Hansard: NA: Questions for Oral Reply: Cluster 5: Economics
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 29 Oct 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 29 October 2014 Take: 25
WEDNESDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:00.
House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
QUESTIONS
START OF DAY
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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
(Economic Cluster)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon members, the only item on the Order Paper is Questions to the Ministers in the Economic Cluster. Members may press the “to talk” button on their desks if they wish to ask a supplementary question.
Question 238:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon House Chair, hon members will know that the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa, continues to issue licences under the Electronic Communications Act, which is administered by the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services.
In relation to the alleged delays in issuing the subscription television licences, we would like to inform the hon member that none of the five new subscription-based television applicants that were conditionally approved by Icasa in April 2014 fully met all the licensing requirements as set out in the invitation to apply.
The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa then gave these licensees three months to comply with the invitation to apply and with the Electronic Communications Act. It was hoped that if the applicants met the requirements of the invitation to apply, the licences would be issued thereafter.
The five licensees - Siyaya TV, Kagiso TV, Close-T, TV4U and Mindset TV - did not meet the conditions, which include, among others, the confirmation of equity ownership, particularly the black economic empowerment ... [Interjections.]
Mr I OLLIS: [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: You must listen! They did not meet the funding requirements that were required in the invitation to apply and some of them did not have any local content production, as was required by the invitation to apply. The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa is now looking at new submissions with the aim of finalising this matter - after receiving this additional information - so that those who have met the conditions will be issued the licences. Thank you very much.
Mrs M R SHINN
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES:
Mrs M R SHINN: Minister, of the five who applied, only one has asked for an extension of the deadline and that was because there was a legal conflict of interest. So far it has taken Icasa two-and-a-half years to process five applications. In 2007, it took 18 months to process 20 applications, which lead industry players to speculate that something sinister was afoot - so much so that in February, the National African Federated Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Nafcoc, wrote to Gwede Mantashe, requesting a meeting to air their concerns regarding Icasa when it did not bend to the ANC’s will.
They wanted to alert the ANC to the fact that some employees in this communications department were seemingly working closely with Icasa officials and the councillor who is tipped to become the chairperson next year. They got no response, which aggravated their suspicions that something corrupt was going on. It has taken a threat of court action by one of the applicants to get some movement on the issue of his licence. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that Icasa operates independently and swiftly so that the aggrieved applicants did not have to run to Luthuli House or the courts?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Chairperson, as I have said, it is not Icasa that is causing the current delays. It is the applicants themselves who are not meeting the requirements as set out in the invitation to apply. So, it is not correct that - because Icasa wanted to facilitate the issuing of these licences they then conditionally approve the licensing part not issue them until they get this additional information.
This thing of something sinister going on in the ANC does not come into play. What is sinister is that the hon member goes and dines with all these people. Instead of them complying with the requirements, they spend time wining and dining him. The problem is that it would be very wrong for this House to start casting aspersions on the councillors of Icasa for doing their work. It would be equally wrong for the DA to start speculating about political interference - something that we investigated and found not to be there.
As far as we are concerned, the Icasa subcommittee met just last week. They are busy considering this information with the aim of taking this into full council so that the decision can be made. However, I would like to point out that those who do not want any BEE – I fully support the decisions. Yes, and those who do not want local content as prescribed in the invitation to apply – I will support Icasa’s decision with regard to that. Thank you.
Ms J D KILLIAN
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Ms J D KILLIAN: Chairperson, I just wanted to hear from the Minister regarding what appears to be the problematic development of business plans to ensure the sustainability of these TV stations. We should not forget that OnDigital Media was placed under business administration three years after they were awarded a TV licence in 2007.
It is clearly not simple to run additional broadcasting services in South Africa. In order to break the monopoly of DStv – Multichoice - would the Minister not consider engaging in discussion with some of the other Ministers in the Economics Cluster to ensure that additional support for the development of sustainable business plans could be created? This would enable other broadcast wannabe’s to come to the market and to meet the requirements and the conditions set out in the licence agreements with Icasa. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Yes, as a department we would consider that, if they require our assistance in developing business plans. What is critical here –I have already mentioned some of the important aspects of the funding requirements – and what we do not want is to issue a licence and then find a person selling it to get some foreign funders or equity partners.
What we also do not want, as we do these processes, is to forget about our transformation agenda. Of course, we have no problem to try and assist those who have problems in developing a proper business plan. In addition, this government, as has been said before, is committed to ensuring that the capacity of the regulator, Icasa, is increased so that they would be able to process these things expeditiously. Thank you very much.
Mr D L TWALA
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr D L TWALA: Hon Minister, with the proliferation of these new proposed television broadcasters, do you not think our people are oversubscribed already? If we consider the quality of service they have been receiving, it would perhaps be helpful of you to take us through the elements that would make these new entrants into the industry different from what we have – just the highlights of that. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon member, the market is not oversubscribed. There is one supplier of a subscription service, as has been mentioned by hon members. As government it is our view that we must increase competition, even in the subscription segment of our television service. The real challenge, as you have said and, yes, as I have said, is that we have to break the monopoly. All of us are committed to that.
As you know, the mergers that would make these things work, as we move to digital migration, is the issue of local content. It is important; it is not a trivial matter. That is what we know: South Africans are hungry for local content. Even if you check the current television programming, what is popular is local content, more so than the foreign productions flooding our market. That is what will make them find a niche - if they start broadcasting programmes that mean something to you as a South African, in your language, in your region – reflecting your regional context. In my view that is what will make them successful – because the market is there; the hunger is there. People want something other than just the same content that is always being pushed through the television media. Thank you.
Mr D W MACPHERSON
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon Minister, applications to Icasa for free-to-air TV broadcasting licences closed this week. This, along with the much-delayed process for aspirant subscription-based TV broadcasters, is part of the government’s obligation, and of the Electronic Communications Act, to promote competition, encourage a diversity of media voices and offer a viable operating environment for new entrants to the market.
South Africa’s TV landscape is dominated by two players, Multichoice in the subscription arena, as you know, and SABC in the free-to-air space. Their business relationship is one of collusion to keep out other players and e.tv is currently under pressure to promote the ANC government’s propaganda. What is your department and Icasa doing to ensure that the broadcasting landscape is structured so that broadcasting entrepreneurs have a fair chance to test their services in the market and to give South Africans diversity of voices? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: The question was primarily about subscription television, not the free-to-air service. However, I think we have answered the question by saying that we do want competition in all the segments, both in free-to-air and in subscription television. I am not aware of e.tv being pushed ... [Interjections.]
Mr C MACKENZIE: [Inaudible]
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: No, listen, it is very important. The hon member is aware that in terms of the Broadcasting Act and the Electronic Communications Act there is no television channel that will propagate the agenda of a political party. That is a criminal activity. If you have that information, please bring it to the attention of the police, instead of coming here with cheap political rhetoric which you know is not true. [Interjections.] You know it is not true but you are deliberately putting it in this House. [Interjections.]
As far as we are concerned, we want new entrants. We want diversity in these segments as a matter of policy. As I have already said, as we move to the digital environment, we hope that more channels will come in and more broadcasters will have the spectrum to enter this market. Thank you.
QUESTION 250:
QUESTION 238
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Question 250:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon members, Question 250 was asked by the hon Shivambu to the Minister of Trade and Industry. I have been informed that the Deputy Minister of Economic Development will be answering the question on behalf of the Minister. I have also been informed that the hon Litchfield-Tshabalala will take charge of the supplementary question on behalf of the hon Shivambu. Is that correct?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Chair, I think it was agreed at the Chief Whips’ Forum meeting today that the Minister will answer the Questions next week when we deal with the Governance Cluster and that 30 additional minutes will be allocated for him to answer in person. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I wish to make the following ruling: Questions for Oral Reply may only be deferred to another Question session in two instances: firstly, when the Speaker, at the request of the member in whose name the Question stands and after consultation with the Leader of Government Business, directs the question to be deferred to the next Question session in terms of Rule 109(3) and, secondly, when the Minister to whom the Question for Oral Reply is addressed so requests. The Question may then be placed on the Question Paper for reply on the next Question Day when the relevant Minister is scheduled to reply to Questions.
For this reason, a decision to defer a Question for Oral Reply to another Question session is therefore not a decision that is to be taken by the Chief Whips’ Forum, but rather one that is to be taken by the Speaker of the National Assembly.
We wish to proceed in the following manner now that there is clarity on where the decision-making lies. We have not received a request based on what the hon member is referring to – the discussions that had taken place in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We will take it on good faith that that is indeed the decision or discussion that took place in the Chief Whips’ Forum, hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
We will then deal with this matter outside of this plenary session, and we will report back to the Programming Committee tomorrow morning as to how this specific Question will be dealt with. I will now go to the next Question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, may I address you? I directed correspondence to the Speaker yesterday for a Question by the hon Hill-Lewis, making a request and following the procedure laid out in the Rules. Given the confusion that now exists, may I have confirmation from you that that has been acceded to because that was the discussion that took place in the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is a different matter. It is not the same matter. That Question is not currently before us, but allow us the opportunity to interact on the matter and we will deal with it in the Programming Committee meeting tomorrow morning.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, House Chairperson, but it is very material to today’s proceedings because it is about the preparation for Questions for Oral Reply. So, when an impression is created in the Chief Whips’ Forum in the morning, it is very difficult to come to the House then and deny the fact that that interaction had taken place because there is a preparation period for follow-ups, etc.
