Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 22 Aug 2018


No summary available.


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The House met at 15:01

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of members of the Japan AU Parliamentary Friendship Association delegation led by their chairperson, the hon Ichiro Aisawa MP. [Applause.] Hon members, you are very welcome to South Africa and the Parliament.

Hon members, the only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the President of the Republic. Members may press the ‘talk’ button on their desks if they wish to ask a


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supplementary question. I wish to remind hon members that the names of members requesting supplementary questions will be cleared as soon as the hon President starts answering the fourth supplementary question.

Question 13:

The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, allow me to begin by extending warmest wishes to the Muslim community who are celebrating Eid-ul-Adha today. More than 2 500 Muslims from our country have travelled to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to join an estimated two million Muslims from around the world for the Hajj pilgrimage.

We wish these pilgrims well in their prayers and sacrifices, and wish them a safe return home. To the question asked by the hon Mafu, the urban spatial patterns that we inherited from apartheid and which persist to this day contribute to the reproduction of poverty and inequality; and many of us agree that they must be fundamentally changed. This is because it is unacceptable that the working class and poor in our country, who are overwhelmingly black, are located far from work opportunities and amenities.

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Among other things, this places enormous pressure on family their lives. Working parents leave home early every morning and return late after their children have gone to sleep. These long commuting times impact disproportionately on the household income of the poor. According to Statistics SA, more than two-thirds of households in the lowest income quintile spend more than 20% and in some cases up to 30% of their monthly household income per capita on public transport.

However, the progressive transformation of our urban spaces is not just about radically addressing social poverty and racial inequalities. We must make our cities generators of wealth and reservoirs of productivity. The only way we can do so is by making sure that our people live much closer to where they work and also do not spend too much money on transport.

We need to eradicate the economic inefficiencies of transporting a workforce from dormitory townships into centres. The radical transformation of our urban spaces is therefore, both a social and economic imperative. Through instruments like the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act and the Integrated Urban Development Framework, we are


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approaching spatial planning guided by principles of social equity and economic efficiency.

We are focused on developing integrated human settlements which are located close to work and amenities, rather than just meeting what you would call housing targets. At the same time, through a significant investment in township economy, we are working to bring economic activity to where most of our people live.

To accelerate spatial transformation, Cabinet resolved at its recent lekgotla on the rapid release of well-located, but underutilised land to develop affordable, mixed-income housing settlements. Much of this land is owned publicly but it is also owned by various departments, provincial governments and municipalities, as well as state-owned enterprises.

Some of this land is privately held for purely speculative purposes. We need to use every inch of our country to enable people to live and those who want to farm, to be able to farm. We have a responsibility which is imposed on us by our


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Constitution to ensure that all South Africans have security of tenure.

While extending title deeds to a greater number of households is a priority, we should also secure less expensive and less complicated forms of tenure for households in informal settlements, rental arrangements and areas of communal land tenure. We need to develop a continuum of use and ownership tenure rights. It is in this regard that we are going to be able to use various mechanisms and measures to ensure that our people do indeed get land where they can build their houses and farm, so that we can achieve social and economic spatial transformation in towns and cities.

To build the cities and towns that we want, it is critical that government, the private sector as well as the NGO sector work together to create a sustainable growth model of compact, connected and co-ordinated urban areas by integrating and aligning investments. This should form part of the broader social compact which we envisaged in the National Development Plan, NDP and which, in many different ways, we want to see working.


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Elements of this approach are already found in the funding and fiscal framework of the Department of Human Settlements.
Through all these measures including building compacts, we believe that we shall be able to transform our urban spaces and ensure that the spatial architecture that we inherited from apartheid is completely transformed.

In doing all this, we will be able to strengthen property rights for all South Africans. We can ensure that the poor and working class live in decent communities that are located near economic opportunities and that parents can return home from long working days to be with their children, and are able to see their children before they go to sleep. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Ms N N MAFU: Agb President, Eid Mubarak.

The PRESIDENT: Eid Mubarak.



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Ms N N MAFU: Die besluit van Stad Kaapstad om nege gesinne van Bromwellstraat in Woodstock te ontwortel en te verskyf na tydelike verblyf in vervalle gebiede by Wolwerivier en Blikkiesdorp is ’n manier om die uitsluitbestel van voor-1994- apartheid ruimtelike beplanning in stand te hou.

Die ANC loof en verwelkom die Wes-Kaapse Hooggeregshof se uitspraak oor hierdie aangeleentheid, wat inderdaad die waardigheid van Bromwellstraat se inwoners ter ere stel.


Yeyiphi inkqubo enokulandelwa okanye yintoni enokwenziwa ukunciphisa ngakumbi okanye ukuthintela ukuziphatha okuphikasana noMgaqo-siseko okanye ukuziphatha okuphikisana nenguqu nokumilisela iyantlukwano phakathi kweentlanga neyantlukwano engokwamazinga okuhlala ngeli xesha kuvalelwa ngaphandle amahlwempu, njengokuba sisendleleni yokuchitha- chita nokuguqula indlela yokuhlaliswa kwabantu ngokwahlukahlukeneyo yamandulo.

Akunakubakuhle na ukuba uRhulumente akhe abenelizwi kumba wokuthengiswa komhlaba wasezifama, ukuthintela amaxabiso

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abaxiweyo anokubangela ukubaxeka kwamaxabiso okuthengiswa komhlaba eMzantsi Afrika?


Comrade President, thank you very much for your response. This confirms the ANC’s belief that all shall have the rights to live where they choose and therefore, thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


USOMLOMO: Ixesha lakho likuphelele sisi.


MUPHURESIDENNDE: Mulangadzulo, ndi livhuwa mbudziso heino yo vhudziswaho hafha, ya uri mafhungo a u dzulisana zwavhuḓi vhukati ha vhathu vhoṱhe ri nga a fhelisa hani nga nḓila yo teaho. Sa muvhuso ri ri zwo tea uri tshifhinga tshoṱhe ri wane dzinḓila dzine dza vha dzavhuḓi dza u ita uri vhathu vha dzulisane nga nḓila yo teaho, hu si na u khethululana.


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When we deal with issues of spatial land development, we need to take into account the values and principles that are enshrined in our Constitution. Those values speak to how we embrace diversity; and how we seek to make sure that indeed all of us embrace one another and are able to lead a prosperous and happy life. To do so, we have to take measures to move away from the divisions that were created by our apartheid past.

As we do that, the government also has to take measures which should include how land should be distributed; and how our people should be given proper rights to occupy and own land in the urban and rural areas. It is precisely this that we want to focus on to ensure that our land reform programme does, in the end, impact positively on the lives of our people; and does improve their livelihood so that our people are able to get land where they can build their homes and live in peace with their families. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, the commander in chief appears on the list here. Can he be the one who takes the question?


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Mr J S MALEMA: President ...


Selo seo se hlagilego pelenyana mo, ba be ba goga ngwana wa sekolo mola ka ge a be a kgopela thuto ya mahala. Ba be mo goga ka dikgoka, ka go lwa. Se ke selo seo re swanetšego go se kgalemela ka lebaka la gore ntwa ye e lego mo Afrika-Borwa kgahlanong le bana le basadi, e tšwetšwa pele le ke dilo tša mohuta wo, moo e lego gore ge re fapana, re ipotša gore re swanetše re lwe ka matsogo.


The first thing they did was not to talk to that young person



... ba no fihla ba lwa le yena. Gape re ruta setšhaba gore ge motho fapana le motho yo mongwe, o swanetše a šomiše dikgoka; gomme ga se yona taba yeo.



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President, during the public hearings, our people came out in their numbers to support land expropriation without compensation. Many of them have said that they want the land to build clinics, houses, shops and use the land to benefit themselves and the nations outside of South Africa. That’s a point that you also agree with particularly land expropriation without compensation.

Our people are now subjected to concentration camps which we call townships and mislead ourselves that those things are residential areas. When those things were planned, they were not planned as residential areas but as concentration camps. Did you come up with a plan and instruct the Minister of Human Settlements to expropriate land closer to towns and suburbs where we can settle our people properly and take them out of that type of an arrangement of concentration camps? We cannot continue to subject our people to a situation that is inhumane and where others even say we must give them title deeds to be permanently stuck in that arrangement. Are we going to expropriate land closer to the suburbs, defeat racism and create mixed residential areas? Thank you, Speaker. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


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The PRESIDENT: Thank you ...


... morena Malema.


Coming to the question that you have posed, clearly as we have said, our people are in need of land where they can build their homes, farm and also build facilities for various amenities. A number of these places are strewn right across the length and breadth of our country, and some of them are in urban areas. Indeed, as I said earlier, the Lekgotla of our government decided that we should embark on a rapid release of land.

Firstly, as we are examining this whole process, we want to start off with land that is owned by our various entities. Local government owns large chunks of land in the urban areas and we want that land to be released so that it is given to our people. It must be released at serviced stands. Our people must be given that land. Releasing that land, hon Malema, means that, that land, as it is owned by our local entities,


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does not even need to be bought. If you like, yes, it is a form of expropriation that will end up in the hands of our people. Because it is in the public interest, we are advancing the interest of our people.

Secondly, quite a bit of the land in some areas is owned by state-owned enterprises and some is owned by various government departments. We are saying that those pieces of land must be identified, released, serviced and given to our people so that they can build their houses. Many of our people want to build their own houses in the urban areas so that we move away from the apartheid spatial planning process that relegated poor and black people to far away places from the places of work.

Our new development is that we should move our people closest to the economic centres of our economy. In this regard, we believe that the measures we should take including expropriation of land and release of land, should enable us give effect to this policy that we are talking about. On that score, we agree with you completely. We want rapid release of publicly-owned land.


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There is also land that is owned by individuals, as I said in my main answer. Some of it is held for speculative reasons while some is just lying fallow. We are saying that our entities and local government must examine all that so that we can package pieces of land like that and be able, on an informed basis, to determine how we should deal with land like that. All that will be done in an orderly fashion in accordance with our Constitution and the convention that we should establish in dealing with land.

I believe that we can now embark on a very positive process of ensuring that we make true the promise that we made, that we want our people to have a better life. Doing so means that we should give them places where they can live. They should live and work closer to the economic centres of our country. So, if you like, we agree with you. That’s precisely what we are going to do. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Mr President, you speak about creating a better life for our people. You speak about human settlement and housing. You talk about land expropriation and also without compensation. However, Mr President, while we are


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talking about creating a better life, take the community of Eastridge sitting there in the gallery. For 21 years they have been humiliated, intimidated, harassed, threatened with eviction but not a single political party particularly the opposition that are members in this House, want to assist that community because they are too busy fighting the ANC for power and control.

