Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 07 Nov 2019


No summary available.





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The Council met at 14:01.



The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please be seated. Order hon members! In accordance with Council Rule 247(1), there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions without Notice. However, I have been told that the political parties have agreed to have Member Statements being made after questions directed to the Deputy President have been completed. The Member Statements are going to be on the Springboks winning the 2019 Rugby World Cup.



Before we proceed to questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy President. [Applause.] As has been indicated, after the question session to the Deputy President, we will have Member Statements. However, it’s also quite important, hon



members, that when we direct questions to the Deputy President, we should note the following. The time for reply by the Deputy President to a question is five minutes; only four supplementary questions are allowed per question; a member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question; the time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes; and the time for reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. Whatever supplementary question is asked must emanate from the initial question.



The first question is Question 7 asked by hon A B Goyiya on the critical asset maintenance strategies, and is directed to the Deputy President. Yes, what’s the point of order?





Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndzi lava ku kombela leswaku loko Xandla xa Holobye va hlamula swivutiso va yima eka phodiyamu leswaku hi ta kota ku va vona kahle.





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, we’ll do it just now. [Interjections.] As indicated, the first question directed to the Deputy President is from hon Goyiya on critical asset maintenance



strategies. We now ask the Deputy President to proceed to the podium. [Applause.]



HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe!






Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order please: I don’t have a problem with the Deputy President or any other President or Minister standing at the podium. I just want you or any person sitting in the Chair to please look through the Minister or the Deputy President, or around him, to just recognise this part of the House for questions as well. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we always try to conduct this process in an orderly manner and in a way that ensures that everyone gets an opportunity to ask a question. However, there is a maximum of four supplementary questions, so please raise your hands as early as possible so that you are noted. However, you can’t raise your hand now before there’s been a response. [Interjections.] Yes, but as soon as possible. Thank you very much.






Question 7:


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Before answering the question, let me briefly take this opportunity to join the President and the country in congratulating the Springboks. [Applause.] We want to say to them, thank you for bringing the cup home; thank you for unifying us; thank you for lifting our spirits and showing all of us a sense of positivity that we so desire as we tackle all our challenges; and thank you for reminding us that we are still a rainbow nation.



Chair, indeed we acknowledge that our country is currently experiencing enormous energy challenges that have the potential to hinder prospects for new investment and economic growth. However, government has put in place key performance indicators and targets that are outlined in the shareholder compact to ensure that Eskom executes maintenance at its generation, transmission and distribution assets. The shareholder compact is signed by Eskom’s board and the Minister of Public Enterprises, and is revised on an annual basis.



The National Development Plan has identified the need for South Africa to invest in a strong network of economic infrastructure, designed to support the country’s medium and long-term economic and social objectives. Energy infrastructure is therefore a critical



component that underpins our economic activity and growth in our development trajectory. It is however concerning that Eskom’s fleet performance has since deteriorated due to the lack of maintenance refurbishment over the years, greatly compromising the security of electricity supply. This situation is also worsened by, among other things, coal shortages and the supply of substandard coal.



With regard to grid reliability, Eskom has a responsibility to conduct maintenance of its grid assets according to published standards that are benchmarked with international best practices. In the course of time there have been weaknesses in terms of adherence to published standards. However, as government we are working very hard to ensure that Eskom and the power utility reverts back to compliance with these published standards.



With an aging power station fleet, we need for planned midlife refurbishment to increase and meet the life expectations of these power plants. Critical areas that need work have been identified and are being funded and resourced to renew the power plants to a more reliable state. Unfortunately, all these shortfalls have resulted in rotational load shedding being implemented earlier this year and during the past three weeks of October.



With regard to the current generation capacity of the coal power stations, we advise that we are standing at the maximum available power of 36 221 megawatts. Under the leadership of the Minister of Public Enterprises, work is currently underway to ensure that interruptions in the performance of coal power stations are minimised to avoid disruptions and load shedding.



Accelerated economic growth, a rising population, and the expansion of human settlements and industrial development zones must be matched by targeted measures on the side of government to cater for energy security needs. Government remains committed to ensuring that Eskom is supported to address persistent sustainability challenges, including unsustainable levels of debt, underinvestment and the inadequate maintenance of plants, resulting in energy supply interruptions.



To this end, Eskom has developed a detailed turnaround plan to address its structural, operational and financial challenges. This entails a clear focus on improving efficiencies, reducing costs, optimising plant performance and enhancing government systems.



In spite of these difficulties ahead, we believe that policy reforms announced by the President in respect of positioning Eskom will put



Eskom on a sustainable recovery path. Government continues to provide the necessary support to Eskom to ensure that prospects of investment, economic growth and job creation are not negatively impacted.



Last week the Minister of Public Enterprises released a new road map on Eskom, outlining government’s plans for the future of Eskom. The road map for Eskom proposes a new business model which will provide reliable, affordable, economically competitive and environmentally sustainable electricity that will drive inclusive economic growth.

We therefore urge organised labour, business, energy experts and civil society at large to constructively engage the Minister on this proposed road map, to explore lasting solutions.



Alongside efforts to address Eskom’s challenges, Cabinet has since approved the Integrated Resource Plan which seeks to diversify our energy mix through the introduction of alternative sources of energy. While coal continues to play a significant role in electricity generation, new investment will need to be channelled to more efficient coal technologies, including the exploration of other sources of energy like nuclear, gas, wind, hydro and energy storage. In the medium to long term, we should be able to see a steady



improvement in the country’s ability to supply reliable energy that will support economic growth. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr A B GOYIYA: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and thanks to you, hon Deputy President, for a comprehensive response to the question.



However, there is one other thing that I need to check. In fact, it’s common cause that most of the challenges of Eskom that result in government taking decisions from time to time to bail out Eskom, are as a result of monies that are owed to Eskom by municipalities for the supply of electricity. These municipalities owe Eskom as a result of nonpayment. Government departments do not pay their bills on time. Big businesses also owe municipalities huge sums of money, making it difficult for them to pay.



Lastly, the challenge that our own people have relates to the challenge of the culture of nonpayment, which of course was as a result of the boycotts during the apartheid regime. So, people have not yet gone to that culture. Is there a plan by government to ensure that we encourage those that owe to pay so that we reduce the monies that are spent on funding and recapitalising Eskom?



Lastly, how do we deal with the challenges of cable theft and illegal connections?



Question 7: (Contd.)


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chair. On the side of the government I think we have encouraged all government departments and all institutions of government to pay for services consumed, especially to Eskom. There was a concerted effort on the side of Cabinet to ensure that each and every department that owes Eskom it is paying. The challenge remains with the municipalities which is the task before the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, together with the municipalities. Of course, in the main, municipalities have a challenge in terms of their metering. They are not billing citizens correctly. There is always a dispute on the amount that people are owing.



However, you are spot on to say that this culture of our people of nonpayment must be dealt with. We have on a number of occasions in different platforms conveyed this message that the time for resistance is over, we had to resist and fight apartheid but now it is time to turn on reconstruction. It is important for all of us to pay for services that we consume. On illegal connections, it is a responsibility of municipalities to ensure that people don’t temper



with their grid and distribution lines. In such a case, the municipality must be able to detect earlier where there is tempering and illegal connections. It is quite clear that municipalities don’t have the necessary capacity to detect illegal connections on time and deal with those.



Now, the district model in terms of service delivery that is led by the President – of which I am chairing the interministerial committee, IMC, – in the main we seek to support the municipalities to be able to collect money, to put down systems; systems of collections, billing systems and meters. We call upon our people and our law enforcement agencies to deal with those who are stealing the cables and those who are illegally connecting into the grid. The problems that Eskom is facing today are partly from us as citizens. Thank you.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you Chairperson. Deputy President, the biggest problem with Eskom is coal contracts which are expensive and which were signed by the apartheid government. The National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, says that Eskom must pay R300 per ton but Eskom through its corrupt leadership they go and pay R600 per ton, which is too expensive and costly. Do you agree with the



determination of Nersa that Eskom should go to its original determination of R300 per ton? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much for that question. Well, this is an agreement that exist between Eskom and the suppliers of coal. Whatever it has happened along the way, for them to agree on higher rates which are not sustainable, those rates are not sustainable. We took a meeting; the Minister of Public Enterprises and the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, and we decided that this contract must be renegotiated. Eskom can’t afford to go on and pay these kinds of rates.



A meeting took place with all the coal suppliers together with the two Ministers. The intention of that meeting was to renegotiate those contracts and also to put on the table the question of the quality of the coal that is being supplied. On the side of the quality of the coal we have inspectors now that are inspecting in all our power stations the quality of the coal that goes into our power stations. I am sure that the negotiations are still underway and there are positive signs that they will be lowered. The companies are prepared to lower down this cost of coal. However, obviously they are raising a lot of issues that involves labour, to



say, that if they reduce this cost they will have to layoff workers, which as government we say, no.



We are looking at an amicable way that will be to the best advantage of both Eskom and the coal suppliers. That matter has been attended to. I don’t think that is the only matter that has affected Eskom, yes, coal supply is one of the exorbitant costs of coal but secondly, the leadership in Eskom – we think we need to beef up the management of Eskom so that we get the required skills that can run this power utility. That has been also a major concern.



We are also not very happy in terms of the rising debt and how Eskom is managing its debt, it is not only the municipalities alone that have defaulted but it is also worrying that Eskom over the past 10 years has failed to manage its debt of which now the Minister of Finance is working closely with Eskom to ensure that the money that we give Eskom is correctly utilised. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr J J LONDT: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy President, regarding asset management the horror stories around Eskom and how it has been managed over several years has not yet fully been told. Before we can move forward, we need to know the full extent of what



we are dealing with. There have been reports that the asset registry in Eskom do not really reflect what they have, that there is stuff that’s on the books that is not even on any of the power plants.

Will the hon Deputy President consider a period for contractors, Eskom employees and whistleblowers to come forward to tell the full story? At the moment there are individuals that walk around fearing for their lives because they had to speak out towards these. So, would you consider putting forward such a period so that people can come forward without fear of retribution so that we can know what the full is and so that we can move forward?



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Well, there has been an attempt on the side of government to explore all avenues that will help us to come close to the truth, especially, on what we call state capture. We have instituted all these commissions to allow our people to come forward and say whatever they say they know, in terms of all these state-owned enterprises, SOEs, we can’t say Eskom alone. So, that platform has been created and we still call upon our people to come forward if they know whatever wrong that has been done.



