Hansard: EPC: Debate on Vote No 39 - Rural Development and Land Reform

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 08 May 2015


No summary available.




FRIDAY, 8 MAY 2015




FRIDAY, 8 MAY 2015






Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the National Assembly Chamber at 10:01.


House Chairperson Ms A T Didiza, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.













The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, we would like to acknowledge the presence of our guests in the gallery. Amongst them we have the guests of the Minister, the delegation from the Kenyan Parliament’s Standing Committee on Land and Natural Resources. [Applause.] We also have a delegation from the Regional Representative Council of the Republic of Indonesia. [Applause.]


We also have the constituency of the Minister from the Republic of South Africa. They are the farmers, land beneficiaries, experts, and officials from the different parastatals to do with land, as well as agriculture. I have also seen some students who, I am sure, are the future agricultural researchers, scientists and maybe land surveyors, and who are also in the gallery. [Applause.]


You are all welcome, but I am sure that without the Members of Parliament who will participate in the debate it wouldn’t be exciting. So, the presence of members here is also acknowledged. [Interjections.] [Applause.]











Debate on Vote No 39 - Rural Development and Land Reform:


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chairperson, thank you very much for welcoming all of our guests. I won’t do the same; I think it would be pedantic if I did so. However, I do thank the hon members of the House for attending this sitting.


Hon members, colleagues, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers here today, esteemed traditional leaders, honoured guests, and ladies and gentlemen, on this date in 1996 the Constitution of the Republic was adopted by this august House. We are honoured and privileged to present our budget policy speech on this date in the evolution of our country’s democracy.


It is now common cause that when he presented the Constitution to this House and the country, the then Deputy President of the Republic, His Excellency Thabo Mbeki, made his seminal “I am an African” speech. I quote briefly from how he introduced his address:


On an occasion such as this, we should, perhaps, start from the beginning.


So, let me begin.


I am an African.


[Applause.] That was His Excellency Thabo Mbeki speaking.


During his state of the nation address on 12 February 2015 the President of the Republic, His Excellency Jacob Zuma, had the following to say in opening his address:


The year 2015 marks 60 years of a historic moment in our (country), when South Africans from all walks of life adopted the Freedom Charter in 1955, in Kliptown, Soweto.


They declared amongst other things, that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people.


That was a powerful, visionary and reconciliatory statement which set the tone for the non-racial democracy we have established.


In its Preamble the Freedom Charter states:


... South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, ...


Clause 4 of the charter states the following:


The Land shall be Shared among those who Work it!

Restriction of land ownership on a racial basis shall be ended, and all the land redivided amongst those who work it, to banish famine and land hunger;

The state shall help the peasants with implements, seed, tractors and dams to save the soil and assist the tillers;

Freedom of movement shall be guaranteed to all who work on the land;

All shall have the right to occupy land wherever they choose;

People shall not be robbed of their cattle, and forced labour and farm prisons shall be abolished.


It is the responsibility of the democratic, developmental state to translate this dictum into a socioeconomic reality.


As part of its work towards the installation of our democratic dispensation, the ANC developed the document, Ready to Govern: ANC policy guidelines for a democratic South Africa, which has four pillars. These are:


To strive for the achievement of the right of all South Africans, as a whole, to political and economic self-determination in a united South Africa;

To overcome the legacy of inequality and injustice created by colonialism and apartheid, in a swift, progressive and principled way;

To develop a sustainable economy and state infrastructure that will progressively improve the quality of life of all South Africans; and,

To encourage the flourishing of the feeling that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, to promote common loyalty to and pride in the country and to create a universal sense of freedom and security within its borders.


The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa gives concrete expression to the Freedom Charter and the Ready to Govern document when it states in its Preamble:


We, the people of South Africa,


Recognise the injustices of our past;


Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land;


Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and


Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.


We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the (land) so as to–


Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights;


Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law;


Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person; and


Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations.


Section 25(5) of the Constitution enjoins the state to:


... take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to foster conditions which enable citizens to gain access to land on an equitable basis.


These constitutional imperatives are at the core of the mandate of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. The litmus test for all policies, therefore, is whether or not they are redistributive in character.


Consultations with organised agriculture, farm workers’ unions, civil society organisations with an interest in land, and academics have taken place. We are now consolidating the input made by these partners.


During his state of the nation address the President announced that the government would conduct 50 pilot projects, known as the 50/50 Policy Framework, by 2019; and that the Regulation of Landholdings Bill would be introduced in the House. That Bill deals with land ceilings and the prohibition of land ownership by foreign nationals.


We have seen tremendous activity and interest from the sector, the use of the annual rate of turnover to determine the nature and extent of redistribution and equity, an ideas bank, and so on. These are all inputs which have come in. Members have the policy speech in that regard, so I’m not going to read all of them.


I might just say that the interest shown has been varied, but the common thread that runs through all of it is that there is general acceptance of the framework. The framework seeks to strengthen the relative rights of people who work the land. So there is general acceptance, although there are various permutations in regard to the policy proposal that has been presented to South Africans.


There is an interesting proposal, an interesting one by a community group. It says that we should establish farm workers’ trusts and farm villages, but without separate titles. This is an interesting one, because the general trend out there is that everybody must have title to their land. These are people who are thinking about co-operatives, etc, and turning co-operatives into a business ownership form of development. These are community groups that speak for people out there who don’t have land, but seek to have it, and therefore produce and make a livelihood that is dependent on their own productive capacity. There are several such proposals that one may read in the speech, set out in terms of who says what.


With regard to land ceilings, which I think is a very important point here, and the prohibition of land ownership by foreign nationals, there has been outright rejection from the greater part of the sector. This matter has divided the sector across racial and class lines. The prohibition of land ownership by foreign nationals has drawn a sharp response from, particularly, the Banking Association of South Africa, the Agricultural Business Chamber and AgriSA.


The basis of their rejection is that it will drive away foreign investment in the economy as a whole. We certainly do not agree with this view. Our conviction is that any investor, whether foreign or national, wants policy certainty. Once they understand what the policy is, they adapt accordingly.


We have looked at South Africa’s history of land ownership patterns since the advent of the 1913 Natives Land Act, as well as experience elsewhere in the world, particularly Europe and a few countries in Latin America. Both scenarios are instructive.


The South African experience shows that the aggregate farmland over this period has generally remained stable, being disturbed by fluctuations in the number of people entering or leaving farming. This, in turn, has influenced the fall of the average farm size from 950 ha to 750 ha between 1918 and 1950, and the change from 750 ha to over 2 000 ha currently. In Europe the general average farm size is 14 ha, while in Latin America it ranges between approximately 72 ha and 84 ha in Brazil and Chile respectively.


Taking into account these scenarios, the general views shared at our recent National Land Tenure Summit, the pronouncements by President Zuma during his state of the nation address, and the historical need to address the brutal legacy of colonialism and grand apartheid, we have come up with the following policy proposals on the ceilings, for both natural and juristic persons. The ceiling for a small-scale, viable, commercial farm should be 1 000 ha; the ceiling for a medium-scale, viable, commercial farm should be 2 500 ha; and the ceiling for a large-scale, viable, commercial farm should be 5 000 ha.


Any excess land portions between each of these categories and above the 12 000 ha maximum shall be expropriated and redistributed. Compensation will be on the basis of the “just and equitable” principle enshrined in section 25(3) of our Constitution. [Applause.]


We have come up with a special category to address the 12 000 ha maximum announced by the President during his state of the nation address. This will be applicable to three categories of land use: forestry, game farms and renewable energy farms, particularly wind farms.


In addition, we think there is merit in the proposal by the African Farmers Association of South Africa, Afasa, on the use of the rate of turnover. We have come to the conclusion that this option would fit well in circumstances where sugar, grapes, vegetables, fruit and horticulture are concerned. In such cases, however, off-farm equity holdings would be more appropriate, and we have set the rate of turnover at R5 million per annum, provided that the share equity for workers is not less than 25%. Refer to the AgriBEE Codes of Good Practice.


We are of the strong view that these policy proposals would go a long way toward addressing the strategic thrust of land reform, namely, rekindling the class of black commercial farmers which was destroyed by the 1913 Natives Land Act; that all land reform farms, including communal land, are 100% productive; and achieving the objectives of the National Development Plan as rapidly as possible.


Apart from redistributing land to deracialise ownership, we have to align land relations in communal areas controlled by traditional institutions with the Constitution of the Republic. In this regard, a Bill will be submitted to this House as soon as consultations with all interested parties have been completed, and a policy finalised.


Similarly, a policy is being developed to give full title to households which have been given land under collectives, such as trusts and communal property associations, CPAs. This move has necessitated an amendment to the Communal Property Associations Act. The relevant Bill will be submitted to the House this year as well.


Here, firstly, the will of the people must be tested as to which institution should govern their land on their behalf; secondly, the litmus test is the socioeconomic impact of the institution so selected on the lives of the people and their communities. With respect to land controlled by CPAs and trusts, a full title deed will be transferred to households. In the case of communal areas, institutionalised use rights will be registered. Both instances speak to the one household, one hectare regime, which seeks to address subsistence livelihoods at the household level.


The National Development Plan introduces its overview with the following quotation from the Reconstruction and Development Programme:


No political democracy can survive and flourish if the mass of our people remain in poverty, without land, without tangible prospects for a better life. Attacking poverty and deprivation must therefore be the first priority of a democratic government.


In pursuit of the targets and actions of the NDP, the department developed the Rural Economic Transformation Model. During the state of the nation address the President announced that government had set aside R2 billion this financial year for the implementation of agri-parks in all 44 district municipalities, with priority given to the 27 poorest ones. Of this amount, 1%, or R20 million, will be allocated to institutional and capacity development, and/or skills acquisition, with priority given to the 27 poorest districts. This is to address the question of equity.


These agri-parks are an integral part, and driver, of the Rural Economic Transformation Model, whose focus is the generation and stimulation of both subsistence and commercial enterprises. Producers will own 70% equity in the agri-parks, with the state and other commercial interests anchoring the other 30%. The state’s strategic support will diminish over a period of 10 years, with producers taking full control. Two districts are already ready to start next week, namely Ngaka Modiri Molema in the North West and Chris Hani in the Eastern Cape.


Section 25 of the Constitution, true to the letter and spirit of the Freedom Charter, empowers the state to intervene directly, where it deems it necessary. In this regard, the President has recently assented to the following laws: the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act; the Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Act; the Property Valuation Act; and the Geomatics Profession Act. These are transformative laws.


We must, however, mention that there is a case before the Constitutional Court brought by the Land Access Movement of South Africa, challenging the validity of the process which culminated in the passing of the amendment to the Restitution of Land Rights Act, 1994. This is a matter that we, as both Houses of Parliament, are faced with.


The Property Valuation Act, which establishes the Office of the Valuer-General, was assented to by the President in June 2014. It is intended that the office will be fully operational, with the Valuer-General in office, by 1 July.


We are institutionalising transformation. We are moving South Africa forward. Siyaqhuba! [We are moving forward.] [Applause.]


Let me to conclude by referring to the Ready to Govern document again. It is very important, because some of the hon members in this House really do not know this document. [Interjections.] They do not know that we are actually implementing policies of the ANC. Some of them were part of the ANC but they have just forgotten it, and it’s taken them a very, very short time to forget. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It says this:


Legislation on economic matters shall be guided by the principle of encouraging collaboration between the public, private, co-operative, communal and small-scale family sectors with a view to reducing inequality, promoting growth and providing goods and services for the whole population.


