Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 17 Apr 2018


No summary available.











The Council met at 14:02.



The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no Notices of Motions or Motions without Notice. Before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers. I now proceed to call on ...



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I would like to refer you to Rule 246(2) and Rule 246(4). Rule 246(2) says questions for oral reply are limited to four questions per member per day. It says no more than six questions for oral reply may be put to a Minister in respect of any one government department on any particular day.


Chairperson, I wonder if it is my bad luck or of the IFP because there’s only one question for this member for today. There is nowhere in the Rules where it says Rule 249 takes precedence over these Rules. Today the Minister of Arts and Culture will respond to seven questions, the Minister of Basic Education will respond to nine questions. I would like the Chairperson to clarify that to me. Thanks.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You quoted the Rules and I do understand and agree with you that there is nowhere in the Rules that says Rule 249 takes precedence. But I think it is important for us to understand why Rule 246(6) was crafted. The fact that a Minister receives a question for oral reply and does not respond in time and the question is then brought back into the House for oral response, must be seen in the light where the House and Parliament actually forces the Ministers to take those questions seriously.



I am aware that there are a number of questions which have been treated this way. I have also taken liberty to look at the Rules and asked in particular Advocate Phindela to advice on this matter. If we agree that we will only say that we have a Rule that says no Minister will respond to more than six questions in a session, it means that Ministers will continuously not respond to question and


we will never be able to pin them down. So, I please sir, apply the Rule today that says these Ministers, these questions which have been brought back here be responded to orally.



Ensure that these Ministers will not take us for granted again. I thought we agreed as the NCOP that from now onwards we will try and apply the Rules. You are also right; Rule 249 does not preclude, it is happening at the same time, which means that is what we have tried to do. Give a particular Minister their six questions and then impose the other three or one because they have failed to respond in time. So, I am going to say that yes, by all means, we do not want to make this a daily thing. I think that we need to start putting our foot down to say that questions are put by members for oral or written response and they do not come back, we will have to do something about it.





Mnu M KHAWULA:          Hhayi cha, ngiyakuvumela Sihlalo wami ohloniphekile bengisho nje ukuthi ...





... where we adjust so that we get the benefit of more, we also can adjust elsewhere so that Khawula gets the benefit of four questions.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, we’ve heard hon Khawula and his caucus.



Mr M KHAWULA: But in respect of Ministers responding to all these questions, I don’t have a problem with that.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can we now proceed and I want to call the Deputy Minister of Arts and Culture. You are welcome madam. The first question for today is one that is put to the Minister of Arts and Culture by hon Hattingh, which is Question

58. Please proceed.






Question 58:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the Department of Arts and Culture budgeted a total amount of R3 million to implement the Winnie Madikizela-Mandela house in Brandfort by the Independent Development Trust, which is referred to as IDT, an entity of the Department of Public Works, from the 2011-12 financial year through a Memorandum of Agreement of the total budget. An amount of R1 858 195,71 was transferred to IDT for project


implementation. The IDT appointed an architect that was paid R476 000 78,60 for the architectural work and principal agent

related task. The IDT appointed contractor and was paid R117 000 543 for the preliminary establishment on site and foundation excavation. The Department of Arts and Culture terminated its relationship with the IDT on 9 November 2016, based on the findings of an investigation report that amongst others indicated that the Department of Arts and Culture did not receive value for money.



In the absence of any contractor on site, the Department of Arts and Culture has appointed the following companies, Patterndown Consulting and Projects has been appointed to install a perimeter fence, a guard house with running water and toilet facilities for an amount of R143 098.



A local company, Chillion Pty Limited has been appointed to provide a 24-hour security services for three months. That is from December to March 2018 for R88 560.



A new implementing agent has been appointed for R1 926 705 to undertake and complete the restoration and construction work. Risimati Consulting Engineers is the new company. It has has been paid R65 691 by the end of March 2018 for the project preliminary


work that has already been done, including inspection of the project with the key stakeholders and the professional team, concept refinement and project viability work, detail project implementation plan and completion. The designs and plans are in place and require consultation and approval by the family of Madigizela-Mandela to ensure that the family input is taken into account before the final approval. Once the plans have been approved by the stakeholders, it will appoint a contractor to undertake the actual construction. It is anticipated that this process will be concluded by July 2018 and construction work will start and be completed by March 2019. I thank you.



Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you for the response, Deputy Minister. Many of our colleagues will also recall that the select committee actually had also presentations about this house and then there was also the Public Protector’s investigation. Now, it appears that more questions are being asked and we are getting more different answers. The reality is, over the last decade, yes, ten years of promises, in excess of R14,7 million was budgeted at various times by the Provincial and National Department of Arts and Culture, of which between R1 million, R3 million, I don’t know, somewhere between was actually indicated to be expenses today during the last decade. Now,


this is according to the feedback from our Public Protector and also from ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Hattingh, concentrate here.



Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Mthimunye is again ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, allow the member to put his supplementary question.



Mr C HATTINGH: It is very funny. Now, this is according to a feedback from the Public Protector. The reality is, nothing after one decade, ten years; nothing can be shown for this entire budget and many expended. The memorial house simply and sadly appears to be just another cash cow for unscrupulous officials, politicians and tenderpreneurs. That’s unfortunate the case. I have to say this right at the backdrop of what we have heard over the past weeks and again numerous promises of a memorial house.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your question, please.



Mr C HATTINGH: It is actually becoming just as the most notorious scandal in the Free State. Now, my question is about past decade,


will the Deputy Minister standing in here hold those people responsible for this mess accountable for the wasted funds, and will the wasted funds be recovered? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I did indicate that the Department of Arts and Culture National, we only took over the museum in 2012 because of the fact that the province is the one that invited us, that brought the museum to us. From whatever years that we are hearing over the radios and TV and everything, we are not part of that. But because we are a caring department, we did ask then the former premier maybe to give us information on what happened before 2012. We are still waiting for that information.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Koni, you are next.



Ms N P KONI: Chairperson, the Deputy Minister is speaking as if 2012 was this Friday. The ANC government failed Mama Winnie, and that is a fact, in her life, and has failed to honour the contribution she made to our struggle in many ways. One of this is by allowing her home in Brandfort which she spend many years in when she was banished by the murders apartheid regime to be neglected and run down. Now, the apartheid regime is here making statements and we are dealing with questions


Money was allocated to maintain and look after the house but the house is still in a bad condition, Deputy Minister, and you are fully aware that money was probably eaten by the ANC, which can be a fact. That is why we want to know now who will be held accountable for government’s failure to spend the money allocated to renovate Mama Winnie’s house in Brandfort and when will these people be held accountable? Thank you, Chair.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I am still repeating what I have said. I said that we appointed IDT and therefore, there was a dispute between IDT and the department because of the fact that we did not get value for money for what then have given to them. The case is still on but because we are a caring department, we did not wait for the case to be completed, hence then, we brought in a new project planner who is starting that.





Ukuba ubani uthobe imali ngomlenze ...





... I am not for that one. Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Order! Hon Michalakis?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Minister, last week, Ace Magashule told the nation that no money was spent on this project. We know now that he lied. One of the most recent tenders in 2017 for R143 000 was awarded to a company called Patterndown Consulting Projects. Their registered address is not Brandfort or Mangaung or Matjhabeng but Parys, Ace’s hometown. In fact, it’s his friends. The same apparent construction company tendered to supply Mangaung Metro with stationary in August 2017, really a multipurpose company. Are you aware that Ace Magashule’s friends were awarded this contract in 2017 by your department, and what are you going to do about it?

Thank you. [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, because you come from the province, you come from Free State, and you are sitting with that information. I will be pleased if you can give us that information so that we can use it as evidence during our investigation because there is a lot that we need to investigate of what happened at the house. Thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Order!



Mr M KHAWULA: For your information, hon Deputy Minister, the Department of Arts and Culture Nationally, has appeared before the Select Committee of Arts and Culture in this House on this matter, they were supposed to come with the district municipality, the local municipality and the province. The Department of Arts and Culture in the province run away, the district run away, they did not come. But what I would like to know from you hon Deputy Minister is, if the department has seen it fit now to appoint the architecture or the planner as you call it, to do the work, what stop the department then to appoint the planner instead of appointing IDT for IDT to appoint on your behalf? Now, you have taken a shortcut, which is what you should have done then. Why did you do it then, and what is the responsibility of Public Works? If you wanted somebody else, why did you not secure the service of Public Works, which was going to be free to you because Public Works is you?








... kuza kufuneka ndicacise kakuhle bhuti ngolwimi lwam ...





... so that you understand the difference between a contractor and IDT as a consultant. A consultant is the one who appoint the contractor, the one who appoint civil engineering, the one who appoint people who does the drawing and everything. Therefore, this time around, we are not doing that directly. We use the Department of Human Settlements to appoint a replacement for IDT because of the fact that we are fighting with the IDT as I am talking to you. So, those are the people who are responsible for appointing the actual people to do the work to mama’s museum.





Enkosi tata.



Question 86:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, the department has strengthened the Mzansi Golden Economy Strategy, MGE, in order to streamline access to finance to artists and arts organisations and for the sustainability of their livelihoods.

Linked to this approach is the development of the annual performance plan score card which gives special preference to geographical and


special target groups in the awarding of grants and provides a measurement yardstick in terms of empowerment framework.



The targeted call for proposals for the new financial year will reflect the expressed need for projects from rural towns and rural areas. Amongst the projects supported by the department through the Mzantsi Golden Economy Strategy, MGE, include women, arts street festivals funded through the Public Art Development Programme. The project was held in the North West province at the Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality and its rural locations. The event was designed to be open and free to the public as a public art event. It draws wider audiences due to its many locations and the public did not need to pay to access it.



This event was held in order to expose local creative talents through music, drama and visual arts with women predominantly featured. It also had a message condemning violence against women and children. The project took place in Phola, Ramosadi and Motlhabeng villages. An African Month Public Arts Project was also held at Makuleke village in Limpopo as part of the MGE Public Art Development Programme which focussed on the young people performing traditional dances, traditional music and rendering poetry. Young


people were drawn from other villages as well as Mabalingwe and Makhahlele villages.



My Body, My Public Space Public Arts Cultural Festival, MBMS, supported by the department takes place in Emakhazeni in Mpumalanga province in March annually. The festival targets emerging artists from the rural towns of Machadodorp, Carolina, Belfast, Waterval Boven and Dullstroom. Some of the artists are also encouraged to set up their own production companies. MBMS attracts many young artists who perform dance, drama and music. Young people are trained and hold rehearsals at studios established by the Forgotten Angle Theatre Collaborative, an NPO based on a farm in Waterval Boven outside Machadodorp. Most of these participants are from the farms and have followed art careers, as a result. I thank you.



Mr D STOCK: Thank you very much hon Deputy Minister for the comprehensive response. Hon Chair, even though there are a number of public initiatives undertaken by the department at national level to encourage more young people at the level of provinces in particular in the deep rural areas, to also take part and benefit from the MGE, the last time that we met with the department as a select committee, we were informed that there are still provinces that are less benefiting and those provinces are: North West, Mpumalanga, Limpopo


and Northern Cape. What is it that you are doing at the level of the Ministers and Members of the Executive Minmec meetings or is there any special treatment or attention given to ensure that all those provinces that I have mentioned are also taken on board and there is more participation in those provinces? Thank you, Chair.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, yes, indeed there is a road show that the department has engaged in, wherein it tours all the provinces and holds Imbizos and talk to young people so that they could understand how to access this funding. What I have observed as a public representative is the fact that rural communities are not getting enough attention. When I followed up to find out where these activities were taking place, I discovered that ...





... uninzi lwayo lusezidolophini kwaye aluyi apho abantu bakhoyo.





We have now drawn a plan for this financial year where I will lead this programme ...





... siye ezilalini ukuze sidibane nolutsha.





We will also be using local community radios so that people can understand that we have this kind of help or programme that we can give our young people. So, thank you very much for that question, hon member.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Hon Chair, in the said road show the MGE undertook in the 2016 and 2017 financial years, the rural areas of this country were ignored as Cape Town, Polokwane, Johannesburg, Welkom, East London, Kimberly, Richards Bay and Potchefstroom were the only places that were visited. This means that rural areas and their people were completely ignored. We want to know if the next road show will be visiting rural areas; and if the answer is yes, which rural areas will be visited. Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, I think I have acknowledged the fact that we discovered that most of the rural communities in the provinces were not given attention. As Members of Parliament it is proper that we work together so that you can give us the names of those places that you think need to be visited by a department. I promise you ...




Nam, ndisuka ezilalini.





I know, and therefore I am here to help. Give us the names of those places and we will definitely visit them. Thank you, Chair.



Ms G G OLIPHANT: Hon Chair, I would like to understand from the Minister the difference between Mzansi Golden Economy and Arts and Culture Council. Thank you, Minister.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon member for that question. Yes, indeed many people still find it difficult to differentiate between the Mzansi Golden Economy and the National Arts Council funding. The MGE is an intervention programme because, when you seek funding from the National Arts Council, there are some strict regulations that you need to follow. As a result, most of the underprivileged communities find it difficult to qualify and get the funding. The MGE is an intervention programme where we say we are biased towards women, youth and individuals who can do good things but unfortunately because of some red tapes in the National Arts Council, cannot do so. Therefore, the MGE is the programme that can assist them.


Just to make an example, you get a young girl or guy who is good at music, football or anything and this person is invited to showcase his skills in New York. The person will struggle to get funding to travel to New York or wherever because there are many requirements and this funding is precisely for such cases. If the person comes to us we know that the policy allows us to do facilitate funding in order for the young person to able to ravel to that specific country. That is precisely what we are doing with the Mzansi Golden Economy.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Hon Chair, the goal of the MGE initiated in 2011 was to create 5 million jobs. How successful has this endeavour been to create sustainable jobs in Arts and Culture? Secondly, how many of those young entrepreneurs are still busy and running successful and sustainable businesses? Thank you, Chair.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, when it comes to the figures I do not want to stand here and lie to you and say these are the figures that we have when it comes to this funding. Indeed, with this funding the idea was to really empower those less privileged youth. Let me just make an example of what I discovered some few days ago. In order for you to be able to apply for the MGE, you had to go through the internet. I tried it myself and discovered


that it was difficult to get an application form; and I went back to the department to ask about this difficulty of accessing the application forms. I was told that the application forms have been put on hold for three months because they were loading new systems. They said they discovered that the people who had access to the funding were people who had access to internet. Therefore, even the form itself was not biased towards the targeted group. It was a strict form that asked for many things for the applicant to be assisted. Therefore, the new form that they were loading had changed and was completely new. This means then that the 5 million that we committed – Currently I do not have a figure. Maybe next time I can get it for you from the department and give it to you in a written form. Thank you very much, hon Chair.



Question 94:


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We move on to the question which was put by the hon Ngwenya. I have now been instructed that that question will be taken care of by the hon Mokwele. That is question number ... [Interjections.] No, my ... no ... Okay! No, I read Tebogo Mokwele and you are right, it says that the hon Shabangu will

... [Inaudible.] my apologies. Hon Deputy Minister, the question is Question 94.




USEKELA MPHATHISWA WEZOBUGCISA NENKCUBEKO: Mandibulele kwakhona Sihlalo. [Thank you, once again Chairperson.]





The Department of Arts and Culture annually supports the hosting of the Go West! Music Festival, a provincial flagship programme of the Gauteng Department of Sports, Arts Culture and Recreation, held every September in Randfontein. However, application for Mzansi Golden Economy, MGE, funding from the West Rand and Tshwane in particular have been minimal and the department is planning to engage with the Gauteng province to host dedicated MGE road shows in these municipalities for the 2018-19 financial year. As much as the department has a national focus, we however support any request from any particular locality in the country. Such requests are considered within the context and parameters of its mandate and availability of resources. I asked the department just to identify for me the townships that fall under that municipality,



As a person who comes from a very rural province, the Free State, then I was given those townships this morning and I must say to this House here today that I was not happy with the report that I was given because if you say Mohlakeng, Mogale City and others I felt


that it cannot just be in Randfontein. That means we will have to go deeper. So it shows that indeed there is a lot of work that ... but what I am happy about is the fact that when I spoke to the member there I said, please give us more names of places that you think we need to go to. So these will also help us when we go on road shows and teach or inform our communities on how then to access funding in order for us to be able then to go to these areas and empower our communities. I thank you Chair.



Mr M M CHABANGU: Ma’am, thank you Mama for running the programme very well. My simple question is, Deputy Minister, townships in this country continue to be neglected by your department but the majority of great artists and musicians this country has produced have emerged from the townships of South Africa. Still to date there are many talented artists and musicians who simply do not have the opportunity to showcase and develop their skills especially young people. What needs to change so that the young creatives of our country are able to develop and make a living from their talents?

And how does your department plan to assist with this especially those that come from the rural areas? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, thank you sir, indeed as I have indicated that there are some challenges especially


when it comes to our support for our artists but I must say that Members of Parliament, maybe I understand and know that as a department we have a White Paper on Arts and Culture where then we are trying to empower the individuals within this environment. I was addressing the artists, singers, fine artists, actors and every one a few months ago where then most of these challenges that you are raising were raised by them. Hence I am saying from that time then we are in contact with them and then we also have structures that they themselves have appointed in order for them then to be able to meet with us but I must say, hon member, the specific area that you spoke about, the West Rand, is the one that I felt that we have not done enough as the department hence we are going to focus on that area. I thank you.



Question 91:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the department supports more than 14 training incubators with the intention of laying the groundwork for the sustainability of arts organisations and cultural enterprises. The programme supports these incubators through the public entity playhouses and also through arts organisations in the following areas: theatre, music, fashion, film and TV, and also arts and media.


In addition, it is for the first time this year that the department has had a target on the annual performance plan support for the National Arts Council, as well as support for Professional Arts Projects. I think that that is how we respond to this question.





Moh T K MAMPURU: Ke leboga karabo yeo Tona a mphilego yona. E re ke le fe mohlala, kua ke tšwago gona Limpopo re batho ba go rata go bina. Se ke ratago go mmotšiša sona ke gore naa ba bona dipoelo ka thušo ya mašeleng ao ba a fago dihlophahlophana tšeo ka gore le ge batho ba ka bobona kua magaeng ba leka go ithuša ka go ya kgorong go kgopela mašeleng, ga ba hwetše thušo, ba botšwa gore ba ye go “Lottery”, gomme se se ba tšea nako ye telele gore ba kgone go tšwela pele. Ke nyaka go tseba gore go na le se ba se dirago naa? Go na le dipoelo naa? Ge go se bjalo, ke matsapa afe ao ba ka a tšeago gore batho ba ba kgone go tšwela pele.







a leboha.



Ke rata hore re a bona moo tswelopele e leng teng le moo e leng siyo, haholoholo jwang ho ba binang le ho ba difeshene ba mahaeng;


empa ke nahana hore kgaello e ka lehlakoreng la rona hobane re tshwanetse hore re ba kgothatse ka tsela ya hore re be le seo re ba fang sona, empa moo re haellang teng ke hobane ha re bafe tsebo ya hore jwalokaha ba bina, jwalokaha ba tantsha kapa ba le kahare ho di indaseteri tsa difilimi jwalojwalo. Ba etsa jwang hore ba kgone ho fumana thuso ho rona.



Ke kahoo ke reng selemong sena seo re leng ho sona honajwale re ile mahaeng e le ha re bona bofokodi boo ba rona, ya ba re dula fatshe re tla ka manane re re ha re tsepamiseng maikutlo a rona mahaeng. Re bone hore na mahaeng re thusa jwang.



Kaha ke na le wena, ke a tiisa ke a hlapanya hobane ke a tseba hore wena o motho ya jwang. O tla mpontsha hore ke hokae moo o nahanang hore re ka ya teng re ilo thusa bana bao kapa bona bomme kapa batjha. Re tla be re le teng re thusana le bona. Feela leha ho le jwalo re a bona hore dibakeng tse ding tswelopele yona e teng leha re sa fihlelle seo re neng re nahana hore re ka kgona ho se fihlella. Ke a leboha Modulasetulo.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Through you Chairperson, Deputy Minister, could you please tell this House what was the national cost on your department to mentor these organisations, and which of these


organisations have been able to sustain themselves in the long term? How many are running a profitable organisation, and how many of them are indicative of a growing and profitable organisation in the long term? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: We have an umbrella body in the arts and creative environment which is called Cultural Industries Growth Strategy, CIGS, - I am just looking for a full name because I’ve got lot of papers here – which is responsible for running those programmes and also those individuals you have referred to.



For this current financial year, we gave them an amount of


R5 million for them to be able to assist our artists. Each and every year they do come back to us to account like in the previous financial year. This year, since it is the month of April, we are still awaiting them to account on how many artists they’ve assisted.



