Hansard: NA: Consideration of Report of Ad Hoc Committee on report by the president regarding security upgrades at Nkandla, Private Residence of the President
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 13 Nov 2014
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
13 NOVEMBER 2014
PAGE: 1
THURSDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
___________
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER
START OF DAY
LENGTH OF MOTIONS TO BE LIMITED TO 45 MINUTES
STANDING OVER OF BUDGET REVIEW & RECOMMENDATION REPORTS
(Rulings)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, the programming committee this morning discussed the extent of the programme today and the possible length of the sitting. It was clear from the current agenda that the House would adjourn very late – possibly midnight or beyond. In terms of Rule 2, I rule that notices of motion and motions without notice be limited to 45 minutes – that’s apart from the statements.
I also rule that the Chief Whip of the Majority Party move a motion at an appropriate time - after consultation with the parties - that most of the Budget Review and Recommendation reports stand over, which is an exercise we will leave to the Chief Whip to undertake quietly while we proceed with the Orders of the day in that regard.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Rule 2 is very specific and applicable only when there is an eventuality for which the Rules do not provide. The Rules provide for the programming committee and for the parliamentary programme to be agreed upon, which was done by the National Assembly Programming Committee today.
Madam Speaker, I submit to you that the Rules provide specifically for notices of motion and members’ statements today and I would, with respect, Madam Speaker, submit to you that you are not empowered to make a ruling in terms of Rule 2 in this particular aspect. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, the unforeseen eventuality is how long it will take us. [Interjections.]
Hon Steenhuisen, please take your seat! I am talking! [Interjections.] You can’t be on your feet when I am talking.
The unforeseen eventuality - and this was confirmed by our discussion this morning in the programming committee - is how long it will take us to debate 38 Budget Review & Recommendation Reports, BRRRs. It is unforeseen how long members are going to be able to sit here and process everything - the business of the House – that has to be done. [Interjections.] And, hon member, I’ve made a ruling and you are not going to move against it.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I address you, please?
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, if you are addressing me on the programme for today and my ruling, I am not entertaining you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I must submit to you that this was not an unforeseen circumstance. The hon Waters and I raised with you this morning that the programme was going to run very late into the evening. We asked that some of the matters stand over. There was widespread agreement by the ANC that that not be acceded to and the business be proceeded with. Therefore, for you to tell this House today that it was an unforeseen circumstance is not honest, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, we are going to limit the time of the motions without notice and the notices of motion. We are also going to allow the Chief Whip, at the right time, to move a motion in order to let some of the reports – reports that this morning you yourself were complaining about - stand over. And that is a ruling!
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Madam Speaker, may I address you, please?
The SPEAKER: What do you want to address me on, hon Litchfield-Tshabalala?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Speaker, I want to address you on the phrase ``unforeseen eventuality’’.
The SPEAKER: Hon Litchfield-Tshabalala, will you please take your seat? [Interjections.] I am asking you to take your seat. [Interjections.] I am not allowing you to speak.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: An unforeseen eventuality is more likely to be an act of God – vis major - or anything else that could not have been predicted. In this case, our staying long was foreseen. It was predicted and, accordingly, this Rule cannot apply, because it was foreseen. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, I proceed now with the business of the House as I have ruled. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Waters, please take your seat. I am not recognising you.
Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, the incompetence of the ANC Whippery has caused this debacle today.
The SPEAKER: I am not recognising you.
Mr M WATERS: The fact is that there is nothing unforeseen about the length of this programme. We talked about it. We did. And what is happening here is you are taking instructions from Luthuli House with your red phone by your seat, and we are not going to stand for it. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Waters, I am asking you again to take your seat.
Mr M WATERS: No, I will not.
The SPEAKER: If you will not, then you can only do one other thing and that is to leave the House. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, may I help you?
Mr M WATERS: Who is going to force me? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Please leave the House. [Interjections.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Ms N V NQWENISO: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections]
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I recognise the Chief Whip ... [Interjections.] Hon Chief Whip?
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: You are not on the floor, hon member. I have recognised the Chief Whip.
Mr M S MBATHA: Yes, but I was on the floor before him.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have recognised the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
Mr M S MBATHA: Yes, but I was up first.
The SPEAKER: I have recognised the Chief Whip.
Mr M S MBATHA: But you have no interest in recognising us ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Please proceed, hon Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, the Rules provide that any member of this House who is not happy with your ruling has recourse, according to the Rules, to the Rules Committee. We need to move forward, hon Speaker. We need to proceed. [Interjections.]
Ms D KOHLER: Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I appeal to you to take your seats.
Ms D KOHLER: No, Madam Speaker, I have asked for a point of order.
The SPEAKER: I appeal to you to take your seats.
Ms D KOHLER: I have asked for a point of order, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
Ms D KOHLER: The point of order is that, once again, this House is in utter chaos, because you, Madam, have decided to change everything that has already been predetermined before the sitting. It is absolutely unacceptable. No wonder this House is so furious. And, frankly, we have to continue, as was decided prior to this. You do not have this authority. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I have asked the Table staff to assist with the issue of ensuring that we limit the motions and notices of motions. [Interjections.]
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Madam Speaker, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: You can’t all talk.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Point of order: recognise one of us.
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker ...
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Point of order, Madam Speaker.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, you can’t all stand. There is someone standing at the back, someone here, another one there.
An HON MEMBER: You don’t recognise us.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Recognise one, then the rest will sit.
The SPEAKER: I actually don’t want to recognise anyone. [Interjections.] Hon Steenhuisen, I will recognise you,in recognition of your position as the Chief Whip of the biggest opposition party ... [Interjections.] ... in the hope that you are going to be helpful to the House before I proceed with the business of the House.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I am going to be eminently helpful to you today by advising you that Rule 2 cannot apply in this case. It cannot apply, because this is not an unforeseen eventuality. You were forewarned about it; therefore it is not an unforeseen eventuality.
Madam Speaker, the DA has members’ motions today in terms of the programme that was agreed to. And I am saying to you, Madam Speaker, that my members will read out every single one of them, regardless of whatever business is going on in this House today. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Every single one of them! You are abusing your position as Speaker. And I sincerely hope that the only reason you are doing this is that Gwede phoned you and instructed you to do it ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.] ... because I expect more from you as Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I now proceed ... [Interjections.]
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Madam Speaker, I am rising for the third time. May I address you?
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I now wish to proceed to notices of motion. [Interjections.]
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Madam Speaker, may I address you? I am rising for the third time.
The SPEAKER: I have not given you an opportunity to address me. May I have anyone who wants to give notice of a motion?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: May I be recognised, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: No, hon member. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Why not, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: I am now on notices of motion.[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No, you must provide clarity first.
The SPEAKER: Hon members are rising to differ with the Chair, which is a very unfortunate situation. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Because you are busy ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: We now come to notices of motion.
Afrikaans:
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Speaker, op ’n punt van orde: Hierdie Raadsaal is veronderstel om ’n bepaalde integriteit te hê. En ek wil ’n beroep op u doen, as Speaker, om te verseker dat daardie integriteit gehandhaaf word. U kan nie reëls maak wat teen die Reëls van die hierdie Huis is en daardeur die integriteit van hierdie Huis aantas nie. [Applous.] U is besig om die opposisie te probeer boelie om u interpretasie te gee aan reëls. Dis onaanvaarbaar, en ek doen ’n beroep op u om in belang van die integriteit van hierdie Raadsaal toe te laat dat die Reël korrek toegepas word en dat die mosies voortgaan soos altyd in hierdie Huis. Ek dank u. [Applous.]
English:
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please! [Interjections.] No, hon member.
Mr M S MBATHA: Madam Speaker ...
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, the member rises before I do. I’m not rising to differ with the Chair. Madam Speaker, may I address you, please?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Madam Speaker, I’m asking for the eighth time now.
The SPEAKER: I’m not allowing you.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: It’s the eighth time now.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, the hon member rises before me and he speaks and you do nothing. I have asked, respectfully, to address you. I am not rising to differ with you. I’m only asking to address you. Why must some members have the privilege to address you over others? That in itselfis unfair. But that it not why I’m rising. May I address you?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: I’m standing here. I’m not addressing you without your giving permission. There are people talking to you while I’m standing. Eight times I’ve asked you.
The SPEAKER: You actually shouldn’t even be standing, because I have not recognised you.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: ... because I am asking for recognition.
The SPEAKER: You ask for recognition by raising your hand.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: It was up.
The SPEAKER: Not before you spoke. You stood up and you spoke.
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, may I humbly address you, please?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, address me.
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much. Madam Speaker, the first issue is that if things continue as they are, we’ll find ourselves back at 21 August. What is happening in the gallery – the rent-a-crowd that is here – is contributing to the chaos in the House. I ask, Madam Speaker, that you rule first so that you control those members in the gallery, because we cannot have two Houses of Parliament. We are busy here and there is other business there.
The second issue is that I still submit to you that you are not within your powers to exercise Rule 2, and it is an abuse of power if you insist on addressing us on Rule 2. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, it’s not that we did not talk about the fact that the business will keep us until late this evening. What I am saying is unforeseen is how late it would be. [Interjections.] Hon members, are you listening? I am on the floor. I am talking and I am saying the reality is that you cannot keep hon members on the benches beyond a certain time. [Interjections.]
I, in my analysis of the situation, have decided and am ruling that we contain the length of the programme as much as it is in our hands. [Interjections.] We can go on until 22:00, but let us limit as far as we can. [Interjections.] Hon members, I now wish to take notices of motion. [Interjections.] I’m allowing you to give notices of motion. [Interjections.] Hon members, I wish you to take the opportunity to give notices of motion. [Interjections.]
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: No, Madam Speaker. You are going to recognise us. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I address you, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: We can’t be wasting time. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I want to discus an important matter. [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: You can’t continue with our hands up. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: We refuse. [Interjections.]
Ms N V NQWENISO: You can’t continue. There is a difference. [Interjections.]
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker, thank you very much. I am on the floor. Can I advise you? Hon Speaker, can I advise you? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Mr M S MBATHA: You are not going to get away with this one.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, just sit down.
Mr M S MBATHA: I don’t have a seat.
Ms N V NQWENISO: Are you going to recognise us? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Take your seat.
Ms N V NQWENISO: No, Madam Speaker. You are going to recognise us. If we take a seat you are not going to recognise us. What must we do? Must we leave? [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Please, recognise me. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: But the microphone is not working.
The SPEAKER: It’s working.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, with great respect, today is an important day for the people of this country. We cannot – when we had a programming meeting and discussed the eventualities that are going to take place – have the Speaker come in and say - as if that discussion did not take place - that it is unforeseeable. I want to plead with you, Speaker, to reverse your decision in this regard. The motions must be given the necessary time, as would be consistent with the Rules. We foresaw this situation.
Let me also say, Speaker, that none of us have any intention of leaving early.
The SPEAKER: Consistent with which Rule?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: We want to be here to serve the people of this country. We will remain until 1’o clock if that is what is needed. [Interjections.] We cannot leave this House. We refuse.
So can we have a frank discussion and, in fact, proceed with the programme, as was set out this morning? I plead with you, Madam Speaker, please – consistent with Rule 29. Please, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I am just amazed by your excitement. I don’t understand it ... [Interjections.] ... because all we are trying to do is to manage the situation, which is what we are supposed to do. [Interjections.]
Hon member, you will end up without a voice.
Mr G A GARDEE: Can I request that you request the Chief Whips of parties to quickly confer with you in private to help resolve this pandemonium ... and suspend the House for at least 10 minutes whilst they are conferring with you? I think that will help because the Chief Whips and the Whips of the ANC are more likely to agree with what will be discussed in private in your chamber. I thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, we will not suspend the business of the House ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, no, we will not suspend the business of the House. We have a very long agenda for today, and what we intend to do is to proceed and the Chief Whip will go to the other Whips and talk to them. That process will be different from the proceedings of the House. So right now we are having notices of motion, and I want to recognise those who have notices of motions.
Ms N P SONTI: Madam Speaker, Madam Speaker!
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Hon Speaker, may I address you? My hand was up and is tired now. It’s really tired now. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: You can’t have your leader here who is saying that her hand is up, and you are also screaming into the microphone there. Hon Litchfield-Tshabalala, because your hand is tired, let me recognise you before I proceed.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Hon Speaker, I’m not sure what was told to you about an unforeseeable event or eventuality. But can I put to you that this programme would have been even longer than this if the opposition had not argued in the Chief Whips’ Forum for the powers and privilege item to be moved to next week. According to the ruling party, it was supposed to be tabled today too.
So nobody can come here and complain about the programme being long. It was planned to be long. Had it not been for us it would even be longer than this! So this is not unforeseen. Unfortunately, if we continue like this, then may I put it to you that this is nothing but a one-party dictatorship. Then it is not a multiparty process. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, can we now have notices of motion. [Interjections.] That is what is on the Order Paper.
Ms P T MANTASHE: Hon Speaker... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: That is what is on the Order Paper. [Interjections.] There is a document called The Guide here. [Interjections] The first thing here is notices of motion and that was as agreed. [Interjections.] What now? Hon Maimane, please take your seat.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I asked you to make a ruling. Can you please rule on what I requested.
The SPEAKER: No, no, hon Maimane, please, take your seat.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Please, make a ruling. I think the decision was bad.
The SPEAKER: Please take your seat.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms P T MANTASHE: Hon Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates transformation of the structure of our economy to increase women’s participation and accessing economic opportunities.
I thank you. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, the issues you have raised are all acknowledged.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, reverse the decision.
The SPEAKER: And I will revert to the House on them under advisement. Right now I am taking notices of motion.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, no, no, today I refuse to sit down. We request that the debate continues as per the programme.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, I move on behalf of the NFP:
- That four children have been found dead inside a freezer in Ermelo, Mpumalanga yesterday;
- further notes that these boys, aged between four and seven, were last seen playing outside the house on Tuesday afternoon;
- the NFP extends its deepest condolences to the families, friends and relatives of the deceased; and
- we further call on parents to be vigilant, ensuring the safety of our children.
I so move. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, sit down. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I refuse to sit down. [Interjections.] No, no, no, I refuse, Madam Speaker because you are ignoring us. That is what you are doing. [Interjections.] No, you can’t. I simply cannot accept that you can ignore us. That can’t happen! [Interjections.]
Ms P T MANTASHE: Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that at its next sitting:
The House debates expanding the opportunities for sustainable livelihoods through support for co-operatives and microenterprises.
I so move. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Now I’m not sure on how we must proceed.
Ms D H MATHEBE: Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that at its next sitting
We are going to discuss community participation and crime prevention.
[Interjections.]
Mr M P MAPULANE: Madam Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC:
That at its next sitting the House debates the importance of ward committees and community participation in ensuring that municipalities function effectively.
Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I don’t know what it is that you are going to say that your leader has not said.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Due to the unforeseen circumstances today under Rule 2, under which you have made this ridiculous ruling today to suit the ruling alliance and to protect your party from any acts of mutiny against the parliamentary Rules, I would ask, Madam Speaker, with respect, that you surrender your Chair to the hon Frolick so that some order can be restored to the House and we can proceed with the business of the day. [Applause.]
You have lost control of the House for the second time, Madam Speaker. You are pushing us to a constitutional crisis and I would ask that, in the interest of this institution, you step down from the Chair so that we can proceed with the business of the day.
The SPEAKER: You wish! [Interjections.]
Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, Speaker. I think I need to address the House in terms of what hon Steenhuisen has raised. I think what he is doing is totally unacceptable; it’s totally outside of the Rules. [Interjections.] I am not sure which Rule he is referring to. I don’t think what he is trying to do with the suggestion about hon Frolick is ...
The Speaker is presiding and if Chief Whips are not able to ensure that the House operates effectively, then it is an indictment of the Chief Whips, and he is part of the group of Chief Whips. He has a duty as a Chief Whip to ensure that there is order in this House, which he has failed at. [Applause.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Speaker, may I assist you? In fact, you are the one who is causing disorder in this House.
Dr R N CAPA: Hon Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that on the next sitting day:
The House debates the state of the beneficiary list in municipalities and in the national database and the need to develop fair and transparent systems.
I so move.
An HON MEMBER: We are not listening to your motion. You are wasting your time. We are not listening to your motion.
Rev K R J MESHOE: May I address you, hon Speaker... [Interjections.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Speaker, you’re here to represent the people of South Africa. We are not here to play. We are here to work. We are here in the best interests of this country.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. I have not recognised you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: May I address you on a point of order. Speaker, the public watching what is happening in this House must be embarrassed by now. We are embarrassed ourselves, and we definitely cannot carry on this way. So I want to make a request that has been made already by some of the hon members and that is that you withdraw your ruling or reverse your ruling, and let’s stick to the programme as was agreed in the Chief Whips’ meeting, please. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Meshoe, I regret I will not agree to what you are saying. [Interjections.]
I recognise the IFP.
Mr M S MBATHA: You are recognising them again!
Ms H O MAXON: Can you recognise me after the IFP? Can I be recognised after the IFP?
The SPEAKER: No, please, take your seat, hon member.
Ms H O MAXON: Please recognize me after the IFP.
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, I would want to plead again, as I earlier indicated. [Interjections.] Calm down! Adults must conduct themselves as adults here.
Madam Speaker, I’m pleading with you that you reconsider this ruling, which you have made on Rule 2, because obviously it is now subject to great contestation and interpretation. For the sake of progress and for the integrity of your office, I request that you suspend the ruling that you have made and allow the programme to continue as agreed to by the programming committee, and then refer the matter back for future eventualities so that, when we come here, we are in agreement. That is the essence of democracy and that is the essence of consultation. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I stand up to second the IFP’s motion and agree that we continue as planned. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Are there any other notices of motion?
Mr M S MBATHA: Madam Speaker, there is a new message.
The SPEAKER: Can I just have the honour of recognising you, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, now that we have come to an agreement that we are going to continue with the programme as it is, can you please confirm that your ruling has now been set aside by yourself so that we are very clear on what is going to happen?
The SPEAKER: The ruling has been referred to the forum of the Whips led by the Chief Whip. [Interjections.]
May I check whether there are any notices of motion.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, can we please receive clarity because what the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has said, which I support, is at odds with the ruling that you made. He said that we should proceed with the programme as agreed at the programming this morning - that was the last programme that was agreed to... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: ... with the programme as agreed, yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: That was the last programme that we agreed on.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, why must we come here and teach you English? [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, you are now being derogatory and it’s unbecoming of the office that you hold. Are you withdrawing? Are we going to proceed with the last agreed programme which ...[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: We are proceeding with the programme as ...[Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ...agreed at programming?
The SPEAKER: We are proceeding with the programme as consulted and adopted this morning. [Applause.] The content of the ruling is referred for further consultation.
May I have an indication of those who want to express notices of motion.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House deliberates on the provision of agricultural officers to assist farmers, especially black farmers in rural areas.
I so move.
Ms S V KALYAN
Mr N M KHUBISA
Ms S V KALYAN: Speaker, I hereby will move on behalf of the DAat the next sitting of the House:
That this House debates the special privileges the Gupta family enjoy in South Africa.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Ms S V KALYAN
Ms N V NQWENISO: Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF to give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move:
That the House debates the continuing constitutional violation of the rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgender and intersexual South Africans.
I so move.
Mr J SELFE
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr J SELFE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that I shall move:
That the House debates the cost to taxpayers for defending President Zuma in the spy tapes saga.
Rev K R J MESHOE
Mr J SELFE
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, on behalf of the ACDP I give notice that I shall move:
That the House debates reasons for the increasing number of rapes by police officers who abuse vulnerable members of the public who depend on their protection, and come up with recommendations that will bring this unacceptable heinous crime by police officers to an end.
I so move.
Mr M L W FILTANE
Rev K R J MESHOE
Mr M L W FILTANE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the UDM:
That the House –
- notes that there are allegations of rotten feeding schemes in the province of Limpopo where about 275 pupils at Makeke Primary School were reportedly taken to hospital on Monday;
- further notes that suppliers reportedly...
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, no, we are on notices of motion.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Sorry.
Mrs A M DREYER
Mr M L W FILTANE
Mrs A M DREYER: Madam Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
The House debates the amount of public money spent on upgrading the private residence of President Jacob Zuma.
Mr N L S KWANKWA
Mrs A M DREYER
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the UDM, I shall move at its next sitting:
That the House debates the Correctional Services system’s inability to meet the increased demand for more space, and the resulting harm to individual inmates.
I so move.
Ms J F TERBLANCHE
Mr N L S KWANKWA
Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:
That the House debates the politicisation of the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, in the North West under President Zuma.
Ms H O MAXON
Ms J F TERBLANCHE
Ms H O MAXON: Madam Speaker, the EFF which is the government in waiting, rises to give notice at the next sitting of the House:
That the House debates the cost tender system, the role of the state and its impact on service delivery under Jacob Zuma.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
Ms H O MAXON
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that, at its next sitting, I shall move:
That this House debates whether, in light of the endless drama, scandal and general instability that continues to prevail at the SABC, it is still the right thing to do to pay our TV licenses.
I so move.
Mr S C MOTAU
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA at the next sitting of the House:
That the House debates the long-awaited amendments to the Ministerial Handbook that have yet to be finalised.
Ms P T MANTASHE
Mr S C MOTAU
Ms P T MANTASHE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC at the next sitting of the House:
That the House debates expanding the opportunities for sustainable livelihoods through support for co-operatives and microenterprises.
I so move.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Ms P T MANTASHE
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Speaker, the EFF rises to give notice that it will move at the next sitting of the House:
That the House debates the role and continuing relevance of the International Criminal Court and its track record of pursuing the prosecution of African personalities.
I so move.
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon Speaker, I move:
That the House debates the worrying trend of Minister Davies who has missed his parliamentary questions session, similar to President Zuma, which is problematic for job creation.
I so move.
Ms A T LOVEMORE
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Ms A T LOVEMORE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the crumbling state and lack of maintenance of municipal infrastructure, and debates solutions thereto.
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Ms A T LOVEMORE
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the cancellation of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme debts for poor graduates.
I so move.
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Ms S J NKOMO: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the delay by the Nigerian government to release the bodies of South Africans deceased in the Nigerian tragedy.
Mrs D ROBINSON
Ms S J NKOMO
Mrs D ROBINSON: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the need for obligatory training for all SAPS officers on the proper procedures and investigation of rape and abuse.
Mnr B D JOSEPH
Mrs D ROBINSON
Afrikaans:
Mnr B D JOSEPH: Speaker, by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal ek voorstel namens die EFF:
Dat die Huis die toestande van die vissersgemeenskappe langs die kusgebiede van die land debatteer.
Mr S J MASANGO
Mnr B D JOSEPH
Mr S J MASANGO: Speaker, I have two motions.
The SPEAKER: No, you are only allowed one.
Mr S J MASANGO: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the sewage spillage in the streets in the Govan Mbeki Municipality and the health hazards the children and community members are exposed to.
Mr M HLENGWA
Mr S J MASANGO
Mr M HLENGWA: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the high level of financial vulnerability of the vast majority of consumers in South Africa and the steps that can be implemented to assist them in better managing and easing their debt servicing situation.
Mr T C R WALTERS
Mr M HLENGWA
Mr T C R WALTERS: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates how the consistent failure of the government under President Jacob Zuma to develop a vibrant rural economy and a sustainable land reform process makes political victims of farmers and farm workers.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr T C R WALTERS
Ms N V NQWENISO: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the ability of postsecondary education and training institutions to absorb and equip all students who come from secondary schooling with education that is directly linked to community services and industries.
I so move.
Mr J R B LORIMER
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr J R B LORIMER: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the installation of a helipad at President Jacob Zuma’s Nkandla homestead at state expense.
[Applause.]
Ms N P SONTI
Mr J R B LORIMER
Ms N P SONTI: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the importance of having history as a compulsory subject in South African schools.
[Applause.]
The SPEAKER: The hon member is next, just so that she can stop calling. [Laughter.]
Mrs N W A MICHAEL
The SPEAKER
Ms N W A MICHAEL: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the more than R11 million spent on a military clinic and service area, clip-on and SAPS garages at President Zuma’s Nkandla residence.
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! [Applause.]
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mrs N W A MICHAEL
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the racial and gender discrimination suffered by black professionals, and that black professionals in all spheres of work – accountants, auditors, doctors, academics, lawyers, engineers, professionals in the information communications technology sector and many other professions – are still subjected to racial discrimination and unequal treatment.
I so move.
Mr C D MATSEPE
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mr C D MATSEPE: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the negative impact of the SA Democratic Teachers’ Union, Sadtu, site tours on teaching and learning outcomes in our schools.
[Applause.]
Ms H O MAXON: Madam Speaker, the EFF rises ...
The SPEAKER: No, hon member. I did not recognise you. I am recognising someone behind you.
Ms H O MAXON: All right, next time. Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Quiet, hon member!
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN
The SPEAKER
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates Eskom’s temptation to resort to sledgehammer-like projects to make up for its lack of planning and bad management.
Ms D KOHLER
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN
Ms D KOHLER: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the ANC’s unwillingness to act against its party members who attack the integrity of the Public Protector.
[Applause.]
Mr K P SITHOLE
Ms D KOHLER
Mr K P SITHOLE: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the lack of sanitation in Ward 6 in Newcastle.
Mr S C MNCWABE
Mr K P SITHOLE
Mr S C MNCWABE: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the NFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the state-owned agencies, how much the state pays to remunerate them, and whether the departments are not abdicating their responsibilities.
Mr N P KHOZA
Mr S C MNCWABE
Mr N P KHOZA: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the provision of free quality education up to undergraduate level for all South African students as a means of ensuring a transformed and competitive society.
I so move.
Ms D VAN DER WALT
Mr N P KHOZA
Dr A LOTRIET: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the use of amphitheatres for security purposes.
[Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
Ms D VAN DER WALT
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the ANC that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the abuse of procedures of this House in order to filibuster and undermine the multiparty democratic process of Parliament.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr M WATERS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
Mr M WATERS: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates why President Zuma’s diary is seemingly too full to allow him to come to Parliament to fulfil his constitutional duties as President of this country to answer questions in this House.
I so move.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr M WATERS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the importance of President Zuma attending question sessions as per the Rules of Parliament, disregarding all extraneous circumstances.
I so move.
Mr S N SWART
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr S N SWART: I hereby give notice on behalf of the ACDP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the measures to protect the identity of teachers who want to testify before a special task team into the sex-for-jobs scandal, particularly for those witnesses with career-threatening evidence who fear for their lives after hearing reports of whistleblowers being killed in KwaZulu-Natal.
MS SP KOPANE
Mr S N SWART
Ms S P KOPANE: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the spending of R490 000 on the construction of a tuck shop at Nkandla.
Prof N M KHUBISA
Ms S P KOPANE
Prof N M KHUBISA: I hereby give notice on behalf of the NFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the proliferation of schools without the necessary infrastructure like classrooms, libraries, toilets and laboratories.
I so move.
Mnu M S MBATHA
Prof N M KHUBISA
IsiZulu:
Mnu M S MBATHA: Sekela Sihlalo, nginika isaziso sokuthi ngosuku olulandelayo lokuhlala kweNdlu, ngizophakamisa:
Ukuthi iNdlu ikhulume ngokuthi kungenzeka yini ukuthi umtholampilo owakhiwe kwaMongameli ushintshe ube ngumtholampilo womphakathi ukuze izakhamuzi zikwazi ukuzuza.
Mr A M FIGLAN
Mnu M S MBATHA
Mr A M FIGLAN: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the worrying rise in politically motivated acts of violence in the country, particularly in light of the shooting on 05 November 2014 of Andile Lili, the leader of the Ses’khona civic group.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J JEFFERY)
Mr A M FIGLAN
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): I hereby give notice on behalf of the ANC that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House-
- notes with concern the assaults on democracy taking place at the moment where a group of minority parties which represent a small fraction of the electorate are seeking to undermine processes in the House and prevent the business of the House from being discussed;
- further notes with concern the inability of the smaller opposition parties to listen when people are saying things that they disagree with; and ...
[Applause.] [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, what point of order are you rising on?
Mr G A GARDEE: The hon member has raised his notice of motion but went further to raise something bordering on a motion without notice. Can that other part be removed?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s your opinion and it is not correct. You may proceed, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Hon Speaker, that was no means trying to be a motion without notice. I know that the hon member will not support it but it just shows the quality of what they are doing. [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J JEFFERY)
Mr I M OLLIS: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the fact that the ANC forces residents of the Madala men’s hostel in Alexandra to live in a building which the ANC City Council city engineers have condemned and declared as unfit for human habitation.
I so move.
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA
Mr I OLLIS
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates reasons why special advisers and friends of the President are granted medical parole whilst countless ordinary citizens are not.
[Applause.]
Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA
Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: I move without notice that:
The House debates how we can bring moral regeneration to this House. We have morally degenerated to the point where we are a laughingstock of those who elected us. I put it to this House that we, as Members of Parliament, should debate how we can morally regenerate ourselves.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a notice of motion, hon member.
Ms E R WILSON
Ms L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE
Ms E R WILSON: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the reallocation of resources from other service delivery initiatives to fund the upgrading of President Zuma’s Nkandla homestead.
Mr B D JOSEPH
Ms E R WILSON
Mr B D JOSEPH: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the generally highly indebted black population to be removed from the credit bureau.
Mr G MACKAY
Mr B D JOSEPH
Mr G MACKAY: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the inability of the Speaker to learn the names of Members of Parliament.
Ms J STEENKAMP
Mr G MACKAY
Ms T BAKER: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the cost of maintaining President Jacob Zuma’s palatial homestead in Nkandla while many South Africans face homelessness and evictions at the hands of the ANC government.
I so move.
Mr A G WHITFIELD
Ms J STEENKAMP
Mr G R KRUMBOCK: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the blatant abuse of municipal employees to canvass votes for the ANC in the Mpofana by-elections scheduled for 26 November as well as the alleged relaunch of a housing project for the same purpose.
Mr D C ROSS
Mr A G WHITFIELD
Mr D C ROSS: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House-
- debates the state of failing municipalities in the Free State; and
- further notes that those municipalities are in debt to an amount of R3,6 billion.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr D C ROSS
Ms N V NQWENISO: I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the state of our public hospitals and the importance of public servants and public representatives like us sitting here taking the Thomas Sankara Oath so as to be compelled by law to use public services in order to ensure that public hospitals are of a high quality.
Ms S J NKOMO
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Ms S J NKOMO: I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the irregular expenditure of R19 million by the Zululand District Municipality in the 2012-13 financial year and this municipality’s failure to appear before the KwaZulu-Natal Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Ms S J NKOMO
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the deceptive outward appearance of so-called multiparty democracy of South Africa.
Ms M T KUBAYI
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Ms M T KUBAYI: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates ways and means of capacitating leaders who do not understand their roles and responsibility, and the fact that their constituency has lost confidence in them, especially in the opposition party.
Mr D J MAYNIER
Ms M T KUBAYI
Mr D J MAYNIER: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the number of flights on privately owned ultra-luxury gulfstream executive jets undertaken by Cabinet’s top gun, the hon Lindiwe Sisulu.
[Interjections.]
Ms N P SONTI
Mr D J MAYNIER
NOTICES OF MOTIONS CONTD
Ms N P SONTI: I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the promotion of small-holder agriculture as the bedrock of the country’s present and future food security as well as the role of the state in ensuring the viability of this section of agriculture.
I so move. [Interjections.]
Afrikaans:
Voetsek ...
IsiZulu:
... nina, zinja. Nisi... [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to say what the hon member has just said in the House? She has just said ``Voetsek nina’’ in the House, and ``zinja’’. She must withdraw that immediately.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, did you say that? Stand up, hon member.
An HON MEMBER: Say no. Say no, just no.
