Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 11 May 2017

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

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THURSDAY, 11 MAY 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The council met at 14:00

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) took the Chair and requested
members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr B G NTHEBE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council—

(1) debates the lack of protection of our people from insurers
who are making billions of rands through policy lapses;

(2) notes that the insurance companies have been allowed to get
away with daylight robbery and economic exploitation of our

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people through the non inclusion of cash surrender value for
lapsed policies leading to many of our people paying their
hard earned cash for policies and in some instances for as
long as over 20 years only to be told that the policy lapsed
because of missing one month‘s premium;

(3) acknowledges that it has been highly essential that the
insurance industry be made to include cash surrender value
clauses in the policies;

(4) task the select Committee on Economic and Business
Development to investigate this matter for a comprehensive
report to be reported back to the Council.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice
that on the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf
of the DA:

That the Council debates the deteriorating state of health
infrastructure in most of our provinces.

Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

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That the Council notes that people of Galeshewe in the Northern
Cape province Frances Baard District are now going to have access
to their clinics and healthcare centres that were only opening
from 8 o‘clock to 5 o‘clock because of the intervention of the
EFF, the Minister of health has now assisted and intervened in
making sure that the hospitals and the clinics in that area are
opening 24 hours. EFF is ready to govern.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council—

(1) urgently debates the proliferation of unlawful deductions by
credit providers and employers;

(2) notes that a number of people, particularly the poor and the
vulnerable, are continuously exploited by unscrupulous and
cunning credit providers and employers who show utter
disregard of the law and the constitutional rights of our
people. It has become not only apparent but highly necessary
that Parliament, as the vanguard of the people, seek urgent

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intervention from government and the judiciary to put an end
to this unlawful and shameless practice;

(3) task the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development to investigate this matter for a comprehensive
report to the Council.

Mr F ESSACK: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the DA

That this Council—

(1) notes that numerous government interventions in
municipalities such as the Thaba Chweu and the Emalahleni
municipalities have failed in Mpumalanga and that the
Auditor-General continues to give these municipalities
disclaimers in audit opinions;

(2) debates the failures of local government resulting in
further alienating the poor with reference to section (2)152
of the Constitution;

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(3) calls upon the Committee on Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs to urgently investigate Thaba Chweu and
Emalahleni municipalities with a view to invoke section 139
of the Constitution with the intention of placing these
municipalities under administration.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the
IFP:

That the Council—

(1) debates the escalating housing problem in the country noting
the recent upscale of service delivery protests;

(2) notes that this is further intensified by the inadequate
programme of allocating houses to rightful beneficiaries;

(3) also notes that some people jump the queue to the detriment
of those who have been waiting for decades on end in the
waiting lists;

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(4) finally notes that the Department of Human Settlements must
be held accountable for all these extra ordinary
shenanigans.

Ms L L ZWANE: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council—

(1) debates the challenges facing farm school learners
throughout the Western Cape province especially in areas
such as Wolseley, Stellenbosch, Wellington and Grabouw;

(2) notes that many farm learners are forced to walk long
distances to schools under dangerous conditions where they
encounter many dangers ranging from being raped, robbed or
assaulted and many of their schools are under resourced and
are poorly managed.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

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That the Council debates the late payment of state subsidies to
schools in certain provinces.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council—

(1) debates the very disturbing tendencies in municipalities
where the DA won in 2016 where political parties have
created destabilising situations to prevent the DA from
governing effectively;

(2) notes that in Hammanskraal Kekana gardens, the ANC
Councillor with a destabilising group of people has
prevented ... House Chair, can I be protected please?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are protected, hon
Engelbrecht. Hon members, let us not drown the hon member.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: ... in Hammanskraal Kekana Gardens, the ANC
Councillor with a destabilising group of people has prevented
Magalies Water works from delivering essential water services to the

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community that depends, twice weekly, on water deliveries to jojo
tanks for their survival;

(3) also notes that to get this water, the impoverished people
of the Kekana Gardens are now forced to pay drivers to bring
them water;

(4) finally notes that the DA will continue to drive change in
spite of any destabilising structures.

ZOLANI TETE: SA’S LONE MAJOR BOXING WORLD CHAMPION

(Draft Resolution)

Mr L B GAEHLER: I move without notice on behalf of the UDM:

That the Council—

(1) notes that Zolani Last Born Tete is currently the country‘s
lone major boxing world champion after a unanimous decision
against Filipino boxer, Arthur Villanueva in England on
22 April 2017;

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(2) further notes that he became the first ever boxer in the
Eastern Cape to win two different major titles in two
divisions, as he also reigned as the International Boxing
Federation, IBF, junior bantamweight champion on the same
day;

(3) congratulates Zolani Tete and his sparring partner and
brother Makazole, his chief trainer Loyiso Mtya and his
manager Mla Tengimfene; and

(4) wishes Last Born all the best in his future boxing
endeavours.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

VIOLENCE AGAINST CHILDREN IN WESTERN CAPE

(Draft Resolution)

Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you Chair. I hereby move without notice on
behalf on the ANC:

That the Council—

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(1) debates violence against children in the Western Cape; and

(2) notes that Child Welfare says the Western Cape faces
alarming cases of child rape, violence and death, as many
children continue to live with the sad reality of being
raped or killed in their own communities and often by people
that they know.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

RENOWNED PHILANTHROPIST TSHEPO MACHAEA DONATES 130 NEW CHAIRS TO
GATEWAY CLINIC IN MTHATHA

(Draft Resolution)

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Thank you very much hon Chairperson. I move without
notice on behalf of the DA:

That the Council—

(1) notes that on 5 May 2017, a renowned philanthropist Tshepo
Machaea and his Ibandla Lasemthini Evangelical Movement in

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the Eastern Cape province, donated 130 new chairs to Gateway
Clinic in Mthatha;

(2) further notes that the clinic sees around 400 to 600
patients every day who had to stand for hours or sit on a
concrete floor while waiting for medical help as the clinic
did not have chairs for patients;

(3) also notes that this generosity shows that there are people
in the Eastern Cape who still care about the poor and less
fortunate in the province;

(4) congratulates Mr Tshepo Machaea and the Ibandla Lasemthini
Evangelical Movement for their noble sacrifice and
generosity; and

(5) wishes them success in reaching out to other areas or places
that may have a similar need and wishes them success in
their endeavours.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

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TWENTY THREE YEARS SINCE INAUGURATION OF LATE PRESIDENT NELSON
ROLIHLAHLA MANDELA

(Draft Resolution)

Ms P C SAMKA: ... [Inaudible.] ... ANC, I hereby move without
notice:

That the Council—

(1) notes that Wednesday 10 May marked 23 years since the
inauguration of late President Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela as
the first black South African President;

(2) further notes that President Mandela was inaugurated as the
first black President after the first democratic elections
after the fall of apartheid rule in 1994; and

(3) takes this opportunity to acknowledge countless and tireless
efforts to wage a concerted battle to make a clean break
from our atrocious, divided past and build a prosperous,
nonracial and nonsexist democratic society.

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Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

TSHWANE MUNICIPALITY SPEEDS UP SERVICE DELIVERY

(Draft Resolution)

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Thank you Mr Chair. I hereby wish to move
without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the Council—

(1) congratulates the Tshwane Municipality for speeding up
service delivery;

(2) notes that 6 000 title deeds are being handed out to
residents so that they can own their own homes, R660 million
will be invested in job creating businesses, R2 billion will
be spent on maintenance and upgrades so that our people have
reliable access to water ...

An HON MEMBER: Now that‘s a government.

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Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: ... is selling the mayoral mansion and using
that money to build homes for residents who really need them;

(3) further notes that seven informal settlements will be fully
formalised through Project Tirane, no politicians may travel
in blue light brigades or buy fancy cars in Tshwane because
they do not deserve special treatment, a total of 10 400 new
electricity connections and 6 500 households will be given
access to sanitation. [Interjections.] It‘s because you guys
can‘t do it that you are complaining.

