Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 23 Oct 2018
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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TUESDAY, 23 OCTOBER 2018
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 14:02.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment for silent prayers or meditation.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like you to join me in congratulating our Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises for being presented the 2018 Changemakers of the Year award, by Lead SA. This was in recognition of the work done by the committee to improve the lives of fellow South Africans. The committee felt I should congratulate them, but it’s like complimenting fish for swimming particularly well. [Laughter.] Congratulations, nevertheless. [Applause.]
NEW MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, H P GEYER
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(Announcement)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr G R Davis has been filled by the nomination of Mr H P Geyer, with effect from 16 October 2018. The hon member has made and subscribed to the oath of affirmation in our office. Welcome, hon member. [Applause.]
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - COMPETITION AMENDMENT BILL
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
COMPETITION AMENDMENT BILL
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(Second Reading Debate)
Ms E M COLEMAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to present before this House the Competition Amendment Bill for consideration and adoption, as recommended by Portfolio Committee on Economic Development.
As entailed in our report to the House, based on the review of the Competition Act, the department identified the following issues which needed to be addressed through amendments to the legislation: the impact of anticompetitive conduct on small and medium businesses, SMEs, and firms owned and controlled by black South Africans; economic concentration as a structural issue in the economy and its impact on SMMEs and firms owned and controlled by black South Africans; the powers to address the abuse of dominance by large companies, including reviewing the penalty regime; alignment of competition-related processes and decisions with other public policies, programmes and interests, including in respect of national security; and strengthening of the role of the competition authorities and the executive in certain competition issues.
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Following the tabling of this prioritised Bill in July, the committee worked around the clock to ensure that this important legislative instrument is processed in a way that is inclusive to all. Two briefings were received from the Minister in July and August, followed by a full month - instead of the minimum of 14 days recommended - of public calls to South Africans, far and wide, for comments on the Bill.
On 28 and 29 August, the committee hosted a number of stakeholders, from small businesses and labour to multinationals, representatives of big business, nongovernmental organisations, academia, and individuals. We were very happy with the responses and levels of interest shown by all these important stakeholders, and we can firmly state that their views made significant contributions to the thinking that subsequently went into the final product.
The committee went on to have lengthy deliberations on this prioritised Bill and was granted permission to continue with its important work - at times, during the constituency period.
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At all times, the absolute majority of committee members were in attendance and committed themselves to the process.
The Bill we present to hon members will introduce key improvements to four major areas of the Act: firstly, prohibited practices; secondly, the structure of markets; thirdly, measures and acquisitions; and lastly, institutional improvements. Under prohibited practices, the Bill proposes a number of key changes. I will highlight a few which were widely supported by the stakeholders and strengthened by discussions in the committee.
Firstly, the Bill introduces a new test for excessive pricing, which empowers authorities to look at the profits firms are earning, and whether they have benefited, historically, from any state support.
Secondly, the Bill introduces into law the concept of unfair pricing and other trading conditions when dealing with suppliers. It also introduces an anti-avoidance clause for big businesses that try to avoid dealing with SMEs and black-owned businesses, in order to avoid the operations of this section.
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Thirdly, it introduces a new test for price discrimination against SME and black-owned firms and limits the defences that dominant firms have when using price discrimination against these businesses.
Fourthly, it provides detailed provisions on a number of prohibited acts, including excessive prices, predatory pricing, margin squeeze, buyer-power abuse, and price discrimination.
Fifthly, the Bill, as introduced by the department, calls for guidelines to be published by the Competition Commission in order to provide detailed guidance to firms in the market.
However, following public consultation and a review of case law, the portfolio committee decided that regulations issued by the Minister responsible for the Act would be more appropriate than guidelines. The Constitutional Court judgment in Marshall and Others v Commission for the South Africa Revenue Service, (CCT208/17) [2018] ZACC 11 had particular relevance, where the court expressed a cautionary dicta that a litigating or prosecuting entity should not have powers to set
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out the reasonable meaning to be given to a statutory provision.
The portfolio committee therefore took account of this and the well-established role of regulations in South African law.
Many other pieces of legislation provide for subordinate legislation in the form of regulations. Section 78 of the Competition Act already provides for the Minister to make regulations that are required to give effect to the purposes of the Act. The committee therefore drafted amendments to specify the types of regulations to be made by the Minister, dealing, for example, with the factors and benchmarks applicable to the determination of excessive prices in section 8.
Looking elsewhere, in the European Union, regulations are issued on matters such as the penalty regime and block exemptions. I also note that the committee was advised that, during the Nedlac discussions, both the organised business community, through Business Unity South Africa, Busa, and the labour movement, were flexible about using regulations instead of guidelines.
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The use of regulations issued by the Minister responsible for the Act is appropriate, considering that the Minister plays no role as a litigant in the relevant sections of the Act. I further note that these regulations are carefully constrained by the legislative guidance set out in the Bill, including a requirement for consultation with the commission and the public before regulations are issued.
Fifthly, the Bill introduces improved procedures and new grounds for the commission to exempt collaboration between firms if this collaboration leads to greater employment and industrial expansion, or promotes the entry, participation or expansion of SMEs and black-owned firms in the sector.
Finally, under prohibited practices, the Bill has provided for increased penalties for firms contravening the Act, by removing the yellow card for certain offences, increasing the penalty for repeat offenders, and extending the penalty to controlling firms where they knew or ought to have known about the contravention. These controlling firms will also now be jointly and severally liable for penalties. These provisions
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are necessary to send a clear message to large firms that abuses of market dominance will not be tolerated.
Under the structure of markets, the Bill has expanded the market enquiry provisions to provide explicit powers to the commission to investigate markets where market structures, like economic concentration, lead to negative economic outcomes, and to order remedies to be put in place by the firms concerned.
Under institutional improvements, there are a number of changes. These include provisions for greater use and allocation of capacity in both the commission and the tribunal, and clarification of the rights of the executive and other regulators to confidential information. These provisions were, again, welcomed during the public consultations.
I wish to thank and acknowledge the following for their individual and collective efforts towards the important work done over the past few months, culminating in this amending Bill, as presented to the House: the Ministry, under the leadership of Mr Ebrahim Patel, for their solid leadership and
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their unwavering commitment to the cause; members of the portfolio committee who put in the extra hours, including during the constituency period, to work through this crucial instrument that seeks to transform the lives of our people; the Ministry’s parliamentary staff and advisers, the state law advisers, and our own support staff, who have been with us throughout the process and supported our work ever so competently; the leadership of our competition authorities and their respective teams, without whose efforts, albeit under challenging conditions, the need for the amendments would not have come to light; the many stakeholders, in the form of organisations and individuals, who contributed to the making of this piece through the public participation process.
The Bill represents an important and necessary tool to drive economic transformation and inclusion in our economy. We believe that it will go a long way in the quest for the betterment of the lives of our people. I urge the House to support the Bill. I thank you.
Dr M J CARDO: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Competition Amendment Bill is a flawed Bill, emanating from a flawed process that
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will empower a flawed institution - the Competition Commission
— to ride roughshod over the economy. The ANC is going to beat the same drum over and over again today. They are going to say that this Bill will transform the economy, make it more inclusive and help our people. It will do nothing of the sort.
Making the economy more inclusive isn’t about using a competition regulator to create a new market structure. Economic inclusion is about broadening the skills base. It's about radically transforming our labour laws to create jobs. It’s about improving access to capital and credit for unbanked entrepreneurs. It’s about cutting red tape for owners of
small- and medium-sized businesses, and paying them on time.
The Competition Amendment Bill puts too great a burden on the competition authorities to solve South Africa’s economic problems. It gives them too much power. And the Bill codifies a trend of ministerial interventionism that will undermine the regulator’s independence.
The following are the Bill’s most serious defects. Firstly, section 18A enables the President to appoint a committee with
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the power to decide whether an acquisition by a foreign acquiring firm is in the interests of national security. This should have been the subject of stand-alone legislation on foreign investment, not grafted onto the Competition Act as a stopgap measure. As it is, “national security” is badly and broadly defined. There is a new, onerous, murky process for mergers involving foreign firms that is likely to have a chilling effect on large transactions. It will create uncertainty and disincentivise foreign investment at the very time that President Ramaphosa has embarked on a $100 billion investment drive.
Secondly, the abuse of dominance provisions could disincentivise medium-sized businesses from growing their market share. The ill-conceived precepts on buyer power could result in upward pressure on consumer pricing. Coupled with the muddled definition of price discrimination and reverse onus provisions in section 9(3), they could have the unintended consequence of discouraging dominant firms from doing business with small- and medium-sized enterprises.
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Thirdly, the new merger control provisions institutionalise a power grab by the Minister, who can now participate in any merger proceedings before the competition authorities on public interest grounds. The Minister will gain access to confidential company information. For years, the current Minister has been using his powers of intervention to extract rent from large firms — acting as a sort of glorified corporate social responsibility officer and undermining the competition authority’s autonomy in the process. Now, even smaller firms will be in the firing line.
Fourthly, the new market enquiry provisions effectively turn the Competition Commission into the Minister's research department, by enabling the Minister to require the commission to conduct such enquiries. The commission now has wide-ranging and drastic powers to remedy structural features believed adversely to affect competition in a market. These include the power to issue binding orders. The effect of these changes will be to turn market enquiries into a costly, punitive, hydra-headed monster.
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Fifthly, the removal of a “yellow card” for contraventions of the Act that aren’t cut and dried and the introduction of a “red card” for both outright and potential violations will make it difficult for companies to monitor compliance. This may stifle dynamic competition by efficient large firms.
In summation, the Competition Amendment Bill is bad for the economy. It will undermine growth and jobs. It will introduce regulatory uncertainty, increase the cost of doing business and deter foreign investment. This Bill is the product of a flawed process. It has been rammed through Parliament with all the finesse of security officers in white shirts exiting this Chamber. At every turn in the concertinaed legislative process, ANC MPs have behaved like supine, executive-minded lapdogs on a short ministerial leash. When I tried to engage the Minister on the substance of the Bill, the committee chair
— three-quarters lapdog, one-quarter Rottweiler — prevented me from asking questions.
In short, the members to my right have jollied this Bill along without any serious attempt to interrogate it. Instead, they have lifted their paws, wagged their tails and effectively
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urinated on Parliament in order to ingratiate themselves with the executive. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member? [Interjections.] Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, Rule 84 disallows all of us from calling other people by anything that resembles dogs, particularly members of this House. There are no Rottweilers here. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That point of order is sustained. Hon member, do withdraw.
Dr M J CARDO: Hon Deputy Speaker, both the lapdog and Rottweiler are figurative terms. [Interjections.]
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that Rule has been previously looked at and had you in mind in what you are saying right now.
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, do so, hon member.
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, the House allows for freedom of speech and members are allowed to exercise freedom of speech. [Interjections.] It’s a figure of speech that the hon Cardo used. He wasn’t insulting any individual; he was talking generally about laptops and Rottweilers. [Interjections.] And I would put it to you that it’s parliamentary.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.
Mr M WATERS: It’s part of the robust debate in this House, or should be at least.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, it is not. It is offensive. The Rules determine so. Hon member, you will withdraw that. [Interjections.] Withdraw, hon member.
Dr M J CARDO: Deputy Speaker, I withdraw. I think the majority Chief Whip’s bark is worse than his bite. [Interjections.] We know this because on 15 October ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member, when you withdraw you do so unconditionally. Any sniping that you do from that podium is out of order. [Interjections.]
Dr M J CARDO: We know this because on 15 October ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you can’t ignore me. You withdraw unconditionally.
Dr M J CARDO: I have withdrawn, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.] We know this because on 15 October the parliamentary councillor to the Deputy President wrote to the Speaker instructing her to prioritise ...
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Ms L M MASEKO: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
Ms L M MASEKO: The hon member still has not unconditionally
... He has not withdrawn fully. He must withdraw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please proceed. [Interjections.] No, I have taken a position to proceed. [Interjections.]
Dr M J CARDO: On 15 October the parliamentary councillor to the Deputy President ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Hon members, hon Minister, order! Order! There is only one presiding officer here right now. Proceed, hon member.
Dr M J CARDO: On 15 October the parliamentary councillor to the Deputy President wrote to the Speaker instructing her to prioritise and finalise 15 Bills before the end of the year, one of them was the Competition Amendment Bill. And exactly
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one week later, here we are. The ANC members have dutifully obliged.
Finally, we should be wary of giving all manner of new powers to the Competition Commission, a body whose integrity is in question. The Minister prefers to adopt a “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil,” approach to the commission. He still has not responded to my request for an independent enquiry into allegations of corruption and maladministration at the regulator.
Yet we know that Anthony Ndzabandzaba, a former commission employee who now runs his own law firm, is at the centre of a patronage network at the commission, aided and abetted by the commissioner and the head of cartels. We know that his law firm, Ndzabandzaba Attorneys, has made a killing out of the commission over the past three and a half years. The firm has received R72 million in payments from the commission since January 2015, and was channelled 31 out of 44 cartel cases over a two-year period. Today, I can reveal that of the commission’s R40 million irregular expenditure in 2016-17, R13 million — or one third — made its way to Ndzabandzaba. In
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2017-18, of the commission’s R86 million irregular expenditure, over R29 million — again, one third — went to Ndzabandzaba.
We know that Mr Ndzabandzaba is a regular visitor to the commission’s offices. We know that his invoices are fast- tracked for payment. We know that he plays the starring role at dawn raids conducted by the commission. And we know that he is a very enthusiastic promoter of Century Technical Solutions, the forensics service provider that was on the receiving end of R15 million in irregular expenditure from the commission in 2017-18.
There is a rotten smell at the commission’s offices in Meintjies Street, and the Minister won’t make it go away by holding his nose. His priority should be to fix a flawed institution, not to act as the cheerleader of a flawed Bill. The Competition Amendment Bill will not help the 10 million South Africans who are locked out of the economy because of this government’s job-destroying policies, and for this reason the DA opposes it. [Applause.]
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Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker and Minister of Economic Development, at the beginning of September... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members!
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: I’ll be able to speak...[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members!
MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT: Pay back the money! Pay back the money! Pay back the money! [Singing.]
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: I don’t have a problem I can speak with them.
MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT: Pay back the money! Pay back the money! Pay back the money! Pay back the money! [Singing.]
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: They can do that, but I will be able to speak even if they do it.
Mr N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker!
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Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Sit down, commissars; we will be able to handle this, don’t worry.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members order, please!
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Don’t worry, we’ll handle this. I was given contacts to... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, proceed.
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: I was saying that at the beginning of September, the SA Reserve Bank gave an instruction to Discovery bank that it cannot launch because FirstRand holds 25% of it. What happened was that Discovery bank said let us dispose off that stake, and they sold it to a component of the Discovery Holdings Ltd, which is a company that owns Discovery bank. But if you check who are the owners of the Discovery Holdings Ltd? It is a company which owns Discovery medical aid schemes, Rand Merchant Group, Ramgro, Rand Merchant Investment, RMI, and Rand Merchant Bank Holdings Ltd, RMBH, who are the owners of Grindrod Bank and they are also the
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owners of FirstRand Bank, First National Bank, FNB, as well as Wesbank.
So, we have a situation where even if you have competition laws these huge holding companies have a way of moving their shareholdings inside their own corporations. What we have in South Africa is a form of capitalism that is concentrated in few hands. I’m going to illustrate that in terms of numbers now. [Interjections.] It’s concentrated in few hands and the common denominator in almost all these corporations is a company called Ramgro in terms of how they get to dominate. It is the monopolistic nature of South Africa’s capitalism. That is why the Oxfam research says that the richest four billionaires in South Africa have more wealth more than
26 million South Africans. This means that Johann Rupert, Jannie Mouton, Koos Bekker and Nicky Oppenheimer have more wealth than 26 million South Africans. And that is due to the monopolistic nature of the South Africa’s capitalistic economy.
What are the other sectors that are concentrated? We have four or five banks in South Africa that account for 90% of the
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market share. Despite that we have 60 registered banks in South Africa including mutual banks and VBS as part of that component. In terms of medical schemes we have three medical schemes that account for more that 90% of the market in South Africa. In the pharmaceutical space we have Aspen, Adcock and Ascendis that account for more than 90% of the market space. In the refinery sector we have Chevron, Engen, Sasol and Shell that account for almost 100% of the refinery space. In the retail chain space, we have Checkers, Pick ‘n Pay, Spar and Woolworths that account for more than 70% of the market share. In the paid television space we have one operator with a contracditory name that is called Multichoice. It’s multichoice, but it’s alone. It is a choice alone within itself.
We have high levels of economic concentration in South Africa. In the subfood sector of the production of chicken products or poultry products we have Astral and Rainbow Chicken Ltd who are the only producers of chicken. And in all their manifestations and practices they tend to exclude the emerging businesses that want to participate and compete with them.
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But what is the solution? Are competition laws the means to deal with monopolistic nature of the South Africa’s capitalism? I don’t think so! Perhaps as the ruling party you must look into what the Freedom Charter says. It says that the minerals within the soil, the mines and monopoly industries shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole. The founding manifesto of the EFF is that the banks, mines and other strategic sectors of the economy must be nationalised.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, on that note your time has expired. [Time expired.]
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: I think that there must be a thorough much more ideological discussion of monopolistic nature of the economy than just to look at superficial issues.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, your time has expired. I am going to stop you now. I am stopping you.
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: We’ll attend to this madness later on. We know how to deal with it. Thank you very much.
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Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Deputy Speaker, the main objectives of the amendments to this proposed legislation are to address the structural constraints on the South African economy.
One of the contentious points of the Bill is a new regime for the President to identify a list of national security interests and to establish a committee in order to assess whether an acquisition by a foreign firm will be adverse to national security.
In its current form, the Bill does not specifically list what constitutes a threat to national security. This decision is left to the presidential committee, something which can only greatly enhance the political manipulation in the decision- making process.
With Chinese deals facing increasing global scrutiny, the President of China, Xi Jinping, during his visit to South Africa a few weeks ago, argued for more open markets, closer collaboration and freer trade with China, but on the other hand, implemented draft rules in China that will mean a much
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broader range of investments by foreigners will fall under Chinese national security review.
Every country has its own White Paper on national security and investment, and rightfully so. This, when implemented, increases a government’s ability to block or amend foreign acquisition of sensitive assets in that country in the interests of its national security. Of course, South Africa requires the same, but the rules around this should be fair and transparent, and the process be run effectively and efficiently.
With unemployment in South Africa at a staggering 35%, and a R150 billion foreign investment target to meet, we need to increase the ease of conducting business in this country. How would a committee that’s given 60 days to make a decision before making a referral to the competition authorities assist with ease of conducting business? It will simply be adding to the already unrealistic delays, bureaucratic red tape and uncertainty that’s already frustrating prospective investors in South Africa.
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In conclusion, the IFP agrees that the South African economy requires a broader competition policy as part of its industrial policy, as well as a reduction in the barriers to entry for investors of all race groups, especially previously disenfranchised entrepreneurs. But this Bill will not do that. Thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, hon members, it cannot be that, 24 years into democracy, there are those of us who are still excluded from participating in the economy of the country. This government bears upon itself the responsibility to encourage economic growth, competition, and access to opportunities within the set legal prescripts. As a country, we cannot allow any form of monopolistic attitudes to permeate our economy and exclude others.
According to the department, there were issues that needed to be attended to through amendments, such as the anticompetitive conduct towards small and medium enterprises, SMEs, and firms owned and controlled by black South Africans, and economic concentration as a structural issue in the economy and its
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impact on SMEs and firms owned and controlled by black South Africans.
Collusions in purchases, sales or supply by big companies, banks, shops, etc, affect small businesses, especially those owned by black persons. This collusion is done by car dealers, [Inaudible.] by shops, to such an extent that black hawkers and black people who own shops and who usually buy in bulk ... now there is a tendency to inflate prices so that it becomes impossible for small shop-owners and those who sell or buy merchandise by the shelters to get into the market.
A need has therefore arisen to invoke the powers to address the abuse of dominance by large companies by reviewing the penalty regime, so that we deal with those who especially exclude from the economy those who have been historically disadvantaged.
Competition-related policies and processes have to be transparent. Policies have to be aligned with other interests and public policies and programmes.
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Issues of differential treatment, price collusion, reluctance to sell to or refusing to purchase from companies owned by previously disadvantaged companies or individuals, are not aligned. What is at stake in this regard are punitive measures that have to be taken as well as the introduction of systems that can encourage collaboration in a transparent manner.
Price discrimination is another form of a separationist system that was typical of the apartheid-era regime which permeated many areas of our life.
Therefore, the need to deal with collusion that is done by car dealers, supermarkets, banks, etc, that really impact negatively on the business of black people ...
The NFP will support that as long as it is done in a transparent manner. Thank you.
Adv A D ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, South Africa stands at the edge of an economic cliff. Yet, it is incredible to behold the ANC-led government, after they had dug the country into a
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hole, responding by digging even deeper. And so it is the case with this Bill.
Afrikaans:
Daar is verskeie probleme met die wetsontwerp waarvan die belangrikste sekerlik is dat verskeie onbedoelde gevolge daaruit kan voortspruit in ’n komplekse omgewing soos Suid- Afrika. Die opbreek en reorganisasie van besighede kan ongekende skade veroorsaak in ’n tyd waarin Suid-Afrika juis moet steun op sterk en groot besighede om die land ekonomies vorentoe te neem.
Dit lyk ook asof die wetsontwerp eerder daarop gerig is om die bestaande ekonomiese struktuur te wysig en herverdeel, eerder as om die ekonomie te groei. Suiwer herverdeling sonder groei is natuurlik onvolhoubaar.
English:
One of the most disconcerting aspects of this Bill is the intent to provide unprecedented powers to the President and the Minister to intervene in the market and to halt foreign investment at a time when we are actively courting foreign
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investors. In actual fact, the President of South Africa is saying that South Africa is open for business, but the ANC will decide if they like your money and, even if you are allowed to invest, the ANC may expropriate all your assets without compensation. [Interjections.]
Afrikaans:
Maar dis nie die einde nie. Hierdie wetsontwerp saamgelees met onteiening sonder vergoeding kan daartoe lei dat Suid-Afrika uit die African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa, met Amerika geskop word. Artikel 104 van die Agoa ooreenkoms stel dit duidelik dat regeringsinmenging in die mark nie geduld sal word nie. En as die President van die VSA begin kyk na Suid- Afrika en dit sien, dan is dit net ’n kwessie van tyd voordat ons weer moeilikheid het rondom die Agoa ooreenkoms.
English:
Clause 2(1) of the Bill states the following:
The main objective of these amendments is to address two persistent structural constraints on the South African economy, namely the high levels of economic concentration
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in the economy, and the skewed ownership profile of the economy.
Now, the main problem with government today is that it prescribes to society without holding itself to those rules, and harms society without itself having any skin in the game.
So, if the ANC is honest in its belief to change the high levels of concentration and skewed ownership profile, it must set the example first by unbundling those state-owned enterprises that are also dinosaurs, in the form of Eskom, South African Airways, SAA, the Airports Company of SA, Acsa, Transnet, the Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, and all the others that exist merely to loot and destroy value. They must be unbundled first, and then we can talk about the private sector.