Now, Mr President, is it within your mandate as national government, to protect these people from Eastridge in Mitchells Plain and particularly the others who were thrown out and evicted by the DA? Or is it not within the mandate of national government to protect the interest of the people in the provinces particularly where you do not govern? On the one hand you want to create a better life while on the other hand evictions are taking place everyday in the Western Cape. The land that you are talking about in urban areas is being sold. Shouldn’t there be a moratorium in the interest of these people particularly this Eastridge community? I would like you to tell me how you are going to intervene and save them from the harassment they are facing at the hands of the DA in the Western Cape. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]


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The PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Emam. Our task as the government is to protect our people. Our task is to advance their interest and anything that militates against that is something that we should act against. In this regard, we would say that we want our people to have a better life and be accommodated in a decent manner. In fact, we would say that all of us must refrain from acts that will result in the movement and eviction of people. If there are areas where people are being evicted, we say that it must stop with immediate effect. [Applause.]

We cannot go back to the methods of the apartheid regime where our people were moved left, right and centre. If any entity, be it local government or provincial, has a need to take any step or move in relation to land, they must first take into account the interest of our people because we must, at all times, put the interest of our people first. The lives and interests of our people count much more than the amount of money that can be made in selling pieces of land. My view is that those moves to sell land over the heads of people must stop. [Applause.] We must be able to have discussions with our


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people to find ways in which all these things can be dealt with.

I am totally opposed to the eviction and mass movement of people from areas, particularly places where they have lived in forever any day. I say this with conviction because my own family was moved from Western Native township in 1962 where mass removals just happened, trucks moved in and moved the whole township to Soweto. It was moved so that a part of Triomf which was Sophiatown could be created. So, those wounds remain deep in our memory and to see that happening today, is totally against what we should stand for as a nation.
Therefore, we are against it. [Applause.]

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon President, for many years now there has been talk of transforming our urban places in order to make our city more efficient and equitable, and to assist those in such places who have previously been marginalised and still live in poverty. My question relates to existing hostel dwellers currently residing in our urban places. What is being done to assist them, and what plans are in place to bring


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radical economic transformation to those residing in our hostels? Thank you, Speaker.

The PRESIDENT: Part of our human settlement policy is to eradicate those old hostels that many of us grew up knowing, where people were accommodated as though they were in prison camps. If we have to have people living in single accommodation, it should be decent buildings that are built for people who should feel that they are indeed being cared for by their government. Therefore, in doing all that, we encourage local government municipal entities to look at the places where hostels are.

I know for a fact, for instance, that in the Soweto area a lot is being done to transform some of those hostels into more decent living accommodation. Therefore, it is part of the programme that we are looking at and we need to continue looking at. Our human settlement policy is directly also focusing on improving areas where our people live.

Hostels that were built in the past were quite horrible places. The sad part is that some of them still exist and our


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people still live in them. We therefore want to start moving people out of them and create better and decent accommodation for our people to live in. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Question 14:

The PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon members, creating employment, particularly for young people and women is the most urgent and critical priority for our country at this moment of the history of our country. The most recent unemployment figures are a clear signal that we cannot continue at the current pace of economic growth.

I must say that our unemployment figures, which I looked at very recently, are quite on the high side and they are worrying. A number of countries around the world are also experiencing precisely the same type of problem that we are experiencing. [Interjections.]

We must treat unemployment as a burning platform – a challenge that requires extraordinary measures and exceptional efforts that we need make to address this. To succeed, it is essential


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that we understand the causes of the massive unemployment rates in our country.

The historical reliance on raw commodity exports and the deliberate underdevelopment and economic marginalisation of the majority of our people resulted in structural unemployment that has been a prominent feature of our economy since the 1980s.

Following the dawn of democracy, we were able to create jobs on a scale never seen before in the history of South Africa. [Applause.]

In 1994 – so that it is clearly known - we had 8,8 million people working in our country. Today, we have 16,3 million people who are employed. [Applause.] In other words, in 25 years we have doubled the number of working people in our economy. [Interjections.]

Despite an absolute increase in the number of people employed, South Africa’s unemployment rate has remained stubbornly high, as the population has grown and more and more people have


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entered the workforce. Put simply, we have not been creating enough jobs to meet the growing need for the people who enter the labour market on an annual basis seeking work.

That is why this government is working together with its social partners to address both the immediate economic challenges and, through far-reaching reforms, place the economy on a new path of inclusive growth and job creation.

We have prioritised the task of significantly raising levels of investment in the economy, since it is essential for growth and job creation. One of the ways in which we can increase job creation is through investment. We need to bring investment

into our country – we need to get our local companies to invest in the economy and by so doing increase the number of people who are employed.

There has been an enthusiastic response to the call that we have made by both South African businesses and international investors to our plans to hold an Investment Summit, which will be held on 25th to 27th October.


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We have also been approached by business leaders across the economy insisting that they want to play and they are playing their part working together with government to grow the economy and create jobs. They too see that the platform is burning, and instead of throwing up their hands in despair, they are determined to be part of the solution, rather than standing on the side lines and make a lot of noise like the noise I am hearing from this, they are saying we want to be part of the solution. [Applause.] We want to participate and help everyone in our country to create jobs.

In the coming days, Cabinet will announce the details of a stimulus package to reignite growth and to establish the foundation for a sustained economic recovery plan. This package reprioritises funds towards initiatives that are labour intensive, addresses infrastructural needs and boosts local economies.

This is the job of governments; governments in their management of economy have to take certain initiatives and certain steps. But the government is not alone in all this. The government is not a sole player in the economy of the


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country. The government is a manager and an actor, the other partners in the economic space must also play their part.

We also expect political parties to also play their part and bring forward proposals that have efficacy and can lead to real job creation. Government will vigorously implement confidence-building measures to unlock private sector resources so that the private sector can have the ability to invest. We are addressing the chief constraints to greater investment and growth.

Government is making progress on addressing key policy and regulatory issues that have been raised with us by business community. Some of them said we want to come and invest in South Africa. One of the things that hold us back is your visa requirements and we said; okay we are going to address our visa requirement so that the skilled individuals should come forward and they should come on the back of the investment that various companies want to make. We are going to finalise of the Mining Charter and we are also going to the publishing the Integrated Resource Plan in a matter of a short time.


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We will also soon be making announcements on the allocation of broadband spectrum, because that too have been raised as a constraint to investment flowing into our country; the Electronic Communications Amendment Bill and the single transport economic regulator are also going to be matters that we resolve.

We do this because the private sectors that we have been interacting with have raised this as some of the constraints. We are going to address these issues so that we can unlock the levers that hold our economy back.

We are improving governance across the public sector and have moved with speed to tackle one of the constraints that have been holding our economy back, which is corruption. We are also taking measures to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of government at all levels.

With many companies contemplating retrenchments, we need to work together as social partners – in much the same way as we did in 2008 when the whole world went through a financial


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crisis – to mitigate the effects of the current economic climate on jobs.

We would say to those companies that may have plans to retrench workers, hold back; and if you have to, let us find alternative pathways for those workers who may have to lose their jobs. Beyond these measures, we must undertake a fundamental re-engineering of the economy.

We are working to build human capabilities through access to high quality early childhood development, which is a long-term process that we are involved in but we are going to see benefits flowing out of this. Access to higher education to produce skills needed for the future, youth employment interventions that we are making are also going to improve the employability of young people as we move forward.

We are also reducing barriers to entry, for many businesses and this have been raised by many businesses people who we have been interacting with.


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We are doing all this to ensure that there is also stronger competition regulation, revitalising of our state-owned enterprises, promoting agrarian reform, better spatial planning, improved public transport systems, development finance and industrial incentives.

We are developing the productive base of the economy, by enhancing current industrial policy measures, so, there are quite a number of things that we are giving attention to. We are promoting the growth of labour intensive sectors like agriculture, services and tourism.

As social partners, as a country, we must respond to the current economic difficulties that our country faces right now. We want to do so with a measure of working together. Yesterday I had wonderful meeting with a number of business leaders who out of their own volition came forward and said: Mr President, we want to contribute to job creation and we believe that if we get a number of big businesses including small business enterprises and we pull together, we would be able to bring to you a proposal which will lift job creation in our country.


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That is the type of patriotic voice that we want to hear in our country where business people come forward and say they want to make a contribution, rather than sit on the sidelines, and continue to make noise and not put any plan on the table. I want those who have plans to be brought to the table so that we can act and take South Africa forward. Thank you. [Applause.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, thank you, Mr President. You know, there is a famous saying that says, you can either make a noise or make a difference. [Interjections.] And, I tell you what ... [Interjections.] ... since 2009 I have listened to enough noise about summits, nine-point plans, yet still today 9,6 South Africans are unemployed. Here is my challenge to you, Mr President, here is the difference: when we talk about the difference is the fact that 75% of all new jobs created in South Africa have been created by the DA-led government. [Applause.]

In fact, in Johannesburg alone, in this last quarter we have seen an increase of about 100 000 new jobs under the DA-led government. That is the difference we are talking about. But


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let me tell you how it works. It works on a basis of building a capable state, eradicating corruption and actually ensuring that you give policy certainty, which we have done.

My question to you, Mr President is simply this; the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. Or keeping the same people and hoping for a different outcome. Here is my challenge; in your cabinet you have kept Mr Visa debacle himself, Malusi Gigaba, you have kept a confused economic cluster with the same Ministers and increased unemployment; I want to know – are you hoping to kick-start the economy and change our trajectory; are you willing to change the same cabinet Ministers who served under Zuma and brought us into this problem?

Can you bring change so that we can get a new economic trajectory? Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT: Speaker, you know, quite frankly for a moment, hon Maimane, I thought that I would hear pearl of wisdom. Just for a moment – just as you stood upright I thought Waa! Today I am going to hear something completely different from what I


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have heard in the past. [Interjections.] So, I waited with an open hand for some pearls of wisdom from you and I have not heard anything wiser that you have said. [Interjections.]

I regret to say that all you are saying you are playing the people or the man and you are not talking to the substantive issues that have to do with economic growth. [Applause.] Now we are managing the ANC – may be you didn’t listen carefully – the ANC has been governing this country from 1994. From 1994 it has doubled the number of people who are working here in South Africa. And that is what we intend to continue doing.

The people of our country continue to invest confidence in the ANC because it is the ANC that has got clear policies that is taking real initiatives to change the trajectory of our country. Where would we be today if the ANC had not changed the trajectory of the South African economy? [Interjections.]

We would not be here. Where would the 8 million people be, who today have been employed since 1994? They would be unemployed. We are committed to continue creating jobs, and what we are


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doing is to put in place durable and sustainable building blocks that are going to continue to make our economy grow.

