Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 26 Nov 2019
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
TUESDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 2019
Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhGXMa_DPuU
PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
The Council met at 14:03.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Many members would have noticed that the President yesterday launched the campaign on 16 Days of Activism Against Women and Children at Lephalale in the greater Ellisras area. This is supposed to last from 25 November 2019 to 10 December 2019. Can I then proceed to find out if any member wishes to give a Notice of Motion?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Although I think the House notes with great pleasure that the President has declared 16 Days of Activism Against Women and Children, I do also think that perhaps it is necessary for us to state that we need everyday as a day of activism against violence on women and children. Thank you, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am sure members will agree to that so that we must do everything possible within our power to ensure that the campaign does not only proceed, but that we continue to do the kind of things that needs to be done– I am sure member Nchabeleng will agree - to ensure that the campaign becomes almost a culture – a day-to-day thing that we do in our lives.
Does any member wish to give a Notice of Motion? I just wish to say that the maximum time allocated for this purpose is 20 minutes. So, there will be one-and-a-half minute allocated per motion.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms M MOKAUSE: Chairperson of the Council, I rise on behalf of the EFF that in its next sitting:
The Council-
(1) debates and find solutions on the conditions of Kuruman Hospital’s mortuary, which serves the entire Ga-Segonyana and the surrounding municipal area is dysfunctional; and
(2) acknowledges that this situation has compromised a lot of families which cannot afford private mortuaries and depend on government services.
Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the DA , that in its next sitting:
The Council-
(1) debates the state of police stations in South Africa, especially the KwaNonqaba Police Station in Mossel Bay;
(2) acknowledges the responsibility of the state to ensure a safe and professional working environment for police; and
(3) notes the negative knock-on effects when these stations are not up to standard and how it affects society, their safety, the economy as well as the moral of those that serve there and those that they should serve.
Ms D G MAHLANGU: moved without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that 25 November marks the United Nations International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, which is an occasion for governments, international organizations and nongovernmental organizations to raise public awareness of violence against women;
(2) further notes that this also marks the beginning of the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign, which starts from 25 November to 10 December to highlight the scourge of gender-based violence and the brutality that continues to face many women and children across the globe; ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Proceed!
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, although I have a great deal of sympathy for ... Well, the first point of order is that if one member is on his feet, another member should sit down. Although I have a lot of sympathy for the motion that the hon member has just
made, my point of order is based on the fact that it is a Motion Without Notice and not a Notice of a Motion.
Chairperson, we go through this almost every time that there are motions. We had four trainings about it. It really it is starting to become a problem that members still don’t know the difference between these motions and they are not receiving great help from the Chair either.
I would request because it does take an opportunity from us to either object to, if there is an objectionable point in the motion, which I don’t think it’s going to be in that specific motion. But, Chairperson, there is a reason why the Rules look the way they do and I would like to request your assistance for the rest of the members to actually ensure that these Rules are enforced and that you familiarise yourself with it. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, the problem that we really have is indeed what the member is pointing out. The Notice of a Motion should really be very brief and be articulated broadly as indeed is the case by amongst others – just specifically saying that in the next sitting of the Council, we shall have a debate, for example, on the legacy of Verwoerd. [Laughter.]
Now, that is the kind of the kind of thing that we need to do. Once your motion is a bit longer, it suggests that we are dealing with the next item, which should be a Motion Without Notice. So, I am going to urge members to really pay attention to this issue and I have asked the Whips of political parties in the past to assist us to engage this issue in a proper manner – a manner that I have already outlined.
So, I would then go back to what we are supposed to be doing, Looking at Notices of Motion. Please be brief. The detailed-type of motion will be dealt with in the second step, if I may say so.
Whips, please assist us as we move into the future so that this matter does not take away our time and is managed properly. Yes, hon member. I thought there was a hand here. If there is no other motion, then hon Mokause!
Ms M MOKAUSE: Chairperson, let me state categorically clear that the future of this House, which is the EFF, knows the difference between Notices of Motion and Motions Without Notice. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Because, you [inaudible.] we did not attend the training and all of you attended the training, but today all of you are confusing the House.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the EFF that in its next sitting:
The Council-
(1) debates and finds solutions to the problems of community health care workers in the Northern Cape who are exploited by the provincial health department, working in difficult conditions without benefits; and
(2) notes that for very long time, these volunteers have been working as volunteers and no other benefits.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. The next motion!
