Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 04 Dec 2019


No summary available.







Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqH55jd_nLg





The House met at 10:02.



House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence or meditation.





members! Will you take up yours seats please, we want to start with the proceedings. The first item on the order paper is a motion in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.





that the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a) which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill may not commence before at least three Assembly working days have elapsed since the committee’s report



was tabled. For the purposes of conducting the Second Reading today on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill, I therefore move that the House waive that particular Rule. Thank you.



Motion agreed to.








wish to remind you that on Tuesday, 26 November 2019, the decision on the question on the recommendation of candidates for the appointment to the Public Service Commission was postponed. The question before the House is that Ms Zanele Isabella Hlatshwayo be recommended for appointment to the Public Service Commission.



There was no debate.



Question put: That the House approves the nomination of Ms Zanele Isabella Hlatshwayo as commissioner of Public Service Commission.



Division demanded.



The House Divided.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, in terms of section 196 paragraph (8) and subparagraph (A) of the Constitution, the persons nominated for appointed to serve on the Public Service Commission must be approved by a majority of the members of the Assembly. A division has been called and the bells will be rung for five minutes.






Order hon member, please take up your allocated seats. Hon members, you are reminded that today there will be a number of voting that will take place in the House. When the bells ring it’s an indication that you must move towards your allocated seat, not away from your seats.

Because it prolongs the process. It can be a very long afternoon, if we do not comply with this.



You are reminded that you may only vote from your allocated seat. When requested to do so, you must simply indicate your vote by pressing the appropriate button below the yes, no or abstain signs. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button, the member may press the correct button thereafter. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member’s vote when the voting session is closed.



Question put: That the House approves the nomination of Ms Zanele Isabella Hlatshwayo for appointment to serve

... Order hon member. We are in a voting session now and I am putting a question. Hon member, you should study the rules and see what happens when voting takes place.



Question put: That the House approves the nomination of Ms Zanele Isabella Hlatshwayo for appointment to serve as commissioner of Public Service Commission.






AN HON MEMBER: House Chairperson, I have long indicated that there is a problem with ...





just sort it out please! Order hon members!



The majority required in terms of section 196(8)(a)(ii) of the Constitution 1996(Act No 108 of 1996) not being obtained, decision of question postponed.





have indicated earlier, there will be a number of divisions that will be called today and it will depend on the co-operation that we receive from all of you as hon members.






Mr G MAGWANISHE: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]





members! Hon Magwanishe, before you continue, will you just take a seat hon Magwanishe. Hon members, there is too much noise in the House. Hon Magwanishe, you may proceed.



Mr G MAGWANISHE: ... Chairperson and hon members. The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services having considered the request of the National Assembly to nominate a suitable person for appointment as Deputy Public Protector in terms of section 2(A) of the Public Protector Act 23 of 1994, upon the expiry of the term of office of the incumbent Adv K Malunga on 9 December 2019, reports as follow:



In terms of section 2(A)(1) of the Public Protector Act 23 of 1994, the President on the recommendation of the National Assembly shall appoint a person as Deputy Public Protector for such a period as the President may determine at the time of such appointment but not exceeding seven years.



In order to facilitate public participation, the committee placed advertisements requesting nominations or applications for the position in all official languages in various newspapers throughout the country, as well as on the parliamentary websites.  The closing date for nominations or application was 20 September 2019.



Published names of all candidates with their accompanying curriculum vitae on Parliament’s website after reducing certain personal details on

26 September 2019.



Members of the public were given until 16 October 2019 to make submissions on the candidates. In addition, a civil society organisation conducted an online survey which asked the public to share its views with Parliament on the types of qualification skills and experience that the new incumbent should possess. The survey attracted 359 respondents.



The same civil society organisation also undertook a basic desktop evaluation of all the candidates and published the results online. The results of both the online survey and the desktop evaluation were submitted to the committee for information purposes.



Section 2(A)(4) of the Public Protector Act of 1994, sets out the applicable criteria for appointment as Deputy Public Protector.



In addition to these formal requirements, the committee identified the number of focus areas to guide it in evaluating that candidate’s suitability. These were qualifications, experience, knowledge, skills and values. The committee received 29 nominations or applications but three declined. On the remaining 26, six candidates did not meet the requirements if the position as found in the act and therefore were not considered.



On 23 October 2019, the committee shortlisted eight candidates. However, before the interviews took place, one of the shortlisted candidates notified the committee that he was withdrawing from the process. Once the short listing took place, all candidates were requested to complete a questionnaire. The questionnaire also contained a provision ... [Interjections.]



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Point of order, Chair!





rising hon member.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chair, I will appreciate if we can have some silence while the member is presenting his report.





member, it is noted. I have requested even the Whips to assist us in this regard and it doesn’t help us if the Whips themselves are part of the noise makers in the House. Continue hon member.



Mr G MAGWANISHE: ... in addition, the committee agreed that the shortlisted candidates be subjected to a security screening and that their academic qualifications be verified. The interviews were conducted at Parliament on 12 and 13 November 2019.



On 26 November 2019, the committee deliberated and agreed to nominate Adv Kholeka Gcaleka, for appointment as Deputy Public Protector in terms of section 2(A) of the Public Protector Act 23 of 1994.



Lastly, the committee would like to thank all candidates for making themselves available to be considered for



appointment as the Deputy Public Protector. Further, the committee would like to acknowledge the active involvement of members of the public and civil society in this process. I thank you.



Question put. That the nomination of Adv Kholeka Gcaleka for appointment as Deputy Public Protector be approved.






Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, African Christian Democratic Party, United Democratic Movement, National Freedom Party and African National Congress.



Declarations of vote:


Adv G BREYTENBACH: House Chair, hon members, in accordance with section 1A(d) of the Public Protector Act, Ms Gcaleka meets the criteria for the position of deputy Public Protector, and she has attained over 10 cumulative years of experience in the administration of justice and public administration. Ms Gcaleka worked as a



public prosecutor from 2004 to 2016, and from 2016 to 2018 she worked as a special adviser for the then Minister Malusi Gigaba, following him from Home Affairs to Finance.



In 2010, Ms Gcaleka was quoted as saying that there should be no concern around the then National Director of Public Prosecutions, NDPP, Menzi Simelani’s plan to close the specialised commercial crime unit and the assets forfeiture unit, amongst others. She was a vociferous supporter of Menzi Simelane who can only be described as a wrecking ball during his tenure at the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA. It was his state of obsession to close down all the best units dissipating years of experience in order to facilitate what is now known as state capture.



Instead of fighting for prosecutorial independence, Ms Gcaleka, as the then Chairperson of the Society of State Prosecutors, chose to side against the vast majority of prosecutors, together with Simelane. When Simelane set out to systematically decimate the capabilities of the NPA, Ms Gcaleka was his willing little helper. Instead of



fighting for the rule of law, for due process and an NPA member who prosecuted without fear, favour or prejudice, she actively assisted Simelane in destroying the NPA. She behaved in such a disgraceful fashion that two senior advocates resigned in protest.



When questioned about this at the interview, Ms Gcaleka was less than honest, denying that she never supported Simelane in this regard. [Interjections.] In 2017 when Malusi Gigaba was appointed by the then President Jacob Zuma to the position of Minister of Home Affairs, Kholeka was appointed as his special adviser. It was a controversial appointment due to 2010 comments about the restructuring of the criminal justice system. In that capacity she worked for Gigaba when he was found by the High Court to have lied under oath in the Fireblade application.



Ms Gcaleka, as his special adviser under these circumstances followed him to the Finance Ministry, when any self-respecting lawyer would have placed as much distance as possible between themselves and Gigaba, instead Ms Gcaleka so fit to defend him, the ethical



ramifications of this position alluded her during the interview.



The Office of the Public Protector is a Chapter 9 institution brought into existence to defend and strengthen our constitutional democracy. The Public Protector herself leaves much to be desired. It is no secret the DA has never supported her. To send another person of questionable ethics to a senior position in an office where integrity should be unquestionable is just compounding the problem.



Ms Gcaleka is not a good fit for this job. She is not that great person for this important institution and she would do nothing but add to the already serious problems existing in that office. This nomination and appointment was engineered by the ANC. They sang off the same hymn sheet during the interview process and again during the deliberations. They have disappointingly used their numbers to enforce this appointment.



Ms Gcaleka failed to disclose her prior connection with the ANC Youth League while she was civil servant, and



again, the ethical difficulty here eluded her, as it eludes most of you, I presume. [Interjections.] The ANC insists that Ms Gcaleka has the best interview; she did not. The ANC insists that Ms Gcaleka is the best qualified candidate; she is not. The ANC insist that Ms Gcaleka is the best candidate in all respects; she is not. During the deliberations the ANC could not help themselves by referring to Ms Gcaleka as comrade, twice. [Interjections.]



We were right about the current Public Protector; you were wrong, and no one would listen. We would be proven right about this appointment too. We do not support this nomination. I thank you.     [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Ms N TAFENI: House Chairperson, during our participation at the interview for the Deputy Public Protector, we voiced our support for Advocate Moshoeshoe Moshoeshoe.

She was the best amongst those interviewed ... [Interjections.] ... and her background working for SA Revenue Service, Sars, was going to add much-needed skills ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!



Ms N TAFENI: ... at the Office of the Public Protector. The imposed choice of Advocate Kholeka Gcaleka by the ANC makes a mockery of the important role the Office of the Public Protector is meant to play. It shows no respect for capacity, ethical leadership and commitment to the truth required of people who must occupy that position."



Kholeka Gcaleka was simply not the best candidate for the job. This is over and above her continued working with Malusi Gigaba even after the court found him guilty of lying under oath, which makes her ethically questionable. When asked about this, she proudly said that she did not see any ethical problems with having stayed to work with a person who lied under oath.



We take particular exception to this. As a qualified lawyer, she is supposed to have massive respect for the truth and was meant to properly advise her boss about the dangers of perverting the truth. The great significance of this seems to have escaped her. She also seems to



prioritise fat salaries for jobs she takes. She explained her move from the NPA to being a Minister’s adviser based on the prospect of a better salary.



The pursuit of justice invested in the Office of the Public Protector required a person who has prioritised the pursuit of justice over money. In the NPA she abandoned a key high-profile case elite counsel in the Richard Mdluli matter for a better paying job. We reject her recommendation and apart from that, the ANC is prepared to use its majority to impose on such an important office for someone as compromised as Advocate Gcaleka. [Interjections.]



Prof C T MSIMANG: House Chair, the position of the Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions in accordance with our current law is appointed by the President and upon the recommendation of the National Assembly for a period not exceeding seven years. As we are an open and transparent democracy, the considerable public interests and input received from the public and civil society organisations was welcomed and assisted the committee greatly in deliberations.



The subsequent shortlist of eight candidates was subject to further screening which included the verification their academic requirements. The debate was at times heated as regards the final recommendation to the President for appointment to the Office of the Deputy Public Protector. Advocate Kholeka Gcaleka’s prima facie appears to meet the required legal background and skill requirements for the position. Notice must however be taken of some of her past associations and it is here that we must caution Advocate Gcaleka of the position she will be filling should the President choose to appoint her that she should conduct herself in a manner that is beyond reproach. The IFP supports the report. I thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP would firstly like to thank Advocate Kevin Malunga, the present Deputy Public Protector whose term ends on 9 December for his years of service to the nation in that capacity. We notice concerns including declining quality controls and internal consultations and him distancing himself from high profile investigations.



We have also made a record that Advocate Malunga was relieved of many of his duties by the Public Protector who shifted him to training and capacity building, reportedly due to security clearance considerations. That said, we believe he still has a lot to offer the country and we wish him well in his future career. And it is also against this background that the candidate for the deputy Public Protector position were considered of the 19 candidates that met the legislative requirements, of which five were flagged from the outset by Corruption Watch, following a desktop vetting process.



The present nominee, Advocate Gcaleka, was one of them. Objections were raised to even her being shortlisted right from the word go, and the main complaint against her as raised during the interviews was her role in 2017 as the legal adviser to the then Malusi Gigaba who has been accused of facilitating state capture under the Zuma administration.



The advocate was also accused of supporting the then National Director of Public Prosecutions, NDPP, Advocate Simelane at the NPA who did great damage to the



institution and his appointment was later found to have been invalid by the Constitutional Court. However, the ANC members said that the advocate had a very good interview and I appreciate that I did not have the benefit of participating in that one interview due to other duties, however, it should be remembered that Advocate Mkhwebane also had a very good interview for the position of Public Protector and many of us were persuaded by the ANC to support her. We have learnt a hard lesson to be far more cautious - once bitten, twice shy.



There were a number of candidates who immensely impressed me personally during the interviews, including Advocate Moshoeshoe Toba. The person to be appointed to this position is and must be above all reproach – he must be a fitting proper person; a person of the highest integrity. In view of the fact that there are in our opinion far better candidates for the position, we would not be supporting this nomination. I thank you.



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair and hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services



nominated a replacement for Adv K Malunga as his term of office comes to an end on 9 December 2019. The nominated candidate, Adv Kholeka Gcaleka was shortlisted from eight other candidates for the position of Deputy Public Protector. All candidates were subjected to selection criteria that required such to be admitted as an attorney or advocate for ten years and so on. Individuals must be selected for this position, must be selected according to this principles outlined in section 2a (4) of the Public Protector Act of 1994, in order to ensure that this Chapter institution cements its oversight and accountability work of government.



The candidate, Adv Gcaleka is known to have been once a special advisor to the former and famous Department of Home Affairs Minister, Malusi Gigaba, while she might feel that the allegations levelled against her or brought against her by Corruption Watch are highly unfair, as UDM we feel that we have the important role as this House to safeguard these institutions with the best possible people. Adv Gcaleka must understand that the position must be used in this regard to protect the institution of the Public Protector as a vital Chapter 9 institution.



Many of you will recall that under President Jacob Zuma, it is this very institution that provided hope by upholding the values of the Constitution, as such Adv Gcaleka if appointed will be judged on the very action that she does and will be judged on whether the work she does serves the best interest of State and the Constitution of our Republic. In light of the gravity of the allegations that have been levelled against her as the UDM, we feel that a process should set in motion to first clear and make sure that all the dark cloud that is hanging over her is cleared before she is appointed into the position of Deputy Public Protector, which would include among other things, the vetting process. For this reason we do not at this point in time support the nomination of Adv Gcaleka. Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the NFP notes report that is tabled here in terms of the appointment of the Deputy Public Protector. Now, I think we are all the importance of this particular Chapter 9 institution and yes indeed processes were followed by the committee, it was advertised, people were interviewed, shortlisted and interviewed, some of them withdrew and I think at the end



of the day a name has been now come forward in terms of nomination for the position of Deputy Public Protector and that is Kholeka Gcaleka, that is if I am pronouncing it correctly, however, now I think what is very important is to understand that we cannot discredited somebody as a result of the relationship with somebody else.[Appluase.]



Let me tell you why I say this, if you want to do that then I think every member of the EFF should immediately resign because you are associating with leadership where there is the highest level of allegations of corruption, fraud and theft. You know...





Nk S M KHAWULA: Ngeke simele ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile u-Emam azothukana nabaholi bethu ibe ingekho into ebambekayo.[Ubuwelewele.] Angathi yena uma efuna ukwenza inkulumo-mpikiswano afune ukuphakama ngabaholi bethu. [Ubuwelewele.] Naye unayo inkohlakalo uqobo. Uma engafuni ukukwenza inkulumo mpikiswano akaveleahlale phansi ngoba ngizomphazamisa. [Ubuwelewele.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, take your sit now, us... order hon members! Hon members, hon members just calm down please...



Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: ...on a point of order House Chair...





take... I am busy dealing with this point of order, there after I will recognise you. Hon member, I listened to what the hon member had to say and he made a very broad statement in terms of the leadership of a certain political party, that is thus something that requires me to consult with the Hansard and see in what the context in which it was used and then I will come back to the House if necessary with the considered ruling. Why are you rising hon member?



Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Thank you House Chairperson, what I wanted to say is when members stand and they are actually putting forward a point of order, it must be based on a rule. So a member needs to quote on what rule they are actually rising on.





member, thank you, order hon members, hon Shaik Emam would continue please.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the nomination of Adv Kholeka Gcaleka, goes with one very important very important thing; she has never, ever been convicted by a court of law of any wrong doing. So, the same principle should apply to everybody, it can not apply to one organisation and not to the other. She has the academic qualifications, she’s got the experience, she’s got the knowledge ok, and I think given the challenges that the office of the Public Protector faces, particularly in the last 12 months, in the last 24 months, I think it is important that we give her the opportunity, I think that she knows and understands what is required from her, that she will conduct herself with the highest level of integrity. That she will ensure that she brings to book, particularly people in this House that might be lair, responsible for corruption, fraud and looting of monies of the innocent and the poorest of the poor.



So, I think hon what we need to do is, is to give her the opportunity to be able to go and serve us as the Deputy Public Protector, because if you want to talk about allegations, there is allegations against everybody in this world, all 57,6 million people and a hell a lot of allegations on my left here, the whole lot of them here. There are so much of allegations; if I had to go to – you will be shocked. NFP supports the nomination of the Advocate for the position of Deputy Public Protector.

Thank you. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, your time has expired.



Ms M S KHAWULA: Sit down, sit down!





members, order, order! Calm down hon members, calm down.



Adv H MOHAMED: Thank House Chairperson...





members! Hon member before you continue, take your sit please.



Adv H MOHAMED: Thank House Chairperson ...





before you continue, will you just sit please, just sit down. Hon members, there is a member at the podium who wants to deliver his input into the House, let’s give the hon member the opportunity to do so on behalf of his own political party. Continue hon member.



Adv H MOHAMED: House Chairperson, it is unfair for some members who were not even part of the process to come and cast aspersions on a candidate that have been recommended. The ANC rises in support of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services, which nominates the name of Adv Nompilo Kholeka Gcaleka for the recommendation by National Assembly to the President of the Republic as a Deputy Public Protector. Speaking at the African Regional Workshop of the International



Ombudsmen Institution in August 1996, our then President Nelson Mandela said following:



People must be encouraged to speak out against maladministration with the surety that their complaints will be taken seriously and in confidence. Only then will we be able to ensure that government is dedicated to the public service and a culture of efficiency and transparency.



The establishment of the office of the Public Protector is a critical institution supporting democracy as envisaged by the writers of our Constitution, must ensure that the realisation of the wishes and aspirations of South Africans led by the ANC. The search for the Deputy Public Protector as we heard arose as a result of the eminent expiry of the term of office of the incumbent.

This initiation of the process to further upcoming vacancy was done in terms of section 2a of the Public Protector’s Act. The interview process as we heard earlier was transparent and civil society; this is the emphasis civil society was able to participate in full



and during the interviews candidates were tested for the skills, experience and professional knowledge.



The fact that the Constitutional Court judgement in the case of EFF versus the Speaker of the National Assembly and others, made the finding of the Public Protector binding, makes an appointment of a person of the necessary expertise, legal research and an ability to evaluate evidence, even more necessary. Among the candidates who were interviewed was correctly, yes Adv Gcaleka performed exceptionally well. She answered the question confidently and accurately as possible and she inspired the confidence of the majority of the portfolio committee.



It was evident that she knows the functioning of Public Protector’s Office. Advocate Gcaleka’s track record and qualification certainly indicate that she not only fits the requirement for the post of Deputy Public Protector but she will also excel in it. She was admitted as an advocate of the High Court in 2006, she is a skilled prosecutor who has served South Africa diligently in the National Prosecuting Authority, where she was promoted as



senior advocate and later as a senior Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions. She has also served as a special advisor to the executive authority in three different departments in legal policy, compliance and administrative matters.



As one with analytical and leadership skills and legal research experience, having conducted investigations, she will strengthen the office of the Public Protector. There should be no doubt that she is independent and she has the ability to perform function without fear, favour or prejudice with her youthful spirit, she is clearly passionate and motivated to serve our country.



The objections by the DA and the EFF in particular to this candidate are simply spurious; there is no credible evidence to suggest, that this candidate is not the best suitable person to be in apposition of Deputy Public Protector. Their objections are factually incorrect but no substance and why one may not find – it’s surprising that DA would not support a young black woman candidate. It is sad that they once again find it and aligns with the EFF today. [Applause.]








Adv H MOHAMED: The aspersions which have been cast on the person of Adv Gcaleka are not only unfair but have no factual or legal basis. She was able to clarify the issues which were raised in public domain. As the challenges regarding the racial discrimination in relation to the legal brief and how she supported the transformation agenda in the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, as Chairperson of the Society of Advocates at the time and not an individual in a form of advocate, the then South African National Director of Public Prosecutions, NDPP. She has also explained her role in the interview as an advisor to then Minister Malusi Gigaba in how the Fireblade case was initiated before her appointment, those are facts.



