Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 29 Aug 2018


No summary available.


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The House met at 15:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the first item on the Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in the social services cluster. Members may press the top button on their desks if they wish to ask supplementary question. I wish to remind hon members that names of members requesting supplementary question will be cleared as soon as the member of the executive starts answering the fourth supplementary question. The first question has been asked by hon M F Nkadimeng to the Minister of Human Settlements.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I address you in terms of Rule 138 of the National Assembly Rules?


THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I would like to find out from you whether any Ministers have indicated that they won’t be present in the House today? It was indicated earlier that the Minister of Basic Education once again is not available in the House to answer questions.

This is becoming a serial occurrence with this particular Minister and it is undermining the ability of members of this House to exercise their oversight of the executive, which you set out very clearly in your affidavit in a recent court case on the importance of oral questions as an arena of executive accountability.

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I really think it’s high time that this Parliament starts to take proactive and concrete steps against serial constitutional delinquency that miss their opportunities to be held accountable in this House. I wonder if you could share with us the reasons why the Minister is not in the House today.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, will come back. Yes, hon member, Mr Singh.

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, this matter was discussed in the Chief Whips Forum this morning and if I want to be kind I will say it’s regrettable that three Ministers are not going to be here but it’s really not acceptable that the national Minister of Basic Education, Social Development and Arts and Culture are not going to be here to answer questions.

These questions have been placed on the Order Paper. They should know that they should be here and it’s not acceptable that their deputy or somebody else should be answering on their behalf.


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We agreed in the Chief Whip’s Forum but I don’t know if it has been brought to your attention, that before we start with the question session, you make it clear from the table that the Chief Whip’s Forum takes strong exception to these Ministers who are not here, in particular the Minister of Basic Education and Social Development.

I think the Minister of Arts and Culture had responded because he had another commitment. So, we just hope the announcement comes from the table because Parliament needs to be taken very seriously by members of the executive, particularly on question day.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mkhaliphi.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker, I have been recognised, chief, sit down. Thank you. I just want to say that on the Chief Whip’s Forum we spoke about this thing very strongly and then we were told that the Deputy Minister of Basic Education will be here and then we said all of us as Chief whips that we don’t want the deputy minister of basic education to respond because this Minister of Basic Education; firstly, this


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department is in crisis and she has not been here for a long time, so, we agreed that those questions will be deferred for the next week to be attended to.

Secondly, we also condemn the fact that the Minister of Social Development, now our grannies, our pensioners want to know why there are long queues in the post offices. Even if you engage with the department, there is no straight answer.

Thirdly, both of them, the Minister and the Deputy Minister are not here to answer to or grannies who are expecting answers from this Parliament. So, Deputy Speaker we are expecting you to announce that because our people are waiting at home. They want to know abut those long queues in post offices. Thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, as you know this matter has been going on without a solution. I mentioned that at the Chief Whip’s Forum that there is a plethora of issues that are affecting basic education and is unacceptable that the Minister has not been there for quite a long time to respond


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to questions, only the Deputy Minister has always been present.

Now, the questions will be carried over. We find that learners stab one another in schools and just a myriad of issues that have got to be attended to and we want to put it on record again as the NFP that we are not happy this matter. It must be attended to as soon as possible.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, we would also like to align ourselves with what our colleagues have expressed here, because indeed this matter was discussed in the Chief Whip’s Forum. But I think I want to appeal once more, I don’t know whether is for the tenth or eleventh time to members of the executive to understand that the work we do here as the opposition, especially when we ask these questions. We ask them on behalf of the people who have sent us to come and hold them to account on the issues and how they spent taxpayer’s monies and implement government programmes.

So, it’s important that going forward, Parliament becomes a lot stricter especially to the usual suspects like the


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Minister of Basic Education who seem not to be taking the work we do here as Parliament very seriously. Thank you.

Mr P D N MALOYI: Deputy Speaker, I am not sure why are we using this platform to reopen the discussions that took place at the Chief Whip’s Forum. Now, hon members are right that the matter was discussed in the Chief Whip’s Forum and a decision was taken in that forum that a letter must be written to the Speaker and the leader of government business to attend to this issue. Now, as to why are we bringing that discussion to the House, I don’t know, if we all agreed in the Chief Whip’s Forum as to what processes are we supposed to take.

Lastly, all these members know that if a Minister or a Deputy Minister is not in the House to answer a question, that question will stand over in order for us to attend to it next time.

So, I am just saying that, let’s not open discussions that took place and decisions that were taken in other forums in the House. I know that there is television; somebody wants to


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appear on television and appear very smart. That is not necessary.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Order, order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can I request you? So, let me address you and then I will give an opportunity if you still need ...

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, this man is abusing us here. He doesn’t even sit in the Chief Whip’s Forum.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member!

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: He can’t come and abuse this platform here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, attention were drawn to us about that discussion. We are equally concerned about the requirements for Ministers to be present in the House and that indeed we will be consulting, so that we take forward the communication of the concern to the leader of government business, so that we consult both for purposes of ongoing


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presence in the House, as well as the arrangement for when the questions will be dealt with.

It is our responsibility both constitutionally and otherwise to ensure that it happens and we share the concern all members have and the agreements that you have reached. We will act on those agreements. We feel that the leader of government business will be addressed on this matter urgently, so that it can be attended with time and date agreed to for the sorting out of this matter. Thank you very much, hon members. I hope we can proceed with that understanding.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, a number of aspersions has been cast on members of this House. I would like to address you in terms of Rule 260 of the Rules.



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THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: This Rule makes it very clear that the Chief Whip’s Forum is not a decision making body of this Parliament. It is a consultative body and therefore the deliberative powers and the powers of the House to express itself, exist in formalised committees and on this House.

So, for the hon member to make aspersions about people wanting television time is frankly not acceptable. This is the correct arena and I wish that the Ministers would want to get little bit more television time and patch up for work.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, this matter has been addressed. We will deal with it as I indicated earlier on. Thank you very much.

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Carter.

Ms D CARTER: I am sorry, I am not trying to be disrespectful but I would like to just place it on record. My hand has been


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up even before hon Kwankwa spoke. I just want to place on record ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: My apologies. I didn’t see you.

Ms D CARTER: Okay. Your apology is accepted. I just want to also just concur with everyone else that spoke that it is absolutely unacceptable and that please as you have indicated, necessary action needs to be taken urgently. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.

Question 54:

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Speaker, hon Nkadimeng, the establishment of Human Settlement Development Bank comprise of two phases. Phase one comprise of consolidation of the current Development Financial Institution, which is Rural Housing Loan Fund, National Housing Finance Corporation and National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency into one entity.


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Phase two consists of legislative establishment of Human Settlement Development Bank in terms of the current policy and legislation. Phase one has been completed, that is consolidation of the current Development Financial Institution. The only issue outstanding is the approval in terms of section 66 of the Public Financial Management Act, PFMA, which is required from my colleague, the Minister of Finance, for the transfer of assets and liabilities into a single entity.

The department has commenced with finalisation of business case and drafting the Human Settlement Development Bank Bill including compliance with the required legislation process. I will in due course in consultation with Cabinet advice on the timeframe for the approval of the business case as well as submission of the Human Settlement Development Bank, HSDB, Bill to Cabinet for approval and introduction to Parliament. Thank you Deputy Speaker.

Ms N F NKADIMENG: Deputy Speaker, thank you hon Minister for your prompt and elaborate response. However Minister, how will the Human Settlement Development Bank improve the lives of the


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poor people living in rural areas, women, youth, child headed households and people living with disabilities?

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The Human Settlement Development Bank objectives include the responsibility to ensure that the current Rural Housing Finance programmes that are implemented by the department are up scaled. The department currently through Rural Housing Loan Fund has successfully implemented incremental housing finance programmes in the rural areas and since its inception, approximately 581 000 loans have been extended to rural household to build expanded houses.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, South Africa is faced with corruption, fraud and maladministration under the leadership of the ANC as we have seen in the SA Airways, SAA, and Eskom being corrupted by Brian Molefe of the ANC. Do you have courage to convince this House and taxpayers that the establishment of the Human Settlement Development Bank will not be corrupted and prevented from maladministration? I thank you.


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The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Well, definitely, that’s why we are establishing a bank not to be corrupted by whoever is corrupt but a bank that would provide loans to those people who need houses because at the moment, the commercial banks are not assisting us in that regard.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the Human Settlement Development Bank has now incorporated three previous successful financial entities. My question is: How quickly will these new entities be able to offer the same level of access to financing to poor people? What marketing strategies are in place to ensure that the poor and marginalised citizens are made aware of this financial scheme?

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: As I have said earlier, once those few obstacles are sorted out, this bank will be operational. Definitely, we are talking about banks that are operating already and have assets and that consolidation is putting all those assets together but at the moment, we are also talking to some commercial banks, that I won’t mention here, that are able to assist us in strengthening the Human Settlement Development Bank. As far as I’m concern as soon as


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they are established to function, they will be doing what they are doing already because it is them whom assist those who belong to social houses, who also want loans for those houses. In most cases, it is not the commercial bank but one of these banks whenever there is somebody who wants a loan. Thank you Deputy Speaker.

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, it is estimated that some 18 000 affordable housing units could be developed in spatially well located Ysterplaat near Cape Town Central Business District, CBD, should the air force agree to move its operation from Ysterplaat. Now, do you support the possible relocation of the air force from this site for affordable housing purposes and what other government’s state-owned entities, land around Cape Town has government identified for low cost and affordable housing purposes?

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Speaker, even though the question is not in line with the Human Settlement Development Bank, yes, I do support if there is no use for that piece of land and it is offered for low income housing because it is about time that we change the apartheid special


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plan and put our people near amenities. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Question 47:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Speaker, the issue of foreign South Africans who are trained abroad as medical students, the national Department of Health consulted widely with affected stakeholders which included representatives of students who have studied abroad. At the meeting of the National Health Council on June 2018, a policy was adopted by the National Health Council which provides guidelines on the requirements to be followed for these professionals and others who qualified abroad.

In terms of this policy future students who wish to study medicine must register with the Health Professions Council and ensure that the university at which they wish to study is recognised by the council. The council will maintain a list of universities that they recognise and if the university does not appear on the list, the prospective student must first apply and get confirmation that such a university is indeed recognised. For students who are currently studying abroad,


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provision has been made for them to register until July 2019. This registration is necessary to allow for planning to accommodate these students on our clinical platform.

Once the students have graduated, they will be required to undertake a clinical bridging programme, prior to this the degree will be assessed by the Health Professions Council, and then they will be put into a bridging programme as agreed with the SA Committee of Medical Deans. Once they go through the assessment and bridging course, then they will be eligible to enter the system through internship and also community service. That is in brief the process which we have agreed and the Health Professions Council has also indicated that they are ready to implement such a system. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I might as well walk across and sit with the Deputy Minister and ask him my question.
However, for the record hon Deputy Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, whilst we recognise that there is this policy that has been released, there is lack of clarity with this policy. There has been consultation which you spoke about, but I don’t


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think we, as Members of Parliament, have been consulted. Everybody else has been consulted, but not us as Members of Parliament. I don’t want to ask specific question related to the guidelines, but just to give you one example. These guidelines which were published on 25 June 2018, as you mentioned, speaks about clarifying the process and a list of accredited institutions.

This morning I sent an email to the Health Professions Council of South Africa, HPCSA, asking them where I can locate those accredited institutions on the website. The answer came as follows: Good day, the list is not on our website and cannot be accessible at the stage. So, that is the challenge we are having, hon Deputy Minister. I hope that without me having to ask any questions, please arrange a meeting with the HPCSA and ask who are involved representing people on the ground so that we can seek clarity to the number of issues that we have.

For example, you and I positively sorted out the question of board examinations and many students wrote the examinations. There are few challenges in that regard which can still be sorted out. Therefore, let us have a meeting with them. Let us


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clarify the situations. I don’t want to come to Parliament and ask questions in this forum, but I think if you facilitate it we can get the matters sorted out. Therefore, will you give us that assurance, hon Deputy Minister? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, through you to hon Singh, thank you. As I have indicated that this policy was adopted two months ago. Therefore, what needs to follow which is the reason why we also in recognition of that said, the students who are already studying have time to can register with the Health Professions Council because we knew that all the systems will not be immediately ready because the Health Professions Council must then identify those universities ... I’m sure they will start with the common countries where already we have students studying medicine abroad. Look at those countries and look at the kind of curriculum of those medical schools and universities, and then go further and broaden up.

