Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 09 May 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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TUESDAY, 9 MAY 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 10:10.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, before we proceed, I would
like to welcome the Ministers and Deputy Ministers present. I would
also like to go back to the session on or about 7 March where we had
two apologies from two Ministers not able to attend – one sick and
one off on official duty. Their deputies weren‘t available, and
therefore this House took a resolution that we would write to the
Ministers and reinstate the questions.
We are very happy to welcome both the Minister of Defence and
Military Veterans and the Minister of Justice and Corrections. So,
today we will start off our question session by inviting these
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Ministers. The hon the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans,
please proceed.
Question 13:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, allow me to
start by expressing a word of gratitude for allowing us to excuse
ourselves last time but also for allowing us to come back and answer
these questions even though this is not a Peace and Security Cluster
Question Session. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
The first question raised by hon Stock relates to Project Drummer.
Project Drummer was successful in reaching all its objectives. The
first phase of Project Drummer was introduced to address the
mechanical reliability and maintainability of the Oryx helicopter
fleet.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just a moment, hon Minister. Hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Sorry, Chairperson. I don‘t see the hon Dikgang Stock.
Is he here today?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: My apologies. The hon Stock is not
here. I have been instructed that the hon Ximbi will deal with the
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questions from both the hon Stock and the hon Mohapi. Please
proceed. I am sorry for the interruption.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, the first
phase of Project Drummer was introduced to address the mechanical
reliability and maintainability of the Oryx helicopters. This phase
entailed the overall upgrade of engines and dynamic components and
the implementation of airframe modifications to extend the lifecycle
of the fleet.
The second phase of Project Drummer was introduced to mitigate
obsolescence by means of an avionics and communication systems
upgrade. The communication planning system and mission planning
system were upgraded during this process. This also included
hardware and software upgrades. A total of 39 Oryx helicopters had
been modified during phase two. All these platforms were
successfully handed over to, and accepted by, the Chief of the
SA Air Force. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for
the explanation. I think, because we are worried ... we once visited
Bloemfontein and saw the other helicopters that were not in good
condition. Therefore, we are thankful that we hear this from you.
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Minister, do you think it is enough for the Defence Force – those
that were already upgraded? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, through you to
the hon Ximbi: That is not necessarily the case. I am sure you are
aware that we have a number of challenges, starting with issues
relating to the budget of the SA National Defence Force. We also
have a challenge, at times, with regard to capacity and capabilities
to repair some of our equipment. As you would know, what we have
done – Project Drummer, for instance, was conducted between this
department and Denel. Denel was able to repair a total of
39 helicopters.
Obviously, we need to do more. There are more helicopters that
require the attention of the Defence Force and that need to be
repaired. At the time when we then receive more resources, or if we
are able to reprioritise from our current budget, we will repair
more helicopters. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister:
Finally! I first have to note it is unfortunate to see that you
survived yet another Cabinet reshuffle. Hon Minister, with reference
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to Project Drummer, now that you have all these Oryx helicopters, my
question is the following: Who will be flying them? What are you
doing about the shortage of qualified pilots within the Defence
Force who are supposed to be flying these Oryx helicopters? Thank
you very much, Chair.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, I will attempt
to answer that question. However, the hon member knows this is a
human resources-related matter. Here, a matter had been raised
relating to Project Drummer, which has to do with repairs of the
Oryx helicopters.
However, I would like to say the following, Chairperson: Yes, for
now we have not had a situation where helicopters are parked and are
unable to perform their required duties because of human resources
or personnel challenges. The point is that we do have pilots. They
may not be enough, but we have never had a situation where an Oryx
is not flown to do what it is supposed to do at the required time
because there are no pilots. We have not had that kind of challenge.
Nonetheless, we are focusing on the training of pilots by the SA Air
Force. Yes, we also have training of pilots outside of the Republic
of South Africa, which is through an agreement between us and some
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of the countries that have come in to assist us in capacity
building. Thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister: Whilst
the Minister has been telling us about the repairs done on the Oryx
helicopters, and we are busy with the Defence Force repairs and so,
can she perhaps also tell us about the repairs done on our three
submarines, which are also part of a new, big issue? We would like
some insight into the three submarines bought at a huge cost but
that are not being used.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, you may choose to
respond. The original question was based on the repairs of
helicopters.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: The response ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon Faber! The Minister will choose
whether or not she wants to expand this into submarines. Hon
members, you are supposed to ask follow-up questions that flow
directly from the principal question. Hon Minister?
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, thank
you for your comments. Yes, I would be ready to receive a question
from you on the repairs of the three submarines. However, for now, I
am dealing with Operation Drummer.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I find it problematic immediately said
it is a human resources issue. It is a human resources issue within
her department, and therefore I expect her to give a clear answer.
It is one thing to say that we have the pilots, but all of them are
busy flying on flight simulators, and none of them has helicopters
to fly. Now that you have the helicopters, now all of a sudden, we
don‘t have enough pilots. The reason why we – at any given time –
don‘t have pilots or aircraft is because the Air Force is, at this
stage, in very big trouble in the sense that we don‘t have
resources; we don‘t have money. There is virtually no air force
available, unless it is for a VIP flight.
I would like a clear answer from the Minister as to what her
department‘s plans are to ensure that the restored or upgraded
aircraft will be flown by competent and sufficient pilot staff. Not
only the pilot staff component, but an entire group of experienced
personnel is needed to keep an aircraft in the air.
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I asked this question the last time around, Chairperson, about us
losing valuable human resources within the department, and it goes
directly to the heart of this question: What is the use of making
sure that we eventually, and with a lot of trouble, try to restore
or upgrade our aircraft but are losing, at the speed of light, human
resources? The Minister knows it is true, and it is supposed to be a
problem that I hope is bothering her as well. What are the clear
plans of the department to address this? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, you have asked a number
of questions. Minister, I don‘t know which one you are going to
respond to.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, the hon
member made a point about the number of pilots we are losing. Yes,
he is correct. It is not just the pilots. There is a general braindrain of personnel within government departments – not only in the
Air Force, not only in the SA National Defence Force.
If you talk about education, there was a time when we were losing
teachers to Saudi Arabia because it was deemed greener pastures,
better payment. The same applies to nurses and doctors. There was a
time when government, or the Department of Health, was losing a
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number of nurses and doctors because of the better opportunities
provided outside the Republic of South Africa.
So, on the matter of losing pilots, yes, we have lost pilots. On the
matter of financial resources for the SA Air Force, you know this is
not a matter that affects just the SA Air Force. It affects the
entire SA National Defence Force, the whole issue of cutting down of
budgets. I should also venture to say that it is not just the
SA National Defence Force that has suffered huge budgetary cuts; it
is the entire government. This is because of the economic challenge.
Because of the lack of financial resources within government, other
government departments have had to suffer as well.
I have not heard of an instance where an Oryx has not been flown
because there is no pilot or engineers available. You made the point
that it is not just about the pilot. You also need to have engineers
in the Oryx if it is flown. It is a team of three, and I have not
had a situation where we have had an accident because there was just
one person in the cockpit. We have always had the full complement
when flying an Oryx. I invite you, if you so wish, to come and look
at the composition of a team on duty at a specific time when they
are flying an Oryx. Thank you, Chair.
Question 35:
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: The South African
National Defence Force currently is employing three battalions and
15 companies for Operation Corolla to safeguard the Republic of
South African borders through mobile and foot patrols. We are
supported in this by the border police of the South African Police
Service, traffic departments, the Department of Home Affairs and the
Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.
With regard to activities on the KwaZulu-Natal, Mozambique,
Swaziland and South Africa; the concept of operation is about
conducting mobile and foot patrols; apprehending illegal migrants –
if we do come across them – and hand over to the South African
Police; of course, there is a project of expansion of liaison with
neighbouring states‘ defence forces and the police.
We have seen a number of operational successes and hon Chair is
aware that even though we have a total of 22 companies which are
designed and prepared to go on Operation Corolla, we currently have
15 on the ground. Reason why we have 15 is because of – again – the
financial challenges of the South African National defence Force,
so, we are only able to deploy 15 out of the 22.
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There are very unique challenges for each one of the borderline
areas. For instance, there is a matter here raised about criminality
and hijacking of cars which are sent across the borderline. On the
border with Mozambique in the area called uMhlabuyalingana, we are
responsible for the 96 kilometre street of borderline. There, we
have had to device other ways of preventing criminals from crossing
into Mozambique with 4x4 bakkies which they have stolen in South
Africa.
If you visit the border you‘ll see that we have huge rocks which
South African National Defence has had to put on the borderline,
right on the fence so that robbers are unable to drive these
vehicles across. You will recall that the late President Mandela and
President Chissano then, took a decision to soften and lower the
fence on the borderline.
But also, when we talk about issues of trade, we also talk about
free movement of people and this has affected us now that we have
borderline control back to the South African National Defence Force;
we have encountered a number of problems and people have had to use
different initiatives to try and counter the very intelligent, the
so-called intelligent criminals who are doing crime in that area of
the borderline.
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Because we‘re not working alone, we‘re working with other government
departments. We‘ve had operational successes. In the 2016/17
financial year we‘ve confiscated illegal weapons and dagga; and
we‘ve apprehended a total of 6 570 illegal foreigners. We‘ve
recovered 84 vehicles, we‘ve confiscated contraband worth over
R13 million; and of course you‘d know that in the Kruger National
Park area we‘re also working closely with the Department of
Environmental Affairs with a ranger to prevent rhino poachers.
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you very much, hon Minister, for the response. I
do want to say that because of the gravity of the situation. I think
it was in December, the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League in
uMkhanyakude, when the KwaZulu-Natal government visited that area,
amongst other things he pointed out that as young people of the ANC
are demanding that government must build a wall between South Africa
and Mozambique. Of course, I‘m opposed to that. But I‘m saying due
to the gravity of the situation, there are people who are feeling it
in the area; whilst I‘m opposed to the wall, but I‘m saying the
situation is such that people are now beginning to think like
President Trump.
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Be that as it may hon Minister, the Department of Home Affairs has
reported to our select committee that in addition to the official
border post that we have in the country, there is more than 200
unofficial entry points and their other concern is that in some of
these unofficial entry points there are security personnel who
accept bribes for people to either go that way or come this way.
Is the department aware of that? If it aware, what is being done in
respect of those officials who are corrupt, accepting bribes and
intensifying this situation where government is trying to control
issues and people who are officials are making it worse by doing
these shenanigans?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: One of the things we
need to take cognisance of is generally our policy, our Constitution
and the fact that as South Africa there are certain things we should
not do. What we do need to do is to find a smarter way of border
patrols. For instance, we are not just talking about the fence but
we‘re now talking about cameras, sensors, we‘re looking at all of
those things; things which will not harm and hurt a person for
trying to cross the borderline but things which will ... at least
alert our officers working in that area.
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Yes, the Department of Home Affairs has identified these areas and
there are several hotspots which we have also identified; but what
is good about it is that sometimes you find on the borderline
families which are split by the actual borderline. You find a
Mahlangu family on the other side of the border in South Africa and
another Mahlangu across the borderline in Swaziland or Mozambique.
And for that, the Department of Home Affairs together with us have
agreed that we need to indentify these hotspots and create what is
called community crossing areas; where you will have one or two
officers who will be recording all the people who are crossing the
borderline. Sometime people cross five times a day. All that we need
is their biometrics; we need to have information about those people
who are on the borderline in those villages so that we allow for
them ... because some of them come to shop in South Africa, the
nearest shop to where they live is in South Africa. So, you‘ve got
to take that into cognisance as we‘re dealing with these issues; so,
you don‘t have communities which can only cross at border posts,
there are areas which are clearly designated for them as a community
to cross on the borderline which are called community crossing
areas.
We‘re working very well and very closely with the KwaZulu-Natal
Provence especially when it comes to uMhlabuyalingana. In their
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2016/17 budget they have an allocation of R50 million which is meant
to also deal with this issue of illegal migration of criminality on
the borderline. What this money is meant to do is to create what is
called to put concrete slaps which are called New Jersey Barrier.
These slaps will prevent these criminals from driving across in the
same way that we have these boulders which I referred to earlier on.
It is always better when the national government works closely
together with the provincial government because you then complement
one another; it‘s good in this case because we‘re working very
closely with the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Government and they are
helping; they‘ve not left this thing to the South African National
Defence Force, to the Inter-Ministerial Committee at national level,
they too have taken an initiative to meet us halfway to try and deal
with some of the challenges.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, the Minister touched quickly on
Project Copper which is our duty in terms of the Sothern African
Development Countries, SADC, agreement to also do border patrols
around the Mozambican coastline. But, recently there has been an
acknowledgement that the South African Defence Force does not have
the necessary airborne and able asset to fulfil these duties. What
is the department‘s immediate plan to ensure that we do fulfil our
duties in terms of the agreement of Project Copper?
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, the one
thing which excites me about you is that you keep on making
reference to the shortage of financial resources which is very good
but members of these committees are aware of these challenges.
Because it is only Parliament which can help government departments
to secure more money so that we can do some of the things which we
have an obligation to do.
You‘re now mentioning this project in the Mozambican channel. In the
first instance that project involves three countries: South Africa,
Mozambique and Tanzania. It is not just the responsibility of South
Africa to deal with issues on the Mozambican channel. But what is
the beauty about it is in spite of the financial challenges we have;
in spite of the shortage of assets, we have allocated assets for use
by those who are in the Mozambican channel; not only that, the
operations in that area have served, Chairperson and hon members, as
a deterrent from pirates coming down the Indian ocean into our
coastline. Even if you had incidents of piracy - for instance - in
the horn of Africa, but you do not hear about incidents which are
around the Mozambican channel down to the Republic of South Africa,
precisely because in spite of shortages, challenges, constraints
which we have as the republic of South Africa and as SADC, we have
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an agreement of a maritime security strategy and through it we have
been able to prevent and deter pirates from coming down.
I‘m just saying, therefore, in the long winded way that in spite of
challenges that we have, financial constraints that we have in the
defence force have not led to a situation where we are in a state of
paralysis and certain things are not been done; yes, there‘s work
been done; yes, there has been successes as a result of the
deployment of soldiers in that area in spite of these problems. So,
hon members I‘ll be happy to hear that you‘re part of the Select
Committee and the Joint Standing Committee on Defence because it is
through that Joint Standing Committee of Defence and the Select
Committee and the Portfolio Committee of the NA that we can get to
National Treasury but also for Parliament to push that more
resources should be allocated to government departments and in
particular, you cannot treat the South African National Defence
Force in the same way that you would treat any other government
departments, precisely because we are the last line of the defence
of the Republic of South Africa.
I was saying yesterday to some people that we‘re all talking about
inclusive economy, accelerated economic development, radical
economic transformation; all of those things will not succeed if
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there isn‘t proper security on the borderline. Everyday people talk
about illegal migrants, undocumented migrants in South Africa; they
are there because there isn‘t adequate resources for us to do some
of the things which we would want to do. But nonetheless, thank you
raising this matter on this operation and I‘m happy to inform you
that in spite of those challenges, shortage of assets; but we‘ve
deployed assets in that area and this success is seen by the fact
that we‘ve not had incidents of piracy in our shores.
Ms L C DLAMINI: We are very much excited that we‘re going to have a
border management authority which will be the one dealing with
issues of the borderlines, which had been a problem.
My follow-up question, hon Minister, will be that to what extend is
the damaged borderlines affecting the operations of your officers,
even the fact that now you‘re not responsible for the fixing of the
borderlines? But just on a lighter note, the damages on ... I‘m not
saying it‘s the defence force that is doing that, you‘ll also notice
in one of your institutions which we visited on Friday, the damage
on the fence around Khayelitsha, that‘s a by the way. But my next
question is that to what extend does it affect you hon Minister?
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, you‘re
correct. If we go back to the history of South Africa, I‘m sure
you‘re aware that there was a time when South African Defence Force
then took charge of all of the infrastructure requirements we have;
if you talk about building a fence, the defence force would do that
without any hesitation because they had the resources and they also
had a mandate to do so.
You now have the Department of Public Works, whose mandate, amongst
others, is to look after the assets of the Republic of South Africa.
Whatever you do, as a department, if it has to do with
infrastructure, you then have to work hand-in-hand with the
Department of Public Works. And if the Department of public Works is
unable to meet your needs at that particular time, then you have to
find other ways of dealing with it. For instance, the matter you‘re
raising that you visited another ... I‘m sure it‘s a base around
Cape Town; it‘s not the only which has those kinds of challenges.
Even on the borderline, even with regard to accommodation for the
very same soldiers who are patrolling the borderline, our
accommodation has very very serious challenges. There‘s nothing you
can do as the South African National Defence Force, you depend on
the Department of Public Works to partner with you to deal with
those issues.
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You may have heard last week, making a point that, money or no
money, Department of Public Works or not Department of Public Works.
There are certain projects which we, as the South African National
Defence Force, have to embark upon as quickly as possible; precisely
because even if you have your soldiers deployed on the borderline,
there has to be an incentive for that, they must look forward to
that deployment; they must not get to the deployment area or areas
and find that the accommodation which is provided to them is
inhabitable. One of the biggest challenges is to deal precisely with
that. You can have your rations delivered everyday, they may have
their uniforms, they may look happy, but if the accommodation ... –
you may even have the fence that we‘re talking about – but if there
are issues of the logistics in terms of the accommodation where they
are and provision of material they need are not there, it makes life
difficult for them.
On this note, we started engaging the Department of Public Works two
years ago already, where we were talking about issues around some of
our hospitals like 1 Military Hospital. There‘s a project underway
there which public works was involved in and at some point we‘ve had
to agree and sign a memorandum of understanding that as the
Department of Defence we‘ll now take over the project.
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We do have what is called a Works Formation within the South African
National defence Force. It‘s a small entity, still new, but through
that Works Formation we‘re looking at re-skilling some of our
soldiers who may not be deployable now to the front or combat or
even for peace keeping, we‘re now diverting them to the Works
Formation so that this Works Formation can take over the works of
renovating some of the infrastructure which we need.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: The Minister told us in a lot of detail about all
the challenges they‘re faced with. I am still eagerly waiting to
hear about some success. The question is what are doing with the
staff that they have?
We know about some challenges, for instance, 35 Squadron has been
grounded since September last year. Minister, my question is, your
foot patrols in that area, how many undocumented foreign nationals
have they get there and how many did they take for their documents
to be processed?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, you‘re
not listening. Because you‘re fixated in raising a question which
you wrote some time that this is what I‘m going to be raising, to a
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point to where you‘re not listening to some of the explanations that
I‘m giving.
Just a minute, earlier on under the same subject matter I had given
you a number of illegal foreigners who have been apprehended
crossing the borderline or even committing crime. And I said 6 570,
here in this House and in this session, you were here; but because
there‘s this fixation that this is what I‘m going to raise, you did
not even listen when I was responding to him because I then started
providing answers to issues he had not even raised.
Yes, I‘m giving you the answer. I am saying in 2016/17 financial
year we have apprehended 6 570 undocumented migrants or illegal
people who were crossing the borderline. I don‘t know where you‘re
at church or a funeral, I hear you sighing. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member! Hon Minister, please take
your seat.
Hon Mokwele, hon Mokwele. Hon Minster, please take your seat.
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Hon Mokwele, we will not have dialogue, which is going this way in
the House hon members. Hon member we‘re proceeding to Question 14,
that is a question posed by the hon Mhlanga. Hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes ma‘am.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: May I address you?
Will you please protect me from the hon member?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You‘re protected.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Because the reason
why I spoke in the manner in which I did it is because she continues
to heckle where ... she‘s not even heckling, it‘s better if a person
stands up and says point of order and raises a matter. If she
doesn‘t do that then I‘m unable to help her.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, proceed to Question 14.
Hon Minster, please take your seat. You‘re on your feet hon Mokwele,
your point of order?
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Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, can you also protect me? Because I have never
uttered a word about the Minister. I‘m talking to my colleagues here
and I‘ve never said anything about the Minister. If she wants me to
say something to her I would definitely do that. I have never spoken
to her and she pointed a finger at me and you have never said
anything to her. I have never said anything to you and I will never
say anything to you. But if you want me to do that, I will
definitely do that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, may I address you? You
actually did. Hon Mokwele, you will behave yourself. You are
accusing the Minister of pointing at you; you are also pointing a
finger at her.
I‘m going to appeal to this House for order. Hon members, you can
allow the House to degenerate or you can allow us to get the answers
we have come this morning for in this House.
You‘re protected if you follow the rules hon Mokwele, if you heckle
you will not drown any speaker on the floor.
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Hon Minister, you will be protected also for undue heckling, but
heckling is allowed in the House as long as it does npt drown you
out. Please proceed ma‘am. Question 14.
Hon Minister please take your seat. What is this, point of order
ma‘am?
Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, wa itse gore ka dinako dingwe ga go
monate mo go rona. Gone jaanong ke lebega jaaka motho o o letshwenyo
mo Ntlong...
English:
... I‘m being attacked, I‘m not scared to be attacked but you must
also protect me as a member of this House. People have heckling
here, nobody has ever said anything, but because it‘s Mokwele, my
name must be there as if I‘m unruly. You have never said anything to
the Minister while she attacking me whilst I was sitting down.
Please, I don‘t want your ruling but I want you to treat us equally.
I‘m just appealing to you, thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, you will get my ruling. I
have ruled on this matter. I have said you will be protected. I have
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also said heckling is allowed in the House. I am also emphasising
that this House will not be disrupted. As long as you heckle within
the confides of the rules you‘re protected, but as soon as you drown
anybody who is on the floor, that goes beyond heckling and I will
rule on this instant.
Question 14:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, hon
members, the establishment of a credible, reliable and secure
national military veterans database is an ongoing effort executed in
collaboration with the support and participation of key role players
including the South African Military Veterans Association which is
an umbrella body of military veterans. This process also includes
individual military veterans associations and the Department of
Defence and Military Veterans. The database is a baseline for
determining beneficiaries and the credibility of the Department of
Military Veteran system. It is ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, please take your seat.
What is your point of order, hon member?
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Ms T J MOKWELE: Oh! I thought that the hon member is not here, he
arrived late. So, I wanted to say that he is not in the House, my
apologies.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you ma‘am that is not a point of
order. Hon Minister, please proceed.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, the database
is the baseline for determining beneficiaries and credibility of the
Department of Military Veterans system. It is our core business
process and for this reason it has been identified as the most
important work stream even in the turnaround strategy which we
developed last year.
The department is currently mapping the processes for the database
with a view to clearly determining clear operational rules by 31
March 2017. Currently, our database contains 77 769 records
inclusive of 6 051 deceased military veterans whose integrity and
accuracy is being assessed and improved continuously. The figures of
military veterans who are alive consist of plus minus 67 000 and are
from the following entities: 51 621 former nonstatutory force
members; 4 042 former TBVC states members and a total of plus minus
48 025 former statutory forces. Thank you.
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Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, we accept and acknowledge the response given
by the hon Minister. My follow-up question is in regard to the
beneficiation of the beneficiaries of our military veterans
particularly with regard to medical cover. I think that it is now
almost nine years since the inception of the Act. Minister, we just
want to know, how soon is the department going to enact the
acknowledgment of our children or the military veterans‘ children to
benefit in the same medical cover service? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, I must
say from the onset that it is a very difficult question. I said
earlier on that the establishment of the database requires of us to
have continuous verification processes because of some of the
challenges. In the first instance this is a department which was
established very late. It was established during the last
administration, after 15 or 17 years in government and now are on
the 23rd year. The biggest challenge we have is whereas the Act
defines clearly who a military veteran is, but because we started so
late, it would have been easier if we started as early as 1994 and
had a department of military veterans. Now, we started very late and
of course there is now a scramble for people to have their names
reflected on the database that is why I say that we have this
ongoing process.
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With regards to medical care in our APPs last year we said that our
target for 2016 would be providing medical care to 14 500 military
veterans and those are the ones we gave medical cuts to. We exceeded
the target and we were able to provide medical cuts to 15 740. These
are now military veterans; the question you are raising is about
dependents of military veterans. I must say that this is a matter we
are discussing right now. But obviously in everything we do, we will
have to have some form of guidelines. What do I mean by that? If for
instance as a military veteran I have plus minus 25 dependants will
the department be required for all 25 dependants? Or shouldn‘t our
priority be to look at the numbers of children you have and provide
medical attention to those children? If you have four children and I
have 18 children, what do you do? Do you divide your resources to
cater for all of these people? Should we not have a ceiling where we
say that each veteran should submit a list of three to five
dependants? Those are some of the things which are very difficult to
make a determination on and I have requested the advisory council
and the South African Military Veterans Association, Samva, to be
the ones who make that kind of determination so that you are not
seen as a Minister as the one coming up with a policy which is
likely at the end to be interpreted as a policy which will leave out
or marginalise some of the people.
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Veterans themselves must make a determination as to how many
dependants do I have and how many dependants should be assisted by
the Department of Military Veterans.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, Hon Minister, I note that you made a
note that if you have 25 dependants and therefore I am so glad that
some people we know are not military veterans. Minister, based on
the database of military veterans on Friday 07 April 2017, a group
of largely young people dressed in military gear stood outside
Luthuli House to guard the headquarters of the ANC against protests.
Now, not only that day but in other ANC events also we see these
people in military gear. They pose as allegedly uMkhonto Wesizwe or
military veterans. I think that is a serious indictment on this
department because it is seen to want to take your place as military
veterans. These Ben 10s that we see all over the show now, young
guys ... [Laughter.] ... You just said that the database of them ...
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is your question hon Julius? Your
time is running out.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Minister, I want to know if you ever did something
about this? Did you inquire from the ANC about what happened because
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some of the senior leaders in your party actually questioned this
and said they do not know those people? We want to know from you as
government, do you know these people and what did you do because it
is a serious indictment on the security of this country, do we have
a third force in this country protecting the ANC elite from the
people?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Julius, I
initially thought that you were talking about military veterans,
those whose particulars are contained in our database. Now the
security of Luthuli House on 05 April and the deployment thereof was
not done by the Department of Military Veterans. Hon Julius, allow
me to finish. If you walk out and go to any Chinese shop around the
corner here you will find a military fatigue and that is the truth
of the matter and anyone can pick up a military fatigue and put it
on. So, we can‘t discuss here in this House a matter of people who
were securing Luthuli House because those people were not deployed
by the Department of Military Veterans. So, when we raise issues of
the Department of Military Veterans let us link them to people who
are out there who are wearing uniform at any given time. I do not
think that it would be fair.
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I did not take the register or the database of the Department of
Military Veterans and tick who is deployed at Luthuli House to
secure the building. I did not do that because it is not my
responsibility to do that but what I do know is that, whatever
benefits we roll-out must be rolled-out to military veterans. That
is why we have this ongoing process of verification because you want
to make sure that government resources and taxpayer‘s monies is
spent on legitimate military veterans and not on me standing up and
claiming that I am a military veteran when I am not. I am just
saying that on that matter, we should separate the two, the issue of
deployment and securing Luthuli House has nothing to do with the
Department of Military Veterans. We do not deploy people to do that.
If there were people there who looked very young or even very old, I
do not know who was at Luthuli House.
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, hon Minister,
IsiZulu:
... phakathi kwezinkonzo ekufanele zidluliselwe abadala abazabalaza
ngokwezimpi, kukhona izinkonzo ezinjengezindawo zokuhlala, ngiyazi
ukuthi lezo zinkonzo zidluliselwa kakhulu kubona ngumNyango
weZokuhlaliswa kwaBantu. Nakuba kunjalo kodwa la kulo mkhakha
wabadala abazabalazayo, emkhakheni wezimpi kukhona labo abahlomulayo
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ngezindlu. Ngakho-ke Ngqongqoshe ngiyafisa ukuzwa ukuthi nina
nithatha liphi iqhaza ekutheni bathole izindlu ezifanele bona kuya
ngokuzabalaza kwabo? Ngiyabonga.
English:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, hon
member, after the establishment of the Department of Military
Veterans there was consultation with National Treasury and
guidelines which were given to us as a department were that where
there is a government department responsible for providing a
particular service, the Department of Military Veterans may not do
the same. In other words on the matter of housing for instance, it
is the Department of Human Settlements which delivers houses to
military veterans but what we do as a government department is to
give to provide financial resources. A particular amount from our
budget is transferred to the Department of Human Settlements. And
then of course we also provide the Department of Human Settlements
with a list of those who should be prioritised for Housing. It is
for that reason, for instance, that last week you saw the Minister
of Human Settlements had a summit where she invited military
veterans. It is because it is squarely at the doorstep of the
Department of Human Settlements to provide housing to military
veterans. However, they do not have the database of military
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veterans and they have no capacity to verify that information, so we
have a responsibility as the Department of Military Veterans to
Provide them with Information and to verify the credentials of the
Military Veterans contained in that database.
Yes, if you also look at for instance in the area of education, we
provide education support but in fact for all those who are going
for higher education we always find ways of diverting them to NSFAS
because we work with NSFAS so that the Department of Military
Veterans is not seen to be providing a service which is already
being provided for by another government department. So, yes, on the
matter of housing we have a budget within our budget but we may not
build houses. However, one thing that is encouraging and which we
want to commend the Department of Human Settlements for is that they
made a commitment last week that as they build houses for military
veterans, they will also use companies which are owned by military
veterans. What that means is that at least there is going to be job
creation for military veterans.
We also have that responsibility as the department of assisting
military veterans to establish companies so that they too can
benefit from the economy of the country and all of that work is
being done by one of the entities within the Department of Military
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veterans and of course we have those companies in our database as
well so that whenever we can, if there is a service which we can
outsource to a company of military veterans, then that is done.
Thank you.
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, Minister, my question is that earlier
you indicated that the establishment of the military database is an
ongoing process. Now in as much as we want to appreciate and welcome
that but surely there has to be a cut-off date, there must be a
timeline. I am raising this to ask you, when do you anticipate that
this database will be established? This answer is important to this
question because it makes other state institutions namely Sassa
vulnerable because they are also offering grants for military
veterans and so we need to establish that these people indeed do
qualify for that assistance that the government provides. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, thank you
hon member for the question, now you talk about timelines for the
establishment of a database. May I just remind you that even those
people who are now leaving the system of the defence force, the
moment you retire or resign from the South African National Defence
Force you are automatically regarded as a military veteran. You too
have a right to be registered with the Department of Military
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Veterans so that we can provide some of the services which you may
require.
Yes, a lot of time when we talk about military veterans we are
talking about those prior to 1994 and we forget that the rate of
attrition in the defence force for instance is very high. People are
leaving the defence force because they are sick. People are leaving
because it is retirement time and the moment they leave the
Department of Defence they become military veterans and obviously
will belong to some association and will be associated with that.
Now, you cannot have a timeline, you can‘t say that my deadline for
registering military veterans is as follows. You can‘t because you
have people who are leaving the system everyday and they become
military veterans. It is therefore an ongoing process. What is
important is that as you register people in your database, you have
to make sure that they have a force number because a force number is
what will help us prove that the person indeed comes from a military
system and therefore that person is a military veteran. So, Chair,
it is an ongoing process.
Question 15:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, yes I
will respond to this question because it is here; actually the
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issues we have just dealt with now are issues relevant to question
15. I just want to say that some significant progress have been made
in providing quality education for military veterans and their
dependants.
An education support policy has been adopted which will
be implemented in 2017-18. The department of military veterans has
since 2014 provided education support to military veterans and their
dependants.
The 2014 pilot saw the DMV providing education support to about 200
military veterans and their dependents at the time. The demand for
the benefit has grown significantly. In 2016 academic year, the
Department of Military Veterans provided education support to 5 807
military veterans and their dependants. This exceeded the targets we
had set for ourselves of 4 500. As I am talking now, as at May 2017,
we have 8 768 applications that we have received for both basic and
tertiary education; and 5 225 of which are continuing learners from
2016 academic year and 3 543 are new applicants. The department
faces severe challenges with the human and financial capacity to
process and pay for education support, given the massive increase in
demand for this benefit. New standard operating procedures are being
developed for 2017-18 financial year so that we can implement our
education support policy effectively.
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It is also proposed to significantly increase the budget – I am sure
the hon members who serve in the committee are aware that we already
have budget deficit in this area of work, by huge amount, and I sure
we are going to called in at some point by Scopa to come and explain
why. It is because whereas we had anticipated that we would support
an X number of people the requirement far outnumbers the number of
people we had budgeted for, in the education support. Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu D L XIMBI: Ndiyabulela Sihlalo weNdlu, ndikwabulela noMphathiswa
njengoko ebesele etshilo ukuba lo mbuzo uyafana nale mpendulo
ingentla. Eyona nto ndiyibulela kakhulu Mphathiswa yile yokuba nide
nagqitha kumlinganiselo. Ndifuna ukuthi qhubani ngolo hlobo. Ze
nicele kurhulumente anixhase apho nisilela khona. Enkosi.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I think that was just a
comment.
Siswati:
Ms L C DLAMINI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo lohlon. Ngicabanga
kutsi, Ndvuna, le ye-siling kutawufuneka kutsi kukhulunyiswane ngayo
sibone njengPhalamende kutsi silisita njani litiko kutsi litfole
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imali; ngobe inkinga kutsi ubehlukanisa kanjani emkhatsini
bantfwana. Wehlukanisa njani kutsi kuncono ngikhiphe lo ngifake lo?
Njengatsi tsine bantfu kuyenteka kutsi lapha ekhaya kube nebantfwana
labanyenti balapha ekhaya, kulomake munye. Ngicabanga kutsi
kutawufuna kutsi siyihlalele phansi siyidzingidze kutsi siphuma
njani kuloko.
Umbuto wami lengiwengetako kutsi: Ikhona yini indlela lesemtsetfweni
lapho nihlephulelana khona le-database nalamanye ematiko kuze kutsi
nabo bakhone kutilungiselela. Loko futsi kungasita ekutseni ...
English:
... those who don‘t know that they qualify for some support are also
taken care off by the different departments? Is there such a formal
way where you share the database that you currently have?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, yes
there is a formal process. For instance, with the Department of
Human Settlements there is a committee within the Department of
Human Settlements which works closely with us in the DMV, which is a
committee which sits and discusses what is possible and what is not
and is aware all the time and alert to the amount of money available
for spending on military veterans.
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This is also a committee within that committee within that
department which interact with the municipalities – that is also
another thing which we should take cognisance of – that whereas the
Department of Human Settlement is a national department but the
delivery of houses in the provinces is really done through
municipalities and the provinces as well as an oversight role, etc.
So, there is regular interaction between the Department of Military
Veterans and those who are responsible for the delivery of houses
the provinces in the municipalities.
With regard to education, as I said earlier on, we engage with the
Department of Higher Education and Training in particular because
that is where our challenges are, even though the numbers of
dependents or beneficiaries who are registered for education support
are in the main in basic education. So, when the needs arise for us
to share information because there is something that we need to do
with a particular department, that information is shared with that
department.
If, for instance, I may use the example of the Department of Defence
is that one of the decisions we have taken is that our military
veterans should go to any military hospital when they need medical
attention; precisely because, it is very expensive to go the private
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sector route for military veterans; because of the amount of money
which is budgeted for military veterans. So, we encourage that
military veterans should go to military hospitals where there is no
military hospital you go to any medical point which is used by
members of the SA National Defence force; there you just present
yourself.
What is important is for us to be able and for the military veteran
to prove that indeed he is on the database of the Department of the
Military Veterans. Remember that even when a military veteran goes
for instance for private consultation to a private doctor the
Department of Military Veterans must pay for that military veteran.
So, it is for that reason that we really encourage military veterans
to rather use our medical facilities as the defence force.
In the past, for instance, members of the statutory forces those who
were in the SA Defence Force – those in the TBVC benefit. They go to
our military hospitals for medical attention. We are now encouraging
that all those who are military veterans and have the medical cards
should present themselves to any military hospital and you will
receive attention. So, it is for that reason that we are therefore
compelled to – it is not by chance or co-incidence – you are
compelled to share your information as a department with a
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department which is assisting you to roll out a particular benefit
to a military veteran.
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I am asking a
question which is related to what the hon Dlamini has asked you for
but I just want you to be specific in terms of the link with NSFAS
because the hon Minister is saying they have got a budget deficit
but NSFAS has declared that no learner will go unfunded if they are
deserving cases – now in order to ensure that those deserving cases
do not go unfunded at tertiary is there a link between your
education programme and NSFAS; secondly to also find out if the
military – what would be the youngest age in your records of a
military veterans who is younger than all of them in the country;
what should be the bottom youngest age – it goes back to what you
were talking about earlier on.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, yes we
are partners with NSFAS. It is not a matter of whether you want to
have a partnership or not. You are compelled by circumstances to
work closely with them because we do have military veterans or their
dependents who are in higher education. And, yes in our case we do
not have a military veteran or beneficiary who has not been
assisted.
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Of course, everyday you come across people saying fees have not been
paid, this an that have not been paid, and we listen and go back and
check what happened because at time the systems which are there
sometimes the administrative work which has to be done by the
Department of Military Veterans sometimes it falls short of our
expectation but if you come forward and say here is evident I am a
beneficiary and I need support, we provide support. We are obligated
by law to do that.
Regarding the age of the youngest military veteran, I am sorry, hon
member; I would not be able to provide that information but if the
Select committee or the joint standing committee so requires we may
present that information to them in terms of what we have in the
database.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister. They would
certainly not be 18 years old. That is actually what hon Khawula is
driving you to – they will not be 18 years old.
Question 29:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much
Chair. The matter is whether we have discussed our department‘s
budgetary challenges with the National Treasury. Yes Chair. We had a
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meeting which took place between me and a team together with the
Minister of Finance, to discuss all matters relevant to the budget
of the Department of Defence and the budget of the Department of
Military Veterans.
We discussed and shared with them our frustrations as a result of
the budget constraints we have, and of course out of that we then
put together a technical team consisting of people from National
Treasury and people from the Department of Defence who will now be
working continuously on matters of the budget because ours is a
reality. It is not something that is abstract. When we say we don‘t
have money to do a, we mean it. So we said it will be better if we
put together a technical team from both Finance and the Department
of Defence to discuss all of these matters and to engage on a
regular basis.
Of course there are certain proposals which National Treasury has
put forward to the Department of Defence. We are considering those
but what is important is that there is ongoing work being done.
There is a positive relationship between ourselves and them so that
when we hit problems they are aware of the problems.
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I am glad
to see that you acknowledge that the budget is not nearly sufficient
because that is most probably one of the biggest issues within the
department.
However, we have just entered ... well, a few months ago a new
Budget was tabled for the financial year and again the Defence
budget is way below the required two per cent. Now as you know, the
Defence Review requires at least two per cent of the gross domestic
product, GDP, to be budgeted for the department in order for us to
be able to barely try to implement the Defence Review.
My Question to you is the following. With the discussions that you
had with the Treasury, how do you plan to implement the Defence
Review, if despite the fact that you had discussions with them, they
still do not increase your budget up to two per cent of GDP? How do
we then envisage implementing this Defence Review because the way
it‘s carrying on, that‘s just a pipe dream?
Furthermore, would you agree that with the current status of our
budget, all forms of wasteful expenditure within the department
should be eradicated and stopped, and those monies be used for what
is actually necessary to at least keep the military afloat?
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I missed the last
one. All forms of?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Wasteful expenditure.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you. Chair, one
of the reasons why we decided to establish this technical task team
between Treasury and the department is for us to be able to work out
the modalities of mitigating the serious budgetary constraints we
have. Right?
The hon member goes on to say that the Defence Review is a pipe
dream. It‘s not. It‘s not. Yes, we are very anxious about this issue
of budgetary constraints but it can‘t be said that we will not be
able to realise a result ... a product of a long process of
consultations with various stakeholders in trying to improve our ...
