Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 27 Jun 2017

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

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TUESDAY, 27 JUNE 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 09:38.

The House Chairperson: Committees, Oversight, Co-operative
Governance and Intergovernmental Relations took the Chair and
requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or
meditation.

NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

(Announcement)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The hon members are informed
that the Whippery has agreed that there would be no notices of
motion or motions without notice.

DEFERMENT OF THIRD ORDER ON ORDER PAPER UNTIL AFTER FIFTH ORDER


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(Draft Resolution)

[TAKE IN FROM THE MINUTES.]

COURTS OF LAW AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

JUDICIAL MATTERS AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr D L XIMBI: Good morning everybody. Chairperson, the NA referred
the Courts of Law Amendment Bill [B 8B – 2016] to the NCOP for
concurrence on 6 June 2017. The NCOP referred the Amendment Bill for
consideration and report to the Select Committee on Security and
Justice on 6 June 2017.

The purpose of the Courts of Law Amendment Bill is to amend various
sections of the Magistrates‘ Courts Act, Act 42 of 1944 in order to
address alleged abuses in the emoluments attachment order system. It
further seeks to amend the sections of the Magistrates‘ Courts Act
dealing with the rescission or abandonment of court judgements to


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accommodate the Department of Trade and Industry‘s removal of
adverse consumer credit information project.

The amendments have a bearing on civil debts and are aimed at
protecting debtors who often find themselves in financial
difficulties as a result of debts incurred by them, and who cannot
escape the debt trap due to the abuses that seem to be taking place
in this area of the law. The Amendment Bill also seeks to put in
place measures that assist persons in overcoming the effects of
court judgements relating to their continued indebtedness. The
Amendment Bill further amends the Superior Courts Act, Act 10 of
2013 in order to provide for the rescission of judgements with the
consent of the judgement creditor and for the rescission of
judgement where the judgement debt has been settled.

Chairperson, the committee advertised the Amendment Bill on 14 June
2017 on Parliament‘s electronic platform and radio broadcasts in all
the official languages, calling for public comment on the Amendment
Bill. The committee received two submissions on the Amendment Bill.

The Select Committee on Security and Justice invited the Department
of Justice and Constitutional Development to brief the committee on
the purpose and content of the Amendment Bill on 14 June 2017. The


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department briefed the committee on the two submissions received on
21 June 2017.

Therefore, the select Committee on Security and Justice, having
deliberated on and considered the subject of the Courts of Law
Amendment Bill [B 8B – 2016] referred to it, reports that it has
agreed to the Amendment Bill without proposing further amendments.
The select committee recommends that the Council approves the Bill.

Chairperson, allow me also to put this Report of the Select
Committee on Security and Justice on the Judicial Matters Amendment
Bill [B 14B – 2016]. The NA referred the Judicial matters Amendment
Bill [B 14B – 2016] to the NCOP for concurrence on 6 June 2017. The
NCOP referred the Amendment Bill for consideration and report to the
Select Committee on Security and Justice on 6 June 2017.

The primary aim of the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 14B –
2016] is to amend numerous Acts, most of which are administered by
the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, and are
intended to address practical and technical issues of a
noncontetious nature.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry, hon Ximbi. Hon
Labuschagne, why are you standing? Hon Ximbi, you may take your
seat.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order: I just want to make
sure whether we are now dealing with Orders One and Two, all in one
because it was not announced like that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it‘s both Orders One and
Two. Thanks. Continue, hon Ximbi.

Mr D L XIMBI: The committee advertised the Amendment Bill on 14 June
2017 on Parliament‘s electronic platform and radio broadcasts in all
official languages, calling for public comment on the Amendment
Bill. The committee received no submission on the Amendment Bill.

Chairperson, the Select Committee on Security and Justice invited
the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to brief
the committee on the purpose and content of the Amendment Bill on 14
and 21 June 2017. Thus, the Select Committee on Security and
Justice, having deliberated on and considered the subject of the
Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 14B – 2016] referred to it,
reports that it has agreed to the Amendment Bill without proposing


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further amendments. The Select Committee on Security and Justice
recommends that the Council approves the Bill. Thank you.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Courts of Law Amendment Bill be agreed to.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill be agreed to.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, we are mindful, in the context of
our own transformation challenges and the stresses in the global
environment of the hon Comrade Oliver Tambo unwavering vision and I
quote:


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We seek to create a united, democratic and nonracial society. We
have a vision of South Africa in which black and white shall live
and work together as equals in conditions of peace and prosperity.
We seek to remake our part of the world into a corner of the globe
of which all of humanity can be proud.

We find ourselves at a conjuncture, which requires the wisdom of our
elders, namely Comrades Oliver Tambo, Helen Joseph, Walter Sisulu
and Rolihlahla Mandela. [Interjections.]

IsiXhosa:
An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Ewe tata!

English:
Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson and hon members, we need
transformation to ensure growth and we need growth to transform. The
principles that should guide our agenda are the test of our
programmes must be that they do create jobs, eliminate poverty and
narrow the inequality gap.

The transformation and using the budget must be mass-based,
benefitting the most disadvantaged South Africans through the
creation of new assets, capabilities and opportunities to build


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livelihoods: To mobilise both private and public investment in the
social and economic infrastructure, new technologies and new
activities that help build a modern and diversified economy; to
provide new opportunities for access to markets; and to reshape our
cities and build linkages across the rural and urban landscapes
where fragmentation and separation characterised by past patterns.

We need to achieve a more balanced structure of ownership and
control in our economy. Our work must result in an economy that
belongs to all, black and white where the legacy of more race
domination is no longer visible.

Hon Chairperson and hon members, the total appropriation amounts to
R767 billion in the 2017-18 financial year, excluding direct charges
such as the provincial equitable share and debt-service costs.

The 2017 budget reflects the policy priorities contained in the
government‘s Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF. The Medium-Term
Strategic Frame Work sets out the National Development Plan, NDP,
priorities from 2014 to 2019. In the 2017 budget proposal, about two
thirds of the consolidated spending is allocated to functional
groups dedicated to realising the constitutionally mandated social
rights.


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The national department‘s objectives and spending items must be
aligned with the objectives of the NDP, as set out in the 2014 to
2019 MTSF. The MTSF is premised on the 14 priority outcomes that are
linked to the focus areas identified in the NDP Vision for 2030. The
attainment of these outcomes is necessary to unlock the constraints
to South Africa‘s growth and development.

Hon Chairperson, I am just highlighting a few allocations. The NDP
envisions a health system that works for everyone. Spending in this
function is allocated R187,4 billion in the 2017-18.

Also, the aims for an inclusive and responsive social protection
system; spending on this priority is set to rise from R180,1 billion
in 2017-18 to R209,1 billion by 2019-20. The number of social grant
beneficiaries is expected to reach 18,1 million people by the end of
2019-20. The child support grant will reach an estimated
12,8 million beneficiaries and the state-old age grant 3,6 million
beneficiaries.

Also, the NDP recognises that South Africa needs high-quality
education and training to build a skilled and capable workforce to
support inclusive growth. Spending in this function is R77,5 billion
for 2017-18.


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A total of 615 000 university students will receive National Student
Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, loans and bursaries over the next three
years.

With regard to the basic education: This group supports the NDP goal
of improving the quality of and access to basic education. Spending
in this category is allocated R232,5 billion.

With regard to spending in economic affairs function supports the
NDP objectives of growing the economy and employment. Over the
medium-term, spending is allocated R215 billion.

Hon Chairperson, Parliament, in particular this House, as well as
its committees, must intensify their oversight so as to ensure
accountability and the value for the money spent, good governance
and sound financial management.

Hon Chairperson and hon members of the Select Committee on
Appropriations, having considered the Appropriation Bill [B5 –
2017], as referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging
Mechanism as a section 77 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the
Bill without amendments.


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The DA tabled 405 amendments on the Bill which was rejected by the
majority in the committee.

Hon Chair, I move that the House vote in favour of the Bill. Thank
you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That concludes the debate. I
shall now put the votes in the order in which they appear, on the
Schedule to the Bill. Before I do so, I would like to remind members
that when voting occurs, the doors will be closed. I now put Vote No
1. Hon Labuschagne.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, we as the House did not agree that we
are not going to apply Rule 66. Rule 66 says that the bells have to
be rung before every vote.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Alright. Order, hon members.
Let me sustain the point of order. We can ring the bells, but before
we can start with the voting, let us have the bells ringing.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, whilst the order
that was raised by hon Labuschagne was in order, it is not my
responsibility to undermine the Rules of this House. It is entirely


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up to the Chief Whip, working with the leadership of different
parties, to make it a point that we have a way of dealing with this
Rule because if we will be doing it throughout, we might spend the
entire day today. So, it is entirely up to you; it is not my
responsibility to do that.

Hon Michalakis, why are you standing?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, to advise you because
clearly you don‘t apply the Rules correctly, if I may? Hon House
Chairperson, the Rule of ringing the bells is there for a reason. It
is a long day; members are going to move in and out. If they miss an
opportunity to vote, they need to be notified if they are outside
the House to come in. the Chief Whip cannot suspend a Rule of this
House on his own. If it was foreseen, then you should have taken it
up during the Whippery. You can‘t come in the middle of a plenary
and decide to suspend a Rule that is designed and built into our
rule book to make sure that the members are in the House with every
vote.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am not even intending on
suspending any rule. I was just commenting about the implications of
the Rule and there is nothing out of order about it. I am explaining


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that, if the Chief Whip is intending to deal with it we have to
respect leaders of political parties. You are correct, you have to
canvas at Whippery level and that is why I am saying it is not my
responsibility. I am not suspending it; I have sustained the point
of order and that is why bells are ringing. So, you are out of
order.

Hon Mokwele, you are recognised.

Ms T J MOKWELE: With due respect House Chair. I do not want you to
chase me, I am appealing. I do not hear any bells outside or inside.
Can we ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I heard them; they were
ringing, hon Mokwele. [Interjections.] I think you can close the
door so that we can start with the ... I now put Vote 1. Is there
any objection? No objection ... there is an objection. Who is
objecting? Okay.

The objection of the IFP will be noted. Any other objection?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: We first have to make a declaration and then we
vote.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Come again?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: House Chairperson, against what must we object or
not? We are busy with Vote 1 the Presidency ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I have now put Vote 1.
There was an objection from the IFP.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: House Chairperson, I want to refer to Rule 63:
When a question to be decided by the votes of individual members has
been fully put, the officer presiding, on the request, may allow
each political party in a speech not exceeding three minutes by a
Council member belonging to that party, to state the reasons why the
party is in favour of or against the question. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, I have put
the question. The honour is on you to play your part. It is not my
responsibility to do that. I have put the question to the House; the
question is in front of the House now and we are dealing with Vote
1. I cannot be doing the declaration or the objections on your
behalf. Hon Khawula?


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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chair, the IFP request to make a
declaration.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Exactly! You can go on and
make the declaration hon Khawula.

Declaration(s) of Vote:
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson ...

IsiZulu:
... akekho umholi othunyiwe ngabantu owashunqiselwa zonke
izinyamazane ophusile ongavotela ukuqhubeka kwemihlola eyenzeka
ehovisi lukaMongameli waleli zwe.

English:
For the first time in the history of our democratic Parliament since
1994, the IFP today finds itself obliged to raise a serious
objection to the budget of the Presidency. South Africa has
experienced worse tragedies and decline of governance under the
watch of President Zuma. We have experienced Marikana, we have been
told by courts that the President has corrupt relationships, that
this President has bridged his oath of office. Under President Zuma,
South Africa, for the first time, has been dragged to financial junk


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status. We have seen unprecedented levels of job losses and increase
of unemployment.

President Zuma is the only President I have ever known who has the
guts to remove a performing Minister and replace him with a non
entity. The list is endless.

I repeat the words of Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi that, under
President Zuma ―dignity has shuffled off the stage of politics,
following the quiet exit of integrity.‖ I thank you House Chair.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: House Chair, the President‘s act of complete
state capture shows that he has no interest in South Africa‘s future
or the nine million unemployed in this country.

The head of this government should set aside his vanities and serve
the people by stepping down when the demands of office exceed his
moral and intellectual capacity, yet he still reigns.

The President and his Cabinet - a President of cronies and crooks have let all South Africans down and have shown they do not care
about state resources – money that should uplift the quality of


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lives of the poor by providing essential services like water,
electricity, roads and schools.

The President has made it clear that he, his family and his son
Duduzane can do whatever they like with this country and its
resources. Under this Presidency, unemployment has increased. We are
in recession and recently declared junk status, and what does the
President say? That he has done a good job and he is innocent.

Under this ANC, almost a third of our population is unemployed and
there are more people on social grants than there are people
working.

The DA cannot support the Presidency budget under this ANC. All you
have done after 23 years is enrich yourselves, your friends and your
families, standing back in your fancy suits and fancy cars while
there are people with no jobs and nothing to eat. I thank you.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, firstly, currently, there is no
oversight on the budget of the Presidency.

Secondly, we believe that South Africans cannot continue under the
leadership of President Zuma, as he is unable to lead the country.


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He has given the powers to lead this country to foreigners, like the
Guptas. We cannot support a President who is more concerned about
the welfare of his family than that of the country. The current
President has allowed the country‘s economy to deteriorate to junk
status. Thank you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, as you know, the EFF does not support the
person in the position of President, Mr Zuma. We object, based on
the fact that the man is a criminal. The man has dragged the
country‘s economy down to junk status. You can name all these sorts
of things. So, we will never, ever trust the man with the
responsibility of ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of
order: I request that you rule out of order the serious remark that
has been made by the hon member regarding the sitting President. The
President has never been found guilty anywhere.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Not yet! Not yet. He has never ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, refrain from
anything that will deal with the integrity of a person in that
office.


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Ms T J MOKWELE: With those words, the EFF rejects the budget. We
don‘t trust Mr Zuma with anything.

Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chairperson, allow me to rise to declare the ANC‘s
support for Vote No 1 - the Presidency. The Presidency occupies a
strategic centre for the policy initiative, co-ordination and
implementation critical for service delivery, development and the
radical, socioeconomic transformation agenda.

The significance of this leadership role has increased considerably
over the recent past, with the increasing role of South Africa in
the international and continental economic, social, cultural and
economic space. This requires increased human capital and financial
and strategic capacity within the Presidency to provide governmentwide co-ordination, implementation, monitoring and evaluation. The
successful implementation of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework,
which gives effect to the ruling party‘s election manifesto and the
National Development Plan supported by all political parties, is
dependent on the Budget Vote.

We have to address inequality, poverty and unemployment. The
Presidency takes the responsibility to co-ordinate with provincial
governments in terms of ensuring that their growth and development


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strategies that are aligned to attend to the current realities of
inequality in our country. To reject the Presidency Budget Vote is
to reject the implementation of the National Development Plan and
the plan to address the socioeconomic challenges that face our
country. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me appeal
for you to be alert. It is not going to be my responsibility to
force you to call for divisions, declarations of vote or even
objections. So, be alert and be able to play your part. I am just
presiding.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, my learned, hon Cathy will quote the Rule
there but it is your responsibility to make sure that you divide the
House, you call for a division of the House, you call for
declarations of vote and voting. There is a Rule and she will tell
you what it is. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, are you calling
for a division? Hon Labuschagne, are you calling for a division?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I beg your pardon, Chair?


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Are you calling for a
division?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chair. I am calling for a division in terms
of Rule 64(2).

Division demanded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Alright. Hon members, it has
been brought to my attention that the system is not functioning
properly. It might therefore take us a lot of time. So, those who
are against should sit on that side. Those who are in favour should
sit on this side. [Interjections.] For the division! They have
called for a division. Let‘s do it quickly. Those who are abstaining
will be on this side, at the back.

Hon Labuschagne, could I have someone on this side to assist with
the counting? Hon Motara, can you be the one assisting with the
counting on this side?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, according to our
Rules, once a division has been called, we can‘t debate. Let‘s be
seated as I have requested.


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The Council divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Inkatha Freedom Party
dissenting).

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I don‘t want to
... I don‘t know ... because there is this thing of the bells. Let‘s
have the bells ringing.

Hon members, let me indicate that the hon Michalakis was quite
correct. The purpose of the bells is to call those members who are
outside to come into the Chamber. However, because all members are
now inside the Chamber, is it necessary that we ring the bells each
time? [Interjections.] Hon Labuschagne?

Mr W FABER: You can call me! [Inaudible.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: [Inaudible.]


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Alright. Let‘s have the bells
ringing.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, you are quite right. We have to stick to
the Rule, but I am sure we can come to an agreement in respect of
for how long we ring the bell. Chair, three minutes it‘s too long.
Can you adjust on the three minutes to something else better than
three?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me say, hon Chief Whip,
whilst we are ringing now for three minutes, can you engage
leadership of political parties so that you can make my life to be
much easier. Engage them.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Now?

(SHORT SUSPENSION OF VOTING - WHILE CHIEF WHIPS HAVE A CAUCUS)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You can engage them as we are
ringing the bells, there is nothing happening.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I support the
IFP. Okay, we will talk to them now, Chair.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, I thought
you wanted to say something. Let me start with hon Labuschagne I
will come to you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I am standing on a point of order. There is
no Rule that says that the Chief Whip is allowed to lobby the
parties within the House on the ringing of the bells.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chief Whip is busy lobbying us to do illegal things,
to leave the House while we are still working. Please, you must call
Chief Whip to order, Chair. We are working here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We are dealing with Vote 2,
any objections?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: We object and divide.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is an objection and
calling for a division. The Democratic Alliance objection is noted.

Ms T J MOKWELE: The EFF objects.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): And the EFF objection is
noted. No declarations?

Declaration(s):
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, firstly, we must reiterate what we said
during the debate regarding the need to insource cleaning services;
secondly, we support the budget because we hope that it will be a
good tool to turn this institution into a professionally run
organisation; thirdly, we call on presiding officers to refrain from
taking decisions that have no legal standing, these practices has
consumed large chunk of the budget which may have been spent on
improving the quality of the institution; and lastly, the recent
Constitutional Court judgement is an indictment for Parliament. It
is worse when Parliament is ordered to pay litigation costs because
the need for legal action could have been avoided. Let us at all
time do the right thing. I thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chair, I wish to first commend all the hard working
staff in Parliament and our caucus offices. Having done so, I
reiterate the concern of the IFP which is well known by the
Chairperson of Council that some of our staff are not up to the
task. It is at times embarrassing to read some of the documents
which are referred to as parliamentary material. This is all a


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result of cadre deployment and appointing people to positions for
which they do not have capacity. This is destroying that particular
person.

In commending some best performing sections, the IFP‘s credit goes
to our travel desk. They are an example of the best. The Rules of
Parliament and application of the law has to be followed to the
latter by our presiding officers. It is a pity that the Speaker of
Parliament, who denied having powers to grant voting by secret
ballot, had to be told by the Constitutional Court that she does
have the power. The IFP hopes that the Speaker will now wake up and
find reason to grant voting by secret ballot in the forthcoming
motion of no confidence to the President. I thank you, Chair.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

AYES - 39: [Take in from minutes]

NOES - 19: [Take in from the minutes]


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Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, if you have witnessed the
counting done by my hon friend from the ANC from that side, you
can‘t count by doing this and say 39. It makes a mockery of the
whole process. I dispute the fact that there are 39 members.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order! Put your hands down.
Let me deal with it. Hon Michalakis, the reason why we said you must
sit like this is because we wanted to make it simple for the
counting. Not unless you are saying the counting is wrong, then that
will be something else. Hon members, this thing is correct, hon Koni
was not in the House. Now, Koni is in the House.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, this is exactly the point of the bells
ringing and the counting. The first Vote on the support side were 20
people, out of those 20 people, two moved over to support but in the
mean time another member entered the Chamber. So, the counting is
not done correctly because two new people moved over, they
automatically just took those two and another one just entered the
Chamber. So, we are 19 on this side now and two moved over, it can‘t
be like that.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, we can‘t discuss
this counting. We have got people that have been given the
responsibility working with the front table. I now put Vote 3. We
now come to Vote 3. Let‘s have the bells ringing.

Vote No 3 – Communications – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Now, to make my life more
easier hon Motara, you will be doing the counting that side and hon
Labuschagne will be doing the counting this side. [Applause.] No, we
have got the front table and we have hon Labuschagne and hon Motara,
but hon Motara this time will be doing that side and hon Labuschagne
the other side.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chair, I just want to find the rationale behind the
appointment of hon Labuschagne and hon Motara. I have a problem with
that because we do not have only two parties in this House.
[Interjections.] So, if ... Chair, can I be protected. Hon members,
... hon Khawula is protected. You are protected. If that is meant to
satisfy political parties, you can‘t have other political parties
representing other political parties. [Interjections.] So,
Chairperson that is out of order.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, you are making a
valid point, but I was not appointing political parties. I was
appointing hon members to assist me with counting. I wouldn‘t even
mind, hon Khawula ... I am now appointing you to even assist me with
abstention. [Laughter.] All those that are abstaining will be
counted by hon Khawula. Are there any objections? DA objects and
call for a division. Hon Khawula, can you assist with abstention?

VOTING
Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 39: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
Dube-Ncube, N; Gaehler, L B; Khawula M; Khumalo S; Lasindwa, L;
Mahlakeng, M; Makue, E R; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E;
Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D; Mohai, S J;
Moshodi, M L; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J M; Ncitha, Z
V; Ndamase, M; Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J
P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B T; Siwela,
V S; Skhosana ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.


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NOES - 19: Chabangu, M M; Chetty, M; Engelbrecht, B; Faber, W F;
Gersbach G; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J;
Koni, N P; Magwebu, L V;Mathevula,B T; Michalakis, G; Mokwele,T J;
Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Ngwenya, D B; Pittaway, M; Smit, C F B;
Terblanche,O S.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, I want to plead with the leadership of
the political parties about the bells ringing for three minutes. We
have got 40 votes here. Those bells ringing for three minutes its
three hours. Can we at least be flexible and drop the three minutes
or else will sit the whole day here. We will sit the whole day here,
we are pleading with the leadership of political parties. Thank you.

Ms N P KONI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Gaehler is extremely wrong.
We are here to work, if he wants to sleep, he is allowed to leave
the House and go and sleep even if we leave here at 12 o‘clock
midnight so be it. We are here to work. We don‘t care if its 100
votes. We are going to sit here and work. Even if it‘s 10 minutes


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for the division, we don‘t care. [Applause.] We are here to work.
[Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let us not get
into the discussion. I have tried to assist the House that
leadership of political parties can engage and assist me to make my
life to be easier. But if you do not agree, let us not engage about
it. Let us leave it.

