Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 23 Aug 2016

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

 

TUESDAY, 23 AUGUST 2016
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 10:20.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to
observer a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

A matter with regard to the first question has been brought to my
attention that the Chief Whip is still ascertaining some aspect with
regard to the first question; therefore we would not proceed now
with the first question but later on for the purposes of us not
stalling the process that we rather proceed with the following
question, which is on education. Therefore, we will comeback later,
probably in the afternoon regarding the first question once the
matter has been concluded by the Chief Whip. Therefore, hon members
may I take the opportunity to allow ... [Interjections.] is there
something else?

Okay, a matter has brought to my attention that it is not only the
first questions but all questions relating to the Ministry of Arts

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and Culture - that would therefore be concluded in a proper response
and will be provided today. Yes hon member.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, can you maybe inform us as to what
is the problem because there was no problem in the Whip‘s meeting or
the programming meeting is the Minister not available at this stage
or what is the problem so that the House we should know! Because the
Order of the Day is the Order of the Day and this is the Paper. May
be we should know what is the real problem here.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chair, it is okay, we are not opening a
debate but there are a number of processes in Parliament that are
running concurrently; some of them called Cabinet clusters and are
also meeting today at the same time as we are here. So it is a
matter of how we will be co-ordinating them. That is the information
that I have.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon member
... [Interjections.] I thought the matter was raised by the Chief
Whip of the Western Cape?

Mr W F FABER: Chair, my feeling is just that surely committee
meetings cannot take preference on a House sitting on Questions. I
really can‘t believe that it can take preference to the NCOP! This
is a House of Parliament. This House must be respected; and I
believe that Ministers should respect it like that. We have got hon

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Ministers here and I am sure as he was also one of our previous
members in this Council - this House must be respected. And I really
take cognisance of the fact that the Minister is at some meeting but
it is really unacceptable.

I cannot see that the Minister can go to a portfolio committee
meeting and see that as more important than the sitting of this
House! We go to select committee meetings where Ministers go to
other portfolio committee meetings and neglect the select committees
but they can really not neglect the NCOP like that; and take it for
granted and not coming to our sittings. I just wanted to raise that
this is not acceptable to me from the Northern Cape Province.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, it is for that
reason that I did not want to open this matter for further
discussions and allow processes as has been reported so that when we
get a proper response that would then be presented later this
afternoon. We shouldn‘t be prejudiced by what you are saying now.
So, can we just conclude by saying that the Chief Whip of the
Western Cape raised the issue and the Chief Whip of the NCOP
responded to the matter; and she is comfortable with the response
that has been given. Until then, shall we be able to entertain any
other matter that we might be uncomfortable with.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

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SOCIAL SERVICES
Cluster 2A

Security of schools in Vuwani

68. Ms T K Mampuru (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of Basic
education:

(a) What are the plans to secure school buildings in Vuwani from
criminal elements after an agreement was reached between the
Government and Traditional Leadership to lift the shutdown and
allow schools to reopen from 4 August 2016 and (b) how will the
students be assisted to catch up on their school work?

CO252E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, hon members,
perhaps I should also indicate that the Deputy Minister for Basic
Education was also to be in a subcommittee of Cabinet right now. The
Minister of Health has two items that he is presenting hence I made
him the request that his questions stands over until education. So
the executive does indeed take the responsibility of taking both
Houses of Parliament very seriously, and I cannot explain on behalf
the Minister of Arts and Culture, but I know that he is also a
member of the same subcommittee meeting which I was supposed to
attend.

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Thank you very much for raising this very important question in
relation to Vuwani. It is important for us to understand that never
in the history of our democracy or country that our schools had ever
been subjected to such violence as we have witnessed the destruction
of properties, particularly schools which represent the destiny and
future of our children. This cannot be condoned. It is something
that we all find repugnant and we certainly cannot condone it under
any circumstances.

We are, indeed grateful for the incredible contribution that has
been made by various stakeholders, including the Department of Basic
Education. The Minister had been in Vuwani not less than five times,
and there were dedicated officials in the department of education
who almost camped there in order to ensure that they bring about
stability in the environment. The department of education in Limpopo
has done a wonderful work; and all stakeholders were consulted to
ensure that we create an environment where there is an environment
of safety or where learning can take place in the environment that
is conducive to learning.

This would mean consulting with the traditional leaders and we thank
Inkosi Livhuwani Matsila for his contribution speaking again even
with those who were opposed to the demarcation – the Pro-Makhado
group; and speaking to the communities, governing bodies,
associations, pastors forum, and various other forums, which were

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responsible for the wellbeing of citizens and our learners in our
schools.

I also want to indicate that this particular district has done
exceptionally well in the past in the Limpopo province. Everybody
must have heard of Mbilwi Secondary School, which is no less than
20km from there. This school, for example, produces not less than
100 distinctions in Maths and Science annually. It is about the best
performing schools in the area. So, for no fault of the learners,
the learner will perform extremely well and it‘s a district that
performs at the highest level. And we are now confronted with the
reality of the destruction of our schools. What is it that we should
do? We are of the view that in order to ensure that we create the
safety environment for our learners, it is important that the
community takes the ownership of the schools, hence there was this
intensive discussion and engagement with communities and
stakeholders, religious leaders, traditional leaders, members of the
community, governing body associations, and the private sector to
ensure that they mobilise all resources in order to ensure that our
schools are protected

There are some variable stories that emerge from this;
notwithstanding the ones on the destruction of property. For
example, members of the community have taken it upon themselves to
protect the property. They voluntarily slept at schools to ensure
that they protect and safeguard these institutions of learning.

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Indeed, I think it is important for us to recognise the important
role that the community has played in order to restore learning and
teaching to where it is now.

We also would like to use this opportunity to express our gratitude
to educators who had gone an extra mile to ensure that they too
contribute to the wellbeing of our learners in our schools.

With regard to the second part of the question, which is; what steps
have been taken in order to ensure that we assist learners? The
Department of Basic Education together with the Department of
Education in Limpopo will ensure that we create and opportunity for
our Grade 12 learners. There were three camps that were set up and
all learners attended the camps. And interestingly, the time for
departure that had been arranged was 10:00 and at 06:00 in the
morning each learner was present and they attended the camps and
they stayed there for the entire duration, all of them found it to
be truly beneficial and useful.

So, that is with regard to the Grade 12 learners, and indeed with
the imminent vacations that are coming through, there will be
another camp to ensure that they use the opportunity optimally to
basically cover up on the work that has been lost in order to
enhance the opportunities of passing at the end of the year.

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In relation to Grades R to Grade 11 there is a national strategic
plan that has been developed in consultation with the department of
education in Limpopo and indeed the MEC for education, officials,
acting superintendent general and the officials of the department of
education in Limpopo must be commended for the support they have
given to this particular district.

The plan involves particularly learners from Grades 4 to Grade 11 to
ensure that they are able to cover up the work that has been lost.
That would mean not to do all the areas comprehensively but to look
at the co-elements within the curriculum to ensure that those are
addressed. In that way then, they would be able to cover up, and
certainly from the commitment that we saw amongst the learners there
is a positive indication that they will succeed. What is also
important is also to assist the ability of the learners as they
engage in covering the curriculums, that is, learners are assessed
each week.

Now, this experience that they had was quite a traumatic experience
and what the department had done is that they worked closely with
the department of health and the department of social development;
with social development to particularly ensure that the appropriate
counselling takes place so that the learners are mentally geared
towards this new initiative.

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The feedback that we receive almost on a daily basis indicate a very
positive mood on the part of the learners who are certainly intent
on catching up and doing the best as well as the community that;
notwithstanding their grievances have taken to ensure that learners
are at school. The good news is that certainly the community is
behind this particular initiative. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been
informed that in the absence of hon Mampuru, hon Nthebe have been
given the responsibility to take up ... [Interjections.] Is that a
point of order?

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, I want to find out from
you, Chair, in terms of guiding us. There are three related
questions and now from what I have heard the Deputy Minister has
responded to all three of them in one. Can we, maybe if my other
colleagues concur with me take it that all the questions have been
responded to, but then the Chairperson would give those of us who
had asked the questions preference in terms of the follow-up
questions?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is typical of the Deputy
Minister. There is a proposal to the House that we deal with the
questions as responded to by the Deputy Minister, are we agreed?
Because I don‘t want a situation where we are now going to debate
the order of the day, are we agreed? Okay, fine.

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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on a point of order, nobody agreed
that three questions can be done in one then the question office
should refer this back to the various people and say that these are
three questions that are more or less the same and you have to
priorities and put that on the question paper because we at the DA
received feedback from the questions‘ office to say that we have to
prioritise on certain questions. Now, if that is so; we want 16
follow-up questions to allow each party to do the follow-up as it
is. That is the only way otherwise the questions should be handled
as per question, otherwise it should have not been on the Order
Paper on the question paper.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, there is an
objection to that, and it terms of the Rules may we just proceed as
matters appear on the Order Paper.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, we also want to send
our gratitude to all the stakeholders in Vuwani for ensuring that
there is cessation of hostilities. In terms of the development that
we saw, the collapse of the infrastructure and it is quite true that
it is one of the best performing schools located in such an area.
Can you expand on the current plans that the department has, in
terms of assisting them to get to the situation where we can see
them performing well; what are the plans in terms of all the
stakeholders involved in terms of maintaining the future
infrastructure?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you for the follow-up
questions, as indicated the plans with regard to teaching and
learning are the following: and perhaps to elaborate so that I could
basically give more details the camps that were arranged for the
Grade 12 learners were the Tivumbeni, Makhado and Mastec. These were
the three sites that were allocated, and the sites were allocated
where the learners were taken to these particular camps, supported
by educators and subject advisors. In other words, not only the
teachers who taught them there but there were also subject advisors;
there was the department of health and social development who were
available to support and assist the learners during that period and
what we have is certainly is the report of positive feedback.

With regards to Grade 4 and Grade 11 learners, I have indicated
again that this would be partly covering your question as well, hon
member. It simply means that they are going to look at essential
contents so I am not going to elaborate too much because I do feel
that the hon member who is a former principal of a school would
certainly like to hear a little bit about the matter. And finally,
the community and all stakeholders are certainly behind this
particular initiative. Thank you.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, your department
was supposed to take certain measures to prevent criminal elements
to vandalise the schools buildings and hopefully you will prevent it
from happening again. You know you were also rather vague about

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this; can you just maybe give us more information as to whether
there were any of the perpetrators arrested, have they been charged
or what is happening now? And then, Minister, is there any tangible
evident that your interventions are working, is it successful or is
just business as usual for you?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much; I don‘t
think we should approach this issue with some degree of
condescension or arrogance. It is a matter that really goes to the
heart of what education is to provide access to education to our
learners and to ensure that they are able to attend school in a
caring and safe environment.

Now, with the steps that have been taken, obviously what would have
to happen is that we would have to apprehend the criminals who are
responsible for this particular act; and indeed there were two
phases: in the first instance there were a group of about seven or
eight people who were arrested and they have already appeared in
court and the matters are pending; the second instance approximately
six or seven people and were again arrested and again have appeared
in court and the matter is being processed.

I cannot now with regard with regard to the very recent one of the
four classrooms be able to give you information, but what I can tell
you is that charges have been laid, the community has been
approached to assist us in identifying the people; and I believe the

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perpetrators will be arrested. I also believe that they must be
dealt with severely with the full might of the law. We cannot
tolerate this particular situation.

So, Vuwani has this particular special place, you know, you can put
your fences and you can have your police officers but unless the
community takes ownership of that particular institution you are not
going to succeed. What we have seen quite demonstratively and
clearly are that where the community has resolved to look after its
property, indeed it can care tail that. What is the evidence of the
initiative? The evidence of the initiative is notwithstanding the
fact that the fact grievances with regard to demarcation still
persist, our learners are attending schools. Not some of the
learners but all the learners. What is clear in terms of the success
of the success of the event is that when the three camps were set up
all learners attended the camps and no learner returned from the
camps until the camps were completed.

What is clear is that all learners are embarking on a process in
terms of where they can catch up with the curriculum. So, the
evidence is there, we are not magicians. We can only collaborate
with support and certainly invite the community to assist us. And
what I said is that educators, learners, community certainly have
recognised the value and importance of education particularly in the
district that has consistency performed so well over more than two

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decades. We believe that there is a good future in store for these
learners and we are so intent in doing that. Thank you.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chair, may I take this opportunity to welcome
the response of the Deputy Minister on the questions and also to say
that I am also glad that focus has been changed from focusing on the
exit point of learners and concentrating on the entry point. The
Minister indicated that there are strategies and plans put in place.
We appreciate that and have said from the beginning that the doors
of learning shall be opened for all, and indeed we are doing that.
However, my question is: what is the implementation part of it; are
you monitoring the implementation of these strategies and plans that
you have put in place as the department?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, firstly we want
to endorse the sentiment that the doors of learning and culture
should be open, in fact, that is the commitment in the Freedom
Charter and is also embedded and enshrined in the Constitution. What
we indicated earlier in our original response is that in order to
assess how the learners are coping with the more difficult demand we
assess them weekly.

So, there is monitoring and evaluation that is taking place on a
weekly basis and our educators have been very responsive in ensuring
that the reports are being provided and the preliminary reports that

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we receive indicate very positive and clearly that there is a clear
intention on the part of learners to do well.

Indeed we are very hopeful that the essential elements of the
essential parts of the curriculum will be covered given this
particular commitment on the part of educators and learners. We also
have the national education collaboration trust that is supporting
the department in terms of achieving optimal performance on the part
of the learners. Thank you.

Burning/destruction of schools in Vuwani

89.

Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Basic
Education:

In respect of the uprising that led to the burning and
destruction of schools in Vuwani in Limpopo, what arrangements
has her department made to ensure that (a) learners catch up on
the syllabus and learning time is recouped and (b) progression
of learners of all grades is achieved at the end of the year?
CO273E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, thank you
to Mr Khawula for the Question. I apologise for that. Because the
nature of the questions are so similar I was compelled to answer
part of his question when I delivered an answer earlier.

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What I can say is that the catch-up programme is important and has
been carefully designed with the district directors, subject
advisors and the provincial departments of education in
collaboration with the National Department of Basic Education to
ensure that the demands of the curriculum are not so huge or
extraordinary that it is beyond the ability of the learners and
educators to cover the curriculum.

What they did was to identify the essential or key or core elements
within each subject or learning area to ensure that the learners, as
they proceed, are not deprived of that particular knowledge that
they ought to have. That has been the approach.

With regard to the grade 12s – which is the exit point – a
particular opportunity has been created through the camps which
clearly have been successful. That is the view of the learners,
educators and the parents of the learners who have agreed that this
was something very helpful.

There are so many stakeholders who have contributed to the success
of the programme. There are NGOs, the National Education
Collaboration Trust, which is a conglomerate of the private sector
who came forward and said that they are prepared and willing to
assist in many ways. Besides providing resources they are willing to
assist in the areas of teaching and learning and expertise that they
could provide independently. Equal Education Forum ... [Inaudible.]

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... Section 27, have also given us support. The gentleman on my
extreme left is the spokesperson for the Department of Basic
Education, and he should certainly be commended. He spent more than
six weeks in there are just to ensure that everything takes place
according to plan, engaging with the community, stakeholders,
educators, pastors and traditional leaders. I believe that has
yielded positive results.

We are soon going to have spring holiday camps and again we are
going to ensure that our learners from grade four to grade 11 attend
these camps. Obviously the grade 12s will attend the independent
camps.

I am cautiously optimistic that our learners will be able to catch
up with the parts of the curriculum that they missed, more
particularly because of the enthusiasm and the excitement of going
back to school. We believe and hope that this opportunity will be
taken up by the learners. Indeed, the indications are that there are
clear intentions on the part of the learners and the community to
support education within the district. Thank you very much.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, thank you to the Deputy Minister for
giving me the political response. I am now looking for the technical
response. You see, the programme of learning is structured in such a
way that learners in KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape doing the
same subject in the same grade will be doing the same topic at the

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same time. What I wanted to find out is whether the department has
ensured that theory and knowledge is not compromised, like you said,
and whether there is a plan that will allow learners to for catch
up. In other words, will grades 6s at Vuwani be doing the same topic
as grade 6s at other schools?

Secondly, these days the practice of progressing learners does not
start at the end of the year; it starts at the beginning of the
year. We have learnt that some files and materials had been
destroyed. What plans are there to ensure that learners and
educational integrity is not compromised? Is there is a plan in
place to ensure that the progression is of the same quality that
would be found in all other schools across the country? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you Chairperson, Mr
Khawula I will give you the administrative and technical response
that you request. Firstly, with regard to workbooks, these have been
supplied to all learners where they have been destroyed. With regard
to textbooks, all learners have been provided with the necessary
resources. And again, the Department of Education in Limpopo
together with the national department as well as the private
stakeholders have contributed enormously to ensure that the learners
are not prejudiced. With regard to the technical resources that
every learner requires, these have been made available.

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So, the question that you asked is, given the reality that the
curriculum as it has been designed demarcates or delineates areas
that have to be done week after week, and we have lost some time. My
earlier response has been that it would be an unfair, extraordinary
and unreasonable demand to expect learners to cover three months‘
work that they have lost.

By the same token, we should determine the key elements of the work
that the learners missed. When we know what the core elements are,
we do not deal have to deal with those in such great detail. In this
way, the learners will not miss out on the knowledge that they ought
to have.

We certainly support your view. Indeed, it is not only about the
diagnostic assessment or the summative assessment; it is about
continuous assessment. What we have instilled and embedded in the
programme is to ensure that week after week learners are assessed
given the extraordinary nature of this particular initiative.

So, what is happening in the district is universal. Now, all the
affected schools have a particular plan. That plan is being
followed, supported by subject advisors and district managers and,
where necessary, supported by the province. I hope that
administrative, technical, educational and pedagogical response does
assist you, Mr Khawula. Thank you very much.

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Ms Z B NCITHA: Chairperson, let me first add my voice to those of
previous speakers who thanked the community of Vuwani for cooperating with the department to ensure that there is stability in
the area.

Following on what the Minister has said, you know, it is clear that
one can expect anything at any time. I am looking at what they had
to do at Vuwani and I am wondering whether department has plans in
place should the same situation happen in another area. I know that
these things are not budgeted for, but at least we have learnt some
lessons there so that we are not found wanting if such a situation
happens again.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you hon member, I
think the lessons that we have learnt from this are many. Firstly,
there is the importance of ensuring the there is deep and consistent
consultation with all stakeholders. One should not become selective
because schools belong to communities. The pastors, traditional
leaders, members of the governing body and all other stakeholders
are critical in order to ensure that we achieve results.

Secondly, when such an event occurs - God forbid, and we hope it
does not occur anywhere else in the country. Certainly, we hang our
heads in shame as a country and as a nation that our children‘s
destiny and future has been tampered with in such a vile and
repugnant way. But, should it happen, the security agencies must do

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whatever is necessary. Investigation must take place swiftly.
Arrests must take place swiftly and I would argue that prosecutions
must take place even more swiftly. This will send a clear message
that we are not going to condone, accept, allow or permit such kind
of behaviour within our midst. I think that is a second lesson.

Thirdly, is really to maintain a balance. I think what we can be
proud of as a country and as a nation is that we had a situation in
which we could have pointed fingers at the community and said to
them, you folded your arms and you did not do enough to ensure that
your schools or your institutions of learning are protected. Why
should we now divert resources to this community of learners?

Our Constitution gives every learner the right to basic education.
What we saw in the Vuwani is that we would not compromise that
interest. At the heart of what we do and central to our commitment
is the best interest of the child and the learner. I think Vuwani is
a good case of the fulfilment of a constitutional obligation that we
got to have. But, it goes with reciprocal responsibility. The
responsibility is that recognising that these are the challenges.
Communities cannot be complacent and say, well, it is the
responsibility of the government. They must be proactive and when
they become proactive the result is what we are seeing now since the
beginning of August: a commitment by the learners and community to
ensure that quality learning and teaching takes place. Thank you
very much.

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Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, you will wonder why I am
repeatedly standing up. I am standing because this subject is very
close to my heart. When I started my career, I started as a teacher
because I did not have many options when I grew up. The only way was
to become a teacher, a police officer or a nurse because of certain
systems that were in place that denied us the opportunities to
venture into other fields.

I welcome the response of the Deputy Minister. I am also mindful of
the fact that stakeholders maximally participated in ensuring that
quality education is delivered to learners. But, Deputy Minister,
you would acknowledge the fact that, every time when we speak about
stakeholders ... there is an important stakeholder ... they are all
important: traditional leaders, parents, school governing bodies and
every body. However, there is labour that must be rendered. I am
just wondering with regard to extra effort and extra whatever in
terms of your plans and strategies. Are there incentives available
for educators who will go the extra mile, or are our educators doing
their jobs in the spirit of volunteerism? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much hon
member. Do you know that at the heart of a sound system of quality
education lie the ability and the commitment of educators to
facilitate learning and teaching? And to do so with the passion and
commitment as you see in Vuwani makes us feel good. Certainly, we
thanked them right from the beginning and we continue to thank them

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for their incredible support and their efforts over here. To be
certain, there has been no discussion. We have spoken to the
stakeholders in all the unions to say this is the plight or
challenge that we have. How do we work? And they collaborated with
us.

There wasn‘t a precondition to the service. In other words, they did
not say they would not attend spring classes unless they got paid.
They recognised the extraordinary event that had taken place. I
think we had a generosity of spirit where people voluntarily want to
do things that are good. Let us not put a price tag on it. If, at
the end of the year, the provincial department wishes to provide an
incentive and the private sector wishes to say, look, we recognise
the value of the work that you have done, we certainly want to
express our gratitude in the following way, the national department
will not stop that. What I do know is that there has been no
negotiation by any of the unions, particularly the major union – the
SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu – to say they will only teach if
they are paid extra. We think that is the proper spirit to have,
particularly given the impact of the destruction of our schools in
Vuwani. But, thank you for raising that. We will keep that in mind
too.

Eradication of Basic Safety Norms backlog

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69. Ms L C Dlamini (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Basic
Education:

(a) What progress has been made by the Accelerated Schools
Infrastructure Delivery Initiative to eradicate the Basic Safety
Norms backlog in schools (details furnished) and (b) when will
the backlog be eradicated?

CO253E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I
just want make sure that it is hon Dlamini‘s question with regard to
the norms? The Accelerated School Infrastructure Development
Initiative, Asidi, was launched a little more than three years ago.
The purpose of the Asidi programme was to ensure that we eliminate
the mud and unsafe structures, particularly structures that are
built of asbestos and corrugated iron.

Those of us from deep rural areas are certainly aware of the fact
that the reality in many of these communities is that they have put
together little resources that they have instead of mud schools in
order for learning and teaching to take place. If you go to the
Eastern Cape, for example, you find this phenomenon which is on a
scale that you won‘t see in other provinces.

Not very long ago, just less than five years ago, we had these
phenomenons in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, parts of the Free State and
the North West - I am talking about the mud schools. We have been

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able to eliminate mud schools in all the provinces except for the
Eastern Cape. The intention of the Asidi programme was to ensure
that: We remove or eradicate mud schools and unsafe schools; and we
provide services of basic needs such as water, electricity and
sanitation.

Where are we now with regard to this? It‘s quite interesting. In the
beginning stages there were difficulties in terms of the execution
of the plan, getting contractors to understand the importance of
this particular issue and the importance of respecting timelines.
Even bigger contractors who are unfamiliar with the terrain in the
Eastern Cape had serious challenges there. We set up a dedicated
task team made up of engineers within the Department of Basic
Education and made sure that they also have a task team within
provinces.

The good news is that in the past 30 months, we have been able to
deliver state-of-the-art schools per week. We are now on 167 stateof-the-art schools and these schools exceed the basic norms. Even if
it‘s a primary school, it has special facilities for grade R
learners in terms the kind of classes and play areas and even
sanitation facilities. It has Information and Communications
Technology, ICT, connectivity, laboratory, sporting amenities and
preparatory areas for nutrition etc.

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We would like the members to go and visit any one these 167 schools,
whether it‘s in the Western Cape, Eastern Cape or anywhere else. The
Western Cape, for example, has been the beneficiary of more than 22
schools that we have provided through the Asidi programme. Each of
those schools are worth not less than R35 million. They are
certainly something that you could say that it‘s a model of a school
that I wouldn‘t mind sending my child to. So, we are certainly
excited about the fact that we have been able to deliver on average
more than a school per week. But challenges persist. We do hope that
in the course of this financial year, we are able to deliver at
least another 50 schools. We want to eliminate the phenomenon of mud
schools.

What we have in the Eastern Cape is quiet an extraordinary
phenomenon. We have hundreds of schools with less than 50 or 60
learners. These schools are not viable, therefore you have to
rationalise, merge and close. It doesn‘t make sense to replace two
mud schools within two kilometres of each other. What you have to do
is merge those two schools and create a state-of-the-art school.

So, we have gone through a consultation process, we have set up a
framework of how we go about it so that rationalisation takes place
in a planned fashion so that we could have these quality schools
within the province. We do hope that as a result of this particular
intervention, we would be able to provide better quality schools.

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With regard to water and sanitation, I must say that we have done
extremely well. We have completed water supply to 596 schools;
sanitation to 418 schools and electrification of 307 schools. I am
reasonably and optimistically confident that by the end of the
financial year, the issues of water, sanitation and electricity
would have been addressed in all schools. Perhaps the biggest
challenge that we face particularly in the Eastern Cape, are issues
of rationalisation, mergers and closures of schools in a very
organised and consultative way.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Before
I allow the hon member to follow up the first question, I want to
apologise to hon Mokoena ... [Inaudible.] ... question that the
Minister should have answered ... [Inaudible.] ... hon Mokoena. But
unfortunately my attention was brought to ... [Inaudible.] ... taken
away for a second. I didn‘t want to stop the Minister. We will come
back to the question. Any follow up hon member Julius? Sorry hon
Julius, just hold it, obviously for purposes of procedure. Hon
Dlamini!

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I have no follow up question.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Deputy Minister, in the 2013-14 financial year,
the Department of Basic Education planned to eradicate 496 mud
schools in our country; and provide water and sanitation to 1257
schools and also electrify 878 by March, 2016. Now, we have passed

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March, 2016 six months ago. Can the Minister explain what happened?
Why didn‘t we meet this target? Will we be able to meet this target?
Do we have a tangible target? Do we actually know what is going on?
How many schools are there and what is the target or will we be able
to meet this target?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I
think the hon member is raising a very important issue. And without
even being invited to do so, I have explained the difficulty that we
have confronted in the early stages. The early stages basically were
the situation where we had contractors... and I will give you a few
examples, we had the department entering into agreements with
contractors for 10 schools. Three of the schools would be built on
time and the other seven are extremely slow.

Now, if you have to determine whether to end the contract, you have
one contract that covers 10 schools. This basically was not on.
Fortunately, the Deputy Minister of Basic Education, who was once a
practising lawyer, together with the former Minister of Finance,
Nhlanhla Nene, and the Deputy Minister of Justice at the time
engaged with the contractors and with the implementing agency and
demanded delivery programmes for every six weeks. The result was
that in the past two and half years, we have been able to deliver
more than 120 schools. That means more than a school per week.

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I do believe that we found a solution with regard to accelerating
delivery. There is now a lull in the Eastern Cape and it is as a
result of the mergers. You know, they had a list of mud schools. You
have mud schools of less than 15 learners in a school. Just two
kilometres away, there is another school. Do you put up another
school there or do you merge the schools? And this is the process
that we are busy with. We haven‘t kept back our programme.

In this financial year, we would still be able to deliver a school
per week. I think that we have improved significantly with regard to
the process. We have indeed missed our target. However, nobody can
argue against the reality that we have been delivering more than a
school per week on average for more than two years and certainly in
the next two years that would be the reality that you would see in
the education landscape.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Minister, the Asidi programme is supposed
to address school backlogs. If I am correct, the department has
engaged the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, to manage the
programme. In other words, funds are transferred to DBSA to pay the
service providers. Now, the question would then be: Are there any
funds in the current financial year for this programme to continue?
And if there are any funds, why service providers are not being paid
their final payments since 2013? You would remember I wrote you a
letter regarding this. What are the reasons? In your answer
Minister; the DBSA said they are waiting for funds from you. So,

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those service providers are really in a major predicament. I have
written to you and you didn‘t even have the decency to answer me why
they are not paid since 2013?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, the issue of
closures - a school can be practically completed and then there is
an amount that is retained for 90 days in order to complete the snag
list. What has happened was that many contractors take the bulk of
the money and do not provide closure reports because the amounts are
so small. What we have decided to do basically as an incentive to
ensure that the closure does indeed take place, is to say,
particularly with regard to professional fees that, we are going to
retain at least 20 percent of the professional fees because once you
do that, there is an incentive for those professionals – the
implementing agents to ensure that closure takes place.

The department cannot pay over to a contractor unless a certificate
of completion is provided. The certificate of completion is provided
when the engineers, quantity surveyors and architects say that in
terms of the standards and the plans, they have duly inspected and
carried out the implementation. If at all the DBSA does not fulfil
its obligations, can you hold the Department of Basic Education
responsible? What we have done with the Minister of Public Works was
to sit with all stakeholders, the Independent Development Trust,
IDT, public works and the DBSA, in order to ensure that payments
takes place timeously, the closures do indeed take place.

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We have to do certain things and they have all agreed that with
regard to professional fees, an amount of 20 percent would be
retained so that that acts as an incentive to ensure that closures
do indeed take place. We apologise for that. But, the DBSA with
regard to the meetings and engagements we have had with them, seem
to be extremely comfortable and very happy with the service they are
receiving from the Department of Public Works. Indeed, the DBSA as
an implementing agency in initial stages had enormous difficulties
but right now, I would certainly describe them as one of the better
performing implementing agency.

In terms of our recent meeting less than two weeks ago, we certainly
have no indication or suggestion of any unhappiness on their part
with regard to closures or receiving of remuneration.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Minister, the Minister of Public Works
informed this House that government was in the process of kickstarting a programme of removing all asbestos in all the government
buildings in the country because of its negative impact on health to
the citizens of our country. I just want to find out two things in
relation to that aspect; has the Department of Education started
that? How far is the development? With regard to the new schools
that you are talking about, do we have any of them that are roofed
in asbestos?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed, what has happened
is, besides the mud schools, in Free State we had 11 schools that
had been completed that were replacing asbestos and unsafe
structures. In Limpopo, all three schools that replaced asbestos
schools have been completed. In Mpumalanga, five schools that were
made of unsafe materials were replaced. In the Western Cape, what we
call the wooden schools phenomenon, where 20 schools have been
replaced over a year. So, that phenomenon is country wide and is
certainly not confined a province.

Gauteng together with the Department of Basic Education has given us
an undertaking that they are going to ensure that they replace all
asbestos schools. Hon member Julius, the issue that you raised with
me has been raised with the Gauteng MEC for Finance and that
commitment and undertaking has been provided. The intention is to
replace unsafe schools.

There is a concern that is being raised now that you might have a
school where 90 percent of it is made of brick and mortar, and
because of the rapid increase of a number of learners, the
department is compelled to have mobile structures. What about those
structures? Now, that is an incremental and progressive thing. We
have to look at those structures that are made up of wood or
asbestos and replace those and progressively also replace those that
are made up of asbestos which are mobile classrooms and put

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permanent structures. And certainly in terms of the provincial
planning, that is happening. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Procurement of mobile classrooms

109. Mr L G Mokoena (Free State: EFF) asked the Minister of Basic
Education:

Whether her department has followed due processes in procuring
mobile classrooms which have been arranged for the areas in
Vuwani where schools were burnt; if not, why not; if so, (a)
what is the name of the company contracted for this and (b) how
much is the cost to her department?

CO294E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, hon Mokoena, you
raise a very important issue. The contractors that were... In terms
of the procurement prescripts, these had taken place properly and
appropriately and I would name them. It is Quick Space, Mathote
Modular Buildings Systems, Fabricants Steel manufactures, FSM, and
African Cabin.

What is quite interesting - and thank God this procurement process
had taken place –is that we had not anticipated what would happen in
Vuwani. So, the procurement process had taken place and these were
indeed obtained in and acquired in terms of due process. When Vuwani
occurred, they were actually diverted from other areas within the

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province to Vuwani because of the urgent and compelling need that is
there. We are more than happy that the prescripts with regard to
procurement have indeed been complied with.

With regard to the cost of the procurement, as I have indicated, the
procurement of all these structures collectively amounted to
R17 678 017,88 million. That is the information that we can provide
to the hon member. Thank you.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Deputy Chair, you know a society becomes
increasingly dissatisfied and disgruntled with government or service
delivery. We are seeing an increase in protest action. That increase
in protest action seems to be affecting the learning environment
more and more. We are almost sure that it will increase or escalate
towards elections. So, what security measures are we putting in
place firstly, to protect these facilities that we are spending so
much money on and secondly, to protect the learning environment and
students, so that we are pre-emptive and proactive in making sure
that they go to school?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I thank the
hon member for raising this very important issue. The decision that
we had to take as a department, supporting the Department of
Education in Limpopo, was whether we should permit learners to go to
school when the environment is unsafe. We are very conscious about
the need to have an environment that is conducive to learning and

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teaching. So, when all stakeholders agreed that it was time for
learners to go back to school and that they would support any
initiative of the Department of Education, a decision was taken, in
consultation with the traditional leaders, the pastors forum, the
educators forum, the teacher unions and all other stakeholders that
the time has arrived.

So, we, at no stage, compromised the safety of the learners. We
waited until we were satisfied that they were ready to go to school.
The indications in the early stages, the very early weeks, were
certainly that all learners are going to school. Everybody seemed to
be excited and happy and the enthusiasm was quite remarkable.

As a system itself, we need to know what to do in order to provide
safety. We have a measure called adopt-a-cop, where schools are
adopted by a police station with a serving police officer for that
particular school. We have managed to cover more than 15 780
schools, as we speak right now, where schools have been adopted by
various police stations. So, that is one measure that we have put in
place where the police officers would provide a real personal
presence within the teaching and learning environment.

The second measure is to ensure that the perimeter fencing is made
available, so that it makes entry more difficult and provides a
measure of protection.

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We do believe that the greatest value would be in mobilising
communities to take ownership of the school. If we don‘t do that, we
are not going to succeed. What we have seen in Vuwani is that the
community took responsibility, notwithstanding the protest or the
political grievances, which they have articulated quite openly and
plainly. They said that they would not allow the education of their
children to be compromised and that the schools belong to them. That
is the best protection that we can provide.

So, really, communities, together with the learners of the schools
must take ownership. Certainly, the learners are fully aware of the
need for protecting the school property to the best of their
ability. Thank you.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, a tender of
R77 million is quite a substantial amount. Can you just indicate to
to his House how many other suppliers also tendered for this need
and what criteria were used to appoint the successful contractor? I
am just concerned that you awarded the tender to one supplier only
and you could have broken it up and give more people a bite of this
cake. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chair, firstly,
the procurement process was not embarked on by the Department of
Basic Education but the Department of Education in Limpopo. As
indicated previously, these procurement processes had already been

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completed. There are four entities that are involved in this
particular process and not only one single entity. The amount
represents the procurement of the structures that was required
across the province.

However, as a result of the urgent and compelling need in Vuwani at
a particular time, these resources were diverted to Vuwani. So,
basically, we had to go through the due processes. We are grateful
that these processes had been completed prior to the incidents in
Vuwani. Otherwise, we would have had real difficulty to provide
these structures that are now in place and utilised by our learners,
timeously and according to due process.

I certainly agree with you that one must provide better and greater
opportunities wherever possible, because one has to look at
empowerment in its broader sense. And there has to be, as the hon
member from the EFF has indicated, due process with the regard
procurement of goods or services. Thank you very much.

Rebuilding of schools

92.

Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Basic
Education:

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(1) Whether her department has any plans to rebuild schools that
are still built with asbestos in Gauteng; if not, why not;
if so, when;

(2) whether these schools will be rebuilt in accordance with the
minimum standards and norms for school infrastructure
policy; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?

CO276E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: It looks like I‘m really
doing a marathon over here. I did the 400 but South Africa has done
extremely well.

Hon Chairperson, Mr Julius raises a very important point and I want
to say he had raised this with me quite privately and indeed I have
had a conversation with the MEC for Education in Gauteng. What the
MEC has indicated is that they have identified 20 schools in the
province; and this is the information we have for replacement and
these are schools that are made of asbestos.

And certainly what we‘ve indicated to the province is that we should
work closely. Wherever there are resources available for the
Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, ASIDI,
programme to replace that we should do so together. The Department
of Education in Gauteng with the National Department are working
closely at this particular reality but the department has indicated

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that they‘ve already have estimates of capital expenditure for the
2016/17 to activate the construction and replacement immediately of
five projects; and the remaining 15 schools appear on the Early
Childhood Education, ECE, and construction will take place in the
period 2017/18. What the Gauteng Department of Education is saying
is that the 20 schools that have been identified will be replaced
within the next two years. Five will be commenced within this
financial year and 15 in the next financial year.

