Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 06 Aug 2015


No summary available.








The House met at 14:00.


The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.




The SPEAKER: The first Question has been asked by hon...


Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, before you start, I want to ask a question for clarity. On the Question Paper ...


The SPEAKER: What is the question for clarity?


Ms H O MAXON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. When you look at the Question Paper, you will recognise that the symbols and the marking of the Question Paper... when you go to the Question of the EFF... the star is not clear. So we need clarity. What does that mean? [Interjections.]


I’m just talking to the Speaker. I don’t know what this noise is all about. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: There are stars next to each of the Questions, and they only indicate a Question for oral reply.


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker...


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee?


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, in terms of the order and prioritisation of the Questions, and in terms of the Rule on Questions to the President, it is such that, at the end of the two hours, the Question from the EFF might not actually be entertained today. It cannot be that you have parties that will ask two or three Questions each from the beginning to the end such that the EFF’s Question may not be answered today by the President. We need the answer to that Question.


Can it be that – because it is not in the Rules – in terms of the voting outcome of 7 May 2014, that it is ANC, it is DA and the third-largest party becomes number three on the Question Paper, rather than number six? Thank you. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: The answer to the issue that hon Gardee has raised is contained in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATC, of Thursday, 26 June 2014. That is where the issue of the sequence for Members’ Statements and Questions for Oral Reply was agreed to and determined. The order of the Question Paper today is as a result of the agreement as reflected on the document of the ATC, Thursday, 26 June 2014. That is what guides the order and sequence of Questions in this Question Paper.


So, we will now ...


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee...


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, if I may address you on that ATC ... The National Assembly is governed in terms of the Rules.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee ...


Mr G A GARDEE: That agreement cannot overrule the application of the Rules.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, this matter was settled in a structure of the National Assembly. All orders and sequences were followed from the beginning. From the time of the agreed order and sequence to this day, we have been following the sequence as reflected on that ATC.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker...


The SPEAKER: Hon members, we have come here to entertain Questions to the President. I have really been patient and have given you the attention that you seek...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, no, we are with you, hon Speaker. We are rising to ask that this House must have the highest authority over anyone. Over small and big committees. We are saying that South Africans know you have all colluded to put this Question as number six, so that it is not answered by the time the Question Time expires. [Interjections.] It must come in after the DA’s Question so that South Africans are able to hear President Zuma respond as to when he is going pay back the money. That is what we are asking. We are contesting the order. It is allowed by the Rules. We are contesting the order in this House. We are not agreeing to this collusion you are all subjecting us to with others you are agreeing to. We want our Question to be prioritised because it is as important as being the third-largest party in this House. That is all we are saying. You must rule on that, because this House can take that decision. It is not true that, just because an ATC, or because the programme or whatever committee met where you were many... South Africans must know you put that Question last because you don’t want it to be answered. So we want it to be prioritised. You must rule on that. We will even divide this House. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Swart?


Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The ACDP was denied the opportunity of putting a Question on this precise issue last time, due to the disruption by the EFF. They cannot complain today that their Question will be crowded out. If it is so... We are wasting time now. Our Question was crowded out last time; they could have the same opportunity. Let’s continue with the questioning. [Applause.] [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I wish to place it on record that there has been absolutely no collusion with anybody as the hon Mngxitama is alleging. If there was collusion... [Laughter.] If there was collusion... [Laughter.] [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: If there was any kind of...


Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order...


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, can you please take your seat. Let’s hear hon ...


Mr G A GARDEE: There is no hon Mngxitama. They have voted with the ANC that he should be assaulted today.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m sorry. I forgot. He got kicked out last time. It’s hard to keep up! [Laughter.]


I want to say, Madam Speaker, that if there was any collusion that took place, it took place last year when the sequence was agreed to by all parties, and the EFF agreed to that sequence in the Chief Whip’s Forum, and to the subsequent adoption of it.


It served us well. You will remember, at the last sitting, the DA – despite being the second-largest party in South Africa – did not have a Question on the Order Paper, because that is how the sequence works.


You can’t come here now and try hugger-mugger to change things around just because you’ve got a ... [Interjections.]


We will get to the EFF’s Question. The only limitation on Questions to the President – there’s no time limitation – is that the session is limited to six Questions. So, even if we sit here till 10 o’clock this evening, we will get to the EFF’s Question.


So, why are they trying again to obstruct the business of this of Parliament for the sake of theatrics? [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Actually ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, Speaker ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: ... I want to ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: But Speaker, the DA must be corrected here. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: I whish to emphasise that ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: They must be corrected. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Honourable ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The DA ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: ... Ndlozi, please take your seat. [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... there was time when they were opposed to anybody being physically removed in this House. You changed your mind. Therefore, why can’t we be allowed to change our minds about the agreements that we had last year.


The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: It’s a new era. We know you are colluding to suppressing “payback the money.” You must not try to be smart with us here. You changed your mind all the time ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, take your seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: We don’t think this question was put at number six because of an ATC. This question was put at number six because you don’t want it to be answered. We want it to be prioritised because we want “payback the money.” [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: I wish to emphasise that the President always finishes answering all six Questions. He has, in fact, never failed to answer any question when the House does proceed to deal with questions. And that is what I wish to do now.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, now that you have made an assurance that all the six questions are going to be responded to, let’s go on because we want that question to be responded to. [Interjections.]




Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want to know ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... when is he paying back the money. It’s as simple as that.


The SPEAKER: The first question, hon members, has been asked ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.] ... I am rising on a point of order. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: No, hon Ndlozi. [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, hon Speaker, you have a duty to protect us. An hon member stands there ... [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: ... is off.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: My mic is off? [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Your Chief Whip has said that we should proceed now ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: My mic is off. I am rising ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: ... because you have been assured ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Ya, no problem. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: ... that your question will definitely be reached ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, but I want to correct ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: ... and will be answered. So, I now ... [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... you must correct that member there.


Mr S J MALEMA: Honourable ... [Interjections.] ... Ah, ah!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Ah, ah! Don’t switch off our mics! Hey!


Mr S J MALEMA: Somebody switch off the mics here!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Don’t switch off our mics, please!

Mr S J MALEMA: Don’t switch off the mics!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Don’t do that.


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker?


The SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: The mic is off!


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker?


The SPEAKER: The question ... [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker, ahhh! [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: ... has been asked by the hon L S Makhubela-Mashile. [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Honourable ... [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker! Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Ehhh!


Mr S J MALEMA: ... I am rising on a different matter, my mic is off.


The SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon Malema.


The HONOURABLE MEMBER: It’s a different issue!


The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please take your seat. [Interjections.]


Ms M S KHAWULA: Bayasithuka ngapha! [Ubuwelewele.] [They are swearing at us in here! [Interjections.]]


Mr A M MATLHOKO: Oh, democracy is gone!


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Ms M S KHAWULA: Bayasithuka! [Ubuwelewele.] [They are swearing at us. [Interjection.]]


Mr S J MALEMA: ... there is a hon member there from one of the smallest parties ... [Laughter.] ... who stood up and said that the previous session was disrupted by the EFF. [Interjections.] There is no legitimate body that has arrived at such a conclusion and therefore he has got no authority, non whatsoever, to stand up and make that statement as a statement of fact. We ask him to withdraw it now and if he refuses, we ask you to make a ruling on that even if it’s not now, maybe after the President has answered the questions.


The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, I will look into that. I now call upon the hon the President to respond to the Question by hon Makhubela-Mashile. [Applause.]






Progress made among BRICS partners pursued to BRICS Summit


13.        Ms L S Makhubela-Mashele (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:


Pursuant to the BRICS Summit held in July 2015 and in light of the agreement and the conclusion of domestic ratification of processes amongst BRICS countries in the establishment of the New Development Bank and the Contingency Reserve Arrangement, what (a) progress has been made among BRICS partners and other developing countries with regard to industrial cooperation and investment, (b) are the key elements of the Ufa Declaration and Ufa Action Plan and (c) are the socio-economic benefits envisaged for the country and the African continent?                                          NO3011E


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the seventh Brics summit in Ufa, Russia, registered substantive progress. A key achievement was the entry into force of the Brics financial institutions, namely the New Development Bank, and the contingent reserve arrangements.


Two leading South African bankers have been appointed to the board of the new bank. They are Mr Leslie Maasdorp as one of the vice presidents and Mr Tito Mboweni as one of the nonexecutive directors. [Applause.]


The next exciting initiative is the establishment of the African regional centre of the bank in Johannesburg. South Africa is proud to host the regional centre and preparations are at an advanced stage.


Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is really a critical point of order. I will not tolerate a white man coming and speaking like that. I will not tolerate it! How dare he? How dare he? He’s at the door swearing at us. How dare he? I will not tolerate that language from him. [Interjections.] If you want to be “moered” [beaten up] let’s go outside and “moer” [beat up] each other! [Interjections.] I will not tolerate that!


Dr P J GROENEWALD: You’re most welcome.


Agb Speaker, toe ek wil inkom, toe het ’n agb lid my daar gestamp. Ek het vir hom gesê om my nie te stamp nie. [Hon Speaker, the hon member pushed me when I wanted to come in. I told him not to push me.]


The SPEAKER: Hon members, actually none of you have been given the floor. I prevail on you to please allow this Question session to proceed. [Interjections.]


Ms M S KHAWULA: [Inaudible.]


The SPEAKER: Hlala phantsi, [sit down] Mama Khawula. Can the President proceed?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The summit also reaffirmed the importance of Brics in the global arena. Brics presents an aggregate gross domestic product, GDP, exceeding US$32 trillion. This marks a 60% growth since the formation of the grouping. Brics also accounts for almost 30% of global GDP and produces a third of the world’s industrial products and one half of its agricultural goods.


In further progress, trade amongst the Brics countries has grown by 70% since 2009. Brics countries also attracted 20,5% of global total direct investment in 2014, compared to only 16,9% in 2009. A share of Brics capital investment on the global markets has also increased significantly from 9,7% to 14% since 2009. Brics leaders also adopted, as one of the key summit outcomes, a strategy for Brics economic partnerships aimed at further boosting trade and investment ties.


The Ufa Declaration focuses on important things such as global politics, world finance, economy and trade, co-operation in the social and humanitarian spheres as well as among parliaments, business and civil societies. The declaration also highlighted the upcoming 70th anniversary of the founding of the UN and reaffirmed commitment to the UN as a universal and multilateral organisation entrusted with promoting global peace, security, human rights and socioeconomic advancement.


The summit also provided an opportunity for Brics leaders to meet with the leadership of the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation and the Eurasian Economic Union. Regional leaders were invited as part of the new practice that was started by South Africa when we invited African Union, AU, leaders to the Durban Brics summit in 2013.


We stand ready to expand our economic co-operation with these partners in key areas such as food production, power generation, the petrochemical industry, mining, tourism, renewable and nuclear energy, trade, transportation, communications and training. I thank you. [Applause.]


Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: Thank you, hon Speaker and thank you hon President for your comprehensive response to my question. There are many countries, especially those with emerging economies, which seek clarity on how this New Development Bank of Brics will conduct its business. Moreover, we hope that this bank will adopt a propoor developmental agenda which can be used as a vehicle to transfer skills for the operational and developmental agendas of these economies.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the Brics New Development Bank has been established by the members of Brics who saw the need that there must be a bank that focuses on development, particularly in the Third World. However, it does not only deal with the Third World but with anyone who comes to seek support from the bank. It has been welcomed by all.


