Hansard: NCOP: Questions to the Deputy President
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 28 Oct 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 28 October 2014 Take: 18
TUESDAY, 28 OCTOBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
___________________________
The Council met at 14:08.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENT
START OF DAY
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PETITION REGARDING ALLEGED FAILURE BY TUMAHOLE LOCAL MUNICIPALITY TO PROVIDE BASIC SERVICES
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I would like to announce that in terms of Rule 233, the Council has received a petition from Ms M Khoase on behalf of the Abazimeli Squatters Association, regarding the alleged failure by the local municipality in Tumahole, Parys, to provide basic services to the community residing at Erf 10012.
BUSINESS OF THE DAY DEDICATED TO ORAL QUESTIONS
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have also been informed by the Whippery that there will be no notices of motion and motions without notice, except for the motions that are on the Order Paper. We now proceed to the first motion that is on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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SUSPENSION OF RULE 247(1) ON TUESDAY, 28 OCTOBER 2014
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson of the Council, I hereby move the draft resolution as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers motions as listed below.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP
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AMENDMENT OF MOTION REGARDING THE DESIGNATION OF MEMBERS TO THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY PARLIAMENTARY FORUM
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson of the Council, I hereby move the draft resolution as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That the Council amends the motion regarding the designation of members to the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum, adopted by the House on 14 October 2014, by replacing Dr Hunadi Euphemia Mateme with Ms Tasneem Motara.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
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AMENDMENT OF MOTION REGARDING THE DESIGNATION OF MEMBERS OF THE PAN-AFRICAN PARLIAMENT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson of the Council, I hereby move the draft resolution as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That the Council amends the motion regarding the designation of members to the Pan-African Parliament adopted by this House on 24 June 2014, by replacing MrZweledinga Pallo Jordan with Mr Charles Nqakula.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
QUESTION 7
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
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Question 7:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members, in relation to the question I have been asked, the South Africa-Nigeria Binational Commission has not yet convened. However, the South African government has, through its high commissioner in Abuja and the consul-general based in Lagos, engaged continuously with the Federal Government of Nigeria and the Lagos State government regarding the recent deaths and injuries of South Africans that were caused by the collapse of the guesthouse of the Synagogue Church Of All Nations in Nigeria.
The Department of International Relations and Co-operation is also currently engaging the High Commissioner of Nigeria to South Africa. DNA sampling is currently being carried out on the mortal remains of the deceased by a private laboratory based in Stellenbosch. Once the South African citizens have been identified, their remains will be repatriated to South Africa by the South African government. Indeed, many of our people await the return of the mortal remains of the South Africans who perished in that accident. The discussions have largely focused on fast-tracking the return of those injured, and the nationals for repatriation.
The South African government is not playing any role in the investigations that are currently going on because this matter falls within legal jurisdiction of Nigeria. A coroner has been appointed to investigate the accident and the inquest, we are told, commenced on 24October 2014. The South African government has, however, indicated its readiness and willingness to assist with the investigation, and can only take part in such investigation if it is invited to do so by the relevant Nigerian authorities. I thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Sepedi:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Re leboge karabo ye Motlatša Mopresidente a re filego yona. Gape re boele re re legatong la badudi ba naga ye.
English:
On behalf of the citizens of South Africa, it’s only normal and natural that when our loved ones pass on, we find closure as quickly as we possibly can. We know the sovereignty of Nigeria, as a country, is to be respected, but at the same time waiting for such a long time is becoming very difficult. Does the Deputy President have an idea, more or less, how many months or weeks, or how long exactly the waiting will continue, so that people who lost their loved ones can find closure?
We know South Africa is not involved during the postmortems etc, but with the open channel between the two governments, I think an indication of some sort might be given. The waiting is becoming unbearable. Can the people out there be given a rough idea: three months, six months, a year, thereabouts?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chief Whip, you have made your point.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson ...
Setswana:
Loso la batho ba ba suleng kwa Nigeria le utlwisa batho ba ba ntsi mo Aforika Borwa botlhoko, ga se fela ba maloko a bona ba ba utlwileng botlhoko, le rona rotlhe re utlwile botlhoko ka seo se diragetseng.
English:
We are all traumatised and troubled, as a nation, and this becomes even more so when you are coming to closure and to terms with the departure of your loved one is delayed for so long. In this regard, the South African government is doing everything it can to make sure that it eases the pain and the heartache of the families and friends of those who are deceased. There is a limit to what we can do because, as I said, this whole process is being handled in accordance with the laws and the jurisdiction of the federal government of Nigeria.
We have to wait for that process to be concluded. Our government and, indeed, our Department of International Relations and Co-operation is keeping itself well informed about what is transpiring and happening in Nigeria in relation to the remains of those who have departed being brought back. I urge all of us to exercise patience, painful as it might be, until this whole process is concluded.
What we can certain of is that the government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria is handling this matter and we are being kept informed. I am therefore not able to give a time and date as to when this will be concluded so that people can have closure. What is certain, however, is that we are well prepared for the return and repatriation of the remains of those who are deceased, and we will handle it with the professionalism, dignity and the compassion that it all requires. When they do return, everybody in South Africa will get to know that they are home, at last. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson hon Deputy President, today, it is exactly six weeks since the tragic story first broke in the South African media, and the mortal remains of those South Africans who perished in the building collapse have yet to be repatriated to South Africa, as we know. This delay is heart wrenching for the families and loved ones of the deceased.
By contrast, it took the Dutch government only six days to repatriate the bodies of the deceased passengers on Malaysian Airline’s Flight MH17. The plane crashed on 17 July in Ukraine, a country currently in political turmoil. By 23 July 2014, the Dutch government had co-operated with the Ukrainian government, negotiated with rebel separatists and managed to return the bodies of their compatriots to the Netherlands a mere six days later.
How can it then be, hon Deputy President, that the South African government is taking weeks to achieve the same outcome with Nigeria - a supposedly friendly country - when the Dutch government did the same in a matter of days under hostile conditions? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I indicated, the South African government is involved in the process of making sure that the mortal remains of those who perished in Nigeria are returned home. Every effort is being made to make sure that they are brought back.
