Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 25 Oct 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
TUESDAY, 25 OCTOBER 2016
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
The Council met at 14:03.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NO MOTIONS
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will not be any notices of motion or motions without notice.
Before I proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the President to this House. Forthwith, I will proceed to invite the President to respond to the questions. Hon President, the first question on our Question Paper is from the hon B G Nthebe of the North West. You are welcome, sir.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon President, please take your seat. Hon Mokwele, you are rising?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, Chair. I am rising on a point of order: I humbly request your honourable self not to allow Mr Zuma, the president of the ANC, to address this august House. Bearing in mind that Mr Zuma has violated his Oath of Office as the President of the country, Mr Zuma lied to the august House of the National Assembly
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: Again, Mr Zuma ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, Ma’am?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, you rose on a point of order, not to make a speech. Can you please get to the point?
Ms T J MOKWELE: The Rules allow me, before I speak, Ma’am, to deliberate on what I want to say.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Rules also allow me to make a determination.
Ms T J MOKWELE: But before you come to that, hon Chair, you must allow me to speak so that you can hear.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I asked you to please get to the point.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I’m getting to the point. As the august House ... as this House is the upper House of Parliament ... I am requesting your kind self that we do not repeat the same mistake that the National Assembly has made by allowing Mr Zuma to address the hon Members of Parliament, as he is not honourable enough. So, Ma’am, I am requesting your kind self, knowing that you have that integrity, to rule on this matter. Rule in favour of South Africans. Do not rule in favour of Mr Zuma and the ANC. I am kindly requesting you, Ma’am. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, ma’am. Please take your seat. Hon Mokwele, I do think that the Rules, protocols, and precedents of this House were all in our minds as we sat listening to you. The hon President of the Republic has addressed this House on numerous occasions. The hon President of this country, at his insistence, set a precedent in this country of taking questions and addressing this House. He is here, again, on a date agreed to by this House on a programme ... Please take your seat, hon Vawda. I’m addressing a member of your party on a point of order.
And you are right. I am within my rights and within the duty of this House that has adopted a programme which says that the President addresses and responds to questions in this House, today. This House does not deal with the violation of the oath of duty. If there is a House that has to deal with that, it’s the House that has been given constitutional powers to deal with that. It is not this House. The hon Zuma will therefore continue to respond. You are standing on a point of order again. I hope it is not spurious.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, Ma’am. Having said what I’ve said, hon Chair, it is in the Constitution that the President, in his own capacity, may come to the House. I’m just appealing to you that we must not repeat ... we must not act illegally, as the upper House of Parliament ... we must not allow ... there’s nowhere in the Constitution that states ... there’s nowhere in the Constitution that states ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... Mr Zuma is obliged to come to this House. So, I’m appealing to you, Ma’am. Mr Zuma is not honourable enough.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, please take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: He cannot address hon members. Hence, he has violated the oath of the office that he presides over. I’m appealing
to you. Let us not repeat what the National Assembly did. Let us not do what the National Assembly did. Ma’am, I’m appealing to you to exercise your integrity.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I know you are a very principled person. Just exercise that principle that you have.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, take your seat. Hon member, you made that point. You have repeated yourself. You have made the appeal and I am rejecting that appeal. The hon President will proceed to respond to questions in this House as per the programme of this House. Hon Vawda?
Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you, hon Chair. Inasmuch as we understand how you have made your verdict and how you have come to the conclusions, we are of the opinion that the hon Jacob Zuma is not competent enough to be President of this country and it is on those grounds that we make the appeal to you to make a ruling that is different to that which was passed in the House of the National Assembly.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Vawda. You are repeating what your colleague has said. I have already ruled in this instance. Please take your seat.
Dr Y C VAWDA: We are emphasising ... Hon Chairperson, we are emphasising the point.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Don’t emphasise. I have made my ruling. Please take your seat!
Dr Y C VAWDA: We are making an urgent appeal to you that in the light of issues that have taken place ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, take your seat!
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, there are a number of issues that have taken place in recent years that have indicated very clearly ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Cut that microphone.
Dr Y C VAWDA: These issues ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Cut that microphone! Hon Vawda and hon Mokwele, take your seats. I have ruled on this point. I have ruled on this point and I’m not going to repeat a ruling.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.] ... As a member of this House, the hon Vawda has a right to speak. You cannot allow ... [Inaudible.] ... while the hon member is ... [Inaudible.] ... You are ...
[Inaudible.] ... the President ... [Inaudible.] ... to come and address us ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I’m appealing to you, Ma’am, that ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat, or you force me to ask you to leave this House.
Ms T J MOKWELE: But that’s what you want. We are raising our issues here. As members of this House, we have a right to speak in this House ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele!
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat. Take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.] ... when are we going to address the
... [Inaudible.] ... that the House is supposed to hear us when we are appealing. We are here on behalf of South Africa.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are all here ... Please take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Allow Dr Vawda to speak. He has the right ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He does have the right.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Sit down! Take your seat!
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat. Take your seat, Dr Vawda. Take your seat.
Hon members, I have made a ruling. I gave the hon Mokwele the opportunity to make her point of order. I gave her a second opportunity and she repeated the same point of order. I made a ruling. Dr Vawda rose on the same point of order. I am not going to entertain any other points of order on this same matter. [Applause.]
[Interjections.] If the hon members feel ... Order, members! If you are on this point of order, Mr Chabangu, I will not take your hand.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.] ... no, Chair. You can’t predict ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If you are rising on this point of order, I will not take your hand.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please leave the House. [Interjections.] On the basis that, one, you are ... [Interjections.] Please leave this House.
Ms T J MOKWELE: For what? What have I done? What have I done? [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are holding the business of the House to ransom.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you refusing to leave this House?
Ms T J MOKWELE: You cannot predict what the hon Chabangu ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Usher of the Black Rod, please escort that member out of this House.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Allow the hon Chabangu to make his point. [Inaudible.] Allow the hon ... [Inaudible.] ... to make his point. [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] You can’t do that. You can’t do that!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!
Ms T J MOKWELE: You can’t deny the hon ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] You can’t. You can’t. You can’t. That is not right, Chairperson, please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mthimunye, order! Thank you very much. I now wish ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: Why are you throwing me out? Why are you throwing me out? [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I gave you the opportunity ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible] ... you will just say those bouncers must come inside here. [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will now call on the Parliamentary Protection Services to come and assist you out of this House.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.] ... bouncers in this House. [Inaudible.] We don’t ... [Inaudible.] ... We don’t have a ... [Inaudible.] ... in this House. [Inaudible.] And I want to make it clear that ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please leave the House. [Interjections.] Hon Vawda, is it a different point of order that you are raising?
Dr Y C VAWDA: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is different. I will hear it.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you, hon Chair. You have already asked us to leave the House. Please allow us an opportunity to at least explain. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! I can’t hear the member. Hon Vawda?