Firstly, the big world banks have received the Brics bank very well. They see it as an important additional factor in global financial transactions; and


Secondly, counties that have been disadvantaged for years are happier. That is the reason why, at the Brics summit in Durban, leaders of the AU, particularly those who lead specific projects, were invited to exchange views with the Brics leaders. This issue was discussed and the leaders of Brics said that the bank was at their disposal. It is going to be utilised to help quicken the pace of development in developing countries in particular, and of course deal with any other project.


So, it is a bank that many countries are looking forward to conducting business with, particularly the regional bank that is going to be in South Africa. It is, in the main, looked at as a bank that will be very close to African challenges and I think it’s going to be busier with the projects and the development of the continent which should include, among others, the financing of infrastructure in the continent as well as other projects. So the bank is not here to compete with any other bank but its here with one objective and one objective only; to assist those who are in need, without leaving problems unresolved. Thank you. [Applause.]


Prof N M KHUBISA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon President, I understand that for an ordinary citizen, be it an African or South African on the ground, the most important challenges for the country are unemployment, hunger, starvation and poverty. He or she is asking the following. Now that South Africa has committed so many billions into the bank, what is it that he or she will benefit from that transaction? Can the hon President tell ordinary South Africans what the dividends will be for them as citizens?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I’m not sure whether I can provide the smallest details of what the bank will do. All I know is that this bank is coming in, in the midst of many banks that are there, and what it is going to do is to provide developmental finances to projects that will therefore create employment. It means that if we look at the bank we are locking at a bank that is not going to deal with ordinary people in the manner that they have experienced in their lives. It is hoped that this bank will create conducive conditions for big and perhaps small projects so that it is easy to get the projects going and therefore create employment.


If I was a South African sitting somewhere, I would be saying that I am looking forward to a bank that is going to operate differently; in other words, a bank that will assist those who want to start projects of a developmental nature. That means that once the projects are funded and started, as I said, it means that jobs are being created. As a South African, I will say that I hope I will get a job. [Applause.]


Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, President Zuma’s new best friend in Brics, President Vladimir Putin, has in the last year annexed Crimea; invaded the Ukraine; and, wait for it, supports Sepp Blatter. He loves power; he hates freedom; and he thrives on corruption. That is why President Zuma feels so at home in Russia and in Brics.


My question to the President is the following. Does the President not agree that the R25 billion we will sink into the New Development Bank should be spent here in South Africa to create jobs, rather than sunk into the New Development Bank and spent on, for example fixing the roads in Malawi?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, I realise that the hon member knows Putin very well. I’m not sure whether the description given is a correct one; I’m not sure.


If we were to talk politics I’m sure we can go very far; however, this is not the time for politics. The reality is that we are part of Brics, and Brics has plans to develop and help developing countries. We looked at the bank from that point of view. It had to have seed money in order to operate ... and all those who are going to be conducting business with the Brics bank. In other words, the Brics bank will be able to raise the funds that will assist, in the main, member states of the Brics bank. South Africans will benefit from it.


In my initial response I spoke of how much intertrade between the Brics bank has grown over the last years. We are benefiting from it, as are all the members. We will benefit from all those billions that we have put in. If you are a business person – not even a state – in order for your business to grow you put capital in. Not so? It’s a normal routine. So I don’t know why it begs a question. That is what you do. If we open a bank we must capitalise it so that the bank will be stronger to deal with the problems we have. That is what we have done; nothing more. Thank you.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, the hon Maxon said that we should ask the question. Mr President, the greatest threat to any form of international development has been found by Global Financial Integrity, by the high levels of illicit financial flows, to be tax base erosion. I want to know how you are going to deal with that phenomenon. What is your government’s approach to dealing with tax base erosion and profit shifting, which are the greatest threats to any form of international development?


The second question is the following. Recently there has been a trade policy issue within the Brics component that we must deal with. ArcelorMittal SA said that we should increase tariffs of all steel coming from China. Are you going to increase tariffs in order to limit the steel coming from China in order to save the jobs that ArcelorMittal SA said are going to be saved?


So the two questions are, firstly, what is your government’s approach to tax base erosion; and secondly, how are you going to deal with the issues of trade policy, particularly tariff increases on products that come from China?. [Interjections.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I think the issue of how trade moves in the world is determined by market forces on the one hand. On the other hand there is a role that governments play. We are in a system which moves in a particular way and that people in the world should respond to. You can’t be a country that moves on its own while the system moves in a particular direction. Well, they talked about tax erosion or whatever. Even in our own country we have a system that affects tax systems, which enables countries to move forward as countries.


In dealing with the issue of iron ore, in terms of what happens when it goes out or in, the company you are referring to is a company that has been mining here and is still mining. ArcelorMittal SA has difficulties right now. We have been dealing with that issue because the arrangements that had been made before were the arrangements that brought problems to the very company. Therefore, those matters pertaining to the specifics with regard to the plights of the company are being discussed with the government. Therefore, we are discussing what to do with regard to the issue of steel as well. We have not come to a conclusion that we can say is policy which is taken because right now we are dealing with these issues, and commodities that are indeed in trouble. However, there are discussions.


Within Brics, part of the reason we are a group of Brics is because those are matters we have to talk about. How do we deal with trade between the countries in this group so that we are in a better position as a country in order for us to have favourable conditions that we can trade in?


Some of the trade issues are in fact determined by international organisations. So, we are part of the process. We must be part of negotiations and interactions in different kinds of relationships. In Brics the relations are different. There is the World Trade Organisation, WTO, that has its own and we are part of it. There are international organisations that determine how trade must be conducted between countries, as well as bilateral relations between countries. That’s how it is. Thank you. [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to draw your attention to Rule 113(7). When it comes to supplementary questions hon members must limit themselves to one supplementary question. We now come to Question 14 which has been asked by the hon Leader of the Opposition, hon Maimane.


Steps taken to strengthen the separation of powers entrenched in the constitution

14.        The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:


With reference to the Tripartite Alliance Summit Declaration of 1 July 2015 wherein it expresses concern that the very fundamental principle of separation of powers on which our democracy rests is being brought into question, what steps is he taking as the head of the executive to strengthen the separation of powers entrenched in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996?                                                                                                                                       NO2928E


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the Alliance Summit Declaration affirms the importance of an independent judiciary as one of the critical pillars upon which our constitutional democracy is premised.


As the ANC-led government, we have gone to great lengths to preserve and safeguard the separation of powers, and in particular the independence of the judiciary, which is pivotal for the advancement of the rule of law.


In this regard, government has taken measures to defend and protect the courts to ensure their independence, impartiality, dignity, accessibility and effectiveness. One of the key interventions was the enactment of the Constitution Seventeenth Amendment Act of 2012 and the Superior Courts Act of 2013, which affirm the Constitutional Court as the highest court in the Republic and the Chief Justice as the head of the judiciary. These affirmations put beyond doubt, the independence of the judiciary and the role of the courts as the final arbiter entrusted with the power of judicial review.


Another major policy reform was the establishment of the Office of the Chief Justice as a national department in August 2010. These measures are important milestones in the 21 years of democracy. They attest to the government’s unequivocal commitment to the separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary in particular.


The late Chief Justice Chaskalson made a profound pronouncement on the separation of powers and the respect that all three arms of the state must accord one another. In the famous Van Rooyen judgment he said: “In a constitutional democracy such as ours, in which the Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic, substantial power has been given to the judiciary to uphold the Constitution. In exercising such powers, obedience to the doctrine of the separation of powers requires that the judiciary, in its comments about the other arms of the state, show respect and courtesy, in the same way that these other arms are obliged to show respect for, and courtesy to the judiciary and one another. They should avoid gratuitous reflections on the integrity of one another”.


This is instructive as we prepare for the meeting of the judiciary and the executive to discuss working relations between the two arms of the state later this month, which I will host. I thank you.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Greetings to the President, crucial to this issue is that, Mr President, when you took oath as the President of the Republic you swore to the people of this country that you will uphold the law, you will guard and protect the Constitution. Section 165 of the Constitution gives the courts powers that an order of the court is binding on any person and any organ of state. What I am trying to understand here is that in 2010 you were in this House, at this podium and you were asked the question whether if Omar al-Bashir would come to South Africa you would arrest him. According to Hansard, your response, in this Parliament, was as follows: “South Africa respect international law and certainly are signatories and we would abide by the law”.

Mr President, my struggle here today is that what has changed since 2010 that recently, in contravention of a High Court order that said your government should have in fact arrested Omar al-Bashir, a man wanted for war crimes, for genocide against Africans, your government assisted in allowing him to leave South Africa. What has in fact change? Therefore, my question to you is in respecting the principle of the separation of powers do you not believe that executive led by you over-reached and ultimately violated that sacred principle of the separation of powers by assisting Omar al-Bashir to leave?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly I gave the answer, and the answer that I gave when I was here stands. No Al-Bashir was invited by South Africa to come and do business here. His coming to South Africa was by invitation of the African Union, AU. The AU met here and he was the guest of the AU. When the AU was here ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Order!


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... having asked to hold the summit here, where the AU would be operating, as it happens in the United Nations, became the area of the AU. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Order!


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: That is why, 10 days before, the Minister of International Relations and Co-operations gazetted the area that would be the AU area, from the airport to the specific areas where heads of state would be staying. [Interjections.] So, Al-Bashir was here for the AU, not visiting South Africa, as I said when I was here. [Applause.]


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, Madam Speaker ...


The Speaker: No, hon ...


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, no, no. The President is saying the airport and Sandton. Omar Al-Bashir landed/left/14:45 in Waterkloof. [Interjections.] It is important that ... [Interjections.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I didn’t say the airport and ... [Interjections.] I said the areas where the Au is operating. [Interjections.] That is the difference my brother. Al-Bashir did not come to South Africa on the invitation of South Africa. He came here to do continental business, invited by the continental organisation. We have no right to violate the AU rules. [Interjections.]


Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon President, you have referred to the legislation since 2010, 2012 and 2013. You have assured this House that that legislation was effective enough to protect the separation of powers in the three spheres of government. The concern of the IFP is that, in spite of the legislation you referred to, this year we still get malicious criticism of the judiciary. What should happen to protect the dignity and the authority of the judiciary? Thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the discussion is made slightly problematic if we generalise because I wouldn’t know which specific case the hon member is talking about. There have been criticisms and opinions or comments made in all directions. Certainly, if there were comments that interfere with that law or that Act, certainly, we will need to bring the matter to the table to discuss and if we know who did so, to say to them that is never done. [Interjections.] Thank you.


Mr S M RALEGOMA: Hon President, now that you will be meeting with the judiciary on the 27 August 2015, do you intend to raise the question of unwarranted comments that have been made by some judges outside the courts that might have precipitated the alleged or real undermining of the judiciary and the erosion of the principle of separation of powers. [Interjections.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I don’t think I need to discuss the agenda between the judiciary and the executive. I think we should leave that matter for that meeting. I think it would not be wise that I start dealing with the media when I am going to deal with the judiciary in a meeting. Certainly if there are issues on both sides that have brought dissatisfaction that will be the moment to discuss the matters. However, I don’t think I would want to dwell on the matters here - on the content. Thank you.


The SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa. It looks like hon Holomisa is not in the House. [Interjections.] Alright, he is happy to pass. There is another member I could take, hon Chewane ...


Mr S J MALEMA: Thank you very much hon ...


The Speaker: The last time I checked you were hon Malema.


