Hansard: NCOP: Debate on Provincial Week (9 – 12 September) report: “Together making service delivery work for our people”; Statement by Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Hon. S Zokwana - National norms and standards for damage caused by animals in South Africa

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 18 Nov 2014


No summary available.




Tuesday, 18 November 2014                                         Take: 123









The Council met at 14:03.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.














Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 123











(Draft Resolution)


Mr W F FABER: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, members! Please proceed.


Mr W F FABER: Can I proceed?




Mr W F FABER: Thank you, Chair. I continue:


  1. takes note of the victories our national teams, Bafana Bafana and the Springboks, this past weekend;


  1. further notes that the Springboks beat the English Roses at Twickenham, their home ground, to show that they will be one of the main contenders for next year’s Rugby World Cup in England;


  1. also notes that the Bafana Bafana are on their way to qualifying for the Africa Cup of Nations; and


  1. wishes Bafana Bafana good luck for the upcoming game against Nigeria. Go, Bafana Bafana! Go!


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.














Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 123










(Draft Resolution)


Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. takes note of the suspension of the Provincial Head of the Hawks in Mpumalanga, Major General Simon Mapyane;


  1. notes that in August 2013 the DA wrote to the National Commissioner of Police, Riah Phiyega, requesting her to suspend Mapyane after fraud and corruption charges were laid against him;


  1. further notes that Phiyega refused to act;


  1. also notes that Major General Mapyane was suspended after the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union and Hawks members increased pressure on Phiyega to act;


  1. acknowledges that it is truly staggering that the National Commissioner of Police took 17 months to act;


  1. also acknowledges that the suspension of Mapyane is a victory for both the residents of Mpumalanga and the credibility of the Hawks in Mpumalanga; and


  1. finally acknowledges that the DA will closely monitor this case to ensure that there is no political meddling in this investigation.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was a notice of motion. Hon Nzimande, you had your hand up.


Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chair, I thought you were guiding us into our giving notice of motions. I think members are confusing notices of motion and motions without notice. The two members have moved motions without notice. My understanding is that there is different way of finalising motions without notice. Thank you, Chair.




Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I must say that my colleague is one hundred per cent correct, but I was so excited about the Bafana Bafana! [Laughter.] So I will retract that and will make it a motion without notice, if you do not mind.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, let me help out, because I was also caught. Is there any member who wishes to disagree with the motion without notice on Bafana Bafana? [Interjections.] There is not, so we do not have to redo it. It is agreed to.


Hon Essack, your motion without notice contains a little more to chew on, so I am going to allow it to be moved again.


I have made a list of the hands that have gone up. I have the hon Prins, the hon Ximbi, the hon Chetty and the hon Zwane. Are these hands for notices of motion? [Interjections.] These are for notices of motion and that is what I am dealing with. I also have the hands of hon Essack and hon Khawula.










Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 123










Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the IFP:


That the Council—


  1. debates the alleged acts of sabotage and/or poor management of the National School Nutrition Programme in some provinces in the country;


  1. notes that it has been reported that through these acts children in some provinces have had to be hospitalised; and


  1. further notes that in other provinces service providers are either not timeously paid, or not paid at all, resulting in their abandoning their contracts, which is of grave concern.






Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 123









Mr F ESSACK: Thank you again for the opportunity, hon Chairperson. I would like to confirm that I am now giving notice of a motion.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Notice of a motion?


Mr F ESSACK: Right.


Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the Council—


  1. notes that the Mpumalanga Education Department has lost 38 631 learners from our schooling system in the space of two years, as 45 954 Grade 12 learners sit to write this year’s final year matric exams – the lowest number of matriculants writing the Grade 12 exams in our province in the last five years;


  1. also notes that this alarming dropout rate should be a cause for concern to all because, by implication, 38 631 learners are now facing a bleak future, seeing that with no Senior Certificate these learners are rendered highly unemployable, and are unable to access the formal job market or tertiary institutions;


  1. further notes that, sadly, it is also a fact that not all learners writing their Grade 12 examinations will pass this year and, when this is added to the 38 631 lost learners, as many as more than 40 000 unemployed youth will enter 2015 with no school qualification and little prospect of finding a means of survival;


  1. notes, moreover, that 20 years into democracy it is essential for the ANC government to realise that ... [Time expired.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please try to make sure that a motion without notice is moved within 90 seconds - that is one and half minutes. But your motion, hon member, will be printed in full. Thank you.









Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 123









Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:


That the Council—


  1. notes that the 650 000-member strong SA Tamil Federation, SATF, met with the ANC at Luthuli House in Johannesburg on 5 November 2014;


  1. further notes that the SATF delegation, led by its President Karthigasen Moothsamy, made it abundantly clear that the Tamil community was here to stay and to be part of the solution in South Africa, in order to build a strong state and a South African nation comprised of Africans, Coloureds, Indians and Whites.







Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 124









Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the EFF:


That the Council—


(1)      debates the biased manner in which the Chief Whip’s office handles NCOP matters;


(2)      notes in particular the manner in which her office deliberately and openly sabotaged the EFF in debating the President’s address to the NCOP;


(3)      also notes that the EFF was deliberately barred from debating because of a name change, when the office of the Chief Whip was informed of such a change well in time;


(4)      further notes that the Chief Whip’s mandate to exercise fairness was compromised on that day and the EFF is of the firm view that the motive was political;


(5)      also notes that the presiding officers of the NCOP are, in general, increasingly provoking the EFF in a manner which shows their bias; and


(6)      finally notes that the EFF in the NCOP has been patient with this kind of behaviour, but it will not be tolerating it going forward.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, that concludes the notices of motion.


We will proceed to allow members to move motions without notice. I now call upon the hon Prins to begin. I would like to take this row first. They are the hon Prins, the hon Ximbi, the hon Motlashuping, and the hon Nthebe. We will take the hon members in that order please.









Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125











(Draft Resolution)


Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes that a 29-year-old woman was sexually molested by 10 young boys in Athlone two weeks ago;


  1. further notes that 7 of the 10 boys, aged between 11 and 15 years, were arrested after the woman was able to point them out;


  1. requests the justice system to defend women against all forms of abuse; and


  1. requests fathers to play their role of being correct role models for their sons.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125









(Draft Resolution)


Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes that on Thursday, 13 November 2014, four armed men were arrested by police in Khayelitsha;


  1. further notes that the men were armed with illegal arms and were on their way to commit business robbery; and


  1. congratulates the police on the good work, and hopes that this will assist in stopping the robbery of businesses and crime in general.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125











(Draft Resolution)


Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes that an army dentist, Dr Jan Van Tonder, has been charged with viciously beating a gardener, Mr Muhammed Makungwa with a sjambok;


  1. further notes that Van Tonder could also be charged with attempted murder after Makungwa said that he had tried to run him over with his car;


  1. further notes that according to the prosecutor in the Wynberg Magistrate’s Court, Mr Nathan Johnson, this is one of about 10 recent race-related attacks in the Cape Town suburbs; and


  1. therefore calls on the justice system to defend black employees from the hands of these racists, and requests the SA National Defence Force to take steps against Van Tonder.


There has been an objection to the motion. It is not agreed to.



















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125








(Draft Resolution)


Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council –


  1. notes that the Springboks defeated a strong English team in their fortress at Twickenham, bouncing back after the defeat in their previous match;


  1. further notes that the South African cricket team won their match in Australia, which put them in a good position for the one-day series; and


  1. therefore congratulates the South African teams in general.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125










(Draft Resolution)


Ms G M MANOPOLE: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes that chaos erupted at the EFF Northern Cape conference on Sunday afternoon as members armed with bricks and pangas tore into each other, trashing the venue and leaving a trial of blood;


  1. also notes that the conference to elect the provincial leadership spiralled out of control after an apparent jostling for the leadership position between the incumbent Aubrey Baartman and Ronald Februarie;


  1. further notes that a charge of assault was laid with the police following an apparent incident between Baartman and Februarie; and


  1. therefore reminds the EFF that they should concentrate on resolving their internal problems, which may lead to loss of life, and allow democracy to take its course.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Are there any objections to the motion?




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is not objected to. I am on this row, hon members. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]


Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon member objects after the fact, after we have dealt with the motion. Hon Mtileni, I asked the question and there was no objection.


Mr V E MTILENI: I stand to object. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The belated objection is noted, members, but please be on the alert so as not to allow the assent to the motion before you object.


I am on this row. Is there any member wanting to move a motion? Okay. I have the hon Khawula, hon Mtileni, hon Chetty, hon Singh, hon Zwane, and hon Dikgale on my list, and in that order please.



















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125










(Draft Resolution)


Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes with appreciation the sterling and awesome performance of Bafana Bafana in their 2015 Africa Cup of Nations qualifying games;


  1. further notes that even before the last qualification game is played in Nigeria tomorrow, Bafana Bafana have already booked their place in Afcon 2015, which will be held in Equatorial Guinea, and are guaranteed to finish top of their group;


  1. commends Bafana Bafana as a bunch of winners;


  1. acknowledges and congratulates the team coach, Shakes Mashaba and his technical team for a job well done; and


  1. congratulates Bafana Bafana on a job well done, and acknowledges that beating Nigeria tomorrow will be a wonderful bonus for the team’s performance in the qualifying games.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I will allow the motion, although there was a part in connection with Bafana Bafana in two other motions, but this one concentrates only on Bafana Bafana.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.














Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125












(Draft Resolution)


Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes that the EFF congratulates the party in the Gauteng, Northern Cape, Mpumalanga and Limpopo provinces for successfully hosting their people’s provincial assemblies;


  1. further notes that in each of the provinces the EFF branches are in good standing, gathered for the first time since the formation of the EFF to deliberate on the state of the organisation and the political conditions faced by the people of these regions;


  1. acknowledges that this phenomenon of democratic practice in the new parties is not common practice in South Africa, in that most of these new parties soon descend into autocratic one-man government systems;


  1. further acknowledges that the EFF has attracted disciplined cadres from across the length and breadth of our country, who are committed to just one idea and that is the economic emancipation of our people; and


  1. accepts that the South African political landscape will never be the same again.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber, you are on the floor. Do you wish to speak on this motion?


Mr W F FABER: I definitely want to object to this motion, but I also want to know if the hon member will take a question, because I think he is a bit confused.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, his time has expired. There is an objection to the last motion and the objection is supported.






Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 125











(Draft Resolution)


Mr M CHETTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. in the light of our activism against the abuse of women and children, takes note of the fracas that took place in the National Assembly on Thursday, 13 November 2014;


  1. further notes that the manhandling of women by the SA Police Service was reminiscent of the dark days of apartheid;


  1. condemns the Speaker for allowing the SAPS to abuse women, especially during our countrywide activism campaign in regard to women and children; and


  1. finally notes that before the Speaker, the hon Baleka Mbete, abuses her powers and calls in the SAPS for the third time, and before these skirmishes result in a fatality, the ANC should remove Ms Baleka Mbete, the Chairperson of the ANC, as the Speaker of Parliament.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is an objection to the motion and it is not agreed to.


Hon Chetty, for future reference, it is very difficult for a member of a House to condemn a member of a different House.














Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126











(Draft Resolution)


Mr A SINGH: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—


  1. notes that November has been declared diabetes month;


  1. also notes that 1,2 million South Africans suffer from diabetes and are undiagnosed;


  1. further notes that as a diabetic person who is tested and taking medication I am able to achieve a lot more; and


  1. therefore requests people to change with a simple finger prick test this month, and be helped with the silent killer.


I urge all members of this House to set the example in this regard.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

























Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126










(Draft Resolution)


Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes and condemns the continuous sad loss of life through reckless driving, a case in hand being the recent death of six people in KwaZulu-Natal;


  1. further notes that this loss of life could have been prevented if all drivers had committed themselves to obeying the rules of the road;


  1. therefore resolves to encourage the different provincial traffic departments and law enforcement agencies at the level of local government to tighten up their operations in a bid to combat such accidents, given that it is that period of the year where people are expected to crisscross the country for their summer holidays.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.























Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126











(Draft Resolution)


Ms M C DIKGALE: Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes that President Zuma has successfully intervened in the prolonged processing of the remains of the deceased South Africans in Nigeria;


  1. salutes and thanks the President for his successful intervention, and hopes the remaining bodies will be repatriated soon;


  1. further notes that the delayed repatriation of the deceased remains has made the pain and is still making the pain and agony of the bereaved families unbearable and traumatic;


  1. appreciates the role of the President’s Special Envoy, Minister Jeff Radebe, and the Inter-Ministerial Committee in bringing to an end the delay of over two months; and


  1. extends its heartfelt condolences to all the families and trusts that our government will do everything possible to repatriate the remaining victims.


May their souls rest in peace.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion?


Mr W F FABER: The President took two months.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion?


Mr V E MTILENI: Yes, I object. The reason is the fact that it took so long. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I didn’t ask for ... [Laughter.] Hon members ...


Mr V E MTILENI: Three months! Almost three months.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, please take you seat! I didn’t ask for reasons. I just asked to whether there was an objection to the motion. The motion has been objected to and is not agreed to.























Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126











(Draft Resolution)


Mr E R MAKUE: Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes and condemns the inconvenience and violence caused and demonstrated by taxi drivers during their strike in Johannesburg on 17 November 2014;


  1. also notes that it was not only commuters and students that were victimised, but motorists were also abused, and that that shows the level of disregard of other people’s human rights;


  1. further notes that it should be taken into account that transport is a crucial engine for economic growth and social development for the country; and


  1. therefore calls for all the relevant and affected stakeholders to sit down to try to find some amicable consensus on the issues.


Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126











(Draft Resolution)


Mr S TSHABALALA (Gauteng): Hon Chair, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes that on 14 November 2014 a five-year-old boy, Sibusiso Ndaba, fell into a manhole in Sebokeng, Polokong, and that the emergency services were called but never arrived;


  1. further notes that calls to the Mayor of Sedibeng District Municipality and MMCs were fruitless, as the response was that there was no manpower;


  1. also notes that calls to Provincial Disaster Management and the Gauteng MEC for corporate governance, traditional affairs and human settlements enjoyed no success and that no rescue team arrived at the scene;


  1. notes that after almost 24 hours the child’s body was found by a subcontractor who came to assist;


  1. notes that it is a tragedy that such a young child had to lose his life because of government’s poor response;


  1. passes on its deepest, sincerest condolences to the family and loved ones of Sibusiso Ndaba;


  1. requests an investigation into the emergency response capabilities of Emfuleni Local Municipality and Sedibeng District Municipality; and


  1. calls on the Gauteng MEC for corporate governance, traditional affairs and human settlements, Jacob Mamabolo, to report to this House the reasons behind the provincial government failure to respond to the repeated requests for assistance.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, is there an objection to this motion? [Interjections.] There is an objection and it is thus not agreed to.





Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126










(Draft Resolution)


Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes with concern and condemns the land grabbing that has occurred in Nellmapius, east of Pretoria;


  1. also notes that the land has been earmarked for low-cost housing, as it is in our interests that an end is put to homelessness in our communities, and that that is the programme that our housing department is pursuing;


  1. further notes that this land grab is a bid to destabilise our communities and dislodge our government from its service delivery programmes;


  1. notes, moreover, that there is confusion and our people’s emotions are being played upon by the EFF, which utters empty rhetoric that promotes anarchy and a disregard for our Constitution, and has no vision for our nation; and


  1. therefore strongly condemns such actions and tendencies with the contempt they deserve.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to this motion? [Interjections.] There is an objection, hon members.














Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126











(Draft resolution)


Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes that the Department of Justice and Correctional Services is once again tightening the noose around child maintenance defaulters owing about R5,3 million;


  1. also notes that 1 639 defaulters with outstanding warrants for arrest in the Western Cape alone will be traced during Operation Isondlo;


  1. further notes that the annual defaulter tracing campaign was launched yesterday as part of the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children; and


  1. therefore implores the defaulting fathers to take responsibility and to pay for the maintenance of their children or face the prospect of going to prison.



Motion agreed in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126












(Draft Resolution)


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. calls for the Minister of Transport to note that no roads maintenance tenders have been awarded in the Eastern Cape;


  1. notes that, according to the Minister of Tourism, funding will be made available for the eight heritage sites in respect of signage and road maintenance;


  1. also notes that the funding for the Baviaanskloof Mega Reserve must be made available by the Eastern Cape provincial department of roads and public works, yet there is no service delivery agreement for the Baviaanskloof Mega Reserve road maintenance;


  1. calls on the Minister of Transport for an urgent intervention in the Eastern Cape to ensure that the road maintenance contracts are finalised, because there are only three working months left before the end of this financial year; and


  1. calls for the contract for the Baviaanskloof Mega Reserve to be awarded once again to create the much needed labour-intensive jobs in this region, where the roads affect the economic contribution to tourism and poverty alleviation.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Are there any objections to this motion? [Interjections.] There are objections and the motion is not agreed to.













Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 126











(Draft Resolution)


Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, I move without notice:


     That the Council—


  1. notes that on the weekend of 8 November 2014, according to the Daily Dispatch of 10 November, a mother of four from one of the villages near King Williams Town had a family occasion;


  1. also notes that the women was raped and killed and her body was loaded onto a wheelbarrow and hidden;


  1. further notes that the body was found and a suspect was arrested;


  1. commends the SA Police Service for a speedy arrest; and


  1. calls on the court not to grant the suspect bail.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Are there any objections to this motion? [Interjections.] There are objections and therefore the motion is not agreed to.


Hon members, all the motions that were objected to will now become notices of motion, which means members are free in the future to pick up on these motions and to debate them further.


We have exhausted our motions for today, both those with notice and those without. We therefore wish to move on.


Members, I have received a request that hon Minister Zokwana be allowed to make a statement on: “National norms and standards for damage-causing animals in South Africa”. I therefore now call on the hon Minister to address the House.










Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 127












The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson of the NCOP, I would like to present the apologies of the Deputy Minister, who is currently in the other House. Hon members, members of the executive councils in various provinces, distinguished guests, members of Salga, and ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Ndiyabulisa ngale mva kwemini. [I greet you this afternoon.] Dumelang. [Good afternoon.] Ndi matsheloni. [Good morning.] Dobro utro.


Chairperson, it will be recalled that the mandate that has been bestowed on the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries by the sectors we represent is to ensure that the issues that are dealt with are, among others, the topic under consideration. This mandate is to ensure that our department fulfils its responsibility to provide household food security to all South Africans, that we create jobs, and that we increase our sector’s contribution to the gross domestic product.


Food security is a constitutional mandate. The government of the ANC has committed itself to ensuring that all citizens, regardless of where they live, are food secure.


As we commemorated World Food Day in Vhembe, Limpopo, on 16 October 2014 we were struck by the level of food insecurity that still exists in South Africa. From rural areas to urban dwellings, the effects of unemployment and high food costs are trapping citizens in a life of poverty and disempowerment.


Chairperson, we are encouraged by the agriculture, forestry and fisheries sector’s commitment to ensuring food security and creating gainful employment opportunities for members of our society. However, in our quest to address food security we are faced by a number of challenges, including damage-causing animals.


The Norms and Standards for Damage-Causing Animals document falls under the Department of Environmental Affairs. Our Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries’ role is to ensure that the norms and standards are responsive to the unique environment in our sector.


These norms and standards were previously discussed with the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in 2011, and I am aware that some of the members currently present were in that portfolio committee. Today’s discussion is aimed at enriching the consultation process from our sector’s point of view.


Chairperson, damage-causing animals’ categorisation is fairly wide. Damage-causing animals include animals that prey on livestock and animals that damage crops and forestry plantations.



Abazaziyo iimfene, bayayazi ukuba imfene iyangena entsimini, ibambe isikhwebu isifake ekhwapheni, ibambe esesibini ize esiyaa sokuqala isilahle. Xa iphuma ngaphaya entsimini iphethe esinye, ishiye imbuqe emva kwayo.



Among these are carnivores and herbivores, from genets and civet cats that are sometimes a problem with poultry, to hippos and elephants that escape from secluded confinements, damaging fences, crops and orchards in the process. The damage caused by these animals affects the bottom line of business operations and, in effect, hits smallholder producers the hardest.


In livestock farming, which is an important sector in South Africa, the exposure to damage-causing animals is enormous. I was informed by the National Wool Growers Association that loss due to damage-causing animals in the livestock industry is estimated to be over R1 billion. This loss is largely in the sheep and goat, or small stock, sectors. It has been reported that this loss has also started to eclipse losses attributed to stock theft in our country. The control of damage-causing animals is therefore imperative.


Chairperson, loss of livestock due to damage-causing animals runs contrary to the objectives of the Africa Livestock Development Strategy if unattended. This strategy was discussed by Ministers responsible for livestock in Kenya last week and forms an integral part of livestock development within the region.


The forestry sector has also been affected by damage-causing animals. The losses in the forestry sector are attributed to damage by animals such as bushbuck, eland and baboons. While there has been minimal intervention by management in the forestry industry, the current level of damages dictates otherwise. It is reported that several thousand hectares of plantations, especially in Mpumalanga province, have been affected by damage by baboons, resulting in large economic losses for the timber industry.


The losses in the livestock, crop production and forestry sectors do not only have an impact on food security, but also on job creation and our endeavours to increase our sector’s contribution to the GDP. Our response to the challenges of damage-causing animals will ensure that we respond to the presidential call for agriculture to create one million jobs by 2030.


Chairperson, scientists point out that human-wildlife conflicts are a product of socioeconomic and political landscapes. These conflicts are contentious because the resources concerned have economic value and the species are often high profile, and at times legally protected. Our actions therefore have to take into consideration aspects of sustainable production which seek to balance environmental, social and economic concerns.


Speaker, clearly we need to take responsibility on this issue and continue to engage with the Department of Environmental Affairs and our sector stakeholders. This will involve finding holistic management approaches to issues emanating from damage-causing animals.