The Bill of Rights shall establish the principles and procedures whereby land rights will be restored to those deprived of them by apartheid statutes. A land claims tribunal, functioning in an equitable manner according to principles of justice laid out in legislation, will, wherever it is feasible to do so, restore such rights. In doing so, it will take into account the role of compensation to be paid by the state to those whose existing titles are affected. Provisions relating to property rights and compensation will have to be applied in such a way that they are not manipulated so as to frustrate a national land reform programme.


We present to the House this budget policy speech. Thank you very much.









Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon Chair, hon Minister and other hon Ministers who are here, hon Deputy Ministers of Rural Development and Land Reform and other hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, and our guests in the gallery, it is true that, and I quote:


No political democracy can survive and flourish if the masses of our people remain in poverty, without land, without tangible prospects for a better life.


The Commission on Restitution of Land Rights has made progress in finalising claims that were lodged before 31 December 1998 by spending more than R18 billion to restore nearly 3,2 million ha of land to the rightful owners up to November 2014. More than 1,8 million claimants benefited from restitution. In total, more than 98% of the land claims have been finalised. That is progress.


Over the years there were challenges that led to the slow pace of restitution, such as the exorbitant price of land acquisition, lack of adequate research capacity, conflict among claimants, land claim cases that took long to be resolved by the Land Claims Court, and lack of funding to finalise the settled claims.


Research is one of the vitally important phases of the restitution process. It provides evidence upon which a land claim will be accepted as valid or invalid. As mentioned above, inadequate capacity for research is one of the challenges facing restitution. The plan of the commission to partner with universities and the Human Sciences Research Council to enhance the research capacity will increase to 2 660 the number of claims that will be researched in this financial year, which is an increase of 1 215 compared to the 2014-15 financial year, when 1 445 claims were researched.


By addressing the research capacity the commission will increase the number of claims settled and finalised, it will accelerate the finalisation of the outstanding claims submitted before the cut-off date of 31 December 1998, and this will mean that there will be a need for additional funding at the right time to fast-track the restitution process.


The Expropriation Bill has been tabled for consideration by the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, which will also assist in fast-tracking the land reform programme. While we acknowledge that land redistribution is too slow, we totally condemn land grabbing, as it is against the Constitution and other land reform policies. [Applause.]


In 2012 the ANC’s 53rd conference in Mangaung took a resolution that there was a need to reopen the lodging of claims. The 2014 ANC manifesto, read in line with the 2014 state of the nation address and the Minister’s Budget Vote, confirms that there is a need to reopen the lodging of claims for the restitution of land for a period of five years. This resolution led to the restitution of the Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Act, which was signed into law on 30 June 2014, for the reopening of the restitution process for a period of five years, until 30 June 2019.


Lessons were learnt during the first phase of the restitution programme. There was an improvement, as applications were previously captured manually, but currently applications are captured electronically in order to eradicate the loss of files, which was a concern raised by the public. This is an indication that the ANC government listens to the people and addresses their needs.


We appreciate the fact that the commission has acknowledged that there was lack of communication between the commission and the claimants. An improvement has been made by the commission. Immediately after the claimant application has been captured, the claimant receives an acknowledgement letter and an SMS which confirms that the application has been captured.


Furthermore, to improve communication, manuals were developed in all languages on how to lodge a claim. The commission has procured sprinters which will be used to communicate with and educate the public about the lodgement process and the programme of the mobile lodgement office. But more still needs to be done to continuously inform the claimants about the progress of their claims until the final stage.


We also request members to assist in preaching the gospel of the relodgement of claims in their constituencies, and with the programme of the mobile being distributed to constituencies and municipalities.


One of the reasons that made some people miss the deadline for lodgement before 31 December 1998 was that offices were too far for some rural people who were unemployed to reach them.


To deal with this challenge, the department has procured four mobile lodgement buses, which are called gemsboks, and two 4x4s that will go into deep rural areas to service the people. The ANC government will be bringing services nearer to the people. Let the people use the opportunity and make their applications on time and not wait to apply on the last day. [Applause.]


We also request that the officials who will be manning the mobile programme serve the rural people with humility and dignity. We expect the same from the communities. Kuzoshunqa uthuli ezilalini. [There is going to be hard work in the rural areas.]


Ms E N LOUW: I have a point of order, Chairperson.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you take your seat? Hon member, what is your point order?


Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, there has been a ruling in this House that members that are in the gallery cannot participate in what is happening here. I know some of them are very miserable being here because they can ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member, I have noted your point. Hon member, can you please proceed?


Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson. Chairperson, I want you to make a ruling on it because it is a Rule ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I have noted your point. I will make a ruling. Hon member, can you please continue?


Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Thank you, hon Chair. Kuzoshunqa uthuli ezilalini. [We are going to accelerate our work rate in the rural areas.] The commission is coming. The ANC government is delivering. It is the only government that can deliver services to the needy people. This budget will ensure that the mobile lodgement officers will reach each and every corner of South Africa for the affected individuals to lodge their claims. In reversing the legacy of the 1913 Natives Land Act, we congratulate and applaud the department and the commission for the progress made.


The National Development Plan outlines key proposals for tackling problems of poverty, inequality and unemployment. It states that by 2030 rural communities should have greater opportunities to participate fully in the economic, social and political life of the country. The successful land reform, job creation and increasing agricultural production will contribute to the development of an inclusive rural economy. It thus proposes a multipronged strategy for job creation in agriculture, provision of basic services and the development of agro-processing.


The Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, as resolved on by the 52nd conference of the ANC held in Polokwane, has been implemented since 2009. Furthermore the 53rd conference of the ANC held in Mangaung was also consistent in reaffirming the need for radical agrarian transformation.


The Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform proposed the agrarian transformation system as a strategy for the transformation of the rural economy. This strategy involves the following development measurables: meeting basic human needs, rural enterprise development, agrovillage industries sustained by credit facilities and value chain markets, and improved land tenure.


The increase in the budget for rural infrastructure will make a difference in improving the standard of living of rural people, through the upgrading of roads, and the provision of water and other basic services. It contributes significantly to narrowing the development gap between rural and urban centres. This will contribute significantly to reversing the spatial legacy of apartheid, which has resulted in outward migration to the cities or urban centres, limit the inequalities between rural and urban development and, furthermore, create jobs and provide skills to rural people.


Chair, where the CRDP has passed through, you will notice drastic progress in the provision of services. Rural areas will not be the same again. The ANC isuse [moved] the rural areas from 0 to 50 and from 50 to 100. [Applause.] The ANC is the only organisation that can care for the South African people.


One of the strategic objectives of the department is to facilitate the development of rural enterprise ...


Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chairperson.


Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: ... and industry in rural areas.


Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chairperson.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat? Hon member, if you are rising again on the point of ... [Interjections.]


Ms E N LOUW: Yes, I am rising on that.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Exactly?


Ms E N LOUW: Please make a ruling, because I can also bus people in ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, ...


Ms E N LOUW: ... and let them come and sit here and clap hands for me while I am talking. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat? [Interjections.]


Ms E N LOUW: No, I want you to make a ruling. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you take your seat? Hon member on the podium, can you please continue?


Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: One of the strategic objectives of the department is to facilitate the development of rural enterprise and industries in rural areas with economic development potential and opportunities by 2020. More still needs to be done on enterprise development and agribusiness. The plan of the department to establish 27 agri-parks in the 27 poorest districts is most welcome, as this will benefit mostly smallholder and commercial farmers.


Hon Chair, priority number one of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework emphasises the improvement of land administration and spatial planning for integrated development in rural areas. The department is still lacking in the implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, Spluma, especially at provincial and local level, to be in line with the National Development Plan. Spluma will guide use, planning and development in order to address inequalities and facilitate integrated planning and land use management by 2020.


Recapitalisation was initiated in 2009 and its first implementation started in 2010. His Excellency the President in the 2014 state of the nation address also emphasised that comprehensive support must be given to smallholder farmers and land reform beneficiaries in the form of technical skills, infrastructural development and financial support.


The Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform conducted its own evaluation of the recapitalisation. As part of the evaluation the committee conducted public hearings, which were held on 4 and 5 February 2015. It received submissions from research organisations, academics, stakeholders, strategic partners and mentors and, most importantly, the beneficiaries of the recapitalisation.


Stakeholders and beneficiaries demonstrated evidence of the success of the recapitalisation programme. Testimonies from farmers supporting the recapitalisation included the following. Some farmers reported that the programme has upgraded production from emerging to full commercial farming, for instance the Marinda farm in the Northern Cape. The portfolio committee visited this farm and saw the success of this woman who is a livestock farmer.


Beneficiaries of the programme also appreciated the technical skills provided through the recapitalisation. Most importantly, government investment in infrastructure development was most evident across the farms as one of the contributing factors to the success of this programme.


We drew important lessons from our engagement with members of the public. Some of the lessons relate to the challenges confronting the recapitalisation and how government should address those challenges. Those challenges are follows: late payment of recapitalisation funds to the beneficiaries, imposition of strategic partners, a reporting system which is not functional, business plans which change now and then, and a lack of consultation and communication.


But the department is in the process of reviewing the recapitalisation policy, which we hope will address some of the challenges mentioned in the public hearings for the effective implementation of the programme. We will continue to conduct oversight over the recapitalisation project, as well as monitor the policy review processes.


The farms that will be assisted through recapitalisation in this financial year will never be the same again.


The integrated approach by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform will strengthen and sustain this programme.


The department has entities that are accountable to it. It is the responsibility of the department to transfer financial resources to those entities and let the transfers be done on time in order for the entities to be able to execute their mandates and avoid fiscal dumping due late transfer.


The department has to continuously assist and monitor the Ingonyama Trust Board, ITB, to ensure compliance with the Ingonyama Trust Act, the prescripts of the Public Finance Management Act, Treasury regulations, and other related legislation. The ITB must ensure that the post of the chief financial officer is filled within three months, as it has been vacant for some time, in order for the CFO to be able to focus on his responsibility.


The department has acquired farms through the farm Proactive Land Acquisition Strategy, PLAS. Some of the farms have farmers who have leased their farms, as they are state farms, but some of the farms are unoccupied. Let all the unoccupied farms be occupied, as people need the land to work. Therefore, let the land be occupied.


One of the pillars of the NDP is to mobilise South Africans to ensure that they are actively involved in their own development. The department needs to be congratulated for the following initiatives: the establishment of the national reference groups to debate policy initiatives; the establishment of the councils of stakeholders at the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme sites; the plan of the department to establish 27 district land committees to drive development and promote equitable land redistribution; communal land boards that will be established after the Communal Land Rights Bill has been passed; and the establishment of the land rights management committees. These are the strategies for involving the citizens in driving their own development.


The department as a facilitator, initiator and catalyst for development must ensure that all these structures are functional. This is an indication that people are governing under the ANC government by having a say about their destiny. Amandla asebantwini. [Power is with the people.] [Applause.] South Africa is a much better place today than it was before. [Interjections.]


Unemployment is one of the major challenges facing South Africa. Therefore the department has planned to create job opportunities for the unemployed, and promote skills through the National Rural Youth Service Corps programme. Chair, 2 500 youth will be recruited and skilled, although the Narysec intake has decreased. Also, 200 graduates will be trained and deployed in rural agricultural projects. Then, 8 000 jobs will be created through rural development initiatives. Furthermore, 4 500 jobs will be created through the CRDP, and 994 jobs will be created through other land reform programmes. [Interjections.]