Afrikaans:
Indien die ANC nie bereid is om dit te doen nie, sal ons nie die regering ernstig kan opneem oor die doelwitte van die wetsontwerp nie. Die beste wat die ANC kan doen is om by die
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ekonomiese pad te kom sodat die ekonomie spontaan kan groei tot voordeel van alle Suid-Afrikaners.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ON COMPETITION AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Ms A T MFULO: Deputy Speaker, hon members, today is a proud moment for small business as we amend the Competition Act, Act
89 of 1998, to place the promotion of small, medium and micro- sized enterprises, SMMEs, and economic inclusion at the heart of our law.
The competition authority made big strides in the past nine years since their oversight was transferred to the newly formed Ministry of Economic Development in 2010. The Ministry, in fact, pioneered a new approach which gave more prominence to employment, localisation and small business development.
Working closely with the Competition Commission and the Competition Tribunal, government reached settlements in a
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number of large measures that broke new ground in new competition law internationally. The Competition Commission and the Competition tribunal imposed condition during measures that protected more than 65 000 jobs over the last four years. The Ministry had to put in place commitments of more than
R10 billion by major firms for small business support or investment in new industrial capacity, 66 times more than the Economic Development Department’s own annual budget.
The competition authority has taken clear action to break up the cartels which have kept our people down for too long. In spite of this excellent effort, the legacy of our past continues to result in the exclusion of many South Africans from the economic opportunities to create their own wealth and improve the lives of their families. This loss to our economy and to our people should not be tolerated anymore. The Competition Amendment Bill — which we call on this House to pass here today — strengthens the powers of the authorities and the executives to deal with the abuse by dominant firms that leads to economic exclusion. The Amendment Bill will make it easier for the authorities to deal with price discrimination by large companies against small firms and
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black-owned firms. This is important if we are to create an economy with hundreds of thousands of new small businesses.
The Bill introduces the concept of unfair pricing and trading conditions by dominant firms in the market against their suppliers. This will be the first time that competition law will deal with abuse of power.
Hon members, a number of small businesses and other organisations gave evidence to this portfolio committee on the problems they face from the behaviour of the big players. The committee worked closely with the Ministry to find ways to further strengthen the law.
The Bill deals with commercial predators. These are the companies which lower their prices for a period to try and eliminate small competitors and once they have done so and no longer have a competitor, they increase their prices again so that they have a monopoly. The Freedom Charter requires us to act against monopolies. I want to congratulate the Minister and the department for submitting to Parliament a law that, in fact, will give regulators more power to combat monopolies and
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cartels. We in the ANC endorse this Bill and call all our people to support its implementation. I thank you.
MS D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, the need and imperative for competition legislation and effective structures to administer and give effect to such law, given our past that resulted in excessive concentrations of ownership and control of our economy and that resulted in anticompetitive trade practises and unjust restrictions on fuel and free participation in our country, is well understood. It will be supported by Cope if it is not in the hands of the biggest abuser of power, the ANC.
This will ensure a more open and ample opportunity-based economy with a more racially diverse ownership and will ensure a more effective and efficient economy. The Amendment Bill proposes to increase the power and the authority of the competition authority to, amongst others measures, address concentration that excludes small and black people to enforce this investment.
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Cope is concerned about the extent of this new power proposed to be invested in our competition authorities, apart from the unintended consequences that it may have on investor confidence especially at a time when we need to foster confidence and economic growth. We are mindful of a recently expressed view of the National Development Plan Commission
Mr S A TLEANE: Deputy Speaker, before I go into my speech, let me quickly get rid of these few items. Hon Cardo, no amount of offensive language will help you to take our country back to the days of Hendrik Verwoerd and black oppression. We are in the process of rebuilding our country, empowering our people and making sure that participating more in the mainstream economy of our country is part of that process. You better get used to it. You say that the Minister should not have a role to play in the mergers of this country. You must remember that the Minister represents the interests of the majority of our people. He has a role to play in ensuring that their interests are protected. If you think that there is patronage that is happening at the Competition Commission, you know what to do. Go and report the matter at the nearest police station.
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Hon Alberts, expropriation of land without compensation is going to happen, and you better get used to it.
Hon members, for how long must the economic door remain half- opened to small and medium businesses in our country? For how long must wealth ownership be concentrated in the hands of few dominant firms at the expense of historically disadvantaged persons? “Sikhathele manje!” [We are fed up now]. Studies show that some monopolies have market shares of nearly 100%, thereby controlling parts of the supply chain for important goods or services in our country. Even international commentators on South Africa recognise the size of this problem.
According to the World Bank, the top 10% of wealthy South Africans still own 71% of total household wealth while the poorest 50% owns only 4,2%. This level of inequality can no longer be tolerated. The Competition Amendment Bill therefore helps to open the economy to small and medium enterprises and black South Africans. It introduces into our law for the very first time tools to deal with economic concentration in a real and meaningful way. The Bill provides that the Competition
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Commission can conduct a market inquiry into any sector and at any time to evaluate whether the structure of a market and levels of ownership concentration leads to negative outcomes such as lower levels of participation by small and medium businesses and black-owned firms, lower levels of employment and higher prices for consumers or customers. The market inquiry will have binding powers to require firms to remedy such negative effects and it can recommend that a firm be broken up if there is no other remedy available to address the problem.
This beautiful piece of legislation introduces the concept of worker ownership in the economy. This is a vital part of what we need as the new South African economic model where workers who create the wealth are also co-owners of the factories, mines and shops.
This speaks powerfully to the vision of the Freedom Charter that the people shall share in the country’s wealth. The Bill also addresses economic concentration caused by mergers. It furthermore enables the executive to prohibit a merger on national security grounds where a foreign firm wants to buy a
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South African firm. The Bill provides for a committee established by the President to consider such mergers on clearly set out national security criteria and we found overwhelming support for the concept in the public hearings, including from organised business. Even the International Bar Association, the Helen Suzman Foundation, the Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, small businesses, Business Unity South Africa, Busa, and others acknowledged the right of the national executive to regulate mergers involving foreign acquiring firms where national security issues are involved.
Our national security and sovereignty are not for sale. Any political party that fights and opposes this Bill will be perceived as still fantasising about taking the country back to the times of Hendrik Verwoerd and black oppression. We shall never allow this to happen. The ANC-led government is committed to the elimination of poverty, unemployment and inequality in our country, and this Bill contributes massively in this respect. The provision of bigger opportunities for the participation of more blacks in the mainstream economy of our country serves the purpose of strengthening our fledgling democracy and of enhancing social cohesion.
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We commend the Ministry for the protracted year-long consultative process with all stakeholders which included crucial engagements by labour, organised business and civil society in the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, chamber on the Bill. Equally, we must commend the many important stakeholders who vigorously participated in the public hearings convened by the Portfolio Committee on Economic Development. Therefore, we can safely declare that the Bill goes a long way in accommodating key concerns and views raised by the majority of stakeholders.
At the conclusion of the Nedlac engagement on the Bill, a report was released, and I hereby quote a line which says:
This is a package of provisions which constitutes an appropriate and effective balance of the interests of all the social partners and the policy imperatives of government.
“Wie se wat, wat?” [Who says what, what?]. The ANC supports this Bill and I invite all members of this House to do likewise. I thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
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The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, fellow South Africans, 20 years ago on Tuesday,
20 October 1998, President Nelson Mandela signed the Competition Act into law, so starting an important journey to build a strong, competitive and inclusive economy. Though we have made great strides into the democracy, Madiba’s vision of of an inclusive economy has not been fully achieved. We need to increase the rate of economic growth, facilitate more job creation and provide more opportunities for young people, for black industrialist, for new entrants, for women and for rural and township entrepreneurs.
If we are to build and grow the economy much faster, bring in fresh investments, and support small business development, we must introduce measures to deal with the structural problems of the economy. These structural problems include the high level of economic concentration that acts as a restriction to new entrants, new investments, and new firms.
The World Bank issued a report this year, entitled, “An Incomplete Transition: Overcoming the Legacy of Exclusion in South Africa”. This report says:
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Competition issues in South Africa are reflected in the large dispersion of rates of return to capital across sectors, with some exhibiting very high mark-ups.
Substantial market power in this sector is likely to result in suppressed demand for capital and labour, low total factor productivity ... and reduced price- competitiveness for sectors that use the inflated goods and services produced in concentrated sectors.
And then it continues with one important sentence, it says:
Mark-ups above normal profits ... are estimated to amount close to 10% of GDP in South Africa.
Well, that sets out the problem. The Bill tabled today introduces practical steps to deal with this reality. The process of the Bill, hon Carter, has been inclusive and extensive and I think that you will find that the record shows that it’s not been slow process at all. We had more than 90 public submissions from organisations and individuals to the Ministry and to Parliament, as hon Coleman noted.
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The National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, considered the Bill over a seven-month period and made a number of important suggested changes. At the end of it — as the hon Tleane quoted — it said:
This Bill is an appropriate and effective balance of the interests of all the social partners and the policy imperatives of government.
The committee itself held public hearings, with 20 organisations or small businesses taking part. The committee enriched the Bill in a number of ways, in fact, the committee itself made changes to 14 sections of the Bill and 28 sub- sections of the Bill. It’s quite a thorough process, one in which Parliament took its responsibilities very seriously.
What can society expect from the amendments? I want to highlight eight benefits from the Bill. Firstly, small and medium businesses are given a special status. Actions by dominant firms will now be subject to more scrutiny when their actions — including price discrimination — unfairly damage small businesses.
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Secondly, consumers and customers will have better protection against excessive prices by dominant firms, with the law now setting out clear criteria that the courts can apply to determine if a price is excessive.
Thirdly, small suppliers will now have remedies against abuse of buyer power by dominant firms when unfair prices and trading conditions are imposed on them, as hon Mfulo said.
Fourthly, worker ownership of shares in companies are promoted through criteria on expanded ownership during mergers.
Fifthly, citizens will know that government will protect the country’s national security interests when a foreign firm wants to acquire a South African firm in a security-sensitive area set out in the law.
Hon Esterhuizen, you raised concerns about criteria that are not fully spelled out. In fact, the law sets out criteria that draws on similar legal provisions in the United States, Canada, Australia and the European Union. In fact, these
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criteria do not go anywhere as far as those applicable to other jurisdictions, like China.
In the sixth instance, large businesses will know that the penalties are much tougher for breaking the law, but they will also have a more flexible regime in place to get exemptions to enable them to collaborate with each other and help expand South African production, grow our export markets, develop new technologies or expand jobs.
In the seventh instance, new investors will know that the market is open, that new players can come in, that the cartels and monopolies are being dismantled, and that economic concentration is being addressed so that we become more innovation-driven, more dynamic and more inclusive, giving effect to the vision of the Freedom Charter.
Finally, users of the competition institutions will know that the systems will be more efficient, with additional competition tribunal members to reduce the caseload and speed up cases, and with timeframes for market inquiries to be completed and new market impact studies conducted.
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Hon members, to realise the full potential of the Bill, for us as South Africans to build that more inclusive economy, to help create new investment opportunities, and to complement what we do in other areas, we need to take a number of supportive steps. These include other measures to promote small and medium enterprises and youth entrepreneurs with more capital, more know-how, licensing and less red tape. It requires additional financial and human resources to the competition authorities and building on the strengths of our institutions.
I have taken note of concerns expressed by some members regarding the Competition Commission. These are being addressed. It’s the same commission that has won global awards for the extent to which its practices have become best practice across the world when dealing with collusion and with corporate misbehaviour. [Applause.]
I will be appointing expert panels to look at the institutional issues related to the competition authorities so as to support and strengthen capacity, governance and readiness to implement. These panels will draft regulations
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that will be the subject of consultation with the public and the Competition Commission, to give effect to the Bill once it is passed by Parliament.
Finally, hon members, this Bill is transformative in character. My thanks therefore goes to the chairperson and members of the portfolio committee, the social partners from the business communities and organised labour, those who made public submissions and the regulators for their hard work in finalising the provisions of this Bill. I look forward to the next step of working with Parliament in the implementation of this Bill once passed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
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Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
CONSIDERATION OF PLANT IMPROVEMENT BILL AND OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES THEREON
Ms M R SEMENYA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members of this good House, plant improvement is an important element of agricultural production in South Africa and other countries across the world, involving the development of improved varieties by means of breading and selections. Growing human population, climate change and disease pressure are important drivers to develop improved plant varieties.
In South Africa, plant improvement is regulated by the Plant Improvement Act of 1976. Although the regulatory role of the Act in the agricultural industry remains critical, its review indicates that the scope and provision of the Act are not entirely aligned to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and other related legislation in the agricultural
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sector. It is for this reason that the Plant Improvement Bill was proposed to replace the current Act of 1976.
The aim of the Plant Improvement Bill is to enhance sustainable crop production in South Africa by regulating the quality of plants and seeds, which will contribute to food security and the overall economy of South Africa.
After extensive consultation and consideration of the subject matter of the Plant Improvement Bill, B8 of 2015, as referred to, the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fishery reported to the National Assembly on the Bill with amendment in November 2016. The Bill was since referred to the National Council of Provinces for further processing.
Having considered the proposed amendment by the National Council of Provinces to the Plant Improvement Bill referred to it on 13 June 2018, the committee reports to the National Assembly that it agrees with the NCOP proposed amendment. I thank you.
Declarations of Vote:
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Afrikaans:
Mnr H C C KRUGER: Agb Adjunkspeaker, die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies het die kleinskaalse kwekersgemeenskap in hierdie twee wetsontwerpe lelik gefaal. Die gedagte was dat die Raad die twee wetgewings na die komitee terug sou stuur met ’n string voorstelle vanaf die gemeenskap. Ongelukkig het die Raad dit goedgedink om slegs twee geringe voorstelle aan die komitee te maak. Uit die aard van die saak is dit onaanvaarbaar vir die DA dat die gemeenskap op hierdie manier slinks gefnuik word.
kleinskaalse kwekers is vir baie jare aan die boelietaktiek van sommige kommersiële kwekers blootgetel en kon nooit op die beskerming van die staat staatmaak nie. Hierdie wysiging was ’n guldige geleentheid om die saak reg te stel. Ongelukkig moet kleinondernemings met die krummels in die bedryf tevrede bly.
Die beskerming van die regte van opkomende entrepreneurs sal altyd hoog op die prioriteitslys van die DA wees. Die DA wil die volgende op rekord plaas.
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Eerstens, die proses wat in die verkose komitee in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies na samespreking met die gemeenskap plaasgevind het, was ’n deurmekaarspul. Sommige ANC-kollegas het nie saamgestem nie en dit het ’n Babelse verwarring veroorsaak.
Tweedens, die parlimentêre regsspan moes ingryp om te keer dat onwettige veranderings voorgestel word.
Derdens, die wetsontwerp sal ’n negatiewe inpak op die biodiversiteit van Suid-Afrikaanse inheemse plantegroei hê.
Vierdens, die gemeenskap se voorstelle is nie inaggeneem nie. Dit is duidelik wanneer daar na die verslag gekyk word dat die verkose komitee se voorstelle geen wesenlike verskil in die bedryf sal aanbring nie.
In 2011 is ’n opname in Suid-Afrika gemaak en die bevinding was dat 85% van die voedselsaadregte aan 10% van die kwekers behoort het. Byna 50% van hierdie kwekers is instansies buite die grense van Suid-Afrika. Dit is algemene kennis dat die groot instansies plantmateriaal met die beste gene in Suid-
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Afrika kom oes, veredel en dan ten duurste terug aan Suid- Afrikaners verkoop. Die Barberton daisy is ’n goeie voorbeeld hiervan. In 2018 het hierdie statistiek min verander en is dit net nog ’n mislukte veer in die hoed van die ANC-regering.
Alhoewel daar jaarliks R15 miljard deur hierdie regering aan kleinsake en kleinskaalboere bestee word is 88% van hierdie entrepreneurs gedoem tot mislukking. Na die 2019 verkieising sal die nuwe DA-regering na die behoeftes van kleinsakeondernemings omsien. Ons sal seker maak dat kleinsakeondernemings in elke sektor geleenthede gegun word om suksesvol te wees, om sodoende werksgeleenthede vir bykans
10 miljoen werklose burgers te skep.
In hierdie wetsontwerp is die poging om kleinskaalse kwekery te bemoedig om deel te word van die bedryf duidelik beperk. Die kleinskaalse kwekers het verseker ander behoeftes en dit het tyd geword dat die politieke retoriek en praatjies van die ANC omgesit word in praktiese oplossings, sodat elke Suid- Afrikaner deel van die ekonomie kan word, om sodoende ’n waardiger lewe te lei.
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In ’n DA-regering, waar die waardes van vryheid, geleenthede, regverdigheid en diversiteit geimplimenteer sal word, sal niemand agtergelaat word nie. Een Suid-Afrika vir almal!
Dankie.
English:
Mr N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, when the Plant Breeders’ Rights Bill and the Plant Improvement Bill were sent to the NCOP, it was an opportunity to fundamentally change a Bill that does not serve the interests of South Africa or her people.
However, the changes suggested by the NCOP and accepted by the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry do no in any way change the substance of these two Bills. For this reason, we reject both the Plant Breeders’ Rights Bill and the Plant Improvement Bill, as we did when the Bills were first debated in the National Assembly.
These two pieces of legislation are problematic for a number of reasons. Firstly, they perpetuate the colonial practice of not recognising indigenous knowledge systems relating to plant breeding. It excludes indigenous people who have worked with the plants of this country for centuries but who simply have
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not registered rights over the plants they work with because they saw no need, were not informed, or did not have the means to do so. Secondly, the Plant Breeders’ Bill seeks to make infringements of a plant breeder’s rights liable to criminal prosecution instead of enforcement being done through civil procedures. Thirdly, the Plant Improvement Bill does not take into account seed systems that support smallholder farmers and ecological farming and will only further entrench inequality within the agricultural sector. Fourthly, the Plant Improvement Bill does not recognise farmer-managed seed systems, limiting their ability to reuse, exchange and sell seeds that they farmed themselves. As it stands, a handful of companies control the entire seed and pesticide industry, and this Bill only empowers these companies and creates the perfect conditions for them to further expand their monopolies.
The opportunity to make substantive changes to both the Plant Breeders’ Rights Bill and Plant Improvement Bill was wasted. Once exposed, the ANC will be seen as a party that once again only serves the interests of capital. Those who feed you, control you. By further empowering seed monopolies, we are
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putting our entire food value chain in the hands of people whose only interest is capital. This compromises our food security and nutritional security and the future of this country.
We therefore reject this report. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before I call the next member, join us in welcoming the students and lecturers from the Boland Technical and Vocational Education and Training College. Welcome. [Applause.] Thank you for joining us.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Deputy Speaker, following on from the debates we had on these Bills in late 2016, the IFP maintains its concern that we are currently witnessing a monopolisation and international trend in which seed companies are being purchased by multinational pesticide and biopharmaceutical companies. It is common knowledge that these so-called for- profit companies are genetically engineering and developing seeds that produce optimum yield only when used in conjunction with their own particular brand of herbicide or pesticide.
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The long-term health and environmental effects of such genetically modified seeds, herbicides and pesticides remain a mystery. One would like to think that any responsible government would exercise precaution in such instances, but this appears not to be so in South Africa’s case where we continue to allow over 80% of our population to consume genetically modified maize as a staple food that has been grown in fields sprayed with the super weed killer glyphosate, an example of this being Monsanto’s Roundup product, even despite such substances being labelled by the World Health Organisation as a probable carcinogen.
In a recent landmark judgment in the United States of America, in August 2018, a court ordered biochemical giant Monsanto, which is a unit of BioAg, liable in a lawsuit filed by a man who alleged the company’s glyphosate-based weed killers, including Roundup, caused his cancer and ordered the company the pay US $289 million in compensatory punitive damages. He was a school groundkeeper who had been applying the weed killer up to 30 times per year at the school where he was employed.
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Seeds, pesticides and herbicides must be thoroughly tested and long-term independent studies conducted before they are permitted to be used in South Africa. In 2016, the IFP raised the matter with the SA Human Rights Commission that has yet to make a finding. Why does it take such a long time? Surely, precaution dictates that, in the absence of science, such substances should not be permitted for use in South Africa.
Our people are not a science experiment. The IFP will continue with this position until the human and environmental safety of such products has been thoroughly and conclusively established.
Subject to the above concerns, the IFP continues to support the Bill. I thank you.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, the original reason for this Bill was to ensure constitutional compliance. That has been done to the extent that it could have been done.
Food security is key in our country, given that 13 million people in this country go hungry virtually on a daily basis. Besides the quantity, quality becomes very relevant and
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necessary, and this Bill seeks to enhance exactly that because it is no good to just produce quantities that are needed without enhancing or factoring in the quality elements to the food that you produce. This Bill will do exactly that, as it is, as well as at production level.
It is understood that the department does not have sufficient personnel to do inspection of food at retail level and so on. However, this Bill will make it possible for the food that is produced to be of high quality. Food production cannot continue to be an exclusive privilege of a few. More and more people need to be involved in the practice of producing food of quality. Perhaps people for many years have been producing food, but what you can also find from the soil is that it is necessary to factor in legislative factors to make sure that all of that is done in a manner that is constitutionally compliant.
So, at this point in time, the agricultural sector contributes a mere 2,4% to the GDP of our country. This would enable the sector to produce more so that this sector can make a greater contribution to the GDP of our beloved country. Given the
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above and taking into account also the fact that we need more people to produce more quality food, the UDM supports the Bill.
Mr P D N MALOYI: Deputy Speaker, at the start, I must indicate that the ANC agrees with the amendments proposed by the NCOP.
Hon members will recall that this House debated extensively the Plant Improvement Bill. We agreed, as a House, and we referred this Bill to the NCOP. In its deliberations, the NCOP identified one aspect that needed to be corrected. I want to bring it to your attention. The NCOP requested the National Assembly to omit, on page eight and line 20 of the Bill, “and” and substitute “and” with “or”. That is the only change made by the NCOP. I am not sure what we are debating. I am not sure what we are debating. [Interjections.] What members are now trying to do is reopen a debate that took place a long time ago in the National Assembly.
What the DA is also trying to do is raise issues that were raised in the portfolio committee in the National Assembly but did not find its way into the Bill. Issues that were raised in
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this House but that could not find a way into the Bill – they must bring those issues through the backdoor. Now they are even questioning the processes followed by the NCOP. I am not sure whether this House wants to treat the NCOP as its stepchild and start a process of questioning the processes of that particular House. It is a House independent from this one. So, they have their own Rules. They have their own way of doing things.
Let’s allow the NCOP the time and space to do their work. If they agree with us here in the National Assembly in terms of the work we have done, we have no right to question how they have managed things. Therefore, the ANC agrees, and we don’t want to reopen a debate that was closed a long time ago. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Question put: That the Bill, as amended, be passed.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s settle down. Hon member, you can’t go out. Hey, these new members! Take your seat, hon member, please. Order! Hon members, order.