The database I will assume that the Health Professions Council will incrementally build a database of universities which they recognise their curriculums. However, we can arrange through


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the committee to invite the Health Professions Council so that there can be a much deeper discussion on the matter. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Dr P MAESELA: Hon Deputy Speaker, we have mentioned it many times that we are not going to do the evaluation of the government National Health Insurance, NHI, programme because nobody actually cost a programme. We cost it and budget for it as we implement it and as we roll it. You can’t have an estimate for the whole project which is going to be in stages for many years. So, the universal health care coverage is going to be rolled in piece by piece or yearly on yearly, on year by year. Nobody has ever tried to cost the cost of democracy, but we knew that we had to have it and nobody has ever costed the cost of the present private health care.
Having said that ... [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maesela, I’m afraid you have exhausted your time with your statement. We have to proceed to the next. Your time has expired, sir. I’m sorry. Hon Deputy Minister, you may comment if you so wish otherwise we proceed to the next.


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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Speaker, unfortunately the hon member is not following up on the hon Singh’s question.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: So, I would prefer that we skip.

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, despite this alignment between foreign acquired medical degrees and the South African own medical qualifications norms and standards and the National Qualification Framework Act, it makes no sense why government has embarked on an expensive programme like this without having applied its mind on realignment between foreign acquired medical qualifications and our own policies that exist in the country. It makes government and the department look no better than a spider which acts without thinking.

Now, despite the fact that there is this alignment, the HPCSA has collapsed and members of the board have reduced it to a cash cow where they pay themselves and they have run the


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council down the ground. Now, the question is, is the Minister aware of this alignment and furthermore is he aware that the board has been used as a cash cow? Thank you so much. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired, and please do indicate that I have to call out names of members who are doing follow-ups. If you are not the person, do indicate so publicly so that you just proceed and speak as if you are Ntlangwini, you are not. Therefore, next time don’t do that mistake. Hon Deputy Minister, I don’t know whether there was any question to respond to if you heard it at all.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, the hon member, in fact, is just cast aspersions on the Health Professions Council. He didn’t actually ask a question about the training of students, he’s casting aspersions on the Health Professions Council. However, I can assure the House that whilst the Health Professions Council does have some challenges in terms of full capacity and implementing all its programmes, it is functional; and we do interact with it on a regular basis.


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Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The Deputy Minister is ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, you rise on a point of order. What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr N S MATIASE: The point of order is that the Deputy Minister, for some reasons which I don’t know, is misleading the House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you see, you are engaging in dialogue and this is not allowed. You can’t do that.

Mr N S MATIASE: He is misleading because he said that I’m casting aspersion on the council ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, take your seat. Take your seat or I switch off you microphone. Hon Deputy Minister, finish what you were saying ... [Interjections.] ... No, hon member, just be orderly, what is wrong with you? Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.


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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me pass that I can assure the House that the Health Professions Council is functional as I said. It might have shortcomings maybe turnaround time on some of the tasks, but it’s functional and on this particular matter we will be interacting with the Health Professions Council even earlier today and I spoke to the president of the council and assured me that they are on board. They are going to do an evaluation of the degree which is acquired outside South Africa. Once they are happy with it we have discussed with the deans of medical schools and they will provide the bridging course, and then the process will flow. So, I can assure the House that this is going to work.

Ms L V JAMES: Deputy Speaker, given that all hospitals are short of doctors, what impact would it make on these doctors shortages if all these South Africans with foreign degrees who have applied to practice were allowed to do so? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, this system is really to address that, but at the same time protect the South


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African public because you need to have a quality assurance system which says that if I come here and say that I have a certificate and I qualified in country A, B, C, D, and at this university, how do we make sure because here you are not talking about somebody who is going to repair cars or machines, but he’s going to deal with human life. You know the kind of challenges we have sometimes, malpractice and so on.
Therefore, it is to make sure that there is a quality assurance system allowing the people to come in. Once they have been assured, be given a chance, be tested and be put through a system, and once they qualify through all that system, then they get fully registered. Therefore, it will speedup the process of quality assurance and registration. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon members, Question

64 which was asked by hon Mabika to the Minister of Basic Education, I’m informed that there has been a request for all the questions to be dealt with in the manner in which it was suggested - consultation took place. As a result, we will now move to Question 60. This one too is asked to the Minister of Social Development who is not here. The Minister of Sport and


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Recreation to respond to hon Strike Ralegoma - hon Minister of Sport and Recreation asked by hon Ralegoma.

Question 56:

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Speaker, our response is to the fact that the central aspects to the findings and recommendations of the fifth Eminent Persons Group, EPG, report includes first, to establish a platform to orchestrate, coordinate and align the programmes and activities of all school sports roleplayers and to maximise participation opportunity with respect to underage teams and competition.

Secondly, to resolve issues between Basic Education and Sport and Recreation with respect to teacher involvement in the organisation of school sports and retraining of teachers.
Thirdly, to ensure appropriate protection mechanisms and processes for school sports participants against mental and physical abuse where they have been identified and to revise the national school priority sports structure.


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Each component of the school sports system has to set up programmes aligned to the EPG findings, and to consider the introduction of a penalty system for ongoing compliant with charter targets and to improve women representation in all sport structures on and off the fields of play.

Lastly, that good progress has been made particularly since the review of our memorandum of understanding, MOU, between the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Sport and Recreation over some of these matters, and we are monitoring the system. I thank you.

MR S M RALEGOMA: Hon minister, I’m quite happy that you are focusing on the key areas, but I’m more interested on those federations that are not moving, particularly around meeting their own targets that come from them. What measures are you going to take to ensure that they comply because at this stage, as you know, hon Minister, we are persuading them and they give us their own targets?

We don’t impose targets on them. So, it is suspected that they should really assist us. There are those that are doing well,


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like for instance rugby, although we are still far in terms of the target. So, what penalty measures are we going to take?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Once more, thank you very much. Indeed, the progress that has been achieved from the 2016-17 EPG report was the fact that on top of the targets that they set themselves, we were assessing them around those targets. We do have positive response around eight of the codes that have met their targets whilst 11 have not.

In terms of following that up, every year the EPG has to get back to each and every code and get to know why it has not met its own set targets, because they’ve set themselves the targets and we monitor as they set the targets. They are not just ticking the box, but it is meant to lead to the transformation that we’re looking at.

What has been introduced in the current year are the punitive measures for each of the codes that does not meet its target, and at the same time even those that have met their targets in in-depth assessment, it has also been identified that in terms


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of the year after year, they have not been meeting the targets, but meeting only yearly targets that have been set.

So, we are making follow up and making sure that they meet the targets and hopefully, in the next report, we are going to be betting into those previously unmet targets, but also the targets for each of the codes moving forward. Fortunately, this year, even the eleven codes constitutes some of those that have even signed because earlier on it was only the top five that have signed and set themselves targets. Thank you very much.

Mr T W MHLONGO: Chair, thank you very much. Minister, do you support EPG? I can put it to you that it is not working. One of the things you have spoken about, the MOU is not implemented in school sports, and I believe, as I’ve put to you that it’s not working.

We therefore need total change, and one of the things that I can highlight is that we must come up with road shows. Do you support that we must have road shows to speak to Mayors expertise in sports to make sports productive and to sustain


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all inroads for us to make sure that transformation takes place in South Africa?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chair, there is no way I would not support the EPG because this is the product of the department to ensure that we monitor transformation in the sporting sector. So, this is the product of the national Department of Sport and Recreation to implement transformation.

It is working, and there is tremendous positive progress. The MOU cannot be implemented with Basic Education because as you know, we have been working to review the MOU and we signed the reviewed MOU on 31 May 2018 because the previous one had challenges.

We have moved a very big ground in terms of implementing specific aspects of the MOU this year. We can share our plan with you, which is what then is going to assist MOU in terms of focusing on school sports. But ordinarily, they have been dealing with the codes broadly and outside school sports.


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In sharing with you about the implementation of transformation, we have noticed that all the roleplayers that have been participating and which we are happy to have, and also the buy-ins that we have are from the various sporting codes. So, when you say that there must be road shows for players, our task is beyond just taking care of the players.

In terms of the sports plan, it is also more about ensuring that about 50% of South Africans become active in both sport and recreation. Therefore, our task is beyond what you are suggesting and that is what we are doing. Thank you.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Minister, I have just my question. What I want to find out is, when we can expect an implementation plan and what is the timeline for the implementation of this transformation charter, specifically with regards to Department of Sport and Recreation and Basic Education. When are we going to see the final planning of the charter? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you, hon members, maybe hon Sithole will have to differentiate between the


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charter and MOU between ourselves and Basic Education. The charter is under implementation. Its part of it is where we started by setting codes when we got into the democratic government. But the step forward was the establishment of the EPG itself and its processes. That is the processes of charter implementation.

On the side of MOU with Basic Education, five years have lapsed in terms of the previous MOU which had its challenges that made us not move any bigger ground. But the current one that has got now an implementation plan since the signing in May has got timeline. It indicates who of the roleplayers has to do what.

The plan also incorporates the forum that also seeks to involve all other critical roleplayers that we seek to involve for us to be able to implement the school sports programme effectively. Thank you.

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, you know what, before I start, it’s women’s month. Can you please ask your members to stop making cat’s noises because I might just get catty?


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Last week in the National Assembly we learnt about the unacceptable litany of bad governance in respect of entities under the control of your department, of wasteful expenditure, poor labour relations, low staff morale, dysfunctional boards and councils who battled to exercise oversight over their administration.

Also, there is of little or no coherence between the objectives of these entities and those of the department as a whole. Do you agree that this is unacceptable situation and what is being done about it? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, that is out of order, hon members. Hon members, you know that it is not in the Rules for you to do that. That is actually childish!

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, I just want to say to you, nature cannot control a cat that is on heat!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are being out of order yourself. Hon members, please just respect yourselves. This is


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lousy, quite frankly. Absolutely lousy! You can’t also stoop to those levels. Go ahead, Minister!

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Once more thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Indeed, if you look into the issues of bad governance in the entities, it constitutes one of the areas that continue to be unacceptable. Unfortunately, standing here I won’t be able to get into details of each of the entities. But as part of work that we do, that’s what we monitor.

It forms part of what we also prioritise to ensure that a sporting code will not just focus on meeting in terms of individual targets, but it also needs to look into issues of governance because proper governance needs alignment and understanding of what is sought to be delivered in Sport and Recreation SA.

So, we continuously monitor that because it’s also part of our EPG and transformation programme therefore that we check within entities. Wherever entities then demonstrate such, we are able to also make follow ups and take them to task. So,


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annually we give reports as to what is happening in each of the entities. Thank you.

Question 78:


Speaker, let me say to Prof Bozzoli that I am not sure that at this time I am asking the administrator for improvements.
There are three priority areas in response to your question that I have asked the administrator to focus on. The first is: To pay a very, very concentrated attention to finalising the close out of the 2017 and 2018 funding cycles. A number of processes are involved with that particular area, for example ensuring that students receive confirmation that they would be funded if this has not been done already, that their details in particular registration confirmation is done, that they sign the bursary agreement forms and that their allowances are paid out. So, that is the first priority.

The second is: That steps must be taken in line with preparations that are already underway to launch the 2019 application cycle in early September and I will be making an announcement later this week in that regard.


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The third is: To support us in developing an effective plan in consultation with colleges and universities to manage the funding of students in 2019, in order that students that apply from when we open applications this year, and those who are already beneficiaries know their funding status and response from National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, before registration begins in 2019.

So, those are the three priorities that I have asked him to focus on. As to improvements, I think we will come that later. This is tough enough, but that is where we want to start.
Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

Prof B BOZZOLI: Thank you very much, Minister, that is very helpful. Look, the NSFAS has announced that its deadline for students to finalise their funding is actually the end of this week, Friday. How many students remain unfunded at the moment and how many do you think might remain unfunded after Friday, because they may not have signed their agreements or for other bureaucratic reasons and what do you envisage will happen to those students if they do not meet the Friday deadline? Thank you.


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around the clock to ensure that we reach as many of the students that are currently not funded. You do recognise that part of the difficulty here we have, is as we process the applications and particularly since we are dealing with 2017 and 2018, we are finding that there is going to be a number of students who receive quite a significant sum of money. So, we are looking at how we would address that as well because they have not been funded for quite a significant period.

