kept in Durban for months now. It has never been released to the people to deal with it. We make an application to you, as the responsible person in this department.

Ugqugquzele phela baba ukuthi aziboshwe izigebengu. Yizigidi zemali elaphaya! Akuyona imadlana nje! Mhlawumbe ukuba ngamasentshana ayishumi nanhlanu ngabe ngithi akuyekwe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[You must see to it that these criminals are arrested. We are talking about millions of rands that were misappropriated, not just small change. If the money involved was maybe only fifteen cents, we would not be so concerned.]

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: On a point of order, for the record of this House, the MEC reported in the portfolio committee of this legislature. The Minister’s answer is relevant because that report was presented to the portfolio committee, which is representative of all parties. The insinuation made by the member is not correct.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Point of order sustained. I am not going to allow a debate on this issue. [Interjections.] No, no, no. I am not going to allow a debate on this issue. [Interjections.] Hon members, just to assist you, I do not know what you are debating. This is not a debate. Prince, may I assist by sustaining the point of order as presented by the leader of the delegation from KwaZulu-Natal. To assist further, as a delegate from KwaZulu-Natal, it is also advisable that you, with your collective, further engage with the provincial legislature because, moreover, the report was presented to the portfolio committee in this legislature and it was adopted. I tried to caution you on this: Let us not try to put the Minister on the spot on issues that we, as members of this House, should know he may not have the authority to deal with. [Interjections.] Is that a follow-up question? I think it will be the last follow-up question.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Hon Chair, I think the Minister is being of assistance to most of us and, in particular, to our own Select Committees on Finance and on Appropriations in the manner that he is handling this situation. We appreciate the input that the Minister is making. The question I want to ask is in relation to instances where wrongdoing has been unearthed in the municipality and both the municipality and the province do not act. The report then becomes available to both the Finance and Appropriations committees. Once we have a report of that nature, is it possible to hand that type of the report to the Minister, for the Minister to act?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): That is not a follow-up question. And just to assist with the process: Yes, you can.

Details relating to water scarcity in rural areas

66. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

(1) Whether he has implemented any processes that deal with water scarcity in the rural areas; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

(2) whether any strategies have been planned to urgently relieve the plight of those people who have little or no water in the rural areas; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

(3) whether the area of Ingwavuma in KwaZulu-Natal is included in these plans; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO620E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, we have established a close corporation arrangement with the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs in keeping with our operational stance of mobilising actors in the service delivery chain to respond in a co-ordinated fashion. The idea is to respond to the community’s needs in the delivery of water as a basic service. In terms of this arrangement, we identified critical areas to be considered as priority areas that needed our joint effort. Ingwavuma, in the Umkhanyakude District, is one of the 23 districts nationally prioritised for development. The universal access plan for the Umkhanyakude District includes the upgrade of the Sewula water treatment works, the borehole and the refurbishment of waterworks and schemes.

Further to this, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs funded the Ingwavuma ventilated improved pit sanitation project in 2011-2012 from the municipal infrastructure grant to the value of R142 588 855, and it is funding the construction of the Ingwavuma sportsfield ablution block to the value of R329 million in 2012-2013.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, in connection with water supply to communities, are there projects or plans in your department, or from your department to municipalities, regarding the harvesting of rainwater?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I didn’t hear the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, can you repeat your question, because I also missed it?

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: What I would like to find out from the Minister is whether there is any plan in his department, or in the plans between national government, the municipality or local government and the province, for the harvesting of rainwater in certain areas in rural communities.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the connection between the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the delivery of water and the arrangement I referred to between ourselves and the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs is that the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs delivers water, and they do so at the local area, where we are responsible. But we are not directly responsible for the actual harvesting of water and the channelling of this water from the source, be it the natural source, to the taps, where people use it. What we then have to do in this regard is to say yes, it is the responsibility of the Minister for Water and Environmental Affairs to make sure that they supply water. The Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will then say: My municipalities and my people at this local area need water. That is why we got into that partnership and into that operational agreement. But as far as the actual harvesting is concerned, the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs can best deal with that.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, perhaps the Minister did not understand my question. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I think what the Minister is saying, in summary, is that it is a collective responsibility.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I will take it up with the Minister.