Ms N P SONTI: Even yesterday, ...
IsiXhosa:
... xa usithi uyafunda benza ingxolo. Mabangasigezeli.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I will ask the Table to look at the Hansard for me because if ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who is speaking now?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I am.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what are you rising on?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I am raising the same concern raised by the other member. The member ... [Interjections.] ... can repeat it again because we all heard what she said. She said ``voetsek’’ so there is no need for Hansard. Hon Deputy Speaker, she also did not use a microphone. She said ``voetsek’’ and walked away. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, just ... Yes, that is okay; check it.
Mr R W T CHANCE
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the issuing of certificates for training by the National School of Government, which is funded by taxpayers, on programmes that are not recognised by the National Skills Framework nor are they quality assured by the relevant quality assurance bodies.
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Mr R W T CHANCE
Mr D W MACPHERSON: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House-
- debates the firepool at Nkandla which was actually found to be a swimming pool;
- further debates costs associated with it and whether this money could have been better used to provide water to the impoverished local community of Nkandla.
Ms A STEYN
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Ms A STEYN: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the speed at which chickens are allowed to run through the chicken run at Nkandla and the biosecurity of these chickens.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: There seems to be a number of motions which are dealing with an issue which is on the Order Paper for discussion later - the report ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I am listening to a point of order ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: It is another point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Not on a point of order ...
Mr G A GARDEE: Okay. I will be next.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Not on a point of order. Just take your seat.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Deputy Speaker, a number of the motions being proposed relate to an item that is coming up for discussion on the agenda.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Anticipation.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): That is why they are raising them all - to filibuster that. Is it correct that motions get proposed for discussion when the matters are already on the Order Paper for discussion?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I suggest that you be careful of violating anticipation, especially on things that are already on the Order Paper.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH
The Deputy Speaker
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates if the landscaping and greenery at Nkandla is in fact indigenous to Nkandla.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: You have made a ruling and he is now discussing that. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order is that, in terms of the Rules of the National Assembly, a notice of motion shall not be subject to any discussion or debate whatsoever. The hon member is out of order by debating motions moved by members. Can he please be called to order?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, if that is correct, then you as well are out of order. You are commenting on the substance of what he is saying yourself, and I think that it is incorrect. Members, let us not conveniently play on the Rules to favour ourselves. You are effectively being disruptive.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, you have ruled that we should not speculate or discuss things that are on the agenda in terms of the Nkandla report as put by the hon Deputy Minister. The problem is that all the issues that members are raising with regards to Nkandla are not in the report, and that is the problem. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we have given you ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, can I raise a point of order?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Deputy Speaker, he raised his point of order and you responded to it. Can I just firstly say ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is on the floor; let him finish.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Thank you, Speaker.
Mr G A GARDEE: No, but he is the one who is out of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Thank you. Can I refer the hon member to Rule 95 which is the same question Rule - that no matter shall be proposed for discussion. So, it is just about that one can comment on motions that are raised as you are doing now. The issue is that there is going to be a debate on the Nkandla report where, if they feel there are issues that are not in that report because they never attended, then they can raise them in the debate. They are anticipating and wasting everybody’s time.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSTION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSTION: Deputy Speaker, I have looked at the Rules on anticipation. Perhaps the hon Deputy Minister could point out exactly where in the report what the hon Brauteseth says in that motion is dealt with, because I have looked through it and I cannot find anything about pot plants in the report. Perhaps he can give us the page number?
Mr E J MARAIS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSTION
Mr E J MARAIS: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the capital rollout plan of Transnet in as well as other infrastructure plans of all three spheres of government to complement the industrial development zone, IDZ, within the Saldana Bay municipal area.
PROF NM KHUBISA
Mr E J MARAIS
Prof N M KHUBISA: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the abuse of government fiscus, municipal vehicles, violation of procurement and supply chain management laws by the Ulundi Municipality.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Prof N M KHUBISA
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker, I raise on behalf of the EFF ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Tshabalala, just a moment, let her finish.
Ms D VAN DER WALT
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Ms D VAN DER WALT: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the Gauteng Advisory Panel on the socioeconomic impact of e-tolls and the mass rejection of the system by Gauteng residents. Furthermore, I ask that the Minister of Transport make a statement in the House, in terms of Rule 106(1), stating her position on the work of the Gauteng advisory panel and her response once the advisory panel has completed its work.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Ms D VAN DER WALT
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I just want to check with you whether the member can repeat herself in raising a motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will rule on that later. We will consult on that. Go ahead, hon member.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, for your protection.
I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the food security state of South Africa’s households.
Mr M S A MASANGO
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Mr M S A MASANGO: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates when President Zuma will pay back the money he owes for the upgrades at his Nkandla homestead.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we have made a ruling on that matter and I suggest you be careful of that.
Mr K S MUBU
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr K S MUBU: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the third phase of the Expanded Public Works Programme and to find ways in which this programme can benefit all South Africans and not only members of the ANC.
Mr N P KHOZA
Mr K S MUBU
Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the failure of the ANC government and its councillors to deal with the corruption and the ill treatment of community members that is taking place in the mines owned by some of the hon members of this House, like hon Cyril Ramaphosa.
I so move.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are out of order.
Mr S MOKGALAPA
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move that:
The House debates reasons why foreign nations such as the UK refused to meet with President Jacob Zuma, and its impact on foreign direct investment in South Africa.
MR A LEES
Mr S MOKGALAPA
Mr R A LEES: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the importance of President Zuma declaring all his assets ...
IsiZulu:
njengendlu yezinkukhu noma isibaya sezinkomo ...
English:
... and business interests to Parliament.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed, I just want to point out that the purpose of notices of motion is to propose subjects for discussion, debates or decisions for the House to take. The report on the President’s residence is on the agenda today, on the Order Paper, and it can reasonably be expected that members will be allowed to raise matters pertaining to that matter in that debate.
Rule 671 specifically prohibits members from raising a matter that anticipates the discussion of a matter appearing on the Order Paper. Members are therefore asked to refrain from proposing subjects for discussion that can reasonably be raised in the debate before the House. We are restating that.
DA MEMBER
MR A LEES
Mr D J STUBBE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on:
That the House debates the use of the proportion of tax received through the selling of plastic carrier bags.
I so move.
MR N BHANGA
DJ STUBBE
IsiXhosa:
Mnu B M BHANGA: Sihlalo, ndiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso ndimele i-DA ukuba le Ndlu kwintlanganiso ezayo ixoxe ngokungcola, nobumdaka obenziwa yinkunkuma engacholwayo Kwazakhele, kumasipala waseBhayi.
English:
I so move.
MR T Z HADEBE
MR N BHANGA
IsiXhosa:
Mr T Z HADEBE: Ngibonge kuSomlomo ohloniphekile ...
English:
Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the forecast for sea-level rise over the decades, the increased risk from the natural disasters this brings to our coastal communities and cities as well as what role government and local municipalities can play to help cities and towns prepare for rising seas.
Thank you.
DA MEMBER
MR T Z HADEBE
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the possibility of rescinding the medical parole given to Schabir Shaik, a convicted fraudster and a man found to have been in a generally corrupt relationship with President Zuma.
Thank you. [Applause.]
MR L GREYLING
Adv H C SCHMIDT
Mr L W GREYLING: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates clandestine visits by President Jacob Zuma to rogue nations, and the possible signing of a secret trillion-rand nuclear contract.
I so move. Thank you.
Ms H O MAXON
MR L GREYLING
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the different access to quality education for the rich and the poor under the leadership of the SA Communist Party boss who has since graduated from being a Communist Party member to being a member of the SA Capitalist Party.
[Laughter.]
Ms T STANDER: Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member; it’s the member behind you. [Interjections.] Order!
Ms T STANDER
Ms H O MAXON
Ms T STANDER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the failure of the ANC government to fulfil all its obligations in terms of individual subsidies promised to many of the poorest of the poor who already suffered enough under apartheid.
I so move.
DA MEMBER
Ms T STANDER
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the Gauteng Advisory Panel on the socioeconomic impact of e-tolls and the mass rejection of the system by Gauteng residents.
I so move.
Mr A R MCLOUGHLIN
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
Mr A R MCLOUGHLIN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the lack of competition in the domestic aviation sector, especially amongst the so-called low cost airlines because, despite the entrance of a new airline, airfares remain unaffordable for most South Africans.
I so move.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member at the back there. No, hon member, you mustn’t keep standing when a member is speaking at the podium. You are out of order! In future you must not do that! Go ahead and talk.
MR M BAGRAIM
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr M BAGRAIM: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the allegations of several bribes of R500 000 paid to President Jacob Zuma by the French armament company Thales and its South African subsidiary Thint for his role in brokering the arms deal.
Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order. In the first place, unless you do so by a substantive motion, you can’t make allegations of that nature. So, we suggest you withdraw that. [Interjections.] Hon member, please withdraw.
Mr M BAGRAIM: Hon Deputy Speaker, I said allegations. I didn’t make the allegations myself. They are allegations.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, in doing so, you are imputing on the head of the state that kind of allegations. So, withdraw! Hon member, I have ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I do wish to point out that the President is not a member of this House.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am aware of that! [Interjections.] Hon member.
Mr M BAGRAIM: Sorry, Deputy Speaker. What do you want me to do?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Withdraw that!
Mr M BAIGRAM: To withdraw the allegations? I didn’t make them, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, by repeating them, you are making them! [Interjections.]
Mr M BAGRAIM: No, this is an alleged allegation. I am not making it. I am merely stating that that was the allegation. The allegation is that bribes were paid to our President. And I am worried about that. He is our President.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Speaker, point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Speaker, both the hon member and the hon Chief Whip don’t seem to be aware of Rule 66. It’s not about members. It’s about persons whose removal from office is dependent on a decision of this House.
And that’s the Rule, and it is that ``no member shall reflect on the competence of such a person’’. And, in making that allegation, that is what the member is doing, and that is why it must be moved by a substantive motion. And I don’t know why he is ... I suggest that he reads Rule 66, as should the hon Chief Whip of the desperate alliance.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He has ... Hon Deputy... Hon members ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, point of order, Deputy Speaker. Hon Jeffrey calls us a ``Desperate Alliance’’. We are the Democratic Alliance. And if he is going to start with names like that, we are going to name him another naughty comrade. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I requested you to withdraw!
Mr M BAGRAIM: Hon Deputy Speaker, I withdraw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.
Mrs M R SHINN
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mrs M R SHINN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates cadre deployment in the South African broadcasting industry.
MR Z N MBHELE
Mrs M R SHINN
Mr Z N MBHELE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the conflict of interest in the President appointing the head of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, while the President himself is the subject of 783 criminal charges by the same prosecuting authority.
I so move.
Mr T W MHLONGO
Mr Z N MBHELE
Mnu T W MHLONGO: Somlomo, ngisukuma egameni le-DA ukuphakamisa ukuthi ekuhlaleni okulandelayo:
Le Ndlu idingide ngokuhluleka kwe-ANC ukunikeza abantu amatayitele ukuze bazeke njengabanikazi bezindlu nokuyikho okuzosiza ukuqhakambisa kokubaluleka kokuba ngabanikazi bezindlu.
Tshivenḓa: [15:35:23]
Vho T E MULAUDZI: Muthusa Mulangadzulo, ndi khou ṋea nḓivhadzo ya uri kha dzulo ḽi tevhelaho ḽa Nnḓu ndi ḓo dzinginyisa:
Uri Nnḓu i ambe nga ha u sa ṱanganedziwa ha vhana kana u thudzeliwa kule ha vhana vha zwisiwana nga maanḓa vha vharema kha magudedzi na kha dziyunivesithi dza nṱha nga u sa vha na masheleni.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I have 50 motions. Can I read them all so that I do not have to come back? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no!
Mr G A GARDEE: All right, I will come back 50 times. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You won’t. I can let you know in advance that you won’t. [Laughter.]
Mr G A GARDEE: That is the rule of anticipation.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Absolutely! That one I can anticipate. I know exactly what it is! [Laughter.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Can I at least read two?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, sir.
Mr G A GARDEE: All right, I will read one for now. [Laughter.]
Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the profit-shifting concept which the Deputy President, Cyril Ramaphosa, says is not wrong for companies to use to avoid tax.
Ms V VAN DYK
Mr G A GARDEE
Ms V VAN DYK: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the use of marquee areas for security purposes.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Waters, no, you cannot address the House. I am pointing out that the Speaker earlier on ruled that you should leave the House. You are not supposed to be in the House, so there is no way that you will be able to address the House. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: He’s not leaving! He’s not leaving! He’s staying right there!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am drawing to your attention that you cannot address the House, so you will not be able to get that opportunity.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, the instruction of the Speaker was that the hon Waters sit down. After a protracted struggle, he did sit down. [Interjections.] I would submit that he obeyed the instruction of the Speaker and therefore should be entitled to participate in the proceedings of the House. He has already read one motion out, so ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, do not make the mistake of making the statements you are making. You heard what the Speaker said. It was wrong in the first place for him to do that. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, sorry, just before the member proceeds ... I am at a loss for words because you already allowed the hon Waters to read out a statement prior to this, so you are undermining your own recognition of him previously.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I am telling you that it was a mistake in the first place. It does not mean two wrongs make a right.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But on what Rule has the hon Waters been dismissed from the House?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: When you defy the authority of the Chair, and you are advised not to do so and you do so, then it is correct for the Deputy Speaker – for the Speaker – to instruct him to leave the House, and he didn’t.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, she asked for him to sit down, and he did sit down. [Interjections.] She didn’t order him out of the House.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will not debate that anymore.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, can we perhaps assist the Chief Whip of the DA? [Interjections.] In fact, the hon Waters defied both Rules 49 and 51. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! Point of order! Point of order! Deputy Speaker, the hon Waters was not thrown out of the House. Now, if that turncoat across the House there is going to make allegations like that, she is out of order. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: What party are you from?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, when you were saying that he is not going anywhere, who the hell were you talking to? [Interjections.]
Ms M T KUBAYI: Order! Order, Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I withdraw that! I withdraw that. I withdraw unconditionally. It was a slip of the tongue. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Hon members!
Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. I want to bring to your attention the comments made by the Chief Whip of the DA against hon Kilian. He continues to scream at her. He continues to say a lot of things as he is saying now. It is unparliamentary but, in addition, for a leader of a party to conduct himself in that manner ... he has deteriorated even more than ordinary members. [Interjections.] No wonder there is a problem in the DA, because he cannot lead! [Interjections.]
Ms H S BOSHOFF
Ms M T KUBAYI
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the continuing diplomatic tensions between Malawi and South Africa following President Zuma’s outbursts about the quality of national roads in that country.
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mrs D ROBINSON
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the commercialisation of correctional services through the privatisation of prisons, and the effect this has on crime reduction.
I so move.
Mr Y CASSIM
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mr Y CASSIM: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates why Minister Blade Nzimande continues to refuse to give a straight answer on when South Africans can ever expect fee-free higher education from an ANC government in our lifetime, something we are still waiting for.
I so move.
Mr D L TWALA
Mr Y CASSIM
Mr D L TWALA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the revival of moral regeneration structures created with a view to re-engineering society towards a healthy, educated, and crime-free society.
Mr N SINGH
Mr D L TWALA
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates how we can manage stress and reduce tension in this House.
[Laughter.]
Mr D AMERICA
Mr N SINGH
Mr D AMERICA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the R10 million the state spent over several years on President Jacob Zuma’s legal fees, and whether any more government funds should be made available for President Zuma’s current and future legal expenses.
I so move.
Dr M J FIGG
Mr D AMERICA
Dr M J FIGG: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the total crisis engulfing the Road Accident Fund.
Mr C MACKENZIE
Dr M J FIGG
Mr C MACKENZIE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the abysmal state of affairs surrounding the shocking conditions of the people who live in the informal settlement of Kya Sands where, notwithstanding high-profile visits by successive ANC mayors and, more recently, the hon Gigaba, after the fire that destroyed 750 shacks, nothing has changed to make the least bit of difference for these the most vulnerable in our society.
Thank you.
Mr R W T CHANCE
Mr C MACKENZIE
Mr L J BASSON: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the high degree of water loss in South African municipalities and the ways in which we can curb these losses.
Ms J STEENKAMP
Mr R W T CHANCE
Ms J STEENKAMP: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the state of our legal and illegal landfill sites and the monitoring thereof by the authorities.
Mr S ESAU
Ms J STEENKAMP
Mr S ESAU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates military veterans’ benefits and its impeding factors.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed ... Hon Sonti? Yes, rise, and go closer to the microphone. We have now checked the Hansard, and you did say what the hon member said you said. We ask you to withdraw that.
Ms N P SONTI: Tata.ndicela uxolo kodwa ke ngabo aba bandihluphayo kodwa ke ndicela uxolo.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hayi kaloku musa ukuyimosha.
Ms N P SONTI: Ndicela uxolo. Ndicela uxolo.
Mr T GODI
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE (RULING)
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, in the name of God Almighty, is it really parliamentary for us to be subjected to an endless stream of trivial motions? [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Deputy Speaker! Order! [Interjections.]
Ms N P SONTI: It is our democracy! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like to make a ruling on that. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, may I suggest to you that in future ... [Interjections.] ...we do not normally allow people to do this. It is incorrect for us to allow you, when someone else is raising a point of order, to also raise a point of order, as he has not even concluded yet.
Now, I wish to remind you that this is not the first time we remind you of it. It shouldn’t be difficult to remember it, so don’t do that again. [Applause.] Complete your ... Yes! [Interjections.]
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, I was saying: Can you give us guidance, please? So far, we have not entered into the serious business of why we are here today ... [Interjections.] ... and it appears that there is lot of subterfuge, basically to prevent us from dealing with the matters that are on the agenda. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member! Hon member at the back there! Yes! The hon member behind you, yes!
Mrs G BREYTENBACH
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the reinstatement of 783 charges of corruption and fraud against President Jacob Zuma ...
[Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker! On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes!
Mr G A GARDEE: We are being subjected to very brutal torture and verbal abuse by hon Lindiwe Maz ... [Interjections.] ... Lindiwe Zulu. [Interjections.] Can you please call her to order to stop howling at us here? She will get the very same insult that has been howled that other side if she continues like this.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right! Hon members, order, order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon Minister, hon Minister! Please, order, order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Yes, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, the hon Breytenbach had not completed her motion before she was interrupted by the point of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, she sat down. She sat down! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION : But she has to sit down when you are making a ruling; that is the Rule, Deputy Speaker! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, she had finished! [Interjections.] No, hon member, I assumed she finished. [Interjections.] Yes, okay. Go ahead, hon member. Hon member, finish your motion if you did not!
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting that:
This House debates ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! [Interjections.] No. No, hon members, that is out of order!
Adv G BREYTENBACH: I can stand here all day!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:
This House debates the reinstatement of 783 charges of corruption and fraud against President Jacob Zuma.
[Applause.]
Mr J VOS
Mrs G BREYTENBACH
Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the roles of the ANC Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the MEC for Co-operative Governance, Human Settlements and Traditional Affairs in Limpopo and the SAPS in Limpopo in destabilising the Mokgalakwena Local Municipality and its council.
I so move.
[Applause.]
Mr J VOS
Mr K J MILEHAM
Mr J VOS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates how the government, and particularly the Tourism department, can help to alleviate the problem of poverty in South Africa given the current discourse between tourism and poverty alleviation, because the mere fact that tourism takes place does not imply that the money trickles down to the poor.
Ms D KOHLER
Mr J VOS
Ms K DE KOCK: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the Department of Social Development’s inability to obtain current accurate information regarding the prevalence of substance abuse in South Africa and the impact it has on the fight against substance abuse.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am going through the last rounds. Yes, hon member at the back there.
Ms H O MAXON: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The EFF ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member! There is a member behind you whom I had asked to stand.
Ms H O MAXON: Oh, okay! Please Deputy Speaker, recognise me as well. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, hon member. You are out of order!
Mr K Z MORAPELA
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Sesotho:
Mong K Z MORAPELA: Ke a leboha Motlatsa Modulasetulo. Ke ne ke hlahisa hore nakong e tlang:
Ntlo e qoqe taba ya batho bao e leng hore ba ipelaetsa kgahlano le phano e fokolang ya ditshebeletso, moo e leng hore mmuso o etelletsweng pele ke ANC o hloleha ho fana ka ditshebeletso tsa mantlha.
Ms D KOHLER
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Ms D KOHLER: On a point of order, Chair, if I may: [Interjections.] I would like to bring to your attention the fact that Minister Lindiwe Zulu has just had to be separated by the police from a member of the EFF when she came around the back and attacked her just outside the door. [Interjections.] I would like you to address this matter, please! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I cannot address something I have not seen, hon member! [Interjections.]
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Speaker! [Interjections.] Speaker! That is incorrect, Speaker. [interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I will not be able to address that matter. It has not come to our attention formally and properly. Yes, hon member?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker, the EFF rises to give notice that at its next sitting:
The House discusses the immense emotional and mental abuse suffered by members of the opposition party at the hands of various chairpersons of the National Assembly.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Ms H O MAXON
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
IsiZulu:
Nksz H O MAXON: Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo ...
English:
I rise on behalf of the EFF give notice that at its next sitting:
This House debates the cost of Jacob Zuma’s wives to the state.
[Interjections.]
Mr H C C KRÜGER
Ms H O MAXON
Afrikaans:
Mnr H C C KRÜGER: Agb Huisvoorsitter, ek is van voorneme om namens die DA ’n mosie in die volgende vergadering ter tafel te lê om ’n debat te voer oor die water tekort in Thembisile Hani Munisipalitiet. Dankie.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have given ... I am looking for members whom I have not seen talk and I am going to do that. At the back there, hon member!
Ms Z JONGBLOED
Mr H C C KRÜGER
Ms Z JONGBLOED: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the use of cattle kraals for security purposes.
[Interjections.]
Dr M J CARDO
Ms Z JONGBLOED
Dr M J CARDO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the inability of President Jacob Zuma to lead his Cabinet in one clear policy direction, thereby creating policy uncertainty, limiting economic growth and discouraging foreign investment.
[Interjections.]
Ms N I TARABELLA MARCHESI
Dr M J CARDO
Ms N I TARABELLA MARCHESI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that in its next sitting:
This House debates the archaic apartheid legislation that is the National Key Points Act.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member? [Interjections.] No, no, hon member. It is the member over there!
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM:
Ms N I TARABELLA MARCHESI
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the NFP that at its next sitting:
This House debates the Western Cape Provincial Department of Human Settlements’ failure to build adequate housing, with a backlog of approximately 500 000 in the City of Cape Town, with only 66 houses built in the N2 Gateway project. Hundred of thousands of people are living in appalling conditions in the Western Cape, and I wish that this matter be debated in the next sitting.
[Applause.]
Ms T GQADA
SHAIK EMAM
Ms L V JAMES: Deputy Speaker, I hereby rise on behalf of the DA to give notice that at its next sitting:
The House debates the short- and long-term plan to address the long queues in clinics that our people are subjected to, which start as early as 4am.
I so move.
MALATSI
Ms L V JAMES
Mr M S SESHOKA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
The House debates the use of swimming pools for security reasons when millions of young South Africans need them for training.
Mr C H H HUNSINGER
Mr M S MALATSI
Mr A G WHITFIELD: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the spectacular failure of the ANC-led Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality to implement its integrated public transport system and its impact on the local economy.
I so move.
[Applause.]
Mr C HUNSINGER
Mr A G WHITFIELD
Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Deputy Speaker, I give notice on behalf of the DA that at the next sitting:
This House debates how the Passenger Rail Association of South Africa, Prasa, did not comply with the processes and procedures in the ordering of the new locomotive rolling stock, how this took place and the impact this had on the project and the budget in this regard.
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr C H H HUNSINGER
LAST CALL FOR NOTICES OF MOTION
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have exhausted the number of people who have not ... [Interjections.] No, hon members, I want to bring to your attention that we have now covered the majority of members here, some of them more than twice and ... [Interjections.] No, hon members, reasonably speaking there are Orders of Business before the House which we will proceed with. I am going to give a few more members a chance to give notices and we will then assume that we have completed. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: May I understand from you what Rule you are utilising to curtail the notices of motions which, in terms of the Rules, are unlimited for members? [Interjections.] Can I have the Rule, just for future reference? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, we are saying this on the grounds that we ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, I am talking. Wait, wait! You see, this is the problem ...
IsiZulu:
Ungangixubhi ngisadla. Ngiyakucela ungangixubhi, ngisadla!
English:
I wish to indicate, hon members, that we have to be reasonable, and that we must aim at dealing with the issues before the House. Even if you want us to deal with all of those issues that you are raising, we do draw your attention to the fact that it is crucial that we reach a stage where we say we have heard these notices that you were giving, and that we will proceed to the next order of business. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I hear your ruling and I would still like to know what Rule it is. I certainly appreciate the comments that you have made about being reasonable because that is certainly what we would expect from the Programming Whip and the programming team in the ANC. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: The Chief Whip is advising the Table there on the Rules. [Interjections.]
No, Chief Whip! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, this is the last time I warn you. This is the last time, okay!
Mr D BERGMAN
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr D BERGMAN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
The House debates the cost and purpose of flighting our satellites for spying on our citizens.
[Interjections.]
Mr B D JOSEPH
Mr D BERGMAN
Afrikaans:
Mr B D JOSEPH: Die EVV stel voor dat die Huis by sy volgende sitting die volgende debateer: die politieke inmenging by die SAUK deur die regerende party.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr B D JOSEPH
Ms N V NQWENISO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice of motion on behalf of the EFF that in its next sitting:
The House-
- debates the corruption that the ANC councillors commit by selling basic service needs like electricity, plots and food parcels to poor people of South Africa as is the case in Nkanini at Khayelitsha where poor people are being abused by councillors; and
- comes up with amicable solutions to solve these wrongdoings.
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, I rise to give notice that in its next sitting:
This House debates whether this House is in fact not being misled that the ANC, APC and NFP are actually one and the same.
[Interjections.]
Mr R A LEES
Mr D W MACPHERSON
IsiZulu:
Mnu R A LEES: Ngiyaxolisa ukuthi siyakuhlupha ngenkathi usadla kodwa sizoqeda khona manje ... [Ubuwelewele.]
Mr S C MNCWABE: Point of order, Chair! Point of order, Chairperson!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let the member finish.
Hon members, just get into the habit of waiting for a member to finish what they are saying and then you can rise on what you think is a point of order. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Mnu R A LEES: Hhayi ngibona ukuthi naye ufuna ukuphuthuma ukudla manjena ... [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.]
IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Cha! Cha! Musa ukukhuluma naye awuqede izindaba zakho.
Mr R A LEES
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr R A LEES: Hon Deputy Speaker, ngiyaxolisa [I apologise]. On behalf of the DA I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House:
The House debates the requirement for a member of the official opposition to chair the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
[Interjections.]
Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am very disturbed by the motion of the hon member of the DA when he says, ``On the next sitting we must debate that the NFP, the APC and the ANC is one party.’’ I do not think that is a logical motion that any reasonable person can bring. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order.
Dr H C VOLMINK
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Dr H C VOLMINK: Deputy Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:
This House debates the government’s ongoing failure to implement a national 112 emergency call centre system, and the tragic consequence that this had had in terms of our capacity to manage life-threatening emergencies.
I so move.
[Interjections.]
Ms N R MASHABELA
Dr H C VOLMINK
Ms N R MASHABELA: Deputy Speaker, the EFF rises to move that at its next sitting:
The House debates that there are more bodyguards to Ministers than there are soldiers guarding our borders.
Ms N P SONTI
Ms N R MASHABELA
Ms N P SONTI: Sekela Mlomo, the EFF rises to give a notice that at its next sitting:
The House debates the nuclear deal that President Zuma negotiated by himself. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nithi niyangiqala futhi? [Ubuwelewele.]
Nks M S KHAWULA: Hhawu kodwa ngane, yisono lesi! Hheyi, hheyi! Bayamsukela uSonti!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are really cheapening the House by doing what you are doing now. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Ngizama ukuthi Sekela Somlomo bayamsukela uSonti!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER:No, no, hon Khawula. Please keep quiet!
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Badlala ngoSonti!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are out of order yourself, hon Khawula, please!
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I would like to give notice that at its next sitting:
This House debates the exact meaning of the phrase, ‘The lights of the Eiffel Tower are really shining tonight,’ as it relates to President Zuma.
[Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day:
This House discusses those municipalities under the control of the NFP in KwaZulu-Natal, any allegations of corruption and mismanagement there, and the effect of the entire co-option by the ANC on that party.
[Applause.] [Interjections.]
Mr N P KHOZA
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, the EFF rises to give notice that at its next sitting:
The House debates the failure of the ANC-led government to resolve the land claims issues in Mpumalanga at Emakhazeni Local Municipality in Wonderfontein area, Chief Albert Luthuli Local Municipality in the Vriesland and Steynsdorp area, and Mkhondo Local Municipality where the white people that still own the land are harassing people by demolishing their houses, beating the people and treating them as if they don’t exist.
I so move.
[Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the expropriation of land without compensation for equal distribution.
I so move.
Ms T STANDER
Ms H O MAXON
Ms T STANDER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates South Africa’s mandate for the upcoming Climate Change Conference of the Parties – COP - in Peru in December.
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS
Ms T STANDER
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates the blatant abuse of executive power and millions of rand in public money spent on ministerial boards of inquiry as political hit squads in an embarrassing attempt to silence governing party opponents, as pioneered by the Minister of Human Settlements.
Mr D J MAYNIER
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS
Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans’ mathematical abilities, in view of the fact that for the past two years she has been unable to resolve a basic mathematical problem, which is: Did the hon Lindiwe Sisulu take 35 flights or 203 flights on ultraluxurious privately owned Gulfstream executive jets?
[Interjections.]
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Mr D J MAYNIER
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the inconstant and irrational application of the National Assembly Rules by the various Chairpersons.
Prof N M KHUBISA
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the NFP that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates whether the DA, the EFF and other parties are in a pact and an unholy alliance whose motive is to discuss frivolous, petty and trivial matters as a way of derailing the House.
[Interjections.]
Mr S C MNCWABE
Prof N M KHUBISA
Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the NFP that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House discusses the apartheid mentality of the DA and the new dispensation.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I rise on Rule 63. What the member has said about the DA having an apartheid mentality is offensive, and I ask that he withdraw it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we will come back to that.
Mr W HORN
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr W HORN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the impact of the cloud of allegations against our President on the fight against corruption in the public sector.
I so move.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, sorry;I asked you to make a ruling.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I did say I would come back to that.
Mr G R DAVIS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr G R DAVIS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates how SABC Chief Operating Officer Hlaudi Motsoeneng has been deployed by President Zuma to turn the public broadcaster into a propaganda machine.
Mr M S MBATHA
Mr G R DAVIS
Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the filthy conditions of various provincial hospitals, such as the Rob Ferreira Hospital in Mpumalanga, after they were taken over by the ANC government.
Ms D KOHLER
Mr M S MBATHA
Ms D KOHLER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the casual nail painting undertaken during the Nkandla ad hoc committee meeting.
Prof B BOZZOLI
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
Prof B BOZZOLI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates the President’s aversion to accountability, going so far as to say that corruption is only a crime in a Western paradigm.
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Prof B BOZZOLI
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates whether, in fact, the NFP is now attending ANC branch meetings, as overheard in the corridors of Parliament.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Mr D W MACPHERSON
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the NFP that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates the DA’s opposition to the building of places of worship, including mosques and temples, in the so-called previously white residential areas.
[Interjections.]
Prof N M KHUBISA
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the NFP that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House deliberates on the clandestine moves of the DA which are encapsulated in apartheid tactics.