Every country conducts a defence review. It costs a lot of money but
within Defence we have also decided ... In fact, as we start this
session one of the things that we will be doing is presenting to the
joint standing committee the progress made in implementing the plans
on the Defence Review which we presented to you last year. There are
areas in the Defence Review which do not necessarily require of us
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to spend money we do not have. There are areas ... there are things
which we can do quickly using the resources which we already have,
whilst there are ongoing negotiations with National Treasury to
assist us to get more money for the purpose of implementing this
Defence Review.
Hon member, you are also correct in saying that the Defence Review
has made a determination that we should get two per cent of the GDP.
It‘s our wish too. In fact, if you look at South Africa, I think in
the region we are a country that gets the smallest from the GDP. If
you look at some of the countries which are way smaller than us and
have smaller defence forces, they get much better than we are
getting.
So, with regard to milestone 1 of the Defence Review, we are now
looking at those areas which do not require us to spend money ...
those areas whose projects are within what we already have. We are
looking at prioritising within our programmes. We are also looking
at ... and we are discussing this matter ... we have presented it to
various structures. We are looking at ways of utilising the
resources we have to generate some form of income for the Defence
Review. For instance, the Defence Force is one of the biggest asset
owners in this country. We have land. How do you use that land to
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get the resources you require to effect this Defence Review? We are
looking at those things. Of course when we talk about that we are
not talking about sale or selling our assets. We are talking about
the leasing of assets for instance, so that we may generate the
necessary resources which we need.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Thank you Chair. Minister, could you please tell
us how much funding will be needed to upgrade strategic military
bases like Silvermine and 9 SA Infantry, where there have been huge
losses of equipment and weapons?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you Chair and
thanks hon member for the Question. Hon member, off the cuff I will
not be able to say how much we will need for that but I am happy to
present you with a response to your Question either in written form
or through the committee.
Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you Chairperson. Hon Minister, you said
something very profound at the beginning of our engagement. You said
that it‘s Parliament that can assist in ensuring that your budget
for your department is increased. My Question is as follows. In your
opinion, how could Parliament assist in that regard, other than via
the route of the select committee engaging and commenting on the
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budget and the targets that you have set for yourselves? I am asking
this Question because from the conceptualisation of the budget
Parliament is not part of the process and all the processes up until
the tail end when the budget is presented to the select committee to
make comments. However, at that stage we cannot change facts and
figures because it‘s at the tail end. So in your opinion, how could
Parliament assist in ensuring ... because we are sympathetic to the
situation. There isn‘t a single government department that should
not be given money according to what they need to execute their
mandate. However, I‘m just trying to find a space as to where do we
fit ourselves in to assist you early enough.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much
hon Chair and hon member Zwane. Firstly, I don‘t want to be
construed or seen to be mobilising members through this process for
me to get more money ... for us to get more money in the Defence
Force.
However, through the processes of Parliament, such as our
appearances before the portfolio committee, the select committee of
the NCOP and the joint standing committee in particular which brings
together these two committees, I think these are people who are
aware of our frustrations and our challenges, and we ...
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[Inaudible.] ... obviously that even through the Budget debate, as
it happened last year by the way, and all these years, you do
actually for once hear everybody speaking with one voice to the
Budget Vote, where people say the Defence Force needs more money.
I think ours is to be transparent with you and indicate the exact
areas where there is a shortfall. As the hon member raised earlier
on, where there is wasteful expenditure we should be able to explain
ourselves and account to Parliament because at the end of the day we
do rely on you for support to get the financial resources we need.
How Parliament will then engage with government or with National
Treasury on that is a matter which I would like to leave to
Parliament. I wouldn‘t want to be seen to be imposing to Parliament
and prescribing to Parliament how it should handle this particular
matter.
However, indeed you are correct hon Zwane. It is the view of all of
us that Parliament needs to be part of the processes right at an
early stage, other than going to Parliament and engaging on matters
which are presented by us from our side but without you having a say
on whether in fact the budget is adequate or not. It‘s a cry we have
made for ages. Parliament itself needs to discuss and agree with
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those who are handling these issues. At what stage do you bring in
Parliament and how should that process unfold? What happens now, as
you say, is that you do have an oversight role. You have to accept
what is given to you. You have to vote for us to get this money but
in fact whether you are happy with the amount allocated or not is
another matter.
So I think it‘s a matter which Parliament must discuss. How do you
engage National Treasury so that government departments are
allocated what they require?
Of course we do understand that there are financial constraints. We
do accept that there is no money. However, on the other hand I think
that it‘s an undesirable situation where you have people who have a
responsibility of being the last line of defence of the sovereignty
of the Republic of South Africa, yet being unable to do some of the
things they are required to do because of budgetary constraints. So
we will continue to make the appeal to Parliament but how Parliament
then takes up that issue is another matter.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you hon Chairperson. I‘m glad that the
Minister mentioned the select committee in her last reply because I
would like to extend a warm invitation to her to come and visit the
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select committee. I know that she has come to the Joint Standing
Committee on Defence on occasion.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, can I interject? You do
...
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, it pertains to her reply ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I interject? You do know that we do
not have a select committee on Defence?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: On Security and Justice. I beg your pardon.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, Defence matters are
supposed to be dealt with at the level of the NCOP only at the Joint
Standing Committee on Defence. I‘m saying this as a former
chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence. It shouldn‘t
be featuring at any select committee. Please continue.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you Chairperson. However, she has been
invited to the committee. Be that as it may, Chairperson and hon
Minister, in practice I think that we can acknowledge that the
question of the budget lies with your Cabinet colleague. Now, you
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have indicated that at this stage the military has enough funds to
at least implement those parts of the Defence Review that don‘t cost
a lot of money. However, in all honesty, if I were your Cabinet
colleague in Finance and you would‘ve said that we can proceed to do
our job without that increase of the budget, my question to you
would then be, is it really necessary that we increase your budget
if you can continue to do your job with the money that you have?
Yet, you and I both know that that increase is necessary, not to
prepare the country to go to war but to prepare the military to at
least fulfil its basic obligations.
Now, my Question to you is as follows. Once we have reached that
point where the Defence Review has been implemented, as you say to
such an extent where everything that doesn‘t cost money has been
implemented, and we come to a point where it actually starts to cost
a lot of money yet we still don‘t have the two per cent of the
Budget, what do we do then?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Firstly, I didn‘t say
that everything which does not require money has been done. I said
we have deliberately decided to select those areas which do not
require additional funds for implementation. Okay? It doesn‘t mean
that the process is over and complete. It is not.
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Secondly, if we were to say, well, we will sit and fold our arms
until such time as additional funding has been received I think you
will be the first one to criticise us because you would say but
there are things you could‘ve done in utilising, using and spending
the money which you already have. You would say so.
So the Defence Review report obliges us to do certain things and we
have started doing that which we can. Obviously, that is probably
half ... a fraction ... of what we are instructed to do through that
Defence Review process.
So you can‘t say that because there are negotiations underway you
therefore sit and fold your arms, and nothing will happen. Something
has to be done despite the fact that you have limited resources or
you have none at all. You still have to move and do something for
the sake of the SA National Defence Force. So, whilst that process
of the task team or the technical team which has been established
between ourselves and National Treasury is engaging in ensuring that
we find ways of mitigating these budgetary constraints, work needs
to be done. It has to be done and we continue to do that work.
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Now, one of the issues you actually raised much earlier is with
regard to the deployment of our ... [Inaudible.] I think that the
Defence Force has found creative ways of utilising the minimal
resources which we have. [Interjections.] It‘s laughable to you but
actually it‘s not. It‘s entertaining but it‘s not. It is scary. You
and I should be worried about it because clearly you do understand
the Defence Force ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister ... [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, from where I‘m
sitting I think the hon member actually has an appreciation of the
dire situation we find ourselves in. However, do you really want to
put the blame on the Defence Force because it has not received
adequate funding? Can you also therefore say that there is nothing
being done by the Defence Force because there is no money? No, you
have to find creative ways of ensuring that you do things with the
minimal resources which you have. That is what we are trying to do.
I have made a request. I think one of the chairs of the joint
standing committee is here in the NCOP. I have made a request that
we are ready to come and present to you just how far we have gone in
implementing the plan which we presented to you the last time. We
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will come and present to you and show you the areas. For instance
Chair, National Treasury would, amongst other things, want us to
have ... to retrench in a sense, approximately 4 000 warm bodies per
year ... a total of 4 000 over a period of approximately five to six
years. Can we afford that? We can‘t. We can‘t. You can‘t because as
much as they are saying you should reduce your compensation budget
... because when they talk about the compensation budget ... the
compensation of employees ... they are really talking about the
members of the SA National Defence Force. That is who we spend this
money on. Now, if that‘s what you are saying to the Defence Force,
effectively you are saying that the Defence Force should not meet
some of its obligations. Yet there are so many demands on the SA
National Defence Force.
That is why I‘m saying that, hopefully the establishment of this
task team and the intervention of the President who is the Commander
in Chief of the SA National Defence Force ... because he is also
concerned about the fact that the SA National Defence Force does not
have adequate funding to run the SA National Defence Force. So
hopefully through his intervention and through the establishment of
this joint task team by the two government departments we will have
a desirable outcome. It‘s a wish. Thank you.
Question 16:
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson and hon
members, this year being the centenary of the tragic sinking of the
SS Mendi, the Department of Defence hosted its annual Armed Forces
Day in honour of those who perished on the SS Mendi on 21 February
2017. The Armed Forces Day was also held on the same day, 21
February 2017 at which the President as the Commander in Chief and
the Patron in Chief, unveiled a Mendi memorial stone in Durban and
also laid a wreath on behalf of the people of South Africa.
The Department of Military Veterans, not only held a number of
memorial parades within the borders of the Republic of South Africa,
they also transported nine descendants of the SS Mendi and nine
military veterans to the United Kingdom, to participate in various
memorial services and wreath laying ceremonies in the UK.
A wreath laying service was held in three – that is number two now –
venues within the United Kingdom on Friday 17 February 2017. At the
Milton Cemetery where nine victims of the tragedy are buried, on
Monday 20 February, a formal service and wreath lying was held at
the Hollybrook Cemetery in Southampton where all members who
perished in the disaster without graves are honoured.
This ceremony was presided over by Minister G Radebe, the Minister
in the Presidency, on behalf of the Republic of South Africa and her
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Royal Highness, Princess Ann, on behalf of the United Kingdom. On
Tuesday 21 February 2017, a wreath lying ceremony was held over the
site where the SS Mendi sank on the helicopter deck of the SAS
Amatola.
During these wreath lying ceremonies, the descendants were afforded
the opportunity to lay wreaths on the graves at the memorial and at
the sea. On Saturday 25 February 2015, the City of Johannesburg held
a memorial service and wreath lying service for the men of the SS
Mendi at the Avalon Cemetery. This too was attended by the
descendants of the Mendi disaster.
On 26 February two memorial parades and wreath lying service were
held in Pretoria at Ga Mothakga Resort, Atteridgville and at the
University of Cape Town Lower Campus where the men lost on the SS
Mendi spent their last night in South Africa before boarding the
ship for France. These occasions were also graced by the descendants
of the victims, those we were able to trace and locate in South
Africa. Thank you, Chair.
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, let me thank the Minister, the Commander
in Chief, you and the government at large for honouring the heroes
of our country, more especially, after the sinking of the SS Mendi.
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Minister, don‘t you think – oh, let me put it in this way! – Are you
willing to do this in each and every year?
Also, don‘t you think this can be taken to our syllabus in schools,
so that our children can understand our history? I ask this
precisely because this tragedy was not exposed like what you did
this year with the Commander in Chief. What you did was a wonderful
thing. Therefore, I think that it will be a wise thing if you take
it up. My question therefore is: What is your plan for you to take
it up? Thank you very much, Minister.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, let me
thank the hon member for the question. I think that one of the
things that we need to clearly articulate and always hamper on, is
the fact that what happened on 21 February on the very armed forces
there itself, is that 21 February was declared the Armed Forces Day
in honour of those who perished on that day.
So, for me, I think that it is one profound manner in which the
government is honouring those who perished on that day. But on the
matter of education, well, I think that it is a concern for many
people and fortunately, the Minister of Basic Education is sitting
right next to me here, that in the syllabus that is taught to our
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young people, there are many aspects of our history in South Africa,
which are missing.
You know, I‘ll just talk about small things like the following: For
example, sometimes you would talk to a child who is in matric about
the Rivonia Trial, only to find out that the child cannot identify
with the Rivonia Trial. He or she has no clue what the Rivonia Trial
is all about? So, sometimes when the children talk about the likes
of Madiba himself, for them, his history starts only in 1994. Do you
get my point? Yet, this freedom is about what the people of South
Africa fought for.
So, the part of history which our young people need to be taught, is
the part of history which needs to be instilled in their minds. I
believe that this will also help to instil a spirit of patriotism to
all the South Africans. We should therefore talk about the
experiences of the past; where we come from and even how those men
landed on that ship, the Mendi.
They should also be taught what they were going to fight for and how
they were recruited to go across the ocean to engage in the war.
Unfortunately, those are some of the things that are missing in our
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history. Having said that, I think that it is because South Africa
is a new democracy where we learn about this every day.
Even every time we have the Armed Forces Day on the 21st, we invite
young people to come and engage with us. We talk to them about this
tragic of the SS Mendi. When we do that, we pick up during the
interaction that in the first instance, they don‘t even know that
the reason why the armed forces was declared on 21 February is
because we are honouring those who died on the ship on that day.
So, I think that the interaction helps us to understand and have an
appreciation of where we fall short in terms of our own education. I
therefore believe that, every day we take baby steps, it‘s time that
we notice that there is a weakness in a particular area. Of course,
it is then that the Department of Basic Education will take those
matters into consideration in developing its syllabus.
I did make mention of the fact that, sometimes if for instance we
talk to our young people about somebody who have passed on. When you
ask them if they know who has passed on, they then answer that
they‘ve just heard from the TV or Facebook that a certain guy has
died. When they are told that the person is not a guy but a leader
and then you take the young person through that person‘s history,
they learn.
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For instance, for me the death of the late Kathy Kathrada, was a
serious eye-opener. It made me realise that our young people have no
appreciation or knowledge of some of the things that happened in
this country for us to be calling some of these people our heroes
and leaders.
So, I am just saying that the whole area of the history of South
Africa, fortunately the Minister of Arts and Culture who deals with
some of these matters is also here. These are some of the things we
are aware of; some of the shortcomings we have identified and we
need to do something about it.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you hon Chairperson. I am earning my money
today. I first want to say to the Minister, I applaud the efforts
made in honouring those who died on the SS Mendi. As a country, you
can never do enough to commemorate and to remember those who risked
their lives for the country and for freedom.
However, there is one commemoration that you did not make mention
of, and I suspect it is because it never actually materialised, and
that is the one in February that happened in Port Elizabeth which
has caused that city millions of rands and have left family members
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and friends frustrated as the cancellation was made on the eleventh
hour.
Surely, your department knew of the logistical constraints when the
planning was taking place. Will the department reimburse the Nelson
Mandela Municipality for these wasteful expenditures as the money
could have been used to provide basic services to the people of Port
Elizabeth? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much.
Chairperson, hon member I think we were doing well so far. So far so
good and I think on that note I would not want to go into this
matter. For it is... No, no, no, because it had nothing to do with
us. For instance, the requirement and the proposal now is that we
should as the department refund the Nelson Mandela Metro. I am not
aware of how much Nelson Mandela Metro spent for that event and I am
not even aware of the circumstances under which that event was
cancelled.
The circumstances under which - well you are saying my department;
but I am saying all of these events - we have partnered with some of
them and they were organised by the various municipalities and by
different stakeholders. For instance the one here in Cape Town, had
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nothing to do with the municipality; it had to do with some
stakeholders, I think the Legend. Something like that, I have
forgotten the name; the Legend (African Legend). Something like
that.
Where we are invited to come and help, we come in and partner,
because it is not about who is charge in that area; it is about
being South African and our obligations as South Africans. Thank you
very much.
Ms B T ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chairperson and hon Minister, with regards
to this event that was missed in Port Elizabeth, will you give us an
undertaking today to investigate why your department did not attend
the event, and will you then give an undertaking to this House that
you will the refund the municipality for the money that was wasted
as this can be used and the DA can use it very effectively for other
services needed by the people in the city? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair and the hon
member, yes, I will do the investigation. But what I will not commit
to do is refunding the money, because I do not even know what the
circumstances were and I do not even know how much was spent. So,
that investigation is what will make a determination as to whether
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we owe the Nelson Mandela Metro or not. Thank you. If needs be, we
will appear before you and give you that report. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you Minister. You will appear
before the Joint Standing Committee on Defence. The hon Mhlanga, you
are the last on this question.
Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, I think the answers that are forwarded by the
Minister are ... [Inaudible.] ... They are so beautiful that we
must, of course... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Andikuva, Tata.] I do hear you, Sir.
Come closer to the mic.
Mr M T MHLANGA: I am saying the responses that are given to us by
the Minister, we welcome them and they are so ...[Inaudible.]
However, Chair, perhaps my follow-up question in this regard –
perhaps before I will directly ask the question, I just want to
raise this with the Minister that all these events that are said to
be unveiled for military veterans, the department should take charge
of.
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For example, in the Western Cape, there were houses that were handed
over and those houses were directly for military veterans, but they
were claimed by the province that are being developed and given to
military veterans by the Western Cape government. I think the
Minister should respond on that. Of course, let me go to my
question. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mhlanga, are you still on the SS
Mendi? [Interjections.]
Mr M T MHLANGA: Madam Chair, let me go directly to my question. Hon
Minister, with regards to the SS Mendi, well perhaps we do not have
much information, but I should think we will be assisted by you with
regards to those family members that are still alive. What is it
that is done by the department in terms of compensation? In that
case, I also want to intertwine this question with regards to
military compensation for war veterans or struggle veterans who
participated in liberating South Africa. What is their status quo
with regards to compensation? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, there is a new question
on compensation which the hon Mhlanga is smuggling in. It is up to
you to respond.
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much
hon Chair. I thought you were precisely closing it because he was
really trying his luck. He smuggled that question. Thank you Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mapisa-Nqakula, thank you very
much. [Applause.] As we started at the beginning we knew that you
had official business. We also know that you are travelling today,
again on official business. We thank you very much Ma‘m for availing
yourself. Thank you.
Question 10:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, let
me use the opportunity to thank you for your indulgence by allowing
us to respond to the questions today that we couldn‘t respond to the
last time as a result of being in hospital ICU due to heart failure
battle. I would like to thank all the people who gave support during
that time.
Let me start by indicating that, yes indeed, the Department of
Justice and Correctional Services has a range of programmes, which
in large measure are calculated by two critical objectives, namely;
addressing offending behaviour on the part of inmates and empowering
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inmates with relevant skills that would enable them to find it
easier to reintegrate back into society and to make a meaningful
contribution for their own good and for society in general.
I should maybe also take the opportunity to indicate that one way in
which we are able to assess the impact of our interventions is by
looking at the extent to which, for example, those who are on parole
or on community corrections comply with parole conditions. I am
happy to say that over the past three years, there has been a
significant improvement in this regard. When we started, about 85%
to 86% of such inmates complied with parole conditions. Currently,
we are talking of compliance in the region of 97% to 98%.
One of the interventions we have introduced is to ensure that
victim-offender dialogue takes place in all cases unless of course a
victim is not amenable and to ensure that there is an attempt to
reconcile where possible, the perpetrator and the victim to smooth
reintegration.
We also assess through risk assessment tools to determine the risk
profile of an offender, such as looking at reports of psychologists
and social workers in order to make sense of what are the prospects
upon releasing an inmate of them going back to their reoffending
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behaviour. These are some of the interventions that have enabled us
to significantly reduce noncompliance with parole conditions.
In so far as the programmes themselves are concerned, let me
immediately appreciation to all departments and other NGOs for
partnering with in respect of a number of areas of implementation of
various programmes, such as, for example; the Department of Basic
Education, that ensures that we are able to deliver basic education
to those that need it within our correctional facilities; the
Department of Higher Education, which over and above assisting in
facilitating access to higher education for our offenders also
assists with the accreditation of some of our training programmes so
that inmates are able to leave with certificates that are recognised
so that they are able to seek employment.
Let me touch a bit on the issue of criminal records, which many exoffenders have complained about as one of the barriers that makes it
difficult for them to reintegrate. It‘s a call that we make to
potential employers out there that, the fact that a person has a
criminal record, ordinarily; unless there are expressed legal
barriers to that effect should not serve as a barrier for a person
to be employed. It all should depend on the nature of the offense
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and how the person has responded to rehabilitation and the nature of
a job they seek to take up.
We should however, indicate that the participation of a number of
NGOs and corporations, in some instances, who have been able to
successfully reintegrate many ex-offenders by empowering them
through education and other means, many of them have reached high
levels of qualifications and competency that has enabled them to
effectively play a meaningful role in society upon leaving our
facilities. Thank you very much.
Mr M T MHLANGA: Chairperson, we again welcome the response of the
Minister. My follow up question would be on the issue of
reintegration of ex-offenders to society, mainly, on issues of
socioeconomic empowerment: What programmes does the department have
in that regard? The socioeconomic empowerment of ex-offenders who
are thoroughly trained by the department as alluded to by the
Minister with regard to self employment, business opportunities as
well as job placements because it doesn‘t assist us to have trained
these people and not ensure that they are properly employed in one
way or the other regardless of the barriers that the Minister has
already highlighted. Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, let
me indicate that the focus of the department hitherto with regard to
its policies has been more inward looking – looking at what are the
needs of offenders during incarceration and the provision of
training, access to education opportunities, etc, has been in
respect of those offenders who are currently serving terms with us.
The idea was to prepare them during their stint with us in
anticipation that at some point, whether upon completion of a
sentence or placement on community corrections or parole, they would
be out there, needing the skills and the preparation that we shall
have invested in them during said period.
There is a growing sentiment that that is not adequate. The
environment in a correctional facility is different to the
environment that the offender, who, in some instances may have spent
20 years, which could effectively be a lifetime, some offenders have
to be trained to do basic things such as crossing a street because
they would have been incarcerated at a time when there were no
robots in their home town – avoiding the risk of being knocked down
by cars. It is the things that we take for granted. Some may have
been incarcerated prior to the digital age and as we know, the world
has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. Some went into
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incarceration during the days of apartheid and today, South Africa
is a completely different world.
We target in terms of the sentence planned, the needs of an offender
with regard to the programmes that are tailor-made to the offender,
be they addressing offending behaviour or skilling the offender
whilst they are in incarceration. The thinking going forward and in
partnership with other departments and NGOs especially is to look at
programmes beyond incarceration that could further strengthen our
efforts to ensure full integration into society. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I am sure the hon Minister would agree
with me that rehabilitation is the most important aspect of
correctional services. Without rehabilitation, there is no point in
correctional services. There is no point in having people after they
have served their sentences, go out and be criminals with doctorate
degrees. They need to be able to be reintegrated into our society
and contribute as law abiding citizens. Now, as you have said,
rehabilitation has received a little bit more attention over the
last three years but as the situation is currently, it is still a
drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the budget. My question to
you is: At what stage can we expect proper rehabilitation – the core
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of what correctional services should be about, to be at the
forefront of the department‘s agenda again?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: It is indeed true
that over the past two decades, the department has struggled to make
the necessary budgetary shifts in line with the priority shifts
based on a shift in policy and perspective as you have correctly
identified and of course as articulated in our policies, such as the
White Paper and the current Corrections Act.
The reality is that we have a Constitution and international
obligation to ensure that the wellbeing of inmates and I think the
question that follows will elaborate this even further, is of
paramount importance. Such rights as nutritional rights of inmates
being kept in humane conditions and ensuring that the norms and
standards that are set by our law and international standards are
complied with is paramount and that costs money.
I know some people go so far as to say that the quality of meals you
get at a correctional facility make you wonder whether it is not an
incentive for people to want to offend again in order to stay in our
correctional facilities. I may just tell you, Chairperson, that when
the time comes, there is no single inmate who shows any inclination
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to spend another day in a correctional facility regardless of the
favourable conditions we try to maintain in our facilities. However,
it is true that with the overcrowded conditions that we continue to
battle with and resource constraints that we have including issues
of human resource capacity constraints, we are not in all instances
able to fully provide all the necessary interventions to
rehabilitation and other means to ensure that inmates emerge out of
our system as better people that they should.
As I said earlier, if you look at the statistics, it seems as if we
must be doing something right somewhere if compliance has improved
from the erstwhile 85% to 86% compliance to the current figures
between 97% and 98% and beyond with regard to compliance with parole
conditions. That includes a reduction in reoffending amongst exoffenders who are on parole or in community correction programmes.
Thank you.
Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Minister, we do have a problem of parolees that
commit repeated offenses. They are released by parole, they go back
to the communities, and they get reintegrated but repeat the
offenses and go back in. My question hon Minister is: What
mechanisms are there to ensure that there is monitoring after their
release to ensure that they adhere to parole conditions and also if
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the hon Minister could comment on the effectiveness of corrections?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Before we release
an inmate into a parole programme or community corrections, there is
stringent scrutiny that takes place. We start with the profile of
the offender, which is a file on the offender that details all the
history from the day the offender arrives. One of the critical
documents in that file is the sentence remarks of the presiding
officer who convicted that offender and that‘s where we can draw a
lot of valuable information about the offender and the nature of the
offense, etc. We then generate a sentence plan for that offender,
which outlines the tailor-made programme for that offender for the
duration of their stint in prison that seeks to address some of the
challenges or the circumstances of that specific offender as I
alluded earlier.
If an offender, for example, is serving life, generally after 20
years they are entitled to be considered for parole. And the manner
of it is that a committee at a correctional centre compiles that
profile that outlines all the elements that needs to go into
assisting a parole board to determine whether an inmate is suitable
for parole and that would include reports on psychosocial behaviour
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of the offender during incarceration and how they have responded to
rehabilitation etc, which also assists in determining the risk
profile of an offender, which the parole board takes into
consideration as one of the considerations that must determine
whether they should recommend their release. If it‘s a lifer it goes
to the National Council of Correctional Services that is headed by
three judges, who in turn also evaluate and recommends. And again if
it‘s a lifer, I, ultimately have to make a decision whether that
life should be released or not.
I can tell you now that virtually every week, we are taken to court
for refusing to grant parole, and of course last week you would note
that we had the famous or notorious case of a certain Mr Janusz
Walus, where the court is requiring us to return with certain
further heads of argument, arguing against his release.
So, it happens all the time that any offender, like I said doesn‘t
want to spend another day in prison and they will do everything in
their power to challenge any decision not to be released. We make
sure that where offenders deserve to be considered to be released on
parole, we do so as soon as possible and where we have doubts, we
make sure that that doubt is first removed before we can grant
parole. Thank you.
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Mr M RAYI: Chairperson, my question on rehabilitation and
integration to society. My understanding is that the reason why the
department was called correctional services and not department of
prison was for correcting the behaviour of offenders. Once the
behaviour has been corrected, then they are easily integrated into
society. It looks like the integration has some limits, for example,
if a person acquires the skills and education but when the same
person gets to society and has to apply for a job, their criminal
record becomes a hindrance for them to be employed. Even here in
Parliament, for example, a person who has been an offender and such
behaviour was corrected, they cannot be a Member of Parliament. The
law prevents that person if I am not mistaken from becoming a Member
of Parliament. For me, therefore, there is a limitation to the
integration of ex-offenders. I would like the Minister‘s respond to
that. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The issue of
whether we still need a criminal records system in our dispensation,
how fair it is, etc, has been the subject of a lot of debate over a
long period of time. Let me indicate that my understanding is that,
globally there is a general system of criminal records which you
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find in most countries in the world. So, South Africa is not unique
in this regard.
There are two ways in which criminal records can be expunged. If it
is a minor offense, for example, that involved a fine and there was
no element of incarceration, a criminal record is expunged
administratively upon making such a request upon the expiry of 10
years.
So, wherever there has been a conviction by a court, because the
only time you have committed an offense under our system is if a
court finds you guilty of an offense. Otherwise, any other serious
offenses can only qualify for expunging of the criminal record or
the deletion of the criminal record by the President in terms of
section 84 of the Constitution, which is an exclusive competence
that the President enjoys.
We receive such these applications on a daily basis. We assess them
in terms of merit taking into account a number of factors, which
time will not allow me to elaborate on and as justice; we recommend
to the President whether to grant or to refuse and ultimately the
authority under the Constitution of the President to grant or to
refuse.
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Let me indicate that even with the example of Members of Parliament
you have given; the mere fact that you have a criminal record as a
candidate for Parliament or municipality is not an automatic bar
from you to contesting for candidacy to come to Parliament. It is
only if your conviction complies with certain conditions, such as
incarceration for longer than 12 months without the option of a fine
... I can‘t remember other criteria. It is not necessarily so that
the mere fact ... but then again, as I indicated, there is a
possibility to apply for Presidential pardon under the Constitution.
Many applications are received daily and maybe one day I can talk
more about a special programme that was sought to be introduced to
deal with political offenses of the past and where we are with the
process but time wouldn‘t allow me to deal with that specific
question at this point in time. It is safe to say that it is not
necessarily so that employers are obligated by law in all instances
to refuse people employment just because of a criminal record,
especially if they disclose that fact and discretion should take
into account the nature of the offense, the nature of the job
applied for, etc.
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I can conclude by saying I have served on the Magistrate‘s
Commission and on the Judicial Services Commission, there has been
consideration, especially with regard to minor offenses, of
candidates who still had criminal records but because they have
disclosed and taking into account the nature of the offense, when it
was committed – those people who were appointed into those offices.
Thank you.
Question 27:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, let
me on the onset indicate that the rights of inmates are wide and
diverse bearing in mind that, like all other human beings,
ordinarily they enjoy all the rights that everyone has, be it under
the Constitution and the law they would enjoy, safe for those rights
that are curtailed as a result of incineration by virtue of judicial
sanction upon conviction of a criminal offence. Therefore, because
of the wide range in nature of the rights we are talking about,
equally, those that have a responsibility of ensuring that those
rights are honoured effectively entailed virtually everybody that
works with offenders. It may even extend to persons who are outside
the correctional systems to the extent that the Constitution and the
law obligate them to honour such rights.
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To be more specifically, of course, the correctional centres where
inmates are kept have persons who head them and they have first and
foremost an obligation to ensure that they run those centres in a
manner that conforms to the norms and standards, set laws and our
policies in ensuring amongst others that these rights of inmates are
honoured. But over and above that, it also includes the individual
officials of corrections working in those centres depending on the
circumstances.
Over and above that, firstly, internally within the management
system of corrections, I refer to the heads of centres, there are
area managers, regional commissioners and chief deputy commissioners
responsible for different areas. Notably, the chief deputy
commissioners are responsible for incarceration, responsible for
what goes on generally in our correctional centres, responsible for
remand detention, responsible for the general effective running of
correctional facilities and have the responsibility to ensure that
these norms and standards are adhered to.
We work in partnership with other stakeholders in this regard. There
is a statutory body which is independent and is currently headed by
a retired judge of the Constitutional Court, Justice Johann van der
Westhuizen, who heads a structure called the Judicial Inspectorate
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for Correctional Services, Jics, which has unfretted access to
inmates ensuring that where they have complains those complains
could be entertained and dealt with and generally the wellbeing of
in mates.
Let me also indicate that since May last, when the Public Service
Commission issued a report on the conditions in our facilities
including issue of overcrowding, access to health care, nutrition,
etc, the national commissioner of corrections set up a task team
involving management at national and regional level to look into the
specific concerns that have been raised which were further
reiterated following the judicial visits by two or more justices of
the Constitutional Court. Of course, you know the case on Pollsmoor
Prison that we dealt with in December last year, which gave certain
directives which we are confident we would have fully complied with
in respect of that facility by the deadline of next month. Thank
you, Chairperson
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson and hon Minister, surely, you will
agree with me that as the political head of the department to a
certain extent the buck stops with you. You, as the Minister need to
know what is going on with correctional facilities especially when
it comes to something as important as human rights violations. I
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haven‘t yet said that there are such instances, but should they be
found to occur, surely, to some extent as political head of the
department the buck stops with you.
Minister, your deputy has visited Pollsmoor Prison with us. However,
the findings of the Cameron's reports which I shall not repeat here
indicate instances which I find close to what can be called human
rights violations. I don‘t want to focus only on Pollsmoor Prison
because my question is not about that. It has come to light that the
conditions at correctional facilities elsewhere in the country do
not look much better.
Would you as the political head of this department take full
responsibility if an independent body is to find that inmates‘ basic
human rights are indeed violated in any correctional facility in
this country? Chairperson, it takes a very short answer to reply to
this question. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I have already
been called before the Western Cape High Court in December last
year, in respect of the conditions in the Pollsmoor Prison. As you
will recall on 5 December, a nicer rule was issued on a return date
of 21 December, which show course that the earlier interim order
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should not be made final by the court. As a result of further
affidavits that were submitted to the court, the court effectively
agreed to what you could refer to as a draft judgement which we
prepared for the court in which we clearly outlined the
interventions we would be making and time frames which we would be
able to meet those targets in conforming to the court order in
respect of the conditions that were not desirable, those that the
court has identified in respect of that facility.
One way of addressing the issue of overcrowding which was at the
core of the problem, was to convert Pollsmoor Prison altogether into
a detention facility or a remand detention facility and remove all
sentenced inmates out of that facility by moving them elsewhere
within the Western Cape jurisdiction in order to meet the 160%
overcrowding target which we eventually agreed with the court as
opposed to, I think, between 200% and 300% of overcrowding which
prevailed at the time. I ca also report that based on the report
that I have received from the department, the hot water boilers that
were dysfunctional, which resulted in inmates not having adequate
access to hot water, have since been fully resolved to such that
every inmate has now full access to hot water.
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The issue of laundry facilities as a result of the breakdown of some
of the big laundry machines has also been resolved to such that
inmates are able to be provided on regular basis in terms of the
norms an standards of the department with clean blankets which was
the factor that was affecting their health and things like skin
diseases, tec.
There are a number of other interventions that have been made. Of
course, there is still a challenge of overcrowding which stands at
about 137% nationally, which is much lower in your more remote areas
and much higher in your more densely concentrated areas like urban
centres. It is a challenge of addressing infrastructure on the one
hand and on the other ensuring that through the fora which the Chief
Justice chairs, for example, the National Efficiency Enhancement
Committee, NECC, and the provincial versions therefore that are
headed by judge presidents, monitor the speedy resolution of the
finalisation of criminal matters. Through these efficiency
enhancement efforts we are able to ensure that the turnaround time
for people awaiting trial is reduced so that people do not spend too
much time with us awaiting their matters to be resolved. These are
just some of the different strategies that we are implementing in an
integrated manner to ensure that we reduce overcrowding whilst at
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the same time we improve the conditions under which inmates are kept
in our facilities. Thank you.
Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Minister, in ensuring that the department adheres
to the norms and standards, is it possible to simplify it for us in
terms of percentage per annum - the challenge of basic inmates‘
rights violation? If you can share a percentage per annum what is
the current situation?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, it
is a specific question. Let me indicate that we present to
Parliament annual performance plans. In these annual performance
plans, we set target or indicators which we monitor on a monthly
basis. These are wide ranging in that they focus on a number of
aspects that impact on amongst others issues that relate directly to
the wellbeing of inmates and ensuring that there is compliance with
human rights. Such indicators that are monitored in the annual
performance plans, for example, include overcrowding levels per
centre nationally and not only at the national average, but looking
at the hot spots therefore enabling us to identify strategies.
I think hon Nyambi is from Mpumalanga. There is Barberton new
correctional facility as well as significance expansion that will be
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coming on stream. Soon we will be opening Tzaneen which had hiccups
as a new facility destined to house about 418. So, there is work
that is ongoing to expand infrastructure and to fix existing
infrastructure.
Of course, among other things we are looking at using offender
labour in the face of the challenges with the Public Works whilst at
the same time we use the opportunity as part of empowering such
offenders with various skills in the construction environment. These
are the plans going forward. We monitor natural deaths, we monitor
assaults, assessment of sentence planning to ensure that these
sentence plans are actually implemented in respect of individual
offences and we are able to draw percentages in terms of performance
as we go along. So, there are assessment and monitoring tools to
ensure that we keep ourselves informed of how we are progressing
with the implementation using the annual performance plans, APPs,
and monthly reporting that I alluded to. Thank you very much.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chairperson, in appreciating your response to the
question by the hon member, you mentioned that there is a commission
that is responsible for monitoring the safety and protection of the
violation rights of the inmates. What I am interested to know is how
often are they reporting to the department, and are these meetings
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open for members of the public? It would be interesting to hear
their findings. I am sure that they are about to assist the
department in ensuring that they comply with the legislative mandate
they have of ensuring that the rights and dignity of inmates are
protected and also that they are treated humanely inside there.
Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, the
Judicial Inspectorate, as I have indicated, is currently headed by
the retired Judge of the Constitutional Court, Justice Van der
Westhuizen and it has infrastructure, if you like, persons at our
various correctional centres through individual officials who have
unlimited access to our correctional facilities. They are able to
entertain complains from inmates. That is over and above the rights
of inmates to lodge complains with heads of correctional facilities.
In terms of our code, when such complains are laid, they must be
produced to writing and put into a register and of course ideally
resolved within a week or escalated as the need may be. I may just
deflected at it and say some of us, almost on a 24 hour basis, get
calls, SMSs
and Whatsapps complains on various matters which we
also channel accordingly. We have also asked the department to start
looking at some centralised mechanisms through which especially
members of the public or even inmates can phone in and lodge a
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complain. But currently the system is such that an inmate has full
access to the Judicial Inspectorate. They have full access to the
head of the facility if they have a complain to lodge. Over and
above that members of the judiciary and magistrates have the right
to unannounced visit any facility and document any instances of
human rights abuse.
The reports that Jics produces in terms of law are tabled with
Parliament annually. Members of Parliament have full access to such
reports and as part of the oversight function of this august House
we may be directed, rising out of such findings, to any further
intervention that we may need to implement on our part to address
any concern that may have been raised. I think I will leave it there
for now.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, in my initial question I had such
good intentions to indicate that my question is not on Pollsmoor
Prison and the Minister gave us a whole running commentary on the
good things that they have been doing at Pollsmoor
Prison since
they have been taken to court.
My question is on what the Minister replied to that question and
that pertains to the overcrowding which also goes to the rights of
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the inmates where the Minister said that some of those inmates have
been moved to other facilities within the jurisdiction of the
Western Cape. Minister, I don‘t completely agree with that. In my
own constituency, the Wynberg correctional facility has received a
few inmates from the Western Cape which I suspect might be for the
reason of dealing with overcrowding here. They have been moved all
the way a thousand kilometres away to the Free State.
My question is, also as part of their rights, inmates have to be
visited by their families. Most of those families are not going to
be able to afford visiting their relatives a thousand kilometres
away. So here you are dealing with one right of moving them
somewhere else and another right is being is being violated in the
process. How do you envisage that your department is going to deal
with that specific problem arising from moving the inmates? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I do not have the
specific facts and obviously the circumstances would assist us to
better assess that particular situation. Let me indicate that this
can be the basis for a complain that an inmates can lodge if indeed
they feel that their rights have been violated or they have not been
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enabled to fully exercise such rights as a result of such
intervention.
Let me indicate also that this is just one of the many things that
inmates can lodge complains about. We have complains such as inmates
indicating that the facilities they have been deployed to are not
conducive for them to pursue their studies because of the conditions
of the environment. There are a whole lot of personal circumstances
that can lead to an inmate requesting that some kind of adjustment
be made to take care of their needs or issues of the disability,
etc. The rule is that the department must assess each case on its
merit and on the basis of that find the most practical and
convenient solution to that particular problems.
It may well be that there has been other cases. Bear in mind that
sometimes we find that an inmate has committed offences all over the
place, got convicted in a particular area and sentenced to that
area, but their original home may be thousands of kilometres away.
