Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 23 Feb 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 1 of 376
TUESDAY, 23 FEBRUARY 2016
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 10:07.
The House Chairperson: International Relations and Members Support
took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence
for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members. I have
been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no
notices of motion or motions without notice today, except for
motions on the Order Paper. We now come to the first motion on the
Order Paper as printed in the name of the Chief Whip.
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chairperson, I move the motion
as printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 2 of 376
That the Council, notwithstanding Rule 247(1) which provides
that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral
questions, considers a resolution for the establishment of an
ad hoc joint committee.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, Limpopo,
Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
ABSTAIN: KwaZulu-Natal.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chairperson, I move the motion
as printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That
the
Council,
subject
to
the
concurrence
of
the
National
Assembly, establishes an ad hoc joint committee in terms of Joint
Rule 138, the committee to —
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(1)
consider
Planning,
PAGE: 3 of 376
the
request
by
Monitoring
the
and
Minister
Evaluation,
in
the
tabled
Presidency:
in
the
Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports on 18 August
2015 and 26 January 2016, for Parliament to recommend seven
candidates for appointment to the board of the National Youth
Development Agency in terms of section 9 of the National
Youth Development Agency Act, 2008 (No 54 of 2008);
(2)
consist of 11 members of the National Assembly, as follows:
African National Congress 6, Democratic Alliance 2, Economic
Freedom Fighters 1
and other parties 2, and 9 members of the
National Council of Provinces;
(3)
exercise those powers in Joint Rule 32 that may assist
it in carrying out its task; and
(4)
report by 15 March 2016.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, Limpopo,
Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
ABSTAIN: KwaZulu-Natal.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 4 of 376
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
MINISTERS:
Smuggling of goods into prisons
3.
Mr G Michalakis (Free State: DA) asked the Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services:
What plans does his department have in place other than
cellular telephone detection systems to (a) curb and (b)
prevent the smuggling of goods into prisons?
CO33E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services): Chairperson, just maybe to indicate that I am standing in
for the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services who is abroad
in an international meeting. I am standing in for my colleague, the
Deputy Minister of Correctional Services. I am the Deputy Minister
of Justice and Constitutional Development. So, on the three
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 5 of 376
Correctional Services questions, I don‘t necessarily have all the
details, but as far as the question around cellular phone detection
and the plans in place other than cellular telephone detection to
curb and prevent the smuggling of goods into prison, the reply is
that the department has always recognised as the first layer of
security and correctional facilities is diligent personnel who
conduct through researching and supervision of inmates and their
possessions on a frequent basis. The department has taken various
steps ... [Interjections]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Minister. Please
take your seat.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services): Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order. I would like to
know when has the National Council of Provinces or the Chairperson
has been informed that the Deputy Minister is standing in? Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please raise your voice,
mom. Speak to the microphone. They did not hear your question.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 6 of 376
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, I would like to know when was the
Chairperson of the National Council informed that the Deputy
Minister would stand in? And I would also like to know if the Deputy
Minister will be able to handle all the follow up questions for the
department that he is standing in? If not so, we have a problem.
Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Let me refer this to
the hon Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, on the formalities I have
done, I would like to reassure the member that her concerns have
been addressed. The Deputy Minister would not be here if his
Minister doesn‘t have confidence in him that he is equal to the
task. I am also confident that he is equal to the task. The
Chairperson of the Council is also confident; the Deputy Minister is
equal to the task. So, let the member be reassured that everything
will be okay. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Chief Whip.
Hon Minister, you can continue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services): Thank you, Madam Chair.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 7 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Order, hon Minister.
You may take your seat again. It is a follow up.
Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, on a point of order. I would like to concur
with my colleague, hon Labuschagne that the Minister is not from
this portfolio. So, when there are follow up questions, we will not
get the answers. And this is the problem to us. It‘s not on this
Minister‘s portfolio. I am not saying the Minister don‘t have the
ability to answer some of the questions, but because is not on his
portfolio, we can‘t expect him to answer it. So, I would really have
a problem with that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you hon, before you
can say something, hon Chief Whip. Hon Faber, I was going to say to
you that we have been reassured that the Minister is equal to the
task. And remember that they work as a collective. Let‘s not give
the Minister a benefit of the doubt and listen to his responses.
Thank you very much. Hon Minister!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services): Madam Chair. I just want to indicate that it‘s part of
the same cluster. But anyway, on the question of curbing and
preventing the smuggling of goods into prison, what I was reading
was that the department has always recognised as the first layer of
security is a diligent personnel who conduct thorough researching
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 8 of 376
and supervision of inmate and their possessions on a frequent basis.
And the department is taking a number of steps to prevent smuggling
of goods into prison. The one is the launching of the Back to Basics
Security campaign aimed at reasserting the importance of basic
security measures and competency, such as searching of persons and
goods. The campaign strongly focuses on management‘s involvement to
ensure adherence and full compliance to security principles and
procedures. This includes; awareness raising, communication of
decisions to the lowest levels, implementation, monitoring and
evaluation, engagement and motivation of staff and providing
direction.
As part of broader engagement, the department is part of an
interdepartmental process exploring technical counter measures, in
part, response to gangs as a security threat group. This is a
conscious effort to partner with other state law enforcement
agencies in finding suitable solutions on the holistic challenges.
The searching of inmates and belongings at irregular or
extraordinary times to find and remove unauthorised communication
devices that may have entered the correctional facilities.
And then, the second layer of security is the use of technical
equipment and the department has been rolling out integrated
security systems to various correctional centres. These systems
include; security fences, scanners for searching of parcels entering
correctional centres, metal detectors, closed-circuit television,
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 9 of 376
CCTV, monitoring at access control points and also cellphone
detection systems. The roll-out of these systems is currently in
progress of 38 correctional centres countrywide and future roll-out
will be based on availability of funding. The department is also in
the process of installing 14 body scanners at seven correctional
centres to further assist officials. And ... Yes, let me leave it
like that for now. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
Deputy Minister. Before I can allow hon members to raise their
follow up questions, let us take this opportunity and welcome our
Grade 5 and 6 learners who are in the gallery from a Hillcrest
Primary School. [Applause.] Welcome. [Applause.] Thank you very
much.
We are now going to allow the hon members if ever they have
supplementary questions to raise them. And remember, hon members,
time for raising supplementary questions is only two minutes. Can I
see by a show of hands if ever there is a follow up question? I have
seen a hand of the hon Labuschagne. The hon Terblanche will be the
next one. Oh, my apology. My apology, hon Van Lingen. The member who
raised the question must start raising his follow up question,
unless if he does not have it. Hon Michalakis, your chance.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson. Thanks to the hon Deputy
Minister. Deputy Minister, at the end of last year, it was admitted
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 10 of 376
that the smuggling problem in our jails has becomes so bad that it‘s
an embarrassment and should receive immediate attention. I am glad
that this was acknowledged, since I have been asking this question
for the last two years already. Would the department have a
sufficient budget to deal effectively with this issue whilst at the
same time addressing other pressing issues, such as uniforms for
staff and rehabilitation, which is already underbudgeted, which also
needs to be prioritised at a substantial cost? If not, what will the
Minister do to ensure that the department can afford financially to
address this issue? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Michalakis.
Deputy Minister!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of justice and Correctional
Services): Chairperson, as I has stated in the reply, there are
systems that are being rolled out to 38 correctional centres and
that list can be supplied if people want it or if hon want it, and
future roll-out will be based on the availability of funding. So,
funding is obviously a concern and obviously it‘s something that the
Department of Correctional Services would have to look at in terms
of reprioritising. But obviously Parliament is welcome to vote more
money for Correctional Services if they so wish.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 11 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Thanks, hon Deputy
Minister. Hon Labuschagne will be followed by the hon member,
Tereblanche. And the last one will be the hon member, Ximbi. In that
order.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Can the hon Minister confirm whether the theft was
an inside job or not?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Did you get the question?
Will you please repeat, hon Labuschagne. Try to speak into the
microphone. .
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you. Can the hon Minister confirm whether
the theft that took place was an inside job?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
services): Madam Chair, I couldn‘t really hear the question, but as
it was the second time, she was referring to a theft, but I don‘t
know what theft she is talking about and it also sounds like a new
question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon member, Terblanche.
[Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 12 of 376
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order. Can I refer to the question?
The question on the Order Paper reads:
Whether, with reference to
the theft which took place at the Defence Intelligence office.
Sorry!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Labuschagne, please,
let‘s allow the hon Tereblanche to continue.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Still waiting for the microphone. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, you are protected.
Continue.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, and thanks to the hon Deputy
Minister. The Minister made mention of the fact that these measures
were rolled out to 38 facilities. And I just want to know from the
Minister, what is the impact and the percentage have you managed to
reduce the incidences down? Thank you, Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services): Look, this question is related to the next question,
which relate to escapes. And I don‘t have any statistics for ... I
mean, this one was specifically around the smuggling of goods and
the prevention of the smuggling of goods. I don‘t have any
statistics on the impact; it‘s a roll-out in progress. I do with the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 13 of 376
second question have some report on the numbers of escapes, which
was something that was specifically ask for. So, I would suggest
that the hon member put it in as a new question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much. The hon
Terblanche, you are advised to put that question in writing.
[Interjections.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: May I address you, Chairperson. May I address
you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You want to address me?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: May I say something about that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Terblanche. Please
take your seat.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you.
Mr D L XIMBI: House Chair. Thanks to the hon Deputy Minister. Hon
Deputy Minister, can you answer me on what has been the outcome of
the intervention, particularly on the Back to Basics campaign? Can
you answer ... Thank you, Chair.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 14 of 376
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H
Jeffery) (On behalf of the Minister of Justice and Correctional
Services): Chairperson, as I had indicated the Back to Basics
Security campaign has effectively started and part of the process is
greater education of officials to perform their tasks properly and
then also the roll-out of increased surveillance and security
equipment. We don‘t have any statistics. We are actually sorry. The
numbers of ... Sorry I ... And is also in regard to Mr Tereblanche
and I see I have been given some statistics. The number of
cellphones that have been confiscated has increased from 11 900 in
2012-13 to 17 929 in 2014-15. The number of Subscriber Identity
Module, SIM, cards confiscated from 5 764 to 10 000. So, there are
cellphone chargers from 10 in 2012-13 to 40, memory cards from 259
to 488. So, there has been quiet a substantial increase in the
number of goods that have been confisticated. Thank you.
Prison escapes
31.
Mr D L Ximbi (Western Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services:
Whether
his
department
will
take
any
steps
to
address
prisoner escapes; if not, why not, if so, (a) what steps,
(b)
what
additional
security
measures
are
in
place
to
prevent these escapes, (c) what is the provincial breakdown
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 15 of 376
of (i) escapes and (ii) captures and (d) what are the
challenges in addressing this matter?
CO62E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE
FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, a lot of
the answers are similar to the previous question relating to the
Back to Basics campaign so I won‘t repeat that and it also relates
to the provision of increased security equipments. But as far as the
specific questions on the provincial breakdown of escapes, captures
and what are the challenges are, firstly, the Department of
Correctional Services is demarcated into regions and not provinces.
The figures are for the escapes for the period 01 April 2015 to
January 2016. In the Eastern Cape there were four escapes and four
were rearrested; Free State and Northern Cape 26 escapes and 22
rearrested; Gauteng five escapes and two rearrested; KwaZulu-Natal
10 escapes and nine rearrested; Limpopo, Mpumalanga and North West
10 escapes and six rearrested; and the Western Cape there were seven
escapes and six rearrested.
The major challenges experienced by the department leading to
escapes are the nonadherence to security policies and procedures by
some staff members, and outdated and inadequate security
infrastructure and technology. These challenges are aggravated by
factors such as the chronic overcrowding of many correctional
centres with consequential staff shortages and negative impact on
basic infrastructure services. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 16 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Ximbi, do you have a
follow up question?
Mr D L XIMBI: Deputy Minister, I‘m sorry to ask this. This is with
regard to Radovan. Could you share with the House how did the inmate
try to escape and also how was it for? I don‘t know. Take it over to
you, sir.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE
FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon member,
unfortunately, it‘s a new area and I don‘t have the details of that.
It could be supplied to you afterwards. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you for the promise,
hon Deputy Minister. Do you want to make a follow up, hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Yes, Chairperson, if you could recognise me.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, I do recognise you.
Mr W F FABER: Chair, this is just back to what I started with. With
due respect, Minister, I know he had a good gym work out this
morning and he feels very confident about himself, but to be quite
honest he does not have all the information that the Minister of
this specific portfolio has. This really becomes a problem because
the hon member here was asking a question and I really do understand
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 17 of 376
that the Minister don‘t want to lie here because we are not allowed
to lie in this House, but we really need to have the correct
portfolio Minister here. This is just a start of it there‘s going be
a lot of follow up questions which this Minister will not be able to
answer.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, that is not a
follow up question. In the response of the Deputy Minister there is
a promise that he will make sure that he makes a follow up on the
responses that he does not have now at hand. Hon Ximbi, your chance
has lapsed and I won‘t come back to you. I see the hon members
Gaehler and hon Mokoena and hon Julius will be the last one. Is it
not a follow up? Let me recognise him first.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, I think the strength of the hon Deputy
Minister is that he has already said in his opening remark that he
will not have all the answers. I think it is a legitimate concern
that we are going to sit in a session where we will not get the
answers. I think let‘s agree that we will have another session soon
in order to cover us in this session where possibly the Minister
will have appraised himself from certain issues or we can have the
Minister of Correctional Services. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Can I allow the hon the
Deputy Minister to respond to what the hon Mokoena and hon Faber has
just raised?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 18 of 376
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE
FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: There were three
questions to Correctional Services. I‘ve done one. The hon member
from over there, unfortunately I am not aware of her name, initially
complained when I stood up and said that I wouldn‘t be able to
answer the follow up questions. She asked a follow up question
relating to a completely different question. I think number one was
covered.
As far as the follow up to number two, it was a specific issue which
is not covered in this reply. So, I am not sure how I can be
expected to answer that, and I have said I will supply the
information. Can I, with respect hon Chairperson, know from the hon
members what follow up questions do they have on this question - not
new questions, but follow ups on this question?
Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Minister, according to your reply, there
seems to have a high number of escapes in the Free State. What could
be the reason for that? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE
FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: The figure is for the
Free State and the Northern Cape together. I don‘t have the details
unfortunately as to why the Free State is so bad in that period.
Again, we can supply further information if need be.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 19 of 376
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, the issue is that the Deputy Minister is
not really on top of this subject. So, I need to support colleagues
who have raised the issue because we are not going to go anywhere
with questions that Ministers are not answering. They are the
executives and they must answer the questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Do you have a follow up
question, mam?
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, the Minister
appoint experts to identify and investigate all state facilities
including allowing for independent oversight to ensure that longterm measures are in place in this regard. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE
FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I am not entirely sure
of what the hon member is meaning by his question. In terms of the
problems of escapes I have responded as far as the steps being
taken. As indicated it relates to a problem of personnel and steps
that are being taken relate to training. The other relates to
technology and the need to supply that technology to particular
centres and the budget constraints on that. I am not sure why the
hon member feel there should be greater technical advice or
independent oversight. I think his question is a little bit unclear
to me.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 20 of 376
Prosecution of apartheid offenders
61.
Mr L G Mokoena (Free State: EFF) asked the Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services:
What has been done by his department to ensure that all
offenders, including politicians are prosecuted for
apartheid crimes (details furnished)?
CO95E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, the question was sort of somewhat edited by the
Questions Office and I think it‘s useful to this reference to
details furnished. I think it‘s quite important to indicate the way
it read. The hon Mokoena stated that the Truth and Reconciliation
Commission gave over about 355 of apartheid officials and
politicians who could not be granted amnesty to be prosecuted for
the crimes committed against black people. What has the department
done to ensure that all apartheid offenders, including politicians
are prosecuted for apartheid crimes? I think, firstly, just to state
that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC, process was from
both sides. Therefore, in terms of the outstanding cases it was both
people who had been committing crimes in support of the apartheid
order and people who were committing crimes opposing it – just to
clarify that.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 21 of 376
In 1999, the TRC had discussions with the then National Director of
Public Prosecutions regarding developing a strategy dealing with
prosecutions arising from the TRC process. As part of this process
the TRC referred amnesty application lists to the National
Prosecuting Authority, NPA. However, it‘s not correct that the TRC
referred 350 files to the NPA as alluded to by the hon member. The
TRC task team was setup which perused the lists and also liaised
with the directors of Public Prosecutions who had jurisdiction over
certain cases.
In 2003, the then National Director of Public Prosecution, NDPP,
directed that the outstanding cases be dealt with by the Priority
Crime Litigation Unit in his office and all matters which came to
the attention of the NPA were dealt with according to the dynamics
of each case. In certain instances prosecutions were instituted
whereas in other cases matters were closed either due to lack of
evidence, prescription or because the perpetrators had, in fact,
been granted amnesty. At all times investigation of such matters was
the responsibility of the SA Police Service say for a short period
when the directed for special operations dealt with the individual
cases.
I want to assure the hon members of this House that the prosecution
of apartheid crimes, whether committed by a politician or any other
person, is an ongoing process receiving the attention of the NPA.
Given our history, the successful prosecution of these cases is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 22 of 376
difficult and fraught with challenges. The Truth and Reconciliation
Commission Act, for example, specifically made provision for
investigations and prosecutions to be put on hold pending the
amnesty applications and the SA Police Service, SAPS, at the time
decided to suspend investigations in all cases where it was believed
that amnesty applications will be lodged. This was to save resources
being wasted if, in fact, amnesty was granted.
Furthermore, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Act
specifically excluded the amnesty applications and subsequent oral
testimony from being used in criminal proceedings. Experiences shown
at one of the biggest challenges for the prosecution of these cases
is a dedicated investigative unit but exclusively concentrates on
its kind of crimes. Furthermore, the police on the prosecution are
very often dependant on the evidence of witnesses who have been
coconspirators to prove these offenses. These witnesses are
reluctant to be seen as traitors that turn against their erstwhile
comrades. They are reluctant to come forward in cases that are
difficult to prosecute and prove. This is exacerbated by the fact
that prior to April 1994 elections, the apartheid state security
forces deliberately destroyed substantial documentation in order to
conceal the involvement of state structures in human rights abuses.
Currently, the Director for Priority Crimes Investigation of the SA
Police Service is attending to seven matters where decisions whether
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 23 of 376
to prosecute or not still have to be taken - that seven TRC related
matters. Thank you.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Yes, Chair. I think the essence of the question
emanates from the fact that there is certain unevenness with which
cases are being dealt with once that had been dealt with post the
TRC. One particular case is that of Kenny Motsamai who has been in
prison now for 26 years. He will be 27 years this year in prison for
crime committed pre-1994. In dealing with the case, the Minister was
given an opportunity to release Kenny Motsamai given the fact that
he has complied with parole conditions. The Minister has set new
parole conditions for Kenny Motsamai following an SMS that was sent
to the Minister by the family to ask when they are going to release
Kenny Motsamai.
New conditions have been effected on Kenny Motsamai. He is now been
given a condition that he has to have a tracker despite the fact
that he is not a danger to anybody and anymore. He‘s given
conditions that have not been given to the prime committer of crimes
against humanity, Eugene de Kock, who was released without these
conditions. What are the balances that were effecting on these cases
where black and white are concerned? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon
Chairperson, I have to say that I have a problem. The question is
around the prosecution of offenders or TRC related matters. The
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 24 of 376
follow-up question that the hon members asks is then about parole.
It is a completely different issue. In fact, the one is relating to
correctional services in his follow-up, and the first question is
related to justice. Therefore, I would really respectfully request
that hon members ask questions that are linked, that are really
follow-ups from the question that they have posed. This question is
around prosecutions, it is not around paroles.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
Minister. Hon Mokoena is very aware that he is not allowed to raise
a new question. And now that you are not even prepared to go into
that question, now we proceed to the hon member Makue. What is the
point of order, hon Mokoena?
Mr L G MOKOENA: I am afraid that the Minister is dodging the
question because in his reply he talked about the balance between
white and black in dealing with these prosecutions. The follow-up
question is dealing directly with that reply. What is new about
that? If the Minister does not know the answers, he must just say so
and not come up with his things that he‘s saying.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, the advice that I‘m
getting from the Table is that, indeed, it‘s a new question because
the people that you referred to were prosecuted. The hon member
Mokoena, we are now going to proceed. Can I now allow the hon member
Makue? Your time has lapsed, hon member, and you used the whole two
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 25 of 376
minutes in making your follow-up question. What is the point of
order?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Can I get an indication then from the adviser who
gave you advice as to what is new about a follow-up question that is
directly implied in the answer that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Okay, hon Mokoena, that is not a point
of order.
Mr L G MOKOENA: It‘s a point of order because that means I can‘t
have ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is not a point of
order, hon member, please.
Mr L G MOKOENA: ... because then it means we can‘t make follow-up
questions because then somebody can just decides that it‘s a new
question based on their interpretation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): But it‘s according to what
the hon Minister has said. I see your hand, hon member. Maybe we
should allow the hon Minister to repeat himself. It is what he said.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 26 of 376
Mr L G MOKOENA: He did not say anything; he just said that he can‘t
answer the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, he said that it‘s a new
question. You heard him, hon member.
Mr L G MOKOENA: No, he didn‘t answer the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please, take your seat, hon
Mokoena.
Mr L G MOKOENA: He didn‘t answer the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat, hon Mokoena.
Can we allow the hon Minister –respectfully so – hon members I will
come to the hon member Jihad and Mama Dlamini you will be the second
one. Let me allow the hon Minister to respond.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Can I just
get clarity? I mean as far as the hon Mokoena‘s question, it was
around the TRC giving files. He said 350 files of apartheid
officials and politicians - I was pointing out that it was not just
apartheid officials, but it was both sides. That was the question.
The question specifically was that: What has your department done to
ensure that all apartheid offenders including politicians are
prosecuted? The hon member then comes with the question relating to
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 27 of 376
somebody who is being prosecuted and who is serving a sentence. The
question relates to parole. He links it to another issue of another
person Eugene de Kock. Both of whom I think either applied for
amnesty with the TRC and did not get it. It is actually nothing to
do with the TRC. Therefore, I think the hon member may have some
difficulty in understanding the concepts of prosecution and parole,
but definitely it is a new question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokoena, you had your
chance and now I want to proceed. Why do you say no, hon Mokoena?
What is your point of order?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, on a point of order: The Minister himself
said when he open ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, that is not a point of
order.
Mr L G MOKOENA: The Minister himself said that that question is
edited in the nonedited ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Can I address you, hon
Mokoena?
Mr L G MOKOENA: No, no, can I finish up with a point of order ...
[Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 28 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokoena, allow me to
address you.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Can I finish my point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokoena, allow me to
address you.
Mr L G MOKOENA: And there is a member here who is standing here and
I have not finished. I am not finished.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Jihad, please take your
seat. I will give you a chance. Hon Mokoena, please take your seat I
want to address you.
Mr L G MOKOENA: I am responding ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokoena, please take
your seat I want to address you. Do you want to respond? No, you
cannot respond to the questions, hon Mokoena. You can only ...
[Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! You can only rise on a
point of order and not respond to what the Minster ...
[Interjections.] But the way I heard you, hon Mokoena, that is not a
point of order. It is a point of debate. Hon member Mokoena, please
take your seat and allow me to repeat what I said. Hon Mokoena, take
your seat and listen to me. Hon Mokoena, I have made a ruling on
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 29 of 376
what you were raising, so now we continue. Hon member Jihad, it is
your chance. No, no, it is the hon member Makue.
Mr M J MOHAPI: No, you have noted me, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I have made a ruling if ever
you are going to say something in connection with what Mokoena is
saying. We made a ruling on that one and we have passed. Hon Makue!
Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokoena, take your seat,
sir ... [Interjections.] ... for what, hon member? Hon Mokoena is
having a new point of order and let us hear it. We will listen to
... [Interjections.] Hon members, please, allow me ...
[Interjections.]
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members, the Rules of
this House allow everybody to put on a point of order. If he is
saying it is a new point of order ... [Interjections.] ... please
take your seats, hon members. Hon members, take your seats. Let us
listen to the point of order. Take your seats, hon members. It is
for the last time, hon Dlamini. Hon Mokoena!
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 30 of 376
Mr L G MOKOENA: Hon Chair, it is the last time. I need to make this
point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It must be on the point of
order.
Mr L G MOKOENA: It is a point of order. Can I be allowed please to
finish my point of order? Yes, the Minister says ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Must I allow you? Hon
members, please order! Let me listen to you correctly. Are you
saying that we must allow you to finish what, hon Mokoena?
Mr L G MOKOENA: A point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The one that we have ruled
over it?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Ee, it is a new point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): A new one? Okay, raise a new
one. If it is not a new one, hon member, please you must take your
seat.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 31 of 376
Mr L G MOKOENA: It is a new one. It is completely new. It is a brand
new from the box.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I gave you a hearing, hon
member.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, the Minister he himself says in the question
that it refers to cases that have been referred ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is your point of order
because we heard what the Minister has said?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Can you allow me to ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I want you to raise a point
of order.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Yes, but I must give you that part of information
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Give me a point of order,
sir.
Mr L G MOKOENA: He says that cases were referred to the NPA and the
case of Kenny Motsamai is one of those cases. Now, I‘m saying to you
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 32 of 376
that there is an imbalance through which you guys are dealing with
cases referring ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members! Order,
please!
Mr L G MOKOENA: I withdraw ―you guys‖, the department. There is an
imbalance with which the department is dealing with cases where
black or white are concerned and I am asking that question as to how
are you balancing the issues out.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Mokoena. That
is not a point of order. Take your seat, hon Deputy Minister. It is
not a point of order.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Why is it not a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It is not a point of order.
Please, take your seat. We continue. Hon Makue, it is your chance
now. Take your seat, hon member. Now you are out of order, hon
Mokoena. Hon Mokoena, you are out of order. If ever you want to
leave, please do not disturb the House. You must just leave us with
peace. Hon Makue, continue. [Interjections.] No, hon Mokoena! Take
your seat, sir. Hon Mokoena, you are out of order.
An HON MEMBER: He wants an early land.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 33 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, continue, sir. We know
the character of the EFF. Let us continue.
Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, we come from a very difficult history
and we cannot allow a situation where the EFF - just rose yesterday
- wants to distort this history. My question to the Deputy Minister
is to help scores of people out there who are still sitting with the
pain of not knowing what they could do now because we have had the
amnesty processes where people are still feeling that those that
have applied for amnesty have been granted it. And also some of our
people out there do not even know if the perpetrators have been
granted amnesty. Can you help us, Deputy Minister, to say to the
people out there when they are still unsatisfied with prosecutorial
process? What is it that people can do post the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission work? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam
Chair, it is a pity hon Mokoena has left, but I mean just to specify
that because the person he refers to was convicted, there is no way
that that file could have gone to the NPA because the NPA was only
concerned about people who had not been prosecuted yet. Therefore,
the hon member really with respect is misleading the House.
As far as the follow-up question, firstly, the information relating
to who got amnesty and for what is contained in the TRC report is
accessible. Therefore, that should not be a problem.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 34 of 376
Prosecution is quite difficult. Remember that the post TRC there
have been prosecutions that did not succeed. I am referring in
particular to the Malan prosecution and the apartheid doctor - the
SA Defence Force, SADF, doctor also did not succeed. The SA Missing
Persons task team of the NPA which is tasked to try discover the
remains of missing people or the whereabouts of missing people, but
everything is dependent on evidence – on people being able to come
forward. That was the benefit, I suppose, of the TRC process to
encourage people to come forward with the information which
otherwise would not have been known. In any society that has been
through severe conflict like us, obviously there are a lot of wounds
that are difficult to heal without knowing exactly what happened.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. We cannot
afford the situation in which members of the EFF always create drama
when want to leave the House. As you can see, none of them are here.
After realising that he was the only one here, he creates a drama so
that he can have an excuse to leave the House. We cannot afford
that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank yo, very much, hon
Dlamini. We have all noticed that nobody chased him out. He walked
out of this House voluntarily.
Progress made ito National Forum
23 FEBRUARY 2016
32.
PAGE: 35 of 376
Mr D L Ximbi (Western Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services:
What progress has been made regarding the National Forum of
the Legal Practice Act, 2014 (Act 28 of 2014), in ensuring
transformation of the legal profession?
CO63E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, this relates to the progress made by the National Forum
on the Legal Practice Act 28 of 2014 in ensuring transformation of
the legal profession.
I will start with some background information of the Legal Practice
Act. It consists of 10 chapters. Parts one and two of chapter 10
came into operation on 1 February 2015. These parts deal with the
establishment and mandate of the National Forum on the Legal
Profession.
The remainder of the Act is not yet in operation and will come into
operation when the National Forum has completed its mandate because
there were certain areas that the attorneys and advocates
professions couldn‘t resolve at the time of the passing of the Legal
Practice Act. So they were then given a maximum of three further
years to resolve those questions. If they reach an agreement, the
Minister of Justice will make those agreements regulations. If they
do not reach an agreement, the Minister is empowered to make those
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 36 of 376
agreements regulations anyway after consultation with the National
Forum.
But the issues relate to the election procedure for the purposes of
constituting the permanent SA Legal Practice Council. In other
words, the issues relate to how the component parts will be elected;
the establishment of the provincial councils in the areas of
jurisdiction; the composition, powers and functions of the
provincial councils; the manner in which they are to be elected; all
the practical vocational training requirements that candidate
attorneys or pupils must comply with before they can be admitted as
legal practitioners; and the right of appearance of candidate legal
practitioners in court or in other institutions.
Section 97(1) also requires the National Forum to prepare and
publish a code of conduct for legal practitioners, candidate legal
practitioners and juristic persons which operate as legal firms.
They are also required to make rules on the competency based
examination or assessment of candidate legal practitioners, on the
minimum conditions and procedures for the registration and
administration of practical vocational training, on the procedures
and directions pertaining to the assessment of persons undergoing
practical training and issues relating to that, and also on the
procedures to be followed by disciplinary bodies.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 37 of 376
These issues required to be addressed in the recommendations and the
rules are all of a highly transformative nature and, if done
properly, they will go a long way towards spearheading further
transformation once the work of the National Forum has been
finalised and the permanent structures envisaged in the Act are in
place.
The provisions of the Act are also of such a nature so as to ensure
that the permanent structures that have been put in place are
representative and are composed of persons who are committed to
ensure that the transformative measures put in place by the National
Forum will be institutionalised and sustained.
Section 98(4) of the Act requires the National Forum to report to
the Minister on its activities and the Minister must submit such a
report to Parliament. Without going into detail I can inform hon
members that the members of the National Forum are hard at work to
finalise their mandate to which I have referred. The chairperson of
the National Forum has moreover indicated that there has been a
meeting of minds between the various stakeholders in the forum who
are committed to ensuring that their mandate is carried out within
the time frame set in the Act.
The National Forum has provided a report which has been submitted to
Parliament as required by the Act. I invite hon members to obtain a
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 38 of 376
copy of that report if they wish to interrogate the details of the
work done by the National Forum to date. Thank you.
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I want to thank the hon Deputy Minister
for the answer and for the progress that has been made with regard
to the National Forum on the Legal Profession. Thank you very much
for that progress Deputy Minister. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, my Question is not so much
about the National Forum itself but, but is more about
transformation within the legal profession. So, you are more than
welcome to rule me out of order if that is unacceptable to you.
However, I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister whether his
department has consulted with the Minister of Higher Education to
ensure that we have more diverse graduates. In other words, what
effort is government making to motivate especially young black South
Africans to study law? It is not always ... having studied it myself
... I think the Deputy Minister might sometimes agree with me that
it is always not the most attractive of professions or fields of
study. However, what is government doing to make the study of law
more attractive for young black South Africans? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, I do not have all the statistics but I will try to
answer the Question. The statistics that I would have liked is that
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 39 of 376
the majority of graduates from the law faculties of the universities
in South Africa are in fact black and African. So, I don‘t know if
there is any problem of encouraging young black students to study
law. I think the numbers are fairly high. Where the issue becomes a
problem ... I mean, the statistic shows that the majority are
African and mostly women.
The problem though is in terms of who gets the articles. As hon
members may know, before you can practice as an attorney you have to
undergo some kind of practical training, and that requires you to
get articles of clerkship or become what is now called a candidate
attorney. The figures of who gets those positions do not match up to
the racial figures of those people coming out of university.
I think the majority of those getting articles are women, but not a
majority of black graduates. This is also the case with pupillage at
the bar. So, those are the problems.
The problems are not so much at the universities; the problem is
afterwards, and how you can complete your training to get admitted
as an attorney or advocate.
I would have liked to have had the figures if I had known you would
come with a new Question, but I can say that the racial proportions
of people getting articles is not equal to the racial proportion of
the graduates. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 40 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
Deputy Minister. Hon Michalakis, I wish hon Mokoena was here to see
and copy your character when it comes to asking a new Question.
Minors in custody
14.
Ms B A Engelbrecht (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services:
(a) How many minors are currently in custody, (b) how many
are in custody with adult convicts and (c) what plans are
in place to address this matter?
CO44E
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, this is in relation to minors in custody. And the first
part is according to the Department of Correctional Services, a
minor, just to get clarity on who we are talking about, is a child
younger than 18 years. On the 12th of February this year 2016, the
number of children who were incarcerated in prisons unsentenced
children, 96, sentenced children, 178. The second question was
around how many were in custody with adult convicts and the answer
is none. The only issue is 90 infants are with their mothers and
that figure increased to a 100 on the 12th of February 2016.
And then the last part was the plans to address this matter, maybe
just to say that the whole purpose of the Child Justice Act was to
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 41 of 376
keep children, as far as possible, out of the criminal justice
system. So the Act is emphasised on assessing the needs of the child
and diverting the child in the less serious offences and then
ensuring that they didn‘t get incarcerated in prison while awaiting
trial and that preferably that they don‘t go to prison, even if they
are sentenced. That they are sent to a secure care facility but the
numbers have been reducing. So on the 12th of February last year
2015 there were 117 unsentenced children in prison. Currently the
figure as I gave is 96, so that is an 18% decrease. And the number
of sentenced children in February 2015 was 198, on the 12th of
February this year it‘s a 178, that‘s a 10% decrease. So we are
working at trying to keep children out of prison. Thank you.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chairperson. Mr Deputy Minister, thank you
very much and thank you for the very good statistics in terms of 117
being reduced to 96. I think that‘s impressive in terms of the
percentage but could you maybe just elaborate why there are still so
many unsentenced children? Thank you.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, look it relates to the nature of the offence that they
have been accused of. I mean it‘s specified in the Child Justice Act
under section 30 and it is that one of the issues is the detention
necessary in the interest of administration of justice or the safety
and protection of the public or the child or another child in
detention and there is a likelihood that the child, if convicted,
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 42 of 376
could be sentenced to imprisonment. So the Act does specify the
limited conditions that a child can be held in custody awaiting
trial. As far as possible, the child is to be released into the
custody of the parent, or if that is not possible, if they do have
to be locked up, then to be put into a secure care facility. So I
think since it‘s a smallish number, it means that it‘s only those
that have allegedly committed very serious crimes and who may not be
suitable for being held anywhere else
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson. Deputy Minister, it‘s very clear that
there is a clear working relationship between the Department of
Correctional Services together with social services, I just want to
check Deputy Minister whether correctional services have psychiatric
services to examine incarcerated minors if they are being affected
by correctional centres.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The issue
of psychiatric services is more of a medical issue so it‘s social
development. It‘s more with the social workers who would have I
suppose some kind of training but not so much. The social workers
for example, those are the social workers of the Department of
Correctional Services, with mothers and babies, they‘re continuously
assessing the mother‘s family circumstances and the availability of
support systems should the baby‘s circumstances permit the placement
of the baby into alternative care and the Department of Social
Development social workers is conducting screening and background
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 43 of 376
assessments of alternative placements for children as well. Each
case is dealt with on its merits. That is all I can say at this
point.
Mr M CHETTY: Hon Deputy Minister. Are you aware of what steps, if
any, has the Minister taken in conjunction with welfare agencies and
other institutions of public safety and security, to tackle the
issue of young offenders? Thank you.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chair
that is really a new question. I mean the whole approach from
government is the Child Justice Act which came into effect about six
years ago. So it was implemented everywhere. Obviously the training
of the different components is important but the whole, I don‘t know
if you have read that Act hon Chetty, but if you haven‘t I would
suggest you do so and the orders, the regulations and the orders
associated with that Act. Thank you, Chair. I‘m not sure if, I think
it may help the hon Chetty if he reads the Act.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson. The number that the Deputy
Minister referred to, I was just wondering if he can give us clarity
whether that includes or excludes the people that are also in police
custody. That is now awaiting trial, if the Minister can just give
clarity on that, thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 44 of 376
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, the
question was to the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services,
so it relates to people in custody in correctional facilities. If
you want to know how many children are in police custody, I suggest
you ask the hon member next to me.
Prosecution of environmental cases
28.
Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services:
(1)
Whether the National Prosecuting Authority is
prosecuting environmental cases by the Green Hawks; if
not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2)
(a)
how
many
green
cases
have
been
successfully
prosecuted in the 2014-15 financial year, (b) how many
of the cases were rejected and (c)(i) in how many of
these cases was the Government party to and (ii) why?
CO59E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon
Chairperson, this is about the Green Hawks and whether the NPA is
prosecuting cases. The reply is that, I have been informed that the
NPA does not distinguish between cases received from the different
law enforcement agencies such as the Green Hawks. The NPA deals with
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 45 of 376
all cases received from the SA Police Service and considers each
case on the merits and demerits of the particular case instituting
prosecutions whenever there is a reasonable prospect of success.
The second part of the question was on statistics; how many
successful prosecutions for the 2014-15 financial year. Due to the
specific focus on all environmental crimes and not just Green Hawks,
I have been informed that the number of convictions on environmental
crimes amounted to 251 cases for the 2014-15 financial year and the
number of acquittals in that period was 14 cases. So, that is 14 out
of the 265 cases with verdicts and that is a conviction rate of
94,7%. The last part of the question was about more details on how
many of these cases was government party to, and why. We do not have
the information available as to how many was government party to.
So, the second part obviously will fall away with that one. I thank
you Chairperson.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Deputy Minister, based on the figures of the
department and the answers that you have given, one can just draw
the conclusion that the department is not really serious about this
because you need to have this information readily available. I mean
the question was straight forward about the Green Hawks but it took
year for the Department of Justice to consider Abalone poaching as
serious crime. Now we have local government, through negligence of
their core functions, responsible for most of the environmental
crime such as poor solid waste management and raw sewerage in the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 46 of 376
streets. Hon Chair, we have to ask the Minister how serious he and
his department are in ensuring that our human rights of clean and
healthy environment, as protected by law, are legally enforced.
Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, with respect to the hon member, it is a bit of a
rambling rhetoric. The way that the crimes are recorded is
environmental crimes. So, I don‘t know why you want a statistic as
to this environmental crime came from this section and that one came
from that section. I think that the conviction rate is extremely
high. If we want to make crimes more serious, we need to legislate
them to be more serious; legislate higher penalties. That is how,
for example, government or Parliament will indicate the seriousness
of the case. As far as the municipal crimes – look, some
municipalities have set up municipal courts with the Department of
Justice but very much the Department of Justice runs those courts.
However, those courts are mostly dealing with traffic offences.
Obviously, in the case of the municipal matters it is for the
municipality to investigate and press charges. Those matters would
then be taken up by the police. But with respect to most of what you
have said that we are not taking it seriously, there is no evidence
of that. Please look at the issue in more detail. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I do have to come up for my
colleague here who specifically made it clear that it took a long
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 47 of 376
time for Abalone poaching to be recognised as a serious crime
because previously it was a Category B crime and it didn‘t go down
well. The point that he is actually making and where I have a
problem is that the municipal courts do traffic fines or whatever.