(4) also notes that the new antidrug unit is dedicated to taking
drugs off our streets with the help of community-led
organisations which offer support and drug eradication;

(5) acknowledges that the City of Tshwane‘s bus service has
launched a cashless system so that bus drivers and
passengers don‘t have to take the risk of carrying cash; and

(6) further acknowledges that while the City of Tshwane does not
have all the answers to all the challenges, they are working
around the clock ... [Time expired.]

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Engelbrecht, your time
has expired.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, I was being continually interrupted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Your motion will now become a
notice of motion and will be printed in full on the next Order
Paper. Hon Julius.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, I have a problem that you don‘t
protect us when we are standing up here and I am being continually
heckled from the floor.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it‘s a minute and a half;
not two minutes. It‘s a minute and a half. Hon Julius.

MIDVAAL MUNICIPALITY BUDGET

(Draft Resolution)

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you House Chair. I move without notice on
behalf of the DA:

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That the Council—

(1) congratulates the pro-poor Midvaal Local Municipality‘s
budget that was delivered in Gauteng;

(2) further notes that at this week‘s state of the city address,
Mayor Bongani Baloyi, a young and dynamic leader of the DA,
budgeted for: firstly, R200 million to increase water supply
to Sicelo and other informal settlements, secondly,
R14,95 million to upgrade water treatment works at Vaal
Marina and expand the sewerage network in Sicelo and
Daleside, and thirdly, R350 million for sanitation;

(3) acknowledges that, like other DA municipalities, Midvaal is
committed to changing the past 20 years of ANC
mismanagement. Chairperson, in 2019 Gauteng will be DA led.

An HON MEMBER: Yes!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion? [Interjections.] In light of the objection the motion may
not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a
notice of motion.

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PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS REPORTS DISCREPANCIES ON SUPPLY OF COAL TO
ESKOM

(Draft Resolution)

Mr W F FABER: Thank you Chairperson. I move without notice on behalf
of the DA:

That the Council—

(1) notes that the DA welcomes the PricewaterhouseCoopers report
containing discrepancies on the supply of coal to Eskom by
the Guptas and Duduzane Zuma owned company Tegeta;

(2) further notes that the report includes five serious
findings, with inconsistencies and discrepancies, of reports
that have been backdated, no compliance to financial
evaluation, as well as poorly formulated contracts;

(3) also notes that one of the three contracts ... you must
listen to this ... amounting to R7 billion was for the
supply of coal by Tegeta to Komati Power Station which is
one of the five power stations identified for closure, and

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raises questions about how Eskom would be able to cover the
costs for such a contract;

(4) acknowledges that yet again it has been revealed how the
Gupta family in cohorts with President Zuma has captured the
state; and

(5) calls upon the relevant parties to account for their actions
to Council.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion? [Interjections.] In light of the objection the motion may
not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a
notice of motion.

DISENCHANTMENT WITH DECISIONS OF MUNICIPAL DEMARCATION BOARD

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M D MONAKEDI: I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council—

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(1) notes the collapse of trust between government and
communities that are disenchanted with the decisions of the
Municipal Demarcation Board, MDB, on the demarcation of
municipal boundaries;

(2) believes in the principle of fair and just treatment of the
communities of South Africa, irrespective of their
geographical, ethnic and tribal backgrounds;

(3) therefore welcomes the high-level ministerial delegation led
by the President of the Republic of South Africa the hon J G
Zuma, to the Vuwani community on Sunday 7 May 2017;

(4) further notes that despite the chaos that resulted in the
disruption of the said meeting, the meeting is a step in the
right direction by government to engage communities; and

(5) calls on the President of the Republic to explore an
integrated approach in reaching out to all communities
affected by the decisions of ... [Interjections.] ... the
MDB.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection?
[Interjections.] In light of the objection the motion may not be
proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice
of motion. Hon members, order!

ESCALATING VIOLENT PROTESTS ENGULFING COMMUNITIES IN LIMPOPO,
GAUTENG AND NORTH WEST PROVINCE

(Draft Resolution)

Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you Chairperson. I rise to move without notice
on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council—

(1) notes with serious concern the escalating violent protests
that have engulfed some communities in Limpopo, Gauteng and
North West Province;

(2) further notes with grave concern the total shutdown of
schools and businesses associated with these protests;

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(3) also notes that, according to the media, the reports of
these protests are associated with poor service delivery to
our people;

(4) condemns in the strongest terms the disruption of learning,
the destruction of property and violence associated with
these protests, while reaffirming the constitutionally
protected rights to freedom of association, assembly and
peaceful protest; and

(5) calls on the interministerial task team on governance to
urgently intervene in facilitating dialogue between the
affected communities and local government administrators
concerned.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion? [Interjections.] In light of the objection the motion may
not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a
notice of motion.

KARABO MOKOENA FOUND DEAD

(Draft Resolution)

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Mr J M MTHETHWA: On behalf of the ANC I hereby move without notice:

That the Council –

(1)

notes that Ms Karabo Mokoena who has been missing since 28
April was allegedly found dead with her remains burnt;

(2)

further notes that her family and many South Africans used
social media alerting the public about her disappearance
only for her to be found dead and brutally murdered by her
boyfriend;

(3)

takes this opportunity to convey its heartfelt condolences
to her family and condemns in the harshest possible terms
her brutal murder; and

(4)

calls on the police to work tirelessly to ensure that the
perpetrator is made to face to full might of the law for
his heinous and heartless crime.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

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SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY KILLED FOR ALLEGEDLY STEALING SUNFLOWER

(Draft Resolution)

Ms N P KONI: I move on behalf of the EFF without notice:

That the House –

(1)

notes that Coligny is the most remote town in Ngaka Modiri
Molema District in North West;

(2)

further notes that the town is characterised by racism and
poverty and that black people of this town are exposed to
every day exploitation by white farmers, for instance, the
killing of a 16-year-old boy for allegedly stealing a
sunflower;

(3)

calls upon our African brothers to unite in protecting
each other and together fight white racist tendencies; and

(4)

also notes that as black people we will never apologise
nor succumb to being exploited by white racist.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion? In light of the objection the motion may not be proceeded
with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a
motion.

LIONS ESCAPED AND FLED AWAY FROM THE KRUGER PARK

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M T MHLANGA: Hon Chair, on behalf of the ANC I hereby move a
motion without notice:

That the Council –

(1)

notes with great concerns that five lions escaped and fled
away from the Kruger Park on Monday morning close to
Komatipoort, a community of about 5 000 people;

(2)

further notes that the area around Kruger National Park is
one of the country‘s main tourist attractions and contains
villages and farms that also raise cattle, this puts
people‘s lives and the livestock at risk of attack;

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(3)

further notes that although four of the five lions have
been recaptured, however there is still one that has not
yet been found; and

(4)

takes this opportunity to appeal to Kruger National Park
and Mpumalanga Tourism and Parks Agency to work tirelessly
to get the outstanding lion and warn the people and the
community to stay alert and careful for their lives.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chair, I rise on a point of order that the
motion is a bit outdated because the lions are back. The only lion
that is still missing is our lion, Tau. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

MUNICIPALITIES IN MPUMALANGA OWE RAND WATER BOARD

(Draft Resolution)

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby wish to
move a motion without notice:

That this House –

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(1)

takes note that in a reply to a parliamentary question to
the Minister of Water and Sanitation, Nomvula Mokonyane,
it has emerged that as at February 2017, 13 municipalities
in Mpumalanga owe Rand Water Board more than R300 million;

(2)

further notes that Bushbuckridge Municipality being the
biggest debtor, now owes more than R200 million;

(3)

dissolves to call upon the member of the executive
council, MEC, for Co-operative Governance and the
Department of Traditional Affairs in Mpumalanga to account
as to why so many municipalities continue avert paying the
debt that they owe to Rand Water Board which is affecting
the flow of water supply in various municipalities through
out the province;

(4)

the MEC needs to ensure that the National Treasury mediate
between the Water Board and municipalities in terms of
section 44 of the Municipal Management Act;

(5)

notes that the DA will continue to monitor the situation
and ensure that our people throughout the country do not

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suffer the consequences of this dismal ANC-led
administration.

