Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 26 Aug 2015

Summary

No summary available.

---

Minutes

WEDNESDAY, 26 AUGUST 2015

____

 

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

____

 

The House met at 15:01.

 

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see 000.

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

 

GOVERNANCE

Cluster 3

 

Particulars regarding implementation of Government Employees Housing Scheme

 

370.        Ms H Maxon (EFF) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration:

 

In light of the fact that 70% of government employees who currently receive R1 200 housing allowances do not own homes, a further significant number of government employees find it extremely difficult to access loans in order to purchase houses without additional assistance and the Government Employees Housing Scheme (GEHS), in terms of clauses 4,2 of the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, Resolution 4 of 2010, 3,3 of the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, Resolution 2 of 2011 and 19 of the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, Resolution 1 of 2012, has not come into effect despite clear evidence of challenges that government employees are faced with, (a) when is the GEHS going to come into effect and (b) what has caused the delay of almost five years?                                                                             NO3534E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, in response to hon Maxon’s question, the Government Employees Housing Scheme came into effect on 1 July 2015 and it emanates from negotiations at the bargaining council that were completed in May 2015.

 

The answer to the follow-up question is that there has not been a delay of five years. What has transpired is that, between 2010 and 2014 before the negotiations began, the resolution said we should develop a model to establish a Government Employees Housing Scheme. In that process we had to do research and comparative analysis, look at funding models, start consultation with the people that are in the industry, for instance the Department of Housing and Human Settlements and other departments including the Treasury, to make sure that what we develop has got the buy-in of all the concerned stakeholders. We then decided that we should meet so that both the unions and ourselves can present what we have developed.

 

Since the signing of agreements, together with labour, we have jointly held road shows in all provinces to explain the scheme in detail. All provinces have been covered through these road shows and in addition to that, about a month ago, we submitted a Cabinet memo that spells out processes and what is yet to be done.

 

The implementation and partnership protocols have also been concluded with the following entities to support the delivery of the scheme. That is the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, the SA Post Office, the Postbank, Ithala Limited, Recema Limited, and the Rural Housing Loan Fund including the Department of Housing and Human Settlements and the Treasury. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Deputy Speaker, as the EFF, we are disappointed that we have to get answers from a Deputy Minister who does not sit in the Cabinet, and the fact that the Acting Minister is not here disappoints us even more. The position that we are dealing with here has been vacant for the past five months.

 

However, we will proceed to put the follow-up question. Why is government not using accumulated reserves and the cash that is idling in the Government Employees Pension Fund to help government employees who have accumulated enough pensions to use some of the money to pay off their home loans?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, I did omit to mention that we were informed that the Deputy Minister would be taking questions on behalf of the Minister, and that is why she is doing so. Hon Deputy Minister?

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Minister, as you have said, the Minister has requested me to respond to these questions. I have been part of the department for quite some time. I sit in the committee that deals with issues relating to the regulation of the relationship between the bargaining council, labour and the employer.

 

The reason why we are talking to the public and we have signed and concluded protocols of partnership between us and the PIC, is specifically to draw into the funds that are available from the pension fund and this is the vehicle that we have chosen to use because it taps into those funds. I think there was a second question that I have missed. But your first question was related to the pension fund and if I could be reminded what the other question was.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon Deputy Minister, we normally prefer that a supplementary question should only be one. We will now give the chance to the hon Hlengwa to do the honourable thing.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, through you to the Deputy Minister, as you have indicated now that the scheme has now been implemented just probably over a month and half ago, so we want to find out how are the monitoring mechanisms that you have put in place going to assess whether the implementation is happening as you would want it to, so that you do not arrive at a situation whereby when you are midstream, maybe after a very long time, there are problems. Because I do not think that we can deny the fact that there has been a five-year delay, but one can only say, amen to the fact that it is now implemented. So, what monitoring mechanisms are in place, what feedback are you receiving and what challenges are there so that you can be able to give this scheme the assistance that it needs? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker to the hon member, monitoring will be done in different ways. One of which would be to review what comes through from the protocols that we have signed with our partners to determine whether or not people have been able to access the funds that are being put forth through the subsidies, but also through the protocols that we have put in place - the PIC, the Postbank and other funding agencies. So we will be able to monitor through that process.

 

It is not true to say there has been a five year delay. Hon Member, if you would remember, I have said that between 2010 and 2014 we were in the process of developing the model itself and there were a lot of analysis, the desks of research, comparative analysis and also consultation between labour and government. At the end of 2014, both parties came together to present before each other what they have come up with. Hence we now have a resolution that says, it will come into effect on 1 July. So, it has already come into effect. But, rightly saying, there has not been any delay of five years in this regard.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Booi. Hon Booi.

 

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, you see ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Because ... okay.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... we agreed that you press the “to talk button” where you are sitting. Hon Booi is not here.

 

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, there is no mic where I sit. I sit there. [Interjections.] I sit where there is no mic, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: How come?

 

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: There is no mic where I sit. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: How come? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, I am afraid your name is not on the list. Hon Van der Westhuizen?

 

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Hon Deputy Minister, investment in capital through home ownership as well as partially settled bonds provide the middle class greater financial freedom. This allows them to, amongst other things, access cheap loans, invest in the education of their children and to better participate in the economy. Your government has, however, failed to increase homeownership among civil servants which is unsurprising given that the support given to public servants to service bond repayments has not kept up with rising urban property prices. My question is, what will your government do to address this failure? I thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon member, the process that we are talking about is expressly designed to look into matters of home ownership of civil servants and we are looking at the 70% that does not own houses but do get subsidies largely. But there are those at even a higher level that do not own houses and we are trying. The process in itself, including the road show that we are embarking upon between labour and the employer, are designed expressly with the issue of home ownership. I do agree with you that if you own a home it puts you in a good stead to access capital from the private sector in the form of banks, but it also puts you in a good stead as rising within the Leaving Standards Measure, LSM, in terms of who you stand as an individual. This process in itself was expressly designed to take that into account and to help people to get ownership of homes. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mchunu. Hon S Mchunu. [Interjections.] Hon Shivambu.

 

Steps to assist with installation of bulk water pipeline and to ensure long-term provision of water

 

353.        Mr A M Mudau (ANC) asked the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

 

In view of the conflict between the SA National Roads Agency (SANRAL) and the Mamusa Local Municipality regarding the installation of a bulk water pipeline between Bloemhof and Schweizer-reneke, (a) how can his department assist the specified municipality to install a bulk water pipeline next to the road between the specified two areas, which is a cheaper alternative than installing water pipes through land occupied by farmers and (b) what steps will he take to ensure the long-term provision of water in the areas of the (i) Taung Local Municipality, (ii) Naledi Local Municipality and (iii) Lekwa Teemane Local Municipality?                                                                                      NO3515E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, we have completed an investigation into this matter and found the following. The project referred to is an approved Department of Water and Sanitation regional bulk infrastructure grant project, which will ensure sustainable bulk water supply to the greater Mamusa Local Municipality area.

 

Originally, the provincial department of transport had given approval on 15 November 2012 that a new bulk pipeline be constructed inside the road reserve between Bloemhof and Schweizer-Reineke. The department had indicated that the work must be completed within 12 months and that if, for any reason, the work was delayed for a longer period, extension of time should be requested, in writing, or a new application would have to be submitted.

 

However, this road was subsequently transferred from the provincial department of transport to the SA National Roads Agency Ltd, Sanral. A letter was then sent to Sanral to enquire if the approval given by the provincial department of transport was still valid; Sanral responded negatively, and informed the district municipality that it wouldn’t allow services inside the road reserve.

The district municipality is now starting to negotiate with all private owners of land outside the road reserves for servitudes. The Department of Co-operative Governance has assigned one of its engineers to facilitate further discussions between the Department of Water and Sanitation, Sanral and the municipality to find a solution to this issue. We have asked for a progress report by 4 September.

 

The North West provincial government has signed a memorandum of understanding, MOU, with the Department of Water and Sanitation to prioritise the most water depressed and challenged municipalities in terms of the provision of technical expertise, project management and implementation capacity, and mobilisation of resources. These municipalities are also prioritised and supported by the Back to Basics programme in the national and provincial departments of co-operative development and traditional affairs and relevant sector departments. Thank you.

 

Mr A M MUDAU: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for his answer. My follow-up question is: Can you please make an arrangement between Sanral and the affected municipalities, in future, to speed up the water bulk supply projects in other municipalities? What Sanral is doing now is to hamper the implementation of water projects. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, most certainly. We will engage and have, in fact, engaged with the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa, to clarify with Sanral what exactly their policy is on the use of reserve road areas for the provision of basic services. We are told that there is not an absolute prohibition against the use of those areas, but in this case, permission was denied. So, we will pursue that matter with Sanral.

 

I think I must also just say that, in terms of that area, there are other steps that are also being taken to ensure long-term provision of water in those areas. Firstly, in the area of the Greater Taung Local Municipality, for example, the approved regional bulk infrastructure grant, RBig, projects currently under construction will address most of the bulk water needs there. In addition, feasibility studies have been conducted by the Department of Water and Sanitation for the augmentation of the bulk water supply to nine villages in the Greater Taung Local Municipality area from the Spitskop Dam.

Secondly, regarding the Naledi Local Municipality, the bulk upgrading that has been completed in the area will ensure sustainable water supply to the municipality. However, the district municipality is waiting for Eskom to upgrade their bulk electricity supply to ensure a sustainable supply of electricity to the newly completed water treatment works. Eskom is experiencing problems in obtaining wayleave approval from Sanral to start with their upgrading. Again, the Department of Co-operative Governance has assigned one of its engineers to facilitate a solution to this problem between Eskom and Sanral.

 

Thirdly, in the Lekwa-Teemane Local Municipality, the approved RBig projects currently under construction at Bloemhof will ensure sustainable bulk water supply in Bloemhof. There is also a need for the upgrading of storage facilities in Bloemhof and of the water treatment works in Christiana to ensure sustainable bulk water supply. [Time expired.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before I move to the next supplementary question, I would like to request members to join me in welcoming pupils and their teachers from the Mida Primary School in Idutywa. Welcome! [Applause.]

Dok H CHEWANE: Xandla xa Xipikara, lembe leri nga hundza Presidente wa tiko loko a ri karhi a hlamula swivutiso swa Mbulavulo wa Presidente na Rixaka u tshembisile vaakitiko va Giyani leswaku va ta va va ri na mati eka lembe leri nga hundza.

 

Sweswi hi nga ku vulavuleni vanhu va Giyani a va na mati. Xana mfumo wa ANC a wu rhukani vaakitiko loko wu ri karhi wu tshembisa ku endla vukorhokeri, kambe swi nga hetiseki ke? Lexi i xivutiso xo landzelerisa lexi humaka eka EFF. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

 

[Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, when the President of the country responded to the state of the nation address questions last year, he promised the residents of Giyani that they will have water.

 

At this point in time the residents of Giyani do not have water. Is the ANC-led government not insulting the public when it promises to delivery services, but not fulfil it? This is a follow-up question from the EFF.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, clearly, that is not a follow-up question to this question. The hon member is asking about Giyani. This question revolves around North West. Nonetheless, I will give the assurance that the Department of Water and Sanitation, together with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, in terms of the back-to-basics approach, is very hard at work in Limpopo to address those water problems. Thank you.

 

Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, the water situation in Schweizer-Reineke is dire. The Wentzel Dam is empty and five of the 16 boreholes supplying the area are dry. Yet, the pipeline in question, which is supposed to bring water to Schweizer-Reineke’s 100 000 residents, cannot be built because the district municipality does not have the required R93 million in matching funding. In addition, the Department of Water and Sanitation can only help in 2018-19.

 

So, my question is this: Where will the district source the R93 million required to start the construction of the pipeline; and who is responsible for the funding of the construction of the seven megalitre reservoir required in Schweizer-Reineke, which has not been planned for or budgeted for?

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, hon Mileham, as we indicated, the Departments of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Water Affairs and Sanitation are working together with those municipalities. We have indicated that monies have been budgeted for those projects and that we will implement those projects. We are aware of the dire situation there. We are working with the Department of Water and Sanitation and the municipality to address those matters. Thank you.

 

An HON MEMBER: That’s not an answer!

 

An HON MEMBER: Answer the question!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we now move to Question 365. No.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, a total of 34 deaths was reported ...

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what are you responding to?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, the Table staff is reminding you that my name is on the list for a follow-up question. The number of follow-up questions which were supposed to be asked on this question has not been exceeded. So, please say “hon Shivambu” ... [Interjections.] ... in order that I may ask a follow-up question. It is there, in your system.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh! I should say “hon Shivambu”? [Interjections.] Alright!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] The follow-up question asked here was not in relation to Giyani. It was background information which provided that ...

 

... lembe leri nga hundza Presidente u tshembise vanhu va Giyani mati. U vule leswaku eGiyani ku ta va ku ri na mati hi Nhlangula lembe leri nga hundza. Na sweswi ku hava mati. Ku na swivutiso swin’wana laha ka xivutiso lexi swa leswaku xana Ndzawulo ya Swa Mafumele ya Vutirhisani na Timhaka ta Ndhavuko yi ta yisa rini mati eka timasipala leti nga longoloxiwa laha, ku nga ta Taung, Naledi na Lekwa Teemane.

 

Mikarhi hinkwayo ku na switshembiso swa leswaku ku ta va na mati, naswona ya hela ya fika. Ku ta va ku ri mali muni ku endla leswaku mati ya fika eka timasipala leti nga kombisiwa eka xivutiso lexi hi nga xi vutisa hina va EFF? Hi mikarhi hinkwayo ku na switshembiso, kambe a swi hetisisiwi hi munhu laha ka mfumo. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

 

[... the President promised the residents of Giyani water last year. He said that there will be water at Giyani in October last year. To date there is no water. There are inherent questions in this question as to when will the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional affairs supply water to the municipalities that are listed below, namely Taung, Naledi and Lekwa Teemane.

 

There are promises that there will be water at all times, but to no avail. How much is available to ensure that water reaches the municipalities which have been indicated in the question that we the EFF has asked. There are promises at all times, but no one fulfils them in this government of the day.]

 

The question is specific to this ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time has expired. Hon member, take your seat.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... municipality, so we need a concrete answer ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... in that regard.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: No, hon Deputy Speaker, there is no difference to the question that the Hon Shivambu has just asked to the previous one. The answer still stands. This is a different question. It is not a follow-up question. We are very concerned about the situation. We will ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member is answering, take your seat. Take your seat.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: We will gadly provide a written answer to the hon Shivambu. [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: The Deputy Minister is not answering questions. This is clear that the Deputy Minister also came to this House not prepared, just like all the Cabinet Minister and other Deputy Ministers. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: We cannot allow this kind of a situation. We can’t, Deputy Speaker. Let the Deputy Minister answer the question that hon Shivambu has just asked.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Take your seat. Thank you very much.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Deputy Chief Whip.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We cannot allow a situation whereby a Member of this House will cast aspersion that Ministers are not responding to questions. The Ministers cannot respond to questions in the way that Members of this House want to hear it, but they are here to respond to questions. Thank you.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order? [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am still saying, and we have said in the previous sittings, that we are being taken for granted as Members of this House. We come here expecting Ministers and Deputy Ministers to respond to questions posted to them, but they come here and just beat around the bush. We can’t allow such a situation. We can’t. They are supposed to have information at the tip of their fingers. We can’t!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we pointed out in the past that a supplementary question must consist of only one question which should relate to the original question or arise from the Minister’s reply. It should not be a new question. Rule 1136 allows a member who asks a supplementary question to make a statement or express an opinion but a member should not make a speech. But the point we are making also about this matter, hon members, is that we, from the chair, can’t dictate to Minister on how to answer the questions. If Ministers indicate that they have already answered, we can’t push them to go beyond the answers that they have already given. Hon Shivambu!

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, this session is called a session for oral replies. The question that we have asked the Deputy Minister – who was not supposed to be answering because he is not even in the Cabinet – is directly related to the main question. And he says that we must write that question to him. We have written question for written replies, but for now we are looking for an oral reply. And the question is simple. How long is it going to take you to finish the water projects in Dr Segomotsi Mompati Municipality, in the Northwest, and how much is that going to cost? What is it which is difficult about answering that question?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We don’t want a Cabinet that is not clear about its business – not even Cabinet, the executive secretary called deputy secretary.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, my advice is to members is that you have to live with the reality that, Ministers and Deputy Ministers will answer questions in the House. So, let’s live with that. Members, let’s go to the next question. I have been informed that the next question is asked by hon Khubisa to the Minister of Co-operative Governance ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order: The Deputy Minister must answer the question posted by hon Shivambu. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: He is ready to answer. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: He is ready to answer. Deputy Speaker, let the Deputy Minister respond.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you can’t make rulings from the floor. I have made a ruling and I am proceeding. Hon Deputy Minister and hon Chief Whip, please take your seats.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy on a point of order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Hlengwa?

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I back for your indulgence, Sir! Can I proceed?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, be orderly for a little while. Can’t you notice that I am busy consulting here? Do you want to throw stones into my mouth? Take it easy, you will get the attention that you need.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Please, sir.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You now have that attention.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I hope I am noted.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Must I speak, Deputy Speaker?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Just as you say we must not ...

 

... re se ke ra tlisa melao e metjha hodima melao e metjha, ke kopa hore o ke o hlokomedise Motlatsa Letona hore nako ena ke ya ho botsa dipotso, mme re lebelletse dikarabo tsa dipotso tse botswang ka molomo. A se ke a tla ka molao wa hae o motjha o reng ...  mmamele ntate!

 

Potso ena ya rona - hobane ha a na karabo ya yona - a se ke a re rona re tle re e ngole fatshe jwalokaha e ka ha re a e ngola. Ka hoo, re kopa hore o hle o bue le yena, a ntshe dikonokono ka ditsebeng, a arabe potso ena: Batho ba dibaka tsena tse hlwauweng, ba tla fumana metsi neng na? Ha a ke a arabe potso eo! [Kena hanong.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

 

[... bring new rules on top of new rules, may you please make the Deputy Minister aware that this is the time for asking questions, thus we are expecting answers to oral questions. He shouldn’t come here with his new rule which states... – listen to me, hon member!

 

This question of ours - because he doesn’t have an answer for it – he shouldn’t ask us to write it down as if we haven’t written it down. Therefore, we ask that you please talk to him, he must open up his ears, and answer this question: When will people from these identified areas receive water? May he please answer that question? [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Eh ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... on a point of order. On a point of order, hon Deputy Speaker!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we give ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, please! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Chief Whip ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: That is a new question ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The question that hon Shivambu is asking is not related to the original question appearing on the Order Paper. So, we cannot allow a situation like that. It’s a new question altogether.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Hon Minister?

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, I don’t know how many times we have to keep on repeating one and the same thing in terms of the rules that must be respected by everyone in the House. The fact of the matter is that some members stand up and speak the way they want before you even give them an opportunity to do so. I think all of us in this House have got the right to follow the rules as they are. I am also saying, it cannot happen in this House that only the other side is given the opportunity to speak and to do so anyhow. Last time we raised Rule 70 and I thought that was going to be followed to the latter.

 

Secondly, the hon member has got no right to insult the Deputy Minister who was speaking. I would like you to listen to what he said about the Deputy Minister and give a ruling on that. Nobody has got the right to say to any member that they have got “things” in their ears. I don’t think that is parliamentary. And the sooner we have order in this House the better, because we don’t have to break the rules. We make our inputs we don’t break the rules. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Honourable Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... member at the back there. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Somlomo, ngeke ukwazi ukuvumela uNgqongqoshe phela ... [Ubuwelewele.] [Speaker, you can’t allow the Minister ... [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Lalela. Awuhlalephansi. [Listen. Take your seat.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Cha. Ngicela ungilalele ... [Ubuwelwele.] [No. Please listen to me ... [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no, I won’t listen to you. I have pointed someone else. I am not ready for you.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Loyo uzolandela ... [Ubuwelewele.] [That one will follow ... [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, sit down please!

