Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 27 Feb 2019


No summary available.


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The House met at 15:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed with the Order Paper, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of senior military officers from the South African National War College who took ... [Interjections.] ... Wait, let’s just listen. They took the parliamentary educational tour earlier today and they are also joined by learners from the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, of Joint Senior Command and Staff Programme for 2018-2019. I would like to welcome them on behalf of Parliament. [Applause.]

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In the same breath, I would like hon members to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of Klaas de Jonge from the Netherlands who served in the MK’s special operations unit. [Applause.] Where is the hon Klaas de Jonge? There he is. Welcome to the Parliament you fought for. [Applause.]

Question 1:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker and hon members, the lot and plight of young people remain foremost in our efforts as a country to radically and economically transform our society. As Madiba taught us, I quote:

Overcoming poverty is not a task of charity; it is an act of justice. Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings. Sometimes it falls on a generation to be great

We want young people to become Madiba’s antipoverty generation. Ours, as government, is to help young people


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realise their dreams. In all we do, we must put young people first. The future is theirs to inherit.

We must provide them with the necessary tools to ensure that we unlock their latent talents that will allow them to carry themselves by the weight of their own bootstraps. For we are acutely aware that young people crave opportunities; that they are afflicted by their given family conditions; that they are what they are by mere accidents of birth, born into a social construct that keeps them trapped in conditions of poverty and unemployment; and chained by the accumulated burdens of our past. We are determined to enable the youth to rise by the sheer weight of their talents and determination.

In this regard, Madam Speaker, let me start by emphasising the importance of special measures to support young people and women so that we unlock the enormous resource that is often underutilised and which can help us grow and transform our own economy. Key among such measures is industrial funding to youth and female entrepreneurs.


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I have been informed that in 2015, in this very Chamber, the Minister of Economic Development set a target to the Independent Development Corporation, IDC, to ensure that at least R4,5 billion in funding be made available to women-empowered companies over a period of five years. To date, the IDC has exceeded the target but it has not stopped – it is still lending more to women entrepreneurs.

Similarly, a target of R4,5 billion was set for youth empowered companies over a five year period. We can report that this target has also been exceeded. The IDC funding to women and youth-empowered businesses has also crowded in private sector funding, bringing much needed financial capacity to a new class of South African entrepreneurs.

The measures we are taking, through partnerships with the private sector on the YES initiative as well as our own efforts in government to scale up internship opportunities, are beginning to provide young people with real opportunities, though we must scale these up so that


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more young people and female South Africans are included in the economy.

We are also addressing the structural constraints that continue to impede on participation of more women and youth in the economy. The Competition Amendment Act, which was signed by the President two weeks ago, is just one example of legislation that is directed at increasing participation and investment in our economy.

This law directly responds to the need for a more inclusive economy in which women, young people, small businesses, new entrants and young innovators can enter the market and thrive.

As government, we have recognised that we require a robust process of skilling the nation through targeted investment in innovation, research and development that equally respond to the supply and demand in the labour market so that our country is not left behind in global developments.


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We should therefore see the National Development Plan as the basis or foundation of our approach to this much talked about Fourth Industrial Revolution. This means that our policies, strategies and plans should place young people and employment creation at the centre of all our efforts.

We cannot afford to lag behind emerging global developments and that is why we must engage on a process of continuous innovation, research, skilling of our people - in particular the youth, in order to meet the demands of today’s knowledge-based economy.

Let us be clear in our minds and in everything we do, that the Fourth Industrial Revolution is not a destination, but a reality of the moment. The pace of change over the last few years has largely been shaped by technological disruption and innovation.

Already, there are sectors that are now supplemented by robotics and other artificial intelligence inventions. Simply put, there are jobs that were previously


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considered as vocational but are now becoming technologically intense and require specialised knowledge and skills. We therefore have to keep up with these developments.

It is precisely for this reason, Madam Speaker, that the process is currently underway to appoint individuals to the Presidential Commission on the Fourth Industrial Revolution, as announced by the President in the state of the nation address in 2018. The commission will co- ordinate the efforts of South Africa’s national response through a comprehensive action plan to deal with the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

Having said that let me reflect on some of the programmes led by government that focus on the preparation of young people and women for this new era of the global economy. As government, we recognise the need to make smart investments in research and development which support our industrialisation plan including manufacturing that will lead to the creation of more jobs that we require.


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In this regard, the Department of Science and Technology is investing in a range of outreach interventions that enhance the capacity of young people and women to create employment opportunities for themselves and for others. The Department also supports a number of accelerated training programmes in areas where there are skills shortages.

This includes, for example, programmes providing training in data science and analytics. It also includes the Mobile Lab initiative that provides mobile application development support to youth-based enterprises. Through this programme, the Department of Science and Technology is providing opportunities for young people and women to interact with technologies that will shape our future.

Our initiatives include a network of industrial development centres and technology stations where a large number of the beneficiaries are women and young people.
Industrial development centres are an outreach activity of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research providing product development support to entrepreneurs in


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new economic growth areas such as biotechnology and nanotechnology.

Technology stations are one of the oldest programmes of the Department of Science and Technology where small and medium enterprises, especially youth and women, are provided with a range of technology services including product development and skills development. Technology stations are located at a number of universities of technology.

Through the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services, government is forging partnerships with key industries in the information communications and technology, ICT, to implement programmes that prepare our youth for the Fourth Industrial Revolution. These disciplines include the training of young people in various disciplines related to the Fourth Industrial Revolution. The disciplines include Coding, Data Analytics and Block Chain.


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Our partnership with Google has, since 2017, benefitted

131 980 young people, 58% of whom are female. Through the South Africa Network Academy Programme, CISCO has, to date, trained 150 000 young people and has set aside a target of 15 000 in 2019.

Over the past two years, the Huawei Seeds of the Future Programme continues to expose students to the advanced ICT knowledge. In addition, Microsoft is involved in a new partnership programme in South Africa targeting the training of a million of our young people by 2023.

Young people will be the major beneficiaries of these training programmes. Government is also working to prepare the environment for e-commerce which will go a long way towards enabling small, medium and macro enterprises, SMMEs, to provide services and transact online.

Through its ICT women empowerment programme, that is done by the Department of Communications, government has so far trained 450 women on digital skills to empower them


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with necessary skills required to participate in the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

Broadly speaking, Madam Speaker, government is alive to the changing environment, and has committed to ensuring that key programmes are implemented to align our training and development with the demands of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon Speaker to the Deputy President, indeed the ANC-led government must be congratulated for establishing such an elaborate integrated national strategy that can advise on the development of skills and ensuring that we take care of any future work that comes out of changes that will be made to the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

Hon Speaker, the Economist Intelligence Unit at the international level has ranked South Africa 38 out of very many different countries for our readiness for the Fourth Industrial Revolution.


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Now, hon Deputy President, may you inform this House on what the programme for women would be to advance access to land for them to participate in agriculture and rural economies as an economic opportunity as well as to prepare youth and women and of course workers for the Fourth Industrial Revolution? What benefits will the integrated national strategy have to skills development and future work that would be created?

Deputy President, later in the year, South Africa will be sending a group of young artisans that will compete in Russia. What message do you have for young people as they go to that competition to make sure that they can be successful? Lastly, hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon September, I think you did ask a question already. Thank you very much. Hon Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the Inter- Ministerial Committee on Land Reform will soon be tabling its report and their advisory panel will also do so in


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due course at the end of March. The issue of women and young people in agriculture will be priority as we table that report.

The view from the inter-ministerial committee is that we must open up opportunities for young people and women to enter agriculture and be productive and be supported by government. So, let me not pre-empt that report, it will be tabled.

Our message to young people is that it is their time. They must take this advantage to learn and support their own country. They can only make their meaningful contribution if they are trained and have skills and if they attended schools. That is when they will be exposed to new knowledge on how best to turn our country for the better for all of us. Thank you very much.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker to the Deputy President, I am sure you would agree with me that one of the first and most basic requirements for any


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industrial revolution is in fact electricity - something which you glossed over today.

That being said, South Africa faces a crisis of epic proportions. Almost 10 million citizens are unemployed; South Africa accounts for 2,4% of the entire world’s unemployed population; and we recently became the leaders in youth unemployment – so much for putting young people first.

