Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 17 Oct 2017


No summary available.




The House met at 14:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members, you will get a chance to bow. Hon members, before we proceed with today’s business - order, can we settle down.

I wish to announce that the vacancies that occurred in the National Assembly due to the resignation of Mr B Molefe and Mr P P Mabe have been filled by the nomination

of Mr M J Wolmarans and Dr N C Dlamini-Zuma with effect from 7 September 2017 respectively. [Applause.]

The members have taken an oath in the Deputy Speaker’s office. I welcome hon members.



Hon members, the presiding officers and the rest of membership of Parliament learned with shock of the tragic passing of Ms T E Baker, a member of the DAHer funeral was last week.

The House will schedule an appropriate motion in this regard for next week. May we stand and observe a moment of silence in memory of the hon member.

Thank you, you may be seated.


There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the report be adopted.

Motion Agreed to.

Report accordingly agreed to.


(Second Reading debate)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just before we proceed, hon members what were you screaming there about? [Interjections.]

A FEMALE HON MEMBER: The Deputy Speaker did not recognise us. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPOSITION: Maybe they were asking about the industrial action and maybe a stay away.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon M R Semenya, Chairperson of the Committee will address the House on the Bill. [Applause.]

Ms M R SEMENYA: Hon Deputy Speaker and all protocol observed. The Liquor Products Amendment Bill seeks to amend the Liquor Products Act, Act 60 of 1989. The Act provides for control over the sale and the production for the sale of certain alcoholic products, the composition and the properties of such products and the use of certain particulars in connection with the sale of such products, amongst other purpose.

The Bill seeks to provide definitions and provide for further requirements in respect of the liquor products that are purposely intended to fall into the market for trade purposes.

The objectives of the Bill are to amend the Liquor Products Act, Act 60 of 1989, so as to insert certain

definitions and to amend and delete others... [Interjections.]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry, hon member. Hon members, can you please lower your voices. You are too loud and we would like to hear the speaker on the podium.

Ms M R SEMENYA: ... to provide for the renaming and reconstitution of the Wine and Spirit Board and to limit its powers; to provide for requirements regarding beer, traditional African beer and other fermented beverages; to repeal a provision in respect of the authorisations regarding certain alcoholic products; to empower the Minister to designate a person to issue export certificates; to align certain provisions of the Constitution; to extend the Minister’s power to make regulations; to provide gender-equal terminology and to provide for matters connected therewith.

Over the years, there has been various deficiencies identified in the Act and these have necessitated the need for amendment. In this regard, in 2008, the Liquor Products Amendment Act of 2008 was published as an

interim measure to address urgent amendments only. The Liquor Products Act was approved by this Parliament and promulgated on 15 May 2009.

Following the promulgation of the Act, an inclusive Liquor Products Advisory Forum, LPAF, was established. The LPAF was chaired by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and worked to review the Act with the purpose of addressing various deficiencies and loopholes, which existed in the Act. The current proposed amendments, therefore, embodied a culmination of the extensive work and consultations.

With regard to the aspects being amended, the Bill seeks to remedy several deficiencies in the Act such a loophole exists in the Liquor Act 2003, which allows any liquor product labelled as beer or ale to be manufactured and sold. This has led to the proliferation and uncontrolled sale of sugar fermented beverages and other concoctions.

The scope of the Act currently only relates to the liquor products with an alcohol percentage of more than 1% per volume. The Act is therefore not aligned with other

international and national legislation for example the Foodstuffs, Cosmetic and Disinfectants Act, which deals with foodstuffs and alcohol content of up to 0,5% per volume. A grey area exists relating to products with an alcohol content of between 0,5% and 1% per volume, which falls outside the scope of both sets of the legislation and therefore remain unregulated as a result.

Currently, alcoholic fruit beverage can only be made from the fresh juice. The use of concentrate or reconstituted juice is not allowed. The definition of the alcohol fruit beverages is therefore amended to allow the use of reconstituted juice.

Severe limitations apply to specially authorised liquors like honey beverages, orange juice and cane sugar fermented alcohol beverages. Only producers that are historically qualified to produce these specially authorised liquors are allowed to produce these products currently. The total volume of production per annum is also restricted, which is an additional limitation that does not apply to other types of liquor products. These requirements exclude any new entrants to the market and

also places unnecessary limitations on the current authorised producers.

Export control of liquor products is currently sole responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. The Act does not allow the Minister the power or discretion to outsource control over the exportation of the liquor products, for instance in circumstances where there is a lack of resources and skills. The requirements of the Act is therefore not in line with the requirements of the Agricultural Products Standards Act, which allows the Minister ... [Interjections.]


Ms M R SEMENYA: ... to outsource the export control to designate assignee.


Ms M R SEMENYA: There are currently also no requirements in the Act for the registration of persons as producers,

blenders or fillers of liquor products. Therefore, currently, only the seller of the liquor products takes responsibilities for the content of the liquor products concerned. The bottler of the product has no responsibility towards the product and is also not traceable in the production chain. This amendment aims to rectify the shortcoming by ensuring compulsory registration of the bottlers. The powers of the Minister to make regulations regarding packaging standards and the type of containers, needs to be defined separately.

Hon Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, we must state that the inclusion of the definition of the beer, the traditional African beer and other fermented beverages under the scope of the Act will ensure that a clear definition exists for these products and that the loophole under the Liquor Act will be addressed. The Department of Health will no longer have to evaluate the labels of these types of liquor products, as the composition, labelling, export and import certification will become the responsibility of the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.

The SA Police Service will have certainty that these products are indeed covered by the legislation and will be able to act and prosecute when the Act is contravened, in contrast with the current situation, where the ale is sold unregulated. This will be beneficial to the consumers of these types of products, as there is no government department that is currently regulating the composition, food safety and quality of ale or beer. It is envisaged that this Liquor Products Amendment Bill will strengthen the regulatory framework for agricultural production, health, food safety and the sale of liquor products in the country. I thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members before we proceed, please join me in welcoming in the gallery, the delegation from the Zambian parliament, led by Mr Richard Musukwa, the government Chief Whip. Welcome. Thank you, Sir. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Hon members! Hon members, you cannot be screaming like that, this is Parliament! [Interjections.] I cannot believe this.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Excuse me, Deputy Speaker, but am I correct in understanding that this is a Second Reading debate? When you have a debate you have members that participate in that debate. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no ... honourable ... honourable ... [Interjections.] No. No. Just bring me the
... Where is the speakers list? [Interjections.] Hon members, this is the first introduction of the Bill. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: It’s a Second Reading debate! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, it is not a debate. It’s a standard entry and that is why we are asking for that here, okay. If there are none ... [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: We would like to participate and we have a speaker in the bay waiting to speak. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The time allocation will be according to the declarations, as usual. Go ahead, hon member.

An HON MEMBER: They must reshuffle you, man!

Ms A STEYN: Deputy Speaker, I will be short ... [Interjections.]


MOTLATSA MODULASETULO: Monokotswai ha o butswe ho ya ka takatso ya tshwene.


Go ahead, hon member.

Ms A STEYN: Deputy Speaker, you are using my time.

Deputy Speaker, what happened here is that people found a gap in the market. There are two pieces of legislation

that regulate food and foodstuffs under which beer and other alcoholic beverages are regulated. The first one is the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act that regulates any product with an alcohol content of up to 0,5%.

The Liquor Products Act regulates all products with an alcohol content of 1% and more. So, what happened is that some people saw the gap between 0,5% and 1% alcohol per volume. Those people then produced something called traditional beer or beer made out of sugar content that ferments into a product that could have an alcohol content or something that is not even known.

What we have asked for is a reduction in the alcohol content of liquor products to 0,5% so that this practice can be stopped.

The problem with regulating those products is that there are no people out there who can check the products to measure what the alcohol content is. So, what we have asked for is that the alcohol content should be lowered

to 0,5% so that there is no way that people can put alcohol content of under 1% per volume in a product.

The importance of this is that you can currently buy a bottle of something called ale of else in shops with a 0,8% alcohol content which is not regulated. So children can buy it normally on the shelves of the shops.

The other important thing also is that this unregulated beer or product became so commonly used that it even has a name out there called tik in a bottle or liquid tik.

The DA supports the amendments to this Bill to make sure that we regulate the use of products with an alcohol content. The important part though is that we must make sure that this can be policed – for the lack of a better word – to make sure that, when people buy a product that they think has a very high alcohol content, it can be then given to the police to be tested. What is currently happening is that it cannot be tested and we therefore support the amendment of this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N M PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker, the greatest opponents to this Bill are the retailers because the Bill requires that these particular beverages will not be sold in supermarkets but will have to be sold in bottle stores.
We feel that there should be a larger conversation around alcohol because it continues to destroy our communities and is a key factor in the high levels of abuse of women and children in this country.

If you want to have an honest discussion about alcohol and its abuse, historical contexts and causes must be understood. When colonialists first came to colonise our land, they brought alcohol along with the gun. There have always been traditional forms of alcohol in South Africa, specifically beer, but the culture around how this was used was not abusive. The abuse of alcohol and all the negative consequences that came with it are directly linked to colonialism and apartheid. White farmers of this country have been paying their workers with alcohol for over 250 years. This has created a culture of dependency but also generational alcoholism. This is why South Africa has one of the highest levels of foetal alcohol syndrome in the world. This means that, even

before certain children are born, they are already addicted to alcohol. This is particularly true in farming communities where this practice of paying workers with alcohol is still rife.

During apartheid, the government flooded the country’s townships with beer halls and SA Breweries products while criminalising all forms of traditional beer. We can see the consequences of that today in the high levels of alcohol abuse. This is not a result of the consumption of traditional beer but of SA Breweries products and other commercial alcohol brands. This situation is made worse by the power of SA Breweries, one of the largest beer companies in the world. They are so powerful that, in parts of this country where the government can’t deliver books, SA Breweries can deliver beer.

Our main concern is that traditional beer should not be monopolised by big producers but rather left for communities and small businesses to produce. As we have clearly shown, it is not traditional beer that is destroying our communities but rather the consumption of

commercially produced alcohol products, particularly those of SA Breweries.

We agree: regulate by all means, but do not allow the production of traditional beer to be monopolised by big corporations. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The IFP... Wait, you were not IFP when last time I checked.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Deputy Speaker, besides the intention, amendments and deletion of certain definitions, the Bill’s import is closing certain loopholes that currently exist, particularly around permitting any product to be defined as beer or ale and then manufactured and sold. Because of this loophole, poisonous substances have reportedly been infused into alcoholic beverages and sold to unsuspecting consumers. Substances ranging from battery acid and methylated spirits or dangerously high alcohol content have found their way into products that may just labelled be as “ale”. When these are ingested, they cause great harm.

Large-scale manufacturers are not the only culprits in respect of the above. Some micro-breweries also guilty. Enforcement will be difficult at such micro levels as many of these unwanted products are manufactured on a small scale, such as home breweries. It will take concerted efforts by the department to ensure that only products fit for consumption are allowed to the market. The IFP supports the report. Thank you.

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, Cope hopes that the Amendment Bill will have the effect of reducing the use of contaminants such as battery acid and methylated spirits in some home-brewed products. These elements are the ones that turned genuine African beer into such a concoctions as barberton, skokiaan, sebapa le masenke, etc.

Cope welcomes the harmonisation of our legislative regime with international norms regarding products with an alcohol content between 0,5% and 1,0% which, up to now, has been unregulated.

We note that the Amendment Bill proposes the use of concentrate or reconstituted fruit juice and not just fresh fruit juice in the production of alcohol fruit beverages.

Cope is none the less concerned as to whether the government has the necessary enforcement infrastructure to ensure compliance with the Act and these proposed amendments. We concur with the views of Grain SA that the section of the Bill unnecessarily limits the use of grain sorghum in beer production. As Grain SA has pointed out in hearings on the Bill, grain sorghum can be used to produce beverages to satisfy the growing demand for gluten-free beer and other gluten-free products.

Furthermore, sorghum is widely used in the global market to produce premium spirits, specifically whisky. By excluding sorghum, these new markets cannot be exploited and will serve as a barrier of entry for agro-processing in South Africa. It is with these reservations that Cope supports this Amendment Bill. Thank you.

Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the NFP welcomes both the Liquor Products Amendment Bill as well as the additional proposed amendments contained in this report. The aims and intentions of this Bill are, amongst others, to restructure the existing regulatory Wine And Spirit Board and to provide greater clarity on prescribed search and seizure procedures.

Moreover, the NFP believes that several of the amendments will contribute towards providing consumers of liquor with protection against substandard products made available for commercial consumption and will, at the same time, confer legitimacy on and consumer confidence in those products which do meet the legislative requirements.

However, we have a slight concern with the proposed amendment in clause 2 which would require the concurrence of two Ministers to establish the remuneration rates of non-state employees serving on the wine certifying authority. This provision might lead to a delay in decision-making which is contrary to the ideal of swift and effective administrative action.

We welcome the proposed amendments contained in clause 11 which deals with the disposal of goods and products which fall short of legislative requirements. The NFP believes that the proposed insertion in clause 11 will align the Liquor Products Amendment Bill with other legislation dealing with undesirable goods. Placing the burden of paying for the destruction of goods deemed to be lacking in legislative compliance on the producer of such non- compliant goods will be a significant deterrent to convince producers of liquor products to stick to the law.

At the same time, we believe that the measures proposed in clause 11 and elsewhere in the Bill will contribute to the aim of providing a degree of consumer confidence in commercial products while providing a sanction for those producers of liquor who deliberately and knowingly fail to comply with the legislative prescriptions. The NFP supports the Bill. Thank you.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries’ revised version of the Liquor Products Amendment Bill is a product of a

lengthy, all-inclusive and participatory process that took onboard the views of industry practitioners, role players and consumers respectively.

The AIC welcomes the revised version of the Bill, primarily the provisions of sections 4, 11 and 18 of the principal Act. This Bill is a culmination of the civic advocacy the AIC has been conducting to understand from the general public the extent to which the regulation of manufacturing and packaging of legal products would impact the attitude of a regulated liquor product sector.

Importantly, the Bill introduces traditional beer as a liquor product. In terms of the Bill, the produced traditional beer must be of such a manner that it is of prescribed class and complies with the prescribed requirements for the class concerned. The AIC welcomes this intervention. Many people living in villages are fervent consumers of traditional beer. Many have complained of foreign objects applied to the manufacturing of this beer. However, we should remind consumers and manufacturers of traditional beer that this Bill is not intended to place a chilling effect on their

traditional customs. Our understanding is that the Bill only targets large-scale manufacturers and not necessarily subsistence traditional beer manufacturers. However, subsistence traditional beer manufacturers must observe the regulations of the Bill.

Furthermore, in terms of the Bill, the Minister is empowered to grant exemption if a particular product has an alcohol limit exceeding the stipulated 0,5%.
Declassification of liquor product powders as liquor products will go a long way in calibrating the scheme of the liquor industry. In fact, it will bring to book manufacturers who have been evading tax under the pretext of protecting their products, words, and expressions falling outside the regulation and ambit of the Liquor Products Act. In terms of the Bill, the Minister is thus empowered to exclude beer products from the ambit of regulations, if necessary. We support the Bill. Thank you very much.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, the UDM supports the Bill. The amendments proposed by this Bill will certainly eliminate the uncertainties created by the parallel

existence of the Liquor Products Act, Act 60 of 1989, the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, Act 54 of 1972, as well as the Liquor Act, Act 59 of 2003. These Acts have not complemented one another, and this amendment is trying to bring synergy and ensure that all the gaps are properly closed.

In terms of the Customs and Excise Act, Act 91 of 1964, section 47(9) in particular states that licensed manufacturers of alcoholic beverages must submit their products for tariff clarification within the timeframe stipulated. Accordingly, the tariff classification of the product will ensure the correct excise duty is paid and complied with. The amended Act will better facilitate this legislative requirement.

The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, working with the Department of Health, will then be better empowered to enforce the law. Amongst others, they will have more legal ground to mandate their inspectors to make sure they conduct their work diligently and without fear. The inspectors must ensure the description

of the product labels correlates with the content of the product.

The amendments will also help to include definitions for beer, contemporary beer, and traditional African beer.
This will also help with strict regulation of the cheap liquor that is currently sold as ale. Alcohol sold without liquor licences, as required by the law, will now be a thing of the past. Our nation can be assured of being sold and supplied with properly regulated liquor products. We support the Bill. Thank you.

Mr P D N MALOYI: Deputy Speaker, without trying to repeat what the chairperson of the portfolio committee presented to this House, which the ANC agrees with, there are just three things that we need to clarify in order to ensure our people understand exactly what is happening.

When we read the Liquor Products Amendment Bill, we should not read it isolated from the Liquor Act, as some of the things not contained in the Liquor Products Amendment Bill are contained and thoroughly discussed in the Liquor Act. For example, this department is not

responsible for enforcement. The Department of Trade and Industry is responsible for enforcement. Section 26 of the Liquor Act indicates clearly the Minister must appoint inspectors who are responsible for ensuring that everybody complies. It goes further to say the inspectors will work together with the law enforcement agencies, particularly the SA Police Service. So, the enforcement of this section is covered thoroughly in the Liquor Act.

