Hansard: NCOP: Questions to the Cluster 2 – Social Services
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 16 Sep 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
START OF DAY[nm1]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
16 SEPTEMBER 2014
PAGE: 1
TUESDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_____________
The Council met at 14:08.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENT
START OF DAY
NO MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE OR NOTICES OF MOTION
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery have agreed that for today, we shall not have any Motions Without Notice or Notices of Motion.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, as the Chief Whip of the Council, I move that the Council, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council be dedicated for oral questions, considers reports of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
W P ZONDI GRANTED LEAVE OF ABSENCE IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 17(2)
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: As the Chief Whip of the Council, I move that, notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 17(1) of the Rules of the National Council of Provinces, the Council resolves to grant hon W P Zondi leave of absence from proceedings of both the Council and committees of the Council in terms of Rule 17(2) until the hon member is ready to resume her duties.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIRST ORDER
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
FIRST ORDER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS – NOTICE OF INTERVENTION IN TERMS OF SECTION 139(1)(C) OF THE CONSTITUTION, 1996 TO MPOFANA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY, KWAZULU-NATAL
Mr[nm2] M J MOHAPI: Hon Deputy Chair, allow me to indicate upfront that the report that I will be presenting is a true reflection of what transpired in the meeting of the Select Committee of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs[rm3] , yesterday. On that basis, the statement of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs on Mpofana Local Municipality intervention in terms of section 139(1)(c) is also a true reflection.
The current intervention and decision to dissolve Mooi Mpofana Local Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal in terms of section 139 (1)(c) of the Constitution is a manifestation of a very deep crisis in the municipality. The Provincial Executive Council has thus been duty-bound to take decisive actions intended to bring about the desired normality in the area of good governance, accountability and compliance in this municipality as part of measures to overhaul the municipality’s state of performance in order to enhance service delivery implementation.
Having regarded the comprehensive motivation that cited clear details and sufficient reasons that have led to the Provincial[rm4] Executive Committee, the PEC, to embark on this particular measure, the select committee held the same view that, given the current state of municipal dysfunction, nothing else could have been done to rescue the municipality from any further sinking except for the decisive government action for the good of the communities being served.
The current state[rm5] of municipal governance, accountability and compliance challenges affecting the functionality of the municipality are so exceptional that it has been proven beyond any doubt that the decision to invoke the provision of section 139 (1)(c) of the Constitution is justifiable. All attempts at bringing about normality in this municipality have yielded negative results whilst service delivery is being compromised.
Inherent dysfunctions have triggered a series of violent service delivery protests, with the municipality having been converted into an institution of do-as-you-please and no one will ask nor question you. Much damage and harm has culminated into an upsurge of apathy by the local community, rising up against an institution that is nowhere towards fully addressing community basic service delivery needs.
Key issues that have necessitated this particular intervention are as follows: The MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in the KwaZulu-Natal province has submitted a galaxy of comprehensive reasons that have triggered this particular intervention in terms of section 139 (1)(c) of the Constitution, a decision that may, on face value, appear very harsh and drastic, yet it is the option that the province has been left with, having done everything possible to reposition the municipality.
Some of the reasons that warranted the introduction of section 139(1)(c) are the following: firstly, the municipality has for some time been plagued by a continuous labour unrest and community protests that have impinged upon the functionality of the municipality in the area of service delivery, the provision of basic services, local municipal political leadership, local municipal administrative leadership and sheer absence of necessary oversight in all functional areas of the municipality; secondly, the posts of strategic senior managers have remained vacant for quite sometime; and thirdly, the municipality consequently has no credible Intergrated[rm6] Development Planning, IDP, package for the delivery of services and developments necessary to improve the municipal’s local economic environment. There is no human resource strategy and Plan; no work place skills plan; no integrated waste management plan; and the status of roads and infrastructure is so dire with very huge service delivery backlogs, high consumer debts, poor revenue and expenditure management, collection and billing systems resulting in local communities being up in arms against the Council.
For two consecutive years there has been a challenge in terms of the audit outcome. In essence, the municipality has regressed in terms of their audit outcome. There is quiet a number of reasons that one can relate to, but because the report is also before you, I just picked on some of them.
The municipality is currently battling to handle its own cash flow problems to an extent of being unable to foot the bills for its daily financial activities. The municipality has also incurred a huge loss in electricity amounting to R11,3 million against the income of R27,9 million received, thus, showing undercollection[rm7] of revenue. Its expenditure was R39,2 million, way far above the expenditure mark. Additional to this is an amount of R6,87 million loss in electricity as calculated by the provincial inspectorate for the department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and support staff.
In terms of section 139(1)(c) of the Constitution, if a municipality cannot or does not fulfil its executive obligation in terms of the Constitution or legislation, the relevant provincial executive may intervene by taking appropriate steps to ensure the fulfilment of that obligation including dissolving a municipal council and appointing a Municipal Administrator until a newly elected municipal council has been appointed.
In terms of the procedure, section 139(3)(b) of the Constitution, provides that within 14 days, we are expected as the municipal council to ensure that we pronounce in terms of the notice that was served before us. So, the select committee, having resolved to call upon the MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in this province, set a meeting here yesterday on 15 September for the full briefing on all exceptional circumstances that warranted the PEC to resolve to dissolve the council, considering the fact that there has never been any intervention in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution in this municipality.
The committee has thereupon, in its recommendation, taken full account of all relevant factors, including inherent challenges affected in the PEC letter of request for the approval of the intervention by the NCOP. Based on that, the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs recommends as follows.
Firstly, that the NCOP approves the intervention in Mpofana Local Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal as resolved by the PEC in terms of section 139(1)(c) of the Constitution.
Secondly, that before the newly elected municipal council could be declared elected, the administrator must identify the institutional capacity and skills inherent in the municipality in relation to the executive obligation of the municipality where the municipality might have failed. If the municipality lacks the necessary capacity and skills for the fulfilment of these obligations, the administrator must ensure that arrangements are made to assist the municipality with measures to appropriately acquire such needed skills.
Thirdly, as the select committee, we are also saying that the MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs should provide and table periodic progress reports to the NCOP and the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature on the status of the intervention. This includes progress reports regarding the work of the administrator and the challenges that continue to exert pressure on the ability of both the administrator and the province. Based on that, allow me to submit to the Council that, as the select committee, we recommend that the NCOP approves the support for the introduction of section 139(1)(c) of the Constitution in terms of dissolving Mpofana Local Municipality. I thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put[nm8] . That the Report be adopted.
In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SECOND ORDER
FIRST ORDER
SECOND ORDER
CONSIDERATION[nm9] OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - NOTICE OF INTERVENTION IN TERMS OF SECTION 139(1)(C) OF THE CONSTITUTION, 1996 TO NGAKA MODIRI MOLEMA DISTRICT MUNICIPALITY, NORTH WEST
Mr[nm10] M J MOHAPI: Chair, once again, I must place it on record that the select committee had a meeting yesterday and unanimously agreed that we are in support of the report I will be presenting here.
The first intervention in Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality in North West was sanctioned in 2009, in terms of section 139(1)(C) of the Constitution. Key amongst the reasons which led to the provincial executive committee by then in north West province to invoke this provision of the Constitution and assuming the executive responsibility at the district municipality, was as a result of a thorough eight months assessment of the situation by the provincial department for local government and housing as well as the national Department of Co-operative governance and Traditional Affairs. During the assessment period, a ministerial task team was established which was led by the Minister of Co-operative governance and Traditional Affairs and its role was to identify areas and sources of conflict that impact negatively on the service delivery and governance in that municipality.
The findings of the ministerial task team related to the performance of functions by the municipality beyond its constitutional and legislative mandate; dysfunctional political governance structure; approval of salary adjustment agreements which was in breach of the main collective agreement; noncompliance with the legislative provisioning in governing local government sphere; irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure; breakdown of service delivery and instability caused by mismanagement of union strikes; dismissal of the municipal manager; and the allegation of fraud, corruption and mismanagement.
Subsequent to the ministerial task team’s findings, the then MEC responsible for the Department of Local Government and Housing invoked section 139 (1)(C) of the Constitution in the municipality for a period of six months. An administrator was then appointed to execute all executive obligations and functions of the municipality with effect from 01 July 2009. In 2010 March, the then Premier requested an extended period of six months for the then appointed administrator to continue assuming the executive obligations of the district municipality. This was based on the outstanding work which was not completed in order for the administrator to facilitate smooth handover process for the municipality to resume its executive functions. Some of the outstanding work related to the appointment of section 57 managers including the municipal manager, financial challenges of the municipality, legal delays with regard to the officials who were charged pending legal judgment with regard to the contractor Mvula Trust and the performance audit that had since started. Furthermore, the administrator was awaiting instructions from the Auditor-General with regard to disciplinary actions against the mayor. The NCOP granted by then approval for the extension of the intervention.