Now, you have outlined a number of programmes and interventions today, but it is common cause that bad ANC policy decisions and terrible job killing legislation are the real reason we do not have employment in South Africa.

You spoke about some of the legislation hon September mentioned – agriculture. Just last year, this House passed a sugar tax. It has already cost a thousand jobs and it is on a brink of costing another 350 000 jobs. We can’t continue to create jobs and all these programmes


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that you are announcing when you pass legislation in this House that kills jobs.

Can you get serious about stopping the job killing legislative programme when you announce today, to us, in this House that you will review the sugar tax and its terrible effects on the people of South Africa? [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I did not hear the question; it was just a speech, but of course I will try and respond.

South Africa’s economy is a very big economy especially in Africa. It is a very diversified economy and this economy is growing. Therefore, we are bound to have challenges. These challenges are very positive because they propel our growth.

The shortage of electricity is a sign of growth. [Interjections.] If you remember ... It is a sign of growth ... yesterday electricity was only given to a few


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people and today electricity is given to millions of people and it is a sign of growth.

Of course as we grow we are going to encounter challenges of growth but what is important as a country ... if I can go back to the question ... how do we prepare this country for the next revolution that will require skills? The world is more and more gravitating towards technology in order to speedup production and delivery of services. So, we must prepare our young people to tap into technology so that they can start and be innovative. In that way we are going to be better.

I can tell you, without really patting ourselves on the back, South Africa has the best economy in Africa and our children are doing great - our universities are doing great. There is a lot more to be done in terms of innovation and science. This country must invest more and more in research and education. I think we are on the right track. Thank you very much.



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The SPEAKER: What are you rising on?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Rule 142(3), I asked

about the sugar tax and the Deputy President does not answer the question. I asked him specifically about ...

The SPEAKER: No, hon Steenhuisen. Hon Steenhuisen, please take your seat. We will now proceed to the next supplementary question. Hon Rev Meshoe.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker to the Deputy President, the ACDP believes that in order for government to create decent jobs, they should create an enabling environment for small businesses to thrive. Key to this is energy security and policy certainty. Erratic energy supply in our country hampers new investments, economic growth and job creation.

What is government doing to address the lack of jobs for youth and women and what programmes will government introduce to ensure that job creation is not hampered by the absence of energy security? Thank you.


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The SPEAKER: There seems to be a sound problem ... Please proceed.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The sabotage ... [Interjections.] Okay. Well, the problem of unemployment in South Africa is very huge. Government has created some public employment programmes trying to address the low skilled people and unskilled young people that did not have an opportunity to go to school. There is that group of young people that still need to be skilled, to be trained and be given a job. Hence our Expanded Public Works Programme.

Of course, universities and our TVET colleges are training young people on vocational skills that are required by our economy. These TVET colleges are really training and are partnering with industries so that from time to time those young people who are in these colleges are exposed to the world of work. They do their internship there.


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I am sure that our training is going to be up scaled gradually and those who are at universities ... you can see the enrolment is shooting up, that means more and more of our young people are now taking keen interest in education and that would make their chances of finding a job better.

The question of unemployment is a reality which we must all grapple with; it cannot be a problem of government alone.

We agree that SMMEs are very important in any economy. That is a base of any economy. They are very important in giving those two, three, five jobs. It is important for government to support SMMEs. In this very government that is led by the ANC, a Department of Small Business Development was created with the focus of supporting small-medium enterprises because we are aware of its importance.

These five or 10 jobs are very important. Now, over time, we have realised that there are constrains that are


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surrounding SMMEs hence the amendment of the Competition Act. There are monopolies in our economy that are closing space for SMMEs to produce and this Competition Act that has been signed is very important to open that space for them to flourish.

Opening space for SMMEs will also assist in job creation because they will employ people but it will also assist in strengthening our economy, expanding our revenue base as government; because those SMMEs will pay tax then our tax base as government is going to increase.

Definitely, all efforts are geared towards fighting unemployment and supporting SMMEs but in the process the world is changing. The way SMMEs are producing goods and services must also change - they must be fast and they must be supported technologically so that they move with time. That is very important. Thank you very much.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker to the Deputy President, Bonang Mohale who is a CEO of BLSA, had this to say after the budget of the Minister of Finance, and I quote:


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Despite the allocation in the budget of R19.8bn for industrial business incentives and R481.6 million to the Small Enterprise Development Agency to expand the small business incubation programme, we would like to see a more detailed sector focus to remove barriers to market entry of SMEs and reignite President Cyril Ramaphosa’s commitment to revitalising township economies.

Now, Mr Deputy President, you have alluded to structural impediments or inhibitors preventing the youth and women to entering the business sector or the job market. What are these structural impediments? How far has the government dealt with them and from such, what specific lessons have you learned? Have you found the interventions to be helpful to the youth and women? Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, I hear there are three questions in that. So ... go ahead hon Deputy President.


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, from the time I joined Cabinet I was fortunate to be part of a discussion where we were discussing the Competition Amendment Act. I realised that this Act is very fundamental in opening opportunities for those who want to enter into business.

It is very important to breakdown monopolies. Every product that we are buying as South Africans belongs to a conglomerate, a monopoly very difficult for emerging SMMEs to enter the market. So, as government we must break those barriers, allow new entrants into the economy and those new entrants must be protected.

So, that is my experience. Hence the emphasis is on small businesses and removing the impediments that block them from entering the economic space. I chose to answer that question and not the rest of your questions. You are only entitled for one question. [Applause.]

Question 2:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, this question is coming up for the second time within a period of a year


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and I am sure it demonstrates the importance and gravity of this matter.

We must state at the outset that all members of this House and those who have been appointed to the executive have a constitutional obligation to represent the interests of the electorate, and to be accountable to the the people in the execution of their responsibilities.

That is why, in our response in April 2018, to a similar question, we assured this House that mechanisms were introduced at the level of the executive to ensure that Cabinet colleagues do honour their responsibilities to this House. And where they are unable to attend members’ statements and oral question sessions for whatever reason, such should be communicated in good time to the presiding officers.

Hon members, Ministers and Deputy Ministers are well aware of the National Assembly Rules that govern questions for oral and written reply. I wish to reiterate


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that many of the Ministers and Deputy Ministers do make every effort to ensure that they comply with these Rules.

There are instances where members of the national executive do not fully comply, by either not submitting written replies or submitting written replies after the stipulated deadline.

In such instances, we look forward to the implementation of National Assembly Rule 136(1), which provides that the Speaker must, in consultation with the Rules Committee, establish a system to monitor and report regularly to the House on questions that have been endorsed as unanswered on the Question Paper; and that the Leader of Government Business must be informed of any steps taken in respect of any member of the executive in giving effect to the monitoring of replies.

With regard to the attendance of Ministers and Deputy Ministers, I furthermore, on a regular basis, remind all my colleagues to attend members’ statements and oral sessions in this House. I was very happy yesterday, when


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we had a contigent of nine Ministers, six Deputy Ministers throughout the session, as we were dealing with members’ statements. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, thank you for the response. In any institution, the tone is always set from the top. I am sure you will agree with me on that. In the last session of this Parliament of 2018, you were absent for three of your oral question sessions in this National Assembly. [Interjections.] These sessions are not only a requirement in terms of our Rules – you quoted very extensively from them - but they are also a constitutional requirement, in terms of section 92(1) of the Constitution, which says that you and your Cabinet colleagues are accountable collectively and individually to this House for your actions.

Now, I am sure that you would agree with me that it sets a very bad tone to Ministers and Deputy Ministers when a senior office bearer such as the Leader of Government


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Business misses three of his oral question sessions, denying us the opportunity to hold you accountable.

The reason we were given by the Presidency in Parliament was that you were ill. So, imagine our surprise when a few days later, a spokesperson in your Office said that you were not ill, but that you were in fact on sick leave in Russia.

So, can you take the House into your confidence today about why you missed those sessions at the end of last year? Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: I rise in terms of Rule 92. There is a personal reflection in terms of the person of the hon Deputy President. Yes, it is that the Deputy President was absent for this number of meetings and reasons were given, but the whole substance of it is a personal reflection. We suggest therefore that ... [Interjections.] May we be heard? And the opposition must be patient. We suggest that, if there is anything against the good name of the hon Deputy


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President, it be done via the correct channel of a substantive motion, failing which, the point is no longer an issue about a follow-up question to the question on the Order Paper. We suggest that you give a ruling or a considered ruling, with due respect.