Financial implications of demarcation of District Management Areas into Grade 1 and Grade 2 local municipalities and additional funding mechanisms being put in place

73. Mrs E C van Lingen (DA) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

(1) Whether demarcating the District Management Areas into (a) Grade 1 and (b) Grade 2 local municipalities had any financial implications on the operational budgets of these municipalities; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what financial support measures are in place to ensure the sustainability of service delivery;

(2) whether any additional funding mechanisms have been put in place to address the (a) capital and (b) operational budgets of the (i) Grade 1 and (ii) Grade 2 local municipalities; if not, why not; if so, what process has to be followed to apply for additional funding? CO627E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: When determining or re-determining municipal boundaries, the Municipal Demarcation Board takes into account factors related to the economic viability of the entities created and the responsibility of various spheres to carry out their mandates.

The Municipal Demarcation Board determines or re-determines municipal boundaries, taking into account the existing funding framework applicable to municipalities because no additional funding mechanisms are put in place solely to deal with demarcation issues. However, this is a matter of general application across all municipalities, regardless of whether they are affected by re-demarcation or not, as compared to other grades of municipalities. All grades, Grade 1 to Grade 3, local municipalities receive funding through the local government equitable share and other conditional grants such as the municipal infrastructure grant and municipal systems improvement grant.

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, some of these municipalities got additional areas, the district management areas. At the moment these areas cover more or less a third of their size but they don’t have a revenue base and there is no income to cover operations and service delivery in those areas.

When these particular municipalities were under the auspices of the district municipality, the MIG funding was in Year 1. In Year 2, an extra 8% was given on the capital side. In Year 3, the whole project fell flat and the capital couldn’t carry on. When it comes to the equitable share, the numbers in these rural areas are too low to cover service delivery. This is where we are asking, Minister: Is there an additional source of funding on either side and could Misa perhaps help us here?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: This is a very important follow-up question. Perhaps specifics are needed so that we can respond in detail. Which municipalities are we talking about? That will suggest whether it is an issue for Misa to respond to or is it an issue of how we deal with demarcation questions to manage such situations. So, what the hon delegate is talking about is a very important follow-up question, but we need specifics. Could it be Kungwini Municipality, which was incorporated into Tshwane Municipality, or which ones are we talking about? With those specifics, we would be in a position to respond to that. There is no one-size-fits-all response when dealing with questions like this. Of course, there is no idle money. Therefore, you have to look at each situation according to its own merit, and you can’t talk merits before you talk specifics.

Details relating to dismissal of section 56 and 57 managers who had been unlawfully appointed in local municipalities since May 2011

74. Mrs E C van Lingen (DA) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

Whether section (a) 56 and (b) 57 managers who had been unlawfully appointed in local municipalities since May 2011 will be dismissed from those positions by the relevant MECs; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO628E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, municipal managers and managers directly accountable to them are appointed in terms of the relevant provisions in the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act by the relevant municipal councils. Any of these managers whose appointment is questionable in terms of the existing legal instrument must be dealt with accordingly the moment information is received.

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: I have great respect for what the Minister has just said and I’m really very happy to hear it. The competency or the powers - whatever you want to call it - rests with the MECs to take the necessary action within 14 days after they have been notified of the council decision.

Now, I can mention a couple of situations where these unlawful appointments have been made and where positions have not been advertised and contracts have just been extended. Others have had court judgments and those are not being followed through. So, can the Minister tell us whether he may then intervene over and above the MEC, please?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, of course, even if municipalities made a mistake and appointed somebody who, in terms of the law, was not supposed to have been appointed, they will surely act if that information surfaces. If the MEC gets to know about those things within 14 days, then the MEC will surely act. However, if there is a clear demonstration that there is no willingness to act in that regard, by all means the Minister may act.

Mr J M BEKKER: Hon Minister, will you please help me? There is a court judgment stating that a certain municipal manager is not capable of doing the job. The council took a decision to dismiss him but the mayor insists on keeping him, and this situation is ongoing. No meetings are being held - not ward, committee or council meetings - but he insists that he will stay. What can we do about this?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: We can do whatever is possible, but we must first know who we are talking about. Secondly, which municipality is involved? Thirdly, which court ruled on what, and what informed that ruling? Fourthly, what informs the mayor to insist on dealing with this issue? Is it a question of then saying that his or her understanding of the rule of trias politica is that the role of the executive has been encroached upon? Is that it?

So, we can do whatever is possible, but help us. You wondered if we could help. Yes, we can help but you also have to help us in order to help you. The hon member has to give us the details. Which municipality is he talking about? We can definitely help because if we don’t, we create a legacy that could compromise our drive for clean governance. We definitely have to do something about that. Let us know, then we will take that forward.