 

Mr M M Dlamini: Ngicela ungilalele kuqala. [Please listen to me first.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat. I am not going to listen to you. Take your seat.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: ... ezosikhuza kube kunguwe ozokwethula inkulumo [... will reprimand us whereas you are the one who is going to speak.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Awuhlale phansi ngiyakucela. [Please take your seat.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: No, sit down!

Mr M M DLAMINI: KuNgqongqoshe sifuna ukwazi isikhathi nosuku loku ... [Ubuwelewele.] [Minister, we would like to know the time and the date ... [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Just take your seat, hon member.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Okay.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: You are out of order! Speak, hon member!

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to bring to your attention that the next question in Question 365 by the hon Hlengwa and not hon Khubisa. And I would ask you to allow the Question Time to go ahead. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to proceed as indicated. I don’t think we must continue to run around with this matter anymore. Hon Shivambu, respectfully, I want to proceed, Sir.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, it’s factually incorrect to say that the question we asked as a follow-up question is not related ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, we are not debating that, we would like to proceed.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It’s not a debate, is just a simple thing. The question we are asking is ...

 

... mati ma ta fika rini eka timasipala leti ti nga boxiwa laha, ku nga masipala wa Naledi na wa Taung? Xivutiso xo sungula lexi nga vutisiwa laha a xi vulavula hi timhaka ta mati leswaku xana ku ta twananiwa rini na Sanral leswaku mati ma fikisiwa eka tindhawu leti boxiweke. Loko hi ringeta ku landzelerisa hi tlhela hi vutisa eka xivutiso lexi a xi vutisiwile ... (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)

 

[... when will water reach the municipalities that I have mentioned, namely Naledi and Taung municipalities? The first question that was asked here talked to the issue of water as to when will the agreement be reached with Sanral to ensure that water reaches the places that have been mentioned. When we try to make follow-ups, we are asked the question that was previously asked ...]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Why must we now go and write down the question.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, in any language, you still out of order. Take your seat I want to proceed.

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, but we are asking a question and we want an answer. We want an oral reply to the question that we have asked.

 

Measures to curb death of initiates during circumcision-orientated initiation

 

365.        Mr M Hlengwa (IFP) asked the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

 

With reference to the circumcision-orientated initiation, (a) how many initiates died during the winter initiation period that started in June in 2015, (b) which stakeholders is he working with in this regard and (c) what measures does he intend to put in place to curb the death of initiates during the 2015 summer initiation period?                                                    NO3529E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Deputy Speaker, a total number of 34 deaths was recorded in the 2015 initiation season. The Ministry conveys its condolences to the families of the initiates who passed on and reiterates that, one death is one too many. We maintain the stance of zero tolerance towards any abuse of the initiation practice and deaths of the initiates.

 

The department is working closely with the Provincial House of Traditional Leaders, the traditional leaders and the SA Police Service, SAPS, the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities, the Department of Health and the Department of Social Development. These partnerships resulted in the following: Firstly, 31 cases of murder have been opened in the Eastern Cape. Secondly, two arrests have been made in Limpopo and the suspects have been charged, one case is opened and the investigation is underway. Lastly, six principals of the initiation schools have been arrested in the North West.

The department has scheduled a meeting with the provincial houses of traditional leaders in October 2015 to ensure that we are ready for the forthcoming summer initiation season. It should be noted that the department has drafted a policy on the customary practice of initiation, which was considered by the Cabinet in July 2015. The provinces have been implementing the principles of this policy since the past winter initiation season of 2015.

 

The Ministry continues to monitor the implementation of the principles of the policy, to ensure that the structures envisaged in that policy are operational. The department, the National House of Traditional Leaders and provinces have established a committee which in turn has the task teams consisting of traditional leaders, SAPS, the provincial Departments of Health and Social Development to monitor initiation practices and schools to ensure that there are no fatalities.

 

The Deputy Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs responsible for Traditional Affairs, Mr Obed Bapela, is on the ground visiting and monitoring the initiation schools in the winter initiation seasons. These measures will continue during the summer initiation season to provide oversight of the schools and setting the basis for registered legal and unregistered initiation schools to ensure that there are no fatalities.

 

The initiation awareness campaigns that were held during the 2015 winter initiation season to sensitise all the role-players to comply with the principles of the initiation policies will continue in the coming summer initiation season. In addition, the leadership of the National House of Traditional Leaders and the department of traditional affairs continue to engage with the provinces and the provincial houses, to improve the existing structures and monitoring systems in line with the principles of the draft initiation policy. Thank you.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, I also want to join in by offering the condolences of the IFP towards the families that lost their loved ones; and to say, hon Deputy Minister, that any cultural practice that we perform, should in essence really be about life and should not be a gateway to death. I think that maybe the time has come that we bite the bullet and actually start making and taking drastic steps to ensure that we save lives, because young lives cannot be lost to something which is supposed to be life itself.

 

Now, is the department with the stakeholders that you have outlined considering medical circumcisions in the hospitals and clinics so that thereafter they can be transferred to the mountains and the initiation schools to continue then with the other processes that are there? The continuous loss of life cannot be something that is allowed to continue happening because it is perpetual every single year. Whilst we accept that the numbers of death have gone down, but I think that now we must be able to converge ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Hlengwa for a very constructive and thoughtful intervention. Certainly, we recognise that we are discussing a matter of cultural sensitivity that must be approached with circumspection. But it has to be done so on the basis of zero tolerance for fatalities and permanent damage to the lives of young people. So, in that regard, in our interaction with the national and provincial houses of traditional leaders and the other role-players, we are examining all the options, including those which you’ve referred to. Thank you.

 

Mr B M BHANGA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, in relation to the deaths of the initiates, we need a decisive intervention. What you have presented here does not reflect decisiveness. I say this because, last year there were more than 82 initiates who died, this year their number is 34. That is the death of young people, and are expecting more.

 

In all this, we do not see the government of the ANC taking decisive action to make sure that the deaths are totally reduced. One child that dies is more. Therefore, in the Western Cape alone, we have implemented an initiation framework and protocol in 2011 with great success. This includes the first aid training and kits to all traditional surgeons and healers, and a standby medical teamwork on each side of the initiation process.

 

Will you then give your assurance that when the summer initiation season comes, no initiation school will operate without these two interventions in the other provinces? We therefore want action from you; we don’t want the recurrence of the deaths of our children. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Hon Bhanga, this is literally a matter of life and death. I don’t think it’s a matter that needs to be politicised, especially, in the way that you just did. I’m not sure about the statement that you referred to about the Western Cape. What is it exactly that you are referring to?  Because to the best of my knowledge is that, all of us in this House are a national Parliament that is concerned with all the provinces. As you would know, and from the statistics that I have presented, there has been a drastic reduction in the number of deaths from over 80 to 30. That is 30 deaths too many. We have articulated that we have a zero tolerance policy. The action has been taken in all the provinces. We are tracking down on all the illegal initiation schools, arrests have been made and the prosecutions have been instituted. As you would see from the figures that were presented, the vast number of deaths occurred in the Eastern Cape and it is for that reason that we are focusing our attention and all of our efforts on the Eastern Cape. We are working with the provincial government, the traditional leaders and with the law enforcement agencies. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Motlatsamodulasetilo, borathipana bano ba setso ba ba seng ka famo molaong ba mo dikarolong tse di amilweng ke dintsho tseno kwa Kapa Botlhaba, a baagi le mapodisi ba a itse ka gabona?. Fa lefapha le dirisana le mapodisi, ba tla dira jang gore dikolo tseno tse di seng ka fa molaong di tswalwe, mme borathipana bao ba tshwarwe? (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Chairperson, the illegal initiation schools’ teachers are in those areas that are affected by the related death in the Eastern Cape: Is the community and the police aware of them? If the department is working with the police, how are they going to ensure that these illegal initiation schools are closed, and those teachers involved are arrested?]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Deputy Speaker, as we have said, even during the past initiation season, we have worked together with all the relevant role-players, our provinces, our provincial Departments of Health and Social Development, as well as the police and prosecution service, and very importantly, the traditional leaders.

 

The Deputy Minister Bapela, the traditional leaders and the joint task teams between national and provincial government were on the ground to the initiation schools. That is why we were able to go to an area like Soweto where we discovered an illegal initiation school that we have disbanded; we effected arrests and instituted prosecution. That is what we will continue doing.

 

Mr M P MAPULANE: Deputy Speaker, we would also like to offer our condolences as the ANC for those of our young boys who perished in the hands of the unscrupulous owners of the initiation schools. The ritual of initiation is fundamentally an African cultural ritual that seeks in a controlled and well-organised manner to prepare young boys and graduate them into the next life of manhood. Now, the question I would like to ask the Deputy Minister is, whether the department does not consider introducing legislation that will permanently reclaim this noble cultural practice of initiation from the current stranglehold by the opportunists and con artists who are often untrained and unskilled, and whose primary purpose is to abuse this ritual in order to extract profit? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Let me thank the hon member, again, for another thoughtful and very constructive intervention. We agree with you and indeed, the Deputy Minister Bapela has announced the intention to explore the introduction of legislation that would criminalise the operation of illegal initiation schools. Therefore, we are definitely in support of the suggestion that has been made by the hon member, and it has been acted upon. Thank you.

 

Steps to ensure provision of basic services in specified rural areas

 

366.        Prof N M Khubisa (NFP) asked the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

 

Whether, with reference to the Minister of Water and Sanitation’s reply to question 672 on 1 April 2015,  he is aware that the persons in the rural parts of six local municipalities (names furnished) which form the Uthungulu District Municipality have been living without water, electricity and other basic services; if so, (a) what steps has he taken to ensure that the specified areas are provided with the specified services, (b) when will the residents of Ongoye under the Mzimela Traditional Authority get water, electricity and other basic services, since there are persons in these areas that have to share water with animals from the rivers that are drying up and (c) what steps has he taken in co-operation with the Ministers of Water and Sanitation, Energy and Public Enterprises to ensure that these persons get the abovementioned basic services as provided by the specified departments?                                                                      NO3530E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, we are aware that rural parts of the six local municipalities namely: uMlalazi, Mthonjaneni, Ntambanana, Nkandla, uMfolozi and uMhlathuze of the uThungulu district are experiencing severe shortages of water. This is mainly due to the prevailing drought situation in the area. As a result of the drought, the water supply for all the schemes in an around the area have been halved. We’ve consulted with the Minister of Water and Sanitation regarding this matter. The uThungulu District Municipality is the water services authority for the area and we’ve consulted with them to obtain the following information regarding what is being done by the municipality and other stakeholders to address this situation.

 

The new KwaHlokohloko Regional Bulk Water Scheme has been completed. A tender for reticulation networks from the new scheme is currently under adjudication and scheduled to be finalised by the end of September 2015. On completion of the reticulation it is expected that 95% of the Mzimela Traditional Authority area will be provided with adequate water supply. In the meantime, three new boreholes have been drilled in the district municipality and are supplying water in the area. In addition the district municipality is providing communities with water through water tankers in the area. An alternative source to the dried up Qwayinduka Scheme in the area has been identified and construction is under way.

 

In addition, the refurbishment of the Wayinene water scheme in the area has been planned and designed and will be out on tender shortly. We have consulted with the Minister of Energy regarding the provision of electricity in this area. There is an ongoing programme of rural electrification in the area through Eskom and the six municipalities funded by the Integrated National Electrification Programme grants. Eskom and the municipalities were granted R126 million and R77 million respectively for the 2015-16 financial year. Over the 2015-18 period the amounts allocated to Eskom on the six municipalities are R399 million and R235 million respectively. Thank you.

 

Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, thank you Deputy Minister for the response. However, one would like to know whether as you speak currently, is there any programme in place or in the pipeline to supply the community under the Mzimela Traditional Authority with water tanks in order to address the issue of water shortage? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon member, I think that I have indicated that pending the completion of the project would result in 95% of the Mzimela area being provided with water and that water tanking is taking place. I would also just like to say that the issue of drought in KwaZulu-Natal is very serious and that a provincial drought declaration was published in December of 2014.

The national government has prioritised R352 million to support affected municipalities. The funds have been used to purchase or rent water tankers and water tanks, refurbish and upgrade municipal water treatment and distribution infrastructure to protect springs and to drill boreholes. Water restrictions have been put in place cross numerous towns and cities such as Vryheid, Ulundi, Mhlathuze, North Coast and South Coast.

 

An amount of R24 million of drought relief funds from the National Disaster Management Centre is being used by the affected municipalities to drill additional boreholes and to install micro water supply schemes and hand pumps. Thank you.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, you have spoken about the issue of water tankers and as we all know that the uThungulu area is basically 90% to 100% rural. Furthermore, it is a major problem for the communities to access water and water tankers. Now, whilst water trucks are sent out, the major issue concerning communities is that they have to buy water from these suppliers. Communities are distressed and live in poverty conditions. Already money has been pumped in, so I hope that you will look into this matter and launch an investigation into it because we can’t have a situation whereby taxpayers are being double taxed and fooled.

 

Secondly, Deputy Minister, the uThungulu district has sent back money to Treasury for electricity and water, so this crisis is being compounded by that. Dispatched grants are not utilised ... [Time expired]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Hlengwa, we will certainly look into that matter. We are acutely aware of the dangers inherent in water tankering and we accept it as a short-term measure. We know that there are other municipalities where that is being abused and in some cases, in fact, water supply infrastructure is being actively sabotaged by those who run water tankering services. So we are very aware of that and we will look into both matters that you raised and will respond to you in writing. Thank you.

 

Mr N A MASONDO: Deputy Speaker, given the fact that this government is committed to the implementation of bulk electricity, provision of water infrastructure as well as the delivery of basic services. The reality is that not all of this work can be done and carried out all at once, in all the areas and that this requires a collaborative effort beyond the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Can the Deputy Minister clarify as to what work will be undertaken, where and within what broad timelines? [Interjections.]

 

Mr I OLLIS: Tell us about Johannesburg and how you ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I think hon Masondo raises a valid question but I think its nature, scope and its extent cannot be clarified by way of a supplementary question. We would gladly do a full briefing to the portfolio committee or to respond to the member in writing.

 

I can just say that indeed the provision of basic services is not something that is isolated or confined to one department. It is for that reason that the President has established an interministerial task team on basic service delivery that is chaired by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and it brings together all of your frontline basic service delivery departments in attempt to promote a more integrated service delivery model and programmes. Thank you.

 

Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo lapho ngaphambili, umbuzo wami ukuthi ngakhala ngabantu baseMthandeni ku-ward 7 ngaphansi kweKhansela u-Betty Luthuli. Ngithi kuleya ndawo abantu abanawo amanzi, baphuza amanzi nezilwane. Kuze kube yimanje lutho usizo. Nakanjalo naku-ward 4 eSidumbini, abantu baswele amanzi. Ubona ngemiphongolo igcwele belindele amanzi lawa abizwa ngama waterkan [water tankers], kodwa izimoto azifiki. Noma zifika, zifika ligamenxe ihora leshumi nambili ebusuku. Kuthiwa abantu bazowathutha kanjani amanzi?

 

Sicela lapho angiphendule uNgqongqoshe ngokukhulu ukukhululeka ngoba ngiyayidinga manje lempendulo. Lo mbuzo ngawubuza ngifika la ePhalamende. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson my question is, I raised my concern about the people of Mthandeni in ward 7 under Councillor Betty Luthuli. People in that area do not have water, they share drinking water with animals. Up until now, they have not received assistance. Also in ward 4 at Sidumbini Mission, people do not have water. You see water containers lining waiting for water from the water tankers, but the water tankers never come. Even if they come, they come at 12:30 midnight. How are people supposed to collect water? I would like the Minister to answer me freely because I want the answer now. I asked this question when I got here in Parliament. Thank you.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, again, we would very much like to engage with the member to get further details and we undertake to respond in writing. We are not expecting the member to direct a written question to us. We will take that initiative to get those details and to respond to the member ... [Interjections.] and if necessary to visit the affected areas. Thank you.

 

Particulars regarding completion of evaluation projects on performance of government departments

 

356.        Mr M S Booi (ANC) asked the Minister in The Presidency:

 

(a)(i) How many evaluation projects on the performance of government departments have been undertaken and completed by his office in the 2014-15 financial year in order to ensure that the 14 Outcomes of the Medium Term Strategic Framework are achieved and (ii) how many of these evaluations his office plans to undertake for the 2016-17 financial year and (b) what do the results of the completed evaluations indicate in terms of achieved progress and the impact of government programmes on improving the lives of the citizens?                                                                                                      NO3519E

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, the answer to Question 356 is that, during the 2014-15 financial year, 25 evaluations were in progress. Fifteen of these evaluations were in the plan for 2014-15 and 10 evaluations were carried over from the previous years.

 

In 2014-15, nine evaluation reports were produced since the inception of the evaluation system. Fifteen evaluations on government programmes have been completed and approved. For the 2016-17 financial year, eight national evaluations have been selected for implementation.

 

The results of individual evaluations of the various government programmes completed so far are varied. For example, an evaluation of early childhood development, ECD, programme shows the need to expand the ECD programme to include the first 1 000 days from conception though proper nutrition.

 

Subsequent to the ECD evaluation, an evaluation of nutrition interventions for children under the age of five, which arose from the ECD evaluation, showed the importance of nutrition in contributing to child mortality, and that 21% of children under the age of five are stunted, much higher than for similar countries.

 

A key recommendation was for an input of the health outcome to be on nutrition and in practice. As a result, the Medium-Term Strategic Framework incorporates several targets on nutrition in outcomes two and seven. Thank you, Chair.

 

Mr M S BOOI: Hon Minister, given that this was a new development in the fifth term of Parliament, to which we added evaluation, how many lessons are there that we have to learn, for us to be strengthened and to grow from where we are? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, the important lessons learned from the evaluations as indicated above are important lessons which we need to draw from. Already, I have indicated that we are seeing the impact of the evaluation results on policies and programmes which include a new policy that has been recently drafted in response to the Early Childhood Development Diagnostic Review. This includes the need to target children from conception, a renewed focus on nutrition in children resulting from the evaluation of nutrition interventions for children under the age of five.

 

Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Minister, for the answer. Now, I think the nub of the Question posed by hon Booi is, whether or not these evaluations are having an impact on the lives of people. Yes, hon Minister, you have quoted one such example in the ECD case and that is laudable. Now, there were 25 evaluations done according to your report or your answer to us. Are there other examples of how these performance evaluations reports have impacted on the lives of ordinary people?

Added to that is, what has informed these eight new programmes or departments that have been selected for the 2016-17 financial year? Because, you did mention to us that there are eight departments that have been selected. Thank you.

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, I came up with examples which have been indicated. Part of the process in ensuring that ... which departments ... or the outcomes that are prioritised ... it has been informed by the challenges and the data which showed what challenges are facing the country. But, what is it that government needs to prioritise in making sure that it addresses issues which affect ordinary people. One of those is the issue of health. It is one of the priorities, as I have indicated. The issue of early childhood learning between the Department of Basic Education ... But, it also relates to social development in terms of addressing poverty alleviation amongst the communities.

 

So, those are some of the programmes which have been outlined in the areas in making sure that more people can have access to jobs and also decent and quality life. Those are some of the issues which were considered in terms of the various outcomes in government.

 

Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Minister, let me see if I can latch on to what hon Singh did and cite a different example. The issue with the evaluations is that they happen, but we do not see a follow-through. Let me give you an example – and I will quote the example of the Service Delivery Improvement Plans.