But in the case of raw sewerage and poor management of waste water
treatment plants like I have laid charges against Municipal Manager
of Coega Municipality for a sewerage farm unit that is not working
and we have the Department of Water Affairs out to come and take
samples. I wish you could see the reply. There is a clear block
between the Department of Water Affairs and Coega Municipality to
take serious action against one another and that is the issue. We
are living in a water scarce country and we need co-operation from a
department that is prepared to take action where the other party,
department or government is failing.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, the
issue of the seriousness of a crime as the hon member has referred
to Abalone, is really – I mean crimes are categorised, as you would
know, in the Criminal Procedure Act in different schedules. That is
up to Parliament to determine whether something needs to be recategorised or not. It is up to Parliament to indicate the
seriousness of the case and to legislate accordingly. So, you would
know, for example, that this House passed legislation on cable theft
because of that being a problem and that provided for quite serious
penalties. That was Parliament showing that this matter is a serious
crime and needs to be elevated. So, instead of trying to blame
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 48 of 376
others look at what the legislature should do. As far as the
specific detail regarding the water-related matter, I would
appreciate it if the hon member could come with that as a question
if you want the detail of what‘s happening in that case or not
happening as the case may be. What I have been asked is a general
question on the prosecution of environmental cases by specifically
the Green Hawks.
Mr W F FABER: Madam Chair, just on a point of order: The hon
Minister Jeffrey, to be quite honest, was not told by one of our
members that he was rambling or that he did not know his Acts and so
forth even though he could not answer some questions. So, I‘ll
please ask the hon Minister not to say that about rambling rhetoric
and that our members should just read the Act before asking
questions. I believe that is not the right way to go about. We
haven‘t asked the Minister to take us on. We are asking questions
and we want clear answers. That‘s the reason why we are here.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I think,
with respect that, when I get asked a question around what‘s
government doing about children in custody, it is a valid point to
ask whether the hon member has read the Child Justice Act. I think
that‘s a valid question. And with respect, I unfortunately didn‘t –
apologies hon Julius, I didn‘t understand the question that
thoroughly but hon Chair, let me leave it like that. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 49 of 376
Electronic/manual capturing system
52.
Mr L B Gaehler (Eastern Cape: UDM) asked the Minister of
Police:
Whether there is a credible and reliable electronic and
manual capturing system of reported cases at all police
stations; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?
CO83E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, the hon members, ladies and
gentleman. The SA Police Service, SAPS, has an electronic Crime
Administration System, CAS, at all police stations that is used to
register, manage, control and keep record of reported criminal
cases. When CAS is not in operation, all newly reported case dockets
are recorded manually in a backup register commonly known as the
SAPS 441, where the information recorded in the SAPS 441 register is
captured on the CAS or when the system becomes operational again.
The SAPS is currently rolling out the Investigative Case Docket
Management System, ICDMS, as an enhanced system to replace the CAS
system. The ICDMS will also be rolled out in all the SAPS stations
to register, control and manage cases reported to the police. Thank
you very much.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 50 of 376
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson. To the Hon Minister, in many instances
case information is lost in police stations resulting in
investigations not being concluded and cases not prosecuted to
finality. Having this system working properly and the officials
trained to manage it is critical in the administration of cases. I
therefore wish that this could be a priority of the programmes of
the department. Does the department have proper systems in place to
monitor because there are lots of dockets that are getting lost? Are
there proper systems to monitor that these dockets are captured
daily? If you go to police stations hon Minister, lots of dockets
get lost in the system. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, thanks to the hon member for
his suggestion. The fact of the matter is that cases reported at
police stations are captured daily. However, what we have had to
also confront and be confronted with, is the question of cases that
remain unresolved for over a period of time and in that regard,
towards the end of last year we conducted a case docket management
analysis to look at why do we have the kind of blockages that we
seem to be experiencing and so forth. So, it‘s part of the back to
basics approach that we have embarked upon. We then created a unit
that has to make direct interventions particularly in the area of
detective and investigative work so that it can begin to unblock
most of these particular cases. Regarding this, we have to respond
to a public outcry that we have picked up in a number of community
outreach programmes where in people complain that either somebody
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 51 of 376
was murdered five or 10 years ago and yet that case was never
resolved. We have recently reported to Parliament the amount of
progress that we are beginning to register in this regard. So, we
are paying specific and dedicated attention to the issue of how we
are managing cases and how we are investigating those particular
cases and we will be reporting shortly back to Parliament about the
amount of progress we continue to register. Thank you very much.
MR O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, the Minister acknowledged that
there are problems and we appreciate that. Having the systems that
they are utilising at the moment, Minister don‘t you think we must
maybe look at proper training, proper management in the charge
office and maybe just proper command and control? Don‘t you think
that will maybe alleviate the problem in the meantime? Thank you for
what you are doing anyway for now. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, thanks to the hon member‘s
suggestion as well. There is a lot that we certainly do need to do,
for example the question of frontline service delivery, and I think
that‘s the point that we are talking to and it is also another
specific project area that we are looking into because the exact
question is that as a member of the public, when you walk into a
police station, what kind of basic levels of services you should
expect to get behind the counter for example. So, it‘s true. We are
also paying attention in those particular areas. But then there are
also these areas that are quiet specialised, for example one of the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 52 of 376
issues that has been found wanting, if you look at our annual
report, for example for 2014-15, is that, thus far the only division
that has been underperforming in that particular period is the area
of detectives and that‘s where the bulk of investigation work
resides. We therefore need to zoom specifically into that area. I
accept your suggestions that perhaps these are other areas that we
may have to look into. However, the point is, yes we are looking
into some of them but there are also specific areas of
specialisation that we need to effectively zoom into so that we are
then able to render the service as constitutionally mandated.
Mr W F FABER: Chair. Excuse me for that. Hon Chair, very similar to
hon Terblanche‘s question, on the system on capturing crime,
Minister, I would like to know ... I know the system needs people to
be trained on definitely. My question is, when we get on capturing
crime it is in certain brackets, these crimes in which they are
being set and when we get to crime statistics, does this not make a
difference on the type of crime statistics at the end of the day if
its been captured wrongly? I just want to get some information on
that.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No. Necessarily not. When you get into the
issue of crime statistics get into the issue of crime statistics
you‘ll realise, for example that there are specific categories that
we have to follow in populating the kind of information as per the
register of cases in our service centres. I think the gist of this
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 53 of 376
question relating to the electronic system that we use is about
registering, management and control of those particular cases. These
are the three critical sorts of elements of the work that a system
has to deliver. You see, that is what currently takes place and
that‘s what currently obtains. Now the question of categorisation,
for example when it comes to crime statistics, I think its
Ms T WANA: Chairperson, listening to the Minister about the reply,
my follow up question is as follows: What method has he put in place
in police station like Gqaka in eNgcobo where there is no
electricity? Secondly, what is the criterion used by the department
in terms of dividing the tools of trade like vehicles? Is it done by
population or by villages?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister,
I am not sure. It sounds like a new question. Only if you have the
appetite for it.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Indeed, it is a new question but let me also
try and satisfy the new question. I think the specific cases for
instance with regards to eNgcobo and ... did they say Baqa? I think
so. EGqaka, yes, sorry. I think I can do consultations after this
session to follow up on these specific cases about issues of
electricity. But the general point really that I want to make is
that there are challenges when it comes to issues of infrastructure
generally speaking, particularly when it comes to urban-rural divide
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 54 of 376
kind of issues amongst other things. And this then leads me to the
second question that the hon member raised, the resource allocation
issue. We are looking at reviewing our approach when it comes to
what we generally use as the resource allocation guide within the
SAPS, because you‘ll find that at some point you had a police
station which serviced an X number of people but dynamics and
geographical land patterns of settlements begin to change to an
extent that either a population doubles up or triples up and
therefore your service spread and scope of operation becomes much
more wider and that exerts pressure on the amount of resources that
is at our disposal. So, we are also beginning to look at our
resource allocation guide with a view to look at ways and means of
how do we then meet the upcoming challenges and dynamics as and when
the material conditions do change on the ground. Thank you very much
Chair.
Incompetent/unfit employees
2.
Mr G Michalakis (Free State: DA) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether
he
and
the
National
Police
Commissioner
have
committed to get rid of the incompetence and unfitness in
the SA Police Service for the benefit of the country; if
not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO31E
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 55 of 376
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the SA Police Services is
fully committed to continuous improvement of its human resources on
various aspects of policing, particularly officials who are on the
frontline of policing and providing service to the communities of
South Africa. Hence the department has embarked on a transformation
agenda focusing on professionalising the police service and adopted
the Back to basics policing approach as one of the strategies to
deliver SAPS constitutional mandate.
Through internal assessment of the organisation some of the issues
that emerged as affecting service delivery and accountability
include, among others, delay in the filing of critical posts at
lower levels; secondly, the loss of experienced offices with
critical skills such as detectives and operational commanders due to
voluntary resignations, retirements, deaths and other forms of
service terminations.
The department is aware of the challenges of poor performance in
some police station areas across the country and have thus adopted
some measures to ensure that police officials are competent enough
to deliver acceptable standards of service to the communities. These
measures entail, among other initiatives, having appointed an
experience and highly trained senior officer to head our training
division in order to ensure that we produce officials who are fully
competent to deliver our mandate within the NDP Vision 2030
framework. All trained members, irrespective of the type of work
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 56 of 376
they perform, are subjected to firearm competence assessment twice a
year to ensure their operational readiness. Those who do not meet
the set standard are disarmed of their firearms and provided further
training until they pass the assessment.
We have established the dedicated capacity called management
interventions to address all factors hampering service delivery at
station level including competence of members; operational readiness
of the stations in terms of other resources and ability of the
station to function properly; working closely with various academic
institutions to develop commanders on management skills; filling of
commanders and senior management service, SMS, posts within 30 days
from the date the post became vacant to ensure sustained
accountability; developing a turnaround strategy to enhance our
employee health and wellness to minimise sickness and absence rate;
strengthened our recruitment processes to ensure that quality
recruits join the organisation and we continuously explore various
technological solutions to support policing in order to minimise
human factors; improving our data integrity and prevent potential
corrupt activities such as lost case dockets; lastly, we have
undertaken a re-enlistment drive for former SAPS members with
necessary skills and clear criminal record to rejoin the department.
The project is almost complete.
The members who are unfit to be part of SAPS due to criminal
activities or any other form of corruption are continuously being
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 57 of 376
dealt with decisively by the department. The acting national
commissioner has recently embarked on a roadshow over the last
months where he personally addressed commanders at all levels on the
issues of corruption, misconduct and the significance of delivering
a professional service to the community at all times. Thank you very
much.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson to the hon Minister, it can be
applauded that there are efforts to rid the police service from
unfit and incompetent officers at the bottom level. However, one
should not forget to also look in this regard to the top levels. If
you are as committed as you say to ridding the SAPS from unfit
members, why then was Lit Gen Mondli Zuma appointed as the
provincial commissioner in Mpumalanga after he was first removed
from the same position in 2013 in Gauteng, hours after being first
appointed; previously being charged with drunk driving, attempting
to escape under custody defeating the ends of justice and loosing
his firearm under suspicious circumstances, to name just a few.
Surely, hon Minister, that is not ridding the SAPS of discredited
leaders. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I do think that if the hon
member, so wishes, he could probably and may want to elect to
consider this as an option: Posing a new question on the appointment
of Lt Gen Zuma. But nevertheless, now that he has done so ... Lt Gen
Zuma is a competent manager and he has quite an extensive experience
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 58 of 376
in the SA Police Services. That competency has been demonstrated in
various ways within the SA Police Services. It would also be known
that, Lt Gen Zuma who is now, as we speak, the provincial
commissioner in Mpumalanga, before his appointment there were
criminal charges against him and he never faced any; secondly, of
course, even departmentally there were no particular issues. And
even if there were issues, those particular issues were dealt with
and basically clarified and so on.
Now as to why the issue keeps on arising, which is a straightforward
technical matter, is a bubbling matter really. It just doesn‘t make
sense. But nevertheless, the individual in question, there is no
particular issue about him in so far as the legal issues are
concerned in this country, but also even internally within the
department, he is facing absolutely no particular charges and so
forth.
I would have understood if, for that matter, the issue at hand was
that we appointed either when he was still facing criminal charges
or so. I think that would be a different matter all together or, for
that matter, if there were departmental charges against him we would
have moved the date to appoint him and so on. Perhaps that question
would be much more sort of relevant from the side of the hon member
Michalakis
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 59 of 376
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson to the hon Minister, in your response
you also referred to the issues of wellness programmes. I want to
direct my follow-up question to that area because the former
National Police Commissioner once complained that physical fitness
affects the performance and said that he was going to get rid of it
in the force. I want to know if you consider this framework of
fitness to also be inclusive of the issue of physical fitness. And
if so, what programmes are there in the police stations to ensure
that physically your officers are fit to be up to the task? Also if
there are programmes, are they being adhered to in all the police
stations in the county? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, with regards to that question, of
course, there has been concerned raised around the issues of the
extent of fitness on the side of our members, specifically the issue
of physical fitness. It is a matter that is also under consideration
from our side as part of the Back to basics approach, precisely
because when we refer to the issue fitness it has got to be fitness
all round; fitness, yes, to do the job, but all officials to be
culpable of executing the duties at hand. We are confident that,
indeed, as and when we advance and intensify our efforts to improve
the manner in which we execute our work, this matter will also be
firmly taken forward.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, to the hon Minister, the report that was
submitted to us as the portfolio committee during the summit last
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 60 of 376
week is that the policemen and policewomen and the personnel in
general in your department, 80% of them are HIV positive. I want to
find out from you as to what is the plan? Because in your answer you
said you are dealing with the matter decisively. But decisively to
me is like nothing. What is it that you are doing to make sure that
those men and women in blue and the entire personnel are taken care
of? With regard to those that are HIV positive, what is it that is
tangible you doing as the department to make sure that their morale
is high and they perform their duties accordingly? What is it that
you are doing as the department? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, I would want to submit that with
regard to that issue ... Because I heard about that issue. When I
followed it up I was then told that that matter is being corrected.
It can‘t be a correct reflection that we have about 80% or 88% of
our workforce being HIV positive and so on. I would then ask that I
be given an opportunity to verify that particular issue in totality
and then report accordingly. Because that as a basis has got to be
firmly clarified so that any other issue that is then linked to that
is also properly attended to and so it goes. The fact though remains
that we have a functional employee health and wellness programme
within the SA Police Services regardless of the extent or rate of
HIV infection and so forth. Generally speaking we have quite a
functional unit that deals with the question of health and wellness
within the SA Police Services. But I really do ask, hon Chair, that
I be given an opportunity to work on the factual details around the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 61 of 376
question of what is purported to have been said or submitted at the
summit as you referred to. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokwele,
there is a commitment to submit the correct figure. And I suppose,
hon Minister, that you would also outline the specific of what we
are doing with the prevalence and the rate of infection. Thank you,
sir.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson to the hon Minister, I think you
will agree with me that any credible selection process must include
background checks like, for instance, criminal record,
qualifications, and stuff like that. But then most importantly the
vetting process. I am just wondering if you can inform us whether
you do the vetting, specifically - not leaving out the others - and
if so, up to what level? Because it happened in the past, obviously
I am not going to mention examples at the moment. But apparently
people who do not comply with the vetting did slip through the
cracks, so to speak, and got appointed. I am not really up to ...
Thank you, sir.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, I could, probably after this session
as well, provide statistical data and information on the question
about the extent of vetting, for example. I require an opportunity
to be able to do so, precisely because right now as we speak I can‘t
even begin to reflect on the extent and percentage thereof in so far
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 62 of 376
as how many of our people have been vetted and from which level to
what level. Safe to say that, of course, vetting is being conducted.
But the question of efficiency thereof, I think is a different
subject matter altogether. Again I would, through the Chair, ask
that I provide that information as well, regarding the question of
vetting specifically.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Minister, I
had allowed that supplementary question on vetting because I thought
it would also have implications on how many people are sleeping in
and therefore contributing [Inaudible] But if the hon Terblanche is
happy, let‘s get the facts from the Minister.
Safety/security requirements: achievement of NDP Vision 2030
22.
Mr M J Mohapi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
In light of the challenge of rising urbanisation, the need
to improve urban governance and over-stretched personnel,
what are the current safety and security requirements for
the achievement of
2030,
Agenda
up
to
and
2063
the
National
as
part
measures
for
of
Sustainable Development Goals?
the
Development
the
post-2015
Plan Vision
Development
implementation
of
the
CO52E
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 63 of 376
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, ladies and
gentlemen, the SA Police Service, SAPS, is currently reconfiguring
its control and command structure as a management tool to ensure
improved services at local level.
Cluster management structures are being optimised so as to enable
management to determine policing demands at each cluster, metro,
city, urban and rural area.
Formulae and instruments to determine resource requirements are in
place, already tested and adjustable according to local dynamics and
variables. Annually, all relevant demographic data and information
are collected and analysed for adjustment in the resource
allocation. Population trends and growth including indicators for
economic trends for each region are also collected and analysed and
used in the formulae.
We have concluded the process on accessibility of service delivery
points for the SAPS nationally, the outcome of which was that all
SAPS delivery points have been plotted on a geographic information
system, GIS. All courts, magisterial districts, and municipal
districts have been plotted on the same GIS system for
interdepartmental access and future integration of agenda.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 64 of 376
We now have a scenario plan on our GIS in terms of police service
access of where the demands are or will be given socioeconomic
developments and population trends like migration and urbanisation.
In the main, Statistics SA sources are being used for data
collection in order to determine current resource requirements and
also to do annual projections. Thank you.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for
that response. I would, however, still like to pursue it.
Hon Minister, in the challenges of the repeat call for farm areas,
we still see the possibility of uneven resource allocation. I cite
as an example the newly established areas where you don‘t even see
mobile police stations, let alone police stations. I am saying any
person who is out there might see it as uneven resource allocation.
The visibility of the police in the so-called townships versus the
suburbs is also a challenge in most instances.
What is it that you can commit to in this House to guarantee those
poor people out there that there are strict measures to ensure that
we curb this uneven or possibly uneven resource allocation?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, our commitment is at the level of
reviewing the resource allocation guide, precisely because we are
also extremely concerned about these discrepancies, particularly
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 65 of 376
between urban and rural areas, as well as between rich and poor. It
is quite concerning.
For instance, you do come across the kind of examples that the hon
member is talking about. There is an area that has a police station
that was built in the 1800s, and it still looks like it did in the
1800s. Yet, the population figure at the time was very low. The
population in that area has grown quite exponentially over the
decades. So, we therefore need to dynamise our resource allocation
guide in order to be able to follow these particular trends and
continue to analyse them on an ongoing basis, so that we are able
to, somewhat ... you know, even if it means minimally ... but be
able to respond to the challenges of the time, given population
growth and other dynamics which, of course, impacts on the issue of
policing.
So, our commitment is that we ... The starting point is to review
the resource allocation guide. Thank you.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, we are working with
quite a few plans and things in this country. One of the guiding
ones, obviously the most important one, is the National Development
Plan, NDP. Then, obviously we take into account population growth,
urbanisation and stuff like that.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 66 of 376
I was just wondering ... Your planning for the future ... Is that
aligned with the stuff that I mentioned like, for instance, the NDP
and its impact? If so, have you quantified the impact of this
development? Obviously, the roll-out will have to support whatever
the growth is going to be. Can you just respond to that? Thank you,
Sir.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, in both the policy and
strategic approaches that we have adopted in the SAPS, at the centre
of it is the question of the NDP. So, whatever we are talking to ...
for example, one of the strategic outcomes of government is the
question of ourselves as the SAPS having to make a contribution
towards our people feeling safe and being safe. Now that is one of
the strategic goals of the NDP. So, at all material times, we are
then guided by that issue.
But also, at a policy reform level, there are issues such
professionalisation, demilitarisation, and other issues that we are
beginning to focus on so that, indeed, as we move towards 2030, we
begin to realise and unfold the actual vision as enunciated by the
NDP itself.
So, the fact of the matter is that, when it comes to strategic
planning issues, policy forecasting and everything else and so on,
we are doing that, guided by the NDP itself. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 67 of 376
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, in my two minutes, I would firstly
just like to squeeze in that I would like to thank the Minister.
Last year I asked a question about the Toekomsrus police station. It
is up and running and open 24/7. Thank you, Minister, for that.
Although the Kocksoord that we also sent ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected, hon Julius.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you. We sent a petition ... the Kocksoord one
in Randfontein is still closed. The building stands there dormant.
Minister, can you please check on that; it is being vandalised now.
But, back to the business of the day. Can the Minister please
elaborate? Where is this rising urbanisation taking place? What are
the areas? Because if we have a plan, we need to know where it is,
and how it affects the prevention of crime in those areas. What
plans do you have? Where is this urbanisation taking place? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, if we are to provide ...
Oh, by the way, let me also just accept the words of gratitude from
the hon Julius. Thank you very much for that.
Basically, if I were to satisfy this question ... This question
requires a comprehensive research approach, because, wherever you go
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 68 of 376
in South Africa ... for instance ... I will give you an example. You
know there is a place in the Eastern Cape called Mount Frere. I used
to work around there and passed by there a few years ago. It was
just one small place at one point. But if you go and you visit the
area today ... I am just making an example ... you will see that,
firstly, the population has grown quite exponentially. Secondly, you
will also see that the pattern of settlement has itself expanded
quite widely.
So clearly, if you are then deploying your policing resources in an
area such as that, your nature of deployment and allocation of
resources must also follow this particular trend and so forth.
It is the same thing, when I take you to the North West, you will
also come across a similar sort of situation.
It may not be urbanisation in the sense of new cities being built or
created, but it could also be that ten or 20 years ago, you walked
into an area and it was extremely and utterly rural. But 20 years
later, it resembles something that looks like an urban settlement or
so, precisely because of development and other basic infrastructural
development issues that have been injected into the area. Therefore,
there is a sort of exponential population growth as well, in one
form or the other and so forth.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 69 of 376
So, this question ... in the long run, yes, it must be satisfied
because, as part of reviewing, for example, the resource allocation
guide, we must also begin to look into these particular areas and be
deliberately sort of biased for instance to try and minimise the
urban/rural divide as it imposes itself on us and the available
resources. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, the Minister spoke about the fact
that he is committed to reviewing the allocation guide. My concern,
in terms of urbanisation and everything that has been said to date,
is the fact that the department is still linked to the census
figures that come out every five years. That is not good enough,
because places like Jeffries Bay, for instance, have grown so fast
that the figures are totally out. I am sure that Johannesburg would
say the same. I am sure that the City of Cape Town would say the
same.
Those places where the population growth is happening faster than
the census figures of four or five years ago ... is there not a way
in which the Minister can advise us what other plans he has in place
to really understand urbanisation and forward planning to
accommodate that. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, I am not too sure whether I
understood the question but, nevertheless, it is a matter of
discussion and debate, really. I think the hon member‘s starting
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 70 of 376
point is the question of Statistics SA figures not being adequate
and everything else about it and so forth. The fact of the matter is
that there are no simple, sort of, straightforward answers to
questions of this nature, precisely because they are a complex,
scientific kind of matter which deserves to be unpacked on its own
and, for itself, given the specific sort of conditions in a
particular locality, for example and so it goes.
However, I think all of us should take either comfort or ourselves
being supported in our approach that says, look we have a number of
policing challenges on the ground in different sorts of areas that
we are responsible for in this country. Therefore we need to begin
to respond to those particular challenges. The manner of
intervention and response to the question of the challenges around
the question of adequacy of policing in our respective areas is the
question of the resource allocation guide, and looking at how it has
got to be dynamised, for example, in such a manner that
continuously, it has got to respond to the given challenges. Thank
you.
Nkandla security upgrades
53.
Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether, in light of the recent developments regarding the
President‘s
home
security
upgrades
in
Nkandla,
the
(a)
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 71 of 376
kraal, (b) chicken run, (c) tuck-shop and (d) swimming pool
are still regarded as security features; if not, what is
the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant
details?
CO84E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, it is indeed a very interesting
question. If reference to the recent developments is in regard to
the Constitutional Court hearing of 9 February 2016, then it should
be noted that the matter is sub judice, as judgement is still
awaited.
However, it should be noted that the President of the Republic has
made a commitment to pay a reasonable portion of the costs of
Nkandla security upgrades, in line with the Public Protector‘s
report.
The President‘s commitment to pay does not render those listed items
as nonsecurity items at all. The issue of whether that items are
security or not security-related was not debated or conversed in
court and no finding has been sought from or conversed by the
Constitutional Court.
As the Minister responsible and having been tasked by Parliament to
investigate the matter and make a determination, I found, with the
assistance of security experts, that the items that have been
referred to are security-related and I stand by that finding. As I
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 72 of 376
understand the submissions in court, my report has not been
subjected to scrutiny because of it being factually incorrect, but
its legality was tested against the lawfulness of the National
Assembly‘s instruction. Thank you very much.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, thank you hon Minister, you are quite
right; it is a very interesting question and a very interesting
response, indeed. The issue of payment is on the basis of
nonsecurity features in the report of the Public Protector. The
President‘s indication, sort of, is also on the basis of nonsecurity
features. When you look at the whole issue, the nonsecurity features
that we are all talking about will refer to the kraal, the chicken
run, the swimming pool, which featured very highly in your drama,
your video, and the tuck-shop.
One would have to ask the question: Are we living in two worlds? Why
are these items considered as nonsecurity items by the Presidency
but as security features by the Police personnel? That would be very
interesting to know. Why does the Minister still maintain that these
are security features? Why are they nonsecurity features to the
Presidency and security features to SAPS? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Firstly, I don‘t think we should necessarily
confuse the two things. I am not here to speak on behalf of the
President or Presidency, in this regard. I am talking on the basis
of what I was mandated to do by Parliament and that is what I did.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 73 of 376
I may not have been following all the court proceedings but I don‘t
recall, for instance, a submission anywhere, whether in the court
itself or publically, that says, I determine that these are
nonsecurity features, therefore I am paying. I don‘t think that is
what was said or came across.
I think we should also learn to draw the line between matters of
legal strategy of whatever nature and the research that I have had
to conduct, for example. With regard to the compilation of the
report by the Minister of Police, you could not do it in any other
way except the research approach to it.
By the way, in my report there is nothing about a tuck-shop. I said
nothing about a tuck-shop. There were four critical issues that were
raised in the Public Protector‘s report as nonsecurity features: a
kraal, a swimming pool, a chicken run, the amphitheatre.
[Interjections.] Yes, whether you call it a fire pool or whatever.
Fire pool, swimming pool, and so forth. Those were the four critical
issues that were raised.
Therefore, what the Minister of Police had to do was to establish
what the actual origination of these particular items is. Where do
they come from and that is where research had to come in. Even if
you had to conduct a literature review on the issue, it would also
become important to begin to interview experts on these various
issues that included engineers, security experts and people who
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 74 of 376
really had to conduct the whole security assessment around the
residence of the President.
In this country today, as we speak, we don‘t have any other report
that has been worked on to basically refute the claims that are made
in the body of the report of the Minister of Police, as per the
instruction of Parliament. What people have opted to do is to deal
with procedural issues and stay away from substantive issues. If you
have to delve into the substantive issues, you must then interrogate
the actual origins of these particular issues and you must also
conduct your own research, including a literature review. You must
also interview and question people about what the actual issues and
the designs were concerning that issue.
Hon Khawula, my view and my humble sort of advice would be to say
that it will help if you look at the report as per the resolution of
Parliament, away from the issues of legal strategy and matters that
were argued in court, for instance, because those two things do not
actually meet.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, Minister, I understand that the recent
court case is still sub judice, but the question will not interfere
with evidence before the court. In light of that recent court case I
would like to know whether the President of South Africa has since
or before the offer of settlement, formally or informally, consulted
the Minister of Police, the Ministry, regarding the repayment of the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 75 of 376
respective security features, because it reflects on ...
[Interjections.] Madam Chair, can you protect me against the room
divider.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member,
you are protected. Please, finish.
Mr J W W JULIUS: ... it reflects on the integrity of the Ministry,
the department and government as a whole, because you said that, and
now the President changed it but did not consult you. I want to know
whether he consulted you prior to the u-turn or after the u-turn.
Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Julius,
you are sneaking in a question. Minster, are you ...
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No. No way. I had just said that it would
help ... In fact, it was in reference to hon Khawula. Hon Khawula is
a representative amongst many here and I think he represents quite a
majority of the members in the Chamber here. [Laughter.] I just said
to him and I think that should also, by extension, apply to hon
Julius.
Separate the report as sanctioned, as per the resolution of the
National Assembly. Look at it as just a report that deals with the
issues therein, away from matters of legal strategy and issues that
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 76 of 376
have been debated somewhere else. I had said right from the
beginning that I don‘t want to talk about the issue that is still a
subject of the Constitutional Court per se. There is no reason why I
should have been consulted around legal issues. My work was my work
and it is on the basis of what I was asked to do, as per the
resolution of the National Assembly. That is what I did.
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order: Hon Minister, the
many that I represent, does it include the members of the ANC?
Ms M P MOKGOSI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo yo o tlotlegang wa Ntlo
eno, Mme Modise. [Thank you hon Chairperson of this House, Ms
Modise.]
Hon Minister, my question to you would be: Do you still consider
yourself as a legitimate Minister after the new developments on the
Nkandla matter?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
that is not a supplementary question that flows from the response
given by the Minister.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Minister has
just said to us that we must learn to separate the report that he
has presented and the matter at the court. I think what hon Mokgosi
is saying is clearly a direct question because the Minister himself
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 77 of 376
cannot elaborate on the matters that concern the issue of Nkandla
properly. He must tell us whether he is still a Minister, because it
is like he is trying to defend the ―undefendable‖.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member,
that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] I ruled. Hon Faber.
Hon Nthebe, I called you to order!
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would like to pose my question in
Afrikaans because I only defend myself in English. I want the
Minister to hear it. I hope the translator gets it right.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Minister,
please, put on your .... Afrikaans is one of the languages.
Gaan voort, agb Meneer.
Mnr W F FABER: Voorsitter, Minister na hierdie hofsaak oor Nkandla
het ons nou agtergekom dat die Public Protector [Openbare Beskermer]
se report [verslag] nou wel aanvaar word. U het verder in hierdie
ondersoek gaan kyk na Nkandla en u het gesê daar moet verdere
sekuriteitsmaatreëls ingestel word wat heelwat meer gaan kos. Nou
wil ek weet, nou dat ons nou verstaan dat die fire pool [brandpoel]
nou eintlik ‘n swimming pool [swembad] is en na u obserwasies wat u
nou gemaak het, gaan u nou hierdie sekuriteitsbehoeftes hersien?
Gaan u dit weer in ag neem om te kyk of dit nou nie ook dalk weer
soos ‘n fire pool [brandpoel] na ‘n swimming pool [swembad] verander
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 78 of 376
het nie en of daar nou ander goedjies ook verander het? As ons nou
kyk na die sekuriteitsbehoeftes, gaan u dit heroorweeg en die kostes
van die belastingbetaler af vat? (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
[Proceed, hon Sir.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, Minister after this court case concerning
Nkandla we have now realized that the report of the Public Protector
is now accepted. You went further in this investigation to look at
Nkandla and you said that additional security measures needed to
instituted there which would cost considerably more. Now I want to
know, now that we understand that the fire pool is actually a
swimming pool, and after the observations that you have made, are
you going to review these security features? Are you going to take
them into account again in order to see whether maybe a fire pool
has not again been changed into a swimming pool and whether other
little things have not also changed? If we take a look now at the
security features, will you reconsider them and take the costs away
from the taxpayer?]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Minister, did
you get the question?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 79 of 376
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I think I heard a part of it. I was battling
to find the channel. I think your last part is about whether I will
review the security features.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I am going to try my best of English. The
Minister went to Nkandla and identified new security features. Will
the Minister re-evaluate after he made his observations that the
fire pool is a swimming pool. I need to understand the other
observations. There are big cost implications for what still needs
to be implemented at Nkandla. Is the Minister going to, after this,
re-evaluate his stance on this? Will he then go to Nkandla to see if
there is no other features that are also maybe not fire pools and
things like that? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Let me start with the last one. The fact of
the matter is that I was asked through a resolution by the National
Assembly to do this work. It was very pointed: Go and establish
whether or not the fire pool, swimming pool, amphitheatre, kraal,
chicken run, no sorry, the fourth one is the visitor‘s centre are
security-related features. I don‘t know whether the hon members at
least took some time to read and study the report because it went
into detail.
The starting point is that there was a security assessment and the
agencies that are responsible for security assessment for VIPs such
as the President, Deputy President and other political office
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 80 of 376
bearers are the South African Police Service and the State Security
Agency. They work together on these particular issues.
So, we had to trace the matter all the way back. When did the issue,
for instance, of a fire pool or swimming pool arise? It did not
arise in 2014. It arose way back in 2009. Who said that and for what
reason? So, we had to interrogate all those particular issues. Who
spoke about the question of a visitor centre and for what reason and
when? It was not 2014 and 2015 that it was spoken about. It was way
back in 2009, as part of the initial security assessment kind of
issues.
So, those things are established. They are there. It is a matter of
public record. The question that the hon member is raising is
whether or not, in the light of the report as worked on and produced
by the Minister of Police and in the light of the recent
developments, do I still stand by the report. I firmly do so. I
firmly stand by the report, until there is a particular human soul
who will stand here before me and refute all the research work and
the content issues that we had to deal with in that report. It is
only on the basis of such. However, for now, I stand by that report
and the work that I had to do, unless somebody produces something
else to the contrary that in 2008 and 2009, these issues were never
dealt with, there was never a security assessment report that
generated these issues and declared these issues as security-related
features. Thank you. [Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 81 of 376
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
am quite literate. [Interjections.] I counted four members. If you
are covered, it will go to you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Minister, it is clear that the ANC itself is
divided on this matter of Nkandla. Why are you still considering
those things like the chicken run, the fire pool and whatever as
security features, according to what you have highlighted now? I
would ask you a question: Are you protecting an individual by the
name of Jacob Zuma or are you protecting the country of South
Africa? Are you working for the people of South Africa or are you
working for the individual by the name of Jacob Zuma? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Before I
recognise you, hon Dlamini, Jacob Zuma is still President of the
Republic of South Africa. That respect.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, I think I have explained how this
process unfolded. It is a ... By the way, I can‘t also blame the hon
member for what she is alleging. Many people have alleged this
thing. Many people have said all sorts of things about ...
Unfortunately, I am not that type of an individual. I objectively,
at all material times, try to deal with matters before me from an
objective angle. That is all it takes. That is all I had to do in
relation to this matter.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 82 of 376
When I say that I stand by it, it is not because I am dispensing any
favour to any human individual. It is a matter of directly
responding to the question of a principle. The principle is how
these matters came about. What I needed to do was to do work in
relation to satisfying fundamentally that question. How is it that
you had these four identified issues as classified security issues
and credited, at a later point, as nonsecurity issues?
So, when I say that I stand by that report, it is because I do. The
interesting thing for me is that there is nothing invented about
that report and some of the reports that were also part of the
original security assessment. It is all the issues that have always
been there. What I had to do was to delve into them in terms of
establishing why these issues existed and why they were classified
in a particular way. And that is all that I had to do. I am quite
happy with it. Thank you very much.
Creation of special task team
8.
Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of
Police:
What criteria is used for the creation of a special task
team in the SA Police Service?
CO38E
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 83 of 376
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson and hon members, the
establishment of a special task team is based on project management
principles to investigate an identified crime threat. The
investigation of a crime threat will be in a predetermined
geographical area for a period planned to address the identified
threat. Members are placed within the special task team with
specific skills and competencies for the duration of the project.
Once the crime threat has successfully been attended to, the special
task team is dissolved. A special task team is not a permanent
structure. Members of the special task team, therefore, return to
their units and or offices where they are originally placed. Thank
you very much, hon Chair.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Minister. Seeing that your
answer is based on project management, geographical area, crime
statistics and the threat, I would like to know in light of what has
been published in the SA Police Service‘s Directorate for Priority
Crime Investigation, the Hawks‘ media statement on the SA Police
Service‘s, SAPS, website, on 02 February 2016, it was stated, and I
quote:
The concerted efforts by the Hawks led multidisciplinary task team
involving the detectives, crime intelligence and the tactical
response team in the Eastern Cape, has led to the swift arrest of
a 29-year-old suspect who shot randomly, killing four people and
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 84 of 376
critically injuring one in what was believed to be gang-related
violence in the northern area of Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape on
Sunday.
Hon Minister, as you explain the criteria I would like to know how
can you explain to the communities in the Western Cape why you have
not agreed to set up a task team to deal with gang-related violence
and deaths in our communities on various occasions as we also
qualify to this criteria but never had a task team whereas every
time in all the speeches in the NA and wherever the Western Cape has
been singled out as the province with the highest gang-related
violence. Please, explain to the community. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, I sincerely do believe that
essentially this is a new question which seeks details around the
issue of the dynamics in so far as the gang infested areas in the
Eastern Cape.
What this question that had been posed by you, hon member, sought to
do was to establish the procedure of establishing a task team, for
example, and so it goes. If you pose this question to me, for
example, yes, I can respond to it, but I will need time to respond
because I would need to know, for example, if is it true that we
never set up a task team to deal with the issue of gangsterism in
the Western Cape, and is it true, for example, that we never send
any specialised units to deal with the question of gang warfares in
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 85 of 376
the Western Cape. I would require that. I am just offering that in
case you do want to pose that question. Please, do pose it and I
will respond to it, but not here and now.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Minister, with all due respect thank you for
the answer which was not the answer. I did pose the question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I thought you
were going to address it. You did pose a question and ...
[Interjections.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, the Minister says I must please pose another
question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I would like the Minister to answer the question
which I posed.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Labuschagne, I gave you the opportunity because I thought you did
pose the question and it was responded to. When you came in with
your follow up it started off with a task team in the Eastern Cape
and then brought it to the Western Cape. So, not being in the police
environment I could not make the connection. That is why I left the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 86 of 376
matter to the Minister to decide whether it was a new question or
not.
The Minister says that it would then at the end of your question you
hone in on to the need to get a proper response as to why there has
never been a special task team to deal with issues of gangsterism.
What I heard the Minister saying is:
I would need to find out whether indeed there was never.
What I hear you say, Minister, is you do not want to mislead the
House and say, yes, it was never or yes, it was established, but you
rather go and give a comprehensive response.
Perhaps what you can help us with is whether we should have a time
frame or whether you would respond to that in writing to the hon
member so that the question is covered comprehensively. Is that the
undertaking?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, Madam Chairperson, it is indeed an
undertaking and I will respond in writing. I can effectively do so
within a week.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister,
hon Labuschagne has the right to do any follow up pending on the
response you get in that question.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 87 of 376
Progress on SAPS demilitarisation
49.
Mr D L Ximbi (Western Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(a)
What
progress
demilitarisation
of
has
the
SA
been
made
regarding
the
Police Service and (b) what
challenges have been experienced in this regard?
CO80E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson and hon members, various
factors have been embarked on regarding the demilitarisation of the
SA Police Service, the SAPS, and those factors are as follows:
In 2014, the SAPS conducted a research colloquium in which
demilitarisation was highlighted as a pressing issue as raised in
the National Development Plan 2030. The report of the research
colloquium is available.
During 2015, our human resource development division initiated a
research project, approved by the acting National Commissioner of
the SAPS, to be conducted, relating to demilitarisation in the SAPS
with the intent to clarify the concern. The research project is
planned in collaboration with tertiary institutions and the research
proposal is also available if requested by hon members.
The challenge facing demilitarisation in the SAPS is that there
isn‘t a clear understanding of the concept and therefore further
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 88 of 376
conducting of research in this regard is needed within the
organisation.
There is also not a clear perception from the public perspective, in
terms of demilitarisation, that considers demilitarisation as the
removing of ranks and uniform only, whereas an academic perception
stems further to include cultural change, attitudinal change,
material change and organisational change. Thank you very much,
Madam Chair.
Mr D L XIMBI: Ndiyabulela Mphathiswa kakhulu ngohlobo oyibeke ngalo
kodwa bendifuna ukuqonda nje Mphathiswa ukuba ... [Thank you hon
Minister with the way you put it but I would like to know whether
...]
... this demilitarisation ...
... ayinokwenza mhlawumbi ukuba amapolisa angabinamandla
ekuqubisaneni naba nqevu, ezindlavini njengoko sibona ukuba kukho
imigulukudu ezimisele ukugebenga amapolisa. Ingaba ayinakubanobuzaza
kusini na into yokuphumpa imbonakalo yobukhosi yamapolisa?
(demilitarisation) (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... might not make police weak when they deal with the
perpetrators, criminals as we see that there are those who want to
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 89 of 376
attack police. Is it not going to cause problems to remove
visibility of the police force?]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: There‘s some noise that comes from here.
Sorry.
Hon Chair, demilitarisation will not necessarily make ...
... ukuba amapolisa abenkenenkene. Ufuna ndiphendule ngesiNgesi?
