Hansard: OA: Debate on Vote No 7 – National Treasury (State Security):

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 05 May 2015


No summary available.


"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Jan 1980,"[Take-1] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][mn].doc



5 MAY 2015













Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 14:00.


The House Chairperson, Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.











The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, before I request the Secretary to read the Order of the Day, I would like to make an announcement.


Hon members will see that on both sides of where I am sitting, there are lecterns with a microphone. Members are encouraged to make use of those. You will recall from previous Extended Public Committee, EPC, meetings in this Chamber, that we do have a problem when there is a lot of movement around if a member speaks from his or her seat. In addition, there is a problem with some of the microphones mounted at the different seats. So, you are encouraged to make use of the lectern on my right or the one on my left.





I further wish to inform members that an agreement was made in the Chief Whips’ Forum that the smaller parties may be allowed to donate time to one another. The speaking time for the smaller parties will not exceed four minutes, and the minutes donated will be from a party not participating in the debate. Arrangements in this regard are to be made prior to the sitting and will be reflected on the speakers’ list. No ad hoc arrangements will be allowed when the EPC is in progress. I thank you.











Debate on Vote No 7 – National Treasury (State Security):

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson of the sitting; the Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, the hon September; hon Ministers here; the Deputy Minister of State Security, Comrade Ellen Molekane, and other Deputy Ministers here; the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Comrade Doris Dlakude; the Chief Whip of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, the hon Skosana; Members of Parliament and of the NCOP; the hon members of our Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; Director-General of the State Security Agency, SSA, Ambassador Kudjoe; the entire leadership of the SSA and its members; the Auditor-General of the Republic of South Africa, Mr Makwetu; the National Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr Nxasana; the outgoing Inspector-General of Intelligence, Adv Radebe; the veterans of the intelligence services; the leadership of the ANC, its leagues, alliance and the Progressive Youth Alliance; representatives of religious formations, business, academia and the think tank; the Mahlobo and Molekane families; distinguished guests; comrades, friends and fellow South Africans, a few days ago, during the celebration of 21 years of freedom and democracy, our President, His Excellency President Zuma, implored us into action, as a nation, to deal with the vestiges of colonialism and apartheid. The brutalities of the past, such as detentions without trial, the disappearances of our people, deaths in detention, the hanging of those opposed to apartheid, imprisonment, exile, massacres, assassinations, forced removals, banishments, the Group Areas Act, and many more laws that made the lives of black people unbearable, are a testimony to the fact that our freedom was never free.


This year, we celebrate 60 years of our Freedom Charter - the people’s collective vision of our future. As a country and her people, we are, indeed, on course to create a truly united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society, as envisioned in our Freedom Charter and our Constitution. However, this ANC-led government is the first to admit that more still needs to be done in the construction of this national, democratic society.


Over the last few weeks, we have witnessed incidents of major concern to the life of our South African society, as a whole. We cannot claim to be truly free when insidious and blatant racism still exists in our society. We cannot claim to be truly free when racism still rears its ugly head in our institutions of higher learning, in the media, in the private and public sectors, in the boardrooms, and with the attacks on foreign nationals that we have observed in some communities in the recent weeks.


As South Africans, we should refuse to be part of unnecessary attacks on innocent people merely because they happen to be foreigners. We know very well that it is incorrect to argue, as some amongst us do, that crime is committed mainly by non-South Africans. Even if we suspect or have evidence that some people are engaged in crime, we should work with the police so that these criminals are arrested. This applies equally to South Africans and non-South Africans, because a criminal is a criminal, irrespective of nationality, and should be made to face the full might of the law. If, indeed, some foreigners are involved in crime, we cannot mete out collective punishment to all foreigners because of the criminal deeds of a few bad individuals.


We are pleased with the able leadership of and the steps that have been taken by His Excellency President Zuma to end the violence and put measures in place for sustainable solutions on matters of migration and the concerns raised by our people. These range from issues of unemployment and poverty to economic opportunities and crime. We also want to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work of the Ministers, premiers, MECs, mayors, Members of Parliament and councillors who worked tirelessly to bring the situation under control.


We commend the members of the intelligence community, working with the law-enforcement agencies, to restore calm. Further, we are heartened by our members’ contribution to Operation Fiela to rid our communities of havens for criminals, as well as the response by our communities in encouraging us to do more.


This year marks 20 years of intelligence work in support of the democratic, constitutional order. There is no better way to celebrate national security achievements than to rededicate ourselves to continuing the good story of the further consolidation of our democracy through the creation of conditions for peace, stability and development. These are necessary to make further improvements to the lives of South Africans, as well as of those in the SADC region and on the rest of our continent. In this regard, the Intelligence structures will continue to support government’s efforts to ensure that the restoration of our people’s dignity is a continuous and sustained process, whilst making sure that government remains based on the will of the people, by the people and for the people.


In consolidating the gains we have made in the last 20 years, government has put in place a programme of action based on the ANC’s 2014 election manifesto and the National Development Plan: Vision for 2030. We shall work in support of the priorities, as outlined by President Zuma during the state of the nation address. This includes the nine-point plan for the radical transformation of the South African economy. The structures of our agency continue to support government objectives, as outlined in Outcome 3: All people in South Africa are and feel safe; and Outcome 11: Creating a better South Africa, and contributing to a better and safer Africa in a better world.


The State Security Agency’s mandate is to secure South Africa’s sovereignty, as a country; our territorial integrity; our own independence; her people; and our critical infrastructure, assets and interests, working together with the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, Cluster. We have been hard at work looking at current security threats that require a deeper understanding of the actors and tactics involved. These we obtained through an in-depth and robust intelligence capability and multivariate analysis.


Nations cannot secure their national sovereignty unless they assess the new emerging threats, accordingly. As an agency, we have deliberately decided to expand the traditional notions of traditional security to address the nontraditional security threats, and develop a comprehensive approach to security. Our priorities have taken into account the rapidly-growing nontraditional security threats, like the struggle for resources, embedded in the pursuit of: energy; security; environmental degradation; forced immigration; international terrorism; and the insurgency and ascendancy of nonstate actors in drug trafficking, the proliferation of arms and ammunition, money laundering, financial crime and the illicit economy. Our major challenge facing us now, as a country, is the question of energy security, to which our government has a clear response in terms of our energy mix.


Illegal immigration has become a serious challenge for our country because of our vast land, maritime and air borders. Effective control and management of South Africa’s border security is critical. A month ago, we visited the Lebombo Port of Entry in Nkomazi, Mpumalanga province, and engaged with a range of stakeholders, including the local community. We have received very positive feedback and input, which will enable us to strengthen our border security.


Plans are already advanced for the establishment of the Border Management Agency, BMA, led by the Department of Home Affairs and supported by all of us in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster. The Port of Cape Town is one of the pilot projects of the Border Management Agency. We are fully active in this project and all indications are that when the BMA becomes operational next year, it will have benefited from the experiences of the various pilots that are currently under way. We are participating fully in the process, including the Interministerial Committee on Migration, which was recently appointed by President Zuma.


The vision of our African Union Agenda 2063 seeks to silence the guns on our own continent. Without peace and stability, development will be compromised. Hence, we support the initiative of heads of state and government to address our capacity to respond to an immediate crisis, the funding of Africa’s solution to Africa’s problems. Let us not forget the issues of the transformation of multinational institutions, like the United Nations Security Council. This year, we celebrate 70 years of the United Nations.


The emergence of foreign militia and the temptation of unconstitutional changes of government with respect to term limits, pose further insecurity on the continent. International terrorism and globalisation have resulted in the softening of borders and, unfortunately, exacerbated security problems to unacceptably dangerous dimensions. International terrorism is gaining momentum and has moved centre stage in the security discourse, necessitating closer co-operation in the global village.