VOTING
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. The new Finance Minister has ... [Interjections.] ... can I continue. The Rules states that you have to vote from your seat, but the Finance Minister has just taken a seat and he hasn’t voted. [Interjections.] I know it has been some time since he has been away from this House. Could you just refresh his mind that he actually needs to vote from a seat during voting?
Motion agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, you may now leave. [Laughter.] No, he is not a member; he is not supposed to vote. So, don’t worry about him.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Deputy Speaker, is the Bill got to do with what the President announced about the tree that will help the DA members - the tree that he spoke of, from Limpopo?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no. Hon Chauke, no!
CONSIDERATION OF PLANT BREEDERS’ RIGHTS BILL AND OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES THEREON
Sepedi:
Moh M R SEMENYA: Motlatšamodulasetulo wa Ngwako, e re ke o dumediše gape, ke be ke re go wena ke re re le Komiti ya Temo, Dithokgwa le Dihlapi, re lebeletše diphetogo tšeo ba Lekgotla la Bosetšhaba la Diprofense ba ilego ba di akanya. Re di lebeletše; re dumelelana le tšona. Re kgopela Ntlo ye e dumelelane le tšeo di boletšwego ke Lekgotla la Bosetšhaba la Diprofense. Ke a leboga.
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English:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (ON HIS BEHALF Mr P D M
MALOYI): We move that the Bill be agreed to.
Question put: That the Bill, as amended, be passed.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Motion agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRADE AND INDUSTRY AND STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON REVIEW OF 2002 SOUTHERN AFRICAN CUSTOMS UNION (SACU) AGREEMENT
Ms J L FUBBS: Good afternoon hon Deputy Speaker. Because there were certain technical differences, I understand this is the
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Southern African Customs Union, SACU, Agreement. Is that correct?
An Hon Member: Yes.
Ms J L FUBBS: The SACU members gave a green light for transformation; members agreed to transform SACU into a development integration arrangement that promotes sustainable development of its economies. This is really quite a radical achievement because SACU was established during the colonial and apartheid arrangements and continues to be fined by a common tariff, external tariff and revenue sharing agreement.
They have now agreed that it is time to change, and consequently the six-point plan was adopted.
Key elements of the six point plan include regional industrial development, a review of the revenue formula, trade facilitation, establishment of SACU institutions, a unified engagement in trade negotiations and trade in SACU institutions.
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However, during implementation it became clear that the provisions of the agreement do not facilitate the achievement of the six-point plan. Members of this House, this affects South Africa, so we should be listening. The Standing Committee on Finance and the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry consider the update provided by the Minister of Trade and Industry and the Minister of Finance on the review of the 2002 SACU Agreement. We recommend that the House approves the resolution that advocates that the Department of Trade and Industry and National Treasury proceed with those engagements.
We want to emphasise the developmental approach, the architecture that needs to be changed and the need to preserve tariffs as an instrument for industrial development and ensure an efficient tariff setting mechanism that is responsive to the current global developments on trade, advocate for the review of the revenue sharing formula to make provision for the financing arrangements and promote the efficient cross- border movement for goods.
We also want to ensure that the position on tariffs is calibrated on the basis of discussions in the revenue sharing
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agreement. I would hope, hon House Chairperson, that members of this House also give this the green light. I thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We move that the report be adopted by this House. Thank you.
There was no debate.
Declaration(s) of Vote:
Mr D W MACPHERSON: I would like to make the hon Fubbs’ day and tell her that we will be giving it the green light too, while she is wearing blue. House Chairperson, the DA welcomes the long awaited customs union review. This is an issue that the DA and I personally have championed for the last four years and we are glad that it is finally coming to the fore.
For far too long, South Africa has continued to be at the wrong end of this agreement to our own financial cost. What is worse is that we have effectively funded our neighbours to use their shores as transhipment hubs for goods that arrive in South Africa duty-free through our Southern African Development Community, SADC, membership.
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In the end, this only has a negative effect on our local manufacturing sector. Our share of duties has dwindled every single year and yet we have sat on our hands and done very little to nothing to stop this, which is completely bizarre, considering we run the administration for the customs union forking out the costs of this until duties are collected and dispersed.
House Chairperson, we must have a customs union that recognises South Africa’s role and function in the region, one that is not used to our detriment but works for all citizens in the SACU block.
With respect to trade facilitation, it takes nearly 1000 pieces of paper and $130 for a truck to pass from Durban to Angola. It is simply impossible to facilitate the movement of goods through Africa when these barriers to entry exist and this is one of the very important issues that hope the new negotiations will consider. The DA welcomes the review and we will certainly be watching it as it continues. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, allow me to apologise, I thought my colleagues were coming before me.
The NFP welcomes the Report of the Department of Trade and Industry tabled here today. We acknowledge the review process in place to transform and implement a development integration approach.
We support the recommendation that both Ministers of Trade and Industry and Finance engaged the Southern African Customs Union, SACU, on development integration with industrial and infrastructure development.
We further support the recommendation to engage on finding more suitable decision-making mechanisms to deal with setting of tariffs. Further recommendations include preserving tariffs, a review of the revenue-sharing formula including but not limited to engagements on promoting efficient cross-border movement of goods, particularly agricultural products.
To a very large extend, the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region has benefitted at our expense. This
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will go a long way in ensuring equitable distribution of taxes collected. The NFP supports the report, thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon Chairperson, the Economic Partnership Agreement, EPA, between the European Union, EU, and SADC is exactly what South Africa should achieve with the proposed reforms of SACU.
However, this could prove to be more difficult than we could hope for. It is going to very difficult to convince the BLNAs to give up nearly R50 billion a year of hard cash in exchange of a rather dubious future benefit of being absorbed into the country’s industrial development chains.
For South Africa, the revenue-sharing agreement was unfair as a [Inaudible.] substantial sums and custom revenue to neighbouring states each year. South Africa, as a matter of fact, over-subsidises our neighbours to its own detriment, paying in a region of R30 billion a year, more than we should because of inequitable [Inaudible.] unequal SACU formula work.
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In South Africa’s political and [Inaudible.] interest that SACU members’ economies thrive. But it’s also not a healthy agreement that South Africa contributes 98% of the total funding bill and the BLNAs receive 55% of the proceeds every year.
It is also a fact that some member countries of SACU signed independent trade agreements with the EU which fall within the framework of the economic partnership agreement, which will particularly be a disadvantage for South Africa. This alone, justifies the adjustment and the distribution of revenue within SACU.
It is always easier to negotiate trade deals as a large economic block and it is also much more attractive for the bigger countries to deal with one united custom. And that justifies the interest of all the SACU treaties to be strengthened and signed by al stakeholders. We support this as well. Thank you.
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Mr M D MAHLOBO: Chair, the Southern African Custom Union is the oldest in the world. We know that it dates back as early as 1889 before the Union when an agreement was signed in 1910.
The ideals of which our forefather, the Pan Africanists, they left with us. We continue to cherish that we are one people; we have one destiny, regardless of the artificial boundaries which colonialists had invented including balkanisation.
After our triumph over apartheid and ushering of democracy, we were to live up to the dictum of transformation and change, which is characterised by both discontinuity and continuity.
Hon Macpherson, you are just mistaken to think that the DA is the one that initiated the review or you have been the champion thereof. The review for SACU started in 1994 because we understood that the apartheid government, including the colonial government, wanted to use SACU to influence our neighbouring states, as much as there was a movement of goods and services among those countries. But to our amazement and the strength that these countries and the leaders of our region had, they were able to resist the apartheid government’
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because of the economic benefits they should no be involved in the struggle for the people of South Africa. Hence the first review was done in 1994 so that we can be in a position to deal with these issues.
Ultimately, it led to the agreement that was entered into by the member states in 2002, of which it’s the framework agreement that we are- actually - dealing with the review.
The ANC government believes that this review should be used to promote regional economic integration, industrialisation and economic diversification. Significant work has been done, which has culminated in the agreement that I referred to in 2002.
This year, the heads of state and governments and our President, President Ramaphosa, had a meeting of SACU heads of state and government where they looked at how far this review has taken place and directed Ministers responsible that on the work that they are doing, in terms of the work program, they must be able to expedite the process of the review through the
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work program and be able to come back to them, as a matter of urgency.
This work program is about the six-point plan: firstly, to review the tariff architecture in terms of setting, rebates, trade remedies and duty drawbacks.
Secondly, is to enhance the existing trade facilitation co- operation and collaboration mechanism to ensure efficiency.
There has to be the review of revenue-sharing formula. There must also be the promotion of the value-chain and more importantly, in terms of public policy, to ensure that the development within the region is – actually – taken to the next level.
Therefore, the ANC will continue to provide leadership on this important matter of regional integration so that our economies can be able to demonstrate that we are one people, we have one destiny as the people of this region and the people of the continent of Africa.
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Therefore, the ANC supports the review process and the Report that has been presented by our able Chairperson, Comrade Fubbs. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, since there are no objections, the question has been agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT ESTABLISHING AFRICAN CONTINENTAL FREE TRADE AREA, AFCFTA, IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION
Ms J L FUBBS: Hon House Chairperson, indeed, this refers to the ratification of this agreement, which establishes the long awaited African Continental Free Trade Area Agreement, AFCFTA. We have looked forward for this for many years.
On 1 July 2018, on the occasion of the 31st ordinary session of the African Union heads of state and government in Mauritania, the agreement was signed by South Africa. In fact, for some time now, we have been reviewing this agreement, looking at any challenges that it could pose ... and what we saw was a number of positives.
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It is comprised of 55 African countries. Once it comes into force, it will constitute the largest free trade area globally. That is a lot to be said for that. The CFTA was approved for the ratification by this House. This AFCFTA is anchored on the development of the integration approach, which places emphasis on market integration, infrastructure development and industrial development.
In order to boost intra-African trade and support the continental development imperatives, we believe we must have this ratified. It supports our own key objectives in regional integration development and industrialisation.
Phase one will include investment. Intellectual property and competition will come under phase two of the negotiations.
Let us never forget that currently, intra-African trade stands at 10 to 16%, with Africa share of the world trade estimated to be only three percent. We believe that this agreement will accelerate the achievement of the expansion of interregional trade, which will get to 52% and be able to increase our footprint in the global trading area.
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The AFCFTA creates a single set of rules for trade and investment amongst all African countries and provides legal certainty. As I said, it facilitates intra-African trade and included in these are 22 instruments of ratification and they are all required for the agreement to come into force.
As of August 2018, 49 countries had signed the agreement. Seven had already ratified it. After it enters into force, countries ratifying the agreement will be required to accede to it. This is an important point that we should keep in mind that the decision that those countries take, we would all be bound by it. Any country that does not ratify it now, hangs on and misses the boat and the train would simply have to agree to what other countries in Africa had already unpacked and agreed to.
In this regard, South Africa’s ratification of the agreement prior to its entry into force will ensure that South Africa will be party to all the decisions taken under this process. It will also underscore South Africa’s commitment to regional integration and co-ordinate its strategy to boost intra- African trade.
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Therefore, we call upon the House to support the ratification of the agreement establishing the African Continental Free Trade Area. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, are there any objections to the approval of the agreement establishing the African Continental Free Trade Area as it appears on the Order Paper?
Declarations of vote:
Mr D W MACPHERSON: House Chairperson, South Africa stands at door of history as we ratify the continental free trade agreement, which will create the largest free trading block in the world.
Having access to these new markets in Africa gives South Africa much potential to boost trade and grow investment in South African manufacturing and the services sector. It is now up to the DTI – an agency charged with export promotion to take advantage of our new membership in the continental agreement. However, this should not be seen as our path to economic nirvana and requires South Africa to step up to the
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plate and protect South Africa’s economy from illegal trade through our borders, which if unchecked, is very likely to happen through a free trade agreement like this.
This is because the CFTA requires a custom service that is able to detect and stop transhipments and illegal shipments that arrive in South Africa without having to pay required duties which decimate our manufacturing sector.
Further to this, we will be subjected to a common rulebook that will need to be enforced by all signatories to ensure that the playing fields are level and that no one country takes advantage over another.
We hope that the CFTA will lead to further advancements in areas like transport, especially with respect to the long overdue African Open Skies Agreement. It is still incredible that it can take days to fly from South Africa to certain African countries via hubs like Dubai.
I think the that the one thing that we can be proud of is how Africa is being seen as an advocate for free trade versus a
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growing tendency for the backwards, closed, inwards protectionism that is sweeping much of the advanced economies around us. It is something that we should celebrate and hold in good stead going forward.
The DA will work to ensure that the government uses the CFTA to advance South Africa’s trade interests by protecting our economy from illicit and illegal imports. I thank you.
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: House Chair, this free trade agreement for Africa is possibly the most significant event in and for Africa as a whole. Its significance seems to have been largely underestimated as can be seen by the looming international trade war sparked by US President, Donald Trump and the Brexit negotiations. It absolutely makes good business sense to diversify and hedge risk and this agreement is doing not only for South Africa but for the African continent as a whole.
Our goal of partnering with markets and operators elsewhere in Africa is based on the research and first-hand experience of working on the continent to identify and unlock its potential.
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For now, South Africa remains one of the free major gateways to the African market with existing infrastructure, logistics, banking, manufacturing capabilities, education and legal structures. South Africa should play a leading role in this free trade agreement as well as assist other African countries to unlock the potential of their own markets.
Our aim should also be to improve the export of value-added products and opportunities in this regard are already opening up.
It is time for African leaders and business to get involved in intra-Africa trade so as to ensure that Africa’s economic freedom now in this respect for future generations. The IFP supports this agreement.
Ms D CARTER: Chair, the new trade agreement, which seeks to establish and strengthen African continental unity, regional integration and stronger economic ties through the creation of an African Continental Free Trade Area, is welcomed in principle by Cope.
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An African-wide continental free trade area could turn Africa into the biggest single market since the establishment of the World Trade Organisation. We agree with the view of the Institute for Security Studies that the agreement holds enormous potential for the continent’s social and economic development, its ability to deal with structural causes of conflict and to harness Africa’s demographic dividend — its growing and youthful population.
Africa’s bargaining power lies ultimately in its unity, which will allow it to define how it wants to trade with others beyond and within the continent. However, as the SA Institute of International Affairs points out, the real test will be whether our continent’s leaders will be able to give effect to the agreement and successfully implement the envisaged free trade area, given that a lack of intracontinental unity, political will, technical expertise and financial constraints have historically plagued most of our continental and regional efforts towards deeper intra-African trade to date.
Cope supports the approval of this trade agreement subject to the observations that we have made. Thank you.
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Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, the ratification of this agreement comes during October month, which we know is the month in which the stalwart of the ANC, Oliver Tambo was born. We know very well that this Parliament is where it is today because of the sterling contribution he made in liberating South Africa and other African countries. So it is a fitting tribute that today we pass this continent-wide free trade area agreement so that we can unite the African continent, something that he was passionate about.
The foundational foreign policy framework of the ANC is encapsulated in the Freedom Charter, which declares that there shall be peace and friendship. The Freedom Charter therefore prescribes that the ANC’s and South Africa’s foreign policy outlook should emphasise peace and friendship as opposed to war.
When South Africa joined the Organisation of African Unity, OAU, in 1994, a number of treaties had already been agreed to by the member states of the OAU. Among these treaties is the Abuja Treaty of 1991 in which the OAU agreed to establish an African economic community. This treaty is one of the many
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which guide the activities of the ANC-led government on the continent.
At its 54th national conference, the ANC resolved that Africa and its development remains the central objective of the ANC’s international perspective and policy, with the African Renaissance remaining a key objective. The conference further reaffirmed that the ANC and the ANC-led government remains committed to a peaceful and prosperous South Africa in pursuit of the aspirations of the AU’s Agenda 2063. That is why Agenda 2063 makes a declaration that there can be no peace without development, and there can be no development without peace.
The conference further reaffirmed that the ANC is committed to the AU and all its attended institutions and programmes.
The Continental Free Trade Area, CFTA, is an initiative which is consistent with the imperatives of the Abuja Treaty to establish an African economic community whose building blocks are the regional economic communities, RECs.
Number six therefore ... the objectives of this CFTA are: to progressively eliminate tariffs and nontariff barriers to
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trade; to progressively liberate trade in-services; to co- operate in all trade-related areas; to co-operate on customs matters and the implementation of trade facilitation matters; to establish a mechanism for the settlement of disputes concerning the rights and obligations of the member states of the AU and the investors; and to establish and maintain an institutional framework for the implementation of the free trade area.
According to the AU, the free trade area agreement is a flagship project of the AU which aims to boost inter-African trade by providing a comprehensive and mutually beneficial trade agreement that covers trade in goods and services, investment, intellectual property rights and competition policy.
The CFTA will create a wider market of more than one billion people with a combined gross domestic product, GDP, of
US$3 trillion. The benefits for Africa will be: firstly, boosting employment opportunities on the continent. We know very well that the African continent is a youthful continent where it’s mainly the youth that are unemployed. That’s why
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they find their way to Europe to try and get a better life, whereas they live on a continent that has a lot or resources which can improve their stead.
We know very well that, even here in the country, we are faced with the triple challenge of unemployment, poverty and inequality. So this free trade agreement will help a lot in creating jobs.
It is very important to note that this free trade agreement will lead to a better allocation of resources, improve competition, reduce price differentials between countries and lead to the growth of intratrade through the creation of regional value chains and the development of geographically- based specialisations.
What is very important here is that countries around the equator which have lots of forests can actually make a good furniture industry which can be exported externally, instead of exporting timber. However, what is also very important is that this will provide an opportunity to integrate infrastructure between African countries so that we are able
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to trade easily amongst ourselves. That’s why the AU has championed the issue of the North-South Rail Corridor and also the Western African ... [Inaudible.] ... REC Rail Corridor between Nigeria and Burkina Faso.
However, what is also very important is that in improving the creation of infrastructure they will be able to use the attributes of the African continent, like the building of the biggest hydroelectric power plant in the Democratic Republic of the Congo known as the Inga Dam 3 Project, which, at the end of the day when it is completed, will be able to provide electricity to about 500 million citizens on the continent.
This will improve our ability to mobilise financial resources. Technical resources are borrowed to create productive infrastructure like the Inga Dam. That is why, as I am speaking now, this project has received a boost of funding of about US$14 billion where foreign investors, from China’s Three Gorges Dam consortium and the one from Spain, are putting their resources together so as to ensure that this project sees the light of day.
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What is also very important is that there is going to be an improvement in customs efficiency at the borders so that there can be freer movement of goods amongst our countries. We know very well that our departing colonists ensured that all the infrastructure ... [Inaudible.] ... towards the borders so that we could not trade with each other.
However, this is a real game changer for Africa and the ANC supports the ratification of the CFTA. I thank you.
Agreement establishing the African Continental Free Trade Area, AFCFTA, accordingly approved.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AGREEMENT AMENDING ANNEX 1, CO-OPERATION ON INVESTMENT, OF SADC PROTOCOL ON FINANCE AND INVESTMENT IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION
Ms J L FUBBS: [Laughter.] I am glad to hear that one has earned one’s salary today. Hon Chairperson, we really once again appeal to the House to support the ratification of the Agreement Amending the Annex 1 of the Southern African
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Development Community, SADC Protocol on Finance Investment Protocol which requires co-operation as we continue forward. The Investment Chapter of Southern African Development Community Protocol on Finance and Investment was concluded in 2006. However, it was based on the first generation of the Bilateral Investment Treaties, Bits which – we all know now – had several limitations for many governments. You could not regulate effectively in line with your policy because it opened up government to legal challenges from private companies. The amendments are timely because a large number of countries are reforming their investment policies by reviewing these policies and adopting new approaches.
The Annex 1 ensures that the overarching objective for SADC countries is to protect investment to achieve inclusive growth and sustainable development. As we move forward on this, we are reassured that the amendments ensure the alignment between the investment chapter of SADC Finance and Investment Protocol and South Africa’s Protection of Investment Act, Act 22 of 2015, which promotes regional co-operation. With this Annex 1 being ratified, it will go a long way to underpinning the
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ambition of South Africa in attracting $100 billion. I thank you.
There was no debate.
Agreement Amending Annex 1, Co-Operation on Investment, of the SADC Protocol on Finance and Investment, FIP including the Protocol on Finance and Investment accordingly approved.
VBS MUTUAL BANK REPORT TITLED “THE GREAT BANK HEIST”, A MATTER OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
(Subject for Discussion)
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, good afternoon. Hon Chairperson, the ANC has brought before the House this urgent motion on a matter of public importance to put across its clear position on what transpired at the Venda Building Society, which is known as VBS. The ANC also want to put it upfront that we sympathise with depositors, retail depositors and ordinary South Africans who invested
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their pension monies and their savings in this bank which ended in this crisis.
Hon members, VBS is a mutual bank established by an Act of Parliament and the Mutual Bank Act of 1993. It is also registered and regulated by the SA Reserve Bank. Its share capital comprises of three classes of the following shares: The first one is permanent interest-bearing shares, the second is 72-months fixed period share and the third is 60-months period fixed shares.
These products are savings, fixed deposits, short-term loans, including investment loans and fluid contract loans. In short, the difference between a mutual bank and a commercial bank lies in the class of products it provides. A mutual bank relies heavily on deposits for savings as opposed to a commercial bank which holds stock and makes profits.
Hon members, it became imperative for me to also explain that the majority shareholders in this bank is the Public Investment Corporation, known as the PIC, which is the state entity and Dyambeu Investment which also holds 26% stake and
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the entire 48% stake held by black companies that comprises
300 individuals.
In terms of the Municipal Finance Management Act, municipalities are not allowed to deposit money in mutual banks due to the risky nature of such banks. Only commercial banks should be used by the SA government, for simple reason, municipality funds are meant for service delivery projects, and the rest lies in the liquidity positions of commercial banks as opposed to mutual banks.
We also need to mention upfront that VBS flouted the law by focusing on municipal deposits which comprises 75% of its total deposit. Also, VBS continues to accept municipal deposits even after engaging National Treasury on phasing out municipal deposits based on a report, hon Maynier, which Parliament received earlier this year when the problem started.
In short, VBS management seems to have involved themselves in a self-destructive mission. In total, the bank accepted
R1 billion from municipalities. Now, one asks oneself this
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question concerning VBS, having a concentration of deposit takers in a form of municipalities whose problems are very clear: Why was this business model considered? This leaves us with much to think about.
In March this year, the Standing Committee on Finance requested the SA Reserve Bank and the National Credit Regulator to brief us amid allegations of corruption taking place at VBS. This was done after it was clear that the SA Reserve Bank has started to monitor VBS and after it failed to report to its fellow South Africans multiple of share settlement system.
It started to be evident that VBS was facing a liquidity crisis. VBS then resorted to engage in PIC for funding. After VBS have failed to submit its report, the Reserve Bank had to report it to the Minister of Finance for further action. We also needed to report that the ANC has adopted a resolution on economic development and transformation.