[... police to be weak. Do you want me to answer in English?]
It wouldn‘t. It would not necessarily. All it says is that our
members on the ground must be equipped in such a manner that we are
able to sort of make correct callings and determinations, for
instance in how we have to respond to particular situations. Let me
give you an example.
If you have got to deal with a public protest ... you know, just a
specific example ... the question arises ... you are not faced with
a group of people that are armed with R5s, that are armed with
spears and ... they are just demonstrating. So you need an approach,
both in your mind but also even physically for that matter, which
says these are the tools in policing the situation and in enforcing
the law that I‘m going to apply ... that are nonlethal. So it has
got to be a deliberate shift in your head as a police officer on the
ground for example ... but in this situation I‘m not going to use
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 90 of 376
live ammunition, I‘m not going to use any other thing, and so on.
I‘m going to use nonlethal methods to enforce the question of
members of the public having to comply with the law, and so on.
However, if you were to ask me ... the same police officer ... a
report comes in that says a bank downtown is under siege by
criminals for example ... so there is a bank robbery. They are not
going to go there with a water cannon. So I‘m still equipped ... the
same police official. I‘m still equipped to make a determination
that says, look, that situation is a deadly situation and therefore
my manner of intervention must adequately be at a similar level to
deal with it, and so forth.
That‘s why our argument is to say demilitarisation is not about the
question of doing away with the ranks and everything else; it‘s
about cultural change, it‘s about mind change, it‘s about change
management in broader terms, and so it goes.
Madam Chair, I remember I was asked this question about ranks ...
and ranks they produce militarism, and so forth. I said if then that
is the case what do we say about the Salvation Army? It‘s a
denomination. They don‘t beat up people in order for people to be
christened or something, and yet in the Salvation Army you have a
captain ... I think a captain. I suspect ... I‘ve never been in the
Salvation Army, but I suspect a captain is either somebody in the
leadership of the church, either a reverend or a deacon, but he is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 91 of 376
called a captain. They march, but they are praising his almighty,
the Lord. So there are no beatings that take place because of the
ranks that they have imposed onto themselves. So I‘m saying, in
entering the debate around the question of demilitarisation it
should not be narrowed down simply to just the question of the ranks
but it should be about the question of organisational and cultural
change ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your response time is over, hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Oh, I‘m sorry, Madam Chair. Thank you.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister,
in 2012, 34 striking Lonmin platinum miners were shot dead by police
during the dispersal operations; now commonly identified as the
Marikana massacre. Our thoughts are with the respective families
every day.
Hon Minister, one of the Marikana Commission‘s recommendations
included that the SAPS should appoint a panel of experts to assist
in the transformation of the SAPS in various areas, including
training. Has a panel been appointed yet? If not, why not? If so, by
which date does this panel aim to complete its mandate that it had
to execute?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 92 of 376
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Again Minister, I‘m not sure ... The
hon Sibhukwana‘s question may actually be asking you to respond to
the general overhaul, skilling and re-equipping of the police. If
you take a more liberal view on the question you may try to bring it
in. It seems as if it has not connected to the thrust of the
question which is about the demilitarisation of the police. So it is
up to you Minister, if my understanding of the supplementary
question is correct.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much. Madam Chairperson, if
you so allow I will attempt to assist the hon member, and probably
because she‘s smiling at me. Thank you very much. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I hope we strike off the
smiling part ... [Laughter.] ... and you just give us the response.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I‘m sorry, I‘m sorry, Madam Chair. With
regard to the question of the Farlam recommendations specifically,
arising out of the Marikana Commission, we have acted. We have
started some work in that regard. Hon members, you will recall that
at the beginning of this year we made a public announcement to the
effect that we have constituted the panel of experts from various,
sort of, different expertise and various sectors, both in the
country but also internationally, in terms of us having to be
assisted in the work that seeks to improve and transform the working
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 93 of 376
of the SAPS, particularly when it comes to issues of public order
policing. So that has been done.
The one outstanding issue is with regard to the question of an
appointment of a retired judge, for instance, to chair. We are
working with the Department of Justice and Correctional Services for
them to assist us in terms of the appointment of the chair of the
panel; in other words, the retired judge as we had said. So that
work is in progress.
We are hoping that in the next few weeks there will be the first
sitting of the panel to begin to deal with the issues as they arose
out of the Farlam ... Marikana Commission of Inquiry. Thank you very
much.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, maybe the Minister is correct in
saying that the use of the term demilitarisation is a little bit
misleading, but hon Minister, I want to find out will this be the
first phase, if I can put it that way, or the first wave of
demilitarisation after 1994 or maybe some transformation of the way
the police officers are trained, as happened before? I‘m saying ...
because from the responses you have given it looks like, when this
has to happen, it has got to start from the way in which the police
officials are being trained, also incorporating the transformation
of those who are already in the service. I just want to find out if
it has happened before.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 94 of 376
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, I like some of the issues that
hon Khawula raised. This demilitarisation approach is expected to
look into the innermost, sort of, cultural issues of the SAPS, for
instance when it comes to issues of policing. Now, if you do that,
and probably once you talk of issues of change management, people,
culture and everything else having to be tampered with or altered in
one form or the other, the fundamental question is that you have got
to take stock of what you have but also look at the ideal state.
Now, the ideal state would be, what is it that we should end up
being as the SAPS, for example.
Therefore, when you start looking into those areas surely the issue
of how we train our people becomes quite a relevant factor for
instance. However, when you say that and you say, yes we need to
look into how we train people, you must also begin to deal with the
question of what do you do with the ones who were trained in a
particular manner, for example those who are already within the
establishment, not just your new recruits and so on. So you‘ll also
require a different kind of programme that must deal with that.
However, at the centre of demilitarisation, our argument is that it
is a matter of ... we are talking about the question of an approach
to policing – an approach that says we must be ... [Inaudible.] ...
and we must also ensure that the methods of policing do uphold the
constitutional principles of this country that define us as South
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 95 of 376
Africans. So that‘s the essence to our approach with regard to the
question of demilitarisation. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mme T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke rata go botsa Tona potso e le
nngwe fela mabapi le go dirisiwa ga dithunya. Jaaka lefapha la gago
le leka go ntsha sebopego sa bosole mo mapodiseng, ka re ...
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister one
question with regard to the use of firearms. Since your department
is trying to differentiate its image from that of the police, I am
saying ...]
Hardly a week ago, a boy in Tlhabane location in the North West,
Bojanala region in Rustenburg municipality, was shot dead by a
police officer. That boy was just walking on the street. People were
protesting; he was not protesting. Those protesters were not armed.
So my question to you is, are saying that as the department you are
still lacking the capacity to deal with the culture, approach and
manner in which the police are conducting themselves, especially
with regard to public order policing, and with regard to people that
are protesting, for whatever reason they are protesting? Are you
still saying that your department is still lacking that capacity to
capacitate the men and women in blue in using firearms? Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 96 of 376
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, I wouldn‘t know the specific,
sort of, details surrounding the case of the poor child that was
killed in the North West. I also think it will be a different
subject matter to look into.
The fact of the matter is that we must also take into account that
we re-established the public order policing in December 2013 and we
are in the process of capacitating that very same unit. So, amongst
other things, capacitating means the question of beefing up numbers;
also the question of ongoing training and methods with regard to
issues of crowd management and control; and the question of
equipment as part of what needs to assist our members on the ground
as and when they are managing situations of public order and so
forth. Now, it‘s an ongoing kind of matter, for example.
The work on demilitarisation is essentially an effort to try and
intensify and advance our efforts around issues of culture change
and issues of organisational change in so far as approaching these
particular matters.
If I may say so, we should also not lose sight of one thing. One of
the challenging issues, in so far as policing in South Africa is
concerned, is that on average we stand at about 12 000 public
protests per annum in this country, which tells you that there is a
lot of demand and pressure that is piled up around the issues of
policing, and so it goes. Therefore, we as an institution are duty
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 97 of 376
bound to respond adequately to a challenge of this particular
nature, and so on.
Hon member, the question is that this is ongoing work in terms of
improving our approach to policing. However, I think the issue of
the ... the question of the death of the child in the North West is
a matter that would have to be investigated to look at what were the
circumstances pertaining to that particular incident. Thank you very
much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister. I should‘ve
declared that on this last question I most probably should have
recused myself, as I was one of the proponents of demilitarisation
of the Police Service many years ago. It would be very good if on
the panel you actually do invite women of the country to be
represented as a voice because/ we have views on this matter. By the
way, the other person was the current deputy secretary-general of
the ANC. We piloted the ANC‘s position on this matter years ago.
Hon members, I‘d like to say to the House that we will now suspend
the business to enable members to go for lunch. The bells will be
rung for five minutes before we resume business. The House is
suspended.
Business suspended at 12:59 and resumed at 14:01.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 98 of 376
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members
may I start of by apologising for the air conditioner. We have made
several attempts to get it switched off. We have even now sent
people to go and get it switched off, so it is being attended to.
Thank you very much.
Vetting of public service employees
18.
Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of State
Security:
Whether
all
public
service
employees
have
been
vetted
(details furnished), if not, why not; if so, (a) how many
have failed the criteria to obtain the security clearance?
CO48E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson
of the NCOP and members, the state security agency has an integrated
national vetting strategy, which guides the implementation of the
vetting processes across government. In terms of our strategy we
have tried to improve the capacity as well as the turnaround time
for the vetting request.
One has to indicate that not all Public Service employees have been
vetted as the volume of security vetting request from state
department and organs of state have increased substantially and is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 99 of 376
mostly demand driven. Of the total number of 99 516 vetting request
received, to date 52 298 clearances were issued, while 534
clearances were denied.
It is important to indicate that vetting is request driven and the
agency is sometimes confronted with the challenge of some employees
running away and refusing to complete the required documentations,
but there are number a of other issues that we have done as per
government and authorities, the senior managers that are priorities.
People in the supply chain and finance including those that are
working on critical infrastructure.
We are also trying to expand the capacity now in the department and
also look at the decisions that have being made to look at the state
owned enterprises and we are trying to solicit the support of all
the executing authorities, whether in national departments, whether
in provinces and municipalities. I thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much Chair, thank you very much
Minister for the answer. Hon Minister, in October 2015 the Mail &
Guardian reported that parliamentary officials were being re-vetted.
Why did Parliament ask the State Security Agency, SSA, to re-vet
these officials?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Well thank you very much. As we have
indicated in our response to the said question from the media, we do
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 100 of 376
respond to the request and is on record that the office of the
Secretary to Parliament did make a request, because of the nature of
the work people do. It might also be very important to understand
that there is also different categorisation of the security
clearances depending on the minimum information security standards
for each and every country must be able to do that, for an example,
if you are going for a confidential, that security clearance is for
10 years. But if you look at the top secret you go for 5 years with
certain regularly views, we are responding to a request for a
service that we have to provide.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you
Minister. Is there any other ..., hon Terblanche, any other ...,
none?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you Chairperson. Hon Minister, I haven‘t
made my calculations yet, but the number that you stated and
comparing it with the number of government employees, do you may be
have a time frame when this vetting process will be finalised?
Because SSA hasn‘t done the calculations that you haven‘t touched
barely, you know, you just scratched it from the surface today.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, remember the
introduction of the Minimum Information Security Standard which is a
requirement in terms of safe guiding the information of the state.
The various levels on how to safe guard that information doesn‘t
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 101 of 376
necessarily mean that all state employees must be vetted. And as a
department and as I have said earlier this is request driven,
various accounting officers or accounting authorities or executing
authorities, are the ones that put the request.
We don‘t demand that they bring people for vetting, but government
has been very clear in saying that certain areas must be prioritised
like fighting corruption in the e Public Service and that is why we
are saying we are prioritising people in various areas mostly around
finance and supply chain, senior managers. More importantly, we are
also going to critical infrastructure because of some of the issues
we have observed about critical infrastructure that is being
affected.
The numbers that you may see there, they are not equivalent to the
numbers of the Public Service because not everybody must be vetted,
it depends on the nature of your job, the information you get
exposed to. But internally as we have said we are trying to increase
our capacity, because we have two vetting agencies inside ourselves
but there are other vetting agencies done in the security cluster
and there is a clear directive to say lets look at the single
vetting agency to bring all those particular issues that are there
including the criteria we must look at, including dealing with
issues of integrity of those who get to be employed in the service
of the state. I thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 102 of 376
Mr M J MOHAPI: Thank you very much Chairperson. Hon Minister, I just
want to check given that South Africa subscribes to a unitary state,
what happens nationally and provincially should automatically
happens at local sphere level. I just want to check in terms of
ensuring even at the local level, particularly at the municipal
level, if there is vetting that is really taking place especially
around combating issues or tendencies of corruption. How will you
really ensure that it also happens as part of the Public Service,
hence you pursuing a single Public Service in future?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Engagements are happening in various
levels of government like there is an agreement that vetting is one
of the important things. We have engaged our accounting officers
with municipal managers using the forum called premier‘scoordinating forums in various provinces to expose them to the
requirements of missing our national vetting strategy that is there.
We are starting to see some cooperation and most of the people even
in local government most of the MMs are vetted, most of the HODs are
vetted. I don‘t have the statistics now right here, but in instances
where we discover that people are part of the categorisation of the
critical areas we must safe guard. However as a Minister, I do
personally write to the executing authorities to say the following
officials are not vetted. They are exposed to important information
of the state. Let us subject them to the process.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 103 of 376
Executing authorities are also assisting in many instances, because
some people try to avoid the questions we ask, some they take the
forms and disappear for some time, for quite some time, and if the
forms are not back you can‘t be in a position even if the request
put and say we have completed that. That is why we are putting those
particular stringent measures, even to say what do we do if someone
is not actually co-operating with the process.
Theft at SSA offices
37.
Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of State
Security:
(1)
Whether,
with
regard
to
theft
which
took
place
in
the State Security offices where money and computers
were
stolen,
the
safety
of
South
African
state
information has been compromised; if not, how was this
conclusion reached; if so, (a) how and (b) what are
the further relevant details;
(2)
(a) what action has been taken in this regard and (b)
what measures are in place to prevent these criminal
activities from happening in the future?
CO68E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, this
question is probably also linked to Question 56 and Question 57. Our
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 104 of 376
answer is that in the early hours of 27 December 2015, a group of
people broke into the offices of the State Security. Probably I must
not use the word broke. They walked in ...
They walked into our offices in the foreign branch, targeting the
office of the cashier where foreign currency of approximately
R17 million was stolen and not R50 million as was referred to in one
question, and as was purported by the media. It is not R50 million
and not what the media had purported. Only money was stolen during
the break-in. No computer hardware or any documentation or
information that is related to the security of the state was taken.
The actions that we took immediately after the incident, those
responsible in the organisation reported the matter to the SA Police
Service‘s Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigation - referred
to as the Hawks - who immediately came to the scene. And because of
our own systems we had to work together with the police in order to
be able to open an internal investigation.
We can then report that, as the hon members have seen in the media,
certain issues have actually happened. Contained in our record here,
is the case number and the name of the police station where the case
was reported in Pretoria. We will read the record, hon Chairperson.
Six suspects were detained on suspicion of being involved in the
case and four of them are from the State Security Agency. Three of
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 105 of 376
them had to remain in custody and out of the three, two were from
the department. They have been criminally charged and have appeared
in court on several occasions and further investigations are
happening. On 6 April 2016 we will be going back to court and even
last week they did appear in court.
The investigating efforts also resulted in other individuals being
identified who are believed to have assisted the perpetrators in
carrying out the break-in. Investigations are continuing because of
a number of the individuals that we could see in the footage.
The department has been providing technical support working in close
collaboration with the Hawks throughout the investigation.
Internally, disciplinary steps have been taken against those
individuals that were implicated and were on duty on the day. These
include 10 members in the department that have been suspended.
Security clearances of those individuals have been invoked and
withdrawn and disciplinary processes are commencing. A number of
those individuals who are either in finance or security have been
interviewed using a polygraph.
We have introduced additional security measures to secure our
facilities especially the issues of safekeeping the money. These
include the physical and electronic measures, advanced accesscontrol system and also the implementation of measures in terms of
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 106 of 376
the integrity of the employees. Because this was an internal job,
the integrity of the employees had to be looked at.
Lastly, we have been in a position to brief our oversight committee
- the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence - on what has
happened and the process that was followed so far. We have also
communicated this – and that is when media got hold of the story relating what had happened. We have been very cautious not to
prejudice the investigation as other culprits are still on the run.
But more importantly, as the department and the Ministry we thank
those South Africans who, when an alert was sent, were able to
volunteer and co-operate with us. At this stage the department has
no intention to communicate further because of the sensitive nature
of the stage at which the investigation is, at the moment. At this
stage the matters are before the courts. I thank you.
Ms T WANA: Hon Chairperson of this House, I am satisfied with the
answer. Thank you very much.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, I think you have
explained explicitly what has been a rapid response from the side of
the State Security and other related institutions, but the simplest
question that could be posed by an ordinary person in the street is
whether we, as a country, are not vulnerable.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 107 of 376
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, through you, the
incident that happened there is one of those that made us as the
department to feel embarrassed. But the most important thing is to
assure South Africans that as the country we remain relatively
stable. The law-enforcement agencies have been able to respond all
the time to any incident here in South Africa. The fact of the
matter is that this is an internal job. One cannot even access our
facilities without the assistance of the internal people. There was
no break-in. People walked in there, hon Chairperson, using an
access card. That is why we have been in a position of using our own
technology to assist the police to apprehend the suspects. And we
hope that a serious message will be send through the court processes
For those officers who work in our environment, in terms of their
own integrity and the oath they take when joining us, this is a
serious bridge of the trust that we have on them. But the country
remains safe. One cannot even attempt to get into our building if
you are not from inside. You will be caught. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, hon member.
Mr B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chairperson to the hon Minister, thank you
very much for that explanation. I speak on behalf of many residents
and people of this country when I say this was not just a theft from
a local cookie shop or the local sweet shop. I do not think that
R17 million or R50 million or whatever the real value is can be
taken so lightly.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 108 of 376
The question that I have Mr Minister is: How can a country trust the
State Security Agency, SSA? How can we trust that you have the
interest our citizens at heart when the department has been fooled
by your own people? This not only questions the effectiveness of the
SSA, but throws light on the poor quality of vetting of the
personnel. This incident has unfortunately had a huge impact on the
economic position of South Africa and questions South Africa‘s
position to be able to maintain investor confidence. Hon Minister,
how will you ensure that an incident like this does not ever happen
again?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, you have several
supplementary questions and you are required to respond to one.
[Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair, I do not think it is
correct to create an impression that South Africans do not trust us.
People have views but when it comes to matters of national security,
we have to put aside our politics. We are one country, one people
and one flag. An incident has happened. The most important thing is
that after the incident happened necessary and concrete steps were
taken and individuals have been arrested. Due to the fact that our
constitutional democracy requires that we must respect the
Constitution, let us therefore allow our law-enforcement agencies
and our courts to make a determination about these individuals.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 109 of 376
We do agree that it puts a blemish on the agency if these incidents
happen but we will always be judged on whether we were able to
provide leadership to deal with these things or not. Even in the
best institutions in other democracies – we can speak about those
other countries – these incidents do happen. You work with people
and people are fallible. There is not even a single family that
cannot say ... Sihlalo, kunesibhedi kumuzi nomuzi. [There are rogue
elements in every household.] But the question is: How do you deal
with those when they come to the fore?
I am very confident that the leadership of the department, even the
oversight committee which is our Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence, took a keen interest. They came and spoke to us; we
gave them a report so that we could account on what we did and they
are very satisfied. But it is far fetched to say the incident had
any issues to do with our economic downturn.
The reality in terms of our economic downturn is about issues in the
global space that were dealt with by the President in his state of
the nation addressed. Let us not stretch this matter to other
imaginations. We have put it on record, the money that has been
stolen is only R17 million and not R50 million or any other figure.
That is the money that has been counted in terms of our own records
as government. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 110 of 376
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson to the hon Minister, was any of the
money that was stolen recovered? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, at this stage there
is some money that has been recovered, but not all. The
investigation is still continuing. However, at this stage I am not
going to be putting any amount on record in terms of how much was
recovered and how much has not been recovered.
When the police have done their work and have finalised the matter,
we would be communicating to South Africans, including this House,
because we account here through you as public representatives. We
will give those figures. But we want to commend the police. They
have done a very good job - and very swiftly - against people who
actually undermined our security by thinking that they can just dash
away with the money that belongs to the state.
Mr O SEFAKO: Hon Chair and hon Minister, thank you for the speedy
reprimand against the culprits. The question is: Is there any
mechanism in place to ensure that there is no recurrence of such
incident? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Sefako, that was subsection 2(b)
and I quote, ―What measures are in place to prevent these criminal
activities from happening in the future?‖ That has been responded
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 111 of 376
to. In that case the last supplementary question will go to you, Mr
Khawula.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I would have passed because two of my
colleagues have read my mind ... [Interjections.] ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay!
Mr M KHAWULA: ... hon Mohapi and hon Gaehler. But now, hon
Chairperson, the Minister seems to be dismissing this as just a
moderate event. I want to say, maybe, hon Minister, it is not about
how much was stolen; even if it had been a R10,00. The issue here is
that we are talking about State Security Offices. Now, this is the
question which I was going to ask, which has been asked by the hon
Mohapi, but I wanted to say that the hon Minister must not just
dismiss this issue; it is serious matter even if it was a mere
R10,00.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair, we are on record that we
take the matter very serious, but we are also equally surprised when
people try to score cheap political points on these matters of
national security. The fact of the matter that we have taken action
we have condemned the act both internally and externally shows how
serious we look at the matter. But we cannot allow a situation where
people would try to play political games and try to underscore as if
there are no systems in place.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 112 of 376
We have said, and it‘s on record, that this is an internal job. Hon
member, you can try to go to the state security building and attempt
to break in, we will catch you; unless you are going to try to do
the exercise working with the internal people. The people walked in
using an access card. There was no shoot in.
Therefore, our message is that we take these matters serious and we
are bringing people to book. The fact of the matter is that – and
this we also mentioned as one of the measures – the taking away of
the security clearance is a serious issue. You know that if you have
no security clearance you cannot work in the state.
The fact that we took a decision in our own ANC National General
Council, NGC, that people who are working in this sector must be
rotated on an ongoing basis so that we do not have the problems we
experience on enrol and in the revetting of individuals - including
looking at how do we tighten the criteria on vetting in order to
deal with the integrity of individuals – shows that we view this as
serious issue. Unlike just asking a question on whether they have
been found guilty or not guilty in the past, we go deeper than that
so that we can understand your profile and your psyche. We do so in
order to minimise the rogue elements. Rogue elements exist even in
the best institutions in the world, we are not an exception. But the
question is: What do you do with those isolated incidents when they
arise?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 113 of 376
Security breach at SSA
56.
Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of State
Security:
With
reference
to
the
reported
R50
million
theft
of
foreign currency from the State Security Agency (SSA) safe
on 26 December 2015, (a) what progress has been made with
the
arrests
arrested,
in
(c)
this
how
matter,
(b)
how
many
persons
were
many were (i) employed and (ii) not
employed by the SSA and (d) what access measures are in
place to ensure the prevention of future security breaches?
CO87E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP,
Question 56 is the same as the matter that had been raised on
Question 37. But what we wanted to correct on Question 56 is the
amount that was purported to have been stolen. Again, the figure is
not R50 million but it is R17 million. Secondly, what actions have
we taken? We have responded to that. The only matter that needs
response on Question 56, which we have already dealt with somewhere
else, is a number of people that were involved. There were six
people that were detained and four out of six are from the
department, three were criminally charged and they are undergoing
the court processes and two out of the three, are from the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 114 of 376
department. Mathematically, it will go without saying that one is
not employed and the two are employed.
We have responded on the other issues internally to say 10
suspensions have been affected, security clearances invoked and
disciplinary processes are happening. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, Minister, yes, I am aware of the fact
that you answered both questions in ... [Inaudible.] and thank you
for the detailed answer. But Minister, you referred to the vetting
process and I respect that but we cannot overlook the fact that
based on ―walk-in to the office‖, there was no break-in and that is
an indication on the integrity and the effectiveness of the vetting
process as is, especially as your provided yourself the answer in
saying that four of the people were from the department, which could
be part of the vetting process that was not effective. Some of the
people were not employed by the department. It casts another light
on the vetting process in access in all those things.
So, I would like to know what will the department do and what plans
are in place to overview this vetting process, specifically for your
department and all other departments as people have to be rotated to
ensure that this will not place again. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chair, with respect to the integrity
of the vetting process, the system is tight and that‘s the reason
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 115 of 376
people are running away from it. We ask difficult questions, we
interview thorough and even Members of Parliament who are serving in
the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence know that it is a
difficult process. There is even one person who was supposed to be a
member, is running away. He has been running away for more than six
months. It is not an easy process to be subjected to. But we must
not be in a position when we look at human behaviour and try to
equate it to a system. There are people who take an oath on a number
of things that they will never do one, two, three, but because
people are people and fallible, they do these things.
The measures that we have agreed upon, we are going to improve. I
have answered the question of vetting but we have said that we are
going to rotate staff, re-vetting and we even said that we are going
to do integrity and the lifestyle audits. We even said that we must
subject ourselves to lifestyle audits when the President was
addressing the National General Council, NGC, and be able to answer
the question of how do our fortunes change overnight, can we
account?
We hope that even Members of Parliament will volunteer to do so and
all of us who are working in our country could do so, so that we are
transparent about our riches and rags. We need to do that. But
trying to create a statement as if these people were not vetted is
not accurate. They are all vetted, have the vetting certificate. We
think we can be able to do more because we are not actually 100%
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 116 of 376
capable to control human behaviour. Some of the things people try to
do them for one reason or the other. We can try to put internal
controls and these are the ones that we have looked at.
Members of Parliament, in particular Members of the NCOP, you are
welcome if you have suggestion to say how can we actually add other
measures other than the ones that we have thought of as a mitigation
measures.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Minister, it is clear that your department doesn‘t
care about the safety of the country. The manner in which you are
responding to the questions that are put before you, it is a clear
indication that you are not ready to secure this country. My
question to you Minister, is that after all these things that
happened within your department, the stealing of money and whatever
that you have done in terms of vetting and all those things that you
mentioned before us, did you do the vetting before or after the
incident? Secondly, did you implement proper security measures? It
will sound as if it is a joke; it is not as we are talking national
importance here.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order! You are
addressing me, hon Mokwele.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 117 of 376
Ms T J MOKWELE: Relax, Chill. Did you implement those security
measures within the department after the incident happened or before
the incident? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, we are serious about
keeping South Africa safe and many South Africans are recognising
the work that is being done by the law enforcement agencies,
especially the security forces as defined in our Constitution.
People are able to sleep safe, including those who are trying to do
anarchy in the country. We protect our citizens. Our primary
objective and the oath of office that myself and other colleagues in
the Security Cluster we have taken, we have kept this country safe
under difficult conditions when certain South Africans don‘t
understand that the security of the country is everybody‘s
responsibilities in terms of their own conduct. We can assure South
Africans that we will do whatever it takes, irrespective of whether
you are South African or non South African, we will secure you. But
those who seek to undermine our country and do things that are
unconstitutionally, we will defend the Constitution.
With respect to the measures, the measures are in place. We are on
record saying that there was no break-in. It is an internal job of
people using our access controls, collaborating with others, in
other words you collaborate in a commissioning of crime. Hence those
individuals are brought to book and we are satisfied that they are
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 118 of 376
brought to book. In any governance, if there is an incident, you
trace back, review and say what you need to do better.
We have given the measures that we are actually implementing as part
of our review ... [Inaudible] our systems. But I am saying the
systems are tight but they could actually be tightened further to be
enhanced. If the member thinks has the capacity to go in, or any
South African to get into our premises, let them try it and we would
be able to respond. Unless you are being assisted by us, you will
not be able to get into our premises. Even if you are highly
trained, you can‘t get in.
Our conclusion, the incident happened, we have learned but we remain
secured and we will continue to actually focus single-minded to keep
South Africa safe and follow those elements that would seek to
derail our country and make our people not to be able to continue
with their lives.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chair, sorry, I thought you recognised me earlier.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, I didn‘t
see your hand.
Mr J W W JULIUS: I humbly apologise. The Minister asked for
proposals from the NCOP on how to better this Ministry. Firstly, my
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 119 of 376
proposal in be to incorporate it into another Ministry so that we
can reduce the size of the Cabinet. It may be the secure position.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I didn‘t hear
the Minister asking for that proposal hon Julius. He did?
Mr J W W JULIUS: I am firstly giving a proposal and I am coming to
that question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You will
respond? I am sorry I interjected hon Julius.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Did everyone hear me? I said the proposal is that
we incorporate this Ministry into another one to reduce the size of
the Cabinet so as to save costs to our country.
My observation from the Minister‘s response is that you can walk in
to a building; you don‘t walk in to a safe. How safe is that safe
that you can walk in because it was not broken into? You can walk in
through a gate to access ... [Inaudible.]. I want to know how safe
is this safe and how did people walk into a safe and how many people
have access to the safe? Minister, it is impossible for me to
believe - state security! You can just walk-in as the Minister says
it wasn‘t a break-in but a walk-in. you don‘t walk into a safe, even
at the bank; you don‘t walk-in to a safe there. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 120 of 376
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, you were correct to
intervene. Those of us, who are parliamentarians, we took an oath
and we must understand the Constitution and the laws of the land. He
has no jurisdiction about how Cabinet must look; only one person
called the President of the Republic. Therefore, it is very
important that advice we get to be given, must be constitutional.
With respect to the issues that are being raised – how safe is the
safe, very important that as members we cannot choose which
information. We say it was an organised internal activity. I‘m not
going to go to the details of how those particular individuals have
done the operation, but the reality is that there was no break-in;
it was a walking in from various points that you can access the
systems including how the safe was accessed. Allow the police to do
their work competently. Let‘s allow those individuals who are
appearing in court to be able to answer how they did the operation
and be able to be given ... [Inaudible.] It will send the message
that you cannot work for an organisation and you wake up, for one or
the other, and start to work against your organisation. Thank you.
Combating illicit financial outflows
42.
Kgoši S G Thobejane (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of State
Security:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 121 of 376
What is the role of his department in combating illicit
financial outflows from South Africa (details furnished)?
CO73E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much hon Chair.
Illicit financial flows are illegal movements of money or capital
from one country to the other. It usually takes the form of drug
sales which entails trade-based money laundering techniques to mix
legal money from the sale of used cars or illegal money from drug
sales. The importer using trade misinvoicing to evade custom duties
and income taxes.
A human trafficker carrying a briefcase of cash across the bother
and depositing it in the foreign bank. We know that our former
president, President Mbeki was assigned by the African Union to
commission the work about these particular issues where that report
was received by the Head of State and the government in the AU
Summit in Addis; where it was reported that more than 50 million US
dollars are stolen from our continent. The number of measures have
been agreed to say what we need to do from legislation, sharing of
information and doing other things in raising awareness.
The issue of illicit financial flow is a matter that has been
flagged in the National Security Strategy of the Republic. As the
agency we work within the security cluster to conduct investigations
and related matters to the combating of these phenomenon. We must be
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 122 of 376
able to add that these agencies have been able to deal with these
issues either in our points of entry like OR Tambo International
Airport or Lebombo border gate and in various instances where we are
able to deal with these particular issues.
In addition, we are providing training and raising awareness amongst
foreign intelligence services in our region in as so far as around
illicit financial flows are concerned so that we can solicitate our
cooperation and sharing of intelligence. We are also participating
in the activities of the financial action task force at
international level under the financial intelligence centre. We are
also active support that is provided by National Intelligence Coordinating Committee to finalise a national strategy on the illicit
economy.
One of the focus areas being the national strategy on illicit
economy is the matter of illicit financial flows. Lastly, we are
working closely with our lead Department on International Relations
and Cooperation and National Treasury on the creating of multidisciplinary strategy to curb the illicit financial outflows.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Chairperson, thank you Minister for the response.
I want to believe that all of us are aware that this particular
syndicate is a cause for concern. It is not just about money that
goes along with serious criminal activities including murder and
what have you because the people who are transiting through this
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 123 of 376
part of the country and in the continent are the most dangerous
individuals who do not have mercy. I would want to check the
decisiveness of the intention of the department to make sure that
this thing in one way or another we bring to an end. Because if we
are going to continue leaving it the way it is, it is robbing
ourselves of taxes that we were supposed to benefit from and the
rest of all those things which, like smuggling and drug-related
businesses, are dangerous to our society. What is it that we are
doing seriously outside the continent as a country to make sure that
we reduce the burden of this on the country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you Chair. As we have said we
are working in the international arena to curb this; because most of
the times these flows have everything to do with transnational
organised crime in totality and our law enforcement agencies,
various departments in the security cluster we are working with our
partners across the world and including countries that we have
relations with. Secondly, we are also very active because we are
worried about that if this can be allowed some of these monies can
actually be involved in the funding of terrorists activities where
South Africa can become one of those countries where they plan to do
logistical support.
That is why our financial intelligence centre has been strengthened
and we are receiving that. All the intelligence services are using
what we call Nicall and we are able to share that particular
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 124 of 376
information we are working with, including with the economic
cluster. You are correct though that if there are certain companies
and individuals that take this, it robs us of an opportunity to have
the relevant tax revenue base that could be used by the country to
discharge its obligation as promised in our manifesto.
We are also seeking the issues of collaboration of countries they
are known countries that because of their tax regime systems that
are there those particular countries become tax havens. So we could
be in a position to get that collaboration that even if we want to
recoup that particular money from those countries. That is why if
you look at the report by President Mbeki there is an issue about
how should we actually put those legislative mechanism, the issues
of collaboration and coordination but most importantly the issues of
recovery. You might know that certain goods have gone to another
country but if that country doesn‘t want to play ball we could not
be able to bring it home. Thank you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga, Mme Modulasetilo. [Thank you, Madam
Chairperson.]
Hon Minister ...
... ke lebogela karabo ya gago ka ga seno. Ke na le ngongorego e le
nngwe fela, jaaka lefapha ... [... thank you for your response about
this. My only concern is
that as a department ...]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 125 of 376
... you interact with other departments, you are doing this you are
doing that there is nothing from your department that says this is
how we are going to deal with this problem that is facing our
country, which effects negatively towards the country in general. I
am appealing to you hon Minister that when you answer us don‘t tell
us about the strategies and the plans; those are the issues we know.
We know that you have strategies, plans and you are interacting with
other departments but what is it that you are putting in place that
will make sure that financial illicit flow is reduced and in the end
we don‘t have it as country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: We don‘t work in silos, we play an
important part. The Department of State Security collects
information and it is intelligence evidence based the actual
tradecraft; that is why when we make statements as a security
cluster say we do intelligence driven operations. We are not only
interested in the outflows. We are also interested in the inflows. I
am not going to come here and say who is bringing money illegally.
We know them. We know them individually, we know every day who
brings how much, we know.
Why would that Lebombo incident of millions of rands that were being
recovered, should we be standing there in the rooftop and say this
is what we do? The most important thing that the South Africans are
interested in is that crime is being brought down.
How do we do it
they are not concerned about the methodology. We were involved, Home
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 126 of 376
Affairs leading us there, SARS and everybody we took that money at
the Lebombo border gate. Several busts have happened in OR Tambo,
Lanseria and many other airports.
Probably, comrade Chairperson of our cluster, we need to start to
deal with these other individuals who are actually bringing money
millions for other activities in the country.
We have the
information and we are acting and when we do... [Interjections.] In
terms of my training I can‘t discuss operations. I respond on
policy, you hold us on policy; you hold us on strategy; that is
accountability. We are coming irrespective of your position. Get
money in a wrong way, we will arrest you. Take money whether you are
a company or not, try to take the money that is due that we should
be using in our taxes. And we are doing well.
That is why we have strengthened our own economic intelligence unit
in the State Security Agency as a response to deal with these
particular issues. That is why even if you look even in the illicit
economy look at our strategy we even spoke about environmental
crimes. Even the question of rhino poaching the incidents that you
see, well-coordinated work of the security cluster, intelligence
driven perpetrators that are actually depriving us the returns on
our natural assets. We are making inroads.
I hope that members
those who have people represented in the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence they will find an opportunity to be briefed because at
least to those people we account in detail.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 127 of 376
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Actually hon
members, hon Minister we will not encourage that. [Laughter.]
Members of the Joint Standing Committee of Intelligence are vetted
and ... [Interjections.] are under oath. The rest of the members are
not.:
Mr F ESSACK: Thank you for the opportunity hon Chair. Hon Minister
it is good to hear what you have to say [Laughter.] but my question
is based on what you have just said. I have decided to change my
question on a spur of the moment but it is an easy one and on a
lighter note. Based on what you have just explained that lot of
information is subject to intelligence that is privy perhaps would
you be able to explain to the House and to the country the
information at hand besides passengers to a wedding what else did
the Gupta family bring in through Waterkloof? Thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Well, one of the things that we
observe in our oath is not to make insinuations and also speak on
issues that are not facts. Intelligence as a tradecraft is evidence
based, I don‘t have such kind of information. If a member wants to
bring what he reads in the papers as facts we will respond to a
factual information you put. And unfortunately it is also not even
part of what we are actually doing here.
If a member thinks that there is a particular family that is being
purported to be involved in criminal activities the honourable thing
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 128 of 376
to do as an hon member of the House is not to be an accomplice. You
are helping the law enforcement agencies, you take the information,
and you provide the information and allow the law enforcement agency
to be able to take its cause.
But to be an hon member that seeks to
create aspersions without a recourse is not taking the country
forward. That is why we say matters of security are everybody‘s
business.
Nawe uliphoyisa. [You are also a policeman/woman.]
Tabling of White Paper on Intelligence
57.
Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of State
Security:
(a) When in 2016 will the White Paper on Intelligence be
tabled in Parliament and (b) what legislative amendments
his
department
intends
to
table
in
terms
of
the
Intelligence Services Oversight Act, 1994 (Act 40 of 1994)?
CO88E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, with respect to the
White Paper on Intelligence, we have not been in a position to table
this. We had intentions to do that, but in the discussions between
us and the Leader of Government Business we are trying to prioritise
the legislation in this particular year. Secondly, with regards to
legislative amendments, we had some discussions amongst ourselves
and said that in the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40 of
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 129 of 376
1994, we need to create a provision to deal with the cul-de-sac that
we are faced with, the absence of the inspector-general.
If we had made a provision of a deputy inspector-general, IG, with
the terms little bit synchronised, we would be able to do that. Our
intention was actually to bring the White Paper this financial year.
After the discussions with the Leader of Government Business we
would be able to confirm with the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence to say we are proceeding or not. The other legislation
that we have an interest in is the Cybercrime and Computer Related
Crimes Bill that will be getting into the parliamentary process
because the Department of Justice that we are working with as a
cluster is on its way right now. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, could the Minister please explain to us the
oversight role of the State Security Agency, SSA, and whether the
SSA will be updating its outdated system.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, I left to be assisted.
I couldn‘t hear the last words about the system - please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Labuschagne, please come back.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 130 of 376
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, could the Minister please, explain the
oversight role of the SSA, and whether the SSA will be updating its
outdated system.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Labschagne, I didn‘t think I heard you correctly. That is a
completely new question - completely new question.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, it is a completely new
question. If the member wishes to place the question for written
reply it‘s okay. But it needs to be more clearer - crystal clearer.
I‘m trying to figure out because I have too many systems. I don‘t
know which one, whether is the information technology, IT, system or
whatever system. Actually, we will need to get it to be a written
one, but more clearer so that when we respond we are able to respond
accurately.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order, hon Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are on a
point of order, madam.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: In my point of order, hon Chair, my first question
was in terms of the Intelligence Service Oversight Act. Now I raised
a follow up question about the oversight role that has to do with
the Intelligence Service Oversight Act. Then I asked when, and will
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 131 of 376
you update the outdated system, meaning were you to update the Act;
and how are you going to prioritise it? I can‘t see how you can say
this is a new question.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, firstly, we don‘t do
oversight on ourselves. We are the executive. The Intelligence
Service Oversight Act places the responsibility through the office
of the inspector-general and the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence. We can account like we are accounting now. It‘s on
your table. But we have noticed that in some legislation we could be
in a position to initiate for ourselves as the executive in the
interest of delivering on our mandate. We have noticed that in this
oversight Act the absence of an officer called the deputy inspectorgeneral is one of the important additions that we think all
political parties are going to support when we have to deal with an
instance where we have no inspector-general, IG, for more than a
period of eight months right now.
