Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 25 Aug 2017


No summary available.




The Council met at the Kaiser Sebothelo Sports Arena, Botshabelo, Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality, in the Free State province at 09:19.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice.




MOTLATSA MOPORESIDENTE: Mme Modulasetulo wa Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi, bahlomphehi kaofela bao e leng Maloko a Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi, batho ba heso ba Aforkia Borwa, le ba kopaneng mona, ke ikutlwa ke hlompilwe haholo hore ke fuwe monyetla ona wa ho tlo bua sebakeng sena.

Dilemo tse mashome a mabedi tse fetileng, re le batho ba Aforika Borwa, re kopane kaofela ha rona re tswa dibakeng tse fapaneng, re ile ra etsa setlamo sa hore naha ena ya rona e tswelle pele tlasa Molaotheo oo re ileng ra o ngola. Molaotheo ona wa Demokerasi re ile ra o bona e le Molaotheo o tla kgonang hore o etse maphelo a batho ba rona a be matle.
Molaotheo ona ke tokomane e phelang, eo ha re e sheba re fumanang hore ke yona e ka ntlafatsang maphelo a batho ba

heso. Ke tokomane e ileng ya ba teng kamora maima moo re neng re lwanela tokoloho ya rona. Ho ile ha hlokahala batho ba bangata mme ba bang ba bangata ba ile ba kena tjhakaneng, ba bang ba baleha naheng. Tokomane ena eo re e bitsang Molaotheo wa naha ya rona tlile ha boima.

Re tlamehile hore Molaotheo ona re dule re o tshwarela hodimo haholo ka hobane maphelo a rona re le baahi ba Aforika Borwa a laolwa ke oona.


From the terrible ruins of racial discrimination, from a history of ethnic division and a culture of gender oppression, we pledged in the Constitution to build a truly united, nonracial, nonsexist and, indeed, prosperous nation. We also pledged to use the capabilities of all our people and all the resources of our land for the benefit of the people on whose behalf all of us who are Members of Parliament serve. United in our diversity, we have sought to build an open, accountable democratic society that adheres to the rule of law while advancing social justice and expanding the frontiers of freedom.


Ke ka tlasa Molaotheo ona moo re ileng ra fuwa monyetla wa ho thea Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi. Molaotheo ona ke wona o ileng wa etsa hore Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi le ngolwe molaong wa hore le tla emela e seng feela diporofensi empa le tla emela ditokelo tsa batho ba heso. Nakong eo re neng re ngola Molaotheo, re itse Maloko a Palamente. . .


Ms N KONI: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I would like to know if the Deputy President would kindly take a question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I am not willing to take a question.


Ke ntse ke le puong ya ka mme nke ke ka nka dipotso ha ke beha puo ena.


Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I assume we are in a formal or normal sitting of this House, the

NCOP. The Rules allow us to ask a question. This is not a maiden speech by the Deputy President. He cannot say to us that he can’t take a question or that no one may interject.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order.

Ms T J MOKWELE: According to the Rules, if we want to ask him a question, he must take the question. [Interjections.] Don’t just ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Order! Order! That is not a valid point of order. Members are to remember that we are in a formal sitting of the NCOP. Yes, the Rules of the NCOP and the Rules of Debate apply. It is not, however, only about Taking Parliament to the People. It is also an opportunity for the Presidency to give their annual address to the NCOP. It is in that context that we must allow the Deputy President to put and then to debate whatever it is
he puts. Please proceed, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is this democratic Constitution that gave birth to the National Council of Provinces, two decades

ago. It determined that this National Council Of Provinces should give our people a meaningful say in the laws that would change their lives. It determined that the NCOP should reach out to communities with a view to understanding their needs and to address their concerns. By taking Parliament to the people, as we are doing now, the NCOP is giving effect to the constitutional responsibility that it bears.

In living the values of our Constitution, we have built enduring institutions to deepen our freedom, to promote accountability and to engender equality. Our two Houses of Parliament – the National Assembly and the NCOP – are vibrant institutions representing and defending the views and interests of all South Africans. Inspired by our Constitution, we have crafted for ourselves a vision of an activist People’s Parliament that takes seriously its responsibility to improve the quality of life of our people.

By drawing our attention to the injustices of the past, the drafters of our Constitution were aware of how governments can go astray. To prevent the abuse of power and the betrayal of hope, the authors of our Constitution ensured that the human

rights of each person must be guaranteed, honoured and protected.

With our long history of exploitation and dehumanisation, we adopted a Constitution that enshrines every individual’s right to dignity, freedom and equality. It is a Constitution that guarantees vulnerable workers their right to fair labour practices and to form and join a trade union. We are among the few countries in the world that have entrenched rights such as access to water, food, health care and social security. In producing the ultimate law, we were inspired by a Nelson Mandela who, in his inauguration speech, said:

Let there be justice for all. Let there be peace for all. Let there be work, bread, water and salt for all.

We have been hard at work to realise these rights. We have responded to our people’s needs with regard to housing, electricity, water, health care, education and, indeed, social security. We continue, as inspired by our Constitution, to advance the goal of quality universal health care through the implementation of national health insurance. We continue to

protect the right to education to make sure that children of the poor and working class have a better chance than their parents had to break the cycle of poverty and deprivation in their families.

However, as the NCOP’s visit to this area has confirmed, there is still much more that we need to do to meet people’s needs and fulfil our shared constitutional obligation. Having come here, as the NCOP, we can say that we have heard, for example, of the challenges in our health care system. We have also heard about infrastructure that is poorly maintained, of staff shortages, and of problems with the availability of medicine.

The Constitution is our nation’s instrument for improving the lives of our people. By recognising the wrongs of the past, it places an obligation on all South Africans to achieve socioeconomic transformation. The Constitution provides a framework to remedy the country’s persistent challenge of underdevelopment. It enjoins all of us to work together to end the legacy of unemployment, inequality, poverty and landlessness.

We were reminded this week of the scale of the challenge with the release by Statistics South Africa of the latest Poverty Trends in South Africa report. This report shows that more than half of South Africans live in poverty. We must be deeply concerned that children aged 17 and younger are disproportionately affected by poverty in our country. They are mainly African, female and, largely, from our rural areas.

While the report explores poverty, in general, it also offers a guide on where we need to focus our efforts when we implement interventions and programmes aimed at alleviating poverty. It makes clear a very stark truth: Education must be at the centre of our national fight against poverty. It shows that those South Africans with a little or with no education make up an overwhelming majority of those living below the poverty line. The report highlights the importance of creating an environment that is conducive to teaching and learning, one that is free of violence and intimidation.

While we are now in a better position than we were 10 years ago when it was estimated that close to two-thirds of our people were living below the poverty line, there is a danger

that, without decisive action, our progress may start to be reversed. Behind the poverty statistics are the individual stories of disillusioned young people who go to bed on an empty stomach.


Kamora tlaleho ena ya batho bao ba futsanehileng naheng ena ya rona, ho na le ditlaleho tse tshwenyang tsa batjha ba robalang ba sa ja. Ho na le ditlaleho tsa bomme ba hodisang bana ba ba hodisetsa tlaleng.


There are stories of bright, young people who have sought refuge in crime, drugs and alcohol abuse. There are also stories of the elderly and the infirm who live wretched lives without access to health care or social support.

These are the stories that must remind all of us, hon members, that our task is enormous, our work is critical and our freedom far from complete. Where there is despair, it is our responsibility to give our people hope. We need to do so not with fine words or lofty promises. We need to give people hope

through the work that we do in responding to their cries and improving their lives.


Re le Maloko a Palamente, mosebetsi wa rona ke ho etsa hore re se ke ra fa batho tshepo ka mantswe feela. Re tlamehile ho fa batho ba heso tshepo ka diketso tsa rona dinthong tse etswang ke mmuso wa rona.


The people we represent expect more from us than political bickering and brinkmanship. They demand that we tell no lies. They also demand that we do not hide our faults. They demand that we should be honest and they demand that we should be hard-working. They expect us to lead the fundamental transformation of our economy. They expect us to enact legislation and adopt budgets that will contribute to economic growth and social transformation.

When we, as public representatives, scrutinise the programmes and performance of government departments, we need to assess the impact they have on reducing poverty amongst our people.

Policies that are not working need to be changed. Public representatives who don’t serve the interests of the people should be removed.

We have to act, starting now, to reaffirm their trust in the promise of freedom and democracy. We have to unite South Africans around a shared vision of a society that is fundamentally different and everyone must make his or her contribution. Everyone must have a sense that they have a stake in the future of our country.

To achieve a just society, South African children should grow up in schools knowing the values of their Constitution. More than that, they should grow up experiencing the Constitution as an instrument of development and opportunity.

We must not merely respect the Constitution. We should be South Africans who live the Constitution and who are guided by its values. Only when we live it and invest in its values shall we realise the constitutional promise of a better life for all our people.

This is the contract that we signed in 1994 when we ushered democracy into our country. This is the contract that we should ensure our country lives by. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, Premier of the Free State - Premier Magashule, speakers of the Free State, speaker of the Eastern Cape, members of the Provincial Executive, members of the NCOP, members of the other provincial legislatures who have gracefully joined us, Mayors and Councillors.

We thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak, meet, deliberate and go around the Free State inspecting institutions and facilities of health. The Constitution says that the NCOP is a platform for provincial interest at a national level. It says that the NCOP represents the provinces and we must read that as saying that the NCOP represents the people who live in all provinces. It says that Parliament must ensure public participation to ensure a truly educated participatory democratic South Africa. Now the Constitution read simply might mean to some of us that provinces has a

third bite at putting members at a national Parliament. We put them through province to province – province to national and the nationalist and into the NCOP. But if one really wants to read the Constitution deeply, it actually says that those members that come from your provinces hon members are the representatives and therefore the NCOP is equal to the House of Representatives.

In other words, our responsibilities are not just that of guarding party political or provincial interest – it is that of truly following up on the issues which are intergovernmental because we are the only House that represent all spheres and Arms. We therefore want to say that we take this responsibility as mediators of intergovernmental relations - as educators of the public to make sure that participatory democracy happens – as overseers on behalf of our people very serious.

Taking Parliament to the People was started in 2002 so this is our 15th year. We then decided to have a new approach and that is why last year when we went to the Eastern Cape, we focused on education and that is why this year we focused on health.

Because in our research we found that in the Free State the issues of health needed attention. And you cannot therefore close your eyes as public representatives to the challenges that face the people on the ground.

So we came and we went to Xariep – I think the Deputy President got the report – he has spoken about the report. Issues of understaffing, facilities and some of the facilities which started as the old four roomed houses which apartheid gave us and were then converted to clinics but which we for some reason forgot to upgrade or to equip properly. Issues of water in Xariep affected not only the health facilities but also the schools - unemployment rate at 60% or 66%, the inability of people to pay for rates or inability of the municipality to pay for water and therefore for the local government in Xariep to be able to deliver on the promise that the government has made to ordinary people on basic water and electricity supply.

The issues of young people were very sharply brought up – they finished matric and passed nicely but no job or training opportunities and now they are sitting there and crime takes

over. Deputy President we arrived on Sunday and we have been all over and we were warmly received – we must say. We have spent the whole week as the NCOP and not sitting on these benches – some of us slept here.         But we were visiting all the sites and at the same time running the public hearings.

The public hearing which started on Monday until yesterday actually confirmed that the issues of Xariep are the same issues as Bloemfontein, Thaba Nchu - Botshabelo. We learned here about shortage of staff which actually exacerbate bad attitude of the nurses towards the patients. We have heard of people queuing from 5am and leaving at 16:00 untreated and unseen. We have heard from people with disabilities and the problems they encounter especially the deaf – who have no one to interpret for them and therefore gets misdiagnosed – who are given wrong medication and who sometimes simply gets ignored.

We do know that Parliament is ready Deputy President to accept and adopt sign language as the 12th official language of South Africa - I hope [ekare] we can hurry up and do that [Applause.] because the plight of deaf people in South Africa

can longer be stomached. We have also seen that too many people in this province use wheel chairs. We have heard Mr Magashule, especially from the people from Rocklands that the roads are not well made – they are very rocky. [Applause.] Now if you are on the wheel chair it means the wheel chair breaks sooner.

We have also heard that the hospitals and the clinics no longer have people who used to help repair them. And therefore we want to say that yes we are very happy – we saw that starting with the Minister of Social development, the MECs we have been giving out wheelchairs but they are not enough because some people need specialised ones. What we need to do is look at ways which will create work whilst we better the lives of the people. I do know that the Minister of Water and Sanitation says that paving the roads actually interferes with their water tables and infrastructure but we need to find a way of ensuring that grannies [bokoko] are better cared for.
We have seen our grandmothers and grandfathers in this hall Deputy President begging – tears flowing ...


... Re kopa thuso. Thuso ena e koptjwang ke batho ba baholo



... relates to two things, one – those that we have given RDPs and they don’t have a way at all to maintain and to fix – How do we help them? The others are those who occupied houses since 1968 where the water is now seeping through the floors, damaging the walls and they do not have the way at all to fix. So we need to start thinking very careful about maintenance as South Africans – maintenance of state institution – maintenance of the house and institutions that we are putting at the disposable of our people. Deputy President, we spoke about unemployment with the youth and the challenges that they face.

We also heard of the public saying they need to get more attention as far as the banking sector is concerned. They want business opportunities and we think that the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA when it was here addressed some of the concerns but we have encouraged them to come back and have sectoral engagement with young people and business people. But

we also know that the NYDAs’ problem is the legislation which we rushed through to Parliament which disables the provinces to have the interactions and to work with the NYDA as we used to do with Umsobomvu. So it will be good for Parliament to reconsider amendments to the NYDA legislation as quickly as possible to enable the structure to function.

Deputy President, we have heard about the cries of grandmothers who are looking after orphans – orphans who sometimes do not have papers. We have heard of fathers who have abandoned children and refuse to even help facilitate them to get certificates so that they can access grants. We have heard about scholar transport especially for young children who are still in lower primary schools – who have to walk up to 12km to school. We have heard about people who use government facilities to frustrate other citizens. We have heard complains about the attitude of our staff. We want to say that we have also been interested in patient transportation since Xariep. We are happy Premier and Mr Kompela that the contract is coming to an end. But we also want to say that maybe it is time Deputy President that there are concurrent responsibilities between the national Minister

and the province that we need to relook because sometimes where there is concurrence in health and education things fall between the cracks because sometimes a legislature doesn’t know whether to hold the MEC accountable – Parliament does not know whether to hold the Minister accountable. So we need to come back and streamline these responsibilities so that we hold the person responsible accountable.

Where there is concurrence we have noticed that there is a lot of things that fall between the cracks. We are of course encouraging the municipality to go back to taking serious note of the need for more RDPs to be built. We are encouraging that fraud of the RDPs must be stopped. We want to say that we have heard what the people are saying here – we have seen the tears
– we have heard the appeals. But what is important is that we have also heard from Municipal Managers, Councillors, MECs, Minister, we have heard what they have said – the commitments they have made on this podium. We are taking it very seriously and we are going to follow up on all commitments.


[Ke batla ke re] I want to say that members of the executive must never make commitments in front of the NCOP willy-nilly because we will follow you up. We will haunt you – you will deliver on those, especially if you have made them in public. [Applause.] We will write to you every week until you deliver because ours as the NCOP is not to carry favours – ours is to protect the people we were sent to the NCOP to represent.
Therefore in representing those people we do not want make friends and we do not want to make enemies – we want to represent our people as ably as we can. That brings us to the need for the responses to come back on time hon Premier through you leader of government business, the Ministers who have made commitments because come 2018, we will come back ...


