Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 23 Aug 2018


No summary available.




The Council met at 14:04

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order hon members! Hon members, you will recall that during our previous sitting on the 21st August, I made an undertaking that all those motions that were deferred will be considered in our sitting, which is today. I will start with Notice of Motions before I afford the House an opportunity to consider those motions. Therefore, I would call on any member who wishes to give a Notice of Motion. I will first consider… [Inaudible.] afford members an opportunity to deal with those that we have deferred. We will deal with them today.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, if you can allow me to assist. We dealt with all the notices. It was Motions without Notice that we stopped in the middle and then you corrected the situation thereafter. So, there are no deferred Notices of Motion.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In assisting, you said, I don’t know whom you are assisting because I spoke about motions. Whatever that happened on Tuesday, we agreed as a House that we will defer and I made a commitment that Thursday, which is today, we will consider those Motions. It is for the member to then indicate whether his or her motions read as a Notice of Motion or Motion without Notice and then clarify the House and we shall proceed. For today, let us start with Notices of Motion.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council –

debates the scale of gang related violence impacting severely on all citizens, especially on the vulnerable innocent school going youth in the Cape Flats; and

the need to ensure safety to our citizens by deploying the army to strengthen the under resourced SA Police Service in the Western Cape.

Ms T MOTARA: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council debates the concerted efforts of lobby groups that include AfriForum trying to discredit South Africa’s transformation efforts causing uncertainty to investors in our country on the backdrop of the high rate of the triple challenges – inequality, unemployment and poverty in our country.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr L V MAGWEBU: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the Council –

takes this opportunity to express sincere condolences on the passing of the Queen of Soul, Aretha Franklin, who died at the age of 76, on 16 August 2018 in Detroit, Michigan; in the United States of America;

notes that she will forever be remembered for her incredible voice and significant contribution to the music industry;

also notes that she was a strong woman with an independent spirit, Franklin was embraced and loved by all people from all walks of life. No one will ever forget the sweet, soothing sounds of songs like, You Make Me Feel like a Woman, R-E-S-P-E-C-T and I Never Loved a Man The Way I love You, and

further notes that she was one of the most remarkable woman she has been who began to shatter that ceiling, making way for many others to follow. May her soul rest in peace

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr M KHAWULA: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the IFP:

That the Council –

notes that the state capture enquiry has finally commenced on Monday, 20 August 2018;

further notes that it is expected to last for 24 months;

acknowledges the devastation state capture has wrought on the economy while bringing all SOEs to their knees;

registers a concern with the Chairperson of the commission’s utterances that not many whistle blowers have come forward with information to assist the work of the commission;

calls on all South Africans who might have information on state capture to submit information to the commission so that it is able to do its work thoroughly and without fear or favour;

lastly, pledges support for the work of the commission and expresses hope that all those who have fleeced the state of millions will be brought to book.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms L L ZWANE: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council –

notes with utmost appreciation the Women’s Charter Review Conference, which was held in Parliament on 20 August under the theme, Assessing progress for women since the adoption of the 1954 Women’s Charter and the 1994 Women’s Charter For Effective Equality;

further notes that the conference, which was attended by various gender activists and representatives from various civil society organizations across the country, served as a launching pad to engage women, across all sectors for the society, on the most pertinent challenges still facing women today;

further notes that the inputs that were made at the Conference is intended to culminate in the adoption of a contextually relevant Women’s Charter in March 2019;

takes this opportunity to congratulate the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP; the Deputy Speaker and

Chairperson of the Women’s Caucus for convening such an important engagemet; and

lastly, expresses appreciation to the various staff members under the leadership of the Acting Secretary to Parliament, Ms Baby Tyawa, for making sure that the conference became a resounding success.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Dr H E MATEME: House Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council –

notes with the outmost concern and apprehension reports that the EFF is failing to protect women within the party

as they continue to battle assault, violence and sexual harassment by some leaders of the party;

further notes that in one incident, a North West Deputy Chairperson, allegedly told a junior staff member during a confrontation in his office that he would have her genitals cut off and that a second incident involves the party Limpopo secretary, who was accused of physically assaulting a female member at the regional conference in 2016;

further notes with outmost apprehension ...

Ms N P KONI: On a point of order Chair, the last time I checked, matters cannot be raised in this House if they are still before the courts, correct me if I am wrong.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I did not hear any ... On that motion hon Mateme, are matters before the court?

Ms N P KONI: Yes

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are there cases open and matters before the court in terms of being on the roll?

Dr H E MATEME: Not according to the sources for this motion

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, then it changes the whole thing. No! No! Then it changes the whole ball ... [Interjections.] Take your seat. That changes the whole ball game. Hon members, everybody has the right to the freedom of ... [Inaudible.] If at all there is a matter that is before a court of law and it is considered and it has been placed before this House, a member has the right to object and follow the process and then the House will therefore be informed. Can you continue, hon member.

Dr H E MATEME: Thank you, Chairperson.

further notes with outmost apprehension and concern that the victims are said not to be receiving any counselling from the party and are totally ignored by the leadership of the party;

lastly, take this opportunity to condemn in the harshest possible terms any forms of violence or harassment against women especially, by people who use their positions and influence to wage utter violence and harassment of women across all political organisation.

Not agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:

That the House –

congratulates Mr Solly Msimanga on his selection as the DA Gauteng Premier candidate for the 2019 national elections;

further notes that Solly represents a new generation of the DA leaders who are young, charismatic, articulate, competent,

and whole heartedly committed to improving the lives of South Africans;

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can you listen to the motion? Hon members! Can you listen to the motion?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Can I start over? Just to round a bit.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, just where I interrupted you.


further notes that Solly represents a new generation of the DA leaders who are young, charismatic, articulate, competent, and whole heartedly committed to improving the lives of South Africans;

under DA Premier candidate Msimanga, the Gauteng will now have an opportunity to vote for a party with a track record of caring for the people, creating jobs and stopping at nothing to halt the scourge of corruption unlike the ANC; and

understands that the only way to truly get rid of corruption is to change this government. He will ask the people just to do that in 2019 to vote for the DA.


Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, I was calling you to order.

Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was calling you to order.

Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, I was calling you to order. Can you take your seat? Take your seat, hon member.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele made it very clear on Tuesday that her motion was a notice; so, it was treat as a notice of a motion.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr F ESSACK: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:

That the House –

notes the appointment of Mr Mark Kingon as acting Commissioner of SA Revenue Service, Sars – Chairperson you are not listen.


Mr F ESSACK: Oh, okay, notes the appointment of Mr Mark Kingon as acting Commissioner of SA Revenue Service, Sars, a vital and key institution of the state. Of course, we are more than happy to see the now dubious Tom Moyane having been fired;

further notes the looting of state resources has had huge ramifications at Sars as well as our country. Levels of public trust and credibility of an institution that was once a global leading institution now remain low; and

further notes that in this financial year alone SARS must collect a target of some R1,345 trillion.

In conclusion, I quote Mr. Kingon:

“To rebuild trust is a long and hard road, but it must be done if we are going to resolve the issue and regain the confidence both in the country and globally”.

We wish our new acting Commissioner of Sars every success in this mammoth task. Thank you, Chairperson.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms L L ZWANE: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the Premier of the Western Cape, Helen Zille, received a hostile reception when trying to address disgruntled Khayelitsha pupils, teachers, parents and community organisations;

also notes that there was a group of people gathered at Keizersgracht Street to march to the central business district, CBD, demanding immediate safety at schools in the township;

further notes that the schools were closed while the students and teachers participated in the gathering following a spate of burglary and armed robberies on school premises which occurred during the day; and

lastly, calls upon the MEC’s for Education and Community Safety in the Western Cape to make sure that township schools are secured, so that learning can take place.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms T WANA: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move without notice:

That the House –

notes with concern, the tweet from president Trump of USA regarding the land reforms that South Africa is undertaking;

further notes that in his tweet he claims to have asked the Secretary of State to closely study the South African land and farm seizures and expropriations and the large scale killing of farmers. The South African government is now seizing land from white farmers - which is not true;

also notes that his tweet transpires from being misinformed and misguided in the sense that he thinks that the land expropriation without compensation that our country is engaging on, is about land seizure and victimising our white citizens; and

urges President Donald Trump to give himself some time to meet the President of South Africa and understand the process of “land expropriation without compensation”.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms G G OLIPHANT: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the killers of Zara Hector were sent to jail for life, after they attacked her with a hammer and dumped her body on a farm;

also notes that Hector’s killers, Renaldo van Rooyen and Tawfeeq Ebrahim, who were friends at the time of the murder, were also sentenced a further 15 years each for robbery with aggravating circumstances;

further notes that Hector, a mother of two, was murdered in 2016 in the garage of van Rooyen’s home in Kuilsriver; and

lastly, congratulates the police and the prosecution on their success and hope that the sentence will send a clear message of no tolerance for violence against women.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council —

condemns in the strongest possible terms the undignified, horrific and racist sentiment expressed by one Adam Catzavelos, a resident of Johannesburg;

notes that whilst on holiday in Greece, Catzavelos recorded himself describing the conditions of the beach, followed by racist expletives directed towards black South Africans;

further condemns the unjustified racism that still exists in our country today and how it continues to undermine the reconciliation project; and

calls upon South Africans of all walks of life to continue the good fight that will see a South Africa for all its people living, working and interacting together based on a level of equal respect and appreciation for one another.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council —

            notes the judicial inquiry into state capture during the terms of office of former President Jacob Zuma has begun; and

            calls on all possible witnesses to avail themselves without fear or intimidation to testify to end the devastating plunder of our resources and to hold those responsible accountable for their actions.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are there any objections to the motion?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of motion on the Order Paper.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms T K MAMPURU: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council —

notes that the Chairperson of the National Arts Council of South Africa, Mr Hartley Ngoato, was assaulted and called the K-word whilst on an outing at the Hartbeespoort Dam in the North West;

also notes that Mr Ngoato was assaulted by a white man and sustained severe lacerations to the head, bruises and cuts to his face as a result of the attack whilst his friend was held back by another man;


further notes that the attack on Mr Ngoato comes at a time when racial tensions in Hartbeespoort are at a peak following vehement opposition by the predominantly white Afrikaner community to increased applications by black people seeking leases to conduct business on state land along the shores of the dam; and

calls on the police to make sure that the perpetrators of this crime face the full might of the law.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Dr H E MATEME: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council —


notes and welcomes with appreciation the successful meeting this week Tuesday between the President of the Republic Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, the Minister in the Presidency responsible for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation the hon Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, Agbiz chief executive officer Dr John Purchase and Agri SA president Dan Kriek;

also notes that the purpose of the meeting was to introduce a sector-based approach to inclusive growth and employment, specifically for the agro-food value chain;

further notes there was overwhelming agreement and commitment to resolve the land issue and other challenges confronting the primary agriculture industry; and

calls on all leaders in the sectors to work together with government and to remain engaged through the appropriate avenues.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I hereby wish to move that this House notes the incorrect claims by the Minister in the Presidency, the hon Dlamini-Zuma, in this House on
15 August 2018. The Minister alleged that the apartheid-era National Party had merged with the DA and further alleged that the DA has existed for over 300 years.