I must indicate, the current intervention is the second in the series and was based on the resolution of the North West provincial executive committee, PEC, taken on 03 September 2014 to invoke the provision of section 139(1)(C) of the Constitution. The North West Department of Local Government and Human Settlements has identified areas where there is a need to intervene through other legislative measures as there were evident signs of poor administration and governance in that municipality which negatively affected service delivery.
What triggered the intervention? Through the notice received from the MEC, the main issues identified by the provincial executive to dissolve the municipal council of Ngaka Modiri Molema Municipal District, related to the following: Failure by the political leadership of the municipality to provide leadership and exercise oversight as expected in terms of the provisions of the law and also take note of ownership and acting on the irregularities in the administration of the municipality; failure by the municipality to provide quality service to the residents of Ngaka Modiri Molema District in line with the powers of functions as outlined in terms of section 84 of the Municipal Structures Act; failure to implement programmes and projects related to infrastructure programme for water and sanitation services as we know that water is our right and sanitation is our dignity; poor administration of service delivery related programmes; poor infrastructure spending and poor monitoring of projects and programmes; poor integration and co-ordination of infrastructure and other programmes with the local municipality as the water service authority in terms of the intergovernmental relations framework stipulates; failure by the municipal council to act on the alleged maladministration, fraud and corruption; and failure by the district municipality to provide support to local municipalities in terms of section 88 of the Municipal Structures Act.
It should be noted that the above challenges included also oral representation made by the district municipality in a meeting held with the MEC which led the PEC to resolve that exceptional circumstances exited in dissolving the district municipality in terms of section 139(1)(C) of the Constitution with effect from 03 September.
In terms of section 139(1)(C) of the Constitution, when a municipality does not fulfil an executive obligation in terms of the Constitution or legislation, the relevant provincial executive may intervene by taking any appropriate steps to ensure the fulfilment of that obligation including dissolving the municipal council and appointing an administrator until a newly elected municipal council has been declared elected.
The NCOP has referred the notice of intervention in Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipal to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs on 05 September where the matter was tabled and after consideration, the committee felt that we should justice by inviting the MEC to come and brief the committee. I must place it on record that in terms of procedure in case of the invoke in Section 139(1)(C), the Constitution stipulates very clear that as the NCOP we have 14 days after receiving the notice to either set aside the decision by the PEC to dissolve this municipality.
Coming to the principle behind the dissolution, dissolution is the final step in a process of intervention consisting of more than one attempt to resolve the problem that may exist in the municipality. It should be remembered that in the district there was an intervention invoked in 2009 in terms of section 139 (1)(C), and was subsequent extended. Dissolution is clearly designed as the corrective measure to ensure that appropriate steps are taken that would resolve the problems that may be experienced in a particular municipality.
Also to place it on record, in 2009, the President of the country issued a Proclamation R72 of 2009 to investigate all 24 municipalities in the North West province by Special Investigating Unit. The list of municipalities included also Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality. The proclamation was based on the allegations that should have been taken between 01 January 2005 and the date of publication of the Proclamation. In 2014, the Public Protector also investigated allegations of corruption, maladministration, nepotism, wasteful and fruitless expenditure and victimisation of workers by the municipal manager. Further allegations of irregular appointment of staff, irregular allocation of tenders and abuse of power were levelled against the municipal manager. The Public Protector’s investigation to these issues is still under way as stated in the Public Protector’s media release on 04 July 2013.
In terms of the health risk posed by the water contamination, pollution and lack of water and sanitation services, in a letter written by the Centre of Environmental Rights and Lawyers for Human Rights to the Minister and Director-General of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, dated 08 August 2014, there has been an observation made on the serious risk posed by water contamination, pollution and lack of water and sanitation services in Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality. Also key is Cogta report on the state of local government assessment in the district. In a report that was also tabled in 2011, it is very clear that out of that report what was stipulated is that the council undermines laws and policies that govern local government. There is also poor prioritisation of services and functions by the municipality.
Out of our deliberations, we felt and deemed it fit that we should recommend the following to the NCOP. Based on the frustrations raised by the MEC and also challenges in terms of the municipality, the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs recommends that the NCOP approves the intervention as issued by the North West provincial executive council in terms of section 139 (1)(C) of the Constitution; before the newly elected municipal council is declared elected, the administrator should identify the issue of capacity and also ensures that it develops a plan that will really assist in terms of building capacity for the municipality; and the North West MEC for local government and human settlements should table progress report to the NCOP and the relevant provincial legislature on the status of by-elections to be held at Ngaka Modiri Molema District Municipality as well as progress report on the work of the administrator.
Lastly, from our side as the committee, we have observed that we need to ensure that from time to time the South African Local Government Association, Salga, plays its role in terms of participating as and when we embark on issues of intervention; there is a need for continuous reporting in terms of section 47 of the Municipality Systems Act by the MEC, reflecting the state of performance of various municipalities in provinces; it will be proper that we expedite the process of ensuring that Intergovernmental Monitoring, Support and Interventions Bill is finalised so that we can be able to regulate the processes of intervention as stipulated in terms of section 139 (1)(C) of the Constitution.
I thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
Declaration(s) of vote[nm11] :
Ms[nm12] C LABUSCHAGNE: The Western Cape, in supporting the recommendations and wants the Minister to clearly define how he intends holding new elections to replace the existing councillors in the view of this being a district municipality.
Mr[nm13] L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chair, we are noting the fact that substantive issues were attended to. We are further noting that the work of holding the elections is independently conducted by the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, and that the MEC has no powers in holding the elections. We are asserting that the interventions should always be guided on our own obligations as the NCOP and as provincial government to uphold the Constitution to give the expression of the Constitution with regards to chapter 2 of the Constitution where we are obliged to make sure that the citizens of this country receive services. As an institution, we should guard against our own fault in governing the interests of our people, to make sure that we promote the aspirations and needs so that they realise the purpose of being South Africans.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In the absence of any other province, then we shall proceed with the voting. Of course, we shall proceed in an alphabetical order. Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Before we proceed with the questions, I would like to take the opportunity to welcome all Ministers and Deputy Ministers to the Council to take and respond to questions.
Two issues have been brought to my attention. Firstly, all questions by the hon Masango will be followed up by hon Van Lingen due urgent party commitments and so forth. So the member is not in the House.
Secondly, there was a formal communiqué to the Chair by the Minister of Human Settlements requesting that we start with her questions. I therefore take it that we are all agreed to such a process.
A matter has been brought to my attention that some written questions in the previous sitting, which were not responded to and converted to oral reply, in terms of Rule 249 of the Council have since been responded to by the Ministers and they will therefore not be required to be responded to by the Ministers present. I take it also that members have received those written responses to the questions that were converted earlier.
QUESTION 49
FIRST ORDER
Question[nm14] 49:
The[nm15] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, the question I will be responding to now is Question 49, asked by the hon Labuschagne of the Western Cape DA, and my response to that question is that the authority to allocate Human Settlements grants funding for the implementation of various national housing programmes and priorities vest in the nine provinces of government. The specific funding allocation for the provision of housing for children affected by the death of their parents or guardians is thus, not available from the national fund, but is available through the grant. However, the priorities are articulated by the Minister and have since been adopted by Ministers and Members of Executive Council, MinMec, and the expectation is that each province will ring-fence some allocation to ensure that this priority which we all agreed to is met with. The implementing agency for this through all the nine provinces will be the National Housing Agency because I believe that it is in a better position to do as requested.
Now that the pronouncements have been made in the House and we have committed ourselves to fully upscale the National Housing Development Agency, it will be able to assist the municipalities and the provinces that need assistant in terms of provision of houses for children with special needs or child-headed households.
We have since entered into an undertaking an agreement with the Department of Social Development as articulated in the Budget Vote of the Minister, and it commenced on 1 September 2014. We are in agreement with the Department of Social Development that through the NGOs that run and accommodate children with special needs such as these, we will be able to work together and create the necessary facilities to ensure that once the houses have been built, the children who are allocated these houses by the competent level of government whether it is provincial or municipality, will be looked after by the legal guardians and this is the responsibility of the Department of Social Development. Thank you.
Ms[nm16] C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I would like to know what database will the Departments of Health and Human Settlements use to determine child-headed households and what type of housing will they households receive.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Do you mind to repeat your question, hon Labuschagne?
Ms[nm17] C LABUSCHAGNE: I would like to know what database will the Department of Human Settlements use to determine child-headed households that need to receive this houses, and what type of housing will child-headed households receive.
The[nm18] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The database already exists with the Department of Social Development. They have the database of all children that are in this particular position and need assistance, and the type of housing will be determined by the needs of the particular family. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Supplementary questions. No, you have to. You have had yours, relax. Any other supplementary question?
Ms[nm19] E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I just want clarity on the fact that hon Labuschagne has, according to Council Rules, two follow-up questions to which she is entitled to.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: She is entitled to one
Ms[nm20] E C VAN LINGEN: She is entitled to two.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are taking four questions at the moment and then as per the agreement with the hon member, the first question will be the original question and the supplementary question will therefore be the one he’s entitled to. We’ll then allow three other members to have their supplementary questions. Can we have any other supplementary questions, hon members? Is it a supplementary question? Okay!
