Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 17 Sep 2019


No summary available.





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The House met at 14:00.



The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.







The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members on behalf of the presiding officers, I wish to convey our heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of the Deputy Minister of Mineral Resources and Member of Parliament, who tragically passed away on Friday,

13 September 2019. Ms Bavelile Hlongwa. The House will schedule



a Condolence Motion in this regard, at the appropriate time. May we stand and observe a moment of silence in respect of the hon member.



[Members arose.]



Thank you. You may be seated.



Hon members, the first item on the Order Paper is the statement by the Minister of Trade and Industry on Brexit in quotes and its impact on South Africa’s economy. Hon Minister, Ebrahim Patel. [Applause.]






The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, thank you for the opportunity to make a statement on the conclusion of talks involving the governments of the United Kingdom, UK, and South Africa.



These talks have sought agreement on terms that would apply to our trade relations with the United Kingdom, should it leave the European Union, EU, without an appropriate withdrawal agreement.



I am pleased to report that the discussions have been successful and that subject to Cabinet approval, the agreement reached with the UK will be submitted to Parliament for ratification.



I wish to provide this House today with the context for the agreement, a brief summary of some of the terms agreed and the implications for the South African economy, investment and jobs.



The UK is one of South Africa’s most important trading relationships.



In 2018, bilateral trade - two-way trade - between our countries was worth R142 billion.



The UK is our fourth largest export market, behind only China, Germany and the United States; and it is the seventh largest supplier of imported goods.



It is estimated that our exports to the UK, supports 56 500 direct jobs and a further 17 500 indirect jobs, bringing the total number of jobs supported by exports to the UK to nearly 175 000.



Our exports to the UK support jobs in platinum mines in North West and Limpopo. It supports our citrus industries in the Eastern Cape, Western Cape, Limpopo and Mpumalanga. It supports our wine, grape, apple and berry industries. It supports the auto sectors in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. It also supports also beneficiation of platinum, through the sale of about R1,4 billion worth of catalytic converters used in British-assembled cars. This shows across the country, trade with the UK supports industry and jobs here in South Africa.



As with all members of the European Union, trade with the UK has dated been facilitated under what is known as the Southern African Development Community-European Union, SADC-EU, or Economic Partnership Agreement, EPA.



The EPA provides for the tariff arrangements applicable to trade between six SADC countries and any of the 28 EU member states.

The SADC countries are South Africa, Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, Eswatini and Mozambique collectively known as Southern African Customs Union and Mozambique, SACUM. A number of products are duty free and there are also detailed trade rules set out in the EPA to make trade easier between ourselves.



However, hon members, you will know that following a referendum held in the UK in 2016, the UK notified the European Union of its intention to leave the EU by 31 October this year, though processes in the British parliament may affect that date. If there is no agreement on the terms of the departure, it will in the form of a no-deal exit.



This will have a material impact on the six SACUM countries, including South Africa, which trade with the UK under the terms of the existing EPA. All trade will then fall under standard World Trade Organisation, WTO, rules, which mean the normal import tariffs, would apply and many of our products will lose their duty-free status.



For South Africa and indeed the SACUM countries, reverting to trade on WTO term would incur significant costs.



In March this year, the UK published an interim tariff regime in the event that it leaves the EU customs union and in the absence of a replacement to the SADC-EU EPA. If this were to occur, South Africa would lose preferential access to the UK market on a 114 products, affecting exports of some R7 billion. It affects among others vehicles, auto components, wine, textiles and clothing, sugar, fish and machinery. In some cases, this may lead to a loss of exports completely, which would be significant for a number of provinces.



In addition the UK exports to SACUM countries would be subject to these higher tariffs, which may also increase the costs of products in South Africa, if they use inputs secured from the UK. It will hurt local industry.



There would also be potential loss of trade for other SACUM countries. For Botswana the costs would be in beef exports; for Eswatini in sugar; for Namibia in fish, fruit and beef exports.



This is important to us, hon members, because economic slowdown amongst our neighbours can trigger a slowdown in a number of our own industries. Last year alone exports from South Africa to SACUM neighbours amounted to R179 billion.



I turn next to the processes to establish a new EPA between South Africa and the UK. To avoid the disruptions to South Africa’s exports and that of the region the SACUM countries engaged with the UK over a roughly two-year period. Talks initially stalled.



In July this year, I engaged with my UK counterpart to enable resolution of the remaining issues so that agreement could be concluded before 31 October this year.



An expedited process for the negotiations saw significant ground covered in addressing these outstanding issues, and the final terms were concluded by SACUM officials in Gaborone earlier this month.



So, what measures are contained in the new EPA between South Africa and the UK? The new agreement which will be known as the SACUM-UK Economic Partnership Agreement will effectively roll over and replicate the terms of trade present in the existing EPA. It will allow for seamless uninterrupted trade to continue between ourselves and the UK.



The tariff arrangement under the SADC-EU EPA has been carried over to cover trade with the United Kingdom. The new agreement includes many other details. For example, the quota level for certain products of duty-free trade; health and safety standards for agricultural products; the rules to determine whether a product qualifies as locally made and is therefore eligible for preferential trade rates or what is called rules of origin; and whether goods that have been processed partially in an EU state can still qualify under the rules of origin. It is called cumulation.



Under the EPA, South African assembled cars, if I use that as an example will have tariff-free access to the UK, making our cars more competitive in that market than cars made in many other



parts of the world. This support South African industrialisation and create jobs here in South Africa.



Tariff-free imports are also enjoyed for our citrus products, for grapes and for plums, while South African wine enjoys tariff-free access under a quota.



Where we have tariff-rate quotas in place with the EU, a new, additional quota has been agreed for trade between the United Kingdom and the SACUM countries.



For example, in addition to the current quota to the EU which remains unaffected by this agreement, in other words we banking that and we are keeping that. We also now have a new additional tariff-free quota for about 70 000 tons of refined and unrefined sugar; for about 18 000 tons of canned pear, apricot and peach products and for about 70 million litres of wines.



The UK asked us during the cause of the negotiations for the right of components made in the European Union and which they used in British final products to qualify for preferential



access to South Africa. We agreed to that. We agreed to that subject to that same facility being available for South African exports to Britain where we use components from any of the remaining EU countries, as well as from any other of the SACUM countries. This is important in sectors like food where there are supply chains that cut across countries or the auto sector where a carburettor may be made in Germany used in a car assembled in South Africa and sold to a car in the United Kingdom.



The new EPA will also use the health and safety standards applicable to the European Union, and the UK will continue to accept EU model health certificates and plant protection certificates for a period of 12 months from Brexit. The UK will accept imports of specified animal products from establishments approved by the European Union, for a period of six months and all of these can be rolled over for an additional six months.

Now this is quite important if you are exporting and you need to have multiple systems of documentation and requirements, it makes the appetite of local players to export. It dampens that appetite because clearly the transaction costs go up.



South Africa currently has special protection or what is called safeguard measures in place for poultry imports from the European Union. This is to support South African chicken producers and local jobs. We have now agreed that the safeguard measures that are in place against the EU chickens, will continue to apply to British poultry until March 2022, even if and when Britain leaves the EU, unless it is set aside through the normal processes of review or appeal.



We have also agreed on a built-in agenda, namely a list of matters for further negotiation after the agreement comes into effect. It includes issues such as the right of countries of South Africa to use export taxes to promote local industries and crediting South African made inputs in products made in other SACUM countries, where we export these to Britain in future.



The new EPA will come into effect in the event that the UK leaves the EU on 31 October this year. And will govern bilateral trade between the six SACUM countries on the one hand and the UK on the other.



It is an important agreement to provide certainty and predictability for exporters.



It will ensure that in the event of a no-deal Brexit, trade between the UK and South Africa will continue on the same terms. This means that South African businesses which use South Africa as an export base to the UK can begin to plan, knowing that the preferential access will be protected.



It means those investors, who held back on capital commitments or managers who press the pause button until there is greater certainty, can now begin to invest again and they can begin to produce again because we have clarity of the legal trade regime that would be in place from the 1st of November. It means the thousands of workers from across this country, whose jobs are supported by trade with the United Kingdom, can feel confident that government is working for them; it is protecting their jobs and is supporting local industry.



I turn next to the steps that would need to be taken to ensure that the agreements come into full force and effect. The



processes to bring the new EPA into effect are currently underway. We did the legal scrubbing in Gaborone and we now have an agreement that is being initialled by all the negotiators.

One it is approved by Cabinet, the agreement will be submitted to this august House for ratification. A similar process will then take place in each of the other six countries. As soon as those processes have been completed, the agreement would come into effect. It would be a new treaty that governs the trade arrangements between the SACUM countries and the United Kingdom.



Given the time available until 31 October, it is just around the corner, there is a distinct possibility that not all the ratifications will be in place on time. To cover this possibility a Memorandum of Understanding has been agreed, which will allow trade to continue on these agreed terms in the EPA from 1 November this year effectively, until the new agreement come into effect. So we have a plan A which is ratification by the 31 October, we have a plan B in place, if there are any glitches in any of the countries, we would be able to maintain these preferential terms in our trade with the United Kingdom.



Hon members, thank you. Regardless the outcome of the UK debates on Brexit, our trading relationship with the United Kingdom can continue without disruption. This is important for the thousands of South African workers whose jobs are dependent on this trade; and for the investors who have utilised South Africa as an export base to the UK and to the rest of the world.



The agreement itself is more than 2 000 pages long, including its annexes. It is therefore a substantial body of text to regulate our future trade and to support South African industry and jobs. Thank you for this opportunity to advice this House on this positive development. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, the DA commends Minister Patel and the negotiating team headed by Ambassador Xavier Carrim, for finalising this important trade agreement with the United Kingdom last week. It is important to acknowledge the work that has gone into this deal and succeeding where his predecessor could not. The trade deal between South Africa, five other African countries and the United Kingdom, is effectively a roll over of the European Partnership Agreement that South



Africa is a signatory to. It allows us tariff-free entry into the European Union on many exports including our important agricultural sector.



Until 31 October 2019, this access via the European Partnership Agreement to the United Kingdom will remain. However, should the United Kingdom leave the European Union without a deal, this new agreement will come into effect. This gives our industries and farmers much needed certainty so that they can continue to invest in their production capacities as well as maintain the

175 O00 jobs which are employed by businesses and farmers that trade with the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is an important market for South African and Western Cape exports. It was the Western Cape’s second largest export destination in 2018, and South Africa’s fourth largest. South Africa’s trade with the United Kingdom was worth R142 billion in 2018, and the Western Cape nearly R10 billion. Wine was the leading export category to the United Kingdom from the Western Cape, with exports valued at nearly R2 billion in 2018.



The DA believes that this agreement will provide a perfect platform to keep the status quo into the future and will allow South Africa to build on future trade negations with the United Kingdom to widen our ability to export to this market, especially in agricultural products like beef and poultry. But this can only be done if the government is willing, and able to map out a long term future for industry through policy certainty, export promotion and access to development finance. Without all of these components, we will simply not be able to take advantage of our trade opportunities to positively grow our trade balance and increase employment opportunities in South Africa.



Without manufactures and farmers, we will have nothing to trade and it appears that this government is hell-bent on exploring that possibility. The ANC and EFF continue to march in lockstep towards expropriation without compensation, with no clear and rational end to this debate which has drawn out for nearly two years now. It has sowed confusion, seen land sales and prices dramatically decline resulting in decreased capital investment.



All the while, leaving productive farmers who take advantage of our duty-free trade agreements none the wiser as to whether they will get to keep their farms and continue to employ thousands of farm workers.



We have prescribed assets, again championed by the ANC and EFF, which seeks to steal people’s pensions so that they can continue to prop up bankrupt State Enterprises, which will have the net effect of driving South Africans to withdraw their capital and invest elsewhere. Home affairs is a modern, local take on Faulty Towers, who takes months on end to process business visa’s, locking out CEOs from travelling to South Africa to invest and take advantage of our preferential trade access to Europe and the United Kingdom.



Foreign tourists are routinely robbed due to a police force that is losing the war on crime with each passing day. We run the risk of alienating the very countries who make up this deal including, Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, Eswatini and Mozambique by our hands-off approach when it comes to xenophobic violence and targeting of foreign nationals.



Deputy Speaker, as Parliament and as a country, we must be clear on what we want. We can either be a free-trading country that looks to maximise and grow our opportunities that will create wealth and jobs, or we will become a closed, inward focused nation that looks to re-enact the worst that the apartheid regime had to offer in economics. And in fact a very well thought out document now exists that gives us a clear path towards the first option. It charts the way forward with respect to industrial and trade policy and lays out in detail how trade can add 1,6% to Gross domestic products, GDP, within 10 years.



That document is the Economic transformation, inclusive growth, and competitiveness: Towards an Economic Strategy for South Africa by National Treasury and championed by Minister Mboweni. It details the tough decisions we need to make if we want to see growth in our exports. It is clear on the choices we need to take if we want to see 1 million jobs created. And it is honest in the hard work that will be required from all of us if we want to see South Africa working for all who live in it.



Minister, you have some tough choices to make in the coming months. You can either choose to listen to the enemies of grow within your own party, and kow-tow to the hysterical objections of unelected, anti-job and growth hostage-taking organisations like COSATU and the SACP, or you can choose those 1 million job seekers who see this plan as their last hope. We can use this new trade deal as a beacon for them that we prioritise their needs over the insatiable desire for looting, unemployment and rent seeking that the ANC and EFF lust for on a daily basis.



Minister Patel, in the DA, you and Minister Mboweni have a friend, a political ally and 84 votes to push forward with the changes that we need to see, or else all the hard work and the many hours to bring us to this point of success in concluding a post BREXIT deal, will all have been in vain as we will have nothing to trade in years to come. And with that, we must ratify this agreement as close to or on the 31 October 2019, if possible, and Parliament must spend days and night ahead to make this happen. I thank you. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: As hon Shivambu comes to the podium, please members, join me in welcoming the Dominican School for the Deaf children from Wittebome, in Wynberg, who are there in the gallery. [Applause.] Welcome. Thank you. Hon Shivambu, go ahead.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, I think let us clarify this thing of prescribed assets which has been mentioned by the speaker who just left the podium now. The reality is that all white people in South Africa are beneficiaries of prescribed assets by the apartheid government, which had channelled all pensions to benefit the white minorities when sanctions were being imposed against apartheid. [Interjections.] They utilised those prescribed assets to benefit themselves. So, all white people are beneficiaries of prescribed assets. [Interjections.] [Applause.] And when we want to use that for the benefit of black people, they want to cry foul and act as if there is a crisis. Now coming back to the topic ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members! Order! You can’t scream and shout.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Coming back to the topic, the Commander-in- Chief of the economic emancipation movement, the Ministry of the Department of Trade and Industry, is one of the most dependable colonial administrators in post 1994 setup. So, whatever they do, whether its industrial policy or trade policy, or issues that deals with tax avoidance, what they seek to achieve is to protect the white minority economic control of South Africa.



So, the Minister of Trade and Industry comes here to have some neo-colonial exuberance in speaking about our new colonial status in a so-called new deal with Britain or the United Kingdom, in general. The reality is that, there won’t be anything fundamentally shifting in terms of colonial status that South Africa occupies in its trade relationship with the United Kingdom.



What that trade relationship will do, is to continue to benefit the minority – white agricultural practitioners – and the European companies that are invested in the manufacturing sector. It is to say that now that the ultra nationalist in the United Kingdom, have relinquished their Pancontinental Project



by voting to leave their European economic community, South Africa goes to beg that please don’t affect the white minority controllers of the economy in South Africa. Allow them access to continue exporting goods and services in terms of what should happen.



Let us tell you about a simple story of the companies that are listed in the London Stock Exchange that do business here in South Africa. One is that majority of them are incorporated in the tax havens in the British Islands, Cayman Islands, Gwynn’s Island, Bermuda, and in the Canaan Islands. That is the reality of these companies and they control more than 1 million square kilometres of land in Sub-Saharan Africa. That is four times the size of the United Kingdom. So these are the companies that we are seeking to protect. So they come here, they are British companies and they listed in the London Stock Exchange and when they export goods and services and product to the United Kingdom, we say that those are South African exports.



