Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 24 Jun 2015


No summary available.








The Council met at 10:00.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whipery has agreed that there will be no notices of motions or motions without notice today except for the motion that appears in the name of the Chief Whip of the Council. I invite the Chief Whip of the Council.




(Consideration of a Bill of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Chairperson, I hereby move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows: That Rule 239(1), which provides, inter alia, that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the Appropriation Bill.


Question put: That the motion be agreed to.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




(Consideration of Report of Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence)


Mr J P PARKIES: Hon Chair, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members of the ... [Inaudible] ... House, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is established in terms of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act 40 of 1994. In the Fifth Parliament the committee was constituted on 14 August 2014 after the process of undergoing top secret security clearance which is a statutory requirement. The members of the Committee are appointed by the President in consultation with the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, as the case may be, having been nominated by their respective political parties.


This report is the result of Section 6(1) of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act that the committee shall, within five months after its first appointment, table in Parliament a report on the activities of the committee.


The committee was appointed in terms of that legislation. It consists of 15 Members of Parliament. The first induction was conducted with the committee. The members of the committee had also undergone top secret security clearance. Furthermore, they have interacted with the judge for interception; with the inspector-general in its activities; and had engaged thoroughly on strategic plans and annual performance plan of the department and the annual report. One of the activities of this committee was an engagement with the President on 14 December 2014.


Having considered the Strategic Plans, Annual Performance Plans and the Budget of State Security Agency, the Office of the Inspector-General Defence and Crime Intelligence, summarises the observations of the committee as follows:


The committee raised a concern on insufficient Budget for Defence and Crime Intelligence; the vetting on crucial positions within the state department; the issues that relates to the border management control and private landing strips in our country; the National Intelligence Coordinating Committee challenges relating to technology were pondered; Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence to hold interactive public hearings to foster an understanding of threats to national security; as one part of encouraging meaningful dialogue with the citizens, a plan should be devised to address valid grievances; allegations of fraud and corruption and the impact that it has on maintaining effective control standards in the borders; that improved gathering and presentation of evidence in court will improve the standards of Crime Intelligence; Defence Intelligence still having challenges in occupying a building that is not habitable; and SA Police Service signed memorandum of understanding with Council for Scientific and Industrial Research to address science and technology issues.


The following are recommendations to the House:


National integrated vetting strategy should be approved; in order to address Budget challenges for Defence Intelligence; regulations of all Acts involving Intelligence Services should be reviewed as a matter of urgency; Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and State Security Agency need to address the challenges related to companies owned by former intelligence officers; Economic Intelligence needs to be built as an area of growth and future interventions; Joint policy formulation and best practices on cybercrime is proposed; review of Intelligence White Paper and policy framework should be done as soon as possible; and a joint oversight programme on border management should be developed together with other relevant Committees.


We therefore, table this report for the House to adopt. Thank you.


Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Mr E M MLAMBO: Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, MECs, and permanent delegates, I greet you and present to you the report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on the SA Defence Review 2014.


As a committee of Parliament, the Joint Standing Committee on Defence draws its mandate from the Interim Constitution of South Africa, Act 200 of 1993 and, in particular, section 228(3). Section 228(3)(d) states:


The committee shall be competent to investigate and make recommendations regarding the budget, functioning, organisation, armaments, policy, morale and state of preparedness of the National Defence Force and to perform such other functions relating to parliamentary supervision of the Force as may be prescribed by law.


The joint standing committee had various interactions with the SA Defence Review 2014 which included intensive engagement during the strategic workshop in October 2014, a discussion of the outcomes of the workshop on 20 November 2014, a presentation by the Minister on 6 November 2014, and a briefing by the chiefs of arms of services on 13 November 2014 on the shortcomings and challenges of the SA Defence Review 2014. The joint standing committee indicated that although the finalisation and approved phase of the SA Defence Review 2014 was subjected to consultation, it did not seem like the final product, as tabled to Parliament, was subjected to further public input and scrutiny.

It was thus essential for Parliament to create an environment whereby the affected or interested parties had one last opportunity to comment on the finalisation of the SA Defence Review 2014. Therefore, additional public hearings at Parliament could add to the legitimacy and broader acceptance of the document. This would further serve to bring it in line with section 59 of the Constitution, Act 108 of 1996, which notes that -


  1. The National Assembly must-


  1. facilitate public involvement in the legislative and other processes of the Assembly and its committees.


In order to allow for inputs from the public, in particular those who have not participated in the consultation process in compiling the SA Defence Review 2014, the Joint Standing Committee on Defence decided to call for submissions on the alterations of the SA Defence Review 2014, as tabled to Parliament. In particular, the committee invited submissions on Chapter 9: The Defence Strategic Trajectory. All submissions were to state clearly the relevant chapter that was being referred to, the challenge identified and, if possible, a proposed solution to the challenge.


On 20 February 2015, the Joint Standing Committee on Defence engaged with a number of role players who contributed to the request for public submissions on the SA Defence Review 2014. Whilst a total of eight submissions were received, two declined and only three participants presented their input to the joint standing committee as follows: the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, the centre for democracy of the University of Johannesburg and University of Cape Town, and the SA Aerospace, Maritime and Defence Industries Association, AMD. The presenters responsible for the following submissions were unable to present due to prior engagements. They were as follows: the Defence Force Service Commission, the North West provincial structure of uMkhonto weSizwe, and the Institute for Security Studies.


The findings on received submissions were from the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. The CSIR supported the SA Defence Review 2014, and its submission to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence focused on the establishment of a scientific structure within the Department of Defence and Military Veterans headed by a chief defence scientist. The chief defence scientist will take over duties from the current Defence Research and Development Board and will be located in the Office of the Secretary of Defence. The duties of the chief defence scientist will include the following: advise military leadership, impact on command and control, and co-ordinating all defence-related scientific research activities from other science, engineering, and technology stakeholders.


The submission by the University of Johannesburg and the University of Cape Town’s centre for democracy centred on the need for a focus on gender representation within the SA National Defence Force and the desire for that to be expressed in the SA Defence Review 2014. The focus was subsequently placed on the need to implement the UN Security Council Resolution 1325 of 2000 focusing on the role of women in peacekeeping and the Southern African Development Community, SADC, Protocol on Gender and Development. The submission stated that gender-responsive peace and security provisioning needed to be seen as an imperative within the SA National Defence Force. The submission made it clear that the SA Defence Review 2014 provided little in terms of highlighting the importance of gender equity within the SA National Defence Force. Subsequently, the submission proposed a number of insertions into sections of the SA Defence Review 2014 where reference to gender equality could be pronounced.


The centre for the study of democracy’s submissions contained the following matters: raising the level of awareness on gender matters in the SA Defence Review 2014 and making them more pronounced; writing the SA Defence Review 2014 in such a way that it creates sensitivity towards gender imbalances; making a call to align the SA Defence Review 2014 within the SADC Protocol on Gender and Development principle of a 50:50 balance of men and women; focusing on training and recruitment that will encourage women to join the SA National Defence Force; ensuring that targets set for women were achieved; and ensuring gender sensitivity facilities in the SA National Defence Force.


The two universities further proposed additional wording should be incorporated in the following sections of Chapter 9. Point 74(d) should include “which encompasses gender equity”. Point 76(c) and (f) should ensure reference to the gender balance of 50:50 in all areas of recruitment, including officer recruitment. Steps to be taken to attract women into the Defence Force should be considered. In point 78, a reference should be included that 50% of personnel will be women. In point 79(b)(ii), reference should be made to the adaptation of warships to take female personnel. Reference should be made in point 81(e), (g), (h) and (i) to include “on a gender equitable basis”. Point 83 should include “with a gender balance of 50% of men and women in each of the categories”. In point 84, reference to the Defence Academy has to have an equal split between men and women. Points 89 and 90 should include “with a gender balance of 50:50 men and women”. Points 91(b)(i) and (ii) should include “ensure gender-sensitive facilities”. Point 95 should again include “ensure 50:50 gender balance”. Point 105 should include a gender perspective. In terms of the force design process, all steps need to ensure a gender parity approach. Point 111(a), force structure, should state “which includes equal numbers of men and women”. Point 117 should include “the defence accounting officer must ensure gender sensitive planning in force design, structure and facilities”. Points 124(a) and 128(a) must include “ensure appropriate facilities for women”.


In conclusion, the submissions made to the joint standing committee on 20 February 2015 were supportive of the SA Defence Review 2014, and no major changes were proposed. The CSIR and the AMD submissions were particularly supportive, and concerns raised by these entities refer rather to the implementation phase of the SA Defence Review 2014 than to the drafting and approval thereof. Matters related to gender sensitivity do highlight a possible need for review of some aspects of the SA Defence Review 2014. This, however, is likely to be technical in nature and should aim to bring the SA Defence Review 2014 in line with the current Department of Defence and Military Veterans policy on the matter. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


Declarations of vote:

Mr M WILEY: Chairperson, the SA Defence Review 2014 is the most important review of defence policy in more than a decade and has major implications for the future of the SA National Defence Force. We must thank all members of the SA Defence Review 2014 committee who worked so hard in producing this particular document.


However, from the start, the ANC had no intention of dealing with the review in an effective way, prolonging the process and ignoring the DA’s proposals due to their unpreparedness. The DA tabled a document containing 21 proposals for the recommendations aimed at strengthening the SA Defence Review 2014. However, when it came to deliberations, the committee was not prepared for us. In the end, the deliberations lasted no longer than about 30 minutes, and the committee rubberstamped the SA Defence Review 2014.


We have stated repeatedly that, if the SA Defence Review 2014 does not succeed, the Defence Force will not succeed. Although we wholeheartedly would like to see the SA Defence Review 2014 succeed, we are regrettably not able to support the SA Defence Review 2014 in its current form for several reasons, amongst others, affordability, the rubberstamping thereof and a flawed process which will result in a flawed outcome – a repeat of what happened with the SA Defence Review 1998. The Minister is jeopardising the success of the SA Defence Review 2014 and thereby jeopardising the success of the Defence Force as a whole. The Western Cape can therefore not support this report. I thank you.


Ms T WANA: Chairperson, the Eastern Cape stands here to support the report because, as it was illustrated, that was a very successful review. That is the first of its kind with the ANC in government. There are a lot of gaps created by apartheid. As a result, far back, there were no black soldiers. Now it is inclusive of uMkhonto weSizwe. Those were soldiers of the movement, and we managed to defeat the ends of apartheid. Thank you, Chairperson.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.


AGAINST: Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Mr R J TAU: Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, Deputy Ministers present, MECs, special delegates from provinces, in taking the opportunity to deliberate in this important institutional debate of Taking Parliament to the People’s Report, I wish to appreciate the opportunity granted. This debate is informed by the programme and the priorities of our constitutional democracy which calls us to become an activist and people centred developmental Parliament.


Section 72 of the Constitution enjoins the NCOP facilitate public involvement in the legislative sector and other processes. It further requires the NCOP to conduct its business in an open manner in holding its sitting and those of their committees in an open manner. Further section 66 of the Constitution authorises the NCOP to require a Cabinet Member or Deputy Minister or an official in the national or provincial executive to attend its meetings or those of its committees. But most importantly the NCOP, as a unique institution, it is required of it that takes into account provincial and local spheres interests and bring them to the national attention as and when they are brought to its attention.


This makes us the centre for intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance because we are able to converge all spheres of government for the purpose of ensuring seamless delivery of services to our people. To this end, Taking Parliament to the People, as a flagship programme, was designed in pursuance of the above stipulated mandate and principles, giving expression to the precepts of our Constitution and to ensure accountability and transparency.


The programme is hence particularly anchored in the principles of a freedom of expression which is a direct contrast to where we come from as a nation. As a people’s assembly this democratic Parliament has sought to make a radical shift by empowering communities to speak out on issues that fundamentally define their quality of life.


Over the past 20 years of our democratic dispensation we have witnessed a steady evolution in our participatory practices. Whereas this nation was once ruled by intimidation and iron fist or violence, today the Constitution gives our people the right to hold its government accountable through the democratic systems and instruments that are placed at our disposal.


Whereas public meetings were once burned resulting in detention without trial, today the NCOP is at the coalface of public participation by entrenching open and transparent engagement on issues of provincial and local interest. The Taking Parliament to the People’s programme is therefore a living mechanism which has significantly entrenched South Africa’s democracy in a tangible and recognisable way.


Through this programme we have also saw in immeasurable ways how the first clause of the Freedom Charter which states that “The people shall govern” has been advanced. This programme, hence also responds to the imperatives that public meetings and robust debates are the lifeblood of our democracy.


As we debate this report let us not merely lament the obvious fact that poverty is an indictment against the lives of our people.

Instead let us transcend this debate to a new terrain and reaffirm our collective role as an activist people’s Parliament.

The first measure of an impactful and people-centered activist Parliament is our ability to seize the responsibility of public participation.


This we should pursue not merely for compliance, but instead to ensure that we leave footprints of transformation and positive change wherever we go as an institution.


Secondly, the measure of an impactful people’s Parliament is our ability to ensure that, as we put names and faces to the stories of poverty that we encounter, our humanity will restrain us from becoming so desensitised, to an extent where stories of poverty and brokenness become acceptable and a norm.


I am reminded this morning, as I participate in this debate, about Charlotte Stuurman, a single, disabled woman from Bongolethu in Oudtshoorn who came to the public hearings to ask for a wheelchair ramp to be erected at her rental dwelling, when in actual fact she should have received an RDP house standardised to fit the interest of a disabled person. Instead she was placed in a rented house where she could not even access the house. She also requested that the RDP house which is being delayed now for more than two years for no apparent reason be build according to those specifications that will speak to her condition of being disabled. I am aware that there were commitments that were made by the provincial administration to deal issues of Charlotte Stuurman, but so far we have not received any progress report as an institution and as promised during time in April.


Parliament is a strategic site for the implementation of the broad objectives to improve the material conditions of the poor and marginalised. In our implementation of the broad objectives, let us remember that the finer details of development make reference to the lives of real people who daily grapple with the tough challenges of poverty and inequality. We are seized with the responsibility to act with resolute determination to change the landscape of poverty which many of us have come face to face with. This Parliament is therefore duty bound to become more responsive and people centered, as a driving force to push back the frontiers of poverty.


As we deepen our resolve to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda of our people, the Fifth Parliament must also begin to ask critical questions, particularly around the processing of reports such as what we are tabling and debating today. It is incumbent upon this House to discern that it takes more than a debate of this nature to activate radical shifts that accelerate development.


It is incumbent upon us all to recognize, that beyond the tabling of this report, lies the vast expanse of self-critique, which we must be willing engage in order to improve our performance.

This requires an assessment of the effectiveness of the NCOP’s institutional machinery, as key drivers of our transformation.


Beyond the tabling of this report we are expected as a House, and in particular committees, to actively pursue our oversight function in a manner that will make it highly impossible for anybody not to have an improvement in so far as their living conditions are concerned.


We are all aware that oversight in broad terms involves the crucial function of Parliament and its various committees to oversee and review the endeavors of the executive. In line with the Constitution, parliamentary committees are central to exercising oversight by means of amongst others, actively involving the public and public representatives with a clear focus on transparent governance.


Committees hence give effect to Parliament working for the delivery of services to the public in order to create a better life for all our people. Furthermore, we must question if we are robust enough in the way that we interpret and implement our constitutional mandate. Are we truly pursuing and tracking transformation, with a clear focus on the dates and time frames for delivery given by the executive, whether it be provincial or national?


Of course we must exercise our responsibilities recognising that effective and constructive oversight is not primarily concerned with exposing the failures of the executive, but rather concerned with ensuring better governance. Constructive oversight is certainly not about antagonising the executive with impunity. Instead, it is about stabilising and underpinning our relations with the core principles of co-operative governance in order to assist government to achieve its goals. Answers to these questions require willingness for self-criticism, and not just self-critism, but in actual fact deepening the principle of constructive self-critisism. It requires a better and deeper understanding of key policy directives such as the National Development Plan and government’s overall programme of action.


In addition to the above, we must also assess whether the institutional architecture of the institution is resilient enough to accelerate transformation and capacitate ourselves effectively for the task before us. Therefore this debate gives us the opportunity to transcend the norm and become innovative so that we can achieve radical economic transformation.


We have also come together in this fashion today to assess our performance in reducing the trust deficit that is caused by public engagements that fail to produce tangible results, like the one of Mme[Mrs] Stuurman in Oudtshooring. The clarion call before this house today, is therefore to ensure that programmes such Taking Parliament to the People become results driven with quicker turnaround time frames and maximum impact on the lives of ordinary South Africans.


When Taking Parliament to the People programme visited Oudtshoorn, a number of key challenges were uncovered. These challenges highlighted the important role of oversight in ensuring that priorities of government are implemented in order to realise the objectives of the National Development Plan. During the week of deliberations the NCOP managed to gather the following information coming directly from our people: Firstly, our people told us about the high levels of corruption in the allocation of the Reconstruction and Development Programme houses; secondly, our people told us about the huge water shortage in Kannaland and Outshoorn itself; thirdly, our people raised concern over unlawful deviation from appropriate school quintiles;


Fourthly, our people appealed, and in actual fact raised it very sharply, the lack of availability of rehabilitation facilities for recovering drug addicts in Knysna; fifthly, early childhood development sector reported that they experienced serious delays when they required transfer payment agreements; sixthly, our people told us as well that there is a lack of transformation in the agricultural sector and to the greater disadvantage of the African people in particular; seventhly, our people told us about the racism that they are experiencing at both Valithuba Adult Learning Centre and Africa Skills College, amongst others. There are still those that have been raised and so forth.


In the City of Cape Town we also witnessed how the poorest households live on the outskirts of the city, further away from potential employment opportunities, and least able to afford the costs of the urban sprawl. Most often, poorer residents have to commute longer distances and at times by means of public transport modes that are currently not optimally integrated. However, significant decentralization of commercial and work opportunities is taking place, but they can still not feel the fruits that in actual fact were meant for them to enjoy.


Almost 43% - this is the report and the information we got from the pre- and subsequent visits that were done in the city and the province in general - of Black African commuters use public transport, that is, bus and train. And about 50% of them have to travel between 30 and 60 minutes between home and work. This is in contrast with the 21,69% of our so called Coloured commuters and 2,2% of White commuters who use public transport. Look at the contrast there.


The City’ s social fabric is also undermined by social marginalisation and high levels of social criminality, especially drug and murder-related crimes. This requires concerted interventions to build social equity, foster a sense of community, and encourage residents, especially the youth, to engage in rebuilding the city as part of South Africa and not an isolated geographically located area


Hon members, the above are just some of the issues that our people have urged us to speedily respond to as public representatives. This institution is charged with the responsibility of ensuring that we do not only listen to the challenges of our people, but we also must activate our institutional mechanisms to respond faster to these processes and, of course, their needs.


May I therefore take the opportunity to conclude by thanking the community of Oudtshoorn, in the Western Cape, where the sitting of this programme was hosted in. We saw in Oudtshoorn how our people woke up early in the morning and during rainy day – more than 2 000 people gathering at the venue where we were hosted as the National Council of Provinces. They went to Oudtshoorn grounds with a greater interested of ensuring that public representatives listened to the challenges and the problems they are faced with as South African citizens; and not to play any other thing, but to raise the issues that they find to be the kind of challenges they want us to respond to.


Let us work together to make South Africa and the Western Cape a home for all our people, regardless of their colour or creed.

Let us take this opportunity and use it as a mechanisms to unlock transformation and good governance for the benefit of all our people and in particular the working class and the poor. Committees must also strive to sustain efforts that will ensure that a platform of engagement remains open with communities to constantly raise their issues as we move forward. We should continue engaging both the executive and communities in order to ensure that each and every challenge that was raised gets effectively addressed by our executive, may it be province or national. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson hon Tau, Chairperson of the Select Committee on Social Services hon Dlamini, hon members, I greet you this morning. The debate today is about Taking parliament to the People, most unfortunately, I could not attend this programme as I was in Kenya attending the UN Habitat Council.


However, I was fortunate that on my return watch the entire proceedings on Sunday on TV, and it was well-covered. As a Department of Human Settlement we were represented by MEC Madikizela mandated by Minister Lindiwe Sisulu who could not attend due to government programmes. The issues that were raised range from lack of adequate sanitation in the informal settlement areas to RDP houses that need rectification programme.


On the issues of five families sharing one toilet, this is as we know a policy at the moment, and it is clear that this policy needs to be revisited as this has been a cry in all the communities that we visited. I agree with MEC Madikizela’s notion that this policy needs to be reviewed - that there should be one family for each toilet. As the Department of Human Settlement we have no objections on this matter. And I hope that the Department of Water and Sanitation and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, would agree with us.


Many communities have expressed their frustration on the pace of housing delivery in their areas. These were the people, who raised these issues in Oudtshoorn and Bhongolethu, who were dissatisfied by non-visibility of housing development in their area while noticing that there are developments in other areas; it is a concern that we are not taking it lightly. I have noted the response of the MEC in this regard, however, we are engaging with this community and the MEC in ensuring that the matter is addressed.


Another community which raised concerns about housing delivery is the community of Protea Park informal settlement in George. Apparently this community has been here for 15 years and there has been no housing development since. I am glad to say that as we speak this community is part of the catalytic project that is underway on the department of 15 000 housing units in Thembalethu and the matter was also raised during that visit by the MEC confirming this.

The other area that raised concern is the community of Diazville in Mossel Bay. Mr Dalasile apparently moved to this area in 1991. He has not received a house and those who came long after him have received houses. He put the blame squarely on councillors saying that they are not transparent and they do not inform people about housing projects.


I do understand, hon members, that the difficulty in Mossel Bay in particular, is the absence of a housing plan. I have shared this matter with the mayor. And I was surprised when she told me that their municipality does not have a responsibility to build houses.


It brought me back to the same thing that I used to hear where municipalities were saying that housing is a non-funding mandate; and we reminded them that it is important that they put housing in their Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, because as much as I agree that it is not their funding mandate, particularly those municipalities that are not accredited, but it is critical that they are an integral part of planning of housing, so that at the end of the day they cater for people and the people have an understanding of how housing delivery will take place in their community.


This is also a matter that I raised with the MEC in the Western Cape and we have keen interest on following it because we have challenges in Mossel Bay in particular around the issue of rectification. And rectification is not going to take place if the municipality does not put that plan in their IDP. So, that is a matter which is ongoing in terms of our follow up.


However, what is of more concern in the Eden District Municipality is the fact that communities are not involved in the building of houses; they are in the dark. What I mean is that there are no housing committees or forums. In other words, people are passive recipients of government delivery, and that is a fundamental problem as information is power.


Community facilitation cannot be an afterthought, houses needs a social compact. Communities must be involved in housing projects so that they can understand the difficulties they would encounter, and also for them to have knowledge as to how houses are built and for whom; particularly the issue of compiling the beneficiary lists. It can’t be done in offices without the involvement of communities for they should know and understand exactly who comes in and when.


This will remove the uncertainty and the people would understand that houses cannot be built for everybody at the same time due to budgetary constraints. And they will understand why certain areas are prioritised over others. That is why regular feedback with communities in housing is critical.


There were also concerns raised regarding a lady with disability who has been waiting for housing in Bhongolethu in particular since 2009. I am glad that the MEC has undertaken to visit this lady. We are monitoring this process through our monitoring and evaluation unit in the department so that we ensure that issues that we raise are taken seriously.


There was also a concern raised by a disabled community member from Thabo Mbeki informal settlement. He indicated that his house is built on a slope which is extremely difficulty for him to access because he is blind. The Department of Human Settlements prioritises people with disabilities even if they live in informal settlements. We take care of them giving them access to resources to ensure that their mobility is made easier. The MEC undertook to pay a visit and addressed the issues raised.


It is our responsibility as this national department to make sure that we follow up these issues and engage with the affected beneficiaries to see if their plight has been alleviated. In fact, in all municipalities mentioned by the concerned members of the community are being engaged to ensure that their issues are resolved.


Hon members, we must understand that housing is delivered through the three spheres of government. What I mean is that we have transfer 90% of our budget to provinces. So, the implementation is at a provincial level. And those provinces must work with municipalities, but I do understand and take the responsibility, that at the end of the day, the buck stops with the national department. That is why we take these matters seriously.

We believe that the delivery of housing must not politicised. It must be transparent at all cost so that communities have confidence that their concerns are taken seriously and that they are treated equally before the law. Housing remains a thorny issue and there are many people who are in need of housing but the resources are very limited.


What needs to be done is that even those who live in formal settlements must receive government services. They must receive water, sanitation, electricity while they are waiting for their houses. That is why in human settlements at a national level we have what we call, National upgrading support system programme, Nuss, which is working with the people living in their communities to improve their conditions.


Structural defects in housing were also reported by residents in Plettenberg Bay in which water comes in through the foundation. What angers these residents is that municipal’s officials have visited these houses on several occasions, but nothing is done. Even on this occasion I noticed that the MEC undertook to visit this house but what we have done as at national level was to inform National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, which is our quality assurances institution to go and check this house so that at the end of the day we are sure so that when we do rectification of this house we do it within the housing code as required by the law.


Members would recall that complaints were raised about corruption in housing in Oudtshoorn and Bitou. And in Oudtshoorn in particular communities were raising issues of the credibility of the housing data base in which people get more than one RDP house. They alleged that municipal officials also benefit from the housing, as they own houses. They say that there was an investigation that was underway in Bitou, and they were hoping that during the process of that investigation the municipality was not going to hand over houses to people but housing allocation continued.


I must say that at the end of the day the issue of the investigation cannot stop the housing delivery, per say. But we want the outcome of the investigation so that we can determine what exactly happened in that municipality. As far as officials are concerned in Oudtshoorn the housing criterion is very clear. The people who benefit from our programme are those who earn between zero and R3 500.


Housing officials cannot benefit from our programme, it is obvious, because in terms of their salaries they earn far above that criteria. So, if there are any officials who benefited from this system, definitely the law will take its course. It is a matter that we will take up with the MEC for Cogta who is here - and I am very happy - that these issues need to be taken up seeing that, that breaches the law.


Hon members, our visit to the Southern Cape has helped us to bring to our attention issues raised by these communities that housing delivery is not a smooth process. It is faced with a lot of challenges, and there are also lots of opportunities. The resolution of these challenges needs more than just one sphere of government. It has also reminded us that housing delivery needs the participation of more than one department. Our co-operation with the Department of Cogta, Water Affairs and others is critical for us to provide adequate basic services to our people.


During our Budget Vote here in the NCOP, we committed ourselves to deliver more than 1,5 million housing opportunities during the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF. In other words, in the next five years we will deliver 1,5 million housing opportunities. We can only do so if we work together as government, private sector and organs of civil society, including Members of Parliament. Houses cannot be delivered by government alone. We need the participation of all peace-loving South Africans.


Our role as government is to create an enabling environment. It must be noted that our communities cannot be made to be passive recipients of government delivery. They need to be at the centre of the process of housing delivery. The issue of ward committees is critical, particularly committees that take the issue of housing delivery seriously. We must make sure that our people are part of the change they want to see in society, municipalities must take the issue of community participation seriously. Building of houses should be leading to building cohesive communities.


We urge all participants in this process to refrain from, as I said, politicising housing. At the end of the day what needs to be done is that we don’t want to build shoddy houses any more. We say that we are not going to be doing rectification at the national department of housing. Rectification should be done by the NHBRC, taking into account developers who built shoddy houses. They must be taking into account to rectify their work.


Houses should be built in areas through the Environmental Impact Assessment, EIA, processes. And we need to make sure that inspection of houses should start at the foundation level, at the wall level, and at the roof level. What we mean is that the inspection of the houses in each unit must be round the clock. If we do so we would be sure that we are saving government money, in terms of the shoddy work.


What is key is to find one another in this process in order to improve the living conditions of our communities for the better. We urge all municipalities to do whatever it takes to ensure that they include housing in their IDPs, because that will make it easier for national in particular to intervene when there are problems in communities around housing.


Chairperson, I raise the issue of targets in terms of the MTSF. I just want to explain how this will go about: 750 000 households will be upgraded in the informal settlements. We will hand over 563 000 housing in the subsidy band; 110 000 loans will be given to our people; and 70 000 of that will be coming from Finance Linked Individual Subsidy Programme, FLISP, and 40 000 will be coming from our Development Financial Institutions, DFIs; and 35 000 will be from the rental stock, and 10 000 ha of well-located land will be acquired to ensure that people build houses; and 50 catalytic projects in all provinces. I am happy that Thembalethu is one of those catalytic projects I am talking about here.


The last concern that was raised by our communities was around the projects in Calitzdorp, which was meant to come up with 602 units. The units that have been built this far are 250 units. The reason for is that, as much as we have infrastructure on the ground as human settlement, the pipeline, in terms of the water, the pipe is old and it’s 110mm units supposed to be 330. Municipality needs R10 million to rectify that pipe and they don’t have that money.


So, we need a discussion between ourselves as human settlement, Cogta and Water Affairs. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Mme Thandi Modise, Deputy Chairperson, Rre Tau, hon Deputy Minister Zou Kota-Fredericks, MECs, hon members of the NCOP, and special guests, thank you for the opportunity to address you today.


It is fitting that we host the debate on the Taking Parliament to the People programme today, on the eve of the 60th anniversary of the very first People’s Parliament. Of course, I am talking about the gathering in Kliptown on 25 and 26 of June 1955 that witnessed South Africans from all walks of life gather under the watchful eye of the apartheid police.


On those days, over 3 000 people of all races, from workers, students, women, youth and intellectuals came together to cement their demands for a better life.


The Freedom Charter affirmed the vision of a united, democratic and nonracial South Africa. Sixty years later, I’m glad to say that we have lost neither the intensity nor the inspiration of that watershed moment in our country’s history. Today we continue to inspire hope in the people of South Africa by the Taking Parliament to the People programme.


Let me commend the House for this extraordinary initiative that captures the spirit of the Freedom Charter and continues to ensure that even those in the most far-flung parts of our country know that we are a responsible and accountable government that listens to and takes heed of the concerns of our people. The NCOP’s visit to Eden District Municipality is a case in point.


Our government faces a barrage of criticism on a daily basis that we are not doing enough, that we do not care and that we have abandoned the very people who voted for us. The Taking Parliament to the People programme, which allows our national provincial and local sphere of government account to the citizens, is an important critical and the most measurable platform to improve communication.


In April this year, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs was honoured to be part of this process through the attendance and interaction of my colleague, Deputy Minister Andries Nel.


The Deputy Minister outlined a number of efforts that government was undertaking to ensure that municipalities functioned more effectively. The Back to Basics programme, on which I will speak a bit more later, is aimed at ensuring that a minimum basket of services is provided to households across the province, and indeed across the country.


Deputy Minister Nel also reiterated that councillors need to provide regular feedback to their communities. He also said that national government is strengthening measures to ensure that there is no political interference in municipal administration by councillors. This Ministry also undertook to conduct a follow-up visit to attend to some of the issues raised by the Oudtshoorn community.


