Hansard: NA: Debate on Vote 15: Higher Education and Training (NA Chamber)

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 13 May 2015


No summary available.




Wednesday, 13 May 2015                                                                      Take:  1







Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the National Assembly Chamber at 15:00.


The House Chairperson Ms A T Didiza, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I would like to welcome the guests of the Minister who are also, by their presence here, the guests of the National Assembly. I know a lot of you are constituents from the education sector, and we are happy that you are here to support your budget. You are all welcome. [Applause.]







Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  1












Debate on Vote No 15 – Higher Education and Training:


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, I greet my Cabinet colleagues who are with me here today, the Deputy Minister of Higher Education and Training, honMduduziManana, the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training, Comrade PinkyPhosa, hon Members of Parliament, the director-general and staff of our department, all the heads and executives of all our postschool organisations and institutions who are present here today, employer and business representatives, my wife, uPhumelele – ...





... ehhe, ngiganiwe– ... [yes, I am married – ...]




... honoured guests, my special guests who are up there in the gallery, ladies and gentlemen, and comrades.


The agenda for the transformation of our education system was shaped by decades of struggles, including the struggle of people’s education for people’s power. This agenda was translated into government policies by the ANC government as from 1994.


On this, the 60th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, we can say that much has been done to open the doors of learning and culture. For example, black and women students are now in the majority at our universities, and the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, has spent more than R50 billion to support more than 1,5 million poor students.Another important sign that we have been making progress is the fall in dropout rates at universities. In 2005 the first-year dropout rate was 25,1%, but in 2012 it had dropped to 19,1% - a significant difference. [Applause.]However, we still have a long way to go and transformation efforts must continue uncompromisingly.


Despite the significance of symbols such as names and statues, we must not conflate these with more fundamental matters of transformation. There remains an urgent need to radically change the demographics of our professoriate; transform the curriculum and research agendas; cultivate greater awareness of Africa; eliminate racism, sexism and all other forms of unjust discrimination; improve academic success rates; and expand student support.Some institutions have made substantial progress in transforming themselves, but others have lagged behind. Focused attention by all of us is required on this matter.


This year I will pay close attention to accelerated transformation in our universities, including setting concrete targets and transformation indicators. I urge the portfolio committee to do the same. Later this year I am convening the second Higher Education Summit as part of this focus. I am also resourcing the transformation oversight committee to assist us in this regard.


On some further specific interventions in our universities, we need to say the following.


The South African university system has a good academic reputation and over 70 000 foreign students come to study here. Most of these are from Southern African Development Communitycountries and other African countries. Also, according to a study by the Centre for Development and Enterprise, only 5% of graduates are unemployed. I hope the DA is listening. Only 5% of university graduates are unemployed – not the kinds of figures that you try to throw around.[Applause.][Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. Can we please allow the speaker to be heard? [Interjections.]


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Although we don’t encourage our universities to chase international rankings that may not reflect South Africa’s developmental needs, it is still gratifying to note that in the recent QS World University Rankings by Subject seven of the country’s universities cumulatively appear 15 times among the top 100 globally across the disciplines.Nonetheless, it is also true that some of our historically disadvantaged institutions still perform substantially below par.


The violence against foreign nationals has caused harm to our country. It is essential, therefore, that foreign students and staff feel safe at our institutions. I have written to all the vice-chancellors to ask them to be vigilant in this regard.


Our university education system is expected to grow from a headcount enrolment of 983 698 students in 2013 to 1,1 million in 2019. We confidently expect to achieve the target of 1,6 million students by 2030, as per the National Development Plan and our White Paper.

On the basis of the report of my committee on the review of university funding, I established a technical team to draft a revised funding framework. I have already accepted some of the recommendations, including the implementation of a historically disadvantaged institutions development grant of R2,05 billion over the next five-year period. [Applause.] This should enable these institutions to become financially stable and improve the quality of their governance, teaching, learning and research.


We are also investigating the cost drivers in higher education to better understand the reasons for fee increases.I see the President of the SA Students Congress, Sasco.






The SefakoMakgathoHealthSciencesUniversity opened in January 2015 with more than 5 000 students, when it incorporated the Medunsa Campus of the University of Limpopo. It was officially launched by President Zuma on 14 April 2015 – my birthday. [Laughter.] As a comprehensive health and allied sciences university, it is the first of its kind in South Africa and will offer a broad range of programmes from higher certificates to PhDs. [Interjections.]I can see the DA are still conference drunk. That’s why they are so noisy! You are like little children. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]


One of the highest priorities in the postschool system is the quality of teaching and learning. My department is supporting universities through a number of programmes. These include the expansion of foundation provisioning programmes to assist underprepared students.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chair, I rise on a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Minister, please take your seat. Yes, honMpontshane. What is the point of order?


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chair, I’m terribly sorry to interrupt the Minister, but would the Minister also refer to the leadership of other student formations, like the SA Democratic Students Movement, Sadesmo?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mpontshane, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Please take your seat. Hon Minister, please proceed.


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I hope Sadesmo is also happy when I mention the issue of confronting fee increases!

These programmes supporting universities also include the development of teaching and learning; investing in university infrastructure, with most of the funding going to historically disadvantaged institutions; and disability and maintenance audits to improve accessibility for student and staff with disabilities.


Last year, I committed to focusing on developing educators at all levels. This year, my department will implement a programme to strengthen universities’ capacity to produce quality teachers for all subsectors of education, including early childhood development, primary education, college education and training, and education for learners with special needs. This includes the training of academics.


As committed to in 2014, I recently approved the Staffing South Africa’s Universities Framework – a comprehensive approach to building capacity and developing future generations of academics and to increasing the number of highly capable black and women academics at all levels.Hon Chair and honmembers, unless we make specific interventions to attract young, black and women academics, we are not going to change the professoriate in this country, going forward. I hope that all our universities will collaborate with us on this important project.


For the 2015 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, the budget of the Department of Higher Education and Training, excluding direct charges, projects increases over three years at an annual average rate of 5,9%, from R39 billion in 2014-15 to R46,3 billion in 2017-18. The amount of R41,8 billion for 2015-16 is an increase of R2,8 billion, or 7,3%, on the 2014-15 allocation.


Direct charges, which represent the skills levies for Sector Education and Training Authorities and the National Skills Fund, are expected to increase at an annual average rate of 9,5% from R13,2 billion in 2014-15 to R17,4 billion in 2017-18. And to that, cheers! [Applause.]


Disabled people have not been fairly treated in our country – we must admit that – despite lots of work having been done by government. On our side, as postschool education and training, I have appointed a committee that will look into mainstreaming issues of disability in the entire postschool education and training system.Our Deputy Minister will say more about that.


Under the previous Budget Vote of the department I committed to expanding adult education and establishing nine community education and training colleges. Nine community colleges administrative centres were established in all provinces on 1 April 2015, allowing for the merger of existing public adult learning centres with community colleges. These colleges will be a new type of institution, catering initially for those who do not qualify for admission to technical vocational education and training colleges or universities, including those who never went to school.


The community colleges will prepare students for the labour market or for self-employment, as well as offering the National Senior Certificate for Adults and the General Education and Training Certificate for Adults. Pilot community colleges will be established in 2016, although the exact number has not yet been determined. Thereafter, the colleges will be progressively rolled out in all provinces.


Since 1994 adult education has been located at the directorate level in both national and provincial departments. Yet we estimate that there are 18 million South Africans who need adult education and training. This is larger than our schooling, university and Tvet college systems combined.I will therefore establish a branch on adult education and community colleges in my department, which will be headed by a deputy director-general. [Applause.]


Technical vocational education and training college enrolments have more than doubled over the past five years and will continue to increase, targeting 725 000 headcount enrolments this year, an increase of just over 39 000 on 2014. The pace of growth will now be reduced, however, to focus on quality improvements, including: reviewing the policy for the National Certificate (Vocational); lecturer development, and improving student academic success; college improvement plans; and capacity building initiatives for student representative councils.


Last year, I committed to building new college campuses and establishing a foundation programme in mathematics and science. A comprehensive proposal on the foundation programme is now complete. Construction work at three of the 12 planned new Tvet college campuses is underway, and later this year we will take delivery of the Thabazimbi campus. Brand new!I also committed to the transfer of all Tvet colleges and adult education staff to my department, and this indeed happened on 1 April 2015. [Applause.]


We have now grown from a department of fewer than 1 000, to close on 40 000 staff members, and we say welcome to the new members of Team DHET. [Applause.]


We continue to make steady progress in catching up on the NCV certification backlog. Chair, 496 544 certificates have been issued since 2012, with 103 000 certificates still being processed. The students affected by the problem do have statements of results, so this does not hold them back from further study or employment as they can get a letter from the department that confirms that they comply with the requirements for the certificate.



... ngobaasizifuniizitifiketizomgunyathinabantuabathibanezitifiketibebebengenazo. Kungakosifunaukwenzaisiqinisekosokuthilezizitifiketiezingakaphumibab’uMpontshanesiyazikhiphangobasingumnyangoothandaabantu. [Ihlombe.]



Since its inception as the Tertiary Education Fund of South Africa, Tefsa, we have awarded, as I have said, lots of bursaries and loans to students.


For the 2015-16 financial year, the NSFAS budget from the department comprises R4,9 billion for university study loans, R2,2 billion for technical and vocational training college bursaries, and R148 million for administration costs. This is supplemented by recovered funds and donor allocations, making up a total of R9,5 billion.


