Hansard: EPC: Debate on Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 21 May 2015
No summary available.
EPC – NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 21 May 2015 Take: 50
THURSDAY, 21 MAY 2015
PROCEEDINGS OF THE EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the National Assembly Chamber at 14:00.
House Chairperson, Ms A T Didiza, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! On behalf of the Minister of Water and Sanitation and her Deputy Minister, we would like to welcome the Minister’s guests in the gallery and our visitors. Since you are now in the House, you are also the guests of the National Assembly and the Extended Public Committee on Water and Sanitation.
There are a few house-keeping rules about how you conduct yourself in the gallery that I think I need to tell you about. You are not supposed to clap hands when something exciting is said by the Minister, Deputy Minister or any of the members. You are also not supposed to interject if there is something that irritates you in one way or another. You just have to sit there, appreciate and allow the debate to continue.
THE MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
Debate on Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation:
THE MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon House Chair, hon Chairperson of the portfolio committee and members of the portfolio committee, our Deputy Minister of Water and Sanitation and other Deputy Ministers present, Cabinet colleagues, hon Members of Parliament, Inkosi Sbonelo Mkhize and the representatives of our King Zwelithini, chairpersons and chief executives, CEs, of water boards and other water sector entities, honoured guests, ladies and gentlemen, 60 years ago, the people of South Africa from all walks of life gathered in Kliptown to adopt the Freedom Charter, a document that pronounced that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people. This august body can, indeed, now attest that the will of the people has been achieved through the democratic process. Hence, we are gathered here today.
A year ago, in pursuit of the ideals enshrined in the Freedom Charter, the National Development Plan, NDP, was adopted as a programme that has to take South Africa forward towards radical socioeconomic transformation.
In the vision statement, the NDP recounts the story of the journey the country would have travelled by 2030. The eloquence of the story is not only captured in the pain, anguish, exhilaration and triumphs of the journey, but also in the poetic execution thereof. In part, it says and I quote:
We have received the mixed legacy of inequalities in opportunity and in where we have lived, but we have agreed to change our narrative of conquest, oppression and resistance and victory.
We felt our way towards a new sense of
- Trying, succeeding and making mistakes
- Proclaiming success and closing our
minds to failure
- Feeling orientated and disorientated
through our own actions
- Affirming some realities and denying
- Proclaiming openness to the world, yet
- Eager to live together, yet finding it
difficult to recognise shared burdens
- Learning to recognise and acknowledge
Our new story is open ended with temporary
destinations, only for new paths to open up
It is a story of unfolding learning.
Even when we flounder, we remain hopeful.
In this story, we always arrive and depart.
We have come some way.
In the quest for giving impetus to the NDP, the fifth administration of the democratic dispensation found it befitting to establish a new Department of Water and Sanitation, to ensure that the ideals of the Freedom Charter are realised, especially clause 9, that says ``There shall be houses, security and comfort!’’
In this regard, ``houses’’ speak to the issue of integrated and sustainable human settlements, progressive spatial development and the building of strong local government. ``Security’’ addresses the issues related to food security, public safety and living free from discrimination. And, lastly, ``comfort’’ speaks to the absence of conflicts, access to water and sanitation as well as access to equal opportunities, inclusion and redress.
As guided by the NDP, the ANC manifestoand the second National Water Resource Strategy, we will continue to apply a seamless integrated approach to managing our water resources. This is a co-ordinated approach that is interdependent onand interrelated to all other departments at national level and other spheres of government, the private sector, civil society and our people in general.
Since our last address on the Budget Vote, the department has worked closely with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the National Treasury to develop the Back to Basics Programme, to address challenges faced by local government, strengthening municipalities and instilling a sense of urgency towards improving citizens’ lives. Clear benchmarks of acceptable performance have been set in an effort to ensure that all municipalities perform their basic responsibilities consistently and without fail.
Whilst the Back to Basics Programme is focused on 27 district municipalities, I will highlight some of the interventions we have made so far.
The department has been tasked by the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission to intervene where there is critical failure by local government to deliver water services. We were working in partnership with the Department of Human Settlements and the local government. These interventions will be on a case-by-case basis, in accordance with legislation, in order to safeguard the wellbeing of our communities.
In partnership with the provincial governments of the Eastern Cape and North West, we have intervened in municipalities that have been placed under administration in the Makana Local Municipality in the Eastern Cape and the Madibeng Local Municipality and Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality in North West.
An important element of these interventions has been the successful use of the water boards of Amatola, Magalies, and Sedibeng, respectively, to supplement the capacity of local government, to improve operational performance and build new infrastructure where necessary.
In Limpopo, Lepelle Northern Water has been appointed by our department as an implementing agent for the Mopani District Municipality revitalisation programme, which includes various water treatment works, waste water treatment works, boreholes and pipelines.
In Bushbuckridge, Mpumalanga, through Rand Water, we executed an emergency intervention to solve operational problems which were causing water shortages, but now we are rolling out interventions throughout Bushbuckridge, block by block, to ensure that we do away with the development of the old order of KwaNdebele.
In each of the identified municipalities, qualified and experienced personnel are being deployed to work and implement a road map for a water-secure and safe sanitation future, using budgets pooled from national government, provincial governments and from the affected local authorities.
We continue to search for solutions to better the lives of our communities, especially that of the women. In this regard, I’m pleased to announce that we have intervened in places like KwaMhlaba’Uyalingana, for example, to ensure that uMaDlaminino longer shares water with animals or walks barefoot and pregnant to fetch water in the river, and also to ensure that she enjoys the water from the Jozini Dam next to her village, after a whopping 30 years of the existence of the dam. [Applause.] This is part of the process of turning single-purposed dams into multipurposed dams across the country. We have noted that there exists a persistent threat to our infrastructure as a result of vandalism and criminality. We continue to take steps to protect our water and sanitation infrastructure to ensure continued delivery of services. We are working with the law enforcement agencies to deal with these issues and we are also making interventions to provide adequate infrastructure, as compared to those who have been acquiring tenders through water tanks.
With regard to the water and sanitation revolution, as we move forward to improve the delivery of services to our people, we shall pursue the following strategic priorities: water resource management, water infrastructure development, water and sanitation services, and the exercise of regulatory and policy responsibilities.
In order to achieve these strategic priorities, we have realised that there is a need for increased impetus and pace. This calls for a revolution, a water and sanitation revolution, to reclaim and better manage our water, in order to tackle the triple challenges of inequality, poverty and unemployment. The key pillars of this revolution are water conservation and demand management, improving the water mix, transforming the water sector and including those who have been previously disadvantaged in terms of access and business opportunities.
The first pillar of water conservation and demand management will involve the use of innovation and regulation to reclaim the water that is already developed and available for use.
We shall work with all stakeholders to implement water conservation measures to effect a paradigm shift in the way society treats this scarce resource.
We shall seek to move our sanitation systems from highly wasteful water-borne sewerage to low-water and no-water solutions. In these efforts, together with the Department of Human Settlements, we shall collaborate with agencies, such as the National Home Builders Registration Council, to review regulations to reduce the size of toilet cisterns. These innovations can serve to promote new industries and economic opportunities. That also includes retrofitting in some of the established communities.
There is a need for a systems change, as we move from highly centralised, expensive wastewater treatment dominance to one that has a combination of centralised and localised waste treatment.
It is necessary for a movement from high-energy waste treatment and technologies to low-energy using and actual energy producing waste treatment systems.
The second pillar of improving the water mix involves the increased use of a variety of water sources, in addition to our current reliance on surface water.
The third and last pillar is transformation through ensuring that we improve the capacity of the state to better license the use of water.
We plan transformation by attracting and developing the skills required in the sector, as well as through the transfer of skills and knowledge, as we are doing with our own comrades from Cuba through our Knowledge and Skills Transfer project.
We will focus on being much more people-centered and support new ideas arising from the Young Smart Mindz initiative at the Innovation Hub in Tshwane, such as those of Paseka Moemise Lesolang’s, a young man under 35, who has come up with an alternative solution for retrofitting cisterns to reduce the amount of water used for flushing. He is one of our guests here today. [Applause.]These initiatives will be carried out in programmes and projects, which will be implemented throughout the financial year.
Today, the Department of Water and Sanitation presents a budget of R16 billion. The breakdown of this budget per programme is as follows: An amount of R1,5 billion for administration; R808 million for water planning; R12,4 billion for water infrastructure development; R1,5 billion for water and sanitation services, and R232 million for water sector regulation.
On the other hand, the Municipal Water Infrastructure Grant has been given funding to the tune of R2,6 billion; the Accelerated Community Infrastructure Programme has been given R254 million; and the Regional Bulk Infrastructure Programme has been allocated a whopping R6 billion that will seek to deal with the 27 priority district municipalities, such as the sewer networkin Sebokeng, Pilanesburg in the North West, Bushbuckridge in Mpumalanga, Syferfontein and Lion’s Park in Gauteng.
The Water Services Operating Subsidy has an amount of R612 million and the Water Services Projects has an amount of R210 million allocated to each respectively.
In doing all the necessary forward strategic planning for the comprehensive management of our water resources, we shall prioritise the review and implementation of the National Water Resource Strategy 2.
Accordingly, the following are the sub-programmes that receive priority: the National Integrated Water Information System; water allocation reform and the validation and verification of the current licenses; and water use licensing.
We are also committed to effective planning and regulation in the sector. We continue to plan and conduct feasibility studies. We have initiated a project to review and optimise water resources monitoring. We are also reviewing and rationalising the water institutions and the structure of the department in line with the new mandate as per the NDP.
On sanitation, we will revise the industry norms and standards for sanitation. We have completed our National Water Amendment Act, Act 27 of 2014.
The revision of the water pricing strategy is essential to address the socioeconomic needs of the country and essential for equity across the water value chain.
We have also, in the meantime, gazetted regulations on the metering of water for irrigation purposes for public comment and we will work in consultation with the Department of Agriculture on this.
Beyond the above, with regard to water resource management and regulatory activities, the department continues to build and support the building of new infrastructure.
The raising of the Clanwilliam Dam wall in the Western Cape, at a projected cost of R2,4 billion, has already commenced and is due for completion in 2018.
In KwaZulu-Natal’s Mdloti River Development Project, the Hazelmere Dam wall will be raised at a cost of R528 million to deal with the water pressure in the eThekwini and iLembe District Municipalities.
In Limpopo, we will focus on the Groot Letaba River Water Development Project as well as the Luvuvhu River Government Water Scheme that is now being commissioned in stages to supply approximately 800 000 people in 380 communities in Limpopo.
We are also working with the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority, TCTA, to fund many of our projects and among them is the acid mine drainage re-use project in Gauteng. We are ready to move on with this project. Construction of the next phase in the Eastern Basin is due to commence during 2015, by not later than July this year.
In regard to the Mzimvubu River basin, we are already moving to establish an interagency programme management office. Preliminary estimates indicate that the project will cost R20 billion. What is of importance is us making sure that this project is people-centred and people-driven. We are making sure that all sectors in the Eastern Cape participate in this project.
Phase 2 of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project commenced in December 2014. We seek to create opportunities for both the people of Lesotho and the people of South Africa.
With regard to sanitation, in our quest to address the sanitation backlog, our priority is to complete the eradication of the use of bucket toilets by December 2015. We will focus on the formal townships that still have bucket toilets.
We can proudly indicate here that, in the last financial year, we eradicated 20 560 bucket toilets. [Applause.] In this financial year, we will deal with the remaining bucket toilets that will be eradicated at a cost of R975 million.
We are focusing on rural household infrastructure that will also assist us in delivering an additional 11 000 units in this new financial year.
We are committed to sustainable management of water infrastructure. Dam rehabilitation is quite important and, in this financial year, we are looking at the rehabilitation of 44 dams as part of water security in South Africa.
As a country, we are part of the family of nations. As the world will be assembling at the United Nations General Assembly, South Africa can proudly indicate that we have already met the Millennium Development Goals and exceeded the targets on water. [Applause.] We have actually reached 88,3% on that and,in respect of sanitation, we have reached 78% coverage. What is important is to deal with the difference and ensure sustainability in the areas where we have delivered.
In conclusion, I want to take this opportunity and acknowledge the role that our councillors have played in ensuring that we really drive the work done by the department. [Applause.]
In eThekweni, we came across CouncillorVusumuzi Gebashe, in Inanda Ward 55. On our arrival, we all thought ... [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, on a point of order. I rise in terms of Rule 62. Rule 62 says that a member must, as far as possible, not read a speech and ... [Interjections.] ... refer to the speech as notes. Speak to us without reading a speech ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, can you take your seat. I have noted the point you are raising, but Minister, continue reading your speech. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you very much for giving me a pause.
Hon members, we arrived there and we saw Councillor Vusumuzi Gebashe. Praises were given to him for the good work he has done to provide sustainable sanitation solutions in the community. We can therefore attest that there are good men and women at local government who represent our people. [Applause.]
There is also a good example of how we are transforming this sector. At another site in Newlands, we came across a lady chemical engineer, Lungi Zuma. I know you will be very excited. She led a team of scientists from various countries on the continent and Europe that explore alternative sanitation technologies, as part of creating new solutions and industries.
Madibeng - I will beat all the problems -as we speak today, is the only district municipality where we have the community water forums being established. Because of the challenges, the community has found it necessary to work together with government in finding sustainable solutions. Gratitude goes to the community of Madibeng. [Applause.]
Lastly, allow me to thank members of the portfolio committee who have also been exercising serious oversight over the work of the department.
I want to thank our Deputy Minister, the hon chair of the committee, the director-general and senior management and other members of the Water and Sanitation family, including our entities.
As we move South Africa forward, let us recall the words of the founding father of our democracy, Nelson Mandela, in a document titled ``Why Advocate for Water, Sanitation and Hygiene?’’ where he said, and I quote,``Sanitation is more important than independence.’’ There is no substitute for water. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M JOHNSON
THE MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
Mr M JOHNSON: Igama lamadoda! [Kwahlekwa.] [The name of men!] [Laughter.]]