The DA’s origins can be traced back to the formation of the Progressive Party in 1959. When the Progressive Party became the Official Opposition during the 1970s, the party subsequently became the Progressive Reform Party and later the Progressive Federal Party. At this time, the party was led by several prominent opponents of apartheid, including Helen Suzman, Harry Schwarz, Colin Eglin, and Frederik van Zyl Slabbert.

In 1989, the Progressive Federal Party then became the Democratic Party and remained a separate entity from the National Party and the New National Party during the 1990s. It was during the 1990s that the National Party became the New National Party. In 2000, the New National Party leadership had planned to merge with the Democratic Party to form the DA but subsequently bowed out of the agreement and opted to form a coalition with the ANC in the Western Cape, only to


later be absorbed into the ANC in 2005. The cosy merger between the New National Party leadership and the ANC leadership at that time was clearly illustrated by former National Party member Marthinus van Schalkwyk serving as a Cabinet member in both the Mbeki and Zuma administrations.

In 2000, the Democratic Party became the Democratic Alliance. [Time expired.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In light of the objection, the motion without notice may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of motion on the Order Paper.

Be careful, hon members. You are allowed two minutes. You have only two minutes.

Ms G G OLIPHANT: Deputy Chair, on a point of order: It is now the second time the hon Hattingh has referred to me as a “Zuma ghost”.


Now, we have objected to what the hon Labuschagne said, and we are a “Zuma ghost”. Can you please – because when we start, they will go the Chairperson and say the ANC does this or that – talk to the hon Hattingh?


Hy moet ons nie name gee nie. Hy moenie sê ons is Zuma-spoke nie, want ek weet nie waar Zuma bly nie en ek weet nie hoe Nkandla lyk nie.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, order! Hon members, those are off-the-record exchanges. On Tuesday, I cautioned members. [Interjections.] I did. Whatever you say to each, I am not there to hear, especially if it is not on record. I cannot even say I will consult the Hansard. Please behave like hon members and refer to each other with the greatest dignity and respect. Let us just respect each and stop insulting each other. Whatever you are saying to each other silently ... [Interjections.] ... whatever you are saying, I don’t know. I am here. [Interjections.]


Please, hon Julius! I am trying to caution to the House. Please refrain from that because now you are putting me in a very difficult situation. Hon member, let us continue. Hon Chabangu. No, it was the hon Smit. Do you see now? [Interjections.] You look almost like the hon Chabangu. [Laughter.]


(Draft Resolution)

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Democratic Alliance without notice:

That the Council –

notes the blatant looting of Mokgalakoena Local Municipality’s coffers;

further notes that an amount of R6 million has been invoiced to the municipality by a contractor for grass and bush cutting in Extension 19 and 20 of Mokopane while the


municipal’s park division are already in process of conducting such clean ups;

also notes that this concerned contractor was appointed by the municipality in 2014 to provide ad hoc maintenance services, vehicle maintenances and repairs only;

notes that it is evident that this contractor was awarded the tender without it first being advertised and having gone through the correct procedures;

further notes that the same municipality has hundreds of faulty street lights due to lack of funds to purchase new light bulbs;

also notes that there is hundreds of residents who still have no access to drinking water or to wash clothes who consequently must dig in river banks to survive;

acknowledge a special ovation to the DA Councillor Yolanda Coetzee, for exposing this attempt to defraud the municipality before the payments were processed;


also notes that she referred to the Select Committee of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to summon these officials to account for this ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The fact that you are continuing hon member after I had warned you that your time had expired note that your motion without notice will then read as a notice of a motion. Maybe just for the purpose of clarity for the Council, when you started that motion I asked myself whether you have not passed that motion before. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you sure? Okay. We will verify that ... [Inaudible.]

Motion objected.


(Draft Resolution)


Ms M L MOSHODI: Chairperson, I move on behalf of the ANC without notice:

That the Council –

notes that the University of the Western Cape has partnered with Wear SA to help fundraise for the missing middle students by hosting a fashion show and donating the ticket sales to the Ikamva Lethu Student Bursary Fund;

also notes that the missing middle category are students whose parents or guardians can only afford to pay a portion of the required university fees;

further notes that the SA Clothing and Textile Workers Union is partnering with the University of Western Cape, UWC, centre for entrepreneurship and innovation through the union’s Wear SA initiative; and

congratulates the UWC and SA Clothing and Textile Workers Union, SACTWU, on this very important and progressive initiative.


Motion agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr M M CHABANGU: Deputy Chairperson, I move on behalf of the EFF without notice:

That the Council –

notes that the students command of Free State has won for the first time the elections of the University of Free State; and

further notes that this is the indication that the EFF is ready to rule.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you just speak allowed? When you hit each other you are so allowed but when it comes to procedural matters ... [Inaudible.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you objecting to the motion? The motion will then read as a notice of a motion. I now call on the Chief Whip to move the motion regarding the amendment of the Order Paper.

Motion rejected.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, thank you hon Chair ... [Interjections.]

Mr J J LONDT: ... the hon Ximbi. Even though he is from the Western Cape, he still wants to be our comrade.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I called on the Chief Whip. On what point are you rising, hon member?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: It is my turn, I am invited by the Deputy Chair I must stand.


Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I was noted when I had my hand up and was noted in terms of my motion without notice. If you look at your list my name is there, so, I don’t understand why I was not called to do my motion.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention but let me also bring something to the attention. You might have noticed that I have been very lenient. I allowed the Council enough time, in terms of the rules 20 minutes is for motions. That is in terms of the rule, whether your name is on the list or not. I have your name on the list but if we had reached a particular time it is a cut off. The reason why I was so lenient is because we were correcting what happened on Tuesday hence I even allowed for an extra 20 minutes on the motions just for today. You might have noticed that hence I am calling on the Chief Whip now to call on the amendment.

Mr W F FABER: It was your fault from the start!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move that:


Today’s Order Paper be amended to include; Consideration of the Select Committee on Security and Justice (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 21 August 2018, p. 15) Regulations made in terms of Section 109(1)(a) and in terms of Section 109(1)(b), read with Sections 97(6) and 94(1) of the Legal Practice Act, 2014.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before I allow hon Mthethwa, I acknowledge the presence of the Deputy Minister. You are heartily welcome to the National Council of Provinces. [Applause.]

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice considered the regulations in terms of section 109(1)(a) and the regulations in terms of 109(1)(bA) read with section 97(6) and 94(1) of the Legal Practice Act, Act 28 of 2014. The briefing by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development indicated that in terms of section 109(1)(a) of the Act, the Minister must, within six months after receiving from the National Forum as provided for in section 97(1)(a), make regulations by publication in the gazette. In terms of subsection (1)(c) the regulation must, before publication thereof in the gazette, be approved by Parliament.

Section 97(1) as amended by the Legal Practice Amendment Act, Act 16 of 2017 requires the National Forum to make recommendations to the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services on the following matters, which recommendations must be converted into regulations to be made by the Minister: (a) an election procedure of purposes of consulting the council; (b) the establishment of the provincial councils; (c) the composition, powers and functions of the


provincial councils; (d) the manner in which the provincial councils must be elected; (e) all the practical vocational training requirements that candidate attorneys or pupils must comply with before they can be admitted by the court as legal practitioners; (f) the right of appearance of a candidate legal practitioner in court or any other institution; and (g) a mechanism to wind up the affairs of the National Forum.

The regulations recommended by the National Forum and endorsed by the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services were interrogated and considered by the Select Committee on Security and Justice. The Committee is satisfied that the regulations have taken into account the need for increased gender representation within the legal profession. Although the current gender split is not optimal at the moment, the Deputy Minister has indicated that part of the business of the SA Legal Practice Council would be to ensure that a charter which ensures that women are able to have greater representativity in the profession would be developed and finalised.

The Legal Practice Act of 2014, itself, is a milestone after a decade of discussion debate and final agreement. The transformation of the legal profession is one step closer to unifying the different


legal societies into one SA Legal Practice Council and establishing the provincial council that shares a single unified vision and shared goal which broadly reflects the diversity and demographics of the Republic. With this, we look forward to even greater progress towards a nonracial, nonsexist and equal society.

With regard to the committees’ recommendation to the NCOP, the committee, having considered regulations in terms of section 109(1)(a) and regulations in terms of section 109(1)(bA) read with section 97(6) and 94(1) of the Legal Practice Act, Act 28 of 2014, reports that it has agreed to the regulations and recommends that the NCOP approves the regulations as tabled by the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. Chair, I table this Report.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Declaration of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, apart from the fact that the Minister missed the deadline by several months, the Western Cape believes in the need for progressive transformation but rejects the


inclusion of apartheid-style strict racial quotas as they are in the Report. We further question the practicality and legality of voting by means of post. The Western Cape does not support the Report.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, good afternoon. The state of education in South Africa is something we are all concerned about. While preparing for this speech and debate, I thought about what other speakers might possibly say and where emphasis must be to try and effect maximum change. But as I’m standing here today I’m confident that not a single person in this House will disagree that our youth are one of


the most important constituencies that we serve; that investing in our youth, making sure that they are ready for the challenges of the world, should be one of our top priorities; and that tomorrow’s leaders should be ready and be able to fend for themselves. Let’s be honest, adulting is hard. Some of us have been at it quite longer than others.

Due to the historical nature of our country, the systemic imbalances and injustices, there are those to this very day who are better prepared to take on the challenges of the world than others. Some have safety nets to fall back on while most do not even have that.
We as lawmakers have a responsibility to look after every citizen. That responsibility magnifies with the most vulnerable, the very old and the very young. But I want to go further than that. With an election coming up, the responsibility weighs even more heavily to look after those who do not even have the voice in terms of a vote to express it at the ballot box and say how their representatives looked after them.

I’m also confident that every person in this House and the millions we represent will agree that crippling unemployment is a massive crisis in this country – it is a crisis that we must overcome.


Unemployment is approaching 10 million South Africans. That is not just the 10 million that is affected, but close family and extended family is also affected. We must overcome this. This is a crisis that is nondebatable.

Where we must stand up and be held accountable is our responsibility to the learners in our schools. Children who trust government to help equip them for adulting, to be able to compete in a job market and to even be that solution we need in this country to become entrepreneurs, to become job creators, to look after their own family , but           also to other families. We must ensure that once children leave school, the millions of youth that do pass do not just get a worthless certificate that is scoffed at by employers. We need to ensure that it is a quality document that children could be proud of and that employers will be looking out for.

For children to be sufficiently prepared for postschool education, employment and even more importantly entrepreneurship, there are two key areas we need to target. The first is to get learners to the further education and training phase. When the foundation of a house is not solid, those who are building the it do so in vain. This applies to education as well. Lacking quality learning in the early


grades is not something that can be caught up later in the further education and training phase, FET, phase.