I have invited three university students and eightTvet students who have benefited from NSFAS to be with us today, and I welcome them warmly. [Applause.] I have done this so you can see that NSFAS assists real human beings, not things that do not exist. [Interjections.]



I-EFF ayithulengobaayaziukuthingikhulumangani. [Uhleko.] Aniyazikwalentoengikhulumangayo. [Ubuwelewele.]



The alignment of education to the labour market remains essential to skills development. Work placement of learners in colleges has increased over the past few years. While this is not a compulsory part of the qualification, we believe it has a significant benefit for students and improves their chances of employment.


The department has developed an on-line registration system for students seeking work-integrated learning or work-based learning opportunities and for employers who wish to provide training opportunities for students. This system will go live by 1 October 2015.


We have been centrally involved in skills development for and through the country’s strategic integrated projects, SIPs. In my previous budget speech I committed to publishing and launching a Skills forand through SIPs report. Today we are releasing a progress report on what has been done on this score. I hope than hon members went through our exhibition and managed to get a few.


Our Deputy Minister is going to talk a bit about artisan development. I am not going to talk about that.


On the Setas, when the Setas were established,there was insufficient regulation and each Seta operated in isolation. Over the past five years we have sought to improve this situation. A lot has been improved, but a lot more still needs to be done.


This year we are reviewing the skills development system, and I am going to Cabinet for the endorsement of a consultation document, for purposes of relicensing the Setas next year. We are on course and we are making progress.



Siyaqhuba. Siyasebenza. [Ihlombe.]



We are also developing a National Plan for Postschool Education and Training, which will consolidate our work towards 2030. We will be finalising this work by March 2017.

This financial year I will introduce the Higher Education Amendment Bill, as well as amendments to the Skills Development Act. These amendments also aim to strike an appropriate balance between institutional autonomy and public accountability of universities.


Over the past year various draft policies and reports aimed at accelerating transformation have been published. These include the Social Inclusion Policy Framework, Recognition of Prior Learning Policy, and the SA Qualifications Authority principles on articulation.


By the way, this includes instructing SAQA to take up the fight against fake qualifications, as well as against those who claim that they have qualifications which they do not have. [Interjections.]We want to establish a naming and shaming list so that those who have lied about their qualifications are never ever again employed in the Public Service. [Applause.]


I would like to conclude by thanking all the staff of our institutions for their efforts. I would also like to thank employers that are opening their workplaces for training.


I am grateful to the Deputy Minister, Mr MduduziManana, the staff of the Department of Higher Education and Training led by the Director-General, Mr GwebsQonde, my personal staff in the Ministry and our public entities.


Also allow me to thank the chairperson of the portfolio committee for always working co-operatively with us and holding us to account as well. It is not the DA that holds us to account; it is the portfolio committee led by Ms PinkyPhosa. We don’t account to the DA; we account to Parliament. [Applause.]


Finally, my sincere gratitude also goes to the President and my Cabinet colleagues for their support. I would also like to thank my family for their continuous encouragement. Together we will move South Africa forward through the provision of quality and affordable postschool education and training.



Siyaqhubasiyasebenza. [Ihlombe.] [Ubuwelewele.] Sihlaloi-EFF kusafanelesiyiphindiseleesikoleni, njengobasakhazonkelezizintosakhelakhonaukuthiihambeiyofundaukuthiyinilezizintoesikhulumangazo. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much, Minister, for making our work easier – you were on time.



















Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  2









Mrs Y N PHOSA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and other Ministers present here this afternoon, honDeputy Minister of Higher Education and Training and other Deputy Ministers present, honMembers of Parliament, Director-General of the Department of Higher Education and Training and other directors-general present, officials from the Department of Higher Education and Training, chairpersons of councils, chairpersons and CEOs of public entities, esteemed guests, and ladies and gentlemen, let me start by expressing a word of gratitude to the Minister of Higher Education and Training, hon Dr Blade Nzimande, for having presented to this august House a comprehensive policy and budget speech that responds to key directives contained in the January 8 statement of the ruling party, the ANC.


Your presentation also responds adequately to the needs of our communities as expressed in the overwhelming mandate that the ANC obtained from the people of South Africa in the 2014 national elections.


From our analysis of the relevant documents, including your annual performance plan, your submission is in line with priorities listed in the 2015 state of the nation address by the President of the Republic of South Africa, His Excellency, Mr Jacob GedleyihlekisaZuma. It is also aligned to the budget speech delivered by the hon MrNhlanhla Nene, the Minister of Finance.


Let me remind the House of what President Zuma said on January 8 this year, which captures the essence of the policy and plans of the ANC and government on education. Understanding what was said will assist this House to appreciate how the budget that is before us will add to the efforts made in the last 21 years to take the country closer to the ideal enshrined in the Freedom Charter, which is that, and I quote, “The Doors of Learning and Culture shall be Opened!”


The President said and I quote:


Education continues to be our number one priority. The ANC has made great strides in ensuring that education and training is available to all and in addressing the injustices of the past.


Some of the priorities pronounced by the President - most of which have been operationalised already – are the opening of three new universities; the construction of 12 new technical vocational education and training colleges; the refurbishing of two Tvet campuses; and, lastly, the improvement of infrastructure at higher education institutions.


The Department of Higher Education and Training 5-Year Strategic Plan, the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework and the APP are aligned with these priorities. The priorities highlighted by the President and those listed by the Minister of Finance are precisely what the country yearns for and what we must continue to pursue. This is what we bore in mind when we interrogated and evaluated the submission made by the hon Dr Nzimande to the committee.


Let me commend the hon Dr Nzimande for the good work done by his department, and the significant progress made by it. In the short space of six years and building on the good foundation laid from 1994, the department has made a huge impact ... [Interjections.] ... in the country. The decision by the ANC-led government to separate basic education from higher education and training was wise and correct, and beneficial to the people of South Africa.


Sixteen days ago we commemorated the 21st anniversary of our democracy on Freedom Day. Freedom and education are intrinsically linked. This was eloquently expressed by Mr Kofi Annan, the former Secretary-General of the United Nations, when he said and I quote: “On its foundation rest the cornerstones of freedom, democracy and sustainable human development.”


While cherishing our hard-earned freedom, we must always remember that this was attained partly due to assistance from the people and leaders of many African countries during our bleak days of apartheid. I therefore add my voice to those of the millions who have expressed their condemnation of what appears to be xenophobia in our country. Many of those were acts of violence and criminality against foreign nationals.


Let me add my humble advice to members of this august House to note the assessment and clear directives given in various forums by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of South Africa, and request that we all commit to ensuring that the issue of violence against foreign nationals is kept on our collective agendas until it is permanently resolved.


In this regard it is worth noting that the hon Minister Dr Nzimande and the higher education sector in general have played a part in quelling xenophobic attacks, afrophobia and acts of criminality. Praise also goes to students at various institutions of learning for staging solidarity marches and for throwing their weight behind our brothers and sisters, including the over 70 000 students and thousands of lecturers from outside our borders.


According to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, education is a human right with immense power to transform a nation. The founding President of our democracy, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, put it succinctly when he said, and I quote: “Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.”


When it comes to service delivery, specifically in the Higher Education and Training sphere, it is imperative that we align our efforts with what is articulated very clearly in the Freedom Charter. The ANC government regards this alignment as a constitutional imperative.


The 2015 state of the nation address states clearly, and I quote:


During this year of the Freedom Charter and Unity in Action to Advance Economic Freedom, we rededicate ourselves to unity and hard work, to ensure continuous success in our beautiful country.


This means that, as we celebrate its 60th anniversary this year, the Freedom Charter has to become the light that illuminates our paths in our endeavour to continue navigating towards increased access to quality education, ensuring equity and redressing inequality.


The Freedom Charter further states that:


Higher education and technical training shall be opened to all by means of state allowances and scholarships awarded on the basis of merit;


Objective analysis and research indicate that the ANC-led government has done reasonably well in ensuring that more people have access to education. The White Paper for Post-School Education and Training emphasises the importance of both access to and quality of education, and these are reflected in the department’s annual performance plan and the proposed budget before us.


The democratic government under the leadership of the ANC has doubled university enrolments in the past 20 years, from 420 000 to 900 000. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Over 205 000 university students and over 200 000 Tvet college students are currently funded by the government through the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, and bursaries provided by the department.

While we welcome the increase in the intake of students, we urge higher education institutions to continue providing quality education and skills relevant and responsive to our economy.


While we appreciate the NSFAS funding, we condemn in the strongest terms the alleged irregularities and acts of corruption related to the NSFAS. [Interjections.] We commend the honMinister for having instituted forensic investigations to put a stop to these heinous acts.


We reiterate our call for the private sector to continue utilising the resources at their disposal in order to be an instrument of change and to support higher education. By responding to these, the private sector will be promoting economic growth. [Time expired.][Interjections.]













Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  3









The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! I would now like to ask the honBozzoli to speak. I hope that the Deputy Chief Whip will do the orientation next time so that members know where they must sit when they have to speak. Hon Bozzoli.


Prof B BOZZOLI: Hon Chairperson, thanks for that tip.


Higher education has been in the news. With Rhodes falling, Hitler rearing his ugly head, and the DA winning the Fort Hare SRC elections, ... [Applause.] ... our universities are churning out the headlines. We prefer to indulge in spectacle rather than to tackle the hard issues of educational practice.