Comrades, colleagues, our esteemed guests and fellow South Africans, South Africa drinks water from the tap.We say that because South Africa is distinct from the so-called First World where you are told that you cannot drink water from the tap.
I rise in support of more programmes on behalf of the ANC, the people’s movement, in support of this Budget Vote 36 allocation to the Department of Water and Sanitation in order to create more opportunities for our people who drink water from the tap and provide more decent sanitation for our people.
We support this Budget Vote because the people of South Africa discovered that, when we conducted our very first census as a democratic country in 1996, it was revealed that some 40% of South Africans had access to safe drinking water. Through their movement, the ANC, which worked hard to be where we are today, we have achieved 83% which surpasses the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goals of 50% by 2015. [Applause.] In the same period, the people of South Africa discovered that a mere 40% had decent sanitation in 1996. A lot of work had to be done to achieve 78% by 2014. Again, this goes beyond the expected 50% in terms of the United Nations Millennium Development Goals, UNMDG, targets.
As we support this Budget Vote 36, we do so with humility. Once again, we urge the Department of Water and Sanitation to do more with less. Working together with other departments we can do so much more when collaborating.
Fellow South Africans, against this background, anyone in his or her right mind who objects to such noble ideals must seriously interrogate his or her party’s intentions and mission of advancing change in the lives of ordinary people of South Africa.
His Excellency President J G Zuma, in his state of the nation address in February this year, affirmed water as a critical resource for economic growth and better life. In line with his assertion, the overall Budget Vote increased from R12 billion in 2014-15 to R16 billion. This therefore reflects a real increase of more than 20%.
This increase reflects the seriousness which our ANC-led government accords to water and sanitation service delivery. In order to further deliver water services to our people, we need appropriate legislation that is in keeping with section 27(1)(b) of our Constitution of the Republic, effectively declaring water a human right.
Fellow South Africans, much as we drink water from the tap and even given the fact that we have made significant strides in turning the tide, we still remain with the challenges that impede our people from accessing water in some parts of South Africa and decent sanitation. These include lack of law enforcement for those who break the law by vandalising and stealing copper from our infrastructure.Alongside that is the stealing of water by established businesses.There are also delays in issuing water use licenses. A case in point in this instance is the comment I received from Noni Mokose from Gauteng. She is the 2009 female farmer of the year, who is expanding into another 70 hectares by ploughing potatoes and requires more water rights. There is poor implementation of broader water resources policies; delays in investment in water infrastructure and maintenance of such, and the erosion of institutional memory in the water sector, along with the loss of experienced water engineers and scientists.
Director-General, as we have seen a number of service delivery protests in the country, it becomes critically important that your department establishes a visible rapid response unit that responds and deals proactively with water and sanitation related challenges before they reach protest stages. Ordinary South Africans must be able to call a toll-free number to report leakages, no water supply, vandalism and theft of our infrastructure.
Minister and Deputy Minister, I am pleased to learn that through this Budget Vote, a number of job opportunities will be created. To mention just a few, around 40 graduates from the department’s Learning Academy will be placed into candidate engineer positions in the medium-term. [Applause.]
These graduates are young people from rural areas who will be placed back into their respective municipalities to beef up the needy skills and the department’s regional offices to speed up water service delivery to our people.
Compatriots, a conscious move to promote black industrialists through this Budget Vote must be part of our daily work experience in the area of manufacturing of chemicals, pipes and cement, among others. Twenty-one years since 1994, South Africa still does not have a single black chemical, pipe or cement manufacturer, as our infrastructure programmes demand of such products.
The department has a duty within this financial year to take the cue from President Zuma’s comment in his state of the nation address this year, to``set aside 30% of goods to be procured by government must be done through small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs.’’ Together with the National Treasury and Trade and Industry, the department must collaboratively come up with a concrete resolution that changes the 90/10 supply chain split that typically favours price above all other variables. This split continues to work against the very objects of our radical economic transformation and it must change within this financial year. This is a service delivery-oriented Budget Vote.
Fellow South Africans, we are Africans first. Our committee is therefore delighted to see a number of international strategic partnerships that are already established and are to be established and, to some extent, maintained through this Budget Vote. These strategic partnerships are very important to our Republic since we heavily rely on trans-boundary waters or shared water resources such as the Limpopo River shared with Botswana, Zimbabwe and Mozambique; Inkomati River shared with Swaziland and Mozambique; Orange–Senqu River shared with Lesotho, Botswana and Namibia, and Maputo-Usuthu Pongolo River shared with Swaziland and Mozambique. These partnerships will ensure that our water supply is secure and our economic development is sustainable.
It is common knowledge that water is life and sanitation is dignity. We are delighted therefore to learn that 32 500 bucket systems will be eradicated in the formal dwellings in this financial year.
In addition, 11 000 inhuman sanitation systems will be replaced with decent sanitation in 26 000 rural households. Give credit where credit is due. [Applause.]
Asinawo umona, asinayo inzondo, asinalo uchuku, sidumisa nje igama likaKhongolose nemisebenzi yakhe emihle. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [We are not jealous; we do not hold grudges; we are not being petty; we are just praising the ANC and its good deeds.] [Applause.]
Allow me again to refer to the state of the nation address of 2015 wherein his Excellency President Zuma urged all in the country to conserve water because the country is losing almost R7 billion per annum due to water losses. Director–General, to mention one, among others, is the insufficient funding for various programmes. For example the learning academy could produce more students given additional funding. As a committee, we therefore support any committee initiative that is geared towards improving the funding for this Budget Vote.
Doing more with less is the way to go, Director-General. Creation of economies of scale will take us further, if we bring together your SA Association of Water Utilities, SAAWU, Academy Initiative, now operated by Rand Water, the energy and watersectoreducation and training authorities, Water Research Commission and other institutions, both public and private.
I therefore conclude this Budget Vote debate comments by progressively linking the targets set out in the state of the nation address, National Development Plan, annual performance plan, strategic plan and the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.
Fellow South Africans, I would not have done my job entirely if I had not told the truths as they are in this august House.In opposing such a progressive budget, some of us, friends of the natives, continue with the work started by your predecessors in the name of Judge Leon, father of the father of the DA, Tony Leon, who not only judged over the ultimate hanging of Solomon Mahlangu in 1979... [Interjections.] Judge Leon continued on to hang Andrew Zondo in 1986. I thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA
Mr M JOHNSON
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA: Sihlalo, mandiqale ngomama wethu, uMompati, owasikhulisayo ... [Uwelewele.] ndithi makalale ngoxolo. Silapha nje kungenxa yokuthanda kwakhe uluntu lonke ... [Chairperson, let me start with our mother, Mompati, who groomed us ... [Interjections.] She must rest in peace. We are here because of her love for all the people ...]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!Can you please lower your voices so that the speaker at the podium can be heard.
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA: ... ingakumbi amakhosikazi. [... especially women.]
Hon Chairperson, over a few months I have travelled the country, speaking to and listening to the plight of communities who are affected by the worst living conditions. What I witnessed is despicable.
Umbutho i-DA, awuyifuni le nto enisoloko niyithetha kuba loo nto ayithethi ukuba azikho iingxaki nalapha kweli iphondo, nangona lingungqaphambili kwiinkonzo zoluntu. Ndihambile ndazibona iimeko ezibuhlungu zabantu abangenawo amanzi kunye nezindlu zangasese. Sifuna ke yaziwe le nto Sihlalo ngenxa yokuba... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The DA has had enough of the same repertoire being made as it does not necessarily mean that there are no challenges in this province as much as it is leading as far as service delivery is concerned. I travelled around and saw the plight of the people who do not have water and toilets. We therefore, Chairperson, want this to be acknowledged, because ...]
...taps are running dry, water is polluted, sewage runs through homes and streets in many communities. We ask ourselves the question: Is it really fair for...
... abantu bethu? [... our people?]
No!Is this freedom? No! Are these the opportunities that we would create for them? Definitely, not.
Yiyo loo nto ke sincokola nesizwe sonke... [That is why we are having dialogues with the whole nation ...]
...through our shared values, freedom, opportunity and, of course, fairness.
Mkhulu umsebenzi ekusafuneka wenziwe ngamaphondo kwakunye neli lethu esiliphethe ngobunono nakakuhle. INtshona Koloni ingungqaphambili kodwa kufuneka nathi sisebenzile. [Uwelewele.] [There is a lot that still needs to be done by the provinces, including our province that we manage with care and fairness. The Western Cape is leading but we also need to do more. [Interjections.]]
Last year, in a parliamentary reply the Minister revealed that Mangaung’s informal settlements still contain over 24 000 self-dug unventilated pit toilets. Nelson Mandela Bay Metro’s informal ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!Can we please speak a bit softer so that we can hear one another.
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA: Nelson Mandela Bay Metro’s informal settlements still contain over 20 000 bucket toilets and parachuting poor Danny Jordaan into the mayor’s seat will not erase years of mismanagement and failure in that metro. [Applause.]
This means that this Budget Vote contains some ambitious targets in relation to sanitation, which the DA will be monitoring closely. The government’s initial target was to eradicate bucket toilets in informal areas by March 2014.
Kusenjalo eBuffalo City, eKakamas, eBushbuckridge nase-Amathole District Municipality, sithi ke makhe kukhawulezwe kusiwe iinkonzo ebantwini. Ndibulela usihlalo wekomiti, uBawo uLulu Johnson, ngenkathalo nenkuthazo athe gqolo esinika yona singamalungu ale komiti. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[It is still the same in Buffalo City, Kakamas, Bushbuckridge and Amathole District Municipality. We are saying that service delivery must be sped up. I thank the chairperson of the committee, the hon Lulu Johnson, for his care and encouragement given to us as members of this committee.]
Only a DA government can restore the dignity of our people through the delivery of excellent services. [Interjections.]
Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo. [Thank you, Chairperson.][Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order!
Nksz M S KHAWULA
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngibingelela bonke, kanye nalaba abangapha abathethayo, ewu kunzima! Okokuqala bengithi ngisho ukuthi yihlazo leli, bukani nje nihlezi niyakhuluma kepha ezifundazweni eziyisishiyagalombili abantu ... [Ubuwelewele.]
Okokuqala njengeqembu le-EFF asihambisani nalesi Sabelomali ngoba okokuqala asibasizi abantu bakithi baseNingizimu Afrika abasahluphekayo. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, I greet everyone including those who are shouting on this side that it is hard! Firstly I wanted to state that it is a shame that you are just talking and sitting, yet in eight provinces people... [Interjections.]
Firstly, as EFF members we do not support the Budget Vote because it does not help people from South Africa who are still poor. [Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order! Order! Can we please listen to the hon member!
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Abantu baseNingizimu Afrika abanikwa nhlonipho nesithunzi yilo hulumeni kaKhongolose ukuze bathole intuthuko ngendlela efanele. Kumanje lapha kuWadi 19, 10 no-4 Esidumbini abantu abanamanzi emakhaya ompompi bomile akukho ngisho ithonsi; izingane azinamanzi ngisho okuphuza esikoleni, izindlu zangasese zikude nesikole futhi zingcolile ngale eMaqokomela Primary School. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: People of South Africa do not get the respect and the dignity from the ANC government in order for them to get services in the manner they are supposed to. While we are debating here, in wards 19, 10 and 4 at Esidumbini, people do not have water in their homes. Taps are dry and children do not even have water to drink at school. At Maqokomela Primary School, the toilets are far from the school and they are dirty. [Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order! Ma’m Khawula, can you please take a seat. Hon member, what is the point of order?
Nks N N MAFU: Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo. Phantsi koMthetho ongunombolo 62, ndiyamcela torhwana ukuba obekekileyo uMam’ Khawula angafundi kuloko athethe nje. [Kwahlekwa.] [As required by Rule 62, can hon Ma’am Khawula please stop reading and instead speak from the heart. [Laughter.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mafu, I have heard you but can I please allow Ma’m Khawula to proceed. [Interjections.] Order! Hon Ndlozi. Can you take your seat, Ma’m Khawula.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, no, hon Chairperson. We must not allow ignorance to flourish in the House. [Interjections.] Chairperson, may I address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, address me on what point?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: On Rule 62, hon Chair. The hon member is misleading the House. Rule 62 does not say that members should not read. [Interjections.] It says they ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, Rule 62 does not say they must not read. It says that they must not only read, but must read to refer to the notes. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Ma’m Khawula showed you a picture, addressed you ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Ndlozi! Hon Ndlozi, can you take your seat! [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, can you protect the speaker who is at the podium!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Hon members! Ma’m Khawula, can you take your seat.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I think all the members know the Rules and, if not, they can refer to them again. But, really, I think we need to offer one another respect. You know, across-the-floor communication is okay but it must not drown out the speaker. Can we allow Ma’m Khawula to proceed.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngizocela ukuthi ungibuyisele amaminithi ami. [Uhleko.] [Chairperson, would you please give back my minutes. [Laughter.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): We did not take your minutes, Ma’am; we stopped the watch.
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Uma kwenzeka efika amanzi emakhaya, ihlazo nento enzima ukuthi izinqola lezi ezibizwa ngama-waterkani ikakhulukazi kuMasipala waseLembe uletha amathangi ebusuku ngehora le-12. Okubuhlungu ngombuzo wami ukuthi omama laba benze kanjani? Okwesibili, into eyenziwa yilo Masipala waseLembe ebantwini basemakhaya ukuthi imigwaqo ayikho eduze. Lo masipala akamemezeli atshele abantu ukuthi beze nemiphongolo yabo yena uvele afike ngaloyo-12 ngemuva kwalokho useyahamba uzozibonela ongawatholile lawo manzi afika kanye. Ngebhadi angikhulumi indaba engiyizwile kodwa ngikhuluma ngento engiyibonayo. [Ihlombe.]