Ms[nm21] E C VAN LINGEN: Given that child-headed households are headed up by minors, who will control the administration of such households?
The[nm22] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, as I have indicated, we have entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with the Department of Social Development, and the Department of Social Development does have caregivers and social workers. It will allocate legal guardians for the children and this is what we are working on right now.
QUESTION 67
QUESTION 49
Question[nm23] 67:
The[nm24] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I had hoped that hon Labuschagne would say that it is a very good idea that we are providing housing for children in this particular case, and I thought she would offer her assistance.
Nonetheless, Question 67, Comrade[S25] Deputy Chair, has been asked by the IFP member of KwaZulu-Natal and my response is as follows: The Housing Development Agency currently oversees projects and manages the construction of houses at national priority level and so far, it is responsible for the N2 Gateway Project. So, as you drive towards the airport, please do not forget to look to your left and you will see progress under the leadership of the agency. It is also responsible for Zanemvula in the Eastern Cape and proudly responsible for having finalised the Cornubia Project in KwaZulu-Natal.
The agency works directly with provinces and municipalities that need help on the issue of land acquisition and is continuously receiving requests from municipalities to facilitate release of identified public owned land that is required for human settlements. The agency also assists provinces and municipalities in private land acquisitions that are required for human settlements. Part of the work of the agency is to proactively acquire this land and make sure that the necessary infrastructure is put in place.
No budget has been allocated to the Housing Development Agency for the building of houses. The financing of the housing construction in terms of the government’s housing programme is done through the Human Settlement Development Grant which I said earlier, is being administered by the provinces and various municipalities. Thank you.
QUESTION 73
Question 67
Question 73:
The[nm26] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, Question 73 has been asked by the hon member from the ANC, who wanted to know whether we have taken any steps to ensure that the previously marginalised communities and the poor have access to housing and land in the urban areas, especially, in the affluent areas. If not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details? My response is: We would very much like to make sure that we have access to land in the affluent areas and we are working towards doing that. However, the very basis of us having adopted the human settlements development plan in 2004, and having had it adopted by the Cabinet, was to make sure that we change the apartheid spatial plan. That was to make sure that we can create truly integrated and sustainable human settlements to ensure that we cover all our people. We make sure that people have easy access to the cities, which provide employment and all the other amenities; to ensure that the poorest of the poor do not have to travel all the distances in search of work and to get to work.
We have worked out that actually a huge chunk of their salaries are taken up by travelling costs to and from work. We would like them to have the same advantage that everybody else has. Therefore, what we are doing is to make sure that we change how people lived in the past and how they are living now.
The second part of the question is, whether such measures include building integrated human settlement to address the apartheid spatial plan of the past; whether there are any measures in place to address these problems, if there are any problems?
That is precisely what we are trying to do. The problem that we might encounter is accessing land in affluent areas, but where the land belong to the state, we ensure that we get that land, so that we are able to make sure that South Africa truly represents all the people who live in it. And we make sure that both black and white, the poor and the rich are able to enjoy the benefits of living within a particular vicinity of the city and all the amenities that it provides.
Setswana:
MOTLATSA MODULASETULO WA LEKGOTLA LA NAHA LA DIPOROFENSI: O kgotsofetse, Ntate?
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Ke kgotsofetse.
QUESTION 74
QUESTION 73
Question[nm27] 74:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Chairperson, Question 74 was asked by the member of the ANC from Mpumalanga. Her question is: Has the implementation of the comprehensive plan which is currently underway at the Transnet Hostel in Langa commenced? If not, why not? If so, what are the details?
In 2005, we were approached by what was then called Intersite, which was responsible for the hostel in Langa because the upkeep of the hostel had deteriorated, and Transnet did not want to continue to run the hotel. The hostel was then offered to us, as Human Settlements, and we were only too happy to take it over. At that time, I remember you were the Chairperson of the NCOP. We had hoped that we would turn these hostels into affordable rental accommodation.
I have since discovered that in my absence, in the last five years, this has been reversed and now I am informed that, in fact, the hostel has been given over to the province and I am not sure under which conditions. My intention is to follow it up and make sure that it becomes part of the N2 Gateway Project - which is what it was intended to be - then we will turn it into affordable housing and rental accommodation as it was intended by Transnet. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.
SiSwati:
Nks[nm28] L C DLAMINI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ngenetisekile.
Setswana:
MOTLATSA MODULASETULO WA LEKGOTLA LA NAHA LA DIPOROFENSI: Ha ke a utlwa [Setsheho.] O kgotsofetse?
English:
Ms[nm29] L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, I was saying thank you very much ...
SiSwati:
... ngenetisekile.
English:
I am satisfied.
Setswana:
MOTLATSA MODULASETULO WA LEKGOTLA LA NAHA LA DIPOROFENSI: Ke tla e tshwara, nke ke ka e lebala.
QUESTION 95
QUESTION 74
Question[nm30] 95:
The[nm31] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, hon Dlamini, ...
Siswati:
... kute lotakusita ngeSiswati lapha ekhaya lulwimi luyala.
English:
Question 95 has been asked by the hon ANC member from the Eastern Cape, whether any progress in the government’s attempt to get banks to play back into the role of the provision of houses has been made and what the current progress is to address the housing backlog.
I am very happy to say that in 2005 we had signed social compact with the banks and various other stakeholders to make sure that we can give effect to the integrated human settlements. We were riding on the back of the Financial Services Charter, which committed R80 billion to our provision of houses and up to now we can attest to the fact that we did get R80 billion from the banking sector assisting us to provide the type of housing that we have.
They have been the backbone of a number of important housing projects in Olievenhoutbosch and Cosmo City in Gauteng. They have assisted us here with the N2 Gateway project. The affordable housing on the N2 Gateway is provided by the banks and Amalgamated Banks of SA, Absa, has provided resources for various others.
We’ve been getting very good co-operation from the banking sector. However, the compact did last and we have since met with the banking sector and they are very eager to come back to the sector to assist us and be a partner. We are hoping that when we will be having the Housing Indaba on the 16 and 17 October, they will be signing yet again, possibly double the R80 billion that they had committed to initially, to ensure that we are able to provide affordable housing to those people who earn more than R3 000 and therefore cannot get free housing from the state.
Most of these are public servants and we would like to make sure that the banks are able to provide the necessary mortgage facility for them. The state itself is taking the lead in making sure that we can provide housing for government employees and we hope that once it is signed into some kind of memorandum of understanding with the banks, we will be able to find more of this. People who work in Parliament and for government will be able to find the necessary accommodation. Our biggest problem is finding affordable housing where people who earn more than R3 000 are able to get a mortgage from the bank, but we are getting help from the banks and we are grateful for this, and as soon as we have signed that we will report back to the House that we are back on track. Thank you.
THE MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
QUESTION 95
Question[nm32] 100:
The[nm33] MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chairperson, it is a pity that the hon member of the EFF from Gauteng is not here right now, but I would like to assure the hon member that we are using the Housing Development Agency to facilitate the release of land. So far we have received substantial amount of land owned by the private sector and public sector to ensure that we are able to get land for housing development. I will hand over to you, Chair, so that it is handed over to the member of the EFF, a breakdown of the land that we have been able to access through the Housing Development Agency.
In conclusion, I just want to read something that was pronounced by the Minister of Public Works and I didn’t bribe him at all. He said: “One property measuring 128 hectares, earmarked for sustainable human settlements, was approved for release in 2013-14. A further 22 properties were identified for release in the current year as suitable for human settlements.”
If we continue getting this kind of support from the Minister of Public Works and any other Minister here present who might own land that might be useful for us, we will be grateful to get it. I do know that the Minister of Basic Education does not have any land. To any landowner present here, we will be extremely grateful if that land could be ceded to us because we are running short of space and our housing backlog was in the region of R2,3 million at the last count. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. Maybe that confusion was as a result of the absence of the member and the fact that I was not informed of any person who will take responsibility for the questions of the member. We therefore proceed without taking any supplementary questions in that regard. Thank you very much for your availability, hon Minister. You are released if you so wish.
QUESTION 29
QUESTION 100
Question[nm34] 29:
The[nm35] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, perhaps let me start by saying that the hon Minister of Human Settlements owes me some bucks for the slot she hijacked. You know, there are pirates here.
The answer to the question by the hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana from the DA in the Western Cape is as follows: In keeping with the commitments in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTEF, the Department of Arts and Culture will allocate substantial resources to support community arts in the next five years. Based on an audit conducted in 2013-14 of existing community arts centres, a plan has been developed for the implementation of a comprehensive community arts development programme.
In 2015-16 and the outer years of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, R65 million has been set aside for programming and R45 million for infrastructure development. As a start, from 2015-16 and outer years of the MTEF, R30 million has been set aside for the renovation and refurbishment of the existing community arts centres. Thank you.