I am aware that the National Wool Growers Association has been instrumental in initiating the development of the Norms and Standards for Damage-Causing Animals. The initial draft was concluded in 2009, and at the time raised serious debate about striking a balance between favouring animal welfare and favouring production.


As previously articulated, the revised norms and standards were presented to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in 2011 for consultation. The portfolio committee raised concerns regarding certain aspects. I will be engaging the Minister of Environmental Affairs in order to deal with the concerns raised. It is, however, important to note that some of the concerns are being addressed through our technical teams.


Chairperson, the Norms and Standards for Damage-Causing Animals are grounded in various legislative pieces. The legislation includes those in the realm of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. These pieces include the Animals Protection Act; Performing Animals Protection Act; Animals Diseases Act; Conservation of Agricultural Resources Act; Meat Safety Act; Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professions Act; Animal Improvement Act; and Fertilisers, Farm Feeds, Agricultural Remedies and Stock Remedies Act.


It is therefore expected that these norms and standards will have to abide by the provisions of the relevant legislation in our sector. Admittedly, these norms and standards will have to strike a fine balance between the production, animal health, animal welfare, conservation and agricultural inputs prerequisites.


To this end, Chairperson, I would like to draw your attention to the concerns I have picked in my engagements with the South African Veterinary Council. The South African Veterinary Council is a professional body that reports to the Ministry on the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professions Act. The concerns raised pertain to the Regulations on Threatened or Protected Species, which is one of the reference legislative pieces for these norms and standards. The concerns are about the authority and issuance of permits for veterinarians to treat threatened or protected species. Again, this requires that I engage with Minister Molewa in order to address this area of concern.


Hon Chairperson, we support the minimum standards for assessing the impact of damage-causing animals. We agree that the interventions to deal with complaints dealing with damage-causing animals should be timeous and proportionate to the severity of the damage.


Farmers, producers and farm workers should be safe and feel safe. Furthermore, their livelihoods and revenue sources should also be protected. In protecting these livelihoods our interventions should, as far as possible, identify and remove damage-causing animals. We should also adapt and implement management measures to prevent damage by damage-causing animals. We prefer nonlethal methods, with lethal methods as the last resort.


The measures implemented should nonetheless be supported by science. I am aware that the former Minister consulted with the Minister of Environmental Affairs, requesting that any decision to phase out certain traps, poisons and hunting methods be held back pending a scientific evaluation of predation and predator management in South Africa.


The Departments of Environmental Affairs and of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, together with sector forums, agreed on the terms of reference for the scientific study. Both departments agreed to fund the scientific evaluation on a quid pro quo basis with the affected industries. The agreement is for the industries to meet the departments on a rand-for-rand basis. It is therefore considered prudent to allow for the scientific evaluation to be completed within the transitional provision as contained within the Norms and Standards for Damage-Causing Animals.


Chairperson, I am heartened by the recognition of most of the deterrent methods used by farmers to control damage-causing animals. Those methods that can be used without a permit include, but are not limited to: fencing, including jackal-proof fencing; kraals and other structural barriers; modern technology like cellphone collars; livestock herding and shepherding; use of guard animals such as dogs; livestock breeding planning and stock rotations; and Veldwagter motion sensing.


Animal control is not limited only to damage-causing animals. It is also about the control of animals that are being transported, as foot and mouth disease, as well as avian flu in birds, can arise. We need to engage with this to make sure that agreement is reached in this regard. If we are to have a foot and mouth disease-free market, an area where the world is trying to shun us, we need to make sure that all the people in the sectors agree that we have to make sure that we do the right things.


The request from stakeholders in the sector for support regarding jackal-proof fencing has been a topical issue. Most recently organisations such as the Red Meat Producers’ Organisation, the National Red Meat Producers’ Organisation and the Wildlife Ranching Association have voiced the need for fencing in livestock and ranching areas. My department will continue to engage with others in regard to finding resources to ensure that the much needed deterrents are in place.


Chairperson, while cognisant of the need to respond to damage-causing animals through restricted methods of control, we are concerned about the capacity to implement these proposed measures. This capacity, which will deal with the issuance of permits regarding restricted methods, requires further consultation with the Minister of Environmental Affairs.


Chairperson, we laud the inclusion of the compensatory strategy provision in the norms and standards. This strategy is, however, supported by discretionary powers. Provision 19(1) of the Draft Norms and Standards for the Management of Damage-Causing Animals in South Africa states:


Each conservation authority may develop a compensation strategy for the payment of compensation to a person who has experienced damage caused by a damage-causing animal.


It is considered plausible that such a provision should be made obligatory in order to ensure that there is uniformity in the application of the strategy in the country.


While there is consensus on the circumstances under which compensation can be considered, the reference to negligence of the producer will require further deliberation to clear any ambiguities. This can be done through a consultative process with relevant stakeholders.


In conclusion, Chairperson, my commitment is to ensure that we continue to provide sound advice and training on damage-causing animals to landowners, community members and other stakeholders. These norms and standards set a regulatory framework for proactively engaging in the control of damage-causing animals.


This can be achieved, as recent studies show that losses to predators are down to about 2% in the grain or intensive areas, and up to 4% in the extensive production areas. Therefore, we believe that we will be able to achieve the goals.


There are three critical areas that we need to pay attention to, and these are: the adaptation of farm management practices to avoid losses; the repulsion or control of predators; and the capture, documentation and promotion of best practice by means of sector-specific codes appropriate for each sector and biosystem in which livestock or game farming enterprises are located.


In the engagement with stakeholders in the sector it is evident that we cannot continue doing things the same way and expect a different result. These norms and standards and the discussions on damage-causing animals provide us with an opportunity to change course and decisively address damage-causing animals. This is what we are presenting and we believe that through interaction with all stakeholders we will be able to make sure that jackals are controlled.



Endingayaziyo ke, Sihlalo weNdlu, yeyokuba ezi zilwanyana zinemilenze emibini zenza olwazo ulawulo zona zilungiswa njani na. Ukubuyiswa kwezimilo emadodeni, ukuhlonipha imfuyo yabantu kunye nentsebenziswano ngokubanzi nabo bonke abakweli sebe kungenza eli lizwe lihlume ngokufuya izilwanyana nezolimo nokuba iindlovu nezilwanyana ezincinane nazo ziphile. Ukuzibuka kuhle, kodwa imbuqe eziyenzayo ayiloncedo kwikamva lelizwe lethu. Enkosi, ndiyabulela.

















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 128









Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, the establishment of a uniform national approach to dealing with damage-causing animals in South Africa is a necessary process. Provincial ways of dealing with this issue do not necessarily complement one other or make the establishment of a national approach any easier.


Damage-causing animals deal a major blow to the means of establishing food security, as well as protecting human lives. The loss of stock, attacks on humans, and even the reduction of agricultural grazing land have seen these animals being more aggressive in their interaction with different communities.


Subsistence farmers suffer most, as there is normally very little that the farmers can do to stop animals from moving into human areas in search of food. People living in rural areas and those living close to and in national parks are in need of protection from these animals. If there is continued inaction, communities will continue to attack and even kill these animals, as they look to protect themselves and their livestock. In doing so, they may inadvertently contribute to the possible extinction of endangered animals.


Human actions, as well, must be noted as contributors to the increase in number of damage-causing animals. Land that had previously been used by the animals in which to roam around, hunt or graze, sometimes ends up being encroached on by humans, which then reduces the amount of land that the animals can use. However, the lack of structures to assist these humans usually results in attacks on the new residents, as the animals see them as prey.


The department is in need of a standardised approach to this issue, and the political will to actually see these norms and standards developed and implemented. Public education on the norms and standards, especially in rural areas, needs to be a priority and the communities need assistance with establishing the means to protect themselves and deter these animals from causing damage to lives and property at the same time. The controlled reduction of the number of these animals must be a last resort.


In conclusion, Chairperson, ...



... Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe angazi ojakalazi nezindlovu mhlawumbe kuyofuneka ukuthi ukuchaze uma usubuya okwesibili. Kodwa bengingakucushisa ngokuthi: Hhayi ziyeke izindlovu uma zingakuthintanga nje nawe ungazithinti. [ Uhleko.] Uzohlala kahle ke mhlawumbe ungabukana nojakalazi.



But just spare the elephants. Don’t touch them. They will do nothing to you. Thank you. [Laughter.]





















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 128








Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the different norms and standards practised in the different provinces lead to ineffective management of damage-causing animals across borders and provinces. It results in misconceptions, and sometimes unacceptable practices, which are often widely criticised in the media.


It is obvious that national norms and standards are essential. Section 9 of the National Environment Management: Biodiversity Act, Act 10 of 2004, provides for the Minister of Environmental Affairs to introduce norms and standards. Currently, we only have draft norms and standards dating back from 2009-10.


In the DA-led Western Cape government, the Minister for local government, environment affairs and development planning decided that the responsible way to address this issue was to scientifically investigate the implementation of sustainable management options which are selective, humane, and legal and ecologically sound as a long-term solution.


The short-term solution was to offer farmers the legal and environmentally sustainable option of taking out Cape Nature’s hunting permit. Before 2009 no permits were required in the Western Cape for the hunting of damage-causing animals. The livestock industry was thus self-regulated. Stock and biodiversity losses increased. In 2011, the period of the permit was changed from three months to six months, with the same stipulations, in order to ease the administrative burden on farmers.


A co-operative agreement for the management of damage-causing animals in the Western Cape was accepted by the Predator Management Forum and signed in April 2013 after it had been gazetted, had been open for comment to the public and had been recommended for use to the agricultural sector.


The co-operative agreement promotes the use of sustainable, holistic management principles and recommends that only specific damage-causing animals, and not the species as a whole, are hunted, and then only when all other management methods or tools have failed to protect livestock.


The Western Cape remains the strictest province when compared with other provinces regarding the management of damage-causing animals. Statistics in the Western Cape indicate that the extremely high numbers of animals hunted, as quoted in the past by the media, are unrealistic and misleading.


I urge the Minister to take the lead and have the political will to deal with this, although it is not his role to have the norms and standards enacted. I request that he enable the promulgation of the national Norms and Standards for Damage-causing Animals in South Africa, so that all provinces in this country can act in the same way to prevent loss of livestock and ensure food security. Thank you. [Applause.]



















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 128









Mr V E MTILENI: At least you can feel us. [Laughter.] We have arrived.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, let us start correctly.


Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you so much. Hon Chair, the Norms and Standards for Damage-causing Animals in South Africa, thought of by its developers as a means through which the country can protect some of the most threatened of our fauna, such as the Cape Leopard, falls far short of its objective on many fronts.


At the heart of the problem is a failure to acknowledge that the expansion of monopoly and monoculture agriculture is inimical to the preservation of our floral and fauna biodiversity. Monopoly agricultural industry is expanding, at times outside of the bounds of legality, to areas that provide a habitat to vertebrate carnivorous animals, whose food sources are forever threatened. The damage that these animals cause to farmers’ livestock is therefore as a result of the insensitivity of the agricultural sector to the need for the preservation of our natural resources, fauna included.


The capitalist-induced greed that the ANC is forever promoting in agriculture, coupled with the farmers’ complete disregard for the laws, which makes them adopt lethal mechanisms to reduce the losses caused by these animals, are the major causes of damage to agriculture, and not the animals. This happens despite the fact that science has evolved to show that there are nonlethal mechanisms to control damage-causing animals, such as shepherd dogs.


The continuous use of barbaric control mechanisms by farmers, such as gin traps and the outright shooting of animals, is indicative of just how little the agricultural sector adheres to the laws. This is, however, linked to the corrupt nature of this sector and the corrupt nature of the departments meant to be overseeing the implementation of the norms and standards.


What is of crucial importance right now is for the country to outline, for everyone to see, the kind of agriculture we want to see, and how this agriculture will operate within our ecological limits. Thank you.







Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 128








Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members and guests, the general extermination of larger predators like lions and brown hyenas has seen an increase in numbers of smaller predators like black-backed jackals, caracals and baboons. These subsequent increases in the numbers of small predators have started to impact negatively on the agricultural sector, since livestock and crops have been destroyed.


Another challenge is the lack of uniform provincial legislation to manage the damage-causing animals. Hence, national norms and standards were drafted to ensure uniformity, transparency and collective responsibility, as these animals are also listed as threatened or protected species, Tops, which it is our obligation as South Africans to protect. Furthermore, we are also a signatory to the Convention on Biological Diversity that obliges us to conserve our rich biodiversity.


The norms and standards aim to provide a nationally co-ordinated and uniform approach to the management of damage-causing animals, whilst providing minimum requirements for methods that require permits in terms of the Tops regulations. The use of soft traps will not be prohibited. Therefore, hon Minister, we support the industry’s response to these norms and standards. The deterrent methods to manage the damage-causing animals are also prudent and indicate a commitment by the agricultural sector.


Hon Minister, the three critical areas that you have identified to pay attention to are fully supported, especially the move to adapt farm management practices to avoid losses. It must also be noted that landowners must also take measures to ensure that their livestock are protected from these species by securing them.


In order for these norms and standards to be effective, close collaboration with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is required, together with that of the Ministry of Environmental Affairs. We also welcome the fact that you have already indicated that there are interactions between the two departments. So, that gives us hope that we are going to be able to curb the scourge that is plaguing our agricultural sector, while still managing our country’s rich biodiversity. Thank you. [Applause.]







Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 129









The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I want to thank the members who have commented.


Hon Khawula, I agree with you. Leopards appear humble and innocent, but when they wander into agricultural areas, they cause devastation wherever they walk. I agree with you that provoking them before they do any damage may not be normal. Hence I believe that all partners should work together. I agree with you on the other issues you have raised.


Hon Labuschagne, I think that as the South African government, while we appreciate what the different provinces are doing, we should avoid a situation where we create a semblance of a federal organisation.


If there are debates taking place at the national level, whatever we do should feed back into what we are doing in the department, and we would appreciate a receipt for the work that we have done in the province. That should not be encouraged because we are one government, and we need to make sure that we work in partnership going forward. However, I do take into account all that you have said, hoping that it will assist us. [Interjections.]


I have only said what is not right. What I am saying is that we as a government need to work within the realm within which we all perform. We cannot promote a situation where each province comes up with its own norms and practices in dealing with this matter.


Hon Mtileni, I always remember a poem written by S E K Mqhayi before the Anglo Boer War entitled uMbambushe.



Apho athi yayinyalasa inja kakumkani, ingene ebuhlanti iyijonge inyama, ithathe entle eyibonayo, inyalase iphume. Okhe walinga wayikhalimela yayibuya imqwenge imshiye emanxeba. Kuthulwe kungathethwa. Kwathi namhla sekukho ukumkani ebuhlathi, yachola isifuba yaphuma naso, waphazama ukumkani wayilanda ngokwakhe; wavuka emgqubeni. Ke ngoko ithi ke imbongi:


Lala njalo ke Mbambushe

Ubuyinja ngokudalwa,

Ngokuvela, nokuzalwa;

Ubungumntu, ngokondliwa,


Xa nditshoyo ke ndizama ukuthi xa sixoxa izinto basibe kwilizwe elinye, sithethe into enye, singaphuphi uNongqawuse owashiya amaxhoba ezimbacu emva kokuba emlandele. Enkosi. Ngakuwe. [Kwaqhwatywa.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, is it a point of order? [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, you also took a long time before you put on your earpiece. I was looking at you.


Mr V E MTILENI: I just request you to ask him to repeat the last paragraph.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon Mtileni. There is ...


Mr V E MTILENI: It was deep, deep, deep, deep. I could not hear a single word.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no! Hon members, we have interpreting services. When members know they are not fluent in or they do not speak certain languages, they should please use the devices provided for them. You use them after they have started speaking. So, do not then come back to us and say that whoever is at the podium must repeat what they said. Hon Minister, please proceed.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you, Chairperson. On the ANC, hon Rayi, I agree with you regarding the areas you have outlined. We are looking at improving our interaction between departments. Our philosophy is that we should create seamless governance between national, provincial, and local government. We should ensure that as we do that work ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber? Hon Minister, there is a member. Hon Faber, do you have a point of order?


Mr W F FABER: Chair, I would just like to bring it to your attention that there is no Afrikaans interpreting service here. I tried to listen a while ago. There may be another one, but I really tried to understand. Some of us only defend ourselves in the English language, so we do not always understand it correctly. I tried in Afrikaans; it was not available.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: My apologies, if that is the case. Hon Faber, we will attend to it. Is there no interpreting in Xitsonga? Yes, I will attend to it. Hon Minister?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I think the issues that have been raised by hon Rayi will be taken into account. I agree on the interaction between stakeholders.


There is a role that farmers should play. When you have sheep and you know that there are jackals around in the area, it is not only the methods by way of control or fencing that should be used, but you should also have your own person to look after your sheep, and perhaps a dog that has been trained in shepherding.


In closing, I would like to thank all the members of the House and say that in consultation we will make sure that we interact with them. I appreciate the need to fast-track this debate. It cannot take any longer. Soon after this meeting, I will be making sure that I convey the sentiments raised to the relevant departments.


I am sorry for speaking the isiXhosa I learnt from my mother. I will perhaps try to define next time.



Ke tla leka go bua Setswana gore ba ba buang Setswana ba kgone go utlwisisa. [Setshego.] Ga ke nyatse dipuo tse dingwe. Ke bua dipuo tse di farologaneng.



Ek sal miskien probeer om Afrikaans te praat as ek hierheen kom. Baie dankie. [Gelag.] [Applous.] [I will perhaps try to speak Afrikaans when I come here. Thank you very much. [Laughter.] [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


























Tuesday, 18 November 2014                       Take: 130

















Mr D L XIMBI: Hon Chairperson, South Africa is one of the 113 signatories to the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions, CCM. The CCM, which came into effect on 1 August 2010, is an international treaty that addresses the humanitarian consequences and unacceptable harm to civilians caused by cluster munitions through a categorical prohibition and a framework for action.

Cluster munitions are conventional munitions that are designed to disperse or release explosive submunitions, grenades weighing less than 20 kg each, that function when detonated by an explosive charge prior to or after impact. The CCM distinguishes between conventional and smart cluster munitions. Unlike smart cluster munitions, conventional cluster munitions are prohibited because of their inability to distinguish between civilians and combatants. Because of the large numbers of dangerous unexploded remnants left behind on targeted areas, similar to land mines, unexploded munitions retain their ability to kill and injure civilians for decades after use and are extremely dangerous to disarm.


In terms of Article 1 of the CCM:


1.       Each State Party undertakes never under any circumstances to:


          (a)      Use cluster munitions;


          (b) Develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer to anyone, directly or indirect, cluster munitions;


          (c) Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a State Party under this Convention.


The CCM also establishes a “framework for cooperation and assistance” to ensure adequate care for survivors and their communities, and “clearance of contaminated areas, risk reduction education and destruction of stockpiles”.


The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the request for ratification by Parliament of the Convention on Cluster Munitions with its accompanying explanatory memorandum, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of 1996, recommends that the National Council of Provinces ratify the convention.


The United Nations Arms Trade Treaty, ATT, was adopted by the United Nations on 2 April 2013 and will enter into force on 24 December 2014. By September 2014 the ATT had been signed by 121 states, including South Africa, and ratified by 53 states. South Africa has not yet ratified the ATT. The treaty will enter into force on 24 December 2014. Cabinet approved the ratification of the ATT in July 2013, and South Africa became a signatory to the treaty on 25 September 2013. The treaty was tabled in Parliament in September 2014 for ratification by Parliament.


Due to South Africa’s existing regulatory arms framework, the National Conventional Arms Control Act 41 of 2002 as amended in 2008, and the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, it will only need to change the timeframe required to keep records of transactions from the current five years to 10 years in order to comply with the treaty. The ATT thus places no additional obligation on South Africa.


The ATT is a multilateral, legally binding agreement that establishes common standards for international trade in conventional weapons and seeks to reduce illicit arms. The treaty aims to reduce human suffering caused by illegal and irresponsible arms transfers, improve regional security and stability, and promote accountability and transparency by state parties regarding the transfers of conventional arms.


The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the request for ratification by Parliament of the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty with its accompanying explanatory memorandum, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution of 1996, recommends that the National Council of Provinces ratify the treaty.


On the suspension from office of the magistrate, Mr M T Masinga, Mr Masinga appeared in the Durban Magistrate’s Court on 19 March 2009 on a charge of contravening section 17(a), read with section 7, of the Domestic Violence Act, Act 116 of 1998. The charge alleged that he assaulted his wife with a blunt axe and that he kicked her, hit her with open hands and threatened to kill her. He also assaulted his daughters. On 8 February 2010, the commission charged Mr Masinga with three counts of misconduct.


The regional court, Durban, convicted Mr Masinga on a charge of attempted murder on 23 May 2011. On 16 January 2012, the regional court, Durban, sentenced Mr Masinga to 10 years’ imprisonment. Mr Masinga appealed against his conviction and sentence. On 28 February 2014 the presiding officer found Mr Masinga guilty on two of the three charges of misconduct. On 22 April 2014 the presiding officer recommended, in terms of Regulation 26(17)(b) of the Regulations for Judicial Officers in the Lower Courts, 1994, that Mr Masinga be removed from the office, as contemplated in section 13(4) of the Act.


At a meeting held on 11 July 2014 the Magistrates Commission considered the documents as required by the Regulations for Judicial Officers in the Lower Courts and recommended to the Minister that Mr Masinga be suspended and removed from the office on the grounds of misconduct in terms of section 13(4)(a)(i) of the Act.


The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the commission’s report on the suspension and removal from office of Mr Masinga and the Minister’s request, recommends that the National Council of Provinces confirm Mr Masinga’s suspension and removal from the office of magistrate.

With regard to the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate R M Malahlela, Mrs Malahlela, an aspirant additional magistrate at the Delmas District Court, received her appointment to the lower court bench on 1 November 2004. The commissioner did not approve her permanent appointment due to poor performance, irregularities in her work, absenteeism, refusal to execute lawful orders, major delays in judgements, failure to finalise matters, and poor utilisation of court time.