We also want to know whether was the money enough or too much and therefore we need to make some cuts somewhere and whether do they need more money? All I’m saying is that we did give CIGS, an umbrella body for the artists, an amount of R5 million to utilise on the artists.




Moh T J MOKWELE: Potso e ke ratang go e botsa Motlatsatona ke gore, ke kopa gore o bue nnete fela mo bathing ba Aforeka Borwa ...





... and to the artists out there in terms of your mentoring, please, I’m appealing to you not tell us about the programmes and your plans, but rather tell us about what is it that your department is doing for those arts and cultural groups that are in the most rural areas?



Minister, it cannot be correct for us to always tell you about what it is that you’re supposed to be doing in your department. We know the artists because we are staying with them, and therefore, we assume that in each and every province you have the departments and the MECs that are responsible for arts and culture, though they might not be called arts and culture as per individual province.



This means that those departments are having a link to your office. Therefore, at your disposal, you might be having something that will inform us that for instance, in the North West, in Moruleng Village, you have assisted or you are mentoring a certain group, and how much you have spent to assist such a group. Also, in Pitsedisulejang, you


can reveal about the group that you are mentoring and how you have assisted the group to grow.



But now, Minister, it saddens us that you’ve just came here to tell us still, about the programmes and the plans of your department. Can you please tell us or highlight two or three artist that you have mentored in different provinces, which are now successful, not because of Mabala Noise or any other assistance, but by the Department of Arts and Culture? Even if you cannot tell us about the figures because we know that you might not be having them with you now ...





... ba ganne go mpha ya Brandford.







Modulasetulo. Ngwanaka nna ke hodile o se ka mpona e ka ke monyane. Ho haufinyane moo ke yang, ho hole moo ke tswang, maka ha se ntho yaka. Ke Mme ya buang nnete hampe.



Ke batla ho o bolella fela hore...[Kenohanong.] ...akere ntlha eo le yona e ne e le karolo ya potso hore ebe ke bolellwa ka maka le


nnete. Ke Mme wa thapelo ke bua dinnete feela. Mamela ngwanaka, setho se hlomphehang, setho se hlomphehang, setho se hlomphehang!



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, Deputy Minister! Can you please take your seat, Deputy Minister! Yes ma’am, you are on your feet!



Ms T J MOKWELE: The Deputy Minister must not use ageism here. I am not your child, mama! If I can tell you how old I am you’ll be shocked. I’m very old. So, don’t use your age to determine how old I am. You and I are in the same Whatsapp group. Therefore, we are colleagues. So, please, I’m not your child! Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele ... [Interjections.]






The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, please take your seat! Hon Mokwele, you have made your point! Hon Deputy Minister, please do not refer to members of the House as your children; they are hon members! Please proceed and address them through me, please!







Modulasetulo. Ha ke sa hopola le potso hore e ne e reng.





But what I can say hon member is that, as you have said, maybe I can mention one or two rural areas that we have assisted the young and upcoming youth. Recently, I was in a place called Platfontein, it is in the Northern Cape province.................................................................................... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, can you allow the speaker to speak!



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: I was in Platfontein, in the Northern Cape, where we had a school’s programmes in which young groups of school musicians were doing some dancing and we were a part of that programme. We then gave them some money for what they were doing.



Also, in the Smithfield and Koffiefontein rural areas in the Free State, I think that hon Moshodi can attest to that, there’s a group of young people that we gave about R500 000 to boost the work that they are doing on arts. Also, they are drawing people’s faces and


are doing all sorts of other things. So far, that is all I can think of, but there are a lot of them in other provinces.



Mr C HATTINGH: Through you hon Chair, the Deputy Minister appears to be well informed and can actually be able to explain about lot of different projects in her department. I just would like to know from the Deputy Minister, what would she regard as the most successful collaborative project driven by the department in terms of attendance, job creation and value for money?



In other words, what is your flagship project which you would like to show off in terms of what you are doing? Secondly and linked to that is the fact that it is obvious that not everything is successful. Where would you then regard your difficulties and what are your problematic types of collaborative projects that you experience in rolling out these projects? Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, it sounds like a new question, but I’m leaving it to you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: I prefer to respond to the last question on the collaborated project that we have in Mpumalanga at mama Esther Mahlangu’s place which I think is a success. The


collaboration is done by our department, the Department of Tourism and the Department of Higher Education and Training that we have drawn in because of the fact that we are intending to build an art centre which we would like to convert to arts academy at a later stage. All the departments that I have mentioned are part of the process of building this beautiful structure.



We also have many business people like BMW who has a buy-in this project. Three weeks ago, they’ve informed me that they would also like to play a part in some of the projects that we intend doing as the department. Therefore, they would like the department to let them be involved in some of these projects. So, I see that as a very successful bid especially for tourism, when it comes to the issues of successful projects that we have as the department. I thank you, Chair.



Question 59:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the restoration of the Taung Skull Heritage Site is managed by the North West Department of Rural, Environment and Agricultural Development. The information was sought from the provincial Department of Rural Economic and Agricultural Development and the department indicates that the following funds have been used by the North West Province


for the restoration of this site: for the 2014/15 financial year, R45 241 354 million, 2015/16 financial year, R33 724 981, 2016/17 financial year, R34 731 84341 million, 2017/18 financial year, R33 million.



The provincial Department of Rural Economic And Agriculture Development indicates that the following amounts have been appropriated in the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF period. We can also note that the expenditure is inclusive of architectural quantity survey and management fees for the specialised assigned to approve the project list: 2018/19 financial year,

R33 19 2033 million, 2019/20 R33 million, 2020/21 financial year, R33 million and 2021/22 financial year, R33 million. The provincial department of rural economic and agricultural development indicated that the project will be completed in the 2021/22 financial year.

That is how far I can go.



Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, this is really shocking and you coming from the North West Province would agree with me noting that the Taung Heritage Site was designated as a National Heritage Site in 2002; and became inscribed on the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, UNESCO world heritage list in 2005. It is one of only eight other world heritage sites in South


Africa alongside the likes of Robben Island, Mapungubwe and the Drakensburg. We hear about these millions but if you google it, you can read the negative experiences of people going there; the lapidated buildings; cannot find the place; no signage – nothing; toilets are locked.



I mean this is a national heritage site. Certainly your department must have a responsibility. Would you say of the enormous amounts that you have mentioned up to this stage, the future is promises and we know what comes to promises like that? Would you say that value for money was derived out of the investment of millions of public money through the years? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I think that when I responded, I indicated that this heritage site is a world heritage site and it is not under the Department of Arts and Culture. It is under the Department of Rural, Economic and Agricultural Development in the North West Province. At national level, it is under the Department of Environmental Affairs.



When I enquired why it was under the Department of Environmental Affairs, it was said that when this convention was taking place then, the Department of Arts and Culture was combined with the


Department of Science and Technology. So, the department which was seen as the correct department then to manage this was the Department of Environmental Affairs. Therefore, it would be difficult for me to respond about monies here because they don’t have anything to do with us but I saw it correct to come and bring the information here. I thank you very much Chair.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, you know it’s heartbreaking to expect the executives to give us responses and then they opt to put the blame on each other. I assume that every Wednesday if not every Monday, members of Cabinet do meet to check their programmes and their work. Wasn’t it important that as a member of the executive, take responsibility because this heritage site was allocated or was the responsibility of another department.



Since you have been the Deputy Minister, have you checked what really transpired to Taung Skull Heritage Site? As you say that it is not your responsibility it means that as the executive you are operating in silos. You are doing your own thing - Ms Naledi is doing her own thing - Mr ... [Inaudible.] ...                       is doing her own thing, everybody does as they deem fit but at the end public funds gets to be misused by your department.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have not put your question.









Ms T J MOKWELE: I haven’t






Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, I am actually commenting to the Deputy Minister, she will respond to the comment that I am making that are we wasting money as the departments ...





Gore fa madi a filwe lefapha le le rileng, ...





... another sister department can’t know what is happening on the side of that department. What is it that you are doing in terms of intergovernmental relations? Are you not talking to each other as Cabinet Ministers, you know ... [Interjections.]







Moh. T J MOKWELE: Le re tlhabisa kgala bagaetso.






The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, what I can indicate is that the Cabinet although I am not sure when; maybe after this I will get the information of when, but the Cabinet has since taken the decision to reverse this responsibility from Department of Environmental Affairs to ourselves. The department is in the process of trying to effect the Cabinet’s decision. I am sure in the next financial year we will be taking the responsibility for this.



Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Deputy Minister in 1924 there was this wonderful discovery that made in Taung which was called the Taung Child skull. You are correct that it is not a national heritage site but a world heritage site. Having said that, since you alluded to the fact that this is not even a national heritage site but a world heritage site; there are funds that have been allocated and spent on the project. My question relates to the fact that this discovery was


made in our country and we must pride ourselves for it as South Africans. My question is; what is it that we have done as government to ensure that there is value for money in the project so far that has been spent? I thank you.





USEKELA MPHATHISWA WEZOBUGCISA NENKCUBEKO: Sihlalo, besele nditshilo ukuba ayiloxanduva leSebe lezobuGcisa neNkcubeko olu.





... Department of Arts and Culture, therefore it is going to be difficult for me to say whether there is value for money because the funding is not from the Department of Arts and Culture but from another department. Therefore, I would like to ask the hon member to write to the Department of Environmental Affairs and get more information because this is how far I can give the information. I thank you Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order members! Members you know I am sitting here and it is painful. The skull is a few meters from brother’s house. So, I probably should have excused myself from this question. The truth of the matter is that you are whipping the wrong horse. This department is not responsible. What we should do is


redirect the question to the relevant department because the Deputy Minister said right at the beginning; and I am not in the habit of defending members but in this particular instance she starts off by saying; this is not even our baby but I felt it polite to come and respond.



This is a Deputy Minister and not a Minister who can march into another Minister who is a colleague and demand answers. So we thank you Deputy Minister that you respected us enough to give us a response. But I think that we should take more interest in this, those of us who personally feel that is too close to home because in fact; when Wits University was refusing with the Taung skull to be repatriated, I took up the fight, lent money from the mining community and therefore we should be really talking about the money that came from the mining community; for their responsibilities, for their Taung as a labour destiny so we will get into it. So, I think we must leave it here Mr Hattingh for the North West and the Cabinet to deal with the matter.



Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, I fully agree with you what you have said but I just want to determine in line with what you have said, was there any money from this project that have flown from that department to the provincial department.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I would not know about it because as I left the North West we were in the process of accessing money from the mining community into the project working with the community of Taung. There had not been any money expended by any government department on the matter. [Interjections.] So, No! No! Order! Let’s move on hon members. We are going to move on to the next question that was put by the hon Dlamini and my instruction is that it will now be the hon Mthimunye who will is taking over of the question.

That is question 92 Deputy Minister.



Question 92:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: House Chairperson, the national Department of Arts and Culture has a working relation with small, medium and micro enterprise, SMMEs, that produce and sell arts and cultural products in order to promote the culture and economic development and sustainability in the industry. The department does so, firstly, by continuing to be part of the national craft and design co-ordinating body, which meets quarterly in order to co-ordinate programmes and activities amongst key government and sector role-players in the area of enterprise development in the craft and design sector. The National Craft and Design Co-ordinating Body, (NCDCB), is chaired by the Department of Small Business Development.


Secondly, the department’s craft development subdirectorate has developed an Annual Performance Plan, APP, 2018-19, which is designed to provide strategic support for capacity-building in the areas of programme designed and production in order to enhance access to both local and international markets to SMMEs in the craft sector.



The department will also host the craft strategic dialogue with a view to coming up with a five-year craft strategy which will also seek to enhance how we harness our cultural heritage for SMMEs development and generation of revenue streams for these SMMEs. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, I must admit I got very intrigued by the responses of the Minister since she stared responding to the questions put to her. The one point I want to pick up on is that of the investment the department is doing with Gogo Esther Mahlangu’s project. I want to think aloud in this particular issue and say as some kind of expanding to the project, not only to consider the arts and culture academy but also to look at some kind of a Ndebele Arts and Culture Museum that will assists young up and coming artist to not only showcase their products, but also to – I know marketing is not your responsibility as a department - establish some kind of a


relations, may be, with the Department of Trade and Industry for instance. Yesterday the President announced the special envoys on economic investment and so on. Does the department plan to make a submission to this special envoy as to attract investments into this particular small business area in terms of trying to fund or to put investment into arts and culture economy in a small business sector, as oppose to big business that many at times you know the barriers for the performality disadvantage to penetrate the industries.

However, do we have plans to make submissions to such people to also attract investment or to lobby for investment into this arts and culture economy in a small-scale in as far as it concerns the small business?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE:                          Hon member, as I have indicated that we are working hand in hand with the Department of Small Business. Some of this submission that you are talking about is not a submission per ser that comes directly from us as individuals but it is a collective submission that comes from the team, that is the Department of Small Business and Development and ourselves. However, I cannot say now where I am seated with regard to what you said about the present establishment of that team whether really we do have submissions that we submitted. I cannot be really sure about that one. However, I know that there is a lot of


programmes that we are working together with the Department of Small Business to effect what we have just said. Thank you Chairperson.





Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Mhlalingaphambili, Sekela Mphathiswa ingathi ndingalebela ndithi ...






... you are hands on.





... kwizinto zeSebe lakho lezeNkcubeko njengokuba ndikuva umane uphendula. Owam umbuzo ungokhuseleko olunikayo apha kweli sebe lakho, ndifuna ukuqonda ukuba ...





... what do you intend to do and to ensure as the Department of Arts and Culture that the products are protected [zikhuselekile] within your department in terms of copyright and intellectual property?





UMPHATHISWA WEZOBUGCISA NENKCUBEKO: Ndiyabulela lungu elihloniphekileyo, undibethe ...





...under the belt ...





... kodwa ke ngenxa yokuba ...





... it is one of our mandate to protect and preserve the arts and culture products, especially the issue of copyright.





Ndiqinisekile ukuba uyayazi into yokuba sinalo Mthetho uphaya kwiSebe lezoRwebo noShishino apho silisebe sidibene neSebe lezeMisebenzi, neSebe lezoRhwebo noShishino kunye neSebe lezoNxibelelwano siye sanegalelo kwiphepha leNgcaciso yoMgaqo-nkqubo kwizinto zobugcisa nenkcubeko, nalapho thina silisebe sithe nqo sifuna ukwenza ingxolo ngokhuseleko olu uthetha ngalo, ingakumbi indaba yamalungelo abo. Besikhe sathetha noSihlalo weNdlu yoWiso- mthetho yeSizwe ukuba ingathi bangayikhawulezisa ukuze sikwazi


ukuyenza ukuze sibakhusele kuba imeko esikuyo ngoku alukho kwaphela ukhuseleko kwicala labo. Enkosi kakhulu.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, the venture capital funds of your department was specifically designed to help small, medium and micro enterprises that sells art and cultural products. How many SMMEs have you been assisted by the venture capital fund since its establishment?








... lungu elihloniphekileyo, ndingathanda ukuthi andifuni ukuphazama xa kusiziwa kwizinto zobalo kuba ...





...it is a criminal offense to lay to Members of Parliament, especially when it comes to statistics.





Ndizama ukuthi ke ndizakucela kuwe ukuba sikunike zona bucal kuba andinazo kule ndawo ndimi kuyo. Andifuni ukuthi “ingathi” kuba andimsebenzisi nam. Ndiza kucela ngokuzithoba ukuba sikuthumelele


yona ecaleni kuba andinawo amanani kule ndawo ndihleli kuyo. Ndiyabulela Sihlalo.





The Chairperson of the NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Minister you are doing very because it is wrong to mislead the House. Therefore, Bravo! Hon members, that was the last supplementary on that question, we move on to the question 7, which was put to the Minister by the hon Londt. Our instructions are that the hon Michalakis will take care of question no 7.



Question 7:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: The seventh question, do I have all the answers?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, question No 7 is the seventh question which was put to the Minister of Arts and Culture for today. But it is an old question which should have been responded to, and was not responded to, that is why it has comeback to the House now for oral response.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I have prepared myself for six questions only. I did not prepare for the


seventh question. I will have to ask my Minister then to respond to that.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, I hate hitting on the wrong people. Therefore, we will see how we deal with the matter of this question again; because it is a question which was previously not responded to, that is why we brought it back. We will follow it up and it shall be responded to. Hon Michalakis, on behalf of the hon Londt.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, thank you very much for that. I would also like to request that the opportunity for us to place these questions on to the oral question paper if they are not replied seems to only come once a year. So, if there is no follow up on this it would mean that we are going to wait for another year for the reply. I am sure that you will assist us in such a way that that does not happen. Thank you, Chairperson.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I can assure you that I will follow it up. Than then says I must thank the Deputy Minister. [Applause.]



Question 85:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the sector is currently developing a plan that would look at sanitation, not only in the Eastern Cape but in the entire country. The challenges of sanitation however, seems to be more acute in the Eastern Cape as well as KwaZulu-Natal. The investigation will take into account, amongst other things: whether there is adequate sanitation, whether there is sanitation at all, what are the safety elements within the sanitation demands, is the sanitation age appropriate etc. This task will be completed by the end of June and indeed will be costed with appropriate timeframes.



So, the response is indeed the national department will work very closely and support the Eastern Cape as well as other provinces in the provision of adequate sanitation. I thank you.



IsiXhosa: 15:07:25


Nks P C SAMKA: Sihlalo, mandiyibulele impendulo kaSekela Mphathiswa kunjalo nje ndiyingqine nento ethi sivile, ngela xesha besise iimpendulo siyile Palamente kwiphondo laseMpuma Koloni, ukuba bachonge i-Arhente yoPhuhliso yaseNgqurha ukukhawulelana neegxaki zogutyulo ezikolweni. Ndibulela ngakumbi xa esithi uSekela Mphathiswa ngenyanga yeSilimela kufuneka wonke lo msebenzi ube sele


uqoshelisiwe. Ndiyabulela Sekela Mphathiswa kakhulu ngelo nyathelo. Enkosi Sihlalo.





The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I would treat that as a comment but to assure the House that we would indeed pay particular urgent attention to this matter. Thank you.



Ms T K MAMPURU: Chairperson, I would the Minister to assist us as the members of the NCOP. When we were in the Eastern Cape trying to understand the conditions of the toilets in schools, the municipality refused that it is their responsibility. In which way does the department understand the role of municipality in terms of assisting the schools as toilets are [Inaudible.]? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the issue of maintenance is really the responsibility of the school. We do rely on the councils in ensuring that they bring piped water to the schools so that the sanitation could be water borne. But to the extend that services have to be provided, there are instances where municipalities do assist in terms of extracting the pits at appropriate times.


What the department has done in consultation with National Treasury is to set aside 10% of the allocation for maintenance purposes; and schools are therefore encouraged to ensure that when they look at the expenditure they also provide adequately for maintenance. Thank you.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy Minister, it sounds like empty promises once again. While we were in the Eastern Cape I personally experienced a school that had not been drained since 2015, faeces was running across the floor and there are huge pit toilets for small children from the age of three have to sit on – even I would fall through those toilets. And at the same period, while we were there, a child drowned in one of those toilets.



So my question to you, Deputy Minister, is that it has been 22 years that the ANC has been promising and promising and promising, and yet our children are drowning in faeces, why don’t you just tell the population that you just don’t care? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, indeed life loss is one too many and we certainly empathise and were shocked by the loss of life. However, this is a critical area. Sanitation cannot be taken lightly; lack of sanitation is a violation of human


rights and dignity of learners as well as educators. And for that particular reason, we are paying particular attention to this element.



What we can assure you is that it is not as a result of the loss of life that we are accelerating the programme, we have been doing so in the past two years, for example, in Mpumalanga we were able to eliminate the challenges of sanitation within a period of one year and this is where the national department supported the provincial department in ensuring that we are able to deliver on time.



The President has committed himself to dealing with this matter, he has demanded a costed plan within 90 days; and this will be provided because the Minister has convened a meeting with all council of education, that is MECs for Education as well as heads responsible for infrastructure. There is an urgency to this particular issue, it is a challenge particularly in the rural areas and as indicated, it seems to persist or the challenge is far greater in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and to an extend in Limpopo. Thank you.





Moh T J MOKWELE: Motlatsatona, go utlwisa botlhoko go bona bana ba bantsho ba ya kwa dikolong tse di se nang ditulo, dibuka,


mantlwanaboithusetso le metsi a go tlhapa matsogo kgotsa a go nwa go thibela lenyora.



Ngwagola re ne re le kwa porofenseng ya Kapa Botlhaba re le NCOP. Sekolo se re buang ka sone gore ngwana o wetse mo ntlwanaboithusetsong ke sengwe sa dikolo tse e leng gore re ne re di etetse re le Palamente, maloko a NCOP le a NA. Re ne ra dira dikatlenegiso go boeteledipele jwa lefapha ...





... both provincial and national. Twelve months later we went back there and the status was still the same.



