Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 20 Jun 2017


No summary available.




The Council met at 14:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Members, I have been informed by the Whippery that they have agreed that there would not be any notices of motion or motions without notice. I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome the hon Minister, the Ministers, MECs and special delegates to the House. Also, I am informed that we have the leaders of South Africa of tomorrow sitting up there. They

are the children from Cedar House Preparatory School in Kenilworth. You are welcome, my children. [Applause.]


(Policy debate)

Vote No 5 – Home Affairs:

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon chairperson of the Select Committee on Social Services, hon members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, I am indeed honoured to present the Budget Vote of the Department of Home Affairs for 2017-18.

It is fitting that we dedicate this Budget Policy Statement to a radical, visionary and resilient servant of the people of South Africa, Ntate Oliver Reginald Tambo. He was an outstanding internationalist and humanist of great courage, strength and integrity.

He showed us that if you lived by the correct values, you could mobilise others and overcome huge difficulties. He moved freely in

and out of different countries and small and big cities, but was never stopped owing to his compliance with the laws and he was never doubted or seen as a security risk. As Tambo said, we cannot but
―assert the dignity of all men and women across the oceans, on all the continents, permanently and unequivocally‖.

It is fitting as the Department of Home Affairs to make reference to today’s special day: World Refugee Day. Refugees are our people who have gone through a lot of suffering in their countries, in most instances having been exposed to gross human rights violations and witnessing all sorts of atrocities. The only honour we can give them is to ensure that in our communities and in our midst we introduce them to our networks and we show them our values of ubuntu, so that their experience of being in our country is pleasurable.

I need to reflect briefly on what we have achieved. Last year there were commitments made to this august Council by my predecessor. You voted the department a total of R8,1 billion for operations and projects. One of our achievements was the replacing of over
2,6 million green-barcoded ID books with secured smart ID cards over five years. We achieved this through partnership with our banks, and we hope to strengthen these partnerships.

We invite citizens, especially the youth and first-time applicants who are in matric, to apply online, or at their nearest Home Affairs office for smart ID cards and passports. Home Affairs has offices in all provinces, including the 14 bank branches where smart ID cards may be accessed conveniently. We continue to look for public-private partnerships to improve not only our electronic infrastructure but also our office buildings. We are also committed to upgrading six of the largest land ports of entry. I’m not going to mention them, hon members.

Another major achievement was that the Border Management Authority Bill was completed after extensive engagement within government, the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, and broader society. We are at the point at which the Bill will be looked at by this honourable House.

Historical injustices render fundamental the Department of Home Affairs’ mandate to secure and confirm the identity and status of all citizens. Securing the identity and status of every citizen constitutes an important pillar of the noble struggle for socioeconomic transformation. This task speaks also to the restoration of dignity of each citizen, without regard to race, gender or class, in line with the 1994 Constitution.

Hon members, we have the National Development Plan, Vision 2030, in terms of which the department directly contributes to economic restructuring, growth and job creation. Appropriately, we have set strategic targets, against an annual performance plan and a realistic budget. We trust the targets for 2017-18 will contribute towards achieving our strategic objectives aligned to national priorities.

For this Budget Vote the total allocated is R7,1 billion, of which R1,2 billion will be transferred to the IEC and R141 million to the Represented Political Parties’ Fund.

One of the strategic projects that has been started and that we will continue with is building a new Home Affairs. The department’s key strategic areas are those of civic and immigration services. We are making inroads into the modernisation programme. Much has been done to improve the department as an organisation in order to modernise its systems, to combat corruption and to deliver better services, but a lot more still needs to be done. For that, we have a total allocation of R519 million earmarked for the modernisation programme.

We firmly believe that the movement of Home Affairs into the security cluster will enable the department to deliver its full mandate in terms of a discussion paper on the repositioning of Home Affairs, based on the business case, published in the Government Gazette on 19 May this year. Substantive comments can be submitted until 30 September 2017. We will engage stakeholders including at provincial level. We look forward to contributions from hon members.

Going forward, we have the responsibility to consolidate and finalise the design of a National Identity System, Nis, that will replace the National Population Register, which dates back to the 1980s. Hon members, you are all familiar with the challenges we have had. The past is still with us: where too many people are in the country undocumented or illegally documented. The use of technology
– the digitisation of records – is a concrete step that the department has taken to ensure that we use technology to do live captures of offices across the country.

The digitisation of records is also important in the sense that it is not easy for people to erase what has been technologically secured. Some of the concrete steps are likely to be achieved when we receive improved funding for this purpose. We all know the cost of broadband roll-out for any developing country: it is

unmitigatable. But we are committed, with the help of Treasury, to using the earmarked R10 million per annum to ensure that we continue on the journey of digitising our offices and our work.

We have a good example from last year: the world-class Desmond Tutu Refugee Reception Centre, launched by President Jacob Zuma early this year, which really talks to what a modern centre can do in terms of treating people with respect and dignity and doing so efficiently.

The registration of births, marriages and deaths is an important function as part of dignifying our citizens. Work on civic services is voted R2,4 billion.

The National Study on Challenges in Early Birth Registration is also an important project for the department, which we are embarking upon in partnership with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. We have to ask ourselves a question: Why are South Africans not keen to register young people in time? Is it a poor understanding of the importance of secured citizenship? We are not going to guess the answer to that, but the study will teach us exactly how we should intervene. One assumes the rural areas will be our vulnerable spots where we must hold strategic interventions.

In this financial year we have put aside R1,2 billion for immigration services. The turnaround standard set last year of 85% of permits delivered within eight months will be maintained. The target for adjudicating temporary residence visas increased to 90% within eight weeks for business and general work visas. We commit to improving the target for critical skills visas by 5% to 80% adjudicated within four weeks.

The Border Management Authority is a critical element of ensuring that we begin to process very carefully immigrants to the country in line with our immigration policy and also our refugee laws.

International migration policy is a big issue for the Department of Home Affairs. We are at the point at which we are having discussions with critical stakeholders on what has been approved so far by Cabinet. Generally, we are all familiar with the challenges of immigration in other parts of the world. So, in the corner where we are, we do believe our values will determine how we process those who desire to be part of us legally. The policy development process will result in a comprehensive overhaul of immigration and refugee legislation. The Refugees Amendment Bill seeks to improve on operational efficiencies at both the refugee reception offices and

the two statutory bodies, namely the Standing Committee for Refugee Affairs and the Refugee Appeals Board.

The Immigration Amendment Act of 2016, assented to and signed by the President on 27 September 2016, empowers us to provide for adequate sanction for foreigners who stay beyond the expiry date of their visas. These policies and legislative interventions will advance our priority to resolve the abuse of the asylum system.

Another major commitment we can make is the uprooting of systematic corruption in our systems and in the issuing of our documents. We are intensifying our all-out fight against corruption in all its manifestations. Identity documents, passports and birth certificates have high value, and the Department of Home Affairs is under constant attack by local and international criminal syndicates.

Cybercrime is also on the rise. This work is being done by Operation Bvisa Masina, meaning ―cleaning the rot‖, which was launched in 2015. We have a clear communication to our officials that they not be party to any corrupt practice as that will undermine the repositioning of a Home Affairs responsible for management of a national identity system, which is credible and not corrupted by interference that has unintended consequences.

We have one state entity that I want to refer to under us: the Government Printing Works, the GPW. We will be focusing on it to really show hon members its worth. Firstly, it is a highly efficient, self-funded organisation producing our new secure passports and smart ID cards. The Government Printing Works is positioning itself as a high-security printer of official documents.

In this regard, we are looking at our neighbouring countries benefiting from this efficiency as there has been a tendency of our neighbours within SADC to look at Europe for printing critical documents. That has not really helped us to separate links with our colonisers. So we are happy that we will be pushing through a Government Printing Works State-Owned Company Bill, which will be tabled this year, and the Security Printers Bill subsequent to that. Here, clearly, there are rare expectations which will not only benefit our youth, but also position this country to be recognised as a major contributor to this new area of work.

We are committed to contributing substantially even towards social issues that affect our society today, such as issues of gender-based violence and abuse, including human trafficking, abductions and marriages of convenience, in partnership with nongovernmental

organisations, faith-based organisations, traditional leadership, business, organised labour, UN-based organisations and broader society. We do believe the department is being repositioned in terms of being presented as part of the security cluster.

In conclusion, I thank my predecessor, Minister Malusi Gigaba, Deputy Minister Chohan, Director-General Mkuseli Apleni and the officials in our midst for the substantial progress made in terms of the 2016-17 budget and plan.

We are indebted to the Select Committee on Social Services, led by the hon Dlamini, for guidance and support at all times. The NCOP has shown a clear understanding of the fact that Home Affairs is a strategic resource for enabling the empowerment of citizens and the inclusive socioeconomic development of our economy, and for attaining efficient and accountable government. It is these noble commitments that spurred us on this year to adopt the theme for the budget debate: ―Secure and Efficient Service to the People‖.
Batho pele - people putting people first. Thank you very much, hon Chair. [Applause.]


Hon Chairperson, my greetings to you, hon Minister, hon members,

special delegates, I want to take this opportunity to say that as a committee we support the Budget Vote of the Department of Home Affairs. I will state the reasons why we are supporting the budget vote. The Department of Home Affairs’ core mandate is to secure and confirm our identity and citizenship. Securing the identity and status of every citizen is part of the journey towards socioeconomic transformation and the restoration of the dignity of our citizens.

Chair, I am not sure whether all of us we have the same understanding about the importance of this department. I am saying that Chair birth certificates, ID documents, passports and the rest, but the impact of a person who does not have an identification document, that person is declared as a stateless person. We have gone around as a committee doing oversight and we have learnt that there are children in schools that do not have identification documents and some of them are refused to continue with their studies because they do not have their identification documents. Hon Minister, we saw a number of them in the Eastern Cape. During the taking Parliament to the People we discovered that a number of children in the Alfred Nzo district do not have birth certificates because their parents do not have ID documents. We have been to Mpumalanga eNkomazi, KwaMhlushwa primary School and it came up very strongly, it was a hot issue because that area is bordering

Swaziland and Mozambique. A number of residents do not have identification documents.

What we are saying is that it should not be seen as people who do not have identification documents but they are declared as stateless people. They do not have a state because they could not be recognised by a nation of any country because they do not have identification documents.

Hon Chair, South Africa has pledged to accede to the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. The country expresses its commitment to ratify outstanding instruments in the area of human rights and international humanitarian law. We therefore say to the department that we appreciate the work you are doing to check why people do not register their children early but at how many people declared as stateless people in South Africa, because we signed that convention.

Hon Chair Home Affairs is one of the departments that as a committee we have witnessed continuous improvement in their operations without underscoring the challenges that are still there, but we must say that it has been improving, year in and year out. We really appreciate that and that is why we feel that it is important for us

to support their budget because it will make the lives of our people better.

It is plausible to note that, in 2016, the Cabinet decided to integrate Home Affairs into the security cluster and thus paved a way towards the pursuit of this new vision that will see the department realigned and repositioned within the South African security cluster. The location of the Department of Home Affairs within the security cluster in March 2016 is a good step towards operating in a highly secure environment to ensure that the nation is safe and secure. We appreciate that Cabinet has taken that decision.

In line with the National Development Plan, NDP, and the Cabinet’s key outcomes, Home Affairs offers four critical contributions to the nation, that is: Enabling economic development, for us to ensure that there is development we must know how many people are here in the country; contributing to national security; enabling effective service delivery, and; supporting governance and administration.
Over the years, the Department of Home Affairs has made great strides in the registration of births, marriages and deaths.

The key target for the Department of Home Affairs for this year is to register 750 000 births within 30 days, as legally required. This represents about 74% of estimated births. What we are saying there, hon Minister, is that you can’t target 74%, we expect you to target 100% if you fail then you fail but you can’t plan to fail. We expect you to plan for 100%. However, compliance remains a challenge within the registration of births within 30 days. In order to address this, the Department of Home Affairs, as the Minister was indicating earlier, is working with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, and the Department of Health. Together, these departments are conducting a study to look at the causes and propose solutions for late registrations of birth. We really appreciate that because now you will be guided by the research outcomes instead of thumb sucking.

Birth registration is significant because it is about identity, which is central to restoring dignity of people, regardless of gender, race or class. Solving identity dynamics serves to open resources, social services and doors of learning for those previously marginalised. Registering children gives them an identity from birth. It opens avenues to a whole range of critical services which dignifies there. As I was indicating earlier, if children do not have birth certificates, they are deprived of services

especially the grants that the government is giving. So, we are saying that all children must be registered and have identification documents.

In order to address the issue of late registration of birth, it is proposed that the department should intensify information campaigns, stakeholder engagements and the provision of home affairs services at health facilities nationwide, — most of which print full birth certificates at birth before they leave the health facilities they have their birth certificates. We are saying that programme should be fast tracked and have more health facilities having home affairs offices.

Despite the limited funding to the Department of Home Affairs, the Smart ID Card and new passports have transitioned to using fully digital application processes at 178 offices and at 12 branches of the four major banks. Hon Minister, we really appreciate that but having said that, we are saying that all these services should not be limited to the cities and towns. We are saying that our people in rural areas deserve those services.

The Department of Home Affairs has a responsibility to fight corruption. Fraud is real and it should be fought by all means

necessary. The Department is fighting fraud, according to their report, through its Modernisation Programme. This programme is meant to reduce fraud and cost of doing business by enabling e-government and facilitate more investment to grow the economy. Hon Chair, I was there myself when the Marabastad office was launched. I think that the issue of corruption is a thing of the past, if we can transform all home affairs offices to the standard of the Marabastad office, it now called the Desmond Tutu Refugee Centre; we will say we have done it as a country. There are little chances of corruption in that office.

On the challenges around late birth registration, the Department of Home Affairs should conduct more outreach programmes such as posters at health facilities and other centres of government. Chair, we have witnessed violence against foreign nationals in the South African townships. Issues of international migration are very dynamic and there is an urgent need for social integration and coexistence among South Africans and foreign nationals in communities. This needs to be facilitated by the department as part of social cohesion.

We have heard queries regarding children barred from schools as I was saying earlier and struggling to benefit from social security programmes due to lack of required and enabling ID documents.

Educators had raised challenges about the likelihood of children not completing their senior certificate because they do not have identification documents. During the briefing by the department, we were also told there has been a cut or reduction of the budget in terms of human resource and it has affected the department immensely in such a way that some offices in ports of entry have office furniture but there is no personnel to man those offices. We are therefore saying that the National Treasury should consider that this department is not only about IDs and passports; it is far much bigger than that. Chair, more importantly, we say that the remodernisation of Home Affairs should not end in cities.

We expect the department to build and not rent offices of home affairs in rural areas so that all of our people, regardless of where they stay, they receive services like anyone else in town. Chairperson, we as a committee support the budget Vote of the department. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, this department must certainly be given credit for some of the good work that has been done during the past years. The roll-out of six million smart identification document, ID, cards in only four years and the quick turnaround times with regard to passport applications are testimony of significant and impressive achievements by the department.

Most people have forgotten that it used to take several weeks to get a passport. It is now possible that you could receive it in one week and even in emergency cases within 48 hours. Obviously, there is no room for complacency with much more to be achieved by the department to increase its role in the growth of our economy.

If we want to address the crisis of the more than nine million unemployed South Africans, then the Department of Home Affairs must, inter alia simplify our visa regime to attract foreign investment so that it is easier for companies to set up shop here, which obviously will lead to job creation.

The long queues at Home Affairs remain a massive problem for people who are unable to spend an entire day away from work just to apply for an ID. We recognise that hundreds of Home Affairs’ officials work tirelessly to keep this department operational but so much more could be done to support and improve the delivery of services to the people of our country. The past week’s focus on officials who protested about having to work on Saturdays to provide essential services to the public is an example. We don’t see this commitment in many other departments. We need a system where everyone contributes and one that treats people with respect, dignity,

fairness and within the boundaries of our Constitution and legislation.

In that context, section 5(1) of the South African Citizenship Act of 1995 states that the Minister of Home Affairs may grant South African citizenship to any foreigner who satisfies the Minister, amongst other things, that he or she is a permanent resident who has lived in South Africa continuously for at least five years; he or she is of good character; and he or she is a citizen of a country that allows dual citizenship, and if not that he or she has renounced citizenship of their country of origin.