The SPEAKER: I intent to check the exact words that hon Steenhuisen used and come back on that particular matter that you are putting forward. However, I do agree that if there is any reflection on the character of the Deputy President, that it be submitted in the form of a substantive motion. I will now allow the hon Deputy President to reflect, in the best way he can, on what has been put to him.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, it is correct. I was not in this House for three occasions when I was supposed to be here. [Interjections.] We communicated to the House our apologies, in due course, that we will not be available to be present in the House.


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In the first instance, I had to undertake medical treatment in Russia. [Interjections.] I said so in this very same House that I undertook medical treatment. If any need arises, I will continue to do so for the sake of my health. [Interjections.] [Applause.] I will.

Now, in the other two instances, I had a meeting with all the heads of state that are responsible for the South Sudan peace process. It was a meeting that was pre- arranged and I could not absent myself. I was supposed to subject myself. These leaders of these different countries, Sudan, Uganda, Kenya, and Ethiopia made themselves available for this meeting. So, I had to attend and I gave an apology. [Applause.]

With regard to the third occasion, I received a message from the President that the Prime Minister of France is coming to the country and that I must prepare myself to receive him. [Interjections.] I indicated as such. Later, on the very same day, the Prime Minister was supposed to arrive. We got a message that he is no longer arriving.


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So, those were the three occasions and really, it is not our intention to undermine the House. We will not do that deliberately. The House must understand that in certain instances, we have certain duties that we perform outside this House. [Applause.] Thank you very much.

Ms L M MASEKO: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, thank you very much for your response and the efforts that you have made to ensure that Ministers are accountable to this House, as you have explained in your response.

Our understanding of the role of members of the executive is service delivery to the people and to attend to other broader responsibilities delegated to them by the Constitution and the President who appointed them – be it inside and outside the country - notwithstanding their accountability to this House and the people of the Republic.

Questions to Ministers are supposed to be educative. It must articulate government’s policy and ensure implementation, service delivery and many other things


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they are expected to do. So, don’t we need to look at the quality instead of the quantity of those responses, expecting Ministers to attend each and every sitting of this House, when they have other delegated responsibilities? [Time expired.]

The SPEAKER: By the way, you did not ask a question. I will allow you to ask a question. [Interjections.]

Ms L M MASEKO: Don’t you think that we should be more qualitative than quantitative with regard to expectations of the questions that are asked to the Ministers, and not expect Ministers to be here each and every day for a sitting?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I think, as Cabinet, we have agreed that, in any given time and moment, there should be a presence of Ministers and Deputy Ministers in the House. So, we have arranged and organised ourselves in terms of clusters of Ministers who will be in the House, on a particular day. All Ministers and Deputy


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Ministers cannot be in the House because we have a government to run. [Applause.]

However, there should, at any given time, be a presence of Ministers and Deputy Ministers in the House. So, we have agreed that a certain cluster will attend on a particular day and deal with those responsibilities in this House. And on another day, another cluster will come, so that we allow these Ministers to do their work. They are supposed to service the country. [Applause.]

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Speaker, Deputy President, one of the Ministers who is most notorious for not responding to any questions or any letters that are written to him is Minister Pravin Gordhan. [Interjections.] His arrogance and ...

Mr P J MNGUNI: Speaker, on a point of order: There is no way ... I rise in terms of Rule 92, but also with reference to point 85 that we may never allow that a Minister is referred to in this a manner - notorious. Hon


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Gordhan is a ... [Interjections.] You have said ... The point of order ...

Ms H O MKHALIPI: So, what is the point of order? So, please man, wena [you]. [Interjections.] You are bored wena [you], man.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, there must be no debating across the floor. [Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Yes, he is out of order. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: There is a point of order and I am listening to it, hon Mkhalipi. [Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Speaker, why are you allowing him? He is not saying anything. Why are you allowing this guy?

The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhalipi, I have the right to decide to allow or not to allow. Please, take your seat and continue listening to the point of order.


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[Interjections.] Hon Deputy President, you are also allowed to take your seat.

Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon Speaker, in terms of the Rules of this House, we do not accept, nor can we allow ... We ask you to rule on the statement just uttered by the hon member to say that the hon Minister Pravin Gordhan is notorious. We reject that and request that you ask her to withdraw it.

The SPEAKER: I will double check the extent of any wrongness about the word “notorious”. [Interjections.] Just finish off your point, hon Mkhalipi.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Speaker, his arrogance and his belief that he is untouchable make him believe that he is a de facto Deputy President, undermining you ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon member!


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Ms H O MKHALIPI: ... doing as he pleases, purging qualified black engineers from Eskom. What are you going to do to make Minister Pravin Gordhan and others like him account to Parliament? What do you make of the perception out there that Minister Pravin Gordhan has in fact taken your powers as the Deputy President? Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhalipi, you are not allowed to repeatedly throw attacks to a hon member of the House. [Interjections.] Make a point and take your seat. [Interjections.] You cannot just continue taking a chance to attack a Member of Parliament. Please, take a seat.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Speaker, I am done. I did not attack anyone. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION: Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member has cast aspersions on Minister Gordhan, which should be withdrawn. You may very well wish to study Hansard, but we all could hear very clearly. The point I wish to stress is that it has become practice for these hon members to attack Minister Gordhan


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in a most unparliamentary and derogatory fashion. [Interjections.] They have been allowed to continue doing it by presiding officers of this House. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhalipi, take a seat. Please.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Speaker, can I rise on a point of order?

The SPEAKER: No, allow me to finish with the issue that I am dealing with. I will consult Hansard, as I have said and I will come back and rule on this matter. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy President, I don’t know if you want to say anything.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Speaker, on a point of order: There is nothing unparliamentary that I have said here. I am protected by the Rules.

The SPEAKER: Hon Mkhalipi, please take your seat.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, on the question of Minister Pravin Gordhan acting as the Deputy President, I


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think it is incorrect. I am the Deputy President, until otherwise. [Applause.] When I look at Minister Pravin Gordhan, he does not have any appetite to become a Deputy President. [Applause.] He does not.

About the communication that you had between yourself and Minister Pravin Gordhan, that he is not responding to your correspondence and all that, I would like to be cited. If you really want me to intervene, I want to be cited on this because we hear these things out there.
However, correctly, in the House, there are certain procedures that are followed if you are really dissatisfied about a Minister not responding. The Speaker is here. [Interjections.] I am sure that hon members will always respect one another in this House. You are very honourable, so we must be honourable in the way we do things. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Madam Speaker, maybe I pressed prematurely; I pressed for the next question. I am sorry.


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The SPEAKER: In that case, hon Steenhuisen, did you also press by mistake?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, no, I would never miss an opportunity to press on purpose. The problem with the Deputy President’s reply about these issues that came up, like the visit to this French President, etc, and the responsibilities that he gets at the last minute, and the explanation that he has given is that, as you would know, Madam Speaker, the programming committee decides on the slots for the Deputy President’s attendance in the House by consensus with his own office, way in advance. So, it is simply not right for him to say that he has other commitments that occur. [Interjections.]

Can the Deputy President indicate to us whether he is going to consider implementing financial fines for Ministers who don’t attend when they are supposed to attend without proper excuse? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am given another responsibility, as an individual, to stand up and say: I am now fining


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you for not attending. I have not thought of that. [Interjections.] Maybe I will think about it, but I have not. What must I do with you if you are not ... [Interjections.] You are not a member of the executive, so you are free to do as you please? It is unfair. [Interjections.] It is unfair. Thank you very much.

Question 3:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, as you may recall, in his 2019 state of the nation address a few weeks ago, the President identified five tasks that will underpin everything we must do as government this year.
He indicated that our history demands that we should improve the education system and develop the skills that our country needs now and in the future.

