Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 25 May 2017

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Minutes

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THURSDAY, 25 MAY 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The House met at 14:11.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

RESIGNATION OF HON HE MATEME AS THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP

(Announcement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, before I proceed, I would
like to announce that I have received a letter of resignation from
the hon Dr H E Mateme as Chief Whip of the Council. I want to
suggest that as the item for the election of the new Chief Whip is
not on the Order Paper that we insert it after the item number 4 –
and that we proceed then to elect the new Chief Whip of the Council
today still. Thank you, hon members.

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PROTECTED DISCLOSURES AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of a Bill and of Report thereon)

Question put: That the Bill, subject to proposed amendments, be
agreed to.

[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, accordingly agreed to in
accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

THE SECOND ORDER
THE FIRST ORDER

FINANCIAL SECTOR REGULATION BILL

(Consideration of a Bill and of Report thereon)

Question put: That the Bill, subject to proposed amendments, be
agreed to.

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[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, accordingly agreed to in
accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT ON JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE FINANCIAL
MANAGEMENT OF PARLIAMENT - PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH
AFRICA’S 2015/2016 ANNUAL REPORT.

Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chairperson, hon members, I am honoured to table
the Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management
of Parliament before this august House today. As hon members would
recall, in 2009 Parliament passed the legislation; Financial
Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act (Act No. 10
of 2009).

Amongst the key objectives of this legislation is to, ensure
transparency, accountability and sound management of the revenue,
expenditure, assets and liabilities of Parliament; ensure
consultative relationship between Parliament and the National
Treasury at the highest level; and also to provide the National
Treasury with the opportunity to make comments on the proposed

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annual budget and adjustment budget for Parliament; information on
the proposed annual budget and adjustment of Parliament for
inclusion in the national budget and adjustment budget, and regular
information on expenditure of Parliament.

In exercising this oversight, the legislation further provide that
this committee must amongst others; consider instructions issued by
the executive authority in terms of section 37, consider the annual
report submitted to Parliament in terms of section 60; as well as
consider instructions issued by the executive authority in terms of
relevant sections.

It is my submission that this oversight mechanism provides for
transparency and accountability of political and financial
governance of Parliament as opposed to supervision of the accounting
authority of Parliament as this is clearly the powers and functions
of the executive authority. It oversees the implementation of policy
and the costs associated therewith, not at a co-policy making body
as this resides with the Joint Rules of Parliament.

Against this background and context, the joint standing committee
has considered Parliament‘s 2015/16 annual reports and the 2016/17
midyear report. We are pleased to announce that Parliament has

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sustained the unqualified audit outcome for two successive years.
The commitment by the accounting authority of Parliament to maintain
this clean audit and further improve on some of the internal control
and risk management are welcome by the committee.

The support of members of Parliament compared to other national
legislatures is a shared concern of this committee and the presiding
officers. We have unanimously agreed that this matter must receive
urgent attention.

We would all recall how the toxic labour relations environment has
nearly brought Parliament to a standstill in the recent past. This
is amongst critical issues that the committee have considered
through the petition by the organised labour.

We should however hasten to point out that; it is ideally not the
mandate of this committee to grapple with labour relations issues as
relevant platforms are provided for through other legislative
instruments and platforms. There is consensus that the accounting
authority should give more attention to this matter and report to
the joint standing committee. I refer to the full report as tabled
in the ATC. Thank you.

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Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote:
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, by the standards
Parliament set themselves, the institution has failed dismally. With
regard to Parliament‘s performance of its 2015/2016 programmes,
37,5% of target were not met on Programme 01 which is administration
and 62,5% of target were not met on Programme 02 which is
Legislation and oversight, 40% of target were not met on Programme
03 which is Public Participation and International Engagement and
50% of target were not met on Programme 04 which is Members
Facilities and 100% of targets were not met on Programme 05 which is
Associated Services.

Perhaps, some of these failures can be linked to Parliament vacancy
rate which stood at 20% or one in five, over the period in review.
Programme 02 which you might recall missed more than 60% of its
target suffered 13,4% vacancy rate while this might not sound
dramatic. It is a serious problem if you consider that it affects
the highly specialised Legal Advisory and Drafting Services, the
Parliamentary Budget Office, the Questions Office and other
similarly skilled units.

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The effective functioning of Parliament demands that these crucial
and overburden units are adequately staffed and operating maximally.

There has also been astonishing amount of irregular expenditure
amounting to a sum of 15 million over the period in review, and
fruitless and wasteful expenditure increased almost 50% on the year.
Furthermore, Parliament has increased its advertising cost 28,8% to
almost 30 million, spending on consultants, contractors and special
services increased to almost 24 million and consulting and
professional fees related to legal cost increased by a mammoth of
104,3% to almost 15 million.

Based on the poor performance across all programmes, obvious
mismanagement of the Parliamentary Budget combined with the
intolerable irregular, fruitless, and wasteful expenditure, the
Western Cape can‘t support this Report. I thank you, Chairperson.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

Against: Western Cape.

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Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL
MANAGEMENT OF PARLIAMENT - ON THE 2016/17 MID-YEAR REPORT OF
PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA

Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, it seems that there are
no institutions in South Africa that are impervious to state capture
and sadly, the contagion are spreading to Parliament itself.

This was self evident on a series of suspected appointments of
senior management level in late 2016 and early 2017, including the
appointment of the long serving spokes person or spin doctor for the
ANC caucus, Mr Moloto Mothapo to the position of Division Manager at
Parliamentary Communication Services.

We also saw the appointment of a former ANC MP Dumisani Sithole to
the position of a Division Manager on International Relations and

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Protocol. Mr Sithole is said to have beaten 96 other applicants
despite having been fired as a Director of the Alexander Renewal
Project for insubordination.

And then there was an appointment of Vusimusi Mavuso to the position
Division Manager to Support Services. Mr Mavuso famously resigned in
half from the SABC Board during the portfolio committee meeting at
Parliament in October.

Are these honestly the best candidates for senior management
position at multi party institution like Parliament, hardly?

Then you have the Secretary to Parliament, Mr Gengezi Mgidlana, who
is currently under investigation by the Public Protector for abuse
of power and the claims against him relates to overseas jaunts with
his spouse amounting to sum of 2 million, instructing Parliamentary
Protection Services to chauffer his wife and making use of state
vehicles fitted with blue lights. It was also revealed in committee
that the Secretary awards himself a 30 000 study bursary whilst
rejecting applications by junior staffers.

Despite all these extravagances Parliament have been told that there
will be no salary increases this year, further exasperating labour

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relations at the legislature which previously resulted in crippling
strikes and, in September 2016, culminated in a Commission for
Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, ruling against the
Secretary which could cost this Parliament as much 38 million. This
is the cost of deploying the wrong people at Parliament. And let us
not forget that Mr Mgidlana‘s role in the totally unwarranted
securitisation for the state of the nation address 2017 which saw
soldiers carrying assault rifles entering the precinct despite
explicit assurances to the contrary.

Ultimately, the responsibility for this dysfunction at Parliament
lies with Mr Mgidlana‘s superiors, namely the Speaker of the NA and
the Chairperson of the NCOP. The Western Cape opposes this report. I
thank you.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

Against: Western Cape.

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Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

ELECTION OF CHIEF WHIP OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

(Announcement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, earlier on I proposed that
we consider an item for the election of Chief Whip of the Council to
be inserted after the Fourth Order. Can I proceed? Hon members, I
call for the nomination. Hon Dikgale?

Ms M C DIKGALE: Thank you Chairperson. I, Masefako Clarah Dikgale,
hereby nominate hon S J Mohai as the Chief Whip of the National
Council of Provinces. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any member seconding? Hon
Samka?

IsiXhosa:
Nksk P C SAMKA: Sihlaho, ndilixhasa igama lohloniphekileyo, uBawo
uMohai ukuba abe nguMbhexeshi wale Ndlu. Enkosi Sihlalo.

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English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I‘m coming back to you
again and again. Is there anybody in the House who is against the
nomination and secondment of the hon Mohai? No-one?

If there is nobody who is against the name of the hon Mohai and
there is no proposal for any other person, I will therefore proceed
to announce the hon Mohai duly elected as the Chief Whip of the
National Council of Provinces. [Applause.]

Hon members, thank you very much. First of all I wish to say thank
you to Dr Mateme for the services that you have rendered to this
House. In life you sometimes meet up with issues which take you to
the left, issues which keep you dead centre and others that take you
elsewhere. Whichever it is and whatever life throws at us, as adults
we always accept, deal with it, fix, but proceed with living. Thank
you very much ma‘am. [Applause.]

I also wish to congratulate the hon Mohai on becoming the new Chief
Whip. The work is not easy but we hope that you will carry the load
of serving all the members of this House equally as the Chief Whip
of the NCOP. You are welcome sir.

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Hon members, I am also aware that we have an American delegation in
our gallery. It is led by the chairperson of an organisation called
GoPEO, Mr Thomas Abrahams. You are welcome sir. [Applause.]

I wish to proceed to the next item on the agenda. Secretary, will
you read the next item?

APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Budget Vote no 23: Police and Vote No 20: Independent
Investigative Directorate:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson and hon members of the
House, Deputy Minister of Police, Hon B Mkongi, Members of the
Executive Council for Police, for Safety and Security, entities of
policing in the republic, the Independent Police Investigative
Directorate, IPID, Civilians Secretariat, Private Security Industry
Regulatory Authority, PSIRA, Directorate for Priority Crimes and
Investigation, DPCI, and the South African Police Management, all
our important organs, Members of Parliament and the media, I rise
before you today to table the police debate on Budget Vote 23 for.

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As I hereby do, we should also reaffirm our pledge to Agenda 2063,
which makes a commitment to silence the guns in Africa by 2020. This
clarion call is made in celebration of Africa Day. In the same
context, we continue to be inspired by the words of Oliver Tambo
when he said: ―The only way to bring about peace and prosperity is
to liquidate all forms of crime and criminality. Crime can never be
amended or reformed but it should be fought against and be defeated‖

Chairperson, on this occasion, we recall the great words of former
Minister of Police, Steve Tshwete and today he speaks to us from the
grave when he said: ―We will fight criminality with ferocity of a
cornered bull and agility of a cat‖ We are not going to do short
cuts, no short term planning, no short term solutions. It is not
going to be business as usual. We need warriors in this battle and
not cowards and corrupt elements. We need men and women of honour in
the police service.

We salute all police who passed away. We dip our banner in their
name today. We say rest in peace. We will soldier on with the
struggle against criminality in the republic and keep South Africans
safe.

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Gender based violence should be fought with all arsenal at our
disposal. All our 1144 police stations nationwide are going to
ensure that no women are turned back from reporting acts of crime
against them. We call upon all women to come forward and report all
cases of abuse against them. Soon we will be taking the launch to
every police station.

Our approach to fighting crime is going to be intelligence - led and
bold. Resources will be redirected towards crime intelligence. The
Hawks must bring crime and corruption to its knees. The days of only
concentrating on cosmetic crimes and turning blind eye on
individuals committing serious white collar crimes are over. There
are many individuals in the society who are known to be committing
serious commercial crimes under the protection of few police
officials. Their days are numbered including those police officials
providing them protection. We are not going to tolerate the practice
of recycling criminals in our police stations. This is our social
contract with the people of South Africa. You can hold us to that!

In the past few days, our country had been engulfed by a new scourge
and wave of lawlessness. Criminals are running amok in this country
terrorising our people. We must declare war against crime. We must
declare crime as domestic terrorism. Criminals are brutalising our

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society with impunity. In the few weeks that we have been in police,
we have seen amongst others, the Nyanga hostage scene, Mandla
Hlatshwayo, Elsies River killings, two police officers shot, brutal
killing of Karabo Mokoena, and the missing Flora Moetshe. The
situation is unacceptable.

It calls on all of us to respond equally to the fight that criminals
are muting on us. As the Ministry of Police, we want the country and
the world to know that we are declaring war against criminals and
criminality.

As we move forward, we want to disarm South Africa. Parallel to this
programme is the recovery of the stolen and robbed vehicles of the
police, including the brutal killing of the police. This will not be
successful if we lack necessary skills in detective services. We are
determined more than ever before to look acutely in the areas of
detection rade, counter intelligence and the reinforcement of
informers. We hope this will limit serious crimes against our
people, especially crimes like the contact crimes, crimes against
women and crimes against our children.

The budget allocations of the IPID increased from R197,9 million in
the financial year 2012-13 to R255,5 million in 2017-18 at a growth

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rate of 29%, a significant increase due to implementation of
Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act 1 of 2011. The
independence of the IPID have been reconfirmed by the rulings of
both the North Gauteng High Court and the Constitutional Court in
their judgements on the 6th of September and the 4th of December
respectively.