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chair, point of order! Point of order, Chair!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We shall ... Let’s hear the point of order!
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is simple and that is: If that is the future; the future is not very bright. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Mr S E MFAYELA: Hon Chairperson, I move on behalf of the IFP, that at its next sitting:
The Council debates the safety and security affecting all public services officials that provide health services to the nation.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
COMMEMORATION OF UN’S INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR THE ELIMINATION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D G MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) notes that 25 November marks the United Nation’s International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, which is an occasion for governments, international organisations and nongovernmental organisations to raise public awareness of violence against women;
(2) further notes that this also marks the beginning of the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign, which starts from 25 November to 10 December to highlight the scourge of gender-based violence and the brutality that continues to face many women and children across the globe;
(3) takes this opportunity to join the nation and the rest of the world in lending a voice support to rally our nation to condemn in the strongest possible terms the brutality that many women and children, especially girl-children continue to face in this country; and
(4) expresses its support to the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MPUMALANGA INTERNATIONAL FRESH PRODUCE MARKET EXPERIENCES COMPLETION DELAYS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) notes with concern that after 6 years the Mpumalanga International Fresh Produce Market is nowhere near completion as there is not even a structure on site, except the foundations;
(2) also notes that the budget for this project has been reduced by over R200 million which may again lead to further delays;
(3) further notes that Mpumalanga’s unemployment rate currently stands at 42,5%;
(4) calls on the MEC for Finance and Economic Development to do everything in his/her power to prevent further delays with this project to ensure Mpumalanga’s economy is stimulated and afford those without work employment at this construction; and
(5) recognises that by the end of 2018, the Western Cape’s expanded unemployment rate was 23,1%, 14 points below the
national average with 29 000 new jobs created last year, demonstrating the province’s ability and will to govern well.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, I will speak in both Afrikaans and English, so members can make use of the interpreting service.
Afrikaans:
Voorsitter, namens die VF Plus stel ek sonder kennisgewing voor:
Dat die Raad—
(1) kennis neem dat nog een van ons boere die afgelope Sondag,
24 November, naby Wolmaranstad in die Noordwes Provinsie aangeval en koelbloedig vermoor is, terwyl sy vrou wreed aangerand was, getraumatiseerd en as weduwee agtergelaat is;
English:
(2) notes that food security in South Africa is currently under siege as a result of drought and our farming community which is under constant threat;
(3) further notes that the Minister of Police and the MECs of Public Safety in all provinces are urged to prioritise crime prevention and the safety of our people;
(4) also notes that it is unacceptable that hard working and God- fearing people are being stalked and slaughtered like animals while government doesn’t seem to notice this inhumane acts of brutality;
Afrikaans:
Die regering besef nie watter belangrike bydrae die boerdery gemeenskap tot die land se ekonomie maak nie. Hulle is die ruggraat van die platteland se ekonomie.
Genoeg is genoeg. Die VF Plus doen ’n beroep op die gemeenskappe om by veiligheidstrukture in te skakel en hulself binne die raamwerk van die wet te beveilig en te verdedig.
Mag die Liewe Vader elke familie asook hul werkers wat deur die plaasaanvalle geraak is, gedurende hierdie tyd bystaan en versterk. Mag die Liewe Vader gee dat ware geregtigheid sal geskied.
Ons mense kan egter nie nou gaan lê nie. Ons voorouers het gewerk, gesneuwel, opgestaan na vele terugslae, voortgebeur en aangehou. Ons kan nie hierdie nalatenskap waarvoor hulle bloed gestort het, verlore laat gaan nie. Daar is steeds hoop. Ons dien ’n almagtige God: die God wat ons voorouers beskerm en gedra het. Hierdie is die tyd vir ons mense om hande te vat, om saam te staan ...
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I urge hon members to, please, not take this opportunity to make a speech.
Mr S F DU TOIT: It is not a speech, hon Chair, I have three minutes.
In closing ...