As indicated, wherever we can as the National Department through any
resources that might be available in the ASIDI programme we would be
able to assist. The reason for that is if you have a province that
is not utilising its resources appropriately, the Minister has, in
terms of the Division of the Revenue Act, the ability to divert
those resources to another province.

When we look at Gauteng, Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, or if I put
the cities, Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban in particular, you
notice that the phenomenon of migration affects these provinces in a
very very serious way. And therefore, one has to say at times it is
anticipated but because of the rush from rural to urban and from
province to province, we have to assist provinces wherever possible.
And it‘s for that reason that the Western Cape, for example, has
been the beneficiary of already 20 schools that have been built in
order to also assist the Western Cape Department of Education in

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terms of dealing with the serious crisis of accommodation. That is
my response. Thank you, hon Julius.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you for the response, Deputy Minister. The
list of 20 asbestos schools was given to me in a written question.
Those schools in Gauteng are predominantly are all coloured schools;
existing for many many uears now.

But, two schools from my community are not included on that list of
20 [Interjection.]

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: He made reference to a coloured school. Do we have
such in the country?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can I
not sustain that order! Can you proceed, hon Julius.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I put it in ... did you see it? [Laughter.]

On a serious note, Deputy Minister, these two schools are not
included on the list of the 20 schools and my question was
specifically how many schools are there in Gauteng that are made of
asbestos? And these schools are not included. My worry is whether
other schools are also not included in there? But the major worry is
that - and I also raised with you and I also raise with the
Minister, I raised it with the Premier, the MEC of Education in

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Gauteng - they actually started building a school in my community
that was made of asbestos, they built a brick building right around
it, the asbestos is still inside and we know how dangerous it is.
Because anything can happen with that asbestos; it‘s already damaged
and when it‘s damaged and you inhale that, you won‘t detect it now,
you will get cancer and you‘ll detect it in 30 years or so and
you\ll die within 20 months from now. We know how dangerous it is.
Some people might have died already or busy dying in years to come.

So my questions is, Deputy Minister, will these schools included
there and who will be held accountable for building this brick
building right around that? Who will be held accountable for that?
Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I think
what the hon Julius was saying was that, historically coloured
schools, and I understand that. Because if you look at what we‘ve
done in the Western Cape, the schools were built in historically
coloured areas. If you look at Atlantis, Heideveld, Bellville, these
are historically coloured areas where schools would have not been
provided and were not provided by the Department of Education in the
Western Cape; and we said we have to provide it. But it‘s the best
interest of the learners that makes it the determination.

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If the hon member could provide me with the list of those two
schools then I would certainly take this up with the MEC for
Education and we‘ll see to what extend we can help.

With regard to the phenomenon of brick building around the school,
what happenes at times is you find a construction that is occurring
in the vicinity of an existing site. You have two choices: one is to
close the school completely and start a new project, the other is to
ensure there are safety measures in place while the construction is
taking place, so that the learners are not moved to another
environment. This happens in the Eastern Cape, Gauteng, Free State,
and I think with the phenomenon that is being described - and I will
speak to the hon member after the session here – would probably be
one such phenomenon where teaching and learning are taking place at
the asbestos school whilst the permanent structure is completed.

Once the certificate of completion is issued; you have two
completions, one is a practical completion. When a practical
completion takes place, it means that you can occupy, the school is
safe and learning and teaching can take place. But the certificate
of completion is only issued after the 90 day period where all
snageles are completed, that is when the actual transfer takes place
and the moment that certificate is issued, that is the only time
when you can now destroy the asbestos structure. Because now you
have an existing replacement school or the one that was made of
asbestos.

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If you provide me with the information we could find out what the
snag there is, certainly we have no intention of retaining asbestos
structutres when there is a state of art brick and [Inaudible.]
school. I just think it‘s a technical problem that has to be
addressed. But if the hon member provides me with information we
would be able to assist. Thank you.

Mr D STOCK: Hon Minister, I know that the memorandum of understading
that was signed by the Department of Basic Education and the
Department of Sports and Recreation precisely because of the crosscutting functions between the two departments.

I just wanted to find out, and maybe raise one key imperative from
that memorandum of understanding about the schools‘ sports function
which is partly a responsibility of Sports and Recreation and also
Basic Education.

In the process of rebuilding some of the schools that were
historically build with asbestos, I just wanted to find out from
you, what is the approach that you normally take to ensure that new
schools that you‘re building in the process of demolition of
asbestos schools which approach are you taking? I know there‘s an
issue also of norms and standards of the new schools that are being
build by the department. Does the department take into consideration
the fact that when you build these new schools - which is actually
being in a process by the department - do we take into consideration

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that some of these new schools that you‘re building, the issue of
sports facilities must also become a priority for the department?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, hon member.
Indeed, we cannot but agree with you that it is important that we
look at the full development of the learner, and part of that would
the physical development of the learners to enable the learner to
participate, not only in physical education, but in sport.

All ASIDI schools have sport humanities provided, wherever land is
available. You might have a situation on the other hand where it‘s
in a densely populated area, the land that is available is small you
can‗t have a playing fields that you would like to have. Under those
circumstances one looks at alternatives. But, wherever there is room
for sporting amenities it forms an integral part of the ASIDI
programmes.

With regard to norms, not only have complied with minimum norm and
standards, we have far exceeded. Aas I‘ve indicated, we have water,
sanitation, electricity, Information and Communication Technology,
ICT, libraries, laboratories in each one of the schools, preparation
areas and in many, if not all instances, they have halls. So you
have real wonderful structures which we believe speak to the issue
of inequality and the desire to have equity for all learners and we
do believe that these contribute purposefully and meaningfully to
that.

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Moh T J MOKWELE: Dumela Motlatsatona. Ke a utlwa o bua ka
diporofense tse dingwe tse di nang le dikolo tsa diasebestose, fela
mo puong ya gago ga o bue sepe ka ga Porofense ya Bokone Bophirima.
Kwa Bonajala, Mmasepala wa Selegae wa Moses Kotane, re na le sekolo
se se bidiwang Bonolo Primary se se agilweng ka 1982, le go fitlha
gajaana, se santse se na le asebestose. Re na le Poifo Primary
School, dikolo ka bobedi di kwa Madikwe.

Ke kopa ka tsweetswee gore Motlatsatona fa o dira ditshekatsheko tsa
gago o netefatse gore o akaretsa diporofense tsotlhe. Fa o ka ya kwa
Vryburg, o tlile go fitlhela dikolo tse di agilweng ka asebestose, a
re seka ra tla fano go tla go kgatlhisa ka diporofense tse re itseng
gore go na le sengwe se se diragalang. Go na le diporofense tse di
kwa selegaeng go go tseneletseng, tseo e leng gore ga re di lemoge
sentle. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Minister, you are talking about school that
still have asbestos material, and you are not saying anything about
the North West Province. In Bojanala, Moses Kotane Local
Municipality, there are two schools, both in Madikwe, namely: Bonolo, built in 1982, and Poifo Primary Schools – they both still
have asbestos.

I am humbly asking you to please ensure that you include all
provinces in your surveys. When you go to Vryburg, you will still
find school built with asbestos, hence I have a problem when you

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come here and boost only on the provinces that shows progress and
improvement.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed I am happy you‘re
raising this matter. But where I come from, as you know, and so is
Moses Kotane. If you could provide me with the list of these schools
it would help. Vryburg, I‘m unaware of it, and we have raised it
with the provinces to say please provide us with the list of unsafe
schools so that we could look at our National Planning with you
Provincial Planning.

For the benefit of hon members, what happens is the ASIDI programme
itself is to replace mud schools and unsafe structures.

But then, every province has an Infrastructure Grant. An
Infrastructure Grant is for improvement, for the building of
schools. That is not the ASIDI. In terms of the Division of Revenue
we have a grant.

What we told provinces is important that there is synergy between
what we do and what you do, so that in terms of our planning we have
to look at it accordingly.

I‘m glad you‘re raising these three areas. Just three weeks ago, if
you had been to Ventersdorp, you would have seen a beautiful state
of the art school that was build that services three communities.

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Wonderful hall, the excitement of the community over there and I do
believe that our rural communities are entitled and deserve this
particular kind of infrastructure.

So, if the hon member could please provide me the details of those
schools then we shall deal in discussion with the community. Thank
you very much.

Mr E MAKUE: Hon Deputy Minister, I want to contend that the matter
is matter is more sophisticated than what we may understand. Earlier
this year, the MEC of Education in Gauteng hon Lesufi, requested us
to assist by going out to the schools to check school readiness. I
then observed that in two Model C schools, asbestos came into play.
The one was where they had two classrooms, necessary for the school
because of the numbers - the influx that you‘ve been talking about
of people from other provinces - but the school principal saying to
us that there is no space and all around the school there is
construction going. So, he‘ll either have sacrifice sports fields in
order to build classrooms. That‘s a one level of sophistication.

Deputy Minister, to check with you whether the other level of
sophistication also holds. Where at both schools that we were, the
head masters told us that the School Governing Bodies are putting
pressure on them not to have those structures replaced.

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In the one incident – and this is the last part Chair – the
structure was away from the main building of the school near the
sports field and the head master was saying the School Governing
Body have decided that they will just remove the walls and use the
remaining element of the structure for educational purposes.

Now, I want to test with you Minister, is this a unique problem to
Gauteng or is it something that happens everywhere else as well? And
to assure you that under the leadership of MEC Lesufi, as you have
referred these matters to him, that is a serious search for
solutions so that our children are adversely affected by asbestos.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, I‘m glad that
you‘re raising this matter here because it is extremely complex,
it‘s certainly sets into motion the demand for better planning and
accommodation.

The Gauteng Province, for example, is the largest recipient of
learners who come from other provinces. In any academic year, they
receive not less than 25 000 new learners who have not applied for
registration in the previous year. Which means that now the MEC has
to ensure that he‘s able to accommodate these 25 000 learners. Just
last year, for example, just in terms of Grade 1 and Grade 7, there
were 8 000 learners that had to be accommodated after 20 000
learners had been accommodated.

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And we had to find the solution. And the solution often is to say,
well if there isn‘t physical space in a build classroom can we have
a temporary structure until such time as we‘re able to do so, rather
than denying those learners the opportunity of education. And
fortunately, it‘s a result of working collaboratively with the
Department of Basic Education and other stakeholders including the
Principals Association we were able to accommodate those 8 000
learners.

I do not envy MEC Lesufi because it‘s not a problem that is
addressed in one year and goes away the next. It persists and
therefore it‘s important that we look at the enormity and complexity
of this particular matter.

We have indicated to our provinces, to say let‘s accept the reality
that there is certain migration that is taking place from rural to
urban. Whether you‘re in Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal or the Western Cape.

Let‘s also recognise that we should build in a way that speaks to
that reality so that there should be a move, in terms of planning
better for urban settings because the reality is that this migration
is indeed taking place and therefore the schools in your urban areas
have to be bigger rather than smaller.

Instead of planning for 600 learners in a rural school, which will
have only 400 learners in the next year, you rather plan for a

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school that has 600 learners this year but it‘s going to have 700 in
the next year in an urban centre such as Johannesburg or Cape Town
or Durban for that matter.

In certainly close into perspective, the enormous complex nature of
this particular programme. Then there is the other reality, and I
conclude with this, is that governing bodies often utilise their
status – not all of them but some of them – to gate keep, to prevent
access to learners, to say that the schools are too full, the
language policy doesn‘t allow it, we can‘t permit a temporary
structure; rather than saying let‘s work together to accommodate our
learners. And these are matters that mare being addressed and
indeed, Gauteng has been to the Constitutional Court which has
decided – just quite recently – in a manner which certainly
emphasises the importance of access rather than the elevation of
languages and requirements in terms of access to quality education.
Thank you very much.

Mr W F FABER: If I could just request, Chair, that you can perhaps
just say which question we are going to address next, as we had one
or two questions that came before the others. So, we only listened
to the answer before we could really look at it because it‘s not
been done in order. If we can just request if you could say to which
question we are going so that we don‘t jump to the wrong question
again. Thank you, Chair.

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Was it
a point of order? That‘s not a point of order hon members because
the only problem that we had earlier on was the question related to
hon Mokoena‘s question, for which I apologised to hon Mokoena and he
accepted the apology. It‘s only now that ... is that a new matter
now?

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson. The questions are mixed, if you can
[Inaudible.] responded to, give us the number of [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, can you take your seat please.

We all have the question paper, isn‘t it? Yes. And the question
paper is numbered, isn‘t it so? And then [Interjection.] or I should
help you to read the question paper?

Hon members: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Oh,
okay, I‘ll help you to read the question paper then. That‘s fine,
it‘s a fair request. If you‘re asleep I‘ll wake you up that we‘re
dealing with six-oh-what or whatsoever. No, I‘ll consistently wake
you up.

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That brings us to the conclusion of the question by hon Julius,
question number 90. We have dealt now with question number 90.

Let me assist this process so that we don‘t find ourselves going
back to it. If you can just keep quiet so that I assist the process.
Can I just for a second please. So that we don‘t find ourselves in
the same situation.

Hon members, do you have your question paper in front of you?

Hon members: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Alright.
Hon members, do you have your question papers?

Hon members: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You see
now? There‘s a point of order that will be coming there. Alright,
fine.

We dealt with question 68, question 89, question 109, question 92,
question sixty ... yes by hon Dlamini, now we‘re on question 106 by
hon Terblanche.

Hon Deputy Minister!

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Standard of basic education

106. Mr O S Terblanche (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of
Basic Education:

What measures has her department put in place to ensure that
the standard of basic education in South Africa matches the
amount of money allocated to her department annually?

CO291E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the
question deals with how do we match the amount that we spend on
education with the quality of education? It is a very important
question. What we should understand firstly is that with regard to
the budget that is allocated to the Department of Basic Education is
about 16,5% of the gross domestic product. More than 80% goes
towards the payment of remuneration of teachers. So, we have less
than 20% that is to provide for textbooks, infrastructure, ICT and a
range of resources. So, I think that reality is the first reality
that we must recognise so that we have a shared understanding of
where the money is being spent.

I have already indicated the huge amount that has been spent just on
infrastructure, building a school per week, is quite remarkable. But
what is it that we can say about education? Firstly, I think the
premise on which we should respond to this matter is that we
inherited a very unequal system. Quiet clearly, our white schools

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were much more privilege and better resourced than our black
schools. Quiet clearly, the educators in those schools were much
better qualified for historical reasons than those in the black
schools. Quiet clearly, opportunities that white learners have were
far greater than opportunities that black learners have.

So what we had to deal with was basically address the issues of
equity. And that mean doing many things. So for example, we
recognise that there was a challenge with regard to literacy and
numeracy. And how do we enhance these? We did something quite
unusual, which is not done on skill the way we did it for more than
three years consistently.

We test that each and every learner from Grade 1 to Grade 7 to
ensure that we are able to ascertain what his or her ability is in
terms of literacy and numeracy. That meant that more than seven
million learners were tested on the skills in terms of literacy and
numeracy.

What we have discovered is year after year, there has been an
improvement in the performance and the achievement of our learners,
particularly those in the primary school. We can share with you the
reality that for the first time, we can say that more than 92% of
our learner population, black and white have had at least one year
of preschool learning. And this we have achieved in just 20 years,
quiet remarkable.

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Recognising the challenges that we have in terms of quality
education, we know for a fact that many homes are without books and
that children do not have resources. And every year, we provide more
than 56 million books on literacy and numeracy to each child, black
or white in a historical coloured or indian or white school, it
doesn‘t matter, these are our children.

And certainly for example, the Western Cape has perhaps the best
monitoring system in terms of the use of the workbooks and the
evidence is very clear that this has indeed enhanced performance of
our learners.

Do we see progress? Yes, we do see progress. Just last year for
example, more that 465 000 learners passed their National Senior
Certificate examination. That‘s quite remarkable. Just five years
ago, you would have 80% of the learners who had a bachelor‘s passes
coming from former model C schools at quintile 4 and 5.

Last year, we have more than 65% of the learners who have achieved
bachelor‘s passes and distinctions coming from quintiles 1, 2 and 3
schools. Slowly but surely, regarding the quality of education
across the system, there is an improvement. We certainly have not
achieved excellence, but we certainly moving away from mediocrity.

Now, where are the indicators? The indicators are in terms of your
assessment - annual and national assessment on literacy and numeracy

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and be sure of a positive improvement. They are in terms of teams
and pearls. These are independent test and both teams and pearls
indicate that South Africa is amongst the best performing countries
in terms of improvement in mathematics and science.

But the good news is this that in terms of the preliminary report
that we have received on Sacmec, Southern Africa Consortium for
Monitoring Educational Quality, Sacmeq involves Southern African and
your East African counties. And there are about 20 countries that
participate.

South Africa has for the first time achieved across all grades,
across all provinces in literacy and numeracy above 50%. So, that is
something that we can celebrate as a system that we are indeed
moving away. And again, I emphasise that we haven‘t achieve
excellence but we are moving steadily away from mediocrity.

We see that in the performance of our learners, we see that in the
achievement. We spoke earlier about for one year and we spoke about
Mbilwi. Mbilwi produces 140 distinctions in mathematic and science.
It is the best performer in mathematics and science in the Limpopo
province across all schools. And is a rural school, African learners
and African teachers. So, where there is a will to do well, indeed
you can do well. And therefore, we are paying particular attention
to management and leadership in our schools. So, I would say that

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the journey has just begun. The task is huge, but I think there is
certainly hope and a better future for our learners and we see that.

My colleague, the hon Minister of Higher Education and Training will
tell you that we are the problem for him. We send every year more
and more learners to tertiary institutions and he has the burden of
having to accommodate them and they sing fees must fall that makes
even worse for him. But this clearly is an indication of the reality
that there is improvement year on year. We can just hope that we do
better and better each and every year. And I have a response, which
is one, two, three, four, five, six pages which I am not going to
read, but with your permission I would like to table that the hon
Terblanche could look at it at his leisure. Thank you very much, hon
Chair.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Deputy Minister, thank you for assuring us that
we are making progress. In South Africa, we are spending huge amount
of money obviously to prepare our pupils to be able to perform
properly in the job market. Now quite often, after the completion of
the matric exams, unfortunately Minister, that the opposite is true.

There is a wide consensus or feeling or whatever we want to call it,
especially in the business circles that we are missing the target,
Minister. People are not well prepared and not well equipped to
start in the job market. And my question to you sir is, what is your

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plan to align the education outcomes with job market requirements?
We would like you to start working on that, sir. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, it‘s a very
important and pertinent question that you raised. In fact, it‘s
something that both the hon Minister of Higher Education and the
Minister of Basic Education have been seized with. You will have
notice that we have done something quiet phenomenal in terms of
TVET, Technical Vocational Education and Training systems. We have
been able to grow with by more than 500 000 learners in a matter of
five years or so. Quiet remarkable, because this country definitely
needs intermediate and artisanal skill. We cannot only look at
academic content.

This year, we have introduced the vocational stream in our schools.
And there are more than 1000 schools that are participating. They
have been well trained. I personally attended the training out there
and there is great excitement.

But we are not doing it in one big bang. We are starting with Grade
10. Next year, it will be Grade 10 and 11. The year thereafter, it
will be Grade 10, 11 and 12, which means now in terms of
engineering, in terms of electrical engineering, in terms of
mechanical engineering and technology, opportunities are created
within the school environment. That would ease the burden for the
hon Minister of Higher Education and Training. So that is the one

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element that would speak to that reality so that we don‘t have the
inverted pyramid that we speak about where the bulk of the pupil
should have been in intermediate and artisanal areas rather than in
the academic stream.

In South Africa it‘s the other way round, all of them wants to be in
university, hardly are enough pupils within the intermediate skills.
Better news is that next year we are introducing the occupational.
We have already introduced the vocational. But we are doing it in
such a way that there is no conflict between the programmes of the
hon Minister of Higher Education and Training and the Department of
Basic Education.

And what that does really, it removes again the burden of the hon
Minister having to establish TVET all over the place where technical
schools could in many instances serve that particular purpose.

So, your question is indeed correct, hon member and indeed what we
are doing now is an attempt to align the education system to the
demands of the economy. I hope that assist. Thank you very much,
sir.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Minister, we recognised the growth in the
quality of education as you outlined it. We cannot argue with that
and that‘s indeed a very good thing. I have two things to ask, and
you answered one of them partially by referring to the technical

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schools. But what I would like to know is that what has been put in
place, in terms of policy or plan to curb the dropout rate of
learners across the country, especially in Grade 9? You have
answered the other question. There is also that very few people
realise there was in the past a very big dropout in Grade 1,
something that has been curbed by the one year of free schooling, as
you indicated. But what do we do to curb the impact of the dropout
rate, especially in Grade 9 and also the limited opportunities for
learners whose passion and skills are more technically inclined than
academically? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, I have partially
responded to part of it saying that for those who are more
technically oriented, you have the opportunity, we have created a
second stream. And next year there will be a third stream. So, you
would have the academic stream, your vocational stream and your
occupational stream in our schools. And I think that would deal with
the matter.

Indeed, what you are raising is a matter of great concern for us
because what we have achieved is universal access and enrolment from
almost universal from Grade 1 to Grade 9. The problem really starts
in the FET, Further Education and Training band. This is where the
dropouts occur. So, one way of addressing it is to really create
other avenues and opportunities. TVET colleges are indeed one
opportunity; technical school is another. If you pass Grade 9, you

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entitled to go to TVET colleges. Your technical schools will allow
that steaming to take place.

But I think the secret also lies in the improvement of the quality
of our education, which means that you would find that the progress
in our primary schools has been remarkable. Foundation Phase is
excellent, Intermediate Phase is good, but where your weak point in
your system of education is, is in your Senior Phase. That‘s your
Grades 7, 8 and 9, particularly your Grades 8 and 9.

And what seems to be the phenomenon in many schools is that they
have the best teachers, teaching subjects for Grades 10, 11 and
12.and the weakest teachers teaching in the Senior Phase of school,
which means that when the learner goes to Grade 10, he or she is not
adequately equipped because the facilitator of learning does not
have the appropriate competences in skills.

And the Department of Basic Education has pay particular attention
to this phase. All the provinces have basically developed a
programme with regard to enhancing the skills of educators in those
particular areas so that they would serve the better interest of our
learners because when learners are more confident and they are more
skill then certainly the journey in the FET band, that‘s Grade 10,
11 and 12 becomes much easier and they are less inclined to dropout.
Thank you very much, hon Chair.

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Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke lebogela dikarabo tse Motlatsatona
wa Lefapha la Thuto ya Motheo a neelaneng ka tsona le fa nnete e le
gore se se diragalang kwa dikolong ga se se a se buang. Seno se kaya
gore ... (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I am thankful for the answers given to
us by the Deputy Minister for the Department of Basic Education,
even though what he has said is contrary to what really transpires
in the schools. This means that ...]

Deputy Minister, your department concentrate more on paying
salaries. One will ask that the salaries you are talking about that
80% of your budget go to salary. One will ask him or herself ...

... gore tuelo e o buang ka gayona e duela bomang? Dikolo tsa batho
ba bantsho, batho ba mmala le tse di kwa metseselegae di tlhoka
barutabana. Go na le barutabana ba nakwana ba ba duelwang ke
dikomiti tse di laolang dikolo ... (Translation of Setswana
paragraph follows.)

[... the payment you are referring to is paid to who? There is lack
of educators in schools for black children, coloured as well as in
the rural areas. There are temporary educators who are paid for by
the school governing bodies ...]

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...and the quality of education there is very poor because those
classes are overcrowded

Jaanong ke rata go go botsa jaana, mogaetsho, ke re maikaelelo a
lefapha la gago go netefatsa gore o busetsa serodumo sa thuto mo
baneng ba rona ke eng, gonne ... [I want to put a question to you:
What is your department‘s intention to redeem itself? Because ...]

... it is clear you don‘t have a plan. If you need assistance, we
are there to assist you to make sure that you give our kids free and
quality, real quality education. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon sister from my province,
thank you very much for the offer and indeed we will call on you to
assist us. I think more importantly is for us to recognise that
education requires partners across the political spectrum.

And I think part of our achievement and I am saying this with
humility, has been the ability to unite across all parties a common
commitment to providing quality education because we all recognise
that we have to deal with matter of inequality. What is that that we
have done about it? Today, eight out of ten children go to no fee
schools. And those that are in fee paying schools, if they don‘t
have the ability or means to pay are exempted by a law.

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So, free education is the reality. Today, we can say with great
pride that 10 million children are being fed everyday in schools.
It‘s the truth and that evidence is there. You might want to refute,
but that is the reality. Today as I have indicated, our children,
even our Grade R children receive four books. To every child who is
in Grade R receives four books delivered to him or her free of
charge.

But the key question then is what we do with regard to retaining
skills in our rural areas. We had a round table conference with
regard to this particular issue. I listen to the hon member when she
made her input and I thought there was very substantial. And I do
believe she will give me the same attention when I respond. But be
that as it may, it‘s something that we have to look at. We have had
around table on rural education because unless we look at rural
education through a focus and a different length, we are not going
to succeed.

And the reality is that it‘s extremely difficult to retain educators
in rural areas. That means what kind of incentives we provide for
those educators and what kind of opportunities.

So with regard to your Funza Lushaka Bursary Scheme, for example, we
are inviting provinces and communities to send and identify learners
from within the communities to take our bursaries so that when they

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qualify they go back to the schools where they can teach and provide
services to our learners.

We provide incentives and opportunities for educators who teach in
difficult areas, such as mathematics, science and the languages. And
I think that‘s another initiative. But, yes, more has to be done in
order to ensure that we retain appropriately qualified and competent
educators in our rural areas because after all they cannot be
neglected.

The African child is certainly at the centre of our policy planning
and indeed in terms of the allocation of resources, two schools;
historically black schools or poorest schools certainly are better
resourced than historically whites schools.

The quintile system speaks to that and quintiles 1, 2 and 3 that
every child receives not less than a R1 000 for his or her
education. Again, I say much more has to be done, but I do believe
we are making important points and stride and we see that in the
performance by our learners. Thank you very much.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Minister, let me agree with you when you
say this government inherited an unequal system, but also disagree
with the hon Deputy Minister when you say you have just started. You
have not yet just started. You started 22 years ago. You have partly

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responded to what I wanted to ask, but I will still go on so that
you cover me broadly.

The problem is or rather the concern we have is the influx of
learners from rural areas to the cities. That says something about
quality. The influx of learners from the townships to the cities, it
says something about quality.

Now the rate at which the gap is closing, when are we going to begin
to really critically address that because they are quiet right, it‘s
being address, but the rate at which is being addressed says
something because they keep on moving away from townships and rural
areas. You keep on seeing vans, you keep on seeing bus loads and you
keep on seeing kombi loads flocking to the cities because of this
issue of quality. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, migration is a
reality, but migration does not occur because of quality education.
Migration is an economic phenomenon that affects the life of people
where mother and father generally go out to towns and cities to seek
work and not only from the same province but different provinces.

This explains the huge migration that we have in Gauteng.
Johannesburg receives people from all over who seek jobs out there
and the children then go to schools in those particular areas. But
what we have done differently is, just think about it; Just 20 years

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ago, we had more than 13 education departments. We had each
provincial department having different syllabus or curriculum
itself. We now have uniform curricular; we have a uniform system of
education that is embraced by all.

We have seen improvements in literacy and numeracy. I have indicated
out here that with Secmeq, we have for the first time achieved more
than 50% across all grades across all provinces. Now if that is not
evidence of improvement, what it is? Given the realities of where we
come from and this is the reality, and I always say many of us who
are much older will say well, I was taught under difficult
circumstances. I have done well.

But think about those who joined you in the then standard 6 and
those who matriculated. You probably had less than 3% of those who
were in class of standard 6, matriculating in matric because of the
challenges with regard to the quality of education. Today, that is
not a phenomenon. Today, we have more distinctions that are
generated by quintiles 1, 2 and 3 schools than quintiles 4 and 5
schools. We have actually turned it around. And 20 years is not a
long time.

I have never suggested and nor will I suggest that we have achieved
optimal performance or we have achieved excellence. What I have said
and I say that unequivocally, that we are moving surely and steadily

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away from mediocrity. And I think it takes hard work and collective
enterprise and a commitment to improve the quality of education.

And what is happening, but interestingly is the competition among
provinces. Previously there were only two provinces that you would
see on the radar screen. It would be either Gauteng or Western Cape.
Think about last year, Western Cape, congratulations, they done
extremely well. The year before that it was Free State. The year
before that it was Free State and North West. Western Cape was
number six.

So, you are seeing also in the rural provinces a steady improvement.
In Limpopo, you have Mbilwi, you have Dendron. Those schools are
performing extremely well. So, you have pockets of excellence and we
have challenges. And I do believe and I say that with the great deal
of conviction that indeed, education takes more than a generation to
turnaround. And 22 years in a system of education is not a long time
given the realities of our past. Thank you very much.

Compensation of ghost educators: EC

2.

Ms T G Mpambo-Sibhukwana (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister
of Basic Education: [Written Question No 171]

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How will her department deal with the alleged involvement of a
certain person (name furnished) into corruption regarding the
compensation of ghost educators in the Eastern Cape?

CO225E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: This is a very short
response, I promise you. The question from the NCOP was referred to
Mr Payi ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We have got a point of order,
just take your seat, hon member.

Ms T J MOKWELE: According to the Question Paper, hon Deputy Chair,
the question concerned is a written question. So I don‘t know
whether we are dealing with it here or what. Thank you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chair, this question was there during
the previous oral question session and was reverted to a written
question. And according to Rule 246(6) and Rule 249, this question
must be answered orally. Deputy Chairperson, I would also like to
draw your attention to Question 3 as well. According to our
communication with the Questions Office, Question 3 received a reply
prior to today. So, that question should actually not be on the
Order Paper. There is Question 2 and Question 3 on page 122. That
Question 3 ... [Interjections.]

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, you are already taking us to
page 122?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, according to the communication we received, a
reply to Question 3 was sent to us on Monday morning, that is,
yesterday. Therefore, it should not be on the Question Paper today.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It shouldn‘t be replied to?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Question 3 is not supposed to be on the Question
Paper but Question 2 is.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, there was an
objection or a point of order raised as an objection and there was a
counter for which I want to sustain the counter in terms of the
rules that have been read out. Therefore, hon Deputy Minister, you
may continue.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the
fact that this is a provincial matter, we, as the Department of
Basic Education have referred it to the provincial Human Resource
Manager, Mr Payi, in the Eastern Cape, and he has not responded. We
then referred the matter to the Acting Chief Director, Ms Chibo. We
are going to follow it up and as soon as that information is
provided to us we would be able to respond. Unfortunately it does
not fall within the purview of our national competency and we have

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to rely on the province to do this. But we give you the assurance
that we will certainly seek the answer and provide it to the hon
member. Thank you very much.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Deputy Chairperson to the Deputy Minister,
Prof Surty, thank you for your efforts in trying to answer this
question. I would like to add; in your provincial responses you said
you will follow it up and give us clarity on the internal
investigation that has been carried out by your department following
the millions that have gone missing in the Eastern Cape Department
of Basic Education. I have furnished a name of Portia Sizani who has
been acquitted on five counts of fraud yet still facing 16 others.
That is my addition. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you prepared to answer?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Yes, Deputy Chairperson. My
hon Minister, Dr Nzimande, is very, very offended for calling me a
professor. I have not even achieved my doctorate yet, so I apologise
to him but thank you very much for giving me the title; I will carry
it with me in my heart.

Dr B E NZIMANDE: [Inaudible.] [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Oh, yes, I might get struck
off, yes. But hon Deputy Chairperson, what I can assure the hon

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member is that, fortunately, the Eastern Cape is under intervention
and it is one of the matters that we could pursue on her behalf. And
I certainly would take responsibility to follow it up and revert to
the hon member. But again I would have to do so through the offices
of the province. However, thank you for raising the matter again.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I must also confess Deputy
Minister, I thought maybe ... Deputy Minister, I must confess to you
and the House that I also took it for granted that probably
something might have happened that we are not aware of - that you
might have graduated during that period. But thank you very much for
having responded to the questions as the Department of Basic
Education.

Hon members, that brings us to the end of the questions on Basic
Education. The Chief Whip wanted to address you on something before
we proceed. Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, I am not quite sure
because I have been in and out, but maybe an apology needs to be
conveyed. We are juggling the order here, and the reasons for that
are as we explained this morning that we are managing two processes
concurrently. So, instead of health, as you see it here, it will be
higher education and this is because of the two processes that are

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running concurrently. But we are still giving priority to the
sitting here. Thank you Deputy Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I take it that the Ministers
have agreed as well. That being the case, hon members, we may
proceed with higher education which will then also conclude the
education as a sector.

Degrees for sale scam

83. Ms L L Zwane (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of Higher
Education and Training

Whether his department has any plans and/or strategies in place
to combat the alleged scam of issuing fake or falsified
qualifications (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what
are the relevant details?

CO267EThe

MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson and hon
members of the NCOP, the response to hon Zwane is that I have
already implemented plans and strategies to combat the alleged
issuing of fake or false qualifications, using the available
legislative and operational mechanisms at my disposal. My answer is
close on two pages. In the interest of time I will summarise it, but
will leave a copy of the answer with all the details here.

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The National Qualification Framework Act directly addresses the
issuing of fake or falsified qualifications. As I have an executive
responsibility for the National Qualifications Framework, NQF, and
the South African Qualifications Authority, SAQA, I would often
request SAQA to advise me on how to deal with this matter. The South
African Qualifications Authority has the right to take the
initiative to actually advise me on actions that they have taken to
deal with fraudulent qualifications.

In the case of universities, the Council on Higher Education advises
the Minister on matters relating to universities that have also
played a role in this regard. In the short term – which is what hon
Zwane asked about – I have already taken action to deal with the
latest problem, which is the recent exposure of the scams and all
that at the University of Zululand. I have already asked SAQA and
they, together with the Council on Higher Education, are busy
investigating what the source of this problem is and who is alleged
to have bought qualifications from the University of Zululand. They
are investigating so that they can come back and report to me as
soon as possible, so that I deal with this.

However, in the medium to long term, SAQA has been tasked with
establishing a fraud unit, so that we have a systematic way of
dealing with this problem, rather than just responding in an ad hoc
manner as and when issues are raised about the possibility of fake
qualifications. This fraud unit will deal with all reports on

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misrepresented and invalid qualifications and provide reports about
any national or foreign qualification fraud occurrences every two
months. SAQA is already doing this. Every two months, they give me
the numbers of fake or fraudulent qualifications.

We were hoping that by now we would have had a list of people with
fraudulent qualifications to name and shame but we have run against
... Legal advisors said that it might be unconstitutional, unless
you have legislation that allows you to do so. For instance, you
can‘t list a person as having a fraudulent qualification, unless
that is found to be so by a court of law.

Another legal advisor has said that we could perhaps include a
clause that states that when someone submits his or her
qualifications and it happens that there is something untrue about
what they submit when applying for a job in the public service, it
will be published. Again, other lawyers are saying that people are
incriminating themselves, in case that actually happens. So we are
looking at legislative amendments for the purpose of having a naming
and shaming list as part of our response to dealing with fraudulent
qualifications. Thank you.

Mr A S SINGH: Chair, I have a follow-up question to the Minister.
Thank you for the answers you have given us thus far. Are there any
plans in place for internal capacity to stop fraudulent activity
within SAQA?

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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Singh, this is
precisely the capacity that we are building and we are hoping that
in the next financial year, we will be able to ... We have requested
funding to do this because originally, it was really in the plan
that SAQA would build a fraud unit that is quite involved.

So, the capacity is not there at the moment. That is the capacity
that we want to build. We are putting in a bid to build this
capacity. Hopefully, before the end of the next financial year, we
would have dealt with this, together with the amendments to the
legislation, so that we are able to also incorporate the necessity
to name and shame those with fake or fraudulent qualifications.
Thank you.

Mme T J MOKWELE: Ke a go leboga, Tona. Go totobetse gore puso e e
eteletsweng pele ke ANC ga e ... [Tsenoganong.] Ke go emele? Ke eme
Modulasetilo?

MOTLATSAMODULASETILO WA NCOP: Ke se a se kopang.

Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga. O ithute maleme a rona otlhe Tona ka
gonne jaanong o tlile go kopana le rona ba re buang Setswana. Go
netefetse gore puso e e eteletsweng pele ke ANC ga ya ikaelela go
tsaya maikarabelo a go diragatsa molao go sengwe le sengwe se se
seng ka fa molaong. Gore re be re na le batho ba ba ikayang ka
makwalo a dithuto, jaaka mo ANC Rre Pallo Jordan le Ellen

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Tshabalala, ba go sa diriwang sepe ka bona fa ba akeditse naga gore
ba feletse kae ka thuto. Gompieno Tona ... (Translation of Setswana
paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you Minister. It is very clear that the ANCled government is not ... [Interruptions.] Chairperson, must I wait
for you?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That‘s what I am asking of you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: You must learn to speak all languages in case to
find yourself in the midst of people like myself who address you in
Setswana. It is very clear that the ANC-led government is neither
ready to implement nor practise what the law advices. For the fact
that people in the ANC like Mr Pallo Jordan and Ellen Tshabalala who
still managed to lie to the nation about their qualifications and
nothing has been done to them. Minister ...]