The job opportunities that will be created will change the lives of the beneficiaries. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Your time is up.


Ms P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon Chair, we support the Budget Vote of the department. Thank you. [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. Firstly, I would like to advise hon members that while we note that the land debate is usually emotive, we must also be able to give one another a hearing and not debate across the Chamber, because our speakers have a platform to debate.


Secondly, I know that throughout the sitting some of us may want to inform our constituencies through Twitter, Instagram, or whatever chat mechanisms there are. Can we please make sure that our phones are on silent mode? I have heard a couple of phones making a noise while the sitting has been on.


I also want to advise our guests who are in the gallery that as guests you are not allowed to participate in the debate, no matter how exciting or irritating the points may be. You just have to be calm and observe the proceedings. I hope we will be able to proceed with the debate. Robust? Yes, but respect one another. Hon Ngwenya-Mabila? My apologies, hon T W Mhlongo.









Mr T W MHLONGO: Chairperson, ...



... bese ngizibuza ukuthi ngizoshada futhi yini? [Uhleko.]

Sihlalo, ngingowakwaMhlongo.


USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks A T Didiza): Yebo Njomane!



Mr T W MHLONGO: Thank you.



Sanibonani malungu ahloniphekile, sibingelele bonke oNgqongqoshe abakhona kanye naboSekela Ngqongqoshe abakhona, yebo, umhlaba wethu kumele ubuye kodwa kuyabonakala ukuthi izindlela zokusebenza ziyashintsha; kushintsha imiThetho yokuChibiyela, eminye eminingi iseza.


Ngqongqoshe ngikuzwile namhlanje futhi ngithanda ukukuhalalisela ngoba ukhulume ngokuningi enkulumweni yakho kodwa-ke sizohlola ukuthi konke lokhu kuyenziwa na njengoba sizokwenza umsebenzi wokuhlola njengekomidi.



Land reform must be used as an opportunity to achieve a fair and equitable society for all, not just for some. Redress must be achieved to give our people an opportunity to participate in a meaningful way in the economy.



Sihlalo, ngizokhuluma ngama-CPA, phecelezi okubizwa ngokuthi ngama-communal property association.



The most expensive local land redistribution deal is the MalaMala Game Reserve in Mpumalanga. [Interjections.] What happened there? They used R1 billion.


We have noted that this project has different phases, but that is not an excuse – we ultimately need to initiate the goals we want with this project. We note that there are different phases, but I would like to call on the Minister to note that I have received a letter from Mr Nkosi from Mpumalanga.



Ngqongqoshe, ubab’uNkosi ungithumele incwadi ngomhlaka 20 kuMbasa 2015. Ngizoyifunda le ncwadi yize noma beyinezinkinga eziningi. Izinkinga zakhona zitshengisa ... [Ubuwelewele.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, can we please allow the speaker on the podium to be heard? Hon member, proceed.



Mnu T W MHLONGO: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Le ncwadi lena ikhuluma ngemininingwane eminingi yama-CPA ikakhulukazi eMalaMala eMpumalanga. Ubab’uNkosi uthi ungomunye wabahlomuli, ubab’uNkosi ubuza umbuzo. Ngqongqoshe, ngizobuza le mibuzo kuwe ukuze uphendule ngoba ubab’uNkosi ubukele. Ubuza ukuthi ...



... will dignity be restored, since it is as if his dignity is not being restored? He is asking if he will benefit, because plus-minus R8 million has been collected so far, and why are they not benefiting, because there is money?



Ufuna ukwazi ukuthi isikhwama sinamalini kuze kube namhlanje? Ngiyathemba ukuthi uNgqongqoshe uzophendula ngoba ngiyambona uNgqongqoshe ophendulayo.



I call upon the Minister to make the necessary intervention in this project and other CPA projects, like iGrama. Minister, it is clear that the CPA models are not working and that is why there are changes now and then.


There are a lack of human capital, lack of oversight by officials, lack of monitoring and evaluation, and poor implementation of the Act, although you have said that it will be amended. They do not even participate so that the schedule in the Act is adhered to. There is no co-operative governance in its implementation, corruption is rife within CPAs ...



... kubonakala sengathi imiphakathi iyalibamba impela iqhaza, kodwa sengathi kanjalo nenkohlakalo yingakho-ke sekuyinto okumele kukhulunywe ngokuthi iqedwa kanjani.



Some chairpersons who are elected as board members, according to Mr Nkosi, are benefiting whilst he is not. [Interjections.]


We want to note that CPAs will work if our people benefit, for example, with job opportunities, community development, training programmes and skills programmes. For example, in MalaMala ...



... lapho ubab’uNkosi akhuluma khona kule ncwadi ... [Ubuwelewele.]




Mnu T W MHLONGO: Khona lokho, yi-MalaMala. NginguMzulu phela mina. Sihlalo, kunabantu abanezindlebe kodwa abezwa.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, please do not distract the speaker. He may not be able to speak the language appropriately, but I am sure that the Minister does know the project he is referring to. Proceed, hon member.



Mnu T W MHLONGO: Ngiyabonga, mama. Imigwaqo ayilunganga khona kule phrojekthi abantu bethu behlala khona; besicela Ngqongqoshe ukubheke lokho. Uhlelo lwama-CPA alusebenzi. Sengiyaphuma kule ncwadi; ngizokunikeza yona le ncwadi, Ngqongqoshe.


Ithi ngikhulume ngoba awuyithintanga indaba ye-ITB, phecelezi Ingonyama Trust Board ...



... and which is a public entity. The ITB is not adhering to its mandate and has failed dismally with regard to its mission and core vision. The livelihoods of our people have not improved to date. Fairness as a principle must be adhered to, especially in the ITB, in order for us to make sure that the concept of land redistribution is being fulfilled. As you have said, the trust land belongs to the community and not to the board.


Minister, I see that there seems to be a perception that you like to speak of, that the ANC will rule until Jesus comes back.



Nebhodi lisenjalo nanamhlanje, okusho ukuthi impela bayohlala kuze kubuye uJesu.





Mr T W MHLONGO: We are saying that it is uncalled for that board members ...



... ahlale ...



... until Jesus comes back. There must be a change so that we see improvement for our people. [Interjections.]


We question the value for money. We have doubts about the financial expenditure of the ITB. We have doubts. They buy carpets worth millions. I mean red carpets, Minister. [Interjections.] This shows that there are problems with their expenditure. The Auditor-General has raised ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]










Mong N S MATIASE: Modula setulo, ekare ho tletse masawana mona. Ha re a tlela papadi mona. Re tletse ho tla sebetsa.



For the past 21 years this department has been limping from one excuse to the other, trying to explain the failure ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, can we please allow the speaker on the podium to ... [Inaudible.].


Mr N S MATIASE: ... to redistribute land in a meaningful manner to black people who were dispossessed of the land. Albert Einstein says that when you repeat the same thing over and over again, hon Minister, that is insanity.



Ke masawana ntho eo re e tletseng mona.



There are the people of Dwesa and Cwebe in the Eastern Cape, who are still impoverished today, 10 years after the settlement of that claim. Then there are the people of Makuleke in Limpopo, who have been made servants of the Kruger National Park, even after the settlement of their claim; the people of Gwatyu at Queenstown in the Eastern Cape, whose land tenure is insecure and who have failed to get any support from your grand government programmes, due to the fact that nepotism and favouritism are deeply imbedded there, in the corruption in that specific province. These all bear testimony to the fact that the ANC has neglected the rural masses.


The Khoi and the San people have been illegitimised by your own government. Evidence of this is the manner in which your government is handling the Khomani San land claim in the Northern Cape and anywhere else in the country. [Applause.]


The path chosen by the ANC government since 1994 for the resolution of the land question has now been accepted by many to have failed spectacularly. Only 8% of the land has been returned to the black people, 90% of which is considered to be failed projects. The MalaMala R1 billion land deal remains a scandal to this very day.


Use your state power to transform land. The EFF is offering you advice. Our solution to the land question is simple: Expropriate land without compensation for equal redistribution; subdivide large farms and unproductive farms into small, manageable farms; ban all forms of farm evictions; and use your political and state power to transform.


Who are you loyal to? [Interjections.] Are you loyal to foreign investors, or are you loyal to the people who voted for you? Shame on you! [Interjections.]


We want to remind you, as we always do, that we in the EFF will continue to offer our 6% in this Parliament to change the dreaded section of the Constitution which protects private property, from which you and some of your members of the ANC continue to benefit. This is from the private property provisions of the Constitution. [Interjections.]


We want to tell you today that we reject the Budget Vote. Do you know why we reject it? It is because it is useless. [Interjections.]


We want to remind you that, as much as you have been claiming that you have transformed South Africa and that all of us have to celebrate the good story to tell, when it comes to the land question, there is nothing that you can claim as a good story. [Interjections.] All that we have under the leadership of the ANC is failed land transformation. You do not have a narrative to tell about radical land transformation. [Interjections.]


The EFF says that you, together with your DA, should enjoy your post matrimonial relationship, it as long as it lasts. The EFF rejects this budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please ...


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon House Chairperson, ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member of the EFF can you please come to order, as there is a member on the podium?


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: ... and hon Minister and Deputy Ministers, the well known international singer, Phuzekhemisi, asks in one of his songs why there is progress in white areas, but there is little of that in black areas. I presume most of us know the song.



Kodwa kubantu izw’ al’thuthuki;

Kodwa kubelungu, lithuthuka nsuku zonke.



Minister, ... [Interjections.] ... I have always wondered if these lyrics are true.


In 2009 the department developed a Comprehensive Rural Development Programme. This programme has three pillars or phases. The first phase deals with basic human needs, including infrastructure and food security. The second phase deals with rural enterprise development. [Interjections.] The third one ...


Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Can you please take your seat?


Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, is it parliamentary to ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Sorry. Who is ...


Ms T V TOBIAS: I am here on your right.




Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, is it parliamentary to be abused by having to listen to people who can’t sing?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat? That is not a point of order. Hon Mpontshane, can you please proceed? [Laughter.]


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I was saying that the third phase ...


Mr M L W FILTANE: I have a point of order, Chair.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Another interruption.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Hon Filtane?


Mr M L W FILTANE: That was a beautiful tune. Thank you. [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I’m sure we are all mindful of the time and that today is a Friday. I know some of you might be wanting to leave during the time that ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] Hon Mpontshane, can you please continue?


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, in my previous life I was a choirmaster. I can offer my services. [Interjections.]


I was saying that the third phase of this programme concerns rural industries.


The vision of this programme, very importantly, is to create vibrant, equitable and sustainable rural communities. Big words indeed, but the question remains as to whether we are able to implement these noble intentions.


For instance, let us take one of the envisaged programmes under phase one, which is to develop and promote the green revolution. Now, to succeed in developing the green revolution, we will need, inter alia, agricultural extension officers to help promote this green revolution.


Hon Minister, I know that the training of the officers does not fall within your competency. That means we need to invite the Department of Higher Education and Training to do this. It must wake up to this need. Perhaps, it would also help the Minister not to focus on visits to Cuba and Palestine, if he concentrated on the training of agricultural officers.