I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion? In light of the objection the motion may not be proceeded
with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a
motion.

CRICKET SOUTH AFRICA, NETBALL SOUTH AFRICA AND THE SA RUGBY UNION’S
RIGHTS REINSTATED

(Draft Resolution)

IsiZulu:
Ms L C DLAMINI: Sihlalo, angibonge ukuthi i-DA iyayibona [recognise]
impumelelo [achievement] ye-ANC e-Tshwane Metro.

English:
I hereby move without notice:

That the Council –

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(1)

notes and welcomes that the Minister of Sport and
Recreation, Thulas Nxesi, has reinstated Cricket South
Africa, Netball South Africa and the South African Rugby
Union‘s rights to bid for major events;

(2)

further notes that the three federations and Athletics
South Africa were banned from bidding and hosting major
international events in the country due to their failure
to meet their transformation targets last year, April, by
the former Minister of Sports and Recreation, hon Mbalula;
and

(3)

congratulates these federations on their attainment of the
agreed transformation targets and wish all of the best to
SA Rugby Union in their bid for 2023 Rugby World Cup

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REGIONAL MAGISTRATE COURT IN SKUKUZA IN THE
KRUGER NATIONAL PARK

(Draft Resolution)

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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby move
without notice:

That the Council –

(1)

welcomes the announcement of the establishment of the
regional magistrate court in Skukuza in the Kruger
National Park to combat rhino poaching; and

(2)

notes that the establishment of this court which has
jurisdiction to hear more serious matters over a lager
geographical area will increase the capacity and
successful criminal prosecution of rhino related and other
biodiversity crimes.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

TWO YEARS SINCE THE PASSING AWAY OF ISITHWALANDWE SEAPARANKWE, MME
RUTH SEGOMOTSI MOMPATI

(Draft Resolution)

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Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Chairperson, I stand to move without notice on
behalf the ANC:

That the Council –

(1)

notes that tomorrow, 12 May, marks two years since the
passing away of the struggle veteran and political
activist Isithwalandwe Seaparankwe, Mme Ruth Segomotsi
Mompati, in 2015;

(2)

further notes that Mme Dr Mompati was one of the leaders
of the women‘s march to the Union Buildings in 1956 and a
political activist who dedicated her entire life to
fighting for freedom and the emancipation of our people;
and

(3)

takes this opportunity to pay homage to this fearless and
great warrior of our struggle for freedom and reaffirm our
commitment to honour her memory and the indelible
contribution to our fight for freedom.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

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FORMER MAYOR ASSAULT JOURNALIST

(Draft Resolution)

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby
wish to move a motion without notice:

That the House –

(1)

encourages free and fair elections as a critical part of
our democracy;

(2)

notes that recently in Beaufort West a former mayor was
involved in, amongst others, assaulting a journalist in a
council meeting, verbally abusing members of the public in
person as well as over the radio and intimidating and
threatening activists for which he paid an admission of
guilt fine;

(3)

condemns this and other actions that will negatively
impact on the security of the elections; and

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(4)

calls on all political parties to contest the elections in
the manner that promote participation and celebrate our
democracy.

Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion? In light of the objection the motion may not be proceeded
with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a
motion. Order, hon members! We now come to the first motion on the
Order Paper as printed in the name of the Acting Chief Whip of the
NCOP, hon Nthebe.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, we once had an issue about the Chief
Whip hon Mateme in the first term of this august House, and we were
promised by the highest authority that the matter will be dealt
with. So, I am rising here seeing her in the House sitting where the
officials are supposed to sit and there has never been any
information to any political party that is in this House about the
matter. We are seeing her in the House, yet you are calling for an
acting Chief Whip. So, we need to know whether is she still the
Chief Whip of the House because that is the only platform where we

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can get information so that when we act, we act based on the
information provided by this august House. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, hon Dr Mateme is
a member of the National Council of Provinces, is still the Chief
Whip of the NCOP. Today we are aware that hon Dr Moteme was
attending the Pap meeting in Johannesburg and we are dealing with
things that need a quorum for us to vote today that is why she is
present here and she is not sitting where officials are sitting. She
is sitting where a Chief Whip is supposed to sit. As you correctly
said the issue was referred to the powers that be, allow that
process because ... don‘t subject me as the Presiding Officer to a
process that you know is not supposed to be part of the agenda
items. As of now I have to allow what is printed for us to continue
with.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I am so
sorry. I cannot see on that side, so I have not been alerted to that
fact. I received an email telling me that the Chief Whip is on
business. Now, there is an acting Chief Whip and the Chief Whip is
sitting in the House. There‘s no Rule in the Rule Book making
provision for a person sitting in the House and another person is
acting. So, either the Chief Whip has to take over her duties or she

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should leave the House, because she has actually appointed somebody
else to act. I can quote you the Rule. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you allow me to make a
ruling. Let me deal with the point of order. Hon members, let us not
raise an issue that is not an issue. [Interjections.] ...

Ms T J MOKWELE:

{Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, when you were
recognised I allowed you to speak. So, can I be allowed to make a
ruling? Hon members, as the hon Chief Whip of the NCOP was not part
of us this week, hon Nthebe was given the role to be the acting
Chief Whip. As we are proceeding today as we have started hon Nthebe
is still the acting Chief Whip of the National Council of Provinces.
I am clarifying that one.

The second issue, you raised a point of order about an issue that is
outstanding. I said, you know we do have the Chairperson and the
Deputy Chairperson and the issue is not part of what we are supposed
to be processing here. No.

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Hon members [Interjections.] ... I‘m still presiding. I can deal
with any other different issue not the one that I have made a
ruling. [Interjections.] ... No, allow me to {Interjections.] ... I
will give you a chance, but don‘t get to what I‘ve already made a
ruling.

Ms N P KONI: Chairperson, in future you must learn not to intimidate
us. You can‘t predict what I am about to say. You must give me the
platform and allow me. I am a member of this House and I have got
rights.

Chairperson, it can‘t be business as usual, we are not running a
company here. Hon Nthebe is acting. [Interjections.] Hon Chief Whip
is there sitting on the Chief Whip‘s seat. Now, at the same time hon
Nthebe is acting and they are both in the House. The Chief Whip must
go, and this matter of the Chief Whip that was raised is a crucial
matter. Maybe to you it is a light matter may be because you think
this is an ANC run company or a tuck shop. No, when it comes to
other parties, you must take us very serious as members of this
Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You have made your point.

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Ms N P KONI: No. It can‘t be business as usual that the hon Chief
Whip is sitting there with the matter at hand at the moment. Thank
you very much.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, I plead that we proceed with the business of
the day. You have made the ruling on the matter that is being
raised. You have also made a ruling that nobody will raise an issue
that you have already concluded on. Another thing, there is no Rule
no any convention that can bar the Chief Whip of the House from
attending the business of the House, Can we please proceed.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I have been very
lenient allowing a point of order that is not even part of what we
are discussing. [Interjections.] I am not going to entertain your
point of order.

Ms N P KONI: [Inaudible.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. It‘s not about prediction. I
am not going to entertain the issue of the Chief Whip because I have
made a ruling about it, and if you are not happy with the ruling,
you know the procedure.