Dr Y C VAWDA: Please allow us the opportunity at least to explain our position. You are asking us to leave before we have explained our position.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, you have been given an opportunity. You spoke after a repetition of the same request by the hon Mokwele, which I refused. You came in and you stated your facts. I then ruled by saying, no. If you want to state more facts, then I’m afraid I cannot allow that space.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Alright, hon Chair. Then allow us to say that we do not recognise the legitimacy of the Presidency of Jacob Zuma as President of this country and as such, it leaves us with no choice but to leave this House. [Interjections.] We will leave this House on those grounds.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Dr Vawda, you are within your rights to leave this House. It is your choice. You are free to leave this House, but if you do so, do it in an orderly fashion, because we want to start with the business of the day. Please leave, Dr Vawda. You said you want to leave. Mr Chabangu?
An HON MEMBER: Do you also want to leave? Just leave. Don’t ... [Interjections.]
Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, with due respect ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!
Mr M M CHABANGU: Please allow us to have our say. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!
Mr M M CHABANGU: Do not throw us out one by one. Otherwise, we are not going to listen to the President. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
Mr M M CHABANGU: We are not going to listen to him because ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order!
Mr M M CHABANGU: ... of the things that he has done.
An HON MEMBER: It’s your choice. Who are you?
Mr M M CHABANGU: Hey, I’m not speaking to you, wena. [Interjections.] Just have a look ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ntate Mohapi, order! Hon Chabangu, can I respond to you? You are fairly new in the House, and you are within your rights to want to be listened to. The leader of your party in the House has made ... [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Hon Koni, will you respect this House? [Interjections.] You will ... [Interjections.]
... you will respect this House.
Mr M M CHABANGU: [Inaudible.] ... I’m older than you. Hey! I’m older than you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ntate Mohapi! Hon Mohapi! Hon Chabangu, the leader of the EFF in this House has put her case. If the EFF says it will make repeated motions on the same issue so that this House does not conclude its business, then it will not get it right today because this House will start and finish its business of the day. [Applause.] So, no amount of filibustering will help you today.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Help me to do what?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That motion ... that point of order has been made three times already - twice by your leader. The second person to make it was Dr Vawda. You are either going to participate in terms of the Rules, or you risk being asked to leave this House, because we are going to start and finish the business of this House.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Are you requesting me to leave the House?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The argument that you are representing the people ... is that all these other people who are sitting here are also public representatives representing the people. People want to hear the President responding to the questions put by different members of this House ... [Applause.] ... and that business will continue. So, take your seat. Take your seat.
Mr M M CHABANGU: But you cannot say I’m new and therefore I must not debate in the House. I’m new?
Mr M J MOHAPI: Yes.
Mr M M CHABANGU: What do you mean? [Interjections.] Then you are ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will not take that dialogue, Ntate Mohapi.
Mr M M CHABANGU: But you allow Mohapi to undermine me!
O re ke lenywere. Lenywere ke yena. [You are a newcomer. The newcomer is you.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ntate Chabangu, please take your seat.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Madam ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ntate Chabangu, take your seat.
Mr M M CHABANGU: If you allow the President to come and speak, I won’t sit down.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ntate Chabangu, you are instructed to take your seat.
Mr M M CHABANGU: If you allow the President to come and speak ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Usher of the Black Rod, assist that member out of this House. [Interjections.]
I am addressing this member. I will come to you.
Alright. Parliamentary Protection Services, please assist the member. [Interjections.] Order! Order! Hon Koni, you are on the floor. [Interjections.]
Ms N P KONI: [Inaudible.] I’m relaxed. This is not your household. Thank you, Chairperson. How much damage will this man be allowed to make? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that ... [Interjections.] Order! Order! Order!
Ms N P KONI: That man sitting there is a murderer! [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Order!
Ms N P KONI: Look! He’s laughing. There ... sitting there. He’s a thief!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Koni!
Ms N P KONI: That man sitting there is a rapist! [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order.
Ms N P KONI: Khwezi is dead today because of this man. [Interjections.] This man is a thief! This man ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni, take your seat.
Ms N P KONI: I am not taking any seat. This man is a thief. He’s a murderer! [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright. Usher of the Black Rod ... Hon Hattingh, your hand is up? I’m dealing with this first. She’s refusing. Parliamentary Protection Services, come to our assistance. [Interjections.]
Ms T J Mokwele, Mr M M Chabangu and Ms N P Koni were ordered by the Chairperson to withdraw from the Chamber in terms of Rule 37(1)(b).
HON MEMBERS: Hamba! Hamba, mama! [Go! Go, ma’am!] [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, it does not help the House, when there is disruption, for you all to be screeching
... not screaming ... at the tops of your voices. It does not help
us because all of you then look like, you know, you are part of it. Hon Hattingh, I recognise you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you, hon Chair. Firstly, I must express my appreciation for your firmness in dealing with this matter. However, I am very, very concerned with what I saw just now. This is a gun- free zone. I saw members ... people from outside coming into this House carrying firearms. Certainly, we cannot tolerate that.
Can I ask for your ruling on that, please, and get the assurance that no firearms will be brought into this Chamber anymore, specifically, not today?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Hattingh, I do not know of any person in this Chamber who is carrying a gun. You saw it?
Mr C HATTINGH: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Hattingh, the matter you are raising is serious. We will take it up, but I am quite sure it is not ... It is a point that is valid. It must be taken up.
I also do know that the hon Hattingh is raising this because he knows I took a stand in a particular province on this matter. I will attend to that matter. Hon members, as much as possible, we do not want guns in this Chamber, so, we will ensure that it does not
happen again. Can I then have this House back in order? Hon Mahumapelo, you had your hand up?
The PREMIER OF THE NORTH WEST (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): Thank you very much, hon Chair. I just wanted to say that, as a collective in the House here, we must respect the Chair. It is our responsibility to make sure that we make the work of the Chair much easier because we are a collective here that represents communities ... adult enough
... and we can’t come here and misbehave.
Chair, I wanted to say that you are in total control of this House, and I think you are in order. Nobody must say that you are out of order because, so far, you have been following the Rules. You have been giving everybody the opportunity to speak and you only acted when it was necessary to do so. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Hon Smit, can we proceed with the business of the day after we hear you out?
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I am highly disturbed by members of the ANC that found it very amusing and laughed while violence was taking place in this House. We want to call this an honourable House but that is really ... It is concerning, hon Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your point is taken, sir. Can we proceed? Hon Nyambi, can we proceed? Thank you very much. Order,
members. The two Gauteng members, Julius ... I do appreciate that you like your province very much, but can we have a National Council of Provinces meeting now? Thank you very much. Hon President, you are on Question 1.
Hon Nyambi, what is it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chair, with the utmost respect, I am humbly requesting that for the sake of convenience, could you allow the President to use the podium instead of his having his back facing towards our side?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: For convenience’s sake, I have given
... [Laughter.] ... that a lot of thought. I think it is very convenient for the President to address us from where he is. I do know that members want to see his face, but I think let’s allow the President to address us from where he is. President, please proceed. [Applause.]