Now, I addressed correspondence to the Speaker on an urgent basis yesterday. My understanding, and the impression that was created this morning in the Chief Whips’ Forum, was that, in fact, that request had been acceded to. If not, then it is very important that that Question actually comes onto the Order Paper today.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, hon member, let me clarify the situation regarding your urgent letter to the Speaker yesterday afternoon. We certainly were not informed of that and, as I said, the Chief Whips’ Forum is a consultative forum between the various political parties. It is not a forum that can take binding decisions on a sitting of the House. That is why you have a Speaker of the National Assembly to deal with matters like that. You must allow us the opportunity to interact with the Speaker so that we can report back to you at our earliest convenience when we have a response in that regard. I can assure you that we will take it up immediately after this Question session. But let’s allow this Question session to proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, House Chair, I need to place on record that my letter to the Speaker was in fact referred to at the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning. So, it was very clear that that information had in fact been relayed. Otherwise, if he had not been furnished with it, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party would have been unaware of the request.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon Chief Whip, do you wish to add to this?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I agree that we discussed the matter in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We also agreed that, on the basis of that agreement, the matter was going to be deferred, but the premise on which we did so was the fact that there was nobody available to answer the Questions. It turns out today – now - that the Deputy Minister is here. So, the basis on which we agreed to that arrangement falls away because the Deputy Minister is here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon Chief Whips, I want to proceed with this Question session. I have established and I have repeated what was said before about the Chief Whips’ Forum and the consultative nature thereof. Whatever is discussed there and the Chief Whips reach common positions on must be communicated to the Speaker when it pertains to issues affecting the House. [Interjections.] Is there another matter now, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, there is another matter, House Chairperson. We have a Whippery in this House to ensure the smooth running of this House. Now, when agreements and undertakings are made in good faith in that forum, but they are reneged upon when we arrive at the House, then it creates a very bad working environment for Parliament. If this is how the ANC wants to run this House, that is fine. We will be ready for them.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, we run the House according to the established Rules, and I really want to get on with this matter now.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, if I may just also inform you of something. I understand that the Chief Whips’ Forum is a consultative body. We - all the parties today - were informed that both the Minister and Deputy Minister would not be in the House to answer Questions. We were informed of that today. Now the situation has changed. As hon Steenhuisen has said, we have not prepared for these Questions because of the undertaking taken in the Chief Whips’ Forum that these Questions would be deferred to next week Wednesday.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, I have just stated what the Rule is. You must give us the opportunity to interact with the correspondence and the nature of discussions that took place in the Chief Whips’ Forum. The Speaker is not a member of the Chief Whips’ Forum, and we will interact with that, and then we will report back at the appropriate forum. Let us go to Question 265. [Interjections.] Hon Singh, are you also rising on this matter?
Mr N SINGH: Chair, while I respect your ruling, are we saying that there will then be no answer to Question 250 today? I do not think the Deputy Minister will be in a position to take any follow-up questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, if you have followed the discussions now, you would know that we are now on Question 265, which has been asked by the hon Magadzi to the Minister of Transport. I have been informed that the Deputy Minister will be answering Questions on behalf of the Minister. The hon Deputy Minister, please proceed.
QUESTION 265
QUESTION 250
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Question 265:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I think I must indicate that the Minister of Transport wanted to be in the House. She actually cancelled her trip to Mauritius so that she could be in the House. [Interjections.] Yes, it was a work-related trip but she has been booked off sick and the doctor said she is on strict bed rest. [Interjections.] That is the doctor’s prescription. I think I must say, here in the House, she wanted to be here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: So, she is at home; she is booked off sick; she is on strict bed rest. Chairperson, in answer to the question, firstly, the panel that is reviewing the Gauteng Freeway Improvement System, GFip, is actually that of the premier of Gauteng. He established it, and, indeed, it will report to the premier. The Department of Transport, together with the SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, will go and make a presentation to the panel to correct whatever distortion might actually be there. We are, indeed, willing to do that, but we will wait for the process to come to an end, and only then will we know what the outcome of the process will be. For now, we cannot pre-empt. I thank you.
Ms D P MAGADZI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
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Ms D P MAGADZI: House Chair, hon Minister, in view of the fact that the implementation of GFip is problematic, what will inform any similar proposals to be undertaken in any other part of the country? How will we be able to make sure that there are proper mechanisms to deal with the roads of the country? Are there any other programmes that exist, in terms of funding or the development and maintenance of infrastructure? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, the tolling of roads in South Africa started in 1983. It is one form of raising road funding for the maintenance and major rehabilitation of roads. Of course, the “user pays” principle is a practice that is accepted worldwide. However, I must mention the fact that the question we need to answer, as a country, is about the funding model for road infrastructure development. We need to discuss that and come up with that.
As South Africa we pride ourselves on having national roads of international quality. We compete with the best in the world. As a matter of fact, we are number 18 in the world when it comes to our paved roads, and we have a road network that puts us at number 10 in the world in terms of its length. [Applause.] However, the issue is how, then, do we fund that? I am talking about national roads. We need to discuss it, and that is what we are saying. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Rev K R J MESHOE: My follow-up question was for the previous question, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! So your follow-up question related to the previous question. The hon Fubbs? [Interjections.] Hon members, I am following the screen to see the requests as members push the button on the panel in front of them. It seems to me that it is not consistent with this question. I will therefore ask members who wish to ask a follow-up question on this one to indicate so by hand. I have recognised three now: the hon member from the EFF, the hon member from the IFP, and the DA. Hon member from the EFF, please proceed.
Mr N S MATIASE
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Chairperson, we want to know, firstly, whether the ANC-led government, having borrowed money from both the International Monetary Fund and the Austrian consortium, wants the people to repay the loan, which is meant to enrich its political elite at the expense of the poor people. Secondly, does the ANC-led government want to raise the cost of living of poor households and the working class, especially those from Limpopo and the Eastern Cape who work in Gauteng, to recover the costs that will benefit the elite of the ruling party? Does the government still uphold the principle that the people shall govern? As far as we are concerned, we have found government’s stubborn pursuit of the e-toll to be a totally outrageous and disrespectful ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, your time has now expired and you have not asked your question.
Mr N S MATIASE: ... system. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Deputy Minister, do you want to respond?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, Sanral does go out to market to borrow money. That is how it works. It then comes back and we have to pay. That is the “user pays” principle. So, there is nothing wrong with that. What will make the people of the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal pay for the roads that they are not using is the fuel levy, not e-tolling, and not the tolling system. [Interjections.]
The tolling system says that if you use the road, you pay for it. It is a system that applies not only in Gauteng but in all the provinces. The only difference is that in Gauteng it is electronic and in other provinces it is manual. You pass a toll-gate, you pay. In Gauteng, you drive under the gantries and you pay later, but it is the same system. [Interjections.] That is exactly what it is all about.
However, if you are saying you must go to the Eastern Cape, the fuel levy will make a person here buy petrol and pay for the roads that they are not using in Gauteng. [Interjections.] That is what we, as the Department of Transport, have a problem with. Thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr K P SITHOLE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
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Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, are any public concerns that arise from the process taken as legitimate opposition to e-tolling? If the President says he did not ask for the upgrade of Nkandla, how can the people of Gauteng be expected to pay for a system that they did not ask for? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, as government, we have a responsibility to develop this country. We have a responsibility to attract investors ... [Interjections.] ... and one of the things that we have to ensure is proper and of good quality is our road infrastructure. No investor will come to a country that has a poor road infrastructure. Therefore, we have to do that and we have to pay for the infrastructure. The question is this: If not a tolling system, how should we pay for our national roads? All over the world, people are using the “user pays” principle to pay for the roads. We are saying that is what we are doing.
There is nobody who wants to pay. If it were up to me, I would be happy to have this dress for free! [Interjections.] I would be happy to have it for free, but we are expected to pay for services, and one of the services is for us to construct roads of good quality. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chair, it is interesting that the Deputy Minister says she would love to have the roads for free. We are already paying for these roads through our taxes. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Gautengers are now forced to pay a double tax. They are paying twice for the same item. I must just remind the Deputy Minister that members of this House, including those of her own party, the leader of Gauteng and the structures of the ANC agree with this position as well. They are not happy, just as Gautengers are not happy about paying a double tax. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The Minister of Transport has agreed to recognise the Makhura panel. She announced this and, in fact, said they would be making submissions to the panel. Does it mean, Deputy Minister, that the outcomes and recommendations made by this panel will be coming to Parliament for consideration? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I think I have said that this is the premier of Gauteng’s panel, and the report that will come out of the process is his report. There is a legislature; there is a government in Gauteng; and I want to believe that he will take it to the provincial legislature. However, I must also say that when I answered the question first, I said that, as the Department of Transport, we are more than prepared to go and actually present ourselves, together with Sanral.
Of course I also want to mention the fact that the fuel levy - as you know, because you are a member of the portfolio committee - pays for the Road Accident Fund. That is the money that actually goes to the Road Accident Fund. For the other roads, we are using S’hamba Sonke, which is actually not adequate for us to maintain and construct our roads. We need more than R169 billion if we were to maintain and construct the 750 000km road network that we have in South Africa. It cannot come from the fiscus, and that is why we definitely have to have other ways.
Of course, the tolling system is working in South Africa. It has given us the quality of roads that we have at national level, and I just want to repeat that we are at number 18 in the world in terms of the quality of our national roads and their pavements. That is what we are. Thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
QUESTION 260
QUESTION 265
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Question 260:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Sir, in 1996 the government published the White Paper on National Transport Policy. This White Paper established the policy direction and formulated a long-term vision for Transport in the newly democratic South Africa and is still relevant in terms of the vision it provided.
It articulated a mission that promoted the use of public transport over private transport through a strongly customer-based, affordable, integrated, safe and effective system in both urban and rural areas. This formed the basis for the need to subsidise services mainly for social equity reasons with greater emphasis on affordability.
In this regard, section 40 of the National Land Transport Act of 2009 stipulates that when planning authorities contract services in their areas they should do so in terms of approved integrated transport plans. The Public Transport Strategy that was approved by Cabinet in June 2007 provides a vision of a single system that integrates routes and modes into a multimodal public transport network. This is part of the transformation of the current subsidised system into a more sustainable system of public funding that integrated taxis into the networks.
The phased implementation of the integrated public transport network system has commenced in a number of cities and metropolitans. As in Item 1 above, subsidised service contracts are developed in terms of integrated transport plans. I thank you.