It may well be that somebody who was in the Western Cape has
actually benefited from being moved to the Free State or elsewhere.
But like I say speculations wouldn‘t take us far. It would be better
to entertain such complains on its merits and look at what are the
practical solutions that could be found to suit both the unique
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circumstances of the inmate in one hand and the practicalities of
the department. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister Masutha, we thank you for
coming. We are aware that you have challenges with your health. We
hope that you feel better and recover. Those were the few
outstanding questions for you today. Thank you very much.
Question 78:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I would like to thank
the member who asked the question. Well, firstly we are aware as the
Department of Arts and Culture of the plans to erect a monument in
honour of the President of the Republic of South Africa in the North
West. We are aware of that. But really, the question of the budget
does not arise because it is a provincial initiative. The people who
would best answer that kind of a question would be the province of
the North West. The promotion and development of arts and culture is
a concurrent function of the competence of the province and
national. To that extent, I would say that the details therefore,
would be that the province of the North West is best positioned to
give details to that. Thank you very much.
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Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, honestly I am a bit disappointed. This
is the National Council of Provinces and we are allowed to even ask
questions of local governance here. This is a provincial question.
The Minister had ample time to send the question to the province so
as to answer us in the NCOP. I don‘t accept that answer. This is an
excuse of not answering the question. The Minister did not get this
question this morning. He had ample time to go to the province and
seek an answer. It is about the arts and culture in the province. It
does not mean that he is the Minister of Arts and Culture of a
national sphere. What else is he doing? There is arts and culture on
the ground. So, the Minister must answer this question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, concurrence means just
that. It means that the national department has certain
responsibilities. It also means that the provincial MEC has certain
responsibilities. It also talks to the demarcation of
responsibilities even within. So, where there is concurrence of
powers a national Minister cannot wilfully as he or she likes come
in to a province and whatever. I think that we should accept that
the Minister is actually doing what we expect him to do. It is for
the National Council of Province to take the battle where it is.
Nothing stops you from asking that question to the province to give
you the answer. Now, the Minister could have asked the MEC to give
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the details, but the Minister would not have been able to explain
why the budgets and whatever, ... because it is not his doing.
Minister, we have raised the issues of concurrence. I think when we
turned 10 years some of us we felt that South Africa needs to come
back and deal with concurrence in arts and culture, health and basic
education because it does give us that programme. So, in a way, the
Minister is right. You are frustrated, but you must also know who
does what.
Hon members, earlier on I was not being funny when I said we as the
NCOP interact with the defence via the Joint Standing Committee.
That simply talks to the competence. The national competency does
not have a provincial jurisdiction and therefore, the way we will
relate is that ... I think that we need to do what we need to do
more, invite the MECs either, to portfolio committees and select
committees or even to the House to take certain questions. But,
Minister you may or may not continue to hazard a response on this
one.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Exactly what I wanted to say hon
Chair. Especially, schedule four of the Constitution is very clear
on what you have said. Thank you very much.
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Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, it appears that the hon Minister did his
homework on this issue. I would like to thank him for that. Now, can
I then get the Minister‘s and the department‘s policy on the
erection of monuments for people who are still alive?
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, this is a new question hon
Chair, [Interjections.] ... No, it is. You are asking something
else. It is about the erection of monuments on people who are alive.
What we have in the question here there is nothing to do with people
who are alive or dead. There was a specific question about a
specific place on the statue. Thank you.
Business suspended at 13:01.
BUSINESS SUSPENDED AT 13:01 AND RESUMED AT 13:50
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, the continuation
of what we have been doing since this morning of today; the hon
Minister Mthethwa has already dealt with the first question. So, the
second question is the one coming from hon Moshodi who is in the
House.
Question 123:
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thanks Chair and thanks to the
question by the hon member. There are about 10 programmes initiated
by the department which I will list below: The first is the youth
and social cohesion, social compact, the Department of Arts and
Culture-led project or initiative:
In 2016, as the Minister of Arts and Culture, I hosted initial
multisectoral consultation as a way to gather general consensus on
the need to engage the sectors in the development of a social
compact. The social compact is a social contract to be collectively
negotiated and agreed to by the various sectors of South African
society.
Upon the initial multi-sector consultation, it became apparent that
there needs to be sector-specific consultations. The youth sector
was identified as an important sector with whom to engage on the
question around the social compact. In terms of this youth is
expected to commit to practical measures in dealing with the scourge
of racism, which continues to circumscribe real life experience of
many in this country.
Secondly, the youth dialogues and public discussions on national
days, again, this is led by the department and has created the youth
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dialogues that are specifically looking at the role of the young
people on the importance of national days, for example, Human Rights
Day, Freedom Day, Youth Day, Women‘s Day, Heritage Day and
Reconciliation Day.
These dialogues are often in a form of public discussions on each of
the national days. The Department of Arts and Culture, DAC, further
hosts Youth Day in conjunction with National Youth Development
Agency, NYDA, and the Presidency; the DAC has its own youth month
programme that sharpens awareness of Youth Day, run by its youth
section.
Thirdly, the social cohesion youth advocates, again a DAC–led
project and here I appointed social cohesion advocates, whose
Chairperson is Judge Yvonne Mokgoro, and among them there are
specifically Social Cohesion Youth Advocates. These Social Cohesion
Youth Advocates make social cohesion issues exciting and accessible
to young people. Their programme includes direct interaction with
young people during their self-initiated projects or events.
That programme is a Young Patriots Programme. The Young Patriots
Programme is a new major youth development platform initiated by the
Ministry. The Young Patriots Programme is in line with the National
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Development Plan Vision 2030, and supports the National Youth Policy
2015–20, specifically in relation to lack of access to culture and
on social and nation-building by young people. The Young Patriots
Programme has been established as a national youth service programme
of the department.
The fifth one is the skills development through bursaries; again,
this is led by the department. The Department of Arts and Culture
also offers bursaries in the areas that are about cultural
reclamation, that promote and contribute to changing the historic
landscape of South Africa and ultimately promote social cohesion.
These bursaries are offered in the heritage sector, that is, Museums
as reflectors of history, and Language Services, a promotion of all
language usage.
The sixth programme is the women in the arts workshop. The main
purpose of this programme is to empower and assert the position of
women in the arts within the socioeconomic participation while
gender becomes a strong force in building a cohesive and
generational poverty free South Africa. The focus of the event is
based on the women, especially young women understanding and
sustaining their business and also taking responsibility of their
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finances as entrepreneurs. This programme empowers women in terms of
business planning and management and investment.
The seventh programme is the intergenerational clan names programme.
The programme affords older persons the prospect to impart their
knowledge to the younger generation. The learners are empowered with
interviewing, writing and presenting skills. The Oral History
Conference is a platform for young persons to recite their family
clan names and to present research papers in order to enhance the
learner‘s public speaking skills and also create awareness about the
learner‘s family heritage and the South African heritage at large.
The eighth one is the legends unite for change. This programme is a
campaign against gender-based violence which focuses on
disadvantaged communities, for example, Alexandra. The campaign is
divided into four phases, Phase 1: Research and Identifying the
problem, Phase 2: Upliftment workshops, Phase 3: New experience in
their own back yard and Phase 4: Documenting the entire journey with
interviews and reports.
The focus last year was on inspiring the community using performance
as a driving force. We also partnered with young and old Legends
such as Ray Phiri and Thabo Cornet Mamabolo to motivate and inspire
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the youth. What was also important was to identify young legends who
can continue the work that was started in their community as part of
the programme for, unite to end violence against women and children.
The ninth programme is in Limpopo - the Limpopo Merit Awards.
The purpose of this programme is to offer children and youth the
platforms to express themselves and also to build their self-esteem
through the arts. The programme promotes nation-building and social
cohesion. Children are presented with dance classes, music and drama
classes with the aim of developing a children‘s band. Currently two
children‘s Band had been developing, and will be given an
opportunity to perform at events in the province.
The tenth programme is Omama Besixaxa Foundation. This programme
affords senior citizen the opportunity to bring stage performances
to disadvantaged areas and gives young people the opportunity to
showcase their talent and also contribute to job creation. Young
people are given an opportunity to learn and perform Umbhaqanga and
Isicathamiya. Those are the programmes as been asked, Chair. Thank
you.
Ms M L MOSHODI: Chairperson, thank you, hon Minister for sharing the
progress that the department is making. Hon Minister, as Tata Nelson
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Mandela said: ―I admire young people who are concerned with affairs
of their community and nation perhaps because I also involved in the
struggle while I was still at school.‖
My follow-up question, hon
Minister, would be what is your co-operation with the department of
education, in this regard? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, House Chairperson.
Understanding the task, amongst others, of Arts and Culture of
deepening national consciousness in our society to ensure that young
people grow up to involve themselves as Madiba would have said in
the affairs of their communities.
We have been engaging with the Department of Basic Education to
ensure that proper history South African, African and the global
history is compulsory at school. As we speak the Department of Basic
Education is busy with that research and we hope that at the end of
the day it will enhance our programmes especially the young
patriots‘ programme.
This is the programme where young people are given an opportunity to
serve their nation, to love their country and to be taught about
loving their people and their country; to understand first and
foremost, the national signs and symbols and understand where we
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come from as a society. And as a result we are also interacting with
public services and administration to ensure that the school of
governance takes up this matter so that young people are accredited
in understanding this very important concept of patriotism. Thank
you.
Siswati:
Ms L C DLAMINI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo nakuwe Ndvuna. Ngicela
kubuta, Ndvuna kutsi – njengobe tsine sivamise kukhohlwakala ngale
eMpumalanga; ingabe lukhona yini luhlelo nome umklamo lonjengalo?
Sike saba nawo umklamo ...
English:
... which was very good and related to the province - the Lion of
the East, u-Gert Sibande, but it seems like it has died a natural
death. Is it possible that we can resuscitate that project, if we
don‘t have such a project in our province at the moment?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): So that I can be consistent
in my ruling, moving forward – a follow-up question must be linked
to the original question, but I will leave this to you, hon Minister
to deal with hon Dlamini.
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thanks Chair. I will because it
just gives me an opportunity to share with the august House on
different programmes, for instance, the Lion of the East Programme,
Gert Sibande is part of a broader programme, the liberation heritage
route. And Mpumalanga has provided examples of areas where we need
to deepen such a programme. Each province in all these nine
provinces has provided us with three area sites, individuals who
they feel are important in shaping the history of our country in the
attainment of democracy. That was just a bonus for you, otherwise it
was out.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I am really glad, hon Minister, to
learn about all the initiative projects that you are rolling out in
the country and I think that is an excellent idea. We in the NCOP
are fortunate in that we are moving around quite a bit for oversight
and otherwise. And the impression that one is getting is that, you
know, seemingly it is not done to the same extent in your more rural
areas; and I just want to confirm with you if that is the case or
not then and what are you going to do to rectify those important
things that you are rolling out? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thanks hon Chair and the hon
member for your question. I must say that at the level of Minmec we
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have such a good co-operation of almost all the MECs and all of them
without fail emphasise the issue of rural development and outreach
programmes to rural areas, believe it or not, that includes Gauteng
on rural programmes as it were.
So, I don‘t think that it is much of a challenge, perhaps it will
differ from one province to the other depending on the machinery
from one province to the other. I can admit to you that some
provinces are ahead, for instance, the project I have referred to –
the liberation heritage project – which by the way - we have been
able to motivate for it at UNESCO level and at AU level. So, some
provinces are a bit ahead of others but some are coming.
I also think that, at the end of the day, the kind of programmes
which we are rolling out to the provinces is going to filter down to
all of them. I am very confident on that because we have got hard
working MECs – I must say.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, now that you
have made reference to this programme of yours that refers to the
national liberation heritage in the promotion of social cohesion, I
am not sure to what extent do you go with regard to your programmes
in terms of also promoting social cohesion at the level of Intra-
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Africa. In my view, in so doing you will be dealing with issues of
Xenophobia, and so on. At the back of my mind I am thinking of a
place called ―Trelawney Park‖ at Manzini in Swaziland which was
well-known during the underground years, as kaMagogo, if such cannot
be brought on board and be used as part of Intra-Africa cohesion
project?
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, you know, we have a
very unique opportunity as Africa, this time around, to take the
world through on what the Cabinet added from the liberated heritage
route to be resistance and liberation heritage route to take through
the world about who we are and where we come from and how we have
overcome colonialism on the continent Africa.
So, from that point of view, hon member we are well co-ordinated,
for the continent Tanzania is the convenor of what UNESCO terms road
to independence; it is the same programme which narrates the story
in our terms, and our way about how Africa has evolved over a period
of time. That is one of the programmes where we come together.
We also come together on the programme which we call Africa Month
which is the month of May, I launched that two weeks ago for this
year. Basically it is about the reintegration of South Africa into
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the continent; socially, politically, economically and culturally.
So, that programme is also unfolding because this is the first
developed ideas through different genres of arts culture and
heritage.
We have been able to mobilise the entire continent to be part and
parcel of the process so that we deal with whatever ills, be they
xenophobia, and be they Afrophobia and what have you. But the
programmes are unfolding and the continent is on board on that.
Thank you.
Question 99:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, he wanted 10, so I will
count some of them. The first one is Cape Town Philharmonic Jazz
Orchestra. We allocated R10,7 million for 2016-17. The second one is
KwaZulu-Natal Philharmonic Jazz Orchestra, which is R10,3 million.
The third one is the Indoni Youth Development of South Africa, which
is R10 million. The fourth one is Cape Town Jazz International
Festival, which is R8,4 million. The fifth one is the Imbokodo Women
Programme, which is R8 million. The sixth one is Discop in Gauteng,
which is R5 million. The seventh one, as an addition, is National
Arts Festival in Grahamstown in the Eastern Cape, which is
R5 million. The eighth one is Standard Bank Joy of Jazz Festival in
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Gauteng, which is R4 million. I can go on and on and on.
[Interjections.]
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Minister, at the back of you,
someone of the Free State is crying about Macufe. [Laughter.]
Afrikaans:
Mnr C HATTINGH: Voositter, ek wil graag weet watter kriteria deur
die Minister en die departement gebruik word om te bepaal watter van
hierdie kunstefeeste ondersteun word – kunstefeeste en nie
noodwendig orkeste nie. Ek sou graag wil weet. Daar is groot
kunstefeeste waarvan ons kennis dra, maar dit lyk asof hulle glad
nie ondersteun word nie. Ek dink ek sal by daardie vraag kom in my
skriftelike vraag aan die Minister. Dankie.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUCIKO NAMASIKO: Lapha into esiye siyibuke kakhulu
wukuthi njengoNgqongqoshe nanjengomnyango yikuphi lokho okuzoqhubela
phambili amasiko namaciko esizwe. Yilokho esibuye sikubuke.
ngiyabonga
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Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, I just wanted to check ... Besides the
department, there are other entities that are contributing
financially to these activities. I wanted to find out ...
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hatting.
Afrikaans:
Mr C HATTINGH: Agb Voorsitter, die Minister het glad nie die vraag
beantwoord nie. Ek wil spesifieke kriteria hê waar mens kan sien wat
die kriteria is waaraan ‘n kunstefees moet voldoen.
English:
He evaded the question.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hatting, I was listening to
the Minister. The hon Minister outlined the criteria. You asked the
criteria and he outlined it.
Mr C HATTINGH: Criteria is something you can write down and know if
you fulfil it or not. [Interjections.]
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hatting, let us not get into
that.
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Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I will get him later.
Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chairperson, I was saying that other than the
department, there are also other entities of government that are
contributing financially to the activities that the Minister has
outlined. I wanted to check if there are negotiations with the
…[Inaudible.] ... convening these activities to ensure that the
objectives of government are taken into account like one, job
creation and two, transformation, particularly the involvement of
black people in these activities like the Cape Town Jazz Festival.
There were a lot of department entities that were involved
financially. So, that is my question.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, Chair. Indeed, hon
member. We are considering ... Let me start by saying that part of
the criteria is job creation and youth development. We also
emphasise women empowerment in the programmes. There are projects
that we sometimes cancel and there are others that are candidates
for this year who do not fulfil those criteria. Here, we mainly work
with civil society and different entities in communities who then
appoint people for the programmes themselves. However, they know
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that there are agreed criteria which would ensure us contributing
positively into our GDP. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, [Thank you, Chair,]
English:
I see people are pleading cases for the areas where they come from.
I heard you mentioning areas. There is another Jazz festival, the
Ugu Jazz Arts and Culture Festival that was initiated by the first
Mayor of Ugu some years ago. [Interjections.] It is even still
running today. So, it is a very good project. That mayor was
Mntomuhle Khawula. I did not hear you saying anything about it. It
has changed its calendar to the month of June. I just wanted to find
out if there is still space for Ugu District to negotiate for that
festival to also get funding because it is a very big festival with
very good objectives. So, I am pleading the case for that one. Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, hon member, point taken
about the Ugu Jazz Arts and Culture Festival. This is indeed one of
the flexi programmes that is a success story. Hon member, I would
say to you, which I have also raised with my counterparts in the
province, that in line with our approach to provinces, we have at
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least two provincial flexi programmes of the province‘s choice. I
think the province of KwaZulu-Natal can still do much better. The
Cape Town Jazz Festival, for instance, has assumed this global
stature precisely because of the destination, Cape Town. KwaZuluNatal, Durban can do what Cape Town is doing and even more, in terms
of climate and so on. You have, for example, in Gauteng, Macufe, as
the hon member said. Everybody knows about Macufe today. In Gauteng,
the Joy of Jazz has been a success story. Each and every province is
always encouraged to do better because there are resources. It only
needs the province to put concepts together and make it work. Thank
you.
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, ...
IsiZulu:
... Ngqongqoshe owami umbuzo obuye ube yisicelo ngesikhathi
esisodwa [same time] ukuthi ngimzwile uNgqongqoshe ekuqaleni
usinikeze izinhlelo [programmes] eziningi ezixuba intsha [youth]
ezibuye zixube nabantu besifazane futhi ngiyakholelwa futhi lokho
nikwenzela ukuthi kubekhona ukuthi kuhlonyulwe kwezomnotho yilezo
zinhlaka zomphakathi. Ngiyocela Ngqongqoshe ukuthi ezindaweni
ezinjengalezi ko-Cape Town kulama-festival amakhulu ikakhulukazi
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ngaphansi komkhakha wezobuciko abaculi/abadlali beshashalazi
[performing arts/artist] ...
English:
There has always been an outcry that they get left out of the
processes and that they don‘t get to benefit economically. I just
want you to verify mechanisms in your department to ensure that all
population groups, but particularly those that were previously
disadvantaged, benefit from those programmes. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, let me say that I
think we have made a clear footprint nationally, especially with the
flagship programmes, mainly in big cities. Not so many people know
about the activities in Mapungubwe in Limpopo, for instance. Yet,
you have activities there.
What we are looking into, going forward, is that such flagship
programmes that have established themselves like Macufe, the Cape
Town Jazz Festival, become self-sustained so that we are able to
release those resources to much lower levels. For example, if you
talk about Ugu, not many people know about that, but they know where
Durban is. It means that the person who was a mayor there did not do
a good job, so people don‘t know. [Laughter.] We really want to get
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down to those smaller towns, which have not been favoured as the big
cities.
Question 125:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, we now come to
Question 125 asked by Hon Mokwele. Initially I was made to
understand that it was hon Mathevula but hon Mokwele is now in the
House.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Okay. Chair, improving the lives
of all South Africans is the commitment made by this administration
and building on the work that has been done since 1994. Various
spheres of government have been allocated specific tasks by the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. Due to budgetary
constraints, the Department of Arts and Culture, whenever a project
is planned, will pick up on the central point where a majority of
people from around will be able to access and use the project. We
also intervene when there are specific requests from provinces,
especially provincial governments to assist them.
There are two libraries in the area which is being enquired on, that
are servicing the community of Madikwe. These two institutions are
meant to encourage a culture of reading within our communities,
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especially Madikwe because South Africa is one of the lowest in the
world in terms of reading in communities. So we do more in ensuring
that our libraries are working for that purpose. Thank you, Chair.
Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke rata go leboga Tona ka karabo e a
mphileng yona. Le fa go ntse jalo, ke rata go tlhagisa ntlha e nngwe
ya gore kwa Madikwe, laeborari e o buang ka yona e na le dingwaga di
le thataro e agilwe mme e ile ya bulwa ka ngwaga o o fitileng. Fela
ga e ise e nne le fa e le buka e le nngwe.
Gape, sekgala sa go tswa kwa Madikwe go ya kwa Tlokweng ke
dikhilomithara tse di ka nnang 20, ka jalo, go thata gore baagi ba
kwa Madikwe ba fitlhelele laeborari eo gore ba kgone go tokafatsa
matshelo a bona. Potso e ke e lebisitseng kwa go wena Tona ke gore,
a ga go na sepe se o se dirang fa go na le ...
English:
... MECs from different provinces in terms of them assisting you to
prioritise in terms of your budgeting, prioritising the needs of the
people per specific areas? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon member for your
follow up question.
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IsiZulu:
Iyezwakala lento oyishoyo, ngikuzwa kahle futhi ngizokhuluma
nozakwethu kulesiya sifundazwe ukuthi sibone ukuthi kwenzeka kanjani
lokhu okushoyo ngoba uzokhumbula ukuthi izindaba zomtapo yolwazi
ikakhulukazi kuye kubanjiswane kuHulumeni wesifundazwe noHulumeni
wasekhaya. Kusho ukuthi ngalendlela thina sizosebenza ukuthi
siqinisekise ukuthi bayakwazi ukukukhuluma umphakathi wase-Madikwe
ukwazi ukuhlomula. Siyabonga kakhulu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele!
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, whilst the Minister says he will talk
to his counterparts at local government level, I also want to ask
him whether he will talk to his counterparts at provincial level to
find out what is going on with the monument erected for President
Jacob Zuma because it is a very sad thing ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, hon Julius.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Can you ask him to answer.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes. Assist me; make my life
to be much easier. Can you take your seat? When I was dealing with
hon Dlamini, I made it clear that for us to be able to continue with
these questions, a follow up question must be linked to the original
question. You can not come with a new question that is not linked to
the original question. So that is my plea not only to you but to all
the members of this National Council of Provinces. Thank you.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes. The question is based on the answer
Chairperson that is why I did not ask it in any other questions. I
am asking it now. Talking to counterparts at other spheres of
government, I just want an undertaking from the Minister but we will
also do that in terms of the monument that will be erected for
President Jacob Zuma.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is entirely irrelevant.
Mr J W W JULIUS: But I also think House Chairperson, in all fairness
that you need to give the Minister an opportunity to answer ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am going to do that.
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Mr J W W JULIUS: ... because you did that to the ANC questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am doing that.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, it is entirely
up to you to entertain the question from hon Julius.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Well I am happy that the hon
member has suddenly realised that there has to be intergovernmental
relations rather than wanting to get an answer from me of a budget
of a province. It is not a difficult thing to talk to the province,
we will talk to the province but I am really thanking him for seeing
the light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you.
Mr M RAYI: House Chair, I think ...
IsiXhosa:
... impendulo yombuzo ebendinawo iye yafumaneka kuMphathiswa
ngethuba ephendula ohloniphekileyo uMokwele. Kwiveki ephelileyo
kwiKomiti eKhethekileyo yeSebe lezoKhenketho kuye kwavela imbali
ngezoshishino kwiSitalato iVilakazi, eSoweto. Ihambisa ithi, kwaqala
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umntu wamnye, wazincama wangena kwezoshishino. Sibona ukuba isebe
lingathethathethana namahlakani alo, njengoko lisitsho, libonisane
nawo ukuba bangakhuthazwa njani abantu bala ngingqi (ward) nesa
sitalato ukwenza ukuba iqhawe eli laziwe ngakumbi. Loo nto ingenza
ukuba baxhamle ngokuba behlala kwesa sitalato nanjengoko lo wokuqala
waxhamlayo.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Rayi, I will allow the
Minister if he is ready to respond or comment about what you are
raising because the original question by hon Mokwele was dealing
about her ward and now we are now taking advantage of the situation
but I will leave it to the hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, I am generous today and I
will venture into what he has asked. You know hon member, Vilakazi
Street is so popular not only in South Africa, in fact the first
publication I came across about Vilakazi and how entrepreneurs
started their work and how booming it is was in Germany which says
that it attracts people not only from around the continent but
across the globe. It is a model I must say, it is a model. I think a
lot of us from different areas can learn a lot from that particular
initiative because when you have an approach where you put on the
table your ideas and you want people to help you when you are
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already implementing your ideas is much better than coming with a
cap in hand not even having an idea but knowing that you want
something out of the system.
So I think we can learn a lot from that process even though as you
say, it is a question which is more of sharing information,
siyayilevela [we are just levelling/sharing information] Thank you.
Question 124:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, the Department of Arts and
Culture has considered the documentation of the history of youth in
the fight against colonial oppression. But I must say that
consideration has been located within this huge project. I hope that
one day we will have time to go through each province to look into
how each MEC and leadership of each province has viewed this
particular project of the resistance and liberation heritage fruit.
Therefore the youth one is part and parcel of the project. And this
resistance and liberation heritage project as we said, is a national
memory project aimed at identifying, recognising, celebrating and
commemorating heroes and heroines including unsung heroes and
heroines, sites, places and events associated with resistance and
liberation.
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The resistance and liberation heritage root project is cognisant of
various sector contributions in the fight against colonialism and
oppression such as the role of women, youth, trade unions,
intelligence, and of religious leaders and so on. The contribution
of these sectors including the contribution of youth is recognised
through the following work streams. Firstly, heritage infrastructure
development – Secondly, tourism and marketing of sites related to
the role of youth in the struggle – Thirdly, alternative forms of
memorialisation such as feeling, place, and books on youth in the
struggle – Fourthly, the research and development of content in the
role of youth in the struggle – Fifth, community engagement,
beneficiation, heritage, conservation and protection - And the last
one is the communication about places and events related to the
contribution of the youth in the struggle. Thank you.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much Chair and thank you to the
Minister. Minister, what I would like to know is in line with your
response on the programmes that we have started as the department in
terms of ensuring that there is a programme of dealing with the
heritage of contribution of young people in the struggle. I would
like to know if there are programmes that we have with different
countries especially here in Africa to learn and share from each
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other so that when they write the history of Africa we are able to
be part of that.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Absolutely hon member. As we said,
one of the things we emphasised when we were given this
responsibility, was that the departments has much more deeper role
in society and as a result, its not an accident that it‘s the
department responsible to co-ordinate Outcome 14 of nation building
and social cohesion. We spoke about the social cohesion programme
for instance, and the role of young people there, the Africa month
programme where we interact with the continent and the Diaspora on
different projects. As we tumid the first developed ideas, we have
colloquia and each year we organise young people to be part of this
and each year because this is the third year of the Africa month
programme we get one giant, literally giant, to ensure that young
people in that area also contribute.
When we started our guest was Ben Okri. Last year it was Wole
Soyinka to get youth on board. This year it‘s going to be Ngugi wa
Thiong‘o, so we do all this so that we broaden the horizon of youth
in our country and the continent to understand first and foremost,
what is happening in the African continent because if you talk to
young people, they will tell you more about the European history and
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so on. But they wouldn‘t understand what is happening here at home.
So these projects are aimed at cross pollination amongst us as
African states particularly for youth to prosper. But also in the
performing art areas, we have this exchange programmes. We started
here this year with Algeria and Gabon where we send young people of
South Africa from all genres of arts of culture or heritage to spend
sometime in that country and then have the youth of that country
come to South Africa with that particular exchange. And we hope that
through culture we would be able to deepen these ties which bind us
as Africans. Thank you.
Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Potso ya me e nnye fela. Ke gore ke tlhole le wena
gore diporojeke tse le di dirang jaaka lefapha tsa go golola bomme
mo kgatelelong, a ke diporojeke tse e leng gore le ikaelela gore le
godise serodumo sa bomme fela ka gonne ke bomme, kgotsa le dira
diporojeke tse e leng gore kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi, rona jaaka
bomme re a go iphitlhela e le gore re gololesegile mo moweng, mo
tlhaloganyong le mo go nneng le seemo sa gore re ipele ka setso sa
rona go ya go ile? Ke a leboga.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, the hon member is spot
on here because ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] I don‘t know that.
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Its spot on because when we talk development, we are not talking
passive recipient, we talk of people who are championing the
programmes. When it comes to the decolonisation of the mines for
instance which is the key programme of Africa month. This is where
we see the participation and leadership of women at local level
because the emphasis here is that we have had these programmes I our
cities but lets have them in the townships – Lets have the in the
rural areas so that whatever happens, the information and knowledge
gap is breached through the programmes themselves. So if the hon
member, you can always be like this, I think we will go far.
[Laughter.]
Question 105:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, I think this is one of
the more important questions asked by the member.
Before getting into the statistics here and in order to understand
the context, let me start by saying that a study on the contribution
of what is called cultural and creative industries was done, in
2013. It transpired that the industry contributed 2,9%, or
R90,5 billion, to the GDP. We said that was interesting to note
because, in most cases, the information about that industry is not
shared. As a result, people do not understand the vastness of the
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area - it covers everything to do with the arts, culture and
heritage – a world of areas, as it were.
Specifically, for 2016-17, the department created 7 590 job
opportunities during this period. In the first quarter, 813 jobs
were created and in the second quarter, 1 204. We went down in the
third and fourth quarters. Those two quarters produced 135 jobs.
There were nine cultural events funded, for under R100 000.
We have spoken a lot about the flagship programmes here, which
created 4 354 jobs. During Africa Month last year, we created 610
jobs; with the touring ventures, 404 jobs; and with the community
arts centres, 61 jobs, totalling 7 509 jobs. Thank you.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, that was really
insightful. My own perception is that, at the moment, perhaps we are
only scratching the surface. When we look at our traditional
markets, that is, people who are visiting this country, there is a
huge interest in cultural things, especially African culture.
Therefore, South African arts and culture has the potential to be
developed into an area of employment for many more talented South
Africans. The establishment of development centres in underdeveloped
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areas will, I think, stimulate interest, development and, obviously,
the development of skills.
My question, Mr Minister, is this: Has the department started with
such centres in the country? If so, where, specifically? Thank you,
Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, there is no doubt that the
cultural and creative industries are the catalyst for economic
growth. If they are implemented to their fullest, we will see this
sector contributing more to the GDP, as it were.
We have, over a period of time, established community arts centres.
I must say, again, that what you wish for and envisage sometimes
does not go that way. Some of the community arts centres are white
elephants, today. We believe that we need to do more to mobilise
society to enjoy the activities of the arts. I don‘t know how many
members here have visited heritage sites, for instance, here, in the
country, at this level. So, you can imagine what happens when one
goes into the communities. There is a lot of work that needs to be
done to motivate people to understanding its importance.
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If you look at the developed economies of the world, the area of
culture and creative industry has played a key role in their
development. As we speak, this industry employs 1% of the global
population. It means that there is potential. We can still do more
by ensuring that we are able to support what we have.
Part of the problem is that, even though people may admire the
finished product, they cannot assist those who took the time and
made the effort to do whatever they are doing to go beyond
appreciation and actually buy the product, and so on. All of that
needs a lot of work from all of us in society so that, at the end of
the day, we don‘t have important centres becoming white elephants.
Thank you.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, Minister, as a direct follow-up
question, I would like to know: For more or less how long, in terms
of years or months, do these centres remain white elephants? The
Minister really gave us the assurance that he was trying to do
something in terms of that, but for us to trust that, we need to
know, more or less, how long they remained white elephants. I am
just afraid that the monument to President Zuma you don‘t know about
will also become a white elephant. [Interjections.]
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, what was the hon member‘s
question? I don‘t think he was clear about his question, because,
you see, the communities themselves and their leaders need to play a
role in making people understand and appreciate what their own
people are doing in their own communities. That will take the work
of all of us in communities to ensure that, indeed, our people are
helping those who are up-and-coming entrepreneurs in the industry.
In addition, in their own right, as artists, they will only survive
if there is local support.
Local support is being emphasised here, and I think all of us have a
responsibility to ensure that we reach that point of self-sustaining
our own in our own communities. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I do hear what the hon Minister is saying
in terms of the role that the communities need to play. However, I
think the department also needs to be effective in playing their
role. It is quite noticeable that there will be a lot of attention
given to such centres and sites when it comes to the urban areas.
However, when it comes to the rural areas, they are really
struggling, hence the issue of white elephants and white rhinos – I
don‘t quite know why not white lions. Why is it always white
elephants? [Laughter.] Why can it not be white lions, at some stage?
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Let me give some examples, hon Minister. In KwaZulu-Natal, there is
a very important road which starts at Stanger elibeni leNkosi uShaka
[King Shaka‘s grave]. You go to Eshowe, where you have KwaBulawayo.
You go to KwaMthethwa, where you have the monument to Inkosi
uDingiswayo. You come to Ulundi where you have the residence of King
Cetshwayo, the residence of King Dingane, Umgungundlovu, ithuna [the
grave] of Piet Retief, and eMakhosini Valley. Travel up through the
battlefields and you have Isandlwana. However, that is not promoted!
All of those are in rural areas. As a result, people don‘t know and
the promotion of these places is done on a very small scale.
My question is this: What is the Minister‘s department doing to
assist in such instances so that these sites also get international
attention and tourists from all over the world? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I thank the hon
member for his question. Some of the areas and sites which the hon
member mentioned, like Isandlwana, are well known, internationally.
They are well known.
When I said that it will take all of us to play our roles, I was
saying that understanding very well that one department will not be
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able to achieve this. How many sites do we have in South Africa, or
even in one province? Some are still coming to light because people
are continually identifying them. It‘s a job for all of us. The
Department of Arts and Culture has actually contributed to
establishing some of them and ensuring that there is local and
provincial government where they are. At a national level, it would
be difficult to oversee all of these ever-increasing sites.
I would also like to emphasise the point of including communities
and partnering with the private sector, especially in promoting the
sites. Some of the sites the hon member spoke of are not known to
other South Africans and people in other provinces. What it means,
then, is that a lot of work is needed here. Each one of us can only
do so much. We need the rest of us to ensure that, indeed ...
If one speaks about KwaDubuza, for instance, no one can say he
doesn‘t know iLembe, wherever you are in the world, not just in
Africa or South Africa. What is it that has not made that very
important site more than what it is? It has to be more than what it
is, given the contribution of umfokaSenzangakhona [the son of
Senzangakhona].
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I am pleased with the level of engagement here, because, in all
fairness, what it is saying is that we think about these matters,
about our richness, as a society, not only in material gains, but
those intangible values, those important sites which, by and large,
have to do with our spirits and understanding their importance.
Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon members, let
me take this opportunity to do two things, on behalf of the
leadership of the NCOP. Hon Sisulu, Motshekga and Mthethwa, we
apologise. According to our plan, we were supposed to have finished
both the hon Motshekga‘s and Mthethwa‘s questions earlier on. We
know that you have your own diaries and we were supposed to start
with the hon Sisulu‘s questions at two o‘clock – and she was here at
that exact time. However, it was because of the engagement you are
talking about, and we thank you a million times over, hon Minister,
for your co-operation. We have finished with your questions and we
are getting to the next two. Thank you, hon Mthethwa. [Applause.]
We now get to the Department of Basic Education. You have been with
us since this morning, hon Minister. We will start with Question 75
from the hon Magwebu – and, hon members, let us be lively. If you
have follow-up questions, they must not be an after-thought. If your
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hand is not up once the response is given, I will move to the next
question.
Question 75:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the response is that, yes
indeed, the Eastern Cape is one of the three lowest performing
provinces in the country, but I am also encouraged by the fact that
they had a 2,5 increase in terms of their performance in 2016, which
gives us hope that they are green shoots that shows that the
province is on the mend and is on the right trajectory.
So, is the question what we do as a national department? As a
national department, we have what we call National Strategy for
Learner Attainment, which is a key driver to ensure improve learning
outcomes in all provinces, including the Eastern Cape. As the
Department of Education, we support this strategy, but Eastern Cape
in particular gets the most attention as compared to other
provinces. They have recently appointed a very good Superintendent
General, Mr Kojana. The national and provincial departments seconded
a number of key and very successful education managers, the former
Head of Department of Basic Education, Duncan Hindle. We have also
seconded Penny Vingevold, who was a Superintendent General of
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Eastern Cape. We have also recalled a gentleman who was a chief
executive officer at national department to support the province.
We can say that there are green shoots and there is a process to
assist the Eastern Cape. As part of the targeted initiatives, we can
say we visit the province quite regularly. We have conducted a
three-days school governing body summit in the Eastern Cape. We have
maths intervention programmes at different regions of the Eastern
Cape. There are other interventions also around, including maths and
physical science education development in the area.
We also partner with institutions higher learning, but more
important, we continue to monitor the Eastern Cape learners support
plan for 2017, which focuses on effective utilisation of the results
analysis, the management co-ordination and monitoring of learner
performance, the capacity of the province and districts, teacher
development initiatives, improving accountability and ensuring that
there is effective management in the province. So, in general, we
have a number of interventions that we are doing to ensure that the
province is improving. But as I say, there are green shoots; there
is hope that things are moving in the right direction in the Eastern
Cape.
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Mr L V MAGWEBU: Minister, as you are saying there are green shoots,
be that as it may, you are aware that in the last five years the
Eastern Cape has been on the bottom of the list and has been the
worst performer in matric results. I appreciate that there are
interventions are in place as you say and there is constant
monitoring. My question is: Can you give us an undertaking, that if
the Eastern Cape backslides and drops because even the improvement
is so insignificant, that come the current class of 2017 matric pass
rate, you will then invoke the provisions of section 100(1)(b)(i),
wherein the national Minister or the national government has then
the right to take over the provincial competence when it is not
delivering, and therefore, if that moment comes, would you give us
that undertaking that you would take over and invoke the provisions
of the Constitution? That‘s section 100(1)(b)? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, Chair, I cannot make that
undertaking that I will invoke section 100(1)(b). We have done
section 100(1)(b) in the Eastern Cape, it didn‘t work very well.
What is effectively working is the strategy we are using of working
collaboratively with them because you can‘t as national department
take over a province. Even the number of people employed in the
Eastern Cape are not even half of what I employed as a Minister
nationally, so, they even have more people than I have.
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So, all we could do is to work with them and make sure that we
support them. This approach that we have used is the one that we are
saying is giving us green shoots. So, if it doesn‘t work, I can‘t
make that undertaking. We will have to go back to the drawing board
and say what else or where did we go wrong, but from the
interventions we have been doing, they have been working, Chair.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, noting that the department stated in court
papers filed in the Grahamstown High Court that SA Democratic
Teachers Union, Sadtu, blocking of future deployment had over the
years resulted in overstaffing at some schools, understaffing at
others, over expenditure of its personnel budget and resultant
shortages in other parts of the budget - quoting from court papers
filed by the department. Now, the question is: How has Sadtu‘s
manipulation of the placement of educators influence the Eastern
Cape outcomes during the last five years as my colleague stated when
they were actually right at the bottom of matric results?
Secondly, the court order spanning over the period 2018-20, has that
been implemented right now or are we still [15:13] hanging in the
legacy?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, it‘s a followup question.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, as I said the interventions
we are making are to help with administrative challenges which have
to deal with most of the issues raised like finance. That‘s why we
had to recall a chief executive officer, Penny Vingevold from here
to help them with administrative systems. We have Duncan Hindle also
who has been send there to go and help them with the administration.
The Sadtu story, I don‘t know where it comes from because as I say
the problems were with the administration. Sadtu, is a teachers
organisation. So, I don‘t know about that manipulation of
administrative problems. We are not administrators. The
administrative problems are with the administrators of the province.
So, I am really not sure where this Sadtu obsession comes from.
[Interjections.]
