Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 10 Jun 2015

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

WEDNESDAY, 10 JUNE 2015

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 15:03.

 

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

 

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

 

Measures to ensure prioritising and fast-tracking of Adult Education and Training

 

9.         Mrs Y N Phosa (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

 

As Chairperson of the Human Resource Development Council of South Africa, what measures are in place to ensure that Adult Education and Training is (a) prioritised and (b) fast-tracked for people who are currently employed in the formal and informal sectors and who have never had the opportunity of an education?                                                                 NO2387E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, as hon members will know education is critical if we are to build a fair, equitable and prosperous South Africa. Adult education is an important component of that education process.

 

Since 1994 adult education has been pursued through a variety of methods: through courses at higher education institutions; workplace training in the private sector; and life-long learning or continuing education programmes. Many people have used adult education to gain knowledge; to acquire skills; and to increase literacy and numeracy. I am informed by the Minister of Higher Education and Training that there are 260 000 people in public centres and 1 823 in private centres who are accessing adult education in South Africa.

 

Community colleges were instituted by Cabinet in 2013. Minister Nzimande has indicated that this type of new colleges will cater for everyone who attended school but did not have an opportunity to complete their education process and those who were unable to attend school, as well as affording opportunities to those who do not qualify for admission to Technical Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges and universities.

 

The community colleges are going to prepare students, with many of these students already adults, for the labour market and for self-employment. They will, in the main, offer the General Education and Training Certificate as well as the National Senior Certificate for adults.

 

It is estimated that 3,3 million people who are not in employment, education or training will benefit from these community colleges. These will incorporate the existing public adult learning centres and represent a third tier of institutions alongside our universities and Tvet colleges.

 

As we speak now, nine community college administrative centres have been established. They were established as of 1 April 2015. They were established in each of our nine provinces. These centres are facilitating the mergers of existing public adult learning centres into community colleges. Following the merger, pilot community colleges will be established in 2016. Thereafter, the colleges will be progressively rolled out throughout the country.

The Department of Higher Education and Training is available to elaborate on the specific measures that they are putting in place to help workers in the informal and formal sectors to acquire basic education and technical skills required.

 

I may also say that we have found that in a number of private-sector entities – companies that is – quite a lot of training of adult workers is ongoing, and this is to be commended. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Ms Y N PHOSA: Thank you hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, thank you for your comprehensive response to my question. My follow up question is where is the responsibility for adult education and training located within government? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, clearly the Department of Higher Education and Training has a great responsibility for this. As I have indicated, we have found that the private sector and particularly public-owned companies are playing a key role in rolling out training processes for adult workers in their workplaces. So, the Department of Higher Education and Training clearly plays a critical role in this and that is where it is located as they are also rolling out these various community colleges. Thank you.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, the majority of employers and companies, some of which you hon Deputy President own or owned, as well as including the government that you serve in, employ many people who want to go and study, and who want to improve their studies. The improvement of those qualifications is important for promotion within these companies and government, yet both government and these companies refuse to pay their wages for study leave.

 

If we want to improve adult education, shouldn’t we be implementing a law that forces companies and the government to pay people, even if they are on study leave the whole time, including when they go to Harvard for the whole year? Government must pay so that they are sustained there ... and their jobs ... [Interjections.] ... because they can’t afford to lose their salaries as firstly, education is expensive; and secondly, the reality is that their very promotion depends on them getting qualified.

 

Anyway, the country, including Parliament, will benefit from people who are much better qualified with a population that is much better educated and which doesn’t lie about its qualifications.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There could well be merit in what hon Ndlozi says. What I do know is that there are quite a number of companies that tailor make courses that some of their employees should embark upon and those are often job specific. Whilst they are going through that training they are often paid.

 

What he is saying is that if employees choose to do whatever course that may sometimes not even be relevant to the type of work they are doing, they should be paid. Even if it’s for a year or two at Harvard, that should be paid for. That is clearly a matter that needs to be properly and thoroughly discussed and debated. However, what is important is that what we should be doing is to encourage companies to assist their workers to embark on training processes, courses and so forth, and to some extent take ownership of part of the payment. Some companies actually say, you pay 50% and I will pay 50%. So, that is a process that is underway in a number of entities and companies, and hon Ndlozi, we are still to see the extent to which this can develop further.

 

What I do admire about your proposal is that what we do need to be doing is to improve the skills acquisition of all our people and all workers who are in employment. That is why I say there is merit to the proposal that you are making. We need to look at the efficacy of funding training processes that may not necessarily be relevant to the type of work that each worker is doing. So, I think he has something good going there and we need to look into it.

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.] ... my name is A M Shaik Emam, thank you. Hon Deputy President, the quality of education given to Adult Basic Education and Training, Abet, learners is dependant on the quality of educators. Could you perhaps tell us what programme is in place to ensure that all educators in the Abet field are paid adequately and with all the necessary benefits, in order for them to enjoy the duties that they are performing so that they can do it adequately?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The process of improving the education skills of those who deliver education at the Abet level is underway. In fact, thousands and thousands of people are currently being trained and prepared to participate in this form of training, and obviously the issue of paying them becomes a critical one. I know that more than 20 000 people were recently trained in that area. Their pay has not been at the level of teachers; it has been more like a stipend but clearly it’s something that has been raised and is being looked at. I do know that the Department of Higher Education and Training is looking precisely at this.

 

However, the critical issue here is that the improvement of the skills base of those who deliver education, particularly in the Kha Ri Gude programme, is being upscaled. We should in time see more and more adult education teachers – those who delver that type of education – becoming more proficient in delivering adult education. So, it’s something that is being looked at. Thank you.

 

Ms B BOZZOLI: Mr Deputy President, thank you very much for reminding us that the Department of Higher Education and Training has a plan to extend and consolidate adult education and training. May we have your assurance that unlike all the other exciting initiatives in the Department of Higher Education and Training, eg the expansion of universities and Tvet colleges in particular, this initiative will be properly funded and not left like the others in a situation where thousands of students enrol but the colleges or universities are not able to properly teach or house them?

 

Given that you understand this problem, as you chair the commission on the funding of universities which found that they are grossly underfunded, what will you personally do to assist this situation, given that the Minister has been unable to secure the funding required?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Before I became a Member of Parliament the Minister of Higher Education and Training asked me to chair this committee looking into the funding of institutions of higher learning, and indeed we found that quite of number of institutions, particularly the previously disadvantaged institutions, were not properly and adequately funded. Proposals with regard to how they should be properly funded have been made.

 

This is a matter which the Minister has taken quite seriously, and in fact, having initiated the establishment of this committee without even knowing what the committee would recommend, he has absorbed and taken on board the proposals that have come through. I think the proposals are not only sitting on his desk but are being processed with a view of getting sufficient funding from the Minister of Finance.

 

So, there is quite a high level of seriousness in the Department of Higher Education and Training with regard to funding education, not only at Tvet colleges and universities but also with regard to adult education. So there is a huge drive. To the extent that I am involved in the Human Resource Development Council, HRDC, committee, we are looking precisely at this matter and want to get more funding so that we can ensure that many of our people, both adult and young people, do get adequate training. Thank you very much.

 

The SPEAKER: We now come to Question 10, which has been asked by the hon The Leader of the Opposition. I have been informed that the hon De Freitas will take charge of the supplementary question on behalf of the hon The Leader of the Opposition. The hon the Deputy President?

 

Financial viability of new e-toll dispensation

 

10.       The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the Deputy President:

 

Has he found that the new dispensation of the e-toll system will be financially viable both for the SA National Roads Agency Limited to continue operating the system and for ordinary South Africans who have to pay for the system?            NO2394E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the new e-toll dispensation seeks to achieve a balance between the need to finance the construction and maintenance of the freeway system that will serve Gauteng now and into the future, on the one hand, and on the other, to minimise the financial impact on ordinary South Africans, particularly those from low- to medium-income households, who use the Gauteng freeways.

 

The new dispensation, itself, aims to be fair, affordable and sustainable. The dispensation draws on the findings of the advisory panel that was appointed by the Gauteng Premier in July last year. It was meant to conduct a comprehensive impact assessment of e-tolls in the province. The panel’s findings were based on a thorough consultation process with various stakeholders. This took place through public meetings, research, round-table discussions and focused consultation with various entities and organisations. They also consulted with experts on transport, the economy and the environment.

 

The panel found that the implementation of the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project has benefited the economy and the people of Gauteng, through a better-quality road system, reduced travelling time system for those who used to spend a lot of time on the roads, improved fuel efficiency, reduced vehicle-operating costs and improved logistics efficiencies. [Interjections] Now, these were the benefits that the independent panel of experts found had been the great benefits.

 

However, it also found that, in its current form, the e-toll system places what it regarded as a disproportionate burden on low- and medium-income households. It also found that the new dispensation dramatically reduces the costs to all motorists travelling on Gauteng’s freeways. It does away with costs of people who use them infrequently. It does not penalise people who do not have e-tags, and it provides extremely favourable terms for people who are currently in arrears. That is the new dispensation that was announced. [Interjections.]

 

One of the principles of the new dispensation is to safeguard the integrity of the fiscus, in particular, the SA National Roads Agency Ltd, Sanral, which has the responsibility and a mandate to improve and build our roads system. The new dispensation also supports this principle by ensuring that Sanral’s revenue expectations are maintained through the hybrid model, which was announced, and that it is sustained by the continuation of what the panel also accepted, which is the user-pays principle.

 

For Gauteng residents, the new, improved roads provide significant economic and social benefit and the tariff is equitable in terms of the benefit. The new dispensation also ensures that future road upgrades and expansions are possible because this is but one phase. More phases are meant to follow in the wake of what has been done now. Additionally, this principle alleviates the burden on the state, and it can therefore fund the backlog on maintenance of existing roads from the national Budget. [Interjections.]

 

In short, as journalist, Lucas Ledwaba wrote in the Sowetan yesterday, there comes a time in the history of a country when a government must take difficult decisions; and sometimes it also needs to take unpopular decisions and act in the best interests of the country and its citizens. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

This is exactly what has been done. The responsibility of the government is to make sure that it acts in the interests of all people, and it governs. Wherever governments operate in the world, at times they do take unpopular decisions with a view to advancing the interests of the many – and this is precisely what has had to happen. The pleasing thing with this one though, is that there has been thorough consultation throughout, with a consultation process that was also engineered and led by an independent panel of experts, appointed by the Gauteng government. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Speaker, Mr Deputy President, with payment recovery costs rising and actual payments received falling, it’s clear that the state and the province will have to step in to meet the shortfall caused by Gauteng motorists’ noncompliance with the toll system. As it stands, e-tolls and load shedding are killing jobs in Gauteng, and now, even more resources will be diverted from service delivery to prop up this unfair system that burdens economic growth.

 

Do you believe that e-tolls are still the best solution for funding our freeway system, where it’s clear that citizens do not want them, and, by your own admission, is an unpopular decision?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, let us be clear. Road tolling did not start with the Gauteng freeway road improvement. We have had road tolling in South Africa for many years. A number of our roads are tolled. You just need to get into your car and travel from Johannesburg to Durban, and you will go through no fewer than seven or eight tollgates. So, tolling is the normal method that many countries around the world use to earn revenue so that they can improve the roads. [Interjections.]

 

Now, with regard to this one, the adverse impact that this freeway road tolling has had on lower income groups has been reduced, to a large extent. In the main, most of the lower-income group people travel in buses, trains and taxis, and all of those have been exempted. We must accept that the reduction has been to the benefit, largely, of those people.

 

As we speak now, the tolling system is receiving thousands of calls from ordinary notaries, who are saying they want to know how to access the benefits announced. [Interjections.] Thousands of them are doing so. The revenue that has been received just in the past month has started ticking up. [Interjections.] We are certain that, rather than total rejection of this system, we are beginning to see people having a deeper and better understanding of what the government has decided on.

 

Of course, tolling is always a difficult one because it means that there is an additional tax that is being levied on people, but in this case, it is a tax that people have to pay, realising what the benefit is. [Interjections.] The benefit, as the panel found out, has been great on the economy of Gauteng, has reduced travelling time ...

 

HON MEMBERS: How? How?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... and has made people travel a lot better, reducing their own vehicle costs.

 

So, that is what government has decided needs to be done, and we are moving forward. It is being implemented. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, hon Deputy President, if you are so confident about your panel’s work, why don’t you hold a referendum? If you hold a referendum, you will find out what we found out from members of the community in Orange Farm and Stretford. We found a plumber who was complaining bitterly about the R255,00 he has to pay to travel around Johannesburg doing his work.

 

Now, here are our questions, because we believe the commodification and privatisation of our roads is the most evil thing that people with capitalist mannerisms, like you, have imposed on our people. [Interjections.] Exactly how much does Sanral owe? When is it expected to pay this debt, and is it true that you are importing this road tolling you did in Johannesburg to the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I would say to the hon Ndlozi that the issue of a referendum has not even been one that has been considered. [Interjections.] In addition, it is out of the question, anyway. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Why?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When the Gauteng government decided on establishing a panel – and it is the Gauteng government’s panel – they were responding to the needs and concerns of ordinary people. They felt that we needed to look at the economic impact, and that was the over-riding reason they did so. In doing so, the panel found that the e-toll system had been of great benefit in terms of the building of the roads. It has improved the economy of Gauteng and it has brought all those other benefits that I spoke about.

 

Now, I don’t believe that the roads have been privatised. The SA National Roads Agency Ltd is a wholly state-owned enterprise or company that has been given the task, as an agency, of improving and building our roads. In the main, they are doing a fantastic job and we are rolling out roads throughout the country.

 

Now, you ask a question of whether the same will occur in KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape. I have not looked at the internal plans of Sanral. What I do know is that Sanral needs to raise funding. It raises funding through bonds on international markets and the local market. In doing so, they are raising these funds to improve our roads, and if we accept that the user-pays principle should apply, our ordinary people are not opposed to the user-pay principle. [Interjections.] They say that we are prepared to pay, and in this case, they said that the tariff that had been set was far too high. That is what the panel found.

 

When the panel went through the whole process, the government responded, and it responded very positively. It said we have heeded the calls of our people and we are going to reduce the tariff. In the end, the national fiscus and the Gauteng fiscus will have to close the gap, because there is going to be a gap. The hybrid model we’ve come up with, where the national fiscus and Gauteng and the users pay, is a wonderful model. All three key stakeholders come to the party to pay for our roads.

I think we should accept that we are going to continue improving our roads. These roads have to be paid for. Somehow, all of us are responsible for paying for these roads. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

An HON MEMBER: We pay tax for the roads already!

 

An HON MEMBER: And the fuel levy!

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, Deputy President, I must say, from the beginning, that the ACDP agrees with the user-pays principle even though we do not agree with the e-toll system.

 

An HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: We maintain that a fuel levy would have been a better option to pay for Gauteng freeway upgrades, for a number of reasons that I do not have time to disclose.

 

The e-toll billing system has had too many flaws that have resulted in motorists being incorrectly billed. Some people who do not even own a vehicle or a driver’s licence have also received SMSs from Sanral, demanding payment. That is why they feel some reluctance to register.

My question is: Does government have an option to prepay over the counter for those motorists who do not want to have an e-toll account or disclose their bank account details, in the same way that cellphone holders can buy airtime without having an account with a service provider? If so, would such motorists be charged the same tariff as those who have e-toll tariff accounts; and if not, why not?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, people often talk about using the fuel levy. The fuel levy is a general tax levied on everyone who purchases fuel. It is a general tax that is levied on buses, taxis, and everyone. In the end, if you were to use the fuel levy for the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, you would not be able to exempt those who travel on buses and in taxis, and those tend to be the poor people. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

Now, through this system, the way it was crafted – and by the way, it’s not like the other side has a monopoly of wisdom and knowledge – the issue of a fuel levy was considered. [Interjections.] It was considered more thoroughly than you have even thought about. We considered so thoroughly that we realised that it would discriminate against the poor and lower income families, because if you use the fuel levy, you are going to have the bus drivers and the bus and taxi owners up their tariffs. [Interjections.] With this, buses are exempted and taxis are exempted. In other words, those poor people are exempted from paying for the e-tolls. [Applause.] So, you can eat your heart out – they are exempted. [Interjections.]

 

Coming back to the point that the Rev Meshoe raises, it is a very important point, for those who want to listen to the hon good reverend, they should listen. [Interjections.] The hon member Meshoe is asking about prepaying, for those who may not want to pay through e-tags, through their credit cards, or whatever.

 

Yes, there would be such a facility. In the full body of the payment methods, which we are encouraging people to opt for, we are saying go and update your records.

 

An HON MEMBER: We are not paying!

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Go and update your records at the Sanral offices, at the vehicle registration office, go to the Post Office or retail stores and update your records. When you do, you will then be able to indicate what payment method suits you best.

 

What has not been fully considered, hon Meshoe, is whether you get a discount if you prepay. That is certainly a wonderful idea which can be given consideration to, and I thank the Rev Meshoe for coming up with that. Thank you very much.

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Speaker, hon Deputy President, from the very outset, you said the panel found that there is going to be a burden on the low-income household earners. I did not hear the recommendation, however, as to what it is that can be done to ameliorate or obviate such burdens. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, yes, indeed, it is true that the panel found that the e-toll system as then configured did impose a disproportionate burden on the low-income earners or households. It is precisely this that the government has responded to. The government has heeded that. It has heeded the concerns that were being raised.

 

At the time, the cap was R450,00. What did the government do? It said we would reduce it to R225,00, absorb part of the burden and ask the Gauteng government to absorb part of the burden. In that way, we could have a tripartite approach to this, where the user pays for a portion, where the central government pays for another portion and, indeed, where the Gauteng government also pays.

 

So, in this process and new dispensation, it is a dispensation that is a hybrid that invites all the key stakeholders to come to the party and pay something. That was heeded with the new dispensation that was announced.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, may I please address you before the next question is answered?

 

The SPEAKER: If you want to raise a supplementary matter, can you wait until he answers? Then you can raise the matter in the process of the supplementary questions.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, I promise you, hon Speaker, it is not a supplementary matter.

 

The SPEAKER: What is it?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: It’s an explanation on the basis of Rule 69, because the hon Deputy President did not answer how much we owed. We asked that question and he did not answer. How much does Sanral owe ...

The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... and when is it going to be paid?

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, the Deputy President might not have given you the answer you wanted, but he has answered. [Interjections.] He has been answering. So, please take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat. [Interjections.]

 

The hon Kekana has asked this question, Question 11.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, Speaker, Speaker, actually I saw now that the Deputy President admits that he did not answer the question about how much Sanral owes and when that money is going to be paid and completed.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It’s not that. He never answered at all.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, that is not the issue. I mean, it’s not dependent on the Deputy President agreeing with the question asked by the hon Ndlozi.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But what’s the purpose of this question session ... [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat and let’s proceed with the question.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But what is the purpose of a question session if your asked questions are not being responded to and then you just steamroll and go forward? [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, in fact, you will have access to the Deputy President after this question session ... [Interjections.] ... and you can ask him all manner of questions.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, we don’t want to question him there. We want him to answer questions here!

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Why can’t he tell us? [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You know, there’s a culture of unaccountability ... [Interjections.] ... It’s very wrong.

 

The SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Please take your seat. [Interjections.]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Ndlozi and hon Shivambu are taking a chance. Rule 69 has nothing to do with what they are talking about. [Interjections.] They are taking a big chance. In fact, they expect you not to look at the Rule. They are abusing the Deputy President now. [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: I would like to call upon ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker ...

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon, would you please allow me to proceed with the question session?

 

Ms H O MAXON: I just want to say something, Speaker. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: We can explain! We can explain how Rule 69 applies!

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon, I really would like us to proceed with the question session. [Interjections.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Yes, I would also like to continue ...

 

The SPEAKER: Without interruptions that are really unfair.

 

An HON MEMBER: We can explain!

 

Ms H O MAXON: Speaker, just allow me. Perhaps I can assist this House. [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: I should allow you to do what, hon Maxon?

 

Ms H O MAXON: Just to say what I want to say, because you are pre-empting what I am going to say. [Interjections.] I just want to clarify that, in terms of Rule 69 that the Chief Whip of the Majority Party is disputing, perhaps I can just simplify matters by reading what the Rule says ... [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: No, hon Maxon.

Ms H O MAXON: ... because, Speaker, what you are doing ... we should stick to the Rules. You are quoting the Rules, and it is here.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: So, we fail to understand why the Chief Whip of the Majority Party is distorting everything.

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Maxon, please allow us to proceed with the question session. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy President?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Without seeking to undermine your ruling on this matter, I am able to tell the hon Ndlozi that Sanral owes something like R20 billion ... [Interjections.] ... and the money has been raised through a variety of bonds that have certain timeframes. [Interjections.] Some have five years, 10 years, 15 years – and accumulation of all that amounts to R20 billion over a set period, possibly going up to 15 or 20 years. [Interjections.] So, those are the bond timeframes.

 

Measures to ensure HEAIDS programme extends to rural TVET colleges and surrounding communities

 

11.       Mr C D Kekana (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

 

What measures does the SA National Aids Council intend to implement to ensure that the Higher Education HIV/AIDS Programme (HEAIDS) (a) reaches out to rural and/or village campuses of technical and vocational education and training (TVET) colleges and (b) integrates communities around those campuses?                                                                                                                        NO2388E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, without seeking to undermine your ruling on this matter, I am able to tell hon Ndlozi that the SA National Road Agency Limited ,Sanral, owes something like R20 billion. The money has been raised through a variety of bonds that has certain timeframes. Some has five years, 10 years and 15 years, and the accumulation of all that is R20 billion over a set period and is possibly going up to 15-20 years. So, those are the bond timeframes.

 

Coming to the next question, since the formal announcement of the expansion of the Higher Education and Training HIV and Aids programme to the Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges on December 2013, significant progress has been made. The Higher Education Aids Programme has been launched in most campuses in the TVET colleges across all our nine provinces. The programme aims to capacitate 20 000 peer educators every year on issue such as HIV, TB, gender-based violence and teenage pregnancy.

 

It is envisaged that peer educators from colleges in rural communities will disseminate this knowledge amongst members and structures within affected communities. This programme was established in response to a concern by the SA National Aids Council and the Department of Higher Education and Training that TVET colleges were ill-equipped to respond to the HIV/Aids and TB challenge that our country faces.

 

As part of the programme, a study has recently been conducted on HIV/Aids knowledge, attitude and behaviour in the TVET sector. This study has identified a number of gaps with regard to HIV and Aids awareness and we were further informed of the kinds of interventions that are needed.

 

The SA National Aids Council has supported this programme by raising funds from the Global Fund. As the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, is responsible for ensuring all departments implement their programmes as part of the national strategic plan for HIV/TB and sexually transmitted diseases, the Higher Education Aids Programme will be monitored to ensure that it reaches rural village campuses, especially in areas that are most affected by HIV. The SA National Aids Council, Sanac, will also work with local Aids councils to ensure that TVET programmes are integrated with their communities. I must add that the local Aids councils that operate at provincial, districts and local level have proven to be the most effective methods in which we can spread Aids awareness, particularly as they work well in provinces such as KwaZulu-Natal through the Sukuma Sakhe campaign that has been successfully launched and working extremely well. We have adopted that at Sanac as a model that we want to spread throughout the country.

 

Yesterday, at the SA Aids conference, we applauded the work that it is also being done not only by Sukuma Sakhe campaign, but also through the Zazi campaign where young women are encouraged to participate in the Aids campaign to reduce further infections. A lot of work is underway in this regard. I think we are going to start seeing a lot of progress in this regard. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr C D KEKANA: Hon Speaker, my follow up question to the hon Deputy President is on the preventative measures. Modern medicine prioritises the approach of using preventative rather than curative methods. In other words, don’t wait until people are sick and spend resources curing them whereas you can prevent people from getting sick. What preventative measures are we going to effect on this Aids programme to ensure that we are using the preventative method rather than the curative method? Thanks.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The SA National Aids Council, Sanac, is focussing its campaign, particularly its national strategic plan, on the whole question of prevention - prevention in the form of making sure that people get tested and that they know their status. And if they are found to be positive, they must immediately be subjected to a whole health programme that would end up with them being on treatment. We are focussing more attention on prevention and raising awareness. This is going to be the main area of focus by Sanac as it operates through its various structures throughout the country.

 

We have done well in the past in this regard, we were able to test up to 20 million South Africans and we are hoping, as time moves on, that we will even be testing more. As we speak now, many more people are getting tested. We have already done almost nine million and we are hoping that with time we will be able to test many more people.

 

It is through raising the levels of awareness also to amongst the group that is more at risk, the young people, particularly in universities, TVET colleges and indeed the youth that are very vulnerable. We are going to be embarking on a huge campaign of raising awareness.

 

Unfortunately in this regard, we’ve a lot of partners in this campaign and we will be mobilising not only with those partners that are known, but also with other partners. This is where we call upon everyone. Everyone who seats in this Parliament is a leader. As a leader take on to yourself the responsibility to spread the message that we should raise the awareness of HIV much higher than what it is at the moment. If we do that, we will see the incidence of infection coming down, thus even reducing the burden on the fiscus to continue funding health care, particularly antiretroviral medicines. Thank you very much.

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, I think the matter of HIV/Aids which is quite an emotional matter and a matter we have known about for more than 35 years, has actually shown that probably we might have started working the tail of the dog instead of the dog working the tail. The issue here is that, when we talk about safer sex or the issues around prevention with safer sex, we are talking in terms of young people or people that are already sexual active. My question is around those who are not sexually active, those who would like to keep not sexually active as long as possible. What is this organisation doing to ensure that we actually keep our young people free from HIV by choice, and not because they have been infected because they were sexually active? That is quiet important.

 

Secondly, in Uganda many years back they controlled HIV infections without even the use of condoms. That is why I am going to the safe sex methods which I would like the Deputy President to actually address. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The issue of keeping those who are not infected to remain uninfected is a critical one and it is part of the campaign that we are going to be embarking on. It is very critical and important, therefore, that we embark on raising the level of awareness of all our people. They should get to a point of knowing their status and once confirmed that you are not infected, we want people to remain uninfected. A variety of methods that should be utilised clearly is abstention. Young people in particular, abstain as long as possible.

 

Yes, in Uganda they utilised that type of messaging where they were able to mobilise many people to abstain. Therefore, that has been proven to be a great method of preventing infection. We are also going to be doing so, particularly when it comes to young people. It is a fact that young people in our country do participate in sexual relations at a fairly young age. We find that the incidences of infection begins to tick up at that age, particularly among young girls who, because of either their environmental or economic situations, find themselves more susceptible to have relations with older men. That is where the incidence is increasing. We want to reach those young women.

 

The Zazi campaign I spoke about, which has proven to be so effective in KwaZulu-Natal, speaks and addresses itself precisely to this challenge. How do we get young people to abstain? Those who are participating in the Zazi campaign are finding that it is both meaningful and impactful because it is fairly comprehensive and does not only focus on sexuality, but also on broader issues as well.

 

Our real challenge is to make sure that over the next few years, particularly leading up to 2030, we should have reduced the level of infections and make sure that those young people who would be adults in 2030, have lived through their young teenage and adult years without being infected. Reducing infection is part of our focus in the Sanac. We are going to be embarking on a huge campaign and this is where I once again repeat the call on all of us to participate in the campaign to reduce infection and raise the level of awareness. Thank you.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, just one question from me. What are the practical measures that the government is undertaking to enforce higher education to continue with extensive research, not on the containment of the virus, but on the actual cure itself? HIV is an African problem and mostly, a South African problem. [Interjections.] South African universities must take a leading role on researching for the cure of the problem and ensure that they also integrate with communities because there are many people including traditional healers who claim that they have breakthroughs on the question of the cure of HIV. [Interjections.] I want to find out from the current government what measures are in place to enforce research on the actual cure in line with your own admission that HIV is a huge burden on the fiscus of the country? I thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: HIV is a global problem. I think that needs to be said. [Applause.] Those who believe that HIV is an African problem are misinformed. It is a global problem. There are many countries around the world that are facing this challenge. If you recall in history in terms of our knowledge, it first surfaced in the United States of America – it surfaced in the great United States of America. It has gripped many countries around the world. We may well have the highest burden of many countries in the world, but our response in terms of addressing this challenge is being applauded by the World Health Organisation and the UN as being the most effective. Therefore, we are doing a lot more than it appears maybe from your sight, but we are working on it.

 

Is there anything that is being done on research? Yes, not one and not two things, but a platfora of research initiatives are currently underway here in South Africa. Soon there will be announcements that will show and prove that we are getting to grips with the research components. Many of our scientists, doctors and researchers are at work day and night to find the vaccines and cure. But we are doing quite a lot of work. Some of these universities are working so hard.

 

The Minister of Science and Technology, if you want to know, could shed even more knowledge on this at an appropriate time. Through her Ministry, she has line of site of number of initiatives that are currently underway including at the indigenous medicine level. A lot is being done. So, we are not seating on our laurels. As a country, we are actively participating.

 

In addition, we are also in partnership with many other scientists and researchers around the world from a number of countries. But they also come here to draw inspiration and strength from what we are doing. So, a lot is being done. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Dr H R VOLMINK: Hon Speaker, In September last year, our colleague, the hon Wilmot James asked the hon Deputy President, what Sanac and how the departments’ plans were with regard to addressing the fact that 46%, that is almost half of the pregnant women  in the Gert Sibande Municipality in Mpumalanga, are HIV positive. This is not the highest rate in the country.

 

In his reply as recorded in the Hansard, the Deputy President stated that he would engage with the Minister on the situation in Gert Sibande Municipality and submit a report to this House on the steps implemented to address this problem.

 

Reaching out to the Gert Sibande TVET College located in the municipalities’ area would help with the crises, but can he now give us an update specifically. Has he produced the report for this House as promised, and what concrete action has actually been undertaken to address this crisis?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Following the answers that I gave, I did go to Gert Sibande Municipality. In fact, Sanac, held its plenary session there. We were able not only to interact with people in the community, but also with other key stakeholders including companies in the area. That finally led to one of the companies agreeing to revamp the clinic where many of these women go for treatment and for testing. It is now being built and it’s underway.

 

A report is not ready at the moment - it is work in progress. It is something that I have also chosen to focus on because we found that it is in Mpumalanga and particularly Gert Sibande where the incidence has been higher than it is in any other part the country. I can say that the report will be forthcoming in that regard and we are focused on the matter. The Minister of Health has made it an area of particular focus. It will be forthcoming. Thank you very much. [Applause]

 

Steps taken to change the situation regarding the contribution of parastatals to economic growth

12.       Mr L R Mbinda (PAC) asked the Deputy President:

 

In view of the lessons from fast-growing economies like China, where parastatals have played the major role in economic growth, while in South Africa it seems that parastatals are not adding value to economic growth, (a) what steps has he taken with regard to the South African Airways, Eskom and the SA Post Office to change the situation, particularly because it is mainly caused by poor appointments of the Board including executive directors and (b) does he intend to change the Government’s approach of deploying political cadres in strategic positions while they are not competent?                                                                                           NO2392E

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are an important part of our economy and remain essential to advancing government’s industrialisation programme and also broader development objectives. That has to be stated, and we do this within the purview of a mixed economy thrust which we have been committed to for years. Over the past 10 years, parastatals have accelerated investment in the economy, which has fuelled growth and helped mitigate the impact of the 2008 global financial crisis. Over the past four years, state-owned enterprises have invested no less than R470 billion in the economy after a long drought of lack of investment during the apartheid years.

 

While South Africa’s state-owned companies have been largely successful in carrying forward the mandate of the developmental state, there has also been a number of challenges. That has to be admitted. These challenges have been identified by the Presidential Review Committee on State-Owned Entities, which has made a number of far-reaching recommendations. The Cabinet lekgotla held earlier this year mandated the Office of the Deputy President to oversee the implementation of these recommendations.

 

As we reported in the Presidency Budget Vote debate, notable progress has been made in turning around Eskom, and I did say that the appointment of the acting chief executive officer has been a really good shot in the arm of Eskom. SA Airways, SAA, and the SA Post Office are also being turned around. With the support of the war room located in the Presidency, progress has been made in the implementation of government’s five-point plan on electricity, particularly, as well as the elements of the government support package. Governance and leadership challenges at Eskom are being addressed as we speak. In addition, government has tabled the Bills for the appropriation of the R23 billion equity injection it committed to provide to Eskom and the amending of the Bill for the conversion to equity of the subordinated loan. Both of these interventions will strengthen Eskom’s financial position. Government is firmly on track with the sale of the assets to fund the allocation to Eskom which will ensure that there is no impact on the budget deficit. Other examples of progress made include improvements in performance at Majuba and Duvha power stations and the extension of the independent power producer contracts.

 

The going concern status of SAA has been restored through the 90-day action plan, and there have been cost savings of up to R1,2 billion. The long-term turnaround strategy is being refined and has been encapsulated into the company’s corporate plan. Under the leadership of the administrator, a strategic turnaround plan has been developed for the Post Office. A thorough diagnostic review was undertaken, and a business model that is better suited to the changing postal services environment has been developed.

 

There are a number of reasons why some state-owned enterprises underperform. Some of them are the high operating costs, poor operational performance, unclear policy frameworks, and the governance processes. In December 2014, the Cabinet lekgotla established a task team to develop common principles to make sure that we address all these problems. We must dispel the myth that the people who run parastatals are ill equipped to do so ...

 

HON MEMBERS: They are!

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... because there is quite a number of people who hold that view. Many of those people are good professionals, and what they need is to be supported and assisted in the work they are doing. An honest assessment of leadership in our parastatals will prove that this is not true. Many of our parastatals are operating extremely well, and we can name them. Transnet, the SA Special Risk Insurance Association, Sasria, and many others are doing extremely well, and we have good professionals in many of these parastatals. Let us support them in doing their work. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

Mr L R MBINDA: Speaker, I am fine. The problem that I have, Deputy President, is that even this current government is injecting billions and billions in trying to bail out some of these parastatals. On the other hand, you are saying they are doing well and that they are contributing to the economy of the country. I understand the infrastructure development, but, at the same time, also the capital injection that you are providing some of these parastatals. A person like me is sitting ...

 

The SPEAKER: Do you have a question, hon member? Your minute has almost run out. [Interjections.] Do you have a follow-up question?

 

Mr L R MBINDA: I do. [Interjections.] Can you give me another minute to ask the question? [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: No, hon member. Deputy President, I don’t think there is a question for you to answer, but you can comment on what the hon member has said.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am able to comment on the comment and say that I took heart and a great deal of comfort from his opening statement that he does not have a real problem with what I was saying. Let me also say that, yes, it may well appear like we are pumping billions and billions and, in fact, it is true, but that is how the economy functions. [Interjections.] Sometimes, even in a normal company, there are times when shareholders are expected to pump money into a company so that they shore it up for better days to come.

 

Let’s look at one of yesterday’s headlines. A company that we used to own almost wholly and now own partially, Telkom, declared a wonderful dividend of 245c per share, and that is a dividend that is going to flow to the fiscus. Yes, you can look at a number of other companies as well. If you look at the Sasrias of this world, they have declared R15 billion to the fiscus, and some of the companies go through challenges, and so it goes with economic performance or business performance of companies. They go through ups and downs, and it does not mean that when they go through their downs, you have to jettison them and throw them away. It means that you have to refocus, and that is what happens with companies. You will not find a single company on the stock exchange that is forever making profits year in and year out. [Interjections.] They do go through slumps, and sometimes they go to their own shareholders with rights offers and say that they would like them, as shareholders, to pump money.