... you are standing here in front of us and you don‘t even have an
answer as to what you are going to do in terms of this challenge
that the country is facing. It is because this thing ...

... tapole e e ka fa teng ga kgetse e e eteletseng naga pele.
Jaanong re a ikopela, re a ikuela motl gore netefatsang gore melao
le melawana e lo e bayang le lona e kgona go lo baya mo maemomg a
gore lo kgone go lebagana le letsogo la molao. Ga nkitla go re thusa

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gore re nne fa re bue ka batho. (Translation of Setswana paragraph
follows)

[... a rotten potato in the bag that is leading the country. I am
pleading with you to ensure that the laws that you put in place are
easy to follow so that you will be able to face the music should a
need arise. Gossiping won‘t help us.]

It is not only about ordinary South Africans; it includes Parliament
itself. If you go to the NA and NCOP, you will find numerous Members
of Parliament, especially from the ANC ...

... ba ba se nang makwalo a dithuto ba e leng gore ...
[Tsenoganong.] Nnyaa, sekao ke Tshabalala ... [... those without
qualifications that ... [Interjections.] No, Tshabalala is en
example ...]

... and nothing has happened regarding that. An example is Pallo
Jordan. Nothing has happened regarding that. Make sure that ...
[Interjections.] [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, order! Before the
Minister responds to the question, there is a remark that the member
made and I didn‘t want to interrupt that remark because I wanted to
respond personally. We are guided by this Constitution ...
[Inaudible.] ... which, in its preamble, recognises the diversity of

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the society in which we live. It recognises the history of this
country. It does not mean that if I am not able to speak isiVenda or
understand it, I am not regarded as a South African or I don‘t have
an interest in the nation-building of our country. So, we need to
respect the fact that it is important to unite this country and to
build a nation out of it, but equally so, we need to respect the
diversity of this society.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME NOKUQEQESHA: Mtungwa, kungcono
ngikuphendule ngesiZulu. Into engifuna ukuyisho ukuthi akulona
iqiniso ukuthi ngoba kunabantu abathize abathintekayo ...
[Ubuwelewele] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Mntungwa (Clan
name.), it would be better if I answer you in isiZulu. I want to say
is that it is not true that because certain affected people ...
[Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Put on
your translation mechanism.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME NOKUQEQESHA: ... akulona iqiniso
ukuthi ngoba kukhona abantu abathize abasondelene noKhongose
abatholakale ukuthi abanawo amaphepha ababekade bethe banawo ngakhoke asisafuni ukuthi sithathe izinyathelo. Okusempeleni ...
(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

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[The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: ... it is not true
that just because there are people who are linked to the ANC who
were found that they don‘t have the qualifications that they claimed
to have, therefore we don‘t want to take action against them.
Actually ...]

... it is precisely for those reasons that more people are being
exposed. That is why we are doing all that we can, irrespective of
who they are. That is why we are taking this action with SAQA.

By the way, one thing that I did not mention, which I am
increasingly getting representations about, is the claim that people
write examinations for others. I want to approach SAQA about it. I
have said to the people who have made these representations that, if
they are suspicious or they have a case, they must bring it. We also
want to be creative in thinking of how SAQA can deal with this,
especially as it concerns Masters degrees and PhDs. It does not only
end there, however; undergraduates also get other people to write
their examinations for them.

We want to look into all of that. We will act irrespective of who is
involved. If it involves members of the ANC, we will act in no less
a way than we would act if it were members of the EFF. Thank you
very much.

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I heard a name.
Sometimes, we tend to be carried away. [Inaudible.] We should not
forget that we are protected as Members of Parliament. We can say
whatever we like and we are protected by the Rules of this House and
the Constitution. However, if you mention a name of a person who is
unable to respond, it becomes very difficult. If a person is not a
Member of Parliament and you make a statement and that statement is
made as a fact in a House sitting, that person is disadvantaged
because they are unable to respond. I am cautioning members because
there is recourse for such people outside. [Interjections.] So, we
should be careful not to get carried away, thinking that we cannot
be held responsible for what we say. [Interjections.]

Hon members, I acted in terms of my responsibilities to protect this
House and the members of this House.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, let me welcome the responses from the hon
Minister. Mine is just to check how big the problem is. It will
assist us to know ...

... ukuthi le nkinga esikhuluma ngayo ingakanani. [... how big the
problem that we are talking about is.]

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, it is a
very important question but it is difficult to answer it
convincingly or with certainty at the moment. That is why, amongst

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other things, as far as government is concerned, the Department of
Public Service and Administration has decided that it is going to
ask for verification of qualifications, even for existing staff.
That, we hope, will go some way toward telling us how big the
problem could be.

Although, having said that, I don‘t want to leave the impression
that we actually have a system that is just characterised by
corruption. Our university system has a very good reputation
internationally, which makes me feel that the problem is, hopefully,
perhaps not that big. We are still widely respected throughout the
world but we would like to do all we can to eliminate this
completely. Thank you.

Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, I would just like to enquire about the
SAQA verification system. How accessible will it be for ordinary
employers who have to verify a qualification? Secondly, the hon
Minister referred to people even currently employed in the public
service. So, what would the capacity be to verify qualifications?
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chair, so far SAQA
had been largely used to assist us to check foreign qualifications.
If someone comes from outside South Africa and claims to have a
Masters degree in this or that, then we would use SAQA. I must say

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that there are lots of private agencies that are actually used to
check qualifications.

What we perhaps might want to look into is some form of overarching
regulation or relationship with SAQA. We want to ensure that whoever
does this at least observes certain minimum standards, so that we
can talk of one system. The private sector does not use SAQA, and
SAQA does not have the capacity to look into qualifications in the
private sector.

Among the people that SAQA normally also checks are people like
directors-general and deputy directors-general who apply. So SAQA is
the main institution that would actually assist government to do
that. Thank you very much.

2017 academic year fees increases

108. Ms L Mathys (Gauteng: EFF) asked the Minister of Higher
Education and Training:

(1)

Whether he has established that universities are planning
to increase fees for the 2017 academic year; if not, why
not; if so, for how much; 19 Tuesday, 23 August 2016 [No 3—
2016] THIRD SESSION, FIFTH PARLIAMENT

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(2)

PAGE: 84 of 318

whether he has established that students will accept any
fees increases in the near future; if not, what is the
position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant
details?

CO293E

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, through you, thank you hon Mathys for the question.
Following the recommendations of the Presidential Task Team Report
which was released in November last year – remember, the President
met with the vice chancellors some time last year September or
October to discuss things that could be a threat to the start of the
2016 academic year. One of the things that were identified was the
issue of fees and a concern that there might be a response to the
fact that different universities just raised fees willy-nilly and
with different percentages and nobody knows why this university
would increase by 12% or 10% and the other one by 8%.

I then, out of that, asked the Council on Higher Education to help
us develop a regulatory framework. There was in principle agreement
in the sector but we needed a regulatory framework. I said that this
regulatory framework must report to me in two phases.

The first phase was to report on what happens next year, 2017, in
terms of fees. The Council on Higher Education has come back to me
with a recommendation but I am still consulting and looking at all
the issues on what should happen in relation to university fees next

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year. Maybe just to share very quickly on what the Council on Higher
Education indicated; they don‘t think there should be a no-fee
increase for next year. They are recommending consumer price index,
CPI; which is inflation linked. The universities are not happy with
that because they need what they call the Higher Education Price
Index, which is normally 2% higher than your normal CPI.

The Council on Higher Education reported that if the universities do
not get that, they will start retrenching and start closing down
some programmes at the universities and that may actually damage the
system. That is what I am consulting, with the hope that – as we
said, before the end of this month, we should actually be able to
give direction as to what is likely to happen - whether there will
be fee increases or not; and if they do increase, how much
percentage will it be.

The second phase is that the students made it clear that they don‘t
want any increases as far as they are concerned, regarding fees for
2017. I have met with the students, by the way, including the SA
Union of Students. So, that is my answer to hon Mathys.

Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Deputy Chair, I greet everyone with as-saalamualay-kum. In a country that still displays such a huge socioeconomic
discrepancy, I am sure that the hon Minister will agree with me and
agree with us that education and educating the large masses of our

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children in this country will go a very long way to addressing the
issue of discrepancy.

The question I wish to ask the hon Minister is, we are simply asking
whether the government will give serious consideration to realigning
the budget in such a manner that free quality education can be made
available to our children, not only in basic education but also at
tertiary level so as to redress the situation. If this is so,
provide us with details. But more importantly, if this is not so,
then, please explain to us, and especially to the children out
there, why this is not going to be so. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, through you, thank you hon member. Maybe let us just
remind one another what government policy is now and what government
has done to implement that policy. In essence we are on the same
side with the students; it is not that we are on opposite sides. We
may differ on modalities and pace by which we achieve what we want
to achieve.

The Freedom Charter, amongst other things, states that in higher
education, scholarships and other forms of assistance will be
provided based on merit. That is what the Freedom Charter states, in
so far as higher education is concerned. The Constitution says
progressive introduction of free higher education for the poor, not
for everyone. Government policy states that there will be free

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higher education until the first undergraduate qualification, that
is government policy. That is why, since the National Student
Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas, was founded, this ANC government has
spent over R50 billion to support more than 1,5 million students who
come from poor backgrounds. Overwhelmingly, that 1,5 million include
students from families whose children have never been to
universities or colleges.

This year we will be supporting 405 000 students; 205 000 at
university and 200 000 at colleges. At colleges, by the way, it‘s
not a loan; it‘s a grant - they don‘t have to pay it back. This
grant of supporting students in technical and vocational education
and training, Tvet, colleges is relatively new. We are committed. At
the moment, there is the presidential commission that is precisely
looking into this matter because the students have legitimately
raised this issue and it maybe because we are moving too slow. The
fact of the matter is that there is already free higher education
for the poor in South Africa; the challenge is it has not yet
reached everyone who actually qualifies. The presidential commission
will help to advise us on that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon Minister
and thank you once more for having ignored any disruption to your
speech because there are members here who have constituencies and
such responses are very much important to them. If you are not
interested, don‘t disrupt other people‘s opportunities to hear and

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get information to go and report in their constituencies. Hon
Julius?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Deputy Chair, through you to the hon Minister,
relationships in government and different viewpoints may sometimes
impact on policy and service delivery, especially higher up. There
are media reports that President Zuma ordered you as the Minister
and the Minister of Finance, Pravin, to implement a zero percent fee
increase for 2017 during the National Executive Committee, NEC,
meeting some time last week.

I just want to find out. Can you confirm this? Do you agree with
this or is there a conflict of interest somewhere? What is the
stance because like I said in the beginning, it is not a tricky
question. The importance of this is that as I am talking - like I
said in the beginning, it is not a tricky question, Minister, or a
question to drive a wedge between you and the President. The
importance of this is that if we don‘t go out with one idea,
especially in terms of different views on this, there might be a
problem with regard to delivery of services to our university
students next.

Can you please explain or confirm if in your NEC meeting the
President did order you and Minister Pravin Gordhan for zero percent
fee increase because this is precisely why students are now - like
you mentioned, insisting on a zero percent fee increase because they

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heard this report from an outside source and it might create a
problem to you and Minister Pravin. So, that is the question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I just ascertain something
with you, even before the Minister answer? I can see that the
Minister wants to take the question, so that we avoid setting
precedence in some other way. Is your question related to the
Minister in his capacity as a Minister or as NEC member of the ANC?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you for that opportunity to give clarity. My
question was, ―Does the Minister agree with that?‖ Can the Minister
confirm that because even if he sit in an NEC meeting, he is still
the Minister of Higher Education? So, based on today, we are posing
questions to the Minister of Higher Education here in this House and
the question is directed to the Minister of Higher Education. Thank
you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Relevant to the department.
[Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Julius, you will
do yourself a favour by not reading the papers selectively. The
President issued a statement in response to that report which said
that the Minister of Higher Education and Training is consulting on
this matter. We also issued a statement to clarify that; I am sure
you have seen it but you are cleverly trying to wedge your way into

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finding a different answer. You are not at variance with the
President on this particular matter and on what we are doing. It is
also not true to put it as if the students are demanding no-fee
increases only after the report by the City Press. They started a
long while back that they don‘t want any fee increases for 2017 and
this is not in response to this. That will be my answer.

Mme N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetilo, dipotso tsa me ke di lebisa ko go
Tona. Ke kopa go botsa gore a ditshwetso tse lo agang lo di tsaya
tsa go oketsa madi a dithuto tse dikgolwane, a wena jaaka motho yo
montsho o tle o akanyetse bantsho jaaka wena? Ke botsa gape gore
wena Tona, ka ke a itse gore wena o mohumi wa mabone a a
botalaloapi, a e tle e re fa lo oketsa madi o be o nagana bana ba ba
dikobo di magetleng? A o tle o ba nagane ba ba tswang kwa magaeng
gore fa ba falotse bontle thata, ba tla duela ka eng dikolo tseo? Ke
a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Ms N P MOKGOSI: Chairperson, my questions to the Minister: Firstly,
do you ever put yourself in the shoes of other black people when you
take decisions to increase higher education fees? Secondly, do you
ever think about the poor? How do you think they will pay their
study fees? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Deputy
Chairperson, I was on a wrong channel here but if I understood the
hon member correctly - with my little knowledge of Setswana, it was

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asked, ―Do you think that poor kids will afford to pay?‖ Do I think
about that? No, I don‘t think about them, the government acts on
their behalf, that is why we have Nsfas. The ANC government was
concerned about the fact that no poor child who is academically
capable should be excluded from accessing a university or college
because there is no money for him or her to pay the fees. That is
actually the ANC that cares about the poor, consistently and all the
time. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo [Thank you.]

Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Deputy Chair, through you to the Minister, you
highlighted in your response that part of what you would like to see
coming out from Council on Higher Education is that there is a
regulatory framework so that institutions cannot willy-nilly and in
an nonuniform kind of situation increase fees. Would you concede
that this is part of one element of making sure that accessibilities
are short for poorer students and also making sure that there is
uniformity throughout the tertiary education as a platform? Thank
you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you for the
question, hon member. That is very important. Yes, we want to ensure
that there is also rationality in the fee increases. I am not saying
that some universities act irrationally but sometimes it is not
explainable why one university would increase fees by so much. We
want to introduce a regulatory framework that will guide the
institutions. I am saying ‗guide‘ because it is not the government

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that sets fees but it‘s councils of individual universities and
councils of colleges that in law have the power to actually set
fees.

All what we are providing is a framework, having had everybody
agreeing that they will be guided by that framework and requirements
that will come out of it. Yes, the issue of affordability is very
central in that framework. I do need to say that what we also admit
as government is that the growth in students‘ numbers, for instance,
at university has not been adequately merged by resources that we as
government have put into the system. That is why we are the first
ones to admit that there is backlog in accommodation, but we are
dealing with it. That is why the GDP percentage that goes to higher
education is also lower than the continental average because we grew
the system very fast but did not deal with the resources.

So, that is the issue that we as government are dealing with, now
that we really need a fundamental change in our approach to funding
what we call postschool education and training. We must also not
forget that universities are not the only postschool institutions;
that is why we are strengthening Tvet colleges. The resources we
have cannot all be directed into one sector when the need is
actually big. Unemployed young people who have finished school and
who are unable to access skills or some kind of further education
and training also need those resources. Thank you.

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Improved administration of NSFAS

84.

Ms T K Mampuru (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of Higher
Education and Training:

(1)

Whether his department has any strategies and/or plans in
place to have improved administration of the National
Student Financial Aid Scheme (NSFAS) in different
institutions; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details;

(2)

how does his department ensure the repayment of loans by
NSFAS from former students?

CO268E

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, that then brings us
to the end of Question 108 by hon Mathys. We then proceed to
Question 84 by hon Mampuru which will then be taken by hon ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chair, I thought I was whispering
in your ear.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, you whispered very loud.
Okay.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: I thought the little note I submitted
...

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I thought you were seeking my
attention.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: No, the little note I submitted
indicates who is responsible for Mampuru‘s question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, its hon Nthebe.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon
Minister.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, hon
members, we are indeed in the process of transforming administration
of

the

National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS. Some of the

things that we are doing now is that we are changing the manner in
which the administration of NSFAS money is being done.

At the moment NSFAS gives money to institutions and then the
financial aid offices of institutions decide and also administer the
money. There are lots of problems and challenges with this, but of
course before, NSFAS didn‘t have capacity to be able not to use
financial aid offices, but we are changing that now.

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We have started piloting with establishing a direct relationship
between NSFAS and the students, its beneficiaries. On a whole range
and also one of the things that I can just illustrate very briefly
is that what we have been having now is that NSFAS students apply
for NSFAS every year. That is a problem. We are moving the system
now to say that if you have received NSFAS, you don‘t have to
reapply again provided you pass. It should be automatic that you are
able to receive NSFAS. Now, that is what we are doing with regard to
looking at how NSFAS is functioning.

Of course there are squabbles, some students are not happy about
this. For example, one of the things that NSFAS has been doing, has
been to put money directly into student cards, into their bank
cards. Now, NSFAS is saying no, we are going to be issuing a special
NSFAS card that allows you to go and buy from particular shops or
from particular bookshops in order to minimise, if not, eliminate
abuse of that money and extravagance, because that money must go to
education. It must not go to any other things that it is not
intended for.

I must also say that I am very happy that the board of NSFAS has put
strategies to recover money from those students who were
beneficiaries and who are working but are not paying. NSFAS has now
set up a relationship with SA Revenue Service, Sars, because Sars is
the most reliable institution that can tell if you are working or

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not, as every taxpayer is in their system and that it shows if one
is earning enough money to be able to pay in particular.

With this initiatives, as my last point, NSFAS, has collected
R75,6 million in three months between 1 April 2016 to 30 June 2016,
from debtors. We had never collected this much money before. It is
beginning to show that we are indeed on the right course with regard
to recovering money as part of improving the NSFAS‘s administration.
Thank you.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Minister, you talked about three things in
particular that we are continually trying to transform, but there is
also an issue and intent to deal with the issue of allocation and
that we seek to check whether there is value for money with regard
to what we seek to do.

But I think you also touch slightly on the issue of how we want to
see the whole NSFAS being transformed as a vehicle to ensure that
there is accessibility. Can you go further and explain to us
probably as to ... And we are thankful for the recovered amount that
75,1 . Over a two decade period, how much have we been able to
ensure that accessibility is achieved through of course funding of
NSFAS? Thank you so much.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: It may be by just way
of figures and information in my pack here. Between 1994-1999, NSFAS

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allocated R1,7 billion to 366 606 students, but between 2010-2015
the number of student had risen to reach a million and we were
assisted within that five year period at R34,9 billion. So, there
has been a huge, a big jump as I have said, we are just over
R10 billion this year.

But, we are also raising, if I heard you correctly, another
important matter of value for money. That still remains a concern,
because the failure rate at our universities and colleges is still
unacceptably high.

One of the tasks that we have given NSFAS is to say what type of
support mechanisms we can create in order to improve the pass rate?
You know, our failure rate is so high that, for instance, if we just
say we are not going to increase the number of university or college
students over the next five years, we will stay the same. We won‘t
increase it but increase the pass rate by 20%. That would bring
better results than the continuous yearly increase that we make. Of
course, we can‘t stop increasing, but I am just making an example
that, that is where we want to get to. The government is doing a lot
address that. For instance, one of the things that we want to do is
to introduce a mentorship system throughout the system in both
colleges and universities. In particular, we want to target first
year students because that is where we have a big problem. If we can
improve the pass rate, a couple years ago, although I do not have

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those figures now with me, but 40% of NSFAS students would fail
their first year.

But it is a big debate which I can maybe leave for this House and
hon members to debate.

We are the only country in the world that has got a 12 years
schooling system and a three year degree in average. Most countries
that have three year degrees have 13th year and in the United
Kingdom it is known as the A level, which is what the Zimbabweans
do, which prepares you to the university or if you have a 12 year
system then you have an average of a four year degree.

Now, I have been advised for instance that maybe South Africa should
shift to a four year degree. Now that is going to cost billions of
rands. We must be absolutely sure that if we do that it‘s going to
give us the results that we want, because it is actually a big
gamble, but that is a conversation that we are going to continue to
have with the Department of Basic Education. We also urge all South
Africans to help on this so that in the end the students we assist
to go university or college we get the value of that the hon member
is talking about. Thank you very much.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the change to the
system whereby students will apply once for the duration of their
course, I think it‘s a good improvement, but it creates another

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problem now in respect of the change of circumstances. How does then
NSFAS detect that, if it doesn‘t get updated every year that is one?
And again, the Minister promised us that in order to also deal with
these issues of abuse and corruption, NSFAS was going to be linked
with regard to information to Sars and Home Affairs, so as to detect
if there are problems and also the authenticity of the information
given. Has that happened? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: It is an important
question that you are raising. I can‘t claim to be having an
immediate answer now, but I can go back and just find out from NSFAS
and the department as to how they will actually deal with that.

Although is very rare, change of circumstances for students who come
from poor families is often getting into worse situations unless the
father or the mother gets married to a millionaire or wins a lotto
or someone in the family wins a lotto. I am not so sure; let me not
give you an answer that I have not checked. If you allow me I will
check that answer and my office will also remind me so that I can
send through you Chair to this House the answer to this question.

Yes, that is the link that we are building now with Sars and Home
Affairs. That is why it is beginning to bear results. That is why we
are even identifying public servants for instance and some are in my
own department who are not paying back NSFAS. It is because of this
link that we are establishing and part of changing the

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administration and improving is actually to do this. That is why I
am saying that though we have not completed but is beginning to bear
fruits in terms of the initial linkages that NSFAS is making with
these departments. Thank you.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, through you, hon Minister, thank you
for providing the amount that was collected by NSFAS in three months
time which is R75 million . It can really go a long way in helping
other deserving students in our universities. I just need to find
out how is actually owed to NSFAS? The total amount you mentioned
that you gave out R1,7 billion and then another R34,9 billion. That
amounts to almost R36 billion if I check the R75 million with the
three months that‘s almost 2% recovery of those loans to students
and I know that 40% is not returnable and in other cases the final
year students will not pay back. So it shouldn‘t be too high up of
the 98% non-retrieval or non-collected money shouldn‘t be accurate
if you do not have the outstanding balance of NSFAS now. If you can
just send it to us at a later stage, but I just need to know so that
we can understand because I think this is very important information
for us to understand the real problem that we face now in South
Africa and maybe it will give us a the necessary tool or information
to also come up with solutions to this problem that we are currently
facing with regard to students funding. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Unfortunately, I
don‘t have those figures with me now. What I know which I can say

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with certainty is that the recovery is very low compared to the
money that NSFAS is owed. But as you say I will send those figures
back to the House through you, Chair. The exact figures so that I
don‘t guess. I have a sense in my head of what it could be but I
don‘t want to take a chance and be quoted in the papers when I don‘t
have accurate information with me. Thank you.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Minister, some of the non-payments due to the
fact that our economy is not creating work and some of these
students are therefore unable to repay their loans and some of them
have not been employed ever since they left universities. Now, one
would like to find out from you. Are you prepared to write those
tips for those who are unemployed and who cannot pay? And if so, how
many of those are there that are unemployed ever since they left
universities? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: We are aware of that
there is a challenge of unemployment amongst some of the graduates,
but it is not as high as people claim by the way, especially
university graduates. The unemployment amongst those is not as high
as people normally say if truth be told. But I can‘t be able to
estimate that and give figures here and now. But, because we are
aware of this problem, one the things I did during my first stint as
a Minister, very early, was actually to change the way NSFAS was
operating with regard to interest and payment. I think it was around

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2010, NSFAS used to charge you interest from the day they give you
money to start your first year.

So, as you are still studying we are accumulating interest on your
loan every day. So, by the time you finish a three year degree if
you finish it on record time; you would have been accumulating
interest for three years. I changed that and said, no, whilst the
student is studying no interest must be charged, so you just leave
the capital as it is. And again, what I changed was that also start
charging interest a year after completion in order to allow for this
possibility that for instance black graduates take twice as long to
get a job than white graduates in South Africa, which is still a
reflection by the way of the nature of our economy, how racialised
our economy still is. That is the reality.

So, we were trying to cater for that. That at least you provide some
relief and also it‘s not everybody who pays. You only start paying
back if you are earning more than R30 000 a month. That is the
guideline that we actually have. One of the things that my
department is trying by all means to do now is to actually
facilitate access to internships by both college and university
graduates, because 75% of our youngsters who have gone through a 12
months internship, do get a job. So, that is what I have also
instructed the SETA‘s to do, that you prioritise internships for the
unemployed graduate and we are actually assisting a lot of them.

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I think hon member it is unfair that when I answer you disagree
instead of using an opportunity to do that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think just ignore them hon
Minister. So, it is deliberate? It is deliberate. If you don‘t want
to listen to the information you may just as well leave the House.
Okay, no, it‘s quite interesting. Order, hon members! Can we proceed
with the business of the day? Yes, I have noted that. So, I will
start with my left this time.

Call for free education

85.

Ms P C Samka (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Higher
Education and Training:

Whether his department has any plans in place to deal with the
call for free higher education and training; if not, why not;
if so, what plans?

CO269E

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, I think to
a large extent, I have responded to this question. However, for
purposes of answering as I have said, government‘s policy position
is that we support the notion of free higher education and training
for the poor and the working class, in particular. I would also like
to add that I have also asked the National Student Financial Aid
Scheme, NSFAS, to explore a model to support what we normally refer

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to as the ‗missing middle‘ and there is a lot of work that has been
put into that. At an appropriate time I will be able to share with
this House through, initially, the select committee the progress
that is being made on this front.

As I have said, we are supporting 405 000 students this year and we
have also put measures to improve the National Student Financial Aid
Scheme, NSFAS; government is committed. The issue of free higher
education for the poor is not a matter that has arisen from the
students last year. It is the matter that arose from the policies of
the ANC, even before it was in government. That is why it took the
measures that it took to introduce NSFAS.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is that
a point of order?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, the Minister is giving us the same answer
that he has given last time. Therefore, please bear with us, give us
something. We know there is a plan; now answer, please. Give us
something new, Minister, we are pleading with you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member, can I rule on that matter that is not a follow-up question.
Hon Minister, you may not even have to respond to that. Is there any
follow-up question?

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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I just want to check. When we talk about
free education – I am quite aware that we are not referring to
everyone - it excludes those who can afford. What are we talking
about? I know is a statistical question, which you may not be able
to answer now. However, it will be important to know that ...

... uma sikhuluma ngale mali yemfundo yamahhala ... [... if we are
talking about the money for free education ...]

... how much are we talking about so that as a country we can
prepare ourselves because it might affect other programmes from
other departments? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I think there are two
processes that are underway that at the end will have to be
combined. In exploring the issue of the ‗missing middle‘, the
National Student Financial Aid Scheme is indirectly beginning to
answer that question on who cannot afford. First of all, we have
agreed that this limit of NSFAS of R122 000 has been there for
donkey‘s ages. All those whose families earn more that R10 000, i.e.
R12 000 and R15 000 a month we say they can afford, and that has to
be revised to begin with. However, over and above that we have also
asked NSFAS to look at who is the ‗missing middle‘. How much are we
talking about? Therefore, those are the things that, as I have said,
I will be coming back to share with the House, initially, through
the select committee to say here is a proposal on addressing the

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‗missing middle‘. Therefore, that is one process that should assist
us.

However, the other process is the Presidential Commission which is
currently underway. It should actually be able to help us to say,
who is it that cannot afford and how do we actually address that.
Therefore, I am sure that the commission will possibly benefit from
the work that NSFAS is actually doing so that it can be able to
pronounce on that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, you would note that the principal who sponsored the
question is hon Samka. She is sitting just behind the Minister. I
could not see her. Let me give her the opportunity to first make a
follow-up question. Therefore, I will first allow her before I
proceed with the other members.

Ms P C SAMKA: Sekela Sihlalo, ndanelisekile ziimpendulo
zikaMphathiswa. Enkosi. [Hon Deputy Chairperson, I‘m satisfied hon
Minister‘s answers. Thank you.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Minister, you referred yourself to the policy
or the question for free education as part of the ANC‘s policy. Now,
my question is part of the ANC‘s policy for the past 20 years,
nothing has been done about that. The crisis of free education
became a crisis now in the past two years. As we are sitting here

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today, it is not only a question of last year, it started up again
or in last term. As we are sitting here today there is a strike at
the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University.

I just want to refer you also to why only now a Presidential
Commission whilst it has been part of your policy for 20 years? Are
you playing for time because –as the other colleague has said - we
get the same answer about plans, frameworks and you need to get to
the answer? The following things have been done: The DA made an
amendment to the budget which made it possible that you could
subsidise universities this year. Why was that not accepted? If
there is seriousness in this government to address education, why
has it spent R2 million on three VIP jets that could have funded
16 227 Bachelor of Science, Bsc, graduate students? Is the actual
reason that you are waiting for the amendment of the Higher
Education Bill, which is now the form of state capturing that you
can use to intervene in any tertiary institution? Also, that does
not make sense because in the end you will still be responsible for
the fees. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Labuschagne, you
may want to criticise the ANC, but you cannot really and honestly
stand up in this House and say nothing has been done about free
higher education. Fifty billion rand is a lot, and maybe to some
members of the DA that means nothing because they don‘t know what it

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is like to be poor. Go and ask the poor students who have benefitted
from NSFAS, and they will tell you what is it that has changed.

Uma ungakaze ulambe ngeke wazi ukuthi kunjani ukuphuma endlaleni.
[If you have never been hungry you won‘t know how it feels like to
get out of hunger.]

Millions of South Africans ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Julius, why are on your feet?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. The
Minister referred to the DA members that they do not know what it is
to be poor. I think the Minister has long forgotten what it is like
to be poor. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, hon
member, that is not a point of order. Will you take your seat?
[Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: It is a point of order, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, it
is not a point of order. It is a political statement that you are
making now.

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Mr J W W JULIUS: I am not done and then you made a ruling.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are
debating with the Minister with the Minister on what the Minister
said. I was trying to caution you not to engage to a point where we
are now debating what the Minister is responding to.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I withdraw the debating part, Chairperson. Can I
raise my point of order?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes.

Mr J W W JULIUS: The Minister stated that the DA members do not know
what it is to be poor. I think you need to ask the Minister to
withdraw that statement because it is not a fact, unless you can
tell the Minister that I know that all the DA members have been born
very rich in this country.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Minister, can you proceed with your response, please.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, but I
would also like to say ...

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson ...

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Minister, just take your seat.

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... you cannot suppress us in this House. You need
to make a ruling. You cannot suppress us, please. We have a right in
this House. You cannot forever protect and protect as if we are not
here; we are here.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No,
please take your seat. It‘s fine, take your seat. No, hon members,
there is nothing untoward here. Every member has the right and every
member is protected. If you keep on behaving like this you will
never get the correct answer. You have the right to ask a question,
that is why we have the session. Equally so is the Minister entitled
to respond to the questions as put to him. The Minister is busy
responding and now we want to turn the response into a political
debate. There is no unruliness; I have not heard the Minister
insulting anybody; I have heard the Minister making a statement. If
I were - without even ... I‘m still responding to that and I will
allow you; you may just take your seat.

I did not want to get into this but so far I heard the Minister, and
he said some members of the DA, not unless we want to consult
Hansard. But in so far ... No, no, no, hon member, I heard the
Minister saying some members of the DA ... Can we allow the Minister
to conclude his response, please?

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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, that is
exactly what I said, some – in fact, I should have said many rather
than some members of the DA [Interjections.] do not know what it is
like to starve. It is true; it is a fact. [Interjections.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Minister, can we just allow the point of order.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, the point of order is that in
questions the Rule is that we should not ask any Minister or the
President about a personal opinion or how he feels about anything.
Therefore, why is the Minister being allowed to give a statement
based on his feeling and opinion? Can you overrule that, please
because that is not part of it? You in your own words said the
Minister made a statement but hon Jacques Julius when he raised the
question you said he is not allowed to make a statement. So, what is
the difference here between the Minister and the member of this
House in doing oversight? The Minister must answer the question
because many of the Ministers, maybe all of them, are ducking and
diving the facts in this House. Therefore, will the Minister refrain
from cheap politics and face on the fate of the education of the
poor children and young people in this country, of which 67% does
not have work. Thank you.

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, just be in order. That is exactly what I was avoiding
earlier on. This is exactly what I was avoiding of turning a
question‘s session into a political debating session. If you had
listen to that caution earlier on, we would not have been in this
kind of a situation. A point of order is raised but the point of
order is more of a political statement than a point of order. Can we
allow the Minister to conclude his responses to the question? Is
that a point of order or what point are you rising on, hon member?

Moh T J MOKWELE: A ke tlhagise gore sekgoa sona ga ke se itse mme ke
batla go tshwaela jaana: Modulasetilo, re ne re ituetse tota fao
Ntlo eno e go tlhopha. Re kopa gore o re tshware ka go lekalekana.
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Ms T J MOKWELE: I must put it on record that I do not know English.
However, I want to let you know that we were very happy for you to
have been elected into this House. We ask that you treat us
equally.]

Do not put politics into your judgement; we are pleading with you.
Do not be emotional, just ...

... nwa metsi a a maruru, o kgone go diga makgwafo. Fa o dira jaana
... [... remain calm ...]

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... we will deal with that tendency of yours in 2019. We will take
that seat. I assure you. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I take
the question and the last part of it I don‘t know what it means, but
it is fine. Hon Minister, can you conclude your answer to the
question?

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, over and
above , money from the fiscus that goes into NSFAS ...

I should

also have added, Chairperson, that we have got just under a billion
rand from the National Skills Fund that we have set aside for scarce
skills. In fact, no poor child who has been admitted at university,
for instance, to do engineering can say, ―I have no money to study‖.
I challenge all hon members that if you know such a student, bring
that student to our department. We will fund that student from the
scarce skills fund as part of prioritising those skills that the
country has a huge shortage of. It is a grant, a bursary and it does
not have to be paid back. It is part of our priorities in terms of
skills that we do not have.

Therefore, a lot has been done. I don‘t what the strike is about at
the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University. I wish I knew. I don‘t
know why the hon member is raising that issue. Why only a
Presidential Commission now? I think that question really can best
be answered by the President because as far as we know as the

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department, the President felt that the main way through which we
should try and resolve the impasse between the students, government
and universities was to go this route. We are urging, as the
department, everybody to support and participate in this process.

I don‘t know which jets the hon member is talking about. I don‘t
know which jets have been bought. I am not aware of that. Now, the
hon member, as I am sitting down, says I am making a cheap political
statement. To say that this government has done nothing about free
higher education means that, if my statement is worth 10 cents, her
cheap political statement is worth half a cent. Thank you very much.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, I just want to stand correctly. I
did not say to the Minister that he did not do anything. I said, why
did it take him 20 years and waited until free education became a
crisis before addressing it. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, thank you. That was not a point of order. Hon member, that
brings us to the conclusion on the questions to the Minister of
Higher Education. Probably, it could be that the behaviour is
informed by some other natural and biological things, which need to
be addressed. Can we then suspend the business of the day for an
hour! Go and have lunch, sort out the glucose issue then we will
come back and continue with questions.

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Business suspended at 13:22 and resumed at 14:30.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I really don‘t know. I think we
can better deal with some other things outside. Hon members, we
proceed with Question Time. As agreed this morning, the Chief Whip
would address some outstanding issues. They have been addressed.
Deputy Minister Surty will respond to questions on behalf of
Minister Nathi Mthethwa. For now, we will proceed with the question
session on behalf of members of the executive. For Questions on
Health, we welcome the hon Minister Motsoaledi, again. You may
proceed.

Launch of mobile APP

63.

Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of
Health:

What have been the challenges and achievements since the launch
of the mobile application by his department to facilitate
efficient, point-of-care access to up-to-date revised
guidelines and new medicine information?

CO247E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members, this
question asked about the efficiency of ... [Interjections.]

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just a minute. Pardon?
[Interjections.] We are dealing with ... No. We are dealing with
Questions on Health. [Interjections.] No. Sorry. [Laughter.] It is
Question 63, asked by the hon Mthethwa from KwaZulu-Natal. Hon
Motsoaledi.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chair, I was just saying this
question is about the challenges and achievements of point-of-care
access to the up-to-date, revised guidelines and new medicine
information. The question refers to the system that we launched in
November 2015, a system called Standard Treatment Guidelines, or
STG.

Standard Treatment Guidelines is a cellphone or tablet application
that guides health workers, especially doctors, on treatment
guidelines. In other words, it gives them indications of a
particular disease and what they can do for it. It can help them
calculate dosages, especially for children, because those are very
complex. It can show them the contra-indications for that particular
medicine. It shows them what side-effects they can expect when
giving that medicine to patients.

For ordinary people, however, those who are not doctors, and
especially hon members who are doing oversight, the application can
actually show the address, phone number and manager of each and
every health facility in the country. It can even direct you there.