Ms L C DLAMINI: Chair, there is only one hon Dlamini. Chair, I think
to be positive always assists. Our wish as Parliament is to see this
province going up like any other province. We do appreciate the
increase that they have received, but we cannot anticipate that they
will backslide. That‘s why I am saying positive thinking always
assists because you plan according to what you wish to achieve.
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My follow-up question, Chair, is that with regard to the province
itself, I know hon Minister that you cannot directly monitor the
province. Our take as a committee, we had an oversight in the
Eastern Cape. I think some of the issues that are coming from hon
Hattingh are coming from the issues that were raised by the
officials from education. But what we also observed ourselves is the
commitment by the province. Maybe you also need to encourage them
even though you cannot directly instruct them that there must be
hands on. When we were there throughout the visit, they did not
pitch up, except on the last day where we saw the then acting
Superintendent General. We just wish to see them to be more hands on
like you do as the national government. But we do appreciate the
increase in the Eastern Cape.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, it was a positive
comment.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Minister, I wanted to ask the question on the
matric pass rate of Vuwani, but I thought it would be very much
unfair because you weren‘t part of the group that run away from the
people the other day. So, I will stick to this one. Hon Minister,
there is a worrying phenomenon happening in provinces in our schools
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and is called culling, where principals would hold back learners. We
know we had that process about two, three years ago. We said these
leave learners that weren‘t supposed to pass; we put them over to
Grade 12.
Now, there is new phenomenon where principals in order to increase
the pass rate, they will deliberately hold back learners. This was
confirmed by your deputy director-general. Are you aware of this
phenomenon? Did you get a report? Would you also undertake if you
didn‘t get a report, would you undertake to investigate this matter
and come back to us, please? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, no, I leave it to
the Minister if she is ready to entertain it, but it is not linked
to the original question. It‘s a new question.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I can entertain it by
stating that Vuwani actually had the best results in Limpopo last
year. Surprise! Surprise! So, they really had the best results in
the entire province. But with regard to the retention of learners,
Chair, that‘s why we instituted the policy on progression, which is
not only to deal with culling. But we felt that instead of throwing
learners who by policy were supposed to get out of school because
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they would have either failed their Grade 11 twice or thrice or they
are overaged, is to give them additional support and progress them
to Grade 12 and some of them again have surprised us. They not only
passed, but got bachelors and some even got distinctions in the
subjects which they were struggling with. But you are quiet right, I
am just being polite. It is not part of the question. I am just been
generous with the ...
Question 71:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the question is about
subjects which were taken up or down, so the answer is that of the
58 subjects that were presented by the Department of Basic
Education, 26 subjects were kept as they were so the marks were not
taken up or down. Twenty eight subject‘s marks were adjusted upwards
and four were adjusted downwards. Then the question wants details –
it is going to take me the whole day to read you the details. So I
can give the member the annexure b attached here because it wants
full detail which subjects ... [Interjections.]...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It‘s allowed in term of the
Rules. You just table.
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The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I will table the annexure. Then the
second part of the question, again of the 58 subjects that we had
sent to Umalusi for standardisation. As I say, of the 59 subjects,
29 subject‘s raw marks were kept, but now they want the 2015
information, the ones I gave you were for 2016.
In the year 2015, we presented 59 subjects and 29 of the subjects
were kept as they were and 30 were adjusted downwards out of the 59.
Again the question wants me to give details against attached as
annexure b – so I will hand over the annexure to the member or to
the House because it‘s going to take me the whole afternoon to read
the details of what has been asked.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, to the hon Minister, thank you. I
think you have made a mistake there in 2015 and said 30 adjusted
downwards. Did you mean down or up? [Interjections.] In 2015, did
you say 30 were adjusted downwards? [Interjections.] Yes, 30
adjusted ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, you know that
you cannot talk directly to the Minister?
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Mr M KHAWULA: No Chair, but I can‘t make my follow up because it‘s a
mistake.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is why in terms of the
Rules it is allowed if the question in nature is dealing with
statistics; it can be of written reply. So, now the challenge is to
do justice to the question because there is that detailed
information from the Minister.
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Thank you, hon Minister,
my concern here hon Minister is in respect of whether we are
improving as a country regarding the quality of our results. When
you look at this, in 2015 we had adjustments in 30 subjects upwards
and in 2016 we had again adjustments in 28 subjects upwards. Only
four subjects were down in 2016. In other words, subjects where
learner‘s marks were substracted were on only four subjects. In 2016
where learners had to be given marks were in 28 subjects. It is a
concern with respect to quality. What is the Department of Basic
Education going to do in respect of this? It shows that we are not
improving at all. It‘s a big concern.
Hon Minister, for example in mathematics literacy the adjustment by
Umalusi was from 38% to 71%. The overall was 38%, but after
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adjusting, the overall was 71%. This talk volume in terms of the
quality results we get. What is the department doing, so that this
is not seen as manipulation of results, but as standardisation,
because if it goes like that really it is not standardisation it‘s
manipulation? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No Chair, the member should check
his facts. You can never moderate beyond ten per cent it‘s not
possible. So that you could adjust from 34% to 71% is just
completely untrue. Umalusi would not do it. It is not true what the
member said. It is unfortunate.
The question of standardisation if the member had been in the
teaching or education fraternity ... we even do it at universities
to standardise marks only. It‘s an old phenomena; it is not the
phenomena that came with the democratic government. It‘s an external
examiner phenomenon. The member should not even be excited about it.
It is there and it‘s going to be there even after we have both left
the government. We have found it as part of an educational practice
and there are reasons why we have an independent body to regulate
and to moderate your marks. It is part of moderation everywhere,
even at a school level. As teachers, we sit after we get a chart to
moderate marks – it is a normal thing, but the 34% to 70% issue I
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can vouch it‘s purely untrue. I don‘t want to use strong language.
It is very untrue. It is not true.
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, I want to agree with the hon Minister
that it is a practice not only for the external candidates, but also
for grades, between Grade 1 and Grade 12 it‘s actually done. There
are various factors that are taken into account in order to effect
either downwards adjustments or upwards. However, I thought that the
Minister would actually clarify to us or explain to ordinary parents
like myself out there in order to avoid this perception ...
IsiZulu:
... yokuthi izingane ziphiwe amamaki. Aziphiwe izingane amamaki
kodwa kukhona izinto eziyaye zibhekwe
...
English:
... that lead to the marks being adjusted either upwards or
downwards.
IsiZulu:
Ngingathi mhlawumbe uNgqongqoshe angimcele ake achaze ukuthi kusuke
kwenziwa yini ukuthi alinganise [adjust] amamaki ezingane?
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The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, with moderation you
adjust marks to make sure that you maintain the same quality. So,
the child who passed Grade 12 in 2012 in terms of the same quality
it would be the same quality outcome even in 2020. So, the
moderation is done very technically; it is done scientifically to
deal with a human factor that would have affected both marking and
the setting of exams. That is why there is a need that before you
release results; you have to get ... technical instrument by an
independent body like Umalusi which has no interest in results,
whether they go up and down, to check if indeed the standard has
been maintained through a different human factor that could have an
impact on results. That is why the moderation, cannot even be done
possibly by ourselves even if we are viewed as having an interest.
It is done by an independent body using scientific tools and
instruments. It is done through SA statisticians analysing - that is
why we invite political parties at the end of the results to take
through members of the party so that they understand how the
adjustment process and how the technical process is done. It is a
very technical process. I can‘t claim that I have the expertise; it
is only done by experts. South African Statistical Association,
Sasa, is an international trend which is done through international
instruments and international processes. However, it is ready to
make sure that you maintain the standards and can manage the human
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factor which can deal with this manipulation that the member is
worried about and saying that there is a risk. Who wants to dump
their own kids?
Question 82:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: So, the question is about
infrastructure and that the three years targets that we have,
relating to minimum norms and standards in the public schools, where
schools were rebuild entirely from inappropriate materials as well
as schools that don‘t have access to any form of water and
sanitation. So, most of the provinces didn‘t meet their targets,
they had to revise plans which we accepted, in particular, the
provinces which had some challenges, for instance, here in the
Western Cape, just as we were advancing with the building, there
were serious structural problems which had to cost us almost a
year‘s delay, because we were to get structural engineers to come
and assist us with the interpretation of the plans. So, there were
real technical problems that were unforeseen in three schools in the
Western Cape.
In Eastern Cape, in particular, we had technical problems because we
had to deal with rationalisation, because as we were building
schools, we could see that with rapid urbanisation - what we had
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planned five years back was no longer relevant and the numbers have
declined, so we had to revise the entire plans that we have. So,
again that is why we didn‘t meet the three-year targets.
We are collecting information on water, sanitation and electricity
and we will be able to provide even this House with a verified
report as soon as it is completed, so we don‘t have a final report
around water, sanitation and electricity. But the long and short is,
the three-year plans were not achieved. We didn‘t reach our targets
for technical reasons, especially in those two provinces.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would like to know if the Minister is
able to perhaps give us an indication as to when will these targets
be met? I am asking this question ... the Minister would know that
from 2009 that I am in love with this education portfolio,
unfortunately I am not with the Minister anymore, but if we just go
back to the 4th Parliament, we put this Eastern Cape department
under section 100. I don‘t know how this section 100 was uplifted. I
have no idea how that was done because I heard some members asking,
for instance, why hasn‘t it been introduced - it was just taken
away?
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Now, we are asking by when and we can‘t just say maybe we don‘t have
targets. I would like to know, can you give us definite time,
please, Chair?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, Chair. We can again just say
the whole process of rationalisation is still underway and it has
its own undue delays, because of the legal framework, by the time we
think we have finish consultations, like the Western Cape did,
communities take us to court.
So, we can give you what we have planned to do but I don‘t want to
say definitely, some of these legal battles that we are encountering
with rationalisation would not arise, but we can at next time just
give an indication that with regard to the plans this is were the
province says it will be. So, I think that should not be difficult.
In terms of section 100(1b), if you don‘t come to NCOP to renew it,
it elapses and it elapses technically so, and we allowed it to
elapse because we didn‘t want to renew it.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Minister, you mentioned that the department didn‘t
reach the targets because of technical reasons but there are other
reasons too and I think this is why we are here, to bring to your
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attention incidents where these things are happening. I brought it
to the attention of MEC Lesufi and Deputy Minister Surty about two
years ago. An asbestos school in my community, Randfontein
secondary, and I think you know the school, it was the first time
where we met, I think few years ago when you were still the MEC,
where they build a brick building right around an asbestos building.
The asbestos are still inside.
To move with these things with regard to our infrastructure that is
a complete waste of money and time. I am just bringing to your
attention, because I have already written a letter in our NCOP
briefing to the MEC Lesufi and I spoke to the Deputy Minister. I
would like you to make an undertaking that you‘ll come and see
because it is a very serious health hazard for those teachers and
learners there. The panels inside the asbestos panels are breaking
and it is very serious.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, you have brought
the question to the attention of the Minister, let‘s allow the
Minister to deal with it.
Mr J W W JULIUS: I am not done. Am I done with my time?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is a follow up question,
not follow up questions.
Mr J W W JULIUS: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): A member is doing a follow up
question.
Mr J W W JULIUS: I am asking you House Chair, you are supposed to
rule on my two minutes, not something else.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, your two minutes is up.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Then you rule on that, please and say your time is
up. Don‘t bring other stories, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, it is fine. Your time
is up. Let‘s allow the Minister to respond.
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The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: You are correct about asbestos
schools in Gauteng. So, it is also a technical issue because when we
had Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi,
and the funds, schools were not submitted as a first batch of Asidi
and after all consultations, we found that there are 21 asbestos
schools in Gauteng. We have submitted a bid to Treasury and we are
awaiting whether we are going get money to assist in those asbestos
schools, so they are being considered. Plans are underway. We just
want to check if Treasury will give us money for Gauteng or they
will insist that Gauteng rebuilds those schools themselves, because
when I was MEC, some of the asbestos schools were rebuilt by the
province. So, it is again technical because it is financial but we
are aware of those challenges and we are dealing with them.
Question 122:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the question is really
about the regulation in fees in private schools and which barriers
to access in favour exclusion. Chair, I can answer in one answer,
that is, as the Department of Basic Education we do not regulate
fees of private educational institutions. As the Minister, we don‘t
have powers in either the South African School Act or the National
Education Policy to regulate fees of independent schools. It is only
schools that are identified as qualifying for a subsidy that the
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department does assist. This therefore means that there would be
private schools, where the state cannot provide a school and it can
be proven that there is a need for that school then we subsidise,
but generally we don‘t even get closer to private schools because we
have no powers by law.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, it is worrying hon Minister to hear
that there is no one who regulate them in terms of the fees. We know
that most parents who send their kids in those private schools are
those who can afford. However, my understanding was that it may not
have been the department, but a situation whereby we have these
schools and they are mushrooming, there are so many of them because
I think is because they know that they are not regulated and they
are making a lot of money. It is worrying to know that they are not
regulated. It would have assisted that we have them being regulated.
I don‘t have a follow up question Chair, it is a comment that I am
making.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Dlamini, you are
protected.
Setswana:
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Moh T J MOKWELE: Potso ya me mama ke gore, kwa ke tswang teng kwa
Bokone Bophirima go na le sekolo se se bidiwang ...
English:
... Rustenburg Hoërskool, which is a public school but the fees
there are extremely high even the private schools surrounding that
area their fees are not as high as of that high school. It is
predominantly white Afrikaner kids that are attending there. It
means that is the means of excluding others that can‘t afford. Then,
my question to you Minister is that, as the department will you have
a system where you regulate especially public schools that they can
be accessible to all? This is because if that school doesn‘t fall
under the category of being subsidised, our people will still be
excluded and that school gives quality education and the medium of
instruction or language used there is only Afrikaans. It is either
you are in with Afrikaans or you are in with your money. Therefore
Minister, please we are appealing to you, we want to take our kids
there also. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: That is a major challenge that we
are experiencing as a sector in all, especially in your main urban
areas. What makes it difficult this far until we change the law,
South African Schools Act, Sasa, gives parents the powers to
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determine language policies. It is in law that we agreed on as the
ruling party, to make decisions in terms of admission policy against
the language and also the regulation of fees. Then, if the governing
body itself sits down and say the fees are R60 000, that becomes it
because that is what the law allows them to do.
It is not only black families that get affected but even average
families find it very difficult in those galloping fees. We have
asked provinces to put a ceiling as to what they cannot go beyond.
However, the major challenge with these schools your Parktowns and
all these even in your off-lands schools, is their maintenance. They
would not be able to sustain those schools with subsidies from the
state. What we do in terms of quintiles, if it is a quintile 1
school, we give them up to R1 200 per learner. In those schools, we
give them just above R100 per learner, we don‘t subsidise. Even if
we subsidise, actually they are the ones that are keeping the
schools. Therefore, it is to really get the balance that if we would
move, we would ask them to remove fees which means we have to
compensate for those fees. That will mean we have to reduce in
poorer communities.
However, where you are quite right is using money and language to
exclude and different provinces are dealing with that, Chairperson.
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It is a major problem in your urban areas. The law also says if the
child qualifies – you stay in Rustenburg opposite the school – they
can‘t exclude you on the basis that you can‘t pay fees if you can
demonstrate that you can‘t pay fees. It is because some parents come
swinging a Mercedes Benz key but saying I want an exemption,
expecting a person driving a Toyota to pay for them. So, it is also
those things that we have to be dealing with on an ongoing basis.
Setswana:
Leloko Mokwele, e re ke tlhalose sentle. Ruri ke bothata ...
English:
... and we are trying to grapple with it and we are aware that it
is a problem. Nevertheless, it is to really try and find the balance
right by allocating more money to poorer schools not allocating
money to your affluent schools and getting parents to pay their way
to keep those schools in tact like those rugby fields and swimming
pools because we would not
be able to maintain them as a state.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We now come to question 106,
asked by hon Terblanche, question 106 ... [Interjections.] Yes, yes
hon Mokwele. We are now ... [Interjections.]
Setswana:
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TONA YA THUTO YA MOTHEO: A reye tlhe Mma. [Let‘s go please Ma‘am]
Question 106:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the question is around the
National Curriculum Statement and the upskilling of school learners.
The National Curriculum Statement for Grades R-12 is packaged per
subject and it is specified on what is to be taught, learnt and
assessed, term by term. It is based on a number of principles,
which, amongst others, include active and critical learning,
encouraging active and critical approach to learning rather than
rote and uncritical learning of given truths, high knowledge and
high skills.
In the further education and training, FET, band, besides academic
subjects, we are offering also 20 subjects which are focussing on
practical skills. These practical skills allow learners to gain
vocational skills as part of their schooling career, for example,
computer application technology, agricultural science, hospitality
studies, civil, electrical and mathematical technology. Compared
with international countries, we believe that the provisional
quality education in South Africa is an upward trajectory and the
2016 national ...
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Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, I just want to check whether we have a new
member in the House. There is a white man there and he is
intimidating us. He is wearing two glasses at the same time.
[Interjections.] So, I just want to check.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele. No, can you take
your seat. Can you continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: We are quite confident that our
system is on an upward trajectory. Our senior certificate confirms
that and we can give you statistics. Both our international and
regional results also prove that we are on an upward trajectory.
Even our Trends in Mathematics and Science Study, Timss, results
which we received last year confirmed that we are on an upward
trajectory and these are international results. So, we are also able
to compete.
What I really also want to underscore when it comes to international
studies - where it is always said we are at the bottom, only 39
countries out of 192 countries participated. You participate if you
trust yourself that you won‘t die in the middle of it. Even if you
can become number 39 it is fine. We are number 39; this is out of
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192 countries which didn‘t enter. Our education system is very
competitive internationally.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon
Terblanche? Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana?
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon presiding officer - the hon Chair
Nyambi, I wanted the Minister to finish her question or her response
to the member. I want you to rule as a presiding officer on the
statement made by hon Mokwele playing the race card on the hon
member, asseblief [please.]. Can you rule on that? In this House we
never talk of any white or black hon member or green or blue. Can
you rule as a presiding officer, please? So, I am black, do you ever
address me as a black hon member?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana?
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Please rule. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, let me ... Hon members,
the National Council of Provinces is the only House where we will
have special delegates, people coming from the South African Local
Government Association, Salga, and every time we have them in the
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House, they are welcome. When hon Mokwele raised a point of order, I
ruled on the spot that that was not a point of order. That is why I
allow the hon Minister to continue. Let‘s refrain from using any
unbecoming language. I am appealing to all of you, hon members. Hon
Terblanche? Hon Hatting?
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, members in this House, like you stated,
are hon members. To refer to a person here as ‗that white man‘ is
unacceptable and should be withdrawn. It cannot stand.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not in order. That is
why I have made a ruling.
Mr C HATTINGH: But the member must withdraw, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hatting, can you take
your seat? Hon Terblanche, let us have a follow-up question.
[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: I can‘t withdraw that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, can you make
a follow-up question?
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Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Isaac, you are out of
order. Can you continue, hon Terblanche. [Interjections.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me allow hon Terblanche
to make a follow-up question.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: I just want your fair and equal treatment
on that. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, let me deal with ...
Mpambo-Sibhukwana, I will come to you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: A white man cannot tell me that I am racist. A white
man! You must never ever say that. Never in your life, sir. You
cannot ... never tell me that I am racist. Being white, jissis! We
have actually done you a favour for you to be here. Jissis!jirre!
[Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat? Can
you take your seat, both of you?
Ms T J MOKWELE: This white people!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take a seat, both of
you? No, hon Terblanche, wait. Hon members! Hon Isaac! Hon Mokwele!
Hon members, if ever ... Hon members, hon Mokwele raised point of
order and I made a ruling. I said that was not a point of order that
she was raising and hon members wanted to take it further. If ever a
presiding officer has made a ruling and you are not satisfied with
it, there is a procedure that you have to follow. We can‘t allow the
House to degenerate and discuss whether someone is white or someone
is black. We are not here for that. Let us allow hon Terblanche to
ask a follow-up question. Hon Terblanche? [Interjections.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, can you
continue? [Interjections.] Hon Terblanche, you are protected.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, I just want to go back to
something that the Minister said ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, can you
continue with your question?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you Chairperson, in her response the
Minister said that she is quite comfortable or confident that the
quality of South African education ... you know, our pupils who get
through school, is up to scratch. Maybe the Minister can just answer
me. If pupils arrive quite often, they need to be put through extra
classes and stuff to read and write properly. I don‘t know how can
that be possible then. Chairperson, my real question - my follow-up
question is, ―I just want to know from the Minister whether she or
her department is going to build any new technical schools in the
current financial year.‖ Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Let me answer the last part. The
different provinces are building a number of technical schools since
we started with the three stream curriculum model. In some of the
old schools we have, for instance, in the Free State, we are reengineering. You will find that we are no longer offer academic
subjects at these schools and kids are referred to other schools
which are resourced because we have a fund for technical education.
So, there is a process of resourcing schools and building technical
schools in order to address our three stream curriculum model.
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In terms of why pupils are assisted, you know that if you ... Let me
say - just to explain that, there is always a correlation between
poverty and education. What it means is that kids who come from
affluent homes are able to get additional support from their parents
who are educated and enlightened. The school day is only six hours
and the other support comes from home. So, you will find that kids
who come from poor families need additional help because their
mothers, who are domestic workers, leave home at around six in the
morning and return back home at around 10 in the evening and their
kids don‘t get this additional support that they are supposed to get
outside school. There is no access to libraries or access to
resources.
There is always a correlation between kids of enlightened or
educated parents and uneducated parents. Educated parents‘ children
perform better because of the additional support they get from their
parents. The extra support that is given to learners who are
struggling has nothing to do with the curriculum because education
is about curriculum, it is about resourcing and it is about
teacher‘s qualities. By saying the education system is good we mean
the curriculum because whoever will compete with us or whatever will
make us compete internationally is the quality of our curriculum and
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not the performance of individual learners. We are giving learners
extra classes to put them on par with what we have set up as an
internationally recognised benchmark curriculum. Overall, our system
is ... What is the challenge is to support learners to reach that
bar that we have set up in the curriculum. It is a good education
system.
Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, one appreciates the assurance given by
the Minister on the quality of our curriculum. However, if we look
at the recent World Economic Forum Africa regional meeting and also
the discourse about the Fourth Industrial Revolution, are there
plans to adopt our curriculum so that our students will not lose out
on these global developments?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, there is a plan, that is why
one of the big things that we are introducing or we are phasing in
in the education system is this three stream curriculum model to
make sure that our children are given a qualification that enables
them to participate in this ever changing economic environment. It
is ongoing. There is a team of experts who are looking at what the
trends are internationally and on an ongoing basis and this helps us
to adjust and direct our curriculum to enable our kids to be able to
participate in the ever changing environment. So, we are not blinded
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to it but we participate in almost all international platforms to
make sure we are not left behind as a country and our curriculum
does not leave our kids behind.
Mr W F FABER: Hon Chairperson, it is really nice to speak to you,
Minister. Minister, when we were at Nkantolo - where Oliver Tambo
grew up in the Eastern Cape, we did oversight. If I mispronounced
it, hon Chair, I am wrong but please Minister, bear with me. We were
at this technical school as the NCOP oversight committee.
Chairperson, can you please, er ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, you are protected.
Continue.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, we went to a technical school and when we
were in a technical class, it was actually shocking to see that they
had no technical equipments. [Interjections.] Chairperson, I would
like to know if the Minister can explain to me how pupils can get
technical matric qualifications from schools if they don‘t have any
technical equipment to do technical subjects. How do you assess a
person to get a technical matric. Technical schools are quite a good
success rate. To me this is something I quite can‘t understand. If
the Minister can explain that to me and if she can say when will
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these technical schools be provided with the correct technical
equipments.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, after Nkantolo you should
also have gone to Curtis Nkondo school where SA Airways has donated
a plane through which ... or has been ... . When we say that we are
continuously resourcing technical schools, it does not mean that we
have finished. We are getting there. We will go to Nkantolo because
there are schools that we have resourced - there are quite many of
them. We have a partnership with BMW. Go to our schools, you will
find a brand new ... We also have a partnership with Toyota. We are
striking a partnership with the French. We are going to bring their
Citroens in our schools which are going to deal with all your French
cars.
Sepedi:
Mošito o tšwela pele, ntate. Le Nkantolo mošito o tla tšwela pele.
Mošito o tšwela pele.
English:
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson through you to the hon Minister,
thank you very much. I think this whole House and all the people
listening to us realises that education is a very complex matter.
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However, for the past few years, every time we raised questions and
held meetings on this, the department was forever reassuring us
about the quality of the curriculum and the quality of education and
all the efforts that have been made to improve the quality of
education. In this question you answered that they offer 20 subjects
to make sure that learners are being upskilled. The other hon member
also referred to the World Economic Forum, but I want to say in that
World Economic Forum Global Competitiveness report of 2016-17, South
Africa is rated as number 138 out of 138 countries - the last one on
the quality of our maths and science education. Hon Minister, can
you give us an answer in this House, ―By when can we expect an
improvement of the results of science and maths based on all the
efforts from the Department of Basic Education to improve this?‖
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, can I show the member that
education is a lifetime experience. We are going to be continuously
working towards perfection. We are educating our kids for jobs we
don‘t even know ourselves. It is going to be an ongoing journey. The
report about ... I don‘t know where you got the statistics from.
What we rely on is scientific assessed test - the ones that I know,
which are scientific and on Timss. I said only 39 countries
participated and not 182 or 192. So, there were results. I don‘t
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know where you get that from - the tests you are referring to and
the learners you said wrote them. Our learners sat for Timss, maths
and science and for Southern and Eastern Africa Consortium for
Monitoring Educational Quality, Sacmeq, exams.
The other stories which I don‘t know of are of the learners you said
wrote and I don‘t know if you have evidence for that. You can visit
our website. We have reports of internationally recognised tests;
scientific tools were used and results were brought. We saw
learners‘ marks and exam sheets and the results. The 198 or the 192
you mentioned are the some of the other stories I don‘t know of. I
don‘t know about the learners you mentioned who you said wrote at
that World Economic Forum. Our learners wrote in Timss and Sacmeq
and we are saying we are doing very well comparatively under the
circumstances of where we come from as this country.
Question 126:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, it is about retention
of MECs, unfortunately as the national Minister I don‘t appoint MECs
I just find them in your province, and four of them were changed in
one year so I receive them as I see them and work with them. So,
there is nothing we can do as Ministers because every sphere of
government is an independent sphere with all its powers. So, whether
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they are retained or changed we have very little powers around the
placement of MECs.
On the question of schools: when we no longer use school they are
public works assets. So as soon as we decommission a school and find
that we no longer have a use for it, we give it to the Department of
Public Works which then has to take decisions about the utilisation
of that school. As soon as we don‘t use the school we have to hand
it over to public works.
On the issue of them becoming white elephants, we do try to engage
with them but they are public works assets as soon as we no longer
use them. They are no longer our assets.
Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Ga ke na potso fela ke rata go tshwaela ka
Porofense ya Bokone Bophirima e e eteletsweng pele ke Rre Supra
Mahumapelo. E sa le a koba Mokhuduthamaga yo o neng a dira tiro e e
manontlhotlho a bo a thapa Mokhuduthamaga yo montshwa, o tla e la
tlhoko gore ...
English:
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... matric results for 2016 went down. So I think even if there is
nothing that you can do as a Ministry but in interrelation with your
department maybe you need to – at the political level or wherever try to save the nation because it is not about the position one is
holding, but it is about the African child. Secondly, Minister...
Setswana:
... dikolo tse dintsi kwa Bokone Bophirima tse e leng gore di
tlogetswe ka ntlha ya lebaka la go dira diphetogo, o fitlhele e le
gore sekolo se a tswalwa ...
English:
... I will cite an example about where I‘m staying in Mogwase.
Mogwase Middle School has been closed and learners from the school
have been moved to J M Ntsime High School. Those learners who were
at the middle school have been moved to the high school and the
classes they used are abandoned, but at J M Ntsime High School
classes are overcrowded.
They ended up using the mobile classrooms. I don‘t know how best you
can deal with this matter with your MECs; even if they can move but
they don‘t have to literally move. They can move strategically, but
the resources that has been there and useful for the community,
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should continue to be used; because you can see that the Department
of Public Works is an outcry everywhere you go, even the Minister of
Health when he comes, if we ask him about the clinics he will tell
us that it is because of the public works; public works is a
problem.
So, if we can maybe interact with your MECs at your provincial level
and see to it that we utilise these little resources that we have
for the betterment of the African people. Thank you very much,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, Chair. I agree with the
member on most instances and the facts have been - sometimes it is
really unfortunate that the MECs are changed frequently because it
does affect even the stability.
So I think I agree with her. What I have found - especially in the
North West as their strength, is that they have a very strong public
service. It is what kept that system going. They have one of the
best administration, a stable administrative system and skills that
were retained. So that is what has kept the dead province alive but
I agree with you.
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On closed schools, again it is poor planning and all sorts of
problems that we come across. You are quite right that the
rationalisation of schools is not only around numbers, it is around
leadership and other things to make sure that they are consolidated.
There can be a way of planning and doing things differently.
So let me agree with you that we have to raise some of the things
when we engage with their province; because sometimes we close
schools, not very long an informal settlement erupts and then the
school has been left and vandalised, then the next thing there is no
school.
So, I agree with you. Let me not go very far and say we will take
that up when we meet with the MECs.
Mr M CIROTA (Gauteng): Thank you, Chair. Chair my name is Mervyn
Cirota; I‘m the white man with the two sets of glasses ...
[Laughter.] ... I‗m from the Gauteng legislature ... [Interjection.]
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I have appropriately referred
to you as an hon member. Jaa!
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Mr M CIROTA (Gauteng: Thank you, Chair. Just a follow-up question
Chair, a concern and a question to the Minister: The derelict
schools bring about a situation where monies are returned to the
Treasury and this prevents schools from being fixed and built. Can
the Minister indicate what steps she is taking to ensure this
practice doesn‘t become more prevalent because it is a real issue in
Gauteng? Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon member, I will leave it
to the Minister. The follow-up question must be linked to the
original question, but I will leave it to the Minister.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I mean the member is
really linking things which are unrelated. Derelict schools and
money that goes back to the Treasury are unrelated. If you come from
Gauteng, derelict schools are schools that would have been abandoned
because of rationalisation and population decline. Therefore, the
school is closed. So it doesn‘t come with the Treasury.
If the money is returned to the Treasury it is because new schools
which were supposed to have been built have not been built. So, it
has nothing to do with derelict schools. You are quite right that
the member is out of line.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me take this
opportunity to thank the hon Minister of Basic Education. Thank you,
hon Minister. Hon Motswaledi, when you were not here we apologised.
When we started today, we decided to have the Minister of Justice
and Correctional Services, and the Department of Defence. They were
not part and they have disorganised us. Therefore, we apologise to
you but we ask for your indulgence. Now, we are starting with the
Minister of Human Settlements. You will follow after the Minister of
Human Settlements. We are very sorry for that. We have already made
an apology.
Question 66:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, thank you very much
for your indulgence. If only you could protect me from Minister
Motswaledi because daggers are drawn here. No, it is not good for
his health.
The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, you are protected.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson.
This is the answer to hon Mampuru. Hon member, Rural Housing Loan
Fund, RHLF was indeed established in 1996 to improve the housing
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situation for targeted rural households by providing them with
finance support through intermediary financial support systems. We
supply this to low-income housing which is set at R15 000 per month.
We have allowed this measure to enable people who are in rural areas
to improve their livelihoods. This resource can be used either for
effecting the extension of a house, fixing any impairments that may
be in the house, ensuring that the utility such as water, sewerage
and electricity are provided to the house, etc. So far, RHLF has
done us very proud. Since its inception, it has provided our rural
households with 540 621 incremental loans in the rural areas and the
total value of the disbursements is R1,7 billion.
We have now amalgamated the banks RHLF, National Housing Trust Fund
and NHFC and we will be launching the human settlements bank which
will consolidate all these aspects of what we call our development
banks. I have here a breakdown of the statistics and we will be able
to table this through you to the member who has asked the necessary
question to be broken down. Thank you.
Sepedi:
Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, a re lebogeng matsapa ao kgoro
ya gago e a dirago ka phethagatša se se boletšwego ke Tšhatara ya
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Tokologo ge e re lefase ke la rena, le dintlo di tlile go ba gona.
Kgoro ya gago re a e bona e leka ka mokgwa woo e ka kgonago go re fa
dintlo tša diRDP go re re swane le metsesetoropong. Re leboga le
yona kadimo ye le re fago yona gore re kgone go hlabolla maphelo a
rena. Potšišo ya ka ke gore ka gore šefa re a bona gore dintlo tša
diRDP tše le re fago tšona re kgona go di oketša - ebile tlhohlo ke
gore lefase le re agilego go lona diRDP tša rena ke le lennyane, re
direng ka tlhohlo ye ya go ipha naga. E nngwe tlhohlo e tla ka go
epa go go sa dumelelwago. Kua Tubatse ke tšwago, batho ba go epa
ntle le tumelelo ba šetše ba epa le ka mo malapeng a batho. Ke be ke
re naa tlhohlo ya go swana le ye re tlile go e fediša bjang, ge
motho a duma go oketša goba go mpshafatša ntlo ya gagwe - ge batho
ba go epa ntle le tumelelo ba šetše ba tsene ka gare ga malapa. Ke a
leboga.
English:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, the question now
goes beyond the scope of the purpose of RHLF. However, it addresses
a very important aspect that we are now trying to address. What do
we do to ensure that people in the rural areas are given the
necessary support? In this particular case hon Mampuru is indicating
that land invasions are increasingly becoming a serious problem for
people who own land in the rural areas. This is something that we
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are continuously looking at and seeing how we can improve and
support those people in the rural areas. One of the things that we
are trying to do is to find a way of giving title deeds to people in
the rural areas so that they are protected legally, and can legally
sue people who encroach on their land.
The loans that we give are not specified as I have indicated.
Therefore, in areas like that I would suggest that perhaps we could
start by making sure that we put a fence to delineate the area which
that particular person owns, and which will be supported by the
necessary documentation.
With regard to the RDP houses that you mentioned, we restrict them
to the extent that it is possible for the urban areas. This is
because in the rural areas, we actually find people who are very
proud to own land and expand on the value of the property that they
have. This is a kind of participatory citizen that we would like to
encourage.
To all the people who live in the rural areas, we are very grateful
for what they do to support us because they actually do these things
themselves to help themselves out of poverty. We would like to
extend the services which are extended through this loan to all
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those households in the rural areas whatever particular
circumstances there are. However, the legal invasions and
circumstances is something that we will take up now that it has been
pointed out and make sure that we can give certainty.
However, the problem that still remains in the rural areas and
perhaps this is the right place to raise it, is the right of
ownership for women. We would like to make sure that there is right
of ownership for women in the rural areas because those are the
people who actually look after our children. Those are the people
who look after houses when people of the male species go out either
on migrant labour or whatever it is. They are responsible for the
household.
We would like to propose, perhaps through this House, that we
recognise women in rural areas as co-owners of property. In towns we
did try to take a very radical step of providing title deeds to
women as opposed to men and the men were very angry. But the reason
is because finally, women are the heads of households and they raise
children. However, these are issues that, as we engage, we might
perhaps finalise them. Thank you.
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Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Minister, I just have a small follow-up
question. Is the low-income bracket now R15 000? Is it a new policy?
If it is a new policy, when did it come into effect? Thank you, hon
House Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: We improve it every time. It is
now R15 000, which means that you are outside that bracket, hon
member. The good thing about this R15 000 for a loan is that it
covers quite a lot of our professionals like teachers, nurses and
police persons who earn in that particular area.
When you go to the rural areas, it is amazing how many people have
actually taken advantage of this opportunity and improve their
houses. In the Eastern Cape you would think that you are driving
through towns when you go in the area of Umtata, Engcobo, etc. I
know this because I have built my own family home in Engcobo. From
East London to Engcobo, I just marvel at how far the civil service
in the Eastern Cape has improved their lives and we would like to
assist them to do that. Thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I am glad that the Minister has emphasised
the importance of having title deeds which is obviously one bottleneck that we have in the system for people to get access to small
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loans. The other bottle-neck may be proper funding of the Rural
Housing Loan Fund. The question then is: Has Treasury funded the
Rural Housing Loan Fund sufficiently?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: It is very difficult to answer
that one. Yes, we have sufficiently funded the Rural Housing Loan
Fund to the extent that, by now, we can boast of R1,7 billion that
have been given to rural housing loans. I think that is a very good
figure. We could increase it now that we have a bigger entity which
we have established. It will depend on the uptake from the rural
areas but there has not been a limit to how much money has been
available for the rural areas. Thank you.
Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Minister, the Rural Housing Loan Fund takes care
of the lower end of the market, i.e. the low earners. You‘ll correct
me if I am wrong. Under Finance Linked Individual Subsidy Programme,
Flisp you have the SA Home Loans. I just wanted to know. I don‘t
know whether you‘ll be able to give me the answer now. How much does
the Department of Human Settlements give to SA Home Loans; and to
what extent is it marketed to ensure that those people that can
benefit from the loans offered by that institution can benefit under
Flisp? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The Department of Human
Settlements does not directly give SA Home Loans any amount of
money. However, 50% of the money that is provided and is at the
disposal of the SA Home Loans comes from the Public Investment
Corporation, PIC which, as you know, is our pensions‘ investment
corporation which is a government entity. Therefore, we, as
government have 50% in the SA Home Loans entity.
We are now extending our reach to ensure that public servants are
provided with support by the state. This is a programme that we call
employee assistance housing scheme. We are going to start with
government employees to provide them with some kind of surety so
that they are able to get a loan from the bank. For instance, this
morning we were discussing at Ministers and Members of Executive
Councils Meeting, MinMec how we‘ll be able to revitalise Flisp.
As you know, Flisp allows government to give 50% of the deposit to
any individual. The problem we have is that 50% of that deposit
might be too high for any particular individual. Therefore, what we
do as government is to take on the totality of the guarantee for any
government-employed person.
We want to attract other entities which employ huge pools of people
who are paid below what is acceptable by the bank to come on board
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and join us in providing assistance to their employees through
Flisp. In this way, the employer will be able to use the salary of
the employee as part of the collateral which is given to the bank.
We will provide 50% through Flisp and we are working together with
the banks to ensure that, through this mechanism, we can revitalise
Flisp. But again, hon member, it does not apply to you because you
are already above that bracket.
Question 80:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Julius would like to know if
the waiting lists of all municipalities will be published; if not;
why not; if so; when? Hon Julius, in terms of the current
constitutional and legislative policy or regulatory requirements,
all administrative actions undertaken by a state organ must be fair,
just, equitable and transparent. Thus, the allocation of a household
from a waiting list into a house is an administrative act, which
must comply with the requirements both of the Constitution and
Promotion of Administrative Justice Act, 2000. Thus, as a matter of
good practice and to ensure compliance with the Constitution and
legislation both provinces and municipalities should be encouraged
to do and be supported to make waiting list allocation public.
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This is something that we are currently discussing, how do we make
this public. The first step we have taken is to ensure that we have
a common understanding with municipalities between what we term ‗a
needs list‘ to a waiting list to an approval‘s list.
We are now putting together our database and centralising our
database so that by the time a house or a beneficiary is approved,
it will be made public. We are considering a possibility of making
this public in the same way that the matric results used to be made
public through media. However, we are not sure what the reach is. We
are still involved in research, what is the reach of the normal
media that is used for matric results so that if it is a totality of
our scope, we will possibly use that same method, and of course we
would like to also access what the cost will be. But it is our
intention finally to make them public through the newspaper.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Minister, it was really the answer that I really
was looking for. I thank you for that. Corruption in housing
allocation is really a serious problem in this country. Government
officials, especially in local councils will take a bribe and people
will skip the queue and get the house of someone who is really in
need of that house. It‘s normally your elderly people that are being
robbed of the opportunity to get a house when they have awaited the
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house for about 10 to 12 years to get the opportunity to get the
house. So, thank you very much for it, Minister. I am not asking
follow-up question. I am just saying thank you. It is really
appreciated. It‘s a democratic land. We fought for this for some
years. You know that we mentioned it in our entire manifesto so far.
