Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 23 Oct 2019


No summary available.





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The House met at 15:01.


The House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, before we proceed, I thought we should welcome members of the EFF from the gallery, the future generation the fighters. Let’s give them a round of applause ... [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... no, no, hon member ... [Interjections.]



Dr M Q NDLOZI: ... thank you very much, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, let’s not confuse colours with the occasion. Order, hon members! As I have said, members may ... order, hon members! Order! Order! Hon members, order, order.



Hon members, you may press the top button on the desk if you wish to ask a supplementary question. I also wish to remind you that the names of the members requesting supplementary questions will be cleared as soon as the member of the executive starts answering the fourth supplementary question. The first question has been asked by the hon Singh to the Minister of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries. I now recognise the hon Minister.




Cluster 4




Question 147:




FISHERIES: Thank you very much hon Chairperson and thank you for the question, hon Singh. I have not been furnished with the reports of independent investigations that were conducted on water pollution in areas where farmers are making use of products such as glyphosate Roundup. Although, I am aware that a number of regulatory and scholarly reviews have evaluated the relative toxicity of this product as a herbicide with seemingly conflicting results. With regards to question (a) it is, therefore, not applicable.



With regards to question (b), glyphosate is herbicide that falls under the definition of agricultural remedies as included in the Fertilizers, Farm Feeds, Seeds and Remedies Act 36 of 1947, which regulates the import, export, acquisition, conveyance sale disposal and use of agricultural remedies as well as the required registration thereof.



As these particular protocols falls under the administration and regulation of the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, I will raise the concerns expressed with the Minister of that department. Thank you very much.



Mr N SINGH: Through you Chairperson, thank you hon Minister for your response, although it is a pity that we have not had sight of any independent investigations in this regard. However, it beholds the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries although it is an agricultural matter to also conduct some investigations on water streams that may be polluted. I think Thor chemical was a classical example where communities from that area complained about the chemicals that were going into the stream.



As you know, hon Minister, as government we have not been able to provide all the citizens of our country with safe drinking water and they still use these streams. Children still use these streams in hot summer months where they go and swim. So, I think we may have a responsibility to look at some pilot investigations in some of these areas. It is a common cause, hon Minister, as you say that there is no conclusive research about the fact that some of these pollutants cause illnesses, but I think it is common knowledge that many of our illnesses are caused by the air we breathe and the food we eat.



Nowadays you find producers of food even injecting chicken to make them four times the size so that they can make more profit. I see the hon Deputy President is smiling, he knows that. So, they are force feeding these things. This is how they force-feed even our plants with chemicals that can cause harm and can exacerbate the risk of certain illnesses. So, what I would like to know, hon Minister, is if you would consider some pilot studies in areas where there is huge agricultural industry to see whether or not water streams and even the air may be polluted as a result of the use of glyphosate and other weed killers and chemicals? Thank you.





FISHERIES: Chairperson, allow me to discuss it with my counterpart and in due course we can come back to you and advise what decision we have taken. Thank you.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the glyphosate may have low toxicity, but usually the other chemicals used with glyphosate have higher toxicity and can be harmful to animals. So, given the dire impact of glyphosate or the potential dire impact of glyphosate on



the environment, is it not time that the department has it banned and propose alternatives, for example, organic non-selective herbicides which can control weeds, grass and broad leaves?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): That is the question, hon Minister.





FISHERIES: I think I have answered, hon Chairperson. This matter currently falls under my counterpart and I will discuss it with her.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon Chairperson, I am not happy with the response which the Minister gave because it impacts the environment. She is the Minister for the Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries. It impacts on the environment, animals and fish as well. She says it falls with her counterpart. That is not good enough for me.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon members, just calm down. Hon members, the Minister has indicated that she will interact and consult with her counterpart



on this matter because it is her responsibility that resorts somewhere else. That is her reply. From where we sit, as presiding officers, we don’t have eternal wisdom to decide if the question has been answered or not.

However, in line with what the original question was, what the Minister said was that we must give her that opportunity to do so. Hon member, you had your hand up.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chairperson, there are questions that are specific to her and her department. It is for the second time that she is saying she cannot give a response she will consult elsewhere. She must be responsible enough to know that follow up questions that relate to the main question will speak to issues of the environment and everything else that has been asked now. She is not responding to questions she is just referring to someone else. That is irresponsible. What is the purpose of us coming here if a Minister will refer all these questions to some persons elsewhere ... ?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... thank you, hon member ...



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... because we want responses now so that we are able to hold her accountable.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Order, hon members ...





House Chairperson ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... I will give you an opportunity now, hon member. Order, order, hon members! Now, hon members, if you look at the original question in terms of the specifics that the hon Singh asked, the Minister has responded to that. Now, arising out of the follow up questions she indicates that there are other areas of responsibility that resides somewhere else and that is fair. Let’s give the Minister the opportunity to consult and the question may be posed.





Chairperson, I just wanted to emphasise that the Minister did respond by saying ... [Interjections.] she gave an honest response by saying that she will consult with her



colleagues in the executive and come back to this House with a response. Also, the Minister, we cannot allow a situation where a Minister is being called irresponsible. She is responsible because she is taking it upon herself to consult ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]



Mr I K MOROLONG: Hon House Chair, there is no follow up from me.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You don’t want to have a follow up?



Mr I K MOROLONG: Not on this one.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member from the EFF, you said you had a follow up Question?



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Chairperson, we have a follow up on what the Deputy Chief Whip of the ANC is saying. This Minister must not come here to the House if she is not prepared, Chairperson. That is a follow up. It is unfortunate, Chairperson ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... take your seat, hon member ...



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... but why are we here? Why are we here in the House if the Minister can’t answer a simple question? It is her department.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... thank you ... thank you, hon member ...



Ms H O MKHALIPI: ... you are wasting our time.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Hon members, now I will not allow ... you see, this is a questions session to the executive, the Minister has responded. If the Minister gets into the territory that she is not acquainted with and she clearly indicates to the House that she must still consult, then, we in the House may hold her in contempt if she misleads the House for the information that she does not have. So, what do you want from her? The hon Minister will consult and she will revert back, that is where we leave it. Secondly, this is not a question session to other members of the



House. You can do that at your luxury outside of the House. This is a question session to the executive. Why are you rising, hon member?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, can she go outside now and consult?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, please, take your seat. Please, take your seat!



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Must go out now!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: We are paying her to answer!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. I want to move on. Now ... order, hon members, order ...



AN HON MEMBER: ... ice boy, give them ice. Can you please get some ice, ice boy! Ice boy, can you please get some ice?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... hon members, hon members, hon members calm down! Calm down! Hon member, please ... Hon counsellor to the Deputy President, I am chairing the session, I know you have certain views but there are Rules in the House and I am abiding by those Rules. I am not entertaining anyone. Hon member, why are you rising? What is the follow up?



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, my follow up is, given that this Question Paper has been published for two weeks, does the Minister think it is acceptable of her to say that she will only now go and consult? Why hasn’t she done so already?



An HON MEMBER: Chairperson ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... hon member, take your seat, please. Hon members, I have ruled on this matter and we will proceed to the next question.



Question 145:




House Chairperson, let me start off by saying that our commitment as a country to international conventions is unquestionable. So, the question, therefore, about our policy as a department as to whether they comply with the scientific consensus, yes, they do. Every time we develop a policy, we take into account the effect of climate change.



The department’s policy position is to give due regard for South Africa’s current realities of its energy sources. Transitioning into various other forms require careful approach which should be done in a just transition. That is what just transition is talking to. A just transition is a policy adopted in internationally conventions, taking into account that the development level of the various countries is not the same. So, our development stage is that we are at a stage that should not be compared to Europe, which is fully developed. We are at a lower level of development. When we develop policies, we take that into account.



Dr W J BOSHOFF: Thank you hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, I am glad that the Minister confirmed his commitment to the scientific consensus on the environment. For a moment, before this latest energy plan was announced, I thought it might be in cohorts with highly regarded climatologist like Mr Donald Trump ... [Interjections.] ... in being committed to a fossil fuel economy.



Nevertheless, I think that South Africa with its natural adaption for renewable energy is in a very good position disregarding our developmental stage to really take advantage of the sun and the wind.



As I read in the papers, the department has indeed again granted exploration permits for fracturing in the Karoo and we would think that it is much better to have a very distinct and well worked out exit strategy for coal and taking into account all the possibilities with a very short timeframe without wasting too much time on that.



I just want to say that I am very glad that even the red party turned green today. That was something I really appreciated. [Laughter.] Thank you.





me to Donald Trump ... [Laughter.] ... is an insult; simple. So, I give you the freedom to insult me because the privilege of Parliament gives you that right. But the reality of the matter is that our department is not a lobby group for a particular technology, it regulates energy supply. We are preoccupied with security of that supply. Hence we talk about just transition that there is no where in the international convention where we should move like a pendulum; from one extreme to the other. So, we are not going to do that. We are going to be systematic. That’s why the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP

... which you must read ... made provision for the various technologies. It is very systematic if you look at the number – what will happen by 2030. You will see that we are moving systematically in that transition but we aren’t writing off any technology, including coal.



If you read the IRP, when it talks about coal, it puts a rider that it must shift towards cleaner coal energy technologies. The reason why we added that rider is because we were taking into account our climate change commitments as a country. [Applause.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thanks House Chair, you are speaking about climate change commitments Minister: What are the current levels of carbon emissions by South Africa and where are we supposed to be taking into account that we are busy constructing two major power stations that are going to burn fossil fuels? Where are we now with regard to carbon emissions and where are we supposed to be? That is a straight forward question.





want to venture into numbers out of hand but I will give you the answer, Floyd. I am going to give you the answer. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let’s refer to one another as honourable.





Okay, hon Floyd let me give you the answer. I don’t want to throw numbers and do thumb sucking but where I can refer you to ... taking into account that: firstly, renewable energy, for example, was at zero at a certain point, it is now supplying 2,4% of the energy; secondly, you must know that there is published schedule of decommissioning a number of coal power stations. That actually talks to the programme of adapting to the commitments that we have made but as we do that ... before we throw numbers around ... we are making a point that says, if there is a possibility, just transition should not just be co-operatives and reskilling in areas because if you close Hendrina Power Station today, you will reduce the capacity of optimum and Hendrina town will become a ghost town immediately.



As we move towards that decommissioning, we develop alternative technologies to address the development of that community and not allow it to collapse.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order, hon member?



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The Minister is not responding to the question that we have asked. Do we have an obligation to reduce carbon emissions or increase it? At what level are we? Are we going up or down? That is a straight forward question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: If you do not know as a Minister of Minerals and Energy, then you are irresponsible ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat? We want to move on with the question session. Hon Mileham!



Mr K J MILEHAM: Thank you House Chair, Minister, recent scientific reports have conclusively shown that Mpumalanga has the highest nitrogen dioxide levels on earth and the second highest sulphur dioxide levels. This



is primarily because of the significant pollution emitted by Eskom’s coal-fired power stations.