 

In the year 2012-13, 68%; and in the year 2013-14, 85% and in 2014-15, 88% of national departments reported. But, here is the nub: in 2013-14, a mere 22 out of 131 national and provincial departments submitted progress reports. Progress reports. That is what we need. Where is the progress? It is absolutely dismal.

 

What is the Minister going to do to crack the whip on these non-compliant national and provincial departments so that, eventually, we can have efficient service delivery to improve the lives of the citizens as the Minister has just said? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, I just want to indicate that the monitoring and evaluation is putting up system. For instance, a reporting mechanism to make sure that the departments which are unable to account and report on progress, are being named and shamed. But also, to make sure that the reports are made public, because that is one of the ways of making sure that the department takes responsibility ... by naming and shaming those departments and also engaging them in making sure that they can indeed meet the challenges which are faced by the people.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, there is one slot left. Is there any member who wishes to do that? There is no indication on the floor of who is here.

 

No one? No.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Speaker, we have pressed.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... What is your name, hon member? Your name is not here.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am sitting here where hon Maxon is sitting.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, your name is not here.

 

Mr I OLLIS: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is why I was saying, hon member, who is here to rise because your name is not here. Where is your seat, hon member?

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I have pressed where hon Maxon is sitting.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You know what the Rule is, right? So take your seat.

 

Mr I M OLLIS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Motau did push his button, and he is sitting in his seat and he is ready to ask a Question.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Hon Motau asked a Question. What is your story?

 

Hon members, we proceed to the next Question. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

 

Mr M WATERS: There is nothing in the Rules preventing one member from asking two supplementary Questions. If there are ... The Rules allow for four supplementary Questions. You have indicated only three have been asked. So, if hon Motau has pressed his button again and you have recognised him, then he is entitled to ask it.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. I did recognise him. He did ask. Yes. So, he is not here.

 

Mr M WATERS: But he pressed his button again. You said there is one more Question to be asked, so he pressed his button.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have to see that. I am afraid I have to see that. [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, hon Motau has pressed his button. As you said, we have only had three supplementary Questions. Would you please recognise him?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hold on, hon member. Hon members, I am going to do as we agreed we are going to do. We are proceeding. Press the button; your name will appear here twice or thrice.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, now you are telling me ... Yes, hon member.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I speak to you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, there have been instances in the past – and I have been one of them – when we were allowed two Questions. ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, in the past ...

 

Mr M WATERS: But a precedent has been set.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Waters, in the past ...

 

Mr M WATERS: Yes.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... we did things that we said we are not going to do here ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: But there is nothing ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just last week ... So, we are not going that route. Take your seat. With respect, hon member, we will not make an exception because you are making that appeal today.

 

Mr M WATERS: Which Rule prevents a member from asking two Questions? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no! That Rule is that the Chair ...

 

Mr M WATERS: Which Rule? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... may decide ... [Interjection.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I rise on a point of order, hon Deputy Speaker.

 

Mr M WATERS: If our names are on the list you must recognise us. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member, please. Thank you very much. Hon Chief Whip?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker. Hon Waters knows that you cannot question the decision of the presiding officer unless you go to the Rules Committee. He knows that. You have made a ruling; he must move on. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: Then the Question Time will be over. And he knows the Deputy Speaker is wrong.

 

Particulars regarding Thusong Service Centres

 

362.        Ms B P Mabe (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration:

 

(a) How many Thusong Service Centres are currently in the country and (b) what total amount was spent to establish the specified centres?                                     NO3525E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, the question is on how many Thusong ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Point of order, Chair? I am here at the opposition benches.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your ... Just hold on. Someone else will take over from me. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Don’t run away from me. [Laughter.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Why are you rising, hon member? Hon Filtane?

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Okay. Just as well, there has been a change of the guard. What we wanted to request was that the numbers of the questions should please be read out. That’s what helps to guide us to know if you want to participate with follow up questions. [Interjections.] Yes. It makes it very difficult. You can just give us the number of questions that are going to be responded to and we will appreciate it. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Order, hon members! Order!

 

Mr M WATERS: Chair ... [Interjections.] ... may I address you? Just on the previous question, there are ... [Interjections.] Rule 113(4) stipulates that four supplementary questions may be asked. Right? There is no one arguing with that. Three members have asked supplementary questions. There is one spot still left. The hon Motau pressed his button to ask the fourth supplementary question and the previous presiding officer made a ruling that for some bizarre reason an individual member cannot ask two supplementary questions if there are spots available. [Interjections.] And I would like you to reconsider that ruling, please.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, the Deputy Speaker made the ruling and we will proceed to question 362 and we will deal with the supplementary questions as we go along so that we take the four supplementary questions when we get there. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: We will be objecting to that ruling, definitely.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): That’s fine. The hon Deputy Minister? Order, hon member!

 

Ms S V KALYAN: May I address you on a point of order, House Chairperson? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, what is the point of order?

 

Ms S V KALYAN: The point of order is that the NA Table seems to be giving inconsistent advice to the presiding officers and that is quite unfortunate because the presiding officers depend on expert advice. The member at the table turned it on and said that the fourth question could not be asked. Now, I ask that the NA Table should give the right advice so that the Rules of this House can be implemented correctly.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member; we will deal with the matter. The hon Deputy Minister?

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, the first question that was asked is: How many Thusong Service Centres do we have in the country? The answer is that we have a total of 175 Thusong Service Centres, 47% of them being in the rural areas. We had 183 and some of them were burned down during the service delivery protests and some of them have just remained dysfunctional because of various reasons, including issues relating to information and communications technology, ICT.

 

The second question was: What amount was spent to establish each of these centres? The custodianship of the Thusong Service Centres is the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, but we will endeavour to respond to the question that has been asked. We as the department have only established one Thusong Service Centre which is the urban Maponya Mall Thusong Service Centre. The estimated cost establishment of that was 30 million which included the design, infrastructure, governance issues, communications, ICT, security, branding and marketing of the Thusong Service Centre, in this case the urban Maponya Mall Thusong Service Centre.

 

As I said earlier on - as the question of the Thusong Service Centre was raised, the monthly budget is under the custodianship of the GCIS. What we will respond to is what is under our responsibility as the Department of Public Service and Administration. The current cost estimate is around 500 000 per month, which includes the lease of the building, maintenance - which includes fumigation and lift maintenance. We also have security of both the physical and electronic environments, cleaning, queue management system, providing water to drink to people who come to the Thusong Service Centre, municipal rates and ICT.

 

The costs that I have reflected on are borne by each department or each municipality or each entity that participates in the Thusong Service Centre programme of the Maponya Mall. We have the City of Johannesburg and we have other departments that are residents of the Thusong Service Centre at the programme in Maponya Mall. We are still in the process of finalising discussions between the Department of Public Service and Administration and the GCIS for the possible transfer of the programme from the GCIS to the Department of Public Service and Administration.

 

The discussion at the moment is that we are still determining the best possible solution, for instance, with respect to the operational issues relating to running the Thusong Service Centre. We are also looking at the financial model and governance issues around the arrangements that should apply once the transfer has been effected.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick):

 

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chair, thank you for the reply from the Deputy Minister. As the Deputy Minister is aware that some of the Thusong Service Centres are dysfunctional, how possible is it that we use the new model to resuscitate those that were donated by the NGOs and the private sector using the new model? I thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, we are not averse to looking at what it is that would come up as suggestions from the House. What we have to take into account is the cost implications of that. As I said earlier on, hon member, the programme does not really belong to us as the Department of Public Service and Administration. In the discussions that are currently underway between the two departments - those are the issues that we are looking at, including the funding model of the Thusong Service Centres.

 

It is a bit difficult as a department to determine what we take on and what we don’t because we do not have the budget to do that currently. What we’ve also looked at is the possibility of having mobile Thusong Service Centres that will be able to assist people by providing the necessary services that they will require.

 

We have also begun a discussion with Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, to look at some of the train stations. For instance, we have spoken about ... look ... [Interjections.] ... yes, Prasa, because they are the owners of the railway stations. If you look at the number of feet that touch the platforms of those railway stations, those are the people who, under normal circumstances, would not be able to access the services of government but will be able to access those services after hours. So, we are trying to make sure that every citizen who has to access government services that are supplied by government in the form of the Department of Home Affairs and all other areas is able to access those services at any given point. Thank you.

 

Ms V KETABAHLE: Hon House Chairperson, Deputy Minister,

 

... phaya e-Intsika Yethu Local Municiplity kunye nezinye iindawo, la maziko awasebenzi. Into eyenzekayo kusetyenziswa imali nexesha kwaba masipala basekhaya kwaye akukho ndawo yoneleyo. Umzekelo, e-Intsika Yethu Local Municipality, oonoontlalontle bane kwi-ofisi enye. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

 

[... these centres are not functioning in Intsika Yethu Local Municipality and other areas.  Wasting money and time is what is happening in these local municipalities and there is no one who is satisfied. For an example, in Intsika Yethu Local Municipality, there are four social workers in one office.]

 

How do they maintain these Thusong Service Centres, both in terms of infrastructure and operations?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, I am not familiar with the Thusong Service Centre that the hon member refers to but I will find out what is going on in the department. Again, maybe it becomes a little bit difficult for me to be respond by saying we are not the custodians of the Thusong Service Centres but we do assist the GCIS in operationalising some of these issues.

 

I will endevour to make sure that between the Minister and myself, we find out what is going on at Intsika Yethu Local Municipality. I am not quite sure where Intsika Yethu Local Municipality is, but I will find out and we will provide you with the necessary details. As to how we are going to improve office space, we will deal with that, because, as you say, it becomes difficult to have a small office space and expect that people will be able to operate efficiently.

 

Mr M S MABIKA: Hon House Chair, my question to the Deputy Minister is to ask how much is the department spending each year to support these Thusong Service Centres for the management? Are they just handed over to the municipalities with all the costs - considering that some municipalities are sometimes struggling to pay their own staff members? I want to ask if the Thusong Service Centre managers are also becoming the burden of the municipalities? Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, through you to the hon member, the figure that I can give you is for the Maponya Mall Thusong Service Centre. I have said that the cost is estimated to be around 500 000 per month. I have outlined what it is that determines the cost of running this particular Thusong Service Centre. I have said that we are currently in discussion with the GCIS to determine the best possible way of transferring that programme from the GCIS to the Department of Public Service and Administration. Thank you.

 

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Hon House Chairperson, I think it must be clear to everybody that there are huge frustrations regarding the Thusong Service Centres. While we condemn the burning down of such centres, I think that government must stand up and take notice of people’s response to the frustration levels. My question is regarding, for an example, the Thusong Service Centre in Motherwell which is being built by donors funding to the value of R46 million, where construction has started five years ago and the only staff visible are the security guards trying to stem the vandalism at this centre.

 

Which department or sphere of government must be held responsible to manage and develop standard operating procedures for these centres? How will your department ensure that these centres are fulfilling their mandate in future? I thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson through you to the hon member, as I have said earlier on, we are not the custodians of the process - but you are correct to ask that question about what we will we do as government and about which sphere of government this programme reside with. It belongs to the national sphere of government. In developing the standard operating procedures, I think this is the process that will run parallel with the discussions that we are currently having with the GCIS because we are also the custodians, by the way, of the service delivery improvement programme.

 

So, as we look at that and the Batho Pele principles and how we take them forth, we should then be able to say that these are the standard operating procedures of each and every Thusong Service Centre around the country, be it in the rural or urban area.

 

As I said earlier on, one of the issues that we also need to be looking at currently is that some of them have been burned down during service delivery protests and some of them are dysfunctional because of management reasons. Others are dysfunctional because we have not been able to put the ICT infrastructure in place to help them monitor even the performance of the Thusong Service Centres. Thank you.

 

Mr M WATERS: Hon House Chair, I just like to raise a point that you have allowed fuor questions and we are appealing to the presiding officers for consistency as far as the application of Rules is concerned and the fairness of the application in future. If you could raise that with the other presiding officers we will also appreciate it. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The matter will receive attention, hon member.

 

Intentions regarding initiation of a youth service programme

 

341.        Ms P T van Damme (DA) asked the Minister in The Presidency:

 

Whether his department intends to initiate a youth service programme which will entail either voluntary or compulsory enrolment in the SA National Defence Force; if not, why not; if so, what are the full relevant details of such a programme?                           NO3503E

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the reply is that the Deputy Minister in the Presidency has appointed a task team to review, amend and finalise the co-ordination and expansion of the framework for National Youth Service Programme. The task team, which comprises of representatives of government departments and civil society, is currently looking at the existing National Youth Service Programme framework as a basis for a better co-ordination and expansion including the role that the SA National Defence Force could play in an expanded National Youth Service Programme. The task team expects to conclude its work within three months.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson to the hon Minister, thank you for your reply. However, with all due respect, you haven’t answered my question. My question is, will the department be considering military enrolments? I think it deserves either a yes, we are or no, we are not, type of answer. So please answer my question. Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well, you should appreciate that I am giving what the government is doing, not a yes or no. Because I think you really want to understand what is happening, and the answer I am giving to you, is about what government is doing instead of a yes or no. We don’t give such answers. I am giving you information. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: I am trying to empower you so that you can be able to understand exactly what is happening. So if you are looking for a yes or no ... In my education I was never taught to say yes or no. You need to elaborate and explain in anything that you are talking about instead of just saying, yes or no. So, I have given you information, you can go and share it with other young people out there, about what this government is doing when it comes to young people.[Applause.]

 

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, Chairperson?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.

 

Mr M WATERS: I rise on a point of order: Maybe we can empower the Minister because she has not answered the question. The question was whether or not the government is going to initiate a voluntary or compulsory enrolment to the National Defence Force. It is a simple question which the Minister is dodging and fudging. The Minister needs to answer the question. She is here representing the government and has to be held accountable. She hasn’t answered the question. It’s a simple, very simple question and she needs to answer it please.

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: On a point of order.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon Chief Whip?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The question is very clear. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: If you were to just listen so that I can help you. The question is very simple.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What’s the point of order, Chief Whip?

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The point of order is: The answer is also simple. It says there’s a task team to investigate ... [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... the final decision which has not yet been released. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order! Order!

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: How can you say no or yes when the outcome is not there yet? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon members, the Minister has replied now, whether you like the reply or not. She referred to a process that is currently underway. Now you see, when you get a reply is a matter of how do you want to treat the reply that you have received from the Minister. But the Minister has replied to the question as it currently stands. The hon Hlengwa?

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: I’m sorry, Chairperson. On a point of order.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Awu! inhlungu nje. [Ouch! Such torment.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Hlengwa, just give us some time.

 

Mr M WATERS: Sorry, hon Chair may I address you?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes.

 

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, it’s quite obvious from the Minister shaking her head and telling me that she’s not going to answer the question. That she does not know ... [Interjection.] ... Don’t point at me. That she does not know the answer to the question and once again ... [Interjections.]

 

The HON FEMALE MEMBER: Who are you?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order!

 

Mr M WATERS: ... showing the incompetence of this executive. [Applause.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon members. Hon Hlengwa?

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much hon ... [Interjection.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Minister, you’ll get an opportunity. Hon members, we are dealing here with a question and answer session. Now whether you like the reply or not, if there is a response the response is there and the idea of follow-up questions is for further interaction and for the Minister to can then further elaborate ... Hon Hlengwa?

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza, Sihlalo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]

 

Hon Minister ... [Interjection.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, your member asked the question. Let’s respect the other member who is asking the question now.

 

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chair to the hon Minister, you have indicated that there is a task team and you have listed all sorts of people who are involved in it to review the National Youth Policy which is 2015 to 2020. It is now 2015 and we are still busy with the review and actually we should be implementing the policy. So it means that we are behind. So, what are the timelines so that we can conclude this review? Because all the issues that were raised now are the issues that you have also raised and they hinge on the review that you are speaking about. But if it’s dragged on, we will come to the end of the term, which is 2015 to 2020, with the policy still being under review. So, when are we going to conclude this so that we can actually understand better what government is intending to do if anything at all?

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, to the hon member, with regard to the timelines, as I have indicated the task team is expected to conclude its work within the next coming three months. And I believe that after they have concluded the whole work they will be able then to table that to the public and also before this House in order to ensure that the timelines are met. So, three months, that’s what it says.

 

Mr M S BOOI: House Chair to the Minister, because this government does not wait until the last minute, taking the experience of what has happened in April 2013 and the formation of the Youth Accord, can you tell us some of the lessons that you could draw from that one in particular? Thank you Minister. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson that is a new question. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, allow me to chair this session please? [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: It’s a new question. [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Allow me to chair the session. Don’t chair the session from the benches. The hon Minister will indicate if she is prepared or in a position to reply to that question.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, as you know, part of the 2013 Youth Accord was to make sure that various skills are created but it was through the participation of labour ... [interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: ... government and business which committed in making sure that young people are being allowed to develop skills. Internships have been developed and part of that is to make sure that young people are able to participate in the economy of our country. And currently, as we speak, we have seen various participants and opportunities created for young people. Thank you.

Mr S MOTAU: Hon Chair, to the Minister, in the Cape Times on 12 August this year, the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, CEO Yershen Pillay said that the militarisation of the National Youth Service can be one aspect of a broader, more innovative socially responsive programme to address the question of youth unemployment. Our question is, can we take a steer, given that the task team is reviewing whether the ANC-led government will consider the enlistment of young people in order to address the question of unemployment? And if the answer is yes, can we then draw the inference that the government is so desperate that it will even walk in the footsteps of the apartheid regime in terms of the conscription of our children? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well, can I indicate this, when an individual talks about militarisation it is not government’s view. [Interjections.]

 

Mr I OLLIS: Waaa!

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Waaa! [Laughter.] What I want to say is that, currently as we know, any young person who wants to be involved with the SA National Defence Force can do so voluntarily, no one has moved that. And I think it’s quite clear in this House that at the dawn of democracy, it’s this ANC-led government which ensured that no young person or any other person is forced to enlist but they are able to offer voluntarily their services on behalf of the country. So that position still stands and I would not see this process moving in that space of going back and enforcing people to be in a space which they don’t like or don’t want. And I think we all believe in democracy. Where we are now, young people are allowed to make choices whether they want to become part of any environment or not. So, there is no way ... What the CEO said, is not government’s policy. He might have expressed his own opinion, but we can’t go back to that because we know what the implications are. Thank you, Chair.

 

Details regarding soon-to-be appointed commissioners to serve on National Planning Commission

 

358.        Ms Z S Dlamini-Dubazana (ANC) asked the Minister in The Presidency:

 

With reference to his reply to question 499 on 17 March 2015, is the mandate of the soon-to-be appointed commissioners that will serve on the National Planning Commission different to the mandate of the previous commissioners on the National Planning Commission; if so, what (a) is the mandate of the soon-to-be appointed commissioners and (b) are the further relevant details?                                                                         NO3521E

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: The inaugural National Planning Commission had the primary mandate of formulating a long term vision and plan for the country, as well as advice the government on other policy and planning related matters.

 

The National Development Plan, NDP, was adopted by this Parliament on 15 August 2012. Thereafter, the commission shifted its focus to conducting research on long term and providing advice on implementation of the plan, both within and outside government.

 

Our President, Jacob Zuma, will soon announce names of the new commission, as well as outline changes to the mandate of the commission, taking it account the fact that we now have National Development Plan in place. The focus is now on implementation. Thank you.

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: House Chair, Minister, now that the focus is on the implementation, can you share with us:. What is the thinking within the Presidency towards the implementation? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Just to respond to the member: iIn line with the focus on implementation, the mandate will entail amongst others, as we move forward, undertaking detail planning in selected sectors to facilitate more effective implementation of the National Development Plan. , iIn addition, the National Development Plan will highlight the importance of working in partnerships and the commission will have an important role to play in facilitating partnerships across sectors.