Nale ndaba yabantu abahlala laphayana emakhaya nabo bekufuneka ukuthi banikwe isithunzi ngoba bangabantu baseNingizimu Afrika abavotayo, intuthuko bayayidinga futhi uma beyidinga le nthutuko akuyekwe ukuthi uma ifika bese iyasefwa ukuthi le iya emadolobhedi bese le iya emakhaya ngoba nabo ngabantu nabo bayavota. Ngqongqoshe, ngizobuyela kuwena ngoKhansela uDumushwe waseWadi 55, uGebashe. Yihlazo leli engizolisho phambi kwakho mhlawumbe usihlalo wekomidi uyazi ngoba ngihlezi ngikhala. Lesi sikhalazo sami ngiphinde ngasibhala la phansi, akenzi lutho, abantu baze bashaya nemashi. Mina bengicela ukuthi ake niyeke ukulalela amaKhansela nike nizwe ngabantu bakaKhongolose abathi bona banisekela ngoba abantu bayanivotela. (Translation in isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: It is a shame that the water-tankers, especially at the iLembe Municipality, deliver water at around 12 midnight. What is sad with regard to my question is how do women do it? Secondly, what is the iLembe Municipality doing for the people in the rural areas, because the roads are far from them? This municipality does not announce that people must come with barrels; they just come at 12 midnight and leave. If you did not get water, it is your business because they only come once. Unfortunately this is not hearsay, but something I witnessed. [Applause.]
Also, the people from the rural areas should be treated with dignity, because they are South Africans who vote. They also need development, but there should not be a discrepancy between their development and that of those in the city. I will get back to you, Minister, with regard to Councillor Dumeshwe of Ward 55, Gebashe. What I am going to tell you is a shame. Maybe the chairperson of the committee is aware of it because I always complain about it. I submitted this complaint again, but he is not doing anything about it. People are even marching about this issue. I would like you to stop listening to the councillors and listen to the ANC people who say they support you because they vote for you.]
It is not about ...
... ukuthi abantu banivotelela kuphela ukuba kuze intuthuko kubo ngendlela efanele. Lapha eKapa yihlazo elibi. [Ihlombe.] Ukuze ubone ukuthi kuleyo ndawo kunabantu abamnyama uzwa ngephunga. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation in isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... the people voting for you so that the development comes to them in an appropriate way. It is a disgrace here in Cape Town [Applause.] You sense by the smell that there are black people in that place. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!
Ms M S KHAWULA: Ukuze ubone ukuthi kunabantu uzwa ngephunga. Lapha angikhulumi ngabezindaba kodwa ngikhuluma ngokuzibonela. EKayamandi, le phansi, abantu besifazane basebenza kwindle babamba ulayini omude beya endlini yangasese ekude. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[One can sense that there are people by the smell. This is not hearsay, but something I witnessed. Down there at Kayamandi, women work in faeces; they have to stand in a long line to go to the toilet and it is far. [Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, your time is up.
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Esikoleni saseLembe kuWadi 19 izingane azinamanzi. Lalelani, siyacela bakithi, ngoba uma nithi niyaqhuba kusho ukuthi ukuqhuba ngenye indlela ngizonicacisela ... [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: At a school in iLembe in Ward 19, children do not have water. Listen people, we are pleading with you because you are stating that you are working progressively. It means you’re working progressively in another way. I will clarify that for you ... [Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order! Hon Khawula.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Niqhubela ukuthi umuntu uyitholile inthuthuko? Akayitholanga kodwa nina niyaqhuba. [Ubuwelewele.][Are you not working progressively for a person to have access to development? They did not get it, but you are working progressively. [Interjections.]]
No, it is wrong, totally wrong. [Interjections.]
Amakhansela enu anephutha. Hulumeni kaKhongolose cabangelani abantu baseNingizimu Afrika. [Ubuwelewele.] [Your councillors are at fault. The ANC government must be sensitive to the issues of the people of South Africa. [Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Khawula, your time is up. Order! Order!
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Nina niphuza amanzi ahlanzekile abantu bona baphuza amanzi angcolile. Akeniphuzise abantu amanzi ahlanzekile. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: You are drinking clean water but people are drinking dirty water. Give the people clean water.[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order! In order for us to have a fruitful debate it is important to be respectful to one another and of time. The Minister was exemplary. She actually had only one minute of her time left. There is a watch on your left at the podium, which members must look at in order to assist the Chair. But, when members are told that their time is up, they should wind up and sit down. I have always been conscious of the fact that sometimes members are in the middle of a sentence, and then I will allow them to wind up. I would really like to ask all of us to ensure that we have respect for the debate we are having but also to respect our guests in the gallery and fellow South Africans at large. Thank you, members.
I know from now on you will be very respectful and honourable, all of you. Even if you have issues I will ... [Interjections.] ... Hon Ndlozi, you can take a seat.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, may I please ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is the point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, there is a real problem which I think all speakers are experiencing when they are at the podium. I think, if resolved, it will contribute to a proper debate. The comrades who are on that side must know the difference between howling and drowning out the speaker. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Ndlozi.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: And you are not tough on them, hon Chairperson. You must point them out ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: so that they stop drowning out speakers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Please, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, can you take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr B M MKONGI: Order, Chairperson...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Can I just finish.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, that is not a point of order. However, if you have got a point, you are a member of the Chief Whips Forum. These issues can be debated there. I think for now let’s assist each other and ensure that the debate goes accordingly. Hon member, on what point are you rising?
Mr B M MKONGI: Chairperson, the point of order that I am raising is that a ruling be made against members who interrupt you whilst speaking. That is rudeness and a ruling must be made against such conduct.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. I think I have asked every member in this House to be respectful and make sure that we assist one another towards the success of this debate. Indeed, members can interject but we should do so in a manner that doesn’t disrupt the House and allows speakers to be heard when they are at the podium. As I said, I trust that all of you, from now on, will indeed make sure that the debate by the hon Minister and her Deputy goes smoothly. I am sure all of us are interested in the issues that members are raising in relation to their constituencies. Order, hon Khawula.
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, bengicela ukuthi siqale phansi ngoba manje kukhona ogcina ungasakushongo. Njengokuthi-nje, ngifuna ukubonga kuNgqongqoshe. Kukhona uMnyango wakhe ongisebenzela kahle kabi. Ngisho ama-official kodwa, hhayi amakhansela. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, can we please start from the beginning, because one ends up leaving out some of the things one wanted to say. For instance, I wanted to thank the Minister. One of her departments works very well. I am talking about the officials though, and not the councillors.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Khawula. You will be able to write to the Minister and express your appreciation. Can we now move to the next speaker, which is hon Kekana. [Applause.]
Ms H B KEKANA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Ms A T Didiza
Ms H B KEKANA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister Nomvula Mokonyane, hon Deputy Minister Pam Tshwete, hon members, ladies and gentlemen ...
Ke ema mo boemong jwa ANC go ema nokeng Tekanyetsokabo 36 ya Lefapha la Metsi le Kgeleloleswe. [Legofi.] Lefapha la Metsi le Kgeleloleswe le botlhokwa thata go tlisa diphetogo, tlhabololo le kgolo moAforikaborwa. Tsamaiso ya Bosetšhaba ya Bolaodi jwa Metsi e tlhagisa jaana: Ditogamaano tsa go tsenya tirisong molao wa bosetšhaba wa metsi di ka se tswelelepele sentle fa go na le batho ba ba mmalwa go dira tiro eno.
Go botlhokwa go netefatsa gore re natlafatse batho ba ba ka tsenyang tirisong maano le melao eno ya metsi. Mafapha otlhe a puso a amogela gore Lefapha la Metsi le Kgeleloleswe le itemogela kgwetlho ya tlhaelo ya dikgono, eseng fela mo go reboleng ditirelo, mme segolobogolo mo go tlhokomeleng metswedi ya rona ya metsi. Dikgwetlho le dipholisi tse di tokafatsang dikgonobokgoni di tlisitse ditlhabololo di le mmalwa tse di latelang.
Puso ya bosetšhaba e tsereboikarabelo go katisa le go tokafatsa dikgonotsaBotsamaisi jwa Dikgaolo jwa Thuto le Katiso, Setas, ble tsa Lefapha la Thuto e kgolwane. Mafapha oomabedi e leng Lefapha la Matla le Lefapha la Metsi le Kgeleloleswe a le neetswe maikarabelo a go gokaganya, go tsamaisa, go tlhabolola le go natlafatsa dikgono.
Seno, ke go ya ka ditheo tsa tsweleletso ya dikgono tsa Togamaano ya Kago ya Dikgono 111, Kago ya Didiriswa Tiro 11 le Tselanakgolo e Ntšhwa le Tumelano ya Bosetšhaba ya Dikgonomagareng ga puso, kgwebo le badiri.
Maano a Dikgono a Botsamaisi jwa Thuto le Katiso la Sektara ya Ditirelo tsa Matla le Metsi 2011 le 2016 e tlhagisitse ditlhaelo tse di latelang tsa dikgono:Diphatlhatiro tsa bo enjinire; batsamaisi ba diprojeke tsa boenjinire ba ba nang le dikgonotsa setegeniki,batsamaisi ba tsa dikago, babetlatshipi le batlhatlhobi ba tsa dikago. Lefapha le na le baamegi le batsayakarolo ba bontsi jwa bona bo thibang letsatsi. Baamegi ba, ba na le dikgatlhegelo le maikarabelo a a farologaneng jaaka go natlafatsa le go katisa badiri.
Go botlhokwa go lemoga gore baamegi ba, ba emela puso, ditheo le diejensi tsa thuto le katiso; diejensi tsa metsi le ditheo tsa setšhaba. Ke akgola lefapha mmogo le Boto ya Rand Water, e e tshwereng ka natla go rarabolola dikgwetlho tse di itemogelwang. Metswedi ya metsi e tlhokometswe go ka neela baagi ditirelo ka tlhomamo. Re tlile go fitlhelela metsi rotlhe; le ba ba sa kolobediwang tota, batla kolobediwa. [Legofi.]
Akademi ya Thuto ya lefapha leno e tlile go tsibogela ka ponyo ya leitlho tlhaelo ya dokgono mo lefapheng. Ga ke re gatwe. Akademi e tla thibela le go kumola ka medi bothata jono jwa tlhaelo ya dikgono. Ditlamelwana tsa pula di baakanngwa go sa le gale! Ga re kitla re rwala mabogo mo tlhogong fa baenjineri bagolo ba ba thapilweng mo tirong ba leboga tiro ka ntlha ya bogodi.
Mo tsamaong ya nako, akademi e tla tlhagisa dikgonotsa maemo a a kwa godimo mo mererong ya tsa metsi, kgelelo ya leswe, bo mankge ba saense, tsamaiso le boenjeneri. Tlhaelo e e mo lefapheng e tla nna selo sa maloba. Akademi ya thuto e tlile go netefatsa gore batho ba bone kitso le go fitlhelela setšhaba gore batho ba tlhaloganye lefapha leno. Gape, e ema nokeng diporogerama tsa thuto le katiso moAforikaborwa. E tlile go abela bašwa dibasari le gore ba ithutele mo tirong. Mo godimo ga moo, akademi e na le ditsereganyokatiso tse di kgethegileng tse di tobileng bašwa ba ba se nang maitemogelo.
Porojeke eno, e samagana letlhaelo ya dikgono tsa setekeniki; tlhaelo ya bokgoni jwa go rebolela ditirelo tsa metsi ka kakaretso le togamaano ya go tlhagisa dikgono. Ditogamaano di teng ebile lefapha le itse sentle gore le tshwanetse go dira eng, jang le ko kae go ka di fitlhelela. Ke a leboga.[Nako e fedile.](Translation of Setswana paragraphs follow.)
[On behalf of the ANC, I support Budget Vote 36 for the Department of Water and Sanitation. [Applause.] The Department of Water and Sanitation is very important because it contributes towards achieving South Africa’s growth and development. The National Water Resource Strategy stipulates the following: Strategies to implement a national regulatory system to manage water affairs will not be attained if the department still has only a few people working in this sector.
It is important to ensure that people who will put in place plans and regulatory systems to manage water affairs are well equipped. All the departments in government have accepted the fact that the Department of Water and Sanitation is experiencing challenges in respect of its capacity and protection of water resources, not only in providing services. The implementation of policies that will ensure the enhancement of skills has brought about few developments in the department.
The national government took the responsibility to train and improve the Department of Higher Education’s sector education and training authorities. The Department of Education together with the Department of Energy have been given the responsibility to co-ordinate, manage, improve and transform our skills.
This is in accordance with the institutions that promote the skills, which are the National Skills Development Strategy 111, Human Resource Development 11 and the New Growth Path National Skills Accord between government, business and workers.
The Energy and Water Services Sector Education and Training Authority Skills Plans 2011 and 2016 were shown to have the following shortcomings with regard to their skills: Vacancies for engineers, engineering project managers who have the skills to manage technical issues as well as building inspectors, and artisans. The department has a high number of stakeholders who have different interests and responsibilities such as empowering and training workers.
It is important to note that these stakeholders represent the government institutions; agencies of education and training; water agencies and public institutions. I would like to congratulate the department and the Rand WaterBoard which together are working hard to resolve the challenges that we are facing. Water resources are taken care of to ensure that we provide the communities with the services that they need. We are all going to have water, including those who did not have water before. [Applause.]
The Department of Water and Sanitation’s Learning Academy will attend to the department’s shortage of skills as a matter of urgency; this is a promise. The learning academy will prevent and uproot the challenge of the skills shortage. We will not panic when our engineers retire. Forewarned is forearmed!
In the long-term, the academy will supply high-level skills for the following: Water; sanitation; science experts; management; and engineering. The skills shortage will be a thing of the past. The Learning Academy will ensure that it gets knowledge and understanding to the public on how the department works. Furthermore, it will support programmes for education and training in South Africa. The Learning Academy will provide the youth with bursaries and internship to the graduates.