So the colonial relationship that was created under apartheid is not being restructured, it is not being fundamentally



challenged, it is just a continuation in terms of what is happening. And which are these companies? They are Anglo American, which has basically owned South Africa for a very long time; it’s Lonmin, which together with the ANC government, killed workers in Marikana in 2012; it’s Rio Tinto; it’s Glencoe, which is one of the most sophisticated criminal syndicates in the world in terms of what happens.



So the relationship between South Africa and the United Kingdom is still a neo-colonial relationship and this new trade agreement, does not fundamentally change and even shift that. If you check the baskets of the things that we export to the United Kingdom, it’s semi processed and raw materials in most instances and we bring from the United Kingdom, the finished goods and services, machinery for medical purposes and photographic purposes because we are not manufacturing anything here in South Africa. We are basically protecting the same colonial relationship that existed under apartheid.



Now, what is to be done? Number one is that South Africa must redefine its colonial relationship with the United Kingdom in



both the trade and industrial policy so that we trade on an equal basis. Number two is that South Africa should gain strategic control and ownership of our mineral resources, because the majority of our mineral resources, including coal, are owned by the London Stock Exchange, LSE listed companies.



It is not very difficult to extract coal for domestic consumption even for export purposes but it’s the London companies that own these mineral strategic resources. But South Africa should build internal capacity to beneficiate its natural resources and we must conduct thorough audit of all the companies that are incorporated in the tax havens because this is basically the companies that we are protecting now and we must build proper domestic capacity to drive industrial expansion and stop this thing of giving billions of rands in subsidies to European companies that come here and then when they export back to their home countries, we claim that these are South African exports.



So this excitement, the neo-colonial exuberance of the Minister of Trade and Industry, does not fundamentally shift the economic



basis of South Africa. It is just to protect white economic interest and that is what has to be dealt with. And that can only be achieved by removing the neo-colonial ANC from power because it looks like they have not divorced themselves from the earlier years of 1912 of sending ... [Inaudible.] ... and petitions to the Queen of England to ask for space in the colonial table. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, planning especially in times of uncertainty must always be welcome because planning provides certainty. The hon Minister has performed admirably in this task in bring a certain level of No Deal Post-Brexit trade certainty to South in respect of several markets most notably and recently agreements as regard fresh produce, which is particularly important as we are about to enter the next export cycle in this country.



Mr C MACKENZIE: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I am sorry to interrupt the speaker at the podium. When hon Shivambu walked past this bench here, he turned back and said to hon Mileham and I really do not want use this word in the House, it



was F### you; quite clearly. It is quite shocking that the so- called hon member can behave that way in this House and address an hon member in that fashion. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, did you say that?



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, I did not say it. [Interjections.] I wish I did.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we will check that and come back to the House, if necessary. We will do that. [Interjections.] Hon members, let us not forget that horrible language is inappropriate in the House. Let us not get involved in those games.



Mr M HLENGWA: Therefore, hon Deputy Speaker credit must go the department’s negotiating team in securing this agreement which will come into effect in the event of a No Deal Brexit. It will also ensure trade in these markets between our two countries particularly in such a turbulent period remains largely



unaffected. Britain through its High Commissioner, Nigel Casey confirmed recently that South Africa needs not fear Brexit as it will only strengthen the current economic, trade and development ties between the two countries with one of the main factors being that our economies are complimentary and thus a greater mutual synergy can be found. This is too, should be welcome.



The former British Prime Minister, Theresa May briefly visited Cape Town last year with a trade delegation under the leadership of the Secretary of State for Wales, the Rt Hon Alun Cairns and met with the parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, at the time, under the chairpersonship of Hon Joan Fubbs in late August of 2018. Needless to say though that Brexit and bilateral trade were the main topics of discussion at that meeting. Allied to this discussion was the possibility of easing visitors and business visa restrictions between the two countries as this is often an impediment and barrier to trade and potential trade between the United Kingdom and South Africa, let alone revenue loss of course in potential tourism. This, hon Minister is an avenue which must still be pursued and discussed further and brought to some sort of finality.



Hon Deputy Speaker, whilst being mindful of the fact that state sovereignty and the right of any nation and its people to determine their own future exists, we must say, as the IFP, that we are a little concerned that had this ever increasing age of globalisation and interdependence amongst nations. The United Kingdom through Brexit has chosen to embark on a more isolationist strategy that the current British government is advising will occur with or without a deal on 31 October. As the consequences of such action could have far reaching and deleterious effects not only for the UK and EU but for the entire world and multilateralism in general.



This is particularly concerning as the world grapples with several crises such as climate change which require collective agreement rather than isolationist approaches to the problems before us. Therefore, the IFP supports and remains supportive of the strong and beneficial trade links between South Africa, the United Kingdom and the European Union. We encourage the department and government to pursue further discussions and engage further for the sake of stability, certainty and to ensure that South Africa derives the maximum benefits arising



out of this new course of action that the United Kingdom has taken.



At the forefront of all what we do should be in showing that South Africans should not lose their jobs and that there is an exchange of knowledge skills expertise and innovations so that South Africa can continue to grow. Ultimately our collective pursuit should be in showing economic growth, economic development and the creation of jobs for all South Africans. To be able to do this we need greater global co-operation. I thank you. [Applause.]





Mnr F J MULDER: Agb Adjunkspeaker, Minister Patel, lede, die VF Plus verwelkom die feit dat ’n handelsooreenkoms tussen Suid- Afrika en Engeland bereik is, gegewe die feit dat die Brexit ooreenkoms op hierdie stadium onduidelik is, en dat dit onduidelik is of Engeland die Europese Unie gaan verlaat met of sonder ’n ooreenkoms.



Ons erken die feit dat dit baie moeilik is om onder hierdie omstandighede te verander.





Deputy Speaker, the FF Plus is however concerned about the future of our economy of South Africa. There are some government policies that are currently in different stages of implementation already in Act that would most likely have detrimental effect on the South African economy and influence future negotiations and trade deals. The first one that I want to mention is the Consumer Debt Relief Act, the second namely the National Health Insurance, the Appropriation of Property without Compensation, Mining Charter, Nationalisation of the Reserve Bank, Prescribed Assets, Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, Affirmative Action and lastly the Health or Sugar Tax Act.





Die land se ekonomie staan op die rand van ‘n afgrond met sakevertroue wat tot op sy laagste vlak in 20 jaar getuimel het. Die regering moet nou alles in die stryd werp om die land se



ekonomie te groei en sy onwerkbare ideologiese beleidstukke op sy skuif.



Die VF Plus sal graag wil sien dat Suid-Afrika ’n ekonomie ontwikkel vir sy mense bo dié van ’n ideologie. Ons moet eers die ekonomie groei, voordat werksgeleenthede geskep kan word en ideologie uiteindelik deurgevoer kan word. Die regering sal ’n nou of nooit-benadering moet volg, of ons gaan almal saam die wrang vrugte van armoede pluk.





The HOUSE CHAIR (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon Mulder, may I make you aware that the Deputy Speaker has just left but of course I would appreciate the position. Thank you. [Laughter.]



Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chair, the ACDP notes that on 23 June 2016, the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. More than 30 million people from the UK voted 52% of British voters chose to leave the European Union. With former British Prime Minister, Theresa May, stating emphatically that Brexit means Brexit, and the current Prime Minister, Boris the now “Hulk”



Johnson determined to press ahead with an exit from the EU, with or without a deal. The gravity of a Brexit with its different possibilities has far reaching economic and geopolitical implications. This is certainly true for South Africa and our other Southern African Customs Union and Mozambique, SACUM partners.



It is the view of the ACDP that the impact of Brexit on the UK economy, is of great concern to South Africa’s interests, especially our imports. The most significant threat to South Africa will arise from a reduced export demand if the UK economy is damaged as a result of leaving the EU. In addition, old agreements such as the SADC-EU- Economic Partnership Agreement, EPA, - SADC-EU-EPA would become obsolete after Brexit. It was hence imperative to reach an agreement to roll over trade rules of the SADC-EU - EPA to a new SACUM - UK- EPA.



The UK is South Africa’s 5th largest trading partner and trade between the UK and South Africa increased from R63,7 billion in 2012 to R106,2 billion in 2018. It must be noted as was reported at our Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry by Deputy



Director General, Ambassador Xavier Carim, that a failure to conclude an arrangement, would have meant that South Africa trades with the UK on World Trade Organisation, WTO MFN terms. This would imply new tariffs on 114 different tariff lines of export interest to South Africa, notably on autos, textiles and clothing and sugar industries.



The ACDP is in agreement with Minister Patel, that a No Deal Brexit without a new agreement in place would hurt the SA economy, further increasing the unemployment rate and resulting in the loss of exports, as the UK is a key trading partner of South Africa. As protagonists of South Africa becoming competitive in the global economy and as champions for improving the quality of life for all South Africans, irrespective of their skin colour, the ACDP supports the new trade agreement with the United Kingdom. I thank you. [Applause.]



Ms T L MARAWU: House Chairperson, hon members, the Brexit debacle should serve as a lesson for South Africa on the one hand and a red warning light on the other. The lesson is simply that the United Kingdom, UK, citizens are saying the same thing



that the ATM is saying, in South Africa when we say, put South Africa first. They are saying, put the UK first.



Even in our continent, we have seen various countries developing country-centric legislation. If South Africa continues to ignore its own citizens, local stability will be a Utopia. South Africa must learn the right things from its own former coloniser that the noblest thing to do is to prioritise its own citizens and engage with international investors with a clear agenda in mind, to advance the development of the people of South Africa. Our focus and campaign for the micro economy to be ring-fenced for locals is informed by nothing else but a patriotic desire for a strong domestic economy that is local small, medium enterprise, SME-driven so that the majority of our people also benefit.



The value of the rand will forever be vulnerable as long as our domestic economy is nonexistent and as long as we continue to be modern slaves of the west. We note the deal announced by the Minister of the DTI to continue the trade with the UK on current terms, however, we must not be naïve to think that the UK agreed



to this deal without self-interest for its own post-Brexit situation.



South Africa should have hedged its bets and struck a similar deal with the European Union, EU, so that the interests of our country are safeguarded regardless of the Brexit outcome. There is a red warning flashing in terms of the probable weakening of the UK currency post the Brexit if the pull-out is on a “no- deal” basis.



There is a real risk of the UK currency plunge which might strengthen the dollar which in turn might depress the rand. South Africa must therefore not be caught up in factional fights of Europe at the expense of our economy.



The engagement with the Brexit matter must not be informed by submissive nostalgic tendencies of a former colony of the UK. The interests of South Africa must be paramount. Thank you very much, Chair.



Mr S N AUGUST: Hon House Chairperson, whether we agree or disagree with the UK’s decision to turn its back on Europe, we rather focus on the new opportunities that it presents for trade and to grow our economy. The UK is historically among South Africa’s most important trading partners, these links must be strengthened in the new European context.



If the government does its homework, Brexit could hold important benefits for South Africa through the development of stronger trade partnerships with Europe. Hon Minister Patel should take the nation into his confidence in our preparations for Brexit.



How do we position ourselves to continue growing our relationship with the UK? What current talks are between our President and the newly installed Prime Minister Boris Johnson in order to grow new relationships with the UK? And, how are our consultations with European leaders progressing? What is their stance with respect to trade with Africa after Brexit comes into effect? It is not rocket science to observe that increased trade with the UK and Europe will result in more jobs especially for our youth.



This can only be positive, as we see the rise of youth unemployment in our country and the desperate need to skill our young people to become employable. GOOD has always been clear. Directly creating jobs is not a government’s role. Its role is to lay the foundations for an environment favourable to job creation to position our country to succeed.



With Brexit looming large on the horizon, the work government does behind-the-scenes today will impact how our country looks tomorrow. If we are seen to be turning the corner on corruption, creating conditions conducive to trade such as reducing red tape, investing in our infrastructure, building a world-class transport system, securing our ports and harbours and providing policy certainty to investors, we will be well-positioned to benefit from Brexit. Let us not waste this opportunity. Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair let me start off by extending our condolences to the family of our former Deputy Minister Bavelile Hlongwa, May her soul rest in peace, our condolences to her family, friends and the ANC at large. Let me also welcome



and congratulate Minister Patel and his team for the good work you have done.



Indeed, I think comrade Macpherson is correct that, in signing this agreement, you will save thousands of jobs in South Africa particularly in the Western Cape because a lot of our fruit in the agricultural sector plays a pivotal role in the economy of the Western Cape particularly. So, I think we must congratulate you for the role that you have played and in that process; I think you may have saved many jobs in South Africa and thank you very much for that foresight into realising what could happen had we not.



Let me also welcome your initiative, Minister Patel, in the manufacturing sector particularly in the textile and things and I know that you have a new initiative that you want to put forward to strengthen and enhance the manufacturing industry, again, let me congratulate you for that.



Now, let me just set the record straight on some issue here particularly that I heard comrade Shivambu talk about prescribed



assets. Yes, indeed prescribed assets is a great thing, would have been a great thing in South Africa had we been able to manage ourselves professionally in a satisfactory manner.



That not being the case in South Africa at the moment, touching on the investments of our pensioners is clearly not a good idea. And I know where hon Shivambu comes from because if you prescribe that assets automatically he has control over them so that he can pocket those monies which is what he has been doing for a long period of time [Interjections.]



And that is why he believes it is in the interest ... to go and prescribe these particular assets and he is been loud and clear that ... [Inaudible.]



Let me also add one more thing you know, we talk about the UK and the European Union and yes indeed I must agree that we have the assets, the African continent has all the resources indeed but it is not the wealth that we are enjoying today because it is in the hands of many of western superpowers [Inaudible.] raw materials.



But let us also not forget that it is your party leadership that was in the UK and that was sipping wine there with the leaders of the mining magnates there. So, I mean, we can not say one thing and do something else. So, if you guys promote it when it suits you all and when it does then ... [Inaudible.]



Minister, I just want to add that one very important thing we need to be cognisant of and that is, if xenophobic attacks continue in South Africa, what is the effect going to be if the Southern African Development Community, SADC, countries and Africa as a whole decide to stop doing business with South Africa. That can have a devastating effect and I think we need to actually address that. However, I think the NFP fully supports the agreement that you have entered into and thank you very much.



Mr M P GALO: Hon Chair, it is worth noting that South Africa is a member of the G20, G77 and was recently elected as a nonpermanent member of the United Nations Security Council. It offers the world a unique opportunity to explore the African market. In a joint statement on Brazil, Russia, India, China and



South Africa, BRICS, which was issued by Russia on behalf of the union in 2009, there were signs that peace and democracy were among the key issues that the BRICS dominion would gravitate towards in the long run. The statement provided that as I quote:



We underline our support for a more democratic and just multi-polar world order based on the rule of international law, equality, mutual respect, co-operation, co-ordinated action and collective decision-making of all states. We reiterate our support for political and diplomatic efforts to peacefully resolve disputes in international relations.



In acknowledging the significance of the BRICS union, in his 2014 state of the nation address, former President, Jacob Zuma stated that as I quote:



Participation in international multilateral forums such as the G20 have been beneficial for the country. And joining the Brazil, Russia, India and China, BRIC, group in December 2010 counts as among the key achievements of the fourth administration.



There is also a great opportunity, in our view, for the BRICS union to establish a Committee on Free BRICS-African Trade to unlock Africa’s potential. This can have massive influence on African’s infrastructural capital. It could improve our trade relations, create large-scale employment, produce local financiers, and further establish the African Continental Monitory Fund.



If that could be achieved, hon Chair, Africa would cease to be exploited by the International Monitory Fund and the World Bank. [Time expired.]



Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, history has happened and history will continue to happen. Today we consider an issue which affects the history of this country profoundly. We have to remember that in the 1800 already, we were linked to the British, that our gold mining, our diamond mining and many industries that this country developed, were linked to the relationship that we had in history.



Whatever the pleasant and unpleasantness of that relationship, history happened the way it happened. Today we have to consider what is in the interest of the people of this country going forward. We have relations that go way beyond the British and we must maintain those relationships with various countries which make for the betterment of the conditions of life of the people of this country, the Germans, the European Union, EU, and the British.