 

Now, what we are saying here is that we are now focusing attention on these state-owned enterprises through Treasury and the various other structures the President has set up. We are going to turn them around. That is a reality. They are going to be turned around. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr S N SWART: Speaker, through you to the Deputy President: Arising from your response, there are indeed success stories, and Telkom is a good example of that. However, we now see that the Petroleum, Oil and Gas Corporation of South Africa, PetroSA, is expecting to announce a massive loss of between R9 billion and R14,9 billion, which is estimated to be the largest ever loss incurred by a state-owned company.

 

This situation highlights what you have mentioned about issues about governance where we see there is a boardroom drama in which the Minister of Energy has asked three executives to take extended leave. Two of the three, significantly the chief executive officer and the chief financial officer, have refused to vacate their offices. Hon Deputy President, is this not yet another example of poor appointments by a board, of issues of governance that you pointed out, a possible lack of oversight, and is this not resulting in another parastatal that will require a turnaround strategy? Here we see a significant loss from a company that was doing very well. I appreciate this might not be mentioned, and that this might not be a direct follow-up question, but the principle, I think, needs to apply as we look at this, and will this task team possibly look at this company which is facing this severe loss? Thank you, Deputy President.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, many companies that are involved in the oil sector have faced many challenges, and many are facing losses of huge proportions. As the follow-up question is not really related to this but to the process, let me address that.

 

The process clearly is that one has to look at governance. The Presidential Review Committee on State-owned Enterprises has come up with a number of good recommendations in this regard, and those will be implemented as well. They will also touch on companies like the one that you have just referred to. So, it is going to be broader and more comprehensive, and it will address itself to the key principles of governance, yes, good appointments, and making sure that, through the governance process, we are able to identify problems and challenges at an early stage.

 

When it comes to the economics of the company itself, clearly you have to rely on those who are in the governance structures to identify risky business deals and risky decisions that have been taken. So, we will be focusing on all of those as part of going through the recommendations of the Presidential Review Committee on State-owned Enterprises.

 

Ms N W A MAZZONE: Speaker and Deputy President, unfortunately, Eskom has just announced that Stage 2 load shedding is about to happen, so I hope we have enough time with the lights on so that I can finish my question.

 

Eskom also yesterday very patronisingly advised South Africans that we should wear warm clothes and make fires and that that will solve our electricity crisis during the winter months. I find that kind of statement unacceptable. I think many South Africans, Deputy President, are now in the very similar situation where we are wondering whether this war room is anything more than a simple public relations exercise that, unfortunately, has gone quite wrong. We stand here today not knowing what the situation with Medupi and Kusile is. All that we know is that the deadline keeps getting moved further and further away. We know that our economy is suffering disastrous effects from this constant load shedding that we are being faced with.

 

We haven’t had a parliamentary briefing, not to the Portfolio Committee on Energy, not to the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, as to what the actual role of the war room is, and we would like to know from you, Deputy President, when are you going to give South Africans the kind of surety they so crave, and when are we going have some kind of surety that we can give to our investors, both foreign and local, so that, in some way, our economy can grow and we can bypass this disastrous curve that we now find ourselves on? Not only do we shed electricity every day, we shed jobs at an alarming rate. [Applause.] Something has to be done, Deputy President, and when you announced your war room, you will know that the DA and I welcomed this because we look to you as a beacon of light – if you will pardon the pun – in a very dark time. So far, you haven’t given us much to be hopeful about, and Minister Radebe announced the five-point plan. I would like to know from you how far we are with this five-point plan. Have we actually achieved anything of the five-point plan, and what can we expect going forward for the next six months, at the very least?

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the issues that the hon member had raised had been canvassed quite extensively in this Parliament. Not only the Minister of Public Enterprises but the Minister of Energy and, indeed, the President himself have stood at this podium, addressed this issue and said that this is a challenge that we all face, as South Africans, and we are not sleeping on the job. [Interjections.] We are working on it.

 

Now you raise the issue of the five-point plan. One of the things we have done in regard to the five-point plan is to look at the challenge of maintenance. So you know, this time we found that, with regard to maintenance, there had been a bit of slack, but the war room started focusing on that. [Interjections.] In the end, it was decided that the technical people and the managers must now go to the power stations and work there. The acting chief executive officer has made it his job to go to each power station, or one power station after another, every Friday. So, he is there, focused on the job, meaning that the task of maintenance of our power stations is being looked at. Remember that many of our power stations are 30 years and older, and they therefore need quite a lot of maintenance. The original equipment manufacturers also have been roped in quite extensively to work with Eskom to make sure that we maintain our power plants, our power stations, and this is being done on a programmatic basis.

 

One of the things that has been looked at is the liquidity of Eskom. Let’s face it: Eskom has faced financial challenges, and the liquidity challenge has been addressed ad nauseam by Treasury. The Minister of Finance has stood here and has piloted a Bill, as I was saying earlier. We have had to look at the demand side. The demand side is something that is being looked at actively. How do we manage the demand side equation? One of the other key and important things is to see how we bring in other independent power producers. We have signed agreements with those independent power producers. We are now going to rope them in so that they continue feeding the grid with the power that they produce.

 

We are also focusing on cogenerators. Cogeneration means that we are relying on other role players – it could be companies and what have you – to come to the party, to help us generate more energy. At the same time, we are looking at Medupi, at Duvha, and at Kusile, and progress is being made on an ongoing basis. Yes, there have been roll-outs in terms of time where we were not ready as we were meant to be, and there are quite a number of reasons for that. Part of that is that we lost some skills. Some of the people left the company. [Interjections.] Therefore, we have had to plug that hole.

 

Let me give you the assurance that, yes, much as we are going through load shedding, that is going to be a problem that stays with us for the next year, 18 months to two years. That is something that we will not be able to run away from. Beyond that, South Africa will have sufficient energy. You have to travel around the world and find that we are not the only country that is facing an energy crisis. [Interjections.] I promise you, we are not. You can go to the great United States of America, you can go to Europe, you can go to Southeast Asia and find that many countries have gone through the challenges that we are going through. The good thing with us is that we are not sitting on our backsides. We are addressing these problems. [Interjections.] This we are to continue doing. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

Mr N SINGH: Speaker, I note that the hon Deputy President is in quite an aggressive mood this afternoon. I don’t know what prompted it. Maybe he got up on the wrong side of the bed. [Interjections.]

 

Having said that, hon Deputy President, we agree that, yes, there are good professionals in SOEs, but they are few and far between. This is evident from the number of suspensions that we have seen, the number of resignations that we have see. You are fully aware of what happened at Eskom when the former chairperson of the board suspended four senior officials of Eskom, including the chief executive officer. What is the outcome of that inquiry? Nothing will happen. In fact, the former chief executive officer has been given a golden handshake.

Deputy President, this does not gel well with the public of South Africa and with us as Members of Parliament when there is prima facie evidence for an inquiry, for people to be suspended, and then things are swept under the carpet, and people are given golden handshakes. What is your view on this kind of practice that is taking place?

 

Further, Deputy President, the whole issue of appointing people to these boards, if one has to look at the SOEs and the number of people that are appointed to these boards, a number of individuals are appointed on multiple boards. [Interjections.] How can they do justice to serving on these boards when they are appointed on multiple boards? Something needs to be done about the appointment of board members and the appointment of managers because it is not only about the R23 billion that you are going to give Eskom or any more money that is going to be thrown into SOEs, but it is about poor management in many of these SOEs. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, on the first issue of skills, let me just say that since his appointment, the acting chief executive officer of Eskom has gone ahead and done something quite unique. As soon as he was appointed, he combed the whole of Eskom for skills, and he found a number of young people with rare skills, including engineering and environmental skills, that he has now put in a forum – a chief executive officer’s forum. These are young people of all colours that he is now working with in a very focused way. As he goes to each power station, he goes with these young people, and they are coming up with new, fresh ideas.

 

They have just recently qualified. Some of them have maybe three to five years experience. Those who left had 20 years experience and so forth. Yes, we have lost those skills for a number of reasons, but he is focusing on restoring the capability of Eskom when it comes to technical and engineering capability of the electricity type. That is being focused on, and that is why I said that the appointment of that type of chief executive officer has been a shot in the arm of Eskom. So, we are going to see some good things coming out of Eskom. That I promise you because I have seen, and many of us have seen, how he works and how he functions.

 

You talk about golden handshakes. Yes, the laws in our country dictate that when you have to get rid of people, there are certain laws and processes that you have to follow. It may well appear like we are giving people golden handshakes, and it is expensive. Yes, that may well be the case, but we have to follow due process and the laws that we have. We think that, in the end, when you are trying to secure a better future for the company, at times it may well be worth going down this route.

 

Yes, there are people who sit on multiple boards, and that we have become aware of because, in terms of the Presidential Review Committee on State-owned Enterprises, we are reviewing the quality of board members that we would like to have in these state-owned enterprises. We are going to become more focused, we are going to become choosier, and we are going to look more introspectively at the skills base of those people so that we choose the best of breed. [Interjections.] The best of breed must be people who will come into these boards and make a real, meaningful contribution. They must not just bring their pretty faces, but they must bring the skills that they can bring to bear on these state-owned enterprises.

 

So, I welcome your suggestion in this regard, and it is something that we will continue to focus on to make sure that our boards get better for these state-owned enterprises.

 

The SPEAKER: That concludes questions to the Deputy President, and I thank the hon the Deputy President for his hard work this afternoon. [Applause.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, you forgot one more question because it is supposed to be four.

 

The SPEAKER: No, we’ve done all the supplementaries; I can list the people: the person who had asked the question originally was given an opportunity, hon Swart, hon Mazzone, and hon Singh.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I was under the impression that the follow-up question was not a question. Even the Deputy President admitted that.

 

The SPEAKER: He commented, and the Deputy President... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: This is not a comment session; it’s a question session.

 

ECONOMICS

Cluster 4

 

Progress made in establishment of agri-parks and co-operatives in poorest district municipalities

 

140.        Mr M Hlengwa (IFP) asked the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries:

 

What progress has been made in the establishment of (a) agri-parks and/or (b) co-operatives and clusters within the poorest 27 district municipalities in the country?           NO2347E

 

The SPEAKER: Question 140 has been asked by the hon Hlengwa of the IFP to the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. Hon members, I have been informed that the Minister and the Deputy Minister are not available to answer questions. Therefore, questions asked to the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries will stand over. We now move to Question 164.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: We had a discussion in the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning around this matter. Now it is one thing to say that it stands over, but the problem is that a question like this cannot stand over until the next time the Minister is in the House. So we would ask that in this particular instance, you commit, in terms of Rule 109(3), to the question standing over to the next Question Time and that time will be added, given the fact that neither the Minister nor his Deputy are here to ensure that we can actually hold Ministers accountable in the House.

 

The SPEAKER: That’s fine. I note that issue and I will look into it, hon Steenhuisen. We now move to Question 164 which has been posed by the hon T V Tobias to the Minister of Finance.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, Speaker.

 

The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, we are adamant that there has to be a proper resolution to this matter. Both the Minister and the Deputy Minister were given prior knowledge of this session. They knew the questions and they had the option of getting another Minister to answer on their behalf. Even the Deputy President, who is the Leader of Government Business, should have made sure that Parliament kept these questions. Now, the Chief Whip of the Opposition asks you to take a resolution that at the next Question Time those Ministers provide the answers as per the Rules. You say that you will look into it.

 

The SPEAKER: I will look into it.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I think that you must be fair. You must say that that is exactly what is going to happen, because you must hold these Ministers accountable. If you don’t do that, then they just ... We don’t even know why they are not here. It’s not even explained to the country. Are they sick? Are they on holiday? What is happening? They just decide not to come to Parliament like that. It can’t be. [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party?

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, we received a letter of apology and a medical certificate from the Minister who was prepared to come to the House to respond to the questions. As for the Deputy Minister, he is abroad. So with regard to the other issue that the hon Chief Whip of the Opposition raised, we will consult with the Speaker’s Office and the Leader of Government Business. Then we will continue to consult each other on this matter as to how the Chief Whips’ Forum deal with the questions – that they be put forward in next week’s Question Time. That will be considered. Thank you.

 

The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Deputy Chief Whip. Hon members, therefore we come to Question 164, which has been posed by the hon Tobias to the Minister of Finance. Hon Nene?

Particulars regarding funding model for capital injection to Eskom

 

164.        Ms T V Tobias (ANC) asked the Minister of Finance:

 

(1)        Whether, with regard to his announcement during his introduction of the Appropriation Bill and the tabling of the Division of Revenue Bill on 25 February 2015, that Eskom will receive a capital injection of R23 billion (details furnished), the funding model is sustainable; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

 

(2)        whether he considered alternative funding models to avoid contingency liabilities especially with regard to the policy of private sector investment and broadening ownership control; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

 

(3)        whether capitalisation of Eskom will take place only when funds are realised or through extension of term?                                                                                                                                  NO2373E

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Speaker, regarding the question asked by the hon Tobias, indeed with regard to the announcement during the introduction of the Budget - the R23 billion - we did table the Eskom Special Appropriation Bill last week. For any company, if I were to state the obvious, to be sustainable its revenue needs to exceed its costs. The interventions that made up the government support package included Eskom improving its efficiency through reducing costs and applying for tariff adjustments in line with regulatory processes, which are key to ensuring that the utility’s long-term sustainability is maintained. The equity injection, which we tabled here, will provide immediate and short-term support to the company by strengthening their financial position. In addition to that, we are also tabled the Bill that seeks to convert the subordinated loan into equity in order to strengthen the balance sheet of Eskom.

 

With regard to the second part of the question, namely the possibility of private investment in Eskom: Indeed, as we have indicated, these matters are being explored but, at the same time, we are also looking at alternative sources of energy including co-generation, Independent Power Producers, or IPPs, and the other forms of energy generation.

In terms of the third part of the question on whether capitalisation of Eskom will take place only when funds are realised: Indeed, we maintain the policy, as stated in the Budget Review of 2015, that the allocation of resources will be budget-deficit neutral. Thank you.

 

Ms T V TOBIAS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, and thank you very much, hon Minister, for your response. Hon Minister, I think you agree with me in principle that it is a necessary process to convert the R60-billion Eskom debt to equity to bolster its borrowing capacity, and to also deal with all the nuisance raised about the capacity of Eskom to be able to raise funds to continue with its build programme. And it is very clear in this context that government has intervened in ensuring that the public sector invests in Eskom’s build programme. However, having listened to the Deputy President, he even indicated that there would be co-generation by other sectors that are being canvassed. So do you agree with me that it is important to convert this R60 billion to equity, rather than debt? I thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon member, as I said, through you, House Chair, the reason is indeed to improve the balance sheet of Eskom, and also to enable Eskom to go out into the market with a balance sheet that is much stronger. I can also confirm that this matter has been dealt with extensively by the Deputy President in his responses on the Eskom matter. Thank you.

 

Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, I actually wanted to ask the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries a question, but he is not here. Could we go to the next person? I pressed the button for the previous question.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, no problem. Hon Ross, you can ask your question.

 

Mr D C ROSS: Thank you for the opportunity, Madam Chairperson. Minister, with regard to the alternative funding models that you’ve indicated to us, we are glad to say the DA made those proposals with regard to alternative funding in terms of equity or shares, loans over a longer period of time and also sovereign bonds. I think this is a step in the right direction with regard to the Eskom funding crisis.

 

However, Minister, whether the latest bailout is sustainable or not needs to be seen. Only last week we tabled the Bill converting the balance of R60 billion in terms of the subordinated loan into ordinary shares. Is it sustainable for the fiscus, Minister, or is it indeed credible for the state-owned enterprise to pay back cold money received in terms of a loan now converted into shares? What will be the impact on the fiscus, and is it credible for state-owned entities to shift the burden back to the state in this regard? Is it not shifting money from Peter to Paul to meet the obligations? I thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you for the question, hon Ross. Indeed, if that was also a suggestion from the DA, it was confirmation of what we were already doing. However, if I were to respond to your question with regard to the conversion of the subordinated loan into equity: the fact of the matter is that the funds had already flown to Eskom. What is happening here is that rather than keeping that as a loan - Eskom is also not obliged to service the loan since it is a state-owned entity and no funds are going to flow from the fiscus - it is actually a gain though still deficit-neutral as we speak. What it does is that it improves the balance sheet by moving it from the liability side to the asset side. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Minister. The next member is the hon Msibi from the NFP.

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): May I get clarity? This is the second time that the hon Msibi has been called, and I get you, hon Shaik.

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Yes, hon Chairperson, it is me.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is happening there?

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: I’m actually sitting in the seat of the hon Msibi.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Can we please, for the procedure to be correct, switch on the button from your own seat so that we don’t have this confusion. But I will allow you for now.

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, the R23-billion equity to Eskom was to come from the sale of nonstrategic assets which would not affect the fiscus. Could you tell us, hon Minister, if these have already been sold and whether the money is available in terms of the agreement? The first R10 billion ought to have been paid at the end of June. Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, hon Msibi. Indeed, we are on track, as the Deputy President also ... [Laughter.] My apologies ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The name is Shaik Emam.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, hon Shaik Emam. Actually the Deputy President responded to this question - when he was responding on the Eskom matter – in that we are on track. The sale of noncore state assets are indeed the source of revenue. The purpose of tabling the Eskom Special Appropriation Bill here in the House was in order to facilitate the transfer of funds as soon as the funds have come into the fiscus. It will happen during the month of June. Thank you.

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, Eskom has proven itself time and again not to be equal to the task of meeting our national energy requirements. How can we ensure value for money in funding Eskom over the next five, 10 or 15 years from now, noting the bailouts that are coming to Eskom from government? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I think several reports have come before Parliament to indicate that Eskom has turned the corner and is indeed in better shape than it was in the past. We are therefore convinced that with the process led by the Deputy President and the war room that we have all put our hands on deck in order to make sure that Eskom is able to deliver on its mandate. We are likely to be reporting progress in this regard in the near future. Thank you.

 

Impact of load-shedding and other factors on slowing of economic growth rate

 

174.      Mr S N Swart (ACDP) asked the Minister of Finance:

 

What (a) impact is load-shedding estimated to have on the slowing of the country’s economic growth rate to 1,3%  of the gross domestic product for the first quarter of 2015, (b) other factors have contributed to the low economic growth rate and (c) are the prospects for achieving a growth rate of 2% or higher for 2015?                                                                      NO2383E

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, the question has to do with the impact that load-shedding is estimated to have on slowing the country’s economic growth rate to 1,3%. The answer to your first question, hon Swart, is that our estimates indicate that the electricity shortage as a result of electricity supply constraints will shave between 0,5% and 1% from annual real gross domestic product, GDP, growth in 2015.

 

This has been accounted for in our 2015 budget review forecast. Had electricity not been a binding constraint on the economy, our real GDP growth could have ranged between 2,5% and 3% for this year. On a quarterly basis this translates into growth of between 2,3% and 2,9% in the first quarter of 2015. Therefore, it is estimated that the first quarter load-shedding subtracted between 0,8% and 1,6% from seasonally adjusted and annualised quarterly growth.

 

With regard to the second question, electricity indeed remains the key constraint to growth and was the primary reason for growth of 1,3% in the first quarter of 2015. Agriculture was also negatively affected in addition to this by severe drought conditions which adversely affected some of our crops, such as maize and sunflower.

 

Indicators also show that consumers continue to be weighed down by high debt levels and low employment growth which also contribute to this low growth that we are talking about. Investment is constrained by low confidence and expectations of subdued demand at home.

With regard to the third question, at the time of the budget we expected real GDP to grow by 2% in 2015. The first quarter outcome of 1,3% was indeed in line with National Treasury’s expectation for growth as we had anticipated the electricity supply constraints and had built it into our forecast. We therefore believe that 2% is still a realistic and attainable growth outcome for 2015. Thank you.

 

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, we’ve dealt a lot with load-shedding and the Eskom issues and we understand from the Deputy President that it’s going to be ongoing for 18 months to two years and you have correctly considered that it is a severe constraint. You also indicated that manufacturing was directly impacted by load-shedding but we also had the drought impacting the maize harvest. Do you not agree that without a sustainable economic growth of way above 2%, I think the National Development Plan, NDP, speaks about 5%, there can be little prospect of significant job creation.

 

My second question is related to the impact on revenue targets but you have to a certain degree answered that because you’ve indicated that the constraints caused by load-shedding have already been built into your growth targets. However, are you still satisfied with the progress that Eskom is making in turning around that your target figure for economic growth which will impact on revenue collection is still on track? Thank you very much.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: As you correctly point out, indeed, we do need growth which is higher than the 2% that we have projected, but we are being realistic here and we are saying with the constraints that are currently obtaining on the ground, it is unlikely that we would be able to realise growth that would exceed 2%. However, what is also important is to look at the quality of the growth. The 2% growth has the potential of creating jobs if it is inclusive enough. It is for that reason that we are focussing on other sectors which could either be less energy intensive but will have a higher rate of job absorption like agriculture as we have pointed out. I think we are on track. Indeed, we are concerned about revenue, but we think we are still on track because we have priced it in our projections. Thank you.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: In the Standing Committee on Finance we asked you hon Minister what exactly are you going to privatise out of Eskom and you did not respond. We wrote to you but you did not respond. Your own secretary general, Mr Mantashe, publicly said that privatisation of Eskom or any of its assets is not consistent with your own policies. Your labour desk, Cosatu, also opposed you on privatisation when you spoke recently at the World Economic Forum. What are you going to privatise and what is the purpose of such because as it is evident now with the 4 000 jobs that were lost at Telkom which the Deputy President says ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please ask the question. Your one minute is over by 6 seconds.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: We are still saying that as the 4 000 jobs that were lost in Telkom which the Deputy President says are dividends, what are we going to privatise in Eskom and what is the purpose of such privatisation? Haven’t we gone through enough pain as a country of outsourcing and privatising key state enterprises? Thank you very much.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Before you answer, let’s remember that the supplementary question is only one minute and it is important that you really ask that supplementary question.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thanks to the hon member for the question even though the question in his letter and the questioning is actually not very clear, because we said this R23 billion will come from the disposal of noncore state assets. If your interpretation of the disposal of noncore state assets is privatisation, then we do not have the same interpretation of the words. But as we said that because of the market sensitivity of the matter we will not divulge that until such time that we have concluded the matter. Everyone accepts that because when we talk about price sensitivity of assets of the nature that we are handling, everybody understands that that would have a negative impact on the price of the asset itself. Everybody understands and this Parliament understands and it is for that reason we were able to present this to Parliament and the committee at large. Thank you.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: On a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ross, take your seat. Yes, hon Shivhambu.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Is it parliamentary for a Minister who is supposed to account to this House to withhold information every time on the basis that it is market sensitive? Which Rule covers such? We are here to demand answers about what is going to be privatised. He calls it disposal and everything else; what is he going to dispose? He must tell us so that we know. How are we going to hold the executive accountable if we can’t be told basic information of what is going to be disposed from state-owned enterprises? All of us here as a collective, we have an obligation to take care of this country, but if a Minister, who is supposed to account to us, just comes here and says that I can’t tell you because it is market sensitive. What accountability is that?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, you have made your point, hon Shivhambu. Please wait a bit, hon Ross. I understand your concern and I think it’s something, but from where I’m sitting, we cannot force the Minister to answer something as he has answered. Perhaps, it’s not what you wanted to hear, but we believe that through other methods, you can do that and you might be responded to satisfactorily. Thank you.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, may you please not leave it like that. Can you please go and check and then come back to us. Don’t say you can’t force a Minister to disclose

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Not for now.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: We are requesting that you go back and check the Rules thorough because they have an obligation in terms of, as far as I know, ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That’s not a point of order.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... a lot of legislation, including the Rules ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. No, thank you.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... to give us information. How do you dispose of our assets and say I can’t tell you which assets I’m going to dispose?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, thank you. Now you are asking another question.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: They are our assets. Please.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please. I can’t really answer that. Thank you very much.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, as a second issue, can you please protect me from, I do not know the member’s name, can you please protect me from him because we will cause the House to degenerate. Listen, I can’t take that.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is it, hon Ndlozi?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: He keeps telling me to sit down. He can’t do that. Hon Chief Whip, can you please call them to order because we are going to degenerate? I can’t be told by you to sit down.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Do you hear that?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: No problem.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Order! Allow me to chair, please hon members. Hon Ross, it’s your time.

 

Mr D C ROSS: Thank you, Chairperson for allowing me to talk about the very important issue of the economic growth.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Chairperson, on a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ross, please sit down. Hon Shivhambu.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Hon Ndlozi rose on a point of order and gave you guidance on how to handle some of these issues. Right? Don’t take knee jack responses and say we can’t demand the information that we need to hear here in this Parliament.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh! Hon member, thank you.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Can we set the process so that when we come back here we are told as Parliament what exactly is going to be disposed of, because it’s a simple process. Don’t make ridiculous decisions from there because you won’t sustain them.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Now the language that you are using does not allow me to respond the way I want to. Please sit and let me respond to you.

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Please do.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I responded to hon Ndlozi. It’s true, I cannot, as the Chairperson, instruct the Minister to answer in a certain way and that is why I said that I understand, I note that and we will check into it. It doesn’t have to come even to this House for that explanation and I got what hon Ndlozi was saying. Please allow us to continue. Thank you. Hon Ross.

 

Mr D C ROSS: At last we can talk about the very important issue in the country and that’s a slowing growth in our economy which deserves our attention and our full attention. Now the last quarter presented 1,3% of gross domestic product and, of course, the rating agencies noted this and this is a very important issue for rating agencies because it affirmed the country’s BBB rating and it cited the most important issue in terms of constraining growth was inadequate and unstable electricity supply. But it also indicated, Minister, policy proposals currently under discussion that had adverse impact on growth and those policy proposals were with regard to parts of the Mineral Resource Act, visa regulations, a minimum wage and amendments to the labour law and, of course, land reform.

 

Fitch also noted, of course, the slow implementation of the National Development Plan and I think we putting our full effort with regard to turning that around. Minister, the question to you is: How do you intend to repair the damage done by the confused and often contradiction with regard to policy making in all these different aspects that Fitch has alluded to. 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before you answer, hon Minister, I just want to say that I’ve been very patient with the preambles that you make. They really take time into your one minute and I’ve allowed all of you to pose your questions at the end, but it means we are not sticking to the time. Please, hon members, everyone who is going to ask a supplementary question, your time is one minute. Cut short on the preambles. Hon Minister.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thanks again for the question in relation to, firstly the ratings agencies do take into account that there are a number of factors which affect or impact on economic growth. Among the things that they mention indeed are domestic factors and our structural reforms that are currently underway, but with regard to the implementation of the National Development Plan, we, in this House, all know that this is now integrated into our planning, in the medium-term strategic framework, in the strategic plans that were tabled before the committees and in the annual performance plans, APPs, that the committees have been dealing with. So, it is now in the process of being implemented and at times, the ratings agencies do miss a point that they expect - in the plans that we continue to say it is now at implementation stage and it is upon or on the basis of that that committees will hold various departments to account.

 

Also, with regard to policy certainty, at times it’s misinterpretation and misunderstanding of our policy positions and in my view, we are actually coherent in policy formulation and the policy that we put before the nation as government. We therefore don’t see any point of any policy incoherence or uncertainty. Thank you.

 

Ms P S KEKANA: House Chair and hon Minister, thank you for your response. As a follow-up to your response, hon Minister, given that government is implementing the five point plan as an integrated strategy in response to the energy emergency, what impact in terms of economic growth will these measures have in achieving a 2% growth rate for 2015 and with regard to the factors and sectors mentioned as contributing to the economic growth in the first quarter of 2015, what are the co-ordinated interventions in these sectors that will produce the 2% growth rate for 2015 and lastly, given the similar experience of other countries globally what are the lessons learnt and how are these lessons being incorporated into the strategic plan for economic growth. Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you again for the follow-up to the first follow-up question. The 2% growth is premised on the current 75% power availability and therefore the five point plan is expected to improve the capacity further which will lift economic growth beyond the 2% baseline. If you look at our budget review on page 20, we have put the scenarios.

 

With regard to your second follow-up, the first quarter GDP was in line, as I said earlier, with our expectations of 2% GDP outcome for the year. The five point plan will ensure that the manufacturing and mining sector return to production capacity in providing the necessary power. These two sectors are suffering from low investment given uncertainty with power supply and continue to be a drag on our economic performance.

 

In terms of your third follow-up question, indeed we have learnt lessons. Lessons learnt from power developments include private sector participation, which I’ve alluded to earlier, improving the energy mix looking at gas, solar, shale and all other sources of energy. In terms of other issues, the nine priorities enlisted in the state of the nation address, highlight the strategic planning and focus areas of government. Thank you.

 

Particulars regarding development of energy efficiency programmes

 

165.        Ms Z S Faku (ANC) asked the Minister of Energy:

 

(a) Which energy efficiency programmes were developed and (b) what are the (i) achievements and (ii) challenges that this sector still faces in view of the National Energy Efficiency Strategy of 2005 (details furnished)?                      NO2374E

 

The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Thank you to the member for the question. The energy efficiency strategy approved by government in 2005 provided for a 12% reduction target in terms of energy usage relative to the 2 000 baseline. The industry, mining power generation, commercial and public buildings, residential and transport sectors were targeted for contributing towards this target.

 

Various energy efficiency initiatives have been put in place in view of this strategy and pursuant to the target. Our target of a 12% reduction by 2015 relative to the 2 000 baseline was measured against this monitoring system and the indication is that indeed our reduced energy consumption can be attributed to the efficiency initiatives taken by government rather than by external factors like declining economic activity.

 

The Municipal Energy Efficiency Demand Side Management is the programme involving the transfer of fiscal subsidies and targets energy efficiency improvements in various municipalities through efficient technology deployment in lighting, heating, ventilation, and cooling systems. Street lighting and the use of small technologies are also being used for managing energy.

 

Where there is evidence that more savings have been achieved through the industrial, commercial and solar water heater initiatives, these initiatives and savings have not been qualified and independently verified yet. Going forward, the energy efficiency target monitoring system will be utilised to provide the platform for quantifying the aggregate impact of all energy efficiency initiatives. I thank you.

 

Ms Z S FAKU: Thank hon Chair, and thank you hon Minister for the comprehensive response to my question. Hon Minister, my follow up question is how can we improve energy efficiency in the residential sector? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF ENERGY: The reduction of energy in the residential envelope was identified as the critical component of energy efficiency strategy giving the potential benefits to electricity grid and the reduction in building energy costs that we have and our energy needs.

 

However, we do not envisage punishing residential sectors or the industrial sector one at the expense of the other. So the balance of where we implement load shedding has to take into account the impact of load shedding on residential areas as well as industrial sectors. I think that when it comes to energy efficiencies we have been able to save more megawatts from the industrial sector and the residential sectors. Really, we need to appeal to all South Africans to use energy efficiently and to contribute to the energy savings, which we now require in our country.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, you have spoken about the 12% target and I could not make head or tail of whether we have actually achieved the target in the prescribed time. Now that being the case, hon Minister, what reassurance can you give to the House that this strategy would be turned into action and not just revised every single time targets are not met?

 

So in brief, we want to find out, have the targets being met and if not, what then is going to be done to ensure that we arrive at the point where those targets are met? Furthermore, and more importantly, we then want to find out what are the assurances you would give to this House, and the political action required that would be meted out to ensure that we actually meet this target. I thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF ENERGY: The biggest challenge facing the energy efficiency effort has been the ability to measure and to quantify the savings and the targets that we have achieved. Whilst this has now been addressed through the target monitoring system and where the target monitoring system hasn’t addressed these challenges, we still have challenges in measuring our targets.

 

So, this revised implementation model which we have developed in order to align our programmes with our objectives and to accelerate the pace of implementation, is what we will actually roll out and speedup in the following few months. The Cabinet approved a new model and it is expected to be implemented in this coming financial year.

 

One of the cheapest options available to our country is to change the behaviour patterns of our population; but change in behaviour patterns cannot necessarily be measured. So as we improve the implementation, our capacity capability to measure, I think we will also be able to implement cost savings, the taxing and rebates in taxes in a much more efficient way. Thank you.

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Modulasetilo wa nako, ke tlile go botsa motlotlegi Tona gore o tsaya karolo efe mo go Eskom gonne Eskom ga e ka fa tlase ga tsamaiso ya gagwe. Ke eneji efe e a buang ka yona gonne sentlentle, setlamo sa Eskom ga se ka fa tlase ga gagwe. Eskom ke boikarabelo ba Motlatsamoporesidente jaaka re ntse re mo utlwa a bua fano. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Chairperson, I am going to ask the hon Minister what role she has at Eskom, because it is not under her leadership. Which energy is she referring to? The Deputy President is the one responsible for Eskom, as has already been alluded to. Thank you.]

 

The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Yes, indeed the entity of Eskom is with the Minister of Public Enterprises, but as you know and I’m sure the hon member knows that the Department of Energy supplies the energy master plan, supplies the integrated resource plan and it looks at the energy mix for our country. Indeed, the national energy regulator South Africa reports to the Minister of energy. So, I don’t want to give the hon member a lecture.

 

I’m sure the hon member is familiar with these prescripts of the Constitution and the laws of our country. However, there is a very good relationship between the Department of Energy and the Department of Public Enterprises in how we manage the energy security situation in our country as well as how we manage energy sufficiency and efficiency mechanisms in our country bid in the public or private sector. I thank you.

 

Mr G MACKAY: Thank you Chair, Minister. Congratulations on reportedly sending the much-needed solar water heater programme rebates regulations to Cabinet. It is a pity that it took six months to achieve this outcome despite being well aware that this programme would be returned to your department at the end of 2014. Your dithering has cost the country an estimated six to eight thousand jobs and resulted in a closure of numerous small and medium size businesses.

 

Minister, how will you and your department regain the confidence of the investors in business and ensure that this much-needed programme with its potential of significantly promoting energy efficiency in South Africa be rolled out. I thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF ENERGY: The hon member Mackay has asked me this question several times and I have answered him this question several times. As far as it comes to business confidence in the sector, the hon Mackay just needs to know that the Independent Power Producer, IPP, programmes and different programmes we have on solar energy the windy energy cogeneration that is the new request for information that we publish on the Gas Sita. It has generated so much confidence in the business and in the energy sector. Something, which - I’m sure you are well aware of and it is that very same business sector that is also involved in solar water heaters.

 

So yes, we are working with businesses on addressing this model. SMMEs are very concerned about how the solar water heater model functions in terms of the maintenance of the solar water heaters. Your very same DA municipalities have complained that the model has to include mechanisms for maintenance, the installation how the SMMEs can be involved in the installation.

 

As far as I’m concern, many people are convinced that the model had to be changed. We have changed the model and it will not now leave us with solar water heaters as we have in the municipality of Cape Town, your own Mayor complaining about it. We can no longer have solar water heaters that are dysfunctional, which are not working and which do not serve the purpose they are intending to serve.

 

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

 

MR M WATERS: Chair, as agreed in the Chief Whips forum today, are you going to just use a list or do we have to get up and ask for a declaration every time now?

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS MG Boroto): Hon members, I am being advised that I will just ask for declarations and then continue.