Mr N SINGH
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, one needs to question the relevance of a policy that was crafted in 1996, albeit that it was relooked in 2007.
The need for the subsidisation of passenger transport arose from social engineering that took place in apartheid, when people were not allowed to live in the urban areas. People were not allowed to even live in the areas where jobs were provided. That is the reason that subsidisation came to the fore. However, the dynamics have changed since then.
Public transport at the moment is mainly the use of taxis and the question to the hon Deputy Minister is: Are taxi operators who are legitimate being subsidised? It is not the operator who needs the subsidy but the person who is using that mode of transport.
I would like to know this: Is there any form of subsidisation for those passengers who use those forms of public transport? There are also those passengers who are travelling on buses and who do not get subsidies: Why should they not be considered for affordable transport as well? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I think it is a good question. I agree with you, hon member, that 69,7% of the people of South Africa who travel on public transport use taxis as their mode of transport. To assist the taxi industry, government introduced what we referred to as Taxi Recapitalisation. In that way, we were actually trying not only to assist and subsidise but also to scrap taxis that were not roadworthy.
I must come to the issue of the subsidisation of taxis. The very fact that we are in constant consultation with the taxi industry is clear. If you actually look at the system of subsidisation, it is a little bit difficult to do it for now but we are indeed looking into that. We are meeting with the taxi industry; we regard them as our important stakeholder. We think we will find a solution as we go forward. It is indeed in the interest of government to look into that matter. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G S RADEBE
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Mr G S RADEBE: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the extensive answer. My question is that when you look at the most deeply rural areas, the issue of the National Transport Policy has not been integrated very firmly to assist those rural municipalities and the modes of transport that are operating in those areas.
I am trying to check how far you are in terms of engaging the rural municipalities to ensure that they integrate the transport policy with their IDPs and that at least there is firm implementation of the National Development Plan in those municipalities. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: We are interacting with municipalities through the structures of government, for instance Salga. Our Minmec meetings are attended by MECs but also by representatives of Salga, to discuss matters including the integration of transport in the rural areas.
I must indicate that the taxis and also the small bus operators are indeed providing transport in the rural areas. This is exactly what I was talking about when I responded to the question that was asked by the former member: We are in constant communication with the people, including those in the rural areas.
It is indeed in our interest to ensure and see to it that they too get quality transport. We are trying to do that. It is not going to be easy but I think we are on our way to achieving our dream of integrated transport, both in rural areas and in the urban areas. I thank you.
Mr C H H HUNSINGER
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
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Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Hon Deputy Minister, why are you allowing the Gauteng province to issue licences illegally, instead of the appropriate authority: the metropolitan cities? This forces all Gauteng taxi operators to operate illegally. And, why were subsidies not part of the initial design?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Sir, I think you must actually give me that information. I am not aware that Gauteng is issuing licences illegally. [Interjections.] What exactly do you mean?
The fact of the matter is that when people register their cars here in Gauteng, it is expensive. Therefore, they go to provinces that are not expensive to register their cars. That is the problem and that is the reason that all the trucks in the Western Cape are registered as GP – as a Gauteng truck – because registering a car in the Western Cape is expensive.
It is a matter that we are looking into at Minmec level - whether we can actually standardise the licensing and the fees that are paid for licensing. You are not telling us that there is an office in Gauteng that is actually issuing licences illegally. Give us the information; we will investigate that. You are expensive in the Western Cape and therefore people are going to other provinces. [Interjections.] That is a fact! I thank you very much.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, I do not know if the hon Deputy Minister deliberately misunderstood the question or if she simply did not understand the question. She did not answer the question that was put to her about who was issuing licences. It was not about where people buy licences. Can the hon member please repeat his question to the Minister?
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, hon member, the Deputy Minister has responded to the question. Hon Mbatha, please proceed.
Mr M S MBATHA
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THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
Mr M S MBATHA: Chairperson, my question to the hon Deputy Minister is: If possible, would now not be the time for this government to at least give the assurance that in this term of office the issue of the taxi subsidy will be resolved? You have been talking about this with the taxi owners since 1995. In fact, I recommend that taxis should have stickers that say, “The ANC government never loved us.”
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Unfortunately for you, sir, they will not accept that. As the Department of Transport, we are working with the taxi industry. They know exactly what the problems are in the taxi industry. The fact that they are used to cashing in money in the evening as taxi owners makes it very difficult to subsidise.
We have said they must look into the issue of co-operatives so that they worked together and then we could actually fund that. We have put a number of proposals before the taxi industry and they are discussing those. We are attending their conferences. We have said they must look into the recapitalisation programme, for instance. We have extended it by two years and we are in constant discussion with them.
They know exactly that this government cares. They know exactly that the recapitalisation is actually talking to that. They know exactly that we intend to assist and to subsidise them. And they know that we are interacting with them. So, they will definitely not accept what you are saying. They will not; I can tell you that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
QUESTION 221
QUESTION 260
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Question 221:
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: House Chair, may I just indicate upfront that the question is taken very seriously by us in the department because we understand very well what it means for small businesses not to be paid on time. I can even personalise it by saying that my grandmother was a small business person who did not have any institutional support or bank support and I can imagine what it would have done to her if she was not paid the money that was owed to her. That would have meant that she would not even have been able to pay my school fees.
We therefore agree with hon Shaik that this is an important issue, which is of interest to every one of us. We think the issue of timely payment is linked to human dignity. It affects cash flow and thus the survival of the enterprise. As such, it is in our collective interest to solve this problem.
As a department, we are in the process of developing systems that will enable us to capture the necessary information relating to late payment. We are aware of the challenges facing small enterprises and co-operatives. We also note that there are regulations in the Public Finance Management Act and Municipal Finance Management Act that provide for the payment of suppliers within 30 days.
There is a need to strengthen a thorough enforcement mechanism. Efforts are under way already. For instance, the accounting officers of both the national and provincial departments have compliance with the 30-day payment as one of their key performance areas.
As a department, through the Swedish International Development Co-operation Agency, Sida, established a delayed payment hotline to assist small enterprises who do not get paid in time and within the 30 days. As at August 2014, the hotline has so far facilitated R400 million to small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs.
According to the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is also responsible for developing appropriate sanctions for departments that have 20% of their payments beyond 30 days. The Department of Small Business Development, together with National Treasury, will provide support in the form of inputs for the development of appropriate sanctions because we think we need to really strengthen this arm.
Hon Shaik Emam, we will appreciate further details of the R600 million referred to because, again, it is of interest. In this regard, we would like the House to note that the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is in the process of developing sanctions against those departments that fail to comply with a 30-day payment. Once this process is complete, we undertake to pursue appropriate action. Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. I have been informed that the hon Shelembe will take charge of the supplementary question on behalf of the hon Shaik Emam. Is there a supplementary question? [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Mr M L SHELEMBE
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
Mr M L SHELEMBE: Thank you. I am partly covered, but ... [Laughter.] … regarding the action that will be taken against departments that do not comply with the time, how will we know that action has been taken?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, of course, at the end of the day, our interests here go beyond this House. So, when we say we will try to put action in place, working together with departments, it is the people whom we are talking about - the small and medium enterprises - that will be able to judge us and whether we have put action in place that is effective and efficient or not.
Secondly, we have a portfolio committee, in which members of the opposition also sit, and obviously the responsibility of that portfolio committee is to oversee the work we do. So, I am hoping that members of the opposition who sit in that portfolio committee will continue to monitor exactly what we are stating in the House. At the end of the day, it is what we do for the people concerned, the small and medium enterprises and co-operatives, that is of importance. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr R W T CHANCE
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
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Mr R W T CHANCE: Thank you, Minister, I am very glad to hear you are concerned about this big problem. I would like to ask what steps you are taking to name and shame the offending departments so that there is pressure on them to actually do something about their impact on small businesses. Also, what research is being done to establish how many small businesses have closed down as a result of the long payment and what effect this has had on the economy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon Chance. The steps that we have to take can obviously not be steps that are enforced by our department only. When we talk about all the departments in government having the responsibility to make sure that payments are made, it means the system that we have to put in place as a department must allow for that. By the way, we will not be putting a system in place for the first time. There are systems that have been put in place before, including the fact that the President himself has made sure that something is being done in Monitoring and Evaluation.
I agree with you: naming and shaming is very important. I am sure that once that system is in place, no department will want to find itself in that space.
What I would like to say is that, as a department, particularly because we have the opportunity of sitting in Cabinet and in other cluster committee meetings, this is where we are going to be selling this whole issue to our own colleagues, telling them of the importance of paying small and medium enterprises on time. Whatever system we are going to put in place, we will have to make sure that those who are not paying will be answerable prominently.
Regarding the research, I must say, hon Chance and hon members, that a lot of research has already been done out there. I have found this to be the case since I came into office. The challenge we have is that this research is sitting in different places. The research is sitting with academic institutions, business and some government departments.
What we need to do is bring all that information together so that we are able to use it effectively and point out that when we say small and medium enterprises have an important role to play in the economy of the country, these facts and figures show that. We will collate and put together all that information, which, by the way, is also able to assist us as we develop our intervention programmes. Thank you, Chair.
Ms S J NKOMO
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
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Ms S J NKOMO: Chair, does the Minister consider the current broad relationship between government departments and small private business as being favorable and conducive to economic growth?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon member, for that question. We have indicated that the fact that government decided to set up a Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises was simply because there was recognition of the fact that the relationship we are talking about is not at the level where it needs to be. Therefore, having a Ministry that will focus on small and medium enterprises will give us an opportunity to develop and strengthen that relationship. That relationship, in our opinion, is important because, I repeat, is it would be a problem for us to say that small and medium enterprises are important to the economy without ensuring that the opportunities that exist for small and medium enterprises are communicated, nurtured and nursed properly by us and by all other interested parties. Thank you, Chair.