Now, maybe next week you may well have better ideas if you wake up on the right side of the bed, bring them to me and then we will see if they are implementable. But for now, you have disappointed me and I have not heard any better idea from you. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr X NGWEZI: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon President, one of the main causes of unemployment in this country is the fact that most job opportunities require work experience and our graduates and South Africans do not have that. Now, in the IFP’s match that was on 1 May, one of its demands was that remove work experience as a pre-requisite for jobs. Can we see you, Mr President because you said we must provide you with solutions – can we see you driving this vehicle of removing work experience issue in order to address unemployment?

The second one - as you said we must provide solutions – the second one that I can come up with would be to remove ANC from power because they have failed for 22 years now.


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The PRESIDENT: Speaker, I can help the member with the first one, and I am afraid would not be able to help you with the second one. The ANC is here to stay; I think you better get used to it. In relation to the first point I am glad to hear that the IFP youth league is articulating precisely the same point. I can say that you will not only see me lead this process but you will hear me lead it.

I have spoken about it, young people in our country have come forward and said this issue of work experience before they get jobs is actually a huge constraint for them. It is preventing them from getting to job opportunities; and they have proposed that work experience should be removed as a requirement for them to get into job situations. I happen to support that. I agree with it and I support it.

In fact if many of us think back to where we were if experience was a requirement for us to get into a job positions many of us would never have been where we got to in our own callings or work experiences. So, it is a constraint and young people are absolutely right and I support them and call on all of us to support them that we should ensure that


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young people are given the opportunity to get to work opportunities. They must be given a chance to work. If we do so you will find that young people are usually so cleaver, so innovative, so brave and so courageous that they are able to take to any job challenge with alacrity and with a great deal of commitment.

Based on that, I think companies should not hold back and not be afraid to give young people a chance. We say give them an opportunity, let them get into job situations yes, sometimes they may make mistakes, we all have made mistakes in one way or the other. There is no one who has not made a mistake either in a job situation or elsewhere. So, open the doors of employment places, let us allow young people to get in because they are the future.

Let us give them that opportunity to work because if we continue to constrain them we will find that they will be so bottled up and the frustration could lead to a whole lot of things that are undesirable. So, let us open opportunities for young people to get jobs and we can do it now. I call on


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companies to do precisely that. Open opportunities and get young people to work.

One of the reasons we embarked on the youth employment service was precisely to respond to this. The youth employment service is the way in which we can get young people into job situations. It is not so much to form constraints for young people to be able to get into jobs. In fact, we say that one million job opportunities that we have agreed to have should increase maybe even to 2 million. Young people need jobs and they need them now, we must open up those job opportunities.
Thank you

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Madam Speaker, Mr President, given the fact that large sums of monies are allocated to projects for the purpose of benefiting the people who are not employed, but these monies are never used for the people for which they are meant; what is the other turnaround strategy that can be brought about to bring an end to these corrupt activities; if these projects are to be continued?


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May be we should bring about forensic investigations into all these projects that have been allocated monies. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, we are aware that there have been situations where monies that have been allocated for various projects some of which have been meant to either create jobs or to ensure that there is service delivery to our people have never been used for the purpose for which money was allocated. And money has been siphoned out; money has been defrauded, taken and used for other purposes. Now, experience that we are going through as a government - if you like a pilot type of situation, particularly in the North West - is giving us quite a lot of information on how this manifest itself.

We are becoming more and more aware of how we can tighten up our processes to make sure that when money is allocated it is used precisely for the projects it is allocated for. We are developing processes and systems in our various interventions to ensure that money is not stolen. Now, we are shining a light of this corruption network that may well have been


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formed in a number of places and we are going to make sure that we cub wastage and corruption.

In this, we are also assisted by the auditor-general who as we heard has released his report and bemoaned the fact that processes are neglected in a number of places. Therefore, we are now very much alert, and we are extremely alert and are making all our officials to make sure that we do comply with the Public Finance Management Act, the various management systems that we have.

We also call upon the private sector because it is not only the people who are in government who are complicit in this. It is how the private sector actors try to capture the state at various levels. Quite often it is the people who are in the private sector who set up these various systems to try and defraud money from the public sector. So, we have become very much aware of all those and we are going to make sure that we stop them. Yes, it will take time but we are going to work on an ongoing basis that we clean up government that money that has been budgeted finally goes to work for the purpose for which it was allocated. Thank you.


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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Mr President, you cannot claim the victory of the ANC on the fact that there is 8 million job more from 1994 to now. The population grew; of course, it is obvious in terms of what happens. So, the jobs happen because the population size has increased. The jobs that you can claim are the ones that you have created are not the ones that, in terms of basic economic counting it is not correct to just claim jobs just because the population grew by possible more than clause to 20 million people.

However, one thing that I want to understand is that in the period where you were glob trotting looking for the one trillion of investments, we lost 100 000 jobs; what is the philosophical underpinning of your permanent economic solutions in South Africa?

Do you somehow believe that you are going to look for money from outside to come into the continent and that will become your panacea for all our developmental challenges; because it has never happen anywhere, where you go and get foreign direct investments whatever quantity of that development finance


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institution, DFI is; you will not be able to deal with the job challenge unless there is an inward looking, proper industrialisation programme that happened in South Korea and Japan and the areas that are called South East Asia? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon Shivambu, I don’t even need to answer you because you are talking to my book. Because what we have said is that; in order for an economy to grow and in order for jobs to be created you do need investment. But we have taken care to say that we are focusing on local corporates investing in our economy. This goes without saying that if you really want to drive economic growth you must make sure that the companies your own country demonstrate confidence in their own economy and invest here.

Now, we have got a number of companies in our country that have already demonstrated that they have got clear plans of investing in our economy in the next five years. They are the companies who are going to come to our investment conference and it is all based on industrialisation of our economy;


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boosting manufacturing, making sure that we inject more life and activity in our agricultural sector.

Our energy sector has a lot to contribute in this regard and so does our biodiversity economic sector also contribute.
Tourism is a great creator of jobs. So, we have got a multiplicity of sectors in our economy that can create jobs and we want to make sure that we crowd in the private sector in our country first to invest in our country and thereafter. Of course, the bonus is when you get the foreign direct investment.

The reason the US is booming right now it is booming because local companies are investing and they are reviving a number of companies there, but they are also getting quite a lot of foreign direct investment. Now, we can look at foreign direct investment with suspicion but we are not looking only at foreign direct investment. In fact, we are looking mainly at local investments.

That is why, just as of yesterday where we received a number of business leaders in our country who came to say they want


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to invest in our country and there are quite a number of things that they got to work with the President to put right the regulatory environment, this and that. If we can get that right, the money that is currently on the balance sheets of our companies in the banks can be unlocked and create jobs.

So, what do we want to do, yes we want to industrialise. Hon Shivambu, we know how our country started de-industrialising over a number of years, now this government wants to reboot the industrialisation process in our country. We want to make sure that manufacturing functions and we want – at the same time – to promote black industrialists. We want to promote small and medium enterprises.

In other countries small and medium enterprises account for up to 80%, particularly in countries like Germany. The 80% of employment is carried by small and medium enterprises, which are precisely what we also want to focus on. So, we are at work. Our economic focus is to make sure that we reboot the various subsectors of our economy and make sure that there is investment and then jobs will then start flowing.


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Yes, I agree with that the population of our country has grown but we cannot run away from the fact that we were a much smaller economy in 1994, and our economy has grown and it has grown under the management of this governing party called the ANC. [Applause.]

I know that many people want to wish that away. Unfortunately, you cannot wish it away. It is here and it is here to stay because we are going to make sure that we continue to grow the economy of this country and get rid of all the challenges that we have. If you like, hon Shivambu, you can wish us luck because we are here to stay. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Question 15:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker and hon members, the BRICS partnership – we held a BRICS summit just a few weeks ago, offers South Africa significant opportunities to expand and diversify our trade, attract investment and to develop our economic infrastructure.

With a combined gross domestic product, GDP, of approximately

$15 trillion, BRICS countries account for around 20% of gross


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global product, over 40% of the world population and have collectively contributed more than half of world economic growth during the past 10 years.

Trade between South Africa and its BRICS partners has grown from $28 billion to $35 billion over the last decade. When combined, the BRICS countries account for 15% of South Africa’s exports and 25% of the country’s imports.

Against the backdrop of unilateral measures taken by some developed countries to protect their domestic industries, BRICS countries are forging ahead with initiatives to expand intra-BRICS trade and investment. One such initiative is the China International Import Expo, which will be in Shanghai, in November 2018, which South Africa will use to quiet good effect to expand the basket of products it exports to China.

The BRICS countries have reaffirmed their commitment to work together to shape a multilateral trading system that supports industrialisation and economic diversification. The BRICS countries constitute an important global voice in support of a rules-based, transparent and inclusive multilateral trading


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system that promotes a predictable trade environment and the centrality of the World Trade Organisation, WTO.

These countries are in agreement that development must remain integral to the WTO’s work and that developing countries should secure a share in the growth of world trade that matches their needs as well as their economic development.
They support provisions for special and differential treatment, including in agriculture.

This provides the necessary policy space for developing countries to pursue their development objectives, including industrialisation once again, hon Shivambu, promote their effective integration into the global economy.

Individual BRICS countries are important and influential globally in their own name and right but it is when these countries stand together in the alliance formed through BRICS that we are in a better position to advance a fairer global trade agenda.


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This is where South Africa is rather fortunate to be part of this network of these huge countries, China, India, Brazil and Russia, where we are, yes, the smallest but also an influential block in the BRICS makeup of networked countries. Through this, we are able to make contributions that also have an impact on what happens in the world.

In this regard, we are focusing, together with these countries on the areas of economic development that matter and count such as industrialisation, boosting manufacturing and ensuring that when we trade, we do it amongst ourselves, for starters but when we do trade with other countries, we do so from a position of strength as well.

So, we are fortunate to be part of this club. We are also a respected member of this club because this provides us the necessary policy space to be able to pursue our own developmental objectives and be able to have our voice heard. In this regard, South Africa has become a more respected country because of the company it keeps.


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The BRICS network gives us that weight of influence and that weight of being able to speak. When do speak, we are respected and we are listened to. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr A F MAHLALELA: Hon Speaker, well ...


... Ngitawutsatsa lelitfuba ngibonge kuMengameli ngaletimphendvulo lesekatiniketile.