However, we must be able to recognise that we are an independent country, and subject to what relations we strike with different countries, that is the road we will take to take South Africa forward. If the British disagree with the Europeans and decide to reduce relations with them, it must not be at our expense.

Also, we cannot be told by anybody whether we maintain relations with the British or with the Europeans.



We must decide that on the basis of what is in the interest of the people of South Africa. Therefore, we will be happy if there is peace in the world, which means, if the British and the Europeans savour relations in a peaceful way, that is in our



interest. But we will maintain relations with both, and we must do so because many of the jobs of the people in this country depends on trade that we have with the British, with the Germans, with the French and so on.



Why should we consider to savour or to disrupt economic and other relations with countries which otherwise have no truck to fight us. Therefore, we must hope and persuade to the extent possible, that South Africans and South African business must understand that they are at home in this country as long as they keep such trade with other countries as strengthens the conditions in this country.



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, Al Jama-ah is a bit worried that the 2000 pages the Minister speaks about may benefit Britain more than South Africa. The consequences of South Africa could obviously be huge. It is very difficult to understand what Brexit really means for South Africa, the implications could be far reaching. What happens if there is a change of government? South Africa can be reasonably confident that by the end of 2019 at the latest, the UK will not legally be part of the EU.



The biggest threat to South Africa will be reduced export demand if the Brexit negotiations damage the UK economy. Predicting the impact of Brexit on South Africa is further complicated by the need, by 2019, to negotiate a final South Africa—UK trade agreement to replace the existing South Africa-EU agreements, which will obviously no longer apply to South Africa—UK bi- lateral trade after Britain leaves the EU. The Minister seems to be on top of matters and Minister, your hard work has not one unnoticed.



Brexit is unlikely to damage South African exports to the UK. It could even open up certain offensive opportunities for South Africa, especially in agriculture, that’s why I am disappointed that the Minister has not given some guidance to the agriculture sector to take advantage of the opportunities. The priority for South Africa is to avoid this default position, and negotiate, even temporarily, a UK trade deal that is close to, or beater than, the existing EU arrangement.



A secondary priority would be to focus on identifying and supporting, both domestically and through trade agreements,



trade interests which stand to gain from the Brexit change. The Ministers are however not proactive enough to promote trade and get industry to South Africa that would benefit South Africans who were excluded from the decades of trade due to colonial days and today. It is quite obvious that South Africa would benefit if there is no Brexit deal. So, with the respect I disagree with the Minister and the assessment of the ACDP.



Al Jama-ah realises the importance of exports for our inflow, but I think that there’s a lot of lessons that we can learn from the initiatives taken by Brother Leader Muammar Gaddafi which put Libya to the next level and Africa will hopefully do that.

Thank you. [Time expired.]



Mr D M NKOSI: House Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Ministers, hon members, fellow South Africans, let me add my voice in expressing our heartfelt condolences to the family, comrades and friends of our comrade Bavelile Hlongwa. Indeed, our country and its people have been robbed of a shining star. A young comrade who still had the energy to advance a better life for our



people. We are saddened by her passing at such a tender age. May her Soul Rest in Peace!



Further, one would like to just comment hon Macpherson that it might be actually a bit difficult to separate the presentation of the collective leadership of the ANC on the same issue on the likes and dislike of what you like. So and so has said something you like, somebody doesn’t say something you don’t like. I am just saying that it is just unfortunate...



The further point which might be quite important is that on our part it is critical that the event of the United Kingdom, UK, leaving the European Union, EU, will remain in terms of trade of our tariff’s structure, quotas, health and safety standards, rules of origin and cumulations, so that our trade with the UK is not disrupted. To add to this, the EU as a block, is South Africa’s top trading partner. It is therefore, in the interests of Southern African Customs Union and Mozambique, SACUM, the UK and the EU, to ensure that the Brexit matter is handled in such a way that it does not disrupt current and future trade relations.



The SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement, which was concluded in June 2016, provides exporters from the six Southern African Development Community, SADC, countries, including South Africa, with preferential access to the EU markets for our products. For South Africa, this includes the automotive industry and our agricultural industries. This preferential access to the EU market makes South African imports much more competitive versus the other imports, and therefore makes South African products more available and desirable. This supports the demand for South African-made goods in the EU, and drives jobs and economic growth in our local industries.



Our attitude as a country to trade relations is guided among other things, by the principles of ensuring that trade agreements must advance our agenda of supporting industrial development, enhance South Africa’s exports of high value-added products to protect sensitive sectors, as well as to ensure that our trade relations advance regional or continental integration.



Being part of the international trade regime, within the rule- based international system, our country has benefitted and



continue to benefit from various trade agreements. We have bilateral and multilateral with other nations of the world. It may be that we desire to export value-added products to the world as opposed to export driven by commodities. The UK and EU Trade Agreement with South Africa and within SACUM, provide such trade platforms where industrial development can be enhanced.



Since the decision by the UK to exit the EU, our government, in particular the Minister of Trade and Industry, has interacted with the UK government to develop a principled agreement to roll-over trade rules of the SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement. This principle agreement will ensure that the existing tariff lines which include tariffs on autos, textiles, clothing and sugar are not severely affected by the outcome of Brexit developments.



As the Minister of Trade and Industry said in his statement announcing the agreement reached with the UK that:



“This creates the environment which preserves current trading conditions and protects jobs. If a deal is reached



between the UK and the EU, this acts as a sort of insurance policy.”



We are fully optimistic that there will not be any disruption, regardless of the route the UK finally takes. The negotiations also addressed matters relating to Rules of Origin, Sanitary and Phytosanitary and other Transitional Arrangements were attended to.



The former and current Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition have consistently kept the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry updated on any development regarding this matter. The Legacy Report of the Portfolio Committee outlines how the committee and the department led by the Minister have worked together in their different functions and roles to ensure that South Africa’s trade relations with the UK are not negatively affected by the Brexit.



The ANC also applauds the inclusion of cumulation provisions allowing development of our regional value-chains. The successful negotiations of these provisions by the Department of



Trade, Industry and Competition will allow South Africa to source inputs from our SACUM neighbours when exporting to the UK, and will further allow our SACUM neighbours to source critical inputs from South Africa when they export to the UK.



The new Economic Partnership Agreement is the product of Co- ordination and work between six African countries, and is proof of the power of a collective African approach can have when dealing with the global trading partners. It lays the foundation for how our countries can work together as we begin the implementation of an African Continental Free Trade Agreement, bringing an entire continent of 1.3 billion people together.



The ANC also welcomes the continuation of the existing safeguard measures on poultry. The South African poultry industry is critical for job creation and transformation in agriculture, supporting direct employment for nearly 50 000 people. However, it has been under pressure from imports, which has hurt the industry badly.



The safeguard measures against the EU, and which has now been continued to cover the UK in the event of a no-deal Brexit, provides some additional protection for the industry, while the new master-plan to drive growth, investment and jobs is developed and implemented.



We are aware that there are processes in the UK and EU which may have an impact on whether a no-deal Brexit occurs, and if it does, when it might occur. However, we are pleased that whether and how this exit might occur, South African exporters to the UK can have the certainty they need to invest, employ and produce without disruption. The ANC therefore supports the conclusion of the SACUM-UK Economic Partnership Agreement, and calls on this House to ratify the agreement as soon as is it is brought to Parliament. I thank you.



The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much, hon members, for the comments. I think what we saw today is a widespread support across the House for the agreements. I want to thank hon Macpherson for his congratulations, and we agree that we should use the instruments of industrial funding to



leverage more opportunities for the country. I do not agree, however, with the characterisation of the South African economy, particularly where the characterisation of trade unions as enemies of growth. If we, in fact, can reach agreement with the United Kingdom, UK, we can and should be reaching agreement with trade unions, business organisations and with South Africans on how to move the economy forward to unify the nation around a compelling vision of growth, jobs and transformation. That’s our task not to exclude, to walk away, but to include building this place the centre that ensures this nation holds, develops, builds and transforms.



We are open to trade with the rest of the world, with the United States and China, with Britain and India, with Portugal and Brazil. We do what is in the interest of South Africa, in the interest of workers and communities, in the interest of industrialist and investors from South Africa. That must be our guiding basis. I must say, hon members, that I was somewhat puzzled by the comments of the hon Shivambu. I would like to share with the hon Shivambu that the overall value of trade



between South Africa and the United Kingdom strongly favour South Africa.



We import or buy about R36 billion worth of goods. We export or sell about R106 billion worth of goods. Therefore, we run a very big trade surplus. Why should we walk away from this? I want to also take issue with the question of industrialisation, of course, the point is valid. We need to deepen industrialisation. We need to do more. We can’t just be a seller of raw materials to the rest of the world.



However, if you look at the list of the top 10 exports, we sell to the United Kingdom; number three is the export of cars. Jobs for workers in Tshwane, Nelson Mandela Bay and EThekwini, a

120 000 South African workers assemble cars and make components here in South Africa. We are Africa’s manufacturer of cars, producing 600 000 cars every year that we sell in our own country and to the rest of the world, owning foreign exchange, ensuring that those workers have wages, giving job security, providing opportunity, and getting taxes that can build houses and provide health care to our people.



However, on the top 10 list, aside from the R7 billion worth of cars is also catalytic converters that we sell, and this is something in the car that uses platinum. It beneficiates South African platinum, here in South Africa, creating local jobs and ensuring that, in fact, we provide opportunities for South Africa.



I’m reminded of the debates we had in the 1980’s when we build a militant trade union movement that took on apartheid. When we met with workers there were sometimes two views. One view is that “don’t sign wage agreements with the employers”, and the other one which is the view that workers accepted, that we have a strong mandate for is “use your organisation or capacity and power and enter into those agreements, and make sure that those are good agreements.” Our job is not to bake slogans, but to bake bread. It is not to build the rhetoric, but to build cars. It is not to dig divisions, but to dig gold and platinum. It is to provide opportunity for South Africans. And so, as we move forward because the statement dealt with Brexit only, we didn’t look at all the other elements of our industrial strategy. The meetings we have with the poultry industry, the discussions, as



hon Shaik Emam has said, with the clothing textiles and footwear sector, the engagements with the steel industry, as we begin to build support and ideas for a master plan that can transform our economy.



Finally, hon members, our job is not only to focus on trading relations with the UK and Europe, but it’s to deepen the trading relationships on the African continent. Therefore, we have signed an African continental free trade area, bringing together

54 countries on the continent, 27 have already rectified that.


That is how we are going to build our economy and how we move the economy forward and how we create jobs.



I want to end by also extending condolences to the family of the late Bavelile Hlongwa, who has been such a dynamic talented young South African able to contribute so much. I think it is one of the memories that I will have that her contribution, even to the debates and discussions around Brexit has been excellent. Therefore, we have lost a great South African. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Debate concluded.






(Subject for Discussion)



Mr J S MALEMA: Members of the EFF led by deputy president, Floyd Shivambu, and secretary general, Godrich Gardee. Let us begin by passing our sincerest condolences to the ruling party and the family of Deputy Minister of Mineral Resources, Cadre Bavelile Hlongwa, on her tragic passing. It is indeed a loss not only for the ANC, but for the country at large, when a young women leader is lost prematurely on the roads of our country.



This is an indication that more work needs to be done in ensuring the safety of our people on our roads, so that we can prevent such accidents. May her soul rest in perfect peace.



We are here today to forward the struggle for development and building state capacity as enshrined in the seven cardinal



pillars of the EFF. We have witnessed a lack of direction in terms of economic development, and state capacity continues to deteriorate.



The private sector in South Africa is now bearing the fruits of its investment in Thuma Mina [Send Me] as we are presented with plans to sell off the little control over the economy that the state has. Today we carry the mandate of cleaners and security guards to, once again, provide a way forward that will benefit the poor masses of our people, develop the state and save money.



From the outset, we must illustrate to the ruling party what a developmental state looks like. A developmental state must drive economic and industrial development; it must be independent from capitalists; it must provide better services to all its people; it must build and maintain infrastructure; and build an inspired, skilled and well compensated work force. A developmental state must deliver houses, build roads, schools, hospitals, deliver water and ensure that taxes are spent efficiently.



The South African state, in its current from, does not drive the economy or deliver services because it has no capacity.

Everything that the state does is through private companies appointed through tenders. Today, government spends an estimated R800 billion through tenders. Today government appoints private companies to provide simple services such as security, gardening, travel, cleaning, general maintenance and other services.



Government and state-owned companies appoint companies to build and maintain schools, clinics, hospitals, electricity power plants, water treatment plants, sanitation plants and other infrastructure. Government also appoints consultants to develop strategies, write basic documents, reports and plans.

Essentially, what we have is a state that is run like a private company.



As South Africa, we have succumbed to the narrative that blacks do not have the capacity to govern their own affairs and that there must be control by a private sector which is dominated by white owned private companies. A private sector that has no



obligation to develop South Africa but is motivated to bleed us dry of our resources.



Inflated prices and corruption are one part of the problem with tenders. The other problem is that these companies make our people work under terrible conditions, with long hours, no medical aid and pay them below living wage. The fate of these workers is suffered by many other workers who have worked as contract workers at Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, PRASA, Transnet, Eskom, Denel, South African Airways, SAA and Airports Company of South Africa, ACSA.



The question then becomes: What is to be done? As the EFF, we propose that provincial and local government and all state-owned companies must abolish tenders and insource workers on a full- time basis. We have led by example with our councillors in municipalities, sponsoring motions of insourcing of cleaners, security guards, gardeners and general maintenance workers.



Due to the intervention and leadership of the EFF, more than


4 000 security guards are insourced in Johannesburg, with a



salary of R10 000 per month, medical aid, pension and uniform. More than 1 000 cleaners are employed with a salary of R10 000. Cleaners who used to be employed by private companies are now employed directly by the City of Johannesburg.



The EFF caucuses in Nelson Mandela Bay, City of Tshwane, and all municipalities that did not have outright winners in 2016 Local Government Elections are engaged in programmes that will lead to the insourcing of workers. While there are positive results and a correct direction, the only sustainable and long-term solution is national legislation that promotes the insourcing of workers and de-tenderising the state at all levels.



We have since started a process here in Parliament to introduce a Private Members’ Bill on insourcing. A capable state will improve the quality of work and can additionally use its procurement capacity to drive local industrialisation and development of the economy. South African government at national, provincial, and all state-owned companies must be rescued from the control of Bidvest company, which is currently



responsible for almost everything that government can do by itself. [Applause.]



The Bidvest is the biggest culprit in employment of outsourced, underpaid workers as cleaners, gardeners, general workers, and provides a lot of goods and services which the state can purchase with internal capacity. The Bill was gazetted in October 2018 and we invite all interested parties to make an input so that it can be adopted after recess and before the end of the year.



Let us all unite in saving the money of the taxpayer, and putting an end to the exploitation of workers by private companies that are in business with the state. Let us unite to build state capacity, and free the ruling party from the chains of Bidvest and BOSASA. Building state capacity through the insourcing of our workers is one of the many steps towards economic development. I thank you. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]



Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: Hon members ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON ((Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mashele, can you just hold for a while. [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: Point of order, Mr Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members?



An HON MEMBER: What would you do? What would you do? What would you do? There’s nothing you can do here! [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members? Hon members, please. [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: Stop screaming. Stop screaming, man!



An HON MEMBER: Point of order, Mr Chair. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order please! Hon members, please. Hon Gardee? [Interjections.] Hon Gardee? Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Inaudible.]



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, House Chair, can you get control of the House please?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can you please sit down? Hon members! Hon members, the behaviour is unacceptable. Please. [Interjections.] Hon members! Order, hon members! Hon members, please. Can we bring the House to order? [Interjections.] Hon members, let us not allow ourselves to deteriorate the decorum of the House. We are all responsible for it. [Interjections.] We cannot go on like this.



An HON MEMBER: He’s responsible for it.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): We are all responsible. We are all responsible. [Interjections.] We are all responsible members of this House. I repeat. [Interjections.] And each one of us takes charge of the decorum of the House. We cannot go on like this. Hon Mashele, can you take the podium?