Ms[nm36] T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, my question to the Minister is: Does the Minister consider that the budget given is sufficient to fulfil the mandate for the purpose of the cultural centres?
The[nm37] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, I am glad for the follow-up question because it underlines the point that resources will always be needed, especially on this ...
Mr[nm38] L SUKA: I rise on a point of order that the member should sit down so that she gives space to the Minister to respond. [Laughter.]
The[nm39] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I sustain that order. Hon member, may you please settle down or I will refer you to the hon Minister for Human Settlements so that she can manage the settlement of the member in the House. Continue, hon Minister.
The[nm40] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chair, obviously, there wouldn’t be adequate finances and resources as we know that the economic downturn affects us also here in South Africa. However, we are confident that a start will be made on the programme and what we have put forward for the next five years, especially in the reintroduction of the community arts centres. Thank you.
Ms[nm41] L L ZWANE: I just wish to enquire from the Minister of Arts and Culture whether enough is being done to educate communities about the kind of assistance and information that they can generally get from the cultural centres? Thank you.
The[nm42] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: I don’t think so. I think we all have an obligation to put this very important matter on the table - the matter of people having insight on arts and cultural matters - and as a result, our department is engaging with the Department of Basic Education, in particular, and has artists dispatched to schools, especially those schools which are still teaching arts and culture as a subject.
As we further interact with the Department of Basic Education, we hope that in the final analysis we will have a universal coverage of all schools because we feel it is an important part of our lives, especially because it has both tangible and intangible values. I don’t think that, as a society, we have put more focus and attention on this very important aspect. Thanks.
Mr[nm43] M KHAWULA: Chair, hon Minister, the municipalities have either been reluctant or refusing to get into memoranda of agreements with the Department of Arts and Culture with respect to these arts centres because they have been claiming that these are unfunded mandates. I would like to know if that has been taken care of in your plan so that municipalities are able to get into agreements with your department. Thanks.
The[nm44] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, our emphasis on arts and culture is mainly production because if you just take a step back and look at what we have produced as a country in the field of arts and culture in particular, you will realise that most of those greats today were trained or emerged from our townships in community halls, multipurpose centres and so on.
We want to put more emphasis on the actual product of what we want to see at the end of the day because we know, as reported by communities, that some of the community centres are white elephants. They are not being utilised and as a result we must start focusing particularly on those. Our plan is to focus on those communities where there is infrastructure, but that infrastructure is not being utilised. At the end of the day, we would be able to come up with the kind of people that we are going to be proud of as a nation because we have been there already. Thank you.
Mr[nm45] V E MTILENI: Chair, I just want to find out if the Minister is in a position to provide me with the exact number of cultural centres which are going to be constructed within this financial year and, if possible, also outline the places where these will be located.
Lastly, I would just like to caution on the sizes of the few that we know and that they are not of good standard. So, I just want to know if they are looking into that. I will be glad if you can respond to this question. Thank you.
The[nm46] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The few which do what?
Mr[nm47] V E MTILENI: You will find that the few cultural centres that are in place in most of the provinces are below standard. Perhaps I can give an example of stadiums where you will find that they are far from being called stadiums, they’ve got small grounds.
The[nm48] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, order, hon members! Hon Mtileni, I find it quite difficult because your supplementary question seems to be a new question. The second part of your supplementary question requires statistics insofar as the response is concerned. I will have to determine from the hon Minister if he will be prepared to take that question, but ordinarily, I would make a ruling that it is a new question. The Minister would guide us. On the second part that needs statistics; I think it would be unfair to the Minister to give statistics on some of the issues.
Mr[nm49] V E MTILENI: We take it that they are working with these things everyday, so they probably could provide answers. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, will you take your seat.
Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, Chair.
The[nm50] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, the member will be furnished with the details regarding the question he has asked, but the difficult question that I am trying to grapple with is the one which says: Have you supplied me. I don’t know who this “me” is who is being referred to. That’s a very difficult question, but as for the others, we will supply information. [Laughter.]
The[nm51] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Perhaps, to assist the member, I would advise the member to submit the question in writting and then list the issues that he wants to be supplied with answers for. I suspect that will be the “me” now. There are no further supplementary questions. That takes us to Question 30 asked by the hon Van Lingen.
QUESTION 30
QUESTION 29
Question[nm52] 30:
The[nm53] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chairperson, the answer to the question is: Yes, the department has developed an integrated user asset management plan in accordance with the Government Immovable Asset Management Act, Act 19 of 2007. The department will be finalising the integrated management plan which will include all the projects in 2014-15 and 2015-16 financial years and beyond.
y department has committed itself into expanding infrastructure within the next five years, which includes, amongst other things, building of libraries and community arts centres, which will also serve as incubators for new artists. During the current term of this fifth democratic administration, 95 new libraries will be constructed. In the current financial year alone up to 19 new libraries will be built and 45 existing libraries will be upgraded. Most of these libraries are built in close proximity to schools in order to alleviate the need for school libraries. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Ms[nm54] E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, with regard to the special projects in the integrated programme, I have actually asked which projects will be developed but there was no response to that question. I also want to know if the libraries are being equipped with books or not? I am asking this because we find that there are libraries in the provinces but have no books. Thank you.
The[nm55] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, well, if the member was following as I was reading the response here she would have heard that I did indicate the number. If the member wants specific names, she will get that. She must also understand that the libraries are the competency of the provinces. She must be clear and know that from a national point, there are grants for libraries which are given to provinces. So, this is a question which would need to be probed first, if I look where the member comes from; it looks like the member comes from the Eastern Cape. She can interact with the authorities there in the Eastern Cape, particularly on this matter. But, with regard to specific names of these projects, she will get those. Thank you.
Ms[nm56] L L ZWANE: Deputy Chairperson, I just wish to know from the Minister whether, in the process of rolling out these projects in terms of the strategic integrated projects, SIPs, the rolling out will be biased towards those who were historically disadvantaged?
The[nm57] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chairperson, you would know that we have place more emphasis on those areas which were historically disadvantaged. We came here in the Western Cape and a month after being given the responsibility; we opened the very first library in Mossel Bay. We specifically went to those areas which have not had libraries in the past. But, we made it a point that when we build these libraries in those historically disadvantaged areas, they are built in close proximity with the schools, especially schools in the townships and in the rural areas where there are people who always find it difficult to go to cities and towns, unlike for those people who find it easier to go to libraries. So, there would be that very biasness, hon Comrade Deputy Chairperson. [Laughter.]
Mr[nm58] L G MOKOENA: Deputy Chairperson, I was hoping that we would delve more into the functionalities of those libraries. But, my question is: Would it not be more prudent for the Department of Arts and Culture to play a more consultative role with regard to these libraries and leave the implementation - the actual building of these structures to the Human Settlements and the Land Reform? I am asking this question purely because we seem to be concentrating on these structures and we are not concentrating on the actual arts. There are labour and equity issues to be dealt with which we have not dealt with purely because of that. Is it not because the director-general is a special planning person?
The[nm59] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That also seems to be a new question to the Minister, but Hon Minister ... No, no, you do not have to frown, do not stress.
The[nm60] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chairperson, how do I start with this one? You know, we should not create the wrong impression that libraries are less important. We should neither create the impression that the campaign which the government has of ensuring that the nation reads and learns is just a peripheral matter. It is a serious matter. It is a matter which needs to be concentrated on. And, we are going to concentrate on it because all others will follow if we do not take this matter seriously.
At the beginning of this month - the first week of this month was the Book Week. We want to remind members that we looked at the statistics in our country which revealed that our society is not a reading nation. We must take this as a campaign. It is as serious as any other matter which we are dealing with. In any event, the Arts and Culture does not deal with one aspect of our work; all aspects of our work are important and all of these aspects have their own programmes which we are dealing with.
I think if members want to be taken seriously they should not just come up with some personal things here about what the director-general does or what his profession is, and so on. This just shows the level of discussion and the decorum of this forum has to be raised to a point where it is supposed to be. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon Minister. I take it that that brings us to the end of supplementary questions and we shall proceed... is that a supplementary question?
Mr[nm61] L G MOKOENA: No, it is a point of order, Deputy Chairperson.
The[nm62] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what?
Mr[nm63] L G MOKOENA: I am not sure, but I suspect that the hon Minister has just accused me of being personal with someone.
The[nm64] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he did not!
Mr[nm65] L G MOKOENA: Okay, if he did not then it’s fine. [Interjections.]
The[nm66] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he did not!
Mr[nm67] L G MOKOENA: Okay, if he did not, then it is fine.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he did not. I am telling you; he did not.
Mr L G MOKOENA: I thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much.
QUESTION 75
QUESTION 30
Question[nm68] 75:
The[nm69] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the reply to the question asked by the hon Mampuru is: Recognising that the arts sector requires assistance in the development of strong representative body to represent the interests of artists, my department is supporting, materially and otherwise, the establishment of a cultural and Creative Industry Federation of South Africa, Cifsa. This umbrella body working across all subsectors aims at uniting existing fragmented structures with focus on improving social security for artists and promoting skills development, amongst others.