Mr S J MALEMA: The secretary general pressed Chewane’s thing and said I can ask a question. Mr President, I like this question because when the rule to remove members from Parliament was passed and supported by the DA they said: “They want to ask the question about Al-Bashir and you answered the question about Al-Bashir”. And then what? Finished, there is nothing that is going to happen. The question about Al-Bashir has been answered and the what? There is a permanent rule to remove Members of Parliament in the name of Al-Bashir but the real question I want to ask you is: Minister Nhleko said the judges meet with certain people to produce certain judgments. A sitting Minister says that. I am sympathetic to hon Nzimande because he might be articulating that in a different capacity of the party and the ANC has got the right to express itself on any matter that affects South Africa. However, a Cabinet Minister who has no any other excuse except to say he was speaking to a group of Independent Police Investigative Directorate. It was an official duty, and in that official duty he says: “Judges meet with certain people to produce certain judgment. What is your comment about that? Have you condemned the hon Minister?


Mr President, on Al-Bashir, I am happy you did not arrest him. We were not going to agree to the arrest of an African leader in South Africa to polarise Africa and make South Africa the enemy of the whole of Africa. However, I do not agree with violation of a court order. The proper argument you have advanced now is the argument your people should have advanced in appealing the earlier judgment against Al-Bashir. However, we are happy that you did not arrest him. Thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, well on the matter of Al- Bashir we can talk more about that and I appreciate your views about it but we can have time to talk about that. However, with regard to the Minister, unfortunately I didn’t here him. It is for the first time I hear that. [Interjections.] It is literally the first time I hear that. [Interjections.] It is going to be very difficult for me to judge because I don’t know under which circumstances was that said at all. I don’t think I can stand and judge. If I have heard that, I am sure I would have interacted with the Minister, but I did not hear him. It is for the first time that I actually hear that.  Thank you very much.


Mr S J MALEMA: But hon President, ...


The SPEAKER: No, no hon Malema ...


Mr S J MALEMA: ... with due respect hon Speaker, I brought the matter to your attention. Please attend to this man; he is compromising you – Nhleko, please!

Clarity on meaning of the concept of African solutions to African problems


15.       Adv B T Bongo (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:


In light of the fact that the country is held in high regard internationally for its significant role in peacekeeping missions in Africa under the auspices of both the African Union and the United Nations and that since the establishment of democracy in 1994 the country has been in the forefront of inculcating a culture of human rights both within and outside its borders, what is meant by the concept of African solutions to African problems that has been used in various meetings and in decision-making to address challenges on the continent?                                       NO3012E


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the principle of African solutions to African problems embodies the fundamental commitment of African leaders to take full responsibility for the fate of the continent and its peoples.


In the advancement of this principle of African solutions to African problems, the African Union established the African Peace and Security Council Architecture in 2002. This mechanism encompasses the Peace and Security Council, the African Standby Force, the Continental Early Warning System, the Peace Fund and the Panel of the Wise. The African Standby Force will enable the AU to intervene in a member state in grave circumstances such as war crimes, genocide or crimes against humanity.


Africa also utilises the mechanism of regional involvement in the search for solutions. Examples of this approach can be found in recent and current conflict situations such as in South Sudan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Lesotho, to mention a few. In these cases, the Intergovernmental Authority on Development in East Africa, the Southern African Development Community, and the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region are some of the subregional organisations that were able to address security issues in their regions as they emerged.


The principle of African solutions to African problems does not however preclude the continent from working with the United Nations, UN, and other global partners. This is appreciated and understood by the United Nations as illustrated by UN Resolution 2033 of 2012 where the UN Security Council commits to taking the cue from the African Union Peace and Security Council and defers taking decisions before the AU pronounces itself on the matters at hand.


The principle of African solutions to African problems also enables the establishment of norms and principles that address issues such as political accountability, rejection of unconstitutional changes of government, the promotion of peaceful resolution of conflicts as well as the postconflict reconstruction and development, all of which are central to conflict resolution.


In the South African context, we proudly applied the principle of African solutions to African problems during our own process of the transition from apartheid colonialism to democracy. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr I M OLLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I didn’t want to interrupt the President, but the hon Malema has misled the House. The President has answered his question, and now what? Nothing.


Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Madam Speaker! On a point of order, Madam Speaker ...


Mr I M OLLIS: He didn’t even break his bench. He didn’t sing; he didn’t dance. Nothing.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, you cannot raise a point of order on top of another one. Please! [Interjections.]


Mr I M OLLIS: I am just making the point ...


The SPEAKER: Please finish, hon member, because I just hear you commenting. I do not hear a point of order.


Mr I M OLLIS: I will finish, hon Speaker. I am just making the point ... my point of order is that he misled the House. Nothing is going to happen to his questions either. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]


Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, you have to rule on this man who mentions me. I don’t understand why I am mentioned in this manner with the serious allegation of having misled the country. Please rule on that. He is out of order. If he is out of order, you must tell him that he is out of order. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Actually, the Rule is that the word “deliberately” would have been wrong. Therefore, he has not accused you of anything unparliamentary. [Interjections.] He had not said that you deliberately misled the House. That is what the Rule requires, so he was just making a comment.


Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, I accept the ruling. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]


Adv B T BONGO: Speaker, I would like to thank His Excellency President Zuma for his elaborate and comprehensive response. Would the President kindly share with the House when the African rapid response force will be operationalised and to what extent it will assist in resolving and/or minimising some of the conflicts that currently affect the continent and that might affect the continent in the future? Thank you once more, President.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I would not be able to state the exact date that it will be ready, but in terms of the discussions by the AU leaders, when it was clear that the African Standby Force which had been discussed for a long time was taking longer – whilst problems were occurring in different places, there was a discussion then to establish, in the mean time, the immediate rapid force that would be utilised. What people are faced with is the problem of how to finance or fund such a force. Because the African Standby Force is taking too long to become operational, there will a kind of arrangement as to how it will be financed.


Countries in Africa that were keen to have the rapid reaction force then discussed the matter and felt that countries that would be members of this force would certainly contribute from their own coffers so that it can operate and stop the pockets of tension on the continent. The work is ongoing. According to the report given by the chiefs of army of the different countries, they had thought that before this year ends, it would be operational. So, we are waiting to hear that. I think, according to their report, it should be operational before December. However, I would not be able to offer the date. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]


Mr M A MNCWANGO: Speaker, through you to the hon President: We speak of African solutions to African problems, but where is the continental political will to address problems like the conflicts in Burundi, for instance, and the outbreak of Ebola on the west coast of Africa?


Since this phrase entered the African lexicon in 2007, it has proven to be of no real value to the continent or its people. It has been said that its sole value has been the advance of zero-sum interest. What are you doing, Mr President, to ensure real – not cosmetic – African solutions to African problems?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I don’t entirely agree with the hon member that there has been no effort to do so. I think there have been a lot of efforts, including the two examples that he referred to.


For example, with Ebola, Africa came together and, even though the countries do not have the same resources, they individually participated in helping the countries that suffered the Ebola outbreak. This includes the continental medical organisation that met to discuss and find ways and means to assist. The organisation was assisted by countries outside of the continent too. As South Africa, as a country, I don’t think it is not known that we made a contribution to address that problem.


During the last summit, countries that suffered the Ebola outbreak actually thanked the African countries for the contributions they made to address the problem that was more prevalent here in Africa than elsewhere. So, that cannot be used as an example to claim nothing was done.


On the issue of Burundi, I think once the President of Burundi said he was going to stand and there was a problem, many of us interacted with him and other Burundians to say that might not help the country. It ended in a summit of East African countries to which South Africa was invited as a participant to discuss the matter. We cannot say there was no effort put into trying to solve that African problem. The leader of the country operates within his own constitution. When we say that we want African solutions to African problems, we are not saying we are going to ride roughshod over constitutions and other things that people are saying in their own countries. We cannot do so.


There is a limit to the lengths you can go. I think I was among the first to send an envoy to go and talk to him. I said I think the decision he had taken would lead the country into trouble, also because of my knowledge of Burundi. He said that he would not cause trouble, that he had taken a decision, that he had the constitution on his side, and the court had pronounced it to be a constitutional matter. Once you reach that stage, you cannot force yourself. In other words, if an African leader is not interested in your efforts of participating as an African to find an African solution, it becomes difficult.


I just wanted to make that kind of difference because with every other problem that has emerged, as Africans, we have tried to move to address those matters. It does not mean we will solve all matters at the right time. I think we have solved a lot of matters in relation to that, and we can count a number of them. So, I wouldn’t agree that this kind of expression has not been respected or practised. It has been practised; it has helped Africa in a large measure other than a few incidences where people did not agree. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]


Ms H O MAXON: Madam Speaker, through you to the President: South Africa, under your leadership, has descended to shallow, pitiful levels in as far as promoting African sovereignty and African solutions to African problems is concerned. Mr President, it was your government that voted with imperialists for the killing of Muammar Gaddafi under resolution 1973. Within the country, we have presided over apartheid-style human rights violations, including the killing of workers in Marikana whom you claimed deserved to die because they had also killed people and the shooting of those who protest in demand of government services. You also said that if people resort to violence during strikes, you will be forced to revisit apartheid-era crowd control measures, including the rule in this Parliament to assault EFF members who are holding you accountable for your sins, Mr President. Now, do you share the view that under your leadership, the country has descended into a police state that kills its people to protect the interests of the few? [Interjections.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the hon member is counting a lot of incidents that happened, all of which happened under different circumstances. [Interjections.]


Lalela phela uma ungalaleli angizukukutshela lutho ngoba ngiyakhuluma manje. [Uhleko.] Manje uma ngikhuluma nawe ukhuluma ububuzelani-ke? Hhawu! (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Please, listen for I cannot tell you anything if you are not listening for I am talking now. [Laughter.] Why did you ask a question then because I am talking, and you are also talking? Really!

Ms H O MAXON: Madam Speaker, I have asked the President, and I am listening attentively. I don’t know what he is talking about.


The SPEAKER: Can you just continue listening?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I am talking to the members who are talking. I am talking to the members who are talking, and I don’t think we should ... [Interjections.] No, hon Speaker, I am answering the question, and I am saying ...


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please allow the President to answer hon Maxon’s question. [Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order, Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon Shivambu?


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, in terms of the parliamentary Rules we are allowed to converse amongst each other. [Interjections.] That is what we are doing. You are the ones who must tell us if we are making a noise. You have not done so yet. [Interjections.] All of us are speaking ...

The SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. Hon Shivambu, please, we have heard you. The President is ready to answer the hon Maxon.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... must answer questions. Please!


The SPEAKER: He is ready to answer. Please take your seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, on a point of order: The President directly referred to us, directly spoke to members. Everybody must speak through you. The President must respect the Rules of this House. [Interjections.] So, call him to order! Don’t be afraid! Call him to order! He must have order, or we are going to get those security officers to remove him if he is not going to abide by the Rules! [Interjections.] He cannot speak to us directly. He must speak to us through you. That is how we deal with things here. Please! Please call the President to order! Don’t be scared! I will assist you!


The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Ndlozi. Please proceed, hon President.


Mrs C DUDLEY: On a point of order, Madam Speaker ...




Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the gallery ...


Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee, I am listening to the point of order.


Mr G A GARDEE: She is out of order, that one! [Laughter.] That one is out of order. If she doesn’t have members in the gallery, she must just shut up and sit down ... [Interjections.] ... that we should be beaten here, that one.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, take your seat!


Mr G A GARDEE: Yes, she must sit down!


The SPEAKER: You must sit down, hon Gardee! Hon Dudley?


Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I just wanted to mention that the gallery is participating in all of the discussions. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Yes, I think it is a valid point to raise, and I would like to appeal to the gallery and state that the guests in the gallery are welcome, but they are not expected to participate by clapping. That is a political activity reserved for the floor here, but I really want to welcome the honourable guests in the gallery.


Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker.


The SPEAKER: What now, hon Malema?


Mr J S MALEMA: No, with due respect, hon Speaker.


The SPEAKER: What is it?