Mr J M BEKKER: Thank you, I will give you that information.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order! No, no, no, we heard your follow-up question. The hon Faber raised his hand and then left the House.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, you see, that is the problem with the DA: When they are supposed to appear, they disappear! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] We are grateful for the Minister’s response. In theory, much of what the Minister says is right and fine, but the reality and the practicalities at local government level tell us something different.

Regarding the principle of appointments, one of the challenges that the councils experience is a lack of regulation from the department regarding the credentials of the appointees in terms of sections 56 and 57. This was so until recently - about three weeks ago. My question to the Minister is: Have the regulations that are supposed to guide the councils in regard to the qualifications and credentials of section 56 and 57 appointments been gazetted by the department?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The Local Government: Municipal Systems Amendment Act is enabling legislation in terms of dealing with questions of competency. The regulations are meant to facilitate the interpretation and application of the amendment in terms of that. We will soon publish that. There is a process of consultation, which we are finalising, on the regulations themselves. July was our target, but we have since shifted that to allow for final consultations. We will continue to deal with that - I’m meeting the unions tomorrow as part of that consultation. On Tuesday, I’m meeting the SA Local Government Association as part of taking this process of consultation forward in order to finalise the regulations so that we can amend.

I think hon delegates will remember that the Local Government: Municipal Systems Amendment Act, owing to its nature, has been a process characterised by quite a lot of toing and froing. We are dealing with that and these matters will be addressed. However, it can’t be argued that at the moment we don’t have an instrument when the Act is there. It is very clear in terms of the proclamation, which is commonly referred to as the 2013 Proclamation, between the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Minister of Finance. There are even specific minimum requirements. That is why it is now being said that the local government environment is actually overregulated. It is because we are dealing with those very issues. So, there can be no such excuse. Yes, of course, we are not abdicating our responsibility to finalise the regulations. We will do so, as I have indicated.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Faber, I had you on the list before the hon Sinclair but then you left the House. You are back now. Do you still want to ask a question?

Mr W F FABER: Thank you, hon Chair, I just had to run out and make sure of my facts. Hon Minister, I would just like to know: Regarding the appointment - or let’s start with the interview process - of section 56 and 57 managers, when we have complaints that all parties are not involved, how do we go about doing something about that? Unfortunately, it happens that not all parties are involved in this process. We need to know because we are not just talking about people who are not qualified. Sometimes we do get people who are qualified but not all parties are involved. How do we let our councillors out there handle that in the correct way? What procedures should we then follow, seeing as the MECs and the mayors don’t adhere to what we ask?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, I don’t know whether you are going to take that question.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, let me try. Clearly, there are circulars that deal with managing that, because you can’t prescribe for a procedural issue in an Act. That would be taking legislation too far. You have to deal with that in terms of the instruments of management, and circulars are one of them.

There are situations where you find that people interpret “all parties must be involved” as referring to all the political parties serving in a municipality. That is not practical. We are dealing with an administrative matter that has to be managed in a particular way. That is the situation I have.

Also, we can benefit in that we will be able to answer directly. We don’t want to be seen to be giving general answers when we deal with honourable Houses like this. We want to give specific answers. If it was being said that in municipality A the requirement for constituting a panel was not satisfied, then we can easily clarify that. I clarified that just before coming here, in Swellendam, and they came to understand that it was true.

In the majority of cases, people will hunt for reasons and raise issues regarding panels only after a decision has been taken to appoint a particular person. If a decision has been taken to appoint a person they do not want, then they raise all sorts of things. I’m not saying, hon delegate, that that is the case here. I’m generalising because I don’t know the specifics.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Minister Baloyi. Hon members, you will notice that we have come to the sixth question and therefore Rule 246(4) kicks in. This Rule clearly explains that a Minister can be asked only six questions. Therefore, any question that comes after question number six will be dealt with differently. The Minister has answered all the questions he was allowed to in terms of the Rules of this House. Thank you very much, hon Minister, for your time and the responses you have provided.

We shall therefore proceed to question 78. In doing so, we welcome Deputy Minister Dlodlo. I don’t know whether it is the first time ... [Interjections.] It’s not her first time here, but is it not her first time for answering questions in her current position? [Interjections.] Not? In any case, you are heartily welcomed. You may proceed with the question asked by the hon Themba.