As the Ministry, we are committed to maintaining and upholding the
decisions of our courts. In this financial year, the Firearms
License Appeal Board intends to forward proposals that will better
manage the spread of firearms and reduce the proliferation of the
firearms. In line with the Africa Agenda 2063 to reduce the flow of
guns in Africa and ultimately silence the guns in Africa by 2020,
the process of the Firearms‘ Appeal Board will be fully supported.

The Private Security Industry Regulation Authority is one organ that
serves as an oversight on this crucial industry. The current growth
in the number of the actively employed security officers from 488
666 during the financial year 31 March 2017 bares testament to the
pivotal role the industry continues to play in creating entry level
employment for the majority of South Africans especially young
people and women who are employed in the industry.

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However, the growth of the industry also brings along with it
challenges of non-compliance and unfair labour practices. In light
of the challenges, the authority is continuously strengthening its
stakeholder engagement network.

As we look back we identified the following as key anchors of our
road - map to transform policing in South Africa: Establishment of a
single police service, improvement of the conditions of service of
members of the South African Police Services, SAPS, establish street
committees to assist in the fight against crime, increase the human
capacity to fight and combat rhino poaching, implementation of the
resolutions of the National Security Structures, and implementation
of the process of protecting national key points by the National
Security Agencies.

Hon Chairperson, in order to achieve this, the SAPS has been
allocated a budget of R87 billion for the 2017-18 financial year
which includes a transfer to the Civilian Secretariat for Police
Service of R124.7 Million. The back-to-basics approach to policing
is primarily benefiting the visible policing and detective services
programmes, which are the department‘s core service delivery
programmes. These two programmes constitute of R62 billion, or 71,3
percent, of the total budget for this financial year with a combined

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personnel count of R140 657 in 2016-17.

In enhancing police visibility, entails optimising spending on
personnel, vehicles and infrastructure to ensure that the police
service is accessible to communities and can make its presence felt.
A significant proportion of the department‘s budget, approximately
76,4% over the medium term, is allocated to spending on compensation
of employees.

The department is developing a plan to expand public order policing
to support the implementation of the recommendations of the Marikana
Commission of Inquiry. Allocation of R242 million in 2017-18 and
R355,8 million in 2018-19 were approved by Cabinet in the 2016
budget for this purpose. This explains the projected increase of
7,9% over the medium term in expenditure in the Specialised
intervention, sub-programme in the visible policing programme.

Towards the end of 2017-18 financial year and emanating from
staffing priorities defined within the department‘s annual
performance plan for 2017-18. Adequate human resource capacity will
be established at local level with specific focus on the visible
policing.

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In terms of the planned post allocation criteria of the department
for the 2017-18 financial year, 81% of all replacement posts will be
prioritised towards the recruitment of South African Police Service
Act 68 Of 1995. This will ensure an improved frontline capability of
the department. In addition, the department has prioritised the
recruitment of reservists, as a force multiplier at local level,
during the 2017-18 financial year. It is envisaged that a total of
2610 reservists will be appointed.

A total of R2,5 billion is allocated over the Medium-Term
Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period to the Administration programme
to build, upgrade and maintain police stations. The department plans
to build 63 additional police stations over the period at an
estimated cost of R588,3 million. An amount of R5,7 billion is
allocated over the medium term for transportation equipment,
including vehicles, and R4,5 billion is budgeted for fleet
maintenance.

Hon Chairperson, the current biggest challenge faced by the SAPS is
the trio crimes or the three most serious crimes in our country,
amely; car-hijacking, robbery-residential and robbery-nonresidential. A task team in this regard was mandated to develop a

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National Action Plan to address trio crimes in the top 20 trio crime
clusters and the plan will be implemented with effect from 1st April
2017.

The key drivers of broad public discontent persisted during 2016-17
and included issues of inadequate access to housing, the provision
of basic services, lack of employment opportunities, corruption
associated with the allocation of tenders, dissatisfaction with the
restructuring of municipal boundaries and economic disparity,
including #FeesMustFall campaign which manifested in peaceful and
violent community protests. The violent protest increased by 87,9%
as opposed to peaceful protests which increased by 25,1%. The new
Public Order Policing Policy provides direction for a human rightsbased approach to dealing with public protection and is supported by
the Dangerous Weapons Act 15 of 2013.

In the state of the nation address, President Jacob Zuma directed
the Justice Crime Prevention and Security Cluster, to put measures
in place to ensure that any incidents of violent protest are acted
upon, investigated and the perpetrators prosecuted. The SAPS will
ensure that dedicated capacity exists to manage public disorder and
will integrate with all relevant capabilities in the public and

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private sectors to ensure that the President‘s requirements in this
regard, are met.

The department plans to develop a plan to expand public order
policing, re-establish units in Cape Town, Durban and Nelspruit, reestablish 15 dormant units, establish eight new units and expand
public order policing personnel to 8 820 members by 2019-20.

Inspired by the words of Comrade Steve our message to the criminal
elements are unequivocally loud and clear: ―Operation Washa Tsotsi‖
I thank you [Applause.]

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, hon Minister of Police, Mr Mbalula,
Deputy Minister of Police, Mr Mkhongi, members of the SA Police
Service, SAPS, senior members of the Independent Police
Investigative Directorate Ipid, VIPs in the gallery members from
different provinces who are here today, Chairperson thank you very
much for presenting this Vote no 20 and 23. The National Development
Plan, NDP, states that by 2030 all people in South Africa should
feel safe and not fear crime. This is the NDP goal for both the SAPS
and IPD.

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One of the Medium-Term Fiscal Framework targets is to ensure the SA
Police reduces the levels of contact crime. In respect of contact
crimes at provincial levels, three provinces contact crimes
decreased in the last financial year. These provinces are the Free
State, Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal; however, the remaining six
provinces recorded increases ranging from 6,4% in Limpopo, 3,3% in
Gauteng to the lowest increase of 0,4% in North West Province.
Gauteng remains the highest crime contributor with 27,7% followed by
the Western Cape with 18,8%. It is clear that much work still have
to be done, in Gauteng and the Western Cape to ensure a reduction in
conduct crimes and the SAPS has to work more closely with
communities in the provinces to ensure overall decrease in conduct
crime.

During the state of the nation address of 2017, the President stated
that government was working with society to fight the social ills
that are tearing communities apart such as drugs and substance
abuse. The police will increase visible policing, building on the
successful pattern of deployments utilised during the Safer Festive
Season campaign. They will also utilise certain specialised
capabilities, such as the Tactical Response Teams and National
Intervention Units, to assist in addressing problematic high crime
areas. In the communities experiencing the highest crime, there is a

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need to build stronger partnerships with the police to ensure that
criminals do not prey on residents.

It is clear that ensuring a decrease in crime statistics is based on
SAPS forming strategic partnerships with communities and building
trust with those communities through the establishment of successful
community policing forums. In respect of the Budget, Police services
account for R87 billion as mentioned by the Minister. Over the
medium-term, the SA Police Service will intensify its implementation
of Back to Basics strategy to improve police performance and
conduct.

A total of R2,5 billion will be allocated to the department to
upgrade and maintain police stations, with a further R10,2 billion
to procure and maintain transport equipments. We are pleased with
the focus of the budget on equipment as the select committee noted
last year that many police stations were experiencing difficulties
in respect of insufficient vehicles allocated per province, which
had a direct impact on SA Police Service being able to fulfil their
mandate effectively.

The SAPS spending focus over the medium-term will be focused on the
following: Professionalising the SAPS through skills development;

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strengthening of the criminal justice system, CJS, revamp and
modernisation programme; provision of equipment and training for
detectives; purchasing of critical equipment such as bulletproof
resistant vests, firearms, ammunition, clothing, mobile police
stations; strengthening the resource capacity of Public Order
Policing units as mentioned by the Minister.

In the select committee‘s interaction with the SAPS on their budget
and Annual Performance Plans, APPs, the following were raised as key
issues for SAPS to focus on going forward: With regard to the
Community Policing Forums, CPF, the department explained that the
CPF functionality exists after an election of an executive
committee. The programme must be established in a meeting to engage
the community. When the CPF has issues impacting the community, they
must mobilise the community to address the issues; regarding the
active community participation within crime prevention programmes,
the school involvement in terms of Back to Basics relates to foot
patrols that were implemented. Horse patrols were also implemented
in rural areas; small mobile stations were established in rural
areas; the problematic schools receive more visits and police
presentations; department‘s collaboration with other crime
prevention structures and municipalities, the SAPS interact with
municipal managers and mayors to establish partnerships. The metro

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police bring their plans for approval and form part of the SAPS
operations.

In respect of IPID which h is vote 20 in front of us today the
Independent Police Investigative Directorate is responsible for
ensuring a system of internal and external checks and balances aimed
at ensuring that police carry out their duties properly and are held
responsible if they fail to do so. Independent Police Investigative
Directorate is exercising its role by trying to instil a culture of
human rights in policing to ensure that police officials are held
accountable. The Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act
gives effect to the provision of section 206(6) of the Constitution,
ensuring independent oversight of the SAPS and municipal police.

The Independent Police Investigative Directorate budget is
255,5 million. Over the medium-term, Ipid will focus on reviewing
and amending the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act,
2011, following a Constitutional Court ruling in September 2016,
mentioned by the Minister, in which several sections of the Act were
declared inconsistent with section 206(6) of the Constitution. The
directorate will focus on strengthening its existing investigative
capacity to improve the quality of investigations and

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recommendations, and holding outreach and training events to raise
awareness of its mandate and act.

Due to the limited budget, Ipid is experiencing a severe capacity
constraint which is impacting on the following: Integrity
strengthening and protection; legal services and contract
management; service delivery coverage and accessibility; accounting,
compliance and reporting responsibilities; strategy and performance
monitoring; monitoring the quality of recommendations. As a result
of budget cuts, IPID is unable to conduct full implementation of the
Marikana Commissions report recommendations. Further, the current
Estimates of National Expenditure, ENE, excludes legal services as a
budget programme. This is very concerning given that Ipid requires
legal services in order to fulfil its mandate effectively.

Despite lPlD‘s capacity and budgetary constraints, it has
highlighted the following achievements on a provincial level:
Northern Cape policemen have been sentenced to 5 years imprisonment
and 5 years suspended in service for the rape of two teenagers aged
16 and 14 years old. Gauteng police constable sentenced to 18 years
for Bedfordview murder. Constables sentenced to 18 years
imprisonment for 3 counts of Rape in Macassar here in the Western
Cape. A constable was convicted for murder in KwaZulu-Natal and

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sentenced to 5 years imprisonment. A warrant officer in North West
was convicted for murder and sentenced to 20 years imprisonment.
These examples provide a good sense of the work which Ipid is doing
on a provincial basis.

However, challenges still remain in respect to compliance of the
SAPS and the National Prosecution Authority, NPA, with Ipid
recommendations. In this respect, IPID has reported that the
Department referred a total of 969 recommendations to SAPS and there
are still 707 recommendations which SAPS has to respond to. In
respect of the NPA, Ipid forwarded a total of 1048 referrals to the
NPA of which Ipid is awaiting a response to 1 013 of the referrals.
To address the noncompliance, Ipid is considering entering into a
memorandum of understanding with each department respectively.

The implementation of Ipid‘s recommendations is integral to
inculcating a culture of accountability and to fight corruption
within SAPS. This culture will in turn ensure that the confidence of
citizens in South Africa is instilled in the SAPS. This will then go
a long way in strengthening relationships between SAPS and the
citizens of South Africa in terms of forging good partnerships in
fighting crime going forward.

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It is important for Ipid to ensure that its investigative capacity
remains intact in order that it may fulfil its mandate. The
establishment of the national specialised investigative team in
2015-16 has strengthened the directorate‘s capacity to investigate
cases of systematic corruption. Further, Ipid needs to continue to
ensure that awareness raising is conducted in order that citizens
understand the role of Ipid in ensuring oversight over SAPS. In this
regard, Ipid is intending to conduct 108 community outreach events
in each year over the medium-term and provide training to officials
in 180 out of 1 140 police stations. Hopefully, these community
interventions will ensure that citizens who feel dissatisfied with
police officials will come forward to report corrupt officials.

Despite the serious budgetary constraints under which the Ipid is
implementing its programmes, it is important to note that the Ipid
is taking steps to ensure that it is still able to fulfil its
mandate in the following ways: One, regular monitoring of
expenditure of ex‘members; two, continuous reprioritisation of core
activities such as investigations; lastly, implementation of cost
containment measures. However, Ipid requires assistance and support
to implement the following effectively: Full implementation of the
ConCourt judgement concerning the amendment of the Ipid Act; full

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implementation of the Farlam Commission and Auditor-General of SA
recommendations.

In Conclusion, Chairperson, both the SAPS and the Ipid have an
important role to play in ensuring that people are and feel safe in
South Africa. It is therefore with this in mind that we trust the
two organisations will find common ground to work together to fulfil
their mandates and the NDP goals, most importantly, to ensure a
reduction in crime and the rooting out of corruption amongst SAPS
officials to restore public confidence and co-operation.