 

Finally, as we know, the commission will continue to play a role in advising government on how to implement the NDP, as well as broader planning and policy issues that have implication for the long-term development of the country. Thank you, Chair.

 

Mr N SINGH: Now I think hon Members are aware that by and large, we all supported the National Development Plan when it was tabled, although the alliance partners of the ANC still do not support it. And there is another question related to that, to be replied a little later on. And we commended the work done by the then Minister Trevor Manuel and the commissioners under him.

 

I think the question that has been put on the Order Paper, through you hon Chairperson, says: Is the mandate of the new commissioners going to be different - and I would like to read into that - different, to the extent that they will be allowed to monitor and evaluate the work that has been done by departments, to ensure that the spirit and intension of the recommendations that they have made are being carried out by government departments?,

 

Because we attended a workshop recently, hon Chairperson, chaired by you - under your wing - where some commissioners expressed concern that, the implementation side by government departments was a matter of serious concern. We shouldn’t have self –monitoring. So, the question is: Will the new commissioners, be allowed to monitor what the department is doing in that respect? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: May I say, hon Chair, that, to you, hon Mmember: It is a concern for me to hear that, they were concerns raised by commissioners who are are supposed to implement the work which was done throughout the past five years. And just to share with you: is that I think the responsibility and recommendations, which are made in terms of implementation will have to be effected according to what is expected.

 

So, I don’t think we can create a National Development Plan, which then must be undermined by various departments. They have a responsibility, they have a role. It was created precisely to identify, how do we would move forward in changing the lives of our ordinary people as a country, so I become concerned already, when we are still in a space where commissioners will have to be confirmed. They are already they are expressing discomfort, because then you ask yourself. Will they be able to execute their responsibility fully?

 

And in my own view I would urge: whoever who is going to be the new commissioner must be confident enough to deliver and implement the mandate as they are required in terms of our own laws, because the NDP, as we all know, has been supported by almost everybody in South Africa, and that is why we are proceeding with the NDP without compromising on it, because we believe it is one of the blue prints which can change the lives of people in South Africa. Thank you.

 

Mr S C MOTAU: Thank you very much, Minister: You have gone to the heart of the problem that we have with the NDP. As you know, it has been a false start, despite the fact that this House and many millions of people in this country agreed that, this is the way to go. The question and the problem is this: On the mandate of the new commissioners, what authority, and what powers will they have to actually do the kinds of things that you say in order to execute their responsibilities fully? Because there seems to be the stumbling blocks, what authority will they have so that we can, for once and for all, have the NDP implemented?

 

MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can I just indicate, that with their powers given in the NDP, there are and recommendations and work functions which they are supposed to be done. I don’t think it will be up to individuals to decide what to do, those powers are defined in the NDP itself, but also, what it does is t to say what will be their responsibility, if the powers are such that they have got to oversee government come up with mechanisms, which will make sure that we unblock delivery but and we are able to advance the interest of our country moving the economy forward. That exactly what they are expected to do!

 

And that is why I am saying: It becomes a concern for me when we start having people who have not even started begun their responsibilities, already they anticipating obstacles.

 

I believe: If you accept any responsibility, especially in the nature of the NDP commissioners, we expect them to execute their responsibilities without favour, because that is what their expected to do.

 

So if you say there are obstacles, my concern is that, I am not aware, what are the obstacles which they have already, which already they have encountered for them to execute their responsibilities, a as per the NDP, the outcomes and the recommendations from the previous commissioners. So I wouldn’t be able to articulate what is it that makes them pessimistic. Maybe you understand, but I am not aware s so far that there are difficulties already, which will make them ineffective, when they have not even started., which will make them not to be effective.

 

The intention of government and, the intention of coming up with the plan, is to make sure that we move to 2030 being a different country: Having attended in halving poverty; having addressed the issues of illiteracy; and having addressed the skilling of our people in South Africa, especially the young ones.

 

So, I would not imagine that, when we want to achieve that, we would have a situation whereby we already we start creating hurdles for people in implementing their responsibilities. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, the follow-up question from the Economic Freedom Fighters EFF is that, on the basis of the NDP target of five percent5% economic growth, which is unrealisable: To increase employment to 24 million, as per capita income, from R50 000 to R120 000; and to increase the share of national income of the bottom 40% population from 6% to 10%.

 

The question to you, and to the Minister and the government of the ANC is: Now that we are clear that 5% will not be achieved in the next ten years, can we take it that the NDP is a failed attempt? [Interjections.]  Can we get an answer for this question?

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well, in any situation you will always have prophets of doom. This is a plan which was conceptualised, not by the ANC-led government alone, but it has support of various people of South Africa: various sectors of our country, including young people. The projection was clearly defined in a way that it is scientific in taking us forward.

 

So as the ANC-led government, we are confident as the ANC government, that about the projections we set for ourselves: The 2030 vision which is outlining outlines and informing various programs and, various departments, and making sure that we change South Africa.

 

We are confident that we are going to achieve the 5% by that time.

 

Ultimately, I am just saying to you:  with all the challenges, the reason of coming up with the plan, was really to come up with the projection, and a clear vision and a clear a clear economic plan of growing our economy. And we are mindful that, there are current challenges economically, but also, we think that we are going to weather the storms in shaping and changing South Africa, and the lives of our people. [Applause.]

 

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The next question, number 352 has been asked by hon Bhengu to the Minister of Women in the Presidency ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair!

 

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order.

 

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Can the Minister of Women in the Presidency, hon Suzan Shabangu, attend to the specific figures that we are providing and we have raised this concern in the Whip’s Forum ... [Interjections.]

 

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: That this problem of members of the executive failing to provide quality replies ... [Interjections.] ... is a problem because it undermines the effort that we put in the question that we submitted for today. Can she please reply to the question in full? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Member! The Minister has responded to the primary question that is there. Yours is a supplementary that requested additional information that is there, and I am sure that can be part of a new question that you can put to the hon Minister. Hon Shivambu?

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, hon Matiase is saying that it is pure illiteracy to say that you are going to achieve 5% growth. Where do you get that from? [Interjections.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are you now answering on behalf of the Minister, hon Shivambu? [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, its pure confusion! How can you say you are going to achieve? [Interjections.]  We have negative growth now and all indications are pointing to fact that the economy is not going to grow because of the crisis ... [Interjections.] ... and then we must take ... [Interjections.] ... to dig the answers here!

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, we have dealt with the question! [Interjections.] We are now ready to move on to question 352. The hon Minister!

 

Steps to ensure synergy in relation to SA Integrated Programme of Action addressing Violence Against Women and Children

 

352.        Ms P Bhengu (ANC) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency:

 

What is being done to ensure synergy between the SA Integrated Programme of Action addressing Violence Against Women and Children (2013-2018), as published by the Department of Social Development, and the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence as reported in her 2015-16 Annual Performance Plan? NO3514E

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chairperson, I hope that the government in waiting will be able to give answers according to them. The realignment and reconfiguration of the Department of Women has necessitated cohesion between various deliverables and integrated approach in addressing violence against women. In this regard, the department has discontinued the development of National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence. The department has instead aligned itself with the integrated programme of action to address violence against women and children - which is a programme of 2013 to 2018 where we have a specific role to play. Thank you.

 

Ms P BHENGU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you for the response. For the purpose of providing more clarity to me and this House, can the Minister outline those specific roles of the Department of Women in the Presidency as published by the Department of Social Development and whether there’s anything we can do as members of the public to compliment your work and that of these departments? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, part of our responsibility is to participate in the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, which is constituted by the Departments of Social Development, Justice and Constitutional Development, Correctional Services, Home Affairs, Police Service and Basic Education. We will work with that IMC in making sure that we address issues like prevention, violence against women and children; respond in an integrated and co-ordinated manner by ensuring comprehensive packages of services to affected women; ensure long-term support and rehabilitation centre, but also play an advocacy role in ensuring that the integrated programme of action of addressing violence against women and children does happen. So far, we are also undertaking outreach, awareness programmes and having dialogues in different communities as part of our intervention plan. We will continue to carry out various campaigns in making sure that this programme of action becomes a success. Thank you, Chair.

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: House Chairperson, hon Minister, I don’t think our country has a shortage of plans; but we normally fall short with implementation due to a lack of financial resources and a political will. In the case with this new plan that is being tabled, this overarching integrated plan of action tabled by the Department of Social Development again has no mention of a budget. Have you found that the various departments have made financial provision for this plan and considering that this plan runs from to 2013 to 2018, various targets should now have been met? What has been the progress so far?

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, can I say that if you look at the budgets of various government departments, you will find that within the aligned functions they have budgeted for various issues which have a direct bearing on them. If you look at the police, for instance, those are some of the issues which we’ve got to look at, how are they budgeting and capacitating themselves and they have a programme which deals with that, including contact crimes. Part of the process will also be to make sure not just about budgeting but that facilities are available, improve services to various communities in making sure that at the end of the day we are able to reduce violence against women and children.

 

I can also indicate that as a department we will be doing countrywide national dialogues. When we talk about national dialogues I am not talking about calling communities to Pretoria. From November we will be moving to different provinces with a view of reaching out to almost all communities in saying how best can we improve services but also identify gaps because it is good enough to have a budget but what informs that budget. Therefore, part of the process will be to say that where do we need to focus and concentrate in addressing violence against women and children? That is part of a programme of making sure that the IMC becomes effective but also that there is not just money because there can be money. However, if that money is not properly focused then it is going to be a useless exercise in addressing the real challenges which are faced by women and children. Thank you, Chair.

 

Ms C N MAJEKE: I am sorry Chairperson, I pressed the wrong button, it is hon Majeke. Chair, through you to hon Minister, according to the recently released report on the status of women in our country, one of the most vulnerable people are the rural girl child and rural women. What is your departmental plan to dovetail the implementation of the relevant policies and programmes addressing gender-based violence to the municipalities in order to ensure that you reach out to the deep rural areas, whilst your department continues to provide regular support, advocacy, lobby, monitoring and evaluation? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, part of what we will be doing as I have indicated is that we intend to go to rural areas and make sure that we reach out to young girls. I’m mindful that over time we will end up in cities and don’t go out to reach out to young girls. It is not only young girls but also women in the rural areas. Part of the awareness campaign and programmes is to go and address issues which are affecting them and being able to come back and come up with a clear approach as government and make sure that the weaknesses which prevail, especial when it comes to rural people, are being addressed. For instance, access to service, access to health and some of the issues which might be difficult to deal with in some areas which we’ve discovered, however, we will have to come and make recommendations and find a way that does not only cater for urban areas which are addressed but that it also makes sure that a decent life does not end up in the city but is enjoyed in all corners of South Africa. Because that is the only way we can talk about an equal society where rural people can also feel confident and feel as a part of this country. Thank you.

 

Mrs D ROBINSON: Hon Chair, Minister, has your department and that of Social Development highlighted the need for greater co-operation between your board Ministry and those of SA Police Service and Justice and Correctional Services. You have also just spoken about the integration that is going to help and yet, we have this dreadful situation that perpetrators of violence, abuse and femicide get away with it all the time. Independent research released this week by Joy Watson shows that: Only an 8,7% of successful convictions take place; 62 649 cases were reported in 2013-14 but only 5 484 case have resulted in conviction. Eight point seven per cent is an utter disgrace and a shame. Therefore, Madam Minister, I feel that your department is failing women and girls. We need to show political work so that action can take place. What can you do in your integration? Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, Madam Robinson ... [Interjections.] ... hon Madam Robinson, I just want to indicate to you ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the Minister knows well that when you refer to each other, we call each other honourable; there are no madams in this House.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let’s stick to the honourable.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, I thought we are both madams because she started.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Let’s stick to honourable.

 

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, Just to indicate that I’m not aware of the statistics she is referring to. It would have been nice to share those statistics with me because those are not the only ones, but also to say that we have not failed the people of South Africa, especially women. When you talk about the issue of perpetrators, this coming Friday together with the Deputy President of this country, the SA National AIDS Council, Sanac, men and all organisations which are constituted by men will be gathered to have a round table precisely to deal with issue of gender-based violence in our society. Because part of it is to come as I’ve indicated in the past that you can’t only engage survivors and victims. So, the integration of society is to make sure that both men and women take responsibility.

We are on track, we have various programmes and I must say that we are succeeding. We also have to understand the history of violence in this country. It is deeply rooted and has various factors to it. We can’t therefore just think that it is going to be an event to deal with that. We’ve got to have a multipronged approach in addressing the serious problem of violence against women. It’s cultural and it’s patriarchy which we are still talking about it in our society. That on its own tells you that there’s a battle which we have to continue fighting. However, I know that I am not deterred; I know that we are moving in the right direction. Also our August month, the mere fact that we have seen various organisations raising the issue and making sure that they understand their rights as women and seeing the support of men. So we might still be having challenges, but we are on the right track. The 8% I don’t know what informs it. I want to say that we are on track. Thank you, Chair.

 

Policy of department regarding the assigning of a de facto ownership role to chiefs in respect of communal land

 

338.        Mr B M Bhanga (DA) asked the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

Whether it is the policy of his department to assign a de facto ownership role or function of communal land to the chiefs (details furnished); if not, (a) why not and (b) what is his position in this regard; if so, why?                                                                                                                    NO3500E

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): House Chair, it is not the mandate of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to formulate policy on this matter. This mandate lies with the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform.

 

We will be informed by the communal land policy being formulated by the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform and any legislation giving effect to that policy. Thank you.

 

Mr B M BHANGA: Chairperson, the current Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act allows for the legislation to provide a role to traditional leaders in, amongst other things, land allocation. Will the department’s new Bill expand the executive role given to traditional leaders and, if so, what accountability mechanism will accompany this expanded role?

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Chairperson, I am not sure which piece of legislation or which Bill the hon member is referring to.

 

As I have indicated, this is a matter that lies squarely within the mandate of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. We are participating in those processes. We have a real interest in those matters. They are of concern to the functioning of municipalities. They are a vital concern to many communities throughout the country, but it is not our mandate.

 

Ms A MATSHOBENI: Chairperson, the Constitutional Court last week made a ruling on a matter between the  Bakgatla-Ba-Kgafela Tribal Authority and Chief Nyalala Molefe John Pilane, the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, and the department’s director-general.

 

This was after the traditional council and the department refused to register a communal property association as requested by the community. This was because the government insists on giving more powers to traditional leaders on land in communal areas. What implications will this ruling have on the authority given to chiefs by your government? I thank you.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): House Chairperson, we are very much aware of that judgment. We have it here, and we are studying it. Again, the question is whether the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has a certain policy position.

 

We have indicated that it is not our mandate, that it is the mandate of the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform. He is in the House. I conferred with him a short while ago. He indicated that he would be more than happy to entertain any written questions on this matter at a subsequent question session.

 

Mnu M M DLAMINI: Sihlalo, ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi uyini umsebenzi kaSekela Ngqongqoshe ngoba lo umbuzo wesine abuzwa wona kodwa yena uphendula ngokuthi akanalo igunya lokuphendula. Kanti yini ayiphendulayo la, uzofunani la uma engenalo igunya? [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr M M DLAMINI: Chairperson, I would like to know what the duties of the Deputy Minister are, because this is the fourth question that he is being asked that he says that he cannot respond to because he is not authorised to do so. What is it that he responds to and why is he here if he doesn’t have authority to respond to questions? [Interjection.]]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! I think it is important, also for the Questions Office, to ensure that the questions are directed at the Minister involved, that it falls under the portfolio of that Minister. It is unfortunate that this question was – it was not indicated to the member asking the question that the question should have been directed at the hon Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform so that, and that is the purpose of the question session, we can get a proper response to that. Of course, the hon member involved can still ask the same question to the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform. Hon members ...

Mr K J MILEHAM: Sorry, what about my supplementary?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Do you still want to ask another supplementary and risk the same response?

 

Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, it strikes me that the Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is abrogating his responsibility over traditional leadership to Rural Development and Land Reform and then the Minister thereof.

 

However, in light of the recent judgment by the Eastern Cape High Court confirming the Cala Reserve community’s right to elect their own headman, how will the Minister ensure the democratisation of traditional leadership in order to bring about security of tenure, including the issue of title deeds?

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr A C Nel): Chairperson and hon Mileham, we are not abrogating our responsibility. We understand the Constitution very well. We understand our mandate. We also understand what the strategy is behind this question.

No, hon members, we will not be divided. We will not usurp other departments’ mandates. Sorry, we have been around the political block just one time too many to fall into that trap. [Interjections.] Hon members, we are a nation that is governed by a Constitution that sets out very clear democratic values. [Interjections.] It is also a Constitution that sets out and respects the clear role for traditional leaders. We are in constant engagement with the national and provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders. We have established joint working groups with the national house to explore exactly the role of traditional leadership within a democratic society, within the ambit of democratic local government, what role traditional leaders have to play.

 

As we embark on those discussions, we are also in constant contact with our colleagues in Rural Development and Land Reform who are major stakeholders in that discussion. I hope that answers the question to your satisfaction, hon member. Thank you very much.

 

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

 

NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms B L ABRAHAMS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates the socioeconomic impact of alcohol, drugs and substance abuse in our communities and on local development and the solution thereto.

 

Prof B BOZZOLI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House debates the status and the pace of transformation in the forestry sector.

 

Thank you.

 

Mr K P SITHOLE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

 

That the House debates the continued displacement of hostel residents in Gauteng, some of whom have been living in temporary accommodation for over ten years now, the detrimental effects that this have had on these residents and their families, and the immediate remedies that can be put in place in order to rectify this situation.

 

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

 

That the House debates the implications of the proposed legislation by Cabinet on the face of its purpose of attracting investments by providing a clear and certain investment framework, which is vital for foreign direct investment. Whilst, however the underlying motivation remains more focus on protecting the government sovereign rights rather than the rights of the investors and the potential harm that legislation of this current might cause the foreign direct investment in South Africa. I thank you.

 

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

 

That the House debates the use of private Gupta jets for official state visits.

 

I thank you.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the establishment of a state construction company to reduce the over reliance of tenders and the use of consultants to deal with the R1,5 million urban housing backlog which continue to grow by 178 000 units annually.

 

Mr N E GCWABAZA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates integrated funding of SMMEs to accelerate the creation of 11 million jobs in pursuit of the goals of the National Development Plan 2030. I thank you.

 

Ms Z C FAKU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates ways to mobilise the private sector, and the state-owned enterprises, to support the small business and the co-operative sector, through the creation of incubators and working with enterprises in townships. Thank you Deputy Speaker.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the need for government to stop renting buildings and creates its own accommodation or state buildings.

 

Mr S P MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the need to establish functional and well-resourced rehabilitation centres in each municipality, as a start to deal with the plague of substance abuse especially in the townships amongst the unemployed.

 

Ms C N MAJEKE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

 

That the House debates the escalation of violence in schools, children that are raped and stabbed on their way to schools; the relevant mechanism to foster a sustainable culture of learning, teaching and make education attractive to all stakeholders.

 

Mr A M MUDAU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates empowerment community structures and forums, in order to prevent illegal land invasions.

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House debates the growing persecution and murder of people with albinism in South Africa and the urgent necessity for this government to roll out a national education campaign denouncing the myths relating to albinism in light of the high number of albino related deaths in central Africa and East Africa; and the steps immediately implementable to prevent such atrocities from gaining further traction into South Africa.

 

Thank you.

 

Ms V KETABAHLE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the need for a legislation that will force government departments, in particular hospitals schools and prisons to procure all food consumables from smallholder farmers.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will come to you, hon member, at the back there.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: When, okay.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House debates the issue of the lack of tangible transformation at hostel across the country from leaving quarters designed for single gender, leaving to meet the labour need of big mining companies and other industries, in places that are welcoming and suitable for accommodating family life.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the nationalisation of strategic sectors and the commanding heights of the economy to realise the Freedom Charter as we celebrate 60 years of the Charter.