... re tlo bua le matshwele ana hape.


And we will tick every commitment, every complaint that we have received. We will say this was done – this was not done – why was this not done? How was this done? We ourselves will

come back and say you say you have delivered but we think what you have delivered Kompela is substandard because it is not going to last.


Kahoo re a kopa hle ka 2018, ha re kgutla ...


... we must begin to see changes. We are not very happy Deputy President about the state of the sewage and the seepage of sewage in the streets, in the household and people’s stands.


Letona la Metsi le Dikgwerekgwere le itse, ba kopantse matsoho.


They have availed two honeysuckers for Bloemfontein. She then threw a poser to the province and said you are supposed to maintain and ensure that those things work. So we want to encourage Bloemfontein to service the honeysuckers – make sure

that there is no sewage that is seeping throughout the street and the households. Thank you. [Re a leboga.]

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I just advice members who are on the speakers list that at a particular time when you realise that the speaker is about to conclude – there is a chair that has been set aside for members to just sit on so that we avoid that commotion.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, in this debate, where Parliament has come to the Free State, I can tell you hair- raising stories of a province where people are suffering. I can tell you a story of a province where our young people cannot find work. The Free State, along with the Eastern Cape, shares the spot with the highest unemployment rate in the country, at 34,4%. I can tell you a story of a province which has been bought by the Gupta family, where R33 million was looted from the Free State fiscus to pay for the infamous Gupta wedding at the Lost City. I can tell you a story of a province where the MEC for Social Development had the nerve to blame the way young women dress for falling victim to sexual violence and abuse and not the criminal scum who carry out

such violence. I can tell you a story of a province where local municipalities are bankrupt, unable to pay water boards and Eskom, where projects are left incomplete due to incompetent and corrupt management, where mayors, municipal managers, MMs, and chief financial officers, CFOs, get redeployed to other positions under clouds of suspicion and corruption whilst tens of thousands of people still don't have access to clean water, adequate sanitation, safe communities or title deeds to the properties they live in. I can tell you a story of a province that was supposed to honour Ma Winnie Mandela by converting her house at Brandfort into a museum, but the ANC made sure that even that money disappeared. This goes a long way to show how little respect the Magashule administration has for the Free State's heritage. I can along with my collegues from all parties in the NCOP...[Interjections.]

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Deputy Chair, I rise on a point of order. Members of the House should be appropriately addressed as hon. The speaker has just addressed the Premier of the Free State as Magashule without using the word hon or Mr. Secondly, I am

not sure if the speaker on the podium is relevant to the issues being debated today because our focus is on health.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I make a ruling on the point of order that you have raised. Yes, it is, and that point is carried. May we address each other with the greatest respect by referring to each other as hon members. Thank you very much. I am just making a ruling on that matter. You may continue with the debate.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: If the member listened he would have heard that I referred that through his administration and I did not address him.

I can, along with my colleagues from all parties in the NCOP tell you a story of a province where people have died in state hospitals because of the shocking state of many of the medical facilities here. This is a testimony that the rot has come over many years under the selfish, arrogant and poor leadership of Premier Ace Magashule. I can tell you a story of a province that is economically stagnant. Where the provincial government promises economic development and growth yet for

more than a decade these promises remain unfulfilled. I can tell you a story of a province where all of these problems get blamed on the past rather than saying, yes, we need to redress the injustices of the past, but these are the reasons why over the last 10 years under the corrupt and poor governance of the ANC, your lives have not become better.

Hon Chairperson, but I will, when I tell you this horrific story, only be a messenger of the people. This week you, and I, and all Members of Parliament, MPs, gathered here have had the opportunity to hear directly from the people of the misery they find themselves in. The ANC government can deny what the opposition says, they can call the free media fake news, but they cannot dispute what the people have said here over the last week. The stories of misery and suffering told here by ordinary Free Staters will fall on ANC deaf ears.

We have heard you will be the message of Premier Magashule and every ANC member on this stage today. My message is that we, the DA, have told this government about every problem which you have raised this week and they ignored us, just as they ignore the ordinary people of the Free State. Premier

Magashule has listened for the last eight years and hundreds and thousands still do not have work, many still do not have a title deed and many more still do not have the dignity that was promised to them with freedom in 1994.

Deputy Chairperson, I do not think there has been a member with a clear conscience who has not been touched by the horrific stories we heard this week. I hear them every day as I work in my constituency in this province. And yet, we expose the massive corruption of the ANC in this province day after day. How can you say you care about people when you steal from them? We have heard from the Deputy President how the national government of President Zuma, of which he is a part, will better your life. Has your life become better over the last eight years under their leadership? No, in fact, life for ordinary South Africans, and especially the Free Staters, has become worse.

The topic of this debate relates to our Constitution. It relates directly to the freedom and the dignity of our people. When I went to study law - like you Mr Deputy President — here at the University of the Free State where your friend Roelf

Meyer was the student representative council, SRC, president, your work inspired us and I gained even more respectyou’re your contribution that you have made to the establishment of our Constitution. In two weeks ago, I sat in the gallery of the National Assembly and I watched how the Deputy President Ramaphosa, one of the main architects of our Constitution along with the late Dene Smuts, defended with his vote Mr Jacob Zuma, who has defiled our Constitution.

The Constitution is our best shield against a corrupt government. President Zuma along with all his ANC cadres in government has taken that shield away from you and Mr Ramaphosa, who was key in crafting that shield, did nothing to prevent it. In fact, the man who I admired as Mr Ramaphosa, a pioneer of our Constitution, has sat in the very government that has been found by the Public Protector and the courts to have violated it. He has sat there quietly and comfortably as second in command and defended Mr Jacob Zuma's actions against the state and the ordinary citizens of this country. Why? How could he do that? Do not tell me it is politics. Because when people go hungry and our precious democracy, which is our only hope for a better life, is at stake and being torn apart, it

is no longer a matter of politics. It is a matter of principle.

Every ANC Minister, every ANC MEC and every ANC mayor that you see here today form part of Zuma's government, an ANC government that has sold your country to the Guptas while you remain jobless and destitute. The state of public health in the Free State is terrible. But the state of health of us as a country is 10 times worse. Only we, as ordinary South Africans, can fix it. But how? We can do it by saying enough is enough. The ANC government of President Zuma has done nothing positive over the last eight years that the people have given them. We deserve a better life, not only people who promise us a better life for all. We cannot eat promises.

The truth is that the Deputy President Ramaphosa cannot save his legacy, or that of the ANC, but together we can save our country. Now is the time for us, all of us, who want a better country, to stand together against the corrupt ANC government. Let us join hands as we move together towards the Union Buildings. Let us bring the change that is needed to restore the promise of freedom. Where the DA governs, we deliver for

all. Let us together bring this good governance to the Free State and every corner of South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr F D XASA (EASTERN CAPE): Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Thandi Modise, the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, hon Ramaphosa, the Premier of the Province of the free State, hon Magashule, the other hon members and the protocol observed, on behalf of the Eastern cape province, we appreciate the opportunity to be part of this important engagement.

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa is now 20 years since its commencement on 4 February 1997. It is a guide to action. The Constitution calls upon us to heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on the democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.

We are called upon to improve the quality of life of all the citizens, free the potential of each person and build a united, democratic South Africa. Guided by the Freedom Charter

and the Constitution, we are rebuilding our country after 300 years of destruction. After many years of work, guided by the Reconstruction and Development Programme RDP, we had to agree on critical priorities in 2007 as the ANC.

We said that we want a learning nation, we are hard at work to realise that; we said that we want a healthy nation, we are hard at work to realise that; we said that we wanted an economy that is growing and creating jobs, we are hard at work to realise that; we equally said that we want a free-crime society and also a society which is free of corruption, we are hard at work to realise that.

The good progress has been made, but there are still challenges that require the attention of all of us. The rural and township communities who constitute the majority of the people who are here, expect the delivery of quality basic services from us. The picture below reflects what is happening in the Eastern Cape where I come from and equally so, what might be happening in the Free State, where we are, is based on the interactions that were happening here yesterday, starting from Monday.

The delivery of water by the end of 2015-16 was at 85% and by end of the first quarter of 2017-18 was at 88% The delivery of sanitation by end of 2015-16 was at 77% and by end of the first quarter of 2017-18 was at 79% The delivery of electricity by end of 2015-16 was at 77% and by the end of the first quarter of 2017-18 was at 81%. We are soon going to realise universal access to these basic services that I have mentioned.

We are building quality schools and we are building hospitals and clinics. All I’m saying is that what I’m talking about should apply to all the provinces.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am rising on a point of order, Chair!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Xasa, can you take your seat? Can I hear the point of order?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, the speaker on the podium is misleading South Africa. There is no government in the Eastern Cape!
There’s nothing! There’s nothing in the Eastern Cape! Stop misleading the South Africans!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, your point of order is not carried. Can you continue with the debate, hon member!

Mr F D XASA: Indeed, South Africa is a construction site. The issues that I have been raising here are what is happening, and I am sure that the people gathered here are our witnesses. [Applause.] There seems to be convergence between what the people want and what the ANC has prioritised. The community members are all here in their numbers to demand action from the ANC. [Applause.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you take a seat! On what point are you rising, hon member?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Again, I am saying that the speaker is misleading the South Africans. Our government is a multiparty government. When it suits the ANC and when the things are good, they say that it is the effort of their government. This is a multiparty government. It is not true that these people

here are requesting an action from the “African National Criminals.” They are requesting assistance from the government.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you take your seat, please! Can you take your seat! Hon members, i think that we need to make this one very clear. There is a point of order and a point of debate. You cannot engage with the speaker when the speaker is on the platform. If you want to raise an issue as a point of order, you need to identify what your point of order is, because what the member did now is to engage with the member. Therefore, I rule that out of order.

Ms N KONI: I am rising on a point of order, Chair!



Moh N KONI: Ke kopa gore o re tlhalosetse gore a o re raya o re fa sebui mo podiamong se re baya bobi mo matlhong jaaka Maaforika Borwa re se ka emelela ka maoto gonne Rre fale, fa e

sale a simolola ngangisano ya gagwe a baya bobi mo matlhong a Maaforika Borwa.


Ms N KONI: No, allow me to finish!


Ms N KONI: I am not! No, I’m addressing you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you take your seat!

Ms N KONI: No, Chair! Allow me to finish, then you’ll address me!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, can you take your seat!

Ms N KONI: You cannot conclude on my behalf!


Ms N KONI: What you’re doing now is that you are concluding my point of order on my behalf!


Ms N KONI: I asked to stand on a point of order and you have recognised me. Now you want to speak on my behalf.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, can you take your seat! Hon members, I am not going to allow any member who wants to engage with a member at the podium. I have said that, if you have a point of order, your point of order must be clear. Can you continue hon Xasa!

Ms T J MOKWELE: But Chair, in terms of the rules ... [Interjections.] It is allowed for a member to call a member on a podium into order?


Ke melao e lo re e beetseng gore re phele ka yona mo Ntlong.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright! Thank you very much!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, allow me.


Se ntsene ganong!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let me explain something to you!

Ms T J MOKWELE: No, Chair! Allow me to speak and finish my point of order! You know, I missed you when you were not in the house, but what you are doing ... [Interjections.]


Ms T J MOKWELE: Allow me to speak!


Ms T J MOKWELE: No, but I’m still speaking, Chair!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat! Can I address you! Can I address you, hon Mokwele! [Interjections.] No, no no! I wish to address hon Mokwele. There is nothing wrong and I agree with you. The rules do make a provision for a member to call a member to order, but you do that through the chair. The Chair will then make a ruling weather if your order is a standing order or not. In this instance, what you have done is that, you have engaged with the member that is standing on a podium debating. That is why I ruled it out of order and allowed the member to proceed. Can you proceed hon Xasa!

Ms T J MOKWELE: But Chair, can you allow me to speak with due respect!

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: I am standing on a point of order, Chairperson!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m not going to debate with you!

Ms T J MOKWELE: I know, Chair!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you therefore take your seat!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Can you allow me to speak with due respect, Chair! May I address you with due respect?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no! Can you take your seat! There’s appoint of order that has been raised there. May I recognise the speaker with a point of order? [Interjections.] You’re engaging!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Can you recognise me after that point of order? I am requesting with due respect, Chair!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I recognise that point of order?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Can you also recognise me after that point of order, Chair! I am requesting!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat! Just take your seat! Members! Order! Order! Order!


Setšhaba, a re didimaleng! Ke rata go tlhalosa jaana gore Ntlo eno ke kopano ya semmuso ya Khansele ya Bosetšhaba ya Diporofense, ka jaalo, ga lo a tshwanela go tsaya karolo. Ke dume la gore lo filwe tshono ya go tsaya karolo mo gare ga beke. Gompieno ke baemedi ba lona ba ba ngangisanang, ka jaalo, ba tlogeleng ba ngangisane!


Can I take a point of order, hon Gaelher!

Mr L B GAELHER: Chairperson, are the members of the public supposed to take part in this debate because they are drowning us, especially from this side here? Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERRSON OF THE NCOP: I think that I’ve just addressed that. Hon Xasa can you continue with the debate!

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, this hon member here is shouting at me. She’s sitting here.


[Interjections.] No, no, no! Let me address the issue. Can I address the issue?


Batho ba setšhaba, fa e le gore ke nnete lo goeletsana le maloko, ke kopa gore lo tlogele. Ke a lo kopa!


Please allow the members to participate in the debate. Continue hon Xasa!

Mr F D XASA: I repeat that the community members are all here in their numbers to demand action from the ANC government.
After coming here from all the corners of the Republic of South Africa, this is an indication by all of us to say that we take the views of the members of the public who are here seriously. An action will have to be taken by all those who are deployed in the government by the ANC without fail.

We take the oversight function of the NCOP and the various legislatures seriously, unlike the official opposition, the DA

members from the Western Cape, who decided not to participate on this debate. Also from the Eastern Cape, the special delegate of the DA is not here, and we don’t know the reason. My implication is that they are not taking people seriously. [Applause.]

I have heard my colleague who was speaking before me, and I assume that he has no mandate from his political party because he is not here. He also comes from the Free State, but I’m also convinced that he doesn’t have a mandate from the Free State to speak in this podium as he has done. As the different provinces, we are taking seriously what was presented here by the National Chairperson of the NCOP.

The remedial action will have to be produced as a response to the oversight visit as well as issues raised by the communities in the last four days.

Our provinces have adopted a Service Delivery Models. In the context of the Eastern Cape, we have Masiphathisane and in the context of the Free State we have Operation Hlasela. respectively. The intension is to respond to the issues that

get raised by the communities in a coordinated and integrated fashion. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



Ke lo kgalemetse!

Ms N KONI: I am standing on a point of order, Chairperson!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the point of order?

Ms N KONI: I would suggest that the rented mobs be removed out of this House!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just take your seat! Just take your seat!

Ms N KONI: Okay!



Bagaetsho, ke lo kopile ka tsweetswee gore lo se tseye karolo mo dingangisanong tseno. Re a rata jaaka badiredi ba Khansele ya Diporofense gore lo tle go reetsa gore baeteledipele ba lona ba reng, le gore ba re bat la lo direla eng. Jaanong fa lo goeletsa, seno se dira o kare le lona lo baemedi ba ba tsayang karolo. Ke kopa gore lo se direng jaalo.

Ms N KONI: I was still on my point of order, Chair! Seeing that we have got our protection services here from the Parliament, I think that they should deal with the people that are behaving like the rented mobs. So, they must be removed from this House.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I not recognise that point of order. Can you continue hon Magashule!