Monitoring of and information on public servants who have been suspended and/or dismissed for misconduct in national departments

78. Ms M P Themba (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

Whether her department (a) monitors and/or (b) keeps information of public servants who have been (i) suspended and/or (ii) dismissed for misconduct in national departments; if not, why not; if so, (aa) how many public servants were (aaa) suspended and/or (bbb) dismissed in the past three years, (bb) what was the nature of their misconduct and (cc) how many of those were from the Chief Director level and above? CO649E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, the Department for the Public Service and Administration monitors public servants who have been suspended and/or dismissed from the Public Service for misconduct. We gather this information from relevant departments upon request. We have since developed a reporting template where all departments will provide information through the Persal system.

According to the information received from Persal in the past three years, 2 922 employees have been suspended and 149 were dismissed. The employees that were suspended or dismissed were charged for the following reasons: failure to comply with or contravening an Act, regulations and legal obligations; deliberate mismanagement of state finances; theft, bribery or fraud; insubordination, absenteeism from work without reason or permission; accepting compensation without written approval from the employer; sexual harassment, discrimination, sleeping on duty; contravening the code of conduct; assault, attempts to or threatening to assault a person; intimidation and victimisation of fellow employees; and the violation of common law or committing a statutory offence while on state premises.

During the period under review, 379 misconduct cases were committed by officials at the level of chief director and above.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): The hon Themba is not in the House, nor has she delegated anyone to ask a follow-up question on her behalf. In the absence of follow-up questions, we continue with Question 79.

Provision made and steps taken to capacitate public servants who are not adequately qualified for their positions with reference to multiyear wage plan

79. Mr M P Sibande (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

(a) What provision has been made and (b) what steps will be taken to capacitate public servants who are not adequately qualified for their positions with reference to the multiyear wage plan that her department has entered into to provide for salary increases of public servants that are linked to performance and the provisions of labour legislation? CO650E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chairperson, the issue of capacity development and improvement in the skills profile of the Public Service is our priority in order to ensure a professional Public Service that can deliver to the people of South Africa. This matter features prominently in the wage agreement signed by the unions on 31 July 2012. We are now requiring all public servants to undergo a compulsory training course to ensure that they are properly trained to understand government’s policies and processes. This is part of the induction process.

The specific policies that the Public Service has put in place to facilitate and support the capacity-building of public servants include the White Paper on Public Service Training and Education, equality of access by all personnel at all levels to meaningful training opportunities, and lifelong learning, particularly through a National Qualifications Framework. Our focus will be on the implementation of these policies, supported by the application of the performance management development system to ensure that only public servants who meet a certain performance threshold get paid for their pay progression.

I have attached additional information, which supports some of the information I provided here. It could also be sent to the members to peruse it.

Mr M P SIBANDE: As we all know, we are still battling with the scars of the past. If I may ask, approximately how many public servants are still affected in that regard and need to be capacitated?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Unfortunately, I do not have that information on hand but I can provide it to the House at a later date.

Details relating to realignment of Community Development Workers Programme and Public Service delivery activities

82. Mr M P Sibande (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

Whether the Community Development Workers Programme and its Public Service delivery activities have been realigned as envisaged; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) to what extent will such realignment improve the (i) programme and (ii) Public Service delivery activities and (b) what are the further relevant details? CO653E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: During 2011-12, high-level provincial consultative workshops were conducted in all nine provinces with the focus on strengthening the alignment of the Community Development Workers programme and finalising all residual issues with respect to the optimal functioning of the programme. The process has assisted in identifying capacity needs for community development workers, CDWs. The findings have informed the recommendation for the strengthening of the co-ordination and functioning of the programme moving forward.

A framework master plan for CDWs was developed, which clearly defines the functional areas that CDWs occupy within government service delivery, improvement and access machinery. CDWs are clearly focused to deliver on identified competency areas of the master plan. A guideline for CDWs and other government sector-specific fieldworkers is used to manage the implementation of the generic aspects of the CDW function and programme. It is a flexible guideline that serves as an important instrument to identify stakeholders with whom the CDWs should collaborate in partnerships and relationships to ensure proper co-ordination of government programmes at ward level.

Furthermore, it aims to foster a common understanding and interpretation of the programme within the spheres of government and stakeholders, allowing CDWs to play their role effectively and efficiently. The tangible results have been the development of a resource book, piloted in Limpopo and the Free State. It is a tool aimed at providing practical assistance to CDWs to improve their performance. The publication, called Grassroots, is also circulated annually and it aims to share stories and good practice on the work of the CDWs.