This project will implement the strategy that deals with the shortage of technical and water services skills. We have strategies in place and the department knows very well what to do to meet its demand. Thank you. [Time expired.]]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Ms H B KEKANA
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon House Chairperson and hon Ministers, participating in this debate is disenabling. It is disenabling in many ways. It is in fact so disenabling that it somewhat becomes futile to participate in this debate. The figures that have been bandied about today are meaningless to the people who are without water.
Our water supply and its sustainability hang precariously in the balance. This is largely due to neglecting infrastructure maintenance and a general departmental attitude of ``tomorrow is another day’’.
In April 2013, I wrote to the then Deputy Director-General of the Water and Environmental Affairs and alerted her to the fact the Shemula water scheme at Jozini had become dysfunctional and that the taps had run dry for residents in the area.
In my speech on the 2014-15 Budget Vote, I drew the Minister’s attention to the water situation in Umkhanyakude. The question is: Has the situation changed? The answer is a big ``no’’. All that we are confronted with are the confused and confusing lines of accountability.
Our committee chairperson, hon Lulu Johnson, has rightly and continuously asked this question: Who owns water in South Africa? There has never been an answer to this question. This confused and confusing line of accountability still plays itself out in Umkhanyakude District Municipality. Umhlathuze Water is responsible for water projects in the district. Some of the companies which were employed by Umhlathuze Water were found to be incompetent. Busisa General Construction is one such company. Some companies, because they had not been paid by the district, stopped operating. The question is: Where is the Department of Water and Sanitation when water delivery fails on such a scale?
Minister, you cannot simply wash your hands of this; there is no water!
A government report released towards the end of last year stated that approximately R293 billion would need to be spent over the next five years if we are to forestall a looming water crisis. Where is the budget for this amount of spending?
In fact, to the department’s credit, it has spent huge amounts of money onthe Jozini water supply over the past years, but the community still has no water. Where is the money going to? It is left underground in the defective substandard piping while the community still drinks water from swampswith donkeys, goats and calves.
When it comes to sanitation, I agree that we need to generate new sanitation regulations that are sustainable and will meet our current and future needs.
When the Minister was speaking on national television during her visit to KwaZulu-Natal, she was advocating the pit-types toilets as a way of conserving water, which we use to flush toilets.
This may well be the case, but we must be wary of the solutions which come from research designed for specific groups of people. Again, in my budget speech last year, I referred to the one-roomed houses that were built with sceptic tanks in the Mbazwane area in Umhlabuyalingana Municipality. Those sceptic tanks have never worked. No corrective measures have been taken as we speak, and they still stink.
In conclusion, let me go back to what I said at the beginning. Participating in this debate is disenabling. How do I continuously stand before my constituency empty handed? Do I talk about your ``good story to tell’’ or do I tell them that the department is dysfunctional when it comes to delivering on its mandate? The buck stops with you, hon Minister. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr M L SHELEMBE
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mnu M L SHELEMBE: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, njengoba ngikhuluma nje sengiyababona abantu abangawatholile amanzi, balindile kumanje, njengoba ngikhuluma nje. Ngicabanga-ke ukuthi ngeke sikubangele umsindo lokho ngoba sonke sizimisele ukuthi bawathole amanzi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, as I speak now, there are people who have not yet received water; they are still waiting as we speak. I think we are not going to debate about this issue because all we want is for them to get water.]
South Africa is the thirtieth driest country in the world, and water is a finite national resource. For this reason, the Department of Water and Sanitation is, in our view, probably one of the most important departments in our government structure. It is tasked with our national water security and to provide sustainable and universal access to water and sanitation services for all our people. This mandate speaks directly to our Constitution for what is a basic need of life and sanitation speaks to the dignity and health of our people.
A 2014 report by the Institute of Security Studies estimates that each South African uses 235 litres of water a day compared to the international average of 173 litres a day. This will push the country into a water crisis that will, within a decade, rival the electricity catastrophe. This looming crisis, however, is not only due to high usage but also as a result of the aging infrastructure and a backlog of water delivery to communities because not enough money is being pumped into infrastructure.
The budget tabled here today, totalling R16,3 billion, of which R12,4 billion is allocated for water infrastructure development, once again shows that the government is not investing sufficient funds in averting the looming water crisis. How is it possible that the ANC government can spend more on, for example Correctional Service with a budget of R20 billion, yet not invest enough funds in water security.
Within 10 years from now, we will be burdened with ``tap shedding’’, just as we are burdened with load shedding now. Then there will be no blaming of apartheid. The government is aware of the looming crisis, but is not doing enough to avert it. Given that the government is not investing sufficiently in building new dams, the NFP suggests that we should at least give higher priority to water management.
The budget tabled before us, however, does not give us any clear indication of how the department intends to deal with water management. Water loss and ways to combat it is another concern which has not been sufficiently addressed in the budget. The major causes of water loss are currently infrastructure and its inadequate maintenance, vandalism and leaks which are not reported timeously.
Programmes such as the War on Leaks Programme and the ``No Drop’’ Report are useful, but they do not give the answers to the problem. We need more concrete goals to be set by the department and clarity on how it intends to address the problem of water loss. Effective ways to water management will go a long way to managing and maximising our existing water resources.
The NFP believes that municipalities, and in particular category B municipalities, are in need of waste water treatment plants that are simple and effective and are energy efficient and low maintenance. The need has never been greater. Plants which deliver high quality treated water consistently and which require only semi-skilled operators could be the way forward. Water from such plants could easily be used for irrigation or even for reuse in the industrial applications.
Once again, the budget tabled is scant on any tangible priorities awarded to an important issue such as waste water management.
Angisayiphathi-ke Ngqongqoshe indaba yaseJozini, njengoba ngikhuluma nje bayakhala! Hhayi impela awekho amanzi, ingayinhle inkulumo.
Njengamenje-ke kodwa sithi siyaseseka isabiwomali, kodwa ungakhohlwa ukuthi eJozini nakwezinye izindawo kubi. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[I can’t emphasise the issue of Jozini enough. People are complaining there as we speak! We can say all the good things, but there is absolutely no water.
However, we support the Budget Vote for now, but don’t forget that the situation is very bad in Jozini and other areas. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
Mr M L SHELEMBE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chair, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, His Majesty the King as represented in the House, hon Members of Parliament, chairperson, chief executives of water entities, hon guests, ladies and gentlemen, the budget we are presenting today seeks to redress the apartheid legacy of inequality in relation to the socioeconomic and political conditions that the majority of our people continue to face in this country.
The Natives Land Act of 1913 and the Group Areas Act of 1950 left the poor with no land rights, a condition directly linked to water rights. The infrastructure development of the past targeted the rich and the affluent suburbs. Through this budget we will pave the way towards a better life and bring dignity to the lives of all South Africans. The department travelled the length and breadth of the country creating critical links with communities, water entities, business, organisations, municipalities, traditional institutions, provinces, academic institutions and the sector organisations to mobilise them into the water and sanitation family.
Through vigorous public participation activities in the past year, the department has raised the expected level of awareness regarding South Africa’s water resources, water conservation, water supply, water reticulation and management. The Department of Water and Sanitation has moved South Africa to recognise that natural resources such as fresh water, arable land, clean air, plants and animals have limited life spans.
We look forward to our collaboration with organisations like the World Wildlife Fund, WWF, which offers strong civil society support. As a government and a nation we have to protect these resources to ensure ongoing food security, human health and overall economic prosperity.
Although we have made progress in this regard, we continue to face challenges such as vandalism and theft of public infrastructure, inadequate water supply, reticulation infrastructure, shortage of a technical skills base to address the growing demand of water and sanitation, and persistently low levels of understanding around issues of water pollution and environmentally friendly sanitation systems.
Recently, the department held a very successful imbizo in KwaZulu-Natal and received overwhelming support - hon Mpontshane - from traditional leaders, including His Majesty the king. Today the king is represented by two princes who are present in this House. [Applause.] We would like to acknowledge the presence of Prince Sabelo Zulu and Prince Thulani Zulu from KwaZulu-Natal. [Applause.]
During the launch of the Adopt-A-RiverProgramme in Limpopo last week, the department was supported by the Xikundu Traditional Council. In the nine provinces, the department will continue to mobilise and work on water and sanitation development projects with traditional leaders, community service organisations and nongovernmental community-based organisations. Siyaqhuba. [We are moving.]
As the hon Minister indicated, regarding the overall budget structure and the planned activities for the year in the five programmes, my office has identified the following programmes to support these planned activities: The 2020 Vision for Water and Sanitation Education Programme is aimed at creating community awareness in water resource management. In 2014-15 the department planned to reach out to 5 500 schools. This number was exceeded by far and, at the end, the final number was 7 336 schools. [Applause.] Through this campaign we encourage the participating schools with the best education on water and sanitation practices by awarding five media classrooms per year.
The following schools were awarded media classrooms in the last financial year: Qumbu Village Junior Secondary School and Empumalanga Primary School in the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan Municipality; Marota Primary School and Solomondale Primary School in Limpopo, and Midrand Primary School in Gauteng. We would like to thank the MTN SA Foundation for its investment in education and we look forward to collaborating further in the future. [Applause.]
In addition to the above achievement, a joint water project initiated by the department and the Wildlife and Environment Society of South Africa, Eco-schools, was awarded a UN-Water for Life Best Practices Award. [Applause.] It is us, hon Mpontshane.
The department will also be hosting the seventh Youth Water and Sanitation Summit from 29 June ...
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: You are probably aware that the hon Minister is addressing me. On that basis, can the Minister answer the question as to when we are likely to get water in Jozini?
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Before you pose a question, can we ask the hon Deputy Minister if she willtake a question or not?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: No, you are wasting my time. I am not going to take a question. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you. You have your answer.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: You can ask me outside; I will give you the answer.
The summit that we are going to host will be from 29 June to 02 July 2015 in Johannesburg which is about information-sharing and knowledge-acquisition on topical water and sanitation sector issues.
The department has a Memorandum of Understanding with the Department of Public Works for training and development of youth in scarce skills. The department is in the process of engaging some municipalities and there is a continued effort to finalise implementation plans. The department has four programmes that are aimed at empowering youth, women and people with disabilities within the water and sanitation sector and they will be given priority. The programme includes, amongst others, Women in Water and Sanitation Awards, Adopt-a-River programme and War on Leaks. The department has considered workable concepts for the above programmes for their implementation in the new financial year. We will also ensure that the big service providers partner with the youth and women to empower them. [Applause.]
The department is still rolling out water and sanitation services to the rural areas by using modern technologies because poor sanitation and water supply affect women and children more and impact greatly on the health of women and children. The department continues to award bursaries to needy learners as part of the development programme of the Learning Academy. To date, we are proud to say that 231 graduate trainees have been offered permanent posts within the department after completing their studies. [Applause.] Siyaqhuba. [We are moving forward.]
Over the next Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, cycle, the department will increase the intake of graduates into the Learning Academy by no less than 200 graduates with a combined budget expenditure of no less than R150 million. The increase in the number of young people joining the programme will provide the department and the water sector with the availability of high level skills in the future. The services of the Cuban nationals are further utilised in the transfer of the most critical skills to our local engineers.
Ayikho into yokuthenga abantu, uthenga amanqaku atshiphu okufuna ukunconywa ngezinto ezingekhoyo. [You cannot bribe people.The only thing you are doing is trying to score cheap points and be praised for empty promises.]
People know and some of them are asking why we are bringing Cubans to South Africa.
Nibashiya njani abantu bekhona eMzantsi Afrika? [How can you overlook South Africans?]
They know for a fact that we have a shortage of skills in South Africa, especially in engineering. Therefore we are saying do not mislead people. The Cubans are here to transfer skills and leave the country after three months. [Applause.] The department intends taking a serious look at the contributions of its programmes, especially those targeting previously disadvantaged businesspeople.
The Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Amendment Act of 2003 states that:
All spheres of government, public entities and organs of state must report on their compliance with broad-based black economic empowerment in their audited annual financial statements and annual reports required under the Public Finance Management Act.
I am therefore happy to report that our department has an approved BBBEE policy that intends to align all our systems and procedures so that we are ready for the BBBEE audit in the next financial year.
My speech would not be complete without mentioning our commitment to job creation. The department has been able to create jobs through programmes and projects onwater and sanitation infrastructure development. In the last financial year, the department launched and absorbed 101 military veterans within our rehabilitation of water resources infrastructure as well as the cleaning of canals projects. [Applause.] The department will further create jobs through projects such as water and sanitation infrastructure, for instance, through the projects that were mentioned by the hon Minister. The Minister and I have taken a firm resolution that each of these projects must benefit the communities in the vicinity of these water resources. We want the women who are staying near the rivers and dams to benefit from those dams. It cannot be right that only the elite are benefiting from the dams. We are going to fight that with the Minister. Everybody will benefit.
The department is particularly proud of including the meaningful jobs created indirectly through ...
Mr M WATERS: Hon Chair, I am rising in connection with Rule 60 on time limits for speeches. The hon Minister has far exceeded her 10 minutes. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Can you sit down, hon member. I think that watch is more accurate than yours. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: In conclusion, I would like to thank all our people, including all sectoral and traditional institutions. I would also like to thank the Minister for her leadership, guidance and support. [Interjections.] Yes, the family. You are right.
The Freedom Charter and the Constitution of our country opens with the words ``We, the people’’. This means our success as government depends upon the ability to facilitate public participation and the involvement of the people in the work we do.
Ndiyabulela! [Kwaqhwatywa.] [Thank you! [Applause.]]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you, Minister. You finished right on time. By the way, hon member Alberts and hon Carter are participating in another debate.If they come before the Minister responds, we will afford them their opportunity.
Mr T MAKONDO
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu)
Mr T MAKONDO: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, knowledge is power and a lack of knowledge is dangerous.
On 26 June 1955, the visionary leadership of the ANC convened all South Africans in Kliptown at what is popularly known as the Congress of the People, where South Africa's vision was crafted and adopted in the form of the Freedom charter. The Freedom Charter remains the only vision and basis upon which the ANC is moving South Africa forward. It says, ``All national groups shall have equal rights.’’