Hon Breytenbach, one wonders whether your objection to this experience candidate a former colleague of yours in the NPA, one wonders when she was busy concentrating on many court cases on court roll; you were planning to be a politician instead of concentrating on your role as a



prosecutor. How does it arise when the individuals exercise the right to move from one career to another becoming a problem? How does it arise that the history of ones political activism becomes a bearer to pursue a professional career in the public sector. This opposition, amounts to nothing else but an attempt to throw mud with the hope that some will stick.



The Constitutional Court case I cited earlier also said and I quote the following:



The tentacles of poverty run far wide and deep in our nation. Litigation is prohibitively expensive and therefore not an easily exercisable constitutional option for an average citizen, for this reason the fathers and mothers of our Constitution conceive the way to give poor and marginalised a voice and teeth that would bite corruption and abuse and that is the office of the Public Protector.



Linked to this Adv Gcaleka does not only have the requisite expertise and legal requirements for the



position of Deputy Public Protector. As a young black woman she knows poverty, she has experience being marginalised and is familiar with just how expensive litigation is in our country. She will protect the public. As the ANC we support the nomination of Adv Kholeka Gcaleka as Deputy Public Protector. I thank you.





member, order hon members! Are there any further declarations? None, hon members in terms of rule of 99, after a debate on question is concluded the presiding officer may postpone the decision of the question. This rule should also be viewed in the context of rule 98 that deals with a quorum. In terms of rule 100, consultations have been undertaken, I am informed. This item and item considered earlier on the Public Service Commission are therefore postponed; until after Order Eight which is the second reading on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill, this approach is informed by fact – order hon members! I am busy addressing the House. This approach is informed by the fact that today is the last sitting day of this session



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: House Chairperson may I address you please?






The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: I understand that you have the right as presiding officer to defer this vote until later. I find hard it to understand how you applying the rules to defer vote that has already been taken in this House to later, because as far as my understanding no decision taken by Chair can be retrospective once the vote has already been taken. So could I please just have your explanation on that?





have been informed that consultations have been taking place between the Whips, may I request ... no, no hon members calm down, it’s not the end of the world! What I will do hon member is that, in terms of the specific issue that you are raising in terms of the voting that took place earlier, I will ask the Whips to meet and to inform the presiding officer... order hon members! If you ask a question you must listen to the response, whether



you agree with it or not, that is something else, right, I am addressing your Chief Whip, please respect her!



Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition Party, I am thus requesting that the Whip of the ANC that went around, I think is the Deputy Chief Whip that was talking to different Whips, that you should meet as soon as possible and then before the sitting starts this afternoon to inform us of the outcome of those discussions that has taken place in the terms of rule 100 and then we will take a decision, however the decision on the question that was raised on this, will stand over until after Order Eight dealing with the adjustment of the Appropriation Bill. Well I request the Whips to meet please. Hon members we now proceed.






There was no debate.



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly adopted.






There was no debate.



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly adopted.







(First Reading debate)



Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chair, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, fellow South Africans, ladies and gentlemen, the African National Congress supports the 2019 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and 2019 Adjustments Appropriation Bill, hereafter referred to as the Bill. We also welcome the overall net adjustment effect to vote on appropriations totaling R14,868 billion.



The committee looked at whether expenditure responds to the terrible triplets of inequality, poverty and unemployment. We are also acutely aware that these challenges can only be overcome in the context of inclusive economic growth, a sustainable debt-to-GDP ratio and a supportive macroeconomic environment, especially supportive fiscal and monetary policies. Of greatest concern is the downward revision of the GDP growth forecast from 1,5% to 0,5%, and the growing unemployment rate of 29,1% is also problematic.



The following developments internationally and nationally continue to pose risks to initiatives to recover the economy: the Rand Merchant Bank, RMB’s, business



confidence index, which is 26 points and far below the 50-point neutral level; Statistics SA manufacturing

utilisation survey, which indicates that underutilisation is at 19,7%; trade wars between China and USA; Brexit; and imposition of further tariffs by USA on Brazil and Argentina.



Despite all this, the African National Congress prides itself in its unwavering commitment to using the budget to undo the unfortunate legacy of more than 350 years of colonialism and apartheid. We say this without any equivocation. Of the R6,3 trillion of government expenditure in the MTEF, 48% will be spent on social grants, health and education.



This will help South Africa, to, among other things, achieve the following: build schools; eradicate pit latrines; provide bursaries for learners from poor backgrounds, who are in most cases, black, from townships and rural areas; provide student accommodation; provide for NHI.



It will take a “denialist” of note to argue that this type of expenditure is anything else but pro-poor.



A sustainable solution to our macroeconomic challenges is nothing else but sustainable economic growth. We thus welcome the initiative of his Excellency, President Ramaphosa, with two investment conferences, raising more than R600 billion. The more than R865 billion infrastructure budget in the MTEF shows that we are committed to taking the economy back to a growth trajectory.



We agree with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, that, and I quote:



The need to build the required government capacity to manage infrastructure projects effectively, in order to ensure that economic benefits associated with capital investment were realised.



The progress in structural reform by our government will indeed go a long way in helping to grow our economy and also improve business confidence. There is no doubt that



the gazetting of the Integrated Resource Plan, the simplification of visa regime, the abolishing of the unabridged birth certificate for young tourists, upgrading of industrial parks and the acceleration of the licensing of the broadband spectrum will enhance business confidence, and thus help with the much-needed economic growth.



These, among others, will help with boosting tourism, improving our trade balance, increasing investment, earning much-needed forex and finally, increasing our economy.



It is important that we harness our resources and also identify leakages to our economy. If I can take a bit of a detour, let me briefly draw the attention of the hon members to the revenue leakages for both the economy and the revenue.



Mining companies sell their products to related companies free on board, FOB. This means it is the buyer who determines who is going to ship its products and at what price. The buyers are in London, The Hague or somewhere



in Zug. The buyers prefer their own shipping companies. When we import oil, the opposite happens. It is done on a cost and freight basis, CFR. The seller determines the carrier.



Without us changing this practice, the shipping industry will not grow, possibility of illicit financial flow will continue, our shipping industry will not grow, and job opportunities will be lost.



We are also calling on the private sector to assist with attracting direct foreign investments. The corporate scandals of Steinhoff, Tongaat Hulett, Cash and Carry, who sugarcoat their deception by calling them accounting irregularities, devalue the South African brand. The role of auditors in these companies must be investigated and be shared with South Africans.



Investors and other economic agents rely on audited financial statements. The Independent Regulatory Board for Auditors, IRBA, the regulator, must report to this Parliament about the role of auditors. The global



economic crisis of 2008-09 was also as a result of auditors failing in their roles.



These actions by some of these companies undermine the efforts of his Excellency, President Ramaphosa, to get investments in our country. While government is doing its part in creating an enabling environment for business, the private sector must also come to the party.



Let me state, so that we are not deliberately misunderstood, we accept this state of affairs, because it is the best under the circumstances.



During discussions on the MTBPS and this Bill, it was important that we afford the people of South Africa a voice to ensure that their views are heard. There has been public participation in this process.



Let us briefly look at the broader negative multiplier effects of underspending, which was our ... [Inaudible.]

... in the adjustments of appropriation.



Firstly, the intended beneficiaries are deprived of the much-needed service.



Secondly, the opportunity costs of that money, which is lying idle, are huge. The funds could have been used elsewhere.



Thirdly, the money which should be circulating in the economy is not, thus contributing negatively to economic growth.



Fourthly, we are running a huge deficit of about


R53 billion in our budget, to close the gap we borrow as a country, and pay interest. So we are charged for the money that we don’t use, and also contribute to the deterioration of our debt-to-GDP ratio.



Fifthly, and even more importantly and worrisome, we are denying the 29,1% people who are unemployed job opportunities.



The ANC government has said, and unequivocally so, that the budget is an instrument to correct the ills of



colonialism and apartheid visited upon the black people of this country for more than three and a half centuries. Therefore, failure to spend allocated resources undermines that noble objective.



The committee spent some time trying to understand why departments are underspending, yet most departments complain about being underfunded. We found the following are among the causes: poor budgeting; departments and SOCs are very thin on project-management skills; contract drafting and management is very poor; most importantly; there are no sanctions for failure to efficiently and effectively spend budget.



The role of Parliament in playing an effective oversight function must also be looked into. Currently, we are not reactive. The question which we must look at is: How do we intervene timeously to ensure that spending happens and critical projects are not compromised? In other words, how do we respond to amber lights rather than red lights? It does not help service delivery much to shift funds after the effect. That is absolutely important.



The relevance of what is taught at the School of Government seems to be at variance with what the country needs. Our recommendation is that we need to invest in the skills above - project management. We therefore call on the Minister Mchunu to look into this, to align training and skills urgently needed by government and our economy.



We therefore welcome the adjustment to the Budget, as tabled by the Minister of Finance, because among others, it takes money from where it is not being utilised to where it will be used. Please take note that I did not say, “from where it is not needed”. The people on the ground, as indicated above, are denied their rights because of the inability to spend.



The Bill entails rollovers of R344,9 million. Although this may be indicative of poor planning, the funds will still be used for what they were initially intended.



As I conclude, to appreciate what the government is trying to undo with MTBPS and the Bill, allow me to quote President Oliver Tambo when he addressed the World



Council of Churches in Holland in 1980. He said, and I quote:



For apartheid is truly diabolical, embracing as it does, all systems of inequality, discrimination against all blacks people on ground of race, denial of our right to self-determination, and our subjection to harsh and excessive forms of economic domination and exploitation, systems of inequality which are conscious and systematically maintained and reinforced, aimed at ensuring that the whites do, in fact, multiply and fill the earth on the basis of the debasement and enslavement of the blacks.



Lest we forget the legacy of the monster we are dealing with. The ANC supports the 2019 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and 2019 Adjustments Appropriation Bill. Before I sit, this report that we are tabling today has been thoroughly debated by members who attend committee meetings. Let me just pre-empt. I know hon Wessels will come here and start talking about this Bill. I have never seen him in single committee meeting, but he is going to



have opinions. That is where we discuss these issues and debate the issues and agree and disagree on these things. So, hon Wessels, I know that is what you will be saying.



We are very clear that this House, not he ANC, this House must hold everyone accountable that are able to do their work and spend their budgets how they are supposed to and what it was intended for. I thank you. I have one minute that I will donate to the ANC member. [Applause.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Thank you very much House Chairperson, the story of this budget and the national circumstances that surrounds and inform it is the story repeated so often around the world, of the inevitable collision between ideology and what is fair and right for the society.



Our country continues to suffer low growth, and in fact, a shrinking economy as confirmed by the Statistics SA yesterday, and continues to suffer ever-growing unemployment lines with nearly 11 million people unemployed now, and continues to suffer growing poverty, but still the government will not admit the truth that



everyone now knows; and I suspect everyone even in their own benches that the state control project has failed.



But our main objection to this budget has not been that it continues the lie of arrogant ideological stubbornness. Indeed, the Finance Minister is one of those who sees clearly the truth, and says plainly what needs to be done.



Our main objection is that this budget is so deeply and so indefensibly unfair to the 10 million unemployed South Africans and the many more millions living in poverty. It is simply wrong to ask the public, and particularly the poor, to carry the cost of your failed dogma. It is ethically indefensible.



The fact is, we can build a fairer society in South Africa. We can address the legacy that hon Buthelezi so eloquently described. We can build a society in which public resources are used to care for the poor, grow the economy, spread and expand opportunities to all. Let us assess it on that yardstick. Over the course of this budget process and debates over the last few weeks, the



DA has shown three things: firstly, that this budget takes money from basic services on which the public at large and the poor in particular, depend on daily. It redirects those funds from those basic services to the poor to bailing out of zombie state-owned entities; secondly, that this budget takes money from the pockets of working families and redirects that money to bailing out zombie state-owned entities; ... [Interjections.] ... and lastly ... [Interjections.] ...



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Hill-Lewis, would you just take your seat please? Yes, hon member, why are you rising?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon House Chairperson, this is the second time that the hon Shabalala has shouted to my member at the podium that he is a zombie. [Interjections.] I ask that you ask her to behave and withdraw the statement. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order. Hon members, listen to the ruling. The hon member has used the word. The hon member, Shabalala has responded and I ask members to exercise maximum discipline when we refer to one another in the House. [Interjections.] Continue, hon member!



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: ... thank you House Chairperson, this budget does not present a credible plan to stabilise national debt. Indeed, it sees a further explosion in national debt of R1,5 trillion over the next three years, that will burden present and future generations of taxpayers with higher taxes to pay off that debt.



Over the next three years, just under 3 million children will be born in South Africa. They should be born into a country that offers opportunity, hope, and the promise of a fair society. Instead, they will be born with R500 000 in debts each to pay off on behalf of the state, before they have even taken their first breath.



So, this budget pinches from the poor, wrangles more from working families, and burdens new born babies. Taken



together, these three points show a budget which does not advance fairness in our society.



To answer hon Buthelezi; just simply extolling the legacy of apartheid at this podium, does not mean that you are solving it. If you read the detail ... [Interjections.] [Applause.] ... what you say cannot be true. It is at variance with the facts.



If anything, this budget advances inequality and deepens poverty. It fails all of the basic tests. That is why we will not support this budget and neither should this House. In fact, this House should not support any budget that contains bailouts for zombie state-owned companies. [Interjections.]



Eventually stubborn ideology is confronted by reality. The fact is that the state should not run an airline, and the fact is that the state cannot run an airline. I suspect that by the time we meet here in February, the state will not be running an airline. [Applause.]



This is a key test of credibility for the government and for the Treasury. If you capitulate, prostrate yourself before unions and offer more guarantees to lenders, you will show yourselves to be totally incapable of doing what is necessary to govern South Africa.



If you fail this test, then when you come back in February to present your main budget, you will have no credibility left. The SA Airways must be placed into business rescue to prepare it for break up and sale as soon as possible. [Applause.]



Minister Gordhan says that all South Africans must support SA Airways. That shows that even now, after

R20 billion in bailouts, he still cannot pry himself away from his ideology, no matter what it costs, the government must run it. Well, let me say no, no, no, Minister Gordhan. The most patriotic thing that every South African can do this Christmas is to help shut down SA Airways. [Applause.]



This will not be a rest for Christmas for the Minister of Finance. By February, he must deliver R160 billion in



cuts to the public wage bill, he must get debt under control, he must slash the deficit. And he must do it without cutting services to the poor and without taxing working families. That is what we judge him on today, it is what we will judge him on in February, and it is why we will not support this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mrs M R MOHLALA: Thank you House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, presented by the Minister of Finance. The main reason we reject the MTBPS is that, what was presented is nothing new. The policy statement represents new liberal, established defunct and reactionary economic approach that will take South Africa into deeper economic crisis.



The global economic growth is projected to average 3%, all advanced economies are growing at 1,7%, and emerging markets and developing economies are growing at 3,9%. But because of deliberate misguided policies of fiscal consolidation and high interest rate in an attempt to push ill-informed and failed neoliberal agenda of structural reform, we have an economy that is projected to grow at 0,7%, which in real terms is not growing.



Statistics SA released a report yesterday showing that South Africa’s economy contracted by 0,6% in the third quarter despite the forecast Ramaphoria economists who projected growth, while the country sinks further towards recession.



Unemployment is 29% of the labour force, more than


10 million of people who are capable and willing to work cannot find work, the consequences of neoliberal policies and failure to break the monopoly of key sectors in the economy like communication.



We have a gross loan debt projected to climb over


R3 trillion in the current fiscal year, and a debt to gross domestic product, GDP, ratio projected at 60,8%; the consequences of neoliberal policies and failure to build a capable and developmental state.



We have a budget deficit likely to reach 5,9% of the GDP; the consequences of neoliberal policies and failure to deal with illicit financial flows, base erosion and irrational corporate income tax and tax incentive schemes.



There are no believable plans to change the situation, instead, we continue with neoliberal and reactionary plans as proposed in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. These are wrong plans; the neoliberal and reactionary plans to private Eskom; wrong plans to privatise provision of basic services such as water and sanitation; wrong plans to privatise irrigation schemes.



There are no plans to deal with concentration of the banks, communication companies, and services in the hands of few white-owned companies.



There are no believable plans that say anything about 4th Industrial Revolution, in medicine, in communication, in banking, in provision of basic services or in construction of much needed infrastructure.



The reality is that the EFF is the only political party that has put real economic transformation agenda that has been embraced by all progressive forces in South Africa, in the continent and in the world. The EFF will continue with the nationalisation of the Reserve Bank. The EFF will table a comprehensive State Bank Bill, which will



culminate in the creation of a state-owned bank. The EFF will table a Sovereign Wealth Fund Bill, which will lead to the creation of a Sovereign Wealth Fund. The EFF will reintroduce the insourcing of Government Workers Bill in all spheres of government so that we begin to build state capacity and not rely on external consultants.



We are doing all these because we have come to the correct conclusion that the ruling party is dismally failing to manage and give direction to the economy. ...

you must listen sometimes because we are trying to guide you. [Time expired.] ... EFF is not a party of cowards, and we stand to categorically, emphatically and decisively to reject ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat now. Order, hon members, before I recognise the next speaker, you will recall that I requested the Whips to consult on the matter dealing with the appointment of the person recommended to serve on the Public Service Commission. The Whips have reported back to me that they could not reach an agreement on the matter. Thus, I rule that the matter stand over until next year. [Applause.]



Inks E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, credibility, predictability and discipline together with regular consultation and adjustments to the needs of our people must remain the key feature in our budget system which is arguingly one of the best in the world. This House will agree with me that systems are not the issue but that people are, particularly when we are not able to attract and retain competent, ethical and corrupt-free leadership and management. These issues manifest themselves when in the following. Tax collection is under strain which despite tax going up for many, but revenue is not growing. Policy changes occur without due consideration of financial knock-on effects to departmental budgets.

Fiscal deficits often result in instances where projects are poorly designed and then not delivered to our people on time. Many municipalities are still not settling outstanding debts to Eskom, water boards and to make the matters worse the very same municipalities cannot get rates and taxes paid. This places the entire system under strain. The chain of the entire economy is near broken when the key links are missing.



Although we have a strong public financial framework in place we still lack a fully functioning outcome-based accountability and service delivery responsibility as regard the officials in our senior Public Service.



We sound like a bunch of broken record continually repeating the fact that we fall short on consequence management and hush sanctions to those who continue to loot, steal and others who incur irregular wasteful and unauthorised expenditure. Procurement of goods and services remain another key weakness in our economic chain. Therefore the IFP once again call for the establishment of Chapter 9 integrity commission that will investigate, combat and prosecute corruption in South Africa.



Hon Chairperson, to conclude, infrastructure must be modernized, bulk water infrastructure maintenance must be done regularly, spending on basic education must focus on providing good quality education, state-owned enterprises, SOEs, must be stabilised through public- private partnership and corruption must be rooted once and for all. We must restore Public Service excellence



and we must ensure that we turn our leadership and management with integrity. The IFP supports the Bill.



Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chairperson, the hon chairperson of the committee, hon Buthelezi, thinks that I cannot speak on this budget because I do not attend his committee meetings. I don’t have to attend his committee meetings to be able to count and to be able to see that the ANC’s numbers do not add up. I do not have to attend to his committee meetings to know that this is not a proper budget. I do not have to attend any of his committee meetings to know that this is only a budget that is saying that we are so deep in trouble that because we have the wrong priorities for 25 years. It is a budget that says that we are so deep in trouble because for 25 years we allowed public entities, departments and all spheres of government to be looted, looted and looted and no consequences instilled. That is what I know and what South Africans out there can see without attending your appropriations committee.



Whilst the under exenditure in the most important conditional grants and in grants that are aimed to



actually do what is necessary to turn around our economy and improve the livelihoods of South Africans, hon Buthelezi says it is not because there is a lack of will, but he says that there is a lack of capacity. And I am glad to hear that. Why is there a lack of capacity? Is it something that magically appeared? No, it is because for

25 years you appointed wrong people. You appointed people that were not interested in doing the job. This budget aims at cost attainment, but it is too late.



Hon House Chair, I said the following in the previous speech when hon Jackson Mthembu was not in the House. It is because of the statements like hon Mthembu made like in 1997 when he said in defending the purchase of BMWs for his provincial departments when he said, I am leader in my community do you expect me and do you expect me to drive a 1600. People out there are suffering because of that type of attitude that was going on and is going on for 25 years.