Mr B D JOSEPH
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The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
Mr B D JOSEPH: Is there anything that stops this government and its entities from paying SMMEs within 14 days after the service has been rendered, rather than the 30-day rule? Growth is negatively impacting on the expansion of SMMEs. Why is it that this government does not gear its systems towards paying SMMEs within 14 days if they are serious about promoting SMMEs?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think I have partly answered that question, but I can still indicate to the hon member that the commitment that we are giving is to turn this around. However, I would also like to say that there is another side to this coin of late payment. It is partly an issue of government not paying on time, but one of the things that we need to work on - and I am saying this from practical experience and what I have seen and heard on the ground since I came into the office - is the fact that in the process of filling in and filing their papers, some of our small and medium enterprises do not do it right. So, it becomes our responsibility to make sure that the skills exist to inform them of what they need to do.
Another issue is the kind of person who sits behind the desk and is supposed to be making the payments. Sometimes you find that our own officials behind the desk do not really have a complete understanding of the implications when they simply shuffle paper around instead of paying small and medium enterprises. We are saying that we will put systems in place that not only look at what government is supposed to do but also at how we can empower our own people to make sure that when they submit, they submit correctly. On top of that - again, in my experience - is that our own people are not empowered enough to know what else they must do when they are not being paid; what are the systems at their disposal which they can use to expose the people who are not doing the right thing by paying them at the right time. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. Before I proceed to the next question, I want to request the Whips of the parties to ensure that the member who is standing in to take a supplementary question on behalf of an absent member is informed timeously that he or she will be recognised so that the member who is taking the supplementary question is not caught off guard.
Mr X MABASA: Chairperson, you did not see me indicate that I wanted to ask a follow-up question. May I please do so?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, unfortunately the four supplementary questions allowed by the Rules have been taken up. Your name came up as the sixth request for a follow-up question.
QUESTION 266: MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
QUESTION 221
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Question 266:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon Chairperson, on Friday the department will be appearing before the portfolio committee to provide more details on the efforts that we have been putting in place to ensure that the SA Post Office, SAPO, is stable and delivers the mail as early as possible.
Regarding the first issue, the ongoing strike, we remain concerned about the violence and intimidation marking the current unprotected industrial action. By the way, these strikes have been going on since 2011. As of this morning, 167 cases have been reported to the police. These cases include instances of malicious damage to property, intimidation and assault.
As the department we met, individually and collectively, with all the representatives of the leaders of the Post Office to understand their issues and talk about the implications of the industrial action. This culminated in us hosting, on 2 October, a labour summit that included all these stakeholders.
The summit resolved to re-establish the former labour forums, which were not functioning. There is now a leadership forum, which is tasked with taking forward all the issues raised by the workers and management. This forum also has to finalise the turnaround strategy of the Post Office.
On the second matter, that of the financial aspect of the Post Office, in February this year the President signed the proclamation authorising the Special Investigating Unit to investigate the allegations of serious maladministration in the affairs of the Post Office. This work will uncover the extent of the challenges at SAPO and give us the best opportunity to turn it around for the long term. It is also common cause that the mail volume has been steadily dropping. Mail volume is the source of the bulk of the Post Office’s revenue, amounting to 65%.
In addition to the declining mail volume, SAPO is also required to fulfil the universal service obligations, which is a condition for the licence. These obligations, in monetary terms, constitute about R473 million per annum in expenditure versus the revenue of a mere R73 million, leaving a shortfall of about R400 million.
The regulatory regime currently in place also assumes that SAPO will be provided with a monopoly space for a particular configurated letter to compensate for this shortfall. However, the difficulties that the regulator has to monitor this have further exacerbated this because there are a lot of piracy operators out there.
The general trend of providing tariff increases that have consistently been below the consumer price index has also not helped the situation. In an attempt to counter this trend, SAPO has developed and will continue to develop information and communications technology-supported alternatives, such as e-post, in an attempt to retain major customers and grow new customers.
SAPO is also offering nontraditional services such as motor vehicle licences and third-party payment on behalf of municipalities, which has produced good results as far as revenue generation is concerned. Were this to be adopted nationally, that would add significantly to the revenue of SAPO.
SAPO has also successfully undertaken school textbook warehousing and distribution in the Northern Cape and Limpopo. This is where the greatest opportunity lies for the organisation to grow its revenue. The warehousing and distribution of school textbooks and medicine on a national scale will certainly assist the organisation to be financially stable.
SAPO is also planning to distribute set-top boxes. SAPO’s share of government business is very low compared to other countries of a similar nature, such as Brazil, India and Turkey. If we could just increase the government’s share of business by 20%, government would be able to solve all these problems.
We believe that if these measures were adopted together with...
Mr M WATERS: Chair, may I rise on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you for your answer, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, I was rising on Rule 113(3), which limits the amount of time a Minister has to reply to a question to five minutes maximum. Thank you, therefore, for stopping the Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much, hon member, but as you noted, I already asked the Minister to stop. Is there a supplementary question, hon Kubayi?
Ms M T KUBAYI
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Ms M T KUBAYI: Minister, I think it is important to understand the importance of the Post Office in delivering services to the people, in terms of making sure that those who rely on the Post Office receive their books, medication, licenses and so on.
In light of the opportunities that exist in respect of motor licenses, third-party payments to municipalities and all the other aspects around ICT, what action will be taken against people who have been found guilty after investigation - that is, if you do investigate. What will be done to those who are found by the SIU to have breached the law and not followed Treasury regulations? What will happen to them? Will there be action against them? Is action currently being taken against anyone at the Post Office? We need to know this so that we can build confidence in society that there is no lawlessness in the Post Office. Are there appeals for those who are on strike to go back to work?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon Kubayi. As we have said, the forum we established is working very hard to ensure that workers come back to work and the numbers of those who are returning to work are increasing.
In terms of the services, as you know the Post Office has the biggest reach, more so than any other institution in South Africa, particularly in the rural areas. We are looking at other additional services, like the payment of pensions, so that we can extend the services we are giving.
In addition, those who breach the law will be dealt with either through the SIU investigation or current issues in which I am involved.
We are currently looking at leadership issues in the Post Office. I have written to the board about some of the continuing irregularities and they are responding. As we finalise those responses, we will be able to take action if we find wrongdoing. We hope to come back to the committee and inform them as soon as we finalise those processes. Thank you.
Ms C DUDLEY
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Ms C DUDLEY: Hon Chair, through you to the hon Minister, what is the situation regarding insurance and government culpability relating to lost mail and how will government be dealing with this? Hon Kubayi mentioned many of the critical services that have been disrupted. Also, institutions like Unisa and other distance learning institutions must have been seriously impacted. How will students be compensated? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Those are issues that the leadership and management of the Post Office will have to deal with. What we have done as a department, particularly in the case of major customers like Unisa, is that we have been setting up systems to ensure that Unisa students receive their mail. Unisa has been co-operative in this regard, so those students who will be writing exams will get their assignments in preparation for the exams.
We will continue to engage other major stakeholders in a system that will ensure that those services do not come to a standstill. I think that answers your question, hon member.
Mr M HLENGWA
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson and Minister, you have covered the issue of Unisa, but I feel a bit worried when you say “we will”. It is already exam time and students need their books and so on. The second area of concern is matriculants who are applying to institutions of higher learning. Will they get their mail so that they will receive the necessary responses and information to fill in their applications correctly?
I think the discussion you had with Unisa needs to be extended to other tertiary institutions to make sure that we are able to facilitate the progression of Grade 12 learners to institutions of higher learning in a seamless manner. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon Hlengwa. Let me just assure you that we have been interacting and working with Unisa well in advance in preparation for these exams. Actually, we have been working very closely with Unisa for the whole of September. They even allowed us space where we could sort their post and distribute it from their premises, where possible.
I have noted your concern about the applications for next year. We will continue in that regard, but our main intention is to ensure that all the workers go back to work and deliver the services so that we do not encounter problems. The reality is that it is mainly the poor who use the Post Office for distance education and the working class who gets medicine through the Post Office; sickly people. So, the strike is affecting the poor the most. That is why the social partners in the Post Office are working very hard so that we find a lasting solution to this problem and get workers to go back to work and stop the ongoing violence. Thank you.
Mr C MACKENZIE
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Mr C MACKENZIE: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister, I am glad you alluded to leadership at the Post Office, given that those at the head of the SA Post office are leaving the organisation faster than rats off the Titanic. This includes the group CEO, Christopher Hlekane; the group executive: mail business, Janras Kotsi; a board member, Nobuhle Mthethwa, and reportedly a few more.
The board responsible for driving the SAPO turnaround strategy is presiding over an organisation that cannot even get the Auditor-General to sign off on their annual reports due to a lack of financial control and irregular expenditure, not to mention the SIU and Public Protector investigations. Given that countless customers and businesses are now looking for alternative ways of sending their mail, I ask this question on behalf of them and so many others who suffered as a result of this three-month strike: Given the lack of leadership right at the top - and, like Emperor Nero, even you, Minister, were absent, fiddling in South Korea while the Post Office burnt - who is left as the head of this organisation to implement any kind of turnaround strategy and when will this strike end? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon House Chair, as I have said, I do not remember myself wandering around in Korea. I was doing government work.
On the leadership question, there are two processes. There is a SIU process, which we hope will be finalised soon and action will be taken. There is a separate process which I, as the responsible Minister, have instituted to try and make those in leadership account for their current actions.
As I have said, they are busy responding because we have to follow the law. They are currently responding and I am considering these responses. We will be able to take appropriate action depending on these responses.
This strike is not only three months old. As I have said, this strike has been on and off since 2011. As we have said before, the challenge was labour brokers. [Interjections.] They brought most of the problems to the Post Office. When we attempted to shift away from this, the management of that process was not of the best. That is why we are talking about the turnaround strategy.
Lastly, the declining mail volume is a global phenomenon and that is why we are talking about ways to diversify the services of the Post Office and modernise them. Thank you.
QUESTION 267
QUESTION 266
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Question 267:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C Mashego): Chairperson, our response is as follows: We have 14 offices in the country and three provinces that have two offices each, which are KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and the Western Cape. As at 22 October 2014, 29 466 claims have been received at the 14 lodgement offices.
