Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 01 Sep 2015

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

TUESDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 2015

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:06.

The House Chairperson: Committee, Co-operative Governance and Intergovernmental Relations took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

NOTICES OF MOTION

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi): I think it will be in order to remind hon members that we are doing the motions and it’s for a minute and a half. It is not three or four minutes so that I must not stop people. It’s not nice [Inaudible.] Hon Mtileni.

Nkul V E MTILENI: Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi kombela ku nyikiwa nkarhi wo vulavula loko mi nga si nyika nkarhi eka un’wana na un’wana loyi a lavaka ku vulavula eka nkarhi wa sweswi. Ndzi lava ku sola maendlelo ya Xandla xa Mutshamaxitulu eka vhiki leri nga hundza loko hi ri laha Ndlwini. Ndzi vona onge hi hundzula Yindlu leyi ku va xiphaza. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)

[Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I am requesting to be afforded the opportunity to speak before you allow everybody to do so at this point in time. I want to condemn the Deputy Chairperson’s procedure in the House last week. I think we are converting this House into a spaza shop.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Mtileni, let me ...

Mr V E MTILENI: It’s a point of privilege, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi): Yes, I understand Xitsonga very well.

Mr V E MTILENI: Before you acknowledge any person ...

... ndzi lava ku hundzisa hungu leri. [... I want to send this message across.]

On a point of privilege, we seem to be turning this House into a spaza shop where any person does as he pleases. Last week ...

... loko hi ri laha, xirho xa EFF xi komberile ku tekeriwa enhlokweni leswaku xi ta kota ku vula swin’wana. Leswi a swi n’wi hundzanga kahle Mutshamaxitulu wa siku, Tatana Tau. Ndzi kombela leswaku leswi nga humelela eka vhiki leri nga hundza hi swi xiyisisa tanihi Yindlu. Leswi swi humelerile Ximokonkulu xa NCOP xi ri kona exikarhi ka hina. Mi vitane “bouncers” [varindzi va le nyangweni] leswaku va ta kokakoka munhu va n’wi humesa laha Ndlwini.

Leswi ndzi tsakelaka ku kombisa swona hi leswaku loko ndzi kala ndzi vula leswaku hi hundzula Yindlu leyi hi yi tirhisa onge i xiphaza hi leswaku laha ka NCOP a hi se pasisa Nawu lowu vulaka leswaku loko hi vona leswaku ha hlulana hi marito, un’wana wa hina u fanele ku ta a ta ... [A swi twali.] ... hikuva lava va vandla ro karhi va le ka nhlayonyingi, kasi lavan’wana va le ka nhlayotsongo. A hi si pasisa Nawu wa leswaku hi vitana “bouncers” [varindzi va le nyangweni]. A swi fani na le ka Yindlu ya Huvo ya Rixaka laha Nawu lowu va wu endleke hambiloko wu nga se fikelela eka xiyimo xo tirhisiwa.

Ndzi hlamarile loko ndzi vona Ximokonkulu xa NCOP va seketela Xandla xa Mutshamaxitulu leswaku ku vitaniwa “bouncers” [varindzi va le nyangweni]. A ndzi tivi loko Nawu lowu wu ta va wu pasisiwile hi n’wina va vandla leri rhangelaka, naswona swi endlise ku yini. Leswi swi nga humelela vhiki leri nga hundza, Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi vona ku ri mhaka leyi khomisaka tingana swinene eka Yindlu leyi. A ndzi tshembi leswaku ndzhuti wa Yindlu leyi wu nga ya ehansi ku fikela eka xiyimo xa leswaku munhu loko a lava ku vulavula a nga pfumeleriwi hi ku va ku vuriwa leswaku a nga fanelanga leswaku a vulavula kutani ku ya vitaniwa “bouncers” [varindzi va le nyangweni]. Hinkwerhu, tanihi Yindlu, a hi twanananga leswaku “bouncers” [varindzi va le nyangweni] va nghena laha Ndlwini hikuva a hi si pasisa Nawu wolowo. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[... When we were in the House, an Eff member requested to be recognised so that he might say something. This did not go down well with Mr Tau, the Chairperson of the day. I am requesting that as the House, we look closely at what has transpired last week. This transpired in the presence of the Chief Whip of the NCOP in our midst. You called the “bouncers” [protection services staff] so that they may forcefully remove us from this House.

What I would like to point out is that what makes me to say that we have turned the House into a spaza shop is that we have not yet passed a Rule in the NCOP which says should we have different opinions, one of us should ... [Inaudible.] ... because a particular party is in the majority, whereas the others are in the minority. We have not yet passed a Rule that we will call “bouncers” [protection services staff]. It differs from the National Assembly wherein they have passed a Rule even though it is not yet implemented.

I was surprised when I saw the Chief Whip of the NCOP supporting the Deputy Chairperson that “bouncers” [protection services staff] should be called. I do not know if this Rule was passed by you the ruling party, and how it came about. Chairperson, what transpired last week is a shame to this House. I do not believe that the dignity of the House will be lost such that when someone wants to speak, he is not allowed to do so, and “bouncers” [protection services staff] will be called. We as the House have not agreed that “bouncers” [protection services staff] should enter this House because we have not passed such a Rule.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni, you have made the point.

Nkul V E MTILENI: Ndzi kombela leswaku mi pfumelelana na mina leswaku hi le ku hundzuleni ka Yindlu leyi hi yi endla onge i xiphaza laha un’wana na un’wana a endlaka hi ku rhandza. Loko a hi landzelela Nawu, a hi nga ta pfumelela “bouncers” [varindzi va le nyangweni] va nghena eka NCOP hikuva a hi si pasisa Nawu wa leswaku loko hi hlulana hi marito hi fanele ku va vitana va ta hlongola munhu.

Hikokwalaho, swa hi chavisa tanihi mavandla yo kaneta leswaku a ha ha fanelanga ku vula swo karhi hikuva loko hi vulavula swi kombisa leswaku hi ta vitaneriwa vanhu lavaya va ta hi kokakoka va hi humesela ehandle. Hikokwalaho, ndzi vona swi nga tshamisekanga, Mutshamaxitulu. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V E MTILENI: I am pleading that you agree with me that we are turning this House into a spaza shop wherein everybody does as he pleases. If we were following the Rule, we would not allow the “bouncers” [protection services staff] to enter the NCOP because we have not yet passed a Rule that should we differ in opinions, we should call them to eject someone.

Therefore, it scares us as the opposition parties that we are no longer supposed to say something because by doing so, it shows that those individuals will be called to eject us. Therefore, I think it is not proper, Chairperson.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon, take your seat. Thank you, hon Mtileni. You’ve made your point but I’ll refer the matter to the manner in which it was handled to be attended to in terms of Rule 36 to 37. However, I don’t want us to subject to a discussion. I’ve allowed you and then you’ve raised it. Let’s get to the motions. Hon Mathys.

Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, just on clarity Mr, you said that you are referring the matter to ... I don’t know to whom and you mentioned that it is based on Rule 36 and 37. I’m just trying to clarify that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me clarify the rule. I will simplify it. In terms ... [Interjections.] Okay, thank you. He used the point of privilege to raise what happened last week and in my ruling I’m saying that in terms of the Rule of the National Council of Provinces, if ever there is a matter that has been handled in a particular way and hon members in the House are not satisfied or they have the view that it was not handled properly, there’s a procedure to raise that matter so that it can be subject of a debate or a discussion in the sitting of the National Council of Provinces. So, that is why I’m saying that, hon Mtileni, the matter that you are raising, it is not a matter that you can allow just to pass. Let’s follow the rules and make it a subject of a discussion in this National Council of Provinces so that we are able to get to the bottom of it or do justice to the matter instead of the manner in which [Inaudible.] Hon Labuschagne, you are going to be the first one.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council debates the coastal economy with special references to the management of small harbours in the Western Cape province.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the motion? Does any member wish to give a notice of a motion?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: That is a notice of a motion, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I’m sorry, hon Labuschagne. I’m still dealing with hon Mtileni. Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council -

notes the deteriorating state of Health Department in Lady Grey Hospital in the Eastern Cape puts patients’ lives in jeopardy as a result of dilapidated ceiling with leaks;

further notes that when it rains wards flood and patients have to be moved to the neighbouring wards;

also notes that the Minister of Health in the Eastern Cape has ignored this plea several times;

also notes that this poses safety and security risks to the maternity ward in the hospital which is a problem dating back to 2006; and

also notes that there have been claims of negligence by doctors work ethics costing not only millions of rands paid for by the taxpayer, but amount to poor South Africans citizens’ lives lost; and

finally notes that this amounts to the incompetence of the national Health Department and the inefficiency and negligence of the doctors who do not value people’s lives. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council -

debates the state of financial mismanagement and corruption within Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, state-owned entity;

notes the recent report by the Public Protector found 19 counts of alleged financial mismanagement, tender irregularities, appointment irregularities;

further notes that these include: Improper awarding; extensions and appointment of tender contracts to companies and connected individuals by the group chief of executive officer, GCEO, and the Prasa board of over R350 million; a loss of R1,3 billion due to the failure by Prasa to execute a foreign currency hedge; the questionable R3,5 billion tender award to Spanish company, Vossloh Espana; and 2010-11 financial year, Prasa accumulated losses of R4 billion and accumulated a loss of R1 billion for the 2014-15 financial year; and

finally notes that government corruption must be taken serious and a taxpayer needs answers on how state-owned entities, SOEs, spend their money.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council debates the potential of rail infrastructure as a stimulus for rural and agricultural development.

Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

That the House debates the National Treasury and SA Revenue Service, Sars, approach towards tax avoidance, which serves to protect multinational corporation profits; and billing forward of the dictates of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, practices that makes it easy for multinational corporations to avoid taxes. Thank you.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the state of the National prosecuting Authority under the Zuma administration, with special reference to the enquiry into charges of fraud and perjury against Nomgcobo Jiba, the Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, as well as her lack of fitness to hold office, a report which the DA requested from the President, and the suspicious circumstances under which the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, announced the withdrawal of charges against Jiba.

Ms L MATHYS: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of EFF:

That the House debates the importance of building state in government capacity, which will lead to the abolishment of tenders, considering more than R500 billion, which is almost half of the annual budget is spent through inefficient and poorly administrated tender system, and it is the poor who suffers the most.

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the role of the private sector in boosting our economy, and that government interference in the private sector must be limited to its role of creating an enabling environment which businesses can thrive and grow the economy, and by so doing create the much needed jobs for our people.

Ms B S MASANGO: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the continuing spate of rapes and gang rapes at schools of children, even as young as eight years of age, and that these reported incidents throughout the country, with the possibility that some are unreported are an indication of a scourge that is visited on young unsuspecting children; and I hereby requested that in its next sitting, the Council holds a debate on the negative impact of these incidents, the possible causes and plans by all relevant structures and stakeholders to stem this disturbing tide.

Mr M CHETTY: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA

That the House debates the recent loss of lives through roads accidents that are reported to have claimed over 141 lives in over 110 accidents in one weekend alone; the incidents being an indication that law enforcement alone is not achieving the results envisaged, that the condition of both public transport, roads and cooperation from motorist and pedestrians with the traffic rules are of utmost importance to save lives; and I hereby request that at its next sitting the Council holds a debate on the negative impact of these accidents, the possible causes and plans by all relevant structures and stakeholders to stem this life threatening tide.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Does any member wish to move motion without notice?

141 PEOPLE DIED OVER THE PAST WEEKEND IN 110 ACCIDENTS ACROSS SOUTH AFRICA

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that a total of 141 people died over the past weekend in 110 accidents across South Africa;

also notes that the highest number was recorded in the Eastern Cape, where 45 people were killed, in two crashes, one in Willowvale with 35 fatalities and another one in Cradock with 10 fatalities accounted for the majority of the deaths;

further notes that Mr Ntaba Mbane, a 74-year-old pensioner, lost four children in Willowvale accident; therefore

sends its heartfelt condolences to the families of the deceased and wishes the injured a speedy recovery.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

SOUTH AFRICA’S CAR EXPORTS TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

(Draft Resolution)

Mr E MAKUE: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes the South Africa’s car exports to the United States of America has increased from $289 million in 2001 to $1, billion last year, making the country an African Growth and Opportunity Act success story;

also notes that the Minister of Trade and Industry is in Gabon, attending the 14th African Growth and Opportunity’s Forum, where Sub-Saharan African countries will thrash out how best to derive sustainable benefits from the African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa, programme; therefore

congratulates the Cabinet on their foresight in ensuring that South Africa participates in Agoa and is able to benefit from the economic spin-offs.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

MURDER OF THE ELDERLY, MR ROBERT RHADEBE

(Draft Resolution)

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes the murder of the elderly Mr Robert Rhadebe during a farm attack in Harrismith this past weekend;

further notes that his wife, Martha, was also brutally attacked, luckily survived;
further notes that of the 16 farm murders that have occurred in the Free State province this year, 10 of those victims were farmworkers

calls upon the Minister of Police to ensure that attacks on farms are reported on in the SA Police Service, SAPS, annually report, and that this crimes be categorised as a priority in the fight against crime;

further calls upon the Minister of Police to seriously consider the establishment of a specialised rural safety unit within the SAPS;

conveys its sincerest condolences to the Rhadebe family from Harrismith for their loss.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

EFF STUDENT COMMAND CONTESTED SRC ELECTION

(Draft Resolution)

Ms L MATHYS: Chair, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that the EFF Student Command contested Student Representative Council, SRC, elections for the first time since its establishment on June 16 2015;

notes that on 27 August, the Student Command of the EFF contested elections in five Tshwane University of Technology, which is TUT campuses across three provinces;

notes that the EFF Student Command, which is barely three months old, received nearly as many votes as the 21-year-old SA Students Congress, Sasco, in all campuses, except TUT Mbombela where there was gross election maladministration;

further notes that all opposition student structures have filed for a rerun of elections in TUT Mbombela and it would be irresponsible for the institution to overlook this request;

condemns the physical attack of the EFF Students Command leaders, the intimidation of the Student Command members and the vandalisation of their property and the dirty, thuggish election tactics used by Sasco, as instructed by their Minister of Education, hon Nzimande during and after election;

condemns TUT’s management protection of Sasco’s hooligans and its victimisation and persecution of the EFF Student Command leaders through unfair suspensions in an attempt to ensure they do not qualify in the SRC elections;

further condones the ruling party’s interference in student politics and their disregard with the law, which has since tricked down with student bodies;

further declares that the EFF Student Command will have Presidents in all strategic portfolios in all TUT campuses.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

KZN TO BE HOSTING A TRADITIONAL REED DANCE

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M KHAWULA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

notes that this coming weekend from 5 to 6 September 2015, the King of the Zulu nation, uBhejane Odlabakayise, will be hosting a traditional reed dance ceremony at the Royal Palace, Enyokeni;

further notes that this is a respectable occasion, where young maidens reflect the pride, honour and dignity of being African young maidens in front of the king and the nation;

wishes the King of the Zulu nation everything of the best on this occasion;

realises that three years ago, young maidens with their leaders from Umzumbe in KwaHlongwa, KwaNdelu, KwaMathimbini had a tragic bus accident at Ndundulu, which took 14 lives;

urges the transport authorities to ensure safety of roads in KZN and the country to ensure that this ceremony goes along without incidents;

acknowledges that last weekend the young maidens that were at the reed dance ceremony that was held in Swaziland were involved in a road accident, where some of them died; and

expresses our heartfelt condolences to families of the departed maidens in Swaziland, and wishes a speedy recovery to those who were injured.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

THE USE OF STATE RESOURCES BY THE ANC

(Draft Resolution)

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

notes that the changing of the Local Government Week Programme without consulting the opposition parties at the last moment is very concerning;

further notes the squeesing in of the ANC’s brag feast on the SA Broadcasting Cooperation, SABC’s Morning Live is a waste of taxpayers money and signs of a compromised public broadcaster; and

acknowledges that the state resources are used to rally support for the 2016 local government elections to breathe life into a dying horse.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Are there any objections to the motion? Yes. In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

CONTESTING FOR SRC ELECTIONS AT THE UNIVERSITIES

(Draft Resolution)

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

notes with concern that the violence erupted between student groups during the Student Representative Council, SRC, election campaign at the Tshwane University of Technology on 26 August 2015;

further notes that this event follows similar incidents which took place the previous week at Wits University;

calls on those who wish to campaign and contest SRC elections to do so with the best democratic principles and practices in mind and not to undermine any individual or group from fairly participating in the SRC election process; and

wishes to condemn in the strongest terms the incidents which took place and call on the university authorities to act against those responsible.

THE PASSING OF THE MEC OF EDUCATION IN THE NORTHERN CAPE

(Draft Resolution)

Mr D STOCK: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

notes the passing of the MEC of Education in the Northern Cape, who passed on after a short illness;

conveys its deepest and heartfelt condolences to her family, friends and the mass democratic movement;

further notes that hon Cjiekella-Lecholo was a strong women, a great leader and was very passionate about the community she served; and

salutes her, wish her soul rest in peace.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

WAYDE VAN NIEKERK WINS THE GOLD MEDAL IN THE 400 METRES RACE

(Draft Resolution)

Ms G M MANOPOLE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

notes and congratulates Wayde Van Niekerk on winning the gold medal in the 400 metres race at the World Athletics Championships in Beijing on Wednesday, 26 August 2015;

recognises that in a 43,38 seconds time the Cape Town-born Van Niekerk won a nail-biting final to become the fourth fastest man in the history of the 400 metres race;

acknowledges that he held the South African flag high and did the nation proud; and

congratulates him and wishes him all of the best in his future career.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: House chairperson, my hand was raised and you nodded to my side, therefore I was under the impression that noted me. May I please have the opportunity ...

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, let me assist. Take your seat! It was the following members, you, Sefako, Prins, Ximbi, Mtileni and Chetty that have raised their hands and there was only 20 minutes that was meant for the motions. Therefore, I’ve tried my best to accommodate as many as I could possibly do. I made a mistake by allowing others to repeat; I should have avoided those. You were supposed to have a first bite in this round.

DEBATE ON KILLING OF POLICE OFFICERS IN SOUTH AFRICA: WAGING A CONCERTED FIGHT AGAINST THE KILLING OF POLICE OFFICERS IN OUR COUNTRY.

(Subject for Discussion)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chairperson of the NCOP, Members of Parliament, MECs present here, civil society, all guests, ladies and gentlemen, on 6 September 2015, we will be honouring our fallen heroes and heroines in blue. This is just not another commemoration event in our calendar year, but it is a very solemn show of active solidarity by our President and government to all the families of these heroes and to the nation at large.

It is then not a mistake that this national commemoration is held at the highest government office in the land, the Union Buildings in Pretoria. The President, His Excellency Jacob Zuma, some premiers, Ministers, MECs, community police forums, Members of Parliament and other stakeholders in the community across the country, have all joined the SA Police Service, SAPS, leadership and management in showing their sadness, their outrage, and indeed their grave concern on the recent attacks and murders of our police officers.

We truly thank our President for sharply raising the issue of the killing of police officers as a serious national concern. I am saying this because there is a deafening silence when a police officer is killed, but when a police officer kills a civilian by accident, there is drowning noise, accompanied by a host of unfounded criticism and sinister recommendations against government and police management.

It can’t be right. It can’t be correct that within seven months, we have lost 58 police officers, counting from January 2015 up to date. These are human beings that we are talking about who have a unique mandate to protect us; to protect you; to protect me and to protect a country as a whole.

We also acknowledge the Premier of Gauteng who led a night vigil session on 7 August this year against police killings in partnership with Crime Line and Gauteng Community Police Board. This is indeed a strong show of political will, commitment and message that says that there must be no disparity in response when a person kills a cop and when a cop kills an unarmed civilian.

Violence towards people and police alike is not acceptable. The SA Police Service top management has also swiftly identified several strategies to implement to ensure that both people and police are safe.

For instance, the SAPS management has adopted and is now implementing the national police safety strategy which is based on four pillars. There is now a standardised regulatory environment to ensure that police safety is a priority; there are both proactive and reactive interventions to reduce the attacks and swiftly arrest the police killers; noncompliance of the existing SAPS Employee Health and Wellness Support Programmes for members and their families is being addressed and there are measures in place to monitor and evaluate the impact of this national police safety plan and to determine whether the strategy is effective or not in reducing unnatural deaths of our police officers.

Through this national strategy, the modus operandi of perpetrators, threats and trends will be determined. There will be refresher courses to be given to ensure operational readiness for police officers. In addition, appropriate security measures will be put in place at all police stations in order to effectively control and secure the environment in which the police officers work - thus limiting the risk of injury or death to our police officers, as well as to members of the public.

The established multi-disciplinary Police Safety Committee meetings will be frequently held to ensure an integrated implemented plan towards police safety, which include all the members of the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure - just to name a few, the police themselves, the National Prosecution Authority, NPA, metro police and other stakeholders.

There will also be a national risk register that will be developed to register all attacks and murders of police officers both on and off duty. It will ensure that within 12 hours of the incident, the information is captured on the information management framework and for the immediate docket analysis by the detective services - that is the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI - which are known as the Hawks.

The SA Police Service Employee Health and Wellness Programme will ensure that police officers get debriefed regularly. The Trial Unit and Compliance Board is established to ensure operational compliance on all these plans. The above-mentioned strategies and plans are all excellent efforts to ensure police and people safety alike.

Notwithstanding, the Ministry of Police will be the first to indicate that all these will remain excellent wish-lists, if the SAPS structural system in which these must be executed is not improved with immediate effect. When we talk about safety gear and equipment of police officers - and their availability or sustainability, we cannot confine ourselves only to issues of pocket safety guides, bulletproof vests, firearms and their safekeeping, pepper sprays, safes and resourced buildings.

It is also equally not necessary to always confine police failures to statistics. Statistics are not there to measure performance; but to plan for operations. For instance - just to compare, in the 2013-14 and 2014-15 financial years; we will see that there was a 14,1% decrease in unnatural deaths of our police officers.

This means it is not about how many police officers have been killed; but it has all to do with the massive impact that a killing of a police officer has on our nation’s safety and the individual police officer’s immediate families.

It goes on to say then, that we must also include the necessary needs of individual police officers such as the entry life as a student police officer at the academy, a living wage as a full-time police officer, a safe residence, a reliable transport to work and indeed, the physical and mental fitness of a police officer.

The above-mentioned have been mandated to the Deputy Minister of Police to ensure that the national Employee Health and Wellness Management Strategic Framework is properly mainstreamed, customised and applied to the SA Police Service for a holistic SAPS Employee Health and Wellness Programme.

Therefore, matters of living conditions, family situations, career stagnation and lack of promotion of a police officer will be comprehensively addressed. A police officer with a healthy morale will perform his or her duties well.

Modulasetulo, re tshwanetse ho kgema le dinako. [Chairperson, we should keep up with the times.]

We can’t expect police to be productive and happy ...

... xa bengenazo iindawo eziphucukileyo zokuhlala ezibafaneleyo. Kungoko sisithi kweli xesha sikulo ... [... when they do not have decent places suitable for them to stay. That is why we say nowadays...]

...we should look into the kind of work they are doing versus the salaries that they are getting. The quality of work life management must be the centre of all SAPS strategies, plans and programmes that seek to enhance both police and people safety.

If police officers are tasked to ensure that all our citizens are safe in their homes, workplaces, places of worship and entertainment; then the police leadership must ensure that, in turn, the police officers and their immediate families are also well looked after.

This means a police officer’s wellness and readiness should begin even before a police officer reports to a parade. Parades are used for inspecting members when they are reporting for duty to ensure operational readiness. But this exercise must not just be a mere compulsory routine for compliance. Our police officers are the most important resource of the SA Police Service, and all employee support programmes must be inclusive of all factors that either contribute or hinder the inclusive welfare of the police officers.

The SAPS has one of the most extended and advanced trauma management and employee support programmes as compared to other government departments and policing agencies nationally and across the continent. In the same vein, the SA Police Service has the most draconian, reactive and constitutional nonaligned policies, which make it a tall order for any visionary to implement all these excellent strategies, plans and programmes, that are mentioned above.

The SAPS leadership thus needs the urgent support of Members of Parliament to help SAPS align all their operational instruments; policies, national instructions and standing orders - by reviewing and amending all the relevant national policies and legislation like what they are attempting to do on the White Paper, on safety and security and also on police accordingly.

We have three fundamental documents to do this: The National Development Plan, the National Employee Health and Wellness Framework and recommendations provided in the Farlam Commission Report as was tabled to the nation by the President. All three documents have one common call for the Department of Police, to revamp policing protocols for a professionalised SA Police Service as aligned to the democratic Constitution.

Our system of governance is based on human rights. In this instance, in May 2015, the SAPS and the SA Human Rights Commission signed a Memorandum of Understanding on human rights, obligating the two organisations to collaborate with immediate effect and to ensure that the police and the community respect human rights at all times.

This Memorandum of Understanding sends a strong signal that the SAPS is committed to upholding the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and that as the Department of Police, we are resolute in our aim to conduct all our activities in line with the Bill of Rights. The partnership must then be seen as a collaborative effort to ensure that police officials observe the correct rules and procedures when performing their important duties.

We agree that there are some bad apples within the SA Police Service, and we are decisively dealing with them through measures that are already in place. For instance, with the relevant prescripts, applicable legislation and the agreement we have with the SA Human Rights Commission, SAHRC, we have already fired and criminally charged those police officers that used unnecessary brutal force against our citizens and other inhabitants of South Africa.

Everybody saw the judgment posed on the eight former police officers that murdered Mido Macia. We are thus confident that our oversight and agreement frameworks that are in place, in the form of Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, and SAHRC respectively, will continue to investigate and monitor without fear and favour, police officers that are transgressing the laws of this country.

Police officers who have been found guilty of any crime are duly arrested, charged and prosecuted. And every police officer knows that consequences are severe if she or he is implicated in any corrupt or criminal activity. The recommendations of Farlam Commission will also be implemented. The Minister of Police is busy establishing a team of experts to ensure that the curriculum coupled with the training of our police officers at SAPS academies are enhanced and strengthened.

But as the SAPS leadership we will not allow certain so-called experts to vilify and negatively generalise about our police officers’ conduct. We will discredit with contempt any destructive criticism with a distorted notion that this country has no systems of good governance in place.

This means to have a professional police service, we must have a holistic support system to our human resource to ensure risk management, occupational health, safety, productivity and wellness of government employees and their families, and the safety of citizens in the Republic of South Africa. The Employee Health and Wellness Management Strategic Framework must also be implemented in full.

So, as the SA Police Service celebrates it 20 years of existence as a police service in a democratic society, let us utilise this given opportunity to strengthen the transformation of the SAPS for a front line service delivered by a professional police officer. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and members, safety and security is one of the most important rights bestowed upon citizens in a free country. It is inseparable from the core elements of a civilised society and it forms the basis of all our freedoms. To feel safe in one’s own country is a right which the government has an active duty to help ensure and it is for this reason that we establish and maintain the best armed forces and police services that we possibly can.

To serve as a police man or woman in the SA Police Service, Saps, is noble work; it requires dedication, sacrifice, courage and discipline. It is noble work because these men and women put themselves in the line of fire to protect us, the citizens of South Africa. In return, we have a duty to equip them in the best possible way for their task to ensure that not a single life in the Police Service is lost. Yet, 58 police officers have already lost their lives this year. That is almost two officers per week. A figure that is, as the hon Deputy Minister also stated, much too high. This loss of life could have been prevented.

In 2011, the then Minister of Police, Nathi Mthethwa, announced a 10-point plan to combat police killings. Most of these points unfortunately dealt more with how we are going to monitor and report on these deaths of fallen officers and the pomp related to their burial rather than taking immediate action to keep them alive. However, in a rare moment of sensible rhetoric, one plan stood out as a proper effort to address the issue head on; to improve the training of our police officers. I could not agree more with Minister Mthethwa on this point. Sadly, not enough has been done to achieve this and the number of police officers who have lost their lives since his announcement in 2011 has not significantly dropped.

On this point, the Institute of Security Studies states that plans for promoting police safety were not being implemented and that, I quote:

Required training is non-existent or inadequate. There are not enough bullet-proof vests and probably most importantly, there is poor managerial supervision and accountability at station and unit level. As a result, police officials do not follow proper procedures when responding to complaints, searching suspects or making arrests, do not use the equipment effectively and are not safety conscious.

These make them vulnerable targets. Additional to this, crime intelligence gathering incapacity under Richard Mdluli, has negatively impacted on our Police Service’s ability to obtain intelligence. Vital risk assessments and intelligence is often lacking or are inaccurate, yet our officers are sent into dangerous situations.

We should then acknowledge that this is our own fault, if criminals out-manoeuvre our police if we don’t equip them with adequate training or intelligence. There are sufficient experts who have the skills to properly train Saps members. We should approach them. Advanced fire-arm training, self-defence manoeuvres, weapon retention, danger prediction, fitness training, disarmament prevention and other forms of training need to be done with existing service members as a matter of urgency and all new members should be put through this training on entry into the Saps for their own safety. It sadly - four years after Minister Mthethwa’s report - falls to the current Minister to ensure the proper implementation of the most important of the 2011 10-point plan training.

The SAPS has a R72,5 billion with a R20,5 billion contingent liability projection for police misconduct. Apportioning some of these funds to address the lack of resources and training will surely be a first step in the right direction. There is also a lot to say for the trust relationship between the police service and civil society. The Saps cannot function properly without the trust of our citizens. Unfortunately, reported police brutality can compromise the Saps’s image and reputation of representing a respectful and professional service. Brutality and the disregard for the law on the side of a few officers combined with a lack of training and resources will surely encourage criminals to meet police with the same brutality and is bound to end up in a sad and unnecessary loss of additional life.

The issue of police fatalities during the course of duty has been threatening the stability and effectiveness of our police service for too long. It has caused irreparable damage to the lives of too many families who have lost a mother, sister, brother and breadwinners performing the noble task of keeping our communities safe. We can prevent the further unnecessary loss of police lives through proper training by repairing the damaged trust relationship between the Saps and communities and by not appointing the politically connected individuals into positions at the Saps over experienced police officers.

The time to institute effective steps to prevent unnecessary deaths within Saps is long over due, the lives of our Saps officers depend on this. The lives lie in your hands, hon Minister. It’s a great responsibility that should not be taken lightly. Without these decisive steps we all lose. Without it, hon Deputy Minister, only the criminals can win. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms W TIKANA (Eastern Cape): Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister, members of the House, MECs present and distinguished guests, good afternoon. Hon Speaker during the apartheid era before 1994 the police force was highly respected and feared by the community members despite the fact that the majority of the black people were objectified and dehumanised by the apartheid repressive laws.

Harassment, torture, teargas and all other forms of abuse were the order of the day under the pass oppressive regime through use of the police force. The South African Police Service which was established in the new democratic South Africa in which all people enjoy equal rights before the law is the one which is not respected by the community members and criminals.

Contrary to the attitudes towards the old police regime, thugs are brutally killing the police officers whilst they are doing their level best to combat all criminal activities in communities so that the people can live in peace and harmony with one another. The Freedom Charter encompasses peace and security for all that live in this country in the post Apartheid Era.

The ANC January 8 statement stressed the need to urge all the communities to participate fully in various community safety forums and work with the South African Police Service and other law enforcement agencies to fight crime. A crime free Province and country has a huge potential to attract the investors from abroad for the economy to grow and address the triple challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality to reflect in the National Development Plan, NDP, vision 2030.

During the state of the nation address in February this year, the Honourable President accentuated the point that criminal activities have got to be brought under containment in our country in order to attract investors. What is happening right now is fast growing to destroy all the gains of our hard fought democracy. The nature of our democracy has been designed in such a way that the communities and police officers work together hand in glove to uphold peace and stability, virtually in all communities.

This is the reason Community Police Forums were consciously and deliberately established to foster good relations between the SAPS and the communities in the fight against crime. Indeed, the fight against crime requires an integrated approach and this should entail establishing more street and village committees as well as community safety forums at local and municipal levels.

It is heart breaking to lay bare at this majestic House that, the recent attacks on police officers and high number of the murders of police officers on and off duty especially at police stations are of a serious concern in the South African Police Service. The attacks and killings of police officers have a negative bearing on the morale of all members of the SAPS, most especially the operational members. These attacks and killings also undermine the perception of member’s ability to effectively deal with crime.

Hon Chairperson, it is however, the responsibility of all managers of the SAPS to ensure that all police officers are informed and educated to accept responsibility for their own safety and should prevent all forms of attacks and killings from taking place. SAPS management continues though, to conduct internal awareness campaigns for their members to alert them on their safety. The training programmes have been prioritised in order to make our SAPS members combat ready, in respect of the investigation of the cases where they are being attacked.

During 2013/2014, 2014/2015 and 2015/2016 up to end of July financial year, a total number of 34 police members had been killed in the Eastern Cape, 10 members on duty and 24 members off duty.

Police members were killed on duty whilst attending to complaints and effecting arrests at the time of the incident. The majority of cases where members were killed off duty happened at their residences or in the surrounding areas. Hon Chair in the Eastern Cape Province, the following areas were identified as some of the hotspot areas wherein such killings are taking place, Mthatha, Elliotdale, Butterworth, Gelvandale, KwaZakhele and Bell.

Preventative actions hon Chair were put in place to assist police members in making sure that they make their own safety a priority. The following are some of such interventions, visiting off duty parades; visiting members during operations to ensure compliance with police safety directives and standing orders, ensuring that all members, reservists are issued with bullet resistant vests and firearm retention cords, awareness campaigns, imbizo, radio talk shows and sensitizing the community to respect and stop killing the police.

Maintenance shooting practices and tactical training refreshers courses, station lectures to ensure that police killings is a point for discussion in all the meetings of the role players and those areCPFs, Women’s Network, Rural Safety meeting, Youth Crime Forums and other structures and internal communication have been intensified.

Hon Chair, a decision was taken that as a reactive measure; all cases of police killings should be thoroughly investigated and prioritised. It is expected that finalisations of such cases will serve as a deterrent to others with same intentions. Support interventions are also in place where SAPS will provide our police members with employee support and assistance programme provide debriefing and counselling of affected members and immediate families and also provide skills development of commander’s initial debriefing and prevention of suicide.

In conclusion hon Chairperson, to stop attacks and killings of police members is of extreme importance in the South African Police Service. Specific attention will be given to the proactive, reactive and support interventions. Robust monitoring and evaluation mechanisms will be put in place by the Provincial, Cluster and Station Commanders, in order to curb police killings. Commander and control by all commanders as well as commitment and compliance with instructions by members will reduce the number of police killings. The Department of Safety and Liaison will continue with its oversight mandate at police stations to monitor compliance by police members to instructions.

It is concerning to us that members of the police service are attacked whilst trying to protect the citizens of this country and if these killings continue in this manner, who else will protect us as citizens of the Republic of South Africa? We therefore call upon all community members to act as integral cogs of government in the fight against crime. Let us protect and allow our brothers and sisters to do their work properly without fear, for the benefit of all communities, both rural and urban.

I would like to take this opportunity to express my profound condolences to the families that have lost their sons and daughters during the killing spree of the police members on and off duty in our country, may their souls rest in peace, I thank you. [Applause ]

Mr D L XIMBI: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister, MECs, Permanent Delegates and VIPs in the gallery, police killing in South Africa is deplorable and absolutely unacceptable. Vicious attacks upon our police officers by criminals have become the order of the day. Almost 60 police officers have been killed in the country since the beginning of 2015, an increase of 10% over the same period last year. Many of our men and women in blue employed to protect our citizens are being ruthlessly taken out by thugs.

Clearly, this predicament requires new thinking and possible even the re-organising of SA Police Service, SAPS. The 2015 White Paper on Police recently introduced in the Parliament supports the National Development Plan, NDP’s vision of a modernised, transformed and efficient criminal justice system as well as professional and highly skilled police service. A single police service has also been moulded.

Building safe communities is a key objective for the country by 2030 and the NDP sets the following five priorities: strengthening the criminal justice system; make the police service professional; demilitarise the police; build safe communities using an integrated approach; and build community participation in safety. The Constitution of South Africa, section 205(3) states that:

The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.

It is with this in mind that we need to look at the legislative framework governing the work of police officers and the operational work environment to better respond to these police killings. Besides the White Paper on Police we are also looking into the number of guns legally and illegally in the hands of the criminals hence the need to work together and ensure that illegal guns become a thing of the past.

Furthermore, we need to look at the formation and operation of guns and organised crime and determine strategies to deal with these more effective. This will require very necessary funding. In addressing the issue of police killings, we need to understand the circumstances in which the killings are taking place. Some of the deaths occurred while the police officers are on duty and some are perpetuated while some are off duty.

Either way, we need to understand the nature of these police killings towards a viable solution. There are challenges faced by the SAPS which require an immediate and urgent attention pertaining inter-align. Violent crime is on the increase and must be eradicated through every possible means. Investigation of crime must be expedited, dealt with professionally and with special emphasis upon appropriate capacitating of the related human resource in the police service; eradicating a more sophisticated criminal mindset which its capacity increases by the day.

However, to achieve a single police service we also need to ensure that police officers understand their roles and responsibilities and carry out the value embodied in our Constitution. I am not going to read it all because everybody knows the Constitution but let me touch a few. Police officer must be impartial; well trained and competent, nonracial, nonsexist in practise and in its structure; respect human dignity and uphold and protect human rights; be militarised and decision-making must be transparent; police resources must be fairly distributed to all communities; police should be subject to an independent police complaints and investigative body to ensure that there is no corruption or bias; and finally the police must be representative of a community and be accountable to the community they serve.

Currently important is inter-align that certain advanced training be provided as our speakers said before me. Advanced training in the use of firearms for police officers; hone their protective mechanism and response to criminals; orientation training for effective back up mechanisms; awareness of their environment and avoidance of driving into line of fire whilst ensuring their protection at all times; regular effective trauma counselling and debriefing should be carried out with police officers to ensure that they have the emotional support to carry out their work effectively.

On the issue of tools of trade we must ensure that police officers are given the best equipment to carry out their work and to protect themselves and the community. Community interaction cannot be overemphasised. In order to gain support and involve communities, police officers need to work closely with these communities. Consistent and effective programmes aimed at addressing societal issues in relating to family, schools and neighbourhoods are required. These will require the involvement and participation of various other departments and civil society’s role players who should work closely with the police in these matters. Social service is vital.

Initiatives such as setting up task teams aim at focussing on investigation and to deal with the critical issues in a focused manner. A good example of this is the recent set up of a task team in Gauteng which is aimed specifically at focussing upon and addressing the investigations and arrest of those criminals who are killing police officers.

Effective policing requires the collection and effective use of crime intelligence, strategically targeted patrols, roadblocks and visible policing. In conclusion, we need to work together to ensure the reduction of crime in South Africa and to also ensure that police officers as well as the communities that they serve are and feel safe. A fresh approach embracing new thinking, modernising of the service and even re-organising the SAPS as well as to also focus upon the possible inclusion of Medpol in whatever form is a dire imperative.

Sihlalo umntu obulala ipolisa usibulele isizwe. Amapolisa ngoonyana bethu, ngabantwana bethu, ngabakhwenyana, ngoodade bethu nabantakwethu eNkosini. Sihlaba umkhosi kwisizwe sonke siphela, kumaphondo olithoba oMzantsi Afrika, ukuba sime ngeenyawo silwe nezigila-mkhuba, oonqevu, abantu abafuna ukubulala ilizwe lethu. Wabulala ipolisi, wabulala isizwe. Ndiyabulela Sihlalo. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, anyone who kills police officers is killing our nation. Police officers are our sons, our children, our sons in law, our sisters and brothers in the Lord. We are calling upon the whole nation, in nine provinces of South Africa, to stand up and fight with the perpetrators, criminals, people who want to kill our nation. If you kill a police officer, you kill the nation. Thank you Chairperson. [Applause.]]

Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, on a point of order: I just want to check whether it is parliamentary for hon Vawda and hon Mtileni to be changing the red things here. Hon Mtileni is dressed like he is going to the beach. That is not respecting the decorum of this House. Can you rule on that?

Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you Chair, I just want to point out that we come from the working classes. We share, we communalise what we have and we intend to communalise the resources.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Vawda, can you take your seat. Hon members we are very much aware that we do have that old version of rules and we have a team that is working on finalising the rules. I am appealing to all of you, irrespective of political affiliation not to do anything that will compromise the decorum of the House. I am not talking to any party but to hon members. I am appealing to all of you to let your conscience assist you to do something that will make sure that at all times you maintain the decorum of the House. Hon Vawda, the floor is yours.

Dr Y C VAWDA: Allow me first and foremost to acknowledge the presence of our supreme forces, irrespective of whatever our perceptions might be. The rest of us, hon Chair, remain mere mortals. That then leaves me with the enviable task of greeting you all with As-Salaam-Alaikum.

Because the people of South Africa are deprived of social security service, the population increasingly seeks financial security. This then leads to a situation in which the coffer is never full enough. We find people from all walks of life who are continuously seeking to accumulate wealth in order to ensure sufficient to provide not only for their daily needs but also their wants.

There is no limit to the extent that people would resort to in order to accumulate this wealth. This unfortunately will not always be through morally upright efforts. It is not policemen and women who are victims of this situation but many other employees in the state services and also people in the private sector. The latter, perhaps, in a very subtle sense, even more guilty of the same. With no other choice members of the police services fall victim to a situation which eventually makes them victims of the same.

It is the great socioeconomic disparity that exists in this country that is fuelling this situation of increasing crime and especially violent crime. The police unfortunately are becoming the victims of this situation. But it is redressing this situation that will go a long way to address the problem. And at this stage allow me please to quote Kahlil Gibran from his book The Prophet on crime when he says:

And this also, though the word lie heavy upon your hearts: the murdered is not unaccountable for his own murder, and the robbed is not blameless in being robbed. The righteous is not innocent of the deeds of the wicked, and the white-handed is not clean in the doings of the felon. Yea, the guilty is oftentimes the victim of the injured, and still more often the condemned is the burden-bearer for the guiltless and unblamed.

The killing of police officers is a brutal attack on law and order. It is the government who sets the pace and standard on how its citizens engage law enforcement agencies. It is this promotion of the culture of violence by the ANC that leads to a very violent society that even kills its own police officers. It is through this ANC government that our people were taught that resolution to problems should be through violence. It was the ANC who used police to kill mineworkers in Marikana for demanding a living wage, just as the apartheid government used police to kill black people in Sharpeville and Langa for demanding to be treated as equal human beings.

When there were differences not so long ago in this parliament you applied violence against the leadership of the EFF. And only last week in august House and in the Women’s month you had the audacity to apply violence against a woman Member of Parliament, MP of the EFF.

The relationship between society and the police was damaged by decades of apartheid wherein police were active agents in shutting down people’s resistance to apartheid.

Post 1994 the ANC has continued on this Path, using police to harass and kill black people who dare to demand accountability from their government. It was the ANC that used police to kill to kill Andries Tatane for demanding services for his community just as the apartheid government police killed Steve Biko for affirming that blacks are as human as whites are.

It was the police employed by the ANC government that killed Mido Macia, it is the police, employed by the ANC government that are involved in criminal activities, who refuse to respond adequately to the plight of black people in the townships who are harassed on a daily basis by criminals. The ANC sustained the divide between the people and the police that was created and institutionalised by apartheid.

We say this to highlight the causes of police killings, not to condone them. We condemn with the strongest possible terms the killings of our men in uniform and demand proper leadership to stem this terrible tide. Since the beginning of the year, over 56 police officers have been killed in South Africa. This is 56 police officers too many.

Instead of sweating over the lies he was forced to tell in defence of Nkandla, the nation’s monument of corruption, Minister Nhleko must be held personally responsible for not ensuring that our police are properly trained and taken care of.

Criminals are more often better armed and better trained than the police. The ANC is sending our men in uniform to certain death each time they have to respond to a case of armed robbery or cash heists. And to quote Thomas Sankara loosely: “A policemen or soldier who is without ... [Time expired.]

Mr B KOMPHELA (Free State): Hon House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, MECs, colleagues from different provinces, Members of this important House, the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, it is a great honour for us, as representatives of the Free State province, to participate in such an important debate. We, as the police force, in the Free State this is what keeps us alive every time and again when we assemble:

Le ha re ka tsamaya kgohlong ya moriti wa lefu, re keke ra tshoha bobe le ha bo le bong, hobane Molimo wa rona o a re tshireletsa. Ke seo ba sepolesa, tsatsing le leng le le leng le tjhabang, ba tlamehileng ho fumana morolo le motlotlo ho sona, teng hore batle ba kgone ho sebetsa hantle letsatsing leno. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[Even though we walk in the shadow of the valley of death, we will fear no evil, because our Lord protects us. That is what the police – with every rising sun – must derive the energy and pride from, so that they are able to function properly on that day.]

Hon House Chairperson, I just want to correct one or two things from the hon Michalakis. Your emphasis on the training is what we agreed upon. But I am sure you are coming from the Free State a province where the presence of the police is the order of the day and is felt by everybody.

With regard to the training of the police - when there is a cash-in-transit robbery you do not open up your handbook and read what you should do. During the night when there is a crossfire you have to think whilst running. No training will be able to help the police when they are instantly called upon to respond to an automated teller machine, ATM, bombing. Whilst running to respond to the ATM attack there is no training that comes in there. It is only what you can make to survive and stop the criminals. Yes, training is fine, but training alone will not be able to do all the things that you have to do.

Let me come to the reality that is faced by the police in the Free State province. Hon Michalakis knows that in Vrede there was an attack of an elderly man and a lady. The elderly man was shot five times on the head - thanks God he survived - and the lady three times on the head, but in less than eight hours those criminals were already brought to book. And a firearm was found in one of those criminals. [Applause.]

In Bothaville, you know exactly what happened there. An old lady was killed but within four hours the police were already on the scene to apprehend the perpetrator. But the apprehension executed there was not just a theory of the book. When these elderly farm dwellers were attacked by these gun-toting criminals we would never have left our guns behind and go there to pray. The criminals were carrying AK-47s, but we responded and they lost the battle.

And what we are always saying in the Free State province is that when criminals are carrying AK-47s they are actually saying to the police, be on your toes because we are here to eliminate you in order for us to be able to gain on the proceeds of crime. And, we, in the Free State province do not hesitate, we respond adequately. Because you stay in that province, you can go and check. And I am sure you know what is happening there.

In Harrismith, where an elderly person you spoke about was attacked, we responded and got the cellphone of that person. There is no single attack or murder in the Free State that has ever gone by without police’s response within less than eight hours. This is all because we are focused. Crime in the Free State is not prioritised only because it was perpetrated against farm dwellers. Crime in the Free State is a crime in spite of who the victim might be. [Applause.] A murder in the Free State is not classified; it is a murder because human beings have murdered another human being. That is how we respond to these matters in the Free State. [Applause.]

Hon Vawda knows. Although coming from a poor background but he has never went out to eliminate people for his financial gains.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Komphela.

Mr B KOMPELA (Free State): Yes, sir.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry, hon Van Lingen.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, my point of order is that, the hon member on the podium must please address the members through you, as the House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon Komphela ... [Interjections.].

Mr B KOMPHELA (Free State): Hon Chair ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): ... please address this House through me.

Mr B KOMPHELA (Free State): ... I will. Hon House Chair, hon Vawda comes from the background of poverty. These white people were indulging in fat and good life; they know nothing about the poverty that he went through. But he never chose the shortest route - killing people for his financial gains or for survival. What kind of poverty is this, whereby you rape and kill an elderly person and thereafter everybody would say, it is because of your background?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Komphela, can I please take a point of order. Hon Julius?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon House Chair, my point of order is whether it is parliamentary to point fingers at these white people. Can the hon House Chair please rule on that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, eh ... [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: A finger?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Komphela is pointing a finger when talking, but not at a specific member in the House. [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: He said, “These white people ... ” [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, hon Julius, take your seat ... [Interjections.] ... Hon Julius! Hon Julius! Hon Julius, you raised a point of order and I am addressing it. I am saying, the hon MEC on the podium is talking and pointing a finger. And I thought you will assist by showing me a particular member he was pointing at. What I am saying is that, he never pointed at a particular member in the House. Continue, hon Komphela.

Mr B KOMPHELA (Free State): Hon House Chair, through you, hon Vawda you are right, the ANC propagated the idea of a peaceful protest. But a peaceful protest is not when people are gun toting, panga and knobkerrie wielding. That is no more peaceful. As soon you see those things in the domain of what is alleged to be a peaceful march, then you must know that that is no longer a peaceful march, but a march that could have unintended consequences. Therefore compliance with the Constitution requires that whilst people have the freedom to march but they must respect the fact that, that freedom cannot be on the pangas, guns and knobkerrie.

You spoke about the police brutality when making reference to the death of Mr Tatane. You must talk to us the people of Free State who were there on that fateful morning when he beat eight police officers. Eeight! But everybody says this man was a peace-loving person - he was peaceful. Eight police officers fell on the ground yet he is alleged to have been peaceful to the bone. We had to stop him at some stage. There has never been a desire by police to kill Mr Tatane arbitrarily. There has never been the case.

Hon Deputy Minister, through you hon House Chair, you and the Minister are definitely on the right course in making this police force to be something that everybody is going to admire; to be a home where all of us will run and find protection.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hold on for a while, hon Komphela. Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon House Chair, on a point of order. I just want to know from the MEC whether he will take a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Komphela ... [Interjections.] ... No, hon members. No, hon members. Hon Komphela, are you ready to take a question?

Mr B KOMPELA (Free State): No, hon House Chair, the time is very short. Maybe, I will, when I am finished with my speech.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, the hon Komphela is not ready to take your question. Hon member, you made a request and I am assisting you. Take your seat. The hon MEC made himself very clear that time is against him. [Interjections.]

Mr B KOMPHELA (Free State): Hon House Chair, through you, I want to say to the Deputy Minister, wena noNgqongqoshe niyaqhuba. [You, together with the Minister, are moving forward.] The police in this country at this point in time are on the right direction. But people must never take advantage and go to the police ... In fact community brutality against the police is on the rise. There is no police brutality against the people. People resist arrest under the cloak of saying, it is the police that are going to be questioned first and not themselves.

When people on the border of Lesotho are carrying AK-47s and crossing over to South Africa to take cattle from the poor people and hold people hostage in their shops, must the police go with a bible to take those weapons? Those criminals are saying, let somebody come we will quickly eliminate that person, go away with murder and the police will remain subjected to all questions and everything.

We say no! Not in the Free State province. Operation Hlasela and Operation Wanya Tsotsi will tell, we are there and nothing is going to happen. The rule of law is prevailing in the Free State province and there is order. [Applause.]

Fighting crime and corruption is one of the things that we are doing in the Free State province. But it is informed, as the Deputy Minister has presented, by the four pillars in which we want to do all these things. However, those four pillars need a joint effort by all stakeholders to implement so that, at least, we must be able to make an impact. Fortunately, in the Free State we had only one police who was killed in the line of duty and the other one was not in the line of duty.

However, if anybody happens to kill a police officer, we track down that perpetrator using helicopters and dogs as well as assistance from members of the community and bring him to book. We are not going to let criminals just run amok and kill people simply because we are afraid to come and stand here. People raise nasty things when people have lost their lives. If any of your members in the Free State has lost their lives, you must know that the MEC for Police and General Mpempe are there to make sure that that perpetrator is brought to book no matter how much it cost. If it warrants us to go to courts, we are ready to go and defend the course of the noble and the peace-loving people of this country. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Round up, hon MEC.

Mr B KOMPHELA (Free State): Hon House Chair, I would like to say to this NCOP, these kinds of debates are very important. But they must not be the kinds of debates that are emotive and that are aimed at accusing anybody. They must be the kinds of the debates where we, as representatives from provinces in this House, would ask ourselves questions like, what is our approach in as far as this endemic of killing police is concerned and, secondly, what joint effort can we put together in making sure that we completely eliminate this so that it should never happen again. Thank you very much, House Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chairperson, in light of the increase in the number of police officers murdered, the country has to consider a number of interventions to respond to this matter of national concern.

The UDM therefore proposes that anyone who is appointed National Police Commissioner must have a certain amount of police operations experience. There are many that can be found within the police service who have the skill to occupy this office. This should be linked to the need to have a National Police Commissioner chosen by Parliament, as is done when appointing the Inspector-General of Intelligence. There is also a need to look at practical ways to make local policing forums more representative of people with added capacity in order for them to play a more practical role in assisting the work of the police in the safety of all citizens.

This challenge of police killings demands that police leaders double their work in improving the overall management of the use of force by police officers. Simply threatening harsh sanctions against police murderers and encouraging police to focus on using more force in their interaction with criminals and suspects are unlikely to improve officer safety. It will play into systematic police brutality that will cause civilians to become fearful and less co-operative with the police.

Police leadership urgently has to start focusing on improving the strategic management and internal accountability capacity that will support professional police. Police members must be prepared to better confront dangerous criminals and defend themselves and citizens. They need the necessary skills and confidence to handle the complexities they confront in daily interaction with the public while enforcing the law against all criminals. There is also an urgent need to improve public trust in the police by, amongst others, decreasing police corruption and brutality.

Communities must be mobilised to start respecting and supporting police officers as public servants who are well trained and whose behaviour is held to a much higher standard. Professional police officers must be encouraged and skilled to avoid using force in their interaction with the public. South Africa wants a police force that can be trusted because its leaders are beyond reproach and its members are widely recognised as being professional.

The UDM therefore calls on the public to stop police killings, as police officers are their brothers and sisters.

Okokugqibela, ngokwenyani kudala ayehlonitshwa amapolisa, asinakuze siyibaleke loo nto leyo. Thina ke sakhula ngelaa xesha mama, kwakuthi xa kuvela ipolisa, ubaleke kuba wawuhlonipha isinxibo esi sepolisa. Ubusithi nokuba uyazalana na nepolisa, kodwa uhloniphe isinxibo esi. Ngoku loo mbeko iphelile. Kuyafuneka ukuba sikhe sizijonge sizigocagoce ngaphakathi kuba aba bantu babulala amapolisa ngabantu abazalana nathi. Abanye siyabazi, masiyeke ukube siziqhatha apha kuba abaninzi bazalana nathi, bazizihlobo zethu. Lifikile ixesha lokuba, ukwenzela isizwe, ukuba ngaba ukhona umntu omaziyo obulele ipolisa, nokuba uzalana nawe, umxele kuba ingxaki ilapho apho ikhoyo.

Sekela Sihlalo, libalulekile eli nqaku ndiza nalo, kukho into esingazange siyenze oko sakhululekayo. Zange ziyihlalele phantsi siyishukuxe into yokuthatha imipu ebantwini. Ibalulekile loo nto leyo kuba kaloku siyaphela ngaba bantu. Enyanisweni nokuba unephephamvume lompu, Sekela Mphathiswa - mna ndinayo imipu mithathu ineempephamvume kodwa zifana nezingekhoyo, andizazi nokuba zinjani na, Sekela Mphathiswa. Aba bantwana bakhohlakele. Lifikile ixesha lokuba sibuyise isidima soMzantsi Afrika, umhlophe, untsundu mayiphele le nto yobuhlanga.

Ebikhe yathethwa ngohloniphekileyo uKhompela, ikhe yenzeka le nto phaya eMpuma Koloni - yokuba kubekho ulwaphulo-mthetho olungcono kunolunye. Uya kufumanisa ukuba xa kubulewe abantu abathile uya kubona kundanda iihelikopta kodwa abantu bakuthi bafa yonke imihla. Ikhohlakele ke loo nto leyo. Abantu bakuthi bafa mihla le bangahoywa, kodwa xa kufe abantu abathile kufuneka kubekho iihelikopta ezincedisayo. Kufuneka siphathwe ngokufanayo njengabemi beli lizwe. Kufuneka silingane. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Finally, it is a fact that in the olden days the police were respected, we cannot run away from that. We grew up at a time when, as a child, you saw a policeman or woman and ran away out of respect for the uniform. It did not matter that you were related to the policeman or woman, you just respected the uniform. Now such respect is gone. We need to do some soul-searching because the people who kill the police are our relatives. We know some of them; many of them are our relatives, we must not delude ourselves. The time has come for us, for the sake of our nation - in case one knows someone who has killed a policeman or woman - to report them even if they are related to us.

Chairperson, the point I am about to make is very important; there is something we did not do since the dawn of freedom. We never sat down and discussed the issue of removing firearms from the people. That is very important because we are dying like flies at the hands of such people. Indeed even if the firearms are licensed, Deputy Minister – I have three licensed firearms but it is like the licences are not there, I do not even know what they look like. The children of today are cruel. The time has come for us to restore South Africa’s dignity, and racism must end.

Hon Khompela mentioned something that happened in the Eastern Cape, of rating crime. You will find that when certain people have been killed there will be a helicopter hovering above, yet our people die every day. That is cruelty. Our people die on a daily basis and nothing happens, yet when certain people have died you find helicopters helping out. We have to be treated equally as citizens. We have to be equal. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Ms S NKOSI-MALOBANE (Gauteng): Deputy Chairperson, House Chairperson hon Nyambi, Deputy Minister of Police Sotyu, all MECs present, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, allow me, as MEC of the people of Gauteng province, to express my heartfelt appreciation at the opportunity to be in this august house today. I am here carrying a heavy heart and a gaping wound in my soul to shed light on these vicious and barbaric killings of our men and women in blue.

As a servant of the people of Gauteng, I am here representing the silent victims of these police killings who are the widows, widowers, orphans and loved ones of all the fallen heroes and heroines who dedicated themselves to the noblest cause to serve and protect. As the Gauteng Department of Community Safety, our door is flooded with the tears of inconsolable grief. The murder of one police officer on duty is one too many.

It is against this background that, as a servant of the people of Gauteng, I am here today to paint the picture as unfolding in our province. For the record, it does justice to this august house that I reassure you of the unshakeable commitment of the men and women in blue in the Gauteng City-Region to serve and protect. However, for law enforcement agencies to win this battle, it is incumbent upon us, the lawmakers, to revisit the gun laws as a matter of urgency. This emanates from a shocking discovery wherein out of carelessness, legal gun owners, including those that have three guns, have allowed their guns to fall in the hands of the heartless and evil criminals who go on rampages to terrorise our communities.

Gauteng law enforcement agencies are hot on the heels of these criminals. We are not giving them any space to breathe. The following transpired in the not too distant past. Three suspects linked to the murder of Constable N J Buthelezi in Vosloorus were arrested in August and one of them positively linked to the killing of another police officer Constable F S Ledwaba at Park Station, Johannesburg. A man linked to the murder of Warrant Officer Mosekwane killed in Hillbrow in August was arrested and his accomplice fatally wounded during a shootout with the police in Jeppestown. A firearm positively identified as belonging to the slain police officer was found in their possession. Two suspects, a man and woman, who allegedly murdered Constable Baloyi in Atteridgeville were apprehended within 48 hours.

The abovementioned attests to the determination and commitment of our unsung and selfless heroes and heroines who have worked tirelessly to apprehend the perpetrators of these senseless and barbaric killings. Rest assured that the remaining perpetrators of these senseless killings will be brought to book in due course. The men and women in blue are hard at work.

It is incumbent upon me to highlight to this august House some of the excellent work that has been done by the men in women in blue during the past week, demonstrating their unshakeable determination to ensure the people of Gauteng are safe and feel safe. A huge drug bust with an estimated street value of R50 million was made at the O R Tambo airport, as well as a drug bust with an estimated street value of over R4 million in Liefde and Vrede, south of Johannesburg. Another drug bust was made with an estimated street value of over R8 million in Bramley next to my home, not very far from where I stay, north of Johannesburg. Suspected robbers were also arrested at the Menlyn Shopping Mall in Pretoria yesterday. This is a demonstration that our men and women in blue are not discouraged by the killing of their colleagues by criminals. They are prepared to die with their boots on. The abovementioned are some of the quick-wins we have achieved in our endeavour to eradicate the scourge of criminality in our province. In essence, the men and women in blue are hard at work. It is all hands on deck.

At a strategic level, the following has been done. Context–based interventions are in place as a special task team has been established to counter these anomalies. The most recent speedy arrests linked to police killings bear evidence. The Gauteng Community Police Forum, which comprises 143 police stations and 22 clusters, has prioritised police killings as its main agenda item to demonstrate its support in finding criminals. The relaunch of the Take Charge campaign as part of a community outreach programme, as well as launching the March movement against crime, was conducted as a vehicle to educate our communities about their role as ears and eyes of the police family.

Rigorous advocacy campaigns have been established in partnership with the relevant provincial government departments, faith-based organisations, community-based organisations, nongovernmental organisations and all civil society formations to assist in fighting this scourge of police killings and crime in the Gauteng City-Region. Public meetings have been held, and this is ongoing.

Prison visits have been initiated and conducted in partnership with multidisciplinary teams wherein, as a servant of the people of Gauteng, I had dialogues personally with the inmates to resocialise them differently. It is a fact that some of these police killings are committed by repeat offenders, hence this progressive initiative. It is still at the incubation stage, and I hope that with passion and commitment this will bring tremendous results.

Resuscitation and re-enforcement of relations with the correctional and justice system are key, as there is a high probability that through such engagements, quicker convictions can be attained for those who have been found guilty. The reinforcement of partnerships with interested structures like the research centres, business, and institutions of higher learning, is also another strategy to assist in eradicating these brutal killings because statistics and analysis will help us to adjust and adapt our operations appropriately.

Counselling and support are provided to the affected members – traumatised officers – and their families through the employee wellness programme, and other partners have come onboard to assist with the counselling services to the families of the slain officers. Strengthening our relationship with both print and electronic media is work in progress. We have engaged many local media houses to help support this campaign against police killings as public awareness will assist to a large extent.

Our efforts are not in vain as some of the most recent police-killing-related arrests came as a result of the information received from community members. This is indicative of our attempts to work closely with communities on the ground. The following, among the many, are the recommendations to eradicate police killings: improved training on tactical awareness, regular engagements to share good practice, and wearing protective jackets or bulletproof vests at all times, as a precautionary measure by the police officers, including those working at community service centres.

In conclusion, as a servant of the people of Gauteng, I have requested the provincial commissioner and chief of police of metro police departments to investigate the causes of these killings and develop a strategy for the task team to decisively deal with this scourge. We shall strengthen the Police Inspectorate in our quest to eradicate these senseless killings.

In Gauteng province, we have lost about 30 police officers, slain by an enemy who lacks any honour and respect for human life. This enemy seeks to undermine our attempts to create safer communities as well as undermining the state of the Republic of South Africa. This enemy seeks to weaken our morale by slaying our compatriots. On the contrary, our resolve is strengthened, and we are more determined to bring these criminals to justice. We shall not rest until the last one is brought to book and our homes and neighbourhoods are safe. Good shall never succumb to evil. They do not get to win. We will win. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms M WENGER (Western Cape): Chairperson, being a police officer is a dangerous and often times a thankless duty. The men and women who wear the badge put their lives on the line to protect us and residents of the country so that law and order can be maintained.

Unfortunately we have seen senseless killings of far too many police officers. The killing of a police officer whether on duty or not, is a ruthless and unconscionable act. According to the latest available South African Police Services Annual Report, 12 officers were killed in this province last year, 23 in Gauteng, 18 in KwaZulu-Natal, and numerous others in the remaining provinces. The number of slain police officers has decreased significantly since the dawn of our democracy when in 1994, 265 police officers lost their lives nationally. The figures do remain disturbing.

In 1998, the then Minister of Safety and Security, Sydney Mufamadi established and advisory committee to help improve the safety of our officers.

Chairperson, we must make every effort to ensure that our officers are protected from harm. In order to do this, we must do three things: first, we need to properly resource the police. Secondly, we need to build trust between communities and the police and thirdly, we need to establish victims of crime fund.

A properly resourced police service is essential not only in combating and preventing crime, but also protecting officers. The police in the Western Cape are under resourced. We have 2392 vacancies. We have 14% less detectives than what we should have. In visible policing we have 2249 less officers patrolling our communities than we ought to have.

Should all the granted posts be filled, we would have 20 additional officers on the ground for every station in our province. The lack of officers is compounded by the numbers that leave each year. 7 000 officers left last year alone.

This means that our most vulnerable communities do not have enough police officers to serve them. Officers are increasingly under pressure. The shortage of officers is compounded by the lack of force multipliers. The Reservists Policy which took half a decade to complete is prohibitive that it prevents most people from becoming police reservists. The delay on this policy resulted in a drastic decline in police reservists. In the Western Cape in one year alone we lost 82 000 police reservist hours. The most unfortunate part is that police stations that experience the highest crime levels have some of the lowest number of officers in ratio to the population they serve.

The people who are most affected by crime have the fewest officers. A few weeks ago, I went unannounced to Touws River Police Station. It was Saturday afternoon when I found: first, one policewoman on duty. There is such a shortage of officers that they can only muster one person to man the whole station. Roughly six visible police vans parked in the parking lot with no one to drive them. At night, the sole officer on duty closes the burglar gate and deals with members of the public through the gate for fear of his or her own life. Who can blame them? At the Klapmuts Police Station not too long ago, Warrant Officer Brits was the sole police officer on duty at the station. Robbers came in, murdered him and stole the weapons from that station. Where was the duty of care from management for this officer? This was a shame for failure by management and their obligation towards this officer.

This illustrates in the most brutal way how important proper resourcing of police officers in stations is to the safety not only our communities but of our officers. We need to ensure that officers are well equipped, trained and that their wellness is taken care of. Mandatory debriefings would be a useful policy intervention for example.

The second important intervention that must be made is that of building trust. The first step towards building trust between communities and the police is to make policing more responsive to individual needs of communities. Chairperson, South Africa has one of the world’s largest single centralised police service. Although it has transformed drastically since 1994, it has not managed to transform into a modern democratic and community-orientated organisation. It means that our police model is unresponsive to the needs of our communities.

This is perhaps why police brutality is becoming increasingly pervasive. The latest Independent Police Investigative Directorate Annual Report shows that there were 624 reported deaths in police custody as a result of police action, 78 cases of torture, almost 4 000 cases of assault and 121 cases of police officers raping a person. We have seen devastating cases of Mido Maria, Andries Tatane and Marikana to name just a few of the most grievous cases.

The situation is so dire, that SAPS now provisions one third of its entire annual budget, that is, R21 billion contingent liability cover for potential legal claims against SAPS members.

To put this in context, SAPS provisions the equivalent of the Western Cape’s entire budget for Health, Social Development, Cultural Affairs and Sport and Community Safety on just contingent liability.

The South African Institute of Race Relations’ study found that members of SAPS play a major role in perpetrating serious and violent crimes. It stated “it is with good reason that members of the public often do not trust the police and some are even afraid of them”. If this is not an indicator that SAPS is in need of urgent reform, then I don’t know what it is. Montesquieu said, “There is no crueller tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of law and in the name of justice”.

We need to change this to build trust and to assist our officers. A Research Paper by the Institute for Security Studies in 2011 already cited on how to stop police brutality and the killing of our officers. It said:

Using more force in the interaction with criminal suspects is unlikely to improve officer safety. It will rather play into systemic police brutality which will cause civilians to become fearful and less cooperative with the police.

Criminals will arm themselves more heavily and shoot at police more quickly if they believe they are more likely to be killed than arrested. This will make the job of police in South Africa more dangerous and may contribute to more police killings. These words of warning are increasingly coming to bear.

The third intervention we need to implement is that of the victims of crime fund. In any compassionate society and particularly one with a high crime rate like ours, victims of crime should be given assistance by the state. Victims needs support recovering from the emotional and psychological trauma associated with crime and should be entitled to compensation for medical and other costs they are forced to incur.

However, the attention of the criminal justice system is currently focused almost entirely on the criminal and not the victim. Victims of crime are marginalised and often neglected by the State and the institutions designed to uphold and protect their rights.

Policies on the rights of victims do exist, however are still far from having a meaningful impact on victim’s lives. Service delivery for victims of crime is ad hoc and not uniform across the country and we believe that the justice system needs to have victims and their rights at the heart of everything that we do. Victims should be the first consideration of every court orderly, every public prosecutor and parole board member.

We support the creation of a statutory body called the Directorate for Victims of Crime, which would be specifically mandated to represent and promote the interest of victims of crime and ensure compliance with policies on victims by all departments and investigate complaints from victims who believe their right have been violated. It would, importantly, administer victims of crime fund to ensure that victims have access to services and assistance. Into the fund would be paid all fines imposed as sentence by court, all bail monies forfeited to the State and a part of the money earned by prisoners while in prison for example.

Chairperson, it’s not surprising, that the things we need to implement to protect our officers are the same things we need to get right to improve safety in our communities.

Study after study, commission of inquiry after another, all pointed to the same systemic problems in policing. What we need is less debate and more action. Minister Mufamadi’s committee already identified that managerial and organisational shortcomings contributed to deaths and injuries of many police victims. Poor managerial accountability resulted in officers not following proper procedure for arrests and searches and misuse of equipment which made officers vulnerable to attacks.

We as parliamentarians must stop talking and start holding police management accountable. Police management has betrayed their officers by under resourcing them, by not providing the correct equipment and training, by putting corrupt or ineffectual police commissioners at the helm of this organisation. Chairperson, it is the duty of this House to properly hold the police executive to account for the sake of our officers, our citizens, and the safety of our future.

In conclusion, many of these fallen officers are our country’s story of bravery, courage and sacrifice. We remember and honour these officers who paid the ultimate price to protect us. We send our deepest and heartfelt condolences to their families, friends, and to the broader policing community. Thank you.

Ms T WANA: Chair of Chairs, hon members from the various provinces, permanent delegates, traditional leaders at home ...

... molweni bantu bakuthi. Ndimi apha ndisithi thina singumzi omnyama wase-Afrika kusehlele okusehleleyo. Thina mzi omnyama siyakhala, kodwa sikhala sinjalo, sijonge phambili kuba siyazi apho sisuka khona kwaye siyazi apho siya khona. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[... Good afternoon, countrymen. As the black nation we cannot change what has happened to. As the black nation we are lamenting. Be that as it may, we are looking ahead because we know where we come from and where we are going.]

I express my appreciation at being afforded the opportunity to communicate with the nation around the abovementioned topic.

In essence, we declare war on these heartless criminals who are destroying our country.

I am thinking of a stalwart, an icon, Steve Tshwete. He once warned the criminals that we can’t fight the good fight of transformation and the criminals just take us for granted. As the ANC, we are going to fight and we are going to win this battle.

Let me salute all the police of South Africa who died in the line of duty.

Ndithi kuni, nilale nisazi ukuba ukufa kwenu, nifela emfazweni, akulolize. Nifana noTambo, noMadiba noChris Hani. Siyazi thina ukuba nilele nje niyathetha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[I say to you, rest in peace knowing that your death in service was not in vain. You are like Tambo, Madiba and Chris Hani. We know that in your eternal sleep you are communicating with us.]

Although you are dead, you are still talking to us.

Let me congratulate the police force of South Africa. They have made strides. The police have never worked as hard as they are today. They have managed to confiscate drugs and arrest drug lords. Even the companies where the drugs are manufactured ... Our own policemen investigated them and they brought those companies to book and stopped them.

Those currently our own have managed to confiscate the criminal activities of ... [Inaudible.] ... an outsider taking South Africa for granted. That must not deter... [Applause.]

This country is a special type of country. It is a very beautiful country.

I was just reading “Cry the beloved country.” Today I say cry the beloved country and stop this killing of the innocent people.

And the families of the people of South Africa must be very vigilant as they did in the World Cup in 1920. There were no killings in 1920 ... the whole month. That means we are capable of defending our own. We must stand up and defend the police.

What I can say is ...

... bantu bakuthi, amapolisa ngabantu bethu. Mhlawumbi mandikhe ndithi, ukuba urhulumente wethu angathi xa umntu elibulele ipolisa ... [... countrymen, the police are part of us. Perhaps let me put it this way, if our government could say when someone has killed a policeman or woman ...]

... families must be committed ...

... kuba ngabo abaza kutyisa laa mntu uhleli ejele. [... because they are the ones who are going maintain the person who killed the member of the police in jail.]

... because the police are the arms of the government. You cannot afford to destroy one of the arms of the consolidated government, democratic as it is. That is very much unfair.

I am listening to other parties.

Niyayazi ke, bantu bakuthi, ukuba umntu ongayihambanga indlela akabazi ubude bayo. Indoda endala phaya ine-ovarolo kodwa zange isebenze nasemgodini. [Uwele-wele.] Ize kuma apha ngoku, kuba niyazi, bantu bakuthi, ukuba le nto iyi-ANC yimbawula, iyagawulwa. Imbawula ke uyigawula nokuba ayenzanga nto. Uze kuma apha wathetha kabuhlungu ngelizwe lethu, ingathi yena akanguye owalapha kuba kaloku i-ovarolo sisinxibo seengcibi. Umntu one-ovarolo ufuna ukwenza into engacacanga. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[You know, countrymen, that there is no better teacher than experience. An old man there has overalls on yet he never even worked in the mines. [Interjections.] Now he comes and stands here, countrymen, and speaks ill of the ANC because the ANC is as hot as a brazier, for no apparent reason. He came here and spoke ill of our country, as if he does not belong here, just because he was in overalls which is the attire of craftsmen. A person in an overalls wants to do shoddy work.]

The CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Just hold on, hon Wana. Hon Mathys?

Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. The hon member must withdraw the comment about the old man in the red overalls. It is very inappropriate. He is an hon member. Please ask the member to withdraw, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mathys, what must be withdrawn?

Ms L MATHYS: The comment about the old man in red overalls not going and never having been to a mine. She has no idea where hon Vawda has been and has not been. So, please ask her to withdraw that, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, can you take your seat. You rose on a point of order. It is up to me to interpret the point of order you made. It will be better for me to say that I will refer to Hansard, because the manner in which you are raising it, and the manner in which it was raised ... there’s nothing that is out of order. It is a point for debate. You are raising a point for debate.

Hon Van Lingen?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I don’t want to go against your ruling, but I think if you do not agree with what was said by the hon member who is at the podium, then you should listen to the translation that we are getting, because it clearly referred to an old man in a red overall.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Van Lingen ...

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: And this hon member said he is ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Van Lingen ...

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... – they were talking about him – he is not wearing a red overall. We must stop this ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Van Lingen ...

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... playing around with words.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Van Lingen, can you take a seat. The fortunate part is that I don’t need the interpretation. I got what was said by the hon member. Already my ruling is that I am going to go through Hansard to see the context in which it was raised. What is wrong with it?

Because, in Hansard, it will be interpreted but I don’t need the interpretation because I got the message. Continue, hon Wana. [Interjections.] No, hon Mathys ...

Ms L MATHYS: You are confusing me, House Chair, I am really confused here. And you confuse us all the time. First you tell me that this is a matter for debate. We are not debating an hon or an old man in red overalls here, and whether he has been to the mines or not. This House keeps on taking decisions about remarks made by speakers at the podium that are disparaging to other members, especially members of the EFF. You keep making rulings that this is a point for debate. How is that a point for debate? We refer to members in this House as “hon member”. You insist that we do that. We as the EFF, even though we don’t want to, we do it. So, old man ... we are not here ... this is not an ageism party. We are all here for the same thing. So please be consistent in your ruling. If you need to check Hansard, say so, but stop using this point of debate ruling. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The first thing that I must address is that I am the one presiding. [Interjections.] I am appealing to you, as I am presiding ...

Hon Mtileni is standing up on a point of order. As somebody who is presiding, I don’t even have that opportunity ... [Interjections] You are the one who is telling Mtileni to sit down, and you are the one who is speaking ... Is that in order? [Interjections]

Then, on the issue of going to Hansard, I have made a ruling that I will go through Hansard.

Let’s allow hon Wana to continue.

Ms T WANA: Secondly, as I was standing here, overall is a protective clothing. That is one thing that we must be sure of. Once you put on an overall, you are signalling that you are going to do a dirty job. So, obviously, once you put on an overall as protective clothing ... [Interjections.] ... obviously it goes straight to your cerebellum ...

Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, if you don’t call bouncers today, then I will conclude the fact that you are showing favouritism. [Interjections.] No, we have. We have. Last week, they came here. If you don’t call bouncers ... I mean, she is referring to us as members who are doing dirty jobs. [Interjections.] I mean, I think she should be removed from the House. She is dirty, herself ... [Interjections.] ... if she is referring to us as people who are doing dirty jobs. I mean ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let’s allow him to make his point of order. Hon Mtileni, make your point of order.

Mr V E MTILENI: Chair, my point of order is: I don’t think, if I were you, I would allow the hon Wana to continue. In the first place, she does not recognise us as hon members of this House. She says “an old man”. I don’t know if she is perhaps referring to President Zuma, because he is the old desk in this Cabinet. [Interjections.] He is the old desk.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni.

Mr V E MTILENI: Unless she can tell us which old man it is she is referring to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni!

Mr V E MTILENI: Secondly, regarding the “dirty” part, I think she should be reprimanded for that. If you don’t call bouncers to remove her, then I will call for a neutral person. You will also be removed from your seat there.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni, take your seat! Take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon members, let’s have order. Hon Mtileni, I have made a ruling about the issue of an old man, and you are taking us to that ... [Interjections.] ... Dirty what?

Mr V E MTILENI: Doing a dirty job. So, I am ... is it a dirty job that we are doing here? [Interjections.] That is why I am saying I am challenging you to call on the bouncers to also, you know, take her out of this House. She is not fit to be here, because if she sees us as doing a dirty job, I wonder what kind of an hon member she is. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni, hon Mtileni ...