Die goue gans is moeg van goue eiers lê. Belastingbetalers kan nie die regering se mislukkings finansier nie.



Besighede speel bankrot. Die landelike ekonomie is op sy einde, as gevolg van die feit dat die infrastruktuur val en as gevolg van geen ekonomiese ontwikkeling nie.



Die feit van die saak is dat u op inkomste van die privaatsektor staatmaak. Die agb Buthelezi verwys ook daarna dat die privaatsektor die ekonomie moet red. Die privaatsektor moet die land deur investering en beleggings red, maar hoe kan hulle, as u hulle die heeltyd kritiseer?



U en u rooi maatjies sê dat al die probleme as gevolg van die privaatsektor is, maar dan staan u bakhand by die privaatsektor om hulle geld te kry.



Besighede onttrek uit hierdie land uit. Besighede sal weggaan as gevolg van u houding teenoor die privaatsektor. Dit is slegs die privaatsektor wat werk kan skep.



As ons by Eskom kom, wil ek net een stelling maak: Dit is skokkend dat die Departement van Openbare Ondernemings, wat veronderstel is om oorsig oor Eskom te doen, self R13,2 miljoen aan Eskom skuld.





The Department of Public Enterprise owes Eskom


R13,2 million. That is unacceptable! You owe yourself money and you don’t pay your outstanding debt. That is why our entities are failing and that is why this economy will not be saved unless there is act of repaying and you become a responsible government. I thank you. [Time expired.]



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP believes that if the country needed any further wake up call, it was yesterday's announcement that the South African economy had shrunk by 0,6% in the third quarter. That outcome, which is far worse than the market had expected, is likely to raise fears that the country may manage only marginal growth this year if any growth at all. This is against the Treasury's forecast of 1,5% growth in February's Budget.



The Medium-Term Budget Statement highlighted that the country is trapped in a vicious cycle of weak growth and mounting debt that the Minister acknowledges and the committee acknowledges this. There is a two-pronged challenge facing the nation - reinstating fiscal credibility while restoring economic growth. Both these issues will require hard and unpopular decisions.



Government has been pumping billions of rands into poorly performing state owned companies, SOCs, and this has resulted in a widening budget deficit of 5,9% of GDP. The national debt as other speakers have indicated is greatly concerning, at present R3 trillion set to increase by 50% to R4,5 trillion in the medium-term. This results in higher debt service cost which in turn in turn crowds out much needed social spending on health and education and security.



The recent crisis at SAA should have served as the proverbial canary in the coal mine. The call for collective responsibility to save the airways not only beggars belief, but is ludicrous, given the mismanagement, corruption and cadre deployment that SAA



and so other SOCs have been subjected to. Thankfully, the Treasury has attempted to hold the line, but the political pressure intensifies.



As growth continues to come in at below projections how do you balance the books? A R150 billion cut in expenditure is required to place the country on a fiscal sustainable path, and obviously that where hard decisions come in. Cuts will be required to the unsustainable wage bill. As these cuts will be difficult and unpalatable, the only alternative is again to stimulate economic growth. But this in itself is very difficult. The one way of hope obliges the National Treasury’s economic growth document. Those aspects, Minister, can be implemented should be ministered and well done on those aspects that have been implemented.



To conclude, there are some positives but hard decisions are necessary. The fiscal cliff awaits those that continue to kick the can down the road. Hard decisions are necessary. We need good stewardship, and we need servant leadership. This is what the country is requiring



at this stage and we trust that those decisions will be made without any further delay. I thank you.



Mr S N AUGUST: Hon Chairperson, GOOD supports the attempt to get South Africa out of the debt trap but it is time for government to stop talking and start implementing its plans. When implementing, it is critical to consider how we could spend our hard-earned cash better.



We are reassured by the increase of R1,2 billion to the Department of Home Affairs to improve services; of increases to growth-creating infrastructure and of budget cuts that seem to indicate more efficiency in some departments.



But we are concerned by some budget cuts to the Department of Basic Education, Department of Health and the SA Police Service, SAPS. These are very important delivery departments, and we need to mitigate the impact of the cuts on service delivery. We need to ensure that the crime fighting capacity of our police is increased especially to fight gender-based violence. We cannot fix



this country if we carry on bailing out mismanaged, corrupt state-owned enterprises, SOEs.



The bailouts are happening at the expense of the people of this country. We need to take action to stop the bleeding. The government bail outs are very expensive Band-Aid plasters that don’t address the cause of the infection. It is time to take serious action on Eskom, SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, and the SA Airways, SAA. Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, let me start off by bringing to the attention of this House the comment that was made by the now new leader of the DA, the hon John Steenhuisen, and he said something important, something that I have been calling for a very long time, that yes I think what he said was that they need to change the approach and find more workable solutions with everyone in this House in the interest of the people and this country and I want to congratulate you for that, sir. [Applause.]



Because this is what we need, not come here and grandstand and try to score points but wherever there are challenges and problems to work together in finding solutions so we can create a better life for our people.



Now, we are all aware that economic growth is down, revenue collection is down and that the shortfall is going to be something like about R52,5 billion, we know that as well. We also know that over R62 billion in irregular, unlawful and fruitless expenditure, we also know that the debt service cost is going to be running into R240 billion. And we also know that there are hundreds of billion, at least about R200 billion that is being lost as a result of price-fixing or not getting value for money, we know that.



You know I want to say to the Minister and particularly to the Speaker that is here today, Speaker, many of our Members of Parliament and the legislatures are going all over the world travelling on educational tours. Maybe we need to send them to Ethiopia and Rwanda who in Africa have the highest growth rates. Maybe that is where we can rather learn from and take ... and see what they do



differently to what we are doing rather than going to Europe and everywhere else at those high cost to us.



Another matter that I want to draw to the attention of this House is illicit financial flows particularly with offshore companies that are showing losses here and taking monies out of the country that seems to be a serious challenge. Another issue is – and Minister you said this to us the other day – that there is about 30% of employees not at work and it seems to be all over. It then means that you are losing about I would estimate about R600 million a day because people are not at work and getting paid for it.



So, tell me, how can the country change? How can we create a better environment? How can there be economic growth? I think we need to close these gaps. We need to come together united again as hon John Steenhuisen has said and let’s find solutions together. The NFP supports the report. Thank you.



Mr X S QAYISO: Hon House Chairperson, the debate on the Adjustments Appropriation Bill and the Medium-Term Budget



Policy Statement takes place in a particular national and global context. The economy is characterised by contradictory tendencies in terms of human development as a result of neoliberal capitalism. This has exacerbated longstanding structural problems in the economy, evident through poverty, unemployment and inequality skewed along racial lines.



It has been our responsibility as the ANC to ensure that our economy performs despite these challenges imposed on the working class by monopoly capital which the DA is part of. The National Development Plan states that our country’s economy needs to be rescued through a social compact and actions to realise Vision 2030. Social compacting should also be founded on an appreciation by the business community to deal with the root causes of poverty and inequality. The ANC welcomes the fact that health remained a priority for Adjustment Appropriation and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, accounting for 13,9 percent of the total consolidated expenditure. However, while the ANC supports government’s commitment towards universal access to healthcare, it is concerned



about the slow pace at which the National Health Insurance, NHI, was being rolled out.



Challenges on the implementation of NHI includes poor performance of the NHI conditional grants; continuous changing the purpose of the NHI from a direct to indirect grant; and ongoing policy uncertainties with respect to the role of various players, the flow of funding and applicable health package.



An amount of R2,8 billion had been reprioritised within the NHI indirect grant to fund critical health professional and community services posts. As much as the ANC supported this initiative, it recommended that there must be a clear and direct link between filling posts and the implementation of the NHI. The implementation of the National Health Insurance as a policy change in the health sector offers some potential for rural-proofing by creating work opportunities while simultaneously ensuring that rural populations gain equal access to health services when compared to those living in cities. To gear for the implementation of the NHI, the government can focus on ensuring that rural amenities such as clinics



and hospitals are upgraded and remain well-maintained. By focusing on rural infrastructure, job opportunities in the construction sector can be created. For the job opportunities to accrue to rural citizens genuinely, a well-designed programme that offers the opportunities to people to receive high-quality training in artisanal skills is required. Cheers!



The ANC is also proud that 16% and 7% of the total consolidated budget were allocated to the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Higher Education, respectively. We continue to demonstrate that education remains a priority for the ruling party. The government remains committed to improving the quality of basic education. Over the medium-term, R3,8 billion is allocated to this grant to replace 82 inappropriate and unsafe schools and provide water and sanitation to 325 and 286 schools respectively.



In addition, the education infrastructure grant is allocated R31,7 billion to build new schools, upgrade and maintain existing infrastructure, and provide school furniture. The President of the Republic of South Africa



and of the ANC, during the state of the nation address called on all of us to priorities job creation to address the high unemployment amongst our youth. It is clear that skills development and empowerment of the youth forms a critical element of addressing the youth unemployment.



This is because the ANC government is fulfilling the calls of the Freedom Charter for free education with its basis on merit. First-year students from poor backgrounds continue to receive free education across our higher education institutions as we speak. This is a great and responsible allocation by the ANC government indeed, and only the ANC can achieve such.



As the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development received 1,8 percent of the total consolidated budget; as the ANC we are of the view that government’s agricultural support programmes needed to prioritise small-scale commercial agricultural production. As stated by the President that the ANC is committed to delivering quality public services, we are committed to using political platforms to legislate guidelines and consequence management rules, as the responsibility for improving



public services could not be institutionalised within the budget framework. Provinces and municipalities play a crucial role in advancing the economic development of our people irrespective of our precincts. Fully functional, well-equipped schools produce a vibrant and employable workforce. Smarter health systems develop and maintain the health of the workforce. Provincial agricultural departments and support to farmers can stimulate rural development.



However, we are concerned by the impact of drought, floods which have hit our provinces and that have affected production in the agricultural sector. We welcome the fact that government has allocated R241,9 million for emergency work and R65,3 million through Sedibeng Water Board for the regional sewer

system. In conclusion, the 2019 Adjustments Appropriation Bill and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement were planned under tight macroeconomic conditions in the country. So, the ANC wholly supports this 2019 Adjustments Appropriation Bill and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. It is our responsibility to deliver and not make any excuses. It was our policy ... it is the



policy of the ANC that the commanding heights of the economy will be nationalised. It is not the policy of the EFF. The EFF came after when we had resolved and taken this resolution in our conferences. The DA is responsible for the mess-up to this country of the ... [Inaudible.] So, the ANC supports this resolution. Thank you very much, Chair. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Chairperson, Marcus Garvey’s classic warning that one cannot simply grow beyond one’s thoughts is as relevant today as it was decades ago. Our priorities to boost sustainable economic growth must be informed by shared values, a common vision for the country and an unflinching commitment to our people.



As it stands, the national debt is too high and is expected to rise in the next three years. We have also been told by the Minister that the national debt will most likely exceed 70% of GDP by 2022-23.



What is worse is that our economy grew at 0,5% in 2019, compared to the 1,5% forecast in February. We can no longer rely on dogmatic ideological ways. We are worried



that there are still barriers to entry for emerging small- and medium-sized enterprises. The evergreen contracts in our malls have been flagged by the competition authorities. We are deeply concerned that some employers have not meaningfully shaped the discourse on economic transformation. The Commission for Employment Equity report implicates the private sector for failing

to implement the provisions of the Employment Equity Act.



Our priorities compel us to transcend petty political gimmicks and primitive social dogmas. We have engaged with the Minister’s paper entitled “Economic transformation, inclusive growth and competitiveness: Towards an Economic Strategy for South Africa”. Of course we have to hit the ground running and transform our society for there to be inclusive prosperity for all people.



State-Owned Enterprises, SOEs, like SAA and Eskom are failing the country. We are therefore looking forward to the plan called: Towards a growth agenda for the South African economy. This is a plan that involves structural reforms like selling off Eskom’s coal-fired power



stations and the establishment of an independent transmissions company for SAA in terms of key economic challenges and to boost the economy.



The issue of loaning to Eskom is not something that can be taken home, because Eskom is struggling financially. So, we wonder where Eskom will get money to be able to pay it back. Only unless the economy of the country grows will Eskom will be in a position to pay back the money that has been loaned by the Treasury. We support. Thank you very much.



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, Al Jama-Ah supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill in light of the fact that we have been given the assurance by hon member Buthelezi that they address inequality and unemployment and that they are pro poor. So, his name is in the box to ensure that that happens.



The hon Minister of Finance let the country down because he did not take out the 30% of fat in this budget, as he promised party leaders when we met.



Hon House Chair, legislatures in the worst days of apartheid were rocked on rare occasions by an hon member. Not long ago the country was rocked by a member of the big six of the ruling party at the height of the democratic dispensation in South Africa. Both the hon member and the member of the big six said that the Cape Flats and its people – the so-called coloured community – were the Cinderella of South Africa. This was headlined in an Afrikaner right-wing publication during apartheid and today is in the headlines in every media. This statement and budget do not address these blots against the first five Parliaments. The Sixth Parliament must address this and put in place reparations for the coloured communities on the Cape Flats. There should be a form of affirmative action and preferential treatment.

Parliaments after parliaments since 1948 have harmed my community. There must be a change in the mindsets of many hon members in this House. The Minister of Human Settlements made the allusion to the fact that many members lack loyalty to deliberation ideology.



The poor in the coloured community has not tasted freedom


25 years into our democracy. The Sixth Parliament must fix this crime against the coloured community.



Mr A N SARUPEN: Chair, the budget in terms of the Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement and Adjustments Appropriation Bill is not pro poor. It is pro poverty.

Anyone who disagrees with this statement is a denialist of note.



I’m glad that my committee chair, the hon Buthelezi, agrees that government must create an enabling environment for growth. But of the seven quarters since hon Ramaphosa became President, we now know from ... [Inaudible.] ... four of these quarters have seen an economic contraction. The President has ushered in no economic reforms, and this adjustment budget will perpetuate manifest unfairness that the ANC has ushered into society and it shows that the new dawn is fast reaching its sunset.



There are R25 billion-worth of upwards adjustment in this budget, but R16 billion of this was already earmarked in



the Budget Speech for State-Owned Enterprises; 64% of the adjustments are going to broken, corrupt and captured State-Owned Enterprises. The SABC will take R3,2 billion; Eskom will take R5 billion; Denel will take R1,8 billion; SA Express will take R300 million; and SA Airways, SAA, will take R5,5 billion. But, of course, SAA has already burnt through this money, and insurers are refusing to cover SAA. Ticket sellers of flights are refusing to sell SAA tickets.



SAA, like every other State-Owned Enterprise being bailed out, is a case study in the manifest unfairness in the budget process. Their endless thirst for cash means that the resources that South Africans so desperately need are being siphoned off in the name of an outdated economic model that must come to an end if the fiscal health of this country is to be restored.



An additional R1,5 billion in this budget is being allocated to debt-service costs. That is an additional R1,5 billion in interest payments, because, again, the Eskom special appropriation blew the deficit wide open.



An amount of R4,8 billion is also needed to be found because planned downward adjustments were not affected. In other words, the so-called savings from merging departments never materialised because the state keeps its millionaire middle managers and bloated administrative staff in place at the expense of public services.



To pay for all of this, the R13-billion contingency reserve is being wiped out. Now, the intention of a contingency reserve is to ensure that funds are available in the case of a major national emergency, but instead we are using them for bailouts. Where is the manifest fairness in this?



There is a major national emergency that these funds could and should have been used for. It’s called the drought. And the contingency reserve could have been allocated drought alleviation. Instead, we are seeing the decimation of agriculture and entire towns reaching day zero, with no concern from this government and no adjustment budget to help people across our country deal with the drought.



Unemployment is a national crisis, and the longer people remain locked out of opportunity the more this government creates the space for opportunistic populism. But this budget will cut R157 million from the Jobs Fund – again, another year of underspending on the Jobs Fund – due to just poor administration.



The adjustment budget will leave the massive R2 billion VIP protection budget untouched, because all of the executives here need as much security as they can get to protect them from the people who vote for them - I don’t understand that - but this adjustment budget will cut R300 million from the Small Business and Innovation Fund. Where is the manifest fairness in that?



All we can conclude from this adjustment budget is that the ANC remains committed to a path of bailouts, big spending in the wrong areas, an endless thirst for debt and little concern for the cares and concerns of all South Africans. So, the DA rejects this unfair, no-good, very bad adjustment budget. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Chairperson and hon members, the ANC supports the Adjustments Appropriation Bill and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS. In his state of the nation address, President Ramaphosa said, “Our economy is not growing. Not enough jobs are being created. This is the concern that rises above all others.”



This debate is taking place in the midst of a challenging economic climate. Economic growth is low and is revised downward from 1,5% to 0,5%. We are currently facing a challenging macroeconomic environment internationally. So hon Sarupen, we know the challenges that this government is facing.



Given the current economic challenges, there is a need to discourage underspending on allocated budgets. As the ANC, we made a commitment to intensify the fight against unemployment, inequality and poverty. Hence, we cannot continue underspending on critical sectors that government has identified as an integral part of the transformation agenda, such as the industrial master plan.



The Appropriation Bill before us makes reference to undeclared unspent funds. This situation requires urgent attention. The legacy of apartheid is still with us. When I talk about the legacy of apartheid ... seated here listening to hon Wessels, this reminds me of the early hours of the 26th. In fact, the whole day of the 26th and the early hours of the 26th of September 1992 in Kempton Park, where they were fashioned as he is, fighting when we were agreeing on the Record of Understanding. They positioned themselves like this. There are no politics there, though they are just politics of empty anger without content. [Interjections.]



So South Africans, when you listen to such people you must know that you are dealing with angry people and nothing else. Just like these ... who are talking of collapsing Eskom. Do you know what they did? When we were getting ready to govern — which, with due respect to the ANC, is unfortunate — we focussed more on political power. And what did they do?






... ngabo aba bagqwetha izinto kooEskom, ngoku thina sijonge ukuphatha bona bayabelana ngapha, besabelana ngezinto zelizwe lethu. Ngobusuku obuphambi komhla wokuba sithi sikhululekile ...





... they were busy selling out serious entities that would up the standard of living of South Africans. Yet, today they come here ...





... baze kusixlela bonke ubuvuvu obu.





To the EFF, let me for a change wish you well in your conference, but what I urge you to do as you get to that conference, is to please debate and develop your own politically-informed resolutions. [Interjections.] Don’t steal ... Wait! Don’t steal the then ANC Youth League’s policies ... [Interjections.] ... and come ... [Inaudible.] ... it here.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order hon members!



Mr P P KEETSE: Order, order! I’m on a point of order! On a point of order! On a point of order! [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mlenzana, can you take your seat? Hon member, why are you rising?



Mr P P KEETSE: The hon member is misleading the House here. [Interjections.] There can never be any organisation that owns policies here.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, hon member, that is not correct.



Mr P P KEETSE: Even they themselves found them somewhere. It’s always like that. This thing is cumulative. [Interjections.] No-one has the monopoly on policies.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, can you please take your seat?



Mr P P KEETSE: You must stop misleading us, my brother, please.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, it is not allowed to say a member is misleading the House.

That is unparliamentary. I would kindly request you to withdraw.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson?



An HON MEMBER: Now why?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): To say that a member is misleading the House is unparliamentary.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson?






Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! The microphones are not working.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson?






Mr M N PAULSEN: That’s not unparliamentary. [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: All the microphones are off.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members


... [Interjections.] Hon members, it is not parliamentary to make allegations about a member misleading the House.



An HON MEMBER: What? [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: They are not allegations. [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: What he said are not allegations.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, I will leave it for now but I will definitely come back with it.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mlenzana, can you continue?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! Will you turn the microphones on?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The microphones are off.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen, why are you rising?



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson ... [Inaudible.] Hello?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen?



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I believe the member was correct in saying that the hon member over there is misleading the House. To put it crudely, he’s a liar!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen! I have already ruled on that. Thank you. Sit down!



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon Chief Whip of the Opposition?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, House Chair and I’m sorry to interrupt the speaker. However, we are about to set a very dangerous precedent in this House. It is certainly not against the rules to accuse someone of misleading the House if they are deliberately misleading the House. What should happen is that the House Chair makes a ruling as to whether or not the member is misleading the House, and can refer that particular action to the Rules Committee. [Interjections.] However, what cannot happen is that this House adopts the



precedent saying that someone is misleading the House is not allowed according to the rules.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. I have made a ruling on that and I said I’ll come back to the House.





Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Sihlalo, ndiyakucela tata kudala ndiphakamisile.



USIHLALO WENDLU: (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Andikubonanga mhlekazi.