In terms of the statistics, I have received from the administrator we are looking at around 63 000 students with the majority coming from the Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, college sector. So, there is less of a problem in the universities, but certainly with respect to TVET college students, we have a significant problem.

What is pleasing is in the first seven days of the work of the administrator, we have received massive co-operation from institutions and I am really appreciative of that as well as student organisations playing a role in ensuring that students


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do sign the statement of particulars because that then helps us to finalise the application process and ensure that we have disbursements. So, within the next four days we are going to see significant disbursement of funding because we are getting the Schedule of Particulars, SOPs, back in quite a large stream. I am pleased about that, but there are a number that are not yet processed, particularly with respect to registration confirmation, the other problems with respect to course code correction as well as tuition fee matching with course code. So, all of that is being ironed out and what I am happy about is that for the first time on getting a report this week, I actually can have some comfort that the report I am getting has accuracy associated with it. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, just recently three weeks ago there was a meeting with the department and the new incumbent to the position of chair of NSFAS mentioned among other things that what has caused some problems with regard to NSFAS were issues of centralisation of the systems, lack of resources human capital material and technical, students not signing the agreements or signing late


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after receiving the offers or lack of information that is cascaded to schools so as students are aware of what is happening with regard to NSFAS before they enrol at universities and TVET colleges.

Now, hon Minister, I would like to find out how you are going utilise the student formations to assist in this process and then secondly there is the issue of students who reside in flats that are threatened by the landlords from time to time when they have not received their payments?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired. Hon Minister.


firstly, I have said before that I think a large part of the problem related to the ability of NSFAS to execute a significant administrative exercise, but also we had the problem of the introduction of the so-called student-centred model which was piloted in a few institutions in 2016 and then introduced to the whole sector in 2017, without an adequate evaluation. So, clearly that model was a problem and we need


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to move away from it. I think institutions must play a role of support and should know who is applying, who needs assistance and so on, but they were out of the loop because the process jumped institutions, so that has to alter significantly.

Secondly, the student organisations have actually have been playing a very important role, as have Student Representative Councils, SRCs, in ensuring we communicate. However, I believe in developing a new system, we have to make better use of technology; most students have access to mobile phones, we should have an application, APP, which is an NSFAS APP. They should be able to check information fairly speedily and we should be using local educational establishments such as libraries, Thusong centres. So, I think online support and processes would be a very important addition to what we need to do. However, that of course is looking into the future. For now, let us solve the problems of 2017-18 and let us successfully introduce 2019.

As to the nature of a system we would develop, is from the experience of the administrator and what he alerts us to along with an expert support team as new modifications for ensuring


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we have an appropriate and best system in place. So, that is being worked on and when we are ready, we will make the appropriate announcements. I have said that communication has to be improved. We do not have proper pamphlets of leaflets that are explanatory and very easy to access that are available for young people either at school level or even when you have exited the school system. All that must be improved. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Hlonyana.

Ms N K F HLONYANA: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, this is not us accusing you; you admitted yourself earlier this year that NSFAS system has collapsed, when you said application for next year will not be opened until NSFAS sort out payment backlogs from 2017 and 2018. These backlogs will never be sorted, because to date some students are yet to sign


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their Schedule of Particulars and many have not received food allowances since February. Our students are not eating and it is impossible to learn properly on an empty stomach. Student Representative Councils, SRCs, are now forced to raise funds, so that they can provide students with one meal a day, like at the University of Limpopo, but this is not sustainable and students must get their allocations. Can you commit here before this House, when the backlog will be sorted and students get their allowances? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


firstly, I challenge you to identify a media statement in which I used the word “collapsed”, and I would welcome to see that because it would mean somebody forged my name.

Secondly, with respect to the problems, I have just indicated that these are being solved and that disbursements will begin as from tomorrow. So, students who have not been receiving funding who signed the Schedule of Particulars and who have been confirmed as registered by institutions will begin to receive their money. Not just the funds of 2018, but those who


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have a backlog will receive those funds from the year of 2017 as well.

As for SRCs raising money, I think that spirit of voluntarism has been an absolute point of admiration for me and it should never have happened, but I admire the young people of our country who have stood up in support of fellow students to assist them. I believe this is the nature of individual that is the legacy that we have asked all of us to be, in terms of Tata Nelson Mandela and Mrs Sisulu. So, thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr M J WOLMARANS: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, noting that work has started on the development a new student funding policy at the universities and at TVET colleges which will include the academic service and ethical requirements of students linked to receiving funding: How will this policy contribute to improving the administration of NSFAS funding to students and will the policy have any impact on the review of the student-centred model? Thank you.


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clearly all that we are trying to do is to ensure that we indeed improve the system. I think having the association of access to the full bursary with academic performances is an important criterion which had existed in the past model of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme and matters of ethics and integrity are absolutely imperative. We would like to ensure that funds are spent in a manner that is an accord with the purpose for which young people are in college or university which is to study and complete their courses.

The hon Kwankwa yesterday pointed out concerns with respect to utilisation of the sBux vouchers, where students try to ask shopkeepers for cash to be given in exchange for food vouchers and then some go and purchase alcohol. It is not all students who do that, but any use of the funds in that way, is not how we intended it to be used. It is not part of the policy and therefore I think we would have to look at what form of sanction they might be in cases where there would be abuse of funds that the public are making available for the support of the young people of our country. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.


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Question 65:


much again, Deputy Speaker. You didn’t even give me time to catch my breath. [Laughter.]

Deputy Speaker, hon members will be aware that I have appointed Dr Randall Carolissen as the administrative of the National Student Financial Aids Scheme in terms of the Act that gave life to the scheme. His responsibilities are those that I have referred to in response to the question from Prof Bozzoli, but the closet that I have made reference to earlier as well as development of revival plan for the 2019 funding cycle.

We will be putting in place a support team to assist Dr Carolissen, and we have identified the following areas as critical to attend to. So the team will consist of skills in student financial aid management, human resources management, information technology because of the integration challenges that have had; and of course business systems analytics and other skills that an administrator may convey to me as he become familiar with the work that he should do.


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We are currently in discussion with him as well as officials in the department as to what skills we need and the most appropriate person who can assist. I thank hon members who have send names in to me because I think the list has been very useful on to develop.

We will work through that team with staff at NSFAS and ensure that within the period of 12 months of the administration, the staffs are given the capacity and training to be able to undertake the work appropriately so that we have long-term stability, and that the entity is able to execute its mandate.

I have asked the administrator to advise me as to whether there are any areas that he in course of his work might identify as areas where there was malfeasance or some form of fraudulent utilisation of the funding so that then, I can decide whether or not I should appoint a forensic team to carry out further investigation; and he is doing his work. He is looking at whether there are such instances which may merit such a decision by me. Thank you.


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Mrs J D KILIAN: Thank you, hon Chairperson; and thank you very much Minister for your very extensive reply. In fact, the question that I wanted to pose was surrounding improved business processes and the integrated system between universities and NSFAS as it is.

However, could you also just please indicate in this process, will they consider possibly reintroducing offices at institutions. We are aware that students had great difficulty to follow up on the allegations in terms of NSFAS bursaries, and the local footprint of NSFAS was definitely missed at universities and technical college campuses. Thank you.


let me be honest and confess that I’m not in support of a large institution that then takes up a lot of the money that should go to students. I believe information communication technology is an important resource in ensuring that you can reach as many young people and institutions as possible.

So, my own preference – but again, this will depend on the experience accrued by the administrator; but my preference is


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that we will work with financial aid offices at institutions rather than creating national financial aid offices, which then become a huge operational cost for the scheme.

So I’m really more persuaded that it is at the system’s lever, it is more analytics in systems development that we should focus upon; and that it is the hon members who would assist us to inform young people and ensure that they know they can apply and what is needed in order to apply successfully. Thank you very much.

Prof B BOZZOLI: Thanks Chair. Eh, Minister you didn’t answer part of my question, which is what would happen to some of the
63 000 students still unfunded if they didn’t get funded by the end of this week? But my main question is, you have mention the student centred model as being the main cause of all these problems in NSFAS, but you must agree surely that the failure of NSFAS to disburse its funding must be almost entirely a results of a surprise free fee funding announcement by President Zuma eight months ago rendering the department unprepared to implement this announcement and all of the new criteria that it involved. Thank you.


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I’m not sure how many times one will repeat this. We are working hard through the administrator to ensure that funding reaches students who should have funding. Not all of the outstanding number will receive their funding this week because there are queries, but what I’m happy about is that we actually now have numbers that we can have assurance that they give us a proper picture of the problem.

You will also be aware that we had been releasing upfront payments to institutions; and that students had signed to indicate that they have received money. So there are steps that we have taken, significant funds were released in April, a further tranche in June. So we had been making funding available.

As to the challenges or problems being entirely related to the announcement of free higher education for poor and working- class students, I’m afraid I cannot agree. I believe it is a factor, but it can’t be entirely laid at the door of that announcement, particularly given that you have outstanding


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applications not processed from 2017, before the announcement was made.

So no, I don’t believe that it rest entirely with this announcement. I believe there are many other factors, and this is why the set of issues to be addressed are so many, it is not just one thing, because there are many - many human resources and other issues that are related to the inadequacies that we identified. Thank you very much, Chair.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Minister, no doubt this question is related to the previous one. I want to refer again to the previous briefing that the portfolio committee recently held, and where management, the board of NSFAS student formations, TVET college principals and other stakeholders attended and make presentations. The issue of the usage of technology and the devolution of the system came quite sharply; and it was also mentioned that there are other centres that will be utilised like municipalities and centres where the broadband for technology is available they will be used.


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Can you inform this House hon Minister what is it that has been done to ensure that those centres will be utilised. Thank you.


they have not been used, because as I have said what we need to work on is developing a system and process that we will be assured will work in the way that we wish it to, which efficiently and in the interest of students.

So at this point we haven’t got to where you would like us to be, but we have agreed with the administrator that better use of information systems will vastly improve what we are able to do. So already we have begun speaking to libraries for an example, many of which are connected throughout the country; and they are willing to allow young people and to support them as they apply.

You know, schools have media centres, computer centres because they teach computer applied – technologies; so already we have begun the discussions but I don’t want to say definitively, this is what is going to happen. I think we must investigate


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properly, because if you take a half measures that’s when you lend back to the kinds of problems we have had to deal with.

However, we are fully alert to the need to be brought up, to the need to use technology now appropriately and to the need to ensure that whatever we have is in association with post secondary institutions and not separate from them. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chairperson, Madam Minister, if it was not you, it was your predecessor who publicly admitted that NSFAS was under stress and as a result was facing serious burden, and to a point where it was collapsing under a heavy burden of bureaucratic and institutional corruption.

Now, if that was the admission made by your predecessor, what measures do you take to ensure that you turn the system around? The model that you are so fond of is it working and if it is not working why don’t you replace it with a working model?


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If social development can distribute social grants so effectively until the Gupta Minister was appointed, why don’t you use that model to distribute NSFAS for deserving students?



potso e ntle ...


... mme wa e senya fale le fale. Se re lekang go se dira ke go baakanya.


We would not have appointed an administrator if nothing was wrong. So that’s the first point that we have appointed someone who has assumed the full competency of the board. We have dissolved the board.

So I think recognise ...



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... gore tiro ya direga, gore re a araba fa go naleng mathata teng ...


...because, I think what you should do is acknowledge.


Fa o mpitsa mma [madam] ke a tshoga tlhe.


Thank you.

Question 50:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, indeed the Barberton area has 10 primary health care clinics, one community health centre, one district hospital and one TB specialised hospital. The community health centre operates on a 24 hour basis, seven days a week to ensure coverage; the 10 clinics operate only during the working hours of from seven in the morning until four in the afternoon.


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The Barberton District Hospital is on the heritage site and as such there are limitations in terms of what can be demolished and even when you refurbished their rules in terms of how you preserve the heritage component.

The nurses’ home is indeed dilapidated and it’s on the provincial programme for infrastructure for 2020-21. It is a matter which you will need to follow up with the province, whether it can be brought forward, but at the current moment what they are reporting is that the nurses’ home is on their programme for 2020-21 financial year.