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Motlatsi wa Modulasetulo, e re ke ise tlhompho ho Mohlomphehi Modulasetulo Thandie Modise, Motlatsi wa Mopresidente Ntate Ramaphosa, Balaodi ba Ntlo, Ditho tsa Makgotla a Phethahatso ho tswa

diporofenseng tse ding, ditho tsohle tsa NCOP, bahlomphehi le setjhaba sa Foreisetata haholoholo sa Mangaung. Molaodi wa Ntlo, ke thabela ho nka motsotso ona le ho ananela hore re thabetse ha NCOP e tlile mona, Motlatsi wa Mopresidente hobane ba ikutlwetse.

Mekgatlo ya dipolitiki e tseba ditabatabelo tsa batho ba Foreisetata. Batho ba mona Botshabelo, Thaba-Nchu, Bloemfontein le dibaka tse kang Dewertsdorp ba re hopotsa moo re tswang teng re le batho ba batsho. Ba re hopotsa hore nakong ya kgethollo motho e motsho o ne a sa tshwane le lekgowa.

Ke fela ka mora selemo sa 1994 ha mmuso o eteletsweng pele ke Mokgatlo wa ANC o nka matla, wa etsa hore batho ba batsho le makgowa ba tshwarwe ka mokgwa o tshwanang. [Mahofi.] Kahoo, kajeno lena ba re hopotsa hore dikliniking tsa rona nakong ya kgethollo motho e motsho o ne a sa arolelane sepetlele.
Dibethe tsa makgowa di ne di sa be nqa e le nngwe le tsa batho ba batsho.

Hoba re nke puso, re ahile dikliniki tse ngata-ngata mona porofenseng mme batho ba fumana le meriana. Ke kahoo meriana e felang Motlatsi wa Mopresidente hobane nakong ya hona jwale ya demokerasi batho ba rona ba fumana meriana mahala. Ntho ena e ne e sa etsahale kae kapa kae. Batho ba Botshabelo mona le Thaba-Nchu ba re hopotsa hore pele ho selemo sa 1994 ho ne ho na le mabatowa a puso tsa batho ba batsho [homelands]. Ke moo batho ba batsho ba neng ba beilwe teng. O a bona le moo ba dulang teng hore ho ntse ho na le bofuma le tlala; ho hlokeha mesebetsi.

Batho ba rona ba basweu ba e ananela, ba nka naha le moruo wa yona. Ba ile ba nka dimaene mme ba sebedisa bonkgono le bontatemoholo; ba re lahlela kwana MaXhosa, Basotho le Batswana, ba re arola. Re ile ra nka mmuso mme ra etsa bonnete ba hore kajeno re na le Afrika Borwa e hlokang kgethollo ya mmala.

Bonnete ke hore makgwowa a ile a re hlekefetsa ka nako e telele mme e ntse e le bona ba unang molemo. Ka Lebaka la ditjhelete tsa rona, moo ba dulang teng ho na le matlwana a

nang le metsi a tsamaisang dikgerekgwere ha rona re se na wona metseng ya rona. [Kenohanong.]

Tlhokeho ya mesebetsi ha se ntho e etsahetseng feela. Ngaka Verwoerd o ile a re o batla hore re se ke ra ba hopotsa ka kgethollo. O ile a re batho ba batsho ba se rutwe Dipalo le Mahlale/Saense. Ke kahoo re hlokang dingaka tsa batho ba batsho tse ngata mona Afrika Borwa. [Kenohanong.]

Ke batla ho hopotsa mohlomphehi wa Mokgatlo wa DA hore le kajeno lena ditho tsa batho ba batsho tsa DA mane Lejweleputswa, Welkom ba na le mohwanto hona jwale kgahlano le ditho tsa DA tsa makgowa. [Kenohanong.] Lebaka ke hobane Mokgatlo wa DA o sebedisa batho ba batsho. Ke nako ya hore rona batho ba batsho le mekgatlo e tshwanang le EFF re kopane mme re sebetse hantle ho ya pele. [Kenohanong.]

Mof T J MOKWELE: Tjhee! Hei, hoo! [Kenohanong.]

TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ke a tseba hore re ntse re buisana le Mokgatlo wa EFF mme o dumetse mona profenseng ya rona hore o tlo sebetsa le Mokgatlo wa ANC.





Mof T J MOKWELE: Dula fatshe!





Mof T J MOKWELE: Dula fatshe. Tjhe, ha re kopane le wena.

English: 10.10.14

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, huh-uh, we are not ... [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what point are you rising?

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order Chair: On the record, we as the EFF are not associating ourselves with the ANC led by

Ace Magashule. It won’t be correct. It can’t be. It can’t be. Huh-uh!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That’s not a point of order hon member. That’s not a point of order. I don’t recognise that point. Hon premier, can you continue?


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ke a leboha hobane kgaitsedi ya ka ke ile ka kopana le yena beseng mane le ba Mokgatlo wa EFF; re sebetsa mmoho. [Kenohanong.]


Ms T J MOKWELE: Huh-uh, on a point of order. Chair, on a point of order. Let me make this clear to the House.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, can I hear the point of order? Order, hon members! No, I want to hear you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Okay. I met ... What the premier is saying about me is not true. I met with him ...


... sefofaneng ke tswa Bloemfontein; ke tswa Ladybrand. Ke ile ka mmolella hore re tlo kopana le yena ka moferefere oo a o etsang porofenseng ena.


... nothing else. [Inaudible.] We have never met anywhere. Never. He must withdraw. He must withdraw.


[Interjections.] ... hon Mokwele, that’s a political statement.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Huh-uh, huh-uh! Hon Ace must withdraw. I met him and I told him about Mantsopa ... [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Hey, that’s not a point of order, wena!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Huh-uh, huh-uh! ... [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, no, no! Hon Mokwele, can I address you? What happened ... whether you met on a plane ...

Ms T J MOKWELE: I told you that you are going to do that.

An HON MEMBER: Hey, be disciplined, wena!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, may I address the House? May I address the House? Hon members, don’t make my life difficult. I was not there. I don’t know who is telling the truth or not.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Ximbi was there. Hon Ximbi was there. He can attest. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That’s not a point of order. Hon Magashule, can you continue with the debate?


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ke a leboha kgaitsedi ya ka. Ke tla hula polelo ya ka kgaitsedi ya ka hore re tswele pele.


Ms T J MOKWELE: I told you that you are going to do that. I told you. You are very good at manipulating.


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ke batla ho o tshepisa hore ditletlebo tsohle Molaodi wa Ntlo ...


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you allow the premier to continue with the debate? Can you allow the premier to continue with the debate?


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ke kopa ho hopotsa setjhaba sa Freisetata le Afrika Borwa hore pele ho selemo sa 1994 re ne re sa bolellwe hore ditjhelete di sebedisitswe jwang. Pele ho selemo sa 1994 ho ne ho se na

Mohlahlobi-Kakaretso wa Dibuka tsa Ditjhelete. Pele ho selemo sa 1994 batho ba batsho ba ne ba phela kwana le makgowa a itshehlile thejana. Ka mora selemo sa 1994 makgowa a otlwa ke hore motho e motsho a lekane le bona le kajeno lena. Bonkgono ba ne ba sa fumana tjhelete tsa penshene tse lekanang le tsa makgowa.

Ke batla ho hopotsa batho ba rona hore mona Foreisetata, Motlatsi wa Mopresidente, re na le bana ba 202 bao re ba isitseng naheng ya Cuba. Hona jwale tjena ba teng mona Foreisetata ho fihlela dibekeng tse pedi tse tlang. Selemong se tlang ka kgwedi ya Phupu ba tla be ba qetela dithuto tsa bona tsa bongaka kwana naheng ya Cuba. Ba tla kgutla ba tlo sebetsa dipetlele le dikliniking tsa rona mona.

Baithuti ba 114 ba ile naheng ya Russia ho ya ithutela bongaka. Ba fetang 500 ba batsho le ba basweu, ba ithutetse bongaka diyunibesithing tsa rona mona Afrika Borwa. Ke tshwere le tlaleho e bontshang hore haesale Mokgatlo wa DA o tletleba ka tlhokeho ya ditliniki, dingaka le baoki. Tlaleho ena e bontsha hore ho tloha ka selemo sa 2015 re hirile dingaka tse

kae; ra hira baoki ba bakae; mme ra hira dingaka tsa thekenoloji [medical technologists] tse kae.

Tlaleho ke ena. Selemong sa 2016 feela, Molaodi wa Ntlo, re hirile batho ba ka bang 1 001, dingaka, baoki le dingaka tsa thekenoloji hobane batho ba ne ba tletleba hore re hira ditlelereke feela, jj. Jwale ha re batla ditlelereke. Re se re na le batho ba batsho mme naheng ya Afrika Borwa hona jwale batho ba batsho ba se ba rutehile haholo ebile ba feta le makgowa. Ke yona ntho e utlwisang batho ba basweu bohloko.

Ke dumedisa le ho bolella setjhaba sa mona hore re itse lengolong la rona la Freedom Charter ka selemo sa 1955: “Batho ba tla busa.” Ke kahoo NCOP e leng teng mona ho tla mamela batho hobane batho ba ba le seabo maphelong a bona kajeno lena. Batho ba kgona ho tletleba ka mmuso ba sa natse hore ba bua hampe ka Letona kapa Mopresidente. Ke yona taba eo re e lwanetseng.

Ke batla ho tshepisa batho ba Foreisetata hore re a fumane le mangolo a di-CV a baoki a ka bang 30. Lenaneng la rona re na le baoki ba 281 mona porofenseng ba ntseng ba hloka mosebetsi.

Re tshepisa NCOP hore ha e kgutlela mona ka kgwedi ya Mphalane, re tlo bolaya diposo tse ding mafapheng a mang hore re kgone ho hira bana bana bao re fumaneng mangole a bona a di-CV. Bohle bao re fumaneng mangolo a bona ho tswa
Botshabelo, Thaba-Nchu le Qwaqwa, ha kgwedi ya Mphalane e fela Mme Thandie Modise, le tla fumana tlaleho ya hore tsohle tseo re di tshepisitseng batho le tse tla etsahala mmusong wa Mokgatlo wa ANC naha ka bophara, re tla di phethahatse. Ke nna wa pele ya dumelang hore ha re sa di phethahatse, jwaloka Tonakgolo ke tla bea meja fatshe lebitsong la ho hlompha setjhaba mona porofenseng. [Kenohanong.]

Ha ke qetela ke batla ho etsa mohlala mane Cornelia, Motlatsi wa Mopresidente, ho bontsha hore ha se ntho eo re ka e hlolang rona re le bang. Ha o ya tulong e bitswang Cornelia, Ntshwanatsatsi ho dula batho ba 11 000. Palong eo ho na le makgowa a 50. Makgoweng ao ba 46 ba fumana thuso ya Ditjhelete tsa mmuso [social grant]. Ke ba bane feela ba kgonang ho ba borapolasi. Ho na le diterata tse 108 mme diterateng tseo ho na le dikoloi tse 60. Ho na le matitjhere a 54 mme a 50 a tswa kantle.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon premier, let me recognise that point of order. Is it a point of order in any case?


Mr M M SHABANGU: Tonakgolo o re batho ba Cornelia ba phela ha monate. [Kenohanong.] Ke tswa moo. Kantoro ya Mokgatlo wa ANC e fatshe ha ke bua le wena tjena mme e tjhesitswe ke setjhaba se sa kgotsofallang puso.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member that was not a point of order. Can you continue hon premier?


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ha ke a re batho ba Cornelia ... Ke itse batho ba Cornelia nakong ya kgethollo ba ne ba sa sebetsa kaofela. Ha o ya Cornelia kajeno nka o hlalosetsa hore ntlong e le nngwe kapa efe kapa efe diterateng tseo tse 108, re entse bonnete ba hore moo leqheku le sa

fumaneng thuso ya tjhelete ya mmuso mme ha ho motho ya sebetsang setjhabeng sohle, ho na le batho ba CWB.

Ha re kenya batho mosebetsing, re ile moo ra re lapeng leo ho seng motho ya sebetsang, ho be le motho ya kenang mosebetsing ho EPWP. Re ile ra bulela batho bao dikarete tsa poloko bankeng ya ABSA hobane re ba fumane ba beilwe moo ke puso ya kgethollo.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon premier, can I just recognise a point of order.

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order Chair: You know, we know all the stories that hon Ace is talking about. Some of us were in Mantsopa Local Municipality. We were in Mantsopa. The workers ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... municipality.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, what is the point of order?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Workers in Mantsopa ...


...ga ba bone dituelo tsa bone. Fa ba duelwa, ba duelwa halofo ya dituelo tsa bone ka gonne masepala oo ga o tsamaisiwe sentle. E sa le o tsamaisiwa ke ratoropo wa ANC go tloga ka 2012.


So he cannot come here and tell us about apartheid history. We know that history, chief. We know it. Come up with your plan please. We know that history.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, can you take your seat please? That was not a point of order! Okay, fine. Hon premier, can you continue?

Ms N KONI: On a point of order Chairperson.


Moh N KONI: Ke kopa o kgaleme batho gore ba tlogele go phamola le go tsaya dimaekrofounu ka dikgoka mme ba bo ba goeletsa ba sa bue sentle. Ka gonne ke maloko a ANC ga o bue sepe, ke kopa o baakanye kgang eno.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just before hon premier

... I heard that microphone and I don’t know where it came from, and whether it is one of our official microphones.
Members of the public, please don’t do that. Don’t do that. Can you continue hon premier?

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE (Mr E S Magashule): That’s why in that town called Cornelia only seven people voted for the EFF. Seven.

Ms T J MOKWELE: We are building an organisation. For us those seven mean a lot.


The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE (Mr E S Magashule): Those people who voted for the EFF are members of the ANC today.

Ms N KONI: On a point of order, Chairperson.

Ms T J MOKWELE: We applaud those seven.

Ms N KONI: On a point of order. On a point of order.



Ms N KONI: Chairperson?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no, just take your seat. Let me address you.

Ms N KONI: Are you going to allow me afterwards?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let me address the House first.

Ms N KONI: Please note my point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will recognise your point. Hon members, I am now going to address the House on a very serious matter. As a member you are allowed to heckle. As a member you are allowed to raise a point of order but once you become disruptive and interfere with a speaker,

deliberately so, then you are deliberately out of order. Can we please avoid doing that? Because then it would mean that we will have to deal with that matter. We will have to deal with that matter. Can I hear your point of order hon member?

Ms N KONI: Since you posted a threat, let me reserve my point of order. I will raise it after I debate because I don’t want to leave the House.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, can you continue hon member?


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): E re ke qetelle ka ho re, batho bohle ba Foreisetata le Afrika Borwa, haholoholo diporofense tse kang Kapa Botjhabela, Kapa Leboya, Mpumalanga le Limpopo, di sa ntse di futsanehile. Bofutsana bona ha bo a tliswa ke rona. Rona re etsolla seo kgethollo e se entseng bathong ba rona ba batsho.

Re batla ho bolella batho ba rona, ba batsho le ba basweu, hore re tla sebetsa ka thata. Le nne le tletlebe hobane mona

porofenseng ha ho na dintwa. Batho ba kgona ho bua maikutlo a bona mme re le mmuso re a mamela. Ke kahoo re thabelang hore NCOP le mekgatlo kaofela, leha re fapana ka pono, re amohela tshebedisanommoho. Re batla hore ho batho ba rona ...


We will make sure that we deliver on our commitments.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon premier, can I just recognise the hon member? On what point are you rising?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Point of order Chairperson: I believe that the time allocated to the premier has long expired. He’s saying nothing anyway.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, that was not a point of order in any case. Hon member, just to satisfy you, I’ve got a clock here. The Table Staff is assisting me. As soon as you interject as you are interjecting then that clock is stopped. That clock is stopped. Please don’t preside by default. Don’t preside by default. Hon premier, can you continue?