Mr G A GARDEE
Prof N M KHUBISA
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the findings of the fraudulent driver’s licence, now revoked, once provided by the Mpumalanga traffic authority in Delmas in the 1990s, and the findings of the Moldenhauer commission, in favour of the Speaker, the hon Ms Baleka Mbete.
Mr R W T CHANCE
Mr G A GARDEE
Mr R W T CHANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates how President Zuma’s legal team initially got the spy tapes in their possession.
Ms T STANDER
Mr R W T CHANCE
Ms T STANDER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the Minister of Environmental Affairs’ failure and/or refusal to release the names of the panel of experts appointed in January 2014, and meeting since April 2014, to investigate the possible trade in rhino horn.
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Ms T STANDER
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates transformation or the lack thereof in South African rugby.
Ms N W A MICHAEL
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Ms N W A MICHAEL: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates whether the South African government’s fostering of closer relations with China and Russia, under President Zuma’s watch, is having a negative effect on the President’s understanding of democratic principles such as openness and accountability.
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Ms N W A MICHAEL
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates the practice of labour-broking in light of government’s commitment to creating sustainable jobs, and the effects of this practice in relation to workers’ rights to organise and unionise.
Mr G MACKAY
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Mr G MACKAY: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the collapsing and failing electrical infrastructure, resulting in 400 power outages in two years, in the Brakpan-Tsakane area.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH
Mr G MACKAY
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move
That the House debates the total ban of single-use retail plastic bags from retail stores in South Africa, as was done successfully in Rwanda in 2008.
Mr J VOS
Mr T J BRAUTESETH
Mr J VOS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates whether Minister Hanekom would consider declaring Nkandla a tourist destination, given the fact that millions of taxpayers’ money was spent on building it.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr J VOS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Your ruling, Speaker, on matters relating to a matter that is coming up later in the House?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are out of order and you know it. There is no question about it. You know you are out of order, and that matter is not going to ... [Inaudible.]
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move :
That the House debates the lack of funding for the implementation of the National Sport and Recreation Plan.
Mr M S MBATHA
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN
Mr T E MULAUDZI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the continuing incarceration of former freedom fighters two decades after the attainment of our freedom.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr M S MBATHA
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the ANC that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House congratulates the DA on having successfully completed an induction course on howling from the EFF.
[Applause.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the ANC that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the state of anarchy and mockery in the House as a result of the behaviour of some of the opposition members, and that we earned our hard-earned democracy through blood and sweat and sacrifice - a notion and understanding that none of these members will ever understand.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS CONTD
Ms N V NQWENISO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the desirability or lack thereof, and the cost implications to the National Treasury of having two capitals in one country, one legislative, here in Cape Town, and the other administrative in Tshwane.
Mr K Z MORAPELA:
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the role and the continuing relevance of the International Criminal Court in prosecuting African personalities.
I so move.
Ms S J NKOMO
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the IFP that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House-
debates how to curtail the verbal diarrhoea in this House.
[Interjections.]
Mr B D JOSEPH:
Ms S J NKOMO
Afrikaans:
Mnr B D JOSEPH: Adjunkspeaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat op die volgende sitting van die Huis ek namens die EFF sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis die gebruik van die RF-geweer gedurende protesaksie vir skadebeheer, bespreek.
Mr B L MASHILE
Mr B D JOSEPH
Mr B L MASHILE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the ANC that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the Housedebates the significance of the Rules and the authority of the presiding officers in the running of the business of the House.
Mr N P KHOZA
Mr B L MASHILE
Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the mineworkers not paid by Aurora mine, which is owned by Jacob Zuma’s son.
Mr G A GARDEE
Mr N P KHOZA
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the EFF that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House-
debates the purchase of buffalo and impala valued at over R100 million or so whilst 34 people from Marikana are lying dead in cemeteries, and their next of kin sleep without food because the breadwinners are no more in the company where the Deputy President is a director.
Ms X S TOM
Mr G A GARDEE
IsiXhosa:
Nksk X S TOM: Sekela Somlomo, ndiphakama ngeenjongo zokwazisa ukuba kwixesha elilandelayo le Ndlu ihlala ndimela umbutho kaKhongolose ukuba:
Le Ndlu yoWiso-mthetho-
ixoxe ngophando omalwenziwe kubacinezeli bantlandlolo neengcuka ezambethe ufele lwegusha ezisahleli ebhotolweni; zinabele ejemini; ziqamele ngesonka samasi kwaye zisitya isidudu ngomcinga, babe abantu abazindlalifa bezimpula zikalujaca nemipha echutywe yalahlwa.
Ndiyabulela.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Motions without notice
Ms X S TOM
ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT BY KWAZULU-NATAL SCHOOL PRINCIPAL
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the NFP:
That the House—
- notes that a Durban high school principal was removed by the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education on Monday, after allegations of sexual misconduct with a pupil;
- further notes that the principal will be brought before a disciplinary tribunal of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education;
- acknowledges that allegations of sexual misconduct by educators in South Africa involving learners is prevalent; and
- implores the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education to mete out the harshest possible sanction should the principal be found guilty of sexual misconduct, in order to send a strong signal to all educators that sexual misconduct with learners will not be tolerated in South Africa.
Agreed to.
Mr E SHAIK EMAM
MR S MNCWABE
MOTION PROPOSED BY SOUTH AFRICAN SADC PARLIAMENTARY FORUM DELEGATION
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
on behalf of the NFP
That the House—
- notes the motion proposed by the South African delegation of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, Parliamentary Forum which was held at Victoria Falls in Zimbabwe,
- further notes that the motion was unanimously supported by all member states for any infrastructure development to intra-African trade and implementation of Agenda 2063 to enhance social, cultural and economic development in the SADC region, and
- acknowledges that, if implemented, this motion augurs well for South Africa and its people at large.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If there are no objections, I put the motion. [Interjections.] There are objections. The motion falls away.
Mr S J MARAIS
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM
PROACTIVE INITIATIVES BY BONA FIDE FARM WORKERS AFTER UNREST IN DE DOORNS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S J F MARAIS: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- recalls the so-called farm worker unrest in De Doorns two years ago;
- notes that the unrest had a negative effect on our economy and on the workers;
- further notes that there are clear indications of politically supported instigation by the Building and Allied Workers Union of South Africa, Bawusa, which resulted in this unrest;
- also notes the subsequent proactive initiatives by bona fide farm workers to stabilise the labour and economic environment and to negotiate with their employers in good faith;
- acknowledges the very successful peace marches undertaken by these farm workers as well as the excellent and progressive relations established between themselves, their employers, and local and provincial government; and
- congratulates the Hex Valley Farm Workers Association and employees for agreeing on a constructive way in which all can build and contribute to the economy and sustainable employment.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion. [Interjections.] The motion objected is to.
Ms R M M LESOMA
Mr S J MARAIS
GALA EVENT TO CELEBRATE ZIMBABWEAN-BORN MZANTSI LEGEND, DOROTHY MASUKU
(Draft Resolution)
Ms R M M LESOMA: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes the gala event to celebrate the Zimbabwean-born Mzansi legend, Dorothy Masuku, to be held at the Gallagher Convention Centre in Midrand on Saturday, 15 November 2014;
- further notes that the international music giant Oliver Mtukudzi is set to give an honorary performance for Masuku along with other trailblazers who claim Zimbabwe as their ancestral land;
- acknowledges that Dorothy Masuku, who changed her surname to Masuku, is a role model to many musicians in Africa as a whole; and
- congratulates those who have organised this event to honour even those legends who are still alive.
Agreed to.
Ms D ROBINSON
Ms R M M LESOMA
GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AND ABUSE
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs D ROBINSON: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that many women in South Africa live in perpetual fear of abuse;
- further notes that gender-based violence, in particular, is rife and hardly a week goes by in South Africa without us being confronted with a horrific report in the media about child or woman abuse;
- recognises that there were 16 charges against on-duty police officers and 37 reported rape cases against off-duty police officers between April and September this year;
- acknowledges that the Independent Police Investigative Directorate revealed this in a report to Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Police yesterday;
- further acknowledges that the Western Cape has the highest number of rape cases against on-duty police officers, followed by Gauteng;
- recalls that the 16 Days of Activism Against Abuse of Women is fast approaching at the end of November, and it is a well-known fact that the incidence of sexual crimes in South Africa is extremely high; and
- calls on the Minister of Police and the Minister for Women in the Presidency to urgently intervene to ensure the safety of our most vulnerable women and children.
Let the women’s Ministry actually do something and monitor.
Agreed to.
Mr M P SIBANDE
Ms D ROBINSON
2014 INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF SOLIDARITY WITH THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that, in its resolution A/68/12 of 26 November 2013, the United Nations General Assembly decided to proclaim 2014 as the International Year of Solidarity with the Palestinian People;
- further notes that in 1977, the General Assembly called for the annual observance of 29 November as the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People;
- believes that the Palestinian people have a right to self-determination, which includes and recognises the sovereign independent state of Palestine, living peacefully side-by-side with Israel;
- encourages all South Africans to observe the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People and to continue to give the widest support and publicity to the observance of the Day of Solidarity; and
- calls upon our government, civil society and interfaith religious bodies, youth and student formations to heighten solidarity with the Palestinian people, with the aim of finding a just solution in order to help to bring peace to the region and to end conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
Agreed to.
Mr N SINGH
Mr M P SIBANDE
FOURTH ANNIVERSARY OF BRUTAL MURDER OF MS ANNI HINDOCHA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the IFP I hereby move without notice:
That the House—
- notes with sadness that today marks the fourth anniversary of the brutal murder of Ms Anni Hindocha;
- recognises the growing levels of violent crime in domestic relationships in South Africa;
- supports all initiatives aimed at reducing domestic violence, which includes domestic abuse, spousal abuse, battering, family violence and intimate partner violence; and
- sends its heartfelt support to the Hindocha family during this difficult time.
Agreed to.
Rev K R J MESHOE
Mr N SINGH
JASPER SOLAR POWER PROJECT
(Draft Resolution)
Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the ACDP I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the Jasper Solar Power Project, which was developed by SolarReserve and partly by Google, has been completed and is now fully operational;
- recognises that this is the biggest solar power project on the African continent;
- commends SolarReserve, whose project is set to power 80 000 households in the country, for completing the project two months ahead of schedule;
- welcomes SolarReserve chief executive officer Kevin Smith’s announcement that the Jasper project will not only help South Africa meet its critical electricity needs by providing clean energy to our people, but that it will bring long-lasting economic benefits to the region in the Northern Cape; and
- further welcomes reports about future projects, including their upcoming Concentrated Solar Power, CSP, projects that will provide South Africa with clean, reliable and nonintermittent electricity, day and night.
Agreed to.
Mr B A RADEBE
Rev K R J MESHOE
CELEBRATING LIFE AND CONTRIBUTION OF DR NELSON MANDELA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B A HADEBE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the ANC I hereby move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that plans are under way to celebrate the life and contribution of Dr Nelson Mandela, one year after he died;
- further notes that, to mark the anniversary, Cricket SA has partnered with the Nelson Mandela Foundation and the SA Rugby Union to host a T20 cricket match between the Proteas and Springboks on 5 December, at the Wanderers Stadium;
- acknowledges that various fundraising initiatives will take place on the day, with the proceeds going to the Nelson Mandela Foundation; and
- congratulates the organisers of this event for keeping Madiba’s legacy alive.
Agreed to.
Ms LOVEMORE
Mr B A RADEBE
COMPETENCY TESTS AND PROFESSIONAL ACCREDITATION FOR NEWLY QUALIFIED TEACHERS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms A T LOVEMORE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I hereby move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that South African children are, by every national and international assessment, not numerate or literate at the required levels;
- further notes that recent highly credible research showed that many teachers are leaving university ill-equipped to teach;
- acknowledges that it is common cause that appointments of teachers are often based on union affiliation and not merit;
- recalls that the National Development Plan requires competency tests for new teachers to be in place by 2016; and
- demands that every teacher leaving university be professionally tested and accredited before being allowed to enter the profession.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion. [Interjections.] It is objected to; the motion falls away.
Mr HILL-LEWIS
Ms A T LOVEMORE
UNNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR OF MINISTER LINDIWE ZULU
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G HILL-LEWIS: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that Minister Lindiwe Zulu has behaved despicably by physically attacking another hon member;
- further notes that the video of this incident is already all over social media;
- also notes that the Minister’s behaviour is unacceptable and unbecoming; and
- recognises that the Minister has covered herself in shame.
Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is an objection; the motion falls away..
Mr S C MOTAU
Mr G HILL-LEWIS
BUDGET INCREASE REQUESTED FOR DEPARTMENT OF PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION BY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S C MOTAU: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the Minister in the Presidency has requested the National Treasury to increase the budget of the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation by a staggering R700 million to more than R1 billion over the medium term, to end 2017-18;
- further notes that the Minister plans to deploy the additional funds to create more than 750 new posts in the department during the short space of time, and wonders if this is some form of empire-building exercise;
- also notes that the Presidency is making this request at a time when the public wage bill already costs the overburdened taxpayer more than R450 billion a year;
- urges that, rather than making such an exorbitant demand on the already overstretched Treasury, government should exercise stringent fiscal discipline and apply itself to finding more austere alternatives to achieve superior performance outcomes; and
- calls on the Minister of Finance to reject this astronomical request from the Presidency, as its approval could only serve to deepen the ANC’s crony network by opening further undeserved opportunities for cadre deployment.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there any ...
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please allow me to finish.
Ms D KOHLER: I have a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hold on, hold on please. Just wait until the process is over. If you speak simultaneously who do we listen to? So just be orderly, please.
I put the motion. Is there any objection?
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
Ms D KOHLER: My point of order is that hon Minister Zulu has been seen referring to the hon Hill-Lewis as a liar. The evidence is all over YouTube so I don’t know why she would say that. I obviously would ask that you rule and that she withdraws and apologises.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, that is unparliamentary, hon members. [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, please withdraw. [Interjections.] Hon members, we do not use YouTube as a basis for making decisions in the House. That is incorrect, but hon member, kindly withdraw the statement.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, I unconditionally withdraw saying that he is a liar.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.
Mr N P KHOZA
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOMENT
MBD CONSUMER FINANCIAL VULNERABILITY INDEX SHOWS 73% OF SOUTH AFRICANS ARE FINANCIALLY VULNERABLE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N P KHOZA: Hon Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are out of order! You can’t scream across the floor and make the threats that you are making. It’s wrong to do that anywhere in the House. It’s incorrect. You can’t do those kinds of things. [Interjections.] No, no, no, don’t say you were provoked! You yourself are provoking people! It’s disorderly conduct in the first place. Proceed, hon member.
Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that 73% of South Africans are financially vulnerable, according to the MBD Consumer Financial Vulnerability Index released yesterday;
- further notes that the main cause of financial vulnerability was insufficient income and the inability of South Africans to cope with the increase in debt servicing;
- recognises that although there was an improvement of 1,2%, a total of 73,1% of South Africans are not in control of their finances;
- observes that South Africans are unjustly expected to pay high prices for basic human rights like quality education and quality health care;
- also notes that South Africans have to pay high rent and mortgages to live in safer and secured areas;
- further recognises that the black middle class in South Africa is increasingly in debt and literally a paycheck away from poverty; and
- also recognises that 20 years into democracy, the quality of free basic services to our people and the plummeting of 73% of South Africans into debt has forced 73,1% of our people into debt slavery.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion. Are there objections to the motion?
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
.
Mr L W GREYLING
Mr N P KHOZA
GRI RENEWABLE INDUSTRIES OPENS R300 MILLION WIND TURBINE TOWER PRODUCTION FACILITY IN GREEN TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRIAL PARK IN ATLANTIS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr L W GREYLING: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that GRI Renewable Industries yesterday announced the official opening of a brand new R300 million wind turbine tower production facility in the Green Technology Industrial Park in Atlantis in the Western Cape;
- further notes that when operating at full capacity, the 12 000sqm factory will be able to produce a ... [Inaudible.] ... wind towers annually;
[Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, asizile ukuzodlala la, ngicela usikhuzele la ’bantu abangapha. Uyabona leya ’ngane ebomvu, ayisazi nokuthi siyini thina. Kade kukhuluma uSonti imlingisela. Manje, ngiyacela ... [Ubuwelewele.]
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
Nk M S KHAWULA: ... ake niyiyekeni le nto yokuthi uma ngabe laba benza izinto ningabanaki ...
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order! You can’t just speak without being recognised. How can you do that? No, no, no ...
IsiZulu:
... ngikhuza wena okokuqala nje ... awunamthetho wena okokuqala nje.
English:
If you do that, you are going to leave this House.
Ms A MATSHOBENI: No, she was raising a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you are out ... [Interjections.] ... no, no, no, hon member!
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Hon Mabe is screaming all the time. Mabe is always screaming. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, listen! [Interjections.]
Hon members, you have to be respectful. If you do that again, you are going to be thrown out yourself. You are actually defeating the purpose for and reason why you are rising. No, no, you are out of order! You must wait to be given a chance.
IsiZulu:
Ayikho le nto oyishoyo Mama ngoba kufanele ulinde ukuze ukhonjwe, uma usukhonjiwe kube yima ukhuluma. Hhayi ukhulume nje ngoba kuthanda wena. Kunemithetho la okufanele ilandelwe kahle futhi ngendlela ehlelekile.
English:
[Interjections.] Hold on, hon members. Let me first do this.
Hon Mabe, please don’t do what you are doing, literally as we are speaking. Don’t do that. You are out of order!
Mr Z M D MANDELA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. Can the hon member withdraw the statement she made...
IsiZulu:... ``ingane ebomvu’’.
English:
There is no ``ingane ebomvu’’ here. We are all hon members.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there is a microphone.
IsiZulu:
Awuqhubeke uhoxise lawo mazwi akho, mhlonishwa.
Nk M S KHAWULA:
Ngiyabonga ukuthi nina la niyasicindezela, nisiqhatha nezingane. Ngiyadrowa [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.] Kodwa, ziyeyisa izingane zakho. [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.]
Mr Z M D MANDELA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... [Interjections.] Hold on, hon member. Hon Khawula, you have not withdrawn but you have repeated it and that is out of order. I suggest you withdraw unconditionally as it is out of order. You have to do it.
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hold on, hon member; let the hon member finish.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Kulungile, Sihlalo ngizohoxisa, kodwa ngiyakucela nami, ngane yakwethu, uke usivikele. Ngiyahoxisa!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right, hon member.
IsiZulu:
Uqhedile-ke Mama.
English:
Take your seat, please. Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Ungaqhubeki! Ungabe usaqhubeka, ungabe usalinge!
Nk M S KHAWULA: Kodwa, uzosikhuzela?
IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Musa ukuqhubeka. Ngicela uhlale phansi!
English:
Hon member?
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Deputy Speaker, I was going to correct the hon member that it’s not a ``draw’’, but ``withdraw’’. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member. It’s okay.
Ms S KHAWULA
Mr Z M D MANDELA
Ms N V NQWENISO: On a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s not a point of order.
Ms N V NQWENISO: On a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s not a point of order. Hon members!
Ms N V NQWENISO: On a point of order.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
Ms N V NQWENISO: On a point of order.
Ms M S KHAWULA: On a point of order.
IsiZulu:
Sekela Somlomo, ngyabonga baba. Mina ... uzongikhomba-ke emva kwalokho?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hold on!
Ms N V NQWENISO: On a point of order.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: NgingumZulu mina!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t both of you be talking. You can’t. And don’t scream at me, member! Don’t scream at me; you have no business doing that.
Ms N V NQWENISO: On a point of order, please!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what are you rising on?
Ms N V NQWENISO: The point of order is that there are several languages in South Africa.
IsiXhosa: Ukuba umntu uthetha ulwimi lwakhe, aze athethe loo nto ngendlela ayithetha ngayo, masingathukwa apha eNdlini ngokumana silungiswa iziphene – masingathukwa. Abo bafunde kakhulu ukugqitha abanye, abazelanga imfundo yabo apha. Sivotelwe ukuze sibe lapha.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat. I have ruled on that.
Mr L W GREYLING: Deputy Speaker, I didn’t realise my motion would get such a strong reaction but I am glad.
I further move that the House:
- also notes that when operating at full capacity the 12 000sqm factory will be able to produce a 150 wind towers annually;
- acknowledges that this is a giant leap forward in the provision of renewable clean energy and, most importantly, reliable energy alternatives in South Africa;
- further acknowledges that the factory will not only create 200 permanent jobs for the people of Atlantis but will also teach many new skills that currently do not exist anywhere in the country; and
- conveys our message ofsupport to the company, its employees and city officials involved in this wonderful project.
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS
Mr L W GREYLING
HAWKS COMMENDED FOR PREVENTING ALLEGED ATTEMPTED THEFT
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- commends the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation - or the Hawks - for preventing the alleged attempted theft of up to R800 million from the Gautrain;
- notes the arrest of an IT specialist who hacked the Gautrain management agency systems containing bank codes, passwords and financial details of staff;
- further notes that the suspect is to appear in the Johannesburg specialised commercial crimes court today on charges of fraud, corruption and contravening the Electronic Communication’s Act;
- calls on government in general and the Justice Crime Prevention and Security cluster of Ministers in particular to urgently review and strengthen the legislative and regulatory framework to combat cyber crimes; and
- further urges urgent steps to protect South Africans and their personal information and assets from cyber criminals.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: As there is an objection, the motion falls away.
Ms R N CAPA
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS
REMAINS OF MISSING TODDLER FROM NJIMBINXINI VILLAGE RECOVERED
(Draft Resolution)
IsiXhosa:
Ms R N CAPA: Sekela Somlomo ohloniphekileyo, egameni le-ANC, ndiphakamisa ukuba kwindibano elandelayo yale Ndlu:
Le Ndlu yoWiso-mthetho-
ivuyisane nosaphjo lwakwaKhayiyana kwilali yaseNjimbinxeni oluthe lona lwabuyiselwa intsalela zomntwana wabo oneminyaka emine owalahleka kweyoMdumba kulo nyaka;
sivuyisane kanjalo nobuchule bophando eMzantsi Afrika olukwazileyo ukuhlanganisa iintsalela zomntwana kunye nonina;
iqaphele ukuba la mathambo aza kulaliswa ngoxolo kule nyanga ibekelwe bucala njengenyanga yokujongana nokuphathwa gadalala kabuhlungu kwabantwana;
iqaphele ukuba le nto yenzeke ebantwini abangathathi ntweni;
iqaphele ukuba i-ANC, oonontlalontle namapolisa bayakwazi ukubonelela abantu abangathathi ntweni; kwaye
iqaphele ukuba siyayazi ukuba le nto ayibalulekanga kwabo benza ukuba kube nje.
Agreed to.
Mr T C WALTERS
Ms R N CAPA
WESTERN CAPE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE RATED TOP AGRICULTURAL DEPARTMENT IN COUNTRY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T C R WALTERS: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the Western Cape Department of Agriculture has regularly been rated the top agricultural department in the country;
- also notes that land reform in the Western Cape shows the highest success rate in South Africa;
- further notes that the Western Cape has announced that it will pilot land reform and give meaningful content to the segment in the National Development Plan, NDP, relating to land reform, unlike other provinces; and
- congratulates the Western Cape government on its consistent success in land reform and on developing a viable rural economy under trying economic circumstances and the difficulties created by constant politically influenced criminality.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Ms A LOTRIET
Mr T C WALTERS
EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY LANDS A CRAFT ON A COMET
(Draft Resolution)
Dr A LOTRIET: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That this House—
- notes that yesterday afternoon, 12 November 2014, the world witnessed a truly historic moment as the European Space Agency magnificently landed a craft on a comet;
- also notes that this the first time that a space craft was successfully landed on a comet;
- further notes that the landing took place approximately 510 million km from Earth on a comet racing through space at 18km per second;
- acknowledges that the one billion pound Rosetta mission was officially launched in March 2004 when the space craft lifted off in French Guinea;
- also acknowledges that the craft travelled through six billion km of space for over more than 10 years to finally reach the comet;
- further acknowledges the incredible magnitude of this accomplishment and the importance of this landing in the fields of astronomy, space science and space exploration; and
- congratulates the European Space Agency and all other role- players who work tirelessly to make this huge leap for mankind possible.
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please wait for me to ask the question. Don’t say it before I ask.
The motion falls away in light of the objection.
Mr M L W FILTANE
Ms A LOTRIET
ALLEGATION OF ROTTEN FEEDING SCHEMES IN LIMPOPO PROVINCE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the UDM I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that there are allegation of rotten feeding schemes in Limpopo province, where about 275 pupils at Makeke Primary school were reportedly taken to hospital on Monday;
- further notes that suppliers reportedly supplied food that had no expiry date and, in some instances, provided nutrition that was not prescribed by the department’s nutrition regulations;
- recalls that these kinds of allegations are not new as, in 2007, Lindokuhle Boya reported about a rotten feeding scheme in the Eastern Cape;
- condemns suppliers who supply rotten food to public schools and tender boards who award tenders to these suppliers; and
- calls for all relevant stakeholders to probe these allegations, and to bring perpetrators to book and sanction them not to do business with government in the future.
Agreed to.
Ms H O MAXON
Mr M L W FILTANE
SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE DECISION TO INVESTIGATE CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST PRESIDENT ZUMA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes the decision by the SA Police Service to investigate the criminal charges laid by the opposition parties against President Zuma for the R250 million unduly spent on his private Nkandla home;
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we made a ruling on that matter. [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON:
- further notes that the Public Protector found that President Zuma and his family unduly benefited from the non-security upgrade on his home;
- acknowledges that President Zuma has wilfully ignored the recommendations that he must pay back the money...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are ignoring the Chair!
Ms H O MAXON: Sorry?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are ignoring the Chair! We have said before that the matter that you are referring to can’t be put before the House when it is coming to the House. [Interjections.]
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no need to object. It will not be considered at all, so we won’t put it to the House for that reason.
MS H O MAXON
CITIZENS OF MOKOPONG IN LIMPOPO MARCH PEACEFULLY TO MUNICIPAL OFFICES TO DELIVER MEMORANDUM
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D VAN DER WALT: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the citizens of Mokopong in Limpopo peacefully marched to the municipal offices to hand over a memorandum demanding proper service delivery to all areas and all residents;
- further notes—
- that ten minutes before the march commenced, the mayor instructed a DA councillor to receive the memorandum on her behalf as she was attending an ANC meeting during office hours;
- the acting municipal manager was not on duty and that the municipal gates were locked, preventing any citizen from dealing with their municipal business for hours; and
- the mayor has again not met the demand of the citizens to report back on these issues at a public meeting on 12 November, which was yesterday;
- acknowledges that it is common cause in this and other municipalities in Limpopo not to serve the citizens;
- recalls that various Acts prescribe the duties, functions of municipalities and the need for public participation; and
- resolves that every local municipality appoints only qualified staff that understand and adhere to the relevant laws governing it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are there any objections to the motion?
Ms R M M LESOMA: Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects to this motion.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is an objection. The motion falls away.
Mr K S MUBU
Ms D VAN DER WALT (DA)
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS INTRODUCES THIRD PHASE OF EXPANDED PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAMME
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K S MUBU: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes that the Department of Public Works has introduced the third phase of the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP;
- notes that the purpose of the EPWP is to provide work opportunities and income support to poor and unemployed people through labour-intensive delivery of public and community assets and services;
- further notes that the programme is fraught with challenges associated with underreporting and poor data reporting, inconsistent implementation of labour- intensive projects across all implementing bodies across the three spheres of government due to poor technical capacity; and
- calls on the Department of Public Works to put in place measures to ensure that the EPWP programme benefits all South Africans and not only members of the ANC throughout the country.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Mr M P SIBANDE: The ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mr J R LORIMER
Mr K S MUBU
REVITALISING MINING INDUSTRY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J R B LORIMER: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) noting the shrinkage of the mining industry that includes reduced tax income and declining employment;
- this House moves to revitalise the mining industry by bringing before the House new legislation that will
- bring certainty to the extractive industry through governing by legislation rather than regulation;
- prescribe timeframes in the law for all licensing decisions and to ensure that these timeframes are as short as possibly compatible with sound environmental practice;
- protect security of tenure;
- provide holders of prospecting rights the exclusive right to develop what they discover;
- provide holders of rights with access to judicial and administrative review of regulatory decisions; and
- ensure that the fiscal regime relating to both prospecting and mining is designed to attract investment and grow the industry.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, I object to this one and any other motion which is going to be put. [Laughter.].
Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Deputy Speaker. May I call for order?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you calling for order, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: Can you please make a ruling about the latter part of the hon Minister’s utterances?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there is no need for a ruling, hon member. There is no ruling worth making there.
Ms H BOSHOF
Mr J R LORIMER
CURATORSHIP OF MPUMALANGA HEALTH DEPARTMENT LIFTED FOUR MONTHS AFTER IMPLEMENTATION
(Draft Resolution)
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes that the curatorship of the Mpumalanga health department was lifted a mere four months after implementation;
- also notes that the department of health has been battling with administrative and financial mismanagement;
- further notes that hospitals and clinics across the province are grappling with severe staff shortages, equipment and medicine;
- acknowledges that this department has used all of its R8 million budget but met less than 50% of its targets;
- also acknowledges that not only do these healthcare facilities suffer, but the constant loss of professional staff due to intolerant working conditions in any of the provinces’ care facilities has detrimental consequences;
- further acknowledges that four months is hardly sufficient time to even begin touching on the core challenges facing the department; and
- expresses our deepest concerns that the denial of the provincial executive will facilitate the total collapse of this crucial department.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mr D L TWALA
Ms H BOSHOF
RAPE CASES INVOLVING POLICE OFFICERS INCREASE BY 25%
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D L TWALA: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes the rape cases involving police officers have actually increased by 25% over the last two years;
- notes that cases of rape happen both inside and outside the policing environment;
- recognise that the North West province, for instance, had no rape cases reported last year, but this year 11 cases were reported;
- observes that there are discussions on harsher sentences for perpetrators of crime;
- further notes –
- that equal emphasis should be given to preventative measures;
- and knows that police officers do not exist outside of society but are a reflection of the makeup of South African society; and
- condemns the violence of the crime of rape and encourages that we move towards a structured society that respects women’s rights and cares for the vulnerable.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Ms V VAN DYK
Mr D L TWALA
CONGRATULATIONS TO THOLWANA MOHALE, WINNER OF THIS SEASON’S SOUTH AFRICA’S GOT TALENT
(Draft Resolution)
Ms V VAN DYK: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes that Tholwana Mohale walked away as the winner of this season’s South Africa’s Got Talent after a highly entertaining finale this past Sunday night;
- further notes that Mohale who hails from Steinkopf, Namaqualand, in the Northern Cape is not only the first winner from this province but also the first person from the Northern Cape to make it through to the finals;
Afrikaans:
- verder erken dat wat die prestasie nog groter maak is die feit dat sy slegs 14 jaar oud is en eers in 2011 leer kitaar speel het;
- sy gelukwense stuur aan Tholwana Mohale vir hierdie merkwaardige prestasie en haar alle sterkte toewens in alles wat sy in haar rooskleurige toekoms wil aanpak; en
- ’n boodskap van gelukwensing aan die Mohale gesin in Namakwaland stuur en sê dat die hele Suid-Afrika trots is op haar en dat daar beslis meer as klip en sand in Namakwaland is.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Mr M SIBANDE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mr A LEES
Ms V VAN DYK
APPALLING CONDITIONS AT VIMBUKHALO PRIMARY IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Draft Resolution)
Mr R A LEES: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes-
- with great concern the appalling conditions for the education of learners at the Vimbukhalo Primary in the Bergville district of northern KwaZulu-Natal;
- the school has 303 learners who are accommodated in four classrooms. This means that on average there are 75 learners in each room;
- there are eight teachers who are expected to teach eight grades in four rooms. Whilst there is a water storage tank and a borehole pump, there is no water available as the pump and its ancillary equipment apparently no longer work;
- the buildings are in urgent need of repair and the classrooms are in a disgustingly filthy state;
- last week the parents blockaded the school and prevented both teachers and learners from entering the classrooms at a time when learners are involved in year-end examinations; and
- calls on the Minister of Basic Education to urgently intervene to ensure that the learners get the education they deserve.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there any objection?