 

APPROPRIATION BILL

 

(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

 

Declarations of Vote:

Ms G BREYTENBACH: Madam Chairperson, the DA does not support the Budget Vote for the Department of Justice. Last year, we supported it. We said that the Minister was new and that he had made some encouraging changes and that he deserved the benefit of the doubt. Today, one year later, he no longer deserves the benefit and there can be no doubt.

 

He constantly tells us that he is responsible for the administration of justice in this country. In this, he is failing miserably. There is no discernable justice for the Minister to administer.

 

The budget allocation of the department pales into insignificance, if one considers what precisely he is presiding over. He has presided over the further slide of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, into ignominy. He has allowed the criminal justice system to continue on a lethargic slide, but much worse, he has allowed the President to abuse the system for which he is responsible, to the extent that most South Africans no longer believe in the concept of justice. He has aided and abetted the President in wreaking havoc in the criminal justice system, as a whole. He has allowed the President to abuse taxpayers’ money in order to rid himself of inconvenient stumbling blocks, while keeping in place persons in high positions whom all South Africans know are not fit to be kept in that positions.

 

Mr Minister, we all know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over. Therefore, until the Minister uses his official capacity to ensure stability in the criminal justice system and to uphold the rule of law, we are regrettably unable to support his budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson of the House, last time we indicated that we have not seen any aggressive plan for the budget to ensure the decommodification of access to justice, particularly for the poor or an aggressive improvement in the production of lawyers who represent our people, particularly the poor, at no cost, as much as possible.

 

We are not convinced that there is a process where the costs of law, lawyers and everybody else are coming down, so that access to justice is not captured by capital.

 

The EFF opposes this budget as well, because the ANC government is the last government in the world today to speak about the promotion of access to justice and the rule of law. The greatest threat to the rule of law and general public order is the elite who steel public funds and nobody is arrested, tried or imprisoned, like the President of the ANC.

 

The greatest threat to the rule of law comes from the ANC officials who publically harass, undermine and mock those who run independent institutions like the Public Protector, Thuli Madonsela, who fights corruption of politicians like President Zuma.

 

The greatest threat to the rule of law comes from lies. In fact, the poor still do not have access to quality legal representation. We reject those who run this government and we believe that giving more money is endorsing and promoting the undermining of the rule of law and constitutional development.

 

You can’t be trusted with ensuring the rule of law because you are the number one people to break the law. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr M W MADISHA: Chairperson, since 2009, there has hardly been any constitutional development. Given the fact that we took examples from other countries when we evolved our own Constitution, I wish to refer to those.

 

Constitutional development in Venezuela and Ecuador is imbued with philosophical and ethical calls for goodness, harmony, social integration, virtue and other moralistic goals. For example, Ecuador’s constitution created the national equality councils for the control of public ethics and individual moral behaviour. South Africa must follow suit.

 

Clauses on public morality, ethical behaviour, political funding, disclosure, electoral refinement, etc, merit inclusion in our Constitution. In Venezuela, for example, we have a fourth branch of government that can punish those whose conduct violates public ethics and administrative morals. We must follow suit.

 

There are 1,8 million serious crimes committed in South Africa, but only 333 060 cases are finalised.

 

Finally, the President has seriously compromised the criminal justice system. Cope therefore cannot support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I just want to inform members from this side that you may speak from where you are seated. The Chief Whips’ Forum has been able to resolve the issue of the noise, if you are at the back. There is no problem if you want to come to the podium. Just make sure that you are here on time. Let’s not wait for you.

 

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the budgets of the Human Rights Commission and the Public Protector form part of this Budget Vote. The Human rights Commission again expressed concerns that many of its reports and recommendations are not being implemented by state departments and a glaring example is its 2010 report, following the widespread xenophobic violence in 2008.

 

It is interesting that the report sets out a number of recommendations to various government departments such as Justice, Police and Home Affairs and included an early warning system, an annual indaba, undertaking of pragmatic reforms of immigration policy, regulating industries which employ non-nationals and education and awareness programmes. Regrettably, the commission noted in its press release in April this year that most of these recommendations have not been implemented, nor acted upon by various government departments.

 

There can be no doubt that, had these recommendations been implemented, the present wave of xenophobia that we experienced this year would have been prevented or much reduced.

 

The Public Protector plays a major role in strengthening constitutional democracy through preventing and combating administration, in all its forms, from indifference and corruption. I don’t have to repeat what we said in the Budget Vote about the manner in which the Public Protector was treated by the justice committee.

 

This resulted in a letter of complaint to both the chairman and the Speaker wherein Adv Madonsela stated that in her five years in Office, she had not been treated in such a manner. She complained that the meeting was inexplicably unpleasant, even hostile. We, from the ACDP, agree. As I said, rudeness can never be passed off for robust engagement. There can be no doubt that the knives are still out for the Public Protector.

 

This is a direct result of a damning Nkandla report and other embarrassing reports, including the SABC report. I thank you.

 

Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, of the many issues in the department, we would want to single out the issue of the third-party fund, which, in the history of this department, has been a challenge, despite considered efforts over a period of time, especially under the current director-general. They have not been able to get it right.

 

We do however recognise the efforts and the progress that has been made. We just want to emphasise, Minister, the commitments that have been made, especially to get a financial system that will assist in ensuring that financial information that can be relied upon is produced, will ensure that we have proper accounting for the funds that goes into the courts. These funds will assist those who are looking for maintenance money and bail and other money that are deposited into the courts.

 

We believe that it is one element that still lags behind after so many other issues have been resolved.

 

As the APC, we support the Budget Vote but think the third-party fund needs to be given serious attention.

Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Chairperson, it is important that we remind one another that South Africa is a constitutional state based on the doctrine of separation of powers. In such a state there are institutions supporting democracy, but those institutions don’t have the equal status with the three arms of government, which is Parliament, the executive and judiciary.

 

It is also important to know that no Chapter 9 institution has the authority to investigate into the work of the judiciary and come to determinations such as a cut-and-paste judgement, referring to the judgement of any of our High Courts or the Supreme Court.

 

It is also important that we understand that our jurisprudence is still evolving. An example of that is the fact that there is not unanimity on the meaning of the powers of, for example, the Public Protector. It is for that reason that the matter had to go before the Western Cape High Court, which said remedial action of the Public Protector is not binding and enforceable.

 

Some members on this side continue to instigate the Public Protector to demand that her powers are binding and enforceable and that is wrong. [Interjections.] No knives are out for the Public Protector in this House or in this country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Congress of the People, African Christian Democratic Party, African Peoples Convention and African National Congress.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 214: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Brown, L; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 84: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, P J; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Mulder, P W A; Mulder, C P; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote No 22 – Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration — put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, this is the only Budget Vote, out of the 40 votes requesting monies that the EFF supports, that is, from presidency to sports. It is the only because it is not the request of the ANC deployees; it is not going to fund ANC politicians and that is why we are supporting it. However, we are extremely very concerned of the limited allocation to this budget because it would be extremely difficult for this office to fulfill its mandate. We think that this is a deliberate attempt by the current government to frustrate this office because it is not being led by one of their puppets.

We commend the Chief Justice for rising above criticism because since his appointment into this office he was accused of being the puppet of the current administration. We have recently seen how independent entities like the Public Protector - which are not puppets of the President - are being prosecuted and antagonised.

 

We believe underfunding is the new weapon of the current administration to sabotage institutions that are independent like the Chapter 9 institutions that are seen not to be protecting corruption. The Chief Justice is the typical example of how one can be appointed by one of the most corrupt administrations in recent times and still be independent.

 

The proclamation of the Office of the Chief Justice, OCJ, as the department is most welcomed because our view is that this will help to strengthen the judiciary so as not to be compromised by the current administration. As the EFF, we are confident that the leadership of the current Chief Justice will further entrench and protect the independence of the judiciary. This is the only thing that can guarantee the rule of law in this country. Nkandla will come before the judges and the President will have his day in prison. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

 

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, once again a pleasant surprise ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!

 

Mr N SINGH: ... once again a pleasant surprise to be following the EFF who are supporting one out of 40 votes. Well done. [Laughter.] We as the IFP support the vote and the creation of this particular department. However, when we spoke during the extended public committee, EPC, we spoke about the independence and we feel that there is something, hon Minister, that still needs to be looked at from the position of financial independence as well. We do understand from certain sources in your department that are concerns of profligate spending by some officials who work within this Vote 22 environment. But I think that is something that the parliamentary oversight committee needs to deal with. If there is profligate spending then they must deal with it, and should not be the reason for not granting them full independence in terms of its operations.

 

One area of concern we have is the question of the appointment of acting judges. Now there are far too few black female acting judges that are appointed. When you do not get acting judges then you do not get the upward mobility. I think this is an area where they need to look into very, very seriously because we need to have more female black judges at all levels of the judiciary from the High Court right up to the Constitutional Court. We trust that this is an area that will be looked into. And we also trust that there would be laid down criteria that would inform how advocates and attorneys are appointed as acting judges moving forward. We will support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr S N SWART: Hon Chairperson, the Office of the Chief Justice is now fully operational and as a new department with its own Budget Vote as from 1 April this year. Now, this Budget Vote addresses the institutional independence of the judiciary with administrative support functions progressively been transferred to the OCJ. It has not been an easy task, with Chief Justice Mogoeng complaining that, and I quote:

 

... there has been unbelievable resistance from the executive.

 

and that,

 

The eventual transfer of functions to the OCJ was the result of pressure from the judiciary and a much-appreciated intervention from the President.

The model is still, however, a stopgap model. We, in the ACDP, are concerned that the secretary general of the OCJ is seen as a proxy for the Minister, and this does not appear to be what was intended in the memorandum of understanding. And we welcome the Minister’s planned colloquium in this regard.

 

Lastly, the ACDP shares concerns about the financial shortfall of bout R75,7 million which will undermine the OCJ’s ability to recruit and retain the requisite expertise for it, to be able to perform its mandate. Of an approved establishment of 1 766, only a total of 324 positions are still unfilled and unfunded. We think that all of us in the justice committee erred by agreeing to the underfunding instead of approaching the appropriations committee for additional funding in terms of the provisions of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act. Let us remember that we have got the powers within the fiscal framework, hon Minister of Finance, to approach the appropriations committee and we may well have been able to secure additional funding within the fiscal framework had we done so. The ACDP will, not withstanding that, support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

 

Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Chairperson, the unanimous support for Vote 22 is confirmation of the fact that the ANC believes in the independence of the judiciary and has done the necessary to ensure that. [Applause.] That is why we are saying, the Office of the Chief Justice is operational. There is no issue such as, the Chief Justice complaining about the executive. The only question which had to be resolved was as to how that office would account to Parliament because the Chief Justice and the secretary general in his office are not Members of Parliament. So, that question is the reason why we, ourselves, the Chief Justice and the Judge Presidents would want to meet and discuss. There was no complaints against the executive.

 

Secondly, we have also met with the Administration of Justice from Botswana in the Office of the Chief Justice to see what we can learn from Botswana which could strengthen the independence of our own judiciary. The financial independence of that office is being addressed, but our Minister cannot act arbitrarily because this is a constitutional state governed by the rule of law. We do not act arbitrarily and we do not expect our Minister and our Deputy Ministers to act arbitrarily. So, siyaqhuba. [We are moving forward.] We are on course. That office is going to be established because it has to be fully independent.

 

Now this noise about people being people being puppets are actually the screams of dying snakes and we should not worry about them because they are not taking us anywhere. Thank you, very much. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, on appoint of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is that: We made an argument about puppets thus far, and we are told that we are dying snakes. Can the hon Mathole Motshekga withdraw those comments? You cannot say other hon members are snakes. If you allow that, hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... this House will degenerate ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no! Hon Ndlozi! [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... because we have other creative names which we can bring to the House here.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi! You know where the problem is? Okay, sit down hon Ndlozi, let me respond. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: But Chair, please be patient. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay! Okay! [Interjections.] No, the thing is, you are now debating. I heard your point of order, but then it confuses me when you continue ... [Interjections.] It is no longer the point of order. Hon Ndlozi, I am not sure what the hon Motshekga was referring to, but I will look into the matter and make a ruling before the end of this session.

 

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The ruling will be made before the end of this session. Hon Mulder, I will be with you let me start with hon Shivambu.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chairperson, the basic procedure of how you preside there is that if you identify an issue about a member, ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Mh! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... you must check with them. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: If they confirm, you then give a ruling on whether they should withdraw or not. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Ja! I get what you are saying. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Because we cannot allow to be called ... [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Snakes. Dying snakes!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... snakes by Mathole. We cannot stand that, please. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, very much. What I am saying, hon member does not mean that I do not want to rule. As I have said, I am not very sure of the content, hence I will ask for assistance from the Table ... [Interjections.] ... No, I heard him, but I might have not heard him well. So, I am going to ask the Table to assist me. That is why I said, I will rule before the end of the session. Thank you. Hon Mulder!

 

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect, my concern is that the Table might not be able to assist you to interpret what the hon member meant. What the member said was quite clear and we all heard him. He said, “The noise on this side is a noise of dying snakes.” Now, on this side we find Members of Parliament. I would therefore suggest to you, hon Chair, with due respect, that you ask the hon member whether he meant what he said, and if so, was he directing it to any Member of Parliament? That is the question. The Table cannot assist you in this matter. That is all. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.

 

An HON MEMBER: You are an embarrassment!

 

An HON MEMBER: You are all weak!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you very much. I am advised that I should make a ruling before the end of this session. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, hon Chair, while we are waiting for a ruling, we want to categorically state that hon Mathole is a dead snake himself, and we will withdraw once a ruling has been made. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): May I say, hon member ... Oh, no, hon members, thank you. Hon members! No, hon ...

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Deputy Chief Whip!

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, my point of order is that: Two wrongs do not make it right. [Interjections.] I think the House Chairperson said, she is going to make a ruling on this one. So, we cannot allow ourselves to degenerate to a level where we begin to address each other by our first names or as snakes. We have hon members in this House. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Deputy Chief Whip your point ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, we want to appeal to the highest logic here. There are three things: If you want to earn the confidence and the trust ... We have not forgetten that all the presiding officers are ANC members and when they do not become tough on ANC members ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... who are out of order, that will make this House to degenerate, that is number one. And if they do not protect us, we are forced to protect ourselves. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: So, hon Motshekga, from being a premier of Gauteng, you have fallen and you are a dead snake. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: You will come back and correct that, if you correct him.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please sit! Hon members, let us continue. I think points have been made and I made a ruling. And I will ... [Interjections.]

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: On a point of order, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Zulu?

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: No ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Hon members, before hon Zulu could speak, let me say this. I have listened to the points that were raised from both sides, and when I make a ruling, I will consider all of them, including even the remarks that were made by hon Shivambu. Thank you, very much. I now put Vote No—23. No, sorry, I am not done. You see now ...

 

... nenza umsebenzi wami bona ungakhambi kuhle. Niyangihlangahlanganisa, kodwana ngiya raga ngiyaphambili. [You are making my work difficult. You are derailing me, but none the less I continue.]

 

Hon members, order! Order, hon members! I now put the vote again ... [Interjections.] Aa! Please, please, I am now speaking, hon members.

 

Question put.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, whether you use signs to demonstrate that you demand change, I am qualified to be here. [Applause.]

 

Vote No 23 – Police – put

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections. [Interjections.] In light of the objections, I now put the question. Those in favour of Vote 23 – Police being agreed to, say Aye, those against say Noe. [Interjections.] I think the Ayes have it. And the objections will be noted. There has been a request for declaration. I now call on the DA. [Applause.]

 

Declarations of vote:

Ms D KOHLER: Chair, there is no indication that the propose budget will do much more than pay seemingly in these Legal Bills. The Minister has over and over, and over again contentiously ignored court rulings, which he then appeals loses again and ignores again. This is where the hard earned taxpayer money is going. He unlawfully suspended the head of the Hawks, unlawfully appointed the Acting Hawks boss Berning Ntlemeza, unlawfully suspended Hawks boss from Gauteng and taxpayer paid the bills. This acting head of the Hawks was determined to be bias, dishonest and lacking an integrity and honour. Today, he has a relative junior preside that the Hawks appointment for position higher than his own.

 

He brags he is carrying out a political mandate and appoints his preferred candidates even though some of them have failed dismally in the positions they currently hold. The Minister paid R13 million to get rid of the head of the Hawks because he called for the Nkandla files and how much more was paid for the 73 page whitewash via a private law firm works man. He claimed he didn’t know. His brown mopping performance at the gala presentation of his personal production Nkandla the movie has won is not an Oscar, which he surely deserved, but international deresion, how much to the fire pool clip an orchestral mood music cost us.

 

Taxpayer money was used when DA members were shot with water cannas leaking to the ground and assaulted at the opening of Parliament. Police have been deployed into this very Chamber twice with the SABC cameras collie raising their lenses to the Speaker, while they then allowed the country to watch them trampled on the Constitution. Millions are spent on salaries for hundred on suspensions. Our farmers and farm workers have been slaughtered daily in the most horrific manner and the SA Police Service, SABC, has a failed rural safety policy that no one in the SAPS takes seriously. The 1 448 convicted murderers and rapists will be promoted on this money, meanwhile our offices living slums and too divan. Dog Units are going to be visited by the Satellite Broadcasting and Communications Association, SBCA, are reported them today. Do you imagine the DA will support this vote? [Applause.]

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: Chairperson, let me give you a clear picture of what is the police we have today in South Africa. Police barrackses are being converted into office spaces by SAPS, leaving the poor constables, the students, the sergeants in the streets. The detectives at police stations are not remunerated accordingly. And allowance that must be paid to them after completing the detective learning programme was not authorised by the department.

 

No innovation is in place to link Home Affairs, Justice, Correctional Services and SAPS in order of the police to capture the first time offenders with a press of a button. Some police stations are still utilising so called Case Register, CR, system, after 21 years of dishing out money to SAPS annually. We refused to grant you our support to bully the police into beating up Members of Parliament and kill protesters, like they did in Marikana under your hand.

 

How can we support a budget with clear abuse of power, demonstrated in the instability of the Hawks, in which the Minister spends millions in his attempt to protect an individual Nkandla? How can we approve this budget when illegal arrest and brutality cost department at least R18,5 billion from civil litigation. What a shame! How can we approve a budget when it is clear that the police have been politisised to serve the interest of influential politicians? Until you take the police seriously, you give them barrackses; you give them allowances that are due to them, the IFF will never support this budget. [Applause.]

 

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, hoe word jy ’n kitsmiljoenêr in Suid-Afrika? Jy word ’n kader van die ANC; jy sluit by hulle aan; jy sorg dat jy ’n senior pos kry; dan begin jy een of ander ondersoek na die President van die land; en dan kry jy ’n goue handdruk. Dit is presies wat nou in die polisie gebeur het. Daar was ’n probleem met die hoof van die Valke Gen Anwar Dramat, en wat gebeur? Daar word net eenvoudig vir hom ’n goue handdruk gegee. So sien ons in Suid-Afrika dat baie senior bestuurders in ander departemente, wie in onguns verval met die regerende ANC, goue handddruke kry.

 

Die VF Plus sê vir die agb Minister van Polisie ... ek sien nie vir hom hier nie en ek sien ook nie die agb Adjunkminister van Polisie nie. Dit is ook totaal onaanvaarbaar dat nie die Minister of die Adjunkminister teenwoordig is as hul begrotingspos in die Parlement moet goedgekeur word nie. Dit wys eintlik die disrespek wat die twee agb Ministers teenoor hierdie instelling, die wetgewende liggaam, het.

 

Maar ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat hy nou kostes met die belastingbetalers se geld aangegaan het deur ’n ondersoek te laat doen in terme van die Onafhanklike Polisie Ondersoek Direktoraat, Opod, – dit is nou McBride se afdeling; en dan in terme van, of ’n verslag verander was of nie. Die bevinding is dat dit was verander, en dan moet daar nou opgetree word.

 

Nou sê ek vir u dat as Anwar Dramat skuldig is, kla hom aan en laat hy hof toe gaan. Ek wil vandag vir u sê dat as u ’n goue handdruk uitgee vir ’n persoon om hom stil te maak, dan maak u uself skuldig en is u medepligtig aan ’n misdryf, want dan beskerm u ’n misdadiger. Gee hom sy dag in die hof en hou op om goue handdrukke uit te deel. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

 

[Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, how do you become an instant millionaire in South Africa? You become a cadre of the ANC; you join them; you see to it that you get appointed to a senior position; then you start with one or the other sort of investigation into the President of the country; and then you receive a golden handshake. This is precisely what is happening in the police at the moment. There was a problem with the head of the Hawks, Gen Anwar Dramat, and what happened? He is simply being given a golden handshake. Similarly we note in South Africa that many senior managers in other departments, who had fallen out of favour with the governing ANC, are being given golden handshakes.

 

The FF Plus says to the hon Minister of Police ... I do not see him here and I also do not see the hon Deputy Minister here.  It is also totally unacceptable that neither the Minister nor the Deputy Minister is present when their budget votes need to be approved in Parliament. This actually shows the disrespect that these two hon Ministers display towards this institution, the legislative body.

 

But I want to say to the hon Minister that he has now incurred costs with the taxpayers’ money by initiating an investigation in terms of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, – that would be McBride’s section; and then in terms of whether or not a report was changed. The findings were that it had indeed been changed and that steps now have to be taken. 

 

Now I am telling you that if Anwar Dramat is guilty, charge him and let him have his day in court. I want to tell you today that if you give a person a golden handshake in order to keep him quiet, then you are incriminating yourselves and are you indeed an accessory to a crime, because then you are protecting a criminal. Let him have his day in court and stop handing out golden handshakes. I thank you.]

 

Mr M W MADISHA: Chair, it is a fact, we still await the release of the Marikana report and consider the Minister of Police’s absolution of the President in the Nkandla saga is beyond comprehension. Let us be quiet blunt. The Minister is out of his depth. He is excellent at whitewashing, but hopeless in providing leadership to the police.

 

What we have is a quasi-military police force, but not a police service. The use of the police in controlling protest is once again making the police the enemy of the people. Politicians, not the police must face the protesters. Professionalism is what we need to see. In the townships lawlessness prevails. Gangsters and mobsters hold sway there. People are screaming for help. The Minister, however, is deaf to those screams. Township residents are providing second by second information to facebook on where gangsters are meeting, and who is doing what. Even so, nothing happens. Without brilliant leadership, we will have merely 2 million serious crimes occurring in our country as happened. We cannot really therefore support this Vote.

 

Comrade Jeff, hon, you of course will understand what I am talking about. You are far from there. Thank you very much in the struggle.

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP would like to see police that are well paid and well trained. It is our wish to support the police budget every year because of the important work that the police are doing. In return, we expect excellent service, streets that are safer and a police service that is incorruptible.

 

When talking to ordinary people in the street, none agree that crime in South Africa is declining. Drug trafficking has definitely increased, children, some as young as 10 are addicted to drugs and causing havoc in their homes as they steal anything they can lay their hands on. Families are broken apart and crying for help because of their loved ones who are hooked on drugs.

 

Whenever we heard about drug bust by the police, it is mostly of young inexperienced dealers who are on the payroll of the big shots. And these big shots always get away. Even though, the ACDP would like to support this Budget Vote, especially as we want to see our police better paid. The ACDP cannot support this Vote until we see an improvement and the decline in crime. Thank you.

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, are we allowed to read newspapers in the House, particularly when the African speakers are speaking and when it is white speakers, the newspapers are put down? [Interjections.] Can you look at that please?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members ...

 

Dr C P MULDER: Hon House Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I would really ask you to ask the hon member to look around this whole Assembly and he will only see Africans. We are all Africans. [Applause.] I’m sick and tired of people referring to certain people as Africans and others are not. We are all Africans and I would suggest that you assist the member because members are allowed to read newspapers when they assist them to prepare for their speeches. It is in the Rules.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Hon members ...

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I stand on a point of order as I would like to take the matter a little bit further, if I may. We have had rulings in the House before that we do not allow racial stereotyping in the House. What the hon member has done, he should know better because he is a Whip, is a clear, blatant racial stereotyping and I would like to ask him to remove it. If you allow that to happen in the House today, I’m telling you now, Madam House Chair; there won’t be any peace in this House today. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, order! Hon members, it is true that members might like to get something from their newspapers so that they enhance their debates, but hon members, let us do it in a discreet way. Let us not show everybody that we are just not interested. [Interjections.] Okay, I’m still ruling. Hon members, it has been ruled before that you shouldn’t, okay? Hon Steenhuisen, it was ruled before that members should not read papers in the House. Now I am saying, for the reasons that you are bringing forth, I do understand, but let us be gentle about that. Hon members, listen; I’m done with the newspaper part and please let’s do what is correct.

 

Secondly, the members of this House are Africans and we all agree that we are Africans, hon Mulder. [Applause.] Everybody in the House is African. [Applause.] I don’t see any difference in my ... hon members, please.

 

Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, House Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please allow me. Hon Radebe, would you please stand? When you referred to an African member, were you referring to race? [Interjections.]

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, all the people who came here were Africans. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon House Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me conclude on the issue of Africans. Can I conclude before you come in?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, before ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m not done. Can I conclude? Hon members, as I expected, every member as I said when I started in this House, is an African and that’s why I wanted clarity from the hon member. The clarity has been sought and it is clear that he was not referring to a particular race. [Interjections.] As such, we continue. Thank you.

 

Ms M T KUBAYI: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can I allow hon Eesthuisen and I will recognise you?

 

Ms M T KUBAYI: I have stood before hon Eesthuisen [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, sorry for that.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, I must vehemently disagree with what you have just said. If you look at the annotated digest of rulings over several rulings, there has been a strong line technique into racial stereotyping. What the hon member said, and perhaps you need to look at Hansard to get the full text because he spoke about Africans and whites.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is it? Okay.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It is racial stereotyping.

I also want to place on record that I am getting the sense that the opposition parties have been victimised. Yesterday when I raised a point of order when that Minister was on her cellphone while the House was in session, it was glossed over. A member opens a newspaper to get an article that he wants to refer to later in his Budget Vote speech and now suddenly he is picked on as a transgression. We need to be consistent when you make ruling to the House. You can’t allow the Minister to get away with being on a cellphone and then you take selective action against the member for looking in the newspaper.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately, you’ve got me wrong. I never took a selective action. [Interjections.] On the issue of saying he said Africans and talked about white, I did not hear the white part and as such I will consult the Hansard and rule accordingly. Thank you.

 

Ms M T KUBAYI: House Chairperson, I think there have been, since we started, threats that have been thrown and I think it is unfair and out of order. Two hon members stood up and made threats. When I allowed you to finish because I stood up earlier on, but allowed you to finish ruling, I thought you will cover that part because I don’t think, in the spirit of continuing with the debate, somebody can stand up and say this House will be ungovernable. You did not include it in your ruling.

 

Members must, at least, be decent because if you are going to rule on something, that process must be allowed. If all of us are going to stand and say something will happen here, what will happen to this House? I think all of us deserve to be here, equally all of us must be respected and if a ruling is going to be made, it must be given. I think members must really afford everybody an opportunity and therefore, not pass threats because no one is amputated.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon member. On top of the ruling that I’ve already made, your point has been noted.

 

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Waters.

 

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, when the hon Whip of the ANC asked whether it is parliamentary for members to read the newspaper while African speakers are speaking, he implied that certain people in this House are not Africans. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon ...

 

Mr M WATERS: No, no, I haven’t finished. You didn’t interrupt the previous speaker, so please allow me to finish, Chair. Can I continue? The fact that hon Whip said the word “African” implies and he sees members on this side of the House as non-African. For him to get up and mislead this House and I would say deliberately mislead this House and say he sees everyone as Africans is disingenuous and I believe you should make him withdraw those racist remarks. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Waters, I don’t disagree with you and with the last part that you added, I said we will listen to the Hansard. That is what I said because the first time I was only concentrating on the African part, but thank you for that. We will listen to the Hansard and come back to it.

 

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you hon Chairperson ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order hon Members! moya fatshe.

 

Mr M A MNCWANGO: The IFP supports the budget; however we would like to raise some issues around the budget itself because we currently see a police force with extremely low moral, which has resulted in a number of resignations, early retirement and sometimes a lot of senior people in the police force asking for medical boarding.

 

We ask ourselves why, and the answer is plain to see, there are no leaders across the divisions, whether there be crime intelligence or the hawks or even Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, We see leadership being suspended and suspended on full pay. Hon Chairperson, the said ship appears to be rudderless, floating aimlessly amidst a sea of increasing criminality. The Minister must roll up his sleeves we believe, get to work and restore order to this department.

 

Our police services are also skewed in terms of man power and resources when comparing our rural areas to our towns or cities. Police stations are located in peril urban and urban areas. And very few are to be found in rural areas where the majority of our people actually reside. The result is that crime goes largely unreported in the rural areas with citizens having little or no protection at all against criminal elements in their communities, so this must be urgently addressed.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you the hon Chairperson. Hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon colleagues, the budget allocation for police is the second highest allocation made within the overall budget after social development. This indicates just how high policing is prioritised, it’s also a reflection of the ramp and crime which is maintaining it’s early grip in South Africa year after year.

 

The NFP welcomes the integrated justice system which will identify criminals with previous records upon arrests. The people of South Africa have a right to be protected and living in a safe environment without any fear as enshrined in the constitution. Whilst crime is rampant, we must acknowledge the success by our dedicated and committed civil servants who risks their lives daily to protect us. We call on the department to protect our many officers, ensure that those found guilty of killing or maiming our officers face the full might of the law.

 

We further call on government to ensure our police officers are well remunerated and enjoy all benefits accordingly. Hon Chairperson many officers complain about not being promoted or being marginalised, we call on the department to attend to this and address this challenges that some of our diligent officers face.

The NFP takes note to the fact that the department does face challenges; however, the NFP is concerned for the high amount spent on civil claims against the state. The increase in spending on compensation of employees is noted however the NFP calls on the department to accelerate the process of recruiting members from tertiary institutions and ensuring that policing forms part of the school curriculum to attract members with a passion for policing rather than those willing to take on any form of employment. The NFP calls on government to direct bursaries and National Student Financial Aid Scheme (NFSAS) funding accordingly. The NFP supports this Budget Vote 23.

 

Mr F BEUKMAN: Chairperson, the ANC supports Vote 23 the police to ensure that through effective policing the South African Police Service (SAPS) prevent, combat and investigate crime, maintain public order, protect and secure the inhabitants of South Africa and their property and abide and enforce the law. The National Development Plan’s (NDP) vision for building safer communities read with outcome three of government medium terms strategic framework, all people in South Africa feel safe, provide for the strengthening of the criminal justice system and the professionalization of the police service.

 

These are key priorities. Critical to this ideal is the effective utilisation of resources in the programs of visible policing and detective services. The execution of a pro active and responsive police service model is key to discourage and prevent priority crimes. The bulk of the allocation of 76 million will be spent in these two programmes. Spending pattern will aim to reduce the number of serious crimes to the implementation of sector policing at all stations, crime prevention operations in the hotspots and enhancing training for detectives and forensics specialists.

 

We had seven speakers from other parties, they spoke here today. Four of them raised issues that should have been raised under other budget votes. One item was raised that can be mentioned, the issue of the head of the hawks that issue must be addressed in the next six month. But what is a pity is that none of the parties raised the issue of the other programmes, all the issues they raised are in programme one.

 

There is no support for programme five. Programme five also includes the members of SAPS that assist us here in the National Assembly. It’s a pity that the members of the other parties were not open to support them. Part of the other priority is increasing the number of reported crimes, reported for the unlawful possession of and dealing in drugs. Increasing the implementation of the pillars of rural safety strategy for police stations from 515 to 882 and also to ensure there is an increase in the mobile contact points and rural safety priorities The ANC supports this budget vote.

 

Question put

 

CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, these Africans and the DA calls for a division. [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 201: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, P J; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Mulder, P W A; Mulder, C P; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 24: Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.

 

Declarations of Vote:

Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, this department plays an incredibly role to ensure food security to its 53 million South Africans. South Africa is currently considered a food-secure nation. According to a report by Oxfam, the reality is that, despite some progress since the birth of democracy in 1994, one in four people currently suffers hunger on a regular basis, and more than half of the population lives in such precarious circumstances that they are at risk of going hungry. The number of people facing hunger in South Africa can be estimated at 13 million in total.

 

The main focus of this Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries seems to be to report to Parliament that they have spent the budget. They are consistently reporting on how much of the budget has been spent, without achieving any of its set targets, or not achieving the targets set. With this objective in mind, they could not even reach the target of spending the budget! For this reason, Treasury announced a budget cut of R309 million this financial year.

 

It is therefore of big concern that this department is unable to properly report on spending patterns.

 

The Department of Monitoring and Evaluation also found that information provided to them cannot be backed up by facts. We all know of chicken houses, piggeries and vegetable gardens standing unused everywhere. The reason for this is because this department focuses on spending the budget, and not on the outcomes of the budget. Therefore, the DA will not support this budget.

 

Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon Chairperson, South African agriculture has been declining steadily over the past few decades. From having 120 000 farmers in 1950, this country now has fewer than 37 000 farmers. Most of the farmers have been suffocated out of the system because they simply cannot compete with cheap agricultural products imported from other countries.

 

The ANC government fails to understand the very simple fact that agriculture is a very sensitive and fragile sector. You must protect it and subsidise it if you are serious about ensuring the nation’s food sovereignty. If you do not subsidise and protect your agriculture, your smallholders will be snuffed out of the system, leaving only the most capitalised farmers to compete.

 

The result of this, Minister — the Minister is not here, I see — is that we now have 37 000 farmers producing 90% of our food needs. The rural inhabitants produce only 10% of our food, through smallholder and subsistence agriculture.

 

It is precisely because of this that we import even the most outrageous of products. This government has now removed the restriction on importation of chicken from the United States, opening up the floodgates of US chicken to our shores and signalling disaster for our own chicken farmers.

 

This department has become the latter day tool for the continuation of apartheid practices in as far as state forests are concerned. Acquired through a process of dispossession, these forests were used by the apartheid regime to further alienate black people from their land. The ANC-led government continues where the apartheid government left off by denying people access to the land and even in instances where they lodged successful land claims as in Dwese in the Eastern Cape, they then use these forests are enrichment resources for corrupt and dishonest forestry monopolies, backed by senior ANC politicians, letting them pay just R1,50 per hectare.

 

The ANC is the enemy of progress in agriculture and fisheries.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, your time has expired.

 

Mr R PAULSEN: We will not accept this Budget Vote until you decriminalise perlemoen [abalone] ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, your time is up!

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, the IFP does support this Budget Vote because, if agriculture doesn’t work, our people are going to go hungry. The poorest of the poor are struggling on a daily basis with the realities of hunger and the threat of food insecurity.

 

But, quite frankly, having said that, the department now needs to move beyond the rhetoric. We remember when the Deputy Minister of Agriculture was appointed he went on a long journey to say that we are going sexify agriculture, and that we are going to draw people into agriculture. Rhetoric after rhetoric after rhetoric! Quite frankly, it has not materialised. Nothing has happened. And we know that the current Minister and Deputy Minister inherited a department that was in total disarray. It was in absolute chaos and had been brought to its knees by the previous Minister. So that is also a legacy issue. But is is not reason enough for them to move at such a slow pace in addressing the issues of agriculture.