Let me assure you that we are addressing these concerns, that we are inspiring hope and that the people do govern. Lack of communication with communities, for example was repeatedly raised, especially from the Eden District Municipality, George Local Municipality, Mossel Bay Local Municipality and Bitou Local Municipality. This issue has been taken up by the national and Western Cape Back to Basics programme team with the municipalities. We are scheduled to meet these municipalities again at the beginning of September to follow this up and other remaining concerns.


I believe that it is important that we reiterate our emphasis on the Back to Basics campaign. The national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has made the Back to Basics programme our singular area of focus over the foreseeable future.


Let me reinforce the five pillars of Back to Basics programme. Firstly, - considering that lack of communication is one of the challenges these municipalities face and was raised repeatedly - the emphasis of the first pillar on putting people and their concerns first, through constant contact through effective public platforms, cannot be underestimated. The best-laid plans are often undone by insufficient public participation. So, we really need to increase more visibility and ensure that we put people first.


The second pillar of our Back to Basics programme is centred on creating decent living conditions by consistently delivering municipal services of the right quality and standards. Here, let me repeat the words of the Executive Mayor of Eden District Municipality, Councillor Wessie van der Westhuizen, who in his opening remarks said: “Electricity for lighting stands is at over 91%, refuse removal at 86,4% and the prevalence of flush toilets is at 78%.”


While we cannot be satisfied with this, we do believe that the municipality is moving in the right direction in providing basic services to citizens. Twenty-one years after the onset of democracy, we cannot expect our citizens to still be patient to receive basic services.


Therefore, as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we are saying to the municipalities that they must deliver this basket of services. Firstly, they should clean the areas where people live, the towns, the cities and the villages without fail; secondly, remove garbage on time and on schedule; thirdly, cut the grass on walkways, parks, cemeteries, and open spaces as regularly as they can; fourthly, attend to the potholes timeously; fifthly, fix the street lights and traffic lights timeously; and lastly attend to water leakages and sewer bust timeously. These are non-negotiables because they represent the core mandate of the municipalities. All municipalities must work through this Back to Basics programme to ensure that they achieve this.


Another pillar of the Back to Basics programme is to demonstrate good governance and administration. One of the issues raised during the public hearings was the disappearance of the Public Protector’s ‘Out of the Blue’ report on councillors interfering in the work of the municipal administration.


I understand that this report has been swept under the table, unfortunately by the DA here. Contrary to what some members of the House may have people believe, we do support the work of the Public Protector as the ANC. We will call upon the Western Cape’s MEC, Bredell, to provide us with a status report on the implementation of the recommendations by the Public Protector’s report, and I hope the NCOP will also be following up on this matter.


Ensuring a sound financial management and accounting and prudently managing resources to sustainably deliver services and bring development to communities is another pillar of the Back to Basics programme. The public hearings revealed concern over the allocation of funding for Integrated Development Plans using outdated statistics. They also revealed inequalities with regard to the distribution of equitable share to municipalities and allegations of political allegiance in the allocation of funding to municipalities.


With the ANC, for example the ANC-aligned Kannaland Local Municipality only being allocated R30 million while the DA-led George Local Municipality received R300 million. Therefore, things are skewed; the scales are not equal here. The equitable share process is currently under review and the issues raised will be attended to in that review. We are concerned over these allegations of an inequitable distribution of funding. This is certainly not in keeping with the ethos of the Freedom Charter that says ‘The People Shall Share in the Country’s Wealth’. I do believe we need to have a further conversation on this issue.


Building and maintaining sound institutional and administrative capabilities administered and managed by dedicated, competent and skilled personnel at all levels is the final pillar of the Back to Basics programme. It is an area that we as national government are emphasising because of its impact on the long-term sustainability of municipalities. We would like to ensure that we clean the administration of the municipalities with the right people on the right job, competent to deliver and discharge responsibilities to the people. It is going to take us time but we will have to do and do it with gusto.


We are seized with addressing the challenges facing the Oudtshoorn Local Municipality. Even prior to the Taking Parliament to the People programme, Minister Gordhan paid a surprise visit to the Oudtshoorn Local Municipality on 20 February. In that visit the Minister engaged various stakeholders including ordinary people on the streets, AfriForum, political parties, businesses and community leaders. The audit committee chairperson, councillors, the mayor, the deputy mayor and the acting municipal manager were also met.


As recently as last week, both Minister Gordhan and Deputy Minister Nel visited the Oudtshoorn Local Municipality again. After extensive deliberations with the political leadership of the municipality, there was general consensus about the nature and extent of the challenges that are still prevalent there.


Let me be frank and say that these challenges range from political and administrative instability, nonfunctional council structures, irregular acting appointments in senior positions, water pollution and refuse removal challenges and the general breakdown in the delivery of services to communities, poor communication with communities and the servicing of the Eskom debt and a declining tourism industry.


Some of the issues can be easily resolved. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has facilitated the allocation of R9 million through the Department of Water and Sanitation to address the water shortage in the area. That is an instant and immediate action following the visit by Taking Parliament to the People programme.


To address the other challenges identified, the Oudtshoorn Local Municipality support and good governance package a Back to Basics action plan has been established and agreed to. It is the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs’ initiative between the national and provincial sphere of governments. This intervention is done in terms of section 154 of the Constitution, in terms of which national and provincial government, through legislative and other means, are required to support local government in the exercising of its responsibilities.


The programme has the following objectives: To create a functional and responsive municipality; to bring the municipality to a state of normalcy; to conduct an audit of state of services in communities; to ensure sound financial management system and processes; and to regain the communities’ trust. Indeed, as the Deputy Minister Zou Kota-Fredericks has said, we will have to also engage on the issues of the unfounded mandates, particularly the aspect of lack of accreditation on the municipality in terms of its delivery of houses.


We have an Interministerial committee that will also be looking at that issue. The MIC is the Departments of Water and Sanitation, Human Settlements and Energy, Transport, and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs that will look at the package of service delivery in all municipalities. We will have to focus our attention on this one.


The Taking Parliament to the People programme by the NCOP in Oudtshoorn was a further example of democracy in practice. The legislature has come under some negative publicity recently and only through actions such as the Taking Parliament to the People programme will our people understand the accountability relationship between the executive and the legislature and the workings of the democratic system.


This is not an end in itself, though. We understand that the nature of requests, questions or challenges raised by citizens may need various departments to work together to address or solve the problems experienced. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, through the Western Cape Back to Basics programme team will ensure that citizens who raised challenges or problems at the Oudtshoorn’s NCOP sitting will receive communication by the end of August 2015 on action points and what we will be doing. We will attend to the challenges. We will deal with the issues of poverty, inequality and unemployment. It is not an easy thing, but we are resolute.


As we mark the 60th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, we are well aware of our responsibility to keep its spirit and those of its founders alive, not just in our Constitution, but through our actions. The Back to Basics programme will ensure that we continue to imbue our citizens with the hope for the future. And come what may, The People Shall Govern! The people are governing! Siyaqhuba! Forward ever, backward never! I thank you. [Applause.]


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Agb Voorsitter, agb Ministers, agb lede, ek beredeneer die debat oor Neem die Parlement na die Mense hoofsaaklik vanuit twee hoofuitsgangspunte, naamlik die grondwetlike rol en funksies van die NRVP en dan spesifiek, die realiteite van die program self.


Neem die Parlement na die Mense is ’n program wat geinisieer is deur die Speakersforum van die Parlement en sedert 2002 uitgevoer word. Die aanvanklike doel was om die publiek te onderrig en publieke deelname te benut om die demokrasie te verdiep en te versterk. Die geskrewe dokumente verwys egter ook huidig na die feit dat die oorsigrol met die tyd vergroot het. Tans word die program bemark as ’n geleentheid vir die mense om hulle stemme te laat hoor en met die uitvoerende gesag van die regeringsfere te kan praat.


Artikel 42(4) van die Grondwet vervat die rol van die NRVP as volg en ek haal aan: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)


[Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, I am debating this debate on Taking Parliament to the People from two main starting points, namely the constitutional role and functions of the NCOP and then specifically, the realities of the program itself.


Taking Parliament to the People is a program that was initiated by the Speakers Forum of Parliament, and has been carried out since 2002. The initial purpose was to educate the public and to use public participation to deepen and strengthen democracy. However, the written documents also refers to the fact that the oversight role has increased over time. The program is currently marketed as an opportunity for the people to have their voices heard and to talk to the executive authorityof the spheres of government.


Section 42(4) of the Constitution enshrines the role of the NCOP, and I quote as follows:]


The National Council of Provinces represents the provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. It does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces.


Artikel 41(1) stipuleer wat elke sfeer van die regering moet doen en artikel 41(1)(f) bepaal spesifiek, onder andere, die volgende en ek haal aan: [Section 41(1) stipulates what each sphere of government must do, and section 41(1)(f) specifically provides, amongst other things, the following and I quote:]


All spheres of government and all organs of state within each sphere must not assume any power or function except these conferred on them in terms of the Constitution.


Verder dui artikel 55(1)(a) en (b) die magte van die nasionale Parlement tot die wetgewende proses aan en artikel 2(a) en (b) die meganismes waarmee oorsig oor die uitvoerende gesag gedoen moet word en dat hulle verantwoordbaar gehou moet word.


So verwys artikel 68(a) egter net na die magte van die NRVP ten opsigte van die wetgewende proses en volgens artikel 59 en 72 het beide die Nasionale Vergadering en die Nasionale Raad Van Provinsies ’n rol te vervul om die publiek betrokke te kry by die wetgewende en ander prosesse van die Parlement.


Uit genoemde artikels is dit dus duidelik dat die grondwetlike raamwerk vir die NRVP fokus op die verteenwoordiging van provinsies in die nasionale Parlement, met fokus op deelname in die wetgewende proses.


Neem die Parlement na die Mense is egter tans ’n program wat gekenmerk word hoofsaaklik deur publieke verhore en oorsigbesoeke waarin die invloed van, of wetgewing toegapas word al dan nie, nie deel vorm nie. [Tusssenwerpsels.] Jy moet luister, dan sal jy hoor. Julle hou nie daarvan om die waarheid te hoor nie. Die onderrigfunksie waarna oorspronklik verwys is, is egter ook nie gefokus om byvoorbeeld die publiek in te lig oor die proses van wetgewing en op watter wyse hul so deel kan vorm van die proses en demokrasie op hierdie wyse kan vardiep nie.


Wat is Neem die Parlement na die Mense dan en wat word werklik effektief bereik deur die uitvoering van hierdie program? Neem die Parlement na die Mense is in hierdie termyn so belangrik geag dat dit ondergeskik gestel is aan ’n uitvoerende vergadering van die regerende party. Die aanvanklike program van die komitees, trouens die eerste twee weke van die NRVP se hele program, is gakanselleer en moes aangepas word vir ’n dringende ANC uitvoerende vergadering in Johannesburg.


Verder is die Neem die Parlement na die Mense-program bedryf deur ‘n bestuurskomitee wie se besluite berus het op ’n tegniese span wat ondersoek gedoen het oor wat die werklike kwessies op grondvlak is. Tydens die besoeke is daar egter by verskeie geleenthede gevind dat die instansies geen duidelikheid gehad het oor wat die besoek presies behels nie. Ek was persoonlik deel van ’n groep wie se besoek ’n totale fiasko sou wees, indien die amptenary van die Wes-Kaapse provinsie nie teenwoordig was om die situasie te red nie. Ek het aan die einde van die tyd in die minibus gesit, want dit was chaos.


Kommunikasie was beslis nie effektief nie, nie binne in die Raad self nie, ook nie tussen die Raad en die provinsiale uitvoerende gasag nie. Uitnodigings na die week van publieke verhore het die provinsiale Ministers ’n week voor die besoek self bereik. Die finale program is slegs etlike dae voor die besoek self goedgekeur, buite die gesag van die programmeringsvergadering, wat met hierdie Neem die Parlement na die Mense, in elk geval ’n kenmerk was.


Gedurende hierdie Neem die Parlement na die Mense het die volgende situasies ontstaan wat bevraagteken moet word.


Eerstens, tydens die aanvanklike publieke verhoor is die aankondiging gemaak dat die publiek ooreenkomstig spesifieke sektore verteenwoordig word en daarvolgens hul stem kan laat hoor. Dit moes ek stopsit!


Tweedens, sommige mense van die publiek in byvoorbeeld Kannaland, is ingelig dat hul nie van die vervoer na George gebruik kon maak nie.


Derdens, as gevolg van die feit dat die publiek geen idee gehad het watter onderwerp op ’n spesifieke dag hanteer sou word nie, was daar dikwels niemand van die uitvoerende gesag wat sogenaamde antwoorde kon verskaf nie.

Vierdens, die uitsny van die klanktoevoer na die publiek buite, net nadat die uitvoerende gesag van die NRVP hul toesprake gedoen het, is ook ’n voorbeeld.


Vyfdens, daar was herhaaldelik gesê dat hierdie program vir die mense is, maar nasionale Ministers en Adjunkministers het die platform gebruik as ’n politieke verhoog vir die 2016-verkiesing.


Verder was daar swak verteenwoordiging en bywoning van die nasionale uitvoerende gesag gedurende die week, terwyl die blaam verskuif is na die burgemeesters wat nie teenwoordig was nie.


Laastens, die feit dat die publiek meestal skriftelike pleidooie rig waarop die NRVP geen direkte invloed het om te verseker dat die probleme opgelos word nie, skep vals hoop en verwagtinge by die publiek.


Dit blyk asof hierdie program meer die gestalte geneem het van ’n politieke veldtog ...


Mnr O SEFAKO: Voorsitter, ek wil net weet of agb Labuschagne bereid is om ’n vraag te neem.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Nie op hierdie oomblik nie, as gevolg van tyd, maar ek sal na die tyd met die agb Sefako gesels.


Dit blyk asof hierdie program meer die gestalte geneem het van ’n politieke veldtog vir die ANC op staatskoste — ongeveer R19 miljoen- as enige iets anders.


Daar is tans min bewys van die werklike effektiwiteit van Neem die Parlement na die Mense binne die grondwetlike raamwerk. Ek is daarvan ooituig dat die Neem die Parlement na die Mense-program vervang kan word met ’n andersoortige program en dat die demokratiese effek verdiep kan word deur te fokus op ons wetgewende rol – ’n noodsaaklik taak om hierdie Huis meer doeltreffend en effektief te maak. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)


[Section 55(1)(a) and (b) also underlines the powers of the national Parliament relating to the legislative process and section 2(a) and (b) the mechanisms to exercise oversight over the executive and that they have to be held accountable.


However, section 68(a) only refers to the powers of the NCOP with regard to the legislative process and according to section 59 and 72, both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces have a role to play to involve the public in the legislative and other processes of Parliament.


From said sections it is clear that the constitutional framework for the NCOP focusses on the representation of the provinces in the national Parliament, with the focus on participation in the legislative process.


However, Taking Parliament to the People is a program mainly characterised by public hearings and oversight visits in which the influence of, whether legislation is passed or not, do not form part of. [Interjections.] You must listen, then you will hear. You do not like to hear the truth. The teaching function referred to originally, is not focussed to inform the public on the process of legislation and on how they can be part of the process and deepen democracy in this way.


What is Taking Parliament to the People and what is actually achieved effectively through the implementation of this program? Taking Parliament to the People was deemed so important in this term that it was subservient to an executive meeting of the governing party. The initial program of the committees, in fact, the first two weeks of the NCOP’s entire program, was cancelled and had to be adapted for an urgent executive meeting of the ANC in Johannesburg.


Furthermore, the Taking Parliament to the People program was run by a management committee, whose decisions were based on a technical team that conducted an investigation into what the real issues at grassroots level are. However, during the visits it was found on many occasions that the institutions had no clarity on what the visit entailed exactly. I was personally part of a group whose visit would have been a total fiasco if the officials of the Western Cape Province were not present to save the situation. By the end I was sitting in the minibus, because it was chaos.


Communication was definitely not effective, not on the Council and not between the Council and the provincial executive authority. Invitations to the week of public hearings reached the provincial Ministers a week before the actual visit. The final program was only approved a few days before the actual visit, without the authority of the programming meeting, which was a trademark of this Taking Parliament to the People anyway.


During this Taking Parliament to the People, the following situations arose which should be questioned.


Firstly, during the initial public hearing the announcement was made that the public would be represented according to specific sectors and that they could have their voices heard accordingly. I had to put a stop to this!


Secondly, some people of the public, in Kannaland for example, were informed that they could not make use of the transport to George.


Thirdly, due to the fact that the public had no idea which topic would be dealt with on a certain day, there was often nobody with the executive authority that could provide so-called answers.

Fourthly, the cutting of the audio to the public outside, just after the executive authority of the NCOP delivered their speeches, is another example.


Fifthly, it has repeatedly been said that this program is for the people, but national Ministers and Deputy Ministers used the platform as a political stage for the 2016 elections.


Furthermore, there was poor representation and attendance by the national executive authority during the week, whilst the blame was shifted to the mayors that were not present.


Lastly, the fact that the public usually submits written pleas on which the NCOP had no direct influence to ensure that the problems are solves, creates false hope and expectations with the public.


It appears as if this program has taken the form of a political campaign ...


Mr O SEFAKO: Chairperson, I just want to know if hon agb Labuschagne is willing to take a question.


Me C LABUSCHAGNE: Not at this stage, due to time, but I will speak to the hon Sefako afterwards.


It appears as if this program resembles a political campaign for the ANC at the expense of the state - approximately R19 million - more than anything else.


There is currently little evidence of the actual effectiveness of Taking Parliament to the People within the constitutional framework. I am convinced that the Taking Parliament to the People program can be replaced by a different program and that democratic effect can be deepened by focussing on our legislative role - an essential task to make this House more efficient and effective. [Applause.]]


Mr B KOMPHELA (FREE STAE MEC - POLICE, ROADS AND TRANSPORT): Hon Chair, hon Deputy Chair, hon Deputy Ministers, colleagues, MECs from different provinces, special delegates, hon members of the House, ladies and gentlemen, the NCOP is not a church but it is a battle of ideas, a political terrain where there is an exchange of views.

Therefore, we cannot be seen going to Taking Parliament to the People and play but we must go and see whether the ANC has changed the lives of people. [Applause.] Hon Chair, I was in that Taking Parliament to the People programme. It was orderly and decent and fundamental issues were raised by the people in the area where I was.


Daar waar die agb Labuschagne was, was dit dalk chaos, maar daar waar ek was, was daar orde en niks behalwe orde nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [It might have been chaos there where the hon Labuschagne was, but where I was, there was order and nothing but order. [Interjections.]]


Hon Chair, the Free State expressed a word of gratitude and appreciation that we must be able to come and take part in this important debate in supporting what is a most constitutional imperative of Taking Parliament to the People. This exercise of this upper House is a very important exercise. This is the House that must take into consideration provincial and local matters of people who are defenceless, who do not have money to go to courts or to lawyers and have views, people who are unable to access the judicial system. This House has the capacity to represent those who are weak, those who do not have money and the defenceless. We must support and strengthen this House. This House must be able to raise issues sharply with different provinces wherever this House goes irrespective of the discomfort of anybody but for the benefit of those people that you represent when you are Taking Parliament to the People.


Hon Speaker, hon Chair, the Freedom Charter outlines very clearly that “the people shall govern” and that “all people shall be entitled to take part in the administration of their country.” This quote is a reminder why programmes such as Taking Parliament to the People are an essential tool for government to assess engagement with the people, assess service delivery and the needs of the people on the ground without taking into consideration that we know what the people want and yet we have never interacted with the people to know what they want. Amongst others, the programme ensures that: a co-operative and participatory governance happen as envisaged in the Constitution of South Africa; public representatives account to those who serve them and those who elected them and therefore all of us collectively must join the NCOP and go and account to the people who elected us to this important House, and; objectives of government are met. It is therefore in this context, that a series of public meetings and visits to various sites were undertaken under the auspices of the NCOP’s Taking Parliament to the People in Eden in the District Municipality in Oudtshoorn, George, Knysna is very important.


However, startling into this, there were myriads  of  issues  that were  raised, ranging from the provision of housing, ablution facilities, related service delivery and other concerns that were affecting people in that area but does it need the NCOP to go to those people to raise these fundamental basic rights of the people in that area? No.


Amongst others, the following issues can also be mentioned: The police responsiveness was one of the issues raised in that meeting. Hon Chair, my colleague, the hon Plato, sits in the Police Minmec. We have taken a decision that in the light of police vehicles that are parked in towns over the weekend when they are much needed in the township, they must not say that those vehicles are for policing a particular town. All those resources must be taken to where our people need them. There was no need for the people in that area to complain about the responsiveness of the police when such a decision was taken in the presence of all of us.


The other thing which was raised is transport for people with disabilities. Mme Stuurman raised this point. The matter of accessibility of public transport and public amenities for persons with disabilities is a fundamental right that all of us have to observe. Therefore, even the struggle that Mme Stuurman had in being able to reach Taking Parliament to the People, was an unnecessary struggle and therefore all of us must be conscious that equality cannot mean that other sectors of the community must be equal. Equality means everybody is equal; you close your eyes, black and white, disabled and not disabled. That kind of accessibility must be equal in that way.


As government, it is important that we inspire public confidence, but we need to do that by being on the side of the weak and the vulnerable and we must never betray them. We re-iterate our call that police shall be the helpers and protectors of the people. The killing of the police, which was one of the things that was raised there, is a wrong thing and is tantamount to treason because you kill an arm that protects our people; an arm that brings law and order. In our province we have Operation Penya Tsotsi. It will never happen that a police officer must carry a dummy gun and a criminal must kill a police officer. I will not preside over a funeral of a police officer killed by a criminal and yet he is carrying a gun on his waist. I will never do that. He must respond because the criminal wants to take his life, he must take the criminal’s life quickly and faster before he could even respond. [Applause.]


It is therefore discouraging that in some parts of South Africa public perception persists that the police drag their feet when they should come to the defence of the defenceless. Chair, in the place where we were, Taking Parliament to the People, the environment is not right, service delivery cannot just take place as freely and adequately as you think. There are no roads for ambulances to go and take mothers who are just about to give birth to their children. There are no roads for police to be able to police areas where people have taken the law into their hands. I think that those are things that we have to say, how do we make this situation to be okay and how do we deal with this situation so that at least ... [Interjections.]


Mr V E MTILENI: I just want to know if Mnumzane is ready to take a question.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Komphela, are you prepared to take a question?




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni, proceed hon with your question.


Mr V E MTILENI: I think that the hon member is being reckless here. [Interjections.]






Mr V E MTILENI: No. Do not worry. It is a build up to the question. I think the hon member is being reckless because he is saying that the police have a right to take life. I do not know if he is trying to protect what I am seeing here in the newspaper that the President is justifying the fact that people were killed in Marikana; that it is right because they themselves were killers. I do not know if he could be responding to the message that I am reading from the newspaper on the phone.




Mr V E MTILENI: That is my question, hon Chairperson. Is he justifying what the President is saying in today’s newspaper? That is my question.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you sir. Hon ... [Interjections.] Is that another point of order?


Ms T WANA: Hon Chairperson, how can he read a newspaper whilst we are in the House? He must be put in order.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni, please take your seat. [Interjections.] No. Take your seat. Take your seat! Hon Wana, this is a point that I will address at another time. Phones, newspapers, tablets and iPads in the House, I will address that at a particular time and not today. Hon Komphela, are you prepared to respond to hon Mtileni’s question?


Mr B KOMPHELA (FREE STAE MEC - POLICE, ROADS AND TRANSPORT): Chair, I will not respond on the President’s utterance but I will respond to what I have said that if a criminal takes a life of a police officer, that criminal cannot have a right that is above the police officer’s right. That police has a right too. However, in the midst of criminals having an appetite to take a life of a police officer, I am saying that I will not preside over a funeral of a police officer killed by a deliberate criminal who intended to take a life of a police officer. That is what I am saying and I will say it anywhere else.


Hon Chair, the need for more representative ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order hon members! Hon Mtileni, you did put your question and you were responded to. The question you put ... - no. I am addressing you – is a speculative question because you are expecting a Member of the Provincial Legislature to respond on behalf of the head of state. I think that the hon member from the Free State is within his right to respond to you on what he personally has said in the House. Let that matter rest there. You cannot expect a member to respond on behalf of the head of state. If you have a question on that, put it to the head of state himself the day he comes here. Please proceed hon Komphela.


Mr B KOMPHELA (FREE STAE MEC - POLICE, ROADS AND TRANSPORT): Hon Chair, the perception that was raised again in Taking Parliament to the People was the issue of skewed resources that were given to the people. That skewed resource perception was the one that I alluded to when I said there are no resources but they are adequate elsewhere. I have responded on how we have decided on this matter in our Minmenc that there could be no lack of resources when they are parked in a particular place especially when there is a high need at that time in the township. Therefore, this matter too, the Minister has given us an assurance that we will be able to visit this area to go and find out exactly what is happening. Because in that area and at that time, you would never get exactly what does those allocated skewed resources exactly mean. But if it means that vehicles and police officers and all those things, all of us are police officers of the Republic of South Africa. We are not police officers of George or Knysna but we work for one government, the government of the Republic of South Africa. Where there is a need, we must shift those resources and send them to where there is a little bit of inadequacy of resources. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Mr V E MTILENI: Avuxeni, naswona ndza tshemba leswaku mi pfukile. [Good morning, and I hope that you are well.]


When one thoroughly analyses the political landscape of this country and how its citizens, black people in particular, have been treated since 1994, W E B Du Bois’ statement, “a system cannot fail those it was never meant to protect” best explains our people’s plight and government’s unwillingness to deliver them to the Promised Land. We may have the best Constitution in the world, and some of the best policies in our government sphere and how they ought to operate to best serve our people may be strategically aligned, but this is only in theory.


The excruciating reality is that this government has no intention to emancipate our people, instil their dignity or change their lives significantly. Over 350 years later, the majority of our people still remain at the margins of society as landless ...


Ms T WANA: I’ll take a chance. I wanted to ask whether he can take a question.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, will you take a question?


Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He says he’s not prepared. Thank you, ma’am. Please continue, hon Mtileni.


Mr V E MTILENI: I have limited time so that’s why I cannot take questions. Over 350 years later, the majority of our people still remain at the margins of society as landless, dispossessed, marginalised, poverty-stricken, unemployed, underemployed or highly discriminated against at the workplace with no productive future whatsoever.


The government, led by the ANC, has dropped the liberation project and opted for being bodyguards of white supremacy. The very people who fought the apartheid regime have taken power from white colonialists, only to continue with the same apartheid administration and fight its own people using the very same system they fought against. All state departments have failed black people, especially those in rural areas and townships, in health care, education, transport, safety and security, access to economic opportunities – you name it.


If one were to compare the quality of services and how government programmes are implemented in rural areas and townships versus well-off communities, it would be like comparing two different countries. This is embarrassing. Governance should be centred around this country’s people; the thorough implementation of government policies; and the provision of basic services. Instead, central to South Africa’s government is making ministerial handbooks for all their worth; institutionalised corruption; nepotism; and a failure to account for anything.


As the EFF, we are of the view that our Parliament does not represent our people, nor does it prioritise our people’s basic needs. We have witnessed the abuse, including the physical removal of people who do not agree with most of the decisions taken on behalf of our people. People have tried to hold Parliament accountable to the country’s Constitution and its people, from this Parliament.


It is not enough for us to merely take Parliament to the people, and for the government to pretend as if it cares for our people and that it will improve their conditions when it will actually not. We reject the report on the basis that the whole concept of Taking Parliament to the People is a farce and an attempt to raise our people’s hopes. Our Parliament should prioritise our people’s needs before it can be recognised as an institution that is capable of bringing about any significant change. I thank you.


Mr A LESUFI (Gauteng): Hon Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, the MECs present, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, we’ll never be free until the poor are free. The only way to liberate the poor from their shackles of poverty is mainly through education. Our commitment to education should not repress any desire to liberate our own people.


Our presence here today signifies a memorable reflection of the struggle waged by the June 16 generation that became a catalyst in the history of the many struggles we fought, and those fought by that generation.


When we stand here, to fight for a free and democratic South Africa, we must be reminded of those who sacrificed for us to be free and sacrificed their lives.


There is one marksman and the most daring and celebrated commander of uMkhonto weSizwe, Barney Molokoane, who once said:


If we must die, then we must die like soldiers...I will not die running away from the police. I will not die from being shot in the back. I will die in battle, and until they shoot me in my forehead the battle will continue. The area where such a battle will occur will be razed by the burnt bushes and grass.


This was also followed by one committed cadre, Basil February, who said:


A guerrilla is one who fights to free his people from bondage and enslavement. The prospect of death does not even arise in his mind as his life will go on in the hearts of a nation that will remember him.


I’m quoting these to reaffirm my surprise like any other society that denied to have voted for apartheid. There is a new tendency that is developing that those who were in other political parties that were not established before 1994, today they are bold enough to deny that they even voted for the ANC.


This denial also made those that stand here, like member Labuschagne, to come and dictate and lecture us on the Constitution of this country and the relationship between provincial, national and local government, forgetting that on that memorable day, of 8 May 1996, when we adopted the same Constitution that she is quoting today, that we dragged them screaming refusing to sign that Constitution.


She also forgets that our commitment to defend this Constitution does not mean that we’ll abandon those that we believe need our defence. We go to these meetings like taking this institution to our people not only to listen for the sake of listening but because we value their inputs and they remain dear to our hearts.


We represent those that believe that our presence will ensure that they are shielded from poverty. We represent those that believe that when we visit them they will be in a position to get consolation because those that live with them on a daily basis have ignored their cries.


Therefore, the recommendations that come from this House are recommendation that we accept. We believe that we must not disappoint those that rely on us to respond to the issues that they have raised in the report.


Let this report be a living document rather then a document that will be shelved and be suppressed. Remember, we represent those that want us to represent them. Their voice is our voice, their pain is our pain, and their aspirations remain our aspirations.


As we meet here, we need to do so because there are some recommendations that we cannot ignore and sweep under the floor. The cries of those who believe that nonracialism is a dream, that are subjected to high levels of racism in whatever form, those particular people need our assistance.


Remember, nonracialism is not a question of choice but nonracialism is compulsory. Nonracialism is not negotiable; those who oppose nonracialism must know one thing and one thing only, we will impose nonracialism on them. We hate racism with a passion, but we are indeed addicted to nonracialism. So, our commitment to build a nonracial society should indeed be a reward to that community that indeed braved that cold weather and that rain to raise those issues that they raised with us.


We want to assure you, as the people coming from the province of Gauteng, that those who deny the movement and the issues that we have done to improve the lives of our people can do so at their own risk. Remember, those who said we’d not have the Gautrain, as we celebrate the fifth year of this Gautrain, they have shifted their denial to a new denial. Those who said that we will never build the stadia that we have in the country have shifted their denial to another denial.