Renewable energy has a major role to play in cleaning up our atmosphere. Now that the IRP has the been published and that you have admitted that that there is a supply gap in the provision of electricity, will you inform this House exactly when do you intend opening the next bid window for renewable energy independent power producers?





worried when MPs get surprised by things that they are aware of. All the power stations in Mpumalanga have been around. We have 16 coal generating power stations in the country. They are there. So, pollution by those power stations cannot take us by surprise. That’s why it is important that it is not coal or renewables; the commitment is at reducing carbon emissions and other emissions from high emissions to low emissions. That process is going to be a process, it is not an event.

That’s why we talk of a just transition.



So, if you want a date for that ... no, because you are not an MP, you are a lobbyist. [Laughter.] I can’t deal with a lobbyist in Parliament ... [Interjections.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: On a point of order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising? Hon Minister, will you just take your seat, please?






Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Sir, it imputes improper motives on the hon Mileham to suggest that he is a lobbyist and not an hon member of this House. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, will you withdraw that remark, please?





an activity of promoting something ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, just withdraw the remark, please?





to withdraw that?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, please!





you get it but ...



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising, hon member?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Can the Minister just say if they are opening up for independent power producers, IPPs, or not?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, please take your seat?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: It is an important opportunity.



Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chair!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): We have gone past that question now.



Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chair!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising, hon member?



Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chair, my question was very simple. It was when will the next window open?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Well, hon member, the Minister has replied.



Mr K J MILEHAM: The Minister is mantashing again, Chair!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ... Order! Hon members, you must also keep in mind that your questions must be clearly linked to the original question that is there. I have allowed a situation for the Minister to expand as far as he could but obviously, it



is clear that the original question has been answered and with regard to your follow up question, the Minister responded. I can’t compel him to give a House a date if he is not ready to do so. It doesn’t exist.



Mr M N NXUMALO: House Chair, thank you very much, hon Minister, given the fact that South Africa’s use of coal burning fossil fuels will only peak around 2030 due to the high amount of reserves we have available and given that our new coal-fired power stations, Medupi and Kusile will ostensibly run until 2075; South Africa is clearly on the trajectory that will see the greenhouse gas emissions rise in the next decade for they taper off and begin to fall in post 2030 and beyond.



My question is therefore that more focus should be around the long-term energy mix plans for the department, particularly the role around nuclear and renewable energy resources now, especially post 2030. How do you then see these sectors developing and do you intend on deregulating energy supply in South Africa in favour of creating more enabling environment for the independent power producers in this regard? Thanks.





the independence that generates energy. It is power stations that are based on technologies. Now, the IRP makes provision for all the technologies; from coal, nuclear gas, wind, solar and sun – all of them. The reason we do that ... let me explain so that you can explain to others ... is that we are endowed with coal in the country. We are the only country ... and it is a sign of unsettlement, when a country has no interest and needs but it must be a pawn of the powerful countries of the west and therefore, thus repeat their message over and over without looking at its own interests and needs.



So, the point I am making is that, we have coal and it is not going be finished in 30 years. That’s why in the IRP, we said we will continue with coal but put a proviso that it shifts to cleaner coal energy technologies - that’s the qualifier. So, the point I am making is therefore that renewables are going to grow. Go to the numbers in the IRP, you’ll see that wind, for example, is projected to be supplying 18% of energy by 2030. Together with solar, it is now supplying 4,5% paid for at 24% because the myth that we repeat over and over here is that there



is something new called cheap renewable. Actually for photovoltaic, PV, in round 1, we are paying R4,25 a unit today. It is not wrong. Go to the banks, they will tell you we are paying R4,25 for round 1; R274 for round 2 and only round 4 has come down to R1,08 for PV and R0,87 for wind. It is going down but we cannot close our eyes at this point in time, we source our energy from round 1, 2 and 3, which are all above the average of Eskom’s supply.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon Minister, hon members before I proceed to the next question, I would like to welcome in the gallery the teachers and learners from Ngcobo Primary School in the Eastern Cape. [Applause.]



Question 178:


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, the question says: What steps is the National Treasury taking within its means to ensure the expedient realisation of the goals of the seven priority tasks regarding economic recovery as outlined by the President?



Well, first of all I do not know why the expediency, but anyway the answer to the question is as follows: The President, in his state of the nation address, in June 2019, outlined seven priorities for the sixth administration. This included: one, economic transformation and job creation; two, education skills and health; three, consolidating the social wage through reliable and quality basic services; four, spatial integration, human settlements and local government; five, is social cohesion and safe communities; six, a capable ethical and developmental state; and seven, a better Africa and a better world.



Now, the National Treasury’s mandate is to provide funding for policy decisions in government within the context of its decisions, within its constraints and within the fiscal envelope. Therefore this overarching mandate, which covers these seven areas, has to be provided for in the budget. These initiatives are clearly spelled out in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework.



I would like to request hon members to bear with me, not to pre-empt the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement in



terms of what would be delivered next week. Most of the details requested here would be outlined there. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Is there a follow-up question from the hon Abraham? There is not follow-up question. The hon Shivambu!



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, you will agree with me that what ever form of economic recovery plan requires energy, stability and dependability of electricity supply. Yesterday, when you were closing the debate on Special Appropriation, you said that the challenges of Eskom are not only about the money, but also the issue of leadership.



Do you think that Jabu Mabuza is suitable to lead Eskom towards the provision of sustainable and dependable energy for the recovery plans? Whether the reactionary things that you have published and the rightwing proposals that you have brought here: Do you think that Jabu Mabuza will lead Eskom towards the provision of stable energy to South Africa?



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, the role that Jabu Mabuza plays at Eskom is that of the chairman of the board of directors. He is so appointed in that position by the shareholders. I am quite certain that the shareholders exercise their minds when they make such appointments.



So, Jabu Mabuza is the nonexecutive chair of the Eskom Board of Directors on a temporary basis. Given the recent resignation of the chief executive officer, the board of directors has asked him to fill in the position of the chief executive officer until the new chief executive officer is appointed, I understand very soon.



Yes, very competent - I am quite certain that would be the case in order to be able to manage this huge organisation into the future. House Chair, I would ask that the hon member does not pose an additional question because he is trying to make me come into the territory of the Minister of Public Enterprises. I know his thinking. That is what he is trying to do. [Laughter.]



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, in that state of the nation address the President identified the seven priority areas; later he identified five core tasks; and at the Presidential Job Summit, the identified 77 priority tasks of this government. Now in all of those lists of tasks and priority areas, very little has been achieved over the last six months, the President has himself admitted.



Speaking in London last week, he says that actually the core reason for the slow pace of achievement in those lists of tasks is government itself, because there is little agreement. While there may be agreement on the goals, there is very little agreement on how to achieve them. So, I ask you: Do you agree with the President’s sentiments that government is the biggest inhibitor to growth and achieving these priority areas; and if you would, be so kind as to point out exactly which of your colleagues are the biggest enemies of growth. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister. Hon members you are reminded that according to the Rules, a



follow-up question only consist of one question and not multiple questions. Hon Minister!



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, I wanted to confirm to the hon member that I went to school. I studied. I know what a tricky question is. That is what you are trying to do. You are trying to put me on a collision course with the President. You are most unlikely going to succeed. [Laughter.]



In fact, when I was at the university I would have said you are going to successfully fail. Thank you very much. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon Nxumalo.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Sorry. Yes!



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Hon Chairperson, I think with respect, I have already succeeded. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The next follow- up question is from the hon Buthelezi from the IFP.



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chairperson, my question actually would have been similar to the first question that was asked in the follow-up and I have taken the point that the Minister has mentioned to say he will give more details next week. So, maybe after that, if my questions were not answered, I will put a question. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Is there a follow-up question from the hon Kula? No follow-up question. Hon members, let us proceed. I now proceed to Question 158 that has been asked by the hon Steyn to the Minister of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. I have also been informed that the Deputy Minister will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister. The hon Deputy Minister!



Question 158:




DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair, thank you for the question.



The number of title deeds handed out for restitution purposes since 09 May 2019 is 27 in six provinces. In relation to branch Land Tenure and Administration one title deed was handed over to the Yendela Community Property Association in the Eastern Cape. I thank you, hon Chair.



Mrs A STEYN: Hon Deputy Minister, through you House Chairperson, it is now 25 years since the democratic order was established but still today in the former homelands access to and the occupation of land is still regulated by the regulation that was passed by Parliament and other legislative bodies of the apartheid era. It is for this reason that the Upgrading Act was enacted to give black people secure rights in land. It permits them to convert occupational rights into ownership but due to related policy of apartheid that relief is not available to all South Africans.



In August this year, the Constitutional Court found out that it is unfair to afford redress to some of the victims of the discrimination under apartheid and withhold that redress from other victims based on where



they currently live. According to your own department, a submission to court there is no good reason for depriving those in the former homelands the benefits brought about by the Upgrading Act. When will your department comply with the ruling of the Constitutional Court and offer title deeds to people living in the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei states? Give people the choice if they want title to the land like the courts asked you.





DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair, it is 25 years as she says and colonialism was more than 300 years. It is in recognition of that particular process that we understand that the construction of a united democratic nonsexist and nonracial South Africa is not an event. It is a process that is going to outlive both of us. What is important is that the department and this particular government are doing something to effect the redress and bring an equal society to our people. Thank you.



Mrs A STEYN: Hon Chair, the Deputy Minister did not answer the question. There was a Constitutional Court



case that told them to do something and they are not doing it.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am sure hon member if you had asked that question then the Minister would have been in a position to do so. The original question is asking about the total number of title deeds that the department has handed out for restitution and land reform since May this year. What you are asking now in a supplementary question, with all due respect, is a new question.



Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon House Chair, out of the number given to your answer, there is a biggest challenge that the department had of the beneficiaries preferring to take money instead of acquiring the land bought for them. In the very same number that you have given us how many if any of those recipients that might have written to the department demanding that they would rather be given money and have the farms sold back? Thank you.





DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair, like the Minister of



Mineral Resources and Energy, I do not want to just jump into the figures when I do not have the accuracy of such figures. Generally what I can say to you is that the issue of people preferring financial compensation than land is an issue that is very vast. When people have been oppressed and poverty is so much they really think that the immediate solution to their problem is financial compensation which they can use immediately.



This government and many parties here have emphasised and indicated to the importance of land over simple financial compensation. We continue to educate our people about the fundamental issue of retaining land. That is why we are really looking forward to the issue of finalising the amendment to the particular Constitution. Your issue is a really one that is facing us but we continue to educate people about the importance of preferring land which will last forever than financial compensation. I do not want to jump to the figures as I have indicated. Thank you.