IsiXhosa:
Umahluko mkhulu phakathi kwamapolisa awayekho phambi kowe-1994
kunamapolisa esinawo namhlanje , nokuba iimeko zithini zona.
Ndiyabulela. Kwaqhwatywa.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, for the last three years I have
returned to this podium to criticise the Minister of Police for
being the President's caporegime and for turning our police service
into a mob. He denied all allegations and laughed off all
constructive suggestions with ignorance. Having served his purpose,
he reached his end point of usefulness; albeit a bit later for the
President than for the country, and was sent on his way. And

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although I would be the first to say that it was a case of good
riddance to see the back of Minister Nhleko in this department, the
problem with Cabinet reshuffles is that he is no longer accountable
for the mess that he oversaw. It would be very unfair of me to hold
the new Minister accountable for his predecessor's lack of vision.
On the tombstone of his tenure as Police Minister simply stands,
accurately; here lies a simple man, with simple ideas. He did as he
was told and he defended it vacuously which, in this case means with his whole mind. I sincerely hope, hon Minister, that you will
not be more of the same.

So, allow me to take the liberty to propose a few areas in which the
South African Police Service has failed to make advances, but which
are vital in order to ensure that it functions in such a way that it
will actually deal with the issue that is closest to the hearts of
our people - their safety.

There are three important things that need to be done in order to
improve the Police Service in South Africa. We need to ask what it
is that we are policing; we need to build capacity to be able to
police these matters; and finally, we need to consider a
decentralised approach where provinces have more authority in
matters of policing. In the first instance, we need to be honest

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about the strain the criminal justice system is under. For many
years the system has not kept up to date with changes in social
dynamics to such an extent that police are being kept busy with
actions that should not constitute crimes whilst other crimes go
unpunished due to the fact that the process of criminalising these
crimes takes too long.

Our country sits with a situation where people who commit petty
crimes are being jailed with murderers and rapists, over crowding
our prisons without any efforts being made to rehabilitate them;
instances where alternative punishment measures would suffice
rather. In other instances people are being jailed for committing
crimes that should in the first instance not be considered a crime.

Minister, I know that the entire criminal justice system does not
fall within your department's jurisdiction, but it might be time for
yourself and the Minister of Justice to consider the decriminalisation of certain offenses as well as the way in which the
police deals with these individuals in such a way that would take
unnecessary strain off our criminal justice system and open up
opportunities for the South African Police Service to focus on more
serious crimes.

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Furthermore, we need to build the necessary capacity for the police
to do their jobs not only to protect VIPs. At the present and I'm
sure the Minister is aware of this, the police in some parts of our
country lack even the most basic of tools such as vehicles. However,
there is another facet of capacity building that needs just as much
attention. In order for us to keep up with sophisticated crimes
targeting specific groups of individuals, the police needs to move
quicker with establishing specialised units. Some efforts have been
made in the past, but unfortunately, not in all the vital areas. In
this instance, the department should consider establishing units
that will deal with rural safety and gangsterism in specific parts
of the country such farming communities in the case of the former
and the Cape Flats for the latter, and of course training.

Minister, we can be proud of those South African Police Service
members who do their job outstandingly, but I have sadly too often
come across many police officers who don't even know how to do
something as basic as to officiate an affidavit. South African
Police Service‘s training model is not working as it should.

I have also in the past expressed concern about the breakdown of the
trust relationship between the service and the public. Too many
individuals with criminal records are still linked to the South

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African Police Service and decisive action needs to be taken against
such criminals. It is no use to say that you will take on the
tsotsis if you do not take on the tsotsis in uniform.

Having said that, the lack of resources and stereotyping of the
South African Police Service members as all being criminal, trigger
happy and ill disciplined completely breaks down the morale of those
South African Police Service members that do their job. It is those
members that we should go the extra mile in retaining before we
loose all our vital expertise.

Finally, Chairperson, it is perhaps time to look at the possibility
of giving more power in terms of police to honest and effective
provincial commissions and station commanders. More resources and
the freedom to adapt their system to what each region needs, can
only lead to better policing. In this instance I by no means profess
a complete decentralisation of the South African Police Service, but
where cities across the country have been allowed to establish their
own metro police networks, it has proven to bring down the rate of
crime where used effectively. This will enable provinces to
establish units that can focus on core challenges unique to specific
regions, such as border control in the Free State and northern
provinces, rural policing in northern and central South Africa,

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gangsterism in the Western and Northern Cape and sophisticated
commercial crimes in our bigger cities in places like Gauteng. It
will also open the door to bringing closer co-operation between the
political authority of policing, the police itself and local
civilian policing forums.

There is no reason, other than political reasons and one does not
play politics with the lives of citizens; not to give provinces a
bigger stake in the policing of their jurisdictions without
diminishing the authority of the national service.

In order to make the police work for our people, we cannot follow a
one size fits all model. We cannot continue equipping them poorly
with resources and skills and we cannot loose focus on what the real
threats to society's safety is. Once we grasp this; once we are
willing to think outside the box and fundamentally reform the old
and tired model of policing that has been failing our country over
the last few years, can we start building a model that will be able
to address the still much too high crime statistics in our country.
I might not be as kind in the future and I wish you well. I thank
you.

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Ms B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. (Thank you,
Chairperson). The EFF rejects both Budgets Vote 23 and Vote 20, on
Police and the Independent Police investigative Directorate,
respectively. South Africa is a country griped in a crime crisis
that the ANC seems not to know how to deal with it.

Between 2006 and 2016, there has been a 20% increase in murder rate
in this country, and as per the last crime statistics, about 51
people were being murdered in South Africa every day.

The Statistics SA showed that, at least, 142 women were getting
sexually violated in this country every single day, and that this
may also be an understatement of the problem, because most cases of
sexual violation do not get reported.

Most recently, we have all witnessed with horror various incidents
of crimes against children, young women and the elderly, who are
raped and murdered in this country.

In this vein, we call on all members of the EFF, and all men in
society to stand up and say, ‗No, not in our name.‘ The criminal
acts of a few men must be thoroughly condemned by all in society.

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We further call upon churches, civil society organisations, and all
social structures to lead programmes that seek to educate men about
the pain they are subjecting society to.

We call on all EFF branches, across the length and breadth of this
country, to be visible activists against the abuse of women and
children.

While all this is happening, the South African Police Service has no
permanent National Commissioner, and the one who is acting is
embroiled ... [Interjection.]

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order; I want
to ask the member if it is possible for her to take a question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathevula, will you take a
question?

Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndzi ta teka xivutiso xa n‘wina vhiki leritaka.
Ndza khensa. [I will take the question next week. Thank you.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: She won‘t Sir, please continue.

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Xitsonga:
XIRHO: U ta teka xivutiso xa mina.

English:
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, the result is that criminals are
reigning supreme in this country, knowing fully well that chances of
being caught are almost zero. The origin of all these problems can
be traced down to one man, and his name is Jacob Zuma.

It is public knowledge that Richard Mdluli wrote to Zuma and told
him he will ensure he wins the Mangaung conference if Mdluli could
be secured the position of national head of crime intelligence.

It is a well-known fact that Zuma used Ntlemeza to harass
Pravin Gorhan. His main interest has been on marginalizing the
security of the state, so that they can fight his own sinister
battles and protect him from accounting.

It was for this reason that Nathi Nhleko harassed McBride at every
opportunity, because he refused to do their dirty tricks. Mr Zuma
has now captured all institutions tasked with securing the country,
and he has ensured that their daily activities have nothing to do

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with securing the country, and everything to do with securing Zuma
the individual.

Mr Mbalula is just an attention seeking person who has neither the
capacity nor the intellectual strength needed to turn SAPS around.
We reject these Budget Votes.

Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I rise on the point of order. It is the
general Rule of Parliament that Members of Parliament are
appropriately addressed in the House. The speaker has mentioned, at
least, three Members of Parliament without using the appropriate way
of addressing them Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you sir.
Hon Mathevula, hon Members of Parliament, all of them in both Houses
will be referred to in this House, as honourable.

Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndzi hetile, Mutshamaxitulu. Ndza khensa. [I‘m
done, Chairperson. Thank you.]

Ms N NDALANE (Limpopo): Chairperson, hon Minister, Mr Mbalula,
Deputy Minister, hon Bongani Mkongi, hon members, entities of

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policing in the Republic, executive director of IPID, members of the
SAPS, esteemed guests, the rising incidents of domestic violence in
our country is the disturbing reality. No part of the country is
immune from this madness. As Limpopo we have also had our fair share
of this with some young girls being killed, perpetrators have been
arrested and other cases are getting investigated.

We have not folded our arms with regard to domestic violence cases.
While we agree that this is one of those difficult crimes to monitor
since it occurs behind closed doors, we are raising awareness to
those affected. We are visiting communities throughout the province
to raise awareness and reach-out to communities with regard to what
they must do when experiencing such treatment. We are liaising with
the Criminal Justice System to ensure that when prosecuting on such
cases sentences must send the strong message to would be abusers as
a deterrent.

Chairperson, until such time that we have all suspects behind bars,
Vuwani incidence will always become a concern. However, the fact
that court cases are continuing gives us hope that those behind the
burning of schools and destruction of public property will face the
full might of the law.

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Within the context of addressing community protests in the province,
our Premier, hon Stanley Mathabatha, established a Priority
Committee on Stability in the province. The committee comprises of
the following: the Department of Safety and Security and Liaison as
the co-ordinator, the Department of Education, the Department of
Cooperative Governance, Human Settlement and Traditional Affairs,
the South African Local Government Association, Salga, the SAPS, the
Department of Rural Development and Land Reform; the Department of
Home Affairs, the State Security Agency and both the district and
the provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders.

The main purpose of this committee is to empower all the
stakeholders dealing with protests through information sharing on
how best to deal with protests of these natures. The focus is how to
curb such protests turning into violence as well as opening a
dialogue with aggrieved parties.

Chairperson, as the Limpopo province, we will have a high percentage
of youth making up our population. This high young population is
active in shaping the socioeconomic status of the provincial
economy. In that regard, we have in the last quarter successfully
held a seminar on safety.

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Some of the issues highlighted at the summit were a need for an
ongoing consultative session with the youth in the five Limpopo
districts. The importance of demarcation as a planning tool for
serve delivery and elections was also highlighted. These and others
are all aimed at ensuring a safe and secure the social order in
Limpopo.

Hon Minister, I fully agree that easy access to alcohol and drugs
contribute to high social crimes. To attest to that we are
continuing to patrol problematic areas and ensure that all liquor
outlets comply with stipulated trading hours.

It is disturbing to note that in all these operations, young people
who find themselves on the wrong side of the law are leading the
pack. It is just unfortunate that when the law take its course, our
youth takes the rap. This leaves thousands of young people with
criminal records that bar them from securing meaningful
opportunities in the job market.

Chairperson, however as a measure of engaging our youth to be part
of their safer and secure communities, we have successfully
incorporated them into our community policing forums, CPFs, as well
as community safety forums, CSFs.

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With regard to the CPFs and CSFs, let it be noted that we are
currently busy with the re-launch aimed at maximizing safety in
their localities. During 2016-17 our CPFs and CSFs were receiving
stipends and sitting allowances as per crime prevention through
environmental design and the provincial CPF policy. The hon Minister
will be invited to the province to formally launch the community
safety forums from all local and district municipalities on a date
to be confirmed between the office of the MEC and the Minister.

This we did in support of Limpopo development plans the
responsibility to ensure the levels of serious and violent crimes
are drastically reduced. That is not a payment but an appreciation
for volunteering to spend time and own resources to ensure that your
communities feel safe and secured at all times. We are basically
reimbursing volunteers the costs incurred during their crime
prevention operations.

As an additional incentive, an amount of R4,5 million has been
secured to resource CPFs and CSFs operations. The end product
continues to be better safety and security through improved police,
community relations, that has proved to be effective in managing
crime.

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We fully agree with the Minister of Police for having identified one
police station per province for the pilot implementation of the
frontline service delivery project. We believe this will bring back
the trust that our people were beginning to lose in our police. It
will also assist us to check areas that need more emphasis in terms
of human relations.

Last financial year, we launched a programme called young civilians
on patrol as a volunteer programme. The programme was
operationalized through the Mid-Term Expenditure Framework period.
Young people linked to the CPFs in all police stations and the CSFs
in all the local municipalities will take part in this project. We
wanted to remove young people away from the streets.

Chairperson, the intention of the programme in the main is to equip
young people with necessary skills for patrolling our streets with
the police. We believe that the initiative will be building safer
communities in line with the NDP vision 2030. We also aim to ensure
that implementation of integrated approach towards fighting crime
utilizing all the available crime fighting agencies within our
communities.

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We have increased and squeezed crime and criminal elements at
problematic areas in the City of Polokwane and our public now enjoy
peace and stability in their own city.