What quality of education are our students getting? This question is hardly ever explored. And, what could be more important to the future of our country than the quality education of our youth.


The budget going directly to our 25 universities, which between them will teach over 1,1 million students, is R23 billion. We know that this is insufficient. Even other far poorer African countries give universities 20% of what our basic education gets. This would translate here to about R40 billion.


Our university sector is neglected in the extreme. There are three effects of this institutionalised meanness and lack of enlightened leadership.


Firstly, the system can’t truly modernise. With a few exceptions, our universities and our colleges are behind the times. Many of them have dated courses which do not address the most advanced thinking, or the most sophisticated contemporary skills. And research is funded at levels which are laughable by international standards.


Secondly, the system can’t pursue excellence. Those teaching in our universities and colleges are ground down. Their salaries are abysmal. They are demotivated by the treadmill created as class sizes balloon and the quality of matriculants deteriorates.


The government has no hesitation in cramming more and more students into this sector. They know where their votes come from! But is there ever any additional funding to pay for more lecturers? No! Why not?If a school expands, the government allocates more teachers, but if a university doubles in size, it just has to build bigger lecture halls, and the teaching load of each academic doubles instead. This would never be tolerated in any unionised sector of the economy.


Our permanent university staff-to-student ratio has grown in the past 20 years from 1:38 in 1994, to 1:55 in 2014. [Interjections.] In the UK it is 1 to 17. We really are a joke internationally speaking.


Even worse, in real terms the university subsidy per student head has gone down over the past 21 years from R20 000 to R16 000. Our universities are slowly being squeezed to death. [Interjections.]


Thirdly, the system can’t afford new blood. The system is so underfunded that it can’t afford to bring on board a new cohort of professors and lecturers. I repeat, the system can’t afford to do it, Why?


Firstly, academic salaries are too low. What self-respecting young professional would stay in a lecturing job where they may earn less than a rock drill operator? The answer is, none.


Secondly, the costs of PhD training are high. Becoming an academic takes 10 to 12 years of full-time education after school. This rarely happens here – there is no money for it. No wonder there is an outcry on this matter from academics. In this the government plays a mean game.


The Minister frequently and publicly bullies our most distinguished vice chancellors and our older academics in the very universities that he is there to champion. However, it is the older generation of academics that are valiantly keeping the system going under the present appalling financial conditions. When they retire, there will be nobody to take their place. In the last 21 years the ANC government has done nothing to fund the production of a new generation of academics. [Interjections.]


Even in Botswana students have long been sent, their expenses paid for, to obtain PhD training in the US and the UK. On their return they have been guaranteed new state-funded posts. Botswana now has a competent and experienced local academic cohort. [Interjections.] Rwanda has a scheme to fund the international training of their brightest and best. Billions have been put by this and other African countries into fast-tracking the next generation into university teaching.


The ANC-led government is squarely to blame for the failure of this country to produce a new generation of academics. [Interjections.] [Applause.]


This budget contains within it funding for a new scheme which the Minister may think is our equivalent. Chairperson, I say to the Minister that his scheme, which was not even his own idea, is too little and far too late. No new funding has been voted for it. This is the case with dozens of innovations that Minister Nzimande introduces. Shame to the Minister and to the Treasury for their disingenuousness!


What we in the DA envisage is a multibillion-rand higher education development initiative, like that put forward by China in the 1980s, by Russia in 2010, and by India with their renowned Indian Institutes of Technology, IITs. Such a scheme should significantly and permanently raise university subsidies and salaries. It should put hundreds of promising young graduates into the best international universities to get PhDs, with guaranteed state-funded positions upon their return.


If we do this, within ten years we will have a new generation of outstanding scholars in our universities, we will attract back some of the demoralised professionals who have left universities, and higher education will be able to pursue excellence.


Minister, please don’t tell us about transformation in universities until you have done a bit of transformation of your own budget. [Applause.] We do not support this budget. It is grossly insufficient for the purpose. In fact, it is an insult to the young people of this country. Thank you. [Applause.]

















Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  4









Mr M S MBATHA: Hon House Chair, to all the SRCs under the control of the EFF leadership across the country ... [Interjections.] ... and to our fighters at home, greetings.


Since this is the year of the Freedom Charter, I can hardly say anything good about our higher education system. All that I can say is that “the doors of learning and of culture (are not) opened”.


Here are the statistics. The University of KwaZulu-Natal received 90 000 applications from students seeking positions and admission, but it could only admit 8 400. The University of Zululand received 71 000 applications, but could only admit 3 900 students. The University of the Witwatersrand received 54 000 applications, but could only admit 6 400 students.This is the sad story of what has become of higher education in South Africa.


Minister, according to your own inflated statistics, you claim that there are over 425 000 opportunities available for further education in South Africa every year. However, the reality of the matter is that we have 600 000 young people who write matric, and close to 300 000whodropout of the system. There are also those who have passed with 30%, those who have dropped out between Grade 10 and Grade 12, and hundreds of thousands who have been rejected in previous years. The combination of this confusion leads to joblessness, unemployment and the frustrations of entering higher education in South Africa today. [Interjections.]


This means that every year in South Africa there are about one million young people looking for opportunities. This is a story of shattered dreams. No matter what you say, Minister, our universities still do not have the capacity to absorb the students that are produced by the basic education system every year, thereby contributing to massive unemployment, crime and other general illsin our society. So, whatever you see as the outside of society represents the outside of what we cannot offer our own people.


The second crisis faced by the postsecondary schooling sector is that even for those that get admitted to the universities there are no proper support systems. They go into lecture halls where they are not properly supported; they have no books; they have no proper accommodation; they have no proper support for tuition fees; and, most disgustingly, they attend classes without having eaten any food. Minister, this is an example of what you have done at one university. [Interjections.]


At the University of Limpopo the SRC that is controlled by the EFF has spent its money for operations on supporting every poor and hungry student, to the value of R26 000 a day, while your Sasco-controlled SRCs are having bashes and parties. [Interjections.]


The less said about the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, the better. However, let me mention the following facts. Minister, no matter how you grow it, the reality of your NSFAS is that it still funds half of the deserving students, in particular the poor, working-class students. What is also glaring ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mbatha, your time has expired. [Interjections.]


Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Minister, we thought that your communist background ... [Interjections.] ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mbatha, ...


Mr M S MBATHA: ... would lead us to free education.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): ... your time is up. [Interjections.]


Mr M S MBATHA: However, your communist background has been a letdownfor higher education. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza):Mbatha.


Mr M S MBATHA: We miss Blade the communist, ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member!


Mr M S MBATHA: ... not the Blade you are – you have been swallowed! We need free education now! [Time expired.] [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A TDidiza): Order,hon member! Hon members, may I appeal to all of you? You have been given your allocated time as different parties and members. On your left you also have the clock with which you can time yourself. I ask all of you to assist us.






Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  4










Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Sihlalo, uNgqongqoshe, nabanyeoNgqongqoshebeminyeiminyango.



Hon Chairperson, today I want to focus on one theme, because in my view it constitutes the current narrative at the institutions of higher learning.


We have heard and still hear a cacophony of voices clamouring for “transformation” – a big word. These voices call for transformation, inter alia, in the curriculum, symbols, language of tuition, profile of personnel, financing of students and student accommodation.


However, when we hear all these calls we must not assume that the concept, transformation, is understood in the same way by all its users; otherwise there would be no resistance to it in my view.

Transformation is not ideologically neutral. Transformation requires a total break with the past, especially if that past is as troublesome as ours was. We also need to know what ideological foundations will underpin the type of transformation we want.


However ideologically different we are, a balanced view on transformation, vision and mission can be achieved. We have a precedent. During the Convention for a Democratic South Africa, Codesa, talks, though ideologically different, we reached a settlement.


However, hon Minister, we need to prepare ourselves. Take, for example, the call for curriculum transformation. There is a call to change from a Eurocentric to an Africanised curriculum. Even here we do not have the same understanding.


The question, however, is whether we have enough well-qualified academics and lecturers to lead thisAfricanisation of the curriculum? Without the right people in the right places the whole drive for curriculum transformation becomes useless. Hon Minister, we do not need another Outcomes-Based Education, OBE, situation, where things ended in disaster.


Superficial changes to institutions, such as name changes, do not in themselves address the fundamental lack of radical transformation. Successful transformations need strong and focused leadership. This type of leadership is there, I presume, in our tertiary institutions. Together with the Ministry, this leadership can hold a successful transformation indaba. Hon Minister, I am glad that you have already mentioned in your speech that you are thinking of convening one.


Transformation must, in fact, start right at the level of teacher training. The calibre of teachers that will be needed to take transformation ideals forward must be improved. The best way to do this will be to redesign the way we train our teachers. We must do away with the training of first-time teachers through distance learning, which phenomenon we witness atUnisa in Durban, which I often drive past. It’s a sad sight. Transformation ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A TDidiza): Hon Mpontshane, your time has expired.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: The IFP, however, supports the budget. I thank you. [Applause.]








Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  4








Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chairperson and hon members, as a country we cannot afford to fall behind the pace of social development in higher education and training, lest we sit with a situation akin to the current energy crisis, in years to come of course. Every year our population grows, more learners pass matric than before and more learners qualify for admission to various institutions of higher learning. If we do not build and expand capacity now to match the pace of social development, South Africa may well find itself with severe skills shortages in the years to come.