Ms E M THLAPE: Modulasetilo wa Ntlo, potso ya ka go motl Motlatsatona ke gore, malobeng re bone Mafapha a



Pusoselegae le Kabo ya Matlo, Lefapha la Temothuo, Tlhabololo ya Metsemagae le Kabo ya Mafatshe a tshwere ka thata go aba kano tsa bong. Sentl-sentle kano ya bong ke eng, le gone mosola wa gonna le yona o le moagi wa Aforikaborwa gape o le motho o montsho ke o feng? Ke a leboga.





DEVELOPMENT: This is South Africa and we have got 11 Official languages. A title deed can be defined as a legal document providing a person a right to property. It is something very fundamental in this new South Africa.





Njengokuba abantu bakuthi bebeba ngoogob’ityholo bezenzela amatyotyombe apho bathe babona indawo. Kobo bugob’ityholo babengenazo iziqinisekisi mnini besalelwa ngurulumente ongqondo-gqwirha owayengabathatheli ntweni. Ngoku ke, yiyo loo nto ubaluleke kangakanana umcimbi wesiqinisekisi mnini ingakumbi xa kukho umbuzo othi ...






... what does a title deed mean to a black South African? It provides dignity to have a roof over your land; a land that you can call yours.





Umhlaba onothi ukwazi ukwenza nantoni na ngawo nokuba ufuna ukwenza urhwebo ungakwazi ukuba uwusebenzise.

Okubaluleke kakhulu kukuba nomntu ongumama apha kuMzantsi Afrika omtsha uyakwazi ukusinikwa isiqinisekiso mnini.





This shows the interests of this government in advancing the cause of an equal society providing women as equal partners to their men folk. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Hon House Chair, the Fifth Parliament resolved on the amendment of section 25 of the Constitution to usher in the redistribution of land without compensation. Hon Minister, why are continuing to issue title deeds when we have agreed that land is going to be expropriated without compensation and put all the land under the custodianship of the state for equal redistribution? Are these title deeds still relevant hon



Minister, after having made that amendment on section 25 of the Constitution? Thank you. [Applause.]





DEVELOPMENT: The distribution and the handing out of title deeds to our people do not negate the redistribution of land. In fact it does enhance it. The point that the hon member is making, I am sure he is confusing positions of a political party with what we have agreed on. I think that there is total agreement amongst us, especially from this side and the EFF that land must be expropriated without compensation.



The issue that the hon member is now venturing into, in my little recollection, it might be an issue that belongs to a particular political party. Maybe when we begin to debate that we might perhaps agree or not agree. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Question 184:




DEVELOPMENT: Chair, as government led by the ANC, we are guided by the respect of the Constitution of our country.



Chapter 3 of the Constitution puts emphasis on corporative governance. Section 41 of the Constitution conjoins us to preserve peace, national unity and indivisibility of the republic.



It also provides effective, transparent, accountable and coherent government for the republic and its people. It also speaks about co-operating with one another in mutual trust and good faith by amongst other things, informing each other and consulting one another on matters of common interest, co-ordinating our actions and legislation with one another.



Therefore, it is very important for the three spheres of government to work together and ensure policy realignment without encroaching on each other’s competency. We note with concern the allegations of some of the municipalities and individuals intended on hastily disposing land to undermine the process of amending section 25 of the Constitution.



On this, we want to be firm and say, any intention to undermine the expropriation of land without compensation



will be no tolerated at all. Thank you very much. [Applause.]





Moh M M E TLHAPE: Jaaka go kgatlhile lekgotla leno motlotlegi.





Hon Deputy Minister, the sector is also competing with informal settlements which are mushrooming all over. In most cases, on agricultural land at local government level, informal settlements have taken over land for livestock grazing and food production. What is the department doing to protect and preserve agricultural land at local government level? Thank you.





DEVELOPMENT: One good intervention in that regard that can help us a lot is local municipalities passing by laws which would need to be enforced. Lack of enforcement can cause the challenges that the hon member has identified. Also, the effective implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, SPLUMA, will lessen



such a challenge. We believe and affirm that agricultural land must be used for agricultural purposes and not for township establishment.



There is a need for strengthening public awareness on existing bylaws, SPLUMA and food security, so that people understand where an area should be zoned for agriculture and where human settlement can be allowed.



In this regard, you would recall that our department had land reform district committees which involved various sectors in the local municipality and this also goes a long way in ensuring the effective allocation of land use. This is also why we think that the initiative by our President on the district development model; is an initiative that assists very much because it also speaks into the realignment and the working together of different spheres of government. I thank you.



Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chair, Deputy Minister, during the apartheid administration, farmers mostly, had the privilege of owning more than one farm and in some cases, three to five farms. If I may ask, is there a



policy now in your department which restricts each farm owner to have more than one farm in his position, so as to allow an opportunity for every interested farmer to have piece of land to produce in this country? Thank you very much.





DEVELOPMENT: Parliament would recall that during the fifth administration, the President in a state of the nation address spoke about the hectares that each individual should own our country. In that regard, he also spoke about restrictions of land ownership in our country by foreigners.



Therefore, if we are creating an equal society, we are fighting against a monopoly in relation to land because if we allow individuals to own as much land as they want or depending on the fatness of their pockets, it will defeat the issue of creating an equal society. Thank you.



Mrs A STEYN: Chairperson, I am noting that you are allowing a question that is not linked to the original question while my previous one was. So my question to the



Deputy Minister is; when will the government make all suitable state land available for land reform purposes so that we don’t have to rely on the different spheres of government to do it? The state must just make the land available.





DEVELOPMENT: There is a process that includes the Minister but its lead by the Deputy President of the country. In this particular process, what we are busy with, and I think in fact the Deputy President spoke about this matter a day ago, is that we have started a process of releasing the particular parcels of land.



What the Deputy President and what we are saying is that, we need to rapidly to release a particular land. So this is under attention and we will be here next week and you might find out that there is land that is being released in a particular area. This is a working progress and it is happening as we speak through the Inter Ministerial Committee, IMC. Thank you very much.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Deputy Minister, wouldn’t it be appropriate for government to put a moratorium on the sale of land until we finalise the constitutional amendment of section 25 and develop a comprehensive plan on the use of land; so that we don’t find people sitting on productive land unused when there are people who can put that land into very good use? Thank you.





DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for that question. Ideally that question might be attractive and appetising but in a situation like ours, with the democracy that we have, and in that particular democracy we spoke about property clause, it will really be difficult for us to say that we will have a moratorium on the sale of land.



This is why in response to the other question; I indicated our worry in relation to making sure that whoever sells land doesn’t undermine the process of expropriation of land without compensation. But I think it would be difficult to bluntly say that there would be a moratorium passed by government. Thank you.



Question 176:




Chairperson, this is the question regarding the finalisation of the Petroleum Amendment Bill. Actually, the development and the finalisation of the Petroleum Amendment Bill, addresses peculiar matters pertinent to the petroleum industry and provides investors with the required regulatory certainty to unlock the much-needed invest vestment into the South African petroleum industry

– that is the first thing.



The secondly, both the objects and provisions of the draft Bill recognise government’s objectives of transforming the country’s economy. The provisions of the Bill will, therefore, provide for active participation of black persons, empower the Minister to develop transformation Charter for the upstream petroleum industry, to further government’s transformation agenda and empower the state to participate in the petroleum activities for the benefit of all South Africans.



Let me add just one sentence. We have done benchmarking. Where petroleum sector is separated from mining both



sectors perform better. We think that if we want the petroleum sector to grow at the necessary pace, we must liberate it from being an appendage of mining so that both mining and petroleum could flourish.



Mr M G MAHLAULE: Thanks, Chair. Hon Minister, South Africa’s petroleum industries are relatively underdeveloped when compared to countries such as the oil and gas producers in Africa, the Middle East, Russia and North America. Domestic market is also underdeveloped.

What measures will government put in place to ensure that South Africa is able to compete successfully with countries that have more developed petroleum industries and also increase the demand in the domestic economy?

Thank you.





underdevelopment of the petroleum sector underpins our desire to establish it so that it receives undivided focus for its development and growth - that is the objective of the Bill.



Underdevelopment is a function of two things. It is either you don’t have oil and gas deposits or you have not exploited them, and the latter is true in South Africa. We are beginning to bump into the deposits of gas more and less on oil. Our view is that if we want to grow that sector to its full scale so that it can be optimal, we need to separate it and dedicate resources to it and dedicate people to work on it then it will contribute to the performance of the economy. In our view petroleum is a catalyst for economic growth and development.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thanks House, Chairperson. The Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill was passed by the Fourth Parliament. The Fifth Parliament finished before the President could sign it into law.

When you were in Australia you are the one who withdrew it. You actually announced that the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill must be withdrawn and the Minister of Energy that time, Jeff Radebe, did not even know that there is such a decision because he contradicted you publicly. Thereafter, there was an announcement of Total’s investment in Mosel Bay. Aren’t you being a committee that manages the common affairs of



the bourgeoisies by being under the control of Total which says that it cannot continue with the investment if section 86 of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill continues? Basically, it wa saying that in the new discoveries of petroleum projects the state should have free carry shares of about 30%.

Aren’t you a sell-out and just burgeoning to what the bourgeoisies instructs you to do?





running an economy and the policy here [Interjections.] Please, don’t be excited. Please, please, please ...





Siyanicela yekani ukuba nemincili eNdlini, mamelani.





Our relationship with capital is characterised properly when you see it as unit and struggle of the opposite.

Capital is necessary in the economy that we run. When you look at the Chinese model they observed that socialism in its pure form was very good on the human side but stagnated on the economic side hence they invented what



they call socialism with Chinese characteristics where they appreciated the importance of free market and the development of the economy. We are not in a different situation. We are in that situation and we must actually...Extremism, which thinks that capital should be destroyed because it is white and we call it white monopoly capital, is a misguided ideological position and we can’t help you with your confusion. [Laughter.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, the question is simple. Did you withdraw the Bill because of the instruction of Total? Why did you announce it when you were in Australia that the Bill has been withdrawn? Are you a puppet of imperialism?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shivambu, can we continue, please.



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, you must also protect us. If Mqwathi is confused about the whole ideology of the EFF, he must not come here and grandstand because we are going to expose him.



Mr M N NXUMALO: Thank you very much. Hon Minister, I think that most of us in this Chamber will agree that redress is the key in ensuring that we achieve social and economic justice in South Africa. However, in addressing my rights of challenges faced by historically disadvantaged person in particular in a sector which is largely skewed to the minority of our population and acknowledging that corruption is a major factor which does not promote transformation for all. While we welcome the legislative amendments for transformation to be fast- tracked in the petroleum sector, the question is, could the Minister please explain practically how these amendments will safeguard the fact that many, and not few black people who have privilege accessed already, will benefit from these amendments. Thank you.





with mining and why we are taking petroleum out. It is one of the few sectors where there is a mine that is 50% owned by workers. That is transformation. It is in mining where we are on a road to put together a mining champion company that is black owned. We have outgrown the belief



that black business must be R20 million run. We must have a massive black business that run the economy.