The barbaric killing of innocent students and the scores injured at Garissa University College in Kenya, the beheading of 21 Egyptians by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Isis, and attacks on mosques have become the biggest challenge of all time for nations of this global village. We will continue to work closely with other security agencies in the SADC region through our regional early warning system in the African Union Peace and Security Council; through the Committee of Intelligence and Security Services of Africa; the African Centre for the Study and Research on Terrorism; and the United Nations Security Council, through the Executive Directorate on Counter-Terrorism, as well as on agency-to-agency relations.


Transnational crime networks involving small arms, drug trafficking and money laundering are assuming serious importance. Learning from our own mistakes and working together with other law-enforcement agencies, we shall create a dedicated capacity within the State Security Agency to support the SA Revenue Service, Sars, in combating the illicit economy. Our concerns remain on the growth of the illicit economy and global illicit financial flows that indicate the estimated revenue lost to our continent, annually, is five times more than the amount of aid flowing into the continent, annually. Good progress is being registered in areas like the combating of trade in illicit tobacco and cigarettes. Access to resources is likely to continue the economic conflicts if not skilfully managed.


Working with the SA Police Service and other law-enforcement agencies, we are pleased to report that successful operations have been conducted in dealing with the question on human smuggling. These have resulted in a number of arrests. We also have also worked closely with Sars and the Department of Environmental Affairs in disrupting rhino-poaching operations. Certain individuals have been brought to book.


This year, we shall enhance our economic intelligence capacity to deal with all the nontraditional security threats; partner with Sars to combat the illicit economy; support the development of a comprehensive strategy on the illicit economy; and enhance our counter-terrorism capacity to respond to international terrorism. In addition, our programme to deal decisively with organised crime will continue to receive our undivided attention.


The advent of the electronic web of information sharing, known as cyberspace, has revolutionised the world. It has brought exciting opportunities for developing our economies and improving our health care and education systems, agricultural production, the military, the provision of services, and others. These opportunities are endless.


In the same vein, electronic computing and communication pose some of the most complex challenges the world has ever faced. Utility systems that provide electricity, gas, and water can be crippled by cybersecurity disruptions. Attacks on any of these networks would potentially have disastrous consequences for individuals and for society, as a whole. Challenges range from protecting the confidentiality and integrity of transmitted information and deterring identity theft to preventing the scenario recently dramatised in the Bruce Willis movie, Live Free or Die Hard, in which hackers take down the transportation system, then communications, and finally, the power grid. [Interjections.]


Cybersecurity experts know very well that the perimeter defence approach does not work all the time. All such defences can eventually be penetrated or bypassed. Even without such breaches, systems can be compromised. This includes flooding websites with bogus requests,  causing servers to crash in what is referred to as a denial-of-service attack - or when the bad guys and girls are already inside the perimeter. We need to work hard in terms of research and development to address the long list of cybersecurity priorities.


To achieve the integrity and security of our cyberspace, it must be accompanied by methods of monitoring and quickly detecting any such security compromises - the ability to detect malicious activity and disable attempted intrusions automatically. Part of that process should be new forensics for finding and catching criminals who commit cybercrime or cyberterrorism.


As people, we must recognise that the success of a cybersecurity system depends on an understanding of the safety of the whole system, not merely protecting its individual parts. Consequently, cybercrime and cyberterrorism must be fought on the personal, social and political fronts, as well as on the electronic front.


The growing use of smartphones and other mobile devices to access the internet has seen more consumers increasingly vulnerable to cybercrime as they enter cyberspace with little or no cybersecurity awareness. In recent years, we have seen an enormous increase in the use of social media networks. Social media networks have the power to help people voice their demands and mobilise their forces. We all know the case of the so-called Arab Spring, and how people mobilised themselves or were mobilised to effect a regime change through social media.


Our own experience, as a country, in which a 15-year-old girl was lured into ISIS, is a matter of concern. After my intervention and working with the law-enforcement agencies, we were able to intervene decisively, and a child is safe, in the custody of her parents. [Applause.] It brought home the stark message that parents and the broader society must take a stand and exercise caution when their children are engaging on various platforms provided in cyberspace.


Some hon members may know of the various scams and fraudulent activities undertaken by cybercriminals and syndicates to get to their personal information, including their financial data. Significant strides have been made to enhance the security of the nation’s critical physical infrastructure, as well as the cyberinfrastructure that we have. Cabinet has approved a policy. We are now in the process of finalising a Bill, and also raising awareness.


In this financial year, we shall enhance our institutional cybersecurity capacity, as an agency; finalise the national cybersecurity policy and legislation; present the Cybersecurity Bill before Cabinet and send it out for further consultation; build on the symposium we held with experts on cybersecurity to engage the private sector, and, more importantly, South Africans, to increase their safety and security online; strengthen our co-operation in this space with our SADC, AU and BRICS partners, and all other countries we have relationships with; and prioritise the establishment of the current Electronic Communications Security - Computer Security Incident Response Team, and make it a government system. Securing our cyberspace will ensure that conditions for peace, security and development are enhanced.


Confronting and rooting out corruption remains a central feature of this fifth, ANC-led administration, especially considering the negative impact corruption has on our economy and its potential to erode the authority of the state. Corruption poses a serious and direct threat to our reconstruction and development initiatives, good governance, service delivery and stability, particularly at local level. We will work hard to deal with corruption, both in the Public Service and in the private sector. We are part of the interministerial anticorruption team assigned by the President to put systems and strategies in place. Our vetting strategy is going to be enhanced to deal with those issues that are at the centre of our work.


Prosperity and advancement as a country are intrinsically and inextricably linked to that of our region and continent. We have played a significant role in supporting our government on matters of peace, security and national interest. We will continue to play our part by providing dynamic, reliable and timeous intelligence to advance our national security and interests. The security challenges in various regions of our continent are an indication that there are new and unconventional threats that have necessitated more collaboration within various regions and other multilateral institutions, through the AU, to respond to these challenges.


We are pleased to report that we have made strides in stabilising the administration of our agency. We have now completed the restructuring process, finalised the migration and confirmed the senior management appointments that were idling in the organisation. We have filled some of the critical positions and are concluding other outstanding processes. Furthermore, we have concluded the improvement of organisational efficiency, aligning it to the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Act, and all operational directives have been reviewed and approved by the Ministry.


The process to introduce and review regulations under the three pieces of intelligence legislation is now at an advanced stage. This year, we are reviewing the White Paper that is almost 20 years old. In strengthening our capacity to professionalise the intelligence services, we are concluding these particular issues. Our Deputy Minister is hard at work on the issues of the academy and civilian intelligence.


In conclusion, I wish to pay tribute to the serving men and women of the civilian intelligence structures, our veterans and present leadership, as well as those who are no longer alive today, for their dedicated and selfless contribution to our democracy, the wellbeing of our nation and the stability of our region, as well as that of the continent.


I would also like to take this opportunity to thank His Excellency President Zuma; the ANC leadership and alliance; members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; our families, and especially my wife, for the support provided. [Applause.]


Thank you to all South Africans who have taken up the issue by saying they want to be part of securing our sovereignty and territorial integrity. Our people now understand that national security is everybody’s business.


I humbly submit this Budget Vote for the Department of State Security for your consideration and approval.


The Freedom Charter  dictates:


There shall be Peace and Friendship! ... Let all people who love their people and their country now say, as we say here: These freedoms we will fight for, side by side, throughout our lives, until we have won our liberty.


God bless Africa, her sons and daughters. I thank you. [Applause.]





"Old Assembly Main”, Unrevised Hansard,16 Jan 1980,"[Take-2] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][mn].doc"






Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, members of the intelligence community, and other guests in the gallery, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.

In support of Budget Vote 10, I think it would be appropriate to ask who we are. The answer should be, We are Africans.


We are an African country. We are part of our multinational region. We are an essential part of our continent. Being Africans, we are acutely aware of the wider world, deeply implicated in our past and our present. That wider world carries some of our inheritance. We have learned a great deal from our complex past, and adding continuously to our experience of being African. We are inevitably and intimately implicated in one another.