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC:
International rating agencies
1. Mr B G Nthebe (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
What is the influence of the (a) rating agencies and (b) results of their findings on the different agreements and commissions entered into between South Africa and other countries (details furnished)? CO393E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair of the NCOP and members, credit rating agencies assess the ability of debtors to pay back the money they owe. Depending on their assessment, they then issue credit ratings for sovereign borrowers, such as our government.
Since most countries depend on international investors and access to international capital markets, good credit ratings are very important. They determine the cost of borrowing money and give an indication to international investors of whether to invest in a country, or not.
Our government approaches economic policy, including fiscal policy, prudently. It always seeks to ensure that there is macroeconomic stability and that public finances are sustainable. There is no doubt that adhering to this approach has helped preserve South Africa’s credit rating. We take the agencies and their work very seriously because it is also another mechanism through which governments take stock of the work they do and show continuous improvements in governance. Whilst rating agencies are an important feature of the world economy, they do not necessarily impact on agreements between countries. I thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Chair, through you to the hon President: In your response you spoke about the necessity of investor confidence, and this can be drawn from the explanation you gave. Of importance also, however, is our macroeconomic policy, which allows us to exercise fiscal prudence in terms of the discipline that is necessary to avert possibilities that might come out of credit ratings.
Whilst we await with the greatest anticipation the establishment of a Brics rating agency, please explain the rationale behind such a noble idea and what its benefits are, if any, for developing countries and Brics member states in terms of the rating agencies that might come in the near future.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, the Brics countries have decided to discuss this matter of ratings and have felt it is necessary to have their own agency in terms of rating. This decision is partly because the manner in which rating agencies have operated so far leaves some concerns, particularly for developing countries and for the members of Brics.
You will appreciate that the concentration of the ratings does not seem to be well balanced, according to the view of Brics member states. For example, there is less said about countries that have been faced with difficulties since the global meltdown. We don’t hear ratings made on them all the time.
You know, for example, that the entire Europe has been in difficulty for a long time but there are no rating agencies that visit those countries from time to time to rate them. However, if the developing countries have difficulties, they come, rate, and make public statements, continuously.
Developing countries, but with big economies, like that of China, which is the second biggest economy in the world ... there is more said about China than other big countries. Leaving aside the fact that the views of the economies in the world are not exactly the same, there may be people with a particular school of economic thought and who are part of the rating agencies, but there may also be other people who think differently. And that is what has made the Brics countries ... particularly, because if you look at the membership of Brics, it is comprised of countries that are very prominent in their respective regions.
Therefore, these countries think, for safety’s sake, and also for assuring that, indeed, the kind of elements looked at by the rating agencies are correct, they therefore think they need a rating agency that will be moving from their understanding and philosophy as to how the economies should be. That is precisely the reason why they have taken the decision that they could rate themselves and, perhaps, in addition, rate others as well, so that a complete and balanced view is taken into account when the ratings are made. Thank you very much.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that the President is actually downgrading the rating agencies themselves. I think the Brics rating agencies are far from credible. So, let us focus on the present, Mr President.
Institutional strength, which largely influences sovereign ratings, and the stability of a country are dependent on its leader’s ability to lead the country transparently and with accountability. This, of course, Mr President, has not been the case, given that your administration has been marred by nothing but controversy and scandals.
South Africa faces the risk of junk status if the status quo continues. And in order to avert this, I would like to know whether you would be willing to commit to withdrawing your application seeking to interdict the release of the report on state capture, because that will certainly help us to avert junk status. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr President, you are within your rights to respond to this question, or not. At the tail end of this question, the hon Julius introduces a completely new question. But the President is within his rights.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, hon Chair, it is within my rights, even if the question is not necessarily relevant. However, I
think it is important for me to tell the hon member that, as a citizen of this country, I have a right – a legal right - to exercise my rights. And this is what I have done in terms of the Public Protector’s report. [Interjections.]
I interdicted it because she was going to issue a report without having talked to me or asked me questions. And it is within my rights, as also stated in the Public Protector Act, that those who are to be questioned have a right to do what I have done. It has nothing to do with ratings. Thank you. [Applause.]
SA’s economic stability
2. Mr W F Faber (Northern Cape) asked the President of the Republic:
What is his position on South Africa’s economic stability, given the ongoing investigation into the Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan? CO385E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, the economic stability of the country is paramount, given that we are faced by the three critical challenges of unemployment, poverty, and inequality. We need economic stability and inclusive growth to enable us to respond to these challenges. The National Development Plan, NDP, outlines the goals we want to achieve, which will enable us to improve the living conditions of our people. We are currently
working together with business and labour to stabilise the economy and to reignite growth.
The recent events regarding allegations and, lately, charges proffered by the National Prosecuting Authority against the Minister of Finance are a concern to all of us, including the investor community. As Cabinet, we have expressed our full support of the Minister, while respecting the independence of law enforcement and the prosecuting authority.
The Minister has also received public support from various stakeholders in the country since the announcement of the charges, including business, religious leaders, and community organisations. This support is being expressed because of the belief in the rule of law and in the fact that the Minister has not been found guilty of any crime. He is innocent until found guilty by a competent court of law, like all citizens. I thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, through you to Mr President: When did you learn of Shaun Abrahams’s intention to charge Pravin Gordhan? Was this discussed during Mr Abrahams’s visit to Luthuli House for the meeting with you and Ministers on 10 October - the day before charging the Minister of Finance?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Again, Mr President, you are within your rights not to respond. Mr Faber, your follow-up question is not
arising from a response, but the President is within his rights. It is not ... please, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, firstly, the matter of the Minister - I think the member should appreciate this - is before the courts. I don’t think we should be discussing details of that matter when it is before the courts. I must also say that the matter was never discussed with the President. Never. Never, never, never.
Secondly, the meeting that the hon member is referring to ... again, I am sure he is keen to know the details. That was a meeting between the President and the Security Cluster, discussing a totally different matter, not the matter of any arrest. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, relating to the current situation with regard to the prosecution of the Minister of Finance, what interventions have you, Mr President, initiated to avert a downgrade by rating agencies?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Sorry, I don’t know whether I heard the question clearly.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please repeat yourself.
Mr C F B SMIT: Relating to the current situation with regard to the prosecution of the Minister of Finance, what interventions has the President made to avert a downgrade by rating agencies?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, this country adheres to the Constitution and the rule of law. No individual is given the right within that to interfere with independent processes and decisions of independent institutions. I think if this President were to interfere in any matter, whether with Chapter 9 institutions or other institutions, then the country would be closer to a banana republic. No intervention can be made when you don’t know what is happening. Once the law enforcement agencies act and take matters to court, only the courts can look at and judge on that matter. No individual can come and intervene. I don’t know whether the member is suggesting that I should be intervening whenever there is an arrest. I don’t know. [Interjections.]
Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chairperson, I would also thank the President to, once more, reassure the supremacy of the rule of law, which we proclaim, amongst others, as the Republic of South Africa.