Mr N L S KWANKWA: What would’ve been out of order here is a situation where the member had said the hon member was deliberately misleading the House. He did not say that the member was deliberately misleading the House. He is within his rights to say the member is misleading the House.






Uyaphazama tata. Ndiyabulela.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon member, but you will also note at the same time that I said I will come back to the House to verify that. [Interjections.] If I have erred then I have all the right to come back and verify it with the House. [Interjections.] Thank you very much.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Sorry Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Hill- Lewis, why are you rising?



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Sir, while you were speaking the hon Paulsen said into his microphone — but I don’t think that you heard it — to put it crudely, the member is a liar.

Now, that is unparliamentary ... [Interjections.] ... and I would ask that you listen to the Hansard and rule on that as well please.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon member. I will listen to the Hansard and come back with that. Hon tata Mlenzana, can you continue?



Mr Z MLENZANA: The legacy of apartheid is still with us because black people are still the hardest hit. Women continue to be the most burdened. The following Living Conditions Survey by Statistics SA proves my point. Adult females experience higher levels of poverty when compared to their male counterparts. More women are unemployed compared to their male counterparts. Unemployment is 7% higher. According to the Commission for Employment Equity’s 19th annual report, whites ... Listen to this one. Whites hold 66,5% of top management positions; Africans hold 15,5%; the coloured people hold 5,3% and Indians hold 9,7%. Men hold 76,5% of top management positions while women hold 23%.



This is abnormal. Let there be consequences. This complete disregard of South Africa’s laws by monopoly capital should not be allowed to continue unabated.



The ANC welcomes the recapitalisation of state-owned companies. I don’t want to talk more about Eskom as I already indicated ...



An HON MEMBER: Why not?



Mr Z MLENZANA: ... that you have people who brought Eskom and other state-owned entities to where they are, and now they are becoming ... [Interjections.] ... the clever ones. However, let me pass that one. [Interjections.]



Energy remains a pivotal variable to economic growth; yet, the high price of electricity remains a major challenge. Hon Ministers, the ANC welcomes the work done by the government’s economic cluster. The cluster is busy looking at cost drivers. Coal and renewable Window 1, 2 and 3 are at heart. Government is engaging both these groups to lower prices and positive outcomes of these engagements will give government space to apply ... lowering of administered prices.



Before my time ends, let me talk to business South Africa because business indicated to government that they should



address some critical issues so as to improve business confidence, and we welcome the progress made by government in this regard.



Now we are talking about the release of the new Integrated Resource Plan, the infrastructure fund, the simplification of the visa regime, the abolishing of unabridged birth certificates for young tourists, the upgrading of industrial parks and the release of the licensing of high demand broadband spectrum.



Let me quickly rush to water because to me and all of us, water is life and sanitation is dignity. So, water security is very critical for socioeconomic development. Hence, we urge government to move with speed to deal with the decaying, old and overburdened water infrastructure. The World Health Organisation, WHO, and the UN Children's Fund, Unicef, in their 2017 joint monitoring programme state that improving a household’s water and sanitation access impacts positively on the economy at a broad and macroeconomic level.



In my last minute, the ANC welcomes the fiscal consolidation drive by the Finance Ministry. These will ensure that current government debt payments are not deferred to future generations. The national democratic revolution is still on track. Hence, the ANC supports the Adjustments Appropriation Bill and the MTBPS.



As we are going on both the constituency and leave periods, I think it is high time that we go out there and tell South Africans the true state of affairs. [Interjections.] It is not going to assist in going there and posing as if all is well when we are struggling.





Abacinezeli basicinezela kangangokuba abaninzi bagqibela begqwetheke ingqondo. Ndiyafuna ke ukuba sithi xa sigoduka – andifuni ke ukuthetha naba bantu, ndingathetha nani kuba nina ningabantu nje ekungathi ethubeni xa kuphele imisindo niphinde nibuyele ekhaya ... [Uwelewele]





... because ... [Interjections.] ... you know that you are driven by ...





... into enye ethi ...





... economic freedom in our lifetime which was driven by your Ronald Lamola of the time ... [Interjections.] ... who will remain your leader ...





... kuloo ndawo nihleli kuyo.





Lamola will always lead you. [Interjections.] I thank you Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, when the shouting has subsided let’s come back to what the purpose of this discussion is. It is the Consideration of Report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations which performed its functions guided by the Public Finance Management Act, Act 1 of 1999, section 30 subsection 2; which states amongst others, that the adjustment budget may provide for significant and unforeseen economic and financial



events affecting the physical targets set by the annual budget - unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure recommended by a committee of Cabinet - an expenditure in terms of section 16 which governs the use of funds in emergency situations such as the one we had to invoke for Eskom.



Money to be appropriated for expenditure already announced by the Minister, during the tabling of the annual budget, in certain circumstances, an amount to be allocated for the three years of the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF period, for a specific purpose, will be announced by the Minister when the annual budget is tabled. But the details of the annual allocations are only decided later.



Next; the shifting of funds between and within Votes; the utilisation of unspent funds, under the main division of a Vote to defray increased expenditure in another main division in terms of section 43 of the Public Finance Management Act and section 5 of the Appropriations Act of 2019 which governs the use of movement of funds and then the rollover finally of unspent funds from the preceding



year. I thought I should bring the House back to the main purpose of this conversation and when everything else has been said, which might be of extreme relevance or otherwise.



My task, therefore, is very simple given that the day is going to be much longer with the Voting. I stand here to thank, on behalf of the Ministry of Finance, the National Treasury and my Cabinet colleagues, the standing committee on appropriations for their work and report.

And, to appreciate very much that a debate did ensure in the committee. Some agreements were reached, although there were still many areas of disagreements. But I thank you nevertheless for putting time aside to honour your responsibilities.



Finally, in particular, I thank Mr Buthelezi. I noticed that there are many hon Buthelezi here. So I meant to thank the hon Mr Sfiso Buthelezi, for leading the committee to come to the conclusion they have done, I thank you very much. Hon Chair, thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Bill accordingly read a first time.






(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I wish to thank the parties for advising the staff on which Votes they will record their objections and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process for this session.



Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of a question and answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustment has been made and in turn, members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers in respect of these adjustments. Each party has been allocated a global time for all Votes.

Members of the executive have up to two minutes to respond to questions per Vote.



Hon members, there have been requests from parties that in some instances they will use their allocated time to make declarations instead of asking a question. This will be allowed. Naturally, where a declaration instead of a question has been made, there will be no expectations for a reply. Once a party’s time has expired they will not be allowed to put further questions. Members must please press the talk button if they wish to ask a question.



Hon members should please wait until I recognise them before putting a question. Thank you, hon members. I now put Vote No 1 – Presidency. Are there any questions?

There are no questions.



Hon members, Vote No 2. There are no questions on Vote No


1 and Vote No 2 has not been adjusted. [Interjections.]



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, if I may?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon member.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: There is no question but you have to ask whether there is anyone opposing and then each party will announce whether they agree or oppose. So, for example, I would like to lodge the objection of the DA.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, all is in order. At the beginning of this session I explained what is going to ensue. At the moment it is a question and answer session. The second part of this process will be what caters to your concern, hon Chief Whip. So, your concern will be catered for in the second session. For now we are focusing on the questions and they will be based on the adjustments or not the adjustments. So, we put ... [Interjections.]



Mr S N SWART: Sorry, House Chair, can we just have clarity. Are you also indicating declarations at this time as well within that time?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): In the second session.



Mr S N SWART: Is that in the second part?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Exactly. Thank you, hon member, in the second part of the process. Hon Swart, I am advised that for now those who want to put declarations can do so. So, you are allowed.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Excuse me, House Chairperson, there is now massive confusion and I will tell you why. It was explained very carefully in the Programme Committee that during this particular session there wouldn’t be declarations. What would happen is that questions would be posed to the Ministers because declarations have already happened when we had the BRR reports. So, what happens in this particular session is that a member has the ability to ask a question to the



Minister the Minister then answers, but there certainly isn’t an opportunity for declarations because that happened during BRRR. So, if I am confused I apologise but that is exactly what I understood from the Chief Whips’ Forum.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. Hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party? Order, hon members! Can we listen, please?





stand to second what hon Mazzone has said. At this time it is clarity seeking questions but not declarations.

Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I am getting the impression that you all agree with what the hon Chief Whips have said. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! We are at Vote No 2 and it has not been adjusted, in fact, it is not even reflected on the Schedule to the Bill.



I will now put Vote No 3 – Communications. Are there any questions? No questions, we continue.



I put Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Are there any questions? No questions.



I put Vote No 5 – Home Affairs. Are there any questions?



I put Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co- operation. Are there any questions?



I put Vote No 7 – National Treasury. Are there any questions?



Mr W M THRING: House Chair, the ACDP has a question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member?



Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chair, the National Treasury published the 2019 adjustment estimates of the national expenditure and the ACDP, like other organisations, expressed its concerns at levels of under expenditure by



some departments which impacts the poor as these departments failed to achieve key service departments.



Some of these departments include Basic Education, Higher Education, Water and Sanitation, Human Settlements, Energy, Correctional Services, Transport, National Treasury, State Security Agency and the South African Police Service, Saps.



With our economy having contracted for the second time this year, the role of government in playing a countercyclical role to help reverse the stresses of the economy has never been more important. It is the view of the ACDP that departments which fail to spend budgets allocated, particularly capital budgets, are working against economic growth and inadvertently become enemies of the poor. Does the Minister agree with this particular statement that departments which fail to spend their budgets are inadvertently working against the poor? I thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I fully agree that all budgeted for funds must be spent in the interest of the purpose



but also to contribute towards economic growth and development. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. I now put Vote No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. Are there any questions?



I put Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises.



Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member?



Dr C P MULDER: Hon House Chairperson, I would like to ask a question but I do not see the Minister. I do not know if somebody is acting on behalf of the Minister? [Interjections.] It’s the Deputy? Thank you, sir.



Dr C P MULDER: House Chairperson, I would like to ask in terms of the other adjustments. There are amounts of

R26 billion going to Eskom, R5,5 billion to South African Airways, R1,8 billion to Denel. What I would like from



the Minister is: Are there specific conditions attached to these further adjustments?





Chair, indeed there are conditions attached to the adjustments made to each of the state owned companies listed there. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon Deputy Minister. I put Vote No 9 – Public ... [Interjections.]



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair? Chair? Chair, here. Here, Chair, this side.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, where? Yes, hon Cachalia?



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: I would like to ask a question to the Minister in terms of Public Enterprises.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can I put it first?



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: You already have, sir.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, I have to put it first. I put Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises. Are there any questions? [Interjections.]



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Yes, sir, there is a question. [Laughter.] We are witnessing the spectre of yet another bailout for SAA. My question is generic in so far as it relates to the zombie enterprises that are in the departure lounge and specific in so far as it relates to SAA. When is the Minister going to develop the wherewithal to combat the unions and those who add fuel to the vehicle that drives us over the fiscal edge? We are running out of money, other people’s money and time.





Chair, underway the process is that of engaging all the stakeholders within the SAA family, that is inclusive of labour, management, suppliers with a view to leading them into bringing that airline into sustainability. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Are there any further questions on the Vote?



Ms J TSHABALALA: Yes, Chairperson, the ANC would like to ask a question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Welcome hon member.



Ms J TSHABALALA: Deputy Minister, the SAA Minister mentioned that SAA cannot remain the state of operation it finds itself, therefore, internal stakeholders and stakeholders, including the banks and the lenders must be engaged. The question is: When do we envisage this effective intervention to find its expression? Thank you.





of some of the measures necessary in the South African Airways, the Minister will be making an announcement in due course in respect of the path that will be guiding all the stakeholders towards a solution to the impasse that the company is facing.





Deputy Minister. Done? I put Vote No 9 again. Hon Cachalia has posed a question already. Isn’t it?



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: I have just asked it.





if you are available. [Interjections.]



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair, do I get a second dip?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon members. Sorry about that.



Discussion on Votes and Schedule Contd:


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ...


[Interjections.] You think so. [Laughter.] I put Vote No


10 – Public Service and Administration. Are there any questions?



Dr L A SCHREIBER: Chair, at the back here. House Chair, this side.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member.



Dr L A SCHREIBER: House Chair, I must just start off by expressing my dismay with the way in which this House and especially members on that side are systematically undermining the independence of the Public Service Commission. Just this morning, we saw the second attempt in two weeks by the ANC to recommend the disgraced cadre, Zanele Hlatshwayo in a transparent effort to capture the Public Service Commission, PSC. After two successive rejections, it is time to withdraw this incompetent cadre’s recommendation immediately. Now, just a few minutes later, we are asked to endorse a budget that that directly undermines the financial independence of the PSC. Although the PSC is supposed to be an institution with the same financially independent status as the Public Protector and the Human Rights Commission, its funding is in fact allocated via the Department of Public Service and Administration, the same department over which it is supposed to exercise oversight.



So let me directly ask the Minister, why is your government using the budget to compromise the independence of the Public Service Commission? Thank you.





Chair, there is no government that is undermining the financial independence or otherwise of the Public Service Commission. As a matter of fact, the Public Service Commission is piloting an amendment which we are not opposing in terms of their financial independence and that is underway. So, I do not know what the hon member is pointing to, and he knows this for a fact, unless he is just wasting time. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Any further questions on the vote? No further questions, we will continue. I put the Vote No 11 – Public Works. Are there any questions? There are no questions. I will continue. I will put Vote No 12 – Statistics SA. Are there any questions?






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): There are no questions. I put the Vote No 13 – Women. Are there any questions? [Interjections.]



Mr L MPHITHI: House Chair, hon Minister, it was revealed at the portfolio committee that the department is paying the salary of the Deputy Minister and her office, I would like to find out from you, what is the amount that the department is paying the Deputy Minister and her office? [Interjections.]





PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: House Chairperson, the appointment of the hon Deputy Minister is the prerogative of the head of state but which we are implementing at the moment. I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Are there any further questions on this Vote? No questions. I put the Vote No 14 – Basic Education.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Yes, hon House Chair, I have a question for the Minister, there appears to be a serious



challenge particularly with the blind in terms of the textbooks and the infrastructure in schools and it has been widely reported in the media this morning.



Could you kindly tell me what measures you are putting in place in terms of that? And I see you have got underspending in infrastructure and from what I have heard this morning there are some of these schools that are not conducive for those that are blind. Could you please tell us and whether those textbooks will be ready for when the schools open in January? Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Just before the Minister replies, is there any other question on ... hon member?



Mrs N I TARABELLA-MARCHESI: Chair, Minister, your response to my written parliamentary question of whether parents have an option to opt out from the Comprehensive Sexuality Education curriculum, you said parents have a right to opt out. Could you please with a “yes” or “no” are you willing to formulate ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela) Hon member from the EFF Plus can you take your seat. [Interjections.] Go ahead, hon member.



AN HON MEMBER: What party is that?



Ms M S KHAWULA: Chair, on a point of order:



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What’s your point of order?





Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyacela ... awuzame ukukulungisa lokhu, i-EFF i-EFF, angazi usihlanganisa kanjani ne-FF Plus



USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Bengithi ngithe EFF.



Nk M S KHAWULA: Cha! Xolisa! [Ubuwelewele.]



USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Umangabe ngithe i- EFF kusho ukuthi kufanele ngixolise kodwa ngikhuluma nge- FF Plus.



Nk M S KHAWULA: Cha! Cha! Cha! Cha! Cha!



USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Sengixolisile-ke.











The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): FF Plus! Yes FF Plus, MaKhawula, FF Plus. Hon member, could you please take your seat? [Interjections.] I will recognise you.

Sorry about that, hon member, you can start your question again. You can pose your question again.



Mrs N I TARABELLA-MARCHESI: ... or amend an existing policy and also ensure that it is implemented to cover those learners who opt out but receive an alternative sexual education curriculum deemed appropriate by their parents.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Is there any other question on this Vote? [Interjections.]



Ms B P MBINGO-GIGABA: Thank you, hon Chair ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can I recognise that hon member first? Hon member, from the FF Plus.



Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Chair, I would like to ask the hon Minister, three-quarters through the year of an envisaged

59 schools which should have been built, 11 are complete.


Of the envisaged 717 schools which would have been supplied with sanitation, only 63 were reached and with the water supply, out of 227, only 52 were reached.



Now, for the infrastructure grant for schools’ budget of R12,5 billion, only R14 million has been regarded as not been spent. I would like if those goals will actually be reached by the end of the year, by the fourth quarter.

Thank you, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Are the further questions on this Vote?



Ms B P MBINGO-GIGABA: Chair, we applaud the appointment of the technical staff that has been recently appointed to fast-track the progress on the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Development Initiative, Asidi. May the Minister give some indication as to the progress made on Asidi and how can the appointment of these technical staff impact on the delivery of the schools.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): There seems to be further questions.



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Chair, I just want to find out from the Minister, are there any attempts that are being made to encourage the schools to buy from the local businessmen more especially the emerging farmers? Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I take it that there are no further questions.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, on learners with special needs especially with disabilities we are working very hard with our provinces to improve the provision of Braille material but also there is a programme also in terms of just access and working out how we assist learners who really want to attend school in your normal schools to have integrated schools. But on Braille, we are making lots of progress and with technology; it is even helping us more.



When we roll out the ICT members, we are going to start off with special schools because technology helps us and it is much more affordable for provinces to use technology rather than use Braille materials because they are massive, expensive and it has been difficult but technology is helping us and we will make progress.



Though the question from the DA about Comprehensive Sexuality Education does not directly relate to this, but I thought, out of courtesy, I should say to the member, yes, if parents want their children not to learn what other children are learning, they will have to come to our schools, when it the class for that subject, come and



look after their kids outside, after the class, bring them back because there is no way you can manage a situation where learners have to outside ...



 ... I mean there are 40 kids in the classroom. If there is a parent who does not want to have their child to be taught that a buttock is a buttock, they will have to come sit outside with them and wait for us to finish that lesson and come back, that is where the opt out is. So, the next one in terms of incomplete schools, yes ... I just don’t have the figures with me but I can just generally say we did have lots of challenges around infrastructure where you find that, especially in the Eastern Cape, but not only in the Eastern Cape, there is this movement of your radical economic transformation group that disrupts infrastructure, demands their 30% but we are dealing with that with state security and I think we are making improvements.



But what has also helped us a lot because as the national department because infrastructure is not our mandate we had not put capacity but Treasury has given us specific funds now. They have allocated for us to set up a unit of



specialised built environment experts to work with our provinces and support them so I am very confident that with the appointment of experts now at national department, working with provinces, we will make progress which also responds to the question of the ANC that I am very confident that with the support that we got from Treasury to be able to appoint experts ... hhayibo [Time expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The time is up, hon Minister. Are the any further questions on Basic Education or I hope there were no further questions. I put Vote No 15



Mr B B NODADA: House Chairperson! House Chairperson!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, where are you?



Mr B B NODADA: On the left, on your left.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon member?



Mr B B NODADA: Are you not a lefty? Okay! Sure, Chairperson, Minister, the post-school education and training programme is intended to lose R900 million of which R750 million is meant for the infrastructure grant which enables institutions to build student accommodation, lecture rooms, libraries, expand internet access and build workshop centres and TVET colleges. We were promised 12 TVET colleges by 2020 but only one is being completed.



Considering the aforementioned budget reductions, what is the department’s plan to provide the necessary infrastructure needed for conducive learning especially safe, on-campus student accommodation? Thank you so much. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Are the any further questions? No further questions.





House Chairperson, of the 12 TVET colleges which were committed, three are actually operational and have been completed. I understand our arithmetic is not at the same



level. And of the nine which have not been completed they are all at different levels of completion from 70% to 90% completion and we are confident that we will complete all the 12 colleges by 2020 as the commitment has been made.



Of course, there have been challenges with regard to most of the projects but we are confident that completion will be achieved. Secondly, we remain committed in ensuring that free and safe accommodation is provided for all students or if not most students on campuses and most of the allocation that has been made towards infrastructure development the department has set up a unit in the department which is assisting both our TVET colleges and universities to ensure that we meet the infrastructure demand based on the budget allocations. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): We now go to Vote No ... [Interjections.]



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Thank you, Chair.






USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Cha mnumzane, cha mnumzane ...





... hon member, no hon member ...





... musa ukusibuyisela emuva.



Vote No 16 – Health – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 16 – Health



Questions on vote:


Ms S GWARUBE: Chairperson, same place you looked the last time. Minister Mkhize, the South African health system is currently in a critical and unstable condition. As South Africa considers how to achieve universal health care coverage, where all citizens are afforded the dignity of quality health care, we are being dragged down a dangerous path paved by bad legislation for an ANC ideological win.