Hon President, BRICS seeks to project stability and predictability in a rules-based, which is fundamental and in contrast to the recent US policies vis-à-vis your global rules and norms. To what extent will South Africa’s membership of BRICS, since becoming a member seven years ago, contribute towards a prosperous Africa, which is based on inclusive growth and sustainable development within the context or framework of Agenda 2063, with particular focus on the agenda for social and economic development? Are there any projects and programmes that we can proudly say, we have begun a process of benefitting and we can practically see on the


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ground both locally and in the continent as Africa, since becoming a member of BRICS? Thanks very much.

The PRSEIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: During the last BRICS summit, we were able to extend an invitation to a number of African countries, particularly countries in our own region – SADC. They were joined by countries that we usually have as part of the BRICS outreach from as far afield as the Caribbean, Northern Africa as well as West Africa.

So, we were proud that the countries in SADC were able to honour us by coming to the BRICS summit to be part of this collection of countries that participated. That went to confirm our own policy with regard to our own foreign policy that we seek to advance the interest of our continent. In fact, as we are part of BRICS, we see ourselves as being there on behalf of the various countries on our continent.

What we seek to do is to also advance the interests of those countries. What we have been able to propose and indeed adopted is where we propose that we should have a development bank, which has now been set up. Its headquarters is in


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Shanghai but has a branch here in Africa, in South Africa. It is a development bank that is now extending various loans to various countries on the continent, particularly focused on infrastructure. Our country is also privileged to have received two types of loans that are going to assist some of our companies and state-owned enterprises as well.

Recently, we were also able to get the BRICS summit to agree that we should set up a vaccine centre that will do quite a lot of research on various diseases and vaccines. This centre is going to be based in South Africa. It is going to be of service to various countries in BRICS but also going to service the African continent.

Now, that feels us with a great deal of pride that the BRICS countries have been able to agree to our proposal to set up a vaccine centre, right here. It is going to be one of the really outstanding vaccine centres in the world and going to be in South Africa. [Applause.]

There are quite a number of other benefits, for instance, we are even going to have BRICS games so that the BRICS concept


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is embraced and owned by the people in the various BRICS countries. We are going to have, for instance, variety of games that will be hosted by the various BRICS countries. Those who see games as being processes through which we can build cohesion, build our nations and get our people to interact, we will see a great deal of benefit in all these.

So, that’s what we are going to have. So, BRICS is really alive. BRICS is not just a talk shop, not just a place where we get together, talk and move on, in fact, once we have met, we have a number of Ministers and officials, who continue to work until the next BRICS summit.

This coming week, we will be going to another version of BRICS

- Forum on China-Africa Co-operation, FOCAC, where African countries get together and have a lot of deliberations amongst themselves as well as with China. We will be travelling there. That too, yields a lot of benefits for our country and indeed for our continent. So, we are proud members of BRICS. We are doing this because we see a great deal of benefits. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


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Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Speaker, hon President, you speak about the BRICS bank, I was just wondering whether your decision to appoint Minister Nene back was to rescind the announcement that he is going to the BRICS bank? Hon President, he who pays the piper calls the tune. China is going to invest the so- called R14,7 billion in South Africa and has given Eskom
R2,5 billion loan for the Kusile project, these aren’t blank cheques Mr President and what is quite evident is that Thuma mina has become thuma i-China. [Send me has become send China] [Applause.]

So, Mr President, what are we doing to insulate and protect South Africa from the global expansion of China? Whilst we may take the money, it is good that we protect ourselves; I will tell you why, Prof Lumkile Mondi of Wits says and I quote:

Our membership in BRICS may seem as though we are complacent about China’s behaviour on the continent. It has not created any number of jobs but instead, it has brought ship full of Chinese workers and build poor infrastructure.


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So, do these investments actually translate into jobs or is it China easing off its own burdens back at home and because they have the financial muscle, we have become a soft target? It could be, Mr President, that our participation in BRICS is us as South Africa punching way above our weight. So, I put it to you, Mr President, what is it that you are doing to protect South Africa’s interest from Chinese global expansion because it cannot be that we are going to be the gateway to Africa and therefore be the gateway to the exploitation of this continent as China tries to become the new world power?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Hlengwa, thank you very much. I can tell you that I am not as cynical and as sceptical as you are. [Laughter.] At the same time, we always act to promote South Africa’s interest. First and foremost, the interest of our country count most and that’s what we seek to protect.

When we meet and enter into any negotiations, it is for nothing else but to protect our national interests. When we deal with various countries and not only China, it could be any country in the world, we do so making sure that we do


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cross the t and dot the I as carefully as possible. We also did this on our own continent when we entered into the Africa Free Trade Agreement. We made sure that we look at everything very closely because that is what counts most. We don’t want to either mortgage our country or our future or sell our country or our future.

You can be sure that that’s what we seek to do. In our dealings with China, they have not displayed any imperialist tendencies or intentions. We have not seen such and if we have seen them, we have the experience of how imperialists have plundered not only our country but other countries. So, we are wide awake. We can see exactly imperialist coming from very far.

What we do, we have developed a very good and canny approach when do this. Yes, welcome people who have money. We want to use their money so that we can advance our own interests.

Recently, when President Xi Jingpin was here, he and I were virtually able to open the first Chinese motor building company in the Eastern Cape. It is now going to start rolling


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out cars. Who is employed there? It is South African workers. It’s not Chinese workers. Yes, they do have officials and key people there but it is a multibillion investment opportunity that has come our way. [Applause.]

If we were sceptics ... Should we have pushed it away and said we don’t want it? We don’t work like that. We say, if you have money and we want to attract you to South Africa but we are going to be on guard to advance our interest at all times and at all costs. Be rest assured that that’s what we do.

Next time, maybe, when we have such occasions, I will ask you to be a fly on the wall so that you can see how this side of the room operates. It operates to advance our interests.


Ngizokubiza mfowethu ukuthi uze uzohlala nathi ubone ukuthi siqhuba kanjani ngoba siyaqhuba thina. Ngiyabonga.

Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker and President, I almost said Deputy President, inclusive growth and shared prosperity implies that Africa and South Africa’s relationship with BRICS and China in


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particular, should not be a case of a winner takes it all. Now, ironically, we have a trade surplus with the United States but when it comes to China and South Africa, our trade deficit has become progressively worse, which correlates with the dissemination of our manufacturing and textile sector.

Now, in essence, all China wants is our raw minerals, our iron, our steel and precious metals - little else - and in return, we get dumped with cheap textiles. I want to remind us all of being wide awake when we warned that our cotton industry is going to be destroyed in this country because of cheap imports and that is exactly what happened.

Seventy-nine thousand downstream jobs were lost in the Makhathini flats. Hon President, the question is: What is government going to do to protect South African industries, our jobs and manufacturers in this country from cheap imports to ensure fair and equitable trade as well?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Carter, I assure you that this concept of win-win occupies our thinking most of the time if not all the time. In our discussions with China, and indeed


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with President Xi Jingpin, we looked at precisely the imbalance between our trade activities. They have a surplus over us and we have a deficit. It is a matter of concern to them as well. It is precisely the issue that we addressed.

When I recently went to Zambia, I met President Lungu, we looked at our trade figures and realised that we have a surplus and they have a deficit. It is a matter of concern to both of us. We want a win-win type of solution to our trade relations. The one country must not win all the time over and above the other.

Next week, we are going to have another head of government coming to our shores. They happen to have a deficit in relation to us and that is one of the things that they want to discuss with us. It happens to be a country in the northern hemisphere.

So, we always want to look for win-win solutions. China is very much alive to the fact that they have a surplus over and above us. They have asked what it is that we can buy from you as South Africa so that we can reduce the surplus that we have


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over and above you and we agree with them. That is precisely what we are also going to do when we go China in a few days time, to address this issue and reduce the deficit that we have in relation to them.

Our trade relations are not trade relations that we approach from a one-way type of street basis. We want to have trade relations where we reduce deficits and bring about a balance and when it gets out of balance, we try and seek a win-win type of solution. We are aware of our deficit in trade with China and we are seeking ways to reduce that deficit. Thank you very much.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, in the recent BRICS summit, your government announced the fact that Eskom had secured a loan and equally so, that same loan was extended to Transnet. I want to read to you what the New York Times describes as ‘loans from China.’ They describe it as: “a dept trap for vulnerable countries around the world. It fuels corruption and autocratic behaviour in struggling democracies.”


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Now, Mr President, my challenge is the Chinese government are not just blessers – they are not giving us money ...


... ba bangwe ke bo matšhonisa.


In truth, if we look at what happened to Sri Lanka, they had to hand over their port and 15 000 hectares of land when they could not pay. Unlike your predecessor, Mr President, ke a go tshepa [I trust you] because your predecessor never veiled all trade deals – all these loans in secrecy. Could you bring this House into your confidence and the people of South Africa as to what are the terms and conditions of this Chinese loan to South Africa? Can we be assured that our country is not being sold to ...


... bo matšhonisa? [Legofi.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon Maimane, you know, what we manage as a government, is a number of state-


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owned enterprises. Many of these state-owned enterprises have gone out to the world to seek loans. Some have gone to the African Development Bank, to the World Bank, to the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, and some to local banks, so, our state-owned enterprises go around the world and in the country as well.

The majority of these loans are locally sought in our local banks. They get these loans so that they can continue operate and continue to deliver electricity to you – in your home, hon Maimane.

If I were to give you the terms of the loans that Eskom got from the African Development Bank, the World Bank, DBSA and so forth, then it basically means that we must bring every little loan to you. We are here to manage this economy and are not doing anything in secrecy. The fact that these loans are announced, the fact that we go and say Eskom has been given a loan and we know they have a loan from the World Bank, we know they have a loan from the African Development Bank means that we are just as transparent as you can get. [Interjections.]


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There is just no duty on our part to be able to say ...


... waitse Maimane re


What we can assure you, hon Maimane, is that all our agreements that our government enters into are based on ethics, good corporate governance and are meant to advance the interest of our people. That’s all I can tell you. Take it from me, that is the reality. Thank you very much.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Speaker, just before the President’s response to the question...


... mama uhamba njani lo mcimbi wala maqhosha? Kudala sicofa apha. UMongameli usindile apha...


... because the problem is broader than just China when it comes to trade.


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Ihamba njani le nto yala maqhosha kuba kudala siwacofa? Okanye i-UDM niyayincitsha kuba sisiya kukhetho? Yhini mama.

USOMLOMO: Hayi, hayi.

Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Usindile Mongameli. Uya kuhlala usinda. Kwixesha elizayo siza kube sikulindele.

USOMLOMO: Nanga amagama apha phambi kwam.

Question 16:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker and hon members, underlying all the tax proposals that government has made since 1994, is the need to promote the growth of an inclusive economy, to redistribute resources to meet the needs of the poor and to ensure sustainable management of public finances. It was these considerations that informed government’s decision to increase the value added tax, VAT, by 1% from
01 April 2018. Based on all the available evidence, it emerged as the one revenue raising measure and source that would have


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the least negative impact on economic growth, which is essential for job creation and the reduction of poverty.