The President has said that the stability of the South African economy needs to be understood within the broader, global economic context. Will the hon President agree that since the 2008 global economic downturn, South Africa’s economy has been resilient, largely because of sound policies that have been put in place? Also,
will the President agree that it is the task of a democratic government to strengthen its capacity to ensure the implementation of the NDP? Thank you, hon Chair.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, yes, I definitely would agree with the hon member that, ever since the economic meltdown, the policies of our government helped to cushion that blow, as it made many countries in the world go through difficulties. We have succeeded in doing so because there are clear policies that we have followed. We have been very prudent in the manner in which we implement those policies and, indeed, we were able to have our economy - particularly during the first wave - coming out strongly, very resilient.
Even when the second wave came, we have also been resilient, and we have taken all the right decisions. You will recall that, at a given time, when everyone in the world was saying that there is no growth
- there is no inclusive growth - we sat down and worked out what the aspects of the economy were that would make it more resilient and move forward. That’s when we emerged with the Nine-Point Plan as very specific strategies to focus on and therefore, it is the area on which we should focus our resources, as well.
Yes, we have succeeded because we have correct policies and, indeed, the lack of economic growth has affected all countries. There is no country that has never been affected. It is not a South African
issue. It is an issue ... as I was saying earlier, Europe was actually more affected than any other region in the world. So, every country has had to show their resilience and South Africa has been one of them. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, my question pertains to the President’s reply to the hon Smit’s follow-up question, if I may proceed?
Hon President, in your own words, you have just said, in reply to the hon Smit, that it would be improper for you to interfere with the work of the rating agencies and the Chapter 9 institutions.
Again, my question will then be to you: If, in your own words, it would be improper to interfere with the work of the rating agencies and Chapter 9 institutions, why are you then trying to prevent the release of the report on state capture? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, I am not sure whether, when I answered the question, the member was out of the House. I answered the question very clearly. If he was in the House, I have answered that question. Thank you.
Establishment of Presidential SOE Co-ordinating Council
3. Mr T C Motlashuping (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
(a) What are the advantages of establishing the Presidential State-Owned Enterprises Co-ordinating Council with a similar structure to the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission and (b) what role will it play in socioeconomic transformation? CO394E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, in 2010, I commissioned a review of all state-owned enterprises, SOEs, in South Africa through the Presidential Review Committee, PRC, on State-owned Entities, whose report was accepted by Cabinet in 2013.
Among other things, the committee recommended that an interministerial committee, IMC, on SOE reforms should be established as a precursor to the formation of the SOE Council of Ministers.
In 2015, I established the IMC on SOE reforms, chaired by the Deputy President, Cyril Ramaphosa. The IMC has recommended the setting up of an SOE council, to be chaired by the President. The council has not been established yet.
This was based on the recent successes in co-ordinating the work of various spheres of government. An example is our infrastructure programme, which is co-ordinated through the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC.
The PICC brings together Ministers, premiers, and executive mayors. This central co-ordination brought about by the PICC has improved our work and has enabled quicker consultation and decision-making and more efficient monitoring of progress. Government continues to work hard to find solutions to ensure that the SOEs function more efficiently and effectively. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Chair, I want to thank the hon President for the comprehensive answer that he has given. I am delighted by the fact that even before I make my follow-up question, I have seen many hands going up. It is very encouraging. [Interjections.]
Mr President, the SOEs play a crucial role in providing economic infrastructure. They provide vital services, products, and employment, as well as capacity-building. Successful SOEs will put South Africa at a competitive advantage. Given the underperformance of many SOEs, radical transformation could be the way to improve their performance. Improving the corporate governance of SOEs will go a long way to help in the roll-out of the National Development Plan.
My question, hon Hattingh, is: Despite all the misconceptions ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, you are addressing me and not the hon Hattingh! [Laughter.]
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Thank you and I withdraw that, Chair. Despite all the misconceptions that have been created, Mr President, in terms of government bailing them out, the primary function of these entities is to provide quality, efficient, and effective services to the people. Now my question is: Is it happening and is it biased towards rural areas, in particular, the North West province, with its rural nature? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, of course, the task of government is to ensure that the development and the economic activities take place everywhere in the country. There has been - I think, historically - and it is a usual thing, that developments tend to concentrate in urban areas.
We have been very conscious of that fact and that is why we established a department called the Department of Rural Development, because we wanted, specifically, to ensure that the rural areas are not left behind. Therefore, the work that is going to be done by these SOEs will certainly cover the rural areas, and that is guaranteed. In fact, we have been discussing that issue very extensively as to what more can be done to pay attention to the
rural areas, so that they are not left behind. That is uppermost in the mind of government. Thank you.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson and Mr President, which of the recommendations by the Presidential Review Committee on State-owned Enterprises has your government already implemented?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, they are quite numerous, and the one I am talking about is one of them. As I said, it comes from the recommendations of the committee that I set up. It is, actually, an example of what we are doing. There are many others and others have not necessarily been implemented. We are working on them. Partly because this particular committee is very crucial for ensuring that a number of those recommendations are implemented.
Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the hon President said this is one of the recommendations that are being implemented. I just want to read, from the report, the five recommendation points, of which I do not see any on infrastructure that he has mentioned:
Government should develop the long-term strategy for state-owned enterprises including the promulgation of a single State-owned Enterprises Governance Act that should apply to SOEs across government as a whole; there should be a standardisation of the appointment and remuneration processes for all SOEs, and the
standardisation of development and delivery goals; the role of SOEs in economic transformation, especially with respect to procurement deals, should be enhanced ...
... procurement should actually be the essence of restructuring because this is where all the fraud and things are going on ...
... there should be a re-examination of the finances of the SOEs to strike a better balance between equity and debt financing; and there should be a strengthening of the political accountability of Ministers over SOEs so as to ensure better line-function management.
So, Mr President, can you give us a clear indication: Which of the rest of these recommendations that you have referred to – and most probably been referred to the Ministers on the SOEs – have been implemented?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, in my answer, I said some have, and others have not been, and we are working on them. Part of the reason for the need for this council is precisely to deal with those matters. The council is going to ensure that these are co- ordinated and implemented by specific entities.
This council will be in charge, and it will be looking at all the recommendations to ensure that they are implemented in a co-
ordinated fashion. Because if we were to deal with them now, we would still be sending them to specific entities in silos. That is why it had become very important for this to be made – so that those recommendations are implemented as recommended. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity. Hon President, I’ll go easy!
South Africa has more than 700 nonstrategic, state-owned companies. One of the roles of state-owned companies is, of course, to contribute to the economy. Since the beginning of the Fifth Parliament, Mr President, you referred, in your state of the nation address, to the fact that state-owned companies will be evaluated and, of course, realigned.
In light of the projection of less than a 1% economic growth rate for the economy, when will you then, hon President, release a report on the implementation of this evaluation and realignment? Thank you, Chairperson.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, those are part of the recommendations that I talked about. Who must evaluate these SOEs? Can they evaluate themselves? I do not think so. Who must then evaluate them? The reason why this council, in the process of looking at how to implement all of this, has become an important recommendation is because it can sit and evaluate all of them.
Because the committee that evaluated and reported at the time reported on all of them.