With regard to the staff complement there are enough professional nurses in the entire health complex. Even though majority happens to be in the hospital and from time to time they also redeploy to the clinics. Definitely, there is a shortage of lower categories such as enrolled nurses, assisted nurses, administrative clerks, data capturers, cleaners and groundsmen. So, the provincial department is working on the recruitment process to increase the number of the lower categories which we have indicated that currently are running low. That’s what is being done to improve the health


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facilities and health services in the Barberton area. Thank you, hon Chairperson.


Mr W B MAPHANGA: Sihlalo Wendlu, angitibongele nakuwe Sekela Lendvuna ngemphendvulo yakho leletsa letsemba. Ngiyetsemba kutsi nemphakatsi walekhaya, eBbabtini – Emjindini, kumasipala wasekhaya uyativela kwekutsi litsini litiko mayelana netibhedlela tawo kanye nemitfolamphilo yawo.


The follow-up question, Chair: Is the any strategy in place to guard against nepotism and bribery during the recruitment process for increasing the number of staff at the lower categories? I thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, the issue of the process of recruitment really depends on the understanding that the provincial department, which is responsible for human resources will follow the laws of the country and make sure that any creation of posts, filling of posts should be done in line with the Public Service legislation and also the


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Constitution and other laws of the country in terms of making sure that it’s an open and transparent process of recruitment. Now that the hon member has raised concern, we will indeed make sure that we do check on that and make sure that is done according to the laws of the country. But we will also ask hon members as public representatives as well in their oversight role to help in terms of making sure that all our institutions follow the laws of the country in whatever operations, including staff recruitment. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, thank you Deputy Minister for the response. In your response you mentioned the role of provinces. Now we have two Ministers of Finance here and I think they will know more than anybody else that there has always been a problem with Provincial Infrastructure Grants spent by the provinces on providing infrastructure within those provinces. They have made challenges in that regard. I would like to know here. Has the Department of Health engaged with provincial MEC and put any of the on terms in terms of saying spend that money and provide health care services in the province or else we will come in and take over in terms of the Constitution which we are allowed to do? Thank you.


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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, well thank you, hon Singh, our approach is really that of corporative governance which is also within the spirit of the Constitution while accepting that ultimately national government has to oversee all the functions and activities. However, we work on the basis of corporate governance. We have baseline agreements in terms of guidelines, for instance, on staffing norms ... the kind of areas which we have agreed with all the provinces as areas on which none of us can compromise. So, on a regular basis, we have our National Health Council meetings which are preceded by meetings. The National Health Council is the Minmec for the Minister and MECs, but they are always preceded by regular meetings of the HODs where on the regular basis we get reports from each every one of the provinces. We may not be able to get all the details all the time – talking about area of infrastructure in the reporting from the chief financial officer, CFO, at the national level and also from our head of infrastructure. We hold a bird’s eye view of able to monitor in terms of the progress of the implementation on the key areas of service delivery in all the provinces.


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We hope that the issue of taking over will be really the last resort. We work on the basis that we have to support each other on the corporate governance approach. Thank you, hon Chair.

Ms L V JAMES: House Chair, every single hospital visited by the portfolio committee in the past six months, is affected by collapsing infrastructure, insufficient funding, staff shortages and backlogs on accounts. How can you possibly think of introducing the National Health Insurance, NHI, when you can’t even provide for basics? Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, I think we all admit the fact that as a country, we are going through difficult times, economically which is affecting our revenue. It’s common knowledge that over the last two to three years, the allocation of budgets to departments has either stagnated or in some cases reduced. But we are working with all our partners in the provinces to make sure that with the resources available, we have basic minimum standards through which every one of us is bound to comply. As a result of that, where we pick up problems like in the last few months where there were


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a number of reports as the hon member has indicated. We dispatched 200 officials from the national department to actually go out to all provinces to monitor for them, to see what the challenges are and give the necessary support. So we don’t just sit back and say there are these problems, but we work concurrently with our colleagues in the provinces to give the necessary support. Thank you, hon Chair.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Deputy Minister, we were shocked to find that Barberton Clinic has seven nurses – seven. It is operating with seven nurses and Barberton Hospital is operating with only 21 nurses. According to the information you have provided to us in the question for written reply, in that same question, we also asked you to indicate the number of staff vacancies at all health care facilities in Mpumalanga, but your department refused to provide such information. Now, as a Minister, you have failed to indicate the number of staff vacancies at all clinics and hospitals in Mpumalanga because you do not know how many vacancies are there of which is a reflection of your department. Is it because you are hiding something? If you are hiding something, why are you still


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occupying this position? If you do not know this information, why are you still occupying this position?





Funda njengami.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, I must indicate to the hon member that the question she raised is not a follow up to this question. It is a separate question. The question which was asked by the hon Maphanga did not ask for numbers of staffing. So the hon member might be referring to the findings, maybe to oversight visits or on a separate question. I can assure the hon member that we have nothing to hide. We can come back if specifically her interest is the actual numbers of staff members. We note what she has said, but if she can put in writing in terms of specifically which areas.
The numbers are not part of this particular question. We will


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be able to come back, we have nothing to hide and I am sure that our counterparts in the Mpumalanga province also have nothing to hide because they are public servants. Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]

Question 80:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, this is concerning the costing of the National Health Insurance, NHI, the costing of NHI is a complex exercise that at best will provide an estimate based on a set of assumptions. The purpose of the costing exercise is to provide an estimate of the programmes for the purpose of planning. The difficulty with this costing exercise is that it is being done while there is significant changes to the structure of the health system. We have to remember that we are not only changing the system of financing but also the organisation of the entire health system such as the points of entry into the system, referral system to higher levels of care, collective procurement of goods, alternative mechanisms of reimbursement, amongst others. The impact of these interventions combined with the other changes in the environment, the burden of disease, health-seeking behaviour, pricing of services etc will have an


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influence on the final cost. Hence the total cost of NHI depends on a number of implementation methods which will obviously lead to widely different results so it is virtually impossible that you can pin to a particular figure. We want to just say to the hon members that, indeed if you look at the fact that what the NHI will entail is making sure that you pool together a single purchaser of services for the entire population and also the pooling of the funds. That in itself gives you volume through which you are able ... the mistake which quite often hon members make is to look at the cost of service especially at private care services in terms of individual costs whereas here we are talking about pooling of a common purchaser which will then be able to negotiate prices.

We have various examples, if you look at ARVs, when we started people thought it was unaffordable but because we used the volume, we were able to negotiate the costs such that currently they are one fifth or even one tenth of what they would have been if it was individual cost. But we can also just indicate that there was a cost estimate done by Treasury some few years ago at 2010 prices and they arrived at the cost


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which was saying that, implementation of the NHI would cost R256 billion, which was R70 billion short of the fiscus. If you look at the fact that ... if you look currently, the total gross domestic product, GDP, spent on health is over
R400 billion. If you look at the restructuring of not just the services but also the funding, you realise that once you restructure the private side and some of those funds come into the pool, this will, even in terms of that estimate, it will be affordable. Thanks hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m informed that hon James will take charge of the question as asked by hon Wilson.

Ms L V JAMES: House Chair, Deputy Minister principally the NHI is going to cost billions. Given the disproportionate unemployment figures and declining medical aid membership along with the current fiscal constraints in South Africa, will you advise exactly where the money to fund the NHI will come from.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well hon member, as I have already alluded to even on a simple, basic, scientific study


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commissioned by National Treasury in 2010 done by actuaries, looking at all kinds of factors, they had arrived on a cost basis, at that stage, on 2010 prices, of R256 billion. I am saying to the hon members that, if you consider the fact that on the one hand the cost of services ... most of the services
– let’s start there – we would want to make sure that they are acquired within a public service-based platform that is the first starting point. And only when you can not get those services, by improving through the pooling of funds, improving the public service platform, then you acquire some of those services from private providers but within even that model which was done in 2010, the shortfall is far lower than the total spent in terms of the GDP spent on health.

What it says is, once you start restructuring, some of the funds which are now are going into private health are also finding their way to bring them through the very medical aids, bringing all those into one pool then it will be possible to fund the NHI. There might still be some additional resources to be sourced but it will not be really something which is totally unaffordable. Thanks Chair.


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Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, siyavumelana la ne-NHI ngoba izosiza abantu bakithi abahluphekayo kodwa njengoba ezempilo ziwa phansi ubuthaphuthaphu nenkohlakalo idla lubi njengoba sibona kwenzeka la emhlabeni, ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi-ke, njengoba nekhanda lakhe uNgqongqoshe uma ulibheka lididekile, liyaduma, alazi lizothatha kuphi-ke ... nithini ngale nkohlakalo ekhona lana?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thanks hon member, the issue of the challenge of corruption, maladministration does not depend on what system you are operating in, it is an issue of malice in society. Whether you use NHI or you whatever Mam’Khawula may want to implement ... [Interjections.]


... Ayi! Isizulu sami siyabheda baba. [Ubuwelewele.]

ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Awusizame kodwa! [Ubuwelewele.]



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So ... what I am saying is that the issue of dealing with maladministration and corruption is a matter which we do not even have to be waiting for NHI for, we must defeat corruption and maladministration in whatever system we are operating in. It is matters which of course, as you plan for a new system; you then must identify the risk areas and make sure that you have got effective systems of mitigating against those risks. But I want to contend that is not something which must even wait for the implementation of the NHI and that is why as this government, as the ANC, we are focused on making sure that we deal with corruption, as the President has said many times.
Thank you, hon Chair.

Ms H O MKALIPHI: Order! Order Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Mkaliphi?


Nk H O MKALIPHI: Sihlalo, nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo. Ngicela ukubuza, yindaba uNgqongqoshe uPhaahla


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... can not speak in Zulu? Phaahla? [Interjections.]


Hayibo! Hhayi Phaahla.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Hlala phansi mama.


Ms H O MKALIPHI: You must tell us if you are a fake Phaahla. No! [Interjections.]

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Hlala phansi!


That is not an order.

Ms H O MKALIPHI: No! He is not a white person, he is Phaahla.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon members, can we allow hon Singh to pose the question.

Mr N SINGH: ... somebody who has been described as a certain leading academic, Frans Cronjé states, and I want to quote that, “the National Health Insurance Scheme is nothing other than”, “essentially a form of expropriation without compensation for the private healthcare industry.” Now we as the IFP believe that all South Africans must have access to quality healthcare that is sine qua non in terms of what our Constitution enjoins us to do. What I would like to know, in terms of costs and containing costs hon Deputy Minister, through you hon Chair, what kind of synergistic relationship is envisioned between private healthcare practitioners and service providers and government to ensure that equitable access to healthcare takes place for all South Africans. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, again I want to say that the principal differences here is that what is envisaged is to make sure that when you compare what we have now and what we are envisaging. Let me just say a hon member


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has broken a leg and needs an orthopaedic surgeon to operate, at the current moment you have to go to an orthopaedic surgeon and you will be told that it is going to cost so much, the hospital is going to cost so much and so on. Now, what is envisaged is a situation where if you take the Cape Town Metro for instance and you have got a number of wards and sections and whatever and so on. In a particular section, as an example, we will have an agreement with a group of orthopaedic surgeons to say, you are going to service this particular area as an orthopaedic surgeon, this is the population, anybody with a broken leg here, we will pay you so much per month and you are going to attend to anybody with a broken leg. So the individual member with a broken does not then have to negotiate price because that specialist has got an agreement with the NHI to service the people of that area, at a particular reimbursement per month or per six months or per year and whatever. So that cuts out also the issue of fee-for- service. So it is not a question that when somebody comes then so many bandages and whatever but you are costed in terms of the population you are looking after and the average number of operation you are going to perform per month, per six months and you are reimbursed accordingly. So that is how you can


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then negotiate the fees and the doctor is assured that he/she is going to get so many patients because they are already under the scheme. I am just giving the members some examples of what we are envisaging how the system would work. Thanks hon Chair.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, whilst we support the implementation of the NHI programme, can you assure this House that the implementation will not cost the taxpayers another 1% or more as we have seen in this current year from 14% to 15% as well as the increase on fuels.