Now, I think we need to be respectful of the laws, processes and customs of all countries around the world. South Africa is not one of those countries that are going to violate the rules and laws of other countries, and in this case, Nigeria.
We are dealing with the Nigerian government on this matter at the highest level. They have their own laws and processes which they have embarked upon, and in terms of embarking on those, they want to be absolutely certain that they comply with their own laws and rules - and we are giving them that opportunity.
The South African government would not be able just to parachute itself into Nigeria and extricate the mortal remains of those who perished. Therefore, we are hoping, as I indicated, that this will be resolved as soon as possible. We are following up every activity that is involved in all this and we are certain that it will be concluded soon. Thank you.
Mnu L B GAEHLER
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Masibulele Sekela Mongameli, nam ndiza kugxwala emswaneni. Ngokwenyani lisiko labantu abamnyama ukuba umntu makangcwatywe.
USIHLALO WEBHUNGA LAMAPHONDO KAZWELONKE: Thethela embhobheni, tata.
English:
Mr L B GAEHLER: The more it is delayed, the more it affects the families. Now, my question is a simple one: Has the Presidency intervened in this matter by talking to the President of Nigeria so that this can be speeded up? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, at the level of the President, discussions have been held on this. The Minister in the Presidency, Minister Jeff Radebe, is involved in that process and this is at quite a high level in our government in terms of handling the matter. That is why the President decided that we should have somebody in the Presidency who can deal with this matter.
All I can assure members is that this matter is being dealt with and, in fact, it is being dealt with on a continuous basis. It is for that reason that Minister Jeff Radebe has held continuous press briefings to inform the South African public, as well as the families, about what the government is doing to ensure that the mortal remains of those who died in that accident are brought back. Indeed, preparations are being made to receive them back home. So, we will want them to be brought home as soon as possible.
Mr W F FABER
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I would like to know if this delay does not perhaps indicate the South African government’s complete lack of influence and goodwill on the African continent.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the South African government continues to enjoy good relations with various countries and indeed many countries, if not, all countries on the African continent. We execute our relationships on a basis of mutual beneficial advancement of our interests, and in doing so, we are acutely aware that we should respect other countries. We should treat them as well as we want to be treated. We should be courteous and cordial to them and this we do hoping and knowing that we will be able to continue enjoying good relations in everything that we do with them.
If you look at our foreign policy, you will find that South Africa is involved in a number of activities on the African continent. This is to advance the whole concept of an African Renaissance and also to advance our own interests. More importantly, it is to ensure that we advance the unity and the development of the African continent, and this we do in total partnership with other countries. Therefore, as we execute this policy approach, we cannot and will not seek to override or undermine any country that we have dealings with.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order: According to Rule 246(3), this question has more than five subsections and actually should have been referred to as a written question and not an oral question, as has been done in previous sessions.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The question before me has four subsections. Hon Deputy President, please proceed to respond to the question. [Laughter.] Order, members!
Question 8:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, regarding Question 8, government has undertaken various studies done on crime, its causes and its effects. However, there has been no study done by government that directly explores the link between crime and social cohesion, though it is common cause that crime has a negative impact on social cohesion. It contributes to mistrust. It also promotes fear and reduces beneficial interaction across the historical boundaries of race, gender and class. At the same time, a lack of social cohesion contributes to high rates of crime. As we know, criminal activity is able to flourish where bonds of social solidarity are weak and a sense of community becomes deficient.
We are therefore called upon both to fight crime and to promote greater social cohesion. If we embrace a sense of mutual obligation and accept responsibility for our actions, then we will have more co-operative communities where people pick up litter like they do in a place like Atteridgeville - which I visited recently - where they successfully embarked on a campaign which they call Topa Pampiri.
Sepedi:
Batho ba Atteridgeville ba topa pampiri ge ba e bona mo mekgotheng ya bona, mo ba dulang gona.
English:
Atteridgeville stands out as a great example for many, many areas where our people live. I hope that, one day, we will all be able to emulate the people of Atteridgeville in terms of cleaning our townships, our towns and the places we live in. We will then also have, in addition to more co-operative communities, people who vote in their municipal elections, people who donate blood or who assist those in greater need.
Hon members, the Interministerial Committee on Alcohol and Substance Abuse has worked on policies, laws and strategies that seek to reduce the supply and demand for alcohol and illicit drugs. Extensive work is also being done to improve the treatment of addiction and other harm-reduction programmes. Drug and alcohol abuse is ultimately a social issue. Government can co-ordinate efforts and provide resources, but this problem will only be addressed if all of us, as South Africans, are actively involved.
In promoting social cohesion in South Africa, we need to overcome the barriers of the past. The past apartheid government sought the physical, economic and social separation of our people in South Africa through laws such as the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act, the Group Areas Act, the Natives Urban Areas Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. Access to public resources and services was, as we all know, determined by race.
Government has created an environment for greater social cohesion through the repeal of all of these terrible laws; the adoption of our new Constitution with the Bill of Rights, in which all are equal before the law; and by redressing the disparities in the provision of public services. Much more needs to be done. There are still great divisions within our society, and we need to work together to overcome these historical divisions.
Under the leadership of Father Smangaliso Mkhatshwa, the Moral Regeneration Movement can count a number of achievements. July has been declared as the Moral Regeneration Movement Month in our country. A Moral Regeneration Movement Charter of Positive Values was formulated and adopted by all parties. It is premised on our Constitution and it is also informed by the spirit of ubuntu. In line with the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, Outcome 14,. this charter is being further popularised.
The Moral Regeneration Movement School Project was launched in 2011. It aims to address issues such as general ill-discipline in our schools ...
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect, Deputy President, on a point of order: I would like to refer you to Rule 247(2). It is not the Deputy President’s fault. Perhaps it’s because of the long question with the four subsections but I would just like to refer you to Rule 247(2), which states that the reply has to be within five minutes. I say this with all due respect, Mr Deputy President.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Michalakis. The question is within the Rules: it has four subsections. That is the first point. The second point is that the hon member also knows the Rules. It does give the presiding officer the discretion. Please finish up your response, Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the Moral Regeneration Project Schools was launched, as I was saying, in 2011. It aims to address issues such as ill-discipline in schools, teenage pregnancies, violence in schools, lack of commitment from teachers, and the absence of ethical leadership in schools.