The NFP is concerned about the slow pace of progress with regard to the revitalisation and expansion of the role of technical vocational education and training colleges within the overall context of higher education and training. Hon Minister, we note that there is a slight increase with regard to the budget for Tvet colleges, but what is important is how we match these Tvet colleges, and what is taught within them, with the workplace.


Of course, there is also what the department and Tvet colleges are doing to track the students who have graduated from Tvet colleges. Where do they go to? Are they employed? That is an issue that we need to attend to, because to me that is important. Do they fall by the wayside? What happens to them after graduation?


Our biggest concern, however, remains the failure of NSFAS to bridge the gap between the educational injustices of the past and the skills needs of our country.


We note that there have been a plethora of issues and challenges in the higher education and training sector, and we can mention them. They have to do with accommodation and NSFAS funding that does not come on time. Most of the students who go to register find themselves sleeping on the streets, especially in big cities. For instance, a case in point is Unisa. One finds students in long queues leading into the streets, thereby exposing them to danger. These are the issues we have to face if we want to correct the situation.


The NFP recognises that there are plans to adapt NSFAS to the new student-centred model, but we remain concerned about the implementation thereof. We believe that the administrative bureaucracy which bedevils NSFAS’s assistance reaching students is a major contributing factor to the low graduation and high dropout rate. Financial exclusion of deserving students because of NSFAS’s failure is a damning shame which the department must address as a matter of urgency.


Hon Minister, I was shocked at some point to hear that ... [Inaudible.] ... students were tabling their concerns, but they were beaten and found themselves outside the institution. I must say also, hon Minister, that we have to fill vacant posts. That must be attended to. [Time expired.] Thank you.
















Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  5












Ms S MCHUNU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, honMinisters and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, the department, academia and distinguished guests in the gallery, I greet you.


Let me say at the outset that we as the ANC support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]


Hon members, “Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world” – so said our late President.


His Excellency, President Jacob Zuma, on behalf of the ANC, declared 2015 the Year of the Freedom Charter and Unity in Action to Advance Economic Freedom. The ANC government has realised that economic freedom cannot be achieved without quality higher education, consistent with the Freedom Charter’s clause that says,“The doors of learning and of culture shall be opened!” and with the Bill of Rights in our Constitution, which categorically states that“everyone has the right ... to further education”.


The ANC-led government has progressively invested in postschool education, in order to free our people from the triple challenge of poverty, unemployment and inequality. Members, given the fiscal constraints explained by the chairperson earlier, I think that we should welcome every increase in the budget. The university sector has been allocated R32,8 billion in the 2015-16 financial year, an increase of 7,9% in nominal terms.


The bulk of this budget will be spent on Subprogramme 6: University Subsidies, which is meant for transfers to universities, the Council on Higher Education, CHE, the South African Qualifications Authority, SAQA, and the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS.


The National Development Plan and the 2014-19 Medium-Term Strategic Framework have set goals for the university sector to achieve. Some of the goals include a targeted increase in the following areas: university enrolment; the number of artisans; PhD graduates; number of entry academic staff receiving teaching and research development grant; and increased number of black entrants in order to transform the historical and social composition of the academic workforce, to mention but a few.

We hope that through subsidies from the department, income generated through third stream funding, and student fees, these targets will be achieved incrementally.


Hon members, in our engagements with Higher Education South Africa,Hesa,the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, and Statistics SA in order to get a deep insight into the adequacy of funding in the sector, they all expressed concerns regarding underfunding.


Let me commend the department for opening the three new universities and the provision of over R2 billion for the infrastructure development grant to the historically disadvantaged universities.These measures are welcome developments if we are to address the social imbalances of the past.


Let me welcome the visionary leadership of our Minister in the establishment of the National Institute for Humanities and Social Sciences. We hope to see growth in the enrolment of students in a variety of postgraduate programmes, and an increase in PhD graduates and research publications.


Hon members, the funding that has been made available for the development of African languages is welcomed. However, what is of great concern is that few universities applied for this funding. We therefore call upon all universities to take the opportunity made available by the department in promoting African languages.


Let us commend our universities for their achievements thus far. Among these achievements are the following:the increased gross enrolment ratio in terms of race groups in the system;the increase in research output in terms of postgraduate students and publications; and the increase in the number of PhDs.


Our universities are producing world-class,groundbreaking research. We are therefore grateful to the Departments of Higher Education and Training, and of Science and Technology for publicising this, for the nation to know that South African higher education is taking its place in the world of knowledge production. [Applause.]


Universities have appreciated the financial assistance from the department in the form of infrastructure and efficiency grants. We have seen developments in the expansion of lecture halls, laboratories, libraries and student accommodation, to mention but a few.


Despite achievements identified, we want to acknowledge that we still have challenges, and they include, firstly, NSFAS funding.Despite the fact that the department has over the years increased NSFAS funding, the ever-increasing tuition fees pose a challenge. In the eyes of the students NSFAS funding is inadequate. The question therefore is: Is it really the shortage of funds for NSFAS or the ever-increasing tuition fees, which in many cases are way above the inflation rate? [Applause.]Hon Mbatha, this puts a strain on our efforts to increase access to postschool education. Nevertheless, NSFAS continues to be an enabler of access to and success in higher education and training.


On student accommodation, we acknowledge that it is a challenge in our higher education institutions. We welcome interventions by the department and, of course, universities are making available a matching fund for funding infrastructure for student accommodation. However, there is still a shortfall. We are calling upon the department to move with speed, as the accommodation is crucial for student retention, performance and success.


We want to further commend the department for organising the student accommodation symposium that will be held on 22 June 2015, where all the stakeholders will get an opportunity to engage with this. We hope that in these discussions a lasting solution will be found.


Members, we are also concerned about the misrepresentation of national and foreign qualifications. We urge the Minister to deal with this problem and we know that he has already started to do so.


The Minister has also touched on the high dropout rate.


I want to speak about transformation, which remains a challenge in higher education institutions. We note that universities have put policies in place to address issues of transformation and equity in both student enrolment and staff compliments. It is of great concern that after 20 years of democracy some of our institutions continue to be exclusive or exclusionary.


The committee visited the North WestUniversity, Potchefstroom Campus, last year. It was sad to listen to the experiences of black students and staff at the campus. The hegemony of the Afrikaans language, as the language of transaction in the whole campus, alienates the nonspeakersof the language. The committee was also concerned about the demeaning initiation practices that are still observed at the campus. The apartheid racial divide continues, even in the presence of all transformation policies.


The racial tendencies are not unique to the North WestUniversity. Other incidents were recorded at the University of Pretoria and StellenboschUniversity. Our university councils and management need to spread the spirit of oneness and social cohesion. As the NDP clearly says,“Universities are key to developing a nation.” [Interjections.] Again, the ANC supports the budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]























Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  6













The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, Minister of Higher Education and Training Dr Nzimande, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, chairperson of the portfolio committee, members of the portfolio committee and all Members of Parliament, director-general and staff of the department, heads and executives of all our post-school entities and institutions, employer and business representatives, my family and friends, the public gallery, honoured guests, our special guests, comrades and friends, it gives me great pleasure to address this House today on the occasion of the tabling of the Budget Vote of the Department of Higher Education and Training.


Today we and many of our portfolio organisations and institutions have converged on the City of Cape Town. We are here, not to revel in just another annual pastime, but with increased confidence, believing that our new experiences, the exciting achievements scored and the instructive failures and setbacks encountered have equipped us to navigate the terrain ahead of us much more wisely and with tactful thinking.


Last year we declared 2014-24 the Decade of the Artisanand launched it with the sole aim of creating a pipeline of qualified artisans who can play a crucial role in growing the emerging sectors of our economy and in turn create massive employment for our youth.


To this end we remain steadfast in our work of elevating the status and profile of artisans in the country. Our convictionto see our technical vocational education and training colleges becoming institutions of first choice remains unfazed, and our robust and frank engagements with employers to open up their workplaces for our artisan learners to gain workplace exposure remain uninterrupted.


To further build impetus in the work we are doing on the artisan front, this year we will participate in the WorldSkills International Competition 2015 for the first time as a fully fledged affiliate ofWorldSkills International. [Applause.]In the public gallery today we have 21 young South Africans who will be going with me to Brazil in August this year to compete against young people from over 72 countries. They will compete in 19 artisanal skills areas. [Applause.] These young people were selected at our inaugural WorldSkills SA National Competition that took place here in Cape Townin January this year. These competitions are another way of harnessing our energies to the Decade of the Artisan and they are sure to contribute meaningfully to the overall economic growth of our country.


When I spoke in this august House a year ago, I pledged that this department would direct all its efforts towards creating skills opportunities for our youth, especially those who still live in the most rural and remote areas of our country. We are back in the House this afternoon to report back on what we have done and what we intend doing as we go into the future.


Hon Chairperson, our Sector Education and Training Authorities are making sound interventions in communities with dire distress by skilling young people so that they are, in turn, eligible for employment. In the last financial year a total number of 175 562 young people entered learning programmes. These are young people who would have otherwise been disgruntled, but they have since regained their confidence and many of them are now in employment. A further 244 069 young people will be trained over the next year.


We are also intensifying our internship programme, and perhaps it is worth mentioning that in the 2014-15 financial year the department took over 130 interns from universities and colleges, and we intend taking another 160 over the 2015-16 financial year. We urge all government departments and portfolio agencies and entities, as well as the private sector, to intensify their efforts and especially consider taking up interns from our Tvet colleges.