In this regard, the President indicated a significant policy intervention in the area of education to reflect preparation and adaptation to the demands required by the Fourth Industrial Revolution. To achieve this, the country needs to implement a multi-pronged approach that focuses on: The realignment of the curriculum at basic


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education level to prepare our learners for the changing world, and introducing requisite infrastructure and information communication technologies to support learning and teaching; implementing targeted interventions at higher education level to respond to changing future industry needs in the age of the Fourth Industrial Revolution; partnering with the private sector to ensure that training and skills development programmes produce the necessary relevant skills that are needed by the economy; and investing in research and innovation to drive industrialisation in a changing world. In this instance, our universities must play a leading role.

In line with the government’s Framework for Skills for a Changing World, training of both educators and learners will be expanded to respond to emerging technologies including the internet of things, robotics and artificial intelligence. Several new technology subjects and specialisations will be introduced, including technical mathematics, technical science, maritime science, aviation studies, mining science, and aquaponics or the


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combination of aquaculture and hydroponics, to name a few.

To expand participation in the technical streams, several ordinary public schools will be transformed into technical high schools. More importantly, government will continue to invest in the necessary learning infrastructure and information, communication and technology.

As hon members would know, the President articulated that over the next six years government will provide every school child in South Africa with digital workbooks and textbooks on a tablet device. Already, 90% of textbooks in high enrolment subjects across all grades and all workbooks have been digitised. Those schools that have been historically mostly disadvantaged and are located in the poorest of our communities, including multigrade, multiphase, farm and rural schools will be the first recipients of these devices.


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At the tertiary education level, government, through the Department of Science and Technology, makes a major investment in the training of Masters and PhD’s in the full range of technologies that underpin the Fourth Industrial Revolution. This includes artificial intelligence - as we have said - robotics, cybersecurity, additive manufacturing, blockchain, internet of things, biotechnology and nanotechnology. Such programmes will enable talented young people and women to help shape a human-centred Fourth Industrial Revolution.

The Department of Higher Education and Training is also in the process of pulling all Ministers who are involved in the Fourth Industrial Revolution Ministerial Task Team with expert participation from academia, industry, innovation and research, as well as from government departments such as the Departments of Trade and Industry, Basic Education as well as Science and Technology will be looking at implementing all these innovations.


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In 2019, the Tvet College system is focussing on updating all the technology-related curricula with the introduction of updated curricula in areas such as information processing, advanced multimedia and online technologies. From January 2020, updated curricula will include the internet of things as a significant part of the Life Skills curriculum in the National Certificates or vocational qualification, with further revisions in Information Technology and Computer Science programmes, which will equip students to engage in problem-solving solutions using technologies that are easily and readily available.

A major part of the preparation for the delivery of the updated curricula will involve the training and upskilling of lecturers to deliver this curriculum.
Therefore, we remain acutely aware that as an entire industry adjusts, many occupations are undergoing a fundamental transformation. While some of the jobs are threatened by redundancy and others grow rapidly, existing jobs are also going through a change in the skill sets that are required to do them.


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However, the nature of the labour that is required is likely to be more skill-intensive and knowledge-based, which could exacerbate the structural unemployment programme when combined. We therefore need to keep up with global developments in the information and technology space in order to make the right policy choices at the right time.

Finally, we believe that the work of the Commission on the Fourth Industrial Revolution will provide further guidance on how, as government, we can address the issues relating to the massification of skills at society level, curriculum innovation at school level, digital literacy, re-skilling the youth and the development of innovation capabilities. Thank you very much.

Ms N V MENTE: Deputy President, I listened to your first question. It was more or less the very same question, and the promises that you are making now in answering this question. Number one, you speak of the Microsoft relationship you have which will kick-start in 2023. Now, you are giving us promises of information loaded on


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devices which will be delivered to schools in 2020 and 2021.

Let me give you the current status. The current status is that 15 000 schools do not have computers; 14 000 schools are not connected to internet; and only 452 teachers are competent in technology. Now, you speak of the imbalance between the skill and what the job market is looking for. Currently, we have the imbalance of technology-competent teachers and what you are saying you are going to give.
When are you going to skill the teachers? How many are those devices? When are you going to connect the 14 000 schools? Is that going to happen this year before you deliver the devices? Thank you, Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure all the interventions that I have mentioned will not happen overnight. It is going to be a process of reskilling your teachers, updating your workbooks, and introducing – as I have said
– some of the workbooks which have been digitised. Some of the schools in Gauteng are already using tablet devices. So, this is a process. We should not be


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frustrated about it as it is in motion because the nation is in motion. We are developing as a country and it is going to happen step by step. All of us will finally arrive. Our learners, schools, universities and industry must adapt to this changing environment so that we can continue to grow our own economy and prepare our people, who are the human resource that must drive this economy. Thank you very much.

Prof B BOZZOLI: Hon Deputy President, I was a bit worried the other day when I went in the lift with an ANC MP who asked his friend when the Fourth Industrial Revolution is starting. What this brought on to me is the level of ignorance ... [Interjections.] ... not only in our society but among our MPs. One of the areas of the greatest ignorance is that the Fourth Industrial Revolution is not necessarily a good thing in that enormous jobs are going to be lost as it takes hold. In fact, that is the biggest concern of people in most societies about the Fourth Industrial Revolution.
Therefore, you can’t just gloss over this by saying, oh well, you know, there’ll have to be some reskilling. It


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is a very serious challenge. Many of the things you have mentioned are actually more about the Third Industrial Revolution than the Fourth, which was about IT and the economy. So, how do you define the Fourth Industrial Revolution? How does the ANC define the Fourth Industrial Revolution? How does it differ from the Third Industrial Revolution and what will you do about job losses? Thank you. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I take it that this is really a new question. I am now called upon to define the Fourth Industrial Revolution. I think we are now deviating but, well ... [Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: Answer the question.

The SPEAKER: Order, hon member!

Prof B BOZZOLI: Does that mean you don’t know the answer?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, a revolution in any given period is defined as the way we do things in that period.


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If we talk about a skills revolution, IT and technology, the essence is that the way we do things and produce in our economy is going to change, influenced by factors that emanate from technology. For instance, in the automotive industry, as we assembled cars we used to have human beings in the assembly line who were assembling the cars. Of late, we have robotics that assembles the cars. That means in the economy, from time to time, we change the way we produce. Therefore, it requires that ... [Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: This is your Deputy President. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... people must go with the change. People must be ready to assimilate the change. People must be ready to move with the change. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! We need to hear what the Deputy President is saying. [Interjections.]


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am answering you. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, please respect the rest of the House. [Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: Easy, easy!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If I am not helping you with your own definition, we should probably leave it at that. [Interjections.] [Applause.] If I am not helping you to define a revolution, then I can say, as far as our preparation for the Fourth Industrial Revolution are concerned, we are in that revolution as we speak because we are changing the way we do things and prepare our learners to change. Thank you very much.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Mr Deputy President, let’s say we are dealing with South African learners. In the past I indicated that we have some people or youth from other African countries who come here but they are skilled.
Within policy, at what level perhaps would you wish to


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see our African learner vocationally and technically equipped to start his or her own business in case he or she were to drop out of school? I am saying this because there could be other factors militating against his or her progress to continue with schooling. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can you repeat your question? [Laughter.]

Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy President, we have a South African learner whom we are equipping and giving skills. It may happen that on the way he or she drops out. At what level perhaps would government wish to see the learner equipped in case the child were to drop out of school to start his or her own business?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It would be a very difficult question to answer in terms of the level. This is because a learner can exit the system depending on the number of skills he or she has acquired. For instance, I can leave school at level N2, N3, N4, N5 or N6 but still, at a


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particular time when I leave, I’ll have the skill that can help me do something. So, it depends on the affordability of that learner. He or she can stay in the system until level 6 or 3 but he or she can still have a skill that enables him or her to work. That is why I am saying the question is a little bit difficult. I can do a junior degree and continue my studies to master’s level or doctorate but that does not mean, if I have a junior degree specialising in something, I cannot exit. I can exit and do work gainfully. Learning is a life-long process; and you learn as you go.

Ms J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, my question to the Deputy President by way of introduction is that hon President, it appears that the Third Industrial Revolution has not always prompted the DA in the Western Cape to take action where schools were totally uninhabitable. I had a recent experience with Queenspark where we had to drag in the administration because the school building posed a risk to the learners. That brings me to the question regarding how we should adjust our school curriculum.