Those who thought that when we committed ourselves to building RDP houses, we could not build these millions of RDP houses we have built have shifted their denials to new denials. Those who never thought that those without water would get water today have shifted their denials to new denials. Those who never thought that one million children would be in a position to get a free hot meal everyday in our schools have shifted their denials to new denials.


We can quote many things that other people came here before me to deny, that indeed our democracy was not a glorification of poverty but a triumph over poverty. We are proud as this government and many other governments.


We’ll continue to open the doors of learning for our children so that those who never thought they would study in a university today can freely study in a university. Those who never thought they would be in a position to get quality education and be doctors, nurses, engineers and many other careers can today be proud to be in those positions.


So, we want to commit ourselves as a province that we appreciate, support, and urge you to implement the recommendations of this report.


In closing, we want to leave you with this statement: Our people remain the tool that we cannot ignore. The glorification of poverty by those who believe when they shout slogans of poverty they will be heroes, we must disappoint them. One thing for sure, and one thing that will happen, is that a quality education and a quality life will happen in our lifetime. Thank you. [Applause.]


Ms N N BOYCE (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Ministers, special delegates and the Members of the NCOP, I greet you on behalf of the people of KwaZulu-Natal. We want to say from the onset that as the KwaZulu-Natal legislature, we still believe that the relevance of the NCOP as a tool and a platform of displaying the provinces is relevant; and that part of our Constitution that relates to the NCOP is one of the areas that are taking us forward in ensuring and deepening up public participation.


When we come here; we come here having been part of the delegation that was at the Western Cape at the Eden District. We came here with high expectations, Madam Chair, we were highly expectant. Our expectations were based on the understanding that learning is continuous and any opportunity for such must never be frowned upon. As KwaZulu-natal, our participation was also meant to sharpen our own oversight on the government programmes that are currently being rolled out in the province and then learn from there.


Of course, not least, we were also expecting to learn the unique clean governance that is said to be beyond any standard that South African citizens has seen in any other province except the Western Cape. Indeed, we were expecting to find the newspaper headlines that we read of alive in the people of the Eden District through quality service delivery for all. Expectations and reality remained two distinctive antithesis of our time in the Eden District.


According to the presentations that we heard, it became clear that clean governance, at least, per their standards, is not necessarily what might be obtained elsewhere in our country. Clean governance remains provision of services according to the party you have voted for, at least in that particular area. This is evident in many ways from allocation of funds by Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, to the withdrawal thereof in some instances.


The cases in point is the allocation given to Kannaland Municipality for infrastructure versus that of George, whilst we are aware that Kannaland covers Calitzdorp, Ladysmith, etc, which are predominantly poor rural areas with no necessary revenue basis and in dire need of infrastructural improvement. They were allocated a pittance of R30 million, and George, with its high revenue and everything else, were given R300 million. So, we just wondered about whatever percentage of that R300 million was going to address the infrastructural inequities in areas of Thembalethu.


As KwaZulu-Natal, even before the launch of Operation Back to Basics, we have been able to deal expressly with issues that affect service delivery through Operation Sukuma Sakhe. Through war rooms at ward level, a platform to interact weekly with all government departments and escalation of service delivery challenges are experienced, from the ward level.


Issues like access to basic services like building of houses that accommodate the elderly and the people with disabilities do not have to wait for the NCOP to arrive, but can and are raised and attended to weekly at the war rooms. For instance, the government of KwaZulu-Natal has also taken through the executive, the Operation Sukuma Sakhe by ensuring that on a monthly basis, they have an Operation Sukuma Sakhe in an identified district, where all government departments will converge and ensure that they address outstanding issues and people are able to interact with the government directly and answers are provided by the members of the executive.


Of course, that is what we call accountability and clean governance in KwaZulu-Natal. I am hopeful that if the Western Cape was to consider this concept, maybe; just maybe, some of the challenges of our people in this province were to be lessened. The ability that we hear lately in KwaZulu-Natal of Cogta to come up with a strategy of dealing with water challenges in some of our municipalities is praised to be among the positives that we continue to derive from Operation Sukuma Sakhe.


On the issue of human settlements allocation, an allegation that R10 million that was allocated to Kannaland Municipality and thereafter withdrawn by the provincial government of the Western Cape unilaterally, I think and we believe that a recommendation of a team should stand, but at least, we must have timeframes, because people cannot wait forever.

We want to say, when you look from an eye of a clean government, it means that real and clean government does not take long to figure when you are in an area where party politics were at play, in the way that municipality is being treated. If we are able to take from a poor municipality that is ready to deliver but is hindered by the province, you then ask yourself, what is expected to be a retaliation of the masses?


Of course, we know that the aim and the retaliation and the wrath of the masses must be directed to the local municipality. The people like those that we have seen during the week-long stay-in programme, whereby you find people who would be giving responses that should have come a very long time before giving them and say we are responding to people, to find that it’s a matter that was raised long ago.


Even at that time, we are aware that they might be trying to raise those issues, as they say what was happening there was a preparation for 2016. Maybe, 2016 preparation was launched a long time ago for that in that particular district. We are hopeful that the NCOP and the relevant government departments are going to assist to resolve the matter, so that the people of Kannaland do not get betrayed for the choice that they made of voting for ANC in the 2011 local government elections.


We are saying this cognisant of the views expressed by the Western Cape MEC for Human settlements at the April 2015 Govan Mbeki Awards where he suddenly, instead of addressing the Calitzdorp matter, decided to call upon the national government to rethink provision of houses to the poor and vulnerable citizens as he says it is not sustainable. Of course, we always have known that the ability of our national government to continue budgeting for social services in the midst of the current financial climate was never a liberal view, and it will never be supported from that area.


Ours remain a mandate taken from the Congress of the People 60 years ago when we said: “There shall be houses, security and comfort. All people shall be housed, slums shall be demolished and new suburbs built.” This is from the Freedom Charter, and I do not want to say that I know what the Values charter say about decent houses because I do not know. All I know is that the slums clearances in areas of KwaZulu-Natal like Umdoni, Masinenge, and Cornubia are also part of that response to the Freedom Charter.


We are saying to the people of the Western Cape, when we speak of the issues of education, can we also ensure that the transformation of the schooling system is given priority? Thank you, Madam Chair. [Applause.]


Mr M WILEY (WESTERN CAPE CHIEF WHIP): Chairperson, thank you very much for this opportunity to address you on this very important visit, Taking Parliament to the People, which we undertook.


Deputy Chairperson Tau said that the NCOP’s purpose is at the centre of co-operative governance. MEC Khomphela said that we should go anywhere and expose the truth. I agree wholeheartedly in both cases. In this particular case, we failed.


South Africa is a constitutional democratic state and therefore, public participation plays a fundamental role in ensuring an open-opportunity society for all. Embedding good governance and integrated service delivery requires oversight to make sure that government’s priorities are implemented, monitored and redressed, if need be.


The objectives of Taking Parliament to the People in Oudtshoorn from 13 to 17 April 2015 were exactly these two defining mantles of constitutional democracy – public participated and oversight.


As the Chairperson, hon Modise said in a comment in the Insession magazine in April this year about this project, and I quote: “It gives the ordinary citizen the opportunity to engage their elected public representatives on issues affecting them.” Although its objective was largely achieved in the oversight visits and although a good insight was gained as to how government institutions and NGOs performed on the ground, the same could not be said about the plenary sessions held on Bridgton Sport Ground Pavilion in Oudtshoorn.


From the outset, the planning stage, the Western Cape Legislature was concern about the choice of Oudtshoorn as a venue for this all-important annual event of the NCOP. Here, an illegitimate council with several court judgements against it was being honoured by a national parliamentary event. This was a political setup from the outset. Folly in extreme was borne out by the fact that the office bearers like the mayor, the Speaker and others were to be hosts and panellists in every session.


Minister Bapela is right, failures must be addressed. In the last council meeting of that particular council, despite the visit by the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, plus Minister Bredell from the province, they didn’t even address the budget, which was the agreement at the meeting of last week.


Only through the strongest objections of Premier Zille and the Speaker against these ill-advised actions, did the Eden District become the host and any reference to the discredited office bearer shelved. It is an unfortunate fact that the plenary still witnessed the serious politically manipulated situation when thinly disguised ANC supporters were bussed in early, dominating the microphone and witness after witness of unfiltered and unverified testimonies followed invariably against the Western Cape-led DA government.


Ironically, the public at this venue never interacted with the public representatives, because they were kept well away from the public representatives by fences and incredible amounts of security.


I personally witnessed any person wearing a blue cap or T-shirt, and there were many, being turned away from entering the main tent. Our only intervention at the higher security level ensured that this travesty stopped. Ironically, many of the witnesses could not differentiate between spheres of government and criticism was indiscriminate.


I think that we can all agree that the four overarching criticisms that emerge from this report were state dependency, request for funding, corruption, fraud and maladministration and the lack of service delivery.


Because Oudtshoorn is a Western Cape municipality, to the layman it appears that it is created by the Western Cape government. The fact of the matter is that, although the Western Cape is not a perfect province, it, according to the all the tests, whether it is a Corporate Social Responsibility, CSR, test or the Management Performance Assessment Tool, MPAT, reports of the Auditor-General, streaks ahead of any other province or set of municipalities in the Republic of South Africa. [Applause.] Those are facts that speak for themselves, unless you want to be confused by the facts.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wiley, there is a point of order.






Mr N SETSEKI: I would like to know if the member would be able to take a question.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wiley, are you prepared to take a question?


Mr M WILEY: I don’t have enough time, but thank you very much.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He doesn’t want to. Thank you.


Mr M WILEY: The link between these themes is actually quite simple and is attributed to one factor - the ANC national government. The decision to take Parliament to Oudtshoorn was flawed and a political ploy, disguised as public participation and oversight.


There is a sharp contrast between the DA and the ANC. The ANC secures votes through keeping masses dependent on the state, whereas the DA firmly believes in opportunity, fairness and freedom. We witnessed throughout the week and documented in this report, how dependent the public is on the state.


However, I wish to touch on a couple of other things, if I may. First of all, we went to Oudtshoorn and not once, in our investigative capacity that we have at our disposal, did we interrogate Oudtshoorn Local Municipality, as to how a municipality that has defied the Constitution of this country, cannot be held to account, nor did we go to a river in Oudtshoorn to see the sewage being pumped into it.


Some speakers have already talked about the potholes in the streets and other problems of Oudtshoorn, but nowhere did we actually hold the municipality to account and we were in the town.


There was another area that we completely failed to address. Some of the things that came out when they talked about the national incompetence issues were the SAPS inadequacy, alleged corruption and the lack of response, as one member already alluded to. [Interjections.] The MEC Bapela spoke about the shortages, but what he neglected to say is that, of all those police shortages in the whole of South Africa, 60% of them are in the Western Cape. How is that possible? Yes, there are lots of police vehicles in the yard at the back of the police stations. There are no drivers to drive the vehicles. [Interjections.] How is it possible that this could happen in the Republic of South Africa, with equitable distribution of resources?


Another thing that was not raised but that was raised in the one committee meeting is the police and that incredible scandal, which is being allowed to die. That revolves around that potential insurrection by the SA National Defence Force at that once proud Infantry School in Oudtshoorn.


I am a graduate of that institution. I am very proud of that institution. Yet, over the last number of years, there has been scandal after scandal at that Defence Force institution. Yet, when a general officer broke the armoury open, armed 120 troops with automatic assault rifles and ammunition and used military vehicles to surround a police station to liberate soldiers who have been arrested in the shebeen, we never asked them to account.


What happened to the saying that we must go wherever the truth needs to be sought? We never investigated that and we were in that town. And here we talk about the Defence review and the failure in that Defence review, just before this debate. We failed the Defence Force when we entered Oudtshoorn and we never addressed this. It is the single greatest challenge to our Constitution to have armed soldiers surrounding a police station and completely subverting law and order. We failed to address it? How is it possible? [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wiley, there is a point of order.


Mr E MAKUE: Chair, on a point of order: I think that the hon Wiley must withdraw the remark that he is making because he is misleading the public. We do know that there have been members from this NCOP that visited that place in Oudtshoorn.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Let us allow hon Wiley to continue. Indeed, there were members, but hon Wiley is debating and I think the members who went there will be able to say. Please continue, hon Wiley!


Mr M WILEY: Similarly, the expense and extent of the pre-visits, the blue light escorts and the obscene opulence at Bridgton were both an eye-opener and an extravagance ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Wiley, there is another member on the floor.


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I just want to check if it is parliamentary that members of the same party directly contradict each other in their debate.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will let that one go. Please, continue, hon Wiley.


Mr M WILEY: I want to take this opportunity to thank the Western Cape Parliament and government officials for both their tolerance and willingness to make a success of this project. Comment has been made to how well this project ran. Much of it is to the credit of the officials of the Western Cape Provincial Parliament who helped and they came up in numbers and with professionalism.


Only once the national ANC government puts an end to the misappropriation of taxpayers’ money, abuse of their authority and unconstitutional demeanour, can the Western Cape government be able to address the real issues that the people in this district have to face on a daily basis, so that they can have lives of value.


Until that day comes, the Western Cape government will continue to deliver to the people of Eden District as far as we possibly can within our provincial competencies and financial limitations and we have many, imposed by our national government. It was already spelled out by Minister Meyer at the plenary how much money we have pumped into that area. So, I will not repeat it.


In conclusion, I wish to say that the NCOP’s visits do not need to go this way. We, the provinces, can turn this country around by looking in the mirror, admitting our ideological folly - and I hear it continuously when I come to visit this House, where the Constitution is supplanted by the Freedom Charter, as though it is the Constitution - and build the country, based on our inherent skills, willingness to work and our pride of place.


We have done it in the past, and I wonder why we can’t do it in the future. Who amongst you are prepared to stand up and say, enough of this is enough, and we need to build South Africa? When you come to the Western Cape and you are most welcome to be here, we want to demonstrate to you things that should make all South Africans proud. But when I hear speaker after speaker from provinces that are failed states in themselves, lecturing us against the facts of their own national reports, like CSR, like MPAT, like the Auditor-General, and they cannot see the wood in their own eyes, ...




Mr M WILEY: Thank you very much.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, sir.


Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson; hon Deputy Ministers; MECs; and hon members, I am a bit disappointed. It is the first time in my political career that I hear that it’s a waste of money when you listen to the people of South Africa. [Applause.] I was brought up to listen to people, especially people older than me. However, let’s carry on.


The process of Taking Parliament to the People starts with a task team and then the first outside engagement is a previsit. After the previsit, it’s an actual gala week and after that there are follow ups. That is the process. Hon Chairperson, hon members and the rest of South Africa, part of the process is that those issues are taken up in select committees. The issue of municipalities’ finances – the fiscal issues – will come to the Select Committee on Finance. The issue of budgets will go to the Select Committee on Appropriations. That is the process, but they don’t say that to the people.


The ANC has a responsibility to lead the entire society, including all the people in the Western Cape. [Applause.] South Africa comes first – everyone, no matter how rich or how poor you are; or what the colour of your skin is. It belongs to everyone who lives in South Africa. [Applause.] We are accountable to the people and what we actually expect from the opposition is to be more creative; to be innovative; and to come up with solutions.


Ja, ons moet iets doen. Die neem van die Parlement na die mense is die vlagskip projek van die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies. Jy kan nie demokrasie in monetêre terme meet nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Yes, we must do something. Taking Parliament to the People is the flagship project of the National Council of Provinces. You cannot measure democracy in monetary terms.]

You can’t do it; you can’t. There’s no place in the world where you can do it.


Ja, ons het na die Eden-distrik gegaan en na die mense geluister. Daar was goeie stories. Ons gee erkenning daaraan. Maar daar is ook uitdagings as dit kom by onderwys, klinieke, polisiestasies, behuising, water, sanitasie, munisipale regering, ekonomiese ontwikkeling, landbou, grondhervorming en energie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Yes, we went to the Eden district and listened to the people. There were good stories. We acknowledge that. But there were also challenges when it comes to education, clinics, police stations, housing, water, sanitation, municipal government, economic development, agriculture, land reform and energy. [Interjections.]]


The Deputy Chairperson and I had a 45 minute interview on the station Radio Sonder Grense, RSG. After 9 o’clock, for 30 minutes we received 13 calls. What do you call that? It’s an engagement of Parliament with the people outside. Those issues were attended to. One issue of Dr Kotze with regard to nature conservation landed up in this House and has been referred to the specific committee. What is that? That’s not a failure. That’s attending to the issues of people outside.


Ons mense soek toegang tot die ekonomie. Ons soek toegang tot grond vir landbou doeleindes. Daar is ’n nasionale program genaamd die Landelike Ontwikkelingsprogram. Hierdie provinsie moet deel van daardie program word. Dit is nie ’n land binne ’n ander land nie. Ek glo dat dit ’n baie goeie ding sal wees as die polisie imbizos hou in die Eden-distrik want hulle het geld daarvoor in hul begroting. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Our people want access to the economy. We want access to land for agricultural purposes. There is a national program called the Rural Development Plan. This province must become part of that program. It is not a country in another country. I believe that it would be a very good thing if the police has imbizos in the Eden district, because they need money for it in their budget.]


Issues raised that we heard are captured in the priorities set by the ANC-led government in the National Development Plan. The President announced a nine point plan to boost economic growth and jobs. The Estimates of National Expenditure for the 2015-16 financial year is R1,35 trillion. The Division of Revenue referred more than R1,22 trillion to be divided between the national, provincial and local spheres of government. These allocations come from the national government – National Treasury – to provinces, including the Western Cape. National policy addressing the priorities set must be followed and implemented with the allocated funding from the national fiscus.

The Western Cape provincial Government received R38,242 billion as equitable share for the 2015-16 financial year, which is R2,6 billion more than the previous financial year. Conditional grants allocations total R10,5 billion. Total transfers from the National Treasury to the Western Cape provincial Government are R40,749 billion. National Treasury also allocated ring-fenced allocations to this province. A total of R147 million for the Comprehensive Agriculture Support grant – we think more can be done with that funding – R858,9 million for provincial road maintenance; R7,2 million for the National Health Insurance, NHI; and R1,9 billion for human settlements. When one goes to local government in the Western Cape, one finds that municipalities received R3,5 billion as equitable share, with conditional grants of R3,548 Billion.


This is how the national government is financing and assisting the Western Cape. The public must ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, go and read the Budget Review. It’s in black and white. You received the document in front of your door on the day that the Budget was tabled. However, some members chuck it away. The point is that the public must ask the question: What part of this money which is allocated in the municipal budget comes to my town where I live? And, to what extent is the municipalities’ integrated development plan, IDP, addressing the needs in my community?


Integrated development plans, IDPs, must have integrity. We agree on that. IDPs have to speak to the municipal budget and vice versa. It’s the role of the councillor to explain the IDP to his ward and the people living in that ward on how the budget and the IDP gel. The Municipal Finance Management Act,  MFMA, is very clear about the roles and responsibilities of mayors and municipal managers. The people come first. The Back to Basics programme is implemented in all provinces, including in Oudtshoorn, and that process will be rolled out there under the capable leadership of the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.


Dit is belangrik dat ons almal kontak moet hê met die mense in ons kiesafdelings ... [It is important that we must all have contact with the people in our constituencies...]


... constituencies, parliamentary constituency offices,  PCOs, councillors and members of provincial legislatures, MPLs. Work as a team. Why? So as to report to your people. What did I do in the first six months of 2015? We are going into a constituency period within a few days. Have report back meetings on all legislation you dealt with, including the issues within the Eden District.


Kannaland has a shortage of water. A total of R9 million will be allocated to drill more boreholes in the Kannaland area. This was announced during the week we were in the Eden District. Water supply must be seriously managed. Yes, we celebrate the success of the Tertiary School in Business Administration,  Tsiba, educational school in Knysna in terms of its performance, but the school needs a sustainable water supply. St Paul’s Primary school in George has a need for desks, chairs and classrooms. The Select Committee on Education will deal with that. Correctional Services in Oudtshoorn needs a teacher and the hon Prins has already addressed that through the relevant procedural structures.


During the 2014-15 financial year, the Western Cape underspent by R752,9 million ... [Interjections.] ... with R198 million underspending on social services, referring to education, health and social development. Underexpenditure in transport and public works totalled R190 million. The Western Cape has a positive cash balance of R5,49 billion and accruals of R61,9 million. Now, if you do the calculation there is still a positive cash balance. Take that money as part of your provincial programme and allocate it to the needs where they exist in communities. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


Ms S V MATHYE (Limpopo): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Chief Whip, hon Ministers present, hon MECs present, special delegates, ladies and gentlemen, receive the warm greetings from the people of Limpopo province, the home of peace, avuxheni, dumelang, ndi matsheloni, goeiedag and good day. It is a real honour and privilege for me to be granted this opportunity to make an input and participate in this important debate on the report on the recent “Taking Parliament to the People” programme held in Oudtshoorn, Eden District Municipality, Western Cape.


Before I delve into the report, one needs to quote the Freedom Charter, as this is the year of the Charter as adopted by the Congress of the People in 1955, “The People Shall Govern”. In contextualising the clause “The People Shall Govern”, it simple means that the people, the electorate that we represent, should be the ones who inform the government on what their needs are and not vice versa. Government should rise to the occasion by satisfying those needs to better the lives of our people.


Public participation is and should remain centre stage of our governance processes. The “Taking Parliament to the People” programme is a mechanism that brings and encourages active citizenry by providing the voiceless and downtrodden with an opportunity to interact with public representatives and with those who are in government. This is done in a quest to ensure that their needs are properly articulated and addressed to improve their lives and the delivery of basic quality services.


The programme of “Taking Parliament to the People” is deepening democracy and allowing the public to hear firsthand what their government is doing. During the “Taking Parliament to the People” programme in Brighton Sports Grounds, Oudtshoorn, we saw what the Western Cape provincial government is doing to and for our people. We also heard what our people on the ground are saying about the government and service delivery challenges that they are enduring on daily basis.


Notwithstanding these challenges which were raised by our people in Oudtshoorn, Limpopo is also faced with similar challenges like shortages of water, sanitation problems and issues of unemployment of our young people and drug and alcohol abuse. Let me hasten to say that the Limpopo provincial government, through its Limpopo Development Plan, is willing to address these challenges and to fast-track investment in infrastructural development which will have huge spin-offs in terms of job creation and job opportunities for our people.


I am aware that housing is a very big issue in urban provinces, but Limpopo, being a rural province, does not have a serious housing problem. Our people are building their own houses. However, we urge our government to make the environment conducive for our people to continue to build their own houses by ensuring that they have sustainable jobs and that those who deserve RDP houses are provided for by our government to restore their dignity, despite their colour or race as it is in the Western Cape. Tractors and land will ensure that there is food security.


The lamentation of our people in the Western Cape cannot go on unnoticed since Western Cape is in South Africa. We have seen the little development that the Western Cape government is doing for our people in Oudtshoorn, Kannaland Local Municipality, George, Mossel Bay, just to mention a few. We appealed to both the national and Western Cape government to move with speed in resolving some of these challenges that we have seen during the oversight visit. It cannot be that our people will continue to be treated like foreigners in their own home country, as once said by the premier of the Western Cape.


The people of Eden District Municipality are desperate for quality basic services. That is a fact, and nothing else. I do not want to ruffle feathers, but m y observation and what the people were saying during the public hearings is that there are still pockets of racism and discrimination in the Western Cape. We should all stand up against racism, because it has no place in our democratic South Africa. We urge the provincial and local authorities to put measures in place that will make it easy to report incidents and cases of racism. We have fought against it and we cannot allow it to rear its ugly head anywhere in this country or in any institution of government.


In conclusion, having been a participant in the “Taking Parliament to the People” programme, allow me to clearly indicate without reservations that that programme was an overwhelming success withstanding the absence of some members of Cabinet and some members of the Western Cape government. They missed an opportunity to account directly to the people and to share with the people the plans that have been put in place to address the challenges relating to service delivery. They also missed the articulation of the aspirations and interests of the people.


I support the report and hope that all the commitments and intervention strategies made by both national and provincial governments during the programme will be implemented to the letter. I thank you, God Bless South Africa. Inkomu. [[Applause.]


Mr W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA PROVINCE): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Chairperson, chairperson and hon members of the portfolio committee relevant, members of the NCOP, Ministers and Deputy Minister present here, members of the executive councils from the provinces, unfortunately the DA might not be accommodated, unless they now align themselves correctly, distinguished guests, thobela. [I greet you.]


The greatest enemy of any individual or government is the know-it-all attitude and a holier-than-thou art attitude, which has been displayed by the DA in the Western Cape. Be warned however and therefore, never to fall into the ailment of a super-race syndrome that was displayed by Adolf Hitler of Germany then.


Mr T MADILENG (MPHUMALANNGA): Muṱhomphei, vhanwe vhathu vha amba mbuno fhedzi musi vho eḓela. [Hon Chairperson, some people talk facts only when they are asleep.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Madileng, hon Madileng, there is a point of order. Can you please take your seat?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is that: I understood from the hon member that he was comparing the Western Cape to Adolf Hitler and his regime. I do not take kindly to that and I ask the hon member to withdraw.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen, I heard what the hon member said, I want to look at Hansard and I will rule on that matter.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, please continue. Hon members, I will rule. I am presiding, give me that space. Please proceed, hon Madileng.


Muṱhomphei Chairperson, zwino ndi khou amba Tshivenḓa. Tshifhinga tshothe vha rasa u fana na gokoko. [Hon, now I am talking Tshivenḓa. Every time they make noise like an empty vessel.]


Hon Mtileni must take this message well to the so called commander in chief, CIC, who outclasses the dictators and fascists of the kind of Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, just to mention but a few. [Applause.]


Rena bjale ka ANC re sa koropa le go swiela matlakala a bona. Mohlomongwe Kgorotsheko ya Bosenyi ya Boditšhabatšhaba e swanetše go tla mo e tle e ba tšee, ka gore ditsela le maporogo ale ba a agilego kua Limpopo a sa bolaya batho letšatši ka letšatši. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)


[The ANC is still cleaning their mess. Maybe they must be arrested and taken to the International Criminal Court, because people die on the roads they built on a daily basis.]


They must pay back the money that they stole and not only stole but owe the poor people of Limpopo. They must look at themselves and tell the nation and the world how corrupt and very corrupt they are. Hon Mtileni must go and read Psalm 37:1 – 8. Just in case he cannot read because of time, it says just to give a synopsis, “Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret ... it leads only to evil.”


The programme of Taking Parliament to the People of Oudtshoorn in Eden District Municipality of the Western Cape Province on 13 to 17 April was a progressively, progressive, interactive, consultative and transparent activity that aligns itself with, “The people shall govern” posture as enshrined in the Freedom Charter. It is therefore not surprising that the DA should develop rash on their skin when the truth about our people’s plight is been given attention to. It is their nature, that is, what the DA stands for, negativity and opposition programmed to oppose everything and anything ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Madileng, hon Madileng, there is a point of order. Please take your seat. Hon Van Lingen.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is that: Is it parliamentary for the hon member to say the DA has developed rash on its skin? [Laughter.] Can you rule on that please? I think it is certainly not parliamentary and if the hon has a rash he must not broadcast it in this House.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members! It is a figure of speech Ma’m I will allow it. [Interjections.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Then I must call the hon member a puppet. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen, I will allow it, the hon member may be speaking in English and thinking in vernacular when he refers to the DA developing rash on the skin. That is goose pimples that he is referring to. Hon Madileng, it might be prudent not to refer to rash on a party’s skin. Please continue.


Mr W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA PROVINCE): Thank you, hon Chairperson, semantically that has been proverbial however, if I have to withdraw that as per your instruction, with dew respect. Hon Chair, I honestly feel pity, for the previously disadvantaged individual, PDI,... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Madileng, please take your seat. Hon Smit.


Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. The hon member is now sitting, but before when you asked him to sit down he did not adhere. And I am just asking the hon member to please adhere to that.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Hon Madileng, please take instructions from the Chair. Can you please proceed.


Mr W T MADILENG MPUMALANGA CHAIRPERSON - EDUCATION, SPORT, CULTURE & RECREATION: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I feel pity for the previously disadvantaged individual, PDI, which came out as a result from the conference held in Port Elizabeth.


In Afrikaans sê ons, die mense het die vleis geëet en daarna die wit beentjie aan die arme leier gegee. Hy is druk besig om die been te probeer versier. Ongelukkig is dit onmoontlik om die been weer te versier ... om die vleis weer terug aan die been te sit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[In Afrikaans we say that the people ate the meat and then gave the little white bone to the poor leader. He is very busy trying to garnish the bone. Unfortunately, it is impossible to garnish the bone again ... to put the meat back on the bone.]


Mr W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA PROVINCE): Hon Chair, the DA must wake up from their deep sleep. It must wake up. We will tell the truth and shame the devil. The poor young man must wake up from his deep sleep himself. The popular participation of the people in the process of development and with special focus on the poor and the marginalised ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Madileng, please take your seat please. Hon Smit.


Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I am standing on a point of clarity. I would like to know the young man that must wake up, the hon member is referring to. And if the hon member is referring to myself who made a comment earlier, then he must withdraw.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir. Hon Madileng, the whole House does not know who you were referring to. Maybe you want to clarify and continue with your speech.


Mr W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA PROVINCE): Hon Chairperson, I was not referring to the hon member who raised a concern. As the ANC-led government we seek to mobilise and unite all South Africans around this common vision of building a South Africa that belongs to all who live in it. Where people on the ground are listened to ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Madileng, can you please take your seat, sir. A point of order, hon Mlambo?


Mr E M MLAMBO: Yes, hon Chairperson. I have just overheard hon Van Lingen saying I will call you a bobbejaan. [Baboon.] [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members! Hon Van Lingen.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the hon member at the podium

made a certain statement, and then withdrew by saying that he was not referring to the member who raised the objection. And I said, this member is playing with political words like Langenhoven did when he said, “Half of the House won’t be baboons ... ” inferring that the other half are baboons. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members. I only heard the word bobbejane. [baboons.]


Nee, nee, gee vir my ’n kans om te praat, asseblief. [No, no, give me a chance to speak, please.]


I did not hear the whole sentence and therefore only got the word bobbejane. I am sure that we will not get that on Hansard because that mic was not on. What we must do as hon members, is to take the hon member Van Lingen at her word to say that she was quoting Langenhoven. The hon member did not withdraw when he was asked by the hon Smit whether he was referring to him. He said, “I did not withdraw to him.” So, he did not tell us who he was referring to, but did not make any withdrawal.


Hon members, it does make it a little bit difficult if hon members, firstly, do not behave as though all of us are people of integrity and we are honourable. It should be enough for hon members to explain themselves. We are all adults. We should not be scared to say this is what I meant. And that is why I am going to say, we must take that the hon member was really citing a quotation of Langenhoven and leave it at that. Any other explanation would mean that we are now getting beyond the depth that we want to drag this House into. Therefore, we are going to continue with this debate in the sense that we are all honourable, people of integrity and above all we respect this institution. Hon Madileng.