The ANC has approached the issue of the provision of water to all citizens in the country within a human rights framework and, to this end, the Constitution of South Africa has placed a legal obligation on government to realise people's rights to sufficient water. However, of importance to this debate today are the implications of a human rights approach to water and the comprehension of those with a right to water, and to balance these rights with careful management of our water resources.
Underpinning the two sides of the approach to water as a fundamental right and creating an enabling environment within institutions, policies, strategies and laws is the critical component of human responsibility to the environment. We cannot ignore the complexities and inequities that have created historical imbalances in access to water for all our citizens. However, the need to prioritise a mix of options to supply the huge demand for an equitable allocation balanced against the need for development and economic growth is something the ANC has grappled with since 1994. South Africa has achieved universal access to water supply thanks to the ANC government which has improved and expanded water infrastructure in the areas that were neglected such as former Bantustans. [Applause.]Ours is not a blame game but to be hard at work in reversing the imbalances of the past apartheid rule.
As a liberation movement, we have a responsibility to change the socioeconomic challenges of our people. It is important to indicate here today that the situation our people find themselves in is not a natural disaster but it is by design. To highlight my point, let me quote the apartheid President P W Botha in his speech to the apartheid Cabinet, in which some of my colleagues on my left were sitting. [Interjections.]
We do not pretend like other whites that we like blacks. The fact that blacks look like human beings and act like human beings do not necessarily make them sensible human beings.
This illustrates the proper reflection of the apartheid government in denying our people access to water.Yet here today the very same proxies of the very same government come and play games. As the ANC, we are a government at work.
South Africa as a water-scarce country has had to make and devise solutions ... [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the hon member is misleading the House in saying that the apartheid government is currently controlling one of the provinces. I don’t know which apartheid government he is referring to. [Interjections.] May I finish my point of order? If the hon member wants to look at the right side of the House and see how many National Party members are sitting over there, then he will know who I’m referring to.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, just sit down. Continue, hon member.
Mr T MAKONDO ... that, over time, requires difficult conversations and questions about how best to meet the country's economic and social priorities related to water for the current and future generations. Fundamental questions related to the economics of water, as well as environmental sustainability meant that government, prior to developing strategies such as the National Water Resource Strategy as well as the National Development Plan, has had to answer a series of fundamental questions on rights and responsibilities for prioritising countrywide changes in water resources management.
Although water governance, and holistic and integrated approaches to water resources management feature strongly on the international water agenda, water governance issues and distribution have been unevenly skewed in South Africa. However, the greatest shift has occurred in the emerging appreciation of the key role that the governance of water management plays with the political changes in South Africa. The emergence of a democratic system has allowed for the reform of the water sector with regard to policy, organisational structure, water rights and legislation.
In order to manage water one needs a plan and to plan one needs information. In a nutshell, you cannot plan for things that you do not know. Having said that, Budget Vote 36 ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): I will now allow hon Baker to speak. [Applause.] Hon Alberts, you will follow her.
Ms T E BAKER
Mr T MAKONDO
Ms T E BAKER: Chairperson and hon members, no sane or willing person would voluntarily drink, bathe or play in water polluted by sewerage, and yet that is what millions of South Africans are subjected to every day despite the Constitution guaranteeing that every person has the right to an environment that is not harmful to their health and wellbeing, as well as the right to sufficient water.
The ANC government committed itself to eliminating the basic water supply backlog by 2008 and the basic sanitation backlog by 2010, and yet here we are in May 2015 with millions of South Africans still living without access to clean drinkable water, and still dependent on rivers and streams for their supply of water.
According to research, three per cent of all deaths in our country are directly related to the use of unsafe water. Just last week, a 30-year-old man in Trichardt in Mpumalanga was diagnosed with cholera after drinking water from a stream in a field where he daily tended his cattle. This stream is being polluted by sewerage from a nearby broken pump station. Sadly, this pollution is evident in almost all our rivers and dams all over our country. Midmar Dam in KwaZulu-Natal is one of those in danger. E.coli levels in water tested near townships located alongside this dam are three to four hundred times higher than the level which is considered safe for humans. Consider the impact this also has on local tourism. The Midmar Mile attracts approximately 50 000 participants and spectators annually and it really does boost the local economy.
Earlier this year, the Swartkops River in Nelson Mandela Bay metro was polluted by raw sewerage amounts equal to 76 Olympic-sized swimming pools spilling into it unabatedly for 15 weeks; this isan environmental disaster of note.
We are at risk of completely devastating the quality of our water supply in South Africa by 2019 unless a concerted attempt to remedy this situation is actioned immediately. Poor and nonfunctioning waste water treatment plants must receive immediate attention if we are to successfully address this catastrophic issue of pollution.
Currently our country’s dams are 79% full; down from 90% a year ago. This is the lowest level since 1992. The danger here is that the water quality is going to decline even further as rivers cannot effectively flush away sewerage and other pollutants.
The cost of cleansing our water is also rising phenomenally. Water preservation is not just an environmental issue but an economic one as well. Water losses cost us dearly. An amount of R445 million is lost every year due to leaking or burst pipes as a result of poorly maintained infrastructure and R157 million is lost due to theft and billing problems.
Gauteng metros have a significantly high water loss of close to 40%; Mangaung has a 39% loss; eThekwini is at 35,6%, with the highest losses coming from Nelson Mandela Bay metro at 43% and Buffalo City at a staggering 47%. The City of Cape Town, of course, has the lowest loss at 20%.
If the current trends of pollution and rising costs of water purification are anything to go by, I dare say that the Ministry of Water and Sanitation is lacking. Minister, do the honourable thing and hold the culprits of pollution accountable, although I know this is an alien concept to the ANC.
Experts agree that by 2025 the demand for water in South Africa will outstrip supply. Hon members and fellow South Africans, like the ANC, our rivers and dams are running dry, but there is hope. 2016, Siyeza [we are coming]! [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Before hon Alberts speaks, let me thank members. I was also in this House whilst the House Chair was presiding, and we are indeed now behaving like Members of Parliament. Thank you to all hon members. Hon Alberts.
Adv A de W ALBERTS
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu)
Adv A de W ALBERTS: Chairperson, South Africa is facing a multidimensional crisis. We have seen some of the heads of this dragon in the form of the current power crisis, but there are more sinister ones lurking in the mist.
The most dangerous of them all is the one called ``We have no water.’’ Whilst government is acting with its usual there-is-no-crisis attitude, the evidence is mounting that the next wave to hit South Africa is indeed the water crisis.
Indien so ’n krisis ons tref, sal hierdie Eskomkrisis na ’n piekniek lyk. Eerstens kan niemand sonder skoon water leef nie en, tweedens, gebruik ’n groot deel van die ekonomiese rolspelers gesamentlik tot 10% van ons water. Net soos met die energieprobleem is dit duidelik: Vou die watertoevoer, vou die ekonomie, en vou Suid-Afrika. Die wyse waarop die ANC omgaan met sy grondwetlike watervoorsieningsplig is kommerwekkend. Alreeds in 2008 het dr Anthony Turton van die Wetenskaplike Nywerheids- enNavorsingsraad die regering gewaarsku dat ’n krisis aan die broei is en is hy eenvoudig ontslaan bloot omdat hy gesien het watter toekoms ons in die gesig staar.
Ons het sy verslag in 2010 weer by die Parlement ingedien vir die betrokke Minister se aandag, maar daar het natuurlik niks van gekom nie. Die verslag is egter steeds belangrik.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[If such a crisis were to hit us, this Eskom crisis would look like a picnic. Firstly, nobody is able to live without clean water and, secondly, a large section of the economic role-players jointly use up to 10% of our water. Just as in the case of the energy problem it is clear: Collapse water access, collapse the economy and collapse South Africa. The way in which the ANC deals with its constitutional duty to provide water is worrying. As early as 2008 Dr Anthony Turton of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research warned the government that a crisis was brewing because he saw what future was facing us.
We submitted his report to Parliament again in 2010 for the attention of the relevant Minister, but of course nothing came of that. However, the report is still important.]
One of the most profound findings in Dr Turton’s report is that South Africa has lost its dilution capacity due to over-allocation of national water resources. This means that the infrastructure is also under strain. We can see that now with water pumps continuously failing across the country, raw sewage running into our river systems and people dying due to contaminated water.
Voeg daarby hierdie departement se gebrek aan oorsig ten aansien van waterlisensies aan plaaslike owerhede, en jy het ’n resep vir chaos. In die voormalige Klerksdorp en nou Matlosana-munisipaliteit, byvoorbeeld, word die Vaalrivier aanhoudend besoedel deur die plaaslike owerheid weens die gebrek aan oorsig.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Add to that this department’s lack of oversight in respect of water licenses and local authorities, and you have a recipe for chaos. In the former Klerkdorp, now Matlosana Local Municipality, for example, the Vaal River is constantly polluted by the local authority because of the lack of oversight.]
It seems that the water system is following the same trend as that of Eskom with a lack of maintenance eventually catching up with us. The lack of maintenance can be directly linked to the lack of capacity. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research confirmed this in 2006 already and, to date, nothing has been done about it. Of course, we have to thank the ANC and its cadre deployment for this – an unconstitutional policy that is still ongoing today. [Interjections.]
This is not all. If one thought cadre deployment would enrich the process of decline, the Minister is now gracing us with the knowledge and human resources from Cuba, that crown jewel of development and poverty eradication.
An HON MEMBER: You hate them!
Dit beteken ... [That means ...]
We don’t hate them; we know they are people. They are just people suffering under a wrong, unjust government. That is all. They are good people, but they don’t have the capacity to teach us anything about water at this moment.
Dit beteken, weereens te danke aan die ANC, gaan ons binnekort ook beurtwater in die gesig staar – beurtwater in plaas van beurtkrag. Die Minister sal moet verduidelik waarom dit nie die geval sal wees nie, want die ontvouende feite weerspreek die sentiment van ``daar is geen krisis nie’’. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[That means, once again thanks to the ANC, that we are soon going to be faced with water shedding – water shedding instead of load shedding. The Minister will have to explain why that will not be the case, because the unfolding facts contradict the sentiment that ``there is no crisis’’.]
Minister, let me just add: We don’t hate anyone, but we have a problem if there is no capacity to resolve problems and to ensure that there is proper service delivery for all the people in this country, especially the poorest of the poor. Please don’t say that we hate people. I think that is unparliamentary, as far as I am concerned. Thank you very much.
Mr D MNGUNI
Adv A de W ALBERTS
Mr D MNGUNI: Chairperson, the Minister and Deputy Minister of Water and Sanitation, I have seen some Deputy Ministers and Ministers around here, portfolio committee chairperson and hon members, officials, ladies and gentlemen, the ANC, in support of Budget Vote No 36 produced a legend that articulated these wonderful quotations: ``Access to water is a common goal. It is central in the social, economic and political affairs.’’ He continued to say, ``Let there be work, bread, water, and salt for all’’. ``It always seems impossible until it is done.’ That is our former President, Madiba.
The reality of unequal access to basic services is starkly evident in our inheritance of the major challenges of inadequate infrastructure development in the mainly black townships and rural areas, as identified and resolved upon at the 53rd ANC conference. The ANC continually has to return to this inheritance of mixed but rapidly deteriorating infrastructure stock. Whilst certain pockets of the country had reasonable infrastructure, the appropriate networks to meet these needs of the population and the economy after 1994 were so skewed that, even today, the resultant impact of this inadequate or complete lack of infrastructure is part of the poverty landscape facing this country.
The ANC-led government needed to provide infrastructure that would meet the country’s economic demands whilst simultaneously redressing the apartheid imbalances that happened decades ago and must be addressed urgently, as envisaged by the hon members on my left who do not appreciate the gains the ANC has made with limited resources within 21 short years of being in government.
Labakwatiko nje kutsi basivusele emanceba ngekubita Hendrik Verwoerd,umcambi welubandlululo, ngekutsi abesihlakaniphi, njengobe kwente lomnye wabo longumbhali, labambita ngekutsi ngu-Allister Sparks, kulenkofali yabo lesandza kwendlula. Angati nome uyeva yini Make Balindlela.
Lalela-ke Make mhlon Balindlela ngibute. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)
[All they know is to reopen an old wound by mentioning Hendrik Verwoerd, the originator of apartheid, that he was brilliant, as one of them who is writer whom they call Allister Sparks has done, at their recent conference. I do not know if Ms Balindlela is hearing me.
Lalela-ke Make mhlon Balindlela ngibute. [Listen, hon Ms Balindlela, while I ask.]
Where is the intellectualism when the majority of our people were denied water during the time of that apartheid architect? Water pipes are still passing through our communities without a drop of water. It goes to minorities and golf estates. The ANC is dealing with the myopic vision of that person through the intellectualism of His Excellency J G Zuma and the ANC machinery. [Interjections.]
Since the establishment of democracy in South Africa, one of the greatest challenges has been to provide basic services and the related infrastructure to the majority of South Africans, something that the forefathers of most of the hon members on my left failed to do, and they are still praying that we fail.
Angati nome uyangiva yini, mhlon Balindlela. [I don’t know if hon Balindlela can hear me.]
Besides the obvious benefits of receiving clean, safe water and sanitation, hon Baker, such service delivery also aims to improve the quality of life and contribute to the poverty alleviation of the communities that benefit, something that the ANC is ambitious to achieve and will indeed achieve.
The ANC is a visionary organisation. There is nothing wrong with that. Whilst many parties in this House focus on the blame game and feed the nation with unfounded theories like hon Baker’s statistics, the ANC-led government focuses on infrastructure development. It has strategically positioned itself with a programme to develop, rehabilitate and refurbish raw water resources and water service infrastructure to meet the socioeconomic and environmental needs of South Africa, as inscribed in the National Development Plan. The Minister and Deputy Minister have alluded to the projects that have been executed and are still to be executed and enforced.