In Mpumalanga – for those who stay there – there is a plethora of small companies which are black owned. Young professionals are given space to grow and develop their own mines. I don’t know what barometer have you used to say there is no transformation. Transformation is a process. What confuses many people, including Ndlozi, is that sometimes they believe that black economic empowerment, BEE, is a social programme which must distribute food parcels. Black economic empowerment is about developing black capitalists in a capitalist society, and there will be fewer of them; not many as if it is a social programme - it is not. [Laughter.] We are developing black capitalists who must grow. When black people become rich we must stop being jealousy.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Thank you House Chair. Minister, on a recent oversight visit by the portfolio committee on Mineral Resources and Energy at the various department’s entities we uncovered significant overlaps in the roles, mandates and responsibilities of the Council for



Geosciences, the Petroleum Agency for South Africa, PetroSA and the department itself with regard to the petroleum sector specifically. Given that all these entities have their own boards and their own organisational structures incurring massive costs, will you commit to merging and rationalisation them into a more cost effective structure, and if so, how?





Budget Speech earlier this year we acknowledged that there are a lot of problems in the entities of Energy. We acknowledged that and we told you what we are going to do. But let me remind you because we are now in Parliament. We said one of the problems in those entities is the collapse of governance. We said to you in the portfolio committee that when we correct and regularise governance we will be starting a process of dealing with both operational and financial risk. Now we are finished with the first group, the Central Energy Fund, Cef.



Once you have boards in place and governance is regularised, it is only then that you can start talking about rationalising because you must rationalise



something that is operational. We are in that process. On Friday as we were announcing the energy resource plan, ERP, we also announced the boards of various entities in the Cef group. On Monday we had a meeting with all those boards trying to show them that there is a crisis and there is no governance.



Let me give you this information for free. In all these boards not a single entity has a full time CEO. All are run by acting CEOs. My responsibility is to regularise that space and ensure that we appoint CEOs in all of them and then we begin to talk about strategies. They attempted to come and say I am having a strategy that was developed by half of the board. To me it is equal to covering up. We are going to develop strategies for each entity and then we can talk about rationalising them.



Question 172:




DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): Hon Chair, the total is R68 960,70 million [Interjections and Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Hon Minister you are protected.



DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): May I repeat this?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Yes for emphasis, you can repeat it.




[Applause.] I am sorry; I have never had such money. It was spent on 151 projects, there is a table here indicating those projects. I thank you.



Mr N P MASIPA: Hon House Chair, hon Deputy Minister I think the numbers that you have given there in terms of the number of clients or farmers that were assisted are incorrect. Hon Deputy Minister, it is now planting time and pruning season and soon farmers will be harvesting. There were farmers that were approved by Land Bank before you decided to suspend this blended finance. Before you establish a commission to investigate yourself Minister, I just want to ask you to please tell the farmers and this House as to where the money that you have suspended is. Thank you



DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): Thank you very much hon Chair. Where is the money? It is not the money that is suspended; it is the blended finance model. The department is very busy in recognition of this being the planting season in assisting the farmers. The farmers know that very well. Two weeks ago, we were together with the farmers in the Free State province talking to them about this particular issue. I thank you.



Mr Z M D MANDELA: Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, what measures have been taken in the current financial year to advance the commitment made by His Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa, to transform the agricultural sector through greater participation of black commercial farmers in respect of the greater participation of rural communities, encouraging the black rural youth to pursue commercial farming and also to facilitate the participation of rural women in commercial farming? Thank you.







Zwelivelile! Mntan’omhle! Okokuqala, igunya (mandate) leSebe leZolimo, uHlenahlengiso lwezoMhlaba noPhuhliso lwaMaphandle ...





... is in the main to rekindle the black commercial farmer which was deliberately destroyed by the Natives Land Act of 1913.





Xa ndisondela ncakasana kumbuzo lo, ekuncedisaneni nendlela eya kuloo nto...





... the launch of the District Development Model by the President at Lusikisiki in the O R Tambo District Municipality...





... yenye yendlela ezibalulekileyo, ezikhawulelana kanye nalo mgomo, ngolu hlobo:



UMongameli ekunye norhulumente wakhe ukhethe iindawo ezintathu afuna ukuzisebenzisa njengelinge(pilot) kulo mcimbi. Uqale ngesithili i-O R Tambo. Eyona nto ibangele ukuba kukhethwe i-O R Tambo le, kukuba kusemakhaya kwaye yenye yeendawo ekwaziwayo ngokophando nezinye iindlela ukuba ikati ilele eziko kakhulu, indlala iyagquba, ngoko ke waqala phaya.



Kule veki iphelileyo uye kwakhona wathumela izigidimi zakhe ndingomnye wazo nam kula mhlaba, sadibana namafama. Siye sawaxelela ukuba kukho izigidi zemali ekufunwa ukuncedisana bona ngazo ukuze amafama akuthi athengelwe iitrekta, nezinto zokutyala ukuze bakwazi ukulima. Sithe sisenza loo nto sabe sihamba nazo ezi zityalo nezi zinto sibabonisa ukuba mabangene emasimini basebenze.



Okwesibini, siye sabonisa ukuba kubalulekile ukuba indlu nendlu ibe negadi njengento yokuqala yokulwa indlala.

Enkosi kakhulu.





Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Sihlalo weNdlu, mhlonishwa, siyasithokozela isamba osithulayo sabantu abahlomulile



kwezokuthuthukiswa kwezolimo. Umangabe umuntu elandela engaphandle, mhlonishwa Sekela Ngqongqoshe, akusibona bonke abaphumelelayo ngenxa yezintselela ezithile abahlangabezana nazo.



Mhlawumbe-ke kulesi sisamba osinikezile, enanini lalabo abahlomulile kuso, bangaki phakathi kwabo abathe basebenza ngempumelelo bangene emkhakheni wezolimo bakhiqiza ngempumelelo? Bangaki ababo abadodobale endleleni ukuya phambili? Futhi yini umnyango oyihlelayo ukuya phambili ukubalekelela ukuthi-ke ekudodabaleni kwabo basuke baye phambili nabo? Ngiyathokoza.






Mntwan’egazi. Olu ncedo silunikayo baninzi abantu abafumeneyo kulo. Ndisitsho nje lo nto ayithethi ukuba akukho ngxaki sidibana nazo endleleni. Zininzi kakhulu ezo ngxaki, ezinye zezo ngxaki ziphaya ebantwini bakuthi, ezinye zazo zilapha phakathi kwisebe nakumagosa ethu.

Enye yezinto ezibalulekileyo esiqonda ukuba sifuna ukuyiqinisa kakhulu kukuba sikwazi ukuyilandela imali xa



siyifakile. Yiyo le nto sifune abantu abanezidanga kwezolimo abangaphangeliyo kuMzantsi Afrika wonke ukuze bakwazi ukuqinisekisa oko. Kodwa ke ndicela undixolele Bawo, kule ndawo yokuba uthina na umyinge ekhulwini.

Ndingakwazi ukuwuphendula lo mbuzo ngokulandelisa impendulo ebhaliweyo ukuze ndingayiqhathi le Ndlu. Ndiyabulela.



Mr M K MONTWEDI: Hon House Chair, thank you. The programme on the commercialisation of black farmers was announced by the former President, the former delinquent in 2014. Three years later, funds for the programme were appropriated by the current President. In our committee meetings Minister, in your presence, your department has said that they are yet to finalise the framework for commercialisation and yet you are giving a response in Parliament today and said you have spent around

R68 million on that programme. Did you spend the money before the framework for the programme was finalised or you were just giving those figures for the sake of answering a question posed to you? If so, how did you go about selecting beneficiaries because, I believe that the



framework would also speak to how beneficiaries on that programme are going to be selected? Thank you.











...the commercialisation of black farmers...





... imisiwe kwaye kukho into eyilindileyo.





The commercialisation of black farmers is an ongoing process. It has started, it is continuing as we speak.





Ngela xesha sithetha ngale nto kwakusithiwa...






... strengthening the relative rights of people working the land, popularly known as 50/50.





Le yayiyinkqubo ethatha umsebenzi wasefama imenze umfana ngokunokwakhe.





If that is not commercialisation, strengthening them to be powerful then maybe I do not understand what commercialisation is. It is a process...





... eqhubekayo ngoku, iyaqhubeka ayimiswanga. Yinto eqhubekayo ngoku. Ndiyabulela.



Question 155:


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chair, the question is as follows: Whether certain persons contributed to the National Treasury Economic Policy Paper, not titled, entitled “Economic Transformation Inclusive Growth and Competiveness towards an economic strategy for South Africa” if so what was their role? Then the names



submitted for these certain persons, are those of Professors; Ricardo Hausmann and Robert Lawrence from Harvard University, hon Shivambu. I think you forgot to add Professor Dani Rodrik. The question is; have they contributed towards the paper? The answer depends how you define contribute because, you can contribute in various ways. You can contribute by drafting a paragraph or adding a coma and so on, or could contribute by entering into a debate and a conversation that enriches the thought process. Others could contribute by paying for the venue of a meeting or something like that. Now, in this instance I think what we are getting at, since I know you from the youth league days, what we are getting at, is a view that the paper was written by Harvard University Professors, which is false. Now, if we have time I wanted to read the people who participated at the three colloquium that we organised at the South African Reserve Bank, which colloquium may have contributed the ideas process or may not, but I think they probably contributed to enrich the thought process.



There only three Harvard professors, the rest are South African professors, some of them are from your university



at University of the Witwatersrand, from Stellenbosch University, University of Free State and others, while some were private sector economists, government economists, South African Reserve Bank economists, farmers for example from ZZ2 and so on. So, yes ideas were contributed because the thought processes are not static.



I think there is some kind of intellectual inferiority because Harvard University is therefore, it is only the Harvard University that contributed, and yet these other South African academics who contributed but because you are scared of the Harvard University professors, you uplift them higher than the others. The fact of the matter is that there were other professors as well including some who might have taught you and you didn’t pick up what they taught you. Thank you very much.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chairperson, certainly there is no professor who taught me, who contributed to the neoliberal perspective that we released and the context of why we are asking the question is because Ricardo Hausmann is an associate professor, is an associate for



the Centre for International Development in Harvard University and the key funders of the CID is Investec asset management, Standard Bank, is George Soros Open Foundations. Some of the ideas that are contained in that perspective are in the Investec Economic policy perspectives. So basically Investec takes its perspective about the restructuring of Eskom, feeds the Harvard University professors, then they come and feed you, then you call that expert advice. In this context Investec stands to benefit out the whole unbundling of Eskom as is proposed here. So the question we are asking is: Aren’t you being again like Minister Gwede, being a puppet of the capitalist establishment that is imposing its views through so called intellectualism because there is through nothing intellectual about the perspective, is just neoliberal driven that has been repeated many times, that we privatise, we let the state not to participate in everything else and therefore is going to be growth.