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Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I need clarity on the ruling. If you
can just give us the Rule that you base your ruling on then I will
be happy. Because, I mean, it cannot be that you make a ruling and
you expect us to take it. We are all guided by the Rules. This thing
that the ANC factionalism and in fighting is actually causing
trouble today. You must sort yourself out before you come here.
Because there is a letter given by the Chief Whip, but the letter
wasn‘t withdrawn. You still have the letter. The Chief Whip comes in
and not talking to you, it‘s because of this factionalism in the ANC
that we are sitting with these problems today; and then you want to
run away with the Rule!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius and all of you can
you take your seats .Hon Mokwele can you take your seat.
[Interjections.]

Hon members, I have ...

Ms T J MOKWELE:

[Inaudible.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, you are not even
recognised and you are undermining the authority of a presiding
officer. I have given you an opportunity to present whatever. I have

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made a ruling about the issue. Hon Julius I am responding directly
to you on what you have raised. The hon Chief Whip is a member of
the NCOP and has got the right to be in the House.

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr B G NTHEBE): House
Chairperson, I hereby move:

That the Council—

(1) notes—

(a) the resolution adopted by the National Council of
Provinces on 20 September 2016, which established an Ad
Hoc Joint Committee on Ethics and Members‘ Interests
and a similar resolution adopted by the National
Assembly on 13 September 2016;

(b) that the committee was initially set to report on
10 November 2016, and a resolution extending the
deadline to 31 March 2017 was adopted by both Houses;

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(c) Joint Rule 138(5)(b), which provides that an ad hoc
joint committee ceases to exist when the date for
completion of the task has expired; and

(d) that the committee had ceased to exist after
31 March 2017 when the date for the completion of the
task expired;

(2) resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National
Assembly, to ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, can you take
your seats. [Interjections.]

Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... hon members ...

No, you know ... [Interjections.] Can you allow me to assist the
process?

Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... Hon members, can you take your
seats so that I can recognise you. [Interjections.]

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I am not the one who deals with mics; I just recognise you.
[Interjections.]

Yes, can you take your seat? [Interjections.] Yes, you‘ll be
recognised! [Interjections.] Take your seat! [Interjections.] Can
you take your seat! [Interjections.] You can‘t all be talking at the
same time! [Interjections.] How can I recognise you when all of you
are standing? [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hon
members ... [Interjections.] Yes ... [Interjections.]

Hon members, as this is a grave disorder, it would be in order for
me to suspend the business of the House for 10 minutes so that
parties can consult in the office of the Chairperson. After that, we
will resume the business of the day. [Interjections.]

I am asking Whips of parties to go to the office of the Chairperson
so that the issue can be resolved. We will resume in 10 minutes.
[Interjections.]

Because of the grave disorder.

BUSINESS SUSPENDED AT 14:55 AND RESUMED AT 15:04.

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BUSINESS RESUMED AT 15:04.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me take this
opportunity to apologise for what happened and thank you for
understanding and allowing us the 10 minutes to resolve the impulse.
We were able to try to stick to the time. Indeed, I can report that
the issue is receiving attention. Without much ado, I will come to
the first motion on the Order Paper as printed in the name of the
Acting Chief Whip.

RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF THE AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE ON ETHICS AND
MEMBERS’ INTERESTS

(Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr B G Nthebe): House Chair, I
move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That the Council–

(1) notes –

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(a)

the resolution adopted by the National Council of Provinces
on 20 September 2016, which established an Ad Hoc Joint
Committee on Ethics and Members‘ Interests (‗the
Committee‘) and a similar resolution adopted by the
National Assembly on 13 September 2016;

(b)

that the Committee was initially set to report on 10
November 2016, and a resolution extending the deadline to
31 March 2017 was adopted by both Houses;

(c)

Joint Rule 138(5)(b), which provides that an ad hoc joint
committee ceases to exist when the date for completion of
the task has expired; and

(d)

that the Committee had ceased to exist after 31 March 2017
when the date for the completion of the task expired;

(2) resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National
Assembly, to re-establish the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on
Ethics and Members‘ Interests with the same composition,
membership, mandate and powers as its predecessor;

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(3) instructs the Committee to incorporate in its work the
proceedings and all the work of the previous Committee; and

(4) sets the deadline by which the Committee must report as 31
August 2017.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

ORDER OF BUSINESS

(Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr B G Nthebe): I move the
motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration
of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have

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lapsed since the committee‘s report was tabled, be suspended for the
purposes of consideration of the Division of Revenue Bill [B 4 –
2017] (National Assembly – sec 76) and Financial Sector Regulation
Bill [B 34B – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 75).

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS THEREON

Mr S J MOHAI: Hon House Chairperson today marks yet another
important milestone in the calendar of our democratic Parliament
with the passing of the Division of Revenue Bill 2017-18 financial
year. As hon members would recall, this Bill seeks to provide
equitable division of revenue raised nationally amongst the three
spheres of government. In tabling this Bill, the then Minister of
Finance indicated amongst others that the transfers made through

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this Bill redistribute resources from areas of high economic
activity, where most of the country‘s taxes are raised to areas
where public services are needed most in other spheres of
government.

The allocation, distribution and stabilization of resources are
therefore a critical aspect in achieving the macroeconomic objective
of our country. Allocations made to the provincial spheres are
mainly for the provision of basic education, health, roads and human
settlements, along with other services in social development and
agriculture. Hence, both social and economic priorities are
emphasised.

On the other hand the allocations to the local sphere are to provide
for basic services such as water, sanitation, electricity
reticulation, as well as roads and community services. Emphasis is
focussed on ensuring service delivery. The Bill provides for an
amount of R1, 4 trillion total budget for 2017-18 and this increases
to R1.7 trillion in 2019-20 financial year. When the contingency
reserve, the debt service costs and provincial and local government
conditional transfers are excluded, the national equitable share
amounts to 47.5%; provincial allocation is 43.4%; and local
government received 9.1%.

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Despite the fact that the local government receives the smallest
share, it is based on the rationale that municipalities have greater
potential to raise own revenues compared to provinces and national
departments. On the other hand, the growth in the allocation to the
local sphere is aligned to the government‘s commitment to ensure
that the provision of basic services, particularly to the poor
households, is maintained and that access continues to be expanded.
During the briefings and public hearings, various stakeholders and
provinces raised concerns with the current formulas that are used to
calculate the provincial equitable share and local government
equitable share.

The National Treasury has indicated that the equitable share formula
is currently under review and some of the issues and concerns raised
will also be taken into consideration. Despite the concerns raised,
most stakeholders agreed that the 2017 Division of Revenue Bill
allocations provides for a substantial redistribution of revenue
raised through taxes in relatively wealthy areas and where the
demand for subsidised public services is the highest. Thus, most
rural municipalities receive twice the allocation per household than
what is transferred to metropolitan municipalities. The committee
has however found that there are still some challenges at the local

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spheres such as effective planning, budgeting, efficient and
effective spending of the allocated funds, as well as capacity to
manage debtors and creditors.

House Chair, it is for this reason that the Bill contains measures
to introduce new conditional grants, reprioritisation of some grant
funds, ring fencing of some grant funds, the termination of certain
grants, the reconfiguration of certain grants and reductions and
additions to some conditional grant baselines. The report that is
tabled in the House has far greater details that will assist members
when they go through it. The committee welcomed the National
Treasury‘s initiative of introducing the Municipal Standard Chart of
Accounts which is an attempt to improve the financial capacity of
South African municipalities.

Having considered the Division of Revenue Bill 4 of 2017 and
submissions made by stakeholders and provinces the Committee
recommends the adoption of the Bill without amendments.