The Moral Regeneration Movement further states, through its Charter of Election Ethics, which was launched on 25 February 2011, that it would seek to have partnership with the SABC and the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC.
Outcome 3 of the MTSF deals with the reduction of crime. It requires the implementation of strategies by 2018-19 in the following areas: integrated crime prevention and combating; visible policing; public order; community policing; rural safety; intelligence-led policing; and crime detection. Again, these efforts will only be effective if all individuals and organisations in society work together to achieve these objectives. Thank you.
Mr D L XIMBI
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr D L XIMBI: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, I am happy with your answers.
Through you, Chairperson, allow me to pass on our condolences to the family of Senzo Meyiwa and all South Africans on the loss of his life because of the violence and crime that we are talking about today. Our people out there say we are putting forward strategies, but we do not implement them. I am happy that, today, you are talking about what you are doing. I am happy with your strategies, Deputy President.
IsiXhosa:
Ndiqinisekile ukuba nabantu bethu baya yibona intshukumo nangona ifuna ukuba sisebenzisane siyijonge ukuba iyafikelela kuzo zonke iikona zoMzantsi Afrika. Ndiyabulela kakhulu, Sekela Mongameli, masiqhube sincedisane. Enkosi.
USEKELA MONGAMELI: Ndiyabulela, siza kwenza njalo ukuqhubeka nokusebenza yonke le ngxaki yolwaphulo mthetho apha eMzantsi Afrika. Eyona nto ifunekayo yeyokuba sisebenzisane sonke sibambane ngezandla ukuze siwulwe umba wolwaphulo mthetho apha eMzantsi Afrika.
English:
I also want to say, from the government of South Africa - and many statements have been issued in this regard - we also convey our condolences to the family of Senzo Meyiwa, the fans of football and his club, as well. Everybody in our country is saddened by his untimely death. This is a death that should not have happened, and we are deeply, deeply sorry. We have been robbed of a great talent that could have made our nation proud over the next few years. Thank you for raising it. Thank you.
Mnu M KHAWULA
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THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekile, mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli wezwe ...
English:
... hon Deputy President, I want to agree with the sentiments that you have raised in respect of the barriers of the past that need to be breached in respect of responsibility for our actions; in respect of, amongst other things, the divisions in our societies, especially the spirit of ubuntu that we need to promote among our communities.
However, when it comes to matters of social cohesion and moral regeneration, what I want to find out is: How much more is government doing to ensure that what we have seen in the past does not happen? For example, when we have our national days where government money gets spent to bring people together to celebrate South Africa, we have noticed that some of these days are turned into political rallies by some parties, where leaders of other parties sometimes get booed. I don’t think this is in line with the spirit of ubuntu and it does not serve the objective of social cohesion.
Therefore, what I want to find out for the future is: What is government doing, because, even in the future, we do still need to see these activities taking place? We do need to see government promoting social cohesion, but in doing so, there must be no negatives. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga, mhlonishwa.
English:
Government will continue to encourage all South Africans to participate in national events that seek to promote our unity as a nation and our oneness as South Africans, because those events tend to promote social cohesion. We have seen in the past few events that have taken place where government held events throughout the country, nationally and in provinces, how enthusiastically those were welcomed by the ordinary citizens of our country.
Indeed, with regard to participation, we would like those days to be regarded as days in which all South Africans have the freedom, the opportunity and the right to participate, and not to participate on a party political basis. The only basis they should participate on in those events should be because they are South Africans, and they are there to promote our cohesiveness as a nation, our unity as South Africans, and to subscribe to the values that we subscribe to.
One of those key values and principles is tolerance - tolerance of one another. No matter what it is that may be of difference between us, we should be able to tolerate each other and not let any of the differences that we might have, be it gender, race, origin of region, or political party, be a factor that divides us. If, at any of those events, there should be any derisive remarks that are made against anyone, or booing, it behoves the leadership to discourage people from doing so and to preach a message of unity, a message of tolerance of one another, a message of inclusiveness, and a message of appreciation of the diversity that we all should respect and enjoy as South Africans.
Therefore, it is something that we will want to keep promoting so that the fault lines that we might have, as people who are being forged into a cohesive nation, should disappear more and more. Some of those things that you are talking about are, indeed, things we should do and steps that we should take to make sure that we remain united as South Africans - because what unites us is much more important than what divides us. Thank you.
Ms L C DLAMINI
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, angivusele kumhlon, Sekela Mengameli welive. [Let me greet the hon Deputy President of the country.] In 2001, the current government approved the National Crime Prevention Strategy. This deals mainly with the prevention of crime and the root causes of crime, compared to law and order during the apartheid government era.
There are four pillars in that strategy: transnational crime; environmental design; criminal justice; and community values and education. The last pillar suggests that there is a need for community involvement and prevention of crime, because some crimes happen behind doors that the police cannot access. What is your comment on that statement, hon Deputy President?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the National Crime Prevention Strategy remains relevant to this day, particularly the pillar that talks about community involvement. It is important that we strengthen community involvement in relation to fighting crime in our country. Crime can largely be defeated through the involvement of communities, particularly when it comes to various forums that have been set up.
The community policing forums are very important structures that enable our people actively to get involved in measures that are meant to fight crime. In fact, it is a very empowering type of structure. It empowers the community to deal with police officers without any fear and without fearing any intimidation. They are able to deal with them on a co-operative basis where the police officers and members of the community meet in a structure like that, discuss the causes of crime in whatever area, and find strategies and ways of preventing and combating crime.
We place a great deal of emphasis on community involvement in many things, but it becomes even more relevant when we have to deal with combating and fighting crime. So, you couldn’t be more correct in highlighting the issue of combating crime, as you went through the various strategies that have been agreed to in relation to fighting crime. This is very much supported by the government. Thank you.