That is the context out it to say that you are now checking domestic capitalist perspective on how the economy must be restructured and then you back those perspectives as if it’s some expert advice from Harvard



University whilst it’s not. That is context within which we are asking this question.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I know that we all have different ideological positions and so if you want your ideological position to govern, you first have to win elections. You can’t expect the EFF ideological position to be that of the ANC slot. So, you have to win elections first, maybe manage Johannesburg better [Applause.] Now, I indicated to you that the three Harvard University professors were only three amongst many, who attended, but you are hung up about Harvard University because of your intellectual inferiority to Harvard University, yes, because why you are not worried about these other South African professors. Three people out of over 50 professors are the problem to you. The issue about who funds who is not the issue that you ask me. For example do I ask who funds the EFF’s writing skills? I don’t ask you that question because it’s your business, whether is the Venda Building Construction, VBS, or who else [Laughter.] I don’t ask that question. Whether you have repaid the VBS money or not, I haven’t asked you that question, until maybe I release the forensic report, then



you will be in trouble. So focus on the many people who participated in the conversation and not pick up on Professor Hausmann alone. Thank you very much.



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: House Chair, hon Minister the Economic Paper in question is most certainly welcomed and a move to the right direction for our country, the strategies outlined there are very clear, simple and all that is needed from the all stakeholders to implement them to the latter, then the question is: How does the Minister intend to meet yet the opposition to his plan in particular how to intent to rally support with ANC alliance partners who have come out against this plan but, who in this regard should be at the forefront in driving transformation, employment and the labour sector.



For example during the era of President of Thabo Mbeki which the Growth, Employment, and Redistribution Strategy, GEAR, when the labour union took it to street, that was the end of that strategy. Are we going see the same with this one? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, the rallying of support for this work is very important. As you know, policy at the end of the day is politics, you can’t separate the two.

Politics has to provide the leadership, so we have been involved in conversations with the leadership of the ANC, business leadership and all other leadership, that’s relevant to rallying the support for this work. More certainly we have had conversations with National Executive Committee of the ANC, for almost the whole day. The economic transformation committee of the ANC has discussed these issues but, I suppose at the end of the day, the ANC has to make a decision of what to do about this. Being at the head of the alliance, I am sure the leadership of the ANC here will be able to carry the necessary processes but, time is of the essence and some things can’t wait, we have to proceed. Let me give an example, we say that there are two sectors of the economy which could be labour absorptive; agriculture which we have just discussed, with the millions the Minister was reading, congratulations Minister, and tourism.



Now, take tourism and we have this discussion before, where we said that tourism is a low hanging fruit and



therefore we should move with speed to support tourism in the job creation endeavour and the speed with which we issue visas to tourist who want visit our shores, it’s important and the Minister of the Department of Home Affairs is becoming a big ally of mine, in making sure that we get the visas sorted out and get rid of all these abridged birth certificates for children and so on. He is already moved ahead, so we are not waiting for some future dates to start the implementation, it is progress in action. I am very pleased that we are making progress and take the issues on the networked industries, if there is transport, communications and so on. Work is going ahead there, the issue of spectrum, hopefully members from the EFF know spectrum is [Laughter.] So that is happening and in the process getting the momentum going. So I thank you very much for your question, the opportunity to elaborate a bit and educate some members in red.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: No, Chair I wanted to confirm that we are not having conceptual confusion, we understand spectrum allocation, particularly the rolling out of the coming up of the 5G generation. It’s very easy but we are from



University of Harvard, we don’t have to outsource our thinking to Harvard.



Mr I K MOROLONG: House Chairperson, hon Minister in the spirit of participatory democracy which is enshrined both in the Constitution and in the Freedom Charter, on 27 August 2019 the Ministry of Finance called on the members of the public to make comments on a paper titled: Economic Transformation Inclusive Growth and Competitiveness toward an economic strategy for South Africa. Can the Minister enlighten the South African public as to how have contribution strengthen this economic paper? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very for that question. The answer to your question is that there were over 800 submissions, responding to the request we had made to the public. Now the basic approach that we took was that those contributions which are internally consistent with the direction of the paper will be incorporated, but those which were internally inconsistent would be acknowledged, it was nice but not helpful. So, we are in the process now of incorporating



that which is internally consistent. Some of them very, very useful comments but, if a comment for example says; my contribution is that this paper is neoliberal, George Soros and so on, that is internally inconsistent and therefore not helpful [Laughter.] Or somebody says the macroeconomic policy that must underpin this paper must be the abolishment of inflation targeting, that is internally inconsistent and therefore would not be taken into account.



So we appreciate those who have made contributions which are internally consistent with the paper, because they strengthen the paper, we very much appreciate that. Thank very much.



Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Minister, thank you I agree, I think this, as a general rule in South Africa, our position should be that the quality of contributions should be more important that the identity of the contributors and I am glad that you agree with that position. Now, one of the people who did contribute is actually the hon Kruger from the DA, who’s Private Member’s Bill, the Red Tape Production Bill is actually listed as one of things that



needs to be implemented in your paper and, which we obviously support. That contribution is internally consistent with the rest of the paper. So my question very simply is: When will that Bill, which was last year voted down by the ANC but which we are happy to reintroduce at a moment’s notice, when we reintroduce it and get it to this House as quickly as possible?



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I think you should take advantage of the questions to the Deputy President maybe next week, to ask that question because I don’t think I am at liberty to do that but, he will. We are making progress in that direction, I think, but I am not quite sure we are making direction towards the Private Member’s Bill or making direction towards an Executive Bill, I think towards more to an Executive Bill, but the Deputy President I am sure will deal with the question. Maybe we should avoid standing on rooftops and claiming that this party made that contribution or the other, it might not be helpful at all. So let’s not stand on any rooftop, let’s just do the work that needs to be done. Thank you very much.



Question 187:




question relates to the SABC’s capacity to comply with the outstanding preconditions from National Treasury, including the sustainability thereof. In our reply, as the department, we are saying that the outstanding preconditions relate to separate reporting in terms of public commercial services and public broadcasting services, as well as the identification of noncore assets and the public-private partnerships, PPP.



So, the SABC has developed a turnaround strategy with the assistance of the Government Technical Advisory Centre, GTAC, which incorporates a variety of initiatives that will be implemented, in order to address all the governance, operational and financial inefficiencies within the organisation.



In order to ensure that the R2,1 billion allocated to the SABC is utilised for its intended purposes, the SABC’s executives will provide the departmental task team with monthly progress reports, with effect from November 2019 on the implementation of the turnaround strategy.



In this process, the SABC will also be required to report on the progress made in addressing the concerns of government with regard to three outstanding preconditions that must be fully complied with by March 2020.



So government is satisfied that the SABC has fully complied, and based on some of those things that I have related to before, the public broadcaster has demonstrated commitment to enhance supply chain management processes, to improve and implement all its turnaround strategies accordingly, but also to deal with issues of consequence management and fully capacitate the organisation with the required skills and competencies.



In addition, the department has also developed a plan to pursue policy and regulatory changes to address market failures that maybe seen as negatively affecting the public broadcaster. So, we are in a way working towards the regulatory framework that needs to be addressed, which can also address the issues that the public broadcaster is concerned with. So far, we are satisfied. Thank you.



Mr B M MANELI: House Chair, Deputy Minister, the comprehensive response you have given does give assurance to South Africans that efforts are being made to get the national broadcaster back on its feet, and South Africans can once again have confidence. However, the issue raised by the SABC a number of times relates to high employee costs. What is the view of the department on reports on high employee costs at the SABC, which may lead to the retrenchment of staff, going forward? I thank you.





the issue of the bloated SABC is not unique to the SABC. We have sat with the board to request a skills audit.

Before we even arrive at section 189, we must deal with the issue of a skills audit. We must look at options of reskilling and upskilling and look at other ways of how we can assist employees, so that we don’t take retrenchment as the first option.



So, the SABC is looking at the totality of all those things so that, at the end, we are able to respond accordingly. The issue of retrenchment is something that



is unavoidable but it has to be informed by realities that the SABC will arrive at. Thank you.



Mr S N SWART: House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, arising from your response, the ACDP played a key role in the SABC inquiry in the Fifth Parliament. We note your progress report on the conditions for the R2,1 billion bailout, particularly on the monthly progress reports as well as the supply chain management and we welcome those. Parliament will also be exercising oversight in that regard. However, one of the areas of concern is the payment of royalties to musicians and others who have rendered services to the SABC. Whilst this is not directly arising from your response, would you care to look into this issue because we understand that the SABC collects the royalties and holds them and it is not being paid to the musicians? Is that an issue that you would look into because clearly many of the musicians are struggling in the economic environment? Thank you.





Swart, thank you for the contribution that you made as a member of the committee. The payment of royalties is a



thorny issue. We have been engaging the Independent Music Performing Rights Association, Impra, and the South African Music Performing Rights Association, Sampra, and all other organisations, not only us, as the Department of Communications, but together with the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture. There was even an Interministerial Committee before my time that was led by hon Buti Manamela, the current Deputy Minister of Higher Education. We have picked up on all those things, and not only does it concern our normal SABC radio stations, it also affects Impra, Sampra and all other organisations, even community radios.



So, we want to develop a comprehensive approach to respond to some of those and it is an issue that the Ministry of Arts and Culture is leading, in this respect. Thank you.



Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The last time I checked you were not hon Ndlozi. [Interjections.]



Mr L G MOKOENA: I am explaining to you. My name is Fana Mokoena. I will stand in for hon Ndlozi. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): It has to be arranged with the Table. [Interjections.]



Mr L G MOKOENA: We apologise profusely.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will give you a chance next time. [Interjections.]



Mr L G MOKOENA: Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, the turnaround strategy of the SABC was crafted by the Department of Finance, with the help of GTAC, which is not an expert in anything. In fact, the Department of Communications seems to run to Finance for anything that has to do with that department. The department has misdiagnosed the problem at the SABC. One of the conditions that the SABC has not been able to meet is the issue of selling off of assets, which the SABC itself has admitted that they cannot sell off, because it would then impact on their competitive edge. The competitive edge of the SABC, as the industry agrees, lies in its ability to



control the platforms on which it broadcasts its content and that has to do with digital migration. When is the department going to stand up against the Department of Finance on the issue of digital migration and on these conditions that it imposes on the SABC, so that the SABC can have its competitive edge and succeed?





to put it categorically that the turnaround strategy was developed by the SABC itself. The fact that the SABC developed that turnaround strategy and Treasury got involved was because they needed R3,3 billion and Treasury wanted to know whether, with the turnaround strategy and with what the SABC wants, there will be value for money, going forward.



So, firstly, Treasury, by all means, will be involved because we need to protect the taxpayers’ money.