The other legislation as I‘ve said, the White Paper, is a matter.
There are discussions among us in the executive. When we have made
up our minds we will advise Parliament so that, through the Joint
Standing Committee on Intelligence, we could be able to proceed.
There is no other intension to bring other legislative review or
introducing legislation unless you members, using your
constitutional provision, want to introduce one, and it‘s okay.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 132 of 376
Cyber crime
43.
Mr M J Mohapi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of State
Security:
(a) What is his department‘s role in combating cyber crime
(details furnished) and (b) what is the prevalence of this
crime in South Africa?
CO74E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, the National
Cybersecurity Policy Framework was approved by Cabinet in 2012 with
a responsibility of co-ordinating government response to
cybersecurity matters. These includes among other things developing
policies and establishing structures to combat cybercrime,
cyberspace, espionage and cyber terrorism.
As we have noted in our
budget vote speech last year, securing our cyberspace is a
collective responsibility of government, the private sector and the
entire society.
During a recent cybersecurity conference which we hosted together
with government departments, the private sector, academic
institutions, we agreed to implement a co-ordinated approach in
dealing with cybersecurity concerns and these included a need to
develop an academic programme that focuses on development the
required technical skills, awareness programme and civic education
and investing in research and development.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 133 of 376
Within the security cluster, we have embarked on a structural
process to build capacity to respond to cyber threats. The
department of telecommunication working with all of us in the
cluster late last year in partnership with the Council for
Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, they were able to launch a
Cybersecurity Hub which serves as a platform for the private sector
and the public to share information on how to manage online safety.
Some of the institutions that we have already put in place is a
Cybersecurity Centre. The government Computer Security Incident
Response Team, CSIRT, which is a monitoring and response to cyber
incidents. Cybercrime which involve electronic money laundering and
fraud, freezing activities and racketeering is a matter that remains
top priority given its prevalence and the associated losses which
amounts to hundreds of millions of rands annually. Thank you.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, allow me to start by commending the
Minister in terms of their responsibility. Minister, your department
and the Hawks Cybercrime Unit apprehended a 50year old Serbian man
for utilising ATM card skimming devices. Not only that. There were
two couples from Bulgaria who were also using cloned bank cards who
were also apprehended on the 2nd of December 2015. Chairperson, its
very clear cyberattacks are real, globally.
Sometimes in 2013, it was reported that South Africa was number
three in terms of phishing incidences. Hon Minister, in 2014 it‘s
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 134 of 376
also reported that five billion was lost as result of cyberattacks.
Over and above cyber capacity skills constraints is a challenge
globally. Any intervention measures from the side of our country in
terms of addressing the cyber capacity skills constraints? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, our agreement in our
cybersecurity seminar was to build the skills pool and build cyber
warfare expects. That is why we have agreed with universities
working amongst ourselves as government to say we are offering
bursaries including our own intelligence academy. One of the intake
which is in the biggest numbers is around these particular skills.
However, we have also said that South Africa – so that we can be in
a position to protect ourselves. Investment on research and
development is going to be very key. The system that we can call it
the early warning system is developed by a South African in the
CSIR. And in our world whoever does the command and control has more
advantage. Therefore, even the software that we are able to deploy
must be South African based. That is why working with the private
sector, academic institutions, we think we could be in a position to
do more. South Africa remains a leader when it comes to these
particular issues. But we have set other interventions, awareness
campaigns because, South Africans, even those that we think that
they are enlightened, they do become victims. You find someone
working in government earning well and think he has won a
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 135 of 376
competition. And they say how you will win a competition when you
have not even entered into the competition? We are putting all that
important information. We must start to work on this ignorance. A
lot of criminal activities are taking place. That is why we have
said civic education and awareness is going to be one of the biggest
drivers while research and development and investment in skills is
going to remain our core.
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, Is everyone finished with their greetings
...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mathys,
don‘t greet them!
Ms L MATHYS ... my question is, we have spoken at length about
cybercrime in terms of criminal activity. I want to talk about
cybercrime amongst our most vulnerable which are our children. We
have got kids who are on social media so much today. There is
criminal on social media that target our young people like
prostitution and all sorts of things. What do we have our social
security cluster doing in terms of monitoring that and making sure
that our children are safe on cybercrime?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, we do play our part in
terms of monitoring of these platforms because, we do monitor
certain specific words but, also sometimes we cannot be in a
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 136 of 376
position to be there all the time in terms of certain information
where people try to enter into our systems.
However, as we have always believed, like the President said during
state of nation address, partnerships are the key. Working together
we can be able to do that. That is why when there was an incident
here in Cape Town of a youngster that nearly left the country and
join the Islamic state of Iraq and Syria, Isis, our clarion call
remains the responsibility of good parenting. Have an interest, what
is your child doing? These gargets are the best gargets to give our
children but, we have a responsibility to know in this platform,
what are your children up to? There are incidents, even of elders
trying to become – there is a cupido in the system – trying to find
the wife of a husband. We know, even of an incident where someone
had to post money to a person you don‘t even know. Elders themselves
need to be conscientised.
The issues about the sex pests that are there, is a reality. That is
why we are saying, putting more civic education, alerting of our
people of the advantages that are there in the technology, because
it provides those endless opportunities. But, the downside of the
other activity is that, if we don‘t play our part. Even terrorist
organisations, they don‘t have to put the foot into the country.
They recruit people here, arrange everything here, until you leave
the country and we wake up one day and you are saying you child is
missing or certain things have happened into the system.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 137 of 376
I do agree with the member and we hope Members of Parliament are
going to take this matter as one of their responsibility in
educating South Africans, but more importantly also educating
ourselves as individuals so that we can empower others with the
information we would have gathered. I thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, in your response Minister you indicated
that there are also a number of measures one can take to avert the
issue of being taken for a ride on cybercrime and all that. What
risk should we be aware of as the public about cybercrime that we
can be able to cap in order for us to stay away from the cybercrime?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, we would not be in a
position to give all the details here. One of the most important
thing is that study groups or committees, the department is
available. We can come and share information, the dos and don‘ts. So
that at least we can be able to have you as our ambassadors for the
people and the republic of South Africa so that we too don‘t become
the victims of our own development. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister,
thank you very much for coming. Not for answering questions. There
is a very wise old man who said, ―You must never thank the fish for
...‖ [Inaudible.] So we thank you for executing your responsibility.
We move on.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 138 of 376
Theft at Defence Intelligence offices
35.
Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
Defence and Military Veterans:
(1)
Whether, with reference to the theft which took place
at the Defence Intelligence
offices,
the
safety
of
the South Africans is compromised; if not, how was
this
conclusion
mechanisms
are
reached,
in
place
if
so,
(a)
to
prevent
how,
(b) what
these
criminal
activities from happening in the future and (c) what
are the further relevant details;
(2)
whether there was a link between the theft at the
State Security Agency and her department‘s offices; if
not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what
are the relevant details?
CO66E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you Chairperson
and hon members of the NCOP, the question from hon Wana is about the
theft that took place at the Defence Intelligence Head Office.
Chairperson, hon members the safety of South Africans was not
compromised in any way when the items were stolen. It concerns us
that our building security was bridged. Since the incident, security
has been tightened with more cameras installed and access control
reassessed and addressed.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 139 of 376
I do not want to go into details of the actual investigation.
Currently the S A Police Service, Saps‘ Crime Intelligence Unit is
working very closely with us to identify the culprits. We have
already identified four of those and two have gone through a
polygraph test and beyond that we are conducting further
investigation and following up all the leads.
The last question was to establish if there is any link between the
two crimes committed at the State Security Agency, SSA, and the
Defence Intelligence Headquarters. I can say without any fear of
contradiction that so far, we have not proven that there is a direct
threat link to what happened at the State Security Agency and
Defence Head Office. Thank you.
Ms T WANA: Thank you Chairperson and thank you Minister for the
answer. I am satisfied. Thank you
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is there any
other member?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister I know that you have said at this
stage the state security has not been compromised but should the hon
Minister find out that important and vital information was stolen
along with computers which could threaten the security of the
country does the department has the plan or measures in place to
deal with such a matter. Thank you
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 140 of 376
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you hon member,
no it could not have been compromised because the laptops which were
stolen were new. So, there was no information belonging to the state
which was loaded in those ... [Inaudible]. Thank you
Mr J W W JULIUS: I would like to find out from the Minister if this
was an inside job? Did they also walk in? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I can only answer
that question once the investigation is concluded; and the culprits
are identified and sent for trial in a court of law.
Ms L MATHYS: My question to the Minister is: How safe are we as a
country? This is really serious. If someone can break into our safe
department and steal or is someone trying to tell us something that
we have been infiltrated or something. If anyone can get into our
safe department, how safe are we as a country? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: You are right. It
must be people who are daring the state as we have seen these day
that is has been fashionable to dare this government and the state
and the only way in which we can deal with this matter decisively is
to actually assert the authority of the state at all levels,
all
government department including Parliament. There is a need for
South Africans to assert the authority of the state and for people
to appreciate that there is a need to defend the democracy that many
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 141 of 376
people fought and died for. So I fully agree with the hon member but
I think this is the responsibility of all us that all of us should
be the ears and eyes of a democratic government so that we are not
undermined in the manner in which it has been going on. Thank you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. [Thank you Chairperson.]
Hon Minister, are we safe as South Africans ...
... mo mabogong a gago. Motl Tona Mahlobo o fetsa go bua gore e ne e
le tiro ka beng. Jaanong, wena jaaka Tona ya Lefapha la Tshireletso
le Bagaka ba Ntwa o ne wa re o tla re itsise fa dipatlisiso di sena
go wediwa.
Jaanong, ke batla go utlwa go tswa mo go wena gore a
rona, re le Maaforikaborwa, re babalesegile gonne mafapha ka bobedi
botlhokwa ebile a mekamekana le matshelo le pabalesego ya
Maaforikaborwa. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[... under your watch. Hon Minister Mahlobo just said that it was an
inside job. You, as the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans,
promised to inform us once the investigations have been concluded. I
want to hear from you: Are we as South Africans safe? The two
departments are equally important as they tackle South Africans‘
lives and safety.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I can assure you that
you are safe hon members otherwise you would not have a peaceful
23 FEBRUARY 2016
sleep.
PAGE: 142 of 376
To be honest if you look at what is happening in South
Africa you will see that we are relatively safe as compared to what
is happening in the other countries. Of course, we are not immune to
some of the things that are happening elsewhere in the African
continent because we are part of the global village those things may
happen in future in South Africa but for now the S A National
Defence Force, SANDF, is committed and continues to defend and
protect the sovereignty of the Republic of South Africa.
Loss of valuable expertise
4.
Mr G Michalakis (Free State: DA) asked the Minister of
Defence and Military Veterans:
Whether her department is currently losing valuable
expertise; if not, what is the position in this regard;
if so, what are the relevant details?
CO34E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: No, we are not losing
any valuable skills or expertise at all. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I might just mention that it so
delightful to see the hon Minister in the House. We normally don‘t
see her much in the committees. Welcome hon Minister. Hon Minister,
in 2008 there was an article in the newspaper of the then Minister
of Defence, your predecessor, hon Mosiuoa Lekota, stating that the
SA Air Force is losing valuable expertise to the private sector
since there is a perception that there are more opportunities
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 143 of 376
outside of the air force than within. It is not only pilots, hon
Minister, but technicians as well and the technicians are vital to
the air force.
In 2015, only last year - the end of last year- another article
appeared in the newspaper, again, mentioning the ongoing out flux of
trained pilots. It therefore continues for a period of over eight
years and it is a reality, contrary to what you have denied hon
Minister. What is your department doing to curb the outflux of these
experts? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, firstly,
you are saying you are very happy to see me, I am happy to see you
too. I would have very much wanted to visit the committee and appear
and present because I have worked and served as a chair of the
portfolio committee for seven years. So, I know the importance of
appearing before a committee and account. However, you do that only
when you are called to do so. You do not impose yourself on the
committee. Thank you.
The second matter is - yes, you are correct that in 2008 and 2015
there would have been such an article referring to what has happened
over the years in the SA National Defence Force, SANDF. There is no
doubt that we have lost pilots from the Air Force. There is no doubt
that we have lost some engineers in the course of that as well but I
cannot say anything right now about what is happening. We have
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 144 of 376
developed a retention strategy because of this fear of losing these
skills.
The other thing or issue we probably need to be aware of is that,
much as people left the Air Force and went for greener pastures
elsewhere, some of them are coming back and they are saying it is
cold out there, they would rather come back and serve the SA
National Defence Force. Of course, we are very happy about that
because these are the people we invested in and spent a lot of money
on. So, when they come back and say yes, there is lot of money but
it is cold out there, we are very happy to receive them. We welcome
them back into the SA National Defence Force.
Mr E MAKUE: Hon Minister, I am one of those ordinary South Africans
who do not know much about these military things. However, over the
last week, there was the celebration in Port Elizabeth for the SA
National Defence Force. Many of us were quite impressed, not with
the event but with the people at the event, particularly when we
heard young black young women talking about their role in the
defence force. However, some of us may think that that is just an
isolated incident. Can you therefore help us, Minister, to say to
what extent has the question of the loss of resources in the defence
force attracted many more younger people, particularly younger black
South Africans to the defence force, because we know how great is
the need for careers or people in the communities that we are
serving. Thank you, Chair.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 145 of 376
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, hon
members I am sure are aware that we have a programme in the National
Defence Force called the Military Skills Development System, MSDS,
programme, which attracts a number of young people into the
different spheres of the defence force, which are your Navy, the Air
Force, South African Military Health Services, SAMHS, and the Army.
What used to happen is that we trained those young people for two
years and allowed them to leave the SA National Defence Force
afterwards.
My view was that, what you have done is that you have invested in
these young people and exposed them to the military doctrine of your
country, and not only that, but you have actually given them some of
the most sophisticated skills which are needed by the criminal
syndicates out there. Therefore, we took a decision that from now
onwards we should bring in a limited number every year so that we
make sure that at the end of their training, after two years, you
can integrate or absorb them into the SA National Defence Force so
that you don‘t lose the skills. Of course, you choose the best. I
cannot say or guarantee that they will all remain. Obviously, at
times there are some mistakes which we commit in the course of
recruiting some of these young people.
Yes, Chairperson, we have many brilliant young people who are coming
into the SA National Defence Force. Part of that is caused by the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 146 of 376
fact that we have a programme of career exhibitions, which we run at
schools and universities with the intention of attracting some of
the best, brilliant young people to come into the SANDF.
As I am talking now, for instance, a group which was there in 2012
and 2013 finished in 2012. We sent that group to Cuba and a number
of them were from the Air Force and the SA Military Health Services.
They are doing extremely well and are doing their second year in
medicine. We know that when they come back they will come back into
the SA National Defence Force as doctors, researchers and scientist.
Equally, we are sending out some of them to train as engineers
because there has been a shortage of engineers for a long time in
the country, much as we have our own engineers in the SA National
Defence Force. You will be aware that we have just cancelled a
contract which was open-ended, which started well in the 70‘s in the
defence force where people were repairing our things and doing
everything but were not transferring the skills to the young people
who were coming into the defence force. Therefore, we cancelled the
contract and said, let us get young people to go out and train and
leave a small number of people to then transfer skills to our
younger people.
Therefore, yes, the Defence Review talks to the issue as well.
Milestone 1 of the Defence Review actually talks to the rejuvenation
of the SA National Defence Force. The only way of doing that,
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 147 of 376
obviously, is to then attract some of the best young people to join
the defence force and indeed they are coming in large numbers.
Therefore, what we saw in Port Elizabeth is what we witnessed as
well in Potchefstroom last year, and two years ago we saw it in
Bloemfontein. Young people are interested in coming into the SA
National Defence Force. The problem is that we also have our own
limitations, we can‘t absorb everybody. Therefore, the idea of
rotating and going around to the different provinces, Chair, is
precisely to say young people here are opportunities, take advantage
of these opportunities which we are bringing to you. I am sure we
are going to see a number of young people coming from the Eastern
Cape in the same way that we saw when we were in Potchefstroom,
coming in and applying to the defence force.
Just the last thing, Chair, is that we are also running programmes
of assisting grade 11s and grade 12s, for instance, who are doing
maths and science, helped by our own members of the SA National
Defence Force. The idea is not just to help but also to identify
some of the best amongst those young people so that as they write
their matric, we already know that we have this one and that one.
This is what apartheid used to do actually and these are some of the
things which we did not do. They used to identify their own children
at primary level. Already, a child is monitored and they know how
the child is performing. They already have plans in the future about
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 148 of 376
how they are going to use that child. We are saying that we are
going to identify them at high school level because we need them and
we want to go for the best in maths and science. Of course, it does
not mean that we do not have room for young people who have not done
well in maths and science because there are many other areas in the
defence force which require their skills. Thank you.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Minister, confidently, your response to the
question was, no, we don‘t lose skills. Many a time there are
institutions that have skills retention strategies in place.
However, from time to time you see them losing, hardly now at lunch
time, we had a meeting of the select committee. One of the concerns
that was raised by the mayor who appeared before the committee was
their challenge in KwaZulu-Natal in one of the district
municipalities with regard to retention of skills. I just want to
check, hon Minister, from your side, what is it that you are doing
so differently from other institutions that make you succeed in
terms of skills retention? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, I am
saying, yes, there has been that problem in the past. However, we
have now something which is called the Military Exists Mechanism,
Mem. When a person feels that he or she has reached the ceiling in
the SA National Defence Force and thinks that there is not more he
or she can contribute and even in terms of promotions there is no
way that he or she could get another promotion, what then happens is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 149 of 376
that a process of consultation and engagement takes place between
the person concerned and his or her superior; and from there it is
elevated to the chief of the SA National Defence Force until it gets
to the heads of service, the Chief of the SA National Defence Force
until it gets to the Minister. The final approval is given by the
Minister, reason being that I also do not want that Mem process to
be used to push out good people from the system. At times those
things do happen, especially if you don‘t have a good relationship
with your superior, then he or she decides to offer you a Mem. We
have to make sure that the entire process is as transparent as
possible by the time it gets to the Minister so that when I go
through the story I must also be convinced that indeed this person
deserves to get a Mem.
In the same way, it is like the medical boarding because sometimes
you can receive a submission which says, please approve the X number
of people who want to go for medical boarding. You then have to go
in and look at each one of those cases so that people are not pushed
out of the system by their superiors - to protect your own.
Therefore, I am just saying, hon member, I am certainly not saying
to the hon members it never used to happen. However, each time when
a case comes you have to discuss, engage the person and say that
chief human resources, CHR, develop a retention strategy so that we
don‘t lose the best. People who leave should really leave because
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 150 of 376
they feel they have nothing more to add to the defence force, and in
that case we also then allow them to go. Thank you.
Ms L MATHYS: Minister, I want to talk about the R8 billion arms deal
submarines. What has happened? Does the Navy have adequate personnel
who are able to operate those submarines? Have they been adequately
trained? And are there sufficient personnel able to operate the
R8 billion arms deal submarine? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The question
is new because it is now leaving the terrain of whether or not we
are losing valuable skills. However, it then goes on to the
competency of the Navy, Minister. It is up to you whether you want
to tackle that question.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, thanks
for your protection. The hon member knows that this is a new
question. However, I can assure you that our ships, patrol vessels
and submarines are right now in the oceans. There is nothing parked
because there is not a skill. People may have left at some point but
it does not mean that people left and they left us with submarines
which are parked. There is no way in which we can do that when we
have such a long coast which requires patrol and protection.
Benefits for military veterans
23 FEBRUARY 2016
39.
PAGE: 151 of 376
Mr M T Mhlanga (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of
Defence and Military Veterans:
(1)
(a)
How
many
houses
have
been
built
for
military
veterans, (b) what is the cost of those houses, (c)
what
progress
has
been
made
regarding
the
medical
cover and (d) how much pension is given to military
veterans;
(2)
whether
the
same
pension
amount
is
paid
to
all
military veterans; if not, why not; if so, what are
the relevant details?
CO70E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chairperson,
during the financial year 2015-16, 126 houses were built for
military veterans. Two houses were built during the 2013-14
financial year which makes it a total of 128 houses to date. The
current cost of a military veteran‘s house is R188 000 which is
cofinanced by the Departments of Defence and Military Veterans and
Human Settlements. The Department of Defence and Military Veterans
provides for a top up funding of R78 000.
Can I just pause there and make a point? There is some difficulty
here. The difficulty is that when the Department of Defence Military
Veterans was established, there was no enabling legislation in place
to provide guidance to the establishment of the department. So,
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 152 of 376
finally, when that legislation was passed and agreed upon, we
started having problems with the National Treasury. The National
Treasury‘s view was that, if there is a government department which
deals with issues of housing, there is no reason why the Department
of Military Veterans should want to build its own houses for
military veterans.
The Department of Health‘s view was that as well; why should you
provide health services to military veterans when there is a
Department of Health which should provide for health support to
military veterans? Another view was that, why should military
veterans have a separate pension scheme when the National Treasury
through the Department of Social Development, has a pension scheme
for military veterans?
Therefore, this forced us to sign Memoranda of Understanding, MOUs
with the different government departments, which we did. The truth
of the matter on the ground, in the municipalities, is that a
military veteran is not a priority. A military veteran is at the
back of a queue. What some of the municipalities are doing now is to
agree on the number of houses to be built and then commit to give a
proportion of those houses to the military veterans.
We have not quite mastered that because if you look at the money
which has been given to the provinces for building of houses for
military veterans, it is way above the output. Let me just make an
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 153 of 376
example for instance with one province, just one. There is a
province which was given R11 million over a two-three year period to
build houses. So far on record, there is not a single house that has
been built for a military veteran.
However, the good thing is that we are beginning to see a number of
premiers taking an initiative. The premier of KwaZulu-Natal launched
a very good programme in Ngwavuma, two weeks ago which I attended.
He launched a project of support to military veterans. I read again
that comrade Premier David Makhura, in his state of the province
address again mentioned the issue of military veterans and the
Eastern Cape as well are committing themselves to military veterans.
Therefore, what that means is that we need this partnership and if
this partnership is just at the departmental level in the provinces
or in the municipalities, it is not going to work. You actually need
the premiers in the provinces to partner with us, to monitor
whether, in fact, what we have agreed to do is being done together
with their various municipalities. That is the challenge we have.
If you look at the money which has been transferred to the
Department of Human Settlements, to the different provinces because it is also not to the national but to the different
provinces - you will see that the output is not equal to what was
given to the provinces. It is a situation which we are handling
right now.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 154 of 376
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, let me send my greetings to the hon
Minister. I really appreciate the responses from the Minister.
Regarding the challenges that you are raising we fully agree with
you. We agree because during our oversight visit in one of the
provinces, one of the things we wanted to see as the Select
Committee on Human Settlements was the progress made in terms of
building houses for the military veterans. We realised that the
progress was very slow and we agree with you.
Given the challenges that you are raising, one would want to check
whether in terms of personnel in the department, do you now have
enough personnel appointed in that particular department and also is
land availability at municipal level, as you said that it should be
a last priority, not one of the challenges which are affecting the
implementation of the houses of military veterans?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much
hon member, you are correct. I must say that the Department of
Defence and Military Veterans has one of the biggest staff members
and I can safely say even outside of the organogram of the
department. However, at leadership level we are lacking and we are
now interviewing the deputy directors-general, DDGs on Friday and
next week we are interviewing a director-general, DG. So, hopefully
that will bring some semblance of stability but still, the fact that
we have no leadership does not mean - The issue is these matters
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 155 of 376
that we are talking about and we are depended on other government
departments doing these things for us. This is to a point where we
now agree that maybe it is about time that we further engage
National Treasury to say that these MOUs do not necessarily work
because we are right at the end of the queue.
By the way, some of the people are not necessarily all sympathetic
to the plight of our military veterans. So, we want to review this
matter with National Treasury. We know it is going to be difficult
but still we believe that we should give it a try.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Minister, I just want to check if the issues of
inclusivity are catered for in respect of the benefits. I would have
put it in another way but I would be ruled out of order. I think it
is safer that way. The interesting part of your response is that you
have also spoken about the launch of the programme in Umkhanyakude
District Municipality. Another launch also took place some years ago
by Premier Ndebele in Ladysmith. Maybe there should be continuity
instead of this one coming and starting something new, but I am not
on that one. I am on the issue of inclusivity. If it cannot be
spoken about here, I will be glad to be advised on where it can be
sorted out. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I do not know what
inclusivity means but what I do know is that in the data base of the
Department of Defence and Military Veterans you have both the former
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 156 of 376
statutory forces and the former non-statutory forces. Obviously, the
people who require the benefits which we are rolling out in the main
are people from the non-statutory forces. But not only that, we have
also discovered that there are those who came from the TBVC states
who are equally destitute because some of them did not make the
kinds of arrangements which they made for those who are coming from
the former non-statutory forces. I hope you understand what I am
saying.
Inclusivity is like that and it does not matter which body we have
appointed, and whether you talk the current turnaround which I have
put in place in the Department of Defence and Military Veterans to
fast-track the rolling-out of benefits. You will see that it
consists of different the groupings of military veterans. If you go
to the advisory council, you will find that in the council all of
the groupings are represented. The same thing applies to the appeals
body. So, there is not even a single structure in the Department of
Defence and Military Veterans which is not represented.
That equally applies to the staff at the Department Defence of
Military Veterans itself. It is well inclusive. If you have some
reservations about the answer that I have given, you can whisper to
me at some point about what exactly you are referring to. I am
certain know that from the non-statutory forces you have the MK
Military Veterans Association, MKMVA, Azanian People‘s Liberation
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 157 of 376
Army, Apla, and Azanian Liberation Army, Azanla. So, I think we have
done our best.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Minister, my question is on the very matter that
you have explained that the system is inclusive but in practice that
is not the case. We have got several cases in our constituencies
that we are dealing with. I will site one of them in Tigane in Dr
Kenneth Kaunda District Municipality where we have military veterans
who are on the list of beneficiaries. I am not sure if you use
beneficiaries in your own terms. These military veterans were not MK
members but Apla force members and are being denied houses on the
basis of their being Apla members and not MK veterans. So, I want to
check with you whether you are really sure that what is happening on
the ground regarding this project is exactly what you are saying
about inclusiveness. Some of us are more on the ground than on the
paper reports. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I can assure you that
I am very much on the ground and that is why I am here. If I was not
on the ground; did not have my feet firmly on the ground, I would
not be here. [Laughter.] I am so firm, it is not funny. On the issue
of military veterans in Tigane in Dr Kenneth Kaunda Municipality, I
do not know where that village is. I would welcome hon member, it is
just ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order, hon
members ...
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 158 of 376
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Kwenzeka ntoni ngoku
apha? [What is happening now here?]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order, hon
members!
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Kha nimeni kaloku.
[Please wait.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
am trying to remember Tigane‘s western name because other people
know it. I am not sure whether it is around Wolmaransstad? Oh,
Hartbeesfontein?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Tigane. It was Hartbeesfontein, and it is now called
Tigane. You must know ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The matter
Minister that I am addressing is that all of us must remember that
we do not all come from the same provinces; we do not speak the same
languages; and we are not all exposed to the other names of all our
towns. I might speak about Kgobadi – somebody knows the village in a
different name because it has two names. So, please bear with us.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 159 of 376
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much
comrade – hon Chairperson, you are correct I do not have information
about what is happening in Tigane and I will be very happy if you
can write me a note or you can come to the office and give me more
information so that we can follow up on some of the matters. What I
would like to say to you is that, when we submit a list to the
Department of Human Settlements, the lists do not say that this is
an MK, Apla or Azanla person. What the list does is to reflect all
military veterans in that particular area who are destitute and in
need of houses.
I should also say that, the truth of the matter and you know it, you
will also find that the numbers of the MKMVA members is way higher
than that of some of the former non-statutory forces and that is
obvious. We rely on the database given to us – remember when the
department started, the database came from those organisations. The
highest numbers of military veterans you will find in any database
and in any province, you will find that MKMVA will have the highest
numbers. But it does not mean that when we submit lists to the
Department of Human Settlements, we then insist that it should be
MKMVA members only who receive priority attention. It is about all
military veterans. Thank you.
Investment to African Capacity for Immediate Response to Crises
23 FEBRUARY 2016
58.
PAGE: 160 of 376
Dr Y C Vawda (Mpumalanga: EFF) asked the Minister of Defence
and Military Veterans:
What is the level of financial investment South Africa has
made
to
the
African
Capacity
for
Immediate
Response
Crises force?
to
CO92E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, our
response is that the African Capacity for Immediate Response to
Crises, ACIRC, has never been funded as a separate project from the
rest of what is happening in the SA National Defence Force. I think
it is very important for me to mention that. However, what we have
already spent on ACIRC, by way of subsistence and travel allowances,
vehicles and exercises, is plus-minus R18 million. It is important
for you to understand that there is no money which was ring-fenced
for ACIRC, per se.
So, if you talk about goods and services or whatever is within
ACIRC, money budgeted for goods and services would be spend. If you
talk about subsistence and travel allowance, S&T, for a group which
is attending a seminar or a workshop on ACIRC, that money would come
from subsistence and travel allowance which all other members of the
SA National Defence Force receive.
Can I also remind hon members that ACIRC was established by
volunteering nations and it is by nature an interim structure. It
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 161 of 376
will remain an interim structure until such time the African
continent is confident that it has its standby force, that is, an
African Union standby force.
So, obviously, for as long as we do not have that, we will continue
to have ACIRC. Therefore it becomes very difficult to have a
separate budget for ACIRC, a structure which is for an interim
period and which we do not know by whom and when is it going to be
dissolved. I think it is a matter which we need to take into
consideration.
But, of course, we have done a lot of personnel training. We have
also done a lot of Command Post Exercises as well as maintenance and
repair of our equipment. Getting to this matter of maintenance and
repair of our equipment, I think we probably would have spend more
than this R18 million had it not been for the Thusano Project which
is run jointly by ourselves and the Cubans. Because of the
challenges we had in the SA National Defence Force – these include
challenges of vehicles which are dilapidated and that are being
disposed of, etc - we simply went to Cuba, got some mechanics and
engineers and brought them over. And as a result of that project we
have saved South Africa a lot of money. Where a vehicle in the
private sector would have cost us R1,3 million to R1,5 million to
repair, we are now spending plus-minus R78 000 or even R200 000 per
vehicle. So, if we had not done that we would probably be talking
about a huge amount of money which we would be spending on
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 162 of 376
maintenance and repair. So, ACIRC does not have a separate budget
but we have spent plus-minus R18 million. Thank you.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair to the hon Minister, my follow-up question
is: What criteria will the South African government be using to
decide which conflict situations we will be intervening in and to
what extent we will be intervening? Do we have criteria or will it
be decided by the African Union or by the organisation itself to
dictate to us as to which conflict situations to intervene in?
I am thinking particularly, hon Minister, of the situation in Kenya,
when Kenya chose to intervene in Somalia and as a result of that
they have invited the conflict situation back into their own
country. This is something I am sure everybody will agree with me,
that we do not want this, especially in the light of the fact that
our borders are extremely porous. And we are seeing that even our
Department of State Security are having their offices compromised in
a great way with the recent breakages and so on.
So, in light of
this: What criteria will we be using to decide? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chairperson, in
all areas where the South African troops are deployed, they are
deployed together with other forces under the auspices of the
African Union or the United Nations Security Council. If you look at
the Democratic Republic of Congo, you will know that we have troops
who are currently deployed there. They are deployed under the United
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 163 of 376
Nations Stabilisation Mission in the Congo, Monusco which is the UN
mission. And congratulations that, we also, as South Africa have Lt
Gen Mgwebi, one our best and well-experienced generals in the SA
Force, who is now commanding that force.
In Sudan, we are there as well to serve as the peace-keeping forces.
There also we are deployed under the auspices of the United Nations.
So, we, as South Africa, do not determine on our own where we want
to go or where we want to be deployed. But, of course, maybe your
mind will take you back to the Central African Republic; much as we
are part of the multilateral institutions, we also have bilaterals
with other countries. With regards to the Central African Republic,
we had a bilateral agreement which required us as South Africa to go
into the Central African Republic and assist them to train their
soldiers. Twenty eight of our instructors were based in the Central
African Republic. So, that was a bilateral agreement and that is the
reason why we were in the Central African Republic. Otherwise the
rest of the deployments are taken by the heads of state at a
multilateral level. It is never a matter of a country just waking up
and moving its forces for deployment. Thank you.
Closing of air force training facilities
5.
Mr M Chetty (KwaZulu-Natal: DA) asked the Minister of Defence
and Military Veterans:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 164 of 376
Whether her department is planning to close down the air
force training facilities around the country; if not, what
is
the
position
in
this
regard;
if
so,
what
are
relevant details.
the
CO35E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, there is
no intention by the Ministry of Defence to close down any of the SA
Air Force training facilities none whatsoever. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, I am delighted to
hear those news, however, our country has the second oldest air
force in the world. It has a proud history of training some of the
finest pilots on the planet and has beyond any doubt some of the
finest trainers in the world. Why then is it that we are sending our
pilots to be trained in Russia and Cuba instead of the Russians and
Cubans sending their pilots here to be trained? Has the department
lost so much faith in our own military trainers that we entrust our
soldiers to be trained by other nations whose air forces have in the
past been far inferior to ours. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I am not sure about
that last part regarding how inferior they are. However, what I do
know is that we have agreements with different countries. For
instance, Ethiopia has one of the best and well organised air force
and good flying schools. It could be that soon we may sign a
memorandum of understanding with them and say that we want them to
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 165 of 376
train our pilots. The fact that we are not closing some of these
centres here in South Africa should not be that we cannot send our
children out to go and train. If you think that the training there
is inferior then I would refute that. I disagree with you. There is
no training which is inferior. If anything, what we are trying to do
now is to do a mass training of our young people. Even the pilots
that you are talking about—how many of them are black? We have a
problem. If I may say this, one of the challenges we have is that
sometimes these young people train and they run short of flying
hours before they can get their wing. Now you are not going to be
able to give them those flying hours because there are no aircrafts.
When you say that there are no aircrafts people will say why don‘t
you buy them? When you buy them then they say, oh you are going to
spend money on aircrafts. So, you are damned if you do and damned if
you don‘t. [Interjections.] You know what; you may howl there and
say that you do not have capacity. I will tell you that some of the
aircrafts were taken by some of the people who left the air force
and now they belong to them in their museum. I am telling you. So,
sometimes when we talk about ... [Interjections] ... – No, wait a
minute. Sometimes when you talk about corruption here, actually it
started ages ago because some of the people stole the assets of the
people and left with them. [Interjections.]
When we talk about shortage it has to do with the fact that some of
the assets were stolen and when we do something about it then you
start screaming that we are spending money on matters which should
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 166 of 376
not be a priority. We are trying to do that but you are the first
ones to scream and you are all over the papers and you even
speculate about the amount of money which we are going to pay and it
is not true. I think that as South Africans we must be honest.
Chairperson, I always insists that if there is any area or anything
which needs to bring South Africans together then it is the SA
National Defence Force because it is not an entity to protect me, to
protect him or to protect you. It is an entity which protects the
sovereignty and integrity of the Republic of South Africa. South
Africans can go to sleep peacefully knowing that there are men and
women who are ready to lay their lives on the line for this country.
So, when we sometimes scream about these things we should take that
into consideration. Thank you.
Ms L MATHYS: House Chair, Minister, we must bring back our defence
equipment just like we want our land back; we must get and get our
equipment back. I mean, we can‘t have things that are just stolen
and you come here and tell us that they were stolen by the apartheid
government and we cannot get our staff back it shows that we are not
being efficient as a government. I am not saying that we must go and
buy but if people stole our equipment then we must go and get it
back just as we want our land back, we must also go and get our
defence. The EFF will definitely support getting our defence
equipment back. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 167 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): She was just giving a
comment. That was not a question, hon Minister.
Implementation of Defence Review 2014
50.
Mr L P M Nzimande (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of
Defence and Military Veterans:
(a)
What
progress
implementation
of
2014
what
and
(b)
the
has
been
SA
National
challenges
were
made
regarding
Defence
Force
experienced
the
Review
in
regard?
this
CO81E
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, we will now
proceed to question 50, asked by hon Nzimande who is not in the
House. Hon Mohapi, we are now on question 50. Are you going to be
responsible for question 50? Allow the Minister to respond then you
will come up with the supplementary question. Hon Minister over to
you. [Interjections.] Hon Minister please sit, hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, a o na le kitsiso ya gore Rre Mohapi o
tla tsaya boikarabelo ka potso e Tona a e arabang? [Hon Chair, do
you have a notice that Mr Mohapi will be responsible for the
question that the Minister is responding to?]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 168 of 376
Because you just ask him, it means you do not have it there. It
means there was no arrangement whatsoever.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me check the notes I have with me
hon member. My apology, I do not have it with me. I cannot lie to
the hon members, these ones that I have do not have it. Ma‘am, that
one will then fall off because we do not have a person responsible
for it. Unless if the Minister wants to give the House information
with regard to this question. Hon members I am putting this to the
hon Minister, it is up to her if she will be able to give the House
information. But anyhow if the House wishes that we leave the
question then we can continue. Ma‘am, that was the last question. I
think we need to appreciate the time you took to be with us and all
the best for the rest of the day. Thank you. Hon members let us
proceed. Why are you on your feet hon Khawula?
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Nzimande is my colleague from
KZN, I am offering myself to stand on his behalf. We cannot have his
question not getting answered while I am here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you hon Khawula, you should have
arranged that with the Chief Whip or with the Table of the
Chairperson. Let us proceed to question 17 asked by hon Engelbrecht
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 169 of 376
to the Minister of Home Affairs, and Welcome Minister.
[Interjections.] Hon Essack.
Mr F ESSACK: I do not think it is parliamentary for hon Khawula to
offer his personal services. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): I have ruled on that one hon Essack.
[Laughter.] Honourable Minister continue.
Visits to Home Affairs offices
17.
Ms B A Engelbrecht (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
What
plans
Affairs
are
offices
in
a
place
more
to
make
pleasant
the
visits
experience
as
to
Home
citizens
must on a daily basis brave long queues to comply with
their legal obligations?
CO47E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you Chair and hon members. The
Department of Home Affairs recently launched a Moetapele Initiative
which aims at improving its image and quality of service to our
clients.
Front offices are refurbished with the roll-out of the new of the
new modernisation process, inclusive of the refurbishment process is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 170 of 376
new signage, terminal sitting and an electronic queue management
system. All these ecstatic and system enhancements were developed to
improve process efficiency and the client experience in our front
offices.
In addition to the above, new process floor were developed to
streamline and reduce queuing at the front offices, with floorwalkers continuously monitoring and assisting queuing clients. To
improve the overall client experience at the department‘s offices,
the following has being implemented: a culture of the client comes
first and a professional incatiar services inculcated amongst the
staff at formal meetings, as well as in formal discussions.
Office managers or client service managers are required to address
queues at opening times and prioritise the elderly, mothers with
babies and school children in school uniforms. Once these client
categories have been allowed access, other clients are accommodated
accordingly and directed to the correct counter and work stations.
Applicants that do not meet requirements are advice accordingly. In
the new office lay-out specifications for office manager‘s and
supervisor‘s offices are moved to the front office area in order to
conduct spot checks and regular interval and to have a better view
of process flows. Where possible, offices uses express counters if
available to assist the elderly, disabled clients and mothers with
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 171 of 376
new borns to avoid unnecessary queuing outside and/or inside the
office.
In areas where there are no restrictions of metropolitan or district
by-laws, the department erect shades or shelters so clients can
queue under reseasonable human conditions. To prevent an over flow
of applicants inside the service area floor walkers were reintroduced to manage and enforce queues
interactions by queue
management floor walkers with clients helps assisting applicants
with queries and for guidance and information, while waiting in the
queues and clients are also advised on the system down times when
experiencing system challenges. And clients are informed to avoid
queuing for long periods. The information desk is also utilised to
ensure that the clients are provided with requisite information
before they follow the queue.
Dedicated counters have been created where possible to assist
clients not having to queue all together. Information posters are
available to allow clients to contact the management, should any
issues arise at the front office. Photos of managers and supervisors
with contact numbers are placed at the public areas for clients to
call if they experience challenges.
Each time, each office has an appointed complaints or compliments
resolution officer to deal with queries complaints and compliments.