We need a body that can sit and evaluate. This council is going to do proper evaluation. That is precisely the point. I am repeating it. I had answered this question before, but I am repeating it because I think the hon member deserves further emphasis and clarification. [Interjections.] Thank you.
Moving the seat of Parliament
4. Mr M Khawula (IFP) asked the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether, with reference to his 2016 state of the nation address to hold engagements and debates to move the seat of Parliament from Cape Town to Pretoria, the engagements and debates have started; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether such movement is still relevant; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO401E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I want to emphasise, first and foremost, that the decision to relocate Parliament from
Cape Town to Pretoria lies squarely within the ambit of Parliament. It is not a matter for the executive to decide upon. We have, however, expressed our views on the matter, given the advantages we think will accrue to the fiscus.
In preparation for engagement with Parliament, the Department of Public Works was tasked by Cabinet to further investigate the merits of relocation. An interdepartmental task team, comprising government departments that contribute to the optimal functioning of Parliament, was also constituted.
The task team comprises a few departments with specific tasks. The National Treasury is looking at financial and budgetary implications. The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is focusing on the legislative requirements and processes. The Department of Public Service and Administration is looking into the administrative and human capital implications. The Department of Transport is looking into the logistics and transport implications. The SA Police Service is looking into the security and safety implications, while the Department of Labour is investigating the human resources implications.
Importantly, the Department of Public Works, as the custodian of public infrastructure and an accommodation service department to Parliament, is also engaging with Parliament on a review of previous needs analyses and the space audits conducted in 2006 and 2007. Also
being looked at are the needs of Parliament, including the space requirements for residential accommodation for Members of Parliament, parliamentary office bearers and leaders, as well as administrative support staff.
An examination of the costs of upgrading the existing parliamentary precinct to meet the current space requirements and those of constructing a new parliamentary precinct in Pretoria is also being done.
Government is also examining the benefits and challenges that are likely to follow from changing of the seat of Parliament. This is informed by preliminary socioeconomic impact studies done by the Department of Public Works as part of normal feasibility studies done when considering state accommodation options.
The preliminary analysis continues to point to the same conclusions derived from previous studies in 1995, 1997, and 2011. These indicated that, over the long term, the cost to relocate the legislative authority from Cape Town to Pretoria would be significantly less than maintaining the status quo.
The negative impact includes the potential loss of income for the City of Cape Town and potential job losses in the finance and business sectors providing services to Parliament. There are also indications that, should the relocation to Pretoria be given effect,
a significant portion of the redundant, state-owned accommodation serving the parliamentary function could be appropriated by accommodating various other government departments.
Let me reiterate that the seat of the legislature is a call for Parliament to make. However, the executive will continue to provide support and information to persuade Parliament to consider the big expenditure item of maintaining two capitals. I thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, Nxamalala, mhlonishwa Mongameli [Hon Chairperson, Nxamalala, hon President] ...
... I am amazed that so much has already been done by the executive. I want to confess, Nxamalala, that neither the Speaker of the National Assembly nor the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces has taken us into their confidence and debates on the matters you have raised today. It’s news to us. It’s news to this House. It’s news to South Africa. It is just things that are happening there, in the executive.
I am going to hold the President to his opening and closing statements, in which he said that the decision rests with Parliament. It is just that Parliament does not know that the executive has already done so much.
Be that as it may, are these investigations that have been done previously ... I am referring to the one done by former President Mandela in 1997, the report of which was never released to the country ... I would like to know, hon President, what was said in the report about this issue. And I do not want to say ... because the President and the executive are advancing the arguments of cost- cutting and cost-saving measures on these issues.
Would it not be appropriate and logical to do first things first, hon President, for example, rooting out corruption, which, according to the Auditor-General, is costing South Africa no less than
R34 billion a year? And, for example, minimising the bloated Cabinet under the current President, which the President is also complaining about when he kick-starts these issues; for example, when Ministers buy vehicles, they should not spend excessively.
All these are logical issues that inform cost-cutting, and they are at a reachable distance. Now, we are talking about things that are so far-fetched. Would it not have been convincing in this debate, hon President, to have said we should start with the first things?
Lastly, can’t we consider the competing socioeconomic and other needs of our country? Would the President say these would have been a priority need of the country when all the other needs are put together on the table? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, you are usually very good at time management, but you have long overstepped.
Hon President, the hon Khawula has raised three issues, but he smuggled in the last two, and he knows that. Those are issues which you may, or may not, deal with.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chairperson. It is not very often that I have an opportunity to interact with your members and I am sure they love to hear me talking, but it is no problem at all. [Laughter.]
The issue here is not about every other issue that exists in the country. It is about the seat of Parliament. The executive — which really does move around more - has done research on this. The cost is huge and big. You can calculate it clearly. For example, you can look at what is happening currently: Each and every executive member has to have two houses, two cars, and many other things you can count because of the two capitals. However, if we were in one place, there would be one house and one car.
Travelling is also time consuming. The executive has to move up and down doing government work and cannot stay in one place. There has been a very scientific and detailed investigation, and there is one conclusion, and one conclusion only - that we need one particular seat of government.
There are many other things that have been considered, like the central location of Pretoria - or Tshwane. It is a fact that you, as Members of Parliament, are not able to engage the whole of society on Bills even if you have made provision for the public to discuss them with you because many poor people cannot travel to Cape Town.
It is very far. It is not at the centre of the country. It would, therefore, help Members of Parliament to interact with the population more quickly and more easily; not just those who have places in and the means to fly to Cape Town and have time to participate. So, there are many things that have been looked at.
The issue of corruption is discussed all the time and we are fighting corruption all the time. [Interjections.] It is not an issue that we thought we should come and deal with as a special issue, like the shifting of Parliament.
In fact, as you correctly said, hon Chair, the hon member was cleverly smuggling in some of the issues. It is fine. That is what politicians do; there is no problem about it, but that is not the matter we are talking about at the moment. We are talking about the possibility of shifting between these two places.
On the issue that the information was not brought here ... Well, the fact that the member has asked a question on the matter means he must know something about it. [Laughter.] Really, it cannot be that the matter is being debated for the first time when questions on the
matter are asked by this very House. It cannot be. Thank you very much.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, the report mentioned by the hon Khawula is, unfortunately, not the only one that the country is still waiting for to be released.
On two occasions, the President mentioned that it is not for the executive or for the President to make such a decision on where Parliament sits. That decision, according to the President — and I agree with him — is a decision for Parliament to make. Parliament has, to date, not yet discussed this matter. However, it does not fall within the jurisdiction of the executive to make such a decision. It is not the executive’s job.
The President, however, has gone on to indicate a number of mechanisms that the executive has put in place, such as research, reports, feasibility studies, and other things, that have, most probably, cost the country millions of rand, let alone how much it cost them in terms of the time spent on those tasks by civil servants. Those are acts outside of the jurisdiction of the executive.
Should Parliament eventually decide not to move the seat of Parliament from the DA-run municipality of Cape Town to the DA-run
municipality of Tshwane, would it then not come down to fruitless and wasteful expenditure? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chair, not at all. It would never be counted as wasteful expenditure and what the executive has done is to deal with matters that concern it. The executive is in charge of the fiscus of this country. Whether, or not, you have a parliament, the money must come from the Treasury.