Mr W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA PROVINCE): Laughter is the best medicine. [Interjections.]




Mr W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA PROVINCE): Hon Chairperson, we are guided by the Freedom Charter that has been adopted at Kliptown in 1955, which says the following, amongst others, and I quote, “All people be entitled to take part in the administration of the country. The rights of the people shall be the same, regardless of race, colour or sex.”


The programme of Taking Parliament to the People is one of the fundamental values that directly involve the people of South Africa in governing this country by continuously making their voices to be heard, and together, making service delivery to work for our people. We, as the people of Mpumalanga - the people from the place where the sun rises, the place where when the sun rises, we fold our sleeves and work very hard - support and stand by this report.


The Former President of this country, Tata Nelson Mandela said the following, and I quote, “The great lesson of our time is that no regime can survive if it acts above the heads of the ordinary citizens of the country.” It is therefore only through unity of purpose that we shall enable South Africans to become more active in our own development.

Amongst other things that were picked up at Oudtshoorn, were the ordinary and the obvious challenges that are eminent in all the provinces of our country including the Western Cape. The issues of water, electricity challenges, overpopulation, overcrowded classrooms and the issues of under-resource in terms of human capital and human resources and housing, but most importantly the challenge of the former skewed spatial planning of apartheid is still prevalent in the Western Cape.


The scourge and the scars of colonialism and apartheid are still there. And now what is more surprising and saddening is when the people stand up to defend when we say let us come together and put our heads together ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Madileng, hon Madileng take your seat please. Hon Van Lingen?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is that: The hon member is misleading this House. The Western Cape and specifically Cape Town is the only city in the country where they specifically address racism openly, publicly and through all the resources. The hon member cannot label this area for racism. If he wants to be a racist he must speak for himself.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen that was not a point of order. Therefore, I am ruling you out. Hon Madileng, please continue,


Hon W T MADILENG (MPUMALANGA): Ka Sepedi sa gešo re re nnete e a baba. [Tšhwahlelo.] [The truth hurts.]


In English, speak the truth unreservedly so, and it shall set you free. The truth shall always prevail. No amount of lies can detract people from knowing the truth. One day is one day. The 13 to 17 April were the days on which the truth was revealed.


The observations and findings are showing that. Whilst we want the positive signs in terms of finding out and recommending what should be done as the ANC-led government we are at work and we will continue leading. Siyasebenza, siyaqhuba. [We are working and moving forward.]


We have made progress in the first 21 years of democracy in eradicating the legacy of more than 360 years of colonialism and apartheid. We will always speak about these things until we reach the 360 years mark. Until that time people must bruise themselves, fasten the seat belts. Bambelela siyajika. [Hold on we are taking a turn.] [Applause.]


The ANC will always find resonance to the people of South Africa as a tried and tested organisation, and in its January 8 statement of 2014 the following was said, and I quote:


The ANC will renew our peoples’ contract with the nation and all activists must be at the forefront of sharing the good story of South Africa’s progress with our people. This ANC has the experience and drive to move our country forward and our members must spread our pledge to all corners of this country.


In conclusion, I want to remind this House that it was only Van der Westhuisen who stayed in driedonkiesbelwejakalsfonteinsberg farm, who got 10km of Eskom electricity. This ANC-led government turned the tide around and even gave to the Reconstruction Development Programme, RDP, houses the people in the poor rural areas and the townships. [Applause.] Today they blame us for water. They created Pienaarsrivier Dam, they created Waterval Boven, nee, [No.] they created Witbank Dam, Roodeplaat Dam, to name them and I can go on and on and on. They never created Skilpadfontein dam, never created Stilfontein dam and they never created kafirfontein dam because these were the names given to the reservoirs and cheap labour to the then demagogues. “Basigandelela”: ngesiNdebele. [They oppressed us, in isiNdebele.] But now the time that we give water to everybody in South Africa, that we give electricity to everybody and now it cannot cover because we are a government at work. [Applause.] Medupi, Kusile - we are getting there to ensure that everybody this country gets electricity. Thobela, ke a leboga. [I thank you.] [[Time expired.] [Applause.]


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Ministers, the IFP is not going to get caught up in this ANC-DA battle. [Laughter.] The service delivery issues of South Africa are not about the ANC-DA, they are about the people of South Africa. That is what the IFP is going to do here.


For the previsits of Taking Parliament to the People, I was in the delegation that went to Kannaland Municipality, led by the hon Nyambi, the House Chairperson. Noticeably, the mayor and the municipal manager had both disappeared for the entire time that we were there in Kannaland. Cllr Anthonie-Phillip, the deputy mayor, was with us all the time. Kannaland has a total of seven councillors, four ward councillors and three PR councillors. It is governed by a coalition, led by a local organisation.


The community organisation office is doing a good job and a commendable service to the people of Vanrhynsdorp. They are running a community project which includes a crèche at the community hall, aftercare, a feeding scheme and a sewing project. Most of these are funded by the provincial department of social development. There is also a small library, but it is funded by the municipality. The community centre in which they are operating is not maintained by public works – this remains a grey area which needs to be attended to, hon Deputy Ministers.


There are two Municipal Infrastructure Grant-funded projects in town: Eradication of the bucket system and the installation of waterborn toilet systems to the tune of R5 million; and the paving of roads to the tune of R2 million. We visited Vanrhynsdorp Primary School which is doing very well. We also visited a sport field funded to the tune of R1,7 million, not very convincing. We need a follow-up on that, especially on the poor workmanship of that field.


There is a huge challenge in the form of a water crisis in Kannaland. There is one damn which dries up in winter. When the dam dries up, the municipality purchases water from local farm owners at the cost of about R1 million per month. This happens every year. The Department of Water and Sanitation needs to attend to this situation as it is something that happens every dry season in that municipality.


The electricity system of the town still belongs to Eskom and the complaint is that Eskom takes long to attend to repairs and the municipality is forbidden from attending to whatever repairs. There is a housing backlog, thus there is a need for the Department of Human Settlements to provide people there with government low-cost housing.


We also visited the local police station and there was a complaint that the Zoar Police Station is not open everyday. We visited a water reticulation project funded to the tune of R12 million through the Municipal Infrastructure Grant and the Calitzdorp water project to the tune of R1 million. They are also working on the relocation of the Ladismith Dam to the tune of R2,5 million and the Zoar water reticulation project to R471 000. We visited the Alan Blyth Hospital, a very well-looked-after hospital. It is a model hospital. It is an old hospital, with very focused management, and doing very well. Taking Legislature to the People observations went well, there is satisfactory co-operation between the provincial legislature and the district.


We need to commend the NCOP Deputy Chairperson, Hon Tau, who was standing in for the chair. His conflict resolution skills are commendable. There was a lack of full attendance by the executive, some executive members came with the intention of politicising the occasion. Zoar leaders spoke a lot about the issues of governance. Also the people of the district need to benefited from all the services that we took to the area.


In conclusion, there were issues raised, but the IFP is suggesting that there must be a post-Taking Legisltaure to the People process to establish if the issues raised are getting the necessary attention. I thank you.


Mr R DYANTYI: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Ministers and MECs present, hon members, I rise firmly to make the assertion that the NCOP brought much-needed hope to the people of the Eden District. Despite the frustrations, despair and anger at the denial of basic services characterising most of the interactions, we concluded the week with much hope pinned on the leadership demonstrated by the NCOP. We dare not fail them.


Ordinary people articulated how the Western Cape government impact on their lives. The state of local government in delivering basic services to citizens was the focus of many who took the mic to raise their concerns, whether it was water, sanitation, electricity or the affordability of those services.


Whereas the acting premier painted a picture of good governance and delivery, engagements from the floor demonstrated the disconnection with that assertion. We were there, we all saw it. They told us in no uncertain terms ...


... dat hulle realiteit en huidige situasie sleg en onaanvaarbaar is. [...that their reality and current situation is so bad and unacceptable.]


The huge contrasts were there for all to see. The Western Cape and Eden District boast good performance in the sectors of manufacturing, fishing, construction, catering, retail, accommodation and transport. Yet -  and I might add to what the hon deputy chairperson said about transport and the cost thereof - if you stay in Khayelitsha in the City of Cape Town, out of every R100 you own, R60 of that goes to transport. You are left with R40 for everything else. This is the best-run province. It is happening here. Now, we are talking facts. It is not hot air.


Further, despite the fact that it has a 20% unemployment rate, a 53% absorption rate and a 68% labour force participating rate, all of these rosy picture issues do not impact on the daily lives and living conditions of poor people in Eden and the Western Cape. You have a government that is not serving its people, the very vulnerable and poor working class. It remains an enclave of the privileged few.  That is exactly what hon member Wiley was speaking of - that privileged few. How else do you explain this contrast?


The incumbent DA government in the Western Cape has inherited a province with serious capacity, skills and many of the above performance sectors. Unlike the Eastern Cape, Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal, Free State and Mpumalanga, who all inherited homelands created by apartheid and had to take 20 years to fix the mess of homelands, the Western Cape had none of that.


Therefore, no one must create the impression that the strengths the Western Cape have are as a result of the DA. In fact, the DA is failing to translate that strength to benefit its ordinary citizens. If you doubt that, let me remind you of the issues raised at the NCOP when we took Parliament to the people in Eden. They told us very clearly that poverty is rising in many parts of that area, issues of inequality are daily occurrences, joblessness, rising indebtedness of households that cannot even afford to pay municipal services.


When everybody told them that Eden is a tourist Mecca, they said the tourism in this area benefit the elite, not us. That is what they said in front of all of us. It is in this best-run province, the Western Cape. There is no integration of communities and services. We were told of two types of services - that in poor areas, you have no services, traffic lights are not working, and drains will be left blocked, but when you go across to the other area, there are better services.


They told us of housing promises that were never fulfilled since 2009. In fact, the MEC for human settlements was told on the floor that when you take an undertaking, you did this before you never came back. So, Deputy Minister Kota-Hendricks, the MEC was told at that gathering that he said he was coming back and they are still waiting for him. So, whatever undertaking they promised, there is a question mark on those.


The key observation to be made from the visit, amongst other things, has to be the following: the Back to Basics programme introduced by Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs remains the best viable ...


Dit is baie seer; ek kan dit verstaan. [It hurts a lot; I can understand that.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Dyantyi, just address me. Continue.


Mr R DYANTYI: My apologies, Chair .... sustainable solution in ensuring functional municipalities and thereby improving people’s lives. There is no correlation between the clean audits received by the majority of the Western Cape municipalities and service delivery.


Let me unpack this for you. In the Eden District Municipality, out of six municipalities, five of them received clean audits. While we were there we heard about protests, poor revenue, rising debt of households, sanitation problems, yet the very same municipalities have got clean audits. What it means is that they are only good at bookkeeping. The clean audit is not translated in improving people’s lives. Therefore, there is no reason why we should appreciate and recognise a fish for being in the water. A fish belongs in the water. Clean audits are about basic services. All municipalities have got to do that, whether they are run by the ANC or the DA.


There is no amount of PR exercises that will change and improve the living conditions of ordinary people. The acting premier, MEC Ivan Meyer, was made to eat humble pie. When he came back at the conclusion of the week-long session to admit that having attended to a complaint raised from the floor, he came to the same conclusion as the complainant about the nature of the problem. He told us in the NCOP that, after going and listening to that, he now agreed that they have a problem; having painted a rosy picture before. So, even before five days he had to change his mindset.


In terms of the post-NCOP visit process - and I am worried that member Wiley did not make that point - there are already good signs to ensure that the momentum created by the NCOP is not lost. We appreciate and thank the Department of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs for following up after the visit of the NCOP and visiting Oudtshoorn, even if it meant that they had to drag the MEC to go to Oudtshoorn, because he was not there before that. Member Wiley asked why he did not go and speak to Oudtshoorn. The standing committee of local government in the Western Cape played an oversight role even though it is not the role of the NCOP to have done that. [Interjections.]


Two weeks ago, members of the legislature undertook a cluster follow-up visit to George ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Just do not drown-out the speaker, please. Continue, hon Dyantyi.


Mr R DYANTYI: It is not nice.




Mr R DYANTYI: ... Mossel Bay and Hessequa Local Municipalities to ensure that we don’t lose momentum. We visited those areas, following up on some of the issues that were raised, whether it be housing, water, and so on. I think the Western Cape government would benefit a lot if they were to listen to what Mwalimu Julius Nyerere used to say. The former President of Tanzania used to say: People are not asking you to build them houses today, to fix everything today, all they are asking you is to demonstrate visibly and concretely that you are taking them seriously. You have failed to do that. The NCOP week in Oudtshoorn showed that you are failing dismally on that.




Mr R DYANTYI: Secondly, Chair, as I conclude, whereas the DA goes around complaining about the bloated Cabinet in the country, I want to make the point that the Western Cape Premier’s Office is the biggest amongst all nine province, and yet they are not making that point.


Cllr D QUALLY: (SALGA): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, Salga is pleased to have participated in this year’s “Taking Parliament to the People” in the Western Cape. We support initiates such as this in order to encourage participatory democracy through enhanced participation. We strongly believe that functional collaborative partnerships between all spheres of government are essential to improving service delivery.


As the constitutional structure where the three spheres of government meet, the NCOP plays a role in the promotion of principles of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations. It is mandated to ensure that the different spheres of government work together in performing their unique functions in terms of the Constitution and that in doing so they do not encroach on each others areas of competence.


There are many challenges facing local government. The NCOP in co-operation with Salga can play a significant part in addressing some of the more fundamental issues impacting service delivery. It is important to find the right balance between compliance and service delivery. Excessive legislation, regulation and reporting requirements are having a negative impact on municipalities.

Another serious issue is that of unfunded and underfunded mandates which was raised by our members in our national working groups which are subcommittees of the national executive council, NEC, of Salga. It was also raised in the budget forum and with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs at the Western Cape’s premier co-ordinating forum last year where he requested a business case to be submitted.


Success in delivering basic services at local government level is impacted by the effectiveness of co-ordination and the participation of all major role players, but it is also dependant on adequate financing. While acknowledging the difficulties in balancing the national budget, Salga is of the view that local government as the sphere closest to the people and providing a direct link in the service delivery chain is not receiving a sufficient portion of the equitable share funding.


The review of powers and functions must also be addressed. For example, the assignment of the housing function or more specifically the decision to withhold the assignment of the housing function and the control of electricity distribution within municipal boundaries should be reviewed. Indeed, it is an appropriate time to reconsider the very structure of local government, an exercise in which the NCOP could play an important role.


In engaging communities we say, firstly, we applaud the initiative of bringing all three spheres of government under one roof to engage the communities. The physical arrangements for this programme were impressive as was the number of community members who came in droves and filled the giant marquee. Their enthusiasm was clearly evident with some starting their journey as early as 4am, all in the hope that their issues would receive attention. Regrettably, this only happened to a limited degree.


We believe that the methodology for hearing their concerns needs a serious rethink and revision. We are encouraged in this regard by the NCOP Deputy Chair, hon Tau’s statement made at the strategic planning session of the NCOP in August 2014. But going forward, it was important to reconsider the form and content of “Taking Parliament to the People”. We suggested, in particular, that a more effective method needs to be found for issues to be raised and prioritised by communities. For example, rather than requiring individuals to line up in a queue to speak, there should be break away sessions on a range of topics where issues can be identified and prioritised and then presented to the plenary.


Secondly, the absence of several Ministers was disappointing as it reduces interaction with the communities and limits the success of the programme. Ministerial presence would have provided access to people from a wide range of areas that would otherwise not have had the opportunity to directly interact with the House of Parliament. It is therefore vital for the NCOP to ensure that all relevant Ministers are available to respond to service delivery issues raised by citizens in these public hearings.


Nonetheless, a number of key issues emerged from the engagements with the residents of the Eden District Municipality. Access to services, poor quality of service delivery and housing were issues raised repeatedly by members of the public attending the hearings. There were further specific issues which included lack of access to land and housing, delay in allocation and corruption in allocating RDP houses to beneficiaries on waiting lists, particularly the elderly, poor quality of RDP houses, lack of access to electricity in some areas of the municipality, especially the poor farming areas, lack of access to water and water shortages in some areas, lack of sanitation, racism and discrimination, lack of scholar transport in areas such as Silvertown and Tembalethu, need for gas and solar energy and the need to empower, including black residents, in farming activities such as the lucrative ostrich farming.


The NCOP must ensure that the executive carries out all the undertakings and commitments it made in response to some of the key service delivery issues raised above. A clear follow-up to track and assess progress in addressing the key service delivery issues identified is necessary.


In conclusion, let us acknowledge, but not be overcome by the challenges that remain. This event proved once more that the NCOP is the appropriate vehicle for the achievement of participatory democracy and co-operative governance. Salga has been an active part of the NCOP family for sometime now and we remain committed to working with it and other partners to find sustainable and satisfactory solutions.


Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson. hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, in order for the local sphere of government to respond to the critical social economic challenges confronting the ordinary citizens, all spheres of government, departments and public entities, including the private sector must pull together.


Fragmented planning, implementation, monitoring and evaluation continue to be a troubling matter in the fight against hunger, poverty, unemployment, crime and inequality. An integrated approach to the challenge confronting the people remains our only hope. Over the last 15 years of democracy, local government we have seen all and we can now confirm that the only way to go is collectiveness.


Human settlement has many other role players that need to be part of the processes from identification of land, rezoning, underground infrastructure, water and sanitation, recreation and education and, even before we talk, putting up the top structure. As the NCOP, we are busy putting various department policy positions some of which introduce new methods of doing things, like less water sanitation option. This means before the Department of Human Settlements puts up the top structure, a detailed planning between these departments is a primary requirement.


As we approach the elections towards the fourth term of democratic local government, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs should facilitate a debated and relevant stakeholder’s dialogue as to what at the prattle experience of the daily context between people and local leaders. This must include the extent of which people are able to make meaningful contribution to determine their priorities during IDP public participation.


As the UDM, it is our strong view that these processes do not maximise direct participation of the people and must be reviewed as part of the experience of democratic local government since its inception in 2000. It cannot be business as usual when people remain on the streets seeking food, shelter and many other amenities. It cannot be business as usual when it proves beyond doubt that our socioeconomic infrastructure is in a state of constant decay in towns small or big. It cannot be business as usual when more and more young people are involved in drugs and crime-related social ills.


We firmly suggest that through evaluation of more democratic local sphere of government, empowering communities in order to participate in their own development, empowering them to run their home-based gardens to feed themselves, creating opportunities for local-based trainings, development of young people through training and others.


Finally, we thank you for giving us this opportunity, but it is very important that we know that South Africa is not a federal state and that the people are more important than us fighting, the DA and the ANC fighting. It is about the people down there who are suffering. In all these provinces, it is the same problem. It’s not only in the Western Cape. You go to KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, there are potholes.


Bayahlupheka abantu. [Uwele-wele.] [People are in poverty. [Interjections.]]


It is then the duty of the national government to lead. The national government must lead, deal and speak with the provincial government so that they can assist the people. It’s about the people and not about you fighting here. The DA is in control of the Western Cape, respect that. Nationally, the ANC government is in power, respect that. Let us respect each other and be concerned about the people. Thank you.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I had my first baptism of fire in the Sekhukhune Ddistrict Mmunicipality in mid- ssummer in of 2009. The municipality buildings were in a shocking state. The entire event of the “Ttaking Pparliament to the Ppeople ” went through places, schools and clinics. All all public buildings really needed repairs, maintenance, and support. We sped through potholed roads at high speed, I can remember hon Alf Lees jumped out one morning and said; he wais not travelling any further and they had to send another vehicle for him. The state of that province is really bad. I would like to ask this the hon Member from Limpopo, the hon Mathyehe ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Van Lingen, there is a point of order. Please, take your seat.



Mr W T MADILENG: (Point of Order) Hon Chairperson, I want to find outfind out if the hon Mmember is readyready to take a question.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, no, not now.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, s Sir., Pplease, proceed, hon Van Lingen.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I proposed that this hon mMember Chairperson first fixes Mogalakwena, Mookgopong, Thabazimbi and Bela-Bela municipalities Makgalakoena, Mokgopong, Thabazimbi and Belabela municipalities before they come and they come and bark onat the the Eeden District Mmunicipality. The Bbible says; first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. Let us stick to basics. [Interjections.]


Mr A J NYAMBI: (Point of Order)Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it pParliamentary in this House to say that mMembers are barking?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, s Sir., hHon Van Lingen, you also also know it is not pParliamentary., Pplease, withdraw.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I would like to enquire from you.  I would like to enquire from you that The other day the hon Nyambi the other day said:said that ” a dog doesn’t bark at a stationary, tractor or vehicle. Now his dogs can bark, and my members can’t bark; no, hon Chairperson., But if I maymust withdraw, I willwill withdraw. I do withdraw, hon, Chair. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Van Lingen, withdraw, because the ... [Iinterjections.]


Ms E .C. VAN LINGEN: I did say I am withdrawing, Chairperson. I withdraw the barking part., the “barking” part.




Mr A .J. NYAMBI: Hon Chairperson, I want to say to the hon ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Nyambi, is that a pPoint of order? Hon Van Lingen, take your seat. Hon Nyambi, what is your point of order?


Mr A .J. NYAMBI: (Point of Order) Chair, as I am very close to hon Smith, I waswanted to checking Chair whether is it in order for hon Van Lingen to continuously continuously disregard when your are requests forting her to take aa seat.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, hon Nyambi, theyour pPoint is taken.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, this is going to be a very difficult conversation,. So, what I would like to do; is to put my proposal on the table first. I have doneattended quite a number of Taking Parliaments to the pPeople programmes. My proposal is that; we as members of the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, go to our provinces and attend the llegislaturee to the ppeople programmes with our provinces. Later, we bring those issues back here at a national level. That, I think we will be closer to our national and constitutional mandate than what it is being considered here.


I would like to also say thatto hon Dyantyi Jankee thatwho refers tourism ais for the elite. Tourism creates six out of 10 jobs in that area. The CKango Ccaves actually need repair, funding and sufficient management. It is also the hIt is also the hon Minister Gigaba’s violent visa regulations that which are costing South Africa a vast number of tourists. I can tell you that tThe Eastern Cape tourism numbers have badly really badly dropped .If we look at 2007, 76,.2 million ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Van Lingen, please take your seat., is it a point of order Mam?


MsS T .MOTARA: (Point of Order) Yes Chairperson, on a point of order: Yes, hon Van Lingen is misleading the House by calling the visa regulations violent. Tthere is nothing violent inin the regulations.


MsS E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I withdraw and I would like to replace it with aggressive [Laughter.] and damaging to South Africa. [Laughter.]




Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I would also like to say to the Minister of Human Settlementshousing who had a statement here who had a statement that we find ... [Interjection.] We agree with her andin that. A large number of houses haves been built in South Africa since 1994 and for whichthat we are grateful. The figure that we had in her question reply amounts to 3,6 million. But the problem is that only 1,44 million had been issued with title deeds and I think the Minister mustt help us onin that. If the Minister thinks that the housing situation is bad in the Eden Ddistrict Municipality, then I invite her to come visit us in the QuaquaKouga and Kaukamathe Koukamma municipalities so that I could show her how it looks like there.


The hon Deputy Minister Bapela talked about the lack of political and administrative stability. that is lacking, I would like to tell the Deputy Minister that: administrative instability normally follows the political instability. That is why Oudtshoorn is where it is because the ANC does not have the capacity to sort out their own political issues. They allow four people to hijack the whole municipality.


When it comes to hon Lesufi, I would like to offer him a copy of hon Labuschagne’s speech so that he can read it and get all the clauses. We cannot allow mMembers from pProvinces to come and tell us what our constitutional mandate is in the House.


Hon De Beer,s you saidy all the issues raised at Oudtshoorn and during the Taking Parliament to the Ppeople programme will be coming to our cCommittees., I can tell you, yYou know very well that nothing has come to either the finance or appropriations cCommittee. I’ve checked with my colleagues from the the other committees, but nothing has been tabled in front of the NCOPs’s select committees. When you always refer to the Western Cape as a country within a country, it hurts, it hurts. You will be so sorry because one of the days Gauteng will be a country within a country. And not long [interjections.] after that the ANC iswill be in full panic moremode because we will win the Northern Cape as well, and that will be’s another country within thea country. I thank you hon Chair. [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon mMembers, hon Van Lingen, it is within the right of provincial special delegates from any other provinces to reflect on the health of any part of South Africa., Sso, the hon Lesufi was within his rights to speak about any other part of governance and governance issues in South Africa. Thank you very much.


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Ministers in our midst, the House at large, I do not want to waste my time, all protocol observed.


I just want to say that I am so disappointed. I had thought that the DA would use this opportunity to respond to the people of Eden District ... [Interjections.] ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order members! That excitement there! Hon Dlamini, please take you seat for a moment. Hon Nyambi.


Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Chair, I am standing on the issue of hon Mtileni, Chair. I am aware that without the permission of hon Dlamini, he decided to get to the House, take hon Dlamini’s jacket and wore it. Is that parliamentary or is it in order?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Nyambi. You know that there is no Rule in the Rule Book which says that a member cannot touch another member’s clothing. [Laughter.] But, hon Mtileni, it would just be common courtesy to ask for the permission even if you admire the coat.


Ms L C DLAMINI: He likes my perfume. I had thought that the DA was going to use this opportunity to respond on the issues raised by the people of Eden District because it would have been good to do so. It is also important that you read that report and look at the responses of your so-called Ministers, look at how they responded on these issues.


Hon Chair, I want to thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to debate on this important debate of Taking Parliament to the People.


Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for the hon member to refer to hon members as the so-called? [Interjections.] Is it parliamentary?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I suspect your sugar levels are a little bit low. [Laughter.] It is not unparliamentary, hon Mtileni. Hon Dlamini, Continue.


Ms L C DLAMINI: A subject that is very close to the heart of the ANC, the people, especially the poor, vulnerable, marginalised and the oppressed. I want to say to the hon Labuschagne, you are right; it is the programme of the ANC of going to the people, it was not decided today, it was decided 103 years ago when the ANC was formed. Just to give you a lecture, it was formed in 1912 to unite the Africans and spearhead the struggle for fundamental, political, social and economic change – EFF, in 2012, we were talking about economic change by then. The ANC’s key objective is the creation of a united, nonracial, nonsexist and democratic society. Therefore, you can only do that when you go to the people.


I am also surprised that hon Lingen is saying she has been attending this Taking Parliament to the People programme for so many years. She mentioned 2009. But the manner in which they are responding to the Taking Parliament to the People programme in the Western Cape, it is like heaven is going to come down.


Hon Chair, you do not know how much I wanted to believe ...


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I just want to say the hon Dlamini looks beautiful in that dress, but I would like know if she would take a question from me while she looks in such good condition? [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dlamini, are you prepared to take a question from hon Faber?


Ms L C DLAMINI: In Acacia, when we are meeting as the residents’ committee. [Laughter.]


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I would still like know: Is she going to take a question?




Mr W F FABER: Thank you. Maybe tomorrow. [Interjections.]




Ms L C DLAMINI: You don’t know how much I wanted to believe what has been said by the DA in this House since I came here, about the good work that they are doing in the Western Cape, for the sake of our people. Even those who are not coming from the Western Cape, hon Lingen just did it now – they will speak on behalf of the Western Cape instead of their provinces. If I were not a Member of Parliament, I would have said ...


... angikaze ngibabone abantu abanamanga njenge-DA! [Uhleko.] [... I have never seen such liars as the DA! [Laughter.]]


But I am in Parliament.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Because you are in Parliament, you will not use that word. [Interjections.] Withdraw, please!


Ms L C DLAMINI: Yes, I won’t. I did not say it. It was heartbreaking to learn that in the Western Cape province, where the DA is in power, the just and equal society is a dream which is very far from being realised by the coloured and the black people.

For those who are poor, vulnerable and marginalised, they will never realise this dream.


This reminds of a story about a tourist that was touring in a socialist country. When he was going around he saw big churches, he asked why they are not on the map, he was told that things that don’t matter are not put on the map. I realised the same thing in the Western Cape that when they are saying that they are doing very well, they do not count black and coloured people because to them, they do not matter. [Interjections.]


If you are to go back to Bhongolwethu and tell those five families who are using one ablution facility, they will not agree with you. This is a challenge that needs to be addressed as a matter urgency. [Interjections.] They are busy defending the indefensible, instead of responding to those issues. In fact, in every municipality, in the former black-only residential areas and human settlement, where formally or informally, there is this challenge of many people sharing ablution facilities. You have no shame!


Despite the fact that Protea Park informal settlement has been in existence for more than 15 ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, don’t drown the speaker! You can heckle, but don’t drown her out!


Ms L C DLAMINI: Protea Park has been in existence for 15 years, but nothing has been done to develop it, while new areas, areas where people are politically aligned to the DA have been developed. The affected municipalities, plus the Department of Human Settlement and local government should take this thing very seriously and act on it instead of making noise here in Parliament; people need services out there. [Interjections.]


By the way, - I was there, - a DA senior official of the municipality was telling the people of Slangrivier that houses ...


Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, I just want to know if it is parliamentary for hon Dlamini to say Members of Parliament are making noise, whilst we are debating?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, that means I am the first person out of order because I do, sometimes, tell you not to make noise. It is parliamentary. The hon members must behave like adults; heckle but don’t drown the speaker. Hon Dlamini made that reference in reflecting because I think your question is in respect of the context within which members are making noise. If members are making noise, we can’t say they are not making noise; that is parliamentary.


In this instance, she is referring to members reflecting on making noise in that context. Perhaps this is something that I should go and look at because the context is different from when you are making noise here, and we tell you that you are making noise. So, I want to give assurance to the House that I will look at the context and come back. But, ordinarily when you’re making noise, then you are making noise.


Ms L C DLAMINI: Chair, they are using housing as a political tool. I was there when a senior official from Hessequa Municipality was telling the people of Slangrivier that they are building RDP houses, and not the national government. What a scandal!


If you can go to Mr Mandela ...


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, I was just wondering whether the hon speaker would be able to tell us how she spent a quarter of a million rand to visit Disneyland on taxpayers’ money in 2011? Thank you. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dlamini! Hon Dlamini, continue with your speech. [Interjections.]


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I don’t know whether Mr Mandela, an elderly person from Mossel Bay, who has been engaging with the provincial department regarding his house which was been built on a water passage way, thus causing damage to the house. From a land use perspective, no building should be allowed to be built on a flood zone. Can you do that to white people? [Interjections.] No. You can’t! The municipality together with Human Settlement in the province has a responsibility to fulfil.