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In other words, if you are here, now, and want to know where any
clinic around here is, that application can show you who you must
phone and what the address is. It can even direct you there, because
it is linked to the mechanism that gives directions.

It can also help doctors to help us directly with drug stock-outs.
At the moment, hon members are aware that if there is no medicine in
a particular clinic, that fact might appear in the newspapers. If
you phone the chief executive officer, he or she might lie to you.
With this application, if a doctor orders any medicine and it does
not arrive, they don‘t have to tell any manager. They just click on
the cellphone and the information comes to us, directly, in
Pretoria. We will know immediately. We don‘t have to ask managers or
district managers, who, after making a mistake, might lie to us. So,
that is what this application can do.

If you feed it with enough information about your weight, your
height, your blood pressure and your eating habits, it can roughly
predict your chances of having a heart attack. It can tell you that
your chances are 80% if you behave in a certain way. If the
information you entered is true, it will tell you that your chances
are 80% and request you to please do something about it. That is
what this application can do.

We are very proud of this application. Usually, when one has
applications like this, they are either made in the USA, somewhere

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in the European Union, in Russia or in China. This one is homemade
by the Medical Research Council, MRC, here in South Africa. It‘s our
own invention. The good thing about it is that, since we launched it
in November, it has been downloaded 21 655 times.

Every time somebody, like a doctor or nurse, or whoever, downloads
it, looking for information, we know. We even know the cellphone
number of the person who downloaded it. It has already been
downloaded 12 655 times here, at home. We discovered that it is also
being used internationally – and it has been downloaded 2 000 times.
That means 2 000 health workers who don‘t belong to South Africa,
but to other countries, have downloaded this information and made
use of it.

This has also helped to give us something that we were not looking
for, but which is good. We are now able to know what information
health workers, especially young doctors, are looking for. We have
discovered, since the launch in November, that most of the
information they are looking for is on the treatment of high blood
pressure. We didn‘t know before this that there is a lot of
information needed. So, this will help us to concentrate on that
when we go and train young doctors.

It has also shown us at what time of the day people are looking for
more information. We found that most of the information downloads
are between 21:00 and 03:00. This reflects something to us: Most of

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the senior doctors have gone and the young doctors need guidance,
but they have nobody to guide them. So, they move over onto the
application.

The reason I am excited about it telling us what is happening about
high blood pressure is that it is merging the results of what we got
from the Council of Medical Schemes, a statutory body that controls
medical aids. In their last annual report last year, they stated the
biggest expenditure by medical schemes is on high blood pressure.
They even said it needs a population-wide intervention. We need to
intervene.

I am telling you this because what it means is this. Do not just
issue pills. Intervene. Given one of my interventions on high blood
pressure, being high expenditure and an item on which many doctors
are looking for help, it means that when we said we are reducing the
salt intake in food, we were right. When we said we were gazetting a
reduction of salt intake in bread, in brining chicken, in spices, in
cereals and all the other items in which we have reduced salt, it
means we were dead right. This application shows that and that is
why we are so happy about it.

As for the problems, just like with any other application, you
initially need the Internet. You need connectivity. Once you have
downloaded it on your cellphone or tablet, you can use it in any
rural area. However, for the initial download, you have got to be in

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an area that has Internet access. Once it is on your system, you can
go to any hospital or clinic and use it without any problem.

Another small challenge is that it doesn‘t work on Blackberry. It
works only on Android, Apple and Windows, which we have added
recently. So, if you have a Blackberry, you will be in trouble.
There are only three steps you go through to use it. It will take
about three minutes, and then you have the biggest amount of
information in your life.

What is it actually? What it means is this. We have taken all the
medical text books, that whole medical library which a doctor or
medical health worker would have had to consult for some minutes or
hours for reference. We have taken it all and loaded it onto a
cellphone, right at your fingertips. That is what this application
is all about. Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I thank the hon Minister
for the technology that he has in the department. Keep it up. I have
no further questions.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, arising from the Minister‘s
response: How often and by whom are these Standard Treatment
Guidelines and essential medicines updated, and when was the
information last updated? Thank you.

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you repeat the question,
please?

Mr J W W JULIUS: How often and by whom are these Standard Treatment
Guidelines in the application and essential medicines updated, and
when was the last update done?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: When last was the application
updated?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, as it happens, in
medicine, when one has guidelines, one has to update them, because
they change. For instance, the World Health Organisation changes the
guidelines on the treatment of HIV all the time. As I speak, we are
busy changing the guidelines.

As hon members know, in my budget speech, in May, I announced that
South Africa is now moving to the test-and-treat system for HIV. We
are not on test-and-treat yet. We still depend on the CD4 T-cell
count. Remember, we used to treat people when their CD4 counts got
to 200. Then, we moved to 350 and then, 500.

From 1 September, there is no more CD4 count. If you are HIVpositive, go onto treatment, immediately. That is called test-andtreat. It is not yet on the application, but we are busy adding it,
and from 1 September, you will find that change there. We will also

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change the application as every treatment guideline changes. Thank
you.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Deputy Chairperson, the hon Minister says the
application can only work where there is a Wi-Fi or Internet
connection. Between you and me – village boys – there is no
connectivity at all where we come from. Like you, I want to believe
that such an application is needed in those rural villages where
there is no connectivity. My question is: What are your department
and other departments that deal with issues of communication and
information and communications technology, ICT, doing in order for
this application to also work and save lives in the rural villages
where we come from?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, no. I never said that.
The hon member did not listen properly. I said that to download the
application onto a cellphone or tablet, one would need to be in an
area where there is the Internet. However, once it has been
downloaded, one can take it to any rural area and use it at any
time.

We would be exaggerating if we said that no doctor in the rural
areas has ever, not even for one week, been to an area where there
is Internet coverage for the sole purpose of downloading this
application and come back. They could easily do that. It would be an

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exaggeration to believe that people are so locked up in the rural
areas that they cannot go to an area like that.

It‘s like this free Wi-Fi. If you go to Tshwane where there is free
Wi-Fi, you don‘t find it everywhere, but there are areas you go to
and find that when you stand there, you can actually use it. So, you
only need to be in a connected area to download this one to your
tablet or cellphone. Once it‘s there, you can go to any part of the
country or the world and you are able to use it.

On the issue of connectivity, I am sure you are aware that we have
asked the Department of Communications to start with clinics,
especially in the rural areas, when they extend broadband. We are
waiting for that, but it does not stop doctors from using these
Standard Treatment Guidelines. They are also using it in the rural
areas, as I speak. Thank you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, arising from the hon
Minister‘s response: Have any of the medical facilities experienced
drug shortages in any of the provinces since the launch of this
application, in November 2015?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, hon member, there is a
question here on drug shortages. There is a specific question in
this session and I am going to answer it.

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All I was saying was to add that doctors can also use this
application to report stock-outs. So, the hon member should be a bit
patient. When we get there, I will give her all the answers about
drug stock-outs.

Mme T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, re ne re kopa kgokaganyo ya tiragatso
eo, re tle re e leke re bone gore a e ya dira, go direla gore fa o
tla gape go tla go re rerela, re bo re go bolelela gore nnya ga o re
bolelele nnete. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, can we get the connection to that
action so that we can be able to test if it works. We want to ensure
that when you come back to preach to us, we must be able to tell if
you are lying.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It‘s a request that I would have
thought the hon member would have suggested that the House
facilitate that process. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, I already made that
offer when I was presenting. I have already said so. I said even you
could use it during your oversight visit if you want to know where
the clinic is.

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Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Many of you ... Chairperson ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you listen now? Can you
listen to the response?

Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I am answering, hon member.

Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, order, please!
Order, hon members!

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I said every person can find a use for this.
You are not going to look at the side-effects or dosages for the
treatment of hypertension because you don‘t prescribe to anybody.
However, if you are hypertensive, it can tell you about some of the
things you feel after taking tablets for hypertension. So, it‘s not
only for health workers. Anybody can use it, and I made that offer.
So, anybody who wants to see it can download it. [Interjections.]

The only problem is that she says she wants to test whether it is
working! Ma‘am, 21 000 health workers in the country have been using

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it and 2 000 people have been using it, internationally. I don‘t
know why you want to test it now, but you are allowed to!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, no. That was the
last question. I am sorry, the hon Mokoena. That was the fourth
follow-up question. Yes, hon member Julius?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, my point of order is on the
response to one of the follow-up questions that the Minister gave,
saying he assumed it referred to Question 65 on the unavailability
of medicines. The follow-up question by the hon Labuschagne was
actually different. It was in terms of the application, and
specifically, which medical facilities experienced shortages. The
question was in terms of the application. So, it‘s a slightly
different question. Therefore, I would request that the Minister
answers this question, if he will, as it is a slightly different
question. [Interjections.] Seeing that these questions also ... Can
you protect me, please, Chair?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am happy that you are raising
it. A member is now asking for protection. Can we maintain order so
that we can listen to what other members are saying?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Seeing as these questions are coming from members
of different political parties in this House, different provinces,
even, the question cannot be mixed. It‘s slightly different. The

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meaning of the question might not be fully understood by the
Minister – I give him that – but the Minister cannot decide that
this question is the same as that one. This is in terms of the
application.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright. Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, what he meant was that
we need to have done an assessment of whether, after getting the
application, the issue of medicine stock-outs improved. My answer
was that this application was not directed at medicine stock-outs.
It so happens that it also has that function.

I said there is a question about medicine stock-outs. We have
special applications that were specifically designed for medicine
stock-outs and I am going to answer it. This one is just an
additional function. When the MRC added it, they were not really
doing it for us to trace medicine stock-outs on it. It just so
happens that if a doctor wants to report it, he can do so.

So, we have never evaluated it. We evaluate the others, which I am
going to come to and even give you figures on.

NHI pilot projects

90.

Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Health:

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What progress has been made on the 11 National Health Insurance
pilot projects since the last government report to Parliament
in 2015?

CO274E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, for the past three financial
years we have submitted to Parliament assessment reports
demonstrating progress in the NHI pilot sites. We have decided to
submit to Parliament reports of our assessment, rather, Chairperson,
we have not submitted to Parliament reports of our assessment
whereby we will be assessing ourselves and being subjective. Rather
we opted to submit an objective and scientific report, done by an
outside independent organisation. In other words, we have chosen not
to come to Members of Parliament or to the NCOP or the hon
representatives to give you information based on what we, ourselves,
have done. We have decided that we ask outside agencies who do
assessments. Just like the Auditor-General who, as an independent
agency, come and give you a report on how we are dealing with
finances.

Now, since 2015, we have, as we have been doing, an organisation
that is doing this assessment. Unfortunately, they had just
finalised and presented it to the National Health Council, NHC what you call technical Ministerial and Members of the Executive
Council Meeting, Minmec - and is going to the NHC, which is a
statutory body, in September. I, personally, have not seen it. So, I
am really appealing to the hon member to be patient and allow me to

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wait for that report and give it to you. It will answer all the
questions that you are asking rather than me going to do guesswork,
if you can bear with me.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, just to get clarity on that.
So, there is an undertaking by the Minister that the NCOP as a
Council will get a progress report on all the 11 NHI pilot projects.
I just need to get clarity on that. It is not my follow up question.
I just need to get clarity because the Minister said he will provide
it. Just to ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon members, can I hear what hon Julius is
saying.

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... get clarity and also for our minutes to be in
order; so that the executive committee in the NCOP can also take
note of what we are to expect from the Minister. Before the Minister
answers, can I ask my follow-up question also?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Please do so.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Minister, seeing that these are pilot projects we
do not really need to know the progress before we learn from them.
So, my question is: Seeing that these are pilot projects, what have
we learned from them and also what is the status of the private
doctors‘ buy-in to the NHI? Thank you, Chair.

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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: But that is exactly what I have been
preaching. All the questions he is asking are about assessing what
is happening. How many doctors in the private sector, from which
areas, have bought-in? All I am saying is, we have elected to get an
outside agency so that it becomes objective and scientific. And I am
assuring the hon member that when the report is ready we will submit
it, as we always do, to Parliament. We will submit it to you. It is
not a secret report. That is all I am asking for. Other than me
sitting here and saying, no in this area this is what we achieved.
We want it to be scientific. If you can check, just like the issue
of the infant mortality rate and maternal mortality rate, we do not
do them on our own because we will be very subjective and try to
make ourselves look good. We get outside agencies, like the Medical
Research Council, MRC, like the NHC, etc, to do the whole
evaluation.

This is what we have done here. And all I am saying is I have not
even seen that report but I know they have finalised it and we will
bring it when it is ready. Yes, I am assuring you. You can minute it
actually. Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I saw the hand of hon Engelbrecht followed
by hon Dlamini and the last member will be hon Labuschagne.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, hon Minister thank you very much for
that discussion regarding the NHI and the roll out of NHI. It is

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going to be critical to have a sound financial model to do the rollout. Now with the reports of Government Employees Medical Scheme,
Gems, facing insolvency, can you please tell this House how you
intend to mitigate that in terms of the roll out of NHI?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The hon member is talking about this article
and somehow I suspected that this is going to come because this is
what this article is saying. It is talking about Gems. There is no
relationship between Gems and NHI.

AN HON MEMBER: Yes.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Honestly. And it is unfair that something
that is happening in Gems is now directed to NHI. It is prejudice,
the same type of prejudice. In other words because Gems is state run
and they belief ... Yes, it is prejudice. If you remember, in 2010
there was a lot of prejudice against South Africa as an African
country whether it was be able to hold the 2010 World Cup. Just a
few weeks before the 2010 World Cup there was a mishap in Angola
during the African Cup of Nations – if you remember – where people
were ambushed and that was projected to South Africa all over the
world. It happened in Angola, 4 000 kilometres away, but they said
this is exactly what is going to happen. Now, this thing is
happening to Gems and they say is going to happen to NHI. I do not
know how you bring the link. For your information, the story they
wrote here about Gems, I am the one who warned the principal officer

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– I‘m saying so, openly. I warned him that he is going to get into
trouble on what he is doing, because I did not agree with what they
were doing in Gems. So, why do you believe I will repeat the same
thing in NHI?

I went to warn him to say this is what Gems is doing, please stop it
because there is no way you can run a medical aid scheme in this
manner. I am the one who did so last year, if he is honest. And I
did so during the negotiations when public servants were looking for
29% increment in the medical aid subsidy. I picked up these things
and I said, no, please do not do this. So, there is no way I am
going to repeat it in NHI and there is no relationship between Gems
and NHI. Thank you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Deputy Chair, let me ask an NHI question. Hon
Minister, thank you very much for the responses. On the issue of
NHI, I just want to know, how far are we, as a country, in terms of
the implementation? I‘m just checking the status of the NHI not the
pilot.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, we are at the
preparatory stage. You know, I am at pains because this is a new
concept and a very complex one for that matter. I am at pains to
mention that NIH is not an event; it is a very lengthy process. It
is not a sprint, but a long marathon. In the White Paper we said, as
we are developing policies, we are also making preparations. For

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instance, one of the preparations of NHI is the ideal clinic. How to
turn clinics into what you call an ideal clinic model? And we have
defined what an ideal clinic is and what it can do. When we started,
not even a single clinic in the country matched that ideal standard,
but today as I am speaking 310 clinics have reached that status.

It is only 10% of the clinics but it shows that it is a good start.
That is preparation. The other thing, the ideal clinic is not only
function but also a design - a new model of designing clinics taking
into consideration HIV/Aids, Tuberculosis, TB, and communicable
diseases. When all our clinics, were built, all those things were
not taken into consideration. We have included that. The new clinics
that are being built, as I am saying, are following that model. For
instance, in the O R Tambo District, which is an NHI pilot, when we
sent engineers they found that eight clinics there cannot even be
refurbished. They have gone beyond refurbishment in terms of
disrepair. They need to be rebuilt.

As I am speaking, we are about to finish them and we are following
this design of an ideal clinic model. We found the same thing in
Vhembe, in Limpopo, which is also a pilot. So, all over we are busy
with preparations. But coming to the policy itself, you are aware
that the closing date has just passed recently. We have got about
200 inputs that are being studied by the streams. You know that we
have six work streams that are working on all these policies of NHI.
When they finish, we are going to put that together, and of course,

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take it to Cabinet and then it will become an Act that will then be
enacted and through which we are going to facilitate NHI. So, we are
in the middle of that process. Thank you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, hon Minister, I would like to know,
what is the time frame within which the report must be completed and
whether that time frame falls within the time frame that has been
set for the completion of the pilot projects? I would like to know
the time frame and whether the report will be subject to the
finishing of all the projects or will be done outside the time frame
set for the completion of some of the projects.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chair, I said I was told that this
report is complete. I have not seen it because it has not yet been
handed to me but it has been presented to technical Minmec or NHC.
Now the real National Health Council, the political one, is only
sitting in September. Because, just like the Auditor-General – I‘m
sure you are aware Chairperson – who cannot release a report to the
public before coming to the relevant Minister, showing them the
report and saying, these are my findings, etc, and release it after
you have answered. This is just what the report is waiting for,
because it is going to be talking about the findings that have been
made in the provinces. We want all provinces to answer for
themselves and say, ―Yes, I agree with the findings.‖ And if they
don‘t, give scientific reasons. It doesn‘t mean it will be changed
if they do not like it but they must give a scientific reason and

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say that there is a mistake and these are the reasons. So, we do not
want to release it and thereafter have a situation where provinces
will be jumping all over saying, ―No, no, no, this is not about me.‖
This is ... You know.

I have seen that at the World Health Assembly, when the director of
the World Health Organisation started giving statistics about
maternal mortality, especially on the African continent, every
Minister raised their hand saying, ―No, that is not my country, no.‖
And they said: ―But we got it from your officials.‖ So, we want to
avoid that. Take it to the NHC where all the MECs and Heads of
Department, HODs sit, where the Surgeon General of the SA Military
Health Services sits, SAHS, where SA Local Government Association,
Salga sits, and say, these are our findings and if anybody has got a
query we will point. Once that has been done then we release it.
Thank you. So, that National Health Council is only taking place in
September, I don‘t know which date.

Improvement of HIV treatment

64.

Ms T K Mampuru (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

Whether his department has any strategies to improve the
adherence of treatment of HIV-positive persons, especially
amongst the youth; if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details?

CO248E

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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, this question is
very important, it is about adherence to treatment of HIV-positive
people, especially amongst young people. It is a very brilliant
question because many of us do not understand people who are HIV
positive and are on treatment - it is lifelong, meaning it lasts for
the rest of a person‘s life. Somewhere in life, HIV-positive people
can be very enthusiastic and somewhere down the road, they just lose
hope and become discouraged.

We have had many people who were doing very well but all of a sudden
they just deteriorated because they sometimes feel lonely, get tired
or feel life is unfair to them. It is surprising because people who
are diabetic and hypertensive also go on lifelong treatment but they
cope. Somehow, people lose hope with this HIV – it may be because of
its history.

So, for that reason, there are mechanisms that we use to encourage
HIV-positive people. One of the best mechanisms is what we call
antiretroviral treatment adherence clubs, where people who live in
one area and are HIV positive come together to support each other.
They sit in a group and start motivating each other.

Currently, we have 6 627 antiretroviral treatment adherence clubs in
the whole country. We also have 2 216 clubs for psychosocial
support. The antiretroviral treatment adherence clubs are for
members who are stable; we just want to keep them motivated. Once

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you lose your motivation; you will need counsellors because you have
lost faith. It is like being a believer in some church, whereby once
you lose faith, you should go to a church conference to try and
regain your faith or fellow members will have to call and motivate
you or ask the bishop to talk to you in order to motivate you.
People who do not lose faith will routinely just continue going to
church. What we are doing is that we have antiretroviral treatment
adherence clubs and psychosocial support groups. We have
2 216 psychosocial support groups in the country but we also have
our NGOs like Right to Care and Médecins Sans Frontières, MSF.

I am sure you are aware of MSF, that is Doctors Without Borders.
They are using the abbreviation MSF which is French and it stands
for Médecins Sans Frontières. They help HIV-positive people all over
the world including in our country but to add more impetus, during
the Aids Conference which was held in July in Durban this year, we
have launched another application which is called medication
adherence application. I have publicly launched it during the
conference. This application reminds the youth of their clinic and
hospital visits. I have launched it with youth groups who attended
the conference. Young people lead busy lives; they are either
attending schools or universities and might forget their
appointments. That application reminds them of their date to go to
the hospital or clinic. It also reminds them not to forget their
medicine schedule - that it is time to take tablets. Anyone can
download this application and it will help them.

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Apart from that, last year we launched an application called B-Wise
for young people. B-Wise is a youth-focused online service that
provides young people with health information and allows them to
have their health-related questions answered within a period of 48
hours. The last time I checked, there were about 30 000 youths in
South Africa who have already affiliated to it.

We also have MomConnect. I want to remind you of MomConnect which we
launched in 2014 where we are in contact with all pregnant women on
their cellphones. Every two weeks we send messages relevant to their
period of pregnancy which gives them information on, for example,
how many weeks are they pregnant and what they must do and what they
must expect. We now have 800 000 women who registered on MomConnect.
Now, what does these have to do with this question? It is because
among those pregnant women - those who are HIV positive, the
messages sent to them will not only be about the pregnancy, but it
will also be about prevention of mother-to-child transmissions,
PMTCT, and the fact that they must know that if they are HIV
positive, the treatment is lifelong. Even after delivering the baby,
they are not going to stop because they are on what we call B+,
meaning treatment for life. All these things have the effects of
keeping us in touch with people who are HIV positive, be it the
youth, pregnant women or the general public. These mechanisms, which
include the antiretroviral treatment adherence clubs, the
psychosocial support groups, the NGOs like Right to Care, the
Medication Adherence Mobile which we launched in Durban, B-Wise,

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MomConnect, all of them put together are trying to encourage HIVpositive people to stand faithful in taking treatment for the rest
of their lives.

Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Motlatšamodulasetulo, ke leboga Tona ya rena
ka dikarabo tše dibotse tše a re filego tšona. Se se bontšha gore re
tšwela pele bjale ka setšhaba. Kua Tubatse le Lephalale, le ge re na
le meepo ye e lebanego, baswa ba rena ga ba na mešomo. A nke ke
botšiše Tona gore bao ba se nago šedi, ba sa hlokomelego ona
mafarahlahla a le bolelago ka ona, naa ba ka kgona go lemoga le go
kwešiša gore ge ba le ka mo gare ga mathata a kokwanahloko ye, ke
eng se ba ka se dirago? A le na le kgopolo goba lenaneo la go
ikopanya le Kgoro ya Tlhabollo ya Setšhaba gore bao ba sa
hlokomelego re kgone go ba tšea re ba iše meagong ya tsošološo ya
maphelo a bona gore ba kgone go lemoga gore ba swanetše go ba
setšhaba se se kaone. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph
follows.)

[Mrs T K MAMPURU: Hon Chairperson, thank you for the response by the
Minister. This shows that we have some progress as a nation. Even
though we have sufficient mines in Tubatse and Lephalale, the youth
are still unemployed. I need to ask the Minister what can possibly
be done since some people are not aware of these institutions
mentioned above, yet they are affected by this pandemic. Is there
ideas or any programme to engage with the Department of Social

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Development for the people to get access to these institutions? I
thank you.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, as I have said, the
question is about poor people in areas like Tubatse and Steelpoort
who might be unemployed and don‘t have cellphones and all that. I am
sure the question is about the fact that I have mentioned many
applications here. If you listen to what I said, we are not relying
on any particular method; there are many.

One of the most important is these antiretroviral treatment
adherence clubs. We are encouraging people to join these clubs.
Partners who helped us to establish these clubs are many; it is not
only the Department of Health. Remember, our recipe to fight
HIV/Aids in this country is through the South African National Aids
Council, Sanac, which is chaired by the Deputy President, who is
deputised by civil society. There are 19 sectors inside Sanac. We
have the youth, women, labour, researchers, people living with
HIV/Aids and sex workers, who were the last to join.

Everyone in South Africa who is affected in one way or the other by
HIV, belong to Sanac. We asked Sanac members to help us establish
these clubs. I don‘t even know some of the clubs because they were
established by NGOs or people themselves who have HIV/Aids. If they
need help, they usually come to us and we help them. Of course, the
Department of Social Development is part of Sanac because Sanac - as

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I have said, is chaired by the Deputy President, and has an IMC,
what we call the interministerial committee. Before Sanac sits, the
Deputy President calls the interministerial committee, where all the
relevant Ministers are. The Minister of Social Development also sits
in the meeting and explains the problems they have in Social
Development and put forward where they want achieve and where we
want help as a department. After that, a Sanac meeting is called
where civil society and all the Sanac members come together in a
plenary which I usually call a ‗Parliament of HIV/Aids‘. It is a
plenary of Sanac, where there are all these issues of adherence
where we advice each other on what to do. Any person will chose what
is suitable for them. For instance, I mentioned medication adherence
mobile application and I specifically mentioned university students
who are so busy that they might forget to go to the clinic or take
their medication as it is inconceivable for any university student
in this time and age to say they don‘t have cellphones. We believe
they have. We have asked every pregnant woman visiting the clinic,
who wants to be on MomConnect and does not have a cellphone, to
report - but nobody reported. We have 800 000 women who have already
registered. Nobody came and said she lives in a rural area and
doesn‘t have a cellphone. We have about 1 000 000 women who fall
pregnant in South Africa and about 200 000 of them go to private
hospitals and the rest come to us - maybe to make you understand the
significance of registering 800 000 pregnant women. So, you can see
it is a very significant number.

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Not a single woman came to complain that they can‘t get into the
system because of a lack of a cellphone. If you look at all these
things I have mentioned, everyone will choose whichever way of
connecting to us that is suitable for them. They can go to the
antiretroviral treatment adherence clubs, Right to Care or other
NGOs. They can use medication adherence mobile application,
MomConnect if they are pregnant or B-Wise, all can benefit them.
People choose whatever is relevant to the type of lifestyle they are
leading in order to adhere. Thank you.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, just as a way of historical
relevance, Minister. I am from North West, your National Health
Insurance, NHI, site is in ‗KK‘ – Kenneth Kaunda District
Municipality, which is a mining area, another part of it is
Rustenburg, which is also a mining area. In the past we have agreed
that such prevalences are mainly dominant in the mining area, even
though we understand that in the report TB surpasses HIV/Aids, but
there is historical relevance there. In terms of your adherence to
clubs and groups, would you concede that it seeks to deal away with
stigmatisation but also jerk up the motivation we so need so that
our people begin to take issues of medication and adherence very
serious? How should the community at large be able to respond to
issues that are impacting us, healthwise and otherwise? Thank you,
Minister.

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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I am not very sure if I
understood the question. Are you asking whether I am conceding that
this is happening? I understand about the link to NHI pilots, the
prevalence of HIV and TB but I am not sure what you are asking me to
do, to concede or what? You asked something about whether I am
conceding or not.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Are the adherence groups meant to jerk up what we
have been struggling with in terms of motivating our own people to
adhere to issues of medication? And I also want to understand how
issues of HIV/Aids impact all of us on the ground. I am not sure if
I have explained better this time.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Did you understand the question
now?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes. The answer is yes.

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Hon Deputy Chair, mine is with regards to taking
into consideration the adherence clubs and the applications. What
are the direct and indirect ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can you allow the
Minister, not me - allow the Minister to hear a follow up question
so that he can be able to respond.

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Ms G M MANOPOLE: Taking into consideration the issue of the
applications and the clubs, what are the direct and indirect
benefits of these associations - the clubs and the NGOs, towards
HIV. I am not only limiting this to HIV but I am also taking into
consideration that, it should also assist in physical matters of
health. What are the direct and indirect benefits of these
applications towards health issues?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, I am sure in the past you might
have heard, about organisations like alcoholic anonymous where
people who were alcoholics and those who have recovered or are in
the process of recovering come together for that purpose of sharing.
Organisations like this helped people who have common problems to
share about what they are experiencing. Of course it has benefits
beyond HIV/Aids, for the simple reasons that people who are HIV
positive do not have that as their only problem. They might also be
hypertensive or diabetic. The chance of getting cervical cancer
increases about four times in women who are HIV positive. They might
even develop that. When they come together, they share and talk
about how they feel and that they have and experience this and that.
In these adherence clubs, there are those people who are experts who
will help them. The aim is to keep them together and keep the faith
so that none of them lose courage on the way because this is like
running a very long marathon. I have seen even marathon runners
during the Olympics keeping in groups and communicating with each
other to motivate each other because they will be faced with that

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long distance, for example, 40 kilometres, and it is very difficult.
Even this people who are HIV positive, we want to keep them together
so that they don‘t feel lonely and feel that they are the only
people experiencing all the problems. They must know that there are
many other people who are going through the same experience. That is
the aim of these adherence clubs.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Deputy Chair, through you to the hon Minister, we
have learnt about the myriad of things that are being done to get
people involved in taking medication regularly and on time in the
right medication. I presume it is also going around for TB, which is
also a problem. I would like to know how to download these
applications. I got these applications accidentally, I tried to
download the applications like you said, but it is not available on
my phone.

I would like to know, investing all of these money ... Do you want
to ask me a question, hon Minister? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No. The Min ... [Laughter.]

Mr C HATTINGH: We are talking about a very serious problem in drug
administration. I would like to know what is being done to monitor
the efficiency of all these applications, groups adherence clubs?
Can you say that it is working? Was there a better adherence between

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2013 and 2015? Is there an upward trend? How do you determine that
what you are doing is actually working?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, remember that we
have a special branch in the department that deals with HIV/Aids,
maternal, children and adolescents health and TB. We have a special
branch and in that branch there are special chief directors and
directors at national level. We also have directors at provincial
level - people who are dealing with these issues, almost on an
everyday basis. We also have organisations like the clinicians
society. For instance, there is something called the
Pharmacovigilance unit, we don‘t just take a guesswork on side
effects.

Pharmacovigilance is a special unit that was established to check
around the country if the drug you are giving people is causing
something that was not intended for. It get reported immediately
that there has been an adverse event here and there and that is
checked by those Pharmacovigilance unit. How does it work? Because
they are in contact with doctors; they are in contact with each
other and with HIV Clinicians Society. We don‘t do things without
them. The South African Clinician Society is also part of Sanac. If
they detect something which they believe is not working, they will
inform Sanac that there are adherence clubs but tell them that from
the patients they see everyday in their clinics, this is what they
are detecting. It is something that we have to watch very carefully

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because, remember, we are running the world‘s biggest treatment
programme. We have 3,4 million people on treatment and it was
confirmed at the conference that it was the biggest. There is no way
that you can do that and not experience problems. We are always on
our tenterhooks because we know that running such a big programme,
it is likely that you will to get into some form of trouble and that
is why we are putting up all those structures.

Time and again as we say, we have organisations like United Nations
Programme on HIV/Aids, UNAids, the World Health Organisation, which
we call in to come and evaluate us. For instance, when a team of
27 organisations led by the World Health Organisation evaluated us,
one of the things they complained about was that we did not have a
unique patient identifier, meaning a special number for each and
every patient, so that if a patient taking antiretrovirals, ARVs, is
in the Eastern Cape and move to Gauteng or pass on or die, we will
be able to trace that patient. They showed us through that type of
evaluation where we have gaps and we have been working to close that
gap.

We have lot of structures that are helping us to monitor these
because we can‘t just give people ARVs, which are for life, in such
a big programme and not monitor it. If we don‘t monitor it we will
be in trouble, very serious trouble. For instance, you mentioned TB,
hon Hatting. TB is curable but once we miss it and the patient go
into multidrug-resistant tuberculosis, MDR-TB or extensively drug-

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resistant tuberculosis, XDR-TB, you have big problems. The side
effects are huge. I didn‘t know, I would have brought the champions
of TB here to show you. There was a young girl, who is from
Khayelitsha, right here - I remember, who I said has XDR-TB. She had
to take 20 000 tablets within a period of four years and she has
lost her hearing completely. We have just given her a cochlear
implant. She can hear now. One of the side effects was loss of
hearing. When we treat people for XDR-TB, we know that many of them
may lose their hearing. Yes, that is how it is because they get an
injection called streptomycin. They have to choose between their
lives and their sense of hearing. You either leave the people to die
or give them treat and they lose their hearing. Those are some of
the toughest choices. You can‘t let people make such tough choices
without any system of monitoring. We have to monitor them; to know
what [[where—sed15:24:26]] is happening. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That cannot be allowed as a
follow up question, hon Hatting. I have made a point. That was the
last follow up question. We then proceed to question number 105.

Vacancies at newly-built hospital

105. Ms T G Mpambo-Sibhukwana (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister
of Health:

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(1)

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Whether any vacancies have been filled at the newly-built
hospital in Mpumalanga; if not, why not; if so,

(2)

whether the provisions of the Employment Equity Act, 1998
(Act 55 of 1998), were complied with in this regard; if
not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO290E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, this is a very
unfortunate question, unfortunate in the sense that it asks whether
vacancies have been filled at the ―newly-built hospital in
Mpumalanga‖. However, there is no indication of the hospital‘s name.
It just says ―the newly-built‖, which means that I have to go and
look at the hospitals that are newly built in Mpumalanga.
[Laughter.]

I did so. I was polite enough to do so, only to find that the newest
hospital built in Mpumalanga was built more than a decade ago.
[Interjections.] Yes, it is exactly 16 years. So, I am not sure
whether that qualifies as new. Then I phoned the MEC and the head of
department about this ―newly-built hospital‖, but I could not find
it.

In order to answer the question, may I plead with the hon member to
provide name of the hospital in question? Then I will go and find
the answers and answer to the House. At the moment, I am really
lost.

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Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Deputy Chair and Minister, the newly built
hospital is newly renovated. It looks new when you see it. It is the
Sabie Hospital. It is called Sabie Hospital. The renovations have
been done to the extent that one can think it is new. Good work has
been done. It is called Sabie Hospital. I beg your pardon.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright. Hon members, order!

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Deputy Chairperson, please protect me.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Minister is prepared to
respond to the follow-up question.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, coincidentally, I worked
in Bushbuckridge in 1985, and I have been familiar with Sabie
Hospital since that time. I would not have considered it new under
any conditions, so I couldn‘t guess – but I know about the
renovations at the Sabie Hospital. All these renovations – all
renovations in the province – are supervised by our national head
engineer, but I wouldn‘t have imagined that when she said ―new‖, she
meant Sabie Hospital. That is a very old hospital.

If the member meant Sabie Hospital, may I be given the time to
respond again to this question?

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you comfortable with that?
We would then dispose of the question and proceed to Question 65
asked by the hon Dlamini.

Unavailability of medicines

65.

Ms L C Dlamini (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) What are the reasons for the unavailability of medicines in
some medical facilities in the country and (b) what action is
his department taking to deal with this in future?

CO249E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, that question nearly
caused trouble for me when I said ―still coming‖. I was speaking the
truth. The question is about availability of medicine, the reasons
for the unavailability of medicines in the country, and the action
the department is taking.

Hon Dlamini, let me start by saying that this problem, which used to
be very big in our medical facilities a year or so ago, is no longer
as common as it used to be. That is the first statement I want to
make. The number of facilities reporting medicine shortages has
reduced markedly, dramatically so in some cases. I am not saying it
no longer exists; I am saying it is no longer the way it used to be
a year ago. The type and number medicines unavailable at facilities
have also been reduced dramatically. When the problem was still

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prevalent, it was because of a multiplicity of many complex factors.
Many people thought it was simply a health care system failure.

There are many factors. Firstly, starting with the manufacturers,
some of which are overseas, you will order a particular drug and
they will tell you that the company no longer manufactures it. We
once had a crisis with bacille Calmette-Guérin, BCG – the
tuberculosis vaccine we give to newborns – because the French
company that manufactured it simply stopped production. We had to
rush to India to look for a new company. That may be the first
reason.

The second one might be the absence of active pharmaceutical
ingredients, APIs. The third one is the supply chain itself. The
supply chain consists of many people along the route that are
involved in this chain of supply. The last one might be the end
user, the nurse in the clinic not even knowing the needs, not even
knowing that he or she has to order. Even though the drug is there,
it is just not being ordered. We discover it when the patient has
run to the newspapers saying that when he or she went to a specific
clinic, it didn‘t have the drug.

Take antiretroviral drugs, ARVs, for example. It has been reported
many times that we have run out of ARVs. Chairperson, let me tell
you, we have a place in Centurion, Pretoria, where at any given
time, 10% of all the ARVs used in the country are stored. In other

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words, it is a residual stock. It is always there, waiting – in the
same way the Minister of Energy will have the petrol stocks. I am
sure you are familiar with something called fuel stocks being kept
somewhere in case there is trouble anywhere internationally with
regard to oil. So, we are doing the same thing with treatment. At
least 10% of ARVs must be kept by that company in Centurion, waiting
for a rainy day.