Her evaluation report indicated that she is not a fit and proper person for appointment as a magistrate. The Judicial Head of Office laid allegations of poor performance, alleged misconduct and prejudice against Mrs Malahlela.


Mr C J Barnard, Chief Magistrate and Head of the National Judicial Quality Assurance Office in Pretoria, laid further allegations against Mrs Malahlela, alleging that she was absent for a considerable period from work and could not satisfactorily explain her absence.


Medical reports indicated that Mrs Malahlela suffered from major depressive and panic disorders.


The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the report on the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate R M Malahlela, recommends that the National Council of Provinces confirm the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate Malahlela, pending the outcome of the investigation into misconduct. I thank you. [Interjections.]


Question put: That the Report on the Convention on Cluster Munitions with Explanatory Memorandum be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Question put: That the Report on the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty with Explanatory Memorandum be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Question put: That the Report on the Suspension from Office of Magistrate M T Masinga be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Question put: That the Report on the Provisional Suspension from Office of Magistrate R M Malahlela be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 131














The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I would like to welcome the Deputy Minister, the hon Mr A C Nel.


Before the Deputy Minister begins, may I just take this opportunity to remind hon members of the channels for interpretation. The hon Mtileni is out of the House. However, Xitsonga is on channel 3; isiNdebele is on channel 4; isiZulu is on channel 6; Sesotho is on channel 7; Sepedi is on channel 8; Setswana is on channel 9; siSwati is on channel 10; Tshivenda is on channel 11 and Afrikaans is on channel 1.


Hon Deputy Minister, please proceed.





Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]



Chairperson, hon members, and ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for the opportunity to participate in this very important debate.


I think the NCOP Provincial Week is really in line with our commitment to building an activist Parliament that expresses the needs and challenges facing communities. It’s an important forum for exchanging and sharing ideas around service delivery and the challenges facing provinces in fulfilling their roles.


It is an opportunity for Parliament, for provinces and for municipalities to work together to find solutions and new ways to address the needs of South Africa’s people. When one reads the report of the Provincial Week, one is reminded of the words of President Mandela when he addressed the last sitting of the Senate on 31 January 1997, and there he said:


This is what endows the work of the NCOP with major responsibility for the well-being of our nation. This is what makes the work of the NCOP and its members radically different from that of ... the National Assembly.


It will require new ways of working and new procedures. It will require wisdom and creativity in finding practical ways of accomplishing what could be a labyrinthine task of reconciling nine provinces and central government. It will require embracing the spirit of our new patriotism which subordinates pomp and ceremony to the need to grapple with the practicalities of nation-building, reconstruction and development, while accommodating regional diversity. It will require, initially at least, a focus on what is central to the role of the NCOP, rather than that which is ancillary.


I think that without a doubt in reading the report that we are debating today, one is convinced that it is indeed central rather than ancillary to the role of the NCOP.


If one reads the report, one sees it reflects the assessment of our National Development Plan that South Africa has made remarkable progress in the transition from the apartheid to the democracy, and that in nearly every facet of our national life advances are being made in building an inclusive society, in rolling back the shadow of history and in broadening opportunities for all. Millions who were previously excluded have access to education, water, electricity, health care, housing and social security.


However, reading this Provincial Week report, one finds that it also reflects the NDP’s assessment that 20 years into democracy South Africa remains a highly unequal society where too many people live in poverty and too few work; that the quality of school education for many black learners is poor; that the apartheid spatial divide continues to dominate the landscape; that a large proportion of young people feel that the odds are stacked against them; and that the legacy of apartheid continues to determine the life opportunities for the vast majority.


Reading this report, one is indeed convinced of the arguments advanced by the NDP, that these challenges can only be addressed through a major step change in our country’s performance, and that over the next two decades we’re going to have to do things very differently from the way we’ve been doing them up to now.


All of this takes place, for me, in two big contexts. One context, particularly relevant to the NCOP, is our system of intergovernmental relations. The other, equally relevant to the NCOP, is the state of our municipalities. So, I want to address those two issues.


Firstly, the NDP makes the point that South Africa’s intergovernmental framework is still very new. The nine provinces were formed in 1994. Our municipalities in their current form have been around since 2000. The NDP argues that South Africa’s approach of decentralising responsibility for implementation, while maintaining national oversight and using centralised funding mechanisms to achieve redistribution, is not out of line with the approach taken by many other countries.


The challenge, however, is to ensure that these structures deliver for all. The Constitution provides a set of principles for how the system should operate, not an owner’s manual for turning those principles into reality. South Africa has frequently witnessed distrust and conflict among the different spheres and this has replaced efforts to collaborate on overcoming obstacles. The costs of such chronic uncertainty are indeed enormous, and I think that one sees it as one reads the Provincial Week report.


The NDP argues that there are five particular issues that need to be addressed if South Africa is to move its intergovernmental relations onto a more constructive plane. Firstly, we need greater clarity on roles and responsibilities in a differentiated system. Secondly, we need to actively explore regionalisation as a response to capacity constraints. Thirdly, we need a coherent set of powers for metropolitan municipalities. Fourthly, we need a more focused role for provinces and, fifthly, a proactive approach to identifying and resolving problems.


The Constitution refers in section 40(1) to the three spheres as “distinctive, interdependent and interrelated”, and indeed no sphere – no sphere – can succeed on its own. The NDP proposes a more constructive form of interdependence through a more proactive approach to managing this intergovernmental system. Flowing out of those proposals in the NDP, President Zuma, in the state of the nation address after the national and provincial elections, announced the creation of an inter-Ministerial committee on basic service delivery. This committee is chaired by Mr Pravin Gordhan, the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs.


In setting up that committee the President emphasised the need for sector departments to work together to ensure that there is accountability between role-players in the delivery of municipal infrastructure and basic services to communities through an institutional structure that will forge collaboration between policy-making, support, implementation and compliance with legislative requirements regarding the provision of basic services.


In pursuit of the work of that inter-Ministerial committee, Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs has also embarked upon a collaborative process with various key water stakeholders. This is in order to look at ways in which grant funding for water, which is in the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, the Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant, the so-called RBIG, the Municipal Water Infrastructure Grant, MWIG - this is a veritable soup of acronyms – will be aligned to the water backlogs in the 27 priority district municipalities, including the 23 priority district municipalities ... [Inaudible.]


This approach of rationalising the management of infrastructure grants will be extended to all other services – to roads, electricity, refuse and sanitation – over the course of our Medium-Term Strategic Framework period, from 2014 to 2019.


The MTSF also outlines some very important actions that need to be taken during that period in developing a more collaborative and integrated approach to service delivery.


One of those would be to confirm and assess delivery norms and standards for basic services, and to determine and quantify the number of households without services that need minimum standards per municipality.


The second is to prepare a schedule and pipeline of costed projects to address maintenance, upgrading, refurbishment and new infrastructure requirements in each municipality. The third is to support municipalities to plan, implement, operate and maintain infrastructure projects. The fourth is to establish integrated monitoring systems for tracking the implementation of those pipeline projects.


The fifth is to continue to strengthen and support the planning and delivery of services by municipalities.


The final one is to coordinate the sector department’s commitments within the municipal support, monitoring and intervention plans.


All of that takes place within the context of the approach that we term Back to Basics. It is an approach which I think resonates with many of the issues that Members of the NCOP will have come across during Provincial Week, issues that are reflected in the report serving before the House today. That approach is built on five major pillars.


The first pillar is putting people first. This we can do by making sure that we are in constant contact with communities through effective public participation platforms; that we are accountable; that we report back; and that we deliver services in a way that is sensitive to the needs of people.


The second pillar is the delivery of basic services. We need to identify problems and make sure that in each and every one of our 278 municipalities there’s a basic basket of services that are delivered consistently without fail, and also make sure that where there are failures those failures are addressed with urgency.


Thirdly, there is the pillar of good governance. We need to make sure that our municipalities get the basics right in regard to good governance. The structures should meet as they are supposed to; they should discuss what they need to discuss; and structures such as ward committees should be composed properly and function properly, and report back to their communities.


The fourth is sound financial management. It has to ensure that the public money that has been entrusted to our municipalities is well managed and that the basic elements of financial management are in place and complied with. That would imply that something like a disclaimer is an absolute no-no, and is something that is completely unacceptable.


The fifth pillar is to build and maintain sound institutional and administrative capabilities, amongst others by ensuring that we employ the right people with the right skills and the right qualifications to do the right jobs.


In pursuing the implementation of the Back to Basics approach, we have constituted nine provincial task teams that will consist of Cogta as well as a number of other service delivery sector departments, in particular Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation, Energy, and Transport, but also involving state-owned enterprises, and, of course, the provincial departments.


The first such task team that we established was with the North West. There’s a joint task team between Cogta national and the province. It also involves the Departments of Water Affairs and the National Treasury.


That task team has done a thorough evaluation of each and every municipality in the North West. I can share with members of the NCOP that the municipalities that we have targeted as our highest priority municipalities in that province are the very municipalities that you’ve targeted in your report. They are municipalities like Ngaka Modiri Molema, Tswaing, Ditsobotla, Matlosana, Kagisano-Molopo, Mahikeng, Kgetlengrivier, Maquassi Hills and Ventersdorp.


The positive aspect of that approach is that we have gone to each and every one of those municipalities and we have identified the issues, many of them the same issues that you’ve identified in your report. Together with the province and those municipalities we’ve worked out an action plan to address the matters. Some of the first action that has been taken was a section 139 intervention in the Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality. This is a matter which served before this House, and it was approved.


I can announce to the House that there have been a number of challenges to that intervention. The most recent one was an urgent application to the Constitutional Court to overturn the municipality. The Constitutional Court ruled today and dismissed that application with costs. So, we are acting very strongly as national Cogta, together with the province and our sector departments.


Going forward, we will be rolling out the approach that we have piloted in the North West in all the other municipalities. We are also very happy to be able to report today to the House that as part of the Back to Basics approach, Back to Basics launches have been held in four provinces already and the remaining five provinces will launch it before the end of the year.


In implementing that Back to Basics approach in order to deal with many of the issues raised in the Provincial Week report, our priorities will firstly be to ensure that one third of our municipalities that are in a state of dysfunctionality are taken out of that state of dysfunctionality within the next 18 months to two years. We will achieve that by working collaboratively with other sector departments and provinces, very actively monitoring those municipalities that are dysfunctional and, where necessary, intervening.


Secondly, there are those municipalities – which are also one third in number – that are functioning all right, but are experiencing challenges which, if we do not address them, will cause them to regress. We will also monitor them very actively and our focus will be on supporting them in order for them to move into the third category of the municipalities, which is those municipalities that are functioning well.


On the third category of the municipalities that are functioning well, our focus will be on giving them greater flexibility and control over resources, as well as encouraging them to move beyond just doing the basics and to tackle broader issues of transforming their space economies and implementing the Integrated Urban Development Framework.


Our fourth priority during this period will be a very targeted and vigorous approach to corruption and fraud, demonstrating an absolute zero tolerance approach and relying on collaboration with the criminal justice cluster. We will be making use of those agencies, but also realising that in many cases the agencies have their own limitations, and that cases often take very long. We will therefore be exploring more creative and innovative ways of dealing with fraud and corruption, such as relying on civil claims and also asset forfeiture.


Importantly, we will also be focusing on working with the private sector to ensure that big corporations don’t do what they are doing in a city like Johannesburg, where they are defrauding the municipality of hundreds of millions of rands ... [Inaudible.] We want to make it clear that corruption is not something that is unique to the public sector, and also that it takes two to tango. Moreover, we need to inculcate a broader culture of morality across our society.


Chairperson, we thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate and we commend the excellent work done by the NCOP through, amongst others, programmes such as Provincial Week. Thank you very much. [Applause]







Ms N MLOMBILE-CINGO (Eastern Cape)






Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 132










Nks N MLOMBILE-CINGO (Mpuma Koloni): Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo wale Ndlu yoWiso-mthetho, Sekela Mphathiswa, malungu onke ahloniphekileyo ale Ndlu, manene nani manenekazi, zidwesha nezidwangube ezikhoyo, ndiyabulisa ngale njikalanga egameni lombutho i-ANC, ugandaganda.


Xa sikule nyanga yeshumi elinanye uNovemba, siyi-ANC sikhumbula izivubeko zentlungu eyasehlelayo yokuxhonywa kabuhlungu kwabantu abafana nooVuyisile Mini, ooWilson Khayinga, nooZinakile Mkhaba. Aba bantu bangena okwamagorha phakathi kwezoo ntsimbi, banikezela ngobomi babo ukuze nathi namhlanje sibe sime kule ndawo ngugunya lokuba igazi labo alizange liwele phantsi kwaye zisimisele ukuba sithathe apho bayeka khona.


Yiyo loo nto sisoloko sizingca ngabo sisithi siya kuhlala siziva sinetyala kubo imihla nezolo xa sisenza okutenxileyo kwezo nto babefele zona. Yiyo loo sifuna ukukhuthaza naye nabanina onikwe igunya lokukhokela nelokwenza izinto ukuba azimisele ekwenzeni loo nto umntu abekelwe ukuba ayenze ukuze ukufa kwabo kungabi lilize.


Siyi-ANC sithi ngxee kwezo ntsapho zithe zagutyungelwa lilifu elimnyama, zifelwa ngabantu bazo bekhangela uncedo ngokwasemphefumlweni kuba kaloku le nto ingumntu iziziqu ezithathu apho kuyo. Inyama ihamba indima yayo kodwa umphefumlo nawo ufuna ukondliwa. Nabo bebezama ukuya kondla umphefumlo e-Nigeria kodwa ke bawa phantsi nje ngamagorha. Sithi ke kurhulumente okhokelwa yi-ANC, siyabulela ngenzame enizenzileyo.


I-ANC ayinayo imilingo yokuba ihambe igxabhuza kwamanye amazwe ingene ngesitshovutshovu ifike ilawule amanye amazwe. Ingena ngesidima nokuba isentlungwini. Yiyo loo nto ke i-ANC ibingazi kufika ilawule iNigeria ithathe imizimba ibuye nezitena. Aba bantu bebengesayi kubuya bephantsi kwezitena kodwa bekuza kufuneka bekhethiwe baconjululwe phakathi kwazo babuye bengabantu abanesidima. Sithi ke huntshu kulo rhulumente, sisithi ngxee kuloo mizi ililayo kwaye silila kunye nayo.


Inkokheli yethu u-O R Tambo xa ndimcaphula ngesilungu uthi:






The fight for freedom must go on until it is won; until our country is free and happy and peaceful as part of the community of man, we cannot rest.



Asinalo ke ithuba lokuphumla siyi-ANC kude kube ukukhululeka kufike ngokugqibeleleyo. Yiyo loo nto kuthi xa kuthethwa ngokuziswa kweenkonzo eluntwini iyeyona nto ibaluleke ukugqitha nantoni na kuba yeyona nto abantu bakuthi ababambelele kuyo.


Kwela phondo lase Mpuma Koloni siye sahlala sayicubungula, sayixoxa le ngxelo sazibona izinto ezintle ezenzekileyo ezincomekayo kuba kaloku apho kufuneka sincome khona siyancoma. Siye sazibona nezinto ezifuna ukulungiswa ngokukhawuleza.


Xa besixoxa siliphondo siye safikelela kwinto yokuba ikomiti nganye echaphazelekayo mayijonge izinto eziqondene nayo, izilandele ngokufanelekileyo ukuze zikwazi ukwenzeka. Ezo zingaphaya kwamandla ephondo siziphose ngasentla kubakhuluwa nakubakhuluwakazi bethu bazithwale. Yiyo loo nto ke siyiMpuma Koloni sisiza kuni apha kuba imithwalo yala maphondo siyibeka phezu kwamagxa enu. Yithatheni ke le mithwalo niyise kulaa Ndlu inkulu yoWiso-mthetho ukuze ikwazi ukulungiswa ngendlela.


Ela phondo ke siyazi ukuba ixesha elininzi iingxaki elijongene nazo zizinto ezinjongene nalento kuthiwa ngesilungu yi-infrastructure. Liphondo elicekethekileyo xa kuziwa kwezo zinto. Uya kukhumbula ukuba oomasipala bethu thina ngapha yayizindlwana nje ezincinane ezonele abantu abalishumi, zenzelwe abantu abakhethekileyo abalinde into yokuba bafumane uncedo. Nasezidolophini izindlu ukuba zifikile eshumini ezazikhona zazininzi kakhulu. Yiyo loo nto ke umntu wayeya kufumanisa ukuba imibhobho yombane, eyamanzi neyezindlu zangasese eyenziweyo zilingene elaa nani kwakulingiselwa lona ligcuntswana labantu ababephethe. Abo bantu babecinga ukuba baya kuphatha naphakade abayilungiselela into yokuba isizwe sikaYehova siseza kukhula sibe sininzi.


I-ANC ijongene nokwenza ngokutsha imibhobho, nezindlu zangasese yonke into. Loo nto ayiyo into elula ukuba ungayenza ngosuku. Yiyo loo nto sivuma ukuba ekusebenzeni kwethu sinazo iziphene ezithi zenzeka. Into esivuyisayo ke inye, kukho abantu ababukele iziphene zethu bakhombe zona kuba bona bahlalele nje ukukhomba izinto ezingalunganga. Iyasivuyisa ke loo nto kuba kaloku siyi-ANC thina asivaleli mntu xa esibonisa apho singahambi kakuhle khona.


Yiyo loo nto sabeka le mithetho yokuba makubekho abaPhicothi-zincwadi Jikelele bazokuveza yonke into yokuba imali isetyenziswe njani na. Ndinomdla wokhe ndibone i-Archives zamandulo zoo-age bangaphambili phambi koo-1994 ukuba zigcinwe phi. Kutheni kungakhe kubhekiselwe kuzo nje. I-ANC yona iyayi vuyela into yokuba kunamhlanje nje yona iyakwazi ukuvez yonke iyibeke elubala ithi ndicaluleni kule ndawo.


Kunamhlanje ke sizamana naloo nto ingakumbi kwela phondo. Elaa phondo linabantu abangathathi ntweni, ayingabo abantu abakwaziyo ukuhlawula ezi zinto zikhumshileyo kuthiwa zii-rates. Yiyo loo nto ufumanisa ukuba oomasipala baxhomekeke ekufumaneni le mali esisabelo esisuka ngasentla. Laa mali ke, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, sifuna ukunicenga nonke kule Ndlu ukuba_masithwalisaneni ekulungiseni esi sibalo sisetyenziswayo ukohlula imali. Ezi zibalo ziyasibetha kuba kaloku xa usebenzisa ezi zibalo ubetha lo mntu uhleli engenanto kakade. Xa amehlo akho uwavula, ujonge ukuba eli phondo liqhwalela ndawoni na, nawe, nokuba ungafunda izibalo ude ufike kwinqanaba lokuba ngugqirha kwezemfundo [PhD] ungazibona ukuba makhe ndizibeke phantsi izibalo, ndincedisane neli phondo ngokomsebenzi omninzi ongekenziwa elijongene nawo.


Yinto esiyicelayo ke leyo, singadeleli imithetho ekhoyo. Sithi makhe siyijionge ngeliso elibanzi ukuba iMpuma Koloni namanye amaphondo afana nayo, xa kusabiwa imali, ayincedisi into yokuba kwabiwe imali ngokuthi kohlulwe ngokwenani labantu. Loo nto asiyidelanga kodwa sithi sibonile kuba kude kwangoku ingasincedisi. Makhe kulungiswe izinto ngokwendlela abantu abashota ngayo.


Bonke abantu bathi bafuna ukuphumelela iMetro, baza kuyithatha iMetro yaseBhayi. Sihlalelwe yiloo nto imihla nezolo, kodwa uyazibuza ukuba kutheni abantu bengenawo umdla wokuthi, “siza kuyithatha Flagstaff, neNgquza Hill”. Akukho mntu ufunayo kuthetha ngaba masipala baphaya ezilalini kuba kaloku wonke umntu uyayazi ukuba kuya qwatyululwa phaya kwaye kuyasetyenzwa. Abantu bafuna ezi ndawo i-ANC sele izilungisile ukuze bafike bakhazimle bona ngosiba lwabo olubomvu.


Sifuna ukucela umngeni kwaba bantu bafuna ukuthatha, khe basibonise bethatha phaya ezantsi emgqubeni besakhe entweni engekhoyo. Yiyo loo nto siyi-ANC sisithi siyazidla, singoogandaganda abathi bakuyilungisa indlela ibe yitha kuvele abantu besithi ufana ntoni lo gandaganda emosha le ndlela nje. Yiyi loo nto sinegunya lokuthi siyaqhubeka nokuzama nokutyhala sisiya phambili kwaye siyaqhubeka nokuphazama kwezinye iindawo kwaye asiphiki apho siphazame khona kodwa siyatsho ukuba isizwe sakuthi siyasizama iinkonzo zifike kuzo kwezi ndawo zikuzo.


Siyazidla ke, Sihlalo obekekileyo, sisithi ukuba abantu bakuthi bangayazi ukuba laa maphondo angathathi ntweni axhomekeke kumasebe karhulumente ukuze afumane iinkonzo. Yiyo loo nto sikhuthaza abantu abasebenza kula masebe ukuba khe babenela futhe nempucuko yobukhoboka [culture of servitude]. Umntu azixelele ukuba xa evuka ekuseni uvuka aye kusebenza ekhonza abantu besizwe sakhe., kuba xa umntu engasatyikelwa, ungenzelwa nezinto, zakhe kuthiwa i-ANC ayisebenzi kodwa xa abantu bezifumana izinto zabo elowo umntu ubanga uloyiso esingenalo.