Ms B S MASANGO
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms B S MASANGO: Hon Chair and hon Deputy President, the recently released 2013-14 crime statistics have shown an increase in the prevalence of murder, attempted murder, aggravated robbery, theft out of motor vehicles and car hijackings. Given the Moral Regeneration Movement’s stated mission of initiating, facilitating and co-ordinating societal networks and programmes to regenerate and preserve our nation’s moral fibre, can it honestly be said that the Moral Regeneration Movement is having any impact in this regard, or should we consider other initiatives which could have a real impact on our society? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I can honestly say that the Moral Regeneration Movement is making a very positive contribution to highlighting what we need to do to move forward with moral regeneration in our nation. It has embarked on a number of programmes and initiatives, some of which even go to the level of schools and young people. These are important efforts to generate high moral values in our society.
This is not going to be an easy process. It is a process that will take time, but it is also a process that we should not abandon. We should activate all our people to be part of a process like this, because we need to do everything and we need to use every strategy to reduce the level and the incidence of crime in our society.
Crime has many causes and, as a result, we need to use as many strategies and initiatives as we possibly can. Moral regeneration is but one that we should use, so I would not say we should abandon it. Is it having an impact? I would say, yes, it is having an impact, just as many other strategies and initiatives that we are using are having an impact.
Therefore, we must use a multipronged approach to combating crime. We cannot rely on just one. Every approach needs to be utilised and, indeed, every South African should become involved in combating crime. It cannot be fought by the police only. It requires all of us using all our structures and institutions to fight and combat crime. Thank you.
QUESTION 9
QUESTION 8
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, the hon Mohapi is standing in for me at a meeting, and that is why he is not in the House. However, his party has made arrangements, so we can proceed to Question 9.
Question 9:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, the increase in the number of service delivery protests and their often violent nature is of serious concern to government. Of particular concern are protests that lead to loss of life, disruption of schooling and the destruction of government buildings and community assets, such as libraries and clinics.
Five provinces – Gauteng, the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, the Western Cape and North-West – account for some 84% of all these protests in 2014. That is a very high number. Protests are thus spread across the country in both more urbanised and less urbanised provinces. It is hard to analyse the nature of protests correctly because many of them are contextual. However, the common denominator in all this is that there is significant dissatisfaction amongst our people in their various communities with both the functioning of municipalities and the way in which they are managed.
To this end, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has undertaken an assessment of municipalities in all nine provinces. This has revealed that just under a third of municipalities are not performing well on a number of fronts and areas, while a further third are at risk.
The back-to-basics program of action that was recently unveiled by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Mr Pravin Gordhan, is intended to get municipalities to serve their communities better and to function a lot better. To get municipalities to serve communities better, government expects municipalities to demonstrate good governance, to be responsive administrations, to have sound financial management, to take action against corruption and substantiate or increase community involvement.
The details of this plan have been communicated to all municipal mayors and senior managers across the country. It has been made clear to the political leadership and officials in all municipalities that government expects no service delivery failures. However, where these occur, government expects services to be restored as soon as possible and on an urgent basis.
The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, together with its provincial counterparts, will closely monitor the implementation of the back-to-basics program of action by municipalities. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, may I first remind you that the person who asked the question has not yet done the follow–up?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, at the beginning of the question, I did indicate that the hon Mohapi is attending a meeting on my behalf. I think Ms Dlamini will fill that space. That is why I went straight on to the supplementary questions, and you are the first.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA: Angithokoze Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngiphinde ngithokoze mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli ...
English:
The hon Deputy President is ascribing more or less 80% of the service delivery protests to local government. Of course, all of us have seen that there is a lot that needs to be attended to in respect of how local government is servicing our people in the country.
My question is in respect of the intergovernmental relations which should be taking place between the local, provincial and national spheres of government. Does the hon Deputy President not think that a lot more can also be done in terms of assisting local governments; and does the failure of local government not also reflect the failure of government in South Africa?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, indeed, a lot can be done to assist local government to deal with the many challenges that they face.
The Minister and Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs did the assessment with a view to determine the extent to which local government in our country faces challenges. In doing this, the Minister and his team had in mind that we, as the national government, need to do much more to give assistance to local government and to be as supportive as possible. To this end, national and provincial government will be working hand in glove with local government to give as much assistance to the two thirds of municipalities that do need assistance and support.
Indeed, the one third that is functioning well will continue to need the support that is required and the monitoring and evaluation, from which they can benefit a great deal. Therefore, all of that, when it happens - as it will happen - is going to lead to the improvement of local government governance and it will consequently lead to the improvement of service delivery.
Could more have been done? Yes, the answer has to be much more should have been done and indeed, we are going to be doing much more. In fact, the one third that is doing well is doing well largely because national government has also keenly supported them. Therefore, national government has not been resting on its laurels and not interacting and interfacing with local government; it has been giving as much assistance as it possibly can.
All of us, through our structures at national, provincial and local government levels, can do much more. Now is not the time to sit back and point fingers and blame each other. Now is the time to get down to work and improve what needs to be improved. It is time to work and the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is doing precisely that. We were very impressed with the report that came out that actually launched the back-to-basics campaign. That is what we are seeking to do. Thank you.
Mr M CHETTY
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr M CHETTY: Hon Chair, hon Deputy President, in 2013 alone, there were 287 service delivery protests across South Africa. Does the hon Deputy President agree with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, that part of the reasons for this is a lack of skills in local government?
For example, of the 278 municipalities in South Africa, 170 have employed chief financial officers, CFOs, who are wholly unqualified to hold these positions, thus further indicating that the deployment of incompetent cadres to senior positions has failed both our communities and service delivery. How serious is government in dealing with this corruption, as it is action, not words, that will eventually have an impact? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the results of the assessment that have been done by the Minister have revealed that there are a number of weaknesses in all municipalities, particularly in the two thirds municipalities of those 278 municipalities we have.
The reasons range from not having proper governance structures, financial management and not having properly trained people in various positions, and many others. All these are being looked at. They are being properly scrutinised. The good thing is that we now have a proper assessment that gives us good information on what needs to done.
Is government serious about addressing all these problems? The answer is, yes, government is serious about addressing the problems and the challenges. Be they of a corruption nature, be they of a skills shortage nature or a skills misfit nature, be they of a weak financial management, we will be addressing all of them.