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Professor Sarah Gravett from the University of Johannesburg recently published an article about critical skills necessary and how we should adjust our school curriculum, going forward. Hon Deputy President, could you perhaps give us an indication and elaborate further on how government sees the balance between knowledge- based and skills-based to negotiate the uncertainty of the new future that we are facing notwithstanding the fact that it has started. Sometimes I think there are also individuals who enjoy ... [INAUDIBLE.] Think back at Y2K. It was a big scare but we are in it already. Thank you. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t think we can separate skills revolution and knowledge-based revolution. These two are intertwined. For you to have a skill, you need a certain amount of knowledge. For you to do a particular job, you need a certain amount of knowledge and skill.
So, we have to change the curriculum to allow our learners to adapt. For instance, when I was at school I did maths and not arithmetic but we are now talking about mechanical maths which is a bit different from both maths


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and arithmetic. However, in learning this mechanical maths I am preparing myself for a skill. So, you can’t divorce the two. Thank you very much.

Question 4:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker and hon members, the whole continent of Africa remains at the heart of South Africa’s foreign policy, which attaches particular importance to the African Union, AU. During the meetings of the AU’s various organs and subsidiary bodies, South Africa has strived effectively to promote the AU’s shared vision as encapsulated in its Agenda 2063. Among others, Agenda 2063 commits the continent to silence the guns by 2020 in order to realise Africa’s socioeconomic development trajectories.

This is aimed at making peace a reality by ending all wars in Africa by 2020. South Africa remains committed to work with other African governments to support the work and the mandate of the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in its monitoring and enforcement of decisions on the advancement of human rights and


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democratic governance in the continent. The promotion and protection of human rights is also one of the fundamental obligations as enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

South Africa also has an obligation to honour its commitment to the implementation of the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights and other international treaties. The African Union Constitutive Act discourages unconstitutional changes of government. The African Union’s desire to promote good governance in Africa manifests itself in the establishment of the instruments such as the African Peer Review Mechanism and the legal frameworks such as the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance.

South Africa’s involvement in the South Sudan peace process has been undertaken as part of our country’s commitment to make a meaningful contribution to finding African solutions to the African problems and ensuring that the creation of a peaceful and prosperous continent. In this regard, as the President’s Special Envoy to South


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Sudan, we held several consultations with the leadership of the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, Igad.

This included holding bilateral meetings with the Heads of State of Ethiopia, Kenya, South Sudan, Sudan and Uganda, where we exchanged our views on the required contribution to be made to ensure long-lasting peace and security in South Sudan.

Hon Speaker, in this regard, we must commended the contribution that has been done by the Igad leadership in facilitating the various stages of this peace process, including the signing of the Revitalised Agreement on the Resolution of Conflict in the Republic of South Sudan which was signed on 12 September 2018.

Furthermore, we emphasised South Africa’s position regarding the need for the people of South Sudan to be allowed to engage in a dialogue in deciding their country’s future and that efforts by external actors should be geared towards providing the necessary


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resources and support needed to ensure successful implementation of this agreement.

One of the key issues that are being raised is providing support to the South Sudan government and all the signatories to the agreement in terms of resourcing of all committees and structures provided for in the agreement.

Hon members would be aware that in terms of the agreement, the transitional government will come into effect in April 2019 and that will pave the way for the drafting of a new Constitution and holding of democratic elections. These processes require both financial and human resource support, as well as humanitarian assistance.

South Africa has committed itself to walk this journey with the government and people of South Sudan. We are pleased that the warring parties in the South Sudanese People’s Liberation Movement have finally found each other and have recently signed a reunification agreement.


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This will bring the much required cohesion in that country. So, our intervention and that of the Igad is starting to bear some fruits.

In the coming few weeks, we will be sending a consignment of humanitarian assistance under the auspices of the African Renaissance Fund, but that would be the contribution of South Africa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Nom M S A MASANGO: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo. Ilanga le-8 May lenza bonyana abogalajani ingathi khebathi rhamu itlhodlha nonotlabalala. Bahlangene iinhloko. [Isithikamezo.]

Mshengu, siyathokoza umsebenzi omuhle owenze e-South Sudan wokubasiza ukurarulula umraro wezepolitiki. Umbuzo enginawo kukobana njengabazenda abakhethekileko [i- Special Envoy] ne-African Union, nizokwenzani nanyana ngiliphi igandelelo enizolenza ukobana uburholi loba


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buhloniphe iimvumelwano zombanganarha ezitlikitlwe etafuleni?


Respect for the sanctity of the agreements. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, it is a very critical question, because as we are speaking we are speaking about a Revitalised Agreement. That means the first agreement collapsed and we had to come again and revitalised that agreement.

From our observation the divisions were too intense and they were running deep. Tribal conflicts were running deep. Tensions between the warring parties were running deep, but what is encouraging is that the key main parties have finally come to the party. What is remaining are smaller segments which are not really an issue in the broader scheme of things of that conflict.


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So, we are confident that the agreement as it stands will be implemented. Now those that have been outside the country and that have fled because of the fighting finally came back and there was that reunification process which is proceeding.

We must thank Uganda, Kenya and Ethiopia for their continuous support. For when these people leave their own country they go to the neighbouring countries, which they take responsibility to look after them, their safety, food and everything.

Now that the warring factions are now really serious about this, all of them have signed this agreement. It is very promising and we are looking forward to the month of April where some of the resolutions in the agreement are going to be implemented.

As South Africa, we have a role to play in a number of committees that have been established to prepare that country for a democratic election. Firstly, the country must agree on the borders, on the Constitution and on a


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number of aspects that will prepare them for free and fair democratic elections. So, those processes have unfolded.

As South Africa we have assigned individuals from the country to some of these committees and are heading one committee that is the Boundary Committee which has started to work. The Constitutional Amendment Committee has also started its work. So, there is progress and we hope this time this agreement will not collapse. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, I note your work in South Sudan. However, South Africa assumed its seat as a nonpermanent member of the United Nations, UN, Security Council for the period 2019 to 2020 recently. Commenting on this issue Minister Sisulu recently said, South Africa will use its term to advocate for peaceful settlement of disputes and inclusive dialogue.


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Deputy President, DP, Cameroon has been in serous turmoil since 2016 and very little is said or known about this, both in Africa and the world. The conflict between the English speaking minority of Cameroon and the majority French speaking Cameroon has led to gross human rights violations. It has been documented that government forces have carried out targeted killings, arbitrary arrests and burnt down more than 90 villages which has led to the displacements of thousands of people in Cameroon.

In light of all the aforementioned and in line with the African Union’s goal of silencing guns by 2020: What steps has South Africa taken to ensure inclusive dialogue in Cameroon and a peaceful settlement of all disputes?
Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, keep your questions short. Go ahead, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well it is a new question about Cameroon. I think the question as asked here is about South Sudan.


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Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, Deputy President, I beg to differ. It says South Sudan and Africa at large.


Mr N L S KWANKWA: I am following up on Africa at large.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kwankwa!


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Have order, please. Go ahead, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no, even when you want to clarify, keep quiet please, hon member! You are out of order! Go ahead, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I might not be aware of our interventions in Cameroon, because I do not sit in the


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AU, the President is, but I am sure that the AU is concerned about those issues and they are paying attention to some of the conflicts that are there in the continent. So, the Cameroon matter cannot escape the agenda of the AU. So, I am not really quite vest about the developments there. Thank you very much.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, I am not going to ask a very difficult question now.


Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: For I do not want to make your blood to boil.


Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: If you are saying that fragmentation is dividing the continent and hindering our development, the only way forward is a united Africa, but the vision of a united Africa and Agenda 2063 died with the murder of the hon Gaddafi, who was killed by the agents of


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imperialism, unfortunately and painfully so, your government participated in his killing. [Interjections.]

What is the view of the government towards achieving a united Africa through our economies, cultures and political institutions with a common currency, army and vision?

I am sure that one is very simple for you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, like I have said that this is an agenda and all these matters about conflicts and the fighting in the continent, these are issues that are discussed and attended to by the African Union. I am sure it is not about an individual country like you are citing that it was like the former President Gaddafi was the only one who was concerned about the peace and the development of Africa.

I am sure all the leaders that are there in the African Union and the leaders in the continent are concerned about the problems in the continent and they are


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investing a lot of time and resources. Our soldiers are everywhere trying to keep peace. That is an indication of the seriousness that these leaders are taking about the continent.