I think hon Mpontshane is now recharged because we are coming. Here is another booster.
Malunga lahloniphekile, Khongolose ngenca yeLitiko Letemanti Nekutfutfwa Kwendle, kuleBhajethi yanga-2015-16 sibeke eceleni imali yeluhlelo lwekutfutfukisa takhiwo lengetulu kwetigidzigidzi leti -R12,6; lekungu 76% wayo yonkhe ibhajethi. Loku kusho kutsi ikhule ngemali lengetulu kwetigidzigidzi le-R3! Awu, qhuba Khongolose, qhuba! [Tandla.] (Translationof Siswati paragraph follows.)
[Hon members and the ANC, because of the Department of Water and Sanitation, in the 2015-6 Budget we have put aside more than R12,6 billion for housing development, which is 76% of the overall budget. This means that it has increased by over R3 billion! Wow, forward ANC, forward! [Applause.]]
Hon MEMBERS: Qhuba! [Tandla.] [Forward!] [Applause.]]
Mr D MNGUNI: The increase in the water infrastructure development programme in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, is mainly driven by the development of bulk water infrastructure that includes funds allocated for the construction of new dams, rehabilitating and repairing existing bulk infrastructure, including wastewater treatment infrastructure, in line with government’s renewed emphasis on infrastructure development and the ANC manifesto.
The department has 229 funded bulk water supply and wastewater treatment infrastructure projects in various stages of the project cycle, 21 of which are mega projects. The projects are aimed at increasing and securing the provision of water and at eradicating service delivery backlogs. The projects provide mostly pipelines and treatment plants to connect dams with reticulation systems.
One good example of the integration of infrastructure across all sectors is the formation of the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Committee, PICC, to undertake infrastructure investment at all levels through various programmes, projects and plans. The interventions of the PICC are cross-cutting and are integrated and supported by 18 strategic integrated projects which have five core functions, which are to unlock opportunities, transform the economic landscape, create new jobs, strengthen delivery of basic services, and support the integration of African economies.
To all opposition parties, you must learn to be shapeless and formless like water. When you pour water in the bottle, it becomes a bottle. When you pour it in the teapot, it becomes a teapot. When it moves, it gets into the cracks. Don’t be rigid.
The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] Mr M P GALO
Mr D MNGUNI
Mr M P GALO: Chairperson, the AIC is aware of the fact that a major driver for sector reform has been a national political priority to rapidly provide basic services to households previously disadvantaged under the apartheid regime. A second driver of reform has been the constitutional imperative to devolve the responsibility of water services to local government. A third driver of reform has been intergovernmental funding, moving from dedicated and project-based funding to an approach of budgetary support between national and local government, with a stable and predictable medium-term budgeting framework to ensure speedy provision of basic services to the needy people, more especially in the rural areas.
However, this national priority has been thwarted by the web of corruption that is covering almost all district municipalities in the country. In the 2008-09 financial year, R28 million earmarked for sanitation was stolen by top officials in the Alfred Nzo District Municipality. The latest is the R631 million toilet scandal in the Amathole District Municipality, to name but two district municipalities. Such incidents are a clear indication that the poorest people in the rural areas are not going to get quality and sustainable water until Jesus comes back, which is why the AIC is of the view that district municipalities must be done away with. [Interjections.] We think that these municipalities must be converted into regional water board offices under the administration of the national Department of Water and Sanitation.
The AIC is concerned about the fact the department seemingly has no clear-cut plan as to how rural water infrastructure will be built. Even the report of the Water Research Commission is silent when it comes to deep rural areas. The department must come up with a clear plan on how it will build rural water infrastructure. We are not second-class citizens in the rural areas. We also deserve reliable, quality and sustainable water services.
Hon Minister, you must engage the Lesotho government so that the Polihali Dam in the Mokhotlongdistrict can also supply water to the people of Matatiele. [Interjections.] The people of Lesotho are residing with the people of Matatiele. [Interjections.] We need water from that dam. We must also benefit, hon Minister. Having said that, the AIC supports the budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms D CARTER
Mr M P GALO
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, Minister, at the outset what is your department’s relationship with theDepartments of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Environmental Affairs? Everyone seems to be passing the buck. Who is doing what about the raw sewerage spillage into the Midmar Dam that supplies drinking water to some one million South Africans?
Water samples taken from that dam show that there is no oxygen present in the water that goes for drinking water. Other samples show that there is little to no life in the water. Who is responsible? Is it Water and Sanitation, Environmental Affairs or Local Government? Passing the buck will kill our citizens and our children. This is has been going on for years. [Interjections.]
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Rule 58 says that a member must address the Chair and not the Minister. That’s Rule 58 of the NA Rules.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Point taken.Continue, hon member.
Ms D CARTER: Chair, through you, according to the Institute for Security Studies, current water demand in the country exceeds supply and this gap is expected to grow over the next 20 years. This is a grave situation that does not require any political obfuscation.
On eNews Channel Africa, eNCA, last week, the Minister downplayed the severity of the situation, claiming that the demand for water only amounts to about 75% or so of supply. What is the real situation, Minister, and what does the department intend to do about it? Is there an impending crisis, or is there not? Is this another Eskom in the making, or is it not?
The waters of our oceans are turning into vinegar because of the excess carbon in the atmosphere. The waters of our rivers, on the other hand, are polluted and contaminated. [Interjections.] As a nation, we are experiencing problems with both quality and quantity. We have no other country but this and no other planet but this. Water is life and when we fail to act to preserve water and maintain its quality, we put life itself in danger. It is really not a joke.
Why must we hear that a plan relating to our water resources and its usage is being prepared? I’m really pleading on behalf of Cope and asking if we will ever see meaningful implementation.
Sanitation is another huge imperative of our time. I’m going to ask again: What are we doing about the raw sewerage that is leaking into Midmar Dam? There’s no transformation without proper sanitation for all. It is despicable that we must hear in this budget that we are still endeavouring to get rid of the bucket system. As far back as 2010, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution declaring ``the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation as a human right that is essential for the full enjoyment of life and all human rights’’.
I hope that the department and the Minister share our concern at the municipal governance of water and sanitation. Most of our municipal water and sewerage reticulation systems are in a state of decay following decades of poor or no maintenance. We are sitting on a timebomb of growing water loss and rising fears of major sewerage spillage.
Has the Minister intervened in the scandalous R631 million tender awarded to a plethora of ANC cadres and family in the Amatole District Municipality? [Interjections.] If not, why not? Cope places great emphasis on proper and above-board infrastructure development and rehabilitation of infrastructure.
Let me address the question of revenue collected by the boards from the sale of bulk water, sanitation and other services to water service authorities in the areas. Are the municipalities paying the boards regularly and fully, or, as with Eskom, do they owe the boards big amounts of money? Thank you.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you very much, hon member. Colleagues and hon members, we were doing very well, but it looks like we are now back where we were.
Man N K BILANKULU
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu)
Man N K BILANKULU: Mutshamaxitulu, muchaviseki Holobye wa Ndzawulo ya swa Mati na Nkululo, Manana Mokonyane, Xandla xa Holobye, Manana Tshwete, Vaholobye lava mi nga kona haleno, vachaviseki hinkwenu na vayeni va hina lavohlonipheka swinene, inhlekanhi Maafrika-Dzonga lamanene. ANC yi seketela xiave xa swa timali lexi pimanyetiweke xa Vhoti ya 36. Muchaviseki Balindlela, ntiyiso wa vava kambe wa ntshuxa. Manana Khawula, mavunwa ya na magoza matsongo. Xivuriso xi ri: “Xihlovo a xi dungiwi loko u heta ku nwa mati” hikuva mundzuku loko u lava ku ya nwa mati u ta kuma ya thyakile”. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[Ms N K BILANKULU: Chairperson, hon Minister of the Department of Water and Sanitation, Ms Mokonyane; Deputy Minister, Ms Tshwete; Ministers present here; all dignitaries and our distinguished guests, good afternoon, fellow South Africans. The ANC supports the budget allocated for Vote No 36. Hon Balindlela, telling the truth is not so easy, but it shall set you free. Hon Khawula, lies do not take you anywhere. The proverb says that you should not criticize the party that you once belonged to because one day you may aspire to go back to it.]
You were members of the ANC, deployed by the ANC and you are the ones who caused all the troubles that you were talking about here. So you must bear the consequences. As hon members, you must see how to finish. [Interjections.]
The evolving of the water sector regulations and legislation in its current phase is as a result of the huge challenges faced by the current government of the ANC in working towards redressing the past imbalances of limited or no access to water for the majority of black people in South Africa. This is most specifically contained, contextualised and, on a daily basis, impacted on the lives of the majority of black people who did not have access to clean potable water. These are, and I have to emphasise, contained in the Irrigation and Conservation of Waters Act of 1912, the South African Water Act of 1956 and the Natives Land Act of 1913. The vestiges of these apartheid pieces of legislation are still evident as the current government works toward reforming past imbalances in law and regulation.
Allow me to shift away from focusing on apartheid-structured water legislation and regulation. Radical transformation within the water and sanitation sectors is currently at the forefront of our new ANC-led government. In 1996, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa was passed, and specifically section 24, Chapter 2, the Bill of Rights, stipulates that:
Everyone has the right (a) to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing; and (b) to have the environment protected, for the benefit of present and future generations.
Section 27(1)(b), Chapter 2, in the Bill of Rights, again stresses the importance of the right of all citizens to have access to ``sufficient food and water’’.
More recently, the concept of developmental water management emerged with the drafting of the National Water Resources Strategy. The strategy requires the consideration of the entire water value chain in terms of how water can contribute to achieving equitable, beneficial and sustainable development across the country.
The sentiments and principles of equitable, beneficial and sustainable consideration of the entire water value chain underlying the executive initiatives mentioned above is clearly stressed in our 2014 election manifesto in which the President of our country and the president of the ANC, hon J G Zuma, said, and I quote: Our struggle has now reached the second phase in which we will implement radical socioeconomic transformation to meaningfully address poverty, unemployment and inequality.
It is with pride that we as the ANC will make sure that we commit ourselves to working with our people to address the challenges and move South Africa further forward towards the achievement of the vision of the Freedom Charter. The right to water, sanitation and a clean environment, as stipulated in the Constitution, forms the cornerstone which gives meaning to the lived realities of the majority of citizens denied the fundamental basics.
Within the water and sanitation sector itself, the executive, through the Department of Water and Sanitation as a sector, leader and regulator, has had to systematically structure its work to ensure that principles in the Constitution and relevant pieces of legislation and regulations are operationalised for the improved and better institutional management of water resources at all levels of government.
Programme 5: Water sector regulationsreceived an allocation of R231,3 million in the 2015-16 financial year. However, of importance to this Budget Vote, which clearly articulates the election manifesto of the ANC, is expanding access to water. Thank you. The ANC supports the budget.[Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr L J BASSON
Ms N K BILANKULU
Mr L J BASSON: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, members and guests, the latest Municipal Water Services Performance Assessment report showed that 8 out of the top 10 municipalities listed are governed by the DA. This includes the City of Cape Town as the top metro. This performance speaks to our values of freedom, fairness and opportunity, where government is accountable to the people. For those who don’t believe it, here is the report.
South Africa is by all standards a very dry country, yet this government continues to act as if fresh water is an unlimited resource. Well, it is not. While load shedding continues, there’s an even more worrying prospect ahead - water shedding. Already communities suffer for days - sometimes months - without water.
Last year, the government indicated that capital investment in new water and sanitation infrastructure over the next 10 years is projected to require an estimated R670 billion. However, only 45% of this figure is currently allocated.
After Minister Nene’s Budget Speech this year, Dr Anthony Turton, of the University of the Free State, was quoted as saying that the Budget gave no sense that this country has a water crisis.
As we know, nonfunctional wastewater treatment plants run by municipalities and the mining industry are the main contributors to the contamination of our water resources. Various forms of contamination have also affected the Hartbeespoort Dam and the Umgeni River.
Hon Minister Mokonyane is missing in action and has only attended one portfolio committee meeting since the Fifth Parliament started. Is the Minister serious about solving our water and sanitation challenges? [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: (Mr J M Mthembu): Just hold on. Hold your horses. Members, again, please note that there is no problem with interjecting but, please, don’t drown out the speaker. Thank you.
Mr L J BASSON: It took the Minister 12 months to implement the recommendations of the report on the failure of water supply in Madibeng. You were informed through written questions about sewer problems in Bela-Bela, Modimolle, Mookgophong, Lephalale, Thabazimbi and Cradock, to name a few. The result? No improvement. South African engineers seek jobs, but you appoint Cuban engineers with substandard qualifications.
To resolve the abovementioned problems the DA recommends the following: We need to ensure that we improve our ability to hold polluters criminally responsible and that the sanctions are severely harsh; any new legislation should also make provision for municipalities to lose their status as Water Service Authorities, if they cannot perform the functions adequately. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chairperson, I just want to check if the hon member is related to Dr Wouter Basson. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon Deputy Minister, that is out of order. [Interjections.]
Mr L J BASSON: If the Minister was present in the portfolio committee meeting, she could have asked me the question there.
Any new legislation should also make provision for municipalities to lose their status as Water Service Authorities.
The Portfolio Committee on Water and Sanitation invites the relevant engineering associations to make presentations on how they could assist the department in appointing South African engineers. The Minister must put up a few bars and commit herself to attend portfolio Committee meetings.
It was announced, today, that ``Mokonyane says that they are left with 27 000 bucket system toilets to eradicate’’. Minister, here is the report of 11 March 2015. We have 215 000 bucket toilets in this country. [Interjections.]