Afrikaans:
Daar is steeds hoop. Ons dien ’n almagtige God. Dieselfde God wat ons voorouers beskerm en gedra het ... Hierdie is die tyd vir ons om
hande te vat, saam te staan, en ons saak by ons Vader te bepleit. Dankie.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is the motion. Is there any objection to it? [Interjections.] Yes, so the motion will not be proceeded with and will become notice of a motion.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, by the House not agreeing that the Minister of Police and the MECs prioritising the brutality, they are, in effect, saying that what is currently happening to the people of South Africa is correct.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much! Thank you very much! Hon Londt.
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J J LONDT: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) congratulates the Mossel Bay Municipality rugby team on winning the South Western Districts Municipal Challenge Series;
Afrikaans:
Hierdie nuwe reeks was vanjaar vir die eerste keer gehou nadat die SA Rugby Unie, Saru, die Suidwestelike Distrikte, SWD, unie gevra het om die loodsprojek te bestuur. Die kompetisie was baie goed ondersteun deur gemeenskappe van regoor die Tuinroete, asook ’n span vanuit die Sentraal Karoo.
Gedurende die kompetisie het die Mosselbaai Munisipaliteit, verskeie besighede en gemeenskappe hande geneem met die spelers om die sukses van hierdie toernooi te bewerkstellig.
Mosselbaai Munisipaliteit het in die finaal die George Munisipaliteit verslaan om die eerste munisipale uitdaagreeks se gemeenskapsbeker afdeling te wen.
Ek versoek dus dat die Huis hul gelukwensing en dank oordra aan die gemeenskappe, die besighede, asook die munisipale rolspelers wat bydraes gelewer het tot die suksesvolle kompetisie.
English:
(2) and that we thank all participating teams and coaches for the commitment they have shown throughout, with a special acknowledgment and congratulations to the team from Mossel Bay that ensures that we will have the bragging rights next year.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MS LEBOGANG RAMAFOKO LEAVES SOUL CITY INSTITUTE FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M N GILLION: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) notes that after 24 years at the Soul City Institute for Social Justice, nine of which were served as the chief executive, Ms Lebogang Ramafoko will leave the organisation at the end of the year;
(2) further notes that Ms Remafoko’s journey with the Soul City Institute for Social Justice began just after the new democracy in 1994 when she was appointed as one of the many activists who championed the institute’s social justice and community outreach programmes that are geared towards using a combination of mass media, social mobilisation and advocacy to improve the quality of life and health of young women and girls and the communities they live in; and
(3) takes this opportunity to pay homage to Ms Lebogang Ramafoko for her indelible contribution at the Soul City Institute for Social Justice and the role that she played in leading an organisation that has shaped the lives of many South Africans, especially young girls.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PASTOR SIYABULELA MATINI STAYS BEHIND BARS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr E J NJANDU: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) notes that a Khayelitsha pastor accused of raping three girls will stay behind bars until his next court appearance in February in the new year, 2020;
(2) further notes that Pastor Siyabulela Matini of the Worship of God Church made a brief appearance in the Khayelitsha Magistrates Court where the case was postponed until February 20, for further investigations;
(3) also notes that Matini faces three counts of rape of children between 10 and 14 years, with two of the children being siblings; and
(4) takes this opportunity to welcome the arrest of this pastor and hopes that he will face the full might of the law for his perverted acts.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution
BRUTAL CRIME BEFALLS MS PRECIOUS RAMABULANA
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) notes with utmost sadness and grief the brutal and senseless killing of Ms Precious Ramabulana, a student at Capricorn Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET;
(2) further notes that Ms Ramabulana was brutally raped and stabbed 52 times in her sleep on the eve of the beginning of the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign, which started on Monday, 25 November and will proceed to 10 December to highlight the horrifying pane of gender-based violence in this country; and
(3) takes this opportunity to condemn in the harshest terms this senseless and brutal murder of Ms Ramabulana.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
INSURANCE COMPANIES ATTRACT MILLIONS OF BLACK PEOPLE
Ms S A LUTHULI: I rise on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters and move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the conduct of insurance companies over the past few years that attract millions of black people to take up life and funeral policies with them and then refuse to pay out when people die;
(2) further notes that Old Mutual has been the most notorious with this conduct and were recently on the news for badly handling the funeral cover claim of Mr Sfiso Mtshali which led the desperate family of Mr Sfiso Mtshali to take extraordinary steps of taking the corpse to Old Mutual office; and
(3) acknowledges that these actions are not to be seen as good in this country and there is a need to revise the law governing these funeral services companies.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Chair. The hon member has already read the motion that I wanted to raise. Thank you.