TONAKGOLO YA FOREISETATA (Mr E S Magashule): Ke se ke lebohile mme ke batla ho hlalosetsa setho se hlomphehang hore mohla o batlang ho ba Molaodi wa Ntlo o kenele Mokgatlo wa ANC morena. [Kenohanong.]


Ms T J MOKWELE: With due respect hon Chair; Ace, sit down. Ace, sit down. Sit down Ace.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon ... Thank you very much.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I actually wanted to address Ace but unfortunately he is gone.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I think we are now just being deliberately disruptive. We agreed earlier on that we must be respectful with each other. The member now even addressed hon Magashule, not even as premier, but as Ace.


...leina la strata, la bolo.

Ms N KONI: A ke la strata? A wa re Ace ke straat meit? [Setshego.]


Hon members, let us not do that.

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order Chair: I withdraw hon Ace.

Mr P MASHATILE (GAUTENG): Hon Deputy Chair; Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Thandi Modise; Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, hon Cyril Ramaphosa; hon Premier Ace Magashule; members of Executive Council; delegates of the NCOP; representatives of local government; fellow South Africans.


Setjhaba sa Freistata, ...


... it gives me great pleasure on behalf of the Premier of Gauteng, David Makhura, to take part in this debate under the

theme: “Celebrating 20 years of the Constitution and the NCOP

- deepening Parliamentary oversight for quality services to our people.”

Let me begin by indicating that one of the key defining features of the ANC-led fifth provincial administration in Gauteng is that we are an activist government; a government that engages with all sectors of society on a continuous and sustained basis; we are a government that listens, that is responsive and a government that works in partnership with stakeholders towards a common goal of transforming, modernising and reindustrialising Gauteng in line with the National Development Plan, NDP, Vision 2030.

This posture of our government has found expression in our Ntirhisano Outreach Programme and Service Delivery War Room. Through Ntirhisano we continually engage communities and all sectors of society with a view to working with them towards resolving their problems.


Ka mantswe a mang, ...


...we go to communities, we look at projects that government is implementing and we engage with them so that they become partners in development. That is how Ntirhisano Programme works.

Just yesterday, as part of Ntirhisano Programme, we once again visited communities of Mogale City in the West Rand to engage with them, to look at what government is doing there and assist to improve services.


Re a leboga EFF ka go bouta le rona gore tekanyetsokabo ya Mogale City e tswelele pele.


Thank you very much. [Applause.] [Laughter.] I must report that the work is going very well. Thank you very much to the EFF. [Applause.]

We also did this as part of assuring communities in the West Rand that as government, we are determined to build amongst

others an inclusive economy where no one is left out. Gone are the days when some parts of our province will be treated as the Cinderellas of development as we are serious about social and economic inclusion.

Hon members, Ntirhisano is about partnership in development. It is about improving accountability, oversight and responsiveness; it is about ensuring that our interventions deliver the desired results of improving the quality of lives of our citizens.

I want to commend members of the NCOP for taking Parliament to the people as you’re doing here in the Free State. Continue to do that because as we engage with the people, we are able to improve their lives by changing the way government works, by improving facilities and therefore service delivery.

Since 2014, Deputy President, as Gauteng we have visited more than 100 communities; which is very important because that’s how we can continue to improve the quality of lives of our people.

Hon members, ultimately through Ntirhisano, we are mobilising all stakeholders in the implementation of our programme for radical transformation, modernisation and industrialisation; towards the goal of building a Gauteng City Region that is socially and economically inclusive, a leading economy in the African continent at the cutting edge in the fourth industrial revolution and an active, empowered citizenry.

Hon members, we are of the view that our bold programme for transformation, modernisation and reindustrialisation, is the most direct and effective route towards building the kind of South African society envisaged in our Constitution; a society where divisions of the past are healed; where government is based on the will of the people; where there is improved quality of life and a society where the potential of each person is freed.

However, despite the many challenges we still face, our Mid- Term Review Report which we published in May this year, provides irrefutable evidence on the significant progress we are making in transforming, modernising and reindustrialising the Gauteng City Region.

Chairperson, one of the challenges we face – like other provinces - is the state of the economy. Just in the last quarter of 2017, Gauteng lost about 146 000 jobs. Part of our response to this problem is that we have identified infrastructure investment as a key counter cyclical intervention through which we can reignite the economy, create jobs and advance transformation and empowerment.


Re a tseba hore batho ba bangata ka hara bodulo ba rona ba na le bothata ba ho fumana mosebetsi. Ke ka hoo re reng, re le mmuso re ikemiseditse haholo hore batho ba fumane mosebetsi.


This, we will do through infrastructure development as a critical intervention to ensure that we can build an active, healthy, safe and skilled citizenry.

In this regard, last month only, we convened a highly successful two-day second biannual Gauteng Infrastructure Investment Conference, which was attended by up to a 1 000 delegates from the continent and throughout the world.

It is through initiatives like this that we believe that we will be able to reignite the economy, to be able to ensure that there is more investment in the economy and to be able to ensure that we can create jobs for our people.

According to a study by KPMG conducted in 2016, our infrastructure investment has contributed 92 000 direct jobs into the Gauteng economy; R15 billion to support household incomes; on average for every R1 spent on infrastructure, we have been able to add an additional 92 cents in the economy; increased government revenue by R6 billion; and generated additional economic activity worth R26 billion to the provincial economy.

It is quite clear that despite the challenges that we face, there is improved conditions in many of our communities. We have improved in the delivery of water, we have improved in the delivery of electricity and we have ensured that more of our people live in communities they are much much better than previous yeas.

As part of accelerating social development we are, among others, intervening decisively in addressing the problems within our public health system. I know that the NCOP has been looking at the issue of health.


Mr P MASHATILE (GAUTENG): Thank you very much hon members and good by the NCOP. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Moh N P KONI: Ke a leboga Modulasetilo, ke tsaya tshono eno go dumedisa balwantwa ...


... the EFF voters and supporters.

Chairperson, the EFF is very disappointed but, at the same time, we found things we expected to find in Mr Magashule’s province. We maintain our position that the ANC-led government in the Free State is celebrating incompetence and mediocrity. Public funds are mismanaged with impunity, and no one is

taking responsibility for this looting. The whole premier, Mr Magashule, is either ignoring this, or he is unable to implement consequence management or accountability because he is corrupt to the core – just like Duduzane’s father. Mr Magashule and Duduzane’s father are like this.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, please take your seat.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, I rise ...



Hodimo moo, le tlile ho tla mamela, e seng ho nka karolo. Ka kopo [Please].


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please! Mr Mthimunye?

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member is very derogatory in her address. For one, she casts

aspersions on a member by saying he is corrupt without providing substantive proof.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, the hon Ace Magashule is covered by the Rules of the NCOP. When he is here, he is treated as a full member of the NCOP. You cannot cast aspersions without a proper report, so I would suggest that you withdraw the statement.

Ms N KONI: I do agree, Chairperson, but what exactly is it I must withdraw?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no! Unconditionally.

Ms N P KONI: No, you must just quote me the derogatory line.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You referred to Premier Magashule as corrupt.

Ms N P KONI: I withdraw that unconditionally.


Ms N P KONI: Public servants are instructed to leave their office tasks and attend public relations campaigns that are led by the Office of the Premier and that have serious financial implications. All these employees have to claim for these unnecessary trips undertaken, and this is looting and corruption at its best.

The EFF maintains there is no need for a massive contingent of public servants to attend this political programme because even when they arrive at the place where this programme is held, they do not have specific roles to play. Instead, they become part of the audience to be addressed by Premier Ace Magashule. Mr Ace Magashule ...


O na le bodidi jwa dikakanyo, ka jalo ke raya gore o ...


... suffering from poverty of ideas. Because of these ill- conceived programmes, allocated funds for transport purposes from different departments are depleted before the targeted

period. The alignment of the budget with annual performance plans is also disrupted.

All of this contributes towards qualified audit outcomes by the Auditor-General. In this province, there is no consequence management for irregular, wasteful, fruitless and unauthorised expenditure. Not even a single department mentioned in their annual performance plans early this year steps that had been taken against those who have violated the supply chain processes. Why is this? It is because Duduzane’s father, the hon Ace, and they are like this.

The provincial Departments of Health, Social Development, and Local Government and Housing are a mess and a Mecca of incompetence and inefficiency. Corrupt and poor governance is at the order of the day in this province. Mr Magashule can attest to that. Almost all municipalities and some provincial departments in this province received adverse findings from the Auditor-General. Disclaimers, qualified audit opinions with matters of emphasis, and nonsubmission of financial statements are some of the findings by the Auditor-General against municipalities and some departments in this province.

Be that as it may, the MECs of Health, Social Development and of Local Government and Housing are still in the provincial government despite this high level of incompetence. They failed to turn around the situation in many municipalities, as well as Health and Social Development in this province. On Tuesday, the MEC of Social Development said ...


... fa le ya kwa ntlwaneng go ya go ntsha metsi le se ke la folasha, le folashe fela fa le fetsa go ithusa. Mokhuduthamaga wa Tlhabololo ya Setšhaba ga a bue sepe ka bophepa mme ...


Worst of all, she is a woman. How can a woman go to a toilet



... e e folashiwang fela a bo a sa folashe morago ga go ntsha metsi. A re go dira jalo ke go boloka metsi fela ...


What about hygiene? What about the infections caused by germs in those toilets? A whole woman, an MEC, states this nonsense.

The premier’s legacy of Operation Hlasela is devoid of any positive correlation between the intended objectives and actual plans. Despite the noise in the last quarter of 2016, unemployment expanded by 4,2% in this province. The Free State province was ahead of all other provinces in terms of expansion of unemployment. Currently, it is still a major contributor to the nine million South Africans who are struggling to find gainful employment. Money is being misused to develop and consolidate the premier’s personality cult. The face of the premier is all over the place in government buildings.

The people of this province should know that when dictatorship rears its ugly head, it will not beat drums to announce its arrival. The same MEC of Social Development said ...


... basadi ba tlogele go apara diaporo tse dikhutshwane ka gonne ba laletsa go betelelwa.


... a whole Social Development MEC, a woman, and especially in Women’s Month, that woman does not have a heart. I don’t know what I would regard her as, but she must be ashamed of herself. In Women’s Month, a social development woman – who should at least be distributing sanitary towels, who should at least be distributing wheelchairs – goes out and says women should not wear short things. We must wear everything we want, everything we feel comfortable in – it does not matter where and when. We should be free in South Africa. So, she is saying we are inviting rape – a whole Social Development MEC, she must be ashamed.

Mr S ZIKALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Thandi Modise, the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, hon Cyril Ramaphosa, the Premier of Free State, hon Magashule, members of the NCOP, the representatives of provinces, fellow South Africans, we join our compatriots as we observe yet another seminal moment in the evolution of our hard-won democratic dispensation, mainly the 20 years of our Constitution and the 20 years of the establishment of the NCOP.

It is often said that those who make history seldom appreciate that their actions will leave an indelible mark in their society at the time when they make such history. History is often made by ordinary people who, because of their own experiences and the dictate of their circumstances, are driven to perform extraordinary things.

The story of South Africa’s break with her colonial and apartheid past is a story of ordinary people who dare dream of a better future and a better world. It is a story of ordinary people who dedicated and decided to engage in the struggle to build a new democratic and prosperous society. It is a story of how people who suffered for many injustices at the hands of their fellow country men had worked together with their former adversaries to create one human’s greatest achievement; a society that is premised on human dignity, justice and equality.

One of the least quoted but most important passages in our Constitution of the Republic of South Africa is the explanatory memorandum. An excerpt from this memorandum states as follows: “This Constitution therefore represent the

collective wisdom of South African people and has been arrived at by the general agreement.”

The importance of this excerpt stems from the fact that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, adopted as it was in 1996 a mere two years after the democratic breakthrough, was a tangible product of South Africa that had been decided to curve a new future for herself.



heso, ho na le lerata. Ntho ena ke Palamente. Ha o hloka ho qoqa, tswa o thotse o ilo qoqela kantle. Ha o le hare mona, re batla ho utlwa batho ba sefaleng mona. Ke a kopa hle, batho ba heso.

Mr S ZIKALALA: Our Constitution has its roots in the struggle for liberation. Its thrust is derived from the ANC’s policies, in particular the 1943 African Claim, the 1955 Freedom Charter and later the ANC’s pre 1994 policy framework – the Ready to Govern.

In the Ready to Govern document the ANC argues, and I quote, “Our task now is to rally all South African patriots around the principles for which we have always stood for, namely, of equality, mutual respect, dignity and promotion of basic human rights. After so many decades of struggle and sacrifice, we must achieve a constitution that guarantees that oppression, discrimination, inequality and division will never stalk our land again.”

Indeed 23 years after the achievement of democracy, millions of our people now have access water, electricity and are now enjoying shelter provided by the ANC-led government. Our government is hard at work rolling out the National Health Insurance. In the province of KwaZulu-Natal, people with chronic diseases do not have to go to hospitals anymore, but instead get their medication in churches closer to areas of residence.

Not withstanding these successes, our former oppressors and their accolades have now positioned themselves as the guardian of our Constitution from the people whom they claim are determined to discredit it. This narrative finds expression in

the hollow assertion that those who are not happy with the pace of transformation and its intended manifestation are advocating for a society that is devoid of the sacred Constitutional principle upon which our country is founded. This narrative also finds expression in the fallacy that anyone who is agitative for change in the status quo is striking at the very heart of our Constitutional dispensation.

We want to state for record that this Constitution was nourished with the blood of our people who paid the ultimate price for its realisation. Our people are the bulk walk and the collective insurance against its discretion. However, it does not mean that where we need to change and amend the Constitution we will be scared to do so.

The result of the second quarter of the labour force survey confirms that as a country we are sitting on a time bomb in terms of equality and the expression of this equality is still along racial lines. That is why those who benefitted from the apartheid colonialism will do everything to defend their legacy.

Of 6,1 million unemployed in the second quarter of 2017, a total of 5,4 million are black Africans while only 110 000 are white. A day before yesterday, Statistics SA released the poverty trends in South Africa which also confirm that the poverty still engulf the majority of black Africans in South Africa.

From the ANC perspective, we view the Constitution as an enabler in addressing poverty, inequality and unemployment. For the Constitution to do this we need to move away from viewing the Constitution as a rigid document, a holy cow that we should not dare interrogate inline with the dictate of the different phases of our struggle.

In this regard, we concur with the sentiment shared by the retired Deputy Chief Justice, Judge Dikgang Moseneke where he said, and I quote, “Very little was done with the question of land equity when the Constitution was written and the effects are being lived now.”

Clearly we need to act decisively on the question of land. Interestingly, when we call for the amendment of the

Constitution to allow an expropriation of land with no compensation, those who benefitted and continue to benefit from the profit of stolen land, argue that this will undermine the Constitution. However, for years, the same people have been agitating for a referendum on the death penalty for which it will also require the review of the Constitution.

This is the hypocrisy that undermines the Constitution and not the effort of those who want to advance our revolution through proper and equitable distribution of wealth and resources of our country. As all of us know, in line with the current epoch which we - the ANC - have characterised as the second phase of transition towards a national democratic society, we are now seized with the implementation of the radical economic transformation agenda. We argue that when it comes to issues of socioeconomic justice, the Constitution ... [Time expired.]

