Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 12 Aug 2015


No summary available.









The House met at 15:00.


The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.




The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, government has prioritised the expansion and development of Tvet colleges as a cornerstone of the national effort to meet our human resource needs. Providing our people with skills that are relevant and meaningful is to ask the national priority. This we do to enable young people to find employment as well as to expand their employment opportunities.


There is a strong link between the quality of teaching in Tvet colleges and the development of skills suitable for the demands of the job market. Many of our universities as we speak are developing qualifications for Tvet lecturers to enable them to be able to increase their capability to lecture. The Department of Higher Education and Training is focusing more on improving performance management and professional development of Tvet lecturers.


To ensure that lecturers are kept abreast with the latest trends in industry and in business, a project has been launched through the education, training and development practises, Setas, to place a number of lecturers in the industry. This project was initiated in five Tvet colleges and is expanding on an annual basis and the Department of Higher Education and Training has been running a campaign to encourage the recruitment by industry of Tvet college graduates. Students are also assisted to obtain internships through the work integrated learning process which is done in collaboration with a number of Setas that we have.


To align the work of Tvet colleges with the needs of industry more directly and to ensure that industry expertise and resources are being used in colleges, the human resource development council is piloting a Tvet adoption programme. This programme encourages companies across the country and industry bodies to form adoption partnerships with Tvet colleges to assist colleges to improve their training programmes.


These adoption partnerships as they are being implemented will assist in addressing challenges of poor administration, management and governance and infrastructure in a number of our Tvet colleges. We expect that companies that adopt these Tvet colleges in areas near their own operations will provide students with great opportunities to learn almost on the job. They will also help to develop teaching-learning material and build institutional management capacity of these Tvet colleges.


These colleges will then have a greater chance of producing graduates that have the relevant skills that the labour market will be able to absorb. We would like to call on as many companies as possible across sectors of the economy to see Tvet colleges as a source of well trained graduates.


The Tvet colleges are the institutions that will produce what we will see as the world trade employees of the future. They are critical to the growth of businesses and the further development of key sectors of our economy. It is essential therefore, Madam Speaker that we work together; government, business and other stakeholders to improve the scale, the quality and the relevance of our Tvet college system. It is a Tvet college system that is growing by leaps and bounds and now we are targeting to have more that 750 000 young people in these Tvet colleges by the end of this financial year. So, many young people are responding very positively to the training opportunities that are made available by Tvet colleges. They deserve our support and that is why we encourage companies to adopt these Tvet colleges so that we can bring about greater scale in our vocational learning process. I thank you.






Measures to ensure strong relationship between Tvet colleges and industry


13.          Mr E K Siwela (ANC) asked the Deputy President:


With reference to the National Development Plan’s emphasis that the need for a strong relationship between the technical and vocational education and training colleges and industry to (a) improve the quality of training, (b) ensure faster absorption of graduates in the job market and (c) assist with determining the skills demands that exist in the labour market, what measures are in place to ensure that these partnerships materialise and are sustained?                          NO3212E

Mr E K SIWELA: Hon Speaker, let me thank the Deputy President for the answer. It is clear from your response that indeed the partnerships exist between universities and Tvet colleges to develop lecturers and also between the Tvet colleges and industries to capacitate them.


Deputy President what is the government doing to ensure that the enrolment of students in Tvet colleges increases, particularly those that are coming from the rural areas? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As things stand now, we are in the process of expanding Tvet colleges although we want to concentrate more on quality rather than quantity. Three Tvet colleges are in the process of being built as we speak. As I have said earlier we expect that 750 000 young people will enrol in the Tvet colleges by the end of this financial year but much more than that we are also refurbishing our Tvet colleges to make sure that they are suitable for the task that lies at hand so that they are able to deliver quality education.


The fact that we are increasing the capability of our lecturers means that we want to produce better quality of well trained students. The students also have access to National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas, which is either a bursary or a loan. This is also made available to those students who go to Tvet colleges. The accommodation which has always been a critical challenge to young people who go to these colleges is a matter that is also being addressed. In time we hope that we will be able to continue absorbing as many students as we can but also offer them really good quality education in the Tvet colleges.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, despite several efforts undertaken to improve skills development, South Africa is still suffering from a chronic skills shortage problem, needless to say that this discourages investors. We note your response on the technical vocational education and training, Tvet, colleges, however, it is our considered view that we need to enhance monitoring, evaluation and co-ordination of the current skills development programme. To this end we propose that government considers the approach we used in the Thuthuka Project in 2001. In 2001, Matt Mathys, a mathematics teacher, Chantelle Kruger of the SA Institute of Chartered Accountants and I founded this project with the aim of producing more black chartered accountants. Today this project has produced hundreds of chartered accountants.


Related to this question of skills development, I know of an international company that specialises in the field of wielding and pipe fitting that wants to invest over R729 million in South Africa in the next five years in training centres that specialises in wielding and pipe fitting with special focus in the energy sector. These investors are planning to train approximately 1 000 South Africans in this field over the next five years. Those trained would enhance the capacity of the ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa, you are about to finish two minutes and you do not seem to have a question.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Kha ukhe umamele, nantsi iprojekthi ndisiza nayo. [Would you please listen, I am coming up with a project here.]


The SPEAKER: No. Your time has actually expired.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: To what extent would government be interested in such an initiative?


Musani ukube ningxola, yiprojekthi le. Lawulekani. [Kwahlekwa.] [Stop making noise, this is a project. Please behave. [Applause.]]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker and hon Holomisa, we will complement you on the Thuthuka Project because that is one project that has worked very well and has trained a number of chartered accountants. You will also note that there are many other projects; one that is notable is the training of actuaries. Some 10 years ago it was found that we only had one black actuary in the country and a similar project was started and today we have quite a number of actuaries with many in the pipeline.


When it comes to the types of project that you are talking about with would be investors, our country and our government will welcome such investors because if they are meant to come and train our people, we should welcome them to invest in the country. You will know that the Department of Higher Education and Training led by Dr Nzimande has focused on the training of artisans. The Artisan Training Programme which was started a few years ago is growing by leaps and bounds and obviously we are starting from a low base but that is going to start paying dividends later. Therefore, combining this with what you are saying about investors wanting to come, if all of us join hands in training young people, we will be able in a few years to reap great benefits. So, we thank you for engaging with those investors. Kindly introduce them to the Minister so that he can engage with them. Thank you very much.


Prof B BOZZOLI: I welcome the Deputy President’s enthusiasm for partnerships between colleges and industry but the partnerships he mentions are actually not to train students in high skills but to help the college improve or they are in universities as in actuaries and accountants. Who is going to train people in hard skills, the apprenticeship that you have already mentions and how will this be funded? In fact over R12 billion is already being levied per year from industry through the skills levy to train young people in hard skills, however, these multibillions are being channeled into a range of partially or completely dysfunctional and often corrupt Seta’s and sometimes murky coffers of the National Skills Fund of which much of the R12 billion ends up enriching a few rather than training the many.


Will the Deputy President support closing the Setas and the National Skills Fund; redirecting the wasted R12 billion; putting it towards directly funding the costs of the Partnerships between Tvets and industry that he has praised so enthusiastically, and; providing from the R12 billion proper support for the students concerned by supplementing the National Student Financial Aid Scheme?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The type of partnerships that I have seen in operation and I have been to a few of them as a chairman of the Human Resource Development Council, has been the sort that do not seek to try and improve necessarily the work of the Tvet college but also to improve hard skills. Believe you me, I have been to some of those colleges and I have seen young people acquiring real hard skills in rather complicated crafts. Those young people are being trained and get exposure to the world of work in a real way and in real time. One can dismiss this and say it is meaningless but to those people who are involved in these colleges they know that they are getting real and good hard skills and that the Department of Higher Education has been hard at work in finding some of these partnerships and they find partnerships with top class companies such as Sasol and a number of others. We have a number of companies that are lining up to adopt these colleges. The adoption process will be in two ways firstly, to adopt the teaching in the college itself and also to help with the administration and to make sure that the college is well run.

Regarding the closing of Setas, some of our Setas have faced challenges and it is not all Setas that have faced the type of challenges you are talking about and that is not a justification to close them. Setas will continue because they are doing a good job and we are going to come with further proposals on how to streamline them. The Setas that I have interacted with are working extremely well. The money that is challenged through Setas is going to good effect. It is improving the skills of our young people. People can scoff at it but it is improving young people’s skills. We have 750 000 young people who are going to benefit through training in the Tvet colleges. We cannot just abandon them, we have to make sure that our Setas are focused and that our Tvet colleges function extremely well. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Hon Speaker, the conceptualisation of technical and vocational training is that it must have the capacity to absorb children who come from Grades 10, 11 and 12 whether they have passed matric or not into some sort of vocational training and education system. Now, when you calculate the number of those students with the 520 000 who wrote matric, annually it is close to a million. Now the first year spaces that are available in all public and private institutions are less than 300 000. What happens to the rest who are eligible because they have passed Grade 10 or 11, what happens to the rest in terms of access to post-secondary training and education? We have asked this question to a contemporary in the ANC, the Minister of Higher Education and Training and he was unable to answer that question. Maybe this time you will give us guidance. Thank you very much.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, to the hon member, I think that everyone will accept that we have a huge challenge of skilling our people and we are also suffering from the legacy of apartheid where there was neglect of training and skilling of people. So, they are coming in large numbers and the facilities where they can be trained are rather few and therefore we have to make do with what we have. As I was saying earlier, by the end of this financial year we will have recorded 750 000 young people in these Tvet colleges. Now, that is almost a 505 increase to what we had the previous year.


Yes, indeed many more young people keep coming forward hungry for training and that is something that is positive that we should all be pleased with but in the end we have to increase access as you correctly say. We also have community training colleges. The Department of Higher Education and Training has been trying to find ways of expanding areas and facilities for training our young people and to have had an increase of more than 50% just in one year is a phenomenal feat and the following year we will even be increasing more.


As we speak, we are building three brand new Tvet colleges and we are revamping and refurbishing those that have been in existence. You will also know that we are also building two new universities. That means that there is progress. We are making progress and we will be making sure that we find more facilities for young people to go and get an education. We should be pleased that our young people want to learn and our task working together is to find ways in which we can deliver good skills to those young people. Thank you.


Position regarding deliberations on and reviews of visa regulations


14.          The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the Deputy President:


Whether, with regard to his statement that South Africa is at the cutting edge of immigration and visa regulations (details furnished), he has been briefed on the progress of the current deliberations on and reviews of the visa regulations of the Department of Home Affairs?                       NO3254E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the question asked is whether I was briefed. Yes, I was briefed.


As President Zuma indicated yesterday, as we speak, government has announced and established an interministerial committee to examine and find remedies for any potential unintended consequences resulting from the implementation of the immigration regulations. The Immigration Act and its regulations essentially are aimed at striking a balance between the need to protect our sovereignty as a country and national security to advance the national development agenda of our country and to honour our international obligations.