However, as we implement the VAT increase, it is essential that this does not place an undue burden on poor people in our country. Government therefore set up an independent panel of experts to review the current list of zero-rated VAT items.
The panel’s report was submitted to the Minister of Finance on

6 August 2018, and subsequently released for public comment.

The report recommends the following additional items that should be included in the basket of zero-rated goods, namely, white bread, bread flour and cake flour, sanitary products, school uniforms and nappies, including cloth and adult nappies. The panel recommended that the Treasury conducts further work on each of the proposed additional items to ensure that there is no room created for VAT fraud by producers or retailers and that the benefit of zero-rating on these items indeed goes to the consumers. It should for instance be ensured that a price of a zero-rated product is reduced from what it was with VAT included.


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The process of public consultation will assist in evaluating the recommendations further to ascertain if they have the potential to significantly benefit poor households. The report also highlights some programmes on the expenditure side that would assist poorer households, such as strengthening the National School Nutrition Programme and increasing the Child Support Grant and Old Age Pension Grant.

Taking the recommendations to the public for comments, as well as the evaluation of the recommendations by the National Treasury and the SA Revenue Service, the Minister of Finance will then determine which of the panel’s recommendations to implement by including them in the current or future tax legislation for consideration by Parliament. I thank you.


Nkul D H KHOSA: Xandla xa Xipikara na Presidente, Vatsonga va ri ku rhangela a hi ku dya makhondzo kambe i ku tirha hi ku tikarhata na ku tiyimisela. Swa tikomba swinene leswaku loko mi hlangane na xirhalanganyi xo engetela xibalo xa VAT mi tikarhatile ku kondza mi kuma nhlamulo leyi nga yona.


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With these few words I am trying to thank the hon President for the comprehensive response to my question. However, there is still more that I would like to know from you. Hon President, one of your tasks is to ensure that you ease the burden of tax for the people that you are leading - “Sa muranga panda.” [As a leader]. To what extent are communities out there being educated to ensure that they are not abused by shop owners when they get to the till because this is very important? Further, I want to know when government envisages implementing the zero-rated VAT listed items. As we are talking today there are people that we are leading outside, those that we are trying to assist as we are speaking, that are already being affected by these things. I thank you.


PRESIDENTE WA RIPHABILIKI: Eka VAT hi lava leswaku vanhu va hina va swi twisisa kahle leswaku loko va ya emavhengeleni va kota ku tiva kahle leswaku hi swihi leswi va nga swi xavaka leswi welaka ehansi ka “zero-rates VAT products”. Hi ta endla leswaku ku va na ndlela yo va dyondzisa kahle. Mi boxe xigangiso xa kahle swinene. Hi ta kombela va ka Treasury


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leswaku va endla ndlela leyi nga ta kota ku tivisa na ku dyondzisa vanhu va hina hi yona. Sweswo hi ta swi languta. Ndzi ta kombela Holobye wa swa Timali leswaku a swi languta kahle. Swa laveka leswaku vanhu va hina va swi tiva leswaku loko va ya emavhengeleni va nga kanganyisiwi hi vanhu lava va xavisaka swilo.


When it comes to when this will commence, the Minister of Finance is obviously going to receive all the proposals because he has requested public comments. Once public comments have been fully processed, he will come to Cabinet and outline a proposal that he would like to put forward. Cabinet will discuss the matter and then later we would be able to determine when this should commence.

We say this because we are very much alive to the fact that the majority of our people are really going through hardships in this regard. This is the reason why the Minister has appointed the task team to look at what we can do in terms of identifying products that should be zero-rated. This was precisely to respond to the hardships that our people are


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going through. We are working on it and we should be able to have this concluded and the Minister will come to Cabinet with a clear proposal.

Nonetheless, thank you very much for raising the issue of how we can spread more information to our people about the items that will be zero-rated so that as they go to various shops they should know. Public education is going to be necessary and I thank you for raising the matter. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUT SPEAKER: Hon Khosa, Rule 142 requires that a supplementary question should be one.

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, thank you very much Mr President for your response. Notwithstanding the fact that there are 19 VAT-free items and a few more are considered in the basket, do you not think that there are other commodities which have a knock-on effect on the poor like the fuel levy, VAT on electricity and VAT on water? They are basic commodities. Do you not think that these should also be considered for zero- rating when the Ministry of Finance looks at these items?
These are necessary items that every single person in our


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country uses on a daily basis – water, electricity, fuel and taking taxis and other public transport. Thank you.

The PESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, clearly, these matters should come out in the public comments that the Minister has asked for. If there are proposals in that regard they will have to be assessed properly and measured up in terms of our tax architecture because that is a revenue issue for government. It is true that we must have resources to make sure that the country functions, there is service delivery and that there are social grants. We need to keep that in mind so that we also do not erode our tax collection processes as well. Nonetheless, this is a proposal that is being put forward and we will see how it works with the various comments that are going to come from our people. Thank you very much for that as well.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSISTION: Mr President, I just want to remind you that your government voted against the amendments that we made to adjust the VAT rate. I want to raise to you, Mr President, that the fuel levy now stands at R5,30 per litre. This means that anyone filling up 50 litres is spending


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R265,00. This also adds to the cost of paraffin and our people are struggling.

What I would like to say is that, in all fairness, this is corruption tax. When you look at the Road Accident Fund it is declaring losses and money is just being wasted. I want to ask you to task your Cabinet to let them present a plan as to how are they going to mitigate this thing.

Yesterday, Minister Radebe came here and he was unable to produce a plan. You said this on 06 July, but still they have not done anything, and now it is 38 days later.

Mr President, I want to ask you while you are here, in fact, is there a plan to reduce the fuel levy or there is no one, or is there an accountable plan so that we can tell the people at home that there is hope for that. At this point in time your Ministers cannot produce a plan. So I would like to know if there is, in fact, one and can we hold you accountable to it. [Time expired.]


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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me start off with the fuel. Fuel is a function of what happens in the world in terms of the prices of the dollar and oil. [Interjections.] There was a moment when we thought that we would suddenly have a decline that would lead us to have the price come down, but that did not happen and it happened as a result of what happens globally.

The fuel levy is part of the fiscal architecture that we have in our country and it is regulated as part of what the Minister of Finance has to deal with. We have said that we want to look at all that and it is part of the whole process that we are looking at. We have now looked at the VAT issue and that one has been able to yield some relieve for our people. As we go forward the fuel issue is one of those that we are looking at. We are very sensitive to the burden that has been imposed on our people. In doing so, we have to measure up a number of things. In the end solutions have to be measured up with what happens. If we just reduce the fuel levy and at the same time what happens if we lose that revenue. It has an impact in the whole range of other things.


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Truth be told, Mr Maimane, it is a difficult one. It is one of those things that we as government have to deal with. It is not as easy as like just snapping a finger and you come up with an answer. All I can say to you, and indeed to the rest of our people, it is one of those issues that we continue to look at and seek solutions for.

We are in a difficult situation because we import a commodity whose price we have no control of and we have based our tax architecture on that as well. As we try to do the balance we have to look at a whole range of things. That is as best as we can put it to you, hon Maimane and to the rest of our people. Thank you very much.

Prof M N KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker ...


... mhlonishwa Mongameli, iqiniso lithi abantu banyenyekile ngempela, bakhathazekile ngokunyuka kwe-VAT kanye nophethiloli. Ukuba bekuya ngabo ngabe bathola usizo ngokushesha. Kodwa bengifuna ukuthola ukuthi ...


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... whether this panel of experts has looked broadly ...


... ukubheka ukuthi yiziphi ezinye izindlela ...


... that can assist so that people are not pressed as they are. I am saying this because at the moment we have Lonmin Platinum Mine ...


... othi ...


... will shed 3 000 jobs and later in two years they say they will shed another 12 600 jobs.


Sibe no-Implats othi yena uzodiliza abantu abangu-13 000. yonke lento, laba bantu uma bengasebenzi ...


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... they will end up suffering even more. I want to say, what is it that you can say in light of all these jobs being shed and we have this problem in front of us? Thank you ...


... Mongameli.

UMONGAMELI WEZWE LASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa, into ekhona ukuthi leli komidi elabekwa wuNgqongqoshe liye labhekisisa izinto eziningana kodwa-ke lithe uma liqeda ukuphenya wathi uNgqongqoshe uzofuna ukuthi lombiko walo ...


... must go for public comment. So ...


... kuyaphoqa-ke ukuthi abantu, umphakathi ube nendlela yokuthi babeke amazwi abanawo, ukuphawula noma iziphakamiso



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... and that’s what we are waiting for. The Minister has, in my view, done the correct thing of releasing the report for public comments and we expect our people through their various formations and even individually to come forward and make comments. Based on that, as I said earlier, the Minister will be able to assess those comments and bring them to Cabinet and we will take things forward.

We do this because we are very much alive to the hardships that our people are going through right now. It is a very difficult economic situation that our people are facing and our country is going through it as well. We are seeking ways and means in which we as government can respond to ease the burden that our people are going through. So we are waiting for those comments. I thank you.

Question 17:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, on 31 July in my capacity as the President of the ANC I announced that the ANC would propose an amendment to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa that could provide greater clarity on


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the circumstances under which expropriation without compensation can be effected.

The proposal is informed, among other things, by the views of our people that have been expressed in public hearings that had been taking place and also by the members of the ANC. It is based on an understanding that the Constitution, as it currently stands, does allow for expropriation without compensation in certain circumstances. The proposal is intended to make explicit what is currently implicit in the Constitution.

This announcement does not undermine nor does it pre-empt the outcome of the public consultation process that is currently underway.

Much like the pronouncements of other political parties including the pronouncements by the hon Leader of the Opposition; this position will guide the contribution of its members in the parliamentary process.


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Once Parliament has adopted a position on the matter, it will become government’s responsibility to implement.

As I indicated during the 2018 state of the nation address, government is determined that land reform should be implemented in a way that increases agricultural production, improves food security and ensures that the land is returned to those from whom it was taken under colonialism and apartheid.

I have appointed an Inter-Ministerial Committee on Land Reform, led by the Deputy President, which has been tasked with coordinating measures to accelerate the redistribution of land, the extension of security of tenure, the provision of agricultural support and the redress of spatial inequality.

In essence, when we look at our constitution we see a document and an instrument that is transformational in nature and that is also empowering in its content.


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And this process that we have started should take place within a broad and comprehensive land redistribution and agricultural development programme.