Ngaloo mazwi ke sihlalo ndifuna ukuthi sonke kule ndlu sithunyiwe nokuba umntu uthunywe ngubanina kodwa okubalulekileyo masibambisane sincede isizwe sethu siye phambili ukuze bantu bafuna oko bebekuvotele. I-ANC ithi le ngxelo mayihliwe amahlongwana isiwe phambili. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]















Ms N MLOMBILE-CINGO (Eastern Cape)




Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 133









Ms M F TLAKE: Chairperson, I stand on the podium after the Deputy President, who outlined the national holistic perspective on giving effect to the NDP, which calls for the eradication of poverty, a promotion of equality, and the eradication of unemployment. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Tlake, the Deputy Minister is very happy for the promotion. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]


Ms M F TLAKE: I beg your pardon?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Deputy Minister is very proud of the promotion.


Ms M F TLAKE: Oh, yes! That is exactly what he said.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he is a Deputy Minister. You said, “Deputy President”.


Ms M F TLAKE: He e [No], I meant to say, “Deputy Minister”. [Laughter.] Sorry! He will be a Deputy President one day.


I continue. He actually said this would happen within a co-operative governance that is characterised by interrelatedness and interdependence, however distinct. Moving from this perspective, I will give a report on the visit of our committee of Free State delegates to the Free State province, which was on 9-12 September 2014.


On the first day we started with a briefing by the Premier of the Free State, focusing primarily on the service delivery priorities of the province over the short-term to medium-term period. He then outlined the different clusters within which they had prioritised. They were the economic cluster, the social cluster, the health cluster, and the justice and crime prevention cluster.


After that we received a presentation by the Auditor-General of South Africa. The Auditor-General’s opinions were these. He said that there had been improvements in the overall audit outcome of municipalities in the Free State from 2008-09 to 2012-13.


The number of disclaimers had been reduced significantly, from 22 out of 27 municipalities, to eight. The municipalities with qualified findings had increased from two to 10, while those with unqualified audits with findings increased from three to eight.


The Auditor-General observed that municipalities must urgently implement basic controls, such as daily and monthly processing and reconciling of transactions, proper record keeping, and document control.


He actually observed that over the past three years unauthorised expenditure had increased by 49%. The biggest contributors were overspending of the approved municipality budget, mostly due to poor budget processes. Noncompliance with supply chain management requirements led to irregular expenditure of R1 billion. Most of the fruitless and wasteful expenditure related to interest payable to Eskom and interest and penalties levied by the SA Revenue Service.


The Auditor-General’s concerns relating consultants included measures to monitor contract performance, and nonexistence of conditions or clauses relating to transfer of skills not included in contracts, lack of transfer of skills, and no policies or strategies in place on use of consultants.


He then recommended that the government of the Free State must address root causes, such as vacancies in key positions; address internal controls relating to government; develop a strategy for monitoring consultants; and keep and maintain an asset register.


To answer the concerns of the Auditor-General, the province has deployed the provincial treasury to support municipalities over processes such as the compilation and review of annual finance statements. Also, the SA Local Government Association, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and the Auditor-General have established a provincial audit steering committee to assist in audit business.


On the second day we visited Pelonomi Hospital. This is the hospital that was under severe attack and subject to misconceptions. There was a concern that in winter the patients were washing with cold water. Therefore, while we were at the hospital we were taken to see the boilers by the MEC. When we got there, we realised that the boilers were very, very old. They had been used for ages, probably since the 1800s, a long time ago, and they were still being fired up using coal instead of electricity.


We also realised that there are five engineers who are currently being utilised for the maintenance of the boilers. They have to be maintained, but it is really problematic because the spares and other parts have to be ordered from outside the country. This is because they belong to ancient times!


At the end of the day they said they were going to resort to a solar panel system so they could assist whenever there was an emergency. However, they do have a generator which they use in theatre and when there are emergencies.


From there we were taken to the Tina Moloi Clinic, which is a pilot-sized project of the National Health Insurance. This clinic was built in 1987 and handed over to the Department of Health in June 2014. It offers comprehensive primary health care, operating from 07:30 to 16:30 daily, excluding weekends and public holidays.


Through NHI implementation the district has managed to appoint a physician, an advanced midwife, a primary healthcare nurse and a paediatric nurse. The ward-based outreach team project has not yet been implemented.


We found that medicines are available at this clinic, more especially antiretroviral drugs, TB-tracer drugs, vaccines and chronic medication. The medication consumables have been more than 75% on average. The clinic refers patients to Elizabeth Ross Hospital; to Dr Khan, who is based at the Eva Mota Clinic on Thursdays; and to social workers on Tuesdays.


From there we visited the Phuthaditjhaba Clinic. Phuthaditjhaba is one of the nodal areas, and this clinic, too, is marked for NHI pilot projects. The clinic is one of 32 clinics in the Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality area and is the only clinic which is more accessible to people from different areas. It serves a population of approximately 27 826 people.


The clinic is a new modular structure, which was recently completed and is being equipped to be fully functional in order to alleviate overcrowding in the main structure. It is operational for eight hours a day and renders comprehensive primary health care services, including condom distribution, TB screening, maternal care, neonatal care, child and women’s health care, and epilepsy, asthma and obesity management.


From there we went to Elizabeth Ross Hospital. It is a level 1 hospital and renders the following services to the community. There are a maternity ward consisting of 25 beds, and a paediatric unit. There is a kangaroo care unit, which promotes mother-child bonding, resulting in a reduction of infant fatalities and disease. The hospital is also equipped with a state-of-the-art X-ray unit.


Before I proceed, let me say that I forgot to mention that at Pelonomi Hospital there was a concern among other parties and outside that the health system was collapsing. I want to tell members that the Minister of Health, hon Motsoaledi, intervened and conducted an investigation, as a result of which he saw to it that the level of health there was uplifted.


The provincial treasury has allocated a person to the hospital who will assist with the problems that they are experiencing in the treasury. I think all is coming right for Pelonomi Hospital.


From there we went to the Di ... [Time expired.] Okay. [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, while I do take a soft line with delegations from the provinces, the permanent delegates of the NCOP should please watch their times. Please watch your times.
















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 134










Ms T WANA: Good afternoon, Chairperson of the NCOP. Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Mr Nel, permanent delegates, delegates from the provinces, ...




 ... zinkosi neekumkani zakowethu, ...




 ... distinguished guests and members of the media, ...



 ... ndiyanibulisa, molweni emakhaya. Sihlalo, mandibulele eli thuba lokuba ndime kule ndawo yalwelwa ngoobawo bethu, ooNelson Mandela, O R Tambo, Chris Hani, ukuba sithathe inxaxheba ekuxoxeni, sixoxele abantu bakuthi ngempilo yabo. Sihlalo, makhe ndiqale ndicaphule kancinci kuShakespear kwincwadi yakhe ethi Twelfth Night xa esithi:



Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.


Hon Chairperson, my noble organisation was born great. It was born great – let me repeat that, because we managed to fight apartheid and we are here. Everybody is free, including our colonialists. The ANC has managed to create a system that includes everybody, who are participating. Even those people who undermined the struggle are participating.


Before 1994 big towns and small towns had people who were called town clerks. That was a qualification of the time. That town clerk reported to the bosses of discrimination, so that all the people of South Africa could be oppressed, spiritually and otherwise.


Let me come to the activities of 9-12 September in the Eastern Cape.



Sizibonile izinto zisenziwa kakhulu ngulo rhulumente we-ANC. Isigidi sabantu namhlanje banombane. Inkqubo ye-ANC ikwazile ukwenza le nto kuthiwa ...


 ... local development in the local sphere.



Ukuba siyakhumbula apha eNdlwini, phaya kula Masipala waseKhaya iPort St Johns bekukho utata omdala, olixhego ebelisithi, “Molo Mhlobo wam”



That was a partnership between Telkom ...



 ... kunye nabantu bala ndawo, kangangokuba abantu bala ndawo bayanxibelelana ngoku ngenxa ye-ANC. Baneeselula ngenxa ye-ANC. Izinto ezininzi zenziwe phaya kwaye sibonile nokuba abantu abangenazindlu bakhelwe nasezilalini.



The destitute are covered because our ANC is a caring government.



Ikhona ke ingxaki kuba aba masipala bancinci abanayo ingeniso, bancedwa sisibonelelo kodwa kunjalo abantu bakuthi abakhalazi.




They are patient enough to wait for delivery.



Okunye Sihlalo emandikuveze kakhulu kule ndawo ndimi kuyo kukuba abantu basezilalini bayabulela. Bayabuza ukuba zii-ovarolo ezitheni ezi zisoloko zimi ngeenyawo apha? Bayabuza ukuba bebevotela ntoni na? Xa siphendula ke thina sithi yidemokhrasi eze ne-ANC. Bathi bona abasoze baphinde babe beqakathiswa ngabantu abanee-ovarolo ezibomvu, kangangokuba abayifuni into enombala obomvu ngoku ezilalini. Bakhetha i-ovarolo eluhlaza okwesibhakabhaka okanye emhlophe. Abafuni nokuzibona iigambutsi ezimhlophe, sebethanda ezimnyama. [Kwahlekwa.] Kaloku banento ethi bebecinga ukuba phaya ePalamente kuxoxelwa ikamva eliqaqambileyo lobomi babantwana babo.



Let me quote a brilliant thinker, Ho Chi Minh, who said:


The country belongs to the people, it is owned by the people, all the rights and the forces are in the people’s hands. Cadres are the people’s servants and not revolutionary mandarins like the rulers of the old order who trod on the people’s necks.


That is the DA. The DA will use all the technicalities.


Chairperson, let me say this, that all these small opposition and minor parties are very angry. They lost on 7 May 2014. So they are angry because they cannot have power, and they are not going to get power by dirty technicalities. You cannot have power in the boardroom. The ANC is there. The ANC is a caring organisation. As a result, in local government we as the ANC have managed to build access roads, to build clinics, and to build everything else so that poor people can have access to services, more especially in the rural areas.


Chairperson, in the speech at the summit that was called by our President ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wana, there is a point of order. Ntate Julius.


Mr J W W JULIUS: It is not actually a point of order, Chairperson. I would like to ask whether the hon member is willing to take a question.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wana, are you willing to take a question?





Nks T WANA: Hayi andinaxesha lambuzo mna, makafake umyalezo omfutshane obhalwe ngeselula. [Kwahlekwa.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: She is refusing, hon Julius. Please take your seat. Please continue, hon Wana.


Ms T WANA: Thank you, Chairperson. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please continue, hon member. [Interjections.] Order!


Ms T WANA: Chairperson, on our visit we noticed that the departments are not paying for service delivery from the local municipalities on the set date, like paying for electricity or water services, so that all the local municipalities and district councils can have funding. I appeal to Dalibhulu to consult with the other departments so that they make the payments timeously, because they get the services and electricity from the municipalities.


As we are aware from the verified audit, in the Eastern Cape we have a population of 6,5 million. I am standing here and very proud to be saying that of the 45 municipalities in the Eastern Cape, only one is ruled by the DA and it is very small. This is in the context that apartheid was grounded in the Eastern Cape. All the other 44 municipalities are led by the ANC. We are saying, “Long live the spirit of the ANC for the people of the Eastern Cape.” It is on record that we have managed to be the province with the highest vote for the ANC. So, our word is that this is the province of the legends. [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: How many ... [Inaudible.]


Ms T WANA: No, I am not going to answer that. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please continue.


Ms T WANA: Okay. Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Continue, hon Wana.


Ms T WANA: Thank you, Chairperson. We are aware that the structures that are put in place by the ANC, like community development workers ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, do you have a point of order?




Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Enkosi Sihlalo, bendicela ukubuza ukuba angawuthatha na umbuzo ukwenzela ukuba aqonde into yokuba lo Shakespeare athetha ngaye uthi:


Cowards die many times before their deaths.

The valiant never taste of death but once.


Makabonakalise ubungangangamsha, awuthathe lo mbuzo.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don’t know whether ... –



yima, Nks Mpambo ohloniphekileyo. Ubuthe ufuna ukuba ... –



 ... whether she can take a question. She must first respond to that. Are you willing, hon Wana?


Ms T WANA: No, Chairperson. She is just wasting my time because she is out to impress the party she belongs to.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hold on, hon Wana. Hon Faber?


Mr W F FABER: Thank you, hon Chair. I would just like to know if the hon member can take my cellphone number, because I really want the SMS on those audit outcomes. I can’t wait for it. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber, that is not a point of order. If it is a request, it must be between the two of you outside of this House. Please continue, hon Wana.


Ms T WANA: Chairperson, as I was saying, all the municipalities, except one, are ruled by the ANC. I am not going to mention all of them. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please concentrate on your speech.


Ms T WANA: I call for protection, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The rules of debate do allow heckling, members. The person on the podium must concentrate on what message they want to put across. Please continue, hon Wana. [Interjections.] Please continue.


Ms T WANA: Chairperson, what I can explain as I am standing here is that we as the ANC have a very big vision, and we are going to carry on with this.


As a result of that, in our municipality we currently have seats that belong to the traditional leaders because we want them to monitor the council activities and monitor their subjects outside the council. Why all the members are very disciplined in the rural areas is because we are so ethical as to be disciplined by the disciplinarians.


Secondly, the parties that are here are just like chameleons, because today they change to pink and tomorrow they will change to blue and on the following day they will be white. [Interjections.] You will never get these small parties, more especially the DA, in the deep rural areas. If you want them to come, they will use one of us. For instance, you can analyse the dirty tricks that are done by the blacks because they get money from these whites. They do not even have by-elections. In the Eastern Cape we have had four by-elections in October ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon Wana. Order! Hon Labuschagne, you are on your feet.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: What is the relevance of this speaker’s deliberations on the ANC and votes to the visits during Provincial Week?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. Hon Julius.


Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, Chairperson. The speaker mentioned that they would use “one of us”. What is the meaning of “us”? The DA will never use an ANC person to campaign for them. What is the meaning of “us”? Thank you.


Ms T WANA: Oh. Let me ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you responding to this, hon Wana?


Ms T WANA: Yes, I can respond. The “us” means that when your party goes to the rural areas they will dress like Africans – they will dress like us – and use a black person who was oppressed by them. They were the National Party then, and now they are the DA, but the tactics are the same.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. You have responded, hon member?


Ms T WANA: Yes.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon ... [Interjections.]


Ms T WANA: The tactics are the same.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen is on the floor. I have not recognised you. Hon Van Lingen.


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the provincial whip, the Eastern Cape Province, and the governing party drew up the programme according to which we travelled up there and of the places that we visited. This hon member may not say that we do not go to the deep rural places. Furthermore, she may not discredit our members that are Xhosa-speaking and dress traditionally as whatever she would like to call them. They have the full right and freedom of choice in South Africa, ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen, is that a point of order?


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... according to Chapter 2 of the Constitution, to do so. She must withdraw that.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Lingen, was that a point of order?




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It sounded like a debating point, more than a point of order. Hon Faber?


Mr W F FABER: Am I recognised? Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like her to withdraw her remark about the National Party because, if we were to be under oath and stand up to say who is from the National Party, I believe that not one DA member who is sitting here at the moment would stand up. But we might get other surprises.




Ms T WANA: Chairperson, the thing is that they do not want to listen, and listening is a skill. [Interjections.] That is the problem. Let me ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wana, you have got six seconds to conclude your speech.


Ms T WANA: Thank you. Chairperson, thank you very much for defending me.


Lastly, in October we had four by-elections. To prove that the ANC is always there with the people ... [Time expired.] Thanks. [Applause.]





Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 135









Ms D SENOKOANYANE (Gauteng): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Ministers – I see Deputy Minister Nel and others – if they’re here ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber, I can hear you from here. You may converse, but please don’t disturb the speaker at the podium.


Ms D SENOKOANYANE (Gauteng): I would like to recognise the MECs present here, members of Salga, permanent and special delegates, and ladies and gentlemen.


Let me start by expressing my appreciation of the opportunity to participate in this debate on behalf of the Gauteng Provincial Legislature, as we consider the report on the Provincial Week which was held from 8 to 12 September 2014, under the theme “Together making service delivery work for our people”, which is, I think, our business.


We have just recently commenced the fifth legislative term, we are celebrating 20 years of democracy, and a lot is expected of all of us. This Provincial Week programme could not have come at a better time as it coincided with an important phase, just as our members of the executive completed their 100 days in office, so it was like a baptism for them.


As we all know, service delivery has become a buzz-phrase and we dare not ignore it. In Gauteng we have accelerated our political mandate of promoting meaningful public participation as a mechanism to ensure the involvement of all citizens in the governance processes of the province. This will also enhance our oversight and lawmaking capacity.


The Premier of Gauteng Mr David Makhura has set the tone, and drawn the direction map for his executive council. The three key guiding principles are radical transformation, modernisation, and industrialisation. Likewise, the Gauteng Provincial Legislature has committed itself to ensuring that these principles are adhered to as we go about addressing the needs of the people. What better way to kick off the new mandate?


Poor service delivery has been one of the biggest challenges raised by various communities, accompanied by a series of protests, some of which have been violent and some characterised by destruction of property. It is also a matter of concern that Gauteng has had the largest number of service delivery protests in the country in the last decade, and what is even worse is that they have seen a huge increase in the period January to July 2014.


There is no doubt then that a radical approach is necessary if we are to succeed in addressing this challenge, and the premier has actually declared war on poor service delivery. He has introduced what is referred to as a service delivery war room, a new concept which we have all embraced.


The office of the premier cannot be expected to implement the programme on its own. All departments need to come on board and play a role, and ensure that services are effectively provided at all levels.


The programme, as expected, focused on municipalities, as they are the ones at the coalface of service delivery, and coming together as spheres of government provided a platform for sharing experiences and approaches to addressing challenges.


The communities we serve expect service delivery and it is a collective responsibility to provide it, irrespective of where we are located. The NCOP permanent delegates are part of the provinces and therefore stand to benefit from initiatives such as these, so that they can participate from an informed position in raising issues. Likewise, members of the legislatures and municipal councillors benefit from this exercise, as they are alerted to issues that they may not have been aware of and can begin to intervene where necessary.


Presentations by Salga, the provincial Auditor-General and different municipalities gave a good picture of what is happening in the province and this has provided a platform for the adoption of joint strategies, mainly mutual support.


Poor communication at some levels was identified as a big challenge and needs to be addressed. An example was that of Salga and municipalities – I’m glad they’re here - where a gap was evident in their respective presentations, and therefore co-ordination is to be strengthened so that their reports are not in conflict with one another.


Salga was also said not to be taking its rightful place in participating in the activities of the NCOP, and hopefully this shortcoming will be a thing of the past following the engagement that took place.


The presentation by the Auditor-General was an eye-opener for everybody. It was also encouraging in that it reflected improvements in audit outcomes in the areas of irregular and unauthorised expenditure, and particularly a huge improvement in the area of fruitless and wasteful expenditure, although this varied from one municipality to another. It was also a wake-up call to those municipalities that were performing rather poorly, and hopefully some of them learnt best practice lessons from those doing better.


The challenge of Operation Clean Audit remains with us and it is never going to go away. Therefore there is no option but to soldier on and do our best.


We also need to be clear about the fact that a high level of service delivery does not necessarily translate into positive audit outcomes, as was implied in one instance, but rather speaks to resource management and compliance issues. It is not an impossible task yet, if one looks at the current patterns, there is evidence of serious challenges of noncompliance with legislation, Treasury regulations, policies and other procedures, as well as a failure to implement programmes in line with predetermined objectives.


The big question is why this is continually happening, even after the Auditor-General has raised these matters over a number of years? There are the tools available and there is really no excuse in many instances, as it is up to us to make use of them. There are legislation and Treasury regulations to address issues of irregular expenditure and unauthorised expenditure, and we should not be grappling with them. It is simply a matter of compliance.


I believe that there are individuals who are skilled senior managers and leaders who should be taking responsibility and ensuring that procedures and processes are followed.


An important phenomenon is that the public out there, including the media, need to be educated about the meanings of the concepts of irregular, unauthorised, fruitless and wasteful expenditure, as these are often use interchangeably, as if they mean that people have stolen money. More than once I have seen news headlines reflecting unauthorised expenditure as if it means theft of resources.


The presentation by the MEC for co-operative governance, traditional affairs and human settlements on the state of municipalities really assisted us in looking at the bigger picture and in the identification of challenges so that we can assess ourselves as a province. Indeed, we did learn that we are the main contributor to the country’s service delivery protests, but more of a concern was what I have mentioned regarding the increase in the last seven months. We obviously need to do some serious work to determine the reasons for this situation and our engagement with communities needs to be raised to a higher level.


The key areas related to service delivery that were highlighted were housing and electricity. Can it be that our services have deteriorated or have we raised more expectations which we are unable to honour? Another reality is that some studies have shown that Gauteng is leading in terms of service delivery and general quality of life of its citizens, and this has also been identified as a possible reason for the influx of people from other provinces and the continent seeking a better life. Irrespective of the reasons it is a task which all of us need to handle.


The NCOP, with the help of the provincial legislature, has identified key sites at the Sedibeng District Municipality to be visited as part of oversight, and this process was quite a revelation in that it provided an opportunity to have a number of challenges brought to the attention of everyone, including the municipality itself.


In the area of housing two sites were visited, one of which was the Savannah City mixed housing development project, which will be implemented over an estimated period of 10 years. This project has the potential to bring economic benefits to the local community and the province, as it is said that the project will yield about 50 000 job opportunities, although one should note that not all of them are going to be permanent jobs.


A social housing project which is at the old Vereeniging Hospital was visited, and it is important to say upfront that this was a very depressing situation. People living there seem worse off than those living in shacks. The building itself is an absolute hazard, a disaster in waiting, and it looks like it can collapse at any time. No basic services are being provided because it is not zoned as a residential area, and the reality is that it poses a real danger to the people, who have nowhere to go.