Declaration(s) of Vote:
Mr M CHETTY (DA): Declaration Budget Vote for Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, just last week, the
Auditor-General Kimi Makwetu released the report on the 263
municipalities for the 2015-16 financial year. This report
vindicates DA and further endorses that the DA is the only political
party in South Africa out of this captured state that we find
ourselves in the courtesy of the ANC and the Guptas. The best run
councils are in the DA-led Western Cape and also the DA-led City of
Cape Town was the only Metro to receive a clean bill of health by
the Auditor-General. The Auditor-General‘s report further states
that only the DA Western Province premier‘s office provided the
level of assurance which included management, leadership and
oversight. The other eight provinces were captured. Residents are


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taking to the street, burning tyres, displaying the dissatisfaction
with the state of corruption that exists in their councils and the
lack of basic service delivery. We have Kannaland in the Western
Cape, Thaba Chweu in Mpumalanga, Westonaria in Gauteng, Mogalakwena
in Limpopo, Msunduzi in KwaZulu-Natal and Gariep in the Eastern
Cape. These ANC-led municipalities are in dire need of
interventions, not political interventions but administrative
interventions. These councils are captured.

The Auditor-General‘s report further exposes that under the current
Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs council
irregular expenses increased by 50% due to weak financial
consoles10:40:59. Out of 263 municipalities 230 engage consultants.
These municipalities spend up R3,5 billion on these consultants. Of
this R838 million was spent on financial services, R71 million of
which was paid for by the provincial Treasury and Cogta departments.
Municipalities that have been placed under section 131 (b) or 9(c)
have proven to fail in ensuring that the oversight implementation of
these dysfunctional municipalities regresses, instead of improving.
The cost incurred during administration and improper unforeseeable
exit plans has led to fruitless and wasteful expenditure.


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The Municipality Demarcation Board has also failed to ensure that
there is transparency. It bowed to the pressure from the ANC and
allowed for the gerrymandering of wards and outer boundaries to
benefit the ANC 2016 local government election. The Municipality
Demarcation Boards are now acceding to the ANC‘s request to
incorporate Matatiela to KwaZulu-Natal as part of the deal to keep
the ANC in power in Ekurhuleni. Further the DA objected to the
Minister‘s request to transfer the responsibility of disaster
management to councils citing it as a national competency. The
recent water shortages and subsequent storm damage in Cape Town and
fire disaster in Knysna has vindicated our peace. The DA therefore
cannot support a captured budget for a captured department led by a
captured Minister. Thank you. [Applause.]

IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA (IFP): Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngiqala ngokuthulela
isigqoko iMeya yaseNkandla umhlonishwa uNtuli ngokuqinisekisa ukuthi
kuba nekolishi lamakhono eNkandla ukuze kuqeqeshelwe intsha amathuba
emisebenzi.

English:
Well done Mphemba ...


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IsiZulu:
... ndodana yendoda ongayithemba. Ngibonga iMeya entsha sha
yakwaNongoma eHlalankosi, induna umhlonishwa Albert Mangaqa Mncwango
ngokuba athi efika kulo mkhandlu akhiphe umbiko wocwaningo lwenkece,
olwenziwe ngabacwaningi bezimali baka-Pricewaterhouse Coopers. Lo
mbiko uvumbulula inkohlakalo yezimali eyenzeke kusuka ngonyaka wezi2011 ukuya ngowezi-2016 kulo mkhandlu uphethwe yiNFP isizwa yiqembu
likaKhongolose. Umbiko uthi phakathi kokunye ngowezi-2013 kwebiwe
izinkulungwane ezingama-90 [90 000] kwathengwa izikibha zeqembu
leNFP egama lokuthi kunemidlalo yesintu [indeginous games]
kwamasipala. Ngonyaka wezi-2011 kunethenda yezigidi eziyi-14
zamarandi [R14 million] yokwakha i-museum and cultural hub
eyakhishwa osokukhokhiwe inkece elinganiselwa ezigidini ezi-5
zamarandi [R5 million] kodwa lesi sakhiwa asikaze sibe khona.

Enye yezinkampani eyabe iqashelwe ukwenza le sakhiwo yabe ithumele
izincwadi (documents) eziwumgunyathi ngayo. Ezinye zeziphathimandla
kwamasipala kwaNongoma zaqashwa nakuba zingakufanele ukuba kulezo
zikhundla ngokwezinga lemfundo. Kunenkece edliwe ngonyaka wezi-2013
elinganiselwa kwizinkulungwane ezingama-213 zamarandi [R213 000]
eMnyangweni wamalayisensi wokushayela nokubhaliswa kwezimoto.
Kukhokhelwe ukwkhiwa kwephawundi lokugcina izinkomo izinkulungwane
ezingama-450 [R450 000] kodwa leli phawundi alikaze libe khona.


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Abasebenzi bomkhandlu ababalelwa eshumi nesishiyagalombili
babhukhelwe bakhokhelwa inkece yokuba ku-workshop eLodge eKokstad
kodwa le-Lodge ibingakaze ibe khona emlandweni ngenkathi kukhokhwa.
Lo mkhandlu ubusetshenziselwa ukuba yinkomo egwantsile kuyo yonke le
minyaka ukondla iqembu leNFP kube kusetshenziswa inkece yentuthuko
yabantu bakwaNongoma. Siyathokoza bab‘uMncwango.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, regarding the Auditor-General‘s latest
report on the local government audit, the UDM notes there were only
marginal improvements in local government audits.

We are however concerned that 14 municipalities lost their cleanaudit status, whilst nine cleaned up their act. It simply means that
good governance at local government level and effective municipal
management are moving in the wrong direction. The UDM is on record
regarding government‘s overreliance on consultants, and it is
discouraged to hear that consultants‘ fees for the financial
reporting service increased to R838 million.

The greatest cause for concern is the following: Municipalities
spend more than they have. Their current liabilities exceed current
assets at year end. Debtors are not paying or delaying payment, with
late payments to creditors. There has been no improvement on the


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Auditor-General‘s perennial concerns. Contracts are awarded to
employees, councillors, their families, and other state officials.
Although fruitless and wasteful expenditure is down by 21%,
irregular expenditure increased by more than 50%. The UDM also notes
an interesting trend regarding the fruitless and wasteful
expenditure by government, in particular in the local government
sphere. This trend is mostly experienced during years of general
elections – national and provincial – as well as during years that
the ANC and its alliance partners have conferences.

This trend is manifested in this year‘s report, with the year
preceding being one of a municipal election. We will not be
surprised to notice a spark in expenses when it is time next year,
and another report is issued after the conference of the ANC and its
alliance. The UDM will consider investigating this trend to
establish whether the public purse is not used to fund internal
political party programmes. If this is the case, it will be proof of
yet another case of thievery. Thank you.

Mr M D MONAKEDI: Chairperson, Budget Vote No 4: Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs is aimed at improving governance
across the three spheres of government, including, and in
partnership with, institutions of traditional leadership. This is by


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no means an easy task. This is attested to by recurrent community
demonstrations, also referred to as service delivery protests, that
we see from time to time. The majority of these protests are
directed at local government, which by its nature is at the coalface
of service delivery.

Municipalities generally continue to receive negative audit results
from the Auditor-General, with the latest 2015-16 local government
audit outcomes showing that, overall, local government has failed to
maintain the promising five-year momentum gained in the previous
years. Amongst others, this is a challenge that the department‘s
Back to Basics programme is addressing. That is why there has been a
marked improvement on audit outcomes for provinces such as the
Eastern Cape, Limpopo and Mpumalanga.

This budget is aimed at funding the continuation of the Back to
Basics programme. The second phase of the programme will focus on
ensuring a stable, functional and developmental local government
system. This will be done by working with all stakeholders,
including communities, Salga and our esteemed traditional leaders.
We also welcome the transfer of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant
programme from the department to the Municipal Infrastructure
Support Agency. No doubt, this will accelerate spending levels of


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our municipalities and, thus, improve their performance in providing
services to our people.

The ANC will continue to direct, guide and support the department
towards improving co-operative governance across the three spheres
of government, in partnership with institutions of traditional
leadership, and ensuring efficiency and effectiveness in the
development of our communities. Given the comprehensiveness of the
plan and the budget the department presented, we are convinced that
we are, indeed, on course towards a better life for all our people.
The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put.


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Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and
the African National Congress.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Ms T J MOKWELE: I raised objection with declaration.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you never said
declarations.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I did say that – I did say it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I missed that part.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Ja, you missed it – it‘s not my fault.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No I missed it. [Laughter.]
[Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Do you miss everything Chair? I am told you miss
everything. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele I missed the part
when you said you wanted to do declarations.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Whose fault is that then?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, can you do the
declarations – it won‘t do any harm.

Declaration of vote:
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote 5 of the
Department of Home Affairs. The most fundamental reason behind our
rejection is that we do not trust this department. It has been fully
captured by the growing Zuma-Gupta gang of corruption whose sole
intend is to lay our country to waste just to benefit a few
individuals and families. You are busy justifying Malusi Gigaba‘s
inexplicable decision to give the cancerous Gupta family South
African citizenship against laws and regulations governing such.


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This department together with State Security under David Mahlobo
following the instruction of their handlers the Gupta family, has
been leading attempts to spy on our Commander in Chief, Julius
Malema. If you can abuse authority for figures such as our Commander
in Chief, how much more damage are you doing to ordinary citizens of
this country. We should not be giving you any money - rather we
should all be giving you orange overalls. You deserve jail time. You
are a disgrace to the values that our forefathers held.

That is not the end - the ANC passed what could be easily the worst
piece of legislation since 1994 in Parliament; the Border Management
Bill. This will create a parallel revenue collection body to replace
the good work done over the years by Sars. This was purely done to
remove the responsibility of collecting this revenue from Sars which
then reported to Pravin Gordan who refused to be captured by the
Guptas. And it was brought to Home Affairs to be controlled by
Malusi – a Gupta puppet. No one has cared to explain why it was
necessary to remove those functions from Sars. There is no
justifiable reason for doing so - other than to continue to project
the looting of our resources to benefit the Guptas and Zuma family.
We reject this Budget Vote. We reject the Gupta capture of our state
and we reject Zuma and the stooges he leads.


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Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: The reason is; I just
want to establish if it‘s parliamentary to call a Minister of state
a puppet? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let‘s deal with
vote 6.

Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Ms L C DLAMINI: My hand was up for a Home Affairs declaration.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. We are dealing with Vote
6 now. She was the only one that said she was left out.
[Interjections.]

Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put.

Mr W F FABER: We are still waiting. How long must we wait?


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Once the bell stop ringing,
any person outside remains outside.

Mr W F FABER: They have been ringing for three minutes.

Declarations of vote:
Mr L B GAEHLER: The need for developmental Treasury cannot be over
emphasised. The need for a focused and corrupt free Treasury is
surely needed by our country. We need a zero-tolerance for under
expenditure in government.

The government must not celebrate services when poverty is our daily
reality. We need a Treasury that will be sensitive to the need of
agriculture. We repeat our firm view that bank charges and interest
rates make banking facilities and systems a private monopoly of few.
It also discourages those with little to save and saving. It
encourages the emergence of black market, which robs our communities
of growth, which we so dearly need. Thank you.

Mr C J DE BEER: South Africa needs strong Treasury. Treasury is
addressing the unsustainable inequalities in South Africa through
ensuring and working for economic growth and creating jobs by
encouraging the private sector to contribute to growing the economy


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and enhancing the business sector to work closely with the
government.

The National Treasury work is underpinned by 2030 Vision as
articulated in the NDP and aligns to the NDP and the MTSF. Decent
employment through inclusive economic growth is what we want and an
efficient, competitive and responsive infrastructure network;
sustainable human settlements and improved quality of household
lives; a responsive, accountable and effective local government
system create a better South Africa and contributes to a better,
safer South Africa and the world.

We do not have to talk about the adequacy of the Budget - the
influences and the programmes related to the budget and how the
budget is being spent. Yes, we have a downgrade, we are worrying, we
are concerned about technical recession, and we all have to work
together in the national interest to overcome this situation – I am
referring to government, civil society, labour and business all
working together despite our differences. We must be patriotic
towards South Africa and its entire people. The ANC supports this
Vote.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters)


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Vote No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put.

Declarations of vote:
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: This is yet another department to monitor and
evaluate the government‘s programmes to increase its effectiveness
of planning across government spheres. Each year, we are informed
that more emphasis will be placed on performance monitoring of local
government, like most of the ANC departments, it has failed.

Our country has been swallowed by a gigantic sinkhole of state
capture and corruption. The rot has reached all levels of the
government and includes Ministers and top office bearers in state
enterprises and implicates our President and his family, his allies
– the Guptas. With scandals, like the State Capture Report, the
Gupta emails saga, the Sassa scandal, Eskom – five chief executive
officers since 2013 and they have just overpaid over R1 billion for
replacement of boiler at Duvha Power station, chaos with the Mining
Charter, Prasa and Nkandla, which spent R246 million.

The Auditor-General stated that the government‘s failure to properly
plan and monitor its projects resulted in avoidable service delivery
failures. Why this? Because the problems are the same – unskilled
municipal officials and mayors, failure to ensure that the basics,


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including budgeting, cost management and adhering to the prescribed
tender processes are done correctly as well as lack of
accountability.

Only the DA-run Western Cape received a clean audit. The DA cannot
support a budget to a department that has not shown any progress or
commitment to improve the effectiveness of this government. Thank
you.

Dr H E MATEME: The ANC supports this Vote. As the ANC, we have
always said that at the very core of the success of our national
interventions and our national agenda to change the lives of our
people and build a prosperous South Africa is the need to ensure
proper co-ordination and planning amongst the spheres of government.

It is for this reason that we established the Department of
Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation to give effect to the
institutional long-term planning within the state and in order to
speed-up effective implementation of ANC projects and programmes and
ultimately speed-up service delivery to our people.

Since its establishment, this department has made enormous strides
in enhancing our planning and the co-ordination of our national


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intervention to deliver quality services to our people. The
department has introduced the outcome approach to detailed planning,
implementation and monitoring and evaluation; promote monitoring and
evaluation in the government; monitor the performance of individual,
national and provincial departments and municipalities and
monitoring frontline service delivery.

Today, we are able to measure the progress that we are making in
addressing the legacy of apartheid and deliver quality services to
our people. We are also able to ensure proper planning for a better
and prosperous South Africa. This department continues to assist our
government in addressing the silo approach to planning, budgeting,
monitoring, reporting - a lack of accountability for poor
performance with monitoring and reporting on performance
information, unrealistic target setting and poor quality of
performance information in the various spheres of government.

We can say with the outmost pride and humility that we are on the
correct path to transforming our society. We have journeyed far
since the long lines of the first democratic elections on 27 April
1994, when we elected the first democratic government for us and all
our people. We have also created a country where everybody feels


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free yet bound by the others. We share the destiny to build a
prosperous nation.

As we said in our Vision 2030 and I quote:

Our story is open ended with temporary destinations only for new
past to open up once more. It is a story of unfolding learning.
Even when we flounder, we remain hopeful. In this story we always
arrive and depart. We have come some way. We know what we do and
how we do it is as important as what we want to achieve. We are
because of who we have been. We will continue to make it make us
because we are happy with being who we are.

Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises – put

Declarations of vote:
Mr M M CHABANGU: House Chairperson, we stand here as the EFF and we
want to warn the country before it is too late and before the lights
are out or Eskom has collapsed. We also want to warn the country


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before SA Airways flights are grounded and cannot fly anymore. We
want to warn South Africans before our ports of entry for goods are
closed and Transnet is nothing but a shadow of its former self. The
EFF stands here to warn South Africans before Denel is no longer a
state-owned entity but a Gupta-owned entity. They have already
started taking it piece by piece but the corrupt joint venture
between Denel and the 21-year-old Atul Gupta‘s nephew is just the
beginning.

As the EFF we have questioned the existence of this department and
correctly illustrated why it should not exist, but simply by looking
at the operational dysfunction of the department makes one honestly
say that the department‘s only purpose is a mechanism for the
Guptas, Zumas and other connected members of the ANC to loot the
state using state-owned enterprises.

The state-owned entities, SOEs, which are meant to provide vital
service to the public like train travel and electricity are being
drained of money and made dysfunctional as a result. The level at
which this department has been used to loot public money, especially
at Eskom, Transnet and the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa,
Prasa, are known by everyone, yet nothing is done. This alone is
enough reason not to support this department and its budget. At a


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more strategic level, we call for dissolution of the Department of
Public Enterprises and the entities that fall under the department
must be moved to the line function department. SA Airways and
Transnet should go to the Department of Transport, Eskom should go
to the Department of Energy and all other entities should go to
their respective line function departments. A failure to do this is
the reason why we reject this vote. Thank you very much, House
Chairperson.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon House Chair, the Department of Public
Enterprises failed its mandate of oversight to state-owned
enterprises. One would expect this department to set an example of
good leadership for transparency and accountability for SOEs to
follow. However, it seems this department choose to follow the trend
set by the SOEs, hence the constant changing of key performance
areas and priorities. South Africans would like to find the golden
threat of transparency and accountability, good management and
leadership in SOEs as they are being portrayed as the ANC government
tools to drive investment, skills development and job creation.

However, news headlines frequently reveal quite the opposite. There
are captures cadres being instrumental in bragging11:22:34 deals for
Transnet to obtain a loan from a Chinese bank. The chairperson is


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involved in nepotism and corruption and ongoing bailouts from
government or South Africans taxpayers‘ money - all of which cannot
ensure that investors will invest money in our country. With stateowned enterprises not fulfilling their mandate, how can South
Africans be expected to trust this ANC government to spend the
budget effectively and efficiently? The DA is calling for an ad hoc
committee to be established to get to the truth of the corruption in
state-owned companies. This cannot be done by having discussions
with a few Ministers through their portfolio committees as the
corruption, nepotism and cronyism while being reported by the media
is on a level that our nation cannot tolerate any longer. The DA
does not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr J P PARKIES: House Chairperson, on the basis of our revolutionary
collective efforts and impetus, its rootedness in the social needs
of the great masses of our people and their dignity which has
dialectical link with the perpetual continuation of the past in the
present, the vestiges of the colonialism of special type in the
current phase, the Department of Public Enterprises is an asset that
should serve the interest of the great masses of this country. Any
defiant conduct by parasitic forces and ferocious accumulation
should be defeated and pulverised through effective accountability
and evasive political oversight by Parliament.


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Currently we are faced with the triple challenges of tormenting
poverty, unemployment and palpable social inequality in our society.
Public Enterprises represent an opportunity to have rapid skills
development and absorption of young people for job creation and
rapid economic transformation and it temper with the intersection
that reproduces the conditions for grand larceny and exploitation of
working people whom we have an opportunity to enrich their
livelihood in our society. Thank you.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, House Chair. I just wanted to ask for
clarity sake because we are dealing with Budget Votes here. It seems
as if the ANC objects ... is it the ... ANC that objects ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): You are out of order, Julius.
[Laughter.] Hon Khawula?

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chair, this is one department which is very
deep in trouble. The IFP reiterates its call for this department to
be shut down and all the SOEs to be redirected to the line function
departments. We commend Minister Brown for stopping the senseless
Eskom board golden handshake of R30 million to Brian Molefe or hon
Brian Molefe - I don‘t know what he is called. However, the troubles
are too deep, the SOEs have for long been treating our National


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Treasury as their ATM. This is a department where all the state
capturers have made their inroads to rip the country together with
its entities. The IFP rejects Vote No 9.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon House Chairperson, as alluded in the Budget
Vote, the UDM objects to this department. This is one of the
departments that have been formed to deploy cadres, all the Zuma
loyalists. This department has failed from the onset, the SOEs are
useless and they are nonfunctional. This department is used to
siphon money out of the government for the sake of the ―Zuptas‖. We
are sitting with the high unemployment rate of youth here and none
of them are assisted by this department. We object to this
department. I thank you.

Voting.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

Take in from minutes.

Agreed to.


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VOTE NO 9 – PUBLIC ENTERPRISES – PUT

Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put.

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the African National
Congress and the Democratic Alliance.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can we have the doors locked?
Any objection, we are dealing with Vote 10? Note the objections of
the DA and the EFF. Okay; we are done with Vote 10. Hon Engelbrecht,
as we move forward, that is why I said you must be active, there is
nothing wrong to say that you object and you are also going to
declare. Yes, go on and do the declaration.

Declarations of vote:
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Yes, I am going to declare. Mr Chair, the
mandate of this department is to improve the general welfare of
society by delivering public goods and services to our people. To do
this, the public sector needs to be effective and efficient in
fulfilling its responsibilities. This means maximum use of the
limited financial resources. However, South Africa‘s Cabinet is one
of the world‘s largest in comparison to its population with
accompanying bloated government positions. In 1994, the Public Wage


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Bill was only 5% of total government expenditure and it has now
grown to 13% of total government expenditure.

The public sector has become a bank account for many with
unaccountable civil servants noncompliance with reforms and the
overall decline in governance. Corruption in Public Service has
recent into endemic proportions with politicians and public
officials diverting public funds away from service delivery into
their back pockets. This is no wonder as this department is headed
by Minister Faith Muthambi, who is former Minister of
Communications, almost single-handedly destroyed the SA Broadcasting
Corporation, SABC. Her track record does not bode well for a
department with the mandate to cultivating integrity and
strengthening accountability.

She has 22 people in her department instead of the allocated 10
posts. She has not attended a single portfolio meeting since taking
office and did not border to attend the two-day budget workshop.
However, this Imbizo Minister very quickly planned a R1,3 million
Imbizo, an ANC word for a big party. South Africans deserve more. We
deserve a Public Service that is ethical, value-driven and fight
corruption. Therefore, we will certainly not be supporting this
Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]


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Mr J M MTHETHWA: Hon Chairperson, the goal of the ANC since its
formation has been to give all the people of our country the chance
to choose their own government. The apartheid government was always
been used to harass, divide and humiliate the great majority of
South Africans. While securing privilege and relatively high
standard of service for the minority, this resulted in the ANC‘s
call for a constitution that guarantees a higher quality of
government service for all as articulated in 1992, Ready to Govern,
ANC policy guiding document.

Ready to Govern calls for a Public Service that must be based on the
principle of representative, competence, impartiality and
accountability ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry, hon Mthethwa. Hon
members, heckling is allowed but you can‘t be drowning the speaker.
You are protected, hon Mthethwa. Can you continue?