I cannot say that Eskom is not fully aware of its own asset because it is a company that has been operating. On the basis of its asset



register Eskom went out to borrow money. Definitely, they should be aware of the assets they own because they borrowed money against the assets they have. Government came in as a guarantor that these funders that borrowed Eskom money, borrowed them on the basis of their strength of their assets. Assets which in the main are the power stations, the challenge that we see and that we noticed overtime is that these assets of power stations were not well maintained. There were moments when these power stations were pushed too hard because we wanted to avoid load shedding. So, they were pushed beyond their capacity.



Some of these assets are old. There are continuous disruptions and breakages. At times these breakages are not planned and they disrupt the entire power system. So, Eskom failed over time to do planned maintenance. If you do planned maintenance, you switch off a power station knowing the power that you have and you will still supply to your people but maintaining that power station, you know how much energy you are taking out of the grid and how much energy is left out of the grid. That is planned maintenance. However, over the past few years we have been hit by unplanned maintenance. All of a sudden a power station that has been running, for instance, I will take Hendrina Power Station that generates more or less above 3000 megawatts, if that power station can be interrupted we loose the



entire 3000 megawatts. That will definitely result into loads shedding because it was unexpected and unplanned.



I am sure Eskom is aware of its own assets but the problem with these assets is that they were not well kept and well maintained. Thank you.



Mr T B MATIBE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. We really appreciate the responses that we have been given by the Deputy President. Deputy President, the reason why every time you come here, Eskom question is one of the questions we are asking is because Eskom is very important for our country to fail. The other areas have been covered but the one that I think I would like the Deputy President to speak on is, the areas of partnerships with private sectors so that we are able to enhance the great reliability while at the same time we have a generation of electricity through an environmental friendly method of generation of electricity. Thank you very much ... [Inaudible.]



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. I am sure as government we are taking that very same approach to say that let us diversify. The pressure is just too much on Eskom. The failure of Eskom can make the entire country to fail. So, in the process, try and



diversify. We have then allowed independent power producers to come into the space. They are now generating and we will open more for these independent power generators to produce energy which will augment the capacity of Eskom. However the President proposed that we need to restructure Eskom.



I have visited China and I went to their State Grid. China has five generating companies. They are generating electricity, they are sub grid. China has two transmission companies and three distribution companies. I think in that way they have managed in a planned way avoided the risk that might happen in any economy and to ensure that there is continuous supply and sustainability of the supply of energy. As a country, the proposed way that we say we must take – that of restructuring Eskom - we will consider creating one or two companies that will still be involved in generation, we will still consider having two or three companies that will be involved in the transmission of electricity and companies that will be involved in distribution. In this case we are able to isolate and insulate problems. If one company has a problem, the others will be in the position to supply energy. It is unlike in this case, if this one company of ours has problems we all sneeze, we all catch flue. Thank you. [Applause.]



Question 8:


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, during the oral reply session in this House on the 11 September, we indicated that we will visit Emfuleni Local Municipality to assess progress on government’s efforts towards addressing the sewage spillage challenges that are impacting on the Vaal River system pollution. Indeed we took that visit on the 12 September as indicated. I was joined by the Minister of Human settlements, Water and Sanitation, the Deputy Minister, the Gauteng MEC and the mayors of Sedibeng and Emfuleni respectively as well as senior officials from the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and Gauteng province.



Whilst pollution challenges still remain, we were encouraged by the progress that the intervention of the SANDF has made in resolving the sewage spillage, the infrastructure network blockages, the sewage pollution flowing into the Vaal River. There has been significant progress, through the intervention of the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation. Progress has been made in upgrading waste treatment plant to respond to then growth of the human settlement areas around Emfuleni. Work is currently underway to expedite the commissioning of additional capacity resulting from upgraded infrastructure. In fact, the work that is happening at



Emfuleni is quite inspiring, but of course we must there has been a delay and lack of maintenance of the existing infrastructure.



We had several discussions with the Minister of Human settlements, Water and Sanitation regarding the situation at Emfuleni and the pollution of the Vaal River. In addition, the Presidency and the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs are currently having an ongoing engagement with the Office of the Premier in Gauteng and the municipalities so that we can increase our support to that situation.



Given the fact that the Vaal River system cuts through and benefits four provinces, it has been agreed that a collaborative intergovernmental approach is required to holistically respond to the pollution challenges across the entire Vaal River system. In this regard, the provinces of Gauteng, Free State, Mpumalanga and Northern Cape will be required to work together to implement coordinated intervention that will drastically reduce the pollution in the Vaal River.



Within a short while, we will be convening a meeting with the premiers of these affected provinces to ensure that we agree on an



implementation of an integrated plan that will respond comprehensively to the challenges of sewage spillage that continues to pollute the Vaal River. Despite progress made to date, it is evident that more urgent work still needs to be done to fully contain the Vaal River system pollution. In the main urgent intervention includes upgrading of ageing bulk sewer and reticulation infrastructure which contributes to the diversion of sewer into the river.



The team led by the Minister led by the Minister of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation has shared with us a comprehensive plan with clear sets of action and required resources. It has been indicated on our visit that R1,1 billion will be required to stop the pollution of the Vaal River. The Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation working with Gauteng Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, the SANDF, Ekurhuleni Water Care Company, Emfuleni Local Municipality and Rand Water have developed an intervention plan to stop the pollution into the Vaal River.



The intervention includes 44 pump stations and three waste water treatment plants namely, Sebokeng Leewkuil and Rietspruit. It also includes replacing and repairing gravity raising mains, leak



detection and addressing deficiencies in the network system. The Minister of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation has already Ekurhuleni Water Care Company to attend to the urgent task of unblocking the sewer reticulation system and fixing leakages to ensure that sewer flows into the Vaal River are completely eliminated.



To successfully deal with water pollution and negative environmental impact, we need to mobilise more and more resources to ensure that the Vaal River situation is completely resolved in the short, medium and the long term. The Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation has reprioritised in its own budget an amount of

R240 million in its Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant to support the SA National Defence Force in its work of improving the sewer treatment plant. The Gauteng Provincial Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs Department together with Emfuleni Local Municipality have reprioritised an amount of R90 million and

R20 million respectively in order to try and support the work done by the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation.



The Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation has further requested funding from the National Treasury for the shortfall of R750 million. To fast-track the human settlements



development programme and contribute towards economic development in the Emfuleni Local Municipality the capacity of the waste treatment plants in the area should be augmented. It is estimated that the cost of this project when it is fully completed will cost the country R6 billion and the proposal has been submitted to National Treasury to fund this programme.



As the Presidency we will continue to work closely with all the role-players and stakeholders to ensure that we resolve the sewer spillage challenges and restore the integrity of the Vaal River. Thank you very much.



Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chair, thank you Deputy President. The Emfuleni Local Municipality has given up. Thank you for your recent visit, it was much appreciated and you pledged the R1,1 billion which I think is necessary. When the NCOP Gauteng visited a few days later, the executive mayor advised us that they needed R6 billion in order to start and only when they got that R6 billion, it will take another year to fix the problem.



Hon Deputy President, the instruction from the erstwhile Water and Sanitation Minister Nkwinti to get the 44 pump stations running has been ignored. As you say that the SANDF has done a fantastic job at



the treatment works but they are under capacity. They cannot commission the treatment works until the pump stations move the raw sewage up to the treatment works in order to treat it.



The municipality is not spending any of their own money on the sewer network. I am not saying that national government must help them, they have given up. They cannot perform the most basic service delivery tasks due a lack of their own funds. The inability to procure diesel for their vehicles, to enable them to get to sites means that residents suffered recently for four days, with no electricity. Councillors are giving the municipality money for diesel out of their own pockets.



The water leaks are left unattended for three or four days at a time, even though the rest of Gauteng has been asked to save water in this time of water scarcity, because of a lack of capacity and diesel. As you mentioned that the sewage continues to flow into the river network and affecting the drinking water. The municipality has been placed on terms by Eskom and was placed under section 139 administration. All that they did was, they appointed the municipal manager as the administrator. So it was just business as usual.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, wrap it up.



Mr D R RYDER: You gave me seven minutes Chair, I am concluding. Thank you. It is business as usual Deputy President. His first act was to spend R3 million covering up his tracks. When will your government Deputy President get the municipality under full administration?



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, well it is one thing to place the municipality under full administration and it is another thing to attend to the problem that is before us. Our intention of visiting there was to try and garner all the support that we can so that all of us can focus to the problem at hand. I am sure, we are going to win.



The urgent task that we said they must report back in two months, we want all the pump stations to be revamped because the problem of the spillage in the township is because of these pumps that are not working. Beyond that, the money that they are requiring is going to made available but will not be made available at a go. We want to see progress. We will move together with the province, the municipality, the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs so that we derive value for the money that we are going to spend there.



We are going to open the new treatment plants that are there in order to augment, release and relieve the entire system. What is urgent is to unblock the blockages that are there so that sewer can flow and we avoid spillage that goes into the river. I do not think that we should be deterred. Let us be focused, so that we assist the situation there and try and deal with this problem that is affecting the river. The river is a source of life for a number of communities, so it is an urgent situation. Thank you very much.



Question 8 (Continues):


Mr S ZANDAMELA: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, the SA National Defence Force was deployed in Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality to come and assist in the problems of this municipality. The

R90 million allocated, that you had just informed the House about it, has been exhausted and they cannot continue now doing what they are supposed to do. Is it true that in the fourth administration there was an allocation of about R3 billion that was allocated to deal with the sewerage problems of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, hon member, I am not aware of the money that was allocated in the fourth administration to deal with that problem. The only thing that I am aware of is what is



happening now, in the fifth and the sixth administration where I got closer to the situation. When the defence force was deployed there, money was made available through the Department of Defence and Military Veterans itself. They did the work and they tried to unblock everything and it is better.



I think our soldiers did a very good job there to try and unblock the entire treatment plant that was at standstill. The treatment plant is not working in its full capacity. I can say it is now working more or less at 55%. The problem is that the entire system has blocked and is not bringing sewerage into the treatment plant. They have identified all the pump stations that must pump sewerage in the entire Emfuleni Local Municipality into the system and that has been identified as an urgent step.



In the process, instead of attending to the ageing infrastructure, the municipality was building a new treatment plant. In fact not one treatment plant but two plants adjacent to one another. They could not complete them but the entire system was failing. So, what is happening now is to try and unblock the old system and ensure that it is working because it has been now affecting the Vaal River. Now, beyond that we must open the two new treatment plants so that we can ease the pressure in the entire system. So, yes, I am not aware if



the money was given to this municipality before. I was not really impressed about the management of things in the municipality and I am sure the province will do its best to try and get the municipality to attend to its responsibility.