Now the following question obviously arises. Would the hon Minister regard persons who have been proven to be racist by demanding that their guests, for instance at an event, should be served by people of a specific race group only, to be of good character? Also, would the Minister regard people who have abused their power by compromising a national key point to be of good character? Would a person who has offered ANC Members of Parliament, MPs, jobs as Ministers qualify as being of good character?

I think the Minister would agree that the answer is an unequivocal, no. Yet, we have a situation which not only casts a cloud over the

credibility of the former Minister who took the decision to grant citizenship to the Gupta family but also over the department and its officials. It was reported that the new Minister stated that she would do exactly the same.

Firstly, procedures outlined in the Act which would have allowed the Minister to make an informed decision about whether the Guptas were of good character or not were simply flouted. They could’ve been interrogated and asked, why do you only want white people to serve you and your guests at Sun City? It was flouted;

Secondly ... [Interjections.] ... India is not a country that allows for dual citizenship. You wouldn’t have qualified hon ... to serve the Guptas at Sun City. You don’t qualify. You are not of the correct race according to them. [Laughter.] India is not a country that allows for dual citizenship. This means that the Guptas could only validly become South African citizens if they renounced their Indian citizenship. Did the Guptas provide the Minister with the evidence to prove that they are renouncing their Indian citizenship? No, they have not done so; and

Thirdly, section 5(8) of the Act states that if the Minister has refused to grant citizenship, applicants must wait another year before they can reapply. Was this done? No!

No provision is made for an appeal to the decision. In this case, the application was declined on 22 January 2015, yet the Minister reconsidered the application and granted citizenship to the Guptas on 30 May of the same year, a few months later.

Another question is whether the Minister complied with section 5(9)(b) of the Act which requires the Minister, within 14 days after the commencement of the sittings of Parliament in each year, to table in Parliament the names of persons granted citizenship because of exceptional circumstances and must include the reasons for the early granting of citizenship. If the Minister did not comply then obviously the decision to grant that citizenship would also be invalid.

The preferential treatment of the Gupta family by unlawfully granting them South African citizenship played a crucial role in the reported looting of state-owned enterprises and state-owned companies. The role of the Minister — we would not know whether the Minister was a direct or indirect beneficiary until it’s also leaked

by GuptaLeaks — should not be underestimated. It will take years to undo the damage caused to the image and credibility of the department but this fades into insignificance if compared to the damage done to South Africa and specifically towards our impoverished citizens.

It is clear that the ANC government cannot self-correct and therefore it will be incumbent on the new 2019 government to repair this and similar damage in the soon to come post-ANC era. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: 46 seconds ...


...mama, ke kopa o baakanye nako.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Inaudible.] correct the time.

Ms T J MOKWELE: This department has been limping from one disaster to another, and is one of those who have been fully captured by the Gupta family; a capture facilitated and aided by Mr Gigaba while still a Minister. We know that Mr Gigaba used his powers as Minister to illegally naturalize the Gupta family, even against the advice of

the technocrats in the department. He has gone on to the Treasury to do their bidding as well.

What is not certain is how the new Minister is planning to reorient the department so it does effectively what it ought to be doing, which is service delivery to our people.

The department remains untransformed [Interjection.]

Mr M RAYI: I just want to check, hon Chairperson, if it’s parliamentary to cast aspersion on the Minister? The member says that he has been sent to the Treasury to serve the Guptas. That to me is casting aspersion and therefore the member is supposed to bring a substantive motion to the House on this particular issue. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m going to take advice on this one. In the meantime please proceed hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: A point of debate.

The department remains untransformed in terms of service delivery. People in deep rural areas and in townships such as Inanda, Madikwe, Pitsedisulejang, Montsana and other remote areas have no immediate

access to home affairs offices, which impugn on their rights to birth registrations, ID applications, and all other essential services people ought to be getting from home affairs.

A clear indication of the short-sightedness with which this department has been led in the attempt by the previous minister to create a parallel revenue collection unit within the Department of Home Affairs through the Border Management Bill that is yet to be passed by Parliament.

Malusi, Zuma and the Gupta’s became aware that SARS was collecting almost R300 Billion through customs, and they wanted to control that revenue stream to the country. They resolved to create a parallel entity that would take away that responsibility from SARS [Interjection.]

Are you mandated to [Interjection.]

Mr M RAYI: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for a member to call another member with a wrong name, Malusi, Zuma? Are there such people?

Chairperson, there are people that are harassing me saying that


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected. The member is on the floor, please give the respect. Hon Mokwele, please take your seat. Hon Rayi!

Mr M RAYI: I just want to quote on the rules Chair, because members will continue to say when we raise a member who is in another House that the member is not a member of this House. In terms of the application of the rules to non-members participating, it says except where clearly inappropriate, these rules apply to a cabinet member, a Deputy Minister, a local government representative or an official in the national or provincial executive participating in the sitting of the Council in terms of section 66 or 67. In terms of the rule, a cabinet Minister is also protected because these rules apply to a cabinet Minister as well.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The rules do apply to a cabinet Minister. Hon members, you have, however, as this House...please take you seat ma’am. You have, however, in the past referred to members of cabinet who were not in the House, let this then be the lesson that the rules will apply to members who are present in the

House. It is a rule which I think, as we go through, we might want to revisit, however, because it means if a rule like that is strictly adhered to, even the good things about a Minister or Deputy Minister who is not in the House at a particular time, we might not refer to. So, it is a rule that I would suggest that we do.

I do, however, want to say that hon Mokwele, earlier on you referred to a Minister who was sent to do certain things at Treasury, we do not have any proof, we do not know, you are speculating, you do not know, it would be better ma’am to not refer to things you cannot prove in this House before you can bring a substantive motion on the matter. It would also be good to refer to Minister Gigaba as Minister Gigaba.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Mr Gigaba.

Unfortunately for the new Minister, you have inherited this mess, and until you demonstrate to us that you will be prepared to be led by principle, and commit yourself to uphold the Constitution, we shall treat you with doubt as well.

Secondly, year after year, there has been a growing condemnation of how this department handles immigration services. This department,

through its mistreatment of fellow African citizens, has been at the centre of driving Anti-African xenophobic perceptions. The Marabastad Refugee Reception Office, now renamed as the Tutu Reception Centre in Pretoria for example has been described as a facility managed by an oiled system of corrupt individuals. It is not the only one. Many centres established to help with immigration processes have been converted in haven for criminal syndicates who extort money from our African siblings who are here to look for survival opportunities.

The downside of this is that thousands of low skilled people find it easy to enter the country, and out-compete locals either in the informal sector or in other low paying jobs; while making it difficult for highly skilled individual to enter the country and contribute to the development of our economy.

Immigration of skilled people is inordinately difficult and despite government claims that scarce skills are welcome, in practice this has seldom been true.

But, corruption permeates across the department, and it is an untransformed department too.

Thirdly, the department of Home Affairs sits with millions of fingerprints of all of us; it is incomprehensible that to this date, this department and the South African Police Services, SAPS, have no working relationship to ensure that criminals are easily apprehended. It would not take rocket science for home affairs to share their fingerprint database with SAPS, to secure our nation from raving criminals.

In light of the factors we have highlighted, a budget of just over R7 billion is not nearly sufficient to effect the necessary transformation within the department.


Re le EFF Modulasetilo, ga re tshegetse Tekanyetsokabo e e tlhagisitsweng ke Lefapha la Selegae.

Ke rata gape go tlhagisa mo Ntlong gore...


...the department is failing to plan, and whilst failing to plan they just build offices in remote areas with no personnel. So, I’m appealing to you Minister, please make sure that you plan, both for

the personnel and infrastructure. Don’t just build for the sake of building.

We reject this budget. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Minister, like it has already been reported, the IFP notes with concern the reduction of services forced to the department by the budget cuts. We note that the department will not be filling 687 vacant posts due to financial constraints. This, indeed, has a significant negative impact to the services offered by the department.

The department has amongst others, the responsibility of providing crucial documentations such as records of births and deaths certificates, marriage certificates, identity documents, regulate and confirm the status and identity of foreigners, regulate immigration, and other important functions.
It is a pity that even after 23 years of our democracy, the offices where these services are obtained are still largely located in urban centres. Accessibility to these services for rural people and township people still cost them money to locate. Therefore, for the rural and township people, very little has changed with the location of home affairs in order to make them feel that home affairs is also

theirs. Yet, the important documents required for grants, banking services and other activities, must be obtained from there. It is some kind of an irony that those who do not have must pay to get these services, yet those who can afford still pay little or nothing to access these services because offices are closer to them.

Hon Minister, the Department of Home Affairs has not yet succeeded to deal with fraud and corruption efficiently within its family.
People still get inside the country through bribes; important materials still go in and out of the country fraudulently.

I have mentioned before that I do not see the establishment of Border Management Agency, BMA, successfully eradicating these practises. This is because, the very same officials who are involved in these practises - of course some of them - they will be the ones who will be absorbed by the BMA when it gets established. The hon Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi usually warns that ―giving the problem a new name does not help solve the problem.‖ This is what the department seems to be doing.

The controlling of the influx of people getting into South Africa has remained very poor and cause for concern. There are communities around the borders of South Africa in areas like the border between

South Africa and Swaziland, South Africa and Mozambique, South Africa and Zimbabwe, South Africa and Botswana, South Africa and Lesotho, who possess the citizenship of both South Africa and of their home countries.

We have recently had a by-election in ePhongolo in KZN. People were coming from Swaziland to come and vote in South Africa. They could not be stopped because they have South African Identity documents; they are registered to vote in South Africa by the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC. This is a huge challenge, hon Minister.

The issues of social cohesion for those foreign nationals who have settled in South Africa remain another challenge. We occasionally experience activities of clashes between South Africans and foreign nationals. Sometimes these clashes result in loss of lives; shops, especially belonging to foreign nationals get looted and burnt or damaged. These are challenges that must be addressed.
It is why we all got concerned when a social cohesion conference that was supposed to be held in Durban got postponed. One has a feeling that the real reason why the conference was postponed was because Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi was going to give the official opening address. For as long as social cohesion is still politicised in this manner it will not get the real and genuine attention that

it deserves. South Africa does not have just one political party, we have political parties. South Africa does not have just one political leader, were have political leaders.

The IFP has always raised a concern that the IEC must always reign in on the party political use of government funds to benefit those in power during election times. We have also repeatedly raised a concern that for as long as the IEC utilises the services of South African Democratic Teacher’s Union, SADTU, to run elections; those elections are not free and fair. SADTU is an affiliate of Congress of South African Trade Unions, COSATU. COSATU is an alliance with the ANC. The ANC is the ruling party of South Africa. This makes the ANC a referee and a player in our elections. South Africa has an abundance of unemployed youth, amongst them unemployed graduates.
Why not utilize their services during elections? I thank you, Chair.

Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, ka gore ditaba ke tše dintši, e re ke thome ka go botša Tona gore re a mo thekga go tekanyetšo ye ya gagwe, a a tšwele pele a šome.

Ke dumela gore badudi ba Afrika-Borwa ba butše ditsebe ba ntheeleditše. Se ba swanetšego go se tseba ke gore ngwaga wa 1994 o fentše mathata a mantši ao a bego a le gona setšhabeng. Ba se ke ba

tshwenyega; re tšwela pele. ANC ke mokgatlo woo o tsebago se o se dirago ka gore o tseba se o se nyakago.


The presence of undocumented ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mampuru, please take your seat. Hon Mokwele, why are you on your feet?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. ...


Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke emela ntlha ya kgalemo. Sebui se se buang fano se latlha naga ...


It is not true that the ANC knows what it is doing. She is just fumbling and wambling all over.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, that is not a point of order. Hon Mampuru, please continue.


Moh T K MAMPURU: Ga go na motse wo o hlokago bagaditšong. Nna ke thabile; Afrika-Borwa ke gona e matlafala ka mokgwa wo ka gore ge re ka re re le mmušo wo o eteletšwego pele ke ANC ra hloka manaba, re ka se ke ra ba ra phakgama. Le a re phakgamiša; le dira mošomo wo mobotse.


The presence of undocumented migrants in the Republic poses both economic and security threats to the country. There is empirical evidence that the majority of asylum seekers also do not qualify for refugee status and protection. The cross departmental responsibility and competencies for border management create duplication of tasks, weak data collection and protection. There are challenges relating to legislation regulating access citizenship by foreign nationals.


Se se boletšwe ke ANC kua Mangaung ka 1912.


Therefore, there is a need to balance the inward flow of low skilled labour to curtail the negative impact it has on domestic employment and resolved ...


... tše e di bonego, ya fetša ya re ...


... amongst others, the Department of Home Affairs should take the lead in the Border Management Agency as a department which is faced with immigration issues. That’s why ...


... re re Tona a tšwele pele ka lebaka la gore se a se dirago o a se tseba ebile o a se kwešiša.

The Freedom Charter says that South Africa belongs to those who live in it, black and white, ...


... efela se ga se re gore batho ba swanetše ba dire se ba se ratago ge ba le ka mo Afrika-Borwa - ba tshele magora ba re ga go na bothata re ya ka Afrika-Borwa re ya go dula gona. Aowa, ka mo re nyaka ditokomane tša maleba. Ge re etla go ...


... policy directives, they are achieved by issuing the following types of documents; the visa, temporary resident permits, you name them; business permits, work permits, corporate permits, study permits, etc; permanent residence permits, refugee and asylum papers.


Tona, re tlile go di latela dipholisi tša rena ge re ka tšwela pele ka go di hlokomedišisa. E re ke hlalose gore maloba le maabane re sepeletše ka thoko yela ya Beit Bridge kua Limpopo go ya go dira tekodišišo re le Komiti ye e Ikgethilego ya Ditirelo tša Setšhaba. Ga go na se se kgahlišago, tše dingwe tša ditlhohlo tše re di hweditšego kua ke gore sephodisa sela re se beilego kua mollwaneng ga ba na ditulo, gape dikoloi tšela re ba filego tšona di fišwa ke letšatši ka gore go a fiša kua. Se sengwe ke gore ga ba na dicooler box tše ba ka kgonago go tšhela meetse. Ditlhohlo tše dingwe ke gore bašomi ba Kgoro ya Merero ya tša Selegae ba letše ka taba ya go hloka yunifomo ya mešomong. Re lemogile gape re le komiti gore go hlokega kliniki gona mola ka lebaka la gore go ya Musina ke kgole gomme batho ba rena ba kgone go thušega ka sekgauswi. Re re ge le ka bolela le ba Kgoro ya Maphelo gore ba age kliniki go na moo ka gore go na le batho ba rena ba ba tletšego go sela gona moo. Re na le

babapatšatseleng (hawkers) go na moo – re lebeletše gore ge ba ka ba le malwetši ao a sa ba gateleleng kudu, ba kgone go humana thušo.

Go na le batho bao ba bitšwago ―Gumagumas‖ goba ―Impis‖. Batho ba ke bao ba dulago kua mellwaneng - ba tšwa Zimbabwe. Ke bao ba thušago badudi ba ka kua Zimbabwe go tsena ka mo Afrika-Borwa. Ge noka e tletše go ba kaonenyana ka gore yona ke sedirišwa sa tlhago sa go thibela gore ba se ke ba kgona go tsena ka mo, efela ge meetse a fokotšegile ba a ba tshediša.

Magora a rena ba a sentše, ga go loke selo. Batho ba khukhumela ka mo fase gomme go khukhumela ga bona gapegape go tliša taba ya gore ba hulwe tše ba di swerego. Tšona dikokwane tše re di beilego kua godimo ba di robile; ba di kgaotše gore ba kgone go khukhumela ka tšona ba tsene, ba tle ka mo. Re kgopela gore kgoro ye e hlakane le tše dingwe dikgoro go dira gore re thušege ka gore monabo wo e lego gore mašole le maphodisa a rena a kgona go sepela go wona go lekola legora la rena, e ka ba tekano ya kilometara goba seripa sa kilometara. Ge le ka gatelela taba ya gore magora a rena a šireletšwe, re tla ba setšhaba se sekaone re le Afrika-Borwa.


I am not trying to be xenophobic ...