Secondly, on the issue that the SABC was unable to deal with selling off assets and other related things, remember, I said when I presented that there were three preconditions. One speaks to public broadcasting services

– the current radio stations like Ukhozi, Thobela,



everything. SABC needed to separate how they report on the commercial aspect and the public aspect. The commercial aspect is the radio stations like Five FM, Metro and others.



So, Treasury told us not to club them together. We have the public mandate and we have the commercial mandate. They said that we must see if the commercial aspect of the SABC is making money.



The same applies to noncore assets. Noncore assets will include land that the SABC owns and it will include all other things like TV channels and radio broadcasting opportunities that might not be making money to the SABC. So, the SABC has to look at those to decide where it can do PPPs, where it can do a lease and where it can do build, operate and transfer. So, those are the things that the SABC is doing and falls under the preconditions.



The issue of digital migration is something that will also assist and enhance the SABC to explore other platforms, other than the regular platforms of radio and TV that are currently operating, and the SABC will be



able to play in the digital space. That is what the SABC is preparing for now to also be competitive. Thank you.



Ms Z MAJOZI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, we welcome your intervention, as the Department of Communications in making sure that the SABC follows all the preconditions that are left out. However, as the SABC now wants to increase the TV licences of poor South Africans who are subjected to air shows and programmes of decades ago, what is the department’s take on this one, especially with the economy that is facing South Africa right now?





as South Africans, we also have to take the issue of the survival of the public broadcaster very seriously. For years, the SABC has not been increasing its licensces. If you look at all our areas – and I commend people - even in informal settlements, you see that many have migrated on their own. You see satellite dishes. This means that the person has migrated from analog to digital. Thank you to South Africans.



However, we are also saying that it is paid TV. We are offering free-to-air channels and we can give you six to eleven platforms for free. So, assist the SABC by paying. By paying the licences, we can bring new content into the SABC, so that we don’t bring Mopheme and we don’t repeat other dramas. We can bring young people into the creative industry to bring new content. [Interjections.] So, payment of licences will be critical.



Question 182:




Chairperson. Well, the Department of Employment and Labour acknowledges the wealth and the contribution by the various stakeholders in trying to find solutions to youth employment and in addressing the problem of those not in education employment or training, we call them the need. Our plans are based on the observations and recommendations made in the National Youth Policy, the Youth Employment Accord, the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, report and other studies and policy recommendations.



As we reorganised the department in line with the new mandate, we are building on the existing policies and work closely with other departments, the youth sectors institutions of learning, the nongovernmental organisations and international communiqué and the private sector in efforts which are aimed at improving of the education and training opportunities to close the skills gap and to facilitate the transition between school-leaving and first employment.



We also refer work seekers with low skills levels after assessing them to the public employment services and to the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology, sector education and training authorities, Setas, Technical and Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges and other private institutions.



We are also supporting some of these initiatives through the Labour Activation Programme, which is run by the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, and the Compensation Fund and connecting the young people with employment opportunities through other free work seekers recruitment placement through what we call the public employment



services youth centres and the private employment services career centres, career counselling, employment schemes work-readiness promotion programmes and providing young people with the work experience through learnerships, apprenticeships and internships.



We are also increasing the number of young people employed in the public youth programmes such as the known Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, the National Youth Service Programme, Community Works Programme, the National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, the youth brigade in the Green, focused on Working on Fire and other environmental programmes, Health brigade, Literacy brigade and Maintenance brigade.



We are also empowering the youth, women and people with disabilities through the targeted set-asides industries and the public sector. We have about eight factories now in the provinces strictly which are run by the people with disabilities.



So, the promotion of the youth entrepreneurship, youth


co-operatives and SMEs is part of the programme. So, that



is a collaborative effort between the public and the private sector to expand the intake of the young people through these initiatives such as Harambee Youth Employment Accelerator. Gauteng talks about Tshepo

1 Million and other interventions funded under job summit and the Employment Insurance Fund and the Compensation Act.



We are currently developing of course, the labour migration policy to assist in the regulation of the employment of the foreign nationals and to complete the Immigration Act to guide the review and the conclusion of the bilateral government labour agreement, the skills transfer in case of employment of the needed scare skills. Thank you, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Dr Nkabane? Who is taking the question? Dr Dyantyi is taking the question.



Ms P P DYANTYI: Thank you, hon House Chair. It’s a prophecy; I will follow the rule to become the doctor. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, as you have mentioned that you will build on existing plans and policies to address the



employment that would be designated as not requiring scares skills, when are you anticipating to finalise the development of the labour migration policy that will regulate the employment of foreign nationals and the employment policy, and also, how will you ensure that the existing initiatives and programmes are assessed by rural communities as in most of the cases they are the ones who are left out? Thank you very much.





Migration Policy as per our plans will be completed before the end of the financial year. We are at a stage where we are reviewing the draft document and once we have completed that, we have to send it to the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, where all the social partners will have to comment on that.

Then after that Nedlac process, it will go into Cabinet. Well, our plans and projections are that before the end of the financial year, we should have done that and have come to Parliament.



In terms of the employment policy, we are developing this, maybe in 12 months, we would be having that. But,



we must emphasise one thing, once you talk about the employment policy, as our economy is extending and trade to the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region and even to the continent, we also need an employment policy for the region, not just for South Africa. That’s the reality which we are talking about.



In terms of extending these services to the rural areas, our 126 labour centres, which are helping the young people, we are extending them into the rural areas and we would like to add more so that we have more in the rural areas. Thank you.



Dr M J CARDO: Hon Minister, the Department of Employment and Labour should be trying to make it easier for businesses; particularly small businesses to absorb relatively unskilled workers into productive employment. With that in mind, do you support the proposal put forward in Treasury’s recently released economic strategy document that government should consider full or partial exemptions for small businesses from certain labour regulations? In particular, do you support exempting



small businesses from the extension of bargaining council agreements? Thank you.





processes already in the legislation. For those who want exemptions, they are supposed to apply and state their cases and properly investigated. If their cases are genuine, they can be exempted, but if they are not because they must disclose everything including their finances because some of the employers, they want to hide behind this. We are not taking a rigid approach, but we cannot just pass laws and then do not want to implement them. That’s our approach.



Ms M V MENTE: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the secretarial bargaining councils, they have no mechanisms to detect exploitation of unskilled labour, neither they have monitoring skill in terms of the industries they serve in to check what they do and how many they are.



Secondly, there is no clear law to protect the infant industries in South Africa, which by far, they employ the bulk of unskilled labour. That’s where you can get more



people employed for South Africa. Will your department stop the barbaric actions, in fact, the barbaric bylaws by different municipalities that seek to destroy the infant industries like the hawkers you find in Johannesburg in the town, the old people that are selling chips at schools and everything that are removed by the JMPD and they are removed by law enforcement? Also, do you have any relationship with small businesses to create employment? [Time expired.]



The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: The labour laws are meant to apply to all the employees. However, there are problems in relation to the informal sector. I think the formal sector is properly regulated by the laws. But in the informal sector, there is a problem because some of those employers are not even registered with the various or meeting the various conditions which have been put for them. It’s something which we have to look into. But still, they remain the employers and they must comply.



Like in the previous question, they want to be exempted. We have to exempt them, but we don’t have a special law



to protect them because you can’t regulate each and everything. Thank you.



Ms M D HLENGWA: Madam House Chair, thank you. Hon Minister, in light of shifting labour market an eminent Fourth Industrial Revolution, which will the labour market require new and different skills, I will like to know whether your department has plan to ensure that the labour market is adequately supplied with the demand by South African citizens? I thank you.





remember that when we are talking about this Fourth Industrial Revolution, there have been revolutions before. The first one, which was the industrialisation, that was a revolution on its own, which was shifting from the hand to a number of other things, steam power and so on. Then there was also a second revolution, which started talking about the issue of mechanisation and so on and so on. They talked about the third revolution. So, this shift is always going to be there. But what is important is, we need to talk about the upskilling, the



retraining and the training of the workers. What we must accept is that we can’t stop the technological changes.



So, today you are talking about the Fourth Industrial Revolution, which is linked to digitisation, automation, you can mention all the other things. But the reality is, we will have to prepare the workers. I think the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy was talking about a just transition. As long as we ensure that that revolution is also human centred, we are able to skill our people so that they are able to participate into that.



We must accept that we have to invest in our people. For now, you know that the Minister of Finance will tell you that our unemployment is mainly structural linked to the issue of the skills, which means; we have to double our efforts in terms of skilling the people, giving them the basic skills, but also giving them the modern skills to face the challenges of the new technologies and so on.

Thank you.



Question 179:





FISHERIES: Hon Modise, the department is in the process of rolling out a small-scale fisheries sector programme whereby a total of over 10 000 individuals from traditional fishing communities along the coastline of South Africa are currently being granted access to marine resources for commercial and food security purposes through a cooperative model.



This right of access is for duration of 15 years. The details of this programme are as follows; in 2018 the department allocated the first 15 years small-scale fishing rights to two co-ops in the Northern Cape. On 19 October 2019, I handed over 15-year fishing rights to seven small-scale co-operatives in the Ugu District Municipality of KwaZulu-Natal with 467 declared small- scale fisherpeople who stand to benefit directly from the access to marine resources for commercial and food security purposes. This handover of fishing rights marks the beginning of small-scale rights allocations in KwaZulu-Natal that will see fishing rights granted to over 36 co-operatives involving 2 184 individual fisherpeople.



Next month in the Eastern Cape, small-scale fishing co- operatives will be granted small-scale rights. There are

75 cooperatives involved involving 5 335 individuals. In the Western Cape, small-scale fishing cooperatives have been registered with the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission and they will be assisted to receive their fishing rights by December 2019.



With the introduction of this small-scale fisheries sector, the department will provide the necessary support to these fishing cooperatives as well as allocating fishing rights this support includes ensuring that the

co-operatives are sustainable and looking for ways to improve the value chain and access to markets. Thank you very much.



Ms M MODISE: House Chair, is the Minister satisfied with the progress made so far? If not, what are the plans to accelerate the progress made pertaining to the transformation of the sector? And also, how will the department assist those indigenous communities living along the oceans to have access to the sector so that they are able to sustain their livelihoods? Thank you.





FISHERIES: These rights that I have documented that we are in the process of issuing are intended for indigenous communities that live along with the coastal sector.

Where we think we still have a problem with regard to transformation in the fisheries sector is when we look at the commercial fishing rights.



And you would know that we have a process which is underway at the moment to issue licences for 12 fisheries that will conclude in 2021, those are commercial fisheries and obviously one of the criteria is going to be to support new entrants and to make sure that we continue with the transformation of the sector.

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Point of Order!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order hon Ndlozi?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, on a point of order: The Minister is speaking to us with an earphone. Is she being told answers from the interpretation room?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member! Hon member No! [Interjections.]