Ms M G MAKHURUPETJE (Limpopo): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, the Deputy President, hon Cyril Ramaphosa, the Premier of Free State, hon Ace Magashule, Ministers and Deputy Ministers here, members of the NCOP, my colleagues MECs from the different provinces and speakers who are here from different

legislatures and members of legislatures from the different provinces, executive mayors and mayors and councillors, hon members, comrades, ladies and gentlemen...


...setšhaba sa Freistata, re a le dumediša.


It is always an honour and great privilege for us as Limpopo to partake in the debate in this august House, on behalf of our Premier of Limpopo, hon Chupu Stanley Mathabatha. Let me start by welcoming the address by the Deputy President, hon Cyril Ramaphosa. Indeed your address has succeeded to highlight the significant milestones that have traversed as a nation in the past 20 years of our constitutional democracy. These milestones were mostly recorded through the support and the quality oversight work of the NCOP.

There is no doubt that the past 20 years of the existence of the NCOP, has been 20 years of taking service to the people. We can look back with the pride and say that through this institution we have done our best to fulfil contractual

obligations to the people of South Africa. This obligation that forms part of our commitment to the people is the obligation to restore the inherent dignity of our people that has been battered by successive regimes of white minority rule.

Amongst others, we have done this by ensuring that we widen the doors of education and training to the youth, we bring about equality before the law, we remove all artificial barriers that barred our people from full and meaningful participation in the socioeconomic life of our country and expand on the provisioning of basic services such as housing, water, electricity and decent sanitation to our people.

Madam Chairperson and hon members, you will know that Limpopo is one of those provinces which still carry the vivid, but ugly birthmarks of the legacy of apartheid and colonialism.
This is because a significant part of our province is rural and as a result we were deliberately excluded from government planning and service provision before 1994.

Today, many of our people who were reluctant to identify with our province, because of its underdevelopment are happier to say, I am from Polokwane, Mokopane and I stay in Lephalale, Musina and so forth. This is because of the visible improvements and benefits that have accrued for our people since the advent of our new constitutional order.

Madam Chairperson of the NCOP, in Limpopo, I can indicate that on matters of health, Limpopo is implementing the Ideal Clinic programme and to date, more that 77 health care facilities are meeting that status. In the 2015-16 and the 2016-17 financial years, more than 100 state-of-the-art ambulances were delivered in the province in different health facilities.

The province has managed to reduce maternal HIV infection and vertical transmission from 2% to 1,1% against the target of 1,4%. Our TB treatment success rate is at 82% while our multidrug resistant TB treatment success rate is at 87,7% which is above the national target of 80%. [Applause.]

Part of these improvements includes the fact that in Limpopo for example, we have over 70% of learners in public schools

that do not pay school fees. Every year our provincial government ensures that we expand the network of both school nutrition programme and all important scholar transport.

Since 1994, we have build and handed over 320 ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon MEC, please take your seat. The hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, my point of order is: The MEC is telling us what we heard when she addressed us while she was in Cape Town. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are on a point of order Ma’am. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am requesting that she must come with something new, because we have heard these things before. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please take your seat, you know that you are out of order. Hon MEC, please continue.

Ms M G MAKHURUPETJE (Limpopo): Since 1994, we have built and handed over 320 and 16 units which benefitted 1,8 million people of Limpopo. The province is gearing towards achieving
80 000 housing opportunities by 2019. Achieving this target contributes to the national target of 1,5 million housing opportunities by 2019. This number will be adding to the
4,3 million houses which our government has built countrywide since 1994.

Today, almost 93% of households in Limpopo are connected to electricity. We have improved on our network to decent sanitation. Although much still needs to be done in this area, given the huge backlog we inherited. Thus far our province has managed to connect over 78% of our households to clean drinkable water.

The recent Statistics Quarterly Labour Force Survey for second quarter of 2017, revealed quarterly figures, indicates that

Limpopo province recorded the highest employment gains of

32 000 jobs in the country, followed only by KwaZulu-Natal province at 29 000. [Applause.]

These achievements can only be attained through hard work and good leadership by our premier and this province supported ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Makhurupetje, please take your seat. Hon Mokwele, again.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is: There is no consistency in Limpopo and it can only mean what the MEC is saying, Limpopo delegates do not agree with her, because it is only one person clapping hands.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, you are out of order. Please continue, Ma’am.

Ms M G MAKHURUPETJE (Limpopo): We are recognised among the provinces that have shown the right momentum in 2015-16 municipal audit outcomes. This is a notable decrease in the amount of fruitless and wasteful expenditure incurred by municipalities during that period. There is improvement of unqualified audit opinion findings from 2015 to 2015-16 financial year. The Auditor-General, AG, attributes the improvements in Limpopo to an increased focus in resolving audit findings.

Emerging out of the 2016 local government elections, municipalities in Limpopo continue to lead the charge in gender equality followed by the North West and the Eastern Cape provinces. To be specific, 14 of the 27 mayors in Limpopo are women. On a month dedicated to women, this is obviously an encouraging good story of our country, especially given the current challenges we are facing relating to the brutal attacks of our women and children.

Indeed, we will continue to follow the footprints of our heroines and heroes that were led by Charlotte Maxeke, Lillian Ngoyi and many of our struggle heroes that have led before us.

These and many other achievements that I have alluded to, show that we are indeed a province on the move.

Let me conclude by inviting everyone to join the winning partnership led by the ANC, so that we can realise more achievements for our people. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr V R SHONGWE (MPUMALANGA): Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, the Chairperson of the NCOP, hon T R Modise, Premier of Free State, hon Magashule and all MECs from different provinces that are here, members of the NCOP, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, hon Chair, our young democracy has many notable milestones to be celebrated by all South Africans across all races, political and religious affiliation, which include the Constitution and the NCOP, as captured in the theme for this outreach. As we lower our banners in this month of August to remember the contribution of women in our revolution, we also pride ourselves that this year has been declared the Year of O R Tambo. I will honestly appeal to hon members, especially women, that they must support each other as women and not come

here on the podium and criticise each other rather build each other as women. [Interjections.]

Ms N KONI: On a point of order, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Shongwe, please take your seat. Hon Koni, you are on your feet.

Ms N KONI: I promised myself that I was not going to ask the hon member there any question. So, he is provoking me.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, do you want to ask the member a question, ma’am?

Ms N KONI: Yes.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Shongwe, will you take a question?


Mnu V R SHONGWE: Hawu, ngiyaxolisa lungu elihloniphekile Koni.


umbuzo yini?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, the hon member won’t take a question. Continue, sir.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Point of order, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is another point of order, please take your seat. Hon Mokwele?


Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke emela ntlha ya kgalemo. Ke ne ke re bolelele sebui se se mo podiamong gore ... [Tsenoganog.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no. Are you on a point of order, not on a point of speaking?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, on a point of order. [Interjections.] He is misleading the House, Chair. The hon Koni when she was referring to women ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, you are out of order because this member on the podium did not say hon Koni.

Ms T J MOKWELE: It was only hon Koni who mentioned women.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, take your seat. You cannot assume simply because ... please take your seat, ma’am!


We are

not promoting ... [Interjections.]



NCOP: Please take your seat!



because it is you, I will sit down.



NCOP: Hon Koni, what is it?

Ms N KONI: It’s a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: A point of order?

Ms N KONI: Yes, Chairperson. Okay, he did not mention my name, but he must stop coming ... [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon member. Oh, no, no!

Ms N KONI: He must stop looking at me. Chair, he must face that direction.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, just a little lecture from an old woman who is presiding. All South Africans have the rights to associate and to look wherever they want to look and to sit where they are. [Interjections.] No, you cannot infringe on the rights of a member who is on the podium; he can look anywhere in the House. Please, proceed.

Mr V R SHONGWE: Hon Chairperson, the reason why I am looking at this side is because she is wearing a red colour and the red colour is more visible than any other colour. [Applause.] Our visit to the Free State province have exposed all off-site legacy of apartheid for over 350 years when the National Party

was in charge of this country and that will never be written off.


Ngifuna ukusho ke ngisho ngesiZulu ukuthi ngeke size sikhohlwe la sibuya khona ngoba angeke sazi ukuthi siyaphi. [Ubuwelewele.]


That is what we are doing – building as Mpumalanga. We are also building and assembling plants for tractors both in Ekandustria in Nkangala as well as Gert Sibande in Secunda. That is where we are going to skill our people in making sure they are able to maintain tractors and go back and till the land. That is going to create jobs and build capacity, especially to the youth of the province. [Interjections.]


Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngifuna ukusho ke ukuthi siyiMpumalanga



... we are at work. We have also seen the hospitals and clinics here in Free State which were built by the apartheid government.


Ngiyabonga kakhulu bab’ uMagashule nikanye nobab’ uKhompela ukuthi ...


... you are busy addressing that apartheid legacy. Everybody must remember that the area towards Lesotho was once a Bantustan area and Qwaqwa as well. For that matter, those matters need to be addressed. [Interjections.] What we have observed ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Shongwe, please take your seat. Please continue, hon Shongwe.

Mr V R SHONGWE: Hon Koni, don’t take things personal.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, don’t address hon Koni; address me.


Mnu V R SHONGWE: Ungabi ”personal” mhlonishwa. Ungakhiphi izindaba zethu zasekamelweni phambi kwabantu. [Uhleko.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Shongwe, please withdraw that remark ... [Interjections.] ... said in good humour as it was.

Ms N KONI: Unconditionally!

Mr V R SHONGWE: I withdraw unconditionally.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please continue, sir.

Mr V R SHONGWE: In the process, we will create new jobs while laying a conducive environment for our farmers to sustain their work of producing food to feed the nation through supplying the Agri-hubs and the Mpumalanga International Fresh Produce Market. We have discovered that most of the health facilities in this province are overburden and operating beyond normal standards. Despite the fact that they are overstretched, they use what is available to assist our

people. That needs to be appreciated. Hon Chair, ... [Time expired.]

Mr L B GAEHLER: The UDM is appalled by the state of health system in the Free State. We recognise that the country is in a difficult financial state; however, the situation here is far more than just a matter of throwing money to the problem. It is very clear that there is absolutely no leadership and political will on the part of those given responsibilities to provide qualitative and reliable basic health service to the people.

Many, if not all, health facilities do not have adequate staff, machinery and have decaying infrastructure - one cannot claim to be a caring government while exposing human beings to such bad services. Worse than what we have seen with our naked eyes, behind the broken infrastructure there are empty offices and drawers with no proper medication. It is better for the poor people to stay at home than to go to these facilities where there is no service.

This situation is affecting the poorest of the poor, those who do not have hope for jobs - the jobless. The well-off go to private facilities. Any nation whose health is a suspect or even in the state of decay has no reason to call itself a nation.

The UDM calls on the national government to intervene in the Free State health department. More than 70% of the South African population, as confirmed by the 2015 General Household Survey, GHS, use public health facilities.


Sihlalo, ngoMeyi besilapha, enye yeendawo besityelele kuyo yi- Mohokare Local Municipality e-Rouxville, apho besityelele ikliniki ebizwa ngokuba yi-Winnie Mandela Clinic. Sifike apho kungekho basebenzi kunqongophele nabongikazi. Umphathi ebesifike ekhona obambeleyo ...


... was worst of all. In 2014 this government promised to build them health care facility. They started to build that in May 2014. Up to May 2017 when we were there, only the

foundation was built. There was building material; money had been paid and nobody knows what happened to that money. That is in Rouxville, Deputy President ...


... uzukhe uye kuyibona. Imali iphumile nezixhobo zokwakha nazo zikhona kodwa akwakhiwanga.

Okokugqibela, ngolwesibini besilapha eThaba Nchu kwikliniki ebizwa ngokuba yi-Dinane apho izibonelelo zezakhiwo ezingundoqo ziphele tu. Into yokuqala esothusileyo phaya kukuba sifike kukho ikontraka ekuthiwa izokwakha izindlu zangasese, nakhona izakha kuba sityelela khona. Eyesibini, kukubona izixhobo zokwakha ezingekho semngangathweni wokulungisa isikhiwo esonakele kakhulu nesifuna ukuqalwa phantsi. Siye safuna ukuqonda ngexabiso lemali ebiziweyo ukulungisa isakhiwa ngezixhobo zokwakha esizibonileyo nezingekho semthethweni. Singamalungu ahlukeneyo eqela lezopolitiko sothuka xa sisonke ukufumanisa ukuba la msebenzi wonke wokwakha uxabise malungu ne-R180 000.


However, what is worse, MEC, R100 000 of that money is for the management of the project and 80 000 goes to material. Where that money goes to?       Therefore, we call on you, Deputy President ...


... niqwalasele urhwaphilizo oluqhubekayo apha kweli phondo. imali karhulume ayikwazi ukuphuma isetyenziswe ekuhlawuleni izinto ezingekhoyo. Ngenani apha Thaba Nchu ...


If you go to Thaba Nchu, Deputy President, there is no infrastructure. It has never been incorporated into the Free State ...


... nabantu bakhona bayakhala. Ngoko ke ezi zinto kufuneka zilungiswe. Imali karhulumente yeyokuba kuziswe iinkonzo eluntwini; hayi ukutyebisa abantu abathile. Enkosi.

Ms M J MALULEKE (NORTH WEST): Hon Chair, I am sorry maybe I am having the wrong ... [Interjections.].

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! You are protected please, start.

Ms M J MALULEKE (NORTH WEST): ... maybe I am having the wrong Speaker’s List. Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, the Deputy President of the country, the premier of Free State, hon NCOP members, members of the legislature present, SA Local Government Association, Salga, leadership, community members and distinguished guests, let me first bring the greetings from the people’s province of Bokone Bophirima and accept the apology of the premier of North West, hon Supra Mahumapelo, who due to some of government commitment he could not be with us.

Two years after the first democratic elections in 1994, the first democratic President of the Republic of South Africa, the global icon, the man who spent his entire part of his life fighting for the downtrodden, made history when he signed the final draft of the Constitution in Sharpeville, in Vereeniging, on the 10 December 1996, which was the International Human Rights Day. We gather today, 20 years after to celebrate the history made in Sharpeville. We

celebrate the Constitution which for the first time guaranteed the citizens of this country, both blacks and whites equality before the law. Chapter 2 of this historic document entrenches the Bill of Rights, which South Africans from all of lives have as the protections against any form of discrimination.

On behalf of the people of Bokone Bophirima, we take pride of the achievement made since the adoption of this Constitution. Our people’s dignity has been restored. South African, mostly blacks and Africans in particular ... [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, we are requesting Madam there to

... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I can’t hear you, Madam.

Ms T J MOKWELE: We are requesting Madam to raise her voice, we can’t hear anything.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are right. Mme Maluleke, I can’t hear you too, please raise your voice.

Ms M J MALULEKE (NORTH WEST): Thank you Chair. On behalf of the people of Bokone Bophirima, we take pride of the achievement made since the adoption of the Constitution. Our people’s dignity has been restored. South African, mostly blacks and Africans in particular, now feels that they are not visitors in the land of their forefathers. The dignity that was stolen from them by settlers who arrived in South Africa on the three ships has been restored. While we acknowledge that much has been done to improve the lives of our people, we will naive not to acknowledge the shortcomings that are still there to improve the lives of our people.

The forgotten population who are subjected to slavery method of living are still found in the farming land. Our people are still subjected to a long working hours without being paid overtime. Their living conditions are still bad, no electricity, no water and sometimes no access to medical care. While we celebrate today here, we must think of those women in the far-flung areas of the country who still have to travel long distance to access water and woods to cook for their children.

However, Madam Chairperson, there is much call for celebration. The Constitution of the South Africa is the supreme law of the country. It provides the legal foundation for the existence of the Republic, set out the rights and duties of its citizens and defines the structures of government. South Africa is indeed a constitutional democracy. We have seen on numerous occasions the Constitution prevails on matters that are of importance to the citizens. It ensures that we are public representative accountable to the electorate on the mandate given to us during elections.

Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, in order to realise what the preamble of the Constitution states, the people’s province of Bokone Bophirima has adopted the five concretes as the driving force for service delivery towards changing the lives of our people. Amongst these five concretes, the other one talks about reconciliation, healing and renewal. This preamble of this historic Constitution states that:

We the people of South Africa recognise the injustices of the past; honour those who suffered for justice and

freedom in our land; respect those who worked to build and develop our country and believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.

That is the reason why the hon premier of Bokone Bophirima, Mr Supra Mahumapelo, has launched the reconciliation, healing and renewal on the 18 of July when we were celebrating Mandela Day, where a clarion call was made to white people, especially white farmers to take part of the healing process and we seek to build South Africa for all. The government of Bokone Bophirima will embark on a farm to farm visit; check the conditions of our people lives in, where conditions are bad, engage the farmers to allow government to intervene in order to improve the life of an African child. We have realised that there are farm workers buried along the road, we will intervene as government within the law and in consultations with families, exhume the bodies and rebury them in dignity.

For us to heal the division of the past and establishes a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human right we need to work together, both blacks and whites. Deputy President, on the signing of the final

draft of the Constitution into law, former President Nelson Mandela has this to say, I quote:

By your presence here today, we solemnly honour the pledge we made to ourselves and to the world, that South Africa shall redeem herself and thereby widen the frontiers of human freedom.

He further said:

As we close a chapter of exclusion and a chapter of heroic struggle, we affirm our determination to build a society of which each of us can be proud, as South Africans, as Africans, and as citizens of the world.

Indeed, we are proud to be South Africans in the free Africa

20 years after and we are looking ahead with pride. Again, we gathered here celebrating the 20 years of the existence of the National Council of Provinces. What is more befitting is that we celebrate the 20 years of the NCOP on the month of women, the year of O R Tambo while NCOP is led by a strong woman,

imbokodo. We are proud as Bokone Bophirima to have a leader of her calibre coming from our province.

Mr Deputy President, South Africa is not a federal state; we are unitary state with national Parliament being the highest lawmaking body. Section 42(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa indicates that the NCOP represents provinces, to ensure that the provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. It does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing provinces a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces.

We have witnessed and continue to witness the effective program of Taking Parliament to the People and the impact it has made to the people of Dr Ruth Segomotsi Mompati especially in Ganyesa where the recent visit by members of the NCOP has ensured that the people’s government of Bokone Bophirima addresses challenges raised by members of the NCOP. We appreciate good work done by members of the NCOP. Their tenacity, endurance and commitment to work for the people of this country cannot go unrecognised. The people of Bokone

Bophirima will continue to be indebted to the good course of this House. We pledge our outmost commitment to continue appearing before this House to account every time when we are called upon to come and account.

To our communities, we are aware that much still need to be done but with the Constitution we have and the commitment of the members of the NCOP, we will reach Canaan where honey and milk will be for all. On behalf of the people of Bokone Bophirima, we appreciate the time given to us to come and celebrate with you. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, His Excellency, the Deputy President, the NCOP should be responding to the annual address by the President today. Instead we are responding to the address by the Deputy President. The IFP maintains that you have been brought here Deputy President so that the President does not get to be exposed to the bitter pills of his actions and wrong decisions which are collapsing clean governance in South Africa.

Be that as it may, I am reminded that the ANC has always maintained reflection of collective leadership. Therefore, the mess in which the country has been landed into by the governing party today cannot solely be blamed upon the President. Whilst the President is largely to blame, this is together with his entire collective leaderships. Sir, you are the second in command of that collective leadership.

In your own words Deputy President this is what you said last month in reference to the misfortunate happenings in the country. You said the house is on fire.

Two weeks back at the OR Tambo Lecture, this is what you said, and I quote:

We want our money back. The money that has been given out without good reason must be brought back.

Addressing SA Democratic teachers Union, Sadtu in Durban in May this year, this is what you said, sir. We will not surrender South Africa to greed and corruption.

These are reflections of the state of collapse, mismanagement and irregularities in our country from the view point of the Deputy President of the country. The IFP agrees with you sir in all these reflections. The only difference between you and the IFP is that you are beginning to realise these misfortunes only now. You are beginning to pronounce on these misfortunes only now whereas the IFP has repeatedly warned, repeatedly sounded danger signals, repeatedly raised alarm, all these fell on deaf ears, including the recently awakened ear of the Deputy President.

The state of some of the health facilities and provision of health in this province is appalling. There is a saying that when you starve urban people they riot, when you starve rural people they die. This is very true about service delivery here in the Free State, especially in Thaba Nchu, most of the clinics we visited are in a state of perpetual neglect by government. Some of the clinics we visited are, Klipfontein, Kgalala, Seadimo, Mafane and Dinane.

In Klipfontein, Kgalala and Seadimo, they do not have any security guard. They are all rural. But in Mafane, because

they are located in a township or semi-urban area, they have seven security guards.

In some facilities and in the district, managers are acting. Some have been acting since 2012 without receiving any acting allowance. In Thaba Nchu, the District Health Forum is neglected, the District Health Council has collapsed, clinic committees are collapsing, even the ones that still have some good about this clinic saying the facility manager. The state of neglect in Thaba Nchu local area for most facilities is just beyond anyone’s understanding. I thank you, Chair.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, members, Deputy President, MECs present, Councillors ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, get closer to your mic please.

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... the people of Mangaung and South Africans at large, listening to the people of Mangaung this week, I came to the conclusion that the raison d’etre of people’s woes in Mangaung is economic development. They need skills. They

need jobs. They want better health care now. They say that they did not get a better life as promised, and yes, hon Shongwe, by the ANC. Who else can we blame? It is the ANC that is in government.

Whilst we thank the staff in the health sector of the Free State who work so tireless under strenuous circumstances that we have seen this week and ANC members were with us. You also whispered in our ears that this is corruption. You said it yourselves that the premier is corrupt. You said, he is a mafia and you can’t have the guts to come here and stand to say that the people need a better government than the corrupt provincial government in this province. You said it yourselves, ANC members. However, hospitals and clinics still require much needed equipment. Staff shortages are the norm.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, please take your seat. Chief Whip!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order of hon Julius raising matters that distorts what the public hearings have been saying. But he is raising

an issue, not a debate but he is making strong allegations of issues that were never raised against the premier. I request you to rule on that.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We did not hear half of what you said because you were far from the mic.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: No, Chair, I am saying, he is making, hon Julius, making very strong allegations on matters that were not raised against the premier. So, I was requesting you to rule him out of order on the issues he is alleging.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chief Whip, I have a difficult in this one. In fact, the hon Julius is using what he has say because we were not there. He says that the ANC people who he is not naming said. I want to be given an opportunity to get advice on how to deal with this matter.
Please continue hon Julius.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you Chairperson, as I said I didn’t say it, the ANC said it. In this province people wait in long queues at hospitals and clinics and irregular tenders. The

health system of the Free State province is in a mess. In fact, the health system in the Free State is enough to make anyone sick.

The MEC Xasa, you spoke about remedial action, but you failed to acknowledge who the culprits are that got us here. After 23 years of ANC governance, it will be prudent to acknowledge who got us here at this stage, who failed our people that are listening at this stage. The people of the Free State, the real problem is that ANC leaders are more worried about their own political survival than your interest.

Deputy President, you told delegates at the SACP 14th National Congress that the Vrede farm given to the Guptas could have been used to build schools, roads, houses and other community needs for these people in the Free State. This is exactly what they want. They want the services. You also said, we cannot turn a blind eye on the leaked Gupta emails nor can we keep quiet. You also said it today.

Deputy President, the people need more straight talk. You are sitting amongst the people that are corrupt. Why can’t you

say, you are corrupt, it’s because of you. They are here amongst them that are cronies of the Guptas. They are recipients of the Guptas. We want you to talk straight to them and say; you don’t belong in government because you sold our people to the Guptas.

Deputy President, the Guptas are not stealing from the ANC or the SACP, they are stealing from the people. They are stealing from the government. We want you to talk to the people here in government and not at ANC rallies. You must address it here in front of this people. You were always silent on it when speaking in government. Just like today, a very rage approach, we want the straight approach so that we can root out corruption in this most corrupt province in the country.

Chairperson, allow me to challenge the Deputy President to come here today and tell these people sitting here that he will take action against the Guptas, against the President, against corrupt premiers, against corrupt officials and state- owned companies and all those that are stealing from government. Please come up, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, your time is expired. Thank you.

Mr J W W JULIUS: By the way, thank you for voting with us Deputy President in the motion of no confidence. [Time expired.].

Mr A BOTES (NORTHERN CAPE): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Ms Thandi Modise, and the Deputy Chairperson of NCOP, Raseriti Tau, and His Excellency the Deputy President of South Africa, hon Ramaphosa, the Premier of the Free State Province, Mr Ace Magashule and leaders of our organisation present

The Northern Cape wishes to acknowledge the privileged of your leadership here today. We wish to start with the seminal quote made in 1930 by Pixley ka Isaka Seme, a founding member of a founding member of the people’s liberation movement, who holds equal value today and I quote:

“in order to review the past and reject therein all those things which have retarded our progress, the things which poison the springs of our national life and virtue; to

label and distinguish the sins of civilisation, and as members of one house-hold to talk and think loudly on our home problems and the solution of them”.

The central topology, the overarching collective consensus is that the architecture of our struggle in South Africa is a struggle for the disenfranchised people of South Africa.

There can be a debate of what is the colour today about monopoly capital, but there can be no multiplicity of the colour of the South African struggle, it is primarily a struggle for betterment of the lives of the Black South African, with Africans in particular requiring a heighten focus.

From Kamiesberg to Fraserburg, from Carnarvon to De Aar, from Upington to Kuruman, to Kimberley, the people’s struggle must continue to be predictable and certain. It must be predictable knowing that the general attribute of the South African government is that of being a pro-poor people’s government. It must be certain knowing that the triple and stubborn pit falls of poverty, unemployment and inequality is a fight that must

be waged from the people’s corner, the working class and the poor.

Our language can therefore never be neutral. We are in the epoch wherein which we must be reminded that freedom was not free. We are the reflective and mirror-image wherein which the blood of our young martyrs must find political justification for their sacrifices.

We are the footprints that should confirmed that once were warriors amongst our people and as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the birth of Oliver Tambo, we must be reminded this revolution was not an apple which fell when ripe, but the story of the South African revolutionary project was brought about particularly by the colossal resilience of our youth and women movements led by the ANC.

Rosa Luxemburg was instructive, that the masses of South Africa are the decisive element in a people’s struggle. We therefore hold that as the people’s movement, we carried the burden of history, and we must continue to give hope to the

hopeless, jobs to the jobless, homes to the homeless and we must be seized with the parallel work to make poverty poorer.

Key poverty transmitters were a historic denial of basic services to our people. In the Northern Cape Province, we can report that water access stands at 97%, sanitation at 75%, electricity at 85% and refuse removal at 64% that is in terms of the Statistics South African 2011 census.

Equally so, Rosa Luxemburg remarked that the most revolutionary thing to do is to always proclaim loudly what is happening. In the Northern Cape, we are steadfastly pushing the frontiers of poverty backwards.


... Mitirho ya vulavula, Mutshamaxitulu.


Mr A BOTES (NORTHERN CAPE): Our deeds must speak for themselves. However, Amilcar Cabral has reminded us to always tell the truth, and not too easily claim victories.

In the Northern Cape, the most stubborn and colossal challenge remains unemployment. It is not true that the height of unemployment is located in the Free State Province. It is a lie.

The Northern Cape, based on the Statistics SA ...

Ms N KONI: On a point of order Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: MEC, please take your seat. Hon, Koni?

Ms N KONI: I would like to check with the speaker on the podium if he will gladly take a question from Northern Cape to Northern Cape?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Botes, can you take a question?

Ms N KONI: Northern Cape to Northern Cape.

Mr A BOTES: Hon Chairperson, I am unfortunately married.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is not willing, Madam, please take your seat.

Ms N KONI: Chairperson, I didn’t get the answer.


Ms N KONI: No, but that is not what he said.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He won’t take a question.

Ms N KONI: Chairperson that is not what he said.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Botes, did you not say you don’t want to take a question?

Mr A BOTES: Unfortunately, no, hon Chairperson.

Ms N KONI: No, he said unfortunately he is married, so I just wanted to check who is not married?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please stop wasting this House’s time. That is now superfluous; please take your seat Madam. Please, take your seat Hon Koni.

Ms N KONI: But he must withdraw what does his marriage has to do with me. He could have just said no. I am also happily married.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Madam, Please take your seat. You are also married. Take your seat.

Ms N KONI: Happily, say happily, Chairperson?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat, Madam.

Mr A BOTES: Chairperson, it is not true that the height of unemployment is located in the Free State Province. In terms of 01 June 2017, statistics released by Statistics SA, the Northern Cape is the province with the largest percentage of unemployed people, with expanded joblessness standing at 43,9% and narrow unemployment standing at 30,7 %.

However, we are confident working with the NCOP that our attentive detail and collaboration with state-owned entities, SoEs, and national government will unlock in particular the development of the Upington Cargo Hub, the Upington SEZ and Solar manufacturing plant, the Port Nolloth deep sea harbour development, and the revitalisation of Northern Cape rail

What is important today is to raise the matter of the stubborn matter of Eskom municipal debt. In the Northern Cape 68% of current and past municipal obligations is outstanding to Eskom for more than 90 days. The posture of Eskom is increasingly worrisome in the light of the glaring poverty challenges facing our people.

We cannot as a government and as a parliament be a passive observer in this interstate conflict, which evidently will undermine our forward movement as a people.

Leadership of SoEs is leadership of public affairs and it should always be primarily driven by the public interest.

In the centenary year of Oliver Tambo, the likes of Tisha Vanga and Tebogo Sikisi continue to be the face print and imagery of the youth defiance, amadelakufa. In the Northern Cape, we were the beneficiary of the first post-apartheid university with the establishment of Sol Plaatje University.

A key challenge remaining is how to ensure more relevancies to the primary economic sectors respond to the questions of the needs of research as the least to energy, science, mining and agriculture in the Northern Cape.

Let me address the issues of the fight against crime and corruption and it is correct that the ANC is leading the spite in the Northern Cape. The previous Namakwa Municipal Manager who was employed as a Grade 10 Municipal Manger finds himself today in the courts for financial fraud amounting to more a quarter million rand.

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: First, please, take your seat.

Ms T J MOKWELE: What I said in the beginning about the MEC that he is not in touch of his province.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not the point of order.

Ms T J MOKWELE: He is misleading the House. The person that he is talking about has been cleared by the court of law and he is misleading, because in all of the municipality in the Northern Cape all the Municipal Mangers don’t have necessary qualifications to occupy those positions as Municipal Manager and Directors and you know that, places such as Ga-Segonyana, Mogareng and Dikgatlong municipalities.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you Madam. Please, don’t extend the point. Hon Mokwele, you are now debating.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I can tell about more.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat! Hon Botes, proceed.

Mr A BOTES: This was also the gentleman that was employed without a matric to run a municipality.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We can’t hear you Sir.

Mr A BOTES: I said this gentleman who today happens to be the leader of the EFF in the Northern Cape.

Ms N KONI: On a point of order Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is another point of order, please take your seat. Hon Koni?

Ms N KONI: Your friends in Social Development Department, all the departments in the Northern Cape ...


Ms N KONI: ... you hired them without even a matric.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni! You know you are out of order.