Thank you for that, Minister. Thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you for the comment.
Hon special delegate! No, not hon Makue.
Mr E MAKUE: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, is a special delegate,
hon Makue. You said there is a point of order. Okay, hon Makue.
Sorry, hon member.
Mr E MAKUE: Chair, hon Julius talks about corruption in local
government officials. The point of order that I want to table is
that, we hear about these all the time and we don‘t act on it. We
would kindly request the hon member through the DA take appropriate
action against those councillors.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, he was in order. Hon
Makue, hon Julius was in order.
Mr M CIROTA: House Chair, to the Minister, just arising from
commentary made, these new lists, Minister, will there be one
national list or will there be separate provincial lists as well and
how does one prevent duplication? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chair, we have established a
task team that will make sure that it is one list. Out of that list
list, it is possible to break it down into provinces. So, province
would have access to that.
We have at our disposal as a state various databases that we are
able to use. We are able to use Statistics SA. We are able to use
the information we have in Home Affairs. We are able to use the
information in Social Development because that is the entity that
deals with the indigent. So, we are able to access this and verify
the information that we have to make sure that it is as accurate as
is possible.
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Out of that provinces will be able to access their own list and be
able to verify the information that we have. We will continuously be
able to update this. If Home Affairs can do it, we can do it too.
Question 69:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Samka, this is a sad story.
Hon Samka wants to know if we are finding a permanent solution to
the fires in Hout Bay. On the 11 and 12 of March this year, yet,
again a large section of Imizamo Yethu was destroyed by fires,
killing three people and destroying 3 500 houses and displacing
15 000 people. The city was there together with all the resources of
the fire engines, etc. The following day the member of the executive
council, MEC, and myself went to the area to assess the level of
damage and see what can be done. We had very fruitful discussions
with the community there and we proposed various ways in which we
could put an end to this.
It had always worried me why it was that Imizamo Yethu that was
always afflicted by fires. Year in and year out there is a fire
there. It was explained to us that actually that area had been left
vacant by the people in Hout Bay because at that particular place is
a confluence of two wind streams, and when they get to that place
they come at a speed which if there is a fire it will be impossible
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for that fire to be put out. The way that our people are congested
around informal settlement, it makes very difficult for any fire
brigade or any assistance to be given to them in time. Therefore,
once one house catches fire invariably the whole settlement is on
fire. This one was particularly disasters.
Therefore, what we have done together with the city of Cape Town is
to develop a new way in which we will restructure Imizamo Yethu and
the community there has agreed to this. What it has agreed to is
that we will reblock the entirety of the place there and allow the
place to be reblocked so that we are able to get to the area using
fire brigades to put out the fire, get there and ensure that the
disasters do not cause health hazards beyond their own scope.
We are also doing a survey of the people who are there, actually
checking whether or not these are people who are eligible for
houses. Those who are eligible for houses we will prioritise and
ensure that we put them in proper houses. We have requested the
Human Settlements Development Agency to find land. It has found land
and we are in the process together with the community there of
ensuring that we can provide land for those who would like to build
houses, provide land where we can put our proper houses and ensure
that we reblock the area that is constantly under fire. Thank you.
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IsiXhosa:
Nks P C SAMKA: Sihlalo, ndicinga ukuba uMaXhamela undiphendule
kakuhle kakhulu kuba ungene nzulu wade wathetha ngento yokuba
bengurhulumente kazwelonke nomphathiswa wesebe ephondweni bakwazile
ukujonga ukuba yintoni enokuzisa isisombululo. Ndiyabulela.
Question 128:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: She is in the House. Hon
Mathevula would like to know whether we will liberate our people
from the colonisation system of settlements, if not, why not, and
when will the department build houses that are inclusive and what
are the other further relevant details. In 2004, we changed from the
concept of housing to human settlements, precisely so that we are
able to change the way that our people live. We call these
integrated human settlements where we would like to change the
special patterns of apartheid and create a new identity for South
Africans. Therefore, this policy which you call the decolonise
system we started in 2004. Perhaps you are too young to understand
what we are doing.
In 2004, we had this system, it is being in place. It is working
where it has been applied. We are actually even building better
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houses. I want it to bring to the attention of the hon Mathevula
that the houses that we build we often hear Ms Mathevula and her
colleagues complaining about the quality of housing that we build. I
would like to indicate that in March 2014, Ms Mathevula‘s party went
out to build a house for Sthandiwe Hlongwane and the house that you
have built fell apart two weeks after you had built it. [Laughter.]
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa Mutshamaxitulu. Holobye va hluleka ku
vulavula, kutani va vulavula hi leswobiha leswi hi nga swi endla
kambe letosaseka leti hi ti akeke a va vulavuli hi tona.
English:
You must also mention it. Hon Minister, my comment is ...
Xitsonga:
... xana ku hava ndlela leyi mi nga yi tirhisaka ku ...
English:
... to formalise the informal settlement so that people who are able
to save and build on their own they can be able to do that without
your intervention. Thank you very much.
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The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The next time I will come here, I
will vulavula [speak] like you. Yes, hon member, we are proposing
various ways in which we are going to eradicate informal
settlements, and one of the ways which we would encourage is
providing land and allocating the land and asking people to build
houses for themselves. Where we do this and where we have the
necessary oversight the product is much better and it is much
cheaper for the individual, it is of a better quality and it is
bigger and the individual actually participate in making sure that
the structure is of the kind that they would like. Therefore, we
would like the greater uptake and we call this process people‘s
housing process, PHP, and where it has worked it has been a great
success.
So, out there we are wanting to ensure that we partner with the
private sector if they own land so we can ensure that we have more
PHP. Where the state has land, this has particular relevant to the
Western Cape, whether it is provincial or municipality, we would
like them if that land is within the precinct of the city to give us
the opportunity to turn that land into land where people can live,
especially poor people who would have easy access thereby to the
city before they sell it to the private sector. I know that there
are members here who are listening and will make sure that that does
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happen in the Western Cape. We should not sell land within the
precinct of the city to the private sector when, in fact, we have so
many poor people who would want to have access and deserve to have
access to the city. It is the only way that we will measure as equal
citizens of this country. Thank you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: That land we must take it, Minister, it does not
belong to either of them. Hon Minister, thank you very much for
reminding us, some of us we were there in 2004, and some of us
participated in that project. However, by the look of things, hon
Minister, we will site an example in Cape Town where you were
proudly in Langa, to be specific and Grassy Park, where you were
proudly launching the project of that integrated ... I do not
know...
Setswana:
... ko ke nnang teng ba di bitsa difolete, ga ke itse fa e le gore
ke lefoko le le maleba go ka le dirisa. Fela ke batla go go bolelela
gore ...
English:
... our people are subjected ... it means those people that are poor
will never ever in their life time own a house or have a life that
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is free to say that I am owning a house because the manner in which
those settlements are made, they are made in such a way that we are
still repeating what the apartheid did. Apartheid put us in a
location called Modikwe and Moletsane, in that four-roomed house,
but we come as a democratic government and we also do the same. We
build the flats and, in Cape Town to be specific, those people that
are staying in those areas are staying in areas that are the ones
that are characterised with gangsterism, lack of education, poverty
and everything.
Therefore, our question basically was based on that. Now, we are
appealing to you, hon Minister, that you assist us to fast track the
issue of land. We know that the land in Western Cape is taken by
government because it owns it and it is being sold expensively to
private sectors so that our black people do not have access to the
land. They cannot be able to build houses. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, the case of
Langa and N2 is both an unfortunate case and a great success. It is
unfortunate in the sense that these are people who we identified
because every year, like Imizamo Yethu, there would be fires there
and people would die. Therefore, we thought let us upgrade this
informal settlement. In negotiating with the people of Langa, we
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proposed to them that we have land puzzles in other areas where they
could go and have stand alone houses. They refused. They were so
angry. They toyi-toyed and occupied the N2. If you were old enough
then you would remember that they occupied the N2. If you were old
enough then you would remember that they occupied the main road and
took us to court and it was a thoroughly disastrous affair.
We had to concede that what the people would want out of their own
living environment we would have to understand. Therefore, this was
the choice of the people, ours would have been different. However,
out of those circumstances what we did was the only way we could
accommodate all of those people there was to densify, which means to
go up. There are various typologies of houses on the N2. The first
blocks of 17 are flats which they rent. The next one are town houses
and the next are almost stand alone top-bottom houses, because we
had to accommodate all of those people by the decision of the courts
that is what we had to live with.
If we have more land and I hope that we are going to be successful
in the issue of the Tafelberg land to ensure that we can give it to
for social housing, but where we have land we would like that land
to be given to human settlements, I emphasised so that we are able
to build decent houses for our people so that they have easy access
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to the city. If within the alliance of the DA and the EFF and
whatever, and if in their caucuses this is something that can be
propagated, we would be extremely happy. Thank you very much,
Chairperson.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I want to tell the Minister that she should not
mislead the country. We do not have the alliance with the DA. It is
the same as in Rustenburg, Minister, maybe you do not know. You have
a coalition with the FF Plus. Therefore, do not just having say ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not a point of order.
Hon Mokwele, that is not a point of order. Hon Khawula!
Mr M KHAWULA: Tit for tat. Hon Chairperson, can you please stop tit
for tat.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, you are
protected. Can you ask a follow-up question?
Mr M KHAWULA: Yes, Chair. Hon Minister, I am more interested in the
house that fell apart in two weeks. What was wrong with the house?
What corrective measures were made by the department? It is a
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serious issue, a house in two weeks falling apart. Thank you very
much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: In the interest of time I will
give hon Khawula the newspaper clipping so he can educate himself.
Thank you.
Sepedi:
Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, ge ke theeleditše, Tona, kgoro
ya gago e na le maikemišetšo a mabotse go fetola maphelo a rena. Re
thušega bjang re le baetapele kua dikarolokgethong tša rena go
hwetša tekolo ya naga ka gore ke ye nngwe ya ditlhohlo tše di re
tlaišago. Re swanetše go tseba gore lefase le o bolelago ka lona re
a le hlokomela, le gore re se ke ra ba ra le rekiša gore kgoro ya
gago e tle e kgone go kaonafatša maphelo a batho ba rena. Re
matlafala bjang ge re kgona go humana tekolo ya naga gore ge re
tlile go bolela le lena re re: ―Lefelo šele, kaonafatšang maphelo a
lena,‖ re be re bolela se re se tsebang. Ke a leboga.
English:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I am so glad that somebody who is
fluent in Sesotho is also struggling with the term ―land audit‖
because sometimes when you talk technicalities you have this
problem. We have an entity called Human Settlements Development
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Agency. For us this is the entity we use to assist us procure land
and make sure that we are able to have this land for housing
development purposes. We are still struggling with land audit. We
are struggling because we are not the main department responsible
for land in government.
Therefore, we have to be dealing continuously with three other
departments which is the Department of Public Works, the Department
of Rural Development and Land Reform and ourselves. I do not know if
we have reach the point where we have a totally tip of the audit.
However, for the purposes of the land that we would like to use for
housing purposes, we would very much like any partnership we can
have with the community to ensure that we can do a land audit, but
our agency that does it for us is in human settlement is Human
Settlements Development Agency, HDA. At an appropriate time you can
call HDA for an imbizo to your community so that ...
Sepedi:
... re matlafatše ...
English:
... your own efforts to ensure that you can assist us. I hope that I
answered the question.
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Question 109:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, hon Mohapi would
like to know what action is been taken to assist Moqhaka Local
Municipalities to ensure alignment with the township register and
etc. The opening of township registers are a result of townships
established in order address housing backlogs in municipalities as
illustrated in the municipal housing chapters.
The Free State Department of Human Settlements has accelerated the
opening of outstanding township registers to assist in the housing
delivery process and to enable beneficiaries to gain access to title
deeds in their properties.
Further, an informal settlement upgrading chapter which forms part
of the housing sector plan and ultimately in the Integrated
Development Plan, IDP, was completed for Moqhaka Local Municipality
in 2013-2014. The plan seeks to address issues of alignment of the
planning and funding of the development of informal settlements by
articulating a development response for each informal settlement
costing and activities over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework,
MTEF, period. These find expression in the municipal IDP which
facilitates the funding from different municipal departments.
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The national departments through the development agency forms part
of this IDP or SDP steering committee to ensure alignment between
special planning part of this together with the free master special
plan. A department through the Housing Development Agency, HDA, has
completed a human settlement strategy and provincial master plan and
the master plan will be provided and it provides a backbone of all
our policies and the direction that will be followed by the Moqhaka
Local Municipality.
The human settlement strategy makes recommendations of increasing
bulk infrastructure funding for areas like Moqhaka Local
Municipality to ensure enough support for provision of integrated
human settlements. The housing delivery constraints and challenges
alluded to in the documents relate to; firstly, insufficient funding
and lack of resource capacity. Secondly, weak co-ordination between
intergovernmental departments and municipalities and the cumbersome
procurement processes. I have a very extensive response to this
which I can hand over because this is a very specific question about
Moqhaka Local Municipality. And this can be given to the person who
has asked the question.
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Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, thank you Minister about your explanation
I don‘t think we need any question.
IsiXhosa:
Makhe silinde ngolu hlobo utsho ngalo...
English:
...at least there is progress. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): hon Essack is not in the
House – Ok. We now come to question no 97. It‘s your last question
today from hon Essack. He just got now; he was not even in the
House.
Question 97:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, hon wants to
know about the backlog in the issuing of title deeds. I have just
come straight from Ministers and Members of the Executive Councils
Meeting, Minmec, where this was a major issue because we know just
how much we all are agitated around the issue of title deeds.
We have agreed in the Minmec that we shall establish an urgent task
team to deal with the backlog that we have. The MECs have agreed
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that they will deal with the backlog that they are responsible for.
Most of the MECs have been in place since 2014-15, 2015- 2016, 201617 and they are responsible for making sure that by the time we
leave office in 2019; there will be no backlog for this particular
period. They are also responsible for making sure that any house
that is built, instead of a happy letter being given, a title deed
will be given at the point at which the house is allocated.
We, as the national department has set up a task team to ensure that
we can deal with the backlog that has accumulated going back to pre
1994 era. The totality of the backlog that we have is quantified in
a document which I can give to you where you can see per province
what the backlog is for the years that you have been asking about
and also you are able to go back to the pre 1994 to understand the
levels of the backlogs that we are dealing with. It is a huge
responsibility that we have taken upon ourselves and we have given
ourselves two weeks within which to work out how we can deal with
this backlog so that by the time that we get to the end of 2019
there shall be no backlog in this country. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you for your detailed
explanation and I am grateful with what you have just explained.
Flowing from that obviously, it‘s a fact that now in the City of
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Johannesburg, of course, Mayor Herman Mashaba has already
distributed three and half thousands title deeds. Flowing from what
you just mentioned I would like ask what plans then perhaps are
there in place based on the report that you have just alluded to,
hon Minister, what plans are there in place to perhaps reprimand
those municipalities that have shown somewhat slow progress in title
deeds delivery and also to encourage those that have shown good
progress in this regard, the delivery of housing and of title deeds?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, hon Essack wanted to
indicate that hon Mashaba has already given three and half thousand
title deeds to families. Those are the three and half thousand title
deeds that he found on his desk when the previous administration
left.
The reason why it had taken so long to distribute them was the
difficulties inherent in that. What hon Mashaba would not have told
you is that the fourth house that he went to he did not find the
owner of the title deed he had that related to that house. That is
what happens with some of the problems that we were dealing with.
Where there is a change over from the time that the house was given,
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to the time that the title deed is ready; and these are problems
that we constantly have to deal with.
However, what we are doing to encourage municipalities that actually
deliver on time those title deeds, is to ensure that we are able to
raise the resources necessary because they are able to use their
budget. The more they use their budget the more resources they get
to ensure that we can enable them to do this faster. So, for hon
Mashaba, once he finds the rightful owners of the title deeds we
will raise the amount of money that we give for this purpose to him.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, hon Minister, I am not sure whether you
are aware that most of the farms in the country don‘t have title
deeds. That is an indication that those lands are being occupied
illegally because the owners don‘t have the title deeds. He does not
even know where did he buy the farm from, and who were the original
owners of those farms. Yet they continue to do whatever business of
the day that they are doing in those farms.
So, my question is, do you perhaps have a mechanism where you also
don‘t audit our people in the informal settlement and also those
farmers that are staying illegally in those pieces of lands - they
can also have that title of being called informal settlements in
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informal land. And drastic steps are taken against them from your
department and from the relevant department to make sure that when
we need land to build houses for our people we don‘t struggle. Thank
you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, yes, as we are
conducting land audits together with the Department of Rural
Development, we will be making sure that we audit all the land that
ordinarily will belong to the state. We only at the moment have
rights over land that belongs to the state. We would be requiring
that in cases where a title deed is required for a farm this does
not resides with us it resides with the Department of Rural
Development and Land Reform.
However, I think that where we will find that state land has been
illegally taken from us, we will take the necessary steps to evict
those people through the right processes. I don‘t know if these are
necessarily illegal but if we find that they are illegal we will
evict them and ensure that the land belongs to the state. Please
allow me to indicate that anybody who owns land and would like to
prove – should we do an audit to prove that they own the land would
have to provide us with a title deed. If they don‘t have the title
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deed then they would have to explain how they managed to get the
land. So ... [Interjections.] ... please protect me!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are protected hon
Minister. Hon Mokwele, the protection that you get must also be
accorded to the Minister.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Yes, so, in the process of our
doing land audits if we come across land that has been taken
illegally and is used illegally therefore obviously we would be able
to it back. But the question that the hon member is asking will be
best directed to the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform.
I could convey it to him that there is a young woman, here who is
very interested to have a discussion with him around certain ...
[Interjections.] Then I am sorry to enter the sphere of two people.
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, in the area that I spent my youth in which
is Kliptown but also the area in which I presently have the pleasure
of serving government in the greater Sophiatown region, we find that
there is a common problem that many of the tenants can‘t prove that
they are children of the original occupants of those homes and
therefore have great difficulty in the processes of acquiring the
title deeds. Minister, you said you have had this meeting with the
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MECs; can you help us, to say, what are the main obstacles with
regard to the issuing of title deeds that you have picked up so that
we can also then help members in those communities that we serve so
that they conform to the legislative requirements?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chairperson.
I also come from the area of Kliptown and that is my constituency
office. I know the problem that you talking about very well. The
problem we have with houses that come from pre-1994 era, these are
the houses that we gave to our people and we call them discount
scheme is that by now we are dealing with a third generation. And
therefore, even if we were to have a title deed it would be very
difficult to find a single individual within the family or within
various levels of the family who would own that particular title
deed.
The resolution we have taken is that for most of these houses we
will create what is called a family title deed so that the title
deed does not belong to you as an individual but belongs to the
family. So, your family will have a title deed and in that title
deed will be the beneficiaries of this house or those people who
will benefit from this house and that house may not be sold unless
all of these people are in agreement. That is the only way in which
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we are able to solve these problems, because otherwise we are bobbed
down in an area which does not allow government to intervene.
The social fabric that we find around families and all of those
things does not lend its self to easily engagement by government. It
is better solved by the family itself. So, we have opted for a
family title deed in that case. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): On behalf of the Presiding
officers allow me to take this opportunity to thank you hon Minister
for availing yourself to answer questions in this august House
called NCOP. [Applause.]
Hon members, we will now revert back to hon Motsoaledi, he is
heading in. He is just at the door, the books are here.
Hon
Dikgale, you can come and take us through the next question to be
done by the Minister of Health, Dr Motsoaledi.
Question 118:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, I thought it is the House
that has to apologise to me, not the other way round. I hear you
saying my apology was accepted. I accepted the apology from the
House because I have been here for long. Anyway, hon members as you
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know, South Africa has more than 3,7 million people on ARVs. The
patients of ARVs medication used to take large number of tablets,
two to three times a day. This means that some patients used to take
as many as nine tablets per day. Needless to say, they would
experience lots of side effects and the level of compliance was
hence diminished.
In April 2013, we introduced what is called fixed-dose combination
regime, FDC, whereby a patient is required to take only one tablet
per day because an FDC is a combination of three ARVs in one. It is
a combination of a drug called Tenofovir, TDF, a drug called
Emtricitabin, FTC, and the last one is Efavirenz (EFV). This
combination revolutionarised HIV and Aids treatment.
Because of this combination, there are fewer side effects and the
cost also dropped at that time. It used to cost us R130 to treat one
patient. When we introduced a fixed-dose combination, it cost us
only R89. Of course, that is the time when the Dollar-Rand exchange
rates were still favourable. Now there is another revolution that is
in the offing. This is called advanced study, which began early this
year.
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In this study, it is hoped that in the three drugs that form the FDC
combination, the study wants to replace two. They want to replace
Tenofovir with a new drug called Tenofovir Alafenamide. They also
want to replace Efavirenz with a new drug called Dolutegravir or
Raltegravir.
Once that is achieved, we will be having a new combination. The
importance of this new combination will be: That the side effects
will be fewer; but we are going to save R100 000 per annum in the
present plan of HIV/Aids treatment. Thank you very much
Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much, hon Minister, for the response.
Just one follow-up question! In fact, I had one follow up on the
impact of the costs but now I want to check: What is the impact in
terms of the compliance or intake by the patients?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: We think compliance is still going to be the
way it is because with the fixed- dose combination, compliance
improved tremendously. You can imagine, not in HIV and Aids only: If
you are required to take a particular medicine three times a day, it
might not be that you don‘t comply but you just forget. It is too
much because you must take it in the morning, then during the day
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and during the evenings. Some days you will visit somewhere. You
will come from meetings very late, you will forget.
However, if you are required to take only one, you will decide that
you take it everyday when you wake up. As long as you wake up of
course, you will take one. Then, that is compliance – it is 100%
compliance. So, that is why I say it has revolutionarised the
treatment.
But also, there is an incentive in taking the fixed dose because
patients feel fewer side effects, whereas in the past they were
reluctant because it made them tired. They would maybe want to rest
for a day from it, but with one which has got fewer side effects,
people are encouraged to take it, there is no chance of forgetting
and it is not inconvenient.
Remember, this is something that might be looked upon as simple.
People had to go around medicines in their bags, with packets of
tablets, and some people were not very eager to be asked question.
However, this one you take it at home, you leave it there and you
will see it again the following day. So, the level of compliance has
improved dramatically.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, very much hon
Minister. Hon members, we will jump Question 83, asked by hon Faber
who is not in the House, and go to Question 119, asked by the hon T
K Mampuru. Over to you, hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I don‘t know whether I will be
out of order but I don‘t want to waste the time for this House. Hon
Faber‘s question does not even belong to us; it belongs to Social
Development. So, please direct it there in future.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Fortunate enough, he is not
in the House, hon Minister. That is why he ran away. He noticed that
he was not relevant. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: So, we are going to hon Mmapuru‘s question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, Question 119!
Question 119:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Mampuru, thank you very much for asking
this extremely important question because it gives us an opportunity
to give clarity to the House. Ever since the Health Ombudsperson‘s
report, people think nothing has been happening, perhaps because we
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haven‘t reported on anything yet. So, your question will give that
opportunity. Firstly, let me start by saying section 88(a) of the
National Health Act 61 of 2003, as amended in 2013, states that:
Any person aggrieved by the decision of the office, or by the
finding and recommendation of the Ombud in relation to a matter
regulated by this Act; or a person acting on his/her behalf, may
within 30 days of him/her gaining knowledge of the decision, lodge
a written appeal with the Minister.
It goes on further to say: If the Minister receives an appeal, the
Minister must then appoint an ad hoc tribunal to come and hear this
matter. That ad hoc tribunal must consist of three people: One, it
must me chaired by a retired judge of a High Court or a retired
Magistrate; two, there must be two other people who have got
expertise in the health care industry who will help. The tribunal
will hear the case. They might reverse or vary the decision of the
Health Ombud.
Now, the Health Ombud‘s report, as you will remember, was released
on 1 February 2017. Consequent to that, some people were fingered.
They then gave indication that they would like to lodge an appeal.
In terms of the Act, I appointed the Tribunal which is chaired by
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the retired Judge President of the Northern Gauteng High Court,
Judge Bernard Ngoepe. He is assisted by a retired professor of
Paediatrics from the University of KwaZulu-Natal, Prof Hussein
Coovadia and a retired professor of psychiatry from the University
of Cape Town, Prof Brian Robinson. They had formed this Tribunal.
People who have indicated that they would like to appeal are: The
suspended HOD of Gauteng Department of Health, Dr Barney Selebano;
the suspended Director of Mental Health in Gauteng, Dr Makgabo
Manamela; the Tshwane District Chief Director of Health, Mr M Pitsi,
and two NGOs called Takalani and Mosego Home.
Since then, there has been a flooding of activity and exchange of
correspondence between some of these prospective appellants and
Office of Health Standards Compliance, the Health Ombud, the
Minister of Health and even the tribunal once it was appointed. The
exchange of the correspondence relate mostly to these appellants or
prospective appellants claiming that they are unable to submit their
appeals because they need certain information from the Ombud which
they believe is necessary and the Ombud was of a different opinion.
So, once such a case actually landed up in the High Court, whereby
myself as the Minister, the Health Ombud, the Premier of Gauteng and
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the Office of Health Standards Compliance were taken to court by the
suspended HOD of Gauteng Department of Health, demanding that they
be furnished with this information and that the Premier of Gauteng
must stop the disciplinary action until the finalisation of the
appeal process.
On 22 March 2017, the High Court struck this matter off the roll.
So, as things stand, by Friday last week, the appeals that we have
received are as follows: From the suspended Director of Mental
Health; two, from the Chief Director of Health Services in Tshwane;
three, from the two NGOs – Takalani and Mosego Home.
Currently, the parties – that means the appellants and the
respondents – are exchanging pledges. These pledges mean: Founding,
answering and replying affidavits. Once the appellants submit their
documents, the tribunal will set the date for the hearing and I am
hoping it is in the next few days, not weeks.
In the next few days Judge Ngoepe will set the date because all
these things, including the court cases, have already been
completed. Then, we will hear whether eventually the appeals are
upheld or are changed in terms of the Act. Thank you very much.
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Sepedi:
Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, mabarebare ga a age motse, Tona.
Mo ditabeng re bone o tšwelela ka ditaba tše di bontšhago gore o ka
re Molekgotlaphethiši wa tša Maphelo o tshela a mangwe a magato ao
le mo laetšego, a go re balwetši bale ba kua Esidimeni ba swanetše
ba tlošwe go tloga go tulo ye e itsego go ya go tulo ye nngwe - o ka
re bona ba dira tše e sego tšona. Ke be ke kgopela gore ka se sebaka
re tloše mabarebare ao a fihletšego ditsebeng tša batho gore re tšwe
ka mo re kgotsofetše, Tona. Ke a leboga.
TONA YA TŠA MAPHELO: Modulasetulo, ke thoma go a kwa mabarebare ao,
ga ke a tsebe. Ga ke tsebe gore a tšwa kae. Se ke se tsebago ke gore
re na le komiti ya ditsebi, ditsebi tša malwetši a monagano,
badirelaleago, batlhathakgopolo, baofisiri ba tša tikologo, ba e
lego gore re ba beile felo mo go bitšwago ...
English:
... National Institute for Commmunicable Diseases. It is an
operational centre. They are sitting there with three members
representing the families. These three members are there full time.
Two of them were employed. We even wrote to their employers - one of
them is the state; the other is Absa bank – to release them so that
they sit there on a full time basis. Every step that is being taken,
they participate. Every now and then, they call me and the Premier
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of Gauteng to give us a report back. We had such a report back two
weeks ago. I have not heard of anything else. Things are moving very
smooth. The only small problem that we encounter, which I think
appears in the newspapers, is that we are not able to remover all
the patients as the Ombud has instructed because some of the NGOs
ran to court to interdict us. Some influenced the relatives to
refuse. As I am speaking today, we had to send police to one NGO
this morning, but they only collected some of the patients. Two of
them refused and their families stopped them from doing so. Now,
what we have to do is to go to the Mental Review Board. So, it is
not the MEC who is not following the procedures. She is following
them to the letter and reporting to us. The families sat in that
meeting. They agreed with every step and they are aware that some of
the family members resist the movement of these patients.
So, today we have been able to call police because we want to save
those patients. The MEC hasn‘t done anything outside capacity. Late
last week, she also reported to the Ombud. This process is being
carried on very diligently and we are satisfied. We are about to
write a report to the Speaker of the NA to explain to her all the
steps that we have taken up to this far. Thank you.
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Mr J W W JULIUS: Lives had to be lost, hon Minister, for
communication to be increased. You knew about this since 2015 when
certain NGOs warned you: That this centre was about to close and
they will move people. In that instance you agreed that if they
changed or removed patients from the Life Esidimeni Centre in
Randfontein, they must be placed in an equally equipped centre like
Life Esidimeni Centre in Randfontein. However, that did not happen,
Minister. Instead, we subsequently learnt that you didn‘t know when
they patients were actually removed by the Gauteng Health
Department. With all this happening, five more patients died after
the report of the Health Ombudsman. What I want to know is: Will
this be included in the inquiry because it happened after the report
of the Health Ombudsman? Who will be held accountable because we now
have a new MEC of Health? It still happened; these people still died
at these centres. We have the Premier of Gauteng who is not
implicated in anything; and we have you as the Minister who is not
implicated in anything. Yet, you knew about this from 2015. I find
it very difficult to believe that you cannot be held accountable for
these peoples‘ deaths or the removal of patients to these
unregistered centres because as the Minister of Health nationally,
you are supposed to know what is happening in your department. You
waited for the Health Ombudsman... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Your time has expired, hon
Julius!
Mr J W W JULIUS: Can I rap up my question, hon Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Please! Please come up with
your question.
Mr J W W JULIUS: I want to know, hon Minister: Would you say at this
instance that you didn‘t know about these patients being
transferred; how can we accept that you cannot be held accountable;
and will you ask the Minister for a commission of inquiry into this
so that we can get to the full truth of this matter? Thank you,
Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, I think that
was a comment but I will leave it to you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The first part of all his statement, he was
just reading the answer I gave to the National Assembly. The things
he was saying were written by me, answering to a DA question,
outlining what had happened. I was surprised when a member of the DA
responded as if it‘s new. Everything that I wrote in that reply is
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here in the Ombud‘s findings – the annexure and everything. It is
here, my answer was not new.
It is here, found in the Ombud‘s findings: About who he questioned;
what they said when he questioned them; whether they told the
Minister or not; and what the MEC responded with. It is all here. I
was just responding to the court cases as they have happened. You
can go to this report, you will still read that and get the
findings.
Also, I am not sure why the DA likes jumping the gun here. They are
calling over for a judicial commission of inquiry which has been
answered for in the National Assembly but two judges are already
involved in this whole saga. I don‘t know why the want the third
judge. The first judge is their judge of the appeal, the second
judge is going to be the judge who in terms of Recommendation 18 of
the Ombud‘s report must sit with the families to look for
alternative dispute resolutions. That judge has already been
appointed but I am not at liberty to announce the name of the judge
because certain things need to be finalised first. Thirdly,
magistrates are going to get involved because for each and every
death there is going to be a full inquest by a magistrate. If
anybody is guilty, including myself, it will come out from there.
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There is going to be not a single death that is not going to be
accounted for. The DG of the national department and the DG of
Gauteng are heading these teams. They have already met the
commissioner of police on this matter because SA Police Service is
investigating. The National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is going to
get involved as well. So, before the second judge finalises on the
dispute resolution mechanism, in front of him must be placed a file.
The file will bear the results of an inquest – an investigation - by
a seating magistrate who will enquire what happened until the death
of each and every patient, and reach finality.
I am not sure why the DA is jumping the gun believing nothing is
going to happen, we need another third judge and we need this and
that. No, I don‘t think it is necessary: The Ombud‘s report is very
clear about what is being investigated; and who has been pointed
out. The second judge will decide whether that is valid or not. The
third judge/magistrate will determine exactly how each and every
patient died. Most of those things are in this report of the Ombud.
Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
Minister. Before I allow the hon Mokwele to come up with a follow-up
question, the hon Faber is in the House. He has indicated that when
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we were looking for him, he was out in the loo. [Interjections.]
Please, allow me to continue. I am chairing, hon members. The advice
that I wanted to give to you hon Faber is that you did not lose your
chance. Actually, the Minister has advised that we tell you to
redirect the question to the social cluster because it belongs to
the Department of Social Development. Thank you.
Setswana:
Mme T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga Tona ka dikarabo tse o ntseng ore fa
tsone, mme re etse tlhoko re le mokgatlho wa EFF ...
English:
... that always where human rights have been violated in South
Africa, ...
Setswana:
... batho ba eleng gore ba fiwa kotlhao go feta batho botlhe, e nna
...
English:
... officials, including in the matter of Life Esidimeni, if I may
single it out. We allow political leaders to go scot free. There is
no punishment, even if ...
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Setswana:
... dipatlisiso ga di tlhagise gore Tona kgotsa MECs o bonwe
molato, mme botho jwa rona jaaka puso, baeteledipele, baemedi ba
batho re a reng ...
English:
... when officials are always the ones that get punished in all the
commissions. You can cite the Marikana Commission of Inquiry and the
very same issue that we are dealing with now. Thanks.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: It might be true for other commissions - I
am not here to answer for them - but it is not true for this report
of the Health Ombud. What you are saying is not true.
Sepedi:
Ga se nnete taba yeo! Motho wa mathomo yo pego ye e mmonego molato,
ke radipolitiki. Ke yena wa mathomo ...
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Modulasetulo, e reng ke
bolele le MmaMokwele. MmaMokwele, theeletša Tona, re dutše re
theeleditše wena. [Tsenoganong.] Re a leboga. Tšwelang pele, tate.
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TONA YA TŠA MAPHELO: Ke yena Monamodi wa Setšhaba go tša Maphelo
[Ombudsman for Health] wa mathomo yo a boletšego gore magato a
swanetše a tšewe, a ba a bolela gore go tšewe magato a mohuta mang.
English:
But, as you know, the night before the report was released, the MEC
resigned from her job because the Ombud report here was clear that
the person must be removed or they must look into whether the person
is fit to hold office or not. That is a politician. I don‘t know how
many other politicians you are looking for. So, you are not telling
the truth.
Sepedi:
Ga o bolele nnete ge o re dipego di gatelela bašomi ba mmušo fela.
English:
Secondly, the Ombud went on in this report to outline what they
found out from the investigation and what the punishment must be for
each of the people that are involved in this matter. I have already
mentioned that there are going to be tribunals chaired by a retired
judge. I have also already mentioned that there are going to be
inquests by the magistrate. When a magistrate does an inquest, they
want to find out who did wrong and where. If they found that the
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people who did wrong a politicians, we are not going to be able to
stop them – I don‘t know whether you pre-empt it – so this report by
the Ombud is not the end. The Ombud himself said that after the SA
Police Service have investigated, they must submit the results of
their investigation tot the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA. The
National Prosecuting Authority will decide – neither the Minister
nor the commission – the prosecuting authority will decide who must
get prosecuted. I don‘t know why you are itching that ... You want
to choose. In other words, we must be prosecuted according to your
judgement. Then, what is the need for results of all these processes
if you want to choose who to prosecute on your own. Thank you.
Question 72:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I thought the coalition between the DA and
the EFF is about municipalities but now it looks like it extends to
other things. House Chairperson, to the hon Khawula, 350 ambulances
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon member ...
[Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Am I protected?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon Mokwele. Hon
Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, please do not drown the Minister. Continue hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon House Chair, I am not sure what the word
―unused‖ means to hon Khawula because as far as I am concerned, 350
ambulances were procured for the 2010 Fifa World Cup. These
ambulances were fully commissioned and deployed into emergency
operation prior to the commencement of the World Cup.
They were even showcased publicly and dispatched to Durban,
Pietermaritzburg, Potchefstroom and Empangeni where there were world
cup activities in the form of practices or teams relocating to the
area.
After the World Cup the ambulances were proportionally dispatched to
the 11 districts of KwaZulu-Natal. So, when he says unused
ambulances I do not understand whether he means they were dispatched
there and parked by those hospitals or clinics but they have been
active since the World Cup as far as I am concerned. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson, I think the Minister is
misinformed. The KwaZulu-Natal NCOP delegation together with the
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members of the provincial legislature, MPLs, from the province had a
provincial week. Amongst other concerns that were given by the
Sisonke District, which is now called Harry Gwala District since the
last quarter of last year, was that - at instances, patients suffer
which even leads to death because of non availability of ambulances.
So, when the Minister says ambulances were distributed
proportionally, what kind of proportion does not give another
district ambulances to be able to service communities because there
is a shortage of ambulances in KwaZulu-Natal districts.
What I am saying is that there are ambulances lying unused in
Wentworth whereas districts are suffering shortages of ambulances.
That is what I am talking about.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I think the hon Khawula asked a wrong
question there because the question was about 350 unused ambulances
and I have outlined how the ambulances were used. It was not about a
shortage. It does not mean that if 350 ambulances were dispatched
there might not be a shortage; there might be. You should have asked
a question about the shortage of ambulances in Sisonke. The question
was answered and I said in 2010 the ambulances were dispatched to
every district proportionately. I never said that after they were
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dispatched then they were adequate all over. That is a second
question you should have asked. But I have responded to the the
first one about unused ambulances - they are being used, full stop.
Question 85:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The question is about shortage of medical
equipment and chronic medication as well as ineffective management
at Rob Ferreira Hospital in Mpumalanga. Just like the issue of
ambulances, it might be difficult for me to stand here and say all
the equipment is adequate in every hospital but I do not think we
have experienced an undue shortage in Rob Ferreira. But be that as
it may, from the National Tertiary Services Grant we have set aside
R10 322 000 for the 2017-18 financial year to buy more equipment for
Rob Ferreira. That is the first thing we have done.
With regards to medications, we also do not know which chronic
medication unless the member can specify. I am saying this with all
the confidence in the world because since we have experienced the
problem of drug stock out - I‘m sure you no longer see it in the
press even from section 27 which used to have a special committee
dealing with drug stock out - We instituted two systems: One is
called Stock Visibility Solution, SVS, which has been instituted in
all the clinics in the country whereby a nurse will use a special
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cell phone to scan the code on the medicine every week. They will
then tell us if there is a stock out.
For hospitals we have the Rx Solution and this is how it works:
Every time medicine is prescribed and dispensed at the dispensary it
is subtracted from the total stock. That means that in the computer
you will say, for instance, I have 100 Panado packets. If one packet
is dispensed it gets subtracted and it says 99, then 98 and when it
arrives at a particular number, maybe 50 or so, the computer
automatically puts in a message which we get from the centre in
Pretoria, regardless of where the hospital is as long as it has the
RX Solution. We get that information every week. By the end of last
week the Rx Solution system did not report a shortage from Rob
Ferreira to us unless the system is no longer working.
What we know about Rob Ferreira, with regards to the issue of
management, is that last year around June the Health Professions
Council warned the Mpumalanga Department of Health that they will
never allow them to train interns because there is lack of
supervision for the interns and they don‘t think that is adequate.
Since that time we insisted that the Mpumalanga Department of Health
must correct this mistake and they did. They hired 10 medical
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officers, one gastroenterologist, two orthopedic surgeons and one
sessional psychiatrist for the purpose of supervisions of interns at
Rob Ferreira. That issue has been resolved and at the beginning of
this year the Health Professions Council gave them a go ahead. That
is why there are 44 doctors doing internship in Mpumalanga. Thank
you.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: House Chairperson, this question is also
based on the recent visit that we did at Rob Ferreira in Mpumalanga.