The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs together with the Department of Human Settlements and Water Sanitation will pull with the municipality to ensure that this project is finished on time. We are going to take another visit early next year to ensure that all the things we have agreed upon have been done. Consistently, we are going to give this House feedback on progress because it is important. The pollution of that river affects the entire the Gauteng, Mpumalanga, Free State and a lot of people. It is a problem that we must attend. [Applause.]



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Hon Chairperson, good afternoon Deputy President, it would appears that the accountability for local government failures just does not exist in the dictionary of our ruling party. Civic organisations like, Save the Environment have on numerous occasions tried to enforce the law by going to court. One of these court cases ensured that the previous Municipal Manager Mr Sam Tshabalala had six warrants against his name and nothing happened.



Mr Deputy President, his transgression was that he did not ensure that the sewerage flowed into the Vaal River. You have now spoken about the pump stations that are working and you have cleaned this and that. If we do not hold officials to account we cannot expect the Vaal River to be cleaned up. What I would like to know from you is when will Mr Sam Tshabalala be arrested and when will the current municipal manager be held accountable for the failures that are currently taking place? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, in terms of the arrest of the municipal manager whoever is there, can you and me allow that to be done by the right institutions that are capable of doing that. I am not sure about the warrant of arrest and what the charge is and all that. So, leave it to them. Your problem, which I understand, the province of Gauteng must attend to the leadership problem in that space. They must attend to it.



Of course what I have noticed at Emfuleni Local Municipality is that also residents there are to be blamed. The municipality cannot have all the money to fix this and that if people are not paying for water and electricity. A municipality is a business; I can only sell you services and you must pay for these services so that I can maintain and continue to provide you services. So, this is a problem



that we were talking about in the first question to say our people must learn to pay for services. If you get water in your house you must know that you must pay for this water and the same as with electricity. This enables whoever is responsible to bring these services can maintain the infrastructure and can continue to supply you with those services. These are some of the weaknesses but that is not to condone the leadership failures. It was supposed to be upon this leadership to ensure that people pay and if people are not paying you have got a right to switch off the services. There is no other way. There is no way where we can get free money to come and fix this infrastructure if people are not paying. That must happen.



With regard to criminal offences and what not, let us allow the police and our justice system to take care of that. [Applause.]



Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President you have already said in your response but the former Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, hon Obed Bapela also indicated that if the sewerage system in the Vaal River is left unattended it has a potential of contaminating drinking water to over four provinces which you have mentioned. I would like to know whether the problem has been contained and what long-term plans have been put in place to ensure that we do not experience this challenge again? What



other long-term plans have been put in place so that this challenge affects not water quality but also the environment? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, since my visit there, I can account for what I have seen on the ground and the briefing that I had and the workings of the treatment plants that I have seen. The bigger treatment plant that is there is now working because of the efforts of the SA National Defence Force to unblock it. It is working at a rate of more or else 55-60%. Remember this treatment plant is receiving the sewerage in the entire Emfuleni Local Municipality.

Now, if they say it is working up to 60% and there are still blockages that mean the problem has not been resolved 100%. There are still some spillages along the way that cannot reach the treatment plant. So, that is the work that must be done urgently to try and replace the pump stations so that sewerage can reach the treatment plant. We must commend the intervention by the SA National Defence Force on the work that they have done. It has to a large extent, eased the burden from the community and from the people in and around the Emfuleni Local Municipality. Of course the intervention led by the Human Settlements and Water Sanitation, Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the province, I am confident standing here that it will yield good results. Going



forward, it is the municipality’s responsibility to maintain whatever will be left behind. Thank you very much.



Question 9:


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, we can confirm that indeed we are prioritising certain provinces in terms of stimulating and supporting rural and township economies, especially those that are mostly rural and underserviced.



As we indicated recently in this very House, our objective as this administration is to transform our townships and villages from their current state of labour and consumption reserves into thriving, productive investment hubs.



As government, we are prioritising a spatial approach and bringing a greater subnational focus to our development strategy through the district-based model. This is not only about provincial convergence but also about the relationship between rural and urban spaces, between the poor and the rich municipalities, and between townships and villages to achieve a truly integrated form of development that fosters economic inclusion and job-creation.



At the core of our efforts to revitalise the rural and township economies is creating linkages with national interventions that inform our industrial strategy. The focus is on the expansion of manufacturing, mining, agriculture, and the automotive and other sectors.



As indicated before, an important pillar of this industrial strategy is to develop new economic centres through our spatial economic zones, revitalise industrial sites and develop business and digital hubs. For example, we currently have 10 spatial economic zones that are located and spread across various provinces in our country.

These are also based on the comparative advantages of each province and location. Our government efforts in supporting the citrus industry are targeted at the Eastern Cape, Limpopo and the Western Cape, while agroprocessing can support the Free State and Mpumalanga.



The promotion of the beneficiation of our minerals will support mining in the Northern Cape and the North West, as well as expand industrial activities in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal. More importantly, a focus on the beneficiation of raw materials and products will diversify the composition of South Africa’s exports to global markets.



The provinces of Gauteng, the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal have the automotive sector, which will support existing and new township and rural businesses in the automotive sector to enter global value chains through the manufacturing of car components. The other intervention by our government is the establishment of additional incubators through the Small Enterprise Development Agency in the provinces of the Free State, Mpumalanga, Limpopo, the Northern Cape and the North West.



Therefore, in co-ordinating all these efforts our primary objective is to build on the existing national efforts that are already under way, expand access and ensure that the development models we introduce assist us in achieving economic inclusion. As government, we endeavour to utilise public-sector procurement in order to leverage the development and growth of rural and township enterprises. On a daily basis, government procures a huge volume of goods and services for consumption in public facilities.



The Office of the Deputy President has already convened technical- level consultations with all provinces to present interventions that are currently being implemented in various provinces. Provinces are already implementing workable models that need upscaling and consolidation to achieve a maximum impact across the country. The



emerging picture is that these empowerment models can best support agricultural production and the local manufacturing of construction material for infrastructure and the built environment projects.

These interventions are best placed to support the development of rural and township economies, given their pervasive nature across the country.



As government we have a responsibility to provide the necessary infrastructure, financial and mentorship support to township and rural enterprises. We believe that government has the relevant policies and relevant strategies in place in that ours is to fast- track this work towards efficient and sustainable delivery in the right quality for all South Africans. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me thank the Deputy President for the response to the question tabled. What I would like to know from the Deputy President is the following. In line with the support that you have referred to for rural communities and township communities, what progress are we making - with greater speed – in distributing land to our people, especially for agriculture and for creating a business centre for small, medium



and micro enterprises, SMMEs, in rural areas and townships? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, in the near future we will be announcing the parcels of land that will be redistributed to our people, especially new entrants, your people and women. We are currently working on the redistribution policy, the criteria that will be used to identify these young people and to identify women that will benefit from this land redistribution.



The intention of distributing this land is to expand the scope and scale of our production capacity as a country. We are allowing new entrants into the agricultural sector so that we can produce more food for our own domestic consumption and for export purposes. In this area, this sector of our work, we are expecting more and more small and medium enterprises that will be supported by government.



We are also tabling a new support model that will work and be shaped around the district model on how best we are going to support farmers – small-, medium-sized and commercial farmers – located in a district in order to produce. This support model should have all the support mechanisms that government can use to support small farmers, like your crops, your mechanisation. Everything we can do to support



small farmers will be found in the support hub which is located at a district level.



In this way, we want to make use of every space in our land, to cultivate the land, to produce more food, to fight hunger and to export this food. But, in the main, we are also encouraging provinces to support these SMMEs by availing their procurement processes, by availing their buying power as provinces as a market to support these small and medium enterprises - offer them a market for their produce. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you, Chair, and my appreciation, Deputy President, for correctly characterising the township economy. The question that I want to pose, Deputy President, is as follows: Has the government also considered reviewing the framework on local economic development, particularly given the fact that the township and rural economies, by their nature, are survivalist and also characterised by low-income households? You have also indicated that technical support will be put in place to drive the district model.



Would the Deputy President also consider putting in place the political infrastructure in the form of political champions to drive this technical support? This is given the fact that at a technical



level we would expect the director-general in the Deputy President’s office – or the directors-general in the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs’ office, particularly Ministers - to champion these township and rural economies.



In addition, let me also take this opportunity to express gratitude on behalf of the eight senior traditional leaders in John Talao Gaetsewe in Kuruman, Northern Cape, where you were able to provide them with an intervention particularly to boost farming interventions, but also the people of Seoding that you were able to

... [Inaudible.] Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, as government we are insisting on prioritising SMMEs. This importance that we attach to SMMEs can be traced back, can be seen, in our efforts of placing SMME development right at the centre. We even moved further to create the Department of Small Business Development. The Minister of Small Business Development remains the champion. She must champion the development of small businesses. Our understanding is that there cannot be any economy that will drive any big economy. A growing economy has its basis, has its foundation, in small- and medium-sized enterprises.

These small enterprises that hire 10, 15, 20 people form a very strong foundation of a thriving economy.



Our attitude of opening up spatial economic zones is to try and take infrastructure into these townships. Our efforts in revitalising the industrial parks are trying to bring infrastructure and services to those forbidden townships and villages where there is poverty. We want to encourage our SMMEs to stay in their rural areas, to stay in their villages, and we will bring the infrastructure that will support them to do business.



You would be aware that in a number of villages and townships there are already these big malls, retail businesses, that have, in a way, undermined these general dealers that were there that we know in the past used to thrive in our townships and our villages. The advent of these big chain stores and malls tended to affect those small general dealers and whatnot.



Our intention is to try and open up and deal with competition models so that these small and medium-sized enterprises – whatever they are producing – should be tested in terms of quality. If they are of a good standard, government must present a platform for them to buy these products. These products can also be sold in those big retail stores.



It is, though, for government to ensure that we intervene. There is no reason why a small farmer who is farming there can’t bring his or her produce into these malls. These malls are taking produce from elsewhere and not supporting the farmers close by. There is no reason why a small farmer can’t be supported by a department of education that is feeding children. There is no reason why a small farmer cannot be supported by the Department of Correctional Services that is feeding your prisoners ... by the Department of Health that is feeding patients in hospitals. This just needs the intervention of government to ensure that these small enterprises are supported and mentored so that we reduce the rate of their failing.



Some start their businesses and fail. Part of the problem is that these small enterprises - as much as they strive very hard to enter into business and provide services - are not paid on time. Some of the culprits that are not paying these SMMEs on time are our municipalities, our provincial governments and our national government. And that is going to come to an end. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, Chair.