Mr J S MALEMA: He raised a very important point. The President speaks to us directly and he must speak to us through you. It is a simple thing. We are asking you to tell the President not to repeat that mistake of speaking to us. If he does that we are going to speak to him like that and you will lose control.


The SPEAKER: No, no, hon Malema, take your seat. We have heard what the hon member has said. Hon President, please continue answering the question.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, firstly, on the examples that the hon member gave, I wish the hon member had all the information when the Security Council voted on the matter of Libya. Firstly, at that time we had the right to vote on a matter. It was raised, in the first instance, by the Arab League in the Security Council. It was not raised by other people. It had been discussed what to do. At that time there was an eminent clash as Gaddafi was making threats. Voting on the matter was to avoid what was being said that he was going to flush out the cockroaches, etc. That is the language he used. It was important to participate in a vote to save the lives.


What the big countries did was to abuse that kind of a decision. At that time the African Union, AU, had worked out a road map which was saying that let us solve the problem in a manner in which the African organisation had agreed. I was part of that committee. We went as far as Trípoli to engage with Gaddafi, and not once because it was important in a sense to diffuse that situation from an African point of view. That was undermined by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Nato, members who used that resolution to attack and finally kill Gaddafi.


We did not vote for Gaddafi to be killed. That issue has been as clear as anything. The resolution was debated in the Security Council with the participation of the Arab League, and with the participation of the three African countries that were taking that decision. We did not vote for either the war, the attacks or the bombings to continue, but the countries voted to stop the threats and the attacks emerging out of the threats that had been made. I just thought it is important to put the facts straight because they are very important. [Applause.]


With regard to Marikana, what happened at Marikana is that there was a strike. What happened is that the workers were armed to the teeth and had already used those weapons to kill innocent people - about 10 of them had died. The police were trying to stop them from not to have that kind of killing continue. How the police handled that matter that has been a subject of a commission of inquiry and the findings. The police had acted in a particular way, and I’m not a judge. The matter that we are referring to I was responding to the person who was heckling in a meeting. The heckling was as if the police came and just murdered the people who were innocently sitting. And I was saying the police were stopping further killings because 10 people had already died. I was explaining that point.


With regard to how the members of the EFF were taken out of Parliament forcefully, really I was standing here. I did not take any decision of that nature. It is not within my [Interjections.] I was here where I am. So, you can’t blame me for that [Applause.] And the country has not gone down. The country is moving ahead, it is developing and it is fine. It is not true that ever since me the country is now going down, I don’t agree, it’s not. The country is being governed very responsibly. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]


Mr S MOKGALAPA: Hon Speaker, Mr President, African solutions to African problems should be about consistency and fairness in application of the rules. We are observing security and political crisis all across Africa recently. You have just mentioned the crisis in Burundi. And in some instances the African leaders have been lacklustre and even failed outright to resolve some of these crisis, for example, leaders who overstay in power.


Worse so, the African Union even passed a resolution excluding seating heads of states and senior government officials from facing prosecution on crimes against humanity, which you shamelessly supported at the AU.


Mr President, I think that it is more accurate to say that Africa decides to bring selective solutions to selective African problems. Same as you did and you selected the option of not arresting the war crimes accused Omar al-Bashir which you were duty bound.


The question is: In what way is South Africa truly ensuring that its influence on the continent ensures that peace and justice is fairly, and not selectively, applied? I thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, firstly, the application of the principle is not selective. I have just explained that situations are not the same. If a particular country has a view and you are walking there you can’t force them to do what you think they should do. We are applying democratic principles of persuasion, convincing and influencing. If they don’t do that you can’t force them. You can’t go and bomb them and say I am forcing you to do this, it can’t be.


I think we have succeeded in doing so. Africa has moved from where it was. Now coups in Africa are no longer an accepted phenomenon, and we are agreed in that one as African countries. No military man can take over as it used to be. That has been an influence that many countries including South Africa have been exercising in the continent.


We have a Peer Review Mechanism where countries volunteer to be evaluated by their peers who can be very critical if there are things that are being wrongly done and it is gaining momentum all the time. There are many successes in this principle. There will be few exceptions and we agree to that.


In Burundi, for example, even its own regions could not succeed to pursue. Like those who may want to stay longer. But I think even if you were talking about Burundi, the man is not saying I am going to stay long for ever. He had argued a point through a constitutional point and the court has supported him. The judiciary has supported him. That is correct and he is insisting therefore to implement the decision of the court. So there is a dynamism there that you are not looking at. If he did not, you would be saying that they don’t respect the court’s ruling. There is a judge ruling that was made on the issue of Burundi. Whether you agree with it or not, it is a different matter because of the situation in Burundi.


You can count a few countries to see what happened. For example, there had been developments in other countries wherein one of the leaders in front of all of us, because he felt there are things he still needs to do, he went to the people and ask for a referendum, and the people said that you stay. That’s democracy. He has gone to parliament to enact a law and make it legal because the people have said so. So there are different circumstances. That has just happened in Rwanda [Laughter.]


Uyajabula wena owazi ukuthi ngiyahlela. [You are delighted for knowing that I am planning.]


So, all what I am saying is that the principle has worked to a large extent. I did not say 100%, but I said to a large extent it has worked, and it is a fact. I have engaged with other leaders in the continent discussing these issues and many, many other issues. I don’t think I will agree with a notion that says that this principle is not working. No, it is working and it has worked largely in the continent and we are working on it. We can’t force people, but we have to talk with them, we have to influence them and we have to nudge them until we are at the right point.


That one has been explained. I don’t know why the hon member went back to al-Bashir because it was explained. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Progress flowing from resolutions taken at 25th African Union Summit


16.       Ms T Mahambehlala (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:


In light of the resolutions taken at the 25th African Union Summit on 7 to 15 June 2015 which places Africa on a new path of development and growth, (a) how has the call for the industrialisation of Africa been met through the resolutions of the specified summit and (b) what form of economic diplomacy will be required to ensure a qualitative outcome of the resolutions passed?                                                      NO3013E


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Hon Speaker, the African Union Summit in Malabo in 2014 had directed the African Union Commission to explore and prepare concrete actions in the implementation of priority programmes and projects identified in Agenda 2063. The 25th African Union Summit that took place in South Africa in June 2015 adopted the first 10 years implementation plan of the African Union Agenda 2063. These include: the integrated high speed train network, accelerating the creation of the continental free trade area, the African passport, the implementation of the Yamoussoukro decision on the unification of the African airspace, implementation of the Grand Inga Dam Project, the Pan African e-Network as well as the Presidential Infrastructure Championing Initiative, PICI, which is chaired by South Africa.


The PICI is aimed at unblocking obstacles in the implementation of infrastructure development projects in the continent under the auspices of the Programme for Infrastructure Development in Africa, Peda. All these projects and programmes are aimed at fast tracking industrialisation, inclusive growth and sustainable development on the African continent. Sadec has also developed a special programme called the Sadec Regional Industrialisation Strategy which is linked to the broader continental industrialisation programme.


With regards to economic diplomacy, it should be noted that Africa remains the centerpiece of South Africa’s global economic strategy. South Africa has consistently championed broader regional integration through the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, Sadec, the Tripartite Free Trade area as well as the envisaged Continental Free Trade Area. We promote economic integration that takes place on three fronts, namely: market integration infrastructure development and industrial development. We have also identified the urgent need to address the lack of manufacturing capacity in the majority of African countries. Thank you Madam Speaker.


Ms T MAHAMBEHLALA: Madam Speaker, hon President, thank you for you informative response. Is the private sector going to be afforded an opportunity to participate in the process leading into the establishment of the continental free trade union because already some are playing an instrumental role in our economic diplomacy programme? Thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, yes, the private sector is going to play a role. In fact they have been participating on the sidelines of these meetings, they have been engaged and they are part of the process. There will be no serious industrialisation without their participation. Therefore, Africa felt that it is important that they should be engaged and be part of the process. They are very happy as well, they are actually playing a role already and we believe that co-ordination will now improve.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Mr President, earlier on we raised a question about illicit financial flows and you seemed to waffle when you answered. You kept on speaking about systems and I suspect it is because you have paid detailed attention to the Mbeki-led High Commission report on the continent in terms of the impact of illicit financial flows and industrialisation. Maybe it is because Mbeki might have problems to read his reports. You said that you studied the Marikana Commission report which also put this question central. You held it for 90 days, remember? You said you are closely studying it. Now, please advice us because if you are talking about industrialisation that affects the continent then one of the fundamental challenges is the phenomena of tax based erosion. What is your government’s policy on tax based erosion and illicit financial flows. Thank you.


The SPEAKER: Although I must point out that hon members raise new questions which are totally new questions, however, the hon President will respond.




Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, on a point of order. Mistress, Mistress Speaker, can you please not be condescending.


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am on a point of order.


The SPEAKER: Allow him to raise his point of order. I give him that opportunity.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: We are talking about industrialisation and if you do not appreciate that this question is related to what we are talking about it might be because you do not understand as well. Please don’t condescend my question; I think you must withdraw those remarks. You say we must come for a question session, we ask questions and now you are condescending.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Hon Ndlozi, you might actually take your own advice but now I want to give the President the opportunity to proceed.


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I had a point of order.


The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Minister Zulu.


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: The first point of order is that not very long ago we were in this House and we decided on adopting rules that give guidance to this House and we agreed in this House that members will speak only on the basis when they are pointed by the Speaker. That is the first point of order. My second point of order is that I do not really believe that it is in order for any member of this House to insult the Speaker of the House. The Point of order here is that all of us adopted a set of rules which covered each and every member in this House. Nobody else has a right to stand up and abuse this platform of the House. Speaker, I request that the rules that we adopted in this House must be ... [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I think that she is waffling in her preamble. She is disturbing the President; the President must continue answering the question. Let her sit down. [Applause.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Hon Speaker, yes, the African countries took a decision to industrialise the continent. It was also the AU that asked former President Mbeki to investigate tax erosion in African countries. He gave a report that should be looked at and say what else can we do. It does not stop African leaders from talking about what they want to do with regard to the industrialisation of the continent nor can we wait until that matter is resolved. That is why we are talking about industrialization which must happen as we move forward as African countries to link Africa, create integration and deal with those matters whilst we are dealing with the outcomes of the Mbeki report.


Mbeki presented the report to the AU. The AU looked at it and took a decision about what needs to be done in so far as the report is concerned. There is tax erosion but we can’t stop moving forward whilst solving that particular problem. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr M HLENGWA: Mr President, you also touched on the issue of the SA Customs Union, I just want to find out where do you place that given the current tension in terms of the formula used to give money to member states at the end of each year? The context is that there is a Continental Free Trade era being mooted and already in Egypt you launched the Tripartite Free Trade Area. The issue is what happens to Sacu in all these Free Trade Area agreements that you are talking about because already there is tension and suggestions that South Africa may be pulling out of Sacu and if that is the case it will mean a collapse and by and large of many of the member state countries of Sacu who are wholly dependent on the money that flows out of Sacu. We need to be in a position to be able to place Sacu and find out if it will continue to exists and if it does, in what context does it exist, particularly in the Free Trade Area that the continent is now moving towards. Thank you.


THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, there is nothing like South Africa moving out of Sacu, if that has been rumoured, it is just an empty rumour. We are in Sacu and we are discussing Sacu matters within its framework as to how do we make it work better. There are a number of countries that belong to a number of organisations. Some of the countries that are part of Sadec are also part of other regional organisations. If we do the integration, I am sure at a certain time that these organisations will look at whether and evaluate if they should exist or not because the proximity of other countries and other countries that may be on other regions may actually say that you continue with other kinds of formations as long as their activities are helping the countries to develop rather than them moving backwards. So, there will be an evaluation whether this is useful or not. We can’t start by saying, even before we conclude the integration that we must not forget about other structures. The other approach might be how those structures dovetail to the structures that have developed. We cannot have a definitive decision about what will happen to other organisations once we reach a particular level. These are organisations that exist and that have part of the economic interactions. As we develop, we look at them and see whether they are useful or not and we will then take decisions at that point. Thank you.