Mr J M MTHETHWA: The ANC has also envisaged a Public Service that is
nonracial and nonsexist in character comprising of personnel that
are well trained disciplined human and loyal to the Constitution. It
envisaged a Public Service that is drawn from and serves the
interest of the people as a whole. This was reaffirmed by the


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Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, of the ANC which
calls for a public service that reflects the gender and racial
composition of South African society and that all.

Prior to 1994, the Public Service in South Africa was thus
characterised by a poor quality of service, low skills based
inefficiencies, a lack of commitment and no respect for citizens.
The apartheid government consisted of homelands administrations as
well as separate national and provincial administration for
designated racial groupings. The homelands administrations were
poorly organised and resourced largely without local government
functionality and the service they provided were determined by the
apartheid state.

In addition, the Public Service lacks transparency and
accountability providing space for abuse of power and corruption.
The ANC has fought to ensure that those apartheid era institutions
had to be amalgamated into single democratic nonracial systems.
South Africa‘s first democratic government inherited a fragmented
accountable and racial divided governance system in 1994 post
apartheid. Since 1995 the Public Service has engaged ... [Time
expired.]


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mthethwa, I‘m afraid your
time is up. It is three minutes for declaration.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: We support the budget. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any division? No.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 11 – Public Works – put.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, before we start, if you can allow me I
have an objection. I think there is a mistake with the watches of
the people ringing the bells. I have been timing every time. Now is
two minutes and eight seconds after you said we need to start. There
is a challenge. Somewhere something is wrong.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, may you sit
down. First, we are not going to discuss the issue of time as I am
not controlling it here. Time is being controlled outside. I hear
the bells like as you do. Let us hear hon Magwebu make a
declaration.


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Ms N P KONI: I also want to raise the issue of time. May we have the
watch that we had the other time when this thing was not working. We
can put it there so that when three minutes is over it will ring
aloud. We want that one. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me repeat.
Time is not controlled here. Officials who are assisting us with
time are outside. It is also wrong to say that we are manipulating
time.

Declarations of vote:
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chairperson, nine million South Africans are
unemployed and many have given up looking for jobs. More than
three million mainly young black South Africans between the ages of
15 and 24 are not receiving education, are not in employment or lack
the necessary skills making it difficult for them to participate in
the country‘s economy.

Reporting on progress on the Expanded Public Works Programme, Mr
Zuma said, and I quote:


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Since 2014, two million work opportunities had been created on the
road to achieving six million by March 2019, and of this more than
half has been taken by the youth.

What Mr Zuma failed to mention during that time is that the people
who are given jobs must be card-caring members of the ANC and this
is unacceptable and undemocratic. Again, what he failed to mention
was that the same individual can be employed and be given an
opportunity twice and therefore this cannot be translated to the
number of jobs given to the people.

The ANC has refused flatly to implement the Expanded Public Works
Programme in the manner that is fair and transparent. It always
gives the jobs to their families, friends and their girlfriends. I
must mention this.

The DA where it governs it always conducts this programme in a
manner that is fair and transparent regardless of race, gender,
colour, background or any political persuasion. This is how it
should be done to afford every fellow South African an opportunity.
As the DA we have expanded our database to include private employers
to ensure that unemployment is curbed and all South Africans are
given a fair chance.


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The dazzling, the dauntless and decisive DA does not accept this
budget and we reject it. [Applause.]

Mr M RAYI: Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 11. The mandate
of the Department of Public Works is derived from the ANC‘s 2014
election manifesto. In our manifesto we pledged to work towards the
creation of more jobs, decent work and sustainable livelihoods for
inclusive growth. This would include consolidating the Public Works
programmes to create six million work opportunities by 2019 where
many of them will be of long duration.

The Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, commits government to
scale up the Expanded Public Works Programme, in particular the
Community Work Programme, to generate additional employment
opportunities, provide training and work experience and increase
social cohesion. The Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, as a
whole will provide six million work opportunities.

Hon Magwebu, in the committee we were given statistics that the
annual target of 2016-17, for the Eastern Cape, for example,

where

the hon member comes from, is 135 133. To date it is 64 461. We will
invite hon Magwebu to, together, do oversight visit in the Eastern


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Cape where we come from so that we can ask if this 64 464 are all
ANC card-caring members.

The Department of Public Works announced back in 2012 its seven-year
turnaround plan to rebuild Public Works. The plan was based on two
pillars, namely, zero tolerance of corruption and improving the way
the department will do business. The department investigated a total
of 336 allegations reported for the period 2009-10 and 2015-16
financial years. Two hundred and eighty-four have either been
finalised or referred to the SA Police Service, SAPS,
[Interjections.] May you please protect me, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are protected. Hon
members, I am appealing to all of you, do not drown the speaker

Mr M RAYI: Two hundred and eighty-four have either been finalised or
referred to the SAPS, Special Investigation Unit, SIU, or other
entities for further investigation. This include 96 allegations of
fraud and corruption, 113 tender irregularities, 13 irregular
disposal or use of state properties and nine irregular delays in the
payment of service providers. These investigations resulted in 172
disciplinary actions of which 43 were instituted in 2015-16
financial year. Criminal [Time expired.]


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Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, whereas this department is supposed to
play a leading role in the creation of six million job opportunities
by 2019, the jobs that are reported to have been created are
temporary and unsustainable. There is no transfer of qualitative
skills to people. Coupled with the problem is the catulisation is
the fact that a number of South Africans who

find themselves out of

job is on the sharp rise and currently is sitting at 27,7% and the
majority are the young people.

Our support for this budget is a clarion call of the department to
do more in terms of meeting their agreed target, create more
qualitative job opportunities while transferring skills to our
people.

The Independent Development Trust remains in limbo and its future is
uncertain. This is as a result of failure by some government
departments who are not paying for the services it has rendered.
Where not paid, the Independent Development Trust, IDT loses
qualified human capital as a result and some government departments
slowly withdraw business. This vicious cycle hurts our economy and
causes poverty and unemployment. In this regard the UDM calls on the
current administration to immediately find a solution. The Council
for the Built Environment which is suppose to assist with building


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standards and the development of professionals therein appears to be
failing to rise to its challenge.

The Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB, has three crucial
positions filled with acting personnel. This institution that is
responsible for the construction development and industrialisation
last year painted a green picture of the construction development.
Their latest report is no better. There is no report on
socioeconomic impact that is critical. The entity has registered or
poised to register during the 2017 financial year.

Finally, transformation is extremely slow in the sector of economy.
For instance, as at May 2017, 31 000 construction companies
registered with the CIDB in Grade 9, only 27 are black-owned. Out of
42 000 civil engineers in Grade 9, only 39 are black-owned. From the
2 000 electric engineers in Grade 9, only 2 are black-owned. Thank
you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 39: [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]


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NOES - 18: [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa – put.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, Vote 12, all the parties are supporting it so
there‘s no need for bells, we‘re fine with bells.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr. A J Nyambi): Hon members, the problem is
that with Rules you can‘t pick and choose, once you agree then we
have agreed.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I fully agree with what you said now. Please do it,
every time we have a sitting please do it, don‘t pick and choose the
Rules, something you can‘t do. [Applause.]

Mr L B GAEHLER: House Chairperson, earlier when I spoke hon Koni
said I must go and sleep if I‘m tired. She works 24 hours; I‘m
surprised now that the hon member says there‘s no need ... [Laughs.]


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Ms N P KONI: On a point of order Chair. Quickly, to you Chair. Yes,
to you Chairperson. As much as you allowed hon Gaehler, I‘m sure
you‘ll allow me two seconds out of the two and half minutes that are
left?

Hon Gaehler, I said those things about four hours ago, so hon
Gaehler just realised now that I said those things? Meaning he just
woke up now. [Laughter.] You understand? He must not do [Inaudible.]
[Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Take your seat.

Vote No 13 – Women – put.

Declaration(s) of vote:
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: This department has shown little regard for the
thousands of women and children being raped and murdered. The budget
of this department goes towards keeping the Minister and her staff
in cosy luxury, while we the mothers, wives, sisters, daughters and
granddaughters live in fear.

The murder of women in this country is five times higher than any
other place in the world; where a woman is murdered every eight


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hours, and in most cases, by the intimate partner. This figure is so
high that the United Nations has proposed a thermo side watch for
South Africa. Please take not, not our Minister and our department,
but the United Nations.

This department should be focusing the on changing the attitudes of
men and boys, this is not a women‘s problem but a male problem. And
changing how our society perceives women needs to start at an early
stage with awareness drives and education programmes, changing the
perception of a man‘s role towards a woman.

We will support a strong and a viable budget for an effective
department prepared to take on the challenge that is destroying our
homes.

However, the DA will not support a budget to ensure that the
Minister can fly across the world, have a staff contingent that is
huge and a cosy life, yet does nothing to save the most vulnerable,
our women and children.

Minister, why don‘t you fight for victim-friendly rooms at police
stations? That‘s one of the many things that you could do.


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This current Minister and her huge department need to be replaced
with a small but effective department with a caring Minister.

We cannot support this budget with this department where our women
and children have no voice. I thank you.

Ms L C DLAMINI: The ANC supports the Budget Vote 13 Women as an
expression of our commitment to redress the legacy of women
oppression, domination and exclusion.

It takes a person or a party who don‘t care for women to object to
this budget. There is still believe that women must be oppressed;
and they also believe that women are people to be used for voting
because women are the majority; but they object everything ...
[Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon member! Sorry hon
Dlamini. Hon Koni! Can you continue hon Dlamini?

Ms L C DLAMINI: We support this budget informed by the pronouncement
by our forefather that freedom cannot be achieved unless women have
been emancipated from all forms of oppression.


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Our resolve to move with utmost speed and determination to
mainstreaming gender equality in all sectors of South African
society is informed by our atrocious history which is steeped in
institutional racism, which hon Zille like so much, where rights,
life, chances and distribution of goods and services were
predetermined along racial lines and gender. It is also the past,
where respect of dignity of individuals was determined by the colour
of their skin and their gender.

Today, as the ANC, we rise with great humility and pride with the
masses our people that our nation has moved with utmost rigour and
determination to lead a global path towards gender mainstreaming and
equality. We have demonstrated through our activities that the ANC
is the party that cares about our women.

Today we take great pride that our nation has moved with utmost
speed to have one of the most comprehensive national gender
machinery in the world. South Africa is generally acknowledged to be
a model of the best practice by many countries in the African
continent and globally. It is for this reason that we support this
budget. And we‘re saying to these other parties that who are saying
right things are happening to women but decide not to vote for this


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budget, they mean all the programmes that are dedicated to women
should not happen. Thank you, Chair.

Voting

Mr M KHAWULA: No I‘m not resigning. Chair, I‘m objecting to the way
you‘re conducting the business of the day. When it‘s hon Labuschagne
you say can you please assist; when it‘s hon Motara you say can
please assist; but when it‘s Khawula you just say Khawula.
[Laughter.] [Applause.] Please go on and say it all.

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I sustain the point of order.
Can you assist hon Khawula, with those that are abstaining? Please
hon Khawula.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighter
dissenting.)

Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance,
African National Congress, Inkatha Freedom Party and the United
Democratic Movement


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Declarations of Vote:
Ms D B NGWENYA: The EFF rejects Budget Vote No 14 of the Department
of Basic Education; we do so because we firmly believe that this
department has no plan, no vision and no strategic leadership to
sort out the problems facing basic education in this country. Two
decades after freedom, our basic education system is still of
unequal quality; poor and rural schools do not even have half the
facilities that urban schools and those catering for the elites.

We still have schools in rural Mqanduli without access to basic
services such as water, electricity and toilets; libraries and
computers are a distant dream for teachers and learners in these
schools. We still have teachers who are not qualified to teach,
teaching poor rural learners, condemning them to a life of
substandard education. The Department of Basic Education has been
unable, up to this stage, to comprehensively respond to the needs of
learners with special needs and disabled learners. All these
contribute below average performance of grade 12 learners because
they come from an education system that is rotten to the core.

The fixation that Minister and her department seems to have over
matric pass rate is never going to take the department anywhere. We
must go back to the basics, fix schools infrastructure, hire


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qualified and committed teachers, get rid of the influence of SA
Democratic Teachers‘ Union, Sadtu and ensure that all schools, be
the rural or urban, have the same facilities. Only a government led
by carrying incorruptible leaders would ever be able to do this, not
a government that has outsourced its responsibilities to the Guptas
as the ANC has done since Mr Zuma took over. Thank you, Chair.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, each one of us here wants a world class
education system for every South African. I am not going to repeat
this history that we get ad nauseum from the hon member wanting a
better history. However, there is no argument that bantu education
was inferior to that of whites during apartheid era, and that
funding too was skewed toward white schools education; yet, 23 years
of the ANC education during which funding education grew to more
than 6% of the gross domestic product, GDP, the highest in Africa
per capita, funding cannot any longer be blamed that South Africa
year after year produces some of the worst education results in
Africa.

In maths and science, South Africa ranked last out of 140 countries
during a study done in 2014 and 2015. Year after year we see more
than a quarter of grade 12 people failed their final exams and more
shockingly, if the results are closely scrutinised, the matric


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results show that an astonishing 44,6% of learners either dropped
out of the system all together or remain stuck in grade 10 and 11.
More disturbingly, there are allegations that the high drop out rate
may be due to the culling pupils from the system to artificially
make matric results look better, especially in the pursuance of the
obsession to outperform the Western Cape.

A study last year by the Stellenbosch University highlighted the
problems in our system. Poor teacher content knowledge and the
inability to impart knowledge effectively; multiple and continual
changes in the curriculum and policy which undermines and
demoralises educators; obviously the Sadtu captured of the education
system and in fact Sadtu is running education in six of the nine
provinces, including Stellenbosch University refusal to have
educators and principals tested and evaluated; it was found that in
may schools less than half of the official curriculum is covered by
the end of the year; and that of educator absenteeism.

The problem that needs fixing is clear and defined. However, the
lack of the political will of the Minister and the lack of the
ability and capacity of the mostly captured department through its
layers of management make the turn around of education highly


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unlikely under an ANC –led government. The DA does support this
Budget Vote.

IsiXhosa:
Nks P C SAMKA: Mhlalingaphambili, i-ANC iphakamisa ukuxhasa iVoti
yoHlalo-lwabiwo-mali ye-14.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Mama, closer to the mike.

IsiXhosa:
Nks P C SAMKA: I-ANC iphakamisa ukuxhasa iVoti yoHlalo-lwabiwo-mali
ye-14. Iyothusa into yokuba kubekho abantu kule Ndlu abathi imfundo
yocalucalulo yayingcono kunale. Loo nto indinika umnqa mna mntu ke
wohlanga oluntsundu. UMqulu weNkululeko uthi phakathi kwezinye
iinkqubo iza kuvula iiNgcango zoLwazi neNkcubeko. I-ANC ithathe
inxaxheba enkulu ukuqinisekisa ukuba bonke abantwana bayafikelela
kwimfundo esisiseko nesemgangathweni.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, we cannot allow that... the member should
sit. The member is not sitting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Samke can you take your
seat.


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Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, you certainly cannot allow a person to put
words in my mouth, seconds after I have spoken, totally turning
around what I said. This is totally unacceptable. I said the
apartheid system was bad and she‘s now said that I had come and said
that it was good. That is a plain lie. The member is a liar.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members - no take your
seat hon Chief Whip - it is unacceptable that you will be engaged in
a debate but at the same time it is also unacceptable that you will
deliberately make a statement in the House whilst knowing that that
statement is also false. Therefore, I am appealing to all of you,
let us refrain from distorting each other and let us not debate; let
us not debate let us allow the declaration to go on. Hon Samke, you
are protected.

Ms P BOSHIELO: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: Is it
parliamentary to say bull shit in this House? This member just said
bull shit.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it is not parliamentary.
Hon Hattingh - Order members! - did you say bull shit?


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Mr C HATTINGH: No, I said the member is a liar; I did not use that
word, check Hansard. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, order members!
Hon members, what we will do, will consult Hansard and make a ruling
at a later stage. Can you continue hon member.

Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ka Setswana sa kwa gae fa o re bull
shit go raya mantle a kgomo, ga se tlhapa. Ke mantle a kgomo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J NYAMBI): hon Mokwele, you are out of
order, Hon Samke can you continue.

IsiXhosa:
Nks P C SAMKA: Bekani iindlebe mhlaba, yivani mazulu; ndizele
abantwana ndabakhulisa, ndabondla kodwa basuka bakreqa kum; ingcono
imbongolo ne-esile kuba iyasazi isistali somnikazi waso kodwa umntu
kaSirayeli yena akandazi; kufana nale nto yenzeka kule Ndlu.

I-ANC iye yafumanisa ukuba imfundo isisiseko njengoko sele nditshilo
kwaye iza kuqinisekisa ukuba abantwana abasakhulayo bafumana imfundo
esemgangathweni kweli lizwe. Ukuqinisekisa ukuba oku kuyaphunyezwa,


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i-ANC igxile ngokufanelekileyo kwimisebenzi echaphazela kakhulu
abafundi, ootitshala kwakunye nemfundo jikelele. Isibonelelo
sezemfundo sezikolo kunye nenkqubo yesondlo yezikolo zidlala indima
ephambili ekuphumezeni imfundo esemgangathweni kuwo onke amaphondo
ukuqinisekisa ukuba bonke abafundi bayaqhuba nokufumana ukutya
nangona uqoqosho lungamanga kakuhle. Imfundo ebandakanyayo ihlala
ingundoqo kwimfundo esisiseko kunye nokuphuhliswa nokwabelwa
kwabafundi abanezakhono zobugcisa kwisibonelelo esinemiqathango
kubonisa ukuzibophelela kwethu ekuqhubeleni phambili iinkonzo zethu
nokukhusela abafundi abasemngciphekweni kweli lizwe.

Olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali lubonisa ukuqhutyelwa phambili kombono
woMqulu weNkululeko ukuqinisekisa ukuba umgaqo ngamnye uyasebenza
kwaye ukhusela iinkqubo zentlalo nezoqoqosho, nokuphucula ubomi
babafundi ngaphakathi nangaphandle kweklasi. Enkosi,
Mhlalingaphambili.

I-ANC iyayixhasa le Voti yoHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.

IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Siluxhasa sinjalo olu Hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.

English:


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The Education Charter campaign was about centrality of the parent,
scholar and the teacher in the learning and teaching process. This
should be the guide as we approve this budget. The scholar transport
has collapsed in the Eastern Cape and must be revised with speed
before we can drop out of this academic season. This scholar
transport must be monitored so that it is not a death of young souls
as we witnessed in the first and second quarter of this year.

The quality of education leaves much to be desired and if heads need
to roll then the country must forget about the future generation.
Unfortunately, as we roll out poor education, we are also planting
seeds for nonperforming economy, thus perpetuating poverty,
unemployment and inequality. We make a call to the Minister and the
department to spend more time in making sure that our system
produces good quality education and promotes centres of excellence.
We call on government to ensure that South Africa is a simplest
integrated education system that is unable to interface from the
preschooling stage to the tertiary level. It is when this system is
in place that we shall be able to avoid drop outs. SA Democratic
Teachers‘ Union, Sadtu, must be stopped from coup governing. This is
one of the reasons for the collapse of our basic education. Thank
you.


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Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, whilst the Minister of Basic Education
keeps on denying it, the IFP is adamant that reducing pass levels in
order to make greater numbers of our learners pass exams at the
expense of quality is not necessary, and is destroying the quality
and future of our learners and our education system.

We have seen this being done with mathematics, not just in grade 12
but also in other lower grades at the instruction of the national
education. Last year, in 2016, in our final National Senior
Certificate, NSC, results, out of 58 subjects written 28 subjects
were pushed upwards in order to make learners who have failed passed
the examination. This is not standardisation; it is abnormal and
must come to an end.

IsiZulu:
Yikona ke Sihlalo okwenza ukuthi abafundi uma befika emaNyuvesi
besuka

...

English:
... secondary schools failed to cope with the transition from
secondary education level to tertiary education level.


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The IFP is concerned with the roll over of the infrastructure
development budget of the department whilst schools do not have
resources. Yesterday at the education imbizo of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr
Dlamini of the National Teachers‘ Union, Natu, principal of Umlazi
Comtech Secondary lamented the poor state of conditions in some
KwaZulu-Natal schools such as poor sanitation, dilapidating
classrooms, no libraries, no laboratories and no administration
blocks, etc; yet, the department fails to spend money budgeted for
the year to provide these services. Thank you, Chair.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 39: [Take in from minutes.]

NOES - 18: [Take in from minutes.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting.

APPROPRIATION BILL


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(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

Vote No 15 — Higher Education and Training — put.

Declaration(s) of vote:
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, we have an interpretation service. I think
some of the members who do not understand English should perhaps
listen to the interpretation. [Interjections.]

The real indicator of Higher Education‘s financial health is the
level of subsidy, which is a disaster. [Interjections.] University
subsidies are far below what is required ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members!

Mr C HATTINGH: ... and will continue to increase at way below the
required rate of 8% to 10%.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh ...
[Interjections.] Order, members! Hon Hattingh, one thing for sure,
all languages have the same status in South Africa. Refrain from
anything that will create unnecessary noise. I‘m just appealing.


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Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, I‘m just saying there are misunderstandings in
... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... which is not my first
language.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, you are protected.
Continue.

Ms N P KONI: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am protecting you. I‘m
protecting you.

Ms N P KONI: On a point of order, Chair!

Mr C HATTINGH: You should use this thing.

Ms N P KONI: Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘m protecting you.

Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you.

Ms N P KONI: Chairperson ...


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry, hon Hattingh, let me
deal with hon Koni.

Ms N P KONI: Since you are entertaining the issue of the unbecoming
language in this House, we are used to hon Hattingh‘s language. You
know, the vulgar words that he continuously uses in this House and
he was never, at any given time, thrown out of this House.

So, you, Chairperson, sitting there, must tell us why. That is why
he is continuing because nothing is being done. You are always
consulting Hansard but you never come back to us. Never!

So, let this, today, be the last time that we allow hon Hattingh to
insult us like this. It‘s very wrong. He‘s very old, but he should
be leading by example, you know. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Take your seat, hon Koni. Hon
members ... hon members, in making a ruling about the point of order
raised by hon Koni, I‘m going to treat all of you the same way.
Refrain from anything that will create problems and compromise the
decorum of the House. Hon Hattingh, you are protected. Please
continue.


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Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you. That‘s another member who should use the
earphone.

Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges were
part of a dream. Yet, instead of growing the number of college
students, we saw a 32% decline from 2015 to 2016 in the number of
students enrolled for the National Certificate Vocational, NCV,
Level 4. Sixty per cent of TVET colleges are dysfunctional, with a
pass rate of less than 40%. Less than 5% of the initial intake
passed Level 4 in the prescribed time.

The department is only providing 54% of the operating budgets that
TVET colleges are entitled to. Due to the complete lack of capital
budgets for years, most of the equipment needed for training is
completely outdated.

Putting money into the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, Nsfas,
assists students of course, but the most that Nsfas funding can do
for universities and colleges themselves is to reduce what is owed
to them by students. This is important, but it does not address the
fundamentals of the system — the continued and prolonged
underfunding of our higher education system.


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The third arm of the department, the sector education and training
authorities, Setas, are meant to provide us with another route to
skills acquisition, and the R13,6 billion they control should go a
lot further than it actually does at this stage. The Setas are
stagnating.

The DA, by contrast, is committed to a flourishing higher education
sector, to an end to waste and neglect and to ensuring that our
youth is provided with the skills and knowledge to make a real
contribution to a growing economy. The DA does not support the
Higher Education budget.

In conclusion, perhaps ... [Interjections.] ... those people who
refer to old people while they are very young should show respect to
older people. Thank you.

Ms D B NGWENYA: I do not plan to insult anyone, don‘t worry. Free
decolonised education ... [Interjections.] ... No, can I have order
here, please, Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are protected.


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Ms D B NGWENYA: Thank you. Hon Hattingh, I can‘t concentrate. Can I
... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh, can you face
this side? [Interjections.] No, hon Chabangu. Can you face this
side? Don‘t disturb. Can you continue, hon Ngwenya?

Ms D B NGWENYA: Thank you Chair. [Interjections.] Free decolonised
education is a fundamental prerequisite for radical economic
transformation and the development of a self-sufficient economy that
benefits and supports all South Africans. It is why we as the EFF
unconditionally support the demands made by students throughout the
country for free decolonised education. We want to pay tribute to
the countless students and workers engaged in the struggle for free
decolonised education and the end to outsourcing, with special
mention of the 500 students arrested and hundreds of workers fired
in this continuing struggle.

We do not simply make these statements because we are opposition,
but because there is empirical evidence throughout the developed and
developing world of the long-term positive consequences that free
education has on the development of an economy and society.


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We also know that the resources are available but the fear and
inability to use these resources is why we are partly unable to
address the racial economic inequalities in our country and patterns
of ownership; why we have a lack of skills in all sectors of the
country; why we have bright, energetic South Africans with no future
but to turn to crime and drugs; and why we don‘t have the necessary
skills to deliver services to our people. It is the reason there has
been no increase in coloured and black student enrolment in tertiary
institutions over the past 12 years, despite there being a marked
increase in the enrolment of white students.

Free education combined with decolonised education will not only
address the syllabus which continues to perpetuate a European
understanding of the world which often undermines Africans, but it
will also create an economy that is decolonised in that it is not
reliant on the still dominant colonial modes of production and
systems of trade which continue to leave this country and the rest
of Africa underdeveloped.

This illustrates why free decolonised education is fundamental to
transforming our economy and, until the department budgets for this,
the EFF will not support its budget.


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Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, the ANC rises in support of Budget Vote
No 15. In commemoration of the adoption of the Freedom Charter
which, amongst other pronouncements, declared that doors of learning
and culture shall be opened, great strides have been made since the
dawn of our democracy to ensure that access and success remain
important pillars of our education and training system, in
particular education and training for the poor and working class.

The ANC continues to expand access through the increased allocation
of Nsfas to institutions in the post-school sector and ensures that
success in tandem with access in particular is achieved for the poor
and working class.

This budget ensures that the funding is strategically prioritised
throughout the Vote to ensure that, in line with the White Paper for
Post-School Education and Training and the National Development Plan
Vision 2030, Outcome 5 of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework which
seeks to ensure that there is a skilled and capable workforce to
support an inclusive growth path, is progressively realised. It
unpacks the funding challenges that confront the sector.
Nonetheless, it does provide guidance on how the targets and
objectives of this sector will be achieved.


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Technical and vocational education and training, commonly known as
TVET, and the skills development programme by the Setas, are
significant in meeting the demands of the industry and that of the
economy of the country.

Scarce and critical skills produced by post-school education and
training institutions are important in advancing our country in
relation to development and economic growth. This should respond to
the fourth industrial revolution. The development and training of
highly skilled artisans that are of high calibre remains a priority
for the ANC-led government.

This budget is a demonstration of the progressive realisation of the
vision of the Freedom Charter, and the ANC supports the budget.
[Applause.]

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, the UDM supports Budget Vote No 15. We
hope that with this budget the government will pay more attention to
the ... [Inaudible.] ... of poor quality facilities and
administration at various TVET campuses.

The TVET colleges should be the answer to the country‘s twin
problems of youth unemployment which stands at more than 50% and an


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artisan shortage. There must be a relationship between the financial
investment in TVET colleges and their performances. In other words,
these colleges cannot be used to simply keep the youth off the
streets.

The second is a question of the absorption of TVET college
graduates. We suggest the following. Specific skills required from
these colleges should be linked to skills required in various
government departments, government entities and municipalities.

The public sector procurement policy framework should be considered
as a mechanism to ensure that both the public and private sectors
employ TVET graduates. The Department of Small Business Development
should develop and implement programmes that target these graduates
straight from school to business work.

Finally, more work has to be done to ensure that the private sector
does more to recognise the pool of technical knowledge and use it to
grow the economy, but also to develop these graduates into business
people.

Division demanded.


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The Council divided.

[VOTING — TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Business suspended at 12:47 and resumed at 14:00

Vote No 16 – Health - put

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The doors now can be locked.
Is there any objections? We are dealing with Vote 16 Health. Sorry,
hon Labuschagne, it is only objections

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: We are declaring divide.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
DA and they are going to make declarations and they are dividing.

Ms T G MOKWELE: The EFF object with declaration.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
EFF.

Declarations of vote:
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: We as the DA currently don‘t support the
state of the country‘s Department of Health Budget Vote 16. We
believe that South Africans deserve better services and all these
services are possible through better governance that will allow
freedom, fairness and job opportunities to all. This is a health
right as per the South African Constitution.

The government is spending far too much exorbitant amount of money
unnecessarily by making payout of over 1 billion due to cases of
medical negligence. We as the DA are of the opinion that such
expense could have been avoided, had the state exercised due precautions and care as we always say prevention is better than cure.

We also believe that the budgeting for the National Health Insurance
Fund, NHI, needs a re-evaluation. Currently the issues on fund
focuses on should be fitted to other issues that shift the focus on
the more vulnerable members of this society.


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We are proud to announce that the DA run Western Cape Province, the
government services are considered of a better quality than other
services that are offered in eight other provinces. This is evident
in the fact that the DA run province has higher life expectancy
other than any other ones in so called vulnerable ages.

Further note that we remain committed to the World Health
Organisation goal of reaching the 19- 1990 mark by the year 2020 and
90% infected people will know of their status and have access to
appropriate medical treatment and have infection suppress.

In Kopanong, this is a dream for the people of Free State and
because of these above facts it is clear that the DA run government
is the most appropriate to deal with the various health crisis that
currently South Africa faces and we are ready to govern in 2019. I
thank you.

Ms D B NGWENYA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects Budget Vote 16 on the
Department of Health. The EFF aspires for accessible high performing
public health systems that eliminates health disparities and
provides quality health care fostered by multi sectoral mobilisation
under adapt management, leadership and governance. Unfortunately
South Africa is very far from achieving these ideals.


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Firstly, public health sector is littered with examples of poor
leadership, neglect of the public health care sector leading to
preventable death amongst the poorest of the poorest and most
vulnerable of our people. This is caused amongst other things by
tolerance of ineptitude and failures in leadership, management and
governance.

A district health system that doesn‘t adequately drive the delivery
of primary health care and the unsolved health work force crushers
and this constitute a conjoin threat to the feasibility of the NHI.

Secondly, good quality health care remains inaccessible to the vast
majority of the people who don‘t have access to medical aid. Only
17,4% of the population is medical covered and that is just
9,4 million people, leaving 45 million people without cover. Further
more, only 10,5% of black African people are covered by private
medical insurance compared to 72,7% of white people.

To highlight the depth of the problem, there are 25 state doctors
and 92 private sector doctors per 100000 people in South Africa.
This is therefore means that if you have money and can afford
private medical care you are more likely to get help than if you are
a poor black person and have no other option but to use the public


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health system. That must entail the dismantling of the divide
between the public and the private health care sector.

The country must have one health care system that takes care of all
South Africans. Therefore, for these reasons we reject this Budget
Vote of Health. Thank you Chairperson.

Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Chairperson, the ANC rise in support of the
Appropriation Vote 16 of Health and the reasons for this are as
follows: the ANC is committed to working tirelessly towards
improving equality quality and access to health care across all
South Africans.

It is worth noting that while we have made progress in health as
observed by the Statistician-General in South African demographic
and health survey. We still have not translated very important part
of the Constitution into health reality. It is this proposes that
the first step towards implementation of the NHI is to pick up those
who are outside the system of medical aid and provide services from
them through the NHI Fund which must be created from amongst others.

The 20 billion tax credits endorsed by the United Nations in 2015
and in all 194 countries and will implement it. The 20 billion given


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to all who have joined medical scheme is separated from the
26,7 billion which is the total of all medical aid subsidised to
those employed by the state.

Some of the South Africans who will benefit from the NHI Fund once
it has been established have been identified as follows: the 5000
school kids mentioned by the Minister in his 2017 Budget Vote Speech
will be provided free anti-natal care in the form of eight visits to
a doctor to each of 1,2 million women who fall pregnant annually.

We will also provide them with family planning, provide for breast
and cervical cancer, scanning as well as the treatment where
appropriate. We will able to provide better service for mental
health users, screening and subsequent services. We will help the
elders with assertive devices like spectacles, hearing ears and
wheel chairs, doing it with this in mind that the ANC is in full
support of the Health Appropriate Vote 16. I thank you, hon
Chairperson.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP is concerned about the
crumbling state of health in the provinces in South Africa where
vacancies are not filled, where the important equipments in the
hospitals and the clinics doesn‘t get repaired on time, where


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procurement for such equipment is in shambles and we see the NHI not
as being a saviour to the issues like laziness, to the issues like
people not caring for the kind of work they are doing.

The failure of the national Minister to reign in on these kinds of
activities and rescue South African health system is also a concern.
Two weeks ago when we were debating health in this House, the IFP
raised an issue of doctors, young doctors and other specialists, who
are sitting at home unemployed and the Minister denied this.

Last week, the ANC Youth League in KZN issued a statement to the
effect that in KZN there is more than 100 doctors and specialists
sitting at home unemployed. Now, I wonder whether this will now make
sense just because it is the ANC youth league saying it, when it was
the IFP saying it and it didn‘t make sense.

The national Minister seems to be far removed from the goings on the
ground. The Minister seems to be very clueless about the goings on
the ground. We have said this repeatedly in this House that the
Minister makes the right noises when he talks about health issues
but when it comes to practicality he lacks so much. What he says is
not what it is taking place on the ground. The promises made by
government, the Minister and the department up to now have not been


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fulfilled in improving health in South Africa. Those are the
concerns we have as the IFP. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

AYES - 37: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
N; Khawula M; Khumalo S; Lasindwa, L; Mahlakeng, M; Makue, E R;
Mampuru,T K; Manopole, Tuesday, 27 June 2017 A 66 G M; Mateme, H E;
Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D; Mohai, S J;
Moshodi, M L; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J M; Ncitha, Z
V; Ndamase, M; Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J
P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B T; Siwela,
V S; Skhosana ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 18: Chabangu, M M; Chetty, M; Engelbrecht, B; Faber, W F;
Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt J J; Koni, N P;
Magwebu, L V;Mathevula,B T; Michalakis, G; Mokwele,T J; MpamboSibhukwana,T G; Ngwenya, D B; Pittaway, M; Smit C F B; Terblanche,O
S.

ABSTAIN – 1: Gaehler, LB


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Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Vote No 17 – Social Development – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi):

Objection of the Democratic Alliance
Declaration of Votes by DA, ANC, EFF, IFP, UDM,

Declarations of Vote:
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, a question in Parliament last
month revealed that during the past three years 136 children had
died every month from malnourishment and related causes by the ANC
not being in support of the DA‘s proposal to increase funding for
the child‘s grant. It has directly and deliberately failed to
support the South African mother and their fight against
malnutrition and hunger in the country. This affects their
performance in schools as this impact on their motor neurones.

We as the DA had proposed an amendment to the Appropriation Bill to:
Firstly, increase the child grant by R2,8 billion in order to


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prevent malnutrition among children from the ages 0 to 2 years.
Secondly, the increase of social grants by R1,7 billion in order to
assist people battling with high food prices that escalate day by
day. It is important, Chairperson, to note that an increase in
spending is necessary based on the nature of this crisis. This is a
humanitarian crisis as well as economic disaster.

This should not be the standard after 23 years into our democracy;
malnutrition currently affects 30% of the children in South Africa
which is concerning. Especially, since we know that if children
don‘t receive sufficient quality food in the first two years of
their lives they cannot be expected to develop well and manage well
in school as the damage at that stage would be permanent.

I also wish to reiterate that the R3 million that the Minister used
in the previous funding could have been allocated elsewhere in the
children‘s development and, safe to say, that Minister Bathabile
Dlamini still needs to pay back the R3 million that was allocated to
the VIP protection of her own children and her spokesperson, Lumka
Oliphant. She must pay back the money and then we can see as to how
we can allocate to develop children, to develop their motor neurones
so that they perform better at school. We don‘t support this budget.
Thank you.


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Siswati:
Ms L C DLAMINI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo. Kunesisho seSiswati
lestitsi: Imfene ayilulahli lukhobo lwayo. Ngiko nje ubona lapha ka
DA kunebantfu labanjenga babe Hattingh.

English:
Hon Chair, the ANC as a mass movement has a responsibility to
continue providing services to our people, because as we are here we
are representing them. Most of the people who we are representing as
the ANC ...

Siswati:
... bantfu labahola letimali lesinato lapha kaSocial services,
nangabe utsi awubasekeli usho kutsi labo gogo. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let us not drawn
the speaker please, let us allow hon Dlamini to continue.

Siswati:
Ms L C DLAMINI: Sihlalo, bengisati-ke asimangali nangabe i-DA itsi
alisekeli lelitiko leli ngoba abanendzaba nalabantfu labadzala
lekufanele bahole lomhlala phansi; abanendzaba nebantfu


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labakhubatekile; abanendzaba nebantfwana labatintsandzane; kwabo nje
kutsi batfole emavoti kuphela.

English:
Hon Chairperson, the ANC represent all of those people. In the
budget that is allocated to this department R160 billion, R151
billion has been allocated to social assistance to pay pensions to
elderly people without considering their gender and colour; to war
veterans; people with disabilities, foster care, care dependency,
child support, grant in aid, social relief of distress, this money
is dedicated to those people. So, we cannot afford not to support
it, chair.

We also want to ensure that 133 365 children access Early Childhood
Developments, ECDs, for the first time. On social crime, we say
women are killed day in and day out. About 87 000 of them will
receive access to command centres; people who are HIV-positive are 2
622 880 beneficiaries, and will reach through EPSS. We are also
saying that people with disabilities received their grants through
this money; 203 708 [Interjections.] We are now dealing with
orphans.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana! Hon
Mokwele, why are you standing?

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order, Chair, I did not hear what the
hon Dlamini said on the numbers. She was saying 2 800 682, so, can
she, I can‘t get ... [Interjections.] no we just need to note it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not a point of order,
continue hon Dlamini.

Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. We are also saying
... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Dlamini, Sikhathi
Siphelile. [Time expired.]

IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, iqembu leNkatha yeNkululeko lishaqekile
ngokusetshenziswa budedengu kwenkece yezibonelelo yilabo
abangabaphathi bezwe. UNgqongqoshe walo mnyango ulawule ukuba
kuthathwe inkece yezibonelelo eSassa, kuqashe abaqaphi bokuqapha
izingane zakhe. Uphinde alawula ukuba kuqashwe abaqaphi bokuqapha


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umkhulumeli wehhovisi lakhe uNkosazana Lumka Oliphant. Lobo
ubudedengu bokuphathwa kwenkece obusezingeni eliphezulu.

Lo mnyango ufake uhulumeni wonke enkungeni enkulu, wehluleka
nokuqasha inkampani yokuholela izimbonelelo esikhathini seminyaka
emihlanu abekade unikwe yona yiNkantolo enkulu yoMthethosisekelo.
Lokhu kwehluleka bekungahambi kodwa, kepha kuyasolisa ukuthi
kunalabo ababekade beconsela amathe inkece yezibonelelo ukuzihlumisa
bona. Sikushayela ihlombe siyi-IFP ukuthi leli thenda selizoqashwa
ngeso lokhozi yinkantolo enkulu.

Lo mnyango usetshenziswe kabi ngaphambilini wenziwa ithulizi
lokukhankasela izinketho yiqembu elibusayo. Lokhu bekwenziwa lapho
kunezinketho khona, kukhishwe izijumbana zokudla ngenjongo
yokuthenga amavoti. Siyi-IFP siyakuthokozela ukuthi abantu bakithi
sebeqale ukufundiseka kahle, abantu sebeyazi ukuthi inkece
kahulumeni akuyona eyeqembu elibusayo kepha ingeyabo. Sebakufundile
ukuthatha izijumbana zokudla zemali yabo njengabavoti kepha bese
bevota ngendlela abayithandayo. Sengathi leli vangeli lingasabalala
kakhulu lokwazi ukuthi imali kahulumeni ngeyomphakathi.


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Iqembu leNkatha liyayisekela le voti hhayi ngoba izinto zihamba
kahle, kepha sisekela ukuba abantu abantulayo baqhubeke ngokunikwa
izimpesheni nezibonelelo zabo ngemali yabo. Siyathokoza.

IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Sihlalo weNdlu, kwakhona siphinda siyakhala
ngendlela esetyenziswa ngayo le mali enceda abantwana.
Kuyafumaniseka ukuba isetyenziswa gwenxa kwaye sicela isebe ukuba
liyijonge le nto. Abantu ebekufanele ukuba bayayijonga le nto
ngoonontlalo-ntle kodwa uyakufumanisa ukuba ababonakali phaya
ezantsi ebantwini. Ukuba uya ngaphaya ezilalini nasezilokishini uye
ufumanise ukuba aba bantwana bayalamba, iimali zabo azisetyenziswa
ngendlela elungileyo.

Sicela isebe ukuba likhuphe oonontlalo-ntle abasebenzisana ngqo
nabantu. Enye ingxaki yile mali itsalwayo kule mali yesibonelelo
ekuthiwa yimali ye-airtime. Uye uzibuze umbuzo wokuba imvume ivela
phi kule mali itsalwayo. Iyasothusa ukuba uMphathiswa wesebe
angayihoyi loo nto yokutsalelwa kwabantu abadala imali. Ngoko ke
siyacela ukuba loo nto iqwalaselwe. Uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali lona
siluxhasa ngakumbi kuba lunceda aba bantu bahluphekayo phaya
ezantsi. Ukuba ngaba aba bantu abasayi kuyifumana le mali baya kufa.
Siyi-UDM siluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kuba sicingela aba bantu


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baphaya ezantsi. Siphila nabo ke thina aba bantu kuba ngabamelwane
bethu, abanye sikhula nabo kwaye abanye bayasizala. Imeko yabo
siyayazi. Siyaluxhasa uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kodwa ezi zinto ziyafuna
ukuba ziqwalaselwe. Enkosi.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

[Take in from Minutes.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 18 – Correctional Services - put.

Objection of the EFF.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Mr A J Nyambi: I will now put vote 19.

Mr L B GAEHLER: No, you didn‘t ask for declaration of votes on
Correctional service.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Mr A J Nyambi: Correctional services?

Mr L B GAEHLER: Yes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Mr A J Nyambi: Ok.

Declarations of Vote:
Mr L B GAEHLER: Thank you, Chairperson. Although the UDM supports
the budget however, we are concerned regarding what appeared in the
social media. There is a lot of overcrowding in the correctional
services centres. They have been requesting for a budget for
overcrowding. However, we are concerned to see that the department
expands to hire strippers in our Correctional services centres.

Worst of all, we thought that the Department of Women and the
leaders of woman would at least have a media statement on this
because ...

IsiXhosa:
... ngabantwana bethu aba bantswayiza phaya.

English:
It is woman abuse...


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IsiXhosa:
... le ibisenzeka phaya. Bekuza kwenzeka ntoni ukuba aba bantwana
bebehlaselwe zeza zikrelemnqa? Siyacela kweli sebe ukuba le nto
mayiphandwe kuba imbi kakhulu kumntu ontsundu ukubona abantwana
abangamantombi bentswayiza; becofana bekwaphuzana namabanjwa kwiJele
i-Johhanesburg Medium-B Correctional Services.

English:
It is very bad, worst of all...

IsiXhosa:
... sithi sineSebe lezoMama kubuMongameli lithule lithi cwaka ngaloo
nto leyo. Sinayo nenkokeli yomama ohloniphekileyo uBathabile Dlamini
kodwa naye udla imu, akathethi ngento embi ola hlobo.

English:
What was happening was woman abuse. The UDM condemns it and we ask
that there must be an investigation to what happened there. Thank
you.

Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.

Declaration(s) of Vote


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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, any public representative with a sense
of duty towards our country would be deeply worried about the state
of our armed forces and our nation‘s military capacity. It has been
stated over the past few years that our military is in a steady and
constant decline, and if there is no political will to intervene
urgently, we will soon face a state of complete collapse.

We know how our service men and women have to make do on a day to
day basis with the limited resources at their disposal and for their
continued dedication and patriotism despite these challenges, we
salute them. However, by under resourcing the military or by
continued irregular and wasteful spending of money, not least for
the VIP travels, we are not only letting down those who put their
lives in danger for the country, but we are also placing the
security of this country at risk.

In order to implement the defence review and to build the capacity
to defend our country and to fulfil our obligations towards the
region and continent, this budget simply won‘t do. We cannot support
this budget.

Mr E M MLAMBO: Chair, as the ANC, we support this Budget Vote No 19.
As the ANC, we recognise the role played by the defence force, both


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domestic and abroad. The ANS has, and still stands for peace and
friendship. We also recognise the growing instability in other
regions of the continent as it has a potential for political,
economic and security implications for our own country.

The Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, Appropriations for
fiscus, is also not stable, with the budget cuts that are being
applied year on year. The Defence Budget has thus behalf a
percentage of the Gross Domestic Product, GDP, in the last 22 years,
while the ordered commitments of the defence force has, in fact,
increased.

We need a highly trained professional and disciplined force that is
sufficiently resourced, to protect the people, the country and the
constitutional democracy. The ANC welcomes the patriotism that has
been portrayed by the other opposition parties towards this budget.
It shows that they love the country and its people. But the DA are
hypocrites because in the committee, they agreed that the Budget of
Defence is too small. We even met with the Treasury concerning this.
It is simply because that they do not care about our defence force,
the safety of our people and the country.


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We also know that they are being pushed, as they can see that the
ANC is being handled by the Guptas. On the other hand, they are
handled by the western imperialists. As the ANC, we support this
Budget Vote. I thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

[Take in from Minutes.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate- put

Ms T J MOKWELE: How do we agree to this? We object because we can‘t
agree to Umkhonto we Sizwe Military Veterans' Association, MKVA.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J NYAMBI): We are dealing with the
Independent Police Investigative Directorate


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Ms T J MOKWELE: But you‘ve got members there. Why are you . . . huh?
We object. You know they are fighting each other those Directors
there.

Vote No 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put.

Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: We support Vote 20 but the EFF had the objection.
Now the bells must ring for Vote 21.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, we are dealing with Vote
21.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 22 – Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration
- put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We are going to have the
bells ringing for three minutes. Can we have the doors locked? We
note the objection of the DA.


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Declaration of votes:
Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, very much Chair. As the EFF, we fully
support Budget Vote 22, of the Office of the Chief Justice and
Judicial Administration. The importance of the Office of Chief
Justice is to protect the Constitution and to hold both the
executive and the legislature to account, and cannot be ignored.

In the past year, we have seen the important role that the Office of
Chief Justice has played in keeping a corrupt, unaccountable
President and executive in check despite many attacks.

Among many of some key functions of the Office of the Chief Justice
include the training of the judicial officers in the country in
support of the development of the judicial policy, norms and
standards; and supporting of the judicial function of the superior
court.

That is why we view the current budget of R1,98 billion insufficient
and does not allow the Office of the Chief Justice to fully carry
out its functions, which have never been more important giving the
attacks on our Constitution and democracy by the executive and the
President.


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Therefore, it makes the 2,3%, a real increase troubling. The
consequences of this limited budget are highlighted in the key
strategic risk as emphasised by the Office of the Chief Justice.

This includes inadequate budget to capacitate the office; inadequate
IT infrastructure; an inadequate resource to facilitate training of
the judicial officers and insufficient support provided to the
superior court.

These challenges and risk were not highlighted by the EFF but by the
Office of the Chief Justice themselves, and are all related to lack
of funds proving the need for a large budget for the Office of the
Chief Justice.

Despite these many funding challenges, though, the Office of Chief
Justice has performed a lot better than nearly all its counterparts
and continues to put all its efforts into upholding our Constitution
and defending our democracy. Therefore, as the EFF we fully support
the budget of the Office of the Chief Justice. Thank you,
Chairperson.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Thank you, Chair. The establishment of the Budget
Vote of the Office of the Chief Justice by the ANC is not by a court


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of order. We did it because we are committed to the implementation
of separation of powers and the recognition of the independent
judiciary that is accountable to the Judicial Service Commission.

Hon Chairperson, it is hypocritical of the EFF to support this
budget when their Commander in Chief is continuously fighting
against the laws of this country, appearing in courts and continuing
to disregard the views of the courts in regards to the behaviour.

Chair, he continues to violate in disregard of justice and the law
in the country by instigating people in hate speech including the
end land grabs and the many. We are committed in the rule of law as
the ANC. We are committed Chair. This is the third year of the ...
[Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele! Sorry, hon
Nzimande. Hon Mokwele, we are not going to continue like this.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chair, this is the third year this office has
been established. So, it is the office in making. There are projects
of making sure that it fully attains its efficiency, its competence
and the representative composition in its staff and in the bench it
becomes our preoccupation going forward.


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Chair, in the words of the Chief Justice himself, he recognised that
the executive has subjected itself to the orders of this court and
he had applauded that. We further congratulate the appointment of
the Chief Justice as the president of the Association of Justice in
the continent of Africa.

This is the recognition of the decision that was made by the ANC in
supporting this Chief Justice, against the aspersion, the doubts and
even the disagreements that were made by the opposition parties when
President Zuma appointed this Chief Justice during the
recommendations and the appointment after the interviews of the
Judicial Commission.

We declare in favour of this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote No 23 – Police – put.

Declarations of vote:
Mrs M PITTAWAY (Free State): The SA Police Services has for many
years now received one of the largest budget allocations of all
state departments. It serves to create the impression that
government is serious about fighting crime whilst it is actually an
acknowledgement that the crisis has become uncontrollable for the


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ANC-led government. If these financial resources were correctly
applied, it would surely have a massive impact for the better on the
lives of our people.

However, this government has proven over a period of 23 years that
it is not competent in protecting our people. Corruption, criminal
activities from within and the cover up thereof is crippling the SA
Police Service. From service men and women who remain in this
service despite questionable activities on their side, the conflict
between SA Police Service and the Ipid, to the fact that the last
four national commissioners have been some of the most questionable
characters within the service. These are supposed to be the leaders;
no wonder there is no trust between the public and the SA Police
Service.

The DA has ad nauseam requested that fair allocation of police
resources go to those areas, especially here in the Cape where crime
and violence is at its worst. The ANC is in charge of the police and
at this stage the ANC shows no will to protect the people. We have
also called on numerous occasions for specialised units, such as
those for drugs, here in the Cape.


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After a resolution was unanimously passed by this House against farm
murders in rural provinces such as the Free State, Limpopo and the
North West, the NCOP‘s resolution was ignored by the then Minister
and his department. Instead of protecting the people, it is clear
that this budget is rather to serve the corrupt and the VIPs. The
distinction between the two is growing fainter by the day. We cannot
support this budget. [Applause.]

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, as the ANC, we support Vote No 23:
Police. Vote 25!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is Vote 23!

Mr D L XIMBI: Yes, Vote 23! I am sorry, Chairperson.

IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo, amapolisa esinawo namhlanje angumohluko omkhulu kumapolisa
angaphambili awayephethwe yi-DA. Namhlanje asinayo i-Civil Cooperation Bureau, CCB, nazo zonke ezi zinto i-DA ithetha ngazo.
Sinamapolisa kwaye siyawazi umsebenzi wamapolisa ukuba yintoni na.

English:


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The police have to prevent combat and investigate crime; maintain
public order; protect and secure the inhabitants of South Africa and
their property; and uphold and enforce the law. In respect of
contact crimes on a provincial level, three provinces‘ contact
crimes decreased in the last financial year: Those provinces being
the Free State, Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal.
However, the remaining six provinces recorded increases from 6,4% in
Limpopo and 3,3% in Gauteng to the lowest increase of 0,4% in the
North West province. Gauteng remains the highest crime contributor,
followed by the Western Cape.

IsiXhosa:
Isizathu sokuba iNtshona Koloni ihlale ikweli zinga lokophula
umthetho kungokuba...

English:
... the Western Cape doesn‘t want to have single policy. Instead of
increasing the metro police who will help to fight crime, they don‘t
expand ...

IsiXhosa:
... abafuni ukuqesha amapolisa. Into abafuna ukuyenza kukuzenza
iphondo elikwelinye ilizwe.


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English:
They increase the number of Law Enforcement Officers instead.
Chairperson, police service account for R87 billion over the medium
term. The SA Police Service will intensify its implementation of the
Back to Basics strategy to improve police performance and conduct. A
total of R2,5 billion will be allocated to the department to upgrade
and maintain police stations with a further R10 billion to procure
and maintain transport equipment.

IsiXhosa:
Nicinga ukuba aza kusebenza njani amapolisa xa ningawaniki imali?
Ndiqinisekile ukuba i-DA litshaba lamapolisa eMzantsi Afrika.
Abawafuni la mapolisa akhoyo apha eMzantsi Afrika. [Kwaphela
ixesha.]

English:
I support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber?

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order: The speaker cannot
address the DA; they must address the Chairperson, please!


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The point of order is
sustained.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP continues with the appeal to
have our government recognise that people in rural areas and in the
townships of our country also deserve to be protected. During the
apartheid era, police stations were built in remote areas of our
country. They were built for a chosen few. This trend seems to have
continued even after 1994 because in the rural provinces especially,
police stations are still located in those remote areas. I have
raised this matter before and the ex-Minister of Police made a
determination that he was going to look at the issue of Umsinsini
Police Station particularly.

Secondly, the equitable distribution of resource currently is also
not in favour of the rural areas. Even at the present moment, when
you go to the cities and towns of this country, the police stations
there are well resourced: They have got good vehicles; they have got
enough staff personnel; and they have got all the equipment you
need. However, when you go to the rural and township police stations
of our country, the trend of not resourcing those police stations
adequately has continued. So, we appeal as the IFP to the Department
of Police to adequately resource the township and rural police


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stations of our country. Thank you, Chairperson [Siyathokoza,
Sihlalo].

Voting.

Division demanded.
The Council divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put:

Declarations of vote:
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, this department is crucially underfunded
and cannot deliver on its mandate. It is clearly the ANC‘s unwanted
stepchild. It continues failing to deliver on outcomes 7 and fails
to self correct in its approach. The component of Fisheries in the
department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is an absolute
mess and should be decentralised to become provincial competencies.
It fails to sustain productive use of transferred land also due to


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underfunding. Continuous misuse of underfunding and lack of
accountability by provincial departments for the benefit of a few
ANC tenderpreneurs like I showed within my debate as well of the
R1,48 million fence for one kilometre.

As part of the bloated Cabinet, this department should not be a
stand alone department. We, as a DA thus cannot support this budget
of job killing failures.

Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:
AYES - 33: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
Gaehler, L B; Khawula M; Makue, E R; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M;
Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D;
Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J
M; Ncitha, Z V; Ndamase, M; Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M;
Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B T; Siwela, V
S; Skhosana ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L;


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NOES - 16: Chabangu, M M; Engelbrecht, B; Faber, W F; Gersbach G;
Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Koni, N P; Magwebu, L
V;Mathevula,B T; Mokwele,T J; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Ngwenya, D B;
Pittaway, M; Smit C F B; Terblanche,O S.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chair, I have been doing this job since morning.
Can I now hand over to hon Chabangu?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it is not your
responsibility to do that.

Mr M KHAWULA: No, I am handing over to Chabangu.

Vote No 25 – Economic Development – put.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I have noted since last week that members are
coming in from the front and you know is not ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am sustaining the point of
order. You are in order. [Interjections.] But when the bells are


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ringing it means we are not ... No, but I have sustain your point of
order. No, it‘s correct for them to know that they can‘t just pass
in front. You are making a valid point, hon Julius. Can we have the
doors closed? Any objections?

Ms C Labuschagne: Decline and divide.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection and the
division of the DA.

Ms T J MOKWELE: EFF object with declaration.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
EFF and are going to do the declaration. Let‘s have the declaration
from the DA. No, sorry, you are saying there is no declaration.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Declaration and decline. We decline. We said so.
Object, decline and divide. May I proceed, Chair? [Interjections.]
Thank you.

Declarations of vote:
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chairperson, unemployment rate under the ANC has
increased to 27,7% in the first quarter of 2017 from 26,5%. This is


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the highest unemployment rate since 2004, that‘s eight years ago,
and this has been cost by the ANC because the ANC cannot govern.

Hon members, fellow South Africans, South Africa economy has
officially entered a recession. After the first quarter saw economic
output contract by 0,7% after contracting by 0,3% in the fourth
quarter and consumer spending and manufacturing industries shrank.
Further, the trade catering and accommodation industries have
suffered immensely under the ANC.

Again, hon members, this is another failure of the ANC-led
government. The last time South Africa was in recession was in 2009.
Recently, South Africa was downgraded to junk status by reputable
credit rating agencies. Over the last 35 years, these agencies have
downgraded 20 countries to junk status with only six countries ever
been able to regain their investment status. Again, this is another
ANC failure. Recently, thousands of emails about state capture,
corruption and looting of public funds by ANC leaders have been
leaked exposing that which we already knew that the Presidency and
South Africa leaders of the ANC are indeed captured then were is
economic development?


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The only economic development the ANC can claim is the economic
development of the Guptas and the corrupt bunch of the ANC leaders.
I would not mention them by name because I don‘t have the time. But
recently, R70 million of VAT was irregularly paid by SA Revenue
Service, Sars, to private owned companies. These companies are owned
by whom? Guess what, by the Guptas again. That is the only economic
development that the ANC is busy doing when our people are sitting
at home as we speak, as we are sitting here unemployed and there are
no chances and there is no hope for them. This is something that the
DA takes to heart and something we will correct. We will make sure
in 2019 when we take over. Those criminals that are masquerading as
leaders, must I say, they will be brought to book, they will be
prosecuted. We will be here to prosecute them. Having said all of
that, the DA in the circumstances cannot support this budget.

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, the EFF reject and does not agree
with the budget for the Department of Economic Development. Firstly,
we reject the budget because it‘s based on the neoliberal DA and ANC
back National Development Plan. We cannot continue allow
multinational and Bretton Woods Institutions to determine our
economic destiny.


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Secondly, the department is meant to align all economic policies
programmes and action of the various government departments. It
cannot do this because it is not in control of monetary policies.
This is the fall of the Reserve Bank, which is not providing the
necessary monetary policies to make economic development viable
reality.

Industrial policy‘s is primary coordinated by the department of
Trade and Industry, DTI, which does not properly account to the
Department of Economic Development. Development finance institution
are not under control of the department, including the National
Empowerment Fund, Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, Public
Investment Cooperation, PIC, National Youth Development Agency,
NYDA, and all of which could not be used to help stimulate and
coordinate industrial development.

The Competition Commission, which is one of the few institutions
which fall under the department, is useless. Companies do what they
want and simply paid the fines and continue to make profits, like
the bread and the construction industry. What is needed in a
national industry philosophy, you cannot manage an economy that you
did not create and were designed to exploit our people.


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If you want to change who the economy benefits and include, you must
change the structure and ownership of the economy. If you want to
develop our economy, certain fundamental step must be taken.
Firstly, the nationalisation of our minerals and under strategic
sector of the economy. Secondly, the protection and the promotion of
local industries through localisation and beneficiation. Thirdly,
nationalisation of all development research patterns for public in
universities while also increase funding to these universities,
opening our economy to new opportunities, technologies and industry.
Fourthly, offer free decolonise education which will produce the
necessary skills required to develop and diversity the economy
making it more self insufficient. Increase trade in goods and
service of all culture between African countries. These steps
characterise the way in which the EFF will ensure economic
development and role. All approaches to economic development outside
of this approach have been tested and are proven to fail. We
therefore reject this budget. You must listen.

Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members.


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Mr M RAYI: ... the Economic Development Department derive its
mandate to create jobs and transform South Africa economic from the
ANC Election Manifesto 2009 and 2014. In 2009, we set ourselves
three targets to risk by the end of the second decade of freedom,
including halving the levels of poverty and unemployment by 2014.

The ANC commitment to ensure that government together with labour
business and other sectors work together to develop practical
solution that will ensure that South Africa‘s economy prospect is
improve and that job losses were avoided or minimise.

The creation of descent work and sustainable livelihood will be
central to the ANC government‘s agenda. In 2014, the ANC pledge to
invest in infrastructure that unlocks economic opportunities and
create jobs committed to building an inclusive economy that draws
from the skills of all South Africans affirms our people and reduce
incoming quality as we undue the legacy of discrimination at work on
the grounds of race, gender and disabilities.

According to the Medium Term Strategy, MTS, government programme of
radical economic transformation is about placing the economy on a
qualitative different path that ensures more rapid sustainable


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growth, higher investment, increase employment, reduce inequality
and derationalise economy.

The National Development Plan, NDP, serves an annual role target of
about 5% by 2030 and emphasises measures to ensure that the benefits
of growth are equally distributed.

The employment as at the end of 2015 financial year, to hon Magwebu,
was 15 675 000 and as at the end of 2016-17 financial year was
16 202 000. So, if you can go back to those figures, with regard to
economic transformation, the Economic Development Department
contribute towards unblocking of project and investment by
coordinating infrastructure development for inclusive growth service
delivery, job creation, industrialisation, social inclusion, it
provides secretariat and technical support to the Presidential
Infrastructure Coordinating Commission. It also promotes
competition; trade and other economic regulation in support of job
creation, inclusive growth, industrialisation and social inclusion.

Government is tackling cartels and prise fixing in a number of
product market. [Time expired.]

Division demanded.


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The Council divided.

AYES - 34: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
Dube-Ncube, N; Gaehler, L B; Khawula M; Khumalo S; Lasindwa, L;
Mahlakeng, M; Makue, E R; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E;
Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D; Mohai, S J;
Moshodi, M L; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J M; Ncitha, Z
V; Ndamase, M; Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J
P; Prins, 0E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B T; Siwela,
V S; Skhosana ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.
NOES - 14: Chabangu, M M; Chetty, M; Engelbrecht, B; Faber, W F;
Gersbach G; Hattingh, C; Julius, J W W; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J;
Koni, N P; Magwebu, L V;Mathevula,B T; Michalakis, G; Mokwele,T J;
Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Ngwenya, D B; Pittaway, M; Smit C F B;
Terblanche,O S.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 26 – Energy – put:
Division demanded.

The Council divided:


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AYES - 33: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
Makue, E R; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga M T;
Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D; Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L;
Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J M; Ncitha, Z V; Ndamase, M;
Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J P; Prins, E;
Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B T; Siwela, V S; Skhosana
ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 12: Chabangu, M M; Gaehler, L B; Hattingh, C; Labuschagne, C;
Koni, N P; Magwebu, L V;Mathevula,B T; Mokwele,T J; MpamboSibhukwana,T G; Ngwenya, D B; Smit C F B; Terblanche,O S.

ABSTAIN – 1: Khawula, M.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and
the Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).

Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – put:

Division demanded.

The Council divided:


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AYES - 34: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
Khawula M; Makue, E R; Mampuru,T K; Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E;
Mhlanga, M T; Mlambo, E M; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D; Mohai, S J;
Moshodi, M L; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J M; Ncitha, Z
V; Ndamase, M; Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M; Parkies, J
P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B T; Siwela,
V S; Skhosana ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L; Zwane L L.

NOES - 13: Chabangu, M M; Chetty, M; Hattingh, C; Labuschagne, C;
Koni, N P; Magwebu, L V;Mathevula,B T; Mokwele,T J; MpamboSibhukwana,T G; Ngwenya, D B; Pittaway, M; Smit C F B; Terblanche,O
S.

ABSTAIN – 1: Gaehler, L B

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Is it
parliamentary for a member to vote whilst standing at the passage?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is not in order.


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Mr M KHAWULA: Then, there is an objection here. The member is voting
while standing at the passage.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it cannot happen. A
member must be sitted when we are voting.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 28: - Labour – put.

Declarations of vote:
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Labour has only
40 occupational health and safety inspectors for the whole country
and this is the crisis caused by the ANC. They have not been
employing the occupational health inspectors, and guess what? They
have paid themselves R13 million on performance bonuses yet they
cannot employ the staff needed. This is a serious problem because
recently, in Gauteng, forensic pathology assistant went on strike on


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the basis of their working conditions that were not conducive
because the Department of Labour cannot send the inspectors. Why? It
is because they do not have them, but the money is there. The money
is being used to pay performance bonuses. This is the type of a
government – you know; - led by the ANC that is looting the public
funds – self serving, self enriching and unduly enriching
themselves.

The Auditor-General made the following findings on the performance
information of the Department of Labour. On inspections and
enforcements services, ... [Interjections.] ... unable to obtain
sufficient evidence. On public employment, the Auditor-General made
the following finding that the department failed to achieved its
planned targets by 22%. On labour policy and industrial relations,
information was not verifiable and 23% of targets were not specified
as required by the framework for managing programme performance
information. In March 2017 the National Health Education & Allied
Workers Union, Nehawu, warned the department that these strikes will
come; again the department could not listen because the ANC does
exactly that. It never listens to the people and has put us in a
mess we are today. With these reasons, we will not and cannot
support this budget today. I thank you.


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Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson, the ANC support Budget Vote 28. Hon
Magwebu, through you Chairperson, it supports it because if you
compare, to compare before 1994 what was the situation with regard
to workers. Workers commended the labour legislation as the best in
the world. The department has a budget of R3,065 billion to allocate
to four programmes, namely, administration; inspection and
enforcement services; public employment services; labour market
policy and industrial relations. Though this budget has declined in
real terms, will also be responsible for the necessary amendments to
the Labour Relations Act, Act 66 of 1995 and the Basic Conditions of
Employment Act, Act 75 of 1997, in order to provide the legislative
framework for the implementation of the national minimum wage
agreement in 2018.

Effective supply chain management has been dealt with. For example,
there are cases that have been referred either to disciplinary
processes or to the South African Police Services, SAPS. A total of
13 cases amounting to an amount of R29 477 for irregular expenditure
were detected and reported for the 2015-2016 financial year and
disciplinary cases are being pursuit.

With regard to inspection and enforcement services, 187 497
inspection were performed and 98% of the 36 441 cases on non


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employment have been issued with notices. Eighty two percent, that
means 1 080 of 1 309 incidences were investigated and finalised
within prescribed time frames. This is done to give effect to the
right of fair labour practices by the regulation of Employment Law.
Hon Magwebu, through you Chairperson, 217 008 inspections are
planned for the financial year 2017-2018.

On employment equity we say the DA is not implementing in the
Western Cape. One thousand eight hundred and twelve work places will
be inspected. Also, with regard to the procedural aspects of the
Employment Equity 5 592 work places will be inspected. With regard
to Basic Conditions of Employment Act ... [Interjections.] [Time
expired.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 29 – Mineral Resources – put.


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Declarations of vote:
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, last week, in the budget debate of this
department, I said that the first thing Minister Zwane will be
remembered for is the Mining Charter. It is now clear that he will
definitely be remembered for the fact that, after the releasing of
the Mining Charter, mining shares were slashed with R50 billion over
night. The industry retaliated as well. Minister Zwane was chased
away by an angry crowd from an Mpumalanga mining indaba on Friday.

Mining is one of the most important contributions to the GDP of our
country. Unfortunately, this government is now synonymous with
policies and legislation that, more than often, transpire that the
ANC does not care about the people, especially the poor and the
vulnerable.