Ke be ke re motho yo mongwe le yo mongwe yo a lego ka mo Afrika- Borwa a holege ka mokgwa wa maleba, e sego ka boradia. Re na le maloko a uMkhonto we Sizwe Military Veterans Association, MKMVA, a rena ao e lego gore gonabjale ga ba na mešomo. Re thoma go gakanega ge re eya dikgorong tša rena ka moka ga tšona re hwetša bona matšwantle ka lebaka la gore bona ga ba na taba le mešomo ye e lefago meputso ye mennyane.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mampuru, please take your seat. Hon Mokwele?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I just want to check whether it is parliamentary to lobby for your political party members to get employment illegally because they must apply for vacant positions not because they are MKMVA they must be employed. Is it parliamentary, Chair?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, I am going to allow hon Mampuru to continue with the debate. She did not say please employ, she referred ... [Interjections.] ... no, ma’am, go back and listen properly. She did not say that. She referred to uMkhonto we Sizwe

Military Veterans Association, MKMVA, and therefore I am not going to take this matter any further. Hon Mampuru, please continue.


Moh T K MAMPURU: Modulasetulo, mošomo wa ka wo mogolo ke go šireletša, go hlompha le go godiša dipoelo tša ANC. Ga go na yo a tlogo ntšhošetša ge ke eme mo. [Tsenoganong.] O ka se loke! O ka se loke, ngwana.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Order, hon Mampuru. Hon Mokwele and hon Mampuru, the dialogue please ... Hon Mampuru, please continue.

Moh T K MAMPURU: Ke kgopela tshwarelo, Modulasetulo. A ka se ke a tšea maikutlo aka a a iša godimo. Ke sa tiile. Ke be ke sa hlalosa gore go tla ka mo Afrika-Borwa e se ka maswanedi go na le dihlotlo mo le mola. Ke boletše ka taba ye ya mešomo ka gore gonabjale re bolela ka radical economic transformation. Re ka se fihlele radical economic transformation ge re ka se kgone go lemoga gore tše ke tše dingwe tše di re šitišago. Ge o ka ya ka malapeng a rena, re na le bathuši. Ka lebaka la gore molao wa rena wa tša mešomo o hlalosa gore re lefe bašomi bjang, bathuši ba rena ba gana go go šomela ge o

le wa dikobodimagetleng - o le mmotlana, o nyaka gore ba go šalele le bana o sa ba fe meputso wo o dumeletšwego. Yola wa letšwantle ka gore yena o nyaka go bona a swere se sengwe ka letsogong, yona taba yeo e ya re gatelela re le badudi ba Afrika-Borwa. A re gateleleng gore melao ya rena go Kgoro ya Merero ya tša Selegae e latelwe gore tše re di nyakago re kgone go di fihlelela, re di humane.

Ke sa bušeletša ke a gatelela ke re ga go na kgoro ye e ka ikemago e le noši ya gopola gore ge le letšatši le hlaba e tla kgona go phethagatša mananeo a yona ka moka. A re šomišaneng ka lebaka la gore re hlokana go tloga ge letšatši le hlaba go fihla dikela, re sa šetše le gore diphaphano tša rena ke tša mohuta mang ka gore morero wa rena wo mogolo ke go bona gore batho ba rena ba mo Afrika-Borwa, le ba ba tlilego gomme bjalo ba hweditšego maswanedi a go dula mo Afrika-Borwa ba hwetša tše di kaone?

Re rile re le Disenthareng tša Tirelo tša Thusong (Thusong Service Centres) kua mollwaneng wa thoko ya Mpumalanga ra hwetša tlhohlo ya gore badudi ba ka kua Swaziland ba tla ka mo Afrika-Borwa gomme ba hwetša mphiwafela. A ke ke gatelele gape gore ke yona ye e re belaetšago. Re belaetšwa ke gore naa gabotsebotse go direga eng ka lebaka la gore re bea melao ge letšatši le hlaba le ge le dikela.
Bjale re tla dira gore batho ba e obamele; gomme tšona tšeo ka moka

ga tšona e tla ba taba ya maloba. Re a e thekga pego ya gago, Tona. Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.

Ms B A SCHÄFER (Western Cape): Chairperson, Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. As the previous speakers have stated, we acknowledge the work the department has done to provide the 6,8 million people with ID smart cards, giving people dignity through identity.

However, the reality is this: In the space of one year, this department and its onerous visa regulations, which have still not been revoked, have prevented 13 246 tourists from visiting South Africa, equating to a revenue loss to the South African economy of R7,51 billion. In 2013, 9,6 million tourist arrivals were recorded. For three consecutive years, the numbers dropped and, in 2016,
only nine million arrivals were recorded. This is a direct consequence of the visa regulations, a direct negative impact as a result of Home Affairs legislation.

Then, to add further fuel to the fire, biometric data capturing has resulted in huge congestion at O R Tambo International Airport. Why did this happen? It was as a result of there being insufficient Department of Home Affairs personnel to deal with passengers – so

much so that travellers have rated O R Tambo as one of the worst airports to travel through.

Despite the rebuttal by the tourism sector and a call across the board for the regulations to be revoked, the Department of Home Affairs took to Twitter in defence and responded in a way that one surely had to laugh. Ms Tshwete, the Department of Home Affairs spokesperson, defended the reason for not being able to revoke the regulations, stating that ―because the law came through Parliament, they can’t be changed overnight‖. This resulted in an immediate response from and correction by the former Minister of Tourism Derek Hanekom who reminded Ms Tshwete that ―you really ought to know that the provisions are in regulations, not the Act‖. Everyone should know by now that the regulations can be revoked upon signature and do not require any lengthy process at all. So, whilst you may be pleased to report the significant progress made in implementing Cabinet decisions, it is really still not good enough.

Whilst you may equate the necessity of unabridged birth certificates to human trafficking, let me ask you the same question I asked the former Minister who, frankly, could not answer me: How many incidents of child trafficking or human trafficking have Home Affairs intercepted in the last 12 months when approximately

22 million passenger movements at O R Tambo and 12 million passenger movements at Cape Town International have occurred over the past
12 months? My guess is none. The challenge to human trafficking, Minister, is not a lack of legislation but, rather, the failure to enforce existing legislation. How many such cases have been intercepted at our country’s border crossings where millions annually pass through?

What a challenge this new Minister has to deal with – the legacy left by her predecessor, the hon Malusi Gigaba. After all, her department and former Home Affairs Minister Gigaba have been accused of currying favour with ANN7 Indian national employees with fast- tracked work permits on the one hand and citizenship to the Guptas meant for ―prominent businessmen, including executives of multi- nationals, and sports people‖ on the other.

Corruption has reared its ugly head in this department, with the Minister herself expressing quite clearly that she had found it depressing to uncover the levels of corruption evident in her department. Quite depressing it is when no one in the department can tell us how many million undocumented immigrants are currently living in South Africa. To really add a cherry to the top of the cake, this is a department that, as we enter into the Fourth

Industrial Revolution, has yet to digitise its records management. Even your own ANC discussion document acknowledges that this department is unable to do its job right now. This department certainly has a great deal of work to do.

I sincerely hope that the Minister is aware that her department plays a vital role in the growth and stimulation of this economy. This department had not approved a single business visa for a new start-business in 2016 and, when the department increased the minimum amount for a business visa to R5 million, she – I am sure – is well aware of the fact that the opportunity to create jobs and transfer skills is completely lost. General work visas are proving virtually impossible to renew since the implementation of the current immigration laws in 2014 when the Department of Labour took on a more significant role in the process. In fact, it is a total disaster for anyone ever trying to attain a work visa. We live in a globalised world, and the choice to start a business elsewhere will depend on the ease of being able to do so. Just look closely at Mauritius that welcomes the opportunity for jobs and growth.
Mauritius is open for business, they say, and open for business it certainly is.

In addition to this, the department’s new proposal to incorporate the Ministry into the national Departments of Justice and Correctional Services and State Security is completely illogical. This decision seems to remove the responsibilities of the department, essentially placing them in other state organs. Why then have a department in the first place if, for example, the Minister seeks to remove her department as a clearly identifiable border authority, leaving the SAPS, the SA National Defence Force, and Sars to somehow co-ordinate their actions to protect the country’s points of entry? This is completely ludicrous.

Furthermore, the department’s desire to charge a fee on a slew of transactions and administrative processes related to banks and national service providers reeks of potential corruption and state capture. Using the personal information of each and every citizen in South Africa to hold the private sector ransom for a fee is not viable. In fact, it is completely scandalous. South Africans already pay tax to fund this department, so why pay additional fees to make use of a public service? This also raises the question as to where the funds raised by the department will end up – in an account to better government services or in the pockets of ANC-linked families such as the Guptas?

In the Social Development Ministry, we have already seen the chaos resulting from unlawful deductions from SA Social Security Agency grant payments, not to mention the complete maladministration of the entire department. It seems to me that Home Affairs is following in Bathabile’s footsteps.

Chairperson, it is becoming increasingly clear that the Department of Home Affairs seems to be imploding. From removing its mandate and placing it solely onto the shoulders of other Ministries to reforming its service provisions to open up the Ministry to corruption and increased control of the state over the people, the Department of Home Affairs is making some worrying transformations. We should be concerned – really concerned. Essentially, the Department of Home Affairs is slowly becoming yet another ANC failure at national level. I thank you.


Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Sihlalo wale Ndlu, okokuqala kufuneka kucace gca okwekati emhlophe ehlungwini ukuba impembelelo yelizwe jikelele nemo yothintsho rhoqo kwihlabathi nakwezopolitiko idlala indima enkulu kwimo yelizwe. Ingcaciso malunga nemida yethu ngomnye umba ombaxa otshisa ibunzi nekubuzwana ngawo apha kwilizwe loMzantsi Afrika.

Nangona ilizwe jikelele neziphumo zalo zibangela kube kwavula zibhuqe, kwazenzele nakwamlebese kubantu bonke beli zwe, kuyinzuzo nalapho ukuba buthathaka kwemo yokhuseleko kwimida yethu. Kungenzeka ingxuba-kaxaka nakulo Mphathiswa umtsha osandul’ungena kuba ushiywe kubole bhutyu. Singakhange sikhawulele iinkawu zisiya kusela, kubalulekile kuthi sonke ukuba sikuqwalasela oku njengelizwe kuba ilizwe lethu alinakho ukukhuseleka ngaphandle kokhuseleko lwemida yethu. Ukufudukela kwelinye ilizwe akusiso isisombululo ngaphandle kokudlala indima engundoqo kwisohlwayo sokungeniswa kweziyobisi ezingekho semthethweni nokukhusela ilizwe kwiintsongelo zamanye amazwe. Iziyobisi zingena zingenile imihla nezolo nabantwana bethu basemngciphekweni wokufunda nempilo yabo ibuthathaka.

Kumba wolawulo lwemida yaseMzantsi Afrika, into yokuqala ekufuneka kuthethwe ngayo sisivumelwano soMthetho oYilwayo weGunya-bantu woLawulo lweMida yethu [Border Management Authority Bill]. Lo mthetho uyilwayo ujolise ekumiselweni kwegqiza elinye ziziphath’amandla ukuhlangabezana nemicimbi yonke enxulumene namazibuko angena eMzantsi Afrika. Oku kuquka imimandla enjengerhafu yezorhwebo lwabathengi kunye nemigaqo.

Thina siyi-DA sinengqiniseko yokuba ukushenxa kulawulo ngokumanyeneyo akuyiyo indleko. Luhlalo-wabiwo-mali olumalunga nama-
22 ezigidi sezigidi oluthe lwabiwa nekufuneka zifezekisiwe,kodwa kuye kwafunyaniswa ukuba le ndleko ibisenokuba sisixa-mali sezigidi sezigidi ezi-3 ubuncinane xa besinokufezekisa ngokwethu izinto ekufuneka zifezekisiwe.

UMphathiswa osandul’ukufika utshilo kwintetho yakhe kuba uye wagxininise kwinto yokuba iindleko ezinjalo zithomalalisa inkxalabo yokungena lula kwimida yethu. Ngokuqinisekileyo urhulumente ebenokusebenzisa ezinye iindlela ezingeyiyo indleko ukuhlangabezana nalo mba endaweni yokutshintshiselana ngale mali kweminye imiba yamasebe, ingakumbi kweli sebe. Kutsha nje isebe lifumene intsongelo yodushe lwabasebenzi ngenxa - noxa ke luphele izolo udushe olo- yomba wentlawulo yokusebenza ixesha elongezelelweyo besetyenziswa nangemigqibelo, phofu benyanzeliswa- ndizibuze ukuba iphi na inkululeko yokuzikhethele.


The freedom of choice.


Lubalulekile ulawulo olundiselekileyo lwezezimali kuwo onke amasebe, emsebenzini, kwimbonakalo nemfuneko yohlolo rhoqo. Umba wethu

wesibini yindlela entsha esetyenziswayo yolawulo lwemida yethu. Okwangoku, ulawulo lwemida yaseMzantsi Afrika luphantsi kwamalungu ohlukeneyo aseburhulumenteni - oogxa bam bayibizile iGupta - nenjongo yawo ilukhuseleko lweemfuno zelizwe nokugcina imida yeRiphablikhi ikhuselekile. Isikhweba sisezakuhluba sibone ukuba bangene njani apho. Ingaba bangene ngokusemthethweni kusini na kuba kucacile ukuba lo usukileyo ushiye esazi yonke into kuba ngoku ubekwe kwenye indawo ukuze avule le pesi yokugqibela.

Ngokuba nguMphathiswa weSebe leMicimbi yeKhaya kunye noMongameli babeziziphath’amandla ezizodwa zokubhangisa ithuba lolawulo lomda wethu ngolungelelwaniso, ngokumanyeneyo, ngokuluncedo kurhwebo olufanelekileyo nokuthatha uhambo olukhuselekileyo, ngokomthetho weli lizwe nowoMgaqo-siseko, mawulandelwe.

Siyi-DA sibona luyimfuneko ulawulo oluqotho kweli Sebe. Iinkonzo zeNgeniso zaseMzantsi Afrika kufuneka ibe zizo kuphela ezinegunya nemvume ngokusemthethweni yokuhlangabezana neziphumo zokunikezela ngamandla angenakufaniswa nanto kwimigaqo yelizwe. Asisodwa kumbutho wethu weqela eliphikisayo kuba kwano-SA Revenue Service, SARS, naye uyayivuma le nto. UPravin Gordhan, owayesakuba ngumncini wezezimali kunye noNhlanhla Nene babona ngasonye nathi. Mandiqukumbela ngelithi

kunyanisiwe xa kusithiwa umphanda ongenatywala uyahuhuza, loo nto ibonakala phaya kobekekileyo, uMampuru ukuba ...

USIHLALO WEBHUNGA LESIZWE LAMAPHONDO: Ndiyabonga sisi ixesha lakho kudala laphela

Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Kusashiyeke umzuzu undithathele imizuzu emibini.

Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, special delegates, MECs, hon members and distinguished guests, it is with a profound sense of humility that I stand before you to debate the Home Affairs Budget Vote for 2017-18 financial year. Being in front of you hon members, I am reminded of wise words of a great leader of the continent, the late grandson of Africa, Thomas Sankara:

Let us avoid rumblings that give rise useless theoretical flowcharts devoid of interest to the masses, simply destined to contemplation by few dreamers and self-gratifying fanatics.

I am standing here today thinking of what I said last week about the story of Matume that it will be in order to always have somebody that will come to be in front of us criticise and give credit to

where it is due. I have a birth certificate, ID document and also a marriage certificate because of the department ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, please take a second. Hon Mampuru and hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana desist from what you are doing. Both of you must stop what you are doing. Please continue hon Nyambi!


Mr A J NYAMBI: Lenkhulumo yami ... [Kuhlaba lulwimi.]


Mme T J MOKWELE: Ke ne ke botsa gore a sebui se ka tsaya potso.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, do you wish to take a question?

Mr A J NYAMBI: I am ready. Please proceed?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Are you aware that when we were in Bophuthatswana we had our IDs and passports and they were readily on time to be renewed, unlike now with the present juncture?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, please proceed!

Mr A J NYAMBI: I was looking forward to deal with a question that will be linked to the budget we are dealing with today.
Unfortunately, we are failing in that regard. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, you put your question ... [Interjections.]

Mr A J NYAMBI: No, I am responding. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is responding to your question. Sir, please proceed?