 

We want to say that the slow-paced responses and interventions to crises like drought confronting agriculture on the farms does not bode well for the growth of the agricultural sector in particular and for economic growth in general. Such slow-paced responses are a threat to job security because, if we continue to have a situation where farms become non-productive, it will lead to job losses.

 

Of course we know that a government that continues to fail to create jobs definitely cannot afford job losses.

 

Moreover, the fact that 95% of the agricultural output of South Africa is produced by only 3% of the farms is a problem on its own. So, until such time that we arrive at yet again another logical conclusion and a working environment in which we address these issue where all farming industries are working at full functionality, then we run the risk of food security — which is already a threat to our country. Thank you. [Time expired.]

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Chair, the department must ensure sustainable living for our people, must ensure food security, and make farming a business.

 

This means that if the department wants to achieve its goals, then there must be dedication. There must be no time for laziness, no time for too much talking. Equally important, there should be no unauthorised expenditure and no wasteful expenditure.

 

This budget must go directly to where it is intended to go.

 

Inasmuch as we support the budget, the NFP hopes it will be used in a manner that creates jobs in the farming sector, in a manner that fights hunger and poverty, and above all, in a manner that develops rural communities to a level that everyone there enjoys life and prevents them from loving to the overcrowded cities of this country.

 

We used to see agricultural officers visiting farmers in rural areas. That must happen. They must go there to mentor farmers and coach them in rural areas. We used to see agri-researchers in deep rural areas. That must happen as well.

 

As we have said, we support this budget.

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Chairperson, the UDM support the budget, but the department needs to take care of the following.

 

Policies and charters are there, but they are not being implemented. This needs to be corrected.

Forestry land is shrinking, mainly due to mining. That is a threat to the department.

 

The country needs to know what tonnage will be produced this year as a percentage of what South Africa consumes annually. I’m talking in the context of food. The department needs to engage the Department of Water Affairs so that applications for new afforestation can be fast-tracked. Currently, such applications take too long and the delays hamper development.

 

The programmes that we see are no more than just being sporadic and spasmodic, with no noticeable impact. Serious concerns surround appropriate staffing within the department. There are no results showing steady farmer progression to full commercial status.

 

However, if the department were to take good care of these concerns I have just expressed, I believe that the food security situation would be much improved. Thank you.

 

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ons kan nie die landboubegrotingspos bespreek en a besluit oor neem, as ons nie ook kyk na grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika nie.

 

Die agb Minister van Grondhervorming is hierso. Ek weet die agb Minister van Landbou is siek. Maar ek wil dit ook op rekord stel dat dit nou die tweede keer is dat die Adjunkminister van Landbou nie teenwoordig is as die pos bespreek word nie. Hy is meer in die buiteland en lyk my meer bekommerd oor wat daar aangaan as wat in Suid-Afrika aangaan.

 

Die boere van Suid-Afrika vra nie bevoorregting nie. Die boere van Suid-Afrika vra nie gunste en gawes nie. Die boere van Suid-Afrika vra sekerheid. Hulle wil sekerheid hê oor hulle grond. Hulle wil sekerheid hê dat, as hulle ontwikkel en vooruitgang maak, hul bates en dit waarmee hulle besig is, beskerm sal word. Dan kan die regering nie kom en aankondig dat daar beperkinge geplaas gaan word op plaasgrootes afhangend van watter bepaalde kategorie jy is nie. Dìt skep onsekerheid by die landbou. Dìt, op die ou einde, laat die boere besluit om te sê, ek gaan nie uitbrei nie, ek gaan nie méér kos produseer nie, ten spyte daarvan dat die bevolking van Suid-Afrika groei. Dan skep u ook voedselonsekerheid in Suid-Afrika.

 

Die VF Plus beskou hierdie poste gesamentlik. Ons sal nie hierdie pos ondersteun nie, en ons sal ook nie Pos 39 — Landelike Ontwikkeling en Grondhervorming — ondersteun nie. Want, as ons dit ondersteun, vat ons die land in ’n rigting wat nadelig is en voedselsekerheid bedreig. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

 

[Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, we cannot discuss and make a decision on the agriculture budget vote if we do not look at land reform in South Africa.

 

The Hon Minister of Land Reform is here. I know the Hon Minister van Agriculture is ill. But I also want to put it on record that this is now the second time that the Deputy Minister of Agriculture is not present when the vote is being discussed. He spends more abroad and seems more concerned about what is going on there rather than in South Africa.

 

The farmers of South Africa are not asking to benefit more. The farmers of South Africa are not asking for favours and gifts. The farmers of South Africa are asking for certainty. They want to have certainty about their land. They want to have certainty that, if they develop and prosper, their assets and that which they are busy with will be protected.

 

Then the government cannot come and announce that the size of farms will be limited based on which category you are in. This creates uncertainty in agriculture. This, in the end, is what causes the farmer to say, I am not going to expand, I am not going to produce more food, despite the fact that the population of Africa is growing. Then you also create food insecurity in South Africa.

 

The FF Plus considers these votes together. We will not support this vote, and neither will we support Vote 39 — Rural Development and Land Reform. Because if we support this, we will take this country in a negative direction that threatens food security. Thank you.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, Cope will not support this Vote because the department has not put climate change at the apex of its priorities.

 

Further reasons ... Climate change is here. Our country is at a millennium crossroads. Scientific predictions are that weather patterns are going to change considerably. Rainfall will increase extensively in some places and cause flooding. It will diminish elsewhere and cause prolonged droughts. We are about to see the emergence of a new climate.

 

A proactive department, supported by good quality research will alert farmers in good time so that they can change their course and survive into the future, thus guaranteeing food security.

 

There is a tendency to see climate change as less threatening than earthquakes. That is a very serious mistake. That mistake is happening here, in our country. The area now called the Sahara desert, for example, was a fertile green belt for 4 000 years. Today it is a giant desert.

 

Pollution is threatening sea live. The acidification of the ocean because of excess carbon dioxide in the air is also threatening extinction of species.

Cope believes that our government today is not looking at all these, and we therefore cannot support. [Time expired.]

 

Mr N T GODI: Hon House Chair, agriculture is the primary industry. We all had lunch today thanks to a farmer. Therefore it is important that this Budget Vote be supported by everyone in the House to ensure that the important work of guranateeing food security in our country goes ahead.

 

Equally important is the process of reversing the legacy of the 1913 Land Act to ensure that the majority of our people have access to not only to land, but also to farming land. That is why the APC supports government programmes that seek to support emerging farmers, especially through the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, CASP, which is financed to the tune of about R2 billion annually.

 

However, our concern is on the accountability and the effective use of these transfers by provinces. During recent engagement with Parliament by the department, it became clear that, inasmuch as they pump money annually, they are also not equally certain about how effectively this money is being used.

 

So, we therefore call upon the department to ensure that money given to provinces is used to actually fulfil this important responsibility.

 

Lastly, the APC is concerned that this Parliament, a couple of years ago, passed a resolution on marine living resources, only to find that that, this year, the same problems that were dealt with and on which we resolved, have not changed. We call on the department to ensure that the inefficiency, the corruption and the patronage are addressed so as to ensure that the majority of our people, especially coastal communities, are able to benefit from the resources that accrue from the oceans. [Time expired.]

Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Chair, you know Sobukwe will wake up from the grave if I don’t speak on this one. [Interjections.] Let me rather remind this House that the contradiction between the oppressed and the oppressor was the land issue. So, up until such time where this land will be restored back to it rightful owner, it is only then that we will at least be talking. The PAC supports this Budget Vote, obviously, because it benefits the poor of the poorest. [Applause.]

 

However, the PAC has the following concerns: We have limited access to both fishing rights and on land. There is lack of shares in the mining industry for the unskilled labour. There is lack of empowerment for farm workers - many Africans are still being used as slaves, obviously. They are kept fit physically while being paralysed mentally and emotionally. Their salaries hardly meet their basic needs of living such as food, let alone education needs for their children. Their health and safety is not taken seriously. They have no guarantee of decent retirement packages like other employees.

 

These are some of the issues of concern, for example the case of the De Doorns where people are without ownership of arable land. They are helpless and they cannot eradicate poverty and inequality. Thank you.

Mr C H M MAXEGWANA: House Chair, agriculture remains one of the sectors that offer the real possibility for massive job creation and the revival of rural economy. The ANC has identified this as one of the strategic productive sectors of the economy. In order to ensure the realisation of this priority, the ANC has correctly identified increased investment in rural infrastructure that supports production and market opportunities as key.

 

The NDP clearly outlines the role that agriculture and agro-processing sectors ought to play in the revitalisation of the rural economy. The contribution of agriculture to South Africa’s economy is not only important for economic growth but also for food security and job creation through bringing underutilised land in communal areas into commercial production, increasing land under irrigation and supporting commercial production in areas that have potential for higher growth and unemployment.

 

The ANC government has responded to these national priorities with plans outlined in the agricultural policy action plan, Apap. Apap proposes spatial economic plans and guiding government investment infrastructure, land acquisition, training, production and other support through a value chain approach, targeting priority commodities identified in the National Development Plan.

 

One of the Nine-point plans announced by President Jacob Zuma is the revitalisation of agriculture. The ANC supports Budget Vote No 24. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Question put.

 

Division demanded.

 

AYES – 209: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof , G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, P J; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Mulder, P W A; Mulder, C P; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

APPROPRIATION BILL

 

(Consideration of Votes and Schedules)

 

Vote 25 - Economic Development – put.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I now put Vote 25: Economic Development. Are there any objections?

 

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

 

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, National Freedom Party, Congress of the People, African Peoples Convention, and African National Congress.

 

Declarations:

Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, our GDP has dropped further to 1,3% with no end insight and unemployment is approaching 40% of which two thirds are young people, many of them successful graduates. As we speak the tourism, construction, agricultural and other industries are experiencing crisis due to ANC’s policy confusion and a lack of empathy with the realities of these and related industries. This is echoed by the relevant industries; not just the DA.

 

South Africa deserves urgent economic development interventions and turnaround plans to be implemented in various sectors, without delay, if we want to achieve a GDP of above 1,5%. However, we have no indications on how this budget will unblock these challenges; nor any expectations that much will be done about this.

 

Surely, this budget does not represent value for money, and does not give a plan to restore investors’ confidence. Surely, taxpayers expect from us not to support a budget that will evidently not deliver on the mandate of this department. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mnu M S MBATHA: Sihlalo, phambilini sake sasho-ke ukuthi asikho isidingo salo Mnyango. Izizumbulu zezimali ezinikezwa lo Mnyango sibona ukuthi zingasebenza kangcono uma ngase zisize kakhulukazi ekuqiniseni izinhlaka ezithile zika-DTI njengoba kwakunjalo kwasekuqaleni. Sikholelwa ekutheni futhi ukuthi okukhulunywa ngakho la ukudidiyela nokuhlanganisa ukwenza kwezinto zikahulumeni akulona iqiniso ngoba vele uhulumeni wayekwazi ukuzenzela zonke lezi zinto phambilini. Imali engaka ukuthi ibekelwe uMnyango osuneminyaka engaphezulu kweyishumi kodwa ungakaze ukwazi ukuthi ubeke etafuleni ukuthi yikuphi okuqale ngawo futhi nokufike nawo.

 

Okunye mhlawumbe ukuthi-ke kuyabonakala ukuthi uNgqongoqshe uPatel unalo ithalente usengenziwa iphini likaDavies, bese umhlonishwa uMasina angabi umhlonishwa abe yimeya laphaya Ekurhuleni ngoba vele usengusihlalo we-ANC. Asisale sesiyiqhuba le nto. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

 

[Mr M S MBATHA: House Chairperson, we have stated this before, there is no need for this department. A lot of money that is given to this department can be better utilised to beef up some of the DTI frameworks as it was before. We believe that everything that is said here about integrating government programmes is not true because government was able to do all these things before. A lot of money gets allocated to the department that has more than ten years but has not presented what it has started or came with.

 

Another thing is that, it is clear that Minister Patel is talented, he can be made Minister Davies’s deputy and Masina can be a mayor Ekurhuleni and not an hon member because he is now the chairperson of the ANC. Let us just carry on with this. [Laughter.]]

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Chairperson, our economy is ailing; some might say even critically so. The question which now comes to mind is: What strategic plans does the Economic Development Department, EDD, have in place to hold the decline in our economic growth and to turn it around to place our economy on a positive growth path?

 

The NFP believes that the department urgently needs to address issues such as: The widening gap between the rich and the poor; the increasing rise in unemployment; the lack of rural development; and the derailment of black economic empowerment.

 

If this is not done, we will continue to experience an economic decline in South Africa. More and more people will be unemployed, and more people will rely on grants for economic survival. Lack of positive economic growth is a real threat to democracy and the NFP urges the Economic Development Department to urgently address the economic decline to avert a major socioeconomic catastrophe in South Africa.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, with ever-increasing unemployment, inequality, poverty and the economy that is stagnating, we are failing miserably in respect of economic development. The corporate, we all know, are sitting on a pile of money. Their reluctance to invest comes from policy uncertainty, corruption in government and its failure to make and manifest the rule of law. [Interjections.]

 

Our education – yes, black bags – our education is also not providing the skills needed and crime is rampant. [Interjections.] It is the patent and visible failure of government. However, that is the primary impediment to growth. For so long as government beliefs its own propaganda; so long economic development will stall.

 

The government has failed in getting all spheres of government to roll out infrastructure development with speed, expertise and without procurement corruption. All else is therefore futile. There is no growth and no opportunity for the creation of descent jobs. In fact the country is about to witness massive job shedding. For this reason, as Cope, we can’t support this Budget Vote.

 

I mean, if joblessness has gone beyond 40%, our people are actually dying in this country. There are very serious problems when we talk about corruption.  I hope government will look into this very seriously. Thank you.

 

Mr N T GODI: Hon Chair, the APC supports the Budget Vote ... [Applause.] ... and our take, Comrade Minister, is that we perpetually talk about inequality, unemployment and the rest. The perspective of the APC is that the experience of the 21 years cannot be refuted, unless government actively participates in the economy. These challenges that we inherited from the past will remain with us.

 

The reality is that the percentage of the role or the stake of government in the economy is too low to bring about the kind of transformation that we need. I am sure that even capitalist, Rodas, will agree that private capital has failed our people.

 

Unless government - on behalf of the people, elected by the people - is able to step in, and your department plays a critical and central role in defining and driving the government’s participation in the economy, we will remain with the challenges that we have. The capitalist’ focus is merely on economic growth using the trickle-down theory, which we know does not work, and will not work for the poverty of our people.

 

So, for us to effect substantive economic transformation, the government must boldly - without fear - step into the realm of the economy, and ensure that it has a much higher stake in the economy to be able to give effect to the kind of changes that would create the employment that we need and reduce the inequalities that we have inherited.

 

We might appear to have assumed that they are normal. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

Ms E M COLEMAN: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote ... [Interjections.] ... because the department’s strategic objectives are on the right track. The department has very clear and well-defined key performance indicators, which according to us are continuing to enhance their co-ordination and intervention responsibilities. We saw that programmes have been streamlined into three strongly focused areas for increased efficiency and effective purposes.

 

We feel that the synergy between the work of Innovative Technology Enterprise Solutions, Itec, and the competition authorities, which has been brought about by the work that has been done by the Ministry in the work of the Itec, will help in creating a competitive business environment whilst ensuring protection of nascent industries. They are very good for job creation and investment in the economy.

 

It is not the negative statements and continuous criticism of government’s programmes and plans that will ensure growth and development in our economy, but we believe it is a country’s shared vision on economic growth path and trajectory that will see to it that we encourage people to come and invest. We also encourage those that are still growing up - the youngsters - to participate and create more jobs that are necessary ... [Time expired.]

 

Vote 25 – Economic Development - put again.

 

Objections recorded.

 

Voting.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 209: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shaik Emam, A M; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 83: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Ross, D C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Front dissenting).

 

Vote 26 – Energy – put.

 

Declarations:

Mr W HORN: Hon House Chairperson, the Department of Energy is exceptional. Amongst its competitor Ministries, it is nearly unrivalled. In the race to the bottom, the Department of Energy demonstrate a particular talent for underachievement. But if it were not so destructive to the country, it will be almost breathtaking to watch.

 

This department and together with its state-owned entities, SOEs, has so many acting officials, from an acting director-general to acting CEOs and acting board members that even the Academy Awards is contemplating the addition of a category for best actor or actress in a South African department of state or state-owned entity.

 

If the House thinks my attempted humour is poor, I am sad to report that the department’s performance is even poorer. Against 38 performance target in the second quarter of the previous financial year, only 13% or in a polling, 21% were actually met. Against 33 performance targets in the third quarter, only seven were full met. Fourth quarter performance have no doubt confirmed that the department has failed to meet even 40% of its performance target for the past financial year. I suppose if 40% equals a pass rate for South African matriculants, then the same could consider be applied to the Department of Energy, but passing is simply not enough.

 

The department dismal performance is, according to Fitch, the single biggest stumbling block to address the energy crisis which engulfs our nation and which undermines economic growth and destroys jobs.

 

Critical interventions by the department are extending and had been so in some cases for almost five years. Minister, where is the Integrated Energy Plan, the Revised Integrated Resource Plan, the Gas Utilisation Master Plan, the Gas Amendment Bill. I could go on. The answer is simple, they are missing, in action, the elite Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson.

 

Perhaps the Minister should spend less time in Russia and more time in providing the necessary leadership to her department. Her myopic view on the new nuclear build programme, which does nothing to solve our immediate energy crisis is prolonging the energy shortage and harming the country. As such, the DA will surely not be supporting the department’s budget ... [Time expired.]

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION: On a point of order, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Who’s ...

 

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: On a point of order. [Interjections.] It is parliamentary for members or hon members to just stand there when the House is actually in session? [Interjections.] Isn’t that disrespectful of the proceedings of the House? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order! Order, hon members! All members in the House must still be respectful so that the debate can proceed.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon House Chair, the EFF rejects this Budget Vote. The reality is that this department is leaderless. The Deputy Minister comes to the committee and says that a storage facility will employ 21 000 people, that really gives a sign of being clueless. It is a sign that she has never even seen a storage facility in terms of how it operates. The Central Energy Fund, Cef, is a holding company of all the subsidiaries under the Department of Energy, Minister. All these companies are dysfunctional. Their boards are useless. There is nothing that is happening there. Minister, there are four key pillars of running an effective company. Marketing, human resource and operations must be there as part of those things.

 

PetroSA is soon getting a pool of debt and it is declaring huge losses but it is busy signing agreements with multinational companies - giving away the future of energy of this country, which is oil and gas. All our offshore 18:59: acreages has been signed off to multinational companies, from Canada, Italy and as far as India. Minister, the National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, is busy approving licenses of storages facilities without proper detailed research.

 

When they finish doing that they bring it to the committee so that the committee can endorse everything that has already been approved. Minister, we want to know where the funding for nuclear energy will come from because the reality is that this government is that what they do, they approve the funding and make a U-turn and ask the residents of this country to pay for the funding like they did with the e-tolls. The EFF rejects this budget.

 

Mr N T GODI: Hon House Chair, every time we speak about the energy crisis or energy challenges in the country, it is more about, and correctly so, how it impacts on the economy and how those who have access to this energy like electricity suffer from load shedding. Without a thought being given to that, about 15% of our people who have had no access as yet to electricity, we believe as the APC that as a country we need to be bold enough to set ourselves goals of ensuring that every South African has access to electricity.

 

Such access, simple as it appear to be, can fundamentally change the quality of life of any household - from their ability to own a television and have access to information about other countries and a whole range of other information and from being able to buy and store food in bulk which, in the absence of a refrigerator, they are not able to.

 

As the APC we want to make a call that as we seek to address our energy challenges, a thought must be put in ensuring that every South African has access to electricity. I thank you.

 

Mr N SINGH: Hon House Chairperson, our energy seems to be sapping. We have only done six votes in two hours but notwithstanding that, I rise on behalf of hon Esterhuizen, who sits on this committee and who is unwell at the moment. His declaration refers more to the policy side of what the department should be doing.

 

It is paramount that our policies in the energy sector start to incorporate climate change and other environmental issues as this will increasingly begin to impact and dominate the development of the global energy sector. Our transition to a low-carbon economy will need to be carefully managed as a provision of a secure affordable energy is fundamental to our future economic growth and social development.

 

In this regard we agree and support calls for a full understanding of the opportunities and projects that promotes synergies between the policies of energy environment and climate.

 

The opportunity to invest in research and development of clean energy technologies has never been so great. We must support innovation in this sector with our market and regulatory framework positively and unseen environments condusive to attracting the required levels of investments.

 

Finances have to be directed into increased A & D Innovation and reusable energy technology. The IFP will support this budget.

 

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon House Chair, some of the reasons the ACDP will not support this vote include the Eskom issue which is being allowed to escalate unabated and the building of more nuclear power stations at horrendous costs financially and others. We believe that this decision which goes against global trends is not based on available information. There is a fact that fracking-related activities are continuing before the relevant assessments have been completed. Another decision that will come at a huge cost including air, soil and water pollution, toxic waste, damage to roads, displaced from agriculture and health implications.

 

This budget does not do enough to ensure sustainable solutions. Thank you.

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon House Chair, millions of people of this country, especially in rural areas are in dire need of energy resources that is for use and business purposes. The department has a huge and daunting task ahead of it. The country faces huge energy crisis. The crisis at Eskom has added more weight to this crisis. The department set itself goals of diversifying the energy generation mix improving the quality and security petroleum fuels and increasing household access to electricity and yet Cabinet approve a reduction of R561, 1 million to be effective over the medium-term and that is a problem.

 

The government wants to have 875 000 household electrified over the medium-term. The NFP has yet to see whether transfer to Eskom and municipalities will really help more household getting electricity. Most of the household in rural areas have numbers marked as if they will get electricity and it has taken a long time. The department has to ensure that they get electricity because they are in dire need of this electricity.

 

Abantu abaningi banezinombolo emizini yabo isikhathi eside kodwa abanawo ugesi. I-NFP ithi abantu abafakelwe ugesi bangajatshuliswa yizinombolo ezikade zafika emizini yabo kodwa ugesi bengakawutholi. Kunjalo nje ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Most people have had numbers marked at their homes for a long time but they don’t have electricity. The NFP says that people must be provided with electricity, do not let them be excited over marked numbers that have been on their homes for a while without actually getting electricity. It is so ...]

 

The NFP will support this budget.

 

Mr F Z MAJOLA: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC support this Budget Vote No 26. All of us in this House agree that energy is the most binding constraint to economic growth and development. It is imperative and incumbent on all of us who are serious about this pressing challenge facing our country to support this budget.

 

The Department of Energy will roll out electrification to 1,4 million households, many of them, 75% in rural areas in the next five years. Now, the Africans that side should support this programme to roll out ... [Interjections.] ...  this electricity to 75% of our people in rural areas. We have agreed, hon member, that we will provide induction for the EFF. Nersa doesn’t need permission from the committee to grant licences. The induction is still pending. So, we will induct you because you have just arrived in the committee and you don’t understand how the committee operates. The ANC support this Budget Vote so that we can move South Africa forward. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I put the vote again.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I want to raise a point of order, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Is that a point of order?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Really, people from yellow unions don’t know anything about energy. [Interjections.] I think the ANC must take us serious ... [Interjections.] ... and give members who ... [Interjections.] ... yellow unions! [Interjections.] The House doesn’t know anything about unions, about energy and we are not going to be imposed and inducted by people ... [Interjections.] ... who come from yellow unions on how to deal with energy in the country.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I think that for all of us - it is important that when we raise a point of order, we do so. We are not allowed to debate matters that we would like to debate with our colleagues, either on policy or whatever, hon Ndlozi.

 

Vote 25 – Energy - put again.

 

Objections recorded.

 

Voting.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 205: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Brown, L; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

VOTE 27: Environmental Affairs – put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mnu T Z HADEBE: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, kunezinto esithe masizibuka njengeqembu le-DA sabona kubalulekile ukuba sizibalule uma sidingida udaba lwesabelomali soMnyango Wezimbiwa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr T Z HADEBE: Hon Chair, there are things that we saw necessary to mention as the DA when discussing this matter of the current budget allocation of the Department of Mineral Resources.]

 

The current funding allocation of the budget for climate change medication and adaptation is insufficient to meet our set targets for greenhouse gas reduction. There is no doubt that the international finance is necessary to complement the domestic investments in order to achieve our emission targets.

 

However, first and foremost, it is necessary to increase the national budget allocation to begin our transition towards a low-carbon economy. The expenditure of allocated budget should be achieving the department’s strategic objectives by putting money into sustainable utilisation of natural resources, conserving the environment and laying the foundation for future prosperity as the environment and economy are two sides of the coin. We need to ensure that there is adequate funding and support to attract the private sector to invest in the green economy. This lack of funding is in itself hindering the creation of thousands of jobs.

 

The DA calls on the Minister to strengthen the fight against the wildlife crime; we recognise that this is something that cannot be done by this department alone. Therefore it is essential to establish an interministerial committee to give this important matter the attention it deserve in the hope that this budget help the values of freedom, fairness and opportunity, the DA supports this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon Chairperson, the constitutional mandate of the Department of Environmental Affairs is to give effect to the rights of citizens to an environment that is harmful to their health and wellbeing and to have the environment protected for the benefit of the present and the future generations. This department advocates for us to continue investing in coal powered energy generation an activity that has devastating consequences for us and the future generations.

 

Despite warnings from credible scientific sources this department is adamant on its plans of shale gas fracking in the central Karoo. South Africa should invest more in electricity productions using wind and solar power. This one is especially for Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson; if we produce at least 50% of electricity with renewable energy we would create numerous jobs and significantly reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.

 

We must also tackle the environmental consequences of mining activities, such as acid mine drainage, the pollution of our already depleted ground water reserves and air pollution which affect the health of the nearby communities.

 

As the EFF we cannot support the budget that turns a blind eye to companies that continue breaking environmental laws for profit poisoning and killing our people in the process. The green economy must be the backbone of this department. As the EFF we will not support this budget. Thank you.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, I must say that more needs to be done. Part of environmental affairs is to monitor the performance or lack thereof by other entities of government, for example the sewage spills is very important and we need to check if that is being done here.

 

On 6 May 2015, the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration made a huge announcement. It revealed that the average concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere for the month of March across the globe has surpassed 400 parts per million, ppm. This was the first time ever this had happened since measurements began.

 

Now, what we need to check is whether we here have been able to do that or even for that. This is shocking news; if science is right and we believe it is the world has passed the tipping point. Carbon dioxide has increased in the atmosphere by about 24% since 1958 when scientists began to take measurements. Has the Minister been able to do that? We can go further on, and indicate that, for example, CO2 stays in the atmosphere for hundreds of years or even thousands of years. It is steadily turning our ... [Interjections.] I therefore want to say that perhaps we need to give ... [Time expired.]

 

Mr J M MTHEMBU: Chairperson, the ANC, obviously supports this Budget Vote. However, in response to hon Madisha there is a difference between environmental affairs and sanitation. We agree with members, again let us thank all the parties who support because if there is one department that has got working SOEs, it is this department. You to talk the South African national biodiversity institute it is there preserving our environment for future generations as you have said.

If you talk of some parts it is there preserving our parks, our lions, kudus, impalas for future generations including the rhinos. If you talk of Songimvelo Game Reserve - maybe before we even go there. We agree with members who say that if there is one threat to humanity that is human change, particularly the negative effect of climate change but our government of course, does have a climate change response policy we are dealing with this matter together with industry. We will reduce greenhouse emission in this country but not on our own but working together with industry. In fact, we are consulting with industry as we speak. We will not do this alone. We need to find a binding international agreement in Paris this year to reduce greenhouse emission. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much. I must say that sitting here I am smiling because I saw hon Maynier seeing his twin on the other side and starting to do the same gestures as hon Mthembu was speaking. And I heard new deployments made by the member of the EFF about the Cabinet reshuffle must be done earlier on; but having said that, I put the vote, again.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 279: Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Brown, L; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dunjwa, M L; Esau, S; Faku, Z C; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gana, S M; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mubu, K S; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Scheepers, M A; Selfe, J; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 11: Chewane, H; Dlamini, M M; Khawula, M S; Matlhoko, A M; Maxon, H O; Mbatha, M S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

VOTE 28 — Labour-put.

 

Declarations of Vote:

Mr M BAGRAIM: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA we will not be supporting the Labour Budget for the following reasons. The Department of Labour have hopelessly failed South Africa. The compensation fund has been ineffective for over a decade, and despite spending millions the fund has failed the weakest in South Africa. To carry on funding the weapons compensation fund is adding insult to injury.

 

Furthermore, despite acknowledgement by the Minister that the fund has failed South Africa, the Minister merely transfers the commissioner to another department. Others are suspended on full pay despite clear-cut cases against them. Another enormous shock to South Africa is that the Minister has earmarked R2,3 billion to spend over the next few years on investigation into, inter alia, the minimum wage.

 

Despite the fact that the Minister has made up her mind, we are just going to make the consultants rich. There have been cases of fraudulent expenditure in Nedlac, and again the department appears to have done nothing about it. The department is supposed to engender an environment to ensure job creation, but the very opposite has happened.

 

In this youth month of June, we note again and again that the departmental environment has created 50% unemployment for the youth of South Africa. Likewise, Nedlac has shown South Africa how ineffectual it is. Despite years of debate, the Parliament merely chooses to override any consensus that might have been reached. This is the world’s most expensive toy telephone. One might say that wonderland is the looking-glass of the Department of Labour.

 

Furthermore, the Department of Labour has been notorious in being wholly absent when this country is struck by massive strikes. We need only refer to the destructive and horrific strikes in the agricultural industry in the Western Cape where the department was nowhere to be seen. [Time expired.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chairperson, the EFF rejects Budget Vote-28. We see this department being neither with an intention to improve the unbearable working condition of the working class and the poor nor to advocate for the transfer of wealth to our people. Unemployment in this country currently sits at over 36% while youth unemployment is at over 65%.

We are sitting on a time bomb. [Interjection.] This department has been quiet on the De Doorns farmworkers who have not been compensated as per the 2012 settlement. What kind of a government is this that does not want to assist the poorest of the poor? This department has been quiet on the unfair labour practices used by labour brokers and other departments. But ...

 

... njalo uma sekuyiwa okhethweni siyababona ontabakayikhonjwa - okuyi-ANC nophiko lwayo lwabasebenzi i-Cosatu, ukuthi bazowazoqeda nya ngabaxhumanisi bemisebenzi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[... always when it is election time we see them - the ANC and its workers union, Cosatu, telling people that they will get rid of the labour brokers.]

 

... but where are they now? They are quiet. This department has turned its back on workers in this country, including the public sector that has been asking for a mere 10% wage increase. Even today ...

 

... abasebenzi be-Nehawu la ePhalamende, bebekade bebhikisha ... [... the Nehawu members, here in Parliament, have been protesting ...]

... outside. But where are the leaders? They are quiet. [Applause.] This department has not given the South African working class any reason to celebrate, and instead, maintain their exploitation. This government is exploiting workers and the poor. So, we reject this Budget.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, this is extremely painful. [Interjections.] And when I look across I see some amongst us who at some stage rose up to fight for the workers of South Africa, but today they are the people who are actually destroying.

 

Mining, manufacturing and agriculture were historically the main sectors able to create jobs in our country. However, recently mining and manufacturing have been shedding jobs at an alarming rate. The biggest creator of jobs, of course, has been the government itself. How did it achieve this? The government borrowed massively and the national debt increased from about 28% of the GDP to about 46%. Therefore, it is not surprising that the consolidated national and provincial wage Bill is over 40%.

 

I must say that it is painful today that the government does not even consider the structures that had been established to look after the workers like Nedlac, et cetera. The very many workers who are there, for example, working in restaurants, and so on, are not paid, but are surviving on tips. One has given an example of the workers here at Parliament. Some of them again, I want to re-emphasise, who serve you with food, drive you home, et cetera, are getting less than R3 000. This is extremely painful. And we purport here ... [Interjections.] ... You, the ANC, have sold out. You have sold out.

 

Mr N T GODI: Hon House Chairperson, as the APC, we are concerned that some of the institutions that serve vulnerable people are not as effective and as efficient as they should be. Case in point being the UIF, to some extent and very much so, the compensation fund which has for quite a long time failed to manage its activities in a manner that assists its clients.

 

We note, however, that from the beginning of June there is a new management in place with the previous management having been moved horizontally within the department. We hope that, having listened to the new director-general, the situation is going to be turned around. For, indeed, he sounded and appeared like a man who has a sense of what needs to be done and appreciation of the magnitude of the challenges at hand.

 

We would want to see the strengthening of the inspectorate within the department especially in relation to the abuse that farmworkers continue to suffer at the hands of farmowners - some of whom are sitting in this House - as well as those who work in the fisheries. It will be recalled that some years back there was a decision or resolution taken that there should be an investigation on the working conditions of those who are working in the fishing industry who also suffer horrendous working conditions, in some instances far much worse than even those of the farmworkers. The APC will support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Ms S R VAN SCHALKWYK: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. The reason why we support this Budget Vote is based on the good performance, irrespective of what other members are saying, of the Department of Labour and its entities in the advancement of the working conditions of the vulnerable workers, like your fishing, your farming and your construction workers.

 

Continuous efforts are being made by the department to address the imbalances created by our previous regime through the sectoral determinations instituted and soon the introduction of the national minimum wage. And we cannot shy away from the challenges in some of our entities like in the compensation fund. And we know, through the interventions already made by the newly appointed director-general, that this situation will be remedied soon

 

Surely the ANC would also welcome many more and better inspection and enforcement services to expose employers who some of them are treating workers like slaves and who are not abiding by the relevant labour legislations. And now we are sitting and speaking, like some of our members, about the Nedlac forensic audit report which we know very well would only be discussed and revealed to the committee on 17 June next week. So, we can’t sit or grandstand here and try to score cheap political points whilst we are not aware of the facts contained in this Nedlac report. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

We know, as the ANC, that we have a lot of challenges, but we also know that the commitment of the department ensures that it will be addressed very soon. Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 206: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Brown, L; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 85: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote No 29 – Mineral Resources – put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr J R B LORIMER: Madam Chair, the DA will not support this budget. There are too many Rules and there is too little budget to employ people to enforce them. Diamonds are a mess. The State Diamond Trader is not working and should be closed down. It’s blocking the efficient operation of the diamond market, and that means it’s blocking jobs.

 

The Diamond and Precious Metals Regulator has admitted that it is not doing its job properly. Some areas of the sector are heavily regulated, and others are apparently unregulated. This needs to be completely reformed.

 

The Council for Geoscience doesn’t get enough money. It does important work. It is not adequately supplied with the funds to do what it must do and can do to advance the industry.

 

But, most importantly, this budget is being presented in a legislative vacuum. It’s more than a year since the Bill, the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill, was passed and there is still no clarity about what is happening. It’s completely uncertain under what conditions mining and oil and gas investment can take place. While that condition prevails, there will be no more jobs. And the 50 000 mining jobs lost in the past three years will be only the beginning.