The President endorsed the Mining Charter in the national Parliament
last week. The ANC, as a party, quickly distanced themselves from
the Charter. However, the President is the President of the country
and the ANC – a perfect example that President Jacob Zuma is
captured by his Gupta friends and only cares about himself and his
own pocket.


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Furthermore, the ANC, as a party, is also captured by the Zuptas. In
spite of the outcry all over against state capture, the Guptas‘
involved and distancing themselves from some issues, the ANC still
keep Jacob Zuma as President of this country. All they are focussing
on now is to reunite, to try and stay in power in 2019.

How can South Africans trust the ANC to correct the history of 20
years of power-hunger, corrupt and political unwillingness to spend
budgets in a way that it shows care and compassion for the people of
this country? The DA does not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, a trade union organiser, Solly Sachs,
made a remarkable observation in 1952 that the future of the people
and the whole country depends on the extensive and intensive
industrial development. He continues to say that the mining of
precious minerals could serve the interests of the country only as
stimulus for the development of other branches of the national
economy.

How do we ensure that all people of South Africa indeed benefit from
mineral resources? As the EFF, we are here to provide practical
clarification on six key, vital components to ensure that all


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mineral wealth is used for the benefit of the people, development
and growth of the South African economy.

Firstly, mineral and petroleum resources must not only be owned by
the state, but it must be thoroughly democratic, and controlled by
the people. By this, we mean people must participate as workers, as
managers and must also be involved in decision-making regarding
everything in mining.

Secondly, the process of democratising ownership beyond state
ownership must also be accompanied by the transformation of stateowned enterprises in order to be much more democratic, from board
members to cleaners.

Thirdly, mineral resources in the hands of the people of South
Africa should help build the strategic capacity of the state, to
unlock resources for development and growth paths that would focus
on building industries. We will then move away from heavy reliance
on and appropriation of primary commodities and importation of
everything we buy and consume in local shelves.


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Fourthly, given that the state is the custodian of mineral
resources, the state must have management control over operating
mines in South Africa, to account for production output.

Fifthly, no mining company operating in South Africa today has made
more capital investment than the benefit they have enjoyed,
including, undue looting, through illicit financial flow. Therefore,
no mining company can make a case for compensation when we
expropriate without compensation.

Lastly, unlike the ANC government that agreed to pay apartheid debt
when taking over government in 1993 that is now paid by millions of
South Africans, while it benefitted only a few white people, only
people who are owned by ... [Inaudible.] ... government must not
accept to be paid by the state, but they must go to companies that
owe them.

We know that the ANC government has lost legitimacy and is not in a
position to implement such a complex programme to take forward the
mining sector and the economy of our country.


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It is for this reason that the EFF objects to the Mineral Resources
Budget Vote and limited state resources in failing corrupt and
untransformed sector. Thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chair, there is too much ―Guptarising‖ of South Africa
in this department. I just want to set the record straight. When the
Minister was here, he made a statement that the IFP can confirm that
they are working with all parties. Last year, during the debate on
this department, I raised an issue with the Minister that there is
sand mining that is taking place in the Mzumbe River and the people
there are coming from outside to mine and take that sand out of the
Mzumbe River, from the people of Mzumbe to distribute it elsewhere.
That is not the issue. The issue is that it is people from outside
and the local people are not benefitting. There was a problem when
these people blockaded the roads because of this issue.
The Minister then came to address that.

This is happening in the Mzumbe River, in the Tralume River, in
Ilovu, and Umzinyathi eMaqadini. The Minister came, but until today,
the issue has not been resolved. He just came, spoke to the people
and passed by and nothing else happened. This is still going on.
Thank you.
Mr A S SINGH


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Mr A S SINGH: House Chair, the people of South Africa have declared
that the people shall share in the country‘s wealth and the mineral
wealth beneath the soil, and that it shall be transferred to the
ownership of the people as a whole. The African National Congress
supports the Mineral Resources Budget Vote that promotes and
regulates the minerals and the mineral sector for transformation,
growth and development, and ensures that all South Africans derive
sustainable benefits from the country‘s mineral wealth.

As this is a policy budget debate, as the ANC, we need to say that
the key strategic policy priority of this Vote, as prioritised in
the 2017 state of the national address, is to finalise changes in
the registration and regulations for minerals and petroleum that
have been work in progress since 2010.

In addition, the department has to implement the policy of
transformation in the mining sector. Of course, we are aware that
the there will be the case where there are substantive vast
interest, but we need to all understand and appreciate that what the
ANC is building is a future national democratic society where
democracy is shared and enjoyed through the participation of the
masses of our people. We are building a future that is a nonracial


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in character and that is enjoyed, especially in terms of this Budget
Vote, by the majority who resides within its borders.

The Budget Vote contributes towards promoting equality and access to
the nation‘s mineral and petroleum wealth. The Vote seeks to advance
the provisions of the Mining Charter to ensure that the mining
sector complies, and benefits the communities in which they are
operating.

The resources allocated through the Budget Vote will enable the
department to advance its mandate and strategic plan, which seeks to
transform the mining sector. The transformation of this mining
sector is intended to grow an inclusive economy to further open up
opportunities for small and medium enterprises.

Transforming the mining sector meaningfully and sustainably
continues to be the ANC‘s focus. The revised charter has to respond
adequately to the National Development Plan, the intention of the
Nine-point Plan of the 2017 state of the nation address. Anything
less will not be transformation. The ANC supports this Budget Vote.


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Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance,
Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party and the African
National Congress.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

TAKE IN FROM MINUTES

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 30 — Science and Technology — put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The bells are ringing. Let‘s
be seated members. Is there any objection? No? We are dealing with
Vote 30.

Ms B T MATHEVULA: The EFF objects.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
EFF. Then it‘s agreed to.


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Setswana:
Mme N P KONI: Modulasetulo, waitse ekare o itirela jaaka o kgona ka
gore metsotso e meraro ga ese e fete. Re kopa go go gopotsa gore re
tlile fa go tla go bereka. Kana nna ke lebeletse nako. Ke kopa gore
fa ele gore nako ya gago ga e go berekele sentle, e nna e tsamaya ka
bonako, ke go adime tshupanako yaka o e beye moo. Ka kopo
Modulasetulo. Ke kopa gore o tlogele go dira jalo, re tlile go
bereka mo. Le fa re ka tswa ka ura ya bosomepedi go ntse go siame.
Tlogela go itirela nako ya gago mo o nnetseng teng moo, tsweetswee.

Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 31 — Small Business Development — put.

English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I now put Vote No 31. Let the
bells ring. The good thing is that I‘m not controlling the bells.
There‘s no button here. They are controlling it on that side. The
bells are ringing. Hon members, as we have these three minutes,
those who want to go to the loo can use that time. We are not going
to be breaking so that we are able to finish in time. So you can use
the three minutes just to get out, get ... and come in.


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Mr M KHAWULA: Chair, on behalf of all the caucuses and with the
support of hon Motlashuping, I want to formerly move for a tea
break. [Interjections.] The body has a limit to the strain that it
can take on a day. So I‘m formerly proposing that we have a tea
break.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, can you close the
door. The good thing about the NCOP is that we have the Chief Whip
of the institution. So anything that you want to communicate you can
do it via the Chief Whip? Is there any objection? We are dealing
with Vote No 31. The DA?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... [Inaudible] ... divides.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection and the
division called by the DA. The EFF?

Ms T J MOKWELE: The EFF objects.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.


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[VOTING TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Vote No 32 — Telecommunications and Postal Services – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The bells are ringing. Hon
members, can you be seated? Is there any objection? The DA? Hon
Labuschagne?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Is this Vote No 32?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, we are dealing with Vote
No 32.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The DA objects.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Are you agreeing?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The DA objects.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Oh, we note the objection of
the DA. The EFF?

Ms T J MOKWELE: The EFF objects.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
EFF.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Vote No 33 — Tourism — put.

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... {Inaudible.] ... because everybody is wearing
people. The Chairperson of the House, the House Chair and the Chief
Whip are in purple. Maybe there‘s an occasion of purpling somewhere
... [Interjections.] ... and everybody is purpling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Even the people ... Hon
Mokwele, the colour purple is even in your attire. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: We are the only ones that are objecting.


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Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Trade and Industry – Put.

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom
Fighters and the African National Congress.

Declarations of vote:
Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, early in January this year, the
president of the EFF and incoming president of South Africa,
commander-in-chief, CIC, Julius Malema, [Interjections.] wrote a
letter to the Minister regarding the dying poultry industry.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! [Interjections.]
Sorry, sorry, hon Chabangu, sorry. Hon members, no, [Interjections.]
hon members, let us not spoil it. There is nothing wrong to heckling
him but let us not drown him. Let us allow him to be heard. Sorry
hon Chabangu, hon Khawula, why are you standing?

Mr M KHAWULA: House Chair, on a point of order: Can you allow the
member to start from the beginning once more because they were
making noise and we could hardly hear what he was saying.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, can you take
your seat.

Mr M M CHABANGU: And in that letter the EFF called on the Minister
to take the following steps to prevent a complete collapse of the
poultry industry, listening is a skill. We called on you and
government to treat the situation with the seriousness it deserves.
Seek financial relief to prevent job losses and also impose a 50%
tariff on all imported chickens. We further call on you Minister and
government to work with National Treasury to instruct government
from national, provincial, municipalities to state-owned entities to
only buy local chickens.

But because the ANC government is not decisive and had outsourced
the function of managing the macroeconomic policy to local and
foreign capital, all we will see is endless meetings and by the time
decisions are made we will not have a poultry industry to speak of.
While developed countries like the United States, US, highly
protects and subsidises their agricultural sector, our agriculture
sector is gradually dying its actual death. Our people are sitting
with empty plates and going to bed with empty stomachs. It is a well
established fact that all countries that have become industrialised
without exception have passed through a phase where they have


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supported and protected emerging industries. But the Minister and
the ANC government are failing to appreciate and implement this
simple logic. Instead of pleading with foreign capital like General
Motors when they decide to disinvest, this must be an opportunity to
grow local industries. It is an opportunity to beneficiate our
mineral resources locally. It is an opportunity for local industries
to grow and create sustainable jobs. Jobs that pay decent wages,
jobs that will put food on the table, jobs that will put roofs over
the heads of families and jobs that will restore dignity to our
black people not Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, work.

Instead, in South Africa we have new malls opening every weekend.
Because of this said really terribly ... [Time expired.] The EFF
therefore rejects this budget. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon ... yeah it is fine.

Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, the ANC in humility and in service of
our people declares our support for the Department of Trade and
Industry budget. Invoking the free spirit of Frantz Fanon, I quote
his wise words:


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Colonialism hardly ever exploits the whole of a country. It
contents itself with bringing to light the natural resources,
which it extracts, and exports to meet the needs of the mother
country's industries, thereby allowing certain sectors of the
colony to become relatively rich. But the rest of the colony
follows its path of underdevelopment and poverty, or at all
events, sinks more deeply into it.

Therefore, this ANC, when we launched our election manifesto last
year, stated our recognition of the struggles of those in the antiapartheid movement internationally and how those struggles inspired
us. And then we then said also, our world is increasingly ...
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry! Sorry, hon Makue, let
me take the point of order.

Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chairperson, I have a point of order. Is it
parliamentary to come with our political material into the House and
display them in the House? Is it parliamentary? I just want to know
so that we can also come with our founding manifesto, our coming
revolution and our other material and documents into the House.


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[Interjections.] Material with the emblem, with a logo of a
political party, is it parliamentary?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! Hon members! Hon
members, you know very well, all of you, the rules and you know what
we must do to sustain and maintain the decorum of the House.
[Interjections.] I am appealing to all of us not to display anything
that will show the colours of our parties. [Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: What are they wearing?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair! Chair! Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I am very
specific. I am referring to an emblem, not colour. I am referring to
an emblem. [Interjections.] I have addressed your point order.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I want you not to be biased my Chair because it is a
member of the ANC who came with the material of the ANC into the
House, do not be general, just address a particular member to be in
order, do not generalise us. We are wearing our political party
colours but we do not resemble our logos. If it is how you must run


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the House, we will do the same. You must call him to order. You must
call him to order, do not generalise us.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, allow me to make a
ruling.

Ms T J MOKWELE: You made a ruling already.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you allow me to make a
... [Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: Chairperson, you have made a ruling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me repeat
what I have said or let me assist. [Interjections.] Hon members, you
are making ... I want to make a ruling but you are making noise. Hon
members, I have made a ruling, I will stick with my ruling. The
ruling is that we must refrain from anything that will create
problems because tomorrow you will find a member that will get in
the House reading something and it will create a ruling that will
never be sustained. [Interjections.] So that is why I am saying, if
ever you are not satisfied with the ruling then there is a procedure


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that must be followed in dealing with a ruling that you are not
satisfied with.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Today I want to work, like I have been doing all
along and I do not want you to think that I am degenerating the
House somehow but I am appealing to you Chair, with due respect. You
do not have to generalise this matter. We do not have to take other
steps to address this matter. It is a simple matter. Hon Makue came
with a document of the ANC in the House. All you have to do is to
tell him, not us. That is why we were looking for your indulgence
Chair, tell hon Makue asseblief [please] and you must caution the
ANC people. They must go and deal their policy at their policy
conference, not here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Makue! Do not display any
emblem that will be showing a party ... [Interjections.] I am
dealing with hon Makue. Let us allow hon Makue to continue, can you
continue. Can you continue hon Makue. [Interjections.] No, I have
made a ruling. Can you allow hon Makue to continue? Okay, hon
member?

Ms P BOSHIELO (SPEAKER: Limpopo Legislature): Chair, I have a point
of order. In terms of the Rule, if the Presiding Officer is


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responding, we must all listen to that Presiding Officer and if the
Presiding Officer has taken a decision, we must all abide to it.
There are procedures on what to do if you are appealing to the
Rules.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Mokwele, take your seat, you
are not recognised. Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, take your seat.

Mr E MAKUE: The Department of Trade and Industry is one of our
departments that are excelling in terms of the services that it
offers and the ANC is the governing party that makes sure that the
policies that we have presented to our people through our election
manifesto and those same policies through which the people have
elected us to be the ruler in this Parliament is indeed a promise
that we keep to our people. We do not just make promises

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Makue, let me deal with
hon Koni, why are you standing?

Ms N P KONI: Chairperson, on a point of order: Hon Makue ...

Setswana:
... A seke a tla mo go tla go ...


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English:
... justify his wrong doing.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are out of order. Can you
take your seat?

Setswana:
Mme N P KONI Re a itse gore go nale khonferense ya pholisi go tloga
ka Labotlhano ... [Tsenoganong.]

English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you are out of order,
take your seat. Can you take your seat? [Interjections.] Switch the
microphone off. Take your seat.

Mr E MAKUE: The Department of Trade and Industry is in it for the
long haul. Minister Davies recently stated that our engagement in
trade and industry is a marathon and we are ready for that marathon.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am worried, hon
Makue was not respecting your ruling. He has distinctively displayed
that ANC emblem there ... [Interjections.] He does not respect ...


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[Interjections.] Get the bouncers to kick him out. The bouncers must
kick him out please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No! Hon Makue, your time is
up. [Applause.] Hayi! [No!]

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 35 — Transport — put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, please be
seated. Is there any objection? We are dealing with Vote No 35
Transport. Hon Michalakis?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Object, declare and divide.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Come again? [Interjections.]
Okay. We note the objection of the DA, and there‘s going to be a
declaration and they have called for a division. The EFF?

Ms N P KONI: The EFF objects.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
EFF. Let‘s get to the declaration of the DA. Hon Faber?

Declaration(s) of vote:
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, post-midnight reshuffle; the midnight
shuffle as we have come to know it. President Zuma left us with more
questions than answers as to why he replaced the former Minister of
Transport Dipuo Peters with Joe Maswanganyi. Crisis after crisis has
hit this department, including scandals of fraud and corruption. We
have got used to that now. The zupta saga with President Zuma and
the Gupta-connected companies with the Passenger Rail Agency of SA,
Prasa, is the latest, with a R5,3 billion reportedly bagged by the
Guptas in kickbacks. You need to stop covering up and protecting
those involved.

Prasa is now being investigated by Treasury, the Public Protector,
the Special Investigating Unit and the Hawks, among others. Even


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this department‘s director-general has been suspended since last
year on full pay ... that is not functioning properly.

Lastly, with regard to our roads, road safety remains a huge concern
as we look at road fatality accident statistics with no real
strategy to resolve it to this date. The SA National Roads Agency
Limited, Sanral, continues to ignore Gauteng motorists‘ option on etolls after not complying with the SA National Roads Agency Limited
and National Roads Act and the Promotion of Administrative Justice
Act.

Now, with all these and many more issues, the DA can certainly not
support this budget. I thank you.

Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, the ANC believes in a public transport
system that is safe, reliable and affordable, and this is one of the
competencies of the national Department of Transport.

In their annual performance plan and budget presented to our Select
Committee on Economic and Business Development, we are convinced
that the national Department of Transport endeavours to do its best
in reducing the loss of life on our roads. Because we care about
people‘s lives we have no choice but to support this budget.


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Safe and reliable rail, airline and maritime transport offers a
better life as well as serving as a trigger for inclusive economic
growth as game changers in the ANC‘s commitment to radical economic
transformation. Transport facilities and infrastructure that
facilitates the speedy delivery of goods and services is a priority
in the budget of the national Department of Transport. The logistics
sector drives economic growth in line with the National Development
Plan, and has been considered and accommodated in the national
Department of Transport‘s performance plan and budget for 2017-18.

The national Department of Transport, and in particular the maritime
industry, performs a pivotal role and demonstrates innovation in
government‘s Operation Phakisa.

Due to the broad spectrum of achievements that are already being
implemented by the national Department of Transport, we in the ANC
are proudly supporting this budget. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

[VOTING TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]


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Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters
dissenting).

Vote 36 - Water and Sanitation – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, please be
seated. We are dealing with Vote 36, any objection?

Ms T J MOKWELE: EFF objects with declaration.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The DA objects, declare and divide.

Declarations of Votes:

Ms N P KONI (EFF): As with all these budget votes, we have on this
one tried to plead with the ANC to use available laws and bring
about significant reforms in water provision in this country. As
with all the arguments we make, the ANC has been deaf to our calls.
We have argued that the neglect of maintenance of water
infrastructure will make this country unworkable in future. Because
of the scarcity of this resource, the department under sis‘Nomvula
...


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Setswana:
... wa bonnananyana ...

English:
... has continued to prioritise the looting of the resources of this
department.

Instead of maintaining water infrastructure, we have continuously
asked the Minister, sis‘Nomvula ...

Setswana:
... wa bonnananyanaa ...

English:
... to work together with the Minister of Environmental Affairs and
the Minister of Agriculture to ensure that our fresh water,
ecosystems, wetlands and rivers ... [Interjection.]

Ms Z V NCITHA: House Chairperson, I hear hon Koni referring to hon
Monkonyana as sis‘Nomvula, I want to know from you, is it
parliamentary to do so?


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Chair, I‘m saying she‘s referring to her as sis‘Nomvula with a
different surname, yet she is Nomvula Monkonyana, honourable.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, take your seat.
Hon Koni, in terms of the Rules of the NCOP, we have to be referring
to hon members in an appropriate manner. Hon Koni, take your seat.
I‘m dealing with hon Koni, yes, I‘m dealing with Koni. Hon Koni, can
you continue and refer to the Minister in an appropriate manner.

Ms N P KONI: The member who called me to a useless order also did
not call the Minister‘s surname correctly so she must just keep
quiet.

We have pleaded with the department to ensure that they strengthen
their monitoring systems to ensure that working with the Department
of Environmental Affairs they deal thoroughly with the problem of
acid mine drainage, which threatens our underground water resources;
but yet again there has been no action on this part by the dep ...
[Interjection.]

Ms E PRINS: I want to and I would ... [Interjection.] ... please ask
her that I be addressed through the Chairperson and not be screamed
at from the other side of the House.


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But, on a point of order Chairperson, can you please ask the hon ...
[Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry hon member, sorry. Hon
members, hon Mokwele and hon Koni, I‘ve been consistently appealing
to both you. She‗s correct, you can‘t be dealing with her direct,
you have to speak to her through the Presiding Officer. Can you
continue hon member, you‘re protected.

Ms E PRINS: Yes Chair, I come back to my point of order. I would
request you Chair, please, that hon members address other hon
members in the hon manner that is supposed to be done. I thank you
Chair.

And I also implore on you Chair that I am not Wendy, I‘m hon Nelson.
I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Koni, I‘m saying it for
the third time, refer to members in an appropriate manner.

Ms N P KONI: ... never repeated. Since you‘ve called me to order
I‘ve never repeated. It means yourself; you‘re not listening sitting


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there. Clearly you‘re not listening, because I‘ve never called any
name.

Now you want us to approve your budget so you can continue looting
our state. No, hon Minister Mokonyane...

Setswana:
... wa bonnananyana, o jele madi e bile o a betšha ka madi a
bahumanegi.

English:
We reject this budget vote.

Setswana:
Mme Wendy, o sentse leina la Wendy jaanong ga o sa tlhole o le
batla?

English:
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, hon Koni speaks in Setswana and says:

Setswana:
O a betšha ka madi a rona.


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English:
It means that she‘s alleging that hon Minister is giving out the
money allocated to the department. In terms of Rule 53 of this
House, the member is protected to raise whatever that she wants to
raise, but Rule 46(b) prohibits a member to making false allegation
in the House. Can you rule on that? And the member must withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon ... no, I‘m sustaining
the point of order. Hon Koni, can you withdraw what you have said?

Ms T J MOKWELE: She withdrew, can you ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘m not recognising you
Mokwele, let the mic of hon Mokwele not be on. I‘m dealing with hon
Koni; I‘ll come to you once I‘m done.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Before you rule on the matter because I want to ...
[Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I don‘t need assistance, I
don‘t need assistance, I don‘t need assistance. Hon Koni, can you
withdraw?


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Ms N P KONI: What must I withdraw because ...

Setswana:
... ke buile ke re ...

English:
... let me repeat what I said. Hon Minister Mokonyane ...

Setswana:
... wa bonnananyana, o a betha ka madi a bahumanegi. E bile ga ke
ise ke tsamaye ke re a rona, ke rile a bahumanegi, o a betha. Go
betha ... ga ke itse gore ke Bapedi, Bapedi ba teng ba ka nna ba re
thusa foo. Fela go betha ke go betsa ka Setswana, wa betsa, go raya
gore wa taboga, o a dira. Ga ke ise ke tsamaye ke bue ka go betšha.
Ke kopa gore o ikamaganye le Hansard, ga ke tle go ...