The challenges of that are: One, claimants often do not have substantive evidence and details with regard to the right to that lost land. Two, unscrupulous persons are trying to use the process to their own benefit, inter alia by charging unsuspecting claimants fees under the guise of providing assistance or selling claim forms. Lastly, due to the limited number of offices, some delays have been experienced. There is also a high volume of claims, especially in the initial stage after the reopening.
Action taken to overcome those challenges are the following: Various communication activities have been undertaken to ensure that prospective claimants collate all the information required to successfully lodge and claim prior to visiting a lodgement office to submit their claims. The staff at the lodgement offices received training to ensure that claims are submitted as comprehensively as possible. Staff members are also compelled by the Restitution Act to assist claimants in submitting their claims. Sixty trained geometric officers have been deployed nationally to assist lodgement offices to properly detail land and property descriptions on all claims. Mobile communication vehicles have been deployed in each province to target areas where potential fraud could emerge.
An anticorruption message is part of the communication campaign for the reopening of claims. In terms of the Restitution Act, it is also illegal for a person to prevent or obstruct another from lodging a claim and it is illegal to submit a fraudulent claim, including not disclosing other potentially interested parties. Any reports of fraud or irregularities are reported to the communications unit for an immediate media release or other form of communication to be issued. Four mobile lodgement offices are in the process of being procured in order to target high-volume areas to reduce the pressure and potential delay at lodgement offices. A key message in the communication strategy is that the claimant has five years to claim and that it is advisable to ensure that the claim is submitted with as much supportive documentation as possible.
Mr P J MNGUNI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon House Chair, I rise to ask the hon Deputy Minister a follow-up question. Thank you very much, Deputy Minister, for the elaborate response. My follow-up question seeks to shed more light on cases where land rights cannot be restored due to changing material conditions over the passage of time. In what way is the Land Claims Commission actively seeking to award alternative forms of equitable redress to claimants? Do they discourage claimants from merely seeking financial awards that do not address moving the same claimant back to the land?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the court has emphasised the principle of restoration unless the public interest considerations suggest otherwise. Where restoration is not feasible, claimants are offered alternative land or financial compensation. I thank you.
Mr T C R WALTERS
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
Mr T C R WALTERS: Hon Chair, there is no doubt that restitution has to be funded. Given the claims made by the department on the eve of recent elections of an estimated 397 000 valid land claims, requiring tens of billions of rands to settle, and given that these estimates are not reflected in the department’s budgetary framework over the next five years, does the Minister intend to abandon these estimates - maybe they were there for the elections - as false or untrue or, alternatively, admit that the department has no intention to fund restitution properly?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the hon member is correct. However, the calculation was done by researchers. It was not presented by the department. Of course, any person has the right to do research and make proposals. However, as it stands, the department - whatever they have planned for each financial year - is going to deliver, as it has been delivering. I thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, would it mean then, on the basis of the answer that you have given, that we do not have claims that are nearing finalisation. Are there any claims that are nearing finalisation since the offices have been opened?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, there are claims that are nearing completion, especially claims that were launched somewhere in 1998. Regarding the new claims that have been launched since the reopening, nothing is ready because we still have to do the research. Thank you very much.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Mr J A MNGXITAMA: House Chair, the Deputy Minister is either misleading this House or is basically badly advised. Actually, there is no money for restitution. The office of the Auditor-General has advised our committee on land that we need R4 billion to settle. We have approved projects since 1998. We are not talking about the R179 billion that is being asked by the department for new claims in terms of the lodgement claims that have been reopened.
Here is the scandal: In this financial year, less than R3 billion has been allocated for the restitution process. Therefore, when the Deputy Minister says there is money, she does not know what she is talking about. We do not have the R4 billion for the projects that have already been approved. We do not have money for the projects that are currently being processed. There is no money for the newly opened claims process.
Therefore, there is a crisis on our hands. This crisis is the result of a very simple thing: the 1913 process of land restitution is about stolen property. Why are we using the taxpayer’s money to pay for stolen property? That is it. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, I think the hon member is the financial officer in the department. [Interjections.] Nevertheless, I want to indicate that the demand for people to get land is definitely very high. However, as the state we have a certain budget that we must spend each and every year. Here we are doing cash accounting. If you count the billion within the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, I will agree with you. If you count the money that you are supposed to spend within the one financial year, I am saying, we are ready, we are spending and we are going to deliver with what we have. What the hon member has said politically - that the land has been stolen - that is your view. [Applause.]
QUESTION 223
QUESTION 267
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Question 223:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon House Chair, with regard to the projects being delayed and not completed on time, the Department of Public Works infrastructure delivery model relies fully on an open-tender market, where reliance is placed squarely on the performance of the contractors. In the main, the delays are caused by the poor performance of service providers. We have observed with concern that contractors, both established and emerging, tend to experience cash-flow problems when projects reach 70% of completion. This affects their ability to pay their subcontractors, who then withhold their services, to the detriment of the project.
Where we can, the department applies remedies allowed for in the terms and conditions of the contract, such as performance penalties. These are sometimes effective if the contractors manage to correct their financial situation. At the extreme, the contractor may never recover and this leaves the department with no option but to cancel the contract. Cancellation of the contract implies that the department must now embark on a new process to secure new contractors, which leads to further delays.
To improve the situation, firstly, the department is looking at tightening the tender evaluation and risk assessment process within the norms of the supply chain management policy. Secondly, the intention is to interrogate the price offer received from the bidder scoring the highest points. We will investigate if the offer price is not on par with the market cost. Also, there is a scientifically proven process indicating how the price is determined and if the offer price will indeed enable the contractor to complete the project, despite possible losses arising from poor labour or poor cost management during the construction.
Processes followed by the department to ensure that projects are completed on time are the close monitoring of projects by the department’s project managers and the appointed professional services team, which includes architects, quantity surveyors and engineers. Also, monitoring is done through the prescribed processes of technical and site meetings, which are chaired by the departmental project managers, and the reporting of progress, based on project milestones, as per the approved programme by service providers to the department.
In terms of giving value for money, service providers are paid for the value of the work done. In the construction environment, the contractor prepares and submits his or her claim, which gets evaluated by the professional quantity surveyor and by some of the professional teams. Thereafter it is submitted to the department for approval. So, within the department, prior certification of the work done is undertaken by the project manager before payment is made. The evaluation is also verified by an internal quantity surveyor prior to the final approval for payment by the delegated authority. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr S J MASANGO
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
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Mr S J MASANGO: Hon Chair and hon Minister, projects that are delayed are not only a financial burden, but are also a violation of human rights. Therefore, a project not completed, whether it be a school, hospital, prison or correctional facility, etc, denies people access to such a facility.
The recent visit by the Minmec to the mental health hospital in Kimberley is just one example. This project was supposed to be completed in two years, starting in 2011, but it has not beencompleted yet. [Interjections.] It is now the third revision of this project and the budget has escalated from R449 million to R700 million. Hon Minister, I want to know if this is the only project or how many projects are in the same situation in that area? Is this the way the government is treating the vulnerable people of South Africa?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Unfortunately for you, hon member, that is a project of the public works department of the Northern Cape, with its own executive authority and accounting officer. However, this is a problem and we are dealing with it as the whole Public Works family - the Minister and the MECs. How do we deal with these delays, especially once there is litigation? Once there is litigation over contracts, there is no way one can just continue and neglect that. One has to respect the court processes - and court processes, unfortunately, are not under our control. They can take a year, two or even three years. Sometimes people even go to the extent of appealing, and we have to respect that. This is a matter that we are discussing and we are looking at very constructive ways of dealing with it. We are also discussing it with the justice system, talking about how we are going to ensure that if there is a delay as a result of litigation, we are able to continue with the process and settle the others, once there is a court outcome. But, unfortunately, we are tied by the legal processes. Thank you.
Mr K S MUBU
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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
Mr K S MUBU: Hon Minister, have you been able to establish the overall impact of these delayed projects on the communities affected? I am thinking about mud schools, for example, and the delays and impact that that has on service delivery in those areas. But I am also interested to know whether, when these projects are cancelled, you have been able to quantify the losses to government that resulted from such cancellations. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The overall impact is clear: a delayed project means delayed service delivery. That is clear. However, it is because of factors beyond our control. Firstly, we cannot defy the courts. Secondly, it is about quantifying. We do quantify this. As in the example that was given by our colleague here - the one who asked the question - sometimes the project ends up being more than its original price. So, we are able to quantify that, because if there is a delay ... [Interjections.] Just accept it. If there is a delay, we have to start advertising from scratch. If you do not do that, it means you are not respecting the very same processes you have prescribed.
Sometimes you find that you have to start by breaking down some parts of the project and start far behind, instead of just continuing with the project. Those are all cost implications. It does happen everywhere. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! May I ask hon members of the different parties that when they have asked a question, please listen to the answers given instead of interjecting and disturbing the person who is responding to their question.
Mr K P SITHOLE
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
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Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, how will the department ensure that future projects are completed on time and what consequences are awaiting those who are responsible for any delays due to overexpenditure or corruption?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: What we have done is to ensure that we appoint the right technical people, who must follow these projects properly. Remember, part of the problem that we as the department have been facing has been the issue of skilled personnel in the built environment. We have now made those appointments in most of the areas. But also, there is nothing else we can do - if people are not performing, we have to come up with penalties. That is what we are doing now. Of course, it does not mean that we will do away with these. If people have violated contracts, they have to be dealt with head on. Then it becomes a legal process and then things get delayed. If we have to do that, we will. Thank you.
Ms E K M MASEHELA
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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
Ms E K M MASEHELA: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, given that delays experienced by the Department of Public Works are in the main attributed to poor performance by service providers and subsequently by defaulting subcontractors, what are the specifics that are being considered to tighten the tender evaluation and risk assessment processes? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: It is easy. It is just for us to be robust in the systems we are putting in place and also to deal with the issues of the risks we are talking about. One part of the problem is the need to ensure that all the companies appointed have the necessary skills and that people do not bite off more than they can chew. That is part of the problem facing us.