South Africans are desperate for change and dignity. However, they have been misled by this government that change will come in the form of the flawed and unaffordable NHI Bill. Has the Ministers of Health and Finance agreed on how they intend on funding the roll out of NHI, considering the fact that the Finance Minister, a couple of weeks ago, stated categorically that NHI is unaffordable? [Applause.]



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, Minister ... [Interjections.] ... the understanding, particularly in the grant would be National Health Insurance. Could you tell us whether it is going to have an impact if we



continue in the mode on the roll out of the NHI, taking into consideration that every single human being in this country is entitled to universal health care and it must be introduced, whether we like it or not.



More importantly, Minister, if you remember my discussion with you, yesterday, of how a young woman of 26-years-old has a tumour and the private sector is asking for

R1 million just to do it. So, could you tell us, Minister, whether there is going to be an impact if there is underspending, particularly on the grants for NHI, on the implementation of the NHI and the roll out? Thank you.



Mrs M R MOHLALA: Minister Mkhize, patients get raped in hospitals. Doctors get raped in hospitals also. Not so long ago, a patient in Witbank General Hospital was murdered as he was about to be operated on; yet there is no intention in the adjustment to respond to the issue of security in public health facilities. What measures have you put in place for the safety of hospital staff, doctors and patients? What is the relationship of the



department with SA Police Service? Why is the security technology not being improved? Thank you.



Mr D M NKOSI: House Chair, a question to the Minister: In your annual performance plan, Minister, you actually have one of the key points raised there, of the 90-90-90 strategy on HIV. We were positively surprised to hear you last week announcing some of the districts in the country that have actually surpassed this 90-90-90 campaign; and also, an indication that there might be further announcements early in the year.



Now, this was supposed to have been at least achieved by 2020. Could you probably share with us: What has actually been the success story in this early achievement of the 90-90-90 strategy on HIV?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: House Chair, let me start with the last question. It is indeed true that we have a number of districts that are set to achieve the 90-90-90 target three that we are announcing in KwaZulu-Natal.

This is a target of people who are tested for HIV. Therefore 90% of them need to be aware – they should need



to know; another 90% must be put on treatment; and the other 90% must be virally suppressed. This is an achievement for the people of Ugu, uMkhanyakude and uMmzinyathi District Municipalities in KwaZulu-Natal.



Next year, by March, we have another 14 districts set to achieve this. The House will recall that President Cyril Ramaphosa asked us to find 2 million people who must be started on treatment and we believe that we are on course for that before the end of the year. So, that process is in place.



The second question relates to the rape and murders in the hospitals. Indeed, this is a very disappointing and problematic kind of development. However, most of these turn to happen where people come from outside and conduct these criminal actions inside the hospitals.



We have a strategy that we have worked with the Minister of Police and, in that process, we are continuing to discuss how to finance it because it is about bringing in the police, reservists as well as working with the security personnel in the hospitals. Also, we are



improving on the maintenance of the various hospitals in terms of cutting the bush and making sure that we have a clean environment around which these kinds of problems take place. We do condemn it when it ever happens as the case is in Witbank and the other hospitals.



In the case of underspending on the NHI grant, yes, the issues relates to the challenges of procurement that create delays. I want to assure this House that work is being done to strengthen the entire system so that the NHI is actually implemented. It will be implemented ... [Time expired.]



Vote No 17 – Social Development – put



Questions on vote:


Ms T BREEDT: Chairperson, hon Minister, it is welcoming that the Early Childhood Development Grant, ECD Grant, specifically the roll out of the sanitary towel project, is actually increasing and can actually be taken to the provinces. However, we see that the provinces are actually not implementing and that specifically these two projects are failing. How are you going to ensure that



with the increase of money that they are actually spending it correctly? Thank you.



Ms B S MASANGO: Chair, hon Minister, given your commitment to keep the department and its entities out of courts and focusing on its key mandate to support vulnerable members of our society, what is the hon Minister doing to ensure that the thousands of children who could be placed on foster care are given the dignity of growing up in a homely environment and connect to their foster parents so that there are no backlogs to place these children? Thank you. [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, with regards to the first question to the hon member of the

FF-Plus, it is important for us to work very closely with the provinces in particular as you might be aware that we have what we call a Minmec, which is a ministerial meeting between the provinces as well as the Minister, including meetings of the officials.



Here is where the challenge comes sometimes: We, as political people, give directives as to what we think



needs to be done. Then, sometimes you find that in between ourselves, the department and the official there is a break. That is something that I have found in the department.



So, our role really is to first and foremost appreciate the dignity that comes with this kind of support.

However, it is also about accountability: How do we make the provinces – not only just the MECs, but also the provinces entirely – to be accountable to monies that are sent to provinces.



I am of the opinion that our systems are actually good; it is just the problem of implementation. The monitoring and evaluation is where I find that there is a weakness. Therefore my responsibility will be to try to work hard in ensuring that the monitoring and evaluation is done.



To that effect, I have actually created monitoring and evaluation right in my office, so that I don’t have to wait for the monitoring and evaluation as it is done by the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation. But, the dignity for us is very important.



With regards to the second question from the DA: Thank you very much, hon member, for that question. We are very much aware that we have been in and out of courts with regard to this issue and the fact that we have had to go back to court to ask for an extension because I found that sometimes we miss the point.



Going to the court and asking for an extension is not such a difficult thing but it takes us long because we decide that we think we are going to be able to manage it; only to find that we are not managing. [Time expired.]



Agreed to (with Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 18 – Correctional Services



Questions on vote:


Mr M G CUTHBERT: Minister, the lateral transfer of Mr Arthur Fraser form State Security to Correctional Services two-and-a-half years ago was touted by President Ramaphosa as temporarily and only in order to facilitate the investigation into the serious allegations of financial and other misconducts against Fraser while at State Security.



Minister, have you done anything to ensure that this investigation is expedited, particularly in light thereafter that Correctional Services has regressed markedly under the stewardship of Fraser, where financial governance is all but falling apart? If not; why not? [Applause.]



Ms N H MASEKO-JELE: Chairperson, Minister: What is the progress in the creation of bed spaces in the correctional facilities given the challenges experienced in the past financial year?



The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, the question by hon Horn is not related to the adjustments. It is the responsibility of the President with regard to appointments of director-generals and as he is aware, the process is ongoing. With regard to the creation of bed spaces, it is a long-term project of the department which is being done on a year-to-year basis.



However, the challenges of overcrowding and the challenges of dealing with inmates who are coming at higher always outpace our programme of creation of new bed spaces and new facilities because properties and the creation of infrastructure is a long-term investment. The department is attending to it, albeit at a pace which will not be able to match the level of incarceration.

Thank you.





will now suspend proceeding until 14:00, and wish to remind members that the Consideration of Votes – if you can just listen, please – the Consideration of Votes and Schedules through appropriation Bill will be taken at 14:00 this afternoon. Bells will be rung to alert members to the resumption of business.



Business suspended at 12:59 and Resumed at 14:00



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we resume our consideration of the Votes.



I put Vote 19 — Defence and Military Veterans. Are there any questions? No questions. Agreed to.



I put Vote 20 — Independent Police Investigative Directorate. Are there any questions? No questions. Agreed to.



Vote 21 — Justice and Constitutional Development



Vote 20 — Independent Police Investigative Directorate



Vote 21 — Justice and Constitutional Development



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put Vote 21 — Justice and Constitutional Development. Are there any questions? [Interjections.] Go ahead, hon member.



Mr P P KEETSE: Hon Minister, today marks exactly two years since the unjust incarceration of Comrade Kanya Cekeshe. And understanding you very well, Comrade Ronald, that your political acumen is above standard ... You understand dynamics and the nature of the politics we are in.



How then do you justify the fact that this current government, prior to the dawn of democracy, singlehandedly forgave the murderous regime here that brutalised and killed many of our people in squatter camps and townships? They came — this government — and forgave them, because they understood that, at that time, there was generally a crisis that needed to be resolved.



Now, on the matter of Cekeshe, the leader was fighting for a genuine cause of which all of us agree, including the previous administration ... where we saw the President ... the free education ... that it was being fought for ... How do you justify the fact that a leader cannot even spend Christmas with his family on the basis that he was fighting for many of the people out ... not only students, equally, but parents who, through in- sourcing, were being undermined by these institutions of higher learning. Today they are employed. How do you approach this thing and when can we expect Comrade Cekeshe to come back home?



Lastly, we are aware that ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there are too many now!



Mr P P KEETSE: ... we have the Acting President here today. Perhaps Comrade Cekeshe can get a presidential pardon when the other one is still outside. Quickly, leader!



Adv H MOHAMED: Minister, we welcome that there will be a reprioritisation of the funds to improve the prosecution capacity and the fight against corruption in cybercrime. We also welcome the undertaking that the Aspirant Prosecutor Programme will be resuscitated.



Minister, how will the department ensure that the intake in the Aspirant Prosecutor Programme grows over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period, given that, in the past, this programme was suspended because of a lack of funds? Thank you.





you, hon members.



Indeed, we agree that the fight against fees and exclusion was a just cause. It has been an ongoing struggle of students of this country.



However, the person concerned about whom the hon member is raising this question has been duly convicted by a properly constituted court of law. The processes that we can undertake as the executive can only be undertaken



when the process of the courts has been exhausted. The said inmate has appealed the ruling of a magistrate court. There is nothing that the executive can do when there is an appeal process underway. We have to respect the processes of the law up until the appeal is exhausted. If there is any process that he may want us to help with, as he has requested us to do, we can only undertake that process after the appeal processes. The outcome will depend on that.



We have indeed received a letter from his lawyers requesting us to help him with the process of a presidential pardon. We do assist many people with an application for presidential pardon. From day to day, we do process them. It is our duty. We also provide the necessary forms and all kinds of assistance that the department is able to provide.



We are, however, only able to do so once the judicial processes have been completed.



I’m answering this question for the benefit of the public because it is not related to the adjustment issue that we



are debating today. But, in the interest of the public, I decided to respond.



On the second question that was asked, the Aspirant Prosecutors Programme has been resuscitated. The adjusted budget has also helped us for the National Prosecuting Authority with an amount of R104 million. We are hoping that this amount will enable the prosecuting authority to be able to do their work, which is to prosecute without fear or favour. We believe they will be able to increase the number of aspirant prosecutors as they move forward in the next financial year. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now put Vote 22 - Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration. Are there any questions? No questions. Agreed to.



I now put Vote 23 — Police. Are there any questions? [Interjections.]



Vote 23 — Police


Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP, like everyone in this House, I’m sure, is deeply concerned about the high



levels of crime in society. Given that, hon Minister, what was the reason for the R700 million underspending on the implementation of the criminal justice seven-point plan? Is it also correct that R764 million will be cut from detective services? If so, this is surely a matter of great concern, given the need to improve our detective services and investigation services? Thank you.



Mr D S TERBLANCHE: Hon Minister, the SAPS is currently seriously understaffed, under-resources and not properly trained. With the recent budget cuts by Treasury and the prevailing crime wave in the country, how are you planning to professionalise the police and equip them for their task to effectively deal with the current crime trends? Thank you.



Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Minister, serious concerns remain about the capacity of the Central Firearms Registry and the renewal of firearms licences for legal gun owners. In its recent Budget Review and Recommendations Report, SAPS reported that a new instruction will be put out ... designated firearm officers in a few days’ time. Has this been done and can



you assure us that processes are in place ... as of licensed gun owners ... for firearm licences renewal and within the time limits prescribed. Thank you.



Dr P J GROENEWALD: I want to ask the hon Minister ... part of the crime situation in South Africa is the criminal justice system. We know, according to statistics, only about 20% of all cases reported to the police goes to our courts, because each and every case must be investigated by our detectives.



Now, why is it that R764 000 429 has been taken away from the detective service, where we have a shortage of people to properly investigate the cases reported to the police? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, I think the first and the last question are related. By the ACDP and the hon member ... Indeed, that cannot be allowed to continue. It has happened. But for that reason it’s the same reason that that will be and should be corrected in terms of the detectives.



The Deputy Minister seated there has led the team to serious institutions that deal with detectives. One of those is the FBI headquarters because we are and the decision has been taken to build a top academy for detectives in the Republic of South Africa, including working with those institutions.



So, this is being corrected. That money is going to be found and sent back to make sure that detectives, especially detectives on violent crimes and on sexual crimes, are going to be improved. That academy is coming. Hence the Deputy Minister is leading that process.



So it is a correction that should have been done and never happen again that at that level ...



Besides, detectives have been very thinned because people like Hawks themselves take from the same detectives and they want the best out of detectives.



Then the part of the investigation unit that was put by the President is also taking from the same pool of detectives.



So we agree; it was wrong. It’s being corrected. It will be corrected.



On the question of properly trained ... Well, I don’t know this properly trained and professional ... I think the Minister of Correctional Services has been raising this issue and complaining about the over-populated prisons or correctional services. Last time I checked they were 37% over-populated.



All those inmates ... not a single one went there through toyi-toying. They were all arrested¸ investigated, and were sent by the members of the SAPS. For them to be given that and to be in that institution means one thing, that somebody has done his job. Especially on the issue of the sexual offences ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I’m afraid your time has expired. I gave you additional seconds to complete your answer. The time limitation is unfortunately against us. We have to move to the next part.






UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Bakhuze ke nabo bangabuzi imibuzo eminingi uma ungazukuzifuna izimpendulo zakhona.



USEKELA SOMLOMO: Bakuzwile baba, musani ukubuza imibuzo iminingi. [Uhleko.] Ngivumelana naye.



Vote 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, where are you talking from? Ok, go ahead.



Hon Member: Who is supposed to go ahead, me?          Oh thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member go ahead, hon member I am pointing you. Hon Ntshayisa, you will come back. Is that you there at the back? Oh ok, go ahead.



Mr N E HINANA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please! It is serious, you guys have insisted that there must be time allocated and limited to Ministers to respond. So if you ask three, I mean really?



Just prioritise, which of these three questions that I have in my head will produce the best results [Laughter.] I am requesting all of you to do that. Hon Cele overseeing the police knows the importance of timing, please go ahead ntate.



Mr N E HINANA: Deputy Speaker I see you ate my time.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No it’s not, I have not.



Mr N E HINANA: Today the DA notes at last that the foot and mouth disease in Limpopo has been gazetted and we welcome that. Deputy Minister, we made a call to your colleague in Cogta to also gazette the current drought and nothing has been done so far. The DA requests you to tell this House and the farmers as to when is the drought going to be gazetted. Secondly, when are you going to release the funding to fight this foot and mouth disease in Limpopo?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have to add this one. Ministers when you respond, do the same thing, prioritise. Choose which one you are going to answer or answer all of them



within the limited time that you know you have, so that we are fair across the board. The next question is at the back there and then you hon member of the FF-Plus.



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. In Matatiele there is a small-holder farmer by the name of Vuyani Zigana. That person was given land to run by the department, but now he has been told to vacate that land with all that livestock. He was not even consulted. This farm has been given to another person by the department officials. I just want to find out from the Minister, what was supposed to have happened there because the man is being victimised, he has no where to go. Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is a very valid question, but on appropriation, really? Sorry, no ja really, ok the Minister will make a decision. [Laughter.]



Ms T BREEDT: Thank you hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister I would like to ask and I am glad that my colleague of the DA mentioned that. Our current state of animal diseases that we have and specifically taking into



account that money is being taken away from programme too, also taking into account that on international trade and on auctions and everything is currently at the web’s end. What are we going to do with our extreme shortages of vets, programme two money being taken away and how are we going to prioritise funds to ensure that the foot and mouth disease outbreak odes not occur nationwide? How are going to take that forward? Thank you, Chair.



Ms E M THLAPE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, agriculture carries the hope of our rural poor in improving their livelihoods. Based on the indicated budget adjustment, how will the department ensure that planned targets are achieved and the farmers as well as the sector in general are supported to enhance adequate food production and create jobs? Thank you.





DEVELOPMENT: (Mr M SKWATSHA): Thank you very much Deputy Speaker. The 2019/2010 estimates of national expenditure budget were agreed upon – were adjusted downwards from R7,664 billion to R7,612 billion. The reason for this was simply because the National Treasury imposed a cut of



R57,7 million on the transfer payment which was to Land Bank earmarked for blended finance programme.



The department obtained an approval from the National Treasury to roll over R4,9 million for the upgrade of laboratory infrastructure and equipment under the agricultural production, health and food safety programme. The department also obtained a National Treasury approval to shift funds amounting to

R45,2 million from Ilima Letsema grant to indirect grant to fund the South African vulnerability committee programme.



How we will be attending to as asked, we have what is called the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, CASP, and other grants and many other different provincial initiatives, like the Fetsa Tlala programme. We also have Kaunafatso ya dikgomo, which will make sure that the sector, continues to meet the country’s expectation in terms of food security and the creation of jobs. Then, the issue of the foot and mouth disease ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Minister ...





... le nto engiyishilo ukuthi isikhathi asikho.





DEVELOPMENT: No just that...





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Isikhathi yisona esingekho.





I did point out that we have got a problem with a number of questions and unfortunately Ministers and the time allocated to them is limited. So I am afraid, we have to move to the next one.



Ms A STEYN: Deputy Speaker, I think it is very unfair. The Deputy Minister mentioned the cuts of budgets, we all know that. He did not answer one of the questions.



Vote 25 Economic Development



Question put



Agreed to



Vote 26 Energy and Mineral Resources



Question put



Mr K J MILEHAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am not sure who I must address my question to; there is no minister in the House.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the House is sitting ask your question, we will deal with that when we come to that bridge.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Speaker, can I get clarity as to who is going to answer it [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no your role right now is to ask a question please.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Speaker, ok, the integrated resource plan was promulgated in October this year. This is the roadmap for South Africa’s energy sector. My



question is, when is the minister going to approve the procurement of new independent power producer, IPP, generated electricity whether it is gas, renewable or other to address South Africa’s electricity supply crisis.



THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, any other question? No other question, Minister, Deputy Minister who is acting?



Hon Member: Where s the tiger?





may, this is an unprecedented situation and it is why hon Mileham raised it with you. There is no Deputy Minister of Energy and the Minister of Energy is not here. Mr Mileham has asked his question to Parliament. The very reason that the Ministers are here is to answer our questions today, they are not here. I would ask that the fact that the Minister is not here to take his question is brought before the Rules Committee and that we rule on that accordingly because it is unacceptable that the Minister is not here for a question during the budget [Applause.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the reason I said it should be asked is that the question belongs to the House, not the Minister. We then determine whether he or she is here and then in their absence we then take a decision as to what to do with that and that we are going to the next one [Interjections]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no, you can’t be screaming. You are out of order. You are out of order. You can’t be screaming. You want a response, you better keep quiet, you want order; you better keep quiet. No, no, please!





Moet nie kanse vat nie. Asseblief maan.



Hon Member: Point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Member, can I rule? You are interrupting me as I speak. Take your seat I will invite you, ok! Please. Hon members, we are usually informed when the Minister or Deputy is not present. Otherwise



this is why I said so, so that we are informed. Who is taking that question? Hon Minister!



The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Thank you very much, the Minister of Energy and Mineral Resources is not here and I will assist the House in responding to the question, unless members are Minister Mantashe. If they are looking for a response from the executive, can we assist?



The response is that the Department of Energy and Mineral Resources has recently issued an Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, as colleagues would know. In terms of the procedure you do not say immediately after you issue an IRP, issue new bids. You issue the IRP and then there are procedures in terms of declaration and the issuing regulation by the Minister to determine the required energies that will be as hon members would note. That process has not been so he cannot ask about the determination and it has nothing to do with the adjustment budget. Thank you very much.



Vote 26 Energy and Mineral Resources - Discussion on Votes and Schedule (Contd)



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, what the hon Mileham had asked was a very specific question relating to the adjustment budget. We can’t have a Minister come and moonlight as another Minister when they don’t know what the specific [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] and really makes a mockery of this very important process that we are going to; and is not allowed to actually sufficiently make up our minds whether we are going to support that budget or not.





order, Deputy Speaker. Minister Kubayi is not moonlighting, she’s a Minister within the ETC and any Minister in this House, like you put the question to the House, has a right to stand up and respond because in the ANC we lead collectively. [Interjections.] So, what Minister Kubayi is responding to is the same that Minister Mantashe was going to respond to. I thank you.



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, can I just suggest that we allow just one question to be asked because these questions are not answered? So, in order to avoid this who is fooling fruitless questions [Laughter.] we better



allow one person to ask questions. Because all of my questions have not been responded to; very much unfair. Then we press the button, we press the button; please.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntshayisa, thanks for your guidance. But, hon members, let’s get responses ... ask questions in a manner that will enable Ministers to respond to, in a limited space that we have.