Mr A J NYAMBI: I knew that what was said by Sankara was referring to a person like you. You were just standing up without a substantive
... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi! Please hold. Hon Makue!


Mnr E MAKUE: Voorsitter, ek is jammer. Ek wil nou die bespreking onderbreek nie, maar daar is ’n toeskouer in die galery wat foto’s

neem, nogal met ’n liggie aan. Jammer, Voorsitter. [Chairperson, I am sorry. I don’t want to interrupt the discussion, but someone in the gallery is using flash photography. Sorry, Chairperson.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, ma’am, please, you are supposed to participate with your ears not with your phones and your cameras. I was addressing you ma’am, please don’t take photos without our permission. Hon Mokwele, are you on another point of order? Proceed!

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order, Chair, I don’t care what my hon member is saying about Sankara’s quotation ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s not a point of order. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... He knows very well that that quotation refers to them as the ANC. I don’t care on what you are saying to us ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... And let me tell you, you are failing our people as the ANC. It’s true.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele! I want to address you on your point of caring. When you say I don’t care in your private space it is your business, hon members. When you say you don’t care and you are occupying a public platform in a House that is supposed to be leading the country, it becomes a big issue. I would want to ask members once more that you watch your language, gestures and vocabulary. What you do in this House reflects out there. Coming back to your point of order, hon Mokwele, how you feel is not a point of order in this House. I don’t care it was not a point of order. hon Nyambi! Please proceed.

Mr A J NYAMBI: Let me enjoy the response. When you wanted to ask a question, I thought you had one. I decided to give you an opportunity and you exposed yourself [Interjections.]. A great philosopher once said ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... of having an ID ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF NCOP: Hon Mokwele, don’t drown the speaker.

Mr A J NYAMBI: ... Sometimes it is better ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No ma’am, you will not drown out the speaker. Please take your seat. You were not going to rise up until I told you not to drown out the speaker. Thank you very much. Please take your seat. Hon Nyambi, proceed! Hon Nyambi, please take a seat. It is your third point of order in the last five minutes.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I want to tell the hon Nyambi that it is the responsibility of Home Affairs to give people IDs and death registrations. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please don’t try my ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: It’s not like they are doing something ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, don’t try my patience! You rose on a point of order. That is not a point of order. I will not entertain any other frivolous point of order from you. Hon Nyambi, please proceed!

Mr A J NYAMBI: The package in terms of response it is wise words by a great philosopher that it is always wise to keep and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and leave no doubt. That’s what is happening. Minister ...


... lolwabiwotimali lolu, mine ngilunikela kugogo laKhoza le eNkomazi ...


Mr M M CHABANGU: Is it parliamentary that Mr Nyambi should say a leader is a fool in his quotation?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, did you say any member in this House is a fool?

Mr A J NYAMBI: I will never say that Chairperson. No, not at all.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, please repeat what you said?

Mr A J NYAMBI: A greatest philosopher taught us that it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and leave

no doubt. That’s a quotation from a greatest philosopher. That’s what I said.


Mphatsiswa, eNkomazi langibuya khona kunagogo laKhoza. Gogo laKhoza ngamati ngiseseneminyaka lesitfupha, kepha nginele kuba lapha ePhalamende ngamati njengagogo logugile. Wafika ehhovisi letikhalo tebantfu nencwadzi yakhe yamatisi lebeyikhombisa kutsi watalwa ngemnyaka wango 1965 kepha abonakala kutsi ungugogo. Emva kokutsi siletse lesikhalo kulelitiko lakho; litiko lakho lakwati kutsi liletse bantfu labafanele kutsi balungise indzaba yagogo laKhoza ngekutsi bambute imibuto basebentise nebantfu labakwatiko kukubona loko. Lobekuyinkhinga kutsi umnftwana wakhe wekucala bekubonakala kutsi wamftola aneminyaka lemibili. Kwabonakala kutsi watalwa ngemnyaka wango 1941. Bamlungisela gogo laKhoza. Loko, ngiko lokusenta sisho kutsi nanoma tikhona tinkhinga kulelitiko, kukhona lokuhamba kahle.


The challenges that I want to bring today that you have to attend, especially as the people that have a programme as NCOP – taking Parliament to the people; we went to Free State, in the areas bordering Lesotho. I am from Mpumalanga; I am part of the

municipality that is bordering Swaziland and Mozambique. The challenges of those municipalities that are residing within those borders are very unique. If we can have a unique team that can be dedicated to assist those municipalities because the situation is very unique and now with our programme of previsit in Free State, we picked up some challenges and I think it will be in order hon Minister, when going to Free State in August with our programme – taking Parliament to the people; if you can avail yourself or the Deputy Minister to be part of the programme, it can go a long way to assist.

The second issue as a challenge is that of vacant posts. We are of the view that there is no department that can be able to function at an optimal level with a number of vacant posts. It is an issue that needs urgent attention so that the department can be efficient and effective.

We are quite clear about the values of the Department of Home Affairs, to mention just a few: people-centred and caring; patriotic, professional and integrity; corruption free and ethical; efficient and innovative; discipline and security conscious. These values, hon Minister, if we can have any person with a tag as an

official of your department being imbued and understanding the implication these values, it can go a long way.

The issue of the upgrade of the six posts of the largest land ports of entry in our country. I will speak about those that we have in Mpumalanga - Oshoek and Lebombo border posts, the challenges that were raised then, even though there is progress, there are still some issues that are outstanding and if those can be attended to.
The closing hours issue at Matsamo and Mananga can be attended to at committee level so that we can make sure the outstanding issues are sorted in time.

When I was on my seat I asked myself during your turn, hon Hattingh, what is it that we are debating here? [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr C HATTINGH: Home Affairs!

Mr A J NYAMBI: I get a sense that somebody prepared your speech for a wrong Budget Vote. That is why it was clear that you don’t understand the core mandate of the Department of Home Affairs – it is to secure and confirm our identity and citizenship. It is not even dealing with R5 million or R1 million, it is dealing with the entire population of South Africa. Right from birth, you have to get

a birth certificate. At a particular age, you must get an Identity Document and get a passport. When you die, you are supposed to get a death certificate.

I am proud when those things are being done in an efficient way. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Are you proud to say these things?

Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Hattingh ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: We don’t praise fish for swimming!

Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Hattingh ... [Interjections.]

Mr C HATTINGH: Write your speech!

Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Hattingh, every time when you are here, I am always looking forward to a day when you are going to be able ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, please take your seat! Hon Hattingh, you look ready. Is that a point of order?

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, I would have thought that the hon House Chair would know that he cannot address members directly but address members through the Chair. It’s a basic Rule. Perhaps we should look at a refreshment course for House Chairs.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Chair, I am standing on a point of order. Is it possible that the member of EFF, hon Mokwele, to defend hon Hattingh, a DA member in the House?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dlamini that is not a point of order. Hon Nyambi, please proceed!

Mr A J NYAMBI: We are quite clear that the role of the department in securing identity and status of every citizen is in line with our Constitution and the Republic of the democratic South Africa. Hon members, the supreme test of any Parliament in the current period is the ability to inspire confidence of the people that tomorrow will be better than today. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: With you? Not with the ANC!

Mr A J NYAMBI: Through you hon Chairperson, hon Hattingh, as an ANC we support this budget not because it is fashionable to support but because it will put us on the right track towards realising the

strategic objectives as presented by the department. That is why Abraham Lincoln said: ... [Interjections]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Quote! Another quotation, my friend?

Mr A J NYAMBI: ―As opposition, you can fool some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.‖ [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: You are!

Mr A J NYAMBI: The desperation that you displayed when were here will deceive those that don’t understand. We are not confused, we aren’t desperate ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: You are!

Mr A J NYAMBI: We are not dishonest; we understand what we are doing. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: You don’t understand what you are doing!

Mr A J NYAMBI: No wonder when you want us to give you an opportunity to ask questions, you expose your ignorance. We support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I would like to thank all members who participated in the debate and I would also within my limited minutes try to clarify few issues.

Firstly, I think hon Dlamini set a clear tone in terms of where the department is. She raised the issue of security of documents and the importance of citizenship. It is very, very important for all of us to avoid contradictions when dealing with the mandate of the Department of Home Affairs. We have to admit that there seem to be confusion and contradictions in terms of what the department stands for, where it is today and where is it going to. I picked up the issue around the granting of citizenship to specific families.

Ms T J MOKWELE: the Guptas! Say it! Not specific!

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon members will know that officials in government including public representatives make decisions based on facts. We have a responsibility and a duty to ensure that our

processes have integrity, they are honourable and they can pass the test of time. They are neither informed nor determined by headlines.


Moh T J MOKWELE: Setilo ke seo, mma! Ke ne ke mo bontsha setilo.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele! No, you are not an usher in this House.


Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke ne ke re motl Tona a se ka a kgatologa ...


...shy away from mentioning the Gupta family because we mentioned that the family was given citizenship. She must say it with her own words, she must say it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, mam. Thank you very much, that is not a point of order, at all. Proceed, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I want to reiterate and emphasise the importance of the integrity of our processes. As a country which is

respected within the league of other nations, we have to follow policies and legislations. In the process of the questions that have been raised and what is in the public domain under the leadership of the director-general, there is a process of reviewing and collecting data on any query around the granting of citizenship including what seem to be catching the headlines - questions around the Gupta family. But I want to assure the House that whatever we say shows that decisions are taken with integrity and the dignity of society.

I think hon Mathevuila of the EFF seem really to be completely confused.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, hon Mathevula did not debate it was hon Mokwele. Hon Mokwele, please take your seat.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, we presented the Bill to Parliament which is meant to help all government officials to be able to co-ordinate and co-operate - the Police, Defence and the SA Revenue Service, Sars. There was no intention of overtaking each other’s roles and responsibilities because they are legislated. It gives cause for concern if a public representative seems not to understand that I cannot usurp the roles of the police, and I cannot usurp the responsibilities of the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa.

It is important to understand that some of the issues raised here call for the tightening of security at the points of entry. That is why the whole attempt of boarder management authority is meant to do to eliminate the influx of people who are in the country for wrong reason.

I would like to also thank hon Khawula. I suppose he seem to have a concern about rural communities and the poor. We would like to draw your attention to the fact that we inherited the infrastructure of the colonial and apartheid era.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Apartheid, apartheid, but you are not doing anything about it. Stop blaming apartheid for everything! You are failing!
You are failing!

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: For them the homeland systems were not meant for dignified people. The new government has not had its own project of infrastructure development, but under the repositioned Home Affairs it is not only about technology, but there is a vision. We have to look at the location of these offices so that the poorest of the poor should not pay the highest price in visiting the offices by taking two or three taxis. [Time expired.] Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.


(Policy debate)

Vote No 35 – Transport:

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Mutshamaxitulu [Chairperson], members of the National Council of Provinces, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, member of the executive council, MECs, present, SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives, acting director-general, DG, leadership and representatives of transport entities, members of the media, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, addressing the Conference of Heads of State of Non-Aligned Countries in Delhi in March 1983, President Oliver Tambo said:

The apartheid system was a socioeconomic and political anachronism which has been very aptly identified as a crime against humanity and that to catalogue the manifestations of that crime is itself a harrowing exercise and evokes a deep sense of revulsion.

In the past 23 years of freedom and democracy, the ANC of Oliver Tambo has been working tirelessly to improve the overall condition of life of the majority of South Africans. Service delivery has improved dramatically underlining the fact that government ensured that it meets its commitment to advance progressively towards the achievement of the goal of better life for all. The fight against poverty has been a central tenant of the work of the democratic government and drives the government’s programme of action.

We remain resolute in the implementation of the National Infrastructure Plan which aims to transform our economic landscape while simultaneously creating significant numbers of new jobs, and strengthen the delivery of basic services. We will transform the structure of the economy by creating black industrialists with the biggest chunk of our investment in infrastructure continue to be directed towards broad-based black economic empowerment, benefiting youth, women and people living with disabilities. In order to continuously broaden wide participation of all South Africans in the transport value chain, the Transport Sector Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, B-BBEE, Charter Council undertook nine provincial road shows with the intention to engage all subsectors of transport to redress the apartheid legacy of economic exclusion.

Using the Transport Economic Regulator Bill, we intend to deal decisively with regulatory shortcomings across the transport sector, which will lead to transparency in pricing and levelling the playing field within the transport industry. We also conducted the National Transport Master Plan 2050 road shows in provinces. The plan aims to achieve an integrated, smart and efficient transport system supporting a thriving economy that promotes sustainable economic growth, supports a healthier life style and provides safe and accessible mobility options. We have successfully gazetted the draft National Land Transport Strategic Framework which represents an overarching national five-year transport strategy that provides guidance on transport planning and land transport delivery by national government to all provinces and municipalities.

The attitudes and irresponsible choices of our road users continue unabated to cause loss of lives on our roads. This is so because human factor remains a causal factor for most of the crashes and injuries we continue to experience on our roads. We all know that this can be avoidable if we all prioritise road safety and use our roads responsibly. Our statistics indicates that people who died on the roads are passengers followed by pedestrians, drivers and cyclists. Most fatal crashes happened in the after hours of the day,

especially from 18:00 to 22:00 to the early hours. The intensified collaboration and engagement between the Department of Public Service and Administration, the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC, provincial governments and labour formations will pave the way for the introduction of a 24/7 work shift within the traffic law enforcement fraternity ensuring the availability of officers on the road at all material times. Cabinet has approved the new road safety strategy. There are plans now in place to conduct road shows with provinces, municipalities and private sector to deal with the scourge of road fatalities and injuries.

It is therefore critical for appropriate co-operative and intergovernmental agreements, formal partnerships and oversight structures to be established. This is done to ensure road safety is dealt with in a cohesive, transversal and integrated manner. Equally important, we have started a parliamentary process led by the Portfolio Committee on Transport to consult extensively on the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences, AARTO, Amendment Bill which will introduce a demerit system intended to improve the conduct and behaviour of drivers on the roads.

The department endeavours to enhance travel experience by improving and maintaining the national road network for the social development

and economic growth of South Africa. At 750 000 km the South African road network is the tenth longest in the world. Of this, the national road network serves as the arteries for balanced economic growth across our country. This represents approximately 3% of the total road network but it carries more than a third of all daily traffic and 70% of road freight movement in South Africa. The
2 948 km toll network represents 13% of SA Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, network with the 19 238 nontoll network that receives grant from government. It must be noted that the current funding model of our roads does not provide for cross subsidisation which therefore makes it important for Sanral to finalise the new tolling policy as well as finding other mechanisms to fund our road infrastructure.

Heavy-duty trucks are causing many of the road safety and infrastructure problems we continue to experience in our provinces. We have reviewed the National Freight Logistics Strategy which underpinned by the Back to Rail strategic intervention. The upgrading and expansion of the capacity of the R573, known as the Moloto Corridor, straddling the provinces of Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Gauteng has commenced. This 139 km stretch of road on average is used by approximately 50 000 commuters daily; including buses, taxis and heavy trucks. The Moloto Corridor, as a strategic integrated project, SIP, plays a significant role as a logistics spine to

transport people, minerals and agricultural produce into regional markets and to our export harbours. Apart from boosting the Waterberg mineral belt, the Moloto Corridor will also boost local economies along the Moloto Road - notably the Sekhukhune District in Limpopo and Dr J S Moroka and Thembisile Hani Municipalities in the Nkangala District Municipality of Mpumalanga and Tshwane in Gauteng.


Ndzi tsakela ku tivisa vanhu va ka Sekhukhune leswaku hi ta va yisela xitimela lexi xi nga ta suka eka Sekhukhune xi ya eJoni.


We have appointed contractors to commence with the Moloto Development Corridor by expanding the current road, making it more user-friendly. At the end of the project, we have created 12 500 jobs. We are also going to unbundle the bus contract in this corridor to widen participation by small, localised and designated groups. In terms of the Moloto Rail initiative, the department concluded a feasibility study that confirmed rapid rail as the preferred long-term transport solution for the corridor. The Moloto Rail Development Project was included in a list of projects submitted to the Forum on China-Africa Co-operation, Focac, for funding. Through Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, we

have entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with the China Communications Construction Company Limited, CCCC, to explore specifically areas of possible co-operation on the implementation of the Moloto Rail Corridor Initiative.