The other side of it is that we need to ensure that we do not end up with only big companies having all the necessary skills. How do you also empower the small companies? These are the issues we are facing, hence we are also talking about issues of empowerment. But we also need to make sure that at least people have the minimum and that we pair the small companies with the big companies. I mean, that is part of our programme. Thank you.
QUESTION 268
QUESTION 223
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Question 268:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Minister, we have now concluded the follow-up questions on that matter. We are moving to Question 268. I want to give this announcement regarding the question asked by hon P T Mantashe to the Minister of Trade and Industry.
Neither the Minister of Trade and Industry nor the Deputy Minister are present today, because they are representing South Africa at our Trade Expo in China. Since there is no other Cabinet member to respond on their behalf, it was determined that previous questions to the Minister of Trade and Industry would stand over, pending a discussion in the Programme Committee tomorrow morning. It follows, therefore, that Question 268 by hon Mantashe will also stand over, pending that discussion. We will now move to Question 269, which has been asked by hon Magadzi to the Minister of Transport.
QUESTION 269
QUESTION 268
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Question 269:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, the community of Kuruman in the Northern Cape province has been demanding the upgrade from gravel to tar of the two major access roads in the Joe Morolong Local Municipality, namely the MR950 and MR947, with a total length of 130 km. The Northern Cape department of roads and public works and the Sishen Iron Ore Community Trust, SIOC, signed a memorandum of understanding to upgrade the 130 km road. The Sishen Iron Ore Community Trust will upgrade 57 kilometers of the road, whereas the Northern Cape department of roads and public works will construct 73 kilometers of the road. This project will be implemented over the next Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.
The upgrading of the provincial road network is the responsibility of provincial departments responsible for the road’s function. Since the roads are provincial roads, upgrading will be funded through the equitable share allocation for the Northern Cape department of roads and public works.
In 2011 the national Department of Transport established the S’Hamba Sonke road maintenance programme, which is funded through the provincial roads maintenance grant, a schedule 4 conditional grant, which is dedicated to addressing the road maintenance backlogs of the provincial road networks.
Once the road is upgraded, the S’Hamba Sonke road maintenance programme will be introduced for the maintenance of that particular road network. I thank you, Chair.
Mrs D P MAGADZI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
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Mrs D P MAGADZI: House Chairperson, with regard to what has happened in Kuruman, we must certainly have learnt certain lessons, among others lessons that relate to the relationship and interaction between the three spheres of government. The question is: Are we able to say, as government or as the Department of Transport, that there are other things we can do going forward so that that tendency does not appear in other provinces? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, indeed, there are lessons to be learnt, but it is also important that we all say, without any fear of contradiction, that children or learners should not be used when there are issues to be dealt with in communities. I think we have to say that it is wrong to prevent children from going to school because schooling is their right, and it is enshrined in the Constitution. I think we have got to say that.
Of course, as the Department of Transport, we are in constant interaction with provincial structures such as Minmec, as I indicated in the past. I must also indicate that we have national, provincial and municipal roads. In an event where national government has to intervene or assist in a provincial or municipal road, there are procedures that must be followed. It does not just happen. There are procedures to follow so that whatever intervention is required is legitimate. I thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Nk M S KHAWULA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
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IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo weNdlu, ngizokhuluma ngesiZulu ngoba nginguMzulu webafowethu. Mina bengifuna ukubuza la kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi ngibona la kukhulunywa nge-Kuruman uma kukhulunywa ngemgwaqo yasemakhaya. Bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi ngabe uNgqongqoshe uthini ngalezi ezinye izindawo zasemakhaya ezingenayo imigwaqo; nekhona iwubhuqu? Omunye nje umgwaqo osendaweni okuthiwa yiseMthandeni kwafa abantu kuwo kwangaba ndaba zalutho ngenxa yokuthi awunakiwe futhi akukho ngisho izimpawu zomgwaqo.
Imigwaqo engena emakhaya kobantu ayilungiswa nhlobo, amabhuloho akhona kuleyo mgwaqo ihamba amanzi ngaphezulu kangangoba izingane azikwazi ukuhamba kuyo uma ziya ezikoleni. Imigwaqo ekhona yayilungiswe ngogandaganda kudala kusekhona u-GG.
Ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi ngempela ngempela iNingizimu Afrika iyonke ngabe uhulumeni uma ekhipha isabelomali ubashiya ngaphandle ngaliphi abantu abamnyama abasemakhaya ngoba angiyiboni intuthuko ezindaweni zasemakhaya efana neyabantu abasemadolobheni? [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, your time is up.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyacela Ngqongqoshe ake nicabangeleni abantu abasezindaweni ezisemakhaya. Ngabe anikho la ukube abantu abasezindaweni ezisemakhaya abekho! Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Sihlalo we Ndlu, umbuzo obubuziwe ubukhuluma nge-Kuruman, ngakho-ke, siphendula umbuzo obubuziwe.
Kodwa-ke, kuyiqiniso ukuthi kunezinselele eziphathelene nemgwaqo esemakhaya futhi kuyiqiniso ukuthi ikhona imali esiyikhiphayo singuhulumeni ka-S’Hamba Sonke. Le mali iba imali engaka! Uma ngabe nje sithi yizigidigidi zamarandi eziyisi-9 sisuke sibala zonke izifundazwe. Uma ngabe sithi siyihambise kuzo zonke izifundazwe, sisho izifundazwe zonke. Ngakho-ke, ayeneli le mali njengokufisa kwethu. Yingakho siwuMnyango sibuka ukuthi kufanele kube nezinye izindlela ezisetshenziswayo ukuze sibe nemali yokulungisa imgwaqo.
Ngicabanga ukuthi amalungu ale Ndlu ngelinye ilanga ayolithola ithuba lokuthi sikhulumisane kahle siyeka ukwenza izinkinga zibe yindaba yezombusazwe, sibuke ukuthi nje, kahle hle, imigwaqo yaseNingizimu Afrika njengoba ingamakhilomitha ayi-750 000 ingabe kufanele ixhaswe kanjani ukuze ilungiswe.
Kufanele siyikhulume le ndaba, siyeke ukuphakamisa imimoya; siyikhulume kahle ukuze siphume nezimpendulo. Ngobe le mali ka-S’Hamba Sonke ayaneli ukulungisa lonke uhleloxhumano lwemigwaqo yesizwe. Sizoyithola kanjani-ke imali eyenele ngoba uma siletha uhlelo lokuthelelwa kwemigwaqo kuthiwa cha asingalulethi? Kodwa, emhlabeni la amazwe anemigwaqo emihle nje yilo lolu hlelo olusebenzayo! [Ubuwelewele.] Vele kusebenza umgomo wokuthelelwa kwemigwaqo, phecelezi i-user pay principle! Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Are there any supplementary questions?
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
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Mr M S F DE FREITAS: House Chairperson, this community is not unique in that they were asking for service delivery with regard to the lack of proper roads and infrastructure. What systems and mechanisms exist to ensure that all the needy communities are prioritised in getting their road infrastructure built, and not just communities that shout and toyi-toyi the loudest?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, the problem probably is that I responded to the question in isiZulu, because it was asked in isiZulu. The question that is being asked now is the very same question that I have just responded to.
We have what is called the S’Hamba Sonke road maintenance programme and grant, which is limited. The grant is transferred to provinces and provinces are using that money for municipalities to maintain and construct roads. It is a fact that the grant is not adequate.
We also acknowledge the fact that it is not only the Kuruman community that lacks proper access to roads and related infrastructure, but other parts of the country as well. We are attending to that.
I think the question that has been asked is the same question that was asked by the other member. Of course, the member who asked the question is also a member of the portfolio committee, and we do discuss these things in the portfolio committee meetings, almost every day. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr M S MABIKA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
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Mr M S MABIKA: House Chairperson, my question to the Deputy Minister is: Is it true that in response to the blockages of Kuruman, the Minister of Transport made a commitment to the effect that the road in question is going to be constructed in phases? If that is the case, is this country ready to respond in a similar way to all the other blockages that are still going to be taking place because of the road problems in this country?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, this is exactly what I said when I responded to the question. I said: The construction will be implemented over the next Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. That is exactly what I said. So, the answer to the question is, yes.
However, I must indicate something again, because I did not understand exactly what he meant when he said, “whether it is going to happen everywhere in the country”. We have a programme for the year and we have a programme for five years, and in a programme the provinces will indicate the roads that it is going to construct and the roads that it is going to maintain.
Based on the business plan received, we transfer the S’Hamba Sonke grant and the business plan is then submitted to the national Department of Transport. The business plan will indicate the road that is going to be constructed, the amount of money needed for the construction and the time it will take.
The department then transfers that amount of money. We then monitor whether the budget allocated is spent according to the province’s business plan. So, this is what we are doing. Of course, this happens over a period of time because, as I said, if we had money we would need something like R169 billion, just once, for us to construct and to maintain South African roads. In the absence of adequate funds, we do it in phases and, of course, gradually. Thank you.
QUESTION 227
QUESTION 269
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Question 227:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: House Chairperson, the Postbank will continue to offer the card and book-based savings and deposit account to individuals and groups. The Postbank recently introduced a new youth product called Aspire. In addition, Postbank will enhance customer value propositions by introducing Internet banking and mobile banking for customers for their convenience.
Postbank already has a call centre for interaction with their customers. The bank needs to position its product and services to be in line with those offered by others in the banking industry. So, the introduction of the new channels will increase accessibility for customers, for example mobile banking, banking-on-wheels and their own automated teller machines, to reduce costs to customers.
The South African Postbank Limited Act, as a mandate, also makes provision for offering learning products to loyal customers after the banking licence is obtained. Lending as well as bank assurance products are also in the pipeline post the awarding of the licence.
The book-based products of the Postbank are key differentiators at this stage and the future offerings will continue to cater for customers in the lower Living Standards Measure, LSM. These differentiators include being among the most affordable in the banking industry, leveraging our vast distribution network, especially in rural areas, and simplifying our products for our target markets. We are primarily a mass market bank and our philosophy and ethos differs from the larger established retail banks, which focus on affluent customers and maximising shareholder returns. In short, the Postbank will be the people’s bank, an affordable developmental bank focusing on the marginalised and the unbanked. I thank you.
Mr C MACKENZIE
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr C MACKENZIE: House Chairperson, the collapse of African Bank due to reckless lending and adverse risk management created havoc in financial markets, with all South Africa’s biggest banks suffering downgrades as a result. This was the latest in a line of failed banks, including Saambou and Regal, where billions were lost. We have the Special Investigating Unit and the Public Protector’s investigations into allegations of corruption and maladministration. We have chaotic labour relations, including this last strike, which is the fifth and the longest in the SA Post Office since 2011. We have the fact that the Post Office consistently fails to deliver a profit for its shareholders. To give some comfort to the South African taxpayer and to reassure financial markets once the corporatisation of the Postbank is completed, what steps will the Minister take to ensure that this entity will not go the same way as other failed banks and cost investors and taxpayers billions more?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: What we are currently doing with the Postbank, because we are working on licence with the Reserve Bank, is that the people who will be leading this institution are currently undergoing a vetting process to ensure that they are properly qualified to lead such an agency. I fully agree with Mr MacKenzie that even commercial banks like African Bank have the problem that they can collapse. However, we are structuring the Postbank to focus not just on profit maximisation but on the developmental aspect. We are ensuring that we deal with a segment that has been ignored for so long: the poor and the rural people who remain unbanked and the small businesses that remain with no access to finance. In addition, we want other development banks, for example the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, to use the infrastructure of the Postbank for their lending - once it is licensed.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, the Postbank, though aimed at people with a lower living standard, seems to contextualise itself within mainstream capitalist banking, whose aim really is to profit the bank at the expense of the debtor. Is there any intention from government to go the social banking route, as was championed in Indonesia by Muhammad Yunus, or perhaps any other form of social banking, where the aim is to profit the debtor at the expense of the bank? That is empowerment; that is radical. If there is no intention from government to do that, could the Minister please tell us why? Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: I have just said that the Postbank, because it is focused on the poor, the unbanked, will differ from the current commercial banks because we want it to be most affordable and not focused on profit maximisation. It will remain a development bank; a people’s bank of South Africa. That is how it is being positioned and where we stand today. Thank you.
Ms D R TSOTETSI
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Ms D R TSOTETSI: Chairperson, Minister, we have seen what happened to African Bank. In light of that, what has been put in place to ensure that the same does not happen to Postbank? Can the Minister explain why Postbank is so important while there are banks servicing society and what are the chances of its survival?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: As I have said, we are trying to differentiate the bank. In our application, we are trying to make sure that we meet all the conditions set by the Reserve Bank. That is why I said the directors of Postbank are currently being vetted. Currently, there is a process of trying to separate the assets of the Postbank from those of the SA Post Office, SAPO. There is a process of ensuring that the holding company, which is SAPO, have proper leadership and that is what I have dealt with in the earlier questions.
A culture of saving is very important and we have to encourage our people – young and old, including the EFF - that they must not just spend money but save for the future. [Interjections.] A culture of saving is critical because, as we know, saving in South Africa remains at a low level. But we also want the Postbank to be a lending bank. Where we come from, in the rural areas, people do not have access to these banking services, particularly the small business sector and the farming sector. They must have access to finance so that their projects can also grow and enter into the mainstream of the economy. Thank you very much.
Mrs M R SHINN
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mrs M R SHINN: Minister, when the formation of Postbank was debated two years ago, there was widespread concern, especially from the financial sector, that it will become the preferred bank of government and skew the competitive landscape. This will give Postbank a major client with which to establish itself. There was talk that government departments would be pressured into paying their staff’s salaries into Postbank accounts, which they will first have to open. At the time the Department of Public Service and Administration said that if the changes to the Public Service payroll process were to be made, these changes would be facilitated by National Treasury and an appropriate policy would be developed. Minister, what discussions are under way in the governing department or with National Treasury to formulate a new policy that would make Postbank the bank of first choice for government business and the pay point for Public Service salaries?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: I do not know of any government policy that says we must only use private banks for payment of public servants. The government will continue to use all other banks, including the Postbank, for its services and it will depend on what they offer to government. That is all I can say at the moment. All we are doing is trying to develop a bank that will have most of the facilities of other banks but focuses on the unbanked segment of the. In principle there is nothing wrong for any government department to use Postbank, when the bank has a licence. It will compete with other banks in that market segment. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. We now move to … [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, I would like to address you on Rule 109(3), in relation to the substitute that was sent to the House today by the Department of Trade and Industry. We did not get to hear the replies because there was some confusion about holding over the questions. I want to make the point that only 50% of the Ministers’ questions were prioritised in the House today. In fact, had the Deputy Minister of Economic Development answered questions on behalf of the Minister and Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry, it would have been outside the bounds of the Rules, which says, “the Deputy Minister concerned or another Cabinet member”. Section 91 of the Constitution is very clear on who constitutes the Cabinet. Deputy Ministers are not Cabinet members. I would just ask that the Presiding Officers urge the Ministers, perhaps through the leader of government business or the parliamentary councillor, to ensure that we have them present in the House when questions are put to them. This should be prioritised because of the limited opportunity we have to engage Ministers. Secondly, Deputy Ministers outside of other Ministries should not be sent here to answer. That is outside the bounds of the Rules. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Steenhuisen, thank you very much. I have noted your concern but you heard the ruling I made on Question 268. Those matters will be discussed tomorrow in the Programming Committee, but Ministers were here, save for the few for whom we gave reasons for their absence. We now move on to the Notices of Motion. Does any member wish to give a Notice of Motion?
NOTICES OF MOTION
QUESTION 227
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NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms J D KILLIAN: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House discusses the financial impact of declining government subsidies and, on the other hand, expanding universal service obligations on the sustainability of the SA Post Office within a highly competitive post environment.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA
Mrs J D KILIAN
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Mr J A MNGXITAMA: House Chair, I rise on behalf of the EFF ... [Interjections.] She has asked me to speak on her behalf ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Mngxitama?
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: I am sorry, Chair. She has asked me to speak on her behalf.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Mngxitama, you can go ahead.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the matter of land and agrarian transformation. We have a crisis in land redistribution and we need to come to this House and deal with this matter.
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Mr J A MNGXITAMA
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Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DA ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon Mngxitama, take your seat, please! Hon Mngxitama, can you please take your seat and not converse across the chamber with other members. There is a member on the platform who is already moving his motion.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-
- debates the role that President Jacob Zuma has played in the continued slowing down of the economy;
- considers the gloomy growth forecast of 1,4% and the President’s inability to co-ordinate between his various ministries; and
- discuss the actions required to create an enabling environment for South Africa’s economy as envisaged in the NDP.
Mr K P SITHOLE
Mr D W MACPHERSON
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Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
The House-
- debates the current extremely poor living conditions of hundreds of thousands of South Africans at our various hostels and residents throughout the country;
- notes that these people are living with little access to basic services such as water and electricity and are plagued by continuous crime;
- further notes that urgent state intervention is required in all areas but particularly in areas such as Mamelodi West, Thokoza, Alexandra, Khwesini, Benoni and Glebelands.
Ms D Z RANTHO
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Mr K P SITHOLE
Ms D Z RANTHO: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
The House debates Operation Phakisa.
Ms D CARTER
Ms D Z RANTHO
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Ms D CARTER: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the Cope:
That the House debates the inequity of cellular data providers in South Africa charging those who do not have cellphone contracts in excess of R2 per megabyte, which affects every South African, especially the youth and the poor.
Prof KHUBISA
Ms D CARTER
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Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House deliberates on the performance of state entities in our country.
Ms V VAN DYK
Prof N M KHUBISA
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Ms VAN DYK: Madam House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DA:
The House debates the long-term impact of dysfunctional waste water treatment plants and sewage spills into our rivers and how this impacts on the deteriorating water quality in South Africa.
Mr B A RADEBE
Ms V VAN DYK
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Mr B A RADEBE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the state of roads and of the rail network in South Africa.
Ms L N MJOBO
Mr B A RADEBE
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Ms L N MJOBO: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the measures geared at encouraging reinvestment in the productive sector of the domestic economy.
Ms D ROBINSON
Ms L N MJOBO
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Ms D ROBINSON: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the shockingly poor state of the maintenance courts and the suffering this causes for thousands of mothers and their children.
Mr C DKEKANA
Ms D ROBINSON
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Mr C D KEKANA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
The House debates the support for the already existing co-operative bank, which is democratically controlled and owned by its members.
Mrs C DUDLEY
Mr C D KEKANA
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Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House debates concerns with regard to safety risks associated with boxing and other sports where blows to the head are accepted practice and possible regulatory measures necessary to protect the lives of those participating.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mrs C DUDLEY
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Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the ability of postsecondary education and training institutions to absorb and equip all students who come from secondary schooling with education that is directly linked to community service and industry.
Mr S G MMUSI
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
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Mr S G MMUSI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates measures to deal with and combat the erosion of the tax base through practices like profit shifting and transfer pricing.
Mr Z S MAKHUBELA
Mr S G MMUSI
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Mr Z S MAKHUBELA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates ways to counter the increase in the incidence of contact crime affecting women, children and the elderly, especially in rural communities.
Ms E N LOUW
Mr Z S MAKHUBELA
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Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the negative impact of nuclear energy on our environment.
Ms M P MMOLA
Ms E N LOUW
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Ms M P MMOLA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC
That the House debates the role played by Thusong service centres in benefitting citizens by giving them access to services such as ID books and birth certificates.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
Ms M P MMOLA
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Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates measures to mobilise the taxi industry to submit old taxis for scrapping.
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
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Ms A MATSHOBENI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House notes the death of female boxer Phindile Mwelase ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, we are busy with notices of motion.
Ms A MATSHOBENI: My apologies, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, if a member has made a mistake, let us acknowledge that as a mistake. Hon members of the EFF at the back, please do not engage in a discussion. We have already clarified that a mistake was made. So, let us proceed.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
NOTICES OF MOTION
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DEATH OF MICHAEL SATA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes that yesterday, Tuesday, 28 October 2014, Zambian president Michael Sata died in King Edward VII Hospital in London, where he had been receiving treatment for an undisclosed illness;
- further notes that the 77-year-old Sata, who once worked as a railway porter in London, has been in office since September 2011, after winning a tight presidential race against the then incumbent Rupiah Banda;
- recalls that Sata left Zambia for medical treatment on 19 October, accompanied by his wife and family;
- further recalls that in his absence, acting president Edgar Lungu had to lead celebrations to mark the landlocked nation’s 50th anniversary of independence from Britain;
- acknowledges that concerns over Sata’s health had been mounting in the country since June, when he disappeared from the public eye without explanation and was then reported to be receiving medical treatment in Israel; and
- conveys its condolences to his family and to all the people of Zambia.
Agreed to.
Mr M WATERS
Mr B A RADEBE
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DR ADRIAN SAVILLE WINS CEEMAN CHAMPIONSHIP AWARD
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M WATERS: I hereby move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-
- notes that South African Adrian Saville was awarded the 2014 CEEMAN Championship Teaching Award, which recognises outstanding achievements by an individual in teaching;
- further notes that CEEMAN is a global network for management development institutions with more than 210 institutional and individual members from over 50 countries in Europe, North America, Latin America, Africa and Asia;
- also notes that the CEEMAN Awards were established in 2010 to recognise and celebrate outstanding individual achievements in teaching, research, institutional management and responsible management education;
- acknowledges that Saville teaches in the fields of macroeconomics, investment finance and competitive strategy;
- further acknowledges that Saville was awarded this prestigious award demonstrates that South African educator’s research in teachers can indeed ensure that all times we compete with the best in the world; and
- congratulates Adrian Saville on this remarkable achievement and wishes him well in his future endeavors.
Agreed to.
Mr N SINGH
Mr M WATERS
|
DEATH OF DEPUTY JUDGE PRESIDENT OF WESTERN CAPE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N SINGH: Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the House-
- extends its sincere condolences to the family and colleagues of former Western Cape Deputy Judge President, Justice Hannes Fagan, who passed away at his Cape Town home yesterday;
- recognises the immense contribution that Judge Fagan made to the judiciary and law in general in South Africa since he first began practicing law as an advocate in 1952;
- commends his tenure as Western Cape Deputy Judge President and Inspecting Judge of Prisons; and
- salutes his pioneering work in prison reform initiatives.
Agreed to.
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mr N SINGH
|
DEATH OF PHINDILE MWELASE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Chair, on behalf of the EFF I hereby move without notice:
That the House-
- notes the death of female boxer Phindile Mwelase, who died on Saturday, 25 October, after failing to emerge from a two-week-long coma;
- notes that Phindile, a welterweight boxer, was 31 when she died at the Steve Biko Academic Hospital;
- acknowledges Mwelase’s outstanding participation as a female boxer; and
- conveys condolences to her family and loved ones.
Agreed to.
Ms D Z RANTHO
Ms A MATSHOBENI
|
APPOINTMENT OF GEN RIAH PHIYEGA AS CHAIRPERSON OF SARPCCO
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D Z RANTHO: Chair, I move without notice:
That the House-
notes that our police commissioner, Gen Riah Phiyega, has been appointed chairperson of the Southern African Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation on Wednesday, 22 October 2014, at Emperor’s Palace in Kempton Park; …
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members of the DA, please be quiet. Hon member, continue with your motion.
Ms D Z RANTHO:
(2) recalls that Gen Phiyega took over the reins of the Southern African Development Community region from Namibia’s Lieutenant-General Sebastian Ndeithunga;
(3) further recalls that she is the first ever woman chairperson to lead that organisation;
(4) acknowledges the challenges she is facing in engaging with member countries to co-operate on issues such as cross-border operations, joint training, the harmonisation of legislation and the sharing of good practices;
- believes that she will shoulder the task of her new office and bring about a reduction in crime in the region;
- congratulates her on the new appointment, wishes her success and calls on all SADC member states to give her their unwavering support in her endeavours to implement mechanisms to fight crime in the region.
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The objection is noted and the motion is not carried.
Ms J D KILLIAN: Chair, I think it was quite audible when the hon Mbatha shouted that Gen Piyega was a murderer. I do not think it is appropriate. Can you please ask him to withdraw that remark?
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, I have noted the issue raised by hon Killian. On advice from the Table, the member referred to is not a member of this House and therefore … [Interjections.] Hon member, allow me to finish my ruling. [Interjections.] I have indicated that I have noted the matter as raised by hon Killian. Noting that Gen Phiyega is not a member of the House, it does not apply to her. However, members are cautioned to watch the language they use.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF OPPOSITION
Ms D Z RANTHO
|
CONGRATULATIONS TO JOY SUMMERS AND SUSAN COMRIE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes that two South African journalists, Joy Summers and Susan Comrie, have been awarded the GE Energy and Infrastructure Award at the 2014 CNN MultiChoice African Journalist Awards ceremony held in Dar es Salaam on Saturday, 18 October 2014;
- further notes that Summers and Comrie, who work for M-Net’s Carte Blanche, shared the award for their work titled Game of Geysers, Part 1 and 2;
- acknowledges that they were competing with entries from 38 countries spanning the continent;
- recognises the important work that these two journalists have done in the field of energy and infrastructure reporting on the African continent; and
- congratulates Joy Summers and Susan Comrie on this significant award and wishes them well in their future endeavours.
Agreed to.
Ms N V NQWENISO
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
|
CONGRATULATIONS TO PRESIDENT EVO MORALES ON HIS RE-ELECTION
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N V NQWENISO: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes that the present leader and first indigenous president of Bolivia, Evo Morales, was successfully re-elected to lead his nation by the revolutionary people of Bolivia;
- further notes that President Morales belongs to a new generation of Latin-American leaders who have abandoned the notion that there is no alternative to capitalism;
- recognises that Evo Morales has led the successful reconstruction of the Bolivian economy and society through radical measures, including land redistribution, the nationalisation of strategic sectors of the economy and raising the royalties payable by mining houses;
- further notes that even pro-capitalist global institutions like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the United Nations have been overwhelmed by the positive evidence of social development driven by the socialist programme of Evo Morales;
- observes that the Bolivian economy has been realising high growth consistently driven not by profits but rather by a redistributive economic policy;
- congratulates President Evo Morales on his re-election and encourages him to move further towards socialism, which puts people first.
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The objection is noted and the motion is not carried.
Ms S V KALYAN
Ms N V NQWENISO
|
Congratulations to PROF ABDOOL KARIM on WORLD ACADEMY OF SCIENCES award
(Draft Resolution)
Ms S V KALYAN: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes that the distinguished academic and renowned HIV researcher, Prof Quarraisha Abdool Karim, was awarded the 2014 World Academy of Sciences-Lenovo prize on 26 October 2014 in Muscat;
- further notes that this prestigious international award was bestowed on Prof Abdool Karim for her groundbreaking research on HIV prevention in women;
- acknowledges that she has an exemplary record of research into HIV and tuberculosis and has trained hundreds of young African scientists to assist with research in these specific health issues;
- further acknowledges that this international award follows two other medals that Prof Abdool Karim received from the Academy of Science of SA and the Medical Research Council of SA; and
- congratulates Prof Abdool Karim on this remarkable achievement and thanks her for her continued efforts in combating the HIV/Aids epidemic.
Agreed to.
Mr B D JOSEPH
|
Ms S V KALYAN
SPAIN’S BRUTAL TREATMENT OF REFUGEES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B D JOSEPH: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes the brutal methods that Spain employs to keep out undesired African refugees between Spain and Morocco, Greece and Turkey, Hungary and Sierra Leone;
- further notes that Spain’s coast guards have brutally intercepted nearly 1 200 migrants in the Straits of Gibraltar as they were trying to cross into European territory from North Africa;
- condemns the racist and brutal means that Europeans employ to keep away African migrants.
[Applause.]
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The objection is noted and the motion is not carried.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr B D JOSEPH
|
AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS MUST FIND WAYS TO COMBAT EBOLA VIRUS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes that the Ebola virus continues to kill, especially in North Africa;
- further notes that at least 10 141 cases and at least 4 922 deaths have been reported, according to the World Health Organisation;
- encourages all heads of African states to have an emergency summit to put together solutions and resources to face this challenge;
- further encourages all African governments to find ways to have a comprehensive and co-ordinated approach to combating Ebola and to make it a key priority on their agendas.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Are there any objections to the motion? [Interjections.] Hon member, are you objecting?
Ms A STEYN: No, Chair, I rise on a point of clarity: The hon member said North Africa. I just wanted to check if that is what the member meant.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, is that what you said? Did you mean North Africa or West Africa?
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: My apologies, I meant West Africa. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, is there any objection to the motion?
Ms A STEYN: Chair, on that point we would object because I do not think we must talk about that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): There has been an objection to the motion, so the motion falls away. Is there any member who wishes to give a motion without notice? [Interjections.] Order! I take it that no member wishes to move a further motion without notice.
Hon members, it has been brought to my attention that it is not the National Assembly Programme Committee, the NAPC, that is meeting tomorrow morning, as I indicated earlier on, but rather the Joint Programming Committee. Given that the points of order that were raised relate to National Assembly matters and not to joint business, the issues touched on will be discussed at the meeting of the NAPC in the coming week. I just wanted to clarify that the NAPC was not meeting tomorrow, but rather the Joint Programming Committee.
Debate concluded.
The House adjourned at 17:30.
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