We have made the rules by which we want ourselves to live. To quote the noble words of our National Development Plan, NDP, we hold the Constitution of our country as the covenant guide to a fair society.. Since 1994, we have changed our laws to obey our Constitution. Now we live it. Justice rules us, because just laws make community possible. The law enables us to live together fulfilling our mutual obligations and responsibilities in the shared public spaces of our mutual affiliation.


Therefore, as the ANC, we support the pronouncements of our leaders when they said that we, as South Africans, do not live on an island. To develop, we must expect that people will migrate throughout the continent. Let us form street committees. Let us form zonal committees and exert our influence on all who live in our communities. Let’s work together to condemn all actions that divert us from our goals.


We welcome the announcement by President Zuma to establish an interministerial committee to respond to the violence against foreign nationals. As the ANC, and here in Parliament, we ask that our ANC-led government urgently look at the National Development Plan and a two-pronged decision on migration. We must look at a qualitative and quantitative research project on migration into the country; and clear policies on how to address the additional burdens that migration places on national resources. Consultation in both areas must include all the various departments and the provinces that border neighbouring countries. These must not be overlooked.


As we advocate for the respect and protection of foreign nationals, we should also emphasise that foreign nationals should recognise that to be protected by the law, they must also first obey it. This is called reciprocity - understanding the relationship between rights and obligations. A business licence imposes obligations of paying tax, collecting VAT on items sold, and registration of businesses.


South Africa should pursue peaceful and co-operative relations with neighbouring states. We keenly await the launch of the Border Management Agency. Our border controls can then be strengthened to improve security and manage immigration effectively whilst we continue to promote regional co-operation and border security.


The ANC believes that national and regional security should not be restricted to military, police and intelligence matters. It also has political, economic, social and environmental dimensions. National security and personal security shall be sought primarily through efforts to meet the social, political, economic and cultural needs of the people.


We reiterate that the national struggle for freedom was the critical overarching vehicle to bring about peace, security and stability to our society. In dealing with issues of crime, the ANC proceeds from the premise that a rising quality of life also means improvement in the safety and security of citizens in their homes, in their environments, where they live, work and engage in extramural activities.


Since the end of the Cold War, there has been an increased shift in focus from security as a military issue to considering security as a broader social matter to include job security, social safety nets, access to water and food security, amongst others. One of the lessons that have been learned over this period is that greater liberalisation tends to open countries up to external threats. The most important of these are cross-border crime, including piracy and counterfeit goods; pressures on natural resources, especially on water, and, as we see, with the rhino, too; the voluntary and involuntary movement of our people; and the spread of communicable diseases.


Two areas in cross-border crime have a significant effect on South Africa and the region. Marine piracy poses a threat to South Africa’s trade; and counterfeit drugs significantly amplify the humanitarian crisis in communicable diseases - especially HIV and Aids and waterborne illness - and human trafficking.


Direct interventions through economic intelligence need to be made in both areas. We welcome the department giving more attention to this area, and a gender dimension must be included, especially in support of women. We require every effort to realise our radical economic objectives, as outlined in the nine-point economic intervention plan. In this regard, as the ANC, we welcome President Zuma’s announcement in the state of the nation address, amongst others, of Operation Phakisa, which aims to grow the ocean economy.


So too, we welcome tougher measures against those involved in cooper cable and cable theft. We remain convinced that our people remain our greatest asset to continue a partnership and contract with government. Therefore, we should mobilise young people for inner city safety to secure safe places and spaces. We should increase community participation in crime prevention and safety initiatives - such as against copper theft, which has crippled many households, businesses and schools.


Security against cybercrime and cyberattacks must become top priority in the country, as state security is compromised through this. Government and the finance sector face huge threats of distribution denials. Economic threats of SIM card swaps affect small businesses. All of us should agree that logon credentials using our dates of birth should be a no-no. We understand that one can’t always remember one’s pin number, but using one’s date of birth should be a no-no. We look forward to relevant legislation and policy framework, in this regard.


As Parliament, we can play a significant role in a joint manner to legislate and to educate our people about these dangers. A joint approach, as Parliament, is to look at the legislation from the Department of Justice, the co-ordination of state security, police prevention, communication industry standards, cyberdefence acts against warfare, and science and education, so that we can get the requisite skills for our development.


Key cyberservices being targeted by criminals are internet banking, e-commerce and of course, the social media. Not even the Off-Line eXpress, OLX, is safe, nowadays. Hon members should ask themselves how it is possible that one can win anything without entering a competition. The youth should play a big role to circumvent what currently is happening to our young people being recruited online to join Isis.


The ANC is committed to a corruption-free society, ethical behaviour across society, and a government that remains accountable to the people. We all agree that corruption is a broad societal problem prevalent in both the public and private sectors, requiring the commitment of all actors in society. We, as the ANC, welcome the signing into law by President Zuma of the Public Administration Management Act, which prohibits public servants from doing business with the state.


In 2016, the people of South Africa will be participating in local government elections. Of course, they will vote for the ANC! No one can deny, however, that, on our road towards the local government elections, our detractors are engaged on a campaign to undermine the authority of the state and impugn the bona fides of our glorious movement and our leaders. In this regard, domestic stability continues to be at risk. However, in such cases, there tends to be an attempt to misrepresent the reaction by the security services as unnecessary and excessive. The intent behind propagating such disingenuous narratives in the public domain is to present our movement as being against our people and nonchalant about their needs and frustrations. Certainly, this is not the case.


The role and function of state security continues to be under scrutiny and criticised. The Constitution enjoins us to state that national security is subject to the authority of Parliament and the national executive. It is obligated by relevant legislation to be proactive, to anticipate, and to have early warnings in total, including the foreign environment. Its primary concerns are threats to the Constitution and the safety of our people.


The citizen who acts in accordance with obligation and responsibility is a mature citizen, a complete political person, the only person who is free, in a positive sense. Call this the civic virtue understanding of the relationship between rights and obligations. Our obligations are paramount. Rights and obligations are each necessary to the other, in the same way that it takes a buyer to have a seller, or a front to have a back.


As the ANC, we will continue to remain true to our values of courage, service, self-sacrifice, human solidarity, integrity, humility and hard work. We will continue to strengthen the bonds of trust and solidarity with our people, where these have been broken, and continue to listen to and effectively communicate with our people. I thank you. [Applause.]



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Mr D J STUBBE: Geagte Voorsitter, Minister, agb lede, amptenare en lede van die publiek, die wese van die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor Intelligensie maak dit feitlik onmoontlik om sinvol te debatteer oor die begroting rakende die SA Nasionale Weermagintelligensie, die SA Polisiediens se tak vir kriminele intelligensie en die Staatsveiligheidsagentskap. Elke entiteit worstel met sy eie soortgelyke probleme, synde ’n tekort aan voldoende finansies.


Met betrekking tot Weermagintelligensie is dit kommerwekkend dat hierdie entiteit vir meer as die afgelope sewe jaar pogings aanwend om uit die middestad van Pretoria na ’n eie hoofkantoor te skuif, sonder enige sukses. As rede word aangevoer dat daar ander dringende prioriteite op die begroting van die Weermag is wat tot gevolg het dat die projek jaarliks laer af op die prioriteitslys geplaas word. Hierdie situasie kan nie langer geduld word nie. Indien daar verwag word dat hierdie entiteit optimaal moet funksioneer, sal die Minister van Verdediging gehoor moet gee aan die onlangse versoek van die gesamentlike staandekomitee om die fondse vir die projek beskikbaar te stel.


Betreffende die Staatsveiligheidsagentskap is daar verskeie aangeleenthede wat dringend aandag moet geniet, ten einde die land verdere verleentheid te spaar soos die talle negatiewe persberigte waar deursigtigheid nie ter sprake is nie. ’n Ander bron van kommer was ook met die onlangse bekendmaking van die sogenaamde “spy cables” [gelekte, geheime dokumente] wat wêreldwyd op televisie uitesaai is.