 

Dr M B KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House debates the implementation of measures of reducing the high bank charges on consumers and businesses. I thank you.

 

Ms A MATSHOBENI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the incapacity of municipalities in addressing the ageing infrastructures as well as the costs of the continual replacement of water infrastructure.

 

Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the alarming trend of theft and damage of infrastructure such as copper cables and pipes; and pumps that have directly cost South Africa more than R265 million, with indirect cost coming close to R5 billion.

 

Mr M N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the need to reclaim the African personality dispossessed by colonialism and apartheid, which led to the tearing apart of the African moral fiber; at the centre of reclaiming process, the need for the expropriation of land and the wealth of this country as real and symbolic representations of the African human dignity. Thank you very much.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before we move any further hon members, I’m told to acknowledge the delegation of a multiparty Amahlathi Local Municipality council led by its Chairperson, the Multiparty Women’s Caucus. Welcome hon guests. [Applause.]

 

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

 

That the House debates the need to move towards a zero waste, as an effective strategy to combat climate change.

HONOURING OF THE LATE DULLAH OMAR BY THE UNIVERSITY OF THE WESTERN CAPE

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr Z M D MANDELA: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

1. welcomes the honouring of the late Dullah Omar by the University of the Western Cape, with which it renamed the Community Law Centre, the Dullah Omar Institute for Constitutional Law, Governance and Human Rights, on Thursday, 20 August 2015;

 

1. recalls that Dullah Omar founded the Community Law Centre in 1990 and the centre was thrust into the centre of the negotiations for a democratic South Africa;

 

1. recognises that Dullah Omar made an inextricable intellectual link between university and community;

 

1. acknowledges that it is therefore fitting to rename the Community Law Centre in recognition of the tremendous contribution Dullah Omar made to the liberation of our country, the development of our Constitution and the transformation of our legal and judicial system; and

 

1. congratulates UWC for the preservation of the legacy of Dullah Omar as well as ensuring that generations and generations to come benefit from the wealth of knowledge that Dullah Omar left behind.

 

The motion is not agreed to.

 

CONGRATULATIONS TO THE NATIONAL STUDENT MOVEMENT ON WINNING THE SRC ELECTIONS AT THE DURBAN UNIVERSITY OF TECHNOLOGY, PIETERMARITZBURG CAMPUS

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

1. notes that the National Student Movement, Nasmo, has won the SRC elections at the Durban University of Technology, DUT, Pietermaritzburg campus in highly contested elections with the South African Students Congress, Sasco;

 

1. also notes that Nasmo is the student wing of the National Freedom Party;

 

1. further notes that by electing Nasmo into the SRC, the students of the DUT have sent a strong signal that they are tired of the corruption and poor leadership, which is prevalent in SRCs controlled by Sasco, and unequivocally expressed their wish for transparent and accountable student governance;

 

1. congratulates the National Student Movement on their victory at the DUT, Pietermaritzburg campus; and

 

1. wishes Nasmo all the best in the upcoming SRC elections at other institutions of higher learning across the country.

 

The motion is not agreed to.

THE QUARTERLY REPORT BY SARS ON THE QUARTERLY TAX REVENUE COLLECTION

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

1. notes the quarterly report by Sars on the quarterly tax revenue collection;

 

1. further notes that Sars missed the quarterly target by more than R2 billion;

 

1. acknowledges that, again it was personal income tax, from badly paid employees who, on top of increasing taxes have to deal with increasing school fees, petrol prices, electricity prices, illegal tolling of national roads and irregular, wasteful and fruitless expenditure that was used to cover the gap, otherwise it would have been worse;

 

1. recognises a need for an urgent legislation, an act of Parliament, to make tax avoidance illegal to collect much needed revenue to fulfil social obligations, as people cannot wait until 2030 for free quality health and education;

 

1. calls for an investigation into why, despite evidence admitted under oath during the Farlam Commission, Lonmin has not paid the R1,2 billion tax diverted to a Shell company in Bermuda, under pretence of marketing commissions; and

 

1. sends a strong warning to all multinational corporations to stop illicit financial flows practices, especially through transfer mispricing.

 

The motion is not agreed to.

 

THE CRASH OF AN AIRCRAFT, CLAIMING THE LIVES OF TWO

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Prof C T MSIMANG: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

1. notes that yesterday, a small aircraft crashed near Winklespruit, south of Durban, claiming the lives of two men;

 

1. further notes that this crash happened as a result of an attempt to make an emergency landing after the engine of the aeroplane failed;

 

1. extends its deepest condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives in the tragic crash;

 

1. acknowledges that the aircraft has been confirmed as one belonging to the Durban Aviation Centre, which is a flight school that student pilots often use to practice; and

 

1. calls for a further investigation into the cause of the crash, as little information is available as to what exactly caused the crash.

 

The motion is not agreed to.

 

MR N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: When you give a ruling, you asked whether there are any objections. You did quite clearly say that there are no objections, after you look around. Now there can’t be an after thought on objections. I asked you to reconsider this matter very, very carefully.

 

CONTRIBUTION BY THE MINING INDUSTRY

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr S MOTAU: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

1. notes that South Africa’s mining industry accounts for about 18% of our nation’s gross domestic product;

 

1. also notes that the industry attracts R1,9 trillion in foreign savings, around 43% of the value of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange;

 

1. further notes that the industry sustains one million jobs;
2. acknowledges the essential role that mining plays in driving and growing our economy;

 

1. also acknowledges the hard work and commitment of the million men and women who work on our nation’s mines;

 

1. further acknowledges the challenges and labour disputes many mine workers have faced over the past few years; and

 

1. thanks our mineworkers for being the bedrock of the industry that is driving our economy.

 

The motion is not agreed to.

 

ERNIE ELS RECEIVES THE 2015 PAYNE STEWART AWARD

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. congratulates South African golf champion Ernie Els who was named the recipient of the 2015 Payne Stewart Award announced last Wednesday, 19 August 2015;

 

1. notes that Mr Els is receiving this award because of his tireless work for autism awareness and research combined with his impeccable record as a golf role model;

 

1. acknowledges that the award serves to carry on the legacy of Payne Stewart by rewarding players who embodied the values of character, charity and sportsmanship and has become a symbol of overall greatness and professional golf and something every player strives to earn;

 

1. further acknowledges that Ernie and his wife Liezl launched the Els for Autism Foundation with the goal of funding the Els Autism Center of Excellence, the first of its kind in the world, which is the reason he is receiving this award; and

 

1. encourages all the great icons of this country to continue on leading by example and shine a light of this country brighter.

 

Motion objected.

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, may I address you, please. The IFP supports the motion and we would like to call for a division. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, that is not provided for in the motions without notice.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker, we welcome the division with both hands. You can ring the bells. We don’t have a problem.

 

SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY GETS NEW CHAIR

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr Z M D MANDELA: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

1. congratulates President Ian Khama for being elected as the Southern African Development Community chair at the 35th summit of heads of states and government held in Gaborone on 17 and 18 August;

 

1. notes that this was after the Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe handed over the one year chairmanship to President Khama;

 

1. further notes that the summit in Gaborone was held under the theme: Accelerating industrialisation of SADC economies through transformation of natural endowment and improved human capital.

 

1. trust that President Khama will successfully lead and assist the region in its aim to achieve development, peace and security and economic growth to alleviate poverty, and enhance the standard and quality of life of the people of Southern Africa; and

 

1. wishes him well in his new position.

 

Motion objected.

EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES STAFF APPLAUDED

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Dr H C VOLMINK: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes the tremendous contribution made to our country by health professionals working in emergency medical services , EMS;

 

1. also notes that many EMS professionals are poorly resourced and have to work under dangerous conditions within broken health systems;
2. calls upon the Minister of Health and all MECs of Health to redouble efforts to ensure that EMS staff are properly supported so that they can carry out their critical duties;

 

1. further calls on the Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services to promptly establish fully functional 112 emergency centres across our country; and
2. recognises the courageous work of the EMS professionals who often put their own lives at risk to save the lives of others.

 

Motion objected.

 

PUBLIC PROTECTOR PUBLISH DAMNING REPORT

 

(Draft resolution)

 

Ms A MATSHOBENI: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes the report of the Public Protector titled Derailed in the matter involving the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa;

 

1. further notes that the report found that Prasa had improperly allocated tenders to the value of R3 billion;

 

1. amongst the beneficiaries of this corruption is the infamous Pule Mabe, a Member of Parliament and the ANC national executive committee, NEC, member;

 

1. acknowledges that the chief architect of all this corruption is another ANC deployee, the disgraced Lucky Montana, who disregarded every little bit of supply chain regulations when awarding contracts and basically treated the passenger rail agency as his personal spaza shop;

 

1. further acknowledges that the report recommends tough actions against Lucky Montana, the implicated board members and officials who were involved in this massive corruption;

 

1. affirms the importance of the role of the Public Protector in ensuring that public officials and politicians are held to account and use public resources in a responsible manner;

 

1. further affirms that the role of the office of the Public Protector must be protected at all times and that the abuse she suffered as a result of an investigation of the Nkandla corruption opens here up to the abuse by the likes of Montana and he has the potential of diminishing the importance of her work in the eyes of the public;

 

1. calls on corrupt ANC people to refrain from hailing insults and casting aspersions on the person and the office of the Public Protector.

 

Motion objected.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENT: Deputy Speaker, the member calls hon Pule Mabe as Pule Mabe. He is an hon member of this Parliament. She must be called to order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon members, you all want to be called hon member, so, do the same to every member of the House.

 

2015 CASUAL DAY

 

(Draft resolution)

 

Mr M REDELINGHUIS: Deputy Speaker, the 60% side shows that it does not appreciate mineworkers or health workers, and I doubt if they will recognise people with disabilities, but I will read the motion, anyway. [Interjection.]

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: On a point of order: Sit down, chief.

 

Mr M REDELINGHUIS: Why?

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: When I address you on a point of order you can’t be on your feet, but must sit down.

 

Mr M REDELINGHUIS: I am waiting for the Deputy Speaker.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, could you please ask him to sit down I am calling a point of order on him.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Talk, hon member, he knows he will sit down.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Yes, we are talking now and you must sit down. The hon member must read a motion without notice without speaking about the EFF and its commitment. He is totally out of order to play like that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your sit. You are out of order. Go ahead, hon member. Please, don’t abuse the point of order system.

 

Mr M REDELINGHUIS: They must object without making speeches.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If you have any political objection, please, don’t abuse the point of order system.

 

Mr N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: In terms of Rule 37, when a member is on his feet speaking, the rest of the House must be quiet [Interjections.] but there is always a noise in the shebeen corner and on my right wing, but you do nothing about it.

 

2015 CASUAL DAY

 

(Draft resolution)

 

Mr M REDELINGHUIS: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes that Spring Day or Casual Day will be on Friday 04 September, and is the campaign that invites all fun-loving South Africans to dress differently for a day to raise funds and raise awareness for persons with disabilities;

 

1. further notes that the campaign consists of 300 participating nongovernmental organisations, NGOs; business; big and small organisations; book clubs;  youth groups; and South Africans citizens at large, and is a true testimony to active citizens democratic action;

 

1. congratulates the campaign on marking its 21st year in existence and raising a record R28 million last year which has supported a wide range of beneficiaries including the National Council for Persons with Physical Disabilities in South Africa, the SA National Council for the Blind, the SA Federation for Mental Health, Autism South Africa, Down Syndrome South Africa, and the SA Disability Alliance;

 

1. urges all South Africans and members of all parties to participate in the campaign by purchasing their stickers for R10 from participating outlets including Edgars, Jet, CNA, Absa, Game, Shoprite and Checkers, and participating NGOs.

 

Motion objected.

 

THANDI KLAASEN TO RECEIVE ICON AWARD

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

MS C N MAJEKE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. nose that one of the few Sophiatown songbirds, Thandi Klaasen, 84, will receive the Icon Award at the Mbokodo Women in the Arts Awards next month;

 

1. further notes that Mama Klaasen pioneeres an all-female quartet, the Quad Sisters and performed with bands like the Gaieties and the Harlem Swingsters;
2. recognises that her career took off when she performed with Miriam Makeba, Dolly Rathebe, Dorothy Masuka and Sophie Mgcina;

 

1. applauds her for her momentous achievement on being awarded the Order of the Baobab in Gold for her contribution to the art of music in 2006;

 

1. congratulates Mama Klaasen for her contribution to the South African music and her Icon Award.

 

MS O MOKAUSE: We object, hon Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

 

RIGHTS OF DOMESTIC WORKERS

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr I M OLLIS: Speaker, there is so much noise; it is hard to let me heard. I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House -

1. notes that there are approximately one million South African women and many are employed as domestic workers in this country;

 

1. notes that the lives of these domestic workers are often hidden from public view and that not enough recognition and appreciation is shown to them;

 

1. acknowledges that in South Africa, domestic worker is more than just a job, it is symbolic of a huge social inequality rooted in our segregated past.

 

1. acknowledges that for generations, women of all races and backgrounds, particularly black and coloured South African women, have cared for other people’s children and homes. Almost always at the expense of their own households and families;

 

1. further acknowledges that domestic workers still work in one of the most difficult sectors and many still do not earn anything close to what we would consider a living wage.

 

1. calls on South Africans to join hands in our bid to uphold the rights of domestic workers and to continue treating these workers with dignity and the respect that they deserve; and

 

1. calls on all political parties to thank domestic workers of this country for the important work that they do.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: The domestic workers know who their two representatives as spokespersons are. [Interjections.] They regularly get their visits from the EFF. They know that the DA are hypocrites of the worst order. So, the EFF objects to this Rule. [Interjections.]

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Can he please stop the preambles to whether they are objecting or not. It is either yes or a no, but the preambles are not necessary.

 

The SPEAKER: You are right, hon member.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point or order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is a point of order?

Ms M O MOKAUSE: We cannot be told by smaller parties in this House ...  [Interjections.] ... on what to say. We are mandated here, Deputy Speaker, by more than 1,1 million people. So, whether we say it in many words or not, but the fact is we object. [Interjections.]

 

The SPEAKER: Order, hon member. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, then, the assumption is that the smaller parties are not mandated by anyone to be here. So, it means we are operating as free agents.

 

Ndiza kubetha wena. [I will beat you.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Do not get involved in that thing, take your seat. [Interjections.]

 

Mnu M M DLAMINI: Angeke Sekela Somlomo, kwaqala kwashaywa abantu besifazane lapha, manje leli lungu lithi lizongishaya “lizangibetha“ [Ubuwelewele.] bese uthi singayingeni le nto. Cha Somlomo akukwazi ukuba njalo. Ilungu leli alihoxise ukuthi lizoshaya elinye ilungu.

 

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hlala phansi lungu elihloniphekile.

Mnu M M DLAMINI: Alihoxise leli lungu ngoba le nto oyishoyo phela thina siyakwazi ukuyenza. Malingakhulumi ngoba libona amakhamera.

 

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Musa ukukwenza lokho hlala phansi lungu elihloniphekile. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

 

[Mr M M DLAMINI: No, Deputy Speaker, they first assaulted women here and now this member says he is going to hit me [Interjections.] and you say we must not get involved in this. No, Deputy Speaker, it cannot be like that. The member here must withdraw that he is going to hit another member.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: The member must withdraw that because what he is saying, we know how to do it. He must not speak because he is in front of cameras.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t do that, take your seat, hon member.]

 

MR M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, on a point of order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, there are members who would like to put across their motions without notice.

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: Uthi uza kumbetha ngengqondo, hayi ngamanqindi. [Kwahlekwa.] [Uwelewele.] [He says he will beat her by thinking, no by boxing.] [Laughter.] [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKERL Hon member, we did not ask for an interpreter, please. Go ahead hon member.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point, hon member?

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: There is a point of order raised against the Chief Whip of the UDM. Can you please make a ruling on that point of order, do not ignore the points of orders we are making. You have not even said what is going to happen. There is a point order that says that he must withdraw his threat with physical violence of a female member of this Parliament. Can you please make a ruling on that because we have raised a point of order and that point of order is within the Rules of this Parliament. Please, make a ruling.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Hon Kwankwa, can you repeat what you said.

 

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Ndithe ndiza kumbetha ngengqondo, hayi ngezandla. [Kwahlekwa.] [Uwelewele.] [I said I will beat her by thinking, not by hands. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, in the event of a problem with that issue, I cannot rule on that matter. In that way there is no problem, otherwise ... [Interjections.] no hold on, just take your seat. Let me finish what I am saying. Take your seat; let me finish what I am saying. The allegations are serious.We will look at Hansard and make a ruling on that matter. If you find that to have happened, we will take action on that matter. Take your seat.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker,...

 

... ibalulekile le ndaba esiyikhulumayo [Ubuwelewele.] ngoba uma uyivumela ukuthi iqhubeke kusho ukuthi angeke usakwazi ukuyivimba. Ilungu lisho lapha, nawe ukuzwile lokho. Le nto yokuthi awuzwanga ayikho [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[... the matter that we are dealing with is very important [Interjections.], if you allow it to continue you are not going to be able to control it. A member said it here, and you also heard it. You can’t say that you did not hear it. [Interjections.]]

 

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Speaker, can we save each other’s time.

 

Mhlekazi wam ... [Sir ...]

 

... sit down, it was meant as joke; I am withdrawing it. Can we move on please.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Don’t give me instructions here; who are you after all. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat the matter is done.

 

Mr N SINGH: Chair, thank you very much for recognising me. I rise on a point of order; and I am rising for you to make a ruling in terms of the Rules of this House and the Constitution of this country to recognise that any member of this House has the right to hear and be heard and express himself or herself in any manner whatsoever. Nobody has a right to deny that right of that individual.  So, when my Whip stood up and made a point of order for you to make a ruling, Chair, she was within her rights in terms of the Rules and the Constitution. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no debate about that, absolutely.

 

Ms D Z RANTHO: Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the motion the domestic workers raised by the DA. [Applause.]

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Can I rise for my motion now?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Can you make a reflection on what the hon member has just said? He was You have ruled on the motion that has been objected. Now I don’t know why you entertain a very irresponsible statement made by the member. Can you please rule on that? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no. Take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon members, you know that when motions have been objected to, they don’t pass. What’s the problem? [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: But you are entertaining it.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, there is a process which we are engaged in here ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are interrupting it.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: That action ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you are interrupting it, hon member. I am about to follow it. I plead with you to take your seat.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Yes, you must address that member who is being frivolous in terms of what we are busy with. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, in fact...

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: We don’t want playful games here.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you please take your seat. Take your seat, hon member.

 

BUSINESS PARTRNERS COMPANY FUNDS WOMEN ENTREPRENEURS

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, On behalf of the IFP I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

1. notes that a company called Business Partners has announced a new fund of R250 million for women entrepreneurs during its annual Women’s Month Seminar held in Cape Town recently;

 

1. further notes that while women make up 52% of the population, only 6,2% of women are in entrepreneurial position and only 4% of listed companies on the JSE have female chief executive officers;

 

1. acknowlwdges that the fund will offer finance between the value of R500 000 and R50 million per investment, over a five-year-financial period;

 

1. further acknowledges that the fund seeks to afford South African women a fair and equal opportunity to start, expand or purchase an existing business; and

 

1. conveys its gratitude to Business Partners for this laudable initiative which will serve to empower many women in years to come, and calls on big business to take note of this project and to initiative similar projects where possible.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, we object.