Relating to traditional beer, if it is not as defined in the Act, it is no longer traditional beer; it is something else. This means our inspectors will have to do their work, whether you are putting in ... [Inaudible.]
... and all other unnecessary products. It therefore means it is no longer a beer, as defined in the Act.

I have to indicate that we have interacted with the stakeholders, including “green” South Africa. During our interaction, we all came to the conclusion that this Bill is desirable; therefore, it must be passed by this House. So, whoever will want to insist that they agree with other stakeholders and so on, the unfortunate part is that they were not part of the interaction, and those

stakeholders now understand where we are going and why it is necessary for us to effect these amendments. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before I put the Bill through the usual process, I would just like to clarify an issue raised in the House earlier by hon Steenhuisen.

In terms of Rule 291, all Bills placed on the Order Paper for Second Reading must be debated, unless the National Assembly Programming Committee by consensus decides otherwise in respect of a particular Bill. This is the case with this Bill. When the National Assembly Programming Committee presented on Thursday, this is what happened. Unfortunately, the hon Steenhuisen could not be present – for good reason. We were informed of that.

What perhaps needs to be improved is that where there is no debate, the entry on the Order Paper will simply say “Second Reading” instead of “Second Reading debate”. So, as we have just done, hon members were given the opportunity to declare, as it was agreed in the National

Assembly Programming Committee. I thought this matter needed that clarification.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, thank you for your clarification. I wasn’t at the National Assembly Programming Committee meeting last week, as you rightly say. However, I did get a report back that there was agreement that whilst there would be no full debate, the declarations would be allowed. I don’t think we have ever passed a Bill in this House where declarations have not been allowed in lieu of the debate. So, your attempt to move on without taking the declarations, to my mind, was a misinterpretation of what had been agreed last Thursday.

If you examine the Hansard when you look back later, you will see what I am talking about.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no! I am absolutely clear. I requested declarations.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You said there’d be no declarations.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you didn’t hear me. No, no, no! [Interjections.] No. Hon members, let’s proceed. What we needed to do has been done. It is very clear, as requested by the Chair.

The attention of the presiding officer having been drawn to the requirement for a quorum in terms of Rule 98(1), the bells were rung.

A quorum being present, the question was put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Bill read a second time.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I rise in terms of Rule 98, and I think the governing party should pass a vote of thanks to the opposition for helping them pass their legislation today because they wouldn’t have been able to do it on their own. [Interjections.]

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, may we be favoured with the results of that vote because that normally is done? Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there was no objection to the Bill. Having stated that there are 238 members, there is no need for that. Thank you very much. As I said, the Bill will be sent to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence. [Applause.]


Ms D P MAGADZI: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The transport portfolio committee is currently deliberating on the National Land Transport Amendment Bill, which was brought to the shores of Parliament and tact in April last year as a section 776 Bill.

The Bill seeks to amend the National Land Transport Act of 2009; to insert certain definitions and amendments; to provide non-motorised and accessible transport; to bring

the Act up to date with the developments since the implementation of the Act in 2009; to provide certain powers for provinces; to conclude the contract for public transport services; to expand the powers of the Minister to regulate and introduce safety measures; to prescribe the criteria and requirements for the municipalities to enter into contract for public transport services.

The Bill was referred to the committee and as we were dealing with the Bill we made enquiries in terms of public hearings and amended the Bill as required; but what came to the fore is that, there were other provisions which came, which the portfolio committee believed that in view of the fact that they were not part of the amendment which were brought to Parliament, we see a need that this Bill be re-publicised for the new amendments to be brought to the fore; so that members of the communities and the public in general can be able to be part of the amendment of this legislation.

The committee therefore submits the report to motivate its request for permission in terms of Rule 286 subsection 4(c) to amend other provisions of the National

Land Transport Act 5 of 2009. We so request with this motivation. Thank you.

Declaration of votes:

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. During the first round of the public submissions it became clear to the public transport portfolio committee that other provisions the national Land Transport Act had to be amended to keep up with the latest advancements.

It is clear that there are serious concerns regarding the new definition of, and application of linked provisions regarding E-hailing the possibility of relaying devolution of many public transport functions to municipal’s sphere as well as the fact that it was the intention of the principal Act.

The branding of public transport vehicles which we allow for ease of law enforcement operations as well as determination of possible situation of services on routes to allow for an optimum use of the municipal integration of the public transport network plans.

The use of transport authorities to ensure smooth public transport operations with reference to change of modes within the municipal boundaries as well as provincial boundaries and a possibility of implementing uniform standards for public transport services.

Amending the National Land Transport Act is a unique opportunity to update the legislation. This will also be an added opportunity for another round when the public and stakeholders will be consulted; and the previous round public consultations proved to be most useful where aspects of, that previously were not highlighted, came to the fore during these consultations.

If the work we are attempting to do here on the Bill and the Act would make even a marginal improvement, then it’s a no-brainer this need to be approved. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Deputy Speaker, as the EFF we do agree with the few amendments suggested for this Bill, like the clause which makes it illegal for the SAPS and the Traffic Officers to have any financial interests in the

public transport industry; but we cannot support amendment that aims to further destroy the taxi industry of this country.

The taxi industry in South Africa which is having few problems is one of – not only black owned multimillion rand industry in this economy. The ANC are doing everything in their power to destroy this industry and the 100 000 jobs it provides. The are amendments in this Bill which aims to further the goal of the ANC by placing further restrictions and bureaucratic requirement on industries which already cannot handle the restrictions placed on it.

The direct consequences of these amendments will reduce the number of operation licences awarded to the taxis and will make it easier for the taxi to be impounded. The knock of effect of this will be disaster and more jobs will be lost, and the public transport will be in the white hands again while those using public transport will be forced to use the broken down inefficiency train system which is a problem in itself.

As a party dedicated to the upliftment and the economic emancipation of the black South African and the working class, we cannot and will never in good conscious support the amendment of the Bill which is against the taxi industry. We therefore, as the EFF agree that the permission be granted for this Bill to be postponed.
Thank you.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the IFP support the request in terms of the National Assembly Rule 286(4)(c) to amend other provisions in the National Land Transport Act 2009, which was enacted legislation at the time in order to satisfy transport arrangement and undertaking for the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

During our deliberations on certain amendments to the principal Act last year it became apparent that it would be necessary to amend other provisions and amend legislation beyond the current scope of the Bill. One of the main amendments is the allowance for the provincial legislations to establish the provincial transport authority, which currently does not have a provision made for it in the Bill.

E-hailing services operators such as Uber, Zebra Cabs, and Taxify, must also be included, and it is therefore necessary that we proceed with both the Amendment Bill and request for a permission in terms of the National Assembly Rule 268(4)(c). I thank you.

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Deputy Speaker, our national transport system and in particular our public transport system is in dire need of intervention on a scale never seen before if we are to meet the needs of our development state.

The daily carnage on our roads and the death of too many of our scholars making use of inadequate transport lend a sense of urgency, the need for government to step in and put in place a transport system that is safe, affordable and efficient.

The NFP welcomes all initiatives which could contribute to the progressive development of our national and public transport sectors and system. We fully support the suggestion for additional opportunities for public participation which is at the heart of our democracy.

However, we have to ask whether the advantages of establishing provincial transport authorities as proposed in the report will outweigh the disadvantages. The NFP proposes that this matter be given carefully consideration particularly so since it would an additional layer of bureaucratic red tape to a transport system which is already suffocating under a burden of paper work which renders its efficiency virtually unworkable at times.

Looking ahead Deputy Speaker, the NFP believes that no amount of legislation in itself will rescue our collapsing transport system. Far too many of our transport related problems in South Africa are due to incompetence, corruption and general mismanagement in our transport related state entities; until such time as this agencies which have the very important task of managing our transport system shape up, we will continue to witness our roads infrastructure gantry; and we will continue to sit with an underutilised rail road system while the unsuitable expensive locomotive remain not bought.

Until such time as our transport management agencies get their act together we will continue to lose lives on our roads at an astronomical costing pain and suffering for those affected. The NFP calls for transparent, efficient and accountable governance to be prioritise both within the Department of Transport and its agencies; once such a paradigm shift has taken place legislation can be implemented effectively as intended by this hon House.

In conclusion, in the interest of increased road safety and hope for an effective transport system, the NFP supports the report as tabled here today. I thank you.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, the ANC support that the scope of the amendment be extended, be published so that we are able to get more consultation on the matter of the scope.

What is this about? This report is not about amendment as I am hearing the speakers are talking about. It is about to republish the Bill so that we are able to take more input and more input to address the weaknesses that we have identified as a committee already.

Let me just say that in response to some statements that has been made that the ANC wants to destroy the minibus taxi industry. It is just unfounded cheap politics. It is this ANC government that make sure that we drive the transformation of the taxi industry; that addresses the integration of public transport; that make sure that the public transport is efficient and safe.

It this ANC government that has made sure that unregulation of the taxi industry is regulated; that has a transformation of the taxi industry; that has an integrated and seamless transport services between the buses and taxis. It is not about destroying the public transport particularly as a claim being made.

Therefore, as the ANC we support this request, that the Parliament gives us a space to make sure that transport authority in the provinces as well municipalities be an important institutional arrangement for integrated public transport. There is no way where we cannot have something like that. Therefore, we support the report. Thank you. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

Agreed to.

Permission accordingly granted to the Portfolio Committee on Transport to inquire into amending other provisions of the National Land Transport Act 5 of 2009 in terms of Rule 286(4)(c).



Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, comrades and hon members, the reports that we are presenting before the House for adoption are reports of the Department of Basic Education, Co-operative Governance and Traditional

Affairs, Cogta, and the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, Dirco, which deal with irregular fruitless and wasteful expenditure as well as the report on Sports and Recreation which is about approving an unauthorised expenditure.

Deputy Speaker, in the first instance, let me thank my comrades in the committee with whom we have been working incoherently together, Ross, Brauteseth, Mente, Hlengwa, Chiloane, Kekana, Smith, Khunou and Comrade Booi. I also want to thank the parties that are represented on the committee. I think they have, at least, given their members space for us to do our work with very minimal party lines being put across which has enabled us to do quite some work.

Now Deputy Speaker, our main challenge with Dirco, Basic Education and Cogta is around fruitless and wasteful expenditure as well as irregular expenditure which we know in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, it is a contravention of the law. The Public Finance Management Act says prevent irregular, fruitless and wasteful as well as unauthorised expenditure. If you look at the

report of the Auditor-General, even this morning, you realise that irregular expenditure year-on-year is on the rise – meaning that the ability of departments and officials to operate within the rules-based environment is lacking. One of the most worrying factors is the fact that when irregular expenditure has occurred, firstly, there is no immediate classification or determination whether it is indeed irregular or not; secondly, the lack of investigations; and lastly the lack of consequences in terms of what it is that should happen when such misconduct have been found. We believe this is what creates the space for these endless increases in irregular as well as fruitless and wasteful expenditure.

If you look at Dirco, our main problem is the chief financial officer, CFO. The CFO of Dirco whom we were told has been suspended and that there is an investigation, but we understand that nothing has actually happened this far. Once again this logic of the Department of Basic Education of using implementation agencies, it is these agencies that have been given money and they have used it without following process and

procedures. I think the management of Kha Ri Gude programme had also been a problem.

It is the same story with Cogta. We want to urge portfolio committees that as you consider your Budgetary Review and Recommendations Reports, BRRR, these matters need to be considered. However, if we are going to be approving money to people who don’t have a sense of how to manage it – it is a problem.

Lastly, on Sports and Recreation, comrades, we ask that Parliament should approve that unauthorised expenditure because essentially it was a misclassification. The department did not overspend on its budget. It had money, but because it was classified as unauthorised expenditure Parliament needs to pass a resolution that recognises it as a misclassification. Otherwise the department has always had an unqualified audit opinion with no findings for some time now except for this very issue. The director-general has been saying it is the one thing that is blotting this, otherwise, good-audit record. So, we would want Parliament to assist us and approve that

resolution on an unauthorised expenditure. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Reports be adopted.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Speaker, as usual we have got the ANC napping and that is why they were not ready to speak on these reports. Members, today we speak about irregular expenditure and fruitless and wasteful expenditure in a number of departments. It is interesting that we talk about it today because this is about microcosm what’s going on in South Africa at the moment. We had R416,7 million of irregular expenditure with Dirco. It resulted because the Bid Adjudication Committee, BAC, in this particular case told the Bid Evaluation Committee, BEC, what to do and that cost us R170 million. Then scoring wasn’t taking into account when Price Waterhouse Coopers, PWC, was appointed and that cost us R21 million. Then we had extended contracts

willy-nilly that cost us R142 million. Then, we went in an office in Ghana which was unoccupied for a period of time and that cost us R2,4 million. So, we are just not paying attention. Then we have the Department of Education R2,2 billion extending contracts, Mvula, Independent Development Trust, IDT, Council for Science and Industrial Research, CSIR. Let’s not go through a competitive bidding process. Just carry on when you finished. Let’s ignore the Public Finance Management Act. Let’s ignore the Supply Chain Management, SCM, processes. Then, of course, we have fruitless and wasteful expenditure of R44 million by the Department of Basic Education. We paid the claims of a service provider that was providing education to deceased adult learners - very effective. Well done!

Let me come to Cogta, it didn’t follow the SCM processes when it comes to R1 billion. Of course, they made payments without any quotations whatsoever - fantastic financial control! Today, we had a very interesting engagement with the Auditor-General. The Auditor-General gave us a briefing of where we are now and it is terrifying. The first thing the AG told us is that they

are working in a mafia thuggery environment. They are under political pressure because the heads of departments and Ministers are scared of the impact and bad press of adverse reports. This has resulted in litigation and the questioning of the AG’s mottos. It has resulted in lawyers becoming accountants, but the most important thing it has resulted in active interference with audits and personal threats and intimidation towards AG’s staff. This is mafia thuggery but given who is the head of the state we are not surprised. So, we have looked all of this and we saw where we are right now in this environment.

The AG told us today that we are sitting at R46 billion in irregular expenditure. I will say it again,
R46 billion, and that excludes 26 outstanding audits, IDT, SA Express, SA Airways, SAA, Air Chefs, SAA Technical, Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, and our favourite, Mango Airlines, which was on strike today. They are all outstanding. That figure is going to go north of R60 billion of irregular expenditure. We have employees in the last audit, 698 of them at 24 departments that did business with the state, and no

action whatsoever. Since the audit, we had 649 employees who do business with 32 departments – there is no action whatsoever. The action on irregular expenditure is incredible. In the last few years, it has been
R91 billion of irregular expenditure. There is an amount of R81 billion of irregular expenditure and nothing has been done - R81 billion, no consequence. An amount of R2,9 billion has been written off and R7,7 billion colleagues has been condoned. Does anybody want to guess how much have we recovered out of R91 billion? [Interjections.] Does anyone want to guess? [Interjections.] Eighty million rands - that’s what we recovered. That is the effectiveness of our system.

Now, let’s compare the provinces because it is nice to look at how things work. Let’s look at KwaZulu-Natal. They have gone from R477 million to R3,9 billion, Health from R466 million to R3,5 billion, Human Settlements from R6 million to R2 billion. The Western Cape on the other hand had 17 unqualified audits and only two with the findings. [Applause.] This proves the point that whether it’s consequence or sanctions where employees do not do business with the state, where finance is managed

properly, where there is no mafia thuggery, finances work, things work. Where could that be? Of course, the DA-controlled Western Cape - coming soon to a Union
Building near you. Siyabangena! [We are in!]. [Applause.]

Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, we have no problem with the recommendations on Sports and Recreation because that was just a misclassification. In actual fact, it gets to show that people of integrity like the late Makhenkesi Stofile wherever they were involved with the fiscus, they never got their hands in the cookie jar. So, that one we don’t have a problem with because we can prove that it did go into the work of Sports and Recreation.

When we get to Dirco, who wakes up from home ...


... afike e-ofisini aphumeze ukuba kusetyenziswe izi-R2,5 yezigidi kurentwa i-ofisi engahlali mntu.


We sit here and say it’s irregular expenditure. No, it’s not irregular expenditure but its thieving. You steal and you find ways to channel that money to.


Asisayi kuhlala apha sibe sikhumsha ngokusetyenziswa kwemali gwenxa, abantu mababuyise imali kwaye thina apha ePalamente yeyona nto siyifunayo. Le mali asisayi kuyisulela komnye umntu ukuba ayihlawule kwaye leyo into asisayi kukhuthaza.

Umphathiswa weSebe lobuDlelwane baMazwe ngaMazwe neNtsebenziswano awusoze umbone. Loo nto iyodwa nje ikuxelela ukuba ...


... there is no accountability in that department because ...


... akukho mntu oqeqesha abanye; akukho mlawuli jikelele okhathalele abanye kungekho kwagosa eliyintloko lezezimali (CFO) elikhathalele ingeniso yeli lizwe lethu.


Regarding Basic Education, it doesn’t matter if you accelerate or you don’t accelerate; you stop or you apply brakes. It does not matter.


Zonke eza zinto zibhalwe kwela xwebhu lokusetyenziswa kwemali gwenxa, ezafunyanwa nguMphicothi Zincwadi...


... most of them are based in the Eastern Cape. Let me tell you, in the Eastern Cape that ...


... izikolo zaphaya isezeziya zakhiwe ngezitena zodaka kodwa namhlanje nifuna size apha sithethe kamnandi sithi...