Die Staatsveiligheidagentskap word gekniehalter deur uitgediende toerusting wat al lankal vervang moes word. Gemelde toerusting het ’n massiewe impak op ’n probleem wat al drie entiteite van staatsveiligheid egter in die gesig staar, naamlik die hantering van kuberveiligheid in Suid-Afrika.


Die toenemende negatiewe kuberaanslae kan ook nie net deur die staat bekamp word nie, aangesien die kundigheid en infrastruktuur in die veld meestal in die privaatsektor geleë is. Derhalwe is dit noodsaaklik dat hierdie aspek die gesamentlike poging van die staat en die privaatsektor, asook alle landsburgers, verg om ons kuberruimte te beveilig.


In ’n onlangse publikasie, “Wie beveilig Suid-Afrika se kuberruimte?”, deur Prof Basie von Solms, Direkteur: Sentrum vir Kubersekerheid aan die Universiteit van Johannesburg, meld hy dat talle van ons aktiwiteite elke dag elektroniese transaksies is wat dus in en via die kuberruimte plaasvind. Hierdie groeiende gebruik van die kuberruimte het egter nie ongesiens by die misdadige sy van die samelewing verby gegaan nie. Die groeiende hoeveelheid inligting wat via die kuberruimte rondgestuur en gestoor word het onskatbare waarde vir die kubermisdadiger. Kubermisdaad neem dus onheilspellend toe, en dit is die rede waarom daar internasionale bekommernis is.


Die vraag is dus waar bevind ons onsself? Is ons enigsins paraat om negatiewe kuberaanslae die hoof te bied? Die antwoord blyk nee te wees. Dit blyk dat ’n voorlopige beleidsdokument met betrekking tot kubersekerheid in Mei 2011 opgestel is waarna die finale beleidstuk in Maart 2012 deur die Kabinet goedgekeur is. Die probleem is egter dat dit nooit beskikbaar gestel is nie. In teorie het ons dus ’n beleid wat opgestel is sonder enige insette deur rolspelers. Dit moet gesien word teen die agtergrond dat die Afrika-unie se Konvensie oor Kubersekerheid dit duidelik stel in artikel 21(1) dat so ’n beleid in samewerking met alle rolspelers opgestel moet word.


Ek wil dit weer herhaal. Die staat het nie die alleenreg om kubersekerheid te verseker nie. Dit kan dus nie in isolasie plaasvind nie, want individue verloor hul elektroniese identiteit, geld en ander sensitiewe data. Die Kabinet se besluit rakende ’n beleid oor kubersekerheid verskaf tans geen leiding hoe om die probleem aan te spreek nie.


Prof von Solms is van mening dat so ’n beleid se hoofdoel uiteraard moet wees om ’n raamwerk te verskaf wat alle partye - die regering, die privaatsektor en die gewone man in die straat - kan laat saamwerk om Suid-Afrika se kuberruimte te beveilig. Die volgende aspekte kan as kern vir so ’n raamwerk dien.

Vestig ’n nasionale bewusmakingsprogram vir kubersekerheid. Stel ’n nasionale moniteringssentrum vir die kuberruimte in werking wat kan dien as ’n vroeë waarskuwingstelsel wat kuberaanvalle kan identifiseer en waarskuwings aan alle gebruikers uitreik. Ontwikkel ’n meganisme waar kuberoortredings gerapporteer kan word. Die regering moet ook ’n nasionale program implementeer om kuberkundiges te ontwikkel en op te lei. Dit is voorts ook noodsaaklik dat, tesame met die implementering van enige nuwe wetgewing, ’n parlementêre kuberoorsigkomitee ingestel word wat alle instansies tot verantwoording kan roep as hul stelsel sekerheidsprobleme ondervind en ontwikkel.


Hierdie is slegs enkele aspekte waaraan dringende aandag geskenk moet word. Kubersekerheid is en bly een van die grootste uitdagings. Talle gebruikers in Suid-Afrika is tans uitgelewer aan kubermisdaad wat daagliks plaasvind. Die regering en die privaatsektor behoort mekaar die hand te reik en aksie te neem vir die beskerming van ons kuberruimte.


Ten slotte is daar steeds uitstaande kwessies wat dringend aandag verg, naamlik die hersiening van die Intelligensie Oorsigwet, Wet 40 van 1994, deur die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor Intelligensie , asook die veelbesproke Witskrif op Intelligensie, waarna u verwys het. Hopelik sal hierdie kwessie voor die volgende begrotingsdebat afgehandel wees. Ek dank u. [Applous.]






Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, distinguished guests, the director-general of the department, Inspector-General of Intelligence, National Director of Public Prosecutions and hon members, the NFP is concerned about the security of our continent, our Southern African region, our country,  and of the citizens of South Africa, in particular.


With what is happening in our neighbouring countries, we have a strong reason to be concerned. We rely on the Department of State Security to give us hope that we, the citizens of this country are, indeed, safe. This can only happen when this department has enough personnel, resources and the necessary expertise to execute all the tasks expected of it.


We must admit that the issue of the recent xenophobic attacks caught us by surprise. It ought not to have been the case. We must have the necessary personnel in order to prevent such things from happening, because this dents the image of our country. However, Minister, we are grateful for what the department has done to try to address the situation. We have seen your commitment in KwaZulu-Natal, in particular, during those marches against xenophobic attacks and the other activities that your department and your staff have taken part in to address those particular issues.


The formation of Boko Haram and other extremist organisations on our continent and throughout the world poses a serious threat to our citizens. The NFP would like to commend the State Security Agency for the outstanding work done to save the life of a South African girl who was on her way to join these extremists. It is performance of this nature that gives hope and pride to our people. This gives them the assurance that they are, indeed, safe in the country of their birth.


We are aware that there might be programmes and strategies that this department would want to implement going forward. These need to be fully supported. The only one way to do so is to support the budget required to execute such duties. It is for this reason that the NFP supports the budget of the Department of State Security for this financial year. I thank you. [Applause.]



"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Jan 1980,"[Take-4] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][mn].doc"






The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson of the session, Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; Minister David Mahlobo; other Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here today; Deputy Chief Whip of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; hon Members of Parliament and the National Council of Provinces; outgoing Inspector-General; irector-General and management of the State Security Agency; intelligence veterans; leadership of the Eli Weinberg ANC Branch in the Greater Johannesburg area; the Mahlobo and Molekane families; ladies and gentlemen; all protocol observed.


South Africa’s democratic state has come of age. We are 21 years old and at the beginning of the third decade of our freedom through accelerated, radical, economic transformation. The ANC-led government has adopted the National Development Plan as a road map towards living in the socioeconomic playing field underpinned by the persistent triple challenge of poverty, unemployment and inequality. The strategic plan and the annual performance plan of the State Security Agency, presented last month to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, are informed and guided by and aligned to the National Development Plan.


In his state of the nation address in February 2015, the President outlined the nine-point plan that identifies medium and long-term priority tasks for government. These are: firstly, restoring the energy challenge; secondly, revitalising agriculture and the agroprocessing value chain; thirdly, advancing beneficiation or adding value to our mineral wealth; fourthly, more effective implementation of a higher impact Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap; fifthly, encouraging private sector investment; sixthly, moderating workplace conflict; seventhly, unlocking the potential of small, medium and micro enterprises; eighthly, state reform and boosting the role of state-owned companies, information and communication technology infrastructure or broadband roll-out, water, sanitation and transport infrastructure; and lastly, Operation Phakisa, aimed at growing the ocean economy and other sectors. The State Security Agency will support these priorities in collaboration with the Justice Crime Prevention and Security cluster to create a conducive environment in the country for the implementation of these priorities without hindrance from any quarter.