Whilst we were in the Eastern Cape, the department of Education was delivering chairs, desks and books; and also pretending, together with the municipality, that they are assisting with sanitation.

However, immediately we left for Cape Town, the status quo remained the same.





Jaanong, ke a itse gore o ka se re fe tsholofetso ya maaka kgotsa e e seng ya nnete – fa nka dirisa lefoko le le amogelesegang. A go na


le sengwe se lefapha la gago le se dirang go netefatsa gore mantlwanaboithusetso, segolobogolo a dikolo tse dinnye, ...





... are attended to together with the sister department that is responsible? The money that you are giving to schools for maintenance is not enough. So, can you [Time expired.] Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, indeed it is a matter of great concern. With the regard to the particular school in Bizana that you referred to – to my knowledge and I will certainly check it – the toilets had indeed been replaced and one of the challenges that we face, not only in the Eastern Cape but other provinces, is where you replace a sanitation that is inadequate or inappropriate or unsafe, they do not close the pit [Inaudible.]



The death unfortunately occurred in one of the toilets that had to be closed. And as a matter of utmost urgency, we have instructed all provinces to ensure that where there are replacement toilets, the older toilets must be covered, in other words it must be destroyed and the place must be made safe. So, it’s an urgent matter.


With regard to the issue you raised – and it’s an important issue – of the safety of learners particularly in the primary schools. We would like to share with this hon House that there are approximately 875 000 learners in Grade R. In terms of our system of education and the environment, provision was previously made for learners at the age of six years and above, and not for those under the age of six years and Grade R. All our new schools have age appropriate toilets and one of the things that we are doing with regard to the audit is to ensure that we take into account also the age appropriateness of the sanitation that is provided in schools, not only the new schools but also in the old schools. It is a matter that should and must receive our urgent attention; and amongst the things we have agreed with the MECs for Education is, firstly, to reprioritise the budget in terms of infrastructure for sanitation; secondly, to engage with National Treasury regarding the expenditure. And we can’t do this without having an informed inventory and assessment and audit of the sanitation which leads to three areas: safety, health aspect and maintenance. And the intention is make an informed decision, work closely with provinces, look at all the grants and engage with treasury in terms of reprioritization to deal with this particular matter. Thank you very much.



Question 61:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson and Mr Hattingh, with regard to the information requested, the underexpenditure in terms of 1(a) has been R54,820 million and (b) R387 000 and

R24 million, and that is for the financial year 2015-16.



With regard to the next financial year, it is R461,219 million and then R686,052 million. With regard to part(c), we are in the process of finalising the accounting details, but we certainly can assure you there is a significant improvement from the previous year.



So, with regard to the second part of the question, I think I have comprehensively dealt with the issue of sanitation in my earlier question, but if there is any other aspect that you may wish to raise in the follow-up question, you are welcome to do so. Thank you very much.



Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, I think there is wide appreciation for the sentiments expressed here by the Deputy Minister regarding the urgency of the need for sanitation – proper, safe sanitation – in our schools. However, the ablutions situation is not something that developed overnight. It has been there for years, and it has been growing. In fact, numerous oversight visit reports tabled in this


House and also in the neighbouring National Assembly over the years have highlighted the situation.



The recent casualties, tragic as it is, highlighted this, and I think we can be thankful for the President’s intervention and that he pushed the department to where they now find themselves having to do this assessment and finding the proper funds for it.



I would like to know two things: In view of the recent deaths and also injuries – over a period of time – as it unfolded, what emergency steps were implemented at schools, given the situation had been a growing problem? Secondly, would the Deputy Minister consider disciplinary steps or even more against those officials who are found to be negligent or who didn’t execute their orders in terms of safety at ablution facilities at schools? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, through you to the hon Hattingh: With regard to the issue of disciplinary steps, indeed, it must be considered. For example, the guidelines are very clear that Grade R learners cannot go unaccompanied to toilets. The question is why this learner went to the toilet unaccompanied. So, teachers have a particular responsibility. So does the head of the school. That is one area that has to be investigated.


The second area basically is the responsibility of departments and schools to ensure that where you replace old toilets – community- built toilets – with new toilets, you have a particular responsibility to ensure that the environment is safe. So, that is a matter being investigated. What we are doing as a precautionary measure is to ensure that we make an assessment of where pit latrines have been replaced by new toilets, the Enviro Loos, whether indeed those places are now safe. Much to our dismay, we have discovered there are more than 1 000 such schools where the pit latrines have indeed been replaced by more sophisticated new and safe latrines, but the old latrines still exist in the form that they were before. So, it is a matter where we have directed the provinces to take immediate steps to address it. We are not going to wait for an inventory or audit to take place. That is something we have to deal with urgently because it deals directly with the safety of learners.



Immediate steps are thus being taken in this particular regard, and as I have indicated, we are going to work very closely with the provincial departments, as well as Treasury to address this matter. Thank you very much.


Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, I think it is important to agree with the Deputy Minister that the loss of one life of a child is one life too many. It is regrettable. However, it is also regrettable to grandstand and make political grandstanding on the death of a child in a school toilet.



My take on this matter is that the issue of pit latrines is not only a challenge at schools, and it therefore cannot be the problem of one department because, after school, the same children go to homes that use pit latrines. Therefore, my take is that we need a holistic approach on this matter. The issue of pit latrines must be declared once and for all. We should stop mincing our words. It is actually not acceptable in any society. We need to find a solution to this problem.



Even the ventilated improved pit, VIP, latrine, from where I stand, is a glorified pit latrine. I think as government, we need to take a stand to agree on what should be done about this matter. My thinking is that we need to find a way of maybe finding a borehole solution, for instance – one school, one borehole – and use the borehole water for a water-borne sewerage system. [Interjections.]


I need to get the take of the Deputy Minister on this, as to whether we will consider completely doing away with the VIP or pit latrines and look at a fully-fledged water-borne sewerage system for society at large.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the hon member is, indeed, correct. The realities that exist in our deep rural areas in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal in particular is that homes do have pit latrines, but that does not exonerate the department from providing a safe and healthy environment for our learners. We have taken the decision that we must progressively and rapidly eliminate pit latrines where there is no water-borne provision; in other words, where there is no piped water to the school, then you are basically going to look at the safer alternative, the Enviro Loo.

That has been the norm we have been encouraging, and that has become the reality in many of the areas.



I think the hon member also raises an important point, and we have had this in discussion with the MEC, to say that we cannot only look at sanitation as something separate from health and education. In other words, children must be taught how to use the sanitation. They must be taught about hygiene. As one of the hon members said, the washing of hands is critical. So, we are combining this particular


task and challenge with the other elements of health and wellbeing of the learners, as well as education that is necessary in the use of these facilities. Thank you very much.





MohN P KONI: Modulasetilo, ke utlwa motl Mokwele a re motl Motlatsatona gore ba tswa kwa lefelong le le lengwe, jaanong ke makadiwa ke gore ga a kgone go bua Setswana.





Deputy Minister, I want to check whether your department is planning major budget cuts to the Free State, North West, and Eastern Cape.

If your answer is yes, how is it going to address the major infrastructure backlog, and will it be able to meet the targets it set itself in the Minimum Uniform Norms and Standards for School Infrastructure we’ve discussed?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the member raises a very important point –education, not only in terms of textbooks, etc, but also in terms of infrastructure is of critical importance. We do not want the provinces to be affected by any cuts as a result of austerity measures that might be introduced. We have been arguing for the retention of the allocation for education.


Indeed, where there are matters of this particular nature that require the urgent attention of government and Treasury, there is, I do believe, a case we could make to ensure that we do not compromise in terms of the wellbeing and the safety of our learners.



So, we would argue very strongly for the retention – at least certainly not a reduction – of the allocation to provinces, and not only the provinces that you mentioned, but all provinces that require infrastructure. All provinces do, to some extent, require infrastructure development. Thank you very much.



Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister: From your responses on this question, I don’t want to talk about sanitation, but I want us to talk about underspending because this has been the hallmark of the inefficiency and incompetence – with due respect – of your department.



If you look at your department, it is characterised by underspending. If one looks back several financial years, you have been underspending. The latest now is for a whopping R461 million out of R61 billion allocated by Treasury to your department. So, it is clear ... what is sad about this is that it is the money that


should be put to good use to develop sanitation and build schools for our children, and you are continuously failing.



What are you doing to make sure this is stopped, and what are you doing to ensure that in future every cent allocated to you for infrastructure grants will be allocated? Then, in the next financial year, we would be in a position to show improvement. Ultimately, however, your department is the culprit. The money is there. So, there is a lack of leadership and support staff to ensure that where our schools are concerned ... particularly in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal where there is a dire need for schools, you have failed our children. What is your comment, Deputy Minister?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair and hon member, it is a legitimate concern. We certainly – I think the first part of the question is: What have you been doing about this particular reality? I think first we should understand the context of it.



There hasn’t been underspending in all areas. There has been underspending largely as a result of nonperformance of the implementing agents, the Independent Development Trust, IDT, in the Free State, as well as in Cape Town the COEGA Development Corporation and IDT.


What has the department done about it? The department has literally terminated, ended, the contract, taken it away from the IDT and handed it over to the Development Bank of South Africa, DBSA. We could share with the House that quite incredibly and remarkably, in this quarter, we were able to deliver 16 state-of-the-art schools. If we look at where we were, we were at about 187, and we are now at about 203. We have demanded every second week a report from the implementing agents to ensure that we can oversee and monitor their performance.



Ms T J MOKWELE: So, we are celebrating 16? Sixteen? One-six?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: So, part of the problem has been the nonperformance of implementing agents in that particular area.



With regard to sanitation, for example, we have Mvula Trust that has done remarkably good work. We meet with them too on a regular basis. Just in the past four months, we have met three times already to ensure that if there are any deficits or challenges, we are able to address them. We take this extra step to ensure that we do not have a situation, as we have had in the past, where there is nonperformance.


Chairperson, what I can say is that we have to accept accountability for it. However, at the same time, we should recognise that as a result of interventions, we have certainly seen a dramatic improvement in the performance of the implementing agents. Where they have not performed, we have terminated the contracts and replaced them with more reliable and credible agents.



There is another important element, especially in the Eastern Cape, which is the tendency or proclivity to litigate. You start a project and go into procurement. Immediately, there is an application for an interdict by either the professional bodies or the contractors. It causes a delay of not less than six to nine months in a project. So, you might have R100 million, R200 million, or

R400 million available, but because of the litigation that ensues, even though it is resolved favourably to the department after six or nine months, you cannot now in the face of litigation, where there is an interim order granted, proceed with that.



What we have done out here is to ensure we take meticulous steps to ensure that, in terms of procedures, every single step is being followed so that if there is any potential, any possibility of litigation, we are able to resolve it sooner rather than later. This is the assurance I can give to the House. At the same time, we take


responsibility for underspending, even though it might have occurred in a different province. Thank you very much.



Question 87:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the reply is as follows. The consultative process took place since May 2017 and culminated in a joint session of the Department of Basic Education, Sport and Recreation SA and provincial heads of department in August 2017. Subsequently, a joint Minmac meeting was held on 2 March 2018. Both joint sessions deliberated extensively on the draft agreement.



In addition, the Department of Basic Education and Sport and Recreation SA engaged national federations, school sport code structures, teacher unions, school governing body associations and school governing bodies themselves.



These new amendments in the current agreement include the following. I’m not going to give you an exhaustive list but just highlight a few.



Firstly, a clear demarcation of stakeholder roles was updated to reflect the assignment of role-players from levels one to six. In other words who takes responsibility for provincial events, who


takes responsibility for national events and who takes responsibility for regional or district events;



Secondly, the extended joint national task team and the extended joint provincial task team should include teacher unions and school governing body associations. That was absent in the previous agreement. It is now brought in because of the responsible roles that teacher unions and governing bodies play;



Thirdly, the representation of sport code committees in the school sport co-ordinating committee should be mandatory. In other words, you cannot have the sport code committees sitting at a distance from the Education Department. They have to be part of that particular process. They are brought in and we have made sure that federations ensure that school sport has an associate membership in their structures. Previously we would be able to go to federations only by invitation. We have now directed that we should be part and parcel of their activities, including their core activities; and



Fourthly, Sport and Recreation SA and the Department of Basic Education should establish and cochair a school sport co-ordinating committee, and a communication protocol should be developed so that


the Department of Basic Education and Sport and Recreation SA are able to communicate their planned activities across all levels.



Chair, given the fact that you were in leadership of a province, the difficulty is that you would find that we have the Department of Basic Education here and the Department of Sport there; quite separate portfolios. In provinces, education and sport are not together. Sport is usually with Arts and Culture and therefore there is this disjuncture between sport and education. This is the reason why a Minmac was called with both affected parties being urged to convene so that together they could resolutely develop a new method of communication and improve on the contents of the agreement. Thank you, hon Chair.



Mr D STOCK: Deputy Minister, thanks for the response. As part of the consultation as part of the actual review of the agreement between the two departments, I just want to find out ... The features of an ideal school actually give a reflection as to the types of facilities that need to be included in schools. I’m sure you will agree with me when I say that, as the programme of the building of schools is being rolled out throughout the country in the different provinces, they actually don’t comply with or are uniform in terms of their approach towards the building of the schools and all of


that. In a sense there are still schools that are built today that don’t actually comply with the features of an ideal school.



So, Deputy Minister, I want to find out if, when you are consulting between the different departments, you are already interacting with the provinces to ensure that when they roll out the programme of the building of schools, they comply with the features of an ideal school, so that when by the time that we are ready for the implementation, school sport is included as part of the curriculum and those schools actually comply with all those features.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, this question has three parts to it. The first relates to funding for sport and recreation. What you have is an allocation that is made to the Department of Sport and Recreation which is very, very small but which includes monies or resources that should be made available to Sport and Recreation as an entity or as a portfolio, as well as to Education.



The first task is really to ensure that there is a conversation, an understanding and a synergy between Sport and Recreation as well as the Department of Basic Education. We have achieved that by saying that when you develop in terms of sport and recreation you do so in


consultation with the Department of Basic Education because you have to look at the location of the schools for these amenities and find where it is most appropriate to do so.



The second part of the argument is basically the fact that the bulk or the greater amount of money is allocated through a municipal infrastructure grant, where municipalities are the recipients of the grants, rather than Sport and Recreation or the Department of Basic Education. Therefore, we have urged that a conversation should take place, and indeed is taking place, so that when they have their integrated development plans they should make sure that Education as well as Sport and Recreation are consulted in the provision of amenities.



The third part deals with what is the norm with regard to schools. That should probably be the first part of the question. We say that at least two codes should be provided in each school for boy learners and girl learners. That should be basic. In all our Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, schools and new schools, provision should be made for sporting amenities. We cannot only look at the cognitive development — and I think that’s the question — but we have to look at the holistic and physical development within a school in terms of its physical


wellbeing as well as its athletic and sporting activities. Thank you, Chair.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy Minister, your enthusiasm is commendable and sports is critical to keep our young children off the streets and off drugs. Unfortunately, our past 23 years has not shown a history of that commitment of bringing sports to schools.



My question is, how will you be capacitating the community — that I believe we need to get involved in the schools — by training them and training teachers who, especially in rural areas, have no sport knowledge. They don’t understand sports management and don’t understand how to capacitate the children. So how are you going to train those teachers and community members so that we can ... [Interjections.] Chair, can I be ... I’m being drowned. [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected. Please proceed.



Ms N P KONI: [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, allow the member to conclude. Please proceed.


Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy Minister, how are you going to train the teachers and community members to take on that critical role, especially if we think that they have no sports knowledge, they don’t understand sports management and they don’t know how its to be done? How are you going to do that practically? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I think again there are three parts to this particular question. The first is to recognise that in order to have ... [Interjections.]



Ms N P KONI: [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, please hold. Hon members, hon members, hon Koni! [Interjections.] Hon Koni! Hon Koni, I will not have that behaviour is this House. Please desist! No, no, no, hon members, you will not bring down the level of this House. If you want to discuss anything private please move out. This House will be respectable. So, can we please have order? Deputy Minister, you are on the floor.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the first is to recognise that sport plays an integral part in the holistic development of learners, both in terms of their cognitive and their


physical development. Therefore, the sporting amenities that are provided in schools, as well as sport development, is very central and critical to their full development. We recognise that and I think that is generally accepted as a reality.



The second is really the role of governing bodies and educators. We have been engaging with the unions and inducting governing bodies to tell them that when they look at education it’s not only about cognitive development and it’s not only about the curriculum in terms of academic achievements, but it’s also about other elements. Those elements include: your sport and your social interaction that is necessary to prevent drug and alcohol abuse. So the safety of the learners must be looked at very, very closely.



But I think the hon Koni raised a very important point and that is the matter of social cohesion, because sport is also about social interactions and social cohesion. We cannot escape the reality that there is a lack of inter-racial — if I can put it that way — participation. So when you have your eisteddfods, you see that largely 99% of the participants — that’s about 8 000 in the finals out of some 800 000 participants across the system ... Maybe one per cent, if we are lucky, are non-African. So there’s a problem there.


When you look at your sporting codes, while 12 000 schools participate in football and netball, you hardly have any whites participating in the same league. So, they probably have their own leagues for netball, football and other sporting codes. What we have to do as a country and as a nation is to ensure that there is better integration.



The third is in terms of amenities. We spoke in the earlier part of the question of how we should work with municipalities and Sport and Recreation. I also think that the historically advantaged schools — those that have infrastructure — must be willing — and in fact this is what is happening in Gauteng — to share those amenities with those schools that do not have the amenities.



However, it will take a combined effort of all stakeholders to ensure that we are able to promote the full and holistic development of our learners.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, Minister, we still live in a country where children who attend private schools and former model C schools have access to eight sportfields, swimming pools, gyms and other facilities needed to be healthy and active.


An inability to access these facilities perpetuates inequality and other evils as it means poor children do not have the opportunity to be as healthy as they can be and are always at a disadvantage when trying to become professional athletes.



Instead of partnering with the Department of Sport and Recreation which has failed till now, has your department not considered developing its own sports programme? Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I think it’s a continuum. It basically requires synergy between Sport and Recreation SA, the Department of Basic Education, as well as the provincial departments of Education. So, we certainly have to be much more alive to our responsibility as to what occurs within schools.



As I said earlier, the reality is this huge disparity between schools that are better resourced due to historical reasons — historically white schools — compared to our public schools which are community-based schools that don’t have the amenities. This is something that has to be addressed.


I proposed earlier, without you asking — I probably anticipated or thought about what you were going to raise — the fact that there should be twinning. This is what Gauteng is doing. It is promoting twinning in the best way possible and, indeed, what we are doing and looking at in the amendment to the South African Schools Act is to say that where there are facilities that could indeed be shared, with mutual arrangement and collaboration, these could be shared in a way that is practicable so that access can be provided to those that have been excluded or disadvantaged in the past. Thank you, hon Chair.



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Minister, I have mentioned it before and I agree wholeheartedly with you that it’s all important. Intellectual development is important, cognitive development is important and physical development is important. But you see, if you are the Minister of Education, your primary objective is to see the child progressing intellectually and moving from one class to the next and the next on time — in record time. If you are the Minister of Sport you want to see sport development taking place. So this is a situation of a chicken and egg.



I want to find out from Education — so that we don’t come back here some other day and say education is deteriorating because of the


interference by Sport — what checks and balances have been put in place by Education to ensure that teaching time is not compromised, such that we one day say there is too much sport and there is little time for tuition? For me, if I was the Minister of Education, I will be looking at a situation where children are in class learning ... in terms of maybe increasing the working hours and getting more time to add for sport development. What checks and balances are there to ensure that quality teaching time stays intact? Thanks, Chair.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I’m sure the hon member has heard the maxim, a sound mind and a sound body. Indeed, we can’t separate the two. You have got to be healthy to even be able to develop intellectually. So, we pay particular attention to physical education and indeed we have dedicated time within the curriculum for that particular purpose. However, it does not mean that sport in general — which is really an extramural activity which occurs after the teaching and learning time ... I’m not referring to physical education — should basically eat into or erode teaching time.



So, the management of our curriculum itself is on the basis ... and the professional management and leadership at schools must ensure that the curriculum is being implemented, that the areas of learning


are being covered appropriately and, indeed, they should promote sport because sport is an important social dimension for learners. It’s not only about his or her physical development but it’s also about the ability to interact, and to be able to cohere in a manner that promotes this kind of collaboration and unity that we seek to achieve.



So, I will certainly not disregard sport. In my own life experience I would feel that however little I have developed it’s partly through education and partly through sport. It’s a combination of the two. So we are not going to discourage participation in sports but we recognise the value and importance of the curriculum in terms of intellectual and cognitive development, and create the appropriate balance with the appropriate oversight.