Ukubona kanye ukubona kabili, awuchaze Sekela Ngqongqoshe.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, well I do not think anybody can really focus on ... I would be dishonest to come and say, in this House, that, you know; when the scheme comes there will not be a half a percent income tax ... or in some other area and it is impossible to want to commit to that. But as I have mentioned earlier on, just when you look at the total spent, the fact that we are already at 8,5% of


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GDP spent across private and public. If you were just to look at ... in other words if you combine what is spent currently in public and in private and you look at the cost of looking well after the whole population, it is possible if it is rationalised properly without additional costs

So the challenge is going to be just in terms of how well we can reorganise the system, how can we reorganise the funding and make sure that the funds go to the right places and overexpenditure, perverse incentives is dealt with and is properly managed. I can assure the hon members that if we work properly, with the support of everybody, it is possible and it is possible within the current national GDP spent. Thanks hon Chair.

Question 97:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, the hon member wanted to know about graduates who are now without jobs. Indeed, there were these young professionals who are skilled and very capable and qualified. We recruited them due to their qualifications. They all have university degrees in the fields of human resource, finance and IT. In total we recruited 400


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of them during the period of 2012-2017. We had a programme on strengthening health care systems which was financed through the European Union.

So, these unemployed graduates were sent to the school of governance to be trained in governance. The European Union then provided them with a stipend during the training, which was a form of an internship. On completion of training they were deployed to hospitals where they did a very good job.
During that time, the European Union continued to provide the stipend for a year. After that, we again signed a two-year fixed contract with them and they were paid a salary, also funded by the European Union. It was agreed that after the expiry of the two-year contract, the provinces will deploy them permanently because they would have seen their worth. Two years after the expiry of the contracts, the provinces were not able to do that because they said they didn’t have the funds and that they are not ready to employ those graduates permanently.

We negotiated with the European Union which extended the contract for another two years. Unfortunately, after two years


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also expired, again the provinces still pleaded poverty saying that they didn’t have the funds to employ them permanently.
So, at the end these graduates were not really dismissed, it’s just that because most of the provinces said they didn’t have the funds, their contracts were not extended. So, we are still discussing this with all our colleagues in the provinces because there is no question that these graduates were adding value. So, it is an on-going matter which we keep on raising but they come back to us to say they don’t have adequate funding.


Motlatsamodulasetulo (Moh M G Boroto): Ke a leboga. Mme Mkhaliphi, ke boleletswe gore ke wena yoo tla tsayang potso ya tlaleletso.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Yes ma’am. Thank you Deputy Minister, but how is that possible that provinces can run out funds? You must just tell us here that it is because of corrupt and in your corruption you just compromised young skilled unemployed youth. About 322 in numbers and then you come and tell us here in this Parliament that provinces said they don’t have funds


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while we know very well that your department is engulfed by corruption.

So, Deputy Minister please come forward and tells us; what is your plan to rescue these young skilled young professionals because we need their skills? You can’t be hiding behind the money that was sourced from the European Union because we, in this Parliament have given you funds but it’s just that there is no political will. Just come clean and tell us what are you doing about your corrupt officials who are looting the department in the expense of the youth of this country? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well Chairperson, I think that’s a topic of another day of agreement and discussion. We don’t dispute the fact that both in the public and in the private sector in South Africa generally, we do have a challenge of corruption which we need to root out but you can’t just put every challenge on the door of that. The hiring of stuff is the competence of provinces in terms of our current dispensation, especially when you want to hire people on a permanent basis.


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At national level through conditional grants, we can from time to time receive money and provide services through and on a contractual basis. But once you go into permanent posts, that rests with Treasury and the department’s accounting officer and executing officer at a political level, at the provincial level. So, as I said, it’s a matter which we are discussing on a regular basis and we hope that at some stage because there was no argument about the competence and the value act of these of young people. We hope that this matter will be resolved in a very amicable way and many of them can get employed again. Thank you, Chair.

Mr A F MAHLALELA: House Chair, taking into consideration the importance of health workforce cadres to improve access to health care for all and achieve the health outcomes in the context of the vision that requires improved management of health professional and cadres. We want to understand Deputy Minister, to what extend did the department undertake gap analysis of the health support workforce as part of a process in preparation for the implementation of the National Health Insurance, NHI. If such analysis was done, what is the gap analysis that you found; the workforce that will support the


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health services in order for it to function properly and if not - why not? [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair and hon member, indeed we have done an analysis at various levels, from a primary health, district, and regional, up to tertiary and also at our academic complexes. The general finding is that in many of our areas, we are heavy on administrative stuff rather than technical stuff, both at the level of support level, technical in terms of financial management engineering services and so on and also; at the level of health profession services, the human resource element in those areas.

In some areas also just to give the hon member some examples, our staffing is also quite skewed. If you look at the nursing area for instance, the public sector is stuffed in a skewed way in which the professional nurses who are the most senior in the nursing profession, in our public health services, you have a majority of that rather than your enrolled nurses and the assistant nurses whereas, the correct staffing is that it should be the other way around. You should have more enrolled nurses; more assistance nurses, and so on and then has fewer


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professionals. So there is a lot which needs to be re- organised in the public health system and we assist in that matter and that’s why as part of the implementation of the National Health Insurance, we have a specific subcommittee which is looking at the provision of human resources for health. So, that is a matter which we are definitely attending to. Thanks, hon Chair.

Ms L V JAMES: Chair, given the moratorium on the employment of non medical personnel, how do you expect to solve the staff and services defect in hospitals across the country? Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, let me say from the start that we are not aware of any moratorium. What we know is that in most of our provinces their expenditure on compensation of employees is very tight. It is starting to suffocate other services especially we look recently also with the agreement on the 7%. So every other addition which increases the compensation of employees is suffocating the goods and services and other areas.


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So, there is no formal moratorium anywhere as far as we have interrogated that matter because it has been out there in the public but most of our colleagues in the provinces have this tight management. We have also said as we have been discussing that it is also not helpful, for instance, if you go, some of the - I won’t mention the area, but one of the areas we found that because they have not been employing porters, now you have nursing sisters and doctors having to double up as porters. Now that’s a wasteful expenditure because you are taking a highly skilled person’s time they should be spending with patients, now they also have to also wheel patients from casualty to theatre and so on.

So, it’s a matter that which we are discussing to say, how do you reprioritise whilst the fiscus is still tight? So I want to dispute that there is no province as far as we know which actually has a moratorium. It is just the tightness of the fiscus

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Minister, you have just alluded to the fact that there are discussions that are continuing with the provincial departments on matters that are mentioned in the


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question. But it seems as if all these questions are informal and yet the public health system is collapsing especially in townships, its collapsing a lot. There are no employees that have skills, yet we have dismissed so many young graduates.

Now, hon Deputy Minister is it not possible that you pilot some legislation that would make it tighter for the department to work in collaboration with the provincial departments so that these things are enforced.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, I wouldn’t agree that the discussions are informal because the National Health Council is actually regulated in terms of the National Health Act, so, its decisions are actually quite formal. Nevertheless, while that is true, it’s at a level of policy and decision making to say these are the priorities. But as national department and Ministry of Health, after having agreed that these are the priorities, we cannot physical create the post, advertise it and fill it, in terms of our dispensation, that how from a Constitutional point of view to the legal framework, that’s a regulation how it functions.


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So we can influence – we can determine policy and priorities but we can’t physically implement. But that is a matter of a subject of discussion of this House. At some stage through the necessary systems this House comes to a determination that indeed, certain aspects of how the architecture of our Constitutional and legal arrangement is not helpful. It’s open to the hon House to review some of those provisions.

Question 55:


response to question 55, we are guided by our National Sport and Recreation Plan that is seeking to ensure that at least 50% of South Africans participate in sport and recreation and that sustainable talent is identified and developed through programmes that would ensure that we transform the demographics of the sport sector.

Since the inception of the ring fenced R300 million in sport infrastructure in 2016, 94 municipalities, in all nine provinces across the country, have benefitted and many of these beneficial municipalities appreciate our model of delivery as the most effective and appropriate.


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This is because, in their own acknowledgement, the 5% that they are expected to spend on sport facilities from the normal International Management Group, IMG, is too insignificant to deliver even the most basic sport and recreation facility.
Thus compelling them to redirect such to other priorities like water and sanitation and this was amongst many reasons why municipalities were not building sport infrastructure.

The continuation of this model serves to guarantee that in the next three to four years, all municipalities in the country would have built at least one multifaceted facility under this intervention and as such facilities will be built in the areas of greatest need.

Our involvement in the allocation of IMG for sport infrastructure, including support and monitoring of projects, has made it virtually impossible for projects to remain in a state of incompleteness and therefore we are ensured that we will deliver on these facilities and ensure that we have the required results. Thank you.


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Mr S G MMUSI: The National Development Plan, NDP, envisions a nation that participates fully and liberates itself from the conditions that hinder the flowering of its talent. The question is: What challenges have been experienced and how will they be addressed to ensure that there is improved access to participation opportunities through the approved National Facilities Plan?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Indeed, it has not been easy to ensure that we are of the same understanding with the municipalities. Some are in various stages of completion because it took long for municipalities to buy in and understand the model. We hope that it is now going to move with more integration and that our facilitation is enhanced to make sure all critical role players participate.

In addition, the funding remains minimal but we hope that we will be able to complete these facilities. It will also encourage the National Treasury and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, as well as key role players to understand that the current 3% of what we have from the MIG


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needs to be increased because it remains a very powerful tool in ensuring that we redress the past imbalances.

We continue working with municipalities in ensuring that with the current funding that we have we are able to provide a facility that could be used by both communities and schools in the nearby to provide facilities and open opportunities to our young people in schools and in rural communities where we can identify a talent and nurture it. Thank you.

Mr S P MHLONGO: On behalf of Commissar Matiase, the glaring reality in South Africa is that we have a situation of two worlds in one: One with better sporting facilities in the white dominated areas and, I cannot say dilapidated sporting facilities in the townships and rural areas because sports in the townships has already been completely abandoned since the dawn of democracy.

What are you doing as the Minister of Sport and Recreation to inject the love of sport in black townships and rural areas in order to ensure that they also participate in sport effectively and get good sporting facilities?


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The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Maybe the hon member is not very close to what South Africa does when it comes to sport - South Africa is a very active nation and it is critical for us to ensure that we have facilities closer to people so that not only those who already benefit from the programmes that we have continue to do so. That is what we are seeking to address with the sport plan moving towards our vision 2030.

The plan that is there with the current budget seeks to ensure that we target our rural areas and townships with the infrastructure that we are building and at the same time, the memorandum of understanding that has been signed with the Department of Basic Education, seeks to ensure that we are able to build infrastructure and make sure that our schools become active by having time to do sport in schools and make sure that those facilities are able to open opportunities for our young people to also compete in the space of sport.

It is not only those facilities that were already there - maybe you will be interested to see or have a list of those facilities as we are busy building, those that we have already


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built and those that we are rolling out to handover to communities plus all those that we have identified to build with our R287 million in this current financial year. Thank you.

Mr K P SITHOLE: To the hon Minister, what results have been obtained specifically in townships and rural areas in respect of access to sport facilities for people living in these areas?

Facilities in townships are in a state of poor, despair and are dilapidated. What is being done to address this? What transformation is in place to develop and scout young talent in our rural areas and townships ...


... ngoba njengoba sikhuluma nawe Ngqongqoshe kunezinhlangano zesibhakela ezikhona emalokishini, azinakiwe futhi ke abantu abazama ukuthi bazivuse abanalo uncedo abaluthola kuhulumeni. Ngingathokoza uma singathola impendulo.



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indicated, with the start of this infrastructure rollout in 2016, as we speak now, we are handing over more than 11 of these facilities that have been completed to various townships and communities. We are in partnership with the National House of Tradition Leaders to reach out to councils in rural areas.

That has already given us a space where we are able to channel our interventions in terms of our partnerships in scouting of talents in those rural areas and have great strides in making sure that young people from rural areas and townships are able to participate in sport and that they are part of the high performance sport as we speak. Those are the kind of trends that we see.

In this financial year, with the current budget, I indicated earlier on that it seeks to also grow further but I may hastily say that the private sector has come into play. We also have those sport facilities in addition to those that government is funding through the sports trust. So, that in itself has added up on the number of infrastructures we have built in both rural and urban areas.


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We make sure that talent is identified at these facilities, and then we give bursaries – not to everybody but where we can afford - to enhance on their capabilities and ensure that they also participate in high performance programmes. Thank you.

Mr D BERGMAN: Minister, any answers that you give now surely must be speculative. The only real hard evidence that you can use to attest to this would be through a full and comprehensive field and facility audit both in the communities and schools.