Also, hon Minister, two of your intentions are to ensure radical socioeconomic change and to develop rural towns. Now, when it comes to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, for instance, Cogta is busy merging some of the rural municipalities, whilst the intention in your department on the other hand, is to develop those municipalities or small towns. Are we saying that the strategy is failing, when on the other hand the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is busy merging these small rural municipalities and towns. One would like to know that, hon Minister.


I was happy, hon Minister, when you inspiringly quoted the former President. One of the speeches he made from this podium immediately came to my mind, where he asked the question: What happens when the dream is deferred? It explodes. Those were very important words. We see protests.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mpontshane, your time is up.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: We see land grabs. Is it up?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, hon member.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: On a point ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Just look at the time on your left.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Am I being compensated for the disruptions, hon Chairperson?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You have been compensated indeed.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you.


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: The IFP characteristically supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. Hon member from the DA, you had a point of order.


Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, I think we are all forgetting that we are busy here in the House, and I am just drawing your attention to Rule 47, which provides that members may not be interrupted. It says here:


No member shall interrupt another member whilst speaking, except to call attention to a point of order or a question of privilege.


I think, Chairperson, that we are again falling into the trap of just standing up to say something, without putting a proper point of order. Can I ask you please to look at that?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. I’m sure you heard my rulings on both occasions, that those were not points order and I warned members accordingly. So we do take note, and I’m sure your colleagues have now been reminded of this too. I call hon Deputy Minister Skwatsha to the podium.









The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr M Skwatsha): Madam Chair, honoured guests, our visitors from Indonesia and Kenya, Minister Nkwinti and other Ministers present here, Deputy Ministers, all Members of Parliament present, and ladies and gentlemen, in this department we are dealing with the issue of land, and land is key to ensuring that the long, sad story of colonialism and apartheid in our country has a happy ending.


Central to the work of our department is the National Development Plan, which has been endorsed by the majority of parties in our country as our guide up to 2030. Chapter 6 of the NDP says that an integrated and inclusive rural economy is the goal that we pursue.


A leading question at this time might be: Do those of us who in the past have said they support the NDP truly mean it? I mention this since, while I was watching TV on Monday, 4 May, I saw the hon Leader of the Opposition, who had previously pledged his loyalty to the NDP, appearing on television, saying:


I do not support everything that is in the NDP. Of course, there are elements of it that are flawed and that are wrong. For example, there are the focuses on how we bring about land reform – there are some challenges there.


This immediately contradicts his outgoing leader, Helen Zille, who had this to say, and I quote:


... the Western Cape is prepared to move beyond this highly successful model to pilot the NDP’s proposal. We are very keen to participate with all role-players to make it succeed, and to make people who work the land, the owners of the land.


It appears ... [Interjections.] Oh, others are individuals. It appears that the opposition cannot decide whether they support the NDP or not. For us there is no confusion – we are busy implementing it.


Chapter 6 of the NDP sets a target of transferring 20% of agricultural land to black people by 2030. Chair, 20% of the 82 million ha of agricultural land translates to 16,4 million ha. From 1994 to December 2014 the state transferred 7,5 million ha, or 46% of the 16,4 million ha, to black farmers. Of the 7,5 million ha already transferred, 4,4 million ha were redistributed land and 3,1 million ha were restitution in settlement of land claims. To meet the NDP target, we need to transfer another 8,9 million ha of agricultural land by 2030.


For the last financial year, the department acquired 209 580 ha at a cost of R1,2 billion. In the current financial year we intend acquiring 208 350 ha at a cost of R1,253 billion.


The intention of land acquisition is to recreate the class of black commercial farmers which was deliberately destroyed by the 1913 Natives Land Act and similar colonial and apartheid laws.


In his state of the nation address, His Excellency President Zuma outlined a nine-point plan to ignite growth and create jobs. The second of the nine points is: “Revitalising agriculture and the agro-processing value chain.”


This is the context in which the department is implementing and refining the Recapitalisation and Development Programme, RADP. The programme was designed to help struggling land reform farms that had received insufficient support, but had the potential to become successful. These farms were supposed to receive technical and financial support from the department.


The Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency conducted a review and made proposals to make the programme more effective. The portfolio committee has been briefed on the findings, challenges and turnaround plan.


There are numerous success stories, some of which were related during portfolio committee meetings. For example, Selami Poultry in the Dr Kenneth Kaunda District Municipality in the North West, which received RADP money, now has a contract with Supreme Poultry, to whom they sold over 270 000 birds in December 2013.


Much attention has been given to ensuring that we make well-considered decisions regarding the selection of farms to be acquired and the beneficiaries of allocated farms, as well as which farms to recapitalise. The National Land Allocation and Recapitalisation Control Committee was established in 2013 to ensure that land reform proposals for acquisition, allocation, recapitalisation and development are consistent with government policy.


Money will also be allocated for production of key commodities identified in the Agricultural Policy Action Plan, Apap, for agri-parks by rural producers outside of the land reform farms. This includes rural village-based producers and owners of their own land.


In addition, state land has been identified and allocated for the Animal and Veld Management Programme and the River Valley Catalytic Project.


We are also acting on another NDP proposal, the creation of district land committees, which we are now calling district land reform committees. These committees will be responsible for identifying 20% of the commercial agricultural land in the district and giving commercial farmers the option of assisting its transfer to black farmers.


In order to implement the NDP’s recommendations, these committees will identify farms suitable for acquisition by government; advise the Minister on the strategic support needs of such farms; identify and interview potential candidates for farm allocation; and advise the Minister on resolving land rights conflicts. The department will also give administrative and secretariat assistance and training to the committees. In the current year, we will implement new guidelines for the selection of beneficiaries for land reform.


The average South African farmer is 62 years old. For this reason we have recently created an incubation programme for agricultural graduates. They will be linked to land reform farms as part of a mentorship programme.


I now turn to land claims. I want to advise the hon Mhlongo that in future ...



 ...gqithisa imbhalelwano kaMphathiswa kuye; ...



 ... otherwise you are delaying the hon Nkosi.



 ... La mbhalelwano ...



 ... belongs there, not to you.


This year the commission aims to settle 1 445 claims. Emphasis will also be placed on researching claims received in the first lodgement period.


To cope with the number of claims the commission is receiving in the current lodgement period, an electronic lodgement system has been developed. Claims can be submitted at any of the 14 lodgement offices. The commission has also procured mobile lodgement offices.



Luyaqhuma ngoku uthuli ezilalini.


In Qwaqwa there are two of these lodgement offices – the Gemsbok and the Maruping. On Monday we were in Libode ...



 ... kwiKumkani yamaMpondo. Aluzoqhuma ngomso, luqhuma ngoku. Walala wasala. [Kwaqhwatywa.]



We have made good progress with the second phase of the land audit. The focus of phase 2 of the land audit will be on individuals who own 48,2% of the country’s land - 46,5 million ha. The exercise will determine ownership in terms of nationality, race, and gender.


As part of the worldwide celebrations of International Map Year, planned for the years 2015 and 2016, our department recently hosted a delegation of geospatial experts from nine countries, including representatives of the Executive Committee of the International Cartographic Association.


We are short of young farmers and we are also short of surveyors. Since 2008 the department has been offering bursaries to aspirant students to obtain qualifications in this regard.


Communications plays an important role in accurately portraying the department’s multiple functions by informing the media and citizens. This includes their roles in rural development and land reform initiatives. We are working to improve our communications in the coming year.


Our deeds and geomatics systems rank among the best in the world. They are, however, outdated and the modernisation of our cadastre system was initiated two years ago.


The process was, however, suspended in the wake of allegations of maladministration. The matter was referred to the Special Investigating Unit, SIU. The SIU brought a court application against the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, Gijima and the department. This process was suspended in December 2014. Subsequently, the project has been rescoped, and the upgrade of the cadastre IT infrastructure is scheduled for completion this year at a cost of R164 million.


Hon members and Minister, the only thing I want to say is:



Godukani zizwe liphelile ityala; godukani bantu iphelile into ibithethwa. [Uwelewele.] [Laphela ixesha.]









Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister and Deputy Ministers, ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): It is “Chairperson”, hon member.


Mr M L W FILTANE: Chairperson, sorry.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes. Thank you.


Mr M L W FILTANE: My apologies, hon Chairperson. Honoured guests from the local area, as well as elsewhere, the UDM supports the budget as a matter of principle, as well as for practical considerations. Without it we cannot move forward. [Applause.]


However, we hope that there will be no underexpenditure this year. There was an underexpenditure of over R5 million last year, and that is one of the reasons why I feel I must stress this point.


Hon Minister, we as the UDM appreciate the fact that you made a written commitment to settle the 1998 Baziya land claim. That is welcome news. We are certain that this commitment will lead to an unprecedented economic boom in the Baziya area under the King Sabata Dalindyebo Local Municipality. We very much appreciate that.


During the public hearings in February 2015 very strong public opinion was registered with regard to the possibility of limiting the scope of rural development to agriculture only, when, in fact, it covers a whole range of sectors that link directly to the socioeconomic development of our communities. Land reform, according to our understanding, is not necessarily rural development exclusively, as its functions cut across all settlements, be they rural or urban.


There is a need to draw a clear line of distinction between the functions of the Department of Rural Development and those of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. This is given more importance seeing that these departments dovetail under one executive authority at provincial level. This needs attention.


Rural development should by and large focus on land acquisition, the secure tenure thereof, and the development of appropriate infrastructure in consultation with relevant stakeholders, for use by owners to advance their economic goals.


Farm workers should receive a goodwill payment, in cash, upon the purchase of those farms. The reason we are advancing this proposal is because they contribute to the economic success of those farms. That is why we are coming out strongly in favour of this. It should not be a question of just paying the owner of the farm and then they are left to struggle.


It remains a constant concern that the Ingonyama Trust Board continues to falter with respect to compliance issues, yet does not demonstrate community socioeconomic beneficiation from its share of the public purse that it gets on an annual basis. If the Ingonyama Trust still has to exist, the Minister should consider reconceptualising its mandate with a new and different funding model. What the board does now is diametrically opposed to its stated mission.


Most of the postsettlement programmes of the department that we visited in the Northern Cape in November were either administratively problematic or in a state of operational collapse, except for those being run with honest partners.


This department has a strong constitutional mandate to discharge and we are certain that, with the current leadership, it has all the potential to make the lives of ordinary people better.


A parting shot: Just do it and do what the majority of South Africans expect of you. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I would like to welcome the school that has joined us for this debate. Unfortunately, I do not as yet have your name, but you are welcome. [Applause.]







Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ...



... I want to say to the hon Minister that we should begin at the beginning. When he started his speech, he quoted the Preamble to the Constitution. Hon Minister, yes, let me start there. I am an Afrikaner. I am a white man. I am a South African, and I am a white African. Regarding the part you referred to in the Preamble, that we must honour those people who built and developed this land, my ancestors were part of that, and you will have to deal with that.



Maar ek wil vir die agb Minister sê, u het ingrypende aankondigings gemaak. Dis te wyte aan die feit dat u sekere grondplafonne daar stel, dat u dan sê dat daar spesiale gevalle sal wees, en dat u dan sê dat die res basies onteien gaan word. Dit beteken dat die regering van die dag nou afstand gedoen het van sy aanvanklike beleid and standpunt van 30% van herverdeling van wit, blanke landbougrond na swart boere toe. U het nou afstand gedoen daarvan.