A delay in allocating a house for Ms B Stuurman at Bhongolwethu; can these people attest to that you are doing well? No, they will not say that. There is corruption in the provision of RDP houses. That is a DA province. There is poor quality of housing ... [Interjections.] ... for instance, Bertha Maadi of Waarhuis in Mossel Bay complained about the poor quality of an RDP house – I am talking about real people here – after 1994, indicating that most of them are falling apart.


DA, aninamahloni! [Ubuwelewele.] [DA, you have no shame! [Interjections.]]


They don’t care about people with disabilities. Mr Solomzi Mbamba, a blind man from Thabo Mbeki informal settlement threatened to commit suicide.


Niyasuka la nisibangel’ umsindo. [And you are making a noise.]


Bhekinkosi Dyasi in George also complained about poor housing conditions affecting people with disabilities. Ms Sindiswa Matiso of Ward 10 in George also raised the poor living condition challenge to ...


Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chair, ... to say yekelani ukusibangel’ umsindo?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ukuthini baba? [What do you want to say, sir?]


Mr V E MTILENI: Yekelani kusibangel’ umsindo! [Uhleko.] [Stop making a noise! [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, the hon member said, niyasuka lapho nisibangel’ umsindo, which is completely different from what you say she said. Continue, hon Dlamini.


Ms L C DLAMINI: They also don’t consider indigence to elderly people; the bills are very high for the people of Eden District.


I went to one are in Slangrivier, they go around saying they can make jobs for the people. They must start here in the Western Cape. People are not working in Slangrivier; you go to places like Still Bay, poverty is written on the faces of those people.


On your way out, just here, when you are going to Century City to have dinner and lunch with your monies, there is a number if informal settlements. Go and take pictures, hon Smit, and bring them here.


Balal’ emigaqweni ... [They sleep on the street ...]


... as I am speaking now, they are there, in the City of Cape Town. Then you come here and claim that you are the best run province. They have don’t the interest of the people at heart, especially the black and coloured people. Thank you. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): Chairperson, I am happy that the NCOP has given us this golden opportunity in taking Parliament to all provinces, including the Western Cape. The Western Cape is not an island. We are not a federal state; we are a unitary state. Nobody is going to ask permission from anyone regarding where departments to. Taking Parliament to Oudtshoorn, in particular was very critical because the DA has failed the people of Oudtshoorn.


So, it was a very important step by the NCOP. Bredell could do nothing about that situation. He should have solved that problem long ago. As the Deputy Minister of Human Settlements, ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Deputy Minister, please take a seat. Hon Faber, you are on the platform. 


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I would really like to take a question from the Deputy Minister.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Do you want to take a question from the Deputy Minister?


Mr W F FABER: I would like to pose a question to the Deputy Minister. [Interjections.]




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: She says, “No,” hon member. Please continue, Deputy Minister.  


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): Chairperson, my experience as the Deputy Minister of Human Settlements, ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Deputy Minister of Human Settlement, please hold. Hon Mtileni?


Mr V E MTILENI: I just want to appreciate the dress that she is wearing. She looks very beautiful. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, sir, for the appreciation. Please take your seat now. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): My experience as a Deputy Minister of Human Settlements is that the housing delivery in the Eden District Municipality in particular is not as expected. I have raised those areas earlier on when I spoke. [Interjections.] It is worrying when hon member Labuschagne is doing an injustice to the raised issues, justifying the absence of MECs. I am not shocked though. I am sure the hon member, Deputy Minister Obed Bapela, would remember when we took a National Human Settlements Youth Accord to Good Hope. The absence of this government of the Western Cape in that accord was worrying. So to us, your excuses are always eminent.


I also want to say that at the end of the day, when you speak to people like hon member Mtileni, you wonder: In which world do they live? I think he lives in a utopia. Come back to the normal world.

The Deputy Minister clarified this important document which shows that we care for our people, particularly the poorest of the poor. We are celebrating 60 years of that document as we speak.


One of the critical things in our approach is the fact that we will defend the poor through saying: Houses, security and comfort. We will ensure that at the end of the day, we are not going to micromanage provinces. MECs must leave their provinces. However, in instances where they fail to deliver, we are forced to intervene as national government. I want to remind Mtileni that this government, ... [Interjections.] ... just two weeks ago, delivered a school of R40,2 million in Dunoon, here in the Western Cape. That was done ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni! Deputy Minister, hon Mtileni is rising. I was saying that she must refer to you as hon Mtileni. Yes! Please take your seat! [Interjections.] [Laughter.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): I just want to say that this government delivered a school of R40,2 million in Dunoon. It shows that we are caring for the poorest of the poor, Mtileni!


Just yesterday, I was in Limpopo in Polokwane, with the Premier, the MEC, ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Deputy Minister, please take your seat. Hon Julius? [Interjections.]




Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Deputy Minister must refer to a member as honourable, for the last time, please.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, hon Julius. Hon Deputy Minister, please ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): Hon members! Hon member, Mtileni! I want to say that we delivered houses in Polokwane in Seshego, yesterday. They were 189 rental units, where the lower end of the market would benefit from this government. That investment is R 53,2 million. People can rent for R400; and they can rent for R800. It does create conducive environment in the living conditions of our people. [Applause.]


In the last two days, the Minister of Housing Lindiwe Sisulu convened 300 emerging contractors at the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan Municipality to prepare them for the catalytic projects that we are planning across the country. That is a country in making! [Applause.]


Let us come back to this government of ours in the Western Cape. The City of Cape Town has returned more than R400 million that it could not spend on Urban Settlement Development Grant, USDG. That is supposed to be the best city in the world, but it is not able to deliver to communities when it is called upon to do so by this Department Human Settlements.


It is worrying that when the people went to the Parliamentary hearings in Oudtshoorn, you say that they are a rented crowd from the ANC. [Interjections.] This means that members of the ANC are not allowed to ask questions on matters that affect them. They are excluded from participating from any event. [Interjections.]


Mr H B GROENEWALD: No, they can do it, but don’t rent them!

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): It’s an irony! It is an irony, but you must remember that we live in the Western Cape. We do not live elsewhere; we live here!

Hon member Wiley, you reminded us of what happened at the SA Infantry School in Oudtshoorn. What did you do? It is important that you raise these issues, but you should say what is it that you did to rectify those issues as you are a Member of this Parliament. You also talk about the experience that you had in that school. In our minds, that experience reminds us of the Battle of Cuito Cuanavale! That experience reminds us of Ruth First! It reminds us of Joe Gqabi! So please, when you get to this platform: You must remember that we are a healing nation; and you must bear in mind that people have got other experiences.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: It seems that the hon Minister does not have a very clear understanding of what national and provincial competencies are. Military bases do not fall within the competency of a provincial government. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The point is taken, sir. Hon Deputy Minister!


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): I just want to remind the member: This was the drafter of the Constitution; the person who stands here, ... [Applause.] [Interjections.] ... particularly in Theme Committee 3 that speaks to the separation of powers. I am very clear about that.


I was very excited about what you said. I really think these issues will be taken up because when I spoke from Limpopo yesterday, I also spoke about the empowerment of women and the empowerment of the youth into the future. The issues raise by community members showed clearly that our people are calling for help. Our people want us to set aside our differences and assist them in improving their lives collectively.


We call upon those who are responsible to change their mindset for the better. All these issues that were raised, we can see they are simple issues that can be addressed by a provincial government through all MECs, and not one MEC. Particularly, if people take the other cap; is must be the cap of serving the nation. [Interjections.]


Mr F ESSACK: Let’s build the nation!


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): Let’s build the nation; it is very important!


Hon member Richard made my life very easy because he exactly outlined our experiences on daily basis in this province. I don’t want to be reminded of what is exactly taking place, but I can say that we are working very well together with the MEC of Human Settlements. I hope the issues that I am going to raise with him in improving the quality of life of those people in those areas will be taken up seriously.


I am concerned though about the fact that he said that the money which they have to build houses comes from them. I don’t understand what that means because the money comes from the national government. [Interjections.] I am aware that the revenue comes from taxpayers. I am not oblivious of that but you cannot say it is your money. You cannot say it your money. No, no, no, no! That money is appropriated through the process of Parliament and gets transferred to provinces. It is a conditional grant. It doesn’t come from your party. It comes from the government of the ANC – the leading party! [Applause.]


Mr H B GROENEWALD: We are all in that government!


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): It is a national department who is called upon to account for the R30,2 billion appropriated to us. It is not the provinces; it is us who accounts for R30,2 billion. [Interjections.]


Mr H B GROENEWALD: [Inaudible.] ... but, who is us?


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (Ms Z A KOTA-FREDERICKS): The specifications in terms of those housing deliveries are through the housing code from the national department. That is why we have National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC so that when we do things, we could do things to ensure the improvement of the lives of our people.


I think I must round up now because at the end of the day other people will learn how to do things better. [Interjections.] Thank you! [Applause.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, let me thank all hon members for responding in the debate to the issues raised by the people in the “Taking Parliament to the People” programme, and also for the actions that have been pointed out in the hope that the NCOP will exercise its oversight authority in ensuring that everything we said we are going to do will happen in response to the plight of our own people. However, I heard hon Labuschagne saying and whinging, unfortunately, and complaining and crying foul, criticising the “Taking Parliament to the People” programme.


This I’m not hearing for the first time; for, since this Parliament was established, the DA, from the days when it was the Democratic Party, DP, until now as the, DA has just been whinging, complaining and crying foul. They never really have the time to engage on the issue of Taking Parliament to the People. It’s an old record. You must go back to the studio, go and do a remix or some other music that we can play here - very boring.


Hon De Beer explained that there are preparatory steps that have been taken. You were part of them, and when you say that you lack information, we do not know what you are talking about.


Hon Mtileni I think that my colleague, hon Deputy Minister Kota-Hendricks, said you probably live in Utopia - I don’t know where that country is. [Laughter.] You are like these two scenarios that we have observed. When the former Minister Sydney Mufamadi was still a Minister he went to Venda to his village. He found two people sitting on a bench waiting for a nurse who was servicing them to see a doctor. This was just three years after democracy. The two old men were complaining and said “this government is doing nothing” eventhough they were sitting on a new bench, at a new clinic, going to be attended to by a nurse and seeing a doctor, yet they kept on saying that this government has not done anything. You are exactly like them. Even when there’s delivery, you’ll say that there’s nothing.


During the elections there were two young boys who said that they were not going to participate in the elections in Katlehong. This was in a new township, they were driving their cars on a tarred road, and all the houses had electricity - new houses and new elements. I asked them, if they say there’s no delivery, what was there in that area where they were washing their cars. They said that it was just grass and trees. I asked, when they say there’s no delivery, what they meant. They couldn’t answer that. So, you are blinded by fury and anger, as hon Madileng said in your absence. He even gave you a scripture that you must go and read. I think I’ll just ask you to give a note and give him the chapter in the Bible. Read that scripture, so that then you can stop getting angry, as was advised. Unfortunately, you are not here to listen when you are being advised. Chair, I don’t know whether to stop or to continue.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please stop and take your seat, sir.


Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chair, I’m just rising to acknowledge the presence of another Mtileni here. It’s a mistake by Home Affairs. He’s not Madileng, but Mtileni. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, sir. Thank you for the information. Hon Faber, are you still rising?


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I would just like to have that specific verse, please. I want to read it correctly, like the Constitution, which is also correct. I just want to have the exact verse.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay. Hon Faber, hon Madileng will give you the text. Please continue, Deputy Minister.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chair, I think South Africa has a good record of delivery. Yes, there are still challenges facing our people, but we are doing a lot in order to give a better life to our own people. Not just a few, but a lot. Three million houses - we can count that. We inherited an economy that was minus zero or minus whatever, it has grown. We’ve created new jobs up to 14 million now, permanent jobs, and the National Development Plan, NDP, is a plan that is now going to address those particular plans. So with the National Development Plan we are saying that we are going to do more.


Hon Wiley, I think you need to read the documents in Parliament. Taking Parliament to the People is about public participation and public involvement, it is not about oversight. Going there is talking to people, seeing things that are both good and not so good and then taking them back to Parliament. You can then begin to use that information to exert your oversight function. The idea of the “Taking Parliament to the People” programme is to allow people to talk and express themselves and for you to listen to them. You then answer where you can, but you take what you have learnt and convert it into an oversight function. Rather than saying that you went there and there were sewerage or there was nothing and these people were not engaged, and so forth, say here is the information; come and let’s use this information to exert our own oversight mechanism.


In terms of the Freedom Charter, when you said that we are busy implanting the Freedom Charter in the Constitution, maybe you are not familiar with the preamble. In the Freedom Charter it says, “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white”. The Preamble of the South African Constitution says, “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity”. The Freedom Charter was a guiding vision and the base in which this Constitution was founded. Whether you like it or not, the Freedom Charter is there and it is implanted in the Constitution. [Applause.]


For your own information, go and read the Freedom Charter, whether you like it or not. Look at the seven clauses, we have done well in those, but we are still to do more. However, there are three clauses in which we say that a radical economic transformation ought to happen. The wealth of the country has not yet been shared amongst all. The land has not yet been distributed to all the people and there shall be work and security. Those are the challenges. We have identified them and we’ve got a vision and we’ve got a plan with those issues.


Lastly, the instability in Oudtshoorn is not the ANC’s instability. The DA won the elections, unfortunately you couldn’t govern. The ANC went into coalition. You are the ones who are destabilising that coalition. You did exactly that; when we lost Cape Town, you went into a coalition yourself. Now we are giving you the very same medicine in Oudtshoorn and you are destabilising that particular area. The package that we said we are going to bring is a package that also includes addressing the budget issues. It’s here. We are going to ensure that that budget reaches surplus, that it is strengthened and we are going to give them support so that they can govern and deliver services and ensure that the instability that you are creating as the DA doesn’t go anywhere. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Chair, perhaps I should start by reminding ourselves of what our people said in Oudtshoorn. The first thing that they said – and kept on saying throughout the week – was, “Thank you very much”. [Applause.] They thanked us for having come to them, having listened to them, and having engaged with them, because since 1994, they had never had an opportunity to talk to Members of Parliament. [Applause.] Therefore, that, on its own, must then serve as a lesson for us to do more on what we have already started.


I find something very interesting and strange – it’s a pity that the hon member Van Lingen is not in the House now. There is this tendency – and the hon Nyambi did it very well yesterday by reminding us of the Preamble to the Constitution – and always this impression created that the ANC, that had fought so hard for us to have this Constitution that we have today, in actual fact, does everything it can to undermine that very same Constitution.


Hon Deputy Minister, speaking of the issue of Oudtshoorn, where is the issue now? It is with the judiciary, which is protected by this very same Constitution. However, they will criticise that, therefore indirectly undermining the Constitution because, if a matter is before a court of law ... the member is saying it is a constitutional right.


Next, she comes here and tells us that we must undermine the role of special delegates who come from their provinces, when, in actual fact, there is a dedicated chapter in the Constitution that addresses the composition of delegates to the NCOP. [Interjections.] It says there are special delegates and there are permanent delegates, and it outlines how these delegates are elected and what, then, becomes their role. However, this is the very same person who speaks about the Constitution and therefore indirectly undermines it – using the platform of Parliament, for that matter. It would have been different had she done it ko seterateng kwa [there on the streets]. We could have understood. Now, she does it here, however, in Parliament. [Interjections.]


I agree with the hon Wiley. Unfortunately, he is not here. [Interjections.] There is an interesting contradiction that I find here.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chair, there is a point of order.


Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, would the hon Tau take a question?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Tau, do you want to take a question?




Mr V E MTILENI: How do you ... respecting the Constitution? [Interjections.]






The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, hon Mtileni! [Interjections.] Hon Tau, take your seat.


An HON MEMBER: Sit down, Mtileni! [Interjections.]


Mr V E MTILENI: I can only be asked to sit down by you, not any howlers here.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, take your seat. Hon Mtileni, he said he would not take a question. Hon Motara?


Ms T MOTARA: Hon Chair, every presiding officer that has presided, including you, has ruled on heckling being allowed. However, the screaming that comes from the benches means I can’t hear. Rather, I can hear the screaming. Can you please rule, once and for all, and that members ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Alright. Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... order! Firstly, Members of Parliament have the right to heckle, to interject. That is allowed. What is not allowed is to drown out the person addressing the House. So, do your heckling, members. I can’t say you can’t do that, but don’t drown out the person who is at the podium.


Secondly, in that heckling, also remember that every right goes with a responsibility. If you exercise your right to heckle – it’s not a right; it’s a privilege, really, because it can’t be a right –remember also that other members need to hear what this person is addressing us on. Thank you very much. Hon Tau? It is on what point, hon Julius?


Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, it is really notable how exhaustive you can be when the opposition is being stood up on a point of order. How exhaustive you are! If it was one of us, from the opposition standing up, it would be plain - it’s out of order, or something like that. However, you are exhaustive every time someone from the ANC stands up in this House. It is notable from now, please, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you, hon Julius. Order, members! Perhaps I am being exhaustive, hon Julius, to use your words, when I explain. I explain, in fact, trying to protect you because you have been screaming, not heckling. I protect your right, hon Julius. Please keep quiet, I am addressing you!


What you are saying, your inference - which is the second time you have repeated it - is that I am biased. I want to invite you to bring a substantive motion on that – on my bias when I preside here, because there is no single member of this House who gets away with anything. When any member needs to be protected, I protect that member. It does not matter what party that member comes from.


When I said, “Keep quiet, hon member,” I am presiding. Your disrespect ... your disrespect is not debatable, it is unacceptable! Continue, hon Tau.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Chair, hon Labuschagne, we should always avoid being disingenuous with the issues that are before us.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni? [Interjections.] Hon Tau, take your seat. Hon Mtileni, address me! Don’t look at the hon ...


Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chair, on a point of order: My honourable friend here is attacking my president. He is saying the hon Julius is a replica of my president, Julius Malema. Is it parliamentary for him to comment like that? [Interjections.]




Mr V E MTILENI: Commander-in-chief. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright, let me rule, then, sir. Hon Mthimunye, please, comparing Members of Parliament ... they have the right to be individuals and it is not proper to compare the hon Julius, the Member of the NCOP, to the honourable Julius, the Member of the NA. Are you satisfied now, hon Mtileni? Thank you. Hon Tau.


Mr The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): R J TAU: I was speaking of the disingenuousness of the hon Labuschagne. In actual fact, I must put it on record. The hon Labuschagne has been part of the processes throughout, since the establishment of the steering committee that looked at how this process is going to be unfolded in the province, including the identification of sites and the maximisation of participation by our people. She was there throughout the processes. The only time she was absent was when the report was adopted by the steering committee and the dissolution of the steering committee. So, it is quite disingenuous to say she did not know what was happening in the process.


In actual fact, let me put it on record, once more. The then leader of the DA, the honourable Helen Zille, who is the rotating Deputy Chairperson, gave the programme her blessing, in her presence and in the presence of other members of the DA. Now, how come we can be told here that the DA didn’t know what was happening? There was a special delegation of members of the provincial legislature who formed part of the steering committee that saw to it that the programme becomes a success. Now, we are being accused of it being a project of the ANC in preparation for 2016. I think it is a politically misleading statement for you to make.


Hon Mtileni, it is just unfortunate. I mean, we have said consistently that we must tell the truth. You were not even there! You did not even care! Your entire EFF delegation was not even there. They never participated in any activity.


In actual fact, the honourable Matebus arrived on the last day and wanted to enter the hall. The poor person was so confused, he didn’t know what to do. We had to then smuggle him into the marquee in order to participate, and what happened to him? He has been redeployed! He has been redeployed because his action was seen to be in defiance of the leadership because your leadership took a decision not to meet with our people – and then you want to grandstand and behave in a way typical of a demagogue, wanting to tell our people that you serve their interests, only for them to find out you serve your own personal interests. Thank you.


Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I don’t think it’s fair for the hon Tau to put words into my mouth. He doesn’t know why the honourable Matebus was redeployed. It may not be the reason, so I think he should be aware and take note that it was not because of that. [Interjections.] Just like in the ANC, or any other party, one can be redeployed to other areas.




Mr V E MTILENI: That’s typical of a political party that has life in it. So, that’s the way it is with the EFF.




Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you for recognising our presence, hon Tau. Thank you, once more.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Hon Tau?


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I have made a point.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am going to sustain the point of order, hon Tau, even though it is a point of debate, because the reasons for the redeployment of our former colleague, the honourable Matebus are known to us. So, for that, I will sustain your concern. Please continue.


Mr R J TAU:The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright. I have just two last points, Chair. To the hon Wiley, thank you very much for having contradicted the hon Laubschagne. What the hon Wiley told us here was a total contradiction of what the hon Labuschagne was trying to tell us about the programme, and so forth. I appreciate, on behalf of the presidium, of course, that he, on behalf of the legislature of the Western Cape, appreciates the value of this kind of programme.


Lastly, to make the point to the hon Wiley, in absentia, there is no way that you can build an equal society or equal opportunities off a deeply rooted, historically unequal society. Let’s first balance the level of development. Let’s first ensure that we have created space in which this unequal equilibrium – let’s put it at that level – will have equal opportunities with equal strength, with equal ability in order for us to move forward as an equal society.


The way things are right now, however, the working class, the poor, the marginalised, and the young African people are still on the periphery, and it is the responsibility of this developmental Parliament to ensure that we maximise their role and participation within the processes of their own development. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Members, firstly, I do want to say that the SA Local Government Association, Salga, and the Western Cape did raise the issue of the absence of the executive. We did note. That matter was brought to the attention of the Deputy President.


The second point which was raised was whether we are going to keep a record and whether we will follow up. Yes, we are. One of the things we agreed to was that we need to continuously go back to where we have been. That matter is receiving attention.


We are also aware that ... in fact, I have sent correspondence to all the members of the executive on all the issues which came out of the interactions in the plenaries. We have not yet received any responses. We will write again and again, and we will only go to the head of state when the three attempts to elicit responses from the executive do not bear fruit. I just thought that I should say to the House that, indeed, we are doing something.


On the issue of the infantry, in fact, I led the delegation that went to school. We confronted the issues. In fact, we addressed even the issues that we found had not been told to us there. The Minister of Defence has been informed of the issues around the infantry school and I am hoping that it is another matter which we will follow through on.


Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I do know that we were almost deteriorating towards the latter part of this debate. I wish to make a proposal, and that it is that we invite hon members ... we have prepared a meal, because we recognised that the restaurant would be closed because we have been sitting through. I propose that we take an hour to have lunch and come back, because we have to deal with the Appropriation Bill.


So, I am adjourning the House so that we can quickly get a meal in the Old Assembly restaurant on the second floor. Thank you.


Business suspended at 14:21 and resumed at 15:21.


The House resumed at 15:28.




(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)


Mr S J MOHAI: ... and the second session of our sitting ... [Interjections.] ... just after having witnessed the presence of the Cuban Five, which inspires and educate us all about the imperatives of the struggle that comes with hard work, persistence and the spirit of no surrender. It really motivates to realise how people of the world can continue to keep with human solidarity across the borders of the globe.


The Bill was tabled in the National Assembly, during the tabling of the National Budget by Minister Nene, on 25 February. The Bill provides for the appropriation of money from National Revenue Fund in terms of section 213 of the Constitution and section 15 of the Public Finance Management Act.


Conditions of transfers of the appropriated funds to other spheres of government are stipulated within the Division of Revenue Bill that has already been passed by both Houses of Parliament earlier on. Section 10 of Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, empowers Parliament to consider and pass with or without amendments or even reject the Appropriation Bill within four months after the start of the financial year.


The Appropriation Bill is a section 77 Bill, which the committee processed in terms of section 75 Bill procedures. Although this is a section 77 Bill, not directly affecting provinces, it is however a Bill indirectly affecting provinces due to the fact that it is a money Bill that appropriate funds to national departments with provincial concurrent function as well as administering conditional grants to other spheres of government.


The Bill appropriates about R679,4 billion to various Budget Votes of which R464,8 billion are transfers and subsidies to other spheres of government and organs of state, while R16,6 billion has been allocated for the payment of capital assets. The total public sector infrastructure including state enterprises is about R274 billion. This is in line with government priorities to invest infrastructure to support long-term, growth and development. About R700 million is reprioritised funds allocated to the Department of Water and Sanitation for regional bulk infrastructure allocations. In kind, while R163 million and R231,6 million are reprioritised funds for repairs of transport and housing infrastructures damaged by disasters.


Although the current fiscal constraint necessitated reduced expenditure ceiling on budget, it is important to state that spending continue to grow in priority areas such as social protection, basic and postschool education, local economic development, health and economic affairs.


To ensure that appropriated funds translating to desired outcomes and also value for money, calls for a vigorous oversight by select committees as well as thorough oversight structures.


Another matter that will require special focus of Parliament is monitoring compliance of various spheres of government with proposed cost-cutting measures. This appropriation carries the hopes and aspirations of the people of South Africa who stand to benefit from its implementation to transform their lives for the better.


It is for this reason the Select Committee on Appropriation, having considered the Appropriation Bill 6 of 2015 referred to it and classified by the joint taking mechanism as a section 77 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill without any amendments. Thank you, Deputy Chair. [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


Vote No 1 — Presidency — put.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are there any objections? No objection agreed to ... [Interjections.] ... Oh, hon Van Lingen?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, when we started with handing in objections and how we are going to vote in a meeting that we had in the Chief Whip’s office, it was only the DA that indicated the fact that we were going to make declarations. So, just as the matter of how we will be moving along; I would like to ask that, since declarations by other political parties are now coming and have increased overnight, we vote and make our declarations in alphabetical order. Because in every single case, the DA’s name is listed first, so it is unreasonable and we cannot have it that way.  


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Van Lingen, you may take your seat. Let us appreciate the creativity, that the hon Van Lingen was trying to introduce, but it is only proper that we follow the votes as they are. So we will start with Vote 1 and continue ... [Interjections.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I agree with you there, hon Deputy Chairperson, may I explain. If you look at version three of the document on the declaration column, the DA is listed first in every column. We always work in alphabetical order or the ANC speaks first. So, if anybody wants to make a declaration ... [Interjections.]




Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... let the committee member or the Chairperson ... [Interjections.]




Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... make the declaration and then we carry on.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Let us not introduce other things that would create confusion at the end of the day. Let us proceed, hon members. Is there any objection? In the absence of any objection ... [Interjections.] ... No, on Vote No 1.


Division called.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. There are more than four objections and the number qualifies for a division. I thought on the basis of that a better process will also be proposed in so far as the division is concerned. Okay. Hon Nyambi?

Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Chair, in order to make it simple for the people who will be assisting you, I am proposing that you have them on the same side so that it would be convenient and simple for the Table to do the counting. It would save us much time, and unlike now, it would also be very convenient for all of us.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any opposing view to the view that we have members calling for a division on one side and those who would not be, on the other side. Maybe we can ... Well, as we proceed, we will then identify those who will be abstaining and try to find the way of accommodating them somewhere. Hon Van Lingen?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chair, I would also like to request that if there is a division on a particular matter, those who vote against and those who vote in support of the Bill, be recorded in the minutes of the NCOP as such.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It would definitely be.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you, Sir.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Can we proceed in that way and ask the Whips also to assist?


The Council divided.


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng, W T; Mampuru, T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, African National Congress and United Democratic Movement.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, we would like to vote against it, object it and divide.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you very much, and we then have to be counting. I don’t want to assume. Has the number increased? Nine and 29. Is there any political party that wishes to make a declaration?


Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the DA cannot support the Budget Vote for the Parliament for the following reasons: There’s no transparency in Parliament’s financial report as prescribed in the Financial Management of Parliament Act; there’s no consistency in the application and interpretation of House Rules by either the Chairperson or the Deputy Chairperson or any other presiding officers in the NCOP; there’s also a case between the two Houses of Parliament where the Chairperson recently applied a sub judice rule in an oral question session to protect the Deputy President whilst the Speaker of the National Assembly allowed a debate to take place in the public’s interest in the same week; presiding officers have had the ... [Interjections.]




Mr A J NYAMBI: Yes, Chair, I would like you to rule whether it is parliamentary for hon Van Lingen to deliberately mislead the House and say that there are no rules in Parliament whilst we have the rules that are guiding us. I’m standing here and you are recognising me because I’m rising on a point of order and I’m using the same rules that we have as a House.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I didn’t hear that but if it was said that there are no rules ...


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: This is also a case between the two Houses of Parliament where the Chairperson recently applied a sub judice rule in an oral question session to protect the Deputy President whilst the Speaker of the National Assembly allowed a debate to take place in the public’s interest in the same week. Then I went on, sir, may I? The presiding officers have had a landmark case rulings against them for forcibly removing members from Parliament and arrest members by police which was ruled unconstitutional while the ejection of Member of Parliament for unparliamentary remarks was found to be unlawful as the Rules of Parliament were designed to echo the guarantees of freedom of speech and debate that Members of Parliament should enjoy as enshrined in the Constitution.


The due process - especially section 76’s Bills - must be implemented and an eight-week cycle for processing section 76’s Bills must be adhered to as requested by the provinces. A typical example is the Minerals and Petroleum Amendment Bill which was rushed to Parliament in the NCOP and the provinces in just 13 days at the end of the Fourth Parliament. This House cannot be responsible for slopping a legislation having a bad effect on provinces. The DA does not support the Budget Vote. The DA will use every available mechanism including the courts to hold the executive and Parliament to account according to the Constitution or legislation and Rules of Parliament. I thank you.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Chair, one single danger in our lives is for people not to know what belongs where. I think the DA had an opportunity when the Deputy President was presenting in the House; the opportunity existed and they could have taken it. It doesn’t really justify rejection of the budget in the wildest imagination there’s no connection and there’s no relationship.


Secondly, Parliament is the highest meeting of any country. If the DA does not want to debate and does not want to support this Vote; they may as well say that they don’t need to have a government in this country. Their reason for not supporting is not informed.


Thirdly, this House has got its own unique mandate. I’m not aware of a rule in the Rule book of the NCOP or the Rule book the other side. Fortunately, I sit on the Joint Rules Committee that says that you can interchange issues between the two Houses, and then there will be no need for each House with its distinct mandate. With due respect I think the member is misleading the people of the country. The reasons advanced here for not supporting this Vote, I repeat, are not at all politically informed. At best some of the reasons – I’m talking with specific reference to the Chair of the Council – border on being personal. I think all members in this House know that our mandate is to focus on the service delivery. Parliament is here for the people and if we are a democracy we are here by the people for the people. I think their case has no leg to stand on. Thank you.


Mnur L B GAEHLER: Sekela Somlomo, ufuna ukundibetha ngoku? Sekela Somlomo andisayi kuba ngathi ndisisikhwenene. Ngokwenyani mna nelam iqela lezopolitiko andikaboni ngxaki apha kule Ndlu. Nakowuphi na umtshato abakhona amakhwiniba. Kufuneka icace loo nto leyo. Zikhona iindawo ezifuna ukulungiswa naphina kodwa indlela eqhuba ngayo iNdlu noko mna njenge siqu nangokwelam iqela lezopolitiko, asikaboni ngxaki.