The curriculum is crafted in such a way that a principal or a head of department is able to manage the oversight in a very, very easy way because it clearly sets out what the minimum requirements are for the coverage of the curriculum week by week. So, that can be overseen. That does not mean that as you oversee it and you promote intellectual and cognitive development, you should neglect physical development or the opportunity for our learners to participate in sports because that also contributes towards the building of our


nation. Imagine South Africa without Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates. That would be the answer. [Interjections.]



Question 95:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the government is planning to replace schools built with asbestos in phases. Some of the replacement activities in the affected schools are being implemented in the current Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, complete eradication of schools roofed with asbestos will be done by 2030 in terms of the norms. The replacement of partial inappropriate structures which includes schools with asbestos roof is dealt with in line with the timeframes as articulated in the regulations relating to the minimum uniform norms and standards for public schools infrastructure.



The process is being implemented in parallel with the entire infrastructure programme which aims to have all schools reaching optimum functionality in 2030. Chairperson, the good news is that some provinces have taken step of ensuring that they do away with asbestos. As the accelerated schools infrastructure development initiative, ASIDI, programme we are to replace mud schools and schools that are built wholly, fully and entirely of unsafe materials. So, we might have 20 classes of brick and mortar and one


asbestos classroom that does not fall under the Asidi programme. However, what we have asked the provinces to do in terms of our collaboration with them, is to prioritise these particular areas where there are asbestos schools these must be replaced with brick and mortar so that we can look at the safety standards. I do know that Gauteng and the Western Cape are paying particular attention – not to the exclusion of other provinces – to this particular reality.



The Asidi programme for example, has replaced 25 plenty schools in the Western Cape with beautiful state of the art schools - wherever possible if we can through synergy because in the Eastern Cape for example, there are closures and in other provinces. Where there are closures and merges and you have allocated funds, then we would utilise them as a priority to schools with roofs that are of asbestos or classrooms that are made of asbestos. Thank you very much.



Ms N P KONI: Hon Deputy Minister, I think you would agree with me if I were to say that the schools with asbestos were inherited from the apartheid regime and today they are here grandstanding and behaving like those people who would abuse a person when he is still alive and when he dies, they cry the loudest. That is what is transpiring


in this House. Now, ANC inherited these asbestos schools from the apartheid regime and you know how deadly this asbestos can be because it doesn’t only happen in schools but also in mines.



What ANC or your department says is that our people and children must die because we find them in schools and it also mean that there is no future in this country as these children would die young owing to asbestos. To date, you have done nothing about demolishing those schools or getting rid of them. I want you to tell this House and South Africans at large as to why this is not a priority? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed, you are correct. I attended a primary and a high school that was made up of asbestos there was not even a blade of grass in the playing grounds. That is a reality but I visited those schools and both of them are brick and mortar. One is in the North West and the other one is in Gauteng.

What I can tell you about Gauteng - which I have a little more knowledge about – is that there is hardly any left. What the department has done is to prioritise and eliminated – I think one of the hon members has in fact sent me recently a letter of thanks because I intervened on behalf of him in terms of a request to eliminate that.


In the North West for example, there were many asbestos schools. It is hardly in existence, so, to suggest that nothing has been done is very unfair. In fact, what you could say is that asbestos schools have been replaced with state of the art schools which certainly are befitting and are the environment conducive to learning and to which our learners are entitled. We are not suggesting it all that we should delay that or procrastinate it. We want to engage with the provinces and to provinces having infrastructure grant is to say that they prioritise unsafe schools because it is important that you look at the safety of your learner first. That is the priority and in terms of the Council of the Education Minister’s meeting that has been agreed to by all provinces and indeed we do monitor it.

However, it is a challenge that we have to address and address very quickly. Thank you.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Minister, thank you for your response. However, I want to take you back to the Eastern Cape. Last week Sunday - if I am not mistaken – one of the principals from Hlokoma Higher Primary School, in Mdantsane, did send me an SMS saying to me that the class that we were using during our oversight visit was broken into and the thieves or criminals have stolen the projector, television and some educational materials that were stored in that classroom. You know, Deputy Minister, that classroom is roofed with


asbestos. It means that asbestos not only kill our people in terms of infecting them with the disease but also it is an easy way to the criminals ... [Interjections.] I don’t know why Ministers are laughing.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Concentrate on me.



Ms T J MOKWELE: It is as if this is a joke.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no hon Mokwele.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Okay. It is as if this is a joke and it is not a joke that asbestosis pose threat and ...





...         e baka malwetse mo bathong ba rona.





It is not a joke, I cannot laugh for that. Now I’m asking ... [Interjections.] It is up to you, it is not my mother tongue. How you pronounce it is up to you.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, your time for the question, please.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Now, I am asking you, hon Deputy Minister, - I know you are bragging of North West because last year I’ve asked you about North West and I gave you list of schools ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your question, please!



Ms T J MOKWELE: ... of North West, now you are bragging about North West. When are you going to the Eastern Cape, especially to Hlokoma Higher Primary School?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, ma’am. Your time has expired.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the hon member and I might have come from the same province but I have a particular responsibility ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, order! The response is to you, ma’am.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I have a responsibility to the entire country ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ntate (Sir) Mthimunye, leave the hon member. You are on the floor, Sir.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I said whilst we both come from the same province, we do have a responsibility to the entire country. The Eastern Cape, for example, has been the beneficiary of more than 140 state of the art schools. If you go to Bizana, in the Eastern Cape, you will basically be able to see ... [Interjections.] No, I am sorry, not Bizana but Libode, in the Eastern Cape, you will probably be able to see 34 state of the art schools and collectively across the country, I am more than happy to give you a full list of all the state of the art schools, beautiful schools with laboratories, libraries and all facilities over there.



In a sense, one could argue in the same vein that the department is then more partial to the Eastern Cape rather than the other provinces because the biggest beneficiary of the Asidi programme has


been the Eastern Cape where there were mud schools and the second biggest beneficiary has been the Western Cape with 25 schools built and then after the other provinces. It is really a question of need that has been responded to and the view that we take is that - our children irrespective of which province that they are located in schools - will be dealt with. I will be more than happy to refer this particular school to the Member of the Executive Committee, MEC, for education if the hon member could provide me with the details, I will then engage on her behalf with the MEC. Thank you very much.



Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, even from the response of the Deputy Minister – did I hear correctly 2030? The reality is that asbestos infrastructure partially some classes will be with us for many years. If we look at the state of the infrastructure, including what have been discussed a bit earlier today, the sanitation crisis for many years we will not be able to address asbestos and eliminate asbestos entirely from schools and even from our infrastructures. In fact, many of our members here will when they go home tonight to Acacia Park will go into asbestos house but it is properly treated and painted which minimises the risk. [Interjections.] You had your opportunity, give me a chance. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Order, order, order! Order.



Mr C HATTINGH: Will the Deputy Minister – seeing that we will take a long time to eliminate asbestos from our schools – give the assurance that the all exposed asbestos will be properly treated according to the guidelines and if the Deputy Minister cannot give such an undertaking, why not? Is there a deadline where we can say that or else it should be rephrased as soon as possible? Is there a deadline that we can have an assurance that all exposed asbestos in schools are properly treated? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I do not have the technical expertise that the hon member has in relation to treatment of asbestos. I know potentially that it is harmful and indeed if treatment has to occur then it should. What I can assure the hon member is that I will look closely into the matter so that we could deal with it. Whilst 2030 is given as an outer year, we are not telling provinces, please, you can do that in 10 years time. We are telling them that these are unsafe schools, built out of unsafe materials prioritise that in your budget. As I have indicated earlier, that even where there is possibilities in terms of utilising Asidi resources where certain instances permit where there were closures and rationalisation is taking place, we have targeted


those schools that are made of unsafe material. However, I would certainly take up the matter that you raised with regard to the treatment of asbestos. I don’t have technical knowledge in this regard but I certainly would raise it with the experts within the department. Thank you very much.



Question 75:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, with regard to 1(a), the nonavailiblity of piped, potable water is 7 171 – that means the schools that don’t have running water to them. Inadequate ablution facilities, and again, it’s linked to piped water over there, will be 5 779. No electricity – that is, where there is no electrical current – 220. That would mean that there is solar energy in those particular schools. No security – 1 048, and no access control, 125.



The department has provided rainwater harvesting to the schools and, in appropriate circumstances, boreholes. The audited sanitation plan, which the department is currently developing, is to confirm the number of schools with a lack of adequate ablution facilities, and 220 schools without electricity are under implementation. That should be completed by the end of the financial year. What I can tell the honourable House is that those schools there do have solar


energy. However, we are trying to give them a source of electrical current.



A total of 1 048 schools do not have proper security measures, that is, appropriate fencing, and 145 schools will be provided with fences in the current financial year. The excess will be phased in over the outer years. Thank you, hon Chair.



Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, I want to start with a question, upfront, after which I will explain it further: Why don’t you fix this? Why doesn’t your department fix it?



While those appalling conditions, which you have explained, remain for now – and you even have the numbers, although I don’t know whether you have quantified them yet – your department keeps on underspending. Then, what happens is that the money returns to National Treasury and because you can’t spend the money that is allocated to you, your future allocations are cut. There is now a massive, R3,6 billion budget cut on school infrastructure.



Mister Deputy Minister, your department and you yourself, are failing South Africa. You are failing the children of this country.


I want to know from you: What are you going to do about it, and by when? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, if we were failing the children of South Africa, we would not have been able to put 25 state-of-the-art schools into areas of the Western Cape that the Western Cape government was unable to do for more than 20 years. This is the result of an intervention by this government.



Furthermore, I have provided an explanation with regard to the reasons for the underexpenditure. In the Eastern Cape, for example, an important factor that one should take into account is that there has been a process of merges and rationalisation. There were schools that had fewer than 30 learners. Other schools, made of mud, had fewer than 20 learners. Does one then build a new, state-of-the-art school for 20 learners, or does one merge and rationalise?



As we speak, more than 1 000 schools in the Eastern Cape have to be rationalised. That’s a huge task. The Western Cape has been doing precisely what the Eastern Cape is doing. They were obliged, basically, to follow procedures because they were over-hasty in doing what they are doing.


I suggest that you take into account the context. You asked the question, and I am responding appropriately, hon member. You said I am failing. I am saying to you perhaps your government has been failing ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, please take your seat. Is that a point of order, hon Labuschagne?



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, hon Chair. I would like to know if the hon Deputy Minister would take a question on the Western Cape’s building programme.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, you have a request, not a point of order. Are you willing to take a question, Deputy Minister?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, hon Chairperson. I am responding to a question, but the tendency of the DA to ask a question when the truth hurts so much is not new. We hear it often. Whenever they don’t want to hear the truth, they ask if they may please ask a question. [Interjections.]



You know, you cannot take about the safety of schools, on the one hand, and then on the other, talk about gang-ridden schools where


nothing is being done. If you have a fence, do you say your school is safe, when people are being shot at at that particular school and no security is being provided?



I am saying to you that we must look at the context. Obviously, the hon member from the Western Cape could say that it is a societal issue, and it’s the area in which it is located. Therefore, the context of any particular issue is highly critical and necessary.

What I’m sharing with you is the fact that we have received the assurance from Treasury that, notwithstanding the fact that monies that have been taken away as a result of underexpenditure will be provided to those particular provinces at the appropriate time. It doesn’t help ... No, that is the assurance we have. Indeed, they have been true to their word, in the past.



So, we have a particular task. We have indicated to you the kind of oversight measures that we have introduced. Certainly, we have to be much more diligent and vigilant in terms of how we undertake our task. I imagine that by feeding 9 200 000 children every day, we are not doing our work. I imagine that every Grade R child, black or white, receives four books free of charge and delivered on time means that we are not doing our task. I imagine if we give

60 million books to our children every year to enhance literacy and


numeracy we are not fulfilling our task. I imagine that the strides we have made are made as a result of inaction, apathy and certainly a lack of interest in our children.



I think the questions you have to ask yourselves are, What have you done to promote reading? What have you, as a public representative, done to assist the child that is at a disadvantage? I thank you, hon Chairperson.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, hon Deputy Minister ...





... ke tlhaga kwa Madikwe, kwa Masepaleng wa Moses Kotane.





In that area, we used to have a very beautiful school, which went by the name Gabonewe High School and Gaolebale Middle School. The

state-of-the-art features you are talking about were provided for by the late Kgosi Manyane Mangope, during the apartheid regime. If you were to go to that school now, you would cry.



Firstly, in terms of infrastructure, pipes are not working, sanitation is blocked, toilets are not working properly, the sports


grounds that we used to play tennis, netball, soccer, cricket, and rugby on, you name it – I am talking about during the apartheid regime – are no longer there. It’s just bush, all over. I am just giving you an example of two schools.



In Mogwase, where I live, we used to have a school called J M Ntsime High School and Mogwase Middle School. Now, Mogwase Middle School is a home for criminals and nyaope boys. You can’t do anything as a teacher or educator at J M Ntsime High School because of the state of the infrastructure.



Hon Deputy Minister, besides building state-of-the-art schools, what measures are you putting in place to assist the schools with infrastructure development and maintenance? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the issue of maintenance is an important issue that has arisen in the past. This is where we have succeeded in persuading Treasury to allow an allocation of 10% of the use of the monies that are provided for infrastructure for the purposes of maintenance. So, that’s the one element. In other words, schools would receive a budget for maintenance.


I think schools and the communities within which schools reside have a particular responsibility. The maintenance of a school is not only the business of government. It is the business of the community itself. They should take ownership of it and basically, we urge communities to do so.



Even in the apartheid years that you talked about, we, as communities, took responsibility for our institutions of learning. Does it mean that as we now have a democratic dispensation, we should move away from that particular responsibility? I do not think so. I think we, the parent community, the teaching community, and the learning community, have a shared responsibility –in terms of the learning community, using the ablution facilities appropriately, and the parent and teaching community, in terms of ensuring there is appropriate maintenance of those facilities. I am arguing for ownership of these institutions of learning by the community and the use of the resources that are allocated for that particular purpose.



State-of-the-art schools are being built. They are therefore put there in the middle of and for the use of the community. Therefore, communities have a particular responsibility. This does not suggest that the departments or government have no responsibility, but I think there should be a partnership where we should take collective


responsibility for matters of public interest, particularly with regard to the education of our children. Thank you, hon Chair.





Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, yikhona ngikukhonzile nje.





Hon Deputy Minister, my follow-up question is on the issue of security. Security personnel, where the department is providing them, are for close to 95% of the schools, only during the day. These are daytime security personnel. When schools are closed, on weekends, public holidays, and in the evenings, they are not there. As a result, in most instances, parents are forced to foot the bill for an extra person to work at night and during the holidays. This, then, defeats the notion of no-fee-paying schools, because the parents are paying.



Deputy Minister, I would like to know: What plans does the department have to ensure that these gaps are filled so that the security personnel is provided 24/7, 365 days a year? One colleague spoke right now about a break-in that occurred during the night at a school in the Eastern Cape. It’s a common trend. It happens all over. Where there is no overnight security personnel, teachers


cannot leave their important stock at school. They are forced to place it elsewhere because of people who come and take it at night. What plans are there to ensure that security is 24/7?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, this is a question of resources, more than anything else. If you look at the education budget itself, ideally, we should have an apportionment of 80%, maximum, for personnel, and 20% for the rest, including books and maintenance, etc.



The reality is that if you go to provinces and examine their budgets, you will find that some provinces spend as much as 87% of their budgets on personnel. Very few resources are left for the rest

– that is, other facilities and amenities that are required in schools.



What the department has done, in consultation with the provinces, is where there are high-risk areas is, basically, to provide the security. However, to be able to do so across the country, 24/7, as you’ve suggested, would be an enormous financial burden. Ideally, if we had the resources, it is something we would like to do. Within the context and constraints of the budget itself, however, we are unable to do so.


So, we aspire to that, once resources become available, and we would, in appropriate circumstances, be providing that kind of security. However, I would be lying or being dishonest if I were to tell you that we are going to do so in each and every school. That is why we urge communities to take ownership of schools.



In the past two weeks, we handed over a school in Marikana, in a very poor community. The principal said that in the entire year, in this very, very poor community, they had not one, single break-in. When we went to Impala Village, where another two state-of-the-art schools had been built, they said in the previous year, they had not had a single burglary. We enquired as to the reason for this, because these schools are surrounded by informal settlements, as it were. They said that learners are there and the communities have taken responsibility for protecting that particular institution.



So, given the fact that we have these constraints, where appropriate, we would certainly ask communities to really assist, mobilise and assist the department in protecting our learning environments. Thank you.



Question 89:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, this is an extremely long response and I what I would try to do is to try and summarise it given the time. Firstly, yes the integrated government relationships do exist and takes place in different forms. Firstly, is that every quarter the Council of Education Ministers that is the Minister, the Deputy Minister, the director-general, the senior management and the MECs of education from the nine provinces together with the heads of departments meet; so that is at one level.



At the second level is at Heads of Education Departments Committee, Hedcom, with the director meets all the heads of the departments or what they are now called superintendents general. At another level there are subcommittees of the Hedcom that some deal with legal, others deal with the curriculum and others deal with other issues. So, that engagement takes place all the time.



In fact we have taken it to another level where we even as a Ministry meet every quarter for the past 10 years, with all district directors across the country which has been a useful platform. We do believe that unless we are able to work and show that kind of synergy between the different levels, we would not be able to work


in a cohesive manner and therefore intergovernmental relations do occur.



So whether is in relation to budget, whether is in relation to curriculum, whether is in relation to policy change or legislation that is this collaboration and co-operation and indeed it is a constitutional and legal imperative for us to have those relevant structures. Thank you very much, hon Chair.



Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Deputy Minister, central to the issue of co- ordination and integrated approach of service delivery between national and provincial government, relates to the provision of school infrastructure such as water, sanitation and electricity, the norms and standards regulation for the school infrastructure states that by 29 November 2016 there must be no school without water, electricity or sanitation and that all schools build from mud and zinc and other inappropriate material must be addressed. It is a well-established fact that the province such as the Eastern Cape is still having schools without stated infrastructure. What mechanisms has the department put in place to ensure that there are consequences for poor service delivery by the Eastern Cape province and other provinces? Thank you, Chairperson.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, where a province fails to fulfil its executive administrative responsibility it can be notified in terms of section 100 to do so. The Minister issues a directive and where it fails to comply then the Minister can basically assume that the executive authority following due process set out in the Constitution.



We have had for an example a situation in the Eastern Cape where we have assumed the executive authority and a good example of how it could basically turnaround for the benefit of the country and the province in terms of its feeding scheme; it had collapsed entirely prior to the intervention. Today the Eastern Cape has perhaps the best feeding scheme in the country. What has occurred is we have decentralise feeding to the schools, empowered women in particular in the communities to prepare and provide them with the education for nutrition and health and ensured that we provide them with utensils and progressively with dedicated spaces.



So, the Eastern Cape today would almost be a shining example of how to provide good feeding to communities. Similarly where there are deficits especially in infrastructure, we have taken over. So, for example in the Eastern Cape, we have taken over some of the functions with regard to the provision of water and sanitation; we


have taken it away from the Department of Public Works and given it to Mvula Trust.



We have done extremely well in Mpumalanga and I do believe we will do extremely well there. I think what we have to do is to be much more vigilant and deal with the matters quite decisively. So, thank you for raising this particularly important matter.



Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, yes the Deputy Minister is an excellent marketer. Once you quit politics I think you should go to marketing specifically for education. The reality of the state of education remains shocking on the output side. Yesterday I read an article which indicated statistically how the expenditure per child has gone down while the expenditure per educator has gone up over the last period of five, six to seven years. I suppose the Deputy Minister read it himself. The reality is that in most of our notorious provinces obviously remains the Eastern Cape which is still suffering with jobs for cash fiasco; the measures stated here by the Deputy Minister is this sufficient? In every comparative international comparison between South African output, the quality of our children’s maths and science where we have children in Grade

5 and 6 who cannot read or write. With regard to the measures that the Deputy Minister has explained to us over the last 10 years; is


that okay or sufficient? Do I get a sense of complacency that has set in? Don’t we need a new thinking of how to establish new partnerships that will actually focus on output and not like the Minister has told us here about so many schools, the quantity, I am talking about how will the department get back to the basics and get back the quality education because we are losing it on that side?

Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I wish that I could repeat that. Hon Chairperson, the hon member says that do we have evidence of improvement? Let us look at the Southern and Eastern Africa Consortium for Monitoring Educational Quality IV, Sacmeq IV; it involves 15 Southern and Eastern countries. South Africa basically was located at number six or number seven in Sacmeq. Last year, the last Sacmeq, the Sacmeq IV, South Africa is now at number three being overtaken only by Mauritius and Malagasy. Right. For these are very small countries. The Sacmeq shows that in terms of literacy and numeracy for Grades 4 and Grade 6, South Africa has achieved across all nine provinces above the mean both in terms of literacy and numeracy that was not the reality in Sacmeq III, II and I and the question is: How is it that it occurred? Now by the way these results were externally assessed and tested even by the researcher whose article you read in the newspaper yesterday, because he was


one of the persons who could not believe that we have made such remarkable progress. However, he asked for it to be reassessed and it was reassessed and indeed it generated the same results. So, the most extraordinary achievement in terms of Sacmeq as well as the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, PIRLS, in terms of maths and science has been South Africa. South Africa has shown the best improvement.