The Nelson Mandela Bay Metro is facing water restrictions, because the Nooitgedacht Low Level Water Scheme does not have the funding to be completed. Yet last year, three weeks before the national elections, President Zuma and members of his Cabinet stood in front of a packed hall in Port Elizabeth and promised the citizens that the national government would get the R360 million needed to complete the scheme when, in fact, there was no intention to do so. Maybe we should ask Mr Danny Jordaan whether he could ask the ANC President when he will pay the money. [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, the Modimolle acid spillage has been declared a crime scene. A company offered to assist the department to clean up the Nyl River.You rejected that. It would have saved this government R500 000. Why, Minister? Can you answer that? Please, Minister, I await your answer on that.
Minister, the DA’s message is very clear:Stop your politicking and get serious about water in this country. [Interjections.]
Moh J M MALULEKE
Mr L J BASSON
Moh J M MALULEKE: Modulasetulo, Mopresidente Jacob Zuma, ge a itokošetša polelo ya gagwe ya pulo ya Palamente; ka ga boemo bja setšhaba, o bolela le baagi ba Afrika Borwa; a ba botšiša ka dingongorego tša bona. Ge a etla mo a efa Matona ditaelo, o ba fa tšona go ya ka moo baagi ba kgopetšego ka gona. Tšeo di lego mo Kabotekanyetšong ye ga se tša ANC, ke tša baagi ba Afrika Borwa. Ka fao, mokgatlo wa ANC o thekga Kabotekanyetšo ye gore o kgone go direla baagi seo ba se kgopetšego mo go Mopresidente.
Motlatšatona, ke nyaka go go botša taba ye nngwe; ba re lehodu ga le ke le utswetšwa. Lehodu o ka se le utswetše ka gore le tseba gore go utswiwa bjang. Batho ba ge ba dutše ba lla ka gore batho ba fa balatedi ba bona mešomo, ba kwešiša gore go tla tšewa motho yo a kwešišago ANC, yo a kwešišago gore batho ba baso ba nyakang eng, ba dira eng. Bona ba nyaka go le tlišetša dinoga le diphepheng tšeo di tlilego go utswa ditokumente gomme re di hwetše mo dikgašong kamoka. Ka Xitsonga ba re:(Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Ms J M MALULEKE: Chairperson, when President Jacob Zuma prepares for the state of the nation address, he consults with the residents of the country to find out about their challenges. When he gives instructions to the Ministers, he makes sure that those instructions line up with the needs of the residents. The needs that appear in this Budget Vote are not theneeds of the ANC but those of the citizens of this country. The ANC therefore supports this Budget Vote as it will meet the needs of the citizens. Those are the requests they made to the President.
Deputy Minister I want to tell you something. Nobody will ever steal from a thief because the thief knows the stealing tactics already. These people keep n complaining about cadre deployment because they know very well that we will employ people who are familiar with the ANC, people who will understand the needs of the black people. They want to bring us people who will steal our documents and splash them all over the media. In Xitsonga they say:]
Masasana u fele enhoveni. [A good man is not shown any gratitude for his kindness, but he dies in grief.]
Ge le ka tšea batho ba la ba tsenya ka mo le tla be le ipolaile ka bolena. Ga go kgonege gore mmušo wo o bušago o ka tšea motho yo a sa kwešišego seo ba se hlokago gomme wa mmea ka mo ofising.
Batho ba Cuba ba tlile mo go thuša rena re le MaAfrika Borwa. Re a tseba gore baintšineara ba bantši ke ... ga ke tsebe gore ge ke re ke maburu ke a rogana naa. Eupša baintšeneara ba rena ba bantši ke makgowa. E bile makgowa ao, a a re kganyetša. Lehono le ema mo le bolela ka tšhologo ya esiti. E swanetše e be gona ka gore batho bao ba šomago dilo tše ke batho ba lena, ga se ba rena. Rena re kaone ka gore ka lehakoreng la rena tšhologo yeo le bolelago ka yona e direga ka phošo. Ga go swane le nako yela Wouter Basson a tšhetše mpholo ka meetseng gore batho ba nwe gomme ba hwe. Ye tšhologo e tla ka phošo; e bile ke ye nngwe ya dilo tše bohlokwa tšeo e lego gore ke nnete re swanetše re di lokiše re le ANC.
Mme Mmakhawula o na le lerato go setšhaba eupša o timetše. Lebaka ke gore ka mo gare ga mokgatlo wa EFF ga go na le seo ba dumelago gore se dirwe. Ge a tliša diswantšho a re batho šiba ba dula kaekae, re a dumela, bjale ge a re Kabotekanyetšo e se ke ya ya go ba šomela o di tlišetšang dilo tšeo mo go rena? Taba ke gore ge a tliša dilo mo o swanetše go di tliša a re setšhaba se thušwe ka se le sela, a se ke a re go fetša a re Kabotekanyetšo e se ke ya thekgwa. Bjale re tla šoma dilo tšeo batho ba gagwe ba di hlokago ka eng?(Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[If you want trouble, just employ these people. The ruling government cannot employ someone who does not understand their needs and expect the very same person to carry out their duties well.
The people from Cuba are here to help us. We know that most of the engineers are ... I am not sure if ``boers’’ will be the right word to use. Most of our engineers are white people and those white people care less about us. Now you are talking about spilled acid. That is bound to happen because it is the work of your people. We are far much better than them because, with us, a spillage happens by mistake. This is different from what Wouter Basson did when he poisoned the water so that people can drink it and die. The spillage is a mistake; it is one of the important challenges that the ANC needs to address.
Mme Mmakhawula loves the nation but she is lost. The problem with the EFF is that they do not support anything. Every time she brings people to our attention, we agree with her but then she will disagree with the Budget Vote that is to assist those people. This makes one wonder why she even brings those issues to our attention. After having explained the needs of the people, she should support the Budget Vote. How are we going to address the needs of the people she brought to our attention?]
Ms Baker! If you don’t have time to read, you don’t have time to lead.
Mopresidente Jacob Zuma o boletše kgale ka mathata a tšhologo ya esiti. Motlatšatona ga ana metsotso ye mebedi a boletše ka mekgwa yeo ba tla e šomišago go rarolla mathata a tšhologo ya esiti. O boletše gore go na le lenaneo leo ba nago le lona, leo ka lona ba tla tšeago bafsa ba mo Afrika Borwa bao ba sa šomego gore ba tlo thuša ka tšhologo yeo. Bjale wena o nyaka eng? O nyaka eng? Kliptown e tla humana karabo yeo e e swanetšego, e sego yeo wena o re gapeletšago go e fa.(Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[President Jacob Zuma has already spoken about the acid spillage. It is not even two minutes since the Deputy Minister explained about the strategies they are going to employ to curb further acid spillage. She has indicated that there is a plan in place and that they will use the unemployed youth to deal with the spillage. What do you want? What do you want? Kliptown will get a proper response, but not the one you are imposing on us.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON(Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, when you address the House, you must address it through the Chair.
Ms J M MALULEKE: Through you Chairperson, hon Galo, your nearest police station ...
... e hloka mošomo, sepela o ye go bega melato ya batho bao o ba tsebago ba utswa. ANC ga e go thibele go swariša mang goba mang yo a utswitšego tšhelete yeo e bego e swanetše go thuša setšhaba.(Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[... needs to be kept busy; go and report people who have committed theft crimes. The ANC does not stop you from reporting any person who has stolen the money that was supposed to have been used to address the needs of the public.]
Hon Carter, I feel sorry for you because you bring this debate to a question session, and you had time to ask the Minister questions during questions time. However, because you do not have information, you just debate for the sake of debating. I don’t know what to say to you. [Interjections.] We should not take our debate as issues of politicking.
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is the member prepared to take a question? [Interjections.]
Ms J M MALULEKE: No, Chairperson, I don’t have time.
MaAfrika Borwa ga a rate go bolela dilo tše botse tšeo di diragalago mo nageng ya gabobona ka gore di dirwa ke ANC. Re be re etetše Korea, dipholisi tšeo go fiwago mohlala ka tšona ke tša Afrika Borwa. Gohle moo re yago gona re botšwa ka Matona a rena. Batho bao ba tšwelago kantle, le mohl Basson a ka hlatsela seo ka ge a be a le gona, e bile o be a ikgantšha ka Afrika Borwa ka ge sengwe le sengwe seo se bego se ngwadilwe mo botong, e be e le ka Afrika Borwa – dipholisi tšeo ba nago le tšona tše botse tšeo di šomago. Bothata ke gore di ka se bonagale ka gore batho bao ba tlago mo ga ba tlele go thuša setšhaba ba tletše go nyaka diboutu.
Go swana le ge ba tšere Mme Balindlela. Nna ga ke na seo ke se kwago mo go bona. Bothata ke gore ba mmeile mola gore batho ba Eastern Cape ba bone e ke go nyakega batho ba baso ka mo gare ga mokgatlo wa DA. Ga go na se bohlokwa seo ba go beetšego sona moo ka gore le ge ba ka go tšea ba go bea Tonakgolo ya Eastern Cape, ke eng seo o tla se dirago seo o paletšwego ke go se dira ka nako ya ANC. Tseba gore tšhelete ya mmušo e a swana.(Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[The people of South Africa don’t want to talk about the good things that the ANC is doing in their country. We have visited Korea; they were using the South African policies as examples. Everywhere we go, we are told about our Ministers. People who travel abroad - hon Basson can attest to this since he was part of the delegation and he was proud of South Africa because all the writings on the board were about South Africa – know the good policies that are also being implemented. These policies are not visible because people come here to get votes but not to work for the people.
Just like they took Mme Balindlela. There is nothing coming from her. The only problem is that they have placed her there to convince the people in the Eastern Cape that the DA accommodates black people. They have placed you in that position for nothing because, even if they make you the Premiere of Eastern Cape, what is it that you will do, which you failed to do while still in the ANC. Government money is the same.]
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson,if you cast aspersions against any member of the House, should it not come in the format of a motion to the House? I think it should be withdrawn. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, on what issue has aspersions been cast? Can you enlighten me?
Ms D CARTER: Unless there is a problem with the interpretation, then it was against hon Balindlela.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): No, no. I am asking what is it that has been said that cast aspersions.
Ms D CARTER: That she is not here for the people of South Africa; that the only reason why she is here is just to get votes. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member Carter, then let’s go and listen to the recording and we will come back to that.
Moh J M MALULEKE: Rena baagi ba Afrika Borwa – nna ke tšwa Mathibestad – re amogela Kabotekanyetšo ye. Re be re bina retologa ka mo gare ga dintlwana tša rena tša go ithomela. Ge o dutše mo bodulong o be o eya ka mo le ka mo ka ge bodulo bo be bo sa lekalekane; eupša lehono Masepala wa Moretele o na le dintlwana tša boithomelo tšeo di tlišitšwego ke mmušo wa ANC. Batho ba rena ba di thabetše e bile ba šetše ba tsentšwe go Kabotekanyetšo gape go oketša gore ba fetše ba na le dintlwana tša boithomelo tšeo di swanetšego.
Le nna ke swana le Mme Mmakhawula ga ke bege mabarebare; ke bolela ka dilo tšeo ke phelago ka tšona. Rena re le baemedi ba setšhaba re swanetše go thuša setšhaba sa rena moo go nago le ditlhotlo. Nka se tle mo ka fihla ka bega gore Mmasepala wa Moretele ga o na meetse mola ke tseba gore baagi ba rena ba kolota Tshwane gomme yona e ba fokoletša meetse e bile ke tseba gore baagi ba Tshwane ga re lekane ... [Go se kwagale.] Ke a leboga.(Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs J M MALULEKE: We the residents of South Africa – I am fromMathibestad – support the Budget Vote. We used to find ourselves dancing from side to side in old toilets because they were not balanced, but today the ANC has erected proper toilets in Moretele Local Municipality. Our people appreciate these toilets and, to make sure that they have enough toilets, we have included more of them in the Budget.
Just like Mme Mmakhawula, I also don’t report rumours; I talk about real things. We should address the concerns of the public because we are here to represent them. I cannot come here and tell you thatMoretele Local Municipality lacks water while I know very well that the people in Tshwane do not pay their water bills and, as a result, water restrictions are being implemented. I am also aware that people do not earn the same amount of income ... [Inaudible.] Thank you.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon Minister, it is now your opportunity to respond. You had 10 minutes, but you saved one minute at the start of the debate, so you have 11 minutes.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu)
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Yes, bring back my one minute.
Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank members who made substantial contributions in this debate. One of the things that we need to appreciate is that issues of water and sanitation over the past years in South Africa were used to discriminate against people; to ensure that the dignity of the African woman is continuously undermined and also as an opportunity to give white Afrikaner families a space for them to grow in the water sector, where you find three generations of the same family working in the sector.
We seek to bring Cubans who have the skill and knowledge. Cubans are casualties and were embargoed by America because they are not a signatory to the American accord. Today they are called substandard. They are not substandard; they are doing much better. They sustain the commitment of government to transferring skills and knowledge. [Applause.] Hon members ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Colleagues, those guests up there have a lot of respect for all of us. Let us therefore not reduce that respect. Minister, you may continue.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: As the ANC and the people of South Africa, who are we to quickly forget those who were with us during trying times? We will forever identify with them because of their capability and commitment to help us reconstruct South Africa. We will bring more Cubans to transfer skills. We will train more South Africans to acquire skills and allow the transformation of the sector. [Applause.]
Chairperson, I also want to deal with what hon Wouter, no I mean what was raised by hon Adrian Basson ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, please take a seat.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, you made an earlier ruling about the inappropriateness of referring to a member and she knows what she is doing. She did it intentionally ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I am sorry.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... and I would ask that she withdraws that. Hon Basson is a hon member of this House and if the Minister wants to be treated with respect then she must treat other members of the House with respect as well. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Let us speak to that? I think the Minister said sorry ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Sorry, I apologise.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): I think she indicated that it was not intentional. She said sorry.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chair, I apologise but I am very proud to be associated with iNkosi Sbonelo Mkhize and - if he can be called Sbonelo - I will not be embarrassed. One Mkhize is the same as another Mkhize, siyafana sonke [we are all the same]. So I am proud of my family identity. [Applause.]