The executive felt it was necessary to investigate how costly this process would be. One of the reasons that compelled the executive to undertake the research was to help Parliament to have facts before it so that it could take a well-considered decision. There is evidence - and no one else could do that, except the Treasury - to check whether we can’t use our resources better. You cannot say that is outside of the executive. It is the job of the executive.
So, I am just saying the hon member is missing the point. The point is clear. We have the information, and we have to investigate.
At the end, if you, as Parliament, were to take a decision that you should move to Pretoria, you would ask for the money from the executive. The executive must know whether the money would be available, or not. Therefore, the investigation helps you to take a wise decision. It is as simple as that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chairperson, it is so unfortunate that, when dealing with questions, we do not raise points of order. However, part of Rule 46 of the Rules of the House states that you cannot deliberately make a statement in the House which you know very well is false.
I can tell members that if they go to the Chairperson’s and Speaker’s Budget Vote debates for this year, they will find that we discussed the very same issue. So, the issue is already in Parliament. It is not true that we are hearing it for the first time. I wanted to correct that, firstly.
My question to you, hon President ... because ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): My question to you, hon President, is in relation to the form of engagement envisaged by the executive, even though we know that the issue is in Parliament.
Don’t you have any opinion about that form of engagement; and if possible, would you try to share with the House your opinion about the issues around timeframes? Because it was resolved in the past from that research that, in the long run, there is definitely going to be a cost benefit.
However, if you are looking at the current situation, you might lose the picture of the whole debate. So, I am interested in understanding your opinion around timeframes in that type of engagement that the issue is in Parliament. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, Chair, it would be very difficult for us to decide for Parliament and even to say what the timeframes are. I think the research that was done was shared with the relevant people.
I might say, from not necessarily a formal discussion, whatsoever, but we know that the feeling, particularly of the presiding officers, is that the space here is not big enough. This is one point that I am aware of. They want sufficient space. At the moment, they have to use other places because there is not enough space here.
I think, as Members of Parliament, you should be saying, here is the matter; and ask when you are going to discuss it and take a decision
- because the timeframes can only be made if a decision is taken. Then we know we are now implementing and can set the timeframes. So, it would be difficult to talk about the timeframes now when the matter has not been decided upon.
I think the executive is waiting for the decision. If the decision says, let us go, we are ready. And we can then work on the timeframes.
As far as we are concerned, given the fact that the economy is a very peculiar thing, the quicker the decision is taken, the better. Because the later it is taken, the more costly it will be. This is just a piece of advice. [Laughter.] Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, Mr President, South Africa is facing many socioeconomic challenges at the moment, one of which, education, is a high priority. With the National Developments Plan’s, NDP, guidelines on skills development and the need to create jobs and employment, will you give this House the undertaking that the settling of fees for higher education and basic education will be settled first and will be the first priority before we look at moving Parliament? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chair, I am not sure about this question. The other questions had some relevance. With this one, I am not very sure. Nevertheless, as I indicated, I love interacting with the members.
The issue of free education is being attended to. I am sure hon members know that when it started last year, I established a commission, which is working on it, and which has said that it will
report at a given time. It is important for us, because if we are to conclude that issue, it must be based on a very clear and scientific investigation. What is it that we need to do in order to achieve it?
In the process of this, because of the protests, I established a ministerial task team to interact with a number of stakeholders, and it has been doing so. Those issues are being dealt with.
Of necessity, we need to find a solution. We cannot not find a solution with regard to this matter. And we have raised our views about how the protests have been going on. We have really said that violence has no place in our democracy. We do not support it. We do support the fact that people have the right to protest, but that is also outlined in the law - that protests should be peaceful, not violent.
In a sense, we think that whoever is doing something, it must be something that makes good sense. For example, you cannot challenge people who are about to write examinations. The schools are about to close and will open again next year. By intensifying your protest now, you are actually not just doing one thing. You are also interrupting the process of education and examination, which then does not give a good sense that education is so important that you can want to delay it when you know the schools will reopen the following year.
However, we have not failed to deal with this matter. Last year, the protests were there, and we were able to say there would be no fee increases because we take education as a critical point. It is our Apex Priority and, indeed, we moved.
Even now ... and you can’t also say this is your demand and you will not stop until it is met. In life, you negotiate. You give and take. You consider many things and, as government, we are saying that is what we have been doing all the time. That is why we are engaging all stakeholders and we are sure that we will find a solution.
I just hope this is not going to interfere that much with education. I am happy that people are beginning to say, perhaps, writing exams could be concluded early next year because it is absolutely important that our young people are educated. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Mr President. I just want to get back to this issue: Mr Khawula, the hon Nyambi is correct that we have raised this matter in our parliamentary budget speeches.
Therefore, it cannot be true that you are saying I do not want to go back to the speeches. You may rise.
Mr M KHAWULA: I think the hon Chairperson, the hon President, and the hon Nyambi may have misunderstood me. I was referring to all the reports that the hon President has given to the House, not the matter itself. As I quoted in my question, the matter itself arises
from the state of the nation address, but all the other issues, like the reports mentioned today, are news to us.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. It is not true, hon Khawula. I do not like this interaction. Definitely, during Budget Vote 2: Parliament, both the Speaker and I sharply raised the issue of costs, of the lack of space, and of the possibility of looking at the relocation of Parliament to create all of this. And Parliament said that we need to be in charge of the matter. That is all I wanted to say.
We have not brought the matter up to Parliament, hon President, because we ourselves, as Parliament, actually sit on those committees. We don’t just sit, we lead, as Parliament, because it is our business, and when we have a report, hon members, we will bring it to Parliament.
Reappointment of SAA Chairperson
5. Ms B A Engelbrecht (DA) asked the President of the Republic:
Why has a certain person (name furnished) been reappointed as the Chairperson of South African Airways even though its losses for the 2014-15 financial year were sitting at R5,6 billion?
CO389E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, the reappointment of the South African Airways, SAA, board chairperson was approved by the Cabinet, it having considered all the relevant factors.
The chairperson works with the collective to achieve the goals set by the shareholder - which is government, represented by the Minister of Finance. South African Airways is being assisted by government to stabilise. Government is optimistic that the new collective appointed to the board will achieve the necessary turnaround that the company needs, guided by the shareholder, the Minister of Finance. I thank you.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, through you to Mr President, during Ms Dudu Myeni’s tenure as the SAA chairperson, the airline has stumbled from one crisis to another. It has not even published the annual financial statements, leading to Hong Kong threatening to deregister the airline, which would mean that SAA would no longer fly to Hong Kong.
However, in the state of the nation address this year, you remarked that for state-owned companies to contribute to the successful implementation of the National Development Plan, they must be financially sound and properly governed and managed. This is clearly not happening with the loss of R5,6 billion in the financial year of 2014-15. I therefore ask: To what financial extent will you allow
SAA to sink in order for it to be auctioned off, as no sensible investor will buy a technically bankrupt company?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, perhaps our view of the company is not necessarily the same. The hon member seems to be looking at selling the company. She is looking at the values so that the company must be sold where we can get something out of it. I am not looking at selling the company. I am looking at this company getting back to being a company that must be viable and must work. [Interjections.]