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you, Chairperson. I hereby give notice that at the next sitting day of the Council I will move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the shortage of water, especially in rural areas like Bushbuckridge, Dr J S Thembisile Moroka, Giyani and all other areas that are affected by drought.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
AUDIT OUTCOMES FOR PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, Chairperson. On behalf of the Democratic Alliance I hereby wish to move:
That this Council-
(1) notes the recent Auditor-General report on the 2018-19 audit outcomes for provincial governments;
(2) further notes that in this report 79% of Western Cape, a department clean audits outcome;
(3) also notes that where government do well they need to be praised and learn from;
(4) notes that the Free State received not a single clean audit, 0% with 69% of the auditees requiring urgent intervention;
(5) acknowledges that in a country where unemployment is creeping nearer to 30% and people, especially young people, are left out of the opportunities as well as where service delivery is falling apart, these results of the Free State are unaccepatable; and
(6) calls upon the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance & Traditional Affairs to organise a bit of a meeting between the Western Cape, the best-run provincial government in the country, and the Free State, the worst-run in the country, so
that they can learn from the DA how to govern in the interest of the people.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion? There is an objection to the motion; the motion will now become notice of a motion at a later stage.
TRAINS ON THE CENTRAL LINE SUSPENDED
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you, Hon Chairperson. On behalf of the African National Congress I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that commuters in Khayelitsha and Mitchells Plain have been left out of affordable transport access to the city centre, with at least 22 days of no trains and 179 days of no MyCity buses;
(2) further notes that it was still not clear when train services on the central line between Cape Town, Khayelitsha and
Mitchells Plain would resume after being suspended earlier this month;
(3) also notes that the failure of the city to negotiate a new contract on the MyCity N2 Express is not only affecting ordinary workers but also job seekers who were given free rides to help them seek employment; and
(4) takes this opportunity to call on Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and the City of Cape Town to resolve the problems that are affecting this important service to our people as soon as possible.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF SOLIDARITY WITH THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. On behalf of the African National Congress I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that 29 November marks the United Nation International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people, which is the global of the observed in terms of resolution 181 that was adopted by United Nations General Assembly on 29 December 1947;
(2) further notes that this is an intended to highlight the plight of the people of Palestine in their quest for their freedom; and
(3) takes this opportunity to join the rest of the world in showing solidarity to the people of Palestine.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion? There is an objection to the motion. Therefore, the motion will now become notice of a motion.
AMAXHOSA KING DIES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S J MOHAI: There are some who object for to a better Africa and the better world in this House. Therefore, we must pardon their
ignorance to find lasting peace in the world. Hon Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with profound sadness of loss and grief the passing away of the AmaXhosa King, King Mpendulo Zwelonke Sigcawu last Thursday, 14 November 2019;
(2) further notes that King Sigcawu will be remembered for his relentless quest for unity of our people across ethnic, racial, gender and social status for the common good for all and his selfless service to our people for a better future;
(3) also notes that King Sigcawu lived and stood true to the fundamental African values of ubuntu and human solidarity without fail. By his deeds and lifestyle, he always saw himself as a humble servant of the people with unparalleled passion to uplift the poor, the vulnerable and the weakest; and
(4) takes this opportunity to extend its heartfelt condolences to the family of the late King, the AmaXhosa Royal Palace and
the Eastern Cape House of Traditional Leaders and the entire nation. We share their loss and grief at this darkest hour.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
BAFANA BAFANA EDGE SUDAN
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) Congratulates Bafana Bafana with their win against Sudan on
17 November 2019 at Orlando Stadium under the leadership of coach Molefi Ntseki.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SA WATER CRISIS DEEPENS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A B CLOETE: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes that the access to water is increasingly becoming an urgent issue that need attention in South Africa;
(2) also notes that the current drought across the country, but particularly in the North West, Free State as well as in the Eastern Cape, could become the single most harmful situation that could affect our country not only environmentally but also socioeconomically;
(3) further notes the report about water security which was tabled in Parliament by the Minister Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation, hon Lindiwe Sisulu, states:
(a) South Africa’s dam building programme is a decade behind schedule;
(b) faulty pumps are resulting in the loss of great amounts of water;
(c) leaks and poor water infrastructure leads to a tremendous loss of water each year.