Now I am not suggesting we have achieved excellence. However, I can say with certainty that we are moving away from mediocrity. Why have we done so? We have done so because for the first time and in recent times we have introduced preschool learning to all our learners.

More than 875 000 children go to preschool and we are saying one year is not enough we should have two years. However, Statistics SA says that 92% of all children have had at least one year of preschool learning. That was not the reality a few years ago.



Secondly, we provided reading books for learners free of charge; from Grade R to Grade 9 as I have indicated more than 62 million books are delivered to every child black and white free of charge on time. That certainly makes a huge difference.


Thirdly, just in the past three years, we have established and refurbished more than 4 000 libraries. So, we are looking at literacy and numeracy at the foundation phase and in terms of the assessment and it is all the unions that basically argued against it, but anyway it is going to come back it showed very, very clearly an improved part in terms of literacy and numeracy.



I think if we are focusing in that particular area, the foundation phase, learning, it is not something that occurs in a year or two. You know the foundation phase, the emphasis on the literacy and numeracy was introduced by Minister Naledi Pandor and that is more than 10 years ago and it was launched in the Western Cape by the way.



So, I am saying to you, the fruits of that we are now receiving now. We have got to be persistent about it and as I have indicated, we utilise all resources, all NGOs that can assist are invited to assist because education is really a societal issue and we are committed to ensuring that we enhance the quality of education of all our learners overtime. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Minister. We are moving on to the next question. Deputy Minister, the next three


questions are questions that should have been responded to, but have been brought back into the House. That is Question 4, from the hon Michalakis.



Question 4:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I ‘m just trying to see, the file that has been provided to me does not have those questions, and I’m just trying to see on my iPad if you could give me just 30 seconds for me to do that.






The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Would you mind - I have question five here, Chairperson, if I could do question five and then I would just try immediately after that to try to pick up the next one, Chairperson; or should I go in that particular order?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, can we prioritise question five, is it fine with you?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Yes, Chair.



Question 5:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much hon Chairperson. The reply to it is, currently, only the Western Cape Department of Education advertises vacancies for PL1, all other provincial education departments do not advertise PL1 posts in the Bulletin or Gazette as a regular practice.



This has been the practice in some Provincial Education Departments, PEDs, since around 2008, and the reason for it is the large number of temporary posts; the large number of additional positions; the internal advertisement and the prioritisation that occurs where basically, your additional members who are appropriately qualified would get the first priority as in the case of the Eastern Cape and Limpopo; secondly, those who are the recipients of bursaries in terms of the Funza Lushaka; and thirdly, those temporary teachers.



So that particular priority has been given, and many provinces especially those that have serious challenges with additional staff have embarked on that particular process.



Chairperson, in terms of the issue of the Western Cape, it seeks to do so quarterly and the last advertisement was in February this year. Thank you very much hon Chair.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. From the respond I heard it seems that there is only something happening in the Western Cape. However, I am from the Free State and there is a big problem in my province. Students receiving the Funza Lushaka bursaries don’t know where to go in order to apply for these positions.



The personnel administrative measures determine that these posts need to be advertised. At the current moment we sit with a situation where schools have to go so far as to pay for their own advertisement to get these posts advertised, not all schools can afford it.



My question to the Deputy Minister however is, has this delay to advertise played the role in the ghost educator post saga in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Could the hon member repeat the last part of the question?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Could you just repeat the last part of the question?


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Has the delay in advertising played a role in the ghost educator posts saga in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, no it has not but the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal have a particular problem with additional staff. There were so many surplus teachers and they had to be allocated.



The lady who is sitting out there, Simone will tell you that the national department have asked her to go to KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape and help them with the post provisioning to ensure that there is a matching with competencies. And to also assist in collaboration whether we need to ensure that the surplus teachers are accommodated, because if they are not accommodated, then what you are doing is you are paying for the teacher who is not teaching, and that’s a waste of resources.



Secondly, with regard to your Funza Lushaka Bursary, the province that has done the worse in deployment by the way happens to be the Western Cape compared to the other provinces. So I don’t know they are many things that they do right, but that is one of their weaknesses and we have told them that indeed they have to improve. They have improved quite radically since in the past year.


However, these are the realities and what the province is arguing is quite legitimate, giving the fact that they are so many temps. In Limpopo for an example there was a phenomenon of temporary teachers who were temporary for more than ten years; and you have to basically accommodate them.



So if you advertise a post and you have a temporary teacher within a school for ten years, who is competent in a particular area and that person has to compete with others; basically, how are you going to manage to absorb your temporary teachers?



There are circumstances that could determine that, ideally we would want an advertisement in a Bulletin regularly so that it is an open thing; but there is so much of distortion in terms of those realities that we have to look at mechanisms that have been approved of, in terms of section 6(a) of the advert on vacancies. Thank you very much.



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Minister, like in the case of KwaZulu-Natal you are correct, the post level 1s are not advertised anymore; but in addition to that they have become centralised appointments to the provincial office. It is no longer done at the district level.


What I would like to find out is, is it something that is normal that a teacher will be given an appointment letter by a province and it get overturned by the district. Is it normal?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: It is quite unusual to be honest we have provinces who would basically appoint and the district would overturn. It is a level of authority. We have encourage as the rule and as the norm without regulating on the matter that we should devolve many powers to the districts because they are really at the coalface wherever appropriate the district should make the appointment.



However, where there are circumstances and you know what the challenges were in KwaZulu-Natal, which I don’t have to elaborate – you know that power would invest with the province to ensure that there is a fair and equitable way of managing this particular problem in a transparent way of managing this process.



I’m quite surprise of it, if you can basically provide me with the information I will investigate and certainly revert back to you, hon member. Thank you.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you Deputy Minister. Is there any news on question 4, Written Question No 48, which was not responded to, which is why we are here.



Question 4:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Okay, Chairperson perhaps I could just respond to it from where I’m standing because I have knowledge to what is happening here.



Chairperson, with regard to school realities the norm would be that the department would rely on a snap survey that it is taken to be able to determine the statistics. The department is embarked on a system called the National Learner Unit Record Information and Tracking System, which gives its reliable and accurate data.



What the department then said is, rather than having a snap survey, which is not reliable, which is not verified by heads of department then we should rather rely on the Learner Unit Record Information and Tracking System, LURITS, which gives you credible and reliable information. Because it was the new system there was a delay in providing the data on time because it had to be verified and assessed, and this resulted in a delay.


So the results of the statistics that have now become available are slightly delayed; but certainly much more reliable and much more credible than the data that has extrapolated from a snap survey.

That is the response thank you very much hon Chair.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I wanted to say I have been waiting for the reply for so long that I really didn’t mind waiting a few minutes extra from the Deputy Minister. Thank you Deputy Minister.

Would the Deputy Minister guarantee that since this was now a new system that this sort of delay would not occur again. Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I wish I could provide the guarantee but I’m reasonably certain that as a result of the teething problems that we have had with the introduction, it certainly would not repeat itself. We certainly would ask the department to look very closely to the time factor to ensure that we have no further delays in relation to the release of the results.

Thank you.



Question 6:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, this doesn’t fall within the purview of the national Department of Basic


Education. The provision simply tells us as a matter that is vested with the Department of Social Development. However, some provinces have taken the initiative to provide sanitary towels in certain circumstances and we have encouraged that. I think it’s more appropriate for the question to be put to the respective provincial departments rather than the national department because there is no national norm with regard to the provision of sanitary towels.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, I appreciate that the Deputy Minister has remarked but if he could just please explain how and where do the schools get the money from for the sanitary pads that they have been issuing if it has not been coming through the department. Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I am aware of the fact that the provincial Department of Basic Education have worked with the private sector and through nongovernment organisation before the promotion of this. They also have received support from the Department of Social Development in some measure. So, it is a combination of factors, the private sector and nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, that basically raised funds for that particular purpose, communities within which schools are allocated. There are different methods to do so. Perhaps what one


should look at is to say we should possibly look at the issue for the provision of sanitary towels as a national issue and have discussion with our MECs for education and perhaps provide you with a response after that discussion are held. Thank you.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, I know it is a crisis, the department is struggling so is the government in providing these sanitary towels. Yet your sister department, the Department of Health is able to provide condoms of which the usage thereof is by choice. Will your department together with the MECs in provinces and all stakeholders concerned going to commit yourselves that you are going to legislate the distribution of sanitary towels to schools, public areas and to those who need them most? Are you going to make sure that there is legislation to that effect? All that we want is the commitment by government to legislate distribution of sanitary towels to girl children. Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I have indicated that there is no policy and there is no legislation as we speak but it is a matter that we certainly should take to the Council of Education Ministers for further discussion and then perhaps respond at the appropriate time to the House. Thank you.


Question 97:




reply to hon Mokwele’s question, my department has not requested institutions to withdraw charges against students involved in protest activities with respect to the #FeesMustFall protests. I do not have any powers in terms of the Higher Education Act or any other legislation to intervene or interfere in such internal matters of institutions.



In terms of a withdrawal of a charge, I wish to point out to the hon member that section 6 of the Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1997 indicates that the power to withdraw a charge is vested in the national Director of Public Prosecutions or any person conducting a prosecution, at the instance of the state or any body or person conducting a prosecution under section 8 of that Act.



So, a charge maybe withdrawn before a person pleads to a charge, in which event, the person would not be entitled to verdict of acquittal, in respect of that charge. So, we have not directed, nor can we, by law, direct any university or any other institution to withdraw a charge.


Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair and hon Minister, there are currently hundreds of students throughout the country who are wrongfully arrested and charged in the struggle for free education. One student by the name of Khaya Cekeshe is presently serving an eight-year jail term. Many are now unable to get jobs because of ongoing, dragged out cases and many cannot continue to study because they have been unjustly expelled from their institutions. Government claims to support the call for free education. So, why are you not putting pressure for charges to be withdrawn and for institutions to allow students back to campuses who were criminalised simply for wanting free education?





member did listen to the reply. We do not have any power ... [Interjections.]





you are being responded to.





power in law to direct that charges be withdrawn or that a person be released, once a court has found them guilty or sentenced them. I


think it is regrettable that there are young people who are affected in this way.



However, I believe that the hon member is entirely mistaken to suggest that the ANC government does not support providing bursaries for young people whose families do not have the financial ability to meet such costs. As the hon member knows, this government has introduced higher education bursaries, full grants for fist-year students from this year and this will continue into the future.



So, this government has shown its full commitment to supporting young people who come from families that are poor and unable to meet the costs of higher education. The commitment of the African National Congress is undoubted in this regard.



Mr E MAKUE: Minister, we have been students ourselves and engaged in protest actions. The ANC is obviously not saying that protests should not happen, but I think we have reached a stage where we, as the ANC, are saying that it is important that we consider what could be done to bring stability, so that our students can spend time on improving themselves and building the economy and the prosperity of this country. Minister, what is being done by the Department of


Higher Education to ensure that we have greater stability within higher education?



The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, indeed, it is true that our democracy allows legitimate protests. However, we have said previously that we cannot legitimate the destruction of property, vandalism and threat to others. It is absolutely vital for hon members who uphold the Constitution to uphold the full content of the Bill of Rights.



With respect to what we have done, we have been working very closely with institutions, both colleges as well as universities. We have established joint task teams. The hon members would be aware that this year has proceeded in a very balanced and smooth manner and we are pleased with that. There are problems that we are ironing out.

However, we are pleased that the academic year has begun successfully and we think this is due to the work of all stakeholders, including student leaders who have played a very positive role in this regard. Thank you.





Moh N P KONI: Tona, ke nagana gore o tla dumalana le nna fa ke re dibasari tse o buang ka tsone di ntse di ntshiwa ka tsela e e sa siamang.





You have to be a relative of somebody or a girlfriend of somebody before you are awarded a bursary. Or, the bursary will be allocated to a poor child, but it will only be to show off. Then the people will go to the media and say that they have allocated bursaries to these people. That is what the ANC has been doing. I know you agree with me, but you will not say it here.



What has your department done about all those who have been arrested, all in the cry for free education? What has your department done? Thank you.





TONA YA THUTO E KGOLWANE LE IKATISO: Modulasetilo, nka se ke tsene dilo tsa gore mang o ratana le mang, tseo ga ke di tsene e bile ga ke di itse. Re le puso re dumalane ka gore bana ba ba tswang kwa magaeng ao e leng gore ga ba kgone go duelelwa sekolo le ba batsadi bao e leng gore bobedi ba bone ba amogela madi a kana ka R350 000 ka


ngwaga, ba tlile go tsena yunibesithi kgotsa kholiji ya ikatiso ntle le go duela sepe. Ke seo se diriwang ke puso ya rona.



Fa ke bua ka basari ke bua ka basari e e tswang mo Lefapheng la Thuto e Kgolwane le Ikatiso; ke madi a a yang ko National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, madi ao ga a tsene mo potleng ya moratiwa wa motho yo mongwe; madi ao a ya ko baneng gore ba kgone go ithuta kwa ditheong tsa thuto e kgolwane.



Ke eletsa go bona bana ba ba kwa ditheong tsa thuto e kgolwane ba dira sentle. Sa gore motho o fiwa madi ka gonne o ratana le mang ga se tsa rona; rona re dira tiro ya rona ya go netefatsa gore bana ba ithuta. Ke a leboga.





Mr D STOCK: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, a few days ago, there was a peaceful demonstration in order to hand over a memorandum of grievances to the department. With regard to that peaceful demonstration, I was a bit disturbed ... Hon Chair, can you protect me?





protected, especially against the one next to you.


Mr D STOCK: Thank you. I was saying that there was a peaceful demonstration to hand over a memorandum of grievances to the department. Then, in the social media and widely, in the media, it was reported that it was led by people who took part in the march for free education - some of the leaders of the student organisations of the different institutions of Higher Education. So, are you comfortable to share with us some of the highlights? Have the Minister responded to some of the issues that were raised in that memorandum of grievances? What is it all about? Thank you.





is correct. There is such a memorandum. We are currently processing it and we will respond to those who delivered it to the department. Thank you very much.



Question 82:




matter of mobility and articulation which is the ease of movement from one institution to another in the post school sector is something that has been aspired for from the time that the Higher Education Act 101 of 1997 was passed in Parliament.


We have achieved some success in this matter of mobility and articulation but there are cases in which we deal with this on case by case basis where there maybe challenges, for example one might have studied for a Diploma in Electrical Engineering and in the process of that have done a particular course and then moves into a Bachelor of Technology, BTech, degree at University of Technology and finds aspects of Mathematics course that must be done being repeated from what one has done at the college. So, that might be dealt with on a case by case basis. However, where we can achieve full articulation we have made an attempt to do so.



We have a number of enabling mechanisms that allow us to promote mobility and articulation; this includes legislation members would be aware of such as the National Qualifications Framework Act 67 of 2008, which created the South African Qualifications Authority, SAQA, as well as the guidelines within the articulation policy which we published just at the beginning of 2017.



All members will know of the commitment of our government to the Recognition of Prior Learning and the policies we have adopted in that regard. They would be aware of the accreditation measures that are set out in the SAQA regulations and the various statutory instruments that promote mobility and articulation.


So, all of these are intended, yes, certainly to have that smooth transition from one institution to another but also to ensure that we maintain standards within the post school education and training system and ensure that when person moves there are actually moving into a programme that would enhance the learning they acquired in another institution and ensure that the mobility is indeed successful, for the individual as well as the economy of our country. Thank you very much.



Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Minister, allow me to first express my appreciation of the work that is done by the structures such the Council for Higher Education, especially on the issue of the curriculum of the Bachelor of Laws. I wanted to check whether the Council for Higher Education has reviewed the content of some of the courses that are offered by the higher education sector, especially in determining their relevance in a post-apartheid society and in assisting our nation to advance its developmental agenda and expressed by the National Development Plan? Thank you, Chairperson.





for Higher Education Qualifications and it plays this role of the monitoring and assurance of quality. It is a sub-committee of the Council for Higher Education and it does from time to conduct what


it is called quality audits in institutions to ensure that we eradicate fly by nights inadequate degree programmes where our students are not getting the level of quality of programme that our system should offer. So, the Higher Education Qualification Council, HEQC, through its quality audits and its assurance of programmes offered in the system plays an extremely important role in higher education.



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Minister, there were concerns raised specifically in respect of the depth of the curriculum in the law degrees at the University of Zululand and I think Walter Sisulu University, have those being addressed because they were specific?





been assured by the institutions and the department that the inadequacy is identified by the HEQC are indeed being addressed. I think we all need to appreciate the important role that the HEQC plays because there is nothing works than being given a certificate that doesn’t worth the paper it is written on and so it is vital and absolutely correct that we have bodies in South Africa that can assure us, that when you get a National Senior Certificate and Bachelor of Laws degree that paper on which it is written that degree is of real value out there in the market place and this is


the important role of the HEQC and we will ensure that all our institutions are supported to have the highest quality of curriculum and content available to our young people. Thank you very much.



Ms N P KONI: Minister, we posted a question last year in June on whether your department has any policies or programmes around decolonisation. The department said they didn’t. Despite the importance of decolonisation in the higher education sector has in ending the legacy of colonialism and apartheid in this country as a whole. It is now a year later that we have posted that question and we once again want to ask you as the EFF whether the department has policies or programmes focused on decolonisation in the higher education sector. Thank you, Chairperson.





wasn’t here last year but let me say that we are taking this matter seriously and the department through the former Minister had established a Committee on Higher Education Transformation and part of what it needed to do was to look at the issues of the curriculum and the milieu in our institutions and the degree to which transformation has been embraced and actually implemented within the post school education sector.


So, this is something that we are alert to. We have actually begun to discuss the need for perhaps through the initial work of this committee because we now have their first report. We are looking convening a summit with the range of stakeholders within the system so that we deliberate on how we take this concept into practical utilisation or effect in the system because all of us are using the concept decolonisation but when you actually look at what is it that we mean.



Is it a particular programme? Is it a particular set of lecturers? Is it a set of attacks that are prescribed? Is it the absence of a focus on Africa or on the South? Can we give some definition to what we intend should happen. We think we should have a broad discussion on this and begin to see some action in that regard. In addition, of course universities and colleges have already begun to act. So, I think even yourself if you have a particular thought about what should be happening within the academy because I understand that young people in your party are very busy studying. So, obviously you have practical experience and you will be able to give us aa definition of concrete sense of what is meant by this concept decolonisation because I think we need to be very careful about it becoming rhetoric rather than a realistic transformation of the sector.


I may then say that I think it is not the business of Ministers to set the curriculum of the universities. That would offend academic freedom but certainly we must be concerned about transformation and ensuring that we support it. Thank you, Chairperson.



Question 63:




bit of a detailed reply but I think I will just highlight some of the key issues. Firstly, I should say that we do require from assessments we have done around 100 000 new beds, in the technical and vocal education institutions. So, it’s a big number of accommodation provision that is required. And of course, the primary focus as we begin to consider interventions has to be rural areas where there is very little private accommodation for students in those campuses.



At the moment, in our various campuses, we have around 15,5 000 beds, far below the need that exists. We really need to look at how we address this shortfall. Currently, we do not have the funding to respond to the full 100 000 and we are setting about a partnership programme between ourselves and development finance institutions as well as the private sector because we believe in that triumvirate,


we will be able to respond to the huge accommodation backlog that we have within the TVET sector.



Chairperson, through the discussions we have been having with the Department of Human Settlements as well as the Department of Public Works, we hope that we would be able to identify under utilised and unused state infrastructure for conversion to student accommodation. We are currently in discussion with those departments as well potential private partners for the building of new accommodation infrastructure, thank you very much.



Mr C HATTINGH: That is quite a mix up, hon Chair. I would like to thank the Minister for the response. I think all of us who have been to these colleagues know the desperate need that exists there.

The Ministerial Review Report recommended that university should ideally be providing accommodation for 30 to 50% of contact students on campuses in urban areas where there is available and affordable off campus accommodation and then – and this is the major challenge as the Minister alluded to, 60% to 80% on rural campuses where there is less or inappropriate off campus accommodation.



The Minister referred to partnerships, I presume it’s the triple P, Positive Parenting Program. I would like to know if this is a


solution. It cannot be the whole solution but, are there successes at this stage and do we see the private sector coming to the party and assist in this crisis specifically at TVET colleges and the serious demand for accommodation in those areas. Thank you.





have been successes in so far as provision of new infrastructure particularly at the university level, far less so at the TVET sector level. I think, it’s something we still have to do much more on.