Subsequent to that, the Standing Committee on Finance engaged in a vigorous process to transform the financial sector with
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stakeholders who appeared in front of the committee. Therefore, it is consistent with the ANC’s resolution for the Standing Committee on Finance in its programmes to focus on this trajectory. The Standing Committee on Finance tabled a report in this august House on financial sector transformation which the House adopted in November last year.
In the report, we indicated the high concentration level of economic commanding heights by the big banks controlling 85% stake of the total market. We also reported on a need to diversify and deracialise the markets to ensure black economic empowerment. Therefore, when the VBS crisis was reported, the ANC study group was called for the rescue of VBS, based on the above mentioned principles.
However, we were upfront on the action that needed to be taken against those found wanting in the VBS saga. We as the Standing Committee on Finance therefore express our outrage at plundering of the bank in what is termed, the VBS heist. We therefore call on the Hawks and the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, to act swiftly and decisively against those alleged to be responsible for the collapsing of the bank.
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We will also ensure that the NPA and the Hawks reports urgently on the action taken to investigate such individuals implicated in the forensic reports. We also need to say upfront and report our dismay once again against KPMG which is found wanting. As the committee, we have fast-tracked our regulatory framework on the role played by auditing firms in the South African economy.
We are also concerned about job losses that workers will incur, and we plead with the financial sector to consider using their expertise in other banks. We would also draw lessons from the VBS saga and request authorities to consider the rescue of this bank and the alleged corruption by management must be dealt with. We as the ANC cannot afford to be perceived to be condoning corruption.
If the collapse of the bank is allowed, we will continue to condone racial stereotypes that black people and Africans in particular does not deserve the right to participate in the financial sector. However, we are not blinded by black loyalty without emphasis on effective and efficient black leadership. There is a saying that ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.
Ms T V TOBIAS: It’s not! It’s not!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You can have that saying at the end of the speech when you respond to the debate.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Thank you.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, it’s been called the greatest bank heist in South African history. And the sad thing is that it was perpetrated with the knowledge and active participation of the bank’s management and officials. But the rot goes much deeper than this. These greedy individuals brought on board the municipal managers, chief financial officers and mayors of
15 municipalities. They did this through bribery and pressure from senior government officials and other well-connected political figures.
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People like Danny Msiza, the provincial treasurer of the ANC in Limpopo, or the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC in Limpopo, Florence Radzilani. People like Brian Shivambu, the brother of the ANC Chief Whip Floyd Shivambu. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I don’t have such a bother.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members, order. Chief Whip, why are rising?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I don’t
have a bother called Brian.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Oh, we know that, Chief Whip.
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Mr K J MILEHAM: I didn’t say Brian Mthembu, I said Brian Shivambu ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue, hon member.
Mr K J MILEHAM: The 94 VBS staff members have been retrenched, but they aren’t the guilty parties here. No — the bloodsucking leeches and parasites that have fed off of the savings of some of our country's poorest citizens must be held accountable.
Chairperson, the VBS heist was blatant in its audacity, but completely unsophisticated in its implementation. It was little more than a giant pyramid scheme, which saw some R1,2 billion of municipal funds disappear, never to be seen again. The consequences of this heist have been dire. The curator of VBS has indicated that it is unlikely that municipalities will get their deposits back.
He initially suggested that they might get 10c in a rand. It now appears that this was optimistic, and that they are unlikely to get anything at all. This means that these municipalities, which include some of the poorest and worst
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run in the country will be unable to deliver the basic services that are their primary function. So once again, the residents lose out because of ANC mismanagement and corruption!
In Fetakgomo, Greater Tubatse Municipality, for example, the municipality is in all likelihood not going to be able to pay the wages of municipal staff this month. Basic services such as water supply and the completion of hundreds of RDP houses are on hold because of the loss of some R245 million invested illegally invested in VBS.
In Greater Giyani Municipality, where R161 million was illegally invested in VBS, the newly appointed municipal manager has indicated that there will be a long-term impact on service delivery.
The Vhembe District Municipality Mayor, Florence Radzilani, remember her? She is the ANC Deputy Chair in Limpopo who cried because her R300 000 “Christmas” from VBS wasn’t enough! She admitted that the municipality had been doing business with VBS since 2014. They lost R316 million, which equates to a
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third of their annual operating revenue, and have an outstanding debt to the Department of Water and Sanitation of R691 million that they have not serviced since December last year.
And here is the kicker, In July this year; she said that they “didn’t know of any regulation that restricted the investment”. Maybe she, and the other 14 Mayors, Municipal Managers, MM’s and Chief Financial Officers, CFO’s, should try reading the Municipal Finance Management Act. Because section 7(3)(b) specifically prohibits municipalities from opening accounts with mutual banks. Treasury even notified them that that they were acting illegally, but they thought they knew better.
Every single one of the municipalities with deposits at VBS Mutual Bank is included in the 87 distressed and dysfunctional councils identified by the Minister of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, Dr Z Mkhize, earlier this year. Two of them — Vhembe District Municipality in Limpopo and Madibeng in North West received disclaimed audit opinions, because their financial documents were so poor that the
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Auditor-General, AG, could not make a pronouncement on them. And what action has the Minister - sitting over there taken? None! Only one of the municipalities that lost money in the VBS heist is under administration, and most do not have a financial recovery plan in place.
And lest we forget, there were others affected too; the 22 000 retail depositors who trusted their local bank with their life savings, only to see it plundered and used to fund the luxurious lifestyles of neo-Marxist, Gucci revolutionaries like some members in this House. To buy helicopters and Lamborghinis. And Louis Vitton luggage. They, at least, were protected up to R100 000 through Reserve Bank guarantees. Not like the many small businesses who entrusted VBS with their finances — they won’t be getting their money back.
Chairperson, it was only through questions from the DA that the illegal depositing of funds in VBS by municipalities was exposed. The ANC should hang its head in shame — as should all those who have stood by and watched this outrageous theft without taking action. [Time Expired.]
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members, order!
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members, order! Hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am particularly ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu. Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, will you just take a seat. I just want to see why the hon member is rising. Why are you rising hon member?
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Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, my point of order is: I want to know if it is parliamentary for a member who is implicated in this matter to be speaking in this House? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member, hon member, there are specific ... hon Shivambu, will you take your seat please. I want to draw your attention to the rules and the rules are quite clear that when you have evidence or you have certain information at your disposal, you must submit it to the Speaker in the form of a substantive motion. You cannot just make an allegation like that and that is completely out of order hon member, and I want you to withdraw that remark. [Interjections.]
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I asked a question, I did not make a comment.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, withdraw the remark, please.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I withdraw the question.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Hon Shivambu, continue.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, House Chair, for providing leadership on some degree of insanity. You know, earlier when we were speaking here; there were people who were singing, “pay back the money.” [Interjections.] So, I was reminded that sages say that imitation is the most sincere, but artless form of flattery. [Applause.]
So, as the EFF, we are flattered by those that learnt from us in terms of how we demand accountability from those that are found to be doing wrong things. However, the DA and their faction in the ANC are barking up the wrong tree and we know what normally barks and we will not entertain the barking that has been happening here in terms of the issues of VBS Mutual Bank.
We are going to state here categorically clear without any fear of contradiction that the EFF and ourselves as Members of Parliament never benefitted anything from the VBS Mutual Bank
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looting and the so-called heist that happened there. [Applause.]
However, we want to give you a clearer context of what happened there. The fact of the matter is that there was total wrongdoing by the executives of the VBS Mutual Bank.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Will you just take your seat. Why are you rising hon member?
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is: I would like to ask the member a question. His leader said that they could not without truth ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you know the rules. Subject yourself to the rules and abide by them.
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You cannot ask the member; if you want to take a question and then you just carry on to ask the question anyway. Continue hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, we as the EFF without any fear of contradictions want to call on all the law-enforcement agencies to take decisive action against all the people that did wrong in the VBS Mutual Bank. However, we want to give context to the Minister of Finance who has just arrived, that from 2014, the National Treasury, the SA Reserve Bank, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs were aware that municipalities are depositing money in a mutual bank against the law. And because of opportunism, the National Treasury did not do anything about it. Even when the question was asked to the National Treasury, they just gave the list of the municipalities that were exposed to the VBS Mutual Bank and not only the VBS Mutual Bank by the way, including the Grahamstown Building Society which is a mutual bank has got municipal deposits up to this date.
The Reserve Bank has been aware, throughout the existence of the bank that your exposure to municipalities is dangerous and
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the only caution that the Reserve Bank gave to the VBS Mutual Bank was that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... your depositors that are concentrated with municipalities please balance them. Not discontinued them all together. So, the regulatory opportunism that defined the National Treasury, the SA Reserve Bank and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is what gave rise to what we are faced with now where people realise that there is lawless environment and they did a lot of lawless loans to themselves in terms of the monies that were not supposed to be given to them. And there must be unmitigated action in that regard. However, what is to be done? Firstly, it is that there must be an attempt by the curator to save the bank and give it back to the depositors. [Applause.]
In any way, a mutual bank is not supposed to have a single dominant shareholder. All the depositors of a mutual bank are by definition supposed to be the shareholders of that particular bank. So, in the same way we did with the African
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Bank, let us put VBS Mutual Bank under curatorship, save it and hand it over to the depositors with a principled agreement that no single shareholder is going to have more that 2% control over the bank in the manner that got to happen throughout that particular environment.
However, this incident must not divert all of us to think that black people and a black government cannot run banks. That is why we must pass the Banks Amendment Bill as tabled in the Standing Committee on Finance, so that we have a diversified bank policy in South Africa. [Applause.]
We must not be deterred by shouters and detractors who are just barking at things that they have got no understanding about. We stay firm that that there must be action against those that have done wrong and we must take forward the struggle for economic inclusion and balance black ownership in South Africa. Thank you, very much. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members, order! Order, hon members! Order, hon members, order! The next
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speaker is the hon Hlengwa! Order, hon members! Order, hon member! [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, Chairperson, can that hon Mabe go back to that municipal council where she was a councillor. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, I have not recognised you! Please take your seat hon member!
Ms B P MABE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat! Please take your seat! Hon ... [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: Floyd, pay back the money!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon members there at the back, next to the hon Mabe, I cannot even hear the hon Mabe what she said. It is a debate hon member. Why did you rise hon member?
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Ms B P MABE: Chair, I wanted to check that Brian is a millionaire from no where. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member that is not a point of order, please take your seat!
Ms B P MABE: The brother to Shivambu, he is a millionaire. It is a fact, Chair. He is a millionaire!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am switching off your mic! You are now delaying the debate. [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: From no where, four million! Hhayi!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat!
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I just want to say that Brian Shivambu is married, please! Do not impose yourselves.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat!
Ms B P MABE: But he is a millionaire, from no where! He is a millionaire! Hhayi!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, some two to three hours ago I stumbled upon an article in which the headline stated, and I quote: “Mom locked up for stealing R3,99 cheese roll.” It happened here at Pick n Pay in Waterfront. The woman was arrested, humiliated, thrown into the back of a police van and jailed for a couple of hours.
However, 53 individuals stole R2 billion from over 22 000 very poor people in Venda yet no one has been arrested.
Investigation turn to go on for months and to years on end, and not a single individual has been arrested. There is just no accountability.
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It is, of course, ironic that there aforementioned scenario took place at the Pick n Pay where the general accepted is to make a pick and to pay. Therefore, the VBS great heist looters have made their pick on which to destroy the bank and now they must pay. That payment is jail time. Every single cent must be recovered and paid back to the thousands of poor people who have been robbed. The people who stole the money must simple go to jail. It is theft and they must be punished.
It would be an opportune moment for the President of the country to establish a national task team to assess the banking practices of all banks particularly on issues of adherence to regulations and to determine the extent of collusion and corruption amongst banks so to be able to trace the money trail. Where did the money go after leaving VBS? It is very clear that the Zuma administration shenanigans are fast unravelling and it is clear now that corruption had become embedded as a norm in the course of governance without any due regard for consequences. The VBS falls within this ambit.
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Accordingly, the IFP believes that South Africa would be well served to establish a corruption court to deal with the various allegations related to the transgressions of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, and other Treasury regulations and the Auditor-General’s findings in order to fast-track cases and to ensure that justice is served swiftly. It would serve us well to start with justice for the people of VBS.
The question comes: Where was the Reserve Bank? Where was the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Fica, because we have been down this road before? Ithala Bank was also pillaged by the very similar top senior ranking officials of the ANC. The same applies with VBS. How do we reconcile the fact that whilst a lot of attention so correctly is on the brother of hon Shivambu, but the fact that top senior leaders of the ANC themselves have had their hands in the cookie jar is an indicative of the ANC which is rotten to the core and protecting those who are so ... [Time expired.] To serve you well not to haul, those in glass houses should not throw stones.
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. Hon House Chairperson and members of the House, I want to thank hon Tobias for raising this matter for debate. We do believe is a matter thus of national importance, and all of us should focus on it.
However, I think it is important for us to say when we deal with this matter, we must try and separate issues out and be able to say what is wrong, and what needs to be done to correct it; and also agree where we think that there are weaknesses in the system so that we can strengthen as we move forward.
Scores of people, especially the poor who invested funds from burial societies and other monies from various savings, household savings schemes have lost their individual deposits. They have also lost their money indirectly through the R1,57 billion investment made by municipalities illegally into the VBS Mutual Bank, which has impacted on the service delivery.
We want to say clearly that we strongly condemn the wanton fraud and corruption that has been displayed in the VBS saga.
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It has been recorded as “The Great Bank Heist”. We all agree here that this should never have happened. I have said to the portfolio committee that, I agree with those who say this was a case of the greedy stealing from the poor.
The report reveals the complicity of some senior municipal officials, through bribes and other malpractices in relation to the invested funds. It revealed that more people were more aware of this than was previously disclosed. If you follow the Advocate Motau’s report, the Municipal Managers, Mayors and Chief Financial officers were introduced to the VBS by an agent who kept on receiving commissions on every deposit of funds made. This cannot be accepted.
The involvement of all the bribes, fraud, theft and corruption is a criminal offence and we must all agree that the police have to investigate these matters, deal with those who are involved and there shouldn’t be any excuses about it. We need to ensure that when we deal with them, we are all on the same side of this matter. It must be made an example to those who steal government money in particular, that we cannot accept that in South Africa.
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Whilst we condemn what happened at VBS we also need to emphasise that we do need many such independent banks, which are designed to assist the poor and also a black business, cooperatives and SMMEs who always find themselves marginalised by the mainstream banks and other financial institutions.
The issue of transformation of the financial services sector cannot be postponed because this case serves to illustrate the fact that there is a posting of such institutions, which should actually be available for our people at the grassroots level.
May I also say that this incident of the VBS should not be used to stigmatise black professionals or black business owners. There are many black professionals and business people who can establish and run banks professionally, with integrity and competence. Therefore, opportunities should be opened for them as part of the radical economic transformation. Thus we believe it is a very important issue. We must separate the issues up.
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The investment of funds in the Mutual Bank is not permitted and this has been clearly raised to the various municipalities in terms of the Municipal Investment Regulations. Therefore, those municipalities that are involved did this contrary to the Municipal Finance Management Act. The National Treasury did engage those municipalities, sent notices to indicate that this was illegal and that it was important for them to correct that situation.
I think when the hon, Mr Shivambu raises this issue he must not create an impression that there is in anyway a justifiable reason why we could actually say this thing could have happened. It is unacceptable, whether or not there were actions of the Reserve Bank or the National Treasury, simply because everyone operated under the same legislation that he or she should have been aware of. So we can’t create a sense of justification.
We have given the list of all those municipalities I will not waste the time of the House by going through those because this has been already published and we have also given a detailed report. However, we are concerned that the impact of
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this on service delivery is that some of these municipalities are experiencing serious financial distress and as it has been said it is true and a lot of them were included under the distress municipalities precisely because of the VBS issue.
They are struggling to meet their financial and service delivery obligations.
These challenges include the inability to pay service providers, salaries and the implementation of projects, some of which had to be suspended or delayed or postponed. We have given the details of that to the portfolio committee earlier. I will not deal with that right now. The impact also includes those projects which were delayed as well as the issue of inability to pay within 30 days as expected.
Our analysis also indicates that the mostly affected municipalities are Mahikeng; Madibeng; Dr Ruth Mompati; West Rand; Feta Kgomo; Tubatse and Giyane. In Fetakgomo Tubatse Local Municipality we have actually seen this in public and the municipality is technically bankrupt at this stage and is at a risk of litigation by service providers and contractors who might have not been paid.
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The conditional grants are not used for the intended purpose and this is a matter of serious concern to us. The municipality has not paid its monthly office rental of R1,8 million since July 2018. There are already community protests in this area.
In Gauteng, West Rand District Municipality also invested these conditional grants at the VBS. Of late we have also noted that they have had challenges in paying their salaries and they have actually asked for advances on their equitable share, and we are dealing with this particular matter.
They have argued that they were having problems because some of the funds which were destined for them, they had used their funds in the disaster relief. However, we believe that in all the municipalities the crisis will come out when the National Treasury responds to request for rollovers of funds when it becomes clear that the requested rollovers are not cash backed and that even if they are approved, there is no cash in the bank as particularly the National Treasury will have to withdraw the equivalent amounts in terms of the equitable share.
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I did meet all these municipal managers and Mayors, chief financial officers on the 19 June 2018. It was made clear to them that their action was illegal and that we also had to ensure that amongst the things that they need to do we need to focus on the forensic investigations. This was mainly because when we ask, some of them said that they almost never knew what had happened and it was clear that not everything that was said to us was the truth.
So we have asked them to develop financial recovery plans and we are pursuing those that have not done so. Those that have done it, we are monitoring them very closely, and therefore we want to ensure that for all those councils, there is consequence management for all the wrongdoing and some of them have already started to indicate some of the actions that they are taking.
We have also indicated to them that in terms of all the actions that are needed, we will be monitoring their performance, where it is unsatisfactory, we have mechanisms of interventions. So all the sections, in the Constitution: section 139, is available for the next level of intervention,
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but we are monitoring all of them and where we think that there is all we need to intervene, we will not hesitate to do that.
All the three provinces have got forensic investigation audit that is going on at that level, but there are also reports already of some actions. For example, in the Greater Giyani Local Municipalities, they have suspended their CFO and Director, Technical Services on July 2018 for financial misconduct. The Director, Technical Services’ contract lapsed already whilst under suspension.
In Vhembe District Municipality, we have the council placed in Municipal Manager and the CFO on precautionary suspension pending allegations of misconduct against them. In Mahikeng in North West, the municipal manager is facing disciplinary charges and the council resolved to suspend the official and to open a fraud case. We have also heard that the Mahikeng have approached the Polokwane court to seek the unwinding of the VBS.
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In Madibeng, the disciplinary processes have also started and they have also suspended three officials and one of them is the MMC for finance. A criminal case has been opened at the Brits police station on this matter and we support all of those actions that have been taken. Investigations are continuing at Moretele and the Dr Ruth Sekgomotsi Mompati municipalities. We have as Cogta, briefed the senior council to lead a combined team of the National Treasury, Cogta, Provincial and National levels, as well as municipalities to pursue aggressively the lawsuit to recover the money, wherever it might be...[Interjections.] [Time expired.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, once again we are gathered here to deliberate on the theft and looting of billions of rand of taxpayers’ money. Hon Chairperson, again and once again, I observe hypocrisy at its highest level. Again, members in this House have set different rules for different members of this House. When my friends in the overalls find stolen monies in their accounts they call it sharing amongst family members. [Laughing.] [Interjections.]
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Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shaik Emam, take your seat please. Order, hon members! Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The hon member has just made some remarks that impugn on the members of the House that they have received money into their pockets. Could you please request him to withdraw that; failing that he is not going to speak. We can walk over to him now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you have raised a point of order. [Interjections.] Let me just address this matter once and for all. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! I am fully aware that the debate today will bring to the fore many matters that are of concern to all of us. I do, however, wish to caution members to be circumspect about the manner in which they address one another and members of the House, so that we do not fall foul of the Rules that we have agreed to as a collective. Free speech is fundamental in the context of members’ abilities to represent the people they
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serve and their interests. As such, this privilege is afforded to members when speaking in the Assembly, or any of its committees.
This privilege is only qualified by the Rules and orders that the Assembly imposes on itself in order to guide debate and to allow reasoned consideration of issues by members in an open and democratic manner. One such limitation on freedom of speech is that members may not impute improper or unworthy motives or conduct on the part of other members, nor may they cast personal reflections on their integrity or verbally abuse them in any way. While the Rules allow us considerable latitude for criticism and being able to differ from each other politically, it is incumbent on each one of us to treat the other in a manner befitting the dignity and decorum of this House and, indeed, in such a manner that we ourselves would want to be treated should the roles be reversed.
If such unsubstantiated accusations were allowed in general debate, they would undermine not only members in the performance of their duties but also the House. In this regard, we all, but particularly the Whips, have a
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responsibility to ensure that our Rules and our role as Members of Parliament are upheld. This does not mean that if a member has good reason to believe another member, or members, has acted improperly that they should not bring the matter to the attention of the House and to the Speaker by way of the mechanism provided in the Rules to do so, namely a separate substantive motion which comprises a clearly formulated and properly substantiated charge.
It is thus inappropriate and in contravention of the Rules for any member of this House to cast aspersions on the character and integrity of another member without doing so through a substantive motion. Hon Shaik Emam, you must withdraw that remark.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I am busy with a ruling here. Take your seat, please.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Just recognise me when you are done with him, please.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, take your seat. Hon Shaik Emam, will you withdraw that remark please.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Chair. I withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Now, hon Shaik Emam, I see the hon Plouamma has asked to be heard. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair, for the past three years we have been singing “Pay back the money” when the former President was coming here ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is the point of order?
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: What I am saying is that the same ... the way we treated the former President, we must do it to the hon Floyd Shivambu ... [Interjections.] ... because that is his brother. That is his brother. [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Order, Chair! Order, Chair. “Wena” [You], just sit down.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order. Would you take your seat, please?
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Would you take your seat, please?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: “Wena” [You], you are bored here. Just sit down.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair! His brother pocketed R16 million of the poor people in Venda ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat!
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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: His brother is like Duduzane Zuma.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you are refusing to take my ruling. Take your seat. I am switching off your microphone now.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair, you can switch off as much as you want. We are going to ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon Plouamma!
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Floyd Shivambu must talk to his brother to pay the money.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I did not give you permission to address the House. You are on the speakers’ list. You will have a chance later on to participate in the debate. Hon Shaik Emam, would you continue please.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chair. Chair, I have a concern. There is no doubt that the hon Shivambu admitted that
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money came into his account. So, that is not in dispute, Chair. Number two, Chair, what is not in dispute ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shaik Emam, would you take your seat please. Hon member, why are you rising?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, the speaker at the podium is misleading the House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member ...