(d) poor or dysfunctional sewage plants also result in large amounts of sewage flowing into rivers and dams; and
(e) the demand in many areas exceeds supply and that water, which should be saved for later, is now used.
(4) also notes that as much as 41% of the country’s potable water is being lost owing to leakages, despite the War on Leaks project of 2015;
(5) acknowledges that municipalities are vital in ensuring that water is regarded as the single most valuable resource; and
thus requests the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Service Delivery to:
(a) investigate and report on the impact and effect of water losses owing to leakages in municipalities; and
(b) call upon the committee to present viable solutions that could be implemented by the different levels of government to ensure the provision of safe and reliable water.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE OUT OF CONTROL IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S E MFAYELA: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes that a nurse was allegedly raped at a hospital in Northern KwaZulu-Natal on 3 November 2019;
(2) acknowledges that gender-based violence is out of control in South Africa and not even those who provide essential care giving services are safe from assault and rape;
(3) calls for the Minister of Police to work together with the Minister of Health and all relevant stakeholders to accommodate satellite police stations at all state hospitals;
(4) further calls for these satellite stations to perform duties of safety in hospitals and to provide services for victims to open cases at hospitals when they come in for treatment after gender-based violence, GBV or rape; and
(5) resolve that the government must do more to ensure safety in hospitals and that the perpetrator must be brought to book with speed.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
BRUTAL KILLINGS IN NORTHERN CAPE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes the continued brutal killings in Northern Cape schools particularly of the 14-year-old who died in Rosedene in Upington;
(2) further notes that not long ago a similar incident happened about a 170 km away from Upington in Postmasburg;
(3) also notes that the absence of government in intervening is worrisome;
(4) acknowledges that pupils and the entire schooling community cannot continue to be terrorised and losing their lives and nothing is being done; and
(5) calls on the Minister of Police and Minister of Basic Education to deploy police to schools not only Adopt-A-Cop police programme but to make sure that our schooling community is safe.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIRST SA WOMAN CHIEF ENGINEER IN DEEP SEA TRAWLING FISHING INDUSTRY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A ARNOLDS: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) congratulates Lucinda Krige from Kraaifontein in the Western Cape, who has become the first woman in South Africa to qualify as a Chief Engineer in the deep sea trawling fishing industry.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CHILD JUSTICE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question. I shall therefore move on to ask hon Shaik to make a declaration. [Applause.]
Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, hon members of this august House, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, Amendment Bill
emanates from a Constitutional Court judgement. On 6 September 2016, the Constitutional Court held that sections 6(3)(a) and 6(6) of the IPID Act which allowed for the suspension, disciplinary action and removal of the Executive Director by the Minister of Police, were invalid and inconsistent with section 206(6) of the Constitution which refers to an independent police complaints body.
The Portfolio Committee on Police in the National Assembly initiated the committee Bill in order to give effect to the Constitutional Court judgment. The Independent Police Investigative Directorate Amendment Bill contains three clauses and the amendments aim to:
Cure the constitutional defects identified by the Constitutional Court; and provide for greater independence of the Executive Director in fulfilling his obligations and mandate; and to create legal certainty on the process for suspension and removal of the Executive Director.
The Bill was referred to the fifth Parliament Select Committee on Security and Justice on 4 September 2018. The fifth Parliament select committee advertised the Bill for public comment and received seven submissions on the Bill. During its deliberations on the Bill and the submissions, it became clear to the committee that most of
the submissions refer to a process that is broader than the amendments contained in the current Bill before the Committee. The organisations, including IPID, wished to have the entire IPID Act reviewed which fell outside the ambit of the current amendments to the Bill before the committee.
The committee therefore noted that while there was a need for a broader review of the IPID Act, the broader policy discussion would be better placed at the departmental level. Due to the fact that the IPID Amendment Bill before the committee only sought to remedy the constitutional provisions of the IPID Act, the committee adopted the Bill without any amendments.