We have also developed the Draft Harrismith Hub Framework in consultation with the affected stakeholders including the Free State provincial government. The aim of this project is to strengthen the logistics and transport corridor between South Africa’s main industrial hubs and to improve access to Durban’s export and import facilities. At the provincial level, feasibility studies for the development of the hub have been conducted and options analysis interim report has been produced.

The rehabilitation of 5 390 lane kilometres of provincially managed roads and the resealing of 11 976 lane kilometres are projected to cost R32,5 billion through the Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant, PRMG. In the 2017-18 period, R10,75 billion is allocated for the Provincial Road Maintenance Grant, popularly known as the S’hamba Sonke programme. Through this programme, we continue to address the spatial inequalities, create job opportunities, improve rural transport and its infrastructure, and also open the rural economy to new investment and development while also providing the much needed

maintenance to the road infrastructure. With this programme, we have created 137 887 jobs, of which 28 933 are youth, 54 918 are women and 180 are people living with disabilities.

We will continue to increase the PRMG over time in order to ensure preventative maintenance and reduction of the backlog to be achieved simultaneously. For the current financial year the allocations of the Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant to provinces is outlined below.

To improve the efficiency of the spending on road maintenance in provinces, the allocations in the Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant for the coal haulage network is reprioritised in the current financial year to create a new performance component in the grant.
This component is expected to be R1,9 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period, and will include a new performance measure to ensure that investments are made in a manner that reduces the costs of transport in the economy.

Our biggest railway deal in South Africa’s history is predicted to propel our economy to a new level of prosperity. Our investment in rail transportation is the beginning of the rolling out of the government’s comprehensive rail programme over the next two decades.

This positions our Rolling Stock Fleet Renewal Programme as the catalyst for the transformation of our Metrorail services in particular and public transport as a whole. Our immediate and urgent task is to stabilise and provide a predictable Metrorail service within current capacity, measured by increased ridership, customer satisfaction and efficiency. Critical as well is for us to ensure that we provide our demand driven services according to customer travel needs, and ensuring predictability and reliable information dissemination.

To this extend, we took delivery of 18 of the 20 new trains affectionately known as ―The People’s Train‖ built in Brazil. The new trains are part of the first rollout of 600 train sets that will be implemented over the next 20 years. The remaining 580 trains will be built in South Africa at a local factory, located in Nigel, Ekurhuleni. Attached to the local factory, government is facilitating the development of a supplier park that will support the manufacturing at the factory with local components. The move will help achieve localisation and transformation goals including participation of Black Industrialists, small, medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs, women, youth and people living with disabilities. The next deployment of the new trains in the 2018-19 financial year will be at Saulsville, Mabopane, Naledi, Khayelitsha,

Umlazi, and KwaMashu. Through the Public Transport Network Grant, PTNG, we continue to fund the infrastructure and operations of this integrated transport networks in the 13 cities across South Africa.

To address ongoing financial difficulties in the subsidised bus services, we agreed with provinces to increase the Petrotech Oil and Gas Inc, PTOG, baseline to 9,33%. The contract rate escalation will be 7,82% while the remaining 1,5% will be spent on stabilisation.
The department has finalised the process of reviewing the impact and performance of the taxi recapitalisation programme. Equally important, government is finalising the public transport subsidy policy, which will focus more on subsidising the user than the operators, irrespective of the mode of transport they use. It is totally unacceptable that other modes, particularly the taxis, are not included in the current subsidy regime despite the 2013 National Household Travel Survey results which indicated that taxis are the most preferred public transport mode, accounting for over 68% of the daily commuting public. Given this disparity in subsidies or lack of it, we will be meeting the taxi industry, the rail sector and the bus operators to discuss the public transport subsidy policy to make sure that all modes of transport are actually included in the subsidy policy.

Aviation in South Africa has an extremely important role to play in achieving sustainable growth and development for the tourism industry and economy at large. To this effect we have developed the National Aviation Development Plan to guide and support our overall airport network planning and the development of our regional as well as local airports. As South Africa, we are therefore serious about airport route expansion and the increase in domestic connectivity.

Coupled with a depressed global economy, the implementation of various Operation Phakisa initiatives as well as outcomes of the broader Maritime Development Agenda continue to yield positive results, ranging from economic development, job creation, capacity building, and generally reclaiming South Africa’s status as a maritime economy. We also continue to implement Shova Kalula bicycle project to promote and maximise the use of bicycle transport in rural, peri-urban and urban areas and farming communities.

Having said the above, we therefore table the budget for 2017-18 that stands at R59 billion which is 6,8% increase from the 2016-17 budget. It is for this reason that as the ANC government in presenting this budget, we remain committed to ensure that this budget is put to good use and will go a long way to improve the lives of our people, particularly the black majority. This budget

will contribute towards the dismantling of the apartheid manifestations and legacy. Working together we move South Africa forward.


Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. [Va phokotela.]

Mr M RAYI: Chairperson, Minister of Transport, Minister of Home Affairs, hon members, special delegates, distinguished guest, fellow South Africans, it is my pleasure and great honour to debate the budget vote on transport on behalf of the ANC in its quest to transform the lives of the South Africans populace for the better.

We are debating this budget vote at the time when we are commemorating the 41st Anniversary of the Youth Uprising in Soweto; the 21st anniversary of our democratic Constitution and the 54th anniversary of the erstwhile Organisation of the African Unity, now known as the African Union, which is marked in tandem with the centenary of a struggle icon and internationalist, the former and long-serving President of the ANC, Comrade Tata Oliver Reginald Tambo.

In our quest to build a united, nonsexist, nonracial, democratic and prosperous South Africa, we are tasked to emulate the ideals which Tata O R Tambo epitomised in his entire life in the struggle for humanity. Tata Tambo displayed selflessness and patriotism and played a remarkable role in bringing us to where we are now.

He was part of the National Action Committee which drafted the Freedom Charter following extensive nationwide inputs and consultations. The Freedom Charter today remains the lodestar and backbone of our constitutional democracy.

In our commitment to better the lives of the people, we are taking the legacy of Tata uTambo which seeks to liberate people from the bondages of poverty and backwardness, irrespective of their race, class or gender. Despite the significant gains we have made since 1994, we still have challenges where our people struggle to provide for their families, inequality is deeper and joblessness continues to haunt our people, particularly the youth and women.

These challenges are at the centre of policy priorities we set ourselves as the ANC at our 53rd national conference in Mangaung in 2012, which noted that: struggle in unemployment remains unacceptably high, particularly amongst the youth, women, especially

black women, continues to bear the brunt of structural imbalances in the economy.

Therefore amongst others conference resolved that: Government ambitious infrastructure programme will support the growth of our supply sectors, unlock key bottlenecks in the economy and underpin the structural transformation that we seek. It is a programme based around strategic integrated projects that will have a catalytic impact on job creation, unlocking resources, developing the poorest regions of our country, overcoming spatial inequalities and developing the region.

In addressing these backlogs, President Zuma reiterated the ruling party’s call for Radical Economic Transformation in its drive to ensure that the NDP Vision of an inclusive, equitable and fast- growing economy is achieved. This call is aimed at ensuring that the economy is placed on a qualitatively different path that strives for sustainable socioeconomic growth and development.

The department’s budget for the 2017-18 financial year amounts to R69 billion, which will focus on improving mobility and access to social and economic activities by maintaining the provincial and national road networks, upgrading and maintaining rail

infrastructure, and improving public transport for rail and road commuters.

These activities contribute to the realisation of outcome 6, and efficient, competitive and responsive economic infrastructure network of government’s 2014to 2019 Medium-Term Strategic Framework. The department’s total expenditure over the medium-term will mainly be driven by transfers to public entities, provinces and municipalities for infrastructure spending, operations and maintenance.

The budget vote and department commits to continue funding and monitoring the S’hamba Sonke Programme, which is aimed at rehabilitating, upgrading and maintaining road infrastructure as well as creating the much needed jobs - the Minister has gone to town with regard to the details of this. Part of the funding for this programme will be prioritised for patching of potholes through Operation Tselantle. This programme aims to create 6 million work opportunities, of which the bulk will be for women, youth and people with disabilities.

To deal with the optimum split between road and rail cargo, and in order to lessen the burden on our roads and increase the rail market

share, cabinet has recently approved the Rail Freight Strategy, which will ensure an increase of the rail market share of 2% per annum over the MTEF period to 2019.

Through the implementation of the recommendations in this strategy a more enhanced and efficient enforcement will be realised, including the promotion of road safety; an improved protection of infrastructure; and a reduced environmental impact. The strategy seeks to establish an integrated framework of quality-regulated competition creating an enhanced environment for the road-freight sector to better serve the needs of the South African economy.

In our journey and commitment to develop the lives of our people through infrastructure, the ANC-led government has launched infrastructure programmes that will help in alleviating bottlenecks of the economy and expediting the improvement of social infrastructure in bettering the lives of our people.

Investment in public transport and transport infrastructure in rural areas will remain a priority for the medium-term. Our people in remote rural areas ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much hon member. Please take your seat. Hon Mokwele, what is the point of order?

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order, Chair, I just want to check with the speaker if he would take a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?

Mr M RAYI: I will take it when I am done with the speech.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): He is not ready. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele! Take your seat.
Mr M RAYI: Thank you, House Chair. Our people in remote rural areas cannot be cut off from the major economic centres. Transport infrastructure remains the bedrock for providing access to markets, economic opportunities and access to social services. The National Household Travel Survey 2013 has highlighted that a very large percentage of the population cannot afford transport costs. It further reveals that the population has limited access to transport services. We will continue to assess and review the impact of the Rural Transport Strategy, which will inform transport services that

are optimal and impact positively in critical areas that need assistance.

In the last financial year, Sanral continued with the training of contractors in both construction and maintenance projects. About 4
120 people in road-building and other skills were trained, and 15 721 jobs were created through the fulfilment of the contracts. This is a clear indication that government is committed to transform the lives of our people. Significant changes have been made.

As outlined in the ANC 2014 election manifesto that: ―The ANC-led government will continue to invest in the upgrading and expansion of the country’s rail, port and pipeline infrastructure as part of our effort to shift freight transport from road to rail.‖

In May this year, President Jacob Zuma successfully handed over the new Prasa trains to the general public for operation by Metrorail between Pienaarspoort Station and Pretoria Station as the first deployment corridor. To date, 18 new trains, known as the People’s Train, which the Minister alluded to have been delivered. The new trains as part of the first rollout will be implemented over the next 20 year. The remaining 580 trains will be built in South Africa by Gibela at a local factory, located in Dunnottar Park Ekurhuleni.

Recognition that the majority of our population rely on public transport has seen us invest R5,9 billion in the planning, construction and operating of the Integrated Public Transport Networks, IPTNs, in the 13 cities, with four already running and six under construction.

Mr L B GAEHLER: On a point of order Chair, can the hon member take a question, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Are you ready to take a question, hon Ray?

Mr M RAYI: I said as soon as I am done with the speech.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): He is not ready, continue hon Ray.

Mr M RAYI: Those that are in full operation are: Rea Vaya, in Johannesburg; A Re Yeng in Tshwane; MyCiti in Cape Town; and Go George in George.

The National Household Travel Survey revealed that barriers to mobility in the country have been reduced in the past 11 years, yet several challenges remain. Rural households have better access to public transport and have reduced travel times. There has been a general increase in the percentage of households who used taxis from 59% to 68,8%; buses from 16,6% to 20,1%; and trains from 5,7% to 9,9%. This reflects a general increase of the percentage of travellers in the country during 2003 and 2013.

Indeed, the ANC-led government is a government at work with considerable improvements having been made in the public transport sector. All public transport modes must be integrated and must remain accessible, reliable and affordable to the elderly, people living with disabilities and the most vulnerable in our society.

The development of the national transport master plan 2050 is a comprehensive, multimodal, integrated, and dynamic plan that provides a sustainable framework not only for implementing transport but also for providing infrastructure and services for the future.
Most importantly, the master plan seeks to develop continuously and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of a multimodal transport system. It seeks to ensure a transport system that is well-regulated and well-managed and effectively co-ordinated, with co-operation

between government spheres, relevant private sectors, civil society partners and stakeholders.

The national transport mater plan’s primary goal is the development of an integrated, dynamic, sustainable framework for transport infrastructure implementation and services provision. It reflects the shifting of transport policy away from the typical demand response position where transport infrastructure is provided in response to sufficient demand, to a developmental and transformative approach.

This means that transport projects have to be used as a catalyst to unlock development and support transformation in our country even though there is not always sufficient demand. The national transport master plan has set a development benchmark. For example, due to internal and external pressure on African governments to accelerate the development of critical infrastructure in transport, ICT and energy, individual African infrastructure strategies are being aligned through the programme for infrastructure development in Africa.

From a regional perspective, policy alignment finds no greater expression than in the SADC Regional Infrastructure Development Plan

and the Comesa-East African Community-SADC Tripartite Inter-regional infrastructure master plan. The Gauteng Provincial government, through the Gauteng department of Roads and Transport, GDRT, has developed a 25-year integrated transport master plan for the Gauteng Province and it is duly aligned with the national transport master plan.

We have intensified our input into Operation Phakisa to ensure that the Marine Transport sector transforms and plays its optimal role within the Oceans Economy. The Green Paper on the National Maritime Transport Policy has been finalised. With this policy we intend to develop the Maritime Transport Sector that will capitalise on the potential of both shipping and also support industries as significant contributors to economic and employment opportunities.

The African Maritime Charter was also approved by Parliament. The Charter provides a legal framework to address challenges in maritime transport facing African countries. It also offers concrete proposals on the establishment of appropriate programmes and institutions. I am ready to take questions.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Gaehler, he is ready to take questions. Hon Mokwele, you will be the first one. [Interjections.] Order, Mokwele! Order!

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chair, the hon member, you say that there are over 4 000 contractors trained; how many of these trained contractors have received any projects from the department? Secondly ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Unfortunately, hon Gaehler, his time has expired. [Laughter.] Thank you, hon Ray. If you start with the debate, hon Member, the time will be fixed.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, members and guests in the gallery, the past year has been a year of many challenges as the ANC usually puts it; a year of failures in the true sense of a word. Scandals have rocked the zupta boat - corruption, fraud, money laundering looting of state-coffers as we have just saw in KwaZulu-Natal in this department, nonservice delivery, cadre deployment and so the list goes on.
With all the ructions in the governing party, is no wonder that the ordinary man on the street gets the short end of the stick.

As public representatives we should never forget that we serve the public and that remains our main priority. Let us start of where we left a year ago in this same debate. For a whole year the Department of Transport was threatening the public with legal action on e- tolls, fees were not paid, using Gupta consultants to try and pave the way forward on how to retrieve the outstanding money which should have not being paid in the first place since the broad public consultation was not done as required by the SA National Roads Agency Limited and National Roads Act and the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act.

The DA believes that we start with broad public participation by either scraping the system as a whole, or that it be funded in a way that taxpayers do not have to bear this heavy load in an already struggling economy caused predominantly by this ANC-led government of yours, hon member.

Secondly, we are awaiting the promised rail infrastructure with rail networks to take many heavy trucks of our busy roads and provide a functional rail transportation system.
However again and unfortunately, all we see is the Transnet parastatal in bed with the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and the Gupta family; scandal after scandal. Did you hear

that? Should I remind you, Chair? The R5,3 billion paid to the Gupta company’s offshore bank account, which amounts to a cost of
R10 million per locomotive for securing a contract. Then

R2,65 billion was paid for trains that did not even fit our railway lines makes you think.

The Guptas are the main beneficiaries, yet again forcing the taxpayer to cough up. Just before this, the chief executive officer, CEO, Mr Letsoalo decided he deserves a 350% salary increase without the board’s consent and charged Prasa for it. Not 10%, not 15% ladies and gentlemen, 350%. This is a corruption cover-up, one scandal after the other. There will now be a serious investigation so we heard. Why did it not start a year ago when we rang alarm bells in this same august House? You see, too many people are involved, starting with number one. This is the catch-22 situation that the remaining good officials in this department have to put up with. This results in employees having to decide to go with the flow or get out!

A concern that needs to be addressed is pupil transport which has collapsed in some areas of our country. The Department of Basic Education revealed that approximately 12% of qualifying pupils in the Northern Cape did not receive transport during the previous

financial year. We need to know whether this situation is caused by the uncertainty as to whether the mandate falls within the Department of Basic Education, or the Department of Transport. We believe that the national government should make a clear distinction between who does what, as the failure in service is impacting upon scholars.