The Minister, having identified all these weaknesses, is addressing them. The good thing is that he has been moving from municipality to municipality. In fact, you may want to know that he visited many of these municipalities personally with his officials and was able to devote time to discuss all these challenges and problems with many of them. I have no doubt whatsoever that, having done this assessment, we will now be able - through the more or less diagnostic study that we have done - to come up with strategies that will address all these problems that our municipalities face. Thank you.
Dr Y C VAWDA
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chairperson, in South Africa, we have a very huge socioeconomic discrepancy between the rich and the poor. This is contributing, to a large extent, to the general civil unrest that we are seeing increasing all the time in South Africa. This is also contributing to the crime rate in this country.
Now, to redress this issue within the confines of the present socioeconomic systems is going to be very unlikely within the reasonable confines of human patience. This is going to result in increasing unrest and increasing instability in this country.
So, what we are asking is: What plans does the government have to implement necessary legislation that will redress this situation reasonably? We are thinking specifically here of legislation regarding the increase in salaries of the working population, but also legislation regarding the nationalisation of finds and also the expropriation of land. Thank you, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, the last sting of the question is not really related to the question. I am sure, however, that the Deputy President will be within his rights to respond or not respond.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, thank you. I notice that the hon member raised his hand in salute and he gave me a naughty laugh. I thought that he was not quite serious with the last part of his question. So, I will defer to that.
However, in terms of the national legislation, something could be introduced to increase the wages or the income of the population or working people. As you know, the President in his state of the nation address said that we needed to start looking at income inequality in our country against the backdrop of looking at our labour relations, generally. However, he specifically focused on the issue of income inequality. In this regard, he then asked the Deputy President to start a process of social dialogue amongst social partners to look at the issue of the national minimum wage. That is an issue that is currently being addressed.
We are going to be holding an indaba at the Nedlac level where the social partners, business, trade unions and government, as well as communities are going to get together soon - at the beginning of November. There, we will address this issue and to work out a process of how we are going to arrive at strategies and processes that could lead to reducing income inequality. So, in part, we will probably be addressing the type of issue that you are raising. As you correctly say, these are difficult economic times that we live in and which bring a lot of stress and burdens to many working people in our country. So that will, in part, be addressing issues like that. Thank you very much.
Ms L C DLAMINI
|
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, would you agree with me if I say some of the protests are political in nature? If you look at the trend, we have more protests towards the elections, whether local government, national or provincial. There are political parties that are openly saying we are a protest organisation.
In addition, would you also agree with me if I said some protests are because of service delivery that municipalities are providing? Those are communities who feel that they are not catered for, and see development happening in their neighbouring areas, yet, they are still waiting. Those protests, for me, are good because they are saying do it faster, because something is happening.
Siswati:
Kunesisho -ke ngesiSwati lesitsi tinja atiyikhonkhotsi imoto lemile tikhonkhotsa imoto lehambako.Ngiyabonga.
SEKELA MENGAMELI: Nyalo, tinja tikhonkhotsa imoto lehambako, atiyikhonkhotsi imoto lemile. Kunjalo. Tinja natibona imoto ihamba titayilandzela tiyikhonkhotse. Futsi tiyikhonkhotsa kakhulu nayigijima kakhulu ngelitubane lelisetulu. Tinjalo –ke tinja.
English:
Therefore, our people, in seeing that other people are getting ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, is that a point of order?
Mr M KHAWULA: Yes, on a point of order, hon Chairperson: I just want to know from the hon Deputy President, in the case of people and protests, which one is dog and which one is car? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President. Hon Khawula, thank you for the lighter moment. Please proceed, sir. [Laughter.]
IsiZulu:
IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Mhlonishwa, akukacali mine; ngifuna kuyicacisa lentfo kutsi ayikacalwa ngimi leyo. Ngibona kutsi kuncono umbute mhlonishwa kutsi bekasho kutsini yena uma atsi tinja nemoto bekatsi ngukuphi lokutinja ngukuphi lokuyimoto ...[Luhleko] ... kodvwa –ke ngekubona kwami timoto bantfu. [Luhleko.]
English:
Yes, indeed, as our people see development and service delivery happening to other people in other communities - as the President did say in his state of the nation address a while ago - those who feel that they have not received any service delivery or development are the ones who get agitated because they feel that they are being left out. The President did say that ...
IsiZulu:
... sisendleleni, siyeza nakini...
English:
We are also coming with developmental projects and processes to you, as well. So, that clearly has to be the answer. I think in the end what we want to see is speeding up of service delivery so that our people do not lose confidence and patience. However, as we all know, delivery and development is a process that takes time in terms of planning and finding the necessary resources and the necessary skilled people who can execute these. The government is very keenly aware of all that and is putting everything in place to make sure that we do, indeed, deliver and as we deliver, we do it as speedily and as cost-effectively as possible. So, we will continue on this path so that our people can feel that they are not being left out. We will be addressing this in a determined way going forward because everything that is good should happen to the benefit of all our people. Thank you.
QUESTION 10
QUESTION 9
|
Question 10:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, all members of the executive remain committed to fulfilling all parliamentary obligations, including responding to both oral and written parliamentary questions. In my capacity as Leader of Government Business, I will continue, as I do, to ensure government’s legislative programme is dealt with efficiently and effectively, and that Cabinet Ministers fulfil their obligations to Parliament. I thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
|
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, as you know, and will recall, on 19 September, I wrote a letter to you protesting against the absence of the Minister of Social Development, who was in the House on 16 September in the NA, rather than answering her questions here in our House and being available to the members of the NCOP.
Furthermore, on 14 October, the Minister of Women in the Presidency was absent from the oral question session in this House because she had given her written replies to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration to read out, thereby completely frustrating the questions process, and disrespecting the Rules and the members of this House. Will the hon Deputy President please assure this House that, whatever measures he has taken and promises he has made, action will be taken against the Minister of Social Development and the Minister of Women in the Presidency? In addition, is he prepared to report back to us on the progress and actions you’ve implemented? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Van Lingen. Hon Deputy President, before you respond, it is true that when we had question time in the House, the Minister of Social Development had tabled an apology with the NCOP and had reasons, which the House was informed about. She had then indicated that her Deputy Minister would be in the House. The Deputy Minister did not show up in the House. The hon Van Lingen, at the close of that meeting, raised the matter of the Minister.