In this regard there are also complaints registers or compliments
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 172 of 376
registers and/ or suggestion boxes for feedback on improvement of
services. Over and above the aforementioned interventions the
following will also be instituted. Stakeholders are also used to
educate communities with regard to the services offered by the
Department to prevent clients from queuing to only ask questions
which delays clients who wish to apply for services.
In an attempt to increase access points for services rendered, the
Department has launched service points at various banking
institutions within the central business districts of Johannesburg
and Pretoria. Services for birth registration for the age 0-30 days
have being provided at various state owned and private hospitals or
clinics throughout the provinces.
Appointments are made with school principals for learners to apply
for smart ID Cards and are assisted on arrival at the offices. Smart
ID Cards processes are fast and reduce waiting times. Sms services
assist clients with enquiring on progress of their applications,
thus reducing queues. Senior citizens, pregnant women, mothers
carrying babies and people living with disabilities are being
prioritised for services.
Constant dissemination of information to clients, regarding work
stations, down time and bottlenecks of any incident that may occur.
The Department introduced new working hours in March 2015 where
large and medium offices open on Saturdays and small offices open
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 173 of 376
last Saturday of the month in order to fulfil the needs of the
citizens.
It must be emphasised however, that the demand for services, mainly
smart ID Cards and passport applications has increased resulting in
offices experiencing high volumes of clients. It must be noted that
the number of counters in the current office structures receiving
clients remain the same do to special constraints. Yet the demand
for smart ID Cards and passport services has increased. The demand
for Home Affairs services are heightened and long queues are
therefore prevalent in some of our offices, especially during
holidays and thus remain inevitable. Thank you.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chairperson, thank you and Minister, thank
very much for that very encouraging explanation of some other planet
that we will find all these wonderful services, because certainly
everything you mentioned doesn‘t exist in Pretoria and in Cape Town.
Where a building that was renovated and refurbished in 2008 and
reopened in 2011, still remains over crowded with little space to
queue inside and very little space to complete applications. A
Department of Home affair is a national competency and yet we
experience tales of missing paper work and misplaced official
documents which is a great concern for the public.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 174 of 376
In spite of that wonderful eulogy that we were given, we would like
to know Minister, what are you doing to alleviate this problem, when
clearly there are still very many infrastructure problems which are
impacting poor household substantially in terms of their finances.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson.
As the hon member probably heard during my extensive response, we
are experiencing challenges at some of our offices. You will
remember that in terms of the modernisation programme only 178
offices by the end of this financial year will have been converted
to live capture and the constraint really is resources. This means
that the majority or many South Africans are now flocking to these
178 offices to apply for their smart ID Cards and passport which
then increases volumes at these offices and create some of the
challenges which the hon member is talking about. But the rate of
missing documents at the Department of Home Affairs has drastically
reduced as a result of the introduction of the live capture system
and this has resulted in many South Africans who are applying for
the smart ID Cards, because the applications for the smart ID Cards
are no longer paper based.
They are captured live through the electronic system and the
application is therefore deposited at the government printing works
for the printing of either the smart ID Card or the passport
electronically. Which means there is no paper work, there is no
paper trail, there is no document that goes missing along the way
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 175 of 376
and that is why all those who are applying for these documents are
able to receive them back within 7 days of application and in many
instances particularly of late within one or two days of applying.
The improvements are continuing to take place at the Department. We
are paying great attention to the improvements of the systems in the
Department and one of the innovative ways that we are introducing
now is the e-channel service where we are partnering with the banks
to ensure that we can expand the Department‘s footprint to be able
to reach out to a many people as possible including those in the
areas where you may not have the physical infrastructure of the
Department of Home Affairs. So many of these challenges that the hon
member is referring to are being addressed both currently as well as
in terms of our future plans. Thank you.
Mr E MAKUE: Thank you hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I also live in
Gauteng like the person who raised the original question. I do find
that people in my constituency which is Sophiatown speaks highly of
the improvement in services that they are experiencing in Bree
Street. I also know that the office of the Department of Home
Affairs at the Maponya Mall is commended for the excellent services
that is rendering.
I have had a personal experience where a priest had his passport
expiring and he realised it too late and he had to travel in three
days and then approached me as a Member of Parliament to say do you
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 176 of 376
know anybody in Home Affairs that could help. My call was able to
get that priest a passport on time, but that was a privilege that I
now want to raise with the Minister as a question. How do ordinary
citizens who are experiencing difficulties with the processing of
the Home Affairs documents take up the issue with the Department of
Home Affairs? And I am raising it, because in Bree street there
photos up of the leadership with their phone numbers and they can be
called. I don‘t know whether that is the policy of the Department,
that people who are experiencing difficulties can escalate their
difficulties? Thank you?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson.
As we have indicated in the response, in many of our offices we have
the enquiries desk right at the office when you enter where you can
be provided with assistance regarding the service that you come to
apply for. We are also moving the offices of the supervisors towards
the front of the offices, towards the entrance, so that the office
managers are accessible to the public. We have posters with the
contact details of the top officials of the Department. We started
that process in 2009 so that members of the public that includes the
cell number of the Director General, all the Deputy Directors
General. They are accessible by cell phone to members of the public
when they call them and many of the queries are resolved.
In addition to that the Minister‘s social networks are available to
members of the public. We solve problems everyday to members of the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 177 of 376
public who require assistance of one sort or the other, By March, we
should introduce a new contact service for our clients which is
going to replace the current call centre and ensure that we
introduce this contact centre to run on top of the systems of the
Department to make people‘s queries resolvable easily, because
presently in many instances members of the public when they call the
call centres, they are unable to receive a response timeously to
their queries. That will assist them to get their queries resolved
quickly. But the new contact service is going to ensure that when
you call and enquire about your application, the person responding
to you will be able to tell you exactly whre your application is and
be able to assist you to expedite your application. As it is the
Department is continuing to improve its services to ensure that its
top management is accessible including provincial managers.
I have to deal with a number of instances where members of the
public complain about some of the managers that are not accessible
and we have ensured that is addressed. That will ensure that in
future people no longer have to rely on their contacts at high
places to be able to resolve their queries. I want to assure hon
members that we have got a number of very efficient centres of
excellence across the country that will include Randburg office. It
will include even the Pretoria office. It will include Edenvale
office. It will include a number of offices across the country,
where members of the public don‘t have to rely on their contacts in
order to have their queries resolved, because the people who are
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 178 of 376
providing a service at those offices are able to resolve them
speedily and with great regard to the interest of the members of the
public. Thank you.
Ms L MATHYS: Thank you Chair. I want to suggest to the Minister that
we have some undercover operation to see really the monitoring and
evaluation of the centres and I am sure you will come back with a
different story. But I am going to argue on the point, I want to
speak about the land border post and I am sure you going to stay. I
am going to introduce a new question, because that falls under other
government department.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Please don‘t introduce the new question
on the room, Mom.
Ms L MATHYS: is not, because I am going to argue that the land
border will be considered also Home Affairs office, because that is
what is happening. They are in appalling state, people queue outside
in the heat for hours and you can go to every land border post and
there is no improvement that I have seen over the years. It speaks
to our culture of not looking after our poor people. It is mainly
our poor people that use these land border post. Our old ladies
stand there in the sun for long hours. I would like to know what the
Minister is doing in regard to that. Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 179 of 376
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson.
The undercover operation that is being suggested by the hon member
would actually confirms exactly the responses which I have provided.
The response which we have provided has been both extensive and very
candid about both the achievement that we are making as well as the
challenges which we are confronting and how we are addressing those
challenges and so there is nothing new. In actual fact, even the
surveys done by the public service itself have proven over the last
2 years that Home Affairs is one of the most improved departments in
government in terms of the service that it provides. We have won
innovation awards both at the centre for public service innovation
as well as at the Information Technology, IT, awards that are
conducted by State Information Technology Agency, SITA.
The Department of Home Affairs is making the necessary progress that
we are talking about. Quite honestly we are not satisfied ourselves
with the progress that we are making and that is why we continue to
improve our services amongst others through the modernisation
programme, introducing the e-channel service that is going to expand
our footprint utilising the resources of private sector in order to
be able to provide and even more efficient service to members of the
public. We are converting our mobile units to ensure that they are
live capture compliant so that we can provide service beyond our
current physical infrastructure to reach out to people beyond our
sites of service at the moment.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 180 of 376
Now coming to the land ports of entry, if the hon member would
remember in 2015 at the budget vote, we indicated that one of the
top five priorities of the Department over the next 5 years is the
radical overhaul of the physical and system infrastructure of our
port of entry. We have appointed the Transaction Advisor and I will
be meeting with him soon. He has met with the Director General so
that we can work out on a complete plan to overhaul the physical
infrastructure of the six commercial land ports of entry.
The issue that the hon member is talking about are issues that are
well known to us and are issues that we are taking action to address
and over time we should present far more improved land ports of
entry. It‘s not only poor people that are exposed to this challenge,
is everybody who uses our land ports of entry. The fact of the
matter which the hon member wouldn‘t know , because she is in a
hurry to pander , to play to the gallery is that the people who are
utilising our land ports of entry has increased quite drastically.
In particular if you look at Beitbridge, Maseru Bridge, Ficksburg
Bridge and others.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, hon Minister. Order!
There is a member. Hon member, how can we help you?
Dr Y C VAWDA: POINT OF ORDER: Thank you Chair. I am standing on a
point of order. I think is unparliamentary of the hon Minister to
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 181 of 376
indicate that the hon member is playing to a gallery. I don‘t think
that‘s parliamentary. I think he must withdraw that.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, hon Minister. Thank you very
much. Hon Dlamini, can you please take your seat, mom. But we did
not respond to hon Vawda‘s point of order. [Interjections.] Hon
Vawda is still waiting for the response. So, we cannot respond to
the two orders at the same time. Hon member Vawda, thank you for
what you have raised, but that is not a point of order. You are not
hon Vawda. I am still addressing hon Vawda, hon Mokwele. That is a
figure of speech hon Vawda. Continue hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Chair. Sir
Wiston Churchill once said some people idea free speech…
Ms N P MOKGOSI: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, please take
your seat, yes hon Dlamini. Other hon members will then take their
seats now. [Interjections.]Let me hear if we are not going to repeat
the same thing. [Interjections.] But we cannot talk about the same
order when we have ruled on it. [Interjections.] Yes but take you
seat, lets allow her first.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Inaudible
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 182 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale) Hon members take your seat. I
have recognised hon Dlamini now. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele,
please respect me. [Interjections.] Hon Dlamini, I hope you are not
going to ... let me listen to you first.
Ms L C DLAMINI: On a point of order: Allow me to speak hon Chair, in
fact the hon Minister was not supposed to respond to the follow up
question of hon Mathys because it is not related to the question at
hand. [Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Dlamini, thank you very
much for raising that concern. But I will ... hon Essack, you can‘t
do that. You cannot do that. You will wait for me to respond. Hon
Dlamini, the question was relevant and that is why the Minister did
not even complain. It‘s all about the visit at their offices. Thank
you very much for that. Can we continue hon members? Ok, hon
Mokwele. [Interjections.] You will be the third one.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke ne ke batla go itse gore fa o re
ntlha ya ga kgalemo ... [Chairperson, I would like to know that when
you say point of order ...]
Hon Wawda is not a point of order. Why are you saying that? I am
saying that because hon Minister refers to Hon Mathys as if she is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 183 of 376
appealing to the TV and all those things. [Interjections.] We have
got platforms where we appeal. We have our own media platforms where
we do our things. We don‘t have to come here and appeal to be on any
of your media ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Mohl Mokwele ... [Hon
Mokwele ...]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Jaanong re kopa gore e seka ya nna e kete ... [Now,
we ask that it must not appear as if ...]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): You can‘t do that hon
Mthimunye
Ms T J MOKWELE: This thing happens every time. When we want to stand
up and speak you always refer to us as if we are playing, we are not
playing. If we want to play we will go outside and play. We are here
to work and if hon Mathys ―o na le potso e a batlang go e botsa‖
Minister [has a question that she wants to ask] at her own right she
must stand up and ask the question. ―E seka ya nna‖ [It shouldn‘t be
like] as if when we stand up here as EFF members we appeal to the
gallery or we appeal to what.
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): O feditše, mohl Mokwele?
Re boletše ka taba yeo. Ga go na le motho yo a boletšego ka gore
batho ba tšwelela dithelebišeneng. Re boletše ka yona; re kgopela go
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 184 of 376
tšwela pele. Ka lebaka la gore ... mohl Mathys re mo dumeletše a
botšiša potšišo ya gagwe, gomme ga go na motho yo a rilego ga se
yona. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Are you done, hon Mokwele?
We have discussed the matter before. No one who said people are
being featured on television.
The matter has been discussed and
closed; allow us to continue. Because... we allowed hon Mathys to
ask a question , and no one disapproved of it.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon Mokwele. Ok, maybe
I should go back to hon Vawda, he rose on a point of order and I
made a ruling over it. So, if he is not satisfied with it he can
complain, he knows the procedure. He can write to the Table and
complain. Please allow us to continue, take your seat hon Vawda. Are
you rising on another point of order, another one? But then I will
give you a chance because hon Julius has to say something now. It
has been long since he requested to speak.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! hon Mokwele. Order!
hon Manopole. [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, the issue of figure of speech. I am
afraid that we are making rules as we go along and these rules will
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 185 of 376
be binding in this House. If you make a ruling on something, it will
be binding in this House. Now we see more and more our Table stuff
spinning the rules as we go along. I really don‘t appreciate it
because it will be binding in this House and it will have a bearing
on all of us. In the NA last week, the joint sitting, I had the same
case of figure of speech when I referred to a political dwarf and it
was ruled out of order by the Chairperson there, the Chairperson of
that House. So we must just make sure that we remain consistent in
our ruling because it will bind us. Other wise in two months time we
will have nothing to say here, nothing to say. Thank you
Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you for raising that
one hon Julius. We have ruled over the matter and I really want to
continue. Thank you. Let me allow the hon Vawda before you. I hope
we are not going to discuss the point of order that I have already
ruled.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, I accept that it is a figure of speech.
What I am saying is that the figure of speech by its very nature
insights emotions. And I think on those counts the hon Minister
himself knows that he used the figure of speech that he shouldn‘t be
using in this House. And he should do the honourable thing and
withdraw what he said hon Chair.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 186 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, you said you are
rising on a new point of order. We have already ruled over that one.
Dr Y C VAWDA: No, you have ruled out that it is a figure of speech
and now I am taking up the figure of speech. I am taking on the fact
that you have indicated that it is a figure of speech.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Well I was going to allow
you to say that but we have already ruled over that one. Allow us to
continue hon Vawda.
Dr Y C VAWDA: As chosen, an hon Minister yourself you should
understand, don‘t bring the House into disrepute. What we are doing
here is we are now beginning to compromise the dignity of the House.
Because we are we are being unnecessary, to make a remark like that
is totally unnecessary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Vawda will you please
not debate the ruling. Take your seat, let us continue. Hon Mokwele.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Inaudible
Ms T J MOKWELE: I don‘t want to, ok.
Re kopa ka boikokobetso gore go nne le kgololosego ya puo mo Ntlong
eno. Gonne fa o sa dire jalo Modulasetilo ... [We are kindly asking
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 187 of 376
for freedom of speech in this House. And failure to allow that
Chairperson ...]
You are doing it today to hon Vawda and hon Mathys and tomorrow it
will be done differently on another person. Let us be decisive on
the ruling. We are just saying to you Chair, please, the words that
the Minister used ... please, [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are protected, continue.
Mme T J MOKWELE: Ok, ke a leboga ―Chairperson‖ [Modulasetulo]. Ao
timile gape? Ok. Ke kopa gore mafoko ―a hon‖ [motlotlegi], ―your
majesty‖ [kgosi], ―Tona Ya Lefapha la Merero ya Selegae‖ [Home
Affairs Minister] a dirisitseng, a a gogele kwa morago ka gore
mafoko a o ga a re bui sentle. ―Figure of speech‘ [Sekapuo] se a se
dirisitseng ―to us‖ [mo go rona] ga se re tseye sentle Modulasetulo.
Re kopa gore rre a gogele mafoko a gagwe kwa morago re kgone go
tswelela ka lenaneo la letsatsi. Ke a ikopela tsweetswee.
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Ok, thank you Chairperson. Is my mic off again? Ok.
I would like your majesty, Minister of Home Affairs, to withdraw the
words he used, because he is not speaking well about us. He is using
figure of speech to refer to us and this does not sit well with us
Chairperson. We are asking that he withdraws so we can continue with
the business of the day. We are kindly pleading with you.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 188 of 376
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Ke go kwele, mohl Mokwele.
Ke dumela gore re boletše ka yona taba yeo. Ke dumela le gore mohl
Tona o a ekwa gomme a ka se sa e bušeletša. Re remile ka yona taba
yeo. Re ka se sa boelela go yona gantši ka gore ge re ka re re
boelela go yona, e tla ra gore ka mehla re tla re go rema ra
bušeletše ra remolla. Gomme, se sengwe se ... ke a bolela, o eme. Ke
sa bolela le ... [Tsenoganong.] ... mohl Mokwele, o eme wena. Ga ke
tsebe gore ... ke bolela le mohl Mokwele, wena o eme. [Tsenoganong.]
Ye nngwe ye e kgahlišago, mohl Mokwele, ke gore mohl Vawda o
kwešišitše gore lentšu lela ke sekapolelo. Bjale, mohl Tona, le se
sa le bušeletša, tate. A re tšweleng pele. (Translation of Sepedi
paragraphs follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): I heard you, hon Mokwele.
I believe that the matter is closed.
I also believe that hon
Minister‘s heard you loud and clear; he will not repeat that. We
have made a ruling against that.
We will not keep repeating
ourselves, otherwise we will always make a ruling and revisit it.
And another thing is ... I am speaking, and you are standing up. I
am talking to
... [Interjections.] ... hon Mokwele you are still
standing up. I do not know if ... I am talking to hon Mokwele, but
you are still standing up. [Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 189 of 376
One other interesting thing, hon Mokwele, is that hon Vawda has
understood that it was figurative. Hon Minister, please do not
repeating this, sir. Let us continue.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I was saying that the ...
[Interjections.]
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Mokwele, re boletše
ka taba ye; re fetile. Naa re ka tšwela pele, mohl Mokwele?
[Tšhwahlelo.] Ke ye mpsha? O emelela ka ye mpsha? [Tsenoganong.]
Aowa, ke nyaka go botšiša gore o emelela ka ye mpsha naa?
(Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, the matter is
closed; we have moved on. May we continue hon Mokwele?
[Interjections.] Is it something new? Are you going to raise a new
matter? [Interjections.] No, I would like to ask: are you rising on
a point of order?]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke ikokobeditse Modulasetulo, ke ikokobeditse, ke
kopa gore ... [I have humbled myself Chairperson, can you please
...]
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Mme Mokwele, ke go
kgopela gore o dule fase. Re ka se bolele ka selo se tee gantšintši.
Re remile; re feditše. Re fetile go yona. Ga re ngangišane ka yona,
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 190 of 376
ga go bjalo? Ge re remile ga re sa ngangišana. (Translation of
Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Hon Mme Mokwele, ke go
kgopela gore o dule fase. Re ka se bolele ka selo se tee gantšintši.
Re remile; re feditše. Re fetile go yona. Ga re ngangišane ka yona,
ga go bjalo? Once we have made a ruling we do not argue
furthermore.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ga ke ngangisane ka Modulasetulo, mme jaaka [Go se
utlwagale.] ... wa Ntlo e, ke na le maikarabelo, tšhono le tetla ya
go bua ke phuthologile mo Ntlong eno. Ke batla gore o dire ...
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not debating anything Chairperson, as
[Inaudible] of this House, I have a responsibility, opportunity and
the freedom of speech in this House. I want you to ...]
Hon member: [Inaudible.]
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Gore rre fa a tsenngwe mo rekotong fa a gogela
mafoko kwa morago. [Can it be placed on record when the member
withdraws his words?]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): O a bona, mme? [Right,
Madam?]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 191 of 376
Ms T J MOKWELE: A ke sireletsegile Modulasetilo? [Am I protected
Chairperson?]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Mme, re feditše ka taba ye.
[Madam, this matter is closed.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: A ke sireletsegile Modulasetulo? [Am I protected
Chairperson?]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Re boletše ka taba yeo; re
feditše. [This matter is closed.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ntshepise gore ke sireletsegile [Assure me that I am
protected.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Re feditše ka taba yeo.
[The matter is closed.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Re feditse Modulasetulo, mme fa ke sa kgotsofala
jaaka leloko la Ntlo ke na le tshwanelo ya gore ke eme ke go
bolelele gore ga ke a kgotsofala ... [Done Chairperson, however, I
am not pleased and believe I must alert you of my dissatisfaction.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): O be o swanetše go ba o
dutše fase ra tšwele pele. [You were supposed to have been seated so
that we continue.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 192 of 376
Jaanong ke kopa tsebe ya gago gore o ... [May you please listen to
me ..]
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Ke a go leboga.
[Tsenoganong.] E sware gona moo. Ga se o kgotsofale, ga go bjalo? Ke
boletše gore ge o sa kgotsofale, tšea pene le pampiri o ngwale. Gona
bjale rena re tšwele pele. Re remile; re feditše. (Translation of
Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): I thank you.
[Interjections.] Hold on a second.
If you have a grievance, put it
down on a piece of a paper for consideration, that way we can
proceed. We made a ruling.]
Hon Minister, please continue. She knows what she must do.
[Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, the point that I was making
is that the department is working on a plan to overhaul the physical
in systems infrastructure of our Land Ports of Entry. And one of the
things that we are going to be doing in order to improve the service
at the Land Ports of Entry is to roll out. Since we have rolled out
the biometric capture at Lanseria, King Shaka, Cape Town as well as
OR Tambo International Airports, we are going to start on a
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 193 of 376
programme now. Gradually, to roll it out at all our land pots and
entry so that eventually ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Ok hon Minister; let us ask
her for the last time to take the seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I don‘t have to be disrespectful Chair; I am not
talking to you. I will address you if I want to. I am addressing the
Chair, not you, please. Don‘t talk to me; I don‘t want you to talk
to me
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Order! Hon members, hon
Mokwele ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: Please I don‘t want you to talk to me. I don‘t want
to sit down.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale) Hon Mokwele ...
Mr E MAKUE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale) Order hon Makue, hon members
please take your seat [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: You must address him.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 194 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I addressed him and now he
is quiet, now I want to address you
Ms T J MOKWELE: You must also address him.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I did! I just did!
[Interjections.] You did not hear me because you are busy speaking.
Hon Mokwele, please take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon Ximbi,
please take your seat. [Interjections.] Now you are out of order,
hon Mokwele. No, you are out of order. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele,
that is what I was doing. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele ...
[Interjections.] Hon Molwele ... [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele ...
Mr B G NTHEBE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please, hon Nthebe, please
keep quiet. [Interjections.] Hon Nthebe, the hon member is
protected. [Interjections.] It is on record. Please keep quiet! Let
us continue, hon Minister. We have ruled on that one a long time
ago. [Interjections.] Oh, it is a new ... if it‘s a new one, please
continue.
Mme N P MOKGOSI: Mma o ntimile tšhono nako ele. Ke ne ke go kopile
ka tsweetswee gore o tle o ntemoge. O ruled gore motlotlegi Tona ga
a bua sentle mme ke ne ke kopa gore fela jaaka leloko lengwe le
lengwe mo Ntlong e, a tseye mafoko a gagwe a busitse kwa morago. A
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 195 of 376
eme fela a re ke tsaya mafoko a ka ke a busetsa kwa morago fela
jaaka rotlhe mo Ntlong e re dira fela jalo. E seke ya nna gore go
siame, mme mo nakong e e tlang o seke wa tlhola o bua jalo. Ke a
leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms N P MOKGOSI: You denied me the opportunity the last time. I had
kindly asked you to recognize me. You ruled that the hon Minister
did not speak well of us, therefore I would like just like any
member in this House, to withdraw what he said. To stand up and say
that he withdraws just like all of us do this in this House. It
cannot just be ok, ―next time‖ you must not say that. Thank you.]
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Agee, ke ye nngwe ya tšeo
re bego re ruma ka tšona gore re botše mohl Tona gore a se sa
bušeletša mantšu ao. Bjale, re feditše ka yona. Taba ya gore o ka
bowa wa e fetola, e ka se sa kgonega. Re kgopela gore mohl Tona a
tšwele pele. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): My point exactly! This is
one of the issues we addressed to close the matter. We asked hon
Minister not to repeat his words. The matter is closed. You cannot
entertain it any longer. Hon Minister, please go ahead.]
Hon Minister, continue.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 196 of 376
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I was still saying that we are going
to start a process of rolling out a biometric capture at Land Ports
of Entry on a gradual basis in order to improve the service there.
And ensure that travellers to our country and those who are leaving
our country are provided a quality service as it is currently
happening now at OR Tambo, Cape Town, King Shaka as well as the
Lanseria International Airports. Thank you hon Chair, but I must
also request Chair that if people ask us questions they must not
provoke us and expect us to keep quiet.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Minister please, we
have ruled over that matter. I was not expecting you to take us
back. [Interjections.] Hon members ... What is your point of order?
Dr Y C VAWDA: The hon Minister is indicating that we are provoking
him when it‘s the hon Minister who started the provocation in the
first place. Hon minister, if you have done the right thing and
withdrawn the insulting remarks that you made, we wouldn‘t have this
problem.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Can you address me hon
Vawda. Will you address me, you see now. Let‘s avoid this dialogue,
address me. [Interjections.] Order! Hon members.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Apologies hon Chair, I will address you. I will
address you hon Chair. The hon Minister is out of order, he is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 197 of 376
indicating that he has been provoked, when it really the hon
Minister who began the provocation. It was him who made the remark
about the hon Mathys which was totally out of order. He should have
done the hon thing especially as the Minister, he is bringing this
House into disrepute by his remarks that he has made.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Okay hon Vawda, but the hon
Minister did not mention any names, he did not mention anyone‘s
name. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Inaudible
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Dlamini now it is your
chance to ask your supplementary question.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I wanted to agree with the hon Minister
with the centers of excellence in the country. In my home province,
my home town, eMbombela the office of Home Affairs is doing
exceptionally well Minister I must say. I experienced that and my
family members who went there. [Interjections.] I went there hon
Chair to apply for my official passport and at the end of my
application, I asked for progress because I wanted to test the
system. I was told hon Chair that the application has been received,
the passport has been printed and it was waiting for delivery. It
was on Tuesday and on Thursday I had my passport on my hand. It also
happened with my smart ID card, I applied on Monday and on Thursday
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 198 of 376
I got it. As well as in White River, there are centres of
excellence. It is not a question, it is a recommendation hon Chair,
that of the system. I would like to recommend that they introduce
vernacular languages on the system that they use to call people to
come for assistance, because there are no vernacular languages in
that office and I think it is also happens in the other offices but
there are centres of excellence. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is your question hon
member?
Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson I made a comment, I said they must add
other languages.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Ok, I wanted to be clear
because I heard that it is a comment so I wanted it to be clear.
Thank you. We are now moving to question 36. Order! Hon members, hon
Dlamini and hon Mathys Order! Minister we are proceeding to question
36 which was asked by hon T Wana, over to you.
Foreign nationals in rural areas
36.
Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 199 of 376
Whether foreign nationals in the rural areas have permits;
if
not,
monitoring
why
not;
that
and
if
so,
(b)
(a)
what
how
are
his
the
department
further
is
relevant
details?
CO67E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Chair. Yes, the
Department of Home Affairs through its inspectorate unit does
regular inspections and monitoring in all areas of our country in
order to determine the status of persons in South Africa. The
inspectorate unit comprising of seven ...
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Sorry hon Minister, please take your
seat. Hon Wana is not in the House and I did not receive any note. I
saw her seated here but now she is not here. But let me read this
Rule to the hon members:
If a member does not rise when a question for oral reply is
standing in that member‘s name comes up for reply. A question
lapses unless the person who is replying to the question elects to
reply to the question or tables the reply but...
Listen hon members, if a member does not rise when a question for
oral reply is standing in that member‘s name comes up for reply, so
if ever the minister‘s got information to give to the House he can
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 200 of 376
do that. So, I am putting it you hon Minister and fortunately enough
the hon Wana is here. Continue.
OK, order! Order! Hon members, let me put this on record. Next time
I will have to ask the hon Minister whether he is ready even if the
member is not in the House.
If he is not ready then he will take his seat and then we continue.
But if the hon Minister is ready according to the Rules he will
respond to the question. Hon Minister, the hon member Wana is here
you can continue with your response.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chair. The question was
whether the department monitors foreign nationals in rural areas
have permits. The answer is yes. Through its inspectorate units, the
department does regular inspections and monitoring in all areas of
the country in order to determine the status of persons in South
Africa.
The inspectorate unit comprising of 785 officials functions to
ensure that all persons in South Africa are in the country on a
lawful basis. Thank you.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank you. Hon Wana, do you have a
supplementary question?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 201 of 376
Ms T WANA: Thank you, Chairperson and thank you minister about the
question. My follow up around the issue, I wanted to understand
whether you have any signal when a person‘s permit has expired. How
do you monitor that specific issue when a person exceeds the
duration of the permit for his stay in the country.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chair. We are not
able to know that a person‘s permit has expired until they present
themselves when they are exiting the country at the ports of entry.
To be more accurate the movement control system will indicate to us
that this person, who is now presenting himself or herself in order
to exit the country, on which date and time their permit expired. By
then we would have declared that person an undesirable person and
would have determined the length of time during which they will
remain under the undesirable persons‘ status before the lapsing of
that status.
Depending on how long they had overstayed the length of the
declaration of undesirable person‘s status will therefore be
determined. The only way that a person can have their declaration as
an undesirable person rescinded is when they write to the directorgeneral and present valid reasons as to why they overstayed. If they
were in hospital they would have to present medical records; if
there was another valid reason they will have to present those
records, but whilst they still inside the country we would not be
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 202 of 376
able to trace them and go up to them and say your permit has
expired.
We can only know through the movement control system when they are
exiting the country and they present themselves at the port of exit.
Thank you.
Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekile. Mhlonishwa
Ngqongqoshe, umbuzo obuzwe umhlonishwa uWana sengathi ubalulekile
kakhulu ikakhulukazi kulabo abahlala ezindaweni zasemakhaya
njengathi. Kodwa-ke engifuna ukukubuza la mhlonishwa ukuthi
kungaphuleki umthetho uphulwa abantu okufanele bagcine umthetho
ngenxa yokungazi, nanokuthi mhlambe uMnyango wenzani ukuze uxhumane
ikakhulukazi nezinduna, mhlawumbe namakhosi ezindaweni zasemakhaya.
Ikakhulukazi uma mhlawumbe kukhona umuntu ozobekwa anikezwe indawo
yokwakha. Ikuphi izinduna ezifanele zikuqaphele mayelana nabafowethu
laba abaqhamuka ngaphandle ukuthi basemthethweni yini noma abekho
emthethweni ngoba kuyenzeka kakhulu ezindaweni zasemakhaya
ikakhulukazi nalapho abakha khona izinto zamabhizinisi. Kodwa nje
nasebehlala nje ezindaweni zamakhosi baningi kodwa mhlawumbe umuntu
abuke nje kokunye ukuthi kazi kulandelekile yini imigomo efanele
ukuthi ufanele ingaba kuqinisekisiwe ukuthi u-Home Affairs unalo
ulwazi ngalowo muntu. Mhlawumbe ikuphi umhlonishwa angakusho
mayelana nezinto ezinjengalezo. Ngiyathokoza. (Translation of
isiZulu paragraph follows.)
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 203 of 376
[Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, the question asked by hon
Wana is very important especially with regard to the people who live
in the rural areas like us. However, what I want to ask here hon is
that the law must not be broken by law enforcement people due to
alack of knowledge, and also what is the department doing to engage
the Chief‘s right hand men and the Chiefs in the rural areas.
Especially when there is someone who is being allocated the land for
building. What are the Chief‘s right hand men supposed to look out
for with regard to immigrants to see if they are legal or not
because this is common in the rural areas and where they build for
their businesses. There are many who live in areas under the
jurisdiction of chief‘s and we cannot stop wondering if all the
procedures were followed because they must have confirmed with the
Department of Home Affairs if this person is here legally. What can
the Minister say has been done about such cases? Thank you.]
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Ok, thank you very much. Hon Mokwele,
The first one was hon Wana who was coming with a follow up
supplementary question. So you will be the fourth one. Or you are
withdrawing? OK, then we will take hon Essack as the last one.
Continue hon Minister.
UNGQONGQOSHE WOMNYANGO WEZASEKHAYA:
Ngiyabonga Sihlalo
ohloniphekile naselungwini elihloniphekile ngalombuzo. Umbuzo
obalulekile lona ngoba kubalulekile ukuthi abantu ikakhulukazi
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 204 of 376
mabezohlala noma bezobekwa ezindaweni ezisemakhaya kuqinisekiswe
noma ngabe kusezindaweni ezisemadolobheni ukuthi banawo amalungelo
namagunya okuthi babelapha ngaphakathi kwelizwe. Ziningi izindawo
lapho amakhosi, njengakoLimpopo nezinye izindawo lapho amakhansela
amele izigceme ekwazi ukuthi abe nohlu lwabantu abangabokufika
kulezo zindawo kanye nezincwadi nezinombolo zamagunya abo okuthi
babe lapha ngaphakathi ezweni. Lokho kuyaye kuselekelele nathi
singuMnyango ukuze sikwazi ukubona labo bantu abangenawo amagunya
okuthi babe ngaphakathi ezweni, ngicabanga ukuthi umhlonishwa
uKhawula umbuzo awubuzayo ubalulekile ngokuthi kumele sisebenzisane
namakhosi nezinhlaka zendabuko, ukuze kuqinisekiswe ukuthi abantu
abakhona ezindaweni ezahlukahlukene banamagunya afanelekile.
Yingakho uMnyango wasungula lolu hlelo olubizwa ngama-Stakeholder
Forums oselwakhiwe kuzwelonke olusebenzisana namahhovisi ethu kanye
nomasipala abehlukahlukene olwakhiwe ngoSomlomo bomasipala
abehlukahlukene ezweni ukwenza isiqiniseko sokuthi izinhlelo
zoMnyango ziyakwazi ukusatshalaliswa emphakathini, sisebenzisane
nezinhlaka ezahlukene zemiphakathi ukuze abantu bazi ukuthi yiziphi
izinhlelo eziqhutshwa nguMnyango. Osekufanele kwenziwe manje
ngokulandela uhlelo lwale-Stakeholder Forum, ukuthi sihlangane
namakhosi nezinhlaka zendabuko ukuze nabo sikwazi ukubahlelela
imihlangano yokucobelelana ngolwazi ukubafundisa ngemigomo yoMnyango
ezobalekelela ukuthi uma sebengamele imicimbi yezindawo ezisemakhaya
bayazi imigomo yoMnyango ukuze bakwazi ukusebenza ngaphakathi kwayo.
Into eyisizathu esimqoka eyenza ukuthi sisungule le-Stakeholder
Forums, kwakuyikhona ukuthi siqinisekise ukuthi abantu emphakathini
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 205 of 376
nabaholi abehlukahlukene bakwazi ukubambisana nathi ekufezekiseni
izinjongo zikahulumeni kanjalo nezoMnyango ukuze singathathi sibeke
emahlombe ethu umsebenzi omkhulu wokufezekisa lemigomo emiphakathini
zibe zikhona izinhlaka esingabambisana nazo ukuqinisekisa lo
msebenzi. Siyabonga kakhulu, mhlonishwa. (Translation of isiZulu
paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you hon Chairperson and thank
you hon member for this question. This is an important question
because it is important that, when people especially when they are
going to live or be placed in the rural areas, we must make sure,
even if it is in the urban areas, that they have permits and are
authorised to be in the country. There are many places where chiefs,
like in Limpopo and other areas where ward counsellors have the list
of immigrants in those areas and the letters together with their
permit numbers that allow them to be in the country. That usually
help us as the department to identify those who are in the country
illegally, I think the question asked by hon Khawula was about
working with the chiefs and the traditional structures, and to make
sure that people in different areas have legal rights. That is why
the department established the programme called the Stakeholder
Forums which has been established nationally and is working with our
offices and different municipalities in the country to make sure
that the department‘s programmes are spread in the community, and
that they work with different community structures so that people
can know which programmes are being conducted by the department.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 206 of 376
What needs to be done now in terms of this Stakeholder Forum, is to
meet with the chiefs and the traditional structures and conduct
workshops with them in order to teach them about the department‘s
principles that are going to help them when they are hosting the
events in the rural areas; they must know these principles that they
are going to work within. The main reason why these Stakeholder
Forums were established was to make sure that the communities and
different leaders can work with us in achieving government‘s
objectives as well as the department‘s so that we don‘t put this
heavy burden of achieving these objectives in our shoulders whereas
there are other structures we can work with in making sure that this
work is done. Thank you very much, hon.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Enkosi Mphathiswa wakhe wathi uPremier wokuqala
waseEastern Cape utata uRaymond Mhlaba akanguye umoya oyingcwele
akanakubakho kuzo zonke iindawo nawe ke andifuni ukuba sikwenze
umoya oyingcwele. Ngokwenyani ngokwenyani phaya emaphandleni
nakwezadolophu zasezilalini ezi inspector zakho azibonakali yilibale
le yeStakeholders Forum ayisebenzi kwa ukusebenza phaya. Ndiyacela
ke Mphathiswa khakulenze iphulo lakho ukhe uthumele iinspector phaya
ngaphandle, asilwi nabantakwethu aba phaya kodwa mababenazo iimpepha
zabo ndiyakucela ukhe ugxininise makhe ugxininise kwezi dolophu
zangaphandle zininzi izinto eziqhubekayo phayana kukho abawrongo
qhithi abafaka iidrugs ebantwaneni bethu ezilalini kungoko sikucela
ukuba ungenenelele ngaphandle. Nakwezidolophu zincinane ngaphandle
ezi zinto ziyenzeka apha ezidolophini ezinkulu kodwa mazingenzeki
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 207 of 376
phaya ngaphandle. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph
follows.)
[Mr L B GAEHLER: Thank you hon Minister. The first Premier of the
Eastern Cape once said, tata Raymond Mhlaba is not Holy Spirit, he
can‘t be found everywhere. So I also don‘t want us to make you Holy
Spirit. Really we do not see your inspectors in the rural areas and
rural towns, forget about the Stakeholders Forum it doesn‘t even
work there. Please hon Minister do this campaign and send inspectors
in the rural areas, we are not fighting with our brothers but they
must have permits. Please emphasise in the rural towns. There is a
lot that is happening there because there are those who are doing
wrong things like giving drugs to our children in the villages. That
is why we ask you to intervene in rural areas. Even in small towns
in the rural areas. Things that happen in big towns must not be done
in rural areas. Thank you.]
UNGQONGQOSHE WOMNYANGO WEZASEKHAYA: Siyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo
ohloniphekile kanjalo naselungwini elihloniphekile ngalo mbuzo
neziphakamiso elizibekayo. Iqiniso elimsulwa mhlonishwa ukuthi
njengoba sichazile, abahloli esinabo ezweni lonke bangama-785.
Ngonyaka odlule sithelwe chatha ngemadlana yokuthi sandise inani
labahloli, ukuze sikwazi ukusabalalisa umsebenzi abawenzayo ukuze
bafinyelele ezindaweni ezahlukahlukene. Nakuba kunjalo, nawo lo
chatha wabahloli esizoba nawo awuzukwazi ukufezekisa wonke umsebenzi
nezinselelo esibhekene nazo njengoMnyango, zokuthi bakwazi
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 208 of 376
ukufinyelela kuzo zonke izindawo, baxilonge izindawo ezahlukahlukene
ngokuthi abahleli kulezo zindawo banawo yini amaphepha afanelekile.