We were with the hon MEC, Gideon Mashego, when we walked the streets
there and witnessed that even the TR system is not working very
well.
People who were there with us from six in the morning were there
until 12 o‘clock. We interacted with the people and Gideon Mashego,
the MEC of Mpumalanga was with us. There is no reason to be
defensive in this. Hon Minister, I know that Rob Ferreira is not the
only hospital, across the nine provinces, with these challenges. The
chronic medication you wanted specified is for diabetes, high blood
pressure and all that. They were saying that the shortage there is
impacting on the patients to an extent that they have to come back
the following day and still no justice is being done on them.
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In light of our Constitution that enshrines the right to an access
to healthcare service, this is entirely impermissible. For how long
must patients -ordinary South Africans - wait to be treated with
dignity by being afforded the quality healthcare which is still
lacking, specifically in that hospital where we were and interacted
with people in the presence of MEC Gideon who alluded and attested
to our findings when we were there. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: your question said nothing about the TRIAD
system when you now say even the triad system was not working...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon Sibhukwana.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Your question said nothing about the TRIAD
system. You specifically asked about the shortage of equipment,
chronic medication and the issue of administration in Rob Ferreira.
[Interjections.] Hon member can you give me a chance to answer the
question because you asked and I never intervened; I was very
discipline. Can you show similar discipline hon member? Please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please hon Sibhukwana.
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I will appeal to hon members that whenever
you visit provinces, be it in health or in any other department, I
am sure you are experienced politicians by now; you know that when
people see somebody from government, they lodge unending complaints.
Please bring them to us and be specific. I am not going to sit here
and defend myself as you say I am doing. I can‘t because these are
patients and if they die it is trouble for me or every South
African. I would like to know the specifics.
Let me tell you about this issue of drug stock out. That is why we
even put up this Rx solution etc. sometimes people tell us that they
do not have treatment for diabetes in that hospital or clinic but
when you go there you find that that particular drug has two
different doses. Let me give you an example, there‘s one for 50mg
and one for 25mg. When the 50mg is finished - that‘s why doctors
have to do mathematics - you just give them two of the 25mg.
patients have been turned away and told that the stock is out. That
is not a stock out hon member and I am not defending myself.
The reason we have the Rx and SVS is because, for instance, we used
to be told that we have run out of antiretrovirals, ARVs. I can
assure you that since 2009 this country has never run out of ARVs
because we have a centre in Centurion where we keep 10% of stock to
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guard if there is no stock around the world or if there‘s any
disaster. We put it there and do not touch it. So, the only time we
would say there is a stock out of ARV drugs is if that 10% is gone.
What then happens is that the people don‘t order and don‘t follow
their stock very well. We gave them these two instruments, the Rx
Solution and the SVS so that we are able to keep track of stock. I
am not here to claim that at no stage can we not run out of one
drug. Even private pharmacies or the biggest hospitals can not have
everything forever. You are using private pharmacies; sometimes they
do tell you that they don‘t have a particular drug at that point in
time.
The biggest question is: Is there a solution to that problem? If you
go once and come back and say you found no drugs, be specific that
this and that drug ran out of stock for this period of time then we
will go and investigate because at the moment I rely on the Rx
Solution because it has never failed us. We even phone provinces
that do not report stock and let them know that we have not received
any report from them for the whole week.
Let me tell you how the SVS works: We have a big map in Pretoria
with each and every clinic in the country electronically. Once a
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nurse takes the special cell phone with a special application and
scans what is on the medicine bottle, if there is a shortage whether the nurse reports the shortage or not - the map will start
beeping red and we will see it. If it indicates amber we know that
they still have stock but it is low. If it is blue we know that
everything is okay. If the map does not show anything we know that
the nurse is not scanning and at the end of the week we will phone
and let them know that the map is not indicating anything for their
clinic and ask what is happening.
We do have these control mechanisms but I am not going to stand in
front of you and lie and say go to each and every hospital and you
will find everything. That has never happened, not only with
medicine but with any type of stock. You cannot go to Woolworths or
Pick n Pay and find everything that you want at all times; there
must be a measure of control.
If you went to rob Ferreira and did not find something for diabetes,
don‘t bring it here as a general shortage. Tell me that on this day
at this time, this type of drug for diabetes was not there and I
will investigate. Believe you me I have never hidden anything; I am
not type of a person. If it is wrong I will admit and tell you how
we are going to correct it.
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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon House Chair, we are called hon members because
we are expected to be honourable and it also helps to be factual.
Hon Minister you are still going to get a report of the oversight in
Mpumalanga specifically of Rob Ferreira since it was visited. We
will then expect you to respond on some of the issues we found
there.
The fact is – about Rob Ferreira - without defending again because
we can‘t defend medical related issues - there are two outstanding
issues before us that were addressed out of all the issues that were
raised in the committee when it visited the place. One issue is
about the reception - where people are received. The people we found
there, not the staff or the MEC, the people waiting were saying the
reception people play with their cell phones and not attend to them.
With regards to dispensation of medication they did not say there is
a shortage but it takes long for them to be attended. I am trying to
correct what was said about Rob Ferreira but the report is coming
hon Minister. We will decide whether we debate it or present it as a
report.
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My follow up question was going to be on the two issues, if you
could assist and follow that up. They raised an issue of a system
that is delayed by national. We said we are going to invite both the
national and provincial. They raised the issue of the patient system
but your official was there hon Minister. The patient registration
system, yes.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: House Chairperson, I am of the opinion that
the reason for conducting oversight visits is to go there and find
problems and report to us so they can be corrected. You are
overseeing us and the people there in the peripheries and we
appreciate that because it is true some of the things we may not
know or some of the reports we get might not be true for that
matter. So, when somebody pays an oversight it helps us because then
we will go there and check exactly what is happening.
The report about the national department delaying a patient
registration system – first of all hon member – this issue is very
common. The former Public Protector experienced it and I was very
angry. Every time provinces are unable to do something they just say
national, national! That is why even the DA and the EFF here
regardless of what the Ombuds is saying they were saying national,
national! There was a time when we were told ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Hon members.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: It is not an issue of a delay in this case
hon House Chair. Hon Dlamini, it is very important for you to
understand this. The nine provincial departments of health ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele... hon Mokwele.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The nine Provincial departments of health,
since 1994, have spent R4,5 billion on health information systems
but today we do not have a national health information system
because there were procured individually in provinces. Let me tell
you what that means. It means that if a person is on ARVs here in
the Western Cape and they move and go to Gauteng, we will not be
able to know what has happened to them. Even worse, it means if a
patient moves from one clinic to the other collecting for instance
ARVs we may not know. We know for sure that it is happening in
Limpopo around Mosina. There are people who do that everyday but we
can‘t have proof.
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We slept a moratorium on this type of procurement of information
systems as far back as 2010 because this issue of information
systems is not an easy thing internationally. We said part of the
reason is tenders – this one issuing this tender and another issuing
the other. We said on this system we can use state institutions
which have capacity and we have been working with CSIR since 2010 to
find a system that is suitable for the country. They eventually did
and we have started implementing it. As I am standing here in front
of you, to implement that patient registration system we have
already dispatched 11 000 computers all over the country and they
have been installed. We have put up a unique patient identifier and
have completed it in 1 800 clinics and still continuing to the
others. What that system will do is that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Mokwele.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: No ... no she wants me to look at her.
[Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please don‘t look at her hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: She is itching for my look.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Look at me and respond to
the question. Don‘t look at her.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, some of us are very handsome you can‘t
help it. So, when a young lady like that is itching to be looked at
– I mean you can‘t complain, but I was looking at hon Dlamini.
[Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): So, some of you hon Minister
are handsome and all of us are beautiful.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: In areas where this system has been
implemented – and it is very important. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Hon Mokwele, order!
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: There are areas where patients have waited
five hours just to get the file. In areas where we have implemented
this system, and I am not lying you can go and check, it takes 45
seconds for the patient to arrive there and say I want my file until
the file is released. This system is going to eventually move into
an electronic record system where the patient just arrives, we press
something and their name is shown.
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At the moment - as I am standing here - we have registered six
million South Africans. All of you here are going to register as
long as you are a South African. We are at six million and we are
moving to 52. We will register you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Your time hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: ... I am not relaying it, it is there and it
is coming. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, you know you
can‘t do that. Hon Mokwele, you know very well that you can‘t do
that. If ever you have a point of order you need to raise your hand.
Please.
Hon members, including hon Mokwele, we are moving to question 127
asked by ... Oh! My apology hon Faber, you are the last one on this
one. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, Please. Hon Mokwele!
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Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, some people are living in a fool‘s
paradise. House Chairperson, let me just ask the question to the
Minister ...[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: You know, House Chair ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I did not allow
you to speak. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, but this man cannot ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, you can‘t do
that.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, please take
your seat.
IsiZulu:
Mr F ESSACK: House Chairperson, nawu umnyango, mkhiphe.
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English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essak, uh uh!
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana,
order! Hon Julius, Order! Please, allow your hon member from the DA
to ask his question.
Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, to the Minister, if the department
has any plans to address the equipment was the first question. Now
the follow up which I want to ask, for instance, when we did
oversight in Upington at the new hospital there was state of the art
equipment but there were no doctors available... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Faber, please
hold it up. Hon Mokwele, I am asking you for the last time mama. I
request you to please keep quiet.
Mr W F FABER: Yes, House Chairperson she wants to be released early
I see. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, please take your
seat for a moment. Hon Dlamini?
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Ms L C DLAMINI: As we did not agree earlier that hon Mokwele calls
another member a white man but to say other people are living in
fools paradise in this House on the mic and you just leave it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Dlamini, I did not hear
that one.
Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, I can clearly state that my exact
words that you will find in Hansard is that some people are living
in a fool‘s paradise.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, please stick to
your question. Ask your question - please don‘t provoke anybody in
the House. Just stick to your question.
Mr W F FABER: I would like to know, Minister, the Upington hospital
with the state of the art equipment. When we did oversight we did
find that there was beautiful equipment but unfortunately the
doctors were not there to be able to work with some of the
equipment. Is there some way that your department can perhaps assist
that we get doctors that are adequate to be able to work with this
state of the art equipment in emergency situations?
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Indeed we will do so. One of the problems
that we experience in the Northern Cape, which we are trying to
solve, is that they took a decision that because doctors don‘t want
to go to the far rural areas - you know Northern Cape has vast
distances - then they put up community doctors in Kimberly whereas
the whole concept of community service is to make sure that each and
every hospital, regardless how far or how rural it is, gets doctors.
We have just corrected that issue from this year to inform them that
when they send in community service doctors, they must first choose
areas where doctors ordinarily don‘t want to go and populate that
area first. They say South Africans don‘t want to go there and we
said if they do not want then we will eventually give that place to
foreign workers because there are quite a number of them who are
looking for jobs in the country.
Lastly House Chairperson, when I mentioned the issue of R10 million
in Rob Ferreira I was not trying to say that we do not have a
problem of equipment in the country. Our decision with the Treasury
was that to solve this problem we must stop all provinces from ever
acquiring equipment on their own and let the Chief Procurement
Officer procure the equipment for the whole country. We believe that
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is the only way we will solve the problem. In that regard, we have
already appointed a special equipment committee and they have drawn
what is called an essential equipment list.
Since 1994 South Africa has been having what is called an essential
drug or medicine list - medicine that must be used in the public
sector. We never had an essential equipment list and we now have it.
It will tell you that a clinic at this level needs this equipment
and the hospital at that level and that equipment is going to be
procured by the Chief Financial Officer in the Treasury or at least
we hope so or that is we what we agreed on. From thereon we look at
whether there are doctors who are well equipped to use that
equipment. Thank you.
Question 127:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, let me try to reorientate both
yourself, the House and the public at large because this is a
problem global on this question before I give details about this
issue of clinics. The reorientation I want to give is that commonly
and wrongly people believe that when we talk about primary health
care we are talking about the clinic. Primary health care is a big
spectrum that rest on three pillars. It is not only clinics that
constitute primary health care.
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One, it is a system. If you go to the draft of the White Paper on
National Health Insurance, NHI, we have actually set the heartbeat
of the health care system which is going to be based on primary
health care. It means three pillars. Pillar number one is prevention
of diseases. Stop people from getting sick even before they go to
the clinic. That is one of the most powerful elements of primary
health care.
Number two is the promotion of health. Go around promoting health
which you know that I have been doing. Do not eat this, salt what
and what and some of you, of course, have been complaining very
bitterly. That is why I was disappointed this morning and I must
mention it here. When I read the News24 that SA Broad Casting, SABC,
have complained that they are losing money if we put certain
regulations against liquor and junk foods, I could not believe a
public broadcaster can ever say that because they are saying that
our children must keep on being poisoned for the public broadcaster
to get money, or that they must be drunken driving and all these for
them to get money. That is ludicrous, you know. I couldn‘t believe.
I thought and I hope that the new board will condemn that type of
action. We are doing it because it is promotion of health.
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Lastly, it is the issue of clinics. Actually, the issue of
prevention is even there in the Freedom Charter. It says that a
preventative health scheme shall be run by the state. We have not
yet done that. The reason that Cuba is regarded as the best country
in primary health care is not because they have got the best
clinics; it is because the issue of prevention of this and promotion
of health is the strongest in Cuba and with it they have eradicated
certain diseases.
Now, when you look at primary health care in the Northern Cape, I
want us to look at it holistically not what is happening in the
clinic. Holistically, I can report to you that in the Northern Cape
we have got 126 Ward Based Primary Health Care outreach teams which
must visit families. They consist of 1 857 community health workers.
They have already done 34 000 households. They have already visited
them to take an audit of who is there, who is suffering from what
and all that. They have done 260 follow-up visits. That is primary
health care.
I can also report to you that in terms of primary health care in the
Northern Cape alone, we have registered 17 587 pregnant women, on
the MomConnect whereby every week they receive messages about the
stage of their pregnancy that you are now 20 weeks pregnant, go and
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do this, go to the clinic and go and do that. We have got 17 000 on
them.
I can also report that using that concept, we have screened in the
Northern Cape only 9 889 school kids for physical barriers to
learning, hearing, oral hygiene and in the whole country by the way
we have screened four million of these kids. That is primary health
care. We have also immunised just this year only 5 023 school girls
for human papillomavirus, HPV, vaccine to prevent them from getting
cancer at all. I am here to report that since we started this HPV
vaccine in 2014, we have immunised one million school girls, still
going. That is primary health care.
Having also said, the question here was about Betty Gaetsewe Clinic
that it closes early. That is true. The clinic used to close at
16:00 and we extended it to 17:00. Now, the question is that it must
be open for 24 hours. Next to Betty Gaetsewe Clinic, 4,5km away from
it, there is Galeshewe Day Hospital. That day hospital has recently
started to operate for 24 hours. Therefore, there is no reason to
panic about Betty Gaetsewe Clinic, it will be ... [Interjections.]
... yes, it will be what we call in duplicating services if 4,5km
away of that. Therefore, the Galeshewe Day Hospital will solve.
However, I just wanted the House to understand that primary health
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care extend beyond clinics into communities. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Hon Chairperson, through you to the Minister ...
Xitsonga:
... a ndzi tsakela ku tiva leswaku ku fikela eka nkarhi wa sweswi mi
endla yini leswaku mhaka leyi ya tikliniki hinkwato ta ...
English:
... South Africa, not in a specific area, operates 24 hours,
especially from rural areas. I can give you an example in my home
town in Malamulele; there are other clinics that are operating four
hours a day. What is your intake about those issues?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, we had never claimed nor might it
be very necessary for each and every clinic in the country to
operate 24 hours. It might not be. We actually choose. Some of them
are just health centres where they are visits. However, if there is
any particular clinic which opens only for 24 hours; when there was
an agreement because there must be an agreement, in fact, in terms
of the ideal clinic model we said that each clinic must put on the
gate the hours of operation and say we operate from this time and
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that time. That must be in agreement with the department and the
community.
Therefore, if there is any clinic that works for four hours when it
is supposed to be working for more than that, please give us the
name. It might be that somebody is cheating. We did do get reports,
yes, that pregnant arrive at the clinic and they found it closed but
yet the working hours are from 07:00 in the morning maybe to 16:00
in the afternoon. They tell you that we came at 15:00 and it was
closed. That is cheating, please help us with that information and I
promise you that we will take action.
Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke rata go leboga Tona ka thuto e a
re fileng yona. Le fa go ntse jaalo, go botlhokwa gore o arabe potso
fa re e botsa. Re a itse gore tlhokomelo mo itekanelong ke eng. Re
rata fela fa o ka re araba mo karolong e e riling ...
English:
... and we are happy that the people of Galeshewe through us will
now get proper services in terms of what is needed. If it was not of
us those people will be still having a health centre that is closed
at 17:00 and a clinic that is closed at 16:00, but because we made
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you aware that there is that thing that is happening in Galeshewe
and we are very happy that you have intervened, hon, Dr Minister.
Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That was not a question, hon
Minister, it was comments ... [Interjections.] ... yes, I really
want to congratulate the NCOP because they are hard at work. I am
sure that she is referring to the House. Hon Minister, allow me to
really thank you for availing yourself this afternoon, to come and
respond to all the questions. Thank you very much. In your response
... [Interjections.] ... do not listen to Mokwele. In your response
really we have learned, hon Minister. Thank you very much. A round
of applause, hon members, for the Minister. [Applause.]
Now we are moving to Question 76. Let me take this opportunity and
welcome hon Minister and ask you to take us through. The question
was raised by the hon L V Magwebu from Eastern Cape. He is asking
the Minister of Higher Education and Training who is in the House.
Over to you, hon Minister.
Question 76:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson and
hon members of the NCOP, the Council of Higher Education, CHE which
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is our quality assurance body for universities has three major
mechanisms that it implements in carrying out its quality assurance
function. They are the national review process, institutional audits
or reviews and the accreditation or re-accreditation of programmes.
A programme is identified for a national review for a variety of
reasons. The Higher Education Quality Committee, which is a
substructure of CHE, may decide that due to concerns it has about a
programme or programmes on offer in the higher education sector, a
review is opportune; or in the cyclical development of national
standards for a particular programme, a national review process
follows automatically; or a profession itself may feel that a
national review may be opportune due to changes in the environment
and the kinds of graduates required.
Any of these may trigger a review process leading to clear outcomes
which are then publicised, as is the case with the Bachelor of Law,
otherwise known as LLB review. I‘ll leave a detailed answer here.
Because of time, what I just want to point out is that in 2012, in
the specific case of the LLB, the SA Law Deans Association, i.e. the
Deans of Laws in our various universities, extensively deliberated
the matter on whether the CHE should undertake a national review of
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the LLB qualification or not. Therefore, this came from the
universities themselves who wanted the review of the LLB.
Ultimately, an agreement was reached that a national review would be
appropriate to strengthen the quality of legal education across
South African universities. Also at the LLB summit held in May 2013,
the SA Law Deans Association and the legal professions which include
the General Council of the Bar of SA and the Law Society of SA,
reiterated the need to conduct a national review of the LLB
programme. By the way, these reviews are done by experts who work
under the authority of the CHE.
The finally-approved version took into account comments and
recommendations received from all quarters of the legal sector. It
took place during 2015 and 2016 utilising the approved qualification
standard as the benchmark. Lastly, from inception to completion, the
LLB national review process was not inordinately long. For it to be
reliable, credible and rigorous, the process requires extensive
consultation process of engagement with institutions followed by due
scrutiny at the level of CHE governance structures which are
responsible for the final decisions in terms of its well-established
policies, guidelines and procedure. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
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Mr L V MAGWEBU: Thank you for the response, hon Minister. It is much
appreciated. Be that as it may, my question is: Don‘t you think this
LLB review process took long? You said it started in 2012 and the
report was tabled in 2017. Therefore, the worry is what will happen
to those students because there are a dozen of universities that
have been affected and there are those which have been given six
months to remedy the situation or lose accreditation. What will
happen to those students who are studying LLB currently? Thank you
Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: No, the review did
not start in 2012. The discussions took place from then. The Law
Deans were discussing the matter and there were also discussions
amongst the legal bodies like, for instance, the General Council of
the Bar of SA and the Law Society of SA. However, the review proper
started in 2015. Therefore, it wasn‘t long.
However, it does require that there should have been a lot of
consultation in the lead up to what you may regard as the actual
real review, which is what started in 2012 with the discussions and
engagement amongst all these bodies. As I say here, there was also a
summit that was held in May 2013, which was debating this matter. In
fact, it has been in the media for quite some time but the actual
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process of undertaking the review was done in 2015-16 financial
year. Thank you.
I am sorry. Can I answer the second part of the question which
actually deals directly with what happened?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You still have time. So, you
can answer it now.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: No, I would prefer to
answer it because there is a specific Question 101 which is the next
question and deals with the matter he is asking, Chair. Thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, indeed the Minister indicated that these
processes actually come a long time, discussions, etc. May I ask and
if the Minister is willing to divulge? Are there similar programmes
which are also investigated whose standards may be questionable, not
LLB but veterinary sciences or whatever?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, I
may not have all the details but I can give you examples which come
to mind. For instance, we have been reviewing the social work
programme at Unisa amongst others. We have put them on terms that,
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if they don‘t correct things ... A medical school in Limpopo is
another institution which has been under review by the CHE to make
sure that standards ... The CHE is almost all the time consistently
reviewing a number of programmes arising out of one or a combination
of the processes that I have outlined which normally lead to the
necessity for a review. Thank you.
Question 101:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you very much,
hon Chairperson and hon members, for the question. A notice of
withdrawal of accreditation of a programme of the Council for Higher
Education through its Higher Education Quality Committee means that
the institutions offering the programme have been warned that if
they do not meet the set standards and quality criteria for the
programme they had risk of losing their accreditation. The affected
institutions have six months during which to address the Higher
Education Quality Committee‘s concerns and reasons for the notice of
withdrawal for accreditation. Therefore, none of the programmes that
have been put under notice during the current review of the LLB
degree has lost their accreditation as yet and will only do so if
they fail to rectify the issues identified.
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Notices of withdrawal of accreditation of the programmes do not
affect graduates who obtained their LLB degrees before this
announcement. So, it doesn‘t apply retrospectively. Their
qualifications remain valid, no matter what the final decision of
the Higher Education Quality Council is. Current students enrolled
in the respective LLB programmes are not adversely affected by the
notices as they enrolled for the respective programmes while they
were fully accredited by the Council for Higher Education and
legitimately part of the institutions programme and qualification
mix. Even in the event of the institution, not meeting the
requirements within six months of the notice and their accreditation
being withdrawn, students currently enrolled in the programme will
become part of the Council for Higher Education approved teach-out
plan, and will be awarded a fully accredited qualification on
completion.
Lastly hon Chair and members, in the event of accreditation being
withdrawn, a university will not be allowed any new first-time
entering students onto the programme from which accreditation has
been withdrawn. In such a case, if the institution wishes to offer
the programme again in the future, it would have to apply to
redesigning its curriculum and reapply for accreditation. Thank you
very much, Chair.
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Mr C HATTINGH: It is certainly reassuring that there are
institutions looking at the quality of qualifications and their
courses. However, I would like to ask the Minister the following: I
would imagine that if students, who were used for the review of the
programme, were in fact handpicked as supposed to be randomly
selected, it would render the entire review process questionable. I
think we all know that there is a season for protests, it‘s normally
in the run up to exams and then campuses become ungovernable. In
fact, media reports have made these allegations that the disgruntled
students were queuing up to be interviewed. Can the Minister
emphatically refute these allegations and try also to assure us that
the methodology that was followed over the period of investigation
can be trusted and is above board.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, I want to
say here, I have got complete confidence in the Council for Higher
Education. They have an incredible track record and they have served
our university systems with distinction. I may be wrong, but I
suspect where your question comes from - North West University whose
LLB is under threat. Here is a summary very briefly, of what the
Council for Higher Education says about the LLB at the University of
North West, the Faculty of Law with particular reference to the
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Potchefstroom campus provides an improvement plan that addresses the
lack of substantive integration between white and black students and
the sense of alienation felt by the black students as a result of
the actions of some of the white lecturers.
Now, the big problem identified by the Council for Higher Education
in relation to North West is a problem that at least has been at the
centre of the transformation effort by that university, because we
have been having two universities in one. We have been having the
Potchefstroom campus, which really was like belonging to the old
apartheid white South Africa, and the Mafikeng campus, which has
remained largely a Bantustan campus with very little, and this
inequality has actually been reproducing itself. Even the quality of
the LLB lecturers at Mafikeng as compared to Potchefstroom has been
very different and then the Council for Higher Education, rightly so
in this instance, said you can‘t be running two LLBs in one
university. You must run one LLB same quality, same standards and
also address the issue of integration.
I know there have been accusations from that university that a few
black students were interviewed and therefore they came to this. But
if there were ten or 15 black students who were interviewed, who
complaint about the fact that they feel alienated and they are not
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integrated, that is enough for the Council for Higher Education to
say if a section of the university community doesn‘t feel okay
because of institutional culture and programmes, as it has by the
way been shown by the Rhodes Must Fall campaign because it is
actually, amongst other things, addresses those inequalities and
institutional cultures. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, just another issue I
want to make a follow up with you. You have indicated that those
universities where they are given six months to rectify whatever
findings that the Council for Higher Education have found, they need
to be corrected and if they do that, all will be back to normal and
the LLB studies will continue. But now, if those universities fail
and you have indicated that surely the Council for Higher Education
will put up the teach-out plan - I am sure the students are anxious
to know as we are talking here now. What is that teach-out plan? Are
you able to tell us the details perhaps, will they be taken to other
universities that are meeting the criteria or they will be brought
to one centre for Law school so that they can continue whilst the
university is still battling to sort itself out? Are you able to
give us the details of the teach-out plan that Council for Higher
Education will roll out?
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The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair,
unfortunately, I am not aware of those technical details as to what
they exactly do. I am sure, taking my own experience as a former
university lecturer, it would take many forms. You could actually be
allocating your staff in such a way that they provide supplementary
teaching to those students in order to try and correct the
deficiencies that are there, but in a temporary fashion. You will
then actually need to ... Now that the Minister of Social
Development is coming in and I can make an example, auntie.
[Laughter.] That, for instance, one of the things with the Unisa
social work programme was the number of lecturers per students
because social worker has got intensive practical work. You cannot
actually have for instance, one lecturer to 30 students. You need
much less than that, so that you are able to provide practical. So
then, if that programme is deregistered, but there are students who
are finishing, then you need some measures to ensure that, at least,
they are able to finish a credible programme whilst the institution
is actually designing the programme anew and properly in order to
deal with that. It could be a mix, it could be anything and it also
depends on programmes. But that‘s the Council for Higher Education‘s
prescription that there must be a teach-out so that you don‘t
jeopardise those students who are actually in the programme and who
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were registered whilst the programme was still recognised. Thank
you, hon Chair.
IsiXhosa:
Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Sihlalo weNdlu, kwingqingqi yonyulo yam
(constituency) eSaldanah kukho ikholeji apho abafundi kumele ukuba
bagqibe ukufunda. Aba bafundi bathe basecicini lokuba bangakwazi
ukuqhubeleka phambili kuba imali yabo yenkxaso yokufunda (Nfsas)
ayifikanga kubo nangona bebexelelwe ukuba ithunyelwe. Loo nto
ithetha ukuba lukhona urhwaphilizo okanye ukuthotywa kwemali
ngomlenze okukhoyo. Ndicela i-ofisi yakho Mphathiswa ukuba ikhusele
ezi ntsizana njengoMphathiswa ojongene neli Sebe leMfundo
ePhakamileyo noQeqesho apho kuphuma khona le mali yenkxaso. Kufuneka
siyiqaphele nento yokuba asikwazi ukuba siyise ephondweni kuba
luxanduva lesebe likazwelonke. Ndicela isiqinisekiso sokuba uza
kuyilandelela le nto kule kholeji yaseSaldanah. Ndingavuya ukuba
ungandizamela umntu wokuba ndimnike iinkcukacha ezithe vetshe ngalo
mba. Loo nto leyo ndiya kuyenza ngemilenze engenamikhinkqi.
Ndiyabulela tata.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Ilungu
elihloniphekile noma sekuyinto entsha le ayiphakamisayo kodwa into
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ebengizoyicela ukuthi ungilethele imicikilishi [ama-details]
eyinkinga kulelo kolishi. Ngiyakwethembisa ngizoyisukumela ngoba le
ndaba ka-Nsfas ayikho inkinga encane noma ngabe kuthiwa incane
kangakanani ngiyayisukumela ngoba asifuni neyodwa ingane
ezophazamiseka ekufundeni ngokuthi ayikwazanga ukuthi ithole usizo
noma uxhaso uma ngabe kade iludinga.
Ngivumele ke Sihlalo ngibonge nanokuthi kumnandi lapha e-NCOP
siphuma siphetha-phethe izintwanyana ezincane bakithi. [Uhleko.]
Siyabonga kakhulu engathi kuyaphilwa kule Ndlu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
Minister and we really want to thank you for availing yourself.
Believe me, all the Ministers received a token of appreciation
today, but you are the only one who appreciated. They did not say
anything about it. [Applause.] You deserve a big round of applause.
And I believe you did not forget the question that you promised to
will respond to it - that question. Okay, you have responded to it.
That was the last question.
Question 64:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon member the
Adopt an Early Childhood Development, ECD, Campaign has recorded a
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number of impressive successes since its inception. ECD was declared
a public good and is part of an apex priority of the present
administration because it forms part of education. The campaign was
integrated into the National Development Agency, NDA, civil society
development programme and is part of our work with non-profit
organisations. The focus for our ECD interventions included,
providing teaching learning materials, ECD infrastructure support,
vegetable gardens development, support of ECD centres, occupational
health and safety support, compliance ECD practitioner training and
development and institutional capacity building for ECD managers.
In the past two years the NDA has taken over the national ECD Awards
as part of the development aspect of the programme. In partnership
with the private sector the NDA has successfully raised R20 million
rand to expand access to better quality ECD services. We are also
proud to report that we have been able to build brand-new, state-ofthe-art ECDs in Ducats, Eastern Cape, Mookgopong, Limpopo and in
Ducats one of our ECD practitioners is today a graduate that were
forcefully removed from a farm and were left in Ducats and fought
very hard to ensure that there was an ECD and we had to assist them
through the campaign and therefore they have the Siyakha ECD centre.
We have profiled 164 ECDs. We have capacitated 189 ECD centres on
institutional capacity building. The NDA has also enrolled 82 ECD
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practitioners up to National Qualifications Framework, NQF, level 5
and they can apply to study at a university or to pursue a diploma.
The NDA has introduced mobile ECDs throughout the country in areas
where there is poverty. Throughout the country the NDA has donated
more than 20 mobile ECDs and we also have 60 workers, which is two
ECD practitioners per mobile ECD and a driver, usually male, so that
they can provide security and support women on difficult issues.
And we must congratulate the NDA for the work that they have been
doing because infrastructure development for ECDs is part of local
government and therefore we thought that the process was moving
slowly and there are kids in the rural areas and informal
settlements that are losing out on this. One other important issue
is that the NDA has formed a partnership with the University of Fort
Hare so as to maximise research on improving our quality of
education for our children. We already have a curriculum that we use
in ECDs but we thought we needed to do more work so that our kids
could be well grounded.
And then lastly, our challenge is that the NDA allocation is about
3,5% per annum whereas the Consumer Price Index, CPI, increases at
6,5% and therefore some of the areas we can not cover but where the
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NDA has been you have seen a very big difference. Thank you very
much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The hon
Ncitha, taking over for the hon Manopole. ... Question 64 ... Okay
... Hayike! I am sorry for the confusion.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Selishonile [It is late/it‘s been a long day] hon
Chair, hon Minister, thank you for the response. Let me also thank
your department, the NDA under your leadership. When we raised this
issue in 2014 we said we can not prioritise ECDs yet there is no one
responsible for infrastructure development in government, your
department took it very serious. We saw it in Mpumalanga when we did
oversight, beautiful ECD centres in deep rural areas but hon
Minister I just want to indicate that when we did the Taking
Parliament to the People in the Eastern Cape at Alfred Nzo, we saw
one very beautiful ECD which was done between the department and the
Department of Public Works but for the rest the situation is not
good there if you could follow up, we did raise it. What was worse
is that we did not have officials from the department nor from the
province, it was just junior officials that we had. If you could do
a follow up there, there is one that has over 200 children and they
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do not have shelter there, if that could be prioritised. Thank you,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson,
IsiZulu:
Sizozama ngakho konke okusemandleni wethu ukuthi siyibheke le-ECD
ngoba noMnyango Wezokuthuthukiswa Komphakathi uyazama ngokwabo.
Njengamanje ...
English:
... over a period of three years we have been allocated
R800 million for ECD and we have agreed that we are going to start
with the ECDs from the poorest of the poor areas and improve them
and ensure that the basics are there like two exits ensuring that
the gas is out of the ECD and that no one resides in the ECD and
that there must be a board and then there must be small toilets or
bathrooms for our children.
Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Tona, ke a utlwa gore o re lefapha la gago le
ikaelela go tlhabolola dikheretšhe kgotsa mafelo a bana a go
ithutela. Jaanong ke batla go itse gore lo ...
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English:
... train the practitioners, how often do you do that training of
practitioners and if there is any training because ...
Setswana:
... ke utlwile o bua gore ...
English:
... you are giving them training of NQF Level 5 and do you as a
department maybe perhaps have an institution which you work with to
make sure that those practitioners are well equipped. My last input
is that you said you have distributed mobile ECDs, I just want to
know whether where are they distributed. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the training is
provided by different service providers but we are in the process of
ensuring that training is done by Further Education and Training,
FETs, and that actually we want to escalate the training of ECD to
universities because in most countries people that worked in the
ECDs are highly trained in universities because they deal with
babies and children and therefore they must have an understanding of
a lot of areas that have to do with children. And then ...
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IsiZulu:
... okwesibili, Umnyango Wemfundo Eyisisekelo [Department of Basic
Education] yiwona okhipha uhlelo lwezifundo [curriculum] lokuqeqesha
[train] abantwana bethu. Ngakho [So] sicacile [we are clear]
ngalokho abahambi nje beqeqeshwa yinoma ubani. Kodwa [But] into
ebuhlungu wukuthi uma ngabe sebeqeqeshiwe [trained] laba bantu ngoba
thina sibanikeza isibonelelo [stipend] baphinde bahambe baye kwiFoundation Phase yasesikoleni ku-Grade R.
English:
So we have been continuously training people that have been exiting
immediately after getting their NQF Level 5.
IsiZulu:
Ama-ECDs ukuthi akuphi, KwaZulu-Natal kukhona eyodwa, e-Freestate
mathathu, eMphumalanga Koloni [Eastern Cape] mabili, eNtshonalanga
eseNyakatho [North West] mahlanu, eNtshonalanga Koloni [Western
Cape] mathathu, e-Gauteng iyodwa, eNyakatho Koloni [Northern Cape]
mathathu, eMpumalanga iyodwa, e-Limpopo iyodwa, ngikhuluma
ngomahambanendlwana [mobile] ECDs.
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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, I would like to find
out, firstly, I want to agree with the Minister that the ECD
programme is a really necessary programme for children before they
can get to Grade R so it is a very important programme. But now how
do you intend dealing with the flip flops going forward because
there is quite a lot that is happening wish is not sort of being
aligned into the programme. You find that in other communities they
do this and in other communities they do that and even the issue of
payments, some do pay this some of money and others do not pay,
other staff are paid by parents, other staff are not paid by
parents, some ECDs still attached to junior primary schools, others,
you know there is so much that is happening which is, like I said,
flip flops.
What is the programme going forward which also talks to the issue of
how do you identify where you are going to put your next programme?
Also talk to the issue of sustainability. Thank you very much.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu
kwilungu elihloniphekile, into esiholayo [guide] kakhulu ngento
yama-ECDs wukuthi siyingxenye yeNhlangano Yezizwe zomhlaba [United
Nations of the world] ethatha u ...
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English:
... first 1 000 days of a child as very important and the first
1 000 days of the child uqala [starts] at gestation.
IsiZulu:
Okwesibili, akubona bonke abantu abafuna ukuthi abantwana babo baye
e-ECD, nalokho nje kusayinselele [challenge] ngoba asikabi nayo
indlela yokuqeqesha laba abantwana babo abafuna ukuhlala nabo
emakhaya ngoba sibheka kakhulu abaniningi ukuze [so that] sizokwazi
ukuthi siqhubekele phambili siqeqeshe abantu abaningi. Bese [and
then] i-ECD njengoba uHulumeni esethe uyinhlangano yomphakathi
[public entity] siyaqala manje ukuthi wonke umuntu aqonde
[understand] ukuthi ukuba mangabe kukhona i-ECD endaweni ayibe
nekomidi, ayibe nothisha abaqeqeshiwe, ayilandele uhlelo [programme]
olukhona ezweni lonke [throughout the country]
Enye into eyenzekayo ukuthi umangabe uthe i-ECD uyifakela isicelo
[apply] ukuthi siyifake ngaphansi kwezinhlelo zethu, siyabathumela
abantu abaqeqeshiwe abahloli bezempilo [health inspectors]
bayoyibheka ukuthi iyafinyeleleka [accessible] na, abantwana
abakhubazekile bangakwazi yini ukuthi bafike bafundiswe ngendlela
efanelekile njengabo bonke abantwana. Uma ngabe kuwukuthi
uyaphumelela bese sineseka [support] njengoHulumeni. Njengamanje
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sizama ukuthi ezweni lonke ingane iyodwa ithole u-R16 ngosuku. [per
day] Saqala phansi kwaku ngo-R5, kwawo-R9, sangafana izindawo
sazemakhaya [rural areas] nezasemadolobheni. [urban areas]
Kodwa [But] into ebalulekile sathi abantwana basezindaweni
zasemadolobheni banamalungelo afanayo nabantwana basezindaweni
zasemakhaya ngakho-ke bayafuna ukuthi bathole uxhaso lwezimali
[funding] efana ingane ngayinye [per child] nawo wonke umtwana.
Kodwa futhi kukhona izinkulisa [crèche] awela ngaphasi [fall under]
kwalaba abanezimali, yilapho futhi la othola khona ukuthi abazali
bayabakhokhela abantwana, abizwa phecelezi ngama-Private ECDs.
Kukhona izinkulisa la uHulumeni ekhokha khona ingxenye nabazali
bakhokhe ingxenye. Kuyaye kuthi inkulisa uma ngabe ingaphumelelanga
ukuhlangana nezimfuneko [meet requirements] noma ingahambisani
nemigomo yethu uma ngabe singayiphasisanga bavumelane othisha
mhlawumbe benomphakathi ukuthi bazoqhubeka bona bakhokhise abazali
kodwa asikuvumeli kakhulu ukuthi kuqhutshekwe ngama-ECDs angekho
esimweni esifanelekile.
Question 84:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the Constitutional
Court judgment that the hon member refers to suspended the
declaration of invalidity of the contract between the SA Social
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Security Agency, Sassa, and Cash Paymaster Services, CPS, until the
end of the contract period, which expired on 31 March 2017. In March
this year, the Constitutional Court decided to extend Sassa‘s
contract with CPS until 31 March 2018.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, through you to the hon
Minister: In light of what you have just said, I would like you to
furnish the following details to this House. What were your
department‘s reasons for misleading the parliamentary portfolio
committee or the standing committee by saying that the department
itself would deal with the issue when it eventually led to the
crisis?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WOKUTHUTHUKISA UMPHAKATHI: Okokuqala, kube nohlelo
lokubhalisa kabusha wonke umuntu othola imali yesibonelelo [grant],
ngesikhathi kusekhona lolo hlelo kwabanekomiti elalikade lihlelwe
ngungqongqoshe odlule uNgqongqoshe Edna Molewa. Okwesibili lelo
komiti lenza umbiko, ngemuva kwalokho sakhetha ikomiti longoti
elalifanele ukuthi lihambe liyobheka wonke amazwe anohlelo
oluphakeme lokukhokha imali yembonelelo. Lelo komiti laqeda
ngaphambi kwesikhathi okwakufanele liqede ngaso, laabhala nombiko.