On this, the 60th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, we would like to remind ourselves of the 10th clause of the Freedom Charter, which was adopted by the Congress of the People in Kliptown on 26 June 1955:


There shall be peace and friendship! South Africa shall be a fully independent state, which respects the rights and sovereignty of all nations. South Africa shall strive to maintain world peace and the settlement of all international disputes by negotiation - not war. Peace and friendship amongst all our people shall be secured by upholding equal rights, opportunities and status of all.


It further states that:


The right of all peoples of Africa to independence and selfgovernment shall be recognised, and shall be the basis of close co-operation.


His Excellency President Jacob Zuma is the Chairperson of the  SADC, Organ on Politics, Defence and Security. Under his leadership, the SADC Organ led electoral observation missions in Botswana, Mauritius, Zambia, Namibia, Mozambique and Lesotho. The practice of electoral observation missions in our region has enabled Southern Africa to consolidate democracy and to ensure that the citizens play a role in deciding who their rulers may be.


Elections are held based on the SADC Principles and Guidelines Governing Democratic Elections, thus enhancing the transparency and credibility of the election process. In most cases, the outcome of these elections is a lasting and acceptable one.


In the period between May 2014 and March 2015, seven SADC member states held elections and this required the deployment of observer missions, to which the JCPS cluster contributed. To date, there is peace and stability in those countries. This work contributes to the JCPS Outcome 11 of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework of creating a safer Africa in a better world. [Applause.]


Based on the above, the violence that we witnessed in the past few weeks against foreign nationals in this country could not have been in our name, as South Africa, Southern Africa and Africa. We condemn it in the strongest possible terms. The actions of a minority of our population who engaged in these activities are not representative of us and what we stand for. During these incidents, the JCPS cluster took its rightful place in responding to the violence against foreign nationals.


The Ministry undertook a visit to the Lebombo Border Post prior to the outbreaks of violence against foreign nationals, to observe the volumes of the movement of people, goods and vehicles through that port of entry. The SSA is alive to the nature of the challenges facing the Lebombo Border Post, and those matters are being addressed.


The JCPS cluster has finally determined that the solution is for the Department of Home Affairs to establish the Border Management Agency. Work to establish the Border Management Agency is already at an advanced stage and an interdepartmental capacity shall be located in the BMA to ensure the well co-ordinated and efficient management of all our ports of entry. This will go a long way in restoring confidence and trust in our people that our borders are well maintained.


In the past, the nations of the world operated on four domains - land, ocean, sky and space. A fifth domain has been added in the 21st century - cyberspace, which is virtual and borderless. Cyberspace is a domain characterised by the use of electronics to store, modify and exchange data via network systems. The intelligence community has to mitigate the threats that this new domain presents to our country’s national development objectives and, ultimately, its national security. The country’s response to this is our national cybersecurity strategy that has been developed by the JCPS cluster, a vital policy document that defines the country’s engagement in cyberspace.


The year 2015 marks the 20th anniversary of the civilian intelligence services. In a previous address to the House, we identified the need to demystify the role of the State Security Agency in the country and generally instil patriotism amongst our people, particularly the youth as the first line of defence. To this end, we have embarked on an outreach programme to universities and high schools to interest our young people in considering State Security Agency as the career of first choice.


Our programme began at the University of Johannesburg where we engaged with political science students, who showed a remarkable interest in the subject. Recently, we visited Albert Moroka High School, a rural school in Thaba Nchu in the Free State. Today, in our midst, we have two of their top students, namely Ofentse Tsilo, in Grade 12 and Nontyatyambo Shibane, in Grade 11. [Applause.] They are being chaperoned by their principal, Mr Talla Medupe. This is an effort to build a partnership with the school and we hope that we can interest the students in our cadet programme at the Intelligence Academy. [Applause.]


We remain committed to using our veterans as a resource at our academy. A new principal has been appointed and we are on course to implement that programme. We thank the outgoing principal of the academy, Ms Setsubi, for her sterling work during her tenure.


In conclusion, I would like thank the staff in the Ministry, both in my office and in the Office of the Minister for their continued support. I move that the House adopt this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

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Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon executives present, hon members, intelligence family and the department, led by the director-general. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge that we have witnessed unacceptable social behaviour in the country in the past few weeks. We say no to violence. However, I would like to take this opportunity to address South Africans about these which are not getting reported correctly. Before I do that, I would like to refer to two scenarios.


The first took place in 2005, in France. High-immigrant areas were attacked and people were killed but their media never reported the incident as xenophobia. It was reported as riots. Then, in August 2011, in England, a black man, Mr Mark Duggan, was killed by a white policeman. The incident was never reported as being a racist incident. It was reported as riots. What has happened to our South African media? When they report for South Africans, they tend to select information.


Let me tell you a long story about what happened in Jeppestown, Soweto. At a car dealership, 18 cars were burnt out. When the media reported the incident, they never reported that the SA Police Service were there. The SAPS stopped the owner of the shop from organising his home boys to go to the Jeppe hostel to attack the Zulus there. The police intervened, but our media never reported that. Why? Because they are more on the side of perpetuating the violence within our country, not wanting to assist our government to stop the violence. [Applause.] The media expect the government to run around like mad chickens while they add fuel to the fire.


Another incident took place in Alexander, and  the  BBC reported that these incidents relate more to criminal activity. Our own media houses reported it as xenophobia. His Excellency Mr Jacob Zuma said South Africans are not xenophobic, and that is true. South Africans are not xenophobic. [Applause.] We have never been xenophobic. So, we have to acknowledge that.


We are now looking at the other issues. As the ANC-led government, we acknowledge that there is a high rate of unemployment and there is poverty. However, these are microeconomic factors. If you understand economics ... it is not my job that you didn’t go to school and study ...  and the problems of microeconomics, you will know you cannot solve them in 20 years when they took 304 years to create.


Based on that, we all need to pull together and make sure that South Africa, an area which is attractive to investors, is, indeed, safe. Without investors coming to our country to invest, we are still going to have the high unemployment rate. So, based on that, we need to speak positively about our own country, which you will, anyway, if you are a South African and you do not have dual citizenship.


Hon Minister, I think it is important that we also take this opportunity to emphasise that perhaps we do need an economic intelligence unit now. If they say to you that you are duplicating what is being done by monitoring and evaluation, that is not true. Why are we seeing these things? It is because that unit is going to do analysis and research continuously.


As I am left with only one minute, all I am saying is that criminals don’t come from the bush. They come from our own neighbourhood. They come from our own streets. Let us all, as South Africans, go out there and fight the disease so that South Africa becomes safe, and assist this ANC-led government. The ANC supports the Treasury Budget Vote. [Applause.]








Dr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, ... [Interjections.] ... What?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members, the member is at the podium. Let’s give him the opportunity to address the House.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: The UDM supports Budget Vote No 10. The security of a nation demands well-informed citizens, backed up by highly trained security forces, as well as the enforcement of efficient and effective professionalism across the board. This is one area where the government cannot afford to fail and it should not be left to chance, especially when appointing personnel in key state departments.


The internal tension between and within some in the criminal justice system is a threat to the security of the nation. It would appear that our security forces have not escaped the ugly consequences of partisan appointments, thus negatively affecting their morale and productivity. Appointments based on narrow factional loyalty are high risk to the security of the nation, as a whole. Some of the operations conducted in the country, like Marikana and many others, confirm a lack of training and doctrine that is consistent with our Constitution.


Our capacity on counter-intelligence demands urgent and special attention. Daily, we are found wanting when sporadic violence visits our communities, risking the lives of ordinary citizens. Some of these risk our global diplomatic relations and create doubt on would-be investors.


We seem to have lost the confidence of other nations which we have enjoyed since 1994. It is hard to believe that South Africans visiting Britain  are strictly required to have a visa because, all of a sudden, we are viewed as fertile ground for criminal activities. We need to recapture this lost ground, sooner rather than later.