In conclusion, the terrain of our policing areas is at times not
friendly to the vehicles we get allocated. However, we are glad to
have heard that a total of 3 379 vehicles is getting procured to
address the shortage in the provinces. We can only believe Limpopo
will also benefit out of this exercise. That will go a long way in
addressing the challenge of shortage of vehicles. I thank you.
[Applause.]

Mr M PETER: Hon Chairperson, members, Minister, Deputy Minister and
guests in the gallery, it is always a privilege to participate in
the debates of the NCOP.

Under the ANC-led government, South Africa has a long-term vision of
an equitable society which is clearly defined by the National
Development Plan, NDP. Our 2030 vision seeks to address the ills of
our colonial past in a programmatic way, where government will be
working in partnership with organs of civil society so as to strike
a deal that seeks to build a future of our country.

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In essence, the NDP seeks to deepen the people‘s contract between
government and citizens as we continue to build a developmental
state. As Eastern Cape, we have a reason to support the people‘s
budget because our province needs adequate deployment of both human
and material resources.

In the province we need an accelerated infrastructure delivery
initiative that will create a conducive environment for police to
work. We have vibrant community policing forum which promotes good
working and friendly relationship between police and communities.
This refers to CPS, street committees and village committees.

Chairperson, it is only under the ANC-led government that a budget
is used as a tool to build a better life for all - unlike under
apartheid government where a budget was used as a tool of
destruction to communities.

Under apartheid, large sums of money were directed to security
forces, the then South African Defence Force, SANDF, and hit squads
to follow and eliminate those who were in the forefront of
liberation movements.

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I hope the conservatives and right wing elements within the ranks of
the DA still remember these destructions. Eastern Cape communities
were not exempted from this form of destruction by virtue that the
province was also a base of political activism.

In 2016, Eastern Cape South African Police Services, Saps, embarked
in a process of realigning 27 clusters which were reduced to 22.
This was a strategy to reorganise its strength of police operations
so that they render an effective and efficient service.

The recent quarterly crime statistics released by Eastern Cape Saps
show a downwards trend with other criminal activities, but murder
and car hijacking remain stubborn. Murder in most cases is
attributed to gangsterism and taxi violence in Port Elizabeth and
Mthatha respectively.

Eastern Cape Saps introduced a strategy to fight gangsterism and
drug trafficking in the northern areas of Port Elizabeth because
there is a toxic combination between these two. We hope that this
budget will reinforce the roll out of this strategy which takes a
form of a multiparty disciplinary team as it involves many
departments.

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Chairperson, through the Intergovernmental Relations and
collaboration within government departments the security cluster
must deal with St Albans Correctional Centre... can somebody give me
water?

... St Albans Correctional Centre in Port Elizabeth and Wellington
in Mthatha whereby both centres have become headquarters of
gangsterism and taxi violence respectively. Prisoners in these two
centres appear to have a freeway of communicating with the outside
world and this result to the elimination of witnesses against some
of the gangs in prisons.

The NDP is emphatic that people must feel safe at home and at work,
they must enjoy a community life freely in their streets where
children play safe outside.

Hon Chairperson, as we continue to professionalise the police
service, every police officer must undergo training on Domestic
Violence Act because violence against women and children appear to
be the most prevalent scourge within our communities.

In conclusion, ANC remains a home to a variety of different
ideological currents hence we continue to enjoy support and the

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hegemony of nationalists, traditionalists and socialists. As a
result ANC remains a broad church within society.

No amount of threat will ever distract us from our development
trajectory. The theory of development is explicit that any
development path is not an instant exercise, but it is rather an
ongoing programme which needs to be sustained.

Even in the first world countries, development trajectories have
never been an event in any case. Therefore, this budget must ensure
that police are well resourced and act professionally, value their
work, serve communities, safe guard lives and property. Thank you
Chair.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, hon Minister Mbalula, hon Deputy
Minister Mkongi, hon members, MEC of Limpopo for police, members of
the SA Police Service, crime has always been an area of concern for
the ANC. In the ANC‘s 2014 election manifesto, it committed itself
to promoting safer communities and giving special attention to
fighting crime. The ANC noted in its 2012 strategy and tactics
document that there should be promotion of social cohesion and that
there should also be deliberate collective action to promote a
positive role by the institution of the family.

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The ANC-led government has consolidated partnerships across society
to strengthen social cohesion and ensure that our country achieves
its values of a caring society.

In the two decades since the transition of democracy and the
establishment of a democratic Police Service, South Africa continues
to experience an alarmingly high rate of crime, particularly violent
crime. This is evident, for instance, by the successive increases in
contact crime especially murder, with a year-on-year comparison
highlighting a 4,9% increase in the 2015-16 financial year.

Violence against vulnerable and marginalised groups remains
stubbornly high, compromising the ability of these individuals to
play an active role in their communities and society at large. The
SA Police Service continues to ensure that the barriers to the
reporting of cases of rape, sexual abuse and domestic violence are
sufficiently addressed in order to report and minimise secondary
victimisation.

Seemingly intractable challenges, such as gangsterism, drugs and
alcohol abuse, underpinned by increasingly sophisticated and violent

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organised criminal enterprises, have resulted in our communities
being mired in a cycle of violence and trauma.

Despite these challenges, the SAPS has made significant strides in
dealing with serious and violent crime. This includes continued
emphasis on reducing the number of firearms through focused
operations, and the more stringent application of the legislative
framework on firearms management control.

The 2015 study on firearms control and management recognised the
need for a multipronged approach in dealing with the demand for and
use of the Firearms Control Act and other means of self-defence.
Inherent to addressing the challenges is the need for ongoing
research into the issues of crime and violence to identify the root
cause and find solutions, as well as a concise strategy to tackle
crime and the restructuring of the Central Firearms Registry.

It is, however, accepted that building safe and resilient
communities requires a broader focus that extends beyond the purview
of the police. This requires addressing risk factors at all levels
of society through deliberate co-operation and collaboration among
state and nonstate actors.

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The 2016 White Paper on Policing and 2016 White Paper on Safety and
Security provide appropriate policy frameworks for achieving these
goals. The White Paper on Policing provides a focused emphasis on
areas of responsibility of the SAPS and deals with a professional,
modern and demilitarised Police Service that is community centred,
accountable and human-rights based.

The premise of the White Paper on Safety and Security is that
deliberate co-operation and collaboration between departments would
enhance policy coherence, providing the basis for building safe and
resilient communities through embedding systems and processes that
would advance the goal of ensuring the safety of all as the basis
for human development, improved quality of life and enhanced
productivity. The role and responsibility of all key role-players
are clarified to ensure that departments assume responsibility for
safety within their areas of competence. The White Paper also draws
on the NDP by advocating the development of an active citizenry to
support the co-creation of solutions from the ground. The National
Development Plan, NDP, denotes building safer communities as a key
objective.

Recent news events about the killing of our women and children have
made headlines. As a society, we should be ashamed that women and

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children are murdered at an alarming rate in postapartheid South
Africa. The SA Police Service plays a critical role in protecting
and serving the citizens of the Republic. However, the manner in
which the investigation over the disappearance of Courtney Peters
was conducted was really an abomination. The SA Police Service must
be well resourced and equipped to tackle this abuse against women
and children and it must conduct investigations in the delicate and
required manner.

South Africa has taken steps to ensure that there is integrated and
effective management of the border environment. The pressure to do
so comes from the rapid increase in the number of people and goods
that cross the border and from the need to manage the resulting
risks and exploit the opportunities. The risks are multiplied by the
rise in transnational crime, conflict and food insecurity.

The SA National Defence Force, SANDF, has been mandated to secure
the border line. The Department of Home Affairs has an inspectorate
that is specifically charged with enforcing the Immigration Act and
works closely with the SAPS, the State Security Agency, the SANDF
and the SA Revenue Service.

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The Independent Investigate Directorate exercises its functions in
accordance with the Independent Police Investigative Directorate
Act, or Ipid Act, independently from the SAPS and the Municipal
Police Service, or the MPS. The thrust of the work of the
directorate is to investigate serious and priority crimes allegedly
committed by members of the SAPS and MPS. This includes a greater
focus on systemic corruption.

The Ipid Act enhances the directorate‘s investigative capacity and
creates an opportunity for a strong, independent oversight body
which will, in consequence, contribute towards the achievement of a
Police Service that operates in line with the spirit of the
Constitution.

The Ipid‘s ultimate goal is to contribute towards the achievement of
Vision 2030, as outlined in the NDP, which is that people living in
South Africa feel safe and enjoy a community life free of fear. A
Police Service that is trusted by the community means the building
of a Police Service that is professional, serves the community,
safeguards lives and property without discrimination and respects
the right to equality and justice.

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The Ipid‘s strong management and skilled investigators contribute
towards the realisation of the Ipid‘s strategic outcome-oriented
goals identified for the 2013 to 2018 strategic plan period. The
other factors that will contribute positively towards the
realisation of these goals are powers bestowed upon Ipid
investigators as peace officers provided for in the Criminal
Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1997.

The work of Ipid takes place within an environment of increased
incidents of public protests. These incidents led to an increase in
SAPS-MPS involvement in crowd-control management, which, in most
cases, results in unintended consequences. Given the recent public
protests, it is clear that these actions influence significantly the
overall picture of death as a result of police action, complaints
relating to the discharge of official firearms by police officers
and complaints of torture or assault against police officers in the
execution of their duties. These developments are likely to further
increase pressure on Ipid and its core business, as outlined in the
Ipid Act.

The current lack of human resource capacity and the high staff
turnover pose a significant threat to the fulfilment of the
directorate‘s legislative mandate and, consequently, to the

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achievement of its strategic outcomes and goals. The mandatory
reporting and investigating of serious and priority crimes allegedly
committed by members of the SAPS and the MPS have resulted in an
increased workload for the directorate.

In order to address the aforesaid pressure and to ensure that Ipid
complies fully with its legislative mandate and added reporting
responsibilities, additional resources will have to be found over
the 2013 to 2018 period. The current economic climate and the
allocation of funding might bring about additional challenges in
this regard. Nevertheless, the directorate is committed to
delivering on its legislative mandate in order to contribute towards
the achievement of the ultimate outcome, namely a Police Service
that is trusted by the community. The ANC supports this Budget Vote.
[Applause.]

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Hon Chair, we should a crime-free country. We
have got the police and the hawks to fights and prevent crime. Yet,
a disease of violence has been unleashed against our women and
children while we have a President accused of 783 crimes and failing
to uphold and protect the constitution. So rife has state capture
become that it is synonymous with the current ANC-led government ...
[Interjections.]

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Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, I rise on a point of order: The speaker
makes an assertion that suggests that the President was convicted.
There are no charges against the President before any court of law.
There are no charges as we speak for the President before any court
of law. So, that is misleading!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Engelbrecht, refrain from
presenting something that is not factual.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Thank you, Mr Chair. Yet even more disturbing is
when the state organs created to fight crime, are fighting each
other. SA Police Service and Independent Police Investigative
Directorate, Ipid, are like dogs fighting over a single bone: A bone
of position and power, where police Commissioner Phahlane is a
suspect, doing everything possible to prevent Ipid from continuing
its investigation against him.

So it‘s no wonder we need Ipid — an independent organisation,
responsible for investigating complaints against the SA Police and
municipal police services. In spite of this critical mandate, Ipid
faces serious budget constraints which will negatively affects its

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ability to fulfil its primary mandate of overseeing systemic
corruption in fighting police criminality.

Ipid, as ultimate watchdog, should be free from interference from SA
Police Service. Yet, while women and children are being murdered and
raped, SA Police Service is interfering with Ipid‘s mandate. The
unwarranted attack against Ipid, with a mandate to fight criminality
and abuse of power in the police, puts Ipid in crossfire. Ipid
appears to be a lone rider against the corruption, abuse of power
and rape of our resources.

It appears that this is about positions that relate to power, money
and control over other people. It is imperative that the people of
South Africa trust and believe in the police and their leadership is
beyond reproach. As head of the SA Police Service, Phahlane should
be an example of a model citizen and allow IPID to conduct a full
investigation without interference into, amongst others, circumspect
payment like an R80 000 stereo system.

Phahlane‘s continued refusal to co-operate with Ipid is therefore
deeply concerning. The DA reiterates its call for Acting National
Police Commissioner, Khomotso Phahlane, to be suspended by the
Police Minister. As always, it is the South African public that

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suffer while there are police officers involved in underhand
dealings that continue to escalate crime.

We need to ensure that Ipid does not only have an operational but
also a financial mandate. However, the sustainability of Ipid has
been put into question with the current funding at a bare minimum.
Ipid has been requesting additional funding to complete the critical
part of the Farlam commission. Yet, in a most unfortunate move,
R4 million has been moved from its the budget baseline to pay for
other unfunded expenditures.