One of the things that I want to also respond to is the notion that has been raised to say that we are not responding to water challenges in South Africa, and yet we have spoken about water security and water infrastructure management. We also spoke about dealing with better behaviour when it comes to the usage of drinkable water. We seek to review licensing, including water ownership patterns in our country. We have said that but because people want to clamour on an issue we are busy working on as a country, as enshrined in the NDP, why must we come to this august House and lie and mislead the House, like the hon Adriaan Basson said? [Interjections.] Is it Andrian? Bayafana laba bantu [These people are the same.] [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, there is no Andrian Basson in this House. This Minister is turning it into a joke and a game. She is calling a member by a first name which he doesn’t have. His name is hon Leon Basson. Are you related to Idi Amin? [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, before we rule on the matter, can you just withdraw your latest statement and then we will ask the Minister to withdraw as well.
Mr I M OLLIS: I will happily withdraw. I withdraw unconditionally.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you, that’s it. [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Both must be withdrawn.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon Minister, just withdraw.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I withdraw unconditionally, hon Leon Basson.
The member comes here and he puts in the thousands the number of units that have to be eradicated through the eradication of the bucket system in formal townships. That is not true. We only have 27 000 that we have to eradicate. The total number that you have has to do with the sanitation programme for the entire country and not only for townships. We are talking about communities that are much better, and I want to challenge hon member Balindlela. When I was the Premier, we eradicated the bucket system in Gauteng and we are only left with Tsakane which has under a hundred. In the Eastern Cape, Makana still has a huge number of toilets ... [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, this member is misleading the House ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, not member.
Mr I M OLLIS: She knows very well about the bucket toilets in Alexandra. She is misleading the House.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, you know, as I do, if you want to go that route, you can only do that through a substantive motion. Would you mind taking your seat? Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: When she was the Premier she could not even assist and hence she moved to the other side.
In pursuing the objectives of the Freedom Charter, in Sphonzana Nkosi in the Eastern Cape where we still have challenges ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Colleagues, again, those guests up there respect all of us, but the way we are behaving now, I am not sure what they will think of us. Continue, Minister.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chair, we are here ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Yes, hon Carter.
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, with respect, I just want to say that substantive motions are not only for the opposition; it is a two-way street. Whenever we raise something there is nothing about a substantive motion, but if it is against any member of the ruling party then there must be substantive motions. Why? [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon Carter, for us to get your point of view, if you expand on any member misleading the House, then we need that substantive motion, whether it is by the opposition or the governing party. These are the rules, and rules are rules. We cannot have different rules for different folks.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chair, again, members of the DA come here and raise issues that have to do with the incapacity of local government. In line with the Back to Basics Programme that we are dealing with, I mentioned 27 district municipalities and Nelson Mandela. When the hon member came here to speak about spillages into our rivers and streams, she forgot something. However, she talks about six weeks and so on but one day of spillages is one too many. Here in the Western Cape, since October 2014, in Gordon’s Bay, there has been a spillage that cuts across our own communities. The cleaning of that spillage only happens when it flows to the elite and white communities. Go; today it is still happening. That is precisely because your own interventions are interventions to protect the previous establishments but refuse to provide redress.
I also take exception to people standing in this august House and saying that it is only them - hon member Nosimo, you come here and say that it is only you - who can restore the dignity whilst you messed with our dignity. [Applause.] You messed with our dignity and we are sorting out the mess. You even had to bring somebody to your own national congress to come and give salutations to Hendrik Verwoed, precisely because you want to become a lager and not only a white lager but a lager of white supremacy using the black people there. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, take your seat. What is your point of order?
Mr B M BHANGA: I am going to give it to you.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Okay.
Mr B M BHANGA: Chairperson, the hon Minister continues to express in this House racial divisions. [Interjections.] She has a responsibility as a Minister of the people of South Africa to treat South Africans equally, black and white. [Interjections.] She is failing what Nelson Mandela and Govan Mbeki stood for. That is racism at its best. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, take your seat because that is not a point of order. [Interjections.]
Mr B M MKONGI: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): What is your point of order because I have just ruled on this matter?
Mr B M MKONGI: No, I mentioned earlier to the first Chairperson that a ruling has been made in this House, and that ruling against the abuse of chairpersons by the DA must stand. We stopped the EFF and now they are coming in. Chairperson, please stand by that when making your ruling.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, please sit down. Hon Minister, continue with your response.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Chair, the other thing that I want to raise is that when it suits members of the opposition then we do not have to go through our normal supply chain systems, just as the hon member Basson indicated that there was a company he carried to bring as part of those who can bring solutions to Hartebeespoort. If I had brought a company called Mkhize or Mahlangu, then it would have been called corruption but because it is people you know then you think that we are not going to do that. [Applause.] Instead, what we will seek to do is to open up and find solutions to the Hartebees acid mine drainage. Instead we will create new black industrialists. We will impose quotas on the established companies and we will ensure that we create new industries and that there is also skills transfer. We are in that process and we are doing it. We will not actually bring what you are carrying in your pocket; that will not happen. We will rather use our water agencies to do that because if it was a Mokonyane and Daughters, you will say it is corruption. However, they came with your bag and you are comfortable with them. [Applause.]
I just want to respond to the issues that are related to what the EFF raised. Mama, I do appreciate ...
... lokho okushilo futhi ngiyizwa kahle inkinga yakho yokuthi ungasisekeli kulesi sabiwomali ngoba siniphuce inyama emlonyeni eGiyani. Namhlanje esikwenzayo e-Limpopo ukuthi siqede yonke into embi eyayenziwa ngumholi wenu ephuca izimali komasipala, efaka ama-borehole anganamanzi, ajahe abaholi bakwamasipala ukuthi banike yena amathenda. Manje sikule nkinga esibhekene nayo ngenxa yomholi wenu. Makabuyise izimali zethu ukuze sikwazi ukuyosiza abanye abantu. [Ubuwelewele.]
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Bengifuna ukwazi kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi uma ethi umholi wethu uphuce izimali laphayana unabo yini ubufakazi? Uma enabo kufanele ngabe ububeka ngaphambili, hhayi ukuthi akhulume la ngoba okokuqala akekho umholi wethu. Ngiyabonga.
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Hlala phansi mama.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NEZOKUTHUTHWA KWENDLE: Kuzwakele, ubufakazi bukhona. Leyo nkampani yomholi wethu siyikhiphile futhi ngeke isathola amakontileka e-Limpopo futhi sibakhiphile nabaholi bakwamasipala abasebenza ngalezi zinkinga kanye namalunga kaKhongolose abekade besebenzisana naye. [Ubuwelewele.]
Nks M S KHAWULA: Uxolo, ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[... what you said and I understand very well what your issue is and why you are not supporting us on this Budget Vote. We’ve snatched Giyani from you. What we are trying to do today in Limpopo is get rid of any corruption that was done by your leader like taking monies from municipalities, putting boreholes without water, and chasing after the municipality leaders to give him tenders. We are in this predicament because of your leader. He must return our monies so that we can help other people. [Interjections.]
Ms M S KHAWULA: The Minister alleges that our leader took monies. Does she have evidence to that effect? If she does, she should have revealed it; she shouldn’t make empty accusations, especially considering that our leader is not present. Thank you.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Sit down, ma’am.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Noted; evidence is available. We have removed our leader’s company; it will not be receiving tenders from Limpopo and we have removed the municipality leaders who deal with such issues and the members of the ANC who were working with him. [Interjections.]
Ms M S KHAWULA: My apologies, thank you.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, any casting of aspersion on any member of this House should come through a substantive motion. Therefore, we cannot allow that any member be accused of wrongdoing outside of court processes or without a substantive motion. Can you withdraw that part?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I will withdraw but what I want to emphasise ... [Interjections.] I withdraw. Can I proceed? [Interjections.]
Mr L J BASSON: Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Don’t provoke me.
Mr L J BASSON: Can I ask if the Minister is willing to take a question. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I am ready; I am ready.
Mr L JBASSON: Chairperson, can I ask the Minister, when she will make ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon Basson, by the way, you are asking through me so that you do not have a discussion between you and the Minister in this august House.
Mr L BASSON: Sorry Chairperson, I asked and the Minister answered me directly. So, I ask through you, Chair.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, are you prepared to take a question?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Come.
Mr L BASSON: The Minister says I must come. [Interjections.] Chair, through you, when is the Minister going to keep to her promise of paying the R360 million to the Nooitgedacht Scheme, which she promised in Port Elizabeth three week before the election?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: It is not about the promise; actually, you are late. We are on site and we are working with the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality. Therefore, it doesn’t help. [Applause.]
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Mama, usukuma ngaliphi iphuzu?
Nks M S KHAWULA: Nami bengifuna ukumbuza umbuzo. [Uhleko.]
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Ngqongqoshe, nguwe uvumele umbuzo phela. Umbuzo kaBasson uvunyelwe nguwe awuvunyelwangwa yithi, manje uyawuvumela nalo? [Ubuwelewele.]
Nks M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngeke ngilwe, ngicela ukubuza umbuzo nje kuphela.
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Ngqongqoshe, uyawuvumela umbuzo?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NEZOKUTHUTHWA KWENDLE: Yebo.
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo wami kanye nakuwe Ngqongqoshe, asilwi kuphela nje inkinga yehlela phansi kubantu. Ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi ngoba uyayibona inkohlakalo eyenziwa ngumholi wami, manje uthini ngale phrojekthi kuwadi 54 eyafaka amapayipi okuthutha indle ngemuva kwalokho yangaqedi umsebenzi. Ngalesi sikhathi kuwadi 54, 9 naku-7 abanawo amanzi futhi banukelwa yindle. Lezi yizinto ozaziyo kodwa leyo kampani ngenxa yenkohlakalo kaKhongolose bayithola imali. Manje ngifuna ukwazi ngalokho.
Okwesibili kunama-house connection angafakwanga, kuyimanje leyo mizi igcwele indle. Ngifuna ukwazi kuNgqongqoshe ngoba yonke leyo nto ikhona. Ngiyabonga. [Ubuwelewele.]
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Kumele ubuze umbuzo owodwa. Ngicela ukuthi siqale lapho uqale khona. Ngithi la uqale khona uqale endaweni embi ngoba sithi uNgqongqoshe kumele ahoxise lokhu akukhulume ngomholi wakho, ngempela ukuhoxisile. Manje wena uqale lapho, manje xolisa.
Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngiyaxolisa.
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Awuzwe-ke, siyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NEZOKUTHUTHWA KWENDLE: Angixolise nami mama, ngisho ukuthi kunophenyo olwenziwe nguMkhandlu waseThekwini kunombiko ophumile futhi uMeya waseThekwini umatasa usebenza ngawo. Okokugcina engifuna ukukusho ukuthi izinkinga ezibhekane noMkhanyakude kanye neShemula Water Scheme lezo yizinkinga ezadalwa yiNkatha ngenkathi isaphethe laphayana. [Ihlombe.] Esikwenzayo manje ukuthi sixazulula izinkinga ngoba ngikhuluma manje ... [Isikhathi siphelile.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): [Ma’am, on what point are you rising?
Ms M S KHAWULA: I also wanted to ask her a question. [Laughter.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, you are the one who gave permission for a question. You are the one who gave Basson permission to ask a question; it wasn’t us. So are you allowing this one as well? [Interjections.]
Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, I won’t fight, may I please ask a question and nothing more.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Minister, do you give permission for a question?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Yes.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Thank you, my Chairperson. To the Minister, we don’t only fight the problems that filter down to the people on the ground. Since you can see my leader’s corrupt acts, I want to know about what you are doing about the project in Ward 54 where they put sewer pipes but after that the work was not completed. Moreover, Wards 54, 9 and 7 don’t have water and there is human waste all over. These are things that you are aware of but that company still received money due to the corruption of the ANC. I want to know about that.
Secondly, there are house connections which were not connected. As we speak, those homes are full of human waste. I want an explanation from the Minister because this is real. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): You should ask one question. Allow me to start from where you started. You started incorrectly because we asked the Minister to withdraw what she said about your leader, and indeed she withdrew. But you referred back to that, so apologise.
Ms M S KHAWULA: I apologise.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): There we go. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Let me apologise too, ma’am, and further state that in the investigation conducted by the eThekwini Municipality there is a report that was released and the eThekwini Mayor is busy working on it.
Lastly I would like to state that the problems that are facing uMkhanyakude Municipality and the Sheluma Water Scheme are problems that were created by Inkatha Freedom Party when they were in charge of that place. [Applause.] We are resolving the problems as we speak ... [Time expired.]]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, on a point of order.
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Isikhathi sikaNgqongqoshe siphelile. Nifuna ukuthi singapheli isikhathi?
Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Masilungise lokhu ... [Ubuwelewele.]
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Phela kuzothiwa mina nginikeza uNgqongqoshe isikhathi esiningi. Isikhathi siphelile. [Ubuwelewele.] [Uhleko.]
Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Hhayi! Sihlalo, asilungise lokhu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): The Minister’s time has expired. You don’t want her time to expire?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Let’s correct this ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): I’ll be accused of granting more time to the Minister. Her time has expired.] [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: No! Chairperson, let’s correct this.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, I hear you.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson, I think that Hansard records are very important.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Wonderful.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Wait a minute; let me get advice because the Minister now has left the podium. Let me be advised. [Interjections.] I am told that that is a dispute of fact and it is not allowed. Thank you very much.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Another point of order.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): No. It can’t be a point of order. Hlala phansi baba [Sir, take your seat].
Colleagues, members and guests, we thank all of you for this very hot debate. We thank the Minister and our guests. As we all know, our work as members is not yet done.
Let us be reminded that there is a debate on trade and industry and also telecommunications and postal services and that those debates are taking place at 16:40. The first debate, which is on Trade and Industry, is right here in the NA and the Telecommunications and Postal Services debate is in the Old Assembly Chamber.
The Committee rose at 16:23.
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