Kanti futhi kuyiqiniso ukuthi ama-Stakeholder Forum awasebenzi
ngokuzikhandla nangomdlandla kuzo zonke izindawo - awasimeme
ngendlela elinganayo – ziningi izindawo ngisho ezisemakhaya, lapho
asebenza khona ngokuzikhandla nokuzimisela. Ziningi futhi izindawo
la engafinyeleli khona. Ngakho-ke, siphezu komkhankaso wokwenza
isiqinisekiso sokuthi la ma-Stakeholder Forum asebenza ngendlela
efanelekile, yingakho ngonyaka odlule sakhe uMkhandlu kaZwelonke
wama-Stakeholder Forum okuyiwona ozobhekelela ukuthi kuzo zonke
izifundazwe, kuzo zonke izifunda, namadolobha amakhulu nomasipala
basemakhaya siyakwazi ukuthi sibe nama-Stakeholder Forum asebenzayo,
azokwazi ukuwenza lo msebenzi ngendlela efanekile yokulekelela
uMnyango, kanjalo nazokwazi ukwelekelela ukuthi abahloli bethu
bafinyelele ezindaweni zonke. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu
paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chairperson and
the hon member, for this question and the suggestions made. The
truth is, as we have explained, that we only have 785 inspectors in
the country. Last year we were allocated a bit more so that we can
increase the number of inspectors, so that we can be able to expand
the work they do in different areas. Nonetheless, that little
increase of the inspectors we are going to have are not going to be
able to achieve all the work and the challenges we are faced with as
the department, for them to be able to reach all areas, inspect
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 209 of 376
different areas to see if the residents in those areas have relevant
permits. It is also true that the Stakeholder Forums are not working
efficiently in all the areas – they‘re not fully developed – there
are many areas, even in the rural areas, where they are working very
hard and with determination. There are also many areas they do not
reach. Therefore, we are working on making sure that these
Stakeholder Forums are working efficiently, that is why last year we
established the National Council of Stakeholder Forums which will
make sure that in all the provinces, all the districts, Metros and
the local municipalities we have are having functional Stakeholder
Forums, that are going to execute this job in a proper manner in
helping the Department, and also in helping our inspectors to reach
all areas. Thank you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Order. Order, hon Minister.
[Interjections.] Order, please. Are you done, sir?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Re kopa phetolelo ya Setswana. Ga ke utlwe.
[Can I get interpretation into Setswana as I cannot understand.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Tlhathollo ya Setswana? [Is
there interpreting in Setswana?]
I hope they have heard us and they will make sure that we have it.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 210 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT: (Ms M C Dikgale): E teng ke eo. Ke a e utlwa, Mma. [It
is available.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): The next speaker is hon
Faber. I think he is the last one here. Others will follow.
Mr W F FABER: Hon House Chairperson, I would just like to ask the
hon Minister on the monitoring of the undesirable persons living in
South Africa. If I look at the original question, it also asks about
further relevant details. I suppose that the Minister have details
of how many undesirable persons are in South Africa at the moment. I
would like that. Is there a specific place where undesirable persons
or refugees can also stay before you deport them or do you just
deport them? What actions do you take at this stage with undesirable
persons or refugees in South Africa.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Faber.
Mohl Mokwele, Setswana se mo go kanale ya bošupa. [Tsenoganong.] Ke
ya bosenyane? Go lokile. Mohl Tona, ke a leboga ge o se hweditše,
mma. [Hon Mokwele, Setswana is on channel seven. [Interjections.] Is
it channel nine? It‘s alright. Hon Minister, I‘m glad you finally
tuned in.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS:
PAGE: 211 of 376
Thank you hon House Chair and thank
you hon Faber for the questions. The details as to how many
undesirable persons there are in the country; I cannot provide you
with the answer right now. We can look at the system. The system
generates undesirable persons everyday. So, the numbers will keep
changing, depending on when a person‘s permit has expired and how
long they have overstayed.
Secondly, the undesirable persons and refugees are not the same.
Refugees are in the country on an unspecified status of residence in
South Africa. And so long as a person is on a refugee status, there
is no specified period on when they can be in the country. It is
until such time when the situation in their country of origin
normalises and they return back or, following South African
Immigration Act, they can apply for permanent residence and
eventually for naturalisation.
In so far as undesirable persons are concerned, we have no
particular place where we keep them. We can only know that one is
now an undesirable when one present himself at the port of exit and
when the movement control system reads his passport - it then gives
us the indication that one is declared undesirable and how long your
status will last.
In instances where undesirable persons, on the basis that they are
in the country without documents - the category we call illegal
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 212 of 376
migrants, are apprehended by the immigration inspectors, they are
then taken to a repatriation facility.
Initially or until now, that is the Lindela Repatriation Centre or
they can be kept in prisons until such a time that they are
repatriated. There is now a Constitutional Court decision which
indicates that we cannot keep people who are due for repatriation which means that the department is reworking the system to be able
to send all those people who have been found to be in the country
illegally, without documents, to the Lindela Repatriation Centre or
either to repatriate them immediately.
It is difficult for us to immediately repatriate without knowing
what the person‘s country of origin is. Some of the people provide
us with false information about the country of their origin. We only
find out about that when the relevant foreign missions of those
countries come to verify their nationality, they indicate to us that
the person, for example, is indeed from East Africa, based on their
vaccination - but they are not from Kenya; they are either from
Tanzania or Rwanda.
So, we have to sit and wait for the foreign mission of the person‘s
claimed country of origin to come and verify their nationality
before we can repatriate them. The department is reworking its
system based on the Constitutional Court‘s ruling this week so that
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 213 of 376
we can comply with the Constitutional Court‘s ruling but at the same
time be able to implement the Immigration Act. Thank you.
Lesotho Special Permits
54.
Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
(1) What criteria is used to determine whether the Basotho
nationals
who
reside
in
South
Africa
qualify
for
special permits;
(2)
whether
his
department
has
commenced
with
the
testing of the systems to enable online verification
regarding the qualification of the Basotho nationals
before Lesotho Special Permits are processed; if not,
why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO85E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, the purpose of the Lesotho
special dispensation is to regularise the status of undocumented
Basotho nationals who are currently residing in South Africa
illegally. It is meant to document the Basotho nationals who are
working, studying or running businesses in South Africa without
appropriate documentation.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 214 of 376
The Basotho nationals who have acquired the South African documents
including the citizenship fraudulently, will be granted amnesty if
they surrender these documents. We have taken a further decision
that all the Basotho nationals who are residing in South Africa
illegally will not be deported for a period lasting until 31
December 2016, to allow this special dispensation to be implemented
fully and without hindrance.
In order to qualify to get the Lesotho Special Permit, a Lesotho
national must adhere to the following requirement: Firstly, the
national must be illegally residing in the Republic of South Africa
before 30 September 2015. Secondly, they should have been registered
on the national population register of Lesotho. Thirdly, they should
have a valid passport or travelling document with a unique Lesotho
identity number. Fourthly, they should have Lesotho police clearance
if he or she is in the country for less than 12 months.
This means that if they are in the country for longer than 12
months, they will have to obtain South African police clearance.
Lastly, they must also provide proof of the following: Firstly, an
employment in the form of affidavit from the employer in order to be
issued with a permit of work. Secondly, a proof of the registration
of the business in order to be issued with a permit to conduct a
business, and lastly, a proof of registration with a relevant
educational institution in order to be issued with a permit to
study.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 215 of 376
The testing of systems is ongoing. The connectivity of Information
Technology, IT, is one of the critical areas that were considered
with regards to operational readiness. There were challenges
concerning direct physical line connection between the two
countries. These connectivity challenges are receiving attention.
Testing of systems will continue between 1 and 29 February 2016
effectively to enable online verification of the Basotho nationals
before the Lesotho Special Permits are processed and accordingly
issued.
The areas to be tested include the following: The online
application, the validation of national population registration and
biometric data with Lesotho; the offline application and the
information security of the entire application. The IT teams from
both countries are working on testing these systems in partnership
with the Visa Facilitation Services, VFS, globally.
In conclusion we can say, that we have been working very well and
closely with our Lesotho counterparts to ensure that when this
process commences online on 1 March 2016, there will be no major
hindrances and the process will be smooth. Thank you very much.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Minister, I‘m happy with the response, but I just
want to find out from you, because we are talking about the people
who are already in South Africa and therefore they cannot get the
information in Lesotho; they need to get this information wherever
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 216 of 376
they are in South Africa. Now, how do they get this information so
that we might not see a repeat of what has happened with the
Zimbabwe Special Permits, ZSP, with the extensions that kept on
going.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, let me thank the hon
Khawula for the question. The information is being disseminated
through a variety of measures. We are not only relying on the public
media in order to disseminate information. We are also relying on
various networks of the Basotho in South Africa, so that they can
obtain relevant information.
I can confirm that my counterpart from Lesotho has been in our
country on several occasions, meeting with Lesotho nationals in
different provinces. I know for a fact that he has been in the Free
State Province; he also recently went to Bojanala Region in
Rustenburg, to meet with the Basotho mining workers in that region.
We are communicating on an extensive basis.
We are also trying to reach out to as many South Africans and
educational institutions as possible, so that where they have the
Basotho employees as well as students; they are able to inform them
and provide them with relevant affidavits, so that they can come
forward and apply for the required documents.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 217 of 376
We will continue to communicate extensively to ensure that we can
reach out to as many people as possible. It is our hope that we will
not have extended or recurring extensions as a result of
communication mechanism that we have established. Thank you.
Mme N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetilo, ke rata go botsa Tona gore go tlile
jang gore lelapa la ga Gupta le letlelelwe go nneela ruri mo
Aforikaborwa? Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraph
follows.)
[Ms N P MOKGOSI: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister why
the Gupta‘s were allowed to stay in South Africa permanently? Thank
you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Mohl, ba botšiša potšišo ke
yeo. [Hon Minister, a question has been put forth.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I‘m not aware that there is
any Gupta member who is from Lesotho. Thank you. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Re a leboga, mohl Tona.
[Thank you, hon Minister.]
Hon members, if ever there is no any other follow-up question, we
are proceeding to Question 55 asked by the hon C Hatting and I have
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 218 of 376
received a note here that the hon member, Mr Julius will take a
responsibility for the hon member, Mr Hatting ... [Interjections.]
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetilo, ke kopa go botsa gore a o ka ntetla go
botsa potso ya tlaleletso? Ke a kopa. [Chairperson, I would like to
ask if you are going to allow me to ask a follow up question? I am
pleading with you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Ka madimabe e ka se
kgonege, mma. O humana ye tee fela. Bjale re kgopela go tšwela pele.
[Unfortunately that won‘t be possible, madam. You can only ask one
question. Can we please proceed? ]
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Ke a leboga, Mma. [Thank you, Madam.]
Turnaround time for visa applications
55.
Mr C Hatting (North West: DA) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
What is his department‘s average turnaround time for
visa applications?
CO86E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, the average turnaround time
for a visa application is eight weeks for business and general work.
The turnaround time for critical skills visa applications is four
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 219 of 376
weeks. All other visa categories take between eight to ten weeks due
to the risk-based approached required to verify certain documents
submitted by the applicant.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Minister, based on your answer: Are there any
backlogs in visa applications as we stand? Can you go on record to
say there are no visa backlogs at this moment; and if any, how long
are these backlogs on average?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Indeed, there are visa backlogs
arising from a number of factors. In some instances, I think the
main reason is that we have insufficient capacity in terms of
personnel to process all the visa applications that come to the
Department of Home Affairs. South Africa is a country that attracts
large volumes of mixed migration flows.
There are large volumes of people who are applying for South African
visas. Some of the visa applications date back four to five years.
Beginning from 2015, the department started with a process of
dealing with all the visa backlogs to ensure that we speed them up
and we complete them. That would include people applying for
permanent residence permits as well as those on short -term permits.
However, I wish to confirm that the department has been making
significant progress in addressing the visa backlogs, particularly
those of students who need to come into the country to study. When
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 220 of 376
there was a problem in 2015, during exam time, we extended all
student visas - whether they were expiring or not - to the end of
2015. We ensured that we provided sufficient capacity at the
beginning of 2015.
I sent a delegation to Lesotho and Zimbabwe – the two countries that
had the largest number of student who had applied for visas – to go
and speed up the visa applications in those countries. Within two
days of their arrival in those countries, they were able to complete
all the visa applications for study purpose, which then enabled the
students to come into the country in January and start attending
classes.
So, the concern by hon Julius is genuine but I want to assure him
that the department is doing all within its power to eliminate
whatever backlogs there may be, to ensure that the people applying
for visas can get their documents on time. However, there are
innovations that we are going to implement.
In the course of time, we will be introducing electronic visas. This
will ensure that we assist a great deal in resolving backlogs with
regard to visa applications and provide a quality service of
international standard to people applying for visas of our country.
In addition to which, the department has decided that we will issue
a ten-year multiple-entry visa to Brazil, Russia, India, China and
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 221 of 376
South Africa business people, Brics business people, African
business people and African academics.
This includes frequent travellers to our country who are tourists
and who come to our country on other basis. However, the condition
for such a long term visa is that they must be frequent travellers
to our country, or they must be academics, or they must be business
people. We are working with the Department of Trade and Industry to
determine the criteria for such business people so that we do not
have people who are not in business claiming to be business people
in order to access our documents.
We are introducing those innovations: In order to reduce the
requirement for the department to have to issue visas on a regular
basis; and to provide long term visas to people who actually deserve
those documents.
Mr W F FABER: Minister, we have been waiting for almost three years
for the new biometric system; we can‘t wait! We are eager like
children for you to implement that one. So, thank you for confirming
that you are looking at that.
Back to the question though Minister: We are looking at VFS Global
that actually took over the applications of the visa system. Now, my
worry is: You just said that there is not enough staff available. My
problem is that a year-and-half or two years ago, the Home Affairs
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 222 of 376
staff were still the same people that were processing visas. What
happened to all their staff because VFS Global has taken over that
responsibility? I know in Pretoria they are just finalising visas
because VFS Global is working as the agency all over the country.
So, my question is: What happened to them? And then, VFS Global is
charging R1 350 for a visitor‘s visa, while Home Affairs only gets
R425 per visa. My question is: With this money, what happened to the
previous staff? Were they given other jobs to do? You have just been
stating that you don‘t have staff. What happened to all the staff?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thanks to hon Faber for the question.
Some of the staff that was working at permitting in the department
was transferred to the live capture offices and others were
transferred to the adjudication section. This has enabled us - as I
was saying during the recent months - to speed up the adjudication
process because this is the area where the backlog was.
So, we have been speeding that process up. The people who are there
now are able to assist us in that regard. With the new systems that
we are implementing, we are relieving them off the pressure even
more, so that they can be able to round up all the outstanding
applications, particularly for permanent residence and others, to
ensure that we have no backlogs whatsoever. We can take timorous
decisions when people apply for documents.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 223 of 376
There are other electronic systems that we are going to introduce to
assist us to adjudicate even more, without people having to have
their documents sent to the country before we can take a decision.
We are introducing those systems working with the VFS Global. In the
course of time, we should implement those systems and ensure that
they work quite efficiently. We are trying to raise our standard to
international standards because this is a very competitive sector,
particularly on critical skills.
South Africa must match up with all other countries that are
competing for these critical skills: To ensure that we issue their
documents quicker for them to be able to commence their work; and
for the companies to have ease of recruiting critical staff.
The R1 300 that is paid to VFS Global is a service fee to assist VFS
Global to recruit staff to provide the service without the
department having to pay them anything. When we look at it, it is
actually far lesser than what immigration officers have been
charging applicants as fees - up to R10 000, R20 000, R50 000 and
R100 000.
The R1 300 is quite a small portion and has enabled VFS Global to
recruit staff of South Africa origin that is assisting them to
process visa applications. It ensures that we can have as many South
Africans as possible employed there providing this service. Thank
you!
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 224 of 376
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Madam Chairperson, Hon Minister, for your
information ...
Ba ba kobile kwa Lesotho, ke sone se o palelwang ke go araba dipotso
tse ka gore o legatlapa. Ke batla gore o re bolelele gore ... [They
were kicked out of Lesotho, hence you are unable to give answers
because you‘re a coward. I want you to tell us if ...]
Are you not Gupta‘s payroll?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, please take
your seat.
Ms M P MOKGOSI: Ga ke ise ke fetse go bua mma. [I am not done
madam.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes. You‘ll come back.
O tlile go boa gape. [You will come back.]
There is a point of order here. What is your point of order?
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, hon Mokgosi has just called the Minister a
coward. I would like you to rule on that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi. Order, hon
members!
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 225 of 376
Ms M P MOKGOSI: Mma ... Motl Modulasetulo, ke tswelele? [Hon
Chairperson, may I continue?]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M C Dikgale): Dula fase. Akere ba be ba
hlagišitše ntlha ya tokišo. Bjale, ke nyaka go bolela le wena, mma
gore ... [Please be seated. They have already raised a point of
order. Now I would like to speak to you, ma‘m, that ...]
... the hon Minister‘s name is not ―coward‖. So, please make sure
that you call him by the relevant surname.
Ms M P MOKGOSI: Go siame mma. Ke a leboga. [Okay madam, thank you.]
I won‘t. He didn‘t withdraw his statement. I won‘t withdraw. That,
you must not count on.
My question is, this Minister, ...
A re bolelele gore a ga a na akhaonto kwa moseja? Le gore a ga a mo
lenaneng la tuelo go tswa go Balelapa la ga Gupta? Ke tsone dipotso
tsa me eo. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[My questions are as follows: Does he own an offshore acacount? Is
he on the Gupta‘s payroll? Thank you.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 226 of 376
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, may I make a submission to your good self?
The statement this hon member has made, referring to the Minister as
a coward, would you please look at the Hansard and come back with a
ruling on that with regard to it being parliamentary or not?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Actually, hon member, you
can‘t do that. [Interjections.] You can‘t do that, hon member.
[Interjections.] Please, don‘t even stand up. Just raise your hand
so I can see you. A ruling has been made in this House that we refer
to the hon members as ―hon‖ members. The hon Minister is an hon
Member of Parliament. So, we cannot call him a ―coward‖. I am glad
that you agree. So, please stand up and withdraw that word.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I refuse to withdraw the truth, because the Minister
made a statement that was unparliamentary and he did not withdraw.
You did not make him withdraw. So, if he withdraws, I will withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You cannot take us back, hon
Mokgosi.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: ... and your ANC members?
Ms T J MOKWELE: And me too.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, I have made a
ruling. Please withdraw the name ―coward‖. We don‘t have ...
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 227 of 376
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I‘m not going to withdraw. First it must go back to
him and he must withdraw the statement he made. Just because he is a
Minister, he can say whatever he wants in this House. In this very
House we are all equal. There is no Minister, we are all hon members
in this very House. So, until he withdraws, I will wait to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, please withdraw
the name ―coward‖.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I said I‘m not going to. He must withdraw first,
then I will withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, I am asking you
for the last time. Withdraw that name. It does not belong to the
Minister.
Ms T J MOKWELE: So, the statement he made belongs to hon Mathys?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I‘m still talking to the hon
Mokgosi. I will give you a chance, hon Mokwele.
Hon Mokgosi, I am asking you for the last time, please withdraw the
name.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Withdraw the truth?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 228 of 376
Mr B G NTHEBE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Nthebe, I was going to
ask the hon Mokgosi not to refer to the Minister as the hon truth,
but a coward, so I wanted her to withdraw the word ―coward‖, or the
name ―coward‖ before we give you a chance. [Interjections.] Can I
finish with the hon Mokgosi before I come to you? I will give you a
chance. [Interjections.]
Ke tlile go go neela tšhono mma, nna fa fatshe. [I will afford you
an opportunity. Take your seat.]
Hon Mokgosi, let us finish this process. Please withdraw the name
―coward‖. We don‘t have a coward Member of Parliament.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: the Minister boasted about not withdrawing. Because
you are saying this word ―coward‖ is not a name, then it means that
the statement he made was for hon Mathys and you did not make him
withdraw. So, you cannot make me withdraw. It‘s a figure of speech.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, ...
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I so move.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, you leave me
now choice but to ask you to leave the House. [Interjections.] I
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 229 of 376
will talk to you when we are done with hon Mokgosi. [Interjections.]
Okay, I will take your point of order, but let‘s finish this first.
You are not hon Mokgosi.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Madam Chair, on a point of order: I am assisting you
to finish the matter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi, please leave
the House, because you don‘t want to withdraw the name.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Can I assist you?
Ms M P MOKGOSI: Ba bitse ba tle go ... [Do call them.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Can I assist you, Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokgosi.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Bitsa banna ba ba kwenneng ba tle go ... [Call those
strong men to ...]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, can I then ask the
usher to help us? [Interjections.] I‘ll give you a chance to speak.
Let us deal with this one first, then I‘ll come back to you.
[Inaudible.] I‘ll give you a chance. Let‘s deal with this issue
first.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 230 of 376
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I heard you.
I‘ll give you a chance to speak. [Inaudible.] I cannot do that.
[Interjections.]
Hon Mokgosi, the usher is there to ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
Thank you very much, hon Mokgosi. Hon Mokwele, why are you on your
feet?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo yo o tlotlegang, ke santse ke ema ka
ntlha ya ga Tona. [Hon Chairperson, I‘m standing on the Minister‘s
point.]
Am I protected?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I want to know, why are you
on your feet?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Am I protected, Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I gave you a chance, hon
Mokwele.
Mme T J MOKWELE: Go siame, ke a leboga. Motl Modulasetilo ...
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 231 of 376
Ka boikokobetso re kopa gore dikatlholo tsa gago di seke tsa
mpampetsa maloko a ANC. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: I thank you Hon chairperson ... We are humbly
requesting that your rulings must not be made to favour the ANC
members.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is not a point of
order.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Minister Gigaba earlier stated clearly that he is
not going to withdraw the words that he used. He stated it clearly.
He said, ―I‘m not going to withdraw inside and I‘m not going to
withdraw outside‖. It‘s a clear indication and you laughed, because
...
A o utlwile gore o ne a reng ... [Did you hear what the member has
just said?]
You laughed, because it is an ANC member. Now hon Mokgosi ...
... o bua ka legatlapa. [... talks of a coward.]
You insisted that hon Mokgosi must with draw the word ―coward‖. The
question is clear: Does the Minister have an account with the
Guptas? It doesn‘t need any protection or anything. He must answer
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 232 of 376
whether he has an offshore account or if he is paid by the Guptas.
That is an honest question that needs an answer from the Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat, hon member.
Ms T J MOKWELE: And if you allow this thing to happen, it is not
fair to us as members of the EFF, because it‘s as if we are
targeted. Whenever we speak ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, your time has
lapsed. Can you please take your seat?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Which time? I‘m standing on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Is it a point of order?
Ms T J MOKWELE: I‘m standing on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, you were asking a
question about the Guptas.
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, no ... [Inaudible.] ... a question posed by hon
Mokgosi, whom you chased out of the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): So, that was a new question?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 233 of 376
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, but it must be clear and you must be consistent
in taking decisions in this House.
Re a ikopela mma. [We are pleading with you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much. I will
be consistent, but that was a new question. Can we please continue?
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chair ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I have a list
of names in front of me. [Interjections.] I want to check if he is
rising on a point of order first before I come back to you.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, on a point of order: Honestly speaking,
we cannot afford a dialogue like this forever. And I am saying,
whatever is happening here, it is not for the betterment of South
Africans who are sitting out there with the hope that South Africa
will be a changed country. [Interjections.] I am saying,
Chairperson, your ruling should be your ruling and it should not be
contested. There‘s a procedure in terms of how this meeting should
be conducted. And we are appealing, it doesn‘t mean if we don‘t
raise our concerns there is nothing that we can say. Elements of
disrespect to the House will never ... [Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 234 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Mokwele. Order!
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You cannot behave like that,
hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, you cannot
behave like that.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Be consistent!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, you cannot
chair from the seat you are sitting in. [Interjections.] You cannot
do that.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, do not entertain wrong things happening
in this House, because this House is degenerating unnecessarily.
Ms T J MOKWELE: What is your point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you for those words.
You are encouraging us to make sure that we keep the House in order;
and that is what we are trying to do. [Interjections.] I will also
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 235 of 376
appeal to the hon Mokwele, when you are on your feet and you are
speaking, we will always protect you. But can you also do that when
other members are speaking? We will continue.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, thank you very much ... [Inaudible.] ... your
consistency. We are not degenerating.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Is that a supplementary
question, hon Mokwele?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Minister, it is clear that everybody knows about
the Guptas.
Ba kobilwe kwa Lesotho, jaanong ke batla go itse gore jaaka puso ya
Aforika Borwa ke melao kgotsa mekgwa efe e e latetsweng go ... [They
were kicked out of Lesotho. Now, I want to know which laws or
approaches were followed by the South African Government in order to
give ...]
... the Guptas‘ visas and permanent residence in South Africa? Thank
you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, let me remind
you about the question. The question is: ―What is his department‘s
average turnaround time for visa applications?‖ You are now asking a
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 236 of 376
new question. Maybe you should rather put that in writing.
[Interjections.]
Hon members! Hon Mokwele, you cannot do as you wish in this House.
[Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, allow me to run this House.
[Interjections.] I am talking to you for the last time, hon Mokwele.
Please take your seat so that we can continue. [Interjections.] You
did not even wait for me to finish what I was saying.
[Interjections.] You just stood up and ...
O no emelela wa thoma go bolela, mohl Mokwele. Mekgwa yeo ya gago re
ka se e kgone ka mo gare ga Ngwako. Re ka se e kgone. Re tšwela
pele. [You cannot just stand up and start speaking without being
recognised, hon Mokwele. It is unaccpetable in this august House. We
cannot have that.We shall proceed.]
We do not have a Gupta question on the Order Paper.
Ms T K MAMPURU: House Chairperson, we are requesting you not to
continue with a dialogue in this House. Hon Mohapi has just
cautioned you about that matter. We cannot continue like this.
Grandstanding on a runway does not assist the citizens of South
Africa. Can you be tough on your rulings?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 237 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I was very, very tough. And
that is why she took her seat and she was quiet. So, we shall then
continue to the next question.
Inefficiencies in processing IDs
60.
Ms L Mathys (Gauteng: EFF) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) What has been done by his department to deal with
inefficiencies
relating
to
the
processing
of
identity
documents, (b) how will certain cases (details furnished)
be resolved and (c) when?
CO94E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, there is a welldefined process and a step-by-step procedure for the issuance of ID
documents. [Interjections.] This is coupled with a track-and-trace
system that tracks the movement ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Mokwele.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: ... that tracks and traces the ...
Chairperson, if I may start afresh. There is a well-defined process
and a step-by-step procedure for the issuance of identity documents.
This is coupled with a track-and-trace system that tracks the
movement of applications from front offices to head office and the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 238 of 376
finalised identity documents back to front offices when the document
is ready for collection.
A cellphone short messaging system is also used to confirm with the
client when the application was lodged at the front office, when it
was received and when the document is ready and available for
collection at the front office. The department therefore, has
control and monitoring measures in place to address and eliminate
inefficiencies which relate to the issuing of identity documents.
Neither of the cases mentioned in the Question relates specifically
to the issuing of identity documents.
In the first case indicated, it has been established that two
different persons with similar personal particulars applied for
identity documents in 1994 and 1995. The person to whom an identity
document was issued in 1994 - Miss Ntombifikile Notha, with identity
number 7410250838087 - passed away in 2012 and her death was duly
registered against her identity number.
However, due to the similarity of personal particulars and finger
print classifications, it was initially recorded that the person who
had passed away had been in possession of two identity numbers and
therefore the identity number on which an identity document had been
issued in 1995 to the other Miss Notha - identity number
7410120940089 - was cancelled.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 239 of 376
In view of the high prevalence of fraudulent death registrations
made for financial gain, it was necessary to conduct a further
extremely comprehensive investigation as a result of the highly
complex nature of the case in order to establish if there was a
second person with similar personal particulars who was still alive.
The investigation was only resolved following receipt of specific
documents from this person in 2015. The investigation established
that there were two persons involved and identity number
7410120940089 — which was cancelled in 2012 — has been re-instated
for the Ntombifikile Notha who is still alive and arrangements are
being made for the issuing of a smart ID card to her.
The second case relates to a late registration of birth which must
be finalised before a smart ID card or identity document can be
issued. When a person‘s birth has never been registered with the
department it is initially necessary for that person to apply for a
late registration of birth which enables an identity number to be
allocated, after which that person can apply for a smart ID card or
identity document.
Due to the excessive abuse of the late registration of birth
procedures by non-South African citizens who apply claiming they are
South African citizens, the procedures for a late registration of
birth are rigorous and follow a strict protocol. The applicant must
be accompanied by an informant who is a South African citizen
registered on the National Population Register, NPR. Their
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 240 of 376
fingerprints are taken to conduct a background check on the identity
of the applicant who must then be interviewed by a screening
committee. Any suspect applicants are referred to immigration
services for further investigation.
Committees require that a person provides sufficient proof to
establish beyond reasonable doubt that they are South African
citizens and are entitled to South African citizenship. Applications
are then referred to the provincial screening committees and, if
approved, the application will be forwarded to head office for the
allocation of an identity number. This procedure is necessary to
protect both the value of South African citizenship and to protect
the integrity of the National Population Register.
Although an application for a late registration of birth was
submitted in 2010, the matter will require further comprehensive
investigation in view of the requirements relating to late
registrations of birth. Thank you very much.
Ms L MATHYS: Chair, as we all know, the EFF is in the business of
holding the executive to account for not protecting the executors.
So, it is not surprising that we have members who jump to the rescue
of the Minister and respond to the Gupta question as they always do.
My follow-up Question, Minister, ... [Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 241 of 376
Mr M J MOHAPI: I rise on a point of order, Chairperson. With due
respect. You are expecting the hon member to present a supplementary
Question and to avoid the frivolous input she has just made.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon member.
Continue, hon Mathys.
Ms L MATHYS: Points of order ... I don‘t know.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys!
Ms L MATHYS: But why are you shouting at me? He is the one that
stood up and did something out of order, but you are shouting at me.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys ...
Ms L MATHYS I was just making a statement. My Question is ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, you are not
supposed to make a statement hon member. You are supposed to rise on
a point of order ... on a supplementary Question. [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: ... [Inaudible.] ... of consistency ... [Inaudible.]
because people just randomly stand up and make statements and sit
down. So if you were consistent, no problem, but you were not.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 242 of 376
My Question is about the IDs. Minister, we know we have a lot of
born-frees - the so-called born-free children but we know they are
not literally born free - who need to register to vote this year.
What has the department planned? You know, I had a call from one of
our offices in Madibeng saying that the Department of Home Affairs
there was giving them a hard time in processing the IDs. So, if they
do not have IDs they cannot register to vote and if they can‘t
register to vote it means that they can‘t vote for EFF. So, we just
want to ensure that our youngsters are ready to register to vote and
to vote for the EFF. Thank you, Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, ...
[Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon Mathys, I want to read this
Order. Rule 36, the officer presiding may order a member addressing
the Chair to stop speaking if that member, despite warnings from the
Chair, persist in irrelevant or repetitive arguments. I hope ...
when I was coming in when you were busy talking ... you will
understand because it is according to the Rule. But, anyhow, next
time don‘t repeat that. ... [Interjections.] It will apply. Hon
Minister?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Chairperson, and to hon
Mathys for the Question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Before you continue ... the
hon member Khawula ...
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 243 of 376
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, you are quite right: A member must
respect the Chair. But, Chair, you are the only presiding officer
here. Now, all these other people who are trying to assist you are
actually disturbing us. Hon Mohapi just rose and made a statement,
disturbing a member. You did not make a ruling on that. You have to
be consistent, Chairperson. She was wrong; he was also wrong. All of
them should have been be ruled accordingly, not selectively.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, hon Khawula, maybe you
did not listen very well to the hon member Mohapi. He was rising on
a point of order. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson.
The Department of Home Affairs has plans in place to assist younger
people to obtain identity documents to be able to vote for the ANC
and others. Our offices will obviously be opened during the voter
registration weekend of 05 to 06 March for young people to come
forward to apply for IDs and temporary IDs which they can use to
register to vote for the ANC in the coming local elections. Thank
you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, I can only allow
you if there are no supplementary Questions because you already had
your time Honourable ... [Interjections.]
Mr F ESSACK: Who is on the floor?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 244 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are on the floor, hon
Essak.
Mr F ESSACK: Thank you, hon Chair. I say this with absolute respect.
South Africans out there want to hear answers to pertinent questions
in this House. But, again with absolute respect, if you are to be
consistent ... For a man of the calibre of hon Gigaba who is
supposed to be the Minister of Home Affairs to stand here and make a
statement at the end of his closing remarks, and I quote, ―to enable
citizens of this country to vote for the ANC.‖ I mean, come on, hon
Chairperson! I think you should ask him to withdraw. If he is a man
of calibre, he should be leading by example. Because, really, with
due respect, we take strong offence to this. This House represents
South Africans as a whole; not a certain party. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, hon members!
Hon member Mokwele, please!
Hon Minister, you were trying to respond to the supplementary
Question that was raised by hon Mathys when she spoke about voting
for the EFF, and hon Essack was here. [Interjections.] So can I then
see ... and he said nothing. Can I see any other ...
[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No supplementary Question. [Interjections.]
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 245 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): There‘s no ... okay.
[Interjections.] Point of order? [Interjections.] No, hon Mokwele
... [Interjections.] Order, hon Mokwele! [Interjections.] What is
your point of order, hon Mathys?
Ms L MATHYS: ... saying that only those who will say they are going
to vote for ANC are going to get their IDs on time. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): That is not a point of
order. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.] What is your
point of order, honourable ...?
Ms L MATHYS: It is a point of clarity. So, is the Minister implying
that only people who will vote for the ANC will get their IDs on
time? Do you see what sorts of members we have here in the House?
ANC MPs that can answer Questions like that! Can you see?
[Interjections.] And you talk about ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You know what will happen?
[Interjections.] Hon Mathys, please take your seat.
Ms L MATHYS: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathys, I heard you.
Please take your seat. What will happen is that I will consult the
Hansard ... [Interjections.] ... and check on what you said when you
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 246 of 376
were asking your supplementary Question and also the response by the
hon Minister. We will then take it from there.
Hon members, please take your seats so that ... [Interjections.] ...
Are you rising on a supplementary Question?
Mr W F FABER: Am I recognised, Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I recognise you, hon member.
Mr W F FABER: Thank you, Chair. Chairperson, I think it is very
clear. We all heard that the hon Minister clearly stated that ANC
members will be able to vote. Now Chair, I just believe ... this hon
Minister, as I know him, is a person of honour and I believe he can
ask for forgiveness or just ... [Interjections.] ... actually say to
us that he is sorry about his comment and that he will withdraw it
and life will go on. But we cannot use this House — this august
House is the so-called upper House of Parliament — to play cheap
politics. That is not right Chair. So please, I would like to ask
the Minister to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member Faber ...
[Interjections.] Order, hon Mthimunye! Hon member Faber, the
Minister was trying to respond to what hon Mathys had raised. That
is why I said I will consult the Hansard because she also said
something about voting for the EFF and you were here. The hon
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 247 of 376
Minister was trying to respond. So, I will go and consult and I will
come back.
Hon members, please, let us continue with our business of the day.
Combating ID fraud
45.
Ms L C Dlamini (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
Whether
his
department
has
any
plans
in
place
in
collaboration with the financial service industry to combat
the scourge of identity document fraud; if not, why not;
if so, (a) what plans and (b) what are the further relevant
details?
CO76E
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, the Question was
whether the department has any plans in place to collaborate with
the financial services industry to combat the scourge of identity
document fraud.
The answer is yes. The department is working very closely with both
the financial services industry as well as the insurance companies
to combat identity document fraud. In this regard, the department
has signed an agreement with the financial service industry and has
installed a system in banks as well at some insurance companies for
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 248 of 376
clients to verify their identity details through the use of an
online verification system that is directly linked to the Home
Affairs National Identity System.
The department has a project management committee that meets
regularly to assess any challenges that are experienced in the
financial services industry and to provide solutions to address
these.
In 2013, the Association for Savings and Investments SA, Asisa,
reported that the insurance industry had lost in excess of
R254 million with more than 2 093 fraudulent claims received. The
Home Affairs National Identification System, Hanis, potentially
prevents a R322 million loss per month which is estimated to work
out to R3,8 billion per annum.
As of December 2015, there are now seven participating banks using
the Hanis verification service. There is movement from 3 682
branches and using 16 058 finger-scanning devices. Transaction
volumes are now 2,5 million a month and up to 150 000 per day.
With regard to the insurance industry, the department has signed an
agreement of understanding, MOU, with Asisa. The Verification of
Personal Details system went live on 9 September 2014. Participating
insurance companies have been able to fast-track payment of valid
claims in favour of beneficiaries who, at times, desperately need
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 249 of 376
the funds. As a result, the incidences of fraudulent claims have
dropped, resulting in companies saving millions of rand.
In 2014, 7 360 fraudulent claims were stopped, compared to only
2 093 in 2013. The value of the claims in 2014 was slightly lower at
R402,8 million compared to R524,6 million in 2013. These figures are
for fraudulent claims. The Association for Savings and Investments
SA has detailed the irregular activities detected in 2015. This
indicates the progress that we are making in combating fraudulent
claims. Our partnership has greatly assisted the financial services
industry to meet the legislative requirements to obtain confirmation
of identification of their clients. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon
Dlamini do you have a supplementary question?
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I would like to thank the hon Minister
for the response. My follow up question is on the contact centre
that you responded to earlier. Do you think it will support these
activities that you are embarking on in trying to prevent fraudulent
acts?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I would like thank hon Dlamini.
Yes, indeed, the contact centre will assist in supporting these
endeavours, even though the combating of fraudulent claims will not
be its primary preoccupation. However, to the extent that people who
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 250 of 376
are affected can be directed to the relevant channels, it will be of
great benefit. Where its immediate benefit will be realised is in
regard to the co-operation with the financial services industry. The
contact centre is directly at the banks or at the insurance
companies when people come to make either valid or fraudulent
claims. Thank you.
Withdrawal from ICC
59.
Mr V E Mtileni (Limpopo: EFF) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
What alternative proposals have been made for Africa to
prosecute
human
and
rights
Africa‘s
minimise
by
intended
murders
African
and
leaders,
withdrawal
from
Criminal Court (details furnished)
gross
violations
pertaining
the
to
of
South
International
CO93E
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): We proceed to Question 59 asked by the
hon Mtileni of the Minister. I have a note here that indicates that
the hon member Vawda will be responsible for this question. Oh, my
apologies. Hon Minister, thank you very much for your time. We are
now switching over to another department. We are going to ask the
Deputy Minister of International Relations and Co-operation to take
us through. Thank you very much.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 251 of 376
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, our response to the question is as follows. The plan
that is in place as an alternative to the International Criminal
Court, ICC, is the African Court on Human and People‘s Rights.
The Protocol on Amendments to the Protocol on the Statute of the
African Court of Justice and Human Rights was adopted in June 2014
by the Malabo Summit of the African Union, AU. This protocol
provides for the establishment of a third Chamber of the African
Court of Justice and Human Rights, besides the Human Rights Chamber
and the Chamber for Disputes on International Law Matters. The third
Chamber will have jurisdiction over individuals accused of
perpetrating genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and the
crime of aggression, as well as a number of other crimes.
The protocol, however, will enter into force after ratification by
15 member states. To date, no member state has ratified the protocol
and it is therefore not in force. Consequently, at present, the only
alternative avenue for the prosecution of gross violations of human
rights in Africa lies within the domestic jurisdiction of member
states.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, arising out of the hon Minister‘s reply,
in the event that the South African government does decide to
withdraw from the ICC, in what way will this impact on our position
with regard to other international agreements and international
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 252 of 376
associations? If any of these are going to be compromised in any
way, what measures do we have in place to ensure that this will be
kept to a minimum? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, we don‘t perceive that there will be any impact on any
international agreements that South Africa has. Our accession to the
Rome Statute was voluntary. Nobody held a gun to our heads. So, our
signing of that statute was entirely voluntary and not dependent on
any other agreements or treaties. So, accordingly, any withdrawal by
any member state, as a signatory to the Rome Statute and as a member
state of the International Criminal Court, will not result in any
negative impact on any other international agreement.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I think, indeed, the President said on
1 February that South Africa is seriously reviewing its
participation in the Rome Statute and will announce its decision in
due course. I think we can safely say that the Deputy Minister
announced it - your withdrawal from the ICC.