We must ensure the sustainability and independence of Ipid with a
sufficient budget to ensure that they remain the super watchdog,
winning the war against crime in the ranks of the police and rooting
out crooked crops. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister,
hon members, the Department of Police is one of the most important
pillars of our state in ensuring that our hard-earned democracy is
efficiently guided. The application and practical implementation of
the rule of law rests heavily in the hands of this department, of
course, in co-operation with other sister departments in the
security cluster.

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Therefore, the safeguarding of the principles of fairness,
impartiality and protection from abuse of state resources within
this department is of utmost importance. It is for this, and other
reasons, that the IFP strongly condemns the cooked arrests in the
Nquthu Local Municipality. The IFP views these arrests as abuse of
state power by those who were inclined to make the IFP look bad, and
to intimidate the people of Nquthu so that they could vote in a
particular direction.

This was a ploy in futility as the IFP scored a resounding victory
of winning 14 wards out of 17 wards. [Applause.] The IFP moved from
15 seats, obtained on 3 August 2016, to 19 seats in 2017; giving the
IFP an outright majority in the municipality. We do wish to applaud
the members of the Police who were deployed to the Nquthu byelections yesterday who actually performed their duties fairly,
without fear or favour.

Hon Minister, you have actually inherited from your predecessor a
department that is fraught with insurmountable challenges of a
legacy of managerial instability. This department has moved from one
scandal to the other, in a litany of criminal and fraudulent
activities and allegations by the top echelons of the department.

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The late former National Commissioner Selebi - may his soul rest in
peace - exited unceremoniously after a criminal charge. The former
National Commissioner, hon Bheki Cele - now Deputy Minister - exited
unceremoniously after a corruption scandal. The current Commissioner
Riah Phiyega is on suspension pending final outcomes of the
investigations into her ability or inability to hold office.

As we speak, the provincial commissioner for KwaZulu-Natal,
Commissioner Mamumnye Ngobeni is on suspension and has actually been
on suspension for close to a year or more on the allegations of
corruption. The current Acting National Commissioner is involved in
an ugly spat with the Director of Ipid. This prevailing public spat
between the Acting National Commissioner and the Director of IPID
does not augur well for safety and security, and justice activities,
in the country.

The allegations by Ipid that the Acting National Commissioner is
interfering and tampering with investigations pertaining to his own
alleged corruption charges, to the extent of threatening witnesses
and investigators are matters of serious concern for safety,
security and justice in the country.

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These matters, Hon Minister, must be attended to and be resolved
speedily. The activities of the department must be seen to be
operating in a manner which shows that no one is above the law in
the country. In the same vein, the public spat between then hon
Minister and the former Director of the hawks is another matter of
serious concern which requires a speedy and logical conclusion.

This is the picture of the department you have inherited, hon
Minister. One cannot tell whether these happenings have had a direct
impact to crime activities increasing so much in our country or not,
especially the abuse of children and women, the murders of children
and women, the escalating hijackings involving cash-in-transit
heists and other criminal activities.

Under the circumstances, the IFP wishes you and the hon Deputy
Minister well in your new portfolios. The fight against crime in
South Africa needs all hands on deck by all relevant stakeholders in
order for South Africans and our visitors to feel safe and to be
safe.

When also considering that the consequences of increased crime
levels leave behind devastating effects to the economy of the
country, and the efforts to grow the economy and decrease

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unemployment, this department has a crucial role to play. Therefore,
hon Minister let us not walk into the negative effects of crime
blindfolded but we need you to pull all the punches in order to add
value to the positive programmes of the country.

We need to have a police service personnel that will be focussed
more into reducing and eliminating crime in our country, and not a
police top management that most its time fighting over departmental
internal issues or spends time in court instead of the criminals
they should be bringing to book.

The IFP has previously engaged your predecessor, hon Minister, over
the lack of visible and effective policing in townships and rural
areas of South Africa. It is a pity that 23 years into our freedom
and democracy, policing has still not transformed to move quickly to
visible policing in these areas.

Another area of concern to the IFP is the not-so professional public
order policing in our country in dealing with protest actions that
turn violent. The country has experienced an increase in the
unnecessary loss of life at the hands of the police due to this
professional inadequacy in the country. With the number of public

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protests increasing in our country, it is important that function of
policing be perfected in the department.

It is also equally important that the department comes out to
clearly clarify as to: Who qualifies for what protection in the
country. Recently, the country has seen increasing instances of
complains about some individuals and private citizens receiving the
benefit of state security for which it is claimed they do not
qualify.

The IFP does wish to applaud our sons and daughters, fathers and
mothers, the women and men in blue, especially those who are
wholeheartedly dedicated to the service they provide for our
country. While there will always be complains here and there about
some issues, as IFP we note that the majority of our police
personnel are people who are dedicated to the call of their duty.
For this, we say bravo!

But to those who get involved in criminal activities whilst they are
supposed to be stopping them, we call on the department to be swift
in removing such potatoes from the pack. I thank you.

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Mr M T MHLANGA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and the Deputy
Minister, hon members of the legislature, hon members of the NCOP
guests in the gallery and all protocols observed I greet you. Hon
Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. South Africans state
of peace and stability since 1994, our departure point as the ANC is
that South Africa is relevantly stable compared to many countries of
the African Continent and the world. Despite our relative stability
our security assessment identifies economic weaknesses as one of the
key threats to the national security and it is a threat because it
is at the centre of the triple challenges of poverty, unemployment
and inequality. South African economy performance continues to
weaken in 2016/17.

The situation was aggravated by the continued sluggish economic
growth in major economics. The global economic is facing major
headwinds and is struggling to attain higher growth path. The growth
trend in the emerging economy is recovering in countries such as
China, Brazil and Russia. Hon members peace and stability is
maintained within an cute economic environment owning to the
country‗s sluggish GDP, gross domestic product, growth and
persistent contradiction this is exacerbated by the long standing
triple challenges of poverty, unemployment and inequality. Central

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to those challenges is the slow economic transformation which
continues to undermine the political transformation as realised.

The back-to-basics approach is but one part of the strategic
objective of the SAPS, South African Police Service, which
identified none nine dimensions to improve Saps performance with
regard to the prevention, detecting and investigation of crime, and
the key dimensions are; one, the transformation of the police
services; two, compliance with the fundamental principles of
policing; three, a culture of performance management and
accountability; four, enhanced police visibility; five, thorough and
responsible investigation; six, efficient use of resource in support
of crime investigation; seven, optimal use of crime intelligence in
support of protective and reactive policing; eight, targeted and
informed deployment of operations resource; and finally,
collaborative and consultative approach to policing. Those members
will make the Saps we need in South Africa and it will make our
police services more efficient and responsive.

Hon Chair, activities of the foreign forces seeking to undermine our
revolutionary advancement and foreign intelligence services, there
is a concerted effort many foreign state and non-state actors who
have launched an aggressive onslaught to the former liberation

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movements in our region and the ANC as a ruling party is not an
exemption. In addition to the economic weaknesses, our security
assessment identified the activities of the foreign intelligence
services as an overarching threat undermining our national security
interest. During the past year they continued their efforts in close
collaboration with negative domestic forces to undermine our
democratic and constitutional development.

The modus operandi of the FIS, Fidelity Information Services, is
through penetration, infiltration, manipulation and to ultimately
subversion in the quest to advance and promote their national
interests. Those attacks may result in the diversion of governance
and there is a possibility that the broader purpose of government
will be hijacked by those with ulterior agenda motives. Hon members,
the above mentioned situation bring threats to the authority of the
state. In terms of the threat, our security assessment identifies
seven of them and those are: violent community protest, violent
industrial action, instability in the education sector, instability
in the transport sector, cyber security challenges, undue activities
of private security industry and inability to secure information and
critical infrastructure.

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Although community protests are provided for in the country‗s
legislative framework, of national security concern is the planned
violence accompanying the protests. However, since 1994, the
triggers of community protests have not changed and these include
demand for water, electricity, housing and employment opportunities.
Emerging triggers include demarcation issues and the demand for free
quality higher education for all. To this end a national security
concern only arise when people plan to be violent during such
protest.

Chair, we must emphasise that some of us participated in liberating
the country. We fought against the oppressive regime. We will
remember the days when the ANC Youth League was banned. We had YCO,
Youth Council Organisation, SAYCO, South African Youth Congress you name them - and all those youth formations. We never burnt any
schools or libraries because we knew that those infrastructure
facilities were there for our children and for the future of South
Africa. On that note, we are really cautioning our society, our
community and the youth not to misuse the Regulation of Gatherings
Act wrongly. They must use it correctly.

In terms of threats to the well being and safety of South Africans
our assessment identifies four of them and those are: the non

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traditional security threats; water, food and energy. No empty
stomach knows politics. An empty stomach can do anything even to
kill or be a mercenary. So, where there is no work, no development
and food security there would be crime. The second threat to the
well being and safety of South Africans is international terrorism.
You will understand when we speak of international terrorism. Today,
we have all formations of riots so-called MDM, Mass Democratic
Movement, structures or foundations that are marching to destabilise
the stability of the states. They are all of course funded by
foreign intelligence forces. The last threat is transnational
organised crime narcotics. These are the key objectives. I heard one
member saying the Saps doesn‘t know their duties and work. We as the
ANC define unto them what they should do.

In terms of the organized crimes, a worrying trend is the
unprecedented growth of gangs and their activities. They are now
fully operational in all the provinces, though they are prevalent in
Western Cape, Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng and Kwazulu-Natal.
In the transnational crime acts issues of human trafficking, people
smuggling, illegal trafficking in and consumption of narcotics
remain prevalent in these provinces. In these threats, foreign
nationals remain central in the perpetration of these criminal acts.
We know that people from other countries are not given political

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asylum in our country it is easy for them to do and orchestrate
crime because they are not documented. We really need to pick up and
bring some measures in your Population Registration Act.

Chairperson, out of the dimensions above, dimensions 1 and 9 bring
me closer to the functions of the civilian secretarial and request
the Minister to speed up the full funding model, a well resource
infrastructure and the issue of CPF, community policing forum and
CSF, community safety forum, to be functional. We call on the local
municipality and provinces to priorities the public safety matter in
their Budgets. Hon Minister, our focus should be to put measures and
more focus on the collaborative consultative approach to policing
these systems and comprehensive involvement of all relevant
stockholders in all aspect of policing. The metro police and
municipal law enforcement or municipal policing -

as outline in

Government-Gazette, notice R209 of part 5 of the schedule - law
enforcement officers are integrated into all interventions in
respect of the protection of person and property generally and
particularly in the context of land invasion and protest action.
Conferring of full power on them will definitely enhance the state
ability to deal effectively with the current spate of such unlawful
activities.

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We must put more target focus on speeding up the process of
finalising legislative matters which are; Animal Movement Control
Bill; which must also be speeded up, Critical Infrastructure Bill,
Fire Arms Control Amendment Bill, South African Police Amendment
Bill and the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against
terrorist and related activities Amendment Bill. Minister, we
believe that very soon we will be dealing with these Bills and that
your department will be able to speed up the above mentioned Bills.
Hon Chairperson, in conclusion, revolutionary cadres should be
quotation in regard to the theory of liberal, curious bunch of
nonconformist, who explain their participation in negative terms
such as; do-gooders that goes under all sorts of names; liberals and
leftists who argue that they are not responsible for white racism
and the country inhumanity to the society in particular the black
people, working class and the peasants, our masses.

Those are the people who claim that they too feel the oppression
just acutely as black people. Therefore, they should be joining and
involving themselves in the black man‗s struggle. In short, those
are the people who say that they have black souls wrapped up in
white skins. History in South Africa is a curious one, the role of
the white liberal in the black man‗s revolutions. This question
often crosses my mind, it deals with the problem faced by our black

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leaders whether they are Africans, Indian or coloured in working
within the system being the holly white racist apartheid structure
build up by the national ... Thank you, Chair. We support the
Budget. [Time expired.]

Ms M WENGER (Western Cape): Good afternoon Chairperson. Minister
Mbalula has recently taken office and we wish him well in his new
portfolio. Safety is something that underpins almost everything that
we do and the police are an integral part of ensuring the safety for
our citizens.

The Minister mentioned some key anchors in his budget speech, some
of which are to be encouraged and some of which to be discouraged.
In the first instance, we have seen several policy failures which do
need to be addressed. It is then good news that the Community Police
Forum, CPF, policy is going to be reviewed, it is long overdue. The
CPF currently operates under the interim regulations of 2001,
regulations which have remained interim for almost two decades. So,
it is time that the CPFs be given proper attention and policy
guidance. We thank the Minister for giving this the appropriate
attention.

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We also welcome the reservist recruitment drive, but here again
there has been a policy failure in that the reservist policy is too
restrictive and it excludes large portions of our population. I
believe that by excluding the unemployed citizens from volunteering
to be reservists, it is unethical and likely unconstitutional. We
would be able to recruit far more police reservists than the
Minister‘s target, if we were simply to amend the policy.