Declaration(s) of vote:
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: House Chairperson on behalf of the Western Cape I
would like to record the following declaration regarding 2017
Division of Revenue Bill. This Bill has highlighted that provinces

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face a number of economic challenges such as 35% of the labour force
remains unemployed – income growth remains uneven – the baseline of
the municipal infrastructure grant is reduce by 100 million. The
direct competent of water services infrastructure grant is reduced
by 400, 4 million and the urban settlement development grant
baseline is reduced by R90 million.

The cost for provinces and municipalities to provide public services
is growing at a faster rate than transfers from the national
government. Chairperson, the DA‘s promise to the people of this
province is good governance. This is also our promise to the rest of
the country after the 2019 elections when we will be the national
government. Our success brought about its own challenges where the
rapid migration of people to this province from other parts of the
country and elsewhere, it is difficult to build infrastructure
required to cater for the bigger number.

We have only enough funds to build and replace 10 schools while the
actual need over the 10 year period amounts to 86 new schools and
the replacement of 72 schools. This number does not even make
provision for special needs schools. Hon Chairperson, on behalf of
the Western Cape we remind this House of the promise made by the
President in his state of the nation address reply 2016 to deal with

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gangsterism and drugs in the Western Cape. This commitment has still
not beard any results to date.

The Western Cape province calls on National Treasury to consider the
correct statistics in the migration to the Western Cape and
therefore allocate financial resources accordingly. Hon Chair, I
wish to make it clear that the Western Cape continues to spend
budget allocations responsibly further focusing on service delivery
of the poorest of its communities. Hon Chairperson the Western Cape
supports the 2017 Division of Revenue Bill.

Mr B G NTHEBE: No Chair, mostly we want to support the commitment on
the conditional grants that they are beginning to bring results to
the communities - also, the commitment on the establishment and the
upgrading of the sports facilities. We also want to emphasise that
monitoring mechanism on the under expenditure and roll over is also
a commitment. And on this as the North West we want to welcome the
commitment that the eradication of the bucket system will also be
catered in this. We want to support the Division of Revenue Bill.

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, us in the Northern Cape we support
the Division of Revenue Bill because it fulfils the requirements set
out in the relevant sections of the Constitution and government‘s

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response to the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC,
recommendations and any assumptions and any assumptions for formula
used in arriving after respective decisions amongst provinces and
municipalities. It is also in line with section 10(5) of the
Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act.

Hon Chairperson, the allocated funds in the Division of Revenue is
dedicated to realising of the Constitutional mandated social rights
of our people including education, health care, social security and
housing. The Northern Cape province receives a total of R10,
009 billion for the 2017-18 financial year of which the equitable
share of allocation amounts to R11, 7 billion unconditional grants
to R14, 3 billion. Especially grateful hon Chairperson, this
province to the government provincial roads, maintenance grants, the
Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period, R3, 4 billion for
comprehensive HIV and AIDS, TB grant 1, R6 billion, education
infrastructure, R1‘ 6 billion as well - human settlements, R1,
3 billion and the health revitalisation grant is R1, 2 billion.

Also special mentions, social work employment grant of R600 000 for
the current financial year - the learners with profound intellectual
disabilities, R2 million. And for Early Childhood Development, ECD,
and I am very passionate about this, R13, 8 million. We are grateful

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to the 16 municipalities in the Northern Cape in receiving
allocations for bulk water supply for amounting to R1, 426 million.
Hon chairperson, us in the Northern Cape believes that the Division
of Revenue Bill will ensure that our province continues with its
mandate to work tirelessly to deliver to deliver quality services to
the people of the Northern Cape. We support the Division of Revenue
Bill.

Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Chairperson as Limpopo we support the Division
of Revenue Bill which provides for the equitable division of revenue
raised nationally amongst national, provincial and local spheres of
government for the 2017/18 financial year. The Bill also makes the
determination of each province equitable share and allocation to
provinces, local government and municipalities from national
government equitable share and the responsibilities of all three
spheres through such divisions and allocation.

It is our view as Limpopo that a Division of Revenue Bill promotes
predictably and certainty in respect of all allocations to provinces
and municipalities. It allows us the opportunity to plan our revenue
allocations over a multi year period which also ensures that there
is proper co-ordination between policy, planning and budgeting. The
Bill also promotes transparency and accountability in the resource

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allocations processes by ensuring that all allocations except
Schedule 6 allocations are reflected on the budget of provinces and
municipalities - and the expenditure of conditional allocations if
reported on by the receiving provincial departments and
municipalities.

As the Limpopo province, we have engaged all stakeholders in the
province about the allocations to our province although there is a
general consensus that we need more resources to continue our agenda
of delivering quality services to the people of Limpopo. We are also
conscious of the fact that we work with limited national resources.
It is for this reason that under the leadership of Premier, Mr
Mathabatha and MEC of Finance, Mr Rob Tooley, we have made a
collective resolution to optimally and with great imprudence use the
resources allocated to our province to change the lives of our
people.

I have been particularly mandated by the Limpopo leadership to
express our appreciation to the fact that the value of the
households‘ subsidy for free basic services was updated to our
account for rising prices including bulk water and electricity.
Indeed this demonstrates that the ANC government is a caring
government. As the Limpopo province we want to say that we must

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continue our focus in alleviating the burden of poverty facing many
of our people.

Declarations of vote (contd).
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: House Chair, the province of KwaZulu-Natal
declares its mandate in support of the Bill. Service delivery is
continuing in KwaZulu-Natal. Through this allocation, we have seen
allocations to fighting corruption and crime, particularly in the
border area of Mozambique, Swaziland and KwaZulu-Natal, where high
crime of hijackings and social ills have emerged: For instance, the
killing of people with albinism for muti purposes.

The allocations of the province address these matters of service
delivery. Children in these areas have benefitted through this
allocation. R10 million has been allocated to make sure that there
are boats to help children to cross big rivers and to make sure that
they do receive the basic right to education. The province of
KwaZulu-Natal has also learnt fast to start building its own
revenue; to start making sure that it is resilient against the
economic imperatives that are negative to service delivery.

In its commitment, it will continue to serve the people of KwaZuluNatal. Last year it was voted by independent media companies as the

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best government, and that government is run by the ANC. That is the
government for the future even after 2019. The ANC will continue to
lead and it will continue to commit itself to fight poverty,
underdevelopment and make sure that there is employment. It will
continue to make sure that corruption doesn‘t find root to its
governance. The province of KwaZulu-Natal support thus. Thank you.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: House Chair, we the permanent delegation from the
province of Mpumalanga carry a full mandate signed by the speaker of
Mpumalanga Legislature. We support Bill 4 of 2017 because it gives
expression to our commitment to bring development to all our
communities and address the challenges of poverty and unemployment.
The Bill allows us to continue to exploit job creation opportunities
offered by the emerging green economy.

As Mpumalanga we have put in place measures to develop our
suppliers, SMMEs and co-operatives from historically marginalised
communities to enter into the supply chain of the major industry as
we begin our long road towards radical economic transformation. It
is our view that our SMMEs and co-operatives can no longer be
regulated to just supply toilet papers, stationary and catering
amongst other things.

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This Bill gives expression to this commitment and other measures
that has been put in place to ensure economic advancement of the
previously marginalised communities. We join the people of
Mpumalanga and all stakeholders in our province to welcome and
support and support the Division of Revenue Bill, Bill 4 of 2017, as
a decisive expression of the will of our people and work tirelessly
to change the lives of the people of Mpumalanga. I thank you.

Ms M J MOSHODI: Hon Chairperson, the Free State supports the Bill
but also raised some concerns. One, the equitable share formula must
be reviewed as it is not based towards addressing rural and poor
municipalities‘ needs. Secondly, the sufficient allocation of the
Water Service Infrastructure Grant to the Free State must be
considered. Another issue is that the Provincial Road Maintenance
Grant must be increased, ensuring the centrality of the province.
Otherwise, the Free State supports the Bill. I thank you.

Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon Chair, Eastern Cape province supports the
Division of Revenue Bill 4 of 2017 because it is aligned with the
broad trust of our state of the province address by our hon Premier
Phumulo Masualle on 17 February 2017. It builds on the work that we
are doing as the province to improve the lives of our people and
give expression to what we intend to do over the MTEF period to

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advance radical economic transformation and deliver on equality
services to our communities.

The projected receipt of the 2017-18 financial year are
R74,64 billion which consist of equitable share of R61,847 billion
accounting for 83% of our provincial receipt. Conditional Grants of
R11,29 billion amount to 15% of the total allocation and a total of
R1,4 billion of provincial own receipt.

The 2017 allocation will assist us to ensure that our province
fiscal policy over the 2017 Medium Term continue to focus on giving
greater impetus to raising the level of regional economic growth
through improved capital investment, support enterprise development,
promote primary agriculture production, agro industrial development
and ensure efficient and effective service delivery at our municipal
level.

As the province, we welcome and support this as decisive and
indicative of our continued fight in a battle against poverty,
unemployment and ensuring that our people receive quality services.
I thank you.

Voting.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We shall now proceed in
voting on the question. I now call upon provinces.

Eastern Cape?
Free State?
Gauteng?
KwaZulu-Natal?
Limpopo?
Mpumalanga?
Northern Cape?
North West?
Western Cape?

Eight provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed
to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

IsiXhosa:
Mnu D L XIMBI: Sihlalo, bendifuna ukuqonda ukuba ingaba ivumelekile
kusini na le nto yenziwa yile mibutho mibini i-EFF kwakunye ne-DA
yokushiya iNdlu ngenjongo yokuba ichithakale. Enkosi.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you can‘t deal with it
that way. They know what they are doing, so we have to sort our own
selves. I am not entertaining that issue!

Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order: The hon member is making
accusations that we have left as the DA and the EFF to make the
House collapse. That‘s absolutely not true and I want you to ask him
to withdraw because I am still here and we are not causing the House
to collapse. He must withdraw. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I don‘t know
what you are trying to achieve! The secretary will read the Second
Order of the day.

FINANCIAL SECTOR REGULATION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report Select Committee on Finance
thereon)

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, hon members of the House, the
Financial Sector Regulation Bill also referred to as a Twin Peaks is
a comprehensive model for regulating the financial sector in South
Africa.

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Its purpose is to address the shortcomings of the current financial
legislation given that South Africa has not changed its framework
for the financial regulation since the creation of the financial
services board and the Office of the Registrar of Banks in 1990.

The Treasury indicated that the current regulation challenges in
South Africa are that too many regulators are involved with the
financial sector. Most financial firms are regulated by different
financial regulators and there is a need to co-ordinate these
regulators.

South Africa has learned some lessons from the global financial
crisis that occurred in 2008 and 2009 and the world‘s responses to
such crisis. The crisis we had since 2008 was primarily caused by
the creed of bankers, caused by the financial sector in the United
States; and it is us the developing world who are at this moment
bearing the ultimate cost.

Furthermore, peer review of the current legislation has shown that
the impact of poorly designed relations and increase in cost on
society in general amongst other things. The Twin Peaks seeks to
strengthen financial stability; improve market conduct; widen access

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to financial services and combat financial crime such as money
laundering.

In simple terms the Bill aims to make the financial sector safer and
make it work more effectively in the interest of all South Africans.
It intends to reduce potential threats to financial stability and
better protect customers by ensuring that financial institutions
treat customers fairly; enhance financial inclusion and ensure
financial transformation.

The main intends of the Bill are the peaks which are the development
of the Prudential Authority, a body that will promote and enhance
safety and soundness of financial institutions; as well as the
financial sector conduct authority that will protect financial
customers and the financial services tribunal, which will hear and
decide appeals in a transparent manner; ensure financial stability
through the SA Reserve Bank and the financial stability oversight
committee; a committee that will co-ordinate financial stability
issues.

Hon Chairperson, the committee had 29 hours dealing with the Bill.
We took a study tour to Mexico in August September 2016, and on the

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14 February we engaged with the Bill, again and went to public
hearings on the 28 and 29 March.

We thank the stakeholders who appeared before the committee and made
their submissions in Gauteng. During the public hearings the
National Treasury and the Financial Services Board responded to the
issues raised by the stakeholders. The committee then had a clause
by clause deliberation on the proposed amendments of the Bill with
the National Treasury and the Reserve Bank on the 03 May 2017.

When we look at the implementation of the legislation, the National
Treasury did a study on the Twin Peaks in 2016. Successful
implementation of the Bill is expected to enhance co-operation and
co-ordination between regulators through a legal framework.
These regulators include the National Credit Regulator; the Council
for Medical Scheme; the Competition Commission and the National
Consumer Commission under the umbrella of the Council of the
National Regulators.

A Crisis Management and Resolution Framework will be established to
better manage possible disruptions in the financial system that
threatens financial stability. The Reserve Bank; the Financial
Stability Oversight Committee and the Financial Sector Contingency

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Forum will work together to ensure overall improved financial
stability.

The Prudential Authorities under the auspices of the Reserve Bank
has been task with the responsibility of enhancing soundness of
financial institutions and protect customers against the risk of
failure of financial institutions.

The support systems established in terms of the Bill such as the
Financial System Council of regulators; Financial Inter-Ministerial
Council; the Ombud Regulatory Council and the Financial Services
Tribunal are expected to facilitate this implementation.

On observations and the way forward, the committee was in particular
concern, Chair, about the impact of the new financial sector
regulation model would have on the fees the financial institutions
will charge customers and the disproportionate impact this would
have on the poor and those with low-incomes.

In order to better protect the customers the financial sector must
be held to higher standards that generic customer protection of
standards must be applied consistently across the sector. The
committee noted that all the stakeholders concerns were made during

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the public hearings which are summarised in the report, and the
National Treasury and the Financial Services Board responded to
that.

The Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE, and the Banking Association of
South Africa explicitly supported the objectives of the Bill in
relation to the financial inclusion and through transformation of
the financial sector.

The committee noted Banking Association South Africa, Basa‘s,
proposal that Parliament should conduct effective oversight through
hearings over the implementation of the Bill. We will definitely do
that. Provide stakeholders with an opportunity to present their
particular experiences over the implementation period to Parliament
and a framework on oversight consumer protection education as well
as inclusivity.

Hon Chairperson, the committee recommends the adoption of the Bill
with these proposed amendments: 60 clauses were amended as well as
schedule 4, referring to the Amendments to the Financial Markets Act
section 50; section 132, 135, 137 and 138 are aligned to the
Financial Intelligence Centre Act, referring to the requirement for
inspections in three sets and investigations.

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Hon Chairperson, I table the report and the proposed amendments to
the Bill for consideration by the House. The DA reserved its
position on the Bill. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Debate Concluded.

Declarations of vote:
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The Amendment Bill
known as Twin Peaks which provides for a major overhaul of the
regulation of the financial sector in South Africa was referred to
the NCOP in December 2016.

Contained in its provisions is the establishment of two new
regulators, including a new Prudential Authority responsible for the
regulation of the soundness of firms and a new market conduct
authority responsible for the regulation of the conduct of firms.

The Bill, which triggered in excess of twelve months to claw its way
through the NA has made its way through the NCOP in six months. In
spite of the fact that both Houses have scrutinise this Bill for a
collective 18 months we still reservations.

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Our reservations include co-ordination. The National Credit
Regulator responsible for the regulation on the credit industry will
not fall under the Financial Sector Conduct Authority which will be
established in terms of the Bill.

The decision not to include the National Credit Regulator under the
Financial Sector Conduct Authority, compromises an important
objective of the Bill, that of improving the co-ordination of the
financial sector in South Africa.