 

UNIVERSITY OF ZULULAND CHOIR TOURS AMERICAN STATES

 

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the NFP I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes that the accomplished University of Zululand, Unizulu Choir is getting ready to take on the world, with 15 members of the choir set to tour America next month, departing from South Africa on the third of September;

 

1. also notes that the 20-day-tour, which will see the choir touring various American states, will culminate in the choir performing at the White House on September 20, where it is expected that President Barrack Obama will be in attendance during that performance;

 

1. further notes that the tour came about as a result of the University of Zululand’s partnership with Appalachian State University based in North Caroline and which partnership has been ongoing for the past 20 years, resulting in several crosscultural exchanges between the two Universities;
2. finally notes that the choir which is being led by Choirmaster Bhekani Buthelezi, who holds a Master’s degree in choir conducting, would get a chance to take master classes with lecturers of the Appalachian University, who have worked with the likes of Hugh Masekela and Abdullah Ibrahim, amongst others;

 

1. wishes choirmaster Bhekani Buthelezi and the choristers of the University of Zululand choir a safe and fruitful journey to the USA; and

 

1. urges them to be good ambassadors for our country whilst they are abroad.

 

Mr T E MULAUDZI: We wish them well but the EFF objects.

 

SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION BY FARM WORKERS IN AGRICTURAL SECTOR

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Prof B BOZZOLI: Deputy Chair, on behalf of the DA I hereby move without notice:

 

That this House –

 

1. notes the important contribution that our country’s farm workers make to our Agricultural sector and the economy at large;

 

1. also notes that farm workers are often exploited and that the plight of farm workers is often ignored;

 

1. acknowledges that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Foundation for Human Rights have launched the Farm worker and Farm dweller Rights National strategic engagement;

 

1. also acknowledges that this programme will be rolled out across all nine provinces to ensure that farm workers are aware of their rights as enshrined in the constitution;

 

1. remains committed to fighting for the protection of farm worker’s rights;

 

1. thanks the Foundation for Human Rights for their initiative and relentless fight in ensuring that all farm workers are made aware of their rights;

 

1. also thanks the countless men and women who work on our nation’s farms as their efforts contributes to our stable food security;

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Hon Speaker, we object the motion because it’s pure hypocrisy. [Interjections.] We object.

 

CONGRATULATIONS TO A 57-YEAR-OLD MZIKAZI NTEYI FOR HER OUTSTANDING WORK IN EASTERN CAPE

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M L W FILTANE: I move without notice on behalf of the UDM:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes the outstanding work done by a 57-year-old Mzikazi Nteyi in improving the health situation of our poor citizens in Great Kie, Amahlathi and Peddie Municipalities in the Eastern Cape;

 

1. further notes that her unwavering commitment to serve the people, has not gone unnoticed by society;

 

1. recognises that if our Public Service were to emulate her, our people could be guarantee a better life; and

 

1. further commends and congratulates her outstanding commitment and achievements.

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: EFF objects.

 

PIRATES FOR QUALIFYING IN THE CAF CONFEDERATION CUP

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms D Z RANTHO: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

 

That the House -

 

1. notes that Orlando Pirates has beaten Congo’s AC Leopards 2-0 on Saturday night, 22 August 2015;

 

1. further notes that the mighty Buccaneers have booked their place in the semi-finals of the Caf Confederation Cup for the first time in the club’s history;

 

1. congratulates Pirates for brilliant football and an excellent display of skills during this match;

 

1. believes that with the kind of spirit, motivation and discipline the Buccaneers will no doubt bring the trophy home;

 

1. wishes them more success in the remaining games; and

 

1. calls all sport loving South Africans to rally behind Orlando Pirates. Amabhakabhaka!

 

Dr H CHEWANE: We congratulate and we wish Amabhakabhaka well, but we object.

 

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the IFP:

 

That this House –

 

1. notes that the South African athlete, Wayde van Niekerk has won a gold medal a short while ago in the men’s 400 metres at the World Athletics Championships in Beijing;

 

1. further notes that the 23 year-old Van Niekerk made waves in world athletics when he ran the 200 metres in under 20 seconds at the European Athletics Classic meeting in Switzerland;

 

1. acknowledges that the Cape Town- born Van Niekerk made his debut at the 2010 World Championships and has since gone from strength to strength;

 

1. congratulates Van Niekerk on his great achievement and for being an exceptional young South African ambassador; and

 

1. wishes him well, much success and many more gold medals in his career ahead.

 

I so move!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: We object. Thank you!

 

Ms D Z RANTHO: Deputy Speaker, the ANC moves without notice:

 

That the House -

 

1. congratulates the newly elected chair of the SADC organ on politics, defence, and security cooperation, President Filipe Jucinto Nyusi of the Republic of Mozambique at a SADC summit, held in Gaborone on 17-18 August 2015;

 

1. notes that  this is after  President Jacob Zuma handed over the position of chair of the SADC organ on politics, defence and security cooperation to the Republic of Mozambique;

 

1. further notes that  South Africa took over the one-year tenure of the position from the Republic of Namibia in August 2014, at the last Southern African Development Community summit held in Zimbabwe last year;

 

1. trusts that the new President will provides effective leadership in addressing threats facing our regional stability such as the risks of natural disasters, poverty, underdevelopment, insecurity and instability; and

 

1. wishes President Nyusi of the Republic of Mozambique a success  in his new position.

 

I so move!

 

Mr N S MATIASE: We wish Frelimo well, however we object!

 

Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the NFP:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes that a fire broke out in the boarding house at the Leeudoringstad School for the Deaf in the early hours of Monday 24 August 2015 whilst the residents were sleeping; and

 

1. also notes that three children died of smoke inhalation; and

 

1. finally notes that 13 children are receiving medical treatment as a result of the fire .

 

1. calls upon this hon House to convey its heartfelt condolences to the family and loved ones of the three children who died during the fire;

 

1. wish the thirteen children who were injured a speedy recovery; and

 

1. hopes that all South Africans with a spirit of ubuntu would not reject this motion.

 

I so move!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: We object. Thank you!

Mr T W MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF to move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes report by Statistician-General, on the second quarter, of 1,3% GDP decline;

 

1. further notes that the President misled the nation two weeks ago when he called a press conference to pronounce the improvement on the economic growth;

 

1. acknowledges all the evidence before us, which clearly shows that South African economy is in much deeper crisis than what the government would like to admit and it has been the case for a while now;

 

1. also acknowledges that the crisis in the mining sector will continue to deepen as multinational corporations continue to close mines and cut jobs to save profit margins;

 

1. further acknowledges that it is estimated that more than 200 000 jobs will be lost in the mining sector in the next three years;

 

1. further notes that the attempt by government to negotiate with steel industry stakeholders has failed dismally, and more than 50 000 jobs will be lost immediately;

 

1. calls for an increased public sector investment in manufacturing of durable and nondurable goods, to stimulate domestic manufacturing;

 

1. further calls on government not to downplay the impact, the crisis, in the mining sector and dreadful economic situation, especially its consequence on downstream businesses and mining communities, and respond accordingly.

 

I so move!

 

Mr Z M D MANDELA: The ANC objects!

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes recent news reports that MaNtuli, one of the many wives of President Zuma, the President of the ANC, was kicked out of her family homestead by none other than the Minister of State Security, David Mahlobo. Yes, he who was at the forefront of jamming signals here in Parliament to protect Mr Zuma;

 

1. further notes that MaNtuli was chased out of Nkandla, together with her kids, by Minister Mahlobo after allegations of poisoning her husband, the President of the ANC, Mr Zuma;

 

1. acknowledges that this action by Minister Mahlobo is indicative of a culture of impunity that permeates ANC thinking in general and the Zuma administration in particular.

 

1. recognises that if a woman, a wife and a mother could be easily chased into the streets without any regards for her rights as a wife, by a man who did not marry her, and who has no relations to her, is an indication of a country that has sunk to despicable levels of women abuse;

 

1. further acknowledges that President Zuma, by his noninterference on the matter, is complicit to the abuse of MaNtuli by Mahlobo, that he actually did not have the balls himself to talk to MaNtuli, but rather sent his ever-ready Minister of State Security to interfere in matters that should be discussed in the bedroom between Mr Zuma and his wives;

 

1. condemns the abuse of women by those in positions of authority who think it is their rights to abuse women; and

 

1. further calls on President Zuma to be a man and go talk to his wife and children, and bring them home.

I so move!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, before I proceed, in terms of our agreed guidelines for Motions Without Notice which have been adopted as Sessional Orders by the House, a motion requiring a decision of the House must comply with the Constitution, the laws, the rules, particularly the Rules of Debate. The rules governing unparliamentary language are broadly framed in order to allow much freedom of speech for hon members as possible. However, a well established practice also dictates that any statement or remark that impairs a member’s dignity or afrowns the person’s honour must place a cap on freedom of speech. The remarks contained in this Motion Without Notice may be regarded as offensive as it is unparliamentary for a member to suggest in a manner - which is being done here - that another member lacks courage. [Interjections.]

 

It is further affirmly established practice that a member who wishes to impute improper unworthy motives to another member of the House, including members of the executive, must do so by a way of a substantive motion supported by a prima facie. This motion is therefore out of order and will not be put to the House. [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But, Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you standing on hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is a principle matter which the EFF is raising about a President who uses a Minister of spies to chase his wife away ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member! Hon member! No, don’t do that! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: That is pure abuse and there is nothing wrong with the EFF saying that! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The content of the language used in that motion ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is nothing wrong about that language in the House! Are you scared that the House is going to support that motion? Put it to the House, please! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Point of order!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member!

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, firstly you have made a ruling which must be abided to by all members, including somebody who calls himself a Chief Whip of this House. [Interjections.]

 

Secondly, as I recall, you have to rise on a point of order which this hon member has failed to do. Thank you. 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, ... [Interjections.] ... I have dealt with this matter. I have made a ruling and it is not going to be changed. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, we disagree with that ruling. I was not allowed ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Wait! Hon Shivambu! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: [Inaudible.] ... you are going to follow procedure. That motion must be put here! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I name you! Hon Shivambu, I name you, and as a result of that sir, I expect you to live the House. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Aauw? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes! [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: For what? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have told you repeatedly to keep quiet and you are refusing to do so. Moreover, I had told you not to proceed after the ruling I had made. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But leave the House for what? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who gave you the right to speak as you are speaking there? [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, but leave the House for what? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who authorized you to speak, hon Shivambu? [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, that Deputy Minister there has been shouting, “Point of order! Point of order!” while I was on the floor. [Interjections.] I was calling for your attention: Why am I leaving the House for. Which rule have I violated? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I have made a ruling. If you refuse to obey that is fine, you can take your seat. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Sure!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If you refuse, we will follow this up immediately. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes! What is your point of order, hon member?

 

Mr M S MBATHA: My point of order, Deputy Speaker is: We have been told by you repeatedly that when a member has raised a point of order and is still standing, the other member cannot raise a point of order, still stand and still talk! [Interjections.] Now, hon Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Minister there stood and shouted repeatedly while the member was on the floor. You did not say a word about that! I am asking you, Deputy Speaker, to name her too ... [Interjections.] ... because she was reckless in shouting the way she shouted!

 

[Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat! [Interjections.] Take your seat, hon member! [Interjections.] Hon members, I have a ruling on this matter ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member!

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, with regard to the motion that we have tabled in this House, we do not agree with your ruling as the EFF. [Interjections.] We are fighting abuse of women and children, irrespective of their political affiliation, race ... [Interjections.] So, we object to your ruling! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot continue to argue a matter that I have ruled. [Interjections.]

Ms O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, only because the matter involves the President of this country – the man who gave you a job – the man who puts bread on your table! [Interjections.] Now, you want to come and tell us that the motion cannot be before the House! [Interjections.] The man abused the woman! [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order! [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: I want to address that issue. You maim our Chief Whip when that Deputy Minister spoke without being recognised by you and you did not do anything about that ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: You can’t be selective in your ruling, please!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, don’t do that. Don’t even try that. Hon members ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr S P MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order,

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mhlongo, yes!

 

Mr S P MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, with due respect, I think it will be very wrong for this House, when the things that talks to the conduct of our President affecting women, women of this country. There is a woman who is outside of ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mhlongo, you can’t be addressing that matter. I’m talking about the Rules, about the language in the motions that you have put across. I am not talking about your entire motion. I’m talking about the contents and the language that has been used in that motion. [Interjections.] Take your seat

 

Mr S P MHLONGO: If you respect that women must be protected, irrespective of who has conducted or committed that thing ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

 

Mr S P MHLONGO: ... that would be good.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, we want to proceed. Yes.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, I’m expecting you to make a ruling. I raised a point of order ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no! You can’t ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Why not?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... you can’t make a decision yourself ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: ... I’m not making a decision I’m asking you ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... no, no, no, no!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: ... but I’m asking you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: no, no, no! Can you take a seat, please! ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: ... before I take a seat but I’m asking you. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have requested you to take your seat. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: So, I’m not allowed to speak to you now?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, you are no longer allowed to speak to me now. You can take your seat now. Thank you very much. You have expressed your view ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: What should I do because the work of Parliament allows me to speak, what should I do now?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take you seat!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: ... if I’m not allowed to speak in this Parliament? ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, take your seat.

Mr M M DLAMINI: But I did not come here to seat. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. You have expressed yourself. Take your seat.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: but, can you please make a ruling on that issue. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, are there any further motions without notice?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, we are not going there, hon member.

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, can you please recognise me?

 

Ms P T VAN DAMME: I’m standing here to read a motion, can you sit down?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She rose to read a motion there, can you take a seat please?

 

Ms P T VAN DAMME: We have got work to do here.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat hon member, please? Go ahead, hon member.

 

Ms P T VAN DAMME: I hereby move without notice:

 

That the House —

 

1. Notes on 21 of August 2015, 48 South African firefighters returned home after fighting fires in Canada for a month;

 

1. also notes that the 48 men and women were part of the Working on Fire Programme;

 

1. further notes that the Working on Fire Programme is a government initiative that was launched 12 years ago to lift disadvantaged people out of poverty and train them in firefighting;

 

1. acknowledges that the team was in Northern Alberta, Canada, to assist with fighting fires raging in Canada;

 

1. also acknowledges that our team worked alongside volunteer firefighters from Mexico, USA, Australia and New Zealand;

 

1. further acknowledges the bravery and dedication of all firefighters in South Africa;

 

1. thanks these brave men and women who selflessly put themselves in harm’s way to protect and serve.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If there are no objections, I put the motion.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Speaker, which country are you from, Shorty? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: We object the motion.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Withdraw what you just said! Withdraw what you just called the hon member! Do it now!

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I withdraw, Shorty. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s contempt for the Chair and the House. Absolute contempt for the Chair and the House. Withdraw, unconditionally!

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I withdraw.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

 

Mr M WATERS: I also put it to you that the hon member from the EFF cast aspersions on where the hon van Damme is actually from. She said which county are you from? And that’s also got xenophobic connotations to it. [Interjections.] Yes it does, because that’s how it all starts, quite frankly. And I would like you to ask her to withdraw that as well. It’s nothing to do where a person is from in this House. Nothing at all. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

 

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: If I may before you make your ruling, Sir ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: ... if I may address you before you make your ruling, I would like to point out that that same member has been sitting and making foul hand signals to our hon member and repeating the same words you have just asked her to withdraw. Thank you.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, thank you. Yes hon member.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on point of order. I don’t why do you allow an hon member to speak without being recognised. And once again you fail to maim her. On what basis do you allow her to speak now? I thought you are consistent in your application of Rules of this House. But, I beg to differ with you. I am rising here to defend the member of the EFF who stood up and apologised on a question that she made about the whereabouts and the origin of the member and she has duly withdrawn the remarks. That’s what we wanted to ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we’ve just read out ... [Interjections.]

 

Ms N R MOKOTO: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s the point of order?

 

Ms N R MOKOTO: I want to make a proposal based on the utterances which some of the members have stated throughout the course of the sitting today. I want to propose that whilst you are looking at Hansard, you must check all the utterances that have been made, especially by the members of the EFF which are derogatory and not even parliamentary. So I want you to refer to those issues.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, thanks. Yes, hon member.

 

Dr M MOTSHEKGA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I’m just wondering, whether, in the light of what is happening in this House, we have not made an absurd Rule which says that all motions which are objected to in this House cannot stand because this is actually a usurpation of the role of the Chief Whips’ Forum. These motions must be cleared in the Chief Whips’ Forum and not in this House.

 

So, I propose that this Rule that we are applying is making Parliament ungovernable and therefore it must be referred to the Rules committee because we cannot proceed on this basis. Otherwise, this House is going to be a laughing stock and there will be no purpose in sitting in a House like that.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I just wish to remind you with regard to the last point that the member is making. The matter is already receiving attention in the subcommittee of the Rules. So it is going to be attended to.

 

Hon members, we have received a withdrawal here. We are going to study the Hansard so that in considering all the matters that have been raised here, we deal with them. We have said so before that having ruled about offensive language, there is no basis for us to continue to do it. There has to be a time when we arrive at a rational and reasonable acceptance of decency in dealing with each other here. I think it is inappropriate for us to continue to expect to be told how to speak and what language to use and how we must use it. That can’t be appropriate for people like us who are public representatives.

 

Hon Shivhambu, I’m not going to recognise you because I have maimed you and you are not supposed to be in the House, but in your office. So you will not speak, Sir, with respect.

 

OUTCOMES OF THE INQUIRY OF THE STUDENTS BODY AT VAAL UNIVERSITY OF TECHNOLOGY

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

1. notes the outcome of the independent inquiry conducted by the Vaal University of Technology on the allegations placed here before this House and to the university by an ANC-led organisation called Vaal University of Technology SA Students Congress VUTSasco;

 

1. notes that the independent inquiry has completed its job and has actually established that there were no valid accusations in the allegations that were placed in the student representative council;

 

1. further notes that the matter was later opportunistically raised in Parliament by the ANC, clearly indicated collusion between Sasco and the ANC in the smear campaign conducted against the EFF leadership in the VUT campus;

 

1. acknowledges that the EFF has been exonerated and once again proven that we are much bigger and much higher than the ANC in its tricks in an effort to gain power at VUT, and it is also clear that the Minister in this instance took issue with it without even verifying it;

 

1. further acknowledges the work of the independent body that found out that these claims were without any basis and once more prove that there was interference in the governance of VUT by the ANC government.

 

1. calls in the Minister of Higher Education, the struggle icon, Blade Nzimande not to interfere with the governance of the universities and make sure that student politics is outside his window as a Minister.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If there are no objections, I put the motion. Okay, motion falls away.

 

TUBATSE RESIDENTS HANDED MEMORANDUM TO MODIKWA PLATINUM MINE

(Draft Resolution)

 

Ms V KHETHABAHLE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House -

 

1. notes the march led by the commander in chief of the EFF, the president of South Africa in waiting, Julius Malema, on 21 August together with the residents of Tubatse to the Modikwa Platinum Mine to deliver a memorandum of grievances;

 

1. further notes that this march was attended by over 20 000 people and was a response to the cries expressed by the people of Tubatse that the mines were ignoring socioeconomic development on areas in and around these mines, and to highlight the importance of mines being held responsible for socioeconomic development, which they are bound to pay much attention to according to their licence requirements, and to highlight the plight of communities in mining towns who are often neglected by the mining houses;

 

1. acknowledges that the Modikwa Platinum Mine is owned by none other than Patrice Motsepe, a well renowned financier of the ruling party, and that this highlight that people who are closer to the ANC can, firstly, get as many economic opportunities as possible, and secondly, they have no regard for the wellbeing of the people in and around areas where they make money;

 

1. further acknowledges that on 17 August, during the preparation for this march, communities in Greater Tubatse Municipality peacefully gathered a few kilometers away from the Chromax Mine to discuss their planned march to the local mines, including Modikwa Platinum Mine, but to our dismay, the security officer attached to Chromax Mine by the surname of Mashabela shot our people with live ammunition and two of the community members were wounded and admitted to the hospital. One of the community leaders is currently arrested, and we view this as an attempt by the ANC and the mines in Tubatse to frustrate and divide our people so that ultimately their issues are not attended to; and

 

1. calls on the mining bosses to get their act together and support development in communities where their businesses are located before it is too late.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If there are no objections, I put the motion. Okay, motion falls away.