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: [Inaudible.] ... million in losses. How can that be viable?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Now, SAA has been in trouble all the time. It is not only in trouble today. It has been in trouble all the time.
If the hon member pays attention, she will remember that, at one point, we imported an American, who was said to be a specialist. He left it as it was. We have changed chief executive officers and chairpersons for a long time. What we are looking at is how to turn this company around, and we have the board that has been appointed to help turn the company around. Thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Chair, through you to the President: You mentioned in your response that said appointment was made by the Cabinet. However, as a matter of emphasis, I also want to say that the Cabinet was not just appointing, but that there were strict timelines attached to said appointment.
Would you concede, President, that also in the spirit and the intent of such an appointment, the fiduciary responsibility of the board rests around collective responsibility of the board and not a person; and it is meant to bring the board back to a financially sound space and to drive the developmental agenda of this country?
Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, definitely, I agree with the hon member. That is why the appointment of this board, in particular, paid attention to specific specialities and skills of members, who must therefore help the shareholder to ensure that this company is, indeed, turned around.
Members will recall that because of the problems that have been there all the time, the board had to be appointed so that it could begin to deal with the matters. Because had that decision not been taken by Cabinet, that was one of the matters that the rating agencies would have looked at.
Therefore, it was absolutely important that the board itself is sound and it has the kind of people that the Cabinet is satisfied will be able to do the work that they are required to do. So, I totally agree with you. Thank you very much.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon President: I thank you for the answer. I see and I hear that you reverted to the appointment of the board. The question was actually why the chairperson was reappointed for a period of one year.
In the select committee since the Fifth Parliament, we’ve received reports that it is approximately the eighth turnaround strategy of SAA. And in your answer today, you’ve also already said that it had to be done because they permanently have problems.
My question is, Mr President: With the state guarantees, SAA has to be declared as a going concern. Is the reason for keeping the going concern the appointment of the chairpersons as your friends, like in some of the other state-owned companies, or is it really in the interest of the country’s economy?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, the appointment of the board, including its chair, is in the interest of the company, nothing more. Thank you very much.
Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, I think it is important for the public to put the record straight. What had, in fact, happened is that, in the SAA report given to Parliament by the Treasury, in September of this year, SAA indicated a loss of R1,5 billion for the 2015-16 financial year. That is a major improvement from where we were in 2014-15.
Also, Mr Musa Zwane, the chief executive officer of SAA, then explained the reason for the R1,5 million, and he indicated in his report to Parliament that the biggest amount was actually spent on interest.
My question to the President is this: Can you assure the public that effective work is being done to ensure that SAA, like other SOEs, is turned around? Thank you, Chair.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, there has been a lot of work that has gone into SAA, with the full participation of the Treasury, to ensure that SAA turns around. I can assure you ... as you indicated, there has been an improvement, financially, over the period from very serious, deep kinds of financial problems.
The fact that you could see - and I think there were reports that were indicating the improvement - I am certain, sitting here, that SAA is going to do the effective work, particularly with the calibre
of the board members that have been appointed now. It is going to work, and we are looking at it very closely.
We are more hands on now, as government, than before. That is part of the reason that we moved SAA from its department and placed it under the Treasury – specifically, that it should be looked at with the eyes of a hawk in terms of the utilisation of the finances. So, I am confident that we are going to turn the corner very quickly.
Thank you.
Operation Phakisa
6. Mr L P M Nzimande (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
What progress has been made regarding Operation Phakisa in relation to its main objectives (details furnished)? CO395E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, Operation Phakisa is a methodology that helps us to deliver government programmes and projects faster and more efficiently. Major milestones are being attained towards achieving the aims of Operation Phakisa.
To date, delivery laboratories have been convened, focusing on the Oceans Economy; creating the Ideal Clinic in the health sector; promoting the use of information and communications technologies in education; enhancing growth in the mining sector; and advancing
growth in the environmental sector and tourism, as well as advancing growth in agriculture and agro-processing.
Since its inception in July 2014, the Oceans Economy component of Operation Phakisa has unlocked R17 billion in both public sector and private sector investments. The components of the Oceans Economy – Operation Phakisa are: maritime transport and manufacturing; offshore oil and gas exploration; aquaculture and marine protection services and governance; coastal and marine tourism; and small harbours development.
With respect to Operation Phakisa in the health sector, a total of
414 primary health care facilities have been transformed into Ideal Clinics, providing efficient, quality health care since implementation commenced in 2015. Our target is that by 2019, a total of 2 823 primary health care facilities should be Ideal Clinics.
On education, the aim is to make information and communications technology, ICT, a primary tool of teaching and learning. Since Operation Phakisa was launched in the basic education sector, an additional 2 430 schools have been connected.
The government’s vision is for all 24 000 public schools to be connected to the Internet. To date, 54% of schools have been connected. A key challenge remaining is the exorbitant cost of
broadband in our country. However, measures are being implemented to address this.
The report from the mining component of Operation Phakisa has been finalised and will be made public once approved by Cabinet, in the course of 2016. The implementation of the proposed initiatives will then commence in earnest.
A delivery lab on biodiversity was completed in May 2016. The aim of this lab was to enhance the economic potential of South Africa’s natural resources. The delivery lab on agriculture, land reform, and rural development is currently under way and will be completed by the end of 2016.
Government is firmly on course with the implementation of Operation Phakisa, and it has introduced a new way of implementing our programmes successfully. Thank you.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, we thank the hon President because the objective of our in asking this question has, indeed, been met. We wanted to get information on the progress of Operation Phakisa in as far as its being on course in assisting as part of many ways of enhancing our economy. And thank you very much for this comprehensive report that gives the account on what is happening in Operation Phakisa.
My small follow-up question, hon President, through you, hon Chairperson, is about the alignment of Operation Phakisa to the development plan - because we have the National Development Plan and the Nine-Point Plan - and whether, indeed, it does take cognisance of and work complementary to the National Developmental Plan and not just as a stand-alone entity that does not take cognisance of what the outcomes are that are contained in the National Development Plan, as well as the results that are expected from the Nine-Point Plan. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, yes, indeed, there is alignment with Operation Phakisa and the National Development Plan. What Operation Phakisa does is to bring the methodology of our implementation of our policies and programmes quickly so that we can deliver quicker. That is a serious element that it brings in, and we are, in other words, not creating any new animal.
We are looking at how we move quicker to implement the NDP and therefore, all the programmes that we are engaged in are in line with the projection of implementing the National Development Plan. So, they are aligned. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Engelbrecht?
Hon member, please identify yourself for the sake of the record.
Mr M S CHABALALA (Gauteng): It is member Kingsol Chabalala from Gauteng.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir.