Finally, our reservations include excessive cost. The key impact
study estimated that the total cost of implementing the Bill would
be about R1,03 billion, included in this amount is R341 million to
establish the Prudential Authority; R611 million to establish the
financial conduct authority.

However, this excludes transitional costs which are yet to be
finalised. The concern here is that not only are the costs excessive
but they will be past on to consumers which could compromise another
important objective of the Bill, which is financial inclusion.

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We cannot therefore support the Financial Sector Regulation Bill and
hope that these defects will be fixed when the Bill is firmly back
in the NA. Thank you.

Mr S J MOHAI: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Unlike the party of
litany of reservations without providing any solution, the ANC rises
in support of the Financial Sector Regulation Bill. In essence, for
stability in the financial sector, globally it can have a
devastating impact as we have seen in 2007 to 2009.

Besides meeting our international obligation as the Republic, the
Bill seeks to ensure that we regulate for financial stability;
regulate so that we improve market conduct; and that we regulate so
that we provide greater access to financial services for the poor.

The objective reality that confronts us as global financial crime,
illicit flows, money laundering and transfer mispricing have all
required increased financial sector regulation. The Bill will reduce
potential threats to financial stability and better protect our
people from unscrupulous behaviour and deal with unfair financial
practices.

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To do this, we are introducing regulatory structures to promote and
enhance safety and soundness of the financial institution; a matter
that is critical to any functioning economy. Protection for those
who transact the financial sector is provided through the Financial
Sector Conduct Authority and the Financial Services Tribunal. That
will hear and decide appeals in transparent manner as well as
ensuring that financial stability through the SA Reserve Bank and
the Financial Stability Oversight Committee.

Hon Chair of the House, in line with our constitutional
responsibility as the NCOP, we have consulted widely and embarked on
a rigorous process to give the Bill due diligence.

We have conducted public hearings in Gauteng as indicated.
Certainly, we have concerns in particular, the impact of the new
financial sector regulation model will have on the fees the
financial institutions will charge customers; and the
disproportionate impact this would have on the poor and those with
low-incomes.

In order to better protect the customers, a financial sector must be
held to higher standards that generate consumer protection and those
standards must be applied consistently across all sector.

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Most Bills that introduce fundamentally new systems, especially if
they are of comprehensive, technically challenging and long as the
Financial Sector Regulation Bill are, are never perfect by the time
they are voted on in Parliament. The real test of their provision is
in the implementation. The ANC support the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, the UDM supports the Bill. For once
there will be stability in the financial sector. Our people, the
poor people have been suffering and being overcharged by Banks,
insurance companies, and so on.

We hope that this Bill will bring stability to the financial sector,
for too long our people have been suffering for years, where they
were being overcharged. Some of them have been paying - as hon
Nthebe was saying - insurances for years; and just because they
missed a payment, that policy is gone.

We are living with these people here. We hope that this Bill will be
consulted on this year, but we hope that this Bill will bring
stability and it will help our people, the poorest of the poor. The
UDM supports the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, it seems that there
is no quorum, and in terms of Rule 61(1) the bells will be rung for
three minutes.
In view of the issue of the quorum, in terms of Rule 61(2) I
therefore postpone the decision on question.

Decision deferred.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, in view of the
issue of the quorum, in terms of Rule 61(2), I therefore postpone
the decision on the question. The secretary will read the Third
Order of the day.

Hon De Beer?

Mr C J DE BEER: Chair, it is with utter dismay that we experience
what is happening now. South Africa is waiting for this. This is to
protect the poor people as well. This is to fight money laundering
and financial crime. And this is the reaction of the opposition. We
will carry this message to north, south, east and west of South
Africa [Interjection.]

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon De Beer, the secretary
will read the Third Order of the day. [Interjections.]

Hon members, hon De Beer was out of order. We‘re now getting to the
Third Order. I‘ve made my ruling about today‘s procedure.
[Interjections.] To who?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order House Chairperson. I understand
that you said hon De beer was out of order and he was. I respect
your decision but I would like to ask you to rule earlier before he
makes a declaration. [Interjections.] If the ANC can‘t govern, they
don‘t have their people here today, it‘s not because of us
[Interjections.] it‘s you who don‘t do your job.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You‘re out of order; you can
take your seat.

Hon members, you know you can‘t compromise the decorum of the House.
The secretary must read the third Order of the day.

Hon Khawula?

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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, besides hon De Beer being out of
order. But because of the accusation that he has made to the
opposition parties, I think he must withdraw because 100% of the UDM
is in the House, 100% of the IFP is in the House. Now, hon De Beer
must withdraw we proceed Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon De Beer, can you retract
what you have said though I have made a ruling? Can you retract what
you have said?

Mr C J DE BEER: I made a mistake, I referred to the DA. I made a
mistake and if I have to withdraw in terms of the rules I will
withdraw. Thank you.

PROTECTED DISCLOSURES AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of and Report)

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, on 22 November 2016, the National
Assembly referred the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill, Bill 40B
of 2015, to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence. On 22
November 2016The, National Council of Provinces referred the Bill to
the Select Committee on Security and Justice for consideration and

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report. On 30 November 2016, the select committee enquired into the
subject of the Bill and invited the Department of Justice and
Constitutional Development to brief the select committee on the
purpose and content of the Bill.

The subject of the Bill, the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill,
2015, emanates from the SA Law Reform Commission's report on
protected disclosures. The Bill aims to, first, extend the
application of the Protected Disclosures Act, Act 2 of 2000, beyond
the traditional employer and employee relationship; second, amend
the principal Act in order to regulate joint liability; third,
introduce a duty to inform employees or workers who have made
disclosures; fourth, provide for immunity against civil and criminal
liability under certain circumstances; and fifth, create an offence
in the case of false disclosure.

The select committee in keeping with the principle of facilitating
public involvement in the legislative processes of the NCOP, agreed
to facilitate public participation by advertising the Bill in print
media in both national and provincial newspapers, on the
Parliament‘s website and other social media online platforms between
12 and 20 January 2017. The select committee received three
submissions from the following organisations, namely, the Open

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Democracy Advice Centre, Whistle Blowing International Network and
Corruption Watch. On 15 February 2017, the committee met with the
aforementioned organisations and the Department of Justice. The key
issues raised by the organisations that made submissions were
related to the following, the intentional false disclosure - clause
9(b).

The stakeholders argued that the insertion of the clause to create a
crime was not necessary considering the repercussions that do exist
if a person makes a false disclosure. However, the department
asserted that clause 9(b) is aimed at deterring people from making
false disclosures. The department maintained that reputation damage
was a serious offence. The stakeholders were concerned that this
would have the opposite effect and discourage the legitimate
disclosures for fear of arrest.

The majority view held that clause 9(b) must remain in the Bill as
it acted as a deterrent to anyone acting with the intent to report a
false disclosure with the intention to cause harm. The committee
noted that clause 9(b) was not aimed at deterring protected
disclosures, but balancing the protection afforded by the Act to
upstanding South African citizens making protected disclosures while

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also protecting against elements that wish to cause intentional harm
to an institution or individual.

The Protected Disclosures Act protects whistle-blowers when making a
bona fide disclosure, but if a disgruntled employee makes a malicious
false disclosure, the reputational damage suffered to the individual
or company takes a long time and expenses to clear. The disgruntled
employee may be prepared to lose his employment to cause harm to the
individual or company and the addition of clause 9(b) adds a
deterrent to this potential situation.

The minority view agreed with the concerns raised by the public
submissions on the possible chilling effect clause 9(b) might have
on protected disclosures. The members argued that the punitive
measures a company could impose by means of dismissal were a
sufficient deterrent to prevent false disclosures. The members noted
that the inclusion of clause 9(b) could have a chilling effect on
whistle blowing for fear of prosecution.