We have been told that this exercise has been undertaken but when will we know and see the results?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Maybe the hon member may also go to the provincial legislature of the Western Cape where I was sent a motion that was applauded by all members there when we went to handover a sports facility in Beaufort West and Swellendam – the latest that we have handed over.

I am just mentioning the Western Cape but in the other provinces we have details of what has been handed out and what


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is in the pipeline. The Deputy Minister and myself hand over sport infrastructure every second week of the month.

The sport infrastructures are not targeting individuals; our communities are now working together. So, a sport infrastructure, like the one we were handing over in Limpopo, accommodates about 11 schools and community clubs are able use it because there is such working together amongst communities which is what we are seeking to build as we build cohesive communities. Thank you.

Question 48:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, it looks like the main people who must get paid overtime today is hon Singh and I. [Interjections.] You will get the overtime incentive. The SA Health Products Regulatory Authority, Sahpra, have up to date received 26 applications for the cultivation and manufacturing of the active pharmaceutical ingredients which are tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabidiol. These are active ingredients of cannabis, commonly known as dagga.


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Only two applicants wish to do research on the formulation. However, of the inspected facilities, only three were in an advanced state of readiness for the cultivation of cannabis. The rest of the facilities did not have basis infrastructure, such as security, which was nonexistent in some of the areas. Cultivation areas were not ready. No quality systems were developed.

So, at this stage, the applications either further the balance of the 26 out of the 11. That means 15 out of those are still to be inspected. The findings are general though that many of them are not ready in terms of the requirements for the licensing process.

In terms of Black Economic Empowerment: Of those who have been received, 11 of them come from African applicants. Five of them from black participants broadly. 11 of them come from white community applications. One applicant has already withdrawn though.

The process going into the future is that the team from Sahpra will continue to do this evaluation of applications, visit


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sights where people had applied, interrogate that and see. When they find shortcomings, they would them the report back to say you are not ready in terms of ABCD. So, it is up to the applicant to come back when they are ready to be within the requirements of the rules and regulations. Thanks Chair.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, cannabis or marijuana or intsangu, are the common names for these things that we saw before. However, thank you for your response. I note that Sahpra are under immense logistical and resource constraints. You have also indicated to us that there are 26 licence applications that have been made.

I am also advice that pertaining to the current licence application procedure, the requirement is between R10 and
15 million to satisfy agricultural start-up requirements – that’s to grow cannabis – and up to R30 million for a laboratory set up and compliance. Now, hon Deputy Minister, this rules out the small grower.

I understand that you said there are black economic empowerment companies and BBB, EEE, but: How do we as


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government provide a way for smaller growers, who have been growing this for many years? I see Minister Nkwinti is looking at me because sometimes they say the best product comes from the Eastern Cape. How do we bring them into the fore? How are we going to assist? In that regards, how are we going to assist with the cultivation of hemp? Has there been any discussion between you and the Ministers of Trade and Industry and of Agriculture on the cultivation of hemp, which is a much easier product to grow and that can bring in hundreds of millions of rands into our country? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, indeed it is true that Sahpra is under tremendous pressure. Not only in terms of this particular product, but in terms of other pharmaceutical products regarding the slow processing. We are in the process of increasing capacity.

As you would know, not long ago, we passed the legislation for the establishment of Sahpra, moving away from the old structure which was the Medicines Control Council. Actually, they are in some transitional period and they have given us a report in terms of how they are improving their capacity.


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We will indeed look at the point that the hon member has brought up in terms of those financial requirements for setting up. I must admit that one did not go into the detail of the report - when they say the site is not ready – because they indicated that most of the applicants would say they are ready for inspections but when Sahpra goes to sites they find that very basic needs have not been met.

However, I was not aware that in terms of compliance, those are the kind of costs involved because then indeed the hon member would be correct to note that it would exclude small growers and will perpetuate inequality. We have inequality in other aspects. Now, if we then also have inequality on cannabis, which our people have been growing on the mountains for donkey years, I think it will definitely be very unfair.

We will indeed listen to the advice of the hon member, go into some details and also engage Trade and Industry in terms of their production and marketing of hemp as a product as well.


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Ms D CARTER: Chair it is a bit difficult to ask a question after hon Singh. Mine is pretty much aligned the same. So, Deputy Minister, I think it is just important to see: If we look at the regulations and controls that are being put in place, it is going to be very difficult for communities – for example, the Dukuduku Forest or even in the Drakensburg area - to ever compete with multinational companies. It seems like it is going to be the multinational companies that will actually benefit from it, especially looking at the stringent regulations and controls. How will it still take and what can we do actually to get the process going in faster, enabled in our communities?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, indeed, we will have to look at this issue because the balance here is not striking: On the one hand we have to make sure that when the licence is issued, there is adequate security protection in terms of possibilities of abuse, contributing to a society which is already burdened with drug abuse; and on the other hand make sure that there are adequate controls on the production as well as the processing level.


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We will indeed look, together with our colleagues in Trade and Industry possibly, whether there are models which could be followed in terms of some consortiums, co-operatives, etc, which will then enable small growers to also have a chance, provided they are organised and funded in a manner that they will still comply with regulations so that we also don’t fall wrong on the side of security of the product. Thanks Chair.

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Minister, the government has failed in all other industries, such as in mining, BEE and all sorts of industries. The only industry which is untapped is around the exploitation of marijuana. This is a windfall; this is a God- given industry which you must demonstrate if you are a revolutionary. Revolutionaries believe in practical action.
You must demonstrate that this industry will be protected and will be structured to benefit our people.

The question is: Why are you wasting time; why are you not putting resources together to exploit and beneficiate marijuana to ensure that our people have got at least something to hold on? We also want time frames, as in: When do


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you make a national announcement on the programme to exploit marijuana for beneficiation and for medicinal purposes.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, hon Chair, I would not necessarily agree with the hon member that this is the only economic avenue open for us to grow our economy, but it is one of those. Indeed, as I have said: We will go into the details of the requirements just to make sure that there is a balance; and will also engage other stakeholders who are more knowledgeable on industrialisation of marijuana.

We need a balance between regulation, security and licence conditions, but at the same time not inhibiting smaller players. It is a point which we take home quite warmly and we will indeed follow up. I am not able to give you time frames at this stage, but we will definitely engage with Sahpra and all the relevant authorities to make sure that there is compliance while simultaneously leaving a room open through various schemes, such that smaller players can come into this industry and exploit it.


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Mr A F MAHLALELA: House Chair, out of 26 applications, of which were Africans, taking into consideration the need to broadly represent South African society, including gender aspects: Deputy Minister, is it possible to expand on the representation of male and female applicants in relation to the 26 applications that you have received; and the extent to which Sahpra and you are putting mechanisms in place to make sure that you raise awareness amongst ordinary people so that they understand and seize this opportunity which is available at their disposal?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, at this stage, the indication which we got from Sahpra was that they didn’t go into calculating gender representation. They had also indicated that most of applications came more from entities or companies. So, one would need to further analyse them in terms of directorship and other membership in order to see who are leading those companies. So, that is a step which we will take further on now that the question regarding gender representation has been raised. We will go further to analyse that part.


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I must admit that up to this stage, we have largely been getting individual enquiries, from individual persons and some companies. So, it is correct to raise this aspect, as the hon member did. I think we have been very cautious to communicate the opportunity – maybe for good reasons. I am sure that hon members will agree that when you communicate, you will have to craft it in a very proper way so that it is not misinterpreted. It is an area which can easily be misinterpreted if you simple just say: There is now opportunity to grow cannabis. It can complicate things for Minister Cele. We may find ourselves talking at cross purposes with the Minister of Police. So that communication is accepted, but I think we will have to very carefully consider its content, as to what message we are publishing.

Question 49:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, yes hon members, malnutrition continues to be a problem in the country.
However, indications are that there is a decline in the number of deaths among children under five years from diarrhoea, pneumonia and severe acute malnutrition. In the latter, the


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rate of severe acute malnutrition has declined by up to 38% over the six years from 2011/12 to 2016/17.

The main causes of malnutrition is more of a socioeconomic issues; of poverty, poor hygiene, frequent infections such as diarrhoea, pneumonia but also people on treatment of chronic diseases such as Tuberculosis, TB, and human immunodeficiency virus, HIV. Household food security plays a major role of course; poor breast feeding of small babies, also poor levels of complementary feeding and delayed identification of the risk of malnutrition. There are programmes which have been put in place to deal with this. Of course, overriding that is addressing issues of poverty, food security, hygiene, nutrition and supply of micronutrients through fortification programmes such as; fortifying food with Vitamin A supplementation for the under five, promotion of breast feeding, implementation of the basic tool for children which is the road to health booklet, dealing with the prevention of mother to child transmission of HIV, immunisation and all those interventions. To also ensure that there is growth monitoring at the clinics so that children who are identified


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not to be growing or getting stunted can be identified early so that intervention can be made.

Community outreach programmes through community health workers is also part of the programme as they go into households amongst the things that they need to look at if there are children; is the road to health charts and be able to see if the child is growing adequately or if there are signs of malnutrition. There are steps which have been taken but I want to emphasise also that this is a challenge. This is an area that goes beyond health. It is one of those social determinants of health and if we improve the general wellbeing and income of society then malnutrition will be dealt with.
Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr A F MAHLALELA: Chair, I am sure that the Deputy Minister will agree with me that the problem of malnutrition is not simply solved by a mother choosing to breastfeed her child, many infants who are breastfed have mothers who are severely undernourished themselves. If a mother does not have sufficient nutrients herself she is much less likely to have sufficient nutrients in her breast milk. Thus, breast milk


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from undernourished mother is often lacking sufficient quantities of sufficient vital Vitamin B6 and folic acid which leads to nutrients deficiency in the child.

Deputy Minister, is there any plan to deal with the challenge of undernourished mothers, so that we are able to make sure that when they breast feed they also are not undernourished?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, indeed you are correct. That is why we often say that to guarantee a healthy infant baby under five up to 18 years of age does not start with childbirth but actually starts from conception hence the whole concept of the first 1000 days speaks exactly to that. I must admit that we cannot claim to have reached that full integration of our systems because it is a matter within our social sectors, amongst others we have been working with the Department of Social Development. However, in terms of the actual comprehensive package of intervention, I would admit that we are not yet there.

There are attempts to ensure that we move in that direction so that during antenatal visits we not only looking at whether


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the pregnant woman have no high blood pressure, diabetes and all those kinds of risks and that the baby in the womb the heart is beating well, is growing accordingly and all those kind of things but also to look whether the mother is well nourished so that there can be early intervention. This is because the whole notion of the first 1000 days is to make sure that from conception the mother is very healthy not only from disease but also in term of her nutrition status.

So, this is a matter which is work in progress. It is beyond just health and it needs all the social players to be involved so that we can come with that kind of comprehensive intervention. Thank you, hon Chairperson.


USOLWAZI N M KHUBISA: Sihlalo,Sekela Ngqongqoshe ngicabanga ukuthi uzowuphendula lo mbuzo ngesizulu ngoba wangitshela elinye igama elashiwo uMongameli wathi: ukuth usibani bani nosibani bani. Ngifisa ukubuza ukuthi Ngqongqoshe indaba esichitheka kakhulu edala ukuthi kube nokuthi izingane zingakhuli kahle, enye mhlambe sekukhona nokuchitheka kokudla osekubolile noma osekuphelelwe yisikhathi – kuchetheka saka


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ezweni lakithi. Mhlawumbe uzothi akuwona kuphela uMnyango wenu okufanele ubhekane nalento. Sekela Ngqongqoshe komasipala bekukhona laba bantu bezempilo ebebe hamba nje bebheka izitolo ukuthi ukudla sekuphelelwe yisikhathi bese beyasiza. Baya futhi nasemakhaya ukubheka ukubheka ukuthi izingane zikhula kanjani. Uma bebona ukuthi zixhwalile bese sisheshe ziye kwadokotela. Mhlawumbe bengingabuza ukuthi uMnyango wenzani ukulekelela kuleso simo, mhlawumbe uzothi usebenzisana neminye iMinyango ethintekayo? Ngiyabonga.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, the hon members are really testing my knowledge of IsiZulu today. Well, I will disappoint you because I can hear everything. I may not be able to respond in IsiZulu ...


... kodwa ngiyakuzwa. Ngikuzwile.