Since 2015, when 12 944 people died on South African roads, this figure has increased to 14 071 in 2016 - a 9% increase in road deaths. The reasons for human factor deaths were as follows - 39% jaywalking pedestrians, 18% hit-and-run crashes, 14% high-speed accidents, 7% overtaking in the face of oncoming traffic and 6% only related on drugs and fatigue. These statistics shows that much more attention should be given to pedestrian’s behaviour and education as they are the most vulnerable. Further, alcohol abuse and pedestrians not wearing visible colour clothing at night plays a large role in this. Four hundred and nine people died on Northern Cape roads in 2016. These statistics are of a great concern and serious intervention is of cardinal importance.
Accidents in South Africa cause the country hundreds of millions, and it seems that the departmental programmes to prevent fatal accidents are not working. Years ago, we asked the Northern Cape Department of Roads and Public Works to engage with the Transport

Department to prevent accidents at crossings where fatalities often occur near Kimberley. Unfortunately, many lives have since been lost before they now started planning this construction of circles and removing these unsafe crossings on the N12, N8 and R357 at Kimberley.

The DA believes that many lives could have been saved if the department acted back then. The upgrade of these intersections by replacing them with circles will significantly improve road safety, as vehicle conflict points are much lesser than at bigger intersections, making it the safest option.

Perhaps the national Department of Transport should investigate this phenomenon and apply their minds with SA National Road Agency Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, to address this fatal statistics we currently encounter. Chairperson, let us be more proactive in preventing the further loss of lives on our roads and seriously begin to act with urgency. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, only between 20% and 30% of South African households own a private car, leaving almost 80% of the population depending on public transport for their transportation needs. Of those households lucky enough to have someone who works,

that person will likely spend up to 40% of their salaries on transport alone. Despite this, the state of public transport in South Africa is in serious ruins. These are some of the problems we think should be tackled to resolve the problem of transportation in this country: The collapsing service of Metrorail due to decade of poor maintenance on their rolling stock; the high number of unroadworthy busses and taxis leading to large number of recent road crashes, deaths and serious injuries; poor maintenance of public roads in the country; poor planning and arrogance by government leaders leading up to matters such as the unresolved Gauteng freeway improvement project and the forced tolling on road users.

By its very nature, transport requires heavy investments in infrastructure and proper planning of transport infrastructure maintenance and upgrades could unlock opportunities for thousands of jobs. The EFF calls for a serious rethink on how money is spent in designing infrastructures. Due to the important role that public transport plays, different government departments need to work together in aligning and integrating plans and operations. Further, government continues providing subsidies to transport operators on an increasing basis. Bus transport is currently the biggest beneficiary of government subsidies with 48%, Metrorail receives 29%, Gautrain 15% and bus rapid transport 8%. This benefits

transport mainly used by middle class South Africans and there is no measurement of how these subsidies even benefit users.

Taxis which are used by the majority of South Africans for their daily transportation do not receive any subsidies. The continuing marginalisation of the taxi industry is one of post apartheid South Africa's most sinister of actions. We call on government to think clearly and seriously about the centrality of transport to our economic development ideals. As a result, we call on the department to do the following: Invest heavily in connecting the country with a rail network that will be able to transport both people and goods timeously, safely and at affordable prices, this will take the pressure off our road networks and minimize road accidents; invest in making use of carbon friendly means of public transport for travelling short distances, this would minimise traffic congestion in city centres and reduce our carbon footprint; do away with the tolling of national roads which does not benefit anyone involved; tax heavily big logistics companies for the use of our roads to transport their goods; this must be done to encourage these companies to use rail transport; introduce an accident tax to tax SABS, South African Bureau of Standards, and other alcohol making companies and use this money to strengthen the Road Accident Fund; and in the short term resolve the Prasa, Passenger Rail Agency of

South Africa, board fiasco and ensure that trains are functioning to their maximum capacity.

These interventions will help resolve the perennial problems relating to the transport sector in this country. Because of this budget ... ability to address the underlying problems facing public
... because of this budget ...


... hina tanihi vandla ra EFF, hi alana na yona Vhoti ya Mpimanyeto ya Nomboro ya 45 ya swa Vutleketli. Inkomu.

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): House Chairperson, hon Minister of Transport Mr Joe Maswanganyi, hon members of this House, distinguished guests.

I rise on behalf of the ANC, the people’s movement and the people of Mpumalanga, the province of the rising sun, to add our voice in congratulating, Minister Maswanganyi on his maiden Budget and Policy speech. I have no doubts in my mind that any person of sound mind will agree that the Budget and Policy speech was honest, visionary and seek to place transport at the centre of South Africa’s

visionary development agenda. Congratulations, once more hon Maswanganyi.

It is now common cause that this year we celebrate the life and times of President Oliver Reginald Tambo, a noble son of the African soil, who permanently departed the land of the living in 1993.
Standing in front of Tambo’s immortal remains, his long time friend and comrade, President Nelson Mandela, taught us that Oliver Tambo cannot die as long as we are still alive, because Oliver Tambo was an embodiment of the struggle against apartheid and the creation of a society, wherein the people of South Africa live free of poverty, unemployment and inequality.

The Budget and Policy speech we have been debating here today is testimony that Oliver Tambo, cannot die as long we are alive. The speech does not only place transport at the centre of South Africa’s economic development and transformation, but acts as an agent of change by committing R59 billion to transporting the people of South Africa, most of whom were placed very far from their areas of work and central business districts by the apartheid’s spatial planning. The budget wants to ensure that these commuters arrive at work safe, on time and do not shoulder the high cost of transport, which

consumes their low wages as intended by the previous regime. Indeed Oliver Tambo cannot die as long as we are live!

The people of Mpumalanga also send me here to affirm that the work of creating the society Oliver Tambo envisaged continues. They see this work daily and the Moloto Corridor Project is one example. They are extremely grateful and excited with the progress the project has registered today, which includes the appointment of contractors to commence with the construction of the Moloto road.

Our people are also waiting with hope and optimism to benefit from a portion of the 12 500 jobs the project will create and are encouraged by the pronouncement by the Minister, that the department will unbundle the bus contract in this corridor to widen participation by small, localised and designated groups. Indeed Tambo cannot die as long as we are alive!

I would have been too economic with the truth, if I do not inform this House that Minister Maswanganyi refused to be briefed by officials on the Moloto Project in a private boardroom in Pretoria, but instead instructed them to brief him in KwaMhlanga, alongside the masses of our people. This briefing affirmed Tambo’s vision of creating a government of the people by the people. We thank Minister

Maswanganyi for this act, but most importantly it confirms that Oliver Tambo did not die, but continues to live through many deployees of the ANC and the work our government is doing. Indeed Oliver cannot die as long as we are alive.

I am pleased to inform this august house that, in the briefing Minister Maswanganyi held in Mpumalanga, the people of Mpumalanga unequivocally stated their readiness to participate in the Moloto Development Project as service providers and not only labourers.

Their readiness is also bolstered by the Social Enterprise Model, which was developed by the provincial government under the visionary leadership, of the hon Premier, D D Mabuza. The model places our people at the centre of any development in their surroundings and demands that all service providers doing work in our communities must procure almost all their material in those communities.

As we speak, our provincial government is preparing our communities for this economic revolution by making sure they setup cooperatives and are up skilled to manufacture the required material. Indeed Oliver Tambo cannot die as long as we are still alive!

The call by the President for teachers to be in school and in class on time, teaching for at least seven hours a day, will be futile if learners themselves are not in class on time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon MEC, please take your seat.

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): Okay.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, why are you on your feet?

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chairperson, as we were on oversight I would like to know if the hon member will take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, are you ready hon MEC?

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): I have seen that questions of this House don’t make any difference, though I won’t.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): She is not ready; take your seat, hon Faber. Continue hon MEC.

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): That is why the Mpumalanga provincial government, views the provision of scholar transport and the Shovakulula Program, the Minister spoke about in his speech as key interventions in creating conducive environment for learning and teaching.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon MEC, take your seat. Hon Essack, what is the problem?
Mr F ESSACK: Will the speaker on the podium, please takes a gift simple questions.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): She said she is not ready. Okay, are you ready for Essack’s question?

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): If questions were inputs that are going to make our people’s life better, we would but this questions in this House doesn’t assist.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Continue hon MEC. Order hon members! Hon Essack and hon Mokwele, please order! Allow the hon MEC to continue with the speech. Hon Essack?

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I am addressing you with due respect.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are addressing me?

Mr F ESSACK: If I may address you?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Essack please take your seat. Don’t be out of order.

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chair, may I address you, please?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat, hon Essack.

Mr F ESSACK: Can I address you hon Chairperson?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You can’t, take your seat. You were disturbing the speaker. That is why I called you.

Mr F ESSACK: But Chair, I need to address you on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, take your seat.

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, but if the speaker at the podium says that the questions of this House is irrelevant and doesn’t make a

difference to the country, then I must ask you with absolute respect, what is the speaker doing in this House?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, the speaker is not ready for your question. Continue hon MEC with the speech.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, Rule 36 of this House cautions against irrelevance and repetition, so I request you for the decorum of the House to allow the member to present without interruptions.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I am sure hon Essack remember the Rule of the House. Continue hon MEC.

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): That is why the Mpumalanga provincial government, views the provisions of scholar transport and the Shovakulula Program that the Minister spoke about in his speech as key interventions in creating conducive environment for learning and teaching. In the previous financial year, Mpumalanga received 450 bicycles from the National Department of Transport and procured
6 000 bicycles from its own coffers. This was done to honour the commitment we made to our people that no child shall be denied an opportunity to learn.

We dare not forget that it was President Oliver Tambo who gave us the burden to competently look after our children when he said and I quote: ―The children of any nation are its future, a country, a movement, and a person that does not value its youth and children does not deserve its future.‖

Indeed Oliver Tambo cannot die as long as we are alive. We cannot ignore the importance of a user friendly, safe and efficient road network in the creation of Tambo’s envisioned society, which is about an economy that is growing and all its citizens sharing in that growing economy. It is now an established fact, that sound road infrastructure is a cornerstone for economic growth and development. That is precisely the reason why our provincial government supports the provision of the Provincial Road Maintenance Grant, PRMG, to implement preventative, routine and emergency maintenance on the provincial road network.

In the case of Mpumalanga, PRMG, includes special funding that was made available since April 2011 to rehabilitate and maintain the coal haul road network. Despite this capital injection, the demand for rehabilitation remains high across the Gert Sibande and Nkangala regions.

We also need to protect our investment in the provincial transportation network through a commitment to effective maintenance. To achieve this, we depend on the, PRMG, to implement preventative, routine and emergency maintenance of the provincial road network. However, there is a growing need to introduce some flexibility on the PRMG which will increase government’s ability to provide an efficient, competitive and responsive economic infrastructure.

My proposals for flexibility on the PRMG, includes allowing provinces to maintain or construct roads in rural areas, wherein there is a dire need to for transport infrastructure, not only to connect villages, but also to attract investment and develop rural economies.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon MEC, let me call the hon Faber to order and you know you can’t drown the speaker, please.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat, hon Faber.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is the point of order? Take your seat hon MEC.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, when we did parliamentary oversight we have to dodge and dive ... [Inaudible ]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Faber that is not a point of order. That is a point of debate and you can’t do that.
Continue hon MEC.

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): I am certain that the thought is worth entertaining by both National Treasury and the Department of Transport. Indeed Oliver Tambo cannot die, as long as we are still alive.

The South Africa, Oliver Tambo committed his life to creating, has created a demand for an integrated transport system. Demographic changes and minor spatial changes in spatial development, mainly due to rural urban drift have resulted in unanticipated changes in mobility patterns which ultimately affects public transport usage.

As a result, government needs to increase significantly its investment in building and renewing transport infrastructure, in order to meet the increasing demand for transport as well as provide reliable, safe and affordable public transport system. That is why the Mpumalanga Provincial government welcomes with glee ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, your style will never be accepted in this House. You can’t clap your hands while the hon member is speaking.

Ms T J MOKWELE: My apologies.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, please.

Ms S J MANZINI (Mpumalanga): ..., the inclusion of the City of Mbombela amongst the new 6 cities that are expected to run operations of the Integrated Public Transport Network. We have no doubt that this massive investment in bus infrastructure will change the complexion of the City of Mbombela and our people will move from point A to B with ease. Indeed Oliver Tambo cannot die as long as we are still alive.

The budget and policy speech by the hon Minister emphasises the importance of a sound rail network in creating the prosperous society Oliver Tambo envisaged, and commits R19 billion to improving our rail network. This is an important investment which we must support and invest time in learning from European and some Asian countries wherein trains play an important role in their development.

That is why as the Mpumalanga Provincial Government we are actively engaged in the endeavour to expand the freight network, through Swaziland Railway and Transnet, who have agreed to develop a 146 kilometres railway line between Lothair in Mpumalanga and Sidvokodvo in Swaziland as well as upgrading adjacent networks in both countries.

The key objectives of the project are to enhance regional integration and provide viable connections for rail freight from Western Swaziland to markets in South Africa. There are many other opportunities to develop rail transport for commuters across the province and create the prosperous society Oliver Tambo lived for. Indeed Oliver Tambo cannot die as long as we are still alive.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon member Khawula! Order, hon members! Continue with your speech. Hon members, please. Hon MEC, allow the hon ... [Interjections.] That is why I am calling her to order, the hon Khawula wants to continue with the speech. Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: 16:44 But she must apologise!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Allow the hon Khawula to start debating. Over to you, hon Khawula.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the citizens of South Africa and their visitors continue to suffer the ravages of recklessness on the roads. The increasing number of roads fatalities is of grave concern to the IFP. This is so because these fatalities are due to avoidable causes. This calls for the Department of Transport and its sister departments to apply stricter measures in order to try and secure the safety of road users in our country.

One has to admit that the major role-players in ensuring safe road usage are the road users themselves. It is a pity that South Africans have not fully internalised the culture of protecting one another on the roads to the extent necessary for reducing road

carnages drastically. However, the Department of Transport also has a role to play through strictly enforcing the rules on the roads.

This will not be easily achievable in a situation where some traffic officers get involved in accepting bribes on the roads for the wrongs committed by motorists. This will not be easily achievable either, in a situation where the visibility of traffic officers on the roads is not the maximum. The IFP calls upon the new Minister of Transport and his team to speedily attend                  to these deficiencies.

Recently, in the South Coast of KwaZulu-Natal, in Ugu District, several lives have been lost on our roads due to some of these deficiencies. About nine people from Thuvukezi in Ezingolweni lost their lives when a bakkie collided with a truck on the road between Harding and Port Shepstone. In the following week, three more people lost their lives when a truck carrying bricks collided with a bakkie in Umzumbe River on the road between Hibberdene and Port Shepstone.

Hon Minister, the IFP has been repeatedly calling upon your predecessor to kick start the process of moving heavy load away from the roads and back to rail. I even reminded the hon Minister that there used to be a rail to carry timber between Harding and Port Shepstone, between Ixopo and Park Rhynie, and other areas. These

used to be a great relief to the overburdening of our roads with heavy load.

The allegations of price inflation in the tender between Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and the American and Chinese companies are a serious matter. The allegations suggest that funds amounting to more than R5 billion were wrongfully paid by the country in order for some self-centred authorities in our country to pocket South Africa’s taxpayers’ money for themselves.

The IFP hopes that you will uncover wrong doing and get to the rock bottom of these allegations. We also hope that you will work with all relevant authorities in order to get the culprits to account for whatever wrong doing in this matter.

In a question to the former Minister of Transport about how much has so far been spent on the Taxi Recapitalisation Programme, TRP, per province, the response suggests that these amounts have been paid to taxi owners in the different provinces of our country: Eastern Cape
— R467 million; Free State - R292 million; Gauteng — R870 million; KwaZulu-Natal — R460 million; Limpopo — R429 million; Mpumalanga - R493 million; Northern Cape — R36 million; North West— R418 million; and Western Cape — R439 million. The total is R3,9 billion so far.