Remember a number of people have died in these peacekeeping missions. So it is not really that the AU is not concerned about its own affairs in the continent, but of course, you would appreciate the fact that as much as we can assist and support individual countries, but the honours is on that particular country and its people to resolve their own problems. We can assist, but we cannot tell a country what to do.

So, the conflicts that are there, which we are spending most of our time and resources, flying up and down, having meetings, trying to assist these countries that are in conflict to resolve their problems. I think all the efforts that are done by the African Union should be commended. Thank you.


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Ms S V KALYAN: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, in your response you emphasised that the rule of law is critical to achieving peace, security and justice.
However, South Africa failed to uphold the rule of law in the matter of President Omar al-Bashir and that is quite shameful denying many Sudanese people their human rights. [Interjections.] Mr President, notwithstanding in your answer as well, you referred to the fact that previous agreements with regard to the revitalisation collapsed.

Now, what is different this time with you as the Special Envoy that South Africa has laid out in terms of conditions which are conducive to the implementation of that agreement?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, well there is nothing different in terms of the crafting of the agreement. The agreement currently is a bit more wider and probably very impossible to implement. It makes a very cumbersome government allowing five Deputy Presidents so that every warring group must be close.


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That constitutes a transitional government so that everyone can be in the House. That is the difference.

On the first collapsed agreement, there was a President and a Vice President, and all other parties were outside. However, these time all these parties were invited to participate. That is the difference and this time around all those parties that were outside, were invited and they are now signatories to the Revitalised Agreement.

So, I am saying in a sense, there is a difference from the old agreements to the new agreement because the new agreement is more encompassing and it involves those people who were left outside. So, we hope there will be a way forward because all the South Sudan parties are now together in a dialogue. That is the difference.


What is wrong with Al-bashir? I visited Al-bashir and I meet him all the time. [Interjections.]


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Eh, so, there is nothing wrong with Al-bashir.


A DA MALE MEMBER: He is a murderer.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well eh; unfortunately, I did not understand the circumstances at that time, about Al- bashir leaving the country, when he was supposed not to leave the country. So, probably I cannot comment about a situation where I was not part of. [Interjections.]

There should be qualified people who can answer on that. So, I was not part of that. However, in terms of the current agreement, we are all confident that this time around we are going to implement it. [Interjections.]

Al-bashir is not my friend, he is the President.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Deputy President. Hon Ngwezi, to the Deputy President.


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Oh I see. No, hon Ngwezi, take a sit. Hon members, I move swiftly without stating that I am moving, we are moving to Question 5 asked by the hon Ngwezi to the Deputy President. Deputy President.

Question 5:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I realise that you did not indicate that we are on the next question. A portfolio of public employment programmes are, in essence, implemented through the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, which is under the Department of Public Works.

This is a nationwide government-led initiative that is aimed at drawing a significant number of unemployed South Africans into productive work in a manner that will enable them to gain skills and increase their capacity to earn an income or pursue opportunities in their sector of training.

To participate in the EPWP, you do not need any experience as a participant. However, if the hon member


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is referring to the removal of experience as an unjustified barrier in terms of the minimum entry requirement in the public service, we would like to confirm that this matter is currently receiving the necessary attention by the Department of Public Service and Administration. In the main, this is meant to fast- track recruitment of persons, especially young people into the public service.

The call made by the President on experience no longer being a prerequisite for entry-level jobs in government is a game changer and will see a decrease in the high unemployment of suitably qualified young people. We have seen in the private sector other similar initiatives that also aimed at affording unemployed young people an opportunity of a first-time job. So, we call upon our partners in the private sector to embrace this call. As for implementation of this pronouncement, the Minister of Public Service and Administration has issued a directive to all government departments on its implementation, and the commencement date is 1 April 2019.


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In terms of this directive, all departments are required to introduce a graduate recruitment scheme, and to identify graded posts based on the need identified in the departmental human resource plan, and other service delivery improvement initiatives. The Department of Public Service and Administration will soon be undertaking roadshows to further engage with national and provincial government departments on the implementation of this necessary change. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntshayisa! [Interjections.] Sorry?

Mr X NGWEZI: It can’t be Ntshayisa.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh! Ngwezi. Sorry! Sorry!


USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hhawu! Ngixolele mfowethu.

Mnu X NGWEZI: Ngiyakuxolela Sekela Somlomo.


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USEKELA SOMLOMO: Asilwi mina nawe. [Uhleko.]

Mnu X NGWEZI: Ngiyakuxolela.


Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, I first wish to commend the Minister of Labour for having been part of the IFP march that was held last year on 1 May, where the IFP actually, among the items in the memorandum, was the issue of the removal of experience as a prerequisite on the entry level of certain jobs and we commend the Minister of Labour for having made all the contributions and for government also to pronounce itself on this matter and I get your explanation that you are now engaging the private sector which I think is a good move because the private sector has the biggest share in terms of the creation of jobs in this country.

But now, my question would be then to say, how soon we can see the results, if you anticipate, I am not saying you must give me a precise answer but I wanted to say, previously, please engage the private sector or are you


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in the process of engaging the private sector. Now that you are but how soon can we expect some results especially with the engagement of the private sector.
Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think on the side of government the directive will be with effect as from 1 April. Now, with regard to the private sector, the President initiated this move last year in 2018 when, together with business, the President launched the Youth Employment Service, YES programme. The YES programme is meant to allow young people in companies to be employed for a period of a year without really requiring any experience so that you afford them an opportunity to be experienced. They are qualified.

They are employed for a period of a year and during that period they gain experience so that beyond they can move forward, apply, and they are able to quote that experience that they had in that particular company. And this number of young people has grown. The private sector is taking more and more of these young people. The


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barrier here is this requirement of experience for you when you apply for a job as a young, qualified graduate. So I think the discussion with the private sector and the implementation of this programme is already happening.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntshayisa!


Cishe ngakungenisa ekuqaleni kodwa sekuyiskhathi sakho baba.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, I know that the departments and government officials have got a tendency of not observing the rules. They may not even observe that directive that has been issued. I just want to check with you, therefore, that whether you have got any plans to deal with the culprits that may not implement the call that has been made by the President.
Thank you very much.


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Like I have said in the response here that the Department of Public Service and Administration will take a roadshow. They will visit national and provincial departments to see to it that this directive is implemented. Where there are hiccups, they will help those departments to unlock those blockages. So, the department will do that to ensure that all government departments adhere to this directive. And it is important to note that it is a particular department that must declare, grade certain positions in that department that will not require that experience.
After having fulfilled that process, then they can advertise those posts and attract those young people and indicate that there is no experience required. It is only a qualification that is required. So, the Department of Public Service and Administration will assist departments and will monitor those departments. Thank you very much.

Dr M J FIGG: Hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, there are and in some instances were effective mechanisms in place to upskill our people to prepare them for employment. Firstly, TVET colleges, the curriculums are


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outdated. They do not have the tools and infrastructure. They do not receive the necessary support and the graduates are underprepared for the workplace. Secondly, the Setas, there is too much political influence. They are captured. Most of the funds are spent on a bloated bureaucracy and overheads with little left for upskilling. Thirdly, apprentice boards are mostly nonfunctional. This has resulted in a critical shortage of artisans and skilled labour. The ANC killed everything.

What action, if any, will you take to ensure that the aforementioned are effective and to achieve the desired results to solve the youth unemployment crisis?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I must correct this assertion that the curriculum in our TVET colleges is irrelevant; it is untrue that it is irrelevant and outdated. Now, recently the Minister of Higher Education has partnered our TVET colleges with industry. That means the kind of skills that are acquired in our TVET colleges, our students, are given an opportunity to do some practicals in industries,


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companies, preparing them for when they have completed their training. Some are absorbed by these companies.

So, there is a relationship between our TVET colleges and industry. As we speak, industries are adopting TVET colleges, and they are even assisting with some of the equipment that is needed in those colleges so that there is a relationship that has been created, encouraged by the Department of Higher Education. So, I can assure you that the skills that are acquired in our TVET colleges are becoming more relevant to our economy because these learners, students, they interact with industry and upon their completion, they are employed full-time by these very industries. So industries are requested to adopt a TVET college. Thank you.