I believe that government would have to provide some funding. At the moment through the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, we don’t have significant resources provided for TVET for accommodation. But this is something that must be done. However, the reason we are looking at alternative models is in South Africa unlike in other systems your development finance institutions have not played a role in this area. We believe there is an opportunity so, we are talking to some of them firstly, because they have experience of delivering large infrastructure projects, secondly, because they have money that we could utilise to provide such infrastructure for young prople, and then we could have arrangements of repayment of the resources which are more amenable to the state and more cost effective.


We also think that through partnerships with the private sector companies in line with the triple p. But even beyond that just collaborative partnerships there could be buildings that are an endowment or donation to an institution particularly given the new approach we want to develop of specialised colleges that we would have skills focus areas that relate to a particular economic sector. All of this, we think establishes the ground for us setting in motion new initiatives which we have not attempted before. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minister,





... a ke go utlwile sentle fa o re ...





...your department together with the stakeholders are trying to assist in terms of getting accommodation for these learners especially of TVET colleges. But, what I can tell you Minister is that there are so many government buildings, be it in the Department of Basic Education, public works that are not being used. Can’t your department in the meantime whilst you don’t have money or you don’t


have resources to avail proper accommodation? Have negotiations with your sister department to make use of those buildings.



Again, hon Minister, much is spent on private properties like hiring of private people to give the students accommodation. If I may check with you, have your department ever negotiated with those people that are providing accommodation to maybe, lease their accommodation for a particular period with less amounts, other than renting on month to month basis, like doing the long-term lease agreement with the department to provide accommodation for learners. Thank you.





Mokwele, as I said, we are in discussion with human settlements as well as with the Department of Public Works which is essentially, the national landlord of South Africa. They appear to be amenable to the idea of providing some buildings for conversion into suitable accommodation for young people.



What I would not want to do is to take an unsuitable building that is not safe, of a poor quality and place young people in it and then we would have a disaster. Even when we succeed in the discussions we are having with public works, we will have to ensure we renovate those buildings appropriately, so that they are suitable


accommodation for our students. Those discussions are underway and I hope we have success. I am sure we will have success out of them.



On the private accommodation, of course, the matter of a lease is decided between etc is decided between landlords and institutions. What we have done as a department is provide a framework and guidelines to institutions indicating to them the type of accommodation, the kind of a lease they should look at and matters of safety as well as to be wary of abuse. Because, there is a lot of abuse by some landlords where students are placed in a very expensive accommodation which is not worthy of that sum that is paid by the institution. All of this has been placed in a form of a guideline that institutions must utilise before they sign any contract with respect to student needs. Thank you, Chair.



Mr E MAKUE: Chair, my question to the Minister is related with the private accommodation. I will confine myself to an environment that I know of which is the area of around the University of Johannesburg and Wits University as well as some parts of Doornfontein where we have many TVET colleges.



Many of the ordinary families in those communities have benefitted by making accommodation available to students. We have had both the


students as well as the people providing the accommodation complaining that the institutions are no longer making the access to students to such accommodation possible. And what we do find is that people have invested in their properties to bring it up to standard to conform to the norms and standards that the department have set. So, that is not a problem. But we now find that these people who have invested are sitting in a situation where no students are allocated to them.



My question therefore would be to what extent we can communicate positive messages to these families that have made their private homes available so that our students can have a comfortable place of a board as well.





it is difficult for me to really respond fully because I am not aware of the exact circumstances that are being referred to. But in terms of the gratitude we should express, I would like to do so here because indeed it is true many families have made their homes available to young people and have helped young people to successfully proceed with their studies. I, myself had a relative young person who was assisted in that way by a family in


Johannesburg. I am aware of what is done in the private space. But I am unable to answer as to why there is a decline of use.



It might be that we have improved as the ANC government our provision of allocation for infrastructure on campuses and more universities are building residences on campus or indeed off campus. So, it might be that as more university residences become available the need to use private residences is reduced. But I will have to have the detail in order to respond more adequately. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Chairperson, mine is a follow up on the issue of guidelines developed by the department in appreciation, in terms of ensuring that those that provide accommodation they comply with the acceptable standards for the accommodation for students. It is one thing to have guidelines and it is another thing to implement those guidelines. I would like to know from the department how do they make sure that those guidelines are adhered to? I am staying in East London and in the Southernwood suburb you see houses that provide accommodation which are really of poor standards. So, we would like to know how do you make sure that those guidelines are adhered to?




primarily by way of monitoring which the department does on a regular basis in discussion with the dean of students or the official responsible for accommodation at the university campuses. But I can assure you that in the six or so weeks I have been in this office people who have a complaint about inadequate accommodation know how to get hold of the Minister.



So, we do monitor, we do meet we do check with institutions but also those who are accommodated, the parents or the students do contact us where there is abuse and we immediately follow through. Thank you very much.



Question 81:




realised that as time proceeds one gets a bit hard of hearing. [Laughter.] So, 81 and 89 starts to sound the same. [Laughter.] Chairperson, I don’t think that there is a duality of norms and standards when implementing the scheme that government has determined of introducing bursaries of free Higher Education for students from poor and working class families. This is being implemented by the department and we are extremely excited that through this programme, young people from families that earn below


R350 000 joint income per annum would be supported by the state to pay their costs at college or university. As government has announced the scheme will be phased in over a five-year period starting with first years in the 2018 academic year. All students on the scheme will sign bursary agreements which include a number of conditions and commitments. In our view the phase in is in line with affordability and our approved enrolment plans as well as based on our negotiations on available funding for the system that we did with Treasury, as well as alert to infrastructure availability in our country and staffing capacity of institutions.



I believe that this is an absolutely excellent intervention by the government. We are working on finalising the conditions that would be associated with the scheme for students because we believe, we must have academic requirements as the National Students Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, and loan scheme does that one must pass a certain number of courses at 50 or above, and that indeed one should succeed in the academic programme in order to continue to be a beneficiary. So, we are looking at what the conditions would be. In fact, I may say that it is the student community that has said that there should be some conditionality such as giving of yourself in public service for a period and so on. All of this is being formulated and will be discussed with the broader stakeholder community before it is


finalised, but I don’t think there’s a duality of norms in this system that we have created. Thank you.



Mr M D MONAKEDI: Hon Chairperson, and thank you to the Minister for the response and indeed for taking those necessary steps to have the doors of learning opened to our people, especially young people of our country. Also for emphasising the responsibility that government has with regard to ensuring that whatever programmes that you as government implement that it contributes towards deepening and broadening social cohesion in our society.



My question is: What further measures is government taking to ensure that more qualifying students are brought on board and are able to benefit from this intervention that government has made so that we are able to foster human sisterhood and human brotherhood amongst our people across the racial divide that has characterised our society for quite some time? I also wanted to ask you about the mechanism with regard to issues of compliance on quality norms and standards, but I think the Minister has responded to that one. My last question is with regard to social dialogue, the interaction with stakeholders that the Minister has referred to. I just want to check as to whether student formations, especially on campuses are going to be taken on board with regard to that particular process of


ensuring that they are part and parcel of the process as it unfolds. Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Monakedi, you have put a [Inaudible.] of question. You are allowed a supplementary question.





you were very generous with the hon member. Nevertheless, let me say that the state continues to support those students who are previous beneficiaries of the National Students Financial Aid Scheme. As has been announced by the government, we will be looking at what further support should be provided by the state. However, for those who are most needy, marginalised and vulnerable, support is now provided in a manner that historically has never been provided before in this country. I think, all congratulations should go to the government for that.



Regarding the matter of the curriculum, I have referred to the Higher Education Quality Council as well as the SA Qualification Authority. I think the matter of norms and standards is a difficult one because courses differ. Science and engineering cannot have ... what we look for is quality. What we look for is that there should be substance in the qualification.


On the matter of social dialogue, indeed students would have to be a part; nothing without them as they say can happen. So I think, Chairperson, we certainly would see students as a key stakeholder as we deliberate on these criteria that will inform the funding policy that we would like to convert into a proper policy framework including the model that has been implemented by government. We also are certain and hope that all parties would do so so that those who have historically provided scholarships and bursaries to young people should continue to do so. We have seen a sudden decline in some private sector bursaries and I think it’s an aspect hon members should give attention to because the state must not be marooned on its own to take all responsibility for historical problem that is a legacy that this government inherited. So, while the government has the responsibility of doing as much as it could, the private sector and foundations have a vital responsibility to be a partner to the state. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chair and Minister, thank you very much. Our technical and vocational education and training colleges, TVet, play a critical role in terms of ensuring that our students have an excellent education and that they can obtain jobs and provide for themselves. However, they need to remain relevant. My question therefore Minister is: What steps is the department taking to ensure


that there is a continual upgrading of both the curriculum and infrastructures at TVet colleges so that we can continue providing a high quality and the industry-related academic qualification? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, it’s not quite a follow up as we were dealing primarily with a fee-free higher education; nevertheless, as the department, we are working very closely with the TVet sector in order to look at curriculum review as well as implementing the lecturer development framework policy that our department has finalised. We are also finalising a policy on the qualifications and curriculum for colleges which will allow them to develop new relevant programmes in a number of scarce- skill domains for which we don’t currently have provision. So the matter of curriculum and programmes is receiving dedicated attention. I was very excited just three weeks ago, to launch a programme that we call Colleges of Specialisation where we will have particular colleges selected to offer 19 artisan-directed programmes, electrical engineering, plumbing, etc. We have worked closely with vocational and professional associations in these skill areas and they, along with employers have committed to take all the young people that would go into these programmes as apprentices. So, the new programme is very exciting and we are piloting it in a few


Tvet colleges, should we succeed and, I believe, we will - we will expand it exponentially. This is a very important intervention where industry, the TVet sector, and the department are working very closely together so that young people are not studying to end up without the opportunity. We link the opportunity at the early stage and have those commitments as young people enter a programme and in order for the colleges to succeed in offering it, we refurbish workshops, we provide the appropriate support to the lecturing staff and we bring in industry partners which will ensure that our staff has the requisite equipment and skills to offer these programmes.

Thank you very much.



Question 72:




personally despise corruption and I take it very seriously the issue of corrupt practices at any institution. We are always willing to consider any confidential or other information that is brought to my attention and substantiated. One of the things that I have become aware of is sometimes there is a lot of gossip about maladministration rather than substance being provided to us. So, where we become aware of alleged maladministration with substantiated information provided, we would then act in terms of the prescripts of the appropriate and relevant legislation.


So, whenever a matter is brought to our attention, of course, in terms of legislation, we have to inform the governance structure first. So, we would not immediately investigate as a department. We would inform the council should there be any such allegations and they then would have to investigate the matter and report to us. Up to this point I have not received any substantive information on alleged malpractice at the Cape Peninsula University of Technology which is the institution that was mentioned to me. This should be if it is indeed a substantive case, should be brought to my attention with substantiated information so that I can then follow the correct administrative processes to have the matter dealt with. I, as a Minister, can intervene in institutions in terms of Chapter 6 of the Higher Education Act if and only if I am convinced that the council of the university has failed to effectively manage and govern the institution. But, as a first instance, whenever there is an allegation, I have to give the council the first touch on the matter. Thank you very much.



Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, yes the Minister lived up to her reputation by referring to her stance on corruption here in the House, a well-established reputation on that issue. I would like to and I thought that actually more if one would look at the widespread media attention that this got that there would have been substantive


evidence at this stage and I am surprised to hear that it is actually not forthcoming and I appreciate that the Minister says that her department will act in terms of the prescripts of legislation. But, if this can be substantiated, it actually goes beyond that. We also get the issue of the involvement or noninvolvement of leadership and management of the institution. Now this is specific but it also goes actually in general and it is something that has been absent in our country for a long time. I do not even want to refer to the issue that is prominent in the news today about redeployment. I would like to know whether the Minister would actually keep the leadership and management accountable in this case and in any such case when substantive information becomes available about fraud and corruption. Thank you.





course one must do so but you must follow the proper procedures. This is very important. I think part of the problem we have is we do not uphold the rule of law. We do not allow processes of law to take their course. The minute there is an allegation we almost assume guilt and I think what we should learn is if there is an allegation, there must be an investigation, should there be proof the thing must go through the law and if the person is found guilty by a court, they must then go to prison and serve a sentence. So, I think we


must learn to allow processes to be pursued because in our country we tend to be judge and jury very quickly.



And so, should substantive information be brought to my attention and I have then directed to the council, if I am dissatisfied by the action that the council might take, I might then step in as provided by the law but I do want to have those processes undertaken because I do not want to have a situation where I doubt the bona fides of the governing bodies before they have the opportunity to actually do work that they must do because they serve on a voluntary basis and many of them are persons of high standing in our society so we must give them the opportunity to resolve those matters and we must also be very wary that if we do not have the proof let us not propound an allegation without substantiating it.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you Minister that was the only supplementary. We move on to Question 84, it was put ... [Interjections.] No ma’am I had not seen your hand ... [Interjections.] no ma’am. Order! Ma’am, I had not seen you. You could say that ... [Inaudible.] at this last moment give it to you. I will but I had not seen that hand ... [Interjections.] No, if you want to avail yourself to the opportunity please do so




Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Mhlalingaphambili, Mphathiswa ndiyakuva kwaye ndibulela into yokuba noxa usandul’ungena kweli sebe umahluko ukhona. Ziyabonakala izinto ozenzayo ezibandakanya into yokuba abafundi babonelelwe ngezinto eziyimfuneko. Ndifuna ukuqonda malunga Ne-Univesiti yezoBugcisa yeNcam yeKapa kuba ndikuvile kwintetho yakho uphendula usithi kukho izakhiwo ezintsha ekuzakubonelelwa ngazo abafundi be-TVET colleges. Mna ndifuna ukuqonda ngezakhiwo ezi zizakwakhiwa, kwi-Univesiti yezoBugcisa yeNcam yeKapa, ukuba ingaba uzakubabonelela nini na abafundi bale univesiti ngazo? Kwakhona, esi sakhiwo sitsha ingaba uzakuqinisekisa njani na ukuba urhwaphilizo alwenzekeki kwaye ukuba luyenzeka uzakwenza njani ngalo. Enkosi.







elihloniphekileyo, mandithi nokuba kutshintshwa umntu obephethe isebe kodwa umsebenzi wona awutshintshi. Umntu omtsha ongenayo uthatha apho kushiywe khona aqhube abheke phambili nomsebenzi. Akukho into yokuba nguNaledi ngoku. Bekuqale ngoMnumzana uBlade, Hlengiwe wenza umsebenzi wakhe, ngoku nguNaledi siyalandelelana, asenzi into entsha.


Xa sisiza kwi Univesiti yezoBugcisa yeNcam yeKapa kufuneka ndixelelwe kakuhle ngokuqhubekayo. Imali yokwakha indawo yokuhlala bayinikiwe. Zonke ii-univesiti ndiye ndazabele imali ngoMatshi ukuze zakhe iindawo yokuhlala yabafundi. Loo nto ndiyiveze nasemaphepheni ukuba nantsi imali esiyinika ii-univesiti ukuba kwakhiwe iindawo zokuhlala ukuze abantwana bethu babenendawo yokuhlala esikolweni.



Ngoko ke ukuthi kukho umntu omoshileyo andiyazi loo nto kuba ayikafiki kum. Into enjalo ukuba ingafika kum ndizakuyihambisa ndiyigqithisela kwibhunga ukuze lona lenze uphando. Izinto aziqali kuMphathiswa, ziqala kwibhunga kuba liyo eliphetheyo ezi-univesiti. Emva koko ukuba andonelenga ngumsebenzi webhunga ndingangena ke ngelo xesha kodwa ngoku andinayo into ehleli etafileni yam ethi nantsi indaba mandigqithisele kwibhunga. Ndiyabulela.



Question 84:


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, the way we manage our higher education institutions is through an approved and funded enrolment plan. This is usually mapped out for five-year period. So, we are currently in the 2014-19 agreed enrolment plan. These plans are developed through consultation with institutions and they are signed off by the Minister of Higher Education and Training a year before implementation begins.


The plan determines what are core Teaching Input Units, and thus the budgets of universities for the period of the enrolment plan.

Universities have to manage their enrolments according to these plans, with a maximum permitted deviation of 2% from their targets. So, they can go above their plan by 2% or below 2%. Any in excess of that number, if they under-enrol of over-enrol, they are penalised financially.



We will be beginning a process of developing a new enrolment plan for the academic period 2020-25, which will determine funding for the 2022-23 to 2027-28 financial years. Universities have to submit their plans by the end of September 2018, taking cognisance of their available resources, including infrastructure and staffing. We will engage with them in the month of November 2018. Thereafter, they will be given an opportunity, depending on our comment and input to revise their plans.



The additional funding that we have provided to students through our new bursary scheme is, as I have said, going to be phased in over a five-year period, beginning with first time entry students into the university system this year. It is our anticipation that 40% of

208 000 spaces available for first-time entering students, FTENs,


will be filled by students who fit the criteria for free higher education. Thank you very much.



Mr D STOCK: Hon Chair, hon Minister, thank you very much for the response. I just want to find out from you: In the past, before we achieved democracy, there were two provinces that did not have institutions of higher learning or education. The ANC-led government made it sure that all provinces have universities, which is a major achievement for the ANC-led government.



Even though the ANC-led government went to that extent, there are still a number of young people that want to reach out to these institutions of higher learning. They want to participate more especially around the announcement on the policy of free education. The number of young people that want to go to universities or institutions of higher learning has actually grown.



So I want to find out from the hon Minister: What is the plan of the ANC-led government in attending to such a situation to deal with that situation of young people?



Ms T J MOKWELE: May I rise on a point of order Chair?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is you point of order, ma’m?



Ms T J MOKWELE: I think the question is not relevant for this House. It is relevant at the ANC because he is referring to the ANC. Maybe in a portfolio at the NEC, the hon Naledi will be able to answer this question. I understand that this government is a multiparty government.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Hon ... [Interjections.] Order members! Order! Order! Order! Hon Mokwele, your point of order is not a recognised point of order because the member said the ANC- led government. [Interjections.] I do not ... [Interjections.] No,no! [Interjections.] Hon Minister, please proceed!





Chairperson. Whatever the comments about the NEC or the conference, it does not take away from the fact that the ANC is the majority and is leading government in our country. Indeed, it is true that enrolment is linked to the size of the system. Thus, the hon member is right to ask whether the system is growing sufficiently to accommodate future aspirations of young people to proceed to post- school education.


I think the biggest innovation we had recently is the White Paper and Policy on Post-|School Education. What it has done is indicate and provide a framework to South Africa of how we would expand provision in our country to accommodate many thousands more who desire post-school education.



The building of the university in Mpumalanga as well as Sol Plaatje University in the Northern Cape should not be all that we do. As the hon member will be aware, we are also intending to add ten more FET colleges and we are in discussion as to the possibility of multi- campus institutions in order to support expansion of the system as enrolment may grow in the future. Indeed, a lot has been done. Much more remains to be done but, hon member, if we are honest, what we should say is that our country has made progress.



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, one understands that you were all ambushed into this free education by the outgoing President. Now, sustainability of this free education is a must. It has to happen. What I would like to find out is: What is the likelihood of this sustainability to jeopardise other programmes of the department, like increasing your intake annually?


We have been talking about the issue of accommodation. I am saying this because you seem to be reflecting a situation where there was no readiness: The plans are still to be put in place; and the guidelines are still to be put in place. I understand that it was an ambush but sustainability is a must. Can it not temper with the other programmes of the department?





the hon member is trying an ambush but he is going to fail dismally. [Laughter.] The programme has funding allocated through the medium term as the hon member would be aware: Through the Budget that was announced this year by the Minister of Finance.



As to sustainability, this is actually what we are working on as we begin to specify a funding policy framework for free higher education. We do agree that sustainability is a must. We believe it is doable. We also think that there are models that haven’t as yet been explored, such as the partnerships I referred to earlier, which I think we have not yet done as much as we could on.



I think the private sector is willing to be a partner it might be in specific skills domains, but it will relieve some of the funding.

So, there are a number of opportunities that we must explore in


order to succeed with respect to this programme. I have no doubt that it was correct for the government to address the needs of the poor and working class people in our country.



They had been denied opportunities for centuries. It was correct that something is done in order to relieve their plight and that they do not continue to suffer from being excluded from the opportunities of higher education. So, the step was indeed a welcome step. Now, my department and the government is the one that has the responsibility to ensure sustainability. We are going to work hard at that. Thank you very much.



Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I rise now on behalf of a number of nursing students in the province that I am privileged to represent. These students have actually increased in the enrolment and they are from the poor and working class. The Minister used the words, “Approved” and “Funded”. However, it is precisely that which is creating a problem for us.