The acceleration of land redistribution is necessary not only to redress a grave historical injustice, but also to bring more producers into the agricultural sector and to make more land available for cultivation.

In dealing with just and equitable compensation in the case of expropriation, for example, section 25 calls for an equitable balance between the public interest and those affected. It lists among the relevant circumstances to be considered in deciding on such a balance; such things as the history of the acquisition of the property, its current use and the extent of direct state investment in the property.

The late Andre van der Walt, one of South Africa’s leading constitutional property scholars, has argued that section 25(3) makes non-compensation permissible in appropriate circumstances.


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Furthermore, section 25(8) of the Property Clause explicitly states: “No provision of this section may impede the state from taking legislative and other measures to achieve land, water and related reform in order to redress the results of past racial discrimination”.

The intention of the proposed amendment, in the end let it be understood, is to strengthen the property rights of all South Africans and to reinforce the transformative nature of our Constitution. It gives greater force to the requirement in the Bill of Rights, which says: “The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures within its available resources, to foster conditions which enable citizens to gain access to land on an equitable basis.”

It will provide certainty to those who own land, to those who need land and to those who are considering investing in our economy.

Many people on hearing the proposal that was made third, we are grateful that at last we can now have certainty of how this whole debate on land is going to play out. Many people


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have been involved in this debate without greater clarity of where it will end has been debilitating; we now know what the outcome could well be.

This debate has unleashed what I would call a wonderful process in our country where many people, writers, commentators, ordinary people, politicians, business people, you name them, have had the opportunity, for the first in a very long time, to engage in a meaningful debate on an issue that affects many people in our country.

The question of land – as I’ve said before – is not going to go away. The question of land was an issue when the ANC was formed in 1912; and it has stayed with us since 1912 and we can thank the young people in our country; the ANC Youth League were the first to really advocate for this issue of land. [Applause.]

Today we are debating the issue and we are having meaningful debates; and these debates – in the end – must be underpinned by a number of considerations: the first consideration must be, we must transform our land or property ownership in our


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country; that goes without saying, we have to do it, we have to embrace this process that is underway.

The second consideration is that we must develop – it must be underpinned by development. We must –as we embrace it – ensure that it’s going to lead to increased agricultural production and it is going to inject growth in our economy.

The third consideration is that we must do it in a way as to enhance stability in our country.

So, those three issues are key as we proceed with this. But I would like to say that those who have been terrified and afraid should now know that this matter is beginning to sink in the minds and the consciousness of South Africans.

Yesterday I had an occasion to meet the leadership of Agri-SA and I was pleasantly surprised to hear them say, we acknowledge that colonialism was really bad for land ownership in our country, apartheid was really terrible for land ownership our country and the 1913 Land Act was a really bad intervention in our country. And they say, we want to correct


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the injustices of the past; we would like to work with you to find ways in which we can correct the injustices of the past.

Meaning that they have embraced the fact that we now have to move forward with the land question. They have embraced the fact that, yes, there is going to be change in the way that land is owned in our country. so, those who would have wanted to resist are now coming to terms with the fact that we have to change; and change, we are going to because our people want the wound that was inflicted on them to be healed; and the only way we can heal this wound is to transform our land ownership.

And that is going to ensure that we have stability in our country, that we can move forward with greater stability in our economy and we can move forward with our nation-building processes.

So, fellow South Africans, that is where we have to go; we should no longer be afraid of this process of having to change the land ownership architecture in our country. It is here and


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it is here to stay; it is going to happen. Thank you very much. [Applause.]




Mr President, I think you and I ... and I agree with you that land ownership patterns in this country must change. That’s a good thing. And I want to thank the authors of our Constitution who foresaw Venezuela, who foresaw that, and put section 25 into the Constitution. It is those South Africans who the duty and that’s our position.

And former President Motlanthe is absolutely correct when he says that the reason why there’s a problem with land reform is the fact that there’s corruption, there’s an incapable state and there’s a lack of political will to achieve what the ambitions of the Constitution are. [Applause.]

Now, you said to me I must give you suggestions. Here is one; your government already owns wingfield, youngsfield and


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culemborg here in Cape Town. This discussion is about urban land ownership. If you are seriously committed to this process, within the current Constitution, no need for change, you would release this land as we’ve asked you since 2006. [Applause.] You will hand over these pieces of land so that we can ensure that South Africans who want to live closer to the city can get housing so that they can get to place of work. [Interjections.]

When ask you, will you commit ... sorry [Interjection.] awume kancane [wait a minute], will you commit in this House to release these large pieces of land so that we can build hundred thousands of houses closer to the city for South Africans who have been left behind, which are already in your hands within the Constitution, so we can give title to South Africans who are left out? Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Maimane is saying we should release the land and informed him that the Cabinet Lekgotla decided that we should immediately embark on a rapid release of land. And we are not worried about releasing land, clearly I’m not [Inaudible.] with the pieces


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of land that he’s talking about and would like to examine that because the process that is now going to have to take place is that we obviously are going to be categorising pieces of land throughout the country; that is what are going to do and as we do that, the one thing that is going to be driving what we have to do is how best we can advance the interests of our people; that is the most important thing.

I’m glad that in the end, hon Maimane, is recognising that the issue of giving land to our people now has to move ahead, it has to happen and as it happened we are going to make sure that it is properly managed, properly directed and so that we can improve the lives of our people.

This historical injustice must be brought to an end. And I’m glad that you join us in making sure that this can happen.
Thank you very much, Mr Maimane.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker and President. What is more comforting, is that when people talk about the people who wrote the Constitution as if those people are dead; forgetting that they are talking to one of them, and who knows that it


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can be amended that Constitution when he wrote it; included in that Constitution, an amendment of the same Constitution.

But if you came late to politics you may not know that you are talking to a person who wrote the Constitution. [Laughter.] And you talk to him in past tense as if he’s no longer there.

Now, President, mine is slightly different. In the EFF we believe that the state must own land, the whole land [Interjections.] including Hout Bat and Camps Bay, must be owned by the state. Because this thing of title deeds, President ... [Interjection.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, your time [Interjections.] please ask your question.

Mr J S MALEMA: This thing of title deeds Mr President is a set up; they want you to give our people title deeds knowing very well that our people are poor, they will sell the land back to them and the narrative that they stole land will go away. Do you agree that the state must be the owner of the land?


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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Maimane, I think you and I agree that land must be given to our people [Interjections.] and that’s you and I agree on. And I know that one of the things that’s driving you to say that the state must own all the land is this fear that you have that our people will be driven to start selling the land. That is precisely one of the things that many people said, that you give people title deeds and they will soon sell the land or the houses and they will remain poor. That is a false fear, I’m afraid, because our people who have had title deeds and who are currently being given title deeds, become so proud that finally in the end they own something that they can show and demonstrate with their hands. [Applause.]

So, hon Maimane, I think we should not rob ... [Interjections.]


O ntshwarele.


Mr J S MALEMA: You’re calling me with wrong names.


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Mr G A GARDEE: Re a ho tshwarela Makwerhu [My brother]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: O ntshwarele, ke entse phoso e kgolokgolo ya ho bapisa CIC le ntate Maimane. Tjhee bo! [Ditsheho]


I think we should not rob our people from this deep yearning and quest to want to own their pieces of land. Right now, hon Malema, we are going through a particular process in our country because with the recent land reform process that we embarked on, our rural development department started buying a number of pieces of land and then leasing them out to our people.

Now, the experience that we have is that many of those people are sometimes finding it difficult to get loans because the banks say “you don’t own this piece of land, we can’t give a loan on the basis of a lease” and some of them are coming forward and saying “we want to own, we want to have a sense of ownership of the land that you’re distributing to us”


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[Applause.] so, I think ... mind you, rather than frustrate this deep quest that our people have about, yes, owning the land, we should not frustrate them by saying “you cannot own this land, it’s now going to be owned by the state”, we should allow our people to own the land. And I’m quite happy that we sit down and debate this issue because the architecture of our land reform must be such that it is empowering to our people, it must lead to transformation and it must get our people to have a sense that they can identify with the land that is now going to be put in their hands.

As we do so, we must obviously take a number of issues into consideration. What you are suggesting was done for the mineral rights of our country when the government said “all the mineral rights are owned by the government”; there were a number of people who protested and even took the government to court. But that was a different set of circumstances. In this regard ordinary people want to have a sense of ownership of a piece of land; and some of them, particularly who land was taken away from, want a restoration of the land that was taken from them. [Applause.]


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So, you and I have a lot to talk about and we can debate this matter. But what is pleasing is that there’s growing agreement amongst all of us that release of land, the transformation that must take place in relation to land and the expropriation of land has now become more and more accepted. We now need to move forward; and moving forward is going to mean that we deal with the categorisation of the pieces of land that needs to be given to our people so that it can drive economic growth, agricultural production and ensure that there is food security.

I think that’s where the debate must now revolve around; because we should no longer be trapped in the argument that “no, you should not move ahead with land reform by utilising expropriation without compensation as one of the measures”. We now need to move ahead; yes, distribute government land and identify a number of pieces of land.

Let me say, one of the issues that are coming up is that a number of companies are coming forward and they are saying to us, Mr President we have no business to own land, we have large tax of land that can be parcelled out to our people. Our


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quest is that we should continue doing business and we want to be in partnership with our people.

So, a number of solutions and options are being opted for; and that is what we should be focusing attention on. It was pleasing for me to hear people who have been opposing this prospect, coming forward and say we have solutions. And the other pleasing thing is that there are black farmers’ organisations that are united with the white farmers’ organisations and are saying they want to sit down and come out with a land reform architecture which they can put to government and out to the public.

We are on to something that can lead to really positive results. I would like all of us, as South Africans, to move away from this fear psychosis that has been going around, particularly those who are going around spreading lies and rumours, organisations like AfriForum, running overseas and say the ANC is out for the land grab; there is no such thing. The ANC wants to make sure that there is land reform that is going to lead to the growth of our economy. The ANC wants to


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make sure that there will be increased agricultural production and food security.

If we embrace that type of approach, we are going to solve this problem and restore the dignity of our people by giving them the land that they should have. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms S J NKOMO: Hon Deputy Speaker, it’s hon Hlengwa who will be speaking on my behalf.

Mr M HLENGWA: Deputy Speaker, our apologies. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Hlengwa, you must alert us in advance when that mistake happens, do not wait.


Mnu M HLENGWA: Siyaxolisa Sekela Somlomo, ngeke kuphinde kwenzeke.



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Hon President here is the problem; I would want to believe that your announcement in the late hours of the night which was a feature of the past was a knee jerk reaction to some sort of pressure from somewhere. [Interjections.]