Research and policy development will be a key focus of the federation and as such the need for any analysis of the working conditions in the sector will be referred to the interim leadership of the federation with an aim of referring all others to the launched structure which is supposed to happen this year. I thank you.
Sepedi[nm70] :
Moh T K MAMPURU: Motlatšamodulasetulo, ga ke na potšišo ya go latela. Ke re ge nkabe ke itirela, ke be ke tlile gore: Bauba ‘a Ngwato, ke nwele a mokgako, pelo ya ka ke ye tšhweu. Ke opa diatla. Ke a leboga.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Any supplementary question? That was just a compliment. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Is that a point of order hon Mtileni?
Mr[nm71] V E MTILENI: It is not a point of order ...
Xitsonga[nm72] :
...a ndzi twanga nchumu eka leswi swi vuriwaka. Eka Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi vula leswaku eka leswi a swi hlamuseriwa hi Mhani Mampuru a ndzi twanga nchumu. Ndzi kombela ku tolokeriwa leswaku ndzi ta kota ku swi twisisa.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Hon members, just use the facilities that you are provided with.
Mr[nm73] V E MTILENI: Mine is not working.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it not working?
Mr[nm74] V E MTILENI: No.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright, we will then ... [Interjections.] ... no, in actual fact, the hon member was complimenting the Minister on what he said in his response and congratulating and encouraging the Minister to do even better on what he is doing.
Ms[nm75] L L ZWANE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I just wish to know from the Minister what conduit do the performing artists use to communicate their ideas, frustrations and challenges in their industry to the Ministry or to the Department of Arts and Culture? Thank you.
The[nm76] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chair, they have been very direct with the department and the Ministry as and when they come across challenges in their workspaces. I just want to say that some work still needs to be done, particularly for the sector. The regulation and the regulatory framework within the sector need to be strengthened as it were because this is one sector which is more vulnerable today maybe as compared to other sectors. If you look, for instance, at the farm workers and domestic workers and so on, to some level, there has been a very concentrated regulation and even framework of how to interact with the sector and the determination of how the sector works.
So, a lot of work has to be done here, and with our work in finalising the review of the White Paper, we see this as having to form basis of ensuring that from a regulatory point of view, we address this vulnerable sector. Anyone comes and do whatever they want to do within the sector in an arrogant way, precisely because, firstly, there is fragmentation in the sector and we have said that one of the things we are doing to deal with the fragmented nature of the sector is the formation of this umbrella body, Cifsa.
Secondly, we still have to ensure that as we finalise the White Paper, we take on board the aspirations and interests of practitioners in the sector. Thank you.
QUESTION 87
QUESTION 75
Question[nm77] 87:
The[nm78] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, I will try to sum up the question asked by hon Suka, but we are going to give him the rest of the response. The reply is that currently and under the auspices of the framework of the collaboration agreement with the Department of Basic Education, my department supports the following programmes which are executed jointly by the two departments: firstly, the SA Schools Choral Eisteddfod; and secondly, the procurement of African indigenous toolkits and capacity-building workshops for educators. This has been done in different provinces. Currently, it targets educators from provinces such as Limpopo, Gauteng, North West and Mpumalanga. In the year 2015-16, we will be expanding it to the Northern Cape, Western Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape; thirdly, the theatre in education project; fourthly, the artist in schools project; and finally, the arts and culture career guidance publication.
Over the next five years, we shall be piloting several creative arts incubators across the country. These will be the hotbeds for cultural entrepreneurship and will democratise access to tools of production. These will be the sites that we as government will encourage for the creation of local content. This is part of the Mzansi Golden Economy strategy which seeks to expand supply and work opportunities; grow audiences; transform the colonial heritage landscape; collect relevant data to inform policy direction; and develop artists to be economically self-reliant. The incubators will enable us to measure the output of locally developed content in terms of music, artworks, films and stage productions, amongst other artistic endeavours. I thank you.
IsiXhosa:[nm79]
Mnu L SUKA: Sekela Sihlalo, mandiyibulele le mpendulo ivela kuMphathiswa ngokwentsebenziswano yakhe kunye neSebe lezeMfundo esiSiseko. Into endifuna ukuyiqonda kule ntsebenziswano yakhe noMpathiswa wezeMfundo esiSiseko, yinto yokuba le nto kuthiwa yikharityhulam ayidunyiswa ncam into yokuba kuphuhle le talente yaba bantwana koko ihamba ihambe ide iphelele esithubeni. Ingaba ikhona na indlela yokuyiphuhlisa le ntsebenziswano phakathi kwaba Baphathiswa babini ukwenzela ukuba abantwana bethu bazi ukuba xa bangenamandla okufunda izibalo, baya kubanawo amandla okwenza umculo okanye izifundo zobugciza, njalo njalo? Ndifuna ukuqonda loo ntsebenziswano ukuba iyaphuhliseka na?
UMPHATHISWA WEZOBUGCISA NENKCUBEKO[nm80] : Ewe Sekela Sihlalo, loo ntsebenziswano iyenzeka nophuhliso luyabonakala.
English[nm81] :
This year alone we will be dispatching 240 artists to different schools. As we said, some of the schools are still teaching arts and culture as per the curriculum. In those schools, we have artists who are working to ensure that – precisely as the hon member said – there is a hunger for arts and culture education. We believe if we focus more on that, we will be on the correct trajectory as a country, to ensure that we unleash the economic potential of the sector itself.
Even now, people don’t have a clear understanding of what the arts and culture sector contributes to the gross domestic product, GDP, even though there are some initial studies which have been conducted. Our people interact ... we have an event which was called the North Sea Jazz festival but which is known today as the Cape Town International Jazz Festival, and you will find people flocking here from all over the world; yet, the narrative that people will tell you is how good it is for tourism and all other things, yet forget that at the core of this is arts and culture. This is about arts and culture, and whatever you see after that came as a result of this very important sector.
So, we as government would want to see our relationship grow, particularly with the Department of Basic Education.
We want to see the expansion of arts and culture education so that it is accessible to all our kids, and so that we prepare them from that level. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 93
QUESTION 87
Question[nm82] 93:
The[nm83] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, the answer to the question is as follows. Matters pertaining to intellectual property compliance and enforcement lie within the mandate of the Department of Trade and Industry. In recognising that the creative sector is negatively impacted upon by these illegal activities, my department along with the SA Police Service, customs and the private sector, is working with the Department of Trade and Industry.
The primary focus of these activities is a national antipiracy campaign focusing on investigations, education, and the awareness of company and intellectual property law and compliance. The aim is to create a climate in which the purchase, sale or possession of counterfeit goods is actively discouraged and criminalised, and that intellectual property rights are respected and protected. Thank you.
Mr[nm84] M RAYI: Chair, I am satisfied with the response.
QUESTION 107
QUESTION 93
Question[nm85] 107:
The[nm86] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chair, the response to hon Mokoena is as follows. In terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, schedule 5(a), libraries, other than national libraries, are functional areas of exclusive provincial competence. My department funds the two national libraries, namely the National Library of SA with campuses in Pretoria and Cape Town, and the SA Library for the Blind in Grahamstown.
Since 2008, my department has co-ordinated policy interventions that will improve and develop the provision of public libraries in the entire country. We are currently prioritising the building of 19 new libraries in 2014-15 and the upgrading of 45 existing libraries. A percentage of the libraries are built in close proximity to schools to alleviate the need for libraries. Established libraries seem not to be properly functional as the sector was not sufficiently funded in the past, especially at municipal and provincial levels. I think hon Khawula raised this point earlier.
The conditional grant has made a huge impact so far, but the funding of the service is still not satisfactory. The sector experiences a shortage of appropriately qualified staff, and there is also a high turnover of qualified librarians, who move to better paying positions elsewhere or to other professions. There is also a great shortage of library material, especially in indigenous languages. The development of the Library and Information Services Transformation Charter, approved by the Department of Arts and Culture in 2014, aims to look beyond the existing barriers and to find innovative ways to fulfil this social mission. I thank you.
Mr[nm87] L G MOKOENA: Deputy Chair, the question of language in libraries was going to be my next question. Given the fact that we have not translated functional subjects into indigenous languages so that they are understood by kids in libraries, what is the department doing to translate these subjects, especially technical subjects, into the official indigenous languages? Thank you.
The[nm88] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: We have the Pan SA Language Board, PanSALB, whose responsibility it is to ensure that all the languages are promoted in all spheres of life, particularly those that have been marginalised in the past. As they have this particular responsibility, it means that they go everywhere, even to libraries themselves, because this is a serious matter to the department. This is one area that we as a democracy have perhaps not achieved what we should have over the past 20 years, in ensuring that, not only in relation to libraries but generally, the promotion and the preservation of other languages in our country - we have nine languages - reaches the stage where it should be. As the department we are attending to that matter even though there have been challenges in that regard. However, we are dealing with that, and it is inevitable that libraries would be affected. Thank you, Chair.