The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, together with the responsible Ministers, should convene urgently to conduct a thorough assessment of whether our security forces are combat ready against any eventuality; and diagnose why it appears to be easy to access a South African document to be used for criminal activities.  The UDM hopes that corruption has not already engulfed the sensitive departments of state, thus risking the lives of the citizens and the nation, at large.



Mhlekazi, siyabulela. Into nje ekufuneka siyizame yile yokuba kule Komiti eHlangeneyo eSisigxina sisebenza kuyo, sizame ukuncedisa la masebe ngokuthi siyivule sibe neendibano zovakaliso-zimvo. Ezo zinto ziza kunceda ukufundisa abantu nangezi zinto ze-cyber spacing yonke loo nto leyo. Ayisayi kusinceda into yokuba sisoloko sivalelene phaya singabonwa ngabantu. Abezoshishino mabeze bafike bathi thaca izimvo zabo, basixelele ubungozi, singaxelelwa nje ngamagosa asinika ulwazi kuphela. Makukhe kuvulwe iingcango ukuze sikwazi ukunicebisa nisiSigqeba ukuba singaya njani phambili kwaye siwukhusele njani uMzantsi Afrika. Enkosi.

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Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek gaan sommer hier staan.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Groenewald, you must first be recognised. You jumped the gun.


Dr P J GROENEWALD: I am sorry.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Groenewald, in your absence, we encouraged members to make use of the podiums on the right and left to prevent a situation where you are disrupted where you sit when members move around, and also when discussions take place around members.



Dr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek is bewus van die reëling maar ek wou die agb Minister mooi in sy oë gekyk het. Ek sal volgens die reëling gaan.


Die HUISVOORSITTER (Mnr C T Frolick): Baie dankie.



Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, I want to tell the hon Minister that I am very worried about him. It is quite clear that he is following in the footsteps of his predecessor. Minister, let me remind you that your predecessor was so unconscious when it came to intelligence that he didn’t even know his own wife was involved in drug trafficking.


Hon Minister, it is quite clear that you and the State Security Agency do not perform your jobs, and we have proof of that. What has happened in South Africa over the last month is totally unacceptable. Actually, it is proof of a lack of intelligence when it comes to the security services. You should apologise to South Africa. However, if you say you did your jobs, then I want to say that you deliberately allowed the situation to escalate to a point where we had looting and criminal activities in South Africa. In that case, you should be criminally charged. So, make your choice. Do you want to apologise or do you want to be charged?


Minister, furthermore, you violated the Constitution of South Africa by allowing the scrambling of cellphone signals during the President’s state of the nation address. I want to repeat that you violated the Constitution. Perhaps I should inform you that cellphone signals do not harm the President. They aren’t radioactive, or anything like that. There was no need for that, yet I have not seen you ever apologising for what you did.



Voorsitter, as ons na misdaad in Suid-Afrika gaan kyk is dit duidelik dat die intelligensiedienste, hetsy van die Polisie, die staatsagentskappe of die Weermag, nie hul werk behoorlik doen nie, want misdaad floreer in Suid-Afrika. Die probleem met die intelligensiedienste is dat hulle so besig is om na die interne faksiegevegte van die ANC te kyk - want hulle moet voorkom dat daar nie ’n paleisrevolusie plaasvind, om die President van sy troon af te haal, nie. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê ...



... hon Minister, start doing your job. Furthermore, you owe the people of South Africa an apology. Don’t think that if people call you a spook that you are invisible. We see you very clearly, but you are doing invisible things and that is the problem. I thank you. [Applause.]








Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, state security flows from the premise that if we guarantee our national Constitution, we secure our state and our people. The proposition we made to ourselves is this. Let us found our state on a Constitution that upholds the rule of law and entrenches the Bill of Rights.


South Africans have rights and responsibilities. Unfortunately, it so happens that those rights, such as the right to protest, demonstrate, and so on, often end in excesses where cars are smashed and shops are damaged. However, these excesses are not rights. They are abuses of rights and criminal acts, and the perpetrators have to be dealt with firmly and arrested. The fact that we arrest them and stop them does not mean that law-abiding citizens may not demonstrate. The task of educating the public as to where their rights start and where they end lies with some of the executive departments.


I do want to say to the Minister and the House that intelligence is one of the most critical instruments of protecting the Constitution and ensuring that law and order is maintained in the country. It cannot be done if intelligence does not deliver reliable intelligence. In the recent period, we were told that there was something called the third force. We were not told who these characters were and whether they have horns or tails. We were not told where ... [Interjections.] No, please! This is a discussion. We were not told where they were to be found, and so on. Then we proceeded ... [Interjections.] ... No, please let me make my point to the House. [Interjections.]


We were told that the armed forces were being deployed to go and stop them, but they were not told what to look for. We, who are loyal and patriotic citizens, wanted to support them but how were we supposed to tell them that the third force they were looking for was here or there? We were not told what they looked like. The whole thing amounted to superstition or guess work. Consequently, citizens sleeping peacefully in hostels, and so on, were harassed while clothed only in their underwear. Honestly, that is a violation of citizens’ rights. We will support this budget, but we want this budget to be used to secure and protect law-abiding citizens - not to harass each and every citizen who happens to be in a hostel.


Then, they had to go into Alexandra. I didn’t know what they were going to look for. There were pictures of a young chap holding an okapi knife, and I thought that anybody who has an okapi in Alexandra had better beware.  The armed forces were coming and they would shoot that person because what else were they going to look for there? They were not told what this third force was about.


Intelligence must be precise; it must be concrete; and it must enable us to maintain law and order. We support this budget but let it be used for its intended purpose. Don’t deploy the armed forces from their barracks without knowing where you are sending them and without them knowing where they are going. I thank you. [Interjections.]



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Mr D D GAMEDE: Hon House Chairperson, firstly, my apologies for defying your order that we must all go and speak from there. Secondly, as the ANC, we support this budget. [Interjections.] I am getting there, don’t worry. Let me add my voice to this Budget debate by stressing that this is the year of the Freedom Charter, which states that there shall be peace and friendship.


For some of us ... I will get to the person who is commenting ... who know what this department does, and others, mostly on my right, who do not know, it is important to mention that the main function of this department is to gather intelligence for the purpose of national security, defence, and combating crime and financial crime, including money laundering and terror financing. It also provides services and products to law-enforcement authorities.


The department collaborates closely with its counterparts in African countries and international organisations as part of the web of nodal points for information exchange on an ongoing basis. In his address to the congress of the People’s Movement for the Liberation of Angola, MPLA, in Luanda, Angola, in 1977, the late president of the ANC, Oliver Tambo said: “We seek to live in peace with our neighbours and the peoples of the world in conditions of equality, mutual respect and equal advantage.”


This is one department that must be properly and sufficiently funded so that it meets its mandate. With technology improving, crime is increasing, hence the new wave of cybercrime.


Just a few days ago, we were talking about the attacks on foreign nationals. The question we must all ask ourselves, as hon members, is, Why do people from most countries in Africa and around the world, come to South Africa? The answer is simple. South Africa is the safest, and a more economically viable country to be in. This is what we must appreciate, as patriotic South Africans. It is ironic, of course, that there is a small minority who feels the opposite. However, as the ANC, we understand that this is part of democracy. If people are honest and accept that we come from a divided past, especially in the intelligence community that was extremely divided, they know that it was only the ANC that was able to heal the past and unite all the people of this country.


We urge everybody, hon members and all the communities, to be patriotic about our country, South Africa, especially when it comes to state security. When the hon Stubbe was speaking, I thought I was at the wrong debate. I asked for a speakers’ list, because he was talking mostly about Cuba in South Africa, in most cases.


There is one hon member who always flips and flies in the House. He was given an opportunity to serve on this committee and he ran - and he is still running. [Laughter.] We will catch up with him; he is still running.