Mr M HLENGWA: And you made it in the absence of a plan. You made it in the absence of fully taking into account the ramifications of what you are saying and also pre-empting the parliamentary process and I will tell you why I am saying that Mr President. A leader who speaks from both sides of his mouth is very dangerous, on the basis that on who you are speaking to, then you take a position. You spoke to the Afrikanerbond and you said there would be no changes to the Constitution and then there will be a change.

So, the question is: How can we trust you with such a delicate matter, when we do not know where you fundamentally stand? And I put it to you Mr President that as the chief author of the Constitution with your colleague Mr Roelf Meyer, before you move to the amendment of the Constitution, tell us as to how did section 25 which you wrote fail? Take us into your


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confidence that where it fails that you arrive at this point in time, so that we have a better appreciation of the position that you are saying now, because we all we all want land, but we want it under the leadership that we can trust and that is honest to the facts. [Applause.]


USEKELA SOMLOMO: Isikhathi sakho siphelile baba.


Your time has expired.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Hlengwa. Hon Hlengwa, yes, the announcement was made in the evening and it was not midnight as some people have sought to suggest.


It was in the early part of the evening and just as I said earlier, I made the announcement as the President of the ANC and just as any leader of parties that are here have been able


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to speak about this issue, but the ANC being the majority party has all the rights to put its position forward, to give leadership to the country about what needs to be done and that is precisely what we have done. [Applause.]

You may not like it, you may not like the fact that it was done in the evening, but it is what it is. The ANC has spoken on this matter and it has also said it is going to manage this matter as well as it should be managed.

The second issue is: Section 25 makes it quite clear that that expropriation is a process that can be embarked upon and you may well have a point in saying that we have not utilised it to good effect as well as it should have been used. Now, we embarked on a process of seeking to effect land reform in our country through going through the length and the breadth of the country buying up land and the budget that we had was never going to be enough. In fact if you really want to know, if we were to follow that measure, because we have a number of measures that we can follow, if we were going to follow that measure alone, it would easily take us 75 or a 100 years before we achieve the objective that we seek. [Interjections.]


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Now, what would it cost us? I would cost us easily more than R500 billion to R750 billion; money that we do not have. At the same time, we are facing a demand from our people and this is what the ANC has had to respond to, faced with the demand from our people, a deep quest for land amongst our people. It was decided that we now need to speed up the land reform process and we should have as one of the measures that can be utilised, expropriation without compensation which is implicit in the Constitution. It is implicit and we can utilise this measure. We are now going to say and our people say, “Make it very clear and make it explicit by effecting an amendment to the Constitution because it is implicit.” It is not like we are doing something that is completely new and strange. Right now, we are able to expropriate without compensation and we want to make it clear, so that we are able to say with greater clarity, it is one of the measures we can use and we can use a whole range of other measures as well.

So, hon Hlengwa, we are not speaking from both sides of the mouth, we are speaking about a reality that exist and this is what the Constitution of our country does implicitly enable us to do. And yes indeed, it is a proposal from the ANC. The


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parliamentary process will continue and as it reaches its fruition, the ANC will put forward this proposal, it will be debated, it will come back here and we will discuss it and the rest will then outflow.

So, fear not, hon Hlengwa, this process is going to be as transparent as possible. In fact, what we have said to the rest of our people is that come forward with your proposals. Many people have said, “Now there is certainty of where we are going, we are now able to make proposals on something that we can see where it is leading to.” So, I would like everyone here, including people outside, to come forward with proposals and as I say, I am filled with deep gratitude that many of our people have been participating in all these discussions. To us as the ANC, it has become very clear; very, very clear what our people are saying and that is precisely what we are responding to. However, we are also saying, let the process unfold unabated and we will then see how in the end the members of this House deal with the proposals that would have been put together. That is what we are saying. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]


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Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we move to the hon Groenewald. Sorry.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, before the hon Groenewald takes to the podium, I have to express this concern and I am serious this time around, I am not joking.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what are you rising on?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, look ...


Musani ukuthi hayi.


Deputy Speaker, my point of order is: I wrote to your office in particular and I ask that we build some transparency into the follow-up question system here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, hon member.


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Mr N L S KWANKWA: I am not sitting down. I need to make my point,




...you cannot continue doing this thing. You said to me, you will use your own discretion, but we have been pressing and pressing here like complete fools ...


... anisihoyi


What do you expect me to say?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can I advise you?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, can you allow me to finish please?


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Can I make my point please?


Undiphazamisa rhoqho,


... when I stand up here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, in the first place you have said yourself that you have written to me, in particular.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Tata, ndicela ukuthetha le nto uyaziyo.


I wrote a letter to you, expressing our concern and dissatisfaction as the party about this follow-up question system here in Parliament where there is no transparency. We have no way of saying who is next. You said in response to


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that letter I wrote to you on behalf of the UDM, you said, “You do not want ...”

Can I finish my point please!


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can I request you to finish? No, man!

Mr N L S KWANKWA: No! But Deputy Speaker, we come ... the last time I got an opportunity to ask the President the question was when he was still the Deputy President, and yet I have been pressing all the time! Do you think it is fair?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please sit down man. This matter has been dealt with before. [Interjections.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: No! But it still affects us.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It will be dealt with again in the House.


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Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, but you are not using the same discretion you said ... [Inaudible.] ... you are using! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your name is not here!

Mr N L S KWANKWA: It was! The General’s name was there, I was there. I saw it!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please man! Can we come back to you, we have written to you and we have responded to you. Take your seat. We will respond to you again. The Rules Committee received a considered response on this matter and we circulated it to you and to other members who were here who raised similar questions. Hon Groenewald, please go on. [Interjections.]


Dr P J GROENEWALD: Adjunkspeaker ... [Tussenwerpsels.]



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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Allow the hon Groenewald to proceed, please.

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon President, I want to start by saying to you that I differ on your views. I do not think and I am sure that expropriation without compensation is not going to speed up the whole land reform issue. And I also want to say that you, yourself in your answers today, have mentioned that investors want certainty when it comes to land. However, I want to say to you, the people who really want certainty are the landowners of South Africa. [Interjections.]

They want the certainty of their land. And I know that you are a very good negotiator and everybody knows that you have mesmerised Roelf Meyer and I suppose you have mesmerised some agricultural leaders also, but I have a message to you also today, hon President. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, why do you ignore the time allocated to you? Hon member, I am afraid your time is now up.


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Dr P J GROENEWALD: No, Chairperson, no! I was interrupted also. I will round up!


Agb President, daar is ook ’n boodskap van ander boere, en dis ’n ernstige boodskap. Met respek gesê, die boere se boodskap is hulle sal nie vrywillig afstand doen van hul grond nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit moet u ook verreken.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time is up. Your time is gone now.


Ngk P J GROENEWALD: Hai thula wena warasa!


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order! Order! Do not do that to that member. He has a right to express his opinion. No, you cannot!



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You want your views to be protected and said in the House. He has that right! Hon members, please mind your language! Hon member, what are you rising on?

Mr N M PAULSEN: Deputy Speaker that man just threatened that they are not going to give out willingly.


He just threatened that! That Afrikaner, boere will not give out willingly, but you allow this!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no, no! You should have in the first place rose to say that, not to talk to the person in a way in which you did! There should be order in how we handle our differences. Hon members, please let us proceed with this matter.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, no, we were not fighting. We were just telling him that we are not scared of him and the people he is talking about.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon Malema, no.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker ...


Ek wil net sê wat ons in hierdie land moet doen, is om te sorg dat transformasie plaasvind. Ons moet ook sorg dat ons ontwikkeling het. Ons moet ook sorg dat ons stabiliteit het.
Hierdie drie dinge is baie belangrik as ons wil hê Suid-Afrika moet vooruitgang toon. Nou, as ons nie transformasie het nie, sal ons nie stabiliteit hê nie.


Now we have to balance all these things. Unless we have land redistribution in our country, we will not have stability.
Those who say, we want to hold on to our land, they may find that they hold on to something that does not exist anymore. [Applause.]

So, we must as leaders, ensure that we transform and transformation must mean that we have redistribution of land, because there is a historical injustice that was committed


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many years ago. The wound continues to fester. We must at the same time have development.

Now, this is where we can all work together and that is why hon member, I had great joy in talking to the agricultural organisations, who said:

We want to make sure that through the land redistribution process, there is development. We develop black farmers and make them successful and we also distribute land where our people can live.

The important thing that we should all focus on is stability.

Now, you can make your choice. If you do not want stability, then do not transform. But if you want stability, then we must transform and we must therefore work together to make sure that the transformation process leads to development which will finally give us the dividend of stability. That is precisely the equation that is at play here.



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Dit is transformasie, dit is ontwikkeling, en dit is ook stabiliteit. As ons ons oë op hierdie drie dinge hou ...


... we are going to make sure that our country succeeds. And hence I am saying that we should not be afraid, even the landowners must not be afraid to embrace this process. Now you say, “The landowners want certainty”. I can tell you that those who do not have land also want certainty. It is the people who are hungry for land who want certainty from the government. At the same time the government must balance both, so that we have a win-win type of outcome. That is what I aim to see happens in our country. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

Question 18:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Maimane ... no, you said Maimane, is it Malema? Yes, he is the commander-in-chief.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: President, stop confusing this. [Interjections.]


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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC No, no, he said Maimane.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: You cannot measure a giant against a “kitty kat”, please. Get it right. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member! Hon member! Hon member! Hon member, please withdraw that.


Nk E N NTLANGWINI: Ngiyaxolisa.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, the question by the hon Malema was: Why did government rush to sign the independent power producers? Hon Malema, the successful bidders for the 27 independent power producers, IPP, agreements that the Minister of Energy signed on 4 April had already been selected and announced in 2015.

The three-year delay was the result of the delay in the finalisation of the power purchase agreements that needed to be signed by Eskom. The 27 projects from Bid Window 3,5 to Bid Window 4 of the renewable energy IPP programme were all


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procured during 2014 in accordance with long-standing government energy policy and statutory mandate. The commissioning dates of these projects correspond with demand and supply projections of the integrated resource plan. In line with the integrated resource plan, IRP, projections, the majority of the 27 projects will only start generating power and be paid for their output from late 2020. The 27 projects do not negatively affect Eskom’s current capacity but will supplement and support stable power supply and when Eskom commences with the decommissioning of its aged fleet as projected in the IRP.

As a country, we need to build new reliable power plants to grow our economy. The energy plan in process for securing new generating capacity is not only directed at immediate short- term issues, but rather towards medium to long-term objectives. In Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme, REIPPPPP, increasing renewable capacity is a cost-effective means of reducing carbon emissions.