The select committee considered the subject of the Protected
Disclosures Amendment Bill, Bill 40B of 2015, referred to it, and
reports that it has agreed to the Bill with the following proposed
amendments. Clause 1 on page 3, from lines 33 to 35, to omit all the

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words from ―being‖ up to ―offence‖ and to insert ―being subjected to
any civil claim for the alleged breach of a duty of confidentiality
or a confidentiality agreement arising out of the disclosure of,
one, a criminal offence or information which shows or tends to show
that a substantial contravention of or failure to comply with the
law has occurred in occurring or is likely to occur‖

The Select Committee on Security and Justice therefore recommends
that the Council approves the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill,
Bill 4OB of 2015, with the aforementioned amendments as referred to
it. Thank you, Chairperson.

Debate concluded.

Declarations of vote:
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, it is vital for South Africa faced
with corruption of a crippling scale to protect whistle-blowers. Our
laws go far away in doing just this and unfortunately the system is
still letting them down. The Amendment Bill seeks to address these
weaknesses by strengthening the provisions preventing those making
accurate disclosures from being mistreated. Our protection is also
extended to former and temporary employees, contract workers and
service providers.

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We welcome this. However, there is a section to which we in line
with the majority of the opinion raised by public stakeholders
object to. This specific section states that where an intentional
disclosure of information known to be false is made, or of
information that should the reasonably have been known to be false,
the whistle-blower is guilty of a criminal offence.

In the committee the ANC argued that the clause is necessary to
deter people from making false disclosures as it could cause major
reputational damage to victims. No proof of current abuse of this by
whistle-blowers was presented. False disclosures are not and have
never been protected by our law. This means that false whistleblowers could be subjected to disciplinary actions even dismissal
and civil claims for damages suffered. Contrary to this, the
committee did hear that whistle-blowers in South Africa are already
being subject to enough risk and difficulties in coming forward.

South Africa will be the first country to criminalise the disclosure
of information which was mistaken but honestly believed to be true.
Whistle-blowers have the other duty to first investigate and verify
information before they report wrong doing. Failure could make of an
honest and sincere whistle-blower through this Act, a criminal.

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The Bill‘s test of blameworthiness is much more burdensome an open
to skewed interpretation than in the rest of the world. In a country
with the majority of bona fide whistle-blowers requires
investigation. In a country where corruption is the order of the day
and those standing up to it need to be protected not vilified, the
DA cannot support this Bill whilst the clause is included.
Furthermore, if this Bill, like the previous one, does not pass, the
blame should not be laid at the door of the opposition because the
question can be asked to the government whose duty is to pass their
legislation. ANC, where are your members if you are so concerned? It
was you who let the country down today. Where are your members? Why
can‘t government pass its own laws? Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chairperson, as the ANC we really support this Bill
precisely because it was engaged thoroughly by the committee. The
presentation was done and we acknowledge that. Even the DA itself
did engage with the Bill. They raised their concern and the
chairperson has also indicated that we have noted their concern. But
I also believe that in South Africa in terms of the majority,
majority rules. We took a decision because we understood the purpose
of the Bill. It protects the whistle-blowers and it will of course

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assist the state and other institutions going forward. Thank you.
[Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, as you are aware
that there is no quorum, we shall therefore, in terms of section 57
and section 61(2), postpone the decision on the question.

Decision deferred.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND
JUSTICE THEREON, PROVISIONAL SUSPENSION FROM OFFICE OF MS S R
MONALEDI, REGIONAL COURT PRESIDENT, NORTH WEST

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, the Select Committee on Security and
Justice, having considered the report on the provisional suspension
of a magistrate, Ms S R Monaledi, a Regional Court President from
North West, tabled by the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services in terms of the Magistrates Act 90 of 1993 reports as
follows: The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, on 1
December 2016, tabled a report in Parliament on the provisional
suspension of a magistrate, Ms S R Monaledi, for Parliament‘s
approval in terms of section 13(3)(c) and (d) of the Magistrates Act
90 of 1993.

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On 8 March 2017, the select committee received a briefing from the
representative of the Ethics Committee of the Magistrate Commission.
The committee was advised that on 1 October 2015, the commission
appointed two senior magistrates in terms of the regulations as
investigating officers.

Ms Monaledi is a member of the South African Judicial Education
Institution and serves on the various forums that necessitate that
she travels on many occasions in and outside her area of
jurisdiction. Due to Ms Monaledi‘s nonco-operation during the
investigation, the purpose of all her trips could not be
established. The inference drawn is that some of these trips were
not for official purposes.

Ms Monaledi‘s constant absence from the office is confirmed without
any doubt in that during the past three years of 2013 to October
2015, she spent an average of 71,49% of the available work days away
from the office. It is not sure whether or not she indeed was in her
office on the other available court days, which is 28,51%. Ms
Monaledi does not render any court work in the regional courts.

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Ms Monaledi, it seems, created a second salary for herself by means
of monthly substance and travel claims. During the past three years,
she claimed a total amount of over R900 000.

Discrepancies, including overpayments and fruitless expenditure were
identified. She, in contravention of section 15 of the Magistrates
Act 90 of 1993, is the incorporator and presently an active director
of a private company Boitha, Tours and Construction. She is also a
founding member and an active director of Kwa-Litho Agricultural.

She, when travelling to the various courts in her region for
official purposes and during official office hours, sold expensive
clothes apparently from Dubai, from the boot of her car. She visited
some of the regional magistrates to substantiate her travel claims.

Ms Monaledi obtained a certificate of good standing from the
Secretary of the Magistrate Commission in which it is indicated that
there are no pending investigations against her, despite the fact
that she had been informed of the decision to conduct a criminal
investigation against her. It was confirmed by the Office of the
Chief Justice that this certificate of good standing was indeed used
as motivation when she applied to be appointed as a judge in the
High Court.

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The commission was therefore of the view that there is more than
sufficient evidence available to prove on a balance of probabilities
that Ms S R Monaledi made herself guilty of misconduct. There is
also prima facie evidence that Ms Monaledi, on numerous occasions,
submitted false substance, travel and transport claims and therefore
committed fraud.

She was also given an opportunity to show cause why the commission
should not recommend that she be provisionally suspended to which
she has failed to respond. The commission, at its meeting held on 25
November 2016, deliberated the matter and held the following views.

One, the available evidence against Ms Monaledi is of such a serious
nature as to make it inappropriate for her to perform the functions
of the magistrate or regional court president while the allegations
are being investigated.

Two, her conduct, tarnishes the good name, dignity and esteem of the
Office of the magistrate and the administration of justice.

Three, without anticipating the outcome of the investigation into
the fitness to hold the office of the magistrate, the available

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evidence against Ms Monaledi is of such a serious nature that it
would justify her removal from office should she be found guilty of
the misconduct charges which are preferred against her.

Four, the available evidence against Ms Monaledi justifies that she
be criminally charged on numerous accounts of fraud.

Therefore, in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the Magistrate Act 90 of
1993, the Minister, on the advice of the Magistrate Commission and
noting the provisions of the Act followed by the Magistrate
Commission, concur with the Magistrate Commission to provisionally
suspend the magistrate from office, pending the outcomes of the
investigation into her fitness to hold office.

Therefore, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having
considered the report on the provisional suspension from office of
magistrate of Ms S R Monaledi, a regional court president in North
West, tabled by the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services,
in terms of the Magistrates Act No 90 of 1993, reports that it
concurs with the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services and
recommends that the National Council of Provinces confirms the
provisional suspension from office, pending the outcome of the
investigation into her fitness to hold office. Thank you.

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Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, North West, Northern Cape, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance of section 65 of the
Constitution.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): I would like to remind members of
a briefing on the preliminary visit of Taking Parliament to the
People, Free State province, which will take place immediately after
adjournment.

The Council adjourned at 16:17.

 


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