As a country, we have to say that – and no country does – we cannot compromise our own sovereignty and security, nor can we ignore the economic and social effects of any measures we adopt as we deal with this matter of immigration. The interministerial committee therefore will examine all available evidence on the impact of the introduction of these new regulations and will take steps to mitigate any negative consequences.


It should be noted that alongside the implementation of the new regulations, government is introducing several measures to improve the efficiency, the security and the accessibility of our immigration processes. The Minister of Home Affairs will be able to provide further detail in this regard. Government is aware of, and very much alive to, the concerns that have been raised by a number of people with regard to these new regulations. The process being led by the interministerial committee, which the President has asked me to lead, aims to address these and all related matters that have to do with the impact of the immigration regulations’ implementation.


We are going to try and find a rationally implemented method of bringing about a balance so that we do not sacrifice our security but, at the same time, we also deal with the negative economic impacts that have been brought about. Thank you very much.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker and Deputy President, I think it is high time that we, as South Africans, recognise that we face a job crisis. There is a famous saying that states the following: If it is not broken, why tinker with it? The fact of the matter is that these visa regulations do not have unintended consequences. Your government was warned about these consequences. We knew upfront that this would result in job losses. Secondly, the numbers that had been used to justify the security measures had been overinflated. There has been no audit on what level of security threat required these visa regulations.


So, Deputy President, noting all of this, let’s be fair and say that, in fact, our GDP growth is down to 2%. In fact, tourism was the only industry creating jobs up until recently when your government decided to intervene. Given these job losses in both mining and the manufacturing sector, I think I want to ask you today – we cannot simply say we need another committee or another interministerial committee – what are you, Deputy President, going to do to ensure that we settle the impasse between Minister Derek Hanekom and Minister Malusi Gigaba to ensure that, ultimately, we can withdraw these visa regulations and ask for more tourists to come to South Africa so that we can create jobs for our people? This cannot continue. Thank you. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the fact that the President has appointed this interministerial committee testifies to the sensitivity of the government of the Republic of South Africa that when it does encounter difficulties or challenges, it will immediately set about resolving the challenges. [Interjections.]


We are going to address these issues. The interministerial committee that the President has asked me to lead will meet fairly soon to address this. In the committee will be the Minister of Home Affairs, the Minister of Tourism, the Minister of Trade and Industry, the Minister of Social Development, as well as the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster, and all these Ministers are going to bring their experience and knowledge to bear on the solutions that we should find. [Interjections.] I would suggest that we give this committee an opportunity. Following their deliberations, a report will be tabled to Cabinet, and thereafter an announcement will be made. An announcement will be made in a way to resolve all these unintended consequences. [Interjections.]


If there is a government that is concerned about jobs in our country, it is the Jacob Zuma government. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Yesterday, the President outlined government’s nine-point plan. [Interjections.] He outlined the measures and the steps that we are taking to implement the nine-point plan. Let me tell you because you do not know. The nine-point plan is being implemented, and it is beginning to take good effect. It is possible that you are blind, and you do not see we are implementing it. [Applause.] Thank you very much. [Interjections.]


Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, I have been partially covered, and we appreciate the fact-based engagement mentioned at the Presidential Business Working Group in Pretoria last Friday on the possible unintended consequences of the new visa regulations, but the big question is the following: How long is this going to take? What we really want to know is whether government is treating this with the urgency needed to prevent further damage, which is happening even as we speak. Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker and hon member, in terms of timeframes, this matter is going to be dealt with with immediate effect. As we speak, arrangements are being made for the interministerial committee to meet forthwith. Once it has met and deliberated on all these matters – in an evidence-based manner – we will be able to find solutions, and the results thereof will be announced.


This is a government that is responsive. [Interjections.] We are going to respond to the challenges that we face. I know that my fellow hon members on the other side don’t believe this. [Interjections.] Of course, you don’t believe this because you are not in government. [Interjections.] We are in government, and we know what we are talking about. Thank you very much. [Applause.] [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You don’t know what you are talking about!


Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Speaker, through you to the hon Deputy President: I can only think or hope that you were misquoted in saying that South Africa is on the cutting edge of immigration and visa regulations. [Laughter.] South Africa is on the edge of losing more than R8 billion in revenue from the outbound industries and more than 100 000 jobs.


Deputy President, in the international arena, we are competing for tourism with 200 other countries. We clearly need to be more flexible and competitive in terms of ease of entry into our country. With President Zuma showing his concern and saying so in Pretoria, without this issue being discussed in a committee at Cabinet level, how do you plan ensure that South Africa remains a competitive tourism destination?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the fact that President Zuma appointed this interministerial committee is testimony to the fact the he, as President of the Republic, sees this matter in a serious light. [Interjections.] He has elevated the process of resolving this to an interministerial level so that it can be given the due attention that it deserves.


I visited the Department of Home Affairs offices and went to the Government Printing Works. I saw the cutting-edge technology that I spoke about – how they issue passports, how they issue our identity cards, and the manner in which they have devoted time and effort to making sure that we are amongst the best in the world. That is cutting-edge technology being utilised.


As Home Affairs will be announcing further measures in future, they will actually base them on the technologically advanced equipment that we have within the Government Printing Works, which is responsible for producing our passports, our identity cards and identity books. That is where we are ahead of many countries in the world. In fact, we are amongst the top few in the world that have the technology that we possess. In time, we will be introducing biometrics to ensure that when we deal with people who come to visit our country, we will do so flawlessly and with great ease for them. That will also enhance the entry of tourists into our country.


What we are going through is just a temporary problem. [Interjections.] We are going to resolve this problem. I am absolutely sure of that. It has been raised by a number of people, and our sensitivity will lead us to resolve this problem. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]


Mr D M GUMEDE: Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for his inclusive, comprehensive ... [Interjections.] ... smart, and clear response to a complicated matter that is very complex throughout the world. [Interjections.]


South Africa is not losing as many jobs as other parts of the world. [Interjections.] That is why we have so many immigrants from so many parts of the world coming to South Africa. It is because we are better off. [Interjections.] What arose here is the issue of security, particularly the security of our children. How prevalent is the issue of child trafficking in South Africa? I thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, as we deal with this matter in the interministerial committee, we will do it on a basis of evidence. We will deal with all the facts and the details that this matter will require. As we speak, we still find quite a number of incidents of children who are being taken out of the country illegally and who are also being taken out ...


Mr I M OLLIS: How many?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... against their will, in other words, being kidnapped, as you like.


Obviously, we need to create a balance, and as we look at the economic impact, at the security, we have to create a good balance to make sure that we do indeed secure the security of our children so that our children are not just taken out of the country. Imagine your own child being taken out of the country without your knowledge and without your permission. How would that grab you, as a parent? [Interjections.]


Government has a responsibility to secure our children but, at the same time, we also have a responsibility to make sure that we enable tourists to come to our country. It is striking this balance that is the important part. That is precisely what the interministerial committee is going to do, so all the figures will be collated and, when the interministerial committee meets, we will be able to deal with real facts in front of us. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, on a point of order: We put questions to the Deputy President so he can answer them. With respect, the hon Gumede asked a very good question. He said, “How prevalent is ... child trafficking”? It is a good question. It needs an answer. The Deputy President did not answer it. [Applause.] [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. [Interjections.]


Particulars regarding official visit by Deputy President to People’s Republic of China


15.          Ms N Gina (ANC) asked the Deputy President:


  1. Which aspects of the 5-10 Year Strategic Programme on co-operation between the People’s Republic of China and the Republic of South Africa were discussed during his official visit to China;


  1. what were the key outcomes of the bilateral discussions with the People’s Republic of China that would be given priority by the Government during the remainder of 2015;


(3)        since his reply to oral question 12 on 10 June 2015, what key lessons did he learn during his meeting with the Chairperson of the Chinese State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission in respect of how South Africa can enhance the performance of its state-owned companies?                                                                   NO3213E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the main purpose of our visit to China was to review progress made in relation to the implementation of the Five-to-Ten Year Strategic Programme for Co-operation signed by our President and President Xi Jinping, with specific focus on China's experience in the management of their state-owned enterprises, SOEs.


The following aspects of the strategic programme were discussed: The alignment of industries to accelerate South Africa's industrialisation process; the enhancement of co-operation in special economic zones; the enhancement of our ocean economy; infrastructure development; human resource and skills co-operation; as well as the issue of concessionary finance that can be made available by China.

Among the key outcomes from bilateral discussions was a commitment from China to co-operate with South Africa in promoting industrialisation and improving our economic capacity and our ability to create jobs.


China has agreed and committed itself to sharing its experience and expertise on special economic zones, where they have excelled over the past 30 years and created a number of economic zones that have led to the creation of gigantic cities. It has agreed to encourage its companies to invest in South Africa's special economic zones and its science and technology parks.


China has also agreed to share its experience and assist South Africa in expediting the implementation of our ocean’s economy programme. An important area of co-operation is in the development of skills needed for our own economic growth.


The area of vocational training which they have excelled in was highlighted as important for the implementation of our own industrialisation programme. With regard to training, China has offered us thousands of training opportunities over the next five years.


We also spent time talking to the Chinese Academy of Governance where they train their government officials as well as SOE executives. They agreed to place South African government officials and SOE executives on leadership training programmes, which we intend to take up. Initiatives are already underway to finalise relevant training programmes for Public Service managers.


The delegation also met with China's State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission - known as Sasac - which oversees 111 national SOEs. Some aspects of China's approach to SOEs are worth noting. Obviously, not everything that they do would be suitable to our own conditions, but there are quite a number of lessons that we can learn from them. There is, for example a standard approach to governance processes and the structure across all SOEs that is supervised by a single entity, Sasac. The commission also oversees performance assessment, training and remuneration of SOE executives.


The success of many of China's SOEs is due in part to the reforms that they have put in place at the shareholding level. In some cases, this has included the introduction of strategic investors and the listing of some of their SOEs in capital markets in various parts of the world, from New York, London and Hong Kong.


We will continue engagements with the commission to deepen our own understanding of the way that the Chinese SOE model works. As I said, it is not everything that we will be able to learn from them but there is quite a lot of good that they are doing that we can also learn. This aims to enhance the capacity of the state to reposition SOEs to drive industrialisation and unlock private sector investment between our two countries.


The trip was quite an eye-opener on a number of levels for many of us who participated in it because the success that they have achieved is quite phenomenal. Their SOEs play a critical role in the development of their own economy. There is much that we can learn from them and we intend to do so. Thank you very much.


Ms N GINA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, thank you for sharing with us the experiences and skills learned from China to make sure that our SOEs do contribute positively towards national development. However, moving forward from the experiences that you have gained in China, what can we see with regard to the plans on the support and initiatives to ensure that our SOEs definitely execute their mandates in this country and thus ensure that national development is achieved, as they are there to achieve that. Are there any things that you can share with us as per the plans and initiatives that you have put in place to make sure that they do achieve that.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Some of the outstanding things that we learned from them is the mere management of their SOEs which are well streamlined. It has to do with the co-ordination of their SOEs, which is done through one central body that manages up to 111 SOEs. The governance structure is something that we can learn from. They have more or less a uniform governance structure, and a governance structure that is well aligned to managing even listed companies on the New York Stock Exchange as well as the London Stock Exchange.


It works, it is effective and there is a lot that we can learn from them in terms of people who are appointed to the boards and people who are appointed as executives. They also deal with the remuneration of people who manage their SOEs. They also have process of looking at the business plans of these SOEs which we can learn from. Their planning process is really good and second to none. Some of their SOEs are the largest corporations in their sectors. For instance, China has the larges bank in the world with 600 million customers. They also have the largest telecoms company – China Mobile – in the world with more than 700 million subscribers. With that, we were able to see the extent to which we can learn. They are going to come here to have a workshop with us so that we can expose as many managers and executives from our SOEs to the experience that they have had.


I know that members on the other side are very dismissive of the Chinese experience. You do that to your own peril because China is bound to be the biggest economy in the world. On our side we say that we want to learn from the best and they are now running the best corporations in the world. Corporations that you are accustomed to in the West are diminishing and diminishing in size and in value, so don’t scoff at the lessons that we can learn from China. We have a strategic relationship with China and we intend to exploit is to good effect because they have offered to assist us. They have not offered to dominate us and that to us is an important aspect. [Applause.]


Ms N W MAZZONE: Thank you, Speaker. Mr Deputy President, South Africa’s SOEs are generally in a very bad way. They face great financial problems; labour relations are at an all time low; and the executives earn huge salaries regardless of their performances. In China there are severe consequences for nonperformance of executives and we just heard from you that they have a very interesting management style, although we may not agree with all of them. However, in our country we give golden handshakes and exit bonuses just to get rid of nonperforming executives.


Can the Deputy President tell us exactly what he learnt in terms of holding the executives of SOEs to account; and how he in fact intends to ensure that there are consequences for South African executives who do not perform in their positions at SOEs?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying that not all SOEs are going through difficult times. A number of our SOEs are doing very well. So that you can understand the architecture of our SOES, we have more than 700 SOEs ... 700 of them. The majority of them are doing very well ... extremely well ... and some of them are even able to pay a dividend to the fiscus.


A few of these SOEs are operating in difficult markets. They are difficult markets indeed and I can think of the airlines, the post office and energy. These are very difficult markets and if you look at the league of good performing sectors in the world, some of those are not the best performing sectors. However, we are determined to make sure that they work; that we revamp them; and that they operate better as we move on.


What did we learn from China? Their accountability process is very high, and that is one thing that we can learn from them. They hold their executives to account and they make sure that they perform to plan. The SOEs have shareholder pacts or agreements with the entity. So, that is something they have. We also have that but we obviously need to increase the performance of our SOEs. Mark my words; it’s not all our SOEs that are in difficult conditions. Some of them are; however, we are going to straighten them out and they will start performing well. This is a promise I give you.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you, Speaker. Deputy President, when your president of the ANC addressed the unnecessary press conference yesterday, the Governor of the Reserve Bank was addressing young economists at the Economist of the Year Awards ceremony in Sandton, and they made two very contradictory projections in terms of growth patterns. The President made an unscientific observation, saying that the economy is going to grow by three per cent, while the Governor of the Reserve Bank said that there are turbulences that are confronting the economy, because of an objective capitalist crisis, part of which is the continued importation of metals and other mineral resources from China; the declining demand for commodities from South Africa by China; and broadly, the depreciation of the currency in China.


Are you going to revise your trade relationship with China, particularly with regard to tariff policies? The unions are saying, increase tariffs on steel ... [Inaudible.]


The SPEAKER: Your one minute is over, hon Shivambu.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Are you going to revise your trade relations with China and how do you move forward?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We have a very co-operative relationship with China. We have committed ourselves to discuss everything under the sun that affects our relationship, be it trade, politics and co-operation at a multilateral level. Clearly, this is one of the issues that we will discuss.


Yes, you are right in that our trade unions have raised the issue of tariffs. The world is going through turbulence and it is bound to lead to those who are affected ... and many of our people are affected by the economic turbulence. It is bound to get them to respond in particular ways, and one of the ways of course is to say, increase tariffs so that we don’t have our own sectors or companies wiped out. This is a matter that they have raised prominently and it is going to be discussed. It will be discussed. I know the Department of Trade and Industry is going to discuss it with the unions and that discussion will have a particular outcome.


In doing all this, we will need to strike a balance; a balance between what we are experiencing and what the companies, including workers, are going through, as well as the trade protocols or the trading processes that we have with a country like China. This happens all the time. Sometimes tariffs are increased and reduced, depending on various conditions. In this case, the matter will be discussed.


The strength of our relationship is such that we will be able to discuss the matter and find solutions; solutions of how we continue trading and how we continue dealing with each other. Thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, my question is the following. What did you learn from the Chinese experience with regard to the sale of nonstrategic assets? When we were considering the bailout to Eskom we were told in this very House that certain nonstrategic assets will be disposed of. In particular, I want to ask about disclosure, because this Parliament still does not know what nonstrategic assets are going to be disposed of. I wonder whether the Chinese passed on that information to their parliament and we haven’t learned from that lesson yet.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What we do know is that the Chinese, through their Sasec facility, are able to identify certain enterprises that they believe should either be listed on various stock exchanges in order to achieve certain objectives. Some of the objectives would be either to modernise them; to expand the market; to make them operate outside China; or to raise capital for the further expansion of their corporations.


They always have very clear and focused strategic objectives, and as they either list these entities or invite partners, they do so knowing that they will always have majority control of the entity. Let me give you one good example. I think the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, ICBC, which is the largest bank in the world and is listed in New York, floated 30% of the bank yet they retained control and through that they are able to operate in a number of countries, including here in South Africa and a number of countries in Europe. So they utilise ... parceling out portions of their strategic companies to raise capital and to expand. There’s nothing wrong with that. We think they have chosen a particular path and we will be looking very closely at what we can learn from them.


In relation to the issue that you have raised with regard to Eskom, the Minister of Finance and Treasury are in the process of dealing with that, and at the right moment they will be able to disclose precisely what they are dealing with. However, we have learned from China that you can run your SOEs in such a way that you make them profitable and in such a way that you also make them attractive to other investors, but the important thing to them is that they still retain control; control of the companies that they own so that can achieve their developmental objectives. This is precisely what they have been doing with many of the companies that they own at state level. Thank you very much.


Particulars regarding steps taken to address political impasse in Kingdom of Lesotho


16.          Mr B A Radebe (ANC) asked the Deputy President:


  1. What recommendations did he make to the SADC Double Troika Summit of the Heads of State held on 3 July 2015, regarding the political impasse in the Kingdom of Lesotho;


  1. what are the terms of reference of the commission of inquiry established by the specified Summit regarding the death of Brigadier Mahao of the Kingdom of Lesotho;


(3)        have any preliminary details been given regarding the approved oversight committee that will be established as an early warning system about events that signal potential instability in the region?                              NO3214E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the SADC observer mission, to which I had been appointed as a facilitator, made recommendations for the Kingdom of Lesotho to consider, effecting constitutional and security reforms. Many stakeholders in Lesotho made a number of proposals. These stakeholders were traditional leaders, the churches and the NGOs. As we met and interacted with them, they continued to say that, in order to bring permanent peace and stability to Lesotho, they needed to embark upon a reform process. Let me say that this was based on their own views, as Basotho who felt the need to stabilise their country on a political and security level.


In his inauguration speech, the Prime Minister, Ntate Pakalitha Mosisili, asserted the Lesotho government’s commitment to pursuing such reforms. As he was inaugurated, he said they wanted to embark on a process of reforms. The former Prime Minister, himself, Ntate Tom Thabane, had also supported the proposal for constitutional and security reforms. In fact, he had intimated that on a number of occasions.


The recommendations made by the facilitation team were informed by the experience of the SADC mission on the ground and in fulfillment of the mandate of the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security to promote long-term political and security stability in the Mountain Kingdom. The recommendations that we have made, as a facilitation team, or as SADC, are as follows. Refining the respective roles of the Lesotho Defence Force and the Lesotho Mounted Police Service to remove any areas of overlap in their mandates. As it is now, some of the areas that they have mandates over overlap, and there tends to be tension and problems between the two forces.


Reforms also have to be made on the parliamentary rules, as they affect coalition governments and issues, such as motions of no confidence, the prorogation of parliament and floor crossing. Many of them agree that they need to focus on this with a view to seeing how best this can be managed. They even went on a trip to New Zealand to see how a multiparty or a coalition government can function better, and they were able to learn quite a number of lessons. They, themselves, felt that they need to have some reforms.


We also identified an area, such as the judicial and the civil service area where reforms are needed, as well as at the level of the media.


Processes that could be followed to ensure an inclusive process for the adoption of these reforms, that is, what structure will be set up to effect all these reforms, whether it is a parliamentary one or another entity – either a constitutional assembly or a constitution reform committee – is something that they, themselves, need to deal with. These recommendations were accepted by the SADC Troika when it met.


This process is now in the hands of the Basotho, themselves. We have said, even as SADC accepted these recommendations, that it is now in their hands. They are going to be the sole authors of the reform process that needs to ensue. However, SADC is always going to be there to give whatever assistance it can. The summit also decided on the establishment of a commission of inquiry to investigate the death of Brig Maaparankoe Mahao, the former Lieutenant-General, and matters relating to the border security environment.


The commission of inquiry is underpinned by terms of reference that deal with a number of issues. They will need to review the investigations that have already been started by the defence force into an alleged mutiny plot, covering also the alleged kidnapping of former members of the defence force and the alleged kidnapping or killings of members of the opposition. The commission will also investigate the circumstances surrounding the death of Brig Mahao, the former Lieutenant-General, and investigate the legality and manner of the appointment of Brig Mahao.


It will also focus its attention on investigating the legality and the manner of the removal of Lt-Gen Kamoli as the Head of the Lesotho Defence Force, in 2014, as well as his reappointment in 2015. There have been views that his reappointment has actually led to a number of divisions and tensions in Lesotho, and this commission of inquiry is going to spend quite a bit of time investigating that. Lastly, it will investigate the allegations made by opposition parties and civil society that the instability in Lesotho now is because Kamoli was reappointed.


These are proposals that have been put forward. However, let me say that the government and the opposition parties have also made proposals on expanding the terms of reference. These proposals are going to be put to the SADC Troika Summit that is going to take place in Botswana. We are hoping that they will be discussed by the leaders, and, if approved, they will form part of the terms of reference that will guide the work of the commission. The commission itself is headed by the Botswana High Court judge, Judge Mpapi Mphumaphi, and includes experts from Botswana, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Malawi and South Africa in fields such as law, criminal investigation and forensic science.


Without belabouring the point, the other decision was the setting up of an oversight committee that is going to be focusing on an early-warning mechanism in the event of instability, and make sure that it intervenes at the appropriate time before things escalate into further instability. This committee will be led by a political appointee and it will include political, intelligence and police and military components. It will assist in ensuring that SADC is able to, timeously, deal with signs of political insecurity and instability.


We believe that, once all these matters have been handled, once the commission of inquiry has finished its work and once the constitutional and security reforms are put in place, Lesotho will definitely return to much longer-term stability and peace. The Southern African Development Community is determined to continue assisting the people of Lesotho to make sure there is peace and security in the Mountain Kingdom. I thank you.


Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, we support the notion of African solutions to African problems. However, these solutions must be delivered timeously, because the loss of one life – like that of Brig Mahao - is one life too many.


Since the commission of inquiry is the initiative of SADC, firstly, what is the timeframe allocated for the commission to complete its work; and secondly, how will SADC ensure the credibility of the commission and the enforcement of its recommendations? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the timeframe that the Double Troika of SADC agreed to was 60 days. So, the commission has been given 60 days to do its work and report back to SADC. We hope that, within these 60 days, they will be able to do all that. They have already commenced their work. They have started working based on the terms that exist now. In a few days’ time, those terms could be expanded, and they will continue working.


With regard to credibility, this is as credible as you can get. It has got a high court judge from Botswana and quite a number of other people who are independent – I would say, fiercely independent. They are going to do their work without fear or favour and they are going to make sure that they base everything that they do on fact. In fact, Judge Phumaphi announced yesterday that they are going to base everything they do on facts. They want people who can come with facts to table them, so that they can evaluate those facts and come to some conclusions. We believe that this is a high-powered commission, and able to execute its work.


As to the implementability, if one can use that term, of their findings, those findings will be presented to SADC and SADC will be able to evaluate the work that they have done and come to certain recommendations. These recommendations will be made to various stakeholders in Lesotho, like political parties and NGOs. Many of them will probably have some role or other to play in the implementation of the findings.


We are hoping that the people of Lesotho will give this commission an opportunity to do its work, that they will co-operate with the commission and go to the commission to present whatever evidence on whatever issue it is going to conduct its investigation on. I think this is a great opportunity for Lesotho to use this process started by SADC to move forward with a greater determination to embrace peace and stability and to make sure that the political stability that they will have in Lesotho will be long term, because, frankly speaking, Lesotho has been dogged by a number of incidents that have led to feelings of instability.


Right now, however, the situation is stable. We are hoping that we will be able to deepen that stability once the commission has given its findings, and that everybody will abide by the findings of the commission and the recommendations from SADC. Thank you, Madam Speaker.



Cluster 1

Intentions regarding role to be played by Defence Force Service Commission


230.        Mr B H Holomisa (UDM) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:


Whether, in appreciation of the work of the Defence Force Service Commission which has been presented to parliament previously, she will consider convening a brainstorming session involving her Ministry, the Commission, the Secretary of Defence and the command element of the SA National Defence Force, to amongst others, consider the effectiveness of the Defence Force Service Commission in particular with respect to the promise made to soldiers that its powers will be equivalent to that of the Public Service Commission instead of being an advisory body to her?                                                                                                                           NO3046E


The SPEAKER: Thank you very much to the Deputy President. That concludes the question session to the Deputy President. We now come to questions to Ministers in the Peace and Security Cluster.


Question 230 has been asked by Dr H B Holomisa to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. I have been informed that the Deputy Minister will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Speaker, in delivering her Budget Vote address on 19 May 2015, the Minister indicated the following in relation to the Defence Force Service Commission and I quote:


The permanent Defence Force Service Commission was appointed in 2013, but it does have challenges. The possible inadequacies of the commission’s powers to fulfil its mandate are being addressed so that it is empowered to undertake all matters envisioned by section 198 of the Constitution for members in uniform.


This commitment followed on an earlier meeting in 2015 of the council on defence where the same matter was raised in the presence of the military command. Therefore, the Minister has committed herself to a process of consultations in considering the review of the powers of the commission. Thank you.


Mr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson, in light of your response, hon Deputy Minister, when should we expect the hon Minister to amend the relevant legislation in order to strengthen the powers of the commission?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: As I have indicated earlier that we are in the process of reviewing the powers of the commission and therefore, it would be premature for me to comment on the... [Inaudible]. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I see the name of Mr Ndlozi, is there somebody who is taking the follow up?


Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon Minister, the Defence Force Service Commission was established in 2013, but to date, thousands of defence force reservist are still forced into slavelike working conditions. They get called up when the department needs them and when they don’t need them they throw them back into the streets. We are not just talking of ordinary labour, we are talking of the youth that has been trained to use dangerous weapons, but they are being thrown into the street.


The question to you is that, is this not a total disregard of the rights of the reservists to fair labour practices and how has the commission fared thus far in preventing your department from abusing the defence force reservists?


But before you answer that question, maybe it’s important that I remind you of section 23 (1) of the Constitution that says “everyone has a right to fair labour practices”. Thank you.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: It is not true that the South African National Defence Force is not taking care of its reserve force. As you know that when you are a reservist you are called as and when you are required. For example, you must be called four times in a year and you give other reservists a chance to serve. However, there are other reservists who are used beyond the borders of South Africa. There are a lot of reservists who have been called and there is no way that the defence force can just dump the members of the reserve force.


Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, this promise on the Defence Force Service Commission sounds like another poorly considered option to influence people’s behaviour and favour. The Public Service Commission is a section 10 institution and to promise that the Defence Force Service Commission will have powers and status equal to that of the Public Service Commission is not only opportunistic, but it would also require a constitutional amendment as well.


What were the motive and the intention of the Minister when this unrealistic promise was made to the soldiers? Was it just to please them and their demands at the time? I thank you.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: As I have also indicated earlier that we are reviewing the powers of the Defence Force Service Commission. You would know that there is a mandate committee that is Cabinet based. So, the Defence Force Service Commission is not above that committee. So, we can’t do things that are beyond our mandate as the Defence Force Service Commission.


However, the Defence Force Service Commission is not only looking at a certain level, it is looking broadly on the services of the uniform wearing members of the defence force.


Mr M A MNCWANGO: Chairperson, we had hoped that the establishment of the Defence Force Service Commission was going to help alleviate some of the challenges that the defence force and its members are facing. Deputy Minister, at the present moment we find that our troops are of extremely low morale.

What is your department doing to expedite and give this matter priority, specifically in order to alleviate the kind of conditions that exist now in the defence force, which lead to this dampening of moral amongst our troops? Is it possible for the Deputy Minister to give a specific time frame within which this structure will actually be up and running?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Indeed, hon Mncwango. That is why we said we are reviewing the powers of the commission. The commission has looked into all the issues that you have raised and it has made the recommendations and it is the view of the Minister that these issues that have been raised by soldiers are addressed as a matter of urgency. And at a correct time, when the Minister meets with the commission and other stakeholders, we think they will come up with answers urgently to address these issues that have been raised by the soldiers.


Particulars regarding attrition rate in SA Police Service


220.        Ms M A Molebatsi (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:


Whether a study has been done to investigate the reasons for the increase in the number of police members leaving the SA Police Services (SAPS); if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the reasons for the resignations and (b) how will the apparent problems in the current SAPS work environment be addressed?                                                                                                  NO3020E


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, indeed, an analysis was conducted. We have established that there are various reasons as to why people leave the SA Police Service amongst which is pursuance of better remuneration, taking up occupation in other areas, pursuing further studies as well as business interest, issues of misconduct as well as some issues of uncertainty pertaining to pension rumours.


For the year 2013-14 we had 2 459 resignations, and in 2014-15 financial year, we had 4 477 resignations. Therefore, the variance in so far as the issue of resignations are concerned in the two preceding financial years stand at 2 018 members. The attrition rate for the SA Police Service for the financial year 2014-15 stands at 3,8%. The above information excludes service termination, which essentially means normal retirement and early retirements, ill-health, and those that are discharged based on section 35 of the South African Police Service Act, deaths and dismissals.

We have addressed this particular problem through the joint Road shows, amongst others, with the government employee’s pension fund in all provinces and divisions. The SA Police Service is in the process of appointing a remuneration specialist to look into a benefit structure of the police service, which will include salaries, allowances and retention of employees. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Ms M A MOLEBATSI: Ke go leboge Motlotlegi Modulasetulo, ke go leboge le wena Motlotlegi Tona, ke ipoe kgatsu ke re ... [Thank you hon Chairperson and hon Minister, once more, let me say this ...]


Whether the recently announced campaign to enlisted former SAPS members, is bearing fruit, and what are the relevant details? Ke a leboga. Thank you.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chairperson, I would request that I table that particular response, which will essentially give the numbers and reflections on the amount of work that is being done on that particular front with due respect sir. Thank you very much.


Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you Chairperson, the number of police leaving the service has almost tripled in the past three years, 7 000 in the last financial year. Now, the management is begging senior officers to re-enlist. However, despite the years of service they also comeback at no higher than a Lieutenant position, even if they were a General when they left.


Now, Minister, we had seen them driven out over the most absurd moral of killing promotion decisions. We see juniors bounced over seniors, seniors told they would never be promoted, and the bundle pension issue you referred to. The policy to protect police deaths has never been implemented, seven murdered in twelve days.


When will you ask the President to rid the SAPS of the National Police Commissioner who has overseen this catastrophe; and what are you doing to stop this outgoing flooded expertise? I’m not holding my back for the outcome of yet another commission.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, let me just say that in the context of the SA Police Service, indeed these matters will continue to engage us to look at ways and means of how do we actually transform and eventually reform the police service itself. So, that is an ongoing challenge now, but I have already dealt with the issue of what is the actual range of reasoning as to why members do leave the police service. So that stands as is.


With regard to the question that is being pursued by the hon member, she is well aware that the President made some pronouncements recently. A particular process is being followed. I think I would urge that, that is what we actually, all of us, we have to respect, for the President to finally give some guidance as far as that issue is concerned. Thank you.


Mr K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the increasing number of police officers who are being killed is not good for our country unless these killings are stopped, we might lose experienced officers through early retirements and resignations because of fear for their lives. The ACDP believes that police should not just be paid better salaries, but they should be shown greater appreciation for the difficult and dangerous job they are doing.


Why is the government not improving the capacity of the police and equipping them with weapons that are more sophisticated, so that they can defend themselves against the criminals? This we believe will help to boost their moral, which we understand according to various reports, is at an all time low. I thank you.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much Chair, indeed, I think as South Africans, all of us should be extremely concerned with the ongoing police killings. I think at this level of the political leadership of the country we do need to also take stock in asking ourselves largely the question of what is it that all of us can do to ensure that we actually deal with this particular problem at a societal level.


Now, my view, hon Meshoe, is that the starting point is to educate our people that members of the police service belong to us, in other words the police themselves are the South African community and so forth. So we need to value them.


Therefore, also the manner in which we deal with issues of policing at broader communities and societal level must be in such a manner that we reinforce a positive moral and constructive moral amongst members of the police, but also reassuring within the South African citizen itself. I think that is largely the work that has to be done at the political level, I would so think. Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Is there a member from the NFP that has pressed the button of the hon Msibi? I just request hon members to ensure that they press the button in front of their desk to avoid any confusion.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you Chairperson, hon Minister, it is quite evident that we have lost quite a few of our police officers through resignation, through loss of life. What programme or process have you got in place hon Minister, to ensure that you attract the right kind and quality of police officers with regard to the fact that we now have a very high crime rate in South Africa? Seven thousand and a half is resigning or leaving the police force, this will have a negative impact on police in general in South Africa. Thank you.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon members, the normal exercise is, of course, that following the rules of the natural attrition, we have to replace people who leave. So, we do that. However, we also have been looking into some measures that would assist us in recruiting; particularly - and I think you mentioned a critical point - the correct characters of people that we require within the police service.


On project basis, we started-off in 2014, for instance, to introduce something that we call the community-based kind of recruitment strategy amongst other things, so that members of the community also have a particular sort of a guided say about the type of people that we need to have within the police service. However, that in itself is still an ongoing work. Thank you very much.


Remedial action taken to stop violent abuse of the elderly


257.        Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Police:


  1. Whether he has received any reports or complaints from elderly women, who are allegedly raped almost daily by young men in Disteneng, Polokwane, and who claim that they cannot lay charges because the nearest police station is said to be almost 10 km away (details furnished); if so, what remedial action has he taken to stop the violent abuse of the elderly;


(2)        whether a mobile police station can be provided to the community as an interim measure to ensure there is a security presence in this area; if not, why not?  NO3208E


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the area called Disteneng was serviced until recently by the Westenburg police station which is about 4km away. Since August 2014 to date, no incidents of rape of elderly women from age 60 and older were reported.


The Polokwane Municipality recently relocated the Disteneng community to another area that now falls under the Seshego police station called extension 106, which is approximately three to 6km away from the Seshego South African Police Service.


Mobile services are currently not available at Seshego police station as it is not situated far from the community. However, since they were only relocated six weeks ago, the station is in the process of establishing a community police forum, CPF, sub-forum in the new village.


Since the publication of the report, numerous attempts were made to locate the mentioned elderly victims, but to no avail. Renewed efforts will be made to locate the victims to conduct a proper investigation.


Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, I am actually surprised to hear the Minister say that there have been no reports lately of incidents of rape. The latest we have heard is elderly women saying that they are scared when evening comes because they are expecting young boys to come in at any time to rape them. There are even those who say that, when they go to bed, they know anything can happen at any time.


Many of those who are victims are saying that the police station is situated too far from where they live. They cannot get there in time. That is why they are pleading for a mobile police station to be located nearby so that, if anything should happen, they do not have that far to go.


Now, the question is, why was the mobile police station – that they had before – removed. They once had a mobile police station, but it has been taken away. They are saying that, since its removal, there have been a number of rapes of elderly women at night.


So, I want to know from the hon Minister, in the light of allegations that crimes of rape are still carrying on, is the Minister going to consider getting a mobile police station, even if it’s not from Seshego, but from somewhere else so that the people there can stay in safety?


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much hon Chair, let me just say that, maybe, on the broader point really ... I think all of us have a role to play at community level, in so far as encouraging, for instance, the level of reporting. What I am talking about here are statistical issues in terms of what happened between August 2014 to date, because we have not received any particular sort of reports of that particular nature.


And it’s important therefore what we need to do ... Indeed, if there are such complains at a community level, we need to encourage our people to report such cases at our designated police stations. So that’s the one issue ...


In relation to the ... For instance, one of the reasoning considered here is that the Seshego police station is not far from where the community is located. But all we can do perhaps is that this particular matter can still be followed up to look at ways and means of how do we then assist members of the community if indeed there is a feeling that there is a dislocation in such a manner that they are not then exposed to the actual policing services as they should be. I think it is a matter that one can still follow up.


Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, in December 2013, former Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa, stated that the SA Police Service, SAPS, will prioritise crimes against elderly persons as part of its festive season operations in that year. In particular, concerning the rape of the elderly, he highlighted that key to the intervention strategy going forward was the specialised capacity for investigations and victim supports that is located in the Family Violence Child Support and Sexual Offences or FCS units.


But right now, Minister, unfortunately this operational environment still suffers the four “unders” of our police service: they are understaffed, under-resourced, underequipped and undertrained.


So my question, Minister, is what are you planning to accelerate and scale up the establishments and strengthening of the FCS units across the country so that elderly women, particularly those in rural areas who face the threat of rape, can be assured of an effective policing response.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, sir, we are taking the stock of the overall function of FCS units, and I think we are taking stock in terms of the lessons that we are learning out of the work that have been conducted at the level of the FCS. I think that will then also inform us in terms of what areas in particular we need to strengthen. The whole question of how do we reinforce our capacity in dealing with the issue of this particular nature ...


But alongside this issue is that, across South Africa there has been quite an issue around the question of the resource allocation guide, for example. The manner in which we deploy resources and so on has been frequently raised in community engagements and so on. And we are therefore beginning to also focus ourselves in that particular direction.


Mr F BEUKMAN: Chairperson, hon Minister, in your response to hon Meshoe you referred to the fact that a sub-CPF has been established in that area. There are many rural areas where there is a shortage of mobile police stations. What can be the role of the CPF and especially street committees in involving the community in the fight against crime?


The MINISTER OF POLICE: For starters, hon Chair, I think we need to revive the vibrancy and effectiveness of the CPFs. Since CPFs offer the issue of policing at a community level, they must begin to occupy a central role. Indeed, CPFs must be seen as an extension of community oversight and civilian control over the work of the police. So we do need to emphasise that. Internally the police service is taking stock of the overall functioning of the CPFs.


But CPFs can only be successful if only behind them we are able to effectively mobilise our communities to take direct interest in issues of policing and in issues of safety. It is through such community engagements that we can have an increased and hightened level of social awareness around issues of policing.


Mr M MNCWANGO: Hon Chairperson, arising from the Minister’s response, I would just like to know whether the Minister has any particular programme in place to correct the skewed police presence – previously in favour of urban areas and towns – through the construction of actual, physical police stations in rural areas that currently have none.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, firstly, I think hon Mncwango raises quite a crucial point. The imbalance and the misalignment that you find in so far as the deployment of resources around policing ... The urban bias and of course the rural areas being somewhat at a disadvantage.


Now I said earlier on during this very same question session that one of the issues that we are looking at is the question of resource allocation guide itself and how we should begin to try and strike the balance between the urban rural divide. It is quite a critical thing. For instance, there are many rural areas across the country that had a particular population size, but most of them have really ballooned and yet we still remain with the kind of resources we had previously.


I think that’s a very valid point and it’s an issue that we will want to take on moving forward in terms of reviewing our resource allocation.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, Question 224 was asked by the hon D D Raphuti, to the Minister of International Relations and –Cooperation. I have been informed that the hon Deputy Minister Landers will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister.


Progress made since BRICS summit in Brazil


224.        Ms D D Raphuti (ANC) asked the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation:


  1. What substantive progress has been made regarding (a) the New Development Bank and (b) the Contingent Reserve Arrangement since the BRICS summit in Fortaleza in Brazil;


(2)        what steps have been taken to enhance trade co-operation between BRICS countries, particularly in the context of the export credit agencies of BRICS?           NO3025E




(1) (a) In the context of the Ufa Declaration from the 7th Brazil-Russia-India-China-South Africa allies Summit, known as 7th Bricks Summit, the Bricks allies leaders welcome the substantive progress that was made since the previous summit, especially the establishment of Bricks financial institutions, the New Development Bank, NDB, and the Contingent Reserved Arrangement, CRA.


Bricks leaders also announced that the Ufa Summit marked their entry into force. South Africa deposited its instrument of ratification for the agreement on the New Development Bank with the federative Republic of Brazil on 30 June 2015 as the depository state for this agreement.


Bricks leaders further welcome the inaugural meeting of the Board of Governors of the NDB, held on 7 July 2015 in Moscow, under Russian chairpersonship, as well as the work done by the interim board of directors and the pre-management group aimed at the earliest launch of the bank.


Bricks leaders reiterated that the NDB shall serve as a powerful instrument for financing infrastructure investment and sustainable development projects in the Bricks, at other developing countries and emerging market economies, and for enhancing economic co-operation between Bricks countries.


Bricks leaders directed that they expect the NDB to approve its inaugural investment projects in the beginning of 2016. Bricks leaders also welcomed the proposal for the NDB to co-operate closely with existing and new financing mechanism, including the Asian Infrastructure and Investment Bank.


The NDB was officially launched in Shanghai on 21 July 2015. South Africa was represented at this launch by Mr Leslie Maasdorp, Vice-President of the NDB and by Mr Tito Mboweni, Non-Executive Board Director of the NDB. The SA Consulate-General was also in attendance.


The President of the NDB, Mr K V Khamath, from India, noted in his opening address, “The important milestone that has been achieved in moving towards operationalising the New Development Bank,” and further outlined his expectations of the bank, as well as what is envisaged to be a roadmap for the next and for the duration of his tenure.


As a multilateral development established by emerging markets, five countries with a common objective in particular, it would be important to act in line with the developmental imperatives shared by the countries of the global south.


Vice-President, Mr Maasdorp, has remarked that, “Bricks and other developing countries face serious financing shortages for infrastructure projects such as new railroads and power stations.” The NDB can assist to supplement funding that traditional multilateral development banks, such as the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, IMF, provide.


The NDB will also gauge best practices from existing institutions with a view to providing new best practices. In this regard, it could focus on investing in new technologies and sustainable development related investments. The bank will also discuss if countries could apply for loans in their own currency in order to prevent their debt increasing when the dollar strengthens.


South Africa is an equal shareholder, together with other Bricks partners. South Africa will hopefully be able to obtain favourable loans for infrastructure developments and the bank’s foreign exchange reserves could assist to stabilise our own currency. South Africa’s recognised excellence in financial matters will also enable it to contribute to the operationalisation of the New Development Bank’s African Regional Centre.


(b) Bricks leaders welcome the conclusion of the ratification process of the treaty, establishing a Contingent Reserve Arrangement of the Bricks and its entry into force, as well as the signing of the Bricks into central bank agreement, CBA, that sets technical parameters of our operations within the Bricks CRA.


Bricks leaders commented that, “The creation of the Bricks’ CRA will allow its members to provide mutual financial support,” which was deemed as an important step in the financial co-operation of Bricks countries. It bears no immediate or direct financial implication and will only be activated once a member makes a call for capital, according to the agreed share but with the important condition of repayment. [Time expired.]


Ms D D RAPHUTI: Thank you Deputy Minister. This is a very exciting initiative, from ideas to reality. Can the Deputy Minister outline: How will the Bricks New Development Bank, as a powerful instrument to finance infrastructure investment and sustainable development, benefit South African citizens, African citizens and the other developing countries’ citizens?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS (Mr L T Landers) ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Hon Chairperson, as I pointed out in my initial response, the New Development Bank will serve as a powerful instrument for financing infrastructure investment and sustainable development projects in the Bricks, at other developing countries and emerging market economies.


As we know, a serious shortcoming on the African continent is in the field of infrastructure development. South Africa has been given the task of leading in resolving this particular problem, and as such, it is ideally placed in the Bricks to ensure that this occurs within the shortest possible time. In the process it will provide the much-needed employment opportunities for countries within the continent, as far as even villages that the hon member referred to.


Ms S V KALYAN: House Chairperson, through you: I would like to say to the Deputy Minister that this morning’s briefing in the portfolio committee was quite enlightening, in view of the anti-Bricks sentiment that exists at the moment. However, the devil lies in the detail. Deputy Minister, can you explain: How and from which department’s budget will the authorised capital of the initial $2 billion and the contingent reserve of $5 billion be referred? Perhaps say too: What effect this may have on the funding of other government priorities?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS (Mr L T Landers) ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Hon Chairperson, my response to the hon Kalyan would be that this funding will come obviously direct from Treasury ... [Interjections.] Yes, really! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue, hon Deputy Minister!


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS (Mr L T Landers) ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: It will come from Treasury, via the Cabinet obviously and I would imagine that a role for this Parliament would be played. The hon Kalyan is quite right, there is enormous anti-Bricks sentiment and it’s clearly directed at ensuring that the New Development Bank fails. However, it is for us as members of Bricks to ensure that this does not happen. We want to give the assurance that it will not fail!


Now, how am I a Deputy Minister? [Laughter.] [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Deputy Minister, I think you must rather address me and complete your response. Thank you. [Interjections.] Order, hon members. The hon Mente. [Interjections.] There has been a request for a follow-up question from the hon Mente. [Interjections.] The hon Esterhuizen!


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: May I stand through a point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just take a seat, hon Esterhuizen. I will come back to you. Why are you rising hon Chief Whip of the Opposition?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am rising because part of the rules says that gestures themselves, that are threatening in nature, form part of unacceptable behaviour in Parliament. Perhaps the Deputy Minister – and I can see why he is a Deputy Minister of International Relations – would like explain why he is pointing to my member - going like this - and saying, “I will see you outside!”


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon members. Let’s not make gestures in the House because I have seen gestures on both sides of the House. Let’s refrain from that and allow the hon Esterhuizen to ask his follow-up question. Hon Esterhuizen!


Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: House Chair and hon Deputy Minister, I think it is quite clear to the country that we stand to benefit greatly from our part of our participation in the Bricks agreement, with our President Zuma stating that trade amongst Bricks countries is up by 70%, which is extremely high figure.


The establishment of the New Development Bank African Regional Centre of the Bricks in Johannesburg could be a useful connecting factor and contribute to local development in South Africa and on the continent. My question is: How much has Brick capital investment contributed into the local market to date, and do global banks see the development bank as a bank that caters only to First World countries or as a role-player in global financial transactions as well?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS (Mr L T Landers) ON BEHALF THE MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Hon Chairperson, I thank the hon Esterhuizen for the question. The global banks at this point are silent on the whole question of the New Development Bank. Whether they see this, as a bank that provides for the Third World countries, or for the First World countries, is up for debate.


As far we are concerned, because Bricks is made up of the five developing countries, we see the bank as responsible for developmental issues for countries of the south. We view that opening of the African Regional Centre with much excitement and we are looking forward to that. It can’t happen too soon for us!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank hon Deputy Minister. Hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired. [Interjections.] Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.






Mr M WATERS: I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House debates Police brutality and racism at the Edenvale Police Station and at the Ekurhuleni Metro Police Department.


Ms D P MANANA: I hereby move on behalf of the ANC that at its next sitting:


This House debates the impact that school sport has on the development and career opportunities for the youth in South Africa.


Mr L J BASSON: I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:

This House –


  1. debates the state of South Africa’s wastewater infrastructure and the extent to which they are collapsing; and


  1. furthermore debates the effects it has on our water resources.


MR J A ESTERHUIZEN I hereby move on behalf of the IFP that at its next sitting:


This House –


  1. debates the looming crisis of job losses within the mining sector, reports of which allude to the plans by mine owners to shed jobs in order to make their business more profitable envisaging the loss of 50 000 jobs to the sector within the next two years; and


  1. further debates the strategies that must immediately be put into place at government level in order to avert this potential socioeconomic disaster.


Mr M H MATLALA: I hereby move on behalf of the ANC that on its next sitting:


This House debates the need for mining companies to improve on their social responsibility roles in order to avoid social conflicts.


Dr W G JAMES: I hereby move on behalf of the DA that on its next sitting:


This House debates the subject of drugs and the harm they wrought to our nation’s health and discuss solutions thereto.


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: I hereby move on behalf of the IFP that at its next sitting:


This House –


  1. debates the countless obstacles victims of gender-based violence face when seeking justice, which leads to an estimated 50% of such cases being withdrawn; and


  1. further debates what the Department of Women in the Presidency and other government departments can do to address this challenge.


Ms B N DLULANE: I hereby move on behalf of the ANC that at its next sitting:


This House debates the impact that the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, can have on the development of sport in South Africa.


Prof N M KHUBISA: I hereby move on behalf of the NFP that at its next sitting:


This House discusses the high incidence of armed robberies in our country.


Mr J J MC GLUWA: I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House debates the escalating corruption in the public service and transgressions by head of departments and senior managers for their failure to disclose conflicts of interests.


MR A F MADELLA I hereby move on behalf of the ANC that at its next sitting:


This House debates uniting the working class, our communities and our movement as part of driving a second more radical phase of our transition. [Applause.]


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House –


  1. debates the growing economic crisis facing South Africa, noting:


  1. South Africa’s unemployment rate has skyrocketed from 31,7% in 2009 to 34,9% in 2015, with almost 8,4 million South Africans now unemployed. Of those two in every three are young people;


  1. the GDP growth is focused at 2% for 2015, falling far short of the 4,5% of other developing African economies as expected to achieve this year;


  1. the figure released yesterday by Statistics SA  shows that the manufacturing production decreased by 1,2% in the second quarter of 2015 when compared to the first quarter; and


  1. six out of the 10 manufacturing divisions reported negative growth rates over this period; and


  1. notes that I believe Parliament must now debate real solution that will rescue our economy and create jobs for South Africans that they desperately need. [Applause.]


MR H M Z MMEMEZI I hereby move on behalf of the ANC that at its next sitting:


This House debates reducing the persisting high levels of racialised, gendered and class inequality, unemployment and poverty


MR C MACKENZIE: I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House -


  1. debates the role of telecommunications and information technology as a means by which citizens improve access to government; and


  1. further debates how e-government can be fully utilised for improved service delivery for all our people.


Ms S P KOPANE: I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House debates the scourge of corruption within SA Social Security Agency, SASSA, its impact on the vulnerable people of our society and solutions thereto.


MR H C C KRUGER I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House debates the role that the Department of Planning Monitoring and Evaluation must play to reduce red tape which hampers the growth of small business development and job creation.


MR M S MALATSI I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:


This House debates violations of the Labour Relations Act and fair labour practices by football clubs in the Premier Soccer League, PSL, and national first division.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr M U KALAKO: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House —


  1. notes with excitement the brilliant performance by South African athletes, Chad Ho, Chad le Clos and Cameron van der Burgh, who all together collected five medals for South Africa at the 2015 Fina World Championships in Kazan, in Russia, over the weekend, which ended on Sunday, 9 August 2015;


  1. further notes that Chad Ho won a gold medal, whilst Chad le Clos won gold and silver and Cameron van der Burg two silver medals;


  1. recognises that South Africa has managed to equal the number of medals it achieved in the 2013 Fina World Championships with five medals in total and improved with having two gold and three silver medals, as compared to two gold, two silver and one bronze in the 2013 Fina World Championships; and


  1. congratulates our athletes and wishes them more success in their future endeavors and thanks them for flying the South African flag high.


The motion is not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Dr W G JAMES: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House —

  1. notes that in October, Prof Quarraisha Abdool Karim, one of our leading HIV/Aids researchers, will be inducted into the US National Academy of Medicine, one of the highest honours in the field of health and medicine;


  1. recalls that she, a former mathematics and science teacher, was instrumental in setting up an HIV/Aids clinic in Vulindlela, Pietermaritzburg, 14 years ago, in response to a local chief’s call to stop, and I quote: “people from dying of HIV”;


  1. also recalls that she has been awarded an A-rating from the National Research Foundation for her pioneering work in HIV-prevention research;


  1. further recalls that she, with her husband Salim, headed up the Center for Aids Programme of Research and is an honorary professor in public health at the Nelson Mandela School of Medicine at the University of KwaZulu-Natal as well as a professor in clinical epidemiology at New York’s Columbia University;


  1. acknowledges that Prof Karim’s greatest breakthrough came when her team showed that antiretroviral drugs applied as a microbicide gel help women prevent HIV and herpes infection; and


  1. conveys our heartfelt congratulations for her magnificent achievement in the health sciences, in service of the South African people and many others who suffer from such a devastatingly infectious disease.


Motion not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Dr H CHEWANI: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House —


  1. notes the despicable and abusive approach of Pastor Penuel Mnguni at the End of Times Disciples Ministries in Soshanguve, Pretoria, who has been feeding people snakes and rats over the past few months, all in the name of Christianity;
  2. further notes that the same pastor had asked women to take off their clothes so that he could pray for them and asked people to eat human hair, ants, leaves and all kind of things that have nothing do with the Christian faith and everything to do with the satanic dehumanisation of our people;


  1. further notes that the EFF decided to visit the church last Sunday to ask the pastor to eat the snakes and the rats that he has been feeding our people in his church and when the EFF got there, the pastor had run away, further confirming our belief that he is not prepared to taste the snakes and rats that he is feeding our people;


  1. acknowledges the anger of the community of Soshanguve, who decided to pull down and burn the tent that the 23-year-old naughty pastor used to mislead our people;


  1. further notes that delinquents such as this pastor find fertile ground to mislead our people in the name of faith, because our people are vulnerable as a result of poverty and economic apartheid that they are subjected to under the leadership of the ANC;


  1. calls on the ANC government to take the need for economic emancipation of our people as the biggest challenge to the maintenance of peace and sanity in this country; and


  1. further calls on the leaders of faith, such as the SA Council of Churches to do all in their power to prevent chancers such as Mnguni to continue soiling the Christian religion in the manner that this pastor and others do.


Motion not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Ms Z C FAKU: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House —


  1. welcomes the recent appointment of Dr Gwen Ramokgopa as the Chancellor of the Tshwane University of Technology;


  1. further notes that Dr Ramokgopa, former Deputy Minister of Health and Mayor of the City of Tshwane, was installed as TUT’s third chancellor on 10 June 2015 at the University of Pretoria campus;


  1. acknowledges that, as a visionary, she has always been passionate about success and excellence in every cause she commits to;


  1. recalls that, in her various roles and responsibilities, Dr Ramokgopa has demonstrated her passion and commitment to issues of justice, leadership, innovation and excellence; and


  1. congratulates Dr Ramokgopa on her recent appointment.


Motion not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr N SINGH: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. conveys its deepest condolences on the sad passing of the Durban born kwaito musician known to many as R Mashesha, born Sibusiso Khomo;


  1. notes that R Mashesha, was a member of the South African music award-winning group, Big Nuz, which has been instrumental in popularising the genre known as Durban Kwaito;


  1. further notes that Khomo died on August 7 following complications after undergoing surgery;


  1. acknowledges that the group was set to promote their latest album titled “For the fans” which was to be launched on the same day when news of the death of one of their members put everything to a standstill; and


  1. finally, further acknowledges that this is a great loss to the music industry as Mr Khomo was said to be the brains behind the catchy and entertaining lyrics that have seen the group enjoy so much success.


Not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr N PAULSEN: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes the President’s media briefing on the progress update and his lack of understanding of the state of the economy, as he continues to think that South African economy is growing or recovering when things are getting worse;


  1. notes that the revised 3% gross domestic product, GDP, growth is misguided and unwarranted as there is no clear indication from any direction that the economy is improving;


  1. further notes that the crisis in the mining and steel sector, recession in the manufacturing sector, electricity constraints and possible job losses will lead to a negative GDP growth;


  1. condemns Mr Zuma for failing to recognise and understand the magnitude of the catastrophic economic crisis that is looming;


  1. calls on the Minister of Finance, and the rest of the economic cluster Ministers to advise the President accordingly and stop giving misleading information which reveals his lack of understanding and knowledge of the economy and everything that is happening in the country.


Not agreed to.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I would honestly urge the Whips to deal with this matter of Motions without Notice. There has been an established practice in the past regarding how we deal with these different motions. Some of them are very important and it seems to me that there is no agreement in terms of the processing thereof. The Motions without Notice are a very important element of parliamentary democracy and I urge parties to get together so that we can treat this with the necessary respect and also the urgency that it deserves.



(Draft Resolution)


Mr M MNCWANGO: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that 60 police officers have been killed since January this year;


  1. further notes that eight police officers were killed in the past two weeks alone;


  1. conveys condolences to the families and loved ones of the 60 SAPS members who lost their lives;


  1. acknowledges that an urgent national plan to address the increase in police killings is now urgently needed;


  1. further acknowledges that the levels of crime and lawlessness have reached unacceptable levels in our country; and


  1. calls on all police officers to be vigilant at all times and for South Africans to ensure that all sectors of society play an active role in combating crime.


Not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that South Africa’s National Netball team, the SPAR Proteas, are currently playing in the Netball World Cup tournament in Sydney, Australia;


  1. also notes that the SPAR Proteas had a confidence-boosting victory over Wales in their first match in the second round of the Netball World Cup in Sydney on Tuesday, beating the Welsh team by 60 goals to 38;


  1. further notes that South Africa will play against the defending champions, Australia, on Wednesday and world number three, England, on Friday;


  1. finally notes that the Proteas need to win one of these two matches against Australia and England to qualify for the semi-finals;


  1. therefore, we call upon this hon House to congratulate the Spar Proteas on their convincing win over the national team of Wales; and


  1. wish the team success in their match against Australia.


Not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Ms P T VAN DAMME: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that the Public Protector, Advocate Thuli Madonsela, was honoured with yet another accolade last week when she received the annual Woman of Substance Award from the African Women Chartered Accountants association;


  1. notes that the award ceremony was held in Bryanston on Thursday, 6 August, and was attended by special guest, former Deputy President and current undersecretary-General of the United Nations, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka;


  1. further notes that this prestigious award was bestowed on Advocate Madonsela for her quality leadership in areas of governance and business to advance gender equality;


  1. acknowledges that this is merely the latest honour for Advocate Madonsela, who last year made the Time magazine list of the 100 most influential women in the world;


  1. congratulates Advocate Madonsela on receiving this acclaimed award; and


  1. thanks Advocate Thuli Madonsela for her diligence and unwavering support in upholding and protecting the Constitution.


Not agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)


Ms O MOKAUSE: House Chair, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that on Sunday 09 August, the EFF held a successful Women’s Day rally at Siyabuswa Community Hall in Mpumalanga to celebrate the role women have and continued to play in shaping our society;


  1. further notes that this event was attended by more than 3 000 women who have all committed themselves to the [Interjections.] struggle  of liberating women in their life time and who came to listen to the commander in chief of the EFF and the president of South Africa in waiting, president Julius Malema who talk about the need for radical policies to liberate women from their daily struggles;


  1. acknowledges that the commander in chief, CIC, spoke about issues directly affecting women and said that there will be no true freedom in the country until all women are free because they constitute the majority of the society;


  1. further acknowledges that a strong theme of the event was: A commitment by the EFF to work tirelessly to ensure that education opportunities are provided to young women and women do not get bypass for work they are qualified to do in favour of men and to eliminate the scourge of women abuse in our society;


  1. further notes that all these social ills can be overcome through programmes targeted at the economic emancipation of women such as giving them right to own land and farm in rural areas;


  1. we call on the House to tighten measures to force companies and government to take seriously need for radical gender transformation in their boardrooms; and


  1. further calls on the House to tighten up regulations to prevent senior politicians and public servants from abusing women as sex objects by demanding sex from women before they can be offered jobs [Interjections.] and opportunities.


Motion objected.


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I know it is Women’s Month, but is it parliamentary for that white lady over there to shout abusive to me?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order: There have been several rulings in this House on racial profiling. This is a second time that it has happened in this many weeks in this House and I will ask that you give direction on that. This is not what the Constitution envisages. She is an hon member and she should not be racially profiled.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR C T Frolick): Hon member, there have been rulings in this regard. All of us need to be aware that when we are here in the House we refer to one another as hon members. Since the member has pointed, there was no reason whatsoever, hon Paulsen, for you to use that type of language. I ask you to withdraw that remark and then I will deal with the member that you pointed.


Mr N PAULSEN: I withdraw.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR C T Frolick): Hon member, did you make any abusive remark to the hon member? I think it is hon Van der Walt. Okay, we will check the proceedings and then come back to the House with a ruling on that matter. Thank you.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, Chairperson: No other member of this House can call a Member of Parliament a liar. Hon Paulsen has just called hon Van der Walt a liar, and I will ask you to ask him to please withdraw that.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR C T Frolick): Hon Paulsen, did you call the hon member a liar? [Interjections.] Order! There is only one hon Paulsen in the House.


Mr N PAULSEN: Yes, I did and I withdraw. She is not a liar, but she is untruthful – very untruthful.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Hon member, you must withdraw unconditionally.


Mr N PAULSEN: No, no, I withdraw the word, but I say she is untruthful.




(Draft Resolution)


M R FILTANE: House Chair, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that gunfire erupted on Sunday night on 09 August in Ferguson, Oreo in the USA;


  1. the incidence was a result of a peaceful first anniversary march meant to commemorate the life of Michael Brown who was alleged to have been killed by a police officer in Ferguson a year ago;
  2. further notes that it is reported that the gunfire started during the night when a group of protesters, alleged to have blocked traffic, refused  to disperse when they were ordered to do so by police officers;


  1. acknowledges that during the conflict, a young man whose father was part of the commemoration to pay respect to his friend, Brown, was also shot dead;


  1. further acknowledges that  many protesters were arrested on Monday, 10 August when they assembled again after the Sunday conflict;


  1. further condemns violence that erupted between the police and the protesters;


  1. calls on the people of Ferguson to always promote the nonviolence doctrine of Dr Martin Luther King Junior, which he believed in, lived and strived for during the 1950s;


  1. further calls on the people of the global village to promote peace , respect, unity, security, self-determination, amongst other things so that we can have a better world to live in tomorrow; and


  1. sends condolences to the families that have lost their loved ones, in particular the family of the young man.


Motion object.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr T E MULAUDZI: House Chair, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes the passing away of a Grade 11 pupil who fell from  a moving vehicle due to the bad state of roads in townships and villages, especially during rainy season in Zebediela in Limpopo province;


  1. notes that hundreds of community members took to the streets to demand proper tarred road, clinic and end of  poor service delivery;
  2. further notes that police intervened and used rubber bullets to disperse protesters when the municipality failed to address them;


  1. condemns Lepelle-Nkumpi Local Municipality for failing to address the community for raising justified service delivery demands;


  1. calls on the municipality to provide the community with proper tarred road and a clinic immediately and resolve the service delivery protest; and


  1. calls on the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, to capacitate all municipalities to ensure service delivery as is a priority and that dignity is restored.


Motion objected.




(Draft Resolution)


Dr M J CARDO: House Chair, I move without notice:

That the House –


  1. notes the tragic passing of former Mr Gay World,  Charl van den Berg;


  1. also notes that Mr van den Berg lost his short battle to lymphatic cancer at the age of just 33 this past weekend;


  1. recalls that Mr Van Den Berg won the title of Mr Gay South Africa in 2009, before proceeding to win the Mr Gay World in Oslo in 2010;


  1. acknowledges Mr van den Berg’s true commitment to the advancement of equal human rights in Africa and around the world;


  1. further acknowledges the invaluable contribution Mr van den Berg made to the battle against HIV/Aids in many parts of the country, during and after his reign;


  1. conveys our sincere condolences to the family and friends of Mr Charl van den Berg; and


  1. also conveys our sympathies to the Mr Gay World organisation for this heart-breaking loss.


Motion objected.




(Draft Resolution)


The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: House Chair, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that the persistence lack of quality debates and infantile conduct is a growing ugly scar on the body politic of South Africa;


  1. therefore directs the presiding officers to engage with the Chief Whips of all parties to find ways to restore democratic decorum to this tribunal of the people.


Motion objected.


Mr N PAULSEN: Yes, we object to such a foolish motion.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. What is your point of order, hon Minister?


The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: The hon member can, of course, choose whatever language he wishes, but I would like him to withdraw the word foolish. I certainly did not move a foolish motion.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Who is claiming responsibility for this?


Mr N PAULSEN: Speaker, ja, dit is ek, maar ek onttrek die woorde. [Speaker, yes, it was me, but I withdraw the words.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): It has been withdrawn.




(Draft Resolution)


Mr R W CHANCE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that 20-year-old soprano and aspiring opera singer Joanie Hofmeyr, received the news of her dreams in March this year;


  1. notes that she was accepted on a scholarship to the prestigious Julliard School of Music in New York;


  1. further notes that just getting into this school is a feat in itself but as an overseas student on a scholarship is truly remarkable;


  1. recalls that Joanie started her training in music at the tender age of 7;


  1. further recalls that she was just 12 when she made it through to the finals of the National Eisteddfod;


  1. acknowledges that after the family moved to Johannesburg, Joanie was presented with her first significant singing opportunities;


  1. further acknowledges that Joanie’s resolve and passion to make her dream come true drew her to Roedean school on a full music scholarship;


  1. recognises that Joanie’s scholarship to the Julliard covers 93% of the tuition fee but she needed to raise around $30 000 to supplement the tuition and cover projected living costs etc;


  1. congratulates Joanie that through her sheer drive, concert performances and support from artists who believe that this talent needs to be nurtured, she has managed to raise the money;


  1. congratulates the efforts of St George’s Church, Parktown, and its congregation for their generosity in donating over R90 000 to Joanie’s fund raising efforts; and


  1. wishes Joanie well as she jets off to New York this weekend to begin her three year degree.


Motion objected.




There was no debate.


Question put:


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Are there any objections to the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill being read a first time?


There were objections noted to the Bill being read a first time.


Division demanded.


The House divided.


AYES - 210: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Boroto, M G; Brown, L; Buthelezi, M G; Capa, N; Capa, R N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Esterhuizen, J A; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kekana, H B; Kekana, M D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Mahumapelo, J M K; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Maluleke, B J; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapulane, M P; Masango, M S A;

Masehela, E K M; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M;

Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mnguni, P J; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C;Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Xego-Sovita, S T, Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu,L D.


NOES - 5: Maynier, D J; Lees, R A; Lotriet, A; Steenhuisen, J H; Waters, M.


Question agreed to.


Bill accordingly read a first time.




(Second Reading debate)


There was no debate.


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): As there is no list of speakers, are there any objections to the Bill being read the second time?


There were objections noted to the Bill read the second time.


Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party, United Democratic Movement and African National Congress.



Mr R A LEES (DA): Hon Chair, we requested a debate, called a division and defeated the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment Revenue Bill last week. [Interjections.] This is therefore the second first reading debate of the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment Revenue Bill. This Bill was introduced to provide increased revenue [Inaudible.] measures ... [Interjections.] ... including, inter alia, an increase in personal income tax by 1% for all taxpayers earning more than R181 900, and 80,5 cents increase in fuel levies.


All measures are aimed at raising an additional R16,8 billion in the 2015-16 financial year. This, we are told, is to ensure the sustainability of the public finances. However, the reality is that the current levels of public finances are unsustainable because of low economic growth, high public sector wage settlements, and mismanagement of state-owned enterprises. 


The Minister of Finance, hon Nhlanhla Nene, in his February 2015 Budget Speech, warned against a public sector wage settlement above inflation but the national executive doesn’t seem to take the Finance Minister seriously anymore ... [Interjections.] ... and will reportedly provide the average state employee with an increase of 11,5%, an additional cost of R65,6 billion.


Awu! bakwethu!  Bangasikhohlisi ukuthi bangaqhubeka bayithathe le mali kulaba abasebenzayo, ... [Ubuwelewele.] ... kodwa siyazi thina ukuthi akwazeki ukuthi kuqhutshekwe kanjalo. Siyazi ukuthi kudingeka ukuthi uhulumeni wenu enze ukuthi imali ingamoswa. [Ubuwelewele.] Nithatha laba abantshontsha imali yethu. Kufuneka ukuthi ubabophe futhi ubafake ejele. [Ubuwelewele.] Akusizi lutho ukuthi uqhubeke uthathe imali ekhukhwini kulabo abasebenzayo. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Geez! Good people! They should not deceive us that they can continue taking this money from those who are working, ... [Interjections.] ... but we know that it cannot continue in that way. We know that your government must ensure that money is not wasted. [Interjections.] You take these ones who are stealing our money. You must arrest them and put them in jail. [Interjections.] It does not help to continue taking money from the pockets of those who are working. [Interjections.]]


President Zuma can talk about 2% economic growth for this year but the data suggests a lower level of growth. For yet another year, there will be thousands of young people who will not be able to find jobs. [Time expired.] That is why the DA cannot support this Bill. [Interjections.]  Thank you Mr Chairman. [Applause.]


Mr N SINGH (IFP): Chairperson, the IFP will support this Bill. [Applause.] We have no problem with the increase in revenue. I mean, 1% tax increase in revenue will bring in billions to the fiscus. However, I think it is appropriate for us to indicate that the money must be spent wisely and within the prescripts of the Public Finance Management Act. [Applause.]


The development imperatives that still need to be met for the majority of people of South Africa is still on the agenda of this government. Democracy would not be complete if all our people in this country do not benefit from it: That is to the provision of basic services, water, sanitation, etc.


Poverty needs to be something that is eradicated or reduced. It is for that reason that we have no problem in principle for an increase in revenue through taxation. We will support this Bill. Thank you.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM (NFP): Hon Chairperson, the NFP supports this Bill. [Applause.] There is no denying that an efficient and progressive tax system is a cornerstone of South Africa’s democracy, supporting the values of social solidarity reflected in the Constitution. Tax revenues enable government to redistribute wealth, supply public services and increase domestic investment.


In light of the serious challenges that we face today, due to the apartheid regime and the challenges that our communities have experiences, the demands in South Africa as a whole in terms of water, sanitation, electricity and housing is enormous. Therefore an increase in the taxpayers is warranted. For that reason the NFP will support this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, ...


... siyayixhasa; ningayimoshi le mali emva kokuba siyonyusile. [... we support it; do not waste this money after we have increased it.]


Thank you very much!


Mr Y I CARRIM (ANC): Chairperson, by all accounts, there were over 200 members here last week at the time we were going to vote on this Bill but obviously the DA and the EFF walked out in large numbers. It is not really a victory. [Interjections.] I mean, it is childish antics on an important Bill like this. [Interjections.] What does it show regarding how serious they are about their participation as an opposition in this Parliament?


So gleeful is Alf Lees, and David Maynier, like he discovered a new toy. When he came to his first meeting in our committee, he kept saying, “Ahaa, we defeated your Bill! Ahaa, we defeated your Bill! Hahahahaha, we defeated your Bill!” [Laughter.] [Applause.] But, that is what he was doing. I mean, if his members in a parliamentary caucus saw him, they would be embarrassed, let alone the constituents out there.


What happened today? Obviously – in fact, mind you, if you look at last week, for the ANC to have mastered a number about 180 people –you must remember we have an executive of some 60 people - is remarkable actually! So, that defeat is childish; it is really inane! You can put it on your curriculum vitae, CV, David Maynier, your contribution to South Africa is that you prevented a Bill from being voted by a week. [Laughter.] Hey, congratulations! [Laughter.] [Applause.]


I want to agree with Mr Narend Singh that the 1% increase overall is also quite progressive in the sense that it has a ceiling beyond which you do not actually get attacked. So, if you come below a certain ceiling, you will not be attacked.  It is fairly progressive but it is part of an overall.


Both the new members of the DA who are serving in the committee now will not know but it is part of the Davies Tax Committee Review of the taxes. So, you can’t locate the decisions about the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment Revenue Bill now outside of that context because you were not part of the meeting. You will not know the overall strategy that the government is evolving over time.


On the issue of the public sector wage bill, it is part of the negotiation at the labour relations process. I would imagine that because there has been a settlement that the civil service – the public service – is now more poised to deliver, we as Parliament, not just the executive, must hold into account. On that we agree but if people get an increase, they have to be more productive. That is the responsibility of this committee, the Committee on Public Service, and other committees - in fact, all committees in Parliament that oversee the executive.


I will end on that note, except to remind the DA that they are saying nothing new that the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment Revenue Bill, like in those parliaments of the world and such equivalent Bills are not subject review because many obvious decisions have already been effected on 1 March this year. So, even in the most established democracies, there is very little room to change it. However, with the current two Bills before us – the tax Bills that are before us - we are prepared to engage with them.


Then of course, we will have very little of substance from them, except the final outcome would be that we will have to ensure that we have our numbers here so that what happened last week doesn’t happen again. Of course, the ANC supports this Bill. [Time expired.] Whether you like it or not, you have already withdrew your taxes before one endorsed this Bill. You are effective the Bill whether you like it or not. [Applause.]


Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, can I ask a question, please?


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Shenge!


Prince M G BUTHELEZI: I wanted to ask a question from the hon member who is very important. He used a word, saying, “Childish.” Did he mean pure like this? [Laughter.] [Applause.]


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I think you can engage him outside. [Interjections.]


Hon members, let me put the motion again: That the Bill be read a second time. Are there any objections?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Would you kindly note the DA’s objection. I must say: How nice it is to see all those ANC members in the House that we never see.


Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Debate Concluded.


The House adjourned at 17:57.









National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.       Calling of Joint Sitting




The Speaker of the National Assembly, Ms B Mbete, and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Ms T R Modise, in terms of Joint Rule 7(2), have called a joint sitting of the Houses of Parliament for Tuesday, 11 August 2015 at 14:00 to conduct a debate in celebration of National Women’s Day under the theme: Women united in moving South Africa forward.



B MBETE, MP                                                                                      T R MODISE, MP

SPEAKER OF THE NATIONAL                                                              CHAIRPERSON OF THE

ASSEMBLY                                                                                          NATIONAL COUNCIL OF






National Assembly

Please see pages 3034-3045 of the ATCs.






National Assembly


The Speaker


1.      Expiry of term of office of Icasa chairperson


  1. A letter dated 30 May 2015 was received from the Minister of Communications on 31 July 2015 –


  1. informing the Assembly that the term of office of Dr S Mncube, chairperson of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (Icasa), expired on 30 June 2015; and


  1. requesting the Assembly to commence with the process of filling the vacancy in terms of section 5 of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Act, 2000 (Act No 13 of 2000).

Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications for consideration and report.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


  1. The Speaker and the Chairperson


  1. Report of the Commission for Gender Equality on the Second MenEngage Global Symposium in New Delhi, India, 10 to 13 November 2014.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


Please see pages 3047-3049 of the ATCs.


National Assembly


Please see pages 3049-3055 of the ATCs.


Please see pages 3055-3062 of the ATCs.





National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.      Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)


  1. The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:


  1. Refugees Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 75).




National Assembly


Please see pages 3068-3089 of the ATCs.



No related


No related documents