This raises eye brows! Has all this money really been paid to taxi owners, or perhaps some of it has gone to the wrong pockets of some rogue authorities? Hon Minister, the IFP requests a forensic audit on this spending. The taxi industry in South Africa is one of the biggest industries that contributes a lot to the economic development of the country and must be given the necessary attention it deserves.

South Africans in the Gauteng province and other road users through Gauteng have been subjected to a highly inconsiderate taxing through the e-tolls on the Gauteng roads. The IFP calls upon the Minister to consider the grievances of the people still and review the status of the e-tolls in Gauteng. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon member Khawula. The hon Grant! Hon Mokwele!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Before you can speak, Chair: With due respect ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, take a seat hon Grant. What do you want to say, hon member?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am just wondering: Where is hon Nthebe?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): The hon Mokwele, you are out of order! [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: But he is my Chief Whip and I don’t know where he is. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Please take your seat. Take your seat, hon member. Continue, hon Grant.

Mr D GRANT (Western Cape): Hon Chair, hon Minister of Transport, hon members and office bearers, delegates from the provinces, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, it is an honour for me to represent the Western Cape Provincial Parliament today in the NCOP during Budget Vote 35: Transport.

We note the budget tabled by the hon Minister. In particular, we note and support the hon Minister’s core pillars underpinning this budget: One, in transforming and improving the lives of our people; two, improving transport systems and operations by finalising outstanding policies, strategies and legislation; three, creating jobs through transport operations and capital investments; four,

continually improving transport safety and security; and finally, the strong commitment to quality public transport infrastructure and services.

The Western Cape Government acknowledges the hon Minister’s continued focus on and commitment to the Integrated Public Transport Network approach, IPTN approach, primarily funded by national government through the Public Transport Network Grant, PTNG. Like the hon Minister, we believe that the ability to provide public transport that is accessible, affordable, safe, reliable and convenient requires an Integrated Public Transport Network approach that invests in public transport infrastructure and that provides sufficient subsidy support to operations to enable the service to be truly accessible to all users, particularly the poor and marginalised.

We look forward to seeing the national department’s public transport subsidy policy in this regard. We also support the continued focus on and development of integrated transport planning. We emphasise that such integrated planning must consider reforms in the urban landscape and changes to our infrastructure planning approaches to support the development of quality public transport over the use of private vehicles.

We wish to thank the hon Minister for singling out the IPTN operational cities. We are proud that both cities receiving PTNG funding in the Western Cape - Cape Town and George - are operational, and together provide close on 90 000 of the total
125 000 average daily passenger trips currently provided by the operating cities. The Western Cape Government reaffirms its commitment to continuing to use the national grant funding to maximum effect, and we will continue to lead the way in providing high quality and sustainable public transport services.

We also note the commitment by the hon Minister that six additional cities will be operational in the current financial year. Given this, we highlight two areas of concern: Firstly, the need for greater predictability and security in the funding provided by the PTNG, noting the long-term nature of public transport investment programmes and operations; and secondly, the national Cabinet approved reduction in the grant envelope, and the resultant impact on the scale and speed of rollout of infrastructure and service.

We recognise the limitations that the hon Minister is operating under but request that mechanisms be provided to ensure that greater certainty be provided to Cities within the Medium Term Expenditure Framework period, MTEF period, and beyond. Efficient long-term

planning for public transport investment requires funding linked to a secure income stream that extends beyond the MTEF. We also remain concerned about the level of funding that is devoted to public transport, and are very disturbed by the shrinking funding envelope already ravaged by inflation.

Like the hon Minister, we recognise the important gap that the minibus taxi industry fills in the existing public transport network. This approach has been acknowledged in our IPTN interventions in Cape Town and George. In fact, in George, the operating company is composed 100% of former minibus taxi operators. The Western Cape's Department of Transport and Public Works is providing the operating support to the services provided in George from its baseline budget. We are therefore significantly subsidising the commuter through this baseline allocation.

It is worth noting that a recent Financial and Fiscal Commission report highlighted that in South Africa approximately R54 billion is spent annually on public transport operations, and that over
R30 billion of this amount comes from fare revenues paid by public transport users. This profiles the challenge that our commuters face, where up to 40% of household income is being spent on public transport by some of the poorest commuters.

This statistic is the inverse of the international benchmark which sees international government operating subsidies of around 60%. In South Africa, the government operational subsidy is around 30-40%. To achieve the international benchmarks for public transport subsidisation will require a doubling in the national subsidy provided to road-based public transport and rail operations.

While we are aware of the economic circumstances which result in the opposite trend within the budget currently tabled by the hon Minister, we remain very critical of many of the underlying reasons for the current slump in the country’s economy. It is virtually impossible to achieve appropriate service budgets within a badly managed economy, where international confidence is plummeting as a result of poor political decisions.

The economy of the Western Cape is also negatively influenced by poor or inefficient service flowing from the overall responsibilities of the Minister’s department. Allow me to take the opportunity to highlight only two examples. Firstly, the importance of tourism to the Western Cape economy is widely recognised. In order to access tourist attractions, visitors have to travel around the province and many need to be transported by tourism operators.

Quite rightly for reasons of quality and safety, these operators have to be accredited and licensed. These processes have worked efficiently over many years on a provincial basis, but since August 2016 have been taken up - as the law allows for — by the NPTR in Pretoria. Unfortunately, the quality of the service provided by the NPTR has been spectacularly bad. Return times are ignored, often by more than 100%. Documents are lost and have to be resubmitted. Calls and e mails go unanswered. In some cases, operators have lost their businesses as a result. Were it not for the ongoing intervention of my department, many more operators would, in fact, have done so.

My appeal to the hon Minister is to ensure that the NPTR has the required capacity and commitment to carry out its statutory duties. Economic activity needs to be encouraged, not hampered in this way.

Alternatively, this function should be delegated back to the Western Cape. Secondly, we note the hon Minister’s commitment to rail improvement, through investments in rail infrastructure and rolling stock but are appalled at the extent to which these commitments are caught up in allegations of massive fraud and managerial inefficiencies.

We reiterate our urgent need for new passenger rolling stock and rail infrastructure in the Western Cape. While we do not believe we are the only province in this position, there is a deep concern about the state of rail in the Western Cape. All indications are that the commuter rail service is in a state of collapse and that the impact on commuters, on roads and traffic congestion, and on the alternative services -namely bus and minibuses - is extreme.

While rail should be the cornerstone of public transport in the City of Cape Town, and the broader region, we are seeing that cornerstone being undermined and nearing total collapse. Accordingly, hon Members, we urge the hon Minister to address the significant challenges faced in the commuter rail sector - from safety and security to improved operations, infrastructure and systems. This includes the revitalisation of the institutional structures — Metrorail, Prasa and the Prasa Board.

My department has provided assistance to Metrorail wherever possible. The return in improved service for the more than 600 000 dependent commuters has been insignificant given the years of neglect and the lack of direction and commitment from national government since 1994. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N D MASEMOLA (Limpopo): House Chairperson, hon Minister Mkhacani Joseph Maswanganyi, hon MECs from provinces, members of the House, comrades and colleagues and fellow South Afrians, we are meeting here today to debate the appropriation bill of the Department of Transport, few days after the people of Lesotho held successful parliamentary elections and inaugurated their Prime Minister.
Through that process, they have demonstrated that the historical significance of a social revolution does not lie in the degree of violence but in its political and social consequences as a premise for social transformation.

As we congratulate them, hon House Chairperson, we believe that the historical event they have just concluded would have a wide and lasting impact as they advance an agenda for social change on a grand scale. Undoubtedly therefore, this positive development will lead to substantial changes from challenged systems and crisis displayed before the elections through political actions aimed at stabilising the political systems of their country.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Masemola, please take your seat. Hon Magwebu, why are you standing?

Mr L V MAGWEBU: House Chairperson, on a point of order: I am now confused. We have a responsibility, the House has to follow the speakers list and I do not see whether Masemola was the MEC from Mpumalanga or this is Masomela. I do not see the member delivering his speech on the speakers list before us.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Magwebu, we all have the speakers list. If you do not have it at hand, it is in the ... [Interjections.]

Mr L V MAGWEBU: On a point of order: But he is not here. The gentleman speaking now is not in the speakers list before us.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, thank you very much. They have helped you with the speakers list.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: If it was amended, it was never conveyed to us House Chairperson which is against the Rules.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Well, the list that I have has hon Masemola who is on the podium. Continue, hon member.

Mr N D MASEMOLA (Limpopo): Given that their country was enmeshed in a set of political and social contradictions too complex for easy adjustments ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Hon Masemola, please take your seat. Hon Chabangu, why are you standing?

Mr M M CHABANGU: On a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is the point of order?

Mr M M CHABANGU: In fact, what hon Vusi is trying to say is that the hon MEC from Mpumalanga is not on the list. Therefore, why was she given the platform without being on the list? Now, there come hon Masimula ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Let me address you hon Chabangu. You are not supposed to repeat ... I see you hon Chief Whip, let me respond to him first.

You are not supposed to repeat what the hon Magwebu has said because we have ruled on the matter. The hon MEC is on the list even the hon Masemola, who is on the podium, is now on the list.

Let me request the lady to help us with the correct list. My worry is why are you raising this now because the hon MEC was here debating. [Interjections.] Yoh! You are very late. Hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: I think the list was revised based on confirmation and the limitation is only that the revised list has not reached all members. For that we apologise but I think the hon MEC is on the list. So, thanks. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much for the apology Chief Whip. Let us close the matter and move on with our speakers list. The Chief Whip has apologised. Continue hon Masemola.

Mr N D MASEMOLA (Limpopo): Given that their country was enmeshed in a set of political and social contradictions too complex for easy adjustments that occurred because of the dislocation of thoughts and endeavours of unbending postures which necessitated political mediation. Through that process, equilibrating mechanism of balloting occurred which addressed tempestuous political situations, addressed and ushered in conditions of hope.

House Chairperson, the political parties in that country which netted electoral capital, would have to ensure perspectives of

interacting forces and essence of stimuli, between and among themselves so that they could form a durable government in the interest of Basotho people and functional systems for domestic essence and external influence.

Transport is essential in the social and economic life of society and plays a transformative role in the lives of the people .Its effectiveness should be ensured at all times, driven by the necessary systems that are profound for policy success and delivery of quality services. It remains a catalyst for development and redress of spatial distortions created by apartheid government.

House Chairperson, transport infrastructure and systems in our country are globally competitive to international standards land have placed our country to continue demonstrating its capacities to roll-out massive infrastructure programmes on roads, rail, ship, freight aircrafts. Indeed these suites of services account for our commitment to serve our people and better conditions of their lives.

Given that all the projects that are being implemented continue to have massive opportunities related to thereof. Notwithstanding the backlog that we are tackling based on collaborative planning and approaches between provinces and as well as the national department.

Indeed transport infrastructure serve as the main links between us and places of socioeconomic activities, the region and the entire continent, thus moving volumes of goods for social and economic use. In this regard, the ANC has been able to provide strategic policy direction and framework to ensure unbiased provision of transport services.

Intermodal facilities and systems have been provided necessarily for the conurbations network and settlements throughout the country and our province in particular. This is done to ensure strong, diverse, efficient and sustainable transport services. Management of transport infrastructure and maintenance of the roads are critical elements of the strategy, and in this regard in the province, through Roads Agency Limpopo, we continue to ensure that provincial roads network is visible, and further transport infrastructure plans have been elaborated that articulate the direction we are taking together our people.

With regard to improving the conditions of our roads, we are looking forward to the train in Sekukune Land and the rail between Lephalale and Tubatse as minerals hosting zones of our country and our province in particular.

Understandably therefore, working together with the National department, we will continue to respond to areas of need as we push back the frontiers of development challenges.

The Department of Transport in the province has introduced reliable Electronic Vehicle Trip Management System that has covered 450 buses for accurate records required for proper spending relating to buses subsidies. And the remaining fleet will befitted in the short to medium term given the budgetary allocations required and probably this budget will come very in handy in this regard.

Secondly, the department has contracted some driving schools to offer driving lessons to selected learners in some schools across the province as a pilot which will be rolled out to many schools in the following financial year, resources permitting.

House Chairperson, road carnages are a worrying phenomenon given the increase in some areas despite the differentiated reduction successes. This happens in spite of serious efforts made and therefore, we should continue to call upon motorists to be patient on our roads and observe traffic rules - because many lives are being cut short due to negligence and circumstances that could be avoided. Such human behaviour is a major challenge and hence the

need for aggressive efforts coupled with continuous law enforcement to change the situation. And that could be achieved working together with social formations in society. As such, the provincial department is recruiting 250 traffic officers who will, after the completion of their training, get deployed throughout the province to increase traffic policing visibility.

Hon House Chairperson, the leadership of the taxi industry remains and continue to be an important organ of transport services and its centrality cannot be over-accentuated. Hence the need for continuous co-operative efforts given the critical dynamics associated with the industry.

Therefore, stability and harmony in working relations between and among taxi associations is essential, facilitated and managed by the department through legal platforms created, which often need resources for capacity and discharging of responsibilities.

In this regard, the taxi council and the overarching structure continue to get the necessary attention obviously this budget, resources will be appropriated based on their plans in provinces and nationally for the success and prosperity of the industry.

Hon House Chairperson, sleaze continues to remain a challenge that wants to become a permanent feature of the public service and administration. As a province, we have put systems in place to fight this scourge and free the administration from this challenge and its probable effects of diverting resources into meaningless activities.

We appreciate the National White Paper on Civil Aviation that recognises co-operative governance and management of airports infrastructure as the necessary stimuli contributing factor to the socioeconomic development of the country. Equally as the province, we are working very hard to improve the infrastructure systems and governance at Gate Way Airport Authority Limited in Polokwane so that we could turn it into a centre of economic activity and excellence.

We are looking forward to work with the national department in this regard and better the conditions of our people. Equally important, we are looking forward to a sustained and effective scholar transport that will make it possible for our people to crisscross the length and breadth of our province with ease for quality education to our citizens. With this, we are supporting this budget


Re re go mokgalabje yo wa gaborena yo, a sware a tiiše. Di mo tsogele mo a ilego gona; a gopole gae a se ke a ja mponyane [bread that was eaten at the mines in South Africa] a lebala, a tsebe gore kua gae go na le tše re di emetšego. Re a leboga.

MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Re a leboga; ke dumela gore Tona o go kwele.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chairperson, members and fellow South Africans, when the Minister came to the podium, presented and outlined his vision, mission, what he seeks to achieve, and the plans that have been put in place, all I could do was to marvel. However, I was taken aback and began to think how the Minister is going to do this because we have a problem. Minister, with due respect, words are cheap; they must be backed by action. The rubber must meet the road.

The question is: With all this beautiful vision and what you want to do, how are you going to do that because you do not have a director- general, DG? The Director-General of the Department of Transport was suspended last year already and six months down the line if not more, you do not have a DG but an acting DG. The DG is sitting at home, sipping cappuccino and having muffins ... [Interjections.] ...

and this is the problem we have. Every rand and cent must count in South Africa. He must be held accountable. It cannot be accepted that you are taking too long; you need to expedite this.

You are a Minister who has been appointed through the – what is it – midnight cabinet reshuffle. You need to be a leader. Some people have said and still say, leaders lead and set the tone. As a Minister, you must always realise that and I am sure you’ll appreciate this. I’ll help you with another saying again. If you want to be a leader, there is no time for niceties. You must make difficult decisions. If you want to be a leader, then you must lead. If you want to be a nice person, then you are not and cannot be a leader. You must go and sell ice-cream.

Secondly, Minister, I want to take you back to your department. Your department under administration underspent the 2015-16 financial year budget. These are the findings of the Auditor-General, AG:  R1,3 million of funds were underspent in Programme 1: Administration. They were shifted across the programmes to cover expenditures on transport for state funerals.

In Programme 4: Road Transport, your department overspent

R121 million on electronic national traffic information, eNatis due

to travelling of your staff and overspending on Sihamba Sonke project, which was also a problem. In Civil Aviation, your department again underspent on various projects and overspent on operational expenditure due to what? Due to travelling!

Hon Chairperson, again this is typical of how the department handles its own funds. In Programme 6: Maritime Transport, your department overspent its budget by a whopping R36,6 million again. Irregular expenditure amounted to R123 million. Notwithstanding all of this, I again ask: Prasa! Prasa! We had Collins and we now have another Collins Letsoalo. You have a problem, Minister.