The committee is of the view that the constitutional amendments to the IPID Bill, will contribute to ensuring IPID’s independence as an institution capable of fulfilling its important role of being a watchdog over SAPS. The Select Committee on Security and Justice recommends that the NCOP adopts the report and the Bill with no amendments. Thank you Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It does appear as if the hon Shaik has been dealing with the Second Order on the Order Paper and not the
First Order as required. So can I please request her to please come back to the podium and deal with the First Order?
Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, my apologies. It has been a long day. But once again, hon Chairperson and members of this august House, the Child Justice Amendment Bill’s primary objective is to amend the Child Justice Act, 2008, Act No 75 of 2008, in order to:
Increase the minimum age of criminal capacity of a child, to remove the requirement to prove criminal capacity for purposes of diversion and preliminary inquiries and to provide for consequential amendments.
One of the key features of the Child Justice Act is that it provides for a minimum age of criminal capacity of children. The age of criminal capacity is defined as the age children are presumed to know the difference between right and wrong and to act in accordance with that knowledge. The key aim therefore of the Child Justice Amendment Bill is to increase the age of criminal capacity of children from 10 to 12 years as this would also be in line with South Africa’s international obligations.
South Africa ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the African Charter, and thereby incurred various obligations regarding the treatment of children, including children in conflict with the law. States parties, like South Africa, were encouraged to increase their minimum age of criminal capacity to 12 years as an absolute minimum and to continue to increase it to a higher age level. It is in line with this obligation that the committee agreed to increase the age of criminal capacity from 10 years to 12 years and noted that the department would review the age within five years again.
The fifth Parliament Select Committee on Security and Justice advertised the Bill for public comment. Two submissions were received; one from the Centre for Child Law and the second one from Mr Marius Redelinghuys. During its deliberations on the Bill and the submissions, the department noted that the Centre for Child Law submission was largely catered for by the Portfolio Committee on Justice amendments made to the Bill and the department replied in detail to Mr Redelinghuys’ submission.
In light of this, the committee determined that no amendments were required to the Bill and proceeded to adopt the Bill without amendments. The Select Committee on Security and Justice recommends
that the NCOP approves the report and the Bill without amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon Shaikh. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. But before we move on, with accordance to Rule 63, I shall now allow the political parties to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. No declarations?
The Bill that we are looking at is the First Order, Child Justice Amendment Bill.
Declaration of vote:
Mr S ZANDAMELA: Chairperson, the social development and assistance to the wellbeing of the children in this country is not enough. For instance, it has been reported that there is rapid escalation of a number of children headed household in the country. These children are then more vulnerable to be drawn into criminal activities, drug abuse and dropping out of school at an early age. Criminal capacity meets an appreciation of a wrongfulness of an act and reconciling oneself to that wrongfulness.
In the presence of all social illness facing the development of children in this country, can we, for certain, reconcile ourselves with a 12 year old having a criminal capacity? Why should be seek to
criminalise children for failure of the state to provide good enough foundation for the proper development of our children?
Children do not choose to be born in informal settlements where at times the only way out of poverty is through criminal activity. It is rather the government that sustains those conditions through promoting unequal distribution of wealth. We support the spirit of the Bill in raising the age of criminal capacity but we would have liked the Bill to have gone further than it has now. We therefore reject the Bill in its current format. Thank you Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There being no other declarations, can those in favour say yes, those against say no and those abstaining say, abstain? We shall now proceed to voting and this should be done electronically. Delegates will vote by pressing in favour, against and the abstain button. Are we ready hon members? [Interjections.] Voting will now ... [Interjections.] Yes Du Toit
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you Chair, its hon Du Toit. Could you just open the vote please?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That’s what I am going to do in the next few seconds. Please proceed and assist the member at the
back. Okay, hon member at the back, are you sorted out? I am told that one of the ways in which we can really proceed so that we avoid difficulties is, members who are experiencing problems must just raise their hands and they will be assisted. [Interjections.]
It does seem that we have a problem with the system. [Interjections.] If that is the case, then can we request the Whips to assist because we will do it manually? [Interjections.] We will look at this situation. I am sure it requires the [Inaudible.] attention.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Chairperson!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes. Do you want to comment?