We have had a meeting, hon Van Lingen, with the respective Minister. We have received an explanation. We have also raised the matter with the leadership that is supposed to deal directly with the Minister, so the matter has not been raised and been allowed to fall between the cracks.
As for the Minister responsible for women, hon members, the Ministers are able to make arrangements with other members of Cabinet to come and respond on their behalf if they cannot be replaced by their Deputies to respond in the House. That is exactly what the hon Shabangu did on that date.
I think the Deputy President can then respond on the other matters that the hon Van Lingen referred to.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson, for giving the background to this. As I said, in the execution of my task as Leader of Government Business, I will continue to ensure that government’s legislative programme is dealt with efficiently and effectively, and that all members of the executive fulfil their obligations. Thank you.
Mr E MAKUE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister ... sorry ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President.
Mr E MAKUE: Deputy President ...
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Don’t worry, it’s the same thing! [Laughter.]
Mr E MAKUE: My apologies, sir.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We’re all Deputies!
Mr E MAKUE: The difference with you, however, is that you, very early in our democracy, played a pivotal role in the Constitution and the parliamentary dispensation that we are presently exercising. Many of us have come to learn that the select committees and also the portfolio committees are very meaningful institutions of this Parliament, through which we can engage, also with the executive, but particularly with the departments.
My question therefore to you would be: When you were busy putting the Constitution together, did you also consider the select committees and portfolio committees to be the fora through which we, as ordinary members of this Parliament, could engage with the members of the executive? Thank you, sir.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the answer is simple. Yes. Thank you, Chairperson. [Laughter.]
Dr Y C VAWDA
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, hon Deputy President, what, in your understanding, is the significance of these oral question sessions; and in entrenching democracy and accountability, what role are these question sessions playing? If they are significant, do you think it is in the best interest of our democracy that the ruling party uses its majority to stifle debate and hide corruption by preventing the Cabinet and the executive from answering tough questions? [Interjections.] This time, I am not saluting or smiling! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, we do not want to stifle any debate, so I’m going to leave the Deputy President to respond.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your second subquestion though, seems to be irrelevant to the principal question.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, yes. Appearing before members in the NCOP and, indeed, in the Assembly, to answer questions is significant. It is an important aspect of our democracy that enables members of the executive not only to impart information on issues that members may well want some answers on, but to be accountable. Our accountability is, indeed, to Parliament and generally, to our people, as a whole. So, our appearance here is significant. It is something that is very important and that we should find time and ways, everything being equal, to exercise.
With regard to the second part of the question, Chairperson, you have ruled that it is irrelevant and I would tend to say your ruling is what I will abide by. Thank you very much.
Ms L L ZWANE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, mine is not a question, as such, rather a comment, that is to say that ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Zwane, you can use a comment to ask a supplementary question but the Rule does not say that members can stand up on the floor and make comments during question time. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Make it a question!
Ms L L ZWANE: Alright, it is going to be a question. [Laughter.]
IsiZulu:
Angithathe ithuba Sihlalo ngibonge kakhulu iPhini likaMongameni wezwe lombuso waseNingizimu Afrika ngomsebenzi omuhle eliwenzayo ukuqikelela ukuthi isigungu seziphathimandla kuhulumeni siyeza la kuMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe ukuzophendula imibuzo. Lokho akusizi nje kuphela ngokuthi isigungu seziphathimandla kuhulumeni sizonikeza izimpendulo ngesikwenzile kepha kuphinde kusize ngokuthi umphakathi ukhanyiseleke ngezinye izinto ongakwazi ukuzibuza ngokwawo kwisigungu seziphathimandla kuhulumeni.
Ngokusho kanjalo ngifisa ukuthi iPhini likaMongameli liwenza kahle umsebenzi walo. Ngingafisa ukwazi-ke kulo iPhini likaMongameli ukuthi ikhona yini inkinga ekutheni uhulumeni ophethe aluqhube njengoba eluqhuba lolu hlelo, kwazise phela abanye kule Ndlu banomuzwa wokuthi lolu hlelo lusetshenziswa umbuso ophethe ukufeza izinjongo zawo? Phini likaMongameli, ngokubuka kwakho, ngabe ikhona yini inkinga ekutheni oNgqongqoshe beze kule Ndlu ukuzonikeza izimpendulo ngabakwenzile? Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.
IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngizophendula ngokuthi: Ayikho inkinga. Ngempela ayikho inkinga ngoba oNgqongqoshe bayazinika ithuba lokuza la ukuzophendula imibuzo ngabakwenzile ukuze bakwazi ukucacisa kahle yonke into ababuzwa yona. Lokhu abakwenzi kuphela kumalungu oMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe, empeleni nje, bakwenzela umphakathi wonke ngoba sinethemba lokuthi umphakathi nawo uyathanda ukuzwa kahle ukuthi ngabe oNgqongqoshe bayawenza yini umsebenzi abajutshwe uMongameli ukuthi bawenze. Okunye, umphakathi uyadinga ukwazi izimpendulo zayo yonke imibuzo ebuzwa la nokuthi iphendulwa kanjani le mibuzo. Ngiyabonga.
English:
So, there is really no problem for members of the executive to come here and answer questions, all things being equal – time, and everything else – as arrangements can be made. Thank you.
QUESTION 11
QUESTION 10
|
Question 11:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, South Africa is committed to the promotion of human rights and democracy in our region, on our continent and across the world. As a country, South Africa respects the sovereignty of all countries and only intervenes under the auspices of multinational institutions like the Southern African Development Community, SADC, the African Union, AU, or, indeed, the United Nations.
In the case of Swaziland, our government does engage the government of the Kingdom of Swaziland on a number of bilateral issues, including issues of political freedom. Bilateral relations between South Africa and Swaziland are cordial and are informed by historical bonds, cultural affinities, economic interests and geographical proximity.