... the irregular expenditure of the Eastern Cape is a mistake. It is not a mistake.


Akukho zikolo; akuhlawulwa ziprojekhthi kwaye akukho ziprojekhthi ezongezelelekileyo (accelerated projects).


There is nothing happening.


Abantwana abafumani kutya kwaye abo bathe bakhelwa amagumbi okuphekela uyakufumanisa ukuba bakhelwa amatyotyombe amancinci apha ngaphakathi emasangweni esikolo.


What kind of a government would be proud if...


... yakha amatyotyombe emasangweni esikolo esithi yindawo yokuphekela abantwana leyo? Hayi ngekhe, asisayi kuhlala apha sivumele ezo zinto thina.


Regarding Cogta, the community development workers...


... abalawulwa ngamalungu ekomiti yewadi e-ANC apho kuqashwa kuphela ukuba ulilungu le-ANC. Ukuba uye wabonwa unxibe i-ovarolo ebomvu uza kuphuma kuloo nkqubo kodwa kusetyenziswa imali karhulumente. Asisayi kuyenza into yokuba sime apha sixoke sithi kukusetyenziswa kwemali gwenxa (irregular expenditure) ibe ibubusela. Nina ningamasela namaxoki kwaye niza kuyibuyisa imali qha. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, hon members, at the outset I just want to agree with what the chairperson of the committee has said. I am actually very proud to be a member of Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa. I believe it is one committee in this Parliament, which is 100% functional, particularly our commitment in ensuring that we hold people accountable and, of course, that has made sure that we lose friends along the way, but it is part of the duty. So, I just want to say to my colleagues and Scopa let us keep up the good work to what gives hope in the sea of corruption, administration, fraud and fair to manage the fiscus.

What is of great concern, hon Deputy Speaker, when we conduct these hearings, you find Ministers being shocked like us saying, “Oh!, I didn’t know that was happening in the department.” And then saying, “Thank you Scopa for this opportunity because I didn’t know.”


Kanti nenzani?


I think that the executive authority needs to help us in this regard because some of these things really happened under the watch of the Ministers. The disgrace is when the Ministers admit that they did not know. What do you know if you really as the executive authority ... even to have the most basic things unearthed by us at the end of financial year when the reports have come out. Where is the quarter-to-quarter reporting, which the audit committee should be looking at? Internal control should be interrogating so that they do not arise as findings.
So, I think the biggest indictment every time we have to deal with irregular expenditure and so on is actually on the part of the Ministers. It is high time that the

Ministers play ball with all due respect with the executive.


Sekela Somlomo angazi ukuthi kwenzakalani kwa-Cogta?


Cogta incurred the irregular expenditure of R1 billion in the 2015-16 financial year and the irregular expenditure was incurred because implementing agency for the community development workers, CDWs, project procured tools and materials without following supply chain processes. Payments were done without prior approval of deviations and obtaining the minimum number of quotations. Expenditure were incurred in contravention of supply chain management requirement. Now, if the national departments can’t get these basics right, how do the municipalities get it right ...


... uma konakele ekhanda? Ulindele ini laphaya phansi ezansi?


So, really the department must either shape up or ship out. Finally, hon Deputy Speaker, what I say is a plea to portfolio committees. Portfolio committees are not an extension of the executive. We must stop defending departments in portfolio committees. Let us hold them accountable so that they do their jobs and make it easier for Scopa.


Sesinezitha esingazazi ngenxa ye-Scopa. Sesiyazondwa kodwa ke siyoqhubeka sisiqhumise isitshwebhu niyeke ukuntshontsha imali yabantu. [Ihlombe.]

Declarations of vote (cont):

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon deputy Speaker, we must say as the NFP that we have seen irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure have been running on unabatedly for the past ensuing years. Beginning with the 2013-14 financial year up to this financial year, we see that things are not changing. Just recently the Auditor-General, AG, reported that at least R46 billion could be accounted to irregular and fruitless expenditure, why?

If you look at Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, for instance, we note that most of the people employed there do not have the necessary requisite, skills and competencies for them to function, either as directors or in technical services. And if we have officials who are well-trained to do the job, you are bound to incur some irregular and fruitless expenditure. Moreover if you look at Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, MISA, it is supposed to be a very important unit but seemingly, officials who are there do not have the requisite skills, again, in order for them to function accordingly.

In the 2013-14 financial year we noted that about

R500 million could not be accounted for, or at lest some of the tenders were given to the friends of mayors and the friends of officials. Why is that happening and why is that uncapped? That again, speaks to the fact that we don’t have performance management as well as consequence management, and for as long as we don’t have these in place we are bound to have this.

A lot of money that should be assisting our communities out there, especially communities in rural areas, is wasted and does not go to them.

We have noted, again, in basic education that we have service providers and agencies that don’t perform the work whereas we have schools that are not in good conditions; our children are still educated under trees and we still have mud schools as well as no toilets in schools. It is all a plethora and myriad of issues and we have been speaking about these things, seemingly we don’t fins a solution, why?

Therefore, as the NFP we welcome the report by Standing Committee on Public Accounts, SCOPA, and unless we have consequence management, why would a municipal manager or a director who has not performed well in another municipality could be migrated to the other department or another municipality? These are all the shenanigans that we need to deal with if we want to get things right.

There is no reason at all for our children to have education under trees. As we speak now, some of the

schools have been ribbed off by the storms and they need to be built again; money is not there or money will come back to Treasury, which means that there is never accountability. All these that I have referred to are all the issues and shenanigans that we need to deal with.

When it comes to international sanctions [Time expired] why do we have offices that are not used? These are the issues that we need to attend to. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Ms N P KHUNOU: The Auditor-General has reported

R46,4 billion which was incurred by various departments due to irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to reiterate the words of our chairperson of “something drastic has to be done by this Parliament”. Disciplinary actions should be taken against all officials who misappropriated funds.

The example that they spoke about in Department of International relations and Cooperation, Dirco, where you find that R2,1 million has been paid to an unoccupied

office is really problematic and this is where we are saying “we need to deal with the accounting officers”; there are no systems in place in Dirco and this is one of the problems that we have experienced throughout the years and it’s about time that we have those systems in place. The official who authorised R2,1 million without occupying those offices, it’s about time that consequence management should take place and anyone found guilty should be jailed with proper sentencing because it’s a problem; those who are on the wrong side of the law usually don’t get the appropriate sentencing.

When we talk about basic education – which is one of our most important departments in government – an implementing agency is been given a big contract without proper bidding. Deputy Speaker, it’s a problem, it’s wrong and we are saying as the ANC that appropriate steps should be taken; and the guilty ones should be dealt with harshly. We cannot have an irregular expenditure of
R2,2 billions as far as basic education is concerned. We cannot have an implementing agency and after that there are no proper ways to check, monitor and oversee the

project that government is giving this implementing agency.

Hence as the ANC we’re saying oversight and monitoring are very key and all of us have a duty of ensuring that all that happens as it is supposed t.

We have signed a contract with our people that we’re going to give them proper service delivery; and if we don’t plan properly, if we have irregular expenditure that is escalating yearly we’ll find out that a lot of budgeted projects will never be implemented, because men and women employed in those positions are not committed to do what they’re supposed to be doing. The law has to take its cause.

Deputy Speaker, we are going to ensure that all the resolutions and recommendations that we’re putting in this House are taken seriously. We want to see the implementation of all these regulations together with the table staff. All the regulations that we have put here
... I think there’s a report in front of you ... we want

to see with immediate effect these regulations being implemented.

CoGTA has incurred an irregular expenditure of R1 billion due to municipalities that failed to deliver services to the people. People are given contracts without proper processes being followed; it’s a problem and it’s about time that we follow processes.

Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, is clear and it’s about time that people are put in jail. This time around, we’re saying when it comes to irregular expenditure we are not going to pay money that we’re not supposed to be paying as government. Any official that has misappropriated funds should pay back from their pension fund and if needs arises then they should pay from their pockets. We’re saying the guilty ones have to be jailed. I thank you. [Applause.]

Agreed to.




Mr D D GAMEDE: Deputy Speaker, firstly, the report of the committee on the oversight visit to Silvermine, the ANC rises to support the oversight report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans. The purpose of the visit was for the committee to be briefed on the functioning of the Naval Communication Centre at Cape Silvermine and the update on its status level and level of preparation.

The challenges that we saw on this visit was that the facilities were degrading, there is lack of funding for intruder-monitoring surveillance system in all remote systems, there is no cutting of alien vegetation and there is a lot of copper theft.

On the mitigation strategies that we proposed was that proper fencing as per the Department of Public Works’ specification project must be undertaken and also that we must have the surveillance system, access control and roving patrols and dog handlers.

We therefore, as a committee recommended the following: Strategic facility should have a status of a national key point to improve security; the committee should schedule a meeting with the Department of Public Works regarding upgrading the security arrangement at the facility; the involvement of defence works formation should be considered for a cost and time efficiency. The SA Navy is required to follow guidelines for the protection of the natural environment with regards to the removal of vegetation. Therefore, on this report of this visit, we support the adoption.

Then, on the portfolio committee’s visit to 2 Military Hospitals in Wynberg and Regional Works, we observed the following challenges: While the Intensive Care Unit, ICU, is fully equipped, there are no doctors to mend it; there is a challenge of retention of skills; the ill health of aging military veterans; the health needs are different to those of regular force members; medical inflation on goods and equipment; committed overtime is not in line with the regulation of the Department of Health; procurement of goods and with no adequate security to protect the structure.

The committee had the following recommendations: Discussions to take place with the Surgeon-General, chief of logistic and Secretary of Defence; addressing the issue of community service doctors in ICU; effective safeguarding of the hospital and capacitation of consumables for effective service delivery.

We therefore, request the adoption of the report on this visit.

On the other report to the visit to selected military bases and Council of Scientific and Industrial Research in Gauteng, we request that Parliament supports this report. What we noticed is that it will assist them in addressing procurement challenges through interaction with South African Defence Force, SANDF, and chief of logistic.

The department should tighten the contract with trained SANDF members to ensure that it gets a return on its investment. The department should communicate such successes to the public through its own departmental structures. The department is encouraged to accelerate efforts to address those policies that hamper the effective functioning of Operation Thusano and related activities.

The ANC supports the report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans on oversight visit to the selected military bases and Council of Science and Industrial Research in Gauteng. I thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, let me give you a chance now.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move that the reports be adopted, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, before we take the question of whether the reports are adopted, let’s give you the chance to declare. Who wants to declare? I noticed hon Chief Whip; I have played a different ball this time around.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S ESAU: Deputy Speaker, I would like to highlight few of the issues and concerns on our oversight visit. The DA however, also supports all three reports. The Silvermine Naval Base: Firstly, is a very strategic and is one of the unique communication centre in the whole of South Africa - there is no similar one. It is responsible for all monitoring of commercial civilian and military ships off the shore of South Africa - meaning monitoring the sea borders of South Africa. It also houses the joint tactical headquarters of the Western Cape, the Maritime

Air Radio Organisation; the Naval Co-ordination and Guidance for Shipping of SA Navy vessels.

Therefore, it’s a very strategic and very critical infrastructure for the defence and security of this country. The Lower Antenna Farm cables have all been stolen. There have been two or three reports already on that.

Now, the upper farm - which is higher up on the mountain

- on the hill has also been vandalised and the cables stolen. Effectively the naval communication centre is not functional at all and not able to exercise the necessary monitoring and surveillance of shipping off our shores.
So, there is a critical problem that we are facing that needs to be addressed.

Why this happens? It is not unusual. We find that the perimeter fencing ... There are holes in the fence. The gate that is a perimeter fence is gone. There are absolutely no patrols except on the day that the committee went to visit. There were dogs and cadets

standing all over the show. They were only there while we were there.

So, there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed and because this particular unit is not classified as a national key point or critical infrastructure that needs to be protected, it creates a huge problem besides the normal procurement issue and the budget of funding issues for this particular unit. The procurement issue and budget runs to all the issues and all the centres of facilities that we visited. So, that is a very urgent matter that needs to be dealt with. It has been brought to the attention of both the Secretary of Defence, SecDef, and the Minister’s attention.

Secondly, the two military hospitals facility was really a pleasure to visit and look at the refurbishment and upgrade. In comparison to 1 Military Hospital in Pretoria, 1 Military Hospital is really in a miserable state of affairs; leadership is lacking; procurement issue is the same and funding is the same. There is still a R1 billion to be settled before it can be completed.
The facility at 2 Military Hospital has been completed at

R887 million. We find that there has been an extension and of course, any extension is concern for us – it is an extension for 17 months on the facility at 2 Military Hospital.

However, 1 Military Hospital was started in 2006 and we don’t know when the end is inside. One of the key problems is because they require a medical technologist to write off or sign off certain machines before they can proceed. However, the problem was dealt with quiet effectively and efficiently at 2 Military Hospital without any problem and they were continued. So, we don’t even know until now what the improvement is on that refurbishment project. It’s a huge problem.

The other one of 1 or 2 Military Hospitals hasa state-of the-art ICU unit, fully fitted out. However, there are no doctors to run it. The community service doctors that use that facility have not been employed. They are gone.
There is no further employment. Between December 2016 and 2017 January, nine doctors were lost to the 2 Military Hospital. So, we are sitting with the facility that is locked.

At 1 Military Hospital, it is even worse; there are no theatres in place, no ICU, no high care, no neurosurgeons, no cardiologist because the facility is not complete. So, this is supposed to be a level four and a level three hospitals - that is supposed to see the VIPs, from the President, the VVIPs of other countries, the Ministers, the Deputy Ministers, all the most senior government or officials in the country and it does not have the facility.

All those are now being outsourced at a huge cost and therefore impacts detrimentally on all other services. Therefore, there is overspending and that creates a huge problem for others even the medical suppliers in addition.

In closure, the staff at 2 Military Hospital buy out of their pocket the sterilisation consumable and stock consumable that they need for operation, because it take so long to procure those consumable in order to do the operation or to see to the patients. This is the state of affairs. So, we are asking for SecDef and the Surgeon- General, to look and investigate this matter and see how

this can be facilitated and improved so that it can serve the country. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, the state of affairs in the Department of Defence and Military Veterans does not actually display the department itself as a department that is supposed to protect South Africa as a whole.

The Department of Defence, whose mandate is to protect the borders and citizens of this country, is one of the most under-funded and corrupt department under the leadership of Jacob Zuma and the ANC. While this has always been known on the oversight visit, the consequences it has on the military and our soldiers on the ground shows it’s everywhere to see. Their military bases housing weapons of war, which did not even have the most basic of security features are neglected.

Money allocated which is needed for basic features like proper security, fencing and other security features is stolen by senior officials and some Ministers here. That is why we have criminals walking into army bases,

stealing weapons and even copper cabling because money allocated for security has been stolen.

How can we expect the army to protect our borders when they themselves are not protected, when the money allocated for security get stolen by ANC senior officials. All of this is happening while Gupta-captured Denel continues to receive overpriced contracts from the department under the direction of the Deputy Minister, who reports directly to the Guptas and their corrupt leader.

Therefore, all recommendations made by this committee will be of little consequence as long as the department is used as a way for the Guptas and for the Zuma family to loot money from the state coffers getting into their pockets. That’s why the EFF rejects this report.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Deputy Speaker, 2 Military Hospital in Wynberg is the principal hospital for our armed forces and military veterans situated in the Western Cape and beyond and further services high volumes of patients. As a major medical asset of the SANDF it is imperative that

it remains of the highest standard in operational readiness.

Its recent refurbishment ensures that the hospital and its services will remain a state of the art establishment and effectively deliver on its mandate to our service men and women, both current and retired. Concerns remain around skills retention and the filling of posts. In this regard, its centralised command seems to create more of a hindrance and delay in the appointment of new doctors and this must be addressed no matter how technologically equipped the hospital is; without the necessary skilled doctors in attendance, service delivery to patients will remain slow and possibly substandard.

Concerns were also raised over consumables and pharmacy stocks which did not hold the required three months of service stocks as well as an intensive care unit that was not being fully utilised and the outsourcing of patient programmes because of skills incapacity.

In terms of the visit to the Silver Mine naval base and its ability and preparedness to provide effective

communication channels to our country’s armed forces specifically in light of recent reports of cable theft at the base; we support that immediate medication strategies be implemented by Department of Public Works in respect of perimeter fencing and surveillance systems. Guard patrols and access controls including K9 patrols are required. This base is a very strategic facility and should have the status of national key point.


Sekela Sihlalo, kulihlazo ezweni lakithi ukuthi kungathiwa kutshontshwa impahla yombuso, ikakhulukazi yombutho ovikela izwe. Kuyacaca ukuthi leli zwe liphunyukile esandleni sokuphathwa, abusekho ubuqotho nokwethembeka kanye nokwazi impahla efanelekileyo nedingekayo phakathi kwezwe. Kuyinselela enkulu eqembini elibusayo ukuthi lisukume liqondise lo monakalo owenzakalayo ezweni lapho khona abantu bethi uma betshontsha noma beba baze babe nezinto zomutho okuyiyona ophephisa impilo yethu. Yize kunjalo umuntu uyawuxhasa lo mbiko. Ngiyathokoza.

Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon Deputy Speaker, several problems and challenges were identified by the portfolio committee during the oversight visits and we support the recommendations and observations made by the committee. The NFP shares the concern of the committee regarding the low overall staffing level at 2 Military Hospital which is at a mere 52.6%. As reported no service community doctors have been employed by the hospital since the beginning of 2017 leaving a perfectly functioning ICU idle because of this decision.

We agree that it is completely unacceptable that a fully functioning facility is left standing idle whilst outsourcing comes at a huge price. We also urge the department to heed the call for expediting the purchase of medical consumables in particular to enhance the effectiveness of the services delivered by the hospital. We are also in agreement with the observations and recommendations pertaining to the regional works unit based at Youngsfield.

It is encouraging to read a positive report which is a welcome change for many others who are less satisfied.

Thus the NFP is of the opinion that officer commanding and staff of the unit deserve acknowledgement.

The report of the oversight visit in Gauteng also contains sufficient cause for optimism despite some pertinent challenges which the committee identified and addressed in the recommendations. In particular we share in the concerns expressed by the committee regarding the challenges faced by the SA Air Force and urge the department to give serious considerations to the various recommendations contained in the report in this regard. Similarly, we share in the concerns about the ability and readiness of the spatial forces to execute their tasks when taking into consideration the continued decline in capacity and an increase in operational requirements.

The NFP believes that it is imperative that attention be paid to capacitating the Special Forces to meet the goals of the defence review and that the recommendations of the committee contained in this report be given serious consideration. Thank you.

Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support the reports and I must say that indeed when we were visiting these different areas in Gauteng we found some challenging matters and we interacted with the department after the presentations we got and we agreed that the manner in which we can address these issues is the way in which we can put the program that can deal with these issues. Hence there are recommendations that speak on how to address these matters and that is why we say as the ANC we support these issues.

If you can check on the visit to the Silver Mine Naval Base, there are clear challenges such as the degrading facilities, lack of funding, cutting and alien vegetation, copper theft, etc. All those issue when you go down to the report you will find a way of how these issues are going to be addressed. As a portfolio committee we agreed with the recommendations that these matters can only be addressed in this way.

We will give support to the portfolio committee to deal with these matters but I will differ a little bit on the issue of the status quo of the defence, that the country

is not safe. The country is still safe. It is just minor challenges that must be addressed and the leader of this department is on the way of addressing those issues.
However, I do not think that it can be proper for us to talk about issues like Corruption, issues like the President and whatever because in our visit we never saw such things. But I say that we support the report. Thank you very much.


(Subject for Discussion)

Mr N T GODI: Hon Deputy Speaker, comrades, hon members, members of the APC in the gallery and the students from the Cape Peninsula University of Technology who are here with us, you are heartily welcomed. The responsibility of leaders is to always find solutions to the challenges that face the people. The dialectics of seeking solutions lie in making concrete analysis of concrete situations summing up experiences and having the courage and honesty to take correct measures whilst dialectically confirmed

even when they vary with long-held and cherished positions.

The substantive challenges facing our people are underdevelopment and how to use public funds in the right way for the right things. These twin challenges we believe find their expression and are enabled by our governing structures as they have performed since their inception, specifically provinces and district municipalities. They have proven themselves to be havens of corruption and inefficiency. They are an unnecessary drain on the fiscus, a bottleneck to service delivery and development. Nothing so far can mitigate for their continued existence.

We therefore make a call to the House and to the people of our country to find a common perspective for provinces and district municipalities to be scrapped. Let us have a two-tier system, national and strong empowered local government. This will release both human and material resources to strengthen local government and service delivery to the people rather than it being swallowed up by the bureaucracy instead of developmental projects.

Yes, a few people might lose some political titles, but it is the people who will benefit; their lives improved, realising in material sense, the promise of freedom.

There has never been a coherent and convincing conceptual argument about why between national and local government there should be these two other levels, the provinces and districts. When we fought for freedom, we wanted a unitary state. Provinces as outcomes of negotiations are but one of the many compromises that had to be made.
Before 1994 we had 13 toy Parliaments, now we have 11 Parliaments.

Provinces are a political scandal that entrenches tribalism and regionalism. They are fundamentally not far removed from the logic of the homeland system. With the scrapping of provinces and district municipalities, billions of rands will be freed to address urgent and genuine needs of our people. We are saying we have no money for free education but I am sure the students will now know where the money is. If we scrap these provinces there would be money and these students sitting here have

been threatened with financial exclusion next year if they will still be owing.

Preschool teachers who are not being paid and are not working in good conditions of service as well as home- based caregivers and secretaries to traditional authorities, the rural areas that need development, the informal settlements with their dehumanising conditions, all of these point to the fact that we need to look at where money is being wasted. We believe that any argument in favour of retaining provinces and districts is self- serving and has nothing to do with the interest of the people. Just look at the inconsistencies in implementation and policy. If you look at the issue of home-based caregivers, the ones in Limpopo were given letters last week stating that as from next year their contracts will not be renewed because they are redesigning how primary health care is going to be administered, which is totally inconsistence with what is happening in other provinces. If you look at junior traditional leaders in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and Limpopo and you look at what is happening in other provinces, there is no consistency, simply

because of the difference in provinces. If you look at secretaries of traditional authorities in Limpopo, they are all employed by Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, but if you go to other provinces, it is a completely different practice. If you look at education, sometimes it depends on which province you live in. If you look at the dysfunctionality in the Eastern Cape, Limpopo and Mpumalanga - not that the other provinces are any better - but the unevenness which is a result of the substantiveness of the administration in those particular provinces mean that this uneven development will perpetuate. So, as the APC we call on those who love their country and its people to say that our Constitution, Chapter 6 and 7, I think, must be amended to strengthen governance and have a strong local government and a central government driving development in the interest of our people. Thank you very much and I look forward to your support. [Applause.]

Mr N A MASONDO: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members, fellow citizens, the Constitution of the Republic of SA and the relevant legislation provide for the powers and responsibilities of the three spheres of

government, namely local, provincial and national. In addition, the Constitution, which is the highest law of the land, stipulates and clarifies the concept of the separation of powers.

Our position is in agreement with both the Constitution and the relevant legislation. We do however wish to note the following: that the functioning of district municipalities, their overall co-ordination with local municipalities, and their challenges and achievements continue to remain a focal point of interest; and that the developmental role of district municipalities continues to be explored by various stakeholders as we grapple with the question of how to deepen and advance growth and progress.

In our view, the South African model of local government, as we have said before, remains one of the best in the world. This is so, precisely because the powers and functions as well as the responsibility of local government are clearly outlined in both our Constitution and relevant legislation. This is not the case in many countries elsewhere in the world. Furthermore, the

position of district municipalities has evolved from a vaguely-articulated institution into a fairly-matured structure meant to leverage development from a dialectical link with local municipalities.

District municipalities have also been seen by many analysts and experts as providing a solution to the question of underdeveloped rural areas. Therefore, this has been seen as an answer to the need for the provision of services. Some have argued, as Albert Venter and Chris Landsberg have done in their book Government and Politics in South Africa:

Whether it is truly the function of traditional local government to address the backlogs in rural areas, or whether they should primarily be the provincial or even a national government function.

The roles and responsibilities of provincial legislatures need to be reviewed. The debate on this matter is not where it was a decade ago. This debate has steered away from whether we should have provinces to a nuanced understanding of the complexities of co-operative

governance. Co-operative governance extends to and is applicable to both district and local municipalities.

This relationship is meant to be dynamic. At this level, these local government structures are expected to complement one another. None should be seen to be taking over the powers, functions and responsibilities from the other. According to the White Paper on Local Government, they are meant to: ensure integrated developmental planning; engage with infrastructure agents including in the planning and development of bulk infrastructure especially in non-metropolitan municipalities; ensure the provision of technical assistance to local municipalities including the facilitation and shared specialised capacity; share equipment between municipalities, thereby assisting in the preparation of budgets and the consolidation of municipal infrastructure programmes and application; ensure the co-ordination of national and provincial capacity-building programmes; and ensure the existence of and the actual location of support and training infrastructure.

Chairperson, it is also important to note that the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act of 2005 further clarifies the foundation laid by the Constitution, that the working relations between and within spheres of government should be characterised by good intergovernmental relations and an enhanced co-ordination across the three spheres of government.

Historically speaking, it is important to acknowledge that there are huge backlogs due to our apartheid past as well as the spatial planning encounters which all local government practitioners and role-players continue to contend with. In the broader context, we should consider having fewer provinces, lesser districts and more local municipalities with a focus on development. Such local governments should be properly funded. These municipalities should always seek to be effective and efficient in dealing with all the critical tasks and responsibilities.

In conclusion, we in the ANC have always argued that government should be brought closer to the people and that there is a need to fight poverty, bloated

administration, ethnic conflict and corruption. Over and above this, we always argued that South Africa requires ongoing efforts to build national unity and deepen reconciliation. We believe that, if the right balance is struck with regard to the powers, responsibilities and functions in addressing the provincial, district and local municipalities, we shall have gone a long way in addressing some of the challenges which continue to afflict governance in South Africa. I thank you.

Mr S M MALATSI: Thanks Speaker. It is quite surprising that today's motion for debate came from the left side of this House when it is an argument that is being propagated by this side of the House. At a time when opposition parties are realigning throughout the country to shape coalition governance, it is perhaps regrettable that another opposition party would bring into question the essence of provincial and local governments. However, this is not surprising because the hon Godi and his 17 supporters have come to represent that. Out of touch with reality and devoid of original ideas, they have resorted to remixing the old arguments, hoping for a hit to resurrect their political relevance.

However, if we were to strip this motion of all the pretence and posturing that it is manicured in, we would realise that it is nothing more than an attempt to consolidate the ANC's power in provinces where they will soon be voted out of government. This debate would not be happening if the ANC never lost the Western Cape in the first place. It would not be happening if the ANC never lost the City of Cape Town, nor the City of Johannesburg, and Tshwane and Nelson Mandela Bay.

Our Constitution makes provision for three spheres of government which gives voters the freedom to choose the government they want at national level, provincial level and local government. This empowers voters to reward governments that deliver by re-electing them into power and by firing those that don't deliver as we have seen with this side.

So, any move that seeks to question the future of provinces and their powers threatens the democratic right of South Africans to choose governments of their own choice. It further seeks to keep South Africans trapped in the bondage of poor service delivery by the ANC. It is

through the power of the provincial vote and local government that the people of the Western Cape and other municipalities that are under opposition government have chosen governments that work for them. As we have seen since the election of the DA in the Western Cape in 2009, once voters have seen the DA difference there is no turning back.

Simply because the ANC governs badly in Limpopo and the Eastern Cape is not a legitimate argument to say that we should reduce the powers of provinces. We shouldn't allow your failures to mislead us into concluding that the structure and the infrastructure of local government is not working, because there is no better way to show that provinces can function better than in keeping the ANC out of power.

The reality is that there is nothing wrong with our provinces which can't be fixed by good governance, as the DA continues to demonstrate. In the Western Cape Department of Education for example, we have consistently demonstrated that it is possible to build quality schools, to invest in teacher training in poor areas and

to hold principals accountable, without being afraid of Cosatu and the SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, by improving the quality of education. As a result of these interventions, the matric pass rate in quintile 1 up to quintile 3 schools has increased from 75% in 2009 to
86% in 2016.

The Department of Health in the Western Cape continues to be a shining example of providing access to primary health care through building world-class hospitals that are properly manned by qualified medical professionals.
Whether you like it or not hon member, those are facts. This year alone the Department of Health in the Western Cape has established over 2 500 alternative sites for the delivery of chronic medication to patients so that they don’t have to travel long distances to access their medication; because where we govern we value the quality of life of the people that we are delivering to rather than using state resources to fight factional battles.

Where the DA is in power, we are demonstrating that it is possible to open the tender adjudication meetings to the public, pay contractors on time and empower emerging

contractors. Since 2014 for instance, over 80% of the tenders that have been awarded in the Western Cape provincial government have been awarded to black businesses. It is the success of these governments that shows that what we need are more provinces in the hands of opposition-led coalitions by the DA rather than in the hands of the ANC.

So, the 2019 election will be about two choices. It will be a choice between the DA's record of delivery against the ANC’s record of scandals in government. It will be a choice between the DA's offer of a new beginning of change and the ANC’s same old broken promises. It will be a choice between the DA's sound financial management and the ANC’s legacy of wasteful expenditure. It will be a victory of ethical leadership over a political dynasty blessed by the Guptas.

The winds of change that are blowing the ANC out of government in municipalities and tertiary institutions all over the country are unstoppable. They are instilling a breeze of fresh air that is improving the quality of

life of South Africans who can testify that life is indeed better under a DA government.

From the Seshego Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, College where the DA Student Organisation, Daso, won the majority of seats last month, to the University of Cape Town where Daso is now rightfully back in the students’ representative council, SRC, more and more young people are choosing the DA's offer underpinned by the values of freedom, fairness and opportunity.

It would be remiss of me not to pay tribute to the memory of our deceased colleague, our friend and fellow democrat, hon Tarnia Baker. Those of us who were fortunate enough to work closely with her witnessed how she combined her fierce resolve and relentless compassion to make a difference wherever she served. Her legacy and that of other colleagues who have lost their lives in the line of duty should be a reminder to all of us that we have a massive responsibility to make our democracy work.

So, notwithstanding our political differences, we dare not take the privilege we have to serve our country for granted. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms N V MENTE: Thank you Speaker. Indeed, may the soul of Tarnia Baker rest in peace.

The topic we are debating with regard to the relevance and effectiveness of provinces and district municipalities in our system of government is one that must be taken seriously. We must ask a question, what is it that they must do? However, in the transition from an apartheid, racist whites-only government divided into Bantustans and along tribal lines, to an all-inclusive unitary state, provinces were ideal in-between structures to bridge the gap between national and local government. The Constitution makes it clear as to what each sphere of government must do, their independence and co-operation with each other.

However, with reflection after more than 20 years of experience, all evidence clearly shows that provinces have not added any meaningful value to service delivery,

and as the EFF we are concerned about the division of revenue formula that allocates more money to provinces than municipalities.

Provinces have failed to deliver water. That is why the national department took over the Nandoni water infrastructure project to deliver water to the people of Giyani. Provinces have failed to deliver decent education, as we have seen in the Eastern Cape where billions of rand have been returned whilst children are still in mud schools. Provinces have failed to add value to the delivery of sports infrastructure. Provinces have failed to deliver houses, and national government had to take over. Provinces do not add value to sanitation, to food security, and to safety and security. Instead, we have a glorified administration that costs taxpayers billions of rand while local government is poorly funded.

Local government is the sphere of government that is close to the millions of our people. To many people, when they speak of government they speak of municipal offices, schools, clinics, hospitals, nurses and teachers they interact with on a daily basis. Local government

institutions and people at the forefront of service delivery ...

As the EFF, we have long called for a radical change in the allocation of the division of revenue. Municipalities must get the majority of the R441 billion which is currently allocated to provinces. The majority of administrators appointed in provinces must be appointed at municipalities to build proper municipal administrative capacity.

Municipalities must have enough money to appoint engineers, to appoint planners, to appoint artisans and cleaners, and to build proper capacity.

Municipalities must be given the full responsibility to build houses, to build roads, to build sanitation and water infrastructure, and to deliver primary health care. Municipalities must be given the full responsibility with sufficient resources to be at the forefront of service delivery.

While we call for the changing of the constitutional mandate, for municipalities to do more and for provinces to do less, the ANC must not think that we are making this call to support their 2012 misguided attempt to reduce provinces to a number that will leave them in power in all provinces.

The ANC does not have the capacity or sophistication to restructure government and we are all well aware that all that is left for them in provinces is to steal taxpayers’ money. The fact of the matter is that 2019 is coming; the EFF is going to be government. [Applause.]

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Speaker, in 1993, as the interim Constitution was being finalised and before the first draft was tabled for approval, the IFP noted that no provision had been made for provinces in the interim period between 1994 and 1999. It was, in fact, the IFP that insisted on and was successful in ensuring that Parliament reconvene in March 1994 to not only entrench provinces for the interim period but also to amend powers of the Constitutional Assembly, which at the time, sought to reduce provincial powers.

It is trite knowledge that the entire notion of provincial constitutions originated from IFP proposals, contributions and position papers. In short, we would not be having this debate today were it not for the IFP holding out against a then-ANC position which was strongly in favour of full centralisation of power at the expense of any significant measure of provincial autonomy.

It was Dr Mario Oriani-Ambrosini who negotiated with Mr Valli Moosa the list of provincial powers accorded to provinces in terms of the Constitution. At the time, Mr Moosa was quietly confident that he could accede to many of Oriani-Ambrosini’s list of provincial powers and demands, as he was under the impression that the Constitutional Assembly would simply throw back the concessions at a later stage. This would have been the case had the IFP not forced the new language of Constitutional Principle XVIII.

It is vital that government occurs close to the people. Ivory towers of centralised government are despotic relics of the past. Democratic governance requires a form

of co-governance, together with the people. The decentralisation of power is not only an effective form of checks and balances against the abuse of power, it also ensures that provincial, district and community needs are identified and met. The IFP fully supports a government that is close to the people and that works together with them in partnership in building a sustained and prosperous future.