The Civilian Secretariat for Police, which is largely responsible
for this kind of policy development, receives a 12% budget increase.
Now, considering that the Secretariat relies on the provinces to do
much of its monitoring and which, as it stands, is an unfunded
mandate, we hope that the Minister will commit part of this budget
to provinces as well.

We also welcome the Minister‘s announcement of the R558 million for
the building of new police stations. The problem however is that
there will be no new posts allocated for manpower to go to these new
stations. You will have to rob Peter to pay Paul and take officers
away from existing stations to fill these new ones. So, when people
ask for more police stations, what they actually asking for are more
policing personnel closer to them. They are not asking for buildings
that are half capacitated.

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My colleague spoke about the need for decentralising policing.
Because to centralise policing is to alienate people from local
communities and the reason why the single Police Service is a bad
idea and would be a mistake.

The drafters of our Constitution intended for a single nationally
run Police Service and locally run Municipal Police Services. The
National Development Plan, NDP, tells us that South Africa requires
a multiplicity of anticorruption agencies. A multiplicity of
agencies provides crucial checks and balances and a system of
resilience against interference. The same is true for policing. A
variety of agencies is required to provide checks and balances in
policing and create the systemic resilience to interference or
corruption. Municipal and traffic police should therefore receive
greater autonomy and not less.

Chairperson, I do not think that the Minister has been entirely
upfront with South Africans about this budget. He just said, and I
quote, ―Adequate human resource capacity will be established at
local level with specific focus on the Visible Policing and the
Detective environment.‖

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He also said earlier in the week that ―Visible Policing and
Detective Services programmes... are the department‘s core service
delivery programmes.‖

This would lead us to believe that visible policing and the
detective services are a priority. But why then are we cutting
police personnel in Visible Police, Vispol and in detectives? Over
the next two years our police numbers will shrink from 194 000 to
191 000 and all of those posts that are being done away with on
levels one to 10 and the bulk come exactly from the so-called
priority programmes: Visible Police, Vispol and detectives. But not
to worry, the senior managers, the generals, will all keep their
jobs and so will the VIP Protection Services that guard the
Minister. The average South African however will enjoy less police
presence and more crimes to be investigated by fewer detectives.

My counterpart from the Eastern Cape said we need the police to be
properly resourced, but unfortunately this budget does not do that.
Chairperson, we simply cannot cut police numbers. Already 75% of
Cape Town‘s police stations have less number of officers serving
their communities than the national average. Twenty one of our
stations in this city have less than one officer for every 500
citizens and all of these areas are crime-ridden communities.

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However Chairperson, numbers aside, the plan to reduce police
numbers will be devastating for the real and lived experiences of
residents of South Africa. Policing is a national government
function, how will the national government explain: To residents in
rural towns such as Touws River or Albertinia where the police are
so thinly spread that there is only one officer on duty at the
station?

Under-resourcing means the CPFs are unable to perform their basic
oversight duties and check that detained persons in cells are being
treated properly. Why do you ask? it is because there is no officers
to accompany them to their cells and short of closing the police
station completely to assist the CPF members, the CPF is simply
cannot do their important and legislative work.

In Klapmuts, the solitary police officer on duty was a sitting duck
for criminals that robbed the station. He lost his life because his
station was under-resourced.

What are we going to say to the residents of Lavender Hill where the
Steenberg Police Station has insufficient personnel to patrol all of
its sectors and the results is that Lavender Hill is the sector that

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gets neglected and is where gangsters are reaping havoc? What will
the government tell the residents of Manenberg where the police
station as I stand here today, has 50 less officers than what it did
a decade ago? What are we going to tell the residents of Khayelitsha
that already has the one of the worst police population ratios in
our province? How will the national government explain to the people
of the Western Cape that they can expect fewer officers in the
coming years? At least Minister Nhleko was going to give us 20
additional posts in the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, not
reduce posts.

The United Nations has guideline for 220 police officers per 100 000
of the population. Research shows that anything less than this
number of officers serving a community means that the police have no
tangible impact on crime whatsoever, because there is not enough
manpower. In the Western Cape alone, we have at least 29 areas that
have below this 220 thresh-hold and these are predominantly black
township areas. Why is the Police Department neglecting these areas
that need policing the most?

In Nyanga, Harare, Gugulethu, Khayelitsha and Mfuleni there are two
or less officers per murder per year. These areas combined make up a
third of all the murders in our province. Are you telling us that

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the National Police Department, which has to this point perpetuated
apartheid style deprivation for poor coloured and black areas is now
ramping up its programme to ensure that these communities have even
less police resources? It is a disgrace! Police in some cases are so
poorly resourced that what is being done to them borders on
negligence.

The Western Cape has only has one flying squad to serve our entire
province. The number of officers assigned to this unit has been
halved since 2011. We then had 200 officers. We are now down to just
90 which is a 55% reduction.

Even our Canine Unit has half the number of dogs it out to have. And
when we look at the detectives the situation is just as dire. We
note that 10 stations in the Western Cape that have the highest
proportion of gang-related murders, also have detectives that have
more than quadruple the detective to case dog norm. In Nyanga,
detectives work with preposterous case loads of between 100 and 150
cases per detective when they should be working with 20 that are per
norm. How can we then be proposing to reduce detective numbers in
the MTEF?

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The national government is essentially taking money and manpower
away from detectives and investigations yet keeps an already intact
for VIP protection to protect politicians instead of prioritising
resources to benefit the vulnerable. There is simply no justifiable
reason for this. We cannot prioritise the personnel and post a VIP
security over detectives who will find and prosecute the real and
devastating crimes in our communities.

What does this budget say about the national government‘s priorities
for citizens who have been a victim of crime and whose matter was
not properly investigated because their detective was overburdened
with cases?

What does it say to families whose loved ones were murdered, where
no one was convicted in eight out of 10 cases? What does it say
about the dismal 3% conviction rate for gang-related murders? What
does it say to women that have been raped; and what does it say to
South Africans about the ANC government‘s priorities for families
that live in fear because their homes have been violated? Thank you.
[Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much. Chairperson,
members of the NCOP, our guests I want to greet you this morning.

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Today marks 55 days since we were appointed into office by the
President of the Republic of South Africa, His Excellency, Mr Jacob
Zuma. Immediately after our appointment on the 31 March 2017, the
President gave us the following clear marching orders; these are the
following marching orders; Firstly, make the people of South Africa
feel safe at all times - Secondly; make South Africa a safer place
to be and to live in - Thirdly, boost the moral of the police for
the better - Fourthly, inspire hope amongst our people and fifth,
declare war against criminals and criminality in the Republic of
South Africa.

As we celebrate the centenary of the birth of Oliver Reginald Tambo,
we are called upon to intensify our war against crime and
criminality. We would contribute meaningful towards the building of
a better South Africa, Africa and a better world that is free from
crime, corruption and violence against women, children, elderly
people and people living with disabilities. As we mark Africa day
today, we must bring hope to our people.

We realise that this command calls for the speedily implementation
of the National Development Plan, the Back-to-Basics approach and
the resolutions of the ANC – our glorious movement. To this end, we
took our fight to the doorsteps of criminals. We did this through

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various means which includes the scanning of the crime environment,
statistical analysis, stakeholder engagement and actual invading of
criminal hotspots across the country especially in the Western Cape
Province.

In the last few days, we invaded their comfort zones on the streets
of Elsies River, Bella, Nyanga, Soshanguve, East London, Fort
Beaufort, Umqanduli, Umtata and Umlazi. We did this by undertaking
roadblocks, unannounced visits and other methods. Hon members our
energies are very high – Our oomph is growing – Our zest is
unstoppable and our exuberance is unimaginable. We are moving at the
pace of a cheetah whilst using the wisdom and tactics of the fish
eagle. We will invade all the crime hotspots in our country without
neither a search warrant nor permission from criminals. We must take
the lives of criminals and make it unbearable.

Hon Michalakis, as we have pointed out in the NA on Tuesday
23 May 2017, that figure presented by Statistics SA on crime
confirmed that significant progress has been made to push back the
frontier of crimes and criminality in South Africa during 2011 and
2016 Statistics SA. Amongst others, this Statistics SA notes that
the main challenge is to address the negative perceptions of our

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people in crime as they believe that crime situation has
deteriorated over the years.

Household crime rate has dropped from 12,1% in 2011 to 7% in 2016
for male-headed households. Home robbery in particular dropped from
2,4% in 2010 to 1,1% in 2015. However, the rate of reporting home
robbery to the police increased from 57,1% in 2010 to 64,8% in 201516. Police data also shows that the total number of home robberies
reported has a proportion population increase between 2011 and 2016.
This is not rumour-mongering, it is hard facts. We need to intensify
our fights against stock theft in order to address to stock theft.

We have also ordered a review and roll-out of the stock theft
projects which was once implemented in the inTsolo area in the
Eastern Cape. The implementation of this stock theft project follows
an integrated and multidisciplinary approach. At the same time we
need to focus on violence. In order to focus on violence, the
department will intensify the crime combating strategy through the
Back-to-Basics approach. The traditional leaders also raised their
concerns with us especially about the issues relating to their own
securities. A special task team is also looking amongst other things
at the physical resource allocation for kingdoms and other areas
that are crime thorn like Samora Machel in Nyanga and Khayelitsha.

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We therefore appeal to other sister departments, private sector and
other spheres of government to assist on these strategic
initiatives. The national unrest that we see on campuses,
universities and in our schools is a cause for concern and need to
be attended to immediately. We have begun a process of visiting
these institutions of higher learning through the visit to Walter
Sisulu University in Umtata where last year medicine students have
been stabbed and brutally killed. I will be conveying my suggestions
and interventions to the Deputy Minister of Higher Education, Mr
Manana to find a way of intervening in these institutions in
bringing law and order to allow conducive conditions for learning to
happen. As part of its response to … at institutions of learning,
the Ministry of Police will convene a national school and campus
safety summit to be held on the 12 and 14 July 2017 at the
University of the Western Cape in Bellville. The summit is aimed
towards creating safe and crime free learning spaces in our
communities. We intend to convene a national youth crime prevention
summit ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Michalakis why are you
standing?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you hon House Chair ...

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: My time please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I am going to attend to
the time. Don‘t worry hon Deputy Minister.

Mr G MICHALAKIS:

May I make my point?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat hon
Deputy Minister? Yes you can make your point.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you hon House Chairperson. Is the Deputy
Minister prepared to take a question on these statistics?
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, Order! Members. Deputy
Minister are you ready to take a question?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: I am prepared to talk. Let me ...
What would ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, are you
ready to take a question?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: No, Next week when we are in the NCOP
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, he is not ready. Take
your seat. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Continue hon Deputy
Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: What would the people of the Western
Cape say? Especially people of Nyanga when the city police does not
respond to their cries? When the city police only response to the
cries of white people in the city of Cape Town? What will the dying
youth in Khayelitsha will say when the provincial government of the
Western Cape distributes ... the resources into Sea Point and not to
Khayelitsha?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister can you
take your seat? Hon Engelbrecht why are you standing?
[Interjections.] Hon Deputy Minister why are you standing?

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Hon Chair thank you. I am standing on a point of
order that the Deputy Minister is lying to this House.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No ...

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Can I just explain why because the Metro Police
to enforce bylaws they don‘t enforce the criminal act.
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members order! Hon member
can you take your seat? Hon members, no! I don‘t need any
assistance. Hon Engelbrecht you are out of order. You are debating
with the speaker at the podium. We have given you an opportunity.
Please continue hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: I think I must teach the DA MPs the
bylaws of the Western Cape. I was born here - I know them – I read
them everyday. So if you don‘t know them it is not my problem. You
must read. You don‘t read that is your problem. What will the youth
of Umfuleni say when you go around and not ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, can you
take your seat?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: No Chairperson, he is not going to
tell me to sit down. He is not the Chairperson of this House. You
are the Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon member you are out of
order. Allow me to run the meeting. It‘s not your responsibility to
tell him to take his seat. I have been consistent ...
[Interjections.] Hon Deputy Minister can you take your seat so that
I can address him first? I am not recognising you. I want to address
you first. I have been consistently making it a point that he is
taking a seat whenever a member is raising a point of order. It‘s
not your responsibility to tell him to sit down. You are out of
order. So can you raise your point of order?

Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you hon chair. The hon member is speaking
directly to the members and not through the Chair. And secondly, he
goes and point fingers like he has just done to me. He is not
allowed to point his fingers. I know apparently he was brought up
somewhere but this is certainly not the education he got in the
Western Cape. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister can you
continue with your speech?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, we have different postures when
we speak. [Interjections.] But in conclusion Deputy Chairperson, ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister can you
take your seat?

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much hon Chair. I am rising on a
point of order. Is it parliamentary for a member to say to a
speaker, sit down and shut up and nonsense? That was hon Hattingh.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, I am addressing
you? Have you said what is said by the hon Dlamini?