Now, you will find this in some clinics, but that 10% stock has not
been touched.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that a point of order, hon
member?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, my apologies for interrupting
the Minister. I would just like to check the time allocated for
answers by the Minister. What does your time say? I am a bit
concerned that we still have four Ministers after this, and if we
allow more than three minutes each time ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, the question is how much
time the Minister is left with to complete this question. I will
determine that. Allow me to allow the Minister.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: So, having defined where the problem lies –
at various levels – we decided to see whether we could arrest all

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these levels at one point, the end user. So, we have instituted two
systems. The first is called the stock visibility system, SVS, in
which we had a cellphone designed specifically for that reason and
distributed it to clinics. Once a week – and the stock visibility
system, by the way, only works in clinics, not hospitals – the nurse
takes the cellphone specifically designed for that and scans the
codes. Today, all medicines have barcodes. Regardless of whether it
is a tablet or liquid medication, it has a barcode. They scan it
with the cellphone. By scanning it, the codes are immediately sent
to Pretoria.

In Pretoria, we have an electronic map. On that electronic map, we
have every health facility in the country. We have every clinic in
the country, and the map has lights. Once the nurse scans and sends
it to the electronic map, if there is no shortage of that particular
drug, it blinks green on the map. If there is a shortage, but the
product is still available, the light is amber. If there is nothing,
it goes red immediately. Immediately when that happens, it sends an
SMS to the head of department in the specific province. That has cut
out the bureaucracy where they first had to rush and report it to
the director of pharmaceuticals in the district, who then had to
report to the head of the district, who then had to report to the
chief director, who then had to report to this and that. Now, the
information goes directly to the head of department. Why? It is
because there is accountability.

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There is no way the head of department could not have known. They
tell us that the nurse didn‘t tell them or that the district manager
didn‘t report anything. Now we know that once he has read it, it has
automatically told him. So, if there is no order, we will know that
the head of department knew but did nothing. Then you have one
person to punish, not a myriad of people to investigate. So, that is
the SVS – stock visibility system.

The first province to use the SVS was KwaZulu-Natal in 2014. Limpopo
started using the system in January 2015. In terms of drug stockouts, Limpopo was the worst, but this was cut dramatically. For
instance, as of June 2016, the ARV stock-out was reduced by 66%, the
tuberculosis stock-out by 49%, and vaccine by 42% in those
provinces. That is the first system.

The second is called Rx Solution. Rx Solution is only for hospitals
and the community health centres, the youth clinics. As I am
speaking, Rx Solution is used in 452 hospitals and community health
centres. We are left with only 87. What does the Rx Solution do?
Every time a doctor dispenses a medicine, it subtracts it. In other
words, every time the dispensary dispenses medicine to a patient,
the Rx Solution system subtracts it. It keeps on subtracting. When
it reaches a particular level in subtraction, it orders
automatically. It realises the level is critical and that an order
should be placed. That is how Rx Solution is used.

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So, we use both systems: the Rx Solution for hospitals and large
clinics and the SVS for all other clinics in the country. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. That
brings us to the end of questions to the Minister of Health. Let me
appreciate also ... although I could understand the undertone of the
question for clarity, let me appreciate that question, as it comes
back to us. It reminds us once more that, as members, in terms of
the Rules applicable to questions, the Minister has four minutes to
respond to a question. A member is allowed two minutes to ask a
follow-up question, not make a political statement. We should, at
all times, try and ensure that we do our work in a way that we can
be proud of.

The problem is that sometimes, hon Julius, when we start, we have so
much energy and only realise later that time is catching up with us.
[Interjections.] Alright, it is fine. I just thought that I should
clarify that – that I am guided by the clock for the time
allocations. That is why you find that I would always ask ...
alright. Let‘s proceed with the questions to the Minister of Human
Settlements. Chief Whip, please go to your microphone and address me
from there.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, thank you very
much for appreciating the special situation we find ourselves in. He
is tasked to go and address the memorial service of our late

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ambassador, Rev Stofile. He is going somewhere; I am not familiar
with the geography around here. So, the Minister of Sport and
Recreation is pleading that he jumps queue to allow him to be on
time. He is tasked to go ... I don‘t know the locality, but it is a
church somewhere this side. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon members! There is
nothing like ―not allowed‖. Have the two Ministers conferred and
agreed on the process? That must guide me.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: She has just arrived. The Minister of
Health and you were just a bit fast for negotiations to realise
that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright, there is an agreement
between the two Deputy Ministers. Therefore, let us allow the Deputy
Minister of Sport and Recreation to respond to Question 73 asked by
hon Moshodi from the Free State. In doing so, let me welcome the
Deputy Minister to the House.

Flagship programmes for the disabled

73.

Ms M L Moshodi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of Sport
and Recreation:

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Whether there are any specific flagship programmes targeted at
persons living with disabilities at grassroots level; if not,
why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

CO257E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson,
hon members to my colleague, thank you for agreeing to accommodate
our request today. The answer is, yes, there are programmes that are
inclusive of persons with disabilities; all 16 priority codes of the
Department of Sport and Recreation are inclusive of learners – both
boys and girls - with disabilities. The disability disciplines that
are included are, physically disabled, intellectually impaired, the
deaf, the blind and learners with special needs.

Each sporting code has categories and classifications for learners
to participate and compete from school, district, and provincial
levels right up to national levels. Let me say that the SA School
Sport Championship which takes place every year since December 2012
has sporting codes that have categories for disabled learners. We
are talking about wheelchair basketball, wheelchair tennis, the
intellectually impaired and the deaf football, intellectually
impaired netball. We also have different classifications for
physically disabled athletes for swimming, single and double
amputees arm or leg, cricket category for the blind learners, deaf
volleyball categories and goalball which is for the partially sited
or visually impaired and blind learners. Thank you, hon Deputy
Chairperson.

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Mof M L MOSHODI: Ke a leboha, Motlatsa Modulasetulo. Ha ke na potso
ya tlatsetso eo nka e botsang Motlatsa Letona bakeng sa Letona. Ke
lebohela dikarabo tseo a mphileng tsona. (Translation of Sesotho
paragraph follows)

[Mrs M L MOSHODI: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. I do not have a
follow-up question that I can ask the Deputy Minister for the
Minister. I am thankful for the response he has given me.]

Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Chairperson to the hon Deputy Minister,
children develop their sporting skills by having access to sporting
facilities and then playing the sports they love. In South Africa we
have a shortage of sporting facilities to serve the entire
population and that needs to be looked at. My question relates to
sporting facilities that are already in place. Has the department
put the necessary resources to, firstly, determine if all available
sporting facilities are accessible to people with disabilities so
they can also play and develop their skills? And importantly, the
existing facilities are not disability friendly, what is the
department doing in conjunction with other stakeholders to address
this?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson,
we have done a facilities audit. The national audit is talking about
the absence of facilities, the lack of facilities and the neglect of
facilities. As you may know, we have the municipal infrastructure

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grant, 15% of that component of the grant is ring fenced for sport
and recreation facilities, not only for the rolling out but also for
the upkeep and the maintenance thereof. We will certainly
proactively address that, like we do with all our facilities, in
order to make South Africa and all our sporting facilities as
inclusive and accessible as possible because that is part of our
policy. We are not apologising for that. Thank you.

African Diaspora Legacy Programme

99.

Mr C Hattingh (North West: DA) asked the Minister of Sport and
Recreation:

(1) How much was awarded to the African Diaspora Legacy
Programme for its duration;

(2) whether there are any audited financial statements relating
to the funding of the programme; if not, why not; if so,

(3) whether he will make the financial statements available; if
not, why not; if so, when?

CO283E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon House Chairperson,
yes, the award of the African Diaspora Legacy Programme was not made
from the national fiscus but funds from the national association,
and that being, the SA Football Association. And we have done that

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through the 2010 Fifa World Cup Local Organising Committee. The
total amount awarded was $10 million. The payment was made directly
from the Fifa account, so the relevant financial statements are
those of Fifa for the financial year concerned. May I just add that
all the financial statements are available on the website of Fifa.
Thank you.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon House Chair, I would like to know whether the
Deputy Minister is aware of any international investigation or a
warrant for the arrest of a South African who was involved in the
award of $10 million to the African Diaspora Legacy Programme.
Secondly, do I understand correctly that the money never came into
South African hands but it went from Fifa directly to the African
Diaspora Legacy Programme which happens to be a programme of the
department? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: House Chairperson, just
for the sake of the hon member, let me repeat that part of the
answer. The amount of $10 million was paid directly from the Fifa
accounts so the relevant financial statements are those of Fifa and
I repeat again, they are available on their website. Hon Deputy
Chairperson, with due respect to the hon members of the House, I am
not going to speculate as to who is being investigated and who is
going to be arrested or not. Let the law take its course. Thank you.
[Laughter.]

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Mr C HATTINGH: Is he aware? That is the question. Not speculating. I
would like to know whether he is aware of any investigation or
arrest.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hutting, he responded to
that question.

Mr C HATTINGH: He did not.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Deputy Minister, the
$10 million that was given then by Fifa to the Caribbean as a gift,
was it by authority and or agreement with the South African
government or it was only their decision? Can you just expand on
that one?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon House Chairperson,
it is difficult to decide and to speak on the financial statements
and dealings of other institutions. As I said, the money went
directly from Fifa to the legacy fund and that was part of the
Diaspora Legacy Programme that Fifa decided to do. I am not to
comment on that.

Mr M KHAWULA: On a point of order House Chairperson, the Deputy
Minister has not responded to my question. The question is: Was it
by authority and or with agreement of the South African government?
That is the question.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula.

Mr M KHAWULA: When they handed over the money to the Caribbean, was
it an authorisation by the South African government that we have to
do that [Inaudible.]. Was there any authority from ...
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Authority from?
Mr M KHAWULA: ... from the South African government who had handed
over the money to Fifa.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon House Chairperson,
I said I am not aware of any such thing. How can a Deputy Minister
in South Africa or any country speak to the accounts and the
financial statements of an institution that is independent and in
Switzerland? I cannot do that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, he has responded to
that question. Hon Labuschagne?

An hon member: He hasn‘t.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy House Chair to the Deputy Minister, I just
want to know if you can explain to us why did Fifa fund a
governmental programme of the South African government. Because what
you said is that they funded it directly, that was a governmental

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programme that we have oversight on. Why has it been funded directly
by Fifa?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chairperson,
quite frankly speaking, how do the hon members expect me to answer
for something that was done by an independent board like Fifa? I
mean the fact that such a position, House Chairperson ...
[Interjections.] No, no, hon member, please let me just ... Chair,
Chair, Chair ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: In the bidding process
... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: ... it is Fifa who
decides there will be a legacy trust fund and it will be
transparently done. And that is precisely why we say the statements
are available on the website of Fifa.

Development of sport leaderships and management

74. Ms L L Zwane (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of Sport
and Recreation:

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Whether there are any partnerships between his department and
sporting fraternity for the development of sport leaderships and
management; if not why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?

CO258E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, the
response is: Yes, there is partnership between the department and
the sporting fraternity for the development of sports leadership and
management. The Department of Sports and Recreation has entered into
an agreement with the sporting fraternities whereby the department
annually transfers funds to over 60 sports and recreation bodies,
NGOs and sport entities. Through these funds the sports and
recreation bodies implement programmes for sports leadership and
management.

The NGOs such as the Sports Couches‘ OutReach, Score, provides
education and training for teachers in areas such as technical
officiating, management and administration, with special focus on
priority sports. The SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport, Saids,
provides education and awareness in the prevention of amateur and
professional athletes from using prohibited substances.

Lastly, Boxing SA also receives funds earmarked for administration
and management of professional boxing in the country.

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The CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
members, I have been made to understand that hon Dlamini is standing
for hon Zwane.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, let me welcome the response from the hon
Deputy Minister. I just want to check on the issue of Banyana
Banyana. Can we say out of all these sporting fraternities that are
receiving financial support Banyana Banyana is also included? I am
asking this, Deputy Minister, because there is not even a single
league that is assisting to keep Banyana Banyana active as it is
happening with the men‘s soccer, if I may put it that way. Are there
plans to assist Banyana Banyana, whether by the government or by the
sporting fraternity or any other structure that is aiming at
equipping Banyana Banyana to perform well?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, if I
understood the hon member correctly, the response is: Yes, hon
member, when we make transfers to SA Football Association, Safa, it
will be for supporting the entire sporting fraternity; and sister
Nomsa is representing Banyana Banyana on the Board. As we know, we
are very proactive and unapologetic about our bias towards getting
all our females active and playing. So, yes, most certainly we do
support Banyana Banyana as far as our conditional grants are
concerned.

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Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Minister, South Africa has universities
that are acknowledged as some of the best globally when it comes to
sport management. What has the department done to liaise with the
institutes of higher learning to ensure that individuals who show
potential are, firstly, aware of these programmes, and secondly,
have the support to access these programmes in order to obtain these
degrees?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, I
thank the hon member for asking such a very good question. I agree
with you that we have institutions of higher learning that we can be
very proud of in this country, and in fact we are setting an example
of great and world standards in these regard. Every two years in
this country we hold a conference for all sports scientists from
universities and we invite international speakers and academics to
come and participate. It is something that is highly valued by the
department and by the fraternity at large and we really take pride
in supporting that initiative. We want to state the cutting-edge
science of sport development and what is within the parameters and
realm of achieving greatness in our country; boosting our athletes
and exposing them to the best programmes and investor courses
available.

So, yes, we do support institutions of higher learning. The hon
member may be aware that we have upgraded the sporting fraternities
all over the country. We have put in certain codes in Bloemfontein,

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at Pretoria University High Performance Centre and at Potchefstroom
University. We are doing this specifically to ensure that we give
financial support and exposure to our athletes. Hon member, thank
you for the good question.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, in terms
of the sporting fraternity, the Minister of Sport and Recreation is
actually revitalising boxing as a sport in South Africa though I do
not know whether this is also for the TV shows. Our concern is, if
you do not have facilities where boxers can train, who will watch
Friday night programmes showing palookas boxing.

I want to know, how many facilities or gyms are you planning and how
many did you erect so far in terms of helping this programme? Thank
you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon member, thank you
for asking such a good question. Hon Chair, no, we have entered into
an agreement with the Defence Force to make use of their facilities
on a shared basis to expose our athletes in the boxing fraternity to
the training standards. And we do not think it is necessary to
duplicate all the facilities. However, in rural areas we have a
rural bias ensuring that there is a proactive way of rolling out
facilities where they are needed. Thank you.

SA Doping Control Laboratory

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100. Mr C Hattingh (North West: DA) asked the Minister of Sport and
Recreation:

(1) What steps has his department taken to ensure the reaccreditation of the SA Doping Control Laboratory since its
suspension until 30 September 2016;

(2) whether he will provide details of any financial support,
directly or indirectly provided to the laboratory since
2014; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO284E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson,
following the suspension of the World Antidoping Agency, Wada‘s,
accreditation, of our SA Doping Control Laboratory in May 2016, our
department did meet with the University of the Free State and the
management of the SA Doping Control Laboratory. Amongst the key
activities performed thus far to reinstate the laboratory
accreditation are the following: In 2015 a turnaround plan was
developed by the department in consultation with the SA Institute
for Drug-Free Sport, Saids, and the SA Doping Control Laboratory.
Since the development of the plan, the following has been achieved:
Firstly, the professional service for experts in the field of
antidoping and management of the laboratory was acquired to assist
in complying with all Wada‘s requirements. Our view is that this
will help to resolve the issue of accreditation; secondly, high

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resolution antidoping testing instruments were also purchased;
thirdly, the employment of additional new personnel to assist in
resolving the extraction and analysis of samples; fourthly, the
structuring of the SA Doping Control Laboratory in accordance to
management function; fifthly, the application for the institution to
be a sport and recreation body in terms of the Sport and Recreation
Act 110 of 1998; sixthly, with the view to ease the funding
requirement - from our side as a department and as a Wada
requirement for reaccreditation - the SA Doping Control Laboratory
has applied and obtained full accreditation from the SA National
Accreditation System.

The SA Doping Control Laboratory has submitted the application for
blood analysis testing to Wada and an inspection visit by Wada took
place on 14 June 2016 and we are still awaiting Wada to consider our
application in this regard.

We have further committed R2 million in this financial year 2016-17
to the laboratory and our department is also considering the
secondment of additional personnel depending on the budget
availability to provide funding annually to our laboratory there.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, the question was directly on how much
funding. So I understand that although R2 million was committed, but
nothing was given at this stage. Is that correct? Then secondly, I
understand that blood doping analysis as part of the athlete‘s

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passport has been approved and is back to functionality. The
question is, will 30 September as deadline for the urine analysis be
met?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, I am
convinced that we will meet the deadline. And we are hopeful that we
will again fly the flag very high with that laboratory because we
will be doing the testing for the African continent as well. That is
a very important part. And as we all know, we are part of the Wada
Foundation Board. In fact the late Rev Makhenkesi Stofile served as
Vice President of Wada until his passing away. Yes, indeed we take
that very seriously.

Hon Chairperson, I am not sure if hon Hattingh and I are reading the
same question as I see nothing here. I want to repeat the question
which is as follows: What steps has his department taken to ensure
the reaccreditation of the SA Doping Control Laboratory since its
suspension until 30 September 2016? I think I have answered that
elaborately.

Whether he will provide details of any financial support that was
directly or indirectly provided to the laboratory since 2014; if
not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? I think we have
also answered that as well when talking about employing additional
personnel to address the backlogs and other things. So, please just
listen you may learn something.

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2010 World Cup Sport Development legacy projects

75. Ms L C Dlamini (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and
Recreation:

Whether there are any 2010 World Cup Sport Development legacy
projects in South Africa; if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details?

CO259E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon member, hon
Dlamini, the legacy of the World Cup leaves on through the 2010 Fifa
World Cup Legacy Trust. The trust funded a number of programmes that
can be summarised as follows: I want to put emphasis on what we are
talking about. We are talking about programmes; We not are talking
about the obvious legacy of stadiums and infrastructure and all the
things that we have done in the build-up and after to 2010.

These are ongoing capacity building projects such as referee and
coaching development are taking place, the establishment of leagues
at local football association levels is taking place, the promotion
of girls and women football is taking place through the legacy fund.
They lead development programme for girls at the High Performance
Centre at the University of Pretoria as a product of this legacy
fund. The establishment of the National Technical Centre at Fun
Valley is one of the projects. Support to NGOs that use football as
a vehicle for social change to South Africa and the African

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continent and research projects on football are taking place and are
being funded by the project.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, I am satisfied by the response.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Minister, I want to know why did the
government not put structures in place to look after and manage
these legacies such as security companies, for instance, as the huge
Danny Jordaan Legacy Sport Complex which was erected in Uitenhage
and today dilapidated, goats and cattle are walking all over the
Astroturf hockey and soccer pitches.

The fence that was erected around this huge complex was stolen and
million of rands worth of damage has been done. What steps is the
government going to do to return these facilities to functional
state so that communities can actually utilise that?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Faber, reality is,
when we have build and roll-out infrastructure, we transfer that to
local government to be the custodians. And we have spoken about the
Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, funding and the 50% of MIG
funds. Part of that is to be ring-fenced for upkeep and maintenance
of those facilities.

It is sad to hear and to see neglect of facilities, but I promise
you, hon Faber, I will take it up with the city council in that part

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of the world and we will follow up on your suggestion and see
whether we can‘t turn that around and make it accessible again for
our people.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Ditona tsotlhe tse di buileng fano gompieno, di
buile puo e le nngwe fela. [All Ministers concurred with each other
today.]

Everything is to do with follow up. It indicates to us that there is
no proper monitoring of state facilities in all the schools in all
the areas in which government money has been used to build sports
facilities, they are not taken care of.

Even now the Minister is indicating that he is going to follow up
and come back to us. When will it be? Coming back with the plan and
after the plan it will take another two years or three years or five
years to implement that plan. It‘s clear that you don‘t have a plan.

Re kopeng gore re lo thuse go tsamaisa puso e tle e kgone go tlisa
neelano ya ditirelo mo bathong ba rona. [Ask us to help govern so to
give service to our people.]

We cannot sit here and be told about the plan. It has been 22 years.
There are no sporting facilities in schools. If they are there,
there is no plan in terms of how do you develop them or how do you
take care of them. Thank you very much.

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MOTLATSATONA WA LEFAPHA LA METSHAMEKO LE BOITAPOLOSO: Modulasetilo,
ke utlwile gore leloko la re ga re na didiriswa tsa metshameko mo
dikolong tsa rona. Seno ga se nnete, ebile ke ganetsana le sona. Re
tshwanetse re bue nnete fela mo Ntlong eno. (Translation of Setswana
paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the
member said we lack recreational resources in schools, which is not
true. Can we be honest in this House?]

The truth of the matter is that we are proactively rolling out
outdoor gym facilities; we have proactively rolling out multipurpose facilities.

Se sengwe se ke batlang go se tshwaela ke gore, lekoko la ANC le na
le boeteledipele. Ke rona puso, ka jalo, ga re tlhoke thuso ya lona.
Ke a leboga. [Legofi.] [I also want to emphasise that the ANC party
has the leadership. We are the government, we do not need you. I
thank you. [Applause.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEE AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
members, let me thank the Deputy Minister for availing himself to
deal with the questions.

Central management of beneficiary list

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88.

PAGE: 176 of 318

Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Human
Settlements:

In what way will the centralised management of the beneficiary
list improve housing allocation and minimise problems in the
municipalities?

CO272E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, the answer to
the question is, yes, we do have the National Housing Needs Register
which is linked to our strategy of ensuring that the process is
transparent and to avoid duplications in terms of housing
opportunities. It ensures that a person who applied for a house and
got it cannot go to the Eastern Cape and apply for another house
while having a house in Cape Town. We have what is called National
Housing Needs Register. In this process we ensure that we are able
to monitor the issuing of housing allocation at a national level
while the provinces or municipalities are dealing with that process.

If we have listened to the speech of the Minister in the 2016 Budget
Vote, she put it very clear that we would like a situation where we
remove provinces and municipalities in the issuing and allocation of
houses because there are a lot of discrepancies as far as the
waiting lists are concerned. We would like that process to be as
transparent as possible so that there are no discrepancies at all.
So, we do have a plan. Thank you.

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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Minister, I asked this question because I
think the department‘s plan is complicating things when the
beneficiary list is now going to be removed from local level and be
centralised at national level. Right now, like you are saying, we do
have problems. I am going to refer to a few of them. In Cornubia in
Durban, there has been a long list that hasn‘t been attended to. The
people that have been put in Cornubia are not the ones who are in
the list.

In 2010, and I‘m raising this for the second time, people were moved
away from kwaMnyandu in Umlazi to Zamani because of the 2010
project. These people were promised that they were going to be
allocated houses the following year. Now is the sixth year. In all
the housing projects that are taking place in Durban they are not
prioritised. I was asking to find out that if the beneficiary list
is removed from local level, is it not going to be more complicated?
The problem here is that social consultation is not helping the
department. When a house is built the department should know for
whom is it built for rather than wait for the houses to be finished
and then people take over because the lists are not being followed.
That is the problem, Deputy Minister. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I agree. As we speak there
are lots of discrepancies as far as the housing allocations and the
lists are concerned. This is what the department is doing to try and
clean up. The link with national helps us in two things. Firstly,

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there is a housing subsidy system where in the application you will
be able to see whether the person qualifies to be accorded a
government subsidy as such, and secondly, also in terms of the
municipality – remember the municipality would have its own waiting
list. The fact is that at a national level we were coming forth
centrally so that at the end of the day what the municipality fit
into their system is also what we have nationally for the systems
speak to each other. It is about screening and ensuring that the
houses that we deliver go to the right people.

We have also been saying that we have a clearly defined criterion in
houses. We are supposed to first allocate the elderly people, people
with disabilities and the child-headed households. This means that
these are people who need houses most. Later the issue of first
come, first served comes in. It must not happen that we give houses
to young people when a 90-year-old is not in a house. That is what
we are trying to do.

In this process we are moving away from that issue of saying when we
build a house it is for so and so because that means it is a
project-linked approach that we are going with. We moved away from
it because it delayed the issue of title deed, it delayed in
ensuring that people have houses and it actually delayed the housing
delivery itself because we were giving that responsibility to
developers to do it. It was a complete disjuncture and that is why
we have moved away from it. I think this particular one where you

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involve the province and the municipality, and the national screens
it as a final arbiter, is a better approach.

Mr O SEFAKO: House Chair and Deputy Minister, the Group Areas Act
and many other apartheid pieces of legislations barred Africans from
staying in places of their choice. Today, under the ANC we all stay
in places of our choice. To what extent does urban migration affects
this central system you are putting in place?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: It is exactly what you are
saying. We are saying that people are free to stay or live in places
of their choice. They can move from province to province, but in
terms of accessing government subsidy, you are only able to access
it once so that there is no double dipping. The fact that you moved
from province to province should not mean that when you get to this
province you get another dipping and getting to the other province
another dipping – it should be one. You also vote once. Even in
housing is like that, you get it once.

Moh N P MOKGOSI: Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. Ke ne ke kopa gore Tona a
ntlhalosetse ka boripana gore fa a re go thuswa yo o tlileng pele o
raya jang?

Gape, o umakile bagodi le batho ba ba nang le dikgwetlho fela;
jaanong ke kopa go itse gore batho ba ba dikobo dikhutswane, batho
bantsho, Maaforika Borwa a rona o a reng ka bona? Ga o a ba umaka mo

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puong ya gago. Fa o re go thusiwa yo o tlileng pele, a o raya
makhanselara a lona a a neelang batho matlo ka tsela e e sa
amogeleseng? (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Ms N P MOKGOSI: Chairperson, can I ask the Minister to clarify to
me what does she mean by first come first serve? She also mentioned
the elderly and people living with disability, what is she saying
about the poor, blacks and South Africans at large as she made no
mention in her speech. Furthermore, when she says first come first
serve, is she referring to their councillors who award house in an
undeserving manner?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The hon member definitely
did not understand what I meant, yes. In every waiting list you have
people waiting on the basis of the date on which they have applied
for a house. Do you understand? Then you have a waiting list which
is in that format. But when we have a housing project we say, in
that waiting list try to allocate the elderly people first - people
who are aging and very elderly people. Try to allocate them first
irrespective of when did they apply, and thereafter, first come
first serve - which means in the order of applications on the
waiting list. That is what you were supposed to do in any case. We
can sing together, but we cannot speak together.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let us allow the
process to be smooth. If you are asking a question, members must
listen, and if the Deputy Minister is responding then let us listen.

Sustainable integrated human settlements

77.

Ms T K Mampuru (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of Human
Settlements:

(1)

How does her department (a) ensure that sustainable
integrated human settlements that allow residents to access
social and economic opportunities close to where they live
are developed and (b) determine the sizes of the plots on
which houses are built (details furnished);

(2)

whether such approach is commonly used countrywide; if not,
why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

CO261E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chairperson, yes, we
do have definitely examples of where we did the issue of integrated
human settlements; where house of people are built closer to places
of work; where in those houses there are facilities, social
amenities, I mean schools, parks and so forth.

We have beautiful examples. One of them is the N2 Gateway here in
Cape Town as you can see. It is brought closer to the town, because

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we are beginning to integrate people. We have a similar project
Cornubia. We have a similar project in Cosmo City in Gauteng. We
have Lerato Park. We have similar project which we are now working
on in Lephalale in Limpopo but there is Seshego itself.

So, we have those projects in operation as a government. We would
have loved a situation where all developers and all municipalities
start building houses closer to places of work, closer to towns, so
that the infrastructure itself is able to serve the people for the
better. I thank you.

Ms T K MAMPURU: Minister, household owners have been selling
Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, and Provincial
Housing Board, PHB, houses, before. Have the department put in place
stricter measures to avoid the same, because people might be tempted
to sell the house and go back to the rural areas?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: We have been reminding
people that we do have what is called pre-emptive clause. A preemptive clause is a clause that says that, at least a person who has
benefited from government must be in that house for eight years and
must not sell the house before eight years expire. We do have that
in the legislation.

We also do urge our people that it is better not to sell a
government house. We are saying the buyer must be government,

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because as government we will buy that house for the next person on
the queue to benefit from government. So, we are urging our people,
that if they want to sell their house, they must bring it back to
government and we could do better things like that.

But what is positive is that houses built through the PHB are never
sold. When people build their own houses through the PHB process
they don‘t sell them. Thank you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson and the arrogant Deputy Minister ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon ... Order! Order
members! Hon Mokwele, refrain from anything that will compromise the
decorum of the House. I am appealing to you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... I don‘t know what ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): It is an opportunity to ask
a question not to make a statement.

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... Alright I am doing that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, ask your question.

Ms T J MOKWELE: That is what I am doing. Hon arrogant Minister, fact
of the matter is that ...

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, can you take
your seat? Let me take a point of order.

Ms T MOTARA: Yes, Chair, on a point of order. Is it parliamentary to
call another Member of Parliament names?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): It is not parliamentary.
That is why I was telling hon Mokwele to refrain from anything that
will bring us to this situation. Can you withdraw that statement of
attributing arrogancy before you put your question, hon Mokwele, so
that you can ask your question?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Ask your
question.

Moh T J MOKWELE: Motlatsatona yo o sa batleng go dirisana mmogo le
batho. Potso ya me mo go wena ke gore lefapha la gago le aga matlo
kwa Porofenseng ya Bokone Bophirima le Kapa Bokone, mme matlo a lo a
agang, bogolosegolo mo Kapa Bokone, a nyenyefatsa serithi sa batho
ba rona.

Le netefatsa jang gore batho ba kwa Kapa Bokone ba ba sotlegileng ba
nna le bokgoni jwa go nna beng ba matlo ka gonne lo ba tlhatlaganya
jaaka ditlhapi?

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Dijarata tse lo ba direlang tsone lo netefatsa jang gore le sejanaga
se le sengwe se ka se kgone go tsena mo jarateng ya bona? Ka jalo,
ke botsa ka boikokobetso Motlatsatona yo o sa rateng go dirisana
mmogo le batho gore lefapha la gago le ikaelela go dira eng ka go
tlhabolola matshelo a baagi ba mo Kapa Bokone? Ke a leboga.
(Translation of Setswana Paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T J MOKWELE: I will put it to you the arrogant Deputy Minister,
your department is building houses in the North West and Northern
Cape Provinces, however, those house belittle the dignity of our
people. My question to you: How are to going to ensure that the poor
people in the Northern Cape Province are going to be able to own
house when you are busy packing them the same way as sardines?

You ensured that their yards cannot accommodate even a single car.
Still on that, I also want to know how is your department going to
ensure that the lives of our people get better?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, what I know
and what I have witnessed was that the houses built in the Northern
Cape that I visited and handed over were of good quality. And if a
member has a problem, the member should have submitted the question
so that we are able to investigate as a department what area you are
referring to, because I am not going to stand here and defend what I
don‘t know. Thank you.

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Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, before I ask my question to the Deputy
Minister, you can start at Soul City next to the legislature.
Chairperson, as in the case of Nkandla settlement, this is not the
President‘s palace. We are talking about another palace here for
this doesn‘t look like a palace.

As in the case of Nkandla settlement next to Hartswater, Phokwane,
where services like sewerage and water can‘t be installed due to
none geological research that was done? Why does the department then
allow settlements to be established where the possibilities of this
opportunities doesn‘t exist and where this people will not be able
to have basic services and the municipality allowed this settlement
to be put in that place? I want to know what she will do about it
because eventually her department is responsible for that. We as
councils and the councillors in the areas will have to come back to
that. I want to know what her department will do about this
settlement?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me assist
you. If you do a follow-up question, make sure that your question is
linked to the original question. You can‘t come with a new question.
I am just appealing to you. Hon Deputy Minister, if you want to
comment? Let me take a point of order, hon Deputy Minister.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I just want us to clarify that we are not
talking about Nkandla Municipality here. [Laughter] It is another

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Nkandla for the benefit of people who are watching this program,
because an IFP municipality will not do that.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, with due
respect, the hon member, must submit a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, can you take your
seat? That is why ... I am presiding here and I can see that the
question that you are raising is not linked to the original question
that is here.

Mr W F FABER: Chair, we must be consistent and I am going to say to
you again. We must be consistent when telling people to sit down and
telling them that things are not relevant. It is not just to you to
decide, because the Minister wants to duck and dive questions. We
can‘t work like that. This is very clear as I said that this ... and
I will repeat it because listening is a skill as we all know. I will
repeat the last part, to be established where possibilities of this
economic opportunities doesn‘t exist. Now that is very relevant to
the previous questions. Now, if the Minister doesn‘t understand that
we have to apparently help her and I can read the whole question or
she answers the question again, but really, Chairperson, we can‘t
allow Ministers to come here and then because it‘s a new question,
they duck and dive and walk, because that is the sign of arrogance.
Thank you.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, you have Question
77 in front of you that was asked by hon Mampuru, and you are
introducing a question that is totally different to Question 77.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon House Chair, I want to believe that when we
talk integrated human settlement we also include the social housing
programme. My question, therefore, is around the Black Economic
Empowerment, BEE, sector in this particular sector. To what extent
is the Social Housing Regulating Authority, SHRA, going out of its
way to empower the new emerging black owned social housing
institutions, especially in the emerging or old mining towns where
rental stock is so much in demand and it pushes up the demand list
of the municipalities as if nothing is done on the part of
government service delivery on this sector.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon member, no, we are
encouraging the social housing institutions in this process and the
SHRA, its assignment is to support the housing institutions and make
it favourable for them to register. We have even said, because
social institutions also fit in with the gap market with the rental
stock. We have even said that when we do the catalystic projects, it
must be a mixture, subsidy, portion of that, rental stock, and gap
market.

So, which means we will need social house institutions to inject and
to help this process of housing delivery. We are in process of

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ensuring that we revamp and understand as we had difficulties
sometime as far as SHRA and our social institutions are concerned.
We have a new board. We have a new CEO. Things are on track now. So,
there is hope.
Housing backlog

98. Mr O S Terblanche (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of Human
Settlements:

(a) What is the extent of the housing backlog and (b) how many
persons are on the waiting list for housing in the Nelson
Mandela Bay Municipality?

CO282E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, the hon
member is asking about the housing backlog in the Nelson Mandela Bay
Municipality. I just want to say to members, we do not have housing
backlog in Nelson Mandela. What we have is housing demand and that
demand is at 84 568, it may increase because people want houses. The
reason why we say so is because people continue to come closer to
cities looking for work opportunities. So, Nelson Mandela in the
Eastern Cape is one of those municipalities which draw people from
different areas. Thank you.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, whether you
want to term it as a demand or backlog, I want to get the number,
please. Chairperson, I am just asking if whether the Minister will

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be so kind to tell us what the backlog or the demand is. Thank you.
Then with your permission, I will get to my follow-up question, that
is so far my first question. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr B G NTHEBE: Wa bona dipotso tse latelanang tse ngatangata tse!
[There are many follow-up questions!]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Terblanche you only have one slot for a follow-up question, you will
not have another one. Hon deputy Minister, can you answer the
question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: When you speak to the
issue of housing backlog, it means that you have made up your mind
that in such and such an area I will build so many houses and you
have funding for that and you put a number and say 10 000. Out of
that 10 000 you build about 6 000 then the remaining is backlog. So,
when it comes to housing demand, that is when people apply for a
house in a municipality and it is a demand database not a backlog.
[Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you, hon Julius. Hon Terblanche, it is hon Julius‘ turn.

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, it is easy to tell us what is the
demand, there is a figure, just give us the amount to the hon

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member, because we need an answer. You said there is a demand and
there is backlog. Give us the demand figure. But my question,
Chairperson, ... [Interjections] ... can you please protect me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order members; let us listen to hon Julius. Hon Julius, ask your
question.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Minister, on the West Rand, the Gauteng
province allocated R265 million to upgrade informal settlements in
Merafong, Randfontein and western area. Nothing was spent. Can you
please explain this, what have you done? Who will be held
accountable for this because this money has been sent back? Thank
you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Julius, can you please take your seat. Let me assist. Hon members, I
want to be very consistent. It is entirely up to the Deputy Minister
whether she is going to comment or not because it is entirely a new
question. This one is talking about the Nelson Mandela Bay
Municipality and then you are introducing ... [Interjections.] Hon
Deputy Minister you can continue.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The member knows my
answer.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I do not know the answer. [Laughter.] I do not know
the answer that is why I posed the question to the Deputy Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Julius, please take your seat.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I do not have an answer. You see Chairperson, there
is a problem with this. [Interjections.] Any time it comes from this
side, you protect but when it comes from that side ... why didn‘t
you ask the Minister what is the answer? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Julius ...

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I want my answer on Randfontein,
western area and Merafong.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Deputy Minister, as a Presiding Officer, I say that it is entirely
up to you. We all can read what is here, that is why I am concerned
about it. The initial question is about Nelson Mandela Bay, you can
see the question in front of you.

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: That is not Nelson Mandela
Bay.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, I would like to know from the
Deputy Minister, how long it will take to satisfy the current demand
or backlog.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The current demand
database will be addressed with regard to the allocation that goes
to the municipality. Every single time we go on a budget and
allocate a certain amount of money to the municipality, we will be
dealing with the demand in that direction.

Housing applications

78.

Ms L L Zwane (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of Human
Settlements:

Whether her department has any strategies to combat the (a)
irregularities and corruption that occur in the process of
housing applications and (b) persistent scams that use her
department‘s name and its logo to defraud unsuspecting persons,
especially suppliers and contractors; if not, why not; if so,
what strategies?