English:
... withdraw, I will not withdraw anything that I did not say.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Koni, can you take your
seat so that I can deal with it. Hon Koni, because you‘re deciding
to play with words ... no, hon members, I don‘t need assistance. Can
you allow me to deal with that? Because you‘re deciding to play with


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words, what I‘ll do is that I‘ll go through Hansard and make a
proper ruling about it and it will be attended to accordingly. Then,
can you conclude?

No, hon Mokwele, you‘re not recognised. I‘m dealing with hon Koni.
Are you done? Thank you.

Setswana:
Moh T J MOKWELE: Go na le pegelo e e tswileng ya ...

English:
... Department of Water and Sanitation, alluding to the
mismanagement of funds by the department. So, it‘s not true that
whatever that hon Nthebe thinks hon Koni said it‘s misleading and
it‘s ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, you‘re out of
order because ... can you take your seat so that I can deal with it?
I‘m saying, the proper ruling will be made accordingly at a later
stage, so, that is not a point of order.

Let‘s get the declaration from IFP.


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IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ibambene! Ngike ngasho ukuthi awusidedele
siyophumula ...

English:
... now this is what you are getting for your resistance.
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is that your declaration?

Mr M KHAWULA: Yes, it is. It is. Chairperson, there is inconsistent
application of policy when it comes to the supply of water in South
Africa. We have recently come from, for example, Xariep District in
the Free State. Xariep District is not the water services authority
and the Kopanong Municipality is suffering because Bloem Water is
shutting water because Kopanong is failing to pay Bloem Water, yet
Xariep District is getting equitable share from Treasury, amongst
other things, to also provide free basic water to the people of that
district. But they are not doing it; they are not spending that
money where it is supposed to be spent. That is inconsistent has to
be addressed. Chairperson, the IFP is concerned that there is also
these water boards in South Africa that are not being considerate of
the plight of the people of South African. They just want to make


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money. They go out shutting water. People do not get water because
water boards want money from municipalities. When municipalities are
not paying, it is the people on the ground who suffers. All these
issues have to be addressed by this department.

It is just an appeal from the IFP.

IsiZulu:
Umntwana wasifundisa ukuthi abantu sibathande. Umntwana uyabathanda
abantu. Sikhulumela abantu ukuthi banikezwe amanzi. Abantu
mabangavalelwa amanzi ngenxa yezono okungezona ezabo. Laba
abaphethe, izono zabo azingacindezeli ukuphakelwa kwabantu amanzi.
Ngiyathokoza.

IsiXhosa:
Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Ndiyabulela Sihlalo weNdlu. Sihlalo
weNdlu...

English:
... we, as the Democratic Alliance oppose this budget for the water
and sanitation, Vote no 6 due to the following reasons: There is a
R3.5 billion shortfall on the 2017-18 financial year. The solution
the ANC government has to pay this balance out of the RBIG funds


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which is a conditional grant and is ring fenced cannot be allowed
because the Public Finance management Act would not even dream of
allowing this.

Additionally, Chairperson, exorbitant amounts of money are owed to
places like Bloem Waters hence the people in Xariep Dam are
desperate for water at this stage that is where we were on three
visits. I am not sure why the national government has not made it
their priority to insure the municipality to cover this deficit.

The strategic framework for water services that were proposed in
2006 suggested that bucket eradication programme, where its target
was completely the eradication of the bucket system would happen but
up until now.

IsiXhosa:
Themba mqala uza kuginya.

English:
However, this has not been done. Chairperson, this situation can
only be rescued by the DA competent-led government. The Department
of Water and Sanitation along with the water trading entity
currently, owe an amount of R5 million to the contractors of water


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boards. Where is the solution of how this will be paid back? South
Africa as a country cannot consistently remain in a vicious cycle of
debt year after year which this department allows. Furthermore, the
impact of the nation‘s downgrade to junk status ...

IsiXhosa:
... iyhoo zintloni...

English:
... has delayed the Lesotho Highlands Scheme even further and
further because of Minister Nomvula Mokonyane. The Makana District
in the Eastern Cape specifically around the Grahamstown area, we see
learners and students from Grahamstown Rhodes University suffering
and we have seen the municipality even rated-rated-rated to the
lowest degree.

Hon Chairperson, the bird ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ...
cannot even sustain the students who are studying at Rhodes. This
basic right of water is compromised to South Africans. :et it not be
supported. We the DA do not support.

Mr B G NTHEBE (ANC): Chair, the African National Congress rises to
support the budget. The restoration of our people‘s dignity and the


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respect for life is demonstrated through this budget. The silent
narrative in what the DA is saying is that issues of sanitation in
your local locations around Cape Town must not be resolved because
they are rejecting a budget. How do you resolve issues of sanitation
and issues of water provision if you reject the budget? It is simple
logic. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry, hon Nthebe, hon
members he is not doing a point of order, he is doing a declaration.
He is doing a declaration. You are protected hon Nthebe.

Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, before I conclude my three minutes I will
teach him that a point of order is not constituted by a difference
of opinion. Secondly, we want to agree, the IFP is raising an
important issue that if indeed ... [Interjections.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on a point of order, a declaration in
this House is not a debate where you refute another party. The
speaker on the floor is raising issues out of declarations of
previous members. That is not a declaration but a debate.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Nthebe, can you continue
with a declaration, we are doing declarations.


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Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, we want to agree that if indeed water is life,
we need to move into the decommodification of water as a basic
service. I think the IFP is raising an important point, but we want
to agree also that the silent narrative that we are beginning to get
into the rejectionist of this budget is seeking to plunge our
country into a chaos that our people must not have proper
sanitation, consistent and guaranteed provision of water. We
therefore as the ANC want to rise and support this budget.
[Applause.]

Chair, a point of order, when you have an issue, a different of
opinion does not constitute a point of order. Thank you so much.
[Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 35: Boshielo S P; De Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Dlamini, L C;
Gaehler, L B; Khawula M; Mahlakeng, M; Makue, E R; Mampuru,T K;
Manopole, G M; Mateme, H E; Mhlanga, M T; Modise, T R;Monakedi, M D;
Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L; Motara, T; Motlashuping, T C; Mthethwa,J
M; Ncitha, Z V; Ndamase, M; Nelson, W; Nthebe, B G; Nzimande, L P M;


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Parkies, J P; Prins, E; Rayi, M; Samka, P C; Singh, A S; Shongwe, B
T; Siwela, V S; Skhosana ka Mahlangu, S P D; Wana, T; Ximbi, D L;
Zwane L L.

NOES - 14: Chabangu, M M; Engelbrecht, B; Faber, W F; Julius, J W W;
Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Koni, N P; Magwebu, L V; Mathevula,B T;
Michalakis, G; Mokwele,T J; Mpambo-Sibhukwana,T G; Smit C F B;
Terblanche,O S.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Bells are ringing, hon
Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, the EFF rejects the budget

Declarations of Vote:
Sepedi:
Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, go ba ka mo gona re gona, mošomo
o swanetše o tšwele pele.


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English:
South Africa has a very rich diverse and dynamic heritage, our arts
and culture sector is one of the country‘s richest and most
important resources. It has the capacity to generate a significant
economic and social benefit for our nation. However, long years of
colonialism and apartheid have resulted in enormous neglect,
distortion and suppression of our rich cultural heritage.

For many years the apartheid regime used all efforts to stifle the
identity and creativity of people, our people were denied resources
and facilities to develop their own cultural expressions unless they
coincided with the aims of the colonial masters. Our cultural
heritage was made even more difficult by the absence of an effective
educational system that prevented our people from using their
creativity to support themselves and their families.

Our musicians, imbongis (praise singers) and all forms of creativity
by our people was made to be illegal and banned from public display
and development. After the demise of apartheid in 1994, as the ANC
we committed ourselves to promoting the arts and culture sector and
the rich heritage of our communities as part of our national efforts
to empower local economic development initiatives and build a caring
and cohesive society.


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We affirm the rich and diverse expressions of South African culture.
As the ANC we said all our people must be guaranteed the right to
practise their culture, language, beliefs and custom like I am
doing. We said our people must have the freedom of activity without
interference, and that our people must be guaranteed the freedom of
expression as one of the pillars of our democracy.

According to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, act
108 of 1996; everyone has a right to freedom of expression, which
includes the freedom of attach creativity and academic freedom and
freedom of scientific research. Persons belonging to a cultural,
religious, or linguistic community may not be denied the right to
enjoy their culture and to form, join and to maintain cultural
associations and other outlets of civil society.

Sepedi:
Modulasetulo, ka gore nako ke ye nnyane, e re ke bontšhe gore re
thabile kudu re le ba Limpopo ka gore tšhelete ye re e abetšwego ke
R121

ya dimillion, yeo e tla holago makgobapuku a rena kua Limpopo

– le senthara ya tshedimošo.

English:
Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


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Vote 38 – Human Settlements – put.

Ms N P KONI: Chair, the EFF objects.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, the DA objects.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Any objection we are dealing
with Rural Development and Land Reform? It‘s on Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Tebogo Mokwele.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, I am sorry for
saying Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yaa, thank you. Yes, the EFF objects with
declaration.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We note the objection of the
EFF, and there will be declaration from ANC as well.

Declarations of vote:
Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much, Chair. Land ownership in South
Africa has long been a source of conflict, our history of quest and
disposition of false removal and racial skewed distribution of land
resources has left us with complex and difficult legacy that
continues to divide our nation. Despite political freedom and
democracy land ownership and the development of rural areas in our
country continues to reflect the political and economic conditions
of the apartheid era.

The racial base land policies of the apartheid regime have robbed
our people the opportunity to own land. It orchestrated our people
in negligence and underdevelopment in rural and homeland areas. In
our 54th national congress as the ANC, we acknowledged that we need
to move with greater speed to ensure the delivery of land to our
people.

As the ANC we support the Department of Rural Development and Land
Reform budget vote because this department has a crucial mandate
which is to create and maintain equitable and sustainable land


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dispensation, and act as a catalyst in the rural development to
ensure sustainable rural livelihood, descent work and continue to
social and economic advancement for all South Africans.

It is in this regard that the department had to have a budget for
the following: Improve the land administration and spatial planning
for integrated development in rural areas; sustainable and land
reform fast-tracking land restitution; smallholder farming
development and support technical financial infrastructural for
agrarian and transformation and key programmes such as one house one
hectare; and one household two dairy cows; growth and sustainable
roam enterprise and industrial characterised by strong rural urban
linkages; trade development and access to market.

Through this department we continue to make greater strides in
addressing injustices of racial base land dispossession policy of
the apartheid regime. This department continue to serve as a
strategic arm for the redressing the inequality distribution of land
ownership. It is for this reason that the ANC adopt this budget.
Thank you.

Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon House Chair. This department has
become a vehicle for the Zuma ANC to capture all the land. It fails


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to transfer land to the poor and to hand them title deeds and full
ownership. It fails to deliver on section 25(5)(6) of the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. This department is
living on planet Zupta when we look at the 200+ years it will take
to finalise the new set of land claims which are on the table
currently.

It is wrongfully blaming the ANC‘s failures on the willing buyer
willing seller principle. If the ANC would stop wasting money and
staffing their own pockets it could have long reached its target of
30% transfer. It is also disingenuous to speculate on land ownership
shifts if there is no solid measurement in place as a proper land
audit is still in progress. In anyway this department has no
intention of transferring land to the people but rather to keep it
all for the state and for the elite who control the state.

Rural development is moving at a snail space as agriculture is
strangled and milked at the same time. There is still no policy
certainty and then there is unrealistic thumb suck land feelings
that will finally destroy agriculture sector and totally destabilise
our economy which is already fragile and in a dark place. This
department should not be a standalone department and thus we as the
DA will not support this land capture budget.


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Ms N P KONI: Thank you very much, Chairperson, we have on numerous
occasions tried to reason with the ANC on what constitutes a key
fundamental of our revolution, and on numerous occasions they have
refused to reason with us. We have on numerous occasions tried to
reason with the ANC that without the decisive break from their land
policies over the past 23 years, there would be no tangible legacy
that the future generations of South Africans can be proud of.

We have on numerous occasions pleaded with the African National
Criminals to work with us and together present a unified voice on
behalf of all landless black people ... [Interjections.]

Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, can we plead that you rule that hon Koni
withdraws African National Criminals.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Koni, can you withdraw
that part?

Ms N P KONI: It‘s a point of debate; I am not referring that to
anyone I am saying it on my own right and I am not saying this party
instead of this that should be and I have never said the ANC, the
―C‖ on the ANC represent the criminals. [Interjections.] No! I have


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never said that. That is a point of debate, hon Boingotlo must stop
obsessing with me, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No! Hon Koni, hon Koni, hon
Koni, you can‘t be debating with me. Can you withdraw?

Ms N P KONI: I withdraw the truth.

An HON MEMBER: The truth, the truth?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, the hon member, frankly has
not withdrawn. She is qualifying it and undermining the ruling that
you have made, I appeal that your ruling is final.

Ms T J MOKWELE: You love my voice wena.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat,

Ms T J MOKWELE: Haw, but Chair, I need to protect my member. I need
to protect my member.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yaa! I will deal with it. Can
you take you seat. No can you take your seat.


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Ms T J MOKWELE: And you must recognise me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I have made a ruling and I
live by the ruling. Hon Koni, continue. If hon Mohai is not happy
about how I ruled then he has a way of following the procedure.

Ms N P KONI: It is business, thank you, Chairperson. In memory of
the pain and suffering of those worrier men and women who laid down
their lives so we can gain freedom and take back our land from the
descendants of colonial thieves and rapists who came to this land
stole it. Let all freedom loving South Africans know today that the
ANC has refused to reason; they have refused all our offers to work
together and liberate black people.

They refused to take back the land and the land which gives life and
meaning; without land we are nothing. Ideologically and
implementation there is no difference between the ANC of today and
the NP. They all defend stolen land, and hon De Beer can attest to
that because the hon De Beer is a former member of the NP and today
he is the ANC member who was rewarded with the position of being the
Chairperson of the Finance Committee.


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Whites still have all the land and all the wealth. They are killing
and maiming black people in farms like in Coligny, not so long ago.
They are making money on the backs of poor black people, farmworkers
men and women. As the EFF, we reject this budget vote until the
criminals agrees to expropriating the land without compensation.

IsiZulu:
Mr M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, iqembu leNkatha liyacela ukuthi
amaqembu ezombusazwe angathathi udaba lomhlaba alenze indaba yepolitical game, agende ngalo amagende ngoba umhlaba enye yezinto
zokuqala ezazabalazelwa abanikazi bezwe. Izwe ngesikhathi lihamba
Sihlalo lalithathwa emakhosini ayevikele izwe nabantu bawo. Kwafa
abantu kuvikelwa izwe. Lahamba ke izwe lathathwa yilaba
abalithatha.[ Ubuwelewele.] Kodwa ke uma selibuya simile nje
emgomeni siyiqembu leNkatha ukuthi kubi ukuthi uma selibuyiswa izwe,
uma ubuyiswa umhlaba uhulumeni abese ewakhohlwa amakhosi
aseNdlunkulu. Ebese umhlaba wakhelwa amakomidi. Umhlaba wathathwa
Sihlalo izimpi ziliwa ziholwa ngamakhosi asendlunkulu. Kuzona zonke
loku okuyizifundazwe namhlanje la eNingizimu Afrika, ngamanye amazwi
kuzona zonke izingxenye zezwe laseningizimu Afrika, amakhosi kungaba
awamaSwazi, amaVenda, amaXhosa, amaZulu, amaPedi, abeTswana bonke
Sihlalo babe namakhosi ayehola umzabalazo wokuvikela izwe. Ngakho ke


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iqembu leNkatha licela ukuthi uhulumeni uma esenza izinhlelo zokuthi
kubuya izwe akangasale ngaphandle amakhosi aseNdlunkulu.

English:
We object strongly to this issue of trust because ...

IsiZulu:
... izwe alithathangwa ezandleni zama-trust. Lathathwa ezandleni
zamakhosi nabantu babo. Ngakho ke Sihlalo ayilungiswe le ndaba,
iqembu leNkatha liyacela. Ngiyathokoza.

IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Sihlalo, eli sebe lingengxaki enkulu ngakumbi kweli
cala lezobango lwemihlaba. Umzekelo, zintlanu iindawo phaya eMpuma
Koloni ezinamabango angekagqitywa nangoku. Eyokuqala yileyo yase
Sidbury ineminyaka engaphaya kwe-14 ingekagqitywa. Abantu baphaya
bathi befuna ukuthetha nam ndabathumela kohloniphekileyo uBawo
uPlatjies ukuba akhe athethe nabo. Ngamabango angama-54 asanikwa
ingwalasela nangoku kule minyaka eli-14. Lo gama kunikwa
ingqwalasela kule mihlaba nje kwelinye icala iyaphela. Kudala
sithetha ke -sisi ndicela ukhe ume mani, musa ukuphazama aphanoMphathiswa kunye nesebe. Amagosa anengxaki kwaye awathethisani


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abonisane kuba iSebe leZelimo lenza elayo into ukanti neSebe
lezamaPolisa nalo lenza elayo into kwelinye icala.

Okwesibini ngumba waKwaLindile, kunyaka ophelileyo abantu
bathenjiswa ukuba baza kuhlawulwa iimali zabo, ezo mali
abakazifumani nanamhlanje oku – nalapho umhlaba uyathathwa ngabantu
abangaziwayo. Eyesithathu, yeyakwaPayne, nalapho kukho ingxaki.
Uyabone ke kudala ndithetha naye uMphathiswa ngale ngxaki kuba
nabantu baza kude babulalane ngenxa yale ngxaki. Siyaluxhasa lona
uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kodwa ingxaki yona ikhona kwaye ifuna
ukulungiswa abantu bengakabulalani. Ncede uqande lo maqhel‘emafika
apha. Ndiyacela ke ngoko ukuba eli sebe lijonge iingxaki zabantu.
Enkosi.

Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put:

Declarations of vote:
Mr C HATTINGH: The purpose of the Sport and Recreation Vote is:

To transform the delivery of sport and recreation by ensuring
equitable access, development and excellence at all levels of
participation, thereby improving social cohesion, nation building
and the quality of life of all South Africans.


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Now, hon Chair, the reason Razzmatazz years saw nothing of this is
that, the sports arena should be a place of unity and compassion,
not one of division. The true essence of our rainbow nation should
be on display at every possible opportunity, not only at the
national level, but at all levels. Sport gives people hope, it
allows people to look up to role models, to believe in success
stories, in brighter futures and it is a place where we are all
equal and every single one of us can be a champion. This is a notion
that should be encouraged as far and wide as possible.

It is time that the sport budget reflects more accurately what on we
are saying and what we are trying to achieve. The budget needs to
align to specific long term goals in building better relationships
with sporting codes; ensuring sport infrastructure in schools and
communities. This budget alone will not achieve this. The Department
of Sports and Recreation, through its provincial counterparts,
should be ensuring that money ring-fenced for sports and recreation
is used for exactly that specific purpose.

In a DA-led South Africa we would ensure a better working
relationship between sport and education, education being crucial in
the development of sport and youth level. We would promote sports


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tourism in a responsible manner that builds jobs, creates careers
and grows tourism. For in a DA-governed country we won‘t divide or
talk on race; we will talk and deliver on growth and opportunities.
The DA does not support the Sport and Recreation Budget. I thank
you.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, the ANC rises in support of Budget Vote
No 40 on Sport and Recreation South Africa, given the historical and
the empirical evidence that sport plays a pivotal role to instil
positive behaviour in the young people, encouraging healthy
lifestyle, promoting social cohesion and nation-building. Sports and
recreation remains an important pillar of the nation-building and
the promoter of social cohesion across the society which is meant to
improve the quality of life of the people.

The ANC remains committed to the vision of the department which is
an active and a winning nation. The national sports and recreation
plan provides an enabling environment for an active and a winning
nation. Therefore, participation of our people in sports and
recreational activities is of vital importance. Equally important,
is the issue of transformation of some of the sporting codes like
rugby, cricket, tennis and other sporting codes that have always
been the prerogative of the minority white people.


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Additionally, in support of our people participating in sports and
recreational activities, the municipalities have been provided with
technical and management support for the provision of the facilities
in the sporting activities. The goal is to support 30 municipalities
annually to enable them to roll out the sporting facilities. The
sports infrastructure programme is growing significantly. However,
it must be noted that the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, must
be transferred to the Department of Sport and Recreation for
administration purposes.

It is also worth noting that we shall have to do a lot of work as
the ANC-led government to ensure that in the schools that were built
during the apartheid period, we secure space for the sports
infrastructure. We shall have to exercise expropriation of land to
develop the sports infrastructure for our young people and we are
not going to compensate for that. Thank you, Chairperson.
[Applause.]

Division demanded.
The Council divided:

[Take in from Minutes.]


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Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

Schedule put and agreed to.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and the Economic Freedom
Fighters dissenting).

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on
Appropriations thereon)

Declarations of votes:
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, members and fellow South
Africans ... [Interjections.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Mr A J Nyambi: Are you doing declarations?

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: ... yes, I want to do that. I am fired up to do
that, Chairperson.


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HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Mr A J Nyambi: Ok, ok, wait. I‘m noting the
objection. In accordance with rule 63 I shall first allow political
parties to make declaration of votes if they so wish. And that is
what you were doing and you can continue and do it. It is three
minutes.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, the hon De Beer our acting
Chairperson of the Select Committee on Appropriations earlier today,
tabled this Appropriation Bill and we spent the whole day dealing
with this issue. Once approved, the budget allocations will be made
available accordingly to allow the different spheres of government
and other related institutions to spend accordingly, to render
services to the different communities and beneficiaries at large.

Chairperson, the South African economy is in crisis to say the
least. And the worst is still to come. It is common knowledge by now
that we are in a recession at the moment. The five major banks all
State-Owned Enterprises and other well-known institutions have been
downgraded by the rating agencies and a full impact thereof must
still falter through to the rest of the economy.
Business confidence is at the all time low. Unemployment is penning
daily, further out of control. Indeed, a very depressing reality.
Unfriendly government investment policies driven by the current


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captured, doggy Minister of Finance, called by the press Malusi
Gigaba together with the granting of citizenship to the Gupta family
members‖ to South Africa is the next level of the ―Gupta saga‖.