Has this decision to withdraw from the ICC something to do with the
attendance of Sudanese President Al-Bashir at the AU Summit in
Sandton, in June 2015? I ask because this was after the North
Gauteng High Court issued an order to arrest him. This court also
ruled that the South African government broke the law and
contravened the international agreement on this.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 253 of 376
Can you please answer if you are announcing it, Deputy Minister, and
is it because of Al-Bashir visiting the country? Are you in a corner
because of it and is that why you are withdrawing? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, I have no authority to make such an announcement.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Julius!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: I
really would appeal to the hon Julius to have listened to what I
have said. This is that there are processes ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members! Order! Hon Mohapi,
hon Mathys, please don‘t start the chaos. Continue, hon Deputy
Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, to the hon Julius and other hon members, there are a
number of processes that the South African government has to comply
with. The final one is lodging with the International Criminal Court
in The Hague a document saying that we are going to withdraw. From
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 254 of 376
the date of the lodging of that document stating our intention,
another 12 months have to lapse before we formally withdraw.
Before that, Parliament must repeal certain pieces of legislation.
That cannot be done overnight. That is with regard to the one part
of the hon Julius‘s question. I‘m not going to respond to the one
about Omar Al-Bashir because the matter is sub judice.
Now, the hon Julius asks why we are wanting to withdraw. I will give
you one example. In 2014, Israel bombarded the Gaza Strip. Several
people presented themselves at The Hague, before the ICC, and laid
at the ICC documents asking the ICC to charge and prosecute all
those involved. This included the head of state of Israel, Benjamin
Netanyahu, senior members of the Israeli defence force and all other
people involved in that bombardment. To date, we have heard nothing.
So, you see, when Africans say the ICC is not consistent, that is
what the leaders of the African states are referring to. The whole
world watched in awe as the Gaza Strip was bombarded. So, what is it
that is holding the office of the prosecutor in the International
Criminal Court from taking the important decision that Benjamin
Netanyahu and everyone else involved in that bombardment should be
charged and prosecuted? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): The next member is the hon Engelbrecht
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 255 of 376
and the last one will be the hon Michalakis. [Interjections.] Order,
hon members! Order! Hon Engelbrecht, please take your seat. I want
to address the hon Makue.
Normally, what happens is, immediately after the response, we check.
These hon members don‘t speak. They just raise their hands, and I
have already written their names down. You just raised yours now. My
apologies, sir. Continue, hon member.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, Mr Deputy President, thank you for
that explanation. [Interjections.] Mr Deputy Minister, you have just
confirmed that South Africa voluntarily agreed to sign the agreement
to the Rome Statute. However, we have absolutely, voluntarily gone
against our voluntary agreement. [Interjections.] In other words –
Madam Chair, I need protection here. I‘m getting confused.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): You are protected, hon member.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: In other words, we voluntarily signed the
agreement. However, we voluntarily breached the agreement. My
question therefore is, Mr Deputy Minister: What has that done to our
image in terms of the world view? How do other governments see us?
How do other governments, worldwide, respect us, and how can we then
show fingers to other countries if we are breaching international
agreements that we signed voluntarily? Thank you.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 256 of 376
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chair, I am grateful to the hon Engelbrecht for the correction. On
four occasions, they referred to me as ―Deputy President‖. I really
have no such ambitions. I thought the Chair would correct both her
and the hon Julius but she saw fit to make the correction herself,
for which I am most grateful.
South Africa, throughout the world, and in particular, on the
African continent, is held in esteem. There are many African
countries waiting for South Africa‘s decision as to whether it will
withdraw from the International Criminal Court. The understanding
for our position is shown by the fact that they have indicated they
will follow our lead.
So, yes, I repeat what I said earlier. We acceded to the Rome
Statute, voluntarily, and similarly, if we decide to withdraw from
the ICC, it will be a decision made by the leaders of this country.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, if I may, let
us forget for a moment whether the ICC is ideal or not. Whether you
like it or not, let‘s leave that aside for a moment. Let‘s also
leave aside for a moment whether the rest of Africa respects us or
our position – or your position, rather – and will follow suit.
The point is the Al-Bashir matter was a breach of contract. An
international agreement is a contract between sovereign states and
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 257 of 376
it relies solely on those involved states keeping their word. In
other words, trust amongst sovereign states.
Now, we breached that contract. Whether we had good reason to do so
or not, is irrelevant. If we can breach the contract in that one
instance, what is the effect on the trust that other nations around
the world will have in South Africa with every single other contract
that we have, with every single treaty that we have? If we could
breach the contract or the treaty that we had, in the case of the
ICC, how can any other ally in the world, not only in Africa, trust
us again to keep our word with regard to any other treaty? Thank
you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, I am placed in a very awkward position with regard to
the hon member‘s comments, because in this matter, we are awaiting
the judgment and findings of the Supreme Court of Appeal. I am loath
to offer any comment at all on this matter, given that the Supreme
Court of Appeal is going to render its judgment in the next few
days. He says we‘re in breach. If the SCA rules tomorrow that we are
not, what does that say? This is why I am loath to offer a comment
or a response to the hon member.
Developments in Mountain Kingdom of Lesotho
23 FEBRUARY 2016
41.
PAGE: 258 of 376
Mr S G Mthimunye (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
What are the implications of the developments in the Mountain
Kingdom of Lesotho (details furnished) to the Southern African
Development Community-led South Africa‘s mediation efforts in
Lesotho?
CO72E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Madam Chairperson, the reply is as follows: As decided by the
Southern African Development Community, SADC, summit, the government
of Lesotho has presented the report of the SADC Commission of
Inquiry to the Lesotho Parliament and subsequently published it. It
is therefore expected that the government of Lesotho will implement
the recommendations of the report.
Through the facilitation of the hon Deputy President, Cyril
Ramaphosa, SADC is not only ready to assist the government of
Lesotho with the implementation of the recommendations of the
report, but remains committed to assist Lesotho to achieve peace and
stability, mainly through the implementation of the final report of
the facilitator, as it relates to constitutional, security and
public-sector reforms.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Madam Chair, Deputy Minister, amid our role as
mediator in the Lesotho Peace process, in any mediation you would
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 259 of 376
accept that not all the parties come out of the process satisfied
and happy with the outcomes of mediation. Will you confirm or not
confirm whether our diplomatic relations with Lesotho were still in
tact and good, amid our role as mediator in the Lesotho peace
process?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, to the hon Mthimunye, I confirm that our relationship
with Lesotho is as it always has been, extremely cordial. We are
very good neighbours with one another and nothing has changed. The
hon member is quite correct. During situations like this, tensions
will rise and things may even be said that are misunderstood, but
notwithstanding all that has happened, our relations with the
government and people of Lesotho remain as it always has been.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, South Africa is
undeniably a major power in Africa with a leading economy,
especially in the sub-Sahara of 33%. I just want to check why it is
so important for South Africa to participate in the peace-keeping
process of Lesotho.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chair, the reasons or the answer is pretty obvious. In response to
the hon Mohapi, firstly, we are a very committed member of the
Southern African Development Co-operation of SADC of which Lesotho
is also a loyal member state and inevitably, what happens to or in
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 260 of 376
Lesotho affects South Africa and vice versa. It is in our own
interest that the situation in our neighbouring countries is always
peaceful and prosperous.
Ms L MATHYS: Chair, can the Deputy Minister tell us why the Guptas
were kicked out of Lesotho.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chair, I have no answer to that question.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, at the SADC summit, on 15 September
2014, it was stated that SADC will reimburse South Africa with the
total that they spent on resources during the mediation efforts in
Lesotho. It was to the tune of R46 million and this was stated by
the Minister of International Relations during the oral question
session in the NA, late last year. It was posted by hon Stevens
Mokgalapa. I want to know whether we got this over R46 million. Did
SADC reimburse us or did they give us a promise on when they will
reimburse us with this money? As you stated, we are a committed
member to SADC. How committed are they towards us?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, again, I have to admit to the hon Julius that on this
particular matter, I don‘t have an answer. As to whether we have
been reimbursed or not, I can‘t say, but I certainly take his word.
I am not disputing that. I really don‘t ...
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 261 of 376
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Deputy
Minister, it is also not necessarily a question that arises from the
original question. Can we then ask hon Julius to put that in writing
so that we can get a response to that question? It is a question any
Member of Parliament has the right to ask. It just does not flow
naturally from the responses thus far from this one. So, please, put
it in writing so that it can be responded to.
Intervention in Burundi
6.
Mr M Chetty (KwaZulu-Natal: DA) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
Whether South Africa will participate in the peacekeeping
mission in Burundi; if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details?
CO36E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Madam Chair, our response is as follows: Yes, South Africa is
prepared to take part in the efforts to find peace and stability in
Burundi. As a former mediator in Burundi, South Africa remains ready
and we will continue to support the people of Burundi to achieve
stability and development. Pursuant to the African Union, AU,
Summit, South Africa has subsequently been invited - not only to
form part of the AU High-Level Delegation but also to lead the
mission.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 262 of 376
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon Deputy
Minister, it is important for South Africa to play a leading role in
progress and the defence of human rights on the continent. However,
has the Minister or the department consulted the Minister of Defence
as to the capacity of our armed forces, both in human and financial
terms to make this proposal possible and what was the outcome? Thank
you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Well, I think the intention is misunderstood by the hon member. The
intention of the high-level delegation is for five heads of state to
go to Burundi and sit down with the newly elected head of state of
Burundi and his government in order to persuade them and the
opposition party to come together and reach some kind of
understanding and agreement that will take the country forward.
The purpose of the high-level delegation is not to be followed by
soldiers carrying arms. So, I take it that the hon member has
misunderstood.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Thank you so much Deputy Minister for your answer.
Would you concede that based on your answer, Agenda 2063 has a
component that we call ‗silencing the guns‘ - which is quite
critical that in order for us to achieve the components of the 2063
objectives, we need to start by ‗silencing the guns‘ as a campaign?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 263 of 376
Would you concede that this initiative is also part of that
programme, moving forward?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: I
would agree with hon Nthebe; that is part of the Agenda 2063. As
long as we understand that it is in relation to groups like rebel
groups, criminals and pirates on our coasts and such like. So, my
answer in that regard is yes.
Ms L MATHYS: Hon Chair, there has been reports that the South
African government is providing or sending arms to Burundi. Can the
Deputy Minister go on record as saying that he has no knowledge of
government or any other entities in South Africa and that they are
supplying arms to Burundi to fuel the hundreds of thousands of
murders that are going on in Burundi at the moment and the hundreds
of thousands of refugees that are leaving the country as well.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, through you to the hon Mathys, to my mind there are no
arms that came from South Africa to Burundi from the moment the
conflict broke out. I do serve on the committee chaired by the hon
Jeff Radebe, which deals with arms sales and such like. I do know
that the minute the conflict broke out in Burundi, we insisted that
it should stop there and then.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 264 of 376
As to whether the arms sales prior to the conflict might have been
used; I am not in the position to answer that. That is my answer to
the hon member‘s question.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister,
like you have rightly said that it is important for South Africa to
be involved and also to play a leading role in brokering peace in
Africa and elsewhere in the world wherein we are, we are tasked to
do so.
What I would like to find out is whether your department and/or
government is prepared to also utilise the presence of other
heavyweights we have - especially the former post-1994 Presidents
and Deputy Presidents of our country like His Excellency, Thabo
Mbeki, His Excellency, Motlanthe and Her Excellency, Mlambo-Ngcuka?
Their experience can also help South Africa and Africa and the world
in ensuring that we get to our objectives smoothly.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon
Chairperson, through you to the hon Makue ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Khawula.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Khawula. My apologies. The answer is an emphatic yes. At present,
the hon former Deputy President, Thabo Mbeki, heads a task group or
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 265 of 376
task team of senior people in Africa to deal with the matter of
illicit outflows of finances from Africa.
Our hon President, Zuma was a key mediator in bringing about peace
in Burundi and that is probably why the Southern African Development
Community, SADC, felt that he should head the high-level delegation
that is going there to meet with President Pierre Nkurunziza. Yes,
undoubtedly, that is the way we do things here in Africa. There are
other former heads of state that are being used very productively in
that regard.
Permanent seat in UNSC
34.
Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
(1) What progress has been made in securing a permanent seat
for
South
Africa
(SA)
in
the
United
Nations
Security
Council;
(2)
what steps has SA taken to review signed corporate
international treaties to ensure that it benefits
therefrom?
CO65E
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 266 of 376
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
Hon Chairperson, our reply is as follows.
Firstly, the Security Council needs to be expanded in both
categories of membership, permanent and non-permanent, in order to
provide Africa, Latin America and Asia with the greater voice in the
body. To achieve this, the UN membership is engaged in
intergovernmental negotiations. In these negotiations, South Africa
forms part of the Africa group whose participation is governed by
the African common position or as it‘s commonly known Ezulwini
Consensus. This consensus calls for the expansion of the Security
Council from 15 to 26 members. It also calls for two permanent and
five non-permanent seats for Africa including the use of the veto.
Africa is represented in the negotiations by the committee of 10,
C10, establish by the Heads of State and Government of the African
Union, AU.
Hon Chairperson, it‘s important to note that the Ezulwini Consensus
does not address the question of which two African states will be
nominated for election to the permanent seats for Africa once the
Security Council is reformed. The reason for this is that the Africa
group wants a unified focus on achieving an expansion of the
Security Council, which is the only way to address the historically
injustice against Africa in its composition. Africa is of the view
that a premature campaign to identify the two African nominees would
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 267 of 376
detract from the urgency of reform and possibly lead to deep
divisions that will not serve Africa‘s needs.
South Africa remains committed to the Ezulwini Consensus and
actively participates in the United Nations, UN negotiations on the
basis of the African common position.
Hon Chair, the rest of my answer is rather lengthy and so for now I
will hold back and make that my response for now.
Ms T WANA: Thank you, Chairperson. I want to appeal to the Minister
on point number two because this question is aligned with the
corporate banking system whereas when the inflation is high at
Barclays Bank international, all those interests come back to us, at
the Amalgamated Banks of South Africa, Absa, and Standard Bank, all
these amalgamated banks. So, I wanted to understand how far can you
review those prices so that if those international banks have lost
their profits, they mustn‘t come and change our fiscus in South
Africa, in particular?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
I thought the question dealt with reform of the UN Security Council,
Madam Chair.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 268 of 376
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That question looks at corporate
international treaties.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
Alright. Hon Chairperson, presently at the UN Human Rights Council
in Geneva, there is a committee headed by Ecuador and South Africa.
It‘s task with looking at human rights and business. I would
imagine, Chairperson that the issues raised by the hon Wana will
fall into the work of that committee. We recently met with Ecuador‘s
ambassador to South Africa at her request because the council meets
in Geneva soon. And I have no doubt this matter will be raised there
very sharply. And so, it‘s not only the companies referred to by the
hon Wana. Presently in Ecuador, Chevron is responsible for huge oil
spillages in the same way that Royal Dutch Shell was responsible for
spillages in Nigeria. Ecuadorians are suffering enormously as ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Point of order. I am sorry I
disturbed you, Deputy Minister. Please proceed.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
... as a consequence of these spillages, but the government and
people of Ecuador are struggling to get Chevron to be held to
account. So, we agree with hon Wana, but it‘s not going to be an
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 269 of 376
easy process because multinational corporations have had it easy for
many years and they are not going to give up what they have enjoyed
over the years, and there is prove of that in our consultations and
negotiations with other member states. Thank you.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Deputy Minister, if South Africa garner enough
support from the permanent members in the Security Council to
support it‘s candidacy for a permanent seat whilst fighting the
reform of the UN Security Council because during a meeting of the UN
on 14 September, 2015, South Africa argued for the reform,
especially for the amendment to the UN Charter Article 108 of the
Charter. And South Africa was not supported by especially two
permanent states on the Security Council. And those are two Brazil,
Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics, countries that we have
strong allies with and economic ties with, and that is China and
Russia, did not support us. Did you make enough efforts to garner
support from them before this meeting? Can you maybe elaborate on
why are we still with the Brics countries if they are not supporting
us in this core thing that we are fighting for now? Thank you,
Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir. Deputy Minister!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
Hon Chairperson, to the hon Julius, well, it‘s not only Russia and
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 270 of 376
China that doesn‘t support us. The USA, with whom we have the
African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa, agreement, also doesn‘t
support us. Is the hon Julius then suggesting that we drop Agoa
because of the lack of support from the USA? National interest works
that way. For China and Russia, their national interest demand that
the UN Security Council stays as it is. In fact that is probably the
position of the all the five permanent members. So, we are engaged
in a very difficult struggle. It‘s not going to be easy. I am not
going to lie to anyone in this hon House. It‘s going to be extremely
difficult. I think the rest of the world realises that the UN
Security Council in its present form is not achieving anything. One
has to simply look at the conflicts taking place in the world today.
The UN Security Council is missing in action. It‘s nowhere to be
seen. And so, our effort at amending Article 108 of the Charter was
geared towards achieving just that. The way the UN Security Council
was ... its architecture is such that these five permanent members
are intended to remain as is forever. So, when those three men met
in Yalta, 70 years ago, that is what they probably discussed and
agreed to. So, the rest of the world then has to take stock and some
hard decisions are going to have to be made, but it‘s not going to
be easy. These five permanent members wield enormous power. But we
are convinced about our own position. We are convinced that Africa
deserves what is contained in the Ezulwini Consensus. We are also
convinced that Asia and Latin America deserve permanent seats on the
UN Security Council. And until then, it cannot be regarded as a
democratic institution, but of course, I don‘t think it ever was
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 271 of 376
intended to be democratic. So, to the hon Julius, that‘s the only
way I can respond to your question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Hon
Michalakis. [Interjections.] I take note of you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Minister, there those who will also
argue that expanding the veto right on the Security Council will
render it even lees effective. However, my question goes to the
reforms of the UN Security Council, which builds on the fact that we
are campaigning for or that your government is campaigning for a
permanent seat on this council. Now, you have indicated that part of
that campaign is to get the veto right for the African countries as
well as the other additional permanent seats. The Security Council
as you know has the right to refer any human rights violations to
the International Criminal Court, ICC. Now, if as indicated, most of
or all of the African countries withdraw from the ICC, what is your
government‘s opinion on the exercise of that veto right in those
instances where matters have to be referred to the ICC? The United
state has been criticised in the past by some African countries as
well for exercising the veto right in referring matters to the ICC.
Wouldn‘t it then be hypocritical for us when we get that right to
exercise that same right on the Security Council? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 272 of 376
Well, hon Chairperson, the hon member is quiet correct. I think it
goes without saying that the veto right used by the five permanent
members now has been abused. They are just absolutely not
embarrassed one little bit at using the veto right. So, you are
quiet correct. I would imagine, hon chairperson, that for us, this
will be a process whereby we get the five permanent members to
accept in principle that the UN Security Council in its present form
has to change. If that in principle decision can be taken or agreed
to, I believe that will lead to other important steps, and then the
whole question of the veto right can be up for discussion. So, yes,
I probably agree with you as to whether is hypocritical or not.
Well, presently, all five of them abuse the veto right. And so,
African states, Latin American states, Asian states will say well,
we believe we can do better.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Chair. Deputy Minister, I think this is critical
matter. In 2011, Ban Ki-moon, the UN head confirmed that this matter
of a council reform is long overdue. Just before the General Council
or General Assembly, an ambassador from US stated clearly that they
are opposed for the expansion of veto vote. And he went further to
say, they would agree in principle for a modest expansion. Can you
elaborate if it is possible on that?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (On
behalf of the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation):
Hon Chairperson, you see, there has been little or no movement on
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 273 of 376
the part of the UN Security Council since the three men met in
Yalta, 70 years ago, little or no movement. Very patronisingly and
paternalistically, they have agreed and said, okay, every so often a
member state from the UN can join the UN Security Council, no veto,
non-permanent. And then proudly announced, look how good we are too.
So, I can understand his Excellency, the Secretary-General, Ban Kimoon‘s frustration because I suspect in his own mind and his term of
office coming to an end now that he was hoping against all hope that
during his term of office, there will be some concrete real reform
of the UN Security Council. And so, it‘s probably why he said the
things that he did.
Human rights activists around the world
7.
Mr M Chetty (KwaZulu-Natal: DA) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
Why did South Africa vote against sending a draft
resolution supporting human rights activists around the
world to the United Nations General Assembly in November
2015?
CO37E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, I am going to ask yours and the hon
members‘ indulgence on this question. The hon Chetty refers to human
rights activists. Firstly, the correct phrase or word to use is
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 274 of 376
human rights defenders. Secondly, there was no vote against sending
a draft resolution. Therefore, the whole process in the question is
rather mixed up. In my response, through you hon Chairperson, I hope
to be in clarity on the matter. The official reply which I am going
to read is the following: The hon member should note that there was
no draft resolution entitled human rights activists around the world
that was sent to the United Nations, UN.
Official records of the plenary of the General Assembly at its 70th
session reflect that South Africa voted in favour of resolution on
human rights defenders. Now, the background to that is the
following: South Africa participated in the regular session of
United Nations General Assembly, Unga, 70 at the United Nations
General Assembly, in New York, between October and December 2015.
During this time, 251 resolutions were adopted either in plenary or
in the six main committees. The only resolution that presented
problems for South Africa was the draft resolution on the protection
of human rights defenders in the third committee. Procedural
difficulties at the committee stage resulted in South African not
supporting the draft resolution. Procedural difficulties involve the
sudden introduction of oral amendments from the floor by the main
sponsors of the resolution which did not afford our delegates an
opportunity to consult back home with the department hence they
normally do.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 275 of 376
Further consultation allowed South Africa to vote in favour of the
resolution at the plenary session. At the committee stage, South
Africa voted against. Between that committee stage and the plenary
and consultations, discussions and negotiations which normally take
place on the sidelines of the UN and flowing from those when the
matter reach plenary the resolution has been sufficiently amended
for South Africa to vote in favour.
Finally, South Africa remains committed to the protection of human
rights defenders all over the world.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon Deputy
Minister, last year I – myself – asked a question to your colleague
there, hon Minister of whether our foreign policy is still based on
the principles of human rights referring to our voting records over
the past two years at the United Nations. You might be aware of the
controversies around that. The hon Minister replied that it still
is. Let us give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment. You, as
the hon Deputy Minister and the hon Minister more than anyone in
this country, should know that much of diplomacy is based on
perceptions. How are you going to address the international
perception even if it is just among some of our ally countries that
South Africa is placing loyalty towards certain allies of the ANC
government above these principles of defending human rights?
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 276 of 376
It is further concerning that you mentioned that in the committee
stage, it was voted against the resolution due to the fact that we
did not have a brief or that consultation could not take place
whereas the correct step might have been to abstain rather than to
vote against it. Therefore, perceptions are created to some of our
allies and I would like your opinion as to how the department is
going to deal with those perceptions amongst some of our important
allies that have the perceptions that we are benefiting other allies
of the ANC government to the detriment of our record of defending
human rights. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, the member is quite correct. When
this matter was brought to my attention flowing from the hon
Chetty‘s tabling of question, I have here a little note which says:
One, why not abstain; and two, who took a decision to vote now?
Therefore, I share in the hon member‘s concerns. I have not as yet
received a response from the officials in the department, but I do
intend following up on it. As regards the perception and our friends
in the international community, we are in regular contact with them.
I have no doubt that by this time they now fully understand why we
went about it in the fashion that we did. It does not take away the
question that the hon member asked which is why not abstain instead
of voting no.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 277 of 376
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I just cannot resist asking this question
it follows-up from what the hon Michalakis has just indicated. I am
wondering whether this government is still committed to human rights
in this country, let alone the countries outside. Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Well, we are fully committed to human rights in this
country and outside it. I cannot stress that enough. That is my
short but pertinent answer to the hon Vawda.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, thank you for the indulgence for
the second time. Hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much for that
reply and for undertaking to follow it up. I am sure you will agree
that situations like this - regardless of the circumstance under
which they have happened - are extremely embarrassing for the
country. One would expect our diplomatic delegation to the United
Nations to be some of our most experience diplomats that South
Africa has to offer. With regards to your undertaking to follow this
up, could you make a further undertaking as to the consequences of
this decision – this voting record at the United Nations - should
you find that the correct procedures were not followed by our
diplomatic corps in the United Nations. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, I will do that although the brief
explanation I received was contained in my initial reply to the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 278 of 376
question which is that, during committee stage which takes place on
the floor, the sponsors of the resolution started moving amendments
orally. Normal procedure at the UN is that you share amendments with
other member states so that they in turn can engage you on those
amendments and make amendments to their amendments. When the
sponsors of the resolution started moving amendments orally – this
is how they explained to me – it then place our delegates in that
committee stage in a very awkward position because they could not
then say that hold on for a second, I need to go out and make a
phone call. I am wondering whether that was not deliberately done. I
agree with you. The obvious solution in that situation was to have
abstained.
Immigration crisis in Europe
47.
Ms Z V Ncitha (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
Whether
South
the
Africa
Southern
will
African
learn
any
Development
lessons
Community
from
the
and
current
immigration crisis in Europe; if not, why not; if so, what
are the relevant details?
CO78E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, the reply to the question is as
follows. There are lessons that may be learnt by both the Southern
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 279 of 376
African Development Community, SADC, and South Africa from the
current immigration crisis in Europe. It would appear that the root
causes of the current immigration crisis in Europe are caused by
socioeconomic as well as peace and security issues.
Over the years SADC has pursued regional integration with the
emphasis on political stability and economic integration through the
free trade area Regional Indicative Strategic Development Plan, as
well as SADC‘s industrialisation strategy. The SADC will have to
ensure that these strategies are implemented in order to achieve
political stability, economic development as well as prosperity.
South Africa will play her part in ensuring that these strategies
are implemented in order to promote regional economic value chains.
Thank you.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me firstly
thank the Minister for the response. I would like to make a follow
up to the question asked about the issue of strong regional
partnerships to sustain engagements on peace building. I just want
to know whether our country is involved in that. If so, what can we
again learn from those engagements?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Ncitha, yes we are engaged in constant discussions
with our SADC neighbours to ensure that we have strong regional
partnerships. The whole question of infrastructure development in
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 280 of 376
SADC is a case in point and so it is vital for all the countries of
the SADC region that SADC prospers and that SADC is peaceful. We
believe that it is only in that way that we can ensure that what is
happening in Europe doesn‘t happen here.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Thank you, Madam Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, does
integrated African development in your view address the problem of
the immigration of Africans to European countries, and in your
response can you reflect a little bit on the progress made in terms
of Agenda 2063 so far, in a sentence or so?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, yes I have to agree that integrated
African development is crucial to prosperity on our continent.
Agenda 2063, together with the project that is being placed in the
hands of our hon President, which is infrastructure development
across the continent ... all those things brought together are
designed towards addressing some of the key challenges which the
Europeans are facing today and which we must ensure never happen
here.
I take the point that the circumstances in Europe and the Middle
East are not quite the same but we can‘t rest on our laurels and sit
back and say, well it will never happen here because you just never
know.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 281 of 376
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members that was the last
supplementary question. I wish to thank you, Deputy Minister
Landers. It is sometimes difficult to expect Deputy Ministers to
deal adequately with supplementary questions. I must also say that
the House does appreciate very frank and honest responses and I
appreciate the fact that where you did not have the responses you
also ... [Inaudible.] ... telling us that that ... [Inaudible.] So I
want to thank you sir for the time and for the effort.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
The Council adjourned at 19:07.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
WEDNESDAY, 2 DECEMBER 2015
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Report on newly appointed member of Technology Innovation Agency Board
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 282 of 376
Report on the Newly Appointed Member of the Technology Innovation Agency Board in
terms of section 7(4) of the Technology Innovation Agency Act, 2008 (Act No 26 of 2008)
as amended.
Referred to the Select Committee on Communications and Public Enterprises for
consideration and report.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Government Notice No 1008, published in Government Gazette No 39320, dated 23
October 2015: Codes of Good Practice on Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, in
terms of section 9(1) of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act
No 53 of 2003).
(b)
General Notice No 1055, published in Government Gazette No 39378, dated 6 November
2015: Amended B-BBEE Verification Manual, published pursuant to the provisions of
Section 9(1) and 14(2) of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act
No 53 of 2003).
(c)
General Notice No 1160, published in Government Gazette No 39429, dated 20 November
2015: Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act No 53 of 2003 as amended by Act
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 283 of 376
46 of 2013: Codes of Good Practice on Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment:
Draft AgriBEE Sector Codes, in terms of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment
Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).
(d) Government Notice No 1031, published in Government Gazette No 39344, dated 30
October 2015: Notice regarding the maximum number of Casino licences that may be
granted throughout the republic, in terms of the National Gambling Act, 2004 (Act No 7 of
2004).
(e)
Government Notice No 1080, published in Government Gazette No 39379, dated 6
November 2015: Final Regulations on Review of Limitations on Fees and Interest Rates,
made in terms of Section 171(1) of the National Credit Act, 2005 (Act No 34 of 2005).
(f)
Government Notice No 1104, published in Government Gazette No 39407, dated 13
November 2015: Invitation for public comment on the Draft Credit Life Insurance
Regulations, in terms of section 171(1)(d)(ii) of the National Credit Act, 2005 (Act No 34
of 2005).
THURSDAY, 3 DECEMBER 2015
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
23 FEBRUARY 2016
1.
PAGE: 284 of 376
Referral of Bill to National House of Traditional Leaders
(1)
The Secretary to Parliament has, in accordance with section 18(1) of the Traditional
Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003 (Act No. 41 of 2003), referred the
Extension of Security of Tenure Amendment Bill [B 24 – 2015] (National Assembly –
sec 75) to the National House of Traditional Leaders, which must, within 30 days from the
date of the referral (2 January 2016), make any comments it wishes to make.
2.
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1)
The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
(a)
Higher Education Amendment Bill [B 36 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 75).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Government Notice No 1148, published in Government Gazette No 39430, dated 20
November 2015: Codes of Good Practice on Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment:
Amended Tourism Sector Code, in terms of section 9(1) of the Broad-Based Black
Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 285 of 376
National Council of Provinces
1.
The Chairperson
(a)
Progress Report on the intervention issued in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the
Constitution, 1996 Tomakana Local Municipality, Eastern Cape.
Referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration and report.
(b)
Termination of section 139(1)(a) Intervention issued to Mpofana Local Municipality,
Kwazulu-Natal.
Referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration and report.
(c)
Termination of section 139(1)(b) Intervention issued to Abaqulusi and Umvoti Local
Municipalities, Kwazulu-Natal.
Referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration and report.
(d)
Termination of section 139(1)(a) Intervention issued to Mtubatuba Local Municipality,
Kwazulu-Natal.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 286 of 376
Referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration and report.
(e)
Report on the Investigation conducted in terms of section 106(3)(a) of the Local
Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000) in Hlabisa Local
Municipality, Kwazulu-Natal.
Referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration and report.
FRIDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2015
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
(1)
Broadcasting Amendment Bill, 2015, submitted by the Minister of Communications.
Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications and the Select Committee on
Communications and Public Enterprises.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 287 of 376
TABLINGS
National Council of Provinces
1.
The Chairperson
(a)
Employment of Members of the South African National Defence Force in cooperation with
the South African Police Service during the second summit of the Forum on China Africa
Cooperation (FOCAC) 2015, which will be held in Sandton, Johannesburg.
Please see pages 6094-6095 of the ATCs.
Referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence.
TUESDAY, 8 DECEMBER 2015
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
(1)
Insurance Bill, 2015, submitted by the Minister of Finance.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 288 of 376
Referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.
WEDNESDAY, 9 DECEMBER 2015
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Referral to Committees of papers tabled
(1)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Communications and
Public Enterprises for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Eskom Holdings Soc Limited for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(b)
Integrated Report of Eskom Holdings Soc Limited for 2015.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Forestry Company Soc
(Limited) (Safcol) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(d)
PAGE: 289 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Alexkor Soc Limited for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
(2)
The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs:
(a)
Government Notice No 800, published in Government Gazette, No 39051, dated 3
August 2015: Invitation for public comment on draft Public Service Regulations
2015, issued in terms of section 41 of the Public Service Act, 1994 (promulgated
under Proclamation No 103 of 1994).
(3)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee of Finance:
(a)
Government Notice No R.343, published in Government Gazette, No 38729, dated
23 April 2015: Notice in terms of section 11D(6)(b) of the Act of certain categories
of research and development deemed to constitute the carrying on of research and
development, given in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).
(b)
Government Notice No R.344, published in Government Gazette, No 38730, dated
23 April 2015: Regulations in terms of paragraph (e) of definition of “research and
development” in section 11D (1) of the Act on criteria for clinical trials in respect of
deduction for research and development, made in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962
(Act No 58 of 1962).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 290 of 376
Government Notice No R.346, published in Government Gazette, No 38732, dated
23 April 2015: Regulations in terms of paragraph (d) of definition of “research and
development” in section 11D (1) of the Act on additional criteria for multisource
pharmaceutical products, made in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of
1962).
(d)
Government Notice No R.362, published in Government Gazette, No 38744, dated
28 April 2015: Regulations under items (a) and (c) of definition of “determined
value” in paragraph 7(1) of Seventh Schedule to Income Tax Act, 1962, on retail
market value in respect of right of use of motor vehicle, made in terms of the Income
Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).
(e)
Government Notice No 352, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Technical Changes to Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance
Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(f)
Government Notice No 353, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Technical Changes to Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance
Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(g)
Government Notice No 354, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Listing of Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance Management
Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(h)
PAGE: 291 of 376
Government Notice No 355, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Listing of Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance Management
Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(i)
Government Notice No 356, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Listing of Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance Management
Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(j)
Government Notice No 357, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Listing of Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance Management
Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(k)
Government Notice No 358, published in Government Gazette, No 38735, dated 30
April 2015: Listing of Public Entities in terms of the Public Finance Management
Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(l)
Government Notice No R.425, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated
22 May 2015: Amendment of rules (DAR/145) in terms of the Customs and Excise
Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(m) Government Notice No R.426, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated
22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/2/370) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(n)
PAGE: 292 of 376
Government Notice No R.427, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated
22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/33) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(o)
Government Notice No R.428, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated
22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1B/01) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(p)
Government Notice No R.429, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated
22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1C/40) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(q)
Government Notice No R.430, published in Government Gazette, No 38804, dated
22 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1D/03) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(r)
Government Notice No R.437, published in Government Gazette, No 38823, dated
29 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1517) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(s)
Government Notice No R.438, published in Government Gazette, No 38823, dated
29 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (No 6/1D/04) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(t)
PAGE: 293 of 376
Government Notice No R.445, published in Government Gazette, No 38834, dated
29 May 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1518) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(u)
Government Notice No R.457, published in Government Gazette, No 38845, dated 5
June 2015: Second publication of draft regulations made under sections 5(1) and
107(2) of the Financial Markets Act, 2012 (Act No 19 of 2012).
(v)
Government Notice No 461, published in Government Gazette, No 38844, dated 5
June 2015: Exemption in terms of section 74 of the Financial Intelligence Centre
Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).
(w) Government Notice No R.512, published in Government Gazette, No 38878, dated
19 June 2015: Amendment of rules (DAR/155) in terms of the Customs and Excise
Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(x)
Government Notice No R.533, published in Government Gazette, No 38891, dated
19 June 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1519) in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(y)
Government Notice No 541, published in Government Gazette, No 38906, dated 23
June 2015: Exemption of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality from Regulation
45(2)(a)(x) of Asset Transfer Regulations 2008, granted in terms of section 177(1)(b)
of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of
2003).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(z)
PAGE: 294 of 376
Government Notice No 546, published in Government Gazette, No 38916, dated 26
June 2015: Allocations to Metropolitan Municipalities of General Fuel Levy
Revenue in terms of item 3(2)(a) of Schedule 1 of the Taxation Laws Amendment
Act, 2009 (Act No 17 of 2009).
(aa) Government Notice No R.566, published in Government Gazette, No 38925, dated 3
July 2015: Amendment of rules (DAR/156) in terms of the Customs and Excise Act,
1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(bb) Government Notice No R.567, published in Government Gazette, No 38925, dated 3
July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (2/1/367) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(cc) Government Notice No R.568, published in Government Gazette, No 38925, dated 3
July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (3/1/709) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(dd) Government Notice No R.653, published in Government Gazette, No 39035, dated
31 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 6 (1/1/1520) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(ee) Government Notice No R.654, published in Government Gazette, No 39035, dated
31 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (1/1/1520) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(ff)
PAGE: 295 of 376
Government Notice No R.655, published in Government Gazette, No 39035, dated
31 July 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (2/1/368) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(gg) Government Notice No 722, published in Government Gazette, No 39100, dated 14
August 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (4/6/2) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(hh) Government Notice No 723, published in Government Gazette, No 39100, dated 14
August 2015: Amendment of Paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 in terms of section 74(3)(a)
the Value-Added Tax Act, 1964 (Act No 89 of 1991).
(ii)
Government Notice No 724, published in Government Gazette, No 39100, dated 14
August 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/6/3) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(4)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP292-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and Fiscal Commission (FFC) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 296 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Intelligence Centre for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Regulatory Board for Auditors
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP249-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Accounting Standards Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP206-2015].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Cooperative Banks for 2014-15.
(g)
Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for the year
ended 31 March 2015.
(5) The following paper is referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence for
consideration.
(a)
2015 Second Quarterly Report of the National Conventional Arms Control
Committee (NCACC) for April – June 2015, tabled in terms of section 23(1)(c) of
the National Conventional Arms Control Act, 2002 (Act No 41 of 2002).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(6)
PAGE: 297 of 376
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental
Affairs for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Land Bank for 2014-15, including the Report
of the Auditor-General on the Consolidated Financial Statements of the Land and
Agricultural Development Bank of South Africa (Land Bank) for 2014-15
[RP224-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 30 – Department of Environmental Affairs
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 30 for 2014-15 [RP327-2015].
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Biodiversity Institute
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Weather Service for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP242-2015].
(e) Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Parks (SANParks) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP143-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 298 of 376
(f) Report and Financial Statements of the iSimangaliso Wetland Park Authority for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(7)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice for
consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 22 – Department of Military Veterans for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 22 for 2014-15 [RP 146-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Public Protector South Africa for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(8)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Local Government Association
(Salga) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP165-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Demarcation Board (MDB) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP223-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 299 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent
(Misa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP141-2015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 39 (Previously Vote 6) – Department of
Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation for 2014-15, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote
39 (Previously Vote 6) for 2014-15 [RP 325-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Youth Development Agency
(NYDA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(9)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 35 – Department of Tourism for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 35 for 2014-15 [RP156-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of South African Tourism (SAT) for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 300 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 36 – Department of Trade and Industry for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 36 for 2014-15 [RP328-2015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP306-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Lotteries Commission for 2014-14,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 and the Financial Statements of the National
Lottery Distribution Trust Fund for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Credit Regulator (NCR) for 201415, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP14-2015].
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Consumer Tribunal for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of the Companies and Intellectual Property
Commission (CIPC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(i)
PAGE: 301 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Consumer Commission for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP219-2015].
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the Companies Tribunal for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Metrology Institute of South Africa
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP261-2015].
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Accreditation System
(SANAS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP218-2015].
(m) Report and Financial Statements of South African Bureau of Standards (SABS) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Regulator for Compulsory
Specifications (NRCS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP277-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(o)
PAGE: 302 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Export Credit Insurance Corporation of South
Africa (ECIC) Soc Ltd for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent
Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(p)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Empowerment Fund (NEF) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP157-2015].
(q)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the NonProliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction for the period April 2014 to 31 March
2015.
(r)
Report and Financial Statements of the Technology and Human Resources for
Industry Programme (THRIP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(10) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Communications and
Public Enterprises for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for Natural Scientific
Professions (SACNASP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent
Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(b)
PAGE: 303 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Academy of Science of South Africa (Assaf)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Research Foundation (NRF) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Scientific and Industrial
Research (CSIR) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 170-2015].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Advisory Council on Innovation for
2014-15.
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the Technology Innovation Agency (TIA) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(h)
PAGE: 304 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Space Agency
(Sansa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 307-2015].
(11) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration:
(a)
Integrated Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the Auditor-General of
South Africa for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 338-2015].
(12) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations for consideration:
(a)
Government Notice No 678, published in Government Gazette No 39066, dated 7
August 2015: Notice in terms of section 23 of the Counterfeit Goods Act, 1997 (Act
No 37 of 1997).
(b)
Progress Report on Implementation of the Industrial Policy Action Plan (IPAP) for
the year April 2014 – March 2015.
(13) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 305 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 18 – Department of Labour for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 18 for 2014-15 [RP221-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Unemployment Insurance Fund (UIF) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP154-2015].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of Productivity South Africa for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP314-2015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and
Arbitration (CCMA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 210-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Economic Development and Labour
Council (Nedlac) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2014-15.