The draft regulations for the role of all categories of fieldworkers have been developed and are awaiting approval during this financial year. They will assist in finalising the location of the CDWs and better conditions for all CDWs.

I want to add that in trying to take the work of the CDWs forward, we have also looked into some of the international and regional obligations, through the APRM, the SADEC protocols and other instruments internationally, that specifically speak to public participation and public engagement - it is a citizens’ engagement - in the planning processes of government but also in the reporting and accountability processes. What we have decided to do, therefore, is hold a symposium or a seminar with all the CDWs every year. This was to be our first year, and unfortunately we could not do it on time. What we hope to do there is to ensure - for instance, next year, immediately after the state of the nation address and the Budget Speech by the Minister of Finance - that we will hold a workshop with all the CDWs. The President will then explain to CDWs what the state of the nation address actually means in practical terms to members of the public; how it will be applied with the budget that has been put in place; and how the two speak to each other. We will then look at the National Development Plan, to ensure that we are able to disseminate information on its roll-out to general members of the public.

However, we will also look at other speeches or other instruments that have been put in place by government as a way of ensuring that citizens are fully informed about the work of government. Chief among them will be the Minister of Finance talking to CDWs about how the global economic situation impacts on the South African fiscus. I believe our people are very reasonable and the only time they show unreasonable behaviour is when they do not have sufficient information to deal with matters. So, if we approach them with that kind of information, they will be able to make choices about their lives. They will be able to understand instances where services have not been delivered; that this or that is the real reason why services have not been delivered. So it is an effort to try and get ourselves closer to the masses. We want to be able to explain and share experiences - but we also want to get what the masses want from the work of government.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Hon Chair, I don’t know, perhaps you can help me with whether this is a new question or not. I would be very grateful if the Deputy Minister could clarify the different responsibilities of the ward committee and the CDWs because there is a lot of confusion on the ground.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Deputy Minister, you are at liberty to answer but I think maybe that will form part of the symposium or seminar that you were talking about.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: It definitely will. Out of that process we will then be able to come back to the House to report on what it is that we have done. However, there is a distinction: These are government employees, who are supposed to take processes of government and deliberate on issues relating to service delivery with the masses. They are paid public servants. That would be part of the difference as well.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Maybe what the hon Sibande wanted to say is that we should not leave out the NCOP from that symposium in order for members to be part of the processes too. Of course, that is for the department ... [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Oh! Did I jump to conclusions?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: ... both committees involved.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau):It is not a follow-up question. It is a suggestion from the Chief Whip of the Council. Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

Assessment of gender equality, transformation and employment of people with disabilities in achieving objectives of transforming the Public Service

84. Mr M P Jacobs (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

Whether the government has undertaken an assessment of gender equality, transformation and the employment of people with disabilities in the process of achieving the objectives of building a representative, coherent, transparent, effective, efficient and accountable Public Service; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) what progress has been made, (b) what challenges are being experienced in transforming the Public Service and (c) what are the further relevant details? CO655E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: We have conducted a number of surveys to assess progress made with regard to the transformation of the Public Service to ensure gender equality and the 2% target of people with disabilities. The survey includes the following: that the department has established a human resource steering committee, consisting of the human resource officials from the department. The committee reviews the policy quarterly and assesses progress in implementation.

The survey, together with other surveys conducted by the department, shows that the results of the survey referred to above indicated that performance in the employment of people with disabilities in the Public Service between 2008 and 2011 improved as follows: in 2008, we were at 0,91%, in March 2009, we were at 0,20%, in March 2010, we were at 0,20% again, in March 2011 at 0,32%, and in March 2012 at 0,36%.

As at 30 June 2012, representation of people with disabilities was 0,37%. Of this number, 2 017, which is 40%, were females and the rest were males. In terms of the spread of this group, there were 77 at senior management service level, 194 at middle management and 4 716 at levels 1 to 9. Based on the above figures, it is evident that although government has not achieved the required 2% employment equity target for the employment of people with disabilities, considerable progress has been made in the employment of people with disabilities.

According to the 2011-12 report, the number of departments that have achieved the required 2% target has increased from the previous year and so has the number of those that have managed to achieve at least 1% of the required 2% target.