Well, the hon member I think is specifically is zeroing on the issue of food security, making sure that it is of good quality and not wasted or expired. This is an area that I must admit


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that it is a challenge. It is a challenge because the area of health inspection, as we know it, in terms of our current legislative constitutional arrangement architecture this has been devolved to our local authorities. In the past these professionals were employed at provincial level but subsequently - in terms of the arrangement of the law and the Constitution - it was devolved to local authorities.

Nevertheless, we are working with our provinces and the municipalities because there is an acceptance of the fact that municipalities are under pressure to deliver basic services in terms of sewerage, water, electricity, streets and other services. Therefore, this area of food inspection where food is being sold, it is lacking behind. With some of the provinces we have come into some agreement to say – because that is the reality despite the fact that legally it is at competence of local authorities – the provinces should come onboard and give that assistance. The things which you are mentioning are happening because where the responsibility lies
- we don’t have in most of the municipalities - the kind of competence of human resource to do that. Thank you.


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Ms C N MAJEKE: Deputy Minister, I am partly answered. I agree with you that the mothers should get the nutrition within the early 1000 days of conception of pregnancy as it is important for the development of a child. What I would like to know is; how far is the department in making sure that this is happening, mothers are getting nutrition within the first 1000 days? This is because of its importance of a development of a child from conception from few months up to two years is very critical. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, the reality of this is that this is not an area that can be intervened purely by the Department of Health alone hence it is featured in the social sector discussions. It is part of the area when we look at the concept of a comprehensive social security intervention, it is part of those services which we are looking at. It would mean especially the Department of Social Development playing a major role in integrating the issues of the various grants seeing where it can come in, South Africa Social Security Agency, Sassa, in terms of the food parcels, can the clinic refer pregnant women if they identified that there is certain nutrition which is lacking by referring to Sassa for a food


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parcel. Those are the things which we need to work on. Agriculture may need to come in, in terms of food banks and all those concepts. So, it is an area in which at the current moment I must say that I am not confident to say that we do have a system. However, it is something which we are working on and I am sure that in due course we will be able to arrive at the product which will talk to this through that comprehensive social security approach. Thank you.

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Chairperson, land and malnutrition are linked to the hip. Deputy Minister, you have to be ignorant or blind if you cannot link the high level of malnourishment especially to child malnourishment in this country to the land dispossession of the black majority by the white minority.
Your government goes on about South Africa being a food secure country but millions of household go hungry every night. We need household food security and the only way this can be achieved is through expropriation of land without compensation. It can be nationalised or redistributed to the people based on the needs ... [Interjections.]


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... hon member, your time has expired. What is the question? Do you want to ask a question?

Mr T E MULAUDZI: The question is, did your department have any input on the expropriation of land without compensation discussion as a cure in fighting the high level of malnutrition in this country?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, I think the hon member is trying to find blame where there is no blame because we have already even in my earlier answer I did say that in the comprehensive solution we are looking at including cultivation of food. You can only cultivate food on land that goes without saying. Again, the hon member is aware that the organisation that I belong to, the African National Congress, has been leading the processes on the issues of land from its founding in 1912, not now. The ANC has been leading from 1912 and is still leading even now. we are quite aware that many of these issues including malnutrition that if people have land, implements and other support they will be able to cultivate their food and be able to abolish malnutrition. So, he is


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preaching to the converted already as he is trying to find some way but there is just no entry point because we are already ahead of him. Thank you, Chair.

Question 51:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, in relation to the clinic in Ekurhuleni; Yes, the Goba clinic used to be a municipal clinic under the Ekurhuleni Metropolitan, but it has recently been converted or taken over by the province within the Ekurhuleni Health District of Gauteng, with effect from April 2017. It has moved from the municipal clinic to be a provincial clinic.

It is true that there are infrastructure challenges and the clinic does need improvement. The time of it being taken by the province, the province had already placed other clinics under their capital programme in the area. Just to give an example: there is Magagula Heights Clinic, Kwathema, Jabulane Dumane Community Health Centre and also Northmead.

The infrastructure plans for these facilities were put on hold as a result of budget constraints but will be considered in


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the next financial year. Therefore, it means that the Goba Clinic will be included by the Gauteng province in the next Medium-Term Financial, MTF, Capital Project Programme for Ekurhuleni Health District. The province has no additional posts for the clinic at the current moment. However, staffs are being redeployed from other facilities, to augment the staff members at this particular clinic and other local clinics.

This has resulted in the clinic being able to increase hours of operation. Previously, when it was under municipality, it was operating at an eight to four, five days clinic. It has now expanded services from seven in the morning until seven in the evening, on a daily basis, from the first of July of 2018. The need for more staff is being considered as funds become available and as I have already said, in terms of facility improvement, it has already been put on the next MTF, in terms of Gauteng Clinic Upgrade Programme. Thank you, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I have been informed that hon Nkonzo will take charge of the question in the absence of hon Ndaba.


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Mr T M NKONZO: Chairperson, with regards to general infrastructure challenges within health facilities, what is the National Department of Health doing to accelerate infrastructure planning, delivery, maintenance and revitalisation?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, over some years now, we have working with National Treasury in terms of infrastructure grant, part of which being - specifically in the National Health Insurance, NHI, pilot programme areas in the district of NHI pilot. But, we also have infrastructure grant which is distributed from national, working with all the provinces, where we doing regular planning, monitoring and implementation in all the provinces, at all the levels. From primary health, we do monitoring at a regular basis to see how many clinics are being upgraded, what the progress is and where it is necessary, we make sure that our technical team give support to the provinces.

So, much as one can’t say everything is working according to plan, you get challenges here and there, of capacity - sometimes in terms of the availability of funds for all the


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areas which needs attention. But we do have a system; we do monitor and support our districts and our provinces in terms of implementation of infrastructure upgrade. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: The next follow-up question is going to be asked by hon James. May I just ask the hon member of the DA who is standing in front of you hon James to take a seat, please.

Ms L V JAMES: Chairperson, how much has the lack of money been made worse by the first point, R2 billion that vanished when Brain Hlongwa was the MEC?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, this is not a relevant question to this particular matter. First of all, I don’t have the knowledge of somebody making money vanish. I am sure the relevant authority with capacity to verify that kind of allegation should be the ones to whom the question should be directed.

However, I must just say that in implementing these programmes of infrastructure - because this is what is all about, we do


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try by all means to work with our colleagues in the provinces to make sure that they can be accountability. If we say that, this is the plan, this is the estimated cost, there must be a reason. You can’t just have cost variation, escalation which is inexplicable. So, those are the kind of steps which are taking to make sure that money is not lost in the implementation. But, what the hon member has said, I have no knowledge of that. Thank you.


Mnu K P SITHOLE: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngicabanga ukuthi umtholampilo iGoba iwona mtholampilo e-Katlehong ethwele umthwalo omningi noma abantu abaningi kodwa inkinga obhekana nayo wukuthi uma ukhuluma ngesifundazwe sase-Gauteng asinazo izinsiza zokuthi ukwazi ukunceda lowa mtholampilo kangangokuba ngisho abantu bakhona baze abanye bakhuphuke bazoncedwa yiPhenduka eThokoza. Umbuzo uthi, yikuphi eningakwenza mnyango kazwelonke ukunceda isifundazwe nokunceda isimo sokuhlupheka kwabantu ngoba izingqalasizinda ezikhona laphaya ayisavumi, yindala emtholampilo yaseGoba.


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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, as the response has indicated, we have an undertaking from the relevant authority, which is the Gauteng Department of Health that the Goba Clinic is in their plans. The best we can do is to make sure that we hold them accountable. We will work with them through our infrastructure team in the national department.
Because once a province says to us these are priorities for the coming year, in of terms of the infrastructure grant, what we can do through our team, is to monitor that, and when the submission are given for the next financial year, we can actually check whether this clinic amongst the primary health, is actually included in terms of the implementation of the next financial year and monitor that going forward.

So, that’s the undertaking we can give to the member that, indeed, we will follow up, through the submission of the actual plans, through the financial plans, which they are going to submit and satisfy ourselves that it’s not just as an answer, but it is actually, because we will see those plans.
All the Provinces do submit to us their plans for each financial year in terms of infrastructure plans. So we will be able to monitor that. Thank you.


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Ms N K F HLONYANA: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, this is a yes or no question and no speeches, please. [Laughter. Our public health care system is collapsing. Clinics are falling apart, equipments are broken, and there are staff shortages and our people crying because clinics are not always open. It is common sense that people do not choose when they get sick, so it makes no sense that clinics, especially public clinic, not to open 24 hours, seven days a week. As the EFF, we are tabling a Bill which will address this problem, so that the clinics will be open 24/7. Would you support this Bill?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the member goes on to lead by wrong example. She gives a very long speech and then expects a yes or no. She should have led by example, just two words maybe and then say answer with two words. To answer you hon member, you see, you assume that the reason why some clinics do not operate 24 hours is because they lack a law or regulation, which is not the case. There are two many issues which come into play. That would be a disastrous Bill, disaster. That would be disastrous because there are very clear conditions under which you have to prioritise to say, this area needs a clinic.


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To give you an example; there are clinics which operate in areas where generally they service working people. People who are there eight to five and the service is provided so that when they are at work, when they fall sick, they can walk across and get serviced. At five o’clock they knock off, they go home. If they fall sick at home, so why are going to keep a clinic nearer to workplaces for 24 hours, wasteful expenditure.

There are conditions which must be examined, determined, does this area need 24-hour service and then you designate it. So, I am afraid if the EFF ever comes to power this government will collapse. If you are going to do 24-hour clinics everywhere in the country, then the whole government will collapse in that system. Thank you. [Applause.]

Question 57:

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, House Chair. The purpose of the women and sport policy would be to redress the imbalances on women in sport and recreation in South Africa through ensuring that access to resources; they are achievable and fully inclusive. This will ensure


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empowerment through conscious and recommitted provision of equal opportunities for sustaining full participation, recognition and development, irrespective of ability, disability, race, class, sexual preference, religious beliefs and cultural diversity.

The purpose is to increase participation of women at all levels of sport and recreation in order to achieve gender equity. Further, the policy will also consider the contents of the promotion of equality and prevention of unfair Discrimination Act, Act No. 4 of 2000, which ensure equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms by every person and provide measures to facilitate the eradication of unfair discrimination, hate speech, harassment, particularly on the ground of race, gender and disability. This policy will incorporate resolutions or call to action or declarations of the various international women and sport conferences and domesticate them.

This will also address itself to incentives for companies sponsoring women in sport in the form of higher tax rebates. It will look into recognition and accolades for companies


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sponsoring women’s sport. It will also lobby Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa, for sport broadcasting regulations, which includes a code of a women’s sport coverage. It will work with Commission on Gender Equality and the Department of Women to call on public hearings in which the national federations will be called upon to outline their immediate plans to achieve gender parity in sport in line with the provisions of the promotion of equality and prevention.

It will also allow for Ministerial directives in line with the findings of the Eminent Person’s Group, EPG, and enforce those directives by linking the annual findings to achievements.

It will also consider the new category of women’s recognition awards of the Ministerial recognition. So, these measures together with the political leadership and tone should be sufficient to ensure that greater progress in the medium-term is achieved. I thank you.

Ms B N DLULANE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. I want to tell you that we would love to support you on what you have


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just said in the world of the male dominated sport. You know what? In order that you must achieve your ... my responses ... I may ask you, may you then advice this House what your short- term, medium-term and long-term plans in achieving these objectives? You need to be very strong? We will support you as the committee.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, hon chairperson of the portfolio committee. Women in sport in the month of August converged for the first time as women across the spectrum to begin a dialogue that seeks to explain what these women and sport policy entails.

As part of the process moving forward, we also don’t want to have dialogues that will end up without action by making sure that already, the draft that we have, which was the basis of the initiation of the dialogue as we were also commemorating the centenary of Mama Albertina Sisulu, presented us with some inputs that begin to chart way forward towards our October programme where the management of the department is convening a workshop.


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We will try to finalise the inputs into our document. In November, we will be looking into having a signed of departmental document and draft it to gazette for public input. By March 2019, we want to convene a mini workshop, a conference for women so that we can present these and finalise the policy that we want to implement by 2019. Thank you.