Mr V E MTILENI: Are we doing a dirty job?

An HON MEMBER: Yes!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni.

Mr V E MTILENI: What sort of dirty?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, man.

Mr V E MTILENI: No, no, no. There are two of them - the hon Mohapi, as well.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat?

Mr V E MTILENI: All the bouncers. To deal with ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni, can you take your seat?

Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, this is very serious. [Interjections.] I mean ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Can you take your seat? I want to make a ruling.

Mr V E MTILENI: I also share your sentiments ... [Interjections.] ... we are doing a dirty job.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Can you take your seat? I want to make a ruling. Take your seat.

Mr V E MTILENI: Alright.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let’s have order. It will be problematic if ... I would appeal that we refrain from words that will be interpreted in a way that some people will feel are offensive and that they are insulted, but be that as it may. I am also appealing to you, members, that whenever a speaker is at the podium, you listen to the entire context. Don’t just take a part and interpret it the way you want to interpret it, because what you are interpreting is not what was said. It’s problematic when you do that and you are making my job difficult.

No, you are not recognised, Mtileni. You are not recognised. [Interjections.] Mtileni ... [Interjections.] ... Mtileni ... [Interjections.] ... Mtileni ... [Interjections.] ... Mtileni ... [Interjections.] ... Mtileni ... [Interjections.]

Mtileni, the first thing that you are supposed to be doing to assist the House when you stand up ... Can you take your seat? When you stand up, you refer to a particular Rule. You can’t be rising, picking and choosing, and raising something without linking it to a particular Rule, and then, from there ... [Interjections.] ... No, Mtileni, no. [Interjections.] You have not even been recognised. You can’t do what you are doing. [Interjections.]

I have made a ruling. Let me repeat it. Hon Wana, I am making an appeal – not only to the hon Wana but to other speakers that will be coming – let’s refrain from something that will be interpreted incorrectly.

However, hon Mtileni, when you are making a point of order, you do have a Rule Book that will guide you that, in terms of Rule 41, this is the correct interpretation of what was said, so that it is much clearer to everyone. However, let’s allow the hon Wana to continue now. Continue, hon Wana.

Ms T WANA: Chairperson, in my understanding, I ... [Interjections.]

Mr V E MTILENI: Withdraw what? [Interjections.] No. [Interjections.] It doesn’t go down well with us. Just a simple apology, and then I will take my seat.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Take your seat.

Mr V E MTILENI: Please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Take your seat.

Mr V E MTILENI: Otherwise you call the bouncers because if we tell you the truth, you resort to that. [Interjections.] Ask the hon member to apologise, before she even continues. [Interjections.] We are not doing a dirty job here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat? I want to make ...

Mr V E MTILENI: No, no, no. Ask her to apologise before I take my seat.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Mtileni, Mtileni, can you take your seat?

Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chair ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes. Can you take your seat?

Mr V E MTILENI: No. Ask her to withdraw first before I take my seat.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Take your seat. No. Take your seat. I want to make a ruling. [Interjections.]

Mr V E MTILENI: No. I don’t expect your ruling. Ask her to apologise. [Interjections.] Not a ruling! Apologise! [Interjections.] We are not here to do a dirty job.

An HON MEMBER: No! [Interjections.]

Mr V E MTILENI: I mean you cannot discriminate against me because I’m wearing an overall.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I’ll come to you, mama. Can you take your seat? I want to make a ruling. Hon Mtileni ...

Mr V E MTILENI: But mina ... all I’m asking for is just a simple thing. Ask the hon Wana to apologise or withdraw ... [Interjections.] ... the “dirty” part of her speech. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni, can take your seat ...

Mr V E MTILENI: I’m not prepared ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): ... so that I can continue presiding?

Mr V E MTILENI: ... if you ask her. Ah, no. Then I’m not prepared to. Ask her to withdraw that sentence, the “dirty” part. Then I’ll be satisfied. Please. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mtileni, when we started, you started on a point of privilege. I was very patient. I never even disturbed you. I allowed you to go on and make your point and I made a ruling to that effect. Now, when you are making your point of order, as I am presiding, I am recognising you and allowing you time to speak. However, you must also allow me to preside, and when I’m giving you an instruction, that you take your seat. When you started from a point of privilege referring to what happened last week, and you are consistently referring to bouncers, and I am patiently giving you space to participate ... [Interjections.] No. You are not even recognised! Allow me to preside! I will recognise you when it is your turn.

Hon Mtileni, we are dealing with a very serious subject, today, and it is not only us that are dealing with this subject. South Africans are watching what we are doing and how we are dealing with the subject that is before us. Let us respect the subject and honour people that have been killed. [Interejctions.]

Mtileni ... Mtileni, I will never allow a person to call you “dirty”. I will be the first one to protect you. [Interjections.] Let’s ... Listen to the entire context of her speech, and then from there, you can make a point of order! [Interjections.] No. Let’s avoid a dialogue. I am not subjecting myself to a dialogue. You have your right to raise a point of order, and I have made a ruling. Hon Wana, can you continue? Alright. Hon Mathys?

Ms L MATHYS: Chair, on a point of order: I don’t think you are addressing the hon Mtileni’s issue here. It is very simple. We are asking that the hon member withdraw her referring to us as doing dirty work and that is why we have overalls. [Interjections.] It’s very simple. We are all here, performing the same duties. There is no difference, whether we have overalls on, or not. That’s all. It’s simple and then we move on.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me address it as you have raised it. Hon Wana, have you referred to hon members as “dirty”? [Interjections.] No! Let me ask her. She is the one who said it, not you. I am asking the hon Wana, who said it. [Interjections.]

Ms T WANA: Chairperson, I want to appeal to all of us in terms of listening to what I articulated. I am saying, when you put on an overall, irrespective of whether it is me or you, you are wearing protective clothing. That is one. I said that! Once you put on an overall, generally – whether it is you or me or whoever – you are putting on protective clothing for yourself. [Interjections.] That is one. So, to me, I can’t say ... because I am not supposed to wear an overall, because I will be protecting who, in the House, where there are dignitaries of hon members. [Interjections.] That is the question.

Secondly, I was explaining the dignity of an hon member that, in this House, I don’t think there is any person who can wear an overall in the House, in my own understanding. [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order: With due respect, this debate is definitely not about overalls. Can we get on with the cause of the day?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): I sustain the point of order. Let’s...

Ms L MATHYS: You asked the hon ... She is giving a long, lengthy explanation. At the end of the day, she said that we are wearing protective clothes because we come here to do dirty work. That is all. She must withdraw and we can move on. It is that simple. It is really simple.

Nkul V E MTILENI: Mutshamaxitulu, u le ku hlulekeni eka ntirho wa wena. U tsandzeka nchumu wutsongo lowu hi kombelaka wona. Xikombelo xa hina hi leswaku loko muchaviseki Wana a nyika xikombiso hi vanhu lava ambalaka hovhorolo, va hi tlherisela endzhaku lomu hi humaka kona. Loko hi sungula mitirho ya hina eka NCOP na le ka Huvo ya Rixaka hi ve na nhjekanjhekisano hi mhaka ya swiambalo. Loko hi ta haleno a hi tanga ngopfu hi mayelano na swiambalo, hi tile hi mayelano na leswi hi faneleke ku vulavula hi swona. Hikokwalaho, manana lava va hi tlherisela endzhaku. Va vulavula hi mhaka ya leswaku munhu loyi a ambalaka hovhorolo u languteriwa ku tirha ntirho lowu nga thyaka kumbe lowu nga basangiki. Leswi hi swona swi endlaka leswaku hi mi kombela leswaku mi va byela va mita marito ya xitatimemde lexi va xi vuleke leswaku hi ta kota ku ya emahlweni. Xana mi tsandzeka nchumu wutsongo lowo olova swinene? Nakambe, mi tlhela mi va nyika nkarhi wo tala leswaku va ya emahlweni ni ku tiyimelela. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)

[Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, you are failing to perform your duty. You are failing to do a minor issue that we request you to. Our request is that when hon Wana cite an example of people who are wearing overalls, she takes us back to where we come from. When we commenced with our duties at the National Council of Provinces and the National assembly, we debated about the dress code. Our coming here has nothing to do with clothes, but we are here with regard to what needs to be debated about. Therefore, this lady is taking us backwards. She is talking about the issue that a person who is wearing an overall is expected to do dirty work or a dirty one. This is why we are requesting that you tell her to retract her statement that she articulated so that we may be able to continue. Are you failing to perform such a simple duty? Again, you also afford her more time so that she may continue to defend herself.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Okay, you have made your point.

Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, it is for this reason ... [Interjections.] That is why, we always ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): No, I have heard it. I understand Xitsonga.

Mr V E MTILENI: As opposition members, we don’t feel comfortable when you are presiding, because most of the time, you take sides. That is your problem. [Interjections.] We will not go anywhere. That is why we always say, you cannot be a player and a referee at the same time.

Nkul V E MTILENI: Xana ma swi vona leswaku a mi swi koti ku endla swilo hi mfanelo? Ndzi kombela leswaku mi kombela manana lavaya va mita marito ya vona leswaku hi ta kota ku ya emahlweni. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)

[Mr V E MTILENI: Are you aware that you are unable to do things properly? I am requesting that you plead with that lady to retract her words so that we may be able to continue.]

It is as simple as that. Let she withdraw her statement.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat? You have made your point. I understand Xitsonga.

Mr V E MTILENI: Leswi manana lava va swi vuleke ... [Nkavanyeto.] [What the lady has said ...] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): No, I do understand Xitsonga.

Mr V E MTILENI: ... swi komba ku hi tekelana ehansi xikan’we na ku tekela Yindlu leyi ehansi. [... shows that she undermines the House and us respectively.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): I do understand Xitsonga. Don’t interpret. I do understand Xitsonga.

Mr V E MTILENI: Okay.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Wana, let me sustain the point of order that was made by hon Faber, that today’s debate is about waging a concerted fight against killing of police officers in our country. It has nothing to do with what you want to subject the House to. So, let’s focus on the subject of the day.

Ms T WANA: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, on a point of order: The debate is about that. So, where do red overalls and dirty protective clothing come in? I don’t know. So, the hon member must withdraw and then we are quite happy to continue. You cannot keep on disregarding our points of order in the manner that this House does, essentially. It is very simple. We are not disagreeing that that is what we are here to discuss. That is what we want to discuss.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mathys, maybe you missed it. I asked hon Wana whether she referred to people as dirty and she clarified that point. That is why I now refer to the topic that is in front of us. I did pose that question to her. [Interjections.]

Ms L MATHYS: You asked her. My point of order was not about whether we are dirty. You asked her the wrong question. My point of order was about her telling us that we are doing dirty work here. You are asking her a question about whether she said we are dirty. She didn’t say that. I did not raise that. You keep on undermining our intelligence here. We are not stupid.

So, all we are saying is just asked her to withdraw. She knows what she said. Everyone here heard that the hon member said that we wear protective clothes to protect our bodies, because we come in here to do dirty work. We are all here, supposedly, doing the same thing. [Interjections.] She did. You can go to Hansard. Withdraw and we will sit down. We are here to discuss brutal killing. That is all.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): All of you, take your seats. Hon Mathys, the manner in which you clarified your point of order now, allows me consult Hansard and get the proper context of it. I will then come with a proper ruling. Getting to the debate is not going to assist us. I will consult Hansard and get the proper context of it and then I will make a ruling.

Ms T WANA: Secondly, in my speech, I would like to suggest that those who kill the police must not get bail and they must do hard labour inside, so that everybody can see that the government is ruling. [Interjections.] Hon member, when you were standing here, I didn’t talk. Today, we are talking about the National Prosecution Authority, NPA. The ANC is coming from a time where the police could never be traced, even if they detained people and killed them in the cells because they were fighting for freedom. Other members who were still in the communities, other leaders, just vanished because the police of the apartheid or the police of the system were killing the activists.

I want to congratulate the ANC because everything they are doing is transparent to everybody. Even though the commission was there, the commission was ... [Inaudible.] ... on the issue of Marikana. I am appealing to all of you, when you were standing here, I did not interrupt anybody.

Killing of police, to me, when I was analysing it, is treason, because the police are implementers and our country is stable because our police force has a vision, a strategy and everything. Today, we are talking about offense ... [Interjections.]

Ndilusizi ke kuba xa ndimi apha ndithetha akukho mntu uzolayo. Lo mbutho ulwile kwaye usasilwela nanamhlanje. Namhlanje kukho abantu abema apha bathethe ngooBiko njengemizekelo, kanti thina simi apha namhlanje sisithi amapolisa ethu makakhuselwe ngokuba namhlanje asifani namanye amazwe. Awethu amapolisa enza lo msebenzi aqeshelwe wona.

Le nto, Sihlalo, yokubulawa kwamapolisa iza kwenza ukuba ulutsha lwethu loyike ukuzibandakanya ukuze luqeqeshwe njengamapolisa. Loo nto inefuthe kuqoqosho lwethu. Amagwala ke, nanjengokuba uMadiba wayedla ngokutsho, mhla kunethileyo kukhonya noomofu. Sikuloo nto ke, bantu bakuthi. Ndiyazicela ke iintsapho ukuba mazithuthuzeleke kuba le ntlungu zikuyo, nayo iza kudlula. Kodwa ke, abo baphelelwe zizazela ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[I’m worried because when I stand here and speak, no one keeps quiet. This organisation has fought and it’s still fighting even today. Today there are people who stand here and talk about Biko as an example, but we stand here and say our police officers must be protected because today we are not like other countries. Our police officers do what they are employed for.

The killing of police officers will make our youth not interested in police training. That has an influence in our economy. Cowards, as Madiba used to say, when it rains even a shorthorn cattle bellows. We are in that, compatriots. May their families be solaced because the pain they have, will also be over. But, those who have lost their conscience ...]

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson on a point of order: ...

Noko, lungu elihloniphekileyo, awunakuthi singoomofu. [Kwahlekwa.]

Nks T WANA: Noko mandilungise ngelithi eyoMsintsi yinyanga yamaGugu nezithethe zethu. Ndiza kucela ke ukuba, njengokuba thina singamaXhosa, xa kuthethwa into musa ukuva le nto ithethwa ngumntu ngolu hlobo ofuna ukuyiva ngalo. Yimamele le nto ithethwa ngumntu uyive kakuhle kuba ngomso iza kukufundisa enye into. Enkosi, Sihlalo. [Kwaphela ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.](Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Please, hon member, you cannot call us shorthorn cattle. [Laughter.]

Ms T WANA: Let me correct this by saying September is a Heritage month. Among us as Xhosas, you must please not hear things literally the way you want to hear it. You must listen to it carefully because you will learn something out of it one day. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, MECs present, members filling the public gallery, hon Wana, you mentioned that we have a police force. I have news for you, this is a police service. You see, that is where the problem lies. We too often confuse the service with a brutal force.

Chair, management within SAPS is crucial to deal with any problem that they face on a daily basis. The DA welcomes the decision by President Jacob Zuma to institute a commission of inquiry into Riah Phiyega’s fitness to hold office of National Police Commissioner.

It is with a pointing competent in the videos who are fit for a purpose where we can start tackling issues that play government, police brutality being one of them in this area. The SAPS leadership need to be honest with themselves. This is not a new problem as we heard today. The failure to bring substantially down the murders of police officers is by enlarge due to a lack of political and operational will.

Hon Komphela, you know this cadre deployment thing. I don’t know in police. But apart from your hate speech to fellow South Africans, I think is really an embarrassment for your party ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) Hon Julius, hold on! Mr Mohapi, you may raise your point of order.

Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order, I am not sure whether we were listening attentively, but I don’t remember hon Komphela making a hate speech.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi: Julius, you can’t deliberately mislead and refer to Hon Komphela having presented a hate speech.

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... yes he said, “he pointed you white people”. And you referred to it as he didn’t point to any one, but you remember or acknowledge that he said it. And that is hate speech.

HON MEMBERS: To whom?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, you don’t refer to a certain race in this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Continue hon Julius.

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... thank you Chair, I am glad you know I am right. Hon Komphela also said earlier that police in the Free State have to run when they respond. I think you can remember that. Maybe that is because they don’t have vehicles -...- They must run to respond.

It has also been mentioned that this year alone 57 police officers were killed. If more than one police officer is killed in the line of duty, we need to react and to react now.

They risk their lives on a daily basis. Their protection is fundamental to ensuring our protection. This department should focus on this fact and not use this department to score political points or use it as a job for pals unit.

Chairperson, I appeal to the Deputy Minister to tell the Minister who is not even doing police job. The Minister is always defending Nkandla and he is doing this for the whole year. I don’t know what he is doing right now. If he is not defending, he is putting out fires, is he a fire fighter or a police Minister? Please tell him to investigate the attack on police officers and account on a plan that has not worked effectively since the 10 Point Plan in 2011 ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, hon Julius, unfortunately your time has expired.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Can I conclude Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) Your time has expired.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Can I conclude? Can you do like you did with the others?

HON MEMBERS: Howling.

Mr J W W JULIUS: You allowed the other members to speak and you have warned them that their time is up or they must conclude.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) I have the same thing with Ms Wana ... [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Can I conclude Chair?

Ms L MATHYS You did it with Ms Wana. Be fair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) Hon member, hon Faber, you may speak.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order, I did not think it would come to this that I would ask you to start to be consistent as I have known you for a long time.

But I must say Chairperson that if we are consistent, it must be for all, not just for certain parties and I would please ask you to look at this with an open mind and not the mind of the ANC leading party.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) I will even respond to it as a Presiding Officer. You must observe that to all those members who are going to the podium and are not permanent in this House, I treat them differently. I have done the same thing to Ms Wana that I have been doing to Mr Julius, because they know there is a clock there.

Ms M A MOKABA (Limpopo): Chairperson, we all need to understand today’s theme which is waging a concerted fight against the killing of police officers in our country. I am talking about South Africa and not India. The National Development’s Plan decision to demilitarise the Police Service moving away from its history of brutality was a key goal of transformation after 1994. The militarisation of the police in recent years has not earned greater respect for the police or higher conviction rates. If anything, it has contributed to violence from both the police and criminals. Police should therefore be demilitarised and managed towards a professional civilian service that cares.

Deputy Minister, the Chairperson of the NCPO, the Chief Whip, MECs present here and hon members, good afternoon ... [Interjections.]

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: House Chairperson, I just wanted to bring to the attention of the MEC that it is not the NCPO but the NCOP.

UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: Awu! But what point is that?

Ms M A MOKABA (Limpopo): Thank you very much, this is why she is here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay. [Laughter.]

Ms M A MOKABA (Limpopo): No. Thank you very much, I appreciate. This vision of a South African society that is at peace with itself requires a well resourced and professional Police Service that functions within an integrated criminal justice system and enjoys the support of citizens living within communities.

Today’s debate is a staging post along this road. Today as leaders we are confronted by the reality of our resolutions and policies. The ultimate question is not whether to remilitarise the police or not but rather to examine the implication at operational level. Our meeting takes place on the dawn of tourism month and the culmination of recognising women’s month. These celebrations gave us an opportunity to reflect on the role of women working within their communities to ensure the welfare and the best interests of the nation.

We draw inspiration from those women and our Constitution to uphold the values of human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms. This Constitution which the African National Congress fought long and hard for, guarantees every citizen equal protection before the law. [Interjections.]

An UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: Including the DA.

Ms M A MOKABA (Limpopo): Yes, they are South Africans and they must know ...

... gore le bona ba ... [... so that they too are...]

... involved including the EFF and other parties. Contrary to what some may think, members of the Police Service are also humans. They enjoy more or less the same rights and protection that this Constitution guarantees to its citizens both as officials and as individuals. They are entitled to life and should thus be protected by the state and the community against the violation of this most supreme right.

Our country’s safety and economic stability is threatened by transborder cartels and organised forces that are rooted in multinational crime syndicates that seek to undermine law and order. [Interjections.] It is in this regard that we stress the importance of intragovernmental and interstates efforts to deal with this glaring contempt of this country’s laws.

In Limpopo our Police Service have to contend on a daily basis with well-organised gangs involved in human trafficking, drugs dealings, ATM bombings and other illicit trades. These contraventions are extreme along the borders we share with our three neighbours in the region. The recent upsurge in police killings in our country could be attributed to these ever growing illicit border post trades.

Police killings have once again hogged the headlines over the last few weeks and months, at a time when we thought that we had foregone this era. This has come at a time when we believed that our people understood the value that each police officer adds to a community. I must immediately indicate that a community without police officers is a dead community. Let us not for a minute ever mislead ourselves into thinking that any given community can survive for a day without the help and support of a police officer because it is just not possible.

The role that each police officer plays in a community is massive and varied. Police officers are our helpers, they are our protectors, our defenders and most of all they are our guardians against evil forces that roam our streets every day. An attack against a police officer therefore is an attack against us.

The integration of municipal police with SAPS in combating crime has proved to be effective around metros. The integration of our crime fighting agencies to reinforce our policing mandate holistically is long overdue. We must in this debate, pull no punches to ensure that our police officers and community are protected against this insanity. In walking the talk, our province, Limpopo, has over the 2014-15 period managed to establish 70 additional community police forums and 45 community safety forums. Forty six satellite police stations were reopened and 28 mobile police entities were established. During the same period we have travelled the depth and breadth of the region on crime awareness campaigns with the view of taking policing to the community.

Our crime intelligence operations must be stepped up to enable us to identify dark forces at play. It must enable us to act effectively and ensure that criminals face the full might of the law. As a country we have vigilant civil societies and individuals who are always ready to critic police operations. These statements demoralise and place our men and women in blue in danger. We have police watchdogs such as the Police Investigative Directorate ensuring that policing is conducted in accordance with the law of the land. However, I doubt whether we have a similar stringent mechanism in place to protect and fight against the killings of our police officers.

Chairperson, I have no doubt that by changing our mindset and perception of the police operations, we can protect our police officers against these attacks. Strengthening our law enforcement based on solid intelligence and full community participation we can anticipate and apprehend these criminals who are maiming our police officers daily.

It is a fact that criminal syndicates are becoming more sophisticated in carrying out their operations. They often have access to wider networks across the world and can tap into technology and cyber tools to execute their crimes and evade detection. The only solution is for our law enforcement agencies to be smarter, proactive and better equipped to counter the criminals at their own deadly games.

With every death that happens when a police man or woman is killed, the community becomes even poorer and vulnerable. Bearing in mind that one police officer is responsible for the care and protection of not less than 600 civilians. This does not even describe the amount of loss that is felt by family members in the care of the fallen police officer.

We therefore welcome the Minister’s intention to review the White Paper on Policing and the South African Police Service Act to ensure that these foundation documents respond to the realities of the 21st century and enable our officers to respond effectively to a rapidly changing environment. I am also confident that the proposed amendments to the Firearms Control Act will address the unfortunate prevalence of a gun culture in South Africa where there are too many dangerous weapons in wrong hands.

A developmental state needs to be capable, but a capable state does not materialise by decree nor can it be legislated or waved into existence by declarations. It has to be built brick by brick, institution by institution and sustained over time. It requires dedicated leadership working together with civil society and communities where they live.

Bill Gates said that “As a follower, you must know who to follow. As a leader, you must earn your followers.” In the final instance no plan or legislation or white paper can be a better deterrent against crime and lawlessness than community participation and solid relationships between law enforcement agencies and our citizens.

La ka la mafelelo ke le lebiša go MaAfrika Borwa ke re a re hlompheng dingangišano tša go swana le tše ka gore di bolela ka malapa ao a lahlegetšwego, di bolela ka malapa ao a tswaletšwego - bana ba batho ba hlokofaletše mešomong. Ka mantšu a ke re re lla le bona, mahloko a bona le rena ke a rena. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[My final word is directed to the South Africans to pay attention to debates such as these as they are about families who have lost their loved ones – those who have lost their lives at the workplace. Our heartfelt condolences to their families; may they be comforted. I thank you.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister – hon Chairperson, we cannot start like this, this is wrong. Let us go back because this is wrong.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, leave the time to me. Do not worry about the time. I am presiding, just continue.

Mr M KHAWULA: But ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, just continue.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, during the dark days of apartheid when a campaign was popularised to make the country ungovernable in the name of the struggle. Umntwana kaPhindangene [Prince Phindangene] and the IFP warned that if we make the country ungovernable it will be difficult to return it to governability again when it is in the hands of our black people. Government and all governance structures with its institutions must be respected by citizens.

The IFP is concerned that in 2015 alone, already 56 police officers to date have been killed. Of these, 25 officers were killed in the line of duty and the rest were killed off duty. Statistics point out that overall six more police have been killed than at the same time last year. Why is all this happening? We need to do a little bit of self introspection as a people and detect where things are going wrong in our country. There is a gradual growing culture of no respect for the law in the country in government circles, communities, in private institutions and in highest offices in the country the level of respect for the rule of law is deteriorating. Even where culprits are known and sometimes caught, punitive measures thereto are very weak and extraordinarily lenient. These do not effectively serve as deterrent measures for not doing wrong. hon Deputy Minister, there must be a strong link and collaboration in our country between the Police Service, the judiciary and Correctional Services. At the moment this link is either not there or very weak.

Culprits who are apprehended must be charged. Those charged and found guilty must be punished severely. Those sentenced must not easily get out of prison on easy parole just because they happen to be politically connected or are regarded as high profile people. This state of animal farm in our country that “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others” must stop. The IFP has always raised a serious concern about this practice of appointing civilians to the position of national police commissioner. This cadre deployment practice of civilian commissioners has seriously dented and compromised the Police Service as a noble profession.

To everybody’s surprise all the civilian police commissioners appointed have had highly unceremonious exists in the office but the practice is not stopping.

Kodwa kwakungabantu abanjani laba abaphethe izwe abaqhuzuka endaweni eyodwa sonke isikhathi baphindele khona futhi? [What kind of people are the ones leading the country, who keep on repeating the same mistake?]

Some of the goings on in our country have a contribution in setting up our women and men in uniform against the communities they serve. If you look at incidences like Marikana, the Cato Manor incidents and the Msinga violent searches of firearms, these have had a contribution of fuelling animosities between the police and their communities. Be that as it may, the IFP stands against the killing of police by communities. Likewise, the IFP stands against violent policing of communities by the police.

The IFP pleads for a return to the rule of law by all citizens of our country in all corners of South Africa. The SA Police Service exists in order to serve all the people of our country without favour. These are men and women, sons and daughters, mothers and fathers of their families, husbands and wives who belong somewhere. They therefore must not be butchered by criminals and for this to become a practice. It is abhorred, detested and unacceptable. Government must ensure that programmes are put in place in our communities to assist people through community structures so that police are not viewed as enemies but as servants of the people. Surely without the police presence in our communities life would be terrible. Imagine what would happen in a day, week, month or year in your own community if police were not there. It would be terrible. Police must also root out evil criminal elements which are hiding amongst them in police uniforms. In some of these tragic incidences there are some police members who themselves have had a hand against their own colleagues.

In conclusion, there must be proper training. For example, Andries Tatane would not have died in the hands of police if they were properly trained. According to the IFP, the training of police officers is very important. Thank you.

Mr S G THOBEJANE: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, MECs, hon members, ladies and gentlemen good afternoon and welcome to the Spring of South Africa. The debate before us gives us an opportunity, as a nation, to reflect back as to what went wrong. Where is the conscience of our people? Maybe we should immediately, then, draw lessons from the reconstruction and development programme of the souls.

Our people have lost the morale. We have degenerated into the lives of animals. Whether police or no police, nobody has the right to take a life of another person. [Applause.] It has even become worse when one of the important tools of our democracy, the safety of our people, is under attack by people not from outside South Africa, but by us, South Africans. I think this National council of Provinces, instead of politicking, should have taken enough time to ask if we, as the representatives of the South African public, have the time not to pay condolences to the life lost in the line of duty by those intending to protect us.

The research stated that since the dawn of democracy the level of violence against our police have been going down. From 1994 up until around 1997-98 when it went back again in the form of going back to its original seat when we were all fighting for liberation of the people of South Africa.

In that particular time of 1997-98, the then Minister, Ntate Sydney Mufumadi, called for the nation to come together and establish what was then referred to as the multidiscipline committee to look at what went wrong. What was it that they needed to do? Out of the gathering of the people of South Africa who were concerned about the loss of lives of our police, came up resolutions, and recommendations that were intended to reduce that particular scourge of killings. Indeed it worked. It worked up – going down and down – until 2005-2006. We saw it going back again. It went back and I guess none of us here, this afternoon, despite that we were politicking, have said that nobody is concerned about the killing of the police. The only thing is that instead of looking at how best we can assist the country moving forward, we start to play our politics which sometimes does not have ... you don’t need to politick every day of your life. You need to take issues that affect our people very seriously.

The issue of the killing of our police is a matter that worries all of us. For anyone to stand here and start saying that this happened because somebody is governing and is not governing well – look, it is about the morale of our people. We are degenerating. We are becoming like animals. I guess the majority of us who are sitting here were trusted by the people who said that you are the best of our country, go and sit together and look at how best can we live. Instead, we come here, undermine, disrespect and insult one another, doing things that ordinarily people entrusted with the positions we are in don’t do. Then it tells you the story, hence the killing - because if the very same higher ranks of society are unable to worry about the lives of people then it says a lot, hon Khawula. It says a lot. The reason we are talking about the killing of the police is because our people lack respect for life; respect for one another. You don’t value anyone. You only want yourself. We cannot run the country the way we wanted to, we have got a responsibility. We have a responsibility to monitor and support those who are responsible for executing policies of this government and guide them accordingly. Not to howl at one another, making a noise to the extent that nobody under normal circumstances will listen to you.

People listen to you when you advise them. People listen to you when you add value to what they are doing. They can’t waste their time listening to somebody who doesn’t add value to whatever they are doing. [Applause.] We have a responsibility. Our responsibility is to make sure that this concern of police dying becomes our concern. It doesn’t just become our concern when we talk. We have to come down and say what we can do to help those that are in the executive to make sure that they reverse the trend that we are seeing. Key amongst of all those things is to make sure that we go back to the respect for value for life. We cannot protect police when all of us – you know from both sides you may find one or two in the police service who are behaving in the manner that is not acceptable. Those are basically the people that we need to worry about, try to transform them, work on their mindset and make them start understanding that they are working for the people who expect protection from them.

It is wrong to find a policeman or woman on the wrong side of the law. We don’t expect that, but until South African society is dominated by a culture of respect, a culture of value for life, a culture of protecting everyone that we find amongst us, we will never drive South Africa to where we want it to go. It is upon all of us, all of us and all of us.

Ms L MATHYS: On a point of order: ... take a question on whether he needs a mirror in front of him as he doesn’t ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. No. No. No. you can’t ... let me ascertain whether he is ready to take a question. Don’t go on and ask the question. Hon Thobejane are you ready to ...

Ms L MATHYS: Oh, alright sorry. Alright, I withdraw.

Mr S G THOBEJANE: Yes Chair, I am.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): He is ready, you can ask the question.