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Why when she is speaking she has a thing here? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member that is not a point of order, I am going to cut you off.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Is there a different Minister in those rooms there? Huh?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Singh, it is your time now.



Mr N SINGH: My earphones are off ... [Interjections.] hon Minister, thank you very much for being in KwaZulu-Natal last week, an area where I reside, and handing over those fishing rights to the indigenous community.



Now, not even 10 nautical miles north of there, hon Minister, our community fishermen, subsistence fishermen who have been fishing for decades but there is a move to



prevent these people from fishing along this coast for no scientific reasons other than people who have had the privilege of building expensive cottages on the beach in the 80s and 60s and before 1994 I think are preventing people from coming and fishing in front of their homes.



So, will you give this House an assurance that if there is a ban on fishing or any restriction it will be based purely on scientific reasons and not on these reasons which are racially-based? Thank you.





FISHERIES: Hon Singh, my understanding is that beaches in this country can not be privatised by individual property owners. It is also my understanding that only the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries can issue fishing rights.



So, if you have particular individuals who are taking over this function from us, please supply me with their names, we will deal with them.



Mr J R B LORIMER: Chair, we are conscious of the needs of small-scale fishermen and we trust that the Minister will not address these by sacrificing resources in the longer term.



In this regard, West Coast Rock Lobster is an important species for small-scale fishermen and this year’s catch has been pegged at last year’s levels.



Will the Minister make available the recommendations of her scientific working group that set this limit so that the justification for the latest total allowable catch, TAC, can be scrutinised? And if she is not going to do that, please, could she tell us why not?





FISHERIES: Hon Lorimer, you are a member of the portfolio committee; you have the right to an oversight on anything that the department does. So, I can not understand why you think you would be prevented.



Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, Minister, a quota allocation is the only access to the first stage of the fishing



value chain. Small-scale fishers like in Hermanus are given an allocation of 200kg of abalone for a season. Abalone internationally costs R800 per kilo.



But a Chinese-owned processing plant in Hermanus pays these small-scale fishers R500 per kilo because they have got the facility to clean and to process the abalone.



So, what is the department doing to assist these small- scale fishers to participate in other phases or stages of the value chain so that they can actually benefit from that 200kg of abalone they catch?



And these Chinese people, they have better access to markets than your department, in fact, your department’s officials used to sell the abalone that they took from the poachers to these processing companies.





FISHERIES: Thank you very much hon Paulsen, one of the issues that we have to address if we are going to make a meaningful difference to these communities is the issue of access to markets and in particular we have to take



out the middle people that in many instances are nothing better than mashonisas [loan sharks] and are exploiting these fisher people and exploiting their poverty and locking them in endless cycles of debt.



We already have an app that has been developed by a nongovernmental organisation that aims to link up fisherpeople directly with markets, with restaurants and with other people who would want to purchase their products. We are in the process of exploring that option because we think it is one way in which these small fishing communities can get a better price for their goods. But, you are absolutely correct that if we do not focus on the issue of market access then in fact, all we are doing is consigning these people – even if they have rights – to perpetual poverty.



Question 166:




Chairperson, the country’s reserves were not impacted by the drone strikes in the facilities in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The limited output of crude oil in Saudi Arabia as a result of the drone strike also has no impact



on the grades and qualities of strategic stock that South Africa maintains, since the country only stock piles grades from Nigeria and Iraq. Therefore, the status of the republic strategic fuel reserves remains the same as pre drone strikes on the oil facilities in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. So it has no impact at all. Thank you.



Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chairperson, I find it very interesting Minister that you say the reserves are Nigeria and Iraq when 44% of our oil are crude oil imports in South Africa come from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.



The 1996 Energy White Paper mandates the Strategic Fuel Fund, SFF, must hold 90 days supply of fuel stock for South Africa’s refineries, which is in line with global standards. Then there was a Draft Strategic Fuel Stocks Policy which has been under discussion 2013 and that suggest that there should be a 60day stock holding. Then there is a ministerial directive that says no, we only need a 10.3milion barrel which is about 18days cover.



Minister, the question is this, given that former Minister Joemat-Pettersson sold off our strategic reserve and it is currently sitting in the tanks somewhere and I am well aware of that. But we can’t touch it because it is a subject of a court case. So nobody knows who actually owns that. Given that, that is the case, what will you do in the event of an emergency requiring the release of the strategic fuel reserve?





question was not about crude oil supply to South Africa. Your question was about strategic stock. And we are saying to you we only stockpile grades from Nigeria and Iraq, others are in the sector. So that means the strategic stocks are from the remaining 56% of oil supply. I thought you would understand that if you say Saudi Arabia supplies 44%, it doesn’t supply 44% of strategic stock, it supplies 44% of crude oil to South Africa. But on stock piling, we keep the oil from Nigeria and Iraq. So it has no effect.



I don’t think I should answer you on the other strategic pile – the rotation stock that we are resolving. We will



bring the report to you once we have resolved that matter. It is not the question today.



Mr S LUZIPHO: Chairperson, firstly...





... sithi aba tat’uMqwathi nceda usigade ukuze angasiphindi uNongqawuse aba bangaphesheya bafuna ukusibuyisela kuye. [Kwahlekwa.]





The geopolitical balance of forces appears to be unstable and much of the instability in the world is around the giant energy producing nations. What is the government doing to ensure that the South African economy has security of supply of fuel in order to protect our people from the ebbs and flows of global energy markets? Thank you very much.





correct, hon Luzipho that the powerful nations use all of us as pawns in a chessboard. Our starting point and line of defence is to ensure that we look after the interest



and needs of our country. Everything else must follow. The biggest mistake we can do is to comply and relegate a national interest and needs to the back banner. When you do that we will diversify sources of energy to South Africa. We get oil from Nigeria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Angola so that we don’t get stuck at the slightest provocation by any nation. That is where we are and we will maintain that policy and hopeful that one day we will discover our own oil reserves as the exploration is happening.



Mr M N NXUMALO: House Chair, hon Minister, in light of the unfortunate events with regards to the xenophobic and afrophobic attacks in our country ... One of our crude oil partners which is Nigeria has any threat ever been made against the South African government by Nigeria in stopping its export of crude oil to our country?





notice that since what you describe as xenophobic or afrophobic – that needs a debate on its own to give a definition to that conflict. It needs its own definition in the sense that at the height of it twelve people died,



only two were non South Africans and 10 were South Africans. That means if it was a xenophobic attack, it was a xenophobic attack against ourselves in the main. So the definition of that incident would need to be redefined properly so that we don’t get confused by this issue.



However, we took time to send an envoy to Nigeria which was immediately followed by the state visit by the President of Nigeria. Meaning that we are serious about our relationship. We are resisting the possibility of our relation being derailed by incidents. Because in the continent they will be many incidents. If we want to be excited, we can destroy our relationship. So our relationship with Nigeria is on a firm footing.



Ms M V MENTE: Hon Minister, you earlier on indicated that there is a report with regard to the stockpile which was sold irregular. I want to check with you, do we have a proclamation number of the Special Investigative Unity, SIU, with regard to that or do we have an SAPS case number? Because, such sales have got an element of



thieving. Do we know who did it? Did we lose anything and how are we recovering it?





detailed report and we have a sense of who is involved. But when you run with a process of that nature what you avoid all the time is to put the cart before the horse. You follow steps painstakingly, step by step and you see

... [Interjections.]





... uyaphendulwa, uyakhwaza, ingxaki ke leyo, uyaphendulwa, uyakhwaza. Ufuna wenziwe ntoni ke ngoku? [Kwahlekwa.]





We are following each step of the process in that regard. That is why I can confirm to you that there is a report. The case has been reported to the police. The SIU has taken an interest on it. But as we go through the process in due course we will report to Parliament. We don’t just take unprocessed reports to Parliament before we understand why we have to bring them here, what is it and



what are the outcomes and what are the expectations? We have that process and the report is there.



Ms M S KHAWULA: Where is the case number?





the case number...





... ufuna ukuya emapoliseni ngoku?



Question 154:




with the price of electricity from renewable company, the starting point cannot be cancellation of contracts. That is a wrong starting point. But we are negotiating with suppliers of energy from renewable companies and at the same time, we are talking to coal producers to reduce the prices of supply to Eskom.



The reason to reduce those prices is because we did some investigations and we discovered that some of the coal producers make 50, 70 or 100% profits. Therefore, our aim



is not to kill businesses, but we want people to make reasonable profit and get returns from their investments. So in this regard, we are busy with that process and we are not negotiating cancelation. Instead, we are negotiating the adjustment of the prices downwards.



Therefore, we are talking to Eskom and National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, to actually give us what we call administered prices by reducing the actual price of Eskom to the areas of industrialisation in the economy.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shivambu will take care of the follow up question.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, I notice that most of the DA members are on their earphones listening to the resignation of Mmusi Maimane, but let’s deal with this question. [Laughter.] Now Minister, we agree that at the centre of Eskom’s crisis it’s these power purchase agreement: Firstly, you can’t underestimate the negative impact it is costing on the financial stability of Eskom, and what we raised yesterday about the coal prices.



Okay, in terms of coal prices, you say that you are negotiating. Why don’t you just give an instruction that all the coal prices must be consistent with what Nersa has determined? Why would you want to take forever because you are just delaying the crisis? If it’s going to take the approach that you are taking, it is not going to help you anyhow in terms of what should effectively happen.



So, the issue is: Why don’t you just comply with the Nersa instructions in terms of coal, and then deal with the independent negotiation of power purchase agreements by Eskom, because Eskom is not involved now with these IPPs. Someone else imposes those contracts on Eskom. This becomes entirely problematic and it causes huge chaos in terms of its financial stability.



Can’t we take a different approach in terms of how we stabilising Eskom instead of throwing money like we did yesterday through that nonsensical Special Appropriation Bill?





Shivambu, for better part of my life I was an activist opposing a government. Now, when you are in an opposition and opposing a government, you have all the ready answers because you take no responsibility. Now, in our case, we understand that we can’t just give instructions in a constitutional democracy.



You need to talk to those producers because Eskom procured coal and signed contracts. Therefore, what we are intervening at is to say that the contracts are too costly for Eskom. Can we have a sense of saying as it was up to the early 90s that, the price of coal for domestic was indexed, and export prices were also indexed, and at that time, those prices were never the same?



Therefore, we say that the same practice can be reintroduced. But if you want stability, you do that by engaging the coal producers. The same applies to Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, windows 1, 2 and 3. Again, there was a risk taken to introduce the technology. That is what our argument is about, that risk has been subsidised by the state.



Therefore, let’s talk to one another and agree on reducing it, so that there is stability in Eskom. We can then talk of administered prices for customers who are intensive consumers of electricity. We are only the strange country that go out there and ask people to consume less of the product that we are producing. It only happens with Eskom, and when there is a decline in demand, we think that it’s a positive development and it’s not.