Structured bilateral relations between the two countries are conducted under the framework of the Joint Bilateral Commission of Co-operation, JBCC. This framework, signed in Swaziland on 20 December 2004, seeks to promote political, economic and social co-operation between South Africa and Swaziland. As a consequence, the two countries have, over the years, concluded bilateral agreements and memoranda of understanding to enhance sectoral co-operation between the two countries.
On the area of managing natural resources, including water, our co-operation is underpinned by the Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of Swaziland Memorandum of Understanding of 23 July 2010, on the sharing of water resources between borders shared by the two countries.
With regard to addressing water challenges in the Nkomazi Local Municipality, South Africa and Swaziland established the Joint Water Commission in 1992, for the building of Driekoppies Dam. The dam is also managed by the two countries, with the assistance of the Komati Basin Water Authority, which is a cross-border company formed by the two countries. Part of the water supplied to the Nkomazi Local Municipality comes from the Driekoppies Dam.
Most of the water-related challenges in the municipality are a result of infrastructure that is ageing, thus resulting in the inadequate supply of water to the communities concerned. The municipal water infrastructure grant aims to assist with the refurbishment of this infrastructure to ensure that these challenges are overcome. I thank you.
Mnu L B GAEHLER
|
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Sekela Mongameli, mandibulele. Ndonelisekile yimpendulo yakho, kodwa ke le ngxaki yamanzi kweziyaa dolophu inkulu nangona sisazi ukuba uKumkani waseSwazini unamanzi amaninzi. Kufuneka urhulumente abe ngathi uyakhawuleza kuba abantu abazi kusoloko bexelelwa ukuba konakele okanye kuphele imibhobho. Iziseko zophuhliso [infrastructure] ukuba kukho isicwangciso sokuzilungiswa azimelanga ukuba ziyaphelelwa. Loo nto ithetha ukuba ingxaki ikhona apha kwesi sicwangciso sikarhulumente sokulungisa iziseko zophuhliso.
English:
So, as a government, you need to address it because we cannot always be told that infrastructure is decaying. That is totally out. Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
USEKELA MONGAMELI: Siyabulela. Yinyaniso ukuba banamanzi amaninzi, kodwa kufanele ukuba sisebenzisane nabo kakuhle ukuze le ngxaki isonjululwe ngendlela efanelekileyo.
English:
We are taking steps, having identified the source of the problem, to address this problem to make sure that the infrastructure that is ageing is replaced, refurbished and created anew. We are doing that with a view to addressing the current challenges.
IsiXhosa:
Kuyavakala ukuba kunqwenelwa ukuba lo msebenzi ungathathi ixesha elide. Abantu bangxamile, bafuna ukuba lo msebenzi wenziwe msinyane ugqitywe ukuze abantu bakwazi ukufumana amanzi. Nathi ngumnqweno wethu lowo. Sifuna lo msebenzi ugqitywe kamsinyane ukuze sisombulule zonke ezi ngxaki. Uluntu kudala lulinde ukuba le ngxaki isonjululwe, kwaye siza kwenza njalo. Sivile. Ndiyabulela.
Nkul V E MTILENI
|
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Xitsonga:
Nkul V E MTILENI: Tatana Ramaphosa, Xandla xa Presidente, ndzi lava ku mi vutisa hi Xitsonga. Loko mi nga xi twi ndzi ta tlhela ndzi mi tolokela.
XANDLA XA PRESIDENTE: Ndza xi twa swinene.
Nkul V E MTILENI: Ma xi twa swinene? Inkomu.
XANDLA XA PRESIDENTE: Ndzi xi twa khwatsi.
Nkul V E MTILENI: Laha ndzi lava ku landzelerisa hi mhaka ya ku teka goza ra xinawu (litigation) ku nga timhaka ta mikwetlembetano mayelana na nkavelo wa switirhisiwa, hi ku kongomisa eka timhaka ta mati. Ku na timiliyoni to hlaya leti ti nga lahleka ku fikela sweswi, Xandla xa Presidente, hikokwalaho ka ku va ku fanele ku kokiwa mati ku suka eNandoni ku ya eGiyani. Loko sweswi mi langutisa, xiphiqo lexi nga kona hileswaku kontiraka leyi a yi tirha - hikuva ku tirhile tikontiraka to hundza tinharhu - mitirho liya a ya ha ri ku yeni emahlweni. Kutani loko hi landzelerisa hi kuma leswaku ku na timiliyoni to hlaya leti nga humesiwa. Kutani ndzi lava ku vutisa leswaku hikokwalaho ka ku va vanhu va le Giyani va kuma mati ku suka eNandoni, hofisi ya n’wina yi le ku endleni ka yini hi mhaka leyi. Inkomu.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, the question has to do with litigation matters on water and not specifically on the provision thereof and does not arise from the responses that the Deputy President has put. Deputy President, you speak Xitsonga more fluently than I do. Yes, but I am going to leave it to you. It is a new question and I would have appreciated it had the hon Mtileni put that question to the Deputy President as a new question because it deals with a completely different aspect of water provision. However, I am leaving it to the Deputy President to use his discretion to respond to it.
Xitsonga:
XANDLA XA PRESIDENTE: Ndzi khensile. Eka nkarhi wa sweswi a hi ri karhi hi bula hi leyi ya le Nkomazi, kutani leyi ya le Nandoni, eLimpopo leswaku ku va na mati eGiyani hi xin’wana xivutiso. A ndzi swi tivi hi ntalo kutani a ndzi ringeti sweswi leswaku ndzi hlamula hikuva ndzi kale ndzi swi twa kutani ndzi kombela leswaku va ndzi hlamusela kahle leswaku ku humelela yini hi mati lawa ya faneleke ku suka eNandoni ku ya eGiyani ni leswaku kontiraka ya kona yi fike kwihi. Timhaka ta ku lahleka ka mamiliyoni a ndzi nga swi tivi, hi swona swi nga endlaka leswaku hi swi langutisisa kahle. A ndzi ta kombela leswaku kumbexana mi hi nyika nkarhi leswaku hi swi langutisisa kahle kutani hi ta mi rhumela nhlamulo ya kona hinkwayo loko mi yi lava. Ndzi kombela leswaku hi endla tano. Inkomu.