Ndiyafuna ukuthi kuyafuneka ukuba ngamanye amaxesha singalindeli ukuba izinto zonke ziyakulunga. Soze zingabikho iingxaki. Ngoko ke, lilonke ndiyayipasisa ivoti yohlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. Andinangxaki mna nto zakuthi kwaye andifuni nokube ndiniqhatha mna, andinayo tuu ingxaki. Zikhona izinto ezincinci ezinokumane zilungiswa kodwa masiyekeni ukube siziqhatha, kule ivoti ndakuba ndiyaxoka nto zakuthi ukuba ndithi ikhona ingxaki. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)


[Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Speaker, do you want to beat me now? Hon Deputy Speaker, I will not repeat what has been said.  My political party and I honestly do not see any problem in this House.  In any marriage there are problems. That must be clear.  There are things that need to be corrected in the House but my political party and I do, do not see any problem.


I would like to say, sometimes we must not expect that everything will be good.  We must expect problems.  Therefore, I support the budget vote. I don’t have any problem compatriots, I don’t even want to play around.  There are small things that can be corrected as time goes on but let us stop playing around.  I will be telling lies if I can say there is a problem in this vote. [Applause.]]


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 3 – Communications – put.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party and African National Congress.




Mr M KHAWULA: Objects.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The IFP objects. Objection of the DA and the IFP noted. Is there any declarations?


Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, in fact, for this one I would have called for a division but noting that it might not see the light of the day I will then go for abstaining. The IFP is concerned with regard to – especially - the way how the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, is banished in the country. We are seeing what is happening in the SABC today as similar to what was happening in the apartheid era SABC. The apartheid era SABC was a mouthpiece of the government at that time for all the things that government was doing - the SABC became a mouthpiece.


This SABC today is gradually becoming that SABC which is doing that function. It is doing that function to the detriment of the opposition parties in the country. The kind of attention that opposition parties are getting from the SABC is not a fair one because it is not equitable to the kind of the attention that the ruling party is getting from the SABC. Therefore, we object to this one.


We are also concerned as the IFP about the kind of verbal attacks that some politicians in the country are launching against the media in general. We are saying that the media has got a duty in the country to inform and to write about what is going on in the country. Therefore, these kinds of attacks when something happens to some quotas of political arenas in the country are beginning to take place. Therefore, we are objecting and we are also abstaining.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: How do you abstain without calling for a division? Are you calling for a division?


Mr M KHAWULA: Yes. I am not going to get the necessary support. [Laughter.] Therefore I’m abstaining [Inaudible.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member, even if you were to ask for a division you’re still not [Inaudible.] because you are alone. According to the Rules, you can’t even abstain but rather just to make a declaration because you need to be four in order for a division to be called. We note your declaration, but do you object?


Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I object and I respectfully refuse to vote.




Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Declarations of vote:

Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, in fact for this one I would have called for a division but noting that it might not see the light of the day I will then abstain.


The IFP is concerned with regard to the way the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, is managed in the country. We are seeing what is happens in the SABC today as similar to what was happening in the apartheid era SABC.


The apartheid era SABC was a mouthpiece of the government at that time. For all the things that government was doing, the SABC became a mouthpiece. The SABC of today is gradually becoming that SABC which is doing that function. It is doing that function to the detriment of the opposition parties in the country.


The kind of attention that opposition parties are getting from the SABC is not a fair one because it is not equitable to the kind of attention that the ruling party is getting from the SABC. Therefore, we object to this one.


As the IFP, we are also concerned about the kind of verbal attacks that some politicians in the country are launching against the media in general. We are saying the media has got a duty in the country, a duty to inform, a duty to write about what is going on in the country. Therefore, when something happens to some quotas of political arenas in the country, this kind of attacks are beginning to take place. Therefore, we are objecting and also abstaining.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: How do you abstain without calling for a division? Are you calling for a division?


Mr M KHAWULA: Yes, I am not going to get the necessary support. [Laughter.] And therefore, I am appealing... [Inaudible.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, hon member, even if you were to ask for a division, you still do not pass the mark because you are alone. You can’t even abstain. But, you would rather make a declaration. Because you need to be four in order for a division to be called. We note your declaration – But do you object?


Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, I object and I respectfully refuse to vote.




Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party and African National Congress.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, the UDM is concerned about this department. It has got unstable board, unstable executive and it’s always in the court for wrong reasons. Secondly, the coverage of airtime in a public institution should be for everybody and for all parties. That is not the case with the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, so we are really concerned. That is our declaration. Thank you.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Are you on Vote 3. Okay, we are done with Vote 3 and we are on Vote 4.


Ukhohlwe ukwenza i-declaration; sengize ngadlulela kuVoti lesi-4. [You forgot to make a declaration; I have already moved to Vote 4.]


Vote 4, is there any objection? The Democratic Party objected.


Mr F ESSACK: Chair, on behalf of the DA regarding Budget Vote 4: Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we hereby object to this Budget Vote and record the following declaration. We acknowledge the improved audit outcomes, but note that there is still a long way to go and that irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure is still very high. Municipalities that have been placed under section 139(1)(b) administration or section 139(1)(c) dissolution, have proven to have failed in ensuring that the oversight implementation of these dysfunctional municipalities improved, having instead regressed. In certain instances we have witnessed councils’ financial debt increase extensively when placed under administration.


Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has failed to act both decisively and with speed in dealing with some dysfunctional municipalities, and instead of placing them under immediate administration, they have chosen to rather wait for residents to take to the streets with violence service delivery protests and the barricading of national roads. Some of these protests have resulted in fatalities, for example [Inaudible.] and Mogalakwena. This is evidence of the department’s politically motivated intervention rather than administrative intervention. The Minister’s latest gerrymandering proposal to the Municipal Demarcation Board is a further cause of concern for us as this Act compromises the independent of the Demarcation Board.


Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has failed to clearly define the roles and responsibilities of traditional leaders, and as to whether this aspect is in conflict or compliments local government. There has also underfunding of the entities within the department, including the Commission for the Protection of Cultural, Linguistic and Religious Rights of Communities, CRL, and Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa. The inadequate provision of equitable share to municipalities and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs’ eagerness to accede to the National Treasury’s threat to withhold the equitable share to municipalities, when in arrears to Eskom thereby increasing the financial burden to councils, is of further serious concern to us.


We further note that SA Local Government Association, Salga, estimated that electricity was underfunded by R3,56 billion and water by R11 billion. These amounts were intended to provide free basic services to the indigent citizens of this country. The DA therefore, based on the above declaration, opposes the budget for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP whilst supporting this Budget Vote, we are supporting it with concerns. We are concerned with the poor management and mismanagement at most of the municipalities in the country. We are concerned with the kind of poor audit reports that some municipalities in the country keep on getting with no improvements. We are concerned with the poor skills because of the inappropriate employments in the municipalities. We also would like to raise an issue pertaining to the Demarcation Board that it does not have to be politically biased in the way they demarcate the wards, in the way they demarcate the municipal boundaries, and also in the way that the majors of the municipalities in the country are proposed.


We also would like to remind South Africa that there’s not a single traditional leader, hon Nkosi Thobejane, in South Africa who is urban. The kind of trend that happens with all the departments and with all the provinces in the country that always these budgets are allocated to people who are urban and smaller budgets are allocated to rural areas, we are concerned about that. This is reflected even in this department that the kind of budget that is allocated to the traditional side of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is a meagre budget as compared to what happens in the total budget of the department. We are saying that the department must show respect of traditional leaders by also allocating an adequate funding to the traditional site of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs so that we will see that amakhosi [tribal leaders] are really being given the necessary kind of respect in this country. Thank you.


Mr S G THOBEJANE: Deputy Chairperson of the Council, it is important for all of us to understand that for the first time in the era of municipalities in South Africa that the government has managed to diagnose the problem of our municipalities. The back to basics aims to, amongst others, identify municipalities that are performing better, those that are in the middle, and those that are not performing completely. As a result, the department managed therefore to identify 27 municipalities that require to be baby-sited by both the NA and the NCOP in making sure that they turn their performance into what it requires by the South Africans. Therefore, the issue of back to basics told us that the government is at work to make our municipalities to deliver to the expectations.


Yes, indeed, the issue relating to traditional leadership is a matter that requires a serious reviewed by government to make sure that the allocations towards that particular area indeed requires to be reconsidered because the capacity of the institution of traditional leadership requires to be capacitated in order to be responsive to the challenges facing our country. Issues relating to co-operative governance itself surely, we cannot use them to say that when our municipalities together with traditional leaders are not giving us what we expected. We should then turn our backs and said we should vote against the budget. This budget intends to build a better life for all of us because all of us are coming from the local environment.


Therefore, we need the local support for us to exist. All of us we need to look into the debate relating to the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in a very matured way, politically not individually; and politically, to look at issues relating to the service we expect from the municipalities. Therefore, all of us must then debate and assist our local government to function well than what it has been. As such, the ANC supports this particular Vote and we declare in that order. Thank you very much.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put


Division demanded.


The Council divided:

AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng, W T; Mampuru, T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 6 – International Relations and Cooperation – put and agreed to.


Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance,

Inkatha Freedom Party and African National Congress.


Division demanded.


The Council divided:


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng, W T; Mampuru, T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... and I have got a declaration to make.




Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on behalf of the DA I would like to make the following declaration on Budget Vote 9 on Public Enterprises. State-owned enterprises need to play a leading role in driving investment critical for our competitiveness of the economy. Currently the Department of Public Enterprises claims to stabilise, strengthen and solidify state-owned enterprises but this is indeed not the case. South African Airways, SAA, as an example, had eleven unsuccessful turn around strategies. In January 2015, Treasury announced yet another state guarantee of R6,48 billion, bringing the total amount to R14,4 billion.


This agreement has been done despite the Finance Minister’s promising that there will be no further bailouts for the airline in the mid-term budget. Eskom is currently under the doom of cost increases and load shedding for the next few years. This issue is currently operating a monopoly in an unregulated or partly regulated sector. This is a national crisis that the ANC is failing to provide solutions for, subsequently costing the ordinary South African more and more. Although ... [Inaudible.] ... operating satisfactorily but these issues are still having challenges with land claims. These processes should be managed better by the department and monitored closely. For these reasons the DA cannot support the budget on Public Enterprises.


Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza, Sihlalo ohloniphekile, iqembu leNkatha yeNkululeko nokuba lisesekela isabiwomali salo Mnyango kodwa lifisa ukusho ukuthi likwenza lokho nalezi zinkonono ezijwayelekile–ke, ekade sasizisho.


Siqhuzuka endaweni ezifanayo yonke iminyaka ezinhlakeni zalo Mnyango. Yonke iminyaka kufanele babuye bazokha futhi ebhodweni ngoba bona bayimigodi kayigcwali nje. Manje-ke amabhizinisi lawa kahulumeni okufanele ngabe aletha inkece eyinzuzo kuhulumeni kodwa kunalokho bahlale bebuyela emuva beyokha. Isizathu salokho yini na? Yilokhu kuthi uma kukhethwa amabhodi, kukhethwe abangane abangawazi umsebenzi; yilokhu kuthi uma kuqokwa ama-CEO kuqokwe abangani abangawazi umsebenzi. Lokhu bese kuwudicilela phansi umsebenzi wezwe.


Sithi-ke yisikhathi lesi sokuthi lo Mnyango uqale wenze amabhizinisi kahulumeni asebenze ngendlela efanele ngokuthi kuqokwe abantu abafanele, kube nama-CEO afanele, kuphinde kuqokwe abantu abafanele ekubeni amalungu amabhodi kulo Mnyango. Ngiyathokoza sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)


[Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, hon Chairperson, as much as the Inkatha Freedom Party supports the Budget Vote of this Department but we wish to state that we do that with the following complains, which we have been stating all the time.


We keep on complaining about the same things every year in this department’s structures. Every year they must come and get something form the budget because they don’t get satisfied. The state-owned enterprises that are supposed to make profit for the government, keep on regressing instead. The reason for that is that, when the board members are elected, they elect their friends which don’t know the work. This then let down the work of the country.


We are saying that, it is now the time for this department to make the state-owned enterprises to work in an appropriate way by electing the right people, with the appropriate CEOs and also elect the appropriate members for the board of this department. Thank you, Chairperson.]


Mr A J NYAMBI: Chairperson, we as ANC support this budget vote. One of the policy resolutions of this administration it is an emphasis on government’s capacity to effectively manage and co-ordinate the activities of state-owned companies. The establishment of the Presidential Review Committee on state-owned companies in May 2010, clearly outline the government’s commitment in ensuring that state-owned companies are indeed key drivers in the implementation of government’s policy from the National Development Plan, NDP, to the Industrial Policy Action Plan.


State-owned companies have been instrumental in the creation of efficient, competitive and responsive economic infrastructure network. Two of our major entities namely, Transnet and Eskom, have been in the forefront of job creation initiative including spearheading the fight against poverty and inequality. Transnet market demand strategy estimated at more than R300 billion over the next seven years is already at its peak. The infrastructure project is projected to create more than 170 jobs. How can you object that?


Approximately 540 000 job opportunities over the next seven years, how can you object to that? The build programme has been set aside R1 billion for the training of artisans and engineers. How can you object to that? I have no doubt in my mind that they have been impressed by the expertise and level of training our young women and youth undergo. Yet you object that. There has been a lot that has been said about Eskom and her challenges. The President in his state of the nation address this year, clearly outlined government’s plan in addressing Eskom energy constrain. Eskom will however not be able to successfully manage the country’s energy challenges without the support of all of us, hon van Lingen.


The Minister in the Department of Public Enterprise, hon Brown, in of the people to shun away from party politicking when the issues of matters of national interest are with us. The responsibility to ensure that Eskom generating capacity is at its optimal and that we do not in the near future suffer blackouts is an effort that requires all of us, hon members from my far right. Our attitude at finger pointing has the negative effect of conveying the wrong message to both our local and international stakeholders.


International investors and rating agencies could easily view such discord as justification for classifying our country as high risk. After everyone has had a chance to bluster, posture and pontificate we are left with one question, is it our national interest? We support this. If you are objecting this, you are undermining the job creation opportunities. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: We then come to Vote 10. Is there an objection? The DA’s objection is noted. We then proceed to Vote 11.Is there any objection? The DA’s objection is noted. We proceed to Vote 12.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: No! No! No! Sir, we are still in Vote 11...




Ms E C VAN LINGEN... we will call for the division and we want to make a declaration and we want to divide. You can continue.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can we divide quickly and you can make a declaration.




The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay fine. 29 in favour and nine against.


Declarations of vote:

The DA cannot support the Budget Vote for the Department of Public Works because there are too many questions about how the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, will be up scaled to improve co-ordination and performance in all four participating sectors in the 2015-16 to create the promised R1,1 million job opportunities spelled out as 450 thousand full time equivalence.


In this regard, the financial control of the EPWP grants must be tightened and the department’s provinces and municipalities must be held accountable.


The Independent Development Trust,IDT, and Coega Development Corporation,CDC, were implementing agencies in the Eastern Cape that did not complete the road maintenance tender process by the end of November last year. Because of that, no road maintenance was done in this province. Yet, this department seems unaware of the non delivery of the IDT which was again awarded R450 million. The Eastern Cape toilet saga where the Amathole District Municipality awarded a tender of R631 million to build 66 000 toilets in villages by the Siyenza Group.


The Nkandla report is a fuss and it is a disgrace that the hon Minister is not adhering to the findings of the Public Protector. But, is instead, supporting further security works without being certain about what extent the security requirements are. This reeks of a continuation of mocking the taxpayers’ purse to benefit number one.


The 16 land properties in custody of this department have not been released as targeted for land reform and of the 300 houses. Only 179 were released. Targets are not being met. A large number of the properties in custody of this department are not maintained. The urgent maintenance requirement of saps buildings in custody of this department needs to be addressed and the department should own up to its responsibilities. Thank you.


Mnu L B GAEHLER: Sekela Somlomo, indawo yokuqala eli sebe linegunya lokwakha izakhiwo zikarhulumente ngelishwa ke kodwa aliphumeleli ekusebenziseni eloo gunya. Yiyo loo nto namhlanje ubona amanye amasebe esenza imisebenzi ebekumele ukuba yenziwa liSebe lezeMisebenzi yoLuntu. Umzekelo, uya kufumanisa ukuba iSebe lezeMfundo lenza izakhiwo elingenagunya kuzo. Yiyo ke loo nto bengaphumeleli nje.


Eli sebe alikwazanga ukukhulisa abantu bakuthi abaNtsundu. Eli sebe linamasetyana anamashishini (entities.). Elinye lalo yi-Construction Industry Development Programme, CIDP, elimele ukuba likhulisa oonokhontrakhi abamnyama. Iikhontrakhi zonke ezimnyama zihleli kwinqanaba loku-1(Grade 1) azikhuli kodwa urhulumente ufaka imali kula mashishini. Elesibini ishishini elibalulekileyo yi-Community-Based Worker project, CBW. Eli ke ishishini lelabantu abanobugcisa. Nanamhlanje kukho abantwana bethu ezilalini abapasileyo kodwa abafumani ncedo kodwa kufakwa imali kula mashishini.


Okokugqibela okubalulekileyo, lishishini lesithathu ekuthiwa ngu-Agrima elijongene nokulungiswa kwezinto zokusebenza. Ukuba uya kwelinye icala uya kufumanisa ukuba kungena izinto zokusebenza ezitshiphu ezingalungelanga kusetyenziswa kodwa sinemali esiyifaka phaya. Eli lono isebe aliphumelelanga konke konke. Kodwa ke siyayipasisa yona ivoti yohlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)


[Mr L B GAEHLER:Deputy Speaker, firstly this department has the authority to build government buildings; unfortunately it does not succeed in using that authority. That is why today you see other departments doing work that was supposed to have been done by the Department of Public Works. For example, you will find that the Department of Education is building without authority. That is why they do not succeed.


This department did not manage to develop our black people. This department has small entities. One is the Construction Industry Development Programme, CIDP, which is supposed to develop black-owned contractors. All the black-owned contractors remain on level 1 (Grade 1); they do not grow but the government is pumping money into these entities. The second important entity is the Community-Based Worker project, CBW. This entity is for the artisans. Even today there are children in the villages who have passed matric, but they do not get financial aid from these entities - but money is being pumped into it.


The third and last important entity is called Agrima which is responsible for the maintenance of equipment. If you go to the other side, you will find out that they are using cheap equipment, which are not suitable for use but we have pumped money into that entity. This department did not succeed at all. But we are supporting the Budget Vote. Thank you.]


Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Deputy Chairperson, as it is required, this department appeared before the select committee and presented its Annual Performance Plan, APP, budget and the core of such sits the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP that is aimed at creating the jobs the country is crying about.


Secondly, a new entity is in creation by this department that is planned to manage all assets of government on behalf of government and that entity shall be reporting to this department. Therefore, the problem of state-owned property that is challenged with issues of management is being in the process of being managed.


Chairperson, I think the issue on the part of the DA to raise issues around Nkandla again bothers of being frivolous, from where I stand. Because I think there are processes in this Parliament that are dealing with that issue.


It is on this basis that as the ANC we think we should support this Budget Vote. Thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, the IFP supports the Department of Public Works Budget Vote with the concerns.


The concerns we have is in respect of the functioning of public works in the provinces and also at national level. It will be noticeable that most of the provinces and most departments in the provinces or some departments in the provinces are now establishing their own construction units because the problem is that they are not getting adequate services from public works in their provinces.


The same thing is happening at national level where health is also establishing their own construction units because they are not getting adequate service from the national Department of Public Works. So, that is a matter that needs to be attended to. We are aware that it is a matter that has got to do with skills but even those who are there are not doing the job properly.


We are also concerned in respect of the report that has come out - in respect of the developments in Nkandla. It is this department that was overseeing the building of R252 million estate in Nkandla. It is this department which has declared that there was price fixing and something has got to be done about that. The department came out to say there was price fixing. We need to have something done about it. Because, it is this department that was overseeing that. People responsible for that price fixing which escalated prices they must be brought to book.


This department must begin to do its work. It must come out of the intensive care unit, ICU, and be out there and do its work properly. Thank you.


Vote No 12 – Statistics SA – put and agreed to.


Vote No 13 — Women — put.


Declarations of vote:

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, we cannot support this Budget Vote because the Department of Women in the Presidency still does not set out what it was intended for, which is to give women equal rights in thought and action within South Africa. This explains the restructuring of this department by President Zuma in 2014 from his inception in 2009. Today, South Africa is still continuing to regress on the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s Social Institutions and Gender Index.


In South Africa, an estimated 9 million children are growing up in single parent households where the vast majority of those households are headed by mothers. About 43% of children in South Africa are raised by a single parent and this represents almost half of the children in our country. The incidents of sexual crimes in South Africa are still exceptionally high. In 2013-14 almost 63 000 sexual offences were committed, a decrease of 5,6% from the previous year. However, still representing 171 sexual offences committed everyday of the year and women are mostly impacted. These are serious issues that must be addressed by this department. For these reasons and a lack of proper programmes by the Department of Women in the Presidency, the DA cannot support this Budget Vote. Thank you.


Ms G M MANOPOLE: As the ANC, we believe that this budget will enable the department to accelerate and enhance the implementation of a mechanism that promotes the fight of women for societal transformation on an ongoing basis because it is aligned with nation building and social cohesion. Further more, in order for women to fully enjoy constitutional and legal guarantees, there is a need to redress the imbalances of the past. The achievement of gender equality is very critical, but without an appropriate budget that addresses specific needs of men and women, all good effort will be in vain.


The Department of Women will be looking at developing a standardised gender-responsive budget framework for implementation by the department. A gender-responsive budget is not a separate budget for women and men, but a budget that is carefully planned for the achievement of gender equality. That is why it is important to us...


... jaaka re le basadi ba ba tlhokofadiwang gore matlole ao a tla abelwang lefapha a tla dirisediwa go dira melao le go e tsenyatirisong. Seno se tla netefatsa gore tekanyetsokabo ya bomme ba ba rekisang makwinya le ditlhapi kwa gae e nne teng. Gape lefapha le tla netefatsa gore fa le neela batho ditšhono tsa kgwebo le bone ba fiwa tšhono eno. Ka jalo, lefapha leno le tshwanetse go nna teng gore le kgone go tsenya melao eno mo tirisong. Fa le se na tšhelete, ga le kitla le kgona go dira gore melao eno e tsenngwetirisong.


Botlhe ba ba sa rateng tswelelopele ba tla re lefapha leno ga le na mosola e bile ga le a tshwanela go nna teng. Ke batla go ba gopotsa gape gore lefapha leno le agilwe bošwa. Pele e ne e le Lefapha la Basadi, Bana le Batho ba ba nang le Dikgwetlho, jaanong le fetogile, ke Lefapha la Bomme fela. A re se kopanyeng dilo tse pedi tse, di farologane.


Kwa Mangaung, Moporesitente o ne a bona gore mafapha ano a kgaogangwe gonne a le botlhokwa. Jaaka mokgatlho wa ANC, re bona botlhokwa jwa gore fa sengwe se sa siama re se baakanye. Ka mafoko ano, re le ANC re tshegetsa tekanyetsokabo eno gore e tsenngwetirisong. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)


[... as women who are harassed that the funds that will be allocated to the department will be used to make laws and implement them. This will ensure that women who sells fat cakes and fish at home are also included in the budget. The department will also ensure that when giving people business opportunities they, too, get the same opportunity. So, this department must be available so that it can implement these laws. Without funding, they will not be able to implement these laws.


All those who doesn’t like progress will say this department is useless and not supposed to be there. I want to remind them that this department has been transformed. Before it was called Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities, now it has changed, it is called Department of Women only. Let us not combine these two, they are different.


In Mangaung, the President realised that these department must be separated because they are important. As the ANC we realise the importance of fixing what is broken. With these words, the ANC support this budget vote to be implemented.]


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 14 — Basic Education — put.


Declarations of vote:

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I wish to make the following declaration on Budget Vote No 14—Basic Education. Recently released reports paint a very bleak picture of the state of education in South Africa with South African children’s reading skills falling behind those of their international counterpart and only half of Grade 3 learners identified as being effectively literate. The department’s priorities should ensure that every child must be able to read independently and with understanding by the age of eight. This will enable our youth to succeed in life. In order to achieve this goal, the department must ensure that every Foundation Phase teacher is fully capable of teaching children to read.


There are no easy short-term fix and more worryingly, no long-term solutions unless our classrooms are sorted out. The department’s main focus is Back to Basics. Today, more than ever, we need to look at quality of education especially the Foundation Phase of schooling to allow South Africans to have more opportunities. This is the only way we will get more young people employed and grow our economy. The DA objects to this budget. I thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, let me start by conceding that indeed a lot of changes have taken place in education. For example, in KwaZulu-Natal before 1994 there were four different administrations of education and there was a lot of work done to put together those four different administrations so that we have one administration for the province and for the country. We do accede that today in our poor schools children are not paying and are given food. But we are also in the same vein supporting this vote with concerns in that, firstly, the union Sadtu is destroying education in the country. Our concern is that Sadtu is an affiliate of Cosatu and Cosatu is in alliance with the ANC and the ANC is governing the country. As a result, when some of these shenanigans happen in our schools, caused by Sadtu, the government is closing one eye and looking only with the other eye because the partner is messing up education. So we are saying to government, it is time that they begin to sort out the issues that happen out there, caused by an alliance of the government, and that are messing up education.


Secondly, it is a concern to us that this thing is continuing - the divide - that if you are moneyed in South Africa you get quality education and if you are poor you get poor quality education. This must come to an end. Education must be equal. This thing of people who are unwilling to provide adequate services to poor communities in the rural areas must be attended to, so that, even a person who lives in the poor community will be able to rise up because they also receive quality education. So we are saying these things have to be attended to, and can be attended to. What we need is the willingness to do so. The political willingness to sort out the issues must be there so that we can get equal education throughout the country. Thank you. [Applause.]


Ms L L ZWANE: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf the ANC I wish to say that we are going to support the budget for the following reasons: Firstly, when the ANC took over the government of this country in 1994, the state of education was in complete disarray. There was literally no planning for the education particularly of black children. From 1994, the ANC-led government has made tremendous progress in ensuring that the state of affairs is turned around. Also in keeping with prescripts of the Freedom Charter, the ANC-led government has opened many doors for learning irrespective of whether a person is rich or poor. We’ve worked very hard as ANC to standardise and equalise the education system.


Yes, we do acknowledge that we have not reached a stage where we say that our education system is perfect, but we have done a lot. And some of the things that have been done, for instance the delivery of learner-teacher support material is now timeous to the extent that the Department of Education is just about to reach a stage where there is one textbook for each learner in each and every subject. With regard to upgrading, development and placement of teachers, there are tangible programmes whereby teachers are taken to teacher centres in order to ensure that they are capacitated particularly in subjects that have been giving us a problem over the years because of apartheid, namely Mathematics, Science and Technology.


The issue of library services that seeks to address the problem of inability to read on the side of the learners is the top priority for the department. The department is bias towards the development of areas that are rurally based. We, as the ANC have been able to rope in all the partners as well as the society because we have always maintained that education is a societal issue. This is also in keeping with the prescripts of the National Development Plan, NDP, which says that early childhood development is critical if we are going to be able to adequately develop the human capital needed in order to progress and make a meaningful contribution in the economy of the country. Therefore the Department of Education is doing everything possible and deploying resources in ensuring that we train the practitioners for Early Childhood Development, ECD, and to deliver quality education. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. [Time expired.]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, just a few concerns. We are supporting the budget, but we have few concerns, and one of them is the issue of mud schools. One would have thought that by now we would have gotten rid of the mud schools, but if you go to rural areas there are still quite a lot of mud schools and kids are still taught outside. Secondly, it’s what the hon member from the IFP was saying. In rural schools there are no enough teachers and some school don’t have teachers at all. And also some of these rural schools have got no furniture. Those are our concerns as the UDM. Thank you.


Division demanded.


The Council divided:


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng, W T; Mampuru, T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius,

J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 15 – Higher Education and Training – put.


Declarations of vote:

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Thank you Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I wish to make the following declaration on Budget Vote 15 - Higher Education and Training.


Although the quality of education offered at our tertiary institutions and universities is of a general high standard, the funding opportunities for needy students are very limited. The flagship funding mechanism, the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, continues to place administrative burden on needy students, whilst the limited funds allocated to this scheme and the criteria to determine how and to whom funding is allocated limits the opportunities afforded to these students to create opportunities for their future.


The proposal that NSFAS will execute and disburse funds by themselves by setting up offices at higher education institutions will be a waste of time, effort, money and other resources. The money could be better spent on actual bursaries awarded to students. We must learn to trust the administrative processes put together by the higher education institutions to manage NSFAS. The DA can therefore not support this budget. I thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you Chairperson, we support the budget but we would like to request the department to attend to a number of issues that we have raised in the past. The first one is pertaining to corruption at NSFAS. I am aware that the department is attending to that; but the problem with corruption at NSFAS is the Means Test. The Means Test is not adequate because it is not able to detect those people who are defrauding the system. When that happens, the really deserving cases are suffering because the funds at NSFAS are not able to pay for all our students at tertiary institutions. Therefore, it is important that the real deserving cases get the benefit of NSFAS and those who are defrauding the system must be stopped, in fact, they must be dealt with.


Secondly, we would also like to raise the issue of the conditions of service in respect of Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET colleges, what is happening there is that some of the staff members are still temporary and some are still earning less than their counter parts. This happens because when they were absorbed by the Department of Higher Education and Training, some of them still continued to get their salaries from the institutions whereas others are not getting their salaries in that way. Therefore, it is important that conditions of service be the same to all the staff at the TVET colleges. That will encourage them to produce to the best of their ability. I thank you, Chairperson.


Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC, I wish to state that the ANC supports the Budget Vote for the following reasons:


Firstly, the Department of Higher Education and Training has been doing a lot of good work in terms of ensuring that we get the skilled and capable workforce to support the inclusive growth path as per the mandate of the department in terms of Outcome 5 of the 14 Outcomes of government.


The issue that is being raised of allegations about NSFAS is an issue that was discussed and the Minister of Higher Education and Training assured the committee that that issue is being looked into; because at this level it is simply an allegation. So, an investigation is being instituted to ensure that the department is looking into the issues that people are raising about NSFAS not being properly administered.


We also want to support this programme because it looks at the issue of skills, which is very important. This country is running short of artisans in particular. The TVET colleges play a major role in terms of ensuring that we do get these artisans as well as the Sitas because if we are going to turn the economy around, we need skilled personnel who are going to make a meaningful contribution.


We are sure that the R41,8 billion that has been allocated to the Department of Higher Education and Training, which is increased by R2,9 billion, is going to be used for a good purpose. The issues of migration processes and lecturers at TVET colleges, has been completely successful. All that is required now is to ensure that there is standardisation of salaries because the migration process was completed in April this year. So the department is still in the process of ensuring that those existing disparities are being addressed by the departments.