Mr G A GARDEE: The VBS report by the senior counsel makes no reference to any member in this House. If the hon member has any contrary information to that of Senior Counsel Motau on the so-called VBS heist, I think he knows where to ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Take your seat. Hon Shaik Emam, I read a lengthy ruling in
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respect of this matter. I would request you to desist from repeating the same thing that you said before the ruling was made. It’s going to make the debate very difficult if you continue in that manner. I want you to be mindful that the remarks that you are making are unparliamentary and you must withdraw them. Hon Shaik Emam.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Chair. I withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Hon Shaik Emam, would you take your seat. I want to recognise the hon member.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson, I was also confused because you just took us through the Rules and you applied the same Rule when you were protecting Shaik Emam when he stole a salary of a poor person in his constituency. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Now ... Hon member! [Interjections.]
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Ms H O MKHALIPI: ... police were looking for him here, but you went an extra mile and protected him ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: ... because he is a Member of Parliament ... when he stole the salary of a poor kid there.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you must withdraw that remark.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: You also protected him.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you must withdraw that remark. The same applies to you.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Okay, I withdraw, but ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What applies to the hon Shaik Emam applies to you. [Interjections.]
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Ms H O MKHALIPI: I’m going to remind you. Thief! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shaik Emam. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Hon House Chair ... I rise on Rule
84. Hon Hlengiwe – when she was taking her seat – called the hon member there a thief. Could she withdraw that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, did you say that?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: No, I did not say that, Chair. I withdraw unconditionally, but this one we will meet him in the streets.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat. Take your seat, hon member.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: We want that R5 000 you stole.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat now. [Interjections.] Hon members, order! Let us continue with the debate. Hon Shaik Emam.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chair. When you try to stop your staff from stealing taxpayers’ money, then you are called stealing. When others steal the money, then they say it’s not theft; it’s taking. But, anyway, that’s the understanding of it.
What happened in terms of VBS is very loud and clear. This was well planned. It was initiated by more than just one or two people from the bank. It also included many politically influenced people from different political parties. There is no doubt about that at all.
I think what is very important ... I saw the SIU and the Hawks outside; I saw the SAPS here. Maybe they should start from now, coming and taking away anybody who is implicated and deal with them and deal with them rightfully. [Interjections.] Because you cannot come here and tell us that somebody else is stealing, but, when it affects you, you have a different rule
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and a different law for that. [Interjections.] Everyone must be treated like my colleague said. In the end, everybody must be treated equally before the law.
Hon Chairperson, let me go further. The amount of money that was taken away ... and in terms of what I have identified and established in terms of the reports: a very great percentage of that went to a particular person by the name of Brian Shivambu. Brian Shivambu, in my understanding, was an ordinary person with a spaza shop. And, then, next thing you find he gets R16 million coming into an account, which goes into an account of a brother of his. Then they said, “No, this has got nothing to do with that at all.” When a report comes from a person with integrity, we must now go and relook at that report to see whether it is true or not true when you are implicated.
The NFP has only one way to deal with this: Take all these people and put them behind bars and throw the keys away because they are stealing - that is all they are doing - taxpayers’ money and from the poorest of the poor. [Applause.]
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Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chairperson, look, ladies and gentlemen, what happened here at the Venda Building Society, VBS, Bank is extremely embarrassing and scandalous. We shouldn’t turn this into an ideological debate because it is not. It is one case of people who looted a bank and stole monies that belonged to the poor and most of them can look at us in the eye with a straight face and say I didn’t do anything.
I find it very strange that the ANC didn’t know what was happening there even though its President borrowed money from the same bank to pay back its money. So, the ANC did know? The Treasury didn’t do anything? The South African Reserve Bank also saw what was happening, but they decided to turn a blind eye?
IsiXhosa:
Andinigezeli yinyaniso.
English: If the shoe fits, wear it.
IsiXhosa:
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Akayibhatelanga uMsholozi enguMongameli, uyiqalile wayitya, amasela.
English: You see, the kneejerk reaction in as far as this matter is concern, is to say...
IsiXhosa:
bayangxola, mabaye kuzixhoma bonke, le ANC imoshile neVBS bank, zonke zityiwe nini ezimali, thina simana silungisa.
English:
Look at the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, for instance; there is no due diligence about the investments that are being made there.
IsiXhosa:
Akho mntu ujongayo nokuba imali ifakwa phi na kwaye ithini ingeniso kuyaqhutywa njee, nemali ye VBS itshonile nalapho.
English:
We want to call on the law enforcement agencies who always say that, South Africans like that. We go on TV and say everyone
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who has been found guilty must face the full mighty of the law, but people have been opening cases and nothing happened to them. The very same hawks do nothing about the cases that we open about allegations against you.
So, what do you do? Do you reassert to the kneejerk reaction to say save the bank, save the bank, for what to happen? There is no culture of accountability in the ANC. You will save the bank like we have been saving state-owned enterprises, SOEs and then what happened? It was impunity. No one will be arrested. People will just continue to loot state resources.
They will continue to steal taxpayer’s monies, then after that there will be a culture of impunity. No, firstly, there must be accountability before we can even talk about saving the bank. We save the bank for whom?
IsiXhosa:
Amasela
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, when you steal you are nothing else, you are a criminal and is also a sin. What is amazing is that the only thing the ANC can say is that it should have
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never happened. Now, I want to put it quite clear. What actually should have never happened is that the ANC should have never become the government of South Africa, because you as the government have set the example of corruption.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Order!
Dr P J GROENEWALD: You have set the example of how to steal the money from the taxpayer. Now, we see that the community in itself they even steal from the poor.
Afrikaans:
Agb Voorsitter, die heldin van die hele VBS-skandaal is eintlik niemand anders as Mariette Venter nie – ’n Afrikaanssprekende wit vrou, wat die waarnemende finansiële bestuurder van die Capricorn ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Groenewald, will you just take a seat? Let me hear why the member is rising.
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Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, no, I am rising to find out if the hon Greonewald can take a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are you prepared to take a question?
Afrikaans:
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek sal nie een vat die, want ek vat net intelligente vrae.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, he is not prepared to take a question, hon member.
Afrikaans:
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Vootsitter, die heldin is Mariette Venter, wat die waarnemende finasiële bestuurder van die Capricorn-distriksmunisipaliteit was, wat geweier het dat R60 miljoen oorgeplaas word in die VBS Bank. Wat gebeur toe? Sy word toe beskuldig dat sy ’n rassis is, want ’n wit vrou wil nie by ’n swart bank geld laat belê deur die
munisipalitiet nie. Dit is ook ’n aanklag teen die gemeenskap, dat bloot omdat jy wit is en jy die wet wil volg, moet jy
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gesien word as ’n rassis. Ons sê vir haar baie dankie. Die belastingbetalers behoort haar ook te bedank.
English:
Chairperson, I am coming to the EFF. I want to say to the EFF; quite a lot of smoke is coming out of the doors and the windows of the war room of the EFF. Now, I hear that you refer to your leader as the Commander-in-Chief but he is absent here today.
Now, let me say that a real Commander-in-Chief who is not here today to protect its soldiers.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson? On a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Greonewald, can you just take your seat. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, the Commander-in-Chief is not absent. He is attending the Pan-African Parliament in Kigali, Rwanda. The hon member is misleading the House.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, we are aware of that, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: He is not aware. Can you make him aware?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): He is now aware. Take your seat, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: Can he withdraw the word absent?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, there is nothing to withdraw, hon member. Thank you for the information.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: The fact of the matter is that he is not here. The real Commander-in-Chief ... [Inaudible.]
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Greonewald, take your seat, please. Take your seat.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising, hon member?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Secondly, we not answerable to this hon member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member that is not a point order. That is the matter for debate.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Yes, he must not come and question us here. We are not answerable to you chief. We want our land.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member take your seat. Take your seat.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: At least South Africa now knows that the leader of the EFF is nothing else than a micky mouse Commander-in-Chief. Let’s solve this problem.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Greonewald, take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member. Hon members just take your seats.
Mr G A GARDEE: If Mr Greonewald wants us to get to insults. I think we are more capable than him. Can you please just tell him to withdraw that so called micky mouse Commander-in-Chief, otherwise he is not going to talk and we make him not to talk.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat now. Hon Greonewald.
Mr G A GARDEE: Just tell him that, otherwise we will come there for him now. We don’t fear him.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat.
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Mr G A GARDEE: He is useless man. He is very useless.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am switching off you microphone now.
Mr G A GARDEE: Do you think we can’t come to you there?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat. I switch off your microphone now. Hon Greonewald. Order, hon members! Order! Hon Greonewald, you were here earlier when I read a lengthy ruling in terms of respect to one another.
Can we maintain that, please and not allow ourselves to be led into a situation where we start throwing insults to one another? I want you to withdraw that remarks, please.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, with respect he is a micky mouse Commander-in-Chief.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: I will not withdraw that.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, since you don’t want to withdraw the remark, can you leave the podium, please?
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, may I address you on this matter?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Greonewald?
Dr P J GROENEWALD: May I address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, you may.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chair, this is the National Assembly. According to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, there is only one Commander-in-Chief in this House and that is the hon President of the Republic of South Africa. No one else can be a Commander-in-Chief.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Greonewald? Order! You have refused to withdraw the remarks. Can you now leave the podium, please?
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Dr P J GROENEWALD: I will do it with honour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Chairperson, it was President Mandela who
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! I want to hear the member at the podium.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: It was President Mandela who lamented that little did we suspect that our own people when they got the chance would be as corrupt as the apartheid regime.
Ms H O Mkhalipi: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Lekota, will you take your seat? Why are you rising, hon member?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: I am sorry to disturb the member at the podium. But this member is supposed not to come and sit down here. He must leave the precinct of Parliament.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. Hon Lekota, just give me an opportunity to deal with this matter. Just take your seat, please. Hon members! Hon members, can you just ... you see, you infringe on the rights of the member who is at the podium to address the House if you are so noisy.
Regarding the point the hon member has just raised I have made a ruling and I requested the member to leave the podium. He had still the time left and that is exactly what it meant.
There is no reason for him to leave the House. Continue, hon Lekota.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Chairperson, I was saying that President Mandela once lamented that we did not have an idea that as soon as our people got a chance they would be as corrupt as the apartheid regime. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, can we just let the noise level down please.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I want to say this afternoon, the initiation of this debate by the ANC for me smacks of hypocrisy. The municipalities who deposited the money of our people in this
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bank were in the majority if not all of them, controlled by the ANC. Secondly, when there was a need to repay the money of Nkandla; the ANC’s leadership knew where to get the money.
They went right to that bank and took that money and paid Nkandla with it. [Interjections.]
The fact of the matter is that the common denominator in the circumstances our country finds itself today ... [Interjections.] ... the rampant fraud, corruption and looting of the fiscus, the capture of the state, the perversion of its purpose, and the destruction of its capacity, the weakening of moral fibre of society is the ANC. [Interjections.]
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chair, point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Lekota will you just take your. I need to take this point. Hon Lekota just take your seat, please. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr H P CHAUKE: I am rising on a point of order because it is unpaliamentary for a member to mislead the House. The ANC never took money from any bank.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Fortunately, I didn’t say that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: The sad thing about it, the one’s proud liberation movement is now compromised and corrupted beyond redemption. I really don’t want to debate long. Everybody has read about this whole thing. The important thing is the following, the suggestion that I hear being made that criminals who perpetrated the crime be given a chance to correct their own crime. That is unknown in human history. You can’t have something like that. We of the Cope call on the electorate in the next year’s election to please vote the different set of men and women into government so that they may clean the rubbish which others have now created. If South Africa only wants to make a fresh start it must remove all of those who are responsible, who have been managing and mismanaging this thing that has caused our country to be where it is. We want a better future for our children, great-grand
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children and so on. It will not be created by criminals, who have created these things, who are managing it, who are busy preparing to cover up this corruption that has destroyed our country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP is shocked and appalled at the brazen fraud and theft at the VBS Mutual Bank. Yet, another scandal - we are almost exhausted by one scandal after the next, after the next. The great bank heist report compiled by the Advocate Terry Motau with the assistance of Werkmans attorneys at what costs revealed this investigation into VBS bank. Now it reports theft almost at R2 billion and the consequences have been dire. Ninety four bank employees have been retrenched, some municipalities have lost almost
R1,2 billion.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Swart can you just take your seat.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I am sorry to disturb the member there.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Swart, take your seat please. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, there is that man over there [Interjections.] I don’t know his name. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: No, no, I want to state it. This is a House of Parliament here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is a point of order?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: He is threatening me, not that I am terrified of him but he is threatening me. [Interjections.] That man. If that young man thinks that he can do anything, he can try it. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, hon members, order! Hon members, let us not engage in behaviour that ... [Interjections.] ... order, hon members. Let us not engage in behaviour and say things that infringe on the decorum of the House. You can make your point without
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threatening or making other gestures to other members. Continue, hon Swart.
Mr S N SWART: Chair, worst still is that law-abiding customers
– many of whom are poor and vulnerable have been robbed by the institution they put their trust in. Thousands are at risk to lose their savings and stokvel money. It is disgraceful that ANC mayors and officials and high-level political employees, and appointees facilitated this. Allegations have also been made of Mr Brian Shivambu and these are just as disturbing. We heard Mr Shivambu of the EFF today and there is a saying that says he protesteth too much.
Afrikaans:
Waar daar ’n rookie is is daar ’n vlam.
English:
So, we need a full investigation into these issues. Perhaps, the scariest part of this is the dysfunctional it has revealed in the checks and balances in the auditing firms and of course, its executives to fragrantly break and breach the Municipal Finance Management Act is absolutely disgraceful. So
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we have this word that we now use “consequence management”. Consequence management, yes.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, on point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Swart, there is another point of order. Yes, hon Khubisa why are you rising?
IsiZulu:
USOLWAZI N M KHUBISA: Sihlalo ngicela ukuyibeka ngesiZulu ngoba ngibona ingqindi yelungu elihloniphekile uMkhalipi ibheka ngapha ngakithi imi kanjeya. Angazi ukuthi kwenzekani sesithukile lapha. [Uhleko.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member it can mean a lot of things. Don’t feel threatened, take your seat please. It’s okay. Continue, hon member.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chairperson, I have a book in my hand. I don’t know why I am harassed by the NFP. Can you protect me, Chairperson?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, maybe you caught his attention. Take your seat, its okay. You can discuss it outside. Continue, hon Swart.
Mr S N SWART: So what do you understand by consequence management? Consequence management, can we say, yes, the funds must be recovered. Those perpetrators must go jail, but the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and the Hawks have not been able to investigate the State Capture yet. Here we are telling them to go after VBS – they are overworked. They are totally overworked. So, consequence management is a misnomer unless we give those assets forfeiture units extra funds so that they can do the work and we can recover those funds. We need additional action but when those agencies are underfunded it is unfair to expect them to do the work when now they are still investigating issues from 10 years ago. Hon member earlier said yes, we say law enforcement agencies must do the work but they are totally overworked. We need to accept responsibility for lacking oversight as Parliament and not exercising correct oversight over these institutions. Yes, we need to recover those looted funds. We need to compensate the VBS customers and everyone must face the full force of the
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law. However, let’s give our law enforcement agencies more power and more resources so that we can effectively have consequences management, hon Minister of Finance. I thank you.
Mr D J MAYNIER: House Chairperson, the hon Petrus Groenewald got it wrong. The commander of what has now become known as the EFTs is not a commander-in-chief; it is a commander-in- thief. [Laughter.] Now, the ANC ... [Interjection.]
Ms H O MKHALIPI: On a point of order Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maynier, take your seat, please?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: You must sit down when I raise a point of order. You don’t know the Rules. Sit down.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, why are you rising?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Yes, but Chairperson ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maynier, take your seat!
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Sit down! Thank you, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you address me? You are not allowed to give instructions in the House. You raise a point of order; I listen to it and make a ruling.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you, Chairperson. Can you also tell this person to withdraw his remarks because this is an insult to the president of the EFF. So, we cannot allow him to just dance on top of our heads. He is nothing.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, please!
Ms H O MKHALIPI: You are nothing.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maynier, you must withdraw that remark.
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Ms Z DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Hon House Chair? [Interjection.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, which remark would you like me to withdraw?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You know what remark you made, hon member. Will you withdraw it, please?
Mr D J MAYNIER: Is it the EFT or commander-in-thief?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you must withdraw the remark.
Mr D J MAYNIER: I withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
Ms Z DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Hon House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maynier, take your seat! What’s your point of order, hon member?
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Ms Z DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: Can I kindly address you, hon House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): In terms of what Rule, hon member?
Ms Z DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: In terms of the ruling that you have just made now. It is happening for the second time. Hon Groenewald never mentioned a name. Hon Maynier, never mentioned a name. So, in other words ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat. It is quiet clear who the members are referring to.
Continue, hon member?
Mr D J MAYNIER: House Chairperson, the ANC calling for a debate on corruption is rather like King Herod calling for a debate on child safety, because at the end of the day, it is the black, green and gold of the governing party that is at the centre of the grand bank heist at VBS Mutual Bank.
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We know that the kingpin of commissions was Danny Msiza, who was the provincial chairperson of the governing party in Limpopo province. We know that this debate is just a desperate attempt to divert attention away from the governing party in the grand bank heist at VBS Mutual Bank.
Now, House Chairperson, we now know the VBS Mutual Bank ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maynier, will you take your seat, please? Hon Shaik Emam, why are you rising?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, I would like to know if hon Maynier will take a question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Maynier, are you prepared to take a question?
Mr D J MAYNIER: No, hon Chairperson, I only take sensible questions ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The member is not prepared to take a question. Continue, hon member!
Mr D J MAYNIER: House Chairperson, we know that the looting scheme was greased by fixers paying commissions to secure municipal deposits, greased by directors paying bribes to buy silence and greased by auditors benefiting from facilities to cook the books. The victims of the grand bank heist at VBS Mutual Bank were of course the poor depositors, stokvels and burial societies, who entrusted their saving to VBS Mutual Bank.
The final report on the grand bank heist at VBS Mutual Bank prepared by Advocate Terry Motau is a masterpiece of forensic work and writing. The final report claims that the looting was hidden from view and that had the truth been told, the regulators would have been able to act and the looting could have been stopped. However, it is simply not true that the looting scheme at VBS Mutual Bank was hidden from view. The fact that VBS Mutual Bank was taking illegal deposits from municipalities was known and was in the public domain from at least 14 October 2016, which is more than a year before VBS
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Mutual Bank was placed under curatorship by the South African Reserve Bank.
The National Treasury and the South African Reserve Bank took action by sending emails to municipalities advising them that funds should not be deposited at VBS Mutual Bank.
The effect, believe it or not, was that VBS Mutual Bank tried to interdict National Treasury from engaging with municipalities and accepted a R1 billion more in deposits from municipalities after receiving a warning from National Treasury.
We have to be clear that the reason VBS Mutual Bank was placed under curatorship was because it was a scheme of looting that not only falsified its financial statements but also falsified its reports to regulators with the knowledge of the external auditors.
However, it appears in the end that National Treasury and the South African Reserve Bank acted but it was too late, only clamping down several months after it became clear that
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municipalities were making illegal deposits to VBS Mutual Bank. That is why we need an independent inquiry into the action taken by the National Treasury and the South African Reserve Bank after they became aware that municipalities are making illegal deposits to VBS Mutual Bank. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Speaker, we are here today debating the circumstances that surrounded the failure of a mutual bank that the broader society and government desperately wanted to succeed. Many things have been said in the public domain by political parties, but very little is based on the facts that are available before us.
The only facts out in the public domain are that the mutual bank was put under curatorship, the civil legal proceedings instituted by the curator against certain individuals and entities, as well as details that emerged from the forensic investigation into the affairs of the VBS conducted by Adv Terry Motau is what we have before us. Some of the detail findings of the forensic investigation are not in public domain, but have been handed over to law enforcement agencies,
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the prosecuting authorities, National Treasury and the SA Revenue Services, amongst others, for the purposes of conducting criminal investigations.
We know from 2008 global financial crisis that bank failures are particularly detrimental for the wellbeing of the poor and middle class of any society. The failure of large banking institutions, also known as SIFIs, properly read systemically important banks, in many instances can have harmful consequences for the economy and the fiscal position of a country. Indeed, the failure of Lehman Brothers Bank not only led to recession in those countries but in many countries including South Africa, where we lost a million jobs.
Though not systemically important banks, we have in August 2014 experienced the failure of African Bank and VBS in March this year. Both were traumatic events, even though they did not impact adversely on the broader economy, but because they hurt the poor, who deposited their savings into these banks. Yes, Speaker, we paid out most retail depositors up to
R100 000, but shareholders lost almost all their value in shares. Many retirement and savings funds also suffered big
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losses. So many ordinary working and middle class people also lost out on their savings.
With regard to how VBS was regulated, banks have been traditionally regulated for one reason only, to protect depositors. Trust is central to banking, which is why the public deposits their savings in banks they trust for safekeeping.
Regulators such as Prudential Authority do not manage banks, nor do they oversee the operation of a bank on a day-to—day basis. Instead, since they monitor and regulate all banks and have limited resources, they have risk-based approach to determining how much time is spent on each registered bank, taking into account which banks are systemically important and which banks are not.
Venda Building Society, VBS, is a mutual bank and not a fully— fledged commercial bank. So, it is governed by specific law.
It suddenly grew very fast from about 2016. Indeed, up till then, it was a good and safe bank, making loans that other banks did not because it focused mainly on making home loans
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to its depositors, who did not own the land they built houses on, but living in a tribal area and had what we call permission to occupy. It was a bravery initiative to give money to such people. So, when this bank suddenly grew very rapidly from a R400 million bank to a R2 billion bank within three years, SA Reserve Bank recognised this as a higher risk and put it under intensive supervision from around May 2017.
The SA Reserve Bank placed reliance on the internal control systems of VBS, including its internal audit unit under PWC and audit committee and its external auditor KPMG to oversee what management is doing. Both the chair and CEO of VBS are qualified chartered accountants and many of its board and management members are CAs, lawyers or professionals. There was good reason for the SA Reserve Bank to believe that VBS was in good hands. Like with doctors who have a proper certificate to practice medicine, they could rely on registered auditors to audit VBS without fear or favour. It was reasonable for the regulators to place reliance on such professionals and systems.
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When VBS experienced problems, the SA Reserve Bank engaged with its management and tried to protect depositors and save it by putting it under curatorship. National Treasury also engaged it when it realised that the bank was accepting deposits from municipalities when this was clearly not allowed by the law.
On 11 March 2018, the Minister placed VBS under curatorship. This decision followed the recommendation of the Registrar of Banks and was taken after months of intensive supervision going back as far as May 2017. By February 2018, VBS was failing to honour its financial commitments and the Reserve Bank was forced to take action in the interest of depositors and in the hope of saving VBS through curatorship. However, such action had been accelerated after the chair of VBS and Vele wrote an open letter to the Registrar on 9 March 2018 blaming the SA Reserve Bank and Treasury for the failure of VBS, rather than the looting that he led and instead blaming a well-organised and powerful system which does not tolerate growing black banks and black excellence. That black excellence can now be viewed as the results of Motau’s investigation that there is no worst manner to insult black
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excellence by allowing it to run a bank in this fashion because there is nothing black about this. This is criminality. This is corruption. This is theft. There is nothing black about it. [Applause.] There is no better way or worst way to insult black people than associating them with these developments. Blacks are better than that.