Xandla xa Presidente, varimi lavatsongo na vamaki lavatsongo va humesa swimakiwa kambe a va nyikiwi nkarhi wo xavisa swilo swa vona eka timolo letikulu. Tanihi mfumo xana hi tihi tindlela leti mi ti endlaka ku hatlisisa leswaku van’wamabimdzu lavatsongo va kota ku xavisa eka timolo letikulu?





The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: First of all, we must make it a point that these small farmers – these SMMEs – are supported financially and are supported in terms of the relevant skills. If you are in farming, you must know how best to farm so that your produce is of a good quality. It’s not like you are just fighting to sell the produce, but that it is of good quality. You are not imposing yourself; you are selling something that is of good quality.



So, government’s intervention is to ensure that the production that is happening in those townships and villages is of good quality and supported financially. However, the next step is to ensure that we break this monopoly of the chain stores. We need to ensure that our small and medium-sized enterprises are also given a platform to sell their produce. As government, we must lead by example, because, on a daily basis, we procure goods and services. So why aren’t we



offering these SMMEs the platform? We are also bad payers: we buy from SMMEs and take 90 days to pay. This person is employing five or

10 people. If you don’t pay this person for 90 days, you are killing his or her business.



So, as much as we are working hard, that the President is working hard to attract foreign investment, that we are working hard as government to support SMMEs, the attitude of government must change

– pay services on time. [Applause.]



Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy President, thank you for the answer that you gave. There is, however, a concern that we hear about projects and interventions year after year, but the majority of them don’t always make the impact that we would have hoped that they would make. Quite often it feels like we are throwing good money after these projects and not necessarily getting out what we should.



Isn’t it time that we start rolling out such programmes and interventions in conjunction with stakeholders that have a proven track record of delivering? I am going to use one such example and it is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but the Western Cape doesn’t just consist of the City of Cape Town. There are rural municipalities in this province as well.



One of those municipalities is called Mossel Bay. That municipality has worked extremely well with a very limited budget to stimulate and support their rural communities in places like Brandwag, Ruiterbos and Friemersheim. With the little funds that they have they have achieved tremendous success. Just last year they were rewarded as one of the best-run municipalities in South Africa by Good Governance Africa. Just imagine what those municipalities can do with financial backing and support by the national government to successfully establish best practices and then roll those out to other municipalities. Isn’t it time that we start rewarding good behaviour of municipalities with a proven track record, and not just keep on chasing those that have scandal upon scandal upon scandal and which don’t deliver what we expect?



So would you be filling to take hands with municipalities like Mossel Bay and give them financial backing on the basis of their good track records of good governance and then establish best practices that we can roll out to the rest of the country?



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, thank you very much. We would like to visit this municipality of Mossel Bay so that we can learn the good things that they doing. It’s always important to learn from those people who are excelling at what they do, but the difference is that



those who are failing should not be abandoned. We are not going to abandon those that are failing. We are going to assist them until they succeed. We are going to learn from those that are doing well and we are going to replicate those good models, because this is just a question of party politics in our case. I don’t think South Africans really entertain our party-political differences. South Africans want progress.



Now, as you can see and hear outside here, South Africans are happy about the achievement of the Springboks. They are not worried about our party-political differences. They are happy about an achievement. [Applause.]



So, as much as we do our work, let’s see what is working, let’s replicate what is working, and let’s try and attend to what is not working and correct it. I’m open to visiting that municipality. It is my responsibility; it’s government. So, I can’t say, “No, I can’t visit this municipality because it’s run by the DA.” No. I am going to visit that municipality, learn what I can learn, replicate good practices and assist those that are not doing very well. This is because if you assist those municipalities, you are assisting the population and the communities around those municipalities around those municipalities. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Question 10:


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, our primary role in leading government business in Parliament involves the following key responsibilities

:Monitoring the affairs of the National Executive in Parliament, ensuring programming of parliamentary business initiated by the National Executive within the time allocated for that purpose, ensuring that cabinet members attend their parliamentary responsibility, performing any other function provided for by the joint rules or a resolution of the National Assembly or NCOP or resolutions adopted in both Houses. In this regard we constantly remind members of the executive to prioritise their parliamentary responsibilities, including responding to parliamentary questions timeously, both oral and written. Furthermore as leader of government business in Parliament, we are required to present in every cabinet meeting a status report of all outstanding written replies in both Houses of Parliament and the roster of attendance of all ministers and deputy ministers.



According to the latest, leader of government business report that was presented to cabinet on 30 October 2019. The Minister of Public Enterprises was asked a total of five written questions from the NCOP and all of them have since been responded to. We have also been advised that in the Fifth Parliament, Fifth administration, the



Minister received a total of 54 questions from the EFF of which out of the 54, 53 were answered and only one question remained unanswered or it lapsed. It is against this backdrop that we equally encouraged all members of Executive to fulfil their obligation as imposed upon them by the constitution and the joint rules of Parliament by not only responding to parliamentary questions but through participation in all legislative processes and appearing before relevant committees to give effect to their accountability role. Thank you very much.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, Deputy President law makers of the EFF wrote letters to Minister Gordhan. The first letter was to ask about his relationship with Werkmans Attorneys, the same letter was to ask about why he didn’t disclose his UK trip, paid by Werkmans Attorneys. The third letter was to ask why his interference in the appointment of Mango Chief Executive Officer, CEO, Nico Buizendenhout who does not even have the entry level matric. The fourth letter was to ask about the appointment of the incompetent Eskom Chair, Jabu Mabuza. Now, Minister Gordhan keeps on ignoring law makers of the EFF, he acts as if he is above the law, he acts as if he is above Parliament itself. Now to you this type of conduct, doesn’t this amount to a constitutional delinquent?



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure, the relationship that we have here in Parliament, members of Parliament and the Executive, there is a defined relationship that is governed by our rules, governed by the law of our country, the Constitution. Today, I am standing in front of you not because I want to; it’s because of the rules that govern these Houses. [Appluase.] I can not come here as I wish, it’s compulsory for me to stand in front of you and to respond to your question, I am not making you a favour it’s a responsibility that I must fulfil, so I will encourage that we stay within the confines of the law, I can’t say anything if you a written private letters to each other. [Appluase.] You see, I am compelled to answer your question, because your question has been processed the right way through this House and the question has come me and I am answering it, I don’t have a choice. [Appluase.] If write to one another outside realm of this House, how will I know? How will I know? I can go and ask the Minister and say the hon members of EFF in the NCOP have written to you and the Minister might say “No, they have not; I have not received the letter”. So the best way to ensure that any communication from yourself gets to the members of Executive is through your systems in the House. Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point are you rising on, hon member?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, what is the point of order?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Law makers, both in Parliament and the NCOP have got no reason at all to write private letters to ministers. We wrote official letters and we have got proof...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ...but what is your point of order?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... as a Deputy President, we are asking, does that type of attitude not amounting to constitutional delinquency? You did not answer the question.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. That’s not a point order, hon Nyambi.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chair, thanks Deputy President for your detailed response. We view this arrangement that we are in today as an important session for oversight, but one thing for sure we can’t turn question session to Deputy President to a complain platform for members of Parliament, who should be well aware of processes that should be followed when raising conduct



about executive members. My question to you Deputy President is; has there been any formal complain raised with you as leader of government business or Deputy President by any member of Parliament or political party or even through leadership of Parliament, particularly presiding officers about the alleged persistent ignorance of correspondences and questions by the Minister of Public Enterprises? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, thanks hon member, I am not aware of any written request that came to my office to say there is this problem. I am not aware, the position of a leader of government business it’s a very important position, so that if there are problem between the executive, Parliament and the NCOP that position remains a conduit to resolve these problems. So we must use it, because the intention is to get the Minister concern to respond. The intention is not just to make a statement; we want the response, so we are here. You can formally write to the office of the leader of government business and raised that concern, but from time to time I am working with these institutions, the NCOP, I am working with the National Assembly, I am following all questions for written reply, all questions for oral reply, I am looking at all of them. I know which minister has not answered this question and that question and I follow up on your behalf, that’s what I do. [Appluase.] To say



minister, you have not responded to this question, it’s now almost


12 days, what is the problem, respond to this question, why are you not responding, why are not giving a written reply? So, that’s my role, probably next time let’s formalise the complaining system. Thank you.





Nk W NGWENYA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, Mhlonishwa Sekela Mongameli uma ngempela ziyiqiniso lezi zinto zokuthi oNgqongqoshe bayaqhubeka nokushaya indiva imibuzo evela kumalungu, lolu daba olubucayi loMthethosisekelo esingeke siluthathe kalula. Ngakho ke kubalulekile ukuthi le Ndlu nabantu baseNingizimu Afrika bahlomule ngokuthi bazi izinto ezimbili njengoba ubusuchazile. Manje umbuzo wami Sekela Mongameli uthi: Ngabe uSekela Mongameli usetsheliwe ngenqubo emisiwe yemibuzo? Ingabe le mibuzo yathunyelwa ngendlela ehambisana nenqubo yokuthunyelwa nokuphendulwa kwemibuzo ngendlela ehambisana nemithetho esunguliwe kule Ndlu? Ingabe le mibuzo iyavela uma ibekwa ephepheni lemibuzo? Kuyisiphakamiso ke sami ukuthi uma uSekela Mongameli engenayo le mibuzo, sikuhlehlise ukuphendulwa kwayo bese sibuya sithola impendulo kungekudala.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will give the opportunity to the Deputy President to make his comment, of course the questions are



somewhat similar, but there maybe an angle or two that makes them slightly different.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very to the question and the comment. The procedure that you are using as this House, to channel questions to Ministers, all of us, to the President and to the Deputy President is the procedure that we are all acquainted to. I am not aware of any other procedure and it would be very difficult for me to find out, if anything can happen outside these known procedures. I said I am responding to these questions because they came from yourself through your processes and finally they reached my office. I took the trouble to sit down and respond to these questions, I was not there when you were asking these questions, but the questions finally arrived at my desk, through the processes that we set in place ourselves. That is why I am here today to respond.

So I can only account as a leader of government for all the questions that were put in system, either for written responses or for oral responses, but I am not going to just dismiss the hon members. Beyond this I want all copies of these letters that were written so that we can assist them. Thank you.



Mr M S SHACKLETON: Chair, I am visiting today from the Gauteng Provincial Legislature. [Applause.] My name is Micheal Shackleton as



introduced by the Chair, thank you. Hon Deputy President, the problem of unanswered...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ...order hon members, hon Micheal Shackleton is speaking in this House for the first time, so let’s give him space to raise the question.