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, why are you rising?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I’d like to take a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What’s your point of order?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, the point of order is that I would expect the presiding officer to at least request an investigation into the circumstances that have just happened. [Interjections.] You say we are all responsible for the decorum in the House. You are responsible for upholding the rules of Parliament. What has just happened here is a gross violation of the rules of Parliament and I would really request of you as a presiding officer to at least initiate an inquiry into what has just happened here. It’s not acceptable for members to be threatened in the way that they’ve been threatened. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order hon members! I have taken concern of that hon member. I’m aware of that and we’ll follow up on that. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!



Dr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, why are you rising?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: I don’t know what must be investigated, because people were talking to each other here. [Interjections.] Do we investigate people talking to each other these days?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: For real, hon Chief Whip of the DA. [Interjections.] People were talking to each other. I saw the president of the EFF speaking to another member until they finished. Now, must we even investigate what they just said there to each other? What’s going to happen? Investigate the conversations of people all over the House?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ndlozi, thank you very much.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Let’s debate insourcing, please. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ndlozi, of course we will consult Hansard to check what happened and take appropriate measures. Thank you very much. Hon member, can you continue?



Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: Hon members, good afternoon. We send our condolences to the family of our fallen heroine, Comrade Bavelile. May her soul rest in perfect peace so that she can rise in glory.



The ANC has adequately diagnosed the challenges confronting the state and makes concrete proposals to build a capable state. In the National Development Plan, NDP, the whole of chapter 13 was dedicated to building a capable and developmental state.



What our colleagues in the EFF need to understand is that building a capable state will be a gradual process that needs careful implementation. Insourcing, therefore, must be coupled with quality assurance measures to ensure that the state is able to improve its capacity in providing services to its people.



As such, the NDP notes that one of the main challenges to building a capable and developmental state is the unevenness in capacity. This leads to uneven performance at local, provincial and national government. Weaknesses in capacity and performance are most serious in historically disadvantaged areas.



The EFF, on the other hand, promised in its 2019 election manifesto that its government will insource all outsourced security guards, cleaners, gardeners and general workers, and will make an additional employment of 80 000 workers within six months. Only the EFF knows what these 80 000 additional public- sector workers would be doing and how they would fund their remuneration. We are thankful to South Africa’s voters that they were able to sift between facts and fiction. Hence, there is no EFF in government anywhere in the country.



For the ANC, insourcing is not the only panacea that addresses all the capacity challenges in the state. It is but one of the measures that is being considered by the government.



Building capacity in the state involves a system of fair and transparent performance appraisals and lifelong skills development for workers. The acknowledgement of performance, skills development and fair compensation of public servants builds loyalty of workers to the state and mitigates against the inclination towards corruption. A capable state acts decisively and removes those found guilty of misconduct so that only the most committed public servants remain in the system.



The Public Service needs skills and professionalism. This includes offering stimulating career paths and ensuring that a pipeline of potential talent and innovation is developed across all spheres of government.



A capable state invests in human capital that fully understands the constitutional mandate of each sphere of government and the



work that needs to be done to improve the lives of people on the ground.



The ANC has therefore identified the need for state-owned entities, SOEs, to deal with these capacity constraints. We cannot overemphasise the need to strengthen the governance of SOEs. The aim is for efficient, financially sound and well- governed SOEs that addresses the country's developmental objectives.



The President of the Republic of South Africa has already outlined seven priorities to deal with building a capable and developmental state, and one of the seven pillars is a capable, ethical and developmental state.



Therefore, the ANC is not only just talking about the capable and developmental state. We are not just talking about insourcing. For us, these concepts are not just ideas but the government is hard at work with implementing the programmes. Government is implementing a radical paradigm shift to a comprehensive framework inclusive of resourcing, integration of



all public-sector institutions, social partners and accountability mechanisms. This informs all levels of government planning through an integrated planning framework.



We are confident that the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, will further outline the budget priorities framework, the labour movement's involvement in the skills revolution, civil society and promoting a participatory democracy.



We will not ignore the recent report by the Auditor-General which revealed that municipalities across the country spent more than R3,4 billion on consultants and incurred underspending of more than R44 billion in the previous financial year.



As the ANC we are concerned about the continued extensive use of consultants in government. This is at the crux of outsourcing, and our manifesto provides a principled decision for government to deal with the overreliance on consultants in government. This points to the shortage of critical skills and capacity gaps at local government, as identified in the NDP.



As this House, we should strengthen oversight, not only concentrating on underexpenditure or outsourcing work to consultants by the government. We should also focus more on identifying skills gaps and assisting all spheres of government to improve state capacity.



As the government continues with insourcing workers into the public sector, let us ensure that proper capacity-building is done at lower levels and that critical skills are maintained at senior level.



The ANC, mandated with the responsibility for the wellbeing of all citizens, is looking further than insourcing. We have committed that, in facilitating the creation of employment in the Public Service, the following real interventions are being implemented:



Firstly, the government is implementing participation in public employment programmes such as the Expanded Public Works Programme through a guaranteed placement of technical vocational education and training, TVET, graduates and increasing private-



sector placement for beneficiaries of public employment programmes;



Secondly, we have rolled out the implementation of the National Minimum Wage to cover workers in domestic work, farming, forestry and other vulnerable sectors. We are now conducting oversight on the effective compliance in the implementation of the National Minimum Wage; and



Thirdly, the government is working on adequate legislation to give effect to the Constitutional Court's ruling on labour broking.



We hope that the EFF is able to acknowledge the practical and realistic interventions to address the issue of insourcing, rather than politicking. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr C BRINK: Hon House Chair, it is not difficult to understand why people would rather work as civil servants than contractors or employees of private contractors. On average, public sector wages are significantly higher than those paid in the private



sector. This is specially true for unskilled and lower skilled workers and whose favour the demand for insourcing is often made.



In the last decade the Government Wage Bill has grown faster than the wages in the private sector, faster that inflation and faster that the JSE all share index. As a ratio to Gross Domestic Product, GDP, only the United Kingdom pays more in salaries, wages and benefits to public servants than South Africa. The spending spree has not improved services and it has not improved the chances of ordinary people to get a job in this country. Now, the money now has run out, the pockets of taxpayers including men and women are empty. The DA is very concerned and cautious of demands to transfer evermore people from the payrolls of businesses to the payrolls of government.



In sourcing of staff at universities came at a massive price for students, parents and taxpayers, many of whom did not even have a university education. This is the warning, evermore people on government payroll, evermore money spent on salaries and wages of civil servants will inevitably mean less money for essential



public services, less investment on infrastructure, less insecurity for millions of South Africans who are rely on social grants and less money in the hands of families and private individuals to invest and create jobs.



The principle of the matter is this; government does not exist first and foremost for the benefit of the people who work for government. Government’s primary objective is to the South African people as a whole. The question of whether to insource a particular service comes down to this, will it benefit ordinary South Africans? In some instances it will. There are functions in government departments, municipalities and entities that can only be fulfilled in-house. The failure of government organs to fill critical vacancies has led to an over reliance on consultants and service providers and made municipalities in particular, the soft targets of state capture.



It does not follow that all government functions have to be in sourced; there are core or noncore functions in government that can be better performed id out sourced.





’n Algehele beleid, wat byvoorbeeld munisipaliteite dwing om die werkers van privaatkontrakteurs in diens te neem, sal rampspoedige finansiële gevolge hê. Munisipaliteite soos die Westrand Distrik Munisipaliteit in Gauteng en Mafube Plaaslike Munisipaliteit in die Vrystaat kan nie eers bekostig om hul bestaande werksmag te betaal nie.



Suid-Afrika se nasionale krisis is nie dat ons besoldiging te laag is nie, dit is dat ons indiensneming te laag is. Daarom moet die regering staatsbesteding verminder en die versperrings in die weg van ekonomiese groei en werkskepping verwyder.





Hon Chair, the economic reforms that the DA has championed in and outside of this House are not for the political and corporate elite, but for working men and women in particular people who are desperate to find work in this country. It is in their interest that the Public Sector Wage Bill must be lowered and not inflated. I thank you. [Applause]



Mr V PAMBO: Hon Chair, commander in chief, as part of the Fees Must Fall generation we dynamically linked our struggle to free, quality, decolonized education with the struggle for the insourcing of workers in all universities. We did so because we were first hand witnesses of the super exploitation that university workers, particularly cleaners were super exploited by companies such as Bidvest, Supercare, Servest, Impact, Fidelity and others.



While the struggle for free quality decolonized education is ongoing until total victory, we have witnessed certain victories in relation to the insourcing of workers. In a process that was led by Advocate Dali Mpofu, the national chairperson of the EFF, which included workers, students, lecturers, made sure and ensured that cleaners and gardeners were in sourced and their salaries improved from R2500 to R8000. The Wits University workers now have medical aid; they are registered for Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF [Applause.] The university contributes to their pension and they have staff educational benefits.



The Fees Must Fall generation with the full support of the EFF also fought for the insourcing of workers at institutions of higher learning such as UNISA, University of KwaZulu-Natal, UKZN, University of Pretoria and University of Cape Town, UCT [Applause.] The following institutions are also following the same process, Tshwane University of Technology, TUT, University of Venda, UNIVEN and University of Fort Hare. All these workers have realized improved working conditions and better salaries. The Private Members Bill which the EFF introduced here, in this Parliament must be extended to all institutions of higher learning, in particular universities, universities of technology and TVET colleges. Perhaps hon President, we should pass a law that every employer, whether public or private, who needs the permanent services of a cleaner, a gardener, a security guard, should employ them directly and pay them decent wages.



The issue of insourcing is not simply an issue of economics but a question of personhood and dignity. It is a question of our mothers who wake up at three in the blistering winter cold to clean toilets and wash dirty linen so that they feed their families and children. It is the question of fathers who despite



illness, wake up to clean windows and scrape floors because they can never allow their loved ones to go to bed on empty stomachs. It is a question of our brothers and sisters who have children waiting for them with growling stomachs and mouths wide open in the silent shacks of Orange Farm, Soshanguve, Soweto, Gugulethu, Khayelitsha.



But, do we continue to call this work, when their conditions that they are subjected to turn them into beings below animals, stripped of all dignity, shamed and left naked for the worlds to see. An open wound open for anybody to poke at as Fanon would say. Do we still call it work? We refuse to call what the ANC- led government is doing as work. It is barbarism, modern day slavery. South Africa is a country at the mercy of capital and the state, in its current form does nothing to change the situation. The practice of outsourcing not only undermines our economic development but leaves an already vulnerable black population in the hands of capitalists who take advantage of their desperation.



One cannot expect to have productive labour force when workers do not earn a living wage. One cannot expect to build state capacity and an independent economy when you outsource services as basic policy formulation, cleaning, energy generation, catering and security. South Africa, true to its conception in 1994 has failed to liberate itself from the dependency of imperialism which today manifests itself as private companies running the affairs that a state ordinarily should. It is imperialism, racism, because it is a particular worker of a particular African descendant who is subjected to humiliation and exploitation.



What colour are the workers who were made to drink urine? Who cleans the toilets? Who cleans the toilets of airports? Who cleans the toilets of this Parliament? Who mows the lawns of the Union Buildings? What colour are the people who you see every morning and every evening crammed at the back of bakkies? Who are drivers of these bakkies? The people who suffer these injustices are black and they suffer these injustices at the hands of white capitalists. It is because there is a system that is designed to keep them in a state of servitude. It is this



system that the EFF wants to abolish. It is these chains that we seek to unshackle. To this, we must start with abolishing outsourcing. Thank you very much.



Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Hon members, at the outset, Chair, allow me to state that the IFP is for insourcing of government workers. But, we do not support a blanket approach to insource all jobs into public service. We simply cannot afford it.



We do support a measured, constructive and conservative approach to insourcing. It should not be a norm. We say this, Chair, because we have a ballooning Public Sector Wage Bill which already takes a big slice of our ailing GDP. In this regard, a balance must be stricken, hon Chair.



We cannot afford to insource work while at the same time we speak of small business development and encouraging entrepreneurial and business ventures.



The government cannot speak of the great Fourth Industrial Revolution generation that we find ourselves in while at the



same time we are putting a lid on innovation and are slowly but surely killing private businesses and enterprise.



For example, hon Chairperson, how would anyone then be able to start a small security firm and upskill and provide training to a number of workers while the state competes with employing security officers and provides lucrative yet unsustainable packages and cushioned jobs?



Hon Chair, we are not saying that the government should not address joblessness in our country, but in the same vein, it is important that government creates stricter measures and legislative regulations and controls to ensure that no worker is ever exploited by private firms and enterprises.



The dignity of our people can never be compromised for money. It has become all too common that tender processes are flouted and has essentially become a conduit for corruption.



Outsourced work comes at a ridiculous cost to the state. The use of consultants, outsourced companies and firms is costing the



state billions of rands unnecessarily because companies inflate costs when doing business with the state which does not benefit our people. This must be addressed through insourcing.



With insourcing, we are able to retain skills in the public sector, but this must be done with sufficient skills transferring, rooting out the rot within the public service. It is our hope as the IFP that with the employment of skilled workers within the ranks of the state, that it will speed up delivery and turn over times.



More importantly, insourcing will guarantee job security for our people. As the IFP, we support the notion that insourcing is the way to go. Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]



Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chair, the hon Makhubela-Mashele said that government has the mandate to promote the wellbeing of everybody. She is quite correct. But, does government do that? No, because the government has allowed for many years, the exploitation of private contractors and consultants of government departments. You see, House Chair, it’s not a debate



of having exclusively insourcing or exclusively outsourcing. It’s to do it responsible in the interest of everybody. That’s what government does not do.



The ruling party makes decisions based on what is to the benefit of themselves and their cadres. The internal capacity in government departments and state-owned entities are lacking because of appointments made on the basis of everything except merit.



Your former President, Jacob Zuma, told the Zondo Commission in detail how the cadre deployment committee works and how that committee decides who is appointed in what state entity and in what senior official position. That’s why we have a lack of internal capacity on the one side. On the other side, it’s because your policies and policies the EFF supports like affirmative action that completely placed the emphasis on everything except merit. That’s why we have a lack of state capacity.



On the other side, House Chair, we are in a financial crisis and it’s irresponsible to think that everything must be insourced and that we must appoint more officials to do non-essential services in the government departments. Our government Wage Bill is already too high. We need responsible governance.





Laat ek ook vir die EFF sê, dis eenvoudige Wiskunde. U kan vandag alle wit mense die see injaag. Dis nie ras nie; dit gaan oor wat in Suid-Afrika aangaan.





Chase all the white people into the sea and there will still be poverty. There will still be unemployment because it’s not a racial cause of the problem. When there are people like hon Malema, who spends more on his shoes than most South Africans get in a life time on a living wage then the money will be finished and it has nothing to do with white capitalist. It has to do with your policy directions and the fact that South Africa has been governed into the ground.





Ons het verantwoordelike regering nodig, wat werklik besluite in die belang van Suid-Afrikaners neem. Dit maak nie saak of u iemand aanstel nie, maar stel die beste persoon vir die werk aan. Wanneer daar ’n kontrakteur aangestel word, stel daardie kontrakteur aan wat die werk kan doen en wat nie die regering uitbuit nie, want dit is die probleem.



Dit is die kern van die debat en nie of ons kontrakteurs moet aanstel nie, maar op grond waarvan daardie besluite geneem moet word. U stel kontrakteurs aan wat u maatjies is en wat vir u geldjies onderdeur die tafel gee. Dit is hoekom hierdie land leeggesteel is - oor die manier waarop u goed doen.



Die EFF sal nie veel verskillend regeer nie. Hulle bewys dit reeds. Hulle steel die mense se geld deur VBS. Hulle sal dit nie enigsins anders doen nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dan wil hulle hier kom staan en wit mense blameer. Kyk na uself in die spieël.




Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair. House Chair, the ACDP would firstly like to extend its condolences on the tragic passing of hon Deputy Minister, Hlongwa. Our thoughts and prayers are with her family, the ANC and her friends at this sad time.



The ACDP welcomes this debate, given the high levels of unemployment in the country. The question is however, whether state capacity will in fact be built or enhance through insourcing as opposed to outsourcing.



Should the cost be more or less the same and the service rendered the same or hopefully better, then insourcing should clearly be supported? The ACDP is aware of cases few as they may be but at municipal level where insourcing has in fact been successful and where service delivery has in fact improved.