Regarding achieving gender equality, we can report that the performance of the Public Service from 2008 to 2012 is as follows: December 2008 was 34,3%; March 2009 was 34,8%; 2010 was 36%; 2011 was 37% and 2012 is 31,1%. The trends above show that even though the required 50% target has not been achieved in terms of the representation of women at various levels of senior management service, there is considerable progress in this regard. The 2011-12 annual report shows that the number of the individual departments achieving the 50% and those between 30% and 40% has significantly improved.

Having painted this positive outlook, I wish to indicate that there are challenges experienced in transforming the Public Service on these particular issues, including that it has been observed that not all departments implement the strategic framework developed by the Department for the Public Service and Administration. It is this lack of implementation that contributes to the inability to achieve transformation in the Public Service.

For instance, the Department for the Public Service and Administration has developed tools, such as the JobACCESS Strategic Framework on the Recruitment, Employment and Retention of Persons with Disabilities in the Public Service and the Gender Equality Strategic Framework for the Public Service, to assist departments in creating an environment conducive to the employment of women and people with disabilities as part of the transformation process.

The provision of reasonable accommodation and assistive devices for people with disabilities is still a challenge for some departments and public institutions. To address this challenge, the Department for the Public Service and Administration has developed a policy on a reasonable accommodation and assistive-devices programme, with a funding model that will assist departments in budgeting for this policy. This policy is also en route to Cabinet.

The stigma that continues to apply to people with disabilities and women in leadership remains another ongoing challenge in achieving transformation in the Public Service. A number of departments have developed advocacy and awareness-raising programmes to remove such barriers but more of these activities still need to be implemented. Further information on the transformation of the Public Service includes: Following the production of the 2010-2011 annual report, the Department for the Public Service and Administration singled out national and provincial departments that were below 30% in their representation of women in senior management service and less than 1% in their representation of people with disabilities for targeted intervention. The intervention consisted of the Department for the Public Service and Administration writing letters to the provincial departments through the offices of premiers, requesting that the departments provide the Department for the Public Service and Administration with targeted remedial plans as well as timeframes to address the underrepresentation of those targeted groups. The Department for the Public Service and Administration is monitoring departments closely in this regard.

The Department for the Public Service and Administration has developed the Public Service Women’s Week as part of women’s empowerment for gender equality in the Public Service. It includes the implementation of the 8-Principle Action Plan for Promoting Women’s Empowerment and Gender Equality in the Public Service and places the responsibility for leading gender transformation on the heads of the department and the directors-general. Departments are required to report on this programme to the Department for the Public Service and Administration annually.

On disability, the Department for the Public Service and Administration, in partnership with the Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, developed an accredited training course on disability management, based on the JobACCESS Strategic Framework on the Recruitment, Employment and Retention of Persons with Disabilities in the Public Service. The purpose of this training course and framework, launched in 2009, is to provide officials with skills that contribute to the inclusion of the people with disabilities in the workplace and remove barriers that prevent their successful participation in the job market. Learners are trained in advocacy and awareness, raising the benefits of support and planning for diversity, with a special focus on disability. Learners are also equipped with knowledge on legal frameworks, codes of conduct, codes of good practice and manuals on the employment of people with disabilities. The first pilot training was done with the Department of Public Works and up to 544 officials have now been trained.

On gender, an accredited training course in gender mainstreaming in the Public Service was developed by Palama in 2008. The purpose of this training course is to provide officials with skills that would contribute to the mainstreaming of gender in all policy procedures, processes and projects in the Public Service. To date, 3 823 public officials have been trained. Of those trained, 31% were males and 69% were females. In terms of the breakdown regarding levels, 75% were from level 1 to 12, and 25% were from senior management services level. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister ...

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Sorry, Chairperson, can I also add that I have additional information that gives a breakdown of the work that has been done in this regard.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Jacobs, do you have a follow-up question?