CO262E

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We now come to Question 78
from hon Zwane. I am reliably informed that hon Dlamini is standing
in for hon Zwane.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I think this
question is similar to the earlier one which was talking about the
issue of the database. The national ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The national Department of
Human Settlements has developed and instituted systems and measures
to verify all housing subsidy applications against the subsidy
scheme qualification criteria which ensure that a successful housing
subsidy applicant does not receive more than one housing subsidy
opportunity. It is the one I spoke to earlier on, but it is worth
answering. The hon member must understand that the measures referred
to above entail housing subsidy scheme which verifies all housing
subsidy applications against a range of data search and the national
housing subsidy database on which all successful housing subsidy
applications are recorded. It is therefore not possible to obtain
more than one housing subsidy opportunity. The verification of
applications are measured against the National Population Register,
NPR, the Deeds Office, Title Deeds register, Government Unemployed
register, Government Employees Pension Fund, GEPF, and the Persal.

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So, which means we have all the checks and balances in place, like I
said earlier on.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Dlamini? No, I have noted
you hon Faber, you will be the second one. The first person to ask
is the one who has sponsored the question. [Inaudible.] No, you
never said it was a point of order. I will recognise a point of
order first. Take your seat, hon Dlamini.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order: With due respect,
the Minister is just duplicating answers and these she does not know
she dodges and dives. Can we please ask Minister Surty who
apparently, as we know him, is very capable of at least answering
directly; or advice the Deputy Minister on how to answer. We cannot
go on like this. I am wasting my time here listening to answers that
are written there which have no relevance, to be quite honest, to
the follow up question. We come here to get answers. We didn‘t come
here to get something that is read out for us from there. Please
Chairperson, we can not go on like this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, hon Faber, hon
Faber, hon Faber. You know what you are doing but I might not know
why you are doing it. You have got an opportunity to make a follow
up question not what you are doing. Hon Dlamini.

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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, on a serious note before I ask my
question let me use my one minute to say this. You know, members of
‗deaf‘ - I do not know whether its ‗diff‘ or ‗deaf‘ are really
disturbing us. Bayadlala [They are playing] [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Dlamini, hon Dlamini,
hon Dlamini, hon Dlamini, can you withdraw what you have just said
and ask your question. We do not have members of what you are
referring to now. [Laughter.] It is not necessary. You are not
supposed to make a statement but ask a question.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Is part of the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I am dealing with hon
Dlamini

Ms T J MOKWELE: Is part of the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, is it a point of order?
But let me deal with hon Dlamini first. [Interjections.] It is a
point of order? Hon Mokwele?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, let me address my fellow member and say
...

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Ka mokgwa o a tsweletseng ka ona, re tla mo mmontsha ka 2019. [At
the rate that she is going, we will show her in 2019.]

It is a fact.

O letlelesegile go re bitsa maina, rona re tla mo mmontsha ka 2019.
[She is allowed to call us names, we will show her in 2019.]

2019, is only less than three years from now. You take a seat. We
are just cautioning her, that she must behave well otherwise we will
deal with her

O tshwanetse gore a nne a re lebeletse ka 2019. Ga a re tshosetse ka
sepe, le ene wa itse. [She must just wait for us in 2019. She does
not scare us, she knows that too well.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): But hon Mokwele, I am
addressing ... Hon Dlamini, if you do not have a follow up question,
you do not have it. Refrain from doing what you are doing.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Can I spell what I was saying?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members. Hon Dlamini,
hon Dlamini, hon Dlamini, you have got every right to raise a point
of order when it is your turn. But when it is your turn to ask a
follow-up question, just ask a follow-up question.

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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, let me appreciate the response from the
hon Deputy Minister. I want to check with the hon Deputy Minister if
cases of this nature do happen where they use information of the
department to defraud innocent people? What is the department doing?
Are there any measures that they are doing if it does happen?

An HON MEMBER: DA, EFF ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon Deputy
Minister?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson to the hon
member, we definitely have systems in place to fight the issue of
corruption and fraud in instances like that. For example, we have
just received and referred 81 cases of fraud to the SA Police
Service for criminal prosecution, and nine have been prosecuted as
we speak. So, those are success stories we are talking about. But
also in terms of people who are using the system, particularly the
government system ... [Interjection.] [Inaudible.] We have also
encouraged stakeholders and supply chain management to refer cases
of this nature to government so that we deal with these.

You know this temporary celebration is going to come to an end soon

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you, hon Julius. Okay, sorry, hon Julius, let me take the
point of order. Hon Mokwele?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order:

Fa ke ne ke bua nako e e fetileng ke rile ... [In the past I said
...]

... this Deputy Minister is arrogant, you said I must withdraw. I am
still saying that she is very and extremely arrogant. Who is
celebrating with whom? You are celebrating ... You are ...

Lo utlwa botlhoko fa lo sa kgotsofadiwa ke dipholo tsa ditlhopho.
[You are hurt because you lost the election.]

You failed your own people. You must pay a price for failing your
own people and you are continuing to fail your own people. You are
going to lose this government. So do not say we are celebrating. The
people of South Africa are celebrating, not us. We are here to serve
our own people. So, we will deal with your arrogance. Thank you very
much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat, hon
Mokwele and hon Motara. Take your seat, hon Motara. Can you take
your seat? [Interjections.] Yeah, let me address what has happened.

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[Interjections.] [Inaudible.] Order members! Hon members!
[Interjections.] Hon Mokwele [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] Order
members! Hon Mampuru! In terms of rule 46, no member may use
offensive and unbecoming in the Council. It is part of the rules and
is applicable to all members without exception. I am appealing to
all Members in the House to refrain from anything that will
compromise the decorum of the House.

Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, according to the rules, frivolous points
of order are not allowed. Can you please rule.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is why I made that
comment. I am appealing to all of you, hon members. Let us come now
to question ...

Mr J W W JULIUS: Aaw!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): ... hon Julius, sorry, I
almost left you out. I am very sorry.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I accept your apologies Chairperson. It is not my
problem when some people cannot celebrate. It is their making. My
question now is on the strategies to combat irregularities in
housing. I pose my question to the Deputy Minister: Gauteng province
allocated R265 million for upgrading of informal settlements in
Merafong, Randfontein and Westonaria, but nothing was spent. What

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have you done to combat this irregularity where money is sent back
and they didn‘t do anything in these three municipalities? You
earlier nodded your head, can you please, in a celebratory mood,
answer my question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I am not going to answer
that question, Chairperson, because the member is smuggling in the
earlier question which was not answered into this one

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Whether I am
smuggling or not, if it fits in the question like your earlier
ruling where you said it does not fit in there. If it fits in here,
make a ruling, and the Deputy Minister must answer. Make a ruling
that the Deputy Minister must answer because it is about strategies
to combat the irregularities. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, I do not want us
to get to discussing the question and linking it with the previous
one. As members ... [Interjections.] No, allow me. When you were
talking I never even disturbed you, I allowed you to finish. As
members, when there is a question in front of us and when we ask a
question, the question must be linked to the original question. If
you are coming with a question which is totally different to the
original question, the rules are very clear; it is entirely up to
the Minister or the Deputy Minister to comment or not to respond to
that question. That is why I made my ruling.

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Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair on a point of order: I want you to
rule on the following matter, is it permitted for a Minister or
Deputy Minister to come and stand in this House and blatantly refuse
to answer a question, which the Deputy Minister just did?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I have already made a
ruling about this issue of coming with a new question, hon Smit. Let
me allow hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, it is clear that the Deputy Minister is
not willing to answer our questions so I am suggesting that, because
she is only responding to the questions asked by the ANC, she must
just go to the caucus tomorrow and discuss those questions at your
political caucus and then ... Let her just pack her bags and go
because ...

... ga gona sepe se a re thusang ka sona fano. [... there is nothing
that she can do to help us.]

She must just pack her bags and go to your political caucus tomorrow
or Thursday and answer these questions, because now we are listening
to the answers addressed only to the ANC. It cannot be proper.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, can you clarify
me; when you say she must go and answer to our ... What are you
referring to?

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Ms T J MOKWELE: A kere ... [Isn‘t] this is an ANC thing, right? You
are representing the ANC in this House. You are representing ...

... se tshwenyege, ke mafolofolo thata. [Don‘t worry, I am very
active.]

... ANC in this House. She is representing ANC in this House. All
the questions that she is answering are asked by ANC members. So she
must just pack whatever that is prepare there be answered at the
political caucus, that is it, because now she is not willing to
answer anything from the opposition. It is clear.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, can you take
your seat? Hon members, I am very patient with all of you. You know
when we are doing follow-up questions ... Recently hon MpamboSibhukwana showed us - and I do not want to make reference to name
of the party she comes from – when making a follow up question she
linked it to the original question and the Deputy Minister responded
to that question. This is something that happened in this very same
House whilst I was presiding. So I am appealing to all of you to do
the very same thing.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I do not think we want to be
disrespectful. I think this must be understood very well and be made
very clear. The problem comes when we have follow-up questions - not
brand new questions - that have got to have relevance to questions.

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We will not ask questions that are new questions here. We understand
that part of the rule, but we can also not allow a Minister to
randomly decide that it is a new question, and you actually protect
that Minister by saying: ―Yes, it is a new question.‖ That cannot
happen. That makes you inconsequent in your ruling and we cannot
allow that. If that is the method that you use in making your
rulings then all of us as opposition can stand up and go home
because it does not help us to sit here and when we pose questions
you just tell us it is ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, hon Faber, we are
not arguing about new questions and not new questions. The issue is
when a member is supposed to ask a question is not asking a
question. Already that statement you are making has been made by
other members. If a question is not linked to the original question,
it is always a problem.

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I just need your ruling on this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Ja. [Yes]

Mr J W W JULIUS: Did you say my question is actually out of line?
There is again also another request. But, first, make your ruling
whether my question is out of line or not - it does not fit in with
the original question because I started by saying strategies to
combat irregularities. It was said I am smuggling in a question. I

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want you to explain whether I am smuggling in or not. You have to
rule and say, yes, you smuggled in a question or it is irrelevant to
the original question or so, and give the Minister the opportunity
to answer. The Minister can‘t just say: ―No, I am not ready to
answer.‖ Can you see that type of arrogance? Other Ministers come
here and say: ―Right, I will come back with an answer or something.‖
But the Minister‘s arrogance in this case, demonstrated by her
blatant refusal to answer a question ... I mean there are other ways
of doing it. It is clear that the Minister does not want to be held
accountable by the members of the NCOP. So, I suggest that the
Minister must pack her bags.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius. Being here, with
me presiding over this process we are involved in now, you have a
way of taking your grievances forward if ever you are aggrieved. I
have already made a ruling and now I expect a member who will be
making a follow-up question to do so. And if we have exhausted that
number, I will ask you to allow me to get to the question by MpamboSibhukawana, and that is Question 103. Hon Deputy Minister, let us
deal with question 103.

Moh T J MOKWELE: Motl Modulasetilo, re kopa tsweetswee o netefatse
gore Motlatsatona wa Lefapha la Dintlo o tla araba dipotso tse re di
botsang. Motl Julius o boditse potso e e seng thata. O boditse gore
a o ne a sa tshwanela go botsa potso e a e boditseng. (Translation
of Setswana paragraph follows.)

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[Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chairperson, could you please ensure that the
Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Settlement answer all our
questions. Hon Julius asked a simple question which is: Was he not
supposed to ask the question that he posed?]

You must rule on that. That the question asked by hon Julius was out
of line therefore the Deputy Minister cannot answer it.

Ke kopa gore o netefatse gore mme ona o tletse fano go tla go re
araba. Fa a sa re arabe a tsamaye, tlhe! Re batla batho ba bangwe ba
ba batlang go direla lefapha lena, tsweetswee. (Translation of
Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Could you please ensure that this woman is here to give us answers.
If not, she must leave. We want people who would like to work for
this department, please.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I
am assuring you. ... Let us deal with 103. Hon Deputy Minister, we
are getting to Question 103 from Mpambo-Sibhukwana.

Houses delivered during election

103. Ms T G Mpambo-Sibhukwana (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister
of Human Settlements:

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How many houses were delivered to persons in the country during
the local government election period?

CO288E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, the member
asked a question and wants to know how many houses were delivered to
persons in the country during the local government election period.
I put it to the member that, as far as housing delivery is
concerned, we don‘t deliver houses because there are local
government elections. This question does not even say which local
government elections is being referred to. There were local
government elections in 1996, in 2011, and in 2016. This is not how
the Department of Human Settlements operates. We operate in terms of
first quarter, second quarter, third quarter and fourth quarter. We
also give you categories of housing delivery in that regard. I thank
you.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Deputy Minister, you know exactly that
I was referring to the local government elections for 2016, but
because you duck and dive and are arrogant, you are not prepared to
go that route. I just want to know how many people with disabilities
have benefited from the recently ... [Interjections.]

Ms Z V NCITHA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I think you
did rule on the matter of saying the Deputy Minister is arrogant,
but the hon member is saying that again. Thank you.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, don‘t
do that. Can you ask your question without using unbecoming language
in the Council?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: How many people with disabilities in
Marikana benefited from the recent, 2016, distribution of houses?
Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, on the issue
of distribution of houses or their allocations to people with
disabilities in Marikana, we do not know. We do not have that
information as yet. We will provide it to the member as soon as we
are able to do so.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, the last time I enquired as a
layman in law I asked whether local government or national
government has an effect on national government. The logic that I
got was that local government elections are local government
elections and are different from national government elections.
Therefore, the ruling party, the ANC, has 62% of the vote and it is
still ruling. Now, having said that we still want to continue to say
there shall be houses, peace and comfort ... [Interjections.]

I want to ask my question.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Motlashuping, sorry,
take your seat. Let me take the point of order from hon ...
[Inaudible.]

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, there is no order here, Chair. I have not
asked the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motlashuping!

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, but, we cannot allow this thing of people
hijacking the stage, Chair. [Interjections.] There is no ... he does
not ... he is pre-empting what I am going to say. I want to ask my
question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: All right.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Motlashuping, it is
entirely up to me to say whether the point of order is irrelevant or
not.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chairperson, some of the members must learn
to respect the Rules of this House as well. I rise on a point of
order. The hon member has just said ―the ruling party‖. Now, I don‘t
believe South Africa is a monarchy. A monarch rules but, in a

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democratic state, you govern. So, I think the governing party should
be right the word. So, I think maybe he is confused in his
pronunciation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Smit.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: More than 15 million people in this country are
saying that it is within your scope, Deputy Minister, at a date and
time, at an hour, a minute or a second to distribute houses to the
citizens of this country. It is within your scope. You must do so
unashamedly and we owe it from 1955 when we said there shall be
houses, peace and comfort. Those who did not even reach that margin
who continue to say we have lost ... Losing to me is very relative
because we have 54%. Any mathematician will tell you that anybody
who has got above 50 ... it means that the person has won.
Therefore, I do not understand this winning and celebration. Thank
you. Minister, you have heard my question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you, hon member. It
goes without saying that the government is still in power. Whether
you like it or not, the government is still in power. So, hon
member, I am very happy with the kind of articulation you have made
of giving assurance that, come rain or shine, we will deliver the
houses to the needy people of this country. Day in and day out,
quality houses will be coming from this government. I thank you.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I am appealing
again. You can see the question. You all have the Question Paper in
front of you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. My follow up
is that ...

... Sekela leNdvuna kuyabonakala kutsi usesemkhulu umsebenti
lekufanele siwente ekufundziseni bantfu kutsi yini liphakelo
letindlu. Umbuto lenginawo utsi, tikhona yini tinhlelo tekufundzisa
bantfu kutsi liyini liphakelo letindlu kute kutsi nalenhlangano –
lengitawusho tinhlavu letakha libito layo–ke manje: DAEFF itekwati
kutsi yini liphakelo letindlu kute kutsi bangalihlanganisi
nelukhetfo lwabohulumende basemakhaya? Ngulowo umbuto wami.
(Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[... Deputy Minister it is obvious that we still have a lot of work
to do to teach people about the housing budget. My question is, are
there any programmes in place to educate people about the housing
budget so that even the party – which

I will now call out its

acronym: DAEFF could know what the housing budget is and so that
they do not mix it with local government elections? That is my
question.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon
member. That is why the Department of Human Settlements has agreed

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that it is important to incorporate the issue of consumer education
within our delivery programme, so that people can understand what it
means when we talk about housing delivery. What does it mean to a
citizen who is not necessarily going to benefit from a programme
that is meant to alleviate the plight of those who need to receive
those services from the government? Also, what does that mean to
officials who are given that responsibility of executing that task?
What does it mean to Members of Parliament and councillors who are
supposed to do their oversight in terms of that service delivery so
that we do not politicise housing. This is very important. It is an
entity that as government we always say politics must be moved away
from housing because it is a volatile issue. So, Members of
Parliament must be Members of Parliament and assist the government
in the delivery of houses.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I cannot divorce myself from politics. Neither can
the Deputy Minister, because she is here because of the party she
represents. So, whatever that you do you are representing what your
party sends you to do.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, it is a follow
up question.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, I have two minutes. The ANC ...

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... e na le pholisi ka nako ya ditlhopho e ba e bitsang ... [...
during elections have a policy called ...]

the quick-win projects. The quick-win projects ...

... ke diporojeke Motlatsatona tse lo di dirang kwa dikarolong tse
le nang le bonnete jwa gore ga le kitla lo di fenya.

Kwa lefapheng

la gago le aga matlo, ba ditirelo tsa loago ba naya batho diphasele
tsa dijo mme ba Lefapha la Thuto bona ba isa dibuka le go thapa
barutabana ba nakwana. Lo direla batho nakonyana eo gore ba tle ba
nagane gore le teng. Jaanong o seka wa re fa Mme Sibhukwana a go
botsa gore ke matlo a makae a lo a agileng ka nako ya ditlhopho, o
be o re ga lo age matlo ka nako ya ditlhopho. (Translation of
Setswana paragraph follows.)

[... Deputy Minister, are the projects that you undertake in the
parts of the country that you are guaranteed to lose. In your
department you build houses, the social services provide people with
food parcels and the Department of Education deliver textbooks and
hire temporary educators. You provide services for a limited time
just for people to think you still around. So, when Ms Sibhukwana
asks you how many houses have you built during the election, don‘t
respond by saying you do not build houses during the election
period.]

... that is why us politicians were on recess for three months.

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Re ile kwa dikgaolotlhophong tsa rona, re ile go rotloetsa batho
gore ba re boutele. [We went to our constituencies to canvass for
votes.]

As for hon Motlashuping, yes, you have 54%, but you have dropped as
a ruling party. You must accept that you have lost. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much. We
may drop, we may increase; it doesn‘t really matter. What matters is
the fact that we have a responsibility, and we have executed that
responsibility as the Department of Human Settlements. Over the past
the 22 years we have delivered 4,3 million houses of good quality.
We have changed the lives of our people for the better. So, for you
to whip up the emotions of our people in respective communities is
because you don‘t govern. You are too irresponsible.

Pricing of properties

79. Ms M L Moshodi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of Human
Settlements:

Whether her department has any strategies to (a) regulate, (b)
monitor and (c) evaluate the pricing of properties by the estate
agencies; if not, why not; if so, (i) what strategies and (ii)
how effective are the strategies?

CO263E

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, the
question is about the estate agencies, whether the department has
any strategies or we regulate, monitor and evaluate pricing
properties by estate agencies. The department and government, in
general, do not determine the prices of houses. House prices are
informed by the home property market having regard to a number of
factors like the location of the house. This applies to every part
of South Africa. I am, however, aware that the estate agencies do
play a major role in the determination of those prices through their
professional opinions regarding home locations and also because of
the size of some of them.

In this regard, my department will be submitting to the Cabinet and
ultimately to Parliament the Property Practitioners Bill in which I
propose to deal with many other factors that influence the home
property market, including pricing. Some of the issues to be dealt
with is the conduct of the estate agency with regard to the
information that is important to consumer or homebuyer and which
ultimately affect the decision to make a purchase. Accordingly, it
is not government policy to determine prices, but it is the
intention of government to influence the conditions that impact on
prices so that ultimately the consumer can make informed decisions.
We hope that this will help you. Thank you.

Mrs M L MOSHODI: Ke a leboha, Modulasetulo. Ke kgotsofetse ke karabo
eo ke e fumaneng ho Motlatsa Letona. Ha ke na potso e latelang.

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[Thank you, Chairperson. I am satisfied with the response I have
received from the Deputy Minister. I do not have a follow-up
question.]

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, I want to congratulate the
Deputy Minister here, but she is unfortunately not listening. I am
talking English, Madam. Anyway, I want to congratulate you, Madam,
really, seriously for the first time you answer the question
properly and you know what I am in agreement with you. Thank you for
that. I just want to make sure that you were there with a little bit
of double talk if I may. You said that the government has no
intention to regulate the property prices but then you said again
that you are looking at prices. Can you maybe Madam, as far as that
is concerned, be more specific exactly what you mean? Thank you,
Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: No, you will remember that
the estate agency is an institution on its own. Of course, it
accounts to the department, but they do their own functions on their
own. The Property Practitioners Bill which is coming to Parliament
is meant to assist them in areas where they feel there is a lock jam
here and there, but we stick by saying that we cannot influence
pricing. The market itself influences prices. I think we stick to
that. However, the issue of the Bill is at the request from the
estate agencies. Therefore, we will align for alignments – purely
for alignments because you must remember the estate agency was from

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the Trade and Industry. It is now with Human Settlements. There is
no legislation. It is purely for the guidelines. Thank you.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, I think it was early this year, if
I am correct, where the President said that there is going to be a
radical transformation of the economy. Now, if you say that you are
going to have radical transformation of the economy which is tilted
one side, you cannot then leave the regulation of the land and
housing to the estate agencies if you are in government. That is not
right because we sit here while the majority of our people are
without proper houses. I am not talking about these smaller houses,
these made ... [Inaudible.] ... I am talking about proper houses.
They cannot even buy land for your information. You cannot leave
that to the estate agency if you are in government and if you are
properly governing. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: There are number of
measures that the department is making in ensuring that the estate
agencies itself is as representative as it is supposed to be to
start on the issues of transformation. But, also we understand that
the estate agency itself in the main is composition in terms of
property market is still remains. But, we believe that the issues of
transformation are a process and we need to work together as South
Africans in the process of transforming our country, particularly on
the matters of property because that is where the crux matter is and
the land issues.

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We are not losing sight of the fact that there is a lot of work that
needs to be done around the issues of estate agency. However, there
is a plan that we are working on. As time goes by we would engage
South Africans in that. We have begun by having conferences with the
estate agencies themselves some time last year. Therefore, there is
a work and there is an obligation on their part to include the other
people within the estate agency ombud.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, I just want to check whether the
hon Deputy Minister, is the Community Schemes Ombud Service, CSOS,
proposed regulations that will be presented soon may probably
tomorrow or the other week to the House not trying to address the
issue of regulating the property estate agencies. I am not talking
about the price now; I am talking about the management of the estate
agencies. Are the CSOS regulations that are proposed by the
department not trying to address that?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The CSOS regulations will
also assist this process of the estate agencies. You must remember
CSOS is in the main focus on the housing institutions in terms of
the property, the flats, etc. This is the area where estate agency
operates in, in the main. Definitely, there will be subject of
discussion in that process because without estate agency being
discussed if you put in place the guidelines of CSOS you have left
the final ombud outside. So, it is in that environment that will be
discussed. However, we are saying that that should not be the last

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line of operating with the estate agency board. That is why the
Property Practitioners Bill is critical to finally put everything
together including the matters of transformation that the member was
talking about.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, through you to the Deputy
Minister, I am even more confused. Is it a plan? Is it a guideline?
Is it regulation? Is it a Bill? What is it? Can I request or in my
question ask the Deputy Minister, please come to the select
committee to explain this to us, please, or alternatively send us a
copy of it even if it is electronically so that we can get more
information for ourselves because it is a bit ... [Inaudible.] ...
here and jumping all over this way, I do not know what it is. I am
more confused.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, it is a point of order: Hon Julius is not
the member of the committee. As members of the committee, we are not
confused. If he wants information we can, as well as members of the
committee, provide him with the information. It is a point of order,
Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I am not sustaining the
point of order. Hon Julius, conclude your question.

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Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I do not have to be a member of the
committee to be confused because even the members also ...
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Julius, I have
protected you that is why I said that I am not sustaining the point
of order. You are in order.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes, I am with the member‘s question, hon Zwane‘s
question. Even the member that asked the question is confused
because the Minister said that there is no such thing. In that light
I am requesting the Minister to please brief us on this plan,
guideline regulation or a Bill or something. Thank you.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: ... [Inaudible.] Rules on a point of order that
says members cannot continue to raise point of orders that are
frivolous. Members continue to do that and raise point of orders
that are frivolous and that I think it borders again on the
integrity of the House. Can you please make a final ruling on this
or I do not know how ... [Inaudible.] ... do you have to chuck
members out if it is possible.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, he is not referring to
you; I am sustaining your point of order. You are in order, hon
Mthimunye. Hon Deputy Minister!

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: There is Faber.

Mr W F FABER: Yes, Chairperson, I just want to say that it is very
clear. Albert Einstein said: If you can‘t explain it simply, you
don‘t understand it well enough.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, you are out of
order. Hon Deputy Minister!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, there are two
processes which are before us as we speak. One process is the
process that gets introduced by a Chairperson of the Select
Committee on Human Settlements that speaks about the guidelines
which are before the select committee on CSOS. It is a separate
process. There is a process that we are bringing in, in terms of the
Department of Human Settlements which is Property Practitioners Bill
– it is a Bill. She is saying, which is correct, that they are not
going to be able to discuss those guidelines if they do not touch
the issue of the estate agency which is correct. Thank you.

Launch of Braille National ID booklet

62. Ms M L Moshodi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of Arts and
Culture:

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How does the launch of the Braille National Identity Booklet for
the visually-impaired by the Deputy Minister assist in (a)(i)
inculcating and (ii) entrenching a sense of patriotism amongst
visually-impaired persons across the racial divide and (b)
educating (i) learners and (ii) citizens regarding the national
symbols?

CO246E

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, this is a point of order. I apologise
to the Deputy Minister, but I just need you to quote the Rule that
says a Minister from another department can actually ... We have a
Rule Book - we have a Rule Book! Is it the Constitution? What
relevant Rule states that we can allow this? I know earlier, the hon
Tau asked us for that.

I am just asking you for the record. I don‘t want to be ... I want
to learn, but I can‘t find where I should read it from. So, as a
Presiding Officer of this House or the Chief Whip – oh, the Chief
Whip is gone- can you just state the Rule. We can continue, but I
just need you to state the Rule that you are using now in granting
that order or the suggestion from the Chief Whip. Thank you, Chair.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I will probably get to the
specific Rule before the end of the session, but there is nothing
that is against the Rules of the Council to have either a Deputy
Minister or a Minister, even from another department, representing
another Minister. It is part of the procedures, as long as they make

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such an arrangement to have a person that will be responding to the
question.

The whole essence of the exercise is for accountability; it is not
for any individual. So, we are engaging in that exercise to make
sure that we hold a relevant person who is representing the Minister
to account when we are deliberating on questions.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Sorry for the dialogue. Accountability is precisely
the reason why I asked the question. Can you delegate it? What law
says that you can delegate your accountability? [Interjections.]
House Chair, we will ask questions here; someone must be held
accountable. I just need you to state the Rule.

We have Table staff. Before you grant that permission to the Chief
Whip, you should have been able to give this House an explanation in
terms of the Rule that you are applying. I am not being troublesome;
I want to learn, as I said. [Interjections.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I am not saying you are
troublesome in any way. You are in order, hon Julius. That is what I
am saying that I don‘t want to do it piecemeal. I am saying I am
going to do justice to what you are raising, but I don‘t want to
bore this session down to modalities. Let us allow the session to go
on. I will attend to it, don‘t worry. We are starting with Question
62 – hon Moshodi.

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION ON BEHALF OF MINISTER OF ARTS
AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I am tempted to
respond, but I will leave to the hon Chair to do so. However, there
is no Rule prohibiting a delegation of authority by one member of
the executive to the other. I think I have been part quite
instrumental in the formulation of the Rules for this particular
House many times ago.

I have been here this morning, and I come here again. It is probably
because of the attachment to this particular House. I represent the
hon Minister of Arts and Culture. With regard to the question, the
reply is as follows, and the question has two parts to it: In 2001,
the department undertook a research on recognitions levels of
National Symbols. The findings of the research indicated that the
symbols were less recognised by the citizens of South Africa. The
research concluded with recommendations, amongst which, was that
symbols be popularised, especially in schools.

Since then, there had been a number of national symbols
popularisation endeavours in schools. The National Identity Passport
of Patriotism booklet is one of those interventions to promote and
advance pride in the identity of South Africa as a country. The
booklet covers the needs of special schools, and will be
incorporated into their curriculum. In doing so, learners will
acknowledge a common South African national identity and become
patriotic citizens.

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In South Africa, there are a large number of schools catering for
the visual-impaired people. Through this initiative the department
is strengthening its mandate to provide access to all South
Africans. South Africa, like many African countries, emerged from an
oppressive, divisive and colonial system which created a fragmented
society.

Nation building became a central focus after 1994, and to

achieve this vision, the national symbols of the new South Africa
had to be established to convey identity of the country and its
people as critical elements on national identity.

One had to just look at the flag that is being waved when carried by
our athletes who were successful in the Olympic Games to be able to
identify and understand the importance of these very important
symbols.

With regard to the second part of the question, the National
Identity Passport of Patriotism booklet is an informative reference
book profiling South African national symbols. It also presents
short history of the various symbols as well as protocol around
national symbols.

So, for example, when the anthem is being sung, what is the protocol
and how do you respect it. Do you place your hand in your heart or
do you hold your hands to the side? These are very important
elements in terms of recognising, affirming and respecting the
symbols of this but our country.

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The development of this booklet in Braille is to ensure that
teachers and visually-impaired learners are able to access
information on national symbol for their own knowledge and growth.
With regard to the last part of the sub question, the booklet will
also be made available to the Library for the Blind. Thus, it is not
only limited to schools, learners and teachers, but also to society
at large. I thank you hon Chair.

Mrs M L MOSHODI: Ke a leboha, Modulasetulo. Dikarabo tsohle tseo ke
neng ke di hloka, ke di fumane. [Thank you, Chairperson. I have
received all the responses I was looking for.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Now, we come to
Question 91 from hon Julius. [Interjections.] Sorry, hon Deputy
Minister. Hon Mokwele!

Ms T J MOKWELE: I just want to find out whether we have dealt with
all follow-up questions or not?

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, if there are no hands we are
moving. If there are hands, I won‘t suppress them. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, but I raised my hand!

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HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I am sorry, but you must make
sure that you raise it up. [Interjections.] No, you must make sure
that you raise it up. However, it was not up. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not misleading the Chair because I know ...
[Interjections.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon ... Okay, lets us be alive to
the session. Hon Deputy Minister, let‘s deal with the question of
hon Julius.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Motho yo o boditseng potso o tshwanetse go araba
pele re ka araba. Nyaa Modulasetulo, o seka wa tlhola o dira jalo,
re a go kopa. [The questioner must first respond before we do.
Chairperson, please don‘t ever do that.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I will check all the sides.

Objectives for social cohesion/nation building

91.

Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Arts and
Culture:

What progress has been made on his department‘s objectives for
social cohesion and nation building in the context of a
contemporary South Africa?

CO275E

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, and thanks to the hon Julius for raising a
very, very, important issue.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, no man.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Thank you, hon sister from Bojanala. The founding
provisions of the Constitution describe South Africa as a country
that is committed to the creation of a nonracial, nonsexist, united
and democratic society. To this end it is important, given our
divisive past, to be able to able to build a cohesive society. This
requires a particularly important effort and contribution by all
population groups to ensure that we create an inclusive society. And
for this reason the National Development Plan, NDP, speaks
particularly about the values and importance of nation-building and
social cohesion because they certainly deal with the fabric of
society in the endeavour to create this united, nonracial, nonsexist
society.

This would mean in whatever we do, we should ensure that we are
inclusive but also take into account the enormous disparities that
exist in terms of the provision of amenities as a result of the past
colonial and apartheid rule and how do we address this. More
importantly, the Constitution is founded on three important values,
and these are human dignity, equality and freedom. Human dignity is

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the affirmation and recognition of the self-worth and self-respect
of people. This have been violated consistently in the past and it
is therefore important for society as it develops itself as nationbuilding occurs to recognise, value and affirm the dignity of other
people. Therefore the centrality of human dignity in our
Constitution is emphasised and re-emphasised both as a value and as
a right.

The Department of Arts and Culture has taken specific steps to
ensure that this happens. It does so through the symbols that are
reflected on or adopted by this country. The national anthem itself,
not withstanding the views of some political parties, has been the
first attempt at nation-building in that it incorporated different
versions to ensure that as South Africans we collectively sing it.
Not withstanding our attachment to a particular anthem - in the case
also of the ruling party – our the attachment to Nkosi Sikelel’
iAfrika, as it is quite known and established, but for purposes of
nation-building we incorporated elements of Die Stem, both the
English and the Afrikaans version to ensure that we create this
common identity. And quite incredibly and quite interestingly if you
go to any school in the country you hear the entire anthem being
sung by all our learners. In other words, 12 million learners are
today able to sing the anthem with great pride. Another important
issue to understand is the flag, that is, its symbols that are a
narrative of unity and diversity of our country. The Coat of Arms
itself is a reflection of another important symbol because it

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affirms again our unity through diversity. So the nation-building is
about creating an inclusive society that is free from prejudice,
from racial discrimination, from gender discrimination and therefore
should instil in all citizens a sense of pride.

Now why it is when we should indeed speak to this particular
phenomenon is that, not withstanding the fact that we have gone a
long way with regard to nation-building, there are still elements of
racism that persists in society. We have the Sparrow case in Durban
and we have had, for example, a member of the DA who, as Member of
Parliament, MP, was supposed to represent the common values of our
Constitution but indulged in the same activity. And unless we
confront and not be apologetic about it, we are not going to be able
to change the fabric and character of our society. We therefore have
a common purpose in this regard.

To this end, this Council, and the National Assembly as well as
municipalities and legislatures, have the particular responsibility
to ensure that as public representatives they seek to unite to
create inclusive societies, to be tolerant of each other‘s views and
to respect the diversity. I think the outcome of the elections and
the general conduct of all political parties and citizens of this
country is a clear reflection of the maturity of our democracy. We
are indeed moving forward, we are not confronting each other
violently and we are still able to engage each other even though we
do so robustly. That is a positive sign. However, we should

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recognise that the value of doing what we do should not basically
only be the responsibility of educators in schools but should start
in our homes. The creation of this kind of society, the ethos which
were set out in the Freedom Charter that South Africa belongs to all
who live in it, black and white, should commence at home in the
early days of a child, through his or her infancy and through school
were these values are embedded.

We have discovered, however, within schools themselves that there
are some educators who tend to frown upon this particular aspiration
of a nonracial, nonsexist society. The Life Orientation life skills
which promote inclusivity and a fair and important recognition of
human dignity is somewhat marginalised or in the periphery. We do
believe that, that is an important task we need to confront. So
these, hon Julius, are some of the efforts that are being made. In
this regard, the Department of Basic Education, the Department of
Arts and Culture, the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, responsive for local government, the
Department of Minerals and Energy, the Department of Trade and
Industry and all the other sister departments, the Minister of Women
in the presidency, the Minister responsible for youth affairs are
all certainly engaged in a collective responsibility to promote this
particular facet of nation building.

I conclude by stating that nation building can not occur in a
vacuum. Not withstanding our values, we have to address issues of

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socioeconomic changes. Therefore a radical economic transformation
contributes very positively and purposefully to the creation of this
society. Thank you very much hon Chair.

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair to the Deputy Minister, I must say I
really like the answer that you gave. You know, the Department of
Arts and Culture mentioned that nation-building in the context of
South Africa, cannot be the perpetuation of hierarchies of the past,
based on pregiven and ethically engineered and imposed divisions of
people rooted in prejudice, discrimination and exclusion. I think
you dealt with that also. So, thank you for that. But during the 3rd
August election campaign President Zuma made a statement that he
cannot understand why black people vote for the DA and let alone
leading the DA. This statement seeks to divide our nation along
racial lines and is polarising our society.

This statement, coming from a sitting President - a head of state is certainly helping neither us nor these departments you mentioned
in our endeavours toward nation-building and social cohesion. Now,
you mentioned social cohesion and you also said we have gone a long
way and we should confront these issues. You mentioned a few issues
we should confront and I totally agree with you. As the DA, we
confront these issues. We made statements. We do everything we can
to confront these issues. Now my question to you, Deputy Minister as
the ...

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order members! Order members!