However, on the other side, the National Treasury has warned that the ballooning Public Sector Wage Bill is unsustainable. In addition, we see, there are high levels of dissatisfaction with the level of public service rendered across the board. The



question then is rather how to improve the capacity to provide better service delivery.



It is one thing to speak of capacitating or building the state through insourcing and skills development. It is a totally different scenario to use the public sector or state-owned companies for job creation, given the unaffordable Wage Bill.



Eskom is of course a prime example of this. It presents the greatest risk to our economy as a monopoly power supplier with its R440 billion debt. Its problem is simple. It’s not generating enough money to cover its enormous cost. It has reported a staggering loss of almost R21 billion after taxes for this financial year. This is against R2,3 billion loss for last year. Its bloated staff compliment has regularly been singled out as one of the reasons for the power utilities woes.



However, as the ACDP, we were involved in the Eskom enquiry and we readily admit that the financial problems of Eskom are due to state capture, corruption and maladministration.



While we are in agreement that workers should not bear the brunt of Eskom’s poor management and political interference during the Zuma administration, it cannot be denied that Eskom is overstaffed, with some analysts saying up to 66%, when compared with power utilities elsewhere in the world. The staff compliment has increased from 33 000 to a staggering 46 000 in a decade, with the Wage Bill now standing at more than

R32 billion, up from R9,5 billion in 2007.



So, while the ACDP appreciates the need to increase and improve the state capacity, insourcing must be both cost effective and enhance service delivery. I thank you.



Mr V ZUNGULA: Chairperson, firstly, I want to extend my condolences to the family and the organisation of the Deputy Minister Bavelile, BV. May her soul rest in peace!



South Africa is a country that is still recovering from atrocities that were perpetuated in the workplace. The die hard labour broking industry continues to be a sore thumb sticking out and a measure of failure in the labour law regime. We agree



with those who say labour broking is modern day slavery. It cannot be that our young democracy is still mired in cheap labour and humans for sale controversies brought about labour broking where the brokers make a lot more money than the workers who do the actual work.



In fact, contrary to popular belief in-sourcing is actually cheaper than outsourcing in the long run. The fact that the outsourced worker is paid less than the in-sourced worker does not mean government is saving because the broker still gets the difference. So it is a false saving.



As the ATM we fully support in-sourcing because it provides decent work conditions for workers. Workers are able to enjoy benefits like medical aid, various other social security benefits as well as job security. We however call on management to provide workers with the necessary tools, equipments and regular training so that employees are not set up for failure. In-sourcing has many benefits and should improve service delivery because the populace would be served by happier employees. We have tons of trained artisans who can be in-



sourced to do the work for the state. We cannot have a government that issues tenders for even minor maintenance such as fixing potholes. The appointment of contractors for even minor maintenance is a waste of resources.



Johannesburg is a good example of the benefits of in-sourcing and how we can build a state capacity through in-sourcing. In- sourcing has an anticorruption effect in that employees are not part of tenders that may have been awarded by corrupt means.



We however as the ATM want to caution and warn the country that as long as section 22 of the Constitution is left as it is, in- sourcing may be reversed in the future. Section 22 continues to provide refuge for labour brokers who may argue that freedom of trade as expressed in section 22 also includes labour brokering. We therefore call on for the review of section 22 so that rights of workers to be in stable jobs are not threatened. The ATM will work with progressive unions to ensure that the dignity of the workers is permanently restored. Thank you.



Mr T H JAMES: Hon House Chair, I want to join those who are passing condolences to the family of Comrade Bavelile. We lost a very dedicated cadre of our movement. The ANC’s vision of a developmental state necessitates a public sector that provides quality public goods and services to all; is people-centred and people driven; and is geared towards development. The ANC is not oblivious to the capacity constraints that are currently being experienced in the public sector. The consideration to outsource is informed on a case by case basis and is employed after due consideration of the availability of resources and the specific needs at the time. The process has also been applied in specific cases where skills transfer and training to build capacity of public sector employees has necessitated. It is important to note that outsourcing is not done for its own sake but its necessity depends on capacity across government hence it is considered and employed on a case by case basis.



The rationalisation for outsourcing finds expression in cases where it is not cost-effective for government to build capacity in-house to deliver a service in the short-term. The decision to use an external service provider is not taken on an arbitrarily.



The Municipal Systems Act has a list of considerations that must be taken into to account. These include a cost-benefit analysis of the option to outsource or use in-house services and the capacity and potential future capacity of the municipality to deliver the services in-house.



Outsourcing of public services was initially viewed as a means of providing opportunities for small businesses to enter certain markets and grow. State-owned enterprises provided the opportunity for such growth by allowing small businesses the opportunity to participate as bidders in procurement of certain services in its value chain. The challenges of outsourcing have been manifest, and we want to note that. From challenges in the tender system and declining quality in output, that has not met contractual expectations, has brought into question the notion. Hence the manifesto commitment of the ANC arises from this experience.



Outsourcing has lost credibility and public trust owing to the fact that it has been used as a vehicle for enriching some individuals at the expense of the workers who in most cases are



vulnerable due to the fact that they are low skilled, low paid, have low or no bargaining power. In addition, the cost of contracting out has in many cases been far more expensive.



We are mindful of the fact that both, the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and the Municipal Finance Management Act MFMA prescribe certain procedures that need to be followed.

Outsourcing has resulted in exploitative practices by employers of contracted workers and in many cases weakened the organised working class to the benefit of a few.



Services organisations all point to this. The assumption that contracted workers will have the experience of those they replace has not been validated. The emerging view that informs the manifesto draft is that it may be better to employ the outsourced workers in-house and retain their skills as a means of reinforcing and building state capacity.



The practise of in-sourcing has the advantage of providing better conditions of employment for the workers as well as job security. While this practise is desirable it can only be



exercised within the limits of the needs of government and or its enterprises with a view to the availability of financial resource. In-sourcing is not as the sponsors of the motion want us to believe, that it is the panacea for building state capacity. Building state capacity is a far larger project that involves far more than in-sourcing workers. It cannot be an end in itself but rather an assessment on a case by case basis with the desirability for outsourced workers to be in-sourced. It must be the result of a conscious plan that takes into account all factors to ensure sustainability of the jobs created.



Many countries have experimented with the two practices of in- sourcing and outsourcing and the results have often varied.

Britain employed the practise of outsourcing with an objective of driving down state spending. The practise yielded about 25% reduction in spending while there was a notable rise in corruption-related scandals, with regards to the awarding of contracts, with big businesses crowding out small firms from the bidding process.



The cost of outsourcing of public services has been borne by ordinary South Africans who suffer from poorer service delivery as the companies who get the contracts are prone to cost-cutting in order to maximise profits. This has manifested itself in the collapse of certain functions and corruption leading to the overall weakening of the state. The primary objective of the companies that benefit from outsourcing is to generate profit for its shareholders, and this approach leads to accumulation at the expense of the workers.



In-sourcing is proving to be a more developmental exercise by as a result of the job security, better wages and purchasing power and increased labour stability. In-sourcing has been exercised locally in many different areas where it has worked. The practise has been exercised by universities. In-sourcing does not just ensure fair and decent employment, but it also serves to protect the dignity, safety and integrity of the workers.

This in turn creates loyalty and high morale amongst workers and consequently it translates to high quality services



So when we speak about this we don’t speak because we want to sound more revolutionary than others, but we want to better the conditions of those who are doing work and the conditions of those who are receiving our services. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr S N AUGUST: Hon Chairperson, in challenging economic times of massive unemployment and poverty, the idea of a state that provides decent jobs for its entire people can be intoxicating. But there’s a factory built flaw. It is precisely in economic times such as these that bloated governments and staff complements at state-owned companies radically curtail the state’s ability to deliver services to the people.



We have seen the mismanagement and debt that have afflicted state-owned companies. What security is there for workers if companies like Eskom must continue to borrow money from government to pay staff and operational costs? When the wage bills are paid, just a few crumbs remain to provide critical services to those who most need them, and to narrow inequity.



Workers are the backbone of economies. The more people have jobs the more people have money to spend and the more the economy grows. The more the economy grows, the further we progress down the road of restoring dignity to the majority of people in our land whom the apartheid government sought to dehumanize. The State’s role is not to employ the unemployed, but together with the private sector to create good conditions in which the people develop skills appropriate to the economy, and an economic environment conducive to investment, growth and job creation.



The private sector is not a secondary partner in this quest. The State procures billions of rands worth of goods and services from privately owned companies every week. Therefore, we have a right to know that workers’ rights are adequately protected, that they are being upskilled, earning market related salaries, and that the companies are operating within the ambit of our labour law. When we have created these conditions across the business landscape, and fixed government and its state-owned entities, perhaps we’ll be in a more appropriate position to discuss in-sourcing. I thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, let me start of by saying that, you know we can not have a blanket approach in terms of

in-sourcing; however in-sourcing can have a very positive impact on the economy and let me tell you how. When you deal with consultancy - I will give a good example- consultancy and companies that do consultancy are paid an X-amount of money. One or two people benefit out of this organisation, but if you rather use that money and in-sourced, you would employed 20, 30 or 40 people, 20, 30 or 40 people will spend that money in the economy, will develop and enhanced the economy but what do the one, two or three people do? They use 10 % or 2 % of the money, the rest of it, they are holding it. It’s not circulating in the economy. So that is what out-sourcing basically does, if you encourage out-sourcing in the country.



Now, one of the things we should be looking at, if you take schools, if you take police stations, if you take clinics, if you take hospitals, we should be building them through in- sourcing our own people. Given the fact that we have serious challenges particular with Eskom and others, why not consider a public-private situation where you get the public sector



involved with the private sector and then together we create this industry, and you build your schools, you build your clinics, you build hospitals, and you build your police stations rather out sourcing everything with the tender system.



We have said before that the tender system at the moment, a loss to the fiscals is in the region of R200-40 billion as a result of corruption, that is starting from local level alone and I will give a good example, take Jozini, there is a contract that was given from a to b, from b to c, from c to d, and d only got paid R500 000 but the contract was R2 million. So basically what is it that is happening, people in between are enriching themselves and that is why the level of inequality in South Africa is continuing. So if you want to address the inequality and create more jobs maybe we need to consider that, let’s build our schools, let’s build our own colleges, let’s build our own hospitals, let’s build our own police stations and that’s the route to go if you to create a better economy in South Africa at the moment.



We have serious challenge in skill shortages, the TVET colleges are still not speaking to skill’s needs of the country, and they are not! They working in silos and that’s why you going to have to continue despite a circular in 2016-17 about all out sourcing and limiting it is not happening because you don’t have the skills in the country. Thank you.



Mr Z N MBHELE: House Chairperson, a starting point will be just to respond to some points made by previous speakers about the shortcomings and deficiencies in some out-sourcing situations. The key point there is that it’s not an inherent nature of out- sourcing that causes challenges like those mentioned by Shaik Emam, it is the misapplication of out-sourcing. If you have open competitive and unbiased bidding processes then you will not have that kind of corruption. In that vein a major risk that reckless and indiscriminate in-sourcing of the kind proposed by EFF is that it will be squeezing the opportunity space for small businesses.



For better or worse, the State is one of the largest single buyers of goods and services in our economy and its purchasing



power can and should be used to create and expand economic opportunities that promote broad prosperity. There are thousands of small businesses that benefit from government procurements and in so doing; they provide employments, labour absorption, skills development opportunities and livelihoods for thousands of households.



At a time of high and rising unemployment, the last thing our country needs is further job losses from ill-considered and misapplied in sourcing policy. Rather, as the DA has repeatedly stated, the number one item on the agenda must be job creation, economic growth and consequently disregarding anything which undermines that agenda. That is why part of the DA’s policy approach to supporting small businesses is advocating for supply chain inclusion and implementing it as far as practically possible where we govern. We are committed to being an opportunity party, leading opportunity governments that build an opportunity society for all.



I would be remiss if I failed to highlight a less obvious but key danger concerning this debate on in-sourcing. Without



wanting to sound McCarthyist, this danger is most aptly labelled the Red Menace. When we consider that the EFF wants to nationalise almost anything of economic value that it lays sight upon, this impulse combined with”vacuum cleaner" in-sourcing of sucking in all contract workers indiscriminately into full-time state employment would result in little more than a huge aristocracy job scheme, ready for manipulation as a patronage system for politically partisan or other narrow ends. That is the cronyist disease we must reveal as lurking within the Trojan horse of the EFF’s in sourcing rhetoric [Applause.] When considered in view; of their full and horrifying socialist vision. If any one thought On-Point Engineering was bad, wait until the Marxist Leninist nightmare of social engineering comes true [Applause.]



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Chairperson, insourcing ... [Inaudible.]


... as good as good as it may be, but you have got to do check and balances. The complexity of this debate is amplified by the current economic woes that South Africa finds itself in. Any motion that seeks to insource employees working under government



entities has a good chance of being affirmed by the proletariat and the working class.



The dictatorship of the proletariat dictum, ideologically, sounds like a noble and pro-communist slogan. As socialists, there are questions perhaps that we need to interrogate. In economic hardships, should we still pursue measures that will cripple our economy? We should guard against that. Will the insourcing of workers by government entities improve our social and economic capital in areas such as health, education, infrastructure and development? If the public service wage bill is bloated, what end in sight will the insourcing of workers by government entities achieve?



We are grappling with these questions. Our research data indicates that insourcing workers without tightening the retrenchment requirements will be an exercise in futility. We also have gathered that insourcing workers in turbulent economic times will lead to a fiscal crisis.



To achieve this motion, we will have to grow our economy by 5% annually and then pay our national debt, which currently sits at R3 billion. We will also address issues of policy certainty and investor confidence, and reskill our workers. Of course, we must never lose sight of the pressing priorities that confront us. As Dikgang Moseneke puts it, “There are times when it is more appropriate to become a pine tree than a willow tree.” This is not the time, I believe.



We need quality jobs so as to develop the state and grow our economy. We should guard against the workers becoming victims of circumstances and the fourth industrial revolution. We should also guard against the increasing number of unemployment in our country. The fact is: The capital state will never create proper and decent jobs. I thank you.



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, let me share with the House that after the ANC dismissed 200 workers who cleaned the street of Johannesburg, from the City of Johannesburg. The DA eventually insourced all of them! Thank you very much to the DA for setting an example to the country to insource workers. [Applause.] Al



Jama-ah played a very important role in that. Our one councillor managed to assist the workers and eventually succeeded. That’s why they want to make him the new mayor of the City of Johannesburg.



Al Jama-ah supports the position of hon Julius Malema to build state capacity and government departments should stop supporting labour brokers and clients that help to oppress workers, denying them decent work. [Applause.] South Africa is a signatory to the International Labour Organisation’s Conventions on Decent Work. Each year, an award is made in November and President Mandela was the first recipient, followed by our darling Winnie Mandela. Five Parliaments have failed the country in not implementing this undertaking.



Decent Work Agenda requires workers to have dignity and enjoy pension funds, medical aid facility benefits, job security as well as opportunities for promotion and skills development. It is time we ask how many workers are working for the state in all three tiers of government that do not enjoy decent work and start to give them the dignity our Constitution demands, and not



the job impoverishment that they have to suffer. Al Jama-ah gives thanks to the EFF for raising this great challenge and to hon Pembela for stating the case strongly. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Ms N W A MAZZONE: Hon Chairperson, firstly, May I extend my sincerest condolences to the ANC and to the family of Deputy Minister Hlongwa. May she rest in peace! She was a real asset to our country and her loss is felt by us all. [Applause.] Over

10 million South Africans are unemployed. State-owned entities have been used as an ANC employment agency for years. These employment agencies have led to the country’s economy quagmire that it finds itself in, and given all that we know about state capture; it has all but destroyed our economy.



We simply do not have the luxury to waste time in hoping that state-owned entities will turn around the economy. The harsh truth has been thrust upon us. Even the strongest opponents to privatisation, or at least part thereof, have to realise that it is not business as usual. Doing the same thing over and over



again but getting the same result, always hoping for a different outcome, is nothing less than insanity.