Ms C N MAJEKE: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, in respect to the fact that you have just said that the implementation will take place from 1 April. There are those departments who have already made advertisements,
e.g. Circular 7 of 2019 by the Department of Water and


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Sanitation where they still require a prerequisite of one to two years experience for a cleaner.

That this will be in April, are those departments going to readvertise because the closing date was 30 March?
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think the purpose here, in every department, there will be a certain number of posts at an entry-level that will be designated, identified, put aside to say, in these positions we do not require experience. We are talking about entry-level. So it is the responsibility of the department to identify those positions that are at an entry-level point where experience won’t be required and in that case, they can then advertise. It is not that in every position in the public service experience is not required. Certain positions at an entry-level will be isolated and be marked as positions that do not require experience. That is the intention and the Department of Public Service will help those departments to identify those entry-level


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positions so that they are set aside to be advertised where experience is not required. Thank you.

Question 6:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, the President, in his state of the nation address, identified stepping up the fight against corruption and state capture as one of the five tasks that we all are required to undertake, working together. This is a very clear message that we as government we are committed to not only root out corruption, but to strengthen the environment in which public representatives and officials alike can perform their responsibilities to the highest standards of ethics and integrity.

There is currently a gap with regard to the vetting of public representatives, which at the moment is limited to their exclusion from being Members of Parliament only on the basis of one having been found guilty and sentenced for a prescribed period by a court of law. The process is currently left to political parties to select among its members those who can best represent them in this House.


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The leaders of political parties therefore have a responsibility to ensure that proper integrity checks are conducted so that elected public representatives are compliant with standards set for public representatives.

In the event the Independent Electoral Commission identifies individuals that are not compliant with provisions set out for public representatives. The Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, is empowered to disqualify those individuals. However, if vetting were to take place for the public representatives, this House must introduce such a vetting mechanism to ensure that the fit and proper persons are elected to represent the people.

For government officials, we wish to assure this House that the different tiers of government do have a number of measures in place to strengthen accountability and responsibility in the public sector. In order to ensure that Public Service employees at national and provincial spheres of government possess the highest level of integrity and accountability, the Department of Public


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Service and Administration issued a revised code of conduct in 2016 which clearly outlines the expected conduct of all Public Service employees. This code of conduct requires government departments to establish ethics committees and also to appoint ethics officers as one of the means to strengthen good governance and ethical conduct in the Public Service.

The Public administration ethics, integrity and disciplinary technical assistance unit, is in the process of being promulgated and will be effective from 1 April 2019. The Public administration ethics, integrity and disciplinary technical assistance unit will be required to: develop norms and standards on integrity, ethics, code of conduct and discipline; provide technical assistance to government departments in managing ethics, integrity and discipline; and assist accounting officers to improve oversight and also to ensure that Public Service employees comply with the norms and standards on integrity, ethics, code of conduct and discipline.


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Furthermore, as part of government’s efforts to ensure that Public Service employees at all levels display the highest level of integrity and accountability, the National School of Government provides various training programmes to officials in the Public Service targeted at improving the integrity of the state.

Regarding the issue of employment in Public Service, all government departments are required to conduct personnel suitability checks on individuals as part of their recruitment processes. These checks are done in order to ensure that suitable and credible individuals are employed in the Public Service.

The Minister for the Public Service and Administration issued a directive on personnel suitability checks effective from 01 February 2018. This shall consist of the following: criminal record checks; citizen verification; financial record checks; qualification and study verification; and previous employment verification.


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There has been no decision by government at this stage to consider legislative amendments to ensure that anyone found guilty of any corruption or fraud will have all their benefits forfeited to the state. However, as part of dealing with corruption in the Public Service, government is introducing mechanisms through the Public Administration Management Act of 2014, to ensure that employees who continue doing business with any organ of the state are subjected to internal disciplinary action and criminal prosecution where applicable.

As members are aware, section 30 of the Public Service Act prohibits employees from performing outside remunerative work without permission. If the Public Service employees contravene this section of the Act, the Act provides that such remuneration earned by the said employee must be paid into the National Revenue Fund.
Furthermore, disciplinary action shall be taken against any Public Service employee who performs remunerative work without permission.


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In addition to this, any funds received by the Public Service employee through illicit means may be dealt with by the asset forfeiture units within the National Prosecuting Authority. We must reiterate that government remains firm on getting rid of corruption and fraud within its ranks. We will continue to explore all mechanisms to achieve this goal. In doing this, we call upon all South Africans to take part in fighting corruption and fraud. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members and hon Deputy President, I am informed that hon Khubisa will step in for hon Shaik Emam for a supplementary question.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker and Hon Deputy President, you will agree with me that prevention is better than cure. I was hoping that perhaps in your response you will even move further and include the private sector as well as it also accounts to the same government.


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Deputy President, again, you will agree with me that Parliament, civil society, academia and other institutions played a huge role towards ensuring that there are judicial commissions of enquiry into the state capture, Eskom, SABC, etc. In light of the revelations and processes that have been seen at the Zondo commission, would you say therefore that the government find itself in an opportune moment to ensure that what happened before does not recur? I am saying this being aware of the unit that has been started within the office of the National Director of Public Prosecutions. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. I think it is important to remind the House that the establishment of these commissions was the decision taken by this very government. It is very important that as government we should be above all these issues. And it is important that we allow a process that will scrutinise our behaviour - the way we do things. It is a very encouraging step for government to say, here we are,


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these are the commissions and anyone who knows anything must go there and say it. I think it’s a bold step.

These commissions should be given the necessary space to do their work. Of course, it is tempting for all of us if we hear certain revelations to say we want to suggest certain processes. I think as South Africans we must allow these commissions to run their full course and allow those who are chairing these commissions to make their own findings.

It’s important that we walk this journey so that we learn out of it. We are a young democracy and of course we cannot claim to be perfect, and we must learn as we proceed. Through these commissions we want to encourage our people not to cast aspersions to individuals that are being mentioned there. Allow the final report to be presented. People must be given an opportunity to go and say their sayings in that commission and we will respect the final judgment of those who are chairing these commissions. What I am saying is that these commissions must be supported. Thank you.


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Mr M N PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President I want to ask you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Paulsen, explain that it is you now as it is courteous to do so.

Mr M N PAULSEN: My apologies, Deputy Speaker. I assume you will know that it is me now.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, it must be recorded. Go ahead!

Mr M N PAULSEN: Deputy President, I want to speak to you about another Mabuza, a real “tsotsi” [criminal]. We all know as a matter of fact that all appointments at board and management level at Eskom are either people who have direct or indirect business interests at Eskom and the energy industry. They have interests in coal contracts, maintenance of Eskom infrastructure such as boilers, and they also have friends and business associates who are building privately owned independent power producers, IPPs.


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The current chairperson of Eskom, Jabu Mabuza [Interjections.] a friend of yours - recently told...[Interjections.]

Mr M NGUNI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. We ask you to rule on the unparliamentary language of... [Interjections.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ...of what?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member of the EFF, take your seat, please. I am listening.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Can you please note me.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, get down. Take your seat and be orderly.

Mr P J MNGUNI: Deputy Speaker, we ask you to, in terms of Rule 92, carefully check the Hansard if the hon member referred the hon Deputy President Mabuza as the real tsotsi. I tried to listen, but I was not certain. And if


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so, please, rule on that reference. With respect to calling members’ names, you would see that Rule 82(3) says, members may not call each other with names and members ought to refer to each other in respectful terms. If that’s the case ask him to withdraw. Perhaps with the able assistance of the Table we can capture that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKR: Hon member, before I give you a chance to speak. Hon members of the EFF, the way you are screaming at the hon member every time he speaks is out of order. It is irresponsible and it is not good when this could be done to you. Hon Sonti, can you stop screaming in the House. By the way this is the House and you can’t just scream as you like. You cannot determine who must speak from any part of the House. Go on, hon member.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Deputy Speaker, may I address you in terms of Rule 78. This is an abuse from that member. I was watching him he was not even sure of what was said. He also confirmed to you on Hansard and said that he


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didn’t hear. But he is very quick to jump and said you must check on Hansard. Please, Deputy Speaker, can we just be protected as well. Please, protect us. Can I be protected, Chair. This is a very, very bad conduct from him.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please, let’s proceed with the business of the House. I do want to assure you that you will not succeed to stop any member of the House from raising a point as they see it appropriate. You have as much right to raise your issues as they do. So please, don’t go that route. And I will read the Hansard. It is their right.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Deputy Speaker, maybe you didn’t hear my point. Can I just clarify myself? I’m saying it is harassment and abuse of him to say that he didn’t hear.
Why is he jumping on a microphone if he didn’t hear?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, I disagree with you, hon member. Take your seat.