Agb Minister, ek is werklik teleurgesteld in u, want die ANC kan baie duidelik nie hul woord hou nie. Die rede hoekom ek dit sê is dat u voor die verkiesing – nadat u die knie gebuig het voor die EFF – gekom met die beginsel van die vyftig-vyftig verdeling. Toe het u gesê dat u die landbou-organisasies ’n geleentheid gee om met voorstelle te kom.


Maar nog voordat die tydperk verstryk het aan die einde van Maart, toe kom die President en hy maak aankondigings oor die vyftig-vyftig verdeling. Dit is niks anders as om die landbou-organisasies te misken nie. Want hoekom moet jy nou nog verdere voorstelle maak, as daar klaar besluit is in die regering dat hulle net eenvouding sal voortgaan?


U is werklik soos die spreekwoordelike volstruis wat sy kop in die sand druk. U het hier gestaan en gesê dat banke, verskeie organisasies en belange groepe vir u sê dat die feit dat u wil verhoed dat buitelanders grond in Suid-Afrika moet besit, nie aanvaarbaar is nie. Maar u sê eintlik dat u u nie daaraan steur nie; u gaan net eenvoudig voort.


Agb Minister, die grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika het misluk tot op hierdie stadium as gevolg van onbevoegtheid in die department – en ek praat van oor al die jare – en korrupsie wat daar plaasgevind het. U self het erken dat feitlik 90% van alle grondhervormingsprojekte in Suid-Afrika het misluk.


Maar u gaan net eenvoudig voort. U wil nou net eenvoudig die grond gaan onteien.


Agb Minister, waar gaan u die geld kry om dit te doen? Of sê u eintlik, ons wil die grond vat, en ons sal besluit wat julle betaal word? In so geval sê ek vir u, u skep ’n resep vir konflik in Suid-Afrika – ’n konflik oor grond wat nie u of die ANC-regering sal kan hanteer nie. Ek dank u.






Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, in terms of the Expropriation Bill the state would be empowered to take property upfront by notice of expropriation to the owner, and leave it to those affected to seek redress in the courts. Common law dictates that the state cannot simply seize property. Apart from this, the Constitution itself sets out a number of requirements that must be fulfilled for a lawful expropriation to take effect.


The Expropriation Bill, in its current format, is both unlawful and unconstitutional. The Bill in its present form is draconian, giving all state entities the power to take from farmers, firms, miners and ordinary South Africans their most important asset.


Instead of building a nation, building social cohesion, and building a winning economy, the ANC is intent on destruction.


The Bill undermines property and home ownership; will deter growth, investment and job creation; contradicts the National Development Plan; and is counterproductive to the eradication of unemployment, poverty and inequality.


That changes to the current expropriation legislation are required is a given fact. What is also a given fact is that the current Expropriation Bill is unlawful, unconstitutional and counterproductive to the wellbeing of our nation.


The pressure on our cities ... [Interjections.]


Ms D D RAPHUTHI: O a pota! [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: No, no. [Interjections.] No, no. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Order, hon members. Hon Madisha?


Mr W M MADISHA: I’ll wait a bit. Did you hear what she said? Please, can you just stop the clock? Did you hear what that woman said to me?


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): What woman? [Interjections.] Hon members, ...


Mr W M MADISHA: That member. She said to me, “O a pota.” [“You are talking nonsense.”] Do you understand what that means? [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon members, ...


Mr W M MADISHA: I absolutely cannot agree with that.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon members, ...


Mr W M MADISHA: Absolutely not!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Okay, hon Madisha. Please sit down then ... [Inaudible.]


Mr W M MADISHA: No, no. You need to deal with that.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): That is why I am saying you should sit down.


Mr W M MADISHA: You need to deal with that. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon members, please make it easy for members who are delivering their speeches to finish their speeches and be heard. Did any hon member here say, “O a pota”?


Mr W M MADISHA: She did. [Interjections.] There she is! [Interjections.] There she is.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Okay. Hon member, please withdraw that. [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: I’ll wait for you, Chairperson.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha!


Mr W M MADISHA: There she is! [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha! Sit down! You have referred the matter to me. I am dealing with it.


Mr W M MADISHA: [Inaudible.] Deal with it.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon member, can you please withdraw it?


Ms D D RAPHUTHI: I withdraw it.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Thank you.


Mr W M MADISHA: And you must never repeat that kind of thing. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha!


Mr W M MADISHA: You must never do that.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): You are eating into your time.


Mr W M MADISHA: [Inaudible.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): No! No! You are not in control here, hon Madisha. You are eating into your time. We have completed the ruling ...


Mr W M MADISHA: You ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): You are not in control here – of the time, whether we stop the clock or not. You are eating into your time.


Mr W M MADISHA: You, you, you ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha!


Mr W M MADISHA: No! No, no ways. [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): The clock is ticking. Your time is running out, hon Madisha. [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: You are not going to run things like that. [Interjections.] Okay, let me go on ... [Interjections.] ... with these eight pages I have here. [Laughter.]


Hon Minister, what is also a given fact is that the current Expropriation Bill is unlawful, unconstitutional and counterproductive to the wellbeing of our nation.


The pressure on our cities, like the cities elsewhere in the world, is enormous and unrelenting. This is attributable to the failure of rural development.


The mandate of the department is to create an equitable and sustainable land dispensation. As such, it must serve as a catalyst for rural development. We hear the department endlessly repeating its mission of creating sustainable rural livelihoods, decent work, social development and economic advancement for all.


We give this department 1 out of 100, because it has not achieved anything at all. It is a dismal and tragic failure. The people from the rural areas continue to move out because there is no development where they live. Restitution remains unfinished business.


Those given land ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha.


Mr W M MADISHA: ... have generally not made a go of it at all.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha.




The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Your time is up. [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: I will sit down. There are ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha. Hon Madisha! Hon Madisha! [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: Minister, ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha!


Mr W M MADISHA: ... there are 10 pages here that I wanted to read. Okay? [Interjections.] I will call them to come and give this to you, so that you can look into it. But I want to ... [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha! [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: I want to insist ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha! [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, you wait. I want to insist ... [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha! [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: I want to insist that, if this is the kind of ANC that some of us were in for three decades, then we don’t understand ... [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.


Mr W M MADISHA: ... the kinds of things that are happening. This is wrong.




Mr W M MADISHA: This is what we don’t understand, really.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha, do you want us to remove you?


Mr W M MADISHA: It is wrong. It is wrong. It is ... [Inaudible.]


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, the hon member is out of order.




Mr W M MADISHA: This is not taking us anywhere.


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: He is eating into other people’s time.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha!


Mr W M MADISHA: You wasted our time!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Madisha!


Mr W M MADISHA: You wasted our time and, as a result of that we could not go on with what we were supposed to say here. [Interjections.] It is wrong!


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): You are out of order, hon Madisha. You are out of order! [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: Just like you all. Just like all these people! [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): That’s not showing respect for this House. [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: You yourself have wasted our time. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): You are out of order, hon Madisha. [Interjections.]


Mr W M MADISHA: Just like you. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): I call the hon Dudley to the podium. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon Malgas!









Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Chairperson, apartheid restrictions on African land and home ownership were among the most damaging aspects of past racial discrimination. Since these restrictions began to crumble in 1975 and were finally abolished in 1991, African ownership of houses, land, and other assets has finally been able to grow, and has done so exponentially. Hon Minister, we do appeal to you to do whatever it takes to ensure that this growth is not undermined.


The ACDP is extremely concerned that the Expropriation Bill of 2015, recently put forward by Public Works, will make it much harder to build prosperity and overcome past disadvantage by undermining property rights, deterring investment, and choking off growth and jobs. What input has this Ministry had in regard to this legislation – legislation which will impact enormously on development potential?


The ACDP view is that while expropriation in the public interest, as well as for public purposes, is clearly a necessity, compensation cannot be wished away without negative consequences for the country as a whole. In order to decide what is just and equitable compensation, we do note the proposal of the IRR that market value should be weighed against the four discount factors listed in the Constitution. These include the history of the property and the extent to which the state has previously funded its purchase, as well as compensation for consequential loss.


The ACDP is concerned that the present Bill overlooks requirements that should be met before any expropriation can be valid under the Constitution, and it takes away the jurisdiction of the courts, by allowing them to adjudicate solely on the compensation offered and not on the overall validity of the expropriation. It also limits court review, in that the owner would have only 60 days to sue for additional compensation, failing which they are deemed to have accepted the state’s offer.


South Africa, we are told, needs growth of 6% of GDP a year, plus increased investment and employment, and rural development is as dependent on this as any other sector. The concern is that this Bill threatens to reverse any gains we have made in this direction. Under its provisions, more and more land and other assets will become vested in the state, disempowering all South Africans. We only have to look north to Zimbabwe, west to Venezuela, and east to North Korea to understand why this Bill must be rejected in its present form.


Property rights are essential to individual prosperity and political freedom, and we appeal to you, hon Minister, to ensure through this department that they are not eroded. The ACDP would like to support this budget and the important work that the department has to do. We are, however, very concerned about aspects of pending legislative proposals. Thank you. [Applause.]









Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen, South Africa has entered its second decade of freedom, characterised by the strengthening of democracy and the acceleration of the programme to improve the quality of life of all.


Also, the year 2015 marks the 60th anniversary of the Freedom Charter as adopted in Kliptown in 1955.


 Therefore, a point of departure for this debate is that “the land (must) be shared among those who work it!” That is our point of departure.



Furthermore, the status quo in the relations of property, power and production in many large-scale commercial farming areas and communal areas, which is skewed and biased against the poor, poses enormous risk to the stability of South Africa.


The ANC, as part of its struggle against apartheid, targeted redress of land injustices. For example, on the occasion of the 73rd anniversary of the ANC on 8 January 1985, one of the greatest stalwarts of our movement, the late Comrade Oliver Tambo, delivered a message to the National Executive Committee of the ANC, in which he articulated the urgency of this matter. He said, and I quote:


The dispossession of our people of the land that is theirs remains one of the most burning national grievances. The gross injustice of this historic crime has been compounded by the racists’ arrogant attempt to deprive the African majority of their inalienable birthright as citizens of their country, South Africa. Millions of our people in the rural areas are brutally exploited as agricultural workers on farms carved out of their ancestral lands. Their daily lives are dominated by the dictates of the racist white farmers and agricultural companies against whom they have absolutely no redress, because they are the least organised and mobilised. The land question must be resolved, if needs be, the hard way.


[Interjections.] The hard way. I just pray that we will not get to resolving it the hard way.


However, there are the kind of attitudes that we get from some racists in this country. When the Minister of Labour spoke about a minimum wage for farm workers, this made them decide to get rid of South Africans and replace them with undocumented people whom they think they can exploit without fear. [Applause.]


There are laws in this country, and all people who work within the borders of South Africa, regardless of whether they are documented or not documented, whether they are South Africans or not South Africans, are protected by the labour laws in this country. [Applause.]


As the leader of society, the ANC has led the struggle of the people of South Africa for the achievement of democracy, being given a resounding mandate by the electorate since 1994 to lead society.


The ANC-led government set out to redistribute land in pursuit of social justice. Such a programme of land reform has been considered to be a central and driving force for a programme of rural development.


Over the years society has called for a faster pace of redistribution of land, and criticised land reform for being detached from rural development. The 52nd national conference of the ANC in 2007 acknowledged, amongst others, a need to ensure that approaches to land reform achieved their planned outcome at the scale anticipated.