 

MORE POLICE KILLINS

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

Mr Z MBHELE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

 

That the House –

 

1. notes that police officers have one of the most dangerous jobs in our country;

 

1. further notes that statistics show that in the 2014-15 financial year, 35 on duty and 51 off duty police officers have been killed;

 

1. acknowledges that these numbers are unacceptable high and that every murder of a police officer is the tragic loss to a family and our country;

 

1. thanks the thousands of devoted brave men and women of the SA Police Service who risk their own lives to protect and save others. [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If there are no objections, I put the motion.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: We are objecting, Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Motion falls away. Any further motions without notice. None.

 

Mr J MTHEMBU: Deputy Speaker, if you allow us, we know that our Rules do not make provision for what we are going to do, but we want to say it in all honesty as the ANC, and we want to put it on record, that we support the motion. [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, it’s not in the Rules. You are correct. Like the preambles and so on that are done in the House ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Point of order!

 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: All I am asking from you is that, can you be consistent with your ruling? The members of the ANC come here and talk things that don’t make sense, and you don’t say anything to them. He is not allowed to talk and you don’t say anything to them, but with us you just say, hon member, sit down. It can’t work like that. I am still talking.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, it can’t. I am still talking to you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I gave the hon member a chance to speak. What are you objecting about it?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Yes, but, why did you give him a chance to speak?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry!

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Mathole spoke for about five minutes here, and he was addressing you and your party. Now I am speaking and you don’t even allow me to finish.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon Mathole, before you go to their party he spoke for about five minutes and you were quite.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I gave him a ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: No, you didn’t, you just pointing to hon ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon, you are ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Don’t do this, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no! There is no basis in your accusations, and I suggest you take your seat. Thank you very much.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: You see, that’s all what you do.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: But, order, Deputy Speaker!

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order?

 

Dr H CHEWANE: This is the third time that an ANC member stands to abuse the platform. It started with an hon member who was sitting there. Now, the second one was hon Mathole. This is the third hon member of this Parliament to stand up and abuse the same platform

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let me point out to you ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: If you had made a ruling before, we would not be having this type of a situation.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me give you an example ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: But you are very lenient when you deal with the hon member from the other side. Our hon Chief Whip stood and then you were quick to tell him that he must move out of the House.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?

 

Dr H CHEWANE: I think you should be very fair in application of your rulings, hon Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, he has been speaking about matters that you should indicate your objection or otherwise. I didn’t stop you from doing that. You have been doing that. It was members of the House who raised objections to that. I never said to you, stop it, okay. You have been doing that. You were speaking on matters which you should simply indicate your objection or otherwise. Now, you want me to stop people who I have recognised to speak on the grounds that they speak what you don’t like. Really, this is not fair. It’s not fair.

 

Hon members, in the absence of any further notices without motion, the Secretary will read the First Order.

 

Mr B L MASHILE: Deputy Speaker, the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs considered the report of the panel headed by the Chief Justice on 19 August 2015 for purposes of filling the vacancy created in the Independent Electoral Commission by the resignation of Commissioner Raenette Taljaard.

 

I want to take this opportunity to thank Raenette Taljaard for the contribution she made during her tenure as the commissioner in the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC. Members will remember that this panel referred to, is established by the Electoral Commission Act to be responsible for the advertising, short listing and interviews and finally making recommendations to the National Assembly. The report we considered as referred earlier, is a product of this process.

 

Deputy Speaker, know that when appointment to the Independent Electoral Commission is made, the constitutional requirement that the race and gender must be broadly reflected should be considered. This is contained in section 193(2) of the Constitution. At the present moment, only four vacancies are filled out of five positions and all four are black males.

 

In considering the panel’s report, the requirement of section 193(2) of the Constitution came to the fore and attracted our attention. The committee then noted that we need to make the commission compliant with the Constitution. It was evident that these appointments should be used to address race and gender simultaneously. After this consideration, the committee realised that the recommended names had only one name that will fit the constitutional lacuna. The committee then felt in its wisdom that one name does not provide adequate choice to make a considered recommendation. The committee therefore resolved to appreciate the men and women who were recommended, their outstanding qualifications, experiences and the willingness to serve.

 

Owing to the constitutional requirement, the committee then could not be able to make a recommendation to the House for purpose of filling this vacancy. The committee then resolved to recommend to the House that the President reinitiate the process. The committee agreed that there is neither the need for a debate nor any declaration on this matter, because all of us are in one voice that we don’t really have enough names to consider for recommendation.

 

I therefore put the report to this House for consideration and report. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move that the report be adopted.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, do you recognise me, before you name me? The EFF rises to ask for a declaration and also later to call for a division of the House.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it has been drawn to my attention and a request for declarations of vote has been received. We will now allow up to three minutes per one member of each political party wishing to make a declaration an opportunity to do so. Who wants to start?

 

Declaration of vote

Mr N PAULSEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, on 24 June 2015, the Chief Justice sent to Parliament a letter containing a list of eight candidates and their shortened Curricula Vitae in terms of section 6(4) of the Electoral Commission Act of 1996 and requested the National Assembly to recommend a candidate to the President of the Republic for appointment to the Independent Electoral Commission. This was after a panel comprising the Chief Justice, the Chairperson of the Human Rights Commission, the Chairperson of the Gender Equality Commission and the Public Protector had satisfied themselves that anyone of those they included in the shortlist could be a commissioner of our own Independent Electoral Commission. The individuals who made up that panel are reputable members of society, whose integrity is beyond reproach and whose commitment to both gender and racial equality transcends political party confines.

 

We trust them, but we do not trust the ANC. The ANC rejects these names not because of the commitment to race and gender equality. They do so because they are worried that the list submitted by the Chief Justice does not include the cadres who will be willing to endanger our democracy by rigging elections when our people vote for the EFF next year and in 2019 when you will be joining the DA on this side of the House. [Interjections.] How can our society trust a few individuals of questionable character such as the members of the ANC over people of upright character as our Chief Justice and those who worked with him on this issue?

 

We urge Jacob Zuma to use the very little morals he has to reject the recommendation of this committee to reinitiate the process and accept the laws as submitted by the panel led by the Chief Justice. We reject this committee’s report as the EFF. Thank you very much.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat, please. Take your seat.

 

Mr Z M D MANDELA: I rise on a point of order that the hon member has just referred to the President as Jacob Zuma. Can he withdraw that and address him properly? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you know that you are supposed to address the House properly. Let’s please be in line. Yes, hon member.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker,

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we proceed, hon member? Allow the member to speak, please.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: There is no basis for you to sustain the point of order because Jacob Zuma is not a member of this Parliament.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. You see what you are doing now? You don’t know what you are talking about. The Rules of the House apply to the President when he is here. Go ahead, hon member.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you? After hon Paulsen left the podium to move back to his seat, he gave the members of the DA a rude gesture, a middle finger. Oh, it was to you, sorry. The middle finger was to you and I believe that is unparliamentary.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, could you do that? [Interjections.]

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: No Speaker, I will show you what I did. I walked past there and I did this to my hair ... [Interjections.] ... and I see nothing wrong with that. No, no, Deputy Speaker, you mustn’t listen to the right wing. They look for trouble all the time. They are bullying you. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please, your language is not okay. You can’t ...

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: I’m telling you, Speaker, I didn’t do that. [Interjections.] The right wing is trying to bully you, Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, stop talking about me, I am talking about what you did here.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: No Speaker, I’m telling you that I didn’t do it, but you are choosing their word over mine.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I’m asking you, I’m not choosing anybody’s side.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: I am telling you that I didn’t do it. I didn’t. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, you’ve just done that. Withdraw that.

Mr N M PAULSEN: No, I didn’t do it.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I’ve just seen you doing it now in front of my eyes.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: I did this. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t. You are not allowed to do that.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: Okay, then I withdraw that, Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I can’t believe that you want to continue to be told not to do simple things like those, hon member!

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker, don’t abuse us man. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.

 

Mr N M PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, you’ve got power. You must deal with these people; they are bullying you.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker,

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivhambu, I told you that you can’t speak.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: No, Deputy Speaker. Under which Rule am I not allowed to speak here? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you can’t speak, you can’t.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: But don’t abuse our members, Deputy Speaker. You cannot do that. Allow these two people to say this to people of this Parliament.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER; Hon member, you can’t speak. Take your seat, please.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: I’m speaking. I can speak here.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you take your seats, please? Yes, hon member at the back.

 

Ms E R WILSON: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there is a member speaking at the back. No, man, no, man, wait. Can you guys please ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: We are hon members; we are not your guys.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, act like an hon member. You are not acting like an hon member. Take your seat, hon member. Please man. [Applause.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: We are not your guys. We are not your guys! [Applause.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I agree.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: No, we are not your guys. Don’t talk to us like that.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I agree, I will not call you a guy, but please take your seat. I will not. [Interjections.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: I rose before that member.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seats, hon members. No, take your seat, hon member. Yes, hon member, proceed and talk there.

 

Mr Z M D MANDELA: I rise on a point of order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a member standing there and speaking.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: No, Deputy Speaker, that will not happen. No.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon member.

 

Ms E R WILSON: Deputy Speaker, with all due respect, there are at least 20 of us, who were witnesses to that gesture by the hon Paulsen and there are 20 available affidavits. [Inaudible.] He has not withdrawn and that is obscene and unparliamentary.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order?

 

Dr H CHEWANE: You have given hon Paulsen a chance to withdraw whatever was mentioned that he had done. Hon Paulsen took the platform and withdrew. You are supposed to move on with the business of the plenary.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because you are saying so.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: We cannot continue to dwell on an issue that hon Paulsen has withdrawn.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no, no, no. Members rise to raise points of order. Let me decide whether I agree with them or not.

 

Dr H CHEWANE: The precedence that you have set is that once an hon member withdraws, then we move on with the business.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon member.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Hon Deputy Speaker, may I address you please? Hon Deputy Speaker, I don’t know what the people of this country are thinking about us as members of this august House because hon Shivhambu said to you the “V-word”. I don’t want to pronounce that because is not in my nature to pronounce it. This, Deputy Speaker, is really bad because we are degrading this House; we are dragging this House to the lowest as hon members. The people of this country, who voted for us, expect us to act in an honourable manner, but what we are doing and what we’ve been experiencing since we started with the sitting is unparliamentary and uncalled for. Thank you.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: I rise on a point of order.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: The Chief Whip of the EFF did not use any “V-word”. So we must not allow people to say things that are not there. You must check Hansard before we do anything. People must not say things that are not here.

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what are you rising?

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, as the hon Wilson said we have at least 20 members who are prepared to do affidavits to state that the hon Paulsen did do the gesture. But you know the contradiction here, a few minutes ago the EFF accused the President and I quote “not having balls”. Their own members do not have balls to admit what they have done in this House. [Applause.]

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what are you rising on?

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, if it does help, as the hon Wilson said, we have at least 20 members who are prepared to do affidavits to state that the hon Paulsen did do the gesture.

 

But do you know what? Do you know what the contradiction is here? A few minutes ago the EFF accused the President – and I quote – of not having balls. Their own members don’t have the balls to admit to what they did in this House. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

Ms O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: What you did to us in the past, do it also to the white man. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Let him withdraw.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Listen, hon member!

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: We cannot live under the threat of the DA and the ANC in this House. They stand up as they wish whenever they want to do that, and then they want to instruct us to sit down. They want to instruct us to withdraw the statements that we are making. But you don’t do it to them. Do it to them! Do it to the white man, hon Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

 

An HON MEMBER: A point of order, Deputy Speaker ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I want to point out that what you said and the way that you said it is a serious infringement of the Rules of order in the House. I want to suggest to you that your behaviour and the language you are using are out of order. We have told you that you must not do it, hon Waters. The language that you have used yourself – repeating it after I have pointed out that it is offensive – is out of order, and I would like you to withdraw it, sir, with respect.

 

Mr M WATERS: I withdraw, Deputy Speaker.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Hon members, I don’t want to ...

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Speaker, may I address you? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member ...

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: We are called names by the DA here, not on Hansard. [Interjections.] But we never scream and we never cry ...

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: Because we are not cry babies. They must man up and they must know that we are in Parliament here. [Interjections.] We came here to debate issues and we came here to stand up. [Interjections.] So we cannot be bullied and be told that others are 20 in the House and we are five. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mokause, you are defying me, madam! [Interjections.]

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: We are a big organisation. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are defying me, and I told you that you can’t address another member as “a white man”. [Interjections.] Can you withdraw that? [Interjections.] Withdraw it, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon Mokause, stand up and withdraw the reference to hon Waters as “that white man”. [Interjections.] Just withdraw it.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: But, Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you take your seat? I am requesting her to withdraw. [Interjections.]

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Can you recognise me afterwards?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t speak here on her behalf, please, hon member.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Can you recognise me afterwards, please? I am begging you, Deputy Speaker, please. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mokause, please withdraw referring to another member as “that white man”.

 

Ms O MOKAUSE: I withdraw.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Motlatsammusakgotla o rile re seke ra bua re sa emisa matsogo, kgale ke emisitse letsogo, ga o ntshupe ga ke itse gore ke goring ka ke batla go go thusa. [Tsenoganong.] (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, you have said that in order for us to be recognised, we must raise our hands.I have been raising my hand and you are not recognising me. I don’t know why; I want to help you. [Interjections.]]

 

MOTLATSA SEPIKARA: Leloko le hlomphehang, ha ke eso kope thuso ho wena ntate. Ke tla e kopa ka  tsatsi le leng, kajeno lena ha ke e kope. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

 

[The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I haven’t asked for your assistance, hon member. I will ask for it some other day, not today.]

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Kgale ke emisitse letsogo, o seke wa bua le nna jalo Motlatsammusakgotla, o rile re emise matsogo, re seke ra emelela fela, ke emisa letsogo, ga o ntshupe. Jaanong fa ke tsamaya ka melao, wena ke wena o ikgatholosang melao e o reng re tsamae ka yona. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: I have been raising my hand. Do not speak to me like that Deputy Speaker; you said we must raise our hands and not just stand up. I raise my hand, but you don’t recognise me. If we follow the rules, you disregards the very same rules that you said we must abide by.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

 

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Ke ne ke kopa gore o mphe tetlanyana fela ke tshwaele [Will you please allow me to make a comment?]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Leloko le hlomphehang o pheisa ka eng jwale? [Hon member what is your point of order?]

 

Rre A M MATLHOKO: Ee nkutlwelele gee, nkutlwelele, wena Motlatsammusakgotla, mo maemong a o leng mo go ona o tlisa tlhakatlhakano mo Ntlong, ka gore o tsaya ... [Tsenoganong.], a kere wa ba utlwa, ba ba tletseng go tlhodia fela mo Palamenteng, ba o sa reng sepe ka bona. Ke wena o tlisang tlhakatlhakano fano, ga wa tlhomama  mo go diragatseng melao ya Palamente.

 

O tsaya letlhakore, leloko le le tlotlegang fale wa emelela, o bua fela jaaka a rata. Fa ba rona ba emelela ba bua, ba phoso. Ke ne ke go kopa Motlatsammusakgotla gore wena fa o leng fa teng foo [Tsenoganong.], totatota o se tseye letlhakore ka gore fa o ikaba ka letlhakore o tlile go tlhakatlhakanya Ntlo eno [Tsenoganong.]. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

 

[Mr A M MATLHOKO: Yes, listen to me! listen to me! In your position as Deputy Speaker, you are causing chaos in this House, because ... [Interjections.] Can you hear them? Listen to those who are here to make a noise in Parliament? Are you going to say anything about them? You are the one who is causing chaos in this House because you are biased. You are not consistent in applying Parliament’s rules.

 

You are taking sides; that hon member there just stood up and spoke. When our members do the same, they are wrong.

 

Deputy Speaker, could you please ... [Interjections.] refrain from taking sides, because if you do, you will cause chaos in this House. [Interjections.]]

 

Mr A M FIGLAN: Deputy Speaker, if we had accepted the names as proposed by the Chief Justice, then we would have been in violation of the Constitution. It is for this reason that we are in support of the report to restart the process. We want to thank members of the committee for the way in which this matter was dealt with. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, the portfolio committee was tasked to consider a request from the Chief Justice, Mr Mogoeng Mogoeng, to find a suitable candidate for a vacancy that arose after Ms Rene Taljaard left the electoral commission. A list of prepared candidates was submitted and their curriculum vitaes were thoroughly considered.

 

The portfolio committee raised serious concerns – especially regarding race representavity on the commission as the current standing commissioners were all black and male – that this was not representative of race and gender which is a composition that is needed in our country, South Africa.

 

In his report, the Chief Justice put forward the names of eight candidates, seven of whom were African males and a female, and one white female. The committee stressed the need for greater race representavity within the ranks of the electoral commission as per section 193(2) of the Constitution, and agreed that the current list of recommended candidates did not meet the requirement.

 

It is with this view that the IFP supports this report and its recommendation that the President of the country considers the reinitiation of the process of candidate selection and interviews, and that this process be started afresh. I thank you.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, the NFP welcomes the report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs recommending that the President considers the reinitiation of the process of advertising and interviews to identify more candidates meeting equity requirements.

 

As the month of celebrating the contribution of women to South Africa’s society draws to a close, the NFP believes that it is fitting and proper that the decision to appoint a candidate to the electoral commission be postponed to address the current gender imbalance on the commission. We also believe that appointing a woman simply because she is a woman would have been a great insult to the millions of women in South Africa.

 

The candidate, whom we eventually select, in addition to complying with the gender profile needs of the commission, must also be suitably qualified. The NFP believes that we have many women in South Africa who would meet the requirements and it is now up to those entities that are responsible for nominations to select suitably qualified candidates for the vacant position.

 

The issue of the gender and racial composition of the commission is problematic and we question why the constitutional requirements of gender and racial representation were not considered when the current members serving on the commission were appointed. We are now faced with a situation where one vacancy must compensate for both gender and racial representation, whilst the remainder of the commission in its existing form and composition remains unchallenged. As the NFP we believe that the entire commission ought to be restructured so as to give full effect to the constitutional requirements of gender and racial representation.

 

In conclusion, the NFP supports the recommendation of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs. I thank you.

 

Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I wouldn’t want to repeat the words of all the members who have spoken before me. All of us agreed in the committee, so we are surprised by the position of the EFF. We respect their right, despite them having been there when we agreed that we support and confirm this report. I thank you.

 

Question put: That the motion moved by the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.

 

Division demanded.

 

The House divided.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon Deputy Speaker, before you proceed can I rise on a point of order? [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: May I also ask you not to interrupt when I’m talking please? Now, I want to understand the issue of those bouncers outside. Why are they only at this door and not at the other doors? What is the arrangement with regard to those bouncers? [Interjections.] Can you clarify that? We don’t feel safe. As we walk out here there are bouncers but they are not at other doors. Why are they only at this door? Can you clarify that?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are in the middle of voting. Your point of order ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: No, but I’m asking. It’s a serious issue. We are worried about our safety. Can you please clarify it?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright. I hear you, hon member. Take your seat. Thank you very much. Members, when requested to do so ...

 

Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, you need to make a ruling on what has been raised here. [Interjections.] It is the second incident where bouncers are only waiting at this door. We need clarity so that we are sure that we are safe. It can’t be that we rise on a point of order and you don’t make a ruling when it’s convenient to you.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, if it will assist the hon members; the parliamentary protection services are at all the doors. They are not only at the door that the member is referring to. If you open that one you will find them there. They are at all the doors. Can we continue with the business of the House? This sitting is not meant for the EFF to take us for granted. Can we continue with the business of the day?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, this is a serious matter ... [Inaudible] ... please. [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Wait, hon member. You see ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: There is security ... [Inaudible] ... bouncers.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, take your seat. Yes, hon member, I will give ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: So you arrange with bouncers to ... {Inaudible.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member please let me proceed. I gave you an opportunity and you have spoken ...

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: You want to deploy bouncers here for us.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are interrupting what we should be going ahead with. Let’s proceed. Yes, hon member?

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, on two occasions during this sitting there have been unprecedented aspersions cast on members of the staff of Parliament and I really think it is an extremely extraordinary thing that Members of Parliament are able to do in this House. I really think we need a ruling on this matter and I ask you to consider it when you return to the House.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member; we have said that the subject of today’s proceedings has created unfortunate requirements for us to go to extraordinary lengths in dealing with what has happened in the House. I can assure you that we will deal with it. Right now our business is to proceed with the division that was called by the EFF. Let’s proceed.

 

AYES - 178: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; America, D; Bagraim, M; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Basson, L J; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Capa, R N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dreyer, A M; Faku, Z C; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gqada, T; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Johnson, M; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, M D; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Kohler, D; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Krumbock, G R; Kwankwa, N L S; Lees, R A; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabilo, S P; Mackay, G; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Mahambehlala, T; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Majola, T R; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masehela, E K M; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matsepe, C D; Matshoba, M O; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mazzone, N W A; Mbhele, Z N; Mchunu, S; Mcloughlin, A R; Memela, T C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mogotsi, V P; Mokgalapa, S; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Motau, S C; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthethwa, E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nyambi, H V; Patel, E; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, S M; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Schmidt, H C; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shelembe, M L; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Stander, T; Stubbe, D J; Terblanche, J F; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; Van Damme, P T; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Whitfield, A G; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Xego-Sovita, S T; Yengeni, L E.

 

NOES - 14: Chewane, H; Dlamini, M M; Ketabahle, V; Khawula, M S; Matiase, N S; Matlhoko, A M; Matshobeni, A; Mbatha, M S; Mhlongo, S P; Mokause, M O; Mulaudzi, T E; Ntobongwana, P; Paulsen, M N; Shivambu, N F.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Report accordingly adopted.

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, we want to be advised on the quorum and what specific number is needed to form it. Can you please advice on the total number of voters?

 

The Deputy SPEAKER: Hon member, what is the problem? I do not understand your problem. Is it mathematical, 178 plus 14?

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I rose to ask you to tell us about the total number required for us to form a quorum and to proceed with the voting.

 

The Deputy SPEAKER: It is a third, a 134. So, we have more than that. [Interjections.]

 

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF PROTOCOL AMENDING THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME AND ON CAPITAL

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF CONVENTION BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CAMEROON FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME

 

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF QATAR FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME

 

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF LESOTHO FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME

 

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION OF THE PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF CHINA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME

 

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF GRENADA FOR THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION RELATING TO TAX MATTERS

 

Mr Y R CARRIM: Chairperson, as I understand it, I am not sure what I am expected to do. I thought that there was going to be a declaration but since you have asked me to speak, how many minutes do I have?

 

HON MEMBERS: Six.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Carrim, I thought that you knew about declarations and how long they take. Three minutes.

 

Mr Y R CARRIM: Alright, but we do not particularly want to declare.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That’s fine, say so.

 

Mr Y R CARRIM: The point is that from 1994 onwards, these double tax agreements and so on have just been tabled in Parliament. There has never been a request from the ANC’s side that we have a declaration on this because essentially they are signed off by the Minister of Finance and in this case his counterpart from another country. The norm has been to process it in the committee whilst recognising that they have a limited oversight role. So, I am bemused that we are for the first time since 1994 putting these up for discussion. It was understood that there maybe another party that wants to make a declaration, in which case I understood that it would be the right of the ANC to reply to that. But since that is not the case, I would like to formally table these orders. They were discussed in the committee and we have been concerned about two policy issues of the committee and the House concerned is interested. Firstly is base erosion and profit shifting, we stress that when these double tax agreements are signed with these countries we should take this into account.

 

The second issue that has arisen is a persistent theme and is always discussed for the next few years. Presumably it is so because of problems in raising revenue when we secure these double tax agreements and other related international agreements we must ensure that our revenue resources are not undermined. In short that is what is basically about and I would like the powers that be that decide on the programme to consider that unless we change the Constitution and the Rules, we should just table these rather than have 10 minutes allocated for I know not what. Thank you very much.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we will now go through the individual reports as I understand, we have said so. Hon member ... [Interjections.]

 

Mr N S MATIASE: We would like to make a declaration because we are sure that the ruling party has no clue whatsoever about the subject we are dealing with. So, we want to test their knowledge of these matters.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, if you want to do that then do so. Go ahead.

 

Mr N SIGNH: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order, should you not put the reports first to the House and then we get the ayes and the noes and then a declaration can be called. I think that the reports have not been put to the House as yet as to whether the House accepts or not and thereafter we can deal with declarations if so desired. Thank you.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Singh, as I read earlier on that we put the reports together as placed in the Order Paper, so you will declare and thereafter we will take decisions. So, anybody who speaks will speak on all of them. Shall we proceed on that? Go ahead, hon member.

 

Declarations of vote(s):

Mr N S MATIASE: As we said that the ruling party has no idea of what we are dealing with here. The EFF would like to share some few lessons with them. For years South Africa has been observed with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, methods contrary to all academic research and practical experience which shows fundamental flaws of treating tax avoidance as legal and acceptable business practice. Unless South Africa passes legislation, an act of Parliament and make tax avoidance illegal; many of these agreements, protocols and treatise will remain redundant, difficult if not impossible to enforce.

 

The reality is that the OECD interests are not aligned with South Africa’s interests to maximally collect tax from multinational companies. It was misguided to have faith in their processes and a different approach must be considered. In fact, overwhelming evidence shows that treaties are not meant to protect the interests of multinational corporations before fiscal stability and tax evasion. At the same time multinational companies will continue to find sophisticated means and measures not to pay tax. The ANC government is failing to recognise continuous changes and the scope of resources is being lost through avoidance.

 

What is even more alarming about the nature of many of these treaties is that South Africa is signing treaties with countries that do not have significant trading activities. For an example, there is no significant physical and tangible trade between South Africa and Luxemburg that one can talk about yet there is more money leaving South Africa heading to Luxemburg compared to Germany. The SA Revenue Services, Sars, commissar or commissioner [Laughter.] was telling the committee yesterday about the tax gap of about R300 billion, money that is supposed to be collected but it is not.

 

South Africa must learn from many developing countries such as Argentina, Brazil, India, Bolivia and many others, in particular the air force and corrective measures to deal with illicit financial flows. While observing and engaging in the OECD processes there must be a parallel process to learn solutions that can deal with South Africa’s problems of taxation. With prioritised development objectives before multinational corporation’s profits, otherwise multinational companies will continue to loot and steal whilst we watch and do nothing. South Africa must stop a process of looting and collateral damage between the black emerging comprador-bourgeoisie on the left and the multinationals who continue to loot this country. The EFF rejects this report.

 

Mr A LEES: Hon Deputy Speaker, one is amazed at some of the pronouncements that are sometimes made in this House, absolutely amazed. If it were not for our privilege in this House, I am sure that there would be lots of liable action taking place. Nevertheless, hon Deputy Speaker, we must be very careful about how we address tax avoidance. I would hasten to say that there is not a single person in this House who does not try to avoid tax. Not a single one. Not one of us in this House goes out and pays more tax than we need to pay. That is the truth of it. What we need to be careful of and what these protocols try to do is move profits from one tax jurisdiction to another and thereby pay less tax than perhaps they should pay. But to talk about tax avoidance as if is a crime, is nonsense.

 

Iyaxaka ngempela le nto. Nami ngiyazama ekugcineni konyaka ukuthi ngikhokhe intela, kodwa angikhokhi isenti ngaphezu kwalokho okudingekayo. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

 

[This thing is really confusing. I also try to pay tax at the end of the year but I don’t pay more tax than what is needed. Thank you. [Applause.]]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what is your point of order?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: Can I request that the hon member must not do that.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What?

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: He must not accuse all of us of avoiding tax. He must not do that.

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, hon member.

 

Mr M M DLAMINI: No. He must not do it. If he avoids tax then he must speak for himself.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. Hon Nkomo.

 

Ms S J NKOMO: Hon Deputy Speaker, it remains a fundamental tenet of modern tax planning that structures need to be kept under constrained review and need to be able to adapt to constantly changing circumstance. These bilateral agreements evident such changing circumstances and are necessary in that there are agreements between two tax administrations of two countries enabling the respective administrations to eliminate double taxation. A most welcome addition with regards to withholding tax is what is called withholding tax, WHT. The maximum rate of tax of dividends will be 5% in the case where the beneficial owner of the dividend holds at least 10% of the capital in the dividend paying company and a 10% withhold tax shall be effective on the gross amount of dividends in all other cases.

 

Applications of these limitations would be mutual and agreed by the two contracting states. Hon Speaker, these agreements collectively pave the way for growth and enhanced business opportunities between South Africa and other partner states. The IFP supports the agreements. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

Mr D D VAN ROOYEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think it is important for the House and the nation to be informed that the flight of a capital to the so-called tax haven is not a new phenomenon. But also it is important to note that efforts by various countries, including the emerging economies, are not a new thing. We should not be fooled to think that because of the arrival of new political parties in the political landscape of our country this is a new phenomenon. We have been tackling this problem as a country for quite some time.

 

I must indicate that it’s not correct as much as the hon Mazambane - the hon Lees - has indicated. Maybe we need to check the source of the tax theory of some of the participants in this Parliament. What theory suggests that tax avoidance is illegal? Maybe we should check what the norm is as far as the optimal tax theory suggests to all of us. It is scaring as some people want to write new text books.

 

I would pardon most of you because I know the Whip of the party that is trying to use this development as a way of creating a political identity. He is not someone who is conversant with economic concepts. He is more in political science of things. [Applause.] And I’m bit worried as you are trying to even distort. As a graduate of Wits University you are trying to distort some of the basic teachings that you get from that reputable institution. The gist of the matter is that there is a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Let us not conflate the two. Let us try our level best to avoid doing that. [Applause.]

 

Also, they keep on saying that we should ban transfer pricing. What is transfer pricing? Transfer is a transactional pricing between multinational companies as they conduct business between their subsidiaries. If Nandos from Mozambique is buying something from the Nandos in the UK - by the way we also have multinational companies as South Africa, Nandos as South African company is running operations in the UK - and they sell amongst themselves they set up a price. That is transfer pricing. So, when you say we must ban transfer pricing what do you mean?  We are not dealing with transfer pricing, but we are dealing with the abuse of transfer pricing. I think you will take this as a free lesson. We tried to tell you during the committee, but you are not prepared to learn. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: On a point of order: I think this member is exposing his confusion and he can’t ... [Interjections.]

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat. Take your seat, hon member. Please, don’t try to speak. I told you that you can’t speak, and not only because you have defied the Chair, but also that you have been named. Can you respect the Rules of the House.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Which Rule names me? Which Rule is that?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you also made it worse by hailing insults to the Chair, openly and swearing. Take your seat, please.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: But which Rule is that?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.

 

Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Which Rule names me? Can you show me the Rule that says I am named and I can’t speak? Can you show me the Rule?

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I have directed you to leave the Chamber in terms of Rule 51, and you have refused. I now ask the Serjeant-at-arms to remove you from the Chamber in terms of Rule 53. [Applause.]

 

The member thereupon withdrew from the Chamber

 

Protocol amending the agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the Republic of Cyprus for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to taxes on income and on Capital approved.

 

Convention between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the Republic of Cameroon for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income approved.

 

Agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the State of Qatar for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income approved.

 

Agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the Kingdom of Lesotho for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income approved.

 

Agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income approved.

 

Agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of Grenada for the exchange of information relating to tax matters approved.

 

The House adjourned at 19:13.

__________

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

FRIDAY, 21 AUGUST 2015

ANNOUNCEMENTS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

The Speaker and the Chairperson

 

1.      Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

 

1. The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bills as section 75 Bills:

 

1. Promotion and Protection of Investment Bill [B 18 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 75).

 

1. Criminal Matters Amendment Bill [B 20 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 75).

 

TABLINGS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises

1. Report and Financial Statements of Eskom Holdings SOC Limited for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

 

1. Integrated Report of Eskom Holdings SOC Limited for 2015.

 

COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

National Assembly

 

Please see pages 3201-3214 of the ATCs.

 

Please see page 3214 of the ATCs.

 

Please see pages 3215-3227 of the ATCs.

 

MONDAY, 24 AUGUST 2015

 

TABLINGS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. The 2016/17 draft annual performance plan for Parliament, and the 2015/16 Annual Performance Plan for Parliament, submitted by the Speaker and the Chairperson. The documents are available on Parliament's website: www.parliament.gov.za

 

TUESDAY, 25 AUGUST 2015

 

TABLINGS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

1.      The Acting Minister of Public Service and Administration

 

1. Government Notice No 800, published in Government Gazette, No 39051, dated 3 August 2015: Draft Public Service Regulations, 2015: Invitation for public comment, issued in terms of section 41 of the Public Service Act, 1994 (promulgated under Proclamation No 103 of 1994).

 

2.      The Minister of Transport

 

1. Cape Town Agreement of 2012 on the Implementation of the provisions of the Torremolinos Protocol of 1993 relating to the International Convention for the Safety of Fishing Vessels, 1977, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 

1. Explanatory Memorandum to the Cape Town Agreement of 2012 on the Implementation of the provisions of the Torremolinos Protocol of 1993 relating to the International Convention for the Safety of Fishing Vessels, 1977.

 

COMMITTEE REPORTS

 

National Assembly

 

Please see pages 3230-3241 of the ATCs.

 

Please see page 3241 of the ATCs.

 

TUESDAY, 26 AUGUST 2015

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS

 

National Assembly

 

The Speaker

1.       Introduction of Bills

 

1. The Minister of Public Service and Administration

 

1. Public Service Commission Amendment Bill [B 21 – 2015] (National Assembly – proposed sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 38956 of 3 July 2015.]

 

         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.

 

         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM. The Bill may only be classified after the expiry of at least three parliamentary working days since introduction.

 

TABLINGS

 

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

 

1.      The Minister of Finance

(a)      Government Notice No R. 343, published in Government Gazette, No 38729, dated 23 April 2015: Notice in terms of section 11D(6)(b) of the Act, in respect of certain categories of research and development deemed to constitute the carrying on of research and development,  in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No. 58 of 1962).

 

(b)      Government Notice No R. 344, published in Government Gazette, No 38730, dated 23 April 2015: Regulations in terms of paragraph (e) of definition of “research and development” in section 11D (1) of the Act, on criteria for clinical trials in respect of deduction for research and development, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No. 58 of 1962).

 

(c)      Government Notice No R. 346, published in Government Gazette, No 38732, dated 23 April 2015: Regulations in terms of paragraph (d) of definition of “research and development” in section 11D (1) of the Act, on additional criteria for multisource pharmaceutical products, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No. 58 of 1962).

 

(d)      Government Notice No R. 362, published in Government Gazette, No 38744, dated 28 April 2015: Regulations under items (a) and (c) of definition of “determined value” in paragraph 7(1) of Seventh Schedule to Income Tax Act, 1962, on retail market value in respect of right of use of motor vehicle, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No. 58 of 1962).

(e)      Government Notice No 352, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Technical Changes of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

 

(f)      Government Notice No 353, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Technical Changes of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

 

(g)      Government Notice No 354, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Listing of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

 

(h)      Government Notice No 355, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Listing of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

 

(i)       Government Notice No 356, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Listing of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

 

(j)       Government Notice No 357, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Listing of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

(k)      Government Notice No 358, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30 April 2015: Listing of Public Entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No. 1 of 1999).

 

(l)       Government Notice No R. 425, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated 22 May 2015: Amendment of rules (DAR/145), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No. 91 of 1964).

 

(m)     Government Notice No R. 426, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated 22 May 2015:  Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/2/370), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No. 91 of 1964).

 

(n)      Government Notice No R. 427, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated 22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No. 6 (No 6/33), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No. 91 of 1964).

 

(o)      Government Notice No R. 428, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated 22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1B/01), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No. 91 of 1964).

 

(p)      Government Notice No R. 429, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated 22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1C/40), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No. 91 of 1964).

(q)      Government Notice No R. 430, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated 22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1D/03), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No. 91 of 1964).

 

(r)       Government Notice No R. 437, published in Government Gazette, No 38823, dated 29 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1517), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(s)      Government Notice No R. 438, published in Government Gazette, No 38823, dated 29 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1D/04), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(t)       Government Notice No R. 445, published in Government Gazette, No 38834, dated 29 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1518), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(u)      Government Notice No R. 457, published in Government Gazette, No 38845, dated 5 June 2015: Second publication of draft regulations made under sections 5(1) and 107(2) of the Financial Markets Act, 2012 (Act No 19 of 2012).

 

(v)      Government Notice No 461, published in Government Gazette, No 38844, dated 5 June 2015: Exemption in terms of section 74 of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).

 

(w)     Government Notice No R. 512, published in Government Gazette, No 38878, dated 19 June 2015: Amendment of rules (DAR/155), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(x)      Government Notice No R. 533, published in Government Gazette, No 38891, dated 19 June 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1519), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(y)      Government Notice No 541, published in Government Gazette, No 38906, dated 23 June 2015: Exemption of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality from Regulation 45(2)(a)(x) of Asset Transfer Regulations, 2008, made in terms of section 177(1)(b) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

 

(z)      Government Notice No 546, published in Government Gazette, No 38916, dated 26 June 2015: Allocations to Metropolitan Municipalities of General Fuel Levy Revenue, in terms of item 3(2)(a) of Schedule 1 of the Taxation Laws Amendment Act, 2009 (Act No 17 of 2009).

 

(aa)    Government Notice No R. 566, published in Government Gazette, No 38925, dated 3 July 2015: Amendment of rules (DAR/156), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(bb)    Government Notice No R. 567, published in Government Gazette, No 38925, dated 3 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (2/1/367), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(cc)    Government Notice No R. 568, published in Government Gazette, No 38925, dated 3 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (3/1/709), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(dd)    Government Notice No R. 653, published in Government Gazette, No 39035, dated 31 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (1/1/1520), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(ee)    Government Notice No R. 654, published in Government Gazette, No 39035, dated 31 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (1/1/1520), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(ff)     Government Notice No R. 655, published in Government Gazette, No 39035, dated 31 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (2/1/368), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

(gg)    Government Notice No 722, published in Government Gazette, No 39100, dated 14 August 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (4/6/2), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(hh)    Government Notice No 723, published in Government Gazette, No 39100, dated 14 August 2015: Amendment of Paragraph 8 of Schedule 1, made in terms of section 74(3)(a) the Value-Added Tax Act, 1964 (Act No 89 of 1991).

 

(ii)      Government Notice No 724, published in Government Gazette, No 39100, dated 14 August 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/6/3), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 

(jj)      Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for the year ended 31 March 2015.

 

2.      The Minister of Transport

 

1. African Maritime Transport Charter, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 

1. Explanatory Memorandum to the African Maritime Transport Charter.

 

National Assembly

 

1.      The Speaker

 

1. Petition from residents of Inxuba Yethemba in the Chris Hani District Municipality, calling for improved service delivery in respect of water and sanitation, submitted in terms of Rule 312 (Mr L J Basson MP).

 

---