A free market economy contributes to political and civil freedom. It contributes to economic freedom and transparency and it ensures competitive markets. Supply and demand create competition, which helps ensure that the best goods or services are provided to the consumers at the lowest possible price. The country needs to become investment friendly. It must be a safe and easy place to do business. We need to create an environment of competition that allows more investors to come in, open up and create jobs!



State-owned entities, on their own, can lead us only to the direct path of the IMF’s door. There is absolute proof, undeniable evidence that state-owned entities pose the biggest risk to the country and the economy. There are many problems associated with the use of state-owned entities as employment agencies. When the government forces businesses or state-owned entities to hire only union workers, it discriminates against



non-union workers, causing them to be at a severe disadvantage or quite frankly permanently unemployed.



Unions exist primarily to keep out competition. They are state- protected cartels like any other. We cannot risk being held at ransom. It is too easy and it happens too often. It’s because political ideology is trumping economic pragmatism. I can assure you of this: I, today, talk on behalf of pensioners who have had their salaries stolen from the VBS Bank; and I speak on behalf of the security guards and cleaners at VBS Bank that now no longer have their jobs.



How much more can we endure? How many more times do we need to catastrophically fail at service delivery until we finally realise that cadre job deployment is a disaster and that only the best person for the job should be considered? The DA will work to get a job in every home and to ensure that the markets are open, competition is allowed to flourish and that legislation ensures the growth of the economy. [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson and hon members, good afternoon. At the outset, we would like to welcome the debate about some of the proposed approaches and efforts to build the capacity of the state to deliver quality services to our citizens. This debate is very critical because it touches on a strategic challenge that faces our country, which is the creation and retention of decent jobs for our people.



While it is important to respond directly to the proposed focus on government and state entities with regard to insourcing of workers, it is also critical that we approach the issue of jobs holistically as to involve all the critical players in our economy. We must work with our social partners and the private sector in finding solutions that will build the capacity of the state while creating and protecting decent jobs for our people.



As government, we have done a great deal of work to bring together the collective energies of these different role players in an effort to find a lasting solution to the strategic challenge of unemployment, inequality and poverty. The stimulus package that we adopted following our successful jobs summit



requires the effort of all of us to achieve our social and economic goals, especially on the issue of decent jobs.



Regarding the specific issue raised by the hon Malema, we have to admit that our experience has confirmed, over the years, that outsourcing of jobs generally carries with it negative social challenges and a far reaching impact on job security and employee benefits such as pension and medical aid etc.



The social effects of this are experienced in varying degrees by the outsourced workers. It is trite and research has shown overwhelmingly that in the context of unregulated outsourcing, outsourced and casual workers often end up with lower wages and fewer employee benefits than they actually deserve.



This is why, hon Chairperson and members, the ANC has, in its Manifesto, committed to develop a short and medium-term plan to insource support services back into the public service. A cost benefit analysis will have to be embarked upon which will determine the pace and scale of the implementation of this program.



As this is not a new call or idea, we will continue to build on the work that we already started almost ten years ago in the eThekwini Municipality where we insourced the security management units under community and emergency services. This program has proven to be successful and we will continue to explore other areas of intervention to accelerate this program.



A security company will charge a client R14 500 for a grade C entry level guard and they will pay the guard R4 377 per month as their basic salary. A government employed security guard compare the same as if the employee is procured from the private sector. So, it becomes more expensive for government and the client company.



In this current financial year we have also started a pilot project of insourced refuse removal at Umlazi covering all the municipal areas. In a few months of implementation of this project, the metro is already seeing positive results in terms of the quality of services and feedback from residents.



Hon members will recall that we are seized with the overarching process of the reconfiguration of government as part of the broader exercise of the macro configuration of the state, and part of that work is to explore workable models in employment practice, talent search, performance management and development which in part will involve options for outsourcing where it makes economic sense to do so. Ultimately, the macro configuration of the state project will inform us of the nature and character of the public service that we seek to build for the future.



It is important that we build a public service that has adequate systems to measure performance and the delivery of quality services in particular. Driven by the policy direction as contained in the National Development Plan, we are also exploring cutting edge initiatives to make the public service an attractive employer of choice. This includes training and development programs in critically scarce skills areas.



We cannot achieve this without providing an attractive package to these young people which will not only guarantee their career



growth path and development but also a sustainable future in the job market.



In welcoming the debate on insourcing of government services, the challenge for all of us is to try and use our collective wisdom to find solutions for the social and economic challenges of our country. It is also our belief that insourcing of non- essential services will result in the following: Improved service delivery, decent jobs and job security for all workers and reduced budget expenditure in the public purse.



As members of this Parliament, we must assist government efforts towards the achievement of decent jobs and increase in real employment which will also boost to our economy. There is no time for grandstanding, our country needs all the energies we can deploy to end the scourge of unemployment, poverty and inequality. Let us work towards the implementation of the ANC’s Election Manifesto.



Comrade Bavelile was writing her own chapter in South African history books. Losing her so young is even more devastating



because her story has now been cut short. She had so much to offer and touched so many lives as she journeyed through life. Condolences to her family, colleagues, friends and her family, the ANC. May her soul rest in eternal peace.





Hamba kahle mbokodo. [Ihlombe.]



Mr J S MALEMA: I think that the notes of the Minister were supposed to be given to the hon Shelly because she didn’t necessarily understand the subject matter and therefore she is extremely challenged. She asked a question to the EFF about where the money will come from when it said that in its manifesto it will create 80 000 jobs. The reality is that there are 123 000 job vacancies now budgeted for. That is where the money is, sister. Just check; you can even google - it is simple. [Laughter.]



There can be more 80 000 jobs created now with the existing budget. You know, that is why we will quickly miss people like Bavelile because when the young people stand here they should



represent ideas and not some backwardness which is unfounded. I think the DA should have asked our mayor in Johannesburg to come and engage in this debate ... [Interjections.] ... because our mayor in Johannesburg, the EFF mayor Mashaba ... [Interjections.] ... understands the insourcing much better because during outsourcing, we were spending R571 million while during insourcing we spent R466 million, meaning there is a saving of R100 million from insourcing.



The motion is tabled by the EFF and it is successful. [Applause.] There is no way that insourcing can create jobs because we all know that the private sector is driven by profit. They always inflate prices. If a can of Coke is R20,00, once you outsource it by saying that a company should buy it, they will sell it to the state at R80,00. We all know that, they have never sold it at R19,00 or R21,00. It is simple logic. So, it is the insourcing which is going to save us jobs.



The FF Plus member says that the affirmative action is the one that made the state capacity to be bad because we prioritized affirmative action. He is simply saying it is white people who



are excelling by doing good things and blacks are not good. Racists will never hide their racism. At every given opportunity, they will always show who they are. There is no such a thing as affirmative action creating lack of state capacity. If we insource; we save money; we create more jobs and our economy will grow. Thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Mr Q R DYANTYI /         kn (19/09/2019) / TAKE STOPS AT 16:35








(Draft Resolution)



Mr Q R DYANTYI: Chairperson, the ANC move without notice:



That the House –



(1) welcomes the appointment of Judge Zukisa Laura Lumka Tshiqi and Judge Steven Arnold Majiedt as Judges of the Constitutional Court, with effect from 1 October 2019;



(2) notes that President made the appointments after consulting the Chief Justice of the Republic of South Africa and the leaders of the parties represented in the National Assembly;



(3) recognises that Judge Tshiqi holds a Baccalaureus Procurationis, BProc, degree and a Postgraduate Diploma in Labour Law and that Judge Majiedt holds the BA Law and Literally Legum Baccalaureus, LLB, degrees from the University of the Western Cape;



(4) believes that the combined experience of both justices and will further enrich jurisprudence and will play a pivotal role at the Constitutional Court; and



(5) wishes Judge Zukisa Laura Lumka Tshiqi and Judge Steven Arnold Majiedt much success in their new positions.



Agreed to.








(Draft Resolution)



Ms M B HICKLIN: Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the Democratic Alliance without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes that the Republic of South Africa is experiencing critical problems with the training of nurses and stands to face a looming training crisis by the end of this year if delays at key regulatory authorities are not finalised;



(2) further notes that to date, very few private and public institutions have been accredited by the SA Nursing Council to offer courses in nursing following a change in the curriculum and training requirements;



(3) further notes that the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology has failed to declare public nursing colleges as institutions of higher education;



(4) recognises that institutions that are currently accredited will not be allowed to continue offering training in the old legacy programmes which come to an end on 31 December, which will negatively impact on the production of new nurses;



(5) further understands that this scope of post basic training which will negatively be impacted includes among disciplines; preoperative intensive care unit, ICU; trauma, midwifery, neonatal intensive and paediatric care;



(6) acknowledges that the current compliment of nursing staff is an aging population;



(7) notes that the training of additional nurses is imperative if the healthcare sector is to offer the appropriate care for all;



(8) further notes that the government is to avert the looming shortage of more than 400 000 nurses by 2025; and



(9) I call on the Minister, Dr Mkhize, to intervene in terms of section 17 of the Nursing Act, Act 25 to 33 to ensure that the regulations are changed. [Time expired.]



Motion not agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms N R MASHABELA: Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the EFF to move without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes that Rajeke Primary School, at Rajeke Village, Bolobedu in Limpopo, was built by local residents who wanted to ensure that their kids got education almost three decades ago;



(2) further notes that there has been no improvement in physical infrastructure at the school, teaching and learning still takes place in dilapidated mud structures which are close to collapse because of lack of maintenance;



(3) acknowledges that the classrooms have big cracks, exposing both learners and educators to serious danger and to the unforgiving cold during winter months;



(4) further acknowledges that the school has no access to proper sanitation, with only two pit toilets for learners and educators, there is no access to water too, most windows are broken and the floor is full of holes;



(5) further notes that this is not the way African learners should still be learning almost 25 years after the attainment of political freedom; and



(6) calls on the Department of Basic Education to intervene and see to it that the school is rebuilt as soon as possible.



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms B P MABE: Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes that 12 September 2019 marked 42 years since Steve Biko was killed;



(2) further notes that Steve Bantu Biko succumbed to multiple injuries sustained while in police custody, having travelled in the back of a police van from Port Elizabeth to Pretoria, naked, manacled and unconscious;



(3) recalls that Biko was critical to the formation of student movements such as the South African Students Organisation, in 1968, which had been formed as a black alternative to the liberal National Union of South African Students;



(4) recognises that his inspirational quotes played a pivotal role in conscientising the black masses to love themselves without inhibitions which is still relevant today;



(5) further recognises that Steve Biko was a fearless, outspoken and most recognisable member of the Black Consciousness Movement who confronted the apartheid government mainly on students’ grievances; and



(6) calls upon South Africans to continue to commemorate Steve Biko, spread his message in order to keep his memory alive as his teachings are still relevant and contribute a great deal to the national dialogue.



Agreed to.







(Draft Resolution)



Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party I move without notice:



That the House –



(1) conveys its deepest condolences to the friends and family of musician, Thamsanqa Simphiwe Shobede, popularly known as Thami;



(2) notes that he passed on at Kalafong Hospital in Atteridgeville, Pretoria, on Thursday, 12 September 2019, following a short illness;



(3) further notes that Thami made a name for himself in 2016 on season 12 of Idols SA where he was the runner-up;



(4) recognises that his untimely death has left many of his peers and fans devastated; and



(5) understands that Thami had a unique talent, that saw him gain legions of fans and that he will not be forgotten because he had a lot more to offer to the entertainment industry in South Africa. May your soul rest in eternal peace!



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms T BREEDT: Chairperson, the FFPlus move without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes that during the past two weeks a number of Young Farmer of the Year provincial winners were announced;



(2) further notes that a record number of the finalists during this year’s provincial competitions were women;



(3) hereby acknowledges these achievements of women in agriculture, but also acknowledges that more still needs to be done to promote women in agriculture; and



(4) congratulates Ms Anita Brown, Gauteng Young Farmer of the Year, who is the first woman to win such a competition and wishes her well in the national competition to be announced later this year.



Agreed to.







(Draft Resolution)



Mr G MAGWANISHE: Chairperson, the ANC move without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes with sadness the tragic death of a well-known, partially-sighted state attorney, Mr Tswaledi Webster Sekwati, on Monday 9 September 2019;



(2) further notes that Mr Sekwati was dressed in legal robes, carrying a leather briefcase and guiding himself with his white stick, was doing his usual morning walk at 7am, when he was knocked down by a minibus taxi;



(3) acknowledges that Mr Sekwati was regarded as the quintessential public servant during his tenure at the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development,



who immersed himself in the country’s justice system with great aplomb;



(4) further acknowledges that his 25 years of public service established him as a formidable reservoir of legal knowledge;



(5) believes that he was truly a remarkable South African whose visual impairment was never an obstacle as he rose above it to become an impeccable public servant; and



(6) conveys its condolences to the family, friends and colleagues with whom Mr Sekwati shared his life.



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms M E SUKERS: Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes with sadness the tragic passing away of 20-year- old Qaadir Allen Cleophas;



(2) further notes that he was allegedly gunned down on the evening of Wednesday, 11 September 2019, while walking in the street from his uncle’s house;



(3) recalls that Qaadir was an arts student and started his own barber business to pay for his studies;



(4) further recalls that Qaadir died in hospital, while four other people were wounded in this same incident, including two mothers, Zaida Bester and Sharne van Niekerk;



(5) believes that these painful incidents highlight the war-zone situation citizens face in areas such as Manenberg;



(6) understands that our youth are robbed of their future and that any semblance of normality does not exist anymore; and that we now have no safe areas in this beautiful but tortured country of ours;



(7) conveys its condolences and prayers to the entire family, relatives and close friends of Qaadir Allen Cleophas; and



(8) wishes a speedy recovery and prayers for those wounded on Wednesday night, including the two women Zaida Bester and Sharne van Niekerk



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)


Ms T L MARAWU: Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the House –



(1) welcomes the Pretoria High Court judgment which found Nicholas Ninow, infamously known as the “Dros rapist”, guilty on three of the four charges levelled against him, namely rape, drug possession and defeating the ends of justice;



(2) notes that the detailed events of this crime were placed on record, where a 7-year old was violated;



(3) further notes that on average 113 cases of rape are reported in South Africa each day;



(4) wishes the victim and her family recovery during this period; and



(5) calls on the South African Police Service to establish a specialised unit that will tactfully deal with gender-based violence in South Africa.



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)





Dr A LOTRIET: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:



Dat die Huis-



(1) kennis neem dat die digter, skrywer, kunstenaar en aktivis, mnr Breyten Breytenbach, op 16 September sy 80ste verjaardag gevier het.



(2) verder kennis neem dat Breytenbach sedert sy eerste gepubliseerde werk, Die ysterkoei moet sweet, in 1964,



’n onskatbare bydrae tot die Afrikaanse letterkunde en leefwêreld gelewer het, en dat hy vandag tereg as een van die grootste lewende Afrikaanse digters beskryf kan word;



(3) erken dat Breytenbach meermale bekroon en op verskeie maniere vereer is, ondermeer deur ere doktersgrade van die Universiteit van die Wes-Kaapland en die Universiteit van KwaZulu-Natal, sowel as ’n aantal internasionale toekennings;



(4) verder erken dat hy ’n aktiewe anti-apartheids aktivis was en gedurende apartheid een van die groep wit Afrikaansspred=kendes was wat hulle aktief beywer het vir die afskaffing van die onmenslike sisteem;



(5) ook kennis neem dat Breytenbach van mening is dat Afrikaans ’n soepeltaal is en dat hy eens gestel het dat hy juis Afrikaans kan bevry van die slegte beeld wat dit gedurende apartheid opgedoen het, deur om in Afrikaans



te skryf, sodat dit gebruik kan word om die wêreld te verbeter;



(6) ook erken dat deur sy bydraes, Breytenbach ondermeer gehelp het om Afrikaans te bevry van taal van die onderdrukker, tot een van ons elf amptelike landstale wat met trots deur ’n groot deel van ons multikulturele bevolking gepraat word; en



(7)        mnr Breytenbach gelukwens met sy verjaarsdag en erkenning gee en bedank vir sy enorme kulturele bydrae.