An additional threat is that criminals also use this building as a hideout, as anyone can simply allocate themselves a unit, and this therefore seriously compromises the safety of the residents. A primary school is also located nearby, and the welfare of the young learners is not guaranteed.


On a positive note though, the MEC for co-operative governance, traditional affairs and human settlements has taken it upon himself and his department to provide some services. On becoming aware of the conditions at this site the MEC decided to act immediately, and 20 mobile toilets were delivered on 9 September, security was organised, and he convened a meeting which was attended by local community leaders. This is but one example of how support can be mobilised if different spheres of government work together.


As these are temporary relief interventions, it is imperative for the municipality to act fast and deal with this situation, and particularly the provision of clean water, which is a big challenge. The relocation process should be expedited in order to provide permanent relief.


The Evaton Renewal Project has also been an ongoing process over many years, but there remain a lot of challenges, mainly with long delays in its completion. The infrastructure in the area needs attention, particularly the roads, which are full of potholes and some of which are flooded in rainy weather. The planned road network infrastructure is also not progressing as expected.


The Vereeniging and Evaton SAPS are also facing challenges of space, inadequate resources and workload, while having to deal with high levels of crime. Both police stations have a serious problem with drug abuse and dealing ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon member, try to round up. You can round up. I’ll give you a minute.


Ms D SENOKOANYANE (Gauteng): Okay. The Sebokeng Hospital is a regional hospital which caters for the whole Sedibeng region and provides various specialised services. But the infrastructure is in such a bad state that there’s a possibility that it will have to be demolished in the near future, because repairing it is not cost-effective.


The last thing is the Bophelong Intermodal Public Transport Facility, which is standing there as a white elephant. R30 million has been spent on this, but there are a lot of disputes between the taxi associations and the municipality. Although it was indicated that there was consultation before the erection of the facility, the taxi associations are fighting with the municipality.


On the whole the Provincial Week can be viewed as a success, and what remains is the implementation of the interventions and monitoring progress in the different situations. We have to adopt a radical transformation approach if we hope to address some of the challenges faced by the communities we serve. I thank you. [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. I now call on the hon Singh. For all those who are coming up here for the first time, they should look to their right and they will see the time. The time that has been allocated to you can be seen on your right. So that makes it simple. Hon Singh.


























Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 136









Mr A SINGH: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy Minister and hon members, the permanent delegates from KwaZulu-Natal in the NCOP, together with members of the KwaZulu-Natal provincial legislature, met with the MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs, hon Nomusa Dube-Ncube.


We reported to the delegation the state of the service delivery in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal on behalf of the Premier, Senzo Mchunu, who was away in Ugu district with the provincial Cabinet on an Operation Sukuma Sakhe Cabinet visit.


Operation Sukuma Sakhe, a KwaZulu-Natal provincial government initiative, promotes government service delivery in communities in a more integrated way, and thrives on the principles of social mobilisation, whereby service delivery is achieved through partnership with communities, stakeholders and government. It also ensures and enhances access to government services, whereby government services are brought close to the people at ward level.


Chairperson, this is the People’s Parliament, and we are here to serve our people who voted us into our positions. Without their votes we would not be here.


The NCOP acts as a conduit that links the provinces with the national Parliament. The NCOP is referred to as the House of the wisest and the coolest headed. Sparks will fly in the NA but crucial decisions are taken forward here.


It is for this reason that the NCOP undertook the Provincial Week. This year the theme, “Together making service delivery work for our people” is a powerful slogan. The Provincial Week took place from 8 to 12 September.


The NCOP delegation from KwaZulu-Natal focused on Durban and surrounding areas. We visited the KwaZulu-Natal Children’s Hospital, the McCord Hospital, the Mansel Road Market, the Phoenix Police Station, a water purification works in uMhlanga, and P577 Road, which is a billion rand road project that links two communities. There was also a public meeting in Chatsworth at the Chatsworth Youth Centre.


The report, which each and every hon member has, details the information about what happened during the Provincial Week in KwaZulu-Natal.


On the first day we received a briefing by the MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs, hon Nomusa Dube-Ncube, about the state of the service delivery in the province. We are indeed happy with the progress that the province has made in its endeavours to deliver services to the people of KwaZulu-Natal.


The new administration is continuing where the previous administration left off, in unquestionable commitment to bettering the lives of people in the province of KwaZulu-Natal. Nothing happens overnight, but many people in KwaZulu-Natal do have a good story to tell. In this regard, piped clean drinking water, electricity and housing are on the list for the people of KwaZulu-Natal. There are challenges, but they appreciate the efforts of the government of the day, which is bettering its service delivery.


The public meeting which I chaired in Chatsworth was characterised by a spirit of openness and frankness. People came out in great numbers to make their voices heard. They spoke without fear or favour. After all, section 16 of our beloved Constitution guarantees all of us freedom of expression. The Mayor of eThekwini Municipality and high-ranking officials were present to hear at first hand what community members had to say. I can proudly reveal in this Council today that thanks to the NCOP Provincial Week, people in Chatsworth are now seeing desired changes. Some of the challenges highlighted needed urgent solutions.


The Deputy Mayor promised during the public hearing that there would be a follow-up meeting. This meeting has duly taken place. This demonstrates that the eThekwini Municipality does not make empty promises, but makes a commitment and fulfils it. We can reveal that the following has happened since we had the last public meeting in Chatsworth.


A follow-up meeting held at the same venue, Chatsworth Youth Centre, was chaired by a member of the provincial legislature, hon Maggie Govender. The eThekwini Metro delegation was led by the city manager and heads of department. At the initial meeting the community raised issues of concern, such as land invasion, crime, substance abuse, illegal dumping and local councillors missing in action. The city manager revealed that the metro had put a plan in place to deal with the community’s complaints in an effective and efficient manner.


The eThekwini Metro committed to the following: an area-based management approach plan which would assist in prioritising issues identified, and the establishment of a joint municipal-civic forum to meet on a bimonthly basis.


Since the initial meeting the city has done a number of things in its endeavours to address the issues raised by the community. Repairs to the existing crematorium facilities are under way and an investigation into the establishment of a third crematorium facility has commenced.


The city is exploring the possibility of using metro police on mounted horses to keep an eye on the Silverglen Nature Reserve, the community is looking forward to working with the police in dealing with crime issues, and there is the fencing of the Silverglen Nature Reserve.


The city will renovate the dilapidated flats with cracks, which are an eyesore, and they will find temporary shelter for affected members of the community. A team has been sent out to the community to look at all the flats in a bid to identify those which require repairs.


They are also looking at introducing a programme of the EPWP, whilst addressing challenges of the community and also creating jobs by getting people to help clean up in order to address the litter and illegal dumping problem.


The city is also looking at putting in speed humps in order to curb speeding in the area. Water leaks are being attended to. The pothole issue on provincial roads is being sorted out in consultation with the provincial department of transport, community safety and liaison.


Land invasion in some areas has led to the mushrooming of informal settlements. The city is considering seeking a court order to remove land invaders and illegal occupants. The city is also looking at eliminating transit camps by 2017-18 – there are more than 10 000 people living there. The city is also looking into a review of the policy governing the issue of housing, where there is a huge backlog. As for the cutting of water and electricity, it is being dealt with on an individual basis.


The city manager has committed to the metro’s constant interaction with the community of Chatsworth. As this is the case, there will be another meeting next month to assess the progress made thus far in addressing and dealing with the issues of the community.


The Chairperson of Salga and the Deputy Mayor of eThekwini, Cllr N Shabalala, stressed the importance of the NCOP visits and welcomed future visits.


The report on the state of eThekwini Municipality was that the municipality was fully functional and had a rapid response team to deal with substance abuse and vagrants in the city centre.


The Deputy Mayor reported that the municipality had initiated a Masakhane programme to disseminate information from the municipality in order to provide the community with progress reports on issues and concerns that had been raised. In some instances Metro news was also used as a means to further complement the dissemination of information.


In the fight to curb water loss, public education teams have been deployed to educate the public regarding the negative impact of water wastage, a precious commodity throughout the world. The provincial department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs is playing a vital role, with local government, in the rural areas in implementing water supply projects in the northern regions of KwaZulu-Natal.


The Minister of Water and Sanitation was in Jozini a few months ago to open the Jozini Dam water usage project. This is one of the largest dams in our country and the people of that region were not allowed to draw water from this God-given facility. This was of the making of apartheid government, where white farmers were allowed to own the dam and deprive local people of fresh water, which they could not use but only look at and walk by. [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I call the hon Masango. I am going to do exactly as the Chairperson does. I am going to be kind to visitors. However, hon members of the NCOP, I am going to be strict with you, as I have done with hon Singh.





















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 137









Ms B S MASANGO: Chair, for a minute I thought I was going to be a guest speaker at an ANC anniversary of sorts where people were not talking to the issue of the day but just telling us how good the ANC is.


Anyway, on 9 September I attended my first Provincial Week in Gauteng, which is the province that I represent, and the theme, which was “Together making service delivery work for our people”, was an apt one, except that I had an unfortunate distortion of this apt theme in what I experienced in this ANC-led province.


This made me question the purpose of the Provincial Week. Is it merely an opportunity for provinces to parade the projects that are socially engineered to get a rubber stamp from the NCOP? Are we as the NCOP members making any valuable contribution in provinces when we conduct a Provincial Week? What purpose do we serve with these provincial weeks that we are mandated to undertake?


As delegates we were invited to suggest sites to be visited, with a request to Gauteng province to produce the final programme. Our suggestions were not taken into consideration, and this was our first impression, which set the tone for this Provincial Week. [Interjections.]


Premier David Makhura outlined the week ahead. He elaborated on the theme, with a particular focus on service delivery protests. The programme was to cover a wide range of integrated interventions from various departments. We would then engage and listen to communities about their experiences on the ground. I was very optimistic at this stage, as this was the direct mandate of Provincial Week.


Then, in a formal meeting without communities, robust and frank discussions ensued at the Gauteng legislature. We were interrogating the strides made and the persisting challenges of service delivery. The municipalities presented the status of their delivery plans and the plans they had made to increase the level of service delivery in the province. This was again encouraging, until we actually went out to meet the people and see the sites.


I picked up from the local community representatives that some of the basic services that they had waited for for years were only provided the day before our visit. The Gauteng government diluted many of our site visits by creating an unrealistic state, not allowing us to assess the true extent of the need in order to estimate the scope of the intervention.


With every visit the delegation were made to scurry along and to move on to the next destination. No time was allowed to engage with the people. I’m inclined to think that we were like sheep herded from one point to another, and that the wool was also pulled over our eyes, so that we did not see the real issues. [Applause.]


The Sedibeng District Municipality, for example, is a perfect microcosm, which replicated so many other municipalities in Gauteng. Here we had an opportunity to engage with the residents. I hope my hon colleagues who also represent Gauteng are able to echo the challenges that I saw and heard during Provincial Week.


During the community meeting we got to hear the true state of municipalities from the questions asked by community members. The main service delivery concerns that they had were in housing, employment or unemployment, electricity and water, many directly linked to the national departments.


Here is a very small sample of some of the issues that came out of the community meeting. These issues ranged from the fact that the local residents reported illegal occupation of houses, to the fact that money was set aside for housing, but had gone missing with no houses in sight. In Sedibeng, for example, we heard about employment being reserved only for outsiders, so that the municipality could save on costs. We were told about potholes in major roads leading to health facilities like the Vanderbijlpark clinic, and the fact that education facilities like the Boiketlong Primary School were run down and dilapidated.


We could not engage with these issues or even establish facts. There was no commitment to getting to the bottom of these issues. When then, I ask, is the constructive management of the concerns of communities going to take place? Where is the government that responds to its people? Where are the public servants that serve their people? The Gauteng provincial legislature merely responded to the Provincial Week as to a tourist indaba, in an attempt to bury real issues.


I urge this House that we seriously rethink the concept of Provincial Week and its implementation. This is in direct response to ... [Interjections.]


Mr D M STOCK: House Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I would like to check with the hon member if the mandate she carried when she went to the Provincial Week was that of the DA or that of the NCOP?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Continue, hon Masango.


Ms B S MASANGO: Thank you, Chair. In urging this House to seriously rethink the concept of the Provincial Week and its implementation, I put forward the following suggestions.


Firstly, the timeframe needs to be extended in order to get a clearer sense of the state of the provinces. A week is by no means sufficient to execute the important work of putting communities’ needs at the forefront and making them a priority for the NCOP. In fact, one might even go so far as to say that we should be spending more time in the provinces rather than here in Parliament.


Secondly, the size of the delegation definitely needs to be reconsidered. It was bloated and it did not give us a chance to effectively interact and engage with people, thus compromising the quality of our visits.


Thirdly, and maybe I will stop hereafter, the projects and delivery should not be window-dressed. This gave a distorted view of the state of the projects. Oversight should be balanced, showing both the good and the bad of what we are seeing as the NCOP. We as a Parliament are at the coalface in the provinces. The buck stops with us.


This is an opportunity to report back on provincial activities with the aim of obtaining new mandates on issues and, importantly, ensuring that provincial governments are delivering to the people of this country. As it is currently being implemented, Provincial Week is no more than a free provincial tour, which undermines the important duty to our people. We have an opportunity now to take this challenge and to turn the provincial visits into meaningful trips, where the NCOP responds to the concerns of our people.


I believe that only if we can fix Provincial Week and assert the authority of this House in provinces and municipalities across the nation, can we fulfil our constitutional mandate and deserve the respect that comes with the title of being the delegates to the NCOP. Thank you, House Chair. [Applause.]















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 137









Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, I would like to acknowledge the presence of His Worship hon Mdabe, the chairperson of the KwaZulu-Natal Local Government Association, now called Salga KwaZulu-Natal. Colleagues, ...



... angiqale ngokusho ukuthi ngimi lapha nami, mhlonishwa Wana, ngegunya lamaqhawe omzabalazo, ayibamba ishisa ngaphansi kweqembu leNkatha yeNkululeko. Amaqhawe afana noSobaba u-Bishop Zulu, Dkt Dlomo, Dkt Sibusiso Bhengu, uMama u-Faith Xolile Gasa, uMama u-Ella Nxasana, uBaba u-Gibson Thula, uBaba u-Joe Matthews kanye nabanye.



The Provincial Week of the NCOP is one of the most important oversight tools on the programme of the NCOP. The Chairperson of the NCOP, hon T Modise, has repeatedly emphasised that this time around we must do things differently for the benefit of effective oversight and the strengthening of the work of the NCOP. Sadly, this has not yet appropriately filtered down to the other levels of the institution, below the office of the Chairperson. We hope that over time this will happen.


The KwaZulu-Natal NCOP delegation spent Provincial Week in eThekwini, like my colleague hon Singh said. There was visible and noticeable co-operation between the NCOP delegation, the provincial government of KwaZulu-Natal, the provincial members of the legislature, the provincial structure of Salga, previously known as Kwanaloga, the eThekwini Municipality, government departments, the NCOP administration and other stakeholders. As representatives of the interests of our province, the permanent delegates of KwaZulu-Natal were well received and enjoyed this co-operation.


One notices that the sites identified for our oversight were very carefully chosen by those who put together our programme. However, these did not meet the objectives of our visit to the fullest. Since this was the first Provincial Week of this fifth term of the NCOP parliamentarians, there needs to be caution in future, and those organising it need to see to it that the areas earmarked for oversight visits fit in exactly with what it is intended to achieve.


Our visit to the Addington Children’s Hospital reflected that there is a great need for more funding to be injected into that project for it to be completed.


We also visited a sanitation plant which has triggered a much desired debate in respect of the future of desalination programmes in the province. This is one debate that we feel the districts, metros and other respective organs need to confront boldly as we move forward.


We also visited the hawkers’ programmes around Durban Station in Mansel Road, where the new Department of Small Business Development needs to play a major role in ensuring their development and empowerment.


There was some outstanding business which was left with eThekwini Municipality and on which we will all need to follow up. We visited the community of Chatsworth for a public meeting. Most parts of that meeting were about the problems that people in the area have, and the nonresponsive nature of the eThekwini Municipality on the issues that communities had previously submitted to the municipality for attention. The eThekwini Deputy Mayor made a commitment to hold a follow-up meeting in Chatsworth with relevant departments, levels of government and all concerned, where the issues raised will be tackled together.


Communities throughout South Africa have a variety of problems which require an integrated approach of government from all spheres. In this regard, to our communities it more often than not does not matter whether one is a councillor, a member of the provincial legislature or a Member of Parliament.


In conclusion, the NCOP Provincial Week provides an integrated approach to handling the problems that confront the people in the different communities. I thank you.





















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 138








Ms M G MAKHURUPETJE (Limpopo): Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister Nel, my fellow members of executive councils who are here today, Members of the NCOP – permanent delegates and special delegates – members of the provincial legislatures, SA Local Government Association, distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen, ...



... ndi madekwana.



Ri perile.


Tshivenda: Aa!



Hon Chair, the NCOP Provincial Week theme, “Together making service delivery work for our people”, should be a rallying call to all public representatives. Undoubtedly the NCOP Week from 8 to 12 September 2014 accorded Members of the NCOP the opportunity to undertake oversight visits to projects and to monitor the delivery of quality service to our communities in Limpopo province and other provinces. The primary focus during these visits was to ensure that the fifth democratic government creates sustainable livelihoods.


The hon Premier of Limpopo, Premier Chupu Stanley Mathabatha, in his inaugural state of the province address comprehensively identified the substantial progress that the ANC-led government has made since 1994, as well as the challenges that still need to be overcome. He showed unequivocally that Limpopo province is better now than it was in 1994. However, despite these strides made, the challenges still facing our province are immense.


It is incumbent upon all members who constitute this Parliament as a whole, as well as this august House in particular, to see themselves as privileged, because they have been chosen from amongst millions to represent those millions to the best of their ability and to serve the people of South Africa in a manner that makes each person a proudly South African citizen.


Hon Chair, on 12 September 2014, during the NCOP debate on the state of service delivery in the province, deployed hon members raised pertinent service delivery challenges that still confront our communities. As the MEC responsible for co-operative governance, human settlements and traditional affairs in Limpopo, I was also afforded an opportunity to share with hon members a comprehensive report on the state of municipalities and Municipal Infrastructure Grant expenditure and a progress report on Operation Clean Audit 2014.


We will implement the undertaking to build housing and provide other social amenities, as the apartheid regime deprived our downtrodden people of the right to have access to shelter. The new paradigm shift from housing to human settlements will transform the landscape of housing in our country forever.


Over the past 20 years we have remained seized with the implementation of the new mandate. Without any equivocation, we state that a firm foundation has been laid for the sustainable and integrated Human Settlements objective in moving towards Vision 2030. The main focus of housing delivery strategies remains the poorest of the poor.


Hon Chair, allow me to share with this august House what strides we as a department have made in transforming the lives of the people of our province for the better.


Limpopo has increased the number of people with access to water from 78% in 2001 to 86%. Provision of electricity has increased from 62% to 87%. Our province is predominantly rural; hence there is still a huge challenge with sanitation, which is still at 38% of households having access to decent sanitation.


I wish to mention that it is noteworthy that we have identified key challenges contributing to poor audit opinions for the municipalities in the province. These are poor record management systems, poor implementation of audit remedial plans, lack of technical capacity, shortage of key staff, late submission of asset registers, poor governance and leadership, and non-compliance with laws and regulations.


As a result of this gloomy picture, the department has established the Provincial Clean Audit Steering Committee to help municipalities with financial systems and to ensure that all 30 municipalities have audit committees, internal audit units, and municipal public accounts committees, MPACs. It is also to ensure that the provincial and district municipal public accounts committee forums are established and functional, in order for them to play an oversight role in connection with audit matters. All municipalities have developed and are implementing the 2012-13 audit remedial plans.


Hon Chair, it is important for this august House to note that in Limpopo we have had a few interventions that we have made. We have put Ba-Phalaborwa Local Municipality under administration in terms of section 139(4)(b) of the Constitution, as they were unable to approve the valuation roll on time. However, we are reporting to this august House that all is well; they are going to comply in the next financial year.


Realising that municipalities employ people with no technical skills for managerial positions, the department has constituted a multidisciplinary panel comprising the provincial treasury; Salga; co-operative governance, human settlements and traditional affairs; and the affected municipalities for shortlisting and interviews.


Most senior positions that were vacant in the various municipalities have been filled, but the appointments of the Mogalakwena municipal manager, chief financial officer and senior manager for planning don’t comply with prescribed regulations; hence they were not sanctioned by the department.


This is the municipality which is doing its own thing. The provincial government tried to impose a section 139 intervention, but this matter is still before a court of law for determination. We therefore make an impassioned plea to the NCOP to assist in this matter.


As a contribution to answering the President’s call for rural development, we have managed to build over 383 houses in Muyexe village which falls under the Greater Giyani Municipality. Muyexe village is one of the sites that the NCOP delegation visited. Also, 1144 jobs were created through various projects, such as irrigation schemes, a satellite police station, rain-water harvesting, vegetable gardens, postal services, fencing early childhood development centres, boreholes drilled, and a purification plant. All these were implemented.


We also managed to build 120 housing units in Relela and we are looking forward to building more houses for deserving beneficiaries in the future.


In collaboration with the Minister of Water and Sanitation, Mme Nomvula Mokonyane, we have intervened in the water crisis in Giyani in the Mopani District Municipality.


Those hon members who have had the privilege of visiting the Giyani water purification plant and Nandoni Dam water treatment plant have witnessed the progress we are registering in unlocking some blockages, so that our communities have access to clean, potable water. Given the acute shortage of water provision in the Giyani area, the department has since solicited the intervention of the Ministry of Water and Sanitation.