Ms N KONI: You are misleading people of South Africa man.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni! Hon Botes, please proceed. Hon Koni! Hon Mokwele!

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, don’t debate with the speaker on the podium. What is the point of order?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I will never debate, but I am again standing here to say you must rule against what the hon MEC is saying, because I knew he will go and announce that the person that he is talking about is the leader of the EFF. The man has been cleared by the court of law, so he can’t come here and mislead South Africa and grand stand.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have made your point Madam. Please take your seat.

Ms T J MOKWELE: And he knows very well that what he is saying is wrong. You know that very well.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, take your seat. Hon Botes? Order! Hon Botes, if you do know that what the hon members are saying is true, please withdraw?
Mr A BOTES: Hon Chairperson, what I have said is that this current leader of the EFF has found his passage to the court of law. He was arrayed in criminal charges of fraud. That is what I have said. I have not pronounced on the outcome of the court.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Botes, order! No, I am not going to recognised you Madam. Hon Botes, hon Mokwele and hon Koni, I want to undertake to come back to this point, because, no hon Koni not in the House. You are withdrawing? There is now a discussion about the intricacies of politics about who is corrupt? Who was convicted and who is not convicted? As this House, we are not privy to that information. I would like to take the opportunity to do that and to rule and I do know that I can’t rule in the House when the hon member is there. I am however going to take advantage of Rule 2 to rule in his absence and to send a written ruling whichever way I will go once I have the facts. Can we now proceed please?

Mr A BOTES: Importantly, on Monday the conviction for corruption, fraud ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Botes, can you not come back to this particular matter?

Mr A BOTES: No, is another point, hon Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that a different point all together?

Mr A BOTES: Yes, I want to speak on the fight of corruption in relation to Karoo Hoogland municipality which was a municipality that was led by Cope and DA coalition where the Windsorton Regional Court have actually convicted successfully three senior municipal administrators for corruption and fraud as it relates to the free geysers that is meant for our poor people.

I am raising the facts that the ANC is central to the fight against corruption. This ANC government have ensured that Arthur Brown ...

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point order, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, I am not taking a point of order because the MEC’s time is also up.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Can he also mention the corruption of Ga- Segonyana and Mogareng Municipalities where the ANC is leading?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No. I am not taking your point of order. Please, take your seat, hon Mokwele! Get orderly. Hon Botes, your time has expired. Thank you very much.

MR A BOTES: Thank you very much for your attention, Chairperson.


MOKHANSELARA O MLAMLELI (SALGA): Ha ke hlomphe ho ba teng ha Motlatsa Mopresidente, Ntate Cyril Ramaphosa; ke hlomphe Modulasetulo ya kgabane Mme Thandi Modise, Mopremire Ntate Nagashule, Papa Hlasela; ...


... Members of the Free State Legislature and other legislatures; delegates of the NCOP; members of SA Local Government Association, Salga; provincial executive committee, PEC; executive mayors and mayors; and ladies and gentlemen, protocol observed.


Modulasetulo, rona re le ba mokgatlo wa Salga, re ne re shebile ebile re bona hore e ne e kgakgatha Shosholoza ya NCOP ka hara Mangaung: Ya phunyelletsa maqhubu a serame se kenellang masapong! Baahi ba Mangaung le ba Gariep ba tla ka metiletile ya bona ho ntsha mabinabina a dipelo tsa bona! Ba bua seo ba neng ba rata ho se bua: Ba akgola mmuso moo o entseng hantle; ebile ba tshwela ka mathe moo ho sa lokang!

Ho ne ho le monate, batho ba bua ka ho itlhompha; bo mme le bona ba le teng ka hare, ho se na bo ptjemtjete-ptjet ptjedilo! [Ditsheho.] Modulasetulo ya dutseng qhoweng, ...


... as Salga is instructed and it is also part of this Taking Parliament To The People programme, ...


Ke rata hore ke toboketse hore: Baheso, kamorao hore kgethollo [apartheid] e re hanele hore le rona re dule jwaloka ba ba sweu ka hara Palamente, ke mona Molimo o re thusitse. Mohau ona o re fihletse; le rona re dula ka hara Palemente! [Kena hanong.]

MODULASETULO WA NCOP: Mokhanselara, mphe motsotswana. Batho beso, lona ha le didietse ebile ha le ope matsoho. Le tlile mosebetsing wa mapalamente. Ka hlomphe hle! Tswela pele mme.

MOKHANSELARA O MLAMLELI (SALGA): Motsamaisi wa ditaba, re tena re dula ka hara Palamente ka lebaka la banna, bo Ntate O R Tambo - eo selemong sena a neng a tla be a keteka dilemo tse lekgolo ha e be a ne a ntse a ena le rona – ba ileng ba sotleha ke makgowa. Ke banna ba ile ba tshela dinoka ka maoto hore e be kajeno ho na le tulo eo ho thweng ke NCOP kajeno. Ka nnete re boka dikgomo.

Ha re akgole bokgabane ba kopano ena ya kgorula-koqo hee Modulasetulo. Bakgethwa kajeno ba tlile, ba tswile ka makatsa a namane, ba tlilo etsa ditshebeletso ebile ba tlile ho sheba hore na ditshebeletso tsa bophelo bo botle di jwang mona Freistata le Gariep, ka hara motse wa Mangaung – motse wa dipalesa [city of roses].

Ha se ka mehla baahi ba rona ba kgonang hore ba re fihlelle, ba bone Bapresidente, ba bone bo Ntate Ramaphosa. Kajeno lena le a iponela, tseo re hlolang re di bona Palamenteng thelebisheneng, re di bona ka mahlo. [Inaudible.] ... ka hara mmuso wa kgethollo [apartheid], e ne e le basweu kgahlano le ba batsho[wit en swart], ditshebeletso di be hantle.

Re bua ka motlotlo re le Salga: Re bone ka mahlo ha Ntate Magashule, matona a hae le majoro, ha ne ba eme mona ba fa batho hore tse kgonehang hore di lokiswe ka potlako di etsuwe jwalo. Re bone ho hlaselwa ho ntshwa ditulo tsa mabidi [wheelchairs] mona, bana ba fuwa diyunifomo, dipetlele di fuwa dikobo, e se ntse e hlasela ka tlasa Ntate Magashule.

Motsamaisi wa ditaba, ka nako ya ha ho ntse ho sebetswa hore batho ba tle ba tsebe ho kgetha, re ile ra utlwa mokgatlo wa EFF o tshepisa batho hore bona ba tla tlisa kliniki tsa dihora tsohle [24-hour clinic]. Re ntse re lebelletse le kajeno.
Empaneng mokgatlo ona wa ANC, ona o ... [Kena hanong.]

THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Counsellor, please take your seat. Mme Mokwele!

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order, Chair: She doesn’t even know that we are not in government. So, how will we do it if we are not in government? Wait for us to be in government mama, please. [Interjections.]


MODULASETULO WA NCOP: Ke a leboga mme.


Your point is taken. Thank you. Mme Mlamleli, please continue!

MOKHASELARA O MLAMLELI: Modulasetulo, puo ya ka e totobetse: Ha ho na moo ntseng ke re ptjetje-ptswedilo! [Ditsheho.] Taba

tsa ka ke tsena tse reng, ka hara Freistata ka mona hee, ha se re hlasela, rona re na le MUCPP le Batho Clinic, e leng di kliniki tsa dihora tsohle [24-hour clinics].

Modulasetulo ya kgabane, modulaqhowa ya motle, ka Lwetse re tla be re bula kliniki ya nako tsohle [24-hours clinic] mane Sosolo, Masepaleng wa Harry Gwala. Motlatsa Mopresidente, ke a kgolwa o a se utlwa Sesotho sa ka; ha o na le nako o tle o pote. [Mahofi.]


However, we observed during visits and site visits, ...


... hore matona a rona, ditho tsa Salga, ha ba ka ba tjhetjhella morao ha ho tjhakelwa dikliniki hobane ba ne ba batla ho etsa bonnete ba hore ba teng mme ba tsamaya le ditho tsa NCOP. Ba ne ba na le rona, mme re lebohile ho bona ho se nyamele ha bona.


Salga appreciates the role of women in South Africa’s struggle for emancipation.


Ke kgwedi ya bomme ena, eo ka yona re hopolang bo Mme Charlotte Maxeke, batho ba ho hwanta ka hara ...


... the then called Maitland Street, now called Charlotte Maxeke Street, as well as those women that marched in 1956.


Ha ba se ba le hopola letsatsi leo, ba re: ...

Afrikaans:  Strijdom, pasop, ...


... uza kufa!


As Salga, we are concerned that the 3 August 2016 Local Government Elections only managed to give 41% of women recognition. We are pleading that government must look at that. The launch of Salga Women’s Commission in 2010 was a major milestone to enable us as women to be given an opportunity ...


... hobane basadi matla, basadi ba na le bokgoni, ba tshwara thipa ka bohaleng. Mona Freistata, ka hara mokgatlo ona wa Salga re tla be re hlomamisa bo mme ba tla beng ba dula ditulo, ba tsetsepela. Re leboha demokrasi ena e etelletsweng pele ke lona bo mme; ena eo re akgolang bo mme ba sebete, bo Mme Baleka Mbethe, bo Mme Thandi Modisele le bo Mme Mamiki Qabathe. Re a kena, dingaka di re tshwaratswhare!

Mona Freistata, ke rata ho etsa mohlala ka Lefapha la Selehae [Home Affairs]. Ha o fihla Lefapheng la Selehae mane - ebile ha monate e Rocklands mme ha e Dan Pienaar – ho kena e motsho le e mosweu, re dula ha mmoho ka tatelano [side-by-side]. Ke: Hello! Morê! Goeiê dag! Sawubona! Molweni!

Ke rata hore ke thoholetse bomasepala ba rona ka hore: Ka nnete ba itekile!


Governance in our municipalities has improved immensely as indicated b improving audit outcomes. Audit outcomes are not the only indicators of stable governance, but they remain a good and reliable indicators for us as Salga. On Monday, when I took to the podium as the Executive Mayor of Mangaung Metro Municipality, I reported that while we inherited about nine disclaimers when we started last term, we are now happy to say that we are left with only two. The number of municipalities achieving unqualified opinions has increased, and we have Fezile Dabi with clean audits.


Ha ke qetella, ke re ke kope Matona a mmusong: Ha ba fihla ka hara bo masepala, ba se ke ba etsa ditshepiso tse tla bang boima hore ba kgutle ba di phethise; ba qabanya bo masepala le setjhaba. Ha ba ile ba tshepisa, ba mpe ba kgutle. Re a tshepisa hore re tla be re le teng ha le kgutla hape ka 2018, re ntse re na le Papa Hlasela, Ntate Magashule, ka sebete sena

se haesale, re tlaleha hore: Mona re entse; empa mona re sa haellwa. Re a leboha! [Mahofi.]

Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy President, comrade premier, executive mayors and all councillors present, hon members, MECs present here today, for many gathered here today, this event evokes the most emotional, yet inspiring memories of the past, the memories of the resilience of young people and workers of this area against the oppressive system of white minority domination during the 1980s.

It is from the crucible of these heroic struggles that the finest leaders who became the embodiment of the rich history of struggle in the Free State emerged. I speak here of the death-defying generation of the late Comrade Kaizer Abram Sebothelo, the first Provincial Secretary of the ANC in the Free State after whom this stadium is named.

The long highway from the entrance of Botshabelo to the far south evokes deep memories of one of our own, a humble servant of the people, political mentor of many amongst our

generation, the late comrade Jazzman Mokgothu. He died in the line of duty in the military camps of Uganda. To the executive Mayor of Mangaung, the youth of Botshabelo and generations to come will forever be indebted to you for naming this highway after this giant of our struggle. It is a fitting tribute to the selflessness of the generation of the 1980s.

This debate takes place during the year declared by our movement as the year of Oliver Reginald Tambo. This enjoins us to remind ourselves of the fundamental values that Oliver Tambo and his generation lived and died for, in pursuance of the liberation we are enjoying today.

In one of their seminal writings on Oliver Reginald Tambo, Nadine Hack and Jerry Dunfey had this to say, and I quote:

When we think of O R, what comes to mind is the most gentle soul, with the most tiger-like spirit; the kindest heart, with the fiercest determination; the most compassionate nature, with the strongest moral compass; the warmest, sweetest personality, with an unhitching dedication to honesty; the most loving, peaceful

temperament, with the sharpest sense of conscience; the most beautiful smile, with a resolve to accept only absolute integrity; the most noble, patient, calm presence, with the most tenacious fervour for bold, uncompromising action; and the most brilliant intellect, with the most earnest, sincere appreciation for the simplest contribution.

We gather here two days after Statistics South Africa has published the poverty statistics in South Africa, which has once more highlighted how women and children of our country continue to be the hardest hit by the scourge of poverty. MEC Zikalala elaborated largely on this matter. As we listened to our people over the last four days, narrating their joys and sorrows of life, nothing more can be said than to proclaim that our will and capacity to push back the frontiers of underdevelopment, disease, poverty and unemployment become more compelling. This is the mission of Parliament, as the tribune of the people.

Comrade Premier,


Setjhaba se ile sa bua mona, se lla se re bolella hore ho na le tlhokahalo ya mosebetsi. Ba re ho na le diphephetso ka a mang a marangrang a tsa bophelo. Ba llile ka nako e telele ka lebaka la hore ho na le tshallomorao e kgolo.


We still have a huge backlog regarding social transformation, particularly in health and education. That remains a glaring question in South Africa and it reflects the work of government ...


... hore na re lokela ke ho etsang; empa hape, ba ile ba babatsa moo mosebetsi e leng o tswileng matsoho teng. Ba bang ba baahi ba metse ba ile ba re bolella hore ba thabela ntho e le nngwe ya hore meriana e dula ele teng dikliniking, feela, leha meriana e dula e le teng dikliniking empa ho se ho ena le tse ding tse haellang ka lebaka la kgolo ya setjhaba. Re lokela ho eketsa marangrang a dikliniki tseo.

Ba boetse hape ba re bolella hore ba batla re sebetse ka lebelo le batlang le potlakile haholo e le hore re tle re etse diphetoho dintlheng tsena.


As a governing party, entrusted by the overwhelming majority of our people for a better life for all, the ANC cannot act like any other political party in response to these challenges facing our people. We must be guided by the courage of conviction, to admit the realities confronting our people and the fault lines in our own system of governance. We must tell no lies and claim no easy victories, as Amilcar Cabral would say. So, we really need to deal with these issues and attend to them with the urgency they deserve.

This is more compelling as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the late O R Tambo. Amongst the defining values of the legacy of Oliver Tambo is to tell the truth, even if it coincides with the enemy. The task of the opposition in any political system is to shout and scream the loudest. Well, they have done that. The mistake we should avoid is to allow

their screaming and shouting to define the content and pace of transformation.

The ANC and the people of South Africa remain with the mandate to lead the people of South Africa unashamedly. We should not compromise with that task. [Applause.]

Only our people should be the decisive factor in defining the agenda and the pace of transformation because they have given us the mandate. In the same vein, we should avoid the danger of inaction to change the lives of our people, simply because the opposition is shouting the loudest.

In the war against poverty, unemployment, diseases and underdevelopment, only our people should be the compass to point out the direction, the forests and caves for us to hide in times of hazards of the revolution. This is the only fitting way in which to honour Oliver Tambo, Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Govan Mbeki and their generation.

As ANC, we enter this debate humbled by the sorrows and joys of our people articulated over the last four days. Amongst the

fundamental questions that this debate should respond to is how our people are going to be involved, as government will be addressing their challenges between now and the report back session.