Furthermore, the conference reaffirmed a need to locate land reform within a broader strategy of rural development; hence our Comprehensive Rural Development Programme and agrarian transformation as a strategy to alter the structure of our rural economy.


For insightful clarity, ANC conference resolutions, policy pronouncements from the National Executive Committee, Cabinet makgotla, January 8 statements, and state of the nation addresses are points of reference. From these, two broad areas that are of vital significance to rural development and land reform are radical socioeconomic transformation, as espoused in our election manifesto, and employment in the agriculture and agro-processing sectors, as proposed in the National Development Plan.


How can the programme of land reform, restitution, redistribution, tenure reform and development support and contribute to these broad objectives?


The NDP proposes a multifaceted approach to redressing the persisting manifestations of the ills of colonialism and apartheid, which are unemployment, poverty and inequality. Such a multifaceted approach includes the creation of more jobs through agricultural development, based on effective land reform and the growth of irrigated agriculture and land production. This can be seen as one of the ways to contribute to the development of an inclusive rural economy.


The ANC government, therefore, continues to respond accordingly to the challenges that come with implementation of programmes aiming to attain social change.


With regard to restitution, the ANC election manifesto made the following commitments: to accelerate the settlement of the remaining land claims submitted before the cut-off date of 1998; reopen the period for the lodgement of claims for restitution of land for a period of five years, commencing in 2014; and codify the exceptions to the 1913 cut-off date for the descendants of the Khoi and San, and identify affected heritage sites and historical landmarks.


Twenty years ago, in 1994, this House passed the Restitution of Land Rights Act, in terms of which 79 696 land claims were received by the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights by 31 December 1998. By December 2014 only more than 98% of those land claims had been settled. Approximately 8 200 land claims had not been settled yet. By March 2014 restitution had returned over 3 million ha of land to its rightful owners – 3 million ha! – benefiting over 300 000 households and about 1,8 million beneficiaries. Siyaquba! [We are moving forward!][Applause.] It has had an impact on a lot more people than any other programme of land reform.


From an oversight perspective a great deal of work has been achieved over the last two decades of our democracy. Indeed, successes should be celebrated.


We also draw lessons to unlock anomalies experienced in the processes of restoring land rights to victims of apartheid forced removals. One of these is that the Land Claims Court is overburdened with cases and it takes too long to get the cases finalised in the court. In the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform oversight work reveals that plans and programmes are being implemented to mitigate the limitations cited.


Hon Minister, I think we need to engage with the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster. There is no reason why magistrates cannot deal with certain cases of disputes related to land. In many instances you will find that there are clashes between traditional authorities – your people are staying in my area while your people are on the other side of the area. When it comes to loyalty, the people who do not necessarily belong to Chief Skosana, and are the Nchabelengs although they are living in the Skosana area, have to respect the chief in that area. Those kinds of cases can be handled by magistrates. They don’t have to go the High Court. I think we need to engage at that level and see what interventions can be made.


There are other legislative interventions that the committee and the department are involved in. There is the Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Act of 2014. Apart from the reopening of the lodgement of land claims to cater for those people that missed the opportunity to claim before 1998, this amendment makes some progressive provisions to assist in taking the process forward, and faster, such as the following: the creation of the national land register, better managing the data bases, and the prioritisation of land claims lodged before 1998.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Nchabeleng, your time is up.


Mr M E NCHABELENG: The ANC support this budget as a tool. The EFF said that the budget is useless, but the budget is a valuable instrument to measure and monitor progress. I thank you. [Applause.]









The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me extend our greetings to our Minister, Deputy Ministers, Members of Parliament who are present here, our officials, our distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen. On this the 60th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, we remember the famous words: “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white”.


His Excellency the President, in the state of the nation address, announced a 9-point plan to turn the South African economy around. The Department of Rural Development and Land

Reform has a significant role to play in several of the points announced. However, most importantly, we have a key role in revitalising agriculture and the agro-processing value chain. Given the nature of our mandate of rural development, we will also be driving initiatives to give effect to unlocking the potential of small, medium and micro enterprises, co-operatives, and township and rural enterprises.


Our Constitution exhorts us to improve the quality of life of all citizens, and free the potential of each person, and we all share the responsibility of finding the best way to do this.


Since shortly after we opened our doors as the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform in 2009, our flagship project has been the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme. The sole objective of the CRDP is to transform the rural economy. That means bringing real benefits to rural people and the poor across South Africa. It means meeting basic human needs, enabling enterprise development, and providing vital infrastructure. We have encountered and cleared many obstacles, yet many remain.


Radical change must bring real benefits to rural people and the poor across South Africa. The National Development Plan provides a long-term vision for accelerating development so that food security can increase, and unemployment and inequality can be reduced, creating a more inclusive society. This will be achieved through diligent implementation of our plans and programmes, as articulated in our annual performance plan.


The department supports numerous socioeconomic infrastructure projects. One of these, completed last year, is the Beaufort West Youth Hub. It consists of a technical vocational education and training college for the youth, a community swimming pool, a gymnasium, a community amphitheatre, and a combi-court for several sports disciplines. The total cost was R55 million. This facility, and others like it, underscore our commitment to placing youth at the centre of development by giving them opportunities to access the skills required to build our country.


Over the past financial year the Animal and Veld Management Programme has gained momentum across the country, with more than 200 projects implemented. Significant progress was made in KwaZulu-Natal where several projects were completed at a value of R45 million, benefiting 2 000 livestock farmers.


Over the past years we have also implemented 31 projects to revitalise five irrigation schemes across the country, with a key focus on KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, the Eastern Cape and the North West, through the implementation of the River Valley Catalytic Project. This programme deals primarily with the revitalisation of irrigation schemes and agricultural development along river banks in South Africa. This financial year we intend to build on the gains that we have achieved thus far.


In the state of the nation address His Excellency the President, announced the establishment of district agri-parks. In the medium term an agri-park will be established in all 44 districts of South Africa. An agri-park will essentially ensure development, from primary production through to processing and value addition, while at the same time fostering development of related enterprises. The agri-park will be designed in a manner that allows the hub of the model to eventually emerge as a centre for various activities not limited to agriculture. These include warehousing; processing; retail; input supplies; distribution; services access; financial services; market access; and training and development.


These parks will organise and mobilise farmers and agribusiness entrepreneurs. Partnerships with government departments, such as the Departments of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, of Trade and Industry, of Small Business Development, of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and of Water and Sanitation, as well as provincial departments and district municipalities, is critical in order to develop economic infrastructure like roads, energy, water, ICT, transportation, and logistics corridors that support the agri-park value chain.


We are looking to the agri-park model to achieve a transformational breakthrough - improving capacity and production of smallholder farmers, value chain development, market access, encouraging private farmers’ participation and investment and, most significantly, ensuring that resources are better utilised through focused interventions that can contribute to significant job creation.


In this financial year the department will drive the establishment of agri-parks using the current programmes as levers for implementation. The following programmes will assist us to drive this initiative: the River Valley Catalytic Project, the Animal and Veld Management Programme, Rural Enterprise and Industrial Development, Rural Infrastructure and Development, and the National Rural Youth Service Corps programme. Since the instruction in the state of the nation address, work has been progressing steadily.


An evidence-based approach is being followed, to ensure that all pertinent issues, from production to supply and market access, are considered in order to mitigate risks in implementation. To this end, detailed analysis has been conducted, looking at several variables to ensure that areas selected for agri-park development are based on economic advantage and fundamental elements of the value chain for dominant commodity products in defined areas.


The following analysis has been completed: socioeconomic; commodity value chain; community; infrastructure, including roads; energy; water; agro-processing facilities; and so on. Income and economic data have been provided by the Department of Economic Development. The analysis work has been done in partnership with the Departments of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and of Economic Development, as well as the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.


Based on the above, the department has had consultative sessions with provincial and local government. As a result of these interactions, sites have been identified in nearly all of the 27 districts across the country, and in some areas work has already commenced. The intention is that many of the activities will run simultaneously, to ensure that we are able to meet the deadline of having the implementation on the ground by September.


Given the current challenges faced by black smallholder farmers in production and market access, as well as the limited inroads they have made into the agricultural value chain, it is proposed that the state will develop a support model for the agri-park for a period of 10 years to ensure sustainability.


The agri-park will create a class of black commercial farmers that have the necessary technical expertise and the ability to supply the market sustainably and at the desired market quality. This will ensure rural economic transformation and food security for our communities in the rural areas.


The department has committed R2 billion for the implementation of the agri-park programme this year. This will be allocated across the districts, with an additional portion of the resources being made available to the most vulnerable municipalities to assist them with technical support and capacity to drive this initiative. To ensure that we have the required technical capacity, both at national and district level, to roll this out simultaneously in all districts, a project management unit, with satellite district offices, will be established as an implementation support mechanism.


In this financial year R110 million will be invested in 20 projects to support the River Valley Catalytic Project. The primary focus will be to revitalise irrigation schemes and the development of smallholder farmers, focusing on horticulture, grain and lucern to support the livestock industry.


R174 million will be invested in the Animal and Veld Management Programme, which will focus on the rehabilitation of degraded lands to improve crop production, debushing and infrastructure to support the livestock industry.


R223 million will be invested in agro-processing infrastructure to drive the development of the hub of the agri-park model. This will include various types of infrastructure to support the various commodities, including abattoirs, mills, dairies, silos, and so on.


We have also reorganised our industry and enterprise support programme to focus on certain key areas that will support smallholder farmers, women, the youth and people with disabilities.


R208 million will be invested in supporting farmers in their improving their production and other related enterprises directly linked to the agri-park model. This support will include capacity building, business planning and operating capital.


We will work closely with the Department of Small Business Development, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, and other state-owned enterprises that can assist with business development. Enterprises will be supported to develop the following commodities: livestock, poultry, grains and horticulture, among others. In this year we will also focus on the development of enterprises that focus on niche crops and aquaculture.


We will be working closely with relevant departments to ensure that we utilise the state markets fully, and 30% set-asides, as announced by His Excellency the President, with a specific focus on the commodities produced in the agri-park, aligned to the Agricultural Policy Action Plan.


The rural industries development programme will also investigate equity models that will give rural people access to value chain industries.


We will also build on the work that has started in the development of the arts and crafts industry in the rural areas. More than 1 000 women have been trained and assisted in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Eastern Cape. We have been able to drive this programme through a partnership with Mninizo Trading. A strategy is being finalised to upscale this programme in this financial year, so as to ensure that it is expanded and extended to all provinces and also includes women in all the various sectors of the industry. [Applause.]


To support these co-operatives with market access, the department has helped to establish a retail outlet in Durban. This, together with the trade fairs that co-operatives have been able to participate in, has significantly improved access to domestic and various international markets. R37 million will be invested this year in building on this work. This can become a significant job driver in rural areas.


In the past year we supported the Abasuki co-operative ... [Time expired.] Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]









Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Chair and hon members, I wish to say to the hon Minister Nkwinti, I can see he is slowly getting there.


The PAC views the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform as the foundation of transformation and national sovereignty. There can never be sustainable food security without land reform. There can never be food safety without rural human resource development.


Nevertheless, the department risks being like the old Native Affairs Department or the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. The mandate is too wide; the department is expected to be a state within a state. Although with the paradigm shift the department is pregnant with opportunities, it can push this nation to have its independence from invisible external controls.


The PAC put it to this House that there is no nation that can determine its destiny without control of its land. The state currently owns less than 15% of the land. As we heard on Tuesday from the Department of Public Works, government is intending to sell more land. So, are municipalities led by the capital city with its auctioning programme? Land is a critical productive asset; hence foreigners control us through our own land.