The Higher Education and Training HIV/Aids Programmeis continuing to implement comprehensive programmes to respond to the impact of the dual epidemics of HIV/STIs and TB in the higher education and training sector. Today we report with a sigh of relief, confident that the measures we have put in place will result in better returns on investment and better student throughput rates.


I will continue in the coming year with activation programmes promoting HIV testing and TB screening, targeting our rural and township universities and college campuses. In the last financial year we managed to test over 101 000 students and staff for HIV, and screened another 92 000 for TB and 81 000 for STIs. [Applause.] In this financial year our target is to test and screen 170 000 students and staff, but we will also be making sure that those who test positive are put on treatment, and are given care and support. There is no doubt, hon members, that only a healthy nation will breed a healthy economy.


The Apply Now campaign is now being implemented across the rural and township schools in the country. We are disseminating information on the need for matriculants to apply in time to institutions of higher learning. We have partnered with the Department of Basic Education in the training of life orientation teachers and in the distribution of the Apply Now booklets to all Grade 12 learners across the 6 000 high schools in the country. Since the launch of Apply Now in 2012 we have managed to minimise walk-ins and long queues at our institutions of higher learning, especially at the beginning of every academic year.


One of my special guests today is NosiphoNdlovu, who wrote to me in March this year, and said:


Deputy Minister, it was only after your visit to our school atDiepsloot in May 2013 that I got encouraged to apply on time to three universities, as per your advice. I got accepted by the University of Cape Town and I’m now pursuing my second year in Civil Engineering funded by NSFAS. [Applause.] I really wasted no time and thanks to DHET for making my dreams come true.



Siyakubongelanathi, Nosipho, sengathiungaqhubekakahlenezifundozakhozobunjiniyela.



Last year we launched the Social Inclusion Policy Framework which will, amongst other social inclusion issues, advocate for the establishment of disability units in postschool education and training institutions, and also address the important issues of reasonable accommodation and access for students with disabilities.


Notwithstanding these advances, the department continues to fund students with disabilities in regard to their tuition, assistive devices and other personal needs like accommodation and transport. I will be intensifying the campaign of visiting special schools in the country to promote postschool opportunities for persons with disabilities, as well as funding opportunities. [Applause.]


As a government we are convinced that if we pursue the sectors that the New Growth Path has identified as growth points, the potential of creating an inclusive economy that is on a growth trajectory is huge. There is no doubt, therefore, that young professionals and co-operatives in particular must come into this space, so that together we create this inclusive economy that we are all yearning for.


We have seen many co-operatives being established in our country but very few succeed, and we attribute this failure to a lack of training in areas such as co-operatives management, financing and conflict resolution, amongst other things. I have asked the director-general and the department to investigate the possibility and the implications of establishing the country’s first co-operatives academy, and I will report to this House in due course on the progress we are making in this area. [Applause.]


Also, during this year, we will start with the piloting of e-learning at selected teaching and learning delivery sites as part of our response to a wave of dynamic education sector reforms specifically related to the adoption of educational technologies to enhance teaching and learning practices, education management, research and administration. Indeed,siyaqhuba.Siyasebenza. [we are moving forward. We are working.]


Let me take this opportunity to thank the President of the Republic of South Africa, His Excellency J G Zuma, for the trust he has shown in me and the continuous support he gives us. To Dr Nzimande, thank you for the guidance that you continue to give us, and your teamwork. To the director-general of the department, senior officials and the entire team of the department, thank you for the valour you continue to display. To the chief of staff in the Ministry, the acting head of office in my office and the entire Ministry staff, thank you for putting up with us and for forever being willing to go beyond the call of duty. To members of the portfolio committee, thank you for the sound advice and guidance you give when we need it most. To members of my family and my friends, thank you once more for the unflinching support that you continue to give me.


We are a nation with great goals. We may not reach them all this year, maybe not in this decade, but we will eventually reach them. The lesson of our history and the lesson of the last 21 years is that great goals are reached step by step – always building on our progress and always gaining ground as we build on the hope of our people.


Of course, you cannot gain ground if you are standing still. Our commitment and seriousness can only be judged by the extent to which we use our past lessons to devise better strategies and solutions to the many challenges that confront us as we forge ahead to a prosperous future. I thank you very much. [Applause.]












Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  7











Dr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ekwilvir die agb Minister en die mense van Suid-Afrikasêdat as die Minister van transformasiepraat, hyeintliksêdatdaarnieplekvir Afrikaans is by universiteitenie.


Die agb Minister het twee stellereëls. Hy het eenstelreëlsvirdaardieuniversiteitewat net Engels doseer en ’n anderstelvirdaardieuniversiteitewatnieeens net Afrikaans doseernie, maar watoorwegend Afrikaans is. Uit 38 universiteitskampusse is daar net twee kampusse – die Noordwes-Universiteit se Potchefstroomkampus, PUK, en Stellenbosch – watoorwegend Afrikaans is, nie net Afrikaans nie, maar as die media kom en hullegaanverwring ’n basiesebewegingwatdeel van ’n liedjie is deur swart en wit studente by die Noordwes-Universiteit se PUK, dan is dit die Minister wateerste ’n verklaringuitreik. Dan is dit die Minister watverteldatditeintlikniksanders is as ’n Nazi-lied nie en ditsterkveroordeel – dit, agb Minister, terwyl u weetdit was glad nie ’n Nazi-lied nie.


Dieselfde Minister swyg as die voorsitter van die studenteraad van die Universiteit van die Witwatersrand Adolf Hitler besing, vertel hoe ’n goeiemenshy is en hoe intelligent hy is. Dan is hybewusteloos. Dan is hy in ’n koma. Tot vandag toe, agb Minister, het eknogniegehoordat u ditveroordeelnie. Dan sêditmos u is bevooroordeeldteenoor die Noordwes-Universiteit se PUK.


U sêtaalmoetnie ’n hindernisweesvirstudenteom by ’n universiteittestudeernie, ten spytedaarvandatartikel 6 van die Grondwet en artikel 29(2) van die Grondwetditbaieduideliksteldatdit ’n grondwetlikereg is dat ’n persoon in symoedertaalhoëronderwyskanontvang en selfsenkelmedium-instellingswatdaardiemoedertaalkanbevorder. Dit is grondwetlik, maar u sêditmoetnie ’n hindernisweesnie. As daarnoueenuniversiteitskampus is watbeslisgesorg het datditnie ’n hindernis is nie, is dit die Noordwes-Universiteit se PUK.


Agb Minister, ekdaag u uit: Gaannou op die webadres van die Universiteit van Kaapstad. Een van die toelatingsvereistesvoorjy by die Universiteit van Kaapstadkanstudeer is datjy ’n taaltoets in Engels moetkanslaag. Met anderwoorde, die Universiteit van Kaapstadsteltaal as ’n hindernisvirsommigestudente, want as jynie die Engelsetoetsslaagnie, kanjyniestudeeraan die Universiteit van Kaapstadnie. Dis mosdubbelestandaarde – dit in ’n provinsiewaar 60% van die mense in daardieprovinsie Afrikaans praat.


Agb Minister, die meestemensewat Afrikaans praat is niewitnie. Dis bruinmense. So, u misleiuself as u dink dat as jy Afrikaans praat, moetjy wit wees – dit in hierdieprovinsie. Met anderwoorde, in die provinsie is daar ’n universiteitwattaal as ’n hindernisgebruikvirAfrikaanssprekendes as toelating tot daardieuniversiteit. U het dubbelestandaarde. Agb Minister, ekwilvandagvir u sêdat u nie die intelligensiekwosiënt van mensemoetonderskatnie.


By ’n simposium in Sandtonsê u dat u niks teen Afrikaans het nie. Agb Minister, ek het niks teen u nie, maar ekwilvir u sê die dag as u niemeer ’n Minister is nie, is Suid-Afrikabaiebeteraf. Ek dank u. [Applous.]









Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  7














Moh M F NKADIMENG: ModulasetulowaLekgotla la Ntlo yeo e hlomphegagoyaPalamente, Letona la KgoroyatšaThuto, NgakaNzimande, Motlatšaletona la KgoroyatšaThuto, MnaManana, Matonakamoka a dikgorotšammušotša go fapafapana, malokoao a hlomphegago a Ntlo ye, baengbarenabaobahlomphegago, ke a le dumediša.


Kemotlotlo go fiwasebaka se gommeke rata go tšweletšataba ye kasegagešuke re: “Kodumelamoepathutsega go lehumo le tšwagokgaufsi”. Keboe gape ke re: “Montsošabošegokemolebogabosele” gobane, moyamahlong a tau o ya a swereserumula gore a kgone go tšwetšapelemananeoaommušowo o etilwegopeleke ANC o a tšweletšagokabokgwari. Kebolelakamananeo a go swana le tswetšopeleyabokgoni (skills development).





The ANC supports the budget. The overarching vision for education that the ANC seeks to pursue is People’s Education for People’s Power. Education is an apex priority of the ANC and it is a core element of social transformation.


The National Development Plan envisages that by 2030 South Africans should have access to education and training of the highest quality. Taking as its premise the Freedom Charter clause that “the doors of learning and of culture shall be opened!”, education and training under the ANC have evolved and great advances have been attained, such as the important addressing of past injustices, and the expansion of enrolments in all postschool institutions, especially for blacks and other previously disadvantaged people.