In terms of caveats, we have only one. There are, perhaps, too many municipalities. A reduction in this instance could be looked at – a reduction, but never a cessation and centralisation of power.

In conclusion, the IFP will continue to support a model of provincial and local government structures where communities, working together with government, will determine their futures. I thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Speaker, the NFP is of the opinion that both our provinces and district municipalities are relevant in our system of government. We have no doubt that the drafters of our Constitution investigated

several options before deciding on the current configuration to devolve government geographically. The aim of a tiered system of governance is to bring government closer to local communities, to bring service delivery closer to the electorate.

In our view, these spheres of government have a pivotal role to play in creating an enabled environment for core basic services and infrastructure development. Basic services relating to clean drinking water, roads, dignified sanitation, adequate housing and electricity infrastructure are basic human and socioeconomic rights and our provinces and district municipalities have a definite and clear role to play in realising these rights.

Inasmuch as provinces and district municipalities are relevant and necessary in our system of government, we cannot deny that these tiers of government are not as efficient as was envisaged when our Constitution was drafted. In the first 10 or so years after 1994, the newly established district municipalities performed fairly well, even though we were charting unfamiliar

waters in government. I do not mean that they were perfect. They were not, at all.

The declining performance of our spheres of government gained momentum as the governing party started its programme of systematic cadre deployment in earnest. The effects of this programme resulted in an exodus of skilled civil servants and municipal officials to be replaced by cadres who were not skilled or competent, at all.

Soon after this change of the guard, corruption, nepotism and greed crept in. Resources were diverted to individuals instead of people and the first of our ever- growing phenomenon of violent service-delivery protests started gaining momentum. Sadly, the lack of punishment for graft and corruption has resulted in a culture of flagrant financial mismanagement with impunity. Our descent into dysfunctional governance is fast becoming a tsunami.

The NFP believes that if you want to turn this tsunami of governance malfunction around, we must first find ways to

work within the existing spheres’ framework available to us. A good starting point would be the introduction of performance and consequence management in all spheres of government. In addition, we recommend that competence, skills and merit be the yardstick by which appointments are made to ensure good and clean governance. Another important aspect which we recommend and which needs to be addressed is efficient financial management. Greater weight and importance should be attached to the reports of the Auditor-General, and clean audits should be non- negotiable at all levels of government.

Finally, South Africa needs commitment from those in government to serve the people. The obstacles and challenges in government we are faced with do not lie in the structure of government but in the people who are tasked to make the structure work. If there is no change of heart in the people who are causing the lack of efficiency and lack of service delivery, no amount of structural change will circumvent government’s further slide into failure and collapse. We need the right people in the right places to make government work. That is a

massive challenge facing us, as South Africans, today. Thank you very much, Speaker.

Dr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Speaker, hon members, from the beginning, the preferred system of government by the majority in negotiations was a unitary state or unitary system with a strong, capacitated central and local government.

The introduction of provinces was a compromise to accommodate the fears of the minority groups. This has proven to be ineffective and a place to dispense patronage without any relevance to service delivery.
Similarly, the district municipalities are just a buffer zone with no clear-cut service-delivery objectives, except in some being responsible for the co-ordination of the provision of water and sanitation. Like the provinces, they do not have their own constituencies or revenue base, and are dependent on the national and local fiscus and statutory grants.

South Africa’s triple challenges of poverty, unemployment and inequality require decentralisation and the

strengthening of local authorities. What we have done so far has been to create glorified homelands, bigger in size but with the same body and shape that mirror tribal, racial and ethnic character. We must strengthen the capacities of both central and local government to reinforce measures to eradicate corruption and ensure greater transparency, efficiency, accountability, responsiveness, and community participation in the management of local resources.


Ukuba uya ngaphaya ezilokishini, ngapha kooKayelitsha uya kufumanisa ukuba lama tyotyombe ayekhona phambi kokuba sivote awakasuswa. Loo nto ithetha into yokuba olu xanduva lwamaphondo lokuphuhlisa alwenziwa kakuhle. Imali ayayinikwa kodwa ingayi kule ndawo kufuneka iphuhlise kuyo. Uya kufumanisa ukuba le mali iyajikwa iye kuphela kwiindawo esele ziphuhlisiwe okanye loo mali bayinikiweyo ijikwe isetyenziswe ekuthengeni izikipha zamaqela opolitiko. Mayiphele loo Krisimesi ngoku bafana bam.
Mayiphele ithi nyaa.

Sifuna ukuqinisekisa ukuba kuqiniswa oorhulumente basemakhaya siphinde sibe nabaPhathiswa abanamandla abawuqondayo umcimbi hayi aba bamane behlengahlengiswa ngobusuku. [Kwahlekwa.] Namhlanje ekuseni uyabuza uBlade kuba ubona iimoto zingafikanga zizomlanda. Uyabangxolisa ukuba kutheni bengamlandi nje. Kuthiwa hayi mhlekazi uphelelwe. [Kwahlekwa.] Nincede nindibulisele kumhlobo wam kufuneka ndiye kuphunga ikofu naye. [Kwahlekwa.]

Ms N MTHEMBU: Speaker, let me greet all fellow South Africans, hon members and guests in the gallery. I would like to start by condemning the ill discipline that we witnessed yesterday at Govan Mbeki Municipality.
Protesting and demonstrating is indeed a constitutional right, but burning of facilities and properties is lawlessness and it is condemned with the contempt it deserves. We note that this was an illegal march and we urge the law enforcement to intervene.

The debate takes place during an important month, the birthday month of a selfless leader “ubabu”[father] Oliver Reginald Tambo who understood the meaning of

vocation when he chose to be a people's liberator, and I quote him having said:

I had other plans for my life. I wanted to be a minister of the Anglican Church with Bishop Clayton. After we married I was going to train for the ministry in Cape Town. But God had other plans for me. God’s plan was for me to fight in the political liberation for my people.

In celebrating the memory and the contributions of this astute leader of times, it will be important that I remind the House and the nation at large of where we come from as people in terms of the government and the restoration of people’s dignity as is enshrined in our Constitution. Before 1994 South Africa had fragmented administrations. This meant that citizens were divided geographically with different population groups living in different suburbs and areas and only a small minority of residents benefited from development. Now South
Africa has a unitary, yet decentralised, state.

During the Convention for a Democratic South Africa, Codesa, negotiations, the ANC proposed a new vision and a new framework for provincial governance, called co- operative governance. According to the ANC the federalism and centralism debate has for some time been stuck in a sterile and one-dimensional quantification of discreet national and provincial law-making competencies respectively. The ANC’s vision of co-operative governance in the relations between national and provincial government was guided by the following concerns. The government should be brought closer to the people. This implies elected regional governments. Local and regional government should have the capacity to make laws and apply laws in a way which is responsive to our diverse regional circumstances, needs and aspirations. This implies that regional governments must have the necessary original executive and law-making powers in the sense that they are conferred and guaranteed by the Constitution itself.

Geographic size and the level of economic and social integration in South Africa require a certain level of legal homogeneity. The creation of economically not

viable and politically autonomous units such as the Bantustans promoted economic irrationality, poverty, corruption, bloated and competitive bureaucracies and endemic political and ethnic conflict. South Africa requires to embark on a process of national unity, reconciliation and nation building. It furthermore needs to unite the nation and, without sacrificing the principle of democratic government at regional level, minimize divisions and conflict between regions, races, ethnic and linguistic groups.

In summary, the ANC identified the challenge of a system of provincial government as to provide for legitimate regional aspirations and needs without denying the context of overall national imperatives.

Section 151 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Act, Act 108 of 1996, provides for the establishment of the local government sphere as a distinctive sphere of government closest to the people it democratically governs - a sphere of government which is interdependent and interrelated with the provincial and national spheres of government. The Local Government:

Municipal Structures Act, Act 117 of 1998, as amended, provides for the establishment of local government in accordance with the requirements relating to categories and types of municipalities to be in line with the vision of democratic and developmental local government.

It will also be proper for one to make mention of the evolution of this sphere of government. Local government evolution in South Africa from 1652 up to 2000, when the second democratic local government elections took place, dealt with tremendous challenges of the past injustices. It is worth giving an insight into why local government took so long to transform, and to argue that the present democratic system is far better than the old system will be lying to ourselves if we would say it is not better. It is better than the old system and in terms of local governance and service delivery.

The first democratic system of local government in South Africa was established with accompanying legislation, much of which was informed by the seminal White Paper on Local government which introduced the concept of the two- tier system. The White Paper justified the need for a

cross municipal authority on historical grounds in order to respond to the apartheid spatial legacy and for practical reasons. Without a district level authority focused on redistribution there would be no incentive to change the patterns of marginalisation and exclusion apartheid had established.


Umphakathi mawungadideki ekutheni uhulumeni akahlangabezani nezidingo zabo, bacabange ukuthi ohulumeni bezifunda ababalulekile futhi nenjongo ayibonakali. Ukusungulwa kwalaba hulumeni bezifunda ukuthi kuhlangabezwe nezidingo zabantu ngokoMthethosisekelo wezwe nokuba kube khona ukulingana, ububha nokusweleka kwemisebenzi kuphele kube yindaba yayizolo, isithunzi sabantu sibuye futhi kube khona nenkululeko yezomnotho hhayi ngonyawo lonwabu kodwa ngendlela esheshayo [radical economic transformation.]

Izifunda kubanele ukuba zibe khona ngoba lo hulumeni usalungisa umonakalo owalethwa uhulumeni wobandlululo. Kunezindawo ezisemakhaya lapho izinsiza kanye nezingqalasizinda zingakabi khona, yilapho-ke lo hulumeni

wesifunda elekelela khona. Ukwazi nokulekelela ezindaweni okunezimayini khona akwazi ukuxoxisana nalabo abaphethe lezi mayini ukuba bakwazi ukuthi bahlangabezane nezidingo zemiphakathi abasebenza kuzo ekutheni benze izimpilo zabantu ukuthi zibe ngcono.

Ngizobalula kancane ngomasipala wesifundazwe ngokuthi ukusebenzisana kwawo uma bebambisene nezifundazwe benza lukhulu. I-Gert Sibande District Municipality kumanje iphansi emiphakathini yenza imisebenzi emihle lapho isifundazwe sikwaze ukukhipha imali eyizigidi ezingu-R1 ukuze la okungahambeki khona wenze imigwaqo ihambeke khona. Imigwaqo yenziwe, lapho kunemigodi khona imigodi ivalwe. Lokho kwenze ukuthi intsha yakithi ithole amathuba ngoba basebenzisana nentsha ikakhulukazi le esebenza ngokubambisana [co-operatives] ukuthi ikwazi ukuthola imisebenzi ekanye nokuthi nemiphakathi yayo ikwazi ukuthuthuka ngoba uma izingqalasizinda zilungisiwe kuyakwazeka ukuthi abantu basizakale. Uma imigwaqo ikahle, imikhiqizo ezabe itshalwe yilabo abasebenza emapulazini bazokwazi ukuthi bayihambise bayimikise emakethe ngemigwaqo ehambekayo.

Siyabonga kakhulu ukuthi isifunda sase-Gert Sivande sikwazile ukuthi sihlangane nesifunda ukuze bakwazi ukuthi babe nalolu hlelo kanye nemali abazoyikhipha ukuthi omasipala ababambisene nabo abangaphansi kwesifunda se-gert Sibande bakwazi ukuthi nabasha bakhona bathole imisebenzi.


Chairperson, districts are relevant and effective, but safe to say that there are challenges that may be affecting communities in a negative way – challenges such as corruption and capacity. Services must be provided in a constitutional and ethically accepted manner. I thank you.


Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Speaker, die mosie gaan oor dié vraag: Wat is die relevansie en die effektiwiteit van provinsies en distriksmunisipaliteite? Ek wil spesifiek oor die distriksmunisipaliteite praat. Om die vraag te beantwoord moet ons vir onsself vra waarom en waar distriksmunisipaliteite ontstaan het.

Dit het in die tagtigerjare ontstaan, want voor 1994 het die stadsrade of munisipaliteite beperkte jurisdiksiegebied gehad. Daar was dan baie gebiede waar geen munisipaliteit enige jurisdiksie gehad het nie. Dit was juis die doel van distriksmunisipaliteite om dan ’n breër kombers te vorm en om in daardie gebiede waar munisipaliteite nie die jurisdiksie gehad het nie, sekere ontwikkelinge te doen.

So, ek wil die agb lid van die ANC reghelp. Distriksmunisipaliteite voor 1994 was juis om landelike gebiede met dienste soos water en paaie te bedien. Dit was die bedoeling van distriksmunisipaliteite.

Na 1994, het ons die situasie gehad waar die Grondwet, in artikel 155, voorsiening maak vir drie katagorieë van munisipaliteite, waarvan een distriksmunisipaliteite is. Jou probleem is egter dat alle munisipaliteite vandag ’n grens het. Hulle grens aan mekaar. So, die stadsrade het daardie leemte gevul en die distriksmunisipaliteite het, in terme van ’n jurisdiksiegebied, eindelik basis oorbodig geraak. Al die munisipaliteite het nou jurisdiksie oor ’n bepaalde gebied, en die

verantwoordelikheid om te ontwikkel en te voorsien aan die behoefte van sy kiesrers.

Daar is 44 distriksmunisipaliteite in Suid-Afrika en ongeveer 500 raadslede word proporsioneel direk as raadslede verkies.

As ons gaan kyk wat die effektiwiteit van distriksmunipaliteite in Suid-Afrika op die oomblik is, dan sê die Vryheidsfront Plus dat hulle oorbodig geraak het. Dit is eintlik maar net nog ’n liggaam om kaderontplooiing te verseker, waar mense dan geakkomodeer word.

Ons standpunt is dat die mag nie meer gesentraliseer word nie, maar gedesentraliseer word na laer vlakke toe.
Munisipaliteite moet verklein word. Dit moet weer meer munisipaliteite word wat nader aan die kieser is. As hulle nader aan die kieser is, dan kan daar weer oorweging gegee word aan distriksmunisipaliteite.

So, die Vryheidsfront Plus is ten gunste van desentralisering, sodat die diens vir daardie bepaalde

munisipaliteit en sy kiesers gelewer kan word. Tans is dit klomp munisipaliteite bymekaar en dit stort in duie weens die onbevoegdheid van ANC raadslede. Ek dank u.

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker, with the demise of apartheid and the dawn of democracy, South Africa was afforded an opportunity to completely change and redesign our system of governance. We opted for a unitary, but decentralised state with three states of government operating within a system of co-operative governance.

It does not matter who contributed what idea and who objected to which idea. When we had agreed on the Constitution and adopted this set of principles, it was our collective duty to set out and ensure that we make a success of what we had collectively agreed on.

The first and critical element to keep in mind was that we should not have allowed government to become bigger but rather shrunk, so that the majority of the resources available go to the needs of the people. We started therefore with an executive under President Mandela that was about 28 Cabinet members on national level. That was

a Cabinet of national unity. So, he could not have made a smaller Cabinet, even if he wanted.

For purposes of that collaboration, this was done and it was agreed to. It was the only reasonable way to go because we needed to win each others confidence to advance into the future.

However, let us confront the reality. From then on, we allowed government at national level to expand to the extent that the executive, including Ministers and Deputy Ministers, is about 70 men and women today. That means instead of reducing the amount of money spent amongst the executive, we increased the amount of money paying people who are not actually productive and who are not directly delivering services to the people.

Expanding the number of departments increased the bureaucracy and put more money into our own pockets and into the bureaucratic sections. That was a failure of all of us. It was not the failure of one or the other because we allowed that.

The biggest blame sadly must go to the biggest participant, being the African National Congress. [Interjections.] At the beginning, but I soon moved out of there and decided that it is not the right direction. [Applause.] I accept that. I accept that.

We need to understand that we are the elected and representatives of the people. When we confront the problems of our country, we must forget for a moment what colours we wear and think what is in the best interest of the country.

I think that we can still correct this. If we want to go into the future, our country must find leadership that will confront that and that will say that the provinces have exploded. We have inherited local government that was actually volunteerism because the people that were at local government were not paid. They were essentially part-time workers. Today, if you look at the salaries of the people at local government, many even get more than the members of the National Assembly sitting here. There is something seriously wrong with that and we must correct it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. You may just now be accused of giving me more time although I never really get more time. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M P GALO: Hon Speaker, the complexity of this debate neatly reinforces the old mantra of statehood and its inherent injunction to preside over the affairs of government.

Our constitutional forebears deliberately and consciously chose a three-tier system of government. However, the parachuting of the so-called district municipalities in the arena of government has been cumbersome, effectively duplicating the core functions of local municipalities.

The AIC holds a strong view that district municipalities are highly cumbersome or burdensome to the national fiscus.

Although the local government sphere was initially out of the radar, its incorporation in the Constitution represented an early form of participatory democracy

through which the representation of the people was to be salient in the lawmaking processes.

The Constitution confers the provinces’ concurrent and exclusive powers to enact certain laws affecting them, including regulating their affairs on issues such as housing, education and healthcare with the national government.

Our view is that these government formations are tentatively effective to the extent that they fulfil their legislative and constitutional mandate.

The efficacy of provinces and local government structures is undeniably omnipresent, with regard to emergency services that are often not forecasted.