The first one, Collins Montana was again dismissed. Now, Collins Letsoalo has just been released or fired by the board. You have a problem there. Again, what did he do? He increased his salary or had a salary hike to benefit himself. We have a problem. We must expedite ... There must be accountability. There must be a report that tells us if there is money to be recovered; and it must be recovered quickly. Every cent must be recovered with interest. This matter cannot be left open and hanging.

You need to lead from the front. You need to set the tone that public representatives and official civil servants will be held

accountable. It cannot be that the state-owned entities become milking cows or cash cows for the employees.

Lastly, I want to quickly go back to the hon members. Hon Rayi and hon Manzini, I could not agree with you more when you quoted the legend, Tata Oliver Reginald Tambo. He comes from home - my home. He is a legend and comes from a home of other legends. But let me tell you something. I have a problem because the ANC has destroyed everything that he stood for. Everything that Oliver Tambo stood for, the ANC has destroyed it. [Interjections.]

Here is the question then: What would Tata Oliver Tambo say if he were to show up in this House and see what South Africa has become under the ANC, where we have the President who is corrupt or has corrupt relationships; where we have the ANC that has dragged this country into junk status? What would Oliver Tambo say if he were to show up and see the country and nation we have become, where we have been pushed into recession by the ANC? What would Oliver Tambo say if he were to see the ANC that is playing the race card? This is the problem that we have.


hon member is making a serious allegation against the sitting President of the country who was never found guilty ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon member! Order, hon Essack! Hon Chetty, please allow the hon Chief Whip to say what he wants to say.


hon member is making a statement of fact on matters that have not been served before the courts against the President. So, please make a ruling!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon Chief Whip. Let me ask for advice. I’ll come back to your point of order. Hon Nyambi.

Mr A J NYAMBI: I just want to ask a simple question to the member about hon Zille, if he is ready to take a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, let us check whether he’ll have time to listen to your question. Hon Magwebu, the hon member wants to know whether you will take his question.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: He must talk to hon Mthimunye. I asked him to give me two minutes. I have five and I am not taking a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): He is not ready. Okay, continue.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Manzini, the select committee went to Mpumalanga. I will not be condescending. I respect the office you hold and the South Africans despite the tone you have used in this House. Members of Parliament cannot lie. When they were there they were working next to the road. The road was not used. Through you, Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Magwebu, your time.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: We stand by the fact that it is incorrect.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Magwebu, no, no, no!

Mr L V MAGWEBU: I thank you, Chairperson. [Ndiyabulela.][Time expired.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Magwebu, listen to me. Please do not leave. I have asked for advice. The hon President was not found guilty of corruption. So, you are out of order and your time has expired. [Interjections.]

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, corrupt relationships! There is a decided case; Schabier Schaik case. I stand by what I said, Chairperson. I will not withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, I was just giving you a ruling. I did not say withdraw but I was ruling on the matter. Hon Mokwele, the hon member is no longer on the podium. [Applause.] Hon Mthimunye, please take your seat. Hon Mokwele, why are you standing, Mme?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I just want to make it clear to the House that the relationship that Mr Zuma had ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... with his personal ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, you know that you cannot debate from the floor. You are out of order! Please take your seat!

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, if hon Mokwele has got a crush on me, thanks you very much, I am happily married. [Laughter.]

MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Mthimunye, o a rumulana, o a tseba?

AN HON MEMBER: He must withdraw those words.

MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO(Moh M C Dikgale): Ee, mohl Mthimunye, o a rumulana. Mohl Mokwele? Aowa, dula fase, Mthimunye. Dula fase, Mthimunye. Dula fase.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, I have a point of order. On a very serious note, I am a married woman to Mr Frans Mabote Mokwele. I will never be attracted to him, I will never.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon Mthimunye, hon Mokwele made it clear that she is a woman for another husband. Please withdraw your words.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: I withdraw, hon House Chair. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, are you listening? Thank you very much. He has withdrawn.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: And I sincerely apologise.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: In the early 1980s when I was initiated in the underground cells of the ANC under what was then called the Peter Nchabeleng Unit, I was taught one very important thing around patriotism, which adds to a character of a leader. He defines patriotism as ―As a leader, who loves, defends and works for his country‖ and later in my political life I then read material that was developed by one important and famous writer, Gramsci, and again came across this particular word, patriotism. And he defines it exactly the same as Comrade Parapara [Mothupi] of the Peter Nchabeleng Unit would have defined it. I have listened carefully to many speakers this afternoon. There is one speaker I want to deliberately single out from the opposition benches, hon Grant. I think he is an honest leader who characterises a leader of the future in this country even if he sits in the opposition benches.

[Interjections.] Then hon Faber made reference to a number of allegations and presented them as though they were facts and that stops short of being a leader that Gramsci made reference to. Can I refer to a letter in response to these allegations and the Gupta Leaks that are made day in and day out? This letter was published in the Mail and Guardian of 25 May 2009 and this was a letter written, authored by madam hon Helen Zille. I want to read it for the record. It says:

Mr Atul Gupta, Managing Director, Sahara Computers (Pty) Ltd; Dear Mr Gupta, thank you so much for your generous donation to the Democratic Alliance. [Interjections.] Your financial contribution helped us to achieve our three key objectives in the recent election: keeping the ANC below a two-thirds majority; significantly consolidating our position as the official opposition in Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye, please hold it there, take your seat. Hon Faber, why are you on your feet? [Interjections.] Order! Hon Mokwele, an hon member is on the floor.

Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, I have a point of order. I would like to know if this hon member would take a question from me since he is making allegations.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Are you ready to take hon Faber’s question?

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Can I conclude the letter? I will take the question.

Mr W F FABER: I want you to take it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, he is not yet ready.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: And this is the letter that was written by hon Zille after R200 000 was received from the Gupta family to the DA. [Interjections.] And I continue therefore:

Our support increased dramatically from the 2004 election ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Order! Hon Mthimunye, before you continue sir take your seat.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, on a point of order: If the ANC will also declare all their donations.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, you are out of order. You know you are debating from the floor. You can not do that.


... Then, we won 12,37% of the national vote or ... nearly 3 million votes. This means that the DA grew by 34%. You helped us to achieve this historic milestone. Thank you for your support. Thank you for standing up for strong opposition and for a positive alternative.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye! Hon Mthimunye, hon Essack is standing, why hon Essack?

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I have a point of order. Budget Vote No 35 Transport ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon ... [Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: Can I just check with you Chairperson ...


... lomfana ... [Ubuwelewele.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Dlamini


Mnu F ESSACK: ... ukhuluma ngeSabelo seSabelomali [Budget Vote] manje [now] noma sesiyaphikisana [debate] yini?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Dlamini, please behave

... [Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: Will this distinguished speaker take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack! Hon Essack that is not a point of order, you are totally out of order. Please take your seat.

Mr F ESSACK: But it is Budget Vote No 35 ...


... ngiyakucela. [Ubuwelewele.] Ngifuna ukumbuza umbuzo. [Ubuwelewele.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack! Hon Essack, take your seat. Hon Essack, do you want to go out?

Mr F ESSACK: I want to ask him a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Do you want to leave the House?

Mr F ESSACK: Just now. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please take your seat. Take your seat hon Essack.

Mr F ESSACK: But you know I will sit down ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, take your seat. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Hon Nyambi, let me recognise the hon member first, I will come to you.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for hon Essack to refer to the hon member like
―umfana‖ ... [Interjections.] ―lomfana‖.[this boy]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, thank you very much hon Motlashuping. It is not parliamentary. Can I request the hon Essack to stand up and withdraw because he is not ―umfana‖ [boy] He is the hon Mthimunye.


Mnu F ESSACK: Mzala wami, ngiyahoxisa [withdraw] ngokujulile. [seriously]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank you very much.


Mnu S G MTHIMUNYE: Hayi ngiyazibongela wemzala. [Uhleko.]


And it continues to say:

Thank you for contributing to the real change in South Africa.

Yours sincerely, Helen Zille, leader of the Democratic Alliance.

Now this was a letter written and signed by the then leader of the DA to Atul Gupta of the Guptas. [Interjections.] And continue shouting ―captured‖ ―captured‖ and we will continue delivering and delivering. [Interjections.] At the ANC’s 53rd National Conference in Mangaung in 2012, it was resolved that we are boldly entering the second phase of the transition from apartheid colonialism to a national democratic society. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye! Hon Mthimunye! Hon Mthimunye, listen to the Chair. Hon Mthimunye, no, you can not do that. Hon Chabangu, why are you standing?

Mr M M CHABANGU: Hon House Chairperson, I have a point of order. I would like to know if the member will take a question before we had discussed before ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): But earlier on he said he was not ready. Are you ready now, hon Mthimunye?

Mr M M CHABANGU: No, do not lead him.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Can I finish my speech, Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): He is not ready. He is not ready, take your seat.

Mr M M CHABANGU: But you are leading him.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, I am leading. It is what I am doing.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: So this phase will be characterised by decisive action to effect economic transformation and democratisation project consolidation, critical both to improve the quality of life of all South Africans and to promote nation-building and social cohesion.
The 53rd Conference of the ANC also resolved to give effect to the National Development Plan, NDP, the New Growth Path and the Industrial Policy Action Plan with the aim of stimulating growth, employment and the reindustrialisation of the South African economy, and this was mindful of the 4th industrial revolution.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order! Hon members! Hon Mokwele, you ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to listen and this hon member mama Cathy is making noise. Please, can you tell her shut up? [Interjections.] Please, I want to listen to my hon George Mthimunye.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I know you are a leader ma, can you please just be truthful for once because you, hon Mathevula and the hon Dlamini, are doing the same thing. You are making ... you are taking ... no you cannot and you are drowning the speaker. Please, three ladies, behave hon members.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: And if she can cut the ―my‖ in the beginning of

―my hon George Mthimunye‖ because I am not hers, I belong to another woman. [Laughter.] So, transport plays a significant role in the social and economic development of any country ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye! Hon Mthimunye, please take your seat.

Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, on a question of clarity: With due respect to the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is the point of clarity?

Mr F ESSACK: Is this the same George Mthimunye that was charged in October last year for corruption? [Laughter.] That is what it says on Fin24, George Mthimunye was charged with corruption of R26 000.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, please do not confuse us. Do not confuse the country and do not confuse the House.

Mr F ESSACK: Just to check is this George Mthimunye the same man? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You know if ever you want to ask a question you will seek clarity first.

Mr F ESSACK: I am seeking clarity.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, no, take your seat. [Interjections.] You were supposed to ask if ever he is ready to take the question.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: And I am not that George Mthimunye.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): And you did not.

AN HON MEMBER: You are! [Interjections.]

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: ... and the government has recognised transport as one of the five main priority areas for socioeconomic development.
The effectiveness of the role played by transport is to a large extent dictated by the soundness of transport policy and the strategies utilised in implementing the policy. The implementation of the Road Accident Benefit Scheme policy will gain momentum in the short to medium term, thus paving the way for the transformation of the Road Accident Fund, RAF. It is through RABS that the department will reach higher volumes of victims of road accidents in a shorter time, with a policy shift from a fault-based compensation system to a no fault basis. The RAF reaffirmed its commitment to being the country’s social security safety net that covers and consoles those tragically maimed on South African roads.

The Road Accident Fund reaffirmed its commitment to being the country’s social security safety net that covers and consoles those tragically maimed on South African roads. RAF continues to deliver services to many road users in a tough operating climate, where legalistic hurdles have not hindered operational achievements. The

excellent performance of RAF justifies our call for the implementation of the no-fault need-based scheme. The RABS performance is indicative of our belief that we can do without middlemen when rendering services and support to victims of car crashes when they need help and this is about rooting out the middlemen in the unscrupulous law firms that have been robbing our people through the RAF claims. In the improvement of public transport system, the Airports Company South Africa’s network has become vital centres and catalysts for economic growth. And furthermore, they are all becoming vital centres and catalysts for economic growth as well as access hubs for the rest of the world. They are being transformed into multifaceted, world-class, global gateways for travel, trade and commerce. As a result, business opportunities abound, particularly in property, retail and advertising. The safety, security, and quality of services of some modes of transport are currently unacceptable hon Minister we must say. The government is however committed to a concentrated and integrated effort to bring them into line with international best practices. Therefore, particular attention must be paid to road safety.

As part of the infrastructure programme, a significant amount of financial resources has been allocated to the Passenger Rail Agency

of South Africa, Prasa, to acquire new rolling stock over a period of 10 years. The current rolling stock is more than 50 years old, and it is no longer viable to meet current and future socioeconomic realities of achieving change in South Africa. The acquisition of the new rolling stock will also include the upgrade of the current rail infrastructure, including stations in our main cities and towns. The Moloto Road is notoriously known as the road of death and government is planning to transform it into a road of hope.

And therefore, the projects that come with this Moloto Road development, hon Minister, I think it is also important on your part as a member of the economic cluster of Minister that we explore the possibility at looking at integrating this project and also think around the possibility of establishing the special economic zone on or along the corridor if possible so that we begin to, in a true sense, ignite development that will curtail the problem of people travelling between Gauteng and Mpumalanga. As the ANC, we support this Budget Vote. We do so because ...


... thina ku-ANC asinawo umona futhi asinayo inzondo. Yingakho silweseka [support] lesi Sabelo seSabelomali. [Budget Vote] Siyabonga Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, can they reset time here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, immediately you start then it will be.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Without added minute number five not 454.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I don’t know, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Okay, no, as the ANC government, we believe in radical socioeconomic transformation to make sure that blacks are brought into the mainstream of aviation industry, rail industry, road construction and ocean economy.

Hon Mthimunye has clarified the issue raised by hon Mathebula of moving from Road Accident Fund, Raf, to Road Accident Benefit Scheme, Rabs, as a scheme which is pro-poor.

Hon Manzini has gone at length to clarify the scholar Transport Policy. Hon Khawula, that I have known for the past 20 years when we were in the Youth Leagues of IFP and the ANC, good to see you. Not all traffic police are corrupt. There are many traffic officers who are working very hard on their road. So, lets not all paint all of

them with the same paint. I also thank you for saying that the roads safety is a responsibility for all of us.

Hon Grant, you spoke very well. It’s like you are in a wrong party. [Laughter.] I don’t know whether you will have a job when you leave here. You raise the issue of minibus operators, the matter that we are attending to, that as you have seen minibus operators closing the N1 and other roads in Gauteng, they are charged exorbitantly in terms of interest rates, almost 28%. It’s a matter that we are looking at probably approaching even the Development Finance Institutions, DFIs, to assist them because with the refinancing of one taxi at the end the money they repay will have bought extra two taxis. So, through the new system of subsidisation, we are looking at assisting them.

The Moloto Corridor as emphasise by hon Masemola, there will be a train coming to Sekhukhune, Moloto and Gauteng. We are reviewing the Toll Policy in particular the funding model. The current funding model resulted in the challenges that we have in Gauteng Freeways Improvement Plan, GFIP, in the main, and not all our toll operations are problematic.

State-Owned Enterprises, SOEs, not all SOEs have the same problems. I can give an example of SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, with the current review of its performance, it stands at 90%.
However, its sister SOE, Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, stand at 34% and could not even spend R7 billion out of R13,8 billion allocated for Capital Expenditure, Capex, last year. So, we must make sure that there would be consequent management for SOEs which are not doing what they are supposed to do in terms of their mandate.

Hon Faber, your input is welcome; however, if you think like your leader Helen Zille, who think along colonial pattern will continue to have problems we have in the Western Cape, transport system for poor blacks and transport system for the rich white which is as a result of what Zille always praises that colonialism should actually be glorified and you can see it here.

So, hon Grant, you have an albatross called Zille in this province. So, we can’t think like colonialist. We have a transport system which is efficient, productive and reliable. That’s what we are looking at. So, I like to thank everybody, members of the NCOP, the select committee, MECs, who are present here and officials for assisting us to put together this budget. Thanks very much, hon

Chair. We benefitted from this debate. Moving together, we can build a better South Africa. Thanks. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I think it is in order to take this opportunity and thank the hon Minister for availing himself for this debate. Thank you very much. We really appreciate. Hon members, I have an announcement to make. Those who are travelling with busses, the busses will be leaving at six o'clock.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:41.