 

Underlying all this is one question: What is the point of spending all this money on regulation if that regulation and a lack of clarity about it are killing the industry, killing jobs and killing the economy? [Applause.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Chair, the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act empowers the Minister to withdraw all licences of mining companies that are not complying with the Act. Today, it’s a fact that all the mining companies are not complying with this Act and all the mining that is happening in this country is illegal. But our Minister is a coward and is scared of white people. He is allowing all these multinationals to use South Africa as their own playground. [Interjections.] The Mining Charter requires 26% ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, Chair. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order! Hon Radebe?

 

Mr B A RADEBE: The member has just uttered unparliamentary words by saying that the Minister is a coward. I think there was a ruling around that. [Interjections.] I think it must be dealt with. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Hon member, the order is indeed sustained. Could you please withdraw?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Chair, I thought I was here when that order was ruled and ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: ... and it was saying coward and spineless in that order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: I said “coward” only.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you please withdraw?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Is that a new one?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Just withdraw.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Okay. Chair, I am withdrawing.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): He has withdrawn.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is a ruling of this House when a member from this dying organisation said, “Members of Parliament are cowards and spineless.” Why is it that when it’s said by a member of the EFF you say now that it’s out of order? You must be consistent with your rulings.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay, thank you, hon Shivambu.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Do not abuse us in that fashion and everything, please.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I understand you may be contesting the ruling. We will look at that one, but for now the member has done the correct thing. He has withdrawn. Hon member, you must ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You must be consistent with your rulings, please.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I have understood you, hon Shivambu. Could you take your seat. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Now, hon Ndlozi, could you take your seat? Your Chief Whip is standing.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Now he is sitting. Look over there, Chairperson, because ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay, wait, hon Ndlozi. If you do not ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Could I please address you, hon Chairperson?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could I address you first?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Okay.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I have said to your Chief Whip ... I understand that he is contesting the ruling. So, we will look at that. For now, the member has done what he had to do.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: No. You are ... [Inaudible.] ... me.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am now not sure which point you are rising on.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: It’s a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay, which order?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, we have made an observation here.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: The presiding officers - when it comes to ANC members, when they have to be called to order - become cowards and spineless. And I would like you to take that into consideration when you come back to us with that ruling. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi ... !

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... because the way you are presiding: when it comes to us, you are tough; when it comes to ANC members, presiding officers are spineless and they are cowards.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, could you please stand? Could you please stand, hon Ndlozi? As indicated earlier, when there are concerns that members are contesting the rulings, there are processes. I have just indicated to your Chief Whip that indeed we will look at the matter he was raising concerns about. You are doing the same. But in doing so you then utter the unparliamentary languagee too. Could I ask ... [Interjections.] Could I please finish? Hon Ndlozi, could you withdraw “spineless” and “coward” that you have used to refer to me and other presiding officers?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I maintain that when it comes to order of ANC members ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you please ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... the presiding officers are cowards and spineless. I am not going to withdraw.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi ...! Okay, could you leave the House.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am not going to leave the House ... [Inaudible.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you leave the House.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am not going to withdraw. I am not going to leave the House. When it comes to ANC members, presiding officers are cowards and spineless.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am not leaving!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Are you now rising on a new point of order? [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Don’t ... [Inaudible.] ... like that.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am not.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Don’t abuse us like that. This is not your Parliament; it is not the Parliament of the ANC. [Interjections.] We have been voted to be here. Don’t abuse us like that. We give you a simple reminder in that in your previous ruling you said that there was nothing unparliamentary about people saying “coward” and “spineless”. Now, because the order comes from different sides ... [Inaudible.] You must be consistent.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu, could you please take your seat? [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, but don’t abuse us!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you take your seat? This week we made a ruling on the same matter: on a statement made by the Chief Whip of the DA in respect of a comment made to the hon Masina - exactly the same words. We asked him to withdraw – because, indeed, it is unparliamentary - the words “spineless” and “coward”, and he did. He did.

And, hon Shivambu, you raised your concerns and asked us to relook at the matter, and I agreed with you. I said, yes, we will do it. And your hon member Ndlozi stands up and says the same thing, complaining about the unfair treatment. I agreed with him. I said, “We will look at it,” but he then makes a further statement which is unparliamentary, and that’s what I am asking you to withdraw.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I provisionally withdraw, hon Chairperson. [Interjections.] I withdraw.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you for withdrawing - progress for the House. Hon member, you can proceed.

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: Chairperson? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member Nqweniso, what is the point of order you are rising on?

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: Chairperson, can I remind you of the incidents of this House? Perhaps some of us have forgotten ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): In relation to what?

Ms N V NQWENISO: In relation to words that are uttered here and there - unparliamentary.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay, hon member.

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: One, we were called ... Today, we were called dead snakes.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member!

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: We were called empty vessels.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Nqweniso! Hon member, Nqweniso!

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: How is that different from coward?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Nqweniso!

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: An empty vessel and a coward. How is it different? Isn’t it today a point of debate?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Nqweniso, the hon Boroto, the presiding Chair who was here, said that before the end of today she would rule on that matter - where utterances of snake were made. So, could you please take your seat. The hon Ndlozi has done what is honourable. Could you please allow us and allow your member to proceed? Please take your seat.

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: No, my question is how is an empty vessel ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] How is it different? Isn’t it a point of debate?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Nqweniso, could you please take your seat. You are asking a question for clarity that will be given to you. Now we proceed with the House. Hon member, could you please proceed with your statement?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: The Mining Charter requires 26% participation of BBBEE ownership of these mines, and that has also not been achieved.

 

Ngoba uNgqongqoshe uyatatazela, uyangena, uyaphuma, uphethwe ubugwala. [Because the Minister is agitated, he is neither here nor there, because of cowardice.]

 

The EFF has called for an inquiry ... [Interjections.]

 

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks A T Didiza): IsiZulu ngiyasazi, uyaphinda yize noma ubusuhoxise kahle, manje angazi ukuthi usuphindelani. [Ubuwelewele.] Hoxisa nje lungu elihloniphekile. Uyalazi igama olishilo.

 

Mnu M M DLAMINI: Uyatatazela, uyangena uyaphuma.

 

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks A T Didiza): Hoxisa leli lokugcina.

 

Mnu M M DLAMINI: Selihoxile Somlomo.

 

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks A T Didiza): Ngiyabonga-ke, qhubeka. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I know isiZulu, you are repeating that word again although you had withdrawn it earlier, now I do not know why you are repeating that again. [Interjections.] Just withdraw, hon member. You know the word you have uttered.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: He is agitated, he is neither going in nor going out.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms A T Didiza): Withdraw the last one.

Mr M M DLAMINI: It is withdrawn, hon Speaker.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you then, continue.]

 

The EFF called for an inquiry to conduct a study on the living conditions of mineworkers in this country, and the ANC rejected it. Minister of Police, in two months’ time it is going to be August. You might as well send the police to Marikana to kill those miners because their living conditions have not changed. They have not received R12 500. So, you might as well send the police there. It’s in August - two months’ time. You can start preparing.

 

South Africa is losing over R147 billion a year on the illegal movement of money in this country, and the mining industry is the biggest culprit through the marketing companies that are not declaring taxes in this country. And, again ...

 

... uNgqongqoshe uphethwe ubugwala ... [... the Minister is suffering from cowardice ...]

 

The EFF rejects this Budget Vote.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Mineral Resources, like many other portfolios, is constrained in its development path by the current economic outlook and its associated scarcity of resources. Electricity constraints are a major factor in the retardation of growth and manufacturing in mining and contribute hugely to the current slow pace of economic growth in the country.

 

It is therefore imperative that our fiscal rebalancing should allow for a wider budget deficit in order to cushion mineral resources from a potential hard landing if we take factors, such as labour unrest, electrical constraints, etc, into consideration as these could only result in an increased debt burden on the state.

 

The 60% real increase in the budget for Mineral Resources, allocated over the medium term under the mineral policy and promotion programme to promote investment in mining and petroleum projects, will greatly assist the turnaround in this sector as most else has failed, with mineral prices at their lowest since 2002.

 

Government’s recent decision to reopen debate around the pricing of mineral sales has created mistrust and has put its credibility at risk. The mine-gate pricing model, amending the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, could just be the kind of deal breaker that would break the back of the mining industry and ... [Inaudible.] ... off to subsidise manufacturing. This could have the complete opposite effect of what we originally intended by choking downstream manufacturing. To take one of the bedrocks of the economy and subsidise another is, by and large, insanity.

 

So, the IFP in supporting this Budget Vote would, however, want to ask the following questions: Why are mining-affected communities being excluded from the draft framework for sustainable mining discussions? Why are the very communities in which these activities take place and that provide the necessary labour being excluded from the talks, and why are they not interested parties in this regard?

 

The budget allocated towards the rehabilitation of abandoned mines, acid-mine drainage and even the investigation of such is completely inadequate, as a recent study on the environmental impact of unrehabilitated abandoned mines highlighted the fact that there are no measures currently in place or budgeted for in order to lessen the environmental and social impact. I thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, a key question that needs to be answered is: Are mining licences in South Africa available on bribing the political elite - for example, the hon Baleka Mbethe? Do we have to find the FBI answer for them to unravel that? This has been put forward to say that she has been appointed ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, could you please take your seat.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, this hon member is not only out of order; he is insulting. He knows that he has to bring that allegation through a substantive motion, but he is not even implying; he is directly insulting. He must withdraw, now! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order! Hon Madisha, you said you wanted to ask a question, and your question was whether the licences are given through bribery. Do I take it that that’s what you said? [Interjections.] Is that what you said? [Interjections.] And then you said: For example, Baleka Mbethe, referring to a member of this House. Then you proceeded. Is that what you said?

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson, for assisting me, because it was all over the country that she got R25 million. She got R25 million, it was reported. Where is the money?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member! Hon member Madisha, order! Order! Order, hon member! [Interjections.] You are casting aspersions on the member, and if you want to bring a substantive motion on that issue, you need to do so. For now, can I ask you to withdraw? [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Must I withdraw what is there in the country – all over? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member! [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: It is known. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member Madisha! [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: It is a known fact. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: It has been reported all over – that she got R25 million! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha! Hon Madisha! [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: So, tell the country – all the papers – to go and do that. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, could you please withdraw? [Interjections.] If you want to bring a substantive motion in this House, you have to do so. This is the same matter on which I ruled last week in reference to the hon Masina on the statement he made, even though saying alleging it was in the paper, which cast aspersions on the Leader of the DA. We asked him to withdraw, and he did. Could you please do so? [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: This is what I am going to do, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, could you withdraw? [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: But you have not listened to me. Can you listen? I am going on. Okay! [Interjections.] Chairperson, you need to listen as well. What I am putting to you is: I am going to withdraw this truth from the House now. Okay? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You have withdrawn.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: I withdraw this truth.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you. Proceed. [Interjections.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Now, if corruption is the order of the day and the rule of law is debased, it is the hardworking miners in our country who will lose out on income, housing, bursaries and so on. [Interjections.]

 

In 1993, gold contributed 3,8% to South Africa’s GDP. Two years ago, this had declined to 1,7% of GDP. The National Development Plan stresses the importance of a stable ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Hon member Pandor?

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I don’t know whether you were listening, and as the members have said: Please be fair to everyone. The hon member has not withdrawn. He did not withdraw. The hon Chief Whip of the Opposition did withdraw properly, but he has not withdrawn. He said ... [Interjections.] ... no, he didn’t. He has not withdrawn. He said, “I withdraw this truth.” It’s not a truth. Could he withdraw? If that is how Cope gathers material, no wonder they are where they are. But he has not withdrawn.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, thank you very much. I have asked the member to withdraw – that’s the first statement he made. I again asked him to withdraw; he did. But given that you are raising a concern, I will again check the Hansard. For now, could the hon member proceed?

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, some of us don’t know English properly.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha! Hon Madisha ...

Mr W M MADISHA: We can only come and say, “Hong, hong, hong, hong”, like that member.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, hon Madisha!

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Yes. Hong, hong, hong, hong, hong. That is the only thing that she knows. Yes, thank you. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, yesterday in this House the hon Carter, who is your member, raised a point of order around members who were making animal noises. And we asked her to withdraw. Could you please withdraw what you have done?

 

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Motho o, o itse sentle gore ke bua Setswana go mo feta. [This person knows very well that I know Setswana better than him.]

 

Uyayazi into yokuba ndithetha isiXhosa. [You know that I speak isiXhosa.]

 

Ngikhuluma nesiZulu. [I also speak isiZulu.]

 

Ungaphikisa, kodwa uyandazi. [You may disagree, but you know me.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Le nna ke tseba Sepedi, ke bolela Sepedi. Hong, hong, hong! Ke bolela Sepedi. [I’m also familiar with Sepedi, I speak the language. Hong, hong, hong! I speak Sepedi.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha!

 

Mr W M MADISHA: That is exactly what she is doing and we are leaving her to do it.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, you have actually exhausted your time. Thank you very much.

Mr W M MADISHA: Hong, hong, hong. To hell with you. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, could you please withdraw? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I have recognised the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. I have noted hands. I have just recognised the Chief Whip. Chief Whip of the Majority Party? [Interjections.] Order, hon members!

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, we have been restraining the members of the ANC ... [Interjections.] ... for a long, long time in the face of blatant, blatant provocation. [Interjections.] Now, the hon Madisha is crowning it. He says, “To hell with you.” And this House is laughing and enjoying it. [Interjections.] He must not only withdraw; he must be taken to the ethics committee, because he cannot be allowed to do that. Now, he must withdraw, and be taken to the ethics committee.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, did you make the statement as has been alleged?

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Can I go on, Chairperson? To the Chief Whip, I withdraw that. Thank you very much. Hong. I withdraw that.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha! Hon Madisha, I have addressed you on these noises that you are making. Could you please just withdraw? [Interjections.] Hon members, could you please allow me the opportunity to talk to the member and then address the other points of order. Hon Madisha, could you withdraw what you have just done?

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Yes, I withdraw, of course. I withdraw “Hong.” [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! I have recognised the hon Mapisa-Nqakula.

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Chairperson, I think we need to take this matter very seriously. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I think there are two things that are happening here. One of them is the fact that ... You know, this thing of having the bar open all the time is creating problems for ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

Mr A M MATLHOKO: On a point of order ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Could you take your seat. I will recognise you when the time comes. [Interjections.] Hon member of the EFF, could you please take your seat. I will recognise you.

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, I am ready to move a motion on this matter on one of the days in that the bar must close as early as possible ... [Applause.] ... either in the afternoon or in the evening. People don’t behave in a very normal manner. I think that something needs to be done about the bar. And so that I am not out of order on this matter, I am ready to move a motion. We have seen it ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... played itself ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

Mr A M MATLHOKO: On a point of order ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, could you please take your seat. There is one of your members who have asked for a point of order. The DA’s Chief Whip has also asked for a point of order. You are the third one. Could you please take your seat?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Can you recognise me ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you please take your seat? [Interjections.] You are third in line. Take your seat.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I will. Okay, no problem.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mapisa-Nqakula, have you concluded your point?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: No, Chair. I was still saying that I maintain my position. It is very clear that after lunch and after dinner it plays itself out here in the Chamber. My view is that it’s a matter which we must discuss honestly as Members of Parliament because we don’t look good. What we are doing when we turn the little corner there plays itself out here. That’s it.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon member of the EFF and hon Steenhuisen, I have seen you. There was a member of the EFF there who wanted to raise a point of order.

 

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Hon Chair, I was cautioning you that that hon member that side was standing while the other member was speaking. I was just cautioning you about that.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much, hon member. Hon Steenhuisen?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, it’s very clear that what the hon Minister is doing is alleging and insinuating that the hon Madisha is under the influence of alcohol. [Interjections.] The hon Minister can bring a motion to the House. I don’t think you will get a seconder from the hon Nzimande or the hon Nxesi. [Laughter.] [Applause.] But, nonetheless, it’s not appropriate to allege that the member is drunk.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! I have noted your point. Order, hon member. Thank you.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, we were going to call an order on the platform that the hon Minister has abused. We want to argue that that is not a point of order, and you must speak very harshly, or strongly, rather, to the hon Minister in that she must stand and call for proper orders. There is no order that sounds like that.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Now we are going on ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am raising a point of order that you must be firm. An hon Minister stands and abuses the platform and takes the time on something that is not an order. If it was anyone else on this side, you would have said, “That is not an order. Sit down. Bla, blab la,” regardless of the fact that I tried to bring to your attention that she is abusing her platform by going on and on, on a point that is not an order. She must not do that and you must speak firmly on that. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon Mpontshane, could you take your seat. Hon members, I have ruled on the order in respect of the statement by the hon Madisha. There is a point that has been raised by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. I would advise that he take it up with the chairperson of the ethics committee, as he indeed said he would like to do.

 

The Minister of Defence and Military Veterans has also said that she would bring a substantive motion with respect to the issue about the bars opening or closing. Those matters will be done appropriately. So, for now, could we please ... [Interjections?]

 

Hon Mpontshane, you want to make a point of order? Hon Shivambu, the hon Mpontshane is on the floor.

 

Ms T V TOBIAS: Chair, I had raised my hand long before all these people.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I have seen you, hon Tobias.

Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Mhlonishwa, cha bengicela mina lapha kuNgqongqoshe, le nto akhuluma ngayo ukudla kwamadoda, ake athi ukuhoxisa ngoba phela akusiphathi kahle lokhu akushilo. Akusiphathi kahle; ukudla kwamadoda lokho, Ngqongqoshe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Member, my request to the Minister is to withdraw what he is talking about; the men’s meal, because it does not sit well with us; that men’s meal, Minister.]

 

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, with due respect, I want to bring to your attention the manner in which I have been observing over days the way female Members of Parliament are being patronised by members, to the point where I have taken it upon myself to write a letter to the Speaker. [Interjections.]

 

I want the presiding officers to give this matter serious attention. It may sound like it’s a matter of the hon Madisha mocking the hon Naledi, but it has been continuing in this House. I beg for the indulgence of the presiding officers to check the Hansard on all activities that have been taking place here in this Chamber that seek to denigrate the integrity of female Members of Parliament. I thank you.

 

Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, uyabona le nto le iqala la, uma ngabe wena uwuthisha esikoleni, into yokuqala akufuneki ukhombise ukuthi le ngane uhlobene nayo, le awuhlobene nayo. Ekugcineni kugcina sekubangeka into enjenga le.

 

Uyabona njengoba sila, sibukwa yiNingizimu Afrika yonke, ayikho into ebaluleke ngaphezu kokuthi sihloniphane. Noma ngabe-ke ubona sengathi angiyilutho, kodwa asenze ngendlela enenhlonipho ukuze sikwazi ukubona nokuxazulula izinkinga. Le nkinga iqala lapha, akungabi bikho ozokhuluma noma yikanjani komunye, kuthiwe kulungile ngoba akasiye oweqembu elibusayo.

 

Le nto iqala lapho-ke, umthetho awusebenze; ngisho umthetho lo esithe uma sifika la Phalamende satshelwa wona; asitshelwanga la ukuthi kukhona abazovunwa, kukhona abangezukuvunwa. Iphutha alilungiswa ngephutha. Ngicela ukuthi njengabaholi bale Ndlu ake nihlale phansi nilungise ngoba sengathi kukude la kuyiwa khona. Asifuni bakithi ukuphoxeka ezweni lonke. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, you see this thing begins here, if you are a school teacher, you are not supposed to show that you are related to this child and not related to this one. At the end you will experience something like this.

You see as we are here, we are being watched by the whole of South Africa and there is nothing more than showing respect to one another. Even if you feel I’m nobody, let us treat each other with respect in order to be able to see and solve problems. The problem starts here, let there be no one who speaks anyhow to anyone, and be seen as correct just because they don’t belong to the ruling party.

 

That’s where the problem begins, the rule must apply; I’m referring to the rule which we were told about when we arrived here in Parliament; we were not told that there are those who will be favoured and those who would not be favoured. A mistake is not corrected by another mistake. I’m requesting that as the leaders of this House that you must take time to correct this because it seems as if we are going nowhere. We don’t want to be a disgrace to the whole country. Thank you.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, the Minister of Defence cast aspersions on Members of Parliament in that they were under the influence of alcohol. That is basically what she did when she spoke earlier here. We are rising on the point of order that you must instruct her immediately to stand up and apologise and withdraw. [Interjections.] As a matter of fact, if we brought a breathalyser here, the majority of the ANC members would not pass. [Interjections.] And it must be stated clearly because the majority of them ... There are those who don’t even know - most of us - where the bar is or whatever alcohol place there is here. But the Minister comes here and makes an allegation that members are under the influence of alcohol. They are the ones who are always drinking alcohol ... [Interjections.] ... [Inaudible.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, thank you. Could I please address hon members? We have actually gone back and forth on matters I have ruled on. We open them up again. I have advised members on processes that they must follow with respect to the substantive motion that must be raised. Could I appeal to hon members that there are issues that have been raised on which I need the advice of the Table and on which I have to go to Hansard. Could we please proceed so that we can move on with the processes of today? I have noted your concerns, hon Shivambu, as I have the concerns raised by Mam Khawula, hon Tobias - all the members. I have said, on those I can’t rule on now, that you give me the space to actually get advice. Some of those issues I cannot be expected to rule on now. Could we please move forward? Hon Madisha, I have ruled on your matter. Could you please take a seat.

Mr W M MADISHA: No, I insist. I have to say something because that has been directed at me. [Interjections.] I don’t even drink for that matter, but it has been directed at me. I have to say something.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, you can’t because I said exactly that on those maters I will actually follow up, because indeed some of you are making allegations that the statement made cast aspersions on others. Could we please proceed? Allow me to get advice from the Table.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, please, you must proceed. As you are saying, we have to proceed. But then let’s go beyond that particular point. She has to withdraw. No, by hook or by crook, I insist. She has to move out of the ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, could you take your seat. Could you take your seat, hon Madisha.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: But then tell her to withdraw.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I don’t think you have heard what I said. [Interjections.]

Mr W M MADISHA: I have heard, but she must withdraw that.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you take your seat.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: I will take my seat, but tell her to withdraw.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Could you take your seat.

 

Hon Madisha, I have explained the process ... [Interjections.]

 

Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, kukhona into ebuhlungu engiphatha kabi futhi; utshwala nabuvulelani la ePhalamende? Bukhona yini eziteshini zamaphoyisa, ezibhedlela ngisho zonke nje izindawo zikahulumeni? Yiphutha lenu leli! Kunemithetho emibi la ekhaya! Yidlani-ke manje umuthi wenu! Ningasibambezeli; sizosebenza la! Utshwala, umbulalazwe uvulelweni lapha na? [Ihlombe.] [Ubuwelewele.]

 

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nksz A T Didiza): Malungu ahloniphekile, impela lokhu usho ukuthi lolu daba kufanele nilulethe ezithebeni ngokwemigudu yakhona ngoba okushiwo uMam’ uKhawula kuyafana nokushiwo uMam’ uMapisa-Nqakula. Ngicela ukuthi-ke siqhubeke nomsebenzi wanamuhla. [Ubuwelewele.](Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, there is a serious issue that is worrying me a lot; why did you allow alcohol here in Parliament? Is there alcohol at Police Stations, hospitals or in all government institutions? This is your mistake! There are bad tendencies here in Parliament. Have a taste of your own medicine! Don’t delay us; we are here to work. Why did you allow alcohol, such a scourge? [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms T A DIDIZA): Hon Members, indeed this means you must bring it forward by following the right processes because what hon Khawula is raising is the same as what hon Mapisa-Nqakula has raised. May we please proceed with the business of today? [Interjections.]]

 

Sol N M KHUBISA: Mphathi Sihlalo ... [Ubuwelewele] ... besifuna ukuthi, mphathi sihlalo, kuyaphuthuma - abantu bakithi abalekelelwe ikakhulukazi ekubambeni iqhaza elibonakalayo kumcebo ovela ngaphansi komhlaba.

 

I-NFP ithi abasizwe abantu abamnyama ukuqonda lemboni bafundiswe, baqeqeshwe ngayo. Umbiwa kulelizwe lomnotho wamagolide, amadayimane nakho konke okunye okusansimbi, makuhluzwe kulelizwe kungahambi kuye phesheya kwezilwandle.

 

Amaholo nemihlomulo yabasebenzi basezimayini akulungiswe ngokukhulu ukushesha banyuselwe imihlomulo. Abantu abakhele eduze kwezimayini abathole imitholampilo, bathole izindlu bathole nezindawo zokuhweba kanye nezindawo zokungcebeleka.

 

Sesikushilo lokho singasho njenge-NFP ukuthi uma kulungiswa lezi zinto, singasiseka lesi sabelomali. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

 

[Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson ... [Interjections] ... we would like to state that, chairperson, it is an urgent matter especially for the people of our country to be assisted in order to partake in the mineral wealth.

 

The NFP says that the black people must be assisted and be taught in order to understand this industry, and be trained for it. These minerals, gold, diamonds and everything that is metallic are mined in this country, don’t take them overseas but let them be refined in this country.

 

The salaries and incentives for mine workers must be adjusted and raised as a matter of urgency. The people who are residing near the mines must get clinics, they must get houses, get places for trading and places for leisure activities.

Having stated all this, as NFP we can say that, if all these things can be sorted, we can support this Budget Vote.]

 

Mr N T GODI: Hon House Chairperson, our major concern is the ability of the department to monitor the implementation of legislation that seeks to ensure that mining companies, especially, do the right thing. We know that social and labour plans are a legal requisite for companies to be granted licences, but our observation is that whilst companies have been granted these licences, they do as they please and the department does not seem to have the way withal to ensure that companies comply.

 

Whatever is happening in communities with mines, do not fully comply with the law and does not even have popular participation. We, as the APC, would want to the department to ensure that it is able to enforce legislation. The inability to monitor was again captured this week on the De Beers’s issue which we know even before 1994 De Beers was alleged to have done the same – transferred diamonds out of the country. And government just did not have the way withal to enforce this. So we would want to see the department enforcing legislation and regulations that are in place.

 

On the transformation of the mining sector it is the belief of the APC, as we have said, that government should not shy away from being at the centre of the economy. People buy shares and after two or three years sell them, and is back to square one in term of the transformation score. The APC would want that government should warehouse these shares. If black people have bought shares and want to sell, they should sell them to government so as to ensure that status and the level of transformation in the mines do not regress to ... [Interjections.] ... where we merely move in cycles. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

Mr Z M D MANDELA: Chairperson, the mandate of the Department of Mineral Resources is to promote and regulate the minerals and mining sector for transformation, growth, development, and ensure that all South Africans derive sustainable benefits from the country’s mineral wealth.

 

The department has provided a strategic plan that covers these three imperatives, namely, transformation, growth and development. We are confident that the milestones outlined therein are realistic, achievable and measurable, and will deliver the desired outcomes.

 

Asimanga siyaqhuba, sithetha esikuvileyo ebantwini, singqine esikubonileyo. Yiyo loo nto uza kubona ilungu elibekekileyo lamabomvana liye labona ukuba liye esikolweni liye kufunda. Kaloku thina apha izinto esizishukuxayo siqinisekisa ukuba zisuka ebantwini. Sithetha oku sikuvileyo singqine oku sikubonileyo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

 

[We are moving forward, we speak about what people have told us and testify on what we have seen. That is why you would notice that the illiterate hon member from the reds had decided to go back to school. We make sure that the things we are debating are informed by the people. We speak about what we have been told and testify on what we have seen.]

 

As we enter a new phase beyond the last charter and assessment milestones, I would like to make a call on the industry to intensify its commitment to industry transformation as opposed to a carrot and stick approach. This is critical if we are to achieve our full potential as a nation and create meaningful entries into the mainstream economy of South Africa’s mineral resources and mining industry. We wish to commend the Minister and the Deputy Minister for their leadership and assure them of our continued support, co-operation and partnership in taking forward the agenda of transformation, growth and development in the mineral resource sector. We therefore have no hesitation as the ANC in supporting this Budget Vote.

 

Kuyafuneka ... [Kwaphela ixesha.] [We have to ... [Time expired.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 206: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Brown, L; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 91: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote No 30 - Science and Technology

 

Declarations of Vote:

Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, our country faces a major problem of poor economic growth and unemployment. In the light of this, the Department of Science and Technology’s vision and mission of creating a prosperous society to develop, co-ordinate and manage a national system of innovation that will bring about maximum human capital, sustainable economic growth and improved quality of life for all, has to be supported and encouraged.

 

But, it is also critical that government has to match its policy commitment with dedicated action, implementation and importantly funding to drive job creating economic growth.

 

Now, the Science and Technology budget is R7,4 billion. This does represent an increase of R1 billion from last year. However, we need to put this into perspective and in the context of this department’s very important mandate. The NDP also acknowledges the critical role this department has to play in enabling economic growth and job creation.

 

Unfortunately, this budget allocation constitutes but a small percentage of the national budget and is not nearly enough for the department to function optimally. So, clearly there is not an understanding or appreciation of the pivotal role this department has and can play in encouraging job creation. Although the different entities have made adjustments to manage their limited budgets, the question remain whether these adjustments, especially when its entailed reduction in staff is not going to impact negatively on research and innovation capacity.

 

I would like to say to the Minister of Finance that this is one department that is well run and which tries to make the most with what it has and still achieves. The DA understands the importance of this department and it surely is underfunded, but still the DA will support this budget. [Applause.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Unlike the DA, the EFF will not support this budget. Because, firstly, if I remember very well, last year, the hon Minister Pandor came here and promised us that a state-owned pharmaceutical company is going to be established. It has been a year; no progress and no state-owned pharmaceutical company. I think this is a very serious issue. We are talking about people’s lives.

 

Uthe Ngqongqoshe uhlala emakhaya le kwaXhosa, wazi kahle kakhulu ukuthi abantu abavela emakhaya abakwazi ukuthenga imithi ebizayo. Okokuqala lokho. [Minister you said you live in a rural area in the Eastern Cape, you know very well that the people from the rural areas can’t afford to buy expensive medication. That’s the first point.]

 

Secondly, with a clear conscience, the EFF will not support this ANC government to continue to make mockery of science, innovation, and technology development by allocating crumbs, clearly crumbs, nothing of the budget to this department of Science and Technology. This department, Minister, is very important, if you know what I mean. [Interjections.]

 

Innovation – I know there is a lack of capacity on this side, but please take this department very seriously! Innovation in science and technology must be central to the implementation of South Africa’s Industrial Policy.

 

The amount of R7,5 billion which has been increased by a mere 4% in the last three years is not matching resources for the national research and development strategy regardless of however incoherent the strategy is with the rest of the ANC government industrial policy.

 

Our scientists will never be able to compete in the international science space. Instead, we are setting up our talented scientist for failure. All they will do with their research and innovative ideas is to shelve them somewhere. We object to this budget. Thank you. [Time expired.]

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chair, the NFP supports this budget. The NFP strongly believes that science and technology and innovation have a critical and crucial role to play in job creation, poverty alleviation and economic growth.

 

The vision of an increased well-being and prosperity through science technology and innovation is very appropriate when one considers the demands for new grounds that our country has to break by investing more in initiative programmes and projects that will ensure that we get more scientists, technicians and innovators. We need more graduated by more specifically masters and doctorates in various critical areas of science, technology and innovation. That is why the NFP believes that more money has to be injected into this department. It is a relatively small department which operates through entities and agencies. The generation of knowledge and its use to increase efficiency, enhance industrialisation, grow the economy, and bridge inequalities are all important.

 

The NFP believes that the Department of Science and Technology’s relationship with the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Higher Education and Training is very crucial. The love of science and technology must be instilled in learners whilst at the early stages of schooling. Learners, especially in rural areas and townships must be exposed to critical science and technology innovations. Having said that, we support the budget.

 

Ungamnaki uMbatha! [Don’t mind Mbatha!]

 

Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, we support this Budget Vote in the full knowledge and confidence that the department will be able to account as it has always done for the resources that it has been given.

 

We, nonetheless, also believe that more money needs to be given to this department. We believe that it should be the centre for creativity, research and innovation. Since technology is the basis of the functioning of almost all departments, we think that there is need for better co-ordination between the departments and this department. But, that it should be at the centre of the innovation and research in the country.

 

We also want to raise a small matter of the Human Sciences Research Council, which is an entity of the department. We think that it would be fair and correct that it be given preferential consideration when research work has to be done. As an entity of the department, if it is then meant to compete with everybody else that might undermine its own viability. And yet it is an institution of the state that should actually be used for whatever work that it has to do.

 

We, nonetheless, as the APC, want to fully support the budget. We think that the Ministry, in particular the Minister, has competently looked after this department. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Chair, the European Union annually stages its contests for young scientists to put on show the best of European students’ scientific achievements and to attract widespread media interest. In the US and France, for example teachers participated in a US scientific educational programme called Project ASTRO. Why do we not have similar programmes in South Africa? Why is the public broadcaster not having weekly science broadcasts? Everyone has exposure to technology but not to the science behind it.

 

Cope believes that science and technology must become available through the available infrastructure to the people of our country. Cope fully supports the funding of research in science and technology but would like to know what happens with such research upon completion. Research that sits on the shelves is of little use to the nation. The sum of R13 billion for research must have a big multiplier and accelerator effect. In our country lack of sanitation is a matter of great angst. Has this department put any innovative and viable solution on the table? Cope has reservations but will support this vote.

Ms L M MASEKO: Hon Chairperson, I do not think that the EFF understands the meaning of supporting a Budget Vote. They agree that this department needs ...

 

... ungangilahleli izandla! [... don’t throw your hands at me!]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Can you please proceed with your statement?

 

Ms L M MASEKO: They agree that the department needs more money, but they say that they do not support the Budget Vote. Also, because they have never attended any Science and Technology meeting, I am not even sure that they understand what they are talking about.

 

The Department of Science and Technology has an overarching role relating to most departments and it is central in ensuring the attainment of the National Development Plan to bring about radical economic transformation in our country. Science and technology is therefore key and central in redressing issues of unemployment, poverty and inequality.

 

South Africa is key and leads the continent in research and development, innovation and promotion of indigenous knowledge, in areas which have, for decades, been denied on the majority of South Africans.

 

In order for our country to be able to compete on the international space in the area of research and development and produce more masters and PhD graduates, it will be important to urge the Minister of Finance to speed up the allocation of 1,5% of the GDP to Science and Technology. Currently the allocation is a mere 0,92% while countries like Norway spend 1,62% in that area. We need that hon Minister to ensure that we move South Africa forward.

 

We would like to congratulate Minister Pandor for driving this department in the right direction. We believe that its centrality will ensure that we do indeed move South Africa forward. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, we want to rise on Rule 69 because we have been substantially misinterpreted. We understand what it means to support and to object to something. We object to this budget because we gave them money last year to go and form a state pharmaceutical company and they have not accounted for that ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... so, we reject it! If there is a notion that we do not understand what it means to support or reject, it must be clarified. We want a state pharmaceutical company. Account for that first, the maybe we will support the Budget Vote next time.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Thank you very much. I have noted your point of debate because I think that is a matter that you must debate with hon Maseko outside this Assembly.

 

Question put.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member of the PAC, unfortunately you did not raise your hand on time.

 

Prof L R MBINDA: I have been raising it.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I have already moved to the next section.

 

Prof L R MBINDA: No! I had been raising my hand but you did note acknowledge me. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, it’s okay. Please proceed.

 

Prof L R MBINDA: Thank you, hon Chair. The PAC supports this budget. Technology is very critical to the growth of the economy. Furthermore, it facilitates the improvement of cultural development of our society.