Mr M S SHACKLETON: Yes, thank very much Chair for your protection. Hon Deputy President the problem of unanswered written questions does not just lie with the Minister of Public Enterprises; most of the Cabinet Ministers are equally guilty of failure to reply to DA, NCOP written questions. A total of between 70 to 80 written questions have been left unanswered by various ministers. The top offenders include the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs with nine, the Minister of Police with eight and Minister of Telecommunication and Postal Services with five. As the leader of government business what will you do to compel ministers to abide by the obligation of being accountable to Parliament and thus answer their written questions? Thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Like I said every time in Cabinet, we present a report that takes into account all the questions that are submitted by members in both Houses and we check with the offices of



the different ministers, whether they have responded and we are aware even on the number of questions that remained unanswered, we are aware of the number of questions that were answered, so we start to have a problem with the minister if the number of questions that remain unanswered goes beyond 10. Ten is an acceptable number, they can work on it but we also put the timeline, to say these questions can not go beyond this timeline, they must be answered to. We don’t accept the all minister’s...as I speak no one has got more than 20 questions outstanding. All of them rove around some two or three, around 12 but the rest it’s three, and four, five they are all within the acceptable limit. When they go overboard, then I step in and demand that these questions must be answered. So, there is no extraordinary situation, we all fine. This question I think it arises because the letters and the questions that we talk about have not fallowed the normal parliamentary procedure. It was a communication between minister and the members but not through the process of Parliament. Thank you



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOPL: What’s the point of order?



Mr M NHANHA: Chair, I want to bring to the attention of the Deputy President that he must not be surprised whilst members are hackling Mike a non-permanent delegate, we are not used to it. Most non-



permanent delegates come and warm these benches and leave afterwards. Thanks Mike for coming to...[Applause.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, we will proceed to


...yes, is that a point of order hon Nyambi?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chair, I never wanted to disturb the Deputy President, but it’s a point of order, in relation to a previous speaker. Coming to the House making statement that is misleading the House, on Tuesday this week here in the House, when we were dealing with the economic cluster, we happen to have three departments, three ministers and as a NCOP we have a rule that punishes those who are not responding to questions and he mentioning ministers who were here to account, deliberately misleading the House, so I am making a point of that make a ruling that probably in the next sitting about that statement made by that hon member, because he is deliberately misleading this House.[Applause.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, let’s not have a dialogue in the House, we will look at the stats and the details and at the next meeting make a ruling a on the matter, but for now let’s leave the situation as is. Thank you very much.



Question 11:


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, Chapter 2 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, provides for the Bill of Rights that sets out the fundamental rights of all South Africans, including the right to dignity and the right to equality. This Bill of Rights is a cornerstone of our democracy and individual rights. It enshrines that the rights of all people in our country and affirms the democratic values of human dignity, equality and freedom. Furthermore, section 9 (3) of the Bill of Rights refers to equality and provides as follows:



The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.



Not withstanding our constitutional provision. The hon member should note that our laws should not be in violation of international law that we are signatories to. Under international law, the sovereignty of the state and the right to exercise their independence including their own laws without the interference of other states it guaranteed. In this regard, our government upholds the international



principle of non interference in the internal affairs of other states. South Africa only intervenes in situation where parties in conflict officially, request our assistance or intervention.



Similarly, South Africa respects the sovereignty of the republic of Uganda and any other nation. In cases where our positions, our values and approaches are in conflict with those of other countries, South Africa is of the view that such matters are best resolved at multilateral forums as provided for by our international conventions. In light with our constitutional provision, we condemn any form of Human Rights violation and abuses, especially when it’s perpetrated by any state, including those directed to lesbians, gays and transgender persons, otherwise known as LGBTIQ+.



As government, we have adopted a comprehensive rights approach to same sex or LGBTIQ+ related rights. In this regard, in March 2011, the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development mandated the establishment of a national task team to develop a national intervention strategy that will address corrective rape. The department initiated a process of engaging key government departments and under institutions to develop the national task team to monitor pending cases relating to gender and sexual orientation based crimes in the criminal justice system.



We want to echo the President’s call when he said: the violation of the rights and equal worth of lesbians, gays, bisexual, transgender or intersex people, demeans our common humanity as South Africans. Not only does it expose individuals, but it also exposes individuals to suffering and even violence. But it often limits access to social services and economic opportunities for LGBTIQ+ people in our country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy President, South Africa is a beacon in Africa for the protection of the rights of LGBTIQ+ community. You have quoted from the Bill of Rights, which is the backlog of the rights that we are talking about. But what you have not touched on is the recent judgement of the Constitutional Court that says whilst we respect the sovereignty of our neighbours, we must always strive to ensure that our relations with our neighbours are guided by relations with a just equal, peaceful, human rights orientated and contribute to the democratic order.



Now Deputy President, 34 countries in Africa has anti-gay legislation in their books. The irony is the majority of this legislation is actually colonial error legislation, it is not African, and it’s the European legislation. That is the legislation, that’s the irony. In places like Sudan, Somalia, Somali land,



Moratoria, Northern Nigerian, homosexuality is punishable by death. Uganda wants to make homosexuality punishable by death. In places like Kenya, there was recently an attempt to appeal anti-gay legislation. The Kenyan High Court turned it down and it’s not only the gay community being targeted. Heterosexual allies like myself, I am an ally of the community, if I lived in Nigeria, I can go to jail for 10 years for assisting a homosexual friend.



So my question to you, surely as the man tasked with assisting the President in the running of this country, I am asking you here and now to take a principle stand and with pride. Take a stand and condemn the actions of African legislators across Africa involved in the Human Rights abuse. I ask you to do that, hon Deputy President. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is not easy as the way you say it. My position and your position, more or less similar, and I have said we are called upon by our Constitution to respect the sovereignty of any state. And we must mind what we say about other people. There are agreed platform, multilateral platform like AU, SADC, all those are platforms where these matters can be discussed. But you can’t put yourself to be morally above others. You can’t put your belief to be the belief of the rest of the world. The way we believe in



things as South Africans, we must not impose our beliefs to anyone. But we will seek to negotiate. We will seek to persuade people to see things the way that we see them and we are going to use the platforms that are provided. So let us not be arrogant and think that we are the best out of this world. We are going to use these given platforms to raise our case and to raise our matters. The AU has all these platforms, especially the African Commission on Human Rights which is a body of the AU. That is the best platform and I am sure with time, this matter is going to be on the agenda of the AU and our leaders will discuss it and find common consensus. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much hon President for your response. Both Uganda and South Africa are sovereign states as you pointed out and they are both bound by the constitutive act of the African Union and they are both members of the African Union and the expectation is that, both countries must respect the protocols of the AU, that is the common cause. Is there anything that binds us as a country to interfere in the internal affairs of another country, irrespective of where we stand as a country? And I think you answered that question quite well. But is there anything that binds us to interfere in the internal affairs of Uganda, as some members expect us to do? Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, as we stand here we are a country that is responsible for its own affairs. But as a country, we are part and puzzle of countries of the world. We associate and we have joint certain multilateral forums where we co-operate and we see things the same way. We persuade one another. And you would realise that in some of these multilateral forums, it is not always hunky-dory, where everything is nice. There are moments were there is tension amongst these countries on the issues that are on the table.



So, I am saying, don’t seek to impose what you believe is right in your country and you impose it on others. That is wrong but there are mechanisms that are put in place that you can use to persuade one another because our beliefs and our religions are not the same. Now, we come from different backgrounds, therefore as a country we are a sovereign country, guided by our own Constitution that we have adopted.



But if a country goes and puts a law and the law in terms of their Constitution is acceptable, that is it. But this question that you are talking about, just for your interest sake, the Constitutional Court of Uganda is nullified the act. Now it has nullified the act and the Ugandan government has announced its intention to



reintroduce the Act. That was already signed by the President into an Act but it did not meet the constitutional standard.



There were issues that were raised in that Act so the Constitutional Court nullified it. Now the Act is back in the National Assembly of Uganda and the intention of government is to reintroduce the Act. So we are talking about a matter that is still on the table of the people of Uganda. They are discussing it and I am sure we must be decent enough to keep our mouth shut. [Laughter.] [Applause.]



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, Deputy President, what is happening in Uganda is bad, it’s sickening and repulsive. It should not happen in Uganda. It should not happen in Nigeria. It should not even happen anywhere in the world. How people sleep with one another, where they sleep with each other, should never concern any of us. Now, the silence of South Africa is questionable. We ask ourselves if this is driven by fear or cowardice. Deputy President, as a member state of the African Union, at this stage, shouldn’t you have already written a strong condemnation statement relating to the disgust actions of the Ugandan government? Thank you.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Malibongwe igama ... [Inaudible.] [Laughter.] [Interjections.]






The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am going to restate what I said. We will always respect the sovereignty of the Ugandan people and their government. And, we will only seek to persuade one another in the platforms that are provided for when we find that opportunity. But, in terms of the survey that has been made, in 33 African countries which exhibited intolerance towards homosexuals in 2014 and 2015, it stood at 78%.



Now it is a belief system of people and you might say they are backwards and I am a bit forward, I can understand, I can tolerate this and that. But as we stand, that survey, out of 55 African countries, 78% are showing intolerance. That means they can’t tolerate it. It means it is in their belief system. So, it is a matter of persuading them and says; this is how we think as South Africans. And, we think it safeguards the Human Rights of every person, it protects every person; it protects the freedom of every person. But you can’t impose yourself. No! Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr M S SHACKLETON: Chair, I am back and I am here and I have from our member Nhanha. [Interjections.] Deputy President, something



bothered me about your response to one of the questions on the same issue where you mentioned, essentially, and I am paraphrasing here that regarding Human Rights abuses that we would respect the sovereignty of state totally.



So, as to not condemn and state and not to go into any state, the natural consequence, if you go to the end of that, which would mean that any nation in Africa could do anything. They could even murder their population as government. But we will only intervene if that government calls upon us to do so. Which then would create a violation ethically, in terms of who we are as South Africans and our members of the consecutive active African Union as well?