And secondly, that the unfortunate absence of a Minister must not lead to us assuming that we can’t get answers. All Ministers and their answers may not satisfy you; it’s a political reality of the issues that we are putting before you. Right now, we want answers. So, I’m suggesting we move to the next question; which is on environmental affairs.



Vote 27- Environmental Affairs



Mr M N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, we are at this moment more than at any other time in history faced with the greatest threat to human existence.



One of the most tragic consequences of our fixation with consumer-driven development has been our inability to imagine and implement the developmental programme that prioritises the protection of the integrity of our environment.



So, I would like to ask the Minister, at the practical policy level, whether she’s considered legislation ensuring that mining companies that have abandoned mines are forced to come back and rehabilitate denuded mines?



As well as introduce a massive tree-planting campaign across the country and give tax incentives to companies that were subsidised tree-planting activities around areas where they operate. Thank you very much.





Paulsen, there are amendments to the current mining regulations so it doesn’t fall under environmental affairs, it falls under the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, but there are amendments to the current mining regulations that require mining companies to set aside, from the beginning, an annual amount of



money to be used for incremental rehabilitation of mining sites because I think there is a recognition that this is a problem that our country faces and that going forward we can’t continue to be issuing mining rights without dealing with it.



With regard to the important question you raised about tree-planting. We do have a programme that we are currently planning and financing for the next financial year that is going to allow for mass planting of trees because what we recognise is that this is an important contribution to the development of carbon sinks that are an important mechanism to help us deal with carbon gas emitions and the consequent climate change that arises. Thank you very much.



Vote 28 - Labour



Dr M J CARDO: Deputy Speaker, the Department of Employment and Labour isn’t working for the unemployed. The official unemployment rate stands at 29,1%; which is the highest in 11 years. Part of the problem is over- regulation and rigid labour legislation.



Minister, will you commit to taking on the vested interests in both big business and the trade unions, and commit to a funded programme of labour market deregulation and revision of restrictive labour laws?

Thank you. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Any other question to the Minister of Labour? None.



Hon Minister!



The Minister of Labour is not here.



Any Minister from the cluster? None.



Unfortunately, the Minister is not here; no other Minister is able to respond. We are noting that.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, this is now the second time and I’m afraid I am going to have to insist that this incident is reported to the Rules Committee for a finding, on the fact that there is no response to a question asked, by any Minister. So, now



it’s not even a question of the specific Minister, now a question isn’t being answered by any Minister and that is not acceptable. And I ask for it to be referred to the Rules Committee. [Applause.]



Vote 29 - Mineral Resources



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon the Minister of Mineral Resources


... I mean this is Vote 29. Any other questions? No questions. Agreed to.



Vote 30 - Science and Technology. Are there any questions? No questions. Agreed to.



Vote 31 – Small Business Development



Mr Z MBHELE: Minister, if your department was dissolved tomorrow, do you believe that such a reversal would make any meaningful difference or cause any adverse impact on the small business landscape?



Otherwise, what’s unique or substantive value-add is the department bringing to motivate support for this vote?

Thank you.





Mbhele for the question. Lucky for the South African majority, the Department of Small Business Development is not going to be dissolved tomorrow; neither is it going to be dissolved next year and within this term.



But the importance of the Department for Small Business Development is that 50% of the Gross Domestic Product, GDP, of this country must be delivered through small businesses in the country. And in any other developing economy, 80% to 90% of the economy is driven by small businesses.



So, our responsibility as a department is to make sure that we support our small businesses to reach the target of ensuring that 50% of the GDP that set, of the country, must come from small businesses because the world over they are proven that they create jobs and alleviate



poverty to our people and they are running the economies of the developed world. Thank you.



Vote 32 – Telecommunications and Postal Services



Mr P P KEETSE: Deputy Speaker, perhaps to check the readiness in terms of understanding how the society we live in keeps on evolving, considering the artificial intelligence. Let’s look at the soccer in South Africa, what is the plans of the department, in terms of the introduction of the Video Assistant Refereeing, in terms of being on the same standard with other leagues out there? Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, before you respond. Let’s give others who may want to ask questions to ask. Anybody else?





Deputy Speaker, the question is not relevant to the Department of Telecommunications but it’s meant for the Department of Sport that must then introduce technologies that, of course, talk to the Fourth Industrial Revolution



in order to advance the interest of the Department of Sport and, therefore, building the sporting facilities and making sure that through the sport economy the country can change. Thank you.



But I would talk to artificial intelligence if you like me to talk to it broadly; I don’t know. But in terms of the specific question that you asked hon member, it’s the Department of Sports. Thank you fighter.



Mr P P KEETSE: Deputy Speaker, just ... if you may [Interjections.] wait, please, wait.



Well, it’s a fact and it’s well-understandable that for you ... the question I’m raising, equally it



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s answered






The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, it’s answered



Mr P P KEETSE: Just for clarity






Mr P P KEETSE: Just for clarity. It includes the Department of Sports



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She’s not going to have another chance, hon member.



Mr P P KEETSE: [Inaudible.] technology, including her own department



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are wasting your airtime. She’s not going to be given a chance to respond.



Mr P P KEETSE: It’s fine, it’s fine



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat



Mr P P KEETSE: We do have answers though



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, you take your seat there in that event, there is no other opportunity for you on this matter right now.



Discussion on Votes and Schedule (Contd):


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we go to Tourism. Are there any questions? As there are no questions, we move to Trade and Industry. Are there any questions?



Vote No 33 – Tourism:



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Yes, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon member.



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Minister, the budget is facing serious budget cuts but the entities in the departments, in their salaries, are getting major budget increases.



There is one particular CEO, the CEO of the National Empowerment Fund Ms Philisiwe Mthethwa, who earned

R6 million in the last year, with a R2-million bonus. And she is set to get a double inflation increase in the adjusted budget. How do you justify that? [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there any other question? Yes, hon member?



Mr W M THRING: Yes, Deputy Speaker. The committee on appropriations identified 16 departments that have exceeded the 8% virement requirement, which must now be approved by Parliament – and the Department of Trade and Industry is one of those departments.



In the Department of Trade and Industry, Minister, some R50 million was allocated to the manufacturing development incentive, which was not spent; and programme

3 - for equity and empowerment and special economic zones and economic empowerment – was adjusted down by

R28 million.



Now, in the light of our need to grow our industrial base, does the Minister not agree that this combined

R78 million – small by comparison, perhaps, to the actual budget but huge for our potential industrialists-in- waiting – could have been put to better use in the industrial sector? Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon member?





Mnu D M NKOSI: Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo, bengithi ke ehhovisini likaNgqongqoshe benginesicelo nje sokuthi ngibone ukuthi njengoba bekuhlanganiswa imikhakha emibili uMnyango Wezokuthuthukiswa Komnotho kanye noMnyango Wezohwebo Nezimboni, uMnyango kaNgqosheshe uqhubeka kanjani ukusisiza ukuthi umsebenzi uqhubekele phambili ngendlela efanele? Ngiyabonga.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Any other question? Minister ... Deputy Minister?







Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo angiqale ngombuzo lowo wokugcina ukuthi: Ihlanganiswa kanjani iMinyango? Ngiyathanda ukuphendula ukuthi i-organogram yeMinyango yomibili isiyenziwe eMnyangweni wethu ... [Ubuwelewele.] Anizwa kahle? Isiyenziwe i-organogram. Njengamanje isithunyelwe eMnyangweni Wemisebenzi Kahulumeni Nokuphathwa Kwayo lapho silindele ukuthi ivunywe



ngokuphelele. Kukho konke, zonke izinhlelo zokuqinisekisa ukuthi ukuhlanganiswa kweMinyango yomibili iyaqhubeka futhi iqhubeka kahle ngiyanithembisa ukuthi ngonyaka ozayo izobe isihlangene iMinyango. Sizobe sesiqhubeka ngendlela efanele.



Kulo mbuzo omunye wokuqala, emiholweni yabanye babaphathi abakhulu [CEOs] bezinhlangano zethu ngizothanda ukungagxili kokukodwa. Ngithi umnandi lo mbuzo ngoba uma kungenankinga kanje, yona le-DA izothi siyangenelela njengoMnyango. Engifuna ukukuqinisekisa ukuthi uhulumeni uyabuka futhi uyabuyekeza kuzo zonke izinhlangano zikahulumeni ukuthi amahholo abo anjani. Nalezigidi eziyisithupha esibuzwa ngazo nazo zingaphansi kwalokubuyekezwa okwenziwayo nguhulumeni. Nathi njengoMnyango siyaxhumana nebhodi ngoba ibhodi iyona ethatha izinqumo.





Now and again, whenever we get in, it is as if that is interference. But, as the question has been asked, we are dealing with it as a department. The hon Macpherson knows about this. This is something we have been discussing and



there is a lot that is going to happen. This is being reviewed in terms of ambit of the whole state. This is one of the entities we are looking at as the department. [Time expired.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next question is on Vote No 35 – Transport. Are there any questions?



Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Yes, Chair.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.



Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Thank you, Chair. More of the 12 entities under the Department of Transport pose a fiscal risk to South Africa’s struggling economy than ever before, one of which is the SA National Roads Agency SOC Ltd or Sanral and, in particular, the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, GFip, with its divisive e-toll conspiracy scheme.



Now, the President announced that you, Minister Mbalula, would fearlessly come up with a solution to fix this problem by August this year. What, Minister, should be



made of your failure to comply with the specific assignment, given the fact that after three months of this deadline we have seen nothing more than the latter part of your nickname? [Laughter.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Any other questions? The Minister of Transport ... Minister ... Deputy Minister?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much, hon member. The GFip issues are with Cabinet and they will be dealt with. I thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We go to Vote 36 - Water and Sanitation. Are there any questions?



Mr X NGWEZI: Yes ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, baba.





Mnu X NGWEZI: Baba uTsinodi kunomkhandlu i-King Cetshwayo awusebenzisanga imali eyizigidi ezi 91,7 obekufanele ukuthi isebenze ekuhlinzekeni udaba lwamanzi kulesiya



sifunda. Uhlulekile uMgcinimafa kaZwelonke ukubasiza ukuthi leyo mali iwelele kunyaka olandelayo. Umgcinimafa uzobanikeza imali nje eyizigidi ezi-4, okuchaza ukuthi kuzoba nenkinga ngoba amanzi awazukusatshalaliswa. Umbuzo wami ukuthi: Kukhona yini uMnyango wethu oyokwenza ngoba inkinga izoba nkulu uma sengibheka le sabiwomali? Ikhona yini into uMnyango engawenza ukulungisa le nkinga ezovela laphaya eKing Cetshwayo? Sekela Somlomo, inhlekele yodwa ivele ikhona iyenzeka usuku nosuku. Kubi!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Go ahead, hon member.



Ms A L A ABRAHAMS: Deputy Speaker, last week hon Minister Sisulu announced a R900-billion water master plan. Given that Treasury has only allocated her department an additional R26 million in this financial year and that the Auditor-General has now declared her department technically bankrupt, how does the hon Minister intend on funding this R900-billion water plan over the next 10 years?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Any other question? None. Deputy Minister?





SANITATION (Ms P Tshwete): Thank you ...





Enkosi Sekela Somlomo, mandiqale ngombuzo ka.- okunene sinengxaki yoomasipala abangayisebenzisiyo imali eyabelwe bona. Okwangoku, sizixelele ukuba ...





... all provinces that are not using their budgets, we take that money and give it to provinces that need money. We do have ...





... ingxaki koomasipala kwaye asizukuyiyekela kuba asiyongxaki yabahlali le yokungasetyenziswa kwemali. Siyijongile le meko yabo abo masipala.



Ndifuna ukukukhumbuza kwakhona ukuba oomasipala abakho phanti kwSebe lezaManzi noGutyulo lweLindle, baphantsi kweSebe lezeNtsebenziswano kuLawulo neMicimbi yezeMveli. Siyasebenzisana nalo iSebe lezeNtsebenziswano kuLawulo neMicimbi yezeMveli kuba imali engasetyenziswanga



yeyeSebe lezaManzi noGutyulo lweLindle. Ngoko ke uMasipala weSithili iKing Cetywayo ngomnye woomasipala esijonge ukubanceda ngokuthi siye kubo. Izolo bendiseGcuwa ndiye malunga nemali enagsetyenziswayo nangenxa yembalela. Ngokuqisekileyo sizakubancedisa abo masipala. UMasipala weSithili iKing Cetywayo ...





... is one of our priorities. Thank you. [Interjections.]



The master plan issue, I know, I started ... I was part of the master plan at the time I was in Water and Sanitation. It doesn’t mean because there won’t be money to deal with the master plan that we must not have plans. The Minister last week launched the master plan, which was started two years ago. And you were asking us questions, such as: When are you going to launch the master plan?



The Minister has launched the master plan, but now you are asking another question. Yes, the money for the master plan ... it doesn’t mean that because there is no money to operate or do the functions of the master plan



... [Interjections.] We will continue making our plans for the next term. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the next question is on Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture. Are there any questions? No questions. Are there any questions on Vote No 38 - Human Settlements? Yes, hon member?



Ms A L A ABRAHAMS: How does hon Minister Sisulu justify the budget cuts of R17,5 million from the Human Settlements delivery budget, given the housing backlog in South Africa of more than 2,3 million houses?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Any other question on Human Settlements? None ...



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Speaker, I am here.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, okay. Go ahead, hon member.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: I would like the Minister or Deputy Minister to tell us, regarding the announcement by the President particularly on the Human Settlements



Development Bank where we were supposed to be providing serviced sites and providing loans to the less fortunate in South Africa: what is the latest development in this regard since we are not going to be able to deal with the shortage of housing in South Africa? So, I would like you to tell us what the latest is in terms of the Human Settlements Development Bank and the initiative to provide funding for those less fortunate with serviced sites provided by the local, provincial and national authorities. Thank you.





SANITATION (Ms P Tshwete): I’m going to start with the last question. The Minister is working closely with the Human Settlements Development Bank. We know that people are complaining that the bank’s requirements are the same as that of other banks. So, we are busy working on making sure that this bank is made for housing. It must adhere to the requirements of housing. So, the Minister, working with the bank, will make sure that houses are all built. Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister ... Deputy Minister, have you answered both questions?





SANITATION (Ms P Tshwete): Could you repeat your question? [Interjections.]



Ms A L A ABRAHAMS: Hon Deputy Minister, the question is that you recently cut R17,5 million from the housing delivery budget in this adjustment budget. I am asking you what the justification for this cut is, given that South Africa still has a 2,3 million housing backlog.





SANITATION (Ms P Tshwete): The service-level agreements have since been signed and the work on the national upgrading support programme has started. We know that our budget is cut ... reduced to R33,861 billion through monetary savings of R17,52 million. We are saying that we will make sure that the houses are built. We will take money from programmes, like, for instance, the title deeds are not doing well in terms of utilising their money. We are not going to say there is no budget to do



that work. We will definitely take from programmes that are not utilising their money and make sure that the houses are built. Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I will not do this again. Please pay attention to questions. And questioners: Keep your questions short and sweet. We now go to Vote No 39 – Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. Hon Van der Walt?



Mrs A STEYN: It’s Steyn, but thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Vote No 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.



Ms A STEYN: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, this department keeps on losing court cases, but you do not learn any lessons. You are still in contempt of court in the Rakgase matter. You have offered him half of his land and not the full area that you have been informed for the last 30 years and paying rent to the state every month, but now you are deciding to do



your own things. When will you do the right things and give him the land?



Since you have not answered any single question on the agriculture questions, I would also ask you that you have so nicely spoken about the Kaonafatso ya Dikgomo project. When we don’t solve the foot and mouths disease outbreak, there won’t be any dikgomo [cows] in this county. When are you going to put a budget towards that, and also regarding the current drought that is wiping out our whole agriculture sector? [Applause.]



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ah-ah, ah-ah! Deputy Minister, please, just be accurate in the interest of accuracy who you address, you must pay attention and be alive ... [Laughter.] ... Please, it helps because ...



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Deputy Minister, your department...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I’m not a Deputy Minister. Hon member, correct yourself. It is a good thing to do. It is in the interest of the public that is listening to you.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Deputy Speaker, I’m done with you, I’m addressing ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you are not done with me.






The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not done with me. You are not going to proceed. You will not proceed. Just realise that. You are not done with me and be corrected.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Deputy Speaker ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Be corrected.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Deputy Speaker ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Be corrected.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: And say what?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, do the correct thing and address the Chair appropriately. There is nothing little or immaterial here, it is important. Do that.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Deputy Speaker, can I continue?






Mr M K MONTWEDI: Your department committed an amount of R1,3 billion in March 2019, to recapitalise both crop and livestock farmers. R514 million thereof was for livestock and R512 million was for crop production. Thus far, there is little implementation with regard to that programme.

Therefore, we must remind you, Deputy Minister, that currently, the planting season has already passed and you had already said that by March you will assist crop farmers. You have not done that. Was that part of the electioneering programme for the May 2019 elections, or when will you implement that programme of recapitalising both crop and livestock farmers? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and Deputy Minister. Now that the Traditional and Khoisan Bill has been passed and signed by the President, and very importantly, the expropriation without compensation is reaching its final stages. Could you tell us, Deputy Minister, what your plan in terms of providing land to the first indigenous people of this country, and that is the Khoi and San, particularly in the Western Cape is?



Ms E M THLAPE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, the access to land and ownership has become urgent for majority of our people, especially the blacks in general. What is the department doing in the phase of the budget cuts, whilst awaiting processes of amendment of section 25 of the Constitution to ensure that people have got access for land. Thank you.





Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Sekela Somlomo, mhlonishwa Sekela Ngqongqoshe uMnyango wehla wenyuka ukubuyisela umhlaba ebantwini. Abantu ngenxa yokuthi abafundisekile bagcina bebangisana bafuna ukuthi bathole izinzuzo nganeno kwesikhathi. Bangakazenzi izinzuzo bagcina badikila



umhlaba bewubuyisela kubantu ebabewuthenge kubo. Ngicela ukuzwa kuSekela Ngqongqoshe ukuthi ngabe uhlelo loMnyango lukhona yini olushoyo ukuthi uma kuzobuyiselwa umhlaba ebantwini abantu abafundiswe kuqala ukuthi yini ebhekiwe kubona kunokuthi uMnyango ugqinsile imali, ugqinsile umhlaba kugcine kungasizakali isizwe. Ngiyathokoza.







NOPHUHLISO LWAMAPHANDLE: Ndiyabulela ngale mibuzo ...





... maybe let me start with the DA and the FF Plus questions arose about drought. I just want to say that the department like the rest of Cabinet recognises the dire situation as it relates to the issue of drought. However, I also want to remind the House that the issue of declaring the relation to drought is the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, issue. What we are busy with, as a department, is an interventionist mode. In this regard, we have been intervening like the dire situation in the Northern Cape where we have been able to make money available to the amount of R30 million



so that people can be able to deal with lucernes and other issues on the foot and mouth which is ours - that also is very important. I think that people have seen the Minister on television and on radio. The issue has been finalised by the department. I cannot safely say that whether the Minister has taken the matter to Cabinet or is on her table, but that particular issue has been finalised by the department.



Quickly on the issue of access to land, just what to explain once again that the issue of expropriation which this House is busy with is just, but one of the issues of releasing land to our people. We are busy with many programmes that are releasing state land to people.

Others we are doing it in co-ordination with Human Settlements, like the issue of title deeds and also the handing over and the issue of the farms that we are busy with. Therefore, the issue of state land and the release of land is not a programme that is postponed. It is continuing as we speak and it is a programme that will be continuing. On the issue of Rakgase ... [Time expired.]



Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa



Ms J HERMANS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Has the department put measures in place to monitor the use and spend of transfers and subsidies paid provinces in municipalities to ensure that the money, indeed, used for the purposes that is paid for? If so, what are the relevant details of these measures, if not, why not?

Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. One of the serious challenges we have in South Africa despite having a 57,6 million population is our performance in sports.

This is as the result of very little development at grassroots level. Can you tell us what measures are being put in place together with Basic Education, the Department of Health and other relevant departments to ensure that it, indeed, use the school level and development starts there. Thank you.



Mr P P KEETSE: Thank you very much. Now, this goes to the sports as they requested. In December 2012, hon Deputy Speaker, Fédération Internationale de Football Association, Fifa, has taken a decision to introduce what we call a goal-line technology. It happened in December



2012, during the Fifa Club World Cup, right. Now, the video assistant referee, VAR, got introduced and I think last year, 2018. Therefore, the Premier Soccer League, PSL, chairman recently has announced that the PSL is ready to have VAR. Our question is that how are plans going to have VAR before we can even have a simple goal- line technology. We want to see the plans in that regard. Thank you very much.