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Madam Speaker, President, your answers on economic questions today have shown this House and South Africa how little interest you take and attention you pay to important issues on a daily basis. In fact listening to your answers today, it is little wonder that our economy is in the condition that it is. But to the question at hand, for as long as one can find records, the AU summits have always called for greater trade between African countries but progress has been painfully slow. Last month you and Minister Davies trumpeted the launch of negotiations on the Tripartite Free Trade Area in Egypt. However, interestingly, even though most African countries participating in those negotiations have signed agreements, we have not. South Africa is by far the largest trading nation on the continent and that we have not signed the agreement undermines the whole TFTA process.


South Africa cannot have it both ways. We cannot free trade in Africa but practice protectionism here at home. The question is, can you tell us why we have not yet signed the TFTA agreement? Can you commit today that we will sign the TFTA agreement and can you tell us exactly when? Thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Hon Speaker, it does not mean that if we did not sign at a particular time you may not sign at a given time but that you might still be looking at other issues that you need to do. You do not necessarily have to say when. Unless we have expressly said that we are not going to sign then that is a different matter. South Africa might have said that we will sign but we are still dealing with other issues. It is going to depend on when are we going to deal with those issues.




The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Issues that are known by government. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] You see, one of the things you need to do if you want to be a government unless you want to run a government from an opposition. If you want to run a government then you must win elections. Just win elections then you can be part of those issues. [Applause.] These are government issues, they are not opposition issues. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] You are not coming. You are not going to arrive in any way; you will be coming until you are an old man. [Applause.] [Laughter.] Thank you.


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Madam Speaker, I am sorry to press the President on this but actually I just asked for a simple commitment. Will we sign? Can he answer that question?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: I have answered the question. [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: May I address you Madam Speaker?


The SPEAKER: On what, hon Steenhuisen?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On the point that we have these question sessions so that we can get answers. A simple question was asked and when the President doesn’t answer simple questions like that then it undermines the whole process. So, I will ask the President to answer hon Hill-Lewis’ question, will South Africa sign the agreement?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order.


The SPEAKER: The hon President has answered, maybe not to your satisfaction. But he has answered.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, I just wanted to indicate that that’s a Rule he should have passed in this House and not that of beating people. He should have passed rules to make sure that the President answers. [Interjections.] Now we are in a question session ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please let us pass to the next question.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, the question has not been answered.


The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen ... [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, the question has not been answered. It was a simple question which needed a yes or no answer. It did not ask for a waffle with cream and ... [Interjections.] ... it asked for a specific question.


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, no. Can we call security? [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, there was an answer from the podium. The fact that it is not satisfactory is a different question.


Mr G A GARDEE: Under which rule is here standing up? The bouncers will deal with him. [Interjections.] He is out of order, Madam Speaker. He is out of order.


The SPEAKER: Hon member just take your seat.


Mr G A GARDEE: Under which Rule is he standing up?


Plans of Government to turn the tide of dwindling foreign direct investment


17.       The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:


Despite anecdotal evidence showing new instances of investment into the country, the United Nations’ Conference on Trade and Development’s 2015 World Investment Report found that foreign direct investment (FDI) in the country decreased by 31% during the period under review and also found that outward FDI flows increased by more than 10% as South African companies sought profits elsewhere in the world, what plans and targeted interventions does the Government have in place to turn the tide of dwindling foreign investment and ultimately the loss of jobs because of this decreased business confidence in our economy?     NO2929E


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, according to the World Investment Report released by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development in June 2015, aggregate global foreign direct investment, FDI, inflows declined by 16% in 2001, as a result of the continued, uneven and weak recovery of the global economy after the 2008 global financial crisis.


Not surprisingly, South Africa was also affected and FDI inflows slowed by $8,3 billion in 2013. The FDI report 2015 by FDI intelligence, which tracks investment projects, also reports a decline in greenfield FDI projects, globally. Nevertheless, South Africa still attracted a substantial $5,7 billion of foreign direct investment in 2014.


South Africa was again the largest recipient of FDI on the African continent. South Africa also remains an attractive investment destination as per the latest Ernst and Young attractive destination survey. Multilaterals have affirmed South Africa as a regional manufacturing hub and have retained and expanded their investments in new plants. Many companies have invested in expansions, upgrades and new plants in South Africa.


However, South Africa cannot be complacent. During the state of the nation address, I announced a 9-point plan to push the economy forward, ignite growth and create jobs. The 9-point plan consists of the following: the revitalisation of the agriculture and agro-processing value chain; advancing beneficiation and adding value to our mineral wealth; more effective implementation of a higher impact industrial policy action plan; unlocking the potential of SMMEs, co- operatives, township and rural enterprises; resolving the energy challenge; stabilising the labour market; scaling-up private-sector investment; and growing the ocean economy.


We are also investing in cross-cutting areas to reform, boost and diversify the economy, which are interventions in firstly, science, technology and innovation, secondly, water and sanitation, thirdly, transport infrastructure, fourthly, broad-band roll-out and fifthly, state-owned companies.


Government is also committed to improve the investment climate and enhance the ease of doing business. The One-stop Interdepartmental Clearing House to attend to investor complaints and problems, which I announced in the state of the nation address, has been established, located at the Department of Trade and Industry.


In addition to South Africa being a destination for FDI, we are now also an important source of FDI on the African continent. The African continent is the next growth frontier. South Africa is in the fortunate position of having identified the growth opportunities in our continent, many years ago. This is why our trade policy prioritises regional development through the Tripartite Free Trade Area, which was signed last month in Egypt as well as the envisaged Continental Free Trade Area.


These agreements do not only open the door for South African exports, they also provide investment opportunities for companies owned by South Africans or which are domiciled in South Africa. These investments show the extent to which South African entrepreneurs and companies have become serious participants in the global economy, due to successes at home. I thank you. [Applause.]


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I see the old alliance between the EFF and ANC is back together and strong. It should ...


Mr S J MALEMA: Speaker, on a point of order: Mmusi, you went to vote on rules with these people to beat up the Members of Parliament.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, it cannot be. [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: You come here and you tell us ... [Interjections.] We are not in any alliance with these people. You voted for them, man. You came here and voted for Members of Parliament to be beaten. [Interjections.] You did that. [Interjections.] You are in an alliance with the ANC to assault Members of Parliament and then you come here and tell us that we are in alliance with the ANC. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, can you please take your seat. [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: This person is out of order. [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, he must withdraw, because he voted with the ruling party. He must withdraw ... [Interjections] ... insinuation, henceforth. [Interjections.] ... he must please withdraw.


The SPEAKER: Can you please proceed with your ...


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I can’t because it ...


Mr G A GARDEE: He must withdraw.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, please take your seat.


Mr G A GARDEE: Yes, he must withdraw.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: [Interjections.]... the President, so I will rather proceed.


Mr M M DLAMINI: Madam Speaker, there is no proceeding until this guy withdraws what he is saying, because ... [Interjections.] He must withdraw what he is saying. He is talking nonsense! [Interjections.]


Nksz M S KHAWULA: Inkinga ingoba bekufuneka sishayiwe. Siyachukuluzwa manje.


USOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi.


Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sebenza sihlalo, sebenza sihlalo, sebenza sihlalo. [Ubuwelwele.]


USOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi. Awuhlale phansi mama uKhawula


Nksz M S KHAWULA: Kulungile ngizohlala-ke, akahoxise lento ayishoyo. [ubuwelwele.] Uyasisukela. Siyilindele impi uma kufanele kuliwe lana. [Ubuwelewele.] Asigqokile lutho ubona nje, siyadunusa manje, kubonakale. [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelwele](Translation of is isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[Ms M S KHAWULA: The issue is that we were supposed have been beaten up. We are being provoked now.


The SPEAKER: Take your seat please.


Ms M S KHAWULA: Do your work Chairperson, do your work Chairperson, do work Chairperson. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Take your seat, please. Take your seat, hon Khawaula.

Ms M S KHAWULA: It is fine, I will take my seat but he must withdraw what he said. [Interjections.] He is provoking us. We are ready for war should there be war in here. [Interjections.] We did not put on our underwear as you see us here, we will expose our buttocks now to prove it. [Applause.] [Interjections.]]


The SPEAKER: I need to actually check the Hansard to hear what he was saying about the EFF. So, I will check that.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I rise on Rule 61. The hon Malema referred to the hon Leader of the Opposition as Mmusi. We know in this House, we call each other either Mr Maimane or hon Maimane. It seems very clear that they can’t take their own medicine. They are happy to dish it out, but they can’t take it.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: It should be the BFF, but let’s continue. [Interjections.] Hon President, when you came into office in 2009, unemployment was at 31%, today it stands at 34,9%. Sixty-six percent of that is young South Africans, 70% of that is black youth. Mr President, it has become clear that in 2011, when you came in, you told South Africa that you would create 5 million jobs. Instead, in the same period of time, we have lost 1,7 million people who can’t find work.


In this instance, other African states are growing at a level much higher than us. Hon President, it is quite clear to me that we, in fact, face a job crisis and it is epitomised by what is happening in the mining and manufacturing sectors.


My difficulty here is that you have had Minister Patel who has been here tabling different economic plans that change from one day to the next. When are you going to get rid of him, if we are just going to continue with soaring levels of unemployment? Is he fit to keep his job as Minister of ... [Interjections.] ... while there is no economic development? Is hon Patel going to keep his job, if we have soaring levels of unemployment continuing? Thank you very much.


The SPEAKER: I want to advise hon members not to spend their one minute making speeches, when they only need to get on with the supplementary question.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Hon Minister Patel is going to keep his job. Thank you. [Interjections.]


Mr N S MATIASE: Speaker, it is clear that the government of the President’s overreliance on FDIs is not working for the poorest of the poor in this country. Without strong, massive and protected industrialisation, South Africa’s reliance of FDIs will remain where it is. The people in Queenstown, Whittlesea, Botshabelo, Qwaqwa, who used to get employment in industries around those areas are asking the question, when FDIs are going to give them employment. Secondly,...


The SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, you are allowed only one question.


Mr N S MATIASE: This is a continuation of the same question, Madam Speaker. FDIs come here through multinational companies of which some members of the Cabinet of the President are shareholders and they have an interest in those companies. The question is: What is the President going to do with Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa’s company, Lonmin, which has diverted R1,2 billion through elicit financial outflows. What is your government going to do about an outright, obvious case of corruption and fraud that has been exposed through the Marikana report?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, the government does not interfere with business; otherwise, it will be chasing everybody. If companies take their decisions as companies, no matter who they belong to, it is their business to do so. You can’t do anything about it. That is how business is run. I don’t know whether that is true or not, but I am just making a general principle. If companies take decisions about their companies, government can’t come and say don’t do so. We can’t. We can’t run private companies, we run government. Thank you.


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The President is deliberately misleading the House when he says that he does not know whether they do it not.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, that is not a point of order.


Mr G A GARDEE: He appointed the Farlam Commission that made the finding that the Lonmin company of the Deputy President avoided tax by taking R1,3 billion to tax-haven countries. He cannot say that he does not know. [Interjections.] It is his Farlam Commission that made that finding.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, please take your seat. You are now out of order.


Mr S J MALEMA: Hon Chair, with due respect, when people take money that is supposed to come to the fiscus of the country, the President can’t say...


The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, can I advise you that, if you believe in what you are saying, you must bring it to this House as a substantive ...