Mr J J LONDT
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Mr J J LONDT: Chairperson, following the hon Deputy President’s response to the first part of the question, specific reference to the part of ensuring that democracy prevails and that the democratic wishes of voters are respected, and that there should be political tolerance amongst political formations: Does the hon Deputy President agree that the will of the majority of voters, whether in another country, our own country, our provinces, municipalities and even wards, must be respected, whether or not change happens by the choice of the voters and whether this change happens to national, provincial, local government or by-election?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the question is a fairly straightforward one. It relates to how democracy should be exercised at national, provincial and local government levels and I believe that, as democrats, we all subscribe to those principles. Indeed, we all want those principles to be exercised, particularly in relation to and in accordance with the laws of the land, and the Constitution. They should all be to advance the rule of law. So, the answer to that has to be yes in that context. Thank you.
QUESTION 12
QUESTION 11
|
Question 12:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, tax evasion, base erosion and price fixing, as contemplated, are three different concepts, but they have the same consequence: reduction, deferment or elimination of a tax liability. Government, through National Treasury, the SA Reserve Bank, Sarb, and the SA Revenue Service, Sars, works continuously to ensure that the South African tax base is protected. Over the past year, National Treasury introduced several proposals to counter base erosion across a multitude of tax types. As part of their routine activities, Sars and the South African Reserve Bank continually assess taxpayers and significant financial transactions to ensure compliance with their relevant laws.
The Reserve Bank and Sars work closely together to monitor capital flow movements. Ongoing interaction between the two institutions means that attempts by noncompliant taxpayers to move capital offshore are reduced. The SA Revenue Service, as the administrator of tax and customs laws, works towards driving compliance through intense audit activity. In working around the audit capacity constraints, Sars has adopted a risk-based targeted approach to auditing large corporations.
On transfer pricing, specifically, the tax laws currently provide for rules to adjust the taxable income of a taxpayer where the commissioner is satisfied that a transaction between connected parties was not done on an arm’s length basis.
At a more strategic level, National Treasury and Sars are also working closely with the Davis Commission to ensure a thorough review of the current tax policy and legislative framework. With respect to the said company, section 69 of Chapter 6 of the Tax Administration Act, 2011, provides for the confidentiality of taxpayer information held by Sars and prohibits the disclosure of taxpayer information by Sars except in narrowly defined cases. These cases include disclosure to the SA Police Service and the National Prosecuting Authority, related to tax offences, by order of a High Court or with the written consent of the taxpayer concerned.
I have been informed by the Minister for Economic Development that, according to the records of the Competition Commission, which falls under his purview, there has not been a price-fixing matter involving the said company. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, do you want to ask a supplementary question?
Ms L MATHYS: The hon Mtileni will be asking our follow-up question.
Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Deputy President, this time ...
Xitsonga:
... ndzi ta mi vutisa hi xilungu leswaku mi ta kota ku hlamula kahle.
XANDLA XA PRESIDENTE: Swi lulamile.
English:
Mr V E MTILENI: In your response to our question in August, you said:
Tax evasion is not only a crime against the state; it is also a crime against the people of our country - ordinary people. Multinational corporations minimise their corporate tax bills by shifting profits to low tax operations where there is little or no genuine activity.
Mr Deputy President, in the same response you gave, you also said that there is no need for intervention because we have institutions equal to the challenge. However, you were only too quick to intervene in the Marikana issue. If that is not hypocritical, then we do know what hypocrisy is.
Mr Deputy President, my question to you is: How do you then explain to South Africa that you benefited from this criminal practice against the people of South Africa through your involvement with Lonmin?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni ...
Mr V E MTILENI: I say this ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, you are pushing us to the limit. You have deviated from the question. The question has to do with tax evasion and that has been responded to. You were supposed to ask a supplementary question, but you have gravitated towards the personal. Not only that, you also reflect on the person of the hon member and that is not allowed.
Mr V E MTILENI: Let me perhaps answer you. We all know that Mr Deputy President is part of Lonmin. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am speaking about an hon member who is appearing and answering questions as a member of the executive of this government, and not as a private person out there.
Mr V E MTILENI: How do you do that, since he is attached to that one? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member! Hon member Mtileni, please take your seat.
Mr V E MTILENI: Perhaps if you were to ask him, he might answer the question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, please take your seat.
Xitsonga:
Mr V E MTILENI: ... hikuva a ndzi nga si heta ku vutisa.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, please take your seat. Hon Mtileni, I am instructing you to take your seat! [Interjections.] Hon members, is there any other supplementary question?
Mr R J TAU
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, in the Deputy President’s response to Question 10(c), he said that the information that he was provided with by the Minister of Economic Development confirms that the details which have been furnished, with regard to the said company, are not true. The immediate question that comes to mind is – and I get a sense that I want to test it with the Deputy President – whether Parliament has been misled with the information that has been provided by the said member who asked this question, knowing very well that it is not true that this company has been investigated to that extent. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Tau wants to test ...
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I said, I have been informed by the Minister of Economic Development that, according to their records, particularly the records of the Competition Commission, which falls under his purview, of many activities, there hasn’t been a price-fixing matter involving the said company. That is the information that I have been provided with, and with the greatest respect, that is the extent of my knowledge on this matter. Thank you.
Mr J W W JULIUS
|
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, private and public sector corruption has a direct effect on the poorest people in our country. It also contributes to unemployment, especially of the youth in our country. Could the Deputy President, respectfully, please explain to this House how one corrupt body can hold another corrupt body to account? Wouldn’t it just create more corruption? I just need that answer. Thank you, Chair. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order members!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, if the hon member, in putting that question across had provided some context, a little more detail and information, one would have been in a much better position to answer. However, if one asks if one corrupt body has to determine the corruption of another body, I simply do not know what he is talking about. Therefore, with the greatest respect, I am not able to give any form of elucidation to the hon member on this question. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, that concludes the responses to Question 12. Hon Deputy President, I want to thank you for coming to answer questions in this House. Thank you very much, sir. [Applause.]
The Council adjourned at 15:49.
/Robyn/
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