Since these structures are closer to the people, they have tended to benefit the locals, reinforcing their relevance to the nation-building agenda.

What we have just painted here, however, is an ideal dream that we had hoped these structures would master. And they have not.

The patronage that is dispensed in provinces and municipalities often affects the provision of services to the people.

Power struggle in the internal politics of an otherwise efficient governing party stifles and stunts growth, the allocation of resources and the distribution of social services.

The efficacy of provinces is also hampered by the fact that the budget allocation is a preserve of national government. To this end, provinces are not always able to meet their set targets and objectives.

South Africa missed an opportunity during the negotiation process to introduce the Financial and Fiscal Commission. This commission would have been tasked to recommend equitable fiscal and financial allocations to each province.

Furthermore, the relevance of these government structures has been eroded by corrupt, sleazy politicians.

The AIC is on record calling for the reduction of provinces to a sizeable, fiscal-driven margin, to protect taxpayers’ money from the predators and microbes of the state. At least, today you did not stop me. Thank you.

Mr K J MILEHAM: Madam Speaker, national unity, reconciliation and a federal model of government are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what hon Masondo may think.

The drafters of our Constitution had a clear intention when they created our system of governance. They did this to ensure devolution of function, responsibility and accountability to the sphere of government closest to the people, namely local government, and to put in place checks and balances to prevent the abuse of power.

It can be argued that there has been limited success in achieving this intent. In fact, the establishment of district municipalities has largely created a superfluous

fourth sphere of government. I say to a large extent because while we know of the many failing district municipalities across our country, the districts of the Western Cape, under DA governance, have demonstrated that where districts are well run, they do add value to the local municipalities.

Just to put it in perspective, for the last four years, every single DA-run district municipality has received an unqualified audit, and for the last two years, they have all been clean audits. Compare that to the O R Tambo District Municipality in the Eastern Cape, which wrote off R3,8 billion in irregular, unauthorised and fruitless and wasteful expenditure earlier this year - the year of O R Tambo, and in his birthday month, no less, hon Mthembu. And just so we’re clear, it’s not because of the legacy of the apartheid government; it’s because of the ANC government.

It should therefore come as no surprise that research by the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, in 2008 notes that 74% of all district municipalities are performing less than 50% of their

functions. I doubt whether that figure has improved much over the past 10 years.

Similarly, the argument for reducing the number of provinces made by the ANC at its national conferences since as early as 2007 is based on the dysfunctional nature and failure of a number of provinces to address the needs of their residents. It’s important to note the concession made by the National Treasury in this regard.

At a Cogta portfolio committee meeting last week, Treasury noted that the amalgamation of dysfunctional municipalities would not have resulted in an improvement in their viability or service delivery. In like fashion, the amalgamation of dysfunctional and failing provinces is unlikely to result in an improvement in their ability to perform.

Hon Mente, let’s be honest, it isn’t all provinces that have failed. It is ANC provinces that have failed. As an example of how good governance at a provincial level translates into better service delivery, consider the following.

Firstly, the Western Cape, under the Democratic Alliance, has consistently received unqualified audits. It is regarded by the ANC-led national government as the best performing province in South Africa.

Secondly, it has the highest level of access to water, flush toilets and electricity in the country. [Interjections.] It has the highest proportion of households receiving free basic water, free basic electricity and free basic sewerage and sanitation. [Interjections.]

Thirdly, we have brought the rate of mother-to-child HIV transmission down to the lowest in the country. [Interjections.]

Lastly, it has the lowest unemployment figures in the country ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! There is so much noise on both sides. I think the speaker cannot continue. Hon members, please, allow hon Mileham to finish. [Interjections.]

Mr K J MILEHAM: The Western Cape has the lowest unemployment figures in the country – some 8,4% lower than the next nearest province. This is because where the DA governs, we govern better. [Interjections.]

So, what would the Democratic Alliance do differently? For starters, and because of their general dysfunctional nature, let’s get rid of district municipalities. That would free up roughly R13 billion in the Division of Revenue Act, Dora, funding, which could be distributed directly to local municipalities to enable them to better deliver on the services they are responsible for.

The purpose of district municipalities is primarily to strengthen weak local municipalities, primarily in rural areas. They have, for the most part, failed spectacularly in this regard. So let’s do away with them and assign those functions directly to the local municipalities.

In addition, the DA would strengthen the oversight, intervention, monitoring and support role of provinces. We need provinces that intervene more quickly in problem situations, to support and assist municipalities to get

back on their feet. The key words here are “support” and “assist”. Too many municipalities are left floundering due to inaction or apathy on the part of the provincial government.

The current electricity crisis, whereby some 23 municipalities face throttling of their electricity supply by Eskom for a failure to address their electricity debt, is a very visible and pertinent example of an instance where the provincial governments have largely ignored the situation and left municipalities to fend for themselves.

Another critical element is the ongoing oversight, monitoring and evaluation of provinces themselves. In the three years of this Fifth Parliament, not one province’s finances have been reviewed, nor have any of their performance plans been considered. The department responsible, Cogta, seems to have washed their hands of the provinces completely.

Let’s be very clear about what we are debating here: The relevance and effectiveness of provinces and district

municipalities in our system of government. We have seen that good governance has a direct correlation to levels of service delivery. We have shown that where the DA governs, those spheres of government are both relevant and effective. And the other provinces and municipalities can be too, but only if we vote for change in 2019, change that removes the corrupt and replaces them with the clean and effective government that the DA brings.
The DA delivers for all South Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M S A MAILA: Hon Speaker, hon members and distinguished guests. A critical part of the ANC’s transformation agenda is to build a developmental state that provides effective basic services and the capabilities to take forward a far-reaching agenda of national and radical economic development while at the same time placing people and their involvement at the centre of this process.

South Africa’s first democratic government inherited a fragmented, unaccountable and racially divided governance system consisting of homeland administrations, national

and provincial administrations as well as separate local administrations for different racial groups. The homeland administrations were poorly organized and resourced. The homeland system did not have a focus on local government and the services they provided were determined by the apartheid state. The municipalities that were well- resourced and capacitated were in the urban areas and served the needs of the white minority.

The provinces were a product of a negotiated settlement. As part of the negotiated transition to democracy, it was decided to shape and develop a cooperative governance system with three spheres of government.

At the time of drafting the final Constitution, this multi-level form of government was seen as a way to secure peace, stability and to consolidate South Africa’s fledging democracy. A means to eradicate the inequalities created by apartheid and to kick-start the reconstruction and development of the country. An opportunity to design a model that would allow participatory democracy at all levels of government; and a way to provide for the fair

distribution of powers and functions across different spheres of government.

As a result, the 1996 Constitution provided for the three distinct spheres of government being the national, provincial and local. The three spheres of government are to be distinctive, interdependent and interrelated. The three spheres of government are obliged by the Constitution to cooperate with one another in mutual trust and god faith by amongst others fostering friendly relations, informing and consulting one another on matters of common interest, avoiding legal proceedings against one another.

The Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act was passed to ensure that the principles in chapter 3 of the Constitution on cooperative governance are implemented. The Act seeks to set up mechanisms to coordinate the work of all spheres of government in providing services, alleviating poverty and promoting development. The Act also provides a line of communication that goes from municipalities to provinces and to the national sphere.

As a result of the negotiated settlement, nine provinces were established. The system of wall to wall local government extending from dynamic metropolitan areas to the remotest rural areas was established in the year 2000. The Constitution conferred public authority on each sphere, which must be used appropriately and as a result, each of the nine provinces and each municipality have assigned positions and elections are held independently for each sphere.

On of the key challenges in managing the intergovernmental system has been the unevenness in the capacity of provincial and municipal administrations.
Provinces that incorporated former homeland administrations were weighed down by high levels of poverty and by the incorporation of dysfunctional homeland administrations. Similarly, municipalities operate with very different levels of capacity and some have major infrastructures backlogs to overcome. The Constitution and the policy frameworks are designed to take account this variation by allowing for differentiation in how responsibilities are allocated to each sphere.

The Constitution also states that provinces must receive an equitable share of the national revenue sufficient to meet their responsibilities.

The allocations to predominantly rural municipalities are twice as large per household as those to metropolitan councils. This distribution of resources provides an enabling foundation for the state. It allows for a broader transformation of services and opportunities in our cities, towns and rural areas. It funds the basic services and infrastructure needed to combat poverty and unemployment, improve living conditions and to stimulate economic growth.

Implementing this multi-level regime has been a major challenge. Provinces had to be established and municipal boundaries re-demarcated as the same time as other massive reforms necessary to make the political and institutional transition from authoritarian minority rule to democratic majority rule.

The fact that multi-level governance was the result of a peace settlement rather than of a careful analysis of the

costs and benefits of decentralization in a society such as ours has had important consequences for the operation of the system. In fact, it could be argued that the existing system has created significant obstacles to effective governance. However, this has not stopped the ANC government, in partnership with the people, to bring about substantive change.

In the past two decades, municipalities have delivered basic services to millions of households that did not receive those before. This has been achieved by expanding access to basic water supplies, access to basic sanitation and by providing electricity connections to millions of poor households.

The South African system of intergovernmental relations is complex and continues to evolve as better modes of cooperation and coordination emerge and as functions are shifted between the spheres. Despite many areas of success, there are still areas that require attention.
Although the Constitution sets out the distribution of powers and function between local and provincial levels of government, these are framed as high-level principles.

It remains an ongoing challenge to improve the functionality of the intergovernmental system and to clarify the roles and functions of the different spheres of government. The delivery of basic services must be prioritised at all levels. The system has to meet different needs ... cheers ... in different parts of the country, ranging from metropolitan areas with substantial financial, administrative and technical resources to remote rural municipalities.

The enormity of the developmental challenges and the severe fiscal and other resource constraints we are currently facing, requires all our spheres of government to work together effectively and efficiently towards a common goal. Chapter 13 of the National Development Plan, NDP, outlines the challenges in achieving a Developmental State. These challenges are caused primarily by weak forms of coordination and collaboration within and across spheres of government.

The ANC, from time to time, engages on this issue. Recently at our policy conference, we engaged on this

issue; so, to us this is not a new subject matter. Wa bona [you see].

The ANC has recognised the need for restructuring to address existing challenges and facilitate developmental governance and management. Therefore, despite the significant success of the ANC government in configuring the new state, there are still contested issues requiring review. This must be an empirical review of the current systems and structures: to address challenges; to facilitate developmental governance and management; and, to improve service delivery.

This review must be informed and well-researched. It must draw upon empirical research and expert views which will result in decisions being taken on the balance of scientific evidence.

This review must consider issues such as the functionality of the current intergovernmental system; the need for a review of the existing provinces; and the powers and functions of the different spheres of government and the impact on effective service delivery.

National and provincial government should continue to monitor and support local government in ways that strengthen municipalities; not erode their powers and functions. Provincial governments are expected to play a leading role in ensuring that economic planning, infrastructure investment and development spending take place. Provincial and local government must be repositioned to be more effective in provisioning of services to the people.

Now, hon Malatsi of the DA came to the podium and said nothing about the subject matter, bragged on something which the DA can never sustain ... wa bona [you see]... because in any way, this subject matter is for revolutionaries [Laughter.]; it is not a for reactionaries. [Interjections.]

Hon Mileham, I’m not surprised to hear you say that the legacy of apartheid is not an issue because his predecessors are beneficiaries of the apartheid system and therefore, to him it will not matter. [Applause.] It is useless to tell us about the unqualified audit of the Western Cape while people of Lusaka are still using

bucket system. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It is useless to tell us about your unqualified audit while the people of Khayelitsha are receiving lower services than their white counterparts. [Interjections.] Wa bona [you see].

Hon Mente, I believe that you will agree with me that you’re wrong to say that the ANC does not have the capacity to restructure government because it is only the ANC which is capable of restructuring government. [Interjections.] The ANC has a proven track record; because the ANC inherited a dysfunctional system which it made functional, which you are now part of. [Applause.]

Ms N V MENTE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member must not mislead the House, we are not part of the ANC. In 2012, you’re the one that propose things, you proposed six provinces, it’s your program you don’t have capacity.

The SPEAKER: Hon Mente, please take your seat, that’s not a point of order. Please proceed hon Maila.

Mr M S A MAILA: Hon Prof Msimang, you indicated correctly that the IFP was fighting but unfortunately you didn’t tell the nation that the IFP was fighting for the independent state of KwaZulu. [Interjections.]

Hon Lekota, he is crying foul saying that he is been giving enough airtime, because some time ago he thought he was in the wrong direction while he was actually in the right direction and getting enough airtime. [Laughter.] Now, I think it’s about time hon Lekota returns to the right place and get enough airtime. [Laughter.] Wa bona [you see].

Hon speaker, this issue of the relevance of provinces and district municipalities will continue to be an important subject matter which all of us must engage in, but central to that, would be that the people should get services. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr N T GODI: Madam Speaker, my appreciation to all those who participated in the discussion. I want to thank General Holomisa for his emphatic support for our position and perspective and acknowledge the AIC as well

as the FF Plus in terms of the principle, especially in relation to district municipalities. I think, Madam Speaker, the central issue that I raised was: Is there a substantive reason why they should be a middle structure between local and national government? Why should there be the provinces and districts? What is it that their absence would disrupt? We all say we want a government that is closer to the people. We are saying remove the district and the provinces and empower local governments. So, we agree in principle on that part. When it comes to implementation, I don’t think it’s intellectually dishonesty, but it is this thing of theory and practise colliding at times.

Now if you remove provinces and districts who is going to suffer? Is it the people or is it the elite? Our argument is that no, it is the people that are actually going to benefit. It cannot be that we should reduce from nine to seven, four or three - what is the scientific logic?
There is none. Fundamentally, I must say that the legislatures as they exist are the actual drain on the fiscus, the billions of rand that we need to service our people

Comrade Maila here mentioned these two lines, firstly “an acknowledgment that the current system is a product of a peace settlement not a product of a careful cost benefit analysis”. I am saying I have done that and it does not serve our political objectives. Secondly, he says the current system has created significant obstacles to service delivery. I agree and I am saying on that basis what has to be done is to scrap these things. I think that is the point.

Finally, I don’t want to leave without dealing with the political adolescents that played itself out here. The debate here is a product of the Third National Peoples Policy Conference of the APC of August 2017 - that is why it is here. [Interjections.] I want to tell you that you must go and check your members in Modimolle. We are launching a branch this weekend with DA members who joined us. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] On Saturday, I delivered t-shirts, membership forms and badges to your leader in Phokwane. So, just check Jane Furse to Nebo - let us see if you still have members there. Your members in Roossenekal have called us. We are sending comrades there on Friday. This morning, I got a call that your

members in Ivory Park are saying the forms we have given them are few. They need more. [Applause.] So, we are not 17, we are more than that. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms N P KHUNOU: The ANC moved without notice:

That the House -

notes with sadness the death of more than 300 people and the injury of more than 500 following a bomb blast at a junction in Mogadishu on Saturday,
14 October 2017;

believes that the truck packed with explosives exploded on a busy street near key ministries in

the Hodan district in the heart of the Somali capital;

remembers that buildings were flattened, vehicles set on fire and other structures blackened and destroyed during the explosion;

recalls that the Somali President on Sunday announced that the nation is in three days of mourning, with the national flag lowered at half- mast to honour those killed;

further believes that the attack is one of the most deadly in the decade since the Islamist al- Shabab group launched its insurgency in 2007;

condemns the use of violence and terror attacks to the innocent civilians as a form of registering any complaints or indifferences; and

conveys its condolences to the government of Somalia and all the families of the affected

people, and wishes the injured people a speedy recovery.
Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms H S BOSHOFF: Chair, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the House -

notes with concern the action by the MEC of Mpumalanga Department of Public Works, Roads and Transport in removing learners from the J B Khoza Primary School and Atherstone Ward 10 in Bushbuckridge on Wednesday 11 October;

further notes that these learners were removed from their classes at 10 o’clock to fill up the empty seats at a soil turning ceremony at the

opening of newly constructed road between Thulamahashi and Dwarsloop;

acknowledges that these learners were used as pawns by the MEC and her officials as they were unable to fill their venue with their own members due to constant factional infighting;

believes that the Constitution guarantees every learner the right to education and no one may compromise this right;

acknowledges that this incident once again highlights the disregard many in government had towards basic education;

            further acknowledges that the principal of the school must be reprimanded for allowing the MEC to interfere with the normal functioning of the school;

calls on the MEC for Education to engage with the MEC for Public Works, Roads and Transport for an

explanation as to why this was done without prior consent from the provincial education department;

condemns all action whereby learners are denied their rights to education and we commit ourselves to continue to fight to ensure that our rights of learners are not compromised.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired. If there are no objections, I put the motion. [Interjections.] There is an objection.