Deputy Minister, your Cabinet colleague, Minister Angie Motshekga should know this well since she herself announced that according to the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, 78% of South Africa’s – our future and our children - Grade 4 pupils cannot read to comprehend in any language. That’s not only English, but in the other tongue as well. This means that one in five South Africans cannot read to comprehend in their own mother tongue by the time they reach Grade 4. That is affecting their chances for future learning and working.

As representatives of our provinces in the NCOP, we should ask ourselves and ask our provincial MECs; what are the literacy rates in our provinces and what are we doing to improve them? Members from Limpopo in this House, nine out of 10 Grade 4 learners cannot read with comprehension. This is a crisis and is something we need to address. We need to take hands across the board and say, this is our future we need to look after and make sure that we equip them better for the future.


In Mpumalanga – there is one member here today and probably they have read that there is a debate - 85% of learners cannot read to comprehend. The Eastern Cape is not far behind with 83%. This is a problem across the country. Even the best performing provinces need to address that because even if you sit at this level you need to strive to get to the next level.

In many provinces we fail our children by not ensuring that those we entrust to teach them can do the job they are paid to do. While much effort is put into initial teacher training, existing teachers are being left out. In 2016 the Department of Basic Education listed more than 5 000 teachers as underqualified for their positions, where teachers often fail the very subjects that they get paid to teach. How do we expect our children to succeed if even the teachers cannot pass subjects that they need to teach? The worst performing province on this front is KwaZulu-Natal where almost 3 000 underqualified teachers are preparing a future generation. Hon members, colleagues, what are you doing to hold provinces, your own MECs and your own premiers accountable to address this problem?

One of the biggest stumbling blocks in ensuring quality education to our children is the SA Democratic Teachers, Sadtu. Despite agreeing


to several measures during the Education Labour Relations Council negotiations, the union refused to sign agreements. Until we can hold school staff accountable for measured performance, we are unlikely to see any improvement in their service to learners. Is it too much to ask that a teacher who gets paid to do a job must be evaluated to see if they can do the job? Is it too much to ask to have teachers arrive on time for school? Is it too much to ask to that teachers must actually be in class and to teach our future generation? The continuous blocking by Sadtu of the annual national assessment and performance contracts should be something we all condemn because it is about our children, our future and the millions of learners who trust us to look after them and not to protect an underqualified few.

Another example of Sadtu’s unholy influence is the infamous jobs for cash scandal. How is it possible that we allow continuous mismanagement of teaching posts and staff payments resulting in too few or absent teachers at some of the most disadvantage schools in the country? Again, this should not be about protecting a few, but looking after the many and investing in the future of children that need it the most. If we can sort this out, it will be easier to


attract staff to work in rural areas and families wouldn’t need to go to extreme lengths to send kids far away for better education.

When parents send their kids to school they are trusting government to look after their children while providing them with quality education. It is safe to assume that parents want their children to learn in an environment that is structurally and socially safe. The Department of Basic Education has failed to ensure that school staffs are properly vetted by all provincial departments and the SA Council for Educators – admitting that despite it being a requirement of both criminal law and the Children’s Act, teachers’ names are not cross checked with the National Register of Sex Offenders or the Child Protection Register. Learners are exposed to danger from both abusive teachers and from classmates when unsupervised at school.

Many schools have shockingly poor infrastructure ranging from basic requirements that is lacking such as water and lighting to the continued prevalence of pit toilets leading to the death of two learners that we know of so far. Despite this the national government slashed the school infrastructure budget by R7,2 billion in the current financial year. There is a saying, “Put your money


where your mouth is.” Therefore, we must act and budget for the safety and the future of our children.

Last week, President Ramaphosa and Minister Motshekga launched the Sanitation Appropriate for Education, Safe, initiative. One must ask how they expect to eradicate pit latrines while slashing the infrastructure budget so severely. Or if this is just a shameless grab for press out of a tragedy?

We should also look one another in the eye and ask why provincial departments like Limpopo and the Eastern Cape are never held to account for their failure to deliver the basics for learning, such as textbooks, furniture and school transport. This is not the provinces’ problem as the Minister has stated, but it is a problem of every South African because if we fail the learners year in and year out we are failing our own future. By defending or allowing such failures we are all just as guilty.

The second area that needs to be targeted to prepare children is the further education and training phase itself. This is where we can equip learners with the specific, usable knowledge and skills for employment, starting a business, employing others or specialising in


their chosen fields of study. Learners must have a firm grounding in the essential subjects needed to participate in the economy, such as languages and maths. Learners should be able to select the subjects most applicable to a further career. Making subjects such as History compulsory does not further this goal.

In this very House the governing party acknowledges the need to prepare South Africa as an integral player in the 4th industrial revolution. Why have we not made entrepreneurship as well as information and communication technology compulsory subjects?
Linked to this is easy and affordable access to the internet. This is something that we as lawmakers can address. Why are we not dong that? These are innovative and forward-thinking ways of equipping our children for a competitive world where they can be part of the solution, and not add to the burden we currently have to carry.

Further education and training grades, particularly in rural areas, do not have specialist teachers qualified to teach essential subjects such as maths and science. Technical subjects, as a later addition to curriculum assessment policy statements, Caps, are essential to improve our technical skills base. Again, this is where


our energies should go to in investing in these areas to prepare children for the workplace.

It would be remiss of me to not point out another key area for intervention. The most important phase for specialisation and job- related learning is the FET phase. Yet, if we look at the number of learners who enrol for Grade 10 and how many of those learners passed matric, we see that approximately two thirds drop out and do not pass. That means almost 66% of our learners we are failing to take through that critical phase to prepare them for the job market, to be entrepreneurs and to create business and employ others. Only 14% of those Grade 10 pupils complete matric with a bachelor’s pass. That’s where wee are failing at the moment, and this is something we need to come together. This is a shocking statistic and once again it underscores the need to improve our education as a whole, from the foundation phase, throughout the school years, supported by the right subjects and taught by qualified teachers in a safe environment so that our future, our children are equipped to compete in the labour market and even develop the necessary skills to start up small businesses and help defeat this monster of unemployment in our country. Thank you.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members of the House, it is my pleasure to participate in this very important debate, but where should we start?

Maybe we should start where hon Londt started. Hon Londt, with regard to all the imperatives in terms of what we must do in South Africa in preparing our children to be competent and to compete with others in the world, I will say that we all agree. However, we can’t keep singing the same song even when decisions have been made and even when we have already agreed on what must be done. I think what we need to focus on now is what effort ... as we evaluate as Members of Parliament and members of the NCOP. We have these reports that practitioners and implementers give us from time to time, and I think the best thing that we can do at this moment will be to give them direct feedback and to point out the areas where we feel that they can actually lift them up from because repeating the challenges doesn’t actually help us to move forward.

I am saying this because all of us actually set out and drew up the National Development Plan. We identified all these matters that hon Londt spoke about — the challenges we had in the past and what must be done. I must say that I believe all of us as members who are


sitting here today have a report. I don’t have to repeat that government has actually indicated that we are building a strong base for early childhood development at a foundation phase. Around
80 000 foundation phase teachers being trained — I think all of us have that report — are already there. That is recognition that a base is very important in education.

I think the Department of Basic Education has actually reported in both Houses that they have now embarked on a programme of identifying pathways for development — the academic field, the technical field and the vocational areas.

These are things that we actually have at the current moment which we need to respond to. Seventy-four schools — its reports that we have — are being piloted this year 2018-19 in selected ordinary schools and 26 subjects are ... [Inaudible.] I wouldn’t like to go into them because ... [Inaudible.] ... we actually have it.

Mathematics and Science projects have been reported to us and the details have been given in terms of where the difficulties are, where the challenges are and what it is that we are trying.


Basic Education is working in collaboration with the Manufacturing, Engineering and Related Services Skills Education Training Authorities, MerSETA, to expose learners to the workplace just to make them realise that ... You know, it’s not enough to talk to the child about the workplace and say these are the things you must do. But when a child sees the workplace the child is able to pick up and understand what the future holds for him.

Not long ago — I think two months ago — I think Eskom was actually in EThekwini, KwaZulu-Natal, and they ran a programme for all young students who are doing Science. I think I had five that came from my close family. I heard that they had actually phoned me and said, maluma, next time we want to do engineering, and that and that. It’s part of trying to actually work on this problem that we are facing.

I don’t want to go into the things we have said we will do in universities ... the enrolment that is increasing ... the attempt that we have made to increase access so that we can have professionals that come out of there to fill in those areas that are actually problematic for children.


Special programmes are run in terms of those people that must actually go and do some work in education. They are running ... We actually need to support those programmes; even teachers that are supposed to do some work in specialised areas. This is work that we are actually doing.

Information communications technology, ICT, is being rolled out in different schools to ensure that learners actually have access to learning and educators are able to share views with other people. So these are ... I can go into a whole lot of things because ... [Inaudible.] ... a whole lot of progress reports, but we have it.

All I can say is that we are saying that literacy rates are a problem but why do these literacy rates have a colour? Have we ever asked ourselves when a child is unable to read and we look at the colour, we find that the colour will actually be determined ...
We’ll actually all agree that it will not be white. Why is that so? Is it not historical? Is it not something that all of us must work towards, in assisting and changing the system? That’s why, even yesterday and on other days, the President said we must change our apartheid spatial planning and our focus so that when we put in a settlement all the things that we do must be able to address ... and


allow a child to feel that he or she is actually living in a South Africa — and in a qualitative South Africa — where he or she is going to be a better person in the future.

Teachers that are not able to read ... If we can call on all the teachers here will we not be able to see colour? What actually points to that? If you talk about specialised areas would we not see all those areas where we have people without ... I mean, in those previously disadvantaged areas, are they not the ones that we are going to have problems with? Let me share an experience with you in relation to this area. I have been a Maths teacher. The reason why I became a Maths teacher was because I didn’t have a teacher in my class. And if I didn’t have a teacher in my class and today I was supposed to teach a child, how would I be able to do that? The focus of those areas was not actually given attention to.

I can tell you if you were to be given a Science teacher, that Science teacher would actually be ... would not even be teaching ... would actually be an Afrikaans teacher who was going to teach you in Afrikaans when you didn’t understand a hell of what it was, during that time. These are replicates of what we are trying to reverse today and I think all of us should pay attention to the kind ...


what ... we need to pay attention to what this South Africa is all about and the challenges that we are actually facing; and we face them.

I agree with you, hon Londt, when you say let’s come together and collectively look at this problem, and make it belong to us as a country. I think we can actually find many solutions to that. I agree with you on that.

When the economy is not performing, which is a problem — and that’s the reason why we do what we do in schools and try to build as much skills — budgets will go down, and when they go down they affect every item. So it’s not like a deliberate thing to say no, no, no, today we are going to take money from Education and we are going to give it to so and so, and we will drop Education. No, when ... or education infrastructure. When a budget drops it does have an effect in all the aspects.

Government tries to ensure that those areas are never affected but because there is inflation — even if you don’t change the budget — it has a negative effect because then what we are supposed to deliver actually becomes less.


We are doing this because as an ANC-led government we are drawing our lessons from the fact that when you ... We draw lessons from knowing that education is key. But what is this education?