Mr C HATTINGH: I did not say what she said. What I did say is sit
down and shut up, that‘s what I said and I withdraw the shut.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, can you
withdraw without conditions?

Mr C HATTINGH: I withdraw that I said ...

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, hon members
[Interjections.] Hon Hattingh, can you withdraw without explanations
or conditions?

Mr C HATTINGH: I withdraw what I said.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Take your seat.
Continue hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: In conclusion Chairperson, as we
mover forward to do our work I would like to take this opportunity
to thank the Minister of Police, Comrade Fikile Mbalula ... My
support staff and the people of the Republic of South Africa for
giving me this opportunity to present our policy statement to this
House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister can you
take your seat?

Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you hon Chair. Earlier today this Chairperson
ruled that members should be addressed as honourable and not as
anything else, specifically not as comrade. [Interjections.]

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh there is nothing
inappropriate that was said by the Deputy Minsiter. Can you continue
Deputy Minister?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Comrade Vutha, we must collectively
say to this House, siyabulela, thank you and baie dankie. Thank you
very much comrades. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, before hon
Magwebu takes the podium, let me remind you that heckling is allowed
but you can‘t drown the speaker. You are protected hon Magwebu.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Thank you for the protection Chairperson. I really
appreciate that and I think I need it. Hon Chairperson, hon members,
hon Minister and Deputy Minister, Executive Director, Mr R McBride
and our men and women in blue, this afternoon I appreciate the
opportunity.

Something that unites us as South Africans of all races is the fear
of crime. Hon Minister, just a quick recap. From April to December
2016 – this is the crime statistics. Just over 9months, 960 000
serious crimes have been committed in this country. Therefore, on
average it means, 3550 serious crimes are committed in this country

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per day. Break it down again, it means that 148 serious crimes are
committed per hour. We have a situation - We have a serious problem.
We need to be sober about this and we need to reflect and see how we
deal with this scourge of serious crimes.

These are not just contact crimes, but they are serious crimes that
are accompanied by aggravating circumstances, you robbery and
hijackings. We have got a situation.

Minister, I heard you saying, that ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Magwebu, hold on!

Hon

Mthimunye, why are you standing?

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: I needed to request to pose a question to the
member Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Magwebu, are you ready to
take a question?

Mr L V MAGWEBU: I always meet up with him. I‘ll take the question
tomorrow.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, he is not ready.
Continue hon Magwebu.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Minister and Deputy Minister, here is my
question, you said you have declared war against crime – I respect
that. But to declare war is one thing – what we need is to take that
war to the criminals and gain an upper hand. With due respect
Minister, the talk that you are talking is tough talk, but with due
respect, the talk is cheap.

We need to challenge you Minister as we welcome you to this
difficult terrain of running our police services. That you need to
make difficult decisions. Right now, we have got a situation where
the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, and the
South African Police Services, SAPS, are at logger heads. The IPID
alleges interference against the investigation that is conducted
against the acting National Commissioner, General Phahlane.

Be that as it may, the investigation must take its course, there
should be no interference. We challenge you to look into that matter
and make difficult decisions and call Phahlane to order even if it
means to suspend him.

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It is unacceptable that two institutions law enforcement
institutions are at loggerheads and that on its own is a symptom of
a chaos. Therefore, as South Africans, we need to ask ourselves this
question, how can South Africans be safe when men and women that are
supposed to support and protect them are at loggerheads, toe to toe
and are fighting? We have a Minster that needs to take that
difficult decision.

Deputy Minister, you have spoken about taking orders from the
President. With due respect again, if there are orders to be taken,
they are founded in our Constitution not from the President. Our
Constitution enjoins you and other state institutions to make sure
that South Africans are safe. The supreme law is the Constitution
not Mr Zuma. Actually, I‘m worried that you taking instructions and
orders from Zuma because, Zuma is the President who is compromised,
who has corrupt relationships. Somebody must challenge me today.

There is a court case where Schabir Shaik was the accused and the
sitting Judge - is a decided case - where Zuma has been said to have
corrupt relationships. I‘ m saying this in this House with
confidence. We cannot take orders from a man who has got corrupt
relationships. We will take orders, if we have to take orders from
the Constitution of this land.

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Hon Ximbi, Ximba kaSxolothi, you have raised serious matters. And I
agree with you sir that SAPS must be capacitated. It must be given
resources and the vehicles, I accept that. But you speak like an
outsider, this is an ANC-led government. This problem you have
created.

Let me remind you, I have written a question to the former

Minister of Police, N Nhleko, not you Mr Mbalula – you were not
there. Here is what I have received, 8000 vehicles nationally are
lying somewhere in the garages and note operational.

How do these men and women in blue able to combat and fight crime?
In the Eastern Cape alone 1500 cars have been lying there for more
than three months, how do you explain that ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi):

Hon Zwane, why are standing?

Ms L L ZWANE: I am standing on a point of order, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi):

You can raise you point of

order.

Ms L L ZWANE: I just want to know if hon Magwebu would take a glass
of water to decrease the temperature. It‘s is too high.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not a point of order.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: ...

I respect you hon Zwane, I will not descend to

your chaos, with due respect.

In Gauteng, more than 2000 vehicles as we speak are in the
government garage. Minister and Deputy Minister, you need to do
something about this. There have been there for more than three
months. Frankly speaking, how do our men and women who are supposed
to fight crime and prevent crime in the occurring are able to do
that and discharge their constitutional obligations. They need your
support. Therefore, these are the issues you have to deal with and I
wish you good luck.

I want to come to the hon Peter from home. Is he still here? You
have also raised an issue where you said, only under ANC-led
government that our lives have been better. I want to tell you
something, the ANC that we have today is not the ANC that we grew up
and learn to respect. The ANC that we have today is not the ANC that
we once looked up to.

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You need to look at the areas that are run by the DA, the
Johannesburg Metro, Nelson Mandela Bay Metro and Tshwane Metro and
see the mess that the DA is cleaning. It is therefore incorrect to
mislead South Africans. The DA is the government that is strong in
good governance. [Time Expired.]

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Chairperson and our brand new Chief Whip; Minister
and Deputy Minister; NCOP members and special delegates; men in
uniform and ladies and gentlemen.

Setswana:
Ke a leboga Modulasetilo o o tlotlegang. Le Maaforika a mantle fa re
keteka letsatsi la rona jaaka Maaforika, re tlotlomatsa go nna
Maaforika.

English:
As we celebrate the centenary of our strategist and visionary leader
of our glorious movement, the ANC, I speak of none but Oliver
Reginald Tambo. Paying tribute to his sacrifice and had work; it is
prudent to recall his words when he said: ―The fight for freedom
must go on until it is none, until our country is free, happy and
peaceful as part of the community of man, we cannot rest.‖

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For these wise words to resonate and make meaning to the current
epoch while we wage relentless war against crime in our country, in
defence of vulnerable groups which are women and children, by
ensuring secure environment for them we have to root the demons of
gender based violence in our society.

Let me paraphrase the words of our leader, O R Tambo, to make it
relevant to this era: ―The fight for safety in our society must go
on until it is no more, until our women and children are free, happy
and peaceful as part of the community of man, we cannot rest".

We will be doing that in pursued towards achieving National
Development Plan, NDP, objectives of building safer communities.
While we seek to build the developmental state that cannot be
released without peace and stability, we should keep that in back of
our mind.

The issue of crime has always been on our agenda and our priority.
In our document, ready to govern, of the ANC states that the first
priority in our strategy to combat crime is to understand and
address the crime producing conditions that will prevail in our
society.

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South African Police Service, SAPS, [Interjection.]

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Perhaps, if
you can ask hon Manopole if she can expand on what she just said, in
the absence of peace and law and order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Essack, you know very
well that you are out of order. Can you take your seat? Refrain from
doing that. This is your final warning. Continue hon Manopole.

Ms G M MANOPOLE: The vision of the SAPS is to create a safe and
secure environment for all people in South Africa. SAPS are the
first point of entry in the Security Cluster‘s contact crime and
criminals; therefore, they should be well-resourced and capacitated
in order for them to be able to be effective and efficient in
securing that there are safer communities, which the ANC government
has envisaged.

A total of R87 billion has been allocated to the Police; and a total
of R2.5 billion will be allocated to upgrade and maintain police
stations; with a further R10.2 billion to procure and maintain
transport equipment, which has been outcry from our community and it
has been seen as hindrance of combating crime and attending to crime

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scene timeously. In the same breath as we welcome the budget and
intention thereof, it is pivotal to make this appeal to the
Minister, to ensure that the are measures and mechanism, like policy
of the assets management are implemented to the latter, pertaining
the maintenance of those vehicles and should be fully implemented.
We don‘t want hear that after a month or two that there are some
vehicles standing and been involved in accidents.

Under the Civilian Secretariat and Community Policing Forums, CPFs,
as I focus on the Community Policing Forums, the orientation of the
police in South Africa must be underpinned by a firm commitment in
giving effect to the values and principles of democratic policing.
Central to this is creating an environment that facilitates building
sustainable community support and participation. The posture of the
service oriented SAPS is one that embraces a community-centred
approach to policing underpinned by integrity and accountability.
Key to this is the implementation of community education and
outreach programmes to enhance community safety, all this is
encapsulated in the White Paper on Policing; this White Paper on
Policing seeks to integrate National Crime Presentation Strategy.

Building an active citizenry engaged in long-term coordinated
partnerships between the police and communities is an integral part

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of sustainable safety delivery. Hence community-oriented policing
remains the operating paradigm of SAPS. Delivering on this requires
SAPS and CPFs to forge cooperative partnerships to facilitate
regular communication and information sharing.

In pursuing the ideal of a safe and secure environment and
developing long-term solutions that are tailored-made to the unique
safety needs and challenges of disparate communities; the police
must continue to build strong working relations with other key
sectors such as organised business, civil society organisations and
academia. In addition to structures such as CPFs, other forms of
volunteerism such as the establishment of Street Committees should
be widely encouraged in the various localities as part of a crime
fighting strategy as well as build safe and healthy communities.

I would like to say that the community of Kimberley has already
heeded to this call of volunteerism. #wanyatsotsi in Kimberley can
be seen as one of the models of volunteerism of fighting crime;
notwithstanding the challenges which were brought to the attention
of the select committee by #wanyatsotsi and SAPS in the province;
the select committee has visited the province and met with the
organization together with SAPS and the MEC. We believe the report
of the committee will be of a great assistance to the Minister and

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SAPS, in monitoring the model of partnership with CPFs which is key
in ensuring that the sense and volunteerism and crime fighting is at
hand and at play.

The Civilian Secretariat is mandated to perform, inter-alia the
following: Providing civilian oversight of the Police Service
through monitoring and evaluating overall police performance; and,
Mobilising role-players, stakeholders and partners outside the
department through engagements on crime prevention and other
policing matters.

It is important to for us to understand to what extent the Civilian
Secretariat is making sure that community participation and
partnerships were at the centre of its work?

Furthermore, it is also important to note that very little progress
on the policies for CPFs has been made and it has become critical
for the Secretariat to finalise the matter of funding to CPFs and
Community Safety Forums, CSFs. This is particularly important given
high levels of drug usage, gangsterism particularly in relation to
our youth and domestic violence. A key issue may be that when
communities lose faith in the police, they act on their own to
address crime within their communities and are then referred to as

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vigilantes. That‘s why they wanted to label #wanyatsotsi as
vigilante whereas they‘re poorly acting on the issues of
volunteerism. This, however, is as a direct result of the lack of
confidence in the police and the failure of building community
relationships via the CPFs.

The Budget for Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID,
is R225.5 million. The Directorate will focus on strengthening its
existing investigative capacity to improve the quality of
investigations and recommendations.

As a result of budget cuts, IPID is unable to conduct full
implementation of the Marikana Commissions report recommendations.
This is what I want to emphasize, I know that the Chairperson of the
committee has highlighted it but I think it‘s prudent for me to
reiterate on this matter. And also to put to rest the issue of
Marikana, where other political parties like to make it their issue
of playing political football.

This is a critical concern, as a result of the budget constraints to
IPID.

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An urgent matter for IPID is their building which they occupy and
the fact that the lease has expired. IPID requested that the
Department of Public Works assist in this regard to ensure that IPID
has suitable office space. I believe that the select committee will
step in and assist IPID in this regard.

IPID has severe capacity constraints, particularly in respect of
legal services, including investigative staff and the number of
offices per province.

Without adequate financial and human resources IPID is concerned
that it will not be able to effectively fulfil its mandate and the
budget of IPID therefore requires serious consideration in order to
ensure that it can exercise its oversight role.

The select committee should also request the Treasury to look into
this matter and how best can it assist IPID during the upcoming
budget adjustments, for them to be able to contribute and ensuring
that all people in South Africa are and feel safe.