I don’t think merely condemning an unethical act amounts to violate to sovereignty. So essentially Deputy President, what I am asking is taking into account what I have said and taking into account matters such as the Al-Bashir case in the past. Is this national government committed to solving Human Rights abuses and is this national government truly devoted to Human Rights? Thank you Deputy President.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I must assure South Africans that as this government. Now it is a belief system of people and you might



say they are backwards and I am a bit forward, I can understand, I can tolerate this and that. But as we stand, that survey, out of 55 African countries, 78% are showing intolerance. That means they can’t tolerate it. It means it is in their belief system. So, it is a matter of persuading them and says; this is how we think as South Africans. And, we think it safeguards the Human Rights of every person, it protects every person; it protects the freedom of every person. But you can’t impose yourself. No! Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Question 12:


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the question being raised by hon Mohai it’s very important when we have to consider the impact of climate change especially on food production and agricultural sector as a whole. Recently, we have experienced drought in provinces like the Free State, Northern Cape and the Eastern Cape, and partly, it’s because of climate change.



For example, if considering areas such as Namaqua District in the Northern Cape and Gariep District, the situation for farmers and communities depended on crop and livestock farming, has been very challenging. The Intergovernmental Panel ... [Interjections.] Is there anything that I can try?



Mr T S C DODOVU: Please behave.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, of course we know that there’s a limit. There are only four supplementary questions allowed and there is waving of papers and so on, just creating an additional drama that can be avoided. So, please bear with those of us who are Presiding Officers. There’s no space for other supplementary questions as only four of them are allowed. Deputy President, can you please proceed?



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That was very unkind. Well, what can you do? When you are in Rome, you must do what the Romans do. [Laughter.] The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has identified South Africa as a hotspot for climate change. For our part as South Africa we have undertaken risk and vulnerability assessment in all our provinces through the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries, and we continue to support the development of provincial adaptation plans.



Critically, in dealing with the behavioural change in the management of scarce resources that are impacted by climate change, our government continues to prioritise educating our communities and industry players on the effects of climate change, the risks, the



mitigation and adaption strategies. Given our commitments under the Paris Agreement on Climate Change, we continue to endeavour to reduce the dependency of our energy from fossil fuel sources to cleaner ones including renewable energies.



To this end, Cabinet has recently approved the Integrated Resource Plan 2019 as part of government commitment to reduce reliance on coal as a source of energy to less than 20% by 2050. South Africa is also a water-scarce country and we should therefore look into technologies that improve precision irrigation for our agricultural sector. The SA Weather Services, in partnership with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries, has initiated the development of the National Framework for Climate Change Services.



This is aimed at providing updates on climate and weather information to guide decision making. One of these framework significant products to be developed is the early warning system which will be critical for all climate sensitive sectors including agriculture. The SA National Biodiversity Institute co-ordinates the implementation of Adaptation Fund Projects in Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Cape.



These projects are aimed at developing communities and small-scale farmers in early warning systems, climate-proof settlements as well as climate-resilient agriculture. Government is currently in the process of developing the National Adaptation Strategy that articulates intervention to strengthen capacity building awareness including mainstreaming climate change in school curricula.



The National Adaptation Strategy will act as a common reference point for climate change adaptation efforts in the whole country. I will focus on key sectors such as water, health, agriculture, biodiversity, oceans and the coasts. In our efforts to finance the climate change response initiatives, South Africa has concluded bilateral agreements with Germany that will enable the provision of support to South Africa’s response initiatives through the Climate Support Programme as well as the Government of Flanders in Belgium through the third country support strategy focusing on climate adaptation.



On partnering with Higher Education Institution, the horticulture, milling, grain and meat industries have identified climate change as a key skill driver within their sectors. To this end, in responding to the emerging skills challenges, the AgriSETA in collaboration with Higher Education Institution is prioritising the training of



Environmental Research Scientists, Conservation Officers, Environmental Officers, Research and Agricultural Scientists. These programmes that we are talking about will be predominantly driven through the allocation of bursaries and graduate placement programmes.



The other participating institutions include the Agricultural Research Council, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, the Water Research Commission, the University of Wits, University of Cape Town, University of Stellenbosch, Rhodes University and the Free State University. Furthermore, the National School of Government has included mainstream climate change module in their compulsory induction programme which will benefit government officials at selected levels.



In this regard, we call upon government, business and civil society to collectively participate in tackling challenges that are posed by climate change. As a signatory to the Paris Agreement on Climate Change, South Africa is committed to reduce carbon emissions from the energy sector in particular in line with our 2016 intended national determined contribution. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr S J MOHAI: Through you chairperson, Comrade Deputy President, thank you for shedding light on this important matter and giving clarity in terms of government approach towards this complex phenomenon of climate change. Deputy President, we’re particularly encouraged by undivided attention given to protect agricultural production as agricultural remains key focus area, and also encouraged by the National Adaptation Strategy that is underway.

Emphasis on education for vulnerable communities is most welcomed and needs to be intensified, even ourselves as Members of Parliament need to play critical role as we are empowered by government information as discharged in Parliament.



Deputy President, you have said a call on private sector to participate meaningfully in the climate risk and mitigation management and lastly Deputy President, you correctly pointed out that the vulnerability assessment in all provinces is concluded. Is the issue of building resilient infrastructure to respond adequately to climate change also considered? I thank you.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, climate change is a real risk and it impacts negatively on food security, it will impact very negatively on water scarcity, air quality, it will further deepen poverty and push those who are disadvantaged further to extreme



positions. Therefore, it is important for all of us to stand up and work towards mitigating all the effects of climate change. The only way to do this is to try and conserve our environment. Conservation is as very important like pollution of air and water.



So, as a society or nation, we must take care of our actions that seek to disrupt the balance of nature. When we pollute air or water we are disrupting the balance of nature. There is life in water and all of us are breathing the air. So, our everyday actions must be in such a way that we are consciously aware that if we pollute water or air, it will affect us either negatively or positively.



Question 12 (cont):


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (cont): We are grateful that the Department of Environmental Affairs is reaching out to a number of research institutions; it is reaching out to a number of universities so that all of us can spread this message and can make people aware of their actions, if their actions are detrimental to the environment people must be made aware.



Our actions must be supportive of the environment so we reduce the risk of climate change. The biggest challenge that we are facing as the country is carbon emission, mainly driven out of our power



stations and it is about time that we take the necessary steps to reduce the emission.



There are technologies that we can use to help us reduce the emission in our power stations. So, that is one step that we must



take so we steam ahead with our efforts to reduce the emissions and ensure that we impact climate change in a positive way rather than in a negative way. So yes, we are doing everything in our power to ensure that we mitigate circumstances that can worsen our climate change.



Now, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, has made an announcement on 1 November 2019 about certain things that we must look at. The first announcement was about the month of September which has been dubbed as exceedingly the warmest month on record. The year 2019 has been among the five warmest years on earth in our recorded history. This has just been announced recently.



If we look at what the sum total of the climate change of the year, 2019 has been the warmest year. The sixth warmest years on record globally since 1880 will be the last six years which is 2014 through to 2019 with the peak occurring during the strong El Niño years of



2016. The year 2016 has been the pick. Now, climate change is influenced by our actions, the way we behave and the way we interact with nature. So, it’s important that we must be schooled. We must be aware of how best we should interact with nature.



But the best way is not to disrupt nature in a negative way. If you chop trees, you must know that you are disrupting nature. If you pollute water, you must know you are disrupting nature. If you pollute the atmosphere, you must know you are disrupting nature and the consequences can be dire. Thank you very much. [Applause.]





Nk S A LUTHULI: Sekela Mongameli, akusiyona imfihlo ukuthi abantu abaningi abazuzayo yilaba bantu bezolimo ikakhulukazi abalimi abakhulu. Iningi labantu alikwazi ngisho nokutshala ukuze bakwazi ukubeka ibhodwe eziko baze baye ezitolo bayothenga. Singabaxwayisa abantu ngalezi zinguquko zezimo zezulu kuze kubuye iNkosi kodwa kuzokwenzeka futhi akukho esingakwenza ngalokho. Umbuzo wami-ke ukuze ukwazi ukuthi ungiphendule kahle ukuthi, uzokusheshisa nini ukuthi ubuyise umhlaba kubantu ngoba abantu bethu abakwazi ngisho ukutshala ngenxa yokuthi umhlaba abanawo?



Nanokuthi lobu buchwepheshe obusetshenziswa ngamanye amazwe ukuthi bakwazi ukutshala ngisho noma kukhona izomiso, la eNingizimu Afrika sizokwazi nini ukuthi sibanikeze abantu lobo buchwepheshe ukuthi bakwazi ukutshala ukuze bakwazi ukondla bona kanye nemindeni yabo? Ngiyabonga.



USEKELA MONGAMELI: Siyabonga. Cha, kubalulekile ukuthi nanoma-ke sibheka ukuthi umhlaba kufuneka ubuyele ebantwini, kufuneka futhi sibheke ukuthi uma sesiwulethile lowo mhlaba loyo ebantwini bayakwazi yini ukuwusebenzisa ngendlela efanele. Bayakwazi futhi ukuthibawugcine umhlaba lo usesimweni esiwulungele ukuthi ungakhiqiza ukudla.



Ngoba-ke uma sikhuluma ngalokhu kuguquka kwesimo sezulu sikhuluma ngezinguquko ezibakhona ngenxa yezenzo zethu. Namuhla-ke siwuphendule umhlaba lo sawenza izindawo zokulahla udoti. Kukhona izinto eziningi esizifaka la emhlabathini bese ziyawubulala lomhlaba ukuthi ungabe usakhiqiza.



Ngakhoke, singamane sijahe nje ukuthi silethe umhlaba. Kufuneka sifundise abantu ukuthi, uma wenza lokhu, uwawulimaza umhlaba lo, ngeke kwazi futhi ukuthi uphinde uthole ukudla kulowo mhlaba.



Ngakhoke, ibalulekile indaba esixoxa ngayo, ukuguquka kwesimo sezulu elethwe yizenzo zethu.



Izinto esizenzayo ekuphileni kwethu, indlela esiziphatha ngayo, iyayilimaza imvelo bese kwenzeka izinto ebesingazazi ukuthi, hhawu, phela la kulo mhlaba sasithi uma sifake imbewu bese kubakhona okumilayo kodwa manje akusamili ngoba kunezinto esizenzilo kulo mhlaba sawubulala.



Kubalulekile-ke ukuthi sisukume sonke sibambisane sibafundise abalimi ikakhulukazi laba abalimayo ukuthi uma befuna ukuwugcina ukhiqiza umhlaba wabo, kufuneka bangakwenzi lokhu, benze lokhu benze lokhuya. Ngiyabonga.



Nk L C BEBEE: Sihlalo, Sekela Mongameli, ngithanda nje ukuthi ngifakazise ikakhulukazi eKwazulu-Natal ukuthi, cha, izigceme zonke zinazo izikhungo zenhlekelele.