Decline in demand of electricity is a sign of the industrialisation. So, we are dealing with that with an open mind, and we are appreciating of the fact that we are not dictatorial; we are managing an economy of the country.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Through you Chairperson, Minister, the IRP that you promulgated on Friday, both the correct and the incorrect versions, identify renewable energy as the least cost option, and the quickest to bring online in the short term. However, in your briefing on Friday you said that you have opted for a low-cost option, taking into account other factors.



But economic estimates place a costing South Africa more than R100 billion more than the least-cost option. So, the low-cost option that you are proposing is

R100 billion more for South Africa than the least-cost option. Will you inform this House why you are not in favour of the cheapest and quickest solution to our electricity crisis?





reason is that, I’m not a lobbyist for any technology ... [Interjections.] There you are. I’m not a lobbyist for any technology. That’s the first reason. The second one is my understanding of cost-effectiveness is not meaning literally cheap. It means cost-effectiveness factors in all the other factors and times.



That’s why when you talk about, for an example, nuclear; many of the lobbyists for other alternative technologies will always say that nuclear is expensive. You have to remind them that nuclear is expensive at commissioning and decommissioning. When it is operational, it is efficient, it is effective and it is low-cost. So, we have published the IRP which opens up spaces for the



entrepreneurs and everybody who wants to play in that space in whatever technology is there.



We have two primary preoccupations. The first one is sustainable and secured supply of energy to the country, and the second one is that we must comply with our commitment to the Paris Agreement.



Ms V T MALINGA: Through you hon House chair, hon Minister, considering that the cost of renewable energy has declined dramatically in the last decade, and that renewables form a key element of the nongrid connections to rural areas. What is the government’s long-term strategy to procure renewable energy in order to ultimately lower the price of electricity and achieve the National Development Plan, NDP, target of full electrification by 2030? Thank you.





is giving us a lesson to lift our eyes to the mountains. Now, that approach doesn’t work in managing the economy. You don’t swing like a pendulum because you are anticipating a lower price into the future. Window 1, 2



and 3 are very much expensive, and that is the reality we are dealing with.



Window 4 is kicking in very reasonable 108 Photovoltaic, PV, 87c wind and somebody wanted us to say we declare that on a certain date there will be window 5. I always tell them that, actually, there will be window 20. We will go through all these windows until we reach window

20 or window 30.



But the reality of the matter is that, in doing so, we must be systematic and follow the logic of security of energy for the country, and that’s where we are.



Mr M N NXUMALO: Through you House Chair, hon Minister, regarding Eskom’s inability to sufficiently supply continuous electricity over the past decade, I would like to ask you whether government has a plan to stimulate and deregulate the energy sector to allow the independent power producers, IPPs, entrances in order to promote stability, competition and spread the risk of power outrages regarding energy supply in South Africa? Thank you very much.





you’ll think that everybody notices things, but it’s not like that. Generation of electricity in South Africa is diversified; it’s no longer a monopoly of Eskom. It is diversified, and our assumption is that, that will continue into the future.



That’s why you need to look at the numbers that are provided for in the IRP. We appreciate the fact that it’s going to grow faster than other sources. The IRP says so. Therefore, just take time to read the IRP so that you can understand that actually, renewables have been given the biggest allocation in terms of growth, though by 2030 coal will still be a dominant source of energy.



We have 16 power stations and we are not going to switch them. I don’t subscribe to the principle that we must switch all coal power stations and bring fresh air in darkness, I don’t subscribe to that. We should actually work on the supply and manage the transition. That is what I believe in.



Question 185:





DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): Hon Chair, thank you for the question, the objective of the Communal Property Association Act of 1996 is to enable communities to form juristic persons in order to acquire, hold and manage the property on a basis agreed to by members of a community in terms of a written Constitution. Whilst economic viability of these entities is essential and desirable, the ultimate measure is whether these entities manage their affairs, including assets in accordance with the will of their members.



Current mechanisms put in place to ensure sustainability and economic viability. Some CPAs exercise control over substantial assets, the extent to which the exercise good corporate governance and maintain institutional stability turn to have positive results on their economic performance. The department therefore places special focus on the training of executives of CPAs in good corporate governance. CPAs also have been encouraged to get together at district level, to establish district forums that facilitate learning. This approach has had its limitations and is therefore under review at the



moment. CPAs that controls substantial resources have had an unfortunate trend of massive conflict amongst members and sometimes between members and their leaders.



The department provides specialist mediation services to help CPA members find one another and work together. A lot of resources are therefore invested in this regard. There are instances where either the degree of maladministration and institutional stability, render CPAs unable to perform their functions. This sometimes results in the director-general pursuant to a court order taking over the management of the affairs of a CPA to a degree of stability is achieved.



Future mechanisms to ensure sustainability, there is collaboration being explored with institutions of higher learning to provide customised training to all willing members of CPAs and effectively in a language that the community understands. The language spoken by the majority of CPA members is identified and CPA founding documents get translated into that particular language in order to encourage effective participation of members in the affairs. In instances where CPAs do not have the



necessary infrastructure to keep records, the department and its district offices make available basic CPA documents like a Constitution, membership lists, etc.

Streets enforcement of existing legal mechanisms is undertaken to discourage rogue CPA executives from operating in a manner that is inconsistent with the aspirations of the CPA membership. The departmental CPA monitoring capacity is underway to be improved in order to better understand the needs of CPAs and provides on time support.



Lastly, the possibility of deconsolidating big CPAs that comprise of various communities, who do not regard themselves as a single community is being explored. I thank you.



Ms K D MAHLATSI: Thank you, House Chair, hon Deputy Minister thank very much for your comprehensive response, however, I hope you will agree with me that the intention of the amendment to the Communal Property Association Act of 1996 was to address many challenges that the department had experience in implementing the act over the years. These challenges range from literacy to



capacity in as-far-as the capabilities of CPAs is concerned. In view of the latter, what role will the recent Amendment Bill play in ensuring effective operations of the CPAs? Thank you.





DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): The Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, particularly the fifth administration had been going through the amendments with the very fine comb, in order to look at exactly the limitations the hon member is referring to. Therefore, the amendments are specifically to address the limitations, trying to close all gaps and make sure that there is smooth running. One of the problems that we do have is also the laxity and the members themselves, not taking serious the period of making sure that the executive is accountable.



I have referred also to the fact that the department does all sports training in relation to these people so that they can better understand. You are dealing here with people who are now administering large assets, large quantities of money and therefore they should be so



empowered to understand their role and the fact that the resources are not necessarily theirs. It is for the sake of the general membership of the respective CPAs. Thank you.





Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo weNdlu, mhlonishwa umuntu akakuthokozele ukuphendula ngokweqiniso ukuthi kukhona uqhekeko olukhona kuma-CPAs, kodwa ke la ngizocela ukuphambuka khona lapho umhlonishwa ethi uMnyango kukhona okwenzayo okungcono ukuthi abantu bayoqeqeshwa ukuze zingabibikho lezi zinto ezidalekayo phakathi kwabo ukuthi kubekhona uqhekeko nezingxabano.

Okokugcina, kwezinye izindawo kukhona ekutheni kube khona abanye ababulawayo. Kungekudala nje kukhona omunye odutshulwe ngale KwaZulu-Natali obeyingxenye yekomidi kodwa bekuyi-Trust, hhayi i-CPA. Kepha ke iyafana i-Trust ne-CPA.



Mhlonishwa angisho lokhu nganelisekile ngempendulo yakho. Lingakanani iqiniso ukuthi uMnyango uyaphuma uyofundisa abantu? Ngokubuka uMnyango ufike ugqinsile iTayitela esizweni - nangu umhlaba sinithengele wona, khethani



ikomidi, sebenzani. Kumbalwa uma kungukuthi ufice lapho khona kuyekwenzeka lolo qeqesho lokuthi abantu bazi. Le nto ifaka imindeni eminingi nabantu abaningi abathi bengena nje bacabange ukuthi akube yimali. Bethi umhlaba abawuthandi kangako ngakho ke baphephela ekutheni kungcono ubuyiselwe emuva banikezwe izimali. Mhlonishwa ngikhulekela isivinini eMnyangweni wakho ukuthi akusheshe uyoqeqeshwa abantu ukuze kuphele izingxabano nokuxoveka kwemiphakathi yethu ngenxa yama-CPA. Ngiyabonga.




baba, okokuqala, lendaba yabantu abafuni imali besike sakhuluma ngayo emibuzweni eyedlule.





There are situations where it is inevitable because the land that has been restituted is not possible to give people – I can make examples of the Union Buildings and many other areas. To be very honest, during this whole period, we also have teething problems as a department. So, I would not say that ...





... ayikho lento yokuthi kwezinye izindawo abantu nje sibashiye ngalolo hlobo.





It is in that regard that I say, we are improving on what we are doing, based on the history. The truth of the matter is that the matter of CPAs has not really been a perfect solution to the problems that we have. We are trying to solve a problem and also you will remember people have option whether it’s Trust or CPA. The department has a larger role when it comes to questions of CPAs, but major massive problems are there. Those are the issues I am referring to that training and making sure that our people understand that these are the assets and resources of their own future. They must take care of them and must respect them even for generations to come.



Ms A STEYN: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, I agree with you that communities are sitting on massive resources. My concern is that may be the department uses a very fine comb to look at which CPAs actually sit on these mineral resources, and then they use that to block



communities to form CPAs. I am going to ask you a specific question about the Bakgatla Ba-Kgafela community. [Interjections.] For years, Chair, they are struggling to form a CPA and I am quoting the Daily Maverick where they say:



Under the land that belongs to Bakgatla Ba-Kgafela lie the richest platinum deposits on earth. But the toxic alliance between government, traditional chieftaincy and major mining houses stood in that way of the community to actually get access to their wealth. [Interjections.]



What is the department doing to ensure that community actually gets access to that wealth that they are sitting on? Are you helping or blocking? [Applause.]





DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): Thank you very much hon Steyn, Bakgatla Ba-Kgafela in the North West Province. Let me just indicate to you that when I was speaking about resources, I was not only speaking about mineral resources. I am speaking about resources in general,



including mineral resources. Even the millions that are sitting with CPAs, those are the resources I am referring to. Let me just quickly say that the issue you are referring to, I fortunately had an opportunity of leading a process of trying to get that CPA together. [Interjections.] We can spend the whole day and night - that particular CPA, in fact, when I was referring in my initial answer about a director-general given a responsibility to oversee a CPA, that’s one example of such a CPA. You know what happened when I went there to intervene. On arrival, amongst the members themselves, there were not less than four entities that called them CPAs, including the traditional authority. There has always been various accusations about issues of corruption from members of the department. I specifically said please provide us with the names and the evidence, we will investigate and do something about it. I invite you, hon Steyn. If you do have such information, please, bring it to us and see whether we are not going to take action against such. I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much and thank you to all the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers for your responses today.



The House adjourned at 18:02.









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