We are saying so because a number of people have actually captured what education should be all about. George Washington Carver, who was a botanist, said it is the key to unlocking the door of freedom. We agree with him because education itself is freedom. That is what Freire actually said. Plato, who was a Mathematics teacher, strangely said that once you educate somebody you are actually bringing in love. It’s love or beauty. You are actually bringing in love. So all those things are actually allowing us to understand what it is.

Nelson Mandela said the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world is education. Malcolm X agreed with him when he said it’s the passport to the future, for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today. So all of us do what we do because this is what is supposed to be done.

William Yeats, who was a poet, said what education ... He wanted us not to see education as something that you use to feel pain but a


lighting to fire, and he said ... the movement from darkness to light. This is what is actually informing us as a government in South Africa.

One of the things I want to mention as I close is that ... start from the beginning; start from the base — early childhood development. We have programmes all of us are aware of. Secondary basic teacher education — there is a programme. We have already agreed and there is nothing new that I can actually bring in.

Higher education in terms of universities and Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVETs, has been put in. We have debated this matter. We have looked at all the issues and we have agreed on them, and that’s why we all agreed that without ensuring that we provide access to education through free education we won’t be able to move forward. All of us agree on that aspect and programmes are actually going on.

We said our TVETs are not what we want and we said that we agree that the private sector must be in partnership with the public sector in order to improve them. That is what is happening. This afternoon I met with an insurance company that is looking squarely


at that aspect. Tomorrow morning I am having breakfast with TVETs in Mpumalanga together with the private sector where we will be discussing progress in terms of how far we have intervened in this programme in the TVETs. These are things which are there on the ground that is actually assisting us in moving forward. I must say that there is remarkable progress that the private sector is coming into ... is actually putting its effort into to assist us to move forward.

We do this because we know ... and we do all these programmes that we have made ... we want to influence thought. We want to influence the future. We want to see our society developing, but society, nature and thought are inter-related and they influence each other. So you can’t go into a settlement that is unstructured and want to see education that is actually better. That’s why, as an executive, we’ll very soon have a report — which is what the President already started doing yesterday — to point out the things that we must do across ... so that we can actually influence the lives of people, and ensure that our young people live in an environment where they will aspire to be better and be able to do what Che Guevara said they must do, which is defend their country and defend what has been accomplished by their parents. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Mr M SAZIWA (Eastern Cape): Hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP let me acknowledge the already established protocol of this House. It is a privilege for me to represent the Eastern Cape in this important debate that takes place during a month that we acknowledge the role women played in our struggle for freedom in our country, against one of the evil government systems in the world. [Interjections.]


Mr M SAZIWA (Eastern Cape): The Eastern Cape understands this debate as one of the fundamental interventions so as to create an opportunity to asses whether our education system fulfils the priority needs of present and future generations to come.

Deputy Chairperson, the Eastern Cape Department of Education, has an overall budget of R34,7 billion. Out of that R7,8 million has been allocated to Early Childhood Development, ECD. Out of that
R5,3 million has been used for the conversion of qualified ECD practitioners to post-level one educators. Further, 1 186 pre-Grade R educators have been trained on National Curriculum Framework and bursaries have further been set aside for ECD practitioners to acquire NQF level qualification. Chairperson, all these attempts


serve as early interventions in ensuring that children are prepared for the areas of interest.

The province has also distributed learner support material in the form of numeracy, literacy, construction, fantasy, outdoor kits and training has been done to equip those practitioners to assist our learners. For it is our view that if you do not catch them young, by the time they get to both the General Education and Training, GET band, as well as the Further Education and Training, FET, band, they shall have made wrong choices in terms of their career paths.

Further, the department has awarded bursaries to 600 children in our schools to pursue the Bachelor of Education, Bed, in maths and science which is a four-year programme with guaranteed appointment and placement upon completion. This is funded through the Skills Development Fund and currently 300 of these are doing their second year and 300 are doing their first year.

Further, the following programmes are targeting unemployed youth. One hundred and twenty unemployed youth have been placed on construction leadership; these upon completion will be placed in schools as a means of creating new ventures. Fifty information and


communication technology, ICT, learners have been also assisted in order in order to assist schools in technical support. Fifty social workers were placed in specials schools from the unemployed youth. One hundred and sixty nine interns for office administration and all of the above have been done through partnership with the Education, Training and Development Practices Sector Education and Training Authority, ETDP Seta. This is just a small intervention that the Department of Education is trying to make in assisting our children in order for them to access the job market. However, most importantly, our view as the Eastern Cape is that to create mechanisms of equipping our children to be job makers, what is important is to create mechanisms of equipping our children to be job makers than to be job seekers. That is why we call upon on all in our country, to ensure that a diverse set of private workplace and community-based providers should be supported to offer targeted workplace training as well as youth development programmes.

We call upon on all in our country to ensure that strong regulatory bodies are established to analyse demand, ensure a sustainable range of courses is available and monitoring quality that Setas should play a more effective role in the production of skills that are required to meet the immediate needs of the employer.


Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members of this august House, towards our conclusion, it is important to note that for all of the above to be realised, we must ensure that access to public schools is not subtly denied through the use of language policies and fees structures by school governing bodies, because more often than not, due to the use of language policy, our learners cannot access such schools, due to high fee structures; our learners cannot access those schools.

Deputy Chairperson, the World Economic Forum recently highlighted in its 2016 future of jobs report that the skills most needed in the workplace by 2020 will include complex problem solving, critical thinking, creativity, people management, emotional intelligence, judgement, decision-making and negotiating amongst others. That is why we call upon on all of us to support the three approaches in delivering basic education to our learners. That is academic, vocational and technical career pathways so as to equip our children with life-long learning that will enable them to be self-reliant and self-sufficient.

Hon Chairperson, Frantz Fanon in his book, The Wretchet of the Earth

once said and I quote, “Each generation must, out of relative


obscurity, discover its mission, fulfil it, or betray it.” This places a duty upon on all of us to lend a hand in creating a brighter future for our children than to want to use failures as a political football. Let us be part of the Thuma Mina campaign.

We cannot afford to go back to the painful history of the Bantu Education era of 1953. Our children must not be victims of animosities of the past and we must refuse to go back there by throwing away all the animosities of the past to the world of oblivion.

It is important for us to take heed by one of the calls that were made by our Reverend Bishop Tutu when he once said and I quote, “When people argue against you, people must learn not to raise their voices, but to improve the arguments.” I rest my case. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M M CHABANGU: Deputy Chair of the NCOP, members present, three observers, the House at large, today’s debate is about the state of education in South African schools, focusing on the skills to equip South African children for the labour market. But the reality is that the South African public education system is setting up the


children of our country for failure in the job market, and will result in the country not having the necessary skills to grow and develop the economy.

Across the world and our continent, education systems are preparing children for the jobs of the 21st century but here in South Africa we are not even able to prepare our children for the jobs of the 20th century.

The most basic form of education is the ability to read and write and nearly every job in the world skilled or unskilled requires employees to be able to read, write and comprehend basic education.

These skills are taught at a primary level, and are continuously developed. So, how do South African children perform in reading and writing?

A study released last year found that close to 80% of Grade 4 pupils in this country cannot read with full understanding. How is the department going to teach our children maths, science, history, geography and economics when it cannot even teach them how to read?


Maths and science along with critical thinking have always been central to the modern education and the modern world. So, many of the innovations born in the 20th century were a product of people properly trained and skilled in maths, science and critical thinking.

But in the 21st century, IT and computering skills require continues to grow in importance, and are just as important as readings, writing, maths and science.

Throughout the developed and also large parts of South Africa, the developed world computer and information technology skills have become the central of the education system as they prepare the youth of their countries for future.

In Russia, but more especially in China, massive investment is equipping youth people with IT skills is bearing the fruits. As China once considered a country which produced cheap counterfeit technology, is now producing some of the most advanced and sophisticated forms of technology, particularly where it comes to artificial intelligence, hardware and software.


This did not happen by chance but was a result of concentrated effort by the Chinese government to ensure that IT skills form part of the education that all children receive. From a very early age, children at schools across China are exposed to computers and are taught how to use them and the software.

We could be doing the same but the Department of Education has no capacity and is being mismanaged by corrupt officials. It is because of these officials that we have over 11 000 primary schools without computers at the present moment.

If so many of our children do not see a computer until they are in high school or even worse university level, we will never be able to prepare our youth for the job market because basic computer literacy is a must in the world we live in today.

But how can one even worry about children not having access to computer when there are still schools in this country that have no toilets, or schools that go without water and electricity for weeks on end.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chabangu, take your seat. Let me recognise the hon Chief Whip. On what point are you rising? [Interjections.]

Mr S J MOHAI: It’s on a point of order, Deputy Chair. The hon member, as you normally cautioned in the House, you should be mindful of the language that he uses. To make a statement that the Department of Education in the country is managed by corrupt officials is unfounded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COP: Hon member, I did hear that. Yes, it is in that debate. We can’t therefore allege or make allegation a statement of fact because if he say corrupt officials
... No, I was waiting for member to stand up. I heard it, corrupt officials, whereas there is no record from any court of law that somebody has been found guilty of corruption.

Therefore, hon member, can you just withdraw that statement or rephrase it? [Interjections.] No, no, take your seat! [interjections.] Take your seat! I am busy with an order here. [Interjections.] No, no, no, take your seat!. [Interjections.] No, take your seat! [Interjections.] You know it very well. Hon member,


you should know better that whilst the presiding officer is giving a report, you can’t be standing up and jumping on my throat. No, you are wrong! [Interjections.] You are wrong! Hon member, I don’t even have to consult Hansard. I heard that. Can you please withdraw for alleging that officials of the Department of Education are corrupt?

Mr M M CHABANGU: We could be doing the same but the Department of Education has no capacity as is being mismanaged by unqualified officials.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Now you have changed your statement.

Mr M M CHABANGU: The Minister of Basic ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chabangu, earlier on, you didn’t say unqualified, you said corrupt.

Mr M M CHABANGU: But then, you said I must rephrase it.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chabangu, I ordered you to withdraw the reference of officials of the Department of Education as corrupt.

Mr M M CHABANGU: I withdraw for the sake of progress.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCO: No, withdraw! [Interjections.] Withdraw! [Interjections.]

Mr M M CHABANGU: I withdraw for the sake of progress.

Ms N P KONI: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Withdraw, hon member! I want ... [Inaudible.]

Mr M M CHABANGU: I am withdrawing.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much.


Mr M M CHABANGU: The Minister of Basic Education and her department do not realise the irreversible damage they are doing to our country.

Ms N P KONI: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what point of order are you rising, hon member? Can you take your seat, hon member?

Ms N P KONI: Did you just say I jumped on you? [Laughter.] Did you just say I must stop jumping on you?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a figure of speech, on my throat.

Mr M M CHABANGU: Withdraw!

Ms N P KONI: No, you must withdraw that because jumping from here will happen.



Ms N P KONI: Yes?


Ms N P KONI: No. So, you are changing your statement again and hon Chabangu is not allowed to change his statement. I am challenging you to withdraw because I do not want to disturb my hon member on the podium, and for the sake of peace, I am going to leave it.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: For the purpose of your peace.