Mr T W MHLONGO: Thanks, House Chairperson. Minister, we do support women’s development in sports. But I wanted to find out, Minister, why especially, do you use grouping for us to make sure that we address the imbalances of the past? For example, Minister, you are not adhering to your own, you have admitted today that you believe in EPG but using grouping. Now I am asking you, do you exactly understand or you will be happy with the outcomes of the tool that you are using because their outcomes are failing us? Now you are coming with the policy that will take time as you are saying will look into in 2019. Now, what I am asking you Minister is, do you believe in PEG? But why are you using groups?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much. Maybe you did not hear me well, hon member. EPG is a tool that


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I use as the Minister and the Department of Sport and Recreation to drive transformation in the department. So, I will continue to support and have confidence in it moving forward because I set up the agenda for what they have to look at in terms of the transformation of sport in South Africa.

The next thing is that South Africa and the population is as unequal. So, we have to deal with issues of inequality. We have to deal with issues of poverty. We have to deal with issues of employment. Therefore, you have vulnerable groups in women, youth and people with disabilities.

Looking into the programme in the Department of Sports and Recreation and in the sport fraternity in general, those are the vulnerable groups. At least at the moment, we have programmes that we can see progress on although not yet satisfied that are youth oriented as well as people with disability oriented but women’s specifically, it’s happening in several corners, it’s not integrated. It is not getting the kind of attention, which is what we seek to ensure that all our vulnerable groups are part of our prioritised programme and are infused into the overall programme. Thank you.


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Mnu K P SITHOLE: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe eminye imibuzo usuyiphendulile kodwa engifuna ukukwazi ukuthi nhlelo zini eninazo njengoMnyango zokunceda abesifazane emdlalweni wezamangqindi ngoba uma ubheka yilapho abangancedakali khona futhi nezinkundla zemidlalo zokuthi bakwazi ukuziqeqesha benze nezinto eziphatheleni nezamangqindi ezingekho. Ngicela ukubuza ukuthi yiziphi izinhlelo ezikhona eMnyangweni?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. I can see hon Sithole and boxing, as long as you don’t talk boxing then you have not answered it. Hon member, the programmes for boxing are part of programmes that Boxing South Africa undertakes and reports on. We fund them according to what we seek to do in terms of their programmes that are talking to the transformation that we talked about.

At the moment, I won’t have specific programmes as I am standing here. But I am sure outside of this House, we can get back to have the outline of what boxing is doing and is reporting to us. But as you know, they are experiencing a lot of challenges as a structure, which is what we are seeking to


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look at in terms of the governance of boxing in South Africa because if at leadership level, we have those challenges, then it means it impacts negatively on the very programmes that you hon member is asking about. Thank you.

Mr Z R XALISA: Thank you very much, House Chair. Mme Radebe, women, especially black women are the most oppressed in this country. They are emotionally abused, physical abused and mentally abused. Many of the Ministers in your government have made speeches this month saying we must protect women. But what is the government doing? Caster Semenya is an example of successful black female athlete but she continues to be attacked by racist, colonial and patriarchal international sporting agencies and the media. So, I want to know what the government is doing to protect Caster Semenya from international sport agencies and media, who are attacking her and her body? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. Earlier on I articulated women and sport policy seeks to bring together all what is happening and look into how we can support and assist women as I have indicated


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earlier on. We agreed with your sentiment because this is what is happening because black women are in the majority of our South African population.

So, the oppression of women means it has a bigger impact when it comes to that class. We have taken it upon ourselves to make sure that what happens to Caster Semenya cannot be led to be Caster Semenya’s issue because it has impact in future for the rest of the participation.

So, the issue before the International Association of Athletics Federations, IAAF, as you would know, it is supported by us as government. That is why when it initially came up formally; we had to make sure that SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, its medical team as well as that of Athletic South Africa are made to come together and put together South Africa’s position to challenge that. The Athletic South Africa, had interaction with IAAF to communicate our view and they agreed to disagree that the matter should be taken the code of arbitration. It is before that code of arbitration and therefore, we have assembled a


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very powerful team that we think will come back with better results. Thank you very much.


Ms M R M MOTHAPHO: Chairperson and hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Service reports as follows. These are regulations made in terms of section 109(1)(c) of the Legal Practice Act of 2914, dated 22 August this year. The Minister tabled the regulations in terms of section 109(1)(c) of the Legal Practice Act, giving effects to

the recommendations of the national forum of the legal profession. The said regulations were referred to the committee for consideration and reporting. The Minister is required to, within six months after receiving recommendations from the national forum, make regulations by publication in the Gazette in order to give effect to these recommendations.


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In terms of section 109(1)(c), however, the regulations must be approved by Parliament before they are published in the Gazette. On 15 August this year, the committee was briefed and deliberated on the contents of the regulations and the committee adopted the regulations with the recommendation that the National Assembly resolve to approve them.

The Minister’s introductory letter to the regulations informed Parliament of the urgency of finalising these regulations for the new SA legal practice council to be established before 31 October this year, the date on which the National Forum on the Legal Profession will cease to exist as provided for in

section 96(4) of the Legal Practice Act. In context, the Legal Practice Act of 2014 recognises that fragmentation within the legal profession in many ways and is compounded further by desperate laws that apply in different parts of the country.
The profession has been slow to transform the demographics of the profession, for example, still do not reflect those of the country. Even broadly entry to the profession is a challenge for many aspirant practitioners especially those lacking


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resources at the start of their career. Restrictive and outdated prescripts create further hurdles.

Access by members of the public to legal services can be limited and is compounded by the cost of legal fees which can be exorbitant. The Act therefore, amongst others, provides for a legislative framework for the transformation and restructuring of the legal profession establishing a South African legal practice council as well as provincial councils to regulate the affairs of the legal practitioners and set norms and standards. I therefore, on behalf of the portfolio committee, present this report for adoption by the hon House. I thank you.

There was no debate.

Mr F BHENGU: Chairperson, I move:

That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of Vote


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Adv G BREYTENBACH: Chairperson, these regulations, in terms of the Legal Practice Act, are intended to give effect to the recommendations of the National Forum on the Legal Profession. Section 97(1) of the Legal Practice Act, requires the National Forum on the Legal Profession to make recommendations to the Minister on several matters. The Minister, after receiving the recommendations, is required to make regulations in consultation with the national forum in order to give effect to its recommendations. The majority of the members of the portfolio committee on 22 August, adopted the perhaps attributively, are recommending that the National Assembly approve the regulations.

The DA opposes the recommendations. The reasons for the opposition of the approval of the regulations are that they effectively implement a quota system for the composition of the council. The recommendations set out that the council should comprise of follows: in respect of attorneys, four black women, three black men, one white woman and two white men – which is a 70-30 race ratio and a 50-50 gender ratio. In respect of advocates: two black women, two black men, one white woman and one white man – which is a 67-33 race ratio


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and 50-50 gender ratio. Gauteng has a slight deviation to accommodate their greater numbers.

The implementation of the quota system for the council seriously undermines the independence of the professions and the individuals involved. Such a system is demeaning with regard to the individual professionals involved suggesting that there are not equal role-players in all respects, and that they need a cushioning effect of the quota system in order to regulate the run profession.

We hold the view that these regulations therefore contravenes the equality clause as contained in the Bill of Rights and the quota system cannot be justified in terms of the limitations clause in the Bill of Rights. For the simple reason that the positions in the council are not positions of employment, considerations of employment equity are therefore not applicable to the composition of the council. Transformation of the leadership of the legal profession is advanced enormously without any quota system in place, and cannot even necessitate established strict racial and racial quota systems


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reminiscent of apartheid. The DA cannot support the blatant implementation of the quota system. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Chairperson, the EFF generally support the recommendations made by the National Forum on the Legal Profession and the regulations that ensued. We are particularly happy with the transformative legislation changes brought about by the Legal Practice Act, with specific references to visible transformation of the legal profession.

The recommendations of the National Forum on the Legal Profession take this need to a new tangible level. The proposal that the new SA Legal Practice Council must be constituted in a manner that reflects national demographic is a bold recommendation worthy of our support. This bold recommendation ought to be taken up by the different spheres of government to and ensure that all legal contracts given by the state due reflect these national demographics.

We cannot continue to have the government which has predominately white lawyers. The only weakness in the recommendation is the lack of consensus in the training


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requirements for candidate attorneys and pupils. This is the most exploitative stage in the legal profession. Candidate attorneys are paid peanuts by law firms. We would have liked to see at least a minimum wage payable to both candidates - attorneys and pupils - to ensure at least that they can sustain themselves while training to be fully admitted as attorneys and advocates.

Despite our reservation on the matter on training, we support the regulations. Thank you, Chairperson.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, I am delivering this declaration on behalf of my colleague, hon Inkosi E M Buthelezi who is a member of this committee. At the outset, let me state that the IFP supports this report. We support the critical role that the national forum provides in the transformation and the restructuring of the legal profession that is reflective of the diversity and demographics of the country as so well established and set out in the Legal Practice Act. Justice must be accessible to all South Africans and legal training, article and pupilage just as accessible to all of our aspiring lawyers and advocates.


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There are many challenges that must be faced and navigated by the Minister of Justice as he grapples with transformation and in respect of the forum and soon to be instituted council that will play a vital role and necessary check and balances.

The IFP supports the regulations giving effect to the recommendations of the National Forum on the Legal Profession tabled in terms of section 109(1)(c) of the Legal Practice Act of 2014. I thank you.

Mr M S A MAILA: House Chair, the ANC rises in support of the regulations drafted in line with section 109(1)(a) of the Legal Practice Act, Act 28 of 2004. The Legal Practice Act seeks to provide the legislative framework for the transformation and restructuring of the legal profession that embraces the values underpinned in the Constitution, and to ensure that the rule of law is upheld. The Act seeks to broaden access to justice.

Transformation of the legal profession is a prerequisite for the establishment of a society based on social justice, human rights and the rule of law. The Legal Practice Act is a


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reflection of the ANC’s commitment to the transformation of the legal profession and the judiciary in line with the Constitution. The Act gives the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, and the unified legal profession the authority to drive the transformation of the legal profession, which is a prerequisite for the transformation of the judiciary itself.

Fragmentation of the legal profession between attorneys and advocates and their regulatory bodies is not only costly and burdensome, but it also hampers enhanced access to justice; hence the need for a more uniform approach. Taking cognisance of this, the Act establishes one national regulatory body for all legal practitioners, i.e. both attorneys and advocates.
Section 72 of the Legal Practice Act provides that, when constituting the council, the racial and gender composition of South Africa must be taken into account. It is surprising why the DA objects to this racial composition.

The DA must remember that the recommended composition is a compromise that was reached between the 21-member forum representing a variety of different constituents. The members


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of the forum, who represent different sectors and bodies, went to their constituents and came back with recommendations based on the need to unify the legal profession and to ensure a regulatory body that is representative of all legal practitioners, both black and white. The recommended composition is a compromise that has been reached for the benefit of the entire profession. It is quite surprising why the DA continues to object on the basis of race. They ignore the reality that, if the legal profession is not representative, then it can never be transformed.

Currently, of the 26 700 practising attorneys in our country,

15 000 are white and 11 000 are black. This means that 57% of the attorneys are white. Of the advocates’ profession, 1 834 are white and 1 249 are black. This means that over 59% of the advocates’ profession is white, yet the DA objects to this arrangement. The recommended composition of the nine provincial councils was a compromise. Initially, the composition of the provincial councils was supposed be based on the actual numbers of legal practitioners. But because there are less advocates than attorneys, it was decided to have a least two advocates, one black and one white to ensure


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that advocates are represented; and to also ensure that there is greater diversity in the profession. It is not surprising that the DA is objecting to this.

The DA is living with a cancer. The cancer in the DA is the dominance of the white caucus of the DA in the politics of the DA. [Interjections.] The white caucus of the DA does not have any issue to do with any people of colour. The person who has seen that this white dominance of the DA caucus is a cancer is the brave and unrelenting councillor Victor Manyathi. [Interjections.] Councillor Manyathi succinctly expressed how this dominance of the white caucus in the DA is a cancer to this country. [Interjections.] He expressed the unhappiness of the black councillors in the DA throughout the country.
Actually, councillor Manyathi should come to Parliament and address the black caucus of the DA. The DA is not good for the politics of this country and can never take this country forward. As a result, I would like to thank all those parties that supported these regulations. As the ANC, we support the Legal Practice Regulations.

Division demanded.


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The House divided.


The House adjourned at 18:24.



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