Mr M SIBANDE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mnr H C KRUGER
Mr R A LEES
IMPACT OF RED TAPE ON SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
(Draft Resolution)
Afrikaans:
Mnr H C C KRÜGER: Adjunkspeaker, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:
Dat die Huis—
- kennis neem van die negatiewe impak wat rompslomp en die onvermoë van die regering op die sukses van kleinsake het en dat die laaste ondersoek deur die regering in hierdie verband in 2004;
- verder kennis neem dat—
- rompslomp R79 miljard in 2004 uit kleinsake se sak gejaag het, ’n bedrag wat gelyk is aan 6,5% van Suid-Afrika se bruto binnelandse produk;
- hierdie bedrag vandag nader aan R2 miljard kan beloop; en
- rompslomp deur die regering en regeringverwante departemente in die pad staan van volhoubare werkskepping.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mr B D JOSEPH
Mnr H C KRUGER
GET WELL WISHES TO MARK FISH
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B D JOSEPH: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF, I move without notice:
That the House-
- notes that the South African soccer legend and a hero of the 1996 national squad, Mark Fish, has recently been hospitalised with heart problems;
- further notes that Mark Fish was one of the first generation of players to represent the country after its unbanning and was very important in the foundation stages of the country’s reintroduction to the world of football;
- acknowledges the role he played in the victory of Orlando Pirates when they became the first and still the only club in South Africa to win the African Champion’s League; and later, in 1996, he played a crucial role in ensuring that Bafana Bafana became continental champions;
- further acknowledge that Fish, like many other former players, were never supported enough to make sure that they do not struggle after their playing years were over, and
- wishes Mark Fish a speedy recovery.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE CONTD
SURVEY ON CITY OF CAPE TOWN’S JANITORIAL SERVICES
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
- notes that the Social Justice Coalition, working together with the Heinrich Böll Foundation which is related to the Green Party in Germany, in a recent study survey has found that janitors working for the City of Cape Town’s Expanded Public Works Programme janitorial services which service public toilets in Khayelitsha and other townships in South Africa are not provided with protective clothing, are not given any training, and are not given inoculations to protect them against dangerous work;
- further notes that the communities of Khayelitsha and other townships in the City of Cape Town are deeply concerned about the state of sanitation in their townships;
- acknowledges that the Social Justice Coalition came to a similar finding two years ago; and that the City of Cape Town and its mayor has made no attempt to correct this terrible situation;
- recognises that the South African Cities Network, in its survey of Expanded Public Works Programmes of seven different cities in South Africa, has found that the City of Cape Town’s Expanded Public Works Programme participants participated for the shortest duration by far of all the other cities, which accounts for many of these problems, and they are simply pumping numbers through the system without any concern for the services provided. They are simply trying to count headcounts and,
- condemns the City of Cape Town for this gross neglect of the welfare of the poor people of the City of Cape Town.
Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on the basis of senseless disingenuity, we object. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER:The motion falls away.
Mr M S MBATHA
Mr J CRONIN
DECISION TO ARREST 2010 FIFA WORLD CUP FRAUDSTERS APPLAUDED
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF, I move without notice:
That the House -
IsiZulu:
- Ibonge iziphathimandla zezemincintiswano ngokuthi zithathe isinqumo sokubopha lezi zigebengu ezahlangana zakhwabanisa ngesikhathi thina izwe lifake isicelo sokwengamela Imidlalo Yendebe Yomhlaba Ye-Fifa yowezi-2010;
- Iphinde ikuveze ukuthi lobu bugebengu abungaqalanga lapho, kade babenzeka;
- Inxuse ukuba uhulumeni enze konke okusemandleni ukuqikelela ukuthi lezi zigebengu zingavalelwa nje kuphela, kodwa uhulumeni aphinde afake isicelo sokuba ikhokhwe le mali eyantshontshwa;
- Igcizelele ukuthi kwakungeke kube lula lokhu ukube babengekho osopolitiki balabo masipala abadumile; kanye nokuthi
- Iphinde idlulise umyalezo omkhulu emndenini wa-Jimmy Mohlala, owafela le nkinga eMpumalanga; okwakhe kwaba wusizi olukhulu.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
English:
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: The NFP objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is an objection to the motion. It falls away.
Ms M S KHAWULA
Mr M S MBATHA
STARK INCONSISTENCIES BETWEEN RURAL AND URBAN RDP HOUSES
(Draft Resolution)
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sekela Somlomo, ngiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso:
Ukuthi Le Ndlu-
- Ibheke ukuthi kungani izindlu zasemakhaya zingafani nezasemadolobheni. Ezasemakhaya izicabha zakhona zingezikathayela ngisho nophahla lwakhona lunguthayela. Azinamathoyilethi ngaphakathi, azinamanzi nosinki. Bengiyocela ukuthi lubhekisiswe lolu daba;
- Okwesibili, ake kubhekwe nale nkinga yokuthi uma kulethwa lezi zindlu emakhaya, abanikazi bezindlu kababi nazwi lokukhomba lapho kuzobekwa khona indlu; indlu ibekwa noma kuphi ngaphandle kwegceke. Noma seyibekiwe ngaphandle kwegceke, uma kukhona umnikazi akhala ngakho, igama liye lithi akemukele indlu leyo ngoba eyamahhala, futhi ayisayinele ukuze abakhi bakhokhelwe; iphinde
- Icele ukuba lolu daba lubhekisiswe ngoba laba bantu basenkingeni abakwazi nokuzikhulumela ngoba bayesatshiswa.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
English:
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away. [Interjections.]
No! One of you must sit down, hon members; you can’t all stand simultaneously!
Mr G A GARDEE
Ms M S KHAWULA
FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF PASSING AWAY OF FORMER PRESIDENT NELSON MANDELA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF, I move without notice:
That the House sends its heartfelt condolence message on the first anniversary of the passing away of the iconic personality and former President, the hon Mandela, as the anniversary, which will be on 5 December, will take place when the House is in recess.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Ms H O MAXON
Mr G A GARDEE
REPORT BY AD HOC COMMITTEES ON NKANDLA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF, I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes the report by both the ad hoc committees on Nkandla and Powers and Privileges Committee’s investigation into the demand for the President, Zuma, to pay back the money;
further notes
- …
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we just ruled against you on the same matter and you are returning to it. [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, I have a problem. This issue is out in the media ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is on the agenda. You’ve said you want the Rules to be applied, and I’m applying the Rule that you should not anticipate the matter that is to be discussed in the House.
Ms H O MAXON: Anyway, I so move.
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Ms H O MAXON
CONGRATULATIONS TO ANC ON THEIR OBJECTIONS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House congratulates the ANC on their objection to the motion from the EFF about the rape of a woman, which was presented by the hon Twala.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
.
Mr T E MULAUDZI
Mr K Z MORAPELA
MOROCCO’S REFUSAL TO HOST 2015 AFRICAN CUP OF NATIONS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T E MULAUDZI: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF I move without notice:
That the House –
- notes with great sadness the refusal by Morocco to host the 2015 African Cup of Nations, hiding behind fears of the Ebola virus;
further notes that Morocco will be hosting a World Youth Championship event in December but are scared to host Africans a month later, and that their anti-black racism and afrophobia is there for everybody to se
- e;
acknowledges that Morocco is an anti-black Arouncilorser and that, as we speak, they are subjecting the people of Sahara to repressive and inhumane treatment
- ;
further acknowledges that Morocco is not even part of the African Union; they do not consider themselves Africans and the should ban them permanently from ever taking part in African competitions; a
- nd
urges the House to voice its displeasure at Morocco’s unfortunate anti-African stanc
- e.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Ms M S KHAWULA
Mr T E MULAUDZI
GOVERNMENT URGED TO IMPROVE SERVICE DELIVERY
(Draft Resolution)
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sekela Somlomo, ngiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso:
Ukuthi Le Ndlu-
- Idingide udaba lwalezi zindlu ...Idingide udaba lwabafelokazi abanemizi abashonelwa abayeni; izintandane, nabazukulu abaphephile [Ubuwelewele.]– yeounami ngashonelwa umkhwenyane![Uhleko.] – abanye abanamali yokubuyisela imizi amagameni abo – lolu hlelo lokudluliselwa kobunikazi, ukuthi uma umuzi ububiza ubaba ubuyele kumama, le nto yamatayitele, ukuthi uma belibiza ubaba libe selibuyela kumama ngale kokuhlukumezeka;
Iphinde iqinisekise ukuthi kuvulwa amahhovisi ayekade ekhona njengaKwaMashu esigcemeni sakwa-E, lawo ayebizwa ngokuthi awonsumpa, lapho sasithelela khona amanzi ukuba avulwe asebenz
- e;
Iphinde income ukuba kuvulwe la makolisi okuqeqesha othisha ayevuliwe esebenza kuqala njengoNtuzuma College of Education, Amanzimtoti College of Education, UMbumbulu College of Education, Gamalakhe College of Education, Eshowe College of Education nakwaGqikazi College of Education; iphin
- de
Ikuvume ukuthi lawo makolishi ayesiza ngoba ayandisa imisebenzi. Baningi abantu ababesebenza, abanye beqeqeshwa khona. Manje njengoba sikhuluma nje abantu abasakwazi ukukwenza lokho, abanazo izimali zokuziphilisa
- .
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
Mr G A GARDEE
PRESIDENT ZUMA EXONERATED OF ACCOUNTABILITY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the EFF, I move without notice:
That the House –
- congratulates President Zuma for being exonerated of accountability in the Nkandlagate scandal, as per the findings published in the ATC.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s not put before the House.
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects. [Interjections.]
EXPENSIVE DRUG REHABILITATION SEES ONLY FEW PEOPLE IN REHABILITATION
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N V NQWENISO: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of EFF and move without notice:
That the House –
- Notes
- the expert opinion by Mr Jason Eligh of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime that only one in 18 people who uses drugs in Africa seek treatment, as opposed to the world average scale of one in six;
- acknowledges that the use of drugs has become a challenge in our communities, breeding more social ills;
- notes that rehabilitation centres are mostly expensive for the poor to seek help from;
- therefore, the continuity of the addiction prevails; and
- acknowledges that dependency on illegal drugs has increased in the last 10 years; and
- encourages the Department of Social Development to derive a strategy to tackle these people by proactively assisting communities in distress.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the motion.
Ms R M M LESOMA: The ANC objects. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion falls away.
DA AND EFF BRING HOUSE INTO DISREPUTE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the NFP I move without notice:
That this House –
- notes that –
- the chaos between the DA and the EFF is gaining momentum in the House;
- realises that hon Mmusi Maimane has become the weakest leader of the DA;
- recognises that even Lindiwe Mazibuko who was declared by hon Premier Zille as being weak and who would not have been where she was without her, Helen Zille; and
- concludes that
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Deputy Speaker . . .
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you have to wait before you speak. I thought that I would allow the member to finish.
Mr M S MBATHA: I rise on a point of order that the hon member is casting aspersions on the member and he himself is a branch chairperson in Cape Town, and we have never said anything about that.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: So, what is the point of order about that?
Mr M S MBATHA: That’s the point of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order that the member who has just moved that motion is impugning the dignity of another member of this House and ask that he be asked to withdraw that statement.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, I said and I repeat:
- realises that hon Mmusi Maimane has become the weakest leader of the DA;
- recognises that even Lindiwe Mazibuko who was declared by hon Premier Zille as being weak and who could not have been where she was without her, Helen Zille;
- concludes, ...
hon Deputy Speaker. . . [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I rise on a point of order that you are now allowing the hon member to repeat in the House the very motion on which I’ve asked you to make a ruling, about casting aspersions on the dignity of a member of this House. I ask you to make a ruling rather than allowing him to repeat this transgression. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what’s the difference between a political comment and an improper comment on the dignity of a member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, Deputy Speaker. You made a ruling earlier regarding the conduct of the President.
Now, if I stood up and said that President Zuma is the weakest President this nation has ever had and he wouldn’t be in office if it wasn’t for Schabir Shaik and the Guptas, you would rule it out of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, do not be selective in your application of the Rules. Next hon member. [Interjections.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, I have not finished. [Interjections.] Let me withdraw that, hon Speaker. If that was offensive then I will withdraw that, hon Maimane. But let me complete my speech, hon Speaker.
Hon Deputy Speaker ...
the chaos created in the House between the DA and the EFF for the purposes of grandstanding and publicity is contributing to the degeneration of this House.
I so move. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, are there any objections? [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There are objections and the motion falls away.
SCHOOL CHILDREN CROSS RIVER FOR EDUCATION
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N P KHOZA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF to move without notice:
That the House –
- congratulates the school children of Engudwini in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, who swim across a dangerous river to acquire education while President Zuma has a swimming pool as a security upgrade.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We won’t put that to the House, hon member.
Hon members, we have made a ruling and you are consistently doing the same thing. When you next do it, it will be in contempt of the House.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order that this hon member seated next to me has come here and called me a twat. [Laughing.] And he says that I should be sitting on that side only because, hon Deputy Speaker, the DA wants you to tell this House what they want you to tell. So, when you disagree with them, that is what the point is. I would like you to ask him to withdraw those remarks and apologise. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member referred to, go to microphone. Withdraw those remarks.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, which remark was that?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you heard him. He said it next to you. You withdraw those remarks.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, if I said something objectionab–e - as the hon member said to my lead–r - then I withdraw it. [Interjections.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, that was not an unconditional withdrawal. [Interjections.] I want an unconditional withdrawal. The hon member knows exactly what he had said. So, tell him not to mince his words.
Mr S EMAM
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I address you, please? Please, may I address you, Deputy Speaker? [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, we are in a difficult situation here, because it’s a case of a he said-she said situation. [Interjections.] There is no Hansard for you to refer to. But, in addition, hon Mileham has withdrawn and I would ask you to accept it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, when it suits you, you want me to make an immediate ruling; when it suits you. Now, in this case, he has not objected to that. So, why do you raise what you are raising? Hon member, on your feet please, and withdraw unconditionally.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Chairperson, I will withdraw unconditionally...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No buts, please... Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
GRANDSTANDING OF NFP CONDEMNED
(Draft Resolution)
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Deputy Speaker, the EFF rises to move without notice:
That the House‑
- notes the grandstanding of the NFP and how it sucks up to the ANC at every given opportunity
with the hope that one of them shall be awarded another Deputy President post.
Ms M T KUBAYI: Point of order, Deputy Speaker. May I address you, Deputy Speaker? [Interjections.] Deputy Speaker, I would like you to use the Rules in terms of the powers that you have as the presiding officer. We have been subjected to a number of things that are happening here, and I think our tolerance levels have really been pushed too far. [Interjections.]
Secondly, I would like us to have a decision. We can’t continue to have an unlimited number of these motions. The Rules ... [Interjections.] Please ask for a decision of the House. We ourselves can decide. We can’t be told by a minority to sit here and listen to their frivolous statements! [Interjections.]
We request a decision by the House on whether we should proceed with these motions because, really, it is unbecoming. They are not intending to do anything. They are standing, writing on small pieces of paper, responding to each other, and it is not in the best interest of South Africans. It is not in the best interest of us sitting here. We are demeaning ourselves and I think we have stopped being honourable members.
I request that you make a decision, Deputy Speaker, on whether what is happening here today in the House is really defining us as members of the House, being honourable members. Secondly, ask the House as well to take a decision on whether they want to continue in the manner which we are doing presently.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order. [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, nothing that this side of the House has done today is ultra vires of the Rules, unlike the stunt that was tried earlier. I will submit to you that it will be out of order for this House to take such a decision because, essentially, it will impugn and impede the opposition’s ability to do what they are entitled to in terms of the Rules. [Interjections.]
I would submit that the hon member should go and look up the words ‘democracy’ and ‘parliamentary democracy’ to have an understanding about it. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to read to you from a report of the Rules Committee submitted to this House by the Speak–r - about the Rules and their guidelines that were adopted by the Whips.
Rule 5 of that report says that to facilitate the unanimous concurrence required, members or parties must submit to procedural staff before noon on that particular sitting day, all motions they intend to move without notice. Rule 7 says motions that have not been submitted for circulation may not be read in the House.
Now, hon members, if this is what you agreed to, I think that you have long crossed the boundary of reasonableness. In fact, it is not even about reasonableness; it is acting outside of the Rules. I think that what you introduced in our practices is that you created a situation in which these Rules do not matter anymore.
I suggest that hon member the Chief Whip, I don’t expect that of you really, especially because you insist on us following these Rules. On the basis of that, I suggest that because these have not been circulated, we have allowed those that were done literally on the hoof and we can’t do that any more. For that reason we now move to member’s statements.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
PRESIDENT LAUNCHES RURAL DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS AT MSINGA
(Member’s Statement)
Ms P BHENGU (ANC): On 8 November 2014, the President of the country, Mr J G Zuma, was at uMsinga in KwaZulu-Natal to launch three rural development projects, including the sod turning of the bridge. This bridge is to connect the Mashunka and Ngubo communities. It will assist these communities in accessing mostly education and health facilities.
It will also help in improving local businesses. It will be easier for these communities to transport their products such as fruits and vegetables to nearby towns, and that will increase their market. The communities will also save a lot on public transport since that bridge will shorten the route they have to travel between the mentioned areas.
The President also refurbished a 100-year old irrigation scheme system and an animal sale yard. The ANC continues to change the lives of people for the better.
IsiZulu:
... nokuthi nalaba abathi balinde ukubusa bayohlala belindile kuyoze kubuye uJesu. [Uhleko.] [Ihlombe.]
Mr G KRUMBROCK
Ms P BHENGU
FAILED STATE OF MPOFANA MUNICIPALITY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr G R KRUMBROCK (DA): The Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs would like this House to believe that local government is not as bad as we all know it is. Let me tell him about the failed state that is Mpofana Municipality.
A spectacularly unsuccessfouncilorlor was appointed mayor in 2011. In no time, massive electricity increases, totally unapproved by the National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, caused local businesses to close their doors – more unemployment, less investment, no hope. Service delivery protests soon led to open violence and three deat–s - after the mayors of uMngeni and Mpofana and the brother of the previous mayor vetted applicants for the Spring Grove Dam project, ensuring that only the party faithful were employed. The Bruntville Housing Project ended up supplying houses not just to the poor, but all too often to the politically well connected, judging by their luxury cars parked outside.
The local Mpofana Municipal Public Accounts Committee, Mpac, said nothing, but then again, every member of Mpac in Mpofana is an ANC member. Eventually, after economic collapse, nepotism, corruption and infighting, the MEC dissolved the entire council, brought to its knees by the ANC. Is this a good story to tell? Yet the ANC has learned nothing.
Just the day before he was killed, lone Mpofana DA Ken Denysschen, wrote to the municipal manager after identifying municipal employees openly campaigning in ANC t-shirts during working hours in Bruntville. Nothing has changed. The Witness editorial comment ...[Inaudible.] [Time expired.]
Mr N P KHOZA
Mr G KRUMBROCK
REPORTS OF MISUSE OF FUNDS IN EASTERN CAPE FOR 2013-14 FINANCIAL YEAR
(Member’s Statement)
Mr N P KHOZA (EFF): The latest media reports that the Eastern Cape spent almost half a billion rand in the 2013-14 financial year on travel and accommodation is indeed disturbing, and spits in the face of the poor people of that province.
The Eastern Cape province is one of the poorest provinces in the country and yet public funds are misused in this manner. We also know that the Eastern Cape province is characterized by a whole range of challenges, including lack of infrastructure like schools, hospitals, roads, etc. There is an estimated 500 mud schools in the province and a huge infrastructure backlog.
This is the province which had to be taken to court to pay teachers, and yet public funds are being grossly abused and misused by officials. It is reported that the province’s travel amount is nearly a quarter of the money spent by all nine provinces.
The Eastern Cape case is a reflection of the character of the ANC government. Misuse of public funds is rampant and is indeed the order of the day.
IsiZulu:
Hawu madoda! Lafa elihle kakhulu!
Ms MAKHUBELA-MASHELE
Mr N P KHOZA
ENVISAGED TOURISM CURRICULUM REVIEW
(Member’s Statement)
Ms MAKHUBELA-MASHELE (ANC): Different countries in the world, including South Africa, have long realised the value of tourism as a labour-intensive industry, and thus enacted legislation and developed policies to harness its immense potential in contributing to the gross domestic product and job creation.
However, there has always been a disjuncture in the teaching of tourism at tertiary institutions as a discipline on its own. Many universities, except a few, enroll tourism students under the field of geography, thus shifting the focus from tourism as an economic subject and only paid more attention to the spatial aspects of the discipline.
Consequently, there has been a mismatch in the skills acumen of Tourism graduates in relation to the job market. Therefore, the private sector has been compelled to reskill tourism graduates to make them relevant to the field of work. This resulted in the tourism sector relying more on our neighbouring countries to fill the skills gap in the industry.
The envisaged Tourism curriculum review is thus awaited with eager anticipation to ensure that the youth benefit optimally from tourism. Appropriate training of youth in tourism will also ensure that the tourism sector contributes substantially to the 11 million jobs anticipated in the National Development Plan. [Time expired.]
Mr N SINGH
Ms MAKHUBELA-MASHELE
POOR MANAGEMENT AT SAA
(Member’s Statement)
Mr N SINGH (IFP): Chairperson, every South African, including us in this House, should be proud of the fact that we boast our own national airline carrier.
Sadly, however, this is not the case for many South Africans. We cannot wallow in pride. The poor state of management and the continuous need for government bailouts at SA Airways, SAA, leaves us greatly disillusioned about the ability of state-owned enterprises to manage such strategic assets.
SAA should be flying high but now appears to be coming in for yet another crash landing. Board members of the airline have been removed and the chief executive, Monwabisi Kalawe, has either been suspended or put on so-called special leave, again with no reasons given, and the airline continues to flounder. The Minister of Public Enterprises seems helpless to effect any positive change at the airline. Is this because there are other higher authoritative forces at play at SAA – forces that reward loyalty above skill and competency?
An urgent investigation into what is going on is required, even if it means setting up a judicial commission of inquiry. We would like to see this failing airline turned around, managed competently and reinstalled as the premier airline carrier in South Africa. We hope this government shares our vision. I thank you.
Dr C P MULDER
Mr N SINGH
INCREASE IN COMPLAINTS OF RAPE AGAINST POLICE OFFICERS
(Member’s Statement)
Afrikaans:
Dr C P MULDER (VF Plus): Geagte Voorsitter, wanneer iemand in moeilikheid kom of ’n probleem het, is dit natuurlik om die polisie te skakel om jou te kom help of by te staan.
Maar, dit kan nie meer gedoen word nie want volgens die Onafhanklike Polisie-ondersoekdirektoraat, het die aantal klagtes van verkragtings wat deur polisielede gepleeg is – in ses maande van April tot September 2014 teenoor dieselfde tydperk in 2013 – met 25% toegeneem, terwyl verkragtings van persone in aanhouding met 160% toegeneem het. Die Onafhanklike Polisie-ondersoekdirektoraat het hierdie statistieke in ’n voorlegging aan die portefeuljekomitee van die Parlement bekendgemaak.
Wat meer kommerwekkend is, is dat die aantal verkragtings deur polisielede wat op diens was – terwyl hulle in diens van die polisie was – met 56% toegeneem het. In die geval van mense wat in polisie aanhouding is en wie deur polisielede – wie op diens was – verkrag was, was die toename 350%. Dit beteken dat hierdie verkragters dink hulle is verhewe bo die reg bloot omdat hulle polisielede is. Hulle misbruik die gesag wat aan hulle toegeken word. Geen wonder dat die polisie geen vertroue meer geniet nie.
Mr D KEKANA
Dr C P MULDER
SOUTH AFRICAN STUDENTS RECEIVE SCHOLARSHIPS TO STUDY IN RUSSIAN FEDERATION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr C D KEKANA (ANC): The South African government has in last two years received scholarships from the Russian Federation for students in South Africa to study in Russia. In September, 13 students left for the Russian Federation to join the 15 students who are already studying in Russia. Their specialities include: Nuclear Physics, Medical Biochemistry, Medicine and Surgery, Pharmacy, Applied Mathematics, Technology, Applied Informatics and Chemical Technology.
We thank the Russian Federation for its contribution to grow our economy and for the contribution they made in our liberation struggle. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T GODI
Mr D KEKANA
MUNICIPAL BUILDING BURNED IN THABA CHWEU MUNICIPALITY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr N T GODI (APC): Chairperson, the APC is concerned and condemns the reported burning of a municipal building in the municipality of Thaba Chweu in Mpumalanga. In itself, the destruction of any public property is of concern and must be condemned.
What is worrying in the circumstances of this particular case is the fact that the police have so far pointed a finger of accusation at the employees of the municipality. This happened shortly after a visit by the Public Protector in her investigation of complaints about service delivery and maladministration in that municipality.
This municipality has continuously been in the news for all the wrong reasons. A point does need to be made, which is a call on the police to leave no stone unturned in investigating this matter. We hope that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, with its programme of Back to Basics, will instill the necessary work ethic to ensure that civil servants do their work as expected.
We call on public servants in that municipality and in all local governments to shun corruption and maladministration, and to work tirelessly in the best interests of the people, now and always. Thank you.
Ms B L ABRAHAMS
Mr T GODI
PROVISION OF WATER TO GIYANI COMMUNITY
(Member’s Statement)
Ms B L ABRAHAMS (ANC): We, the people of this amazing country, would like to extend our greatest gratitude to the ANC for our policies and programmes which saw the handing over of phase two Nsami Water Works to the community of Giyani on 30 October 2014.
Giyani has been experiencing water shortages since the dawn of democracy. This water scheme will increase the capacity of Nsami’s purification plant from 18 megalitres to 36 megalitres per day and will cover 93 villages in Giyani.
This additional capacity will go a long way towards alleviating the water shortages in those communities and improve their lives. This is indeed a commitment which the ANC made during the election campaign to move South Africa forward. The community of Giyani is highly delighted with this development which has addressed this historical problem of water.
We urge the department to continue doing the good work for the people of Giyani and to continue doing the good work for the people of South Africa, and to make their lives better. This is indeed a good story to tell. Ngiyabonga. [Applause.]
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS
Ms B L ABRAHAMS (ANC)
MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS
APPLICATION TO BLOCK OCCUPATION OF MUNICIPAL LAND IN NELLMAPIUS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS (DA): Hon Chairperson, the Tshwane Metro Police today made an urgent application in the High Court in Pretoria to block the occupation of municipal land in Nellmapius, east of Pretoria.
Large groups of people converged in Nellmapius on Wednesday, demanding that they be given free land to build their houses, and when violence erupted, the police fired rubber bullets to disperse the crowds. The residents retaliated by throwing stones at the metro police.
With the vocal support of the local EFF branch - Malemaville, as it has become commonly known - it has become a test case for the implementation and roll-out of EFF policies and practices, chaos, violence, and the breakdown of the rule of law and the Constitution. [Interjections.]
Moreover, this is a golden opportunity for Minister Sisulu to demonstrate that the Lwandle Ministerial Board of Inquiry was not merely a R4 million public-funded political hit squad with marching orders to assassinate the character, reputation and good work of the DA-led City of Cape Town and Western Cape Provincial Government.
Unfortunately, instead of rushing to announce the inquiry into Malemaville or gazette any terms of reference, the Minister is in the House today to push through the Nkandla whitewash. The President’s private home is clearly more important than the home for people of Nellmapius. Why is the plight of the people of Nellmapius being ignored by the Minister? Is it because her ANC friends run the City of Tshwane or is it because the people of Nellmapius are 1 500 kilometers away from the DA-led City of Cape Town? Your move, Minister.
Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE (ANC)
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS (DA)
DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN AND GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE (ANC): Hon Chairperson, it cannot and can never be acceptable to camouflage chauvinism and discrimination against women under the guise of questioning competency in an area of political manipulation for cheap political-point scoring.
Forward with the women of South Africa and down with women followers in parties with oppressive policies that do not empower women such as the DA, the EFF and the rest! [Interjections.]
As we approach the launch of the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence, we recall the ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat. Yes, Chief Whip of the Opposition?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, what the hon member is saying is misleading the House. The DA does not have oppressive policies. [Interjections.] In fact, our leader is a woman, unlike her organisation. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I will come back to you on that one. You can continue, hon member.
Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE (ANC): Hon House Chairperson, as we approach the launch of the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence campaign, we recall the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women which stipulates that governments should ...
develop penal, civil, labour and administrative sanctions in domestic legislation to punish and redress the wrongs caused to women who are subjected to violence; women who are subjected to violence should be provided with access to the mechanisms of justice and, as provided for by national legislation, to just and effective remedies for the harm that they have suffered; States should also inform women of their rights in seeking redress through such mechanisms ...
The 2004 SA Report on Violence against Women indicated significant progress made in amendment of existing legislation and the promulgation of new legislation relating to violence against women and children in South Africa.
Are we winning the battle against gender-based violence? Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M A PLOUAMMA (AGANG)
Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE (ANC)
POLITICAL DECAY AND MORAL BANKRUPTCY IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M A PLOUAMMA (AGANG): Hon House Chair, the future of this country is hanging in the balance. Political decay and moral bankruptcy has become the order of the day. Survival through political connections has become the order of the day. Talents and hard work are no longer necessary to succeed. You must be corrupt, dishonest and have friends in higher places in order to succeed.
Indeed, this reduces our democratic dispensation and our government to a tool of those in power to enrich themselves. The spirit of selflessness and sacrifice has been replaced by hypocrisy, dark souls, selfish interests, manipulation and total blindness to the suffering of the poor.
Agang believes that we must change the leadership immediately so that the masses mustn’t rise and make this country ungovernable. [Applause.]
Ms M R M MOTHAPO (ANC)
Mr M A PLOUAMMA (AGANG)
TŠA MAPHELO E TLA DULA E LE TOKELO YA BOTHO YA MOTHEO AFRIKA-BORWA
(Pego ya Leloko)
Sepedi:
Moh M R M MOTHAPO(ANC):Mohl, tša maphelo mo Afrika-Borwa di thoma go tlhokomelo ya maphelo ya motheo yeo e tlwaelegilego yeo e tšwago go mmušo ya mahala go ya go ditirelo tša maphelo tšeo di ikgathilego, tša maemo a godimo go makala a mabedi, e lego la setšhaba le la praebete.
Tša maphelo e dula e le tokelo ya botho ye bohlokwa mo Afrika-Borwa, a taba tše dibotse baetena! [Tšhwahlelo.] Ditsebi di dula di le komanamadulaabapile mellwaneng ka moka ya go tsena ka mo nageng gore ba kgone go lekola twatši ye ya Ebola. Bahlankedi bao ba ka bago 270 mellwaneng ka moka ya go tsena ka mo nageng ye senyane yeo e lego kotsi ye kgolo kudu ba ile ba hlahlwa gore ba kgone go šomana le bolwetši bjo ge bo ka re wela.[Interjections.]
Mola bolwetši bja Ebola bo wago kua seleteng sa bodikela bja Afrika ka Matšhe, bo bolaile batho bao ba ka bago 5 000 go fihla lehono. Sehlongwa sa Bosetšhaba sa Malwetši a go Fetela(National Institute for Communicable Diseases) se laeditše gore go etelana kudu le dinaga tša borwa le bodikela bja Afrika go dira gore go be le dikgonagalo tša gore Ebola e we mo Afrika-Borwa. Eupša le ge go le bjalo, dikgonagalo tšeo di sale tše nnyane.