This is the greatest test of success of the programme of Taking Parliament to the People, which calls on the NCOP and the Free State Legislature to seize the moment and rise to the occasion to ensure that our people are the architects of their own future. In this, our people should reclaim the battle cry, “Nothing for us without us” - the fundamental attribute of a people-centred and people-driven development agenda - as articulated in the Freedom Charter.

Without turning the economy of this province around to realise real growth in terms of employment and investment, we cannot address the challenges of poverty, diseases and underdevelopment. As the current data on the state of the economy of South Africa points out, the Free State is the second poorest province in South Africa followed by the Northern Cape, despite its strategic geographic location at the centre of South Africa.

The ANC is not found wanting in terms of policies. Our policies represent the international best practice as articulated in our long-term developmental vision. The National Development Plan attaches high premium on healthy nation as a catalyst for economic growth. This imposes the task of turning our public health facilities into centres of excellence, in line with the World Health Organisation standards.

Many industries that used to be critical sources of employment in Botshabelo, Thaba Nchu and Qwa-qwa have closed down and some small businesses that used to be supported by the Free State Development Corporation have collapsed. Hon premier, whilst this, in real economic terms, constitutes a small fraction of the economy of the Free State compared to the agriculture, mining and petrochemical sectors, if we are not able to turn the tide in this small front, clearly, we really need to do more in terms of these issues.

Our trajectory of a democratic developmental state places the state-owned enterprises at the cutting edge of a radical economic transformation. The reindustrialisation of the areas

I have mentioned earlier requires a robust, targeted and integrated approach of the state-owned enterprises. This is particularly so in relation to the manufacturing sector that used to be at the centre of industrial activities here in Botshabelo and Thaba Nchu.

The point we arguing here, Deputy President, is that we need a strong manufacturing sector. We need to be in keeping with the technological advances in the world. We need to invest in bigger machinery and this will help us to absorb large numbers of people that will work in these areas.

We do note with a great sense of appreciation a number of high-level economic interventions by government, as part of the radical socioeconomic transformation. Critical amongst these is the 100 Industrialist Programme of the Department of Trade and Industry and the Industrial Development Corporation. These programes have the significance of placing blacks at the centre of the mainstream of the economy of South Africa.

On behalf of the masses assembled here today, will it be a burden to humbly request that the former industrial areas of

Botshabelo, Thaba Nchu and Qwa-qwa become the strategic focus of this reindustrialisation?

I am not raising this in a narrow context of provincialism but within the broader context of the narrative that has gained currency in the public discourse, that big projects in this country are directed to already affluent provinces. It is quite important that we take decisive action and make interventions, given the prevalence of poverty and unemployment, particularly in the areas Thaba Nchu, Qwa-qwa and the rest of the areas in the province.

In modern politics, perception occupies another level of reality and can influence and shape the attitude and behaviour of the people. It is against this background that the ANC resolves to deal decisively with corruption, wastage and theft of public resources whenever it arises.

The criminal justice system is rated as one of the best in the world, based on the supremacy of the Constitution. Many cases of alleged corruption are currently before the criminal justice system. However, we must be worried about the emerging

culture of politicising corruption and theft by some who seek to give a verdict on the allegations of corruption, even before the courts pronounce on such cases.

These are forces that project themselves as paragons of justice and constitutionalism, more than anybody in this country. According to newspaper reports, the deputy executive mayor of one of the metropolitan councils governed by the anti-ANC coalition is embroiled in serious allegations of corruption. There are anti-ANC coalitions. To us, as the ANC,
these are allegations until they are tested in a court of law.

In the Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte, Karl Marx reminds us, and I quote: Men makes their own history; they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self- selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.

We cannot be complacent to the reality that our people are getting impatient. They wait, with a great sense, for decisive leadership, action and with a sense of urgency on leaders to attend to these challenges in partnership with the state-owned

enterprises and other national departments. It is our view that state-owned enterprises should refocus their energy on making a contribution to the economic development in a major way in the country, to ensure that our economy grows for the better.

Deputy President, ...


Ha ke phethela ke re setjhabeng sena sa mona Freistata, ha re sebetseng ka thata e le hore re tle re fihlelle dintho tsena kaofela tseo re buileng ka tsona mona.


All of us know that only the ANC is capable of leading the people of South Africa. Thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we had the pleasure to have sat with young people from Hohle Intermediate School, a combined school. I think they have left now, but we thank them for gracing us with their presence earlier on.


MOTLATSA MOPORESIDENTE: Modulasetulo wa Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi, ntate Tau eo e leng Motlatsa modulasetulo, Tonakgolo ya rona, ntate Ace Magashule ya etelletseng puso ya African National Congress porofensing ena ya Foreisetata, Ditho tsa Lekgotla la Phethahatso tse hlahang diporofensing tse ding, baemedi ba Lekgotla la Mmuso wa Selehae la Aforika Borwa, Salga, mme Mamiki e leng Sepikara sa porofensi ya Foreisetata le Maloko oohle a Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi, NCOP, ke rata ho leboha dipuisano tsena tseo re ntseng re di tshwere mona. Hantlehantle, Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi le tlile mona, e seng haholo hore re tlo buisana pakeng tsa rona empa e tlile mona hore e tlo tla ikutlwela hore batho ba Foreisetata, haholoholo batho ba dibaka tseo maloko a Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi a tsamaileng teng hore bar eng ka mosebetsi o etswang ke mmuso.

Re leboha haholo ho fumana monyetla ona wa hore re kopane le setjhaba sa mona Foreisetata, re utlwe hore setjhaba se tletleba ka dife le tse ba thabisang ke dife. Re ka re re le utlwile hore le reng mme le lona le utlwile hore Maloko a

Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi a neng a fumane sebaka sa ho bua mona, ba itseng.

Ke emela hore ke lebohe boetapele ba Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi le Maloko a lona hore ba iphile nako ya ho tla mona Foreisetata. Selemong se fetileng ke ile ka ya kopanong ya bona Kapa Botjhabela empa nka tjho kajeno lena hore kgetlong lena, kopano ena ya Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi, e ntle ho feta eo nkileng ka ya ho yona. [Mahofi.] E ntle hobane e ntlafatswa, e seng ke Maloko a Lekgotla la Naha la Diporofensi, empa ke lona batho ba mona Foreisetata. Re leboha ho tla ha lona mona le tlo tla ikutlwela hore Maloko a Palamente a ntse a reng. Le ikutlwetse ka bolona, ba bang ba ile ba bua ka bokgabane, ba bang ba ne ba ipuela tsa bona, ba pota, empa le ikutlwetse. [Ditsheho.] [Mahofi.]

Ntho e nthabisang le ho feta, ke hore re utlwile diporofensi kaofela di hlalosa mesebetsi eo ba e etsang diporofensing tsa bona.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy President, I have a member on the floor. Please take your seat. Hon Julius, you’re rising on a point of order?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What’s your point of order?

Mr J W W JULIUS: I just want to know whether it is parliamentary for the Deputy President to say that other members are talking nonsense or rubbish. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, the hon Deputy President said:


Le ikutlwetse hore bar eng, ba bang ba ne ba bua tjena, ba bang le haeba ba ne ba pota.


Yes, I was also listening ... le haeba [Even though] ... but I will grant it to you. Deputy President, please don’t say the

members of the NCOP ... haeba o tjholo jwalo [if you said that]. [Ditsheho.]


MOTLATSA MOPORESIDENTE: O ntshwarele, ke kgutlisa mantswe a ka. [Ditsheho.] Ntho e nthabisitseng le ho feta, ke hore re utlwile Tonakgolo ya rona mona, ntate Magashule, a hlalosa ka botlalo dintho tse etswang mona ke mmuso wa Foreisetata, haholoholo ho tsena tsa bophelo bo botle. O ile a hlalosa hantle hore mmuso wa rona mona, o rometse batjha dinaheng tse kantle haholoholo Cuba hore ba ilo ithutela bongaka. Ba rometse batjha ba 201. Nka le hlalosetsa jwaloka baahi ba Foreisetata hore ke ile ka etela batjha bana mane Cuba. Ho na le batjha ba fihlang diketeng tse tharo ba hlahang mona Aforika Borwa. Foreisetata ke yona e rometseng ba bangata ka hobane ba ikemiseditse hore bana bana ba rutwe bongaka hore ba kgutlele mona ho tlo tla le sebeletsa.

E nthabisitse haholo taba ena e hlalositsweng ke Tonakgolo ya rona hore kannete mmuso wa Foreisetata ho tsena tsa bophelo bo botle, o ikemiseditse hore mathata a teng ka Lefapheng la Bophelo bo Botle, bat la a rarolla kannete hobane ba rometse

bana ho ithutela bongaka. O itse o ilo hira baoki, le mo utlwile le lona nakong eo a neng a bua mona hore o re o na le mangolo a kopo ya mosebetsi a baoki bao a tlo tla ba fumantsha mosebetsi hore bophelo bo botle ba lona bo tswelle pele hantle. Ke a mo leboha kahoo ntate Magashule ka tshepiso eo a e behileng mona. [Mahofi.]

Re ikutlwetse ka ditsebe tsa rona ha diporofensi tse ding di hlalosa hantle hore tsona di ntse di etsang nthong tsena tse ngata tseo re tlamehileng hore re di lokise mona Aforika Borwa. Porofensi e nngwe le e nngwe e ile ya hlalosa ka botlalo seo ba se etsang. Ke ile ka fumana hore ha o shebisisa hantle, kannete diporofensi tsa rona kaofela di ntse di sebetsa ka matla ho etsa hore maphelo a batho ba rona a atlehe, a tswelepele ka tsela eo ANC e ileng ya re e batla a ye pele ka yona. Mokgatlo ona wa setjhaba, ANC, ntho eo o ikemiseditseng yona ke hore batho ba heso ba fumane bophelo bo betere. Bophelo bo fetang ba bane bao re neng re phela ka tlasa bona nakong ya kgatello ya maburu, kgatello ya apartheid. ANC e ikemiseditse. . .


... to improve the lives of our people. And it was quite pleasing to hear the provinces of our country relating the various steps that are being taken in all the provinces.
Member of the Executive Council Zikalala outlined the steps that are being taken in KwaZulu-Natal to make sure that we improve the lives of our people.

Some of us, who have had the privilege of travelling and witnessing some of the programmes that our province has embarked upon, bear testimony to the great work that is being done in KwaZulu-Natal. They have embarked on a major project that is very inspirational, called Sukuma Sakhe, which we have used in national government as a model of how we can improve the lives of our people. It has been used effectively, particularly in an area that I am closely involved in as Deputy President, which is how to fight HIV and Aids.

Member of the Executive Council Zikalala also spoke quite strongly about the issue of the land in that the land is most important and that our people want the land to be brought back so that our people can be given the opportunity to work the land, and that the land must be returned without fail.

We also heard what Limpopo is doing in relation to the progress that we have achieved in Limpopo over the past 20 years – how they have reduced the maternal mortality rate, and how they have been making strides in TB treatment and that was most pleasing to hear.

Gauteng Member of the Executive Council Mashatile also outlined how they were dealing with the key challenges that our country faced in relation to the economy and how Gauteng was being transformed into being the real economic hub that was going to benefit our people in a broader way.

Member of the Executive Council Shongwe spoke most directly about the efforts that they are making to bring young people into farming - into working the land in line with the policy of our movement. Member of the Executive Council Maluleke also spoke about what we are doing in the North West province.

Now, uBaba Khawula then spoke in a mournful way about a number of things, which I found most disappointing. Also, the hon Julius spoke in a most predictable way. I could have been

sitting here with my ears closed and I would have known what he said.

In the Northern Cape, we have made great progress as well, and we continue to make progress. Member of the Executive Council Botes said that we needed to proclaim very loudly what we were doing. And, indeed, this is where we are in that our country has made progress. We have made tremendous progress over the past 20 years. It is this progress that we are very proud to speak about, because in these 20 years we have indeed improved the lives of our people. Whether people like to admit it or not, we have improved the lives of our people. [Applause.]

South Africa has moved forward. The South Africa that we live in today, under the leadership of the ANC, is not the South Africa that we had prior to 1994. [Applause.] And, if some members, indeed from the other parties like the DA, do not believe it, all they need to do is to listen to the voices of our people, to the voices of those who continue to benefit from what the government of the Republic of South Africa is doing under the leadership of the ANC: our old people get their pensions; children in our country get social grants; we

have built clinics; we have built hospitals; we have returned many of our young people to school and university; and the economy has created more than 8 million jobs since 1994. And, the important thing is that this government is equal to the task of addressing some of the challenges that we are facing right now. We will address those challenges. We will create jobs. We will improve the lives of our people without fail.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, there is a point of order. Ms Mokwele, you are on your feet.


Mme T J MOKWELE: Puso ya gona jaanong, Modulasetilo, e e leng ka fa tlase ga Jakob Zuma, ga e dire sepe ... [Tsenoganong.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. That is not a point of order. Please continue, Sir.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The process of radically changing the economy of our country, the process of empowering our people, the process of returning the land ...

Ms C LABUSCHGNE: Chair, a point of order, please.


Ms C LABUSCHGNE: Chair, I rise on a point of order: Rule 45, as printed on the speakers’ list, in so far as time has not been allocated: time has been allocated to the hon Deputy President of 10 minutes. His time has expired. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Labuschagne. Order, members! Hon members, you would remember that last year in Buffalo City that this matter also came up when the President was concluding the debate. At that time a point of order was raised and we actually did point out that, one, the presiding officers do have the discretion; and, two, that, in fact, there is an exception to this rule. I’m sure the hon member is aware of it. It is in the Rules ... [Interjections.] Hon Labuschagne, I am speaking. It says that the time of the President or the Deputy President will not be limited. It then makes sense for us as presiding officers, when we compile the lists, to allocate times because that

gives us an estimation of where we are. However, we do then use our discretion to allow for the conclusion to the debate. Hon members, I do this very regularly especially when it comes to special delegates and MECs when they come from outside to the NCOP in order to enable them to conclude their matters.
Today, I didn’t do that, because I cut several MECs’ times. But we usually allow MECs – especially in matters which are of provincial interest – for them to conclude, because, as presiding officers, we also have this discretion. Even if I did not use that discretion today, we set a precedent last year in Buffalo City when we allowed the President to conclude. Please conclude, Deputy President. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Madam Chair. As I conclude, I do want it to be very clear that the process of radically changing our country when it comes to the economy and when it comes to improving the lives of our people will proceed without fail. That is a mandate that we have as the ANC, and we are determined to proceed with it whether people like it or not. That is going to continue. [Applause.] This will manifest itself through a process of inclusivity and through a process of massification. We have reached a stage now where the

urgency of our situation is so great that we need to massify the efforts that we will embark upon. So, I would like it to be known that the efforts – the interventions – that we will embark upon will be huge, because we not only have to redress the imbalances of the past, but we also have to improve the lives of our people in a demonstrable way. This we commit ourselves to.

I would like to thank the people of Botshabelo for being part of this debate and discussion, and also for having given us the information that we have gleaned in relation to their lives and the challenges that they face. But, having heard all this, the commitment from the government is that we are going to address them.

As you heard our premier:


Re tla kgutla hape ka Mphalane re tlo beha tlaleho ya rona na ebe ditletlebo tsena tsa lona re tla be re di lokisitse jwang. Le mo utlwile hantle Tonakgolo nakong eo a neng a bua mona. Re lebohile haholo ka boteng ba lona mona. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, thank you for coming. Hon members ... Order! Order! Hon members, this concludes the business of the day. Hon members are requested to remain standing while the procession leaves the House. This House is adjourned.
Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 13:01.