Ms[nm89] L L ZWANE: Deputy Chairperson ...
IsiZulu[nm90] :
...singathanda ukuzwa kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi izikhathi zokusebenza kwalezi zikhungo ziyasivuna yini isimo sabantu abasebenzayo ngoba phela omunye umuntu angafisa ukufinyelela esikhungweni ngemuva kwezikhathi zomsebenzi. Umbuzo wami-ke uthi: Ingabe izikhathi zokuvula nokuvala kwalezi zikhungo ziyasivuna na isimo sabasebenzi? Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.
English:
The[nm91] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: This is a matter which will always be raised because the areas are not the same, and sometimes even the opening and closing times of libraries are not the same. In some instances, there have been reasons advanced for these shortcomings. One of the reasons in particular instances relates to some communities that are affected by the lack of safety. However, in other areas, people have been able to reach and utilise libraries, and this has not raised any major problems. It is a resource that we would want to be more accessible, given what we said earlier on with regard to our statistics, having launched the book week and detailing the shortcomings as it relates to how our people are friends of, or not friends of books themselves. It becomes a very important area of our work. We would urge members, wherever they go, to promote libraries, reading and learning; it+ is going to help us. You would recall that this year we have dubbed book week as, Going Places. If we are friends with books we can go places, both literally and otherwise, precisely because books are a fountain of knowledge. This is where we are going to have this wealth to pass on to younger generations. Thank you.
IsiXhosa[nm92] :
Nksz T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Enkosi kakhulu, Sihlalo. Ndicela ukuqonda kuMphathiswa ukuba ingaba abantu abakhubazekileyo kula mathala eencwadi balungiselelwe njani ukubakhusela ukuba bangasetyenziswa gwenxa kwaye bafunde ngokukuko.
English:
The[nm93] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chair ...
IsiZulu[nm94] :
... lungu elihloniphekile lale Ndlu abantu abakhubazekile, njengoba wazi, uhulumeni unemithetho ayibekayo yokuthi izakhiwo esizenzayo azikubeke phambili lokhu ngoba into ebalulekile kakhulu ukuthi zonke izakhiwo eziphathelene nohulumeni ...[Ubuwelewele.} ...
IsiXhosa[nm95] :
Nksz T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Bendingatsho ngokuphathelele kwizakhiwo, Mphathiswa, bendisitsho ngokuphathalele ekufundeni.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, who gave you the opportunity to speak? [Laughter.] Proceed hon member.
IsiZulu[nm96] :
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUCIKO NAMASIKO[nm97] : Izakhiwo lezi zibalulekile uma sibuka indaba yabantu abakhubazekile kufuneka sibuke sisabalale. Sibuke lapho bengena khona ezindaweni ukuthi ziyavuma njengala ePhalamende. Bese sibuka futhi iphuzu lokuvikeleka kwabo njengabanye abantu emphakathi wethu. Ilungu elihloniphekile lizokwazi ukuthi uhulumeni unezinhlelo anazo zokubhekelela abantu ukuthi abaxhashazwa noma abagetshengwa ezindaweni la behlala khona ngokohlelo lweqoqo lezokuphepha nokuvikela kuleli lizwe lakithi elaziwa ngokuthi i-Security Cluster. Ngiyabonga.
English:
Ms[nm98] T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to check with the hon Minister whether the department will be able to ensure that the issue of transferring staff from his department to municipalities renders libraries effective. As the department, how is the Minister going to improve to make sure that the running of libraries is implemented effectively?
The[nm99] MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chair, as we said we can only co-operate with the provinces. Ours is to assist with the grants, particularly in ensuring that we have libraries, but this a provincial competency. However, we are not only looking at it as a provincial competency. That is why we are coming closer, but any other thing with regard to the skills, the transfer and everything else, will always be utilised on the basis of the intergovernmental relations we have with other spheres of government in the provinces, local and so on. Thank you.
QUESTION 32
QUESTION 107
Question[nm100] 32:
The[nm101] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chairperson, the question asks whether we will have competency tests for our markers in 2014. The answer no – we will not do competency tests this year for our markers. Provinces will use the quality assurance methods that they have been using. In Gauteng, for instance, we are using teachers’ performance in terms of their own learners in schools, as well as different quality indicators.
The question further asks why we have not done competency tests. The answer is that we have developed a tool which we are still testing in terms of its reliability and validity. We are also consulting on it, and we do hope that by next year, we will be able to apply the tool. For 2014, we won’t be using the tool. Thank you.
Mr[nm102] J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, it is actually a follow-up question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, it is.
Mr[nm103] J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Minister. The Western Cape is the only province that is fully implementing marker competency tests for matric markers. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected, hon Julius.
Mr[nm104] J W W JULIUS: I cannot even hear myself. [Laughter.] I think I will start from the beginning and repeat what I said. The Western Cape is the only province that is fully implementing marker competency tests for matric markers. This is despite the fact the Minister herself committed to the implementation of competency tests by 2013 and the fact that Umalusi strongly recommended the introduction thereof at the beginning of 2013.
Will the Minister commit to a date in the near future? 2014? 2015? 2016? It was already said that the Minister committed to a date last time – I am not sure by December when, which year. With this in mind...
Afrikaans:
... hoe sal die Minister verseker dat merkers wat nie die bevoegdheidstoets slaag nie ... hoe sal sy verseker dat hierdie merkers nie in die toekoms ons leerders se vraestelle merk nie? Dankie. [... how will the Minister ensure that markers who fail the competency test ... how will she ensure that these markers do not mark our learners’ examination papers in future? Thank you.]
English:
The[nm105] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I think the member is quite right. However, I think he should also appreciate that competency tests are one of the many other tools you use to assess the competency of your markers. I have just indicated that in Gauteng, for instance, they use learner performance and the teachers’ results. There is always screening of markers. They do not just walk into an examination centre.
He is quite right. The Western Cape did not wait for my permission, meaning that if I have to implement a competency test, I have to do it with concurrence. That is why they did not wait for my concurrence – the concurrence of provinces. So, we are working with provinces. I am saying that we have finalised a tool, and therefore, as the Western Cape has gone its own way of using its own test, I have to consult and work with other provinces on the implementation of a tool that is also acceptable to them. It is not dependent on me alone, and that is why the Western Cape was able to do it without me.
QUESTION 35
QUESTION 32
Question[nm106] 35:
The[nm107] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chairperson, the second question refers to issues of quintiles. The answer is that the South African public ordinary schools are placed in one of the five categories of quintiles – Quintiles 1 to 3, which are poor schools and Quintiles 4 and 5, which are schools that can afford to pay. Quintiles 1 to 3 constitute no-fee schools. Quintiles 4 and 5 are fee-paying schools.
The member is correct that in some instances the determination of quintiles has been dependent on school infrastructure and the location, whilst in the school, you could find poor kids who cannot afford to pay fees. So, the review effectively has been completed, and we will use that tool to delink the poverty ranking of schools by using the profile of learners to say, yes, indeed, these school learners can afford to pay or cannot afford to pay. Again, it is a process we have to work through with provinces because it is informed by provincial budgets. What finally happens is what provinces can afford from their budgets, but the tool has been finalised to guide provinces.
Mr[nm108] M CHETTY: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for the answer. My follow-up would be the following. When a learner transfers from a Quintile 1 to 3 primary school to a Quintile 4 secondary school, that has an effect on the Grade 8 dropout rate due to the financial constraints.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I do not know ... Madam, did you get the question? Alright.
The[nm109] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson and hon member, in addition to quintiling the entire school, there are also provisions in the system that allow indigent learners to be exempted from fees if they go to a fee-paying school. So, you could go to a poor school in Soweto and get admitted to, for instance, a rich school in a rich suburb. Then there is also provision to exempt learners from fees, so it should not affect them. The quintiling is for the majority of schools in terms of location, and it is determined in conjunction with Statistics SA to say which areas are declared poor areas. Then the school is quintiled in that way. In some instances, where the majority of kids move ... or many kids being domestic workers’ ... or maybe there is an informal settlement next to a very affluent area, then we profile the majority of learners, which enables us to declare whether the school is a no-fee school. For now, it is really being influenced mainly by the declarations of which areas are determined nationally as poor areas. You can with your status go to an affluent area and be exempted from fees.
Ms[nm110] L L ZWANE: Deputy Chairperson, is the Minister in a position to clarify or inform the public to what extent this government has assisted learners in benefiting from no-fee schools? How many learners are benefiting from this type of system? Thank you.
The[nm111] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chair, we have been extremely ... I think even other countries on the continent always express their surprise at how we have been able to exempt the majority of learners from paying fees. Out of every 10 learners, eight are in no-fee schools. So, more than nine million kids are in no-fee schools. There are very few learners who pay fees. Even for kids who are in fee-paying schools there is a mechanism to assist them. So, if a family, say a domestic worker or a gardener, is in an affluent area, they are also assisted, and those we are not counting to the system. Currently, there are more than nine million kids who are not paying fees. As I said, in this system, eight out of 10 learners are not paying fees and are getting a state subsidy. So, it is a huge contribution that South Africans have made towards poor and indigent families. Thank you.