With regard to the report, the Motau report on VBS is the only fact-based report based on sworn statements from VBS managers and board members. It was made public by the SA Reserve Bank on 10 October 2018. This is the only report we can rely on at this stage.
The report found that the chair of Vele and VBS is the most central character in this whole saga and kingpin in the fraudulent Ponzi—type scheme.
What the report found was that at least 53 persons of interest appeared to have received millions of rands in a manner deemed to be in an unlawful manner. The report finds that the leadership at VBS was unscrupulous and though many of them are professional CAs and lawyers, they allegedly went into a
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frenzy of looting after taking over a healthy bank in 2014. They not only abandoned their previous model of PTO home loans, but provided what they said were off—balance contract financing. This proved simply to be a scheme to loot depositor’s funds and effectively run a Ponzi scheme by targeting municipalities, who they bribed to deposit and maintain their funds at VBS, even though this meant that they would not deliver basic services and infrastructure to their residents.
They showed no regard to the poor and vulnerable victims of their crime and ignored government commitment to transform the financial sector and making a black-owned bank like VBS succeed. Today, the suffering of these victims includes some of the poorest people in the poorest municipalities who were determined to improve the lives of their children and community. This suffering has only been exposed by the speed action of the government and the Reserve Bank. I want to repeat this; these suffering has only been exposed by the speed action of the government and the Reserve Bank.
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The Reserve Bank’s decision to place VBS under curatorship, even in the face of intense criticism by some here and strong lobbying, including from opposition parties that appear to have directly financially benefited, still took speedy action to secure guarantee ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, hon comrades and hon members, the VBS saga is unfortunate and bad, but part of a long list of degenerate conduct in the private and public spheres. This saga raises both conceptual and practical issues.
Conceptually we need to read the classic by the Africa’s great revolutionary Kwame Nkrumah – Class Struggle in Africa. This will help us understand the conduct of the rent seeking petty bourgeoisie, the extraction of value without contributing anything. In a consumerist society driven by shameless greed and mimicking the settler colonial bourgeoisie in whose image the elite is made – get rich quick, loot, loot undeserved wealth become the norm. The VBS just like Steinhoff and others is a wake call that the dominant economic culture and values are inimical to revolutionary morality.
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We need to fundamentally change the economic trajectory, culture, norms and values if we are not to always react to the Malfeasance of the alien class.
At a practical level we join our people in calling for consequences against all those who might be involved in the wrongdoing; from officials to those who wrongly benefited. To the extent that it involves public funds wrongly invested.
Those public entities that defined the rules must be held to account without fear favour or prejudice.
The VBS saga should not be a dent in the collective moral of Africans in the struggle for economic transformation. The cancer of corruption must be fought relentlessly whether in the public or private sector. It is always at the expense of the working poor. Down with corruption, and down with capitalism. I thank you.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Chairperson, hon members, what is the different between hon Brian Shivambu and Duduzane Zuma? We used to say baba kaDuduzane, and today we must say brother
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kaBrian Shivambu. [Laughter.] There is nothing wrong, thanks to the EFF.
Hon members, I watched with horror when the leader of the EFF, trying to protect looters. I am still recovering from the pains of his utter vanity.
Hon Members, why do we have to blame Mr Pravin Gordhan for Brian Shivambu’s R16 million bonanzas, why do we have to blame Mr Pravin Gordhan for the king who deserves his own people?
Hon Julius Malema, you are absolutely wrong. To the King, hon Mphephu, I want to say this to you wherever you are; you have betrayed your ancestors and your people. I advise you to resign as a king. Nothing is left in your conscience but only greed. [Applause.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members, order!
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Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Extra-ordinarily, Chair, I won’t give people platform that is irrelevant but this ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, what is your point of order?
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I just want to check if you would like to preside as a king? [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is not a point of order, I am switching off your mike – please take your seat. Continue, hon member.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Chair, I want to apologise to the House and to South Africans that a brother of a VBS looter still has the audacity and arrogance to educate us whilst he failed to notice his brother’s looting ways. [Applause.]
I want to warn those people who have suffered in Limpopo are our people, and they are poor and not even earning R40 000 or R50 000 like us. Some of them are pensioners. We must have regrets and not be arrogant. We have robbed our people. I
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agree that we must find a way of helping our people who have lost from these looters. But from this one we don’t want commissions. We don’t want commissions, people must be arrested. [Applause.]
You know, it’s just that I respect myself. When I came here I told my family that I am going to exercise citizen arrest, and I was planning to arrest the hon Floyd Shivambu today. [Applause.] [Laughter.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, can he comeback to the podium, we want to raise a point of order, and it will be unfair that he can just abuse the podium and he is walking – it is not allowed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, the first request I would like to make to you is that I am raising a point of order prior to his departure from the podium.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, that is not true.
Mr G A GARDEE: I did, I did, Chairperson, it is true. No sooner than I raised the point of order, he walked away quickly; and it is unfair to us as the House because he has left ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I heard that one, what is your point of order now?
Mr G A GARDEE: The innuendo that flowed from his last remark that he had come here to get the hon member Shivambu arrested. That is an innuendo that goes back to what we have been discussing that did not have to do that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much; I will seek advice on that one.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson, there is a party here and its corruption I would like to talk about. I am not talking about the one in green, black and gold. If corruption was an
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Olympic sport, they would always win gold. So, my rebuttal sheet about them is empty.
IsiZulu:
Siyabazi bona nemali yabantu, ushungamu nescathulo. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
I would like to talk about the ones who come here dressed in overalls and gumboots, and the outfits of ...
IsiZulu:
... omama abahlanza izindlu.
English:
These are people who say that they fight for the poor. But that is a blatant lie. Their only concern is how they fill their pockets ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Van Damme, please take your seat – yes, on what point of order are you rising hon member?
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Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, fair enough, the VBS report which is about 148 pages, nowhere does it refer to the EFF, and for the hon member standing up there to speak about the red overalls party - it’s another innuendo, which is intended to
... [Interjections.] mislead the nation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, thank your very much. What I did not hear is the EFF. Thank you very much. Continue hon member.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Their only concern is how they fill their pockets until they bulge with people’s money.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Van Damme, please take your seat. Yes, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: I have not heard you on your ruling on my objection to the innuendo that the hon member ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You said it very right that it is an innuendo. You are saying it very right. There was not EFF. Thank you very much – take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, there is only one political party that is wearing red overalls.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, if you insist; I will also seek advice on that.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Sorry, sorry, sorry!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Yebo, yebo, yebo.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order? Take your seat, hon member!
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IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo. Bengithi makaxolise losisi wezingubo eziluhlaza okwesibhakabhaka.
English:
Okay, the hon member ... [Interjections] no, no, no.
IsiZulu:
Mina noma thina la asihlanzi umuzi wakhe thina.
English:
We are not ... [Inaudible.]
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Akazange akhulume ngawe, ngiyaxolisa kulokho.
Nk M S KHAWULA: ... uthi nabomama bagqoke ... [Akuzwakali.]
English:
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I am going to switch off your mike. That is not a point of order.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Musa ukuphapha wena. [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members! Hon members, please take your seats, all of you. Please take your seats.
IsiZulu:
Nk H O MKHALIPI: Wena awuzokhuluma la.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Van Damme and hon Khawula, please, I am begging you. We are in a debate. This issue is a serious issue. Let us not play with words here that are going to hurt each other. Hon member on the podium, please check your language. We are in Parliament and are governed by rules. Please, continue.
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Ms P T VAN DAMME: Where is my language? Their access to governments is an opportunity to see if tenders can be directed to their friends and family. Did we really think the corruption would end with On-Point Engineering? Did we really think the corruption would end with Ratanang Trust?
In the same way Mr Jacob Zuma, ubaba kaDuduzane, used his son to amass wealth through corrupt means, ubhuti ka Floyd did the same for his brother and his party. We simply cannot trust this party’s forensic investigative skills, who claim they have checked Mr Shuvambu’s bank accounts and found no wrongdoing.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chair. I just want to remind the hon member that we may have a council sitting in Johannesburg very urgently. [Interjections.] One of those - if she thinks that the EFF have received, let her go and open a case as a responsible citizen. [Interjections.] She must stop blowing hot air here! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Van Damme, you cannot. We don’t any records in this House that says that hon
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Shivambu encouraged his brother. That is what you insinuated. And I think you must withdraw that.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: I did not say that anywhere.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You did.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: I did not!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You did hon member, I just asking you to withdraw.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Please quote it back to me where I said it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, hon member. Are you now challenging the Chair?
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Yes I am ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ushilo lona, makahoxise lento ayishoyo. [Ubuwelewele.] Lalela la sisi wasemakhishini, kusho.
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English:
AN HON MEMBER: Get out of the podium!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member on the podium. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nk H O MKHALIPI: Mhlawumbe awuzwa yile-cut yakho.
English:
Withdraw! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I will go to the Hansard and I will listen to what you said, but I heard you correctly. Please refrain from doing what you are doing.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: She must withdraw, you must withdraw now.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: You are used to being bullied by the EFF; I will never be bullied by the EFF. I am not here on the EFF ticket. The seat on the Chairperson is bullied by the EFF. I am not going to be bullied here.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please take your seat there is a point of order.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you, Chairperson. You correctly ruled that she must withdraw. So, she must follow your order, she must follow the rule. I can understand ...
IsiZulu:
... ukuthi mhlawumbe akezwanga kahle yile-cut yakhe engacacile ...
English:
... but withdraw.
IsiZulu:
Nk P T VAN DAMME: Ngaphansi kwale-cut kunengqondo lapho kuwena akukho lutho. [Ubuwelewele] [Ihlombe.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, listen. Hon member, I did not here what you were saying.
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Ms N K F HLONYANA: Chairperson, I think the problem with Van Damme is that she is busy being a tea girl of the DA people.
IsiZulu:
Nk N K F HLONYANA: Yikho la ekhuluma zonke izinto angazizwa.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Lalela-ke, uyadelela manje wena.
Nk N K F HLONYANA: Hamba uye e-Swaziland. Okokuqala uyakhohlwa ukuthi awuyena walana.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Uyadelela manje.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You are now getting excited and I don’t know what that is.
Ms H O MKHALIPI: You are going to walk back to Swaziland wena. [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please take your seats, hon members! Hon member, I ruled because I
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heard what I heard. But a member has a right to say I didn’t say that. And what I say is that I will listen to the Hansard. I won’t force her to withdraw if she says that is not what she said. Thank you. If it is still on the same matter, I am not going to allow it. Continue.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: We cannot trust this party; it would be like asking Julius Malema to take a stand against the trade of illicit cigarettes. [Inaudible.]
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member on the podium, in this House we have only hon members. Hon Van Damme, I know you are very charged but that is not how you address this House. Can you please use the language that is being used in the House, and call members by the correct name; that is, Rule 84
Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, I rose on a point of order.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I said I am no longer taking orders. I ruled on the matter, and that is final.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Okay, Chairperson ... [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am listening; can you take your seat there is a member on the podium. Please take your seat, hon Filtane.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, the speaker on the podium has been making gestures and remarks to the Chair; that you are being bullied by the EFF; I will not be bullied here. We request that she be called to order. It is unparliamentary to refer to the presiding officer the way that she did.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I did not hear that and I will listen to the Hansard, thank you very much.
Mr C MACKENZIE: On a point of order, if that is a point of order, on which issues? If this is the issue on this matter I am not allowing it. [Interjections.] Thank you, House Chair.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I didn’t say you must speak.
Mr C MACKENZIE: Then I will wait.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Filtane.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you, Chair. I just want to appeal to the male members of the EFF to leave this session to the ladies exclusively. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is not a point of order, you are out of order yourself. Hon member?
Mr C MACKENZIE: Yes, thank you, House Chair. Just referring to the way we address each other as members, not only – constantly our member on the podium has been referred to as she and her. Where else she is the hon Van Damme. Chairperson, with respect you, yourself, referred to the member as she ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): who referred to the member to the member as a she?
Mr C MACKENZIE: Both that gentleman and the hon Maxon.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I didn’t hear that. You should have stood the rules say you must immediately stand up and say what is your point of order – please take your seat. Continue hon member, you have less minutes.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: You must take my minutes back. We have asked the Hawks to investigate the EFF ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. I ...
[Interjections.]
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Who we trust that they would conduct a thorough forensic investigation over the EFF’s accounts, and if wrongdoing is found, an arrest must follow. We hope the Ethics Committee will not drag its feet in investigating the matter of a conflict of interest regarding the R10 million Mr Shivambu is said to have received from his brother.
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Mr L G MOKOENA: Aspersions have been cast on a political party in the House. And there is no mention in the report that is in discussion today that mentions either the EFF or any member of the EFF.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, can I respond. When we talk about a party as it has always been allowed and there was a referral in actual fact she is making reference. Thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, on a point of order,
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member I ... [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: It’s my first point of order, seriously.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is it concerning this?
Mr M WATERS: Yes it’s concerning the EFF, Chair.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member, I am not going to allow. Can your speaker speak?
Ms P T VAN DAMME: You allowed them!
Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chair. The EFF continues to say to the hon Van Damme must go and lay charges. Well she has laid charges against hon Floyd Shivambu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, are you talking from people who are sitting on their chairs, who I can’t even listen to. No!
Mr M WATERS: Yes, and she didn’t cast aspersions on the EFF. There were no aspersions passed she said we have laid charges against the EFF without aspersions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I heard tht one, and there is nothing wrong in saying that.
Mr M WATERS: Exactly. So, what is the point of order?
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Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chair, I think this one is out of order together with the tea girls is out of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, what is it that you have just said now?
Ms H O MKHALIPI: I am saying these two are out of order because this one does not know why she is there on the podium. She is going to walk to Swaziland very soon this one.
IsiZulu:
Nk P T VAN DAMME: Ngizohanjiswa nguwe? Ngeke ukubone lokho.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member that is not a point of order, thank you. Continue, hon member.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: We can no longer have our people misled by wolves in wool dyed red proclaiming to care about them; they must be exposed for who they truly are corrupt eatists.
If the DA was in governance, corruption like VBS implicating the EFF would result in 15 years in jail. When in national
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government, we will fight corruption, create fair access to jobs, make our police service honest and professional.
IsiZulu:
Sikhathele ngabantu abadla imali yabantu bethu njenge–EFF. Hambani niye ejele masela. [Ihlombe.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before you speak, let me say this. There is no report that we have in this House that refers to the EFF as having conducted a heist in the VBS, so that is very incorrect. Can we now have the hon Carrim taking the chair?
Ms N K F HLONYANE: House Chair, on a point of order. On a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m listening. I’m listening. Hon Carrim, please take over. Continue. I have ruled on that matter, hon member.
Ms N K F HLONYANE: She must come back and withdraw, House Chair ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no.
Ms N K F HLONYANE: ... because she just said EFF ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, hon member. No. Continue, hon Carrim.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Wie sê ... wat, wat? [Whose saying what?]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: I’m a little bit concerned about the inconsistency, Chair. A few weeks ago, when we debated the issue of land and when I said that if you ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please!
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... are in possession of stolen land, I was
... [Inaudible.] ... you are a thief ... [Inaudible.] ... every member of the EFF a thief.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please!
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Now, why are we not treated the same when they have received money in their accounts which we know was stolen from VBS Bank?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please! We are not ... [Inaudible.] ... I’m going to switch off your microphone. That is not a point of order. It is a point of debate. Continue, hon Carrim.
Mr Y I CARRIM: Comrade House Chair, comrades and colleagues, it’s not just the allegations of wholesale plunder at VBS that hit you, it’s the crude, reckless, brazen way it’s alleged to have happened. It’s the wanton, breathtaking impunity. But doesn’t this, sadly, say something about our country, about
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the depth and width and range of corruption; and about the urgent need for the Hawks, the National Prosecuting Authority, the NPA, the Independent Regulatory Board for Auditors, or Irba, and other relevant organs of state to act decisively and swiftly, as our committee demanded last week in our statement and as we will vigorously pursue with them on 7 November at our committee briefing on the report and subsequent to that?
We want action, decisive action, soon.
And not just over VBS. No, no. All allegations of corporate corruption. Prime among these is Steinhoff. Yes, yes, Minister of Police and Minister of Justice and Correctional Services – I don’t see either of you here ... [Interjections.] We understand that Steinhoff is a far more complex case: a global player, domiciled in the Netherlands, with its primary listing in Frankfurt and operating in 30 countries around the world with thousands and thousands of documents having to be scrutinised. But, please, Ministers, we can still have more action.
We have written to the Minister of Police in this regard. He cannot interfere in the internal operational investigations,
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but he can, in terms of his oversight role, allocate more forensic and auditing resources to the Hawks, ensure that they act fast – although the outcomes must be determined by them, not the Minister – and we have written again to say that they need auditing and other resources and they must, please, get those resources. The Minister of Finance is here ... we’re pleading - if we are serious about corruption.
So we want action on Steinhoff, on VBS, on private-sector corruption everywhere and anywhere in our country. Often, when they talk about public-sector corruption, there is a private- sector hand at issue.
Comrade Chief Whip, we as the ANC have often been accused of being tardy on allegations of corruption within our ranks, but we have acted very swiftly this time. Let’s have more of this decisiveness, Comrade Chief Whip. [Interjections.] I see the comrade chairperson of the ANC is here in his other capacity. Let this be a signal to our members and anybody, whoever they are, that we are going to be absolutely clear that there is zero tolerance of corruption.
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Mr K J MILEHAM: House Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Carrim, take your seat. On what point are you rising, hon member?
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I’d like to ask the hon Carrim a question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Would you like to take a question, hon Carrim?
Mr Y I CARRIM: I will be responding to his question anyway. In saying this ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is that saying? No?
Mr Y I CARRIM: I’m saying no, because I know what he is going to ask.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The answer is no.
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Mr Y I CARRIM: I know what he is going to ask, and the inane question he is going to ask will be responded to anyway. I have only a limited 6.18 minutes left.
Now, let me clear. Why are we having this debate? We are having it precisely because we want to deal – whatever mistakes we have made – with corruption decisively. That’s why we are having this debate. Now, you see, there those who say that we are having this debate and it is hypocritical. You see, if we didn’t have this debate, they would have said, “You see, you’ve got something to hide.” Now, we’re having this debate and they are saying, “Why are you having this debate?
You can’t have your cake and eat it.”
Secondly, there are allegations made here that, you know, the ANC is behind this looting. Please bring the evidence to us. Bring it to Luthuli House. Bring it to the Chief Whip. Where has the ANC told its members to loot? Give the evidence. The parliamentary committee and the ANC structures will deal with this.
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Now, people say, understandably, “Why do you have this forensic investigation and not everybody is given a chance to be heard?” That’s very reasonable. I have conferred with the technical experts in this regard. Our understanding is that this is not obviously a judicial commission of inquiry, nor is it a court. It is a forensic investigation. They have extracted scores and scores of WhatsApp messages, SMSs and e- mails and the like. And it is for the people whose e-mails conveyed what they did, it’s for the people who have messaged what they did, it’s for the people whose accounts showed what they do, who have to actually answer for that in a court of law. So, everybody is innocent until proven guilty, and let the courts decide.
I must say, I heard you, Mr Mileham. I’m surprised, because, you see, Minister Zwele Mkhize from day one ... In fact, I was telling Comrade Richard Mdakane that I was going to phone him and say, “What is your committee going to do about this?” And then it was in the media. The Minister acted swiftly.
Minister, you did very well. The Minister gave a very comprehensive, detailed explanation of what he has been doing and what’s pending. Only this morning he reported to the
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portfolio committee. Maybe if you were a member of that committee, you would have asked questions there. And he said – if I see what’s in the media – we want every cent back.
Minister, we do.
Now, we are saying that basically it’s the depositors that count the most. And let us quote what our BRR Report says: The committee’s primary concern is that innocent, retail depositors who have lost out so badly ... and urges that everything be done to ensure that as many of them as possible get back as much as possible of the money they deposited in VBS Mutual even if it is over time.
Now, in respect of Mr Shivambu: It is not for us as a committee to decide. The ethics committee is dealing with the matter, we gather, and there are other regulatory and other organs of state that will deal with that. But it is very interesting that Mr Shivambu offered in the committee ... If you disagree with Mr Shivambu or if you come in his way in some or other form, he flings this and it’s nonsensical: “You’re corrupt and so on.” It’s an enormous irony.
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Now, Mr Shivambu himself is facing the same allegations. But he must be heard. However, what puzzles me ... let me say something that bemuses me that is staggering. There are these two parties: the DA and the EFF. They are in tactical alliance, if you want to call it that, in several municipalities. Is there a more inconvenient-convenient alliance anywhere in world history? They hate each other. They absolutely hate each other, yet they love each other when it comes to the municipalities, right? [Interjections.] So, you people are attacking each other, yet you are working together there. Isn’t that hypocrisy? [Interjections.]
Now, there are people who say, “We had nothing to do with VBS. We had something to do at Vele Investments.” As I understand it, Advocate Motau says that it emerges very clearly that VBS and Vele have been operating as a single, criminal enterprise. That’s him saying that.
Now, Mr Shivambu says, and he may be right, that from 2014, astonishingly, the powers that be, the organs of state – I think, it is Treasury and whoever else – knew that this irregular investment was taking place. Yet in the two meetings
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we had over three months Mr Shivambu did not bring that evidence. Hopefully, on 7 November he will bring it.
Secondly, who would you trust? Advocate Motau says various things, including that he doesn’t have any evidence. The forensic ... [Inaudible.] ... all of these organs of state failed. Who would you trust: the independent forensic investigation or Mr Shivambu whose brother is allegedly accused of wrongdoing?
Now, let me put something to you. You see, there is a misunderstanding about what we are saying. We are not saying: Rescue the wrongdoers. We’ve said, Irba ... [Inaudible.] ... the auditors. I spoke to them last week. Hawks, and so on, will be with us on the 7th. We are saying that this is a severe setback however you present it, whoever is responsible. The collapse of VBS Mutual is a severe setback for diversification and transformation of the financial sector.
That’s the overwhelming point.
Now, Minister of Finance, before you decide to resign ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] We are not saying that the fiscus
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must be used to rescue wrongdoers. What we are saying is that actually consideration needs to be given to the services that a bank like VBS Mutual provides; that, if possible ... and we will consider this further when the SARB and the National Treasury come to us on the 7th and explains to us. We have a right as Parliament to ask this question: Why is it that you cannot rescue VBS Mutual, while acting decisively with the relevant organs of state against the wrongdoers, including the auditors - once again, as Thandi Tobias for Polokwane KPMG ... serial transgressors, allegedly.
So, we are right as a parliamentary committee. Until now we hold that if it is possible, within the constraints of the budget and other considerations, if VBS Mutual can be rescued and jettison and deal with the people, we want them in jail. We want them in jail. But we feel that a bank like VBS Mutual has enormous cultural, local, symbolic significance and that is all we are saying, and that is very reasonable to say.
Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, let me start by thanking our Chairperson for explaining very clearly that we are not saying
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wrongdoers must rescued, but we are instead saying the bank must be rescued.