(Draft Resolution)



Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the House –



(1) notes that the collapse of governance at Enoch Mgijima Local Municipality in the Eastern Cape has negatively affected the social, health and general well-being of the people of that municipality;



(2) further notes that workers at the municipality downed tools, protesting because they are owed significant amounts of money by the municipality and that as a result, services to the communities have been halted;



(3) acknowledges that the inability of the municipality to ensure that there is a sustainable supply of water to the residents of the municipality has affected the people the most;



(4) further acknowledges that people’s toilets have been blocked, drains are leaking and raw sewerage is racing down the streets, endangering the health of the people; and



(5) calls on the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to intervene to resolve the governance crisis at Enoch Mgijima Municipality, because failure to do so will be condemning people to sub-human living conditions.



Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)



Ms B MALULEKE: Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the House –



(1) welcomes the news that two South African athletes, Caster Semenya and Sunette Viljoen, will be officially awarded gold and silver medals respectively, eight years after the 2011 World Athletics Championship;



(2) further notes that the duo will be awarded the medals at the upcoming International Association of Athletics



Federations, IAAF, World Championships in Doha on


2 October 2019, following the disqualification of the original winners from Russia by the IAAF for doping violations;



(3) understands that Semenya will not be competing at this year’s world championships, but the IAAF will hand her medal to Athletics South Africa, ASA, in Doha;



(4) acknowledges that with this award Semenya will now be a triple world champion after also winning in 2009 and 2017, and that Viljoen’s award adds to her medals since winning bronze in 2015; and



(5) congratulates the South African athletes for their achievements and making the country proud.



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, on behalf of the NFP, I hereby move without notice:



That the House—



(1) notes with concern the utterances of senior politicians in creating racial division in the country;



(2) also notes that these utterances give rise to hatred and racial tension;



(3) further notes that this is tantamount to hate speech;



(4) accepts that, unless addressed appropriately, these utterances will lead to civil unrest in the country;



(5) condemns any acts of racial tension and division caused by reckless statements or utterances by Members of this House;



(6) puts measures in place to prevent the behaviour of hiding behind parliamentary privilege and/or protection; and



(7) ensures that privilege does not lead to an abuse of power.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately, hon Shaik Emam, your motion was not circulated. Hence I will not put the question. Thank you. [Interjections.]






(Draft Resolution)



Mr O M MATHAFA: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:



That the House—



(1) notes that South African boxing legend Gerrie Coetzee’s achievements will now be captured on film, with the announcement of a feature film entitled Gerrie: the tale of Africa’s first world heavyweight champ;



(2) understands that the executive producer of the movie, Kenddrie Utuk, of American film company Fontabila Productions, is currently in Cape Town to finalise logistics and secure venues for the production which will begin in Cape Town later this year;



(3) acknowledges that Gerrie, nicknamed “The Boksburg Bomber” competed from 1974 to 1986, in 1993 and in 1997 and was the first boxer from the African continent to fight and win a world heavyweight championship, having held the World Boxing Association, WBA, title in 1983;



(4) further acknowledges that he was honoured at the Hollywood and African Prestigious Awards in Los Angeles in November 2017; and



(5) appreciates the recognition of Gerrie’s outstanding professional accomplishments.



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Dr M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:



That the House—



(1) commends the law enforcement agencies for arresting a most wanted suspect for housebreaking in Durban Central;



(2) notes that the suspect has allegedly been breaking into people’s homes for nearly 20 years;



(3) further notes that the 36-year-old man was arrested at a hideout in KwaMashu, north of Durban;



(4) recalls that the suspect was wanted for housebreaking cases that were reported from 2002, from eThekwini up to Mandeni in the north and Scottburgh in the south;



(5) understands that he faced at least 15 cases of housebreaking in various courts in KwaZulu-Natal; and



(6) congratulates the Durban Central police officers on work well done, especially the intelligence information



Agreed to.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms V VAN DYK: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice



That the House –



(1) notes that - Ms Louzanne Coetzee, a profoundly blind South African Paralympic athlete, broke yet another national record on 30 August 2019 at the World Para Athletics Grand Prix 2019 held in Paris, France;



(2) further notes that Ms Coetzee clocked a personal best time of 4:51:65, improving on the record she set for the South African 1 500m T11 classification (totally blind);



(3) acknowledges that Ms Coetzee is also the world record holder for the 5 000m event and the African record- holder for the 800m event;



(4) recognises that Ms Coetzee’s time clocked in Paris has qualified her to participate in the 1 500m event at her second Paralympic Games in Tokyo, Japan next year, where she has already qualified to participate in the marathon;



(5) further acknowledges that Ms Coetzee, who was born with undeveloped retinas in Bloemfontein, has not only overcome adversity to become an inspiring and successful athlete, but is currently busy completing her Master’s Degree in Social Cohesion and Reconciliation Studies at the University of the Free State; and



(6) congratulates Ms Coetzee on all her achievements and wishes her well in all her endeavours.



Agreed to.





(Draft Resolution)



Mr M G E HENDRIKS: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice



That the House –



(1) congratulates Dr Fanelwa Ngece-Ajayi, a senior lecturer in physical chemistry at the University of the Western Cape (UWC);



(2) acknowledges the prestigious National Research Foundation research excellence awarded to her for emerging researchers;



(3) notes that she received:



(a) the award for ground-breaking work at UWC’s SensorLab in the field of TB/HIV drug metabolism enzyme electro-active sensor development; and



(b) also a green nano-technology award;



(4) further notes that this award includes her outstanding work as a researcher and a mentor to young researchers;



(5) remembers that Ngece-Ajayi was a member of the South African winning team in 2017 at the US Department of States TechWomen Programme; and



(6) recalls that she was identified as one of South Africa’s 2018 Inspiring Fifty Women in Technology



Agreed to.



South Africa’s Dr Jackie King




(Draft Resolution)



Mr M A DIRKS: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice



That the House –



(1) notes that - South Africa’s Dr Jackie King was named the 2019 Stockholm Water Prize Laureate for her game- changing contributions to global river management;



(2) further notes that the prize is the world’s most prestigious water award and honours women, men and organisations that have made extraordinary water- related achievements;



(3) understands that Dr King transformed the way people think, talk and work with water as a flow of life;



(4) further understands that through her work, she has advanced the scientific understanding of water flows, giving decision-makers tools to assess the real costs and benefits of river-system development;



(5) believes that her work will assist decision-makers understand that healthy river ecosystems are not a luxury, but the basis for sustainable development;



(6) thanks her for raising the South African flag high in the international arena; and



(7) wishes her much more success in her future endeavours.



Agreed to.







(Member’s Statement)



Dr S DHLOMO (ANC): Chair, the ANC reiterates its commitment to putting in place a quality national health care plan where all South Africans are able to access quality health care based on need.



We, therefore, welcome the official opening of the two state-of- the-art clinics; one in Mthatha by Minister Mkhize on Saturday and another one in Lusikisiki by President Ramaphosa today.

Which then, therefore, is a huge achievement and contribution towards the realisation of the health plan.



These two clinics represent the first of the eight ideal National Health Insurance, NHI, clinics built by the national Health Department in the OR Tambo district, which has been chosen as part of the 10 pilot sites for the rollout of the NHI.



The ANC believes that the NHI clinics will ensure that the problems of long queues for patient treatment, especially for the elderly, the shortage of medicine in clinics as well as the poor infrastructure in health facilities in the province, will be addressed and improved.



We are fully aware that the journey towards universal health care will not have its challenges, but we remain committed and resolute in our promise to our people that the ANC cares, the ANC lives and the ANC leads. I thank you.







(Member’s Statement)





Ms D VAN DER WALT (DA): Voorsitter, met die totstandkoming van ’n nuwe Afrikaanse opleidingskollege, doen Mnr Lesufi dit weer. Elke keer wanneer Afrikaners hul grondwetlike reg – hul taal – op eis, wys hy duidelik dat hy Afrikaans haat, en so die noodsaaklike versoeningsprojek in ons land teenstaan.



Die publiek is keelvol vir sy rasagenda. Moedertaal onderrig het niks met ras te doen nie; wel met gehalte onderwys.



Tydens ’n onderhoud met Radio 702 in August gaan hy teen die Skole Wet en sy magte as LUR deur aan te kondig dat geen skool tans ’n taalbeleid het nie want hy het dit geskrap. Hy sê:





All language policies at schools are declared null and void.








Hy vergeet gerieflikheidsonthalwe van sy nederlaag in die Konstitisionele Hof in 2018 toe hy probeer het om ’n Afrikaans- medium skool te dwing om Engelse leerders in te neem.



Mnr Lesufi moet eerder daarop fokus om moedertaalonderrig in al ons amptelike tale te ontwikkel en te bevorder, sodat leerders daardeur hul volle potensiaal kan bereik.



Daar kan geen plek vir rassetwis of verdeling in ons land se onderwysstelsel wees nie. [Applous.]






(Member’s Statement)



Ms H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): House Chair, on Friday 15 September 2019 I went to Mahatma Gandhi Hospital in Phoenix, Durban, in the KwaZulu-Natal province as a Member of Parliament, MP, to do my work as per the Constitution of South Africa.



I was then informed by the hospital chief executive officer, CEO, that theirs is a policy that I need to follow, I must apply to the MEC for Health in KwaZulu-Natal and I will be allowed to carry on with my oversight only if she approves.



I then called the Minister of Health and as expected, he never answer the call. I then called the Deputy Minister of Health, Joe Phaahla, who proudly said indeed Members of Parliament must



not be allowed to do their oversight; they can only do so if permitted by the MECs.



Later on the day I was called by the two members of public who had arrived in the hospital early in the morning and had received no assistance. They were in the hospital until the early hours of the next morning. On the very same day two patients died on the benches, where there was no assistance from the hospital.



We cannot allow the illegal denial of Members of Parliament to do their oversight work in public institutions.



We call on the minister of Health to conduct a workshop on his Deputy Minister who is clueless about his job as a Member of Parliament.



We further call on the Minister of Health to stop his colleagues in KwaZulu-Natal and all other provinces [Time expired.] to stop the madness of thinking that we are employed by his subordinates in the provincial Department of Health.






(Member’s Statement)



Ms B TSHWETE (ANC): Madam Chair, The ANC welcomes the move to expand the industrial development zone in East London and believes that this expansion of the East London Industrial Development Zone, IDZ, will aid efforts to create jobs and grow South Africa’s economy.



The East London Industrial Development Zone has plans in place to expand operations through additional investments to create

1 300 jobs in the near future.



Since its inception, the East London IDZ has succeeded in attracting up to R4,4 billion in private investments and has also created over 4 000 jobs. This is commendable.



The most pressing task for the ANC is to ensure we grow the economy by creating more jobs and provide more work opportunities for millions of South Africans. I thank you.






(Member’s Statement)



Mr S L NGCOBO (IFP): Hon Chairperson, the issue of backlog in the issuing of certificates to successful students by Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges which are reported from as back as nine years ago is indeed a cause for concern now.



This non-issuing of certificates has far-reaching negative implications to the candidates as they find themselves struggling to find employment because they have no way to prove their qualifications.



These colleges are aimed at producing employable young people with occupational and vocational skills to qualify as engineers, electricians, plumbers and boil makers; skills that are very much in demand in this country.



It would be impossible to meet the targets that are in the National Development Plan, NDP, for 2030 on the production of better skills profile for South Africa if we are failing to issue successful students with their certificates.



Students graduating from TVET colleges may also qualify for admission to the country’s 26 universities of technology, however, cannot enroll at these universities due to the delay in them receiving their certification.



The frustrations and anger conveyed by these individuals and their families need to be heeded.



As the IFP we implore the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology to investigate the backlog and take decisive action and to provide the public with a timeframe by



which the release of certificates for TVET students [Time expired.] will be completed. Thank you.







(Member’s Statement)





Mnr P A VAN STADEN (VF PLUS): Agb Voorsitter, dit het onder die VF Plus se aandag gekom dat daar die afgelope Vrydag, 13 September 2019, nie minder nie as drie brande by drie verskillende hospitale regoor Suid-Afrika uitgebreuk het en enorme skade aan die hospitale aangerig het.



Die eerste brand was by die Mitchells Plain Daghospitaal, die tweede by die Bram Fisher Internasionale Lughawe-Hospitaal in Bloemfontein en die derde by die Tygerberg Hospitaal in Kaapstad.



Net verlede Woensdag het ek hier in die Huis vir die Minister van Gesondheid gevra waarom 11 hospitale en klinieke in Gauteng



nie hul veiligheidsoudits kon slaag nie en die agb Minister kon nie antwoord op die vraag wat ek aan hom gerig het nie.



As VF Plus, herhaal ons weer ons standpunt dat infrastrukture van staatshospitale en klinieke dringend herstel moet word, alvorens die regering daaraan kan dink om die Nasionale Gesondheidsversekering op Suid-Afrikaners af te dwing.



Die VF Plus spreek ook die hoop uit dat daar dringend aandag gegee sal word aan die infrastrukture van hospitale en klinieke in die land. Dankie.






(Member’s Statement)



Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: The official opening of a Sexual Offences Court in Sibasa outside Thohoyandou, on Friday 13 September 2019, is an indication of the ANC-led government’s serious commitment to address the scourge of gender-based violence in our country. The court will accelerate prosecution



rates in the region. In addition, it will assist in alleviating caseloads in magistrate courts in the Vhembe region, which is grappling with alarming rates of gender-based violence, with more than 13 000 open cases in that region which includes rape, domestic violence and deaths.



The ANC commends its government for prioritising gender-based violence as well as for availing resources to this effect. The opening of this court brings to 94 the number of Sexual Offences courts across the country. We also await another 10 Sexual Offences Courts which are expected to be opened across the country before the end of 2019. I thank you.






(Member’s Statement)



Dr M J CARDO: Hon Chairperson, billions of rands in the Compensation Fund cannot be traced. That’s been revealed by the Compensation Fund’s 2018-19 Annual Report which was issued today. The Auditor-General has once again issued a disclaimer on



the fund’s financial statements. This is because of a lack of sufficient evidence to provide a basis for an audit opinion. The Compensation Fund has become a veritable basket case.



The situation is so bad that the Auditor-General has stated that, were it not for his obligation to audit public entities, he would have withdrawn from looking at the fund altogether. The Auditor-General was unable to determine whether any adjustments were necessary for revenue of R9,3 billion and receivables of R2,3 billion for nonexchangeable transactions, or debt impairment R14,5 billion.



The Auditor-General further found that management did not implement adequate internal controls to maintain records of benefits claimed. As such, he was unable to determine the accuracy of benefits paid to the tune of R5,4 billion.



The Auditor-General’s report is an utter indictment on the Compensation Fund. It makes a mockery of the Minister of Employment and Labour’s desire to use the resources of the fund for the purposes of job-creation. The DA will hold the



Compensation Fund to account on Friday when it appears before our committee. [Time expired.] I thank you. [Applause.]







(Member’s Statement)



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP notes yesterday’s South Gauteng High Court judgement by Judge Roland Sutherland wherein certain sections of the regulations of communications and provisions of communication-related information, Rica Act, were found to be unconstitutional. While any parliamentarian should be concerned when a piece of legislation, which is duly passed by parliament, is found to be unconstitutional, in this case the finding is intended to prevent abuses by law enforcement and intelligence agencies.



The judgement follows media group, amaBhungane, challenging the constitutionality of certain sections of the Act after it emerged that a journalist, Sam Sole’s, communications were



intercepted while he was reporting on the corruption investigation against former President Zuma.



The direct implication of this judgement is that bulk surveillance activities, which can be abused, are now unlawful. This is to be welcomed. The ACDP looks forward to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services considering and passing amendments to rectify the defects as well as preventing abuses of this important law. I thank you.







(Member’s Statement)



Ms N J KUBHEKA: House Chair, the ANC fully supports the call for harsher sentences for perpetrators of gender-based violence. We therefore welcome the sentencing of the KwaZulu-Natal serial rapist, 32 year old, Mlungisi Mjoli, to seven life terms of imprisonment in the Durban High Court on Friday, 13 September 2019, for rapes committed between 2014 and 2016 in the areas of Intsikeni, Chatsworth, Inanda and KwaDukuza.