Sibulele Sekela Somlomo. Sibulela imibuzo esuka kumalungu. Umbuzo wokuqala omalumga nendlela esenza ngayo ukujonga ukuba amaphondo noomasipala bayisebenzisa kanjani na imali abayabelwayo. Andazi nokuba niyakhumbula kusini ukuba kaloku amasebe adibana kwindibano nabaPhathiswa bamaphondo (MINMEC) apho athi akwazi ukufumana iingxelo zamaphondo.



Okwesibini, niyazi nina malungu ukuba nihlala kwiikomiti niyibuze le mibuzo. Isebe ngalinye liye liphendule licacise indlela elithi libeke ngayo iliso kwezi mali sizinika amaphondo. Kaloku niyazi ukuba...





... the national department most of the time doesn’t implement. What it does is to take the money to provinces and municipalities. Therefore, it becomes critical and then that they must report back so that we are able to see that the money that goes at the ground level to the grassroots is being spent the way it is.





Ixesha elininzi, nini malungu ePalamente...





... mostly that are actually monitoring that because ...





... ngumsebenzi wenu lowo. Okwesibini, umbuzo obalulekileyo ubuzwe lilungu phaya ngendima yezemidlalo. Siyavumelana nani ukuba ezemidlalo azinakukwazi ukusebenza ngendlela efanelekileyo kwaye siphume phambili ukuba asifaki mali...





...at the grassroots level because...





... kulapho siphuhlisa khona abantwana nabantu abantu abatsha. Yiyo loo nto ezemidlalo ezikolweni zibalulekile kuthi silisebe. Yiyo loo nto esa sivumelwano sinaso neSebe leMfundo esiSiseko siqwalaselayo ukuba sisisebenzisa njani na ukuze izikolo zonke zikwazi ukuzibandakanya kwezemidlalo. Ukuba asiyezi loo nto...





... we will always sit here and keep on discussing ... Thank you. [Time expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Deputy Minister, your time has expired. Thank you. Hon members, that concludes the question and the answer session on the Votes. Before I proceed for the decision on the Votes and Schedule, I wish to recognise in the gallery a delegation from the Hainan Province, Provincial People’s Congress in China led by the Vice Director, Ms Zhou Xuping. [Applause.] Thank you, hon members, and welcome. Order, hon members! Order! We will now decide on each Vote as it appears in the schedule and where adjustments were



effected in the adjustment budget. I now put Vote 1, the Presidency.







(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)



Vote No 1 – Presidency – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.



Dr C P MULDER: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes hon member.



Dr C P MULDER: Hon House Chairperson, unless the EFF have elected the new commander in chief, CIC, I would suggest that that member just voted in the wrong seat.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, hon member. Order hon members!



Mr P P KEETSE: Order, hon House Chairperson. This member is out of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! Order.



Mr P P KEETSE: He is out of order. He is extremely out of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, have you voted?



Mr P P KEETSE: No hon House Chairperson. I have not voted. Yes.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Alright. Will you go to your seat please. Please go to your seat.



Mr P P KEETSE: Hon House Chair, I think we need the video assistant referee, VAR, to check whether ... We really need VAR now.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please go to your seats. Order. Hon members, hon members, we can stay here until 10pm tonight if you so wish. We can do so. Order, hon members and thank you for the hon Mulder, who brought it to my attention. You must vote from your allocated seat. I want the voting system then to be reset again so that I can put the question again to the House. It is a very serious matter. It is something that could be referred to the disciplinary committee. Can the voting system be reset please. [Applause.]



Are we ready? Order. Hon members, it will not assist if you start shouting from your benches where you are sitting.



Mr L E MOLALA: Hon House Chair, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order?



Mr L E MOLALA: My point of order is: The hon Naledi there voted twice. The seat she is seated at and one, two seats




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Member, take your seat. We will ask ... order. We will ask the Table staff to check on that. Order, hon members. The result of the division is as follows.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



VOTE No 3 – Communications – put.



Mr X NGWEZI: Hon House Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising hon member?



Mr X NGWEZI: House Chairperson, we have a problem with the gadget for Mr Nxumalo. I have consistently raised this matter. I think is the third or fourth time today. Can the Table staff please attend to that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will ask the National Assembly Table staff just to attend to the matter and to check if that member’s vote has been recorded.



Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you.



Vote No 3 – Communications – put.



Ms A STEYN: Hon House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members. What is the point of order, hon member?



Ms A STEYN: Did we vote for Parliament?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): We did not have to because there were no adjustments done.



Ms A STEYN: Alright. Thank you. Sorry.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.



An HON MALE MEMBER: There are.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No. No. Order hon members. The member is perfectly placed. She is a Whip and she is in order to raise that question. I asked. Are there any objections to Vote No 3 – Communications? There are objections.



Vote No 3 – Communications – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs



Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation – agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Vote No 7 – National Treasury – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party, Freedom Front Plus and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Vote No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 11 – Public Works – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 12 – Statistics South Africa – agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).



Vote No 13 – Women – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 15 – Higher Education and Training – put. Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 16 – Health – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 17 – Social Development – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Question Put.



Division Demanded.



The House Divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Question Put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Question Put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Agreed to (Freedom Front Plus and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).









Question Put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.






Question Put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.






Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).






Question Put



Division Demanded



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.






Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting)






Question Put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.















Agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).






Agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).






Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).






Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



VOTE No 33 - Tourism – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, dissenting).



VOTE No 34 - Trade and Industry - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, and African Democratic Party dissenting).



VOTE No 35 - Transport - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Decision Vote No 36 - Water and Sanitation – put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Decision on Vote No 37 - Arts and Culture – put.



Division Demanded.



The House divided.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 38 - Human Settlements – put. Division Demanded.






ABSTAIN – 1: Hicklin, M B.



Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 39 - Rural Development and Land



Reform – put.



Vote No 39 put to the House.



Division Demanded






ABSTAIN – 1: Hicklin, M B.



Question agreed to.



Vote No 39 accordingly agreed to.



VOTE No 40 - Sport and Recreation - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Economic Fighters dissenting).



Schedule – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Economic Fighters dissenting).







(Second Reading)



There was no debate.



Bill agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Bill read a second time.








order. I wish to remind you that earlier today, the decision of the question on the recommendation of a person for appointment as deputy public protector was postponed.



Question put: That the nomination of Adv Kholeka Gcaleka for appointment as Deputy Public Protector be approved.



Division demanded.



The House divided.



Question agreed to.



Adv Kholeka Gcaleka accordingly recommended for appointment as Deputy Public Protector in accordance with section 2A (3) of the Public Protector Act, 1994 (Act No 23 of 1994).







The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the last item on the Order Paper is Farewell Speeches. I now wish to recognise ... [Interjections.] Order! Order hon members! Order hon members! Order! I now call upon the hon the Chief Whip of the Opposition. [Applause.]



Hon Chief Whip, before you continue may I ask that members who are leaving the House to do so quietly, and the rest, if you don’t intend to leave the House, sit in your benches. You are delaying proceedings.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Should I just wait a second?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue hon member.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you House Chairperson. I hope it was nothing I said. House Chairperson, fellow members, ladies and gentlemen, the year 2019, what a year! I think we can all agree that half of this year was spent saying, wow, what was that? And the rest of the year flew by so fast that it’s hard to believe that we are here, the end of the parliamentary term, the end of the year and most astoundingly, we are at the end of a decade.



It has been a year of many changes. We have had two state of the nation addresses in one year because of a general election. We said goodbye to friends and colleagues, and we welcomed new friends and colleagues. We were collectively glued to TV screens as we watched the Zondo commission go about its business, sometimes confirming



what we already knew and sometimes shocking our socks off.



The year 2019 also introduced Parliament to a new foodie amongst our ranks, a chef if you will. It was with great delight that Twitter would wait for the latest edition of cooking with Tito. My personal favourite tweet included the quote, Cooking needs time. It’s like drawing up the national Budget; time and patience. Step by step I learnt how to cook the perfect beef stew with extra garlic. A special thank you to the Minister for this wonderful edition to my repertoire of dishes.



The 5th of September saw an unprecedented group of South Africans march peacefully to Parliament to highlight the plight of women and children in South Africa. Gender- based violence remains a source of terror and embarrassment to our country. It was a source of great pride that organisations like Fight Back SA, that was started by young women such as Ms Nicole Mirkin, sought to teach women how to defend themselves and keep each other safe. Together we continue to ensure that this terror remains a focus and that we fight for the safety



of women and children with all our might. To everyone that came and protested peacefully at Parliament, we say thank you very much.



This year I also saw the Hawks starting to swoop down on some of those who have been accused of executing state capture. A member of this very House was finally arrested, released on bail, but will appear in court in April 2020. I would be lying if I said I do not look forward to seeing him not sitting in this House any longer but sitting in jail. For me this was definitely my early Christmas present from Santa.



The Rules Committee of Parliament has been through a very busy period. New rules have been drafted and passed that will allow members to remove office bearers of the Chapter 9 institutions. We are also learning through the hard way to move Member Statements back to the rightful place at the beginning of the programme because where they were certainly wasn’t working.



A highlight of the year, not only for Parliament but the whole country, was the tremendous win of our Springbok



team at the Rugby World Cup. It was an absolute delight that Members of Parliament were able to welcome the champions of the world onto the parliamentary precinct and give them the heroes welcome they so richly deserved. At a time when our country required unity at its most, our boys in green and gold gave us the master class in nation-building and sportsmanship.



The older I get the more I realise that the only constant in life is change. I most certainly did not think that I would be standing here today delivering the DA’s 2019 farewell speech, but there you have it. Please allow me to use this opportunity to congratulate the new leader of the DA, Mr John Steenhuisen, on his election. [Applause.] Mr Steenhuisen has served Parliament as the Chief Whip of the Opposition for just under six years. His manner, his style, his wit and his knowledge ... simply unmatched. I have said it once and I’ll say it a thousand times; Mr Steenhuisen, you are the best in the business. On behalf of the DA, we thank him for all he did as Chief Whip and we wish him tremendous success in his new role as the leader of our party.



And so the time has finally come for us to break at the end of the year. Allow me to thank each one of the Chief Whips of all the different political parties for their understanding, camaraderie and friendship as I took on my new role. I want to especially thank the ANC’s Chief Whip and the ANC’s Deputy Chief Whip. I want to thank you for the chats in your office, for our meetings and the way you helped me find my feet and navigate my job as I found my style of doing things. Your kindness has been overwhelming.



To the Speaker and Deputy Speaker, thank you for having patience with me. Thank you for your work and dedication to the smooth running of Parliament. To the House Chairpeople, we say we hope we haven’t given you too much of a hard time.



To the DA Whips, you are spectacular and I’m still trying to figure out what I did right in life to deserve the honour of leading a team like you all.



Members, be blessed, be happy, be safe, rest, spend time with your friends and family and we will meet again in 2020.



I have a very wise counsel in my older sister, Maria. Allow me to conclude today by reading you a message that she sent me when I learnt that I had become the Chief Whip of the DA. She said, the devil will whisper in your ear you cannot handle the storm. You answer him I am the storm. Happy holidays and God bless you all. [Applause.]



Mr M N PAULSEN: Thank you Speaker, and thank you House Chair. After you took that seat things progressed rather swiftly. So we are very grateful for what you’ve done otherwise we would’ve still been busy with this morning’s schedule.



Speaker, the rest of the House and the rest of the country, this is a momentous year for the EFF. We go to our second national people’s assembly from 13 to

16 December. [Interjections.] It’s called a national people’s assembly because unlike your conferences where you just go to elect leaders who are useless anyway, ours



is to come up with policies that will improve the lives of South Africans that continue to suffer under 25 years of ANC rule. Our assembly is appropriately named, Consolidating the ground forces for socialist power. [Interjections.] When I speak of the EFF’s 44 battalion, none of us ... [Interjections.]





DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): Point of order, Speaker.



The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, please take your seat. Deputy Minister, what’s your point of order?





DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): I would like to ...



The SPEAKER: Order members!





DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): I would like to caution the speaker. This is a farewell speech. You can’t use it ... You are destroying the decorum of what you are doing.

Thank you very much.



The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, that was not a point of order but you are also right. Hon Paulsen ...



Mr M N PAULSEN: I will not be dictated to by Skwatsha!



The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen? Hon Paulsen, take your seat! Hon Paulsen, farewell speeches are supposed to be light. It’s goodbyes to your colleagues until you see them next. It is not meant for us to be scoring points. Please proceed, sir.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Thank you Speaker. When I speak about the EFF’s 44 battalion, we used to be 25. We grew, unlike you. You lost 19 seats. You lost a couple as well. The uncircumcised hearts lost seats. The castrated bulls lost seats. The EFF has grown to 44. [Applause.]



As the EFF, none of us here has any personal interest above the interest of this country. The people respect the EFF wherever we go because ... [Interjections.]





TECHNOLOGY: Hon Speaker?



The SPEAKER: Thank you hon Paulsen. Please take your seat. Deputy Minister, you are on the floor. Hon Papo, I have a man, an hon member, on the floor. Please proceed.





TECHNOLOGY: I don’t think it’s in order to refer to members in general as uncircumcised. Maybe if he can go to specifics then he will be in order.






The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, I didn’t say you must rise. Hon Mazzone?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you Speaker. I am used to the vulgarity coming from the member at the podium but even that surpasses his normal level of vulgarity, and I do demand that he withdraws that statement. Unbelievably vulgar!



The SPEAKER: Thank you ma’am. Hon ... [Inaudible.]



Mr M N PAULSEN: Speaker, the Bible mentions uncircumcised hearts. We can refer to the ACDP. When it comes to uncircumcised hearts the Bible does speak about it. So, you telling me the Bible is vulgar?



The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen? Hon Paulsen, please withdraw that. It’s really out of order.



Mr M N PAULSEN: No, no, Speaker. The Bible speaks about uncircumcised hearts ... [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: No, no, no, no, hon Paulsen.



Mr M N PAULSEN: I can’t withdraw what is written in the Bible... [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen!



Mr M N PAULSEN: ... but if you wish, I withdraw.



The SPEAKER: Order members! Don’t help me! Hon Paulsen, we are not in the Bible. We are not in church.






The SPEAKER: We are in a House of equals and colleagues, and the language must be respectful. Please withdraw and proceed with your speech.



Mr M N PAULSEN: But it’s in the Bible, Speaker.



The SPEAKER: No, no, no, no, no, this is ... [Interjections.] Hon members ...



Mr M N PAULSEN: Okay, I withdraw. It’s fine but ... Okay.



The SPEAKER: Yes, it is withdrawn unconditionally. You can then proceed with your speech.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Okay, I withdraw unconditionally but, ja [yes] ... Okay.



The SPEAKER: No buts about it.



Mr M N PAULSEN: So the EFF caucus, with its full sense of responsibility, participated in these parliamentary



processes so that this government can shake itself out of its complacency and wake up to the daily realities faced by the mainly poor black people of this country. We would like to see this government really start to work at improving the lives of South Africans so that for once we can have a happy holiday as all South Africans.



We must all get down to real activism so that these processes here in Parliament don’t descend into a mere series of pointless oratory tournaments. We all want peaceful coexistence but Speaker ... all of you here, we cannot have peaceful coexistence between the oppressed and the oppressor, between the exploited and the exploiters. We cannot have that peaceful coexistence.



So yes, we will fight for the poor. We will fight for those children that are being abused; for those women that are being abused. Whereas everyone here pays lip service to it, it is only the EFF that truly fights for the oppressed of this country.



Speaker, I wish you all a happy holidays ... [Interjections.] ... and I hope that your uncircumcised



hearts will find it in yourselves to fight for the poor as well and that these castrated bulls will for once live up to words that they say when they say they will improve the lives of all South Africans. Instead of paying lip service, that you will actually start doing so. Thank you very much, good bye and have a happy holidays.



The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, you are not referring to members of this House as castrated bulls are you? [Interjections.] Order! Hon Paulsen, you are not referring to members of this House, both male and female by the way, as castrated bulls?



Mr M N PAULSEN: No, no ... [Inaudible.] ... Speaker, I would never refer to a female in any derogatory term, but if the castrated bull fits then ... you know, you can wear that title. However, I wasn’t referring to anyone specifically.



The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, that is very disrespectful. I wish you to withdraw that.



Mr M N PAULSEN: I withdraw.



The SPEAKER: Thank you very much.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.



The SPEAKER: Hon Mazzone?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I think it must be noted that with any luck at all after that congress, that really was hon Paulsen’s farewell speech forever. [Laughter.] [Applause.]



Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy Speaker, our hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, our Chairs of the House, hon members, as all of us are aware, this is a time reserved for light heartedness as we wish one another well for the festive season and reflect on our shared celebrations. It is usually our Chief Whip, as you know, who should be delivering these remarks. So, when you see me rising to the podium, I am sure you wonder if it means that a big announcement is coming. [Laughter.] The answer, hon colleagues, is no. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Not yet! [Laughter.]



Our Chief Whip, the hon Mr Singh, is engaged in meetings in Johannesburg, which should have left today’s task to the deputy. But, the IFP’s caucus believes that the atmosphere in our country does not lend itself to light heartedness. This is, in fact, a moment in which we dare not slip easily into banter and backslapping.



The end of this year brings with it dire circumstances, not for the majority of our people, but for all our people. South Africa is in crisis. We will either swim together or sink together. A headline in the newspaper this morning stated, “Act now or face recession!”



There is a political paralysis which I cannot understand


– a paralysis which actually pushes us right into the ditch. Forty years ago, I remember when I was still a young politician, Mrs Thatcher in London was faced with the same problem as we are facing. So, she sold all the parastatals and she slept down Arthur Scagel who was then the chairman of the trade union council.



With an economy on the verge of collapse, we have some very serious introspection to do during recess. More than



that, we have some very serious actions to take. We cannot sit back and put everything on hold until February 2020. There is just no space to postpone making the decisions and performing the actions that are needed to save South Africa.



What we heard in yesterday’s debate on 16 Days of Activism struck us to the heart. Our women and children are suffering, and the dark side of the festive season tells us that suffering is about to increase. We worry each year about road carnage, but we should be easily concerned by those who become victims of substance abuse in their own homes, at the hands of partners and fathers, at this time of year.



There is something broken in this society. And, while we live under the enormous pressure of poverty, inequality and injustice, it will be impossible to fix. This is a bitter dose of reality, and it is all the more unpalatable for being served at the closing of our work. We have faced this reality again and again in the course of our debates and questions this term.



How painful it is to carry this truth into the festive season! But that, my colleagues, is our burden as servants of the people. We carry this burden on behalf of South Africa. Hon Speaker, we thank you, we thank the Presiding Officers, as well as the Chief Whips, and all the staff of Parliament who do the background work that enables us to keep going. We wish you strength and rest. Amandla! [Power!]



HON MEMBERS: Ngawethu! [It’s ours!]



Prince M G BUTHELEZI: In the business of the coming festive season, let us remember not only our own needs, but the needs of those around us. May no one in our communities be lonely or without food. May no one weep or sigh. Whatever we are able to do, for anyone, let us do it. Because, as much as our work in this House effects sweeping change for South Africa, our work as individuals should have an impact on our neighbours, on our communities and on our families.



If we call ourselves leaders, let us lead with integrity. Not just in the limelight, but in smallest gesture that



nobody sees. In that spirit of servant leadership, I wish you well.





Nkosi Sikelel’ iAfrika. [Applause.]



Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, what an honour and a privilege to speak after the hon Buthelezi. At this podium, some politicians are found out and some politicians are rediscovered, and we saw that this afternoon. It is an honour and a privilege to speak after such a speech given by an elder statesman in the House.



What a tumultuous year we had, hon Speaker. Some of us may have forgotten. We started the year, then it was election mode and we went into elections. After the elections, and specifically today, it became clear to me that the term ‘plus’ is a very popular term. [Interjections.]



We at the FF-Plus are going to take exception to the fact that more and more parties now suddenly want to be called ‘plus’. [Laughter.] We cannot – we simply cannot allow



that. We solely claim ‘plus’ for ourselves and if anybody is going to claim that, I am going to take that to the Rules Committee. [Laughter.]  I am sorry, we cannot allow that! [Applause.]



Hon Speaker, in this year, we have seen many changes, and the hon Mazzone is correct: The only constant is change. We have seen a new Speaker in this year. We have seen a new executive – a new cabinet – in this year. We have seen a new leader of the Official Opposition in this year.