We know that these student nurses have completed the first phase of their studies and they are now in the phase where they have to do their practical training. They complain that they can’t get


placements because the posts that they are looking for are not funded.



What is therefore happening is that we find many of these student nurses loose one year of their life. I am talking here about particular incidents where we know students have qualified, for example, at a nursing college outside of the province that I coming from. The province argues, after I communicated with the MEC, that they do not have sufficient approved and funded posts.



Minister, can you help us so that we can communicate something that is positive to these students who have already now lost time this year? They were meant to have been placed in January for the one- year practical training.





the question might be more appropriately put to the Minister of Health because there is definitely a particular problem in that sector. We are hearing of students graduating as doctors and not being able to find posts to do their two-year community service. So, clearly, there is something wrong with respect to the way the compensation budget is utilised by Health departments in provinces.


I think it will be great if this House, through it select committees, could investigate: What the orgonograms of the various health departments in all the provinces? Does sufficient money go towards professional occupations as contrasted with administrative posts? So, this is something that I think the House should investigate and look at because you can’t have trained professionals sitting at home. Our country cannot afford that.



I think you need a deliberate attention to investigating: What is actually going on? Is it expenditure in areas that can indeed be cut down; or is there another reason for what we are seeing? I think that deliberate attention to this question would assist both the Health department as well as government to correct the situation.





Moh. J MOKWELE: Tona, ke utlwile wena le hon Stock le bua gore puso e e eteletsweng pele ke ANC e kgatalela baagi ba Aforika Borwa.

Jaanong ke batla go go botsa gore goreng kwa Kapa Bokone le sa netefatse gore bašwa ba porofense eo ba kgona go bona tšhono ya go tsweletsa dithuto tsa bona. Fa o ka lebelela, 60% ya bašwa ba porofense ya Kapa Bokone, ba felela ka marematlou. Ba bangwe ga ba fitlhelele marematlou mme ditheo tsa thuto e kgolwane kwa Kapa Bokone ke setheo sa Yunibesithi ya Sol Plaatje le Northern Cape


Rural Tivet College e e leng gore kwa kgaolong ya Namaqua, go nale bana ba ba leng ka fa tlase ga makgolo a mabedi ba eleng gore ba tsena kwa setheong seo. Jaanong jaaka lere le a kgatala jaaka ANC, ke eng se lo se dirang go netefatsa gore ...





... you assist us as EFF, and make education fashionable and a must to our youth. Thank you.



Ms T J MOKWELE: May I rise on a point of order Chair?





indicated, the post-school education policy is a significant intervention in this regard. Part of South Africa’s problems is one where you have a system that was designed for a minority of the population and you have expand it exponentially but also you cannot achieve the levels of massified access to post-school education if you have a typology that is colleges and universities only.



That is where then this entry of community colleges becomes important – of a different guise from the other basic education learning centres we have been used to. I think what the ANC intends with the post-school education and training policy is to


fundamentally alter the way we see and have the post-school system, and to offer a broader range of careers and opportunities to young people in our country.



It is happening already! If only you would open your eyes, you would see that it is indeed happening already, and that it will grow from strength to strength. What we also need to do is ensure that we also change the notion we have of where and what young people should study. Part of South Africa’s problems is that too many young people have been going to universities and we need many more going to the TVET sector because that’s where the work and career opportunities lie and that’s where your economic growth can be supported.



So, I think as we implement this policy of providing a broader range of institutions, wider range of programmes, we will begin to see that effect of a massification of access to education in our country. Having said that, we cannot ever accept the intention to revise our achievements by pretending there is no progress. There has been significant progress in our country. To the student of the EFF who has done so well, as you claim you have done: I wish you to bring me one example of a country with an imperial and colonial history that South Africa had, that has done what this government has done in 24 years. If you can bring me that evidence which has


done better than our country, I will be very happy to see it. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, thank you very much. [Interjections.] Order members! No! Order! Order! Hon Minister, we appreciate that you came in early. You have sat very patiently.

Thank you for coming. We are done with your questions for today. [Applause.] Hon Mokwele, why are you on your feet?



Ms T J MOKWELE: I just want to check with the hon Minister, now that I am going to do the research. I am committing that I am going to do that research and I am going to send it to her. How will you receive it, hon Minister? How must I send it to you? Directly to you?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No! No, no, no, hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, like any other member, you can meet up with ... There is no wall built between Members of Parliament and Minister. If there is an inquiry, it is either you put it through the House or go directly to the Minister. You can walk up to their offices. So, there is no fuss about it. Hon Khawula, why are you on your feet? Hon Khawula, why are you on your feet?





Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ...





No, I just feel for you Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I am fine! [Laughter.]



Mr M KHAWULA: You have been sitting there from two o’clock. The other Presiding Officers are not here. [Laughter.] I am proposing that we give you a rest: We ask the Chief Whip to take your chair and hon Motara to take the position of the Chief Whip.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Khawula.





Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngizwela wena Sihlalo, ngiyakudabukela impela.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, I never take on anything I cannot handle. If I am not able, I do speak out. I am quite capable of finishing off my job today.





Ke a leboga! [Applause]




Hon members, thank you to the Minister. We proceed, hon members, not to the questions which this House put to the Minister of Sport and Recreation.



Question 68:


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, my reply to Question 68 is that as the Minister of Sport and Recreation I have met with the SA Football Association, Safa, and engaged them with their ongoing dispute with the view to resolve it. As the Minister I am aware that South Africa is a signatory to the Olympic Charter and therefore respects the provisions thereof. I am aware that our national federations operate within our jurisdiction as a country and that South Africa has laws that should be respected. As the Minister I have directed Safa to put measures in place to ensure that they will have a proper conference and should need arise I may issue a ministerial directive in terms of section 13 of the National Sport and Recreation Act. I thank you.



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Minister, the concern is in respect of the sour relationships that negatively impact the performance of the national team, Bafana Bafana. Bafana Bafana last performed at least to the expectation when uBaba [Mr] Oliphant was still the president of


Safa. The reason was that there were good relations between Safa and the Premier Soccer League, PSL. Nematandani came in and things started going down because his coming in was very rough, and now it is even worse. For two or three consecutive occasions Bafana Bafana has not qualified for the World Cup. So, the concern is there, hon Minister.



What one would like to know is that even besides the issue of Safa versus Safa, also is the issue in respect of good relations between Safa and the PSL. Is the Minister attending to that?                            The PSL owns players and Safa does not own players. They come from the PSL to Bafana Bafana which is Safa. Is the Minister also handling that party nicely? We know you cannot give detectives, but for the relationships that they are smooth and that there are working relationships to give positive results. Is the Minister doing something? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon member, the issue of relations between Safa and the department, first and foremost as I have responded earlier, is critical because any federation critical for it is to ensure that there is stability in terms of leadership and issues of governance and every other things because that guides them towards carrying out the mandate of what we want to achieve.


The interaction will yield results when they hold proper conference in terms of the processes that they have put forward. That in turn will also flow into how it impacts in terms of the relationships of the bodies under them - one which is the PSL - and how they relate amongst themselves to ensure that whilst they deal with professional sport they also have to take into consideration when it comes to playing for the national team. We are in the process of building these kinds of relations ahead with my interaction and formal engagements with the PSL. I am hopeful that through these engagements we will establish good working relationships moving forward. I thank you.



Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, I have a very much concern as a woman. I want you to tell this House your commitment in protecting the women of South Africa. Do you agree with the SA Football Association showing their support for Danny Jordan who has been accused of raping a woman and their distasteful and appalling suggestion that the woman in question had ulterior motives for opening the case against Mr Jordan? Do you feel that he should be suspended on the basis of these allegations given the veracity therefore and the fact that women in South Africa are raped and harassed on a daily basis? If not, why not? Minister,




... ndicela ungagwegwelezi ungqale apho lifele khona ithole.





The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you hon member for your question. Maybe you will also have to understand that when you have a body like Safa which is governed by certain legislation, as a Minister you also have to respect such. I have had interactions with them. In fact, the interactions themselves have resulted in them coming out to say what is it and what is their leadership in terms of the matter. This is a matter which is before the court and we have full confidence that our court is going to deal with the matter. Critical to it is that whoever would be the victim at the end that would be the person we would be supporting.



We hope that this matter is going to take a proper course. The leadership of Safa have proclaimed what they are saying, but that does not tamper with the processes of our law. Thank you.



Mr M M CHABANGU: Minister, my question why is: Why is Safa not allowing players to take part in the elections stating the fact that they do not qualify in terms of the regional matters? It has been proved beyond any reasonable doubt that former players around the


world can take sport to certain levels, but with us here we are denying them the opportunity to run Safa so that we can qualify to play in the World Cup and let alone to win the regional trophies. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chair, maybe hon members would have to first and foremost understand what Safa stands for and also understand what it means to have a professional soccer league on the side, the relationship between the other work that Safa does in terms of sport development which is different. If you look at what the professional soccer league does and the kind of relationships that they have established with Safa, it is in line with all the kinds of games that are played throughout – be it at Fifa level, regional level or elsewhere where they agree upon fixtures and every other thing. Critical to it is the relationship that get to be established where they have to agree in terms of what and when to release the players, which is a matter that we are going to continuously engage them on and also create a platform for Bafana Bafana to practice and at the same time excel because we cannot afford to have a team that flies our flag and is not doing well.


I am just adding to say that I wish hon members can also commend Banyana Banyana that is doing so well. You don’t really hear people; they always talk about the men’s sport.



Question 65:


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much Chair, my response to Question 65 is ... let me first and foremost emphasise that the investigation has not been abandoned. The department is currently looking at other options to pursue this matter.

Ministerial committees of enquiries such as the one established for the death of spectators at the FNB Stadium usually rely on co- operation of stakeholders to get to the bottom of the root causes and make recommendations on suitable solutions to the identified causes.



In this case, one of the key stakeholders, namely Stadium Management SA, declined to co-operate with the inquiry as inquiries of this nature do not have powers to subpoena. The continuation of the inquiry became untenable in the face of such lack of co-operation, although such a pledge have been made by some other key stakeholders prior to this announcement. Stadium Management SA further filed papers in the High Court opposing the constitution of the inquiry and therefore after due engagement and having taken notice with


other law enforcement agencies, I then decided that it would be prudent to withdraw the ministerial committee of inquiry and review and consider other available legal instruments. I thank you.



Mr W F FABER: Hon Chairperson, through you I thank the Minister. In view of the fact that it is almost two years since the stampede happened without any outcome on this tragic event, is the department doing enough to ensure the safety of spectators and the sport fraternity at major events? We insist that Stadium Management SA should be enforced to do spectator safety awareness before major events.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much once more. Indeed, it is two years after the event has occurred and we agree that it is a long time but we want to make sure that we get into the root of the matter because South Africa is a sport destination. Even if we have done proper work on this matter, we will ensure that we avoid such occurrences in hosting other mega events. Meanwhile, that does not stop us because when there are big events, there are approaches that have to be made to the Department of Police and all other critical role-players. In terms of the existing arrangements, we all have put in place to make sure that we all come together, be it the responsive host and everybody.


As the incident has happened, we still want to dig deeper to ensure that even the families themselves get satisfaction and closure in terms of what happened and also ensure that it does not leave South Africa with egg on the face when it has to bid for further major events. So, we want to clear the ground. We want to find out if it is the responsibility of Stadium Management SA or the person who was hosting that event. We want to make sure that the person who was hosting the event has put every measure in place and has brought together everybody who was part of hosting such an event.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson through you to Minister, has your department had any interaction with the families of those who lost their lives on 29 July 2017 and has it assisted these families in any way? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Well, I would not have that information at the moment because within these few weeks that I have been in office, this is the matter that I have been dealing with. I was looking into the options and doing consultations with various federations and also getting to understand why there was withdrawal of other key stakeholders into the matter. It happened two years ago, but I can only confirm once I find out that information. I don’t have that information now.




Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo ke rata go tlhagisa go Tona gore bangwe ba rona re tsamaya setadiamo. Fa re le kwa teng, ga re dule kwa go dulang batho ba botlhokwa, re dula kwa mang le mang a dulang teng, le fa dikotsi di diragalang gone. Tona, ka mokgwa o o arabang dipotso ka ona, ga go bontshe fa lefapha le na le tharabololo ya go ka boloka matshelo a batho.



Potso ya ka e tshwana le e motl Farber a e boditseng gore, a ga go na mokgwa mongwe o lefapha le ka o dirang le setlamo sa poraefete, bogolosetona setlamo sa pabalesego se se thapilweng ke batsamaisi ba setadiamo gore matshelo a batho a kgone go bolokesega ka botlalo? Ke a leboga.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: We are living in a country that has laws that govern even when we have gatherings which depend on the number of people who are in one place at the same time and therefore, when such matters are brought to our attention, deployment of police officers has to be made. Even when we host matches here in the country, informing the respective law enforcement agencies, which includes the police is the norm in order to assist those who need crowd control measures.


So, it is happening. In this particular incident where something happened and we want to get to understand what really happened, which is what we need to do if we have the opportunity to run, whether it’s an inquiry in whatever form and in what instrument as we are looking into it, we want to understand what happened because there is no report in front of me. I need to get a report where all what happened on the event of that day has been scrutinised but in the events that happened beyond that, we will take every measure because sports people themselves do make contact with police and police stations that are around the venue and take responsibility. This is what we want to ensure happens every time.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much Chair, let me first appreciate the response from the Minister. I am happy that the Minister is saying that the case is not abandoned as we perceived it to be. But in her presentation she is saying that they are exploring other avenues in terms of dealing with the case. It may not be possible that she respond to me here and now but I need to know the reasons that caused those who were doing inquiries to deviate from the course they were taking and explore another avenue. It is important for you as office bearers - as representative of the public, to know that information so that we can be able to explain to the public


what is happening about this case because it has taken long. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you hon members, according to the Sports and Recreation Act, the jurisdiction of the Minister of Sport and Recreation is limited to certain organs within the sporting fraternity. So, as I indicated, Stadium Management SA filed papers in the High Court opposing it and was questioning the actual jurisdiction of the Minister, of which our Sports and Recreation Act does not states as it stands at the moment. This meant that we have to withdraw so that we will be able to explore other mechanisms that would have jurisdiction over the inquiry because we still want to make sure that that inquiry continues.

Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, perhaps the select committee of the NCOP which deals with Sport and Recreation can actually get into this matter because what we are hearing is that Stadium Management SA is challenging the inquiry and I don’t think it is in order in this country. Minister, we must not allow this thing to prolong even more because two years is rather too long for families not to know the cause of their people’s death. It is really not acceptable. The challenge is in your hands as the NCOP. Let me hear


anybody challenging this House as not having any right to go after such an inquiry and find out exactly what has happened and represent people properly.



Question 80:


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the main purpose of the sport in the struggle exhibition is to remember, preserve, celebrate and provide education about South Africa’s lesser known sports history. When we look into the education aspect of it, it serves as a vehicle to educate children about the history of sports in South Africa and its role in the struggle against apartheid. With remembrance, it serves as a memoir – a remembrance for South African adults to begin to gain a full documentary of South Africa’s heritage.



With regard to preserving, it is intended to preserve the past by ensuring access to the historical contribution of sporting heroes and heroines who are still unknown within the context of apartheid and the struggling against it that they should not be forgotten.



The celebratory part is where we honour the heroes and heroines of yesteryears whose sporting achievements weren’t recognised by the society of the day.


So, hon members, we have that exhibition as launched. It is running at the Freedom Park until 4th May. Hon members, if you can take time and visit there, then you will get to understand because we believe that as the department, we need to pay homage to the sport heroes and heroines who have left a legacy of sporting excellence which was never applauded nor recognised.



The sport in the struggle exhibition is a social cohesion contribution whose continuing visibility to South Africans will serve as an educational nation-building platform intended to remind us all to never again go back to a life when segregation became policy and lifestyle. I thank you.





Ms P C SAMKA: Sihlalo, le nkqubo intle kakhulu, ingakumbi xa izakusikhumbuza nangemvelaphi yethu okokuba singobani na kwaye sivelaphi na, iyintoni indima yabo bathe balwa kweli lizwe. Umbuzo olandelayo ke Mphathiswa ngulo: Ingaba isebe eli lakho liza kuqinisekisa njani na ukuba le nkqubo iyafikelela kwilizwe jikelele?





Secondly, what is the sustainability plan moving forward?


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson and thanks to hon member, Samka, indeed, we pride ourselves by having launched this exhibition. From the Freedom Park, there are already sites which it will rotate to so that it is taken deep into areas where it would have not reached or all the people would not be able to reach Freedom Park.



Our intention is that after it has gone through those nodes where there is indication of host museums at the moment who have indicated interest in hosting the exhibition. We are busy debating whether to have our own stand-alone museum or a hall of fame? So, there is a discussion and debate around that. Ultimately, we would want to continue to make sure that it is a symbol that continues to remind South Africans that this is an opportunity to create - an opportunity for our young people and at the same time that this is a uniting sector of our society. Thank you very much.



Ms N P KONI: Minister, sport has always been a key battleground for the struggle in South Africa. The boycott of apartheid in South Africa is key example to this.



The apartheid regime of Israel continues to violate the rights of the palestines and engage in 21st century colonialism. So, Minister,


I am not sure if you will have my answer but I am just trying my luck. Has your department discussed or considered a sporting boycott of apartheid Israel? Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, you are trying your luck. I will leave it to the discretion of the Minister.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, I may share with the hon member that during the Israeli Apartheid Week, IAW, we were part of those contributing to sport in schools in Ladium, which was our formal kind of engagement to be part of such and joining key role-players who have been at the forefront but it is part of the mandate and the resolutions of the ruling party that we support the people of Palestine. Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you raise your hands very late when my quota for four is done.





Ke a le bolelela [I am telling you.]



Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, Minister, I am sure this initiative is a noble one as I hear you and it must be welcome and appreciated. Be


that as it may, you have also indicated that amongst the objectives of this programme is to preserve, remember and exhibit the history of the sports heroes and heroines that are lesser known and pay tribute to those sporting heroes and challenge our children to understand the value of sports and that they can become sports stars in their own right. Now, here is my question: The latest findings of the living conditions survey indicated that in South Africa today, only 34,9% of children play in safe areas. So it means therefore, we have a problem. 65,1 percent of children play in areas that are very unsafe. Those areas are unnecessary for their growth and development to become sport stars. What is it that your department is doing to ensure that recreation facilities ... and that our children play in safe areas that they can also themselves get an opportunity to discover and develop their talent and become sport stars? Thank you, Chairperson.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Magwebu, you are taking a big chance because you are introducing a completely new ... You looking

... No no, you know what you have just done. You have introduced a new question which now deals with safety, children and sporting facilities, instead of dealing with that primary question. Minister, if you have the appetite you can respond.


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I will just respond briefly because it is indeed a new question. As part of sports development, infrastructure is part of the programme that we are driving.

Starting from next week, we will be rolling out a lot of infrastructure in rural areas and townships, which is presenting itself in tackling some of the issues of providing the much needed infrastructure and creating opportunities for our young people to train and be identified because we want to identify talent at an early age and at the same time promoting social cohesion because that infrastructure is going be accessible to schools, communities and all of that.



We can share those kinds of programmes later on. Critical to this exhibition is where it provides the educational aspect so that people should not forget and get into these federations and all of a sudden think that sports has nothing to do with politics, it has everything to do with politics. In South Africa we want to ensure that sports unify people and give equal opportunities and platform in our communities for our young people to work together.



We can also recognise excellence as it unfolds. Thank you very much


Mr D M MONAKEDI: Chairperson, as a direct follow-up, I think to the response that the Minister has just given, I want to check, especially that we do know that there were some sporting codes and activities taking place in Robben Island and some individual personalities ... [Interjections.] Yes, the comrades that were imprisoned in Robben Island were actually the nucleus of what we now call nonracial sport in South Africa.



I want to check as to whether this exhibition that is taking place does include the activities and personalities involved in Robben Island? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: The exhibition itself is continuously growing. It is being developed and if hon members can visit the exhibition, that’s where you would continue to add on and put up those pieces of the history that you would not find in the first one that we put in place. It is big as it is but it is still open for us to feed into it. As it would be moving around, we hope, hon members, that you would also take interest in identifying even those kind of heroes and heroines not only as the actual participants in the sporting codes but those who were administrators moving forward. It is a very interesting exhibition that shares with us before apartheid and now as we grow up to a situation where when


we talk transformation at the moment, we should say to what extent have we moved with transformation and to what extent can we still do more because here are the successes and here are the gaps with regard to the success factors.



We want that to also translate into the actions with regard to the programmes that we do as to how then do what we see in the exhibition translate into what you want to do to take forward sports in South Africa. Thank you.



Question 101:


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chair, in reply to the question, the Department of Sport and Recreation launched the Rural Sport Development Programme in 2016 in conjunction with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the National House of Traditional Leaders, the provincial departments of sport and recreation as well as the national federations.