Ms[nm112] C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, I just want a question of clarity. I want to know whether the Minister – and I am sorry if I missed it – answered part two of the question, which is whether the department has any proposed plans and timeframes for implementing the new financial model based on the expected findings of the review and if not, why not and, if so, what are the relevant details in each case. If the Minister did answer that, I apologise.
Then I would also want to ask a follow-up question, but I want to know whether the Minister answered the second part.
The[nm113] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chair, let me read the question. Then my reply will be much easier. The question says whether we have ... as I said, we have developed a framework which guides provinces. We have reviewed the allocations and the following has been proposed to delink schools’ allocation from its quintile ranking. That is what I just explained. Even if it is in an affluent area but the majority of learners are poor in terms of profiling, then it also qualifies, even if it is in an affluent area. Fee-paying schools should not be determined based on the location.
We progressively equalise the school allocation for all existing no-fee schools. Currently, we have Quintile 1 to 3, which are no-fee schools, paying, and some of them are in the same locality because they are all declared poor areas. The process is with provincial funds allowing ... it is to say all no-fee schools, so there is no difference between Quintiles 1, 2, and 3. All of them are no-fee schools. In your fee-paying schools, it should be equalised so that you do not have the difficulty of saying that a school this side is in Quintile 3, but they are in the same locality. That has been one of the complications. So, there is also voluntary classification in certain Quintile 4 and 5 schools.
If you agree to be a no-fee school, you cannot charge fees. Sometimes schools find that the subsidy is not what they want. Therefore they request, as governing bodies, to become a fee-paying school so that they can charge higher fees than what they are allocated by the state. So, the equalisation of the school allocation of no-fee schools has been implemented, and now additional funding has been secured to make sure that your no-fee schools have a flat rate and that your fee-paying schools have a flat rate. The fee-paying school can request to be exempted if the governing body so wishes. I am not sure, member, whether that answers your question. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Matebus? Just hold on, hon Matebus.
Ms[nm114] C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, the Minister gave me the answer that she already gave. May I ask a follow-up question on that? That was the original answer that she gave.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright, ask your follow-up question.
Ms[nm115] C LABUSCHAGNE: Minister, thank you very much for the answer. I think we are all in agreement that this is a step forward in education. I would just like to know the following: In the delinking of the schools, what would happen, and how do you foresee that you, as the Minister, would handle it at the national level, if the provinces cannot afford the delinking of schools on a large scale in each province?
The[nm116] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chair, we do not expect it to be massive because some of these affluent areas are fully occupied areas. If you take an area like Bishops Court, there is a limited chance that there would be an influx of people who cannot afford to pay. So, the delinking will not be huge. It is just that in some areas – for example in Gauteng – where it used to be an affluent area, or not even an affluent area. Because of settlements that have grown close to those schools and kids who have flocked to the area in large numbers, it has become necessary for us to delink that. From the requests that are coming, there is not huge flooding because most of these affluent areas are fully occupied areas, so there is no chance that people can really move there in large numbers and therefore request this exemption. However, we are ready to create space for those fee-paying schools that find themselves incorrectly quintiled.
What a province does is to look at the entire cake, because it is up to them to accept, and to cut it within the lines of what we have set as norms and standards. So, it really also depends on whether the province is able to move faster or not. It also has the right to say to a school that it will only recognise the school at a particular stage so that budgets can be sorted out. Again, it depends on whether the province is able to do it, but we do not expect flooding from the requests we have seen in the last five years.
Mr[nm117] M A MATEBUS: Deputy Chair, it is a clarity-seeking question to the Minister. Is there anything wrong with government schools – a reason why the Ministers do not want to risk their children’s futures there? [Laughter.] Is there anything wrong with government schools if the Ministers do not even want to risk their children’s futures at the schools?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a follow-up question. That is more of a political question than a follow-up question.
Mr[nm118] M A MATEBUS: It is a clarity-seeking question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, it is a political question. [Interjections.] It is not ... you do not have to respond, Minister.
The[nm119] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, that is a question from the EFF on which I will give you full clarity. It is also about that. He is clearly concerned about that so that is a question that relates to whether I have a child in school, so I am going to clarify that I do not have a school-going child. So, it is coming.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hold it, hon Matebus!
QUESTION 36
QUESTION 35
Question[nm120] 36:
The[nm121] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chair, the question is about history and third languages in schools. The answer is that we indeed regard history as a very important subject that is very relevant to the lives of our children. We also want to say that South African history is part of the social science in Grades 4 to 9. However, we also have history as an elective subject in the national curriculum for Grades 10 to 12 because there is the impression that we are not teaching history at all. We would really like members to go and look at our curriculum to see that we are teaching history. You can now specialise in history only in the further education and training, FET, phase.
Because of the request, we are also conducting research in respect of offering history as a compulsory subject so that when you are in the FET phase, even if you choose mathematics and science, you are also then expected to do history. We are investigating this to really see whether it is necessary. I have a ministerial task team that will guide us on whether it is necessary to have history as a compulsory subject for all learners, despite the fact that we are teaching some aspects of South African history in the lower grades. There is an element of what people are concerned about in the life orientation subject, which is done by every child. This includes citizenship, and all those matters are in the curriculum. We are investigating so that we can guide people – or maybe we can agree with them on what needs to happen.
On the point of the introduction of the third language to schools and implementing it as a policy, if members recall, we are piloting the implementation of indigenous languages in schools. We do want all South African kids to speak one indigenous language. If you are in a school that teaches English and Afrikaans, you also would have to take Sepedi, Tswana, or isiZulu. So, we have done it. We are piloting. We are going to start implementing because we needed 2014 to develop the instruments to train the teachers but also to understand what the difficulties are. We are finalising the implementation plans, developing the learner-teacher support material, LTSM, from the pilot, and we will start phasing in an additional indigenous language from Grade 1 next year.
These are limited schools because the majority of schools which are predominantly African schools will have an African language, for instance, and a third additional language. The schools that would be affected are very few; they are Model C schools. Again, people sometimes think it is a huge thing, but it is really to target other learners who have not had the opportunity to study an indigenous language. We will be phasing it in from next year. Because it is a costly exercise – we have train teachers as we do not have enough – we will phase in until 2016 when we will reach Grade 12, with all South African children learning a third, indigenous language. Thank you.
Mr[nm122] W F FABER: Deputy Chair, through you to the Minister: How would these teachers be trained for the third language? Will the third language teachers then be offered permanent positions at schools?
The[nm123] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, we are currently training them. We have trained the cohort. We are working out what numbers we have. We have partnerships with the universities to do that. If you are aware, most universities have closed down departments of African languages, and that is also why the phasing in must really be managed properly. There is now a lack of implementation, which is not dependent on us. We have agreements with certain universities to help us with the rolling out.
We are looking at different methods. Depending on the size of the school, we might have roving teachers, if it is going to happen, because you might find that the teacher does not have enough lessons per school. If there are five grades, the teacher will only have five hours, compared to others. That is what the pilot was supposed to inform us about, in terms of grades – grade by grade. In some instances, if it is big schools, we do think that those teachers would be accommodated as part of the staff complement. Indeed, we are looking at creating a bid to Treasury to make sure that we can fund posts.
Again, that has not been finally resolved, as we finalise the planning this year. Last year, we did the pilot. We understand what the difficulties are. We really are trying to address the challenges we have identified. We will be coming with the final picture because we have to start rolling out next year.
Ms[nm124] T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I just want to know from the Minister whether she does not think that her department is not complying with the Act concerning the usage of indigenous languages because there is a timeframe and regulations in terms of implementation of the languages, especially African languages, in all public institutions.
The[nm125] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I am not aware of any Act. I am even consulting the former MEC about whether there is an Act somewhere. I am really not aware, honestly. I might have to ... we are not basing our work on the Act; we are basing it on the plans that we have made as a department, saying that it would be desirable to have African languages taught at school to learners who have not been learning African languages. So, the Act, I do not know. Maybe the member can cite it and say which Act it is, but I am not sure which Act she refers to.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Perhaps the member will in future put a question that deals directly with that matter because her supplementary time has expired.
Ms[nm126] L L ZWANE: Chairperson, I just wish to know from the Minister whether there would be any relationship between the introduction of the indigenous language and the medium of instruction.
The[nm127] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, no. The incremental introduction of indigenous languages is a different process. Its objective is to ensure that all South African kids can speak one of the 10 indigenous languages. I must say that it includes Afrikaans as a South African indigenous language.