I understand the hon leader of the FF Plus; it looks like the EFF Plus. [Laughter.] He likes to say the same things to different Ministers. He will attend another debate and say the same thing, even to the best performing Minister, like Minister Mahlobo. He will go to other Ministers and say the same thing.


We were listening to the hon Lekota. As he was the Minister of Defence, he knows about these matters. He was asking about the third force, where it is and whether they have horns or eat heads, or whatever. [Laughter.] We couldn’t give him that information. I will plead with the hon Minister to share this information next time.


Before I close let me say this. Because we are in Cape Town, we should really commemorate the massacre of the people of Cape Town 20 years ago, just here, in Athlone. We remember them. We have this freedom because they struggled for us. They struggled, not only for us, but for all the people of South Africa, of the region, of Africa and of the world.


We support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]








Adv H C SCHMIDT: Hon House Chairperson, openness, accountability and transparency are some of the important, if not vital, requirements for substantive democracies to continue functioning. The optimal balance between the requirement for secrecy - in very limited and specific circumstances as measured against principles of democracy - is to be found in the intrinsic application of checks and balances.


In any democratic society, it is understood that details of operational requirements of intelligence-gathering may lead to fears of reprisals and fear of personal harm. This may require a level of secrecy in not making details of the budget and operations publicly known. However, it has to be set off against the requirement that those having access to such information carry the trust of those they are mandated to represent.


Under no circumstances can it be in order for a standing committee of a democratically-elected Parliament to self-impose restrictions on the access of role-players and stakeholders who rely on the ability, professionalism and, more importantly, the integrity of the Inspector-General to perform his or her responsibilities. Nor should they be excluded from the interview process for his or her appointment.


The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence recently decided to hold the shortlisting process of candidates for the position of Inspector-General in public. This is supported. However, the more important interviews of shortlisted candidates were held in secret, behind closed doors. This is highly unfortunate and is not supported. The DA believes that this is contrary to the values enshrined in our Constitution we fought so hard -for, as it disenfranchised members of the public, stakeholders and role-players from observing the impartiality, or otherwise, of candidates interviewed for this important position of trust. It appears - and I use the word advisedly - that no candidate was recommended for appointment by the standing committee, following this flawed interview process. These interviews were held in secret by the ANC-dominated committee, despite the above arguments.


As DA members of the committee, we refused to participate in these secret interviews. Hon Minister, we will not participate in secret interviews of applicants for the position of Inspector-General where the impartiality and fitness for office, or otherwise, of shortlisted applicants are not to be observed by all relevant stakeholders, members of the public and interested parties.


We cannot allow a situation where sensitive information is withheld from the committee but is made available to the Inspector-General under the utmost veil of secrecy. We cannot allow interviews for a position which is entrusted with such important national responsibilities and tasks to be conducted behind closed doors. In short, we want the nation to see who the successful candidate to be appointed will be. After all, he or she is their representative. They should be allowed to form their own opinions as to his or her appropriateness to hold office. In the event therefore, that a further round of interviews is to be held for an appropriate candidate for that position, we will only participate if such interviews are to be held in public.


It is, indeed, ironic that, during the term of the Fourth Parliament, the previous standing committee held interviews with inter alia, the former Inspector-General - who is here today in the gallery - in an open forum, not a closed one. What, should be asked, has happened to deviate from this precedent of interviewing shortlisted candidates in an open forum? Why have the principles of accountability, openness and transparency made way for secrecy and less accountability? These are the questions that members of the ANC-dominated standing committee must explain to this House.


With the opening of Parliament on 12 February 2015, we were astonishingly, and I repeat the word, astonishingly, disgraced, with the international world watching when Parliament - no doubt with the blessing and guidance of the department - blocked cellphone use of communication signals within the parliamentary Chamber. This was at best, unacceptable behaviour. It was compounded by the hon Minister disgracing parliamentary institutions and the department even further by issuing an incredible statement that communication signals were blocked by a device that was required to assist in providing air cover in the event of an air attack on the parliamentary Chamber. With respect, what nonsense! Experts indicated that the alleged device only allowed for the interruption of signals within a certain defined and limited radius, such as the parliamentary precinct - in particular, within the National Assembly.


If we allow these kinds of feeble explanations to be broadcast to informed and intelligent international forums, do we honestly think that the international world will regard South Africa as a safe destination? Does the hon Minister really believe that by allowing a signal-jamming device to be installed in the Chamber for the opening of Parliament, such actions supported the values of the Constitution - in particular, one of its most important principles, freedom of speech? Whatever the contribution by the services to this embarrassing situation, it singularly caused more harm to South Africa’s reputation than many other unfortunate events that have dominated the media headlines recently.


The recent leaking of information pertaining to the services, the so-called spy cables, to the international media is worrying. Hon Minister, we need a firm undertaking from you that sensitive information will not be leaked and that all necessary steps are being implemented to ensure that safeguards are adhered to in a constitutionally-mandated manner.


The leaking of information is normally indicative of an ailing department or service where the normative values of natural justice such as accountability, fairness, merit and justness are not applied fairly and equally to all its members. All three services need to ensure that the root causes giving rise to the recent leaks are addressed, not merely by means of an attempt to determine from whom the damaging leaks emanated. I thank you.



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Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon Minister of State Security, Mr David Mahlobo; hon Deputy Minister of State Security, Ms Molekane; Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here; Members of Parliament, Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, hon Dlakude; hon members; the Director-General of the State Security Agency, Ambassador Kudjoe; the entire State Security Agency leadership; distinguished guests; South Africans; before I get to my speech, I must start by addressing some of the things that emanated from the debate.


Firstly, I want to start with the issue raised by a UDM member on issues of corruption. The ANC is committed to dealing with issues of corruption, as reflected in its manifesto. If it is exposed to the department or to the government, the ANC is ready to deal with  any type of corruption. [Interjections.]


Secondly, let me deal with issues raised by the member of EFF ... FF ... that is, FF or EFF – it is almost the same. To say you are worried about the Minister ... Please, hon member ...



Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek staan op ’n punt van orde: Ek wil net weet, as die agb spreker nie eens die verskil tussen EFF en VF Plus weet nie, hoe kan hy iets sê wat intelligent is? [Tussenwerpsels.] [Gelag.]



Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon member of the FF Plus, don’t be worried about our Minister. Just be worried about your organisation which has always delivered only two people to be part of this Parliament. That’s what you must worry about. [Interjections.]


The State Security ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M R Mdakane): Hon Skosana ...



Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, nee, ons moet darem net feitelik korrek wees. Die agb lid kan nie eens tel nie! Hy weet nie eers ons is vier nie! Wat gaan aan? [Gelag.]



The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M R Mdakane): Alright. Hon Skosana, proceed.


Mr J J SKOSANA: The State Security Agency does its job and we are satisfied with what it does. No one will claim and say here that the State Security Agency does not do its job.


As for the apology that you talk about, I don’t know whether you want the Minister to apologise to you or to your party, but the Minister cannot apologise to any individual. The Minister can talk to the South Africans. When there is time for apologies, the Minister will make an apology to the public because we are representing the public here. As foru saying the Minister must be charged, the Minister cannot be charged by any organisation except the ANC, because the Minister is leading the ANC, and it’s the ANC that can see whether there is a need to charge its members.


Hon members, I should think all of us need to be clear about the jamming of signals. The SA National Editors’ Forum, Sanef, took the matter to court. Judgment was reserved by the High Court of Cape Town. I don’t know what more is needed from the Minister. The Minister also went all out and clarified this matter and apologised to the public for what happened. Do not to say the Minister has not apologised. The Minister did apologise to the public for what happened on that day.


To the hon member of the UDM who said Intelligence does not deliver, Intelligence is delivering services all the time. I wonder where you assessed this delivery of services, because you are not part of this JSCI committee. If you are a member, then you are able to assess whether we are delivering or not. For now, really, what you are making is just an assumption. You are not part of it and you cannot quantify what you said.


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Chair, on a point of order ...