(Draft Resolution)


Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngiphakamisa egameni le-EFF ukuthi ngesikhathi esilandelayo sokuhlala kwale Ndlu:

Le Ndlu

ikhumbule ukuthi mhlaka zi-15 kuMfumfu bekuhlangana iminyaka engama-40 uThomas Sankara wafa enye yezingqalabutho zomzabalazo waseAfrika jikelele;

iphinde ikhumbule ukuthi uSankara wafa ebulawa yizicashalala zonxiwankulu efela ukulwela inkululeko yezomnotho yabantu baseBurkina Faso;

ibone ukuthi eminyakeni emine nje vo ephethe izintambo zombuso izinga lemfundo ezweni lenyuka ngamandla, ukufa kwezingane kwehla ngesivinini esingakaze sibonakale, izwe laseBurkina Faso lazikhiqizela ukudla lisebenzisa umhlaba owawusubuyiselwe kubaniniwo bokudabuka endaweni yakhona; futhi

ivume ukuthi lokhu nathi singakwenza lapha eNingizimu Afrika sibuyise isithunzi sabantu bakithi ngokubanika inkululeko yezomnotho. Mayibuye i-Afika.

Agree to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms N P KHUNOU: The ANC moves without notice:

That the House -

notes that 2017 marks the 25th anniversary of the declaration by the General Assembly of 17 October as the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty;

remembers that on 17 October 1987, defenders of human and civil rights from every continent gathered and paid homage to the victims of hunger, ignorance and violence;

further remembers that they affirmed their conviction that human misery is not inevitable and pledged their solidarity with all people who, throughout the world, strive to eradicate extreme poverty;

recalls that the Call to Action which was taken up and replicated in many countries has allowed people living in extreme poverty to break the silence of poverty and to act in solidarity with those who aspire to be their partners;

believes that these values are also evident in the United Nations’ Agenda 2030 for Sustainable Development which sets poverty eradication as the overarching objective and obligates all countries to end poverty in all forms, through strategies that guarantee the fulfilment of all human rights;

acknowledges the 2017 theme, “Answering the Call of 17 October to end poverty: A path toward peaceful and inclusive societies”; and

calls upon nations worldwide to heed the call by the United Nations and to honour the human dignity of people living in poverty ... [Time expired.]

Agreed to

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that since the outbreak of avian flu was first confirmed in the province of the Western Cape in August of this year, 2,5 million chickens and ducks have been culled;

further notes that as the country battles with avian flu, the shortage of eggs is expected to get worse with the Western Cape being the hardest hit;

acknowledges the birds are quarantined and then put down to prevent the spread of the flu and

about 70% of the retail shelves are soon expected to be empty;

further acknowledges this is a difficult time for our poultry industry as some farmers are faced with the possibility of having to close down their businesses and workers are worried about their livelihoods and being able to provide for their families; and

calls on government to make immediate and relevant interventions in the matter and to provide solutions in restoring confidence to the poultry industry for food security in general.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)


Mnu S C MNCWABE: Sihlalo ngaphambili, ngedlulisa lesi siphakamiso esingenasixwayiso:

Ukuba leNdlu –

yazi ukuthi mhla zingu-10 Okthoba 2017 endaweni yaseNquthu naseThekwini KwaZulu-Natal kwahlasela imvula enamandla;

yazi futhi ukuthi yayihambisana neziphepho nenkanyamba;

yazi nokuthi kwashona abantu abangamashumi nanye

[11] kwathi abanye basalahlekile namanje bengakatholakali;

yazi ukuthi izikole ezingamashumi amane nambili

[42] zalimala kanzima kulesi siphepho kanye kanjalo nezibhedlela eziyisikhombisa [7] ezalimala kakhulu, nempahla eyalimala yabantu neyakaHulumeni;

futhi mayazi ukuthi uHulumeni wa-KwaZulu-Natal umemezele isifundazwe sa-KwaZulu-Natal njengesehlelwe yinhlekelele;

idlulise amazwi enduduzo kubantu abalahlekelwe yizimpilo zabo kanye nalabo abangakatholakali, futhi

ikhuthaze uHulumeni wa-KwaZulu-Natal umgqugquzele ukuthi alungise impahla elimele ikakhulukazi izibhedlela kanye nezikole. Ngiyabonga.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that 2017 marks a significant moment in the history of Canada since the creation of the Canadian Confederation, called the Dominion of Canada 150 years ago;

further notes that the anniversary marks the year that the British North America Act was passed by the British Parliament, paving the way for colonies of Canada – which included Ontario and Quebec –to join Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in creating a single Dominion of Canada;

understands that the milestone is being commemorated across the country giving the Canadians the opportunity to celebrate the shared values, their achievements and the country’s place in the world;

commends the role played by some of Canada’s former Prime Ministers such as Lester Pearson, who founded the peace keeping mission as well as Brian Mulroney who received one of our national orders,

Companion of OR Tambo, for supporting the struggle against apartheid; and

congratulates Canada on their milestone and wishes them well in their celebrations.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that on Wednesday, 7 September 2017, marked the 25th anniversary of the Bhisho massacre, where
28 peaceful marchers were murdered whilst many more were severely injured for demanding the replacement of Brigadier Oupa Gqozo with an interim administration until the conclusion of constitutional negotiations which would have put

an end to the oppressive rule of the Ciskei military government;

further notes that the march was legally permitted by the courts and the National Peace Accord as a peaceful action to protest the lack of free political activity and the harassment of the people of the former Ciskei;

believes that the march was also about ending poverty, inequality and creating economic opportunities for all the citizens of the former Ciskei;

acknowledges that the government of the Eastern Cape has erected a memorial monument for the victims of the Bhisho massacre;

further acknowledges that while the monument cannot replace the lives of those who were killed, its existence immortalises their collective determination, contribution and commitment to the cause of freedom;

calls on government to double its efforts in helping the affected families to have access to decent housing, qualitative free education and job opportunities;

remembers those who fell on that dark day in September 1992 and commits to complete the work they started; and

may their souls rest in peace.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N Z MBHELE: Chair, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that 11 October was National Coming Out Day, a day observed annually around the world for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer, LGBTQ, awareness;

further notes that National Coming Out Day was founded in 1988 in the feminist and gay liberation spirit of the personal being political and premised on the foundational belief that prejudice against LGBTQ people thrives in an atmosphere of silence and ignorance;

acknowledges that "coming out" is one of the first and most powerful tools of activism because, at its most benign, prejudice and discrimination seeks to shame and demean LGBTQ people into silence and invisibility;

further acknowledges that the DA is the party with highest number of "out" MPs, MPLs and councillors in South Africa, demonstrating our embrace of diversity as one of the core values of liberalism and the Constitution; and

pledges solidarity with the aims of National Coming Out Day and vulnerable LGBTQ people around the world, as an affirmation of section 9 of the Constitution to which all members of this House have sworn loyalty. [Applause.]

Agreed to.


Nk S M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngedlulisa lesi siphakamiso esingenasixwayiso:

Ukuba leNdlu –

ifakele izibuko udaba lwekolishi laseMgungundlovu elisesindabeni kulezi zinsuku ngokubandlulula elikukhombise ngokufakela abafundi amacala ngokuthi bathwetshulwe bephethe izikibha ezibhalwe iqembu abalithandayo i-EFF;

ikwazi ukuthi abafundi amagama abo kungoOlwethu Shelembe kanye noYamkela Mbambana babekwe amacala kulesi sikole ngokuthi bezwakalisa ukuthi abasakwazi ukulinda kushaye u-2019 ukuze bavotele inhlangano yabantu I-EFF ukuze ibuyise umhlaba emaseleni;

ikwazi futhi ukuthi lomzamo ophashile walesi sikole wokuvala abafundi ukuthi bezwakalise ilaka labo kukhombisa khona ukuthi iziphathimandla zakhona ongxiwankulu abangazimisele ngokuzwa eminye imibono ngaphandle kwale abayifundisa bona yokucindezela abantu abamnyama;

kumele ikufakele izibuko ukuthi emuva kweminyaka engu-20 yentando yeningi, namanje umlando wokuhlwithwa kwabantu abamnyama umhlaba wabo ngendluzula awufundiswa ezikoleni. [Kwaphela isikhathi.]

Hawu besekusele kancane wemtanami lapho ngaphambili. [Ubuwelewele.] Hawu kodwa! Ngiqedele? Ei!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon member, you may take your seat. Hon member! There is an objection and the motion is not agreed to. Yes hon member?

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, on a point of order: I wanted to ask a question because as with the cases of abuse involving young people, the names of these young people were not revealed to the media to protect them. The hon member has referred to names. What is the practice in Parliament in this regard?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Well the motion has not been agreed to and it is certainly something that we should observe that where minors are involved that we should observe the practice as it is exercised also outside of the House but the motion is not agreed to.
Yes, why are you rising, hon member?

Ms N V MENTE: Chair, I have a point of order. Just to correct, the names of the minors were mentioned from the beginning.


Ms N V MENTE: They are all over the media even the press statements of the EFF and the others’ press statements from the lawyers, the names were mentioned. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you for that bit of information but there has been an objection and the motion is not agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms M R LESOMA: House Chairperson, ANC moves without notice:

That the House —

notes that after a decade of hostility and recrimination, the two main Palestinian rival

groups, Fatah and Hamas, came together in Cairo on Thursday, 12 October 2017, to sign a reconciliation deal;

further notes that the signing of the preliminary agreement by Fatah negotiator, Azzam al-Ahmed and Hamas’s representative, Saleh al-Arouri, was reached after two days of Egyptian brokered negotiations;

believes that this agreement will play a vital role in mending decade long rift between West Bank and Gaza Strip governments and ease Gaza’s burgeoning humanitarian crisis;

realises that the move will ensure that a unity government will administer both West Bank and Gaza Strip after the rift caused by militant group Hamas’ takeover of Gaza Strip in 2007;

appreciates the commitment made by the two groups to achieve the Palestinian dream, put an end to occupation and to have a Palestinian independent

sovereign state with East Jerusalem as the capital; and

congratulates the two groups on signing the reconciliation agreement to end the divisions.

I so move


(Draft Resolution)

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: On behalf of AIC, I hereby move without notice:

That the House —

notes the honouring of Archbishop Desmond Tutu by the City of Cape Town;

further notes that the monumental and historic arch towards Desmond Tutu honours his unfettered

contribution in the process that culminated in the drafting of the Constitution in 1996;

acknowledges that that the arch is a stark reminder that our new constitutional pact was underpinned by the values of Ubuntu, solidarity, human dignity and equality for all;

recognises that the arch sits right at the centre of our national heritage, adjacent to Parliament and the St George’s Cathedral;

acknowledges that this honour will go a long way into the annals of history as the most humanly just recognition of Africa’s pulse of creative spirit; and

also notes that Archbishop Tutu is a man of great courage and peace.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms M R LESOMA: House Chairperson, ANC moves without notice:

That the House —

notes that the South African national Women’s football team, Banyana Banyana, has won the 2017 COSAFA Women’s Championship, crowned after defeating Zimbabwe two to one at Bakersfield stadium in Bulawayo on Sunday, 24 September 2017;

further notes that the two goals by Thembi Kgatlana and Leandra Smeda were enough to see South Africa lift the trophy for the fourth time along with the victories in 2002, 2006, 2008 and 2017;

remembers that the victory that Banyana Banyana’s interim head coach, Desiree Ellis got becomes the first the South African to win the COSAFA cup as both player and coach, which she won in 2002 as a player and as a coach in 2017; and

congratulates Banyana Banyana for this wonderful victory and doing South Africa proud.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J VOS: House Chairperson, I hereby move on behalf of the DA without notice:

That the House —

notes that Cape Town International Airport has cemented its place as Africa’s most awarded airport when it was once again named the Best Airport in Africa at the 2017 World Travel Awards;

acknowledges that these awards are voted for by role-players within the tourism industry as well as consumers;

also acknowledges that through the Cape Town Air Access partnership, ten new direct flights have been added and 11 expansions have been secured since the launch of Project Khulisa, which has been initiated by the City of Cape Town and the Western Cape government;

further acknowledge that these successful partnerships have led to an increase of 27% international air arrivals in the past year to Cape Town; and

finally commends the ACSA, the general manager of Cape Town International Airport and his dedicated staff for once again flying South Africa’s flag high at these awards.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms N P KHUNOU: House Chairperson, ANC moves without notice:

That the House —

notes with sadness that death of more than 50 people and the injury of more than 500 at a country music concert across the strip from Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, US, on 29 September 2017;

understands that the gunman, Steven Paddock, in a hotel room on the 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay fired down into the concert crowd at about 10h08 local time on Sunday night;

further understands that the country music singer, Jason Aldean, was performing when the gunshots, which lasted for 10 to 15 minutes began;

remembers that Mr Paddock, a 64-year-old gambler from Mesquite, Nevada, killed himself before police burst in his room to find his dead body surrounded by 23 guns and ammunition;

condemns the senseless random killing of innocent civilians; and

conveys its condolences to the government, the people of the United States and families of the deceased and wishes those injured a successful recovery.

Agreed to.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms M R M MOTHAPO (ANC): The ANC supports government’s call on all sectors of South African society to elevate activities in recognition of the values of Oliver Reginald Tambo in celebration of his centenary birth on the 27 October. South Africa has declared 2017 the Year of O R Tambo and unfolding activities in October serve as strong reminders to citizens of the legacy O R Tambo.
Described by former President Nelson Mandela as “a great giant that strode the globe like a colossus”, President Tambo was a skilful leader who held our movement together during the darkest days in our history when all seemed hopeless. The ANC remembers Tambo as a solution-oriented leader who always sought to move forward on the basis of building consensus among all forces.

As we celebrate his life we reflect and draw the best lessons from him in order to deal with the challenges

facing both the ANC as a movement of the people and our beloved country, South Africa. Comrade O R, as he was affectionately known, was the embodiment of our broad- church character which he correctly understood as a necessity and precondition for the unity of all the motive forces of our national democratic revolution.
Thank you. [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I do not know why we bother because there are only three Ministers in the House today. Obviously, they want to rush back to the office to check whether they have been shuffled out or not.

The DA is hardly surprised by President Zuma’s decision to shuffle the deck chairs on a sinking ship. It is merely another front in President Zuma’s war against anyone who opposes his project of state capture. The obvious target in this reshuffle was the SACP member, Dr

Blade Nzimande who follows Pravin Gordhan, Derrick Hanekom, Mcebisi Jonas and others who have failed to tow the Zuma line, and have found themselves out of office.

This reshuffle has nothing whatsoever to do with good governance and ensuring the best for our people and service to our country. On the contrary, the critics have been fired and the loyalists have been offered promotions in exchange for support ahead of the elective conference in December.

The bad news is the appointment of former minister of gossip, Mr David Mahlobovic as the new Minister of Energy. It is clear that he has been placed in this position to be the nexus with the Russian nuclear deal. It is a clearer sign yet again that President Zuma has no intention of abandoning the stalled trillion rand nuclear deal with the Russians.

South Africans, particularly the poor should be terrified of the prospect of even more limited funds being poured into self-enriching deals that will make the connected few rich. The future of South Africa does not lie with

the ANC but it lies in the post-ANC South Africa free from corruption and state capture, and focused on our nation’s new struggle, the struggle for access to jobs and economic freedom. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, Chair: I am rising on Rule 84. The member has just referred to a Member of Parliament with a derogatory term, changing his surname and making it as if it is Russian. Therefore, that is not parliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, we request you to raise the point of order at the point when it happens. Hon Steenhuisen, you have referred to a Minister with a designation that we don’t know. We don’t understand what you were referring to. Will you refer to the Minister in his proper designation, please!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I thought Mahlobovic was his clan name but if that is incorrect, I’ll correct myself by saying the minister of gossip, David Mahlobo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, there is no such a Minister, hon member. You know what to do. Can you please refer to the Minister in his proper designation!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The new Minister of Energy, Mr David Mahlobo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Perestroika, Glasnost! [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Steenhuisen, as a Chief Whip you should set a better example.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr P G MOTEKA (EFF): As if the allegation of receiving bribes from the company that supplied oversized and

lesser quality sports attire for the SA Olympics Team was not enough, for twitter celebrity Minister of Police, Mr Mbalula to make tiny innocent men lie on the ground for three hours bound with cable tie while ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?

Ms R M M LESOMA: On a point of order: According to Rule

74 there is no minister of twitter. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon member referred then to the Minister of Police. Continue hon member.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Yebo [Yes] u-Mbawula. Hawu, unomona wena.

Mr P G MOTEKA: ... the police were waiting for him to come and take a picture so that he can post it on twitter, is outright madness and must be condemned. The men were detained at Cape Town Central Police Station

over the weekend where they were beaten by police only to be released without charge on Sunday.

As a result, these men who were on their way to the Eastern Cape to bury their loved one missed the funeral because of the wrongful arrest and humiliation. Such criminality and illegal conduct of police is not a surprise given how Mr Mbalula himself has encouraged them to use violence in an unspeakable language. Mr Mbalula’s persistent reckless conduct will only reinforce negative perceptions and damage the standing of police in our communities. [Time expired.]


Ms M F NKADIMENG (ANC): House Chair, the ANC congratulates the ANC-aligned SA Student Congress, Sasco for emerging victorious during the Walter Sisulu University Student’s Representative Council elections held on Thursday 5 October 2017. The Sasco won at all four WSU campuses, i.e Buffalo City, Mthatha, Butterworth and Queenstown. The results have sent an unequivocal

message that students remain unwavering in their support for the Mass Democratic Movement. We want to reiterate our support for students who continue to express their aspirations.

We call on the new SRC members to prioritise the issues of the students and to avoid being susceptible to management patronage which will reduce their credibility amongst students. They should not take their victory for granted, but to redouble their efforts to assist students, remain grounded in their struggles and lead from the front on all matters affecting the student population.