Mlungisi Mjoli, is a repeat offender, who was sentenced to nine years in prison for rape in 2010, and was later released on parole in 2014. After his release he continued with his evil deeds of terrorising women. He is also currently in court for dealing in and possession of drugs. We hope that this harsh sentence will serve as a deterrent to those who perpetrate gender-based violence and sexual assault.



Law-abiding citizens, the Government and social partners all stand united in our efforts to end violence against women and children. I thank you






(Member’s Statement)



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the NFP notes with concern the eviction of 80-year-old Kenneth Blane and his family on Monday morning in Woodstock, Cape Town. After the CPF chairperson called in and an investigation was done, it was established that Mr Blane has been occupying the said premises at 19 Plein Street



for 43 years. Mr Blane has been attending to take ownership of the property for decades but to no avail. Mr Blane and his family had to sleep on the street.



All attempts to find shelters failed. All rent payments were up to date. The NFP has repeatedly called on government to place a moratorium on all evictions nationally, but to no avail. The said property in 29 Plein Street in Woodstock, Cape Town, is due to be auctioned today. Mr Blane is still recovering from foot surgery and presently living on the street.







(Member’s Statement)



Mr T S MPANZA: The ANC welcomes the new trade deal with five other countries in the region that has been concluded with the UK recently. This new agreement means certainty and a legal framework for trade with the UK in the event that the UK leaves the European Union without an agreement between them. This has been currently scheduled for 31 October 2019. The agreement



would govern the trade relationship and tariffs between South Africa, Lesotho, Eswatini, Namibia, Botswana and Mozambique and the UK.



A no-deal Brexit would have added additional costs to exporting and importing goods for both South Africa and the United Kingdom as higher tariffs would have needed to be added to the cost of trading between the UK and South Africa. In 2018, the UK was the fourth largest destination for South African exports, with bilateral trade of more than R140 billion a year.



The ANC believes that the new agreement, known as the Sacum-UK Economic Partnership Agreement, replicates the terms of the agreement in the existing economic partnership agreement with the EU, including relating to tariffs, quotas, rules of origin and health and safety regulations.






(Member’s Statement)



Mr M J CUTHBERT: The ANC-led City of Ekurhuleni has failed to provide the residents of Lindelani Informal Settlement with electricity. This brings into question the pro-poor policy credentials which they purport to possess. Rather, they seem to be comfortable maintaining the status quo, which dictates that those who live on the margins of society shall remain there.



Therefore, I ask the house to take note of the following. There have been few to no basic services in Lindelani informal settlement since the residents of Apex were moved there in 1999. Despite the ANC promising electrification last year, this has not materialised. This has several implications for people’s health, their finances, and their safety. Most concerning, is the safety of women. No electricity means no streetlights and women in the community are being attacked in the dark.



Considering the recent spate of gender-based violence and femicide, it is imperative that this security-related challenge to a lack of electrification is addressed immediately. The residents of Lindelani cannot be subjected to this undignified means of living anymore. The City of Ekurhuleni needs to act



now. The DA will not rest until our communities receive the services they deserve.



Ms N K F HLONYANA(EFF): Chairperson, we are disgusted to learn that Sixolisile Methlomakhulu from Alfred Nzo ANC regional chairperson and district Mayor has been physically abusing his mother to such an extent that she had to get a protection order against the Mayor following repeated cases of domestic abuse.



What pains us even more is that the elderly woman is almost 90- years-old. She should be enjoying these days with her grandchildren, but instead she lives in fear of his son. The country is bleeding from gruesome cases of gender-based violence and criminality which have claimed many lives of innocent women and children. As leaders, we are expected to be actively against the spread of violence and lawlessness.



The Mayor is a leader of society and should lead by example and should be a personification of moral and ethical behaviour. By keeping such a person in a position of authority, the ANC is condoning that kind of behaviour. We call upon the Minister of



Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to intervene in that municipality, to ensure that the Mayor is a fit and proper person to hold that job.



We further call on the Minister of Police to ensure that SIxolile is arrested for abusing his mother. I thank you.



Mr S LUZIPHO (ANC): Chairperson, even though apartheid might have ended some decades ago, racism still continues rears its ugly head in our country. The case in point is that of the Shoprite regional manager in Johannesburg’s Southgate Mall who used the “k word” when speaking to her subordinates, which shows that we have a long way to go in terms of nation building and social cohesion. The affected employees later opened a crimen injuria case at the Mondeor Police Station and two neighbouring branches were closed earlier last week because of this incident.



Even though the Shoprite Group appeared to strongly condemn racism in the workplace. As the ANC, we will await the outcomes of the disciplinary process currently underway. Derogatory comments intended to denigrate the intelligence; humanity and



beliefs of black people is continuing to be rife. The use of the K-word is endemic. For many poor black people this is a part of the daily fabric of their lives and they remain vulnerable to racist treatment. The ANC, we will not tolerate this kind of racial discrimination, be it in schools or at a workplace level. As the ANC, we believe that concerted interventions should be done in all sectors of our society to eradicate racism. [Time expired.]





Ms J M MOFOKENG (ANC): Chairperson, The ANC led government together with the Missing Persons Task Team continues to exhume, hand over to families and facilitate reburials of the remains of the freedom fighters that died either inside or outside the borders of South Africa. There are still remains of our struggle heroes and heroines whose graves are yet to be located, exhumed and given dignified reburials.



A former Umkhonto we Sizwe operative Bheki Cyprian Hlatshwayo was finally buried on Saturday 14 September 2019 at the Thomas Nkobi Memorial Park in Boksburg. Hlatshwayo, whose alias was MK Bismark, was gunned down by police in the former homeland of Bophuthatswana on October 27, 1978. None of his family members knew of his whereabouts after he went into exile in 1976.



It was only in July 2012, 36 years later, that the NPA’s Missing Persons Task Team conducted extensive excavations at Mmabatho cemetery and located a grave with the remains of two young men in a single coffin. The remains were identified as comrades Hlatshwayo’s and Mathew Goniwe’s through DNA tests. Their remains were handed to their family at a ceremony hosted by the Ministry of Justice in July 2015.



Freedom Fighter, Mathew Goniwe was reburied at his home in the Eastern Cape. Comrade Hlatshwayo’s remains were kept at a mortuary in Soweto whilst family members decided on his final resting place. May their souls rest in peace? I thank you.





Chairperson, I want to welcome in particular the statement by hon Mpanza, Tshwete and Dlomo.



Hon Mpanza pointed to the agreement that was the subject of a discussion under the ministerial statement earlier on the UK- South Africa agreement to deal with the consequences of a no deal Brexit and as we indicated earlier it provides certainty for investors and it will keep our export pipelines open.



Hon Tshwete drew an attention to an application to expand the special economic zone, ESZ, in East London where additional investors have expressed an interest and that application is now under consideration and the ESZ is one of two in the Eastern Cape Kouga and East London one.



Hon Dlomo welcomes the opening of two state of the art clinics in Mthata and Qumbu as part of the ideal health clinic and I draw attention these three, because they show the connection in government policy.



On the one hand with the agreement with the UK, we are opening up demand for South African goods, so we are dealing with the demands side of it. Through the special economic zone programme, we are creating opportunities for investors to place the money in brick, mortar and production processes. So, we are dealing with the supply side so that we have the industrial capability to use the demand that there is.



Through the ideal clinic programme and some of the other programmes of government, we are dealing with the social dimension, because ultimately this is about human beings, about a healthy population, a healthy work force and improving productivity by ensuring that we have these policies in place. So, these three statements, even though they are not connected to in themselves show the beginning of coordinated programme to deal with the challenges that we face as a society and as an economy and to unlock that opportunity. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson, I wish to respond to two questions or statements, one from the DA and one from the FF Plus.



The FF Plus is arguing about something that we have been discouraging that every problem that is experienced in health is a good indication of why there can’t be NHI. He is talking about infrastructure. The programme on infrastructure to support NHI has already been there and is already being implemented and today is a good example.



The President is opening a state of the art clinic in Lusikisiki and one was opened on Saturday. They were eight of them which were completed in O R Tambo District and five are being built in Limpopo and they are about to be completed. The other five are being built in Mpumalanga.



Lastly on this issue, people in this profession understand better. You need to go and ask them. When they sign the compact on NHI with the President, infrastructure was part of that and they have signed that compact with the understanding that infrastructure improvement will happen. In fact, over the past five years, the Department of Health spent R1,9 billion in improving infrastructure in the pilot district.



On the question about language, the use of language as a barrier from entering certain schools in this country must come to an end. There is nothing hon Lesufi is doing. This thing has been happening over a long period of time. Some of us were member of executive council, MECs, for education. I remember when I was in Limpopo and when I asked that in the former model C schools that they must introduce African Languages. Just as a language, for example: Tshivenda, Xitsonga; and Sepedi. There was an uprising. I had to fire a principal for that. [Time expired.]



(Minister’s Response)





you very much House Chairperson, indeed, it is true that there has been a backlog of certificates as indicated by the hon member of the EFF. This matter is being addressed along with State Information Technology Agency, Sita, by the Department of Higher Education and Science and Technology.



There has been progress. I think there will be faster progress as an improved system of recording subjects comes into play. It



is the manner in which one completes modules within the Technical and Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, system that tends to cause a system breakdown in compiling the totality of what would be an outcome certificate. The Minister is fully alert to the problem and is addressing it. I wish to assure the hon member of that.



I certainly would agree with the hon member of the DA that all municipalities should do much more to ensure that there is electricity, there are lights and there is increased safety particularly for women but I think for all community members. This is an area that must be addressed and we should ensure that wherever it is possible, we provide all services that the people need.



I am aware that Ekurhuleni is intensifying efforts to provide greater basic services; I would accept that there is a failure in the area of Lindelani that [17:27:13] mentioned but there are many areas in which much progress has been recorded in the Ekurhuleni municipality. We hope they would do more as the hon



member has indicated to address the particular problems in Lindelani.



Finally, I think certainly our Chief Whip will look into this matter that has been raised about an ANC member. We hope that should it be proven that it is untrue that due statement clarifying that untruths will be made. Should it prove to be true, I am sure the ANC will take action. Thank you very much.





to respond to about five questions or statement, the first being from hon Swart on yesterday’s judgement on the interception of Communications Bill, which hon Swart is well aware of as she was involved in working on the Bill and I think it was passed unanimously by this House.



We have been in the process of revising the Bill. Obviously, the judgment gives greater impetus and would it obviously have to be confirmed by the Constitutional Court. So, that is very much work in progress. It is a moving a target as technology



develops. What we may have been happy with in 2002 when the Bill was passed; things may be different now.



Then on issue from hon Newhoudt-Druchen on the sexual offences court, yes indeed, there has been a steady roll-out of sexual offences courts since the 2013-14 financial year with between 19 and 10 new courts being established each year; fifteen in the last year to be exact and seventeen the one before then. So, there is a continuous roll out. We are now at 94.



Sentences for sexual offences are high. Most of them are subject to the minimum sentences regime. The conviction rate has also been steadily increasing from 48% in 2000 to over 70% for the last four years.



On the issue of racism, we hope that the Hate Crimes and Hate Speech Bill in the last Parliament will be revived. Obviously the Constitutional Court judgment will also give clarity as to what can be restricted and what can’t be.



Lastly on missing persons, I think it is important to highlight the work done by the National Prosecuting Authority’s missing persons task team and to be aware that there are still a large number of people who have disappeared who are unaccounted for. Thank you.





PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: House Chairperson, thank you very much, I going to respond to a question by the hon member of the ANC on sexual offences courts. I really want to assure the House that government has taken time to listen very carefully to survivors of gender-based violence and femicide as to what will make a difference.



Since the summit that was held by the President, there has been a decisive response with regard to expanding the sexual offences courts, which are seen by survivors as critical in ensuring that justice is not delayed. The courts are more efficient in understanding this issue of gender-based violence and femicide.



Also related to that, the women have been very clear and vocal in saying that in this country the gender-based violence and femicide should be reclassified to fall under a schedule of serious crimes so that they don’t see people getting bail easily or walking out to communities to retraumatise them.



The question of parole applications as well as all those things that have been really causing more harm to survivors ... It is one area which I think the government has been decisive and responsive to. On harsher sentences, we are seeing more responses whereby offenders aren’t getting the usual few years and then they are out again, but we are seeing ... as hon member was saying in the case of Mlungisi Mjoli ... harsher sentences that are sending a clear message across the country that these are not ordinary crimes. Thank you.





very much, House Chairperson, let me start with the Member’s Statement on Mehlomakhulu and indicate that we should be proud of the kind of laws and regulations that we have especially in light of the fact that as we read what has been referred to; it



is clear that the law has been followed. Taking further the point that the office of the ANC in the province was clear in its report that it did call on Mr Mehlomakhulu.



We also need to understand that all of us have rights and when a matter is before the courts, we need to allow the courts to make the judgments. We cannot make judgments upfront. At least let us just say that the ANC in the province did care in that it did call on Mr Mehlomakhulu to take it into confidence.



Another point is the duty of the members of this House to conduct oversight especially in public institutions such as hospitals. We also need to be mindful of the fact that a hospital is a sensitive place because there are patients-doctor confidentiality materials that anybody can access, it can create problems and therefore ... [Time expired.] [Interjections.]







Ms N E MOTAUNG: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:





(1) debates reviewed competition legislation that enriches the powers of the economic regulators to promote competition based on fact-based enquiries and investigations; and



(2) also discourages government policy and action which stifles competition.



Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:



That the House debates the ongoing water crisis in Makhanda in the Makana Local Municipality, the steps being taken to address this and contingency plans to ensure continued availability or supply to residents of the town.



Mr N S MATIASE: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:





(1) debates the need to fulfil the wish of Peter Tosh and one of our own, hon Mario Ambrosini, by discussing the legalisation of Marijuana for a variety of purposes such as medical, industrial and commercial; and



(2) also notes that not only Judges smoke marijuana, but also Members of Parliament.



Mr P R MOROATSHEHLA: Madam Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the House debates the motion “Developing vocational skills which have the greatest potential for promoting employability,” in view of the current and escalating state of unemployment.



Mr S L NGCOBO: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:



That the House debates the issue of the backlog with regard to the issuing of certificates by the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology to successful TVET College students.



Mr I M GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF- Plus:



That the House debates possible interventions by the relevant local authorities and the Department of Water and Sanitation to alleviate the impact of drought conditions currently being experienced in the Eastern Cape and Nelson Mandela area, and the resultant extremely low levels of the main dams supplying water to Port Elizabeth and surroundings, as well as the agricultural sector.



Mr E T MYENI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the House debates the crucial role of the informal sector in poverty alleviation.



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:



That the House debates the implications of a possible sovereign ratings downgrade by rating agency Moody’s and the steps required to avoid such a downgrade.



Mr V ZUNGULA: Chairperson, I am very glad the House is quiet because this is the most important motion this year. [Interjections.] I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ATM:



That the House debates the ring fencing of the micro economy for the exclusive use of South Africans.



Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:



That the House debates in the interest of national safety, the type, size, capacity and capabilities required of the SA National Defence Force in order to give fruition to section

202 of the Constitution and to come up with sustainable alternative in compliance with section 202.



Mrs T P MSANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:



That the House debates the Giyani water crisis which continues without any solution from the government as the water project in Giyani has become a pool of corruption due to the total disregard of the needs of the residents.



Ms M D MABILETSA: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the House debates the transformation and diversification of the financial sector to ensure that it serves the economy and the people.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:



That the House deliberates and resolves on placing a moratorium on state-occupied rental homes unless alternative occupation is provided.



Mr M R MASHEGO: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the mighty ANC:



That the House debates infrastructure investment as a key instrument for development and growth.



Mr T T GUMBU: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the House debates building a culture that protects and promotes human rights, respect and dignity of all citizens.



Mr O S TERBLANCHE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:



That the House debates the apparent collapse of the crime intelligence mechanism within the SA Police Service and the negative impact this has on the SAPS’s ability to gather relevant information in order to respond timeously to combat crime.



Mr T MALATJI: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the House discusses the education system which should be a platform to nurture the future generation of the country to be patriotic and have good social moral activities for building the national democratic revolution towards the national democratic society.



The House adjourned at 17:46








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