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Compensation Fund for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
(14) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 306 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 10 – National Treasury for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 10 for 2014-15 [RP 232-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements on the Registrar of Friendly Societies for 2013 [RP
325-2014].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the Ombud for Financial Services
Providers for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the Pension Funds Adjudicator for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 139-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Public Investment Corporation (SOC)
Limited for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP 150-2015].
(f)
Report of the Office of the Tax Ombud for 2014-2015 [RP 352-2015].
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of Southern Africa
(DBSA) for 2014-15, including the Report Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(h)
PAGE: 307 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Revenue Service (Sars) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP208-2015].
(i)
Report and Financial Statements of the Government Pensions Administration
Agency for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the Co-operative Banks Development Agency for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP359-2015].
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Special Risk Insurance
Association SOC Ltd (Sasria) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent
Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(15) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice for
consideration:
(a)
Inter-Departmental and Institutional Annual Reports for 2014-15 on the
Implementation of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Related Matters)
Amendment Act, 2007 (Act No 32 of 2007).
(b)
Inter-Departmental and Institutional Annual Reports for 2014-15 on the
Implementation of the Child Justice Act, 2008 (Act No 75 of 2008).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 308 of 376
(16) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements on Vote 13 - Statistics SA for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information of Vote 13 for 2014-15 [RP160-2015] (Book 1) and [RP161-2015]
(Book 2).
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 12 – Department of Public Service and
Administration for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 12 for 2014-15 [RP2962015].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the National School of Government (NSG) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 and the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements and Performance Information on the National School of
Government (NSG) Training Trading Account for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Centre for Public Service Innovation for
2014-15 [RP171-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Government Employees Pension Scheme
(GEPS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(f)
PAGE: 309 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 11B – Office of the Public Service
Commission (PSC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP319-2015].
(17) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice for
consideration:
(a)
Government Notice No 737, published in Government Gazette No 39119, dated 21
August 2015: Regulations relating to prosecutors’ referral of suspected victims of
trafficking for assessment, made in terms of section 43(1)(a) of the Prevention and
Combating of Trafficking in Persons Act, 2013 (Act No 7 of 2013).
(18) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee of Economic and Business
Development for consideration:
(a)
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the
Government of the Democratic Republic of the Congo regarding the Cooperation in
the Field of Energy Resources, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
1996.
(19) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Communications and
Public Enterprises for consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 310 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 11 – Department of Public Enterprises for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 11 for 2014-15 [RP259-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of South African Express Airways SOC Limited for
2014-2015, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-2015.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 34 – Department of Science and
Technology for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 34 for 2014-15 [RP2882015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Advisory Council on Innovation for
2014-15.
(20) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice for
consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 25 – Department of Police for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 25 for 2014-15 [RP201-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 23 – Independent Police Investigative
Directorate (IPID) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 311 of 376
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 23 for 2014-15 [RP2932015].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Private Security Industry Regulatory
Authority (Psira) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
An Analysis of the National Crime Statistics for 2014-15: Addendum to the South
African Police Service (SAPS) Annual Report [RP202-2015].
(e)
Annual Report for the period 1 April 2014 to 31 March 2015 of the Office of the
Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI) Judge.
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Civilian Secretariat for Police for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP321-2015].
(g) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 22 – Department of Defence for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 22 for 2014-15 [RP309-2015].
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of the Armaments Corporation of South Africa SOC
Limited (Armscor) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Group Financial Statements and Performance Information For 2014-15 [RP1582015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(i)
PAGE: 312 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Castle Control Board for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP45-2015].
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 24 – Department of Justice and
Constitutional Development for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 24 for
2014-15 [RP341-2015].
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of the Guardian’s Fund for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP342-2015].
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the President’s Fund for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP343-2015].
(m) Report and Financial Statements of the Third Party Funds for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP344-2015].
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP164-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(o)
PAGE: 313 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Legal Aid South Africa for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP140-2015].
(p)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Human Rights Commission
(SAHRC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP360-2015].
(q)
Annual Report of the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) on the
Promotion of Access to Information Act (PAIA) for 2014-15.
(r)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 21 – Department of Correctional Services
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 21 for 2014-15[RP331-2015].
(s)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Debt Collectors for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(t)
Report on Activities of South African Law Reform Commission for 2014-15.
(u)
Report and Financial Statements of the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional
Services for 2014-15 [RP211-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(v)
PAGE: 314 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Board for Sheriffs for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(21) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Small Enterprise Development Agency
(Seda) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP310-2015].
(b)
Small Enterprise Development Agency Technology Programme Annual Review for
2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Small Enterprise Finance Agency SOC
Limited (Sefa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(22) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Communications and
Public Enterprises for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Broadcasting Corporation
(SOC) Limited (SABC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(b)
PAGE: 315 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Communications Authority of
South Africa (Icasa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Film and Publication Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of Brand South Africa for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP235-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 9 – Government Communication and
Information System (GCIS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 9 for
2014-15 [RP322-2015].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Media Development and Diversity Agency
(MDDA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 27 – Department of Communications for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 27 for 2014-15 [RP265-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(h)
PAGE: 316 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Universal Service Access Fund of South
Africa (USAF) for 2014-15, including the Reports of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP281-2015].
(i)
Report and Financial Statements of the Universal Service and Access Agency
(USAASA) for 2014-15, including the Reports of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2014-15 [RP280-2015].
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the State Information Technology Agency (SOC)
Limited (Sita) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP151-2015].
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of Sentech SOC Limited for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP318-2015].
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Electronic Media Institute of South
Africa (Nemisa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(m) Report and Financial Statements of the ZA Domain Name Authority (ZADNA) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 317 of 376
(23) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation
for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 17 – Department of Higher Education and
Training for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information of Vote 17 for 2014-15 [RP269-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 15 – Department of Basic Education for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 15 for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Education Labour Relations Council (ELRA)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP159-2015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for Educators (SACE)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP220-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Quality Assurance in General and
Further Education and Training – Umalusi for 2014-15, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(f)
PAGE: 318 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Agriculture Sector Education and Training
Authority (Agri-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP193-2015].
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the Banking Sector Education and Training
Authority (Bank-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP185-2015].
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of Culture, Arts, Tourism, Hospitality and Sport
Sector Education and Training Authority (Caths-Seta) for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP188-2015].
(i)
Report and Financial Statements of Construction Education and Training Authority
(CETA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council on Higher Education (CHE) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of the Chemical Industries Education and Training
Authority (Chieta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP200-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(l)
PAGE: 319 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Education Training and Development Practices
Sector Education and Training Authority (ETDP-Seta) for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP180-2015].
(m) Report and Financial Statements of the Energy and Water Sector Education and
Training Authority (EW-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 201415[RP318-2015].
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and Accounting Services Sector
Education and Training Authority (FASSET) for 2014-15, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15 [RP183-2015].
(o)
Report and Financial Statements of the Food and Beverages Manufacturing Industry
Sector Education and Training Authority (Foodbev-Seta) for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
(p)
Report and Financial Statements of the Fibre Processing and Manufacturing Sector
Education and Training Authority (FP&M-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15 [RP196-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(q)
PAGE: 320 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Health and Welfare Sector Education and
Training Authority (HW-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15
[RP190-2015].
(r)
Report and Financial Statements of the Insurance Sector Education and Training
Authority (Inseta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP186-2015].
(s)
Report and Financial Statements of the Manufacturing, Engineering and Related
Services Sector Education and Training Authority (MER-Seta) for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(t)
Report and Financial Statements of the Media, Information and Communication
Technologies Sector Education and Training Authority (MICT-Seta) for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP182-2015].
(u)
Report and Financial Statements of the Mining Qualifications Authority (MQA) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP197-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(v)
PAGE: 321 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme
(NSFAS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(w) Report and Financial Statements of the Quality Council for Trades and Occupations
(QCTO) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(x)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Qualifications Authority
(SAQA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(y)
Report and Financial Statements of the Safety and Security Sector Education and
Training Authority (SAS-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(z)
Report and Financial Statements of the Local Government Sector Education and
Training Authority (LG-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15
[RP192-2015].
(aa) Report and Financial Statements of the Transport Education and Training Authority
(TETA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP184-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 322 of 376
(bb) Report and Financial Statements of the Public Service Sector Education and Training
Authority (PSETA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(cc) Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and Retail Sector Education and
Training Authority (W&R-Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15
[RP229-2015].
(dd) Report and Financial Statements of the National Skills Fund (NSF) for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP266-2015].
(ee) Report and Financial Statements of the Services Sector Education and Training
Authority (Services Seta) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General
on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP1872015].
(24) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations:
(a)
Government Notice No 710, published in Government Gazette No 39091, dated 13
August 2015: Correction to the compulsory specification for energy efficiency and
labeling of electrical and electronic apparatus (VC 9008), published by Government
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 323 of 376
Notice R944 of 28 November 2014, in terms of section 13(1)(a) of the National
Regulator for Compulsory Specification Act, 2008 (Act No 5 of 2008).
(b)
Government Notice No 756, published in Government Gazette No 39127, dated 21
August 2015: Suspension of the Affordability Assessment Regulations of the
National Credit Regulations, 2015.
(c)
Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on Trade and Industrial Cooperation
between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
Republic of Botswana, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of South
Africa, 1996.
(d)
Explanatory Memorandum on the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on Trade
and Industrial Cooperation between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Republic of Botswana.
(25) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Social Services for
consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP251-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(b)
PAGE: 324 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Government Printing Works for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2014-15
[RP279/2015].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 4 – Department of Home Affairs for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 4 for 2014-15 [RP168-2015].
(26) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Mineral
Resources for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Perishable Products Export Control Board
(PPECB) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Veterinary Council for 201415, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Ncera Farms SOC Ltd for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(d)
PAGE: 325 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Marine Living Resources Fund (MLRF) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Agricultural Marketing Council
(NAMC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP290-2015].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Agricultural Research Council (ARC) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP169-2015].
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the Onderstepoort Biological Products SCO Ltd
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
for 2014-15.
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 26 - Department of Agriculture, Forestry
and Fisheries for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 26 for 2014-15 [RP3452015].
(27) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Social Services for
consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 326 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Home Builders Registration Council
(NHBRC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Estate Agency Affairs Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Housing Development Agency for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Urban Reconstruction and Housing
Agency (Nurcha) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on
the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Social Housing Regulatory Authority for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Rural Housing Loan Fund (RHLF) for 201415, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(g)
PAGE: 327 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Housing Finance Corporation SOC
Ltd (NHFC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements for 2014-15.
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of the Community Scheme Ombud Services
(CSOS) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP283-2015].
(i)
Report and Financial Statements of the Thubelisha Homes NPC (in Liquidation) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 31 – National Department of Human
Settlements for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 31 for 2014-15 [RP2362015].
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 42 – Department of Water and Sanitation
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 42 for 2014-15 [RP291-2015].
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority (TCTA) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP280-2014].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(m)
PAGE: 328 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research Commission for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP155-2015].
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of Inkomati-Usuthu Catchment Management
Agency for 2014-2015, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-2015 [RP305-2015].
(o)
Report and Financial Statements of Breede-Gouritz Catchment Management Agency
for 2014-2015, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-2015 [RP211-2015].
(p)
Annual Review of the National Institute for Communicable Diseases (NCID) for
2014-15 [RP272-2015].
(q)
Annual Review of the National Institute for Occupational Health (NIOH) for
2014-15.
(r)
Academic Review for 2014-15.
(s)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 16 – Department of Health for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 16 for 2014-15 [RP333-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(t)
PAGE: 329 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Medical Research Council
(MRC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(u)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Medical Schemes for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP91-2014].
(v)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Health Laboratory Service (NHLS)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP270-2015].
(w)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 19 – Department of Social Development for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 19 for 2014-15 [RP323-2015].
(x)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Social Security Agency
(Sassa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP252-2015].
(28) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation
for consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 330 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 14 – Department of Arts and Culture for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 14 for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Afrikaans Language Museum and Language
Monument for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP68-2015].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Iziko Museums of South Africa for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP142-2015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the National English Literary Museum for 201415, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP295-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the KwaZulu-Natal Museum for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP284-2015].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Msunduzi (Incorporating the Voortrekker
Complex) Museum for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP235-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(g)
PAGE: 331 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Museum - Bloemfontein for 201415, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP243-2015].
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of the Ditsong Museums of South Africa for 201415, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP230-2015].
(i)
Report and Financial Statements of the Robben Island Museum for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP246-2015].
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the War Museum of the Boer Republics for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP301-2015].
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of the William Humphreys Art Gallery for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the Freedom Park for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP204-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(m)
PAGE: 332 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Heritage Council for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP326-2015].
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Film and Video Foundation for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP258-2015].
(o)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Arts Council of South Africa for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-14 [RP254-2015].
(p)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Heritage Resources Agency
(SAHRA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP176-2015].
(q)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Library for the Blind for 201415, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP222-2015].
(r)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Library of South Africa for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP263-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(s)
PAGE: 333 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Artscape for 2014-15, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15 [RP320-2015].
(t)
Report and Financial Statements of the Market Theatre Foundation for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP213-2015].
(u)
Report and Financial Statements of the Performing Arts Centre of the Free State for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP275-2015].
(v)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African State Theatre for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP64-2015].
(w)
Report and Financial Statements of The Playhouse Company for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP203-2015].
(x)
Report and Financial Statements of the Windybrow Theatre for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP214-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(y)
PAGE: 334 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Luthuli Museum for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
(z)
Report and Financial Statements of the Nelson Mandela Museum for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP282-2015].
(aa)
Report and Financial Statements of the Pan South African Language Board
(PanSALB) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP216-2015].
(bb) Report and Financial Statements of the Blind SA for 2014-15, including the Report
of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP226-2015].
(cc)
Report and Financial Statements of Business and Arts South Africa for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(29) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 335 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 29 – Department of Energy for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 29 for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Central Energy Fund (SOC) Limited Group
of Companies (CEF) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of the Central Energy Fund
(SOC) Limited Group of Companies for 2014-15 [RP260-2015].
(c)
Annual Financial Statements of the Central Energy Fund (SOC) Limited Group of
Companies (CEF) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General and the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of
the Central Energy Fund (SOC) Limited Group of Companies for 2014-15 [RP2602015] (Volumes 1 and 2).
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Energy Development
Institute (Sanedi) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP244-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Energy Regulator of South Africa
(Nersa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP262-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(f)
PAGE: 336 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the National Nuclear Regulator (NNR) for 201415, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP313-2015].
(30) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 5 – Department of International Relations
and Cooperation for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 5 for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the African Renaissance and International
Cooperation Fund for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(31) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Mineral
Resources for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 32 – Department of Mineral Resources for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information of Vote 32 for 2014-15 [RP297-2015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Geoscience for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP179-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 337 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Mineral Technology (Mintek) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Diamond and Precious Metals
Regulator for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP332-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the State Diamond Trader for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP225-2015].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Mine Health and Safety Council (MHSC) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP12-2013].
(g)
Report of the Mine Health and Safety Inspectorate for 2014-15 [RP335-2015].
(32) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation
for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 20 – Department of Sport and Recreation
South Africa for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 20 for 2014-15 [RP3122015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(b)
PAGE: 338 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Boxing South Africa for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Institute for Drug-Free Sport
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
for 2014-15.
(33) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs for consideration:
(a)
Reports and Financial Statements of Vote 3 – Department of Cooperative
Governance and Department of Traditional Affairs for 2014-15, including the
Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information of Vote 3 for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for the Promotion and
Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRL
Rights Commission) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP334-2015].
(c)
Report of the National Disaster Management Centre for 2014-2015.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(d)
PAGE: 339 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 43 – Department of Women for 2014 – 15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 43 for 2014-15 [RP139-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Commission on Gender Equality (CGE) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Development Agency (NDA) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP38-2015].
(34) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 28 – Department of Economic
Development for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 28 for 2014-15 [RP2792015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the International Trade Administration
Commission of South Africa (ITAC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 201415[RP329-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 340 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Commission for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP300-2015].
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Tribunal for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
information for 2014-15 [RP302-2015].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Industrial Development Corporation of South
Africa Limited (IDC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors
on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the Architectural
Profession (SACAP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors
on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council for the Built Environment (CBE) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of the Construction Industry Development Board
(CIDB) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP256-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(i)
PAGE: 341 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Development Trust (IDT) for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP231-2015].
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the Property
Valuers Profession (SACPVP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent
Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-2015.
(k)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the Landscape
Architectural Profession (SACLAP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15.
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the Quantity
Surveying Profession (SACQSP) for 2014-15, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15.
(m) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for the Project and
Construction Management Professions (SACPCMP) for 2014-15, including the
Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-2015.
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of Agrément South Africa (ASA) for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(o)
PAGE: 342 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 37 – Department of Transport for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 37 for 2014-15 [RP303-2015].
(p)
Report and Financial Statements of the Driving Licence Card Account for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2014-15.
(q)
Report and Financial Statements of the Road Traffic Infringement Agency (RTIA)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP108-2014].
(r)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Roads Agency
Limited (Sanral) SOC Limited for 2014-15, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15
[RP253-2015].
(s)
Reports and Financial Statements of the Cross-Border Road Transport Agency (CBRTA) for 2014-15, including the Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(t)
Report and Financial Statements of the Road Accident Fund for 2014-15, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2014-15 [RP275-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(u)
PAGE: 343 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Road Traffic Management Corporation
(RTMC) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP166-2015].
(v)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Search and Rescue
Organisation for 2014-15.
(w) Reports and Financial Statements of the Ports Regulator of South Africa for 201415, including the Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP215-2015].
(x)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Maritime Safety Authority
(including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Maritime Fund) for 2014-15,
including the Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP315-2015].
(y)
Report and Financial Statements of the Railway Safety Regulator for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP286-2015].
(z)
Report and Financial Statements of the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa
(Prasa) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 344 of 376
(aa) Annual Financial Statements of Autopax Passenger Services (SOC) Limited for
2014-15.
(bb) Report and Financial Statements of Intersite Asset Investments (SOC) Limited for
2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(cc) Financial Report of the Air Traffic and Navigation Services Company Limited
(ATNS) SOC Limited for 2014-2015, including the Report of the Independent
Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(dd) Integrated Report and Financial Statements of the Air Traffic and Navigation
Services Company Limited (ATNS) SOC Limited for 2014-2015.
(ee) Sustainability Report of the Air Traffic and Navigation Services Company Limited
(ATNS) SOC Limited for 2014-2015.
(ff)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Civil Aviation Authority
(SACAA) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP255-2015].
(gg) Integrated Report and Financial Statements of the Airports Company of South Africa
SOC Limited and its subsidiaries for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 345 of 376
(hh) Consolidated Annual Financial Statements of the Airports Company of South Africa
SOC Limited and its subsidiaries for 2014-15, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2014-15.
(ii)
Report of the Railway Safety Regulator for 2014-15 on the State of Safety [RP 2872015].
(35) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Mineral
Resources for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 33 – Department of Rural Development
and Land Reform for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 33 for 2014-15 [RP3572015].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Ingonyama Trust Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP148-2015].
(c)
Report of the Communal Property Associations for 2014-2015, tabled in terms of
section 17 of the Communal Property Associations Act, 1996 (Act No 28 of 1996).
TUESDAY, 26 JANUARY 2016
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 346 of 376
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Recommendation of candidates for appointment to NYDA board
(1)
A letter dated 23 January 2016 has been received from the Minister of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation, requesting Parliament to recommend seven candidates for
appointment to the board of the National Youth Development Agency in terms of section 9
of the National Youth Development Agency Act, 2008 (No 54 of 2008).
Referred to the Select Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional
Affairs for consideration and report.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)
Annual Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for the financial year
ending 31 March 2015.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 347 of 376
Please see pages 3-66 of the ATCs.
2.
The Minister of Police
(a)
Report of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate for the period April 2015 –
September 2015, tabled in terms of section 9(n) of the Independent Police Investigative
Directorate Act, 2011 (Act No 1 of 2011).
3.
The Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Post Office SOC Limited (SAPO)
for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
4.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Protocol Amending the Marrakesh Agreement establishing the World Trade Organisation
(WTO), including Annex 1A on the Agreement on Trade Facilitation, and Establishment of
the National Committee on Trade Facilitation, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
Constitution, 1996.
(b)
Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol Amending the Marrakesh Agreement
establishing the World Trade Organisation (WTO), including Annex 1A on the Agreement
on Trade Facilitation, and Establishment of the National Committee on Trade Facilitation.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 348 of 376
National Council of Provinces
1.
The Chairperson
(a)
Statement issued in terms of section 106(1)(a) of the Local Government: Municipal
Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000), on allegations of fraud, corruption or any other
serious malpractices within Govan Mbeki Local Municipality, Mpumalanga.
Referred to the Select Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration.
(b)
Notice of extension of Intervention issued in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution,
1996 to Matlosana Local Municipality, North West.
Referred to the Select Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs
for consideration and report.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
1.
Report of the Select Committee on Social Services on the Local Government: Municipal
Electoral Amendment Bill [B22B-2015] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 25 January
2016:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 349 of 376
The Select Committee on Social Services, having considered the subject of the Local
Government: Municipal Electoral Amendment Bill [B22B-2015] (National Assembly – sec 75),
referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
Report to be considered.
THURSDAY, 28 JANUARY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Assent by President in respect of Bills
(1)
Agrément South Africa Bill [B 3B – 2015] – Act No 11 of 2015 (assented to and signed
by President on 13 December 2015).
(2)
Finance Bill [B 31 – 2015] – Act No 19 of 2015 (assented to and signed by President on
13 December 2015).
(3)
New Development Bank Special Appropriation Bill [B 32 – 2015] – Act No 20 of 2015
(assented to and signed by President on 13 December 2015).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(4)
PAGE: 350 of 376
Disaster Management Amendment Bill [B 10D – 2015] – Act No 16 of 2015 (assented
to and signed by President on 13 December 2015).
(5)
Defence Laws Repeal and Amendment Bill [B 7 – 2015] – Act No 17 of 2015 (assented
to and signed by President on 13 December 2015).
(6)
Criminal Matters Amendment Bill [B 20B – 2015] – Act No 18 of 2015 (assented to and
signed by President on 13 December 2015).
(7)
Protection of Investment Bill [B 18B – 2015] – Act No 22 of 2015 (assented to and
signed by President on 13 December 2015).
(8)
Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill [B 6D – 2014] – Act No 14 of 2015
(assented to and signed by President on 24 December 2015).
(9)
Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill [B 30 – 2015] – Act No 23 of 2015 (assented
to and signed by President on 24 December 2015).
(10) Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 2B – 2015] – Act No 24 of 2015 (assented to and
signed by President on 24 December 2015).
(11) Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 29B – 2015] – Act No 25 of 2015 (assented to and
signed by President on 24 December 2015).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 351 of 376
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Environmental Affairs
(a)
Government Notice No 1030, published in Government Gazette No 39343, dated 30
October 2015: Amendment to Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations, 2014 and
Listing Notices 1, 2 and 3 of 2014, made under Sections 24(2), 24(5) and 44, read with
Section 47 of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).
(b)
Government Notice No 1033, published in Government Gazette No 39347, dated 30
October 2015: Format and procedure for the nomination of world heritage sites in the
Republic of South Africa, made under Section 6 of the World Heritage Convention Act,
1999 (Act No 49 of 1999).
(c)
Government Notice No 1073, published in Government Gazette No 39379, dated 6
November 2015: Notice declaring the DWESA CWEBE Marine Protected Area under
section 22A of the National Environmental Management: Protected Areas Act, 2003 (Act
No 57 of 2003).
(d)
Government Notice No 1074, published in Government Gazette No 39379, dated 6
November 2015: Regulations for the DWESA CWEBE Marine Protected Area, in terms of
Sections 48A(2) and 86(1)(a), (b), (c) and (d) of the National Environmental Management:
Protected Areas Act, 2003 (Act No 57 of 2003).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(e)
PAGE: 352 of 376
General Notice No 965, published in Government Gazette No 39268, dated 9 October
2015: Biodiversity Economy Strategy, published in terms of section 100 of the National
Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004 (Act No 10 of 2004).
2.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Government Notice No R. 742, published in Government Gazette No 39126, dated 21
August 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/1/710), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(b)
Government Notice R. 743, published in Government Gazette No 39126, dated 21 August
2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1521), in terms of the Customs and Excise
Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(c)
Government Notice R. 601, published in Government Gazette No 39219, dated 18
September 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1522), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(d)
Government Notice R. 602, published in Government Gazette No 39219, dated 18
September 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/1/711), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(e)
Government Notice R. 894, published in Government Gazette No 39235, dated: 25
September 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1523), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(f)
PAGE: 353 of 376
Government Notice R. 895, published in Government Gazette No 39235, dated 25
September 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1524), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(g)
Government Notice R. 990, published in Government Gazette No 39300, dated 16 October
2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/1/712), in terms of the Customs and Excise
Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(h)
Government Notice R. 1027, published in Government Gazette No 39340, dated 30
October 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1525), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(i)
Government Notice No R. 1028, published in Government Gazette No 39340, dated 30
October 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/1/370), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(j)
Government Notice No R. 614, published in Government Gazette No 39375, dated 6
November 2015: Determination of Amounts for purposes of the Act, in terms of the
Military Pensions, 1976 (Act No 84 of 1976).
(k)
Government Notice No R. 615, published in Government Gazette No 39375, dated 6
November 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/1/371), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(l)
PAGE: 354 of 376
Government Notice No R. 601, published in Government Gazette No 39478, dated 4
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1528), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(m) Government Notice No R. 1214, published in Government Gazette No 39502, dated 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/2/371)in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(n)
Government Notice No R. 1215, published in Government Gazette No 39502, 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/1/372), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(o)
Government Notice No R. 1216, published in Government Gazette No 39502, 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1526), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(p)
Government Notice No R. 1217, published in Government Gazette No 39502, 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 5 (No 5/3/109), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(q)
Government Notice No R. 1218, published in Government Gazette No 39502, 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/1/714), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(r)
PAGE: 355 of 376
Government Notice No R. 1219, published in Government Gazette No 39502, 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/5/2), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(s)
Government Notice No R. 1220, published in Government Gazette No 39502. 11
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1527) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(t)
Government Notice No R. 1245, published in Government Gazette No 39525, 18
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/2/372) in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(u)
Government Notice No R. 1246, published in Government Gazette No 39526, dated 18
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/1/373)), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(v)
Government Notice No R. 1247, published in Government Gazette No 39527, dated 18
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/1/715)), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(w)
Government Notice No 1262, published in Government Gazette No 39538, dated 18
December 2015: Regulations in terms of paragraph 12D(5)(b) of Seventh Schedule to
Income Tax Act, 1962, on information to be contained in contribution certificates, in terms
of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No. 58 of 1962).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(x)
PAGE: 356 of 376
Government Notice No R. 1265, published in Government Gazette No 39539, dated 18
December 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1532), in terms of the Customs
and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(y)
Government Notice No R. 1294, published in Government Gazette No 39569, dated 31
December 2015: Amendment of Rules, in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act
No 91 of 1964).
(z)
Government Notice No R. 17, published in Government Gazette No 39582, dated 07
January 2016: Regulations in terms of paragraph 12D(5)(a) of Seventh Schedule to Income
Tax Act, 1962, on Determination of Fund Member Category Factor
,in terms of the
Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No. 58 of 1962).
(aa)
Government Notice No R. 1159, published in Government Gazette No 39434, dated 20
November 2015: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/1/713), in terms of the Customs and
Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
3.
The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services
(a)
Regulations setting out criteria to be applied in the determination of the judicial
establishment of the Supreme Court of Appeal and divisions of the High Court of South
Africa, submitted in terms of section 49(2) of the Superior Courts Act, 2013 (Act No 10
of 2013).
WEDNESDAY, 3 FEBRUARY 2016
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 357 of 376
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Calling of Joint Sitting
CALLING OF JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT
The Speaker of the National Assembly, Ms B Mbete, and the Chairperson of the National
Council of Provinces, Ms T R Modise, in terms of Joint Rule 7(2), have called a joint sitting of
the Houses of Parliament to conduct a debate on the President’s State-of-the-nation Address on
16 February and 17 February 2016 at 14:00, respectively and the President will reply to the
debate on 18 February also at 14:00.
B MBETE MP
T R MODISE MP
SPEAKER OF THE
CHAIRPERSON OF THE
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF
PROVINCES
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 358 of 376
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Report of the Registrar of Pension Funds for 2014 [RP 370 -2015].
FRIDAY, 5 FEBRUARY 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Minister of Science and Technology
(a)
Government Notice No 1166, published in Government Gazette No 39442, dated 23
November 2015: Notice of intenion to make regulations on the protection of the Karoo
Central Astronomy Advantage Areas, in terms of section 9(1) and (2) of the Astronomy
Geographic Advantage Act, 2007 (Act No 21 of 2007).
(b)
Government Notice No 11229, published in Government Gazette No 39505, dated 11
December 2015: Regulations on the protection of the Karoo Central Astronomy Advantage
Areas, made in terms of sections 50 to 52 of the Astronomy Geographic Advantage Act,
2007 (Act No 21 of 2007).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 359 of 376
National Council of Provinces
1.
The Chairperson
(a)
Report of the Financial and Fiscal Commission on the International BRICS Conference
held on 15-16 November 2015 at the University of the Western Cape (UWC) – Bellville,
South Africa.
To be referred to the Select Committee on Appropriations and Select Committee on
Finance for consideration.
(b)
Consolidated Annual Municipal Performance Report for 2013/2014, in terms of Local
Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000), Mpumalanga.
MONDAY, 8 FEBRUARY 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a) Memorandum of Understanding on Economic and Technical Co-operation between the
Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of Liberia, tabled in terms of
section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 360 of 376
(b) Explanatory Memorandum on the Memorandum of Understanding on Economic and
Technical Co-operation between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the
Republic of Liberia.
(c) General Notice No 1175, published in Government Gazette No 39456, dated 27 November
2015: B-BBEE Codes of Good Practice: For public comment: African Exploration Mining
and Finance Corporation Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Facilitator Status.
(d) General Notice No 1176, published in Government Gazette No 39456, dated 27 November
2015: B-BBEE Codes of Good Practice: For public comment: Industrial Development
Corporation (IDC) Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Facilitator Status.
WEDNESDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Environmental Affairs
(a)
Regulations pertaining to the appointment of a registration authority responsible for
the registration of environmental assessment practitioners, and to the specification of
tasks in relation to an application for environmental authorisation that may only be
performed by a registered environmental practitioner, submitted for tabling on 10
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 361 of 376
December 2015 in terms of section 47(2) of the National Environmental
Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).
(b)
Regulations pertaining to the financial provision for prospecting, exploration, mining
or production operations, submitted for tabling on 10 December 2015 in terms of
section 47(2) of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of
1998.
(c)
General Notice No 989, published in Government Gazette No 39287, dated 13
October 2015: National Environmental Management Laws Amendment Bill, 2015,
published for public comment.
(d)
General Notice No 986, published in Government Gazette No 39297, dated 16
October 2015: Environmental Impact Assessment Guidelines for Renewable Energy,
published for implementation in terms of section 24J of the National Environmental
Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).
(e)
General Notice No 1008, published in Government Gazette No 39324, dated 23
October 2015: Notice of intent to publish the National Social Infrastructure
Guideline under section 24J of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998
(Act No 107 of 1998).
2.
The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 362 of 376
Government Notice No R. 26, published in Government Gazette No 39595, dated 14
January 2016: Regulations on the criteria for the determination of the judicial
establishment of the Supreme Court of Appeal and Divisions of the High Court of
South Africa, 2015 in terms of section 49(1)(b) and tabled in terms of section 49(2)
of the Superior Courts Act, 2013 (Act No 10 of 2013
(b)
Inter-Departmental Annual Report (Department of Basic Education) for 2014-15 on
the Implementation of the Child Justice Act, 2008 (Act No 75 of 2008).
(c)
Revised Draft Rules, 2016, submitted to Parliament on 10 February 2016, rules of
procedure for application to court in terms of the Promotion of Access to Information
Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).
FRIDAY, 12 FEBRUARY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1)
The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 363 of 376
Insurance Bill [B 1 – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 75).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Government Notice No 157, published in Government Gazette No 39663, dated 4
February 2016: Amendment to the regulations for matters relating to the functions of the
tribunal and rules for the conduct of matters before the National Consumer Tribunal, in
terms of section 171(1)(c) of the National Credit Act, 2005 (Act No 34 of 2005) and
section 120(1)(c) of the Consumer Protection Act, 2008 (Act No 68 of 2008).
(b)
Government Notice No 158, published in Government Gazette No 39663, dated 4
February 2016: Invitation for the public to comment on the determination of a threshold for
credit provider registration, in terms of section 42(1) of the National Credit Act, 2005 (Act
No 34 of 2005).
(c)
Proclamation No R 6, published in Government Gazette No 39667, dated 9 February 2016:
Commencement of the Special Economic Zones Act, 2014 (Act No 14 of 2014).
2.
The Minister of Women in The Presidency
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 364 of 376
South Africa’s 5th Periodic Report on the Implementation of the Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women 2009-2014.
TUESDAY, 16 FEBRUARY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Referral to Committees of papers tabled
(1)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations for consideration and report:
(a)
Protocol Amending the Marrakesh Agreement establishing the World Trade
Organisation (WTO), including Annex 1A on the Agreement on Trade Facilitation,
and Establishment of the National Committee on Trade Facilitation, tabled in terms
of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b)
Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol Amending the Marrakesh Agreement
establishing the World Trade Organisation (WTO), including Annex 1A on the
Agreement on Trade Facilitation, and Establishment of the National Committee on
Trade Facilitation.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(2)
PAGE: 365 of 376
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration and report:
(a) International Convention on Liability and Compensation for Damage in Connection
with Hazardous and Noxious Substances by Sea, 2010 (HNS Convention), tabled in
terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the International Convention on Liability and
Compensation for Damage in Connection with Hazardous and Noxious Substances
by Sea, 2010 (HNS Convention).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Women in The Presidency
(a)
Revised Annual Performance Plan of the Department of Women for 2015/16.
WEDNESDAY, 17 FEBRUARY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 366 of 376
Chairperson
1.
Membership of Committees
Please see pages 10-11 of the ATCs.
FRIDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1)
The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
(a)
Films and Publications Amendment Bill [B 37 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec
75).
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
23 FEBRUARY 2016
1.
PAGE: 367 of 376
Referral to Committees of papers tabled
(1)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration and report:
(a)
International Convention on Liability and Compensation for Damage in Connection
with Hazardous and Noxious Substances by Sea, 2010 (HNS Convention), tabled in
terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b)
Explanatory Memorandum to the International Convention on Liability and
Compensation for Damage in Connection with Hazardous and Noxious Substances
by Sea, 2010 (HNS Convention).
(2)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Government Employees Pension Fund
(GEPF) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Reconstruction and Development Programme
(RDP) Fund for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP353-2015].
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 368 of 376
Erratum of the Report and Financial Statements of the South African Revenue
Services (Sars) for 2014-15, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15 [RP208-2015].
(3)
The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development:
(a)
Bilateral Air Service Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the Government of the Republic of Sudan, tabled in terms of section
231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b)
Explanatory Memorandum to the Bilateral Air Service Agreement between the
Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of
Sudan.
(4)
The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs for consideration:
(a)
Report of the Commission on Gender Equality (CGE) on the Site Visit to the
Chatsworth Refugee Shelter – July 2015.
(5)
The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development for consideration:
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(a)
PAGE: 369 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Engineering Council of South Africa (ECSA)
for 2014-15 including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(6)
The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration:
(a)
(7)
Consolidated Financial Statements for the year ended 31 March 2015 [RP296-2015].
The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Social Services for
consideration:
(a)
(8)
Health Sector Report 2013-14 of the Auditor-General of South Africa [PR289-2015].
The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs for consideration:
(a)
Consolidated General Report of the Auditor-General on National and Provincial
Audit Outcomes for 2014-15 [RP372-2015].
(9)
The following paper is referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Financial
Management of Parliament for consideration:
(a)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – October 2015, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial
Legislatures Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 370 of 376
(10) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice for
consideration:
(a)
Report of the South African Police Service for the period April 2013 –
September 2013, tabled in terms of section 18(5)(d) of the Domestic Violence
Act, 1998 (Act No 116 of 1998).
(b)
Report of the South African Police Service for the period October 2013 – March
2014, tabled in terms of section 18(5)(d) of the Domestic Violence Act, 1998
(Act No 116 of 1998).
(c)
Report of the South African Police Service for the period April 2014 –
September 2014, tabled in terms of section 18(5)(d) of the Domestic Violence
Act, 1998 (Act No 116 of 1998).
(d)
Report of the South African Police Service for the period October 2014 – March
2015, tabled in terms of section 18(5)(d) of the Domestic Violence Act, 1998
(Act No 116 of 1998).
(11) The following paper is referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence for
consideration and report:
(a)
2015 Third Quarterly Report of the National Conventional Arms Control
Committee (NCACC), tabled in terms of section 23(1)(c) of the National
Conventional Arms Control Act, 2002 (Act No 41 of 2002).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 371 of 376
(12) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Social Services for
consideration:
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Amatola Water Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Lepelle Northern Water Board for
2014-15, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Bloem Water Board for 2014 -15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Magalies Water Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of the Mhlatuze Water Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(f)
PAGE: 372 of 376
Report and Financial Statements of the Overberg Water Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(g)
Report and Financial Statements of the Rand Water Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(h)
Report and Financial Statements of the Umgeni Water Board for 2014 -15,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2014-15.
(i)
Report and Financial Statements of the Sedibeng Water Board for 2014-15,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2014-15.
(13) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International
Relations:
(a)
Government Notice No 1008, published in Government Gazette No 39320,
dated 23 October 2015: Codes of Good Practice on Broad-Based Black
Economic Empowerment, in terms of section 9(1) of the Broad-Based Black
Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(b)
PAGE: 373 of 376
General Notice No 1055, published in Government Gazette No 39378, dated 6
November 2015: Amended B-BBEE Verification Manual, published pursuant to
the provisions of Section 9(1) and 14(2) of the Broad-Based Black Economic
Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).
(c)
General Notice No 1160, published in Government Gazette No 39429, dated 20
November 2015: Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act No 53 of
2003 as amended by Act 46 of 2013: Codes of Good Practice on Broad-Based
Black Economic Empowerment: Draft Agri BEE Sector Codes, in terms of the
Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).
(d)
Government Notice No 1031, published in Government Gazette No 39344,
dated 30 October 2015: Notice regarding the maximum number of Casino
licences that may be granted throughout the republic, in terms of the National
Gambling Act, 2004 (Act No 7 of 2004).
(e)
Government Notice No 1080, published in Government Gazette No 39379,
dated 6 November 2015: Final Regulations on Review of Limitations on Fees
and Interest Rates, made in terms of Section 171(1) of the National Credit Act,
2005 (Act No 34 of 2005).
(f)
Government Notice No 1104, published in Government Gazette No 39407,
dated 13 November 2015: Invitation for public comment on the Draft Credit
Life Insurance Regulations, in terms of section 171(1)(d)(ii) of the National
Credit Act, 2005 (Act No 34 of 2005).
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(g)
PAGE: 374 of 376
Government Notice No 1148, published in Government Gazette No 39430,
dated 20 November 2015: Codes of Good Practice on Broad-Based Black
Economic Empowerment: Amended Tourism Sector Code, in terms of section
9(1) of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53
of 2003).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Municipal Budgets for the 2015 Medium Term Revenue and Expenditure Framework
(MTREF), tabled in terms of section 24(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance
Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
Please see page 8 of the ATCs.
MONDAY, 22 FEBRUARY 2016
23 FEBRUARY 2016
PAGE: 375 of 376
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Withdrawal of referral
The referral of a letter dated 23 January 2016 from the Minister of Planning, Monitoring and
Evaluation to the Select Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs for the
recommendation of seven candidates to serve on the board of the National Youth Development
Agency is hereby withdrawn, pending the establishment of an ad hoc joint committee for this purpose
by the National Assembly and National Council of Provinces.
TUESDAY, 23 FEBRUARY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills
passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council
23 FEBRUARY 2016
(1)
PAGE: 376 of 376
Bill passed by National Assembly and transmitted for concurrence on 23 February 2016:
(a)
Expropriation Bill [B 4B - 2015] (National Assembly – sec 76).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Business
Development of the National Council of Provinces.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – November 2015, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures
Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(b)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – December 2015, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures
Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(c)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – January 2016, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures
Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents