Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 17 Jun 2015


No summary available.


17 JUNE 2015






The Council met at 14:03.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.






That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers report of Select Committee on Education and Recreation, Budget Vote No 16: Health, Budget Vote No 27: Environmental Affairs and Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill.


Question put: That the motion be agreed to.


In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Government established processes/mechanisms


7.           Dr H E Mateme (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Deputy President:


(1)        Whether the Government has established any processes or mechanisms to assess the responsiveness of our democratic institutions, policy and legislative framework to the new demands placed on democratic State (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;


(2)        whether our nation is making progress in addressing the historical injustices of apartheid and social exclusion (details furnished); if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what progress;


(3)        whether the available information points to progress in realising the ideals of our Vision 2030 as espoused in our National Development Plan, especially the elimination of poverty, reduction of inequality and building a cohesive society; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?                                                                            CO326E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members, in answering the question, the Constitution of our country provides for the establishments to strengthen constitutional democracy in South Africa. In order to do so, there are a quite a number of institutions that the Constitution has provided to be set up. These include the Human Rights Commission, Commission for Gender Equality, the Office of the Auditor-General], the Public Protector and the Public Service Commission.


These institutions are independent and only subject to the Constitution and the law. They must report their activities and the performance of their functions to Parliament regularly. Parliament has a constitutional responsibility and duty to ensure that these institutions indeed respond to the constitutional imperatives placed on our democratic government.


In addition, government has established the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation to, amongst the many other things that it does, assess the effectiveness of our policies with regard to improving the lives of ordinary South Africans.


Our nation is indeed making steady progress in addressing the historical injustice of apartheid colonialism. Since 1994, the ANC government has undertaken extensive policy and structural reforms to transform the socioeconomic conditions of our people. The 20 Year Review report details the progress the country has made indicating that the living conditions of the majority of our people has indeed improved.


We have made good progress in consolidating democracy and expanding the access to basic services for many of our people in areas such as pollution of water, sanitation, quality education and great access to education, quality healthcare, housing, food security and social security.


The work of government is guided by the National Development Plan which should take us to 2030. The key instrument that we use to implement the National Development Plan, NDP, is the Medium-Term Strategic Framework which identifies key actions which we need to take to implement the NDP over the next five years.


Cabinet uses progress reports on the implementation of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework. It uses it as the basis of monitoring whether government is implementing the NDP or not. Progress reports are made available to the public through the programme of action website. If one looks at those progress reports, you will see that they indicate that, for example, there is good progress that is made in ensuring that South Africans live longer. This is due in large measure to the expansion of our HIV treatment programme. In education, there is progress being made particularly in the annual national assessment results for literacy and numeracy. Despite this progress, quality still remains an area of concern for both sectors and it is a matter that is receiving the relevant departments’ attention.


The progress report suggests significant challenges with respect to safety and security, economic growth, employment creation, rural development and land reform. These are areas where a lot of work still needs to be done. But despite these, progress has been made. Thanks to the mechanisms government has put in place to plan, monitor as well as to evaluate. We are now in a much better position than we were before to detail progress. This has put us in a much better position to address challenges and to work systematically to address all these challenges.


All in all, I think, we are in a better positioned to attack and address the challenges and the problems at hand. Thank you. [Applause.]


SEFEPISEGOLO SA KHANSELE YA BOSETŠHABA YA DIPOROFENSE: Ke kgopela go botšiša Motlatšamopresidente wa naga gore naa o kgotsofatšwa ke ditlabakelo tše tša mmušo wa temokrasi tšeo di tsentšhitšwego mo mananeong a go hlankela badudi ba naga ya Afrika-Borwa. Se sengwe ke gore a ka nnetennete le bale ba kua magaeng le ba ka morago ga dithaba le bona ba hwetša thušo go mmušo wo wa temokrasi ka thušo ya ditlabakelo tše di hlotšwego go tloga ka 1994. Ke a leboga.


MOTLATŠAMOPRESIDENTE: Ke na le tshepo ye e feleletšego gore mešomo ya mmušo wo wa temokrasi ke ye mebotse. Le bao ba dutšego kua magaeng ba kgona go bona gore mmušo wo wa temokrasi o a ba šomela ka nnete. Ge ba ka lebelela gabotse ba tla bona gore mešomo ... (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)


[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I would like to ask the Deputy President if he is impressed with the mechanisms that the democratic government has put in place to accelerate service delivery to the citizens of South Africa. The other question would be whether the people in the remote areas are really getting access to the services created since 1994. Thank you.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I strongly believe that this democratic government has great achievements. Even the people in the rural areas can see that this government is working for them. If they look closely enough, they will realise ...]


MUFARISA MUPHURESIDENNDE WA AFRIKA TSHIPEMBE: Mishumo ye ya vha i tshi itiwa nga muvhuso wa kale, muvhuso wa tshitalula, a i fani na mishumo ya namusi. Mishumo ine ya khou itiwa nga muvhuso wa demokirasi ndi mishumo ine ya khou ita uri vhutshilo ha vhathu vhu kone u ya phanda nga ndila ya khwine nga maanda.


Nga hetshila tshifhinga ri fhasi ha mivhuso ya tshitalula, yo vha i mivhuso ye ya vha i sa sumbedzi uri i ita uri vhutshilo ha vhathu vhu ye phanda nga ndila yo fanelaho. Namusi ri na muvhuso washu we ra dikhethela wone, muvhuso une wa vha wa National Development Plan ine ya khou ita uri ri kone u vhona uri ri ya ngafhi. (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraphs follows.)


[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA: The work which was done by the past apartheid government was not the same as the work done the government today.  The work of the democratic government is the meant to improve and to better the lives of the people.


During the times of apartheid, the governments did not seem to improve the lives of the people. Today we have elected the government which embraces the National Development Plan which shows us where we are going.]


Ge re šoma ka Lenaneo la Tlhabollo ya Bosetšhaba, gomme re le lebelela gabotse, re hwetša gore ke lona leo le re šupetšago tsela. Le re iša kua pele go ngwaga wa 2030. Mengwaga ye kamoka ga yona pele re fihla go ngwaga wa 2030, re tla bona gore ngwaga ka ngwaga go tla ba le dilo tše dibotse tšeo di tla dirwago ke mmušo wo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)


[The National Development Plan 2030 clearly guides our way forward to providing quality public service. We will see which achievements take place from this current year to 2030.]


We will be making a great deal of progress leading up to 2030 because the plan in itself has a number of targets, and it has a number of goals that enable us to work effectively. It has a number of action plans.


Chairperson, the good thing is the government has embraced the National Development Plan effectively and has translated it into the Medium-Term Strategic Framework which is really the implementation process for the plan. But more importantly it has also set up a full Ministry in the Presidency that monitors, evaluates and assesses the action that is being taken. On a regular basis we are able to see in real terms precisely what is being done and what is being achieved. This is being done in a very open and transparent manner. Where there are weakness we own to them and we strengthen our resolved to address them. So, progress is being made. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]


Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I heard the hon The Deputy President said that the South African government is committed to upholding democratic institutions and if it includes respecting resolutions adopted by Parliament such as the Rome Statute, why did the government allow President Al-Bashir to leave South Africa where there is an international warrant for his arrest for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide? What steps will the hon the Deputy President, a special envoy to South Sudan, take to ensure that those in contempt of the South African High Court order will be held accountable?


Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: On a point of order, Chair. I think the matter of President Al-Bashir is before the courts in this country and therefore is sub judice.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, the point of order is sustained. The matter of the African Union, AU, convening its business in South Africa, the attendance of President Al-Bashir is in court. The courts have ordered an investigation. That investigation must first be finished before we can get the Deputy President to give us a response which might actually tell us what exactly happened. So I will disallow that.


Nkul V E MTILENI: Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi lava ku vutisa Xandla xa Phuresidente hi Xitsonga. Mfumo wa n’wina lowu mi wu rhangelaka nwina na Phuresidente Jacob Zuma, wu kongome kwihi hi ku pfuneta vantshwa? Loko mi languta sweswi, hi mpfhuka mfumo lowu nga rhangeriwa hi ANC wu sungula ku fuma hi 1994, vaakitiko va ya va karhi va lahlekela hi mitirho. Ndza tshemba mi ta pfumelelana na mina eka leswi.


Eka mavhiki mambirhi lama nga hundza, migodi ya laha Afrika-Dzonga, leyi katsaka mugodi wa Marikana lowu mi wu fambisaka xikan’we na van’wana, vanhu vo hundza 200 000 va lahlekeriwile hi mitirho. Swi tikomba onge a ku na nchumu leswi mi swi endlaka.


Xin’wana nakambe, ku na 2, 5 wa timiliyoni ta vantshwa lava nga pasa tidyondzo to hambanahambana etiyunivhesiti ta thekinoloji na le tiyunivhesiti. Ndza tshemba leti i tinhlayo leti nga lo kwatsa! Hi mpfhuka mfumo lowu nga rhangeriwa hi ANC wu va kona, vana va hina a va kumi mitirho. Leswi swi lolohisa vana va hina lava ha lavaka ku yisa tidyondzo ta vona emahlweni.


N’wana un’wana u kale a vutisa mutswari wa yena leswaku a ya endla yini exikolweni hikuva makwenu wa yena u pasile, kambe u lo tshama ekaya. U na nkombo wa malembe a tshamile a nga ri na ntirho endzhaku ka ku pasa digiri ya B Com. Un’wana loyi ndzi tshamaka na yena eka Malamulele u kayakaya a lava ndhawu yo ya endla ndzetelontirhweni etindhawini to hambanahambana. Yena u pase dyondzo ya vuinjhinere, kambe na sweswi u lo tshama ekaya.


Ndzi na xivutiso eka Xandla xa Phuresidente. Nkarhi hinkwawo mi tshama mi ri karhi mi yimbelela risimu ra chela. Na vhiki leri nga hundza laha a mi ri kona nw’ina na Phuresidente... [Nkarhi wu herile.] (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)


[Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy President in Xitsonga. What is the position of the government that you and President Zuma lead with regard to assisting the youth? When you look at the current situation, ever since the ANC-led government came into power in 1994, the citizens continue to lose their jobs. I hope you will agree with me on this.


Two weeks ago, the South African mines which include Marikana mine that you and others lead, more than 200 000 people lost their jobs. It seems as if there is nothing that you are doing about it.


One other thing, there are 2, 5 million of the youth who have acquired different qualifications at universities of technology and universities. I hope these are accurate numbers. Ever since the existence of the ANC-led government, our children are unable to find jobs. These discourage our children who still want to further their studies.


A certain child asked his or her parent as to what should he or she do at school because his or her sibling has passed, but is idling at home. He or she is seven years without a job after the completion of a B Com degree. Another one who stays at Malamulele like I do is struggling to get a place for in-service training at different areas. He or she has acquired an engineering qualification, but to date he or she is idling at home.


I have a question to the Deputy President. You are saying the same thing at all times. Even last week where you and the President ...] [Time expired.]]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Julius, you stood up in the middle of the hon member putting his supplementary question. Was it a point of order?


Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, yes, on a point of order. I didn’t know that we are moving on to the next question before the Deputy President could response. I think you omitted it because normally you ask whether he will answer the question or not. That‘s what we normally do. Can you please put the question to the Deputy President with respect? Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order hon members! I did actually move on because I am presiding. When it is a question which, sometimes members of this House do put two or three supplementaries, or a question, We are supposed to make one supplementary and sometimes members do get two or three supplementaries, I allow it and allow the President, the Deputy President or the Minister to respond.


In this particular instance I exercised my authority not to allow that question because, as I explained to the House that matter is in the courts, and there is an investigation. So, I did disallow the question and I did say so.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Madam, I am just asking that since the question from the hon Julius is not allowed will there be a third question? Are you going to allow the third question?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: We disallowed it as the second supplementary. We are on our second supplementary which is the response which is the hon the Deputy President is going to respond to hon Mtileni. There is a chance for two other supplementaries. Hon Deputy President, please proceed.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the issue of unemployment of young people is a matter of great concern to all of us in government. And it should be a mater of concern to all of us as South Africans.


If we look back at how our economy has developed over the years, we find that when the ANC-led government took office in 1994, there were some eight million people in our country employed. The economy was much smaller than what it is today. Today, we have 15 million people who are now employed by an economy that has grown over the years. South Africa is one of those few countries in the world that has seen economic growth all be it at a level where we would have wanted it to be higher, did grow quite a number of years and it was only one year where it was at a lower level or had negative growth. We’ve got more people in employment today than we did when we took over. That represents progress.


The challenge of unemployment is a worldwide challenge. It’s not only unique to South Africa. The challenge of youth unemployment is a global problem. Nearly, every country faces the challenge of youth unemployment. The real issue that should be asked is are you doing enough as a country to get your young people in employment positions. We would like to believe that we are doing as much as we can obviously, much more could be done. Indeed we want to work with all our partners. All social partners and stakeholders in South Africa need to work together so that together we can create jobs for young people.


For the government’s part it has set up a number of programmes up to and including making sure that when it comes to the procurement stage of infrastructure development, there is a set aside for young people to participate to be employed. As it is now we are encouraging employers, private sector and indeed public sector employers to take young people into learnership programmes. We often find that when young people are taken into learnership programmes, they do find jobs thereafter. Internships and learnerships are very important programmes that young people can participate in.


We encourage all employers to at least take a few learners into their company so that they can learn. The public sector is doing so in a big way. There are many more young people, obviously who are coming out of our colleges, high schools and universities who we need to focus attention on.


The National Youth Development Agency reports that they have been in touch with a number of young people and they have helped many thousands of young people. That is another programme. Many other programmes are underway to assist young people. The focus by the Jacob Zuma government on young people is huge. This is also being played out at provinces and even in local towns. We will not move away from addressing the challenge that young people face in our country.


Hi lava ku pfuna vantshwa leswaku va kuma mitirho na ku va na leswi va swi endlaka. Hi nga ka hi nga va tshiki hikuva i vana va hina. Hi fanele hi va pfuna mikarhi hinkwayo.


Leswi swi vuriwaka leswaku hi va tshikile ku sukela loko mfumo lowu nga rhangeriwa hi ANC wu sungula ku fuma ku fuma eAfrika-Dzonga, a hi swona. Hi lava leswaku vanhu va tshama va ri karhi va swi tiva leswaku hi le ku tirheni leswaku vantshwa va kuma mitirho. Hi nge swi tshiki na sweswo. Ndza khensa. [Va phokotela.] (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)


[We would like to assist the youth to get jobs and keep them occupied. We shall never neglect them because they are our children. We should assist them at all times.


What is being articulated that we have neglected them since the inception of the ANC-led government in South Africa is not true. We want to make the people aware that we are striving to ensure that our youth get jobs. We will never abandon that course of action. I thank you.] [Applause.]]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Ximbi, are you on a point of order?


Mr D L XIMBI: Yes, mam, but ...


... bendifuna ukuqonda ukuba ingaba isembekweni kusini na ukuba ilungu elihloniphekileyo lixakeke yifowuni ngelixa uSekela Mongameli ephendula imibuzo? Ndijonge ilungu elihloniphekileyo eliya, liyangxola, lisefowunini sibe thina sixakekile apha noSekela Mongameli. Ndicela ukubuza loo nto nje kuphela. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)


[... I want to know whether it is a respect for an hon member to be busy with the phone while the hon Deputy President is answering questions? I’m looking at the hon member there, she is making noise. She is busy with her phone while we are busy with the hon Deputy President. I would like to ask only that. Thank you.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I did observe that. The hon member has earpiece on her ear. I cannot see what she is doing. It looks like she has got her iPad. The difficulty in ruling the member out is that members of the House are allowed to comment, they are allowed to hackle and she is doing that. Unpleasant as it is we have allowed other members to do it. So I can’t rule her out of order in that one. Hon members know that consistency is something that we want to apply in this House.


Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, hon Deputy President you are looking well, Sir. It’s nice to see you back in the House. Mine is a very pretty simple and straight forward one.


In light of the s76 Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill, the public was not invited to comment on. What steps will you take to ensure the accessibility, responsiveness and of course transparency of public participation so that citizens may engage meaningfully in the democratic institutions. Thank you, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Deputy President, I may have lost track of your response. The question which the hon Essack is putting should arise from the response you made to the first question on the Order Paper. If it did not arise, then it is a new question. If it did arise, then the Deputy President will respond.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I may not be fully aware with the specifics of that case but I would say that the issue of transparency, openness and responsiveness are important principles that underpin the ethos of our governance. The public is entitled to participate in processes such as those to comment on what we do and give their own views, criticisms, suggestions and otherwise.


If that has not been permitted or been allowed to happen, it should and we will dully follow it up because it is a deviant type of action from the ethos that we are trying to promote. Thank you.


Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, Deputy President you mentioned in your response that part of the things that we seek to do has this government since 1994, was to address, in particular, measures that you mentioned. Would you concede that in the main it is also to address the aspiration of the Freedom Charter, but also the historical imbalances created by the apartheid in the past. Thank you, Chair.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I would agree that in the main what we are seeking to do is to fulfil the aspirations that our people 60 years ago crafted as they were imagining a South Africa that is free, nonracial and democratic.


In 1955 as they got together, that is the type of South Africa they wanted. So our forebears were trailblazers in many ways in that they crafted a clear path for us to have the type of future that we have. But at the same time they also said that future should also address the imbalances of the past, the injustices that were rolled on our people by the actions of the past government.


As we proceed forward to implement the NDP, and indeed as we push forward to fulfil the aspirations and the objectives of the Freedom Charter, we have at the same time a duty to address the injustices of the past - the imbalances that were brought about by apartheid misrule. This is precisely what we are doing. What we have sought to do since 1994, is precisely to address those imbalances to change the way in which our country has been governed. In great measure, a lot has been achieved; a lot of those aspirations have been addressed, but much more work still lies ahead. But what is pleasing is that we are clear on what needs to be done, we are clear on our people’s aspirations, the objectives that need to be fulfilled or achieved  and we are also clear on the actions we need to take. This is precisely what the Jacob Zuma government is busy with. We are implementing the National Development Plan. [Applause.]

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, I am rising on Rule 81, point of privilege, that the hon member Essack earlier on rose and ask a supplementary question on a matter that doesn’t belong to the question because the Bill itself is before the committee and is not an executive matter, it’s a matter the committee. The committees of both Houses participated in the processes. For me, hon Chairperson, the Deputy President is led to commit and make an undertaking on something that is out of the purview of the executive. Thank you. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, the hon Lewis Nzimande, is right. The matter which the hon Essack was putting to the Deputy President is covered by one of the orders of today.


I had said that I had not followed comprehensively the response given by the Deputy President on the principal question. That is why I then said, if the question arose from the response, if the Deputy President has said anything, then he was at liberty to respond.


The point of privilege as the hon Nzimande is raising, if he had intervened before the Deputy President had responded, and had for me clarified things, it would have been in order. I am not ruling that point out of order, but I am simply saying the Deputy President has responded, but we are being cautioned that we have allowed a supplementary which might put the executive into the area which the committees are dealing with currently. Let us be careful that we keep to what comes out of the response as a follow up because supplementary questions are suppose to flow out of the response to a question put in the House. They are not supposed to be about anything outside, but they are suppose to be follow ups on the responses given.


Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I thank you for recognising me again. Firstly, point of correction, my surname is spelled with the CK, it is Essack, and I am hon Essack.


On a point of correction to my esteemed colleague for now and again he can enjoys privileges. When you look at the first question which was put by the hon Mateme, it asks very clearly whether the government has established any processes or mechanisms to assess the responsiveness of our democratic institutions.


Based on that, I then asked the follow up question based on those principles which the hon the Deputy President was very kind enough to answer. I don’t believe that I was out of order with my follow up question, hon Chairperson. Thank you so much.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I do not think we must be delayed this point. I think the point has been made.


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I will make a follow up after the response by the hon the Deputy President. He was still responding to hon Ntebe’s question.


Cost-cutting measures


8.         Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Deputy President:


Whether all Ministers and Premiers have complied with the cost-cutting measures as announced by the Minister of Finance in his 2013 mid-term budget speech; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?                                  CO330E


Mr V E MTILENI: Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi kombela ku khomisa Xandla xa Phuresidente timbuva va nga se famba. [Chairperson, I am requesting to give the Deputy President provisions before he leaves.]


You see, I’ve realised that whatever president Jacob Zuma’s government is doing, is doing on a speed of a chameleon. Ijust want to come up with the suggestion ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, the last time you used the rule on privilege, you waved the rulebook. You do know that what you are doing you is actually not permitted. I think that it is within your rights as a Member of Parliament to give whatever information to the Deputy President before or as he leaves, but please do not take the time, because you know that you are out of order with that privilege that you are raising. [Interjections.] Thank you very much, please take your seat! Hon Mokgosi.


Ms N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetilo, ekare ga o a mpona gore ke ne tsholeditse letsogo nna le motl Nthebe, ke bone o o mo neela tetla a le nosi. [Chairperson, it looks like you did not see that I have my hand up. My and hon Nthebe’s hands were up, however, you managed to afford him a chance.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokgosi, the questions allow the person who put the question. Please bear with me because I’m going to be very slow. The person who posed the question, which the President, the Deputy President, or the Minister is responding to, usually gets a first bite on the supplementary question. I hope you understand that.


The next three supplementary questions are thrown to whoever raises or stands up and is recognised first. Yes, the person who presides here will pick those hands in the order of fight or in the order with which the people rise. In this particular instance, the hon Mtileni had raised his hand simultaneously with the hon Essack.


The hon Julius has been the first person to raise his hand and that is why when I said we would not allow that question, the next person was the hon Essack. The hon Nthebe had also raised his hand. So, it would seem to me that, that which we told the hon member last week on Friday, is important for members to acquaint themselves with the rules of this House.


This will apply again today because, hon Mokgosi, it does not follow, that when the whole House raises their hands, the presiding officer is bound to recognise all the hands. In this particular instance, a member of your party was given a chance to put a supplementary question.


Therefore, Mam, you may take an opportunity to raise your hand again on any other supplementary question since your name is not in any of the questions, depending on how quick and how or whether there are any other hands, you will be given that. But it does not follow; it does not follow, Mam, [Interjections.] I am addressing you! I am addressing you!


I cannot be that every time the House is brought to standstill because the hon member does not understand the rules or actually takes issue ... [Interjections.] Hon Mokgosi! [Interjections.] Hon Mokgosi! You will not address me sitting down in the first place! You will not address me, chairing this House sitting down! Hon members, we dealt with this matter on Friday. Kgosi!


Mr S G THOBEJANE: Chairperson, is it parliamentary for any member of this House, to call the Chair or the presiding officers by their first name?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Kgosi, we have dealt with this matter of respect in the House on Friday. I think the points we made in respect of this particular member, Kgosi, it may have been that on Friday we were trying to be diplomatic. The hon member is disrespectful of the rules of this House. We are being lenient because she is quite new, but I think the other members of this House spoke to her on Friday during the debates. I would say for now, sometimes we must give people space to read and again correct themselves. That is where I’m going to leave it today. I wish us to proceed.


Mr J J LONDT: Chair, I fully agree with you on the matter of respect and we should respect rules that are put in place. But it becomes a problem that our national leaders don’t even respect the international laws, and yet you expect the members of this House to show respect.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NOCP: Thank you hon Londt. The point which hon Londt wanted to make is heard, it will be addressed appropriately at the appropriate time. Can we please proceed with the business of this House?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I take it that this is in relation to answering Question 8.




The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In line with the cost-containment measures that were made and pronounced by the Minister of Finance, the necessary amendments have to be made to the Ministerial Handbook who review is in the process of being finalised. It must be noted that the expenditure related to Ministers and Premiers is administered by the relevant departments, and therefore, the details in this regard will have to be obtained from those departments.


By way of example, however, it should be noted that departments reduced their travel and accommodation expenditure by approximately R580 million in the 2014-15 financial year. The exact figure will be known when departments submit their financial statements and the audit of the figures are also complete.


The savings were registered through the negotiation of bulk rates with hotels on routes frequently travelled, through costs savings on air travel and reducing the number of delegations that often go to meetings. The National Treasury recently conducted an expenditure analysis at the provincial level between 2013-14 and 2014-15 financial years. Over all, savings of some 42% were realised in areas such as entertainment, 20% in venue and facility hire, 12% in catering and 5% in travel and subsistence.


The cost-containment measures demonstrate that the government takes the financial pressure on the fiscus seriously and is responsibly, seeking ways and options to do more with much less. Leaders in government are expected to lead from the front, to be mindful of the current economic realities and to exercise fiscal prudence. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy President, I do hear your response but unfortunately, it is too general. Let us talk specifics.

The hon Minister of Finance said this:


The standing on official vehicles by Ministers, Deputy Ministers and Premiers was curbed by the Finance Minister, hon Pravin Gordhan, in October 2013 to R600 000 per vehicle, including value-added tax, VAT.”


These cost-cutting measures were approved by the Cabinet in 2013. Whilst I spoke only about vehicles, because the hon Deputy President has moved on to other things, I just want to touch on two other issues that are specific here. The cost cutting measures included putting an end to first-class travel by Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and the cancellation of government credit cards also.


Now, hon Deputy President, the handbook which I have here, approved by Cabinet in October 2013, has not been attended to. When is this going to happen? My question was in relation to the specific figures that the Minister then spoke about, as to whether they have been complied with. Thank you, Chairperson.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, let me start with the handbook. As I said, in my initial answer to the question: The handbook is being finalised. Work - and extensive work for that matter - has been done, and continues to be done. So, it is being finalised, and soon this matter will be completed for all to see. That one is a given; it is going to be finalised.


When it comes to the specific question, say for instance, on cars: The cost limit on official cars in underway and they will be standardised. Now clearly, matters such as standardising cars and all that - when certain cars have already been in the system - is a matter that needs to play itself out to finality. So, that is also being attended to. The cost-cutting measures will also impact on this issue as well.


You also mentioned the issue of travel by Ministers. The order has been issued that Ministers should travel business class, and in the main, that is what is also happening. That is precisely what we are working on and we are proceeding with. Let me say that the cost-cutting measures are serious. We are serious about them. We are putting them into good effect, and that is an ongoing process. So, we still hope to achieve the target that we set as we move on.


The message has been sent through government structures and is sipping in. In time, we will be able to see greater numbers of cost-cutting as we proceed. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy President: This whole thing is a bit weird because whenever you have a rule or a regulation in place, there must be a sanction for a contravention. Our hon member from KwaZulu-Natal mentioned the fact that the members’ credit cards were to be removed, which of course was not the case, specifically if we think of the Premier of the Northern Cape, ‘Premier Kentucky,’ who bought R50 000 worth of Kentucky chicken but that is an example.


Then, we find the same here in the Eastern Cape representation, in this block, where I am sitting. In the fourth Parliament, a mayor from Buffalo City Metropolitan Municipality was parachuted to a higher level because of credit card irregular expenditure. There was no sanction. Now, we are getting another mayor from Buffalo City to the NCOP for the same reason. Why can’t we implement sanctions?


Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chair, my point of order is about the Rule which says that we need to show respect in the way that we address each other. The Premiers are members of this House in their absence era. To refer to a Premier as a ‘Kentucky Premier,’ for me, does not fall within the language that we are committed to exercise here.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you. There is another point of order. Ma’am!


Ms M F TLAKE: A point of order is that the members are just pulling this question outside their perimeters, because the Deputy President has actually given the answer that the matter has been reviewed and the matter is finalised. So, I do not know what is it that they want him to say more. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order, members! From the two points of orders, the second one is that even though the matters may seem out, they still relate to the subject matter which the Deputy President has responded to. So, the reply is in line. On the first point of order, where the hon Van Lingen refers to the Premier of a province as ‘Premier Kentucky’: I do think that hon Van Lingen knows that she was also out of order. You are out of order, ma’am! Can you withdraw that reference, please?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, I withdraw, but the sanctions must be in place. I want to know what sanctions have been applied to those people.




The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I think the hon members will agree that whenever there are transgressions, there are processes that have to be followed. Those processes are due process, and the due process can lead up to any form of decision: Either sanction; or whatever action. So, with regard to the incidents that the member is pointing out, I am sure and certain that processes are underway to address those.


I would not know specifically what those processes are in terms of dealing with them. What I do know is that once the proposals have been put forward and have been accepted, they are announced. They were announced by the Minister of Finance. They are being implemented through various structures of government, and we are beginning to see benefits. We are beginning to see positive results.


It is possible that here and there may well be those areas where there are either weaknesses or transgressions. They too will be addressed. They will be addressed, but there are gains in terms of what has been achieved. What we are seeing is much bigger. Those areas of weakness will be addressed as well. Thank you very much.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni, you are the fourth supplementary. Are you rising on a point of order?


Mr V E MTILENI: On a point of order, madam: Is the hon member withdrawing the Kentucky part or the entire statement that she put across?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The hon member withdrew the Kentucky part. The hon Stock!


Mr D STOCK: Hon Deputy President, a few weeks ago in the City Press, there is an article which was published around government spending as it relates to consulting fees. The figure which is associated with it is R30 billion. So, I would like the Deputy President to elaborate more, and give us the correct information, as it relates to government spending when it comes to consulting fees. Thank you.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Stock, you are bringing a new question up. The Deputy President is addressing the matter of cost cuttings, which were announced in terms of 2013 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement of the then Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan. I am wondering if you do not rather want to put that as a new question to the Deputy President. The consultancies, and whatever, were outside the cost-cutting measure if I can remember well. Do you not rather want to write a question to the Deputy President on that matter?


Mr D STOCK: Hon Chairperson: let me try to rephrase my question in less than a second. I was trying to find out from the Deputy President: What strategies are being put in place by the government to ensure that it intensifies measures as it relates to cost cutting with regard to consultation fees? However, if you rule out a possibility that ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I will allow the second restructured question. Deputy President!


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The issue of utilisation of consultants was ... [Interjections.]


Mr J W W JULIUS: There is no consistency, Chairperson. Perhaps it is because he is an ANC member. You allowed a member to have a second bite at it and restructure his question while you said it is a new question. I get the feeling that the ANC came here to shield the Deputy President from answering questions. The public wants to know: Why has President Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir left the country? Why did you flout our Constitution? [Interjections.] That is what we want to know! You came here to shield the Deputy President as always!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Julius! Hon Julius! Hon Julius! Order! Order, hon members! That may be your feeling, sir. In fact, I am consistent. This is not the first time that a member has put a supplementary question and been given the opportunity to redirect or to rephrase it.


The question you put is a question which was not disallowed because it was not formulated in the correct manner. It is a question which I disallowed because it is a matter which the courts have ordered an investigation on. That is the real reasons why that question was disallowed. So, there is consistency here!


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, the issue of utilisation of consultants has been raised by a number of key players in our country. The Auditor-General raised it prominently and the Minister of Finance has also raised it as a key area that needs to be addressed.


Measures are being taken now to make sure that we use consultants much less than we have done in the past. Quite often, if we look around and if we focus on the skill base that we have in government, we will find that there are people in government who can be used to produce those types of reports, those types of initiatives and what consultants often do.


As we proceed into the future, we are going to be seeing less utilisation of consultants because that is an area where we want to reduce and cut costs quite substantially. So, we will see a great improvement. I am not able to put a figure to it but it is something that is being focused on. Thank you.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The hon Mtileni; the last supplementary!


Mr V E MTILENI: Mr Deputy President, I am happy that you are talking about cost cutting. I just want to make you aware, or maybe you may already have been aware, that Limpopo Province is utilising almost R200 million per month on office space leases. We questioned that matter many times and nothing was done about it.


I just want to know if you could be in a position, now, to perhaps come out with a clear answer, as to: What actually happened with the Limpopo issue? There are vacant offices which are abandoned as white elephants in the former homelands. They are in state of dilapidation. The Public Works department has also neglected them. I just want to know for interest sake, and perhaps for public knowledge: What exactly are you doing on that issue, Mr Deputy President? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I may not be able to give specifics on Limpopo, as such, in relation to their utilisation of those offices that are in the former homelands. What I am able to say though is that the issue of asset utilisation on an efficient basis is an area where we would like to see cost cutting taking place as well. So, it is an area of focus to look at the various assets that we have - be they buildings; be they motor vehicle; and a whole lot of others – to see the extent to which those costs can be brought down and where we can save money.


So, in Limpopo, and indeed in all other provinces, the same will be focused on. Now that you have raised it more sharply, we will also be looking at how best the province of Limpopo can utilise these assets more effectively and efficiently to reduce costs. Thank you very much for raising it.


Provincial Growth and Development Strategies


9.         Mr S J Mohai (Free State: ANC) asked the Deputy President:


(1)        Whether there are any indications that South Africa is aligning the Provincial Growth and Development Strategies with the National Development Plan; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;


(2)        whether there is any structured coordination in this regard; if not, (a) what are the areas that require strengthening and (b) what role can the National Council of Provinces play as a House responsible for co-operative government and intergovernmental relations in South Africa; if so, what are the relevant details?                                                                       CO327E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, government has adopted the National Development Plan, NDP, as its long-term plan to achieve a number of objectives and, specifically, to eliminate poverty, unemployment and to reduce inequality in our country by 2030. The planning framework of government, in this regard, is the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, which serves as the first five-year building block to give full meaning and effect to the NDP.


As I indicated earlier, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has established a process through which departmental plans are assessed to ensure that there is alignment with the MTSF and the NDP itself. This process takes place on an annual basis. Measures have been put in place to ensure that the five-year strategic plans and annual plans of all national and provincial departments are aligned to the Medium-Term Strategic Framework.

The Treasury Regulations have been amended to require all departments to submit their draft plans to the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation to enable the department to review whether the plans are in line with both the spirit, as well as the letter of the MTSF. This should happen before they are submitted to Parliament.


Offices of the Premier in provinces also have a responsibility to ensure that the provincial growth and development strategies and provincial departments’ strategic and annual performance plans support the implementation of the NDP. There is much that the National Council of Provinces can do to ensure that there is alignment in terms of what is happening at national and provincial level. Through its oversight role, the NCOP should satisfy itself that departmental plans and budgets support the implementation of the NDP.


It is well placed to ensure that there is alignment between national and provincial plans with regard to the NDP proposals as they impact on the MTSF. Specifically, the NCOP’s focus should be on areas of concurrent responsibility, such as health, education and housing. Provincial delegates should be able to report on the work being done in their respective provinces to implement the NDP and to identify opportunities to do – what I believe is very important and which is one of the reasons the NCOP was set up, is to make sure that the co-operative governance trajectory that we are on really bears fruit and is effective. In this regard, it is in relation to sharing experiences, learning from each other and making sure that one province does not make the same mistakes that other provinces have made.

The NDP – and the work done by the National Planning Commission – has introduced a new way of approaching government-wide planning and government-wide co-ordination and implementation. This is the great benefit of the NDP because the NDP has introduced our country to a culture of national planning, more centralised planning, and planning that is done on our behalf, with our co-operation and participation, by experts, people who know their field of work who have now produced this plan for us with our active participation.


Because of the unique position that the NCOP occupies in our intergovernmental system, it has an important role to play in shaping this new approach. I would say that if we ever wanted a structure that can shape the implementation of the NDP throughout the country, at provincial level as well, but co-ordinated at a national level, it is the NCOP. This is the body that can enable us to do so. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr S J MOHAI: Chairperson, the response by the Deputy President is most welcome. I do agree that the NDP is a compelling vision for the future of South Africa. Alignment with provinces is critical, and the MTSF provides a framework with a clear set of actions to advance and achieve Vision 2030, as the Deputy President said.


Most importantly, Chair, the role of the NCOP is being reaffirmed as the voice of provinces. The NCOP serves as an intersection of the spheres of government to identify high-impact projects and monitor the policy objectives thereof. I think it is important that we, in the NCOP, identify high-impact projects to monitor their policy of objectives.


The question that I want to raise as a follow-up to the Deputy President is that, as the Deputy President spelled out that long-term planning is critical if we are to succeed as a country to address the triple challenge of unemployment, poverty and inequality, what is the response of provinces with regard to the establishment of these requisite structures to develop planning capacity? Also, what strides are being made in this regard? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, we have found, in the main, provinces to be quite co-operative and even, as the NDP was crafting its plans, a number of provinces did set up their own provincial planning commissions. Many of those provinces started getting to grips not only with the overarching national plan but with the specific challenges that face their own provinces. We saw a great development, indeed, where most of those provinces started focusing on areas that they needed to start planning on. Whilst the National Development Plan provided an overarching template and framework to enable provinces to craft their plans on, they then started dealing with the specifics, specifics that relate to their own economies, their own social challenges, and many other things that many have started to do.

So, we have found government to be co-operative and collaborative and working extremely well, particularly with those provinces that have taken to the task with a great deal of enthusiasm. Apart from that, we have also found that provinces do co-operate at a number of levels. There is a structure called the President’s Co-ordinating Council, where the President, as the executive head, brings together provinces, as well as the Ministers at national level. Through this structure, a lot of collaborative processes do happen. A lot of co-operation happens, and for me, the most important part is the sharing of experiences, the sharing of ideas, and the sharing of visions going forward.


In the past in this House, I have spoken about some of the initiatives that provinces undertake. For instance, in KwaZulu-Natal, they have come up with a project that they call Sukuma Sakhe. In North West, they call it Setsokotsane. In Gauteng, they have crafted their own, and indeed many other provinces have come up with initiatives. All this happens because there is a great deal of collaboration, co-operation, meetings, and sharing of information on an ongoing basis.


The NDP gives us that great opportunity to streamline our planning processes, to make sure that the products that will come out and impact on the lives of our people at provincial level are more meaningful and will have a greater impact. So, in answering the question directly, there is a great deal of work that is being done at provincial level, and there is a great deal of co-operation. As our experience in governance grows, we deepen our work, and we deepen what we do on an ongoing basis. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy President: As you said, the provinces should align them with the growth and development strategies of the NDP. What steps, if any, will be taken against provinces that do not align themselves with these provincial growth and development strategies in the NDP? If none will be taken, what are the reasons for not taking action against these provinces?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the good thing with co-operative governance, as I indicated and without repeating myself, is that we are able to get, through the NCOP, as well as other structures, Minmec meetings, as well the President’s Co-ordinating Council that I was speaking about, provinces to benchmark what they are doing against each other to see what progress is being made in various other places. Through that, their own knowledge base grows. Their own awareness of doing things that are consequential is also growing. They are aware that there are consequences to actions that they either take or do not take.


The co-operative governance system that we have is one that is not necessarily punitive. It is a system that is encouraging, that prods people along, that enables all of us to grow together, to develop together, and to help each other on the development trajectory. That process of governance is what we appropriated or what we embrace through our own Constitution, and it is a process that we believe is working. It is working well, and I have seen quite a lot of progress with provinces that may have had a number of weaknesses in certain areas, but when they interface with other provinces, and when they see how other provinces are doing things better, they also begin to learn. They are extremely keen to learn. In fact, they are represented in this body at the premier level. The premiers actively come and participate in this process. So, for me, this is a very important process, which all of us need to encourage.


It is important that this structure should be the one that encourages our provinces, our premiers and our MECs to strive towards the best level of performance and demonstrate to them that this is precisely what will achieve our national objectives, demonstrate precisely that, if we want the NDP to gain traction and to have meaning, and to be effective, we have to work together. That is why the nomenclature we have used is co-operative governance, and that underpins the way that we should do things in the democratic South Africa. Thank you. [Applause.]


Dr Y C VAWDA: Chair, currently, there exists a huge discrepancy between rich and poor in South Africa. We need to redress this situation as a matter of urgency. The NDP is premised on the acceptance that inequality will persist, at least until 2030. To counter this, the NDP proposes to create about 11 million new jobs but acknowledges that these jobs will be low-paying jobs doing very little to address the issues of inequality.


Is this not in contradiction, hon Deputy President, to the New Growth Path and the Industrial Policy Action Plan, these which seek to reinvigorate the economy through manufacturing and, especially, through high-quality jobs that will pay our people acceptable salaries, decent salaries, that will help to lift our people out of the poverty they are living in?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the hon member has raised an important issue about the approach that we should have to job creation. Indeed, the National Development Plan anticipates that we will have created 11 million jobs by 2030. With that, we will have reduced our unemployment rate quite substantially, and we are confident that that is achievable.


In order to get there, we have to take a number of steps. We have to have an economy that is growing, an economy that is creating jobs. All that needs to be underpinned by improving our skills base. Right now, the skills base that we have – a number of our people haven’t got all those skills that can get them to accede to the very high levels of earning capacity. That is where we want them to be. We want our people to earn decent wages, to have decent jobs and decent wages. That is precisely what we aim to achieve.


Are we on the way there? I would say, yes. We are on the way there. We can see the skills acquisition amongst our people improving and, indeed, in the workplaces, many working people are improving their skills. Their salary levels are rising, and we want to see more and more of that. Hence, the huge investment we are making in skills acquisition in education.


Yes, some of the jobs that will be created will be low-skilled jobs. Many economies have that, but we also want to target high-skilled jobs so that many of our people should have good salaries. If you take that dual approach that we are going to grow our economy, and those people who enter in low-skilled jobs should be accelerated to higher level skills and should start earning higher wages, then it is a tide that we want to see raising many of our people to higher levels of income. Is this achievable? I believe it is. If we work together, and if all the stakeholders in our country work together to achieve this, it is doable.


Currently, we are busy looking at the issue of a national minimum wage. The partners in Nedlac are involved in negotiations to look at what level that minimum wage will be pegged. It will depend on the outcome of those negotiations. Active steps are being taken to address precisely the point the member raised, and where that level will be pegged is something that we will all await to see. The trajectory we want to follow is that of making sure the working people in our country earn a decent wage, that the working people in our country have decent working conditions, that the working people in our country are able to lead a decent life. That is what we want. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, the Deputy President said that all efforts are being made to ensure that we walk together, that we grow together on our developmental path. Can you also draw a synopsis of how the NDP correlates with the alignment in the department and how it is being monitored? Do we perhaps know whether the same alignment could be happening at the level of the province through the provincial planning commissions, and how are they aligned as we maintain the same process down to the provinces? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, what I do know is that our provinces, having accepted the whole culture of planning, are now doing everything to achieve what is being done at national level. At a national level, we are aligning what departments are doing with the Medium-Term Strategic Framework. Similarly, at the provincial level, that is precisely what we also want to see – that whatever we do, we should do in terms of a plan. The provinces are even in a much better position because they will have the National Development Plan and their own provincial plans and, having done that, they should be able to measure, monitor and assess their own performance. They should be able to do precisely what is happening at the national level.


This is where you see the efficacy of having set up the Ministry of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation to ensure that we can measure what we are doing, rather than just to steam ahead without being able to measure and assess what we are doing. That is precisely what a number of provinces have started doing. In time, all the provinces will be doing exactly the same. Recently, I was in a meeting of the President’s Co-ordinating Council, and the provinces that reported were demonstrating a deep level of planning, and a deep level of adherence to the plan and the monitoring and evaluating of that. As one listened to all that, one could sense – and get a good sense – that progress is being made even at the provincial level because the provinces are beginning to deal very effectively with the challenges that our people face. That gave me a great deal of hope, knowing that we are not just talking at a national level but that, at the provincial level, a lot is happening.


I see this cascading, as it has started doing as well, with the Back to Basics campaign that the Ministry has started. We are beginning to see our cities, our metros, are getting to grips with planning and evaluating precisely what they have planned to do. The whole process of governance in our country is going to be improving very positively, as we move ahead, but we had to start somewhere. Where we started may not have been ideal for everyone, but where we are going to is 2030 when everything will be so well aligned, when our government structures will be working so well, when we will be able to focus on the needs of our people, making sure that we achieve their aspirations. That is the destination we are heading towards, and this is a destination that we will reach. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Employment Tax Incentive


10.        Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Deputy President:


Whether there is evidence that the Employment Tax Incentive has resulted in the creation of new job opportunities for young job seekers; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what evidence?                                                             CO332E


Mr V E MTILENI: It is not really a point of order. We are not done with the follow up questions. Maybe you can be able to fit me in. And I will do the last one. I think ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, no. No man. Please take you seat sir. You must count. Nthebe was number 4 in the supplementary questions. So, we are done.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The employment tax incentive is one of several critical initiatives that had been put in place to address the challenge of youth unemployment. It is intended to reduce the cost to companies of employing younger and less experienced work seekers.

Initial evidence that we are beginning gather is positive.

Preliminary data indicates that 31 825 employers have claimed approximately R2,8 billion between the implementation of the incentive on 1 January 2014 and the end of February 2015. In the month of August 2014, for which the largest amount was claimed, we can project that employers claimed the incentive for at least 274 000 employees in that month. Although the initial data is encouraging, it is too early to assess the success of this initiative.


The government committed in the legislation to a full review of the programme by December 2016, after at least two years of implementation and a reasonable period thereafter to ensure the tax returns of most employers who claim the subsidy have been submitted and verified. It is not possible to establish from our monthly or annual data the extent to which this new initiative has created jobs on a massive basis or what the evidence that we have can be attributed to job creation through this incentive.


An evaluation should, however, be able to provide a better insight into how this incentive is working. This is something that we believe should be done as this is a new initiative where we have been testing and piloting a system. Ultimately, the success of these efforts will be determined by how government, business and labour are able to work together to positively change the fortunes of young job seekers in our country.


We need to complement these initiatives like the employment tax incentive with a whole lot of other measures such as vocational guidance, mentoring support and mechanisms to match people’s skills to appropriate opportunities. We should be broadening supplier development programmes, entrepreneurship incubators, and employment services and workseeker support as well.


In this regard, we call on employers to rise to the challenge by taking on first time employees and providing them with effective management support and mentorship. If as many employers as possible in our economy were able to rise to this challenge and accede to this proposal we will be able to get as many young people as possible into employment so that they can learn skills, they can be au fait with the world of work and the valuable skills and knowledge and experience they would learn would position them in a much better way to be able to get into gainful employment.


If young people are given proper support and direction, all of us, especially employers, will discover that the energy and the enthusiasm of these young people can be harnessed to improve the effectiveness for the businesses that the employers are running.

While we will always pursue greater improvement in the processes supporting the incentive, we must celebrate the experience that is being gained by thousands of young people, throughout the country, who are able to put their foot in the doors of employment institutions, companies or even state-owned enterprises where they are employed.


This exposure experience not only changes their lives but is changing our economy for the better because what it does is to prepare young people for the world of work so that when they finally get their fulltime employment opportunities they are better prepared and better positioned and they walk into new positions not as novices but as people who know how the world of work functions. Thank you.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, hon Deputy President that answer is very difficult to stick with one question because you have raised so many issues that I would like some more clarity on. However, let me stick to what I would like to ask. In your answer you made it sure that the time has come that we have to admit that the government’s flagship youth employment intervention, the employment tax incentives or the ETI as we know it, is not enough to combat youth unemployment in South Africa.


We would like to know if there is evidence that these employers – this 31 825 employers that employed more than 274 000 young people – is there evidence that they are indeed hired and that they are skilled or is it simply a fact that some of these employers just employ them to enjoy the tax relief that is being offered and that already stands at R2 billion and counting. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I have indicated in my reply it is still too early to tell. We will be able to do so once the full tax returns have been filed and verified and as we said in the legislation, embedded in that law is the whole process of review and evaluation. We will be able to evaluate but what we can say at the preliminary level is that the take up of this scheme has been good, it shows a positive trend. A number of 275 000 young people take in into employment is not small in an economy like ours that has not been producing the number of jobs that we had wanted it to produce.


It is tempting to say yes, a number of those possibly could have been given more fulltime employment but we cannot say so right now. If we were to work on the evidence that we have gathered from the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, process where many of our people get into job opportunities that are offered through the EPWP; many of them had been able to say that it prepared them well for employment, it positioned them much better so that when they go job seeking they are in a much better position to get into job position.


A number of surveys that have been conducted – if you are having difficulty in hearing me maybe I should face you because you are sitting here and really seriously trying to hear what I am saying but there is always this disturbing noise that is coming through. Maybe I should look at you because in that way you will be able to extract from me the answer that you want. So I will do so.


Ke nnete, ditaba di tšwa mahlong. [Actions speak louder than words.]


If one way to glean from the experience or surveys that we have had with EPWP, we found that a lot of those people who get into EPWP without much experience are prepared for the world of work through that process and many of them have recorded that they have been able to get employment. What does this type of programme do? This type of programme is almost like an internship, a learnership, a mentorship, an entry level type of job which was meant to be. What it does is to absorb and take in people who otherwise would never have seen the door of a company to work. It prepares them, it moulds them, it crafts them properly so that they can have a better opportunity to get into work.


Many people may dismiss this and say this is meaningless and what have you. It is life changing for the people who participate in this programme. The people who are part of this programme find that it changes their lives, and that is what matters. Changing the lives of ordinary people is what we are all about and what we are focusing on. Thank you.


Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, the hon Deputy President made reference to youth and very extensively to youth employment. At the policy conference of my party, the ANC, it is also the one where we say that it is important that youth becomes employers themselves and do that through the establishment of businesses. Now, my question is particularly related to small businesses. Could you help us to understand how this employment tax incentive will benefit small businesses in our country? I want to say that the noise that I hear behind me is just noise, we are not here to make noise, we have work ethics. We are here all the time and we are prepared to listen to you even above the noise.


Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson on a point of order: Could you kindly ask the hon member if he was making reference to me? And if he was I have the right under the rules to be able to respond to that.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mathys that is not a point of order.


Ms L MATHYS: No, it is a point of order Chairperson. If he was, he was he was referring to me because I was talking in the ... [Inaudible.] ... background.




Ms L MATHYS: So, I am asking the Chairperson to please kindly ask him if he was and if he wasn’t it is fine I am going to sit down. If he wasn’t referring to me then I have a right to be able to respond. However, I am asking the Chairperson to ask him.




Ms L MATHYS: Yes, my Chairperson!




Ms L MATHYS: Are you going to address me while I am sitting?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes, I will, because I am addressing the whole House. We have to accept, as this House, that members of this House have what the hon Members of this Parliament have been insisting on, that during the debates they do have freedom of speech. Hon Makue referred to the noise and he did not mention your name and, therefore, I do not think that we should waste the House’s time in getting a response from him. Therefore, we proceed. Hon Deputy President we give the floor to respond to the question as posed by the hon Makue.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed the issue of what I would call entrepreneurship – promoting entrepreneurship amongst young people is critical and it is also at the centre of the policies that we want to see promoted and implemented. The employment tax incentive can easily be accessed by small medium enterprises. In fact if you were to look at the list of companies that participate you will find that many of them are small businesses that are accessing this tax because it is a very effective tax enabling them to bring in young people to help boast their own businesses. At the same time young people are able to learn skills and to know the way withal of how the business world functions.


This is where a wonderful intersection between what the government seeks to achieve and what we are doing at policy implementation level. On the one hand we instituted this employment incentive for employers and indeed for young job seekers but at the same time we have set up a Ministry for small businesses. Through that Ministry projects are being implemented to assist young people who get into business. Indeed, quite a number of them are also being assisted through the National Youth Development Agency that is also focusing – on a laser beam basis – on young people, helping young people and their companies to succeed to be set up through mentorships, incubation and a whole range of other measures.


A number of projects had been set up and continue to be set up to promote youth employment through these incentives to make sure that young people are also able to take up opportunities to create their own businesses, to learn how to run businesses, how to sustain businesses and how to manage businesses. With all these initiatives, I am sure that a tide will be seen rising on an ongoing basis where young people will be able to access great deal of advance forward benefits. They will be able to move forward. This is obviously inspired by the challenge that we face at the moment and we are responding to that challenge. Our response to youth unemployment challenge is spawning a number of initiatives, programmes and a number of projects through which we are bringing young people in to be actively involved in: advancing themselves; skilling themselves and; to gain employment experience on an ongoing basis. We are putting forward a sweet; a real full menu for young people to get active, to do something to advance their own lives. Thank you very much.


Mna S G THOBEJANE: Modulasetulo wa Ntlo ya Bosetšhaba ya Diprofense, mohl Motlatšamopresidente, ke nagana gore ke boetapele bja go swana le bjo bja lekgotla la geno la ANC feela bjoo bo ka tšeago matsapa a go lekana le ao le a tšeago. Go tloša Afrika Borwa moo e bego e le gona, go e fihliša mo e lego gona gonabjale, e be e se papadi. E be ele mošomo wo mogologolo woo o bego o nyaka batho ba maikemišetšo ba go ba le maikarabelo go setšhaba. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)


[Mr S G THOBEJANE: Hon Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon Deputy President, I think that it can only be this calibre of leadership in the ANC that can put so much effort into transforming South Africa to the country it is today, as compared to what it was before. And that is not a child’s play. It took a lot of effort, hard work, dedication and commitment to the citizens of the country.]

Having said so, Deputy President, I want to check whether the employment tax incentive have lead to the displacement of existing employment as it was echoed and brightened the people of South Africa, in particular, the labour organisations. I just wanted to check whether the preliminary results are saying that they were correct to have that fear or you are in a better position where you are now. Thank you very much.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As I have indicated, we are yet to do a full review of this whole incentive. A number of other processes are underway to review it to do a proper survey. Right now we are not able to say that it has led to a displacement. However, in any event we are confident that it has not led to any displacement of currently employed workers because that is regulated by the Labour Relations Act.


If such unfair treatment of currently employed workers were to be done at the behest of this tax incentive, those employers would be caught out and will be dealt with through the Labour Relations Act. So, I do not believe that that is the case much as we are still to do a proper evaluation.


Mo go yela ya mathomo yeo o bego o bolela ka yona, seo re ka se bolelago ke gore bao ba nago le mahlo, ba iponela gore Afrika Borwa ya lehono ga e sa swana le yela ya maabane. Re šetše re tšwetše pele e bile re sa tšwela pele tšatši ka tšatši, beke ka beke, kgwedi ka kgwedi, ngwaga ka ngwaga, le ngwagasome ka ngwagasome, re ya pele ga re boele morago. Ke a leboga [Magoswi.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)


[On the first issue you raised, the transformation in South Africa is quite visible. Our country is not where it was a few years ago. We have achieved a lot, and the transformation continues daily, weekly, monthly, annually and by the deacades. Forward we go, backwards never. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr W F FABER: Deputy President, how long do you want to review such a type of huge wage subsidy? We need a real youth wage subsidy to empower our youth as it is done by the Western Cape government. Why are you dodging such a youth wage subsidy – a real youth wage subsidy? It seems as if you guys are dodging it. I would like to know Deputy President, is it perhaps the unions calling the shorts on the ANC to fully implement a real youth wage subsidy?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is that a point of order Mam? Yes, Mam. Will someone put that mic on?


Ms L C DLAMINI: On a point of order: Hon Chair, I just want to check if it is parliamentary to address the hon Deputy President as you guys.


Mr W F FABER: Yes Chair, it seems as if I was interrupted. I perhaps should review and redo the whole question so that the Deputy President can really hear the cracks of the matter. Yes, I would like to know Deputy President. ... [Interjections.]



Mr W F FABER: Yes, Chair!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The point of order was that you referred to the Deputy President as you guys. And I have been asked ... [Interjections.]


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I presumed the Deputy President he is a guy like me but if he is not, I cannot say anything on that hon Chair but I ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Alright, on a point of presumption, on that point of presumption can we just withdraw from being too informal in the House?


Mr W F FABER: I will definitely withdraw that. As I was saying I was not going to ask the Deputy if he was going to dodge that question but I would like to know if they are dodging this youth wage subsidy because of unions putting pressure on the ANC government by not fully implementing a decent youth wage subsidy as is done by the Western Cape government and succeeding and actually creating jobs for the youth.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was not a guy, I am a man. [Laughter.] The last time I checked you were also a man. [Laughter.] The implementation of the employment tax incentive is underway and it is already yielding positive results that we are not ashamed of; results that we are very proud of because it is achieving the objective the objective that was set out. In time we will be able to confirm empirically based on evidence of what the actual yield has been.


Indications, as I said earlier, are that; it is showing that it is a positive project or process. In arriving at this we obviously have to consult quite extensively. We are the type of government that seeks to consult and to talk to as many stakeholders as we possibly can. Through that consultation process, by taking ideas and suggestions from a variety of stakeholders in our country, we have crafted this which is currently being implemented quite flawlessly. We will be able to confirm more fully in a year or two. We just don’t want to give out information to hoodwink people, as we want to deal with real facts and real evidence that we will put on the table. Thank you.


Support network for persons living with HIV/Aids


11.        Ms L C Dlamini (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Deputy President:


(1)        Whether the Government and the SA National Aids Council have strategies and  mechanisms  to  create  a  support  network  for  the  generation  of  young persons who (a) were born with HIV/Aids before the introduction of the Prevention of Mother-to-Child Transmission and (b) continue to raise their younger siblings after the death of their parents as a result of HIV/Aids related illnesses; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;


(2)        whether such a support network also involves dealing with the psychological effects of living with HIV/Aids; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant

details?                                                                                                           CO329E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, South Africa has a comprehensive set of programmes that have been put in place to address the needs of young people, particularly young people born with and affected by HIV. Mitigating the impact of HIV and TB on orphans, vulnerable children and the youth is listed as the subobjective of the national strategic plan on HIV, STIs and TB as crafted by the SA National Aids Council, Sanac. By partnering with funders such as the President's Emergency Plan for Aids Relief, Pepfar, and the global fund and working with various implementing NGOs in our country, we have been able to reach out to many orphans in our country, many vulnerable children right across the country with a number of initiatives to assist and support them.


Recognising the need for effective co-ordination and collaboration, in 2002, the Department of Social Development and its key strategic partners established the National Action Committee for Children Affected by HIV/Aids, Nacca. The structure that they set up, the Nacca aims to promote an enabling environment in which orphans, children and youth made vulnerable by HIV/Aids are protected, supported and cared. Through Sanac, a co-ordinating committee mechanism, we have been able to mobilise resources for NGOs and community based organisations to provide very essential and critical services. Organisations leading this work include the Networking HIV/Aids Community of South Africa, Nacosa, the National Religious Association for Social Development, NRASD, and the National Associations of Child Care Workers, NACCW.


These organisations provide a comprehensive package of prevention, care and support services appropriate for orphans and vulnerable children in carefully selected districts in all provinces of our country. The Departments of Health and Social Development use the home-and community based care and support programme to provide comprehensive health and social services to children infected and affected by HIV/Aids and their families.

In addition to psychosocial support services include material assistance, bereavement counselling and treatment adherence support. Young people with HIV are particularly vulnerable to distress that is caused by the illness itself that is also caused by the loss of loved ones and also the fear of rejection and isolation as a result of the stigma and discrimination that still persists in our country to this day towards people who are HIV-positive and suffer from Aids.


Government is putting increased emphasis on the need for psychosocial support to all these young people throughout the country. As part of these efforts, for example the Department of Health in 2012 produced a handbook for health care practitioners providing them with a basic understanding of psychosocial interventions within clinical settings. The Department of social welfare itself has also produced a conceptual framework to give government departments and NGOs guidance in developing, reviewing and implementing programmes to provide psychosocial support.


The work being done to support young people affected and infected by HIV is one of what one would call the most compelling examples of multisectoral collaboration in South Africa in relation to HIV/Aids. This is where our country has distinguished itself through this collaborative effort by setting up an entity like Sanac which is able to bring together role-players from all walks of life, organisations, disciplines and what have you. It demonstrates what is possible when government, NGOs, community based organisations, developmental agencies and donors, employers, or businesses co-ordinate their efforts to address the needs of some of the most vulnerable people in our country. And through this, we are able to say that the work that is being done in this area shows that, yes, we are a country that cares; we demonstrate care in a number of ways, and we also play out our sense of solidarity with those who are afflicted by HIV/Aids. [Applause.]


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair ...


... ngibonge kakhulu kuSekela Mengameli welive ngetimphendvulo lotiniketako kulombuto bengiwubutile. Ngisho kutsi kuyabonakala kutsi Khongolose ... [...thank you so much Deputy President of the country for your response to the question I had asked. I must say that it is evident that the ANC...]


... as the leading party in government is really a caring organisation. My follow-up question is:


... kutsi tibalo tiyakhomba kutsi kwesuleleka kwesandvulela ngculazi kubomake labancane labangaphansi kweminyaka lenge-35 kuya etulu ... [... that statistics show that the new HIV infection in young women under 35 years old...]


... it could be because of the male domination that still exists in our communities; it could also be because of the low production or accessibility of female condoms. Would you be willing, as the Chairperson of Sanac or as government, to partner with NGO who would want to contribute in this matter. Thank you.


IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI: Ngiyabonga kuwe Sihlalo nakulo ilungu elihloniphekile ngokubeka lo mbuzo mayelana nale nkinga ekhona la emphakathini.


I-Sanac yona ngokwayo, ngendlela esebenza ngayo isebenza namaqembu ahlukahlukene ngaso sonke isikhathi, isebenzisana nawo kusukela kumabhizinisi, izifundiswa, odokotela nabantu abanezinhlangano ezisemphakathini, ama-NGO kanye nama-CBO; sisebenza nabo bonke. Uma sisebenzela ukubhekana ngqo nesifo seNgculazi, siyaqinisekisa ukuthi asisebenzi sodwa ngokuzimela singuhulumeni, kanjalo noMnyango Wezempilo awusebenzi ngawodwana ngoba uyazi ukuthi ukuphela kwendlela engenza ukuba umsebenzi wethu ube negalelo ukuba sisebenze nomphakathi ukulwa ne-HIV/Aids. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you hon Chairperson and also to the hon member for the question about the problem that the community is facing.


The Sanac on its own, works with different parties all the time, it works with people ranging from businesses, academics, doctors, NGOs and CBOs; we work with all of them. When work against HIV/Aids, we ensure that we do not work on our own as government, the Department of Health does not work on its own as well because they know that we need to work with the community in order for our work to have an impact to fight against HIV/Aids.]


Other than that, we will never be able to have an impact. So, collaboration underpins the work that we are doing, and it has become part of the culture within Sanac to work on a collaborative basis, because only through collaboration can we achieve success.


Coming to ...


... izinto ezifana nokusatshalaliswa kwamakhondomu nokunakekelwa kwabantu abasha okungenzeka ukuthi bakhulelwe noma batheleleke ngegciwane leSandulela-Ngculazi ...


... yiwona umsebenzi wethu-ke lowo njenge-Sanac. Uma siqhubekela phambili, ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[... things like, the distribution of condoms and taking care of young females who might be pregnant or infected by HIV/Aids...


... that is our task as Sanac. If we continue, ...]

... we want to continue deepening our work, and we are going to be embarking on a much more vigorous campaign to tackle the increasing levels of infection as we see them. We are going to be engaging young people, and we are also going to be working with as many role-players as we possibly can. This we believe will be impactful in a number of ways in that it is when we work together, when we address this disease together that can we be more effective. So, ...


... kuphendvula umbuto wakho, sitawusebenta nabo bonkhe lesikhona kutsi sisebente nabo kute siphumelele kulomsebenti lesiwentako. [... answering your question, we will work with those we are able to work with so that we succeed in this work we are doing.]


Mme G M MANOPOLE: Ke a leboga modulasetilo yo o tlotlegang. Motlatsa Tonayo o tlotlegang, ke kopa o fatlhose Ntlo eno le Aforika Borwa ka bophara, ka ntlha ya gore bašwa ba rona ba ka fa tlase ga kgatelelo e kgolo. Jaaka o buile le wena fa o ne o araba potso ya ntlha.

... what has been the effects of all efforts to fight HIV/Aids-related stigma? (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)


[Ms G M MANOPOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, please alert this House as well as South Africa at large on the huge challenge faced by our youth. As you have mentioned in your response ...]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I missed one word – the effects of?

Ms G M MANOPOLE: A ke e boeletse. [Let me repeated it.]


What have been the effects of all efforts? There would have been so many efforts; awareness of trying to curb the stigma. So, what have been your efforts?


MOTLATSA TONA: Ke a leboga modulasetilo, re mo tirong e kgolo tota ya gore re fedise ae kgethololo e re e bonang ele teng mo gare ga batho ba bantsi mo Aforika Borwa.


Maloba re ne re le kwa Durban, go ne go tshwerwe khonferense e kgolo ya HIV/AIDS - khonferense ya AIDS ya Bosetšhaba ya rona. Pele re ya khonferenseng eo, re ile bontsha go ausi yo mongwe yo o kileng a bolawa ka tsela e e setlhogo, yo a bidiwa Gugu Dlamini. O ile a bolawa fa a tlhagisa boemo jwa gagwe, batho ba kwa a neng a nna gona ba ne ba mo konopa ka matlapa ba be ba mmolaya. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)


[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, we are working very hard to deal away with the stigma that is very rife among the South Africans.


We attended HIV/AIDS Conference in Durban – National HIV/AIDS Conference. Before then, we have shown our respect to the woman who was killed for revealing her status, Gugu Dlamini. Her community members stoned her to death.]


So, last week, we honoured and celebrated Gugu Dlamini’s life, but at the same time, we took the opportunity, with here daughter, who was 13 years old when she was killed, to relaunch our campaign against stigma and discrimination. We raised the antistigma and discrimination flag quite prominently, and we launched the campaign – the relaunch of many campaigns that we have had, because we have seen that there is still stigma in our country against people who are afflicted by HIV and Aids. It is an ongoing task; it is a task that all of us as South Africans need to engage in to ensure that the values that we were taught by the founding father of our democracy, Nelson Mandela, are upheld and inculcated into our national ethos: Values of tolerance, respect, embracing diversity and to ensure that even those people who are afflicted by HIV are seen as ordinary normal people.


This is a campaign that we will be spreading throughout the country. We will be going to every corner of the country to make sure that our people are aware that we should not discriminate against people who are afflicted by HIV/Aids.


People who have a number of other diseases: diabetes and high blood pressure are not discriminated against and this is just but one of the diseases that a number of people in our country are afflicted by. Therefore, we want to raise the level of consciousness among our people so that we should end stigma, discrimination and we should make our people more aware.

The good thing, as I conclude, is that there was a number of young people at the launch of this campaign, and indeed at the conference. We believe that through young people, we will be able to spread the message, and as Sanac embarks on this new commitment to rid our country of new infections and get as many as possible who are afflicted to get into treatment, we will also be addressing the issue of stigma and discrimination against people who are HIV-positive. Thank you. [Applause.]


Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, hon Deputy President, the most devastating impact of HIV/Aids on children who have been orphaned as a result of the death of their parents is the life of poverty they are forced to live. The question I am asking is: What is the government doing to place these children in suitable accommodation, institutes, etc? In addition, shouldn’t there be a special project or programme in place, perhaps run by the Deputy President’s Office because this is something very sore and indeed sad in South Africa that children are placed in very desperate positions, as a result? Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, in relation to giving attention to the challenges and problems that are faced by children who are orphaned because their parents have died of HIV/Aids, at times we often find that some of those children themselves are infected, we have placed a lot of reliance on the community support that we find in many of our communities. We found that the spirit of ubuntu is quite prevalent in our communities, and all that needs to happen is to harness it, to direct it to make sure that it is able to respond to the needs and the challenges that our people face, particularly young children.


In many communities we often find that there are caregivers, families that are able to look after those children, and in some cases, take them in, and in other places, yes there are homes that have been set up. A number of these children do go there, but many of them remain in the communities; there are foster parents and the Social Development department, including the Health department, has embarked on massive drive to train caregivers to make sure that they are given the necessary training, the support and the mentorship so that they are able to give a great deal of care to these orphaned children – and it is spreading.


Now, when we use community based projects, for instance Sukuma Sakhe in KwaZulu–Natal and in other provinces as well – they have unique ones - we find that the communities themselves get to know the condition of people in nearly every household in their street because the Sukuma Sakhe campaign or project cascades right to the bottom, street or door-to-door, or household level. So, people who are adversely affected by a number social challenge are then known and the community is then able to setup structures that give them assistance. But, government itself, acting through a number community based agencies, has been able to respond.


From the Sanac point of view, as we work with many community based organisations, we are able to, through those organisations, reach out to those orphans, meet the challenge and make sure that South Africa truly plays out its very important value, which is ubuntu, and the ubuntu principle. The ubuntu value then is played out to a point where we are able to take care of these young people.


Obviously, we need to do more; we need to spread it more and more so that none f these young people who are orphaned are without care, but more importantly, we want all those young people to be in school, learning through our early childhood development centres so that in the end they are able to take care of themselves as they grow up in education. Thank you.


Ms M F TLAKE: Hon Deputy President, since you are the Chairperson of Sanac, which is a nationally based institution, I would like to know: What does the NDP say with regard to provincial Aids councils that have got to be based in the districts, under the leadership of premiers in provinces?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, Sanac is structured, not only at the national level; it is also structured at provincial level, but more importantly at district and local level. At the national level, the Deputy President is the chair, and as cochair, I have Steve Letsike who comes from a community based organisation, and together we provide that national leadership at that level. But, as it moves at the provincial level, the premier of every province is the chair of Sanac at that provincial level, and the mayor, for instance the district mayor or the metro mayor is the chair and the mayor at the local level is meant to be the chair.


All of us, working together with community based people as our cochairs, demonstrating that we share the responsibility between government and the communities, where our organisations and, indeed our people live, through those structures, we are meant to have leadership, ownership, responsibility and accountability for our Aids efforts processes and work.


It is through this that in a number of places where these structures work well, we are able to make progress. I must admit that these structures don’t work as well as we would like them to work in other places, and this is precisely what we addressed recently in our strategy meeting to try and reinvigorate those structures so that they work much more effectively. And where they work, we find, I refer again to KwaZulu-Natal, because the impact on HIV and Aids in KwaZulu-Natal has been a product of the Sukuma Sakhe campaign that they set up.


Through that, they have been able to have the greatest impact, yes, KwaZulu-Natal carries the biggest burden in our country, - as our country carries the biggest burden in world, - but they have responded very positively and their structures are working so well.

Last year, - or was it early this year - we were able to bring provinces together to come and learn what KwaZulu-Natal has been doing. We are going to do exactly the same thing again so that we can learn from the experiences that KwaZulu-Natal has been going through, as they have been making a really positive impact on dealing with the Aids challenge.


So, we will be learning from each other, and to answer your question more directly, we want those structures to work because they are the one hope that our country has in as far as dealing with the HIV pandemic as effectively as possible. Soon, as you know, we want to see close on to 5 million people on ARVs. And this we will be able to do only if we are able to work through the various structures, strengthen them and make them more focused and committed to the task at hand. Thank you. [Applause.]


Wage inequalities


12.        Ms T J Mokwele (North West: EFF) asked the Deputy President:


Why has the Government maintained an apartheid practice (details furnished) such as labour brokerage that materially contribute to wage inequalities?                                                         CO333E


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Constitution of our country promotes an individual’s rights to choose his or her trade, occupation or profession freely. This is set out in section 25 of our Constitution. Similarly, the Constitution protects fair labour practice. This is also set out in the same section, section 25, of our Constitution. As government we have the responsibility of enforcing, and where necessary, balancing this rights. In doing so, government has resolved to act decisively against abuses associated with labour broking. The Labour Relations Act of 2013 as amended responds to the increased informalisation of labour; it regulates labour broking by prohibiting abuse and protecting vulnerable workers and regulates genuine temporary employment.


Employees employed through a temporary employment service, also known as labour brokers, now enjoy far greater protection than what is currently available to them. There are also limitations placed on when such employment structures can be abused. The Employment Equity Amendment Act of 2013 protects equal pay for work of equal value. The law prohibits employers to pay employees less wages because of their status. Therefore it will be unfair discrimination if an employer pays low wages to employees who do similar work simply because of the nature of their contractual arrangements.


If hon members are aware of any abuse relating to labour broking, I will encourage them to report such incidents as it can be possible that some of our working people are being exploited through these initiatives. South Africa has developed a progressive and robust labour system. It has improved the basic conditions of employment for millions of working people in our country. The latest amendments further strengthen this system and significantly reduce the potential for abuse and exploitation. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]


Ms N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetulo [Chairperson], to the hon Deputy President, why is the ANC refusing to implement its 2007 Polokwane resolution to abolish labour brokers that directly and materially contribute to wage inequalities. It has been going on for eight years now. The ANC is very quick to implement its decisions or resolutions on matters such as Nkandla, yet issues that impact heavily on our people such as the abolishment of labour brokers remain just a resolution eight years later.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, what I outlined in my earlier input in answering the question gives substance to the processes that we have embarked upon to give protection to our people. And we have made sure that abuses associated with labour broking are decisively acted against. And we have taken to heart the concerns of working people in our country and in this regard we have increased the level of protection to working people, made sure that abuse that many of them have been subjected to through labour broking is actually something that they should not be suffering from.


And as I have indicated, if there are incidents of labour broking that violates our people’s rights we would be most grateful to hear those views so that they can be dealt with as quickly as possible. Thank you. [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Makue? Hon Mathys, are you standing on a point of order?


Ms L MATHYS: The Deputy President didn’t answer the follow-up question. The follow-up question was directly speaking to the resolution that the ANC took in its Polokwane conference to abolish labour brokering, not to downplay. We are not talking about the effects of workers rights, et cetera. Why has its resolution not been implemented? That is what the question is all about. And I ask that that the Deputy President address that question please. Thank you.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order. Hon Mathys, there was a question to the Deputy President. He has given a response. This House and yourself do not have that authority to say, by hook or crook or knop-kirie you must answer the way want you to answer. He has given a response, reiterating his primary response. We proceed. Hon Makue?


Ms L MATHYS: [Inaudible.]




Ms L MATHYS: I am saying the question was not even answered. We were talking about the resolution that the ANC took, and why has it not been implemented eight years later? There was nothing in the Deputy President’s response that spoke to that.




Ms L MATHYS: But it hasn’t been answered.




Ms L MATHYS: How could you say that ... Okay, can you work with me here please, hon Chair. So, can we say that the Deputy President has not answered the question, but has decided to respond the way he feels; because he is not talking to the question that we have submitted. I am happy to accept the declaration that the Deputy President does not feel comfortable answering why the ANC has not implemented its resolution. But it must be said. And it’s fine, we will ... [Interjections.]




Ms L MATHYS: Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, Hon Dlamini, are you on a point of order?


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I am rising on a point of order. The hon ... [Interjections.]




Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, the hon Deputy President has answered the question. The hon member is deliberately misleading the society by saying what she is saying. He did answer the question. If she doesn’t accept what was said, it’s her own problem. But the question was answered, hon Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, no bickering in this House. Hon members, the bickering can be taken outside. [Interjections.] The hon Deputy President responded to a question which referred him to a resolution of the ANC. He then put in a response. I am not competent sitting here, M’am, to determined whether he is responding to the Mangaung or the Polokwane resolution. What I am competent on doing – if you will keep quiet and listen – is that the Deputy President listened to a question and responded to that question.


Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, to the Deputy President, in your response you referred to the 2013 amendment of the Labour Relations Act. My question would be, Deputy President, could you share with us how this amendment impacted on labour brokering? I would want to believe that it did, indeed.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, it has impacted on labour brokering, particularly on areas of the exploitation and the abuse that our working people were suffering from. This is precisely what the law and the Act has responded to. And that’s precisely what the government sought to regulate. So, in this regard we are able to say, yes, this amendment has had an impact on this. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, that then concludes the last Question posed to the Deputy President for the day. We thank you, Deputy, for availing yourself to come and respond to these questions. Thank you, Sir.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. [Applause.]




Ms L MATHYS: Yes, I am rising on Rule 81, Chairperson.




Ms L MATHYS: Hon Chair, I am rising on Rule 81. I rise to move, since the Deputy President hasn’t left Council yet, that the Deputy President informs the Council whether he has received a copy of the Marikana report, officially or unofficially. And, if he has indeed received it, to what extent is the Deputy President implicated in it. Finally ...




Ms L MATHYS: ... and the remedial action ... [Interjections.] ... I am not done yet ...




Ms L MATHYS: ... I am on Rule 81. I am standing ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are done, because you rose on the issue of Rule 81 which is privileged. You are not giving us any motion of substance. Secondly, you are raising a question after the Question Time has been concluded. The advice that I am giving to you is, put that into a question to the Deputy President before the next deadline.






(Policy debate)


Vote No 16—Health:


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, my colleague the Deputy Minister of Health, Dr Joe Phaahla, my colleagues Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Social Services, hon Dlamini, hon members of the Select Committee on Social Services, my colleagues, MECs of the department of health from various provinces, hon members of this House, distinguished guests, good afternoon.


I am presenting this Budget Speech at the time when the world, through the United Nations General Assembly, is on the verge of ushering a new and promising era in healthcare. The end of this year signals the end of the eight Millennium Development Goals, MDGs, declared by the United Nations in the year 2000. A new set of goals, called Sustainable Development Goals, SDGs, will be declared later this year. It is generally believed that MDG 4, 5 and 6 are unfinished business and need to continue and become part of the new SDGs. As you know, MDG 4 is about reducing child mortality, MDG 5 is about reducing maternal mortality and MDG 6 is about reducing HIV and Aids, Tuberculosis, TB, and Malaria.


As South Africa, we have spoken a lot and dished out a lot of data and outlined programmes related to MDG 4 and 5. On MDG 6, we have also engaged a lot on issues of HIV/Aids and Malaria. Today, I want to engage on issues pertaining to TB. When the President presented his state of the nation address early this year, he gave instructions in this regard, and I quote:


Over the past five years, government has scored significant gains in healthcare. This year, we are going to launch a massive programme to turn the tide against TB, with special focus on three vulnerable communities, offenders at correctional services facilities, mineworkers and communities in mining towns.


Just how big is this problem of TB in our country? Statistics SA has reported that TB is number one underlying cause of death in South Africa. Of course, we know that 80% of deaths of HIV positive people are attributable to TB.


It is now common knowledge, that Ebola is now regarded as the biggest scourge health systems around the world have had to contend with in recent times. We all know that West Africa was the hardest hit. Everybody was scared and deeply fearful of what would happen to them and their families because of Ebola.


At the height of this fear last year, I shared a platform on national TV with Prof Shabir Mahdi, the Director of the National Institute of Communicable Diseases, NICD. He advised South Africans not to be unduly scared of Ebola because, he said, the likelihood of contracting it is very slim. He said, however, if you are a South African be more scared of TB because you are very much likely to contract it. The public’s response to him on TV through social media was swift and brutal. They accused him of misleading the nation. Some even ventured that he is trying to fool them because he believed that they know nothing because they are not professors. Such was the public’s response to his advice.


Now, who was right? Well, a year after Prof Mahdi gave that advice, nobody in South Africa died of Ebola, but 40 000 people died of TB. But I am afraid this thing is still not ringing a bell in many people’s minds. The figure of 40 000 who died of TB in the last year is actually a massive improvement from 2009, when 70 000 of people died of TB. So, there has been a massive drop of TB deaths by as much as 43%. Regardless of this massive improvement and progress, TB is still the biggest killer. This is not only in South Africa; we share this problem with 21 other nations around the world. Together with these nations, we make up 80% of the total TB of the world. The five Bricks - Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa - countries alone constitute 56% of the TB and 60% of multidrug- resistant TB, MDR-TB.


In July 2013, I was elected the chairperson of the International Board of Stop TB Partnership in a meeting held in Canada. The offices of Stop TB Partnership are in Geneva, Switzerland. Our job as a board is to devise strategies to combat TB under the auspices of the World Health Organisation, WHO. Since charity begins at home, I thought that I must lead the board by example and make sure that South Africa is ahead of the pack in implementing programmes to combat and stop TB.


I wish then to dedicate my speech today, to the fight against TB in order to free our country of this scourge. We have analysed the situation very well and we understand the task at hand. Our analysis shows that there are three groups in South Africa that are typically vulnerable to TB: Firstly, inmates in correctional services - all 160 000 of them; secondly, mineworkers, especially those working in gold mines - about 500 000 of them; and thirdly, people who stay in peri-mining communities, and we have about 600 000 of them in six districts with intense mining activities. Hence we wanted to know, which districts have a very high prevalence of TB based on those vulnerable groups.


Our analysis and figures show that the worst affected district in the country is Lejweleputswa in the Free State, around Welkom and Virginia, the second worst is Kenneth Kaunda District in North West, the third is Waterberg in Limpopo, the fourth is West Rand in Gauteng, the fifth is Bojanala in Rustenburg, and the sixth is Sekhukhune in Limpopo around Burgersfort.


On 24 March this year, on World TB Day, the Deputy President of the country, Mr Cyril Ramaphosa launched the biggest TB-screening programme the world has ever seen. This launch took place in Orkney.

It is extremely important for people to be screened for TB and those found positive to be promptly treated if we are to defeat this pandemic. I want you, as leaders, to understand how the screening is being conducted so that you should participate and lead communities by imparting information and directing people where to go.


In the six districts I have mentioned, all the people in correctional service are being screened in those facilities. All the people in the mines are being screened in the mines. We have hired nine inspectors who are moving from mine to mine to make sure that people are being screened.


The rest of the people are been screened by teams moving around these peri-mining communities. If you are not sure where to find the teams, please go to the nearest clinic or hospital. The screening may be done by asking four key questions, or done through the new GeneXpert technology or the new digital X-ray equipment we have just acquired with the money from the Global Fund.

I wish to inform this House that the new GeneXpert technology introduced to the world very recently, has brought a new revolution in diagnosis of TB. For the past 50 years, we used to rely on microscopy whereby we could only diagnose TB after one week. Now with the GeneXpert, introduced in South Africa in 2011, we wait for only two hours and no longer one week


We used to wait for three months to diagnose MDR-TB. These three-months waiting period has been reduced to two hours by the GeneXpert. I am happy to announce that in terms of this GeneXpert testing, South Africa is number one in the world. By December 2014, out of the 10,1 million tests conducted worldwide on the GeneXpert, 60% were conducted in South Africa alone.


Up to so far in the peri-mining communities, the six districts I have mentioned, we have screened 252 000 people. Our inspectors have found that 88% of the mines are now routinely screening the people.


We have divided the correctional services facilities into 48 management areas. And we have discovered that 90% of them are screening for TB. We have deployed 164 councillors and 36 data capturers to these correctional service centres. To each one of the seven biggest correctional services centres, we have deployed a GeneXpert 16 which can test 16 inmates at the same time. These seven were chosen because they constitute 30% of the correctional services population.

These are Kgosi Mampuru, Barberton, Johannesburg, Groenpunt, Pollsmoor, St Albans and Durban-Westville correctional service facilities. The remaining facilities are linked to the National Health Laboratory Service for GeneXpert. We have also deployed three mobile digital X-ray machines to the correctional service facilities. Because of these, we have been able to screen 167 462 inmates and put 66 000 of them on the GeneXpert, whereas before 2013 we could only do 6 000. And our findings are that out of the 66 000 on GeneXpert, 3 887 inmates have TB and 176 have MDR-TB. They have all been initiated on treatment.


After completing and screening in the six districts as mentioned, our next screening programme will go to all the eight metros because they are very badly affected. From the metros, we will go to the four provinces in the country that constitute 70% of the TB burden of the country. These are KwaZulu-Natal, Western Cape, Eastern Cape and Gauteng.


Coming to the MDR-TB, as I have already said that 60% of it is in the five Brics countries, 25% is in Europe and 15% scattered all over the world. By 2014, in South Africa we had 350 000 people with TB, out of which 11 000 had multidrug-resistant TB, MDR-TB and 700 had extensively drug-resistant TB, XDR-TB. Our biggest worry is that every person with TB can infect 15 others in their lifetime. Hence eradicating this scourge is very important and very urgent.


In 2009, we used to have a total of nine central sites in our country where we were isolating and treating people with MDR-TB. I am happy to mention that today we have decentralised the centres. Instead of nine centres we have 298 centres, with 272 satellites and 150 injection teams. We have trained and certified 135 nurses who are able to treat people with MDR­TB in the absence of a doctor. This has borne some fruits.


In 2009 our TB treatment success rate was only 76%. I am happy to mention that by 2014, our success rate has reached 82,5%. The World Health Organisation targeted 85%, and as you can see, we are heading in that direction at a very fast speed. Secondly, for the past 50 years, the world had relied on the same drugs to treat TB. I am happy to mention that, recently after 50 years of struggling, there is now a new drug that has been introduced in the arsenal called bedaquiline.


In the entire world, only 600 patients are on bedaquiline and I can confirm that 60% of them are receiving their bedaquiline in South Africa. In fact, we are the only country where bedaquiline is given programmatically. For the rest of the world, you only get it if you register yourself for a clinical trial or other research programmes.


It takes six months to treat one person with MDR-TB on bedaquiline, at R9 000,00 per patient. Regardless of these expenses, we decided to aim high. We are promising and we have taken a decision that before the end of this financial year we shall have increased the patients on bedaquiline by 840%. We wish to work hard to register this target.


The last thing I want to mention is the issue of Compensation Commissioner for Occupational Diseases, CCOD and the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases, MBOD. These units fall within the Department of Health. One helps to diagnose occupational diseases which is the MBOD and the other the CCOD compensates. Now, to get lung problems in the mines especially can happen only 20 years after leaving the mine because silicosis take that long to develop. But we also know that if you are HIV positive, your chances of getting TB increase three times; if you have diabetes, your chances of getting it increase five times; if you have silicosis they increase six times and if you are HIV positive and you also get silicosis they increase 18 times. [Interjections.] So, people who work in the mines have this problem.


In the past until recently only white mineworkers who have left the mines were been screened twice a year, and black mineworkers were not screened. This led to a backlog on compensation. I am happy to mention that we have turned this situation around. We have hired a new management in the CCOD, but we have also launched what we call one-stop centres. The launch has been made in Mthatha as there are many ex-mineworkers there. The second one was launched in Carletonville. These centres are serving three functions: Firstly, to screen ex-mineworkers and mineworkers for silicosis TB and other occupational lung diseases, secondly, to rehabilitate them and lastly, to compensate them.


I am happy to mention that since the launch of these one-stop centres the one in Mthatha, since last year April, has already seen 4 000 ex-mineworkers. The one in Carletonville have seen 3 500. Because of these we have worked with the five unions which are National Union of Mineworkers, Num, Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union, Amcu, National Union of Metal Workers of SA, Numsa, Solidarity and United Association of SA, Uasa and the mining houses. On 29 May we launched a project to compensate them. And we found - because now our systems are working - that out of 200 000 files we have we have examined 105 000 mineworkers deserve compensation. We have raised R1,5 billion and on 29 May we launched this project to compensate them. The 56% of those who were compensated, were compensated for TB.


The mineworkers who were compensated are not only from South Africa, they are also from Mozambique, Lesotho, Swaziland and Botswana, especially, but the rest of the Southern African Development Communities, SADC. There are also mineworkers from Italy, Spain, Poland, United Kingdom, UK, Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe. At the moment we are now busy with 500 000 files which needs to be compensated. Our ultimate aim is that we are working with these unions and the mining houses to bring to Parliament new laws that would prevent mineworkers from contracting these occupational deceases rather than just compensating them.


Lastly, I want every public representative to present themselves to be screened for TB because it is very important. [Interjections.] On the day of the launch of the screening we started with the Deputy President. Because we were in the North West, we followed with the Premier of the North West and I also followed. We are not going to screen members of the public whilst their leaders are not being screened because we do not know how many of you might have contracted TB, as Prof Mahdi has said. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, hon Minister, I am available for screening. They are saying that I should be the first one. Therefore, I am available for screening. Hon Chair, my greeting to the hon Minister and the Deputy Minister, the House Chairpersons in our midst, hon Chief Whip of the NCOP, hon members of the executive council, MECs, in our midst, special delegates in our midst, SA Local Government Association, Salga, if they are present today, hon members and guests at the gallery, let me borrow the wise words of O R Tambo, July 1985, when he said:


Our own tasks are very clear. To bring about the kind of society that is visualised in the Freedom Charter. We have to break down and destroy the old order.

That is what the ANC is all about and this was confirmed by His Excellency, President Jacob Zuma, that only the ANC has the political will, the history and the capacity to change South Africa into a truly united, nonsexist, nonracial and a prosperous society.


Since the advent of our democracy, South African has made significant strides to transform its health care systems. This has been done through implementation of our progressive legislations. The Department of Health drives its mandate from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and the National Health Act 61, of 2003. The department also aligns its strategic plan to the National Development Plan vision 2030, which envisages a health system that works for everyone and produces positive health outcomes, and is accessible to all.


The National Development Plan relies on this department to raise life expectancy of South Africans to at least 70 years in 2030; produce a generation of under 20s that is largely free of human immunodeficiency virus, HIV; reduce the burden of diseases; achieve an infant mortality rate of less than 20 deaths per thousand live births, including an under-five mortality rate of less than 30 per thousand; achieve a significant shift in equity, efficiency and quality of health service provision; and achieve universal coverage, and significantly reduce the social determinants of diseases and adverse ecological factors.


I would not want to repeat what the hon Minister has said but this gives me an opportunity to prove that as this government we have improved in just 21 years. It would be important to briefly reflect on what this government has done – post apartheid. During the apartheid regime hon Groenewald will bear with me because I would like not to talk about it but the effects of apartheid always goes with us and we are forced to talk about it, unfortunately. Motherhood, often without adequate financial and emotional support, continues to be a source of great pain for most South African mothers. They were not given maternity leave. They were not given financial support or psychological support. With this government, our pregnant women are getting free treatment. On top of it all now, there is this information technology, IT, system which is called MomConnect. You would never get that hon Groenewald during the apartheid regime. This is where we are as this caring organisation.


Just to report on the reported cases in between 1977 and 1978, I will just take two. In terms of typhoid; it increased, from 1977, from 2 624 to 3 913 and tuberculosis from 45 298 to 51 828. When they speak most of the time they talk as if these diseases are increasing now that there’s an ANC-led government. That’s why I’m going back to these figures.


Regulations against abortion have been tightened in 1982. A total of 454 legal abortions were allowed of which 324 were for white women. As against this social welfare workers estimated at least 75 000 illegal abortions performed on black, African, Indian and coloureds women, meaning that we were not allowed at the time. I just want to reflect that people are talking as if ANC has come up with legalising abortion today. It was legalised by then but it was only for the white women. The South African Medical Research Council reported that 33 421 incomplete and septic miscarriages in the same year.


Medical personnel and services were particularly inadequate. There was one doctor for every 330 whites, 730 Indians, 1 200 coloureds and 12 000 for Africans. What imbalances. Moreover, there was one nurse for every 14 whites, 549 coloureds, 707 Indians and 745 for Africans. Only 5% of doctors were practicing in rural areas where the incidents of diseases were 10 times higher than in urban areas. A total of 27 205 hospital beds in urban areas were available to whites which consist of 18% of the population at the time, as against 43 935 for Africans, Indians and coloureds. Average bed occupancy for the whites was 50%, meaning that those beds that they had only 50% were utilised, while for Africans ranged between 90% and 100% occupancy.


Malnutrition and related diseases were on the increase. The Bureau of Economic Research in Stellenbosch estimated in 1983 that 2,9 million children in the country were malnourished. Other agencies reported drastic increase in pellagra and 200% to 300% increased in kwashiorkor amongst rural families, especially in the Transvaal.


In relation to national income, South Africa continued to have one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world. The rate for whites was 13 per 1 000 live births, for African it was 80 per 1 000 live births overall, and as high as 240 per 1 000 live births in some homelands.


Early this year, the President of South Africa in his state of the nation address highlighted a number of health-related issues that the South African Health Department needs to tackle. These include: Operation Phakisa, which will be dealing with ideal clinic; he also spoke about, TB, tuberculosis, which I will not going to talk about it, the Minister went to town about it.


In order to improve our health outcomes, the health sector should focus on strengthening the effectiveness of health system. In that regard, the health sector has achieved a significant milestones through the strategic interventions implemented over years. These achievements are seen in the following health areas: The life expectancy; HIV and acquired immune deficiency syndrome, Aids; maternal and child health; violence and injuries. In one of the debates I will speak about the impact of apartheid in terms of TB infections


As we all know that violence and injuries are one of the leading causes of death in South Africa; the health sector recognises need for the implementation of a comprehensive and intersectoral response to combat violence and injury, and significantly reduce the country’s injury death. Increased prevalence of noncommunicable diseases contributes at least 33% to the burden of diseases. In addition, to the common factors for noncommunicable diseases, NCDs, such as tobacco use, physical inactive – not me - unhealthy diets and excessive alcohol use and drug abuse.


Given the time left for my debates, we gave ourselves time as a committee to take time and meet with all provinces to look at the challenges that are faced by those seven provinces that are not receiving the unqualified or clean audit. We are pleased to report to the House that we are convinced that with the funds that are allocated and the plans that are put in place by the provinces; we will be able to turn the tides as a country. Even though the South African government has made great strides in transforming our health care system, the government is still faced with a divided health care system. There remain stark differences between the public and the private sectors in terms of access and quality.


Complicating this situation is South Africa’s quadruple burden of diseases namely, the HIV and tuberculosis. We therefore, as a committee want to support the budget of the department as presented. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms B S MASANGO: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Members of the NCOP, hon Minister and guests, good afternoon, the Budget Vote on Health is more than just decided on calculations and figures, it is a budget that directly impacts on the livelihoods of our citizens. It is also a budget specifically of interest to the NCOP because 90% of this budget is allocated to provinces with the rest distributed to the national endeavours by the department.


Hon Chairperson, the Minister has managed to run a sound Department of Health since he started in 2009. But recently, we have seen major regress from a once well oiled unit specifically where our provinces are concerned and where it directly impacts on those in need of health care on the ground.


Considering what I have just said that 90% of our budget is distributed to provinces, one would assume that national oversight equally substantiate this figure. Unfortunately, the poor performance by the ANC-led provincial Department of Health, its inability to uphold the office of health standards, bad political leadership and incompetent officials, as exemplified by the ANC’s cadre deployment far more responsibility should be put on the national Department of Health.


This year, the DA did a tour of nine hospitals around South Africa and what we found was most appalling and in gross violation of the freedom of citizens and the respect for their dignity. The tour was to assess basic conditions, staff shortages and providing essential medicines.


At Pelonomi regional Hospital in the Free State, the DA found issues that include a shortage of medicines, staff and long queues where patients waited up to six hours before being seen. It was not only the DA who found these issues at this hospital. The Mail & Guardian newspaper on their own investigation found bodies not being removed from the beds and broken lifts.


Hon Deputy Chairperson, how can the ANC year after year claim to provide quality health care when we still find these conditions within our hospitals and only in hospitals where the ANC governs? We must be ashamed that many of our citizens are still treated like they were during the days of apartheid, hon Dlamini. This is not the freedom, fairness and opportunity that one would get under a DA government. [Interjection]. And this is certainly not what Nelson Mandela fought so long and hard for.


At Rob Ferreira Hospital in Nelspruit, Mpumalanga province hon Dlamini, generators have not been working since July 2014. Simple put, this is a matter of life and death. What is expected is that nurses and doctors keep critical patients including new born babies alive by manually begging them to keep on breathing until the electricity comes back on. With our current Eskom crisis, how is this hon Minister?

The same thing goes for the Klerksdorp Tshepong Hospital in the North West where an urgent new boiler is needed, more beds for patients required as the hospital is overcrowded. And the ongoing shortage of essential medicines must be seen to urgently.  These are basic human rights that only the DA-led government in the Western Cape Department of Health has gotten right. [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: Your stats are very wrong.


Ms B S MASANGO: Let me go back to my own province, Gauteng, where population numbers are growing and more people need health care. One finds a situation where the new Jabulani Hospital in Soweto has a staff vacancy of 166 personnel. How can a new hospital that was opened a year ago have this vacancy rate, I ask? [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: Your stat is very wrong.


The hon Minister has before admitted that we have a problem to retain nurses in South Africa. Perhaps, more emphasis should be given to training medical staff so that more people can be employed faster and more South Africans can benefit from adequate health care.


Today, we find the National Health Laboratory Service, NHLS, experiencing major staff losses as reportedly up to a thousand. The NHLS that serves over 80% of our population, responsible for diagnostic pathology, specifically, within Tubercolosis, TB, and HIV and Aids diagnosis.


One of the biggest factors that has contributed to this is the R4,5 billion owed to the NHLS which Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal being major culprits unable to pay their service providers and suppliers. Has the National department spoken to Treasury on how they will recuperate this? [Interjection] This is how the DA ensured it was re-elected ... sorry.


Hon Deputy Chairperson, every South African deserves adequate health care like they receive in the Western Cape province. They need to be able to visit a hospital, receive helpful service and see a doctor timeously with the correct diagnosis and stocked medicines in order to get better. This is how the DA ensured it was re-elected with an increased majority in the last election.


Minister, the fact that the ANC is declining is because what was once good about it is slowly disintegrating and it is even becoming evident even within a once shining beacon which is this department we are debating today, the national Department of Health. The DA has proven to be the only the party to effectively run a provincial Department of Health.  Freedom and fairness are not just words to us, it is what we do when we provide the basic right to health care to all our citizens. We must never forget, this is a provision in our world renowned Constitution ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that a point of order?


Ms B S MASANGO: ... A constitution that only... [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: you can’t mislead us.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Masango, take a seat please!


Mr S G THOBEJANE: Is hon Masango prepared to take a question?


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you prepared to take a question?




The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: She says no! You can continue with the debate.


Ms B S MASANGO: ... the DA has proven to be the only party to effectively run a provincial department. Freedom and fairness are not just words to us, it is what we do when we provide the basic right to health care to all our citizens.


We must never forget, this is a provision in our world renowned Constitution. A Constitution that only the DA embodies, respects, and is able to bring alive. I urge you to restore the same philosophy within your department. Thank you. [Applause.]


Ms P DYANTYI (Eastern Cape): Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo ... [Hon Chairperson...]


... Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members in the House , officials from the department, my colleagues from different provinces, ladies and gentlemen, good day. I, firstly, want to express my gratitude to this hon House for presenting me an opportunity to make an input in the hon Minister’s Budget Vote speech and also give an outline of our province’s commitment towards health in order to fulfil the country’s national objectives.


Yesterday, June 16, South Africa took time to commemorate the 39th anniversary of Soweto uprising and also salute the gallant work of the youth of 1976 who fought for a better and equal South Africa for all. Thirty nine years only, the outcomes of their struggle still benefit our young people even to this day. Theirs was indeed not in vain.


Our struggle today has taken a different form. In health sector we are fighting for an HIV-free society by 2030. Alone we can never achieve this mammoth task, but with help and commitment of youth ambassadors, willing to help us spread the message, we are confident that we can move South Africa forward.

The health sector aims to promote a primary health care approach which recognises that prevention of disease and promotion of health and wellness are the cornerstones to improve the health of the nation. The Eastern Cape department of health is devoted to see government’s plans of an improved and a better South Africa by 2030 fulfilled as outlined in the National Development Plan: Vision 2030.


Our budget allocation for this financial year has been dedicated towards improving the health outcomes of our people, through making responsive health systems to the demands for quality health care. We have taken this bold move mindful of the fact that, an investment in health can have positive spin-offs and can greatly contribute to the economic development of our province and ultimately, of our country.


We realised that people who remain untested for TB and HIV and Aids pose a significant challenge to the fight against the spread of the diseases. The move to give special focus to the vulnerable communities as expounded by the Minister is highly welcomed and as it is envisaged to reach the unconventional reachable communities. Advocacy for TB screening and promotion of healthy lifestyle has to be escalated until we realise our targets for year 2030.


Maternal and child health care is on top of our health agenda. The need to reduce mother, new born and child mortality through strengthened maternal, child and nutritional health services remains our priority even beyond the Millennium Development Goals, MDGs’ deadline. Implementation of key life-saving strategies like provision and expanding access for women to deliver their babies in a conducive environment supported by trained birth attendants and midwives in maternity-awaiting homes, human-milk banks and doubling the number of registered pregnant women of MomConnect, amongst key strategies to address these challenges, need to be highlighted.


The National Health Insurance, NHI - an ANC-led government initiative aimed at providing all South Africans access to quality health care, free at the point of use - has been piloted with success to date in my province. The implementation of the NHI pilot project in OR Tambo has marked notable progress in health space within the District, in that having noted the remarkable positive benefits of the OR Tambo District NHI pilot project to our people, the province is confident to launch the second NHI pilot site at Alfred Nzo District during this financial year.


To further advance plans to fulfil implementation of NHI, 80 clinics in the province have been identified across all districts for the rollout of the Ideal Clinic Realisation and Maintenance, ICRM, project. This move is immensely welcomed. South Africa is moving ahead and making progress on its plans for universal health coverage.


The bilateral partnership agreement between South African government and the Republic of Cuba, headed by the National Department of Health, have once more produced valuable fruits for the country through the recent arrival of a new corps of Cuban medical doctors who will immensely help the rural Eastern Cape province.


Our determination towards an effective and efficient public health service continues to bring positive change and impact to our society. Last month in the Nelson Mandela Bay Metro, we officially opened a state of the art Paediatric Wellness Unit, an Obstructive Pulmonary Disease Unit, OPD, Pharmacy, and Psychiatric Unit in Dora Nginza to promote uninterrupted delivery of quality services to our people. In addition to the 110 new emergency medical service vehicles that were distributed last July, we now added 178 new ones. Through the additional road fleet together with the Air Emergency Services, we are now able to confidently say, we are truly turning the tide.


Imisebenzi yona iyancomeka. [The work is commended.]


In conclusion, during this year of the Freedom Charter and Unity in Action, we pledge to fulfil the vision of the Freedom Charter which envisages a better South Africa for all. The 530 bed Cecilia Makiwane flagship project in Mdantsane is now near completion. And I assure the hon members that this township community and other surrounding communities will attest to the fulfilment of the Freedom Charter when they access superior health care services despite their financial status. On behalf of my province and my organisation the ANC, I support the Budget Vote for National Health. [Applause.]


Ms D MAHLANGU: GAUTENG MEC: Deputy Chair; Minister of Health, Dr Motsoaledi; Deputy Minister, Dr Phaahla; Minister of Environmental Affairs, Edna Molewa; distinguished colleagues in the Executive Council of the other provinces; members of this august House; all the special delegates present here, it is indeed a privilege and pleasure to be here. I wish to say the following before I table what I need to.


Firstly, the DA members indicated that the human resources, HR, in the ANC-run provinces are the only challenge. I think she must tell the House the correct facts about HR in the healthcare profession. This is a global problem. You can go to the World Health Organisation, WHO, website, even in developed countries like the UK and you will find that they are loosing health professionals to Australia, New Zealand and other countries. So, you must not grandstand and talk as if South Africa is the only country that is struggling with healthcare professionals.


There is a grand plan that the Minister has developed, which you all support, in making sure that we build ... That is why the MEC was talking about the Cuban programme where we train South Africans in Cuba. There is also a discussion with all the deans of medical schools, led by the Deputy Minister, to expand the training platform in South Africa, in order to produce more doctors.


So, do not come here and grandstand. All our nursing colleges are taking more students. In Gauteng alone, last year, we produced 1 500 from our nursing colleges to work in the public healthcare sector.


The second issue that the member speaks about is a visit to provinces. In this instance, you speak about Jabulani Hospital. I would like to invite hon members who have not been to the Bheki Mlangeni Hospital, to go there. It is a state–of-the-art hospital in a township that used to be in a ghetto kind of an area. Also go to the new Natalspruit Hospital. We are giving dignity to the South Africans we are serving, who are largely Africans and the poor. They are being provided health services by our own government. It is important to look at those issues.


On the issue that she is raising about the quality of healthcare, if we did not really care about the South Africans who come to our public hospitals, we would not have had 9 million patients in our files. Yes, indeed, the quality of healthcare remains a challenge and we are alive to that reality. We will continue to pay attention to those things.


The last matter referred to is the payment of service providers. Working with Treasury, we have clear plans for paying service providers within 30 days. Indeed, one of the things we have dealt with – the Minister and the Deputy Minister will speak about those issues - is the payment to the National Health Laboratory Service, NHLS. As we speak, we do not owe NHLS money for the last financial year. What we owe NHLS is money regarding a dispute about issues relating to the investigation done by our own government through national Treasury, with regard to the billing between NHLS and Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal. As we speak, those issues are being dealt with, including introducing gate-keeping and all of that.


One of my points is that an incorrect narrative is being given that the Western Cape is the only province that provides good healthcare. For the record, the national health department has just done the visits to the hospitals regarding the national quality standards, preparing for the introduction of the National Health Insurance, NHI.


I am standing here with pride and dignity to say that Steve Biko Academic Hospital has achieved 100% compliance with regard to the extreme core standards. Tomorrow, they can implement anytime. Where is the Western Cape? Groote Schuur Hospital is at 88%. Second is the King Albert Luthuli Central Hospital in KwaZulu-Natal.


So, don’t come here and grandstand when you do not have figures. I can report on all the costs, from the tertiary hospitals in Gauteng to all the district hospitals, the community health centres and our clinics. I can tell you where we are with regard to the implementation of the NHI and the ideal clinic. It is an idea that started yesterday.


From where I am standing, most of our health facilities have generators. When there is no electricity tomorrow, the clinic can run. We are building momentum in ensuring that the ideal clinic concept is not only embraced, but that resources are allocated to that. Again, I do not know where the Western Cape is but I do know where the province I come from is. My colleagues will speak about the issues.


The Minister convened the meeting a few days ago, on the eve of the World Economic Forum, with all health MECs, introducing us to an idea called leapfrogging. One of the fundamental issues that we have learned from that workshop is that countries like Ethiopia and Kenya and so on have leapfrogged by using the basic things that are going to give them 80% results.


What are we adopting in Gauteng with looking at that leapfrogging exercise? One of the things that the Minister said at the closing of that workshop was the possibility of looking at the human resources as a game changer, particularly looking at the community health workers in that regard. Gauteng has 9 000 community health workers. Our plan is to “massify” that number. What are we trying at achieve?


You know that strengthening our primary healthcare is dependent on our communities – how they look at and feel about our primary healthcare facilities as well as their approach and attitude towards it. In strengthening that, we must make sure that the ward-based outreach team works well and that the community workers are well trained. That is the work that we are doing. We also have 382 teams that are being aligned with the 508 wards in our province. We will achieve about 380 to 480 wards or so. That work is essential in ensuring .... You can go to Chiawelo and to two wards in Tshwane and Sedibeng and see community health workers at hand and the data that they are producing is incredible.


The Minister spoke at length about TB. When these community health workers do door-to-door visits to the homes, they have the family household files and individual files. They are aware of the trends of HIV and Aids and pregnancy and they know when a woman first went to visit a clinic, and all of that. They are aware of trends of TB - the issues that the Minister was talking about. So, that data can help us to make the appropriate decision.


So, there is a lot of work that we are doing in strengthening primary healthcare. We are ensuring that citizens understand and have a good relationship with the community healthcare workers on the ground. We are also making sure that the medication of stable patients who are on chronic medication is delivered at home.


Gauteng has 900 000 people just for HIV and Aids alone. We will decongest our clinics to a great extent, if we take patients who are stable and on chronic medication, including patients with hypertension and diabetes out of the healthcare facilities.


The other point I want to talk about, in brief, is the work we are doing in the province in supporting the national efforts of dealing with HIV and Aids. The UNAIDS had spoken about the 90-90-90-principle. I am sure the members understand that. It means that we must understand and know our HIV status. Those who know their HIV status and need ARVs, must be on ARVs and those who are on ARVs must have their viral load supplies.


We have a massive programme in the province. For every massive activity that is organised, we send our teams to do screening. We are working with the prisons, hostels and different communities. We are targeting areas that are difficult to work with. We are also targeting the universities. That work is going very well.


Minister, you will be pleased that a week ago, the Department of Education organised a career expo, which was attended by thousands of young people. In one day, we, together with our partners circumcised 16 young people. That programme is continuing. There is reception from young men that they want to be circumcised. It is a very simple exercise. All of that is our contribution towards fighting HIV and Aids and that remains our priority.

We need to make sure that pregnant women go as early as possible to start their antenatal treatment. That is important for the prevention of mother-to-child transmission, but also for their health.


The last matter I want to talk about because there is not time, is relating to child mortality. My colleague from the Eastern Cape has spoken about the importance of this. As we speak, Minister, in the next few days, as we table our budget speech, we are finalising the plans in launching the maternal homes, which we have learned about in Cuba. We are going to ensure that we admit women who are at high risk, who have hypertension and who have low blood pressure, so that those are taken care of. We have learned about this programme in Cuba. This is going to help us in reducing the maternal mortality rate from 138 per 1 000 to below 100. That is what we are aiming for.


An important matter is that all of us, as South Africans, must work towards making sure that we promote a healthy lifestyle because it benefits all of us. We must know what we eat and consume and we must exercise as much as we can. Too many South African are dying because of hypertension and chronic-related diseases.


Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, on a point of order: The lady speaks very fast at the top of her voice.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member, that is not a point of order.


Ms D MAHLANGU: GAUTENG MEC: I think the hon member can join me in running or in getting on the bike, one of these days. The point I am making is that South Africans must take interest in how they look and feel and should exercise because that benefits the public health system, at large. It is important for us to pay attention to our well-being and what we eat. Thank you very much. As Gauteng, we support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: In actual fact, for a second I thought there is a twin of the hon member in the House. I had to look very closely and realised that it is the member.


Mr A J NYAMBI /HC:CaO/: Chair, with utmost respect, I am checking whether it is parliamentary, for security reasons, to have an hon member changing clothes. You can wear three different sets of clothes in one session. [Laughter.] I am afraid we are not safe in this House.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: It is okay. [Laughter.] He exercised his freedom to go and change his clothing.


Ms M F TLAKE: Hon Chairperson, hon Chief Whip, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon special delegates from provinces, hon members, hon heads of departments, ladies and gentlemen in the gallery, as a select committee that oversees the national Department of Health we were satisfied that the strategic plan and the annual performance plan, APP, of the department are aligned to the National Development Plan, NDP. This alignment is an indication that the Budget Vote allocation will ensure that the health system in provinces through integration as provisioned in the NDP will promote accessibility to quality health care and transformation of people’s minds and lifestyles in order to promote the long term viability of the community in the provinces and our country at large.


We want to thank the Minister for the focus on tuberculosis, TB, especially in the mines. This programme will educate our people that TB can be treated if one understands the correct lifestyle one must lead, including also HIV and Aids, diabetes and high blood pressure which is a silent killer of which many people are not aware of that fact. All these diseases are manageable and can be treated if people can be positive and honest in taking their treatment as prescribed and by realising the importance of changing their lifestyle towards these diseases.


Research proves that teenage pregnancy is rising in schools and this is a worrisome trend. What does this imply? It means that we, as a society and parents, must play active roles in talking to our teenagers about this particular issue so that instead of being taboo, they become open for discussion at our homes. We often say charity begins at home. Let us play an active role in assisting the government because if we treat this matter as taboo we know their peer groups will teach them on our behalf as parents.


We all know the role played by social networks, such as Twitter, WhatsApp and the rest. We know the challenges that our teenagers face and the consequences of social media upon the life of our teenagers, which can either be positive or negative. So, let’s open channels of communication as the saying goes, charity begins at home.


In conclusion, I make this clarion call to our hon members to be honourable in the true sense and support this Budget Vote because through the support of this Budget Vote by all of us in here our community will be healthy and will be able to access quality health care. [Interjections.] So, we will be a healthy society in our different provinces and a healthy nation as we take South Africa forward.


Siyaqhuba. [We are moving forward.]


Mr S DHLOMO KZN MEC – HEALTH: Hon Deputy Chair, Minister Motsoaledi and Minister Molewa, Deputy Ministers Phaahla and Thomson, chairperson of the select committee, Mme Dlamini and other members of this August House, my colleague MECs from various provinces, we support the Budget Vote for various reasons, among others is that we are also going to benefit as the province of KwaZulu-Natal, KZN. I will highlight mostly those that we thought are key because of time constraints.


With regard to infrastructure, in January, we had a site handed over at Dr Pixley ka Isaka Seme Memorial Regional Hospital which will be built in the north of eThekwini and this hospital will cost R2,8 billion, but not all of that amount will be spent in one year. It will be built over four years. In Bethesda hospital, we are allocating R25 million where there has been construction of a new paediatric ward and 20 beds at mothers’ waiting lodge. We would really encourage mothers to come and wait there. A hospital that was called Addington Hospital, which used to be a whites only hospital, surprisingly we had to actually do major renovations to the tune of R202,8 million. Currently theatres and additional façade have been improved and we are continuing on that.


We have the Lower Umfolozi War Memorial Hospital that has been reconstructed at an amount of R428 million. It’s a mother and child regional hospital that will serve three districts namely uThungulu, Zululand and Mkhanyakude. About R8 million has been spent on Newcastle Hospital for renovations. Ngwelezane Hospital is benefitting R180 million for building a new psychiatric ward including a new 192 beds surgical unit. Emmaus Hospital, just on the border of Lesotho, was blown away during a storm. We are spending R132,2 million in rebuilding the hospital.


We have a children’s hospital in KZN which is an extension of Addington Hospital and we expect to complete this hospital in 2018. This is a hospital that used to be a flagship of the province but the apartheid government stopped it because it did not allow black patients to be seen together with whites. We have stopped that now and we are rebuilding the hospital there. Some of the members here did benefit from that.


There are three institutions in the province called the community-based adherence clubs, CACs. People in the rural areas and where we have built them call them mini or small hospitals. We have built a hospital in Jozini at an amount of R268 million and it is almost 90% complete. At Pomeroy in Msinga another R168 million has been spent there to build Pomeroy community health centre. Just last month the premier opened a new facility called Don Hauser that has been built at a cost of R168 million.


We are continuously building ...




Mr S DHLOMO: KZN – HEALTH: Ngwelezane Clinic and Jozini Malaria Health Complex have been built. We have built five clinics all of them at the tune of about R18 million, Isithebe Clinic at Ilembe District, Shongweni Dam Clinic at eThekwini, Mwolokohlo Clinic in Ndwedwe, Mqatsheni Clinic at KwaSani next to Lesotho border, Gwaliweni Clinic in Jozini and Enhlekiseni Clinic, all of them will be built at the tune of R18,7 million this financial year.

Because we are trying to attract as many doctors and health care professionals to work in rural areas we have built a state of the art accommodation centre which has 24 flats in a hospital court in Mseleni next to Mozambique so that we can attract many people to go and work in those areas.


In this financial year we have R1,55 billion that will be spent just on infrastructure in the province. On child and women’s health we are actually geared to follow the prescript of the National Development Plan which says by 2030 we must have a life expectancy of 70 years for South Africans, both men and women, fight the quadruple burden of disease, fight that under 20s must be largely HIV free and also reduce the infant and under five mortality rate.


We have a programme in the province which we call Phila Mntwana where we are focusing on identifying children and detecting malnutrition and TB. This is also working with Operation Sukuma Sakhe done by community care workers. Actually, they are using a particular tape and if that tape measures on red, it actually says that child has severe malnutrition and has to be assessed immediately and admitted.


Two years ago, we learnt the success story of Kimberley Hospital where they had human milk bank and we have since established six human milk banks in our province in various hospitals. Those are Stanger, Grey’s, Edendale, Newcastle, King Edward VIII and Lower Umfolozi War Memorial Hospitals and all of them have this human milk bank. The benefits of this are that those children who have seriously unwell mothers now get milk from the other mothers who are donating, pre-term babies who do not have access to their own mother’s milk and all abandoned babies also benefit.


If there is a province to show issues of national health insurance, NHI, it probably has to be KwaZulu-Natal because of the large surface area that we are actually piloting NHI on. We are piloting it on three districts and one of the things that we have seen now is contracting general practitioners, GPs. Now the benefit of this is largely to the patients.


Patients are seen in the clinics by a general practitioner, GP, and the GP is able to do a work up on a patient as if he was sitting in a district hospital. Patients have then been able to bypass district hospitals through referrals by doctors moving from rural areas straight to Grey’s Hospital and are seen there because the doctor has assessed the clinic that this patient needs higher care than just a district hospital. We have therefore seen an installation of information technology, deploying of family health teams and establishment of chronic medication distribution sites.


The best story to listen to with regard to the NHI is a story about Msinga where a school nurse discovered a 10 year old child who had swollen glands and the child was later confirmed as HIV positive and started treatment. Through visiting a family, a health nurse found that a pregnant mother had never been diagnosed as HIV positive and intervention started. Not only do we have a healthy mother, but we also have a mother who has been able to deliver an HIV free baby. This is a combination of Operation Sukuma Sakhe and NHI. [Applause.]


We are following very strongly on the issues that Minister has been advocating such as dual protection. We have launched our dual protection at Amajuba and Umgungundlovu District Municipalities. We want to follow and visit all our technical, vocational education and training, TVET, in the province because that is where young people are and that is where adolescent health must focus on if we have to deal with issues of HIV and Aids.


Amongst other problems that we have is that of a million babies - for the sake of those who do not even know that in our government hospitals we actually deliver about a million babies per year – and 8% of those babies which translates to 80 000 babies are delivered by teenage mothers. This is rather too much and we really need to do something about that.


With regard to the issue of being innovative, we have taken services to the taxi ranks. We now give a benefit of doubt that taxi operators find little or no time to go to our health facilities during the day. Therefore, we have taken services to the taxi ranks and to the truck stops. The last one was recently opened. Now we have 12 taxi rank mobiles that are operational and 12 truck stops.


We are actually informed by particular studies done by many authors, including Ncama, who said in 2013 it is shown that many bus and taxi drivers have been identified as vulnerable HIV infection group where 78% taxi drivers admitted having had more than one sexual partner in the past year while 54% admitted to have sexual intercourse without using a condom. Now when we get closer to them in taxi ranks we offer these services. This is one of the papers we delivered in our ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, do not interrupt the speaker, please. You can heckle, but I don’t need to hear what you are saying. Don’t interrupt the speaker, please. Continue, hon MEC.


Mr S DHLOMO: KZN – HEALTH: This paper on taxi ranks provision services was one of our papers which was delivered last week on the 7th Aids conference in Durban and it won us an award. We are very happy about that. We will continue with the programmes and also indicate that we are doing much better than Western Cape when it comes to mother and child, yet they have no HIV compared to us. Today we are sitting at 1,5 mother to child transmission and we have put 904 278 patients on HIV treatment. We have 632 fixed public health facilities providing antiretrovirals, ARVs. We have actually been able to circumcise 536 000 men, but this is accumulative since 2011. We have also been able to improve on screening women for cancers of breast and cervix from 37% in 2013 and we are currently sitting at 78%.


The ideal e-clinic programme of the Minister as actually announced by the President, hon Jacob Zuma, is also finding its space in KwaZulu-Natal. Currently, we have two clinics which have been assessed to be ideal and one is a clinic called Efaye at uMshwathi and the other one at Phatheni Clinic. We are actually continuing to do even better and more.


I want to say to the hon member of the DA, yes, we are having a meeting with the National Health Laboratory Service, NHLS, tomorrow National Treasury will be part thereof and we are resolving our matters of outstanding debt.


In conclusion, we want to say that we have the means and the will to succeed. We also have the political, social and community structures working together under Operation Sukuma Sakhe and I think that is our strongest point to have Operation Sukuma Sakhe in the province. By the way and for your information, the only province that is not training and capacitating young South Africans to become doctors through the programme of Cuba is the Western Cape.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Health Dr Aaron Motsoaledi, hon Minister Molewa, Deputy Ministers present here, Deputy Minister Thompson, our colleagues, members of executive council of the province, MECs, from provinces, the chairperson of the committee hon Dlamini, members of the select committee, hon members of the NCOP, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, “dunelang” [greetings].


I am indeed pleased for this opportunity to participate in the 2015-16 Budget Vote of our department in this very important month, June. Yesterday, we marked the anniversary of the watershed, June 16 Soweto uprising, when our young people took to the forefront of the liberation struggles. In nine days time, we will celebrate the 60th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter. These two are amongst some of the most significant landmarks which remind us where we come from and the obligations we carry in ensuring that everyday we lay a brick in the wall of building a democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous South Africa.


The mandate of the Department of Health arising from the Freedom Charter is very simple and straightforward, namely, the creation of a preventative health scheme and free health service for all at the point of delivery. Our strategic plan, annual performance plans and our outcome which is a long and healthy life for all South Africans, are all derived from the vision of the Freedom Charter. It is for this reason that our plans are anchored on the following priorities.


First, the promotion of health and prevention of disease; acceleration of progress towards universal health coverage by implementing the national health insurance, NHI, and thereby ensuring free health service at point of delivery; re-engineering of primary health care; improving health facility planning; improved maintenance of existing infrastructure and delivery of new infrastructure; improving management capacity at all levels with the focus on human resources, HR, financial management and supply chain management; and infrastructure development and maintenance.


Let me take this opportunity again to remind hon members, as it has already been done by the hon Dlamini, that while infectious diseases such as HIV and Aids and TB remain a challenge, we must not lose focus on the silent killers known as the noncommunicable diseases. We must do everything possible to highlight the dangers of these categories of the burden of disease largely because many of them are preventable. They are diseases such as such as hypertension, cardiovascular diseases, chronic kidney diseases, diabetes, cancer and mental diseases. To a differing extent, the common causative and contributory factors are poor or inappropriate diet, tobacco smoking, excessive use and abuse of alcohol, inadequate and irregular exercise


We utilise various forms to ensure that we mobilise our society, and largely one of the key factors we use is education and mobilisation. In this regard, we work with various partners in government. Many of the provinces and municipalities are also playing a major role in this regard. Nongovernment organisations, civil society groups and even some businesses play a role in educating our people about noncommunicable diseases. Our education and mobilisation campaigns are either focussed on one particular disease such as diabetes, for example, or a broad awareness around healthy lifestyles. I take this opportunity to thank all organisations, businesses and individuals who are playing a major role in this regard. To highlight some of the nongovernment organisations is the Pink Drive, whose focus is largely on cancer prevention, early detection of breast and cervix cancer amongst women and also prostate and testicular cancer amongst men.


We also appreciate the contribution of our sporting heroes such as the Proteas team which, early this year during the West Indies tour, dedicated one of the tours at Wanderers to the prevention of cancer. We also take this opportunity to recognise the contribution of the citizens such as our two first ladies, Mma Ngema-Zuma and Mma Thobeka Madiba-Zuma for working hard also in the area of diabetes and cancer awareness.


In the area of legislation as a government department, we also use legislation and we can say without any doubt that this has paid dividend. This has been indicated by the Human Science Research Council which found that indeed as a result of the legislative and regulatory intervention between 1993 and 2012, smoking in our country has reduced by over 50%. Regulatory work is also being done in the area of ensuring that our food industry reduces salt and transfatty acids.


Hon Chair and members, the major challenge still seriously facing our country, is the massive use and abuse of alcohol amongst our South African people that even goes to the lower ages. We hope to do everything this year to improve our instruments which we can apply to make sure that we can reduce the damage alcohol is causing in our community from a regulatory and legislative point of view.


In terms of our other interventions, of course, it is early detection of disease and making sure that we intervene as soon as this has been detected. To maximise our efforts, we make sure that we combine the various screening methods which we use at our facilities and in community outreaches to combine the screening, which the Minister has already spoken about, of HIV/Aids and TB including the noncommunicable diseases so that we can be able to heed the two challenges, infectious diseases as well as well as noncommicable diseases. Other interventions which we are making inroads into is that, this being winter, we must mention that we are also rolling out the availability of influenza vaccination. We have made sure that this has increased from previous years.


In the area of malaria, we have made a lot of progress to prevent it. We are almost there and we are working with other countries in the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region for not only reducing the impact of malaria, but also its elimination.


In terms of strengthening our health services, we have developed a plan to improve the quality of care in our central, tertiary and also specialised hospitals. While we are quite clear that the rock on which an effective health system should be built is the primary health care, we have also no illusion about the importance of strengthening our hospital services as well. In order to achieve a good quality hospital services, we have a plan to radically transform central hospitals management and governance. Our intention is to make sure that more and more authority is given to managers on the ground so that they can be able to take decisions, control their budgets and be able to take actions which can improve the quality of service.


I also concur with the MEC for Gauteng in saying that all our hospitals from central, tertiary, regional and specialised, should adhere to national core standards established by the Office of the Health Standards Compliance. Five of our central hospitals were targeted for measurement of compliance. The outcome was that three of the five central hospitals led by Steve Biko Hospital as the MEC has said, achieved 96%, Inkosi Albert Luthuli 89% and Groote Schuur 88%. These were fully compliant with the national core standards and only Steve Biko was adherent to the extreme measures at 100% and vital measures at 95%. The MEC indeed was spot-on in this regard. We still face various challenges at tertiary and regional hospitals, but all these are being attended to make sure that indeed we improve our performance in this area.


To touch a little bit of what colleagues have already spoken, the national health laboratory service is one of our major institutions which provide valuable diagnostic laboratory services. We are making sure that challenges which we have experienced over the last few years are being addressed. In this regard, we have also made sure that we change the financing system so that some of the burdens which were lying in the provinces can be taken directly by national government and fund some of the programmes.


Lastly, I want to touch on the Cuban student programme. Indeed, we are making a lot of progress in improving the training of medical practitioners. Currently, we are standing at around 3 000 students who are training in Cuba. We are concerned about some of the provinces which are reducing funding for medical students because of challenges of budgets. Again, we are very disappointed with the Western Cape because with all the demands for health services in this province, it remains the pariah province which is not funding any students, and poor students who could have an opportunity to become medical practitioners are missing that opportunity because of the intransigence of the Western Cape province.


We are moving forward; we are taking South Africa forward. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]


Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, in greeting you all with As-saalamu-alay-kum, we also acknowledge the presence of our supreme forces, irrespective of our perceptions all protocols are then respectfully observed. Please also allow me to wish the South Africans and the Muslims in South Africa well over the coming fasting month of Ramadan.


Health is an indication of the functioning or metabolic efficiency of a living organism. It is the ability of individuals to adapt and manage when facing physical, mental or social challenges. It is a state of well being, complete in all aspects of physical, mental and social functions. The mere absence of disease or infirmity alone does not serve the desired the desired outcomes.


This budget in this regard does not come nearly close enough in the direction towards solving our health challenges in South Africa and for that reason we cannot accept it.


In as much as we commend the hon Minister in his approach, the real challenge facing him is how to convince his colleagues in the cabinet who pursue a capitalist approach on joining us on a course that will benefit our people who need it most.


Most of the activities of the department are geared towards National Health Insurance, NHI, pilot areas, leaving non pilot areas to suffer. While universal access to basic healthcare is a highly desirable goal; before placing too much confidence in the notion that expanding access to medical healthcare through NHI is the solution to narrowing the health gap, the broader social context for achieving greater equity in health outcomes must be considered.


A more fundamental solution would be to eliminate health problems before they arise through socioeconomic empowerment. In a recent analysis Prof Di McIntyre from University of Cape Town’s Health Economic Unit states that “International experience clearly demonstrates that changing the way of paying providers is necessary to secure greater value for money.”


She further states:

An integrated pool of funds is the only way to ensure that all the available human resources are used more effectively and efficiently, then, everyone will be able to access health services on the basis of their need for care and not on the basis of their ability to pay.


The NHI should seek to introduce other new dimensions to the South African health financing systems notably, the possibility of using public resources through strategic purchasing of services for the population.


Hon Minister, please consider an old proverb that states: the king who cannot rule his diet will hardly rule his realm in peace and quite.


As Prof Benatar of UCT wrote:


The social circumstances influencing health begin with the physical, mental and nutritional states of women during pregnancy and child birth and continue throughout life. Care of infants, education and nurturing of children, opportunities for further study during adolescence and access to rewarding work are all enhanced by maternal literacy as demonstrated in some poor countries with high levels of female literacy. Access to adequate nutrition, clean water, sanitation, housing and basic healthcare is essential.

Access to proper medical care is still determined by one’s socioeconomic status. With quality healthcare only reserved for the rich, and the poor condemned to conditions which leave much to be desired at our state hospitals.


Recent research reports also cite underfunding, mismanagement, shortages of health professionals and deteriorating infrastructure as contributors to the decline in the quality of public health services.


Hon Minister, We appreciate that you speak with great pride the achievements in the management of Tuberculosis, TB, but you will appreciate in reciprocation that it is socioeconomic conditions of people that is the greatest contributor to the TB epidemic. This is an area that needs urgent and serious interaction.


In the management of TB we can also consider integration of TB and HIV in a more sustained and a more conducive manner and treating all comorbidities associated with TB as best as we can. We should also consider the decentralisation of TB management to primary healthcare and also the decentralisation of Multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis, MDR-TB, management so that patients can get more from their local clinics initiation, follow up, counselling, etc


In conclusion hon Minister, the upliftment of the socioeconomic conditions of our people will remain fundamental in the overall healthcare. Thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Hon Minister, Hon Deputy Minister, in July 2014, the hon Minister of Health delivered his Health Budget Vote speech in this House. The Minister stated that his budget policy statement was being delivered under the guidance of imperatives, targets and pledges both national and international. These show that the Minister of Health is passionate about the health of South Africans and has a vision.


The challenge you will face hon Minister is that the targets you set are sometimes never met and sometimes never realised. The pledges you make never materialise. Where is the problem? The passion you have, your provincial counterparts the MECs never have it. The vision you carry with you, the provincial administrations do not have it with them, the state of health administration is pathetic in the provincial administrations, of course not all of them.


Because of this dreadful disease called cadre deployment, a lot of wrongdoings become the consequence. Due to this the department spend a lot of time, energy and resources focusing on secondary issues and secondary challenges. These are a result of a mismatch caused by favouritism and wrong deployments.


Two weeks ago at the select committee, the hon Minister stated that health is a very complicated department because it is all skills you can think of in one department. Therefore, it is important that people who are properly qualified and properly capacitated for a particular field be employed to deal with that field irrespective of the other side considerations.


KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health has just come out of a huge drama on this irregular appointment issue. A chief financial officer was employed by the department, only to discover days later that the same individual had been fired by the Gauteng Department of Health on charges of fraud and corruption. This led to a huge public spat between the MEC and his HOD. As we speak, that HOD is out in the cold today.


Hon Minster, too much time is spent on non health related issues rather than on improving the state of health provisioning in the country.


The Minister has repeatedly stated that South Africa’s disease profile is characterised by four colliding pandemics referred to as the quadruple burden of disease which are HIV/AIDS and TB, maternal and child mortality, non communicable diseases, injury and violence.


As a response to the Multidrug-resistant tuberculosis, MDR-TB, challenge the department stated that it was going to embark on a massive decentralisation of MDR-TB challenge, initiation, management and treatment. To achieve this, the department was going to increase its 100 decentralised sites to 2500 for the whole country. This did not happen. The report from the Minister today is that the country still stands at only 298 sites instead of the target of 2500.


The National Health Insurance, NHI, which was intended to improve primary healthcare and provide quality access to healthcare even for the poorest of the poor has had a very slow start and slow progress. Of late, even the department and the government seem to be surprisingly very quiet about the speedy implementation of the NHI. Of course the other contributory factor to the state of retardness of NHI implementation is the poor is the poor state of our public works both at national and provincial levels.


The infrastructure projects being implemented in preparation for the phasing in of NHI are themselves a disservice to the proper health planning. In this regard one has to sympathise with the Minister and MECs. In the same vein this still remains one government with the same mind set throughout.


Hon Minister, the shortage of health facilities, health personnel especially nurses and doctors, still remains a huge challenge for the rural communities and for the township communities of our country.


Health provisions still remain a quality service for the privileged few who can afford financially and the poor service for the masses amounting to millions because of unaffordability.


In conclusion, when we visited hospitals in the Eastern Cape on our oversight visits we learned that some hospitals have to pay a fee for the Mthatha General Hospitals doctors to come and serve these rural hospitals, but the same doctors are employed by the same department of health. I find this irregular and in fact contributing to the migration of doctors to big cities in order to benefit from this kind of incentive. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr G P MASHEGO (MPUMALANGA HEALTH MEC): Deputy Chair of the House, Ministers presents here, Minister Motsoaledi and Minister Molewa, Deputy Ministers, heads of provincial delegates in the National Council of Provinces, members of the National Council of Provinces, our Chairperson of the Select Committee, Mme Dlamini, my colleagues, MECs from other provinces, I greet you all.


We bring to you warm and revolutionary greetings from the province of the rising sun, Mpumalanga. We continue to re-emphasise that Mpumalanga is the place of the rising sun full of opportunities to invest and contribute to the growing economy of our province.


We have gathered in this House to deliberate on the Appropriation Bill, B6 of 2015, which Mpumalanga supports. We have great pleasure to deliberate on this Bill, just a day since our nation commemorated June 16, the Youth Day.


The youth of our country in 1976 have correctly responded to the directives of President OR Tambo who has instructed us that the fight for freedom must go on until it is won, until our country is free, happy and peaceful as part of the community of man, we cannot rest. The debate we are having today, should demonstrate to the young people of our nation that we too, are not resting until our freedom is won. This Budget Vote we are deliberating, which Mpumalanga supports, advances the ideal of the young people of 1976 who marched not only for better education, but for better health too. They knew then, as we know now, that education is interconnected to the health of the nation. Indeed, their fight and our fight for better education is a fight for a long life, extended life expectancy and a generally healthy society.


This Budget Vote that Mpumalanga support, has demonstrated its understanding of the struggle of our contemporary youth who are faced with the new set of challenges, including the spread of HIV/Aids, TB and other chronic diseases, which have spread in the past unabated. However, the previous Budget Vote has made strides in launching successful battles against these ills of our society and youth in particular. The budget before us advances the strides that we have made and continue to make.


The Budget Vote responds and allays the fears of President Mandela who indicated that there is nothing he fears more than waking up without a programme that will help bring a little happiness to those with no resources; those are the poor, illiterate and ridden with terminal diseases. Through this Budget Vote, President Mandela’s fears have been allayed owing to the work we are doing to roll out the National Health Insurance, which brings happiness to those with no resources. The budget’s support of the National Health Insurance is a direct response to ensure that those ridden with terminal diseases have access to better health services, health infrastructure, more importantly have an access to a qualified and experienced doctor as well as health practitioners.


President Mandela departed to the world of the immovable encouraged with the progress we have made in introducing tangible programme that help in bringing little happiness with those with no resources and those that are poor. Our programme of Phakisa 2 as launched by President Jacob Zuma, that of an ideal clinic, which responds to this programme, is a programme to bring health facilities close to our people and health facilities that meet six key priority areas.


As part of speeding the programme of ideal clinics, particularly in Mpumalanga, through this Budget Vote, we are in a process of constructing five new primary health care facilities in the following areas: That is Nhlazatshe 6, Vukuzakhe, Mkhondo, Msukaligwa and a mini-hospital in Balfour.

Just six days ago, South Africa hosted the 7th Aids Conference in Durban with special focus on finding ways to ensure that this pandemic disease is dealt with effectively and does not continue to spread.


In his opening address at the Aids Conference in Durban, the Deputy President of the Republic and Chairperson of the SA National Aids Council, Sanec, hon Cyril Ramaphosa, reminded us that, ”We are all part of this problem and this challenge. None of us escapes this challenge. Together we must confront it”. This Budget Vote, which Mpumalanga supports give meaning to the warning of the Deputy President and is encouraging everyone to be involved in the fight against the scourge.


This Budget Vote through its programme and sub-programmes adequately responds to the instruction of President Nyerere who said, “If a door is shut, attempts should be made to open it; if it is ajar, it should be pushed until it is wide open”. The door of life has been closed for many women and infants through high mortality rates in our facilities.


However, responding to the instruction of President Nyerere that if a door is shut; attempts should be made to open it. Through our programmes such as mom-connect, the Cuban doctor programme, which contributes in our efforts to improve the prevention of mother to child and reduction of all mortalities in our facilities, we have made significant achievements.


The Budget Vote we are supporting as Mpumalanga bear testimony that indeed, we are a nation at work and we are moving Mpumalanga forward. Through successive Budget Votes of this department, in Mpumalanga alone, the provincial average life expectancy has increased from 50,2 for males to 56,9 this year while female’s life expectancy has also increased from the previously unchanged life expectancy of 53 years to 60,1 this year.


This was achieved through the continued roll out and sustenance of the household community components of the Integrated Management of Childhood Illness, where an additional 11 sites were added to the previously reported 47 sites. This brings the total number of sites to 58.


The Budget Vote we are supporting addresses the health infrastructure problems that we inherited from apartheid. Under the legacy of apartheid, our government continues to rebuild some of the dilapidated infrastructure, but equally building new infrastructure to ensure that health facilities are closer tour people.


These infrastructures we are building assist us in advancing towards the achievement of the six key priority areas which delivers a better health care system.

We support this Budget Vote because it supports initiative of Innovative Building Technology structures, IBT, which are being implemented in some of our facilities, particularly in Mpumalanga.


The Freedom Charter instructs our democracy to have a government of the people, by the people, for the people through its clause, the people shall govern. The health system has responded to this clause through the establishment of hospital boards and clinic committees in all our facilities.


This Budget Vote continues to capacitate these structures to effectively involve our people in the governance of our health system. Perhaps an appeal is appropriate at this point that our people, particularly the youth, must make it fashionable to participate in these structures and effectively use our suggestion boxes in our facilities.


Allow me as I conclude, to venture into the wisdom of President Patrice lumumba, who guided us to be proud that we belong to a great nation, a great country, and a mighty power. These power which the imperialist envy today, particularly those in blue and with their unholy friends in red, is embodied in the national unity. This must be the heritage that we shall leave to our children. I thank you. [Applause.]


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, hon Ministers, hon members, a crucial component of the National Development Plan, NDP, is to commit to giving quality and affordable health care to South Africans. It is time that we admit that the National Health Insurance is currently being handled sluggishly by the National Health Department.


The 2015 budget only intentions mentions the release of the White Paper in early 2015, but a recent answer to a parliamentary question has revealed that the National Health Insurance, NHI, White Paper and Finance Paper will only be released before the end of December 2015. The Green Paper was released three years ago, hon Minister. Considering that approximately two-thirds of the NHI still needs to be rolled out, how can we continue if we have no indication on how it will be financed or what the actual policy is?


The DA has yet again raised the poor allocation given to primary health care in this year’s budget. With this being our communities and the more vulnerable of South Africans first interaction with the health care system, it should feature high on our priority list. We need to get our primary health care system in order, so that we are able to focus on treating diseases and increasing our medical research output. This is crucial, especially with the focus that the Minister rightly so intend to place on TB and effective treatment thereof.


Just to note, in the past four years, this department has incurred R1,2 billion in litigation costs, due to medical malpractice. This should be another priority for the National Department of Health. It is simple. If we have better trained health care professionals and the ANC stops cadre deployment, you might be able to allocate more of the budget to primary health care, and especially to TB treatment.


If we do not have a clear plan, this department will fail its commitments to our people as seen by common occurring issues within the Health Department such as medicine shortages and vacancy gaps.


I am proud to say that in the Western Cape where the DA governs we are the best performer in South Africa. You don’t want to hear it, but that is the truth. The Western Cape also has the highest TB cure rate and we are aware that TB needs even more focus in future. The key difference between a DA government and an ANC government is that in a DA government, we know that our policies and strategies ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr J R Tau): Can you conclude hon member?


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... must change to meet the growing demand of the people we serve.


I just want to remind hon colleagues ... Hon Chair ... [Interjections]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr J R Tau): Can you conclude hon member?


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... can I just conclude the sentence? That the Western Cape was till recently, the only province receiving funding through the Global Fund for HIV/Aids programmes, based on their performance and management thereof. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr S J MOHAI: Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers and MECs for Health present here, hon members, this budget policy debate takes place at a most defining and critical moment in the history of our evolving democracy. Of critical importance is that the debate takes place hardly a few days before the 60th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, which has become the collective aspiration of the people of South Africa about the kind of society they want in a postapartheid South Africa.


As our late president, O R Tambo, said on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Freedom Charter:


The Freedom Charter contains the fundamental perspective of the vast majority of the kind of liberation that all of us are fighting for. Hence it is not merely the Freedom Charter of the ANC and its allies. Rather it is charter of the people of South Africa for liberation. Because it came from the people, it remains still a people’s charter, the basic political statement of our goals to which all genuinely democratic and patriotic forces of South Africa adheres.


Allow me to begin on a note that lays bare the plain truth that is always not said. We must remind this House that the ANC and its allies lived the Freedom Charter for 60 years of its existence, with their policy architecture and organisational practices grounded in and shaped by it without vacillation. As much as it is a collective vision of all democratic and patriotic forces, its lifeblood is undeniably in the ANC, without whose heartbeat the charter will lose meaning.


This therefore imposes an immense task upon the ANC to continuously locate and measure its policy performance in the task of transformation against the Freedom Charter. We do this not as idle electoral posturing, but because all that we have presented to South Africans since 1994 is an agenda for fundamental social transformation. We refer to this when assessing our progress and the challenges we encountered when responding to the complexities of transformation.


Drawing up a transformation agenda is not a simple task. It is not like driving on a highway and just counting how many poles you pass. It is very involved process. Rather than grandstanding, hon members should also find time to reflect that the challenges of South Africa are both subjective and objective. The problems that face our health system have been highlighted on a number of occasions. It’s a very involved process that we must continue to transform.


We came into government in 1994, already fully conscious of the disparities created by apartheid racist policies. We laid the foundation for the health sector that we sought to create in our land. The “Ready to Govern” document of the ANC outlined the provision of equitable health care, stating that it should be guided by the aspirations of our people as enshrined in the charter.


Our approach to health care is also reiterated in our health plan for South Africa, which was adopted in 1994. That plan proposed the creation of a single, comprehensive, equitable and integrated national health system based on the principles of equity, the right to health, and a primary health care approach.


That plan was influenced by our belief that health provision is not a standalone matter. We argued in our “Ready to Govern” document that, for people to be healthy, it is necessary that families earn enough money to be able to live decent lives, and work under safe conditions. People need decent housing, adequate and safe water, and sufficient nourishing food. There must be adequate and decent toilet facilities, and appropriate and effective waste disposal. This includes getting rid of rubbish and of industrial and human waste in ways that will not damage the environment. Health is also improved where people have a reasonable standard of education, and opportunities for... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Is that a point of order? Please hold on, hon Mohai.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I just wanted to know whether the hon member would be willing to take a question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to take a question, hon Mohai?


Mr S J MOHAI: I will deal with it in great detail in our provincial delegation details. [Laughter.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: He is not prepared to take a question. Please continue.


Mr S J MOHAI: Our approach in the National Health Insurance Green Paper seeks to address these disparities caused by the economic conditions of our people, which are, of course, historically based.


Hon members, there is no doubt that we as the ANC-led government have made serious gains in the health sector in this term of governance, including an increase in overall life expectancy, a decrease in the under-5 mortality rate, a decrease in the infant mortality rate, and a decrease in the total number of people dying from Aids. These issues are contained in the document circulated on Annual Performance Plan of the department.


A lot still needs to be done if we are to achieve a universal coverage for health provision. The mandate of the Department of Health is to improve the health status of South Africans through the prevention of illnesses, promotion of healthy lifestyles and to improve the performance of the health system. The department focuses on increasing access, eliminating fragmentation of service provision, and on many other critical policy areas.


In the same vein, we declared in our 2014 manifesto the need to intensify the implementation of the National Health Insurance system and the campaign against communicable diseases including HIV and Aids. In this regard, we welcome government’s commitment, through Minister Motsoaledi, to intensify the implementation of the NHI, which is to be based on universal coverage.


The cover will entitle individuals and households to defined and comprehensive packages of health care services provided through appropriately accredited and contracted public and private health care service providers. It will cover even all other people, as defined by existing legislation.


We also welcome the concomitant establishment of the NHI Fund whose role will be to receive funds; pool and purchase services on behalf of the entire population; be publicly administered; be a single purchaser with subnational offices at provincial level; and negotiate and contract with health care providers.


Our response as a movement is profoundly captured in the National Development Plan, NDP. In this regard, I want to... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mohai, please hold on. Is that a point of order, hon member?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to know whether the member is willing to take a question.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you prepared to take a question, hon Mohai?


Mr S J MOHAI: [Inaudible.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he is not prepared.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I am not in his provincial delegation...


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Hon member, you asked whether the member is prepared to take a question. The member is not.


Please continue, hon Mohai.


Mr S J MOHAI: Chairperson, in this regard, we welcome the Minister’s call to draw our attention to the prevalence of TB, not just as a mere statistical date, but as a programmatic response by our government to combat , with specific focus on Lejweleputswa district in the Free State and other mentioned districts.


We commit ourselves in the ANC to pay unflinching attention to this urgent situation. In doing so we will not create sensation and seek media publicity but will rather deal with the legacy of apartheid and the root causes of a system that reduced our African majority in the southern African region to performing dehumanising working in hazardous environmental conditions.


Another member boasted here that TB prevalence in the Western Cape is not as is... [Inaudible.] The hon member must be advised to struggle against ignorance. The hon member must understand that the Minister highlighted mining provinces in South Africa in which the exploitation of workers has taken root. Those who exploited the resources of our country used them to advance their countries elsewhere. We cannot ignore the facts when dealing with this matter.

Minister Motsoaledi highlighted three crucial issues when he tabled the budget in the National Assembly on 5 May. The first was the successful implementation of NHI. The second was the outcomes of the Competition Commission’s public market inquiry, led by former Chief Justice Ngcobo, into the cost of private health care. The last was the issues pertaining to the explosion of medico-legal litigation.


These three issues are crucial for the health system in South Africa and have to be decided upon.


I am from the Free State. Much progress has taken place in the Free State. Health care provision in the Free State is functional. Over 447 000 people were tested for HIV/Aids, and new patients were initiated on antiretroviral drugs. Forty-nine fully fledged ward-based outreach teams are functional, covering 73 wards. [Interjections.] Many other issues are highlighted as progress.


Let me conclude by congratulating the Ministry and the provinces that have already implemented the pilot programmes for the NHI. We must particularly congratulate those hospitals in our country that have established the ward-based teams. Our focus therefore should be on those wards without proper facilities, those with challenges around water and sanitation and those with a lack of road infrastructure and other necessary amenities.


It is our profound belief in the ANC that we have done a lot in terms of delivering universal coverage on health care; with the NHI, we can only take it a step further. We are indeed in support of this Budget Vote and the policy approach that places a renewed emphasis on equity and social justice in health care in South Africa. By supporting this health budget, we know that we demand that the Freedom Charter must be implemented that said that the provision of health care shall be run by the state, that free medical care and hospitalisation shall be provided for all with special care given to mothers and young children. Since 1994 we have made fundamental progress in this regard. I thank you.


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, you know I tried my best to speak about the budget for us all as a country because South Africa is a military state. However, time and again it happens very often that members of the DA like balkanising South Africa back into the Bantustan, either, by keeping on saying in the Western Cape this, in the Western Cape that. I am very reluctant to do that. It happens even in the National Assembly. You don’t have to compare like that.


Chairperson, when the Lancet issued a report - the Lancet is one of the best well-known medical journals in the world, a British Medical Journal – that South Africa is going through a quadruple burden of diseases through our own researchers, there was one special chapter where they were talking about the historical problems of South Africa. They were explaining why the Western Cape had a lot of advantages during apartheid because there was no Bantustan here; and there were not many Africans and they were not allowed and they outlined that.


Now, I was not going to enter into this competition but because these things are recorded, they need to be corrected. For instance, when in your mode of competition, because you like competing, you say look TB cure rate is the highest. Our figures of TB cure rate which the World Health Organisation is going to announce this year is 86,3% in KwaZulu-Natal, 86,2% in Gauteng and 83,7% in the Western Cape. The target for the World Health Organisation is 85%, only KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng have already reached that target of the World Health Organisation. Nationally, our average is 82%. I just wanted to correct some of these issues.


The issue of generators - as if we are irresponsible - I personally issued a document to all the MECs about generators because of load shedding. I hear a story here about Rob Fereira Hospital - unless something happened - however, in January, what I know is that Rob Fereira Hospital had three generators which were installed in 2010. One of them was damaged by fire in 2011 and it was repaired and all three of them are working. The fourth one has not yet been connected.


What I also know is that clinics in South Africa never used to have generators, but because we are piloting the ideal clinic method, we have already installed generators in 10 clinics [Applause.] In our plans - if you go and check it is also in our manifesto – we are going to refurbish 870 health facilities in the country. In the plan of refurbishing for the clinics, we are installing generators. Clinics never had generators. It is our government that is introducing them. I can take you to the 10 clinics to see already what I am talking about. Therefore, this is not just theoretical. The issue of Cuba has already been mentioned by many members here and I don’t have to repeat it.


Hon Vawda of the EFF, I am surprised you say we cannot solve the problem through National Health Insurance, NHI, but you go on to quote universal health coverage and Prof Diane McIntyre who is in the Ministerial advisory committee on NHI. Everything you have quoted from her is NHI. So, I am confused what the problem is. However, the other proposal you are making about TB, we are already doing that. Everything you said about the centralisation, etc, we are doing that. There is an argument here that we promised – I think it is from hon Khawula, if I am not mistaken - R2 500 decentralised sides, we only have two shifty; that is very true. It happened because we are using money from global fund. Unfortunately, there was a delay; we only received that money 11 months ago.


This is the work we did in 11 months but the global fund has already approved a sum of R24 million. We can exchange it into rands; we will start using it from March next year for another three years. To do this job, then we will reach R2 500. Therefore, we accept that the problem came from there. However, we are correcting it. So, there was no way we could have reached this R2 500 within 11 months. We did not anticipate that that money after being transferred will take so long to come.


The last issue, hon Labuschagne, is the issue of primary health care. We agree with you 100%. If you check all our documents, even in the NHI, that primary health care is the heart beat of the NHI and the health care system. There is nowhere we can leave it at this. It is the heart beat, the centre and that is why we are sending these students to Cuba where Cuba specialises in primary health care because the DA is actually refusing to send them. I don’t understand why you even talk about primary health care because you hate it. You can go to the World Health Organisation, they will tell you; the number one primary health care in the whole world is Cuba. That is how the students are changing the primary health care. You have rejected it. How come you stand here and even mention the word primary health care? It is very surprising. Please, get your facts very clear so that we don’t get confused. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


Appropriation bill


Debate on Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs


The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, hon members, I have an opportunity and indeed a pleasure to table the budget policy speech and programmes as well as priorities of the Department of Environmental Affairs Vote 27 in this august House.


Hon members, when the drafters of our Constitution of the Republic of South Africa embodied the environmental rights within the Constitution, which is law number one in our country, they evidenced not only foresight, but also an unwavering commitment to recognising the rights of our future generations.


Developing countries such as ours are at greater risk to environmental damage because of increasing demand of resource extraction, reliance on fossil fuels and the vulnerability of indigent communities. At the same time, we recognise that South Africa’s rich endowment of natural resources and mineral deposits, if not used responsibly, these can actually be very detrimental if we don’t use them in a manner that will ensure that we grow an inclusive economy, while addressing job creation, poverty eradication and also dealing with inequality.


The policy instruments that have been put in place by the ANC government – listen I am not even saying led government -  address developmental imperatives in an environmentally sustainable manner, and build resilience to the effects of climate change, particularly in poor communities. Don’t make a mistake if I am red I am reclaiming our colours. They are of the party and the Cosatu. [Interjections.] We continue to work with our partners in provinces and municipalities, to ensure that collectively, we meet our constitutional obligations.


Hon members, we continue to regard provinces as the engine rooms of our country: it is in the provinces that practical initiatives of environmental protection and sustainable use of our natural resources are happening; that our young people are working to protect our environment, that investment in the green sector is on the rise; and where jobs are being created for our people.


This national budget is an enabler for our provinces, localities and communities to work together and ensure that our country’s future development trajectory is charted.


It is within this context that we continue to register successes: that range from the continent’s biggest solar photo-voltaic, PV, plants in the Gamagara District Municipality in the Northern Cape being connected to the national energy grid, to the opening of Africa’s first-ever Coca-Cola contracted bottle-to-bottle recycling plant in the Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality in Gauteng, to the Climate Resilience project for small-scale farmers in the uMgungundlovu District Municipality in Kwa-Zulu Natal.

The environmental sector continues to be a hub of job creation, foreign direct investment, and skills training. It is our obligation to ensure that this sector contributes positively to our government’s job creation targets.


With regards to green economy, hon members, the impact of a climate change caused by greenhouse gas, GHG, emissions poses one of the greatest developmental challenges of the 21st century. This necessitates that we prioritize climate change responses that have significant GHG mitigation benefits, simultaneously addressing economic growth.


Through our Green Economy Strategy, we continue to promote equitable, inclusive and sustainable economic growth and social development. Our Green Economy Strategy – by the way many of you may not be aware of it, please go and read it. It has 8 key pillars, namely; green buildings and the built environment; sustainable transport and infrastructure; clean energy and energy efficiency; natural resource conservation and management; sustainable waste management; water management; sustainable consumption and production and agriculture food production and forestry.


As outlined in our Integrated Resource Plan, by 2030 we aim to have changed our energy sources significantly, through technological innovation, efficiency in behavioural practice and public commitment to other areas like transport, water use and managing the waste in the manner in which we generate it and re-use it.


Let me turn to the programmes as alluded to in our book as you have seen it and in the budget. Regarding the green fund, hon members, we are well advanced in implementing one of our key interventions to facilitate the transition to a green economy: through the National Green Fund, established in 2012.


In 2012, this fund was allocated an initial amount of R800 million and has now received an additional R590 million over the MTEF to continue in this good work we are doing. Already to date, we have 53 approved projects across the country, that are ranging from research to new innovations and indeed to the green energy – they are on course. Siyaqhuba! [We are moving forward.]


Let us look at the EPWP, the environmental programmes. This has been the primary vehicle through which we as the Department of Environmental Affairs deliver on our job creation mandate. Our EPWP budget has been allocated R8 billion over the MTEF programme and has actually been around the land restoration, water resource and ecosystem and management sectors. The Deputy Minister will talk to these issues as she comes on board and I am not going to take most of your time dealing with those matters.


I now want to move directly to waste. The waste sector continues to be a source of job creation co-benefits. Reducing, recovering or minimising waste provides opportunities for socioeconomic development; new jobs and businesses; maximising resource recovery for downstream manufacturing growth and reducing reliance on declining natural resources.


As we deal with unlicensed landfill sites, in supporting of our province, we have to date licensed 178 out of a total of 341, the outstanding unlicensed are also on course with 69 newly identified, which means is a difference between 341 and 178 added to the 69, we are on course with licensing those.


The Integrated Waste Management Plans that we implement in consultation with municipalities primarily assist municipalities to plan for the recycling of waste, waste infrastructure and the expansion of waste services to unserviced households.


During the financial year of 2014-15, our department trained 106 municipal officials in 31 local municipalities within the 27 priority district as identified by our government and municipalities to develop their own Integrated Waste Management Plans using the IWMP guideline and web-portal.


In this financial year, we will continue with the training of 200 municipality officials on the development of Integrated Waste Management Plans using the portal and other aspects of sustainable waste management systems. Another success story has been the waste tyre-recycling sector.


In November 2012 we approved the implementation of the REDISA plan, an industry waste tyre management plan. Its objective is to promote the sound management of waste tyres while also contributing to economic growth. As of December 2014, the following milestones have been achieved: 53 143 tons of the waste tyres have been diverted away from landfill: either being recycled, used for energy recovery or re-used – it’s a lot; 1 981 jobs have been created; 181 SMMEs have been created in transporting, depot operations, processing and micro collectors.


We are continuing this year and our target is 254 additional SMMEs, and 2 600 jobs up till the end of this financial year. We are going and moving forward ladies and gentlemen.


With regards to the youth jobs in waste initiative that was piloted in Phuthaditjhaba in the Free State, is now being implemented in all Provinces. This project boosts the capacity of the municipalities to delivery on waste services. Youth have been placed in municipalities as Landfill site Assistants, Waste Collection Administrators, and Environmental Awareness Educators. We no longer call them bomalayisa or anything, these are real professional jobs because they have been trained in a proper manner. This programme has been rolled out in six provinces; namely, the Free State, North West, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Gauteng and Eastern Cape.


I now want to turn to the chemicals sector which remains an important contributor to our economy. However, the unmanaged releases of hazardous chemicals into the environment do actually pose a significant risk. We are mindful of that issue and we have prioritised the development of a sound chemical management policy, regulation, compliance and implementation programme for this year.


A further priority will be to facilitate the implementation of the secondary asbestos remediation plan. The construction of the asbestos-free at the Mafefe Traditional Council is underway in the Limpopo Municipality. The Khiba School, which was situated at a very risk area in the John Taolo Gaetsewe District Municipality in the Northern Cape, has been attended to through ensuring that the learners are moved from that high risk school to another school which is at Ga-Mopedi village.


With regard to the air quality, I would like to say that this ANC government continues to advance the pro-poor and predevelopment air quality laws and regulations. Industry compliance has been assessed and it is expected that full compliance with the new air quality standards be attained by 2025, in line with the staggered implementation approach that we have agreed to.


This will be attained without hindering the growth of a sustainable economy. This is the reason why we staggered it. There are currently 102 government-owned air quality monitoring stations country-wide that give data to the SA Air Quality Information System which is managed by the SA Weather Services.


Hon members, regarding biodiversity management, one of our priorities for this year is growing a sustainable, inclusive and transformed biodiversity economy within communities. In the past, our biodiversity resources were exploited to the exclusion of communities who are at times owners of the indigenous knowledge system.


Last year, we concluded the process of amending the Bioprospecting, Access and Benefit Sharing Regulations. This was to streamline the permitting process as well to address key constraints in the policy to ensure effective and efficient participation by all key stakeholders.


In the village of Dakeni village near Eshowe in Zululand, the Edakeni Muthi Futhi Trust is one examples of how this government’s progressive legislation has resulted in community benefits. This women-led co-operative cultivates, processes and produces on site medicines from medicinal plants and develop them into commercial products.


The women of Muthi Futhi also run a sales nursery and a processing plant on site, while following the best practice in terms of environmental compliance and other regulatory requirements. It is no longer a thing of the past where people used to be just pharmacist to produce these medicines. The wider community also benefits, and have a profit share in the business.


This year we will embark on further awareness raising and building capacity with relevant government departments, communities, and the regulated sectors to ensure a smooth transition to the by prospecting new regulatory requirements. We will be hosting a Second Biodiversity Economy Indaba this year to consult with stakeholders on the opportunities, challenges and solutions to grow the sector. [Interjections.]


Thank you, Chair. I would like to say that in line with that work we are also looking at the conservation area where our people are to be benefiting in terms of ensuring that they too get the allocated money of about R796 million in the people and parks programme.


We are going forward in dealing with oceans economy, as we have announced last year. But we are also going forward in the climate change and ensuring that South Africa is well-represented, and indeed, making its voice heard in order to attain that agreement that we all need, by December in the 21st Conference of Parties, Cop 21, in Paris. I would like to thank you very much, hon Chair and hon members. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr O SEFAKO: Hon House Chair, hon permanent delegates of the NCOP, hon Minister, hon Deputy Ministers, DGs, distinguished guests, our listeners and viewers at home, I greet you all. It is in deed a great pleasure to participate in this Budget Vote 27 of the Department of Environmental Affairs for 2015-16. I do confirm that the department has presented its strategic plan, the annual performance plan before the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources.


On engagement, there were in deed healthy engagements with proposals and suggestions. It is true as reflected on the 2015 state of the nation address by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of South Africa when he said, “South Africa is a better place to live in than it was before 1994”. I am not going to make any reflection between a period 1652 and 1994. It is a history well known and that is why we can say that statement is true. That is an irrefutable statement.


The sector has a potential of pushing back the scourge of poverty, inequality and unemployment. In this month, we have celebrated a Youth Day and we are commemorating 21 years of democratic governance and the 60 th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter which was held in adverse atmospheric conditions on the 26 June 1955. The people of South Africa, mobilised by the ANC, were not deterred or disturbed by being surrounded by the dogs of the apartheid, who were heavily armed as they were surrounding them.


They continued and adopted this Freedom Charter despite all those hardships. After concluding they started chanting A e boe Afrika, i-Afrika Mayibuye. The Freedom Charter says, “All shall enjoy equal human rights”. These rights extend to the environment we live in. All South Africans have the right to safe drinking water, clean air and the protections of the environment for this and the future generation.


Key to ensuring environmental sustainability is the unlocking of economic opportunities and environmentally sustainable local economies in the rural areas. The Freedom Charter is a precursor of Act 106 of 1996 which is commonly characterised as a supreme law of this country or the Constitution. The ANC was party to the crafting of this Act. Members of the ANC such as the Deputy President played an important role and other members in crafting this Constitution.


Building on the Constitutions, South Africa has developed a very strong set of environmental laws governing the natural environment. Key pieces of legislative include National Environmental Management, Biodiversity Act, the National Environmental Management Air Quality Act and so forth. Nature, society and thought are interdependent and integrated.

On the issue of prosperity without the environmental sustainability, the ANC-led government take it serious the need to protect water sources needed in urban areas, agriculture and industrial sectors. Section 24 of the Constitution gives further guidance on how to prevent pollutions and degradations; promote conservations and secure ecological sustainable environment and use of natural resources.


Chapter 5 of the National Development Plan, NDP, as well as the Industrial Policy Action Pan, Ipap, clearly place the high value on the environmental sustainability as well encouraging the development of green economy, opportunities in renewable energy, waste reduction, land rehabilitations and a shift towards low carbon emissions.


There are good stories despite all other challenges. The department aims to create 107 193 full time employment and 224 643 work opportunities through Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP. The truth needs to be told because there are some emerging fascist forces which will be indicating to the left but turning to the extreme right. They disperse information that is misleading our youth that EPWP is Epa Wena Popae. EPWP is Fetsa Tlala. Do not despise the dignity of labour.


The department’s ocean economic development strategy has the potential to contribute R26 billion to the GDP, creates 55 000 direct jobs by 2019. There are, of course, some challenges. The environmental sector is currently observing how the New One Environmental System’s one-stop application for the Department of Mineral Resources is operating. It is expected that there will be some early challenges with regards to conflicting goals of mining and end environmental management.


There is also a scourge of wildlife cry including rhino and abalone poaching. As I have alluded that in deed we engaged the department and found out that there is sterling work done by the department in terms fighting these criminals who are a threat to the extinction of our rhino in the country. In deed the department did that with a support.


We are therefore saying as the ANC we support this Budget Vote 27 amounting to R. [Time expired.]


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon House Chair, hon Minister and hon members, sustainable development towards a better quality of life for all is the core business of the Department of Environmental Affairs.


I would like to focus on two of the objectives from the Natural Resources Management Programmme, as these objectives are transversal and cross cut most of the important issues and challenges of this department. The first important objective in this program is the investment in the development of new green sectors and industries. This program is vital to the sustainability of our environment and all future programmes to follow.


The National Development Plan states that by 2030, 50 million jobs can be created within this department. We all agree that jobs - real jobs, is the one defining factor that would ensure that every South African citizen can experience opportunities, real freedom and fairness.


Currently, job creation in this department is largely done through the environmental programmes, specifically through the Expanded Public Works Program, EPWP. These programmes do not only help prevent environmental degradation but also train unskilled youth who subsequently contribute to the livelihoods of their families.


The EPWP as a temporary job creation tool is undeniably important, but one need to ask if it would not be more sustainable to shift some of the funding and employment opportunities into green economy developments. The Natural Resources Management Programmme - Working for Water, Working for Wetlands, Working for Ecosystems, Working for Forests, Working on Fire, Working for Biomass to Energy and Working for Value-Added Industries are necessary programs. Bigger focus on the biomass to energy and the value-added industries would not only expand job opportunities but could also create opportunities for communities to get involved with conservation. It is good to know that one of the value-added industries projects, namely Eco-Furniture, has been implemented in Mosselbay, right here in the Western Cape.


The second important objective is threats to biodiversity and to the environmental integrity management and that includes climate change impacts, pollution management, waste and chemical management and alien invasive species. The Minister highlighted quite a few of them.


With reference to air quality management, the department states that they aim to compile and monitor a framework for reporting greenhouse gas emissions by industry. An important part of air quality management is that government and other stakeholders have to implement specific interventions to be able to develop a framework for reporting, for an example, greenhouse gas emissions.


It is of great concern that the department only achieved 65% of their proposed air quality management interventions. Local government implemented 52% and other national departments achieved 50% while 50% could not be ascertained. Industry, however, implemented 78% of their interventions.


Isn’t it ironic that the department spend quite a formidable amount of time and taxpayers money on attending all the various Conference of the Parties, or Cops, as we know them. But as the lead department, it cannot get other departments to perform according to their agreements while the industries are legally bound to comply and implement these interventions.


I don’t want to spend the money the way you spend it, hon Dlamini. The department states further that they want to evaluate the 2000 to 2012 greenhouse gas emissions inventory reports. In 2014, some alarming aspects of the greenhouse gas emission profile was released, including the fact that South Africa is the 12th largest emitter of carbon dioxide emissions in the world and is responsible for nearly half of the CO2 emissions for the African continent. The energy sector, including electricity generation, petroleum refining and transportation is responsible for the largest share of emissions, accounting for more than 80% of the total emissions.


This department is the lead department to protect and enhance environmental assets and natural resources. Solutions must be found sooner than later to remedy the impact of coal mining and coal-powered electricity generation as well as the impact of acid mine drainage. That is if the department and the government as a whole is really serious about section 24 (a) of our Constitution.


Therefore, I would like to urge the hon Minister to walk the talk on all the international agreements that points in one big direction, green economy! Be politically brave and innovative by supporting the aggressive development of sustainable alternatives to coal-powered electricity generation. An increased focus on Green Fund opportunities as a more sustainable employment generator would be a step in the right direction for a more sustainable future.


Unlocking the economic potential of South Africa’s oceans or Operation Phakisa has the potential for economic growth and further job creation. A concern, however, is compliance to all the international agreements on various levels, to the comprehensive existing and envisioned legal framework without further compromising our already polluted rivers and by implication, our oceans.


The goal to increase waste diverted from landfills by 25% in this financial year is welcomed. Waste management on all levels is crucial and has the potential to become a crisis if not managed in an innovative and proactive way. Waste should be managed as an asset and a sector for job opportunities, as the Minister already explained in her address.


To conclude, wildlife crime is a serious threat in South Africa. Currently the priority is rhino protection. The number of rhinos poached inside our national parks increased despite the concerted efforts to stop the killings. The renewed efforts such as utilisation of the Green Scorpions and other law enforcement strategies are indeed welcomed. But it is high time we enforce international understanding and agreements through political engagement to ensure that we save endangered species like the rhino from extinction, otherwise, our future generations wouldn’t know what a rhino is. I thank you.


Mr J P PARKIES: House Chair, hon Minister, hon members of this House, we are engaged in a long-standing process of reconstruction of our society. Our quest is to build and reconstruct egalitarian society worth of human beings. The ANC policy position on environmental issues has its origins in the Reconstruction and Development Programme. It is this vision that has informed the various policies, programmes and actions of government since 1994.


The ANC has played a leading role in shaping the global debates on environmental justice, including the participation in various platforms and summits. At these historic forums, the ANC has consistently championed a progressive response to the environmental dimensions of development challenges facing Africa and other countries.


We want to say to the Minister and the Deputy Minister, we support the efforts made about the R85 million, dedicated for the marine spatial plan as it is mentioned. The ocean plays a significant role in understanding the climate variability and the impact of the ocean on the infrastructure, economy, as well as the livelihoods of our people within the coastal cities and towns. The marine and coastal environments are national assets, which provide and sustain a wide range of economic, social and ecological services that are a foundation for the livelihoods of millions of South Africans.


The oceans on the coasts of South Africa have led to the establishment of thriving industries in shipping, port infrastructure, mining and tourism. We want to recommend to the Minister and the Deputy Minister that the 53 projects identified must include our deep rural areas. We are saying, the employment opportunities and the wealth are supposed to be in the hands of our people. We want to acknowledge and appreciate the 14 communities that have been given their land back.


South Africa is a significant contributor to the global climate change owing to its energy intensive economy and predominantly coal–based power generation. South Africa is also particularly vulnerable to the impacts of climate change, which is expected to impact negatively on food and water security, economic activity, human health, physical infrastructure and natural resources. This also affects the work and the economic activity in terms of agriculture. South Africa has set short-term, medium-term and long-term vision towards an environmentally sustainable climate change and the resilient low-carbon economy.


In the past 20 years, we have entailed a steady evolution of climate change mitigation planning and governance of climate change in a response to the provincial and municipal levels. The ANC noted that at present, South Africa is one of the largest emitters of greenhouse gases per capita, and from the beginning of the next decade South Africa will be held accountable to a global regime that limits greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, significant action will need to be taken to alter the trajectory of growth of our energy mix.


House Chair, on biodiversity and conservation - just alert me when I’m left with three minutes please.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, on a point of order, I would like to know whether the member would like to take a question please.


Mr J P PARKIES: If I remember well I have only ten minutes. So I don’t have space for questions.




Mr J P PARKIES: I’m left with five minutes, okay. Chair, South Africa is considered the third most megadiverse country in the world after Brazil and Indonesia. Megadiverse countries are a group of countries that contain the majority of the earth species and are therefore considered extremely biologically diverse. This group of countries represents less than 10% of the global surface, but supports more than 70% of the biological diversity on earth.


In 20 years, numerous developments have taken place in terms of protection of South Africa’s biodiversity, introduction of regulations and norms and standards. Chair, we want to congratulate and appreciate the work that is being done by the department when it comes to the issues pertaining to spatial biodiversity information. We also appreciate the work of the department on Rhino poaching which present a security threat in the region and in our country.


Chair, the last point that I want to raise to the department is that we need to deepen the work and be so aggressive in terms of building the critical mass consciousness of our people, in relation to the relation to their environment. Thank you. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chair, our Minister, hon members of the NCOP and our officials that are present, guided by the Constitution, one of government’s driving goals is to build a healthy South Africa. This noble effort finds resonance in the Constitution’s promise that South Africans have a right to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing, and to have the environment protected for the benefit of present and future generations to come.


Let me touch a bit on biodiversity. This sector has the potential to contribute significantly to our country’s development aspirations, as captured in the National Development Plan, NDP. To this effect, we plan to formally launch a number of wildlife-based enterprises in several provinces. The focus will mainly be to improve infrastructure, develop skills and training, and create jobs. Before I move on, however ...


Ngiyathanda ukuthi ngithi kubalulekile ukuthi abantu bethu bazi ukuthi lengxenye yomnotho yayifihlekile kubona babengayazi. Ngisho namakhambi nalezi zilwane ezincane ezikhona, abantu ababezuza babembalwa kakhulu. Ngamanye amazwi lohulumeni lo wethu nalo Mnyango abanye abantu ubaveze izinqa obala ukuthi babe ogombela kangakanani kwesabo. Sesiye sibezwe manje bezoma la bezokhuluma ngokumbiwayo okwendalo, kanti esikwaziyo ukuthi bona bebekuthatha lokhu okumbiwayo okwendalo abakhuluma ngako bekuvuna bodwana bakuthathe bakuwelise... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[I would like to say that it is important that our people should know that this part of the economy was hidden from them and they didn’t know about it. Even the medicinal herbs and these small creatures, the people who benefited from them were very few. In other words this current government and the department has exposed how greedy the other people were. We now see them coming here and telling us about the natural resources, but what we know is that they used to take the natural resources they are talking about and harvest them alone and export ...]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, hon Minister. Why are you on your feet, hon Mtileni?


Mr V E MTILENI: If Mama doesn’t mind, she can continue in English. Then there is no problem.




...Usuyocela ubaba uKhawula akulekelele [Ubuwelewele] [. . . you will have to ask hon Khawula to assist you.[Interjections.]


Mr V E MTILENI: Sorry?




Mr V E MTILENI: Angizwa lutho lana. [I can’t hear anything here.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, please go to Channel number 2. Thank you very much. Continue, Ma.

Ngithi lohulumeni okhona oholwa u-ANC abanye ubaveze izinqa obala ukuthi babe ogombela kanganani kwesabo ngoba amakhambi lawa babewathatha bawase emazweni angaphandle, bawathuthukise bawabuyise esethuthukile bese siyawathenga thina sonke eselapho emashalofini emakhemisi bengazange bazuze abantu abamnyama ikakhulukazi.


Kodwa siwulo Mnyango thina sithi abantu kumele bazuze kula makhambi ngoba awumnotho wawowonke umuntu waseNingizimu Afrika ngamanye amazwi ayifa lethu sonke hhayi laba bantu abambalwa. [Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[I’m saying this current government which is led by the ANC has exposed how greedy the other people were because they used to take these medicinal herbs and export them to other countries, and develop them and bring them back being developed and we would all buy them in pharmacy shelves without benefiting especially the black people.


However as this department we say people must benefit from these medicinal herbs because they are the wealth for everybody in South Africa, in other words they are the wealth for all of us and not for a few people.]]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: On education and awareness, we will be working together with our public entities and other private sector players to ensure that we take all our messages to new heights, through community awareness on waste management, climate change, rhino poaching and other environmental issues affecting our provinces and local municipalities. It is important that we work with the NCOP, as the institution representing the interests of provinces at national level, in communicating our messages.


We need to ensure that our communities are armed with more information on how their actions or inactions contribute to environmental degradation. We have been hard at work in different communities to ensure our people are equipped with the requisite information and knowledge on how they could be the champions of our environment.


We used the celebration of the World Meteorological Day this year, in the Free State, to raise the levels of awareness about the weather. The event brought together the three spheres of government, disaster management structures, surrounding community leaders and members, the business community, interest groups, and 20 public schools in the Thabo Mofutsanyane District Municipality. In addition to that, we also celebrated World Meteorological Day by including a campaign involving a school competition aimed at educating learners about climate change and its impact on the environment. The SA Weather Service regions have also been involved in outreach programmes at schools in vulnerable communities across the country to create awareness and education.

During the World Rhino Day last year, we took our celebration to Bushbuckridge in Mpumalanga as part of our awareness-raising efforts on the ongoing scourge of poaching. The day has since grown to become a global event to draw attention to the impact of poaching on the continued survival of the rhino species.


We implemented the Kids in Parks programme, affording 4 873 learners and 189 educators entry into 11 of our national parks.


Over a period of four years, the SA Weather Service has invested R6,4 million towards bursaries in climatology, meteorology, and atmospheric sciences, mainly targeting candidates from historically disadvantaged backgrounds, particularly females. A total of 120 scientists were trained and 60% of them were absorbed, while the rest were made available to the country in contribution towards capacity-building in areas that are traditionally scarce, and in critical disciplines.


Over a period of 10 years, the SA Weather Service produced about 250 scientists, and 86 forecasters have been trained since the forecasting course became formalised. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]


Ms N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetilo. Ke dumedisa Aforikaborwa ka bophara. [Chairperson, I greet all South Africans.]


The constitutional mandate of the Department of Environmental Affairs is to give effect to the right of citizens to environment that is not harmful to their health and well being, and to have the environment protected for the benefit of present and future generations.


The environmental affairs portfolio is a very cross-cutting portfolio touching the lives of South Africans in many ways from the water we drink to the food we eat. A compromised environment will lead to a compromised economic future.


Currently 55% of South Africa’s river ecosystem and 65% of wet land ecosystems types are threatened. The wet lands are the most threatened of all the country’s ecosystem types.


Where will we get the water in future, Minister if do not invest in sustaining our ecological infrastructure?


The ANC government is complicit in the shameless destruction of our ecosystem by giving mining companies a free ride to mine without water licences and not to take any responsibility for polluting our environment, you have direct responsibility for the water crisis we are about to face and the continuing poverty of our people.


These threats to the fresh water ecosystem have direct impact on the livelihood of those rural country men and women who depend on fishing to sustain their lives.


The National Protected Area Expansion Strategy had set a target of 12% of South African land to be under environmental protection. We have less than 7% of the land under protection right now.


But it is the braising nature with which you go about acquiring this land that should disgust South Africans. SANParks shamelessly denied the people of Soebatsfontein in the Northern Cape rights to land, when expanded the Namakwa national park. SANParks continues to treat the people of Makuleke in Limpopo as if they are surf ages in their own land.


Their approach to conservation is within the context of the continuation of the history of racial segregation in South Africa, using conservation as a tool to grab as much land as possible under the gist of preserving land that is of national importance.


What will be laughable hon Minister is the claim that your entity SANB is aggressively attracting black people professionals. Which professionals? Over the past few years, there has been a mass exodus of blacks staff members from that institution, because of intense racism by the white superiors.


Like a true apartheid institution apart from the human resources, all chief directors at SANB are whites, three quarters of directors are whites and there is an army of restricted and marginalised black deputy directors who are highly qualified and who are leaving the institution in droves so this is the department in crisis from its failure to deal with issues on its mandate such as protecting our natural environment, to its complicity in the continuing exclusion of black people from any decision making on matters relating to land to the precision of any emergence of black leadership in the sector.


Matlhale a ile; go setse bogwenegwene. [With the brilliant ones gone, we are only left with the corrupt.]


This department must invest in sustaining ecological infrastructure to protect our wetlands and rivers so that we can have a water secure future.


This department must revise its approach to protected areas and break up the colonial and apartheid perceptions that exclude black people, even in cases where they own the land SANParks must stop bullying in to submission.


This department must intervene at SANB to deal decisively with the demon of racism at that institution. The CEO there has done nothing other than to be a reactionary and obstacle to true transformation, as the Economic Freedom Fighter we reject this budget vote.

Mr A S SINGH: Hon Chairperson; the Minister; the Deputy Minister; hon members; officials from the department; guests in the gallery; and fellow South Africans, since it is the day after the tragedy I would at the outset like to pay tribute to the youth who lost their lives 39 years ago on June 16, 1976. We call on the youth of today to remember those brave souls who stood and fought gallantly with their lives against the oppressors who wanted to make Afrikaans a compulsory subject at schools.


It is indeed a privilege to participate in Budget Vote No 27 of 2015-16, which we fully support because this government has done a lot to bring about change for a better environment and air quality where our people now live.


The planet’s environment is every person’s responsibility because air pollution has no boundaries. Every country needs to act responsibly in protecting the environmental space that belongs to them. Quoting from the Pope's leaked letter this morning, he says that the world could see the destruction of entire ecosystems this century without urgent action on climate change. Pope Francis said further in a leaked draft of his keenly awaited encyclical on the environment, “The earth, our home, and increasingly seems to be transforming itself into an immense garbage dump.”


Global warming was mostly man-made, and developed countries have a responsibility to stem a trend that would hurt the poorest of the poor who are most affected. If the current trend continues, this century could see the effects of climate change and the unprecedented destruction of ecosystems, with grave consequences for all of us and future generations.


I would like to emphasise that global warming is a real, urgent and terrible problem of this world. Pope Francis says that the environment is a moral issue because if we don't rethink our relationship with God's creations, the consequences will be disastrous.


Our people have a right to a clean environment that is not harmful to their health and we have a responsibility to protect this environment for the benefit of generations to come. We are not the last generation. We have future generations that will blame us if we do not protect the environment.


Communities that live close to factories and oil refineries have to live there, and the poorest of the poor once again have bad air quality. This is because of the apartheid past where these industries were located close to black communities that are exposed to the highest levels of pollution. We need to regularly monitor air quality and see to it that these industries conform to acceptable standards. The industrialists will always make money to the detrimental health of the surrounding communities ... of their factories.

In the last 20 years, the ANC government has planned and built for communities away from industrial areas. This is a caring government that cares for the good health of our people and our citizens.


Our oceans have precious resources and can provide an abundance of nutritious food for our people. Operation Phakisa is aimed at growing the oceans economy, have a ripple effect on many other sections of the economy and an untapped food source that is very healthy. This is our President's initiative and I am very optimistic that it will promote our economy and create jobs in line with the goals of the National Development Plan, NDP.


Our oceans economy has the potential to contribute more than R20 billion to the gross domestic product, GDP, by 2019 and will be able to create more than one million jobs. This is a very good story to tell.


I am therefore pleased that the Department of Environmental Affairs will table the Oceans Bill during the 2015-16 financial year. This will definitely ensure the successful implementation of Operation Phakisa and it will create more jobs, thereby eradicating poverty.


This month we celebrated World Environment Day under the theme, Seven billion dreams, one planet. Keeping our environment clean could in itself lead to job creation and skills training. Our people can play an important role in our green economy strategy by developing green buildings; a sustainable low-carbon transport system; clean energy by using effective natural resources; the management of waste water; and the production of food from agriculture.


We welcome the initiative by the Minister to train the youth on waste management in all the provinces and encourage the youth to be involved on the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP. These are the future leaders of tomorrow and educating them is an investment in the future of our environment.


Our offices and homes could all be fitted with solar power systems. These systems are being used very successfully in many countries throughout the world. We welcome the establishment of the natural Green Fund. As the Minister mentioned, R800 million was used and a further R500 million has been received for this fund.


We welcome the waste management project that collected and recycled over 88 million kg of waste in 2014 alone. What some believe is waste material could be recycled and used by others.


I would like to turn to my concern, which is the fight against rhino poaching. We want to support our Minister for signing treaties with neighbouring and Asian countries to stop rhino poaching. It is unfortunate that our neighbouring countries are being used as thoroughfares for the transport of rhino horns and that our people are working closely with criminals. We want to thank all the governments for their support and co-operation to help stop rhino poaching. Our courts have now also started meting out stiffer sentences to those caught with rhino horns or who are caught trying to kill rhinos in our games reserves.


Although there is increased security and international co-operation, rhino poaching still continues at a high rate because of the myth that rhino horns have medicinal value. The Kruger National Park is one of the biggest targets for rhino poaching. This year alone, almost 200 rhinos were killed between January and April, while for the same period nationally, 393 rhinos were killed. This number is increasing annually.


More than 250 poachers themselves have been shot and killed in the rhino-poaching war. The Kruger National Park has received millions of rand from nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, to fight rhino poaching with helicopters, drones and the army, working against rhino poachers. However, poachers are still operating in our parks and some ... [Interjections.]


Mr N P MOKGOSI: O ikhuditse, o iketlile, o tswetse matlho o robetse, wa nkotsedisa le nna, ke ne kere o mo kgalemele. [He is resting, asleep, please call him to order as he makes me feel sleepy.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, take your seat hon member. Continue hon Singh.


Mr A S SINGH: Thank you. The EFF has nothing good to contribute so they will interrupt when a good debate is taking place on a very important issue. [Interjections.]




Ms L MATHYS: On a point of order: The speaker is making comments about the EFF not having anything to contribute. If that is the case, we know there is a rule called ... [Interjections.]




Ms L MATHYS: There is Rule No 50. So you must open your Rule book Chairperson if you need to. It’s called explanation ... so when we are misquoted and there is no clarity. I’m going to request that our speaker who responded to this debate provide clarity on it. However, I would kindly ask the hon speaker to please withdraw his comment unless he wants us to have a further discussion and rise on Rule 50 on the point of explanation. Thank you, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Are you are rising on Rule 50 hon Mathys? What is the problem with Rule 50?


Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, we have just had the speaker talking about the EFF not giving any substance in our debate on Environmental Affairs. So clearly he missed something. So we just want to be clear. Either he withdraws or I’m going to request that you allow us to provide clarity on what our debate is.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, take your seat. Unfortunately you cannot debate from the floor, but let me ask the hon Singh whether he did say what you have said.


Mr A S SINGH: Chair, the EFF has nothing good to contribute to the debate and I stand by that. They don’t support any budget in this House ... [Interjections.] ... and this Environmental budget is a concern, but they say to future generations that they don’t support this kind of budget.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, hon Mathys, take your seat. Hon Mtileni, take your seat. Hon Mtileni, take your seat. Yes, I will give you a chance. Take your seat now. Hon Mathys, please take your seat. I want to address you. This is a point of debate so I’m going to allow the hon Singh to continue. Continue hon Mtileni. [Interjections.] I have made a ruling. This is a point of debate and you cannot debate from the floor. Take your seat, hon Mathys. Okay let me allow you to say what you want to say hon Mtileni. Why are you rising?


Mr V E MTILENI: It’s just unfortunate ...



Mr V E MTILENI: ... that these things have to happen when you take to the podium.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): There’s nothing unfortunate. Say what you want to say and then we can continue.


Mr V E MTILENI: It might seem as if we are attacking you but we are not.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Mtileni, please say what you want to say. Are you rising on a point of order or what?


Mr V E MTILENI: On a point of order: Hon Singh says that we have nothing to contribute because we don’t support the budget.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, you will get your chance to come to the podium and debate the issue. It is now hon Singh’s time to be on the podium. Take your seat, hon Mtileni.


Mr V E MTILENI: I want you to allow him to explain himself. What does he mean?


An HON MEMBER: I will clarify outside the House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat hon Mtileni. Please conclude hon Singh.


Mr A S SINGH: Chair, I have explained. What I wanted to say was that in all the debates the EFF has nothing better to contribute and this particular debate ... [Interjections.] ... is the debate on Environment and they have no respect for the environment. They believe that ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon Mathys! Hon Singh, please take your seat. Hon Mathys that is not a point of order; that is a point of debate! [Interjections.] Is it a new one?


Ms L MATHYS: Yes. On a point of debate: Our debate is about Environmental Affairs. That is what we are on. It is not about the EFF’s contribution to debates. So I’m asking the hon speaker to kindly withdraw his comment because if he wants to have a debate on the EFF’s contributions to policy debates and Votes we will have that. We can move a motion but now we are here discussing the Environmental debate. So he must stick to the debate and not to the EFF.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, please take your seat. Hon acting Chief Whip?


Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: House Chairperson ... [Laughter.] ... I think it is very important and we have made this point before as the ANC in this House. Many times members of the EFF will rise, not only on points of order that are vexatious but also on points of order that are not points of order. They have a tendency to delay the debate in the House with points of order that are actually vexatious. I think we have requested a ruling in that regard. I’m not sure if it was you in the Chair but I think that should not be allowed in this House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): That is why I made that ruling hon member. Thank you very much. Conclude hon Singh. Hon Mathys, I’m not going to allow you to speak. [Interjections.] No, hon Mathys, that is out of order. [Interjections.]


Mr A S SINGH: Thank you Madam House Chairperson. Although there is increased security and international co-operation ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, take your seat. Take your seat hon Mathys! Order hon Singh [Interjections.] Hon Mathys, the hon member Mokgosi was here and in her debate there was made mention of the ANC, and she was debating. Now the hon member Singh is debating. What you are raising now is not a point of order. Please take your seat so that we can continue. [Interjections.] Take your seat hon Mathys. Hon Mathys, take your seat! [Interjections.] Hon Mathys! [Interjections.} Hon Mathys take your seat!


An HON MEMBER: Sit down!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): That is not a point of order hon Mathys! {Interjections.] Hon Mathys that is not a point of order! [Interjections.] That is not a point of order! [Interjections.} Hon Mathys, I’m going to tell you for the last time; take your seat. [Interjections.] Take your seat hon Mathys! If you don’t want to listen to me ... [Interjections.] Hon Mathys, if you are not ready to listen to the Chair you had better go out now ... better take your ... yes, go out. Just go out. [Interjections.] Go out hon Mathys. [Interjections.] Hon Mathys, I asked you to leave the House because you are not ready to co-operate with the Chair. I will ask the Serjeant-at-arms to help me because we cannot continue like this. [Interjections.] Help me. Continue hon Singh. They are taking care of Mathys. [Interjections.] Continue hon Singh.


Mr A S SINGH: Chairperson, we have amateur politicians who have no experience of debating in this House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Serjeant-at-arms, please help us maintain order in this House.


Mr A S SINGH: The Kruger National Park is one of the biggest targets for rhino poaching. This year alone, almost 200 ... I’m repeating this ... 200 rhinos were killed between January and April, while for the same period nationally, 393 rhinos were killed. I think this is important information that members of the House should take cognisance of. The Kruger National Park has received ... [Interjections.]




Mr A S SINGH: Madam Chair, don’t I get extra time because of the interruption? [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): You were left with 33 seconds when she was ...


Mr A S SINGH: We support the budget. [Time expired.]


Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson ...


Mr J J LONDT: I rise on the point of order that you ordered the member to be removed. I want to know if you rescinded that order or it is still standing. It is unacceptable the way ...


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): The order stands hon member, I asked the member to leave the House.


Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, members of the public and guests in the gallery, ...




Mr C F B SMIT: ... ek voel regtig jammer vir die ... [   I feel very sorry for the ...]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C DIKGALE): Oh okay, hon Smit, the hon member has been raising his hand long time ago.


Mr E M MLAMBO: Hon House Chair, I rise on a point of order that the decorum of this House is going down. If you make a ruling and you don’t act on it and you want the speaker on the podium to continue, every hon member will do as he or she pleases. So, can we take a very serious stand on this Council because this is not going to work? Thank you.


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon member, I think I did make a ruling and all of you were here and listening. I even asked the Serjeant-at-Arms to help us take the hon member Mathys outside but she refused. Well, the matter will be referred to the Chair of the Council. Thank you.


Mnr C F B SMIT: Ek voel regtig jammer vir die Minister, aangesien sy aan die agterspeen moet suig as dit by finansies kom. Dit is seker maar omdat haar departement nie genoeg potensiaal het vir tenders vir buddies [vriende] nie. Jy sien, die ANC het net een ding op hulle brein vandag en dit is om hulle sakke vol geld te stop en om ten alle koste, aan mag vas te klou, sodat hulle hierdie vraatsig kan onderhou. Hulle gee net nie meer om nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Mr C F B SMIT: I feel really sorry for the Minister, because when it comes to finances, she is being neglected. It could no doubt be because her department lacks enough potential with regard to tenders for friends. You see, the ANC has only one thing in mind today, and that is to line their pockets with money and to cling to power at all cost, so that they would be able to support this glutton. They just don’t care anymore.]


Hon Chair, can the Minister please tell us where the department is while our precious water sources are polluted by the ANC corrupted municipalities. Our rivers and dams are adopting on a daily basis more and more the character of a sewerage farm than water sources. This is how our rivers look like, hon Minister.


Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon House Chair, I rise on a point of order that the speaker on the floor is making an allegation and a general statement that says ANC corrupt municipalities without making reference to any specific municipality. I think this is misleading to the public and therefore, the speaker should be ruled out of order and withdraw what he said.


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, this is point of debate. Continue hon Smit.


Mr C F B SMIT: I can only try to explain the stink that goes along with these rivers. We have been laying charges against both Mogalakwena and Mookgophong Local Municipalities in last year already for deliberately neglecting pollution of the Nyl River system, the Dorp River system, the Mogalakwena River system, the Rooisloot with sewerage.


The municipality of Mogalakwena cut holes at the top of sewerage pipes that flow over the Dorps River system so that it can overflow into the river when the system is overloaded. In Mookgophong, the municipality has dug ditches towards the Nylsvlei and here is a photo of it. A ditch has been dug to direct sewerage towards the river system. Ironically, towards its only main water source which is the borehole fields.


Where are the inspectors hon Minister, who must look into this? I didn’t see one inspector in one of those municipalities and I’ve been in those municipalities moving around for a long time. I want to urge the people of South Africa not to lose hope but to place their hope in a government that really cares, a government with a vision of real freedom, fairness and opportunity for all – vision 2029. Join the movement hash tag 2029.

Hon Minister, I want to ask and also pledge of you and the Deputy Minister, please, don’t do what you’ve done in the past year, not attending our committee meetings that we had to send your department back because none of the senior management was there to present the strategic plan and Budget to the committee. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon House Chair, I hope you will allow me to use the minutes. Hon Khawula has given me his four minutes.




Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, the director-general, distinguished guests, allow me to revert to one of the profound statement once made by the former President of South Africa, Tata Mandela, when he said and I quote:


We in South Africa have ourselves faced hard questions and had to make hard choices in this regard. We knew that political freedom alone is still not enough if you lack clean water. Freedom alone is not enough without light to read at night, without time or access to water to irrigate your farm, without the ability to catch fish to feed your family. For this reason the struggle for sustainable development nearly equals the struggle for political freedom. They can grow together or they can unravel each other. Threats to our governments in the century ahead will come from poverty, if anything.


Allow me to correct the distortion that is being made here. I have seen this tendency of us bringing pictures here. I tried to raise it. Some of us grew up in these villages, drinking water from these rivers. We used to drink water with the cow and donkeys in the past, during apartheid. It is not something that can make you come here and play with the pictures and people’s emotions.


The second issue is that there is no way that you will have a committee that will have a Minister and a Deputy Minister attending all committee meetings. As the leadership of the department, the director-general and the select committee will engage. Let us not create a wrong impression, as if there is something fundamentally wrong with that. [Interjections.]


The third issue is that you are creating a wrong impression, which I must correct. The fact is that you are not totally different from a person who will be driving followed by a car, indicating left but turning right. [Interjections.]


Yesterday, as the ANC, we said that we are not allowing our members to attend the International Labour Organisation, ILO. We received an invitation from a Minister of a particular department. As opposition, you said if the ANC want to engage with the budgets, it should allow the DA to go. But now you come here and create an impression that it is totally out for your own members. I can ask you now and you should try to be honest. Where is hon Chetty? Hon Faber is sitting here and he can attest. He was in the ILO, the only member of the DA in this House representing you and members of ANC were also there. So, don’t do that.


Secondly, let me assist you and quote what was said by ... [Interjections.]


We further note the commitment made by the department to continue with training 200 municipal officials on the development of Integrated Waste Management Plans using the portal and other aspects of sustainable waste management. Furthermore, as of December 2014, the following milestones have been achieved: Thirty one percent of the waste tyres have been diverted away from landfill, either by being recycled, used for energy recovery or re-used and 1 981 jobs have been created.


Perhaps some of us are naturally Thomases. In that case, let me bring this information closer to such. In 2014, our very own national botanic gardens received their highest ever number of visitors and own income generated since the establishment of the network mere than 100 years ago, exceeding 1,8 million. This is 27% higher than the previous financial year.


Through the Biodiversity Education and Empowerment programme, which is a school programme conducted by biodiversity education centres in botanical gardens, 52 486 beneficiaries were reached. This was 35% higher than the 2014-15 financial year record. It continues to baffle me how some members who claim to know it all have stood up today and acted as if they have only arrived today and do not know about these achievements.


I concur with those that note that the environment is where we live and development is what we all do in attempting to improve our lot within that abode. The two are inseparable. The challenge lies in the proper management of the resources. Sustainable development provides a framework for managing human and economic development while ensuring a proper and optimal functioning over time of the natural resources.


Hon Minister, we commend you and the department for adhering to your commitment to include local communities in decision-making forums of conservation management authorities to ensure they form part and parcel of guiding how conservation should be managed in our country. This you did by appointing them as members of conservation management authorities’ boards, hon Mtileni. This is in line with the transformation cause where many boards are dominated by people who have no vision of a reformed South Africa.


We are also delighted that further 10 park forums and four co-management committees have been established. As an honourable member, I will be failing in my duty as a member if I don’t talk to you on how we have to conduct ourselves. Sometimes when we are here ... The late President of Mozambique, Samora Machel, once said: “Personalities and fame pass, the revolution must remain.” [Interjections.]


When we get to this podium we have a temptation not to focus on what is in front of us. I want to assure all of you that we should learn to give credit where it is due, criticise constructively where we are supposed to and not shame the public and the people that are expecting a lot from us. As members of the ANC, we are not supporting because it is the Minister of ANC, but we are supporting because Minister, what you have presented is directly responding to this statement: “We have moved towards a more sustainable development path that will create new green jobs, which may help to offset employment losses experienced in other sectors; open up new investment opportunities and export markets; support the creation of the knowledge-based economy and allow South Africa to set standards and demonstrate thought leadership.


This is a direct quotation from the resolution taken during the 53rd National Conference of the ANC. What was presented here is responding to that.


My appeal to all of you is that we should visit the last part of Ghandi’s statement. He had something to say about humanity. I like the statement. Hon ANC members, Ghandi said: “You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.” I thank you. [Applause.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chair, I just want to tell this hon member ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Wait, wait. Hon Nyambi, take your seat. Take your seat. [Interjections.] Why are you on your feet?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chair, the gentleman is ...




Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Yes, hon Chetty had to pay parliament there in Gaborone. He had to pay on behalf of Parliament ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon members, you are making noise. I cannot even hear what she is saying. Please, allow her to ... [Interjections.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: He is making false accusations and he knows it. Parliament will have been embarrassed in Gaborone if hon Chetty did not pay R34 000 out of his pocket in Gaborone.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon member, please, take your seat. That is not a point of order.


Mr A J NYAMBI: An open quote from Ghandi states:


An error does not become truth by reason of multiple propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self-sustained.


Mr M KHAWULA: POINT OF ORDER: Chairperson I just want to do you a favour, I agree with you 100%...


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t want your favour


Mr M KHAWULA: We cannot call the police in here. Please stop writing notes to the Chair


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): [Laughter] No, they have the right to write notes to the chair, but anyhow, they got the respond


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order hon Mtileni...continue the hon Minister


The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Chair, I want to start by appreciating the debaters and thank our Chairperson for this elaborate lesson that he took us through about where we come from and where we are going. Secondly, I just want to say in overall, just generally that we need to remind each other that we were debating Environmental Affairs budget. We have what we call the blue scorpions and the green scorpions. The blue scorpions are with water affairs, they are doing work in water affairs and in rivers, in case hon Members didn’t know.


Hon Smit, just in relation to thus response whilst I am there, the green scorpions did go on site to help the blue scorpions, we do have a report to that effect but we are not actors in that line so the reallocation of tasks can only be done by the president unfortunately, I can’t respond to issues of water, that are about that... except to say we can help where is necessary.


The issues raised by hon Labuschagne, quite important indeed that we really create jobs in Expanded Public Works Programme (EPWP) as well as sustainable jobs, I am happy that there is at least one person for the first time in the party that I hear understanding that the EPWP is necessary, however we need to create sustainable jobs, that’s where we are going.


With regards to the by mass, with regards to the sustainable development jobs you’d realise that if you talk to people in trade and industry, in economic development, within the green economic sector, they have a road map, for instance just as one example amongst many. A road map towards fuel cells programme, a road map towards creation and manufacturing of cars and many other components that arise from the green economy or within the green sector. Other issues related to monitoring quality and so forth, the percentages that you gave are quite impressive, for us we move from zero and from zero to 78 in a space of time that we are at, I  think we need to appreciate that, there is a lot that has been done.


By the way remember that we found this country not having even any policy on environmental issues and including in the air quality space, so we are moving and siyaqhuba, we will be in 100%, that’s where we are going. The people of this country deserve better, no polluted air. The other issue if you can actually listen so that you can know where is water and where is environment.


The other issues related to those that are raised by hon member from the EFF, we know of a true story that says, we have today preserved land to the tune of eleven percent, the figure of 7% we don’t know where you get it from, this is official one eleven percent, and it’s actually meeting the target. We’ve met... [Interjections], but I am giving a true story.


The Integrated Resource Plan (IRP) hon member from DA, IRP renewables, there is no country that is bold as we are on the renewables; we said it in the IRP that we require forty two percent of our energy must come from renewables. We have all the sectors included; we are now even here in the Western Cape, we have introduced by the way, the new transport that’s green, it comes from the policy of this government that we must have this green transport that is here. We are looking at transport, we are looking at energy, we are looking at water, all those eight plus development that I spoke about.


We appreciate the support that we have about the rhino, fight against rhino, indeed we will mount the campaign with all of you, it is a very, very difficult thing, it involves the syndicates of this world and we will have to fight hard. We also will be working with our communities and continue to do so as deputy minister has alluded to the programmes that are included, and thank you deputy minister for giving that very elaborate work that we are doing.


Indeed we want to say that in relation to the pollution of rivers, if I may just quickly come back to that particular matter, that there are certain programmes in the department that we help the Department of Water Affairs to deal with. That relates to working on wet lands, working for water, working on pollution for the massive increase of the run off of diluted river water pollution dealing with water pollution, we are dealing with those issues as well, from the EPWP programme and part of our environmental programme, including greening our spaces, including from the point of ensuring that we have environmental impact assessment, before any development can happen.


Hon members I think at this point in time I wouldn’t have adequate time to respond to all the issues but we are ready to engage on an on-going basis so that together with hon members of this august house we can move this ship forward. Our environment is a department that’s functional for purpose of record to the hon member of EFF even if you say that it is not performing, it is one of the best performing departments as far as we know, she knows that, best performing department and indeed there is nobody who has ever been fired.


Three people in Sun Park left, one’s contract that has expired, one was placed on suspension because of irregularities and one went for greener pastures. So this record that you are talking about of people who have left exodus, we don’t know what you are talking about, maybe it’s another exodus of another Sun Park somewhere, because it seems like there is another department that you are reading stuff from, but thank you very much all for your support. Thank you.




(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)


Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, the objectives of the Bill are to propose amendments to the principal Act to enhance the institutional and other governance arrangements and functioning of the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and fully align the principal Act with the Constitution and the Public Finance Management Act.


The mentioned objectives are sought to be achieved by: shifting the chief executive and accounting officers’ functions of the chairperson to a newly created administrative position of the chief executive officer, who must fulfil the function of the accounting officer and the secretary to the commission. This shift will remove the anomaly that the chairperson of the FFC is also the chief executive and accounting officer, while the commission should exercise oversight with respect to the chief executive officer and accounting officer.


The objectives are further sought to be achieved by: providing that the commission is responsible for its strategic management and directive; stipulating that vacancies in the commission must be filled within a period of six months after the vacancy arises; providing that a member of the commission, who may serve a term of up to five years at a time, may not hold office for more than 10 consecutive years; regulating the conduct of members of the commission; giving effect to section 219(5) of the Constitution by introducing procedures for the determination of the remuneration and other conditions of service of members of the commission; affecting changes to provisions dealing with the functions of the commission to ensure that the terminology used and considerations of the commission’s recommendations are aligned to the Constitution and other legislation; enabling the commission to obtain information from any person; replacing ministerial power to make regulations with a rule-making power for the commission to accord with its direct reporting to Parliament and provincial legislatures. Rules may be made regarding requests by organs of state for the commission to make recommendations, its governance, the distinct role of, and relationship between the chairperson and the chief executive officer, the conduct of employees, the summoning of witnesses to testify or produce any object, and related matters necessary for the proper functioning of the commission.


Lastly, the objectives are also to be achieved by aligning the annual reporting provisions of the Act to that of the Public Finance Management Act.


The Free State, Eastern Cape and Limpopo provinces were not able to submit final mandates. KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng, the Northern Cape, Mpumalanga, North West and the Western Cape submitted their final mandates.


I table this report on the Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill, to be considered by the House. I thank you. [Applause.]


There was no debate.


Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni? [Interjections.] Oh! Hon Mtileni, my apologies. Please take your seat, Papa. I want to address you. [Interjections.] Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you very much. [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, please take your seat so that you can listen. Yes. Thank you very much.


I said I shall allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. You are not representing our province. [Interjections.] I am the one who is supposed to. So, I want to check with the hon member. Yes? Yes, you can make your declaration. Yes, go to the podium. You have a maximum of three minutes.


Declarations of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on the consideration of the Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill, the Western Cape would like to record the following declaration.


The proposed amendments to provide for a new position under the chief executive office and shift the functions of the CEO and accounting officer to this newly created position without defining the CEO and accounting officer roles will further reduce the responsibility of these ill-defined positions. Clarity has to be given by the commission on the role of this new position. The responsibility of the accounting officer, CEO and chairperson of the FFC, thus recommending that someone be appointed under the CEO office before the role is adequately defined is premature, by the standing committee of Parliament.


For the Financial and Fiscal Commission to function under its constitutional mandate and to make recommendations to national and provincial legislatures and other authorities determined by national legislation, it must be clear on its roles and responsibilities to function effectively. Currently, the Budget Office has taken over much of the role established for the FFC. As recommended, instead of expanding an office without understanding roles and functions of those within it, the FFC amendments need to be clearer to ensure it serves its purpose of advising Parliament and the legislatures. Therefore, the DA-led Western Cape does not support the proposed amendments.


Ms T MOTARA: House Chair, firstly, the proposals presented by all provinces indicated that all provinces support and respect the principles of good governance. In supporting principles of good governance, one cannot have the chairperson and the accounting officer being one and the same person. This Act seeks to separate the two, so that we have clearly defined roles of the accounting officer and the chairperson.


Secondly, the FFC makes recommendations to Treasury and not to Parliament. The Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, makes recommendations to Parliament. So, they have clearly defined roles and where ... yes, we, as Parliament, do interact with the FFC, but their role and responsibility is really to make recommendations to Treasury. Treasury then considers them and we also use those recommendations in our own work. The PBO has a direct responsibility to make recommendations to the legislative sector of society. As such, Gauteng does support good governance principles and this Act does clearly seek to achieve that. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Heads of delegations will vote by pressing the in favour, against or abstain buttons. We will start with the Eastern Cape.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: The Eastern Cape did not submit a final mandate. [Interjections.]




“This mandate is to the Chairperson: National Council of Provinces. Name: Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill, 2015 [B 1B – 2015]. Date of Deliberation: 11 June 2015” – which is today. “Vote of the Legislature: The Province supports the Bill and mandates the Eastern Cape delegates to the NCOP to vote in favour of the Bill.”


Here is the mandate. [Interjections.] Oh. Perhaps it is because you are not the Whip. So, there is no problem. The Eastern Cape votes in favour. Can we then continue to the Free State?


Ms M F TLAKE: The Free State agrees to the content, but, at this point in time, the Free State has not received the mandate to vote. So, the Free State abstains.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Can I give you this mandate, hon Whip? [Interjections.] This is the mandate from your province. I don’t know what happened, because ours were submitted to us, as the leaders of the delegation. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!


Ms M F TLAKE: Yes.




Ms M F TLAKE: Yes, Chair. I can see that it is from the province, but as far as it is concerned, it says that the Free State legislature abstains from voting on the Bill, and that’s exactly what I said.




Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, are the mandates provided by Limpopo province and the Eastern Cape final mandates or voting mandates? I need clarity on this, because the final mandates were supposed to be in by a certain time, when there was a deadline for when we were voting on the Bills in the committee.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. We will give you the mandate from your province.

The mandate we received from Limpopo is the final mandate, which allows us to vote for the Bill. [Interjections.] We received a final mandate from Limpopo. Alright? Hon members, please let’s have order in this House. Hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni, let us have order in this House, please. [Interjections.] Hon member Smit, why are you on your feet? [Interjections.]


Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair ... [Interjections.] Hon ... [Interjections.] ... Hon ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Why ... [Interjections.] ... why ...? Don’t listen to the hon ...


Mr C F B SMIT: Protect me, please.




Mr C F B SMIT: Can you protect me, please?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Don’t listen to the hon Mtileni, hon Smit! I allowed you to say something.


Mr C F B SMIT: I expect you from you to protect me. [Interjections.] Hon House Chairperson, as a delegate from Limpopo, I would also like to see the mandate from our province to ensure it’s in line ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, alright. Alright, you’ll see the mandate. I have recognised the hon Motara, and after that, the hon De Beer. Order, hon members!


Ms T MOTARA: Thank you, Chairperson. The chairperson of the select committee indicated those provinces which could not send in their final mandates to the committee. However, in accordance with Rule 72(1), it is where we vote on a mandate determined by the legislature in the House. So, the process outlined by the hon De Beer, chairperson of the select committee, indicated those provinces, but Rule 72(1) is very clear on the voting procedure on the mandate. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. Thank you very much. However, for the sake of showing the member, he did ask to see this. We did receive the mandate from our province, so, thank you very much, hon Motara.


Hon members, can we continue? Can we continue? [Interjections.] I’m not going to recognise you. Why are you on your feet? No, hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni, oh no! We want order in this House. [Interjections.] No. You are not in order. [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, hon Mtileni, hon Mtileni, hon Mtileni! I did not recognise you. The person I recognise is the hon Essack. Why are you on your feet, hon Essack?


Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, thank you for recognising me, at last.




Mr F ESSACK: I just wanted to point out that the hon Kgoshi presented the vote on behalf of the Limpopo province. However, he doesn’t actually understand what FFC actually means.




Mr F ESSACK: So, can the House please explain to him what FFC stands for?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me, then, give you the results, hon members. The only province that did not vote in favour was the Eastern Cape, and the other one ... [Interjections.] ... sorry, the Western Cape, by the hon Whip Labuschagne, who is the leader of the delegation. For the Free State, we have heard that they abstained. So, now, we have received seven votes in favour. Hon member Louis?


Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chair, I hear you are doing what we are supposed to do. Because the House was already out of order, we needed to hear the announcements. I am glad you are moving to that point,now.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. Thank you very much, hon member. [Interjections.] There is no way that, when hon members rise on a point of order, we cannot allow them. However, if they are not rising on a point of order, we’ll just tell them to take their seats, and that’s what we did. We are now continuing.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.


ABSTAIN: Free State.


AGAINST: Western Cape.


Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members, there is a ruling by the House Chairperson, if the hon members would listen.


I would like to make a ruling on a point of order raised by the hon member Mtileni during the policy debate on Budget Vote No 2 – Parliament. The hon member rose on a point of order on whether it was parliamentary for the hon Parkies to refer to the EFF members as “anarchists”. I requested that the Table look at the Hansard and advise accordingly.


Unparliamentary language means different things in different jurisdictions - hon members, are you giving me a hearing? – and to different members. In some jurisdictions, the list runs to several pages but it would not be helpful for us to adopt such an approach here. I know that it sometimes strikes members as odd that some words and phrases are deemed unparliamentary, while others are permitted as being part of the cut and thrust of debate. The context in which particular words are used can affect their meaning, making them more or less acceptable to those to whom they refer. Order, hon members, at the back! Hon Faber, order!


I have acknowledged that, at times, members will wish to express their views forcefully, and engage in robust debate. That is acceptable. However, it is not acceptable where the tone or nature of remarks becomes so ill-tempered and bad-mannered that they are closer to discourtesy and disorder than to debate. Hence, if hon members remember well, the hon member Parkies, at one point, did withdraw the word.


However, hon members, rather than making judgments on the basis of particular words or phrases that have been ruled unparliamentary here or elsewhere, I will judge remarks on the context in which the language was used and the nature of the member’s remarks. The guiding principles as to whether words used in a debate are out of order are the motive attributed to the member accused of using the words, and whether something dishonourable is being attributed to another member.


Words or phrases used in a debate but which do not impugn the honour of a member will not be ruled out of order. However, according to the established conventions and precedents, reflections or allegations against a political party are, generally, not out of order, as long as they do not cast aspersions on the integrity of a member of the Council.


The hon Parkies used the word “anarchist” in the context of a political philosophy, and those expressions cannot be unparliamentary, as they did not reflect on the integrity of another member of the Council. Therefore, my ruling is that the point of order raised by the hon Mtileni cannot be held.


I was supposed to make another ruling on a point of order raised by the hon member Mathys, but because she is not with us anymore, I will make the ruling next time. [Interjections.]


The Council adjourned at 20:54.







National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.       Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent


  1. Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 17 June 2015:


  1. Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill [B 1B – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 76)


National Council of Provinces


The Chairperson

1.       Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council


  1. Bills passed by National Assembly and transmitted for concurrence on 17 June 2015:


  1. Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Related Matters) Amendment Act Amendment Bill [B 18B – 2014 (Reprint)] (National Assembly – sec 75).


                      The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice of the National Council of Provinces.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


1.       The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services


  1. Report of the National Director of Public Prosecutions (NDPP) on the Operations of the Prosecuting Authority for 2014‑15, tabled in terms of section 35(2)(a) read with section 22(4)(g) of the National Prosecuting Authority Act, 1998 (No 32 of 1998).




National Council of Provinces


Please see pages 2323-2348 of the ATCs.



No related


No related documents