Giyani Water Treatment Works supplies 55 villages, including Giyani Town, with a combined population of 229 967, and the scheme is designed to provide household connections in the town and street tap connections at the RDP level in villages. The Ministry has since intervened, and the Giyani water plant scheme has been unblocked and the majority of the people have access to water.


Hon Chair, allow me to give some good news to those hon members who came there. I would like to inform them that the hon President Jacob Zuma has since officially opened this project. That took place on 31 October 2014. [Applause.]


Due to serious challenges in regard to water in the province, the premier has established a technical task team to develop a provincial action plan to address water problems, inclusive of the Nandoni Dam in Vhembe District.


Hon Chair, the census 2013 results have also strongly illustrated the profound contribution of local government in providing development and key service gains. While acknowledging the successes, we must confront the key challenges, which continue to bedevil many of our municipalities, particularly regarding management, MIG expenditure, planning and delivery of basic services.


On financial management and improving audits, we are going to work closely with Salga and provincial treasury in rolling out hands-on support programmes to those municipalities in financial distress, who persistently receive disclaimers and adverse audit opinions. These shocking disclaimers in audit reports are unacceptable and must be dealt with as a matter of urgency. It is our collective ambition that in the near future there should be no disclaimers and adverse opinions in local government.


The President has commissioned the Special Investigating Unit, in the form of a proclamation, to investigate serious allegations of financial mismanagement in two municipalities, Greater Tubatse Local Municipality and Vhembe District Municipality.


In this context the greater hands-on support approach, Back To Basics, which the hon Deputy Minister alluded to, will be launched in the province soon. We will consolidate the gains made to date by addressing some of the fundamental constraints hampering municipalities in their quest for effective development.


We will spare no effort and use our energy to ensure that we solidify the relationship with traditional leaders in relation to issues of rural development and land agrarian programmes.


We are committed to ensuring that we have accountable, responsive and capacitated municipalities in our endeavour to accelerate service delivery to our people. Decisive action will be taken in regard to all municipalities that fail to fulfil their constitutional mandate.


The provincial government is also convening a local government summit on 26 November 2014 to address all the challenges confronting our municipalities, but also to launch the provincial Back to Basics campaign.


I want to take this opportunity, Chair, to thank the leadership of the NCOP for affording us this opportunity to debate these matters. We will continue to support the NCOP in their good work of improving service delivery and taking South Africa forward.



Ke a leboga.



Ndo livhuwa.



Ndza khensa. [Mavoko.]









Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 139









Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, allow me please to begin with a few quotations:


10.     Everyone has ... dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected.


27      (1)      Everyone has the right to have access to –


                   (a)      health care services, including (childbirth facilities);


27      (1)      Everyone has the right to ... –


                   (b)     (enough) food and water; (and)


27      (1)      Everyone has the right to ... –


                   (c)      social security (services) ...


This means support for people who cannot support themselves or their dependents.


          26      (1)      Everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.


Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, hon MECs and hon members, these quotes, of course, come from a Constitution that is not only a source of pride for the people of this great country, but was once also a source of hope for many when first adopted in 1994. Let us put aside for the moment this Constitution with its endless references to the rights of men. At the ...


Mr M T MHLANGA: Chairperson, I am rising to ask whether I may put a question to the hon member. I don’t know whether he is prepared to take it.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, it is fine. Hon Vawda are you prepared to take a question?


Dr Y C VAWDA: If there is time at the end.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): He will take it if he has time at the end. Thank you. Continue hon Vawda.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Let us put aside for the moment this Constitution with its endless references to the rights of men. At the corner of every second street in this country people are not treated as human beings. For over a century the spirit of humanity has been stifled in the so-called name of development. The victims of this inhumanity bear their scars and their chains, and it is this that makes their evidence irrefutable.


This country is a world cut in two. The dividing barriers, the frontiers, are shown by the proverbial railway line or bridge or vacant land, and this is almost always strongly policed by the security forces.


On one side is a town strongly built of stone and steel, with brightly lit tarred streets and where the garbage cans swallow all the dirt unseen, unknown and hardly ever thought about. It is a well-fed town, easy going, with a belly always full of good things.


On the other side is a world without space where people live and their houses are built almost on top of each other. They are hungry, starved of bread, of meat, of shoes, of coal and of light. The people who live here are born here and die here, and it seems it matters little to the authorities where they live or how they die.


We seek, hon members, not to emphasise the well-documented failures ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Wana, is that a point of order?


Ms T WANA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Vawda, you have forgotten to wear your red overall.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Thank you – take your seat. Hon Vawda, continue.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you. We seek, hon members, not to emphasise further the well-documented failures in the delivery of services by largely inept local government authorities, but rather to highlight to what extent this serves to further entrench the established contrasting lifestyles in this country.


As these failures continue, they further exaggerate the repression of the poor and socioeconomically marginalised. This gives rise, and rightly so, to feelings not only of despair and hopelessness, but also of envy, expressing the dreams of possession, of sitting at the oppressor’s table, of driving his car, of living in his home and, simply put, of sharing in his wealth. There is no oppressed individual who does not dream of setting himself up in the place of the oppressor.


The oppressed man, not treated as a human being, can hardly then be expected to behave according to what we regard as acceptable norms. This scenario should make us ashamed, and “Shame,” as Marx once said, “is a revolutionary sentiment.”


Revolution in this instance should not be defined as insurrection alone. This sentiment is showing itself in this country as increasing civil unrest. The increasing labour unrest, the increasing service delivery protests and, indeed, the rising incidence of crime are all manifestations of this sentiment for revolutionary change in the socioeconomic status quo. [Interjections.]


Since 2004 in South Africa we have seen a movement of local protests, which is literally a rebellion of the poor. It is becoming widespread and intense, reaching insurrectionary proportions in some cases. It appears that in the protests about service delivery and against uncaring, self-serving and corrupt leaders of municipalities, unemployed youth are participating increasingly, but also school students.


Underpinning all this, hon Deputy Minister – underpinning all this – is a sense of injustice arising from the realities of persistent inequality. The relationship between the protests and militant actions involving other elements of civilian society are limited. Let us not wait to see if this changes into something more violent and more insurrectionary in nature and let us act now.


Hon Minister, during site visits to Mpumalanga in the Provincial Week there was not only clear evidence of this, but these sentiments were expressed during the community meeting, with an emphasis on immediate and direct clear-cut intervention to improve service delivery and in so doing improve the lives of the people.


The government needs to develop infrastructure, build state capacity at the national and local levels, invest in appropriate training and use models of continuous and credible skills development programmes and, as a matter of urgency, eliminate corruption.


In going forward then, hon Chair, the government and its structures of governance will do themselves and the country no harm if they consider the role of service delivery in helping to redress the issues that reflect the unacceptable so strongly. In so doing dignity will be restored.


Please allow me in conclusion, hon Chair, just to acknowledge Frantz Fanon and Jean Paul Sartre. Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.] [Applause.]















Ms R M MTSHWENI (Mpumalanga)






Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 140








Ms R M MTSHWENI (Mpumalanga): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, for this opportunity. Hon Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs responsible for Provincial and Local Government, hon MECs from various provinces, hon Members of the NCOP, and ladies and gentlemen, I wish to say this to the hon Vawda. I was part of the NCOP visit. I am not so sure, but when you made reference to Mpumalanga you were definitely referring to the Mpumalanga that we come from. However, you were busy misrepresenting that to the House today. That needs to be corrected and that will be corrected now.


On 2 May this year South Africa celebrated 20 years of freedom. This reminded us of an appeal ... [Interjection.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon MEC, sorry! Hon Vawda, is that a point of order?


Dr Y C VAWDA: Yes, it is a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Quite a few of us were there and it was clearly reflected during that oversight visit ... [Interjections.] ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. [Interjections.]


Dr Y C VAWDA: ... at the community meeting. So it is not me. [Interjections.] Sorry, it is not me that is misrepresenting this; it is the MEC that is misrepresenting this. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members! Order! Hon Vawda, take your seat. [Interjections.] Take your seat. That is subject to debate. It’s not a point of order. Continue, hon MEC.


Ms R M MTSHWENI (Mpumalanga): Thank you very much, Chairperson. As I was saying, this reminded us of an appeal to all of us by the former President, Dr Nelson Mandela, in his speech to mark the ANC’s landslide victory after the first democratic elections. He remarked: “Let us build the future together, and toast a better life for all South Africans.” The speech punctuated a turning point for South Africa which has continued until this day, as it sets the tone for young and old, black and white, and males and females to work together for a common goal, that of a better life for all.


This august House must be reminded that at the welcoming event for hon NCOP Members in our province on 8 September 2014, the Mpumalanga Vision 2030 Implementation Framework was explicitly articulated as a plan to support government’s programme of action for the realisation of the National Development Plan.


We are working together with our municipalities to make service delivery work for our people. We are inspired by the fact that municipalities have reprioritised their budgets in order for them to be biased towards delivery of basic services. This reprioritisation has found expression in the integrated development plans and budgets that they adopted for the 2014-15 financial year.


Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has also redefined its role for providing support in ensuring that municipalities are capable of executing their developmental role in meeting the vision of the NDP. The understanding of our role is further enhanced by the actions that need to be taken with our local government in addressing the following key deficiencies: understanding the root causes of service delivery protests, like troika issues; weak community relations with municipalities; dysfunctionality; corruption; and poor audit outcomes.


Our ultimate outcome is that by 2030 we must have a developmental local government that is accountable, focused on citizens’ priorities and capable of delivering high quality services consistently and sustainably through co-operative governance and participatory democracy. In this scenario local government is at the forefront of participatory democracy, involving citizens in meaningful deliberations regarding governance and development. It must be a local government that is responsive to citizens’ priorities and enjoys a high level of trust and credibility amongst the public. It is also a local government whose employees are skilled, competent and committed to delivering quality services.


We also aspire to have a local government that is able to cost-effectively increase the quality and quantity of services and operates within supportive and empowering intergovernmental systems. Hon Chairperson, with your permission ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Sorry, hon MEC! Is that a point of order, hon Mtileni?


Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chairperson, I want to know if the hon MEC is prepared to take a question. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No! Order, hon members! Yes, that is right. Hon MEC, are you prepared to take a question?


Ms R M MTSHWENI(Mpumalanga): No. He can SMS it to Mpumalanga, Chair. [Laughter.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, the hon MEC is not prepared to take a question. Take you seat, hon Mtileni. Continue, hon MEC. Take your seat, hon Mtileni! Take your seat.


Ms R M MTSHWENI (Mpumalanga): Hon Chair, with your permission I would like to highlight in brief the plan of action for building a responsive, accountable, effective and efficient government system which is expressed in the form of an integrated municipal support plan, IMSP, that has been approved by the executive committee, EXCO. The IMSP is already linked to the objects of local government in terms of section 152 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, and the key focus areas, KFAs, for support derived from these objects are aligned to the Back to Basics Strategy.


Object 1 seeks to deal with a democratic and accountable government for local communities, which is linked to the key focus areas for good governance.


Object 2 seeks to ensure the provision of services to communities in a sustainable manner, which is linked to the key focus area, KFA, on basic services for creating decent living conditions.


Object 3 seeks to promote social and economic development, which is linked to the KFA on local economic development and spatial planning.


Object 4 seeks to promote a safe and healthy environment.


Object 5 seeks to encourage the involvement of communities and community organisations on matters of local government. The key focus area for this is public participation, where functionality of ward committees and public participation programmes by councillors are receiving attention.


Object 6 is our addition from the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, as an attempt to secure sound and sustainable management of the financial affairs of municipalities. We have also agreed at the provincial level that this function will be performed at the level of the provincial treasury, and the outcomes of the work done will be fed to both the MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs and the MEC for finance, economic development and tourism as part of reporting.


It is this area of work that will address the Auditor-General’s concerns which, amongst others, are the following: clean and/or improved audit outcomes, assets management, dealing with a high vacancy rate and improved supply chain management processes.

We have also acknowledged the three main issues that were raised by the Auditor-General which are the underlying root causes of the poor audit outcomes in municipalities. These issues have been summarised as follows: lack of consequences for poor performance and transgressions; slow response by the leadership to addressing the root causes of poor audit outcomes; and key positions being vacant and/or key officials lacking appropriate competencies for the position occupied.


The executive council has tasked the provincial treasury and co-operative governance and traditional affairs through the IMSP to take slightly different extraordinary steps so that specialised attention is focused, using the relevant expertise, in order to attend to all municipalities that show deficiencies as stated above.


These will include assigning financial experts; complying with the local government regulations, specifically Chapter 13 for the appointment of qualified senior managers for the municipalities; going the extra mile in allocating engineers; most importantly, strengthening our monthly monitoring for internal controls of supply chain processes; and forcing appropriate leadership and consequences where there has been poor performance and transgressions have been committed.


We are making inroads in the provision of basic services. Members of the NCOP visited Phola village in the area of the Mbombela Local Municipality, one of the sites of the nine steel water tanks commissioned by the provincial department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs. The two tanks each have a capacity of 750 000 litres of water. This will supplement the current supply of 1,4 megalitres of water to the estimated population of 4 600 households.


However, there remains the challenge of ensuring additional delivery capacity from existing water works. Pump stations, including bulk pipelines, have been created to keep the storage reservoirs filled on a 24-hour basis. To this end the Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant project called Nsikazi North Bulk Supply has been identified for funding. The estimated required funding is in excess of R300 million to address the requirements and ensure the effective provision of water.


All these water interventions seek to accelerate bulk water supply services and water reticulation, and to address issues of operation and infrastructure maintenance.


We must also be reminded that during the briefing of the executive mayors it was evident that this challenge cuts across all our municipalities in the province. It is for this reason that we have drawn in Rand Water to support our municipalities in accelerating the bulk water and sanitation infrastructure provision in all identified villages.


It will also be recalled that community members raised a number of similar issues related to water needs in other areas during engagements. Some of these issues are aptly captured as follows: the neighbouring wards, Wards 8 and 9, still have no water, despite the new water infrastructure; the current water supply infrastructure has aged and requires urgent repair in order to provide water to the communities; and illegal connections to the water supply network need to be addressed urgently. We have noted these issues and have already started to address them with the assistance of Rand Water. Specific projects have been identified and approved, with budget allocated for that purpose.


Let me further indicate that the provincial government, led by the department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs, will be going ahead with a programme called the War on Leaks as envisaged assistance to municipalities that are currently challenged with high distribution losses and huge leakages. The War on Leaks is targeting a few municipalities, such as Bushbuckridge, Lekwa and Umjindi, which have shown huge distribution losses that have to be curtailed immediately.


We have noted with appreciation the inputs made by the traditional leadership during the NCOP visit. They raised concerns about the inadequate time allocated to them for inputs during the drafting of legislation. We committed ourselves to ensuring that their concerns are taken into consideration in all matters of policy formulation, as an important layer of leadership who represent the aspirations of our communities in the rural areas. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Please conclude, hon MEC.


Ms R M MTSHWENI (Mpumalanga): There are processes in place to improve the participation of traditional leaders in municipal councils in terms of section 81 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act.


As I conclude, hon Chair, the responses provided here and the report tabled as part of the debate on the public service week, are mere contributions from our efforts as a province to improve service delivery and enhance the quality of life for the citizens of Mpumalanga. We may have challenges in some of the areas, which have been noted already, but with determination and the plans at hand we have the necessary confidence that they will yield positive results. I thank you. [Applause.]



Ms R M MTSHWENI (Mpumalanga)




Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 141








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me remind you that the Christmas that I’m giving to the visitors is not applicable to you.




Ms G M MANOPOLE: Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. Kei le ka nagana gore fa ke dutse mo gaufi le Mpumalanga o tla nkutlwela botlhoko. A ke tseye tšhono eno ke leboge Modulasetilo wa Ntlo, ke leboge gape Motlatsatona wa Tirisanommogo ya Puso le Merero ya setso, Balekgotlakhuduthamaga ba bal eng teng mo gare ga rona, baemedi ba leruri le ba ba kgethegileng ba NCOP, moemedi wa Salga, bomme le borre. Fa ke tshimolola go tsaya karolo mo ngangisanong e, ntetle ke re: Letsema le thata ka mongwalona, gape ke re, mabogo dinku a thebana, ka mokgwa oa ka re:



“Together making service delivery work for our people”.




Fa re tshwaragane, neelano ya ditirelo e tla tswelela pele... [Together making service delivery work for our people.]



Let’s all make our own practical contribution to making service delivery work.


The ANC has called for a second radical phase in our transition through the national democratic revolution. This must be driven through building on very important policy breakthroughs and government programmes.


In the ANC government we have worked hard together to build democratic local government that gives communities a voice and the opportunity to be active participants in the development of the areas where they live.


One of the objectives of the National Development Plan is that relations between national, provincial and local government should be improved through a more proactive approach to managing intergovernmental systems. Chapter 13, paragraph 99, clearly stipulates this action and echoes it, as outlined by the NDP.


Provincial Week serves as a key strategic mechanism and the provinces should use it to strengthen and enhance relations between the NCOP as an activist Parliament and the provinces. The NCOP Provincial Week is the epitome of an activist Parliament.


We work together to make service delivery work for our people, and during the Provincial Week programme, which was well received by the province, we were involved in interaction with the Northern Cape provincial legislature, the Northern Cape provincial government under the leadership of the Premier, Sylvia Lucas, the South African Local Government Association, the Auditor-General, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, and the communities during the community meetings and oversight.


We noted the achievements and challenges, and the fact that significant strides had been made by the government in providing basic services like water, electricity, health care, education, roads, delivery of housing units and infrastructure for health services.


We can note the state-of-the-art Dr Harry Surtie Hospital in Upington, which was recently opened by our President. The hospital will serve 40 000 people in the region of Upington in the Northern Cape. Mini clinics will also be built in the John Taolo Gaetsewe District Municipality in partnership with the mining houses.

The Northern Cape provincial government is realising the objectives of the NDP and the ANC manifesto, which speak of working together with business and other stakeholders in the establishment of the Human Resource Development Council, which includes the mines, business and government members as members of the council. Its immediate task is to develop a human resources strategy for the province which is aimed at creating employment and skills development.


Furthermore, the communities in the southeast of the Northern Cape province are targeted for services in relations to roads.


There will also be scholarships where people will benefit from the mining trust fund. This will be done in collaboration with business, government and labour in order to make service delivery work for our people.


There are challenges that are confronted by the Northern Cape provincial government, such as violence, which threatens lives and the safety, social values, and vulnerable groups like women, children and elderly people. It also affects the moral fibre of the community. There is also drug abuse, especially in the Namakwa region in the corridor of Namibia, where the economic hub activities have improved.


Service delivery protests are also taking place and the province notes that the NCOP needs to ensure that the protests are investigated and criminal proceedings brought against those who are protesting. This is because the future of the affected children is at stake if they are not investigated.


The presentation by the Auditor-General was echoed by the MEC for co-operative governance, human settlement and traditional affairs, Mr Alvin Botes. During his presentation, he noted what progress there had been. At the same time he also noted the audit report, which referred to stagnation in the city municipalities. As a result, the MEC for co-operative governance, human settlement and traditional affairs suggested that, where municipalities received disclaimer findings, the reappointment of an official after the tenure of five years was over should be prohibited. He or she should not be appointed again and this ruling should be imposed.


Municipalities are faced with varying social and economic challenges. We have noted varying facets of addressing the challenges of the municipalities. Together with Salga, we have recommended that the sector department projects and programmes must talk to the integrated development plans of the municipalities, and the sector department should attend the technical intergovernmental relations meetings and the IDP process of the municipalities.


Most of the municipalities are rural and rely on the grants because they cannot generate revenue on their own. Even though the mining houses are also assisting us, there is still a backlog and it needs to be addressed speedily.


The provincial government and the provincial legislature committed to addressing the issues raised by the communities during the community meetings, that is, those issues that were within their competence. They also agreed to elevate those issues that needed national attention and to forward further requests. A relevant select committee should be appointed in order for it to address these matters.


A national intervention is also required for water and roads, as a result of the backlog arising from the demarcation of the North West and the Northern Cape.


The railway line revitalisation in De Aar also needs urgent attention by the national government.


Furthermore, during the site visit we also noted a police station that needs urgent attention. The police station has only one door, which is a health hazard for the workers in that office.


As the NCOP we also visited the John Taolo Gaetsewe District Municipality and the Pixley ka Seme District Municipality. There we noted that they were seeking co-operation from the community, since they were saying that together they could work to ensure that service delivery was implemented.


To address the issue of public participation, there should be a resuscitation of ward committees. Community development workers should be in the forefront and issues should also be picked up in a more proactive manner.


Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has a development strategy and an approach to addressing the issues that hinder service delivery, and this resonates well with the Back to Basics approach to delivering services. Therefore, that is the reason we are saying, ...



... mabogo dinku a a thebana. [... many hands make light work.]



As I conclude, let me quote Madiba, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, when he said: “Let us remind ourselves that it is ordinary people - men and women, boys and girls - that make the world a special place.”



Mabogo dinku a a thebana. [Many hands make light work.]



Together we will make service delivery work for our people, so that together we can build better communities, as indicated by the ANC Manifesto in the local government elections. So together we will move South Africa forward.


The Northern Cape provincial government and provincial legislature support the report that has been tabled here by the province, and they will also co-operate with the total report.


What is important is for us to take South Africa forward. The issues that will be elevated by the provincial government need urgent attention, taking note of the fact that the Northern Cape province is partly rural, and therefore the chances of the province being able to raise funds are limited, even though the mines are there in connection with housing.


Let me say the following as I conclude.



Ek sê vir jou dankie. Ek is baie dankbaar vir die geleentheid wat ek gekry het in die debat. Dankie. [I would like to thank you. I am very thankful for the opportunity to participate in the debate. Thank you.] [Applause.]



























Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 142










Mr M G E WILEY (Western Cape): Chairperson, thank you very much for this opportunity. I also just want to thank the Deputy Minister for his contribution. I want to say that some 18 years ago we played in the same parliamentary rugby team. The only difference is that he has retained his youthful good looks and hasn’t got a grey hair on his head and I have lost all mine! [Laughter.] It is very good to see you again, Deputy Minister.


Chairperson, I really look forward to these visit weeks because it gives one the opportunity to see parts of one province, its people and the institutions that serve them. It is also very apparent that these areas need to be visited by provincial and national public representatives.


In this particular case the West Coast was chosen because it surrounds the emerging economic hub of the Saldanha Bay Industrial Development Zone and has major infrastructure developments under way, but also has serious governance and service delivery issues in some of its municipalities.


The touring group covered some 1 000 km, and was briefed by four municipalities and a district municipality. Additionally 19 institutions were visited, including four police stations, a hospital, a clinic, a youth facility, homes for the disabled and the elderly, a housing project, schools, agricultural projects and capital infrastructure works. The week ended off with a well-attended public meeting. I will not dwell on all these individual visits, but speak about more pressing matters.


In the words of Abraham Lincoln, “Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, for the people.” With this in mind, I cannot stress enough how important it is for public representatives, especially members of the provincial legislatures, to witness first-hand the needs of the communities that we serve. As members of the provincial legislatures who play a role in drafting and reviewing policy and legislation, as well as oversight over government departments, it is pivotal that we do so from an informed perspective. This informed perspective cannot solely be gleaned from briefings in committees, but must come from personal interaction with role players on the ground.


As far as the visits to police stations are concerned, the overarching challenge is the shortage of staff, which has reached totally unacceptable levels in the Western Cape. Earlier this month the DA spokesperson for community safety, Mireille Wenger, pointed out that the SA Police Service in the Western Cape has a shortage of some 1 500 police officers, both visible police and detectives. These are the highest percentages in the country by far. In other words, despite the service having granted posts, they are simply not filled.


At two stations, Elands Bay and Hopefield, the physical condition of the stations is equally unacceptable and unsuitable, while Clanwilliam is simply too small for the staff compliment allocated. The public is poorly serviced as a result, the best efforts of the dedicated staff not withstanding.


The Western Cape has seen crime rising for the second year in a row – a 12% increase in murder, as well as significant spikes in other violent crimes, and the situation is fast becoming untenable.


It is important for the people on the ground to engage with us. The comments by the citizenry often reflect the performance of the municipalities that serve them, and this was particularly so in the case of the Cederberg and Matzikama Municipalities. Both these municipalities delivered poor presentations, which were vague and short on facts. Key role-players were absent. Senior posts have been left unfilled and critical budgets, like the Municipal Infrastructure Grant and capital spending, are not fully spent. Promised reports failed to be delivered to the touring party.


In the case of the enormously important Clanwilliam Dam upgrade, the full economic impact assessment, including resolving the power challenges, has not been done, despite the fact that this project is under way.


In Elands Bay the controversial fishing corridor project has already spent some R6 million and yet there is very little to show for it on the ground. Complaints of selective consultation by the municipality and hand-picked beneficiaries were heard, as well as buildings being erected with no evident purpose in mind.


Of particular concern was the increasing tendency for surrounding areas to land fish produce at Elands Bay, despite its unsafe launch and docking jetty, if you can call it that, and the low capacity for policing of the resource by all the relevant authorities in this isolated town. Much better facilities and resources are to be found up the coast, and it is a mystery why Elands Bay has been chosen, rather than these safer and better equipped harbours, to land this product. This is especially so in the light of the SA Police Service briefing which we had, which highlighted marine resource poaching, and allied organised crime activity like drug smuggling as being a major concern in the area.


A desalination plant was built without an outlet, which will need an additional R15 million to construct, and that is not apparent at this stage. It remains inoperable till that time. Another R20 million will be required for operating expenses for the first three years, also not budgeted for.


Cederberg Municipality is urgently in need of a wastewater treatment works, an electrification upgrade, and an increased housing budget.


The pressure on services, from schools to health facilities, due to an influx of seasonal farm workers, many of whom are foreign, was a common refrain in all the municipalities we visited. This has led to a host of chain reaction problems in communities, including incidents of xenophobia.


Unemployment, alcohol abuse and domestic violence have led to substantial numbers of dysfunctional families and the attendant impacts on youths. A shortage of social workers was experienced in dealing with both residential clients and those who are incarcerated.


After school programmes like the very successful MOD Programme, which is the Mass participation; Opportunity and access; Development and growth Programme, are important but these need constant monitoring and marketing to achieve maximum benefit. Co-ordination regarding logistics and best utilisation of staff will need to be given.


The programmes of the Expanded Public Works Programme, which are extensively used, are impacting on unemployment, but the projects are of short duration, unskilled tasks are allocated, and the projects require competent management. Co-ordination of government databases is critical in this regard in order to get the best out of the system.


Farming activity is a key economic driver in this area and government needs to be sensitive to the fact that this is a highly competitive sector on the international market. Tax and excise incentives need to be considered, as is the case in competing countries, as well as relief for capital improvements like boreholes and housing on farms. The seasonal nature of the industry is a complicating factor, as a substantial portion of the labour force only gets employed for a portion of the year.


The Saldanha IDZ project holds huge potential for the region, but this is dependent on the ongoing co-operation, agreed planning and active participation of the whole range of government services. These must ensure appropriate skills development, tax incentives for businesses, and opportunities for local communities, as well as involved and active stakeholder participation.


The punitive Transnet tariffs were repeatedly used as an example of a lack of foresight and an integrated vision.


Chairperson, during the current financial year the Auditor-General was particularly critical of the lack of skills, poor performance and wasteful expenditure in Cederberg and Matzikama Municipalities. [Interjections.] No, they are ANC municipalities. [Interjections.]


On a more positive note, ... [Interjections.] On a more positive note, ... [Interjections.] ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members! Order, members!


Mr M G E WILEY (Western Cape): ... it is significant that the Auditor-General rated 29 of the 30 municipalities in the Western Cape as having achieved unqualified audits for the year, 11 of them clean audits. This is an improvement over the previous year. Only Kannaland received an adverse report.




Mr M G E WILEY (Western Cape): Yes, it is ANC. [Interjections.] There is no better example nationwide of service delivery, accountability, clean governance and transparency as that witnessed in the Western Cape currently.


Statistics South Africa indicates that the delivery of basic services is generally amongst the best of any of the rural areas in South Africa, as is the delivery of free services for the indigent.


Chairperson, according to the Auditor-General’s report of 2012-13, 94% of households in the West Coast Municipality have access to electricity, 96% have access to piped water and 88% have access to toilet facilities, but unfortunately in Matzikama only 70% have access to toilet facilities.


We cannot be complacent about the audit reports, however, because they do not tell the whole story, as I have already reported, and the watchword must always be service delivery.


As members of Parliament and the legislatures, we should avoid politicising service delivery at the expense of communities. We should always remain cognisant of the fact that we are mandated to ensure service delivery, so that the people can live fruitful and healthy lives.


We cannot become involved in carving out empires and using public funds for personal gain and enrichment. I agree with the Deputy Minister that we need to get back to basics and we need to redefine our roles and responsibilities.


What has become increasingly apparent is that both the public institutions and the public at large experience provincial and national public representatives largely negatively, due to the absence of direct geographic representation. Interaction is often sporadic, unstructured and lacking in accountability.


The fallback position is always to consult the only constitutionally recognised, geographically bound public representative, die arme [the poor] ward councillor. He or she is a part-time person, and this often sees him overloaded with issues covering the full spectrum of governance, from foreign affairs to barking dogs.


This is an area of service delivery that must receive urgent attention in the new South Africa, as it will see us as highly paid public representatives being more involved with the public, being more accountable for our actions, and being more sensitive to the day-to-day challenges that so many citizens experience.


In conclusion, I want to congratulate hon member Masango, and say that it is a privilege to be in the same party as her. She gave an articulate and well-rounded argument. Thank you. [Applause.]


Minister, unfortunately I have to get to another appointment, so I will not be here for your reply. I would be grateful if you would accept my apologies. Thank you very much for this.













Cllr S W MDABE (Salga)


Mr M G E WILEY (Western Cape)




Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 143









Cllr S W MDABE (Salga): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs responsible for Provincial and Local Government, hon MECs present here this evening, hon members of the NCOP, and ladies and gentlemen, the SA Local Government Association is very pleased to have participated in another successful NCOP Provincial Week programme.


The NCOP Provincial Week remains the centrepiece for the articulation of local government and provincial concerns at the national level and has provided a platform for Parliament, provinces and municipalities to work together to find common solutions in provinces and municipalities. The Provincial Week also provided an opportunity to strengthen intergovernmental relations across all three spheres of government.


Salga constructively engaged in the NCOP Provincial Week programme in all provinces, and appreciates the opportunity to reflect on the findings emanating from that week.


In regard to municipalities, which have a differentiated performance but common challenges, it is evident from the oversight conducted during the Provincial Week that the classification of municipalities – into those that are doing well, those with the potential to do well, and those that are struggling, as highlighted in the Back to Basics programme of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – is an accurate picture of the various levels of performance in municipalities.


The municipalities that were performing well had strong and accountable leadership, and effective financial and management systems in place, which resulted in effective and efficient service delivery for their residents.


Common challenges were evident among the municipalities that were struggling. These included challenges in obtaining an unqualified report with no findings, with the provincial Auditors-General highlighting problems with audit action plans that were not clearly defined or not being followed, poor performance management systems, lack of consequences for poor performance, poor supply chain management systems, lack of political and administrative leadership, vacant posts, and a lack of skills in some municipalities. It was also evident that some municipalities needed to strengthen the internal oversight function especially the role of municipal public accounts committees, MPACs.


Similar patterns were also evident in relation to problems associated with revenue collection in municipalities with high numbers of indigent populations and poor billing systems. Debt management remains a challenge, as this relates to money owed to municipalities by other spheres of government, as well as debt owed to Eskom and water boards by municipalities.


As Salga we are gratified to note that the challenges highlighted by the oversight activities of the NCOP Provincial Week programme have already been identified by Salga, and that programmes such as the Municipal Audit Support Program, MASP, have recently been initiated to assist municipalities in addressing these issues. The Municipal Audit Support Program uses a multidisciplinary approach, where we work together with other role-players to address the challenges of governance, capacity building and financial management which, if addressed, should result in improved audit outcomes.


We have also engaged both National Treasury and Eskom in order to find a solution to the issue of municipal debt, and we recently signed a memorandum of understanding and an active partnering agreement with Eskom. We will initiate a similar engagement with the water boards.


Other challenges highlighted included the problem of the lack of bulk infrastructure provision where large projects are planned, as well as ongoing issues of maintenance of infrastructure. Many of these problems point to the lack of integrated planning across the three spheres of government, as well as between various sector departments. Full participation of all role players in the integrated development plan processes of municipalities will go a long way toward addressing this challenge, as all planning and service delivery takes place in the municipal spaces, regardless of the sphere responsible for the service delivery. For instance, housing developments are initiated, yet the bulk infrastructure services necessary for such development have not been properly planned.


Hon Chairperson, of particular significance is the need to strengthen intergovernmental relations and, in particular, the supporting role required at the municipal level, as highlighted by the Provincial Week. Many of the struggling municipalities listed poor monitoring and support mechanisms from provincial and national as a challenge, particularly in relation to municipalities that are vulnerable to interventions.


Another common challenge that was highlighted was the lack of involvement of provincial and national government in the IDP processes of municipalities. Putting municipal IDP processes at the heart of policy development and implementation for all levels of government will ensure that communities will be heard and that they will be placed at the centre of decisions that affect their lives. This will also go a long way toward strengthening communication and feedback between all spheres of government and the people we serve.


On the role of Salga in oversight programmes, we are proud that as Salga we have consistently played an active role in the NCOP programmes. During this Provincial Week in KwaZulu-Natal the NCOP was hosted for three days in the discussions of this NCOP Provincial Week programme. Similarly, other Salga provincial offices have been very active in their interactions with the NCOP.


However, we take note of some concerns around the Salga relationship with legislatures in some provinces, and we commit to continuing to improve these relations as part of our overall strategy of interacting on legislative and policy issues in relation to provincial legislatures, as well as to Parliament. We will continue to engage with provincial legislatures to accommodate Salga through the amendment of the rules.


Similarly, it is important that in future editions of the NCOP Provincial Week programme, as well as the NCOP oversight programme in general, Salga is consulted on the identification of municipalities to be visited. Salga’s relationship with and understanding of its member municipalities can only add value to the oversight programme of the NCOP and provincial legislatures through identifying struggling municipalities, as well as those that have examples of best practice.


Just as intergovernmental relations are critical for improved municipal performance, so too will increased co-operation between the legislature sector and Salga be critical for successful and meaningful oversight programmes.


In conclusion, Chairperson, as the House of Parliament that brings all three spheres of government together, the NCOP is ideally placed to conduct such a widespread oversight programme as the Provincial Week. We congratulate the NCOP on a very successful oversight week and we are very pleased to have participated in the programme in all the provinces.


Let us learn from this oversight experience and focus on improving intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance going forward. It is only through working together that we can make service delivery a success for all our communities. The participation of Salga in the NCOP is an example of how strong intergovernmental relations can contribute to building stronger communities. I thank you. [Applause.]






















Cllr S W MDABE (Salga)




Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 144









Mr C F B SMIT: [Inaudible.] ... hon Chair. At one stage during this debate I was thinking that we were debating Municipal Crisis Week instead of Provincial Week. [Laughter.] When I was listening to the hon Wana, it was clear that she either didn’t understand today’s debate, or didn’t have anything good to say about her province.


Hon Singh, we are very happy that the people of KwaZulu-Natal have been responded to, but is it justified that this happens only once a year during Provincial Week?


Today we heard many praises of Provincial Week, but simultaneously we lost the core functions of our role and responsibilities as the NCOP, which are to be specialist legislatures that monitor the impact of legislation and regulations on the daily lives of our people, and to be a forum for the interests of our respective provinces.


The question is: Are we really fulfilling our functions? The answer is no.


We are spending 90% of our time on secondary responsibilities, which are oversight like Provincial Week, and other functions duplicating those of the National Assembly. We have reduced ourselves to becoming a rubber stamp of the NA, and more specifically the ANC.


In regard to Provincial Week, we can ask ourselves the same question: Is this not a money-wasting, ineffective, show-off parade instead?


We ask this looking at the massive entourage of NCOP delegates, staff, MPLs, MECs and other officials who chased their way in a convoy from one venue to the next in luxury German vehicles with blue lights, forcing everyone else off the roads. [Interjections.] All the VIPs were fed and accommodated for an entire week. In Limpopo we even took the blue light convoy to the doorstep of Mopani District Municipality to pick up the very important Mayor of Mopani! [Interjections.]


Yes, hon Chair, we did visit dysfunctional hospitals, like Letaba Hospital, where the officials were instructed by our special Chief Whip of the NCOP, who told them to tell us the truth – the whole truth. There we spent 70% of our time being briefed in air-conditioned boardrooms, while a little girl’s head was swollen to the size of a watermelon because the hospital did not have a shunt and the nurses stood there hopeless, as there was no money to purchase one.


What did we really achieve other than duplicating the National Assembly? Very little, if you ask me, and at a humongous cost to taxpayers, just to parade past the ordinary people of our provinces.


The only direct contact we had with the citizens of Limpopo was at Relela village outside Tzaneen, where the ANC tried its best to put out service delivery failure fires – which almost turned violent – while under the watchful eye of the police to protect us from the people. [Interjections.]


It is time for this House of Parliament to return to basics, as the Minister said, by ensuring that we implement checks and balances to make sure that all legislation and regulations are functional, relevant and actually deliver the outcomes they were designed for in the first place.


Hon Chair, it is a pity that the hon MEC from Limpopo has left, because whilst she was talking about clean audits, her department this year spent R20 million on court cases against Mogalakwena Municipality to force an ANC faction in. The only reason why the municipal manager and senior officials were not acknowledged is because they are not cadres from that specific faction. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]


















Mr M C MAINE (North West)






Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 144










Mr M C MAINE (North West): Thank you very much, Chairperson. We have run out of time. I am rushing to the airport, so I will try to take five minutes only to save the House some time.


The hon members Masango and Smit said that the NCOP, or the provincial departments rather, were parading around during the Provincial Week. She continued and said that the services were rendered a day before the NCOP visit.


Hon members should be alive to the fact that the government can’t stop to provide services to the people just because there is a visit from the NCOP. Also, let me say on behalf of the ANC that we don’t have any members to please. You will have heard the hon Chief Whip from the Western Cape say that that member spoke very well, while in our view the member actually said nothing. However, it is her responsibility to please the hon members. [Interjections.]


Certain hon members said that they feel that the NCOP is acting as a  rubber stamp. You are sent here by your political party, and if you don’t think that you are fit to be here, I think you have the choice to leave, because nobody is forcing anybody to be here.


We welcome the good work that the NCOP is doing and, as a former member of the NCOP myself, I think these Provincial Weeks provide an opportunity for the Council to interact with the masses of our people.


The hon member of the EFF who spoke like a poet went on and on about rights. I just ask myself the question of whether the member knows that those rights were fought for very hard, and actions of the party he represents undermine those very rights.


However, let me leave others to respond to these matters. I know that Comrade Nyambi as a former colleague, for example, will be capable of responding to other issues and talk to the issues that relate to the province where I come from.


The Provincial Week remains one of the key sections of our apparatus recognised by the NCOP to achieve its mandate of representing the country’s provinces in the national sphere of government. The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa obligates the NCOP to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government.


Within this context, therefore, we as a province welcomed the visit of the NCOP in Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality during the month of September 2014, under the theme: “Together making service delivery work for our people”. In tandem with the above, presentations were made to the NCOP delegation during the said visit by the following local municipalities: Ditsobotla, Mahikeng, Ratlou, Ramotshere Moiloa and Tswaing.


Coupled with that, the delegation heard about matters during their site visit, as well as during the public meeting, and spoke to the effect that delegation committed themselves to continuing to keep a close eye on development in the districts and the province in general.


We further acknowledge that the issues raised in all municipalities were challenges related to water, sanitation, electricity, human settlements, the state of our roads and audit outcomes of our municipalities.


Having sought advice as the provincial government, Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality remains our key focus and worrying factor. We noted the following thorny issues: the poor relations it has with the local municipalities; water and sanitation, which continue to be a huge problem; and the audit outcomes of the past three financial years, which have revealed chronic failures on the part of the district municipality, with the result that disclaimers were experienced in the district itself and its municipalities, except for Ratlou which got a qualified report.


This picture, amongst other things, warranted the invocation of section 139 of the Constitution to place the district municipality under administration on 3 September 2014 by the Bokone Bophirima provincial executive council, which also got concurrence by this House.


To this end we can confirm that since the provincial intervention in the Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality and the visit by the NCOP, steady progress has been registered with the restoration of water throughout the district, which includes the repair of infrastructure, the reduction of tankering services and the increase of permanent infrastructure, because we believe that the provision of water through tankering is inhumane and shows disdain for our people.


We are working tirelessly to seek decent dignified provision of water services to our people, because our people deserve better. That is why we subscribe to the 2014 NCOP theme, “Together making service delivery work for our people.”


We must also highlight the fact that we have consolidated capital infrastructure for water in the district, which includes new sources of water, new reservoirs and new distribution infrastructure, and the district itself has moved swiftly and embarked on an emergency repair programme to restore water flow and secure water points, providing for uninterrupted water supply to areas where water supply had been disrupted and water points previously rendered dysfunctional.


Immediately after the provincial intervention, some of the boreholes and water reservoirs were deliberately destroyed by faceless people to gain the sympathy of our people against the government – in Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality, in particular, and in areas like Dinokana and Gopane under Ramotshere Moiloa Local Municipality. We engaged community leaders, activists and councillors, who have committed to ensuring that all restored and repaired water points are protected and the authorities remain informed of any malicious or other damage to municipal infrastructure.


The Blue Drop and Green Drop processes are afoot to ensure high standards and quality of both water and sanitation in the district. These pockets of water infrastructure development complement the broader Setsokotsane Programme of the Bokone-Bophirima province led by our Premier Supra Mahumapelo, to rebrand, reposition and renew the image of our province.


As we speak, plans are under way for the next few days, to consolidate all the capital budgets for the local municipalities in the districts in order to prioritise funded water projects. In less than two months from now, service providers will be on site to kick-start the capital projects for water and all the other funded projects.


The administrator and the intervention team are currently implementing initiative measures to achieve and sustain results in respect of performance in the following key strategic areas: institutional and infrastructure service delivery; institutional functionality within the district municipality; significant improvement in the municipal audit opinion and outcomes; and significant strengthening of the financial position and viability of the municipality, and strengthening the knowledge and technical capability of the staff.


We have every reason to trust the new way of collectively doing things through the Safety, Health and Environmental Management Training Course, Samtrac, and we trust that some very good results are showing that the Setsokotsane Programme is the way forward in achieving the desired service for the people of our province. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]





















Mr M C MAINE (North West)




Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 145









Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, from the visits to various municipalities, the findings and recommendations direct this House to remind itself of the words of the late President of Tanzania, Julius Nyerere, who once said that they didn’t develop people – people developed themselves. According to Hettne, “Development concerns people, it affects their way of life and is influenced by their conceptions of the good life, as determined by their cultures”.


In order to give practical effect to the recommendations we made in the report, service delivery needs to appreciate the centrality of people as the only way to develop sustainable communities. External development partners and agencies are to support objectives chosen by the people, building communities’ capacity to manage their resources and meet their needs. Service delivery must be led by communities for their own development, with government facilitating and providing relevant information for planning and deciding. Successful service delivery demands that people be placed at the centre of development, with resources to be used to meet their own basic needs of justice, sustainability, and inclusiveness.