Sinazo nje, okumnandi, ukuthi sinawo uMnyango Kahulumeni Wokubambisana kanye Nezindaba Zezendabuko oholwa umfana omncane wakaHlomuka ogijima aze abashe abemfushane aqikelelele ukuthi kuwowonke amakhaya bayakwazi ukuthi izinhlelo zokuqwashisa umphakathi ngesimo sezulu kubanjani.



Siphinde sibe noMnyango Wezokuthuthukiswa Komphakathi, umama uKhoza nangu la emuva kwami, ugijima aze abe mufushane kulezi zikhungo ukuxe aqikelele ukuthi uma sekuqale lesi simo zonke izimo zime ngokuhle. Bese kuba ... [Ubuwelewele.] hhayibo ngiyandlalela, ezolimo la emuva kwami, umhlonishwa u-Sithole-Moloi ogijima naye aze abe mufushane ngezolimo, ezoqwashisa omama basemakhaya isikakhulu ukuthi ymangabe inhlekelele ifika kubanjani.



Bese kubakhona uMnyango Wezemisebenzi Yomphakathi, u-Fraser, ngiyeza ngawo, okuwuyena obonelela ukuthi izakhiwo ezikhona, thina-ke eKwazulu-Natal, kwaziwa ukuthi abantu uma inhlekelele ikhona la, abantu bayangena la, ukuthi abantu baphephe babekahle.



Sekela Mongameli, bese-ke ngiyabuza-ke la, yiyiphi inqubekela phambili uHulumeni eseyenzile ekwakheni izingqalasizinda zezakhiwo ezibhekene nesimo sezulu na? Nokuthi likhona yini iqhinga lokuqinisekisa ukuthi izwe lethu selisesimweni sokuqondana nezimo ezimbi kakhulu kulezi zinhlekelele zemvelo? Ngiyabonga, Sekela Mongameli.



USEKELA MONGAMELI: Cha! Ngiyabonga. Izimo lezi ziyehlukana futhi nje ngeke ngithi likhona izwe elithi likulindele ukubhekana nanoma ngabe yisiphi isimo. Izimo lezi ziyehlukana kodwa kunezinto okufanele



ukuthi siziqaphele sizilungise kodwa kubakhona okuba ngaphezu kwamandla ethu.



Kodwa, into yokuqala ukuthi kufanele ukuthi yonke into ezosivelela ezosehlela sikwazi ukuyibona iseza. Ukuze sizilungiselele kufanele kube nalento esithi i-early warning system sikhone ukubona ukuthi uma kunesiphepho esizayo, sizokwenza lokhu, sizokwenza lokhuya bese abantu sibathuthe endaweni ethile sibabeke endaweni ethile.



Ziyenzeka lezi zinto lezi umhlaba wonke kodwa siyibona inhlekelele iseza bese siyalungiselela bese impilo, abantu, bayathuthwa bayobekwa endaweni ephephile ize idlule leyo nhlekelele ngoba inhlekelele le isuke idalwe isimo sezulu. Esinye isimo lesi singaphezu kwamandla ethu thina bantu esiphila emhlabeni.



Ngoba ngishilo ukuthi, yebo, kufanele sikubone kuseza, i-early warning system, kubekhona futhi lokhu esikulungiselele ukuthi umangabe kubakhona isimo somlilo sikwazi ukuwucisha umlilo. Uma kubakhona isimo sezikhukhula, imvula ibe isibaningi ngokwedlulela kubekhona esingakwenza, sibe namandla athile okuthi sibhekane naleso simo.



Kodwa, ekugcineni kwakho konke singaba nawo amandla okubhekana nesimo sikwazi futhi ukubona ngaphambili ukuthi kuzokwenzeka lokhu nalokhuya. Kodwa, into ekufanele siyiqikelele siyiqaphele yizenzo zethu.





The way we behave on a daily basis as we interact with nature. We must be careful that our interaction with nature affects nature. It affects nature in a very negative way.



Question 12 (cont):


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Contd.): In fact, it deteriorates nature.





Manje-ke uma umhlaba wethu ulahlekelwa ukuba umhlaba onothile, uma umoya wethu ulahlekelwa ukuba umoya esingawuphefumula, uma amanzi wethu alahlekelwa ukuhlanzeka kwawo bese kulimaza impilo, sekulimaza umuntu. Umuntu ophuza lawo manzi, umuntu ohogela lowo moya, njengoba sikhuluma, laphayana eNdiya, basenkingeni enkulu ngoba abasakwazi ukuphefumula. Umoya sewungcole kakhulu. Abasazi nabo ukuthi bayophuma kanjani. Kodwa, izinto ababezenza nsuku zonke bezisebenza nokuphikisana nokuhlanzeka komoya.



Njalo nje izinto abazenzayo nsuku zonke zingcolisa umoya. Bathe bayavuka ngelinye ilanga ayi umoya sewungcole kakhulu. Okwamanje-ke sekufanele basebenzise imali eningi ukuze bazame ukuthi umoya lo uhlanzeke. Ngoba abantu sebayalimala, sebayagula. Abantwana balahlekelwe ngamalanga athile okuya esikoleni. Kuphele cishe amaviki amabili noma izinsuku eziyishumi abantwana bangakwazi ukuya esikoleni. Futhi ukungayi kwabantwana esikoleni hayi ukuthi kuzosishintsha isimo. Sebe kwisimo esibi. Vele abantwana laba bazogula. Lesi sizukulwane sizothinteka ngalezi zenzo ebezenzeka isikhathi eside sokungcolisa umoya.



Manje-ke, kubalulekile ukuthi thina sonke kufuneka sisukume sikhuze uma sibona umuntu engcolisa umfula, sisukume sikukhuze lokho. Uma sibona umuntu engcolisa umoya, sisukume sikukhuze lokho. Uma sibona umuntu ebulala umuthi laphaya, umuthi lowo, isihlahla lesi siwukulinganisa kule mvelo. Uma sibulawa leso sihlahla kufanele sikukhuze lokho.



Kuningi ke esingakwenza singayekeleli kuphela kuMnyango Wezemvelo, Amahlathi kanye Nezezinhlanzi. Sonke ...






... if we can act together, but in the main, the biggest polluter in the world currently, is government.





Uhulumeni iwona ongcolisayo. Nathi thina abantu siyangcolisa njengoba sasikhuluma ngomfula i-Vaal, njengoba sasikhuluma ngo- Eskom, yizenzo zethu. Manje ke imiphumela yalokho ...





... they are very disastrous, they are very dangerous to the life of the ordinary people, dangerous to the life of the nation. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, I am giving my question to the hon Oucamp.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chair, well I was initially recognised by you. You nodded your head so, but thank you very much, hon Labuschagne.






Mr W A S AUCAMP: Well, that does not matter now I am at the podium to speak. Mr Deputy President, thank you very much. It is



commendable that you are giving attention to climate change. However, whatever state of the art early warning systems you are engaging with universities; that is also commendable. However, that is not nearly as accurate as the current situation that we are finding ourselves in.



The Northern Cape and various other areas of South Africa have experienced drought now for more than five years. We do not need early warning systems anymore. That is the reality, now for four or five years already.



So, whilst we are commending you for taking this serious, we also have to ask if all the early warning systems in the world are there, but you are not looking reality in the face. What do they help? All those early warning systems are useless if you do not implement the measures to counter them.



You went to the Northern Cape and you said that the Northern Cape can get R30 million, out of R640 million that was required. So, thank you again for that as well. The point is just what will this government do to at long last implement all the requirements to mitigate this drought, to not only do lip service, but to really look at the plight of the farmers and of all the people suffering



from this current drought that is devastating and implement sufficient measures to counter this? Thank you, Mr Deputy President.



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well thank you very much, hon member. The Northern Cape’s situation is been very painful, where a farmer decided to commit suicide. He could not really take it to see his livestock dying. Finally he decided to commit suicide. Well, it is a painful experience, but one thing, early warning system yes, but an early warning system that must be communicated to people.



People must change their actions the way they do things. For instance, here in the Western Cape, we went down to Day Zero and everyday you were given information about the dam levels. We must not do this and we must use water like this and so on. People continued as if nothing has changed. Until the last day when it was said that there is no water now.



Human behaviour is very important. We can blame who ever, but if they tell you to say no, no, watch and let us look after our dams, let us look at our resources and use water sparingly. Do so.



However, we have come to a point where as South Africans we ignore these early warning systems. Well, in the Northern Cape, it is a



different situation. When I was there the farmers told me that they are in that situation for seven to eight years on the consistent drought, but I am saying there as government we could have done better because there are areas along the Orange River where we can plant a lot of fodder and try and supply farmers which currently that is what we did to say this land belongs to government and that land belongs to government we gave that land to the province to plant fodder so that they can feed animals.



I mean we could have reacted better at that time. Now our intervention was not really up to scratch. I am hoping to still work with the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and with the province to find the way of relocating some of the farmers because there is absolutely nothing that they can do with their land. It is just dry. Probably offer them alternative land where they can relocate their livestock. I mean we need to do some plans to make the farmers there to survive so that there could be food. However, the bottom line is that people must take care and take early warning systems very important.



We are being told now that this warm climate is going to have devastating effects on our agriculture, animals and everything. We must take care and we must use water sparingly. This is the message



now. We must not wait until we are experiencing a problem. South Africans must learn to take early warning systems serious and prepare themselves.



I am happy that certain governments like in KwaZulu-Natal, the province has prepared itself, but it can only do so much. They can only have so many tents and so many beds that they can help people, but they cannot help the entire province. People must be able to take early warning messages serious.



As government we are going to confront the drought, but we can only do so working with our people. We are going to use underground water and we are going to use it sparingly. Let us look after our dams and our resources very careful. We abuse them, we will suffer. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Deputy President. As the Deputy President takes his seat, please allow me to say two things. The first one is that we should thank as the NCOP the Deputy President to avail himself to answer the questions. [Applause.]



Secondly, to indicate that the Deputy President is free to now leave us in this venue as our business continues. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Lastly, we will now suspend the deliberations of this House for two minutes to allow space so that after these two minutes, we will then convene and begin to have debates and deliberations on the Springbok question as indicated earlier on. Two minutes. Thank you very much.











Mnr S F DU TOIT: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, Paul Roos was die kaptein van die eerste Suid-Afrikaanse rugbyspan geklee in groen en goud wat ’n toer in 1906 en 1907 na die Britse Eilande en Frankryk onderneem het. Dit was gedurende hierdie toer dat die Suid-Afrikaanse rugbyspan die bynaam “Die Springbokke” gekry het. Dit is deur die pers aan hulle gegee.