Afrika-Borwa e bona Inšuransi ya Bosetšhaba ya Maphelo (National Health Insurance) bjalo ka maitekelo a go kaonafatša mokgwa wo wa go thuša ka mašeleng a tša maphelo le go tliša mokgwa wa tša maphelo wa boleng bja maleba ka malapeng a MaAfrika-Borwa ka moka gomme seo e le go neela MaAfrika-Borwa bophelo bjo bokaone. Taba tše di bose naa! Re a leboga. [Tšhwahlelo.] [Legoswi.]
Mr T Z HADEBE
Ms M R M MOTHAPO
WATER SHORTAGE IN EWELA COMMUNITIES IN ULUNDI WARD 8, KWAZULU-NATAL
(Member’s Statement)
Mr T Z HADEBE (DA): The Constitution of South Africa compels local spheres of government to supply clean water to every person.
The community of Ulundi Ward 8, in Ewela at Chibini Village has been crying to local authorities to get water provision for the past 14 years without any success. These poor communities, including the elderly seek - not to mention the children who should be concentrating on education and studies - are forced by the situation to try to find water in the dirty streams and rivers in order to be able to survive.
After 14 years of desperate attempts by the community, the only thing the municipality is able to provide is a small water tank to last the whole month. This water doesn’t even last one day and the remaining days of the month the community battles to find water. It is really sad that the community now relies on calls direct to elected councils to supply water and render essential services to residents when they were elected to do just that. The classic example is the court order compelling Mookgophong Local Municipality to supply water to its community.
The community of Ewela feels betrayed by the ANC and NFP-led municipalities. The DA calls on the Minister of Water and Sanitation to urgently intervene to restore the dignity of the Ewela community in Ulundi in Ward 8. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L K B MPUMLWANA
Mr T Z HADEBE
CONDUCT OF MPs AND NEED TO RESPECT ROLE AS MPs AND DEMOCRACY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr L K B MPUMLWANA (ANC): Respect in the name of rights and freedom must be properly understood. All human rights are indivisible, whether they are civil or political rights, such as the right to life, equality before the law, freedom of expression, economic, social and cultural rights, such as the rights to work, social security, education and collective rights, such as the rights to development and self-determination. They are independent, interrelated and interdependent.
If, however, we are to be respected as leaders and respectable people, we need to first respect ourselves and our democracy. I hope what has happened today will never happen again. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, that concludes Members’ Statements.
Hon Steenhuisen, I noted the point of order you raised on the statement that was made by the hon member. However it was not an inference on an individual; it was more in the context of the political party’s policies. And, therefore, I rule that it wasn’t necessarily a point of order. I’m sure when you have an opportunity to debate you will be able to debate with the hon member concerned.
Are there any Ministerial Responses?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
SOUTH AFRICAN STUDENTS RECEIVE SCHOLARSHIPS TO STUDY IN RUSSIAN FEDERATION
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION: Thank you very much, hon Chair.
IsiZulu:
Siyabonga Mhlonishwa Kekana, siyababongisa nabafundi abahambile baya e-Russia bayofunda.
English:
We remain committed, hon Chair, to send students abroad to acquire skills that we are not producing as a country. I must also say that the government of the Russian Federation has further committed 50 scholarships for the 2015 academic year for South African students.
As the Department of Higher Education and Training, we appreciate these scholarships and truly value the opportunities accorded to our young people to help them broaden their knowledge and skills, which will enable them to come back and contribute positively to the economy of the country. Thank you very much.
MOTLATSI WA LETONA LA SEPOLESA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION
Sesotho:
ANC E TSHEHETSA MOIFO WA BOLAODI BO IKEMETSENG WA SEPOLESA SA DIPATLISISO, IPID, KGAHLANO LE BOBODU LE PETO
(Karabo ya Letona)
MOTLATSI WA LETONA LA SEPOLESA: Ke a leboha Motlatsi wa Modula Setulo, ke rata hore ho leloko le hlomphehileng le neng le bua ka bobodu, le peto e etsahalang diteisheneng tsa mapolesa ebile e etswa ke mapolesa; le karolo e etswang ke Moifo wa Bolaodi bo Ikemetseng wa Sepolesa sa Dipatlisiso, [Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID.]
Rona re le mmuso wa ANC, re ile ra ba le bonnete ba hore bobodu kapa yona peto, hohle moo e etsahalang teng, ha re kgathale hore e etswa ke mang na, re tla emisa mokgatlo ona oo re o bitsang ka hore ke IPID, ho sebetsana le yona. Ho keke ha tshwana le mokgatlo wa pele oo ona o neng o tshwarehile, o bitswa Vlakplaas. Mapolesa a bona a ne a sa shebe ka nako eo hore batho ba betwang ba bakae. Ke a leboha.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
MOTLATSI WA LETONA LA SEPOLESA
PROVISION OF WATER TO GIYANI COMMUNITY
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you very much, Chair.
I take this opportunity to welcome the comments made on Giyani. However, I want to further indicate that, within the next few months, we will be working in partnership with the government of Zimbabwe to make other interventions that are going to provide water relief for Polokwane, Sekhukhune and other surroundings in Limpopo. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
CONDUCT OF MPs AND NEED TO RESPECT ROLE AS MPs AND DEMOCRACY
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chair.
In response to the last statement made by the hon member of the ANC, hon Mpumlwana, I would like to acknowledge and support his observation that we are a beautiful democracy in South Africa. We have a beautiful Bill of Rights, thanks to our leaders who demonstrated the best leadership, and led us to a peaceful transition from apartheid to the kind of democracy where there is free expression and free association as well as all the rights in the Bill of Rights.
However, I further agree with you that for full and meaningful enjoyment of these rights, we have to observe the rule of law. Indeed, what has been demonstrated today, as on many other days in this House, is far from what our Constitution and Bill of Rights envisaged - a society that has tolerance, free debate, free engagement and meaningful engagement - and not the kind of anarchy which some of the opposition parties demonstrated today. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
FIRST ORDER
FIRST ORDER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON REPORT BY THE PRESIDENT REGARDING SECURITY UPGRADES AT NKANDLA, PRIVATE RESIDENCE OF THE PRESIDENT
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon House Chairperson, hon Deputy President, members of the executive and hon members, the ad hoc committee to consider the report by the President regarding the security upgrades at his private residence was established through a resolution of the National Assembly on 19 August 2014.
The Assembly’s resolution that established the committee indicated that the committee was to consider the report by the President dated 14 August 2014; make recommendations where possible and exercise those powers, as set out in Rule 138 of the Rules of the National Assembly, that are necessary to carry out its task.
A number of letters of correspondence were also referred to the committee by the hon Speaker: a letter dated 12 August 2014 from the Public Protector to the President; a letter dated 11 September 2014, from the President to the Public Protector in response to her letter of 21 August 2014, and a letter dated 15 September 2015 from the Public Protector to the President.
The Special Chief Whips’ Forum that was convened and referred to on page 2950 of the report took place on 4 September 2014 to discuss differences of opinion between the different political parties on the committee in terms of its mandate.
An agreement was reached that all the reports and correspondence pertaining to this matter would be referred to the committee and serve as the source documents in front of it. This includes: The Interministerial Security Cluster Task Team report; the report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence on the interministerial report; the Public Protector’s report entitled ‘Secure in Comfort’ as well as the Special Investigating Unit’s final report.
After a delay of two weeks from the time that the committee was supposed to start its work due to the differences on its mandate, the committee was finally constituted where all political parties attended and elected a chairperson on 9 September 2014.
On 23 October 2014 the Assembly, by resolution, extended the deadline for the ad hoc committee to report on 14 November 2014.
The committee subsequently had eight meetings here in Parliament to deliberate on the reports in a transparent and open manner. Meetings were very well attended by members of the public, including civil society and members of the media who followed proceedings with immense interest.
In the meeting that took place on 26 September 2014, members of the committee could not reach agreement on the methodology to follow in performing its mandated task. The key points of deliberation were whether the findings, recommendations and remedial actions in the report of the Public Protector were binding and enforceable on other organs of state, and if any person or persons should be invited to present their reports before the committee or to provide oral evidence.
The committee could not reach consensus on the issue of the methodology to be followed. At this point, members of the opposition parties withdrew their participation and the committee continued its work in line with Assembly Rule 133.
The committee then, assisted by the technical staff from Parliament, made a thorough assessment of the commonalities and differences in the findings and recommendations of the different reports that served before the committee. In focusing on this issue, the committee also considered the constitutional role of the President, the executive, accounting officers and officials of the respective departments.
All the reports from the different institutions that served before the committee are of the highest integrity and quality and contain detailed information, sufficient to have enabled the ad hoc committee to arrive at its own conclusions and recommendations without reviewing any of those reports. There was agreement across the different reports of noncompliance with the legislative framework, supply chain management regulations, Treasury regulations as well as unnecessary cost escalations.
The reports of the Inter-Ministerial Task Team, the Public Protector and the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, indicated that costing escalations inflated the project costs in a irregular manner to above R216 million.
Having read and perused the investigative reports, there was agreement in the initial meetings of the committee between all the parties who were present that the value of the existing structures and the work that was performed had been grossly inflated and not worth the amount of money that was spent on it.
The committee also noted that when the Public Protector submitted its report to the National Assembly in 2004, the National Assembly also established an ad hoc committee to deal with the matters.
The committee noted that in processing its work, the ad hoc committee also did not call witnesses to give evidence, but instead considered the contents of the report before it. This was also the case with two other reports of previous Public Protectors. The committee therefore applied the principle of precedence and decided to focus on the content of the investigative reports that served as source documents before it, rather than initiating its own in-depth investigation into the matter.
During its deliberations, the ad hoc committee observed the outcome of the High Court of South Africa in the matter between the DA and the SA Broadcasting Corporation and that it was of relevance to the matter that it was mandated to consider.
The judgment of that court stressed the importance of the Office of the Public Protector, and also provided clarity with regards to the findings and remedial actions of the Office of the Public Protector. It stated and I quote: ``Powers and functions of the Public Protector are not adjudicative’’ and that ``A finding of the Public Protector is not binding on persons and organs of state.’’ But, also, that it can simply not be ignored.
The committee observed that the legal framework that was relevant in the matter before it consisted of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, the Ministerial Handbook, and the Cabinet Policy of 2003. The Cabinet Memorandum of 2003 prescribes the steps to be followed in projects of this nature.
The PFMA further makes a clear distinction between the function of the political head as well as the accounting officer. The PFMA also states clearly that accounting officers face strict disciplinary sanctions, including dismissal, where they do not adhere to the prescripts of the PFMA. Other members who were part of the deliberations will reflect on some of the issues.
In terms of the findings, I wish to highlight that questions were raised in terms of the legislation and regulations that guided the security upgrade of the project.
The President in his report to the Speaker states in paragraph 25, and I quote:
In 2009 I was appointed as President of the Republic. Immediately upon my inauguration, members of the security cluster engaged with me regarding security upgrades and requirements at my homestead which are commensurate with a Head of State of the Republic.
The Public Protector also further comments that there is usually a normative process involved when these types of security upgrades are initiated. The committee thus found the project to secure the President’s private residence was correctly initiated.
The President also indicates in the same letter in paragraph 32 that:
From time to time I received briefings both formally and informally from the various Ministers engaged with the security enhancements.
Whilst the President may not have requested the security upgrades, it is certain that he became aware of them.
The Cabinet Memorandum of 2003 is the appropriate policy document that should
have guided the process. The National Key Points Act of 1980 is not applicable in this instance. Neither the National Key Points Act nor the Cabinet Memorandum requires the residence to be declared a National Key Point before security upgrades can be effected. The residence was declared a National Key Point after the project started and was erroneously introduced. [Interjections.]
It also seems that there was a lack of oversight by certain members of the executive authority who were to ensure the proper departmental co-ordination and implementation in compliance with the Cabinet Memorandum. From the source documents, it appears as if regular security assessments, as stated in this memorandum, were not performed by the SA Police Service.
The committee further found that the private professional team was appointed in an irregular manner and the ceding by the DPW officials of their responsibilities to Makhanya and R&G Consultants allowed for ‘scope creep’, as the Public Protector termed it, and massive irregularities that saw costs soar to in excess of R216 million.
There was gross negligence on the part of the senior officials of the department and those who have acted outside the legal and regulatory financial
framework exposed themselves to the consequences of the PFMA.
It appears from the Public Protector’s report that the former Minister and Deputy Minister of Public Works were at some stages involved in the implementation of the project. With regard to efforts of the President to investigate allegations of maladministration and wastage, the committee found that on 5 October, the Minister of Public Works announced that an investigation into the allegations would take place by a specially convened security cluster task team.
This task team would, in all likelihood, have been appointed after consultation with the President. It is inconceivable that a task team of this nature would have been appointed without the President being aware of its appointment. The President also signed the Proclamation R 359 of 2013 for the SIU to investigate. And there were also different letters and responses.
The committee thus found that the suggestion that the President ignored and did not act cannot be substantiated. With regards to whether the President and his dependents benefited unduly as a result of the security upgrades, the committee finds that the Cabinet Memorandum of 2003 clearly outlines the steps that were supposed to be followed. All reports indicate that these steps were not followed.
Upon legal advice, we were advised that at this stage it would be premature for the committee to come to a conclusion of undue enrichment without the matter being attended to by the relevant security experts consistent with the Cabinet Memorandum.
The Public Protector cleared the President of all serious allegations, except that she found that there were and I quote: ``nonsecurity related items that were erected or built which the President and his family materially benefited from.’’
The issue of the violation of the code is tantamount to unconstitutional conduct by the President, and it is the respectful view of the committee that the Office of the Public Protector does not have the power to decide on constitutional matters.
The following recommendations are highlighted: That the President must ensure the implementation of the measures, as outlined in his final report to the Speaker; within the next three months the report is to be expected.
The President should consider whether any members of the executive authority failed to implement the provisions of the Cabinet Memorandum of 2003, either through complacency or negligence in the execution of their duties, and, if necessary, take appropriate action.
The President should also note the instances where the executive authorities, especially the former Minister and Deputy Minister of Public Works, did not act according to the prescripts of the PFMA, and, if necessary, take appropriate action. [Interjections.]
The committee also found that the SIU should continue to recover the cost of inflation to the amount of R155 million.
The committee also recommends that the matter of what constitutes security and nonsecurity upgrades at the residence be referred back to Cabinet for determination by the relevant security experts in line with the Cabinet Memorandum of 2003, and must report back to Cabinet and Parliament within three months.
Finally, a technical team of qualified security experts should assess the serious concerns raised about the current situation at the President’s private residence as raised in the SIU report, evaluate those concerns and report back to Cabinet and Parliament within three months.
Hon Speaker, I submit this report to the House for consideration. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M A MAIMANE
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, Deputy President and members of this House ... Bagaetsho dumelang [greetings.] Today we stand at the crossroads on a journey towards accountability and constitutional government. The actions of this Parliament over the coming months will determine whether our democratic project has succeeded or whether we have lapsed into a state captured by the ANC.
The adoption of the report by the ad hoc committee – or the ANC study group – on Nkandla is a travesty of parliamentary oversight. Our President has forsaken his constitutional duty and the ANC report has rubberstamped his sins. Today the opposition stands together, united in our rejection of this report and its collection of denials ... [Applause.] ... half-truths and fallacies.
Hon members, today is a tale of two stories or narratives. There is an ANC story that is set out in the report of the ad hoc committee. It’s a narrative that describes how the costs of legitimate security upgrades to the President’s residence escalated due to maladministration by public officials and the principal agent of the project, Mr Minenhle Makhanya.
This narrative makes no distinction between security and nonsecurity upgrades, and it views the escalation of the costs as an unremarkable systems failure. More importantly, in this narrative, the President neither requested the upgrades, nor had any knowledge of their extent. He was merely an unassuming, hapless recipient of a generous gift from the people of South Africa. Shame! The President was an unwilling victim who arrived home to discover ... ao, bathing [in wonder] ... that his pool had been extended and that there are lavish expenses at no cost to himself. He did not even question this generosity, but he felt he was obliged to accept it, with no questions asked. In fact, it was very clear to every South African why this assertion is absolute nonsense. [Interjections.]
However, there is a second narrative. The second narrative is characterised by a President who willfully misused the power of his office to benefit himself. In this narrative, President Zuma, together with his architect, Mr Makhanya, orchestrated a grand deception to expand the scope of the project while minimising his personal liability. And so, a swimming pool, cattle kraal, amphitheatre, tuck shop and visitor’s centre were added to the list of security upgrades and the cost thereof is absorbed by the people of this country. There is absolutely no justification for public funds being diverted so that the President’s cattle can have a better life than the people of South Africa! [Interjections.]
A o re ke bue mo [let me tell you], I have been to Protea South. The people of Protea South will tell you they live on dolomitic land where they can’t build but, instead, Public Works decided to take money from the people of Protea South to build the President a palace while they don’t even have houses. It’s an absolute travesty! President Jacob Zuma is the only one who has a good story to tell in this story and, in fact, this is the real crime. The President’s unwillingness to accept liability for this undue benefit where he received costly upgrades to his home are what lies at the heart of this matter.
Yet, the members of the ANC committee felt it was fine. Let the truth remain blind because we are here to protect one person and one person alone ... Number One. I wish to state right here that the objective of the Nkandla ad hoc committee, as led by the ANC, was to exonerate the President. We as the opposition parties stand together and hold up this report, signed by seven parties, not Luthuli House, that simply says we reject the findings in this report. [Applause.]
Let me tell you why we reject it. We reject it because ... in fact, it was an exercise to absolve the President of all responsibilities. Hon members, I am here to ask you that if this particular Parliament can‘t be seen by the people of this country to legitimately deal with the grave issue of Nkandla, what can it ever legitimately deal with? [Interjections.]
By virtue of his position, Number One must be held to the highest standard. As the highest office bearer in this land, the President took an oath to uphold and maintain the Constitution. He stood at the Union Buildings with his hand on the Bible, saying he was going to protect and defend the Constitution. Instead, he has allowed a gang of supporters in the National Assembly to cheer him on as he flouts it at every turn and selectively applies the Constitution. The condescending and dismissive way in which President Zuma ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, the hon member is not allowed to call us a ``gang of supporters’’. He knows that and he must withdraw it. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Can you withdraw that, hon Maimane?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Oh, it’s not a gang; it’s supporters. I apologise.
The condescending and dismissive way in which President Zuma has dealt with queries surrounding Nkandla is unbecoming of the Office of the President. The President has been party to a deception on the grandest scale. Public money was stolen at Nkandla and now the President cowers in shame, hiding behind the ANC’s numbers in Parliament. It was money that was destined for inner-city rejuvenation, dolomite housing alleviation and job creation. Most abhorrently, it was money stolen from the poor people of this country ... [Applause.] ... who struggle every day to get ahead.
This is nothing short of an impeachable offence. [Interjections.] President Zuma must account! It’s not our request; it’s his constitutional imperative. Should the President fail to heed this call, we will be left with no choice but to move for his removal from office. He must lead by example; he must either comply with the Public Protector or we must move to have him impeached.
Ladies and gentleman, I call on you to protect the poor people of this country and hold President Zuma to account. I thank you very much. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Ms M S KHAWULA
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Umbuzo wami nje la ubheke ngqo kuMomgameli ikakhulukazi thina njengoba siphuma le ekhaya KwaZulu-Natali. Ake ungitshele ngempela hlazo lini leli osenzela lona KwaZulu-Natali? Ngabe uyabona yini ukuthi uphoxa amakhosi akwaZulu-Natali kanye neNgonyama uqobo ehola amaZulu wonke.
Le nto yokuthi kungafika umuntu emzini wakho, ambe iziza, akhe akhiphe wonke amangwevu emzini wakho - awazilutho nje wena. NgesiZulu ubugebengu bonke lobo uma uthi awazi lutho. [Ubuwelewele.]
Ngempela wena awazi lutho uqobo ukuthi awukho umthetho kwaZulu–Natali. Engani noma kushoniwe akufiki abantu bezokumba igodi bagcwabe umuntu, babuza kumuntu oyikhanda lomuzi. [Ubuwelewele.] Kungani Mongameli wakithi kwaZulu-Natali ophethe iNingizimu Afrika yonke usiphoxa na? Impela sasikuthembile sasicabanga ukuthi uzosikhumbula. Besicela ukuthi ...
English:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: On a point of order, the hon member has a right to say anything and everything she likes, but not call the President a criminal. [Interjections.] He has not been proven by any court of law as a criminal. [Interjections.] She must withdraw.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Mam’ uKhawula mandiqale apha, ndicela xa kuthetha omnye umntu uhlale phantsi.
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga.
USOMLOMO: Manje uSoswebhu Omkhulu ukhala ngokuthi uthe uMongameli uyisigebengu. Ngicela-ke mama ukuhoxise uma ngabe ukushilo.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ukuthi mangibheka uSoswebhu lo mhlawumbe akezwanga kahle. Ngithe mina kwaZulu uma uthi awuyazi into kade yenzeke kwakho, leyo nto iyaye ithatheke ngobugebengu angishongo ukuthi uMongameli yisigebengu. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: On a point of order, hon Speaker.
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Ukuphamuka kwenkulumo kwani?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Musa ukuzodlala ngolimi, lungu elihloniphekile, ubiza uMongameli ngesigebengu.
English:
The SPEAKER: Hon members!
Mr M S MBATHA: What is your point of order?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Inkulumo ephambukile ukuthi ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, take your seats.
Mnu M S MBATHA: Angasebenzisi isiZulu esingekho lapha.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Inkulumo ephambukile, uthi uMongameli, umuntu othi akazi ukuthi kwenzakalani emzini wakhe ngubugebengu lobo. [Ubuwelewele.] Ubiza uMongameli ngesigebengu. [Ubuwelewele.] Lokho akukona nje ukuthi - into engifuna ukuyisho - akuhambisani nomthetho wePhalamende; iwuchuku futhi le nto ayishoyo. ...
Ms H O MAXON: On a point of order, Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, hon members, please take your seats! Let me finish on this particular issue.
IsiZulu:
Mama ngicela uthi: Hhayi uma bedidekile ngendlela engiyibeke ngayo ngiyahoxisa. Uqhubeke nenkulumo yakho mama. [Ubuwelewele.]
Nk M S KHAWULA: Niyakhumbula ngathi isiZulu asitolikwa kodwa lapha. [Ubuwelewele.] Kulungile, hhayi ... Nzimande ibuhlungu le nto ngoba sisuka nawe kwaZulu isiZulu uyasazi. [Ubuwelewele.]
USOMLOMO: Mama uKhawula awuhoxise phela sizoqhubeka nomsebenzi.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Kulungile, ngiyaxolisa. Ngiyabonga-ke. [Ubuwelewele.]
SOMLOMO: Malungu ahloniphekile ngicela nivumele umama uKhawula aqede.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Inkinga engiphethe kabuhlungu la yihlazo elikhulu ukuthi ngempela ngempela kusho ukuthi nathi sizothi silapha ePhalamende siyafika sekwakhiwe izindlu ngalena emuva sithi asazi. Kusho ukuthi ngempela ikhona inkinga esafunwa ukubhekwa la ngoba thina uma sibona umuntu akhelwa indlu sazi ukuthi uyazi ngoba ngeke yakhiwe indlu ize isayinelwe unga ....
Okubuhlungu ke ukuthi bakithi kunzima emphakathini, abantu basemakhaya ngisho eNkandla uqobo abanazindlu, abanamanzi kodwa amanzi agcwele laphaya emzini kaMongameli, kuyabuswa kwenziwa yonke into. Akuyona into esasiyilwelayo thina ukuthi kuzozuza thina kuqala kunabantu. [Ubuwelewele.]
Mina umbuzo wami nje uthi: Ngempela ngempela unembeza washonaphi? Ngoba uma ngabe ungumuntu kufuneka ngempela ukuqaphele ukuthi ungadli usuthe kodwa umakhelwane wami engadli. Ukuthi ngingaze ngijabulele ukuthi nginayo yonke into kodwa omakhelwane bami abanalutho bayahlupheka, ngisho ezikoleni ziyahlupheka. Sinezintandane sinabafelokazi, balambile. Kuyimanje nje kunabantu abasahlala emjondolo, nabahlala emathuneni emijondolo bafaka izindlu. Abanazo izindawo zokuhlala, abanamanzi, abanamitholampilo.
Besicela ukwazi ukuthi: Kule minyaka engama-20 ngempela bekwenzekani? Kusho ukuthi njengoba sasizabalaza sasizabalazela ukuthi umuntu azidlele yena na? [Ubuwelewele.] Ngangizabalaza nawe! Njengabantu bakwaZulu besicela ukuthi uMongameli angasiphoxi; siyamcela ukuthi akakhumbule abantu ngoba le nto asiyiboni iwubulungiswa siyibona ingubutha nobungubugebengu obukhulu. Ngiyabonga. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.]
Mr N SINGH
Ms M KHAWULA
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, on 26 September this year, ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Mr N SINGH: I need some injury time, too much noise.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow hon Singh to speak.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, 15 seconds of my time has gone because I couldn’t even hear myself.
Hon Speaker, on 26 September, the IFP withdrew from the ad hoc committee on Nkandla because the ANC majority had deliberately crippled the committee’s work. Turning a blind eye to Rule 138, they refused to call the authors of the relevant reports to appear before the committee, and refused to seek legal opinion on the powers of the Public Protector. An impasse was created which could only be resolved through the direct intervention of the President.
Our nation rightly looks to its head of state to uphold, defend and respect the Constitution, and to promote the unity of our nation and all that which will advance the Republic. In time of crisis, when our Constitution is under threat, these fundamental responsibilities are amplified. In the interest of South Africa, our constitutional democracy, and settling this matter, the President should have intervened. He should have provided a mandate to his colleagues on the committee to empower the committee’s work by, inter alia, allowing the President to answer our questions.
The President should have answered all outstanding questions from the reports of the Public Protector and the Special Investigating Unit. He should have complied with the remedial action prescribed by the Public Protector, and he should have reported to the National Assembly on all actions taken in this regard. As uppermost guardian of the Constitution, the President himself should have approached the Constitutional Court for the declaratory order giving legal certainty on the Public Protector’s powers. However, sadly, he did none of this.
The majority party report now selectively quotes from Justice Schippers’s judgment in the Western Cape High Court, but conveniently ignores his emphatic statement that findings and remedial action of the Public Protector are not ``mere recommendations which an organ of state may accept or reject.’’
The IFP rejects this report as predetermined, politically-biased and embarrassingly deceptive. [Applause.] Not once does it admit to nonsecurity upgrades - the swimming pool, the tuck shop, the amphitheatre, the cattle kraal and the chicken coop.
But the chickens have not yet come home to roost. New facts are likely to emerge from Mr Minenhle Makhanya’s court case, and from the disciplinary hearings. Not surprisingly, rumours already abound that charges against officials will be dropped, presumably so they won’t spill the beans. [Interjections.]
The ANC has closed this matter in the worst possible way. Nkandla is now a permanent stain on the Presidency and the ruling party. They have protected one man, but opened a wound in our nation that will bleed forever. [Interjections.] There is no doubt, hon Speaker, that more discussion and debate outside of this parliamentary precinct will continue on this very topic.
In theatrical terms, it is never over until the fat lady sings. The country will wait with bated breath, even until the cows come home to the R1,2 million kraal to hear the full side of the sad story. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr A SHAIK EMAM
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker. [Interjections.] Okay, I’m ready to start.
Hon Speaker, it is the duty of the state to ensure the safety and security of the President, as has been the case with all former presidents. [Interjections.] And we, as the NFP, are in support thereof. [Interjections.]
Hon Speaker, I’m not sure what is really in question. [Interjections.] My first point is: There is no doubt that there has been an inflation of prices. There is no doubt that it was grossly inflated to benefit some individuals. Nobody is disputing that. Nobody is disputing that there is a swimming pool; that there is a cattle kraal. Nobody is disputing that some of these upgrades may not be part and parcel of the security upgrade as such. [Interjections.] So that is not in dispute.
What is really in dispute – and should be in dispute – is the amount of money that has been spent on that upgrade and who duly benefited from it. [Interjections.] Now, I had the opportunity of attending the sitting the day prior to the walkout, and I must reiterate that the NFP had not given a mandate to anybody to walk out of this hearing. [Applause.] This was very, very clear.
In fact, my understanding is that the purpose of forming this ad hoc committee was to go and look ... And I can remember that we deliberated for four to five hours in this House to have all four reports tabled. These four reports that were supposed to be tabled ...
Ms H O MAXON: Speaker ... Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, what are you standing up for, because I have not recognised you. Please ...
Ms H O MAXON: Is the member prepared to take a question? [Interjections.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: No, I won’t. I don’t have much time. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: He doesn’t want to. Hon member, continue.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, this House debated and spent four hours – like we waste occasionally or daily – on all four reports. All four reports were tabled. At that sitting, the opposition parties did not want to see the tabled reports. They were only interested in the Public Protector’s report. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The NFP is of the opinion that yes, whoever is liable and responsible, including the President if he is responsible and benefited unduly, must pay. But that has not been substantiated, without any doubt, to this day. [Interjections.] It has not been done.
And, I believe and the NFP believes that this decision today, by the opposition, is premature. [Interjections.] Why not allow the process to unfold and allow it to unfold in a manner that you identify those responsible? I have been told that R155 million is going to be recovered, and maybe even more. So what is the point. At the end of the day, if the intention is to recover the money and identify those responsible, then why are we sitting here and deliberating on issues and spending unnecessary time making accusations which are unfounded? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President and hon members, the UDM rejects the so-called ad hoc committee report on Nkandla. [Applause.]
Evidence at hand shows that President Zuma and his Minister of Public Works, the police, the military and state security knew about this project. Therefore the claim that he did not know and never asked for them is far-fetched, and we reject it outright. Common sense dictates that a logical question be answered: Why did the President fail to stop the abuse of public funds in line with the oath of office?
Undisputed evidence indicates that he himself introduced a service provider, who was, at the time, his private architect, and a construction company through the Department of Public Works, directly in conflict with the Public Finance Management Act and its regulations. There was never a public procurement process followed, as regulated, yet they found themselves on the payroll of the Department of Public Works through his directives.
As part of the Public Protector’s remedial actions, she recommended that the National Treasury and the SA Police Service must quantify the amounts to be paid by the President, because he unduly benefited from the project. However, to determine the accurate amount to be paid by the President, the UDM proposes that a forensic audit be conducted. A forensic audit would have exposed in detail who instructed whom, when, and for what. This will bring an end to the shifting of blame to government officials for the cost escalation of the project.
In fact, we are already advised that some of the officials have been made to acknowledge debts, some in the region of R12 000, with the President’s private architect to pay R177 million, as determined by the Hawks. Accordingly, this House is not empowered to make any final determination on this matter until such time that every piece of evidence is considered and properly examined.
In conclusion, we call upon the affected officials, who are being harassed by the Hawks outside the process, to feel free to forward all the relevant reports, documents and information to the Forum of Opposition Parties, which will ensure a credible, unbiased consideration of such in defence of democracy, the Constitution and the people of South Africa.
IsiXhosa:
Apha sijongene nento umbutho olawulayo, i-ANC, ethe ilwa ubusela, amasela kufuneka siwaleqe singawaniki nethuba, siwabethe. Libe ngajonga ngapha isela silileqe. [Kwaphela ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, is that a point of order?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: It’s a point of concern. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: What is it?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: When the hon Holomisa was speaking, he looked like the hon Mulder on my screen. Now, I see the hon Mulder is sitting there. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder, please speak.