A foundation for skills development has been laid by the ANC-led government for interventions in these areas. The legislative environment has been prepared through different laws that have been passed by Parliament and policies to facilitate interventions for skills development. The Skills Development Act and the Skills Development Levies Act, the national Human Resource Development Strategy, the National Skills Development Strategy, regulations, policies and different accords have been signed to remove all bottlenecks that have hampered the skills pipeline.

The Ministry of Higher Education and Training has developed a White Paper for Post-School Education and Training. This White Paper has built seamless pathways of education that will enable the system to connect from basic education, adult education and training, vocational training, the labour market, higher education and training, and life-long learning. Community colleges have been established to extend access to education and training for those who have been educationally disadvantaged.



Mošomo o tšhabadiatla.



Skills development is not the responsibility of one sector, but of all the sectors working together. This requires all sectors of the economy, government state-owned entities, the private sector, and institutions responsible for education and training, both public and private, to invest resources and energies in tackling the skills shortages.



“Tau tšahlokaseboka di šitwakenare e hlotša”




The 2014 ANC election manifesto committed to advancing reforms in skills development in order to ensure that employers and labour, in partnership with learning institutions,could carry out more technical and artisanal training.


We note the existence of the 2011 National Skills Accord. However, we want to see an environment where almost all employers get involved. I trust that with the good policies, infrastructure expansion, quality of the provisions of training programmes, and partnerships between skills levies sectors, training institutions and employers, we will develop like Germany. They started somewhere and learned with time.


One of the commitments of the 2011 National Skills Accord is to make internship and placement opportunities available in workplaces. This is further emphasised in the 2014-19 Medium-Term Strategic Framework, where it is said that there should be an improved interface between Setas, workplaces, and education and training institutions.The National Skills Development Strategy requires the Setas to partner with technical vocational education and training colleges to facilitate these partnerships for the purpose of placements. Let me say that this is already bearing good fruits.


Since the implementation of the accord, we have seen partnerships in the sector. Over 41 000 learners hadbeen enrolled for artisan training by 2013; over 21 500 completed artisan training by 2013; 14 161 Tvetand university of technology students were placed in workplaces; 150 learners were being trained at the Eskom School of Welding; and 34 Tvet colleges had 343 combined partnerships with industry by 2012. We know that the National Skills Fund is also hard at work funding national priorities.


I am dedicating this Budget Speech to my dearest mother who is turning 95 years old today. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
















Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  8









Ms D CARTER: Hon Chairperson, half of our population is now made up of children, teenagers and young adults born after 1990. This adds up to some 27 million born frees.


According to the Institute of Race Relations report, aptly entitled “Born free but still in chains”, unemployment amongst male and female born frees of working age is running at 67% and 75% respectively. While South Africans account for 0,77% of the world’s population, we account for 1,9% of the world’s youth unemployment.


Although Africans now account for more than two thirds of university students, only 16% of Africans between the ages of 20 and 24 are enrolled in universities. This is a sad state. Only 38% of students admitted to university are likely to obtain a three or four-year degree within five years, and some 51% are unlikely to graduate at all.


The report also notes that currently there are more youth enrolled at universities than there are enrolled at technical and vocational colleges. This should not be the case. The fact of the matter is that the majority of our colleges – and I’m calling them FET/Tvet colleges – are in a shambles. Changing the name will not cure the disease. Even you, hon Minister, have acknowledged that these colleges are not effective and that their output quality is really poor.


Mr Minister, put the Red revolutionary rhetoric aside and tell us practically how you intend to turn the situation around. You have indicated government’s desire to increase artisan and workplace training. Why is it that under the majority rule of the ruling party we always take two steps backwards and half a step to the left?


The Setas have been an abject failure. According to Statistics SA, “the ... African population in particular is not being well served by the skills development system in its current form.” Gill Marcus, the former Governor of the Reserve Bank, is recorded as saying that “the record of the Setas has been patchy at best, so that there is no coherent focus on skills training”. Let me repeat that: “there is no coherent focus on skills training”.


The NDP says there is a need to produce 30 000 artisans per year by 2030, compared to the current 13 000 artisans produced per annum. Here’s another example of two steps backwards and half a step to the left. Maybe we should try one to the right.


Subsequent to the ascendancy of the ANC regime, artisanship was effectively abandoned, without any adequate replacement having been put in place. Six months a year is not artisanship. It should be five years with all the appropriate experience that you need.As the opportunity arose post 1990 to open up the apprenticeship system to Africans, so the ANC government shut it down.


The ANC regime professes to run a developmental state, yet it appears intent on following Stalin’s policy of slashing and burning. The fact of the matter is that our born frees, our youth that entered this world in a country that then had so much hope, have been betrayed by those who promised a better future for all. How can one expect to address poverty, unemployment and inequality if one is producing born frees who lack the skills to hold gainful employment, or the skills to create their own jobs?


Hon Mbatha mentioned the sad challenges in respect of capacity and admission to universities. As Cope, we want to make a plea to you, hon Minister, that, especially when it comes to medical schools, we need 3 000 doctors at least every year, and currently the capacity is only 1 300. We really need to pay attention to trying to get more.


In conclusion, and to our born frees, please remember that “the pen is mightier than the sword”. I thank you. [Time expired.]
























Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  8









Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, other Ministers present, the department, the director-general, other entities present here today, our dignitaries in the gallery and hon members, although the ANC would clearly have wanted additional funding for this Budget Vote 15, and specifically for certain programmes, we believe that this year’s budget allocation will enable the department to achieve its 2015-16 strategic objectives, which will be a critical milestone on the road to the implementation of the National Development Plan.


Chairperson, as expected, opposition parties today focused mainly on well-known capacity challenges, institutional monitoring and budget allocation. Those were identified by the department itself and they were extensively discussed in the committee. The portfolio committee has already expressed its concern about underfunding of certain programmes. They choose to focus on a half empty glass, while we as the ANC prefer to focus on the half full glass.

The political debate in this Assembly has unfortunately largely descended into flimsy arguments interposed with doomsday rhetoric. [Interjections.] This approach not only polarises our country, but also undermines a sense of common purpose and belonging, a common identity.


However, let us focus on and not forget where we come from. Perhaps some are too young to remember ... [Interjections.] ... and others have conveniently forgotten how South Africans have overcome much more serious challenges. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Order! Order, hon members! Order!


Mrs J D KILIAN: A mere 25 years ago the world was watching to see if South Africans could avoid a full-scale civil war, and if our leaders could broker a political settlement and agree on the founding principles of our constitutional democracy, in order to proceed to credible elections for all South Africans. Surely, today’s generation owes it to the country to find practical solutions for the persistent challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment in a constructive manner.


However, let us for a moment celebrate the achievements in addressing the social injustices of the past, before 1994, when the first democratic government took over. They had to produce a master plan to eradicate the legacy of more than 350 years of colonial and apartheid rule. [Interjections.]


Since 1994, government has prioritised funding for social development, health and education, which has resulted in a significant reduction in poverty levels.


Census 2011 has confirmed that the annual household income doubled between 2001 and 2011, which is a 113% increase. No-fee school policy has resulted in a massive increase in secondary school enrolment, from 51% in 1994 to 80% currently. Young children from poor families have benefited greatly from access to no-fee education institutions.


All of this obviously increased pressure on the postschool sector, which expanded remarkably.According to the General Household Survey of Statistics SA published last year, the percentage of adults, 20 years and older, who had received a postschool education qualificationincreased from 9,3 in 2002 to 12,8%. This is progress, hon Chairperson. [Interjections.]


However, we have to look at the household and employment bulletin of 2014, which shows that we are having a serious problem with certain sectors of our community, particularly the cohorts 15 to 24 and 25 to 35, where we have altogether 3,3 million on the one hand and 4,2 million on the other, who are not in any education institution and are also not employed. Most of these people are in certain poor provinces, and we all know that. Gauteng andKwaZulu-Natal, followed by the Eastern Cape, all have these people. The majority of them are black African and there are more women than men. Chair, ... [Interjections.] Yes, I have to drink something. This underlines the very critical task of the department.


But we must also not forget what has happened in the technical vocational education and training sector over the past couple of years. The National Student Financial Aid Schemefor Further Education and Training students increased from R100 million in 2007 to R2,2 billion this year. This is significant. These are bursaries, not loans.


Enrolments in Tvet colleges have more than doubled in 12 years.Audited figures of 2012 showed that of the total enrolment of students, 88% were African. Our students have a very serious interest in vocational education and training opportunities.


There are challenges, for sure. We have to increase our throughput rates in the Tvet sector. The department has already developed capacity-building programmes for college lecturers, to enhance teaching and learning standards. Maybe the hon Carter can come to our committee and then she will understand what we are doing to address these shortfalls.


Capacity-building programmes for management and board members have also been developed, and they will be put through. Efforts will be made to improve relations between training institutions and industry. The possibilities are endless and we dare not fail the nation.


We now need to focus on quality training and practical qualifications throughout the Tvet sector, in order to build a seamless transition from training to the workplace. We could do that as a nation in 2010 during the Soccer World Cup. [Interjections.] We can do it again but, like then, we will need the active participation and commitment of the private sector, industry and employers – even from the opposition. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]









Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  9











Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Chair andhonmembers, the late founder member of the PAC, Prof Robert MangalisoSobukwe once said: “Education to us means service to Africa.”