Ms N P KONI: But you must withdraw, even if it is on Sunday or when. But you must know that you must withdraw. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no, this is a serious matter. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, this is a serious matter. The member alleges that. [Interjections.] No, it is a serious matter. She alleges that I said she jumped on me, and I know what I said. [Interjections.] Okay, no, no, I know what I said. Now, for the purpose of ... No, no, order!
For the purpose of the records of this, I will rule that we consult Hansard and then come back to this House with Hansard to quote


exactly what I said because I know I did not say she jumped on me. Alright, in the next sitting of the House, I will provide you with records of Hansard. Thank you very much. Continue with the debate, hon Chabangu.

Mr M M CHABANGU: Can I get protection from North West, Deputy Chairperson. Am I protected? [Interjections.]


Mr M M CHABANGU: The Minister of Basic Education and her department do not realise the irreversible damage they are doing to our country, we are falling behind, and if nothing is done soon, it will be nearly impossible to catch up.

This government continues to talk about the Fourth Industrial Revolution, but the foundation of our participation in the Fourth Industrial Revolution is based on the skills we have available. This department is not able to equip our children for the jobs of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. It is said in English “a faith divorced from deeds is lifeless as a corpse”. It has failed our children, and by failing children, it is destroying our future.


Therefore, as the EFF, we say the state of education in South African schools is terrible and it needs to be changed for the betterment of our children. I thank you.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members of the NCOP, guests, special delegates from the provinces, I thank this opportunity to make a contribution to this very important debate on a motion raised by hon Londt. I do agree that the concerns that he raised are genuine. Nonetheless, there is a need to acknowledge what the Department of Basic Education as well as Higher Education has done. It’s not true to paint a picture that creates a perception that nothing has been done to equip our children, students with the skill that they will require to be absorbed in the world of work or start their own businesses.

Since the inception of the democratic dispensation, South Africa has had a revolutionary and developmental education system which is presumed on ensuring that education is used as a powerful empowerment tool as well as a pillar for our economy. The ready to govern document of the African National Congress envisages a South Africa, where all people are empowered, through education and training, for active involvement as citizens in the democratic


process and as workers in the economy of the country. I wish to go on to say to them also to be beneficiaries and employers in the economic landscape.

President Cyril Ramaphosa in state of the nation address 2018 said and I quote:

Our prosperity as a nation depends on our ability to take full advantage of rapid technological change. We urgently need to develop our capabilities in the areas of science, technology and innovation.

Maybe just to remind hon members on a few things that the Department of Basic Education in particular has done to address the issues that hon Londt has raised. Firstly, we have created a system whereby the early childhood development, ECD, phase of our education system as a foundation phase has been strengthened. The Department of Basic Education in collaboration with the Department of Social Development has seen to it that the teachers or the practitioners at that level their qualifications are raised to level 4. We all know all along the ECD centres have been run by ...



... omama nje basemakhaya, ogogo bezingane ...


... that are not particularly trained, but today the Department of Education has made it a point that all teachers who are handling the toddlers at that level at least have a level 4 qualification - that is an achievement. The Department of Basic Education has also invested in the infrastructure. You find that the ECD classrooms are now attached to the primary schools. It is the very same department that is actually put in place the subsidy for the toddlers. Before 1994, the issue of ECD was not an issue of government; it was an issue for nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and private organisations. Ever since 1994, teaching and learning at the level of ECD has been formalised and there is a subsidy allocation that has been made formally, to ensure that children eat and have teaching aids and teachers get the stipend for ECD. That is an achievement that we need to acknowledge if we were fair to the department.

Indeed, it is true that we are not doing that much of work in so far as, skilling is concerned. Those of us who went through Bantu


Education during our times, would remember that at primary school level already you did your gardening, craftwork which was involving the creation or ...


... ukwakha izinto ezinjengezinkamba, izinkezo, imikhonto kanye nokuthunga. Zonke lezo zinto ...


... you would actually choose as a learner where your strength is - if you want to create a doll then it’s a doll. If you want to create a grass mat – that was skilling. It started at primary school level and it went on and on. We had high schools that were called technical high schools that offered home economics, carpentry, and all those skilling subjects with a view to ensuring that students as they progress they at least have a skill that they can survive on. I think the introduction of three-stream model that the hon Deputy Minister spoke about earlier on seeks to bring that back to ensure that students do not have to wait until they have completed a high school before they have a skill. They can acquire the skills as they go through high school education and further strengthen their skills


as they enter the technical, vocational and training, Tvet system of education.

In order to ensure that we are skilling our people to be ready for participation in the economic landscape, the National Development Plan, NDP, has set a target of 30 000 artisans per annum by 2030. As of now where we sit, there has been a steady growth. In the year 2014-15, as a country, we have been able to produce 14 389 artisans per annum. According to the records in 2016-17 we have been able to produce 21 188 artisans. Those are the people who are equipped with scarce skill. They can be absorbed by the industry or they can be able to start their own small businesses if they are being assisted with capital that they would need to start their businesses. If we were to look at the provincial picture ... [Time expired.]

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, members and fellow South Africans, Albert Einstein once said:

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.


Deputy Chairperson, our children are geniuses like everyone else and are no less intelligent than other children in this world. Our children are the future and have gifts and talents like their counterparts all over the world but...


...ikhon’ingxaki, ingxaki ikhona tata kwaye inkulu.


Something is terribly wrong in our education system. Our children need an education system that prepares them not just for jobs but to create jobs and wealth. They need an education system that prepares them to create value by starting up their small businesses. It is those small businesses that become the backbone of our economy.

The world is standing on the brink of the fourth industrial revolution that will fundamentally alter the way we live; the way we work and relate to one another. This industrial revolution is evolving exponentially rather than at a moderate pace, moreover it is disrupting almost every industry in the world. As we prepare for this fourth industrial revolution, our children desperately need and


to understand and excel in mathematics; science and technology but guess what and sadly so, this is not the case.

In 2015 South African maths and science education has been shown to be amongst the worst in the world. She is the second last according to the largest ever global school rankings. A report by the organisation for economic co-operation and development put our country behind Ghana whilst Asian countries excelled claiming the top five positions. Old English Collaborative Education Online, OECEO findings are based on the score test from the 15-year olds from 76 countries. Out of 76 countries, Singapore was ranked number one and South Africa guess what, number 75.

In their global information technology report in April 2015, the World Economic Forum ranked South Africa last in the quality of mathematics and science education. As if this is not enough, South Africa finished close to last, it ranked 139 out of 143 countries when looking at the overall quality of the education system. The authors of this report sent out a stern warning to countries at the bottom of the ranking and made the following remarks:


There are no short cuts to improved learning outcomes in the post 2015 world economy when knowledge and skills have become the global currency and key to better jobs and better lives.

The report further noted that:

The quality of schooling in our country is a powerful indicator of wealth that countries will produce in the long run.

With this sad and tragic state of poor quality of schooling and education in our country I beg to ask this question – how will our children create wealth for this country and sustain themselves and their children when we are all dead? What kind of a country are we going to leave behind for our children? How will they be able to live and face the fourth industrial revolution when we are not sufficiently equipping them? These are the questions that we must honestly answer.

The economic model will need innovative people. The fourth industrial revolution scholars have projected that in 2020, just around the corner, five million jobs will be lost due to technological advancements; robotics and artificial intelligence are


at the heart of this revolution and our children must be prepared and be equipped to face the world that is coming to their faces.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, members and fellow South Africans, every child is a genius. We just need to get our education system right to unlock their potential. We have no time to waste anymore; no date to spare and we can never defer this matter anymore because our children are already paying the price because of our system that has failed them and left them unemployed.

The Labour Survey of 2018 has indicated that youth unemployment for ages between 15 and 34 – years is sitting at more than 50% resulting in 6,1 million unemployed youth in our country. Some of the young people are so discouraged with the labour markets resulting to them giving up looking for jobs. Graduates of Tvet colleges still need jobs because they do not have experience and the courses that they have been given seem to be below the market value. This is a ticking time bomb.

But all is not doom and gloom because the DA has a plan. Our education policy is focused on instilling quality, accountability and leadership into the system. In national government we will have


a sustained focused and systematic approach to improving education; education budgets; policies and operational decisions will be made consistently be subjected to a simple litmus test of whether each will improve educational value in South Africa classrooms.

We will do away with the bad ANC policies like progression of learners. This policy is killing our children. As the DA we will work with the provincial departments to ensure that every child has an opportunity to learn in a safe and supportive environment. Unlike what is now under the ANC-led government that spends R2,6 billion on VIP protection for Ministers who live in R9 million houses each with a braai area costing R2 million while our children are learning in mud schools with no electricity and using pit toilets. This money could be used to build 500 state of the art schools...

Ms N P KONI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: This is abuse. We are always discouraged to be drowning speakers but today it is the speaker who is drowning us. Can you please ask the member to debate properly? We do not have hearing problems and do not remember of any member here raising a point where they complain about having a hearing problem.



member, can you please take your seat? That is not a point of order.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: ... at R500 million each could be built with

R2,6 million. Shame on you ANC. We will ensure that our children as the DA emerge from schools having mastered the fundamentals of literacy and numeracy levels at international bench mark levels.

We will establish as the DA an enabling environment for educational excellence; improve school management and teacher quality; promote accountability through appropriate assessment of academic performances; align education outcomes with the world by regularly reviewing the curriculum to ensure that it equips learners for participation in a competitive and global knowledge economy. Again this is something that the ANC does understand.

In conclusion, I want to say that the DA is ready to govern. We do not need to change but we need to change the government. Thank you Chair.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister. Young people in South Africa have long suffered the social exclusion in the


mainstream of life. This has happened both in their schooling life and in the aftermath of their school years. It is specifically the black young South Africans who have been perpetually subjected to this sorry state of affairs.

During the apartheid era, black youth in South Africa were excluded from quality education. This was due to a variety of reasons including limited syllabi, which was biased against black children acquiring any form of education. Poorly resourced schools in both infrastructure and personnel, lack of adequate and proper funding, poor support from the system, to mention but few issues, this caused relative deprivation amongst the youth; the effects of which are still evident to this day.

In the post apartheid era, sadly during a democratic dispensation, young people in South Africa are held hostage to a stuttering education system that hardly produces any quality, especially to the previously disadvantaged.

The system has leapfrogged from Outcomes Based Education, OBE to National Curriculum Statement, NCS; NCS to revised NCS which introduced Annual National Assessment, ANA, that was again later


abandoned; to Curriculum Assessment Policy Statements, CAPS, and of later what is now called Jik’imfundo. There is obviously no certainty of where the authorities are taking the country to.

Indeed, policy direction is important in delivering educational programmes towards self-employment and entrepreneurship as a key avenue to overcome youth joblessness. Obviously, an ever changing policy, like is the case with South Africa, is not likely to produce the outcomes that are strong enough to overcome these many labour market challenges of the global village.