Kwaba nomzukuzuku-ke nxa kufanele ukuthi kube nabantu abasebenzayo
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sebebheka ukuthi zisoya kanjani phambili ngoba umthetho kaSassa uthi
uSassa akawakhokhi amagranti. Ngakho-ke labo ababeqokiwe ukuthi
babheke umbiko baphinde basho ukuthi yini okufanele ukuthi yenziwe
babona ukuthi okokuqala izinto esizivumile ezazithulwa yikomidi
leziluleko ezinye zazo sasingeke sikwazi ukuzenza ngesikhathi
esincane.
Okwesibili, ibhajeti yethu yayingeke isivumele ukwenza lokho. Kodwa
futhi khona kwaSassa ngaphakathi abekho abantu noma bancane abantu
abanobuchwepheshe bokwazi ukwenza izinto okwakuthiwa zenziwe.
Ngakho-ke, kwaba nento yokuthi kumele sicabange ukuthi sizokwazi
ukwenza njalo, kwaze kwafika kithina ikomiti elibhekene nezomthetho
lazosho ukuthi angeke sikwazi ukwenza le nto, lathi hambani niye
eNkantolo yoMthethosisekelo niyosho ukuthi ...
English:
... by the time ...
IsiZulu:
... kufuneka ukuthi ikontileka iphele nizobe ningakwazanga ukwenza
lezi zinto enizibophe ngazo eNkantolo yoMthethosisekelo ukuthi
nizozenza.
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Afrikaans:
Mnr C HATTINGH: Voorsitter, die departement, die Minister, en die
Suid-Afrikaanse Welsynsagentskap, Sassa, het ons land in die skande
gesteek, nie net plaaslik nie maar ook internasionaal, en het ook
spanning veroorsaak onder die miljoene Suid-Afrikaners wat afhanklik
is van maatskaplike toelae.
Die afgelope week het Sassa se hoofuitvoerende beampte, mnr
Thokozani Magwaza, aangedui dat daar in die nuwe proses, of die
proses wat tans aan die gang is om ‘n nuwe kontrakteur aan te wys om
die toelaes te betaal, steeds probleme mag wees. Dit kom na
aanduidings dat die sogenaamde ―werkstrome‖ wat deur die Minister
aangestel is in 2015 reeds R40 miljoen gekos het – nadat R47 miljoen
aanvanklik daarvoor begroot is. Daar is ook aanduidings dat die
Tesourie weer wil ingryp in die proses.
Ek vra die volgende in belang van die miljoene mense wat na die
Minister, Sassa, die departement, en die regering kyk vir hul
maatskaplike toelae: Kan ons nou die versekering kry dat die
prosesse wat gevolg word om ‘n nuwe verskaffer van maatskaplike
toelae aan te stel ingevolge die toepaslike wetgewing, die
Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur asook ander Tesourieregulasies,
sal plaasvind en dat dit deursigtig sal wees? Indien wel, wanneer
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kan ons ‘n aanduiding kry dat die proses wel sal eindig op
31 Maart 2018 sodat daar op 1 April 2018 ‘n wettige leweransier wat
op ‘n deursigtige wyse aangestel is, kan wees? Het ons die
onderneming van die Minister dat dit wel sal gebeur en dat dit
deursigtig en wettig sal wees?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WOKUTHUTHUKISA UMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, okokuqala
esikwaziyo sonke ukuthi ngomhlaka-01 igranti yakhokhwa. Ngosuku
okukhokhwe ngalo igranti kwakunemilayezo eyayingena
kumakhalekhukhwini wabantu ethi ngeke abantu bayithole igranti.
Ngomhlaka-01 abantu nxa sebeyitholile igranti umlayezo uye
washintsha wathi sinilwele nathola igranti. Enya into ebalulekile
ukuthi abanye ababonanga ukuthi empeleni igranti yakhokhwa
ekupheleni kwenyanga. Uma inyanga iqala yayisivele iqalile
ukukhokhwa.
Ngemuva kwalokho inkulumo isishintshile ayisakhulumi ngokuthi
amagranti awakhokhwanga, kodwa isikhuluma ngama-workstream. Akuqali
la eNingizimu Afrika ukuthi kube nama-workstream kuhulumeni.
Sizamile ukulandela izindlela ezifanelekile, safaka isicelo
kuSigcinimafa kaZwelonke ukuthi kugunyazwe ama-workstream kodwa
awazange agunyazwe. Angifuni ukuma la bese ngithi asikwazanga
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ukuthola usuku ngoba ama-workstream awagunyazwanga. Leyo nkinga yaba
khona.
Okunye ukuthi sizofuna abantu abahlukene abangabochwepheshe
abazokwazi ukuthi benze umsebenzi. Omunye umsebenzi okwamanje sibona
ukuthi uzokwenziwa yithina. Omunye uzokwenziwa eminye iminyango
esizosebenza nayo njengoMnyango weZazekhaya, ihhovisi lokuposa,
kanye ne-CSIR ngezesayenzi nobuchwepheshe. Okunye ukuthi sizofuna
abanye ongoti bangaphandle ukuthi basibhekele ukuthi sizokwenza
kanjani ikakhulukazi lokhu okuzothatha lolu hlelo luye lapho abantu
bakithi bekhona, la behola khona. Athi umuntu uma ethola igranti
yakhe athenge kuzinkampani ezisebenza ngokubambisana, izinkampani
ezinjengezabo maMkhize noma omaNdlovu noma omaMlothswa abaxhamulayo
hhayi osomabhizinisi abakhulu kuphela ngoba njengamanje yilokhu
okwenzekayo.
Umthetho siyawulandela ngoba futhi inkantolo enkulu
yoMthethosisekelo ibeke imiqathango ekufanele ukuthi siyilandele.
Ngokho-ke sizoyilandela leyo miqathango futhi iNkantolo
yoMthethosisekelo ithe silethe amagama abantu esibona ukuthi
bangasinceda bese njalo ngemuva kwezinyanga ezintathu sibhala
umbiko. Kodwa futhi ikhona i-select committee lana kuMkhandlu
kaZwelonke weZifundazwe, kuphinde futhi kubekhona ne-portfolio
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committee kuMkhandlu kaZwelonke okuyibona abazokwazi ukuthi basenze
ukuthi sichazele umphakathi wonke waseNingizimu Afrika mayelana
nendlela esisebenze ngayo [to give account].
Question 65:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, I would like to
inform the hon member that while the South African Social Security
Agency, Sassa, has no record of the total number of beneficiaries
affected by illegal deductions, we can only report on the number of
disputed deductions reported to the agency by a number of
nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and those that are facing
deductions as well as the Black Sash because we have formed a
partnership with it.
For the period of April 2016 to February 2017, a total of 95 492
disputes regarding deductions from grants have been lodged with
Sassa. Only of this were related to deductions for funeral policy
premiums, while the majority of the disputes were related to amounts
taken for airtime and prepaid electricity. Of this number, 10 067
were successfully resolved and were to the payment of more that
R1 million. Over 50 000 disputes are incomplete because we are still
waiting for affidavits from our people.
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IsiZulu:
Uma ngabe ube nenkinga nje into esiyidingayo ukuthi sithole
isitatimende esifungelwe ukuze sikwazi ukuthi simele udaba lwakho.
English:
We have introduced the revised regulations to the Social Assistance
Act in order to put an end to the tide of unauthorised and unlawful
deductions and to ensure better control of section 21 and section
26(a) which deals with the payment environment. The revised
regulations now make it clear that the beneficiary must in person
provides written permission to Sassa for a deduction, and where they
cannot do this in person, Sassa will assist the beneficiary either
through a home visit or other means in accordance with existing
policies.
Now I think we have all heard of the outcome of the Constitutional
Court which is disappointing. We lost the case, but we are not going
to say a lot about that. Our people are still studying the court
judgement. The Constitutional Court has added new conditions to the
extended contract between Sassa and Cash Paymaster Services so as to
ensure that the information and data about the beneficiaries is
protected.
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Firstly, the contract should keep beneficiary data received from
Sassa or otherwise collected from beneficiaries in compliance with
the contract. Secondly, it shall not invite beneficiaries to opt in
to the sharing by the contract of confidential information for the
marketing of goods. Thirdly, it will secure an undertaking from
Grindrod Bank because we are working with Grindrod Bank and that it
shall not invite beneficiaries to opt in to the sharing by the
contract of confidential information for the marketing of goods and
services when opening Sassa card-linked accounts for beneficiaries.
Thank you, Chairperson.
IsiSwati:
Nkst L C DLAMINI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo Wendlu kanye
neMphatsiswa. Angati kutsi ikhona yini indlela yokutsi bancedzakale
kulendzaba yemaAffidavit ngoba sikhuluma ngebantfu labadzala
lengingenasiciseko noma bayati kutsi sikhuluma ngani masikhuluma
ngeAffidavit.
English:
I know it is ...
IsiSwati:
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...kodvwa nje imitamo yokutsi yokutsi bancedzakale batfole ema
Affidavit njengoba usho kutsi kube sekatfolakele letinye tinkinga
ngabe seticatululekile. Ngiyabonga.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu
kulungu elihloniphekile, sizozama ukuthi sithole indlela ezosheshisa
yezitatimende ezifungelwe kodwa ukuthi wonke umuntu kufuneka
aqondisise ukuthi ...
English:
... the Constitutional Court advised that beneficiary data
collected for beneficiary purposes for implementing contract
conditions must not be used for any purposes other than payment of
grants. So, Sassa has also instruments that come from the
Constitutional Court. We hope that we are going to maximise the use
of this judgement because when it comes to the issues that relate to
money business – we have really encountered problems, Chairperson.
For instance, we started with a National Credit Regulator ...
IsiZulu:
... sasicabanga ukuthi siyoliwina lapho icala ukuthi kungabikhona
omashonisa ababolekisa imali kubantu abadala nokuthi bangagcwali
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lapho kuholelwa khona impesheni kepha azange siphumelele ukuwina
icala. Uma ngabe sesiya enkantolo besinethemba elikhulu kakhulu
ngoba sazi ukuthi umthetho ngaso sonke isikhathi uhlale useduze
kwalabo abahlophekayo noma uhlale uvikela noma uhlonipha
abahluphekayo kodwa kwenzeke okuphambene kulesi sikhathi samanje.
Ngiyabonga.
Question 91:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister and hon members, I have no
other hand which means we proceed to the next question. Hon Minister
it is the question originally was posed by the Hon Londt. I have
since been instructed to that hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana will take care
of the question.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the question is
exactly the same with the previous question. It is about illegal
deductions.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, my understanding is that it
is slightly difference, because this one only wants to know how
many.
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The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Oh, Chairperson, is 95 429
disputes that we have from April 2016 to February 2017 and then most
of them are about airtime and prepaid electricity and we have been
able to resolve 10 067 cases and over 50 000 disputes are incomplete
as the affidavit required us to finalise still outstanding matters.
Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Minister, thank you for coming through to
account, because you have been dodging all along. Hon Minister, part
of your responsibility when you signed to be the Minister of Social
Development as an official was to protect the most vulnerable people
of South Africa, mostly the elderly.
This means that, the contract with companies like CPS are ones that
the most vulnerable people of South Africa were expecting you to do
that. It is only when the Constitutional court brought you into
perspective when the volcanic eruption came into place then you took
initiatives. I would like to know from you Minister, what did you do
initially or the first time when you learnt that illegal deductions
are happening, because all what you have put in place now is because
of the Constitutional court ruling and then you rushed to even get
the payment to made on 01 April 2017. What was your response having
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signed the act to protect the most vulnerable people of South
Africa?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo angikaze
ngibalekele umsebenzi wami. Ngiyawenza umsebenzi wami.[Ubuwelewele.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Awuyena uSoswebhu wami
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Minister, address the House
through me.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI:Okokuqala, uma ngabe
abantu bebika ukuthi kunokudonswa kwemali ngabheka ikontileka.
Okwesibili, ngathola ukuthi kukontileka kukhona ingxenye ethi
kungenziwa ezinye izinto ngemali yesibonelelo. Okwesithathu,
ngathola incwadi eyayibhalwe ngomunye wabasebenzi iya ezifundazweni.
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Ichaza ukuthi ingenziwa enyinto noma ukuthenga noma yini ngemali
yezibonelelo.
Sathi sisaphethe udaba lwakhe wasula esikhundleni wahamba emsebenzi.
Ngoba phakathi kwayo yonke into ephathelene nalenkontileka
yayingekho nje incwadi noma isiqondiso esake saphuma saya
ezifundazweni sathi kungathengwa ukuthi. Futhi ngoba le nkontileka
ibe ihlala ilwa imaginxiginxi ayilitholanga ithuba elenzeka kuzo
zonke izinkontileka ukuthi kuhlalwe phansi iphinde ibuyekezwe.
Ngichazile la ukuthi saya enkantolo. Ngaphambi kokuba siye enkantolo
saya ku-National Credit Regulator. I-National Credit Regulator
iyingxenye yezinhlaka zikahulumeni kodwa sathi uma sithi
kungakhishwa imali ngaphandle kwemali ebhalwe ku-section 26(a)
ikakhulukazi ehambelana nezinhlangano somasingwabisane. Lasilahla
icala, sadlulela phambili. Saya enkantolo, salifaka icala sithi
asifuni umuntu ozokhipha imali ngendlela engekho emthethweni.
Kwathiwa sizotolikelwa isinqumo senkantolo [judgement.] ngoMfumfu
ngonyaka ophelile. Besilokhu silandelile saze sathola namhlanje
isinqumo senkantolo [judgement.]. Lokho kwakwenziwayini. Kwakwenziwa
yithina.
Siphindile futhi kuhulumeni safaka imithetho echazayo ukuthi
kungavunyelwa umuntu ukuthi athathe imali yabantu abahola izimali
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zezibonelelo. Le mithetho ebesiyifakile yiyona le efakwa inselelo
ngongxiwankulu abadla izambane likapondo. Abantu abalwayo la akubona
abantu nje, ngabantu abanemali futhi abayizigwili. Sizodlulela
phambili silwe enkantolo kepha sishilo ukuthi enye into eyenza
ukuthi sithole ukuthi siyajabula kancane ukuthi eNkantolo
yoMthethosisekelo kushiwo ukuthi kungabi bikho noyedwa ozokhipha
imali yabantu abahola imali yezibonelelo ngaphandle kwesivumelwane
nomuntu ohola isibonelelo. Lowo muntu naye abhale phansi uma ngabe
engakwazi ukubhala phansi ancediswe kwaSassa.
Lesi sinqumo senkantolo [judgement.] sasiphumile futhi kusekhona [
akuzwakali.] [kwaphela isikhathi.]
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Minister, it appears you are moving from one crisis
to the other as SASSA, with due respect because you have just
conceded now that you have 50 000 affidavits that you have not
processed on the issues of illegal deductions. Therefore is test to
reason that those grant beneficiaries are adversely affected,
because there are deductions that they have disputed but they are
not receiving full amount, because you still have to obtain 50 000
affidavits.
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Now, it can‘t be sufficient response from your side again with due
respect to say we are working on this. You have to prioritise this.
You have to give us a time line as this House to say within two
months I will be able to deliver those 50 000 affidavits and resolve
those disputed cases, because the grant beneficiaries are the poor.
They are the vulnerable and they depend solely on this grant, hence
we call them grant. And these are the people you have been given a
responsibility to look after to create a carrying society. The
people who can‘t look after themselves that you must look after
them. Therefore you are failing them if you leave this issue open
ended by saying we are working on it time and again, when we are
talking about 50 000 affidavits. You need to give us a timeline,
Minister.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo,
abantu banikezwa izitatimende ezifungelwe kufuneka bazigwalise bese
bazibuyise. Ngiyethemba ukuthi ilungu lizwe kahle ngendlela
efanelekile. Abantu abazibuyisayo izitatimende ezifungelwe iyaqalwa
imali yabo ukuthi yenziwe [processed.].
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Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, the question was and let me repeat it
for the Minister‘s benefit. How many grant beneficiaries according
to her department have been affected by illegal deductions from
their grants?
The Minister didn‘t respond to that question, instead the Minister
said there were 95 429 disputes. Now, say it is a very efficient
system run by the Minister, South African Social Security Agency,
SASSA, Cash Paymaster Services, CPS, and Net1 and so, you say is
very efficient and 1% complain, that means they can be just below
10 million people who were affected by illegal deductions. If it say
10% then it is just below million and the Minister can‘t tell us.
Some people come there and wait for hours in winter and sometimes
raining. They are just given forms to sign and they are given money
and go and it maybe a legal contract, but contract under very
doubtful circumstances, so I would like to know the response to the
question. Obviously, once the Minister became aware of illegal
deductions, she and her department would have investigated. What is
the number of illegal deductions? Even a thumb suck figure if we
know is 95 000 that have complained, many people wont complain. They
will just go off happy to get the money. Adding a question to this,
is it not fine that the Minister perhaps distance from procurement
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and give political leadership and leave the procurement to the
professional? Thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Izinhlelo [systems.]
siyazazi sonke. Yizona lezi ezenza lapha e-Western Cape ukuthi uma
beqala uhlelo lwezempilo lokunikeza amaphilisi lwashayisa kodwa
ngoba siyazazi izinhlelo asihambanga sibanga umsindo ngalokho ngoba
izinhlelo azikhiphi into oyifunayo ngaso sonke isikhathi.
Okwesibili, kunenhlebo engakafakazwa [allegation] eningi lapho
ngabaphathi bezikhungo abasebenza nenhlangano ebusa la okuthiwa
Mashibheshe. Kodwa asikaze size sizoma la ngoba into esingenaso
isiqiniseko sayo asifuni ukuhamba siyikhuluma ngoba ivele ibukeke
sengathi iyiqiniso. Kuqala kuthiwe yinhlebo engakafakazwa
[allegation] kodwa ekugcineni abantu bagijime nayo.
Kunabantu la abantu abake bavalelwa ompopi kodwa ngoba siyazi ukuthi
uhlelo luwuhlelo asihambi sibanga umsindo. Ngakho ke lokho into
ephathelene nokunikezela kwezinkonzo kuyenzeka wonke umuntu ukuthi
abe nezinselelo. Okwesibili, ngininikile izinombolo. Angizukuvuma
ukuthi umuntu noma ilungu lePhalamende lingithathele izinqumo lenze
ama-assumtions ngento elingenayo isiqiniseko sayo. Uma ungathi
asisuke kusasa siye kwaSassa siyobheka izinhlelo uphume naleyo
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nombolo kulungile ungakhuluma ngayo kodwa uma ngabe usenza amaassumptions loko ukudlala ngemizwayabantu. Loko ukufuna ukuveza
inhlangano ebusayo ingathi ayiwazi umsebenzi.
Thina uma ngabe sifika lapha bambalwa kabi abantu ababe hola imali
yesibonelelo. Bambalwa kabi abantu ababehola izibonelelo!
Babengayiholi imali yezibonelelo babengayiholi. Njengoba
sebeyithanda manje ekuqaleni nanithi lemali yesibonelelo yenza idependacy. Kuzoqala kuboshwe lababenu kuqala eningakhulumi ngabo.
Ningenzi izinto ... ungakhulumi ngathi izinto ezingama-assumptions
eningenasiqiniseko zazo.
English:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Is it not time to start a
discussion whether apartheid was good or not?
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order
IsiZulu:
Ngicela ukuthi umhlonishwa ukuthi ake angibekele ngolimi oluthambathambile uMashibhesha. Angizwanga kahle ukhulume ngoMashibhesha. Uma
engangichazela uMashubhesha.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think it would qualify to be a point
of privilege.
IsiZulu:
Kusho ukuthini Ngqongqoshe?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ushibheshe ukuthi ususe
into uyibeke la, uthi usuyisusile la uphinde uyibeke lapha. Ifana
nokukhokhela imali yomhlaka 1 kuMbasa le okwakuthiwa ayikho kodwa
yabakhona.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Minister, in respect of you earlier response
regarding the court case and the illegal deductions. I just want to
get clarity, whether I heard correctly. I know we have it on Hansard
and we can get it later on but I just want clarity from the
Minister, whether the Minister suggested earlier that the courts
don‘t take care or don‘t care about the poor and the vulnerable,
because of this court judgement?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I never said so, Chairperson.
Question 63:
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The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, in 2006, government
declared social work a scarce skill profession, recognising the
central role of the profession in the attainment of national
priorities such as poverty alleviation, youth development, social
crime prevention, and social cohesion. To this end, the department
introduced a recruitment and retention strategy for social workers
which has two key elements, namely recruitment through offering
bursaries, and improvement of working conditions.
In terms of the National Development Plan, NDP, in order to render
developmental social services, the social sector requires more that
50 000 social service practitioners, a large proportion of which
should be qualified social work professionals. Since the inception
of the social work scholarship, the department has granted 11 401
scholarships for students starting their four-year degree. Of this
number, 6 800 social work graduates have been absorbed into fulltime employment by the department.
I am also pleased to inform hon members that a conditional grant of
more than R305 million has been allocated over the medium-term
expenditure framework cycle 2017-2020 for the absorption of social
work graduates ... [Interjections.]
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, please take your seat.
Hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Thank you, Chairperson. On a point of order, I would
like to know whether it is parliamentary for any member or Minister
to chew bubblegum while talking to us. I actually think it is quite
disrespectful.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. Hon
Minister, please proceed.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: And in this current year alone, we are
going to absorb 556 social work graduates. We shall continue
engaging departments from other sectors, as government has
instructed us to do.
We also want to continue our engagement with National Treasury and
the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas, so as to ensure
that the training of social workers migrates to Nsfas.
We will continuously seek to improve the working conditions of
social workers so that they can concentrate on the current
challenges facing our country.
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Working with the SA Council for Social Service Professionals,
SACSSP, we have embarked on a process to recognise and
professionalise other categories of social service professions such
as social auxiliary workers, probation officers, child and youth
care workers as well as community development practitioners.
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, thank you hon Minister. I am quite happy
with your answer, however, there has been word going around ... I
just wanted to have a comment from you on this one that there is
over-production of social workers, to the extent that maybe the
department should consider cutting down on the scholarships awarded.
I don‘t know how true it is. Can I have your comment on that one?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: We think the main challenge here
is that we still have too few social workers. Secondly, provinces
started using their budget to absorb social workers. And then later
abusing programme money. Therefore they then said to us we can‘t
absorb more because you only absorb during the first year and then
the coming years, you don‘t give us money for continuation. I think
here we are faced with a reality. And they cannot be more because we
do need social workers. If you look into what is happening in our
society: violence against women and children; things that happen in
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homes; the killings; the anger in the nation, social cohesion ...
All these need to be dealt with by professional people so that we
are a better country. That is why we have been getting extra money
and we are working with other organisations. We have partnered with
them so as to ensure that they also absorb some of the social
workers.
But the truth of the matter is that, even the social workers that
are in the department doing work on a daily basis, need to be happy
when they are finished doing their work. More than ever, so that
they create interest in the profession.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Minister, as you said, we need social workers,
and unfortunately or fortunately — it all depends on how we manage
that — the Department of Social Development and the NGOs in this
country are the main sources of employment for social workers. So
the department needs solve the problem, otherwise you have to
consult the companies to employ and businesses and industry to
employ more social workers. But that‘s a thought for another day.
I want to know ... as you said, the department has recently
considered reducing its intake of new social work recruits in favour
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of absorbing the currently qualified but unemployed government
social work bursary graduates.
In the meantime, the need for qualified social workers — as you have
said — is increasing rapidly as more and more NGOs are closed while
those who received services from these organisations are left
stranded.
What will happen to the over 2 000 unemployed social work graduates,
some of whom qualified already in 2013 and are unable to find
employment.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I think we did mention that we
are trying very hard to ensure that social workers are employed,
even at Sassa, for instance, issues of child finders ... They employ
social workers for foster care. We employ social workers. And when
there is enough money, we do employ social workers. We have tried to
maximise the employment of social workers.
But if we don‘t have enough budget for social workers, we won‘t be
able to employ them, but we have tried by all means necessary. I‘ve
said that we are even working with international donors so as to
ensure that social workers are employed.
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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Minister, thank you for the responses. Those
members who serve on the committee will remember that it is a fact
that we were given number broken down into provinces showing how
many social workers have been trained, how many absorbed and how
many are still in the institutions. And the number of social workers
that the department is training is not a thumb-sucked figure. We
were given ... We were told of a research product. For us as a
country to be able to deal with issues of social work, we need so
many social workers.
So the question ... [Interjections.]
Don‘t tell me what to do.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Concentrate on this Chair.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Thanks, Chairperson. The question, Minister, from
our side, as a committee, was that maybe you are too fast with the
training of social workers compared to the absorption. We
recommended to the committee that it was time to slow down on the
training and absorb those who are trained already. Use this money
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for the absorption, then you come back and try to balance. But the
social workers we do need.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, lokho yikhona
esikwenzile ngempela. Sithathe emalini yokuqeqesha sayifaka ngapha.
leyo mali iyona esizoyisebenzisa. Njengoba sizoqala nje iyona mali
esiyiphambukisile [divert] ukuze sikwazi ukumunca [absorb] ngoba
sizinga izisebenzi zenhlalakahle ukuthi zibe semsebenzini kunothini
zihlale ngaphamdle. Siyabonga kakhulu ngombono wekomiti futhi
siwusebenzisile.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Minister, in your quest to bring about
efficiency in your department with all the malfunctioning that comes
with it, I would like to know from you how you are going to ensure
that the money is transferred to provinces for absorbing social
workers is used for that purpose and nothing else, for being
redeployed to other pragrammes in your department.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Yonke iminyaka sihlala
senza isiqiniseko sokuthi izifundazwe zisebenzisa imali ngendlela
efanelekile. Zonke izifundazwe ziyafana, ziye zithi ziyahamba
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ziyokhuluma nama-Premier alo. Zonke futhi ziyafana asikho esingcono!
Ziyafana asikho esingcono ngakho-ke thina sizozama ukwenza umsebenzi
wethu ngendlela efanelekile. Uma ngabe sekuphela unyaka abantu
kumele bachaze ukuthi bayisebenzise kanjani imali.
Question 73:
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon member, it is now a matter
of public knowledge that the Constitutional Court judgment extended
the contract between the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, and Cash
Paymaster Services (Pty) Ltd, CPS, for a period of twelve months,
until 31 March 2018.
The Constitutional Court also added two new conditions. To this end,
an addendum was signed between Sassa and CPS on 31 March 2017. This,
together with the existing contract, will govern the relationship
between Sassa and CPS for the period of extension.
The additional conditions included in the addendum to the contract
are as follows. The contractor shall keep beneficiary data received
from Sassa, or otherwise collected from beneficiaries, in compliance
with the contract, private, and may not use such data for any
purpose other than the payment of grants, or any other purpose
sanctioned by the Minister, in terms of sections 20(3) and (4) of
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the Social Assistance Act, Act 13 of 2004. The contractor shall not
invite beneficiaries to opt in to the sharing by the contractor of
confidential information for the marketing of goods and services;
and shall persuade Grindrod Bank that it shall not invite
beneficiaries to opt in to the sharing by Grindrod Bank of
beneficiaries‘ information for the marketing of goods and services
when opening Sassa card-linked accounts for beneficiaries. The
parties undertake to comply, at all times, with the provisions of
section 16, including all relevant provisions of the SA Social
Security Agency Act, and section 69, including all relevant
provisions of the Protection of Personal Information Act, 2013,
wherever data is concerned. I thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I am a bit disappointed that the Minister
said nothing about the financial commitments. Be that as it may and I would also like to understand – could you allay the fears of
South Africans, including myself, hon Minister? The illegal contract
was given three years to be sorted out and that could not happen.
Now it has been given 12 months. How can we feel confident that this
will happen in 12 months, when it could not be done in 36? Just that
one, a smallanyana one.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula ...
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Mr M KHAWULA: You are given 36 months and it doesn‘t happen. Now,
how is it going to happen in 12 months, hon Minister? How?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, you are smuggling. You are
in a completely new ... Your question states, ―Outline the terms
...‖. You are now coming in on a completely different tack. ―Outline
the terms‖. Minister, you are free to respond if you so wish.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, bengicela
ilungu elihloniphekile uKhawula liyofunda sonke isinqumo.
[judgement]Kukhona la okuthi umangabe Sibona ukuthi kukhona esingeke
sikwazi ukwenza ngesikhathi esifanelekile kumele singahlali phansi
siphuthume siye eNkantolo yoMthethosisekelo, kukhona umshwana
[clause] osho njalo.
English:
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, hon Minister, surely the new contract
will have a bearing on future contracts? We know the court ruled you
have 12 months to get the new contract. Now, with regard to
intergovernmental relations, the Post Office has shown a keen
interest in taking over this contract while it is still running. My
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question to the Minister is: From the time the contract was found by
the court to be illegal, to date, has she ever engaged the Minister
of Telecommunications and Postal Services on the possibility of them
getting the contract? Thank you, Chair.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI:Kubantu esithe
sizosebenza nabo ekuqaleni sithe iposi lizobakhona ngaphandle uma
ukuthi sifike thina la uNgqongqoshe u-Molewa wayeseqalile ukukhuluma
neposi. Okwesibili, sishilo sesiyasebenza vele noMnyango Wezasekhaya
[Home Affairs] ngokuthi sihlanganise imininingwane .[information]
Sishilo futhi ukuthi uMnyango Wezesayensi Nobuchwepeshe [Department
of Science and Technology] ngokusebenzisa [through] i- The Council
for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, i-CSIR yenze into
enkulu kabi, yenza ukuthi sizobabhalisa [enrol] kanjani abantu bethu
sithatha amabhayomethriki [biometric] bahlanganisile, bahlanganisa
kwalunga.
English:
So, we are going to be using a South African product, meaning that
...
IsiZulu: 19:38:31
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... iminyango esizosebenzisana nayo ukwenze ukuthi lokhu kuqhubeke,
laba abagcina imininingwane i-SITA nabo bazobakhona ngoba kuzofanele
ukuthi sibe nemininingwane eminingi esiyigcinayo. Siyabonga.
English:
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, the Minister has already put so much
stress on the poor and vulnerable people with this mess that she
caused. We know that the report the court also wanted from her was
also wishy-washy and not the correct version. Now, it seems that the
Minister does not care about procurement or tender procedures and,
as the hon Julius has said, I would like to know: How we can trust
her now, after all this distrust that we already have in her? How
can we can trust her to look after the poor, vulnerable people of
our country so that they don‘t find themselves in such a mess again?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber, what is the follow-up
question? You have made that statement. What is the follow-up
question?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would like to know how the Minister can
assure us that we can believe what she is saying to us - because she
did not even give the correct version to the courts.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, you are free to respond.
I think the hon Julius - and somebody else - has asked you to give
the assurance. So, it is up to you to re-emphasise the assurance –
if you feel you are bound.
Hon members, I really do not want to protect members of the
executive. I don‘t want to do that. However, please put
supplementary questions, because it is not just about the bashing.
It is also about getting information out of the executive to the
people who need it out there, in the streets. So, there is a point
to our allowing four supplementary questions per question.
Thank you very much, hon Minister of Social Development. That was
the end of your sixth question. [Applause.]
Question 110:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson and hon members,
the department has detailed plans and strategies to relieve the
pressure of water shortages or crisis in all areas of the country so
as to ascertain that its mandate is adhered to. It also assist
municipalities that are water service authorities in affected waterstressed areas with responses such as the technical assistance, the
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implementation of water restrictions, cutting of water and supplying
water tanks amongst other things.
The second issue is that of ensuring that water sources are
identified and the most feasible and reliable interventions are put
in place. Large parts of our country that are far from any reliable
surface water sources are in most instances supplied by boreholes
such as in the Karoo, Northern Cape, parts of Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal
and the Eastern Cape. We are also encouraging the re-use of water
and desalination of sea water and brackish water have been
implemented through the department‘s initiatives. This coming
Friday, we will be commissioning a desalination plant in Richards
Bay, KwaZulu-Natal as part of the interventions having learnt from
the drought and the need to do more with other sources of water.
Several small desalination plants have also been established in
Searchfield, Knysna, Plettenberg Bay and Bushmans River Mouth during
the 2009 to 2011 drought financial year. We are now re-commissioning
those desalination plants to ensure that we can be in a position to
make sure that they move beyond what was an emergency scheme into a
long term sustainable intervention. Indeed the use of different
sources of water is something that we definitely have to encourage
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in South Africa rather than relying in surface water. Thank you,
Chairperson.
IsiXhosa:
Nks P C SAMKA: Sihlalo weNdlu, ndicinga ukuba uphando ebelenziwe
phaya eMpuma Koloni ngela dami laseMzimvubu lungancidisana nala
maphondo akufutshane athwaxwa yimbalela, kwicala lamanzi abe
ayahlanguleleka. Ungakhe Mphathiswa usinike siyileNdlu ukuba kumaxa
kundawoni kwela dami. Nicinga ukuba lingagqitywa ngowuphi unyaka
ukuze singaphindi sithethe ngale nto yokunqongophala kwamanzi
kwiindawo ezikufutshane nalo? Kaloku eli dama liza kondla iindawo
ezininzi, umzekelo, KwaZulu-Natal naseFreyistatha. Loo nto ingawenza
umahluko omkhulu kakhulu. Ibinga singakhe sinikwe umlinganisela
wexesha wokugqitywa kwalo kwanokokuba ikweliphi ngoku inqanaba.
Enkosi Mphathiswa.
UMPHATHISWA WAMANZI NOGUTYULO LELINDLE: Umzimvubu, ngokwenkcazelo,
liphulo ekwaqalwa ukuthethwa ngalo ngowe-1962 kude kube nanamhlanje.
Ingxaki ibiyeyokuba liza kwakhiwa njani eli dami nesikimu
sokunkcenkceshela ukuze abantu baxhamle. Emva kolonyulo lwama-2014
siye sathabatha inxaxheba kuphando lokufuna indlela yokukhawulezisa
ukwakhiwa kweli dami, kuquka amadami amabini iNtabelanga neLalini.
Ndithetha nje ngoku, sinabo abacebisi (consultants) abasizobela
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uyilo lwedami. Sivumelene nabo ukuba asisayikulinda iingxaki
zokufuna nokukhangela imali kuba eli phulo alisayi kuphumelela
ngemali esuka kuNondyebo kuphela. Liphulo elidinga iimali eziphuma
ngaphandle.
Kufuneka sikhumbule kwakhona ukuba uMongameli uJacob Zuma uye
wanesivumelwano nelizwe laseChina ukuba baze kusincedisa ekwakheni
eli dami kuba benolwazi oluphangaleleyo. Sesibeke imali ecaleni
ukulungiselela eli dami eliza kunceda ilali ezingaphezulu kwama-47
ezingazange zabanawo amanzi acocekileyo. Sikwiingxoxo nabathathinxaxheba baseMpuma Koloni kwaye kwiiveki ezimbini ezidlulileyo
besidibene neenkosi. Sesibakhululele abacebisi bethu ukuba bavule iofisi yabo yolawulo lweprojekhthi nathi neNkulumbuso yephondo siza
kuqulunkqa ikomiti yoququzelelo yezopolitiko (political steering
committee).
Saye sagqiba noMphathiswa uMalusi Gigaba ukuba sinikezele igunya
kuTrans-Caledon Tunnel Authority, TCTA, lokuya kufuna imali ukuze
sikwazi ukuqhubeleka phambili neDami laseNtabelanga. Lidami
laseNtabelanga eliza kwazi ukuba lenze imali eza kuncedisa ukuba
kwakhiwe iDama laseMzimvubu eliza kunceda abahlali baseMpuma Koloni
nabakwamanye amaphondo.
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Umceli-mngeni okhoyo ngowokuba la mhlaba kuza kwakhiwa kuwo
ayingokarhulumnente kwaye sibambe iingxoxo neenkosi sicela imvume
yokuwusebenzisa. Andingetsho ukuba eli phulo liza kuphela nini na
kuba silinde imali esiza kuyifumana. Sisalinde imali esuka
kubatyali-zimali ukuze sivumelane ngoyilo lweprojekhthi oluza
kubonisa ukuba luza kugqitywa nini na. Enkosi.
Xitsonga:
Man B T MATHEVULA: Mutshamaxitulu na Holobye, xosungula mati a ya
humi na sweswi eGiyani. Mati ya borhiwile kambe a ya humi. Loko hi
lava ku tiva leswaku hikokwalaho ka yini mati ya nga pfuleriwi hi
byeriwa leswaku ku hava dizele yo dumisa muchini wa mati. Ndzi
vutisa leswaku xana mi endla yini ku vona leswaku dizele yi va kona,
muchini wu ta kota ku pompa mati eGiyani?. Inkomu.
English:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, we should not
generalise and say there is no water in Giyani. There are sections
of Giyani that are as yet to be served but we currently have more
than 37 villages that out of the Giyani water scheme that was acted
upon after a court judgement in 2014, we have been able to do the
emergency services. This was after there were serious challenges in
terms of water supply. Secondly, hon Chairperson, it would become
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very important that we review the roles and responsibilities between
a Department of Water and municipalities, because the issue of a
diesel it is a responsibility of your Mopani or your local
municipality, not a responsibility of the Department of Water and
Sanitation.
Operation and maintenance of your water infrastructure rest with
your local authorities. It would be important to then verify whether
municipalities do put at least 10% of their budget in terms of meek
and municipal water infrastructure grants towards the operations and
maintenance in line with what has been agreed upon as part of the
back to basics for local government. That district is one of those
affected districts that have challenges of having the capacity. I
will therefore refer the member to raise this matter with Cogta, Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, on the capacity of
that municipality. I thank you.
Question 96:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, on the mechanism
to monitor water wastage, the department does have a monitoring
programme. It is a customised inline with the International Water
Association Water Balance spreadsheet that generates information on
water losses annually. Therefore, we now know as a country that
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South Africa losses not less than 7 billion worth of water as non
revenue water. What we are doing now is to work with our
municipalities, Cogta, Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs and the DBSA, Development Bank of Southern Africa. in
ensuring that we help municipalities to deal with the issues that
are related to water wastage and water losses. Of importance as well
is that we have amongst others invested on raising awareness around
water savings and the enforcement of bylaws by municipalities. Thank
you.
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I hear what Hon Minister have to say.
Given the fact and with all due respect that your department is
bankrupt ... [Interjections.] it is a fact, I sit in the Finance
Committee so I can tell you these things. So, given the fact hon
Minister that your department is bankrupt, in what way will you then
be able to alleviate the impact of drought and of the backlog of
infrastructure of water services, for example, Bushbuckridge in
Mpumalanga?1
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, let‘s stop
paddling lie. That‘s a damn lie.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister,
have you just said ‗damn lie‘?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Oh! That is not true. That is
not true. I beg your pardon, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Let‘s
continue, Ma‘am.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: That is incorrect, hon member.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, this is outrageous. The member must
formerly withdraw so that it can be on record.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister,
what was your response when I asked you whether you had just said
that what did you say?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I said ― I beg your pardon‖
... [Interjections.] that is not true. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Hatting,
it is always undignified to push any member where you reduce the
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dignity of that member. The apology suffices, should serve as a
withdrawal. Please proceed, Minister.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you for the acceptance,
hon Chair. I think it is not correct, be careful of paddlers of lies
because the department can never be bankrupt and the department is
not bankrupt. In fact, you members of this august House should
commend the department that in the midst of the three-year drought,
we had to redirect our resources and intervene beyond even the
constitutional demands and mandate of the Department of Water and
Sanitation by providing water tanks refurbishment of boreholes
creating the capacity to refurbish the best pipes that have actually
collapsed the asbestos pipes. Even going to an extent of appointing
water boards to go in and make interventions.