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M R Mdakane): Hon Skosana ...


Dr B H HOLOMISA: Are you not mistaken, saying I am not a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence?


Mr J J SKOSANA: I am not talking to the UDM ...


Dr B H HOLOMISA: You said, “UDM member”.


Mr J J SKOSANA: It’s the FF. I’m talking to the FF. [Interjections.]


Dr B H HOLOMISA: No, you didn’t say so.





Gq B H HOLOMISA: Andinxilanga, ndikuve kakuhle.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M R Mdakane): Hon members, he has corrected himself. Let’s proceed.


Mr J J SKOSANA: Why don’t you talk about the harassment of people at the hostel? I should think when the security cluster does its job it has a method of dealing with issues. No one must specify how the security cluster deals with matters.


The issue of the inspector-general came up from the DA’s side. I want to clarify it for this House. We took a clear resolution as a committee that we are going to conduct the interviews in secret. I don’t know why there’s lamenting about it, today. Some time after we had resolved it, they came back with the mandate of their political party and tried to disrupt the processes of the interviews. However, the majority of organisations that serve on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence agreed that the interviews for the position of Inspector-General must continue. That’s why we proceeded. [Interjections.]


As for the issue of not coming up with a candidate, I should think we have the right, if we don’t see any candidate suitable for any job, to reserve our opinion and say, no, we don’t have a candidate here. I don’t think it is a problem.


Sixty years ago, South Africans from all walks of life gathered at Kliptown, Soweto. There, they unanimously adopted the Freedom Charter through which the people of South Africa declared that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white; and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people.


In 1994, the majority of South Africans, when they voted for their first democratic government, gave the ANC a mandate to rule this country because of their trust and belief in ANC policies. It was the first time all South Africans, irrespective of race and colour, took part in electing their own government. The majority of opinion-makers speculated that our beloved country was going to be in the wrong hands under the leadership of the ANC-led government. However, their speculations were proven wrong. Hence we say that South Africa is a better country now than it was before under the apartheid regime.


The people of South Africa, particularly those who live in Gauteng and other provinces, enjoy a better life under the ANC-led government. They can afford to buy beautiful cars that they could not afford during the apartheid era. This is an indication that the government of the ANC cares for its people. [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: Well-connected people, yes.


Mr J J SKOSANA: During the 2014 national elections, the majority of South Africans again gave the ANC the mandate to govern the country. On 27 April 2015, we celebrated 21 years of freedom. The child that was born on this day in 1994 had, indeed, become a well-balanced and well-nurtured young adult. As the parents of this youngster, we call all to be proud that we have a good story to tell about the development and nurturing of this child despite the many difficulties that we encountered over the past 21 years.


The recent violent attacks directed at foreign nationals have tainted the majority of people who love peace in this country, and should be strongly condemned. We must put our foot down and say no, not in our name.


On the same note, we would like to call upon all leaders to be specific. Political leaders who have seen an opportunity to play politics and manipulate the public’s perception for selfish political gain must refrain from doing so, and serve the country and its people in a loyal manner.


Criminal activities affect all South Africans and those who have made South Africa home, especially the vulnerable groups, such as women, children, older people and people with disabilities. State security, as part of the JCPS Cluster will always continue to do its function.


The challenges with the migration process have contributed to an influx of foreign nationals into our country. We commend the decision that was taken by hon President Zuma through which security at the ports of entry will be intensified.


The challenges at South Africa’s border ports call for the urgent finalisation of the Border Management Agency to strengthen the migration system. An old man, residing in the Nkomasi area lost 36 head of cattle. They were recovered in Mozambique but, a year later, he has not yet received them. Sadly, the old man suffered a stroke. This illustrates how difficult it is for communities residing next to the borders.


The arrest of hard-core criminals wanted for several crimes is a classic example of a winning combination - that of co-operation between the police and communities. After Emmanuel Sithole was stabbed to death, a community member who happens to be a woman followed the perpetrators to their residence and provided the information to the police. We would also like to praise the photographer who took photographs of the incident. These will form part of the evidence in the prosecution.


With these few words, I thank you very much for affording me an opportunity to participate in the debate. [Applause.]








The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson and members, thank you very much for the input, and thanks to all the parties for supporting our Budget Vote.


Amílcar Cabral had this to say:


Tell no lies ... Mask no difficulties ... Claim no easy victories.


Why do I quote him? We had an agreement in the Joint Standing Committee of Intelligence that our partisanship was going to be put aside and that we would focus on matters of national security as everybody’s business. When others are temptated to go back ... When I was shocked by the anger of one member here ... That’s why we say sometimes there are some South Africans who are still part of a violent society.


As for the input that has been made, hon Stubbe, we can tell you what we know with respect to cybersecurity. We came to the committee. We gave you the plans. We can also advise South Africans that, for the first time in our country – because we take this matter seriously – we have engaged with experts in the cybersecurity space. They are all my guests. They are sitting up there.


Tomorrow morning, we are going to have to have a round-table discussion with professors from the University of the Witwatersrand, the University of Johannesburg and the University of Cape Town and the private sector. We have agreed that, working together, we are going to deal with this issue.


To suggest that we are doing nothing could not be further from the truth. The Deputy Minister is working very hard, looking for young people as a pipeline to deal with these issues. Hence, our friends are here from the Free State to do this important work.


On the other issue, we can’t speak about the signal interruption. The matter is before the courts. Very soon, a decision is going to be made. We took responsibility. We are not ashamed about our responsibility to secure the country. We indicated when an error was made in terms of the operation. That was not directed to the media. We said we regret that particular issue.


Perhaps you are trying to make it an issue out of no issue. All over the world, these devices are used, and there are those people who are claiming to be so-called experts in our own field. If you want to be part of this, we can recruit you - unlike the hon Maynier. He is very interested in our issues,which, for a South African is very good. However, we would appreciate it if you can come, so that we can vet you, so that you can join the Joint Committee on Intelligence, so that we can benefit. [Applause.] [Interjections.]


One issue that we must correct is the assumption you are sending that there is no intelligence. It shows that we are very selective in the manner we deal with issues.


As for the matter of xenophobic attack, its genesis was an industrial dispute. We have explained it over and over again. This labour relations matter escalated and become a security matter. When the Ministers at the President’s side dealt with the matter, all our operations were intelligence driven, and we have done well. South Africans do agree. They say they want us to do more. President Zuma has put a very big interministerial committee in place to deal not only with the issue of xenophobia, but also with the underlying issues around the socioeconomic conditions of our people. This is being attended to. We are doing well.


Fortunately, in the matter of bringing in the army, I was the acting Minister of Police. I did sign the letter after consultation with the cluster, the Minister of Defence and the commander-in-chief. That operation is being led by the SA Police Service, supported by all the intelligence services. We are closing the space for criminals. There is not going to be any space in our country where criminals are going to have a free day, whether South African or non-South African.


Citizens, whether in Johannesburg or in the areas of Mayfair,  are saying, Keep up the good work. We have even started receiving information from South Africans telling us that they know the criminals in their own areas. Intelligence members are following up on that.


On the question of international terrorism, we said every country is vulnerable, but we must give credit where it is due. These men and women of the intelligence community who have kept this country safe over the last 20 years have done well. We owe it to them to say thank you. They are celebrating 20 years of selfless service and sacrifice to keep you and me safe.  Without national security, you can do nothing with these rights and responsibilities you enjoy today..


Lastly, we want to thank you again, as Members of Parliament and, more importantly, our committee, for the continued guidance that you have given us. To the leadership of the ANC from Mpumalanga, Free State, the Youth League and everybody that is here, thanks for your continued support and guidance.


We can assure you, our experts and the think tanks that we have invited, and South Africans that, under the administration of President Zuma, we will do our best. We can assure you that you will be able to sleep well, wake up in the morning, and enjoy your rights and freedoms. Thank you. [Applause.]


The Committee rose at 15:48.




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