Landlessness has made indigenous people a “pariah in the land of (their) birth” as Sol Plaatje observed in 1913. Therefore, we call on this department to speed up the Bill to prevent foreign ownership of land.


The nightmare cannot be solved with a willing buyer, willing seller approach. Even with the Office of the Surveyor General, we can see that the problem will stay with us for as long as we use the same evaluation methodology. The more the Surveyor General employs the same evaluators and evaluation agency, the more the land will remain out of reach. The PAC calls for new logic regarding land evaluation. It calls for a new methodology, with fundamentally different factors and variables.


We as the PAC of Azania would like to state that the rural poverty is a direct result of removals from arable land. Rural life is a life of peasantry, and therefore dependent on productivity of the land. Land that has low production capacity is discouraging to rural communities. Moreover, it cannot be the centre of gravity for the local economies. Rural industries can only be facilitated out of major crops. Repealing of section 25 of the Constitution is the answer.


The PAC is thrilled with the use of technology and the mastering of land data. The move from a manual to a sophisticated system, without compromising information security, has pleased this nation.


Having said that, let me say that the PAC of Azania is in favour of this Budget Vote. [Applause.]









Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, Minister Nkwinti spoke here today about the Ready to Govern document. He will see that the benches of the DA members are empty today. We are here to make sure that we also prepare our “Ready to Govern” document, so that we can take this country forward. [Laughter.] The Deputy Minister that is laughing so loudly must just look at the results of Fort Hare – that is what is to come in the future.


This department is causing massive uncertainty in the agricultural sector. They are alternating between hot and cold taps.


First the Minister accuses the agricultural sector of not coming to the party with proposals on land reform. Then the sector responds by providing proposals. Minister Nkwinti praises them and announces that we can work on implementation plans. The next minute the President announces new plans, including land caps and the so called 50/50 model.


These announcements even had Mr Mantashe confused, and Minister Zokwana, who is sitting here, told farmers that they must not worry about these proposals, as they were only a negotiating tactic.


Well today, Minister, you proposed something else, that all land above 5000 ha would be expropriated. That is what I heard. I have unfortunately not seen your speech, and I will have to look at it again. So, Minister, can you speak out clearly here today and tell all the people in South Africa what they are to expect from this government? That is because you propose something else every three months, and people cannot plan properly.


Minister, it is also not good enough to have these massive talk shops where you call thousands of people together. It is good for participation, but no one can sit down and actually start planning with you.


I have met with the farmers, the African Farmers Association of South Africa and AgriSA, to talk about the issue of agri-parks. We support the agri-park principle, but no one knows how it is going to be implemented. You say, Minister, that it is going to be implemented in September this year for R2 billion, which is great.


We want implementation, Minister, but not in the way that you are doing it. You announce things, run with something and then come up with something else again after six months. There is no plan that everyone can work on together and make sure that there is implementation.


Minister Zokwana, we have even asked the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries what their role in the implementation of agri-parks is, and they cannot tell us properly. So there is no proper plan.


I am telling you today, Minister, that all these plans are to ensure that the ANC government stays in power. You cannot give anything else to your ... [Interjections.]


Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Chairperson.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon member?


Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: I am rising on a point of order: The member is not addressing you. She is addressing the Minister. [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon member?


Ms A STEYN: I accept that, hon Chair, through you.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Yes. Continue, hon member.


Ms A STEYN: Yes. I want to speak to the hon Deputy Minister Skwatsha. The DA supports land reform. We also support sections of the National Development Plan. There are, however, sections that we do not support. Regarding the section on land reform, if you read that, what does it say? There is nothing about what the Minister announced here today. So how can we support a document that changes every now and again? [Interjections.] What we ...




Ms A STEYN: Hon Chair, I know what we support. We all know and agree.


For example, we do not support land caps. It is unheard of in a country where there are currently 13 000 farms on the market, that a government should implement such a drastic measure, a measure that can put this country in a state of food insecurity.


The Minister made mention of various other countries where this has been implemented. That is a totally different scenario from what is happening in South Africa. South Africa is a dry country. I am asking you this here today, Minister. You tell me, if you cut up sections in the Karoo, how are the people going to get water for their stock? How are you going to say: “This is your 5 000 ha portion”? There is a reason why farms in South Africa are big. It is not because people just want more and more and more and more. [Interjections.] It is not economically viable to have small farms in certain areas of South Africa.


Through you, Chairperson, I want to say this to the Minister. The other thing that I want to talk to you about is the fact that the DA would have allocated a bigger budget to land reform. That is one of the problems that we have with the NDP, Deputy Minister. You do not allocate enough money to land reform. You tell communities that they must put in claims, but you reduce the budget. It just does not make sense. So, listening to what has been said about expropriation now, maybe I understand what you want to do. You want to scare farmers off the land so that the land value can fall, and so that the state can get the land for free. Maybe there is a coalition without ... [Interjections.] Yes.


Minister, I also want to ask you about this. I spoke to some farmers in Limpopo and they were in agreement with the government that they would be buying the land after a certain period during which they had been renting. They have now rented certain land for 24 years. The other day they asked me about this. They said, “Here is a document. Look at it. When will this land become mine?” However, the document, which is new, states that it is a lease without the option to purchase. So you are also lying to the communities that you are representing, Minister. [Interjections.]


Yes, it is because they have a contract ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon member.


Ms A STEYN: ... that has unilaterally changed between what the contract said in the beginning and what the contract is saying now. Suddenly people don’t have the option to purchase, although they had it for 24 years.


So, Minister, I think you need to do the honourable thing here today, and tell the farmers of South Africa what they can expect from this government, because every now and again there is something else on the table.


Lastly I want to talk about the whole issue of willing-buyer, willing-seller, which is now off the table, and we agree with the Constitution. [Interjections.] Minister, you answered – hon Chair through you – my written question on the market value of a certain piece of land in the Eastern Cape. You said that the value of that land was about R2,9 million, although the department bought it for R7 million.


We need to get clarity on things like this. It is for reasons like this that R70 billion of land reform money has bought only 50% of the total value of agricultural land in South Africa. If your department were serious about land reform, and made sure that there was no corruption and things went the way they were supposed to go, the ANC would already have bought 50% of South African land today. Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.] [Applause.]









Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon Chair, I greet the hon Minister and Deputy Ministers of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, the other hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers in our midst, our distinguished international guests from Indonesia and Kenya, the portfolio committee chairperson and hon members of the portfolio committee, the hon members of this august House, the director-general and leading officials of the department, the Chief Land Claims Commissioner, commissioners and their officials, the Ingonyama Trust Board delegation, distinguished guests, members of academia and the media, ladies and gentlemen, comrades, compatriots and friends.


Once again we assemble in this House, shortly after the 21st anniversary of the 27 April 1994 hallmark democratic breakthrough. This saw the historic transfer of power from the hands of the white minority regime to the hands of the majority, under the democratic leadership of the ANC, the people’s vanguard liberation movement.


We meet under the umbrella of the Fifth democratic Parliament, as voted for exactly a year ago, on 7 May 2014, in the national and provincial elections. In these elections the people’s vanguard liberation movement, the ANC, in yet another landslide victory, was given a further mandate to continue to expedite the unfolding transformation agenda.


In particular, the ANC will do this by engaging an even faster and more vigorous gear, called in analytical terms the second phase of the national democratic revolution - the radical economic transformation phase.


The Fifth Parliament will never be like any other Parliament before it, particularly due to the existence of the characteristically unholy, opportunistic, oppositionist alliance of those uneasy bedfellows, the DA and the EFF.


I just want to go into that a little bit. Time permitting, it would have been useful to expose the opportunistic substance of this unholy collaboration, which has seen, among other things, the following. I will just highlight three.


Firstly, there is the “hooliganisation” of the liberal DA, as a consequence of its cross-pollination with its stepcousin and/or bedfellow, the EFF.


Secondly, it has seen the unprecedented and anarchical display of utter ill-discipline and contempt for the elected leadership of this institution and the state. It is utterly manifest, and has ultimately led to a heavy dent in the decorum of the House. In your unholy alliance you have dented the decorum of the House in a manner that is unprecedented over the past 21 years. This has led to the inculcation of reactionary, anti-African values. We want to caution the public and our young people out there that this example of extensive contempt for elders and leaders should never be followed. We need to say to our youth that they should please not try at home what they usually see in these benches. [Applause.]


Thirdly, I would also want to highlight the naked and deliberate attempts by both these uneasy bedfellows to stall, if not sabotage, any progress or advancement of the transformation agenda and its concomitant tasks, like the state of the nation addresses, the policy or budget speeches, and so on.


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, I have a point of order.


THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon Mnguni, please take your seat.


Mr N S MATIASE: Chairperson, the member must be helped to uncode the coded words, because the code is layered with insults. Chair, there is “bedfellows”. Can he be helped to uncode the coded word? Otherwise, I will regard that as a serious offense and attack on the part of the EFF.


THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Okay, hon Matiase. Please sit down. Hon Mnguni, please continue.


Mr P J MNGUNI: Chair, I’m not sure if I understand “unquote”. I didn’t quote from any book or from anyone here. I may just call on you and invite the hon member to please bear the brunt of this. Wotha umlilo Mhlekazi [You are playing with fire.] [Applause.] That is because we just have to heat the debate up a little bit.


Tasks such as the state of the nation addresses, budget speeches and everything else have had to be disrupted, just as we saw a few seconds ago, despite the fact that these have come about as a consequence of the popular will or the democratic mandate.


These are some of the characteristic features which we say attest to the Fifth Parliament’s being very, very different from all previous Parliaments, particularly because the decorum of the House has been lost.


Indeed, as we engage in this debate today, as has been said by many ANC speakers at this podium and on other platforms elsewhere, it is exactly 47 days before the 60th anniversary of the people’s document, the Freedom Charter, adopted in Kliptown on 26 June 1955.


This blueprint for a democratic, nonracial, nonsexist society has been dubbed names by our detractors throughout its 60-year history. The pre-1994 white minority junta named it a communist document; yet our ultra-left detractors called it a liberal/capitalist document.


I know that the Johnny-come-latelies have to identify where they stand in relation to analysing the charter. For now, they pretend that they espouse the Charter.


These distorted views of the people’s charter have been, are and will continue to be wrong. The Freedom Charter is neither a socialist or communist document, nor a capitalist or liberal document. The charter can best be understood in the context of the correct grasp of the theory of the national democratic revolution, or even the correct scientific application of the socialist theory in the South African context or circumstances.


As has been echoed by our comrades over and over again, and even at this podium today by those before me, the charter is instructive in its clause on the land question, through its provision that, and I quote: “The land shall be shared among those who work it!” In the people’s document, this is deliberated in even clearer terms or detail. Indeed, the Freedom Charter’s provision, through the above clause, is also typically mapped through the green colour in the ANC’s banner. We have all talked about the Freedom Charter because, while it is one message, it has many voices.


Regarding the policy speeches, the ANC, having checked, is very satisfied to note that the ministerial and therewith the departmental policy pronouncements typically capture the letter and spirit of the ANC’s and the government’s key policy positions.


I will refer to a few: the ANC’s 53rd conference resolutions of Mangaung in 2012; the Reconstruction and Development Plan; the Ready to Govern document; the National Development Plan – there are no mixed signals; the New Growth Path; the election manifesto; and the 2015 state of the nation address, as delivered by His Excellency the President, hon J G Zuma.