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... representative of this department today: Do you
agree with this statement or will you dare be man enough, choose the
Constitution and social cohesion and condemn this statement by the
President? Will you confront this issue - and I agree with you like you suggested? Do you agree with this? Is this, in terms of
your mandate as the representative of the Department of Arts and
Culture, what we can call nation-building? Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, I thank hon Julius for raising the
question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
members, do not drown the speaker because you will end up raising a
hand and asking the very same question that has been responded to.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, the nature of the follow-up question
demands a political response rather than a government response. If
at all the hon Julius had basically spoken about general
responsibilities of heads of state. One could say, addressing a
gathering in that particular capacity as head of state, the cut and
thrust of political robust debate should be avoided, but the

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responsibility would be a very different and more sanguine one.
Whereas as a leader of a political party, in the cut and thrust and certainly this is important - of debates you basically take a
different position because it is about convincing people and
constituencies.

So, for example, the EFF and the DA would then, particularly the DA
for example - and I will give you a good example - would usurp the
leadership of the ANC in a political environment, stating that
indeed this is our leader, these are the values that he stands for.
They are projecting the leader of the ANC, usurping him as their own
in the context of a political debate. Now, that is part of the cut
and thrust of political debate. I am not going to sit and split
hairs about this particular matter but I would want to argue with
respect that, if indeed

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order, members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: ... the President of this country had spoken as a in his
capacity as President to a gathering and said what he said, it would
have been responsible. But in the context of political debate, as
had occurred with the leader of the DA, things that would otherwise
not been acceptable would indeed be acceptable. That is part of our
robust democracy.

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Finally, it is very difficult to cast aside the legacy of the past.
We can not say that the DA was not a party that represented the
white minority interests. We can not say that the DA has been a
party that sought to assimilate people into the society. Slowly it
might be changing but the realities of its past, the realities of
the vested interests represented cannot be shirked away by simply
saying, that is not our identity, we have now transformed and
metamorphosised.

So in the context of political debate one could say and argue that,
indeed, you must take the responsibility of what you represented in
the past. You might want to say that indeed we want to transform, we
no longer associate ourselves, as the DA, with the values of the
Democratic Party, DP, but we now associate with the noble values of
the president of the ANC who stood for nonracialism, nonsexism and
an inclusive society. I would imagine that is the kind of view one
should take. But I certainly would not want to have acrimony. And I
think the mere respect of all political parties is what is paramount
and foremost in the minds of our people. We should allow this kind
of engagement because it makes life more exciting, hon Julius. Thank
you for raising it. But I do believe that, particularly with regard
to the younger generation of leaders, we should develop mutual
respect and create a nonracial, nonsexist society. Thank you.
[Applause.]

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Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson to the hon Deputy Minister, I agree with
you in all the things you have said at the beginning when responding
to the original question. You know, the ideal South Africa that you
painted, the patriotism that we want to instil to all South
Africans, is so true, but now the problem is how do we get to that.
What is government doing? My question, Deputy Minister, is very
simple and I did ask this to the Minister when he was here, but I
did not get a satisfactory answer. Why does government continue to
use national days, government resources bought out of taxpayer‘s
money - which is our money as patriotic citizens of this country –
for political rallies of a political party instead of using them for
the attainment of that ideal South Africa we all want. Why, Deputy
Minister? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, I think the question has two parts. Why do
we have these important commemoration events? Certainly, the reason
why we have ... [Interjections.]

Mr M KHAWULA: The Deputy Minister is out of order; that is not what
I said. I didn‘t say that.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Okay, if that is not the question I would imagine the hon
member understands the reason and the rationale for having these
important anniversaries and these important celebrations. The

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question then is: When you have such celebrations should you exclude
people who wear a T-shirt or any attire that bears the insignia of a
political party? That may be one of the reasons. Do we exclude them
or do we include them? I would certainly believe that in an event
such as that, which is a national event, a person could come with
any political party‘s T-shirt or any paraphernalia belonging to any
political party. That is the measure of the tolerance of all
political parties. I think it would be unfair and unreasonable, and
I think this is what the hon member wants to hear, to utilise that
as a platform for a particular political party.

I think an event such as Youth Day must be focussed on promoting
youth across the board and an event like Women‘s Day should be
promoting women across the board. That is why when we celebrate or
when we commemorate the 60th anniversary of the Women‘s March, we do
not speak only about Lillian Ngoyi, we speak about Helen Joseph, and
we speak about Amina Cachalia, about Rahima Moosa and Sophia de
Bruyn. In other words we speak about the women who represent the
different racial groups in order to create an inclusive society.
This was done quite consciously and deliberately in 1955 and I think
we must promote those particular values of inclusivity. We must be
able to say, irrespective of your race or class or rank, the fact
that you are a woman means that you have been discriminated against
and you need empowerment.

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And certainly that should be the message, not the message that is
parochial and confined to one political party. It should be more
pervasive and cut across all political parties. Amandla, comrade!
Thank you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair to the Deputy Minister, I understand that you
want South Africa to be united, but we cannot run away from the fact
that as South Africans, particularly us blacks, have been robbed of
our land, have been robbed of our resources on land and beneath
water. We have been robbed of our dignity. [Interjections.] Now, as
the Deputy Minister - I am not asking you this question in your
capacity as the Deputy Minister of Basic Education, but as the
representative of the Department of Arts and Culture Ministry - are
you willing to get rid of the apartheid symbols ... [Interjections.]
... especially those that remind us of the hardships we went through
as blacks? Another question that I want to pose to you, hon Deputy
Minister is: It is evident that ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele. Order members. Hon Mokwele, The hon Deputy Minister has got
four minutes, and if you are going to ask two questions ...
[Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: No, it is one; it is a similar question.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Okay.

Ms T J MOKWELE: It is evident that the ANC government has massacred
people in Marikana and there is nothing that your department is
saying in terms of building a memorial for those people. Now, this
is what I want to ask you, Minister: Is your Ministry willing to
build anything that will remind us of what happened during the ANC
era? Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you. Hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon member, with regard to ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Sorry, hon Deputy Minister. Hon Hattingh?

Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you, hon Chair. I‘ve listened to the very brave
Deputy Minister of Basic Education but unfortunately he does not
represent the Minister of Arts and Culture, has not presented an ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No
hon Hattingh!

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Mr C HATTINGH: I‘m serious. We have ... These questions ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
What is the purpose of you rising? I thought it‘s a point of order.

Mr C HATTINGH: It is a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Okay, make your point of order.

Mr C HATTINGH: Don‘t shout me down. You don‘t shout me down!
[Interjections.] This is about ... This is a ... this is a ...
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order members! I don‘t need your assistance.

Mr C HATTINGH: This is about ... this is about ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order! Order, hon Hattingh!

Mr C HATTINGH: I say you don‘t shout me down.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, let me address you. Order, members! I can handle the situation.

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I‘m saying that I thought you were rising on a point. What is your
point of order? I‘m not shouting you down. I‘m giving you an
opportunity to make your point of order.

Mr C HATTINGH: Please give me that opportunity. Don‘t interrupt me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi: I‘m
giving you that opportunity.

Mr C HATTINGH: Can you remain silent for one minute?
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Make a point of order please.

Mr C HATTINGH: My point of order is that the attempt by the Deputy
Minister to represent another department lacks legitimacy and
authenticity. The Deputy Minister cannot contemplate how the
Minister of Arts and Culture would have responded. We have to reengage on these questions; all of them. It doesn‘t cost any
legitimacy.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Hattingh, unfortunately that is not a point of order. Hon Mokwele
has raised a question and the Deputy Minister is supposed to respond
to the question. [Interjections.]

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Mr C HATTINGH: ... [Inaudible.] ... understand that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
it‘s not a point of order.

Mr C HATTINGH: It‘s a procedural point. You cannot have the Minister
of Science coming here to answer on Education. It cannot ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Can
you sit down?

Mr C HATTINGH: I can.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Can
you please sit down.

Mr C HATTINGH: I can sit down.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you.

Mr C HATTINGH Do you want me to sit?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, thank you. Hon Deputy Minister?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR THE MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Sorry, hon Deputy Minister. Hon Julius?

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, also on a point of order that I raised
earlier, and you said you will come back to me. Can we include this
just to help the process and for the future? A Deputy Minister is
not part of the executive. A Deputy Minister ... [Inaudible.] ...
Ministers can represent other Ministers. Can we just check on it?
I‘m just mentioning it. Deputy Ministers cannot represent another
Ministry or another department. They can represent within their
department. They are not part of the executive. Can we just check on
that? It‘s linked to the prior one.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Let
me deal with it once and for all, hon Julius. Order members! Hon
Julius, when we were sworn in as members we were given the
Constitution. After that it was rules and it was training. I‘m not
in any way trying to turn this session into one of those sessions
that we went through. However, what we are involved in now is not
something that is happening for the first time. It‘s a basic
convention of the National Council of Provinces. There is nothing
that prohibits a Deputy Minister or a Minister to come and deal with

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questions. It‘s a convention. So let‘s allow the hon Deputy Minister
to respond to hon Mokwele‘s question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR THE MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, one of the symbols we celebrate as a
constitutional democracy is our Constitution.

[Interjections.] Eina! Is dit seer of wat? [Ouch! Is it painful or
not?] [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: They are still in the mood of celebrating so they ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order. I want to raise the
order and I want to support my colleagues who rose on this point. We
know it is a convention that a Minister can appoint somebody else to
address and take his questions. Normally that person is the Deputy
Minister in that specific department.

We also have the issue ... I will take you further back in history
when, on Taking Parliament to the People, the Ministers were
supposed to be there to answer questions. Hon Tau raised the issue
that if the Minister could be there whether the directors-general
could answer. We raised that point and that was not ...
[Interjections.] ... that was ... [Interjections.]

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
let‘s allow the point of order to finish first. [Interjections.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I want to ... [Interjections.] Please, can I just
finish this?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Labuschagne, can you ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: So I just want to know ... In a question of
oversight it is a convention that when a Minister answers the
questions there are no follow up questions to that Minister because
that Deputy Minister is not part of that department. He cannot be
accountable for a department that he is not responsible for. So we
are really mixing the lines here. And if ... [Interjections.]

We need to sort out the Order of the Day because up till now there
is no Order of the Day in this Sitting. I am well aware of the fact.
We were lenient and we were patient. [Interjections.] Can my dear
colleague please give me a chance? [Interjections.] Up till now ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order members!

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: It is the responsibility of the Chief Whip‘s
office to determine the Order of the Day. I cannot be told that

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Ministers in this Cabinet do not know a week before what their plans
for a Tuesday are. It is impossible that eight Ministers could not
know what their plans for today were, and has been changed within an
hour. So, there is no co-ordination in that office. There is no
proper planning. This House looks the way it does today because
there is no planning in the first place.

Secondly with all due respect, this is not the first time that you
have made a rule from that chair with confidence and tell us that
you have been trained, and then you made the wrong ruling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you. Hon members, hopefully I‘m doing it for the last time.
When we started I explained the very same point that you are
raising, hon Labuschagne. There is nothing wrong ... let me repeat
... there is nothing wrong with a Minister or a Deputy Minister
representing another Minister, even from another department. That‘s
a convention of this Parliament. If members of the National Council
of Provinces are aggrieved about this process — Now, we are engaged
in a process of even dealing with our own rules — let‘s take it up
and try to change what we think is not right, but there is nothing
wrong in what we are doing. An impression must not be created that
we are involved in something that is illegal or that we are
undermining the rules of the NCOP. No rules are being undermined.
Hon Labuschagne that is why, even if you stand up, I‘ll give you an
opportunity. You can‘t refer me to a rule that is being violated in

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terms of what we are doing. If we are violating a rule I will give
you an opportunity to quote the rule that we are violating.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you for the opportunity. We are well aware
of the convention. I did not refer to a rule. I referred to the
convention that you referred to. I am referring to the convention.
We are well aware of the fact that a Minister, as part of the
Cabinet, can appoint his Deputy or ask another Minister. However,
with all due respect to the hon Deputy Minister who is sitting there
— it‘s nothing against him — a Deputy Minister from one department
cannot represent a Minister from another department. I‘m sorry that
we have to wash our internal House conflicts and things, and not
follow convention in front of this Minister who is absolutely trying
to do something, taking responsibility and ... [Interjections.] ...
answering for a department that he is not part of. We are here.
Questions are not just questions. Questions are here to do
oversight. If the Deputy Minister of Basic Education cannot answer
the questions for the Minister of Sports and Culture and we raise
that the answers are not satisfactory, it is not oversight.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Can
you take your seat? Take your seat.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I will write a letter regarding this to
you. We can step off from this but I will not leave this now.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, Thank you. Hon members, in front of me I have the rules and I
have the Constitution. I expected a member who is standing up to say
in terms of Rule 47 a(1) we are violating that rule. You are not
recognised Labuschagne. Write that letter and it will be attended
to. Let‘s allow the hon Deputy Minister to respond to hon Mokwele‘s
question. Hon Smit? No, let me deal with hon Smit. Sorry hon Deputy
Minister.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, on a point of clarity. If the hon
... [Interjections.] Can you give me an opportunity to finish? I
respect you; respect me please. On a point of clarity, if a Deputy
Minister makes a statement on a department which he or she for that
matter does not represent, can they be held accountable for that? I
want clarity with regard to that because if we talk about
accountability, when there‘s a statement made or an answer given
here and it‘s a false statement, can they be held accountable for
that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
hon Smit, there‘s a procedure in terms of rules when ... No, I‘m
assisting you. There‘s a procedure in terms of the rule of the
National Council of Provinces when a Minister or a Deputy Minister
comes here to make a particular statement. We are dealing with
questions now and we have a Minister and a Deputy Minister who is

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responding to questions. It‘s a totally different thing altogether.
Hon Smit?

Mr C F B SMIT: I think you misunderstand me, hon House Chair. Maybe
I should rephrase. In response to a question, if a Deputy Minister
who is not representative of a specific department gives a response,
a commitment or whatever on that specific department and it is a
false response, can they be held accountable? It‘s a question that I
need clarity on.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Okay, I get you. Hon members, I wonder why you are creating an
impression that oversight is cast in stone. It‘s only the Question
Session that we are involved in here. That‘s why when hon Dlamini
tried to intervene and raised a point of order when hon Julius asked
a question I dismissed the point of order and I sustained what was
raised by hon Julius. I explained that there‘s nothing that
prohibits hon Julius from attending any committee as an alternate or
as a member of the National Council of Provinces. So we are going to
have departments accounting when they come to select committees and
when they come to respond to questions. It‘s not only what is
happening here that we are going to be done with departments. So
that is why what you are raising is not an issue that can hold us
back from continuing with the Question and answer session now. Hon
Labuschagne?

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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... [Inaudible.] ... convention in the NCOP then
allow a Deputy Minister from Water Affairs to attend the Select
Committee on Education and give answers?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
There‘s nothing that will stop ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No, no, this is what you said.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order members!

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: This is what ... Hon Chair that is what you just
said now. That is the implication of it. That is not a convention in
this NCOP. So why are there different rules? If you read the rules
and conventions the same things apply to select committees and this
House. So you cannot go that way. The Deputy Minister can answer the
question on the Question Paper that was given to him because the
Minister who requested him to stand in for him or her would have
given the answer. We are all on the same level. However, the Deputy
Minister from one department standing in for a Minister of another
department cannot answer the follow up questions. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
... [Inaudible.] ... let me deal with it once and for all. Hon
Labuschagne, when you concluded in stating your own views you said

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you are going to write a letter so that your issue can be attended
to accordingly and I agreed with you. I said that is the right step.
So now let us allow the hon Deputy Minister to respond to hon
Mokwele‘s question. Hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR THE MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: ... [Inaudible.] ... and I don‘t know if ... well, it is
back. The sound is back. One of the responsibilities of the Ministry
of Arts and Culture is to promote the Constitution. I say so as a
member of the executive and the Constitution provides that both
Ministers and Deputy Ministers form part of the executive. That is
in the Constitution. I say that without any shadow of doubt and
certainly I would imagine that part of this constitutional awareness
is to educate our people in terms of what its contents is. So, one
gets rather surprised if a representative in a House such as this —
in the highest House — is unaware of the fact that a Deputy Minister
forms part of the national executive. That is one.

Secondly, Ministers sit on subcommittees of Cabinet. So as a
Minister of Basic Education I sit with the Minister of Arts and
Culture in the subcommittee. So does my hon colleague who is sitting
here with me. Amongst the things we do in Cabinet subcommittees is
to receive quarterly reports from the various Ministries. So I know
for example that when Arts and Culture reports back to Cabinet or
the subcommittee of Cabinet it says that this has been our outreach
in relation to the promotion of the Constitution. It would say,

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amongst other things, that the Department of Basic Education has
assisted us to the extent that it has produced more than 55 million
copies of the Preamble for every single child in this country. So
there is integration in terms of the activities between Basic
Education and Arts and Culture, and for that reason I speak with a
reasonable sense of understanding and authority in relation to these
matters.

However, let us respond to the questions that have indeed been
raised. The hon member from the EFF would be very, very proud to
know that in 1994 her homeboy, upon arriving at this very
institution, discovered two statues, one of Verwoerd and one of
Vorster. His first address to this House — it was then the Senate —
was that we cannot allow these oppressive symbols to be within the
precincts of Parliament. As a result of that and intervention
through the Rules Committee we were able to remove the busts of B J
Vorster as well as Verwoerd. So I‘m saying to you that it is not
new. It was within the precincts of Parliament that we were able to
do that.

With regard to the second question, I think we have a particular
responsibility in promoting and respecting human rights. Where there
is a violation of human rights and where loss of life has occurred
there is no reason why we should not constantly and regularly remind
our nation of the fact that there has been a gross violation of
human rights, and never again must we be found wanting in terms of

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respecting human rights and human life. That is my response to the
questions.

Really, honestly and quite seriously, if at all the Deputy Minister
of Basic Education is unaware of the content or the appropriate
response then he would have the humility to say I am unsure about
this particular element. I will request my colleague to provide the
answers and report back to the House. The questions that were asked
were of a purely political nature and both the hon Julius as well as
the hon member from the IFP said that they were certainly heartened
and delighted by the thoroughness of the response. I find it rather
extraordinary that the hon Hattingh, also from the same party, now
says how is it that the Deputy Minister of Basic Education can act
for the Minister of Arts and Culture. Is it because his colleague is
in full agreement with the response that he received? I do not know.
I thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, I do not wish to waste your
time too much but on a point of order. I think that it must be
brought to your attention that the first statement by the hon Deputy
Minister is slightly misleading. I want to refer both you and the
Deputy Minister to section 91 of the Constitution which deals with
the Cabinet. I would‘ve thought that the Deputy Minister knows
section 91. It says that the Cabinet ... [Interjections.]

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR THE MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: ... [Inaudible.] ... Cabinet is part of the national
executive made up of Ministers. The national executive, in terms of
the Constitution, is made up of Ministers and Deputy Ministers. So I
would ask the hon member to please empower himself before he raises
frivolous points of order. [Applause.]

Transformation of Delville Wood Memorial

70. Mr D M Stock (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Arts and
Culture:

What action is his department taking to transform the Delville
Wood Memorial to portray an inclusive and non-racial South
Africa (details furnished)?

CO254E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE): Chairperson, I shall read the reply of the hon Minister of
Arts and Culture.

The South African government, through the Department of Arts and
Culture, has completed the first phase of the transformation of the
racial, spatial layout of the Delville Wood Memorial Museum through
the internment of the remains of Private Beleza Myengwa, a black
soldier. The internment of Private Beleza was presided over by
Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa at Delville Wood in 2014.

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Further plans to renovate and develop the site have been proposed to
transform this heritage resource so that it resembles and showcases
a completely free and non-racial South Africa and, in so doing,
honours all those South African, regardless of race, regardless of
creed or rank, who died for their country in World War One and World
War Two.

To this end, a garden of remembrance and a refurbished museum were
officially launched by President Zuma and his counterpart, François
Holland, President of France, on 12 July 2016.

The new museum included a newly installed exhibition on the SS Mendi
which highlights the role of black people during the war. The SA
Heritage Resources Agency, an agency of the Department of Arts and
Culture, has issued for comment a Gazette notice intending to
declare the site a South African national heritage site in 2016.

The thrust of this year is that there has been a mythical belief
that only white soldiers fought in World War One and World War Two.
The reality is that black soldiers fought for the freedom of this
world in both world wars, and that the SS Mendi was one of the ships
that were sunk during World War Two. It had scores of African and
South African soldiers on boards who all perished as a result. Thank
you.

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Mr D STOCK: Hon House Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy
Minister for the comprehensive response. I have no doubt in my mind
that you have given me a comprehensive response.

Now you and I will understand that, from the school of thought that
we are coming from, and also coming from the same political party,
we don‘t just speak about transformation and don‘t practice it. The
party that we represent today or that we stand for here in
Parliament is very, very clear in terms of the agenda of
transformation and no-racialism. So I am quite comfortable about the
response that you are giving. In fact it is not lip service; it‘s an
approach or a transformational agenda of the party that we
represent.

Now in light of that, hon Deputy Minister, I don‘t want to waste
your time and raise frivolous questions or supporting questions. I
am very happy with the response.

Thank you very much hon House Chairperson. Can we proceed to deliver
services to our people and not waste time? I thank you.

Allegations of mismanagement at Pansalb

110.

Ms N P Mokgosi (Northern Cape: EFF) asked the Minister of Arts
and Culture:

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(a) What are the recommendations of the investigation by the
National Treasury into the allegations of mismanagement at the
Pan South African Language Board between June 2012 and
September 2014 and (b) what steps have been taken to implement
the recommendations?

CO295E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE): House Chairperson, this is a very important Question and I
will try to give the reply as comprehensively as possible, given the
Quetsion‘s importance. I thank the hon member for raising this. The
reply is as follows.

The recommendations of the investigation report into the allegations
of financial mismanagement relating to PanSALB are as follows.

First, an in-depth forensic investigation is conducted to establish
the validity of the appointments, the validity of payments made to
the service providers, and the verification of value for money to
the institution during the period under review.

Second, PanSALB should refer the possible contraventions of sections
38, 39 and 40 read with section 86 of the Public Finance Management
Act by the then CEO in relation to the appointment of service
providers, for criminal investigation by the SA Police Service, the
SAPS.

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Third, the SAPS criminal investigation should also cover any
possible elements of fraud and corruption as a result of this report
and the result of the recommended in-depth forensic investigation.

With regard to the second part, the progress in relation to the
matter with regard the forensic investigation is as follows. PanSALB
terminated the appointments of computer security and forensic
services Zamesa Communication and Sithole Mzumbo Consulting as there
were no valid contracts entered into with the organisations.

Second, PanSALB stopped payments to the service providers mentioned
as there were no valid contracts entered into.

Third, PanSALB terminated the contracts because, in some instances,
it had staff appointed to do the work which was contracted to these
service providers.

With regard to the second element – that PanSALB should refer
possible contraventions of sections 38, 39 and 40 – the progress is
as follows: The matter has not been referred to the SAPS by PanSALB
and this is being pursued.

With regard to the third element, the SAPS criminal investigation
should also cover any possible elements of fraud or corruption as a
result of the report. The answer is linked to the other one and that

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is that no criminal investigation has been conducted or concluded as
yet. Thank you.

Mme N P MOKGOSI: Ga go na modumo. Motlatsatona, dilo tse dingwe...
ka Setswana ba re, khudu ya mariga e itsiwe ke mmei wa yona. Jaanong
nako tse dingwe go botoka fa o botsa mong wa dilo gore dilo di
tsamaya jang mme ka gore o ipegile molato, ke tla botse wena. Ke
kopa gore o nkarabe ka nnete fela go sena sepe, ke a leboga. Ka gore
oa re dipatlisiso tse ga di ise di khutlisiwe, a ga o ka ke wa
ntshitshinyetsa fela gore fa o lebeletse di tla tsaya sebaka se se
kae gore di khutlisiwe ... (Translation of Setswana paragraph
follow.)

[Ms N P MOKGOSI: No noise here. Deputy Minister, some things ... it
is said in Setswana, it is better to ask the owner rather than
speculate. Sometimes it is better to ask the owner as to how things
are but since you sacrificed yourself, I will ask you. Please just
give me the honest truth and nothing else. You have said that these
investigation are not yet concluded, in your opinion, can you not,
for me, speculate as to how long they will take to conclude ...]

And what will be the sentence?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE): Chairperson, this is what I alluded to earlier when I said
that if I do not have the knowledge of that particular detail, I

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will ask the hon Minister to provide the information to the hon
member because it is important that he does so.

What I can share with you is that the investigations, as a matter of
concern, have not been initiated or concluded, and that is what the
response said. Thank you.

Implementing programme of action

71.

Ms L L Zwane (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of Arts
and Culture:

What progress has been made by key delivery partner departments
regarding the implementation of the Government‘s programme of
action for social cohesion and nation building (details
furnished)?

CO255E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR THE MINISTER OF ARTS AND
CULTURE: Chairperson, the National Development Plan Vision for 2030,
specifically Chapter 15 calls for inclusion and unity by all South
Africans to work towards nation-building and social cohesion, and to
find the balance between healing the divisions of the past,
broadening economic opportunities for black persons in particular,
and building a sense of inclusion and common purpose amongst all
South Africans. This will be attained through a social compact.

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Significant progress has been made in this regard by Outcome 14
government programme of action departments co-ordinated by the
Department of Arts and Culture. The Outcome 14 MTEF approved by
cabinet in 2014 has served and continues to realise the following
pillars: firstly, fostering constitutional values – we‘ve spoken
about that; secondly, equal opportunities, inclusion and redress;
thirdly, promoting social cohesion across society through increased
interaction across race and class; and fourthly, promoting active
citizenry and leadership.

As I have indicated earlier, quarterly progress reports on the
attainment of the sub-outcomes have been submitted to cabinet and
suggestions for programmes for strategic impact further pursued. The
department and the deliberate partners have also engaged in a
process of redefining the targets and indicators in order to have
more meaningful impact on the ground.

It suffices to note that social cohesion is intangible and the
desired impact will not be realised in a short-term period but the
campaigns on patriotism, identity and civic responsibility have seen
the public being more informed by their rights and responsibilities.
The various departments – and I want hon members to listen to this
very carefully – and the institutions starting with the Department
of Basic Education; the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, Cogta; the Department of Communications, DoC;
the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME; the

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Department of Social Development; the Department of Justice and
Constitutional Development, the Department of Labour; the Department
of Sports and Recreation; the Department of Women; MRM and Brand SA
continue to work tirelessly and submit progress reports as detailed
in the previous quarterly reports.

Hon Chair, this basically will give you a good sense and this is a
response from the Arts and Culture which speaks to precisely the
points that I have raised, that The Department of Basic Education
forms part of the Social Cluster committee in which both the
Departments of Human Settlements and Basic Education serve.
Therefore, my response to the various issues was informed by the
content and presentations that were made at those sub-committee
meetings. I thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much hon Deputy Minister for the
response. Don‘t you think it is important that we come up with one
programme? I am aware that different departments will be doing
different things. But for a person like me, it will assist to know
that this department is doing this activity and the other department
is doing that activity so that when you have a report, you have a
collective report that responds to different activities by different
departments. Will it not help to have a report like that? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION FOR ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank
you colleague for raising this question. Perhaps it is a wonderful

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opportunity for the hon member and team members in this House to
look at the quarterly reports of the Department of Arts and Culture.
It sets out in clear detail what the area of priority is; what the
progress is there; what the impact is; and who in each department is
responsible for collaborating with the Department of Arts and
Culture. So, those details can be downloaded from the website and
are available quarterly. That will give all the hon members the
opportunity to have a clear overall integrated view of the
activities of the Department of Arts and Culture in relation to
social cohesion and nation-building. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Let me take this
opportunity to thank you Deputy Minister for availing yourself to
deal with arts and culture, representing the Minister of Arts and
Culture. I was not aware and have even forgotten that in South
Africa the Minister of Arts and Culture does not have a deputy.

Policy to address water provision

66. Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of Water
and Sanitation:

Whether there is a policy in place to address water provision to
communities that fall under economically depressed
municipalities; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?

CO250E

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, yes the
national government have a number of policies to enable water
provision to all communities in the Republic South Africa. The
policies and strategies are drafted in such a way that it targets
and focuses on economical depressed municipalities. Notably, we have
about 27 prioritised municipalities that were announced by the
President.

The provision is made for the development of infrastructure where
needed to, as well as operation and maintenance of existing
infrastructure. The following department‘s policy support equity in
the water sector as follows: The Water Supply and Sanitation Policy
of 1994, Strategic Framework for Water Services 2003, and the
National Water Policy Review of 2013. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Uyihlabe esikhonkosini. Ngiyabonga. [You have hit
the nail on the head. Thank you.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, thanks for the response, hon Deputy
Minister. Now, you say that there is provision, can you outline to
me in the budget for the current financial year, what framework is
there for providing these areas that are distressed in the country
in respect of this provision?

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon members, as we have said
that the combination of these policies help us to determine the

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areas that need support. So, on the basis of the provinces saying
these are depressed areas that will respond to these. Thanks,
Chairperson.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order, the Deputy Minister answered
nothing on the budget. Can she please answer hon Khawula‘s question?
If she can‘t do so, then she must say she doesn‘t have the answer
and we must postpone all the follow-up questions. Thank you.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, you have made
your point of order about the issue ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... being answered

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, you are not
even recognised now. Let me do it with outmost respect. Hon
Labuschagne, if a Minister or a Deputy Minister has responded and
you are not satisfied with the response, you cannot discuss and
debate the response. It‘s something else.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, the Deputy Ministers, each an every
person in this House. What is going on in this House is not about
parties and is not about who is right and who is wrong. This is
about the lives of people outside this House. We are sitting here
representing the people. We are asking questions because we get
these questions and these issues from the people outside. Now the

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Minister started to laugh when she was trying to answer this
question. That indicates that she doesn‘t take it seriously and that
she knows that she didn‘t answer this question. Now with all due
respect, let us be honest with each other. Let us not play these
games. This question was not answered and I am sitting here because
I am representing a constituency out there that is listening and
looking on the television to what we are doing in this House. Thank
you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, you have
made your point. Let me explain it. If there is a response and you
are not satisfied, you can‘t raise a point of order because you want
clarification. That is not a point of order.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: You are misusing your position in the Chair to
rule, just as you want to rule. We can‘t go along with the Rules
here, because this is wrong.

State of Rooiwal Water Treatment Plant

93. Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Water and
Sanitation:

(1)

What is the state of (a) functionality and (b) maintenance
of the Rooiwal Water Treatment Plant in Hammanskraal;

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(2)

PAGE: 267 of 318

whether she has been informed of the sewage overflow from
the Water Treatment Plant; if not, what is the position in
this regard; if so what are the relevant details?

CO277E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENT (FOR THE MINISTER OF WATER
AND SANITATION): Chairperson, the Rooiwal Water Treatment Plant is
organically and hydraulically overloaded. The chemical oxygen demand
concentration, an indicator of organic clouding on works has
increased beyond the original design concentration. This is due to
the combination of increased flows, due to the population growth in
the drainage area and as well as increased industrial flows received
at works. A direct expression of overloading is production of excess
sludge as incoming sewage is degraded posing management challenges.

Normally, an organically overloaded sewage treatment works would
produce a substandard affluent quality and most notably the
following will happen: poor removal of ammonia, partial oxidation of
chemical oxygen demand, COD, improved phosphate removal,
biodegradable COD, low nitrate levels owing to the incomplete
nitrification, high mixed liquor suspended solids, high sludge
blankets in the clarifiers, high suspended solids concentration due
to high solid loading on the secondary settling tanks and poor final
affluent disinfection. The sludge problems affect the functionality
of the sludge management and inadequate digestion infrastructure
leads to fly and odour production which affect the operation and
maintenance of the plant.

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The two dewatering plants cannot accommodate all sludge produced on
site. In addition, the dewatering plant installed for the
anaerobically digested sludge is old and prone to breakages. This
leads to internment operations at all times, disposal of sludge on
open lands during periods of prolonged downtown. The spares
necessary to resume operations have been ordered with supplier and
were expected to be delivered by 10 August 2016. The spares are
manufactured to order and thus not on shelf, which is the cause for
delays.

To prevent recurrence, a contractor will be appointed to supply
spares under tender number, SIDWS162015/2016. The washer water
system for the dewatering process is also owed due to cable theft.
The materials required for repairs have been procured and ready to
be installed. The installation will be timed to coincide with the
repairs of the dewatering plant to keep cable live at all times.

Mrs T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo yo o tlotlegang. Rona ga re utlwe gore
Motlatsatona a reng. O buisa ka lebelo le le kwa godimo thata e bile
ga re kgone go tlhaloganya ... [Hon Chairperson, we don‘t understand
the Deputy Minister. She is reading very fast and we find it
difficult to understand.]

... Can‘t you perhaps ask her to give us those responses, we will
read on our own because she can‘t even herself make sense of what
she is reading?

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Mokwele, that is not
a point of order, take your seat. Conclude, hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (FOR THE MINISTER OF WATER
AND SANITATION): [Laughing.] Ok, continued operations [Laughing.]
relies on repair of maintenance of electrical and mechanical
equipment used on site. The following tenders are in place to ensure
infrastructural maintenance. The contract reference invalidity. I
don‘t want to read it. I am not going to read it for you. There are
five tenders in place to do the repairs. [Laughter.]

The last answer to this question is just ... two minutes. Yes, the
challenges in Rooiwal were noted.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I just want to remind this House that
we are representing governance interaction to the public out there.
I find the response of the Deputy Minister absolutely shocking, that
this is the response we are getting from a Deputy Minister when she
cannot pronounce the words. She obviously has not read her script,
which was prepared before the time. I find this absolutely shocking
and a disgrace to the nation of this country that this is the
response that we get from the department.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, can you
conclude your response?

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (FOR THE MINISTER OF WATER
AND SANITATION): Chairperson, at least people out there are
listening. Yes, since the challenges in Rooiwal were noted by my
department, there has been full engagement with the city manager and
an action plan was developed. The department is monitoring this
process. Thank you.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, that was long. Thank you for
the answer, Deputy Minister. On 19 February, the same question was
posed to your department by hon Engelbrecht. The response was, yes,
there are sufficient chemicals for the Rooiwal Plant, the plant is
appropriately maintained, there is low to medium risk at the plant
and there is no sewage flow from the plant. Now I hear the opposite.
That was on 19 February. We had another question by hon Basson on 27
October 2015, where this plant was not working. It did not work in
October 2015. The response by the department in ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, sorry, let me
entertain the point of order.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, I am not sure what the objective of
the question is, but I think we are dealing with legislature here.
We really can‘t be dealing with matters of operation. Do you expect
the Minister to know how a plant operates on daily basis?

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, no. Let me make a ruling.
Hon Mthimunye, take your seat.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: I really think this question is out of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Labuschagne, may you
take your seat. Hon Julius, you are in order. You are out of order,
hon Mthimunye. May you try to conclude, hon Julius.

Mr J W W JULIUS: You have these dates, hon Deputy Minister. The
first response from your department was, it was not, and it is here
officially from the department that you are trying to represent
today. It is here. It was not working and again in February 2016, it
was working. The response that you are giving me now is that it is
not working at all and it will take a long time to work in so far.

Can you really tell me, how long was this problem? Was it 27
October? What informed you to give us an answer on 19 February that
all is working well, but today you come with this? May you please
explain the three dates? How long has this problem of Rooiwal Dam
been coming on? Can you explain the rationale behind these different
questions from this department? Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (FOR THE MINISTER OF WATER
AND SANITATION): I must say that, according to the responses that we
are getting in the department, the kind of challenges that this

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plant is facing are with regard to materials that are needed to fix
it. You need to order them. They are not in stock and it takes time.
[Interjections.] No, do you want an answer or not? [Interjections.]
I did say that one of the difficulties that the plant is having is
that the material is not in stock. This means that you can‘t just go
and buy them. You must order them and it takes time to get them. I
gave you five tenders that were put in place which would change the
scenario of a plant that does not have the necessary material.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Faber, it is hon
Gaehler first. You raised your hand and I wrote your name down. You
are on the list.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, I think it is a point of order. Direct
the Deputy Minister. If she cannot answer oral questions written
answers may follow because now you are eating on our time. We want
to rest. Please, I am asking you. As a Chair you may say, can you
give answers in writing, simple as that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: I am on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me address the first
point of order. There can‘t be a point of order on top of a point of
order. I must first make a ruling. Hon members, when you ask a

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question and I intervene you say, no don‘t do that, allow the Deputy
Minister or the Minister to respond, and when I am not doing that
you say, I must intervene. We must be consistent in what we are
doing. I understand what you are raising.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, to be quite honest, we can‘t downgrade
this House. This Deputy Minister could not answer her own
portfolio‘s questions. Now she is trying to come and answer another
portfolio‘s questions. Chairperson, with due respect it is unfair.
First, it is unfair to herself. It is like someone‘s left hand does
not have an idea of what the right hand is doing. Let me finish,
Chairperson. I believe that we have written replies on the following
questions. We cannot let the Minister come and answer things, waffle
here and don‘t know what she is talking about. We cannot do that,
and it does not work like that. We are not getting the correct
answers and we are wasting everyone‘s time. Thank you.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: For a very long time in this House, you have
allowed people to make statements and very derogatory statements. We
have been quiet. South African people are listening. As the Deputy
Minister addresses issues we understand. [Interjections.] We had
never said that some people must have little knowledge of issues. I
know you will make this noise. Marshall Tito points it correctly, ―A
traitor and a hero are born in the same house‖. And you are
practising it now.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, allow me to make
a ruling. I will recognise you. Hon members, hon members! Order
members! Can we have order? Hon members, when we started, hon
Labuschagne raised an issue and suggested a possible way of
addressing the issue. I made a ruling that there is nothing wrong
with how to address what she raised. Unfortunately, you were
outside, hon Faber. Now we are dealing with questions. When we do
follow up questions and members are not satisfied, irrespective a
Minister or a Deputy Minister is from the department, do not rise
and debate it - don‘t do that.