Die springbok word, soos ons nasie, soms deur baie onderskat. Rassie en sy span wat deur Siya Kolisi gelei is, het weereens bevestig dat ons as Suid-Afrikaners onsself met die springbok kan vereenselwig.

Ons is aanpasbaar en kan in enige omstandighede, hetsy lowergroen grasvelde of ’n Kalahari-woestyn, oorleef.



Net soos die springbokke in troppe na mekaar omsien, is ons ook in ons onderskeie gemeenskappe interafhanklik van mekaar vir ons voortbestaan. Ons put ons krag uit die grond onder die ongenaakbare Afrika son en leef letterlik dag na dag op geloof.



Soos die springbok, smag ons na reën en uitkoms wat op die regte tyd kom. En ons word nooit deur God se genade teleurgestel nie.





Handre Pollard sustained an injury during last Saturday’s 32-12 win over England in the Rugby World Cup final in Yokohama. He suffered a broken cheekbone. He is a legend that showed us that, to achieve success, one must give every challenge your all, no matter what life throws your way. It’s by taking the blows and facing the challenges head-on that we will prevail.



Rugby is a team sport. So is politics. You have to abide by the rules that are set out. You have to choose the best player or candidate on the basis of qualification and merit. The game plan needs to be clear. The team needs to be united, respecting their differences and their opinions. There needs to be set goals to work towards. There needs to be cohesion.



The FF Plus hereby congratulates Rassie and his team on their great achievement.



According to SA Rugby magazine, all of New Zealand ... [Interjections.]



I mentioned his name earlier.



... all of New Zealand, Ireland, England, Wales and Australia were tipped with better odds than the Boks for going all the way.





Die Bokke kan nou met trots pronk. Bokke ...





... you proved them wrong, and we salute you.



To God be all the glory!



Mr S E MFAYELA: Hon House Chairperson, allow the IFP to congratulate the Springboks on their Rugby World Cup victory this past weekend in Japan. This victory is not the victory of a single team, but rather the victory of a nation who must take the life lesson offered through sport.



The Springbok victory brings my thoughts to fall upon the famous words of Helen Keller:



Alone, we can do little. Together, we can do so much.



This is truly inspirational and fitting for the Springbok victory, because it shows a team that is still busy transforming, yet is still able to achieve so much because it has a common belief.



I was once a young boxer and keen soccer player. I learnt many life lessons which taught me the value of discipline and teamwork. From this I know sport to be the single-most unifying activity.



We wish to thank the entire team, coach Rassie Erasmus and our captain, Siya “The Great” Kolisi. [Applause.] This young man makes



us proud. To bring together a nation ... May your victory be ... [Inaudible.] ... and fulfilling. Thank you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, although this person has been speaking so much in this House, please take note that it is her maiden speech in this House.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, even though rugby was brought to this country by murderous British colonialists, it took on a development of its own and became deeply embedded in the culture and imagination of our people, particularly those who were among the first to come into contact with colonialism.



Over the past 200 years, the culture has become so strong that, despite the many years of subjugation and marginalisation of black talent and deliberate attempts by Afrikaners to claim rugby as their own sport, our people have persisted and, against all odds, made it to this team. These talented players had been deliberately shut out of the system while a small minority of Dutch origin sought to monopolise the sport.



It is against this backdrop that we salute the brave efforts of this new generation of black rugby players who have broken all systemic



barriers against their progress. We salute Siya. We salute Cheslin. We salute Makazole. We salute Lukhanyo Am, Bongi Mbonambi, Elton Jantjies, Tendai Mtawarira. We also salute Aphiwe who we believe was strategically excluded from the game. They played valiantly in a team that included the racist Eben Etzebeth who stands accused of having assaulted black people merely because they are black.



It is because of these circumstances that the achievements of these black players stand monumental. They achieved this with known racists among them as their counterparts. May they live long to see rugby fully transformed in this country, and bring many more other trophies to this country. Thank you. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder ... [Inaudible.] It’s just a pity that you are having also the English Rose.



Mr D R RYDER: No, no, no, that’s not a rose, Deputy Chair. Can we zero the time, if you don’t mind, so that we start afresh?



On Tuesday of this week I rose on a point of order to ask for this opportunity. So, to the Chairperson, the Chief Whip and the programming team, and I’m sure hon Nyambi as well, I say thank you very much for acceding to the request.



The South African rugby team, the Springboks, went to Japan with a country’s hopes on their substantial shoulders, led by a giant in physical, mental and charismatic stature, our captain, Siya Kolisi. They played consistently well, timing their peak for the final.



The sportsmanship and character shown by the team as a group was remarkable.



The team consisted of a diverse group of South Africans. We were well represented. The result has been that South Africans from all walks of life came together and celebrated. People who are maybe seldom seen together were seen hugging, dancing and celebrating together in taverns, bars, homes, public viewing sites and streets around the country.



The social cohesion and nation-building project has been driven forward, very much like the creative midfield in the second half of the overwhelming 32-12 win in the final against England.



The importance of a win such as this cannot be overstated. The images of South African sports heroes leading us to victory on a world stage is something that should not be belittled.



South Africa is a marginalised country on the southern tip of the continent of Africa. Out continent is often underestimated in terms of its potential. So, when excellence is demonstrated and recognised, it should be cherished.



A win of this magnitude by a team of diverse but united players acting in unison with a common goal in mind, gives us hope in so many ways. On the sportsfield, at school, in life, as a community and as a country, we are all inspired.



We are living in difficult times in South Africa. Our economy is under pressure and our rainbow nation project has suffered as times have become harder and as divisive projects have been initiated by groups in pursuit of narrow self-interest.



The damage caused by Bell Pottinger was substantial. The polarising rhetoric of political parties that are focussed on race and division has pushed this project backwards and has pushed us backwards as a nation.



The Boks went forward as our standard bearers and it is now up to us as South Africans to heed their rallying call, to bind behind them and drive ourselves toward the goal line of a united country.



This may not yet be the united country that we dream of, but this reassertion has placed us back on the trajectory to unity.



I think it is important also to pay tribute to The Beast. Tendai Mtawarira has hung up his international boots after 117 test matches. Your role is greatly acknowledged. We salute you and wish you well in your retirement.





Elke enkele lid van die groep het bygedra, en Suid-Afrika is dankbaar aan hulle almal.



Ek wil ook vir Handre Pollard - wie vandag in die hospitaal lê - alles van die beste toewens vir ’n volle en vinnige herstel van sy beserings.





There will always be haters and spoilers. To the few small-minded deriders, I, in true South African fashion, merely shake my head and click my tongue: Tsk, ag shame.



We congratulate the team, Rassie Erasmus, the coaches and the support group that brought the Webb-Ellis Trophy back to South



Africa and placed South Africa in its rightful place as world champions, at a time when we really needed it.



We thank the families that stood behind them and supported them along the way.



Thank you, Bokke, for inspiring us. We are better together. We are better following your victory.





Re tswela pele kaofela.



Mr A J NYAMBI: Deputy Chairperson, Chairperson, hon members, fellow South Africans, starting from my right, drafters of the Constitution decided to have the National Council of Provinces. So, I would like to register that as this House, when we congratulate the good work done by the Springboks, we should write a formal letter to the SA Rugby Union, Saru, and request that the celebration should not only be in Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Western Cape and Eastern Cape, but should also go to North West, Free state, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and Limpopo. [Applause.] So, they are truly South Africans. [Interjections.]



Last Saturday, in a small village in Mpumalanga, Block C Sebokeng, in Nkomazi Municipality, I went to bed in a place that I could proudly call my beloved country - South Africa. I was reminded of the endless possibilities that South Africa represents when our rugby team, the Springboks, defy the odds to emerge victorious in this year’s edition of the Rugby World Cup in Japan.





Sibashaye, sababeka lutsi enhloko. [Tandla.]





Having triumphed over New Zealand in the semifinal match, England were the bookmaker’s choice to sweep South Africa aside, but our sporting heroes had other ideas. Not only did they win, they did so comprehensively. [Applause.] We salute Siya Kolisi-led battalion, which reminded us that we can play and win together as a country. [Interjections.] [Applause.]





Sitawuncqoba simunye. [Tandla.]






Their heroism should be a lesson to us that we can achieve more if we work as a team. Our former President, Tata Madiba once said: “It seems impossible until it is done.” Indeed, ours seemed like an impossible Japanese task until Springboks hoisted aloft the Webb Ellies Cup at the end of the 80 minute encounter.



I join all of our citizens in wishing the coach, Rassie Erasmus, and the entire technical team, the captain and all the players – and all the players! – well. [Interjections.] [Applause.] And thank you for their ambassadorial role. We will draw many lessons from their unity as a team and their cohesiveness as a true South African brand. I think I can now confer on President Ramaphosa the title of prophet as he predicted the outcome long before the first ball of the day was kicked. He said: “I will come and join you in lifting the trophy.”



The President said that to Siya Kolisi amid doubts that South Africa was up for the challenge. These doubts were fuelled by the fact that we have lost to New Zealand in the group stages. We are indeed the only team to have suffered a defeat in the group stages which then proceeded to be the champion in the history of the Rugby World Cup. We are the only country that has won the Rugby World Cup in three different continents - in Africa, in Europe and in Asia.



[Interjections.] Yes! We are a country of firsts, and we continue to do so under the stewardship of President Ramaphosa.





Sihole Mengameli!





Let me also congratulate Tendai “The Beast” Mtawarira on his retirement for international test matches as it has been alluded by my colleague. I have the following words to “The Beast” Mtawarira: “A good dancer knows when to leave the stage.” As the National Council of Provinces – as Parliament, we are proud of what they have done. They have promoted a true social cohesion foundation that we can use to unite the country. I thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members. Let me just conclude by saying to you South Africans that for the next four years, you will be world champions. Don’t forget that. [Interjections.] [Applause.] You are the champions of the world.

With all of that said and done, I just want to inform the hon members that Parliament today also hosted the stakeholders in the men’s Sector, addressing the very important issue that we have been



championing so far, the issue of gender-based violence, and also making sure that we are in preparation for next year - for the Men’s Parliament to become part and parcel of the process where the men’s sector will become involved in coaching our boys. This is so that in 2030, the investment that we are putting in boys will breed better men who will be able to protect our women, our children, our elders and people living with disabilities.



Debate concluded.



The Council adjourned at 17:08.




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