The ANC welcomes the group of five Bills which, in the course of the current financial year or policy year, will come before the House and the committee. These include the amendment of the Communal Property Associations Act. Chairperson, your colleague, hon Mhlongo, had to run elsewhere, but he spoke about the CPA Act and the loopholes therein. We are saying that a Bill is coming before the committee, and ultimately before the House, to amend any loopholes with respect to that piece of legislation. We will report to the House later, when we will debate the matter further and more fully.


We hope, in the same breath, that communities like the people of the Rama community in Tshwane will ultimately have a resolution to their woes. The ANC is also quite concerned.


We as the ANC applaud the implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, Spluma, as stated in the policy pronouncement of the Minister. According to this, 38 municipalities are to have a structure for the implementation of the Spluma by 1 July 2015. The Spluma is a piece of legislation that provides for the development of principles, norms and standards with respect to spatial planning and land use management for a sustainable land tenure system. We appreciate the allocation of R27 million to this issue.


We would also briefly like to summarise our position in relation to the Office of the Valuer-General, especially to assist the hon Matiase – who has just come to the committee and probably attended less than five meetings – to understand the notion of the Valuer-General better.


Hitherto the land has been bought by the government or the department from private land owners at exorbitant and deliberately inflated prices. The Valuer-General is an office that is being introduced that will make sure that there is no rendering the government a cash cow, no milking the government, by unscrupulous owners of land.


This is in a context which we defined at another time, when there were policy speeches last year, and we said where the land came from. In fact, Mzwakhe Mbuli continues to say, “The land bought, the land never sold”. The land owners cannot tell us that they came with the land in those three ships in 1652. They never came with any land.


The Valuer-General is therefore here to make sure that when land transactions are being done, there is no exorbitance and no milking of the government.


Furthermore, there have also been cries about corruption, cries about corruption, cries about corruption. But indeed, it is the ANC government that has given out toll-free numbers and whistle-blowing numbers for acts of corruption.


But we also call on the bedfellows that we have referred to, to go beyond citing corruption – which we agree with – to citing superexploitation of the poor also as an unacceptable tendency and practice in our society. It cannot be right that people work until the ages of 60 to 70 and, at end of the day, they have nothing, because they have been exploited by the capitalists and imperialists, and their apologists and political spokespersons. [Interjections.] You are safe, because time has run out on me. I will skip all the other points. There will be time for that.


In conclusion, with the clinical execution of this 2015-16 policy and Budget Vote, as contained in the strategic plan and the annual performance plan, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]









The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chairperson, firstly, in regard to MalaMala, there is a great obsession around MalaMala. People think that because those are black people, they do not deserve to get farms or their land back because it is too expensive.



Ngenxa yokuba ingabantu abantsundu ingakumbi umntu ontsundu ozithiyileyo ucinga ukuba umntu ontsundu akafanelekanga ukuba athengelwe into enexabiso eliphezulu. Kaloku aba bantu bakholelwa ekubeni umntu ontsundu makahlale ebumnyameni nasebumdakeni kuba ingamfanelanga imali eninzi. IMalaMala iyabahlupha ngoba oko sithenge laa mhlaba laa nkampani ihlawula aba bantu ama-R700 000 ngenyanga imali yerenti. Zange yenzeka loo nto eMzantsi Afrika loo nto.


Ngoku ke aba bantu bathetha ngabo ngabantu abahlala eRhawutini bafuna ukutya la mali. [Uwelewele.] Nantso ke into eyenzekayo kwaye oonondaba baseMzantsi Afrika bayabancedisa. Bendibabonile bakhutshwe kumabonakude, kodwa baphendulwa ngumntu waphaya. Nonkosi lo ndiyafuna ukumva. Ayikho le nto bayithethayo kaloku bayifunde ephepheni le nto. Aba bantu ngabaphaya, babona imali ngoku bayabuya bayagoduka. [Kwahlekwa.] Nani niyangenelela; niyakhwela kule nqwelo yokutya imali. Hayi ayisoze yenzeke. [Kwaqhwatywa.]


I-EFF, Everything For Free, ithetha ngokufumana zonke izinto simahla, into engekhoyo leyo apha emhlabeni; ayenzeki. Yintsomi leyo nto zakuthi nani niyaziqhatha ngalento kwaye lungisani nje into encinci mntakaMatiase. Nithetha kakuhle; ndiyayithanda ingxoxo yenu intle. Ingxaki yenu yindlela eniyithetha ngayo ayamkeleki. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Nithi senithetha into entle esizweni- Apha bekukho abantwana abancinci besikolo; beze ePalamente, baze kubona eyona nkundla enkulu yesizwe sabo. Xa belapha ngaphakathi bafika babone ootata noomama abanxibe ii-ovarolo ezibomvu noomakarabha abathetha krwada; bethetha into elungileyo ngamanye amaxesha nto kaMatiase. Izinto enizithethayo zintle kodwa indlela enizithetha ngayo imbi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]


Siyambulela utata uFiltane kwi-UDM, simbulela kakhulu. Laa nto kuthiwa yi50/50 ilungisa loo nto kanye. Sithenga iifama kubantu abamhlophe, sibahlawule bahambe kungene omnye aphinde axoze aba bantu banye. Hayi ayilunganga loo nto. Le nto kuthiwa ngu- ...



 ... Strengthening the Relative Rights of People Working the Land, the called 50/50 ...



 ... ifuna ukwenza kanye laa nto ithethwa ngohloniphekileyo. Kutheni lo mntu xa ethengise ifama ahambe nayo yonke imali agoduke; abheke elwandle? Ucinga ntoni ngaba bantu? Sifuna abantu abaneefama babenezazela ngabantu ababasebenzelayo, qha. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Angaxozwa umntu ontsundu ukusukela oko kwaqalwa ehlawulwa umvuzo wakhe kuphinde kuthiwe umntu ontsundu kufuneka ahlawule irhafu yekati neyenja kuba kufunwa ukuba makahambe ayekusebenzela omnye umntu. Hayi khona leyo mayingenzeki ngoku sesiphethe, ngexesha lethu. Ukuba iyanzeka kufuneka ukuba sibe buhlungu izazela zethu zisikhathaze. Unyanisile ohloniphekileyo.


Kukho amalungu angayibambanga le nto, athi ndithetha apha ndithethe phaya oku komvundla. Kaloku umvundla xa ubaleka wenza njalo. Abayivanga bobabini oomama. Mhlawumbi isiNgesi abasivanga; bathetha isiBhulu umthetho wabo. [Kwahlekwa.] Jongani nto zakuthi, ohloniphekileyo uGroenewald nohloniphekileyo uSteyn, mamelani. Ndithi apha kule ntetho yohlahlo-lwabiwo-mali yesebe ngokumalunga no50/50 ingxoxo intle. Ngokumalunga no50/50 intle ingxoxo, bathethile abantu. Uza kuba bona baneziphakamiso abazenzileyo bonke. Sizibekile phaya kwaye abanye basazifaka; siza kuba faka nabo.


Ngoko ke laa nto athi uMongameli ngenyanga yoMdumba ingekagqitywa ingxoxo- Apha akukho nto ethi igqityiwe ingxoxo ngo50/50. Into ithi kukho abantu abangafama, imibutho neziqu abangenayo. Nangoku bakhona abantu abafana naba baseCeres apha eNtshona Koloni, mabaphakamise isandla ngoku bathethe. Baphi ooVan Vuuren? Siye phaya bathi, ama-50 eehekhtare nantsi, asifuni nemali yenu.



All we want from you is water. Just enhance the capacity of our dam. Next one, 90 ha belongs to the workers and 1 063 ...



 ... iyaqhuba ngaphaya. Inikwa abasebenzi bayalima nabaya yi50/50 yilento siyifunayo. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Sifuna abantu abaneefama baxabise abasebenzi.



That is all. That discussion is there; in fact, those farmers are worried that we are too slow on this issue of 50/50. What I am talking about here is ceilings.



Umama uSteyn uthe akazithandi ezi silingi. Abazithandi ngenyaniso beyiDA. Kaloku bona bamele oongxowa. Ukuba thina singangayenzeli abantu aba basivotela oko sakuba ...



 ... we have no moral standing to say we are revolutionaries because ... [Applause.] ...



 ... abantu abavotela thina ayingobantu abanezinto; ngabantu abangenanto. Aba bantu basivotela kuba benethemba lokuba siza kuguqula ubomi babo kwaye kufuneka kube njalo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]



But we are a constitutional democracy, hon Matiase.



Asinakuze siyenze ngola hlobo lokuba sithathe nje kuba kaloku sithi abantu abakhethe ukuba eli lizwe lethu lilawulwe ngoko Mgaqo-siseko. Sakuba asinanyani ukuba ngaba singathi masingene kwaye senze nje. Nani nakuphatha niza kuyiguqula le nto niyithethayo kuba niza kuyazi ukuba ninoxanduva lokulawula ilizwe.


Nenza kakuhle kwaye ndithanda into enye apha kuni yokuba nisebatsha kwaye ningamatsha-ntliziyo. Ifuneka ngqo loo nto ukuguqula isizwe. Siba nexhala xa sibona abantu abasebatsha bemathile. Ayifuneki loo nto yokuba umntu omtsha amathe gqithi. Kufuneka nibe nje. Uyabona nina, nindlongondlongo; [Kwahlekwa.] kufuneka nibe njalo, qha sifuna xa niyibeka le nto yenu ilungileyo niyibeke ithengeke. Intle qha yhooo indlela eniyibeka ngayo, imbi.


I-IFP enkosi kakhulu mhlonipheki siyabulela kakhulu. Uyayazi ukuba kukho ingoma emnandi apha. [Ecula ingoma ethi asikwazi ukuhamba.kweli lizwe lookhokho bethu.] Le ngoma ke iyaqhuba ichaze ukuba kutheni. Ithetha ngesigebenga. Isigebenga ngabantu abathatha umhlaba. [Kwahlekwa.] Abantu abacula le ngoma ngabantu abahluthwe umhlaba kweli lizwe. Sibuyisa wona ngoku. Abakhalayo ngabanawo, abahlekayo ngabangenamhlaba. [Kwahlekwa.] [Wacula uMphathiswa ingoma kwakhona.] Shuu injalo le nto singayo apha, siyaqhuba sibheka phambili kuba kaloku sifuna ukukhulula ilizwe ukuze abantu bakuthi bayeke ukuba ngamahlwempu. [Kwaphela ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.]



The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms L M Maseko): Hon members, just before we adjourn this EPC, I want to go back to hon Madisha. Hon Madisha, what you did here was wrong, disrespectful and degrading to the decorum of this House.


No one, no member in this House, whether he or she is from the opposition or the ruling party, is prevented from meeting with any hon Minister or Deputy Minister, and bringing to him or her their point, or their speech, or their issues that they have gathered from their constituency. They can do that with any hon Minister or Deputy Minister who is here.


The way you did it, the spectacular act that you pulled here, was uncalled for and on that I do not need a response. That then concludes this debate in the Extended Public Committee.


Mr W M MADISHA: But, as you do that, I want to tell you that I shall repeat that for as long as you go on, because you are wrong. For as long as you are wrong, we shall repeat that, and you yourself need to learn. You must learn. [Interjections.]


Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 12:30.



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