It has been repeatedly stated that of the total number of children that enter the system in Grade 1, two-thirds of them will make it in record time to Grade 12 in South Africa. And of those who write Grade 12 final examination, only about 30% will qualify to go to university; actually, to be precise, in 2017 bachelor passes were 28,7%.

As a matter of fact, mathematics and science are key subjects for careers to technical skilling. Also, most black people who pass mathematics and science well-enough to enter university courses in the natural sciences, engineering, medicine and health sciences, and


commerce, all still come from the former Model C schools. The irony of this situation is that those individuals who have a good education come from a privileged background and don’t need to be entrepreneurs to make a living.

And therefore, in order to close this gap of social exclusion caused by high unemployment rate and unemployability of our youth, there needs to be a strong link between our education system on the one hand and the strategy to promote employment and entrepreneurship and absorption into the labour market on the other hand. This is the fundamental principle that will enhance the link and keep youth in touch with the labour market and minimise joblessness.

This view has been backed by strong advocacy in some quarters for active policies to encourage firms to take on interns and train on- the-job including the public sector internships.

Of late, another stronger lobby voice is for the scraping of experience requirements as a condition for job entrance. Links need to be created in South Africa between educational institutions and the industry and the labour market so that young people can explore the opportunities for the job market and self-employment through


practical and direct involvement in local business and on-the-job experiences.

It is a pity that to date, thousands of young people who have completed their studies at Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges still remain uncertificated because of lack of these opportunities.

Research has further indicated that passion for starting up a small business has to be driven by vision in order for the business to be sustainable.

The global entrepreneurship monitory posted that a small percentage of start-up Small Medium and Micro-sized Enterprises, SMMEs, can expect to create 20 jobs in their first five years of business. The reason for this is that SMMEs in South Africa are driven by necessity or the absence of other viable sources of income rather than being driven by vision.

Not many Co-operatives, Co-ops, and SMMEs last up to five years and very few develop into high growth firms if any. Small businesses initiatives that are forced to entrepreneurship of necessity are not


likely to be successful. This is social exclusion in practice, which starts with education and ends up in the labour market world.

It is further perpetuated by SMME policy in that support for small business and SMMEs is mainly at start-up only, whereas an approach of continued support is more appropriate in cases where the aim is to counter unemployment and turn unemployed individuals into successful small business practitioners.

The NCOP practically experienced this during the taking parliament to the people in Mdantsane in the Eastern Cape. I thank you, Chair.

Ms T MOTARA: Deputy Chair, Deputy Minister and hon members, the futurist Thomas Frey predicted the following will be new job titles that will exist before 2030: Alternative currency bankers; seed capitalist; global system architects; locationist; waste data managers; urban agriculturist; 3D printing engineers; book to app converters; social education specialists; privacy managers; nano- medics and elevated tube transport engineers, to mention but a few.

The ANC in 1994 Policy Framework for Education and Training noted that the education and training system under the ANC government must


be developed in an integrated way in order to develop an education and training system, which is characterised by the learning of a broad range of knowledge, skills and competencies.

In order for education and training to contribute significantly to development socially and economically, individuals have to be empowered to partake actively in society in democratic processes as well as in the economy. This means that the education and training system had to address, amongst other things, the need to continually upgrade skills in line with the rapidly changing and dynamic national and international economy.

At our 54th National Conference we noted that the 4th Industrial Revolution is a focus of attention, as it contains within its possibilities of disrupting current economic and social structures profoundly over the next 20 years.

The task for South Africa therefore is to plan effectively, position itself optimally and engage proactively with these rapidly evolving technologies.


It further noted and resolved that: All children of South Africa must get equal opportunities in terms of infrastructure in all schools, if we are to maximize the opportunities of the 4th Industrial Revolution.

There has to be a linkage between education and labour market. Statistics SA in 2017 quoted that the highest level of poverty is amongst individuals with the lowest level of education; whereas the lowest poverty level is among those with higher education; and as you quite rightly pointed out Deputy Minister that this in South Africa has got a colour perspective.

The move towards a knowledge economy places different demands on the labour force: Higher upskilled education levels; lifelong learning regardless of employment type or previous education – this includes teachers; decision-making and problem-solving skills, which are not task-specific; Technological and ICT skills; and inter as well as intra-personal skills such as communication. The low-economic growth rates leading to poor employment growth. The employment growth is not sufficient for the large numbers of youth coming to the labour market for the first time.


Sectors where people work and the types of jobs are changing: The absence of low-wage jobs in the manufacturing sector, structural shift towards a service economy and dependence on high-skilled financial services sector.

There is currently a structural mismatch between labour demand and supply. This is what we need to address. The economy and the labour market show a demand for high skilled workers, but there is a surplus of low-skilled workers.

International Experience and Research shows us for instance, that the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, showed us an international comparative study designed to measure trends in mathematics and science achievement at the fourth and eighth grades, as well as to collect information about educational context such as students’ schools, teachers, and homes that may be related to student achievement.

In 2015, the US fourth-graders’ average score in mathematics and science was 539, which was higher than the average scores of students in 34 education systems and lower than the average scores of students in 10 education systems.


Singapore had the highest score across the maths and science field, followed by Hong Kong, Korea and China and the labour market depicts this outcome

The World Bank recently released its South Africa Economic update and suggests that greater research and development efforts are likely to create more jobs rather than shed jobs in net terms.

The resilience of the South African high-tech manufacturing sector, at a time when lower-tech manufacturing sectors are shedding jobs, is seen as supportive of this view; this is according to the World Bank, in 2017.

However, the nature of the labour required is likely to be more skill intensive, which could exacerbate the structural unemployment due to skills mismatch prevalent in South Africa; again, this is what we have to address, the skills mismatch.

The German Academy of Science and Technology recently surveyed SMEs to establish their skills requirements and make recommendations for the Fourth Industrial Revolution. The findings and recommendations


include amongst others, workplace training, which is what you spoke about, Deputy Minister.

The Fourth Industrial Revolution is making new digital professional development formats that allow training content to be precisely tailored to the knowledge and needs of employees available.

Small and Medium Enterprises should receive a special support to help them develop the skills needed for the Fourth Industrial Revolution to prevent a growing digital divide between large and small companies; and schools should include media and digitisation skills to help equip students for the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

On the brink of this Fourth Industrial Revolution, the South African industry faces an extra challenge recently highlighted by the World Bank, namely that the shortage of a highly-skilled labour force severely limits innovation. Increasing the supply of skilled labour will take time and will require strengthened primary and secondary education, as well as adult education, vocational training and entrepreneurship programmes.


The government’s focus on radical economic transformation and inclusive growth should not be excluded from policy discussions around the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

The rapid pace of technology development and adoption in society may marginalise those that cannot afford new technology further. This quandary should be addressed by creating mechanisms that ensure equitable access to or at a minimum benefit from new technologies, as well as training information about educational context as well as upskilling to ensure that both the poor and lower-income groups are not marginalised further by rapid technological disruptions.

The focus therefore remains on progressively realising the provision of quality basic and higher education and training in South Africa. This is an imperative, as education is an apex priority of the ANC and government, which is a critical component of building a democracy with social content. As well as contributing to the developmental state and the national democratic society that the ANC is advancing the country towards.

In the 2018 state of the nation address, the President highlighted the need for urgency in dealing with the high youth unemployment


rate. The education system thus needs to play a crucial role in equipping learners for the world of work, and for positions in areas of scarce skills. Critical to this, is the need to respond to the ever-changing demands of information driven economy.

It is safe to say, without fear of contradiction, that the ANC-led government is adequately positioning itself to response to this and is implementing inter-departmental programmes and policies to respond to the Fourth Industrial Revolution. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D MITCHELL (Western Cape): Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister and colleagues, thank you very much for the opportunity to take part in what I deem a very important debate today. Thank you to the response as well. But before I get to my actual speech, I think in light of what has been said about the report released about the reading or the literacy rates of Grade 4 learners, I think that it is imperative and important for me to highlight the following:

In the Western Cape, we are leading once again, 45% are able to read and write in Grade 4; with Gauteng at 31% and Limpopo, a shocking 9,2%. So, Deputy Minister, I think it’s a great concern for all


South Africans. Hon Chair, education remains pivotal to ensure that millions of South Africans have any chance of escaping poverty.

As public representatives, we are blessed with wonderful opportunity to engage with citizens across the country. It is through our engagements and lived experiences that we are able to understand the issues which are affecting the people of South Africa, so that we as the government can find the necessary solutions to address respective issues. Building a solid educational foundation should not be taken lightly.

With the right foundation in place, the possibility of our children to become not only educator citizen, but proactive change agents in the adulthood is far more lightly. Given the importance of building conducive foundation, we need a government that is efficient, caring and responsive to the educational needs of our youth. The key to equipping our children with the necessary skills to compete in the labour market and in business lies in the focus on quality basic education.

This is the logic behind the Western Cape Education Department’s emphasis on Early Childhood Development, ECD, support, maintaining


quality standard and e-learning in order to ultimately ensure that our youth can live a life they value. Hon Deputy Chair, neurological research shows that the early years of a child plays a key role in a child’s cognitive development.

It is in this regard that our government has invested heavily in the early childhood development. In the 2016-17 budget year, the DA-led Western Cape government set aside an amount of R56 million for Grade R pupils, with R15 million set aside to build 108 new classrooms. In addition, our government provided a grant for the training of 120 students from technical and vocational education and training, TVet, colleges, as assistance to ECD practitioners and Grade R teachers to provide support and ensure that our learners receive the best education care possible.

Hon Deputy Chair, as the Western Cape government we’re placed providing equal opportunities with redress for learners at the heart of all our educational projects, ensuring that no learner is left behind. That is why the number of learners attending no fee schools has increased by 58% in the last five years, 580 learners to be exact.


As the caring government that we are, 92% of our provincial education budget is focused on uplifting learners from our poorest and the most rural communities through the provision of textbooks, stationery, leaner transport and feeding schemes. A great deal of work done by our government is focused on supporting our neediest learners.

Through various initiatives such as the introduction of collaboration schools in our poorer communities, we put a great deal of emphasis on providing quality education, and the Western Cape Department of Education has been the driving force behind this effort. Our department had worked to culminate the province and to achieve the highest retention rate for Grade 10-12, the highest in the country.

Put in simple terms, Mr Deputy Chair, this means that the Western Cape has far fewer dropouts than any other province in this country. It is perhaps no surprise why we also lead the country with the best Mathematics results. Since the DA took over in 2009 in the Western Cape, the pass rate for matric in quintile 1 schools was 57,5%.


In 2017, it was recorded as 73,8%. Pass rate increases of 12,9% each points; in quintile 2 at 14,8% each points and in quintile 3, that was also recorded as 14,8%. This is most significant in quintile 1 and I will tell you why now. It is because bachelors passes in quintile 1 to 3 has more than double under the DA-led Western Cape government. The bachelors pass rate went up from 8,7% to 22,3%, Mr Deputy Chair.

This means that close to 25% of our learners are earning a bachelor pass in schools located in the poorest of the poor communities in this province. In preparing the next generation of young professionals and entrepreneurs, the DA in the Western Cape is miles ahead of other provinces. In efforts to support our learners, not only in the classrooms, but outside the classroom environment, two of the years, our government has prioritised quality afterschool programme as a game changer across this province.