Ms L MATHYS: Hon member, would you like me to bring a mirror so that you can see yourself while presenting your speech?

Mr S G THOBEJANE: Sir, is that question parliamentary?

Ms L MATHYS: ... man in the mirror, just offering assistance.

Mr S G THOBEJANE: I am sure you can hear that this is character assassination. She is dealing with my image.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Take your seat! Take your seat! Let me remind you in terms of Rule ... -take your seat hon Mathys - ... Rule 46 – offensive and unbecoming language: “No member may use offensive or unbecoming language in the Council”. So, I am appealing to all of you. Continue hon Thobejane.

Ka Sepedi ba re mpša ya goba ngwana wa kgoši e a tseba gore e ile go swarwa ke letšwa. Ke polelo ya Sepedi, ga se nna. Ga se ka tla le polelo ye ya Sepedi; ke no ba ke se tseba. Ka fao nka se tshwenyege ge ke hlagelwa ke tša mohuta wo ka ge ke tseba gore letšwa le gona. [Tsenoganong.] Ke tla go hlathollela ge re le ka peseng, re le tseleng ya go ya gae. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[The Sepedi language talks about people who are cursed. I am not the founder of the language; I am just a speaker. But I am not surprised by this kind of encounters because I know about curses. [Interjections.] I will explain it to you in the bus on our way home.]

In conclusion, I am saying ...

... go bohlokwa gore, rena maloko a Palamente, ka nako yeo re swanetšego go bolela ka dilo tšeo di amago batho ba rena, a re tlogeleng go bolela ka tsela yeo e sa lokago ka maphelo a bona. A re ba kweleng bohloko bjalo ka ge ba re kwetše bohloko. Sebaka se ba re filego sona sa gore re tle re ba emele ka mo gomme re bolele legatong la bona, ga se šupe gore bona ga ba bohlale. Ga se ra swanela go tla ka mo gomme ra tlogela ditaba tše bohlokwa tša go swana le gore re hlobaetšwa ke polao ya maphodisa ra tla ra thoma dilo tšeo di se nago tlhaologanyo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[...it is important that as Members of Parliament, we should avoid talking negatively about the lives of people. Ours is to be sympathetic towards them as they were to us by voting for us. They gave us an opportunity to come and represent them in here; that does not mean they are not smart. We should not come here and talk about senseless things and leave out burning national issues like the killing of police.]

We have to make sure that we are building this country...

... re e iše moo batho kamoka ba e dumago. Demokrasi ye e lefetšwe ka madi a batho. Nna ge ke gola, nakong yela bophelo bja motho bo sa le bohlokwa, motsaneng wa Mabulane ke ile ka bona lephodisa leo le bego le sa sepele ka khwelakhwela eupša le sepela ka paesekele le sa tleme batho ka diaka. O be a ba botša no gore o ba swere, ka fao ba mo ete pele ba ye Lydenburg - o be a dira selo sa go loka a šireletša batho ba bangwe.

Ge re ka tsošološa moya woo, ra šomiša tlhompho gona re ka iša Afrika Borwa fa gongwe gomme ra kgona go ipshina, ra lokolla le motho wa mafelelo yo a hlakago a nyakago gore nna le wena re mo thuše ra tlogela go bolela ka tsela yeo e sa lokago ya go hloka tlhaologanyo. Sebatakgomo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[... to take it to the higher level where people will say wow! This democracy was paid by bloodshed. When I grew up in the small village of Mabulane, the days when the life of a human being was valued, I saw a police officer who was not in a police van but a bicycle not handcuffing the suspects. With only the word of mouth, he was just telling them that they are arrested, and they would follow him to Lydenburg police station – he was doing justice to the people by enforcing law.

If we can revive that spirit of ubuntu, then we can take South Africa forward and we will live in peace, liberate even the poorest of the poor to get a better life. Let us leave all the senseless differences behind us and focus on useful issues. I thank you.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chair, I have taken notes of all the concerns that have been raised by members of the council and I also thank those members who contributed positively to this painful subject, although sometimes I feel like as if we are making a joke out it.

Uyayazi mna kule ndawo ndime kuyo, ndineminyaka ndisebenzisana namapolisa. [You know what, I have been interacting with the police for years.]

I started as an ordinary Member of Parliament, 16 years ago. I became a Chairperson for quite sometime if not 10 years, after which I became the Deputy Minister of Police. I understand the pain and I understand the environment that the police are working under. But today am not going to talk about that.

I just want to highlight one area.

Ngamanye amaxesha ndikhe ndicinge ukuba abanye oonondaba bagalela ityuwa enxebeni. [Sometimes I get the feeling that some journalists are rubbing salt into the wound.]

You will see currently as we speak now, there are some video footages, ...

... apho kuboniswa amapolisa ejijisana nelungu lokuhlala. [... where the police are shown wrestling with a member of the community.]

But will never see a video footage where a police is brutally killed by members of the community. Some of us who went through that process, because when a police is killed the first thing that ...

... ekufuneka uyijonge kukuba ubulawe ngendlela enjani na. [... you have to look at is the manner in which he or she was killed.]

Not even a dog can be killed the way police are being killed, but what is nice from some us is the fact that we have never seen that, ...

... siva nje kusithiwa ipolisa libulewe. [... we just hear that a member of the police has been killed.]

So I will really urge to members of the House that sometimes we must be sensitive when we deal with issues, like the issue of the killing of police. I think, I have that feeling that democracy is being abused, because one Member said here previously it was not happening and why is happening now?

Ingaba abantu bacinga ukuba le nkululeko sayifumana ... [... Do people think that we got this freedom ...]

... with a silver plate? Of which it was not.

Abantu abaninzi baaphelela apho kungaziwa mntu ngenxa yokuba babesilelwa le nkululeko. [Many people disappeared because they were fighting for this freedom.]

I think the MEC from Limpopo spoke about the amendments to the Fire Arms Control Act which is in process now. I think at this moment the NA Portfolio on Police will for public hearings where we will all have opportunities of assisting on what it is needed to have in that Fire Arms Act

Kwilungu elihloniphekileyo le-UDM andifuni ukuba ndibhoxe, le fani yakho ndiqonde ukuba andisayi kuyibiza kuba andikwazi ukuyibiza kakuhle kodwa ke noko iqela lezopolitiko lona ndiyalazi. Ndiyayithanda le nto kuba nonke xa nithetha ngemiba yemipu, niqala phaya ngexesha likaSidney Mufamadi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[I do not want to antagonise the hon member from the UDM; I cannot pronounce his surname correctly but I do know the party he comes from. I like this because all of you, when you talk about issues relating to guns you start from the time of Sidney Mufamadi.]

I was fortunate to have worked with all of them, up to the last one.

Savulela kaloku phaya ngela xesha lohloniphekileyo uCharles Nqakula, sivulela into esasiyibiza ngokuba yi-Period of Amnesty. Loo nto yenzeka ixesha elide. Sathi bonke abantu abahleli nezixhobo mabaze nazo apha kuthi. Ezoo-AK47 zakho yiza nazo apha kuthi. Sathi nabani na onompu kuye, esazi ukuba awukho semthethweni, makawuzise apha kuthi. Ingxaki esiye sibenayo kukuba xa lo mpu ndinamaphepha awo ulapha kum uye wathathwa ngumntu ongafanelekanga, uye uqalise ukungabikhosemthethweni nangona ngokuya ubuwufumana ubusemthethweni. Sowubanjiwe ke wena kuba sowusixelele ukuba unayo, ubuncinane mithathu.

Mnu L B GAEHLER: Sihlalo weNdlu ohloniphekileyo ndenza isiphakamiso sokunqwanqwada: hayi ndithi mandimlungise, inamaphepha mama. Yomithathu inamaphepha kangangokuba esinye ndiyasiphindisa. Ndithi mandikulungise mama. [Kwahlekwa.]

USEKELA MPHATHISWA WAMAPOLISA: Ndiyabulela kaloku indlela le obuthetha ngayo ngobuninzi bayo. Ndiye ndazibuza umbuzo wokuba ingaba wenzani ngayo ide ibe mininzi kangaka? Ixhala lelokuba ukuba bangayazi loo nto aba bangaphandle, uya kuba lixhoba kuba bafuna yona. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Indeed at the time hon Charles Nqakula was the head we introduced what we called a Period of Amnesty. It ran for a long time. We said that all the people with illegal firearms and ammunition should surrender them to us. Surrender your AK-47s to us. We said that anyone with a gun which he or she knows is illegal should surrender it to us. The problem we are sometimes faced with is that, when the gun for which I have a licence gets in the hands of a wrong person, it then becomes illegal even though when you obtained it, it was legal. That means jail for you because you have already indicated that you have at least three of them.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson of the House, I rise on a point of order: I feel I should correct her; all three are licensed and I am returning one of them. I feel I should correct you there, ma’am. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you for that. The way you were talking about how many they are, I asked myself what you were doing with so many guns. My concern is that the public should not know about them; you will be a victim because some people want them.]

Ke tla rata hore re tshwaraneng kaofela ka matsoho ho lwantshana le botlokotsebe. Re tshwaraneng hape ka matsoho hore re bone sepolesa sa rona ha se bolauwa ke dinwamadi. Ke nnete, ntate Komphela o buile kamoo dinwamadi di tswileng tseleng kateng. Nna ke dumela hore seo se etsang hore hona jwale mapolesa a bolawa hakana, ke hobane a sebetsa. Ha o sa sebetse, ke mang ya tlang ho o kgathalla hore a o lelekise? Ha o re o a sheba, rona batho ba sebetsang le sepolesa, re sheba sesosa sa hore hobaneng motho a bolauwe, o fumana hore e mong le e mong wa mapolesa a bolawang, o na le nyewe e hlokolosi eo a sebetsanang le yona kahoo o tloswa tseleng.

Ka nako e nngwe ba tjhehelwa sefi ke khampani e itseng. Hothwe ho a tjhwatluwa mona mme mapolesa a phallele sebakeng seo ho tjhwatlwang ho sona. Ha hothwe ho tjhwatlwa lebenkele le lenyenyane le rekisang lekeisheneng [tuck shop] mapolesa a tla ya a le mabedi ho latela bonyenyane ba lebenkele leno, athe ke sefi. Dinokwane tse mono di feta palo ya mapolesa. Empa, seo ke batlang ho hatella ho sona ke hore... (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[I would like all of us to stand together in fighting crime. We should also stand together in ensuring that our police are not killed by these parasites. Indeed, hon Komphela spoke about how out of order these parasites are. I believe the source behind the ongoing killings of the police is that they are doing their job. If you are not doing your job, who will pay attention to you or even chase you? If we could have a look, those of us who work with the police, at the cause of why a police officer was killed, we would find that each and every police officer who was killed, had a crucial case which they were working on, thus they got eliminated.

Sometimes a certain group of criminals would put a trap for them. Claiming that they are being robbed, and then the police would rush there. If they say the robbery is at a small tuck shop in the township, only two police officers will go there due to the small size of the particular tuck shop, only to find that it is a trap. The number of criminals at the scene will be more than the number of police. But, what I would like to emphasise is that...]

If we are saying that we don’t see police visibility, of course we won’t see police visibility, because we don’t have police officers and yet we are killing them. Where are we going to get them? For instances we take the Western Cape. We need police officers in the Western Cape. I was in Nyanga police station last week and the surrounding areas. We need police officers like yesterday and I am working on the issue of Nyanga and Khayelitsha. I thank you very much, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me take this opportunity on behalf of the Chairperson, the Chief Whip, and the entire leadership of the NCOP. To thank you, Deputy Minister, MECs, Chairperson of the committee, all special delegates present here. Suffice to remind members, special delegates and the Deputy Minister that we are looking forward to a debate on Thursday this week, because the subject of the discussion today is not just for compliance but is for the concern and the role that you can play as NCOP.

But you might have seen some of the challenges coming out when ever there are some proceedings. So as the leadership of the NCOP, I can assure you that on Thursday this week there is a debate hon Khomphela, the Deputy Minister and hon MECs where we will be dealing with the functioning of the NCOP.

It is a very important debate because it will assist all of us, as there some issues that must unite us as South Africans. There is no need for us to politic about them and be that as it may we thank you and we are looking forward to Thursday where we will also have special delegates that will come and enrich the debate as it has happened today.

Learning is a continuous process; dealing with this thing of rules is not an overnight thing. Sometime sitting here presiding you will be pushed, people expecting that you must collapse this thing. We don’t want that and we don’t to create a ... for wrong reason. We want to have a debate irrespective of parties, making valuable contribution. We highly appreciate the contribution made by members.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:12.

__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

FRIDAY, 28 AUGUST 2015

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

Report and Financial Statements of Vote 2 – Parliament of the Republic of South Africa for 2014‑15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 2 for 2014-15, tabled in terms of section 60 of the Financial Management of Parliament Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).

2. The Minister of Environmental Affairs

Report and Financial Statements of Vote 30 – Department of Environmental Affairs for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 30 for 2014-15 [RP 327-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Biodiversity Institute for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the South African Weather Service for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 242-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Parks (SANParks) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 143-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the iSimangaliso Wetland Park Authority for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

3. The Minister of Finance

Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 292-2015].

4. The Minister of Defence and Military Veterans

Report and Financial Statements of Vote 22 – Department of Military Veterans for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 22 for 2014-15 [RP 146-2015].

MONDAY, 31 AUGUST 2015

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and Fiscal Commission (FFC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the Public Protector South Africa for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

The Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs

Report and Financial Statements of the South African Local Government Association (SALGA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 165-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Demarcation Board (MDB) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 223-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent (MISA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 141-2015].

The Minister of Finance

(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Intelligence Centre for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

The Minister of Tourism

Report and Financial Statements of Vote 35 – Department of Tourism for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 35 for 2014-15 [RP 156-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of South African Tourism (SAT) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

5. The Minister of Trade and Industry

Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 306-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the National Lotteries Commission for 2014-14, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 and the Financial Statements of the National Lottery Distribution Trust Fund for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the National Credit Regulator (NCR) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 14-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the National Consumer Tribunal for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission (CIPC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the National Consumer Commission for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 219-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the Companies Tribunal for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the National Metrology Institute of South Africa for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 261-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Accreditation System (SANAS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 218-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of South African Bureau of Standards (SABS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the National Regulator for Compulsory Specifications (NRCS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 277-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of Export Credit Insurance Corporation of South Africa (ECIC) SOC Ltd for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the National Empowerment Fund (NEF) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 157-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the Non-Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction for the period April 2014 to 31 March 2015.

Report and Financial Statements of the Technology and Human Resources for Industry Programme (THRIP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

TUESDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 2015

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Minister of Science and Technology

(a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for Natural Scientific Professions (SACNASP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Academy of Science of South Africa (ASSAF) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the National Research Foundation (NRF) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 170-2015].

Report and Financial Statements of the National Advisory Council on Innovation for 2014-15.

(g) Report and Financial Statements of the Technology Innovation Agency (TIA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

(h) Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Space Agency (SANSA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 307-2015].

The Minister of Public Enterprises

Report and Financial Statements of the South African Forestry Company SOC (Limited) (SAFCOL) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2014-15.

Report and Financial Statements of Alexkor SOC Limited for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

Submission of a petition calling for intervention of the National Council of Province on alleged failure by the Maluti-A-Phofung Local municipality, to provide basic services to the residents of extension 5, Kestell township in Harrismit (From Mr Mokoena Matjele, Mr Zim James, Mr Lahluwe Tshabalala and Mr Sello Gatebe).

Pursuant to Rule 234 the petition is accordingly referred to the Select Committee on Petitions and Executive Undertakings for consideration and report.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

Please see pages 3311-3331 of the ATCs.

Audio

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Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 01 Sep 2015

Summary

Minutes

Audio

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