As the PAC of Azania we believe that higher education is key to accessing knowledge for development. There is a high correlation between higher education and development. Therefore, investment in education should intensify.


We should try to have an improved education system. You must remember that the ministerial committee review reported that as a country we need R51 billion to address the challenges of underfunding in higher education, but currently the government is not funding even 10% of that.


The PAC believes that lowering tuition fees is not far-fetched. To think that a system of free education, as demanded by the Pan Africanist Student Movement of Azania, Pasma,is unrealistic would be absurd. When the government spends money on education, this grows the economy. To invest in free education would create jobs and grow the economy, and it would also provide resources.


The funds that are provided by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme do not support all the students. Parents earning more than R150 000 per annum cannot afford to have more than one child in school, yet their kids do not qualify for NSFAS. Also, a large minority of graduates get into careers that will never pay enough for them to repay their loans.


The education syllabus should be aligned so that it is skills-based. [Interjections.] Syllabus, yes. [Interjections.] Thank you! Thank you! Thank you, howlers! With the shortage of skills in our country, we as the PAC propose that theLusikisikiTeachers College, SekhukhuneCollege, TsoloAgriculturalCollege and all other training colleges in occupied Azania must be reopened.


About half of the undergraduate students drop out of the university without having completed their degrees. Universities are not only a mass servicing machine, but a place where intellectual activity, qualitative research and criticism are supposed to flourish.


Degree courses leave graduates overqualified with respect to the skills necessary for carrying out jobs. Obviously, there are some highly skilled and well paying jobs, for which there is a shortage of qualified graduates, but the normal skills acquired in most degree courses are not exchangeable to them.


The PAC is of the view that recognition of prior learning as per the Skills Development Act is paramount in order to recognise skills in the education system. There should be a process of recognising skills acquired through on-the-job-training. By focusing education and training on skills that university courses can cultivate, we shape a system that is socially wasteful and dysfunctional.


We must remember that radical transformation or socialist education is the answer, and we cannot have that unless the land is returned to its rightful owners. [Interjections.] We believe that land is money and land is wealth. Up until such time as the land is returned to the indigenous people ... [Interjections.]


Be that as it may,hon Chair, we support the Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]







Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  9








Mr Y CASSIM: Hon Minister, before I begin, I thought I should inform you that whilst you’ve chosen specifically to greet only the Sasco president here today, he was on the radio the whole of last week publicly distancing himself and his organisation from you and the ANC, after Daso humiliated them at the University of Fort Hare. [Applause.]


Secondly, I find it quite worrying when you say that you will not be held to account by the official opposition, and only by parliamentary portfolio committee members, when one by one each of them has come to this podium and thanked you, whilst you are doing a bad job. I can’t understand it, but perhaps now it is clear why you have convinced yourself that you are doing a good job. I’m not going to do that, and you should listen very carefully.


Hon Chairperson, the Higher Education and Training Budget put before us does not represent progress. I cannot in good conscience support a budget, together with plans which are destined to fail the majority of our people, particularly the poor and vulnerable.


Succinctly put, the current crisis facing higher education in general, and students in particular, is symptomatic of the following: an ANC government that values patronage over progress and will never allocate sufficient budget; a Minister who embodies this patronage by appointing or protecting his cronies who run public entities and colleges as their own fiefdoms; and a department without the capacity or political will to ensure that even the current funds available are spent efficiently and that students are safe from exploitation.


Let me start with the NSFAS funding. The NSFAS increase from 2015-16 to 2017-18 is less than R1 billion, whilst the department subsidy allocation over the same period increases by only R700 million. This, while it is common knowledge that much less than half of the students who are financially needy can currently be assisted with this budget.


Just as worrying is the fact that the administrative capacity of this public entity will halve over the same period, while currently it cannot ensure that funds are disbursed properly.This mirrors the overall lack of capacity in the department to ensure even mediocre service delivery.


You, hon Minister, and your department have become a curse and disease to the students of this country. [Interjections.]


The cronies you have deployed to the Setas, for example, have by and large wasted billions of rands, running most of theseSetas as their own personal fiefdoms, with the cost to benefit oftheir core functions amounting to over R300 000 and R400 000 per student trained or assisted. And all the while you and your department have done nothing.


NSFAS money at universities and Tvet colleges is being diverted for the benefit of more of your cronies and their friends, and yet again, all the while you and your department are doing nothing.


This can be best illustrated through what is happening at the University of Fort Hare and Lovedale Tvet College in the Eastern Cape, which is symptomatic of what is happening at most institutions across the country.


At the University of Fort Hare the management has been allowed to divert NSFAS funds into its own coffers and into the coffers of private service providers, whilst exploiting its students. [Interjections.] This has been done through massive increases in tuition and residence fees.

I must add that in the residences our NSFAS students are being forced to stay in the most squalid of conditions. I invite you to come and see those conditions, instead of attending your Gucci Communist activities. [Interjections.]


Also, while students have not received a single meal allowance, we expect them to succeed in examinations that are starting at the end of this month.


Your department and the public entities should be investigating this, but one surely does not want to investigate one’s own cronies! I have written to you on this matter and you have not even cared enough about these students to respond to that.


At LovedaleTvetCollege the situation is even worse. NSFAS students have not received a single meal allowance – not just this year, but the entire last year. Those staying more than 10 km away do not receive a transport allowance, and many NSFAS beneficiaries were forced to pay an upfront registration fee at the beginning of this year.


Here again we have college principals running colleges as their own fiefdoms, wrongfully firing whistleblowers and wasting millions of rand on frivolous court cases.

Hon Minister, you are a respondent in these court cases, so you know about them. I have personally seen emails to your Director-General, Mr GwebsQonde, from whistleblowersfrom as far back as 2011, yet currently the status quo remains.


During last year’s budget debate, hon Minister, I challenged you to commit to seeing to it that no student would be prevented from furthering their education or skills training, both postgraduate and undergraduate, just because they could not afford to do so. Typically, you did not respond to this challenge. This past weekend the DA adopted this as a resolution at its congress.


It has become clear that the ANC and you will never implement fee-free higher education for poor qualifying matriculants, and the DA is the only party that presents a credible alternative on this issue. [Interjections.]


South Africans are becoming aware that the only way to achieve this is to do what the University of Fort Harestudents did, to vote out the ANC and to vote in the DA. Thank you. [Applause.]









Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  10













Mr C D KEKANA: Hon Chair, hon Ministers, all Cabinet Ministers present, Deputy Ministers, directors-general, Members of Parliament, and ladies and gentlemen, the debate is hot, and we are all enjoying it. I want to start with honGroenewald. [Interjections.]


Hon Groenewald is right when he says that the University of Cape Town is using language and the quota system to prevent or block other students like Afrikaner students from going there. It is right to point that out but, remember, a lot of indigenous students in this country have to go to any universities, whether they are English-speaking, or Afrikaans-speaking,or previously disadvantaged universities, and the medium of instruction there is English. It is English because ... [Interjections.] They have to learn in English because they are forced by circumstances to learn in English. You cannot be an engineer in Tshivenda, Sesotho or isiZulu. [Applause.] [Interjections.] If you must have more than ...


Dr P J GROENEWALD: AgbVoorsitter, ... [Hon Chairperson, ...]



The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Order! Hon Kekana, just hold on a second. Is that a point of order?


Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, is the hon member prepared to take a question from me? [Interjections.] It will be a simple question.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Order! Order, hon members!


Dr P J GROENEWALD: I can speak English. That is why I am asking in English, so that he can understand. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile):Order, honGroenewald. Let us attend to your question.


Mr C D KEKANA: No! No! No!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon Kekana, will you take a question?


Mr C D KEKANA: No! No!


Dr P J GROENEWALD: I accept that, Chairperson. He sounds like an imperialist Cecil John Rhodes.




The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you, honGroenewald. You can sit down. Continue, honKekana.


Mr C D KEKANA: Just to conclude the point I was making, I am saying that indigenous students in this country are forced to learn in English or Afrikaans at our universities, which is a very difficult thing for them. They have to because, ultimately, even if they were able to learn in their own languages, for as long as industry and the economy are run in English or Afrikaans, they are forced to learn in those languages.


So, first of all, the main transformation must be there in the economy. The German economy is in German, owned by Germans. [Interjections.] The French economy is owned by the French. The English economy is owned by the English. It is only in Africa where indigenous people do not own their own economies, and this has implications. [Applause.]This has implications for education, for all kinds of things.


The second point refers to the professor. I knew that when I said, “Professor,” the left would keep quiet! [Laughter.] The second point is in regard to the hon Prof Bozzoli. Hon Bozzoli said we do not measure up to international standards, and she referred to the United Kingdom. [Interjections.] No, the point is the following. How can you refer to the United Kingdom when it was part of denying blacks an education in this country? [Applause.] Up to today the English will boast to the Afrikaners and say: “We taught you apartheid during the days of segregation and the colour bar.” [Interjections.]


So, when they are responsible for the backwardness of education today, why must you compare us to them and expect us to match up with them in so short a time when they spent so many years suppressing us and denying us education? [Applause.] [Interjections.]


I want to congratulate our Ministeronce more. [Interjections.] You have drawn the marching lines and so many of us are marching with you. Only a few are dragging behind.


I just want to refer to the certificates. Although there are challenges with addressing the issue of the certificates, we really do want our students who qualify to get their certificates.