In the Premier state of the province address, “the number of learners engaged in regular and consistent afterschool programme has increased to over 72 000, at 264%increase since 2014.” This clearly sets the DA-led Western Cape apart from the incapable government of the ANC. Research shows that extra-curricular activities and


afterschool programmes contribute to learner’s developing stronger minds and academic rigor such as in-depth reading and complex problem solving.

It has also helped to create constructive opportunities of our young people in order to prevent them from becoming involved in gangsterism and other antisocial activities. The South African education system will fail young people if it doesn’t cater and adapt for the modern needs of the market in light of the Fourth Industrial Revolution in which they are expected to thrive.

In this digital era, it is important that we consistently find new ways to catch up and to ensure the knowledge imparted to our children is relevant and useful so far, to prepare them for life after school. In this regard, the Western Cape is again leading by example. We have an e-learning game changer that has introduced a technical advanced dynamic to the education in the Western Cape.

It mitigates the effects of increasing learner numbers in the province and also narrows the gaps between schools that are more resourced to those that are poorer. We are achieving this by enhancing the teaching and learning experience of Western Cape


learners predominantly in Mathematics and languages through the use of technology and improved digital infrastructure at our schools.

Hon Deputy Chair, the entrepreneurship game changer which was set with the targets –we don’t just speak of the programmes – of R11 300 to get into the labour market by 2019, has been adopted by the Western Cape government. That will equip and align learners with the required skills needed to thrive in the South African economy.

The Western Cape is focusing on a number of people passing Maths at 50% or above, to promote artisanship which will in turn significantly reduce the unemployment rate. The Western Cape is also committed to improving ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, just take your seat! Hon Lewis, on what point are you rising?

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, I wanted to check because I’m like lost the speaker is speaking as if there is another country somewhere. So, I wanted to ask if he could take a question.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you prepared to take a question, hon Mitchell?

Mr D MITCHELL: No, I’ve got 18 seconds left.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he’s not prepared to take a question. ... [Interjections.] No, no, no, hon Magwevu, I’ll make a ruling. He’s not prepared to take a question. You can continue hon Mitchell!

Mr D MITCHELL: Mr Deputy Chair, it won’t feel like a different country because you feel the DA difference once you come to the Western Cape. When it comes to education in South Africa, the Western Cape story provides a synopsis of how education ought to be directed. The Western Cape’s modern and holistic approach to education had ensured that those at the lowest end of the society receive an equally decent education as the wealthy counterpart.

Hon Deputy Chair, in conclusion if I may ... [Time expired] [Applause.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, may I just bring something to us, don’t think that I’m rude. When a member wants to raise a point, if you didn’t raise your hand, I won’t recognise you, because I don’t know if you are calling or seeking an attention of a service officer. Be on your feet so that I recognise you. Please!

Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. The challenges of a managed post education transformation process are evident in our everyday day lives. These challenges have largely been attributed to the historical legacy of Apartheid.

Even though there has been significant progress towards the creation of a nonracial, democratic and nonsexist post-Apartheid system, we should not lose sight of the fact that some of the challenges that we see in our schools are a direct result, hon Zwane, of weak political leadership and poor management of the processes aimed at improving our public school system. [Interjections.]

I have listened, hon Deputy Chair, let me speak hear, and nobody has said that nothing is being done – nobody said that! You said it. The reality is that what is being done is ineffective too little too


late and with very little impact - and certainly, not with the output envisaged by the massive budgets.

The Department of Basic Education’s new format of reporting known as “An Inclusive Basket of Criteria” shows the performance of each provincial education department. This is a useful tool to identify strengths and weaknesses in our education system.

This is a weighted measure considering pass rate, maths and science passes, bachelor passes, distinctions, math participation rate and the secondary school throughput rate or dropout.

Now, hon Chair, hon Mitchell has said and this department of education tool also confirms that the Western Cape remains the top- achieving province in the country according to the department.

It is notable that the Free State has the lowest throughput rate – raising further questions about the alleged practice of gatekeeping in the province where learners are being held back to inflate the pass rate. [Interjections.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NACOP: Hon Hattingh, can you take a sit. Hon Zwane on what point are you rising?

Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you, Chair. I don’t know if hon Hattingh can take a question?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NACOP: Hon Hattingh, are you prepared to take a question?

Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, we sit everyday she can ask me there, I will not take it here, hon Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NACOP: Are you prepared to take a question that is the question?

Mr C HATTINGH: I will take it in the committee not here, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NACOP: Are you prepared to take a question?

Mr C HATTINGH: No! Not here, in the committee!


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NACOP: You see, I am going to ask you again. Are you prepared to take a question? Yes or No!

Mr C HATTINGH: I will repeat again, no, not here. No. I won’t take a question!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NACOP: Thank you very much; he is not prepared to take a question.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, the Minister has all the tools she is being hamstrung by Sadtu but she has the tool to take cognisant of the catastrophic dropout rate. We cannot claim to have a system on the rise if only 37% of 2015’s grade 10s passed matric last year.

Let us get to the infrastructure that was mentioned. The large number of learners whose dignity is compromised daily by using pit toilets reflects broader infrastructure challenges experienced by teachers, learners and parents in our public school system. It is prevalent everywhere in our rural schools.

Now the Department of Basic Education P stated the current figures as follow: there are 3 898 schools with pit toilets only in the


Eastern Cape. This represent 41% with 1 998 schools. I would like to ask the Chairperson of the Eastern Cape Finance Committee; what happened to the R450 million of a city funds and infrastructure funds when you have 41% of the country’s pit toilets. [Interjections] He ran away.

And what is more, in addition, another 3 040 schools had proper sanitation provided but the ANC doesn’t know how to fill those pit toilets of 3 040 schools. It is open for children to fall in. If a government cannot fill a pit toilet; how can they provide education promised here by hon Motara? I would like to see that.

What compounds these infrastructure challenges is the lack of capacity to provide resources such as textbooks for math and science teachers and laboratory equipment – these are required for the future that was portrait by hon Motara in a very good speech. And this is pick of the ANC promises, budgets, etc, but never arrive at the point to say how will it be achieved because there is simply, no ANC plan to really deliver. All talk and very little, go to KwaZulu- Natal, you will see.


It becomes essential for our current school system to empower learners as individuals with, one may argue, advanced change management skills. Coupled with the capacity to manage change, our school system must equip learners with universal values of respect for the other as embodied in our South African Ubuntu way of life.

It is these values that will enable our learners to manage complex interpersonal multicultural global relationships which have come to characterize the current knowledge driven global economy.

It is precisely for these reasons that, as the DA, we seek to achieve the following in our education systems:

That our children emerge from school having mastered the fundamentals of literacy which is acutely lacking as well as numeracy at internationally benchmarked levels, with their education having emphasised information literacy to prepare them for the participation in the global economy.

And the South African learners are nurtured to become well-rounded citizens who have the discipline, work ethics and courage to use their skills and talent to pursue their dreams in a free world.


Hon Deputy Chair, this can only be achieved in an education system as envisaged and embodied by the policies and vision not of the ANC but of the DA. Thank you.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Deputy Chairperson, hon members and special delegates, the better part of the debate was very good because the majority of the speakers raised issues that are at the cardinal point of what we seek to do as a society without being emotional.

Hon Londt started very good by saying that historical facts, systematic challenges and injustices of the past are still impeding on the progress that we want to record and that is a reality. If you look at affluent areas, you find better infrastructure in terms of schools and opportunities foundation phase kids are exposed to as opposed to those that are in the peripheral areas in the local areas and villages. Those are imbalances that we need to fix for us to be able to arrive where we want to be.

He also raised the issue of quality learning as a building up to tertiary level. That is a good point – to start when they are fresh and make sure that the curriculum fits what the children want to do,


what the nation wants to achieve so that we at least have a better foundation for our kids.

But I disagree with hon Londt that the South African Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, is impeding on progress that we want to record. The problem with liberal politics is that you don’t know that workers rights are human rights. You do not know that and you do not even want to appreciate it. Members of Sadtu are not machines; they do not stay in classrooms when children are released to go home. Issues that affect them in the townships and communities affect them even at school.

Members of Sadtu must be encouraged to remain united under their organisation and make sure that education is been championed in the direction that we desire. We therefore cannot attack workers rights which are human rights.

We understand that the DA members’ concentration in on affluent areas. The issue of skills migration is a reality. You can get a teacher today who is well equipped and knowledgeable on the subject matter but will then migrate six months down the line because they


also want to go to urban areas where better conditions exists for them.

Those are the issues that are impeding on the progress that we want to record. Hon Magwebu spoke about artificial intelligence. I can tell you that the reality is that artificial intelligence is going to lead to labour displacement. What do you do? Do you still say that the kids must be taught in whatever when kids must be taught to be ready for the industrial revolution? They must be taught to do that. When you do that you do not do that in isolation of realities. The reality is there. You do not become mechanical about realities. The reality is that, as we go towards the fourth industrial revolution, our own curriculum must be able to speak to that and how much of time do we need for us to be able to be on the transition period. I think this is one thing we need to do.

But also what you do not speak about, hon Magwebu ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nthebe, can you take your seat? On what point are you rising, hon member?


Mr L V MAGWEBU: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to find out if the hon Nthebe will take a question from me.


Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Nthebe, you have indicated that the fourth industrial revolution, robotics and artificial intelligence is here to stay and that we need to prepare our children and I agree with you on that but here is my question: How do we prepare them because we need to do it now and we need resources? The Minister said that there is not enough money, the economy is not performing and therefore we need to cut the budget across all departments. How do you explain that statement when the VIP protection budget is
R2,6 billion? I will break it down for you what you could do with that money. Take out your calculator. You could build 500 state of the art schools at R5 million each. How do you respond to that?


Mr B G NTHEBE: Typical of DA members. You request to ask a question but give a keynote address. [Interjections.] This thing is very easy: You work within your means. We sit here and you are part of


the process that appropriates funds for critical ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Magwebu. [Interjections.]

Mr B G NTHEBE: Maybe he does not want my answer, Deputy Chair. Let me proceed. You sit here and speak about VIP protection but your executive members here in the Western Cape are staying in state houses. [Interjections.] Your premier is staying in a state house. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Magwebu, you are not even interrupting the member but debating with the member. Please stop that.

Mr B G NTHEBE: What you don’t tell us, hon Magwebu, is that the provincial government that you are praising here is going to pass a Bill that is going to promote selling of alcohol in schools. [Interjections.] You don’t tell us. You were telling us about experience. Where can you buy experience?


Hon Mitchell, you spoke very well about issues impacting on us but don’t claim easy victories and mass difficulties. You come here and you want to claim that when there is progress in terms of the percentage pass in school then it is the DA government but when there is absence of infrastructure then it is the national government. How does that happen? I think we must stop being hypocritical about issues and be realistic. [Applause.]