This approach can succeed if government and other development agencies which have to facilitate development understand the importance of people and their capacity as central, rather than placing the solution central, as seems to be the case today, resulting in disempowerment and underdevelopment, with high levels of poverty.


This means government and development agencies facilitate the process of learning, growth and development of the people themselves. The building of crèches and clinics, or the establishment of malls and other facilities, is not development if the people do not do it themselves and do not learn and grow in the process. Thus the approach advocates for facilitation of the development of people and not things.


To empower the people means to enable the people to elicit power and increase the power they have by working as a community. This will ensure that people are skilled, their confidence is built up and they develop through co-operation, sharing and mutual learning.


For the community to be able to develop themselves, they, with the support of government at all levels, are responsible for all decisions from the word go. This must include the assessment, planning and implementation of their plans.


Accordingly, the focus of development must be on the people's capabilities, potential, power, resources, knowledge and skills. This is because, amongst other things, communities understand their situation better than anyone else. They must participate in assessing their own needs. To exclude them and just impose development, as is the case today, is to deny their human dignity and expertise regarding their experience.


Participation is an essential part of development. It develops self-confidence, pride, initiative, creativity, responsibility, co-operation, sharing and working together. Without participation, development is lacking and all development efforts and the alleviation of poverty will be immensely difficult, if not impossible.


People must be enabled to take charge of their lives and solve their own problems, with government and other development agencies creating a conducive environment and facilitating. People must be enabled to develop themselves. This process of development must make communities say, “We have started it ourselves and we are able to continue with it.”


Through involvement in a variety of development activities, people can gain more knowledge and learn better practices, with greater awareness of the problems that exist, the causes behind these problems and in some cases their possible solutions. True development is more about facilitation. Thank you.



Okokugqibela, mama endimthandayo, ukuba sifuna ukulungisa izinto zoomasipala ...



 ... the Eastern Cape Province has two types of municipalities, whether you like it or not. There are the pre-1994 states, the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda, and Ciskei, which were called the TBVC states, as Mam’ uCingo says. Then there are the pre-1994 towns that were under the apartheid government. That infrastructure, Chairperson, has not been integrated into the new South Africa. That’s where the problem lies. If you go to those TBVC towns, they are congested, there is no service delivery and there are potholes. So, the government needs to have funds to integrate that infrastructure. Lastly, ...



... ukuba imali siyikhupha ngokobalo lwabemi, soze siye ndawo, Mam’ uCingo.



I agree with you again on that one. We need to come up with a proper plan for how to finance these provinces because, during Christmas and holiday time, people go to the Eastern Cape and then we have more people and we have to service those people. Thank you.





















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 145








The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chairperson, Deputy Minister, and hon MEC, the Provincial Week programme has been set as part of the commitment to building a Parliament that plays an active role in giving practical expression to the needs and challenges facing communities. It is intended to provide a forum for the exchange and sharing of ideas around service delivery issues and challenges that are facing the provinces.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, is that a point of order? Is it a point of order, sir?


Mr V E MTILENI: I just want to know if it is allowed that he serve in your Chair and at the same time he takes part in the debate. Is that allowed?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, that is not a point of order at all. The hon member is allowed to participate in debates in this House and the fact that I have taken over the Chair is to allow him to do what his province sent him to do. Please proceed, hon Nyambi.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I thought you were going to ask if I was ready to take a question, and I was going to take it. [Laughter.]


It further creates an opportunity for the NCOP, provinces and municipalities to work together in seeking solutions and coming up with innovative ways to address the needs of the people of South Africa.


Hon Chairperson, let me correct what was said by those from Mpumalanga. The unfortunate part is that I’ve even brought a book that will assist hon Vawda and hon Smit to go through.


When we had Provincial Week in Mpumalanga, it was very successful. For the first time, on the first day we met the leadership of the legislature, we met the Cabinet, and after that we met those from the House of Traditional Leaders. The following day all the municipalities were invited.


I can tell you about a very interesting part of that time, which we experienced when we went out to the communities to check on the projects. In regard to the leader of the opposition, sometimes they say we must not politicise service delivery. So we went to the sites. The hon MEC who is part of the debate was deployed somewhere in Ermelo – because of a communication problem. As members of the NCOP we insisted that the person who was supposed to be part of our group as members of the NCOP to respond to the communities and do oversight, should be the MEC. So we wanted her to come to be part of that meeting. She decided to cancel her appointment and came to the meeting to answer questions.


What they raised was very interesting. There had been the provision of water tanks, which were erected. The issue was that the Premier of Mpumalanga was the hon D D Mabuza, David Dabede Mabuza, and “D D” had been written on the tanks. It was a crucial issue, even mobilising the people to say that he had decided to name the tanks after himself! [Laughter.] However, we decided to invite the contractor in and the contractor explained that if you saw tanks with “Jojo” on them, it was because “Jojo” was the one who had created the tank. These ones were “D D” and “D D” stood for “Deon de Jager”. He was the one who had created them. So then they never had any issues to raise. [Interjections.]


I have this book with me, Samora Machel: An African Revolutionary. It speaks about three things that should never be lost. The first one, hon Vawda, is honesty; the second one is peace; and the last one is hope. Once you lose these three things ... [Interjections.] When he was facing challenges with Frelimo in Mozambique, it degenerated into three Ds. The Ds that are coming in and that I don’t want you as an hon member of this House to degenerate to are: firstly, dishonesty and, secondly, desperation. That is because once you are desperate, you become dangerous. That must not happen.


Why are you not giving credit where credit is due? One thing is for sure. All of us here agree that the Provincial Week ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, you have a question, sir?


Dr Y C VAWDA: I would like to know if the hon member will take a question.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, are you prepared to take a question?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I will round my speech off and then I will take it.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Take a question! Why are you scared to take the question?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I am not scared. I will take it. Don’t worry.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Take the question!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please continue, hon Nyambi.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): All of us ...


Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, may I also be afforded an opportunity to put a question to hon Nyambi please?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, are you prepared to take a question?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I’ve indicated that once I have the time, I will take a question. So, I will take both your questions. I am ready, more than ready.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please continue, sir.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Chairperson, with all of us being members of the National Council of Provinces, we have ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, are you also rising to ask for a question to be taken?


Mr V E MTILENI: No, I think hon Nyambi is not prepared to take either Dr Vawda or hon Julius’s question. He is prepared to take mine.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me take yours.


Mr V E MTILENI: Are you prepared to take mine?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I am ready.


Mr V E MTILENI: Okay. Why do you refer to that book when you address hon Vawda?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir. You have posed your question. Please take your seat. [Interjections.]


Mr V E MTILENI: Is it about Samora Machel, or is it about something else?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, you have put your question. Ntate, tswella pele. [Continue, sir.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am referring to an African revolutionary because I want to assist us as members. We should know that at all times we have to be honest. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): One thing is for sure, irrespective of political affiliation, when we started here all of us – all of us – said that South Africa in 2014 was better than it was before 1994. That is a fact. If we agree that the South Africa of 2014 is better than the one of 1994, why are we being dishonest? When a member of your party was at the podium, he did not give credit where it was due.


The report that I have about the Provincial Week indicates, Deputy Minister, that we do have good things that are happening in provinces. As members coming from different provinces, let’s assist one another and learn during Provincial Week about the good things that are happening in other provinces. Let’s make sure that we assist people who have sent us here to represent their interests.


I am raising the issue of honesty, hon Mtileni, because if you are going to be honest at all times, that is going to make you efficient, and make you acknowledge the good things and give credit where it is due. That is the reason I am talking about honesty. [Applause.]


Hon members, the feedback we got from the previous Provincial Week, noted the following. Some challenges were resolved during the provincial programme, as relevant stakeholders were present to address matters, and some challenges were raised. Progress reports were requested through questions to the relevant members of the executive during NCOP question sessions.


The Moloto Road project has since been registered with the Department of National Treasury, a project steering committee has been established and a project office has been launched. The Minister of Transport has held public consultations on the matter and both the provincial government and the municipality were involved in the process.


Chairperson, in Mpumalanga, for example, the delegation, together with all partners, recommended the following things. The first was to improve the structured engagement between the provincial legislature and the NCOP. I think that could even assist delegates from other provinces. Relevant committees should be available to participate in NCOP activities. There should, at all times if possible, be a deployment of speakers from the province, as is the case today, and that is the outcome of those engagements. Permanent delegates should develop a culture of continuously briefing the legislature on NCOP debates and activities, over and above formal correspondence with the Speaker.


More constructive engagements need to be encouraged, instead of provinces rushing to evoke section 139, especially in the absence of a clearly defined protocol or mechanism that implements that section of the Constitution. Objective and credible proof must be provided that section 154 of the Constitution has been implemented adequately, before section 139 is imposed.


The NCOP through its committees and delegates must provide guidance where co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations practices are undermined by departments and government entities at the provincial level.


Capacities of provinces to support municipalities need to be beefed up and improved, including the precise supporting role of the SA Local Government Association.


The NCOP, together with the National Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, must evaluate the effectiveness of section 139 in affected municipalities in order to avoid and prevent the recurrence of the same in the future.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Essack, is that a point of order?


Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, I just want to check with hon Nyambi, through you, which province he is referring to now.




Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, will he take a question? Will hon Nyambi take a question, hon Chairperson?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have already put your question.


Mr F ESSACK: I ask because he is generalising. I am not sure where we are.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon member ... [Inaudible.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am rounding off ...


Mr F ESSACK: Please get to the point.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): ... and then I will take the three of you.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Essack, I am presiding.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): At all times, as we move forward, we have to remember the words of our late former President, Tata Mandela in 2007. His words should be a challenge to all of us:


Massive poverty and ... inequality are such terrible scourges of our times ... they have to rank alongside slavery and apartheid ... Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice. It is the protection of a fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life.


Hon Chairperson, I am ready to take on the three of them. [Laughter.]




Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, the hon Nyambi is insinuating that I have been dishonest. I would like to know from him exactly what I have been dishonest about. What I mentioned about the community meeting is that at the community meeting people indicated, and very clearly, how they had been oppressed socioeconomically and this came about in the community. This is the reference I made to the Mpumalanga site visit. There was no other reference; so what is his implication? Why is he insinuating that I have been dishonest?


I would also like to know in what way I am dangerous. He is insinuating that I am dangerous.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have made your point, sir. The second person was hon Julius. Hon Julius, look at the mic in front of you.


Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, Chairperson. It is also on the honesty comment. Hon Nyambi, would you say that the leaders in your party are honest? Do they subscribe to the teachings of Samora Machel? Or are you merely protecting number one in your honesty? Thank you, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Chairperson. Let me start with the hon Vawda and why I dealt with the area of honesty. When you were here at the podium, you failed to acknowledge what happened during our Provincial Week. This is the worst of what happened. When I took the oath as a Member of Parliament and had been given the Constitution and assisted to understand it better, I was told that at all times I had to be truthful to the Republic of South Africa. You went even further. Chairperson, I can state at this podium, that when we went to the public meeting, I even assisted him to indicate that service delivery had nothing to do with affiliation to a party – we should work together because people are interested in service delivery. Hon Essack can also be a witness to that, because he does not come from the party that I come from. Unfortunately my time has expired, but I was ready to take your question. [Time expired.]


Dr Y C VAWDA: But that’s not dishonesty. That is not dishonesty! [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, members! [Interjections.] Order!


Mr J W W JULIUS: [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, order!
















Tuesday, 18 November 2014                  Take: 146












The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson and hon members, thank you very much for what I think has been a very rich and stimulating debate in many different ways. I’d like to thank all speakers who participated in the debate, but particularly the members of Team Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – the MECs of North West, Limpopo and Mpumalanga – and also the representative of the SA Local Government Association.


What stands out in this debate is that there might be many things that divide us and there might be many things that we differ on. However, I think there were some strong areas of agreement that came through.


Firstly, we are all saying that it’s important for us to have a well-functioning intergovernmental relations system that can serve as a basis for integrated and collaborative service delivery.


Secondly, we are all saying that we recognise the fundamental importance of local government and municipalities for basic service delivery, and therefore we all support the approach of getting back to basics.


An important part of that is also the shared commitment that was demonstrated here to ensuring that the resources we need for basic service delivery should be well managed, and hence a commitment to ensuring that we have positive audit outcomes.


I think we as public representatives also need to reflect on how we go about debating these matters, because these matters are the kinds of matters that are of fundamental importance to the future of our nation. They are not issues on which we should be engaged in small politicking.


Nations across the world have moved in the same direction as us in developing and adopting national development plans. Those are plans that must unite a nation around a certain basic minimum programme. There are things outside of that programme that we can fight about and argue about, but we need to unite around that basic minimum programme.


In regard to our National Development Plan, there really six pillars. We are saying, firstly, that we need to unite all South Africans around a common programme to achieve prosperity and equity; secondly, we need to promote an active citizenry in order to strengthen development, democracy and accountability; thirdly, we need to bring about faster economic growth, higher investment and greater labour absorption; fourthly, we need to focus on the key capabilities of the people and the state; fifthly, we need to build a capable and developmental state; and last, but definitely not least, we need to encourage strong leadership throughout society to work together to solve problems.


I would like to propose, through you, Chairperson, that perhaps during next year’s Provincial Week we have a strong element of focusing on the back-to-basics approach, and we do an assessment of how far we’ve gone with that approach.


This has been a very rich debate in terms of references to literature. We’ve had Shakespeare, we’ve had Ho Chi Minh, and we’ve had Julius Nyerere, Samora Machel, Oliver Tambo, Frantz Fanon and Jean-Paul Sartre. The hon Vawda raised issues of apartheid spatial geography. I think that’s a fundamental point. However, in dealing with that, I would like to quote from a writer who is perhaps slightly less well known, called Dialego, who in the mid-1970s wrote a work called Philosophy and Class Struggle. Dialego says:


Fused together into a single philosophy, dialectics and materialism enable us to increasingly change the world once we have understood the laws of motion which are at work in its development. Dialectics alerts us to the need for change, materialism, to the importance of bringing this change into line with the objective circumstances which actually prevail.


Supposing, for example, we misapply dialectical materialism by stressing dialectics at the expense of materialism, what is likely to happen? We will come to imagine, as ultra-leftists typically do, that our mere desire or “will” to change things is much more important than the actual conditions which have to be changed. The result? A tendency to pay insufficient attention to the precise character of the situation in which we find ourselves, the kind of popular support which exists at a particular time for a particular action, the real balance of forces between ourselves and the enemy, etc.


This kind of mistake, though based in philosophy, may have and on occasion has had, practical consequences of the most damaging kind.


Therefore, when we deal with fundamental issues, like the ones that are addressed in this report, and the one that you’ve referred to relating to transformation of apartheid spatial geography, we must realise, as the National Development Plan says, that there are no quick fixes. There are powerful interests at heart. However, if we work systematically and boldly, then we will transform those things, just as we have overcome many of the challenges and obstacles that we have had in the past.


Chairperson, I thank you very much for the opportunity to have participated in a very rich debate. [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir.


Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.


Declaration of vote:

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, the hon Khawula made the assertion that he didn’t understand the selection of eThekwini as a city for Provincial Week. He therefore implied that we as a province did not want to undertake our mandate and obligation to do oversight and make the people of eThekwini participate.


Therefore, we wish to make a declaration that metropolitan eThekwini is the biggest host of a large number of the population of KwaZulu-Natal.


The selection of the projects and the stakeholders to interact with was based on the justification of the needs of our people.


Firstly, there was the project to visit reticulation and waste water management, which affected the people of Phoenix, Waterloo, Inanda and KwaMashu. This was over and above the KwaZulu-Natal legislature’s opposition parties moving motions in the legislature for an oversight visit to the place.


We further made a visit to the road which connects Inanda, Phoenix, Pinetown and Westmead, which is an industrial hub of the city of Durban.


We also made a visit to the Addington Children’s Hospital, which was closed by the apartheid government in 1994. The Addington Hospital is the Children’s Hospital.


Mr J J LONDT: Chairperson, on a point of order: I don’t know if you can make a ruling. We can read all of this in the report. Is he making a declaration or rereading the KwaZulu-Natal report to us at the moment?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, the opportunity to make declarations has been given to parties throughout the day. Declarations are actually a three-minute, mini debate speech, which parties can choose to avail themselves of, or not. In this particular instance, KwaZulu-Natal is the only province that has raised its hand to do so. There are no Rules or limitations to what you say in your declaration, and that is why I am allowing the member to continue. Hon member, you have 55 seconds left of your three minutes for the declaration.


Hon Mtileni, do you have a point of order?


Mr V E MTILENI: Yes, Chair. I just want to check if it is not time-wasting for the hon Nzimande, because ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon Mtileni. Please take your seat. Hon Mtileni, please take your seat! [Interjections.]


Mr V E MTILENI: ... we didn’t have a high-level gossip. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat.


Mr V E MTILENI: To me, I thought it was high-level gossip because the hon member has already gone and is not listening to this.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Please take your seat, sir. Hon members the point of order cannot be sustained because this is the time for provinces to elect to or to elect not to use the space they are granted to make their declarations before they vote.


The hon Nzimande started off by saying that in their Provincial Week, in their delegation, this matter was raised. He then went on to make a declaration on the points of disagreement from that delegation from KwaZulu-Natal. So, the hon Nzimande is in order. Please continue, sir. You have 55 seconds.


Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. We visited human settlements. We also looked at the road that connects to the inner city so that the working class are able to get to work easily with no time delay.


We met with the minorities in eThekwini at the Chatsworth meeting to take on board their concerns. I don’t want to be too controversial, but members of the committee were complaining about the participation of those councillors who are in the main opposition parties in this Parliament in that Chatsworth meeting, and their availability to undertake their needs and aspirations. The commitments, as alluded to by Mr Singh, spoke to that.


Therefore, we declare that this city chosen for the Provincial Week was in order. I thank you. [Time expired.]


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I just want to say that the Provincial Week has thrown little things in our way.


One of the very early issues which came up also came up, I think, in this debate. It was touched on here and there, sometimes not specifically, but sometimes very directly. This is how delegations of the NCOP conduct themselves once they are on official duty. Members are reminded that when they go out there, they go as a delegation of the NCOP, and not as different parties that can go ...


... niye kukrwempana phambi kwabantu. [... and oppose each other in the presence of the people.]


So, whatever it is, what we admired when we were getting the reports was an assertion by the Western Cape to the effect that: We are different. We are opponents. We had times, as the Western Cape, when we locked ourselves into sessions when we disagreed, but we went out there, united as a delegation of the Western Cape during this week. That is what the Western Cape said.


It is important that at all times you remember that it is not your own quotes that you are leading into and that the people actually get annoyed when parliamentarians bring up their issues which are catty in front of them. They are there for their issues, which they want to report. They want to see public representatives paying attention to them and taking them seriously, and bringing their issues here unanimously because they were all ears to hear those people. So, I think that we need to need to get into that.


We also need to look at the second matter that bothers me. It is the matter of cellular telephones that ring during the sittings of this House. I want to say that it is one of the small issues to do with the decorum here. It is not about the suit, hon members. It is not about how expensive your tie is. It is about how well you conduct the business of representing the people in this House that we will begin to judge you on. So, I am going to ask you to respect us enough to put your phones off in this House. On this matter, we will try, as we review the Rules, to have a discussion there, but it would really help us to begin to take the House seriously.


I also want to say that in the last two weeks I have received different delegations from different parties in my office. In particular, there were a delegation from the DA and a delegation from the EFF. In both instances the complaints were almost the same. It was the issue of time - of allocated times not actually being enough for members to do justice to what they have to do to represent their constituencies. In the second instance, again related to time, it was a complaint against us, the presiding officers, that we sometimes unfairly cut the times allocated to members who are at the podium. There was also an issue from the EFF, in particular, on the replacement on the speakers’ list of a member.


Now, we need to take all of these matters and discuss them soberly. The usual rule of thumb is that when a party is aware that its member is not going to be in the House on a particular day, they make arrangements for another member of their own party to take care of their business. It would be a new thing in the NCOP if we were to begin to say to parties they cannot make that arrangement, because we would be setting a precedent that says to all of us, once a member of Party X is not in the House, Party X forfeits the time. I don’t think we are ready to go into those kinds of things.


The other complaint that was again brought was the attitude of the presiding officers, including the Chief Whip, to certain parties in this House. I have undertaken to convene a meeting and to deal with this.


I raise this because the issue of speaking time for all the parties is one of the issues - members will be aware of this – on which the Leader of Government Business met with the leaders of parties that are represented in the National Assembly today. Amongst the issues that were brought to the table was the allocation of speaking time to the different parties.


It is also important to say that the Leader of Government Business was able to get into the meeting which, from what I have heard and from the report-back that the Leader of Government Business has given to me and to the Speaker of the National Assembly, looks like it is beginning to address certain issues which have been bothering us in the last few weeks.


Amongst the temporary stays is that all the processes in the National Assembly, which were supposed to ensue starting from today will be held in abeyance – the disciplinary committees, the pronouncements in the House, the adoption of certain reports – until a committee which the Leader of Government Business has formed meets next week to begin to deliberate and to find a way forward. That committee consists of the Leader of Government Business, deputised by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, and representatives of the biggest opposition party. We want to give that process space, because all of us are concerned about the image that we give out there.


We must also say that we are all adults, and that there are responsibilities. Sometimes I don’t know. You see, every time before I get into bed, I take a look at myself and ask myself, “Did you do the best that you could today? You lost your temper - were you supposed to lose your temper? You were too lenient – could you have done it without being lenient?”


I think it is time that we public servants in South Africa come to reflect on these matters, because it is that which we live that will haunt our children into perpetuity. We must begin to build an image of Parliament that will proudly protect all of us as parties, and all of us as South Africans.


Members, I thought I should say those few words, and I thank you for a very robust day. This sitting has therefore done its job. Thank you very much.



The Council adjourned at 19:07.



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