Then, on the issue that you say it is a fact, it is not a fact. It
is baseless and it is again about those who want to paddle lies and
do not want to appreciate the efforts that we have made.
Siswati:
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Ms L C DLAMINI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo lohlon. Besengimangele
ngobe tsine asikwati loku le ekomitini kutsi litiko lite imali;
kodvwa ...
English:
Chair, I want to follow up on the issue of war on leaks, the project
that was started by the department, checking on how are those ... I
don‘t know whether they call them learners or those officials
appointed which the target was 15 000 deployed. I had a meeting in
the constituency at Matsulu, last week. Mbombela don‘t have one. So,
I am just checking how the placement is done.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chair, we are now entering the
last leg of the intake. There have been those local areas that have
not had any intake. What we have done was to follow the magnitude of
water losses per municipality and I am sure that with the last leg
we would be able to consider those that have been left out. Of
importance, Chair, is that our approach is not just of ensuring that
every municipality has got, we also are working with the
municipalities to prepare for the absorption. Nevertheless, moving
forward this is the capacity that government must use across the
country.
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For this financial year our target is to make sure that we give
ourselves a particular amount of the R7 billion that we would be
able to recover. By the end of June 2017, we would be having the
total of the 15 000 that would have been trained and our approach is
to utilise them in three categories as they are trained, the water
ambassadors, the artisans and those that will be focussing on
plumbing. Thank you.
Mr M RAYI: Chairperson, I just wanted to check the progress with
regard to the mechanism that hon Minister is referring to, what
positive impact they are having in terms of the billions of litres
that are being wasted if I heard you correctly. What extent that
this mechanism positively reduces this? Also with regard to the
municipality, is there any carrot and stick approach that you employ
to encourage the municipalities?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, part of the
mechanisms that we are applying amongst other things it‘s the use of
the blue and the green drop evaluation of our municipalities as well
as working together with Cogta in ensuring that we respond to the
checklist as presented in the back to basics programme of saying
this is the capacity that the municipality requires. In the North
West for example, we do have an intergovernmental working group that
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is now helping to put together a turnaround strategy for the
municipalities.
Some of the interventions have not been sustainable. I am sure hon
members would remember the interventions that had to be made in
Ngaka Modiri Molema. One on completion, the systems and all the
services collapsed because the municipality did not put aside money
for operations and maintenance. It is those things that now we are
discussing working together with Cogta and National Treasury that
there must be participation and partnership across the entire value
chain of the water supply. On the young people two things that are
quite exciting about it is that there are those young people who
were graduates who have now been re-skilled and will now use this
kind of training as another way of getting job experience as well as
getting employment as compared to the time when they were actually
at home.
Then, we also have those that then becomes the water ambassadors who
raised the awareness in communities about water saving and water
conservation. What can actually be sustainable hon member, is when
together with local government and National Treasury we commit
municipalities in terms of the service level agreement on how they
spend their conditional grant as well as how they incorporate
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operations and maintenance of water and sanitation into their IDPs,
Integrated Development Plan. Thank you.
Question 111
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chair and hon members, I
have actually responded to part of the question, which is on the
programmes to raise awareness on the importance of water saving. We
also co-ordinate a number of education and awareness programmes;
namely, the SA Youth Water Price which is the programme that we
encourage innovation coming from young smart minds on how to save
and conserve water.
In the agricultural sector, we also have the social advocacy that
works for the water social advocacy. I assume hon members will
remember that the agricultural sector consumes more than 60% of
water in South Africa. Therefore, it is quite important that we do
advocacy work in the agricultural sector to deal with water
contamination, the use of pesticides and chemicals and also to
encourage alternative methods of irrigation.
One amongst the six programmes is the school and community outreach
programme. Hon Chair, we do have details of these kinds of
programmes that we can share with hon members. However, I just
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tabulated those various programmes that deal with awareness and
empowerment of communities, as well as the drop-the-block where we
distribute blocks that we put into our sanitation solutions to save
not less than two litres in every cistern that you have in your
home.
That reduces the cost of water that you pay to your municipality,
but also it takes water back to the municipality system, and then
out of that, you are able to get the rebates from the municipality.
Thank you.
Sesotho:
Ms M L MOSHODI: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. Ke lebohe Letona ka karabo
eo ke e fumaneng ho tswa ho yena mabapi le diphephetso tsa metsi
kahare ho naha. Letona le hlomphehileng, beke e fetileng mane
porofenseng ya Foreisetata toropong e bitswang Kerstel seterekeng sa
Maloti a Phofung, ho ne ho ena le pitso e neng e tshwerwe moo, ke
moo setjhaba sa teng se neng se halefile ebile se utlwile bohloko ka
lebaka la tlhokeho ya metsi. Ke nako e telele e ka etsang dikgwedi
le dibeke ba se na metsi.
Kopo yaka ho wena Letona le hlomphehileng, ke hore na ho ka ba jwang
ha o ka kopana le profense ya Foreisetata, wa kopana le bomasepala
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ho bona hore na le ka thusa jwang batho ba Kerstel ka tlhokeho eo ya
metsi; hobane ha ne ke ba mametse ba ne ba bile ba qolla hore o
thusitse Qwaqwa haholo ka tlhokeho ya metsi mme re a leboha re le
mmuso wa Foreisetata.
Ntlha enngwe hape Letona le hlomphehileng, ke botsa hore na ha re na
le tlhokeho e kanakana ya metsi kahara naha borakgwebo ba rona bona
ba re thusa jwang. Ke a leboha Modulasetulo.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Ha ke lebohe motshwara marapo,
ke lebohe le wena kgaitsedi e hlomphehileng. Maloti a Phofung ke o
mong wa bomasepala ba rona moo re nang le mathata a tlhokeho ya
metsi haholo; empa bothata boo ha se bothata feela bo etswang ke ho
sa be teng ha metsi le komello, ho na le matamo a mararo ao a neng a
sa kopangwa, a neng a ahuwe dilemong tse fetileng tsa kgatello, moo
matamo a mabedi a neng e le ona a tsamaisang metsi ho ya
metsesetoropong le ho bona borakgwebo.
Makeisheneng a rona le mahaeng, bona ba ne ba sebedisa feela letamo
le le leng. Seo re se entseng kehore re se re kentse Boto ya rona ya
metsi e bitswang ―Sedibeng Water‖ hore e kenye letsoho ho kopanya
matamo ana a mararo hore ho be le kabelano ya metsi. Ha letamo le
leng le fellwa ke metsi ho be le tsebo le bokgoni bahore letamo le
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leng le tla fepela leo hore metsi a finyelle bathong ba rona.
Setjhaba se sengatangata se senang metsi.
Baahi ba Kerstel ke ba bone pitsong eo le dillo tsa bona ka di
utlwa. Le bona, ba tla fumana monyetla moo Sedibeng selemong sena sa
ditjhelete se setjha. Sedibeng e tla fuwa molaetsa hape wa ho
ntshetsapele morero ona hodima mosebetsi oo re seng re o qadile
Qwaqwa.
Seo re se kopang hodima moo kehore, re kopile Letona la Cogta la
profense, Kopanelo ya Puso le Ditshebeletso tsa Mahae, hore le lona
le thuse hobane Maloti a Phofung a tshwana le ditereke tse ding tse
27 tse se nang bokgoni. Jwalokaha re bua hajwale re thusana le Cogta
hore ba be le Motsamaisi wa Masepala, ba be le Dihloho tsa
Tekenikale ho tsa Ditshebeletso, le hore ba tshehetse Boto ya metsi
eo ya bona - ke lebetse lebitso la yona, eo ba ikahetseng yona
hobane bokgoni bo ka ba teng hafeela ba tiisa bokgoni ba Boemedi ba
Metsi ba bona.
Borakgwebo ba thusa jwang, re na le ―Strategic Water Partners
Network South Africa‖ Mokgwa wa Tsamaiso ya Mesebetsi wa Marangrang
a Kopanelo Afrika Borwa, e hlomphuwang lefatshe ka bophara, moo re
buisanang teng le borakgwebo ba kenyang letsoho, jwaloka Sasol,
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Coca-Cola e leng bona ba re thusang hore re be le bokgoni ba ho
hlokomela metsi le ho a sebedisa ka tshwanelo.
Leha ho le jwalo, se bohlokwa kehore le bona borakgwebo ba hloka
tshehetso hobane bomasepala ba rona ba fumana ditefello ho tswa ho
borakgwebo, empa ba sitwe ho lefella metsi ho diboto tsa metsi, le
ho rona. Qetellong, e re jwale ha se re re re kwala kabelano ya
metsi ebe le bona ba kgina ditefello ba sa thabele seo puso e se
etsang. Jwale hee, ke tsona dintho tseo re ntseng re di shebile,
tseo re buisanang ka tsona le bona borakgwebo ba rona ho ya ka
mokgatlo oo re o theileng o bitswang ―Strategic Water Partners
Network South Africa.‖ Ke a leboha.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, Chairperson. Based on the awareness and
achieving the intended objectives, I want to go back to the original
question Chairperson, South Africa is a water stressed country, we
lose about R17 billion worth of water annually due to leaks. Surely
all efforts that must be made to reduce loses and it is welcomed
including awareness programmes.
However, most projects and programmes launched by this department
always have some or other hidden agendas. That does not meet the
intended purposes as stated in the question. The launch of the War
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on Leaks Programmes, for instance, the launched in 2015 by President
Zuma in Nelson Mandela Bay saw ANC t-shirts handed out at the
government event.
There were even prayers for the ANC success in 2016 elections
although we know that those prayers were never answered. You even
lost the election using government money and your own R1 billion
from the ANC. Now, what I want ask is that: Will the Minister, at
least, give a guarantee to this House that these awareness
programmes that we so much need and other campaigns will not in
future be used as political campaigns by the ANC because it is not
serving the intended purposes? Thank you Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, this province in
which we are is governed by the DA, we have awareness programmes
here. This province is highly affected by the drought and we are
making interventions here. We were dealing with serious challenges
of the inability to intervene on the informal settlement with regard
to dignified sanitation. It was here.
So, for you to come and say that our awareness programmes are
actually driven on the basis of political interests - if we were not
a government of the people of South Africa, we would not be
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bothering on the Western Cape. In fact, we would be playing
politics.
We refused to bring politics into the space. What we would also not
undermine is the fact that in every community there are dominant
role-players; and as I‘m saying even here. We work with their water
councillors and we work with the ANC councillors.
If people in a particular area are predominantly ANC I can‘t tell
them to stay away as I don‘t say stay away here in the Western Cape.
I work with your MEC on how they mobilise people who are
participating. It is not my business as long as we serve our people.
That is cheap politics. Thanks.
Mr E MAKUE: Thank you, Chairperson. My question, hon Minister, is
also on the awareness raising but looking at it from a completely
different angle. My experiences with many communities sharing a
similar experience where when you have burst pipes and you report to
the municipality, you have to wait for hours before any repairs are
done and millions of litres are wasted in that way.
Is the national department able to help the ordinary citizen with a
point of complaint where we can raise these matters; because I
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discovered, Chair, that when I then speak to people, people are
saying it makes no sense to complain because nobody is responding on
it? And we find that the good work that has been done on raising
awareness goes down the drain because of the poor service from some
municipalities. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thanks, hon Chair and hon
member. It is a fair point that communities do raise these
frustrations of us harping on them being aware and saving water and
the enforcement of by-laws against them. We have also come to
realise that we need to put our own way of monitoring the
municipalities in terms of responses.
We do have a number that we have now since established that when
people in our awareness programme - when people are not satisfied
with the municipality we escalate it to their Cogta department in
the provinces so that we are able to deal with these issues. It is
my view that before we leave here, I will leave the hotline number
that we have recently launched so that when you are not satisfied
you must say I logged a complaint with my municipality X and then we
take it to that municipality, and we make a follow-up.
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Part of the reasons sometimes have to do with the municipality being
overwhelmed and not being able to respond on these issues; but the
drought has really also helped us because the municipalities
themselves have started to pick up.
We have seen how Mangaung has now come on board in dealing with
early warning systems. We have seen EThekwini as well as the City of
Tshwane, the three Metros are actually now leading. Johannesburg has
also been acknowledged together with Port Elizabeth in this regard.
There is a hotline that we have established – I‘m sure hon members
can take the number, unless I submit it to you. It is 0800200200,
you don‘t send a please call me. You log a complaint - he is here
for other things. So this is what we are ... [Interjection.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected hon Julius.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Oh sorry, Mam! So, what we are
saying is this must not be the first point of call, members of the
public must call this number and then say to us, we have called our
municipality and they gave us a reference number. Then we will make
a follow-up on the reference number that the municipality has given
you and never responded to. Thank you.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you hon Minister. We move to the
next Question, which is Question 70 posed by hon Khawula.
Question 70:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chair, may I beg your
indulgence? We do not have Question 70 on our list. I would request
that we be given time and come back on it.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, thank you for that. Hon
Minister, do you have Question 98 which is the hon Essack‘s
Question?
Question 98:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Yes. Chairperson, I‘ve been to
this House to respond to the same Question about the foreign
engineers and technicians. There are 37 foreign engineers appointed
in the 2016-17 financial year of which 31 are on contract and six on
a permanent basis since they have acquired South African
citizenship. The department has not contracted any foreign
technicians in 2016-17. Of the total 37 employees, 32 engineers are
from Cuba and five are from Zimbabwe. The amount budgeted for in
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relation to these employees is implemented in line with the work and
the rules of our own partnerships, and the work that has to be done.
I think we need to really also kill this whole thing about the Cuban
engineers. Firstly, part of what the Cuban engineers are doing is
skills development of our own nonaccredited engineers; secondly,
building capacity in line with our own binational agreement with the
people of Cuba; thirdly, what they have also been able to do ... all
of them are actually placed in those municipalities and regions that
do not have the capacity; and lastly, I think it will also be quite
important that we need to appreciate that they have not taken
anybody‘s job but what they have been able to do is to do what many
of our own engineers and our own institutions are resisting in terms
of the transformation of the engineering sector ... transferring the
knowledge and going to work in the far-flung areas, whereas other
people would want to remain in the metro. I really do believe that
we need to close the chapter about this issue being used as an
attack on the Cuban people, also given our historical relationship
and their own professional knowledge.
The same applies to the Zimbabweans. When somebody gets national
status, we can‘t also be saying that they cannot actually be given
an opportunity.
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By the way, through you Chair, we also need to accept that it is
wrong and not true that they are not accredited by the international
bodies. They could not be accredited because there was a blockage
against Cuba. However, Cuban engineers are even working in Spain and
in the very USA. They have their own silent contracts with them, and
in fact some European countries, including Italy, take their own
people to work with the Cubans to learn how to deal with the issues
of maintenance. We‘ll not shy away from this issue of employing.
However, we must not incite our people and be xenophobic because the
Cuban people were much more patriotic than some of the white people
of South Africa.
[Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I‘ve got to live with this. [Laughter.}
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected hon Essack.
Mr F ESSACK: I‘ve got used to it now Chairperson; no worries. I‘ve
heard the motivation hon Minister. I‘ve heard your motivation and to
a great extent I respect what you say. So mine is a very, very
simple Question based on the knowledge that you seem to have in
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front of you. Tell us in simple English how many South African
engineers then remain unemployed. Simple. Easy. Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I do not actually keep data on
the number of unemployed South African professionals. In fact, if I
can take it ... Listen, in fact, what I can actually attest to is
that through this programme many of our black engineers are now
accredited due to having been given an opportunity of job on job
experience working together with these Cuban engineers because our
own professional service providers in this country are reluctant in
accrediting and giving support to our own black engineers. Hence, we
have few black-owned engineering companies that can do work in this
country.
So, I will never regret a progressive decision that has been taken,
and in fact, black engineers in Mpumalanga will tell you that since
the coming in of the Cuban engineers they now have accredited
certificates because of the work that they have executed. Thank you.
Question 112:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Madam Chair and hon member, on
bucket eradication, the focus is on your old formal townships in the
following four provinces, the North West, which we have now
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completed; the Eastern Cape; Free State and the Northern Cape
provinces. Out of the 52 249 buckets identified in these provinces,
we have eradicated a total of 26 514 with an appropriate sanitation
technology.
As we speak now, on the difference in this number, 14 000 are
already under reconstruction and not more than 8 000 are now
remaining for implementation in the financial year, 2017-18. There
has been a lot of experience hon Chair, and I think also with your
previous life and other hon members seated here that initially when
the bucket eradication approach was conceptualised, there was an
assumption that you would count the number of stands, a toilet and
the furniture and say that‘s how you eradicate, when in actual fact
it also means the upgrade of a wastewater treatment plant, the
installation of bulk infrastructure and also the connection of
additional water. Out of that, then we have eradicated the bucket.
Since the proclamation of this particular department, the Department
of Water and Sanitation, we are now dealing with the entire value
chain because in the Eastern Cape you have had buckets that were
standing there and toilets that were not functioning.
In the Free State, we have had those kinds of challenges. So, our
approach is to really carry that intention of a dignified sanitation
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solution by not doing the house and the furniture without the laying
of the bulk infrastructure. We are now also talking to the
Department of Human Settlements and the Department of Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, to ensure that as part of their
use of the urban settlement development grant, they also start
investing on the maintenance of your wastewater treatment plants
because it is a function of local government, but with this, we have
now being forced to deal even with the issues of bulk infrastructure
when initially everybody was saying, you have R52 000, go and build
and yet it was not about that.
In the Northern Cape, we had to go and blast the rocks so that we
can install. We had to go and connect water so that we deal with
those issues.
The Amathole challenges outside of this one, we are resolving it
working together with the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA,
and the Amathole District Municipality and Municipal Information
System Association, Misa, in the department of Co-operative
Governance. Thanks, Chair.
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, one can see that you are moving forward.
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You have curtailed the backlog and we appreciate that you are not
doing it alone. You are roping in other stakeholders and other
departments to come on board to ensure that we do away completely
with this kind of situation, which is as a result of the apartheid
regime.
You made mention of a very interesting system earlier on that uses
less water and a lot of pressure. I think your department is
adopting that system because it‘s going to assist a great deal in
terms of saving water. Otherwise, thank you very much. I am quite
happy with your response.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chair, I am also appreciating the response from the
hon Minister, especially that they have taken note of the fact that
if you talk about eradication of bucket system, it‘s not only about
removing the bucket but the whole value chain. I appreciate that.
But what I would like to know, you have mention Amathole as an area
that you are not done with. But I just want to check because there
is an area in Adelaide, where there is also serious problem of
bucket system. Is it included in your programme, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION:
Hon Chair, I was taking
advantage of the Deputy Minister because she is from the Eastern
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Cape as to where is Adelaide? There are municipalities that are
outside of Amathole and those I assume that Adelaide may be one of
those. If it is an old formal township then it means it is part of
that.
Amathole was put aside because of how it was modelled and package
and we are now finding a solution. So, I want to say just on the
side of caution that if it is an old formal township, it is also
part of those in the Eastern Cape. The Eastern Cape has the largest
number of outstanding buckets. Thanks, Chair.
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Minister, I see you are hard at work as it appears
from what you are telling us. Water is life; sanitation is dignity.
I come from the Eastern Cape.
My question is: When can we expect the complete eradication of this
bucket system so that our people can be given dignity? I know it‘s
going to take time but from where you are sitting are you able to
give us an indication, must we wait for another year, two or three,
four, five, another 10 years, just an idea? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chair, thank you very much
for raising the issue. When this project was launched while still
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with the Department of Human Settlements, there was an indication
that, yes, it has to be time bound. The sad part was that there was
no study of the extent of infrastructure you need to eradicate the
bucket. That is the thing that I am quite weary to say that we can
do that as we have learned with the Northern Cape. The Northern Cape
had the least of the number. But the Northern Cape took more money
because of the blasting, because of the connection, because of the
absence of water in Springbok and having to connect from afar.
So, what I can say, hon member, is that possibly what we can furnish
you with is per province - give you the extent of the work that goes
in the eradication so that then granted the resources and the work
that would end up with the top structure and the furniture, you
would then appreciate to extent.
I think the mistake that we have done, was to immediately look at
and count the units, hon Chair, and an assumption that we just going
to deal with this issue without dealing with the bulk infrastructure
like I am saying. The money for wastewater treatment plants is with
our municipalities. If we are going to deal with this in the Eastern
Cape, it means that we must then say they must plan for the
maintenance, including the upgrade of those wastewater treatment
plants.
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It‘s an unfortunate lesson we must learn. But I think now that it is
under sanitation, we are dealing with the entire value chain of
provision of dignified sanitation solution and looking also at
alternative sanitation solutions, like less water bonsoir and dry
water sanitation solutions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was your last question. We want to
thank you for coming through and for waiting patiently throughout
the day. Thank you, Ma‘am. On the hon Nxesi, congratulations on
being the new Minister of Sport, you are welcome.
Question 113:
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the Department of
Sports and Recreation transformation plans are guided by the
transformation Charter which forms part of the strategic plan
adopted by the sport community at an indaba held in 2011. And the
purpose of the Charter currently under review is to guide the
involvement of an accessible fair demographically, representative,
sustainable and competitive sporting system. And following an Indaba
Transformation Commission, the Eminent Persons Group, EPG, was
appointed by Minister Fikile Mbalula in 2011-12 with a mandate to
monitor and evaluate the implementation of the transformation
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Charter for sports to advice the Minister on punitive matters with
respect to sporting bodies not driving transformation to the logical
conclusion - And also to make recommendations and offer long term
strategic direction on transformation in sport.
The number of the codes audited currently is 19 and they will be
progressively increased over the next five years. To date, three
transformation audit reports have been completed. By the way
Chairperson, the fourth one I received this morning and these
reports have deepened the understanding into the factors impacting
on the rate and the extent of the transformation and included
recommendations to deal with the key issues. So to allow for unique
differences between the different codes and to encourage a more
forward looking approach to transformation, the barometer process
was introduced.
The process based on the memorandum of understanding between Sports
and Recreation South Africa, South African Sports Confederation and
Olympic Committee, SASCOC, and the individual federations allows for
federations to set their goals and select strategic transformation
areas or to project performance in these areas over the period of
five years in future.
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A number of federations entering into the Memorandum of
Understanding, MOU, will be increased on annual bases. Of the five
federations involved in the process, four, namely; rugby, cricket,
netball and athletics did not achieve the required rate in their
first year and had their privileges to bid for and stage
international tournament locally revoked. Based on the latest data
which was released today, rugby, cricket and netball have now
achieved the required pass rate and therefore qualify for their
privileges to be restored hence I announce today that their
privileges to bid internationally have been reinstated, they can be
able to do that. This has raised a big debate in the public
currently.
IsiZulu:
Nk L C DLAMINI: Sihlalo, ngimuhalalisele uNgqongqoshe kusikhundla
sakhe esisha, cha, ngenelisekile ngempendulo.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister that was a comment. Hon
members, I do not have any other hand which means hon Minister, we
move on to the next question. The next question is number 114 posed
by the hon Mthethwa. I do not have any instruction about this. I do
not see hon Mthethwa in the House. If he is not in the House, the
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question falls away. I move on to question number 115. To you hon
Minister, it is a question from the hon Moshodi.
Question 115:
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, Sport and
Recreation SA does have plans to build facilities for sport and
recreation in various urban, rural and disadvantaged areas. The
department has determined allocations to the amount of R300 million
in the Municipality Infrastructure Grant fund outside the formula in
the 2017-18 financial year. These funds are ring-fence funds and can
only be spent on the projects identified by Sport and Recreation SA.
The schedule per province and municipalities are available as
annexure in the table of Parliament, as the written part for this
reply, which we will be able to submit.
In addition, the department will continue to appeal for the delivery
of the outdoor community gyms and children play parks by
municipalities that can be used in open spaces within the
communities.
During the 2017-18 financial year, ten community gyms have been
prioritised to be provided, with at least one per province. The
intention is to assist the local community members as well as
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athletes in disadvantaged areas to have access to opportunities, to
train and improve their fitness and health.
Through partnerships with Sports Trust, the department is able to
significantly fast-track citizen access to sport and recreation
facilities by delivering specialised multipurpose sport courts and
other infrastructure projects that are implemented in schools and
communities.
However, I must emphasise that the grant by municipalities has
unfortunately not been used for the purpose it is supposed to. I
think that is what the hon members, together with the department,
must monitor, because that grant can take us somewhere. Thank you.
Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Chair, my question is whether the department has
done any auditing of the current infrastructure in the rural and
public schools and has the department developed a quantifiable
figure that is needed to address the lack of infrastructure in
schools in the rural and township areas. If so, what is the figure
and does the department have any radical programme to put schools in
rural and township areas on par with urban and former white schools?
If not, why not and what is the plan to increase funding for school
infrastructure in the rural and townships areas? Thank you.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, the hon member is making
a follow-up question. She seems to have put a lot of questions
there. You are to respond to one. It is a supplementary question.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Once a pilot, always a pilot
and once a teacher, always a teacher. As much as I am new in this
portfolio, it is very interesting issues. The department has been
instructed to do exactly what the hon member is talking about. We
should do an audit of the facilities in schools. Unfortunately,
school sport, by legislation, belongs to Basic Education. So, we
have to work together. We are awaiting the report and we want to use
that report as the basis of moving forward. We think, once we have
that particular report, we will be able to prioritise certain most
disadvantaged districts and start with what we call the sports
centres.
Part of our programme - I think one of the coming questions is
raising this matter directly - is to establish how we encourage
physical education because sport was part of physical education.
Some of us will remember the sport on Wednesdays, which is now no
longer in most of the disadvantaged schools. The teachers use to
play a very significant role. It means that there must also be
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engagement with the educators. We will have to do that together with
the main department, which is Basic Education.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon Chair, Minister, understanding that you are new
in the department, as you have indicated, my follow-up question is
in line with the question that was asked on promoting boxing. I
would like to check from the department if there is a plan for
having a boxing centre in any of the provinces. I am asking this
question because if you look at soccer and rugby, you see that they
have proper fields to play on, but if you look at boxing, it is the
opposite. Yet, in South Africa, we are collecting a lot of
championships in different international countries. I would also
persuade the department that it should be in the Eastern Cape,
Buffalo City, in particular.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Ncitha is very diplomatic.
She says, ―the plan for boxing in any of the provinces‖. She is not
saying, the plan for the Eastern Cape. The reality is that boxing is
almost 98% a black sport and the Eastern Cape is the dominant
province. Unfortunately, there is an issue of managers, promoters
and so on, which are so disintegrated in dealing with this
particular matter. We are planning to have a meeting because I am
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now in what I call a listening a learning campaign to understand
what is going on in the various sporting codes.
After meeting with rugby next week, I am also meeting with boxing,
although I have already met with the President and CEO of Boxing SA.
These are the issues we want to talk about.
We hope that the sporting centres that we are talking about are
multipurpose and have a number of facilities, especially for some of
the key codes. We hope that boxing is going to be one of them. I
suspect that there needs to be some fast-tracking in boxing and the
unfortunate part of it is that there tends to be a lot of different
structures competing and fighting about how this should be done. We
are trying to pull them together, so that we can have a common
programme.
So, there are serious plans. I know that my predecessor, Minister
Mbalula, has been dealing with the matter, in terms of the
intervention and focussing on a particular area that has produced
many of our boxing legends. Thank you.
Question 81:
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The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: In the previous financial year
the facilities count was conducted throughout the country and that
was done through the provincial departments and municipalities. A
total of those 4 500 facilities were counted. Remember this was
national though; not about the schools because there was a question
which focused on the schools only.
In Gauteng 1 008 facilities were counted, of which 142 were from
rural areas; 189 from the semi-urban; and 677 from urban areas. A
total of 22 cricket facilities were counted. There were 20 community
halls that cater for boxing; and 25 rugby facilities were counted.
Sometimes it becomes very difficult to differentiate between the
concept ‗rural‘ and ‗urban‘ because it because it becomes a
continual in some of the areas. You will find that you start from
what you think is mainly rural, but it becomes something else
towards the big city.
Although the construction of these facilities is the primary mandate
of municipalities, the Department of Sport and Recreation in South
Africa is assisting municipalities to achieve the construction of
facilities. In 1917-18 financial year, the following municipalities
will be benefiting from the Municipality Grant as I have also
indicated before, although it is not a big number: Lesedi Local
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Municipality, Emfuleni Local Municipality and Rand West City
Municipality.
This is over and above the others where we are approaching the
private sector to also come into the party because if you look into
the budget of Sport and Recreation, you must just be honest that it
is so minimal. A billion rand: Half of it goes into the provinces;
and the other half which is left, the biggest percentage goes into
personnel expenditure. So, there needs to be a case of funding of
sport if we are serious, if we want to build national competitive
teams and if we want to build facilities all over.
The construction of specific facilities with specific codes are as
per the priorities of municipalities as guided by the integrated
development plans, which then says to members: It is very important
that we interrogate those integrated development plans, IDPs, versus
the grants which they are getting for sport.
Mr W F FABER: Minister, I would like to know: What is the department
doing to maintain the 2010 World Cup legacy of Mr Danny Jordaan? For
instance, in Uitenhage, Port Elizabeth, where these legacies have
been dilapidated, it was shocking and I have been there: It is the
most beautiful hockey field that was build, with synthetic grass.
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However, cattle are walking around there, the fences have been
stolen and even the mast lights have been stolen.
These are sporting facilities that the youth can actually use.
Minister, I hope the new broom sweeps clean and I really do hope
that you think of people of the Eastern Cape. I really do believe
that you saw the rugby last week. It was exciting to see the Eastern
Cape after cleaning up the administration mess in there. The new
Eastern Cape Rugby seems to be on board; they are doing well. I want
you to please look at the Eastern Cape, specifically when we look at
... [Interjections.] Chairperson, can I be protected.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are
protected!
Mr W F FABER: Thank you, Chairperson. When we look at Uitenhage,
what will you do to revive this legacy that was left behind in
ruins? Will you think of building it up again so that the community
can really find the benefit or will you leave it in ruins as it is?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Faber,
your question referred to Gauteng. Hon Minister, you are free to
respond but the supplementary should have been centred on Gauteng.
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Am I correct? [Interjections.] Yeah, I think I am taking the liberty
of the after-eight effect.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I will be biased because
although we belong to different political parties, we are friends
with hon Faber. However, I think the issue of maintenance is a very
serious matter. We are looking into that matter. It is one of the
things which I have suggested nationally, not just in Gauteng. It is
a very serious matter because we tend to put structures and after
that we don‘t look after those structures. This is my experience
from Public Works when it comes to government buildings and so on,
which are not looked after.
I have said: Let‘s look into the concept of the EPWP in sport, where
we are going to have some people who can be trained to look after
these facilities. We will have to do that with municipalities
because these are located within the jurisdictions of the various
municipalities. The must come into the budget. If we were to sit and
think, we can be able to maintain those facilities and be able to
create jobs.
Mr E MAKUE: Minister, we appreciate the question that was raised by
hon Faber, referring to Gauteng and the previously disadvantaged
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communities there. If I look at the Bosmond Football Association in
the Western Township, how it makes Madiba to smile when you look at
the young people there. It is amazing that many of them are coming
from outside the area, mainly from Soweto, playing their sport in
that area.
You have alluded to the problems that we have with maintenance, but
my question is: Minister, do you have any influence that you can
wield on the private sector to come to the party, to join those
communities in ensuring that the basic necessities of these children
who are needy are indeed supported by the private sector, to keep
them away from drunks?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: The private sector has played
a significant role in terms of sponsorship in this country when it
comes to sport, but unfortunately some tend to go for big sports
activities which are very visible on television and so on. I think
we need to engage with them, to talk about grassroots levels. That
is going to be important
However; one of the issues we have to talk about is accountability.
When people talk about accountability, they tend to look at
government and look at the Constitution. Some of the sponsors
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willingly and positively engage and give whatever little they are
giving. There has been a lot of poor governance and administration
in relation to the accountability of sponsors.
One of the issues we have to deal with is accountability for
everybody- government, sport administrators and so on – whoever is
getting the money. I think that is what has also driven away some of
the sponsors. It is our intention that as we engage with the private
sector, we also try and persuade them to invest even more at the
lower levels.
I know that we are going to be having a session this coming weekend
where there is going to be a lot of private sector where I am
supposed to be making an input. My input is going to focus exactly
on what we are talking about. Also, we will be engaging with
individual private companies to say: How about putting something in
that particular area? So, it is part of the plans. Already some of
them are doing it. Thank you.
Question 116:
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, it is not
very different from one of the follow ups but I can say the
department has plans to promote boxing. The department in
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conjunction with Boxing South Africa, BSA, convened a boxing Indaba
in 2015. This included all the key boxing stakeholders in the
country. The outcomes and resolutions of the boxing indaba formed
the cornerstone of the roadmap for the revival of boxing. Among the
key resolutions is that funding for sport of boxing at amateur level
must be increased in order to develop boxers towards joining the
professional ranks.
Another key resolution was to promote roll-out of boxing at school
level within the ambit of the schools sport programme. Funding is a
major challenge that we are confronted with and there is a big case
to be made for the increase of funding for sport in spite of the
tough global economic environment that we find ourselves in. We are
taking this matter very seriously but I can tell you that part of
the problem has to do with various promoters, managers and the issue
of boxers just getting a pittance from the big money which is
invested. We are dealing with all those issues. Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Nks P C SAMKA: Ndanelisekile Sihlalo enkosi.
English:
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Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister. It
is with great passion that I want to ask the follow up question
because I was also a boxer and coming from the area ... Madam, can
you protect me, otherwise I will protect myself.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are
protected otherwise your fists will be doing the protection.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, not enough was done to promote boxing
in all areas. There tend to be a bias in our country where we
develop boxing. If you look at my community, for instance,
Randfontein where the Minister in Rand West City Local Municipality
invested in other sporting codes but we do not have a gym for boxing
that is so much needed. Over 15 years the municipality sold our gym
to the NGO and still we do not have a gym.
Just to emphasise the importance of the area Chairperson, you might
recognise and other members, Aladdin Stevens, ‗the Mean Machine‘ was
born there; Peter ‗Terror‘ Mathebula, the first black South African
boxing champion is from there; Jan Bergman also a world boxing
champion, you cannot tell me, I have been living with these guys;
Simon Ramoni world boxing champion; Trevor Ross, world boxing
champion; Jan Losper, South African boxing champion; Andrew Matyila,
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South African boxing champion; Ben Konki, intercontinental boxing
champion; Jansen White, the list goes on and on and all are from
there.
The crux of the matter is that our trainers are getting old now and
they do not have jobs. One of the world‘s renowned trainers that
trained Jan Bergman and others is training at the bottom of the
soccer stands — underneath it. You know it is not right. We engaged
the local municipality and they said that there is a multipurpose
centre coming up. For over 10 years, nothing has been done and they
claim that there is no money and it is getting more expensive every
year.
I would love the Minister to make an undertaking to meet with these
champions because there is a real interest in sport but we do not
grow. Currently, we only have one world champion after these 10
years we are sold one world champion Malcolm Klassen but he is
coming from the rags or back door where he was trained. Please
Minister, undertake to come and meet with these professionals so
that we can move forward. Thank you, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
the member like all the other members is selling his place and we
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have been listening to a number of members doing exactly the same
thing. The only think is that he exceeded his two minutes and forgot
to coin a question at the end but you are protected.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, our approach
cannot just be biased to one area. We have to be national in our
approach but I think if we have to revive certain areas which used
to be the stronghold of boxing, we have to go to Randfontein. Part
of the plan which I feel we have not done enough is that a number of
sports persons are not utilised by us once their age is over.
Whether in any of the codes, be it soccer, we have a lot of players;
you go to rugby, you have got a lot of black players who have done
very well and even in boxing but we have never put a programme to
mobilise those people to do something in the communities, help and
work with them.
Definitely it is our intention as part of this big transformation to
develop coaches into professionals to be able help. So, we would be
visiting those areas but I thought that you are supposed to
celebrate hon Julius when we are talking about coming to one of your
municipalities. Thank you.
Question 108:
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The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thanks, Chairperson. The
Department of Sport and Recreation South Africa has, what is known
as a winning nation programme whose‘ purpose is to support the
development of the elite athletes. The scientific support sub
programme aims to nature developing talents through the management
and co-ordination of the various athletes support programmes. It
provides a range of services that are of a scientific nature to
developing and elite sport.
The Sports and Recreation South Africa provides other services
beyond purely scientific services. Learners with exceptional talents
excelling in national school sports championships are provided with
a Ministerial Sport Bursary to the value of R100,000 per annum; and
60 of such athletes will be supported in 2017-18.
This programme also provides scientific support to 40 emerging
athletes so that they will be able to serve as a pipeline for future
high performance course. Another 40 elite athletes are supported by
South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, SASCOC,
through the Operation Excellence, OPEX, programme. This include
Olympic and Paralympics athletes.
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The Department of Sports and Recreation South Africa will support
SASCOC to deliver team South Africa to 2017 World Games in Poland,
the 2017 Common Worldview Games, in Bahamas in 2018, the Winter
Olympic and Paralympics Games at Pyeongchang in South Korea. The
programme will also assist in preparing the athletes for the 2018
Commonwealth Games in Australia. Thank you, Chair.
Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister thank you, I‘m quite
happy with the response. However, you have got a lot of work at your
disposal and your budget is very little. We are not going to allow
as Parliament the situation where the Department of Sports and
Recreation is treated as some kind of Cinderella department.
Some of the issues we will pursue at the level of the select
committee because I want to know what lottery is doing. The
conceptualisation of lottery was meant to address the issues
relating to sport. I don‘t know what happened, but let us take it
further at the level of the select committee. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister that was a comment, do you
wish to make a further comment?
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The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Ngisasemusha phela la kumele
ngiye. (I‘m new in this position, I have to.) However, I‘m thrilled
to what the hon member is saying especially on the role of lottery.
I think at some stage even at the level of the portfolio committees
there might be a need for a joint meeting with the portfolio
committee which is controlling the lottery; because in my
understanding, Lotto was meant in the main to support sport.
At the moment less than 15% has been ring-fenced and we are not even
getting that 15%. It is divided into different things, and so on. So
I think the issue of Lotto is going to be very important that it is
engaged. I will also engage with the Ministry concerned but I think
even the portfolio committees would need to engage this particular
issue. Thank you.
Mr A J NYAMBI: Eh, it is not a question. [Interjection.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are not telling us that you are a
boxer too.
Mr A J NYAMBI: No, you can see the body. It is clarifying
everything, a real boxer unlike hon Julius.
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It is a comment, hon Chairperson, to indicate to the Minister that
it is not only the issue of the portfolio committee but in this
August House NCOP, we do have the relevant select committee that is
doing oversight to that Lotto structure.
So the relevant portfolio committee can work with the relevant
select committee here in the NCOP and call both of them in one
meeting to assist you and make sure that you are assisted hon
Minister. That was just a comment, hon Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Batswana people would say ―Ke la me
leo‖.
Hon members, indeed, I think we should say thank you to the
Minister. Minister, you were our last whipping horse for the day. We
thank you very much.
Hon members, I must also thank you for being here since ten o‘clock
this morning. You are really earning your keep, therefore to quote
the former President Kgalema: ―You don‘t thank a fish for swimming‖
because it is doing its job except when it has gone beyond the call
of duty.
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Hon members, I also want to say that some of the members who had to
leave here have not just gone missing. We do have members who have
left, who are at the PAP. We have members who have had to go tonight
still, to the Northern Cape on oversight.
So we thank you all for the manner in which you have conducted your
business today and we want to say that this concludes the business
of the day and that you are requested to remain standing until the
procession has left the House.
Debate concluded.
The Council adjourned at 21:03.
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