Chair, let me take this opportunity to raise and address –
unfortunately the member of EFF is not here. When you speak about
the issues of sexual violence, it is important to acknowledge and

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understand it because unreported cases of sexual violence are
multifaceted aspects at play; others are because community members
or victims are afraid to report due to being judged by the society
as there‘s always a notion of ‗she was asking for it‘; the other
matter is that we do acknowledge and even SAPS has previously
acknowledged that there are challenges in which some rotten apples
are painting the whole police service as if all of them belong to
one bag, saying that cases will not be attended to; but this matter
of sexual offences will be addressed adequately if all of us,
including all political parties, raise an awareness, educate the
community so that when they find themselves in the same sexual
violence situation they should go to the police station and ensure
that they don‘t temper with the evidence so that the case can have
more grounds for the police to arrest the perpetrators as well as
them being convicted.

The EFF says they‘re making a call to EFF members to go out to the
society, it clearly says to this House that they don‘t have
confidence and they admitted that they‘re not representing the
community at large, hence they‘re only requesting their
constituencies to make a call and represent their members with
regard to the issues of sexual offences and gender-based violence.

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Hon Engelbrecht, as usual, she always comes with rhetoric and inane
statements but I‘m not surprised because that‘s what she normally
does in the committee meetings. Anyway, because of her political
bankrupt political party, which always fails to deal with their
internal racism tendencies; currently there‘s a hearing against hon
Hellen Zille‘s tweet & they‘re dealing with it in a snail-pace while
the other member who is an African and liked the tweet was dealt
with quickly, whereas the superior member has not been dealt with.
Always, when we deal with important issues of crime and budget they
swing the debate because they have nothing to do nor contribute to
this budget; they always come with inane statements [Interjection.]

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, on a point of order and with absolute due
respect towards your leadership as the Chairperson. The member on
the podium is misleading this House and fellow South Africans that
are listening and watching because what she‘s quoting, with due
respect Chairperson, are not the facts and the matter is subjudice,
I would ask you as Chairperson to rule that the member withdraws
what she has said.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Are you done? Hon members,
you have had an opportunity some of you to come and participate on
the debate. You know what will be out of order. So, let‘s refrain

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from anything that will compromise the decorum and we know that – of
course – making a statement in the House that you know is false is
out of order. But, can you continue hon Manopole?

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Chair, the fact is this [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): NO, there was nothing, you‘re
debating.

Ms G M MANOPOLE: We‘re being updated by their own leader of the
party on the progress of the [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Manopole, can you take
your seat. I‘m not going to subject it to a debate, I‘ve made a
ruling. If you have a problem with my ruling, there‘s a procedure to
deal with a wrong ruling. Can you continue hon Manopole?

Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]

Ms G M MANOPOLE: The fact is that we‘re being updated with the
snail-pace of their hearing on addressing this issue. Hence when
they always have nothing to contribute to the budget they always

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talk about our leader and the case that has nothing with the
contribution to the budget.

I would like to tell our Minister to remain resolute and to ensure
that he will deliver.

Hon Magwebu, please remain cool. Your excitement when you were here
[Interjection.]

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chair, I‘m standing on a point of order. Hon
Manopole is mispronouncing my surname, I take offence because I‘m
not Magube or Magabe, if she wants to know who I am [Applause.] I am
Vusumzi Magwebu, IsiXhosa, Magwebu, get that in our thick skull.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Your point of order is
sustained. Hon Manopole, it‘s hon Magwebu.

Setswana:
Moh G M MANOPOLE: Magwebu. Re Batswana, mo Setswananeng ga go na qha
le qhwa. Ke kopa maitshwarelo.

English:

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Like I said, we are having confidence in our Minister to be able to
deal with this, please chill and relax. The issue of IPID and SAPS
will be dealt with by the Minister with ease. It is premature of you
to make a call to the Minister to suspend without applying his mind
nor without facts in front of him. The Minister will be able to act
and we call him vutha, always, he will never fail us as the ANC.

With that, hon Chair, as according to the Minister the priorities
that were articulated in the APPs reflects radical transformation
and also ensure that they‘re going to combat crime in the year of O
R Tambo while we deepen unity amongst our ranks.

ANC supports the Budget Vote in order for us to take South Africa
forward.

Setswana:
Matlo go sha a mabapi. Fa re ntse re semeletse go aga setšhaba sa
rona re netefatsa gore bana, basadi le bagolo ba rona ba tlhokomelwa
mo loagong la rona. Gore tshotlakako ya bong e nne selo sa maloba ka
gonne re a itse gore banna le baagi ba rona batla netefatsa seo.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, you are in
order, I‘ve referred it to the relevant people to attend to it, the
issue of interpretation. Hopefully they‘ll attend to it quickly.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, first, it is very unfortunate that
the hon member of the EFF has left. She knows the crime she has
committed. Those are grievous crimes that must lead to serious
arrest. One first such crime is the crime of rumour mongering and
gossip. When people sit in a beer hall they say you know Umsholozi
and they speak as if they know him.

IsiXhosa:
Uyayazi ukuba uMsholozi ebehleli noMdluli izolo bavumelana ngaloo
nto.

English:
...and you take that thing and bring it to Parliament. That is
gossip and rumour mongering. You bring it here as if we are running
a rogue state.

When the President deals with issues he doesn‘t need you. The
President controls by virtue of his position, the state security in
this country. You treat the President as though when he has to meet

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with anybody within the security arrangement he must go at night and
plot to do certain things. He can do anything. He is the state
President and we account to him. He is the commander-in-chief. You
must never deal with the President as if you are dealing with a
rogue state. Actually, you have nicely coined this concept to define
the ideological discourse like state capture. And you have made it a
buzz word and your poem – people are captured. How can a president
who is a state president capture the state? Actually, he is leading
the state.

The second thing is that we need to understand why we are taking
particular decisions. We are not going to be in a crisis of taking
any decisions. We will take decisions, but we take decisions
informed by empirical evidence and informed by information before
us. There are no holly cows. You must be rest assured; our interest
is to bring stability and honour to the Police Service and to fill
up all the vacancies. There is no issue about that. The fact is that
when people are called to Parliament they defend themselves. They
did it. The Police and the Independent Police Investigative
Directorate, Ipid, did not rock up here in Parliament, but they were
called by you.

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Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chair, I have a question for the Minister.
Would the Minister be kind to... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo, hon Mpambo, you
can‘t do that. You have to first ascertain if the Minister is ready
to take a question. Hon Minister, are you ready to take a question?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: What is your question, hon member?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you very much, Minister, for giving
me this opportunity. Hon Minister, in your quest with all the
changes that you are bringing into your Police Ministry, I would
like to know: would you commit that you will [Interjections.] Can I
be protected, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Dlamini and hon Manopole,
you are out of order.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Minister, would you commit to capacitate
the police in your Ministry with sign language so that they are able
to protect the vulnerable deaf society and communicate with them in
sign language when they are raped. The reports are saying that when

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they get to the police to report rape crisis, the police cannot
communicate with them in sign language. Would you, Minister , commit
to this House and say you will capacitate your police in this
regard?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, we will capacitate the police. I
allowed your question, but it is frivolous. Yes, we are committed to
that and everything. The question of single policing is a
constitutional mandate. It is a constitutional mandate because our
Constitution directs that there will be one Minister appointed by
Cabinet, there will be one commissioner appointed by the President
and there should be single policing that includes local government.
The problem is that you want to create a state in the Western Cape.
You don‘t want to subject the local police to command and control
because you want your own state. That is why you argue for more
powers for provinces. You are not guanine , but you are
disingenuous.

Our Constitution enhances unitarism. You want a federal state. Go to
America if want that. We don‘t have that. We are talking about cooperative governance. When we talk about police and intervention in
the Western Cape, we service the people of the Western Cape whether
the ANC has won elections in the Western Cape or not, it doesn‘t

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mater. This thing that you are doing of service people in the
Western Cape that have voted for the DA and turn a blind eye to
those who have not voted for you, that is racism and utter
backwardness when it comes to government. Governments don‘t work
like that.

IsiXhosa:
Nksz P C SAMKA: Uxolo Sihlalo, ndicela ukubuza ukuba ingaba lulwimi
olusetyenziswa ePalamente na ukuthi: ―It is nonsense‖?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Magwebu, can you withdraw
that part.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, I don‘t know, but, I studied English.
Where there is no sense, then there is no sense.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Magwebu, withdraw the
part nosense.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: It is simple English. It is not offensive,
Chairperson.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): I am not debating with you,
but I am requesting you to withdraw.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: What is wrong with the word, Chairperson, Help me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): I am giving you the last
opportunity to withdraw. Hon Magwebu, can you withdraw.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: I withdraw, Chairperson. I do.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Thank you. Continue, hon
Minister.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon members, I think you must be aware that
some of the things are diversions. Don‘t just respond to everything
which is a diversion. The question of a single policing is a
constitutional mandate. We are going to implement it and we will
allow society to debate it.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chair, would the hon Minister be willing to
take a question on that subject, please?

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): No, he is not wiling.
Continue, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: We are not fallacious in our approach to
fight crime. We are clear about the challenges that we face and we
understand the crime situation in the country. This overexaggeration
as though we don‘t have statistics record at outr disposal to
understand our approach, I think is fallacious on the part of those
who seek to promote that kind of a sentiment.

Hon member of the IFP, I just want to say that there is no
altercation between the Minister and the former head of the Hawks.
It is the implementation of the law. Unfortunately, it is in the
context of litigation. People have rights. I can‘t stop General
Ntlemeza if wants to go to court and basically think that the courts
have not done what is right. He has all the rights to do that.

From the point of view as the Minister I take decisions. Parliament
has called the Ipid and the General to Parliament. What I see is
that you call people to Parliament, but you don‘t know what to do.
When people come here you turn Parliament into a court of law.
Phahlane had rights, same with the Ipid which has rights. The
Minister does not take side. He applies the law. When the Ipid

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writes to me and say I must suspend Phahlane, I can‘t just do it on
my bed at night - to suspend the national Acting National
Commissioner of Police. Actually, I must be informed by the law. If
I don‘t do what the law requires you will be first to say that who
advises this Minister. I am running a litigation-prune department.
That is why we have vacancies. Even if in your dream you think that
you can run this country, you will still be faced with those
challenges when it come to the police. Of course, to dream you can
be in slumberland and everywhere else, but it is important to dream.
That is the approach we are taking.

Lastly on the issue of resources, we don‘t have resources and this
is our approach, let us use what is at our disposal because there
will never be enough resources. We cannot say, yes, we need more
police on the ground. That is the policy of other political parties.
Who does not need more police on the ground? We have competing
priorities. For what we have we can mitigate and push back crime in
the country, and that is what we are doing.

Let me tell you about the people that you refereed to. I don‘t have
generals in the Police who are sitting in their offices and not
understand the grounds. Probably, you are talking about the generals
of during the apartheid - your forefathers. The generals I have know

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the ground. Today, before I came here I delivered the police station
at Elsies River and I am going back there. [Applause.] Yesterday, I
was in Nyanga. [Applause.] I am going to be everywhere else. I
understand fighting crime, not as a theory or philosophy or an act
of intellect, but I understand it from the concrete material
condition of our people. I know what our people are faced with and
we cannot do it alone as the police. We need other departments to
intervene. We need a multidisciplinary approach.

We did not create Cape Flats. They were created by apartheid. It is
the democratic state that must destroy Cape Flats so that we can put
our people in decent human settlements. When you have Marabastad in
Pretoria under your watch and your collusion and you have everything
that is an infestation of crime, what do you want us to do? We must
do away with informal settlements; we must do away with Cape Flats
so that we are able to fight crime. I am supposed to deliver a
police station at Samora Machel, but in that area you can‘t even
move with a police vehicle. It is not a place for people to live in.
for people to taste democracy, we must change their lives and put
them in good human settlements. This police will not spared where
they are wrong. Don‘t spare them. You are not making us a favour. In
fact, you have made very concrete proposals in terms of what we need
to do and what our weaknesses are in terms of our policing strategy.

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We have listened to that and we will take that, and we will take
that to kind, from all our Members of Parliament and we will infuse
that in our plans going forward.

We are not going to look at people politically when they make
constructive suggestions. But surely, we can‘t take beer hall
gossips as our plan going forward - we can‘t. People gossip
everyday. They even lie about Orlando Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs and
all of that. From what people have said I can deduce what is
constructive that will take our country forward. We must equally
deduce political expediency from the reality of guiding us in terms
of what needs to be done.

We thank you for that, hon members. The task of fighting back crime
is not an easy one, but I can guarantee you that today on this day
we are going to win, and we are winning everyday. Thank you very
much. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Let me take this opportunity
to thank our special delegates, our Deputy Minister of the Police,
hon Mkongi and our Miniset hon Mbalula, for availing themselves for
this very interesting and informative debate. Hon members, you are

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requested to remain standing until the procession has left the
House.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:26.