Mr S F DU TOIT: Sorry Chairperson, it seems like everyone’s buttons are fixed, so ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are we ready? [Interjections.] Can the people who are ready please raise their hands so that I can see - people who are ready to vote electronically. Okay, please put your hands down. Can those people who are not ready – who have problems - raise their hands? [Interjections.] We seem to be ready.
Voting
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF INDEPENDENT POLICE INVESTIGATIVE DIRECTORATE AMENDMENT BILL
Ms S SHAIKH: Sorry, Chair, do you want me to reread the statement?
The CHAIPERSON OF THE NCOP: You can...
Ms S SHAIKH: Or can I say detail?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You can just indicate that you are tabling the [Inaudible.] that will be fine.
Ms S SHAIKH: Okay. Thanks Chair, I’ve already given the statement in the House. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much.
Can we find out if any political party wants to make a declaration? No.
Can we then move on to look at whether members would like to indicate how they will vote on the question broadly? Those in favour say Yes.
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Those against say No. Those who abstain say Abstain.
That being the case, we’ll move on to putting the question. The question before the House is whether ... my papers are bit mixed up here. Okay.
The question again is that the Bill be agreed to. We shall now proceed on voting on the question. Are we ready? Are we ready?
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
VOTING
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order, Chairperson. You might want to look into those. Is that when we voted two minutes ago there were 32 members voting on the previous Bill and this one is 37. I don’t know about my other colleagues but I did not see five people entering or leaving, I don’t want to make a debate but Chairperson, I think perhaps it’s just something for you to look into.
Mr S J MOHAI: Chairperson, hon Michalakis must not create an impression that he’s a custodian of the truth in this House. We are here, if you are outside the doors close, members cannot participate. So, cannot cast doubt here and create an impression he’s the only one that reads the rules of this House and undermine you, Chair.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS, WATER AND SANITATION AND HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chairperson, hon members, I am presenting a Report on the Fetakgomo Tubatse Local Municipality in Limpopo. On the 25th of June 2019, the MEC of Co-operative Governance and Human Settlements in Limpopo tabled to the NCOP a Notice of Intervention in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution in Fetakgomo Tubatse Local Municipality.
In compliance with Rule 101 of the NCOP, on the 5th of November 2019, the select committee considered this notice of intervention. The select committee observed that the Limpopo province failed to comply with the constitutional requirements of tabling the notice of intervention in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution.
The Constitution requires that the provincial executive council must notify the Minister, the NCOP and the provincial legislature within
14 days of its decision to invoke section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution. That within 28 days, the Minister must either approve or disapprove such a decision by the provincial executive council. That within 180 days, the NCOP must approve or disapprove such an intervention. In this case, the provincial government of Limpopo tabled a required notice after a period of 180 days lapsed.
The intervention to the municipality began on the 21st of December 2018 and the NCOP only received it from the MEC responsible for local government in Limpopo only on the 25th of June 2019.
Having considered the notice of intervention in terms of section 139 (1)(b) of the Constitution in Fetakgomo Tubatse Local Municipality, the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Water, Sanitation and Human Settlement, recommends to the House as follows.
That the NCOP notes that MEC of Limpopo Department of Co-operative Governance, Human Settlement and Traditional Affairs the tabled the notice of intervention after the period of 180 days has lapsed.
Accordingly, he did not comply with the constitutional and procedural requirements of tabling the notice of intervention in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution.
We recommend that the Limpopo MEC for Co-operative Governance, Human Settlement and Traditional Affairs should in collaboration with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, provide continuous support to the municipality in terms of section
154 of the Constitution and show demonstrable evidence of the quality of support and capacity before resorting to 139.
On the basis of that, we recommend that the House must not approve the intervention. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Question Put: That the Report be agreed to.
VOTING
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Report accordingly agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Chairperson, I had communicated with all the provincial Chief Whips earlier today, before the sitting, regarding the proposed amendment of the Order Paper and the Report that was supposed to be handled - apologies. I have received that the Report stand deferred. It is just a mistake that I didn’t start with an amendment of the agenda earlier.
Chairperson, my apology for that.
The Chief Whip of the Council announced that Order 4 on the Order Paper is deferred.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is an indication of information from the Chief Whip of the Council. This means that we have come to the end of our deliberations for today. That concludes the business of the day.
The Council adjourned at 15:11.
Audio
No related