Mr G A GARDEE: That is what we brought.


The SPEAKER: No, he must bring it as a substantive motion with accompanying evidence of all the things that you are saying.


Mr S J MALEMA: So, President, if these people take their money illegally to tax havens, like Lonmin of Cyril did in Marakana, must that be allowed? That is out of order.




Mr S J MALEMA: This man is part of the people who are stealing the money in this country. Elicit financial flows. The master is the Deputy President.


The SPEAKER: UMongameli ebese khulumile. [The President has already spoken.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: No, I have answered that question.




Ms S J NKOMO: Hon President, yesterday, the mining Minister took the decision to revoke a licence to operate, which was owned by one of the few major global mining groups who had been prepared to invest in South Africa. What kind of signal does this send to foreign investors who are looking for a suitable political climate within which to operate? Thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, I did not hear who did that. I was distracted.


Ms S J NKOMO: Hon President, yesterday, the mining Minister took the decision to revoke a licence to operate, which was owned by one of the few major global mining groups who had been prepared to invest in South Africa. That is Glencor. What kind of signal does this send to foreign investors who are looking for a suitable political climate within which to operate? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, the Minister has not reported this to me. So, I don’t know what the facts around that decision are. I am just hearing the hon member talking about this decision. I can’t answer that question, because I don’t have the detailed report that says this is the decision that made that decision to be taken. Unfortunately, I will not guess. I can’t be a sangoma.


Mr D D D VAN ROOYEN: Mmusakgotla ... [Speaker ...]


... even if we agree that something that is a popular economic theory of capital - foreign direct investments - exert a positive impact on economic growth, we equally don’t agree that they are the only determinants for economic growth. Equally so, we think that an overreliance on foreign direct investments denies us an opportunity to focus on domestic investments and also denies us an opportunity to turn our market into extremely efficient markets. His Excellency, we support the 9-point plan, so, the question I want to pose is: In rolling out the 9-point plan, what are the lessons that have been learnt and what is the progress on the implementation of the 9-point plan. Thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, progress has been made by the different departments on the 9-point plan. In the lekgotla, they unveiled what is happening with 9-point plan. So, progress has been made. I am sure, if the hon members want to get that report, we can certainly give that detailed report. Thank you very much.


Position regarding repayment of money used for construction of nonsecurity features at Nkandla residence


18.       Mr J S Malema (EFF) asked the President of the Republic:


When will he pay back the money used for the construction of nonsecurity features such as the visitors’ centre, the amphitheatre, the cattle kraal and chicken run and the swimming pool, as directed by the Public Protector in paragraphs 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 of her report, in terms of which he was to take steps, with the assistance of the National Treasury and the SA Police Service, to determine the reasonable cost of the measures implemented by the Department of Public Works at his private residence at Nkandla that do not relate to security and to pay a reasonable percentage of the cost of the measures as determined with the assistance of the National Treasury and also taking into consideration the apportionment document of the Department of Public Works, in light of the remedial actions the Public Protector is empowered to take in terms of section 182(1)(c) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, and section 9 of the Public Protector Act, Act 23 of 1994 which can only be overturned by a court of law and which has not happened?                                                    NO2925E


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, the matter relating to the security upgrades at Nkandla is being discussed by Parliament through the ad hoc committee on the report of the Minister of Police. I have also responded to Parliament on this matter before. I submitted a report to the Speaker in August last year. I believe the question is premature, as matters have not yet been concluded by this very House. I will respond further to the debate around this matter once all processes have been concluded. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.] [Interjections.]


Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, the President is not answering my question because I am not talking about those other matters that he is talking about. Before I go there, however, I must say it is so embarrassing that your Minister attacks the judiciary, and you know nothing about it. Your Minister closed his mind to Glencore, and you know nothing about it. That becomes the response of a sitting state President, which is a huge embarrassment for this country. [Interjections.]


The Nkandla matter has been a big problem for all of us because we believe strongly that you must pay something back. So, don’t tell me about the video games of Nhleko. I do not recognise those video games. He must go and play them with his children in his house. [Laughter.] The only report which is legitimate and legal – legal! - is Adv Thuli Madonsela’s one, not these illegal activities which have been taking place here in this Parliament, like the ANC ad hoc committee on Nhleko’s report, helped by the opposition, to undermine Thuli Madonsela’s report.


My question is very simple, Mr President: When are you paying back the money? [Applause.] That is what the Public Protector said you must do - not who must do what, and all those kinds of things. You have never responded, not even in the report you wrote to Parliament. You have never given a date or the method you are going to use. You can engage any other process; it will not help you, because it comes back to one question: When are you paying back the money? [Interjections.] So, that is the question South Africans want to know, and that is the answer we are prepared to accept – not any other form of answer except the date and the method you are going to use to pay back the money. [Interjections.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I’ve answered this question. [Interjections.] [Applause.] I have.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon Shivambu, I have a list ...


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But he has not answered the question!


The SPEAKER: I have a list ...


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is the question about paying back the money. When is he going to do so?


The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I said earlier on, in this House, when the hon Steenhuisen was standing there, he might not like the answer, but an answer has been given. It’s factual.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: This is a question and answer session, by the way.


The SPEAKER: It’s factual.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is a question and answer ...


The SPEAKER: But there is an answer which you are not happy about. However, there is an answer, nonetheless. That is what I am trying to prevail upon you about.


Dr H C CHEWANE: Speaker, on a point of order ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon members.


Dr H CHEWANE: On a point of order, Speaker: I need to address you on one matter.




Dr H CHEWANE: I think there is a growing trend by yourself – all you presiding officers – that when the President answers questions ...


The SPEAKER: Hon members ...


Dr H CHEWANE: ... he answers the way he wishes and then says he has answered.


The SPEAKER: Hon members ...


Dr H CHEWANE: I think it defeats the role of this very House that you, as the Speaker, to facilitate discussions, you would support the ... {Inaudible.] When the question is asked, it is not answered satisfactorily, and you just want us to do business like that. I think it is self-defeating for the purposes of this House, and I think that you, as Speaker, have the responsibility of protecting the integrity of this House.


The SPEAKER: Hon member ...


Dr H CHEWANE: At the times questions are asked, they must be answered satisfactorily. [Interjections.] We can’t allow that to proceed any more because it means that the President must not come to Parliament. What is the purpose of the President coming to Parliament and answering in the way he wishes?


The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are screaming ...


Dr H CHEWANE: And you, as a presiding officer, support that!

The SPEAKER: You are screaming.


Dr H CHEWANE: You have a duty to all of us, not only the ANC. You have a duty to all South Africans.


The SPEAKER: You have not been given the floor.


Dr H CHEWANE: The issue of Nkandla, hon Speaker, and the profile, has risen out there. I have come here from school. My classmates said that when I go to Parliament, I must ask a question on Nkandla. We were on the ground at constituency time. The community has been saying, Go and ask the President a question on Nkandla. We can’t have a scenario where you, as Speaker, who needs to protect the functioning of Parliament, continue to undermine that function. [Interjections.] [Applause.]


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, on a point of order: We keep repeating one and the same thing. We adopted a Rule ... [Interjections.] ... that does not allow members to speak without being given permission. [Interjections.] A situation is being created in the House now, where some hon members stand up and make statements – long statements – without interjection. Hon Speaker, it is not acceptable. There is supposed to be order in the House. The Rules in this House are not meant for one side only. We beg you, hon Speaker. We can’t have some hon members standing up and grandstanding and insulting this House, without ...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, on a point of order: Mistress Ginger must not do this. [Interjections.] Why are you allowing Mistress Ginger to talk like this? It’s not going to happen! President Zuma has not responded to a simple question as to whether ...


The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am speaking, Hon Speaker! [Interjections.] I want President Zuma to respond. Mr President, when are you going to pay back the money?


The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi! You are not allowed to speak until I have recognised you!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Oh! Oh!


The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you! I had not recognised the hon Chewane! I had not recognised him ... [Interjections.] ... and hon members just take it upon themselves ...

Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon Speaker, may I be recognised?


The SPEAKER: No, hon member!


Mr M N PAULSEN: May I be recognised?


The SPEAKER: No, hon member!


Mr M N PAULSEN: Then I am going to have to ask ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon member!


Mr M N PAULSEN: When is the President going to comply with the recommendations of the Public Protector and pay back the money?


The SPEAKER: I recognise the hon Mulder. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]


Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, I am a bit concerned that we have come through this process. The EFF had the opportunity to ask their question, and it seems that we are now being put in a position where it cannot continue. I ask you to please continue with the questions for the follow-up questions in terms of the list that you have received, so that we can proceed with the proceedings. [Interjections.]


Mr M N PAULSEN: Speaker, we stood up and then you recognised the man over there. [Interjections.] This is the tendency of ignoring us!


The SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, this session is a question session for all hon members of this House to participate in.


Mr M M DLAMINI: Speaker, may I ask a question?


The SPEAKER: I now have the hon member Holomisa ...


Mr M M DLAMINI: Can I ask a question?


The SPEAKER: ... and after him, it is the hon Steenhuisen. After that, it is an hon member of the NFP.


Mr M M DLAMINI: Speaker! Speaker!


The SPEAKER: We can’t have members from one party just hogging the floor.


Mr M M DLAMINI: You won’t recognise me because ...


The SPEAKER: No, I am not prepared to.


Mr M M DLAMINI: ... the President must also respect this House.


The SPEAKER: No, hon member!


Mr M M DLAMINI: He’s got no respect for the Constitution. [Interjections.] He’s got no respect for the law of this country ...


The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have not recognised you.


Mr M M DLAMINI: All we are asking him is, When is he going to pay back the money? It’s a simple question! It’s a simple question and we are asking on the right platform, because this is a question and answer session. [Interjections.] Thank you.


The SPEAKER: The hon Holomisa has a follow-up question.


Mr M S MBATHA: Before the hon Holomisa, Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, on a point of order, please.




Mr M L W FILTANE: We can’t hear.


The SPEAKER: No. I am recognising your leader, the hon Holomisa.


Mr M L W FILTANE: Yes, I want you to recognise him, please.


The SPEAKER: Yes, that’s what I’ve done.


Mr M L W FILTANE: That’s what I’m standing here for, please.


Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa.


Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon Mbatha. Take your seat.


Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker ...

The SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha, I have not recognised you. Can you take your seat?


Mr M S MBATHA: Umbuzo ulula, ukuthi uMongameli uzokhokha nini? Akakawuphenduli lowo mbuzo. Besicela awuphendule. [The simple question is, when is the President going to pay back the money? He has not answered that question. We are requesting him to answer that.]


Mr M L W FILTANE: Speaker, our leader must speak now!


The SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker ...


Ms E N LOUW: Speaker, on a point of order ...


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Mr President ...


Ms E N LOUW: Speaker, on a point of order ...


Mr M L W FILTANE: Our leader must not be disturbed. He must speak! It’s his turn.


Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order, Speaker ... Sit down, man. You didn’t even ...


Mr M L W FILTANE: No, no, no, no, no! [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: Sit down! [Interjections.] Sit down! [Interjections.]


Mr M L W FILTANE: Hy moet praat! [He must speak!]


Ms E N LOUW: Hon Speaker, these people must ...


The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you, hon member. Please take your seat!


Ms E N LOUW: This UDM mustn’t be allowed to speak yet. They haven’t even got 6% of the vote. [Interjections.] Hon Speaker, can I please address you?


The SPEAKER: No! I don’t want you to address me, hon member. I have recognised the hon Holomisa. [Interjections.] I have recognised the hon Holomisa.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Nxamalala, ayifuni kuphela mntakwethu. [Mr President, this matter will not go away, my brother.]


Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Speaker ... [Interjections.] ... Speaker, on a point of order ...




Ms M O MOKAUSE: There is the matter of Nkandla being raised in this House ... [Interjections.] ... and the President ...


The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have not recognised you.


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Speaker, recognise me!


The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have not recognised you. I’m not recognising you because I’ve already recognised an hon member. Hon Mokause, take your seat.


Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker, may we address and assist you?


The SPEAKER: NO. That’s the answer.


Mr G A GARDEE: It’s going to be in the interest of progress ...

The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee. That’s the answer, because there is an hon member recognised by the Chair who is standing there.


Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker, it’s a point of order and we need to address you on a point of order. It arises out of the Rules of Parliament


The SPEAKER: I am saying the answer is no.


Mr G A GARDEE: The Rule allows us to raise a point of order and a point of order cannot be ...


The SPEAKER: You don’t have a limitless right to abuse the Rules of the House on the basis that you can continue going up and down disrupting us because you believe that you can tell us that it’s because of a Rule.


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, we want to assist you.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, please take your seat.


Mr P G MOTEKA: Hon Speaker.


The SPEAKER: Please hon members, the person I have recognised is hon Holomisa.


Mr P G MOTEKA: You must recognise me.


The Speaker: Hon Holomisa, please talk.


Mr B H HOLOMISA: Mr President,


Mr T E MULAUDZI: Ndi khou humbela u vha thusa, Mulangadzulo?

[Let me help you, Speaker?]


Mr T E MULAUDZI: ... on a point of privilege


Ndi khou humbela u thusa uri zwithu zwi tshimbile zwavhuḓi. Ri khou tou humbela Muphuresidennde fhedzi uri vha fhindule mbudziso ye ya vhudzisiwa u bva kale ya uri ndi lini hune vha ḓo badela tshelede ya vhathu u ya nga Mutsireledzi wa Tshitshavha? (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraph follows.)


[Please let me assist for the sake of progress. We only want the President to give us an answer as to when is he going to pay back the money as recommended by the Public Protector.]


Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Speaker, we have tolerated this for too long. [Interjections.] This is absolute nonsense. We have a right to be here. We are not going to be told by you when to speak. My leader is on the floor and he is going to speak.


Ri khou humbela zwauri ... Naa ndi nnyi? [We are asking ... Who is that?


Hayi, Notyhefu. [You go, Notyhefu!]


The SPEAKER: Hon Mulaudzi, take your seat.


Vho tendelwa u amba avho? [Is that one allowed to speak?]


Mr T E MULAUDZI: No, I wanted to help you.


The SPEAKER: I don’t want your help. Hon Mulaudzi, take your seat.


Mr M M DLAMINI: But Speaker, you must protect us from ...


... kule bhari, ingathi sikhuluma i-nonsense. [... this fool, he shouldn’t say that we’re talking nonsense.]


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Alright, alright ...


... khanimamele ngoku kancinane. [... just listen a little bit.]


Mr President, the Public Protector ...


Mr K Z MORAPELA: Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, ka hlompho, Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, re ne re kopa feela ho botsa. Ha re lwane. Ke hore feela re fumane tlhakisetso hore na Mookamedi wa naha, Ntate Zuma, o patala jwang, neng tjhelete ya setjhaba. Ke yona feela potso eo re kopang hore re e hlakisetswe ke Mookamedi wa naha, Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, ka hlompho hle. Ke nahana hore di se di tswile ditaba tsa Mosireletsi wa Setjhaba, jwale, re tlameile hore re ikobele tsona. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)


[Mr K Z MORAPELA: Hon Speaker, with all due respect, hon Speaker, we just want to ask. We are not fighting. We just want clarity from the State President, Hon Zuma, on how and when is he going to pay back the people’s money. That is the only question which we want clarified by the hon President, hon Speaker, with all due respect. I believe we have received the report from the Public Protector, thus, we must abide by it.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Morapela, I have not given you the right to speak ...


Mr A M MATLHOKO: Motsamaisakgotla ... [Speaker ...]

The SPEAKER: ...and I can now tell that the hon members of the EFF are now bent on disrupting the business of the House.


Ms N P SONTI: Hon Speaker! Hon Speaker!


Mr J S MALEMA: Order! No, no, no! I’m sitting here, don’t generalise. If that is the plan, it won’t work. I’m sitting down. Please. [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Hon member, please sit down.


Ms N P SONTI: Okay.


Ndiyacela kaloku. Ndicela kuwe ohloniphekileyo wam. Utata lo unguMongameli, engekaphenduli, akukho nto iza kulunga apha kule Ndlu. Ndandikhe ndatsho nakuqala. Kuthi xa kufika kule ndawo yaseNkandla kuvele kushukume isizwe sonke hayi i-EFF. Nina nicinga ukuba yi-EFF le ifuna le mali. Sifuna imali sisisizwe. Lo tata makaphendule, ukuze iPalamente isebenze kakuhle. Ewee!


USOMLOMO: Mam’ uSonti, khawuhlale phantsi sisi.


Nks N P SONTI: Ewee! Ndihleli kodwa ndiyayiva into le ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)


[Please! I plead with you, my hon Speaker. Without a reply from this gentleman who is the President nothing will come right in this House. I did say this before. When it comes to the Nkandla issue the whole nation, and not only the EFF, gets roused to anger. You think it is only the EFF that wants the money to be paid back. We as a nation want the money paid back. This gentleman must respond so that Parliament can function properly. Yes!


The SPEAKER: Ms Sonti, will you take your seat, ma’am?


Ms N P SONTI: Yes! I am seated, but I can understand ...]


Rre A M MATLHOKO: Mmusakgotla, a potso fela ya gore Moporesidente o tla duela madi leng, a ke yona e e ka dirang gore gonne le modumo o o kanakana? Tshenyego yona e diragetse, ebile re e bone. A Moporesidente a goge tsela e yang kwa bankeng, a duele madi a setšhaba. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Speaker, is it only that question to the President, as to when is he going to pay back the money, that’s causing such chaos? Damage has been done as we have seen it. Let the President go to the bank and pay back the nation’s money.]


Ms N V MENTE: Somlomo! Somlomo! [Speaker! Speaker!]


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Let them speak. We will not be doing anything further.


Ms N V MENTE: Speaker, I see nothing difficult about the President saying when he will pay back the money. We just want to know when is he going to pay back the money, and how.]


Nksz M S KHAWULA: Kulungile phela manje, nisabani ngoba kakade senisiqashele abantu abazosibulala - basibulalele imali yaseNkandla. Lalela, abantu bayayifuna le mali, hhayi ukuthi ifunwa yi-EFF. Futhi Mongameli, kukhona into embi oyenzayo ... [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Ms M S KHAWULA: All is well now, what are you scared of now, because you have already hired people to kill us – kill us for the Nkandla money. Listen, the people want this money, not the EFF. Another thing, Mr President, there is a bad thing that you are doing ... [Interjections.]]


USOMLOMO: Mama uKhawula, khawuhlale phantsi, ndiyakucela.


Nksz M S KHAWULA: ... ukuthi wena uzosilethela izinkabi la. Okwesibili wena sisuka nawe KwaZulu-Natali besihlushwa ngama-ZP esibulala, manje uzothatha imali yabantu baseNingizimu Afrika abahluphekayo ... [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[The SPEAKER: Ms Khawula, take your seat, please.


Ms M S KHAWULA: ... that you are going to put hit men on us here. The second is that, both of us come from KwaZulu-Natal where we were harassed by the ZP, killing us and now you are taking South African poor people’s money ... [Interjections.]]


Dr H CHEWANE: Speaker, this is wrong! This is wrong!


... uzoqasha abantu ubagqokisa izingubo ezimnyana nezimhlophe ukuthi bazosibulala ubakhokhela imali engango-R30 000 ngamunye. Ayilungile le nto oyenzayo. Ngiyakubonga! ... [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[... you are going to hire people and dress them in black and white to kill us and you pay them R30 000 each. What you are doing is not right. I am done with you! [Interjections.]]


The SPEAKER: Hon members ...


Nksz M S KHAWULA: ... futhi yihlazo lelo olenzayo, uzosibulala la eNingizimu Afrika. Likuphi kanti ilungelo lokukhuluma ngokukhululeka lana? Kukuphi ukubusa ngentandoyeningi? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Ms M S KHAWULA: ... and what you are doing is a disgrace, you will kill us here in South Africa. Where is the freedom of speech here? Where is the democracy?]


The SPEAKER: Hon members, it’s obvious that the hon member whether their leader is sitting or not sitting is bent on disrupting the progress. [Interjections.] You are! Because right now you are saying unless we recognise and allow only you to speak, we can’t proceed with the rest of the people on the list who must be recognised as part of this question session. [Interjections.] I recognise hon Holomisa.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker.

Dr B H HOLOMISA: Lawulekani, makwedini. Lawulekani. [Discipline, boys, discipline!]


The SPEAKER: I’ve recognised the hon Holomisa.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, we wanted to allow hon Holomisa to ask the follow up question. You are recognised.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Enkosi. Niyalawuleka, bafana bam. [Thank you. You are disciplined, my boys.]


Ms L D ZULU: On a point of order, Chair. Point of order!


The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, that’s out of order.


Ms L D ZULU: Yes, that’s out of order.


The SPEAKER: You are not the one deciding when and who is recognised.


Gqr B H HOLOMISA: Kulungile, Mama. Nxamalala, phakama, mhlekazi, sincokole. [Kwahlekwa.]


UMONGAMELI WERIPHABLIKI: Ndiyaphakama. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)


[Dr B H HOLOMISA: Alright, Ma’am. Mr President, stand up, sir, so that we can have a chat. [Laughter.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am standing up.]


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Mr President, the Public Protector investigated your private property, made findings and took appropriate remedial actions against you, not the Cabinet or this Parliament. Don’t you consider saving this House and the nation by simply applying for a judicial review, given that you have challenged the findings by the Public Protector and this House cannot act as an appeal authority on a matter that does not belong here?


Masiyise ngaphandle, Mhlekazi. Masilandele uMama uPantsy Tlakula, naye owathi kwakufunyaniswa ukuba kukho okungalunganga wacela umngeni ngaphandle. Masiyise ngaphandle ukuze siqhubeke nomsebenzi. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)


[Let us seek outside help, Sir. Let us follow the example set by Ms Pantsy Tlakula who, when it became clear that things were not going right, asked for outside help. Let us consult outside this institution so that we can continue with our duties. Thank you.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Public Protector reports to Parliament and she has done so. She has made recommendations because one of the mistakes, I think, some members are making, is to believe that she made a judgement. It is not a judgement, but a recommendation that Parliament must deal with. [Interjections.] Parliament is seized with the issue.


Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: And if it going to beg the conclusion and it will take a decision on the basis of the discussion that would have gone on at this Parliament.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, please don’t interrupt in the middle of a statement.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: So that is my answer to you, hon Holomisa.


Mr G A GARDEE: But the President is misleading the nation.

The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee. You are wrong. Please take your seat.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr G A GARDEE: Can I be recognised, Madam Speaker, on a point of order.


The SPEAKER: No! You must allow yourself not to be recognised at times. It’s fine.


Mr G A GARDEE: It’s a point of order, Madam Speaker.


The SPEAKER: I now recognise hon Steenhuisen.


Mr G A GARDEE: We request to be recognised to assist the country and the House on the misleading statement by the President. Can we be allowed to continue with that process?


The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please, you are on the floor.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]


HON MEMBER: Hayi, suka wena! [Uhleko.] [Away with you.] [Laughter.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, hon Speaker! ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please allow hon Steenhuisen to speak. [Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But hon Speaker, can you allow ... [Interjections.] ... can you please ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, the answer is no! When I am not allowing you, I am not allowing you. [Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But the point of order is the procedure of this House.