We also applaud the fact that the budget is going to be used to ensure that we get more PhD graduates because we have a problem of knowledge in economy. We need to ensure that there are people who graduate in Professorship and are a resource for the kind of expertise and knowledge that we need as a country.


Therefore, Chairperson, for those reasons, I want to submit that the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.


Mr L B GAEHLER: Thank you Chairperson, the UDM support the budget but just a few issues, one or two. The issue of NSFAS is quite true that it is being abused and there is no proper monitoring in that.


Secondly, the poorest of the poor students sometimes do not benefit out of that. For instance, the students at the King Hintsa FET College in Idutywa, are not getting their certificates because the money has not been paid. This is affecting the poorest of the poor.


Lastly, we are also concerned about the infrastructure at the institution of higher learning. The infrastructure is totally deteriorating. So those are our concerns. Thank you.


Division demanded.


The Council divided.


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng, W T; Mampuru, T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance Dissenting).


Vote No 16 – Health – put.


Declarations of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chair, the Health Budget is more than just deciding on calculations and figures. It is a budget that directly impacts the livelihoods of our citizens. It is also a budget specifically of interest to the National Council Office of Provinces because 90% of the budget is allocated to provinces. The poor performance of provincial health departments, their inability to uphold the standards of the Office of Health Standards Compliance, bad political leadership and incompetent officials calls that far more responsibility should be put on national Department of Health to conduct national oversight of our health system. For example, in the Northern Cape, the mental health hospital in Kimberly is now being built for the past six years at the budget that started out at R320 million in 2010. The cost has escalated now to R1,2 billion. Three other hospitals could have been built.


Recent reports indicates that basic conditions in hospitals are at a critical state where staff and essential medicine shortages are resulting in the mistreatment of patients. These issues have to be addressed urgently. More emphasis should be given to training medical staff so that more people can be employed faster than more South Africans can benefit from adequate healthcare.


Today we find the National Health Laboratory Services, NHLS, experiencing major staff losses and one of the biggest factors that has contributed to this is the R4,5 billion owed to the NHLS with Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal being major culprits. They are unable to pay service providers and suppliers.


Co-operation between various departments is crucial to ensure that these types of situations are addressed, and so that every South African receives the basic healthcare that they deserve - being able to visit the hospital, receive helpful service and see the doctor timeously with the correct diagnosis and stock medicines - in order to get better. The DA can therefore not support this budget. Thank you.


Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, the UDM is concerned about the state of our clinics and hospitals. Our clinics are deteriorating. They are in a very bad state. For your information, even the new Nelson Mandela Academic Hospital does not receive any maintenance. That is the truth of the matter. Injalo. [It is like that.] Yeka ukujonga ecaleni. [Stop looking on the sides.] ... [Interjections.] ... Sister, can you help me, we have a problem here. Uyahlupha lo sisi [This lady is troublesome.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, order, order, hon members! Let us allow the party to make its declarations.


Mr L B GAEHLER: In other words as the UDM we say, the health department must have a proper maintenance programme. Secondly, if could go to hospitals that are out there in the villages, they are in a very, very bad state. It is appalling. Some of them are in a very bad state. So, that is our concern as the UDM. Nevertheless we are supporting this budget. Thank you.


Ms M F TLAKE: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC-led government we support Vote No 16. The Department of Health’s spending focus over the next three years, 2015-16 and 2017-18 known as the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, will continue to be on increasing life expectancy and reducing the burden of diseases by revitalising hospitals, providing special tertiary services and preventing the treatment of Human Immunodeficiency Virus, HIV, and the Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, Aids. Thus the bulk of the department’s budget over the medium-term is allocated to the revitalisation of hospitals’ health facilities, tertiary health services, human resource development programme and the comprehensive HIV and Aids conditional grant in the HIV and Aids, TB, Maternal and Child Health Programme.


Nationally, all individual government departments’ budgets are guided by the National Development Plan, NDP. The NDP identifies demographic burden of diseases health system and the social and environmental determination of health as the key areas for intervention in order to improve the life system of the country. Those form a fundamental reform of the country’s health system which will be required in order to address these issues.


The Minister of Health, Dr Aaron Motsoaledi, has confirmed that the challenges within provinces are immense. This relates especially to provinces which receive disclaimers and qualified audits from the Auditor-General. The challenges are also global and include, among others, issues relating to capacity such as financial and human personnel without heads of departments and chief financial officers. Departments struggle to achieve their targets and mandates and this is completely understandable.


Furthermore, challenges relate to leadership and governance, access to medicine, shortage of trained staff, upgraded information system, financial and delivery system.


The ANC supports the department through oversight of operations and policy prescripts. [Time expired.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, just a reminder - you have three minutes to make a declaration.


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, while the IFP supports this vote, we do so with concerns. We continue to be concerned with the shortage of skills in some areas of this department. This has led to some practices that are really not acceptable, where a wrong incentive is being used in some areas. When we visited the Eastern Cape as the select committee, we found that doctors at Mthatha General Hospital are used to also provide services in rural hospitals. But when they go there they charge a fee. These are doctors who are employed by government, but when they go and service another government hospital which is rural they charge a fee. That is not acceptable.


We also learned, yesterday, of something very shocking. The Northern Cape has been unable to finish building a hospital which they started 10 years ago. Those are the issues which need to be attended to.


We are also concerned that people in the rural areas are not getting adequate services. There are mobile units provided which are a temporary measure, but those responsible for these mobile units do not want to go to the deeper rural areas, yet they are provided with adequate vehicles to go and service such areas. We, as the IFP, are saying those are all the issues that have to be attended to.


In the past we have stated that the Minister at national level has the vision for the department, but this does not translate to his counterparts in the provinces as a result the state of health in some provinces is crumbling as some of the MECs there, do not have the vision. They just do not know where to take the health department. That has to be attended to. Thank you.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 17 – Social Development – put and agreed to.


Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, we don’t have an objection, but the DA wishes to make a declaration. May I proceed? On my oversight visits to my province which is the Free State, I came across staff members of the Department of Correctional Services who have been begging the department for basic uniforms for more than six years. From a parliamentary question resulting thereof, it would appear that mine is not the only province where this is happening. Inmates have to wear civilian clothes under the rags they are given in winter to ensure that they don’t freeze to death, adding to the risk of an increase in the number of escapees. Mattresses, stationery and other basics are also seemingly too expensive.


Then, the most neglected aspect of the entire budget is the most important function of the department – that of rehabilitation. We still don’t know how many offenders become reoffenders. So, we can’t assess whether the department is actually succeeding in its primary function. This, whilst a healthy chunk of the rehabilitation budget is being spent on entertaining and pampering some staff members accompanying offenders on programmes designated for this purpose.


However, with the appointment at last of the department’s new permanent chief financial officer and hopefully also a permanent national commissioner, we can hope to see some stability in its leadership. We would like to see the department’s new proposals around parole succeed. We would like to see the department taking greater action against the smuggling of, least of all, cellphones into prisons. We in the committee would like to see more of the department itself. Thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the concerns we have in respect of Correctional Services relate to the information technology system of the department, which is not adequate. The department cannot tell how many prisoners it has. It gives two conflicting numbers when it is asked during the audit. As a result, in the audit report it cannot tell South Africa how many prisoners it has. We don’t have that information.


There is also instability at leadership. You seldom get a commissioner who finishes a term in this department and as a result management is very, very poor because people come and go now and again. There is the practice of the dumbing down of responsibilities to the regions. As a federalist, I have no problem with responsibilities being given to the regions. However, the problem is that the regions are not capacitated; yet, they are given more work which they can’t do at national level. Regions must be properly capacitated and when responsibilities get to them they must have been capacitated for those responsibilities. The attitude of management towards issues raised at their internal audits is always very negative. As a result, this department has continually been getting adverse findings year after year because when they are given issues during their internal audits, they consider these nonissues. Yet, these issues go to the Auditor-General.


Lastly, we are again concerned that there was an issue that came out in social media newspapers where two specific girls who are related to certain people in management in this department ...


... babonakala bedansa phezu kwenqwaba yezincwadi zokufaka isicelo somsebenzi. Udaba luthi ufaka incwadi yesicelo somsebenzi ngoba kukhangisiwe kodwa incwadi yakho iyolahlwa laphaya, ngeke inakwe ngoba bayaziwa abantu abazoqashwa ukuthi bangobani. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[... they are seen dancing on top of a hip of application forms for employment. It is said that you send your application letter for employment because there was an advertisement for a vacancy but your application will be thrown away, and it won’t be considered because the people to be employed are already known.]]


However, we have not heard this department responding to that issue and that is a concern. It boils down to the fact that even with regard to the issue of employment there is corruption. They apply but they already know who is going to be employed. Thank you.


Mr E M MLAMBO: Hon Deputy Chair, the endgame of Correctional Services is the eradication of crime and the drastic reduction of our present population. Crime is antipeople; it terrorises communities; it is counterprogressive; and it erodes the freedom that so many people sacrificed their lives for. In a quest to realise a better life for our people, crime is counter-revolutionary.


As the ANC and our caring government, we are saying that offenders must be rehabilitated. That is why we are saying to members of this august House that the NCOP must support this Budget Vote so that we can assist offenders to be reintegrated back into society so that they can add value within their communities. Thank you very much.


Vote agreed to.


Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.


Division demanded.


The Council divided:


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng,W T; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put and agreed to.


Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.


Declaration of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, one cannot budget for the Department of Justice if the justice it is supposed to serve is nonexistent. More and more the department seems to only exist to serve the interests of one man whilst the general justice system is deteriorating. The NPA is further slipping into the black hole this government led it to and our criminal justice system does not enjoy the faith and trust of the people of this country. This is further underlined by the department’s gross disrespect for chapter 9 institutions and their independence.


Government is using this budget granted by taxpayers and this department itself in order to destroy our democratic institutions one by one. Despite the hardwork of many individuals here and there these efforts are meaningless if the independence of the judiciary is not respected and court orders are not adhered to by the state. If the state will not respect the courts disrespect for the same courts on the side of civil society would soon follow. We cannot support more taxpayers’ money being to be wasted by keeping criminals out of court. We also cannot support more taxpayers’ money being wasted on serving doubtful characters in power whilst the people are experiencing no justice at all.


In matters of justice there are no large or small problems, the Minister should first get this right. We cannot support this Budget.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 22 – Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration – put and agreed to.


Vote No 23 – Police – put.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chairperson, the hon Minister is entrusted with the largest budget in the security and justice cluster of taxpayers’ money to ensure the protection of the South African public. It seems as if the Minister misunderstands this role and that he seemingly under the impression that his chunk of the taxpayers’ money in the form of his salary is a token of gratitude for his protection of the President. Millions of rands are at the same time spent on golden handshakes and legal bills in which the Minister repeatedly ignores court rulings, then he appeals, loses again and then ignores them again at the taxpayers expense. The unlawful arrests, the deployment of the police in Parliament and the assault of DA members outside of Parliament on the day of the opening of Parliament are some further wasteful spending of taxpayers’ money. Let alone the escorting genocide murderers all the way on the escape from Waterkloof Air Force Base and then the infamous 1438 criminals within the department who continue to draw salaries at the taxpayers expense this whilst the police in our provinces in the ground are deprived of basic tools of trade such as vehicles or are simply understaffed which contributes to the department’s failure to perform results, least of all in our most rural communities and on our farms. Those few honest police members who do us proud are grossly underappreciated and under supported. We cannot support this budget. Thank you.

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, the ANC supports Budget Vote 23 considering that the SA Police Service strategic plan complement our vision to transform the SAPS and align it to the mandate of the Constitution and our policy position as the ANC to prevent, combat and investigate crime; maintain public order; protect and secure the inhabitants of the republic and their property; uphold and enforce the law. Today we have a police service that drives its functions that are co-operated with the community involvement through the Civilian Secretariat. We have a police service that hires professional staff that is equal to the task.


Hon Deputy Chairperson, our police service is no longer the brutal South African Police Force that killed and murdered our people using its ammunition under the leadership of the apartheid regime; therefore, we support this Budget Vote. Thank you.


Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, iqembu leNkatha nakuba lilesekela leli voti kodwa siyafisa ukusho ukuthi, okokuqala, ake kuyekwe ukuthathwa abantu nje benziwe abaphathi, osigaxamabhande embuthweni wamaphoyisa. Umuntu owujenene ophethe amaphoyisa, ukhomishane omkhulu kumele kube ngusigaxamabhande owufundele lo msebenzi, kuyekwe ukuthathwa nje kwabantu emgwaqweni benziwe ojenene bamaphoyisa.


Okwesibili, amaphoyisa kumele aholelwe kangconywana mhlawumbe azokwazi ukuba nogqozi nofuqufuqu nokuthi abhekane futhi agqolozelane ngqo nobugebengu. Okwesithathu, amaphoyisa mawanikezwe izinsizakusebenza ezifanele ikakhulukazi ezindaweni ezisemakhaya. Esikuqaphelayo ukuthi izinsizakusebenza ezifana namaveni okusebenza zintuleka kakhulu. Okokugcina, nanoma ngike ngakusho lokhu mhla sikhuluma noNgqongqoshe khona kule Ndlu, ukuthi azikho iziteshi zamaphoyisa ebantwini abahlala ezindaweni ezisemakhaya kuze kube namhlanje. Selokhu kwaba khona lezo ezakhiwa ngaphambi kowe-1994 kuphela, esisha nje isiteshi samaphoyisa emakhaya aKwaZulu-Natali esakhiwe yilo hulumeni, ngisho esokushaya inja, asikho. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Mr M KHAWULA: Although the IFP supports the Budget Vote, we wish to say that, firstly, let’s stop taking unskilled people to be managers and senior officials in the police force. A person who is a General, in charge of the police officers, a Chief Commissioner must be well trained for the job, and we must refrain from taking anyone from the streets and making them Police Generals.


Secondly, the police officers must be paid better salaries maybe they will be motivated and have courage to fight crime. Thirdly, police officers should be given necessary resources especially in the rural areas. What we have noticed is that the resources such as police vehicles are very scarce. Lastly, although I mentioned it when we were talking to the Minister in this House, that there are no police stations in rural areas up to now. We still have those that were built before 1994, there is not even a single police station that was built by the current government.]]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, the UDM supports the vote, however, a few concerns and one of them is the instability in the top leadership of the police department. There are a whole lot of leaders who are suspended in the directorate of the police. Secondly, the morale of the police is very low and that is a major problem. It is important when a Commissioner of Police is employed we look at the career in policing. Now, we are sitting with a problem of a commissioner who was involved in the mowing down of our people in Marikana. Lastly, the very Minister has absorbed the President from the Nkandla report and that is not right. We really have those concerns about the Minister in the police service and the commissioner. Thank you.


Division demanded.


The Council divided:


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng,W T; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I wish to make the following declaration on Vote 24, Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. This department, as the mainstay of farming and land ownership, is emotionally tied to almost every South African. The ANC government has proven that they are irresponsible and nurturing an insecure environment for farming to operate in, and have made it nearly impossible for emerging farmers. Also, it lacks support to farmers and leaves them to fight for themselves. By cutting the department’s budget by between R158 million and R210 million per financial year over the next three years, will not help to create the one million jobs as per the National Development Plan, NDP.


According to the Absa Bank’s Agritrade document of 19 May this year, there has been a 50% decline in applications to buy agricultural land over the past two years. This is due to bad land reform policy that hampers investment in agriculture as well as political statements on land reforms and land use that create uncertainty.

This department is further overlooking a gold mine for job creation and food security by not investing in the potential of fresh water aquaculture. Freshwater aquaculture can contributes greatly to stimulate rural economy and supply cost effective protein diets as an alternative to chicken and beef.


The department must reassess its priorities and its leadership. The DA does not support the Budget Vote for the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. Thank you.


Mr O SEFAKO: Deputy Chairperson, the ANC outrightly supports Budget Vote 24 for the betterment of the lives of the poor. The indigenous people of South Africa made a living through the practice of animal husbandry and agronomy until such time where imperialists, colonialists and apartheid, in a brutal manner, dispossessed them of their land and forcefully remove them from the fertile and alluvial soil.


There is no way that the DA which is representing the interests of the rich can support this Budget Vote. We know very well that they are dancing to the tunes of their masters, the Americans and the Britons. The reason why they are so harsh to the President of the Republic of South Africa is indeed that he has grabbed the bull by its horns by addressing the land question which is the burning issue in our country. I thank you.


Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chairperson, we support the budget. However, we are concerned about the Fisheries department. When this department talks about fisheries they talk about the Western Cape and the Northern Cape, but we have an ocean that stretches to KwaZulu-Natal. It is a major concern because when we deal with fisheries we talk about two provinces. That is our first concern.


Our second concern is the improvement of animals in the rural areas. It is about 15 years back where this department said they will continue assisting rural areas in improving their animals so that they can make money out of them. That has not been done. There is nothing that we see on the ground.


Assistance to the rural people is not there at all. These are the things that we are really concerned about in this department. Thank you.


Division demanded.


The Council divided:


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng, W T; Mampuru, T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 25 – Economic Development – put.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 26 – Energy – put.


Declaration(s) of Vote:

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chair, the DA cannot support this Budget Vote because this department is responsible for the electricity security but fails in its mandate and there are electricity blackouts. Further predictions are that this may last for another three years, if not five. It continued to make poor policy decisions over the past 17 years. In spite of experts’ advice it continued to commit itself to unaffordable solutions based on outdated information.


The department and the hon Minister are openly disregarding the Constitution and the supply chain management regulations in terms of the Russian agreement in favour of the build-own-operate privileges which was deliberately against the legal advice of the State Law advisors. The Minister is not tabling the International Atomic Energy Agency’s report about the preparedness of this country for the proposed nuclear programme; is not publishing the draft regulations for the nuclear build programme; is not publishing a costing plan upfront for the nuclear build programme leaving vast opportunities for tenderpreneurs in this programme; is dragging feet in bringing the Independent System and Market Operator, Ismo, Bill, back to Parliament; and the war room, which this department is a key member for the electricity crisis in the country, is playing political football with South Africa’s economy. Thank you.


Mr E MAKUE: Deputy Chairperson, the position of the ANC is obviously to support this very important Vote, the Energy department. We feel that it is a key in driving our economy.


In the ANC we have a historic document that we call strategy and tactics. In that document we have a lot. There is a time to boycott and there is time to co-operate; there is a time for nonco-operation and there is a time to put our shoulders to the wheel. And this is the time on energy in our country. If we want the NDP to achieve, it is important that the Western Cape government supports – as it is supporting and we appreciate - how we should contribute towards energy in driving the National Development Plan.


In this document we are talking about renewable and sustainable sources of energy for this country. We are also looking in the Budget Vote at long-term solutions. It is important for us to know that if you are going to be in government for a long time, you must plan for long time, and not take these empty threats that are coming on our way.


The energy to and for our people is something that we know. Our people have been historically denied and we cannot support a position where people want to continue with that denial about the people who have been historically disadvantaged. We expected the hon member to talk about nuclear energy and Koeberg Power Station. The Minister has answered them yesterday. I don’t know what more can we say if you are talking to people who are irrational and hard of hearing.


The electricity blackouts, we have said and the Minister said it yesterday, is not something that has happened. We have power shedding in this country and not electricity backlogs.


Regarding the Russian agreement, we quite understand where the hon members are coming from. We are saying that we are continuing with that and it is work in progress. We will continue as the ANC and as government to be transparent in the processes as we have been with all other energy sources.


We are finally saying that we have the Koeberg Nuclear Power Station here in the Western Cape and it is working very well. We have drawn lessons from that and we will make sure as this government that we continue with the cheapest energy sources that can help us drive this economy and create a South Africa that we can all be proud of. Thank you very much, Chair.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Declarations of vote:

Mr W F FABER: The core task of the Department of Labour is to ensure that true sustainable and legal jobs are created in our country. Every single South African, irrespective of the circumstances of their birth must be able to enjoy the freedoms that our hard fought democracy gave them. Every single South African must have an opportunity to use these freedoms to improve himself in an environment that is fair to everyone taking into consideration our tragic history.


The Department of Labour should be at the centre of our country’s drive to create an environment that will enhance better and new jobs. There is a massive difference between the day to day running and challenges faced by small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs in South Africa versus that of big commercial and industrial businesses. The Department of Labour does not understand this difference and current labour legislation reflects this lack of understanding. If South Africa is to succeed in making SMMEs the focal point of our economic growth the Department of Small Business Development must succeed. Small enterprises have shown a remarkable capacity to absorb labour and this is what we need in South Africa. I thank you.


Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, I’m very embarrassed that a member of the select committee that deals with labour gets up and talks about SMMEs and small business development when we are talking about labour matters, two completely different departments in this government. But, one of the great American Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, said that you cannot fool all the people all the time. I think the people can see through this position of the DA when they come here they talk about job creation and when we have to allocate money so that the department that is responsible for creating jobs is able to do so, they withhold their support. Our people are looking at that and they are seeing it. You cannot fool all the people all the time.


However, more seriously than that, our Constitution in section 23 has a very important clause and I will just read the heading where it talks about labour relations. It says “Everyone has the right to fair labour practices.” More important than that is section 13 of our Constitution, which talks about slavery servitude and forced labour and says “No one may be subjected to slavery, servitude or forced labour.” And this is a right that is nonderogable. Now, let me help the DA members understand what that means. It means that it is an absolute right.


People have the right in this country to work and people must see how people withhold the potential of government because they know how great the potential of government is to create sustainable and decent jobs for people in this country. We will continue to do that without them because we know that through the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, we have the support of the private sector, government, trade unions and civil society in that forum.


Finally, I just want to say that we will not rest as the ANC until the child of a farm worker has the same opportunities for decent employment as the child of the farm owner. Thank you.


Declarations of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The aim of this department is compliance to legislation promoting sustainable resources and the management of our minerals over the medium and long-term periods. Eighty-one percent of their budget is focussed on these programmes. Shale gas is a critical consideration with the exploration expected to contribute to economic growth and job creation. The DA has urged the department to prove that the impact of fracturing is thoroughly investigated and that the published regulations ensure that fracturing will be seen as a major economic positive instead of an environmental dilemma with long lasting effects on future generations.


Although the mineral policy and promotion programme where 53,8% of the department’s budget is being spent to attract investments through promoting South Africa’s mining and petroleum sectors, South African mining has entered a period of declining confidence. This government still does not understand the importance of mining as a means to power, economic growth and job creation.


Policy uncertainty has contributed to under investment in the sector while unions exploit the situation. Mining currently accounts for some 60% of export by value and is thus vital to the health of this country’s balance of payment. For the mining sector to be the key driver of economic growth and investment, this sector requires policy certainty and an efficient predictable regulatory environment. Due to these reasons, the DA does not support the Budget Vote on Mineral Resources. I thank you.


Mr A S SINGH: The mandate of the Department of Mineral Resources is to promote and regulate the mineral and the mining sector for transformation, growth, development and ensure that the citizens of this country deserve sustainable benefits from the country’s mineral wealth. The Freedom Charter states that people shall share in the wealth and the mineral wealth beneath the soil shall be transferred to ownership of the people as a whole.

The department has provided a strategic plan that covers the three imperatives namely transformation, growth and development. We are confident that the strategic plan is realistic and achievable. It is important that the full potential of the mineral resources and mining industry be achieved for the economy of this country. We fully support the Minister and his Deputy Minister for the leadership they have always provided and they will receive our support and co-operation with the transformation agenda, growth and development in the mineral resources. We, in the ANC, will have no hesitation in supporting this Budget Vote.


Declarations of vote involved only in the wheeling of the power

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: The DA would like to make the following declaration on the Department of Small Business Development’s Budget Vote. The only way to fight the crippling unemployment and poverty in South Africa is to create 1 million entrepreneurs. Government will not create these entrepreneurs, but ordinary South Africans who have the potential within them will. Government must create an enabling environment for these ordinary South Africans to flourish.


Small enterprises have the capacity to absorb labour and that is what we need in South Africa. Unfortunately, South Africa has one of the highest failure rates in the world for small business. The biggest reason for this is the massive red tape and regulations that small businesses have to navigate in order to be successful. This department should follow the DA’s proposal of setting up opportunity centres in all townships and rural areas. One stop shops for business licensing, financial and non-financial support and training.


We need a different approach to financing small business. Government must withdraw from direct lending and establish a national venture capital fund managed by private sector professionals, but with Ministerial oversight. We should also start changing the mind-set of South Africans through better education and training. The department should help drive the change in this regard. We must equip the youth with skills that will enable them to start and run a business. This cannot be done at an ad hoc basis, but must be a continuous process to cultivate an entrepreneurial mind-set starting at school already.


This department should be at the focal point of the economic policy. If we fail to do so, we would lose more years in addressing the huge imbalances in our country and we cannot afford that. Thank you.


Ms M C DIKGALE: Small business in South Africa is like the story of David and Goliath. When we read in the Bible we come across the book of the kings where David killed Goliath with a small stone. That was a defeat for the Israelites and their dreams were realised. The ANC supports this Budget Vote because small business plays an important role in society. They fuel the dreams of our entrepreneurs and have been the focus of economists.


I know people believe that larger firms are the most important factor when it comes to driving economic growth. No, they are not correct. Small business contributes more than their share. With small business the entrepreneurs and innovators support the vitality of our communities. They are the engines of job creation in my province.


Batswadi bao ba dumelago go yona ba godiša bana ba bona gabotse. Ka go rialo, re le ANC re re a ba tšwele pele ba dule mebileng, ba šomiše sekhutlo se sengwe le se sengwe seo se šomišegago go kgobokeletša bana ba bona se sengwe. Re re ka ge mmušo wo o etilwego pele ke ANC o ba dumelela a ba tšwele pele. A ba bone gore mmušo wo o dira tše botse e bile o a ba rata. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)


[Parents who are street vendors provide for their children well. In that way, as the ANC we say let them continue to be street vendors and use every corner for their business site in order to earn a living. As the ANC-led government gives them permission, let them continue to do so. Let them realise that this government is doing good and that it cares.]


Vote No 32 – Telecommunications and Postal Services – put.


Declarations of vote:

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, we cannot support this Vote based on the following. The announcement of the broadband roll-out inspired hope for those who were touted as the focus of the endeavour – the rural communities that have a desperate need to be connected to the rest of the country and the world.


In a country where unemployment is at its highest, especially amongst our youth, broadband roll-out is, and has been cited as such by other departments, one of the key enablers for successful delivery in those departments, as envisaged by the National Development Plan, the New Growth Path, various strategic integrated projects, SIPs, etc. So, as a crosscutting and enabling platform for both economic development that should lead to job creation, hon Makue, and infrastructure development, one wonders whether those most affected by this will not have their hopes deferred and reduced to despair.


However, the failure to drive the strategy for broadband infrastructure is causing this state asset to bleed skilled staff. The failure to deliver a policy direction, as required by law, to prevent bureaucratic processes that are delaying the broadband infrastructure roll-out is because of the desperate lack of will and capacity in this department. Based on the above, the DA does not support this Budget Vote.


Me E PRINS: Adjunkvoorsitter, die ANC ondersteun begrotingspos 32 se begroting van R1,4 miljard. Ons is seker dat die fondse goed versprei is tussen die programme, en daarom sê die ANC dat ons hierdie begroting ondersteun. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Ms E PRINS: Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 32’s budget of R1,4 billion. We are certain that the funds will be distributed well between the programmes, and therefore the ANC says that we support this budget.]


In our interaction with the department, we were impressed by its understanding of the huge responsibility bestowed upon it in taking the country’s ICT sector to the next level. They understand this and are very clear that their mobility will absolve them from hitting the ground running. They are an organised team, diligent, and passionate about what they do. As Parliament, we take note of this, particularly of how they have planned to align ICT policies with the objectives of the National Development Plan.


We would also like to emphasise the importance of the SA Post Office, Sapo, and the services it provides to our people. The Post Office has carried out its developmental mandate with distinction, and some of the challenges it faces, especially at operational level, partly are due to fulfilling its developmental mandate. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 33 – Tourism – put and agreed to.


Vote No 34 – Trade and Industry – put.


Declarations of vote:

Mr W F FABER: The DA has a declaration of vote on Vote No 34: Trade and Industry, Deputy Chairperson. As the DA, we believe that freedom is not a favour granted by government; it is a right. The freedoms intended by the framers of our Constitution were hard won for all of us, are precious and must be guarded.


Access is opportunity and gives life and meaning to our hard-won freedoms. We believe every South African must have the chance to succeed in life. That is why we believe in spreading opportunity as broadly as possible. The current broad-based black economy empowerment, BBBEE, policy and how it is being implemented by the ANC do not share the benefits broadly with previously disadvantaged South Africans. It does not share the benefits with individuals, families, and communities. There is such a deeply entrenched culture in the ANC of enriching the closely connected few to the ANC elite that it has lost sight of the goal of BBBEE and only pays lip service to it.


The fact that we have still not made the significant progress we should have 21 years into our new democracy testifies to this. The DA firmly believes government’s focus should be on empowering and advancing those who were left out of the economy and trapped in unemployment, rather than those who are already enriched and in ownership. The DA champions opportunity over handouts. In contrast, the ANC only serves to further enrich the few connected. The DA will continue to ensure that black economy empowerment is truly broad based for the benefit of millions of disempowered South Africans who remain outside our economy. Thank you.


Mr B G NTHEBE: My thing was not working, Deputy Chair, but it is alright. [Laughter.] Unlike others, Deputy Chair, I am fully alert.


You cannot talk about true freedom when you do not want to support a budget that is meant to create a dynamic and competitive economic space. You cannot begin to talk about creating freedom for everybody when you want to declare against the same budget that is rooted in inclusive growth and development. You cannot stand up and declare against a budget that is supposed to be shifting the focus from a commodity-driven economy to one that is inclusive, that allows for everyone to participate.


When you stand up here and make a declaration against this Budget Vote, you are negating the 75% localisation trajectory we want to pursue. How do you then begin to tell us about a conducive investment space when you don’t support a budget that says we want to secure five investors for each district municipality? How do you stand up and not support a Budget Vote that has brought about pipeline in this country worth R50 million in foreign direct investment? What about the R23 billion that are meant for black industrialists? You are talking about inclusiveness, but you do not want to support the R23 billion that is going to create black industrialists. [Interjections.]


An amount of R4,5 billion each has been earmarked for the support of women and youth in this country, but you talk about freedom and opportunity. What is that? What kind of an animal is that? [Interjections.] You talk about changing the structure of production and ownership, yet you want to hold on strongly to the current economic patterns in the country. Therefore, as the ANC, we stand up and want to say this is the Budget Vote that wants to take us forward, truly appreciating the dictates of the Freedom Charter – that there will be security and comfort. There will be work and security in the country. Thank you.


Mr A J NYAMBI: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I want to find out, as a House that represents the interests of provinces, whether it is parliamentary to represent a rural province and come here and oppose a budget that is rural biased.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is a point of debate at another level.


Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, the IFP supports Vote No 34: Trade and Industry. What we want to state is that, in the IFP’s view, Trade and Industry, Small Business Development and Economic Development should be one department.


Because of the payback attitude, we have three departments with three Ministers and three Deputy Ministers which, in our view, is wasteful expenditure. What we want to say is that these three departments should have been brought together because there is not even duplication but rather replication, and there is waste because of these departments having been separated in this manner. Therefore, we want to say, in future, this has to be reviewed and looked into because it is tapping into the very scarce resources the country has. Otherwise, we do support the budget. Thank you.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 35 — Transport—put.


Declarations of vote:

Mr W F FABER: Deputy Chair, Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa announced the reduction in nontack tariffs, but still did not listen to the people on the ground to scrap the e-tolling system which largely belongs to a foreign company. The largest portion of the budget also continues to be allocated roads, road-related activities and entities, and not to public transport sector. Government claims to enhance public transport as one of its priorities but it does not reflect that way in the budget. The promise from government to revive SA railways is also moving at a snail’s pace and thus putting huge pressure on our national road system, not even mentioning road deaths occurring everyday because of this.


We believe that metro rail should be placed on provinces with adequate budget to provide better services to our commuters. The DA does not support this votes.


Nom S G MTHIMUNYE: Sekela Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, ngencayalomNyango nangekhethu izulu lisinele nonyaka nje. Lisinele ngoba i-Moloto corridor ayiseselibhudango kodwana yinto ephilako. Ngitjho lokhu ngoba i- ... (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)


[Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, because of this Department, our province has benefited this year. We have benefited because the Moloto Corridor is no longer a dream, but a reality. I am saying this because the ...]


... Department of Transport has conceptualised itself or its core businesses as the heartbeat of the economy. On that basis, because of this massive project Moloto development corridor, a number of economic spin-offs will be triggered by merely implementing this railway, Moloto corridor.


Also one big project that was implemented more than 10 years ago, the Maputo Corridor, some of its anchor projects that have now become some kind recurs decimal will now be resurrected to become a reality. It is on this basis, amongst other, that as the ANC, we support this Budget Vote.


Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, firstly the IFP would like to state that the issue of e-tolls still remains a concern. The hon Deputy President should not be misled into thinking that there is already a solution. There is no solution. The people of South Africa have spoken and government must begin to listen and respond to what the people are saying. But it is very common that sometimes government just doesn’t want to listen to the people. Government must listen and respond to the wishes of the people.


I am glad that some years ago there was an issue about a tollgate on the N2 road just outside Durban in Isipingo. Last year in this very House, I asked the Minister of Transport, who then denied that there was anything like that, being proposed or planned by his department. And going forward I would still want to hold the hon Minister to her words when she gave confirmation in this House that there was no tollgate planned for Isipingo outside Durban.


I also would like talk about the gravel roads in the rural areas. As the IFP, we are concerned that the state of roads ...


... ezindaweni ezisemakhaya imigwago iyaqhubeka nokuthi ibe sesimweni sokungahambeki. Ngako-ke uhulumeni kufuneke azame ukuyibhekisisa indaba yokulungiswa kwemigwaqo yase makhaya. Okuvamise ukwenzeka ukuthi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[... in the rural areas continue to be bad. Therefore, the government must try and look at the issue of upgrading the roads in rural areas. What normally happens is that ...]


... provinces outsource the blading of roads in the rural areas. But in that blading of those gravel roads there is no value for money and no proper monitoring. As a result sometimes you will be told that work has been done when nothing has been done yet money has been paid by the government to the consultants who are said to be blading those roads in the rural area. That has to be attended. Poor monitoring of government money in work that is outsourced by the government must also be attended to.


Isishilo iNkatha: Ayihlale phansi! [The IFP has said it: Let there be calm!]]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Sekela Sihlalo, indawo yokuqala sifuna ukuba simbulele uMphathiswa kuba ngexesha lePasika, ebebonakala amagosa ezendlela kakhulu kwimigaqo emikhulu apho ebewathumele khona. Nangona kunjalo, okokuqala, sinenkxalabo yokuba ezi zinto zisenziwa ngamaxesha eKresimesi nangeePasika babe abantu besifa rhoqo kule migaqo mikhulu. Ngoko ke, siyacela kuMphathiswa ukuba athethe nabaPhathiswa bakhe kumaphondo ukuba amagosa ezendlela abonakale ezindleleni kuba abantu bethu bayafa.


Okwesibini, yinto yokuba noko siyacela, sibongoza ukuba kubekho umzila kaloliwe oza kudibanisa iMonti neThekwini. Kaloku ezi ndlela azinako ukuwuthwala umthamo weeteksi noxinano ezindleleni nazo zonke ezo zinto. Siyayicela loo nto ukuba ibekhona ukuze kuncedwe abantu noko sifane namanye amaphondo. Mawayeke ukujongelwa phantsi amanye amaphondo. Izinto maziyeke ukuphelela KwaZulu-Natala naseGauteng. Seso sicelo kuphela kwi-UDM, enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)


[Deputy Chairperson, we would like to thank the Minister because during Easter weekend, she deployed traffic officers and they were very visible on the roads. Although it is like that, firstly, we are worried that these things are done during Christmas and Easter weekends only, while the people are dying on these main roads. Therefore, we are asking the Minister to speak to her MECs to make sure that the traffic officers are visible on the roads all the time, because our people are dying.

Secondly, we are begging that a railway line be constructed which will merge East London and Durban. Of course these roads can’t handle the number of taxis and the congestion, and everything that goes with that. We are asking that the railway line be constructed so that people could be helped and we also have the same infrastructure as other provinces. This thing of looking down upon other provinces must end. The focus on KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng only must stop. It is our only plea as the UDM. Thank you.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I am advised that I can - because you are hon members – suspend ... [Interjections.] ... not unless there are serious physical pressing needs of other members.




The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can we do it in the next 10 to 15 minutes? [Interjections.] Are we sure? [Interjections.]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Sakuzichamela apha okanye siya kukhulula umchamo apha phantsi kwedesika. [We are going to urinate on ourselves or else we will urinate under the desk.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hayi! [No!]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Kha usikhulule imizuzu emihlanu. [Release us for five minutes please.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hayi! [No!]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Bakhulule noko kuba abanye baza kuzichamela apha. [Release them please, because people are going to urinate on themselves here.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hayi! [No!] Chair, we have got five to go.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay, there is a strong lobbying that we should continue to deal and fish with this. [Interjections.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, No!


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay, just stretch your legs for two minutes. [Interjections.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, are you now suspending the House? [Interjections.] Don’t go. No, no!




Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Look there, doors are opened.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The door should still be locked. The door should still be locked. [Interjections.]


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: There is absolute chaos in the House now.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, could we be in order. Could we please take our seats? Eh ... No, let me not comment on that. Can I put Vote 36?


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chair, on behalf of the DA I wish to make the following declaration on Budget Vote 36 – Water and Sanitation. The World’s Economic Forum’s 2015 global risk report indicated that water crisis is it’s highest concern and that the Department of Water and Sanitation’s massive R16.5 billion budget should be utilised to address the country’s dire water crisis. It is indicated that 65% of our river systems are now so polluted that they are no longer good for agricultural use and that farmers will now need to set up purification plants in order to clean the water. For example, in North West the Madibeng Municipality is currently making headlines for the stink of corruption by Mr “Cash” that bankrupted the council to the extent that the sewage way is flowing freely into the Crocodile River cistern. In Limpopo, an acid spillage in Modimolle polluted the ecologically sensitive Nyl River cistern. The Mookgophong Local Municipality is supplying asbestos infected water to the community that might be the cause of massive spike in throat and stomach cancer cases.


With the country’s electricity crisis it is unclear how the department will ensure that Medupi has enough water supply to be able to operate without affecting other water users in an already water constraint area. It is estimated that water usage in South Africa would have grown to 2.7 billion cubic meters of water by 2030 leaving a mere 17% gap in supply and demand. The Department of Water and Sanitation has to start attending to these issues that rob our poor and defenceless communities of their basic human rights. The DA objects to Vote 36. Thank you.


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, the ANC supports the vote. As a responsible and caring organisation we cannot take our people from fetching water from rivers, put them where they are today and then take them back by objecting to this Vote. Hon Chair, we understand the EFF when it objects because they are new and for some other reasons that we do not know. However, the DA is responsible for certain municipalities in their province; their objection to this Vote shows us another character about them that we do not know. Maybe there is an element of ignorance or not understanding what they are doing or are they trying to outclass the EFF because that is what I see happening.


Hon Chair, you can’t ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order, hon members! Can we listen to the declaration of another political party just as we listened to the declaration of the DA.


Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, they can’t object to the basic right of the people. They have been busy asking for water from the service officers in the corner of this House but they are objecting to this Budget. Where are we going to get that water? When they arrive home they want to bath and do everything. They want us to close hospitals because you cannot run hospitals without water. They are so possessed with being the official opposition in such a way that they do wrong things in order to outclass the EFF. The EFF does not have a responsibility; however, they have a responsibility for the Western Cape Province. Do not be possessed by that. We therefore, as the ANC, because we care for the poor and vulnerable... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member, that is now directly engaging and drowning the speaker which is not correct to do, that is not hackling now. Okay.


Ms L C DLAMINI Hon Chair, we have committed to take South Africa forward. We therefore, as the ANC, support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]


Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, the UDM supports the Vote; however, we are concerned by about pollution in small municipalities, water leakages as well as the problem in some villages where pipes lead to dry taps. That is our concern. In most villages you find that taps and infrastructure is there but there is no water. Thank you.


Division demanded.


The Council divided:


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng,W T; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – put and agreed to.


Vote No 38 – Human Settlements – put.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the issue of human settlements in South Africa continues to be one of our biggest challenges and has a direct effect on our economy. Nondelivering and underspending are the two huddles that this department needs to overcome in order to achieve its target of creating 270 housing opportunities per year. Socially integrated and sustainable environment is one of the most important factors to live a prosperous life with dignity. This can be achieved by working together with local government, the private sector, our communities and by unifying and creating partnerships with each other.


The ANC national government has been successful in laying a solid and stable foundation for more inclusive society. This department must admit the decline of housing opportunities by 25% despite the budget allocations almost doubling. The DA does not support the Budget Vote on Human Settlement.


Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I wish to put it that we support this Vote for the following reasons: earlier this morning there was a robust debate regarding the delivering of houses including in the Western Cape. One was shuttered to note that the DA is hoping to deliver housing to the entire country when they are failing to deliver in the Western Cape let alone the upgrading of informal settlements. No country has ever delivered 3 million houses, nowhere in the world. This has happened simply because government is led by the ANC. Houses have been delivered in areas where nobody thought that they will be delivered. There are houses in rural areas under the amakhosi areas. There are houses in urban areas, there is rental housing stock whereby when people go to the cities to work there is provision of rental housing ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Zwane, I know that maybe I might not be the most handsome person [Laughter.] but can you please address me and then by so doing you will avoid that kind of interruption. Address me as a Chair.


Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you Chairperson.




Ms L L ZWANE: Do not worry, you are quite handsome. [Laughter.] For those that wish to go and work in the cities there is rental housing stock that is being provided, people are no longer live in dirty hostels as it used to be the case during the apartheid regime. There is spatial planning and planning for the provision of suitable human settlements. The President during the state of the nation address said that the provision of houses is not about providing a wall but it also goes together with amenities and it has to be close to areas of work. That is precisely what the ANC is delivering. For that reason, Chairperson, I think that we are more than proud to say that as the ANC we are going to support the Budget. The bulk infrastructure services by the municipalities is an issue that the ANC-led government is taking seriously because it is as a result of the apartheid system that we do not have the bulk infrastructure and now we have a duty to capacitate municipalities to connect the pipe so that we can be able to supply houses, electricity and all other amenities that people need. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Faber, you are rising on which point?


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, this declaration should be three minutes and the hon member is ... [Interjections.]




Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, you must be consistent.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can you please take your seat because the member is left with 23 seconds here. Continue, hon member.


Ms L L ZWANE: It is unfortunate that they are feeling bitter about it because they have failed the people of South Africa particularly in the Western Cape. Black people in the Western Cape are not properly taken care of in so far as housing development is concerned. Thank you.


Mnu M KHAWULA: Iqembu leNkatha lifisa ukuphawula kuMnyango Wezindawo Zokuhlaliswa Kwabantu ukuthi nakuba singamelene nokuphasiswa kwaleli Voti kodwa esikushoyo ukuthi lobo bugebengu obenziwa ngabanywe abantu abasezikhundleni, ngisho ubugebengu bokwakhiwa kwezindlu ezindaweni ezingafanele kusaqhubeka kanye nokuthi abantu abangafanele bakhelwe izindlu zikahulumeni, nako kusaqhubeka. Ake ngenze isibonelo, laphaya kuMasipala woGu, esigodini soMasipala woMuziwabantu e-Harding endaweni yenkosi yaseBashaweni abeshwayo, kunomsebenzi osebenza kwaMasipala woMuziwabantu okunendlu yomxhaso kubo. Njengoba ngikhuluma nje, loyo msebenzi akakwazi ukuyisusa ngoba indlu ayisukumi, leyo ndlu yakhiwe egcekeni kubo. Manje-ke, ziyaqhubeka lezi zinkinga zabasebenzi bakamasipala abafuna ukuzihlomulisa bona kuqala kodwa abantu babe behlupheka.


Okwesibili, laphaya, endaweni yaseMlazi, kunabantu abahlala ezindaweni zama-park homes okuthiwa i-Zamani. Labo bantu basuswa ngonyaka wezi-2010 eSipingo KwaMnyandu begudluzelwa ukuthi bangabonwa yilabo abekade besivakashele. Bathathwa babekwa kuma-park homes kwathiwa bazohlala izinyanga eziyi-18. Nanamhlanje abakaze bakhelwe izindlu kanti bathenjiswa ukuthi bazohlala kuma-park homes izinyanga eziyi-18 bese bayasuswa bayofakwa ezindlini.


Okokugcina, iNkatha iyafisa ukusho ukuthi lobu bugebengu bokuthi abantu abanikwa imisebenzi yokwakha izindlu bakhe izindlwanyana eziphuphile bese bathatha inkece eningi bayifake emakhukhwini kodwa bese bengalandelwa, lokho kufanele kuphele ngoba umuntu uma enikezwe imali yokuthi akhe indlu esezigeni elihle akhele umuntu ohluphekile kumele akwenze lokho angathathi imali ayifake emakhikhini bese uma kuphela unyaka izindlu seziqhumile futhi ziyaphephuka. Uhulumeni kumele akulandele nalokho. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)


[Mr M KHAWULA: The IFP wishes to say this to the Department of Human Settlements although we are not against the Budget Vote, but we are saying that the corruption that is committed by other officials in higher positions, I’m referring to the crime of building houses in illegal areas is still continuing and the people who don’t qualify to get government houses is also continuing. Let me make an example, in Ugu District Municipality, in Umuziwabantu Municipality in Harding under the chief of Bashaweni, there is an employee who works in the Umuziwabantu Municipality who has an RDP House at his or her home. As I speak now, that employee is unable to remove the house from his or her parent’s home. Therefore, these problems of municipality employees who want to benefit themselves first are escalating whilst the people are suffering.


Secondly, at UMlazi, there are people who live in park homes called Zamani. Those people were moved from Isipingo, KwaMnyandu in 2010 in order to hide them from the visitors who came for the 2010 Soccer World Cup. They were placed in park homes and they were promised that they were going to stay there for only 18 months. Up to now they have never received the houses although they were promised that they would be relocated to their new homes after 18 months. Lastly, the IFP wishes to say that the corruption which is committed by the contracting of construction companies whobuilding sub-standard houses at a very high cost and the fact that they are not held accountable, must stop because when a person is given some money to build a quality house for the poor, that person must do likewise without pocketing the money. By the end of the year the houses crack and are prone to be blown away. The government must address that as well. Thank you.]]


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I wish to make the following declaration on Vote 39: Rural Development and Land Reform. If the Minister continues with his populist, unrealistic and ill-informed views on landownership, agriculture will be destructed in South Africa. These flip-flop announcements on landownership create insecurity that affects the economy negatively.


The current proposal of 1 000 hectares for small scale farmers, 2 500 hectares for medium-size farmers and 5 000 hectares for commercial farmers universally is unrealistic, especially when it comes to areas like the Karoo. This will curb the viability of agriculture and the one million jobs we are to create as per NDP.


The department has admitted that the reopening of land claims have given them sleepless nights. As per current rate, up to now, an average of 4 500 land claims would be finalised per year over a 20-year period, looking at the 89 000 claims for the previous claim period.


At this rate, it will take the department 84 years to finalise the expected 397 000 new land claims. Looking at the budget for land restitution, of R2 billion for this financial year, the cost calculation based on current land will cost around R200 billion before inflation to settle the 397 000 expected claims. It will take at least 100 years to finalise the new claims. Withholding rights to full ownership title deeds to the communal communities will prevent them from breaking free from poverty - a power lever to blackmail these to vote for the ANC.


Furthermore, cutting the number of socio-economic infrastructure projects ...


For this reason, the DA does not support the Budget Vote on Rural Development and Land Reform. Thank you.


Mr J P PARKIES: Sihlalo, i-DA ifanele ukufuna ukuba kuvotwe, ... [Chairperson, the DA is right to call for a divison.]


... objecting to this Budget Vote and making a declaration precisely because this Budget Vote touches their nerve, touches consciences, touches the emotions of the conservative, the reactionary elements and the feline brigades. The DA belongs to the feline brigades. [Interjections.] Their serpentine conduct of the DA does not make them immaculate to the colossal mess that we are dealing with, confronting our society.


The land question in our society is a class issue that cannot be left to spontaneity. Land is an asset to fight the poverty of our people. Fourty-four districts are going to be worked on with the possibility and potential to give jobs, to deal with the tormenting poverty of our people.


The establishment of the office of Valuer-General is an important intervention from our government. The agripark presents an opportunity and potential to aggressively transform our agricultural sector, with our people playing a critical part in the agribusiness. They believe is an isolated and a privilege to only white fellows belonging to the DA who remain reactionary in our politics.


However, we need to be conscious that this process will not be manipulated ... [Interjections.]

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I want to ask: Is it Parliamentary for the hon member to make a racial remark, like, “White people in the DA – the white people in the DA?” I believe it is totally racist ... [Interjections.] I believe it is totally racist and it is unacceptable that we speak in such a way in this House. [Interjections.] We are all South Africans and we should respect each other in that way. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, no, no! Hon member! Hon member! Hon member, in order to make a ruling in that matter, I will have to satisfy myself first, especially with regard to the ... [Interjections] No, no, no, no! Let us just respect one another. I mean, the issue of race is a matter that is confronting South Africa. Even if you go to the statistician generally, he refers to a particular population as white. [Interjections.] Now, I need to satisfy myself. [Interjections.] No, no, no, no! Hon Parkies, just hold it!


I need to satisfy myself in so far as the context in which it was raised: Whether it was a racial demean or not, ... [Interjections.] ... and therefore come with a ruling back to the House. Hon Parkies, can you continue. Hon members! Hon members, this is not a debate. This is not a policy debate. The hon member is making a declaration of his party.


Mr J P PARKIES: Chairperson, scientifically, you must know that facts and reality will always prevail and alter friction. That is what the DA members must know. The organisations that I belong to – both the Communist Party and the ANC – are nonracial organisations. This is a fundamental principle; it is not a slogan. [Interjections.] We live that; it is not a slogan.


However, we need to co-operatives as vehicles to impact and temper with structure of the economy in our society. In order for this to succeed, we will have to employ firm authority on the land question and the force of willpower. Thank you.

Question put: That Budget Vote 39: Rural Development and Land Reform be adopted.


Vote 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.


Division demanded.


The Council divided.


AYES - 29: De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C; Gaehler, LB; Khawula, M; Makue, E R; Madileng,W T; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R; Mohai, S J; Motara, T; Mququ, P C; Mthimunye, S G; Nyambi, A J; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Sefako, O; Singh, A S; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 9: Chetty, M; Essack, F; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Smit, C F B; Van Lingen, E C.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Schedule put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Declarations of vote:

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Appropriation Bill before us is considered at a time when we have skyrocketing unemployment, basic service delivery failures, an energy crisis, a water crisis, a health crisis, a quality education crisis, a crime rate that is spiralling beyond comprehension, and a leadership who flaunts accountability. It is a hostile environment, which shows no signs of abatement in the considerable future. It is an environment in which we should be encouraging self-help and self-reliance, not dependency through greater forms of social welfare and relief. As was said at the World Economic Forum this year, the future of Africa “rests greatly on self-employment and creativity.”


Government spending must facilitate and drive economic growth. Many of the socioeconomic issues that challenge South Africa would be significantly diminished if we could only achieve a normal unemployment rate. Poverty and inequality would be significantly reduced. Health and education would also improve, as working people are, by and large, healthier than the unemployed, and are also capable of keeping their children in school for longer.


The future of Africa is self-employment and creativity. The core issue and challenge facing this government is that its expenditure is rising at a rate that is unsustainable, and will only lead to greater deficits and increased borrowings. The public sector wage bill is a key driver of this increase in spending and must be curbed. The IFP has stated this before, and states it again - this government is bloated. We must tighten the reins.


Another potential crisis to navigate is this spending of trillions of rand on nuclear energy. Do we have the necessary funding for this? What if its costs spiral out of control, like we have recently seen on a smaller scale at the Medupi and Kusile power plants? How will we afford a solvency crisis of this magnitude when this is already an unaffordable option for South Africa’s energy requirements?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you!


Mr M KHAWULA: In conclusion, the IFP is concerned with the noncompliance to resolutions in government. The Minister of Finance curbed government spending on a number of issues during the mid-term budget presentations in October 2013. As you all witnessed when the IFP asked the question of the Deputy President about this on 17 June 2015 – last Wednesday – in this House, these cost-cutting measures have not yet been adhered to. Yet, the same were approved by Cabinet in that very same year. I thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.


An HON MEMBER: Well done!


Ms T MOTARA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to commend the hon Minister Nene and the hon Deputy Minister Jonas, for successfully navigating through a difficult economic climate. Striking a balance between contending societal priorities, government interventions to stimulate the economy, servicing debt and raising revenue has become somewhat of an art form.


With its 2014 election manifesto, we saw a 62% majority support from the South African electorate. The ANC recommitted its focus on six key priorities: education, health, safety and security, rural development and land reform, the creating of jobs and boosting the economy, and last, but not least, social cohesion and a safer, integrated continent. On receipt of the proposed Appropriation Bill, the ANC took time to scrutinise, interrogate and investigate as to whether these priorities would be met.


As the ANC, we support the appropriation of the largest percentage of the Budget to education, social development, health, the security cluster and local government services, including water and sanitation. We support government’s direct intervention in areas that will see long-term economic support and enablers to drive the economy of this country forward. We support the fact that transport, energy, agriculture, environment, tourism, science and technology, trade and industry, as well as all departments in the economics cluster are geared towards stimulating the economy. We support the difficult balance that has been struck in order to fund departments that remain our priorities, and funding departments that will result in the increase of the fiscus as a result of the economic spinoffs we will derive from these.


Raising concerns around challenges that particular departments face should not be the basis on which some object to a budget. Let’s identify the challenges, come up with solutions to address them, monitor progress and spending, and continue to address the challenges of our country as we create a nonsexist, nonracial, united, democratic and prosperous South Africa, united in our diversity.


As the ANC, at no stage will we reject the payment of salaries to teachers, nurses, doctors and our police personnel. As the ANC, at no stage will we reject or say no to the provision of a social grant to those most deserving – children, the elderly, and people living with disabilities. Instead, as the ANC, we support the Appropriation Bill in its entirety, not because we are members of the same party, but because not supporting it would mean that we do not support the delivery of services and the upliftment of our people out of the shackles of poverty, unemployment and inequality. [Applause.]


THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. [Interjections.]


Mr A J NYAMBI: Eish!




Mr A J NYAMBI: You give everybody a chance!




Mr A J NYAMBI: Wow. Alright. Wow!


THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no. [Interjections.] No, hon members. In terms of the Rule, the party has got the right to make their declaration, if they so wish. We can’t stop them from making a declaration. [Interjections.]


Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Deputy Chair, I rise on a point of order: When you were calling parties - not that I am assuming – as I was seated here, I heard them saying they were not going to be making declarations of vote. [Interjections.] To be precise, it was the hon Van Lingen. [Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: He is exercising an opinion! [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Nyambi ... [Interjections.]


Mr F ESSACK: He is undermining us!


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, in accordance with Rule 63, even before I present the Bill or the Schedule or whatever, for voting, the Rule allows political parties to make declarations of vote, if they so wish. [Interjections.] You may proceed.


Mr F ESSACK: Thank you for the opportunity, hon Deputy Chairperson. At the end of the day, I believe that the hon Nyambi does his best to undermine other individuals. Nevertheless, in the spirit of nation-building, it is very difficult when one sits here sometimes and listens to the comments that fly across the Chamber and the impressions that we give the citizens of our country. In the spirit of nation-building, it is not that the DA stands here and attempts to knock down everything that is said, and to vote against every other budget. No! The spirit of ... [Interjections.] ... if you allow me to get through to you, perhaps ...


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order, hon members! [Interjections.]


Mr F ESSACK: ... perhaps you would apply your mind. That is all I am trying to say. The DA basically cannot support certain issues if it is not in the spirit of service delivery and where the monies are not going where they belong. [Interjections.] If one considers the corruption and the millions that are being spent but not going where they should be, then it is very difficult for us to support you. [Interjections.] This is why, at the end of the day ...


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order! Order! Order, hon members!


Mr F ESSACK: ... the DA is there to keep the checks and balances. [Interjections.] I can quite understand that your temperatures are going up, because, at the end of the day, you always want to be right ...


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order, hon members!


Mr F ESSACK: ... but you will not let the opposition parties have a say!


Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Chair, on a point of order: As the Deputy Chairperson, we expect you to protect our member, when he is ...


The  DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What have I been doing? [Interjections.]


Mr W F FABER: No, Deputy Chairperson ... [Interjections.] ... Deputy Chairperson, we ...


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, hon member, you are out of order, because, you see ...


Mr W F FABER: No, Deputy Chairperson. You must be consistent with our people.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): There is an earlier ruling by the Chair of the Council to a member of the DA who submitted a substantive motion. There is a general trend of casting aspersions on the presiding officers and their neutrality in the House. That is exactly what the hon member is trying to do now. I have been calling members to order and he interjected while I was doing so, to allow the member ... Is that not protecting a member who is at the podium?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: He couldn’t hear you, sir.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Now, if he couldn’t hear me, whose problem is it? It cannot be ...



Ms E C VAN LINGEN: He was shouting ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): That’s what I’m saying. [Interjections.] If everybody ... Order! Order, hon members! If everybody behaves in a manner that is not honourable, how will you hear me? It is because you are shouting at each other! Hon members, can you allow the hon member to conclude the declaration of vote for his political party? Can you conclude, hon member?


Mr F ESSACK: Deputy Chairperson, I had only been speaking for one minute and 30 seconds. On behalf of the DA, let it be said and known that the poor of this country are, at the end of the day, not receiving the services that they have been promised after so-called 20 years of democracy. [Applause.] One must also understand that, with the energy crisis being what it is, it is very difficult that the economy must bear the brunt of poor ANC planning. So, rest assured, the taxpayers are not getting value for their money; the poor are not getting value; and at the end of the day, the country just retrogresses under a poor, ill-advised government. I thank you. [Applause.]


Declarations(s) of Vote... Continue

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, as the UDM we support the Vote. If we do not support the Vote our people, including those who voted for us, will be suffering. So it is very important to support the Vote because it affects the poorest of the poor and we are a party that represent poor people. So we support the Vote.


However, there are a few concerns from the UDM. First of them is the land claims issue. There are some municipalities, and one of them in point is the King Sabata Dalindyebo Local Municipality, KSD, where half of that municipality’s land is under claim. In other words; you cannot develop these municipalities. My colleagues here from the ANC can agree with me. If that is not resolved, there will be a disaster in that area. The town is congested and it cannot be developed because of that.


Our second concern is about the local government. The state of roads in the local government is a mess up. The state of service delivery and the negative audit reports also need to be attended too.


Lastly, is the issue of agriculture. It is very concerning when you go to the rural areas...


... apho ufumanisa khona ukuba akukho nembewu yokutyala. [...where you find out there’s even no seeds to plant.]


The dependency on government is because nothing is done for agriculture in the rural areas. Even the ANC people can agree on this one. As long as we don’t empower these people; we will have problems. We therefore request, as the UDM, that more regarding agriculture be done for people in rural areas. The UDM supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: We shall now proceed to the voting. I take it that the same system is going to apply. Are we still 29 from this side? I’m informed that there are two members who left and I don’t know how. Chief Whip, there are two members who left and I don’t know how they left the House. And it has not been brought to my attention; that is why I may have proceeded with the ordinary 29 that was counted. Could we therefore restart the counting? 


Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, I don’t think it is fair to us. When we wanted to go out we were stopped by the hon Chairperson. Now there are two members who have left the House, and it is unfair. How did they leave the House? Who opened for them? That’s unfair; it’s totally unfair to us.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Gaehler, may we proceed with the voting. Can members count those who are in favour, those who are against and those who abstain... [Interjections.]


Mr M CHETTY: Chairperson, on a point of clarity.




Mr M CHETTY: No, Chairperson, but I am waiting for you to recognise me. On a point of clarity, are you aware when these two hon members left the House, at which point in time and during which Budget Vote? This could have an implication if we are going to assume that we were 29 for all along until the last Budget Vote.


With all due respect, Deputy Chairperson, I think I don’t need you to protect me I can shout. I am saying that to you with due respect. The House have only become aware now that there are two members who have left without your permission, and they were not supposed to have done so. Now that the suggestion has arisen I am kindly asking you to inform us as to which Budget Vote will be changed. Thank you, Chairperson.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: It is not factually correct to say they left without permission. That is not factually correct.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Chief Whip, did they leave after we have adopted the schedule?




The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay, fine. They voted in all the Votes that were before us. Now we are presenting the Bill before us.


Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.


Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.


The Council adjourned at 18:43.







National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


The Speaker and the Chairperson


1.       Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent


  1. Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 24 June 2015:


  1. Appropriation Bill [B 6 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 77).

National Council of Provinces


The Chairperson


1.       Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council


  1. Bills passed by National Assembly and transmitted for concurrence on 24 June 2015:


  1. Eskom Special Appropriation Bill [B 16 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 77).


  1. Eskom Subordinated Loan Special Appropriation Amendment Bill (2008/09-2010/11 Financial Years) [B 17 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 77).


                      The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Appropriations of the National Council of Provinces.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


1.      The Minister of Finance


  1. Annual Report of the Bank Supervision Department of the South African Reserve Bank for 2014.