Chairperson, it is critical that every cent spent by the South
African government is aimed to enhance economic growth and
ultimately job creation. The Appropriation Bill fell short of the
aforementioned goals. Therefore, the DA proposed the amendments to
the Appropriation Bill in terms of Section 44 of the Money Bills
Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act.

When the hon De Beer made his presentation this morning, he made
very clear that the ANC does not support it and it has rejected
that. It‘s a pity that they didn‘t read the 405 changes that the DA
proposed to the budget. Then, possible, they could have done
something to do some rectification in this total mess. This
proposals represents the substantial saving of the approximately
R7,1 billion and could have been used to fund other more disserving
needs.

The DA proposals are attached to the community report for scrutiny
and clarity. The ANC unfortunately, used its majority in the
committee to bulldoze as usual. They preferred waging through.


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Therefore, we want to make it very clear that the DA is not in a
position to support this Bill before the Council. I thank you.

Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, the Appropriation Bill, 5 of 2017 outlines
government spending priorities. South Africa faces difficult choices
in a rapidly changing world. The ANC continues to commit itself to
bettering the lives of all South Africans. While our fiscal
constraints are real and the strained economic conditions we find
ourselves in, the ANC has still appropriated more than half or our
budget toward social services. Health, education, social protection
and infrastructure spending remained our key spending areas. Without
these necessary interventions the dignity of South Africans will
remain unchanged. Key principles underpin Bill 5 of 2017. However,
two to four, none of those who opposed or rejected a number of
budget votes spoke against or objected to these principles.

We continue to fund priorities and address social economic
disparities. Housing, water, sanitation, electricity, social grants,
health care and education, continue to receive the biggest share of
our budget. Therefore, our priorities that we have committed to,
still remain funded for.


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We are still committed to service our debts, contain the budget
deficit and slow the pace of debt accumulation to maintain spending
programmes and promote confidence in the economy. Government is
committed to a measured path of fiscal consolidation that contains
the budget deficit and stabilises public debt.

Head counts in government departments have levelled and we owe these
positive outcomes to provinces such as Limpopo that has undergone a
rigorous process of verification. Government has adhered to the
spending ceiling since it was established in 2012.

The EFF has rejected vote after vote and not even offering an
alternative policy or using the same policy presented for an
alternative budget. What are the bases of the objections? One might
ask. From gossip to tabloid headlines to twitter and other reliable
sources; I gathered that this was the basis of the objections of the
EFF.

The DA proposes a support for the poor budget by increasing social
grants. Perhaps, it would help the DA to understand the total social
spend per person to those who are unemployed, indigent, vulnerable
who are mostly children, women and the elderly. Not only do all get


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equal grants irrespective of their race but are additional free
basic water, electricity, housing, basic education and health care.

While we agree that the food price inflation is at approximately at
7,7%, there are foods that have not been taxed like milk, bread,
eggs, mielie meal, edible legumes, vegetable oil, pilchards and
sardines. So, basic and staple foods are not taxed.

Hon member of the DA, yes, we did read your 405 alternative
proposals and those are the responses to each and every one of them.
If you follow the current budget you will notice that over the
medium-term, we save, not only R7,8 billion but R10,8 billion. So,
it is more than what you have proposed. Therefore, as the ANC, we
support Budget Vote 5 of 2017. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the IFP acknowledges that this
Appropriation Bill has been crafted in exceptionally challenging
economic circumstances both locally and globally. The high debt of
about 50% of the gross domestic product, GDP, is further aggravating
the already bleak situation.

Recent rating downgrades by rating agencies Standard & Poor‘s, S&P,
and Fitch Group, coupled with the not so promising response on the


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same exercise by Moody‘s will only further limit the spending
ability of the country. These activities have already dealt a blow
to the strength of the rand in the international markets.

What is of grave concern is that these negative occurrences are
further fuelled by inconsiderate political decisions taken at the
highest office of the country, the Presidency. The IFP is sensitive
to the concern by South African Local Government Association, Salga,
that only 9,1% of the overall budget of the country is allocated to
the local sphere of government. And with sluggish economic growth
and lack of adequate income to many of our households which is also
unduly placing pressure on the tax revenue generation of our
country.

Collectively, this has resulted in the South African Revenue Service
missing the tax targets of the financial year. The IFP also notes
and supports the call for adequate funding of the TVET colleges of
our country. If this is not given proper attention, our TVET
colleges will slowly degenerate into becoming glorified high
schools.

The IFP reiterates its call for this government to be realigned so
as to be more cost-effective, focused and result driven. A bloated


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government like the one we have under the current economic
conditions is no good for the economic recovery of the county. Under
the circumstances, the IFP encourages the concept of doing more with
less. And not all the three spheres f government are doing this.

The 2015-16 Audit Reports of the Auditor-General, AG, talks volumes.
The AG has raised concerns of lack of accountability, lack of
consequence management, wasteful and fruitless expenditure is
condoned through non action by relevant authority. I state, once
more, that when the IFP supports the budget, it is not because
things are well, but we do so in a state of political maturity in
order to allow governance to continue in the country.

We have done so in Johannesburg Metro, not because things are well
and good but because governance must continue. We have done so in
the past in Mogale City Local Municipality not because things are
well and good. We have done so in many other areas.

In the IFP, we are not a party of political opportunism; we are a
party of principle. We raise issues for corrective measures. Unlike
the opposition in Jozini Local Municipality which tried to collapse
governance by boycotting budget meetings. We don‘t do that. The IFP


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supports the Bill with all the mentioned reservations and
suggestions. I thank you.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the
Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS – INSPECTION IN LOCO ON NOTICE OF
INTERVENTION ISSUED IN TERMS OF SECTION 139(1)(B) OF CONSTITUTION,
1996, IN EMADLANGENI LOCAL MUNICIPALITY

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Hon House Chair, the provincial executive council
of KwaZulu-Natal province resolved during its meeting on 18 January
2017 to place the Emadlangeni local municipality under section
139(1)(b) of the Constitution. The main reason was that the
municipal council became dysfunctional after the 2016 local
government elections and took decisions which were irregular and
could financially prejudice the municipality.


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In terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution, the provincial
executive may intervene in a municipality if it cannot or dare not
fulfil an executive obligation in terms of the legislation or
Constitution. However, it must be pointed out from the beginning
that section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution is an integral part of
the institutional framework for developmental local government. It
is necessary correct when a municipality fails to govern and thus
jeopardise the enterprise of development. It is also an aspect of
intergovernmental relations and as such it must be exercised within
the spirit of co-operative governance as outlined in chapter 3 of
the Constitution.

According to the Provincial Department of Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs in KwaZulu-Natal since the reconstitution of
the municipality, councillors have been embroiled in fighting,
illegal suspensions and hiring of staff without any adherence to the
rules and procedures.

The root cause of trouble at Emadlangeni is political infighting,
which has resulted in irregular decision by the municipal council.
These includes amongst other issues, the suspension of the municipal
manager and the appointment of an acting municipal manager, who did
not the prerequisites required for the job.


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Having conducted the oversight visit to Emadlangeni local
municipality and interacted with internal and external stakeholders
and further considered the substantive matters brought to the
attention of the select committee in application of the relevant
legislation, it is recommended that the NCOP disapprove the
intervention in Emadlangeni local municipality in terms of section
139(1)(b) of the Constitution; the South African Local Government
Association, Salga, in co-operation with the Local Government Sector
Education and Training Authority, LGSETA, should facilitate training
and capacity building for municipal councillors at Emadlangeni for
further deepening their understanding of their oversight role, legal
framework and policies that govern the activities of the
municipality.

The KwaZulu-Natal MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs should table quarterly progress reports to the NCOP on the
performance and implementation of the back to basics pillars in the
municipality including the filling of the senior management
vacancies.

I move this report. Thank you.

Debate concluded.


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Declarations of vote:
Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon House Chair, as Eastern Cape Province, we rise to
express our outmost support to the approval of the intervention in
Emadlangeni local municipality in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the
Constitution. It is our firm belief that NCOP has a constitutional
obligation and responsibility to intervention to address the dire
state of the municipality.

Hon House Chairperson, the dire state of affairs in the municipality
has totally crippled its ability to meet the constitutional mandate
of ensuring the provision of the basic services to the people of
Utrecht. The municipality is suffering from some of the worst form
political squabbles that are deliberately orchestrated to ensure
instability and systematic looting of public funds and flouting
legislation and government processes. This has robbed the people of
Utrecht access to basic services such as reliable clean drinking
water as enshrined in the Constitution.

Since the reconstitution of the municipality after the local
government elections last year, councillors have been embroiled in
infighting petty political squabbles and illegal suspensions and
hiring of staff without adherence to the rules and procedures. The


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municipality has also been experiencing political infighting, which
has resulted irregular decisions by the council. [Interjections.]

Mr M KHAWULA: The hon speaker is misleading the House. She must say
political infighting in the ruling party, not just political
infighting because it is the infighting of the councillors of the
ruling party.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Khawula, let‘s allow her
to continue. Let us not subject it to a debate.

Ms Z V NCITHA: We are aware that several attempts and initiatives
were instituted to support the municipality. It must be stated that
all indications are that the various interventions by the province
are not yielding any benefit. It is for this reason that we believe
we need to take decisive measures to restore order in that
municipality. We want to argue to the province, particularly the MEC
for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, hon MEC Nomsa
Dube, to work tirelessly with greater urgency during the
intervention to make sure that service delivery to the people of
Utrecht is fast-tracked and that governance in the municipality is
restored. Thank you very much.


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Mr B G NTHEBE: House Chair, the report presentation presented by the
acting chair and to a larger extent supported by hon Ncitha was
eloquent on the issues that are impacting negatively on service
delivery. Therefore, move on behalf of the North West, that clause
15.1.1 of the Report of the Select Committee be amended to read as
follows, ―The NCOP approves the intervention in Emadlangeni Local
Municipality in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution‖.

Question put: That the amendments be agreed to.

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order, House Chair! Was that the legal
opinion that you were requesting? Guys, you are cowards.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Mokwele, there are
Rules that guides this process. So, I expect heads of delegation to
assist when it comes to the voting part.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon House Chairperson, you raised the question on
the amendment of the motion. Are you going to ask us for
declarations on that before we vote on the amendment?


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes. It is going to be heads
of delegation that will be voting. We are going to do it per
province. I am going to allow declarations of provinces.

Ms N P KONI: You failed in Nquthu, now you want to come and capture
Emadlangeni. I am a deployee there. I will make sure that you don‘t
get it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not a point of order.
Let‘s vote in alphabetical order. Before we get to the voting, let‘s
deal with the declaration on the amendment.

Declaration of vote:
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The Select Committee on Local Government submitted
the report that was ATC-ed and placed in the Order Paper for today
as order number 3. A request from the chair moved this order to the
end of the day‘s proceedings. The committee agreed not to accede to
the proposed intervention based on a fact-finding mission and the
local inspection as the report reflected. Rule 94.6 of this House
stipulates that the meeting with section 76 agenda item must be
called with at least 72 hours notice except in an exceptional case
and after the chairperson of the relevant committee has consulted
with the delegates whips.


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Hon House Chairperson, no exceptional circumstances or reasons have
been explained to this House. The very fact that this item after
being ATC-ed now wants to be amended proves that there has been
political interference. It was for this reason that the select
committee took into considerations the interference of the MEC and
that now there is a request to amend the intervention. Therefore,
the Western Cape will not vote for the amendment of the motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. It is provinces.
Okay, I can give you an opportunity to make your point of order.

Mr M KHAWULA: House Chair, the hon House Chair allowed declarations
of provinces on the report of the committee ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Let me repeat myself ...

Mr M KHAWULA: Can you allow me to finish, House Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay.

Mr M KHAWULA: ... before all the provinces can make their
declarations. That is after only two of them have made declarations
and one of them is suggesting an amendment. Now, the House Chair


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wants declarations on the amendment before the provinces have
finished declarations on the original report of the committee. House
Chairperson, you are confusing me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, let me explain so that
there is no confusion. I have allowed provinces to do amendments.
Then two provinces did. After that, I allowed provinces to do
declarations before we can get to the voting part. Right now we are
busy with declarations of provinces. Hon Labuschagne has done it on
behalf of Western Cape. So, I was now checking if any other province
that has interest, but if none, then we will go straight to voting.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I rise on a point of order before I vote.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We are voting now.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No, I rise on a point of order. My point of order
is: on what Rule is a report being amended in this House? No, you
must give me the Rule on this House for the amendment of that report
that was agreed by the committee and ATC-ed. According to my
information, the meeting called at lunch time is not according to
Rule 94. You had to have a 72-hour notice. So, the meeting at lunch
time was out of order and is not according to the Rules. The


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amendment of a report via the motion that has been ATC-ed is not
according to the Rules. Can you give me that Rule? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me deal with
it. There is a report that was brought to the attention of the NCOP.
The NCOP has a right to accept or reject any report. So, there is
nothing wrong with that. Okay, let me repeat. They can accept, amend
and reject reports. Western Cape, we are still dealing with the
voting. [Interjections.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, can you quote me? On my point of
order I asked for the dissolution of this House and a meeting where
I can get a proof from the Chairperson where this Rule is in the
Rule Book. If there is no Rule we will follow this up because the
committee did the recommendation on the report. As far as I am
concerned this House approves or reject the report. This House does
not have the right to amend the intervention according to the
Constitution. The Constitution trumps the Rules of the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me first read Rule 71,
declaration of vote:


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On request, may allow each province, in a speech not exceeding
three minutes by the delegation head or another member authorised
by the delegation head, to state the reasons why the province is
in favour of or against the question.

I said in accordance with Rule 71, I shall allow provinces an
opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. That
is what happened.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are not recognised. Let
me deal with the Chief Whip and I will come back to you. Hon Chetty,
you cannot shout. Any person who wants to talk will be recognised,
and you are not recognised yet. I am saying do not shout. I am
appealing to you. Yes, you will be recognised. I am now recognising
the Chief Whip. Take your seat.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I rise on a point of
order to the issue raised regarding the procedure followed in
amending the report of the select committee. Hon Chair, the House in
fulfilling its functions is guided by the Constitution, and I agree
with members who have said so, with the Rules, conventions and
practices which have been followed and applied for over time. Rule


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255 (5) deals with the report of the committee regarding
interventions. In terms of this Rule, Rule 255 (5) (a) and (b):

The report of the committee must(a)

contain a recommendation whether or not the intervention
should be approved; and

(b)

be placed on the Order Paper for consideration.

That was done. This means that the House is the final arbiter on the
report which may include rejecting, approving or amending.

Rule 255 (6) further enjoins the Council in a case of approving the
intervention to direct the committee to investigate whether the
intervention should continue or not. The proposed amendment to the
report is in order and it is up to the House to decide whether to
accept the amendment or reject them. I so move, Chair. Thanks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Michalakis, you will be
the second. He has quoted the Rule and I think we were listening.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Incorrectly! Incorrect!


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The problem is that if
[Interjections.] Yes, I am saying when he was presenting the Rules.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, firstly, with the greatest
respect, when you said that the House can consider, pass, amend and
so on, I suspect that you are confusing it with section 68 of the
Constitution which deals with the powers of the National Council of
Provinces, which says:

The National Council of Provinces may consider, pass, amend,
propose amendments or reject any legislation before the Council,
in accordance with this Chapter.

That deals only with legislation and we are not dealing with a Bill
at the moment. The Rules are clear that as a House we must either
reject or accept it. The Rules do not provide powers to this House
to propose an amendment within the plenary itself. Amendments should
be proposed in the committee section. According to the Constitution
this House can make its own Rules. It has been silent on the fact
that we can make amendments in the plenary therefore we do not have
those powers that we have given to ourselves.


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Chairperson, it is a simple question of yes or no - we cannot only
accept or reject. There is no source of power that has given this
Council, either in our Rules or in the Constitution, the power to
amend a report that was adopted by a committee. I appeal to you with
sincerity, please, it is a dangerous ground. Do not trade on a
dangerous ground if such matters could be challenged elsewhere.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I have dealt
with this matter as an officer presiding today. If hon members are
not satisfied with how I am dealing with it, there is recourse. We
can‘t subject the process of the item that we are dealing with.
Let‘s get the vote of the Western Cape because we are voting.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, obviously, our Rule Books differ from
our Whip‘s Rule Books because I was following him word for word.
What he read is not in this Rule Book. I‘m going to repeat what is
in the version of my Rule Book unless you have reprinted a Rule Book
between one o‘clock this afternoon and four o‘clock this afternoon.
This is the Rule Book and let me read. It says, and I will talk as
loud as I like to those of you who are deaf because you don‘t
understand the Rules. This is Part 2 interventions and Rule 254 (5)


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Engelbrecht, may you
withdraw what you have said.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, I‘m reading from the Rule Book.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, before you can. Order
members! Hon Engelbrecht, may you withdraw the statement that you
have said before you start reading.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: I withdraw whatever I said, Mr Chair. Can I
continue?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you cannot withdraw with
conditions.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: I don‘t know what I said. What did I say? I said
that people must listen.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you said if people are
deaf.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Yes, they must be if I can‘t hear what I‘m
reading. I withdraw that they are deaf, Mr Chair - I withdraw that.


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I am reading Part 2 item (5) which the Chief Whip read to us and I
am reading it word for word.

The report of the committee must –
(a)

contain a recommendation whether or not the intervention
should be approved; and

(b)

be placed on the Order Paper for consideration.

Rule 255 (6) read as follows:

If the Council approves the intervention, the committee must on a
continuous basis investigate whether or not it is necessary to
continue the intervention, and report to the Council.

Here there is nothing about changing it. It only says that it must
either approve or not approve. This is the Rule Book in my hand, Mr
Chair.

Mr M CHETTY: What about me?

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, so this is my Rule Book? Has it
changed? My question is, has it changed?


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am recognising hon Chetty.

Mr M CHETTY: Chair, similarly, you quoted Rule 71 under declaration
of vote. Let me read to you now as well because it is clear that we
are having a problem. The last Rule by hon Engelbrecht had no
mention of amendments, but yet it was mentioned by the Chief Whip.
Let me get back to yours, Mr Chairperson.

If all the delegation heads are present, or if not all the
delegation heads are present and at least three minutes have
elapsed since the bells have stopped ringing, the officer
presiding –

(a)

must put the question; and

(b)

on request, may allow each province, in a speech not
exceeding three minutes by the delegation head or another
member authorised by the delegation head, to state the
reasons why the province is in favour of or against the
question.

Clearly, there is no place there for an amendment. So what this
House should be doing - and I am not taking your job - is either to
support the recommendations of the select committee or reject it.


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That is what we should be dealing with it here. You do not have
other place to manoeuvre. It is a pity today to this House which is
said to be an independent. It is a pity that the chairperson is not
here as well. But I would like to remind her about what is happening
because this House is controlled from outside. We have an MEC who
has flown in today to overturn the decision of this House. We cannot
allow this House to be manipulated by MECs in provinces. We are here
to give them guidance. Today, you are going to make a decision which
is not only misleading, but also going to have consequences that the
NCOP will be in court. And that is not what I said because you know
we have a high success in that. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I don‘t know whether you are
deliberately making that false statement when you say the
chairperson is not here whilst you can see her.

IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo. Awu,
ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ngoba yimina obecele lokucaciselwa. [clarity]
Sekuyacaca ukuthi engathi ucishe usise ngasehlathini, sikhiphe
Sihlalo.

English:


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We will not let this House to be captured by provinces. Let us do
the job of this House as contained in the Rules of this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I have made the
point very clear. Eight provinces have completed the part of voting.
We are left with the Western Cape to vote. Let us deal with the part
of voting. The Western Cape, about the amendments! You can vote
against or abstain.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on which bases of the Constitution
and the Rules are you proceeding with voting? If you can give me
that then we can vote, otherwise we are not going to vote.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is up to you to abstain.
It‘s your right.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No, no, Chairperson, you are misusing your powers
on that chair to turnaround the decision of the select committee. On
a further point of order, according to the Rules of this House every
member has been delegated to a select committee. Committees have
their jobs of dealing with legislation, interventions and
oversights. The select committee did exactly that. They went on a
visit and later wrote a report. A quick meeting was called. That


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report has a specific recommendation that each and everyone in this
House listened to this afternoon and it is on Hansard. There was a
meeting without proper notification according to Rule 94. There is
no place for any amendment in this Rule. So, hon Chair, the only
thing that this House can do is either vote for the report, reject
the report or withdraw the report from the Order Paper and refer it
back to the committee. And if you don‘t want to do that, if this
House has to overturn a decision of a select committee, then this
whole House must go on a site visit, come back and decide upon the
site visit.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me just
outline two things. Firstly, in the National Council of Provinces,
we don‘t have a single committee that is bigger than the House. We
don‘t have a single committee that can override the House. Secondly,
whatever we do, you are correct when you quote the Rules, but when
quoting the Rules it would be important to quote them to the latter
and not be selective. We are involved in the process of voting. I
have started and I am done with eight provinces. While dealing with
the last one, instead of dealing with the part of voting, then you
raise a point of order. I have been very patient. I allowed many of
you to raise the points of order and we entertained it. Is either
you vote against, vote in favour or abstain. If you are not


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satisfied with the process you do have recourse. I don‘t want to
discuss that there is someone who has been flown into Cape Town. I
am presiding and I don‘t know anything about those things, but you
are subjecting me to, and it is wrong and unfair.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy House Chairperson, from this side of the
House, we are at this stage being forced to take part in a procedure
that is according to us highly irregular. We have not been
unreasonable up to now. All what we asked was the hon member
suggested or proposed an amendment. We simply want to know in terms
of which Rule can he have the power to do that? That‘s all we want
to know. If you can give us the Rule in terms of which the hon
member has the power to move such amendment, we will keep quiet, sit
down and maintain our order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me ask you the very same
thing. Hon Michalakis, as an hon member of this House, in terms of
which Rule that when people are voting you can rise on a point of
order? I am posing a question to you. Assist me as someone who is
presiding. We are voting and you are raising a point of order. Which
Rule is that?


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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy House Chairperson, the Rules make provision
for a point of order. It does not make provision for an amendment.
That is the difference. And if you do not understand that then with
the greatest respect[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let us have the vote of the
Western Cape. Are you abstaining or voting against? Hon members,
eight provinces voted in favour, and I therefore declare the
amendment agreed to. [Applause.]

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, North West, Northern Cape.

Amendments to the report agreed to in terms of section 65 of the
Constitution.

Question put: That the amended Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, North West, Northern Cape.

Amended Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of
the Constitution.


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Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 18:11.





 


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