Now is the time to accelerate unity for democracy in education to realise the vision of a nonsexist and nonracial democratic education system. It is in our interest to see the university entrenched ... Thank you very much. [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Mr M HLENGWA (IFP): Hon House Chairperson, South Africa being a nation which strives to uphold one of its fundamental values, the concept of ubuntu African morality and social justice, it is highly concerning that it has become part of our almost daily lives to be inundated with disturbing reports of gross sexual misconduct which has plagued our schools. The recent wave of disturbing reports of alleged sexual assault, rape and the impregnation of pupils necessitates immediate and effective action.

The school is an institution which has traditionally been created and believed to be the child’s home away from home. Thus, it is the expectation of the IFP and society that all school personnel, in the exercise of their duties, protect and promote the safety of children entrusted in their care and not to be perpetrators. The IFP calls on the law-enforcement agencies and the Department of Education to ensure that justice is not only done, but it also seen to be done where any official or person entrusted with the care of children is found to

be involved in acts of sexual violation and abuse in schools, is taken to task.

This also calls for greater child educational matters related to sexual rights and privacy, and the creation of a conducive and safe environment for children and parents to report these prevailing sexual violations without the fear of reprisal. This is certainly becoming undesirable and it is in the collective interest of all of us to stand up and protect children in schools and make sure that justice is done for those children. I thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr M L W FILTANE (UDM): Thank you hon Chair. In a country ravaged by high unemployment, poverty and zero transformation, one would expect that a Cabinet reshuffle would be made in order to address these social evils.

The March reshuffle is not reported to have had any impact on service delivery either. In the Eastern Cape,

the schools’ building programme suffers due interruptions as the contractors and architects protest, even taking government to court in order to be afforded an opportunity to tender for jobs.

Contractors are required to prove that they have previously done work to the tune of R50 million before they can be allowed just to tender for government work. This is blatant exclusion from work opportunities.
Contractors are missing out on jobs worth R1,5 billion.

Now also, despite this, both the Minister of Basic Education and the member of the executive council, MEC, for Education in the Eastern Cape are still comfortable in their positions. In nu 17, Mdantsane, Eastern Cape, power was recently cut for 24 hours without any due notice to the citizens. This is not a sign of a caring and people-centred government. Most of the residents of Mdantsane live off government grants and are unemployed. This was sheer cruelty to them.

The Minister for Local Government is still comfortable in his position in spite of things. Today’s Cabinet

reshuffle is not geared to improve service delivery either.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr M H MATLALA (ANC): Thank you House Chair. The ANC has learnt with dismay about the outrageous attacks on two families within days, recently in KwaZulu-Natal.

On Tuesday 3 October 2017, eight people, including two women and six children, were shot and killed in Amatimatolo in the Umzinyathi area.

On Thursday 4 October 2017, five members of the same family were killed in yet another massacre in the Nteke area in Mariannhill. Four of the family members died at the scene and the other victim died in hospital on arrival.

The motives for these horrific attacks are subject to ongoing investigations by authorities. We condemn such

unprovoked brutal murders in the strongest possible terms and we urge the communities to assist the police with any information they have. We commend the law enforcement agency with the breakthrough in one of the incidents where four suspects found in possession of unlicensed firearms were arrested. We hope that all those involved will be brought to book.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr T MAKONDO (ANC): Thank you Chairperson. It comes as no surprise to the ANC to learn the recent revelation by the Wolseley residents in the Western Cape’s Witzenberg Municipality, claiming that they have not had refuse collection for five years.

The DA in the Western Cape has done nothing to improve the lives of the poor communities it serves. Zakhele township residents in the Witzenberg Municipality who settled there five years ago say that the municipality

has not provided any basic services, despite them paying for these services. Only after the inquiry by the media a few days ago, did the municipality start sending a small truck to collect garbage.

The DA services the suburbs of rich constituencies while leaving poor people in the province destitute. Housing delivery to the poor in this province is not regarded as a priority at all, and water and sanitation services have deteriorated. They disregard the lives of disadvantaged people who are now worse off than when the ANC was in charge.

The DA focuses only on one sector of the community and

... all citizens in the province who live there.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms D KOHLER (DA): Thank you. The latest Minister of tweets ... sorry, Police, best known for his razzmatazz,

has done it again. The SA Police Service, SAPS, members swooped on a group of 10 men, and told him they were dangerous criminals wanted in connection with the killings in Philippi’s Marikana settlement, based on the oxymoronic strong crime intelligence. These dangerous individuals were trussed like chickens and left to lie on the road for three full hours as the Minister dashed to prepare for his latest photo-op. Sporting a natty purple tie and a fresh haircut, he arrived in a flourish of blue flashing lights, and so the selfie fest began.
Apparently, he tweeted their pictures, saying their testicles must be crushed.

It was a blunder of monumental proportions because these men, who claim that they were wrongfully arrested, beaten and degraded by the SAPS members, with at least one stripped before women to determine whether or not he was circumcised, were mourners transporting a coffin to a funeral in the Eastern Cape.

In many countries, the Minister would have done the honourable thing and resigned, but this is South Africa so he will no doubt, despite his palpable violation of

section 35 of the Constitution, be in this position until his boss is removed. Then I’m sure he will be too.

Meanwhile, the DA has ensured that he will be given another photo-op; this time at the SA Human Rights Commission where he will be before the cameras once again, this time to explain his latest bizarre actions. Perhaps he could try and explain them to this House. [Applause.]


(Member’s Statement)

Ms N P SONTI (EFF): The EFF wrote letters to the Minister of Public Enterprises, the chairperson of Transnet’s board and the principal officer of the Transnet Pension Fund after reports of irregular and corrupt payments of Gupta-linked corrupt Trillian of nearly half a billion from Transnet workers’ pension fund.

The principal officer of the Transnet Pension Fund responded to the EFF’s letter and confirmed that, indeed,

money from 223 workers was stolen by Regiments through corrupt payments. These are the same Gupta-linked companies responsible for stealing money at Eskom with McKinsey, and at Transnet in the corrupt locomotive tender.

The fact that the Financial Services Board, FSB, has not cancelled Regiments and Trillian’s FSB licences, with all the evidence of corruption and breaches of licence conditions, is seriously disturbing and raises questions about the integrity and independence of the FSB.

Even after the EFF’s president, deputy president and Chief Whip wrote to the FSB to demand that Regiments and Trillian’s licences be cancelled with immediate effect, it has not happened.

South Africans must wake up to the fact that someone’s father and his corrupt friends stole government money, finished it and even went further to steal ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]



(Member’s Statement)

Mr M S MAILA (ANC): Thank you House Chair. The ANC welcomes the appointments of senior advocates Jennifer Cane and Dali Mpofu as members of the Judicial Service Commission, JSC, by President Zuma on
Friday 29 September 2017.

Adv Jennifer Cane, senior counsel, SC, and Adv Daluxolo Mpofu SC were nominated by the General Council of the Bar of SA to represent the advocate’s profession in the JSC.

The commission advises government on judicial matters. It also interviews for judicial posts, makes recommendations on appointments to the bench and handles complaints brought against judges.

The ANC congratulates Adv Cane and Adv Mpofu and wishes them well in their new responsibilities of advancing the country’s constitutional democracy.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr L M NTSHAYISA (AIC): Thank you very much hon Chairperson. As the AIC we are always very concerned about the promises that are always made to people.

Last time, on 18 September, the people of Matatiele embarked on a service-delivery protest, demanding the construction of roads there. Then the Premier of the Eastern Cape came and made some promises. To date those promises have not yet been fulfilled. It is a great concern indeed.

We call upon the relevant national government to look into this matter because we always say that the idea of intergovernment will always work. These people should be encouraged not to make these promises to the people.

Again, the people of Matatiele are still planning to have another protest on the 23rd of this month. This should be

discouraged by delivering on the promises that have been made. We are very concerned about this.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms D P MANANA (ANC): De Lille’s security upgrades. The ANC has always characterised the DA as the organisation of hypocrisy and double standards; a wolf in sheep’s clothing; an organisation that portrays itself as an upholder of good ethical practice and a corruption-free party, when in fact they stand for none of that.

When allegations of its Cape Metro Mayor Patricia de Lille indicated that she misappropriated taxpayers’ money on security upgrades at her Pinelands home, the DA didn’t set up an investigation, but only suspended the mayor until the outcomes of the investigation, to give her an opportunity to answer to these allegations.

Instead, it banned her from party activities. As a political move, one could recognise that this was done so

that she will be banned from participating in the DA’s conference and possibly jeopardise plans to get Madikizela elected as the DA’s provincial head.

This demonstrates how the DA is prepared to sacrifice their own principles and values whilst demanding this from other parties. The ANC is calling on the DA to practise what it preaches. It must institute an investigation into this matter. Suspend De Lille and give her an opportunity ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! I can’t hear your member.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr C MACKENZIE (DA): Thank you House Chair. The disgraceful racism displayed towards Johannesburg member of the mayoral committee, MMC, for Public Safety,

councillor Michael Sun on Wednesday 27 September 2017 is nothing short of criminal. When accepting a memorandum in front of a 1 000 strong crowd, MMC Sun was racially abused by leaders of Cosatu, using derogatory phrases that I won’t repeat, to stereotypically characterise people of ...

You’ve put off my microphone. Sabotage.

... to stereotypically characterise people of Chinese descent. A proud South African with a distinguished legal career, MMC Sun has long served the Fourways community where he lives, including in Diepsloot where he was a proportional representation, PR, councillor for many years.

What is doubly offensive about this incident though was the presence of none other than SA Communist Party general secretary Blade Nzimande. Very vocal on the Zuma Presidency before the vote of no confidence, hon Nzimande has been rather quiet of late, perhaps hoping that if he kept still nobody would notice and he could hang onto his job. Even though that tactic didn’t work and we will see

hon Nzimande in economy class now, that can be the only explanation for the deafening silence from ex-Minister Nzimande while councillor Sun was humiliated in the most shameful way.

Racism, wherever it rears its ugly head, is met with anger, criminal sanction and justifiable outrage. Now that the ex-Minister won’t form part of ministerial responses, perhaps one of his former Cabinet colleagues will break the silence to condemn this unacceptable behaviour by Cosatu members and leadership.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr G S RADEBE (ANC): The ANC condemns in the strongest terms the recent utterances by MEC Dan Plato in the recent response to Police Minister Fikile Mbalula’s deployment of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, to some parts of the Western Cape to assist in fighting gangsterism and drugs. These utterances are

controversial, racist and trample on the values upon which the country’s liberation struggle was founded.

MEC Dan Plato accused Minister Mbalula of ignoring the

... [Inaudible.] ... of deploying the SANDF in high criminal communities only after the predominantly black neighbourhood of Marikana informal settlement in Phillipi was attacked.

The ANC believes that reckless comments of this nature serve only to undermine South Africa’s democratic project and deepens racial conflict instead of building unity. We condemn this kind of attitude by the Community Safety MEC in the Western Cape as it runs against the nonracial principles of our society.

This unfortunate, baseless statement by Mr Dan Plato can easily trigger racial tensions, especially when uttered by people in positions of ... [Inaudible.] ... of the MEC. The DA continues to manifest its racist utterances. [Time expired.]


(Minister’s Response)


AFFAIRS: House Chair, let me welcome the statement made by a member on the unfortunate developments taking place in some of the Western Cape municipalities. House Chairperson, let me start by indicating that as part of their developmental duties, municipalities are expected to prioritise the basic needs of communities under their jurisdiction and it should be done in a very transparent and equitable manner without any form of discrimination.

House Chairperson, as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we are concerned with the number of complaints on unfair and discriminatory provision of services by some municipalities in the Western Cape. I must indicate that amongst other things, currently our Ministry, is dealing with a complaint from Laingsburg Municipality where the Finance MEC in the Western Cape is alleged to have slashed a municipal

budget just because that municipality is led by the ANC. We are very, very, very concerned. [Interjections.]

We are very, very much concerned about such practices. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!


AFFAIRS: Now, today we hear of the Zakhele township matter and definitely this matter is going to be investigated and if it is established that the matter is true, the necessary steps are going to be taken because this is against our Constitution and the regulations that govern municipalities. I thank you. [Applause.]



(Minister’s Response)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!


Chairperson, I would like to respond to two of the statements: The first is with regard to the conduct of the patrol guard which we regard as reprehensible and repugnant and indeed what has happened immediately came to the attention of the department and the person was arrested and will face the full might of the law. Beyond that the MEC for Education immediately intervened, provided psychosocial support to the affected learners, engaged with the entire community, provided an apology by the sector, ensured that security at the premises is enhanced so that our learners and teaching and learning takes place in a safe and conducive environment.

Hon House Chairperson the five factors that are very, very important are the following: Firstly, it is certainly to ensure that all learning is safe and caring environments, secondly, is that all governing bodies should establish a safety subcommittee that could take care and liaise with the school and the community so that

they could deal with matters of this nature, thirdly, is to enhance and improve which has already happened, the quality of the comprehensive sexuality reproductive education, fourthly, is to ensure as we have already done in more than 15 000 schools that there is close liaison between the police as well as the school and the fifth is to not tolerate any form of any form of any violence or sexual abuse at all. In other words such persons or perpetrators must be dealt with.

What the Education MEC did in this instance, he immediately suspended the principal and the management given the fact that it had come to the attention and that they were not proactive. Here is an MEC who basically responded immediately to it. He provided the same kind of attention and urgency in the other instance where there was a reported rape case. Indeed we would like to congratulate the Education MEC Panyaza Lesufi for his proactive stance in these particular matters and again we endorse the views of the hon member.

With regard to infrastructure, hon Chairperson, a 184 state of the art schools have been delivered in the

country. The Eastern Cape alone has been the beneficiary of more than a 130 schools. Right now as we speak, 42 schools are under construction. So, there is certainly a lot of activity in terms of that.

For example the Western Cape is the beneficiary of 25 state of the art schools, each of which is not less than R30 million in terms of its contract price. The Department of Basic Education has provided wonderful opportunities for entrepreneurs, but the work that is being done is connected to the scope of the work. So, if you have a project worth R40 million, certainly there are certain requirements and these are standard requirements that have to be fulfilled in terms of tenders. Whilst every effort is being made to ensure that we provide through outsourcing work to smaller and emerging contractors, there are certain standards that have to be complied with in terms of the law and procurement processes. I thank you, hon House Chair. [Applause.]


(Minister’s Response)


Chairperson, I want to congratulate the statement made by the member of the ANC on the celebrations of O R Tambo.
I want to assert the fact that O R Tambo is one of the outstanding Presidents that the ANC ever had. He has served the ANC for 30 years as the President and that is very, very important for us to mark and celebrate the life of this outstanding leader.

I want to further congratulate the government of the ANC and the Department of International Relations and Co- operation for making the residents of OR Tambo in Lusaka part of the heritage route. It is indeed a fitting tribute to O R Tambo. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mrs M R M MOTHAPO: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates celebrating the extraordinary life and supreme contribution of Oliver Reginald Tambo to our freedom in South Africa.

Mr S C MOTAU: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA that the House debates the measures put in place by the City of Johannesburg that have led to R15 billion of corrupt activities being exposed and how these measures can be implemented across the rest of South Africa.

Mr T E MULAUDZI: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates the continuous and unnecessary militarisation of South African institutions of higher learning by the SA Police Services and private security companies.

Ms M F NKADIMENG: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates the use of previously marginalised official languages in South African courts to ensure that justice is accessible to all citizens.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the IFP that the House debates the recent report that South Africa ranks third in the world for the highest number of cybercrime victims, losing about R2,2 billion a year to cyberattacks, and has suffered more cyberattacks than any other country in Africa.

Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the NFP that the House debates the scourge of sexual abuse of learners in schools around the country.

Mr M S A MAILA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates North Korea’s continued violation of United Nations decisions on nuclear testing and ballistic missile launching that have the potential to destabilise world peace.

Mr M L W FILTANE: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on

behalf of the UDM that the House debates the prospect of improving the conditions of employment and remuneration of essential services employees, like educators, social workers, nurses, and others, in the context of the urgent need to improve quality service delivery and motivate the South African workforce.

Ms L V JAMES: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA that the House debates the shortage of
4 200 critically needed staff at Gauteng’s provincial hospitals.

Mr T E MULAUDZI: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates the impact of the repayment of more than US$25 billion in apartheid-era foreign debt by South Africa during transition, in light of the unmanageable and expensive debt-service costs - expenditure that takes away money from education, health and social grants.

Ms D P MANANA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates initiatives to improve the country’s skills development in the field of science and technology.

Mr T MAKONDO: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates addressing the rampant increase in gangster-related killings and the spread of gangster culture in black communities.

Mr G S RADEBE: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates the revival and strengthening of state-owned enterprises in order that they deliver on their developmental mandates through the advancing of key national objectives, particularly through providing economic and social infrastructure.

Mr J VOS: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA that the House debates the implementation of a

dual pricing system whereby South Africans can pay cheaper rates to access government-owned parks, resorts and facilities, as a means to stimulate domestic tourism and job creation.

Mr M H MATLALA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates prioritising measures to strengthen safety efforts in the mining sector.

The House adjourned at 18:16.