The main aim of the programme is to revive sport and unearth the talent in the rural areas with special focus on areas that are under the traditional authorities and farming communities. Included in the programme; athletics for boys and girls, football for boys and girls, netball for girls and rugby for girls are the sporting codes.


The programme commenced with two traditional councils at village level with competitions at traditional council level to determine provincial champions to represent the province at the national competition. The inaugural national competitions were held in July 2017 wherein all provinces participated and this programme has assisted in terms of ensuring a close working relationship between government, nongovernmental structures particularly the national house and the provincial houses of traditional leaders as well as traditional councils, revival of sporting culture in the rural areas, affording opportunities for talented athletes to be identified, upskilling of coaches and technical officials and in this regard SA Rugby conducted training for all the coaches during the national competitions.



And the programme is now expanded to five traditional councils for 2018-19 in the province and the competition would only be up to the provincial level for this current financial year which is to ensure that more participation at the lower levels and more focus on training of coaches and technical officials as part of our focus areas. I thank you.



Mr M KHAWULA: Chair ...




... hawu Ngqongqoshe, yilokhu nje kuphela? Akukho okunye? Emalokishini? Lutho nje?





Khulumela embhobhweni.



Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngithi kwase kuba nje ngangenkomo kaXimba mhlonishwa. Yilokhu nje okuncane okungaka kuphela nje enikwenzayo iNingizimu Afrika yonke?





But because you have just referred to only this one programme let me ask on only this one programme you have talked about. I saw in the paper – I am glad you have talked about it - because what I would like to know is, do you ensure that it circulates to all the traditional authorities in the rural areas because what I have observed – at least in Kwazulu-Natal – is that for the past two years the same traditional authorities have been involved year after year. Now, it is a problem then because in Kwazulu-Natal we have got more than 300 traditional authorities.


Now, if out of 300 you are going to have only five, year after year, then it is a problem. It is not maybe doing you any good whereas maybe if you ensure that it circulates maybe it can give you the results you are aspiring for and secondly, how do you also ensure on the issue of selection, I do not know who does the selection of the traditional authorities. How do you ensure the issue of non-party partisanship in selecting those areas? For example, if you are Khawula then you are not selected because your area will be presumed to be something else. How do you ensure that it is objective in terms of the selection?



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: ... [Inaudible.] Chair once more, firstly, as I indicated that this only started in 2016 and we are still rolling it out, secondly, it is growing but its growth is of course limited to the availability of the budget and thirdly, we are not doing it alone as the department so we do not go down to traditional leadership and select. We respect the houses both at national and provincial level and also the traditional councils.

Well hon member...





... yiya ezinkosini ubuze kuzo ukuze ufumane kakuhle ukuba iqhuba kanjani.




But it will grow depending on the budget but we also hope if it works well and in terms of the lessons of where it happens because in the other areas we are also looking at other federations that continue to mobilise clubs around codes that are played and so it is not the only thing that is happening within provinces and within your traditional leadership. Thank you very much.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you very much hon Minister, I just want to check with you whether your department is able assist the rural sporting codes in terms of affiliating to federations. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Well, it is the federations themselves that assist clubs to affiliate to them, not us. We give money to federations and we give them a mandate. We encourage them to mobilise but also through education in form of educating our communities and through you hon members, that this is what we want to do. We want to ensure that federations reach out to our communities, register the clubs but it also depends on the muscle in terms of the funding that they have because the reality is that you cannot reach every corner but also what we seek to encourage in our approach moving forward, hon Chair, is to have a focussed approach so you do not have as we have the 16 codes that we can can have all


16 codes in each of the provinces but we can have a focussed approach because if an area is a rugby-active place we are able therefore to encourage young people and have as many clubs that would then be assisted or supported to be part of such a federation rather then reaching out to everything or starting even where they would never have been such an activity. Thank you.



Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, to you Minister, I would like to know that with the absence of coaches of sport managements and sport equipment that is in existence. How will you address the funding of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, Minister? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I think Chair when I come for the presentation on the annual performance plan, APP; I think the question will be more relevant, where I will tabulate all of that but I can share with the members that in the APP there is an area where we are trying to address that. Thank you.



Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chair, Minister, you have just said now that part of what you do is to look at areas and see what sport is popular or is familiar in that area and then you start assisting to join federations and that they can also develop that sport. Now here


is my question, for instance I will give an example which I think you will relate to, Mdantsane for instance is a boxing Mecca of South Africa, what is it that you are doing in the same vein that this is what you do? Boxing is there, what is it you are doing to make sure that the youngsters are then assisted by your department to become boxers because there is a lot of champions that are there sitting idle that can help them. Your response please, thank you Chair.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: It is correct Chair that Mdantsane is a boxing Mecca and as I am indicating that perhaps when we come for the APPs we will be able to outline what it is that we are doing but critical to this is, for instance, just as I was coming here I was coming from a portfolio committee meeting where Boxing South Africa was presenting its annual performance plan and in the presentation of their annual performance plan the reality that is there is that if you look into the current situation is that we have fewer people who called promoters who are at the level of being there so it is some work that we still need to do to make Boxing South Africa talk to us to say, what is it that they are doing and where do they think we have to support them because ours is a long-term one where we are looking at developing and identifying the talent and developing it but if you do not have


those promoters and those administrators at the highest level that are not developed, it remains a challenge. It is a matter between ourselves that we are looking at to how in terms of moving forward and us supporting Boxing South Africa we can ensure that we can prioritise to have those kind of administrators in our midst and promoters and coaches and all of that to ensure that we can assist our young and talented people.



Question 100:


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chair, as the Minister of Sport and Recreation, I think Minister Naledi Pandor was very helpful to indicate to hon members that we are not coming in to start new departments. I will be building upon the legacy left by my predecessors on the important measures and I will fast-track the process by incentivising those federations that meet their transformation targets and also determine to penalise those that fail to meet the targets when they have the means to do so. I thank you.



Mr M M CHABANGU: Hon Chair, let me start by expressing the fact that before democracy, the soccer loving people use to fill the stadiums, because we had people like Bhamjee, the late Nene and Louis Tshakoane, however after the done of democracy the stadiums are


empty because we have deployed the cadres like Danny Jordan, your Ace Ngcobo who are fighting for the positions in sports.



South Africa’s success at the Commonwealth Games is as a result of the transformation that has happened within the Athletics SA. What lessons can be learnt from transformation in South African athletes and other sporting quotes that have made progress with regards to transformation that can be applied to sporting quotes that lack behind when it comes to transformation? Thank you, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the hon member may also be revived by going to the very exhibition we were talking about, because by then there was nothing else in terms of sports and people would go to the stadia and we also used the very stadia to communicate some of the struggle agenda that we had to carry forward. Coming in now you know for a fact that our people and the infrastructure is not the same. In our rural areas, it is not there which is what we are trying to put together, but also focusing on relevant sporting quotes in the respective areas which is what I have been sharing before.



Maybe our understanding about what SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, does with its own challenges as well as


you would want to compare from what you are saying about SA Football Association, Safa, and who ever; critical to it is that firstly, each an every federation which is the progress that we have to date is that they have set themselves targets and have bought in to make sure that they have to follow the transformation agenda of the country. They have set themselves targets and we are pinning them down on when they do not meet those targets they have been set to achieve and that is why now when we talk about Safa even when we talk about the federations under Sascoc; because Sascoc is the overall co-ordinating body, we take them to task if they do not.



Indeed the success in terms of the Commonwealth Games, it must not be distorted or try to find whatever within this; it is where we have given opportunity to our young people to participate and equally in platforms all over the world, but as you can see those young black upcoming athletes have been given an opportunity; some of them never started at an early age. That is why now we want to find alignment in all the programmes that we are doing so that we are able to chart a very straight forward looking that begins to say that if you take a child from early childhood education at what stage can you see him at what level in terms of which quote? And we can see and hope that with the 16 quotes that we have identified to look into even promoting women and young people from rural areas in


terms of the rural sport, there is much more opportunity that is going to be created and therefore in terms of the demographics of the country there would be improvement in terms of the projections that we are going to make as we align and integrate our programmes and also direct sponsorships that would also focus on the less visited quotes. Thank you.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Minister, some of us we use to take part in the so-called Bophuthatswana games, we know what we are talking about when we say - pardon me let me allow the hon ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, you are protected. Please proceed.



Ms T J MOKWELE: Alright. Thank you. When we talk about transformation and the development of sporting quotes, we know what we are talking about. In those years, Minister, we use to have Easter games and Spring games and compete amongst each other as per districts of Bophuthatswana and ultimately going to other homelands. Maybe you can learn from the best and make sure that you do the right thing. Do not allege that people are not attending stadiums because stadiums were used for political meetings. Yes, we had other political meetings in those stadiums, but other than that we were


making sure that those rural youth and rural people and disadvantaged communities participate in sports.



Now, my question to you hon Minister, hope you are going to answer me. How far is your department in terms of transforming sports in the country? We know that Razzmatazz was trying his level best to make sure that all the sporting quotes in the country are transformed and there were penalties to that effect. What is it that you are doing moving forward from where he was before?                                                                                               Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Maybe, outside of this House we will find time to share with the hon member that in fact we have Easter games, we have winter ones... [Interjections.]



Ms T J MOKWELE: Where?



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: ...and participation by all provinces. [Interjections.]



Ms T J MOKWELE: Where?



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: So, I will share with you outside of this meeting.


The CHAIPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected, Minister!



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: So, our young people do participate and we have indigenous games. It is only in this democratic government. [Interjections.]



We did not have to throw it away because it is part of our heritage of our people!



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, can you respond to her through the Chair!



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: So, in the last week of April, we will be sharing with the country about the transformation assessment for this current financial year which is going to be the last and that is progress. I can share with the hon members even before that as I indicated earlier on that there is progress that is demonstrated by each of the federations that we are working with. As they had set themselves the barometer depending on how far they could go and we assess them according to that. So we will be announcing those results in the next week and I can assure you that there is positivity in terms of progress with various federations.

It is not going to be an event because deep down there in the rural


areas we still have to introduce the administrators besides just picking up one child and take that child to a university or taking that child and give him or her a bursary as a sole child. However, with the programmes and activities that we are running, we want those to come closer to the communities and the infrastructure that we are rolling out will be in the communities and the municipalities down there so that it provides the much needed kind of facilities and also the relevant trainers for those particular sporting quotes. Thank you, very much.



Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chair and hon Minister, I think the hon Minister is limiting this term of transformation a little bit too much. Hon Minister, when you go to professional soccer matches around the country there is only one female referee in the Professional Soccer League, PSL. Only one and when you go to rugby, I do not think there is any female rugby referee in the country. When you go to cricket, there is not a single female umpire. The schools that are perceived to be previously predominantly white schools, when they organise games, they still go to other schools that are like them. Schools in rural areas visit other schools in the rural areas. Schools in the townships still visit other black schools in the townships. So, that is how far the terminology of transformation will go besides just talking about the participants. I agree with you, there needs to be


a programme in respect of participants, but there needs to be also in social cohesion a programme in respect of spectatorship. There are certain sports in the country that are still categorised as black sports and other sports in the country that are still categorised as white sports. What is the department doing in respect of that kind of transformation?



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chair, maybe the hon members would understand when we get to the annual performance plan, APP, itself that outlines all the programmes that we are doing, because those programmes as I have been indicating, when you talk tackling transformation, you have to provide infrastructure and that is the infrastructure I was talking about. If you talk transformation, you are not only talking about participants that would be given bursaries or identified to get into a university because the infrastructure will get it into those institutions that use to have that infrastructure that would have had facilities before. However, now the infrastructure that we are talking about is the infrastructure that we are taking it to rural areas and to schools themselves. So, if you want to understand our overall strategy in terms of transformation, yes you will hear, but at the level of implementation, you are looking at the very federations who are bound by our relationship, who have set themselves targets


because it is not just something that would happen over a day. It is something where we are looking at the targets that we have set ourselves and to see who is meeting them and who is not meeting them and what needs to be done. So, it is as broad as you are saying and is encapsulated in terms of what our fuller strategy is all about, but here we were responding to your traditional counsellors’ rural development as was the question that was asked. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]



Question 79:


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chair, the challenges regarding this matter revolve around the slow pace at which the projects are implemented, as well as Sport and Recreation SA, National Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta. We have regular meetings to tackle some of the issues because the matters straddle amongst those key role players.



Although the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, Sport Infrastructure programme, in 2017, showed a significant improvement from the previous financial year, where we recorded about 10% progress in May 2016-17 compared to the nearly 20% in the current


year, we are faced with a number of challenges regarding implementation of these projects.



Firstly, projects of this nature need to feature in the Municipal Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, which is one requirement for approval and a significant number of them, even after having been identified, were not registered in the MIG system at the time applications were lodged. So, this means that we have identified and allocated them some money. Municipalities need to still submit them to Cogta for registration, which is often the starting point of challenges for us as a department. Therefore, it slows down progress on it.



Secondly, notwithstanding the fact that we also provide recommendation letters, as a sector department, confirming that the project meets the mandate imposed on us by the National Development Plan, the National Sport and Recreation Plan and the sub-outcome 3 of Outcome 14 in the government programme of action, Cogta often gives us a problems in that, at times, it declines to register such projects, based on the argument that they don’t comply with their MIG policy.


So, in various instances, it has led to significant delays in registration and therefore implementation of the projects, or worst even, a total cancellation of some of the projects. So, this MIG therefore militates against the mandate that is imposed on Sport and Recreation, Cogta itself and on the government programme of action Outcome 14.



So, we are continuously having these meetings to ensure interaction and we hope our efforts to engage Cogta and address this matter in the context of Outcome 14 will yield some positive results. As long as we cannot agree, we will continue to have these kind programmes. Thank you.



Mr D STOCK: Hon Chair, hon Minister, based on your response in terms of the institutional challenges of the Department of Sport and Recreation, Cogta, National Treasury and municipalities, have you never considered in the meetings that you normally have with Cogta or has it never crossed your mind that you should maybe make a proposal that the Sport Infrastructure Grant which is now not only managed by your department, but you are also responsible to allocate

... This means that you are interacting with municipalities that identify the project and then you allocate. You cannot just spend


because you still have to go through the route of Cogta and then Cogta administers the whole Municipal Infrastructure Grant.



In terms of all these issues that you are raising, the problem is that it will continue because when a municipality underspends, there is an issue. If the project is not finished, it will always come back to haunt you or your department. When you appear before the select committee, we will take you head on, based on all the projects that are unfinished. So, maybe as a brand new Minister and as part of the radical economic transformation, come up with a radical proposal that Cogta should actually hand the administration of the grant to you so that you strengthen the implementation of that grant and also accountability. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, as I indicated, we have improved our engagement with Cogta, with the view to influence the review of the very policy that they are pointing to, which is prohibitive in terms of what we seek to achieve. Such a review may involve amending certain sections of their MIG policy or the migration of the sport infrastructure allocation from MIG to the department. Those are the kind of engagements that we are having with Cogta at the moment.


Whilst we have not yet reached that, we are looking into setting up an intergovernmental relations mechanism that seeks to bring all of us together, so that we can implement with what we have at moment.



Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, the so-called Danny Jordaan World Cup legacy stadiums and sporting facilities in Uitenhage, the state of the art sport complex with the swimming pool and fields for hockey, soccer, etc, went to ruins. I went there two years ago and there is almost nothing left of this place. I have raised it in the same House. We called him razzmatazz. I don’t know what happened to this Minister, but he was in this House two years ago and he said to us that he will take this on and that he will have a look at this stadium and the sport facility for the communities.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are we still talking about the 2017-18 financial year challenges regarding implementation?



Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I am getting there. I want to know... Until today, this department did not lift a hand to help recuperate the infrastructure. I would like to know if you will help so that the community can use this. Will you commit today, in this 2017-18 financial year, to follow up this issue so that the community has a sport complex to use in this area?


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chair, I will go back to gain better understanding of what is happening because I don’t want to make the assumption that the infrastructure is not managed either by a municipality or whoever. It therefore means that I must get information on what happened, whom it was handed over to and what the maintenance plan is. So, I will have to go back and understand and come with the facts.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, you are aware of the fact that we will follow up on any commitment that you make.



Ms Z V NCITHA: No I’m not fine Chair, thank you. I have noted that the Minister is saying there are discussions between the Cogta and the sports department on the issue of sports infrastructure development.



My main worry, Chair, is on the issue of the Integrated Development Plans, IDPs that she has referred to, which does not include this kind of a function of developing the sports infrastructure.



Remember you have municipalities that have a very low revenue base, which in their understanding is that this is not their core business


to develop sports infrastructure. They have priorities of service delivery infrastructure development.



Yes, to have negotiations with the Cogta department but what about extending that with those districts and metros that are supposed to be implementers of such, especially based on the fact that it is not their function. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much hon member. I understand because you have been at the coalface of understanding the issues around the municipal infrastructure grant, MIG, municipalities. The fact that in the smaller municipalities the allocation is so minimal they can’t even come up with any reasonable infrastructure that we can talk of to provide these kinds of facilities.



However, over the years - because of the infrastructure that we will be rolling out - there is some closeness of working together coming between the municipalities, which is the provincial government and municipalities in the districts and the local government. However, we are also looking at linking this infrastructure development with the school sports programme.


So, all those kinds of role-players we are bringing in closer together because with the Department of Basic Education – I think the Deputy Minister earlier on was indicating on the adoption of the memorandum of understanding, MOU, on school sports that it is about to be signed.



It begins to assist us to think of coming together and work with the municipalities again and find the kind of infrastructure we need, and also locating where it would be, so that it can benefit a lot of schools. In that way, if it happens that there is a struggle in the municipalities’ infrastructure then we will make sure that the district comes in to participate. All municipalities that are involved would also come and assist us in terms of taking the process forward.



Chair, it is part of the overall discussion to say what is it that we all can do and locate this sport infrastructure grant or funding. There is still a very big debate according to how we were projecting. We are looking at about 15% of the MIG. In terms of the current infrastructure needs in the municipalities we are able to get even less than 5% as it is at the moment.


So we are still struggling, we are getting in there and looking into how we are going to even utilise this little that we have got. So far, we take it as a step forward into the right direction but critical to all of us for it to be implemented, it means all role players still need to come together because you have to meet the criteria in the MIG from the Cogta side.



You also have to make sure that the municipalities also buy into it by making sure that they include this into their IDPs. So it is work in progress, hon Chair, that we still need to do and also bring to attention that sport is not just about the Department of Sport and Recreation, but it is about issues of social cohesion, of which all South Africans have a role.



However, bringing in the private sector to be part of what we are doing would also be critical within the municipalities. So it is a whole host of work that we think we are going to embark on moving forward. Thank you.



Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Thanks Chair. You know, I’m sitting here Minister and getting agitated. We are the Fifth Parliament – you are disturbing me, “wena” [You.]


Being the Fifth Parliament we are – we started in 2014, and in 2014 we developed what we call a strategic plan, which must be implemented in five years, and we continue to hear words from you, and this is the fourth year, getting into the fifth year, that we will look into, we will look into.



We should be looking into a situation where we finally implement a plan that we had in 2014. Now 2017-18 is what should complement what has been happening all the years; the 5% Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG that municipalities are getting to implement sports programmes is not a new matter.



If you are still looking into how you are going to deal with this issue in the fifth year it creates a very serious problem to me because it then questions the implementation phase of what we are planning, because planning precedes budgeting and budgeting comes after you have planned. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motlashuping, I guess you still have time. You have 20 seconds to put that question through.



Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: My question is at what stage are you going to implement what you planned in 2014, because it is 2017-18 now?


The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much. I think the hon member will also understand being a member of the House how the Division of Revenue happens; and the fact that we have to work as part of the intergovernmental relations.



We are implementing our plan but it is moving slowly because it is not depended on just one department, sport cuts across. So you have

– whether you like it or not - you have plans of the municipalities and municipalities have other priorities.



We continue to work as part of our intergovernmental relations but also we will be coming back to the House when we found each other to make sure that there could be some review in terms of some of those legislations to allow us and locate some of the funding to the proper place where it is going to be better utilised.



At the moment in terms of our national Department of Sport and Recreation we are building our capacity as a department and readying ourselves for all the infrastructure programmes that we are running that, hon members will hear of in their respective provinces as we will be rolling out.


We have about ten that are ready at the moment, which is an indication of the fact that it is moving but it is moving not at the pace that we are looking for because of the challenges that I have mentioned.



Therefore, those challenges do not reside elsewhere, they reside in us imparting on the current legislation and the authority of those other spheres of government and other role-players who are at play for us to make sure we can roll out, but also on budgetary issues. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members that concludes our questions day. I thank you Minister for availing yourself. [Applause.]



The Council adjourned at 19:35.



No related