Hon Hattingh spoke about issues of infrastructure. They are very critical. Infrastructure must be up to scratch for our kids to be able to go to school. I can tell you now, hon Hattingh, issues of infrastructure take time. If you listen to our own government through various pronouncements, there is a bigger urge to ensure that we go towards infrastructure that is adequate and responds to the challenges.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nthebe, can you take a seat? On what point are you rising, hon Huttingh?

Mr C HATTINGH: I would like to know if hon ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you please speak up, hon Hattingh?


Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I would like to know whether hon Nthebe would take a short question from me.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nthebe, are you prepared to take a question?

Mr B G NTHEBE: Yes, Deputy Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is prepared to take a question.

Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, my colleague is a leader from the North West and very knowledgeable. I would like to know. I said that there are 3 040 schools with open pit toilets where they have new latrine systems. How long will it take to just fill the holes of the pits of the toilets of one schools?

Mr B G NTHEBE: In North West, the number is 154. So, your number is incorrect but I can tell you now that you don’t just rock up in the morning and fix a toilet. There are processes to be followed for a pit toilet to be corrected. [Interjections.] So, I cannot stand here and tell you that this thing is going to be fixed. Hon Deputy Chair, thank you for the opportunity.


Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I see the hon Nthebe has just run out, so I hope you will be a bit lenient with your time until he comes back so I can respond to him as well. Otherwise, I am sure the rest of the ANC members will stay awake and convey the message to your colleague. [Interjections.] The first thing is that I actually wanted to agree with hon Nthebe is that I am really happy in how most of this debate today progressed. It shows that we are all on the same page with the need to address education and equipping learners to compete in a job market, starting up their careers.


Londt, can you take your seat. Hon Nyambi, what point are you rising on?

Mr A J NYAMBI: Deputy Chair, I am checking whether the hon Londt can lead us like hon Nthebe and take a simple question from me?


prepared hon Londt?

Mr J J LONDT: Yes!



said, “Yes”.

Mr A J NYAMBI: My simple question is that: Out of this issue of pit latrine toilets, do you understand the impact of the historical injustice which apartheid has done to us the black people?

Mr J J LONDT: Hon member, I do not think there is a single public representative in this country that do not understand and is deeply ashamed of what happened during apartheid, and also fully committed to addressing the injustices of the past. This includes addressing infrastructure, like you just said. What my concern is, and what some of my colleagues raised is: Why is it that more that two decades into the new South Africa do we still have schools with those toilets, majority of whom black learners still have to use?
Why is that the case?

Why has this not been the number-one priority of every single Education Department – every single Department of Public Works? Hon member, you are not listening; you are talking to others. I am speaking to you because this is a problem in your very own province, and it is still not addressed in your own province. [Interjections.]


[Laughter.] So, what I am asking is: Don’t take cheap shots on things that are deeply problematic in the country. Make sure that you address them.

Also, about the questions that hon Nzimande and hon Zwane wanted to ask, you are free to ask as well. Hon Masuku – I am sorry - Deputy Minister Masuku, the very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over-and-over again and expecting a different result. Nobody is saying that progress has not been made. Nobody is saying it has not been made, but what we are saying is that progress is not quick enough. We cannot continue living ... [Interjections.]


Londt, can you take your seat. Hon Zwane, on what point are you rising?

Ms L L ZWANE: I am rising to find out if hon Londt can take a question? He has invited me to ask a question; I am doing so.


prepared, hon Londt? Yes, he says he is prepared.


Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Londt, why is it that you don’t acknowledge the fact that the Minister of Basic Education has been in this House several times, with the Deputy Minister, explaining that Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, has been used to address infrastructural issues, including the issue of pit latrines. She further explained that they have been able to build one school per week in the Eastern Cape, addressing these issues of pit latrines and infrastructure.

Mr J J LONDT: Through you hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Zwane, I will continue with my address to the Deputy Minister and it will cover your question as well. So, I will just point you out. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over-and-over again and expecting a different result. We have made progress.

We have eradicated pit latrine toilets in many schools. We have eradicated or improved the quality of education in many areas, but it is not where it should be. All the schools are not yet addressed in terms of the toilets and the infrastructure. Millions of rands are taken away from the Education budget. You can say it is because of the economy, but it is not just because of the economy.


Why is the economy the way it is? It is because the government, of which you were a Cabinet Minister over the past nine years, allowed looting of our money in this country to take place: Money that should have gone to the learners; money that should have addressed those problems of infrastructure; money that should have employed more teachers; and money that should have lifted the standard of education in South Africa to a level that we can be proud of – to a level where our learners can compete.

So, I am saying: Yes, good things have happened but it is not where it should be, and we cannot be proud of where we are at the moment because we are losing millions of learners as they fall out of the system. Hon Nthebe is still not here and I am going to now address this. He is quite happy to say, “Do not claim easy victories”. He touches the issue of selling alcohol at schools.

I mean, hon Nthebe, there are people that actually get married at schools because they cannot afford all these fancy function. You are not going to sell alcohol to under-aged children. I mean, that is ridiculous! If you actually think that, then you don’t even read policy. So, I will make sure that hon Nthebe can actually read it before he comes to make ridiculous remarks like that again.


Hon Nthebe also is the absolute Sadtu defender. [Interjections.] You know what’s the problem? It is not teachers that do a good job. It is not teachers that put in the extra hours. It is not teachers that put in that extra effort to make sure that the learners succeed. The problem is teachers that do not do what they are supposed to do – that do not do the work that they get paid to do. [Interjections.]

It is those teachers that need to be measured, evaluated and improved - and if they do not improve, get them out of the system because they negatively impact the future of our learners in this country. By defending Sadtu which does not want to get rid of those teachers, you are affecting the future of our country, and there is no defence in that.

I wish every single public representative in this House showed the passion that hon Magwebu is showing because people laugh. I mean South Africans should actually say: Listen, why do all our public representatives show this passion and this anger ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hold on, hon Londt. Hon Hattingh, you know what you are doing is wrong isn’t? Please stop doing that! You can continue, hon Londt.

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Zwane gave a very interesting quote: Rapid technological change. Those members who were part of my select committee went to Limpopo recently. We had a good example of rapid technological change. Hon Mathevula actually stood up and said the only place where there is Wi-Fi in the municipality is in the mayor’s car. So, if you want Wi-Fi, you need to drive after the mayor. That is not the rapid technological change that people want! [Laughter.]

You can laugh at what hon Mitchell is saying but you can now go to any area in the Western Cape and there is Wi-Fi accessibility. It is not just about Earth-learn, it is about using the money that you have got – using is wisely. Billions have been stolen under the leadership of the now-thank-goodness former President Jacob Zuma.
Unfortunately however, many of his praise singers are still in this House.


Do you know that Hansard is recording every speech that you are making? Every single one of you are going to be judged by history because you defended the Zuma administration and allowed billions of money to be stolen – billions that should have gone to ensuring that very single part of this country should get better services. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, it is not only you, I am also struggling to hear the member. Then the next thing somebody will be standing up requesting or expecting me to make a ruling on the statement that the member might have made. I would not be able to do that. Don’t drown that member; rather hackle. There is a difference between hackling, drowning and interrupting a member while he or she speaks. There is a difference! There is no point of shouting, jumping and becoming emotional! Can you continue, hon member?

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Minister Masuku, hon Motara, you did touch a very valid point, the face of lack of literature - using your own words - and the face of unemployment, due the historical challenges and the historical system that we have got still in this country is black. When we raise this issue, it is because we need to make sure


that those injustices and challenges we are resolving need to be overcome a lot quicker.

The frustration that we have got, which every single member in this House has, is that the process is not happening quick enough. I know you were an MEC in Mpumalanga previously, so children that were born during your tenure of being MEC have now gone past Grade 4 and still cannot read. My question is: What did you do in your own province to ensure that the literacy levels of Grade 4s, 5s and 6s are at the level that we expect it to be.

You are a Maths teacher and that should be one of the things that you drove in your Cabinet back then. But, why is it that to this day Mpumalanga is one of the three worst provinces when it comes to literacy levels? It is very easy to just say it is a black thing or a white thing, whatever. We need to acknowledge that the face is black: Yes, we need; we must! It is essential to address it. So, we need to keep doing that, working towards that every single day.

Deputy Chairperson, I want to finish off the way we started thanking everybody ... [Interjections.]



Zwane, can I recognise you? On what point are you rising ma’m?

Ms L L ZWANE: To find out if hon Londt can still take yet another question?


is prepared to take a question.

Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Londt, I understand what you are saying but there is unfairness in what you are saying because you are aware that the Minister of Basic Education again has started a big campaign on assisting learners to read. It has been reported in this House by the department. What is it that you want the department to do because we are addressing the issues that you are raising progressively?

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Zwane, as I have said – I think two or three times in my closing remarks – I am not saying that nothing is being done. I have never said that. Nobody said that today. What I am saying - and that is the concern - is that not enough is being done. We are not a country that can continue saying there is no money. Money is


tight; the budget is tight. We are struggling with the economy, but there is enough money to look after our children and to look after our future if the governing party makes sure that the little money available gets spent where it is needed. [Interjections.] Get spent wisely!

That is the frustration that we have. It is not just me; it is the frustration that millions of South Africans have, that we are not looking after money. Actions speak louder than words! Actions are currently not matching the words of this government. [Interjections.]

As I was about to conclude – we can finish this after since the time is running out – I do want to thank everybody for participating in this debate and for everybody acknowledging the problem that we are facing. Another important thing, colleagues, is that we are representing nine provinces here. We are also representing the national Parliament. We are the law makers that can make the change.

When Minister come to our select committees, it is our responsibility to push Ministers to do that extra bit to get outside of the comfort zone. Do not have business as usual because if we


keep continuing to do that, we are failing the future generation. Deputy Chairperson, thank you for chairing the meeting and enjoy the weekend. [Applause.]

Mr A J NYAMBI: Deputy Chair, I would humbly request that in future, after going through Hansard, you make a proper ruling. It was a very important debate, I wanted to disturb hon Londt, but when he was responding to the question by hon Mangethe, after making serious allegations about the very same province that I represent – Mpumalanga – it is a total contradiction. Is it allowed in terms of our rules to make a statement in the House which you know it is false?

According to his statement, it is doom and gloom in Mpumalanga; yet where I come from I know that we have students that are in Cuba to become doctors out of a programme facilitated by government.
However, when he posed his questions, he made assertions that all is bad. So, I need you to go through Hansard because that statement was false, hence hon Mangethe raised a point of order. However, I respected him not to disturb him.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think what the hon Nyambi is saying is that he expects me to rule on this matter. Isn’t it so? Hon Chetty, you expect me to rule, isn’t it? No, no, no! He raised an issue, in the House. He brought something to my attention. Just yesterday I made a ruling on misleading the House.

I made it clear that if a member intentionally knowingly misleads the House by presenting fact, knowing very well that those facts are wrong, they will have to be balance or checked. So, hon Nyambi is quite specific. He made a request that we should check the facts, balance that and put the correct [Inaudible.] for the situations in the House.

I take the opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister Masuku for having availed himself to be a part of this debate.

Debate Concluded.

The Council adjourned at 16:54.



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