International research forecasts that new photovoltaic prices will fall to around 20 cents per kilowatt hour by 2030


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compared to the average Eskom’s prices that will rise to over

100 cents per kilowatt hour, as a result of, among others things, the full capital and generation cost of Medupi and Kusile. The benefits of the Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Programme will continue to grow. By March 2018, a total of 64 projects were in operation and under construction representing a total investment of R142 billion.

Renewable energy IPPs have created over 35 000 job years for youth, women and citizens from local communities and have invested around R766 million on education, health, social welfare and enterprise development projects in various communities. South Africa’s groundbreaking renewable energy programme is firmly rooted in the National Development Plan, is guided by the integrated resource plan and has been part of the ANC policy for over a decade. So, this is not new and it has certainly not been rushed.

Hon Malema, this was already agreed to in 2015, and as I said the delay in having signed off was really a delay in finalising the agreements. You may have thought that this was rushed and for this and that other reason, that is certainly


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not the case; it happened as it was supposed to happen and emanating from 2015. It is possible that you may not have been aware that this started in 2015 but it certainly is the case.


Ha se ntho ya maobane. Ntho ena e qadile ka 2015 re se ntse re tswella pele.


Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, through you to the President, we are told that Eskom currently produces energy much more cheaper than the IPPs, and when you plug in the new power stations like Kusile, we will then have more excess in South Africa. Are you not going to destroy Eskom and lead us to a situation where a lot of our people lose jobs, especially when you plug these IPPs into the national grid? Do we have other things which we may not know? Perhaps this is one of the cash heist that seeks to benefit business associates and your relatives, particularly your brother-in-law, Patrice Motsepe
... [Laughter.] ... who is now coming into play into the space


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of independent power producers. So, please answer honourably and truthfully.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker ...


Ke tsebile gore o ya gona mouwe.


Truth be told, hon Malema, the costing of the IPPs may seem like they are a little excessive, but the power that is generated by these IPPs, is put into the grid. Once it is in the grid, it is blended with the power that is generated from our nuclear power station in Koeberg, and it is blended with the coal-fired power stations in Witbank and all over and the pricing in the end – the pricing is never said ...


... ena e entswe ke IPP, e tla ba theko e hodimo. Ena e entswe ke Koeberg e tla ba theko e tlase.



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... the pricing is blended within the whole mix. Now, with regard to Eskom, the full blend that is granted by National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, is such that it is a blended price that Eskom also has to pay in the end. Now, we are saying that these power stations as the independent power producers of renewable energy prices should come down, it is going to be a lot cheaper in the end than what Eskom is generating power at. You are concerned about us having a surplus of power; this surplus power is just a momentary transitional power because quite a number of Eskom power stations are old and they have to be retired. In time to come, we are going to start seeing quite a number of our power stations being retired. Now, the obligation that we have is to make sure that the workers who are working in those power stations are not left high and dry and are unemployed. So, that is where we now need to make sure that we create clear pathways for those workers because those power stations are going to reach a stage where they are tired. These power stations are budgeted for, for example, you will find out that one will be alive for 40 years and the other one for so many years, ...


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... di swana le meepo.


The mines become depleted over time and so do power stations. The key issue for us and the main challenge is going to be how do we make sure that those workers have a safe landing – those workers who are working in our power stations are not left without any form of employment. The good thing is that we have a good lead time going there and therefore as we are committed to a mixed energy type of architecture, where we have renewables, fossil, nuclear and hydro. We must make sure that we stick to that mixed energy architecture across the board and ensure that the people who work in our power stations – who generate power or energy for us, do not in the end lose their jobs.


Ke tsebile gore o ya gona mouwe nako ye o thoma ka potšišo ya gago, o nagana gore ...



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... these IPPs were done to advance certain interests.


Nka kgona go go botša ka nnete gore ...


... I have nothing to do with any person who is currently in business, doing either IPPs or whatever. I have nothing to do with that. People who are advancing their own businesses do so as it is their businesses and where I am, I sit as a regulator and I made sure that I will never get involved in businesses of that nature. I am very much aware of the fact that where I stand I should never seek to advance the interests of relatives and people who are close to me and if they are conducting business and if I need to declare ...


... gore mothaka yo ke a mo tseba - mohlala, go swana le wena; ge o be o le molamo wa ka, ke be ke tla bolela gore o molamo wa ka ... [Disego.]



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... maybe fortunately or unfortunately. I would have said that Malema ...


... ke a mo tseba ...


... so that when the matter is discussed, I am nowhere near there. And that is the ethical behaviour that we expect. Let’s say my brother-in-law in involved in a business; he is involved in his own business and there should never be any suspicion, hon Malema, in what we do or what I do as a regulator. Indeed, even what the Minister of Energy does - also as a regulator, there should never be a suspicion that he is advancing the interests of a relative. If you have evidence to prove it, bring it forward - so that re bo kwe bohlatse bjoo [we can hear that evidence]. We must stop casting aspersions. We must just stop spreading rumours that “moketekete” [someone] is being favoured because ...


... ke molamo wa moketekete goba ke malome wa moketekete.


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That should stop. If we find that there is fault, there is corruption, then we must raise it on an informed basis and on an evidence basis.


Re se ke ra sepela gohle re bolela fela, o ka re re stokfeleng. A re boleleng nnete.


Thank you very much.

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon President, the previous President said the thing that you are saying - the same thing!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema! Hon Malema! I am going to switch off this microphone.

Mr J S MALEMA: He even said to us we must not spread rumours when he was putting his hand in the till.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you are not supposed to do that.


Mr J S MALEMA: ... go a lewa felo mo! [Disego.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are out of order!


Mr J S MALEMA: Nnete e tla tšwelela. [Disego.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you are wilfully breaking the Rules; you know what you should be doing. You were warned in writing.


MOETELEDIPELE WA LEKOKOKGANETSO: Moporesitente, batho ba rona kwa malapeng ba tlhagisa gore tlhwatlhwa ya motlakase e kwa godimo gape e a ba imela.


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... and it is within that context that we support IPPs because we believe that competition is good; it drives down costs and it helps.


... jaanong go tswa kgale ...


... the DA-led government has requested that we allow the municipalities to have the right to procure energy directly from IPPs. This way, we would not be stuck in a situation where consumers do not have a choice and municipalities do not have a choice. Don’t you agree with me that the archaic nature of Eskom requires review so that ...


Ka moso re fe



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... from the IPPs directly, so that they can offer our consumers cheaper energy over time rather than we keep the monopoly that Eskom has had ...


... kuze kuyovalwa.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Leader of the Opposition, I think one needs a very keen understanding of the architecture of our energy process. The IPPs produce energy and put it into the national grid.


Ba e hokela dithapong tsohle tsa Eskom.


We have one grid in the country.


Ha ho na tsela ya hore motho a ka reka motlakase ho IPP ka ho otloloha hobane o kena kgokahangong ya naha, (National Grid.)


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This is what I was saying that it is blended in the national grid. There are however, some who are self-generating electricity in localised areas. For instance, some factories are generating their own electricity either using bar gas or other types of renewable energy products; that is possible. But for a municipality, the electricity has to be put in the national grid and then at the end be channelled through into the municipality.

If you are saying that we need to look at Eskom in the way that Eskom business can be looked at - in a different way where there are generations, transmissions and distributions, then that is a different matter. That is a matter that obviously can be looked at. It has been looked at before and it is a matter that we will continue to look at to try and debate and find solutions to. On that issue, I invite you to come with your pearls of wisdom, if any, and put them on the table. [Interjections.] Thank you very much.

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Deputy Speaker, through you to the hon President, I would like to ask for facts. Why does the


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calculation of a levelised cost of electricity not include additional tax costs? Why does the calculation not include the current environmental levy of 3,5 cents per kilowatt hour or a carbon tax of 10 cents per kilowatt-hour? President, further to this, this makes the hon Malema’s statement correct when he states the price of electricity. Under the current arrangement, renewable energy companies get paid irrespectively whether Eskom has paid or not. That takes municipalities months and years to pay Eskom in some cases, but the renewable energy companies have paid immediately, which makes a huge difference. Sir, don’t you agree that this is happening and what is your government going to do, going forward?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The issue of municipalities paying Eskom within reasonable timeframes is a matter that we are looking at. The issue of IPPs is the matter that is governed by an agreement that is reached in the end between our Department of Energy, those IPPs as well as Eskom. We obviously want our municipalities to move to a situation where they are able to pay their liabilities quickly to Eskom. As we


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stand now, Eskom is owed billions and billions of rands by our municipalities.

The Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is working precisely on this issue - going through each municipality’s liabilities to Eskom and finding ways in which those liabilities can be reduced and in the end eliminated. So, government is involved in that type of a task and it is part of our process of improving service delivery at municipality level - service delivery that should lead not only to electricity being distributed in an efficient way but also lead to a whole range of other services. So, we are busy and we are working on that and I am sure that we should be able to get solutions that have efficacy going forward. Thank you very much.

Mr F Z MAJOLA: Hon Deputy Speaker, through you to the President, I agree with you. Firstly, we should not counterpose the different energy sources because they are part of our energy mix. Secondly, we should focus on the substantive issues - since the introduction of the IPPs, the substantive issues has been price and jobs. We have clarified


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the issue of price and I want you to clarify it better. I want to know whether there is a relationship between the introduction of IPPs and the lifespan of the coal mines and whether government will indeed consider that state-owned companies should get involved in the renewable energy sector. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, we would obviously like state-owned enterprises to diversify their business operations. There are some that have an appetite to get involved in renewable energy type of projects and we would encourage that. Right now I would say that we should not look at it in a negative way that there are definitely going to be all those job losses because we are going to try and find ways in which to mitigate whatever job loss there may be as the power stations age.

We already have a few power stations that have already started running out of their capability of delivering the energy that we need and when it does happen we will want to make sure that we are able to show up those workers who may lose their job opportunities. The energy mix that we have is meant to be seen


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also as a boon where we can actually create more jobs going forward. As we roll out the various sources of this broad energy mix, we should see it as a job creator going forward. There are quite a number of aspects of this energy mix that I believe can contribute very positively to job creation and to economic growth. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr President, that concludes the business of the day and we thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I have a cigar for Mr Steenhuizen and I am happy to distribute it to him as I promised. I promised that I will give him a cigar; particularly today for the good behaviour that I think he demonstrated. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon President, I think you and Mr Steenhuizen will be called to the Speaker’s Office to explain tobacco exchange in the House. [Laughter.] Thank you very much, hon members.


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Mr G A GARDEE: Say the House is adjourned, man. [Interjections.] Talk, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, go home please. Thank you very much.

The House adjourned at 17:57.



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