It is not always that when you get a response it will be the one
that will make you. If you challenge it you are subjecting it to a
debate and that is the unfortunate part. I am appealing to all of
you let us allow the process of responses. We know the processes.
There is a process of dealing with written replies, and there is the
oral one. Now you want us to violate the very same Rules and convert
questions for oral reply into written replies. That is very
unfortunate.

Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga, Mdulasetilo. Selo se re se dirang
Modulasetilo ke boikuelo. Motl Labuschagne o rile a re dumalaneng re
la Ntlo gore ga re tseye dipotso tsa tlaleletso gonne Motlatsatona
ga a itse se a se buang. Dikarabo tse a di tshereng foo, ke tse di
rulagantsweng, ka jalo re tsere tshwetso ya gore ... (Translation of
Setswana paragraph follows.)

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[Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, Chairperson. All that we are making is
an appeal. Hon Labuschagne said that we must agree as a House that
we will not be dealing with supplementary questions as the Deputy
Minister has no clue of what she is talking about. She is giving us
prepared answers, therefore we took a decision that ...]

... we must agree that we are not dealing with supplementary
questions because we are wasting our time. She is not answering
anything. Secondly, even the answers that are prepared she can‘t
make sense of what she is reading. It is a point that we have all
noticed. Now we are saying to the House and to you Chairperson,
spare our time. Even yourself ...

... o fetsa go bua, le Motlashuping o fetsa go mpolelela gore motho
yo wa Modimo ke sono, ka bobedi ba bone. Jaanong, a re ipolokeleng
nako Modulasetilo, re a kopa, Motlatsatona ga a itse gore o bua ka
eng. Fa a re oa araba ... (Translation of Setswana paragraph
follows.)

[...said it, just now Motlashuping told me that both these people
are in trouble. So, Chairperson, please let us not waste our time,
Deputy Minister has no clue of what she is talking about. When she
answers...]

... she‘s making a mockery of herself. So please ...

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... re a ikopela. Ga re batle Mme, mo kgweding ya Bomme, a
sotlakakiwe jaaka le sotlakaka Mme yo. Ke a leboga. [... please we
beg you. In this Women‘s Month we don‘t want to be seen as if we are
ill-treating this woman. Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! Hon Ximbi.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, may I suggest. The majority of this House
is willing to listen and the minority is not willing. They must not
disturb us. They must go if they feel to go. It is long time that
you gave a ruling, but they don‘t want to listen. The best thing is
to go out.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mthimunye, take your
seat. I am done with points of order. Now we come to Question 87.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: I‘ve got a follow up questions, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, but the Rules are very
clear. We can‘t have more than four people. [Interjections.] It was
hon Julius, hon Mokwele, hon Motlashuping and hon Ximbi. Okay, have
your chance.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I need to make it very clear, this is
the first follow up question. Hon Julius gave the first question.
This is the first follow up question.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it doesn‘t work like
that.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: All the others were points of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It does not work like that.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Can I continue?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, but it is not the first
one.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: No, it is - it is the first one.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): May you correct her? Can you
teach her?

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, it is my first follow up question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you ask your question?

Mr J W W JULIUS: On a point of order, Chairperson: You have just
referred to the hon Engelbrecht, ―Can you teach her.‖ May you please
withdraw that. She is an hon member. Can you teach her! That is what
you said.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you assist the hon member
to understand that she is not the first one.

Mr J W W JULIUS: No, no, you said,‖Teach her.‖

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I withdraw that.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Engelbrecht.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, we need to realise that the
Constitution is the most important part.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): There is a point of order.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Some of us really have a problem, Chair. The
manner in which some hon members are addressing themselves to you as
the Chair and also the manner in which they address themselves to
the Deputy Minister here actually amount to casting suspicions to
the Deputy Minister and to you as the Chair. May you please make a
ruling on that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I will deal with that. Hon
Engelbrecht. It is a valid point of order, hon Mthimunye.

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Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, the Constitution that we have all
fought for, that this government is based on for the past 22 years
is the most important and sacrosanct part that we need to protect.
The Constitution is very, very clear that people are entitled to
basic services like water.

The Rooiwal Water Waste Treatment Works serves the north of
Pretoria, which is my constituency, Hammanskraal. That water waste
treatment works has been totally ignored by the ANC government and
Water and Sanitation. We have put questions through to the
Ministers. I have put questions through and the department has
blatantly not given us the correct information.

The water waste treatment works has not been working for the past
six months. There are no staffs on site. Yes, the Deputy Minister is
correct when she says they cannot accommodate the sludge because
there is nobody there to accommodate it. There is no staff on site,
there are no chemicals, the sludge is overloading the once mighty
Apies River, our farmer‘s animals are dying and my people in
Hammanskraal are sick and ill from the E. coli levels which are far
above what they should be. This department comes and give me answers
after written questions to say that, yes, everything is working.

So, what I would like to request from this Deputy Minister is to say
that they have not been telling us and the public the truth. This
ANC government and the Water and Sanitation Department has totally

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ignored the needs of the people of the north of Pretoria, ignored
the fact that the water waste treatment work is not functioning at
all - not at all. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Engelbrecht, your time
has expired. It is two minutes for a follow up question.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Can I conclude in saying that the department has
been lying to the public of this country because they don‘t care and
they have totally ignored the Rooiwal Water Waste Treatment Works.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Engelbrecht, it was
supposed to be a supplementary question and you are making a
statement. You are making it difficult for me sitting here
presiding.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, my follow up question on that is, in
terms of the procurement processes, I heard the Minister referring
to the tenders that are aiming at fixing the problem there. How far
is the department in terms of finalising the procurement to ensure
that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Deputy Minister, let me
deal with the point of order.

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Mr E MAKUE: My point of order is that, on 19 June 2015, the DA
released a statement saying that it will be opening a case against
the manager of the City of Tshwane and this makes this matter...
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members! Let‘s allow
him to finish, I will make a ruling.

Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, this House has a Rule. If a matter is sub
judice, we cannot discuss it unless the DA has made an empty
promise.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, let me make a ruling. Hon
members, I can‘t sustain the point of order because you are basing
it on what you read about a statement. So, there is no case. If
there was a case it would be a different matter. Hon Deputy
Minister, may you respond to hon Dlamini‘s question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (FOR THE MINISTER OF WATER
AND SANITATION): Hon Dlamini, we are not able to tell you definitely
when would this process be completed, but we are saying there is a
commitment to ensure that this plant go back to its origin. I
understand some people are so excited about these things. It is not
going to take us anywhere. It doesn‘t matter what we say and what we
do they have made up their minds, but we will continue providing
services to our people. Thank you.

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Bulk Infrastructure Grant Programme

87. Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Water
and Sanitation:

With reference to her Budget Speech in May 2016, an amount of
R795 million was allocated to KwaZulu-Natal for the regional
Bulk Infrastructure Grant Programme (details furnished), (a)
when did the (i) Nongoma Bulk Water and (ii) Jozini-Ingwavuma
Bulk Water supply project commence, (b) how much has been spent
on each to date and (c) why is there a delay in the completion
of the Usuthu Bulk water supply in Nongoma?

CO271E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (for the Minister of Water
and Sanitation): Hon Chairperson, the construction of the Nongoma
Bulk Water Supply Project commenced on 23 November 2010. The
construction of the Jozini-Ingwavuma Bulk Water Supply Project
commenced on 25 October 2010. A total of R359 844 073 of the
regional bulk infrastructure grant, the RBIG, funds have been spent
on the Nongoma Bulk Water Project to date, and a total R9 342 751
RBIG funds have been spent on the Jozini-Ingwavuma Bulk Water Supply
Project to date.

The delay in the completion of the Usuthu project is due to the
following factors: the project has a huge footprint, and additional
funding is required to complete the entire project. As the RBIG

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funding countrywide is limited, annual allocations to projects are
not sufficient to roll out all projects at the same time – within
normal periods of time.

The Usuthu project is also affected by a shortage of funds. The
magnitude of contracts which can be awarded on a yearly basis is
therefore limited by funding shortages, which cause a project to be
implemented over a longer period of time than would normally be the
case. The completion of the scheme is estimated for the 2020-21
financial year. However, the department is making efforts to get
additional funding so that the scheme can be completed before 2020.
Thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Thanks, Chair, and hon Deputy Minister. I just have
one request, Deputy Minister: Could the department please monitor
closely the Usuthu and Nongoma bulk water projects? I am not going
to question anything, Chair, because these matters are too
complicated. I do request that they be closely monitored. Something
has happened there.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, thank you. We now come
to Question ... Oh, hon Chetty?

Mr M CHETTY: I have a follow-up question, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are recognised.

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Mr M CHETTY If the hon Khawula doesn‘t want to, I‘ll take it up,
Chair. The regional bulk infrastructure grant was transferred
directly to water authorities in Zululand ... [Interjections.]
[Inaudible.] Yes, I come from Zululand.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Chetty ...

Mr M CHETTY: Chair, can you give me protection here because ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘m protecting you. Ignore
the hon Dlamini, please.

Mr M CHETTY: I can‘t ignore, Chair, because, you know, change is
coming soon. People are very nervous.

However, there were no moves to incorporate areas in KwaZulu-Natal
where no projects were implemented despite them being dry and
without water. Why is this and why are some areas covered and others
neglected? Thank you. [Interjections.] Not mayor; premier in
waiting.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (for the Minister of Water
and Sanitation): Thank you very much. Hon member, we will take your
concerns to the hon Minister, and I‘m sure she will respond to your
concerns. [Interjections.]

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We now come to Stock‘s
question, Question 67. Hon Deputy Minister, it is Question 67 – the
one of hon Stock. [Interjections.] The hon Faber is correct – the
hon Stock is not here. Hon Hattingh?

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I just want to get clarity now on the
process. The hon Deputy Minister has said she will take the question
to the Minister and the Minister will respond. Does that mean we
will have another session where the Minister will come here and
respond to that question, because the response may invoke more
follow-up questions? How does this work? How will the Minister
respond to this House?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it‘s ... Are you done?

Mr C HATTINGH: That‘s my question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I don‘t want to disturb you.
Are you done?

Mr C HATTINGH: Yes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. When you‘re saying
you‘ll take it to the Minister so that we can get it in writing ...

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Mr C HATTINGH: Listen, you must be fair please. The Deputy Minister
said – I sat here; I watched her lips – that she would take the
question to the Minister and the Minister would respond. There was
nothing in writing. You are putting those words in her mouth; not
she.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, let me take it further.
What does it mean? If a Minister is taking it to the department so
that we can get it, the response will come to the Chairperson of the
NCOP in writing and hon members will get that response. And if that
necessitates us to make a follow-up to formulate another question,
then that‘s something else. Let‘s avoid a dialogue.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, no; that is your interpretation. This
session here is for interaction with the Minister and to have
follow-up questions. You are writing new Rules ... as you sit there.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you are out of order. You
are out of order.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, I think you are out of order.

Mr S J MOHAI: Clearly, we have had a long day. Some members really
cannot cope with the content of valuable issues that are raised here
that we need to share with our communities. It is out of order for
an hon member to debate with you when you provide guidance –

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additional to issues raised by the Minister. Those issues should be
provided by the members through the appropriate channels.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. I‘m sustaining
your point of order. We now come to Question 94, posed by the hon
Engelbrecht. [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... Stock was not in the
House. He‘s in the House now? Oh, sorry. No, when I was dealing with
this question, it was brought to my attention that the hon Stock was
not in the House. [Interjections.] Ya, so, we have passed that
question. I don‘t want to seen to be doing a favour.

Let‘s go to Question 94.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (for the Minister of Water
and Sanitation): Thank you, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We are dealing with your
question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS (for the Minister of Water
and Sanitation): Yes.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: On a point of order, Mr Chair: Mr Chair, I have a
problem that we are not doing Question 67, because the member is in
the House. We have to do Question 67. [Interjections.]

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Oh, no. Hon Engelbrecht ...
Order, members! Hon Engelbrecht, if a member who has asked a
question is not in the House when the hon Deputy Minister was
supposed to respond to the question ... It was brought to my
attention that the hon Stock was not in the House. Then I said: We
are moving to Question 94. Then, whilst we were supposed to deal
with Question 94, the hon Hattingh raised a point of order. When we
were dealing with the point of order the hon Stock got in. So, we
are not going to give preference to the hon Stock, because he was
not in the House when we were dealing with his question. So that is
why we are now dealing with your question. Hon Deputy Minister?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No, no, no. Let us get the Rules straight here.
When a member who raised a question is not in the House, the
question still has to be answered for the rest of the members
because it is on the Question Paper. The question was not withdrawn.
The hon member who was not in the House just forfeits his option to
ask a follow-up question. The question must be dealt with, whether
the member is here or not. That‘s the Rule. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. No. [Interjections.] Hon
Labuschagne, we are not going to be engaging and then assisting you
with the Rules. The Rules are very clear. If a member who has asked
a question is not in the House and has not made an arrangement with
another member to stand in for him or her, that question lapses.

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Let me read for you what the Rule says. ―If a member does not rise
when a question for oral reply standing in that member‘s name comes
up for reply, the question lapses, unless the person who is to reply
to the question elects to reply to the question or tables the
reply.‖ That is Rule 246(5).

Hon Deputy Minister, we are dealing with Question 94.

Cost overrun in Lesotho Highlands Water Project

94.

Ms B A Engelbrecht (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Water
and Sanitation:

Whether there will be any cost overruns as a result of the
delay in the Lesotho Highlands Water Project; if not, what is
the position in this regard; if so, what is the cost of the
overrun?

CO278E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENT FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Chairperson, the latest estimate of cost at completion inclusive of
escalation and contingency amounts to R23.2 billion on the Lesotho
Highland Water Project dated May 2016. This means that there is an
increase of R361 million from May 2015 to May 2016. There are
updates that have been included that clarify where contracts have
been awarded during the year; the actual contract prices have been
included. The updated escalation indices have been applied and the

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updated foreign currency assumptions and indices have been applied
and certain revised implementation methodologies that strive to
reduce the implementation period have been incorporated in the
updated cost estimates.

The refinements introduced to the Lesotho Highlands Water Project
Procurement Policy has resulted in an adjusted implementation
programme but project authorities are investigating avenues to
recover some of the time lost as well as the additional costs. The
source of the reported R26 billion of the Lesotho Highlands Water
Project phase two cost is not known to the project authorities. The
implementation authority, that is, the Lesotho Highlands Development
Authority, LHDA, is currently in the process of tendering the design
and supervision contracts for the Polihi Dam and the Polihali-Katse
Tunnel. The tender process for the main construction contracts will
only commence after the award of the design and supervision
contracts.

The Lesotho Association of Engineers, LAE, is currently in the
process of preparing tender documents for the advance infrastructure
works and its design and supervision contracts. I thank you.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, there were allegations, Deputy
Minister, that the procurement process in this project was stopped
to give LTE an opportunity to be included in the list of
applications for this tender. However, LTE is already receiving

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billions from this department. So, would you please inform this
House who ordered the halt of the procurement process in this
project and why was it halted.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENT FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Hon member, thank you very much for that question. Would you agree
with me, because I do not have the details with me right now, to
respond to your question, can I take your question as well?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Eh! What‘s the use? [Laughter.] What‘s the use!
House Chairperson, I can ask anything now but what‘s the use. Let me
try ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Let
me take a point of order, please take your seat. Yes, hon Mohai.
Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chair, we listened very carefully to the response
provided by the Deputy Minister, it was very substantive and the hon
member, by her own admission said an allegation. The Deputy Minister
requested that she will furnish this House with better details on
the allegations raised. This is absolutely in order and it is in
good standing in this House. [Interjections.]

UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: What is your point of Order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Order members!

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Mr S J MOHAI: The order is that we are on the right track. If the
hon member has nothing to say, he must take a seat because the
Minister has provided a response and said that she will give
additional information. Now the hon member casts aspersions by
saying, what is a point? On what issue really because he has said
nothing.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I
sustain the point of order. Hon Julius, if you still have a followup question.

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I stand to be corrected, I heard a
response that the extra costs incurred will be R3.2 billion because
of the time that it took. I stand to be corrected. My question is,
alright then let me pose a question like this because I see the
Minister saying no. How much money, what is the cost overrun and how
will we ensure or what did the department do to ensure that this
will not happen again because this is taxpayers money that we are
wasting. How many schools can be built with R3.2 billion? House
Chairperson, what will the department do to avoid these incurred
costs because of the slow delivery of this project? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Chairperson, hon member, thank you for asking that question. I said
that the additional cost is R361 million. They are saying that in
terms of authorities there is already an investigation to find out

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how can we recuperate the time lost including some of the costs
which are completely uncalled for. The genuine costs in terms of
pricing and all that is built in but if there are costs that have
been accumulated by other means; this is what the investigation is
all about.

Mr C HATTINGH: I hope that the hon Deputy Minister makes careful
note of this because of your ruling in terms of the new Rules which
I haven‘t got. Hon Deputy Chair, I would like to know, this cost
overrun thing, does the Deputy Minister in her message that she is
bringing to us here, has a different message than what was presented
to the portfolio committee that the total cost of the project will
now go to R26 million and not the originally envisaged R20 million,
a cost overrun of 30%. That is my first question. Secondly, I would
like to know the reasons why Dr Zodwa Dlamini was dismissed from the
project because the dismissal disrupted the project. I would further
like to know whether the dismissal of Dr Dlamini has got anything to
do with the bringing in of LTE. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Chairperson, hon member, I have said that according to the records
that we get from the department, the costs are at R23.2 billion. You
understand? [Interjections.] NO, no, no no! Remember I said that
this plant will cost us R23.2 billion as opposed to R26 billion
which was reported to the committee. According to this document,
they are saying that they do not know the source of that amount, the

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R26 billion that was reported. They stand by the R23.2 billion. Do
you understand? The issue that you are raising of Zodwa Dlamini is
also part of the question which has to go back directly to the
Minister because I do not have information about that. So, actually
you are asking the same question and I say that we can package it
together and you will get your answer at the appropriate time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
members, we don‘t have new Rules; we still have the old Rules. Eh!
There‘s a point of order? Okay, hon Engelbrecht.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, thank you very much. I am so confused
with all these billions and millions because it does not seem to be
a consistent terminology.

Can we just ask the Minister to just

repeat the amounts that she mentioned because they kept on changing
everything every time she answered the questions?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
hon Engelbrecht, that is not a point of order.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Ah, Mr Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
That is not a point of order.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Or point of clarity then.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, you are seeking clarity and that is not a point of order.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Okay. Can we change it to a point of clarity
please, can we please get clarity?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): We
now go to Question 72 from hon Samka. [Interjections.] No, hon
Engelbrecht I am done with you. Hon Deputy Minister, you can
continue.

State of water scarcity

72.

Ms P C Samka (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Water
and Sanitation:

(a) What is the state of water scarcity in South Africa and (b)
which provinces are affected in the immediate to medium term?
CO256E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Chairperson, drought is a natural phenomenon and the 2015 to 2016
drought is not the first serious one that we are experiencing. Our
dams are built to harvest rainfall runoff during wet season for
later use during dry periods. Our economic nodes and national growth
points are currently adequately serving 238 dams on a national

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 296 of 318

basis. Currently we monitor and measure, on a weekly basis, 211 dams
and with a total capacity of 36,12 billion cubic metres.

In order to deal with drought occurrences such as the one that we
are experiencing, our water resources managers have developed very
robust operating rules for all the major dams which are used to
determine the need and the extent for the application of water
restrictions. A downward trend in our stored capacity started after
the very heavy high levels experienced in 2010 to 2011 while storage
capacity is currently at 53,3% recorded on 15 August 2016 and
showing gradual downward trend. This is still above the previous
extreme lows recorded in 1983 at 34% and 1995 at 34,4%. This is
largely due to improved management of our dams and timeous
implementation of restrictions. Currently, 24 dams are at 100%, 60
dams are below 40% and 10 dams are below 10%.

In those areas where we do not have sufficient water available we
provided water from boreholes. Currently, we rely on 7 487 boreholes
of which 822 have been drilled during the current drought and 681
have been refurbished and re-equipped. Water supplies have also been
supplemented through the carrying of water with a fleet of 650
motorised water tankers and 17 storage tanks of 80km capacity.

Droughts have been declared in eight provinces. Gauteng is the only
province where drought has not been declared. The declaration in the
eight provinces includes three metropolitan municipalities, 40

23 AUGUST 2016

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district municipalities and 149 local municipalities. Restrictions
have been applied for water supply from 37 dams across the provinces
and seven ground water systems in Northern Cape. I thank you.

Nks P C SAMKA: Sihlalo, mandiyibulele impendulo kaSekela Mphathiswa,
iphondo leMpuma Koloni lelinye lamaphondo ebelithe lachaphazeleka
kunyaka wama-2015 kule nto idibene nokunqongophala kwamanzi,
ingakumbi kuMasipala weSithili sase-Amathole. Ingaba isebe linalo
kusini na icebo elilenzileyo ukuqinisekisa ukuba likhona idama
elakhiwayo, kulaa mmandla waseMpuma Koloni, ukuzama ukuhlangabezana
nemingeni ejongene nokunqongophala kwamanzi? Enkosi.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Ngalo mbuzo wakho ofuna ukuqonda ukuba ingaba sinalo kusini na idama
esilakhayo phaya kuMasipala wesiThili sase-Amathole elinokunceda
abantu ingakumbi kwiimeko ezinje ngezi. Ndivumele ndiwubuyisele
kwisebe kuba kaloku uyayazi into yokuba mna andinalo ulwazi
oluphangaleleyo ngalo mba ukuze ukwazi ukufumana impendulo ezeleyo.
Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms P C SAMKA: Hon Chairperson let me thank hon Deputy Minister‘s
answer, Eastern Cape Province is one of the provinces that were
affected by water scarcity in 2015, especially in Amathole District
Municipality. Is there any plan that has been done by the department
to ensure that there is a dam that has been built in the Eastern

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 298 of 318

Cape, to try and deal with the challenges faced because of water
scarcity? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
With your question where you want to know whether we are building
any dam that will help people especially in situations like these in
Amathole District Municipality.

Allow me to take the question back

to the department because you know that my knowledge is not broad on
this issue, then you will be answered in full. Thank you.]

Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, the fact that water is life is a disturbing
matter. Not that water is life but the fact that we are running
short of it. I appreciate the feedback that we get about the
boreholes but would want to check with the Deputy Minister whether
there are plans in the department to look at alternative ways of
harvesting water. I‘m asking because I do not think that we can
continue to depend upon the heavens to provide us, immediately but
also in the longer term because of what we have learnt in Cop 17
about climate change. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Hon member, one of the things that we must understand is the issue
of alternative technology in terms of water harvesting. So, I think
it is critical that the department goes in that direction. In fact,
I think that there are means already because we are integrating our
discussion in the cluster. They are reporting about the kinds of

23 AUGUST 2016

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means that they are doing in terms of providing alternative
technology to ensure water supply. What we are doing now is not
sufficient. Therefore, we definitely need more than boreholes and we
can do more than that. Thank you.

Mr L B GAEHLER: It is quite true that drought has affected not only
Amathole District Municipality but also O R Tambo District
Municipality. Given the water shortage, what I would like to know,
Deputy Minister, is how far your department is with the plans of
building the Umzimvubu Dam. When will it complete that dam because
it would assist in the water scarcity of that area? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
Remember that the construction of Umzimvubu Dam has been in a
pipeline for a long time and I think the issue was resources. It is
being prioritised to ensure that Umzimvubu Dam gets off the ground
because it creates a blockage in the system if we are not putting
funding to get it going. It has been in the pipeline for a very long
time and it is about time that it gets implemented. There has been
an agreed position that funding will be sourced for Umzimvubu Dam.

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, I am very glad that you are not done
with me. South Africa is by nature a water-constrained country and
we are the 30th driest country in the world and yet 50% of our water
is wasted away because of lack of maintenance of our infrastructure.
Therefore, it is critical for all spheres of government to work

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 300 of 318

together in terms of conserving water. My question to the Deputy
Minister is, Why do we not have Water and Sanitation Department
provincially and only a Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs? Why do most municipalities not have the
Department of Water and Sanitation? When will we receive the longawaited water plan which has been promised to this country? Thank
you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS FOR WATER AND SANITATION:
It is a mouthful and I think it is a matter which cannot be agreed
to even by water affairs. I think it is a discussion that we need to
have in the government because the issue of having water departments
in provinces, to me, would be a disaster. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, can you take
your seats.

Mr C HATTINGH: Will you recognise me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I will.

Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): After I have made my point.
You are the first one to raise your point. When hon Deputy Minister
responded to hon Samka‘s question, the first follow-up question was

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 301 of 318

from hon Samka, the second one was from hon Makue, the third was
from hon Gaehler and the fourth one was from hon Engelbrecht. So, we
are supposed to have four follow-up questions. Why hon ...

Mr C HATTINGH: My surname is Hatting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I know that you are hon
Hattingh.

Mr C HATTINGH: We have been introduced before.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I know that you are hon
Hattingh. I wanted to ascertain because I have already ...

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, just a point of clarity. In the last question
the Deputy Minister responded and in her sentence ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Hattingh, no. Will
you please take your seat?

Mr C HATTINGH: Can I complete my sentence?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, will you please take your
seat? You are abusing the situation. Will you please take your seat?

Mr C HATTINGH: I think ...

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 302 of 318

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, will you please
take your seat?

Mr C HATTINGH: This is ridiculous, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat? Hon
Mokgotsi was the first one to raise a question. You were not even
the fifth one, she was the fifth one. But you will not have that.
Hon members, let me take this opportunity to thank the Deputy
Minister for availing herself for the department and the other
department. Beyond that, in terms of what is in front of us, the
Chief Whip is out but it was brought to my attention that there is
no arrangement that was made, because if you check through the
questions, it is only one that is missing. It is the Department of
Social Development. No, it is the only one in terms of today‘s
agenda. So, we do not have the Minister, the Deputy Minister and we
do not have an arrangement of a Minister that will stand for her.
So, it is an issue that I am not going to ... [Interjections.]

Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, before the Deputy Minister leaves, can
you call her back? She can answer any question, according to you.
She can answer these ones also.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, can you take your
seat? There is no point of order. Hon members, when a Minister or a
Deputy Minister is responding to questions on behalf of another

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 303 of 318

Minister, it is not something that a Presiding Officer can just
decide and instructs a person to stand. It is a responsibility of
the relevant department. That concludes the business of the day.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The Council adjourned at 19:28.
__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TUESDAY, 2 AUGUST 2016
TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Finance

(a)

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the United Arab Emirates for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of
Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of Section 231(2) of the
Constitution, 1996.

23 AUGUST 2016
(b)

PAGE: 304 of 318

Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of
South Africa and the Government of the United Arab Emirates for the Avoidance of
Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income.

(c)

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
of the Republic of Singapore for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of
Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of Section 231(2) of the
Constitution, 1996.

(d)

Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of
South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Singapore for the Avoidance of
Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income.

(e)

Strategic Plan of the South African Revenue Service (Sars) for 2016-17 – 2020-21.

National Council of Provinces

1.

The Chairperson

(a)

The President of the Republic submitted the following letter dated 29 July 2016 to the
Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, informing members of the Council of
the employment of the South African National Defence Force for service in cooperation
with members of the SA Police Service (SAPS) during the local government elections:

Dear Chairperson,

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 305 of 318

EMPLOYMENT OF MEMBERS OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL
DEFENCE FORCE IN CO-OPERATION WITH THE SOUTH AFRICAN
POLICE SERVICE

This serves to inform the National Council of Provinces that I have authorised the
employment of Two Thousand Three Hundred and Sixty Seven (2367) members of
the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) for service in co-operation with
members of the South African Police Service (SAPS) during the local government
elections.

Members of the SANDF will be employed in all nine provinces to assist the SAPS to
maintain law and order in the run up to and during the local government elections.

This employment is authorised in accordance with the provisions of section 201(2)(a)
of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996.

The employment is for the period 29 July to 10 August 2016.

The total expenditure expected to be incurred for the employment is R38 204 594.00.

I will communicate this report to members of the National Assembly and the Joint
Standing Committee on Defence and wish to request that you bring the contents
hereof to the attention of the National Council of Provinces.

Yours Sincerely

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 306 of 318

Signed

Mr Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Zuma
President of the Republic of South Africa

Referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence for consideration and report.
THURSDAY, 4 AUGUST 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Referral to Committees of papers tabled

(1)

The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance for
consideration and report:

(a)

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the
Government of the United Arab Emirates for the Avoidance of Double Taxation
and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in
terms of Section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)

Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government of the
Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United Arab Emirates for

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 307 of 318
the Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect
to Taxes on Income.

(c)

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the
Government of the Republic of Singapore for the Avoidance of Double Taxation
and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in
terms of Section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

(d)

Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government of the
Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Singapore for
the Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect
to Taxes on Income.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services

(a)

Proclamation No R. 44, published in Government Gazette No 39488, dated 10 December
2015: Amendment of Proclamation No R. 54 of 2014, made under section 2(4) of the
Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No 74 of 1996).

(b)

Proclamation No R. 31, published in Government Gazette No 40004, dated 20 May 2016:
Referral of matters to existing special investigating unit and special tribunal, in terms of

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 308 of 318

section 2(1) of the Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No
74 of 1996).

(c)

Proclamation No R. 32, published in Government Gazette No 40004, dated 20 May 2016:
Referral of matters to existing special investigating unit and special tribunal, in terms of
section 2(1) of the Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No 74
of 1996).

(d)

Proclamation No R. 33, published in Government Gazette No 40010, dated 24 May 2016:
Proclamation by the President of the Republic of South Africa of the Commencement of
the Criminal Matters Amendment Act, made under section 10 of the Criminal Matters
Amendment Act, 2015 (Act No 18 of 2015).

2.

The Minister of Finance

(a)

Report and Financial Statements of the Cooperative Banks for 2015-16.
FRIDAY, 5 AUGUST 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.

Assent by President in respect of Bills

23 AUGUST 2016
(1)

PAGE: 309 of 318

Appropriation Bill [B 3 – 2016] – Act No 6 of 2016 (assented to and signed by President
on 29 July 2016).
THURSDAY, 11 AUGUST 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Referral to Committees of papers tabled

(1)

The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Social Services for
consideration and report:

(a)

Draft regulations on levies and fees pertaining to the Community Schemes Ombud
Service, made in terms of section 29(1)(b), (c), (d) and (e) of the Community
Schemes Ombud Service Act, 2011 (Act No 9 of 2011) and submitted to Parliament
for approval in terms of section 29(3) of the Act.

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Environmental Affairs

23 AUGUST 2016
(a)

PAGE: 310 of 318

Draft regulations for the registration of professional hunters, hunting outfitters and trainers
in terms of the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004

Referred to the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources for consideration and
report.
MONDAY, 15 AUGUST 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Remuneration review of Executive and Legislative Sector

(1)

A letter dated 14 July 2016, has been received from the Independent Commission for the
Remuneration of Public Office Bearers informing Parliament that it will embark on the
review of the remuneration of public office bearers of the Executive and Legislative
Sector.

Referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice for consideration.

2.

Referral to Committees of papers tabled

23 AUGUST 2016

(1)

PAGE: 311 of 318

The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations for consideration and report:

(a)

Economic Partnership Agreement between the SADC EPA States, of the one part,
and the European Union and its member states, of the other part, tabled in terms of
section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)

Explanatory Memorandum to the Economic Partnership Agreement between the
SADC EPA States, of the one part, and the European Union and its member states, of
the other part.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Trade and Industry

(a)

Government Notice No 799, published in Government Gazette, No 40121, dated 05 July
2016: Notice of Introduction of Bill into Parliament: Copyright Amendment Bill, 2016 in
terms of the Copyright Act, 1978 (Act No 98 of 1978).

(b)

Government Notice No 800, published in Government Gazette, No 40121, dated 05 July
2016: Notice of Introduction of Bill into Parliament: Performers’ Protection Bill, 2016 in
terms of the Performers Protection Act, 1967 (Act No 11 of 1967).

23 AUGUST 2016

(c)

PAGE: 312 of 318

Government Notice No 813, published in Government Gazette, No 40125, dated 08 July
2016: National Measurement Units, made in terms of the Measurement Units and
Measurement Standards Act, 2006 (Act No 18 of 2006).

(d)

Government Notice No 814, published in Government Gazette, No 40125, dated 08 July
2016: National Measurement Standards: Schedule, made in terms of the Measurement
Units and Measurement Standards Act, 2006 (Act No 18 of 2006).

TUESDAY, 16 AUGUST 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Membership of Committees
(1)

The following members have been appointed to the standing committee in terms of section
12(2) of Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2004 (Act 4 of 2004):

Parkies, J P
Mthimunye, S G
Zwane, L L
Van Lingen, E C

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 313 of 318

Khawula, M

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)

1st Quarterly Report on Implementation of Parliament’s Annual Performance Plan, tabled
in terms of section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial
Legislatures Act (Act No 10 of 2009).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1.

Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Business Development on the
International Convention on Liability and Compensation for Damage in Connection with
Hazardous and Noxious Substances by Sea, 2010 (HNS Convention), dated 16 August 2016:

The Select Committee on Economic and Business Development, having considered the request for
approval by Parliament of the HNS Convention, and the Explanatory Memorandum thereto,
referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996,
approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.

23 AUGUST 2016

2.

PAGE: 314 of 318

Report of the Select Committee on Social Services on the draft regulations on levies and fees
pertaining to the Community Schemes Ombud Service, dated 16 August 2016.

The Select Committee on Social Services (the Committee), having considered the draft regulations
on levies and fees pertaining to the Community Schemes Ombud Service, made in terms of
section 29(1)(b), (c), (d) and (e) of the Community Schemes Ombud Service Act, 2011 (Act No 9
of 2011) (see ATC 11 August 2016) and submitted to Parliament for approval in terms of section
29(3) of the Act, referred to it, recommends that the House approves the draft regulations.

Report to be considered.

3.

Report of the Select Committee on Social Services on the Immigration Amendment Bill [B5
– 2016] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 16 August 2016:

The Select Committee on Social Services, having considered the subject of the Immigration
Amendment Bill [B5 – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has
agreed to the Bill.

Report to be considered.

WEDNESDAY, 17 AUGUST 2016

TABLINGS

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 315 of 318

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Finance

(a)

Annual Performance Plan of the South African Revenue Services for 2016-2017.

(b)

Erratum to the Strategic Plan of the South African Revenue Services for 2016/17 2020/21.

THURSDAY, 18 AUGUST 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Membership of Committees

(a)

The following committee membership changes have been made:

Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources
Discharged:

Rayi, Mr IM

Appointed:

Ncitha, Ms Z

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 316 of 318

Select Committee on Communication and Public Enterprises
Discharged:

Rayi, Mr IM

Appointed:

Ncitha, Ms Z

Select Committee on Economic and Business Development
Discharged:

Ncitha, Ms Z

Appointed:

Rayi, Mr IM

Select Committee on Trade and International Relations
Discharged:

Ncitha, Ms Z

Appointed:

Rayi, Mr IM

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.

The Minister of Tourism

(a)

Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Republic of India on Cooperation in the Field of Tourism,
tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)

Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding between the
Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of India
on Cooperation in the Field of Tourism.

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 317 of 318

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1.

Report of the Select Committee on Trade and International Relations on the Economic
Partnership Agreement between the SADC EPA States, of the one part, and the European
Union and its member states, of the other part, dated 17 August 2016:

The Select Committee on Trade and International Relations, having considered the request for
approval by Parliament of the Economic Partnership Agreement between the SADC EPA States,
of the one part, and the European Union and its member states, of the other part, recommends
that the Council, in terms of section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

Report to be considered.

MONDAY, 22 AUGUST 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.

Calling of Joint Sitting

23 AUGUST 2016

PAGE: 318 of 318

CALLING OF JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT

The Speaker of the National Assembly, Ms B Mbete, and the Chairperson of the National
Council of Provinces, Ms T R Modise, in terms of Joint Rule 7(2), have called a joint sitting of
the Houses of Parliament for Thursday, 25 August 2016 at 14:00 to conduct a debate in
celebration of National Women’s Day under the theme Women united in moving South Africa
forward.

B MBETE, MP

T R MODISE, MP

SPEAKER OF THE

CHAIRPERSON OF THE

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF
PROVINCES


 


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