Mr C P MULDER
Mr B H HOLOMISA
Mr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, French King Louis XIV is remembered for a very familiar, well-known saying. He said: ``L’État, c’est moi.” [I am the state.] But there is an even more appropriate quote by King Louis XIV relevant to the whole Nkandla saga. And I quote: ``It is legal because I wish it.’’ And this is what happened at Nkandla. How do the ANC benches react? They take the quote: The King can do no wrong.
Now, the task of Parliament is to uphold the Constitution. Section 55 of the Constitution deals with the powers of the National Assembly. It says that the National Assembly must provide for mechanisms to ensure accountability and to maintain oversight of the executive.
Today we are talking about this. [Interjections.] This wonderful, lavish taxpayer-paid-for estate. We are talking about this. Now, who is the owner of this? The hon President is the owner of this. He must be the luckiest man in the world. Not only did he win the lottery of R1 million, he won it 246 consecutive times. [Applause.]
The ANC sent into that committee three members to protect the President - six of them actually - but three of them were the stalwarts. The first one was the hon Motshekga. If that hon member knew anything about the law, he should have recused himself, because he is conflicted. He was supposed to do oversight over the President, the same President that appointed his wife as a Minister in his Cabinet. That’s what you did. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Then, there were the other two ladies.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: On a point of order, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder, could you take your seat.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I am raising a point of order. It is very sexist and patriarchal ... [Interjections.] ... to suggest that a woman leader is appointed because she is somebody’s wife. [Interjections.] We strongly object to that. It is sexist; it’s patriarchal; it’s archaic; it’s uncivilised. [Interjections.] It does not belong to a democratic South Africa and, worse, this Parliament. [Applause.]
Ms H O MAXON: Point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder ...
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: it is not ...
The SPEAKER: No, wait, hon member.
Ms H O MAXON: It is not sexism; it’s nepotism. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder, please just withdraw the issue of the wife of because ... [Interjections.] ... somebody ... She is an hon member. She is an hon member.
Mr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, may I address you on your request. I have to address you.
The SPEAKER: Yes, you have to address me.
Mr C P MULDER: Thank you. So, I am addressing you.
In reaction to the leader of the SA Communist Party, the fact of the matter is I did not say that the hon Minister was appointed because she is ... [Inaudible.] ... I’m addressing the Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder, you said you were going to address me. Now I see you are talking to the hon Nzimande.
Mr C P MULDER: Okay, Ma’am. I will address you then.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. [Interjections.] No, please, hon members – when we are still in the middle of something, let’s just wait until we finish dealing with this issue. [Interjections.] Hon Mulder?
Mr C P MULDER: Thank you, hon Speaker. I did not say that the hon Minister of Basic Education was appointed because she is married to a certain gentleman. I did not say that. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: What did you say?
Mr C P MULDER: I said that the hon Motshekga, who is supposed to do oversight of the President, is conflicted, because he must judge the actions of the President who is, by coincidence, the same person who appointed his wife. [Interjections.] That is the reality. That is the conflict of interests. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon Mulder. Please don’t be unfair to us. [Interjections.] Don’t be unfair to us. You can’t make a reference to an hon member of the House in the kind of - hon Mulder, do you mind taking your seat - actually sexist ... [Interjections.] ... and dismissive ... [Interjections.] I would like you to withdraw it, hon Mulder.
Mr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, it is not .What I have said it is not sexist in any way, but the fact is I have some more important things to say and, because I want to say them, I will gladly withdraw. I have got no problem with that. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: All right.
Mr C P MULDER: Thank you, Ma’am. Then, Madam Speaker, there were the two ladies ... [Interjections.]
Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Speaker, can I be recognised? Can I be recognised, hon Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. What is the point on which you rise?
Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: The point I want to make is that hon Mulder has been holding that picture to show the nation that the President built the homestead with taxpayers’ money ... [Interjections.] ... it is not true. That picture is misleading. [Interjections.] That picture is misleading because the ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
Mr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, may I proceed? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I have asked to see the picture so that I can deal with that issue. [Interjections.]
Proceed, hon Mulder. [Applause.]
Mr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, then there are the two other ladies who led the attack to protect the President: the hon Kubayi and the hon Dlakude. How were they upholding the Constitution and doing oversight over the executive? Let me show you. There – this is what they did. [Interjections.] [Applause.] They didn’t have in front of them the Constitution. In front of them they had Cutex and they were painting their nails. [Interjections.] This is what they did. This is how they upheld the Constitution. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Now, hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, please! We would like to hear what the hon Mulder is saying. Now we can’t hear.
Mr C P MULDER: That is how seriously the ANC took oversight. Two hundred and forty-six million rand of taxpayers’ money was spent on the private residence of the President. If something is wrong, you can’t vote it right. It remains wrong. So, I am sorry to say, hon Speaker, but the only appropriate thing to do with this whitewash report of the ad hoc committee is the following: ... [Applause.] That’s all you can do. [Applause.]
Dr C P MULDER
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, the security upgrades that were carried out at the President’s private residence have been the subject of intense discussions over the last few months. What made the situation even more untenable was the fact that political expediency and sensationalism were often chosen over the truth and facts. [Interjections.] This situation was also compounded by the fact that the truth was continuously distorted for political mileage, which is indeed unfortunate when the public is misled for political expediency. [Interjections.]
I therefore want to express this view from the onset, that all the opposition parties that walked away from this process, have regrettably only succeeded in disappointing their constituencies. [Interjections.] Opposition parties have lost sight of a very significant fact, which is that democracy hinges greatly on robust debate and robust deliberations. It is only through robust debate and a greater tolerance for opposing views that we are able to measure the merits and strengths of the arguments that we present.
Having walked out on this process, I believe that a very significant opportunity was missed by the opposition parties, to participate in a very fundamental democratic process of Parliament. [Applause.] And this is an opportunity that will never be regained. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Let me now return to the task before me and proceed to make pronouncements on the findings of the ad hoc committee which dealt with the security upgrades at the President’s private residence.
Hon Speaker, I want to state from the onset that the agenda and mandate of the ad hoc committee was, first and foremost, to isolate and zoom in on the factual merits surrounding this issue.
Firstly, due to the fact that many distortions of facts had been peddled, we had to be meticulous and precise in the approach to expose the truth. [Interjections.]
Secondly, we wanted to ensure that we arrive at a sober conclusion, which can be verified and easily located in all source documents considered by the ad hoc committee.
Thirdly, in recognition that this matter was an issue of national importance, we opened up this process to the public, in order to demonstrate transparency in action by the ad hoc committee. [Applause.]
We did not conduct the proceedings of the ad hoc committee in secrecy or closed sessions ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon Dlakude, can you just stop for a moment.
I would like to ask the hon members of the opposition who are bringing objects to desist from doing that. [Interjections.] Hon members, there are points below which we should resist going. [Interjections.] Please proceed, hon Dlakude!
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, we did not conduct the proceedings of the ad hoc committee in secrecy or closed sessions as if to hide information, nor did we use our numbers to enforce secrecy or concealment of information. Instead, we attempted to engage in robust debates with members of the opposition in order to effectively test the strength of all arguments presented by all parties involved. It was in this vein that our work commenced as we sought to ensure that the findings of this ad hoc committee are exposed to adequate scrutiny and that their veracity has been effectively tested.
In his report to the Speaker of the National Assembly, on 14 August 2014, the President gave clarity around the issue of ownership and occupation of land. He explicitly stated that there are two pieces of land. The one piece is owned by the Ingonyama Trust, which is the legal entity that owns the land and is administered by His Majesty King Goodwill Zwelithini kaBhekuzulu.
The second piece of land is occupied by the Zuma family through a certificate termed ``permission or right to occupy’’, issued by the local chief or inkosi.
Upon closer analysis, the ad hoc committee observed that there are structures built on the Ingonyama Trust land which can be utilised for the greater benefit of the community beyond the President’s tenure. [Interjections.] In relation to the above, the ad hoc committee recommends that, and I quote:
The relevant executive committee should, at the appropriate time, discuss the President’s post-tenure arrangements with the relevant local, provincial and national authorities in order to facilitate the future use of such structures and amenities by the local communities.
In 2008, prior to being elected the President, the Zuma family started expanding and improving their homestead. At the time of the President’s inauguration in 2009, there were already structures on which work had already started and were at various stages of construction. The enhancement of the President’s homestead was financed by a mortgage bond, which the President declared to the Registrar of Members’ Interests. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order!
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, on the point of order!
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon Gardee?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order here, Madam Speaker, is that all the investigative units did not see the so-called bond from the bank! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee! [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: So, the hon member should not mislead the House about the bond! Can she continue her speech without referring to things that do not exist! Thank you. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee! Hon Gardee, you can come and debate if you are on the speaker’s list. Leave the hon member to finish her speech. [Interjections.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, on a point of order!
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon Hlengwa?
Mr M HlENGWA: Hon Speaker, my point of order is that the hon member must not mislead this House.
The land on Ingonyama Trust does not pay the bond. [Interjections.] It is a known fact. The hon member is misleading this House. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot engage with her like that! Hon Dlakude, please proceed.
Siswati:
Ms D DLAKUDE: Somlomo lohloniphekile, liciniso liyababa!
English:
Allow me to quote page 242, paragraph 7.13.3 of the Pubic Protector’s report and I quote:
However, with the assistance of the Director-General in the Presidency, I established, on 17 December 2013, from the Registrar of Members’ Interests, that the President has declared a mortgage bond in respect of his private residence at Nkandla since 2009.
[Applause.]
I was also given assurance by the President’s legal team that the ...
[Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order! Can I be recognised on a point of order, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee!
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, this one is a point of order and it cannot be ignored, please!
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, what is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order is that the hon member is actually saying the same thing that no bond was seen! That was revealed by the registrar. She must stop that! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, that is not the point of order! Please take your seat!
Mr G A GARDEE: The hon member is misleading this House, Madam Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Take your seat! Take your seat. Please finish up, hon Dlakude.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I have quoted the Public Protector’s report and have given the hon members the pages and the paragraph. So, if you do not want to hear that then, vala tindlebe takho. [Close your ears.] [Interjections.]
Allow me to say the fact that, whenever the name Nkandla is mentioned and the homestead of the President is shown in the media, a wrong impression is given to the public that public funds were used to built this homestead. [Interjections.] We, as the ad hoc committee, raise serious concerns regarding the safety and security of the President.
With regard to the architectural designs, it was found that the Zuma family had appointed its own architects to contract and improve their homestead. The President was therefore already in the process of building his own home when security upgrades commenced at his private residence. As the architect who had been appointed in the expansion initiative by the Zuma family, Mr Minenhle Makhanya was introduced by the President to the Department of Public Works team, mainly because of the advanced construction taking place at the President’s homestead.
In addition, the President in his report to the Speaker on 14 August also acknowledges that the purpose for the introduction of Mr Makhanya was for the following reasons: Firstly, Mr Makhanya was already engaged in building works at the President’s private home. Secondly, it was done in order to appraise the Department of Public Works team of existing plans and design of construction. Lastly, it was to ensure as little disruption as possible to commissioned work.
The President did not give an instruction for the Department of Public Works professional team to cede control of the security upgrade project to Mr Makhanya. This introduction was for the sole purpose of information sharing. What ensued beyond this point of introduction is indeed an indictment to the democratic system of our country. It aggregates to the looting of state resources, which were intended to be utilised in a responsible and efficient manner.
Upon further interrogation of the source documents before the ad hoc committee, serious anomalies were found, particularly with regard to noncompliance with relevant legislation, which led to irregular actions and massive cost escalations. Key common findings across all the source documents indicated that cost escalations inflated the project costs in an irregular manner to an excess amount of R216 million. Although the Cabinet Memo of 2003 was used to initiate the security upgrades, it was completely deviated from and disregarded throughout the duration of the project.
The reports also document a process amounting to the dereliction of duty ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Ms D E DLAKUDE
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker and hon Deputy President, colleagues and friends, today we are witnessing a culmination of an exercise in mass deception. [Interjections.] In 2012, the National Assembly was persuaded and approved a budget that was given and tabled before us. However, as the Public Protector’s report showed, shortly thereafter, R20 million which was allocated for the Dolomite Risk Management Project in Gauteng, was diverted to Northern KwaZulu-Natal to build a little Durban. [Applause.]
The National Assembly, the Treasury and every community that was affected by this remain, to this day, believing that that money coming to them was going to help deal with the problems of dolomite.
Shortly thereafter, on 7 March, a further R36 million was again diverted to this pet project that was happening there. Nor was that all. On 12 September, another R40 million was diverted to Nkandla. [Applause.] All of these were monies that had been allocated to develop various poor communities. And yet that money went there. What do you think?
The hon President occupied this podium and told us that, yes, that project was going on but he was paying for it from a family bond. I must say today that the Public Protector has asked for it, but it has never been produced and has yet to be produced - if it is there. [Applause.]
This is terrible deception. The whole country continues to believe that the National Assembly voted for that money and it has gone to service the needs of our people. This is virement of an alarming proportion.
You may not ... Nobody who knows anything about government may divert money which has been approved by this House for one purpose and take it and build your own extended family accommodation with it. Yet that has been done. What we are being asked today is to approve this thing that has been done in our name after we had voted. [Interjections.]
Now, that was not all. The sad part of it is that former Minister Doidge, who quietly resisted the pressures from these things ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Speaker, on a point of order!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: ... was dismissed and then sent to Siberia out of the country.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon member? Just hold on, hon Lekota, please!
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Speaker, my apologies to the hon Lekota. My point of order is that there is an hon member on that side who is behaving like a ringside announcer, waving pictures. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, no, hon member. That is not a point of order!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker, you are in charge of the House, not that gentleman there! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, it is not parliamentary to display pictures in the House, unless one is at the podium.
The SPEAKER: That is true. The hon member must desist from waving the picture continuously. The hon member who was at the podium showed us the picture. We do not need hon members to be doing that in contempt of the hon member who is now at the podium, who is trying to catch your attention. Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: We know that you are infatuated with the ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon members! May I ask you to take your seat, hon Cronin, please. I want to let the hon Lekota to finish.
Actually, there is a Rule here that does not allow us to disrupt a speaker at the podium, unless there is something very serious. Hon Lekota!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker, the point I was making is that the Minister who resisted found himself dismissed and then sent out somewhere in Siberia. [Interjections.] The second one, Gwen Mahlangu, who in a much shorter time looked and resisted, found herself also out and away. The present Minister is only surviving in so far as he is playing all kinds of tricks to protect and whitewash all these things that have been done here and so on. I do not know how long he will last. I have my doubts. He is not likely to last forever as well. The ad hoc committee ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: But I have 25 seconds left here!
The SPEAKER: No! It is more! It is beyond your allocated minutes! [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker! We, as the Cope, will not support this whitewash! [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker! Hon Speaker! Let the member come back, please! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I am not allowing the hon member to come back! [Interjections.]
Mr S N SWART
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Mr S N SWART: I rise on behalf of the ACDP, in joining the opposition parties in rejecting this report. [Applause.]
Now, the hon Dlakude refers to the truth. I would remind the hon members that when they drive outside of the parliamentary gate across the road, at the Catholic church, is a big statement which says, ``The truth shall set you free.” Say no to the Secrecy Bill!’’ [Interjections.] The ACDP says the truth shall set you free; say no to the ad hoc committee report! [Applause.]
Now I would like to focus on the Public Protector and the institution of the Public Protector from a legal perspective. The report takes great pains in quoting Judge Schippers’ judgment. And it is so important that we be reminded that this judge said it does not mean that the findings and the remedial actions are mere recommendations which an organ of state may accept or reject. Now, this ad hoc committee and Parliament are organs of state. We are bound by the findings of Judge Schippers. He said, ``Disregarding the findings and remedial action subvert the Public Protector’s powers.’’ What we are doing is that we are subverting a Chapter 9 institution. The ANC is subverting the Constitution today. [Interjections.]
Now, what should have happened? The judge sets it out in his judgment. I do not know what legal advice the committee got, but when the ACDP and other members left the committee, obviously the legal advice was wanting. The judge said that the correct action is to engage the Public Protector and resolve the matter. And that where there is a dispute – now this is important – even when the dispute is by an organ of state, that organ of state, ie the ad hoc committee, must engage the Public Protector. It cannot impose its findings.
What did that ad hoc committee do? It imposed its findings without engaging, and that is unlawful. [Interjections.] It is against the Constitution and undermines this Chapter 9 institution. So, we need to be very aware. The President has done it in the first instance, and now the ad hoc committee is doing it as well.
We, as the ACDP, have seen and carefully studied the ad hoc committee’s report. It selectively quotes those parts of the Public Protector’s report that suits its version and that exonerates President Zuma. But when it comes to the findings and the remedial actions it does not implement those at all. That is untenable in law. It is untenable in law. I plead with the members of the ANC to reconsider it, because this will not be upheld by a court of law. It will not be upheld. [Interjections.]
When the opposition takes this – because, clearly, you have decided to enforce your will on Parliament - organ of state, Parliament, to court, it will be overturned by a court of law in terms of Judge Schippers’s judgment. The ACDP will not support this report. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L M NTSHAYISA S SWART
Mr N S SWART
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Speaker, I think we all agree that there was a misuse of funds at Nkandla; it is a fact that we cannot run away from. And it is proper that one or two people should be held accountable for that. [Interjections.]
It became clear from the onset that the members of the ad hoc committee dealing with the issue of Nkandla had a different perspective in their approach to this matter. It must also be noted how the Constitution is sometimes interpreted to suit the circumstances of a particular individual at a particular time. As the AIC we also observed with interest how the powers and the independence of Chapter 9 institutions are being undermined when they do not favour those that are in power.
It is interesting to note that section 182(3) of the Constitution empowers the Public Protector to take appropriate remedial action, and the report of the committee says that it is not binding on any organ of the state. Yet the same committee recommends that the President may take appropriate action against any member of the executive who failed to implement the provisions of the Cabinet Memorandum of 2003, knowing very well that those actions will not be binding on anyone. That is very interesting.
Rule 138(a) of the Rules of the National Assembly allows the committee to summon anyone to appear before it to give evidence. But, according to this report, no one appeared. [Interjections.] That in itself shows immaturity in our democracy.
As the AIC, we do not accept this report as it leaves much to be desired. [Applause.] The manner in which the committee conducted its work is not satisfactory. It is clear, therefore, that the President really unduly benefited from this project. [Applause.] The mere fact that the legal opinion suggested by the opposition parties was refused means that there is something fishy in all this. [Interjections.]
The remedial action put forward by the Public Protector is just like a medicine to heal the sick, and therefore should be taken and made use of. What about when something wrong has been discovered? The affected person should admit and correct the mistake. Let us protect our Constitution and take rational decisions for the future of this country and that of our children. [Applause.]
You know, hon Speaker, this arrogance will never take us any where. It is because of arrogance that things such as these are done, that will never take us anywhere. Accountability, honesty and dignity are some of the fundamental principles that are to be observed in our democracy. To observe the rule of law and the Constitution is very, very important. Therefore as the African Independent Congress we say - of course we speak our independent mind - someone must pay! Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker, I just want to say Agang rejects this report. [Applause.]
It must be noted that President Zuma has become the Judas Iscariot, the Mobutu Sese Seko, the Idi Amin of our time. [Laughter.]
The report is a political endeavour to clear President Zuma. It is a clear attempt to stop Parliament from holding the President to account. It is also a clear sign that President Zuma and his friends are above the law. [Interjections.]
The Nkandla nightmare is a clear manifestation that our miracle rainbow nation has become the harvest of greedy leaders. President Zuma has reached paradise, and the ANC is reacting like gods to protect him in Nkandla from the law.
I can’t believe this! So soon, former struggle heroes and activists who were willing to die for this country have now sold their souls and their honour to protect one man. Just one man! [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The ANC must remember this, and they must remember this very well: You can’t lie to our people forever. [Interjections.]
I want to emphasise further that Agang believes that the Zuma Presidency is a shame and a disgrace to our country. We must be frank with South Africans: If we don’t remove President Zuma, then is the ANC – hon members who participated in removing former President Thabo Mbeki from office – telling us that former President Mbeki was worse than Zuma? [Interjections.] I refuse... I truly refuse to believe that of former President Mbeki. We owe him an apology, because this one ... the President of this country ... is worse than him! [Applause.]
Agang is saying to you: If you allow this report and you allow this President to finish his term, don’t do it in this country. Do it somewhere else! This President deserves to be removed from office with immediate effect. And when we do that, we should not even feel any sympathy for him, because he has made our country a harvest for him and his friends to enjoy, without the people of this country benefiting, be it through housing or basic services.
I am warning you, the ANC, that you are not going to be the ruling party for long if you keep President Zuma in power! [Interjections.]
I want to say this – I hope the President is listening – I hope he can do us a favour and resign with immediate effect, because we want to hold our heads high when we go about in this country. [Time expired.][Applause.]
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Deputy President, and hon members, hon Holomisa said that the country faces a constitutional crisis. [Interjections.] In South Africa there is no constitutional crisis. There is a constitutional illiteracy on the part of the DA-led unholy political alliance... [Interjections.] ... which does not respect the due process of the law and parliamentary Rules of procedure. [Interjections.]
The constitutional illiterates among us are tarnishing the image of our country and bringing the Office of the President into disrepute without factual or legal basis and contrary to the Rules of this honourable House. [Interjections.]
Today, hon Maimane sank into the pig sty of dirty politics. [Interjections.] He rejected the report without a factual, legal or constitutional basis, and made an outrageous statement without substantive evidence, that the President wilfully used his power – the power of his Office – to benefit himself. [Interjections.] Even the Public Protector did not make that finding. Where does hon Maimane find it? It means that the greatest liar of the century is hon Maimane! [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, given the fact that the hon member is a former Chief Whip who got sacked, he knows that calling an hon member a liar is unparliamentary, and he must withdraw. [Interjections.]
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: The statement of... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Motshekga... [Interjections.]
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I withdraw, but want to remind this House... [Interjections.]... that the statement that hon Maimane is the greatest... liar... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Motshekga, withdraw that statement.
Afrikaans:
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Agb Dr Mulder, ek het groot respek vir u...
English:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. My understanding is that you asked hon Motshekga to withdraw the statement. He then proceeded to repeat the offending statement...
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I withdrew a long time ago. You can’t hear because you are making a noise. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I wish you had withdrawn a long time ago. Parliament would have been a better place! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, order! We want to hear each other.
Afrikaans:
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Agb Dr Mulder, ek het groot respek vir u. Ek glo u samewerking met die DA – wat altyd probeer om die Afrikaners te angliseer – het u in verwarring gestort. Ek vergewe u vir wat u oor my, my vrou en die President gesê het. [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
Hon members, this is a legislature. If you want to evaluate a report of the ad hoc committee, you can only do it in the light of the Constitution and the law. But the constitutional illiterates on my left are not able to engage with the report because they don’t understand the Constitution and the law.
Mr G GARDEE: Order, Deputy Speaker. Order, Deputy Speaker! Can the Deputy Speaker recognise me on a point of order? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member... [Interjections.]
Mr G GARDEE: Sit down so that I can continue with the point of order. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, you are out of order, and I suggest you sit down. You speak even before I’ve recognised you. You give orders to members. That’s wrong. Sit down, hon member.
Mr G GARDEE: But on the actual point of order that I wanted to raise ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member. You are giving... [Interjections.]
Mr G GARDEE: He is calling us ``illiterates’’. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is a point of debate; it is not a point of order. Please take your seat, hon member.
Mr G GARDEE: Oh, okay.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, in terms of Rule 63, the hon Motshekga referred to people as ``the constitutional illiterates on my left.’’ I would submit that that is incredibly insulting to the hon Cronin, Nzimande and Nxesi, and I would ask that he withdraws that. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Deputy Speaker... [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, to direct the debate in terms of the Constitution and the law, we must remind the people here that there were three grounds on which the opposition withdrew: Firstly, they withdrew because they said we wanted to treat the report of the Public Protector as being equal to other reports. Secondly, they withdrew because we refused to call witnesses. Thirdly, they withdrew because we refused to call for a legal opinion.
Let me address the question of the witnesses first. The committee did not arbitrarily refuse to call any witness. The committee said, if the need arises, we will do so, but the DA-led alliance did not remain in attendance to establish the need. They left. But also... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: ... despite... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Motshekga, please take your seat. Hon member, what are you rising on?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I submit that hon Motshekga is misrepresenting and misleading the House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member... [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: He says that... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No... [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: He says that they... he says we made a request to say witnesses must be brought. The ANC proceeded to vote against it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is a point of debate; it is not a point of order. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, he can’t mislead the House! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is not a point of order, hon member! [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: The committee ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, if you do that again, you are out of this House! [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: The committee...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are out of this House if you do that again. You can’t scream like that - as if this is a shebeen, hon member! [Laughter.] This is wrong! No, this is wrong! [Interjections.]
Proceed, hon... [Interjections.]
Hon members, I beg you... I beg you to be orderly. [Interjections.] Your comments are disruptive. [Interjections.] Proceed, hon member.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: The committee considered all four reports and found no basis on which to call any witness. [Interjections.] Secondly, the committee, in terms of Rule 138, examined the practices of ad hoc committees that came before, and found that, in 2004, the ad hoc committee did not call witnesses. Therefore, in terms of the principle of precedence, the committee decided that it was not necessary to call any witness.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker...
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: So we did not act arbitrarily.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Motshekga, please take your seat. What are you rising on, hon member?
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to ask from the hon member whether he is prepared to answer a rather easy question. [Interjections.]
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: At the end.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He says at the end, hon member.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I think, with respect, the opposition members must accept that they prematurely said that the remedial actions of the Public Protector were binding. On the basis of that wrong misunderstanding, they came here and launched a payback campaign. But now, unfortunately, the Western Cape High Court came to the determination that the remedial actions of the Public Protector are not binding or enforceable. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
So, you were defeated by the court, and now you are frustrated. [Interjections.] You want to get... [Interjections.]
And... hon Swart, you know I have great respect for you, but today you disappointed me... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Ah, cry me a river! [Interjections.]
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: ... because we, as the committee, agree with the court that you cannot just reject the remedial reports or the recommendations without cogent reasons. It is for that reason that the President and various Ministers took various steps to address the situation at Nkandla. That shows that the committee and the ANC in particular was well ahead of even the courts, because we knew that we can’t simply dismiss the findings of the committee.
But I think that... let’s agree that there is no evidence in all the reports that there was undue influence on the part of the President on the principal agent and others. In fact, it is interesting that the Public Protector herself says that some Ministers strayed too close to the areas of responsibility, but she does not say that of the President. Now, on what basis does one link how... [Interjections.] On what basis does one link the escalation of the costs and the security safeguards that were made with the President? There is no basis to link the President with anything. But, because people had already made up their minds, they came to that...
Let me also address the question of undue benefit. There was a...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Sorry. [Interjections.]
]
In conclusion... [Interjections.] In conclusion...
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker! [Interjections.]
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: ...the ANC has not absolved the President from anything. The committee said that we need further security... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker...
An HON MEMBER: Will you take the question?
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I’ll take the question.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member! No, hon member! The time has expired.
Dr C P MULDER: I know.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And so... no... [Interjections.] So he didn’t provide for you within his time. It has to be in his time, and his time has expired, hon member. [Interjections.] So it is still the end. You can go out and ask your question. Yes, hon member?
Dr C P MULDER: Thank you, hon Speaker. You might be surprised, but I do know the Rules. I am not here to ask a question. I know the time has expired.
I’m rising on a point of order. It is completely unacceptable that the hon member ignores the Chair, after you’ve said his time has expired, and just continues!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member...
Dr C P MULDER: So, what...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, if that precedent... [Interjections.] Hon Deputy Speaker, I am waiting for you to create order in the House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, make your point.
Dr C P MULDER: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The point I am making is that you had clearly indicated to the hon member that his time had expired. That meant that he had to leave the podium. He ignored the Chair, and he continued with his speech.
Now, if that precedent is going to be accepted by the Chair, we are all going to do that! Is that what you want? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me tell you... Let me answer you, hon member. Hon Mulder, hon members in this House, including in the opposition ranks, have been doing that. [Interjections.] And... and... [Interjections.] No, no, no, no! I have said to you, here on the platform, your time has expired, more than twice, more than thrice, throughout the House. You have been creating that precedent yourselves.
So all members - I have said so often in the House - can self-manage. You can time yourself. Watch the clock on the left. I have said that often here, because you yourselves were going beyond the time limits that were given. I would not have asked you to self-manage, time yourself, if it was not because you were overstepping the time allotted to you. You can’t claim now that it is a precedent that was set by hon Motshekga. It is doing what I have said to all members in this House: You must self-manage.
Ms A STEYN
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Ms A STEYN: On a point of order, hon Deputy Speaker: Hon Deputy Speaker, I didn’t want to rise while the speaker was at the podium, but I also want to point out that Rule 70 of the National Assembly Rules on points of orders ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Let the member speak.
Ms A STEYN: When a point of order is raised, the member called to order shall resume his or her seat, and the hon member never did that. I think in future the member must know his Rules and obey the Speaker. [Interjections.] Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Thank you for reminding members.
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, comrades and hon members, the APC welcomes this report ... [Applause.] ... especially its thrust to seek to deal with the systemic weaknesses in financial management as well as gaps in the policy and implementation of prestige projects. The report of the Public Protector in part vindicates the reports of the Auditor-General on the collapse of internal controls in the Public Works Department with a recently reported irregular expenditure of about R30 billion over a number of years. As a consequence, scope creep and cost escalations became the norm in the Department of Public Works prestige programmes.
Unfortunately, the thrust and content of opposition politics in this country is arbitrary, mechanical and negative. [Applause.] The Public Protector did not find the President guilty of any criminal conduct; she has, however, directed that for nonsecurity constructs he should pay some amount. The APC believes that this particular aspect must be complied with without prejudice, unless successfully challenged legally.
We are, however, aware of paragraph 5,9 in the report which is meant to bring this aspect to a close. Parliament should ensure that the timeframe for reports to the House should be adhered to so as to ensure that those responsible are held accountable and the identified systemic weaknesses are corrected. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J SELFE
Mr N T GODI
Mr J SELFE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa’s, attitude was entirely predictable since he obviously has to sing for his supper. We are confronted today by a situation which defines so much of what is wrong with South Africa under its current government and with Parliament with this current majority.
Between 2009 and 2011 some R246 million was spend on the Nkandla residence of the President. This matter was investigated by a number of institutions and all these institutions conceded that irregularities occurred. Where they differ is about who was responsible for those irregularities and what needs to happen about it. But if you read all those reports together, you’ll discern a pattern. It starts with big man politics where Number One gets everything that he wants, whether it’s upgrades to his home or allowing his pal Gupta to land at a military airbase. Number One appoints Cabinet members who jump at his command and who get fired if they don’t deliver. If you don’t believe me about Nkandla, go and ask Geoff Doidge or Gwen Mahlangu.
The second aspect of this pattern is cadre deployment, where civil servants are appointed, not because of their ability to do the job, but because of their loyalty to the ruling party, or, still worse, a faction in that ruling party. If they don't jump at Number One’s command, they too are the subject of disciplinary steps. If you don’t believe me, speak to Kenneth Khanyile, Genl Ramlakan or Jean Rindel.
The third aspect is the deliberate conflation of the costs associated with the private upgrades to Mr Zuma’s home, and the security upgrades to which Presidents are entitled, in terms of the Cabinet Memorandum of 2003. Thus Mr Zuma introduced his architect, Mr Makhanya, who was extending his private home to Public Works, and Mr Makhanya became the principal agent for both. How convenient! This allowed the costs associated with the private upgrades to be merged with those relating to the security upgrades. Was this coincidence? Of course not! It was part of a deliberate scheme to absolve Mr Zuma from paying for the improvements to his own home.