Some of the challenges are that papers were leaked or some students did not put their identification numbers on their exam papers. The main one isthe backlog. However, the backlog means ...


An HON MEMBER: Eight years!


Mr C D KEKANA: ... that the doors of learning are opening, and our communities are going in. They have education and learning.


There are so many certificates that must be issued that we need to beef up our system to issue the certificates. The human resource policy and the procurement policy are already out, so that the new state information technology can be put in so as to deal with the allocation of certificates. [Time expired.] Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]


Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, may I address you, please?




Mr M WATERS: Chair, I wonder if you can just make a ruling to inform our guests in the gallery not to participate in the debate. [Interjections.] Thank you.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you very much. Of course, it is correct to indicate that, as much as we are very happy for the guests to attend, they should not participate in the debate. We must appreciate that for almost the entire debate – we are now close to the end – they have behaved properly, and I think we must appreciate that.




















Wednesday, 13 May 2015                          Take:  11









The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson and hon members, allow me first of all as I close just to thank my special adviser, John Pampallis, who is going on retirement at the end of this month. We have been in the trenches with him in education for the past 24 years. John, thank you very much. May you have many grandchildren and enjoy them in your retirement.


Then, let me thank all those parties who actually support this Vote.


Firstly, I want to say this through you, Chairperson. Prof Bozzoli, you said Hitler is raising his ugly head, but you were at a congress that was resuscitating Hendrik Verwoerd, a man whose legacy we are still trying to deal with today. What happened? Your leaders were actually walking on eggs, trying to defend Allister Sparks, virtually insulting millions of black South Africans who actually suffered under Hendrik Verwoerd. [Applause.]


Secondly, I suppose in the DA there are two types of sociologists. There’s Prof Bozzoli and Dr Wilmot James. I disagree with Dr Wilmot James, but one thing I know is that he will never manufacture wrong figures. [Interjections.] The ratio of full-time equivalent students to instructional staff in South Africa is29,3 to 1. I don’t know where the figures that you are quoting actually come from. That is one point.


The next thing is basic. We have 26 universities in South Africa; we do not have 25 universities as you said.


Then, I find it very rich, coming from the DA, that they should lecture us about sending students overseas, when here in the Western Cape they are refusing to send poor students to study medicine in Cuba, and we have a shortage of doctors. [Interjections.] They also do not want to do that.


The other thing,on the Staffing South Africa's Universities Framework, is thatwe are starting with R274 million and 125 brand-new academics. That is as a start.


Hon Cassim, I must also say that, honestly, the DA will be judged for what it is. It is an insult to these senior executives of sectoreducation and training authorities, who actually have credible professional backgrounds ... [Interjections.]


Mr Y CASSIM: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): [Inaudible.]


Mr Y CASSIM: Thank you, Chairperson. Is the hon Minister willing and brave enough to take a question?


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon Minister?





The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): He is not prepared. Can you sit down?




The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Proceed,hon Minister.[Interjections.]


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Even if I had time, I would say no. It is really deeply offensive. Most of these Seta executives are people with professional integrity. I found many of them there. For you to actually call them “cronies” – shame to the DA! [Interjections.] Is it because most of them are black South Africans that they actually deserve to be called that? It is really very shameful. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Order! Order, hon members!


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I also want to say to hon Groenewald ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon Minister, just a second. Hon members you have debated. You have made points. Now is the time for the Minister to respond. [Interjections.] Order! Can we give the Minister time to respond to the debate? You may proceed, Minister. [Interjections.]


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair and hon members, I want to say this to honGroenewald. I want to repeat that I have nothing against the Afrikaans language, but we are not going to defend the Afrikaans language in a laager. Afrikaans has got to learn to live with other languages, ... [Interjections.]... and be able to be strengthened in that way. We don’t want to go back to who is responsible for some of the negative attitudes toward Afrikaans.


In 1976 you were forcing us, the majority of the people in this country, to learn in Afrikaans. [Interjections.] I can tell you that changed the attitude of many black South Africans in the rest of the country towards Afrikaans, not because ... [Interjections.] We in the ANC are trying to resuscitate and clean up the image of Afrikaans today.


What we are not going to have is this. We are not going to have universities that use language to exclude. You will always use the University of Cape Town. I hold no brief for UCT, but tell me the number of students who have gone to UCT to seek to be taught in Afrikaans. What did UCT say? Therefore, you are just saying this, not because there is anything in it, but because you are just trying to make a rather cheap political point. I’m sorry to say that.


I want to say to Cope that we are shifting enrolment patterns. The technical vocational education and training students are almost equal to university students now. Not so long ago we were almost 1:3 university students to Tvet students.


Also, don’t analyse the Setas through anecdotes. Point out the weaknesses of the Setas, but also point out the strengths and some of the achievements of some of these Setas on many fronts when it comes to work placement, internships, learnerships and other activities. But the problem ... [Interjections.] Well, what do you expect from an organisation that is an anecdote itself! [Laughter.] It can only be anecdotal in its own analysis. That is what I’m actually challenging you on.


Hon Mbinda from the PAC, I’m glad that you are supporting our Budget Vote. We have reopened the Tsolo Agricultural College, by the way, as we are actually reopening a whole range of other colleges that we have.


I want to say to hon members, especially those who come from the ANC, that we have raised a number of points that we are actually going to be taking up, working together.


Hon Mpontshane, I really do take your points, and I do appreciate that the IFP is actually supporting us.


I want to end by challenging the EFF. [Interjections.]




Ngicela ukuthi umholi we-EFF asinikeze ubufakazi bokuthi uyafunda ngempela yini eNyuvesi noma qha. [Uhleko.]


Ms D CARTER: Chairperson.


Ms H O MAXON: Order, Chair.


Ms D CARTER: Chairperson.


Ms H O MAXON: Point of order.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Order! Order![Interjections.] Order,hon members. [Interjections.] Order, hon members. Is that a point of order?


Ms H O MAXON: The point of order is that the Minister can’t just stand at the podium and say those things. [Interjections.] No, he is the Minister. Under his leadership he is supposed to have all the records, unless it’s a fake Minister of the Communist Party.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you very much. [Interjections.] Can you sit down? That is not a point of order. Continue, Minister.

Ms D CARTER: Chairperson.


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: As a Minister I don’t just go around looking for student’s records. I am challenging the EFF to produce evidence. It’s a question that I’m asking. I’m not saying that he is not. He appeared on television one day as if he was writing an exam.


Mr K Z MORAPELA: On a point of order.


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Let him provide proof if that ... [Interjections.]


Mr K Z MORAPELA: On a point of order, Chair.


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: ... is indeed the case. [Interjections.]


Mr K Z MORAPELA: On a point of order.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Just a second. Yes?


Mr K Z MORAPELA: It is quite amazing that the Minister ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Is that a point of order?


Mr K Z MORAPELA: Yes, it is a point of order.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Continue.


Mr K Z MORAPELA: I think it is not right for the Minister to say that he can’t go around looking for students who are in universities. [Interjections.] Yes. The reports of the universities are very clear that the President of the EFF, the Commander-in-Chief, ... [Interjections.] ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon member! Hon member!


Mr K Z MORAPELA: ... is finishing his political science degree with the University of South Africa. [Interjections.] The Minister must just try to get his facts correct.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you. That is not a point of order. Proceed, Minister. [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: Chair! Chair!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon Minister, proceed and conclude the debate.


Ms H O MAXON: Chair, I’m rising ...


The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: If, Chairperson, ... [Interjections.] ...


Ms H O MAXON: Chairperson, I’m calling for a point of order here.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Just hold on, hon Minister. Just hold on,hon Minister. You have eight minutes to respond. Continue,hon member.


Ms H O MAXON: Sit down, Minister! I’m talking. [Interjections.]




Ms H O MAXON: Sit down! I’m at the podium here.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon member! Hon member!







Nksz H O MAXON: Siyacela bo! Ngaxoshwa ubani?



Please! Fake Minister, sit down!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon member, please!


Ms H O MAXON: Sit down!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Please don’t behave like that! [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: Thank you. Chair, ...




Ms H O MAXON: Chair, we know very well that this Minister is very, very, very, very ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile) That is not a point of order. [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: ... very sceptical of the EFF and their leadership. They are very, very educated.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Hon Maxon!


Ms H O MAXON: We know that the Minister is afraid of the fact that the EFF leadership in this House is very educated. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you very much. Can you sit down?


Ms H O MAXON: So he must stop being so low ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Sit down,hon member. [Interjections.]


Ms H O MAXON: ... and he must address the issues that the nation is waiting to hear.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): It is not a point of order. Hon Minister, complete the debate. [Interjections.]



UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Uma efunda siyokwamukela lokho. Kuphela nje into ebengiyisho ukuthi ingabe kunjalo na? Umbuzo nje engizibuzela wona. Siyabonga kakhulu; siyaqhuba, sihlalo.



Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Ms D CARTER: Chair.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you very much. Hon Carter?


Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): The speaker has already left the podium. What are you rising on?


Ms D CARTER: I do know that the speaker is no longer at the podium. However, I have been standing, yet you have not recognised me. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B L Mashile): Order, hon members.

Ms D CARTER: Hon Chairperson, I actually just wanted to see, on a question of privilege, whether the Minister was also going to include the cheap honorary doctorates in his investigation. [Interjections.]


Debate concluded.


The Committee rose at 17:08.




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