Mr M S CHABALALA (Gauteng): Thank you, Chair. Mr President, scientific data and projections show that South Africa’s plans to develop the Oceans Economy face serious threat as a result of ocean acidification. It threatens food security, coastal defences, tourism, and recreational facilities. It, furthermore, threatens biodiversity and projects a decrease in fisheries and productions. It will have a severe impact on small and large fishing companies in South Africa. It would seem acidification is, indeed, a serious threat to Operation Phakisa and its goals to develop our Oceans Economy and create jobs.
Is the government aware of this threat; and if so, what are the plans in place to deal with acidification in our oceans, if any? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, the government is aware of the relationship between development and the preservation of nature. In fact, we are one of the leading countries in that aspect. Some of the existing species have only been saved in South Africa. We are very conscious of this, and that is why the Oceans Economy ... at
the head of it ... it is actually led by the Department of Environmental Affairs precisely to deal with that issue.
The reality is that the economy in the ocean is huge, in many ways. We are going to be able to save and preserve things that need to be preserved in the sea and develop the economy while looking after our nation, also in relation to interacting with other nations. So, we are very much aware of that. Actually, it is one of the uppermost things - that we cannot destroy our nature, which we have preserved for so long. So, whatever we do, we take that into account. Thank you very much.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am slightly concerned. May I request that the House at least consider, for the next Question session, for the hon President’s own convenience and to make it comfortable for him, that we, perhaps, organise a box of lozenges, or something? [Interjections.] He seems very uncomfortable. His throat seems very dry. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: What’s the point?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, that is not a point of
... Order!
An HON MEMBER: A box of what?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Mohapi! [Laughter.]
An HON MEMBER: Sweets for the throat. [Laughter.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Siyabulela, Mongameli, intle le nto uyibekayo, Mongameli. [Thank you, hon President, you are raising a good point.]
According to your reply, you say you have developed about 54% of the schools in Operation Phakisa, if I am correct. And then, you talk about ocean development. Now, the problem I have, President, is that when you talk about these developments, where do you place the rural people?
Xa uthetha ngolu phuhliso, ubabekaphi na abantu basezilalini? [When you talk about these developments, where do you place rural people?]
Because if you go to those rural schools and hospitals, there is no development and people are dying. If you talk about oceans, you are only talking about the Western Cape and the Northern Cape. What are you saying about the rural sections? The oceans of South Africa do not only end up here. At what stage will the rural areas be developed according to your Operation Phakisa? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, the rural areas are not ignored or put aside. The plan is to deal with the whole ocean, not only the ocean adjacent to urban areas. It is to deal with the
entire ocean. In fact, we are even looking at expanding small harbours in areas which are not, necessarily, urban areas.
So, they are taken into account, including the communities that live along the rural areas. They are part of Operation Phakisa. So, be content with the fact that they are not going to be left alone this time. They are going to be part of it, in terms of employment and activities around those areas. Thank you.
Mnu S G MTHIMUNYE: Sihlalo nakuwe Mongameli, sithokezela abantu baleya indawo yakwaNdebele. Sikubonile uyayirhabisa indaba yokwakhiwa kwesiporo sesitimela ngendaweni yeMoloto ngaphasi kwehlelo le-Moloto Corridor.
Engikubawako, Mongameli, kukobana sibalekele indaba yokuthi abantu banonde bakhwela basehla iinthuthi baya ePitori ngamalanga ngokuthi sithuthukise umnotho waleya indawo.
Umbuzo wami ngilo: Kungabakhona umraro, Mongameli nesiGungu sakho, lokha nange indawo leya ingamenyezelwa njengendawo ekhethekileko yokuthuthukiswa komnotho ukwenzela kobana abantu bahlomule ngokuthi bathome amarhwebo lapha bahlala khona ukukhandela bona bangasoloko basehla benyuka phakathi kwendawo leya yakwaNdebele nePitori? (Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)
[Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson and hon President, we are very thankful for what you are doing for the people of KwaNdebele. We take note that you are speeding up the process for the construction of the railway line in the Moloto area under the Moloto Corridor.
What I ask, hon President, is that we should avoid a situation whereby people will move from one mode of transport to another to get to and from work in Pretoria every day, and to promote the economy of that area.
My question is: Would it be a problem, hon President and your executive, if that area is announced as a Special Economic Zone? This should make the area economically viable, which will empower people of the area and allow them to benefit by starting businesses. This, in turn, will make them stay in the area, which will prevent a situation whereby they get on and off different modes of transport going up and down between the KwaNdebele area and Pretoria.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, thank God the question was like that. I thought the hon member was asking, since I was talking about the Oceans Economy, if I could create an ocean in KwaNdebele! [Laughter.]
Thank you very much for the question. I think that is the intention of the government with the Moloto Corridor. It is not just to open up the corridor in terms of the road and rail, but it is also to
make it economically viable. As to the declaration of it as a Special Economic Zone, that is a matter, I think, we can raise and talk about.
At the moment, we are looking at development. Developing it would be part of the economy - and it could succeed. And, I think, it will succeed because it going to enable the people of the Moloto area to be accessible to those who can invest, and so on. So, I think once it is developing, perhaps its declaration, or a special kind of option, could be made. And, I think, as the people who are living there, you have the right to make proposals as well, particularly the businesspeople. However, rest assured, it is certainly going to develop economically. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Mr President.
Hon members, this concludes our questions. However, before we conclude, hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, the House Rules allow for four supplementary questions, not five. There are a number of members who raised their hands. At one point, there were six members to one question, and I had to make the decision to try and spread it across the different parties. Where it is not possible, I allow one party to dominate a question, but where possible, I allow other parties to be represented. And that is what has happened, ma’am.
Now, hon members, earlier on, as we began our business, the Rules of the NCOP were called to order. It is true, hon President, that in terms of our Rules, you are not obliged to come into this House to answer questions. However, we are grateful, because my predecessor said that, when you became President, you volunteered. And therefore, we set the precedent of a President who is willing to come into this House and answer questions. [Applause.]
I am making this point, hon members, because, just because there is no Rule that states it, it does not mean that the people of the provinces that you, as this House, represent are not interested in the head of state coming to this House and giving account.
Therefore, we are very happy, Mr President, that you availed yourself of your time to come and spend this afternoon taking questions in the NCOP.
Hon members, we must also, as NCOP members and our special delegates, never misdirect ourselves. The Rules of this House do permit us to ask members to behave; to ask members to excuse themselves from the House. The Rules do permit us to ask you to be removed.
I just wanted to correct the impression that the NCOP does not have the right or the authority to remove any member. If members want to go and check, they will know that any Usher or Serjeant-at-arms in any parliament across the world can actually carry you out,
physically, and throw you out. In other parliaments, they can go and throw you in the cells.
So, we never misdirect ourselves in this House. We know exactly what we need to do and how to do it. It would be a very sad day if we continued to think that every time we misdirected ourselves, we could run to the courts.
So, I wanted to say to the President, thank you very much, sir, for coming.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
The Council adjourned at 15:57.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
Please click on the following link to access the relevant Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports for this day.
https://www.parliament.gov.za/parliamentary-papers?sorts[date]=-1
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