Exonerating Mr Zuma is what this exercise is all about. The Public Protector was asked to investigate this mess. The security Ministers tried to warn her off. She persisted. Mr Zuma ignored her questions for nine months, and then answered only 12 of the 29 questions she put to him. In her report, the Public Protector ordered Mr Zuma - with the assistance of the National Treasury and the SAPS - to find out what the costs of the improvements that did not relate to security upgrades were, and to pay a reasonable percentage of those costs.
Mr Zuma chose to ignore that remedial action. He didn’t give reasons for his refusal to do so, nor did he engage the Public Protector, as the judgment of Justice Schippers now obliges him to do. The hon Motshekga would do well to avoid selectively quoting from that judgment. Instead, he wrote the Public Protector a condescending letter on 11 September, telling her that he had decided to let the Minister of Police - a person appointed by Mr Zuma - determine whether or not he was liable to repay anything at all. He also suggested that she wait for the ANC study group on the ad hoc committee to deliver their verdict. Well, surprise, surprise! The ANC cadres on that committee, in a fatuous 34-page report, argue that Mr Zuma cannot be held responsible for the upgrades because the Cabinet memorandum procedures were not followed.
Mr Zuma knew about those upgrades. He complained about the disruption they were causing. He was unhappy about the bulletproof glass that was being installed, so much so that poor Geoff Doidge had to go off to the factory. He was regularly briefed by the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Public Works. He must have been blind and deaf not to have seen what was happening around him. And he must have known that a swimming pool, a cattle kraal, an amphitheatre and a visitors’ centre could not possibly have been necessary for his safety. So we have a President who has disrespected and disregarded the Public Protector, who has unduly benefited from taxpayer’s money, who has violated his oath of office, who has misled Parliament, and the majority party exonerates him.
We have arrived at a crossroads in our democracy. The ad hoc committee, of which the hon Dlakude is so proud, is a whitewash and a travesty. This House has a duty to reject it. If this House chooses to accept the report and exonerate the President, it will be dishonouring the struggle for democracy, and it will also be choosing to relegate itself to irrelevance. [Applause.]
Ms M KUBAYI
Mr J SELFE
Ms M T KUBAYI: Hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, comrades and compatriots, the ANC in the committee through the leadership has reiterated ... [Interjections.]... I think you’re going to have to fasten your seatbelts, because it’s going to be a bumpy ride.
The ANC in the committee, through the leadership, has reiterated our commitment to defending the Constitution and our institutions supporting democracy. Contrary to popular belief, the ANC supports the Office of the Public Protector and believes that it was not a mistake to establish such an institution.
The impression that is created that the reports of the Public Protector are binding and enforceable needs to be explained, especially by the DA together with the party – especially the leader. Maybe I must leave one minute for the leader of the DA to explain why the DA in its leadership - where it’s leading - the following reports were not fully implemented - if they’re agreeing that the reports are binding and are enforceable. Report number one of 2012-13, dated 1 June 2012, termed ``Yes, we made mistakes’’. The Premier promised to resign if the probe found irregularities in the handling of the contract. Four counts of maladministration were found. Have you asked her what happened? Why has she not resigned as she promised? [Interjections.]
Let me remind the DA that the preliminary report of the Public Protector, under the investigation of Adv Ruthven Janse van Rensburg, pronounced maladministration and misuse of state resources. Within two weeks the Premier met – which is within her rights – with this leader of the investigating team and the report was changed. Guess what? Later, Adv Ruthven Janse van Rensburg was employed in the Office of the Premier. [Interjections.] This is what the DA is doing. I want to ask: Why do we not know about this? The media, together with the DA, choose selectively to make noise about what they want. I’m proving this because you’re obsessed about one person. There’s no principle, there’s nothing.
Again, let’s come to the report on Midvaal’s major findings - I’m flagging this - that was reported on October 2012. This one I’m flagging because I want to show the public and South Africans that all this noise that they’re making is because of this type of hypocrisy and a lack of principle - their obsession with attacking President Zuma - and that’s losing focus. People make noise saying that we are here to engage because there must be a debate in the National Assembly. They ran away from debates. We were engaging and we never voted in the ad hoc committee. We engaged until they ran away. When they ran away from that – let me tell you, hon members – the antimajoritarian forces within the pantocracy and the media have often accused the ANC of wilfully abusing its parliamentary majority by steamrollering its position through voting instead of using superior arguments to win debates. We engaged them and they ran away from the debate, taking the saying literally: If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. [Applause.] They did that. [Interjections.]
It is important to understand. The opposition parties did not come to the committee to make contributions; they came running and chasing one person, ``Pay back the money’’. Let’s come back to that.
We, as the committee, regarded all the reports as important. They said no, no, no, this report – from the Special Investigating Unit, SIU - is not important. You know what? The Public Protector referred certain matters to - they even forgot that – the SIU but they said no, no, no, we are not regarding the SIU report. What is this? Hypocrisy and an obsession with President Zuma! [Applause.] We cannot as Parliament be here and relegate our duties. We need to make sure that we are doing what is expected of us. [Interjections.] That’s why you are screaming. Let me tell you - because your caucus is in tatters - you have lost leadership confidence, that’s why you have some of your members lobbying for Kohler-Barnard and Maynier to lead. It’s because of this thing. We’ll tell you. [Applause.]
It would have been a derogation of duties if the ad hoc committee advanced certain Members of Parliament’s personal vendettas against the President, instead of comprehensively scrutinising the reports to enable Parliament to arrive at specific sets of recommendations which are before us. We have given the executive three months to respond to those. Before they walked out they made some comments. They were saying to us that we should call witnesses to deal with that. We said to them - they failed to even answer one question - okay, when we call witnesses, when anyone arrives before us and tables material evidence that is going to change the report of the Public Protector, what are we going to do? They ran away even before answering that question. [Applause.]
This is the type of opposition we have that can’t constructively make input into a process. They run away from debates and grandstand. The reason that they delayed the House today is because they know that there are no flaws in this report that is before the House. We have been meticulous. We’ve made sure that we closed the gaps and we understand what is happening. They know that their advisors had advised them that even when they go to court, they’re going to lose. That’s why they did not want the House to adopt the report today. We must never be fooled. [Applause.]
Let me talk about the issue that hon Maimane raised - our journey of accountability. I think you will start with the hon Zille and make sure that all those reports of the Public Protector are implemented in the DA-led municipalities before you make noise.
Secondly, you spoke about Protea North. Fortunately, I don’t visit Protea, I stay in Protea. The ANC government says that that area is dolomitic. That’s why those people were moved to Lufhereng. Because you don’t stay there, you don’t know. They are being migrated - that’s where I stay. I don’t talk about something that I don’t know. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu: Mam’uKhawula, okubuhlungu mama wami ukuthi uwumuntu omdala futhi kufanele ngikuphendule. Kodwa ubuhlanga obungaka mama! Uzoma la phambi kwethu ukhulume kanje! Hhayi bo!
English:
You were so tribal; you were so regionalist! Hhayi bo! In this current democracy ...
IsiZulu:
... asisakudingi lokho! Sikhuluma njengezwe elilodwa; asisakhulumi ngokuthi ngoba ngingowakwaZulu, ngingowakwabani! Ayisenziwa leyo nto! Njengomhlonishwa mama! Hhayi bo! khuzeka!
English:
Hon Singh, you spoke about the issue of the nonsecurity upgrade. If you went through the report, you would understand that that report covers those issues. The problem is that you’re rejecting something you have not even read, hon members. If you had taken the time to read that report, we have answered all those questions. [Interjections.] On the issue of the nonsecurity upgrade, we’re saying that in light of what the Public Protector has said. It is not what we’ve derived ourselves. The Public Protector in her report says what the SAPS should do, because she understands that these are the people who can do security assessments. We have affirmed to say that they can go and do the assessment, and tell us if there’s anything that is nonsecurity and report to Parliament. What are you talking about? [Interjections.]
The other issue that I want to talk about, is that they - hon members and even Maimane - say that they don’t recognise the report, but he went and asked for the report when we were still processing it. [Laughter.] He asked for it. He wrote a letter to the chairperson, saying that he is rightfully a member of the committee, and therefore deserves the report. If you don’t recognise the work of that committee and you don’t recognise the report, why are you asking for it? You can see that hypocrisy and obsession with President Zuma. [Applause.]
Hon Mulder, I didn’t know that you liked me so much. That journalist misled you. There was no painting, but, anyway, I’m happy that you’ve got my picture in your office and it’s even laminated! [Laughter.] Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.][Interjections.]
Debate concluded.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Ms M T KUBAYI
.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move that the Report be adopted.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I would like to move an amendment to the report please. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is the amendment? Yes, proceed, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I move that the report be amended as follows: That we delete everything after the word ``as follows’’ on page 1 and substitute the deleted text with this document entitled Nkandla: The real story — background findings. I undertake to table this document. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Amendment put.
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, I am not sure how we can object or agree to amendments whose content we do not know. How do we deal with that? It is not a paragraph; it is a document. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, allow me to put it to the House for a decision.
Question put: That the amendment as moved by the Chief Whip of the Opposition be agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, the DA would like to make a declaration.
DECLARATIONS OF VOTE
Declarations of vote:
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: You know, I am amazed that a report that was written before the ad hoc committee even convened is being considered today. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s listen to the member.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: They sent the hon Dlakude and hon Kubayi to come there and paint their nails. My proposal is that their next colour must be a whitewash because that is what this report is. [Interjections.]
However, what is more critical is that, in fact, the secretary-general of the ANC made an important call after the NEC of the ANC. He simply said the following words: Go to Parliament and defend President Zuma and the Deputy President. [Interjections.]
This report has done nothing except do exactly that: defend the President.
So, hon members, I am of the view that it was written way before that. Even hon Motshekga did not argue in support and give any more evidence and, in fact, he conflated the Public Protector. [Interjections.]
The simple conclusions are as follows: A crime took place, and for any crime to take place there must be a person who commits the crime. [Interjections.] The victims in this instance are the people of this country whose money was stolen. [Interjections.] The true criminal in this place is Number One at Nkandla. The true accomplices, though ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... the true supporters of the crime are the members who were deployed to the committee to say ``Support the crime that is taking place’’. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: The true accomplices are those who will vote in support of this offence. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon Maimane!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: They are accomplices to the crime and they are going to support the report. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, do you see what you did? You literally refused to acknowledge me when I addressed you. [Interjections.] You looked at me while you were speaking, and you heard me. [Interjections.] Listen, hon member, be honest. When you do that... you called the President a criminal, but you did not move a substantive motion. You must move a substantive motion to do that. You know what you did is out of order. I ask you to withdraw what you said, hon member. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, it is a tough moment in our country.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I don’t know what to call it when the Public Protector says that someone tacitly agreed and unduly benefited. What do I call that person? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member, withdraw your remarks.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: How do I say money was stolen? [Interjections.] Who stole the money? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are defying me and this is the second time. I have no authority over you, and I now name you, hon Maimane. I now name you, sir.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: What does that ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, hon members, I now put the motion presented by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Deputy Speaker! We are making declarations.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Yes. Who is next in making a declaration? Go ahead.
Mr G A GARDEE
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter remains that the Public Protector has made a finding that the President unduly benefited from the security upgrades at his house. The President is tacitly denying that he unduly benefited. The President introduced the architect to the team of Public Works, tacitly telling them not to go through the public procurement process to secure a consultant; that he had a consultant. [Interjections.]
The President is in breach of his constitutional obligation to maintain a fair and transparent procurement process. He confirms that he did request that his kraal of cattle be moved from point A to point B. He does not want to pay for that R1 million kraal. The President said that he is not liable and is not financially accountable and did not ask for the kraal to be moved from where it was to wherever it is. Yet he is then still quoted as having said so by the Public Protector. That makes that particular person who says so nothing but corrupt and a thief. Money was stolen there. The President is telling the nation that there is no money stolen and that he did not benefit. He is lying. Unless he wants to tell us that he is a thief, he must pay the money back. That is our declaration.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You too, hon member, are not allowed to say that without a substantive motion before the House. Withdraw that, hon member. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, there is a substantive debate on issues regarding the President. So there is no need for any supplementary motions or substantive motions here. We live with it that money was stolen at Nkandla. [Interjections.] The President is saying that he did not benefit when it is actually so. So, the President is making himself liable to be called as such. There is nothing to withdraw here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you too have defied me. I am going to come back to you just now. [Interjections.] Hon members, I am in the Chair, and for now I have authority to act in a manner that I consider appropriate. What are you rising on, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I am rising to get clarity from you. The reason why a substantive motion is required in the House is that there is a notice period for debate and you have to put the allegations, etc. What we are dealing with in the House today is a report into the President’s conduct, and I would submit to you that it is already a substantive item before the House and, therefore, a substantive motion is not required. We can discuss and reflect on the behaviour of the President. [Interjections].
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What Rule is that, hon member? Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, with due respect, I think the Chief Whip of the Opposition is wrong. We are not debating the conduct of the President. We are debating the report on the security upgrades at the private residence of the President. Not the President.
Mr G A GARDEE: A point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, let me speak to the Chief Whip of the Opposition. Yes, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am saying it is in terms of the Rules of debate, Deputy Speaker. The conduct of the President is the subject of the Public Protector’s findings, which are contained in the report which was grappled with by... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, do not be offensive and hide behind what you call the rules of debate. Even in debate you do not become indecent in your language. You do not become out of order on how you refer to members, as you know from the Rules. By doing so, you are suggesting that this is the language that the members can use in this House. This is not what you want. Is that what you want, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, Deputy Speaker, but then a ruling must be made in terms of Item 63.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, the hon member has made a big mistake and I said that I will come back to that because we will have to rule on it. You are not going to instruct me on what to do, hon members. Can you behave, please? [Interjections.] Just for a change, behave. [Interjections.] Just for a change; just behave. [Interjections.]
Hon members, I have now... [Interjections.]
I will give you a chance before we proceed. I must make this... Maybe I shouldn’t. Let me withdraw that. I will make it towards the end, yes. [Interjections.] I don’t know, hon member. The next declaration?
Dr C P MULDER
Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker, let’s get some calm in the House. What is this about? What is this about? The President became President. A decision was taken to take measures to protect the hon President. It was supposed to cost R27 million.
Six months later, it became clear to the media that we were not talking about R27 million, we were talking about R65 million. That was in December 2009! That was brought to the attention of South Africa. What did the government do to take note of that reality? Nothing. Three years later! Three years later, the Minister of Public Works took some steps to investigate. And what happened in the meantime? It escalated to R246 million of taxpayers’ money.
Now the essence that is being suggested is that the hon President was completely unaware of what was going on. He didn’t know, he didn’t say or complain about anything. People came to his house, spent that amount of taxpayers’ money on his property and now he is completely surprised! Oh my goodness, what happened?
The Public Protector tried to find the truth. She asked of the hon President 27 questions! Until today, he has ignored 18 of those questions! Who undermined the Public Protector? [Interjections.] Who undermined the Constitution? Who did that? The President made the Public Protector wait nine months before his answer, which was a non-answer. That’s the reality, hon Deputy Speaker. That is the reality.
So, the problem is that the President tacitly accepted the implementation of all these measures, and I can understand that it’s the duty of ruling parties’ members to protect the President under all circumstances. I can understand that. [Interjections.] But is that right? Is that in line with the oath that we all swore to uphold the Constitution? Is that in line with that?
You know what the most senior member of Public Works in charge of finances said? He was pleading for a further R130 million. He said: ``Note that failure to assist in the financial side of this project will result in all of us failing the principal, which will not be accepted lightly by the powers that be.’’
In conclusion, maybe we should take note of what Professor K A Busia from Ghana wrote about democracy. He said the following:
Democracy in the last analysis depends on the character of individual men and women and the moral standards of the community. Rules governing elections may be made, freedoms may be provided in constitutions, and Bills of Rights may be passed, but they will make it difficult for arbitrary acts to exist. But they will not by themselves secure democracy. There are unwritten rules such as honesty, integrity, restraint and respect for democratic procedures.
That is what is you’re all lacking today. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH
Dr C P MULDER
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think, we, as the IFP, have made our position abundantly clear during the debate. We will not support the report that is tabled before us by the ad hoc committee.
I don’t think, we, in this House, should and can accept that the hon President has not benefited from value added to his private house in some form or the other. Even if it is 50 cents, value has been added. What we are looking for – and we are making an impassioned plea, hon Deputy Speaker - is that the President rises above what his members are going to do here. Be a statesman, lead by example, make sure that we do not undermine a Chapter 9 institution like the Public Protector. [Interjections.] If the President undermines that institution, then we are going to find that any other body she makes a finding against is also going to undermine her authority.
Hon Deputy Speaker, members of the ANC, get your President to pay even R50 towards value added because then you would be saying to the country: I accept responsibility; I am leading by example in this regard. [Interjections.]
So calculations can be done, but accept the principle. Mr President, we know you are in Nigeria or somewhere else, but you will get the message. Do take this honourable step of agreeing to the principle of paying something towards value that has been added to your private residence. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA
Mr N SINGH
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Deputy Speaker, if the President disagrees with the finding and remedial actions of the Public Protector, the law allows him to approach the court for a judicial review but instead of exercising his right, as we all know, the President chose to undermine the Office of the Public Protector, a Chapter 9 institution, ... [Interjections.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a member on the floor. There is a member on the floor.
Mr B H HOLOMISA: ... by equating it with other committees and institutions which do not have the same status as those created by the Constitution.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I want you to please control the howlers on this side; we can’t hear what’s being said. Please call them to order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members! Proceed, hon Holomisa.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu B HOLOMISA: Njengokuba sekucacile ke ukuba le nto sithetha ngayo apha ...
English:
Mr S LUZIPO: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. I sit this side and I have got every respect for this House. I can’t - as one of the people who sit on this side - be told that I am a howler. [Interjections.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Well, hon Deputy Speaker, if the shoe fits – I mean ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, you are out of order.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu B HOLOMISA: Inyani wena Sekela Somlomo yeyokuba into ebefanele ukuba ngoku sixoxa ngayo kweli lizwe ayingomanyundululu akhoyo angqonge uBumongameli koko njengokuba kunzima kwaye siyibona imeko ukuba ayintlanga, bekufanele ukuba ngoku sixoxa indlela yokuphuma, exit strategy, kaMongameli Zuma qha kuphela! Ngaphandleni koko, sichitha nje ixesha lethu. Ndiyabulela. [Kwahlekwa.] [Kwaqhwatywa.]
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. I think the hon member of the IFP must withdraw. She can’t call us howlers; we are honourable Members of Parliament. She really must withdraw that. She can’t address us as howlers. We are honourable Members of Parliament.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, may I rise on a point of order?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order is that hon Khawula stood up here and complained about a ``blondie’’ that side, and she was made to withdraw calling someone a ``blondie’’. And another hon member of the IFP is complaining about the same side, and they are saying they are not howlers. [Interjections.] They are! Can you please tell them not to continue doing what they are doing? [Interjections.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I will call them hon howlers then. [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
Mnu S LUZIPO: Ungabothi uma ulethwe ubaba wakho la bese uzosiphaphela wena! Savotelwa thina asizange silethwe obaba bethu la!
[Interjections.]
English:
Mr S LUZIPO: Point of order, Deputy Speaker. I agree and I accept that if the hon member is not comfortable that there are people who are making a noise and making it impossible to listen here, she has a right to raise a point of order. What I cannot agree with is that she paints everybody on this side as ``howlers’’, and continues to say that they are ``hon howlers’’ and that she is not going to withdraw that. If she says the shoe fits, then we must not allow her the right to say so and not be able to say the same thing back to her.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: I want to apologise to that member. I referred to those members. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I request you to do so unconditionally, and I am going to appeal to the hon members to please be in order; we have to listen to each other.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, I withdraw, but I think the members are ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! No!
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: I really don’t see what’s wrong with the word ``howlers’’. It means a person that makes a noise, and that’s exactly what they are. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are you withdrawing, hon member?
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: I withdraw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.
Mr N T GODI: Hon Deputy Speaker, as I indicated ...
Mr M HLENGWA: Point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr M HLENGWA: Mr Deputy Speaker, you have made a ruling that the hon Van der Merwe withdraw. What I cannot then accept is for these members to say ``lo mlungu’’ [this white woman]. They must then withdraw that. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hayi, hayi, hayi! [Interjections.] Hon members, when you rise on that kind of point of order, it is always useful to tell us who said so, so that we can confront that person to withdraw immediately. Hon members, let’s not use language that is going to be problematic in the House. [Interjections.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the issue is the hon members are acting en bloc.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I want to rule, hon member ...
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I would plead with you that you ask the hon members to do the honourable thing and own up. They must act like adults. If they want to own what they said, let them do it. [Interjections.] Because this thing of being selective ... hon Kubayi was on that podium talking about tribalism, and we all agree with her. So we can’t allow it then to be extended. [Interjections.] The members must act like adults. Own up! If you are man enough, own up.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Deputy Speaker, can I address you? If there is any member this side who addressed the hon member of the IFP as ``lo mlungu’’, on behalf of the member, I withdraw.
Ms D KOHLER: Deputy Speaker, I would like to bring to your attention that I have watched Minister Zulu very clearly – she came back from outside the hall. She has been sitting here yelling that word over and over and over repeatedly at the member of the IFP. [Interjections.] I’ve watched her very clearly and I would indeed ask that that be withdrawn, personally, from the Minister.
Mr M S MBATHA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker. Can I advise you to speak to the hon member, the Deputy Minister, to withdraw her withdrawal because there is no member of a member here. A person must say, ``I did this. I apologise.’’ She can’t speak for members. There is no member of a member here. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I am going to rule on this matter. I suggest that we proceed. I am going to rule on this matter soon. [Interjections.]
Mr N T GODI: So, can I proceed?
IsiZulu:
Mnu M S MBATHA: Owu! Kukhona othi “voetsek”.
Iphini LIKASOMLOMO/USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngubani loyo manje otsho kanjalo? Hayi, hayi, hayi!
English:
You can’t say that. Hon members, you can’t deteriorate that way. Who said that now? [Interjections.]
Hon Mbatha, take your seat. I am going to come back with a ruling.
Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I am told it is Hadebe. I have no idea who Hadebe is. I am told it is Hadebe. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members. [Interjections.] I am going to come back with a ruling on this matter, including on what you are saying.
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker, we are also as capable. So, they shouldn’t start. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Godi?
Mr N T GODI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. As I was saying at the beginning: the challenge that one has is the fact that, with regard to the amendments presented, we haven’t gone through the contents. And, if one were to agree, one would be agreeing with something that one has not seen or even gone through. But, I suppose, that those amendments will not be substantively different from what the members have said in the long debate that we have had, which I do not agree with at all. What is very clear today is that there has been a fear to deal with this report. I think these amendments are also part of those delaying tactics.
You know, hon Deputy Speaker, if you play the man and not the ball in a soccer game, you get a yellow card or a red card. [Interjections.] But what is clear is that in bourgeois politics, playing the man is not only allowed but is actually the norm. If you were to listen to the right-wingers, you would think that the report of the Public Protector is actually a single paragraph - a single paragraph that talks about payment for nonsecurity upgrades without any substance in it.
I think any amendment that seeks to reduce that report to a single paragraph will certainly be misleading, which actually is part of the central arsenal of the right-wingers. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Deputy Speaker, I don’t like doing this because it is wasting time. But when the hon Mbatha sat down after talking, he raised a middle finger towards us on this side. [Interjections.] That is completely unacceptable. I just want to raise that. I saw that.
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Deputy Speaker, what I did was say to the hon Sibongile Khawula: ``The next thing they will do this.’’ [Interjections.] That was a private discussion between me and Sibongile, and an example of the hate that we have been subjected to. So why must ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please withdraw that.
Mr M S MBATHA: Sibongile, I withdraw.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Mr N T GODI
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the NFP is steadfast on its policy of zero tolerance of corruption. That is the mandate of the citizens of our country who voted for us and who we represent.
The NFP also resolutely maintains that the report of the Public Protector and all other reports must be honoured and respected. To this effect, the NFP wishes to congratulate all those that participated in producing these reports. Based on our express policy guidelines, the NFP reiterates that all those that unduly benefited must be held accountable and repay the monies to the fiscus.
The NFP will support any attempt to bring to account any person or persons who have unduly benefited from the Nkandla upgrades, and welcomes the initiative to identify which aspect of the upgrade is part of the security upgrade and which is not. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Deputy Speaker, one of the principles in our Constitution is that everybody is equal before the law. Many of us spent years of our lives struggling for equality before the law. Today we have a Constitution that says: We must be equal before the law. [Interjections.]
The President, leading a Cabinet that brought before us a budget ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: ... a budget that we approved ... I appeal for your protection.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon members ...
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, I appeal for your protection. I want to make my point. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Make your point. [Interjections.] Hon members, allow the hon Lekota to speak. Speak, hon member.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, just as we succeeded in writing a Constitution that enshrines equality before the law, we must now ensure that we have a government that can enforce that. [Interjections.] Part of the duty of this House is to monitor that the executive carry out its activities, loyal to the principle of equality before the law. [Interjections.]
I have detailed, on behalf of our party, how much money we voted for to address the needs of our people. I have pointed out – and nobody has contested what I said – that the millions we voted for for communities were diverted to Nkandla. Nobody has contested that. [Interjections.]
On the basis of that, I appeal to the House that we ensure, if we want to have a future in this country, that everybody is bound by the law of this land. If that does not happen, starting with this House, there will be no Parliament left. There will be no institutions that will guarantee a future for our children and generations to come. We insist therefore that we collectively hold the President accountable. He must pay the money of the people. He must ensure that he is equal to all of us. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Declarations (contd)
Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, I am very sorry that I disappointed the hon Motshekga.
But I still stand by what I said earlier, and that is, Deputy Speaker: Here is the report and I asked hon members to read the report. If you read it carefully, you will see here on page 2946, that is why the ACDP supports the minority report because it says: the committee holds a different view to the Public Protector but there is no view to that. There is no view set out here! There is no rational reasoning to that view, and I plead with the ANC again to look at this report because it doesn’t contain rational reasoning that would stand up in a court of law. That is the first point.
The second point, Deputy Speaker, when the ACDP was participating in the ad hoc committee, we pleaded with the ANC to get an independent legal opinion. [Interjections.] We see the committee report refers an in-house legal opinion that the committee agrees with; why didn’t we get an outside legal opinion as to the binding nature of the Public Protector’s report?
So, again Deputy Speaker, we from the ACDP will support the minority report and would remind the ANC what the hon Malema said: That he was deployed by the ANC to close the Scorpions, and that you are doing the same thing to the Public Protector, and we support that view. So, we call upon and support the minority report. I thank you. [Applause.]
THE MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Swart, you know nothing about the ANC. You must never refer to the ANC as if you know the ANC. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Point of order, Deputy Speaker! We are calling for order!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The order is ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! I am not able to say anything! You are screaming at me; I can’t even say anything! [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: I am calling for order!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order is: Could you please make a ruling as to whether it is correct for hon Mbalula to address the House and the hon member without being recognised by you? Can you make a ruling? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! Hon Gardee, take your seat. I am ruling. Just as I have told you not to speak before you are addressed, it is the same thing with him. [Interjections.] No member is allowed to speak before they are recognised. I want to remind you, hon Gardee, that it is the fourth time that you are doing this. Yes!
THE DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, as members ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order. With respect, Deputy Speaker, you can’t just chastise members on this side of the House for bad behaviour. The hon Mr Mbalula needs to apologise. You need to chastise him. [Interjections.] You have chastised us all day, and you need to be consistent. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, proceed ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: No! No, Deputy Speaker, no, no, don’t be biased. Mbalula spoke without your consent. Please correct that ... [Interjections.]
Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I told him, and you are out of order, hon members. Both of you are out of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Can you please be consistent, Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, members are honourable here, whatever you think of them. I did say that that hon member is out of order, just like the hon Gardee is. [Interjections.] It’s wrong! It’s wrong! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Chair! Chair! [Interjections.]
Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, I think it is unbecoming behaviour that, all the time, when the members of the opposition talk, you see them as the people in the wrong. But when the members of the ruling party talk, you keep quiet as if nothing has happened. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no. [Interjections.]
Mr N P KHOZA: So, this is incorrect! From the manner in which you are ruling in this House, it is clear that you have an agenda that you want to pursue, and we are not going to allow that. We must all be treated equally. Hon Mbalula stood up and you did not tell him to withdraw. You must tell him to withdraw, like you are doing to other members! [Interjections.]
Hon MEMBERS! Withdraw! Withdraw!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I do advise you - for what its worth - that you must allow the Chair to make the rulings. Because not only is nothing gained in the first place – I want to talk about this overall issue that you raised earlier on, including this one - but nothing is gained by using unbecoming and offensive language. I am appealing to all members of this House on all sides of the House to uphold the dignity and the decorum expected of the representatives of the people.
Your actions and language today in this debate have done little to lift the tone of the debate and provide a meaningful opportunity for members to engage with the matter at hand without bad language. I am cautioning members to desist from this abuse of the decorum of the House and the privilege of freedom of speech. You are placing the Chair in an untenable position. I am expected to rule on matters that I have not heard and have not been party to. All members are honourable as such, and should behave in a manner befitting an honourable member and call each other as such. Members should treat one another with the dignity and respect that they themselves would expect in this House.
We now move to the next declaration.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
As members of the ad hoc committee we acknowledge the fact that we are not security experts. That is why we recommended in our report that the Minister of Police must assign professional security experts to go and assess what is a security feature and what is not a security feature at Nkandla. So, we are not obsessed with the President. That is why we made sound recommendations and findings in our report.
The second point that I want to make is that the hon opposition members, led by the EFF – because now I can see that the DA doesn’t have a parliamentary leader [Interjections.] So, they rely on the mercy of the EFF to lead them. That is why they are leading - walked out of the committee, willingly so, because they chose to ignore the truth; and chose to believe their distorted facts. [Interjections.]
So, as members of the ad hoc committee, we went to that committee to deal with the facts. They knew that there was nothing to pin on the President in that report. That is why they continue to mislead the House and the public. There is nothing to pin on the President! He did not do anything wrong. [Interjections.] The facts are in all the reports.
Deputy Speaker, my third point is that as members of this House ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The hon member is making a declaration which is actually misleading the House that the President did not know anything about what was happening in his house. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order. Hon member! [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: The President knew that he was benefiting unduly. It’s a pity ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, hon member! Yes, hon member? What are you rising on?
Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. The hon Dlakude has just said – referring to hon Members of Parliament who were also members of the ad hoc committee – that they were misleading Parliament and the public. She deliberately said that, and it is unparliamentary and she should withdraw that.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I withdraw. I withdraw the word ``misleading’’.
Lastly, allow me to say that we reject the report compiled and concocted by a group of angry, obsessed Members of Parliament who compiled it in some dark corners. [Interjections.] We reject the report and the amendment with the contempt it deserves. [Interjections.]
Finally, some hon members on that side are offering me cheap Cutex. Unfortunately, I am allergic to Cutex. I don’t use it. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I now put the question. The question is that the amendment as moved by the Chief Whip of the Opposition be agreed to.
Question put: That the amendment as moved by the Chief Whip of the Opposition be agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
Hon MEMBERS: [Singing.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.
Hon MEMBERS: [Singing.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker!
Hon MEMBERS: [Singing.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The mace is still in place; we are in session. Is this permitted parliamentary behaviour? [Interjections.]
Hon MEMBERS: [Singing.]