 

Nevertheless, the PAC observed how skewed academic research is. There are no serious movements on the number of accredited African professors who have gone to high schools of this country. Research funding has been made to sustain the old order in the academic environment. The PAC wants the department to account on the Africans research produced by that square kilometre array radio telescope. We heard many promises but few outcomes. Thank you.

 

Question put.

 

Division demanded

 

AYES – 286: Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Brown, L; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, Y; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Esau, S; Faku, Z C; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gana, S M; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mbinda, L R; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mubu, K S; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Scheepers, M A; Selfe, J; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Stander, T; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 10: Chewane, H; Khawula, M S; Matlhoko, A M; Maxon, H O; Mbatha, M S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Business Suspended at 20:39 and Resumed at 21:28.

 

Vote 31 – Small Business Development – put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr R W T CHANCE: Chairperson, it is highly appropriate that the Department of Small Business Development has drawn the graveyard shift in this debate. This department was strangled at birth. We had high hopes for this department a year ago. When the Department of Small Business Development was formed, we believe that is going to be the vanguard for job creation and small business development but we have been sadly disappointed. All of the functions that came out of the Department of Trade and Industry are dysfunctional. We have a situation where sector education and training authority, Seta, which consumes 80% of the department’s budget, has an acting chief executive officer who has been on the job for over a year.

 

When I spoke to him last week he said he is not going to apply for the post he wants to go to the cozy situation of the Department of Trade and Industry where he came from. That shows the culture that the Department of Small Business and Development has inherited. Secondly, we have a situation where the department has no proper budget for the red tape production programme which should be more of the major focus areas of this department. It says that it is going around the country trying to get municipalities and provincial departments focus on reducing red tape. However, not a single person in that staffing that has got that responsibility full time.

 

We also have a situation where the Minister is not fulfilling her duty of being the first business-friendly Minister in the Cabinet and going around and talking to her communists colleagues and saying, Come on, chaps, let actually help the economy where it needs it most.

 

We also find the situation where the department is battling to establish and sign its transversal agreements, which it has been going with for at least six or seven months. Not a single transversal agreement has emerged. For these reasons, we find it very difficult to support this budget, though we would be the first party to support small business development. The department is not going about it in the right way. We cannot support this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Vho T E MULAUDZI: Mudzulatshidulo, EFF a i khou tikedza hoyo Mugaganyagwama nga zwitevhelaho: Vha sedzesa mabindu maṱuku a na thaidzo nthihi fhedzi ine ya khou vhangiwa nga mabindu mahulwane. Mabindu mahulwane ha ṋei thikhedzo mabindu maṱuku, zwo vhangiwa nga vha DTI ngauri a vha na mulayo une wa kombetshedza uri mabindu mahulwane a thuse mabindi maṱuku. Ndi ngazwo vha tshi vhona zwauri mabindu maṱuku a pfa vhuleme vhuhulwane ngauri vha isa mimoḽo mahayani, kha dziḽokishi dza tsini na mahayani, zwa sia mabindu maṱuku a tshi khou wa.

 

Zwino ro vha ri khou ri riṋe sa dzangano ḽa EFF, ri khou ri hafha fhethu mabindu maṱuku kha tikedziwe ngauri hoyu Muhasho wa vho Ramabindu Vhaṱuku wo vha wo fanela u tshi tou vha davhi kha DTI u songo tou vha muhasho wo imaho nga wone uṋe.

 

Hu na 30% ye ya ambiwa nga Muphuresidennde uri i ḓo fhiwa vho ramabindu vhaṱuku musi vha tshi ṋea dzithandela. Heyo 30% a huna mulayo une wa nga kombetshedza mihasho uri i ṋee hedzo dzithandela. A huna mulayo une wa tenda zwauri mabindu maṱuku a badeliwe hu sa athu u fhira maḓuvha a mahumi mararu. A huna mulayo une wa sumbedza zwauri mabindu maṱuku a tea uri a tsireledziwe khathihi na mabindu o ṱanganelanaho. Nga zwezwo ri ri hoyo muhasho wo tou iteliwa fhedzi uri u takadze vhathu vhane vha khou ṱoḓa uri vha wane mishumo u itela uri vhaḽe nga muhasho hoyu. Nga zwenezwo a ri tikedzi hoyo Mugaganyagwama. Ndaa! (Translation of Tshivenḓa speech follows.)

 

[Mr T E MULAUDZI: The EFF does not support this Budget Vote due to the following: Micro business have only one problem which is caused by macro businesses. Macro business does not support micro business because Department of Trade and Industry, DTI does not have a regulation which compels the macro business to support micro business. That is why you see that micro businesses have difficulties they build malls in in rural areas, townships and suburban areas, and this crumbles the micro businesses.

 

Now, we are saying as EFF that micro businesses should be supported because this Department of Small, Medium and Micro Enterprise was supposed to be a branch of the DTI, and not a department on its own.

 

There is 30% which the President announce it would be given to micro business people when he allocates tenders. There is no law which compels the department to award tenders. There is no law which says the micro business should be paid within 31 days. There is no law which says micro business should be protected including the cooperatives. Thus we say that this law was made to please people who need jobs so that they could gain from this department. As such we do not support this Vote. Thank you.]

 

Mrs S J NKOMO: Chairperson, this is one department that needs to be given an opportunity to advance and ensure that its objectives are met. We do note that, as the IFP, they have the main objective of advancing small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs. They do have a very small budget and yet they have such a mammoth task. Working with SMMEs in order to develop all the SMMEs as well as coming up with promoting entrepreneurship is not an easy task.

 

We would like to encourage this department to be on the look out for actually advancing these SMMEs, ensuring that the co-operatives are actually an area which is taken care of an area that will ensure that self-help and self-reliance is an issue that is taken forth. The issue of community banks, which this department will also be looking at, we would like to ensure that it actually happens and that most of community banks are done.

 

Lastly, we do take note that 90% of the 11 million new jobs that need to be created, especially by a particular year with this department, we will look into it. We encourage this department to come up with, in about 5, 10 or 15 years time, the exact numbers of job that will be created. We encourage this department to go forth and rise to the challenge of what they hope to do. It is actually a business or a department that is a mammoth task on its hands. Thank you vey much.

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, it is imperative that more SMMEs and co-operatives be promoted and developed so that they can participate effectively in the mainstream economy, and ultimately become the cornerstones of the South African economy. Most foreign entrepreneurs are running their businesses more successfully than the local competitors, particularly in the townships because they have been trained and taught skills on how to run a business profitably. There have a competitive advantage over locals who have received either too little or no at training all.

 

That is why the ACDP believes that more money is needed to skill and train young entrepreneurs and also invest in the introduction of entrepreneurship education from basic school level right up to tertiary education. This, we believe, will help cultivate an entrepreneurial mindset in our young people so that when they finish high school, they will consider starting their own businesses rather than looking for a job. We agree with and confirm with the International Partnership for Service-Learning, IPSL, that this department must be given an opportunity so that many of those who cannot have their own businesses can be given innovative, direction and also be skilled so that we would have more employed young people because opportunities are being created by this department. The ACDP will therefore support this Bill.

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chairperson, the decision to establish this department was aimed at advancing the development of small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, and co-operative for job creation, reduction of poverty and inequalities with particular focus on youth, women and people with disabilities. We need to have the masses of our people to live and let live. We need to assist them to be self-reliant and productive.

 

The NFP would like to see the department increasing visibility of small enterprise development agent offices and in particular establish more of these offices in rural areas where people who need them can access them without incurring transport expenses to go to the cities where these offices are largely located.

 

There is a dire need for the department to create an environment where youth and women entrepreneurs grow and thrive in townships and rural areas. The department must seriously and robustly work intandem with youth and women business agencies within the municipalities, especially those in rural areas. As the NFP we feel that this department must be given an opportunity to chart the way forward. On that note, we support the budget.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, just one simple suggestion to the Ministry. The name of the department is small business. Now, my understanding of how the brain works is that, make no small plans, for small plans have no magic to stir man’s blood. Therefore, to continue with name small business people, there will remain thinking small. Remove the word small and just say department of business development and you will see the change.

 

Ngokwentetho yesiXhosa kuthiwa, umntwana uyalilandela igama athiywe ngalo. [In isiXhosa, we say a child follows or rather mimics her/his given name.]

 

Therefore, you will find

 

... ukuba baya kusoloko becinga ukuba kufuneka bahlale bebancinane kuba kaloku baye kwi ... [... that they will always think that they should not develop because they have joined the ...]

 

... department of small business. Just that change will bring about a big change. Thank you.

 

Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, indeed the department has a huge task in its hands. We know that in the past our people were denied economic opportunities. After liberation there is an expectation that our people must participate in the economy. The easiest entry point, which requires low capital outlay, is the retail business. Now, with the challenges that we have seen where our people in the townships are even displaced in those small retail businesses, there is a beryline wall, and it creates tensions in the mainstream economy controlled by the beneficiaries of apartheid

 

In the small businesses or the retail sector where they use to survive or thrive in, they are now being displaced. I think that impart fuel some of the kind of challenges and clashes that we have seen. I think that the department has a critical role to play in ensuring that we find the solution to protect and enable our people to participate at that very entry points of the retail sector. Otherwise, our people will feel like they are just between the rock and the hard place. They have no where to go and have no role to play in the economy. We support the budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, this department needs to invest heavily in training and developing artisans, artisanal mining, artisanal manufacturing, artisanal agriculture, artisanal technology, solutions services, artisanal engineering and mechanical services, artisanal financial services and artisanal fisheries, are all waiting to be developed. We can go on in this fashion, the key word is artisanal.

 

The need to establish artisanal firms in our country and to train artisans superbly in a diverse range of economic activities is an imperative. We need to see the development of persons, co-operatives or companies, show a high quality or distinctive product or service become available in our country.

 

The department, the moment is failing to pursue the so-called high road to small business development, and therefore Cope cannot support this.

 

Ms N R BHENGU: The Department of Small Business Development is one-year-old. The Budget Vote that the ANC fully supports is the first budget allocated to this very new department. It is a department that is at a transitional stage, moving from being a programme of the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, to becoming a fully fledged department.

 

Thina kwa-ANC asiyizali ingane bese siyincisha ukudla ukuze ife. Yingakho sisixhasa isabiwomali salo Mnyango. Lo Mnyango uyaqala ukuthola isabiwomali kulo nyaka. Ngakho-ke akekho umuntu ongathi usewubonile lo Mnyango ukuthi usebenza kanjani ngoba yima uqala ukuthola isabiwomali sawo. Okunye esifisa ukukusho la ukuthi lo Mnyango unikezwe amandla okusayina izivumelwano zokusebenzisana neminye iMinyango, phecelezi ama-transversal agreements, ezweni elinomnotho oxubile oqhutshwa nguhulumeni, nawumkhakha ozimele wezamabhizinisi kanye nezinhlangano zobambiswano.

 

UNgqongqoshe walo Mnyango usayinile noNgqongqoshe wezamaBhizinisi Omphakathi okuyiyona Minyango enamabhizinisi aphethwe nguhulumeni azonikeza imakethe kulo Mnyango. Abangaqondi-ke ukuthi wenza amalungiselelo ngaphambi kokuthi usebenze, bazothi mawunganikezwa futhi ungasekelwa.

 

Thina sikholelwa ekutheni lo Mnyango uyadingeka futhi yiwona ozoletha imisebenzi eyizigidi eziyi-9,9 emisebenzini elindelekile eyizigidi eziyi-11 ngonyaka wezi-2030. Siyawesekela lo Mnyango; uzoqeda ububha. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[In the ANC we do not give birth to a child and neglect it by starving it to death. That is why we support this department’s Budget Vote. It will be for the first time for this department to receive a budget this year. Therefore, no one would say they have seen how this department works because it will be receiving its budget for the first time. The other thing that we want to point out is that this department is authorized to sign cooperation agreements, known as transversal agreements with other departments, in the country of mixed economy practiced by the government and the private sector and the cooperatives.

 

The Minister of this department signed an agreement with the Minister of the Department of Public Enterprises which is the department that deals with government enterprises, that’s the one that would provide this department with the market. But those who do not understand that she is making preparations before it can operate, will say it should not be given money and should not be supported. We believe that this department is needed as it is the one that will bring 9,9 million of the 11 million prospective jobs in 2030. We support this department, it will eradicate poverty. Thank you. [Applause.]]

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 202: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 82: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 32: Telecommunications and Postal Services – put.

 

Mrs M R SHINN: Chairperson, this department does have the leadership, in either the Minister or directors-general, to deliver on its mandate.

The Minister’s ceding of control of the broadcast digital migration policy to the Minister of Communications, despite all the relevant entities being under his executive authority, is responsible for the programme’s failure to progress. The failure to decide on Broadband Infraco’s future is causing the state asset to bleed skilled staff. Soon it’s only assets will be fibre in the ground with no-one to manage it and customers exacting penalties for delivery failure.

 

The delay in releasing policy for high-demand spectrums continues to contribute to the high cost of communication. The failure to deliver a policy direction, as required by law, to cut red tape to accelerate broadband infrastructure rollout is due to lack of capacity in the department.

 

This is a detrimental impact on the cost to communicate. Deputy directors-general are being investigated for corrupt activities by the Special Investigating Unit. Line staff is undergoing disciplinary hearings. Staff morale is at its lowest; targets are missed.

 

The turnaround strategy for the Post Office with its dependence on growing revenue on the back of a Cabinet request for government departments to commit business its way is nothing more than a state bailout to protect government monopoly. The intention to reduce staff to save money depends on trade union goodwill, that strategy by wishful thinking.

 

This department is a major inhibitor of cheaper and efficient communication in South Africa. We cannot trust it to spend its budget wisely and effectively. Thank you.

 

Dr H C CHEWANE: Hon Chair, since the Department of Communications split about a year ago, both heads of the new departments have failed to integrate this country’s communication’s framework and have spent valuable time fighting over who gets what portion of the department. It’s no surprise then that this department is unaware of the challenges faced by most of its entities.

 

This department does not have a chief financial officer and a similar trend can be observed in its entities where crucial funded positions are vacant or held by unqualified people who have been in acting positions for lengthy periods.

 

Crucial components of this department lack leadership, accountability, planning and co-ordination. Access to information offers access to economic and educational opportunities and there is a potential to significantly improve public service delivery across all corners of the country.

 

However, South Africa is lagging behind in providing equal access to fast, advanced broadband. And South Africa’s mobile services are amongst the expensive in the world. The voice calls and mobile data is a big concern for millions of South Africans who have to sacrifice basic necessities so that they can make a phone call or access internet.

 

South Africa spends almost 10% of gross domestic product, GDP, importing information communication technology, ICT, goods and services when it should be investing these funds on the creation of our own ICT industry which will range from infrastructure to us creating our own cell phones, laptops and tablets. Roll-out noun.

 

Then, there is a SA Post Office that has been plagued by scandal and corruption over the years. This is probably the most unstable entity and needs urgent intervention and expertise, but it’s still headed by an administrator. SA Post Office, Sapo, has not only exploited its workers in an unimaginable way, but there have also been billions of rands of taxpayer’s money embezzled through paying companies for unaccounted projects and services. The executive responsible for all fraud and corruption is yet to be held accountable.

 

The creation of this department was purely for rewarding ...

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member your time has now expired.

 

Dr H C CHEWANE: ... It was merely for rewarding the loyalists of the President. Therefore, the EFF does not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, I wish to raise only three issues today. Firstly, the IFP will oppose this Budget Vote because we believe the split of the former Department of Communications to a new department was unnecessary or a waste of taxpayer’s money and it has caused confusion and seemingly a turf war as well.

 

Secondly, we remain concerned about the instability at the SA Post Office. Spare a thought for those young students in deep rural areas whose dreams of achieving a tertiary education is fast fading because a Unisa study material has not been. And they simple do not have the means to access the internet.

Lastly, for years now the ruling party has been consulting a variety of stakeholders on how to expand the information communication technology, ICT, sector in our country. But the reality is that our country is now fast losing any sign of being competitive in the ICT space. We are falling behind other developing nations here on the African continent as well as in terms of our ICT rollouts and the sector’s contribution to our economy. It’s just really a good story to tell.

 

For as long as this department continues to hamper economic growth and for as long as we are not progressively expanding internet access to all our citizens, we cannot support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, let’s ask a question: What is happening to the postal services? Firstly, the SA Post Office, Sapo, is an example of a good institution gone bad. Suppliers have not been paid from August last year nor have Siemens and Santel. Letters are no longer sorted by machine. Have any of the suppliers been paid at all?

 

The National Development Plan, NDP, demands a superfast, robust, reliable, secure and affordable information communication technology, ICT, infrastructure and service.

The Minister of Finance, Mr Nene, has allocated R1,1 billion to the expansion of broadband connectivity. We don’t know how this money will be utilised. The company internet solutions is busy building the Cape Town to Johannesburg super internet highway using the INFENERA DTN-X platform. Will this be aligned with what government is strivingthriving for as we do not have a functioning Sapo nor do we have a faster and cheaper internet for all? Cope will not support this Budget Vote.

 

Ms M T KUBAYI: House Chair, firstly, let me explain the issue in terms of policy pronouncement. I think hon member Shinn has referred to the fact that the Minister has delayed in the policy pronouncement.

 

As the committee we have received a report from a panel of experts to show that government wanted to, prior to even doing any movement in terms of policy pronouncement, consult all stakeholders and that report has just been released and is available. And we are all aware that that process - the Minster in the committee has reflected that based on that report - because it gives a sense of what the sector is expecting so that government is not accused of moving into policy without consultation. So, I thought we would applaud the process of policy that is moving faster now.

On the issue of digital migration, it’s a fallacy to say that the split of the department has caused its lapse and delay. The delay has been caused by the private sector, especially, eTV, taking this government to court every time. We are not able to make progress on this because every time we want to move forward, the government is always in court.

 

The Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, NTT, in terms of digital migrations are ready. Sentech is sitting at 100%, 70% in Post Office, 80% with Universal Service and Agency of SA, USAASA. The set-top boxes in terms of the tender have gone down, the qualifying criteria have been finalised. As long as we are in court, we will not be able to finalise things. So, let all of us, as members, urge the private sector to stop taking government to court so that we can deliver.

 

On the issue of the Post Office, in terms of the way in which you are to look at it – yes, there have been challenges in the Post Office and it is this government ... I am not so sure what that member has been talking about.

 

The group chief executive officer is currently undergoing a disciplinary hearing in the department. The ANC-led government and the executive which is led by the Minister ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (M C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired.

 

Ms M T KUBAYI ... the ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Time expired.]

 

Question put.

 

Division demanded.

 

AYES – 199: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 94: America, D; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hlengwa, M; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mncwango, M A; Motau, S C; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nkomo, S J; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

APPROPRIATION BILL

 

Debate on Vote No 33 - Tourism

 

Mr J VOS: Mr Chairperson, although tourism in South Africa proves to be very profitable for people in some areas of our nation, there are so many obstacles facing our domestic and our international tourism markets as both of these markets are in decline. It must be our focus to ensure that tourism profits eventually trickle down to the poor.

 

Firstly, the implementation of the new travel and visa regulations for travellers is already proving to be a serious obstacle for people that want to visit our country, and the impact on our economy is severe. We have proof of this. Ultimately, the solution is to implement the electronic visas and biometrics on arrival, because we need to see the main tourist manifestation to our country.

 

Therefore, we call for a review or even better, a suspension of these favour regulations and we require no more double speaking from the government on this issue. Let’s avoid any further brand damage on our country as a destiny of choice for travel and trade. Secondly, the affordability and limited geographic spread are also some of the other negative factors that are impacting on our domestic market.

 

Travel and tourism is simply too expensive for South Africans, and deplorably, there are more than 700 municipal resorts that were identified as underutilised. This is really a pity, considering that these resorts are located in various small towns; they are built with taxpayer’s money and are consequently becoming a huge liability for these municipalities.

 

Clearly, there is a lack last to approach to turning around these places which if sorted out, could go a long way to boost domestic tourism. Having said this, the DA believes that tourism is critical for the long-term wellbeing and prosperity of our nation. Therefore, the DA supports this budget because there can be no better bridge to opportunity than tourism. Tourism expands opportunity that leads to more innovation and ultimately, that leads to more economic opportunities. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, the EFF rejects this Budget Vote because this ministry is too weak, man. It’s not fighting the Home Affairs Department with all its undoing of the tourism industry’s growth in this country and we have very proper information that the Minister responsible for this department disagrees with his impositions on visa restrictions, but they are too weak to impose them, even though they know that they are going to affect tourism.

 

The era of globalization means that our people across the world must have the freedom of movement. But the Home Affairs Department is undoing all these benefits yet again because of its securocratic measures imposed through visa restrictions. So, we’ve got securocrats in the Home Affairs Department undoing everything and all the progress in tourism.

 

The other crucial matter for why we do not support this vote is because; you keep taking tourists to destinations like Kruger National Park. You must rename Kruger National Park as it is named after a colonialist murderer. You take our people there to promote white supremacy. Kruger National Park must be renamed, and until so, we are not going to support this budget.

 

This means that by doing this you are taking our people to go and celebrate Kruger. Therefore, Kruger must fall even in the Kruger National Park. Twenty-one years after democracy, you still take our people to Kruger National Park. What a shame! The other question is about the workers in the hospitality industry; by the way most of them are paid through tips, and yet you are silent about that.

 

Most of them are employed through labour brokers; you are silent about that also. The EFF cannot support the tourism budget. It is based on a weak department that is saying nothing about the things that are affecting our tourism industry, particularly, the securitisation of the Home Affairs Department. Thank you. [Time expired.]

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chair, tourism is in crisis in South Africa because one day some bright spark woke up one morning and decided to impose a whole alarming stupid regulations which have today harmed the industry to the point that last year, the Ministers of Tourism and of Home Affairs came to this House and said that they’ve spoken about this and have arrived at the working conclusion, therefore they said, there will be no problems.

 

Fast forward to 2015, the Ministers of Tourism is up in arms because tourism is in crisis. Something must be done because the government cannot continue speaking from both sides of his mouth. One department agrees to have the regulations and yet tourism on the other side is struggling. Let us look at the bigger picture that, for as long these regulations are in place, we are going to face job losses; the industry is going to crumble and collapse to its knees; and Air China has already said that they are pulling their flights from all sorts of other reasons.

 

So, by the time we are through with this problem, South Africa will be in a serious problem. What I mean is that, I think you must wake up and smell the coffee! The government is struggling on daily basis to create jobs. The few jobs that are there are connived by yourselves because you’ve got incoherent policies and the water is as clear as mud in terms of what it is that you want to do about this.

 

Let us then be sober about these things and the Minister of Tourism must man up about at this point in time for the sake of the industry and for the sake of the people who needs jobs, who are desperate on a daily basis to keep their jobs. Therefore, speak to your colleagues in Cabinet and stop being afraid of them. Man up for the industry and prove yourself that you are competent for this department. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, can we have a clear answer as to whether tourism is going to take on home affairs over unabridged birth certificates issue?  Can we have a definite statement? The majority of South Africans have never enjoyed South Africa. Affordability is a very big issue. Cope urges the department to support the development of special and all inclusive packages, so that many more South Africans can see South Africa also.

 

Concessions on passenger tickets, free passes and affordable accommodation will encourage tourism like never before. The BBC offers a very valuable footage, travel guides, tips and articles from experts. The SABC must follow suit. Cope is indeed satisfied that 11 million tourists are expected to come here and spend R300 billion. That is very good; provide the visa regulations do not impact negatively. We need innovative thinking which is largely absent from the government at the moment. Cope urges the department to invest at least R500 million annually, in each 100 new rural tourism destinations. This will change the face of the tourism industry in our country. While much need to be done, Cope will support this one.

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): May I ask the parties that has not indicated on the list that they should timeously indicate that they want to make a declaration because it delays the process.

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Chair, it is very crucial that tourism be entrenched as a business especially among black people. There is a lot of good work being done in townships and rural areas by black people; it’s only that they need mentorship and coaching in order for them to entrench their businesses. Another issue that is very crucial is entrenching it among the traditional leaders, especially along the lines of cultural and ecotourism. The NFP would therefore support this budget.

 

Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: Chairperson, we as the ANC rise in support of Budget Vote 33 of the Department of Tourism. We support this budget because its outcome speaks to the importance of the brand awareness of South Africa as the tourist destination of choice. It places South Africa amongst the top 20 destinations in the world.

 

This budget also talks to the growth of tourism revenue contributing positively to the growth of our GDP. It also talks to the growth in domestic tourism and the quality assurance of domestic tourism products and their assurance, their quality and the value of the money that is spent by the tourists. Allow me, hon House Chair, to remind us that the budget that we talk about is appropriated to R1, 5 billion.

 

Despite these limited resources, the Department of Tourism has been able to spend it wisely and it has adhered to the Treasurer regulations and the Public Finance Management Act, PMFA, This is reflected on the unqualified audit opinion that this department has received. Moreover on the same vein, let us congratulate the department because it has got an award from the Auditor-General for its adherence to Treasury regulations and spending patterns that are commendable. [Applause.]

 

We are all in agreement, hon members that, tourism is one of the main top drivers and it creates economic growth. Therefore, it is incumbent upon all of us to ensure that tourism does flourish and its potential is maximised to our advantage. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Question put.

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Those in favour, say aye!

 

HON MEMBERS: Aye!

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Those against, will say no!

 

HON MEMBERS: No!

 

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The ayes have it!

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 279: Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Kock, K; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Esau, S; Faku, Z C; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Gamede, D D; Gana, S M; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mazzone, N W A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mbinda, L R; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mubu, K S; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Scheepers, M A; Selfe, J; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.
 

NOES – 12: Chewane, H; Dlamini, M M; Khawula, M S; Madisha, W M; Matshobeni, A; Maxon, H O; Mbatha, M S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 34 – Trade and Industry – put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, Napoleon said that in politics stupidity is not a handicap. I would like the hon Radebe to seriously consider that for the rest of this evening.

 

We do not believe that the department is paying sufficient attention to the promotion of exports as a country. The budget staffing and infrastructure are simply insufficient to promote exports and create jobs. While on the issue of trade, we have seen how the Minister nearly bungled Agoa, the African Growth and Opportunity Act, and if it wasn’t for Ambassador Faisal we might have been in serious trouble.

 

Another area of concern is that of the entities housed under the department. We have seen the disintegration of the CIPC, or the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, with former Commissioner Astrid Ludin telling the media how the Minister had actually tried to interfere in her work and had taken the side of the unions and not hers when she was trying to implement major reforms.

 

We have also seen the issue of the companies tribunal Commissioner, who took R180 000 and spent it on fruitless and wasteful expenditure. And what did the Minister do about it? Absolutely nothing.

We have also seen a perpetual cycle of uncertainty that Minister Davies continues to generate with bad laws: the Promotion and Protection of Investment Bill and the Licensing of Businesses Bill – all doing nothing to create any confidence.

 

And while we are on the issue of foreign direct investment, FDI, confidence, will the department please stop lying to the people of South Africa in telling them how we are rising in the FDI rankings. It is simply not true. We need to read the 2015 report and stop reading the 2014 report. We also can’t forget about the antics of our swearing, potty-mouthed Deputy Minister and his continual travels. We are not sure what he actually achieves in those.

 

The DA continues to remain gravely concerned about the department’s stance on beneficiation, which appears hellbent on focusing only on price discounts and raw minerals that will only lead to job losses. The DA does not support this budget. Thank you.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, in the past three decades the fastest growing economy in the world was China. It experienced the most rapid industrial expansion. At the centre of that was state participation in leading industry – not through throwing money into incentives and some black industrialists which is poorly conceptualised by hon Andile Mngxitama. It was through direct participation.

 

If you check the number of state-owned enterprises in China it includes the components of ship-building, steel, chemicals, locomotives and rolling stock. In a variety of critical sectors the state was playing a leading role in industrial expansion. We are not seeing that in South Africa. We are seeing government wanting to throw money at foreign companies, as is the case with ... [Inaudible.] ... R5 billion to the incentive programmes that mainly promote the automotive sector.

 

The other failure of this department is its inability to utilise procurement as an instrument for industrialisation. In your own manifesto, by the way, you say you are going to buy 75% of goods and services which are locally produced. You are not doing so; you do not have legislation about it. You do not have a plan in terms of how that is going to come about.

 

The other important component with regards to your trade promotions is your promotion of intra-African trade. I think there must be a clear programme. You must spend money in promoting businesses that do business on the continent and those that bring goods and services here - also considering practical interventions in terms of your tariff structure and customs on goods and services that come from the African continent, because the industrial expansion and development of South Africa can only be successful if the whole continent is developed. We are definitely not going to ... [Inaudible.] ... support the poorly conceptualised, poorly budgeted and poorly made Department of Trade and Industry. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, we are stagnating – with no meaningful growth in trade or industry. We are failing. I want to emphasise that.

 

In 2008, Prof Ricardo Hausmann of Harvard University encouraged South Africa to invest in the production of tradable goods to increase our export revenue, stimulate economic growth and address the high unemployment rate. He was of the view that as a country we had tended to focus on nontradable investment to meet growing domestic demand for durable goods.

 

In 2008, a panel advocated the development of new production techniques and products to drive export expansion and attain a competitive advantage. The NDP agrees with the panel’s recommendations. It emphasises the role of accelerated, inclusive economic growth that will reduce unemployment and inequality. Without genuinely activating the tradable sector, this goal will remain unrealised.

 

And I want to emphasise that thus far we have not been able to realise very many issues that have put there that will be able to take our country forward in so far as this particular department is concerned. We therefore cannot agree at the moment with the budget.

 

Mr N T GODI: House Chair, the APC has consistently stated its position on the central role the state must play in our economy, both from an ideological and a realist point of view.

 

However, we want to raise a recent issue of the African Growth and Opportunity Act, which was recently concluded in exchange for the import of American poultry into South Africa. We remain sceptical about whether it was in our strategic interest to be included in Agoa at the expense of our own poultry industry, in that for quite some time we have had a dispute with our comrades from Brazil on the same issue.

 

Now we have succumbed to the Americans, whether through blackmail or through strategic miscalculation we are not sure. We understand that this is going to lead to job losses or actually the destruction of the poultry industry, especially the emerging role-players who are now going to be subcontracted to process and package American chicken.

 

The APC would be happy if the Minister were to come to the House and make a statement so as to give us more details, and for the House to debate this issue to check if indeed South Africa’s interests were properly safeguarded in this respect. Anything with America one has to be very sceptical about.

 

Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Chair, the industrial policy that is supported by this budget has supported the continuation of a colonial economy. The automotive industry grant has not facilitated innovation in this country. Instead, it pays foreign companies to continue exerting the colonial hegemony on the national market.

 

We are sending taxpayers’ money to Germany and Japan. Companies from this country are not effectively supported. The PAC is concerned about the deregistration of many companies by the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, or the CIPC, for annual returns. The purpose is to frustrate underdeveloped businesses, which are mainly owned by Africans. The PAC does not support this budget.

 

Ms J L FUBBS: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports this R9,6 billion budget because it is a productive budget. I have never heard of any statistician who measures a year after four or six months. So that is a new one for me. [Interjections.]

 

If I can point out: What are we striving to do? [Interjections.] The ANC is moving away from a commodity-driven economy to actually one that is higher up the value chain. We’re no longer going to be dictated to by the commodity supercycle – no longer. We are adding value; we are beneficiating it.

 

Recently, minerals and energy actually made it clear that in this beneficiation strategy of theirs, they are going to be promoting with incentives that we will be contributing to, to ensure that production plants are next to where they are being mined – not 200km or 400km away.

 

The confidence that foreign direct investors have has gone up to 45%. [Interjections.] Well, of course ... [Inaudible.] ... those who make the most noise, we know how that noise is created.

 

Regarding broad-based black economic empowerment, or BBBEE, this ANC government is determined to drive radical economic transformation ... [Interjections.] ... using localisation and procurement. We saw this recently in the long-term loan that China gave us – R30 billion. In fact, it was JP Morgan who said, “There’s confidence for you – a long-term loan,” building more than so many locomotives ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired.

 

Ms J L FUBBS: Yes. Well, they don’t want to hear the good news, do they? Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 210: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 81: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mbinda, L R; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Speaker, the recent opportunity by the governing party to completely scrap the e-toll system which the majority of the public overwhelmingly have called for, seeks the tone for this Budget consideration. Even in acknowledging that the majority of our citizens spend more than 40% of the income just to get to work, the largest potion of this Budget continues to be allocated to roads and roads related activities and entities.

 

Larger portions of the budget need to go to rail development which should be the backbone of the public transport system. Proven programmes that reduce road crisis are ignored and substituted with sloppy campaigns in an attempt to curb the shocking ongoing road carnage. Media headlines on the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, Prodiba,, National Traffic Information System,  eNatis, Tasima, Road accident fund, South African National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, Road Traffic Management Corporation and other embarrassments are illustrative of the general lack of and reckless regard for administrative discipline and accounting principles. Since we in the DA measured the success of service delivery towards citizens based on the values of freedom, fairness and opportunity we cannot support this Budget Vote.

 

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Chairperson, the EFF rejects this Budget. You impose the e-toll on Gauteng motorists; the department should be speaking about the total eradication of e-tolls and their fees and not only the reduction thereof. No one must profit out of our roads as it bothers on the infringement of freedom of movement. E-tolls are modern days Dom passes and should be removed immediately.

 

Vho T E MULAUDZI: U swika zwino phesenthe ya mahumi maṱanu ya dzibada dzashu ndi ine ya vha ya tshigonṱiri, fhedzi ngei Limpopo phesenthe ya mahumi mararu ya dzibada hedzi dzine dza vha na tshigonṱiri dzi na madindi hoṱhe. Ndi madindi hoṱhe. Dzi ita uri hu vhe na dzikhombo nahone dziṅwe dzibada a dzi na tshigonṱiri. Vho Eastern Cape, vho KwaZulu-Natal ... (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr T E MULAUDZI: So far 50% of our roads are tarred but in Limpopo 30% of these roads are full of potholes. Potholes everywhere you go. They are the main cause of accidents. In the Eastern Cape, in KwaZulu-Natal ...]

 

... there are no access roads. Our country needs quality roads and effective railway infrastructure. Families are being evicted for the sake of the Bus Rapid Transport system and the solution that come at the expense of the poor lives of the people are not even worth the paper they are written on.

 

Mabufho ashu hafha haho kha tshiimo tshavhuḓi fhedzi muhasho u khou ṱoḓa u fhedza rannda dza biḽioni 2 u tshi khou renga mabufho ane a ḓura a Muphuresidennde na Dziminisiṱa. Zwo ralo riṋe ri khou ri a ri khou ṱanganedza hoyu Mugaganyagwama. Ndaa! (Translation of Tshivenda paragraph follows.)

 

[Our airplanes are not in good condition but the department wants to spend R2 billion on expensive jets for the President and Ministers. Based on these, we reject this Budget. Thank you!]

 

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, first of all, the IFP supports the Budget Vote with the following observations: The people of Gauteng have spoken loud and clear that they don’t want the e-tolls. There are no negotiations about the e-tolls because there need to be no reductions in the fees. Under this new deal, motorists will have to settle outstanding fees before their cars licenses discs could be renewed which will in all, probably, only achieved the negative effort of there being more unlicensed vehicles on the road.

 

This is just another kind of torture for the people of Gauteng.

 

Zonke izethulo zekhomishana laseGauteng zithi aziwafuni ama-etolls. Ngisho nabo abethuli be-ANC bathi abawafuni, sesingasho okunye nje uma siqhutshwa yipolitiki yendlala. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[All submissions from the commission in Gauteng stated that they do not want the e-tolls. Even those who presented on behalf of the ANC stated that they do not want it, we might just say something else because we are forced by the politics of the stomach.]

 

The road maintenance backlog is another issue with approximately R150 billion being required to achieve this. The ongoing delay regarding the issues of taxi permits is unacceptable. Municipalities are enforcing their own monopolies on public transport roads by purposely delaying the issues of extremely expensive taxi permits. This must be investigated and all these backlogs for permits must be processed as a matter of urgency. Thank you.

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, the NFP laments the state of transport in South Africa. Our public transport with its heavy reliance on mini bus taxis, unacceptable high rate of road accident deaths and overall deterioration of our roads network are old issues that give rise to concern. The NFP is also concerned about the lack of a viable scholar transport policy which the Department of Basic Education has been tasked to draft. This draft policy has been delayed and it is evident that the Department of Transport has not made any meaningful input in its formulation as was expected.

 

We also, in addition to the concerns we have raised, like to see the Department of Transport investigating ... [Interjections.] ... innovative ways to increase the use of our rail infrastructure to promote rail freight; and in doing so, alleviate the pressure of large trucks on our roads and the damage these vehicles do to the road surfaces. The NFP supports the Budget. I thank you.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Ramifications to the road transportation industry are massive. Cope is very dissatisfied with the whole e-tolling saga as well as Sanral’s refusal to disclose tolling details both throughout the country and, in particular, here in the Western Cape. The government cannot have petrol levies and e-tolls at the same time. That is double taxation and as such it is a tyranny.

 

The second point I wish to raise is that of freight on our roads. For years we have heard promises of rail haulage coming to the fore in order to shift the balance from road to rail. When are we going to see results in this regard?

 

The third issue is that of deaths on our roads. No measure that the government has taken has yielded a desirable outcome. The costs of travelling is an enormous burden on the majority of workers who earn too little to meet the daily cost of travelling. Many workers pay up to 20% of their wages on taxi fares but at the same time they are forced to pay tollgates levies. Our roads are not being properly managed and too much freight is going on - when we talk about the roads.

 

There is a great deal of failure ... [Interjections. [Inaudible.] [Time expired.] Thank you.

 

Mr N T GODI: House Chairperson, I have three issues, firstly, is the issue of road accidents; we would like to encourage the department to invigorate this campaign of awareness which we acknowledge that it cannot be fulfilled by the department alone. It is a responsibility of all of us because road accidents does not cost us lives only, but also the economy. The continued increase in the road accident fund levy increases the price of petrol which in turn affects everything else in the value chain.

 

We are also concerned about reports on poor management or the state of the finances in the road accident fund which in the past has had problems – it was sorted out – we thought it was fixed and was going to be sustained but it does appear that there are challenges once again.

 

Secondly, we are satisfied that the Prodiba contract issue has finally come to an end. It is an issue that Parliament had to engage in over a period of time and we are not convinced that it was handled in a proper way.

 

Lastly, it is the issue of public transport. The majority of our people, as you know, use taxis for their travelling. However, the sense of the APC is almost as if the state is out there to emasculate the taxis because everywhere you go, if you find traffic cops they are there waiting for taxi drivers. You hardly find buses been stopped and yet if you drive down Moloto Road from Pretoria to Mpumalanga you are most slightly to find a Putco bus stuck somewhere. These buses are being subsided by government and yet mini bus taxis ... [Time expired.]

 

Mrs D P MAGADZI: Chairperson, listening is a skill. This afternoon, the Deputy President indicated that with regard to the e-tolls, buses and taxis are exempted. I think the leader of Cope should learn to listen and listen attentively. Having said that, the ANC supports this Budget as it is a tool that will be used for infrastructure development, as we are moving South Africa forward.

 

The department, through a number of state-owned enterprises is able to do a good work. Therefore, we want to applaud the SA Civil Aviation Authority - Air Traffic and Navigation Services, that have won the international awards to show that “siyaquba”. I also want to indicate that through Prasa and Sanral Moloto rail and Moloto road will be developed in this financial year. Money has been put forward. It is not just talk but we walk the talk.

 

The ANC is proud that as we are talking, the Minister of Transport in the Republic of South Africa has been given the confidence and the vote of confidence that we must develop coaches and locomotives for Southern African Development Community region so that we can be able to take South Africa forward but also move Africa to the next level. That is why Transnet has worked with China for an amount of R30 billion which will actually be invested in to doing that. Supporting this Budget Vote, we are saying that public transport ... [time expired.] The ANC supports the Budget Vote.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Chair, in support of the Budget we wish to draw the attention of the department to the following factors, with regard to transport economics strongly suggest that transport economics be stressed such that there are more blacks who are into it. That will stress the value chain vertically as well as horizontally and they could better control the industry.

 

The railway between Mthatha and Durban is critical. The effect thereof is that the road link between these two cities will have less to carry and the goods will get to Mthatha and the whole of the upper part of old Transkei at a much lesser cost than it is happening at the moment.

 

Thirdly, transformation in this sector needs to be driven by empowering the intended beneficiaries. The other factor that is impacting on our lives is the issue of the rampant bribery for people to get licenses. Sometimes you see people who drive as if they have never been tested at all. I have discussed the matter with the Deputy Minister of Transport before and plans need to be put in place in order to lessen this. Our roads continues to be very unsafe as a result of people who bribe their way to get their driver’s licenses. I thank you.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, on a point of order: We are on Budget Vote 35 and we have not heard any contribution from Agang SA. I propose that they must be released from the House. Since yesterday Agang SA has not said anything ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... declaration, really the public funds are being wasted. I think we must release members of Agang SA to go home.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ndlozi, they have the right to remain silent and they are exercising that right.

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Point of order Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no. Hon member! Please, if you wanted to make a declaration you could have do so. What is your point of order?

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I don’t want to make a declaration, I propose that hon Ndlozi ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am not asking for proposals.

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: ... he must join Generation. I think he will be better there.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member you are out of order as well. Hon members I put the question and I put the Vote again. Are there any objections? Order! There are objections. I put the question, those in favour will say aye.

 

Hon MEMBERS: Aye.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Those against will say no.

 

Hon MEMBERS: No.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The ayes have it.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 213: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 82: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.

 

Declarations of Vote:

Ms T E BAKER: Chairperson, underperformance, inadequate oversight, underexpenditure, lack of capacity and irregularities in awarding of contracts, none of these bring dignity to our people. For this reason, the DA cannot support this budget.

 

Bucket toilet eradication is the target that this department had consistently missed. First in 2007, then in 2014 and the new target has now been set for 2019. Slim chance is of this ever happening especially considering the R389 million roll over request for this programme.

 

For the past year, department reports tell us that there are 88 000 bucket toilets still in existence. Last month, the Minister told us that there are 27 000. Yesterday, responses to written questions told us that there are 58 000.This morning the department told us that there are still verifying the location and the number. Who are we to believe? Who are we to trust?

 

Skills shortage is another headache that plagued this department with the learning academy being underfunded hence the large vacancy rate that we have in the country.

 

Severe water pollution is pushing up the cost of cleansing our water and yet there are no strategies in place to deal with this pollution. Consumers must just pay more for our water.

 

Hon Chair, a shift of funds will not assist Vote 36 in achieving its objectives. Clearly, a shift of votes in the direction of the DA is the only hope. “Siyeza 2016. I DA iyeza.” [We are coming in 2016. The DA is coming] [Applause.]

 

Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngicela nithule nithi du. [Uhleko.] hhayi-ke asisisekeli lesi Sabelomali, [Ubuwelewele.] ngoba lo-mnyango uyehluleko ukunikeza abantu amanzi. EMothothlung umphakathi wakhona uze wangena emgwaqeni ufuna amanzi nalapho wanikezwa amanzi angcolile. Ngicela ulalele njalo Ngqongqoshe. eMpumalanga Kapa umphakathi wakhona usuneminyaka emithathu amanzi ungawazi. [Ubuwelewele.] KwaMaphumulo, Ekuthandaneni, izingane zakhona ezifundayo azinawo amanzi zoze zilindele izinkomo zikaMongameli uZuma zisuthe amanzike bese kuza amanzi kuzona. [Ihlombe.] [Ubuwelewele.]

 

Lezi zindawo ezintathu zikhombisa ngokusobala ukuthi ngezinye engihlezi ngikhala ngazo. Mina ngokwami bengithi uNgqongqoshe ngoba ukhombisa ngempela ukuthi akanankinga nabantu into ayaziyo kuphela ukuzovikela uMongameli uMsholozi la ngaphakathi ukuthi kungaphenywa indaba yeNkandla laphayana. Ngaleyondlela besizocela ukuthi uke ucabangele umphakathi, amanzi. Ngqongqoshe ufakazi nangu phambi kwakho. Abantu abanawo amanzi kulezi zindawo engizibalayo, zintsha kuwena? Asikhulumi indaba yenzwabethi. Ngaleyondlela asisiboni lesi sabelomali ukuthi sizofika kubantu.

 

Sosivumela lesi sabelomali ngesikhathi sesibona siya kubantu. Sikhathele abantu bezoshaya itoyi toyi mese nibahubha ngamaphoyisa ngapha nithi bashayelani ama toyi toyi bebe belwela amalungelo abo. Ncamashi, ncamashi njengoHulumeni wakudala, nina nedlulele kakhulu, kakhulu, ngihlale nginitshela ukuthi manje ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: Please shut up [Laughter.]. We do not support this Budget Vote [Interjections.] because this department is failing to provide people with water. The Mothothlung community had to go on a protest in order for them to get water nevertheless it was dirty water. Please listen, Minister. A community from the Eastern Cape has gone for three years without water. [Interjections.]Schooling children from Maphumulo and Ekuthandaneni don’t have water. They will have to wait for President Zuma’s cattle to drink and be satisfied before the water is provided for them. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

These three arears, if you take note, are those that I always complain about. Personally I would suggest that since the Minister has shown no interest with regard to the people the only thing he’s good at is to defend President Msholozi so that his Nkandla matter is not investigated. We plead with you to be considerate of the people when it comes to the provision of water. Minister, the evidence is before you. People don’t have water in the arears that I’ve mentioned, is the plight of those arears new to you? We are not speaking of a hearsay. In that case we do not support this Budget Vote because it doesn’t reach the people. We will support this Budget Vote when we see it going to the people. We are fed up with people who go on protests and then you attack them with police and question why they are protesting whereas they are fighting for their rights. You’re the same as the former government, you are worse, too worse, I always tell you that ... [Time expired.]]

 

This is the time,

 

I-EFF isikhona, qaphelani u-2016 ufikile, ngo-2019 siyathatha siyobe sihlezi ngapha. Nina nonke niyaphuma. Yimi uNgqongqoshe Wezamanzi. [Ihlombe] [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[The EFF is here, watch out 2016 is here, in 2019 we are taking over, we will be sitting on this side. All of you are going. I’ll be the Minister of Water Affairs. [Applause] [Laughter.] [Interjections.]]

 

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, there is too much noise in the Chamber. I will wait for you until you are quiet so that we can continue with the business.

 

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: House Chairperson, for practical reasons the IFP supports Vote 36. But beyond that support what more should I say other than what I have said in the committees during the Budget Vote debate.  Our leader is used to explain the meaning of the word madness - insanity. Insanity means keeping doing things in the same way but expecting different results. We have spoken about so many things when the Minister and the Deputy Minister were at our meetings.

 

Hon Chairperson, Namuhla ngicela ukucela izinto ezimbili, ngebhadi ikomanisi lami laphayana alikho umhlonishwa uManamela olapha ehhovisini likaMongameli, bengizocela izinto ezimbili. Okokuqala ukuthi asicelele laphayana kuNgqongqoshe ngenkathi enza umsebenzi wakhe wokuHlola nokuHlaziya, asicelele ukuthi hawu nangu uMpontshane uselokho ecele izikhathi ezibekiwe ukuthi lezimpompi esezoma zingaphumi amanzi iminyaka eminti, izikhathi ezibekiwe ukuthi amanzi azobuya nini, akasitshele phela uNgqongqoshe ngoba mina sengehlulekile ngicela izikhathi ezibekiwe.

 

Okwesibili engicela ikomanisi lami lingenzele khona ukuthi lingibuzele la kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi hawu kwenzenjani, unyaka nonyaka kwabakhona i-underspending? Anike nizwe, anike nizwe. Ngonyaka ka-2014 kuya ku-2015 uMnyango usebenzise kuphela ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[Today I would like to request two things, unfortunately my communist from the Presidency Manamela is not present, I was going to request two things. Firstly, for him to request on our behalf to the Minister when he is doing his oversight, Mpontshana has asked for timeframes with regard to those dry taps that have not had water for years. When are they going to have water coming out of them? The Minister must tell us because I have asked for the timeframes and I have failed.

Secondly, I would like my communist to ask the Minister, on my behalf, what is the problem; why is there underspending year in and year out? Listen to this. Between 2014 and 2015 the department only spent ...]

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, in as much as the NFP supports the budget for Transport department as we did in our portfolio committee, the NFP is on record expressing an alarm at the looming waste water shortage which our country might face by 2020 which experts believe might enclaves the current energy crisis in its multitude and impact. People can still survive without electricity, but not without water. In the absence of building new dams, we believe that the Department of Water and Sanitation is not investing enough in its resources in maintenance of existing infrastructure neither is it making any visible and viable effort to involve communities in water management of our existing water resources.

 

We do, however, commend the department for its objective of eradicating the bucket toilet system which strikes at the dignity of people and urge all role-players to work tirelessly to achieve this goal. We also call upon the Minister of Water and Sanitation to work tirelessly to prevent underspending in this department and this will assist to prevent the protests of none water and sanitation delivery. “Kona kuya beda ngempela nga manzi” [It’s terrible]. We support the budget. Thank you.

 

Mr L R MBINDA: Chairperson, the PAC does not support this budget. Our people in North West have been protesting for years without anyone listening or resolving the water problems. The PAC does not accept the excuses that those incidents are the faults of the municipality.

 

We state further that public taxes are misused by paying scams of water delivery companies. Furthermore, the PAC has noted with pleasure the expansion of driving of water to rural communities, but there is no movement in providing water for food production.

 

Sanitation remains a nightmare in rural areas compounded by the ever promise of elimination of bucket toilet system in the African suburbs. That is why I think there was a march last week on 03 in the Buffalo City for the same problem.

 

Mr N T GODI: House Chairperson, in terms of configuration the department new, but it deals with old problems - problem of sanitation which affects primarily poor communities in the slums and rural areas. We support the noble objective of eradicating the dehumanising bucket system. However our concern is the fact that in 2006, President Mbeki during the state of the nation address declared that the bucket system was going to be eradicated. Until today it has not been and the problem is not financing, but it is underspending or capacity. So we would like to urge that we need to ensure that there is capacity so that our people could be taken off this system.

 

Second, is the issue of water provision. We understand South Africa is a water scarce country, but we the APC do not think that the department as well as municipalities are doing enough to educate our people about the importance of conserving water – the little that is able to reach people. We think more need to be done to educate people that water does not just come out of the tap, but there is a long process and there is a long of money involved to take water from a river to their doorsteps. The APC supports the budget. [Applause.]

 

Mr M JOHNSON: Chairperson, I am enjoying the fresh look of those who were wearing the red regalia. At least now they are in their normal gear for work. The ANC supports this R13 500 billion appropriation. In supporting Vote 36, the committee unanimously endorsed this budget. We do so aware of the changes that have taken place since 1994.

 

Going and visiting Alice where in 1978 water gave me diarrhoea, going back there again in 1996, I drank from the tap.

 

The ANC remains accountable and transparent to the people of South Africa. Some of us who came to this prestigious institution of our people in the name of one million voters must be warned. If they thought that they were going to take Nelson Mandela Metro by storm only to attract a few number of children mixed with a handful of adults on 01 May. The writing is on the wall. Take a leaf from Cope.

 

By saying no to this developmental budget you are saying to the people of South Africa no to development and social progress. You are saying to those of our people in need of housing in Matatiele, you are saying not in this financial year. You are telling the people of Marikana that no to water and sanitation in this financial year. By saying no you are telling the old and sick people of Eldorado Park that “wag net n bikkie ons is besig met die ander goetes” [wait a little bit we are busy with other things] your grants must not be increased. Shame on you to those who say no to a programme that seeks to advance an agenda of gender equity and woman emancipation.

 

You don’t have to look far in seeing underdevelopment in the Western Cape. The ANC government shall again come and in and salvage you in your neglect of the so-called coloured community and...[Time expired.] We are on track in driving this new development in the right direction. Water is life. [Time expired.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Chair, I am very glad that today I saw the former president of the youth league, Lulu Johnson. I was wondering... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?

 

Ms H O MAXON: The point of order is that why Lulu Johnson was not considered to be one of the Minister as the former ANC ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 213: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zulu, L D.

 

NOES – 84: Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mbinda, L R; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote No 37 - Arts and Culture – put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr M W RABOTAPI: Hon House Chair, the DA is very much concerned with the way in which some entities are being managed by this department. We want the Minister to bring order and synergy to the entities that fall under the department with specific reference to PanSalb, national language services and the linguistic rights unit, get the department’s financial management up to scratch, articulate a clear strategy to advance the arts in South Africa, stop employing cadres who have little knowledge. We can create a better South Africa through arts. I thank you.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon House Chairperson, we reject this Budget Vote because the Minister has not unleashed the artistic literacy and cultural creativity and voice of the African child. There is no plan to deliver the enslavement of thousands of music artists from the exploitation of record companies that use their talents and leave them poor and in emotional distress. There is no working plan to aggressively work on creating a local recording company with a state of the art recording studio and distributors to stop dependency on multinational music companies.

 

This Ministry has held an apologetic consultative conference on the removal of colonial and apartheid statues and symbols, instead of removing them and asking what should we replace them with. It must be non-negotiable to remove offensive colonial monuments that celebrate mass murderers, racists and thieves. There is no negotiation on the removal of colonial statues. All apartheid statues must fall because they continue to promote white supremacy. They make racist white people to think that they are superior and untouchable. We reject this Budget Vote and above all, it has no plan to culturally and artistically promote the return of South Africa which is the same imperialist force at the moment to the African continent since its cultural artistic symbolic annexation during colonial and apartheid times.

 

You know, the Minister running this department is actually a very good comrade, but he is always mismatched. He presided over the killings at Marikana. We thought when he came here he was going to make sure that Marikana workers are compensated, instead of coming into this department and presiding over the massacre of statues. He is egg-walking around the colonial statues instead of making sure that they are eradicated.

 

We reject this Budget Vote because Botha and Queen Victoria are still standing in this Parliament. What a shame! Twenty one years into democracy, you are still sending delegations to request the removal of statues. [Interjections.] You call yourselves heroes and struggle veterans and hon ... [Inaudible.]. Imagine! Colonial statues must fall and there must be no negotiation so we cannot support a Budget Vote that makes an apology about that question. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Chairperson, the R4 billion that the department has, must generate positive and significant spill over effects in the economy. Cope wishes to see government converting discarded buildings into workshops for unique arts and craft. We must emulate Ouagadougou, for example, in Burkina Faso and create manufacturing hubs for creative and skilled families.

 

The department must indeed bring the best practices from elsewhere in the world to develop South African arts, culture and heritage to sustain a socially cohesive and democratic nation. The department, through the South African Heritage Resource Agency must proactively declare protected areas. Developers must not be required to do the heritage exercise. This is stifling development. Cope wants the process reversed.

 

According to Daily News in Miami, for example, many cities of the world are transforming into baskets and melting pots of culture. We, too, want to see culturally and racially diverse people creating new and integrated communities in our cities. Although much remains to be done, I want to say that Cope will support this one.

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chair, we have three fundamental things that we want to bring to the fore. Firstly, the department must take strides to ensure that talent is unearthed and developed so that many of our artists benefit from their talent. The NFP is worried that most of our musicians die as paupers. I think the department must enforce legislation so that our musicians benefit from their music and they do not die in despair and as paupers.

 

Secondly, when you go to areas like Msinga and Ngwelezane, for instance, in those rural areas you will find people who are very talented. The department must take strides to ensure that those people are developed and their talent is unearthed and they are able to fend for themselves using their talent.

Lastly, we have consultants who are benefitting from the talents of our musicians. The department must enforce legislation because these consultants are masquerading as project managers, but at the end of the day musicians and other artists benefit nothing from that. These are the concerns that we want to bring to the fore as the NFP. Having said that, we will support the budget.

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Chair, even as one might be tempted to say let the statues fall, one needs to ask oneself whose culture is it to recognise people through statues. When you answer that question, you need to ask yourself another question which is: Whose values will those people be representing? Will it be values of a given political party or will it be truly values of the whole nation? History tends to repeat itself. What is happening now, those who put those statues never foresaw that there could be a change of government leading to the fall of the statues. So, we need to think carefully about how we get them down. Thank you.

 

Mr N T GODI: Hon House Chairperson, the APC will support this budget. However, we want to ask the question, which culture, whose culture? It was the Jamaican and great Pan-Africanist, the honourable Marcus Mosaih Garvey, who said that a people without the knowledge of their past history and culture are like a tree without roots. Today, in our country the indigens, who constitute 80% of this population, are a cultural minority. Why? That is so because colonialism was not only satisfied with political subjugation and economic exploitation, but also with the distortion of the history and the culture of the oppressed.

 

Beyond 1994, to what extent have we consciously sought to project the African personality, as Nkrumah said, to ensure that the culture of the majority is not merely tolerated and taken as a poor cousin of the norms and values that inform our society? So, as the APC we want to stress that maybe the question is: Beyond 1994, was it Africanism or nonracialism? Is there a contradiction between Africanism and nonracialism? We think not.

 

Nonracialism has been an integral part of the way of life of the African people as the colonialists themselves had experienced whenever they came to Africa. They were never enslaved, thrown out or ill-treated, but were welcome. So, as the APC, we believe that liberation that does not restore the depersonalised nature of the African people will not be complete. We will have political rights, but who are we. Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery. None but ourselves could free our minds. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr L R MBINDA: PAC Hon Chair, the PAC supports this budget, but with concerns, of course. The South African history tells a story that apartheid was declared a crime against humanity, whilst its perpetrators are still being celebrated by statues, roads and city names. We are saying there cannot be a crime without a criminal.

 

The department should respect and uphold its mandate. Their actions are denying the youth understanding of the truth. If you distort the truth, like the racist regime used to do, then you are misleading them. Distortion, I’m still saying, is tantamount to treason. On 16 June, we will be celebrating what we call Youth Day. I don’t understand why it is dedicated to youth because uncle Zeph, the second president of the PAC, ... [Interjections.] ... agitated the students to fight against Bantu education and Afrikaans because they wanted to use Afrikaans as a medium of instruction. So, we must tell the truth that it is not youth day. It should be linked to students. Thank you very much. This is a free lecture again.

 

Ms X S TOM: Siyabulela, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo. Zisuka nje masitsho ukuba i-ANC iyaluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. Eli sebe njengokuba sihlala sisitsho linikwe uxanduva olungummangaliso, uxanduva lokubuyisa ubuntu bethu kunye noxanduva lokubuyisa inkcubeko eyahluthwa ngolunya kuthi. Le nto ke ayisoze ikwazi ukwenzeka xa abantu bengasebenzisani. Yiyo loo nto isebe eli lithatha igunya kwiSicwangciso soPhuhliso seSizwe kwisahluko se-15 apho kuthethwa ngenguqu ekuhlaleni ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

 

[We thank you, hon Chairperson. Let us start by saying that the ANC supports the budget vote. This department as we always say, has been given a huge responsibility, the responsibility to restore our humanity and the responsibility to restore our culture which we were deprived of forcefully. This will never happen if people do not work together. That is why this department takes its mandate from the National Development Plan, chapter 15, where the issue of social transformation is mentioned ...]

 

... transforming society and uniting the country.

 

Ngumsebenzi onzima ke lo, kuba kaloku kukho abantu abantlantlu-mbini. Uhlobo lokuqala ngabantu abazibona bona bengabantu abangcono kuze kubekho uhlobo lwabantu abazibona bengento. Loo nto ithetha ukuba isebe malidibanise ezi ntlantlu zoluntu. Ezi zinto zithethwe apha ngamaqela ezopolitiko zonke ziyinyaniso zokuba bukhona ubunzima kweli sebe. Amacandelo alawulwa lisebe aliqela, loo nto ke siyikomiti silixelele isebe ukuba malibe ngathi liyagxila ukujonga la macandelo kuba uhlahlo-lwabiwo oluninzi luya kuwo. Siyaluxhasa uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. [Kwaphela ixesha.] (Translation of isiXhosa translation follows.)

 

[This is a difficult work, because there are two types of people. The first type are people who think that they are better and those who see themselves as nonentities. That means the department must bring together these two types of people. All these things that were mentioned here by the political parties, that there are difficulties in this department, are true. There are many sections which are managed by the department, and we as the committee told the department that they must focus more on these sections because the biggest portion of the budget goes to them. We support the budget vote. [Time expired.]]

 

Question put.

 

Division demanded.

 

AYES – 283: Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Capa, N; Cardo, M J; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Esau, S; Faku, Z C; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gana, S M; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malatsi, M S; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbhele, Z N; Mbinda, L R; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mubu, K S; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Scheepers, M A; Selfe, J; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Whitfield, A G; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T.

 

NOES – 11: Chewane, H; Dlamini, M M; Khawula, M S; Matlhoko, A M; Maxon, H O; Mbatha, M S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F.

 

ABSTAIN – 1: Bagraim, M.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 38 – Human Settlements – put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Declarations of vote:

Mr S M GANA: Mutshamaxitulu, vahlonipheki va Huvo, ndzi twa van’wana va vula leswaku hakunene hina van’wana hi vulavula Xitsonga. [Chairperson, hon members of the House, I have heard others say that indeed some of us speak Xitsonga.]

 

At this moment we are asked to approve the budget of the Department of Human Settlements, a department that has done everything but improve the settlement patterns in South Africa.

 

Approving this budget will mean, one, that the people in informal settlements will continue living in the same conditions without proper services being installed; two, that provinces such as the Free State will continue spending R1,4 million to build one emergency house without any consequences; three, that millions and millions of rand will continue to be spent on fixing shoddily built houses in the name of rectification; four, that the municipalities of Johannesburg and Tshwane for example – hon Masondo, you know this very well – will continue to underspend their year’s digit budget meant for informal settlement upgrades; five, that subsidy houses will continue to be built far away from economic centres, thus entrenching apartheid spatial patterns; and, six, that the houses built as part of your hostel upgrades will continue to stand empty for more than eight years, like those in Soweto and Kagiso – they have been standing empty, hon Mokonyane, hon Mashatile, hon Masondo and hon Mmemzi.

 

Approving this budget will mean that RDP housing recipients will continue to be locked in for eight years before they can sell their houses.

 

I have to say that I cannot, with a clear conscience, support this budget. The South African people deserve much better than this, and as the DA we reject this budget. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Modulasetulo, ga re ikamaganye le tekanyetsokabo e. Tekanyetsokabo e ya bogareng, maitlhomo a yona a lebisitse mo go ageng dintlo di le 1.5 milione mo dingwageng di le tlhano tse di latelang. Le fa gole jalo, tlhaelo ya kago ya dintlo mo ditoropong le mo ditorotswaneng e gola ka lebelo le legolo. E gola ka lebelo le le kana ka dintlo dile 978 000 ka ngwaga. Se se raya gore le fa go agiwa dintlo di le 1.5 milione mo dingwageng di le tlhano tse di tlang, baagi ba rona ba ba kana ka milione le go feta ba tla bo ba se na matlo.

 

Go tloga ka ngwaga wa 1994, puso ya ANC e ikaya gore e agile dintlo di le dimilione di le 4, mme nnete ke gore ke dintlo di le 2.835  milione fela tse ba di fitlheletseng. Go le 903 000 fela tse di tlametsweng ka metsi, kgelelo ya leswe le motlakase. Rona ga re ikamaganye le tekanyetsokabo e ya dinoga tse di robetseng. (Translation of Setswana speech follows.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Chairperson, we don’t support this budget. The aim of this medium term budget is to build 1.5 million houses in the next five years. Nevertheless, the shortage of houses in towns and townships is growing at an alarming rate of 978 000 per year. This means that, even if 1.5 million houses were to be built in the next five years, more than a million of our citizens will still be without houses.

 

Since 1994, the ANC-led government has been saying that it has built four million houses, however, the truth is they managed to produce only 2835 million houses of which 903000 have running water, sanitation and electricity. We don’t support this budget. It belongs to people who cannot be trusted.]

 

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, this department still has no policy whatsoever to deal with the issue of back-yard dwellers. It has been promising to eradicate back-yard dwellers since 2007, yet we always hear another story and have another delay, while the situation on the ground gets worse and worse. Minister, where is the comprehensive strategy to eradicate back-yard dwellers?

 

Our hostels are another concern. The Minister recently advised of the department’s intention to gradually abolish hostels. This is an ineffective strategy. It will not work, and it should not be done. Why doesn’t the Minister rather concentrate on making hostels livable dwellings for people?

 

Hostels, such as Dube, Mzimhlope, Kagiso, Jabulani and Diepkloof, have been under construction for more than 10 years, yet there have been no allocations. In the Kagiso hostel, for example, 11 people have died while living in temporary structures. Since 2005, people have been promised that they would be allocated to their original hostels but up until today, nothing has been done. The latest development of abolishing hostels is just an attempt to cover up government failings.

 

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, it is a fact and cannot be denied that our people still need houses. The housing target of 1,5 million units by 2019, which the Minister has set, seems to be an achievable goal and is welcomed, but will require bold political leadership. The rate of construction progress must be closely monitored, and the Minister must be informed immediately whenever the monthly target is not met.

 

The Department of Human Settlements faces a serious internal challenge in terms of the lack of capacity of its officials to undertake the housing task and in terms of the lack of close monitoring of housing projects. This challenge is made worse by the deployment of incompetent political allies to critical positions in municipalities where housing delivery actually has to take place.

 

Of particular concern to the NFP is the lack of housing delivery in Limpopo, this lack of housing delivery causing havoc and endless fighting over tenders. This, together with the concerns raised above, leads us to believe that despite the optimism of the Minister, the housing goals for 2019 will not be met. We support the budget. Thank you.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, the term “human settlements” is an integrative concept encompassing community services, such as education, health, culture, welfare, recreation and nutrition. Human settlements must therefore provide for all the social, material, economic, organisational, spiritual and cultural elements that sustain community life.

 

Nutritional needs, most importantly, must find priority inclusion in the planning and construction of housing. A lack of imagination - and proper planning, of course - has given us rows of houses and not human settlements in South Africa today. Every house should also have adequate space for a garden and have a foundation in place for the family to extend their basic house and house needs.

 

Cope believes that the department should look at a concept like core housing to meet the NDP requirement of building safer and economically stronger communities. As things stand at the moment, the budget plan cannot take our people forward, and we therefore do not agree with it.

 

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the ACDP will support this Vote, but would like to repeat its concerns about the provision of special housing. We are aware that NGOs, or nongovernmental organisations, and civil society have been advocating for more than 15 years for capital funding to be made available to NPOs, or nonprofit organisations, for the provision of group housing for low-income people with special-care needs.

The draft and financial model for the special-housing needs policy programme that was finalised early this year, which includes foster-care homes, homes for elderly people and people with disabilities, and shelters for victims of abuse and the homeless, was enthusiastically received by the relevant departments, NGOs, CSOs, or civil society organisations, and beneficiaries.

 

It is our understanding that the Department of Human Settlements is constitutionally required to implement housing programmes and make capital funding available for special housing needs. The department is also by far the best equipped to manage such a programme. Stakeholders are eager for things to move forward at a far greater pace so that the desperate people they work with daily, who are fending for themselves in unsuitable conditions, can at last access state housing assistance via NPOs. Thank you.

 

Mr N T GODI: House Chair, the APC supports this Budget Vote. We acknowledge that the department has an unenviable, yet critical, task. What separates humans from animals is the centrality of having a roof over one’s head. We support the drive to eradicate informal settlements, because they are dehumanising and are breeding grounds for disease and criminality.

 

However, informal settlements or slums have sprung up almost on a continual basis. And it was Fredrich Engels, over 100 years ago, who made the observation that the problems of the urban areas are actually the problems of the rural areas – meaning that if you have not developed the rural areas, people will continue to leave the rural areas and flock to the urban areas, where are there are no facilities and where there are no houses, and will find themselves in informal settlements.

 

In addition, the issue of informal settlements must also be linked to the inhuman and continual eviction of farm workers and farm dwellers, which has forced them off the farms and into creating informal settlements. I think that in a province like the North West this has been very rampant. So when we deal with informal settlements, we have to look at the causative factors, beyond a general lack of progress in the rural areas, and also at the role that the eviction of our people from the farms has played.

 

Lastly, we also want to register our concern about the eviction of people in the inner cities, especially in Johannesburg, where it is almost like the law of the jungle. Our people are on their own, and especially rampant evictions during winter ... [Time expired.]

Mr L R MBINDA: Chair, as the PAC our stance has been very clear since our existence in that issues pertaining to human settlement can only be resolved through the land question. For example, in the Northern Cape’s Kimberley area, RDP houses were built without toilets and running water. This resulted in the residents of the RDP housing project being forced to use the veld as the only alternative to toilets.

 

In eMakhaza, Khayelitsha, which is in the Western Cape, the City of Cape Town was taken to court for providing 1 316 informal dwellings with open-air toilets. Judge Nathan Erasmus ordered the city to enclose all the toilets. This all goes to show that our people are suffering.

 

The National Treasury states, for 2015-16, that there is an allocation of R30,9 billion to build proper and adequate houses. As the PAC we would really appreciate it if this issue could be treated as a matter of urgency. We cannot support this Vote.

 

Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the budget of Vote 38: Human Settlements, which was endorsed by the committee in order for the department to roll out service delivery through integrated human settlements, as the Freedom Charter says that there shall be houses and comfort.

In realising this, the department and its entities will continue spending its allocated budget in realising the outcomes that include upgrading informal settlements and providing services within those informal settlements that are being upgraded; eradicating informal settlements through mega projects; upgrading hostels and constructing community residential units; dealing with back-yard allocations; and densifying green fields and buffer zones in order to relocate some people from back yards.

 

Regarding the ratification that the DA is moaning about, the Minister has already pronounced that the NHBRC, or the National Home Builders Registration Council, is going to inspect, from now on, each and every house that is being constructed. No beneficiary will move into a house without there being an engineer from the NHBRC certifying that the House is suitable for human beings. [Interjections.] And if we find that the contractor has done shoddy work, the NHBRC will disqualify that contractor and send the contractor back to rectify the house and will also blacklist those contractors that continue building shoddy houses. They will have to repair the houses at their own cost.

 

The NGOs and NPOs are given an opportunity to build houses through ... [Inaudible.] ... and the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Siyaqhuba [We are moving forward]. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 207: Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T.
 

NOES – 82: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbhele, Z N; Mbinda, L R; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

APPROPRIATION BILL

 

(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

 

Vote 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.

 

Declarations of vote:

Mr T C R WALTERS: Hon Chair, the DA believes that land reform, properly managed along constitutional guidelines, is an opportunity that all South Africans can buy into to create a fair society. We believe land reform, if driven properly, can be a win-win vehicle to make personal private property, title deeds or shares a reality for the historically excluded and secure genuine freedom. We believe that land reform can strengthen opportunities for job creation, investment and food security.

 

The DA objects to this Budget Vote, because it funds the wrong institutional framework that has cynically wasted and stolen R81 billion over 21 years, thus endangering our vision.

 

We object, because this vision is destroyed by disastrous policy proposals such as land seizures and xenophobic ownership bans and it’s made to distract attention away from the ANC’s dismal failure in land reform. We object, because these proposals destroy jobs investment and it will also destroy food security and our financial sector. We object, because it shows up the 2014 election lie of the reopening of land claims by not properly funding unresolved old land claims or new claims. We object, because we care about our country and its future. [Applause.]

 

Ms N V NQWENISO: Chairperson, the EFF rejects this Budget Vote, because we refuse to give you our money to pay back the stolen land through committing crimes against humanity in the form of colonialisation and genocide.

 

Asisayi kunivumela ukuba nithathe le mali niphathe ngayo kakubi abantu njengoko nenzile kubantu baseKing Sabata Dalindyebo, befama yeti iMagwa, enabathembisayo ngezabelo. Sele kuyiminyaka emibini ukususela loo mini enabathembisa ngayo ngezabelo kodwa nanamhla oku abakazifumani ezo zabelo, sisalindile.

 

Asikwazi ukuluxhasa olu Hlahlo-lwabiwo mali ukuba niza kulusebenzisela ukuhlawula abantu ababa umhlaba wethu kwezi ndawo ziphucukileyo nihlala kuzo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

 

[We will not allow you to take this money and use it as the means of ill-treating other people as you did to the people of King Sabata Dalindyebo, the people working at Magwa Tea Plantation, whom you promised with shares. The people have been waiting for more than two years now from the day you made that share promise; we are still waiting.

 

We reject this Budget Vote if you are going to use it to reimburse people who steal our land in those suburbs you live in.]

 

We reject it because, since the purchase of Mala Mala, the community members who were promised that they would be the owners of the game farm have not been paid their dividends, despite the fact that millions had been paid in rand.

 

This department is the cornerstone of how the ANC government continues the colonial legacy and the land of landlessness on the part of the native populations. We reject this budget. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, because the department needs the budget, we support it. Land restitution is challenged by a lack of funds already. And it is partly for that reason that we say we support the budget. We wish there could be more.

 

People want what is rightfully theirs and they want it now. In order for that to happen the department has to have a budget. Land reform is hampered by a lack of technical stuff that has to be addressed in order for us to actualise what needs to happen. There is a direct co-relationship between land acquisition, land development and economic emancipation of previously disadvantaged persons. So, we do need a budget and we need a department that moves in that direction.

 

The sooner the Minister finalises the land tenure policies, which I know he is handling currently, the better for the stability of those insecure tenants. Because, If they know that this is their land and they have got title to it, or communities know that they can plan as they please how to utilise the land, they can commence with plans for the utilisation of that land for the betterment of communities.

 

We urge you, Minister, to fast-track the process so that our people can feel comfortable and settled on their land so that they can begin to plan constructively and comprehensively about how they want to move forward. We support the budget. I thank you.

 

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, while we support the UDM in urging the Minister to fast-track this process of land reform, which is a constitutional imperative, what prevents this from happening expeditiously is the lack of administrative capacity and the lack of finances.

 

Now, I address my comments and declaration here mainly to the Minister of Finance. Minister, unless we are serious about land reform in this country and unless we want to meet what is enshrined in the Constitution, it’s not going to happen if this department is underfunded and undercapacitated. They have been hiring consultants for a long time now. I know there is a shift in moving towards permanent staff, but we have got to have an accelerated programme which ensures that they can acquire the capacity and the funds in-house.

I think one of the serious problems for budgeting, Minister of Finance, moving forward, is the quantification of land claims. I don’t think we know as yet how much land claims are going to cost. And land claims outstanding in terms of resources payable is going to be the biggest contingent liability that this government is going to have moving forward and we need to address this.

 

I attended a meeting once where we had officials from Treasury and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform and they couldn’t agree on a modus operandi on how to quantify how much this department requires. So, what we are saying is, moving forward, more funds and we need to handle expeditiously the land claims process to overcome the fears of those who feel that their land is going to be taken away. A number of them have been informed that their land is gong to be sold or taken away, but they haven’t received their monies. We don’t want people to go to court. Government should have the money on hand to be able to pay them. Then, of course, we need to meet the aspirations of those who ... [Time expired.]

 

Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, the NFP feels that we have got a plethora of legislation to our disposal, but what militates against land reform and restitution are: Firstly, issues of a lack of will to ensure that people get land and also to reverse the ills of apartheid; secondly, there is a lot of what we call bureaucratic bottlenecks that hamper on restitution as well. The department must deal with those with immediate effect; thirdly, we feel that a lot has to be done with regard to the rise of farm dwellers. They are ill treated. And the NFP laments that fact; lastly, we feel that the people who have acquired land are usually left in the lurch because they have got farms but there is no follow up to ensure that they are assisted to make those farms more sustainable in order to earn a living for food security and also for business purposes. The NFP supports the budget.

 

Mrs C DUDLEY: House Chair, South Africa needs growth at 6% of GDP a year plus increased investment and employment, and rural development is as dependent on this as any other sector.

 

The ACDP has expressed concern that several pieces of legislation are in the wings that have the potential to impact negatively on development. The Expropriation Bill recently put forward by Public Works, for example, will make it much harder to build prosperity and overcome past disadvantage by undermining property rights, deterring investment and chocking off growth and jobs. While expropriation in the public interest as well as for public purposes is clearly a necessity at times, compensation cannot be wished away without negative consequences for the country as a whole. Property rights are essential to individual and political freedom and we appeal to you, hon Minister, to ensure through this department that they are not eroded. We will however not be supporting this Vote. Thank you.

 

Mr L R MBINDA: As the PAC we are happy that foreigners will not be getting even a cent to sell their land. As the PAC we would like to state that rural poverty is a direct result of removals from arable land. Rural life is peasantry life, therefore dependent on productivity of the land. And land that has low production capacities is discouraging to rural communities.

 

The mandate of this department is too wide. It cannot be expected to be a state within a state - a state that owns less than 15% of the land. As the PAC we are of the view that we cannot control or determine our own destiny as a nation without control of our own land. The land must go back to its rightful owners without any compensation.

 

Mt N T GODI: House Chairperson, the APC supports the budget and the objectives of the department. We are clear as the APC that the instrument of colonial conquest was land alienation. Our struggle for freedom was to gain concrete expression in the restoration of land to the majority of our people.

 

We therefore support any programme to restitute land back to our people to ensure that white people don’t own land in this country out of proportion to their population size and our people also have access to land. Our main concern is that the process is slow - administrative inefficiencies contribute to this. We have been talking about doing away with the willing seller, willing buyer principle. There has been a lot of talk in this regard, but very little action. We want to say, as the APC, that we think if you want to do justice to our people we need to ensure that they have access to land and they are also able to participate in the agricultural economy.

 

Lastly, on rural development, there are people who ... on Sunday I met one young man in Polokwane who was part of the National Rural Youth Service cause who was trained at the SA Wildlife College over three years and now he is a taxi driver. He is driving his brother’s taxi from Polokwane to Alexandra. Now, the question is that, after such heavy investment, over R150 000 to send him to school, it has come to nothing. I think that there is a need to ensure that such training isn’t simply a waste of money, but that it is an investment in people who are skilled to be able to be placed in jobs ... [Time expired.]

 

Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon Chair, the ANC supports the department’s Budget Vote as was fully articulated during the Extended Public Committees, EPCs. A variety of reasons can be raised to demonstrate its patriotic and liberatory stance to support and pass this Budget Vote, but we shall cite two or three of those: Firstly, that it does not only elaborate but takes further the fundamental state of the nation address pronouncement by His Excellency President Zuma on the land question - like the 12 000 ha land ownership ceiling, on the amount of land per household and the outlawing of foreign land ownership going forward with respect to productive land to start with.

 

Secondly, that the institution and probation of the Office of the Valuer General allows space to close the milking of the state by unscrupulous land owners selling to the state at exorbitant prices by colluding with private land valuers in their outgoing dispensation because we are changing that dispensation.

 

Thirdly, following the reopening of the land claims or the restitution process which was pronounced last year, this Budget Vote now puts in place due resources for expeditious implementation of this progressive agenda as well as numerous other targets and milestones, as was amplified during the EPCs.

 

Looking at this Budget Vote it is most fulfilling to note its progressive linkage to the broader question of the radical economic transformation phase of our National Democratic Revolution, NDR – this is more scientifically crafted and articulated in the ANC’s strategy and tactics which further captures a correct appraisal of the domestic and international balance of forces. We pause once more to restate for anyone not to be confused but to be clear in thought that, “the main thrust of the NDR is the liberation of black people in general and Africans in particular”. [Time expired.] The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 209: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T.

 

NOES – 87: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nqweniso, N V; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Rules of the House state that once a division has been called and the doors are locked, all members in the House must vote. Now, either the hon Minister has not voted, or she has pressed the C T Frolick button where she is sitting – either way, she is in violation of the Rules of the House. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I’m sure the Minister has not pressed my button. Order! Order, hon members. Order! We are in a voting session. Hon Chief Whip, or Deputy Chief Whip, could you just explain why the Minister isn’t voting?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The Minister is one of those four appointed by the President that the Constitution allows. She can sit anywhere in the House. She does not vote.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, that is correct. The Minister doesn’t have a voting right in the House.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon House Chair, well then when you put the question of whether all members were in their allocated seats ... that’s not the Minister’s allocated seat.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. Order! We are in a voting session. I am sure all members have now exercised their right to vote and the voting session is closed.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation – put.

 

Declarations of Vote:

Mr M S MALATSI: Chairperson, we object to this budget in protest against the political leadership of the Minister. It is quite clear that the Minister does not take this portfolio seriously. He was never here last year during the Oral Questions. Cometh the hour, runs Mbalula has again left his seat.

 

At the very outset this department has key priorities. It is only allocated R9,7 million for the sports infrastructure programme, which equals to one per cent of the total budget.

 

This year, the Minister announced in his budget that boxing will return to the public broadcaster, yet last week, a day before the date on which he had announced that it would return to the public broadcaster, the Minister classically pulled what we call a sly tsotsi move and went on another overseas gallivanting crusade to avoid the bad news that this announcement was once again postponed.

 

The Minister again indicated that he will revitalise boxing but we have a situation wherein Boxing SA authorises fights where boxers are not paid purse money and there is no indication or provision for the training for boxing judges and boxing referees.

 

The budget also makes no provision whatsoever for the professionalisation of women sport, particularly setting up professional structures for women’s football and rugby.

 

The Minister is totally not serious about providing leadership in sport. His amateurish handling of boxing; of the 2010 World Cup bribery allegations; and his insatiable appetite for razzmatazz are a testament of this.

 

If the ANC takes sport seriously, it is time that they find a new playground for the Minister where he can take pouting selfies and tweet about them. Until then, we will not support this budget. He’s the wrong man with the wrong ideas in the wrong portfolio. [Applause.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: We would like to begin by welcoming the sports Minister from the money country where he was wearing hip-hop chains. This is the former young lion who has now graduated to the money team of Floyd Mayweather, unlike the hon Lulu Johnson who is a young lion that graduated into a cat that now meows from the backbenchers. [Laughter.]

 

The EFF rejects this budget because it treats sport like celebrity-creation machinery as opposed to improving great sportsmanship in our country and on the ground. The department has not called ...

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY POARTY: On a point of order hon House Chair: We really do not want to continue in this vein by calling each other animals. Really! You can’t call the hon Johnson a cat! [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Are we snakes?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, indeed, I think the order is sustained. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson I said, like hon Tambo said ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please don’t ... [Inaudible.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I’ve not called anybody a cat. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Please check the Hansard. I’ve not called anybody a cat. [Interjections.]

 

Ms M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, Usayikhumbula inyoka. Usakhumbula bekade kuwuwena lana, bakhona ubathi kukhona izinyoka ngapha ... [Ubuwelewele] ... [Chairperson, do you still remember the snake? Do you still remember that you were presiding, and some said there were snakes on this side ... [Interjections?]]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am still, Hon Khawula ...

 

Ms M S KHAWULA: Wagcina wathi wena lento uzoyilungisa. Awuke uzame ukulungisa ntokazi ngoba sihlalo lapho ngaphambili ... [Ubuwelewele] ... akufanele uqale into ekugcineni ezokuhlula. Yingakho ngithe asihlonipheni. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: You ended up saying you will resolve that issue. Please try and resolve it, hon member, because as a Chairperson you must make good of your promises. That is why I said we must respect one another. Thank you.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, mama Khawula ...

 

[Ubuwelewele] Ngisazoyilungisa leyondaba njengoba ngangithembisile, namanje ngisathembisile kodwa ... [Interjections.] [I’m still going to resolve that issue as promised, I’m still promising to do that but ...]

 

Tata Ndlozi, that order is sustained. You said, hon Lulu Johnson is the cat that meows from the backbenchers. You directly referred to hon Lulu Johnson. So, please withdraw that remark.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I want to advise you to check the Hansard. I’m going to repeat ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, no, no!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, no. I said, unlike hon Lulu Johnson who is a young lion – if they are disputing young lion its fine – that graduated into a cat that meows from the backbenchers of the ANC. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, thank you very much. That is what you said and I agree with you, and that is ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: So if he can be a young lion why can’t he be a cat? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no. no. no, hon member!

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: These are similes; these are idioms ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, we know that you said that. Please withdraw that remark. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, please ... I’m not going to withdraw it. If we can say people are young lions we can say people are cats. If we can say they are young lions we can say they are cats.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Ndlozi ...

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Lulu Johnson is a young lion that graduated into a cat that now meows from the backbenchers of the ANC.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, hon Ndlozi ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I’m not going to withdraw it.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please withdraw it.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I’m not going to withdraw the word cat. If he, including the Chief Whip, can accept young lion he can accept cat.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, you said the cat that meows.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: They are all animals ... [Inaudible.] ... cats, lions ... everything is an animal there. So, I’m not going to withdraw it. Let’s decide to move on, hon Chairperson. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi ... hon Ndlozi, I think you heard the Chief Whip. His point of order is that you are comparing the member to an animal.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Yes.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): He never even talked about that. So, both the animals that you have mentioned ... saying that hon Lulu is those animals ... please withdraw the whole statement. [Interjections.]

 

Ms H O MAXON: Point of order, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please sit hon ...

 

Ms H O MAXON: Do you understand the slogan of the ANC Youth League which says, roar young lion roar? [Interjections.] If the youth league disputes that, we can withdraw it.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, this is a House not a rally hon Maxon. This is not a rally of the ANC. Those remarks were attributed to hon Lulu Johnson and Lulu Johnson is not that animal. He’s not a lion; he’s not a cat. Please withdraw it.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: He’s a cat.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please withdraw it. Stand and please withdraw it.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, I’ve already indicated that if people can accept young lion they can accept cats ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m not talking about ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... and hon Lulu Johnson is a graduated cat that now meows from the backbenchers of the ANC. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please be honest with yourself. [Interjections.]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order. [Interjections.] I was first.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, let me recognise the point of orders. Hon Steenhuisen?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, again for the second time I must point out the inconsistency from the Chair. You allowed the hon Motshekga to stand here and call us snakes ... [Interjections.] ... and we were told, no don’t worry about it; we will sort it out later. As soon as a member of the opposition says anything that they find mildly irritating, we have to withdraw it immediately. [Interjections.] If you are going to make rulings in this House you must be consistent.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am very consistent ... {Interjections.] ... and I said that ... hon ... [Inaudible.] ... please, I said that hon member because I did not hear it well and I said I was going to come back. [Interjections] This one was very clear and I can respond now. [Interjections.] I can. I am not going to take your tune; I can respond now. Hon Shivambu?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, we wanted to advise you so that we proceed. Can you reserve that withdrawal command until you have ruled on the one with regard to snakes? Then we can deal with it and determine whether ... but the point that is being made is that Lulu Johnson is insignificant and irrelevant ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I can’t hear.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... and that has been proven. So, rule on the issue which is outstanding; then you can rule on this one. We can’t withdraw ... [Interjections.] ... its inconsistent.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Shivambu ...

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You know, the compliance with ... {Interjections.] ... consistent rules ... if we just withdraw things which ... [Inaudible.] ... ask the member to withdraw it.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Shivambu. Please sit down. You have made your point. Please sit down. Hon Shivambu, I heard this remark very well. I don’t need to be advised on it, and I insist that hon Ndlozi withdraws it now! [Interjections.] Hon Ndlozi, will you please allow us to continue by withdrawing what you said?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: With all due respect hon Chairperson, I’m not convinced; I’m not going to withdraw it. The hon Lulu Johnson is a young lion that graduated into a cat that now meows from the backbenchers of the ANC.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, thank you. I think that we as the Chief Whips agreed in the Chief Whips Forum that we are not going to allow the House to degenerate into what it has turned into now. I think our behaviour should be exceptional and commendable. However, with the way we are behaving in this House ... it’s the Whips that are degenerating this House. So, I’m pleading with the Whippery of all parties to stick to what we agreed upon in order to make sure that we continue uninterrupted with the business of this day. The House Chairperson is going to make the rulings after these Votes and Schedules. Can we allow that to happen please?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, I repeat; the point of order raised by the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party ... order hon members! ... is that you referred to hon Johnson as an animal. I am saying that I heard it and the point of order is correct. So, I am asking you to withdraw the statement that says that.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect, even for the political work that the Whippery does; we repeat if people can be young lions, they can be cats. I’m not withdrawing! [Interjections.]

 

Mr S M RALEGOMA: Oh, you’re not withdrawing it?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I’m not withdrawing that. There is a precedent in this House, hon Chairperson. It has been brought to your attention over and over again but you want to bully me! Even through political decisions, everybody is appealing to my conscience and my logic. The whole House is standing now, when it should have stood earlier on the snake references! Hon Lulu Johnson is young lion that graduated ... [Interjections.] ... into a cat that now meows from the backbenchers of the ANC.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, can we respect one another? Hon Lulu Johnson? [Interjections.] Who’s speaking and from where?

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Point of order, Chair.

 

Mr M JOHNSON: Chair, what I would have loved you to do was to allow the rapist to continue. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Point of order, Chair! Point of order, Chair! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, on a point of order. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shivambu?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I’m standing up to tell that small boy, Lulu Johnson, to withdraw what he just said. [Interjections.] He must not undermine people here and just speak like that. [Interjections.] I will never respect Lulu and I will never call him hon. How can he stand up and degenerate like that? We are not your children! You failed your political career and couldn’t get elected anywhere. Now you come here and try to revive your political career by just insulting people! [Interjections.] You must not act like that man! [Interjections.] We can’t be taken for granted by boys; young boys who don’t know anything! [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shivambu, please sit. Hon Mbatha, I have been asked ...

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Can I assist you, Chair?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, I don’t need any assistance at this instance.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: You need help.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m going to assist the House. No, hon members ...

Mr M S MBATHA: You need help.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I asked you, let’s not degenerate. Now it has gone beyond me.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: But it’s your ... you started this. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, hon Mbatha, please wait. We are going to suspend for three minutes. Hon Ndlozi, just hold it because I’ve been advised by the Table that they have to talk about this. Thank you. Sit down.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Must I sit here?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, you can.

 

Business suspended at 00:12 and resumed at 00:20.

 

Unparliamentary language

 

(Ruling)

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! I have been advised that the rulings that I promised to make earlier on I should do now.

 

Hon members, I indicated earlier that I will comeback with the ruling on the remarks made by Dr M S Motshekga as well as subsequent remarks by other members on his remarks. I also promised to revert to the House on the remarks made by hon Radebe. I took both actions following on various points of order by members.

 

It is in this House that we come together to debate our political differences, indeed it is in this House that we function as an open forum where all voices have a right to be heard and afforded dignity. It is expected of us to engage in debates without resorting to verbally abusing one another. When this happens, we are no longer engaged in a meaningful debate which is the very rational for the existence of this House.

 

We also have a responsibility to make a contribution towards nation-building, which includes working towards a nonracial and tolerant society, especially in the light our divided past. Firstly, may I ask hon Motshekga to stand: Hon Motshekga, I have consulted Hansard, and the words that you used were those noises about people being puppets are actually screams of dying snakes. From the context of the deliberation it would seem that these words were a reflection on what had been said previously by other hon members. These words, when used in reference to members are derogatory and intended to give offence. I must therefore ask the hon Motshekga to withdraw them.

 

Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: It is with great pleasure that I withdraw unconditionally to set a good example for this hon House. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Motshekga. Secondly, may I ask the hon Shivambu to stand. Order hon members! Hon Shivambu, you then proceeded to call the hon Motshekga a dying snake. This is also unacceptable and it was intended to also give offence and be derogatory in response to the words used earlier. Will you please withdraw the remark.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, I withdraw for calling Mathole a dead snake. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

 

Hon MEMBERS: No! [Interjections.] No!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, hon Shivambu should address the hon Motshekga as hon Motshekga.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh! Okay, I did not hear that and I think the point of order is sustained. Hon Shivambu, will you please refer to hon Motshekga as hon Motshekga.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw for calling Mr Mathole ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Honourable, please! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: NO, no, no, no! There is no rule that says we must call a person honourable ... [Interjections.] it says you ... [Interjections.] ... you can’t, there is no such a rule that says that here. [Interjections.] We have dealt with that question long time ago. There is no rule that compels us to call; I can’t call a person who is not honourable, honourable! There is no rule which says that in this Parliament, it says you can refer to them with the title and I am saying I am withdrawing on calling Mr Mathole a dead snake. Every time when we speak there we say: Mr Zuma, Mr this, Mr that, and everything and so on.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, hon Shivambu. The hon Shivambu has withdrawn and the issue of the honourable will be looked into. [Interjections.]

 

Lastly, hon members, a point of order was taken on the remarks made by the hon Radebe when he said: Really, Chairperson, are we allowed to read newspapers in the House in particular when the African speakers are speaking and then when they are whites they are put down? Hon Radebe, will you stand. Your remark has a clear undertone of racial stereotyping; the implication is that certain hon members are engaged in a form of racist behaviour and only give import to speeches of members of certain race. These remarks are unparliamentary, I therefore ask you to withdraw the remarks.

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I withdraw unconditionally. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, indeed as indicated also by other presiding officers, the fact that you do not agree with a ruling or you believe that the words used by another member are unparliamentary does not give you the right to also use unparliamentarily language or to make threats that have an effect of creating disorder in the House. We cannot conduct business like that.

 

In this regard, the whips have an important duty not only to ensure the discipline of their own members but to also assist in being vigilant in protection the dignity and the decorum of the House. Having said that, hon Ndlozi, please stand. I am going to ask you, hon Ndlozi to withdraw to the reference that you have made to hon Johnson likening him to an animal. Please withdraw. 

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I withdraw referring to the hon Lulu Johnson as a former young lion or a cat that meows from the benches of the ANC.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Having said so, can I ask the hon Johnson to stand. Hon Johnson – I can’t even repeat the words that you uttered as you took a point of order are unparliamentary; will you please withdraw.

 

Mr M JOHNSON: Chairperson, I withdraw unconditionally. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, we now continue. You still have one minute and one second.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... the department has not called any big conferences to announce how many millions of our people will have access to gyms, quality soccer, rugby or even athletics fields in the rural areas, townships and other areas where the poor live. There is no demonstration if the commitment to have sports awards or self-funding will be a success in any near future. We reject this budget and make a call that International Federation of Association Football, Fifa, bribes must be investigated with the full support of this government and this Parliament.

 

The celebrity-hungry Minister must come down and accept that nothing is more embarrassing than an aspirant gangster hip-pop-rap-artist Minister who is on a paraffin speed defending mafia bribes for world sports events. The Minister must stop commenting about things he knows nothing about and allow an investigation into Fifa bribes to go uninterrupted. We reject this budget ... [Interjections.]

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, what was the purpose of this exercise, when it turns around two minutes later and he calls the hon Minister a gangster? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chief Whip, why are you rising?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Order!

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: A point of order, Chairperson.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But why do you stand up ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, I will recognise you after I have recognised the Chief Whip.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But why does he stand up and speak as if this is his own house. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order! Hon Shivambu, could you take your seat? Hon Chief Whip, why are you rising?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I am rising on a point of order, Chairperson.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order, hon Chief Whip?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I am asking the question: What was this exercise all about, when the member on the podium right now calls the Minister a gangster? How can it be?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Eh, eh!!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member. [Interjectionss.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... I don’t understand. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, did you call the hon Minister a gangster.

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: No!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Speak ... I want to ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, no, no. I did not ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You say, you did not?

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... I don’t even understand what is happening.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): May I ask the Table staff to immediately check what the hon member said and inform us ...

 

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Ja, let’s check later. We reject this budget as the EFF because we believe that the legacy of the young lions of Oliver Tambo must be carried with pride, and that sport must not only promote or concentrate on the elite sportsmanship. But we believe that it must be accessed by millions and millions of our people on the ground – young and old - particularly in schools and in the rural areas, so that they do not come and sleep here in Parliament, but are healthy; supported by proper recreational facilities. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The IFP? May I also ask the Table staff just to pay attention to the clock? You are not resetting it when you are supposed to do it.

 

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon House Chairperson, the recent Fifa scandal which embroils South Africa of a $10 million corrupted deal to secure 2010 to secure the 2010 Fifa World Cup is just part of the problem which needs to be address if we are to take positive steps towards the transformation of sports in this country. We suggest, as the IFP, that a judiciary commission of inquiry be established and that this scandal, the role and involvement of many key players such as ...

 

... lowo owayenguNgqongqoshe uBaba uSexwale, uNgqongqoshe uBaba uRadebe, uSihlalo weNhlangano yamaZwe ase-Afrika umama uNkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, lowo owayenguMongameli wakuleli uBaba uThabo Mbeki, uSihlalo we-Orlando Pirates uBaba u-Irvin Khoza, uBaba uMolefe Oliphant, nowayenguMongameli wakuleli uBaba u-de Klerk, ukuze igama likaBaba uMandela likwazi ukugezeka ngoba ngenkathi kuzoba nemidlalo yebhola likanobhutshuzwayo yeNdebe yomhlaba bamlanda engaphilile weza wazothamela le midlalo. Yingakho-ke uma sekuvela izinto ezinjengalezi, kukhombe ukuthi kuzofanele njengabantu baseNingizimu Afrika, siligeze igama lakhe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[... the former Minister, Mr Sexwale, Minister Radebe, the Chairperson of AU Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, our former President Mr Thabo Mbeki, the Chairperson of Orlando Pirates Dr Irvin Khoza, Mr Molefe Oliphant, and our former President Mr de Klerk, in order to clear the name of Mr Mandela because during the Fifa World Cup he was brought to witness the soccer games although he was ill. That is why when allegations like these emerge, we are supposed to clear his name as the people of South Africa.]

 

In South Africa we do not even have a national sports academy. We have schools in rural areas without adequate sports equipment. We have continuously remained below the bar in terms of sports transformation in this country with severely constrained budget. Minister, we once again call upon you to prioritise sports transformation and capacitation in rural areas and at school level. Without these you will not see proper transformation in sports. It will remain nothing but a vain pipe dream. I thank you.

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, can we have the truth, the whole truth with less razzmatazz. [Laughter.] Who was responsible for manipulation our Cricket World team and who agreed to the Soccer World Cup bribe? Mpumalanga, Limpopo, North West and Northern Cape provinces do not feature in major sports codes. The Eastern Cape is half in and half out. After 21 years of democracy, there is still no geographical equity. The Congress of the People urges the Minister to convene a national summit to find creative and feasible ways that will enable schools, communities, sports federations to use our stadia to the fullest because remaining unused they constitute a dead burden.

 

When we watch a European team play, for example Barcelona, we see stadium packed with as many as 82 000 spectators. The potential of sports for social cohesion, nation building and a quality of life is enormous. The struggle to bring people together must continue. The use of quarters is an intrusive instrument. Proactive scouting for talent and sending young players to a regional sports academy is the way to go.

 

Finally, there is this Fifa issue that hangs over our heads, hon Minister - the 10 million ... [Interjections.] ... that’s a major problem and we can’t in anyway support this. [Time expired.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The UDM. [Interjections.] No, hon Madisha. Your time has expired. You can’t just walk and grab the mic and think you going to address the House again. It doesn’t work like that. Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, and hon Ministers, I would use this opportunity to urge the black-owned businesses to support sport in rand terms. There are so many millionaires that have been created in the last coupler decades, and we don’t we see them supporting sports. Transformation, hon Minister, appears to be moving rather too slowly to translate to societal cohesion. These people could very well meet on field of play and that camp, but you find that immediately after the match they no longer belong to one another. It just does not exist.

 

Just to finish off on this Fifa scandal that is engulfing the country and, indeed, the world of soccer. I have got a suggestion here, to you hon Minister. The purpose of the suggestion is to make sure that we send a clear message to the world to say, as government we were not part of this as it has transpired ultimately. Suggest you make a trip to Trinidad, and when you get there look for a man by the name of Jack Warner. Tell him that we say he should please pay back the balance of whatever remains of the $10 million. If he can prove to you that he used a portion of it – and I am serious – for the development which was intended by our government, then that money, I can tell you, we need it in Thanga, where I was born, in Butterworth and they need it in Tohoyandou.

 

Through that step you would have made a statement to say, government never meant that money to be used by Jack Warner the way he did. I hope you will take this seriously. I am not being naughty here. But if you heed to that call, the world will know that South African government never meant that the money ... [Time expired.]

 

Mr S G MMUSI: Chairperson, the ANC which is popularly known as the Congress of the People [Ukhongolose] an organisation which is forward looking because it cares for the people of South Africa has a plan which is called the national sports and recreation plan. This plan has a buy-in of federation in the country, big and small. They all have committed themselves to support this plan. And I am talking about rugby, cricket, soccer, hockey, tennis, all of them.

 

The Cabinet have also adopted this plan, because it seeks to address the issue of transformation in this country. The transformation we are talking about is to redress the imbalances that were created by some of the Africans on my left. This is the mess that we are trying to correct because the imbalances ...

 

I am saying we are trying to address the issue of transformation in this country. Transformation is good because it will make sure that people of this country who were previously disadvantaged are able take their positions and participate in all sporting codes.

 

Let me once and for all address this issue that we spoke about yesterday and to which we remain steadfast: We told the opposition that the bribery case is currently under investigation, that there is one person in South Africa who is indicted and that we do not know who that person is ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, unfortunately your time has expired.

 

Mr S G MMUSI: Thank, Chairperson. The ANC supports this budget. Amandla. [Power.] [Applause.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, on a point of information ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, there is no such thing as point of information.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The hon member who was there says does not know who is indicted by Fifa. We want to tell him that ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu? [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... it is the part-time mayor of Port Elizabeth, Danny Jordaan who is soon going to be arrested by Fifa. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I have not recognised you as point of information. I have said there were objections, hon members. And I put the question.

 

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, Congress of the People, United Democratic Movement, and African National Congress.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 212: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T.

 

NOES – 81: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Schedule as a whole agree.

 

APPROPRIATION BILL

 

(Second Reading debate)

 

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

AYES – 212: Adams, P E; Adams, F; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mbinda, L R; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shelembe, M L; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseli, R M; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego-Sovita, S T.

 

NOES – 82: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Bhanga, B M; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; De Kock, K; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Lees, R A; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Matlhoko, A M; Matsepe, C D; Maxon, H O; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mcloughlin, A R; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Van Damme, P T; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Whitfield, A G; Wilson, E R.

 

Bill accordingly read a second time.

 

The House adjourned at 00:50.

__________

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

The Speaker and the Chairperson

 

  1. Calling of Joint Sitting

CALLING OF JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT

 

The Speaker of the National Assembly, Ms B Mbete, and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Ms T R Modise, in terms of Joint Rule 7(2), have called a joint sitting of the Houses of Parliament for Thursday, 11 June 2015 at 14:00 to conduct a debate in celebration of Youth Day under the theme: Progressively implementing the spirit of the Freedom Charter by advancing our collective efforts for sustainable National Youth Development by 2030.

 

 

 

 

B MBETE, MP                                                              T R MODISE, MP

SPEAKER OF THE NATIONAL                                                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE

ASSEMBLY                                                                              NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

 

National Assembly

 

The Speaker

 

  1. Membership of Committees

 

  1. The following members have been nominated by their parties to serve on the Ad Hoc Committee to consider the report by the Minister of Police in reply to recommendations in the Report of Ad Hoc Committee to Consider the Report by the President regarding Security upgrades at the Nkandla Private Residence of the President.

 

African National Congress

 

Voting Members

 

Dlakude, Ms DE

Frolick, Mr CT

Motshekga, Dr MS

Beukman, Mr F

Kubayi, Ms MT

Ngcobo, Ms BT

Gamede, Mr DD

Maseko, Ms LM

 

Non-Voting Members

 

Maake, Mr JJ

Coleman, Ms EM

Smith, Mr VG

Mahambehlala, Ms T

September, Ms CC

 

Democratic Alliance

 

Voting Members

 

Maimane, Mr MA

Selfe, Mr J

Breytenbach, Adv G

 

Non-Voting Members

 

Dreyer, Mrs AM

Majola, Mr TR

 

Inkatha Freedom Party

 

Voting Member

 

Singh, Mr N

 

Freedom Front Plus

 

Voting Member

 

Mulder, Dr CP

 

African Christian Democratic Party

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Swart, Mr S

 

AGANG

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Plouamma, Mr A

 

African Independent Congress

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Ntshayisa, Mr LM

African People’s Convention

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Godi, Mr T

 

Congress of the People

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Carter, Ms D

 

National Freedom Party

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Mabika, Mr MS

 

Pan Africanist Congress

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Mbinda, Mr LR

United Democratic Movement

 

Non-Voting Member

 

Filtane, Mr MLW

 

  1. Recommendation of candidates for appointment to Information Regulator

 

  1. A letter dated 22 May 2015 has been received from the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services –

 

  1. informing the Assembly that the process of determining the remuneration of the chairperson and ordinary members of the Information Regulator, as required by section 46 of the Protection of Personal Information Act, 2013 (No 4 of 2013), has been concluded; and

 

  1. requesting the Assembly now to commence with the process of recommending, in accordance with the principles and prerequisites set out in section 41 of the Act, five suitable candidates for appointment as members of the Information Regulator for a period of five (5) years.

 

Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services for consideration and report.

TABLINGS

 

National Assembly

 

1.       The Speaker

 

  1. Petition from the Unity Fellowship Church in Chiawelo, Soweto, calling for relief after the withdrawal of its operating licence by the City of Johannesburg and alleged harassment of worshippers by the Johannesburg City Metro Police during church services, submitted in terms of Rule 312 (Mr R W T Chance).

 

  1. Letter dated 1 June 2015, informing the Assembly of the late submission of the corporate plan of South African Airways (SAA), required for tabling in terms of section 10 of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, 2009 (Act No 9 of 2009).

 


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