The SPEAKER: Allow other hon members to also speak! Do not hoard the space! [Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But a point of order is allowed in this House! Where do you get the authority to decide ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: No! Because your points of order are actually not points of order! [Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You do not know what ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: I am telling you. Hon Steenhuisen! [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: Speaker, but what you are doing is unfair. [Interjections.] We have rights as Members of Parliament to rise on a point of order. Rule 70 allows us. [Interjections.]




Nk H O MAXON: Heyi, angikhulumi nawe wena! [Hey, I am not talking to you!]


Ms H O MAXON: Just shut up, wena. [you] Nx! [Interjections.] Madam Speaker, can you treat us fairly here! [Interjections.] Can you please be the Speaker of this House!


The SPEAKER: You must also behave in the manner that allows the House to proceed in an orderly fashion. [Interjections.]

Ms H O MAXON: We do want to do that under Rule 70.


The SPEAKER: No! No, hon member. [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: And Rule 70 allows us, Madam Speaker, but you are just ill-treating us! You are treating us as if we are stepchildren in this House! Madam Speaker, we have been voted to be here! [Interjections.]


Mr J S MALEMA: Madam Speaker, Madam Speaker, you called us to order earlier on, we sat down and listened to the question asked by the hon Holomisa. In the process of the President answering, there was a point of order. It is only fair that we follow the rules. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: No, hon Malema. [Interjections.]


Mr J S MALEMA: Do not pre-empt us hon Speaker, please! Please allow hon Gardee to raise a point of order and then make a ruling about it. [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Malema! [Interjections.]


Mr S J MALEMA: Unfortunately, Speaker, it is supposed to be like that. It does not matter how much we irritate you. Do not be irritated to a point where you forget the rules! [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, I recognised you and allowed you to speak because you are a leader of a political party! [Interjections.]


Mr J S MALEMA: But we are a necessary irritation. Please allow us to speak to you. Let us allow order! [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Can I ask you to please help and be leader-like! [Interjections.]


Mr J S MALEMA: Absolutely. I have no problem. That is why I am leading. Allow hon Gardee to raise a point of order!


The SPEAKER: I have seen the two hands, that of hon Singh and hon Mulder, but I would like to allow the hon Steenhuisen to proceed.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, it is amazing when the DA first raised the issue of Nkandla and we were fighting this very hard, there were other members of this House who were running around and said they were going to take up arms and kill for Zuma, now they want to send the bill to Zuma. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: And you have passed a rule for people to come here and kill us! You passed the rule! You passed the rule that people must come here and kill us! [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: Order! [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Do not be a racist, hon Steenhuisen! Do not be a racist! Be transformed! This is a new day! You are the one that passed the rule for people to come and beat people up here! You are worse because you are in Parliament and you passed the rule in Parliament. You enjoy the beating of black people I think! [Applause.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: We do not support the use of violence in any matter. But let me we say, with reference to the Western Cape High Court judgment where Justice Scheepers said, and I quote:


It seems so that before rejecting the findings or remedial action of the Public Protector, the relevant organ of state must have cogent reasons for doing so. That is for reasons other than merely a preference for its own view.


Mr President, can you explain on what basis in law have the recommendations of the Public Protector, made in her report Secure in Comfort with respect to Nkandla – and I said it right – [Laughter.] been substituted by those of the Minister of Police who was appointed by you, reports to you and owes his political existence to you? [Applause.]


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as I understand, the Public Protector brought the report to Parliament and the Parliament engaged ... [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker!


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... in the process of doing its own work. [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: If only Madam Speaker, you would listen to this point of order, you will be able to deal with the misleading statement of the President. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: And then in the process of that we have moved ... [Inaudible.] There were recommendations that said, the Minister should ... Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: Give us that opportunity!


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, will you allow the person who is on the floor to speak and finish!


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... do what is asked by the report of the Public Protector, that the Minister of Police will make a determination. [Interjections.] And this is what the Minister of Police has done. Your Parliament is at the moment discussing the issue after the site visit to Nkandla. The process is still on and therefore I do not see the reason why should I come to the point where I am to determine why this or that must be done. You have a process as this House which is not yet concluded. You are doing what you were supposed to do with the report that was brought to you. It was not just brought to you to look at it, but there were recommendations in terms of which you were supposed to say what then should happen. And the process has moved forward. I am saying the process has not been completed. Why then should we think we must have a final word? I do not see any logic in doing that, absolutely. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder! [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, we have requested to be recognised. [Interjections.]


Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you. [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: There is a point of order.


The SPEAKER: You say you have requested, so can you just take a seat. [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: But can you deal with a point of order, because ... [Interjections.]


Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: ... the President is selectively, misleading this House, Madam Speaker! [Interjections.]


The SPEAKER: I have recognised the hon Mulder and I would like you to take a seat.


Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I have asked to be recognised and I am recognised. I think we have a problem hon Speaker and we all know that this is a rather serious matter. The problem is this that the President, in his original reply to the question by hon Malema as well as to the subsequent questions being asked, in all respect replied by saying that Parliament is busy with its own process and the process is not finalised. That is the essence of the President’s responds.


But Madam Speaker, the problem is that the question asked was allowed by the Question’s Office to be put on the Order Paper for today. And I think that the Questions Office liaise with the Presidency when questions are sorted out. Now the problem is, if the question was not to be handled today because the process has not been finalised, then it should not be on the Order Paper for today’s business. So, the problem we have now is that the question was accepted as a valid question and it is on the Order Paper to be dealt with, but we do not get the answers because the President is of the view that Parliament’s processes have not been completed. And that creates a problem to the frustration of all.


The SPEAKER: Thank you hon Mulder, I want to recognise the last supplementary question and that is from the NFP.


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, we have requested to address you on a point of order on the matter of the President’s reply. Are you refusing, Madam Speaker?


The SPEAKER: I am not recognising you for now putting yourself ahead of the people I have in my list that I want to recognise. Hon member, from the NFP? [Interjections.]


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Order Madam Speaker, I just want to prevent a very serious situation here. [Interjections.]


Mr K Z MORAPELA: Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! It will not happen like that!


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, hon Speaker.


Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: The President ... [Interjections.]


Mr K Z MORAPELA: No, no, no, no!


The SPEAKER: Can I first allow the NFP to proceed ... [Interjections.] No, there are other points of order there in the EFF.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: If we continue, we are in danger, hon Speaker.


The SPEAKER: Can I ask you to allow the NFP to speak? Then I will come back to you.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Okay, if you come back to me, that is fine.


The SPEAKER: The NFP, not hon Singh. I know your hand has been up, I’ve seen it. Hon Singh, I’ve seen your hand and I will come back and recognise you.


Mr N SINGH: Thank you.


The SPEAKER: Hon Msibi’s representative.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Speaker, Mr President, what is not in dispute is that the money spent on an Nkandla upgrade is far in excess of the value of the project. Mr President, I think you can see here today from the state of this honourable House, as a result of Nkandla; in fact, it appears that there are only two issues that dominate this House - that is Marikana and Nkandla. If that goes away, Mr President, it would appear that some members will have nothing to debate about. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Mr President, what can you do ... [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Madam Speaker. He’s not going to talk, this one.


The SPEAKER: Allow ... [Interjections.]


Mr G A GARDEE: This one is not going to talk.


The SPEAKER: No, hon Gardee.


Mr G A GARDEE: This one is not going to talk. He’s not ... then let’s call police. This one is not going to talk.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, you are not going to decide who’s going to talk. Please proceed and finish, hon member.


Ms M S KHAWULA: Somlomo, bakhuze asifuni basisukele. Uyadelela lo. Usuyadelela manje. [Ubuwelewele.] [Speaker, call them to order because we do not want them to provoke us. This one is a delinquent. You are being mischievous now. [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, we know that this man is looking for a position. We know very well. Therefore, he must not start with us.


The SPEAKER: Please finish your question.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Mr President, I won’t go to the EFF because they don’t have anything to offer. [Interjections.] Mr President, what can you do, as the Head of a State, to accelerate this process and bring this matter to a close, so that those who had unduly benefited ... [Interjections.] What can you do, Mr President to facilitate and accelerate this process? I am aware that there are processes in place for this matter to be brought to a speedy conclusion so that anyone who had unduly benefited will immediately be able to pay back the money. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, unfortunately I don’t have the authority to interfere with this issue. As far as I know, there’s a parliamentary process that is ongoing. There’s a process arising from the investigation regarding people who are being charged. I’m sure during these cases it will come to light if there were people who “ate” money and who they are. There are processes that I cannot interfere with, even as the President, I can’t interfere with the investigation or court or parliamentary proceedings.


If I say anything before these processes are over, I would be interfering and that would be wrong. These processes are as a result of an investigation and I think we should allow these processes to reach their conclusions. Then we’ll react to the final conclusions or outcomes. That is the reason why I can’t interfere. Thank you, Madam Speaker.


The SPEAKER: Before I recognise you, hon Maimane, can I take hon Singh?


Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I trust that you are giving me the opportunity to ask a question.



Mr N SINGH: Alight, then I must rise on a point of order, but I don’t know if it is relevant at this stage of the game, because all the questions have been asked. But, in any case, I want to put on record that some hon members are very rich in their demeanour here to talk about respecting the Rules of this House.


Rule 49 says “precedence of presiding officer” ... “whenever the presiding officer rises during a debate”, which means when you speak, Madam Speaker, “any member then speaking or offering to speak shall resume his or her seat and the presiding officer shall be heard without interruption”. That did not happen in this House today. And it’s sad that that did not happen, because members of this House do not respect the very Rules that we’ve drawn up for ourselves. That’s the point that I wanted to make, hon Speaker. [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Singh. Hon Maimane.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, on a point that the President made, which was to say that the process of Parliament is being done. [Interjections.] The issue is that in the Public Protector’s report, it says, “yes, the President must take assistance with the National Treasury and the SAPS to determine a reasonable amount”. The second point to that says “pay back a reasonable percentage of the costs, as determined with the assistance of the National Treasury”. The question on the Order Paper speaks on the second step, whether the President is prepared to make a payment of a percentage of the costs, not the first, which ... [Inaudible.] ... the ad hoc committee ... [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, on a point of order.


Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, he’s not going to talk. I have raised a point of order before.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I don’t net permission from you, Gardee, to speak.


The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, you keep making these instructions.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Gardee, I don’t need permission from you to speak. The point of order, hon Speaker, we have always been disciplined and patient. We have come to a point where there are no further supplementary questions. Why can’t we stop this process and this abuse, please?


The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party.


Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker ...


The SPEAKER: No, hon member.


Mr J S MALEMA: I will be very brief.


The SPEAKER: I’m being very generous to hon members here.


Mr J S MALEMA: Yes, thank you. Today you’ve been so nice, you know. You didn’t call those people outside in here. [Laughter.] This is the type of the leadership we want. It’s very clear that we will never get an answer, Mr President. Let’s meet in court. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


The SPEAKER: Hon members, the hon President has responded to all questions on the Order Paper. Therefore, the question session is over. [Applause.]




Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 16:44.







National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.      Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159


  1. Unemployment Insurance Amendment Bill, submitted by the Minister of Labour.


Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour and the Select Committee on Economic and Business Development.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


1.      The Minister of Justice and Correctional Service


  1. Report dated 5 August 2015 on the provisional suspension from office of Mr L Zantsi, an aspirant magistrate at Laingsburg, tabled in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).


2.      The Minister of Trade and Industry


  1. Government Notice No 646, published in Government Gazette, No 39028, dated 27 July 2015: Invitation for the public to comment on the Copyright Amendment Bill, 2015.



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