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Hon members, you are not supposed to sing. [Interjections.] You are not supposed to sing; you can’t sing. Please don’t do that! The session is on. [Interjections.] Hon members, the session is on!
[Take in from Minutes.]
Question not agreed to.
Amendment accordingly negatived.
Question put: That the motion moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, it seems too close to call. The DA would like to call for a division.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we will now break for 45 minutes for refreshments. Bells will be rung for members to come back to the Chamber to resume business.
Members may go to the second floor restaurants to get food there.
Business suspended at 20:55 and resumed at 21:45.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please be seated. Order, hon members! I have been informed that the Whips have agreed that precedence be given to Order 39 on the Order Paper, immediately after Order No 1.
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Chair, I am part of the Whippery and I attend the Chief Whips’ Forum. The EFF has not been consulted and, even if we were consulted, we would object. Yesterday, we went through a very painful moment at the Chief Whips’ Forum. The same thing happened this morning in the programming committee and again, here, in the House.
We also had to spend almost an hour dealing with the issue of the programme, and it can’t be arbitrarily changed like that. We must follow the programme as it is. We are going to the consideration of the Budget Review and Recommendation Reports, 38 of them, and the EFF refuses to be cajouled into agreement. It is a constitutional crisis that you are creating now, Chairperson, because that is what we agreed upon.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. There is no constitutional crisis. Take your seat, please.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will recognise you. [Interjections.] I haven’t recognised you yet. I’ve called upon the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, we consulted the EFF Plus, and we have consulted all other parties. We have come to an agreement that we start with item 39. We are not disagreeing on all other items; we are saying we will start with item 39, because there is a debate, and then we can deal with all other items thereafter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): And you are saying there was consultation with the EFF?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We did, yes.
Mr G A GARDEE: I rise on a point of order, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: I am on record as saying that we have not been consulted and, even if we were consulted, if there was any attempt, we were going to refuse because this House agreed - when the Speaker, hon Mbete, was seated there - how we are going to proceed, and it can’t change now. It can’t. It can’t. That is very wrong. We are setting a wrong precedent, Chairperson. It can’t be allowed. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): I rise on a point of order
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Chairperson, all that needs to happen is a motion needs to be moved under 97(c) for precedence to be given to Item 39, and if the EFF is in disagreement, we can vote and we can proceed.
Mr G A GARDEE: Point of order, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: That attempt was made and that advice was made in the programming committee, and it was flatly rejected, because it is not applicable to the order of precedence in the House. We have been here since two o’clock when this agenda and Order Paper was discussed, and it cannot be that it must be changed after all this rigorous activity we have been involved in.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Can the hon member read his Rules. It is perfectly legitimate, and I would suggest that if the EFF does not agree, that is what needs to be done.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Steenhuisen, were there discussions with the largest opposition party on this matter?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, hon House Chair, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party did consult with me. We agreed to move the Order up because apparently there is a sense of urgency around it, because there are some conclusions and signing of deals that need to be concluded in the next week or two. That is why precedence had to be given.
My understanding was that it was a round robin among all the Whips, and that some consensus had been reached. So, what I’m hearing now is something different.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, it seems to me that there was a discussion that took place and, unfortunately, from where I’m sitting, I was not part of the consultation that takes place among the different Chief Whips. The items on the Order Paper, of course, remain, and I will give an opportunity to the Chief Whip of the Majority Party - if there is a motion that he wants to raise - to do so, so that the House can decide on it. I will recognise you now, hon Gardee.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move, in line with Rule 97(c), that precedence be given to Order 39 on the Order Paper, and all else will follow.
Mr G A GARDEE: The Rule the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has referred to does not provide for this quagmire we find ourselves in, whereby we want to willy nilly change the order of precedence. It does not, Chairperson, and, as such, it should be rejected. It can’t be.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has now formally put the motion to the House. So, I’m going to put the question, and ask whether there are any objections to the motion from the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. If there are no objections then we will proceed ...
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Mr G A GARDEE: The issue of motions without notice has long been dealt with. The hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party is raising a motion without notice in terms of this Rule. It is not applicable at this hour for precedence of the order. It should have been dealt with at the beginning of the House sitting. Accordingly, it is frivolous and very convenient for him to raise it as such. It is unconstitutional, and it contravenes the Rules of the National Assembly. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! You have made your point.
Mr G A GARDEE: We have committed ourselves to live by the Rules of the Assembly. We will be here until four o’clock. What is the problem?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You have made your point. Hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon House Chair, may I make a suggestion? Perhaps the Chief Whips of the parties could retire for five minutes, just to have a discussion on this matter so we can try and find some consensus on it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we would have thought that that was done. Also, I’m going to ask hon members to co-operate so that we can get on with the business that is still on the Order Paper - all of it that is there. There is a sense of urgency - as correctly pointed out by the hon Steenhuisen - in terms of the treaty that the Republic and the Democtatic Republic of Congo must sign in terms of the business that needs to be concluded, and it is a constitutional matter.
So, can I really ask for the co-operation of members, instead of prolonging this discussion further? Hon Litchfield-Tshabalala. [Interjections.] I have not recognised you. I’ve recognised hon Litchfield-Tshabalala.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Hon Chair, I rise on a point of clarity. I’m trying to understand: If all the items on the agenda will be dealt with today, how will the next debate affect next week’s finalization of the treaty if it is dealt with at 12 midnight tonight or now? Just clarify; it does not make sense.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the motion has been put to the House and I’m going to ask the question again. Are there any objections? [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Chair, the motion is illegal in that it does not have to be done now. It should have been done earlier, when it was actually dealt with and we had a serious commotion here because of such a motion.
Accordingly, you cannot steam roll over us. The suggestion that the Chief Whips should now retire for a caucus, I think, makes sense, so the Chairperson can only suspend the House for another 15 minutes and then we confer there. [Interjections.] Failing which, what you are trying to do in this House is unconstitutional, and we stand resolute that it can’t happen.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I’ve indulged this point for a long time. In terms of the Rules, it is correct that a motion like that can be put and the Chief Whip of the Majority Party is doing it in consultation and with the indulgence of the Chairperson. I will apply my discretion. I will ask the question again: Are there any objections to the motion? The motion is put to the House now.
HON MEMBERS: No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There are no objections. We will then proceed with the item.
Mr G A GARDEE: We said there was an objection.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are you raising your objection?
Mr G A GARDEE: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): If you are raising an objection, then I will put the question to the House.
Mr G A GARDEE: You can put the question to the House, but the objection remains. [Interjections.] Accordingly, you will have to call for a division of the House and declarations, and then we move on.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): It’s fine. Hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, please may I ask - before we move to the brink on this matter - that we have the indulgence to just have a quick three-to-five-minute consultation at the back of the Chamber. The problem is that it is going to be a motion without notice, which means that if there is a single objection it falls away. I really think the consultation will be helpful. Please indulge us. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please wait, hon Jeffery. The hon Deputy Minister of Basic Education rose before you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF THE BASIC EDUCATION: The position, with respect, is that in terms of the Rules a motion of this nature can be put. That is the first. Secondly, the hon Chair has the discretion to entertain it. Thirdly, if there is any objection to it, it should be determined whether there is substance to the objection, whether it is frivolous or whether there would be any prejudice. If there is broad consensus, then indeed we could amend and there would be no prejudice or harm or discomfort to anybody. The hon Chair can put it to the House and the House could make the determination. The House has the right and authority to suspend, change, vary or alter any of its orders at any time at its pleasure. Thank you, hon Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): Chair, I would suggest that the hon Steenhuisen read his Rules. This is a motion under Rule 97(c). It is not a motion under Rule 97(g), which requires the unanimous consent of the House. This motion, under (c), does not require the unanimous consent of the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, let us proceed. I have put the motion to the House. I have applied my mind to the matter and, in terms of the broader consultation that was done, it is really unfortunate that the issue was not discussed or was not brought to the attention of the EFF, so that we can proceed with the matter at hand. We will proceed with the matter at hand. [Interjections.]
Hon members, I have given you sufficient time to raise your concerns, right? What is happening now is that, unless it is something new that you want to bring to my attention – unless it is something new - we are going to proceed with the Order in terms of the item that has been brought up on the Order Paper.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, the hon member there – apparently he’s a Minister, or rather, a Deputy Minister of Justice – should know the law better. Motions without notice, once they are objected to, fall away. He cannot read selectively. [Interjections.] He must read that this is a motion in terms of Rule 97. The suggestion by the Chief Whip of the Opposition is very much in order. We need to suspend the House and confer for the minutes that are needed for conferring. Most probably, we will come back with consensus. It can’t be that it can be steamrolled.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, are you just saying now that we must suspend the House for the sake of suspending, and you will come back anyway and agree to it? Is that what you are saying?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, I’m saying that we need to go and discuss! We are not junior partners in this House ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Take your seat now. [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, you are the last speaker on this, and then I’m going to put the question, formally, to the House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES responsible for Justice and Constitutional Development (Mr J H Jeffrey): All right, Chairperson. Just for the benefit of the hon member - and I don’t think there was any need to go for personal insults – he should read his Rules. Motions without notice under Rule 97(g) require unanimous consent, but this is not a motion under Rule 97(g). It’s a motion under Rule 97(c), which does not require unanimous consent. So, please read your Rules. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: Chairperson, first of all, we, as the EFF, said we were not consulted. The Chief Whip of the Majority Party goes the extra mile by lying to this House by saying he consulted us.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you withdraw those remarks? [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: All right. Secondly ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you withdraw the remark that the Chief Whip is ...
Ms H O MAXON: The hon Tshabalala stood up ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Ms H O MAXON: ... and wanted clarification on ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Ms H O MAXON: ... if we are changing the agenda.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Will you withdraw the remark?
Ms H O MAXON: And then you failed. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Ms H O MAXON: Thirdly, the Chief Whip of the Opposition ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, for the second time now, will you withdraw the remark that the Chief Whip is lying?
Ms H O MAXON: The Chief Whip of the Majority Party misled the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! Withdraw the remark that the Chief Whip is lying.
Ms H O MAXON: The Chief Whip of the Majority Party is not lying, but he misled the House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Unconditionally withdraw the remark, hon member.
Ms H O MAXON: All right, I withdraw. I’ve got nothing to lose.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
Ms H O MAXON: All right, let me continue. I have not finished yet.
I am saying, first of all, he misled the House and undermined the EFF by saying he consulted us, which he did not do.
Secondly, the hon Litchfield-Tshabalala stood up here and asked if the agenda of today had changed. You failed to answer her.
Thirdly, the Chief Whip of the Opposition has a proposal that we should meet for three to five minutes. Now, you want to throw the book of Rules at us. It’s unfair! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, you know, your intervention on this matter has lasted almost 20 minutes, now. [Interjections.] It’s lasted for 20 minutes, and, really ... [Interjections.] All right.
What we will do, hon members, is we will allow, upon the request of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, that you consult, just for two minutes. We ask the hon members not to leave the House. The Chief Whip has requested it. I will agree to it so that you can consult and come back with an agreement – just for two minutes. The bells will be rung in two minutes’ time. Can we do that, please? Thank you very much.
Business suspended at 22:01 and resumed at 22:14.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I recognize the Chief Whip, who will inform us of the outcome of the discussions.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, we have consulted all of those who were present, except for the hon Gardee of the EFF Plus, who rejects our proposal, but we collectively agreed that if they are unreasonable, as they would have been out of that meeting, you can put the matter to the vote.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chair, I refer us to Rule 97(c) - I move - about the postponement or discharge of or giving precedence to an Order of the Day, and my suggestion is that we deal with the report on Inga and that we postpone all other matters until next week, at a time when the Chief Whips’ Forum and the Programming Committee decide when those items should be debated. This is on the understanding, sir, that the report on the Powers, Privileges and Immunities Committee will be dealt with on Thursday next week. [Interjections.] If that is in order, then that is our proposal to the House. Thank you.
So, we suspend the Budget Review and Recommendations Reports, BRRR, and we suspend everything else, except for the Inga Report, tonight, and we decide on the programme for next week, but, on the tacit understanding – and, Chair, with your permission, I would like parties to speak to it – that we deal with the report of the Powers, Privileges and Immunities Committee on Thursday next week. That’s my proposal to the House, and my resolution. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson of the House, notwithstanding the illegality of the improper quotation of the Rule, which does not apply ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr G A GARDEE: ... to what we are doing, because section 97(c) cannot be read in isolation from the actual totality of Rule 97. We will concede; so be it. We continue with the proceedings, as proposed by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, the DA is in concurrence with that, provided that the EFF’s involvement in the BRRR next week is assured.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I’m not going to run a programming committee meeting from the Chair, but thank you for those inputs. I will request the hon Chief Whip to convene a discussion in the Chief Whips’ Forum that must be moved forward to Tuesday, so that you can finalise the programme for next week.
Hon Chief Whips, for this House to function effectively, we need the co-operation of everyone that’s involved. It places the presiding officers in a very, very difficult position, unless there is agreement that is reached or sufficient consensus that is achieved before it comes to the House. We come to the House with the understanding that there is agreement on the programme in front of us.
Mr F Z MAJOLA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT - TREATY ON THE GRAND INGA HYDROPOWER PROJECT BETWEEN THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION
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Mr F Z MAJOLA: Hon Chair, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members, comrades and friends, on 4 November 2014, the Portfolio Committee on Energy received and considered a report on the Treaty on the Grand Inga Hydropower Project between the Republic of South Africa and the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, and the accompanying Explanatory Memorandum, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996. Having considered the report, the committee recommends that this august House approves the treaty.
The Grand Inga Memorandum of Understanding, signed on 11 November 2011, paved the way for the development of the Grand Inga Draft Treaty.The Grand Inga Hydropower Project has seven phases. Phase 1, which is what this treaty speaks to, is associated with the following: costs due to the development of the common works; costs due to the transmission line to Kolwezi, the delivery point at the border of the DRC and Zambia; investment by South Africa in the construction of the transmission infrastructure from the delivery point to South Africa; the commitment to off-take 2 500 megawatts by the Republic of South Africa and 2 300 megawatts by the DRC and, lastly, assistance in the mobilisation of funding.
The Grand Inga Hydropower Project is a multiphased hydropower station to be built on the Congo River at the Inga site, with the potential to generate approximately 40 000 megawatts. The Inga Dams are located in the Western DRC, 50km upstream of the mouth of the Congo River and about 225km south-west of Kinshasa. Associated with Grand Inga are transmission lines to evacuate power from the generators to supply needs in the DRC and to external countries.
At the outset, we must emphasise that the project is in line with South Africa’s stated position on a comprehensive energy mix. Tabling his state of the nation address on 17 June 2014, His Excellency the hon J G Zuma said the following:
This situation calls for a radical transformation of the energy sector, to develop a sustainable energy mix that comprises coal, solar, wind, hydro, gas and nuclear energy.
He further stated:
We are also looking beyond our borders for energy security. In October last year, we signed the Grand Inga Hydropower Project Treaty with the government of the Democratic Republic of Congo. This massive and strategic project has the potential to generate 40 000 megawatts of hydroelectricity.
This project will give a massive boost and act as one of the catalysts for regional integration, stimulating economic growth in the region and facilitating infrastructure development.
Grand Inga must be conceptualised and understood within the context of the broader African Agenda 2063, which seeks to strengthen the linkages between the African Union, AU, and its building blocks - the regional economic communities - in the interests of the agenda for a better Africa. Agenda 2063 is a commitment on the part of the African continent to a future that will guarantee the prosperity of the people of Africa for generations to come. The aspirations of Agenda 2063 are the culmination of processes that sought to focus the direction through which Africa would pursue its interests.
As South Africa, we have committed ourselves to pursuing a foreign policy that places the African Agenda as the cornerstone of our work. To this end, the Grand Inga Hydropower Project should be seen as an extension of the African Agenda and the aspirations of Agenda 2063. In particular, the Grand Inga Project is consistent with Aspiration 2 of the Agenda, which deals with energy and infrastructure.
Regarding electricity, the National Development Plan, NDP, envisages that by 2030, South Africa should have an adequate supply of electricity and liquid fuels to ensure that economic activity and welfare are not disrupted, and that at least 95% of the population should have access to grid or off-grid electricity. In addition, it calls for the move to less carbon-intensive electricity production through procuring at least 20 000 megawatts of renewable energy, increased hydro imports from the region and increased demand-side measures, including solar water heating. Grand Inga fits into the broader long-term programme of the ANC-led government.
The Renewable Energy Policy Framework of the SADC region will be enhanced through the Grand Inga Hydropower Project, in that it will develop increased production and use of renewable energy sources. The SADC Energy Protocol is the legal instrument for co-operation in the energy sector in the subregion. The protocol defines the objective of energy co-operation in the subregion as striving to harmonise national and regional energy policies, strategies and programmes on matters of common interest, based on equity, balance and mutual interest.
Furthermore, energy co-operation in the SADC region will involve working together in the development and utilisation of energy in the subregion. Therefore, member states are supposed to make energy data freely available in the region to assist in planning for the sector. A regional database to facilitate the exchange of information among institutions in order to facilitate regional energy policy formulation and planning has been set up already.
The critical need to build connections between our international relations and domestic interests through economic diplomacy as a tool of foreign policy is an established strategy of the ANC. The ANC is of the view that economic diplomacy is not merely about basic economic knowledge, but deeper appreciation of the importance of growing our economy to enable us to increase our voice and choice in international affairs. This should be the strategic orientation of our framework on economic diplomacy. However, interpretation of economic diplomacy is not just about promoting narrow economic interests. It is about the broader economic interests of the region and building an economic bloc for growth and development.
Some amongst us have raised various risks associated with this important project. We are acutely mindful of the potential risks associated with a project of this magnitude. Sedimentation is one of them - in view of the huge river discharge involved - and the large sediment loads. This was clearly demonstrated at Inga I and Inga II. However, the river is 85m deep, and long-term consequences are deemed minimal.
The effects of political instability in the region have also been raised as an issue. However, as seen between 1996 and 2004, when there was civil unrest and even war, power exports to South Africa continued without interruption. In addition, South Africa has played a major role in bringing an end to the war by being directly involved in a number of mediation talks.
On 24 February 2013, South Africa joined 10 other African countries, as well as the UN, the AU, the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region, ICGLR, and SADC, to sign the Peace, Security and Co-operation Framework for the DRC and the region. This is, arguably, the most important international effort, to date, to resolve the challenge of the recurring conflicts in the eastern DRC. The framework sets out national commitments for the DRC, for the countries of the region, and for the international community. South Africa is a member of the regional oversight mechanism that is tasked with ensuring that the countries of the region adhere to their commitments.
When all is said and done, it is quite clear to everyone that the benefits of this strategic project will far outstrip any potential risks. We, of the ANC, a progressive movement with an internationalist outlook, are very clear of our fundamental obligation to the stability and success of Africa. We will not shirk this responsibility. We know very well that the success of our country is inextricably linked to that of the African continent.
As I conclude, let us defer to the inspiring words of our iSithwalandwe-Seaparankoe, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, addressing the 15th anniversary summit of SADC in September 1995:
We owe it to all the peoples of the subcontinent to ensure that they see in us not merely good leaders waxing lyrical about development, but as the front commanders in the blast furnaces of labour, productive investments and visible change.
Africa must rise. Africa must succeed.
The ANC supports the approval of the treaty. I thank you. [Applause.]
MR L W GREYLING
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Chair, in my younger and more adventurous days, I spent a month travelling down the Congo River and was exposed to the awesome power of this fast-moving body of water. It is, in fact, known as the Great Congo Highway, in that it is the primary means through which the Congolese are able to move and trade a variety of goods between Kinshasa and the east of this vast, forested country.
Barges with floating villages of 2 000 people move alongside the local pirogues, which are large, dugout canoes made from the gigantic trees that grow in the area. At various points we would also come across other barges, pushing thousands of recently felled trees down the river, for future export to the timber markets of the industrialised countries.
So, whenever I hear about plans for the Grand Inga Hydroelectric Scheme, which has been on the cards for many a decade, my mind wanders back to those evocative images.
I first heard about this scheme, in fact, on that trip from the South African ambassador in Kinshasa, who boldly claimed that it would generate enough power to light up the whole of Africa, and even have some over to export to Europe. It seemed like a complete impossibility at the time, given the political instability of the region. This became an even more distant dream when the civil war broke out a few months later, a war that has led to the senseless death of millions of Congolese people.
It is therefore heartening for me to see that this scheme has not been forgotten and that we are, once again, taking the first tentative steps towards its realisation. Previous attempts, such as the Westcor Project, have broken down, and there certainly is no guarantee that this one will succeed this time. Make no mistake: There are numerous financial, political and construction challenges to overcome before we see any electrons moving from the Congo on their 3 000-kilometre journey down to the South African grid.
As much as the DA would like to support any initiative that holds the promise of power in the Southern African region and brings much-needed development to the Congolese people, we are also wary of grand schemes like this one failing to deliver on their promise. Unfortunately, the ANC’s track record on delivering on mega construction projects also does not, in any way, engender confidence, to put it mildly. Thankfully, this treaty does not bind us to any major financial commitments at this stage, and a private consortium, as opposed to Eskom, will be building these huge series of dams.
Our commitment will, in fact, come in the form of agreeing to buy the electricity at a price which is still to be negotiated. The DA believes that South Africa must set an internal ceiling price, though, to ensure that we only agree to buying electricity at a price that can compete with our other energy-generating technologies. This price, however, must take into account the enormous costs that will be incurred in actually getting the power from the Congo down to South Africa. This will require both the building of long transmission lines through the Congo forest and then massively upgrading the Southern African power-pool grid so as to evacuate the power down to South Africa.
It is therefore imperative that all of these costs are factored into the final price that we pay for this electricity, so that we can ensure that it makes financial sense for our energy market.
Unfortunately, though, this project also introduces a huge level of uncertainty for our own future energy plans. The energy policy of this ANC government seems to have given up any pretence at rational modelling and has, instead, adopted a stance of all of the above, without any regard for its impact on the future electricity price. The continued push for a nuclear deal, despite government documents like the National Development Plan, the Integrated Resource plan update and numerous energy experts warning against it, is one example of this irrational approach to our energy security. It also seems that the ANC is content to only apply its mind to energy solutions that will come on stream in more than a decade, rather than focusing on fast-tracking solutions to our present energy crisis.
While the Energy Minister flies around the world signing these kinds of agreements, very little action is forthcoming from her department in finalising policy documents like the IRP update, the Gas Utilisation Master Plan and a procurement process for co-generation projects which have been delayed for over three years. These are solutions that can be brought on stream within two years, and the department should be creating an environment conducive for this to happen. You would swear that we weren’t in the midst of a major energy crisis that is holding back our economic growth and making a mockery of our attempts at job creation, given the lack of urgency on the part of the Energy department to deal with our crisis – and implement these kinds of solutions.
While the DA therefore supports this treaty and hopes it will eventually aid the economic development of the Southern African region, we also call on the ANC to finally table the nuclear agreements that have been signed. Until those agreements are tabled in this House, the suspicion will continue to linger that a deal has already been struck and that our country has been locked into a nuclear deal that has the potential to bankrupt our economy, while enriching the ANC.
Hon Minister, wherever you are in the world at the moment, I have one thing left to say: Bring us the nuclear agreements! I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N R MASHABELA
Mr L W GREYLING
Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Chair, as much as we are not opposed to the development of the region and the continent through projects like the Grand Inga Hydropower Project, we have serious reservations and concerns about the political manipulation of the project itself for the enrichment of friends and families.
We believe that the project is South Africa and the region’s solution to energy poverty, a problem we are currently faced with. It is said that the project itself has the potential to generate 40 000 megawatts which is sufficient to power half of Africa. We also think that the industrialisation of Africa is the way to go in fast-tracking development on the continent.
But our greatest concern is that this project, like many others that we have seen recently, is used as a vehicle for corruption by politicians. Treaties and projects come with the high risk of corruption deals and escalation in costs which may not be affordable and sustainable.
Corruption normally hides under the disguise of such massive projects for the enrichment of politicians and their families. We remember that it was largely reported by the media that President Zuma played a crucial role in the 2010 decision by DRC President Joseph Kabila to allocate two oil fields in the northeast of the country to his nephew. All fortunes, in the region of R100 billion, are owned by the President’s nephew, Khulubuse Zuma, in the DRC, and he was awarded oil licences in sub-Sahara Africa to do business.
The Nkandlagate of stealing R246 million of taxpayers’ money through President Zuma’s failure to pay for unduly benefiting, leaves much to be desired and raises questions as to how much he will benefit, as in the arms deal, in this treaty.
The EFF is tired of funding Zuma, the thief, the criminal, who refused to pay a cent. [Interjections.] President ...
Mr Z M D MANDELA: On a point of order, Chair. On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member Mashabela, will you just take your seat, please. Yes, hon member?
Mr Z M D MANDELA: Could you ask the hon member to withdraw that the President of this country is a thief.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mashabela, will you withdraw the remark please.
Ms N R MASHABELA: The President of the ANC is the greatest thief in the world. [Interjections.] I’m not going to withdraw. He is a criminal. He is a thief. Even South Africa knows very well that their President is a thief.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ... Hon member! Hon member ...
Ms N R MASHABELA: I’m not going to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, if you are not prepared to withdraw, then you must leave the podium.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Zuma is a thief. I’m not going to withdraw, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Ms N R MASHABELA: Zuma is a criminal.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member!
Ms N R MASHABELA: Zuma is a criminal. Zuma is a thief. The world knows very well that the president of the ANC is the greatest thief in the world. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member! Hon member, if you don’t want to withdraw ... [Interjections.] Hon member, if you don’t want to withdraw, I am asking you to leave the podium. Hon member, I am requesting you now for the last time ... [Interjections.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: The people of South Africa know very well that the president of the ANC is a thief. [Interjections.] He is a criminal. Zuma is a thief. I am not going to withdraw. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, then you must leave the podium. [Interjections.] Then you must leave ...
Ms N R MASHABELA: No, I must finish my speech first.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member.
Ms N R MASHABELA: I am not going to withdraw. Zuma is a thief. Zuma is a criminal. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you must leave the podium.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Zuma is a thief.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you are not going to be allowed to finish your speech. You will leave the podium, and as you are not withdrawing the remark, you are also going to leave the House. [Inaudible.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: Zuma is a thief. I can’t withdraw. He is a criminal. He is the greatest thief in the world. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I now ... [Inaudible.]
Mr M S MBATHA: ... [Inaudible.] Chair, you cannot stop me because you don’t even know what I want to say. I must be recognised.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I am not recognising you, hon member. I am busy dealing with the matter in front of me.
Mr M S MBATHA: I want to be recognised, so that I can assist you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am not recognising you, hon member. [Interjections.]
Hon member, you are refusing to withdraw the remark, so I will ask you to leave the podium and to leave the House.
Ms N R MASHABELA: No, no, hon Chair. I am not going to leave. Zuma is a thief. I will not withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): If you are not prepared to leave the House, then I will call upon the Serjeant-at-Arms to relieve you from the podium. [Interjections.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: Zuma is a thief. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Can we get the Serjeant-at-Arms ... [Inaudible.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: South Africa knows very well that ...
Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order, Chairperson. Let us assist you on this matter. [Interjections.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: I’m not going to withdraw. Allow me to finish my speech. [Interjections.] Chair, allow me to finish my speech. Please allow me to finish my speech. [Interjections.]
Zuma is a thief. I’m not going to withdraw it. Zuma is the greatest thief in the world. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ... No, hon member. [Interjections.]
I am asking you, hon Mashabela – I am naming you now – to withdraw from the House.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Point of order, Chairperson. May I be recognised?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, there are a lot of you standing, hon Litchfield. I hope you will be able to ... [Interjections.] No, hon member. I hope you will be able to assist us, so that your hon member can either withdraw or withdraw from the House.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: I am assisting, hon Chair. A precedent was set. It was ruled before that we mustn’t be personal. It’s a political debate. The President is a thief. It’s said in a political debate. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon members. [Interjections.] No. Hon members, I am now going to request the Serjeant-at-Arms to relieve the hon member from the House. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Chair, can we assist you? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member Mashabela, you have said repeatedly, on numerous occasions, that the President is a thief, and that is what we are asking you to withdraw.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Chair, I’ve stated that I am not going to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Serjeant ...
Ms N R MASHABELA: He is the greatest thief in the world.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Serjeant-at-Arms, could we assist the member to get out of the House, please? [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: Chair, we want to help! Chair, we want to help! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: This way! This way! This way! [Interjections.]
Ms N R MASHABELA: Do not touch me! Don’t! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: A point of order! A point of order!
Ms N R MASHABELA: They are not supposed to touch me. They are not supposed to touch me.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, Order!, Order! Hon members, while the Serjeant-at-Arms is dealing with the situation, we will suspend proceedings for five minutes.
Ms N R MASHABELA: I don’t want to be touched. [Interjections.] No, I don’t want to be touched! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There are members... Hon Steenhuisen, there are members of your party taking pictures. Can you delete that picture, please? [Interjections.] Hon member at the back, can you just... May I request you, hon Steenhuisen, just to talk to your member and have the picture deleted, please? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Get out! Get out! Get out! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! [Interjections.] Point of order! Point of order! Point of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Thatha [long live], military state! Thatha! [long live].
Mr The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! [Interjections.] Point of order! Point of order! Point of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No! Get out! [Interjections.] No! Go away! Separation of powers! No! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Out of the House! Take them out! No police in the House! No police in the House! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.] Not my sister! [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order! Point of order! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: You called the police into Parliament! Shame on you! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: You’re a disgrace! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Welcome! Welcome! [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Get out! Get out! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Mr C T Frolick)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! [Interjections.] Hon members, will you take your seats, please. [Interjections.] Order, hon members, order! [Interjections.] Hon members, I recognise hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, sorry my microphone has stopped working. Can you just switch on?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are the microphones on?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, I think all of us in this place... at least if you believe in the Constitution of this country, you will know that in no world can police enter this Chamber. [Interjections.] You will know that in no world... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! hon members, order! [Interjections.] Hon members, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon members! Hon members!
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: On a point of order, Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, hon Minister, will you just take your seat, please? [Interjections.]
There was a discussion outside of the Chamber with the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. There was an agreement on the specific procedure to be followed and I have recognised you. Get to the point, hon Maimane, so that we can proceed, please.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to propose, in the light of the events that have taken place tonight, that we suspend tonight’s sitting and then reconvene ...[Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order! [Interjections.] Hon members, order! Order! [Interjections.] Hon Maimane?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I think, consistent with the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, we all recognise what happened here tonight. I want to appeal for calm and put it to this House that the sitting of tonight, in fact, be suspended. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! The hon Chief Whip? [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Can you please... Hon Waters, ... [Interjections.] No, please let us try to behave. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! hon members. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: You are not behaving now. They are quiet; you are taking over. [Interjections.] Hon Steenhuisen, please... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Steenhuisen, you should be the one stopping people! Do not behave like this, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Get on with it, hon Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we have agreed that there is no possibility that we can talk rationally to each other and listen to each other. Because of that, we think that we should postpone tonight’s ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Give the Chief Whip a chance to say what he has to say. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We propose that we postpone the proceedings of tonight until further notice. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, there was a discussion outside between the leader of the DA, the Chief Whip and the EFF. There was an agreement that we will put the question on the Treaty. That is the agreement. The question on the Treaty will be put to the House so that we can dispense with this matter.
I will now put the question in terms of the Treaty. That is the agreement that has been reached.
Are there any objections to the Approval of the Treaty as it appears on the Order Paper? No objections. Since there are no objections, the Treaty is then agreed to.
Treaty on the Grand Inga Hydropower Project between the Republic of South Africa and the Democratic Republic of Congo approved.
Debate interrupted.
The House adjourned at 23:03.
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