Mr M P JACOBS: Chairperson, I just want to check whether the department has timeframes within which these targets should be met? What steps will it take if those targets are not met by the departments?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I would have to confer with the officials of the department regarding timeframes. I think the issue of equality in the workplace is one of the most urgent matters that our government is looking at. If you remember, in almost all the state of the nation address speeches delivered by all the Presidents, this has been a matter that has been on the agenda. One of the problems, probably, is that it is not part of the measures for the performance management of the directors-general and the heads of department. If we can include it as part of those measures, maybe we could see an increase or a rise in the figures that we see today, but then we would have to come back with the actual timeframes and ensure that we are also able to monitor, based on the timeframes that would have been presented. Thank you.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, I would like to enquire from the Deputy Minister whether the Public Service is required to submit equity plans annually, as is required by the Employment Equity Act, to the Department of Labour. Are all departments asked to submit directly to the Department of Labour or is the process co-ordinated by the Department for the Public Service and Administration?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, Public Service departments have an obligation to submit their equity plans to the Department for the Public Service and Administration but, in turn, the rest of the Public Service, like all other public entities, have got that responsibility to submit to the Department of Labour annually. As I said earlier, there should be some synergy in that that reporting should also come to this House. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister – and we appreciate that we are at 0,37% employment of people with disabilities, as we slowly get to our 2% target - whether she found any problems in the Public Service regarding persons with disabilities gaining access to state buildings. She alluded to housing and, yes, housing is a problem. I can understand that. With regard to the accessibility of buildings, persons with disabilities often need certain special facilities, like special toilets or whatever. I know Public Works carries out the alterations, but do you liaise and work closely with them, and how far have we gone to help persons with disabilities gain access to buildings?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I think the issue of physical access to government buildings for people with disabilities, but also to general members of the public, has been an ongoing programme. I do not have the figures, hon member, of how far Public Works has progressed with that but these are also figures I can get hold of and bring to the House. I must emphasise that there is an indication of how serious we are about this issue: We have taken up a programme in one of our entities, called the Centre for Public Service Innovation, where we are looking at teaching aids for teachers who are visually impaired. We are in the process of launching a gadget, which has been an innovation by this entity, and teachers in certain parts of the country have already started using this gadget. So, as much as the Department of Public Works is looking at certain things, even from an innovation point of view, we as a department are assisting that process.

You will remember that government also offers accommodation to public servants, so habitable accommodation with easy access for people with disabilities is one of the things Public Works is supposed to look at, besides just access to offices and buildings.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister. Hon members on my left, seriously, it is a problem. I do not want to announce what the problem is. I hope you know. Let us just be in order, please.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, on a lighter note: The disability sector will be moving from 2% to 20%. There is a strong feeling that this issue is not taken seriously. The bar is so low that nobody cares or notices. So, it is going to move to 20%, and that is a huge challenge. The question is: Shouldn’t the state or the government and the departments be more exemplary so that when you go to the private sector, you are able to say that this is what we have done as the state; now you have to do the same. But the state itself is not performing in terms of these targets. How will we achieve outside if we, the state, fail to meet the targets?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, the hon member is right. We should be setting the example as government. I think we have set the example in many areas. If you look at the figures that we are presenting today and juxtapose that with the private sector, we are doing much better than the private sector.

The other problem, hon member, is that you will find that some departments have reached and surpassed the 2% threshold, but it is those that are not making an effort that bring the figure down. We should then look at ensuring that it becomes part of the performance agreement between the executing authority and the accounting officer. You would then see an increase in the figures.

Just to take you up on your lighter note, hon member, have you done a study to determine what the percentage of people with disabilities is as a percentage of the general population?

Drafting of regulations since last national elections, and consideration and finalisation of such regulations

85. Ms M G Boroto (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

(1) Whether her department has drafted any regulations since the last national elections; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how many;

(2) whether such regulations were sent to Parliament for consideration; if not, why not; if so, when were they finalised? CO656E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chairperson, once again, thank you very much. Since the last elections, the department has not drafted any regulations. It has only made some amendments to the current Public Service Regulations 2001, with recent amendments coming into effect on 31 July 2012.

In terms of the Public Service Act, there is no requirement that the Public Service Regulations be submitted to Parliament for consideration. The only legal requirement is that when the Minister for the Public Service and Administration is making or issuing regulations in terms of section 41 of the Public Service Act, the Minister needs to publish those in the Government Gazette. When amendments are to be effected to the regulations, the Minister consults with Cabinet to ensure a common understanding and consensus on the recommended amendments to the regulatory framework for the Public Service. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Are there any follow-up questions? [Interjections.] In the absence of any follow-up questions, hon members, I have been furnished with responses to Questions 76, 67, 87 and 80, which are questions to the Minister in the Presidency. You will remember that when we started I indicated that his apology had been received. So, I am advised that in terms of procedure, the House can accept these responses and they can be made available to all members as copies.

Hon members, that brings us to the end of Questions for today. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister, once more, for her availability and the responses that she provided to the House. Thank you very much.