And how unfortunate, hon Floyd Shivambu, when I asked you in two separate meetings whether you are conflicted? I asked you whether there is a member of your family or a friend that is involved in VBS Mutual Bank should not participate in the discussions? You said no. And your brother received a
R17 million gratuity. How unfortunate? [Interjections.]
Also, Mr Shivambu, is it correct for you ... [Interjection.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, on a point of order. What hon Tobias is saying is not a reflection of reality. I did say that I am not conflicted in VBS Mutual Bank and I’ll still repeat it, “I am not conflicted.” It’s a matter of fact that must be placed on record. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I think that is point of debate, it’s not a point of order. Thank you very much. I’m going to switch off your mic; you cannot debate with the member on the podium. Continue hon Tobias!
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Ms T V TOBIAS: Thank you for your protection, Chair. I also need to put on record that hon Shivambu ... [Interjection.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, you know that, that is not correct but you keep on doing it.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: What?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Points of order. I know you are rising on a point of order ... [Interjection.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: It’s not correct? It’s part of the Rules.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I want you to tell me in terms of the Rules why are you rising?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I’m rising under the Rule called point of order which is Rule 92.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, it’s fine but you know that’s not correct. [Interjection.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hayi [No], there’s nothing that is incorrect, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, what’s your point of order?
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: This member in the podium; she can’t come and tell us what was discussed in her committee. So, she can’t do that, she must not use this platform here to abuse us. [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, can we say that’s a point of debate and not a point of order? [Interjection.]
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, you must also tell her not to come and abuse us here because the Deputy Chairperson, hon Mpompo, didn’t ask the Chairperson to come here. [Interjection.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m going to switch off your mic; it’s not a point of order. Hon Tobias, continue!
That’s not a point of order.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Thank you for your protection, Chair. I also need to take the House in confidence that hon Shivambu did not want the bank to be put under curatorship. He instead said we must meet the king; the king who got the gratuity. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member on the podium, can you take your seat? Can I talk to the member first? Hon Tobias, we know that you had discussions but we have here a discussion that you must talk to not the discussion between you and hon Shivambu. Continue! [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member!
Ms T V TOBIAS: Chair, I’m giving you the committee report.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m not sure whether you are talking about a committee report or you are talking about your discussion, can I get that clarity first?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, listen. There is no Report of the Finance Committee before this House. You may howl at me but that is the correct thing. There is no finance report before the House that we should be discussing.
Hon members, can you ... hon ... what is your point of order?
AN HON MEMBER: Thank you ... [Interjection.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, first him.
IsiXhosa:
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Kudala ephakama lo.
English:
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, let’s allow him, he stood before you. Can I allow you?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, it is casting aspersion when you want to attribute things to me, which are not an official report and you want to say that I’m the report. So, you must make a ruling that she must withdraw the aspersions that she is casting on me; because they are not a reflection of reality. If Thandi wants to do that, she must then disclose everything else that she does, the monies that she received to her [Inaudible.] she must produce a statement, you must produce the monies that you received. If Thandi wants to degenerate, she must show the monies that [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I heard you and I think I’ve ruled on that matter.
Before you continue hon Tobias, I insist and if you are not satisfied with this please take it to the Rules Committee. We are not discussing the finance report in the House, we have a
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topic that we are dealing with, which is a discussion for the House. Continue, hon Tobias.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chair, can I address myself to hon Groenewald? Hon Groenewald ...
Afrikaans:
... dit
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you take your seats? She’s going to complete the speech now. No, hon member, please. I’ve ruled on this matter. [Interjection.]
AN HON MEMBER: No, it’s another order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): If that is another order then I have to go to the Deputy Minister first, because he rose first.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, I think there are two critical things which we need to deal with: first of all,
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I’m confused about the difference between insult and political ridicule; secondly, you seem to be exercising authority with regard to what people must [Inaudible.] [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, what’s your point of order?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Tobias is referring to a meeting of the portfolio committee; what precludes her from doing that? [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, thank you very much for that. Hon member, the casting of aspersions in a meeting that was held as the portfolio ... and I didn’t know, she didn’t say in the portfolio committee meeting and that is why I’m not agreeing to that. Hon Tobias, you have less than one minute to speak.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: But Chair, you said it’s me. Chairperson!
Ms T V TOBIAS: [Inaudible.] minutes back [Inaudible.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, they are just like that, continue.
Ms T V TOBIAS: I need to address myself to hon Groenewald ...
Afrikaans:
... en
English:
... when you participated in an apartheid state that killed our people; you don’t have authority to come and speak to us on that one.
Regarding hon Maynier, it’s interesting that ... and I’m happy that our chairperson mentioned it; the Steinhoff saga where they misstated their financial position. The same thing that VBS Mutual Bank has done; and hon Maynier was not so keen to demonstrate his authority over Steinhoff but he’s very keen to demonstrate his authority over VBS Mutual Bank You know why. [Time Expired.] [Applause.] Heads are going to roll.
End of debate.
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Page: 214 MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The Late Mr Mandla Makupula)
Mr D H KHOSA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
notes with great sadness the death of the education MEC in Eastern Cape, Mr Mandla Makupula, on 8 October 2018, in East London Hospital following a lengthy illness;
observes that the 57-year-old Makupula had been the MEC for Education since 2010 and was highly regarded for his performance in both the department and provincial cabinet;
understands that he was a great patriot, a leader, and a hero of the struggle for transformation and a committed democrat who led from the front;
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remembers that he contributed to the liberation struggle and he displayed maturity and exemplary leader in the African National Congress and the SACP;
regards him, for his position and passion for education and dedication for serving the people of the Eastern Cape;
6) acknowledges that Mr Mandla Makupula was a man of principle and a trustworthy leader;
realises that he was a humble and friendly person who treated all people with equal measure of respect and was a dignified leader; and
conveys its condolences to his wife, children and his entire family. I thank you.
Agreed to.
THE WINNER OF THE 2018 SANLAM WORDS OPEN WORLDS, WOW, SPELLING COMPETITION
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(Draft Resolution)
Afrikaans:
Ms V VAN DYK: Voorsitter, hiermee stel ek namens die DA voor:
Dat die Huis —
kennis neem dat Nicole Retief, a Graad 3 leerling van Laerskool Kleinzee aan die weskus van Namakwaland, die 2018 Sanlam WOW Spelfees gewen het;
ook kennis neem dat daar meer as 300 leerlinge van 129 skole deelgeneem het;
verder kennis neem dat die skole die afgelope Saterdag in Stellenbosch bymekaar gekom het om hul spelkragte in die nasionale eindrondte te meet, en;
Nicole Retief geluk wens met haar uitsonderlike prestasie. Ek stel so voor.
Agreed to.
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PEOPLE OF ZAMBIA CELEBRATE 54TH YEAR OF INDEPENDENCE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N K F HLONYANA: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the House -
notes that on 24th of October 2018, the people of Zambia will be celebrate 54 years of independence from Britain;
observes that this marks the end of years of exploitation and abuse under colonial rule;
acknowledges that the people of Zambia, in their struggle and after gaining independence, lived their pan-Africanism;
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considers that for many years our liberation movements were housed, fed and cared for by the people of Zambia; and they did this at their own expense and risk to their lives, with the apartheid security forces killing many Zambians because of this;
recognises that the generation of Africans both men and women who fought and struggled for the independence and self determination of their people;
congratulates the people of Zambia; and
recognises that the need for this generation is to realise its mission of economic freedom in its lifetime. I thank you.
Agreed to.
BEST WISHES FOR 2018 MATRICULANTS
(Draft Resolution)
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Ms J V BASSON: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
notes that the National Senior Certificate examination began on Monday, the 14th October 20l8, for all Grade
12 students across the country;
realises that the 2018 National Senior Certificate examination, comprises of a total of 796 542 candidates, writing the examination across 6888 examination centres throughout the country;
acknowledges that this assessment is a culmination of many years of hard work and dedication by learners, educators and administrators alike;
appeals to the families and communities at large to offer unwavering support to our matriculants by creating a conducive environment for them to study and thrive, in their quest for academic excellence during this exam period;
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trusts that these year’s matric results will surpass that of 2017; and;
wishes the 2018 matriculants well with their exams. I thank you.
Agreed to.
MASSIVE FIRE BROKE OUT AT KHAYELITSHA ONF SATURDAY MORNING
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N SINGH: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the House -
notes the massive fire that broke out in Khayelitsha in the early hours of Saturday morning;
observes that there was one reported fatality and more than 4000 people have been left homeless after hundreds of shacks were destroyed in the blaze;
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acknowledges the efforts of disaster relief agencies and other residents who came in to lend a hand and assisted those who were affected;
extends its condolences to the family of the one known death during this ordeal; and finally;
calls for an investigation into the cause of the fire; and
implores for the SA Social Services Agency to continue providing the much needed humanitarian relief not just at this particular area, and also for the agency and for relevant departments to ensure that they are fully prepared for the imminent fire season. I so move.
Agreed to.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
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notes that Jamal Kashoggi a Washington Post journalist living in the United States was according to media reports brutally murdered in the Saudi consulate in Turkey;
further notes that Jamal Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen relocated to the United States;
observes that audio recordings indicates that Jamal Kashoggi was murdered in one of the most horrific and gruesome killings, many of us have ever heard of; and that, according to the recordings, his fingers were removed, head cut off and body dismembered;
observes that according to the audio recordings, the doctor advised his colleagues to listen to music to ease the tension during this horrific murder;
acknowledges that one of the suspects is the bodyguard of the Crown Prince, Bin Salman - I am not using his first name because he is not worth of it;
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further acknowledges that according to media reports this was premeditated murder and that a Saudi doctor was brought along for the dissection and disposal of the body; and
calls on the South African government to condemn the barbaric murder of Jamal Kashoggi;
further calls on South African government to:
join the international community in expressing its shock and disgust;
support the United Nations independent investigation of the murder of Jamal Kashoggi
suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia; and
reject the Saudi Arabia offer to purchase shares in Denel;
extends its condolences to Jamal Kashoggie’s friends and family. I so move
Agreed to.
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THE COLLISION OF TRUCK WITH FOUR MOTOR VEHICLES IN MOOKGOPONG
(Draft Resolution)
Dr Z LUYENGE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
notes with great shock that death of 27 people who died when a truck collided with four motor vehicles in Mookgopong outside Modimolle in Limpopo, on Friday, 19 October 2018;
acknowledges that a truck travelling along the N1 south lost control on the opposite lane facing the oncoming traffic, and collided with four motor vehicles;
believes that many accidents are caused by human error, and failure to obey road safety regulations;
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pleads with the drivers to always observe, obey and respect road safety regulations to avoid accidents especially as we approach the festive season;
supports the investigations initiated to ascertain the cause of the accident, including the roadworthy status of the truck which is said to have caused the accident;
thanks the ER24, as well as various other medical services, who transported the injured to hospital; and
conveys its condolences to the families of the deceased and wishes a speedy recovery to those injured. I so move.
Agreed to.
OMOTOSO TRIAL HIGHLIGHTS SEXUAL ABUSE CHALLENGES
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C N MAJEKE: I move without notice on behalf of the UDM:
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That the House –
notes the ongoing Omotoso trial as it lays bare and serious sexual abuse challenges facing society in general and women in particular;
welcomes the insightful statement released by the Minister of Women in the Presidency on Thursday, 18 October 2018, instantly covering this and other related matters;
believes that it is the task of this House, the People’s Parliament, to amongst others ventilate, articulate and through proper adoption of relevant laws, oversight mechanisms, civic education and others means, to ensure the protection and enjoyment of human rights by all, in particular women and the girl child;
is encouraged by the unwavering and focused articulation account by Cheryl Zondi of her experience with such violence, even when faced with
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what could easily be considered a hostile cross examination;
calls for the consideration for adoption and implementation, by the Multi-Party Women’s Caucus, together with other relevant state and nongovernmental institutions, of a comprehensive education and support programme targeting all women, including those locked in the rural hinterland; and
further calls on freedom loving citizens of the Republic from all walks of life, such as religious, traditional, political, youth, labour, and business sectors to denounce by word and action all acts of violence against all women and unite for the total liberation of women as part of South African people, persons and nation.
I so move!
Agreed to.
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Page: 228
HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS CONTINUE UNABATED IN BURUNDI
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S MOKGALAPA: I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:
That the House -
notes that the United Nations investigators highlighted that crimes against humanity and other serious human rights violations were continuing unabated in Burundi;
further notes that the report highlighted that the Burundi government, under the leadership of Pierre Nkurunziza, has continued to spread calls of hatred and violence;
expresses its concern that crimes like executions, enforced disappearance, arbitrary detention, torture and sexual violence continue to be committed by the Burundi government;
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further notes that since the conflict in 2015, over
1 200 people were killed and 400 000 people have fled the country;
welcomes the investigation by the International Criminal Court, ICC; and
calls on the South African government, as a mediator under the Arusha Agreement, to support the investigations by the ICC, to ensure that the people of Burundi receive justice and that acts of impunity are accounted for.
I so move!
The motion was objected to.
In light of the objection, this motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.
SRC ELECTIONS AT INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER LEARNING USHER IN EFF STUDENT COMMAND, UPHEPHELA
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Page: 230
(Draft Resolution)
Ms Y M YAKO: Chair, I hereby rise to move without notice on behalf of the EFF:
That the House –
notes the changes that have swept institutions of higher learning with the recent Student Representative Council elections, SRC elections;
further notes that at all institutions of higher learning, universities, technical and vocational education and training institutions, TVETS, and community education and training institutions, CET’s, Uphephela has landed, and is here to stay;
acknowledges that the victories of the EFF Students’ Command are a continued process of consolidation of renewed student power by the EFF Students’ Command since its establishment on 16 June 2015;
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further acknowledges that young people placed their trust in the young leaders of the EFF Students’ Command to lead them;
recognises that the EFF Students’ Command won for the first time in CPUT, UKZN, DUT, UniZulu, University of Johannesburg and Mangosuthu University of Technology;
further recognises that young people of our country who are the future have made a conscious decision to change their destiny; and
wishes all SRCs well as they lead students with clear programs to improve learning, access and transformation in these institution of higher learning.
I so move.
The motion was objected to.
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In light of the objection, this motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, on what basis. How do you object to wishing students well?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please sit down. Please sit down? [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: What is rationality in that? Where is thinking?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I never allowed you to speak! Take your seat!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto):
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Chairperson. Order, Chairperson!
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: I am not certain if the member is new or not, but at a Chief Whip’s Forum we come from the history of objecting to congratulating messages ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is not the correct platform. The correct platform is here. [Interjections.] Hon member, please that is not a point of order. The motion has been objected to ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: In fact, there is no motion that is going to
... [Interjections.] Yes, we are going to object to everything now. Just wait; it’s all right! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t have to control but you can’t debate on the issue of objection? Can we have now the ANC ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson! Chairperson!
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want to object all the motions that came from the ANC today.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We are done with the ones that have passed. You can object ... [Interjections.] No, we are not going to do that!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, we are not concerned very much ... [Interjections.] Can we object the ones that are coming; all of them?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t have to rule on that! It is your decision! Can we have the ANC motion?
PASSING AWAY OF STRUGGLE VETERAN, ERIC ‘STALIN’ MTSHALI
(Draft Resolution)
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANE: House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
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That the House –
notes with great sadness the passing of struggle veteran Eric ‘Stalin’ Mtshali at the Inkosi Albert Luthuli Hospital in Durban, after a long illness, on Friday, 12 October 2018, at the age of 84;
remembers that Comrade Mtshali became active in the trade union movement, organising workers in Durban in the 1950s;
further remembers that in 1955 he assisted in the establishment of SA Clothing and Textile Workers’ Union, SACTWU, as well as assisted in the collection of freedom demands as part of the processes of writing the Freedom Charter;
recalls that Mtshali spent 30 years in exile after joining the ANC, and in 1961, he was part of the Congress Alliance’s group which founded uMkhonto we Sizwe;
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further recalls that Mtshali was also the first editor of The Dawn magazine - the military mouthpiece of the SACP from 1965 to 1969, where he worked closely with slain leader of the SACP, Comrade Chris Hani;
further recognises that he was appointed as a Member of Parliament for the ANC in 2004; and that he served in the Portfolio Committees on Labour, Higher Education and Training, and Human Settlements;
believes that he was a communist till the end, a soldier, a trade unionist and an internationalist;
conveys its condolences to his family, friends and comrades.
I so move!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?
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Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, we send condolences to the family but we object to the optivism! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, are there objections to the motion? I don’t know ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: We send condolences to the family ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, no!
Mr G A GARDEE: Haai, we object!
The motion was objected to.
In light of the objection, this motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.
Mr G A GARDEE: Everything!
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson!
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Carter!
Ms D CARTER: I want to just put it on record, please, that Cope supports the motion! [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): If you have not objected, it was not necessary affirm it, hon Carter, but thank you very much.
PRINCIPAL ENSURES GRADE 12 LEARNERS ATTEND MATRIC FAREWELL WEARING SCHOOL UNIFORM
(Draft Resolution)
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House –
notes that for most Grade 12 girls and boys, the matric dance is all about glitz and glamour and every pupil look forward to the event;
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further notes that not all pupils can afford dresses and suits for the occasion;
appreciates the initiative taken by Mr Eric Sedi, the principal of Iketsetseng Secondary School, to ensure that all his students would attend the matric farewell wearing their school uniform, so as not to discriminate against those students who could not afford expensive outfits;
realises that in order to ensure that this initiative would succeed, the principal consulted the event committee and parents who all supported his idea; and
congratulates Principal Sedi and Iketsetseng Secondary School for their initiative and a very successful matric dance function.
I so move!
Agreed to.
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SUCCESS OF TEAM SA AT YOUTH OLYMPICS IN ARGENTINA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms B N DLULANE: House Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the House —
notes with pride the achievement of the SA Youth Olympics Team, which returned home from the Olympic Games in Argentina with five medals;
further notes that Team South Africa was represented in 19 different sporting codes in Buenos Aires, Argentina, from 6 to 18 October 2018;
acknowledges that triathlete Amber Schlebusch, swimmer Michael Houlie, and sprinter Luke Davids all claimed gold, while rising swimming star Duné Coetzee and shot-putter Dané Roets won silver and bronze, respectively;
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understands that the team’s success is measured by surpassing the medal count from the last Games;
believes that this outstanding performance from Team South Africa will boost the athletes’ confidence for upcoming tournaments; and
congratulates the team for a successful showing at the Games, and for raising the flag of South Africa high.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?
Mr G A GARDEE: We congratulate the team but ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member!
Mr G A GARDEE: ... we object to the motion. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, you either object or you just keep quiet and agree to it.
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Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, we congratulate the team but we object ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, it is not necessary to say that, because the motion was raised by the ANC. Your response is either to object or to sit down and just agree.
Mr G A GARDEE: I have objected but we congratulate the team. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice will now become a notice of motion. [Interjections.] You can’t have it both ways, hon member. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: We are going to object to everything now!
FORT HARE’S FIRST PHD WRITTEN IN ISIXHOSA
(Draft Resolution)
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Ms R N CAPA: House Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the House —
notes that East London high school teacher Nompumelelo Kapa has kept our heritage alive with her PhD – the first in the 102-year history of the University of Fort Hare to be written in isiXhosa;
further notes that Nompumelelo was awarded her Doctorate in Literature at the university’s Spring graduation ceremony in Alice, on Friday, 19 October 2018;
recalls that the title of her theses was “Aspects of Culture and the Humour that Influence Naming in Selected IsiXhosa Texts: What’s in a Name?”;
understands that her participation at the Beaconhurst School as an isiXhosa teacher and her involvement in the Department of African Languages
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at the University of Fort Hare motivated her to take this journey;
remembers that isiXhosa is one of the indigenous languages stifled, with people finding it fashionable to write and speak in English;
believes that this will motivate all South Africans to go back to their roots by respecting their languages; and
also believes that her work will put the University of Fort Hare on the research map.
[Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon Chair, we congratulate, but object. [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I don’t like that line, anyway, and I told you please to just object.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: We object but congratulate. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You can’t have it both ways. In light of the objection, the motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.
PROBLEMS WITH FOSTER CARE GRANT APPLICATION PROCESS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms B S MASANGO: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA:
That the House —
notes the long delays in the processing of the foster care grant;
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acknowledges the high number of orphans who suffer as a result of these delays;
further acknowledges that these delays adversely affect the wellbeing of these vulnerable children and their guardians;
further notes that social workers play a critical role in the application process for foster care grants;
also notes that the current process for applying for a foster care grant is both cumbersome and unfavourable to many potential recipients, who are going without these grants; and
calls on the Minster of Social Development, the hon Susan Shabangu, to urgently resolve the situation and come up with a solution to stave off the vulnerability being experienced by the potential recipients of the foster care grant.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection, the motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.
HOUT BAY FIRE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N MAFU: House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the House —
notes with shock the deaths of two people who died in a massive fire on the mountain slopes of Hout Bay, in Cape Town, in the early hours of Friday morning, 19 October 2018;
also notes that a man and a woman sustained third- degree burns, while another woman suffered smoke inhalation and was treated on the scene;
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thanks fire-fighters for battling the blaze with eight fire engines and three water tankers;
calls for an investigation into the cause of the fire so as to assist in the prevention of future fires, which commonly take place in the Western Cape around this time of year;
conveys its condolences to the family of the deceased; and
wishes those injured a speedy recovery.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are there any objections to the motion?
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon Chair, we object but ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you ...
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... send our condolences.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... thank you, thank you. In light of the objection, the motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, may I rise in terms of Rule 91?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon member. I am listening.
Mr G A GARDEE: The Rule speaks about explanations and we would like to explain our objections. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, the only person who can object is the person ... If you read it correctly, it’s not you. You cannot give explanations on motions. Thank you very much.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, it is in the best interests of peace in this House ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I know what Rule 91 says and I’m not going to waste time by listening to your explanation. Thank you. Can you take your seat?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, it’s not only about the Rule number. If you read it ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No.
Mr G A GARDEE: ... in the context of Rule 92 ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. I know ...
Mr G A GARDEE: ... it states that even the subject of the matter is enough to raise a certain issue. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: May I address you, Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, no. No.
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, we have a right to request to address you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, we are now on ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, House Chair, House Chair, can we call for your attention?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): This is on debates, hon members. You can only explain when we have a debate.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, but ... We want to raise an issue of principle that we are going to table the motion on SRCs, and the ANC must agree. We are going to agree to ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member. That’s not the platform. Thank you. That’s not a point of order. I’m going to switch off your microphone.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: [Inaudible.] If those motions are all tabled properly, we will agree with them.
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TITLE DEEDS FOR FRANKLIN HOUSING PROJECT
(Member’s Statement)
Ms M F NKADIMENG (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC always delivers on its commitment to transform South Africa for the benefit of its entire people, particularly the poor. Thus, the ANC welcomes the handing over of 443 title deeds to beneficiaries of the Franklin Housing Project by President Cyril Ramaphosa on Thursday, October 11, 2018.