We have seen a new Chief Whip of the Official Opposition in this year, and we have seen many other things. That is what happens in politics. When we come at the end of the year like this, it is only appropriate that we stand still, think and reflect on where we came from during this whole year.



It has been a difficult year for many of the parties and for many of the colleagues on a personal level. But, here we are. We survived jointly this year. We even passed the



Budget although some of us objected correctly. So, here we are at the end of the year and it is now appropriate.



It is time for all of to go home to rest and to spend some quality time with our families because while we are working her day and night, we sometimes do not look after them the way that we should. That is just a reality of the job that we all are in.



I also would like to extend a word of thank you to the staff of Parliament. Those members of the staff right through - be that the catering staff; be that the security services; and be that the administrators of the committee sections - are the ones that work behind the scenes to make us as politicians look good. We should always remember that, be thankful, say thank you to them and appreciate what they are doing.



I want to wish all colleagues well in the festive season. Go home, rest, switch off your cellphones, take off your shoes, go and walk barefoot, just relax and enjoy.

However, next year we will be back, because next year is



the year before the next local government elections and the political fight will continue at the stage.



At this stage today, it is not the day for political fighting. It is not a day for scoring points. It is a day to respect one another as colleagues because in the end each and every one of us represents a full soccer stadium of voters out there who sent us to this place. We must act in a way that respects their wishes, their will and what they expect of us.



I say thank you on behalf of the FF-Plus. Go well. Rest well. We will see you next year. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr S N SWART: Speaker, we have come to the end of an extremely bus parliamentary session, which is followed by an equally busy elections season and also saw the ACDP growing. So, this sixth Parliament faces unprecedented challenges regarding the economic challenges, but today it is time for light heartedness and for us to just give thanks.



So, it has been a great honour to serve on a Chief Whips Forum chaired by the ANC’s Chief Whip, hon Pemmy. Thank you so much for your hard work and thanks to all the other Whips. Of course, to the hon John Steenhuisen: Congratulations on your appointment. It was wonderful to serve with you on the Chief Whips Forum as well.



I just wish that more people would be able to see the collegiality that exists in the Chief Whips Forum, in the Programming Committee chaired by the Speaker. In fact, in our committees, there is a lot of goodwill. Yes, we have disputes and we have debates here, but I do think people will be encouraged to see the good work that is done in our committees as well.



As the ACDP we also hosted an interparty prayer meeting earlier this year. This meeting was a great success and I am grateful to all MPs who attended. It would be great to see more MPs joining the Parliamentary Prayer Group which is headed by the hon Kate Bilankulu.



Perhaps next year we should all see if we can join that group because we need to stand next to each other in



prayer, to support one another, and of course praying for the issues facing our nation. Just think if before every session we could join together in – yes, we have a silent prayer or meditation, but earlier, if MPs that would like it will just come together in the House and pray.



It was also a great honour to welcome the World Cup Rugby winners, the Springboks, at Parliament. Again, we are indeed stronger together. So, let us embrace that moment of unity in our nation. It is also very important at this stage to thank all the parliamentary support services - the catering, cleaning, translation, Hansard, portfolio committee support, member’s support, legal services, travel support, library services and protection services.



Thank you to the SA Police Service’s Constable that helped my change the tyre of my car last week when I had a flat tyre. They really do serve us. So we also want to thank the NA Table and of course to the media representatives: Report on the work of Parliament to the broader South African public.



Thank you also from the ACDP to the Presiding Officers in the House. To the Speaker, Deputy Speaker and House Chairs, we appreciate everything you.         On behalf of the ACDP we would like to just pray the Lord bless you and keep you as Members of Parliament. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you! May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. May you be blessed this Christmas and new year. Have a good rest and see you in the new year. God bless! [Applause.]



Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Speaker and hon members, I would like to quote from Romans 12 verse 6 – 8:



We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently.



Hon members, this is our calling and responsibility as public representatives, as servants of the people of South Africa. As this year draws to a close, the UDM wishes to acknowledge the work of all the colleagues over the past couple of months but in particular acknowledges everyone around the table for a very consultative leadership approach that we have taken on matters affecting South Africa in Parliament this year.



To the executive authority of Parliament in particular,







... sifuna ukuthi malibongwe.





To the Whips, colleagues, Members of Parliament, the staff of Parliament we would like to say thank you to you for professionalism and hard work. Hon members, in order to strengthen the role of Parliament and its oversight function, Speaker it is important to look at he resources that we allocate to this institution as it carries out its critical work which needs to receive its attention.



This is the work of playing an oversight role over the work of the executive.



We also want to take this opportunity to say; as we enter 2020 perhaps what we need to do is to consider a system such as the one from the United Kingdom where ordinary citizens of the country can petition Parliament to debate matters of national importance. This is particularly important, given the magnitude of the problems facing South Africa at the moment and considering the fact that we do not have a monopoly of intelligence though we represent our people. Such problems will include gender- based violence, poverty, inequality, unemployment and the underperformance of the South African economy.



I wish to close with the words of the former president Kgalema Motlanthe in his 2013 tribute to the late Nelson Mandela where he asked whether his contribution to human progress will just be remembered or whether it will occasionally leap of faith in those with the power to make a difference to the abject social experience of the overwhelming number of the world’s people in whom Mandela’s life was bettered.



He continues and says importantly:



The litmus test of this leadership however is whether the inheritors of his dream that ends to his vision and the adherence of his philosophy will be able to make the dream for which he lived come to pass in the fullness of time.



On behalf of the UDM, I would like to wish all South Africans a blessed festive season and a rejuvenated start to 2020. May this year takes us from strength to strength and may Parliament fulfil its mandate as a voice of the people. Let us make the dream for which Nelson Mandela lived come to pass in 2020. I thank you very much and merry Christmas and happy New Year. [Applause.]



Mr S N AUGUST: Hon Speaker, I would like to thank the Presiding Officers, fellow Members of Parliament and parliamentary officials for shifting up in their benches and making room for Good. Just about everyone we have dealt and worked with at the Parliament has been welcoming and gracious. On the election trail on the beginning of the year, we heard over and over that the



citizens were sick and tired of the unparliamentary scenes and the disruptive rudeness and violence coming out of Parliament. I am proud to have been part of this collective with you that has begun to fix that.



But let us not forget that fixing our country should not only apply when this House sits. As we go on a holiday, the issues of gender-based violence, crime, alcohol and drug abuse amongst many other issues will still continue. That is why Good believes that leadership must start at home and in our communities. We have to be the example to society, our children, families and neighbours.



Hon Speaker, we live in a beautiful country where we must take collective responsibility to keep it that way. Many tourists are visiting and we want to truly show them what we can offer as a country. It has been an honour and privilege for me to serve and begin the task of fixing South Africa. On behalf of the Good movement I wish all South Africans a safe and secure festive season. Stay safe on the roads and do not drink and drive.



In 2019 South Africa took the difficult first steps to recover its balance and next year we have mountains to climb. It is time for some rest and to reflect on the year past; the families we have met, health and the lives we have changed. Have a good holiday and good blessings to all.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, it is nice to see you in the House today. [Laughter.] Let me start of by saying, 2019 indeed was a very eventful year. Yes, indeed I think there have been many successes, particularly in the rugby and netball. We congratulate our sportsmen and women.

Many people have received new homes, some received water; some received sanitation but let us not forget that many of them still need homes, water and sanitation and a better quality of life.



Yes indeed we have had some serious challenges particularly with the rate of crime in the country. We have lost many of our loved ones through gender-based violence. However, I think what is important here is that we need to come together as a united South Africa in the interest of the people we serve.



I want to take this opportunity of wishing the President of the country, the Deputy President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon Speaker, Deputy Speaker, members of this House, leaders of different political parties in the House. I want to wish you well over the festive season for those of you who celebrate Christmas. May you have a joyous Christmas?



Let us also be mindful of those that are homeless, less fortunate and let us also not forget that as public representatives, these people are dependent on us. So Let us try and see what we could do in this period to also make their lives comfortable so that they too can enjoy this particular festive season that we are approaching.



Now, I want to take this opportunity hon Speaker of apologising to anyone in this House that I may have offended through my utterances over the 2019 period. Although they say the truth hurts but of course I think I may have said a lot of things and touched a lot of nerves but in one way I am glad that I have done that. Indeed, it was a spirit of debating; of ensuring that we put our



differences aside and also acknowledge the good work that is done and not forgetting the challenges that we face.



Finally, let me say to all of you, have a fantastic festive; drive safely; keep the alcohol down; love your children; spend time with your wives; pay your maintenance and I wish you all. [Applause.]



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: hon Speaker, under these difficult times, we are supposed to abound to come together and celebrate the end of the year, and wish each and everyone all the best. The year 2019, a year of elections has been long and short. Long in a sense that we had a lot to do in the short space of time, and short because we started in May. It has been a good stay together, and we thank each and everyone for the cooperation, the Members of Parliament, the staff, party leaders and the chief Whips. This could not been possible without you all.



Of course, the debates that we have been engaged in were very robust as expected, but there were no incidents of members at least this time being taken by force out of this House. We do appreciate that at least it didn’t



happen. Most of the members were obeying the instructions from the Presiding Officers. This is the behaviour we always cherish as the AIC.



Speaker, we still have a lot to do. We still have so many Bills before us. After recess we should push hard in order to achieve our targets. It is hard work that we are doing here. Other people think that we are just playing. Hon Speaker, of course, there’s no money as we are working here, but we’ve got to do what the South Africans have mandated us to come and do here. Therefore, it is exactly very important for us to carry that mandate on their behalf.



I believe we are all equal to the task. Let us therefore deliver services to the people. Hopefully, when we come back the Ministers will be in a position to attend to Parliament in order for them to answer questions from the Members of Parliament because these questions are very important. So, they should change and attend.



Members, it is now time for us to go home and enjoy with our families, so that we can come back fresh and get down



to business as usual. We wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year. Fair thee well. I thank you.



Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Speaker, I rise to wish all members here present a good rest over the coming one and half months, that’s when I checked. I here speak of plus or minus 7000 hours. I say a good rest because momentous challenges faced by our country and her people need both a united and cohesive hand to ensure a proper response when we return. I must say thank you as well to you hon Speaker, Deputy Speaker and the Chairpersons, you have done very well.



Instead of merely rising to ululate and declare that we are now going to enjoy ourselves next to our country’s seas, enjoy braaivleis with our families, play, albeit most of us are old, with our friends and enjoy sleeping for more than 7000 hours, I propose that we ask ourselves a few questions: The first is, has this Sixth Parliament succeeded? Secondly, has this Sixth Parliament truly represented South Africans and is it intra-democratic?



Unless empirical evidence is here supplied, I have no doubt that antithesis is the case. I say this because all MPs represent South Africans, all of us were elected, but in very many instances, all MPs endorse decisions of unelected, employed beaurecracy of our country. This is because the people’s representatives gather daily in portfolio meetings, receive reports, raise clarity questions, come to this main House, engage in what I remain convinced is the absence of intra-democratic debates, and whoever rises to say this is how I believe the matter must be dealt with, they are either booed or told that they are out of order. Why? Because they in opposition.



Dear South Africans, Lo! Consider this, and this indeed has got to be looked into. Deputy hon Speaker and my Speaker, please use those 7000 hours to say, when we return, we shall move in unison as we say to our own President that, the four rugby squads that I spoke about at some stage, that has got to be looked into, so that we then can be able to create jobs for the people of our country. But thank you very much all of you here present. Thank you, hon Speaker.



Mr M NYHONTSO: Let me first take this opportunity to convey our heartfelt condolences to the family of Anele Hoyana in east London who was killed by a white farmer two days ago. To borrow from Clarens Makwetu, “Apla reserved the right to defend African people when they are attacked.” Secondly Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank uBaba uShenge, Prince Buthelezi, for a gift ...





... andinike yona izolo ...





... of a photo resume and PAC founding President, Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe. This we highly appreciate as we are in a mission as PAC to trace pictures, audio recordings and video recordings that remain outlawed to date by the powers that be. How can we be expected to believe that there is not a single available recording of Sobukwe including court records?



Tatu’Shenge, you were fighting for the African cause with our grandfathers, with our fathers and now with us here today. There must be a great reason why God is protecting



you and keeping you this far. If he was alive, President Robert Sobukwe would be turning 95 years tomorrow, 5 December. He must be smiling with great appreciation in his grave. God bless you, Tatu’Shenge. Go enjoy your Christmas and come back revived in the New Year. [Applause.]





Somlomo, emva kokuba ndiqhaqhe la mvulophu inalo mfanekiso kaTata uShenge noSobukwe, ndigqibe ekubeni ndiye e-Exclusive Books ndithenge incwadi entsha ethi, Robert Mangaliso Sobukhwe: New Reflections ebhalwe ngabantu abaninzi abaquka noMphathiswa uNkosazana Dlamini Zuma, yaza yahlelwa ngu Benjamin Pogrund. Ndiyithengele uTata uShenge njengomntu owazi uSobukwe ukuze ndive ukuba uyangqinelana kusini na nalo mHebhere uPogrant xa esithi uSobukwe...





...was naïve, after 40 years...





...kodwa uthi wayengumhlobo wakhe.



In conclusion, let us all here as members of the National Assembly, leadership of our society go home and we must conduct individual self-introspection to self-check if all what we do here is in the best interest and the wellbeing of our fellow countrymen. We are the only hope our people have. I thank you



Mr M G HENDRICKS: I would like to thank the hon Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and the House Chairs for the leadership that they have given to make the Sixth Parliament, possibly the best Parliament that we will ever have. The hard work of the Table has not gone unnoticed, and I’m sure that all of us appreciate all the work that they do behind the scenes.



Being a new kid on the block, on my first day I had my baptism of fire when I engaged with the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker and argued that, when the smaller liberation movements were in trenches with the bigger liberation movements, there was no proportion of dodging of bullets, and that’s why there should not be proportionate allocation of speaking time. So, we agree to disagree on that.



Madam Speaker, I must say that I enjoyed my stay whilst I tried participating in several portfolio committee meetings by stretching myself. I would like to thank the Chairmen, especially of Environment, Small Business, Health as well as Home Affairs for the way that they taught me how to participate in those proceedings. But more importantly than that, Madam Speaker, I must say that contrary to my initial perceptions, the Members of this House are very hard working.



I see their work, obviously in the Chamber, when I engage with them in the portfolio committee meetings and when they hit the road. But I think the country does not realise the sacrifices and the dedication of hon Members of the House. South Africa is very grateful for that. I would like to wish everyone a safe festive season, especially the Minister of police and the Minister of Transport.



We know that you are going to be very busy and please know that it is indeed appreciated. So, I would like to conclude by wishing everyone an enjoyable festive season.







ohloniphekileyo, naMagosa ongameleyo onke ephela...





...hon members of this august House...





... amathunzi anabile, abantwana bayatshisana, utywala butyiwa ziintsipho. Mandigqagqanise ke ndixel’umgqakhwe usitya ilifa kuba kudala sihleli kule ndawo.





We met in this Sixth Parliament, after intensive elections campaign. South Africa’s democracy is maturity, wherein we have 14 political parties represented in this National Assembly. As the ANC we have accepted democratic mandate with humility. We share pains and grief of our people. We started on an equal footing guided by our commitment to move South Africa forward. We are called upon as these public representatives to be midwives in our society. South African citizens are looking upon us on how we conduct ourselves. We are custodian of



Constitution and the oath that we took remains our moral compass on we behave and conduct ourselves in order to keep the decorum of this House.



I must commend all hon members of this House for their co-operation on matters of national importance and constructive debates which occurred during these six months that we are in office. Our quest to build the South Africa we want is still on track. We welcome the proceedings of all commissions because we are committed to clean governance, we don’t fear any revelations that are done to those commissions as the ANC. [Applause.]



We as ANC also acknowledge challenges facing our economy and commit to oversight on effective spending of limited resources that we currently have. The investment drive by the President is one of the milestones that is taking this country forward.





La mawele mathathu...






...unemployment, poverty and inequality they remain a challenge that must occupy us at all the times. We must confront them with difficulties that the country finds itself. We must be bearers of hope not doom. The Springbok win is one of the critical sports that have managed to revive and unite South Africans.



During this festive season, let us all be foot soldiers in fighting against all forms of gender-based violence and femicide. Unity and peace in our families is sacrosanct, because families remain a nucleus of nation building and social cohesion. We must hold our high moral values even during festivities...





...nokuba senza ntoni na kodwa...





...we hold our morals. One death on roads is too many, as road carnages are fatalities and fatalities cause hard hardships to families. We condemn the death of initiates in this period.





Mabaye bephilile, babuye bephilile.





During this festive season let us do that wisely preparing for rainy days.



Ubuntu must guide us to lend a hand to needy people, as we have done with as this Members of Parliament, MPs, during the Mandela Month, we went out to give to the poor and to the needy. During the Women’s Parliament we did the same. I’m calling on all members to who adopted children in the schools that we visited, don’t abandoned those children. They are calling, wanting to know where are they parents because you adopted them.



Only one member has gone back to give support ebantwaneni [to the children]. We wish see you hon members in one piece in 2020, May the Almighty God shower you with tons of blessings. I want to thank caucus staff of the ANC, the Parliament staff ...






... kude kwalapha uThixo enathi.





Tata Madiba once said and I quote:



What counts in life it is not mere fact that have we lived, it is what we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead.



To the EFF as you go to that conference, go and finish yourselves up, we will be watching you. The nice present to the ANC at this hour in the City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality, we are mayors of Johannesburg and we are saying we are going to take South Africa forward. [Applause.] We have seen...



The SPEAKER: ...please take your seats.



Mr P P KEETSE: On a point of order.



The SPEAKER: Order! You are on a point of order, what is your point of order.



Mr P P KEETSE: We were not aware that boroto [bread] can cause things to be like this, you know...



The SPEAKER: ...thank you very much, that’s not a point of order, please proceed Chief Whip.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We appreciate the fact that people of Johannesburg they know who can lead them. While the ANC has the overwhelming majority there, we are going to lead all people of Johannesburg, in changing their lives as we have done in the past. [Laughter.] While the ANC has overwhelming majority of representatives in this House, we believe in building consensus by fostering a culture of mature political management of matters. All members, please don’t drink and drive, please don’t drink and walk, drink and get into your bed. We wish you a very good festive season, happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]



The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Maybe we should start at that point where we drink and get into bed. [Laughter.] Maybe we should be looking at how we navigate into beds that



belong to us with people who are also agreeable to sharing the beds with us. [Laughter.] Maybe we should look out to what we contribute to those things that will make us meander into beds and maybe we should make sure that they make us tipsy but pleasant, so that the Christmas and the festive season really flow in our beds.



We had difficult times in the House but we are very happy that the difficult were not antagonistic, were not confrontational, were about the issues which sometimes made us disagree on the floor of this House but needed to be said nevertheless. I have always prided myself that I have always believed in multipartism and for me what is unpleasant when it comes to an opponent is something which I think builds that strong multipartism that I believe in, because it gives me the side of what those that I may not necessarily be every day would say, think, need and aspire for. So when we go into the Christmas season, we must remember that we represent a very diverse society, they look at us, the top 400 of South Africa.

They see in us, their successes and their failures. We mirror what is out there and therefore because we are conscious of what mirror out there perhaps we should try



and put on the best foot, perhaps we should watch our little feet, the words that spill out of our minds, into our mouths, out there into the public a little bit more carefully, because we need to unite South Africa, not only because it is Christmas, not only because netball and rugby did well, but because we need each for this country to survive.



We talk about the economy that is not doing well, we contribute towards that. Hon Blade Ndzimande used to talk about national gross happiness being in deficit, we are in that deficit mode, and we need to do something to ensure that we increasingly begin to see each other as South Africa as equal, as happy, as healthy, as free to speak and as free to associate and that association, hon members because over the festive season we will hear about girls being raped. We will hear about people who are differently sexed being raped. We will hear about corrective rapes for lesbian women, we must be very clear, that it is not done in our name.



Those of who are better Christians than I, please pray for us. Pray for us for Christmas to reign happily, pray



for hon Fikile Mbalula to able to sleep, because not trucks and buses are overturning and killing tens of our people. Pray for Ntate Cele not to be arresting too many people, pray for family time, pray for happy times. I wish to wish everybody ourselves, the members, the staff of Parliament and all the other people out there who are not necessarily directly connected to Parliament, but who do offer services. The bafundisi [pastors] across South Africa who keep this Parliament in prayers, I wish to thank you all and I wish you well. Thank you very much.



Debate concluded.



The House adjourned at 16:58.