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Ms H O MKHALIPI: No, he is very unruly. He is very unruly, Deputy Speaker. We Are sick and tired of him.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are unruly.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Eh, eh, he is very unparliamentary. No, “wena” [you].

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Chief Whip, you are out of order and you are disorderly yourself. No, no, no, the House needs to be protected against you.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Hey, no, that’s not right. Can I continue now?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who gave you that right? Hon member, take your seat. Hon member, why are you rising?

Mr M N PAULSEN: I am not done with my question yet. I am not done with my question.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed! You are left with 12 seconds. Go ahead!

Mr M N PAULSEN: No, it can’t be. I did not stand up.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you have 12 seconds.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Jabu Mabuza admitted at the Zondo commission that he supply coal to Eskom, that he has interests in the company that maintains the majority of boilers at Eskom and his friends at Old Mutual, Sanlam, FNB, Nedbank and Absa are putting money into construction of privately owned renewable energy. [Time expired.] If Jabu Mabuza not resign, and as she said there will be protesting the report for having interests in public companies while being employed there.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, well, it’s another Mabuza and he is not my brother. I think we must allow issues of the State Capture commission of inquiry to proceed. Let us not take discussions that are happening there and bring them here. [Applause.] Issues that are


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raised there, will be finalised there and the chairperson will make his own findings about anyone who is coming before the commission and say something.

When I started I said let us allow these commissions to proceed and let us allow those who are chairing these commissions an opportunity to finally present their reports. Their reports will tell us that after having listened to all these people, these are our findings.
They will finally do so, and let’s not pre-empt them. Thank you.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Deputy Speaker, I think I speak for a lot of South Africans who say we are tired of all the crinkum crankum, higi haga, by ANC about corruption.

At the state of the nation address debate I asked the President whether he will suspend the ANC members implicated in the Bosas corruption. He hasn’t because obviously he is not up to the task. So, why are those members not yet been suspended because, clearly, the ANC is capable of suspending people? Zizi Kodwa was


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suspended. So, why other corrupt people who were implicated in corruption not suspended? Is it because if you do that it’s going to be empty, empty here where even you could be suspended? When will the ANC as a political party start taking actions against its own members? Even you, yourself, you are involved in corruption.


Speaker, on a point of order. The hon member of the DA, hon Van Damme, is casting aspersion on the Deputy President that he is also... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can you please be quiet. You, who are shouting there! Hon Van Damme, look at me.
You may not like my face. Hon Zulu, look at me you may not like my face.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Zulu and I are from the same place. So, I don’t know why she is shouting -         we are from the same place, and we are sisters.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Van Damme, have order. What’s wrong with you? Hon members, come on what’s your story? Please, stop being excited. Go ahead, hon member.


saying that hon Van Damme is casting aspersion on the Deputy President by saying that he will also be suspended. For a record I want to let this House know that the commissions are still on, and are doing their work. Comrade Zizi Kodwa was not suspended. He was not suspended by anyone. So let’s not grandstand in this House and deliberately mislead the House.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: On a point of order. Zizi Kodwa was asked to step aside voluntarily. Why can’t she also ask all those involved in corruption to step aside voluntarily? "Ningotsotsi nonke" [You are all criminals] that’s the problem

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Van Damme, I switched off your mic because I have been telling you to stop what you are doing and you are fragrantly ignoring the Rules as you


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know them that you cannot speak before you are recognised. Don’t do that again, it’s out of order.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Can you recognise me, please. Please, recognise me this time.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I address you in terms of Rule 80(2) of the National Assembly Rules. May I address you?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, go ahead, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Before proceeding with switching a member’s microphone off, the Rules require you to inform the member that you are going to do it. If you want us to abide by the Rules, then the Rules must be applied fairly and equally.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition... [Interjections.]


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Speaker... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I am speaking. When I am speaking I must not be interrupted by anyone. Hon Steenhuisen, you must speak to your members to obey the Rules. I warned her that she is out of order by speaking without being recognised. She was doing that and you were quiet. You didn’t tell her to stop. You can’t bring that here, it’s out of order. You must help us to implement the Rules, hon member.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I am more than happy to help you implement the Rules, but the implementation of the Rules must be done fairly and in terms of the Rules. You can’t switch of somebody’s microphone off without following Rule 80(1).

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I will do it as the Rules require me to do it. And when I don’t, I will give you reasons why I am doing it. And when I do that I do it to


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advance the interest of order in the House. And you, stop screaming at me, please. Hon members, stop screaming.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, thank you for finally noting me. Can we please continue with the business of the day. I don’t know what chaos the DA is causing. Can we please continue; can we please continue. [Interjections.] I can also insult you. I can come there and insult you very good. Don’t start!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, both of you take your seats. Hon Deputy President and hon members, can we proceed.

Ms T V TOBIAS: Deputy Speaker, I just want to alert you that hon Steenhuisen misled the House. Rule 82 does not speak about any of the things he has just said. He needs to read the Rule Book. Thank you.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I think the hon member spent too much time in bar. I said Rule 80(2).


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, who gave you the right to speak? I gave her, and I didn’t give you. You must not do that. You don’t have a patronising duty to speak when you like in the House. I am talking to you. No, you must not do that. You are out of order.

Mr T V TOBIAS: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I am proceeding now.

Mr T V TOBIAS: Hon Steenhuisen made a reflection on me. I have never had alcohol, and I don’t know it for a long time. This hon member has just made a personal reflection on me that I am drunk.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, I will follow it up; I will follow it up. I will!

Mr T V TOBIAS: He said I’m drunk!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, please proceed.


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, maybe there are certain things that we must clarify here. It is very important to clarify a few things that no one is above the law - no one is above the law, whoever. Whoever will be found guilty will not evade the law. Even if it’s me don’t cast aspersions. If I am found to be on the wrong side of the law, the law must take its course.

We must differentiate between people. A process of the commission is unfolding. One person comes and makes allegations about somebody and that somebody must come and say his or her story, and the judge is going to decide. Finally, all of us must accept the ruling of the chairperson.

In that case if there are individuals that must be prosecuted stemming from these commissions of enquiries, let it be. But let us not jump the gun. Thank you very much.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. My question was when will the ANC as a political party start


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suspending its members implicated in corruption. That was my question and I did not get the answer. So I want the answer.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, probably I was trying to answer your question to say we cannot jump the gun and go to the conclusion and say so and so am guilty. Allow the commissions to run their course. All of us will be here, not unless we would have died. One day all of us will have the findings of these commissions. [Interjections.] No, why do you suspend if you are not investigating yourself? Allow for a verdict. We can have our own interpretations, but finally, I am saying let us allow the commissions to run their course. That is a logical thing to do. Thank you very much.

Mr E KEKANA: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, I am happy to hear that government is committed in rooting out corruption. This is evident though a number of commissions that the hon President of the country,


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President Matamela Cyril Ramaphosa, has set up. However, I am worried about the buy-in or co-operation from other institutions within government. For example, in 2014, Cabinet took a decision that all senior officials should be vetted, particularly those in the supply chain management. But to date, that decision has not been fully implemented. Therefore, my question is, do you have a system or mechanism to monitor all Cabinet decisions? If so, can you in this House, indicate a programme as to how you are going to make sure that these decisions are implemented?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, we can check the implementation of this decision, especially the vetting of the supply chain officials. We can check that and give back a report to the House. But what I know is that all senior mangers, right from the directors–general, DGs, of the departments to the chief financial officer, CFO, of a department, must go through a vetting process before Cabinet can consider their appointment. Vetting is done on the appointment of senior managers in different government departments. I am not aware of the officials

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in the supply chain whether the same is happening. We can check that and give the necessary report. Thank you very much.

The House adjourned at 17:33.