In a country where the majority of the population has few assets, home ownership therefore becomes a form of radical economic transformation. It improves the prospects not only for those who are given title deeds, but also for the generations to come. The issuing of title deeds by the ANC government is part of the broader effort to put our people at the centre of service delivery, and a response to the call our people made in the Freedom Charter over six decades ago that:
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All people shall have the right to live where they choose, be decently housed, and to bring up their families in comfort and security.
Therefore, the handing over of 443 title deeds to the Franklin Housing Project beneficiaries is part of the ANC’s historic mission of restoring the dignity of the people of South Africa.
ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR COMMISSION FOR CONCILIATION, MEDIATION AND ARBITRATION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M BAGRAIM (DA): Chairperson, the Minister of Labour and the ruling party have incapacitated the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA. The CCMA has expressed grave concern that without more funding, the organisation runs the risk of not being able to fully implement its statutory obligation in terms of the National Minimum Wage and the Basic Conditions of the Employment Act.
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The CCMA has written a letter to the Minister of Labour two months ago, requesting urgent intervention for prompt resolution of the CCMA’s request for additional funding in the Midterm adjustment budget. The department is unable to carry out its mandate and will certainly be unable to successfully implement the amendments. There will be an increase demand on their resources such as support staff, commissioners, hearing venues and training.
The CCMA has not been able to employ additional staff and nor have they been able to train the staff on the new legislation.
Over and above the negative sentiments sent out to the business community regarding the National Minimum Wage, the government will show its inability to implement it. This will not only discourage and retard the business community but will lead to the enormous unrest and disappointment within the trade union movements. The government must properly capacitate the CCMA and withhold the implementation of the legislation until the CCMA has been able to train staff to implement and enforce legislation. Thank you.
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HOME AFFAIRS’S INCOMPETENCE
(Member’ Statement)
Ms N NOLUTSHUNGU (EFF): Chairperson, every year hundreds of thousands of Grade 12 learners across South Africa write their matriculation examinations. For some, this right is denied, not because of anything that they have done but because they are being failed by the Department of Home Affairs. Only last week, a young 17-year-old in KwaZulu-Natal was on the brink of committing suicide because he still has not yet received his Identity Document. For the past few months the Department of Home Affairs has been sending this young man from pillar to post as he was attempting to get an ID needed to write a matriculation examination.
He is not alone. There are countless other matriculants who continue to be frustrated as they attempt to get an Identity Document. Because of the incompetence and mismanagement of the Department of Home Affairs by the ANC government, they will most likely not be able to write their matriculants examination.
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This is criminal and we call on the Minister of Home Affairs to co-ordinate with the Department of Basic Education to ensure that every matriculant who qualifies to write examinations has access to the necessary documentation needed to write examination. Thank you.
INVESTMENT CONFERENCE TO UNLOCK INVESTMENT, GROW LOCAL ECONOMY AND CREATE JOBS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S H MBUYANE (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC is concerned about the triple P challenge, especially in light of the country slipping into a technical recession. The latest growth figures are a call to action for all South Africans to rally behind the dismal state of the economy. The ANC believes that the incoming Investment Conference from 25-27 October 2018 will help to unlock investment in order to grow the local economy and create jobs.
Included in the list of invitees are JSE-listed companies with a market capitalisation of R3,6 trillion. About 800 to 1000
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delegates are expected to attend the conference, with approximately two-thirds of them being local business people from both large and established companies - emerging investors in South Africa. The conference will focus on agriculture, agro-processing, mining, energy, transport, and water infrastructures, and creative industries such as film and tourism.
The Investment Conference will provide a platform to showcase growth and investment prospects in an economy with vast potential and enormous resources. The conference will send a clear message to the international community that South Africa is open for business. The Investment Conference is therefore a platform where information exchange on actual opportunities between government, local and international business will take place. Thank you.
FUNDING AND SUPPORT IN INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER LEARNING
(Member’s Statement)
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INkosi E M BUTHELEZI (IFP): Thank you very much, Chair. National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas is our country’s only financial line which is extended to vulnerable and poor students with immense potential in education. However, the continual influx which exists within the system must be ironed out in order to efficiently ensure that our students who qualify for tertiary fee exemptions are accommodated and covered fully.
Lies within this system are failing our students who are capable and able to learn and excel in universities and TVET colleges. Students are burdened by hunger, social pressure, lack of resources, ever increasing textbook fees, printing costs and costs for accommodation. These challenges collapse their overall wellness. Those who are predisposed to mental illness and depression fall through the cracks and some take their own lives.
Students at the University of Western Cape have reported to me that they have to attend classes during the day and when their peers are off to relax or further their study, they need to attend to their jobs at restaurants and bars to make the ends
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meet. Students are yearning for support. They require not only financial support but holistic and multipronged approached which will see their overall wellness improved through guidance and mentorship.
We plead today to the Minister of Higher Education and Training to use her expertise and experience to save our country’s institutions of higher learning. Now, more than ever, we cannot turn our backs on the country’s future leaders, thought leaders, thinkers, inventors and entrepreneurs. Thank you.
MENTAL ILLNESS PATIENTS IN PRISONS
(Member’s Statement)
Ms C N MAJEKE (UDM): Hon House Chair, the annual report by the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services, JICS, has revealed problems of overcrowding, suicides and shortage of care for mental illness inmates in our prisons. The report further reveals incidents of death and poor management of inmates who have been diagnosed with some form mental illness.
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For their safety and successful rehabilitation into society, they must be casts separately from the others, yet are treated in the prison are kept with general population of inmates.
It is clear that the situation is urgent and needs to be attended to before we experience another or similar tragedy like Life Esidimeni. In this regard, the UDM suggests that the department must ensure that it complies with all the regulated requirements of managing inmates. For instance, inmates with mental illness especially those who could be declared state patients in terms of the Mental Health Care Act must be transferred to specialised facilities within the stipulated time after receiving notice.
Currently, the report says the interim accommodation in prison pending the transfer of these mentally ill inmates is cruel and inhumane. More collaborative efforts with other state institutions and nongovernmental organisations must be forged. Whilst the country’s correctional services instruments are reviewed for their effectiveness and efficiency in reducing overcrowding, it must also be refined but most importantly to
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reduce crime in general. The most sustainable ... [Time expired.]
ANC WINS NKANGALA REGIONAL ELECTIONS
(Member’s Statement)
Ms G K TSEKE (ANC): Hon House Chair, the ANC is humbled by its good showing in the latest by-elections held in Nkangala Region in Mpumalanga which saw a sweeping victory in both Ward
26 in Dr J S Moroka Local Municipality, with a decisive majority of 72,97%; and in Ward 25 Steve Tshwete Local Municipality with overall 70%. This victory has reaffirmed the decision of the ANC to listen to our people on the selection of candidates which was subjected to the approval of communities as opposed to imposing candidates in disregard of the people they serve. The ANC is grateful to all people who came out once again to cast their votes and entrenching democracy in our country. Despite all the DA’s trimmings and embellishment in Dr J S Moroka Local Municipality, our people new what they wanted to do and they wanted to support the people’s movement being the ANC.
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We thank our communities of both wards for the show of confidence in the ANC and its leadership. We also thank the volunteers, members and supporters of the movement who work tirelessly in the build-up to these by-elections. As an organisation, we do not take for granted the confidence our people continue to demonstrate in the African National Congress and commit to redouble our efforts to continue to strengthen the capacity of local government to deliver even better. Thank you. [Applause.]
ESKOM RATES INCREASES
(Member’s Statement)
Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP): It has been reported that the financial hamstring Eskom is seeking to increase rates by 15% each year over the next three years in a bid to boost revenue and pay off its debts. The ACDP is totally opposed to such increases as we believe that most South Africans cannot afford to pay 15% more for Eskom’s mismanagement. Incompetence and blatant corruption by some Eskom officials has left the utility with costs far outstripping revenue rather than
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imposed another heavy burden on our people. Eskom must find ways to solve its revenue deficit and to recoup the
R13 billion that they are owed by municipalities around to the country.
Further, the ACDP proposes that part of Eskom’s R33 billion loan from China Development Bank be put towards recuperating monies owed to Eskom by municipalities rather than imposing another heavy burden on our people. Thank you.
DESTRUCTION OF TRAINS IN WESTERN CAPE AND GAUTENG
(Member’s Statement)
Ms S T XEGO (ANC): Hon House Chair, the ANC condemns the recent incidents of torching and destruction of trains that recently took place in Cape Town and in Germiston Station in Gauteng. The ANC views this as an act of economic sabotage which affects more than 5 000 commuters, as well as robbing ordinary citizens and the working class of their right to basic services.
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The cost of the damage incurred in these incidents amounts to millions of rands and the ANC government will not allow this act of criminality to continue as such criminal acts deter the country’s drive to strengthen the economy and deliver an essential, reliable, safe and affordable transport system. The ANC therefore fully supports its government intentions of putting in place an integrated intelligence driven multipronged intervention which will be rolled out prioritising hotspot areas. The ANC also calls upon patriotic South Africans to be vigilant and report to the police when they have suspicions regarding cable theft and destruction of trains. I thank you, House Chair.
MINING CHARTER
(Member’s Statement)
Mr J R B LORIMER (DA): Hon House Chair, there is much self- congratulation on the ANC benches about the latest version of the Mining Charter. The Mining Charter 3 has brought certainty, we are told. Yes, but certainty of what and for how long? The answer is that those questions show that this
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charter is very unlucky to open the gates to investment in our mining sector. The blunt truth is, if you want mining investors give away 30% to any new ventures to local partners, that means the venture must be 30% more profitable when a similar project in another country to be competitive. Good as some of our ore bodies are, there are few that will be good enough to justify investors putting their money here and not somewhere else.
On top of that there are quotas for the racial composition of boards of directors and employees, and there are highly restrictive rules about local procurement. The bottom line is more restrictions and less attractive place to invest - that is the certainty that has been provided. Therefore, what we don’t have is any guarantee that the Mining Charter 4 will not appear in five years’ time and will demand 40% giveaway as proposed during later night Twitter by the new Minister of Finance. The ANC talks change to fix the broken economy, but all we get is more of the same.
VICTORIES OF EFF STUDENT COMMAND
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(Member’s Statement)
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO (EFF): Hon Chair, the changes have swept institutions of higher learning with the recent student representative council, SRC, elections. At all institutions of higher learning, universities, technical and vocational education and training, Tvet, and cities “uphephela” has landed and is here to stay. The victories of the EFF student command are a continued process of consolidation of renewed student power by the students command since establishment in
16 June 2015. Young people have placed their trust in the young leaders of the EFF students command to lead them.
The student command has won the first time in Cape Peninsula University of Technology, CPUT, University of KwaZulu-Natal, UKZN, Durban University of Technology, DUT, University of Zululand, UniZulu, University of Johannesburg and Mangosuthu University of Technology. Young people of our country who are the future have made a conscious decision to change their destiny; all SRCs were our well-lead students with clear programmes to improve learning access and transformation into institutions of higher learning. I thank you.
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DA RUNS GOVERNMENT IRREGULAR EXPENDITURE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms T D CHILOANE (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the recent findings by the Auditor –General confirms exposed the fallacy and exaggeration that the DA Western Cape provincial government is the best run government in terms of good governance and the rule of law. The provincial government has been found to have a huge increase in irregular expenditure compared to 2017. In 2017, the province’s irregular expenditure bill sat at
R23 million. However, this year, it has shot up to
R44 million, a 91,3% increase. Furthermore, R33 million of that total figure for this year represents cases of noncompliance.
This finding has also exposed the DA’s double standard of accusing the ANC for lack of good governance, whilst portraying itself as a beacon of good governance wherever they govern. We hope that with this revelation the DA will first clean its house before pointing fingers at others, as talk of good governance and a 91% increase in irregular expenditure
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does not speak of a clean and good administration. Do they? [Time expired.]
ANC-ALLIED PYA WINS WITS SRC
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S MCHUNU (ANC): The ANC congratulates its allied, Progressive Youth Alliance, for reclaiming control of the Witwatersrand University’s student representative council from the EFF students command. They won 12 of the 13 SRC seats for 2018-19 elections. At this fiercely contested SRC elections that saw the EFF student command and the Progressive Youth Alliance, PYA, go head to head, we are of the view of the fact that the EFF student command internal disunity and weakness to focus on serving the students rather than strength has cost them the majority, not even the amount from any bank was able to assist.
This SRC victory at the Witwatersrand campus is the indication that through unity, hard work and the resolute stand to serve the students and transform the institution of higher learning,
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and the commitment to drive the free education campaign to its implementation will ensure that the victory of the PYA continues. The ANC once again commends and ensure that the PYA work harder to bring the confidence of all students. We call upon all PYA students across all universities even in the country to emulate the example of the Wits University in the winning formula. I thank you. [Applause.]
FIREARM LEGISLATION
(Member’s Statement)
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD (DA): Hon Chair, The leaked draft amendments to the firearm legislation have caused utter fury amongst the legal firearm owners of South Africa. Who in their right mind thought to remove self-defense, or protection of another person, as valid reasons to have a firearm license? Is it perhaps someone with a full phalanx of bodyguards? The number of private weapons that are stolen is a minute fraction of the thousands upon thousands of state-owned firearms that somehow disappear each year, are sold to criminals and end up shooting at us and at the police.
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I have never heard of a single member of the SA Police Service, SAPS, who has allegedly lost his or her firearm, being kicked out or arrested or criminally charged. Not one. However, every single time without fail that the crime statistics reach still higher levels – there are now 57 of us slaughtered each day – the eyes of the SAPS top structure in attempting to avoid the blame, target legal firearm owners.
This utter failure of a Firearm Control Act has been nothing but a costly administrative burden that leans on honest, law- abiding citizens. This Act was finessed through Parliament in a manner not seen since National Party days, but as predicted it has failed to reduce gun deaths; is unworkable; overly complex; and has today put legal gun owners on the verge of being declared criminals. Meanwhile the criminals continue to shoot their way to wealth.
The Act disarmed thousands of law-abiding citizens and now you want to disarm the rest. I suggest you take these proposed Civilian Secretariat amendments and shove them under the carpet where the rest of the ridiculous, failed ANC proposals go to die [Time expired.] [Applause.]
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JOB CREATION BY DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
(Member’s Statement)
Ms S R VAN SCHALKWYK (ANC): House Chair, the ANC applauds the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, joining forces with the Productivity SA of the Department of Labour in ensuring 50 000 jobs are sustained and 250 further jobs being created through the Workplace Challenge programme.
This initiative is a joint initiative of the DTI, and the Productivity SA implemented over a 24 months period with the aim to encourage and support negotiated workplace change to improve productivity and job creation.
We therefore urge South Africans not to be misled by opportunistic political parties ...
Afrikaans:
... maar om te besef dat dit net die ANC is wat werklik die vermoë het om die lewens van ons mense te verbeter deur deurlopende inisiatiewe. Die ANC sal voortgaan om dit te doen
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as ons weer die ANC verkies as die regerende politieke party in 2019. Stem dus ANC in 2019. Ek dank u. [Applous.]
MINING CHARTER IN THE MINING INDUSTRY
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: House Chairperson, I want to invite the hon Lorimer, to come closer to what is happening in the mining industry, the chamber has welcomed the charter, supported it and they are happy that we can work together.
Now, the industry and the sector are much co-operating in dealing with the problems facing the industry. So, the investment will come in a stable industry.
It is a pity that the hon Lorimer, did not even come to the Health and Safety summit to witness how the industry is getting its act together. Now, he comes here and represents the chamber and the chamber disagrees with him. I do not know who he is representing, actually. So, I think I am inviting him to come close to the activity in this sector. Thank you. [Applause.]
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JOB CREATION BY THE DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chair, I welcome the statement by the hon Van Schalkwyk and also to say we will continue to work together with the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, to assist and support those companies that are in distress to avoid retrenchments.
IsiZulu:
Okwesibili, Sihlalo ngifisa ukusho kumhlonishwa u-Bagraim ukuthi uma ngabe engazi ukuthi isabelozimali senziwa kanjani kuyofanele acele uqeqesho la ePhalamende. Akangabi nolwimi olumbhaxambili, afike uma ngabe kuphasiswa iSabelomali seMinyango, angayiphasisi futhi angasixhasi iSabelomali seZabasebenzi. Dukuduku, uzokhuluma ngomthetho abawuphikisile bona ...
English:
... when it comes to the National Minimum Wage Bill. And therefore ...
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IsiZulu:
... njengeLungu le Phalamende akalandele imithetho nemigomo yalapha ePhalamende ukuxhasa uMnyango uma ukhala ngokuthi isabelozimali asilingene umsebenzi woMnyango wezabaSebenzi ukuze abe neqiniso emphakathini. Kungathi uma ngabe elapha akhulume olunye ulimi olumbhaxambili. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.
INVESTMENT CONFERENCE IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: House
Chair, I would like to thank the members of the ANC and hopefully the members of all parties for supporting the investment conference which will be led by His Excellency the President this weekend where our country has been putting a compelling case for investment in order to grow the economy and create jobs for all South Africans.
We are overwhelmed by the response from the domestic and international investors. Actually we are oversubscribed for this investment which is good for our country. We believe that
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people have responded positive because we are regarded as the hot market among emerging countries for investment. We have a stable judiciary, we have a good Constitution, we have good infrastructure and we have good logistics. Of course we are dealing with the challenges which are been raised by investors and we have resolved all those current challenges. We hope that at the end of this investment conference ... I hope all the parties will really support and come. At the end, it will create an opportunity for our economy to come out of the current recession and grow in order to create jobs for the majority of our people. Thank you. [Applause.]
INVESTMENT CONFERENCE PREPARATIONS
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I
wish to thank Minister Cwele, because he has covered the first part of what I was going to speak about. However, I would want to add that as the Department of Small Business Development, we have participated fully in preparation for this conference. But even before this conference, as a department together with
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other departments, we were working on a plan and a programme where we need to have R2,1 billion which is supposed to be operational from the beginning of 2019 to 2020 financial year.
This funding targets enterprises that are in the first three stages of an enterprise life cycle as well as innovation based enterprises and therefore this summit that is upcoming, we are hopping the investors would not only look at investing in big projects, but they will also look at investing in small and medium enterprises. We would like to say to South Africans in particular your Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, this is an opportunity for them to look at the results of the conference, but they must also ready themselves for this, because it is one thing for government to give the support and it is another for SMMEs to be ready for it.
IsiZulu:
Laba ke abahlale babanga umsindo, babangumsindo bebe bengenzi luthu kuma-SMMEs, sicela ukubatshela ukuthi mabayeke ukuchitha isikhathi kuma-SMMEs nalabo abahlala phansi kwabo. Siyabonga.
TRAIN DISTRACTIONS IN THE WESTERN CAPE
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(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, we welcome the statement made by the ANC member Xego that condemns the torching of trains in South Africa. We join the member in condemning this act of criminality. Since 2014, 225 coaches have been torched which is 19 trains with 12 coaches ... in fact each which is a full train. Of the 225 coaches torched countrywide, 174 which is 77% were torched here in the Western Cape, Cape Town, at a cost of about R521 million. We believe that we have to condemn this all off us, even Members of Parliament.
Daily passengers have therefore reduced because of the reduced number of trains from 88 to 40 this time around. We have put short, medium and long-term measures to deal with this matter. Firstly, we are deploying armed guards to escort train drivers. We are also deploying drone technology. We are improving intelligence and we are also co-operating with the SA Police Service, SAPS, to deal with this matter.
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Over the long-term, we aim to replace soft and combustible train seats, but also we are accelerating couch repair programme and of course recovery of substations. We have already a budget of R9 billion to be spent in Cape Town alone over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF. We do call on all community members, working together with us and Members of Parliament to assist the police to find these criminals and also to condemn this criminal act. I thank you, very much. [Applause.]
IRREGULAR EXPENDITURE BY THE WESTERN CAPE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair ...
IsiZulu:
... angibonge kulesitatimende esenziwe umama uChiloane. Ngempela sifanele siyikhuze lendaba le eyenzeka eNtshonalanga Kapa le yokuthi kube nokukhuphuka okukhulu ekusetshenzisweni kwezimali kabi ngoba sikhuluma nje ngokutshalwa kwezimali
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nezingqungquthela zokutshalwa kwezimali. Abatshalizimali bazosaba ukutshala izimali komasipala bethu ukuze kube nokuvuleleka kwemisebenzi uma sisebenza ngalendlela ngoba ...
English:
... it questions our co-operate governance capacity.
IsiZulu:
Kufanele siyikhuze leyonto futhi sizaqiniseka njengohulumeni ukuthi siye siyosebenzisana nozakwethu lapha siyilungise lento le eyenzeka eNtshonalanga Kapa.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS
Ms S T XEGO: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates preventive measures to address the looting and destruction of property during service- delivery protests.
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Ms H S BOSHOFF: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the ongoing violence perpetrated by learners against teachers and other learners, as well as teachers against learners in South Africa.
Adv T MULAUDZI: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates how the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, has misled the people of Xolobeni in the Eastern Cape, to benefit an Australian mining company that is destroying human life, the environment and livestock, by constructing a new road in favour of the Australian company at the expense of the Xolobeni community.
Ms M F NKADIMENG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
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That the House debates the expansion of the promotion of the liberation heritage route that honours the heroes and heroines of the struggle.
Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the plight of underprivileged university students who have been failed by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, and the impact of such failure to the broader objectives of the country’s economic ambitions.
Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House debates the scourge of rape and other forms of women abuse happening in some churches in this country, and how those churches can be closed down.
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Ms T D CHILOANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates addressing the challenge of poverty and inequality through industrialising the economy in order to enhance greater levels of economic participation by historically disadvantaged citizens.
Ms C N MAJEKE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House debates the institutional design of our social and justice system with regard to the promotion, protection and advancement of women’s rights, in particular sexual exploitation.
Mr M R BARA: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
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That the House debates the mismanagement of housing lists and how it deprives deserving poor South Africans housing opportunities.
Mr M TSHWAKU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the electrification of all informal settlements by Eskom.
Mr S H MBUYANE: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the creation of inclusive development by advancing global partnerships with the Brics partners based on mutual benefit and openness in order to address common challenges that will bring prosperity to all humankind.
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
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That the House debates the state of our nation, what went wrong and what must be done to fix it.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House debates government’s responsibility to protect all whistle-blowers from intimidation and violence by criminals attempting to avoid responsibility or prosecution for their actions, such as has happened to Vrede Diary Farm Project whistle-blower, Mr Philemon Ngwenya, who was found murdered in his shack at Knelvlei Farm outside Vrede last Friday.
Ms G K TSEKE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates encouraging the private sector to target the youth and make use of youth employment incentive schemes.
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Ms S R VAN SCHALKWYK: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the acceleration of the implementation of a regional industrialisation agenda to ensure Africa becomes a manufacturing and industrial power.
Mr C H H HUNSINGER: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the role of safety regulators with reference to the recent court interdict where the Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, challenged the instruction of the Railway Safety Regulator to suspend Metrorail’s services which were found to be unsafe for commuters.
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Mr N V XABA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates disaster management in rural areas to alleviate the vulnerability of the rural poor during times of crisis.
The House adjourned at 19:32.