Regarding the medium of instruction, it is a completely different policy, whereby we are saying that ... the Constitution says that communities have the right of instruction in the language of their choice, depending on the affordability and the feasibility by the state. Currently, there are mainly two languages of instruction, which are African languages and English. The majority of our learners – almost 96% of them who are mainly African – have their indigenous languages as the medium of instruction up to Grade 3. When they get to Grade 4, they either take English or Afrikaans as their medium of instruction. So, what we do in order to prepare them for that Grade 4 jump is to start teaching them the language that is the likely language of choice from Grade 1. However, there are different policies and different processes.
Mr[nm128] D STOCK: Chairperson, I want to agree with the Minister when she says that history plays a very significant role in the lives of our young people. I just want to know from your, hon Minister, why do you think that history is important to be included as part of the curriculum? Thank you.
The[nm129] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the member is speaking to a history teacher. I think it is very important for any nation to know where it comes from. So, I can list all the benefits of history, but the current debate is whether we should teach history as a compulsory subject in all phases. That is what we say we are investigating because in the lower phases, every child is exposed to South African history.
In the FET phase, and that is where the debate is, there is a push that we should even teach history as a compulsory subject. We are saying then the curriculum would be loaded, because you have kids who want to do science. There are kids who want to do general. There are kids who want to do commercial. So, if you now add history as an additional compulsory subject, and that is what we are being called on to do, at the FET phase, is it necessary? It is not in terms of the value of the subject. We all agree that it is very important, that it is good for patriotism, that it is good for our kids to know where they come from. It is good for value because anybody who doesn’t know where he or she comes from cannot have a sense of where to go.
We also have some element of what people are concerned about in the life orientation curriculum. Maybe we should get people to look at what we have in the curriculum and to see whether it does not address the concerns that they have around patriotism and understanding where they come from. There is also an element of things that bother them in the life orientation curriculum. Sometimes I think people have not had the opportunity to look through the curriculum and the topics and to see what they are concerned about, whether it is not covered. The value of history is undeniable. It is an extremely helpful and very important subject for every citizen in every country in the world.
QUESTION 80
QUESTION 36
Question[nm130] 80:
The[nm131] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, with regard to education professionals, there is a commission that the President has established to review the remuneration and the conditions of service of public servants which is led by the Department of Public Service and Administration. They have been doing a lot of work around it, so, it is not in our purview.
The commission has been asked to investigate the conditions and the wages of civil servants with teachers being the first group to be prioritised. It is up to the commission itself to make recommendations on matters like salary adjustment and wage increase. We will hear from the commission, but it is doing the work and is under the Minister of Public Service and Administration. Thank you.
The CHIEF[nm132] WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chair of the NCOP ...
Sepedi[nm133] :
... ke leboga karabo ye Tona ya rena e e filego. E re bontšha gore taba ya gore barutiši ba bana ba hlwe mekgotheng, ba belaetšwa ke megolo ya bona ge ditaba di padile ka kua Ngwakong wa dipoledišano, e tla ba histori. Re leboga kudu. Ke tshepa gore batswadi ba bana Afrika-Borwa ka bophara ba tla kwa karabo ye Tona a e fago ya gore ga go sa tlo nyakega gore barutiši ba ye mekgotheng ge ba nyaka gore megolo ya bona e hlatlošwe. Re a leboga.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Dr Mateme does not have a supplementary question, she made a comment. She was within her two minutes. She used one minute for that. Is there any other member who has a supplementary question?
Ms[nm134] C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, I want to know if the Minister would consider an audit of educators’ professional qualifications as part of relooking and reviewing their salaries. If not, why?
The[nm135] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, this is an unrelated matter, but I don’t mind answering it. It has nothing to do with the conditions of service. We have completed the profile of all of our educators with the purpose of ensuring that we are able to have the right teacher in the right place and be able to deploy them appropriately. Indeed, there was a huge mismatch between the qualifications of teachers and sometimes the areas they were teaching.
We have given the teachers’ profiles to the provinces. The provinces will have to try to match them in terms of the schools, classes and their experience. It is a very important exercise because it helps us to deal with this mismatch which was a problem and also the skewed allocation of teachers where in some schools there won’t be a maths teacher whereas in other schools there are three maths teachers. It really helped us to match properly. The provinces will have to implement the profiling that we have done.
Mr[nm136] V E MTILENI: Madam Chair, my follow-up question is still on the commission. I am happy that the Minister partly answered this one but since the dawn of this democracy we have had many commissions in this country and there is nowhere we have heard of any commission releasing its findings. I just want to know if we could be assured that the findings of this one are going to be released. Thank you.
The[nm137] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, this comrade whistled in the NA, but that is a different matter. I can assure you that the commissions we have conducted, most of them have always given us feedback. Maybe you are relating your experience with other departments. We have established a commission on maths and science and we are implementing the recommendations thereof. I can assure you that most of the commissions are good because they also inform and guide us on what people want or what the issues are. This is a very important commission; we also want to get the feedback from the commissions.
As hon member Hunadi has said, it is just for the stability of the sector so that we can have a common understanding about what we sometimes argue about with members about teachers’ salaries. It is always a big argument. That is why we said that teachers feel that their salaries are well out of line, but the government has been arguing that at entry level, it is in line with the qualifications and training they have. It might help to settle that part.
It will also find areas where there are difficulties because it is going to help us confirm some of the information we have that at some level, teachers’ salaries stagnate and that is where the frustrations start creeping in, where you find new entrants being at the same level with the teachers who have long been in the sector. We do need that feedback to be able to resolve most of the problems that have been bugging the sector. It is in our interest to get the report.
IsiZulu[nm138] :
Nk[nm139] L L ZWANE: Sihlalo, ngifisa nje ukubonga uNgqongqoshe ngokuthi aluthathele phezulu lolu daba lokubhekelela izimo abasebenza ngaphansi kwazo abasebenzi abasebenza ngaphansi koMnyango wezeMfundo eyiSisekelo kanye nokubhekelela nje ukuthi mhlawumbe imiholo yabo kanye nazo zonke izimali ezifanelekile zingabukezwa kanjani. Okunye Sihlalo, ngiyafisa ukwazi kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi mhlawumbe ikhomishana iyozibuyisa nini izimpendulo? Yize noma eseshilo ukuthi uMnyango weMisebenzi kaHulumeni nokuPhathwa Kwayo uhamba phambili kulolu daba. Kepha, mhlawumbe uNgqongqoshe angaba nalo ulwazi lokuthi sithini umnqmulajuqu wokuphothula lo mbiko uthini.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EYISISEKELO[nm140] : Cha, Sihlalo, ayibiki kimi le khomishana. [Uhleko.] Cha, ayibiki kimi ngakho angikwazi ngempela ukuthi ngingasho ukuthi le khomishana izozethula nini izimpendulo ngoba le khomishana ibika kuNgqongqoshe weMisebenzi kaHulumeni nokuPhathwa Kwayo. Njengoba ngishilo nje ukuthi nathi siyafuna ngempela ukuthi iphele le nto, ikakhulukazi ngoba sezizoqala izingxoxo zokukhushulwa kwemiholo. Lolu daba lungenye yezinto ezizohlupha ngenxa yokuthi asikakabi nazo izimpendulo.
Ngakho-ke, ngiyathemba ukuthi uNgqongqoshe weMisebenzi kaHulumeni nokuPhathwa Kwayo kanye noSihlalo weKhomishana bazokwazi ukuthula umbiko ngaphambi kokuba kuqale izingxoxo zokukhushulwa kwemihholo. Kodwa-ke angifuni ukuzibophezela kulokho ngoba angazi lutho mayelana nokuthi kusafanele kwenziweni, ngenxa yokuthi ayibiki kimi le khomishana kepha ibika kuNgqongqoshe weMisebenzi kaHulumeni nokuPhathwa Kwayo.
QUESTION 105
QUESTION 80
Question[nm141] 105:
The[nm142] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I think that member of the EFF can listen. That is the question that relates to what you were asking me. To really talk about the children of public service who use public schools, the Bill of Rights in Chapter 2 of the Constitution says people have a right to choose and it even says, the state can even subsidise private schools. I just want to add now that I have the floor. You know these private schools - I do not know why we really have to bother ourselves - make less than 5% of schooling. This means the public service is robust and people have lots of confidence in it.
Just in matric, they will present 10 000 learners and we are presenting 500 000. So, we are really comparing elephants to ants and then really want to debate over it. It is not an issue where people send their kids. Their Constitution allows them to do that. Public servants have a right to do it.
The second part of the question asked me if I have a child in the public school.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order members!
The[nm143] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, sadly, at my age I do not have a school-going child. On the other hand it says anybody nearby. Unfortunately I do not have grandchildren who would be the nearest members. So, I think many of the nephews and nieces go everywhere to where their parents send them but the ones that are directly related to me ... I do not have a school-going child, I do not have a grandchild and have nobody directly that would be in a private or public school. So, that is the answer.
Mr[nm144] M KHAWULA: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I wanted to know if the hon Minister said elephants and ants. That is unfair. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think hon Minister, in the defence of the ants, we accept. Hon members, hon Mathys is not here and it is supplementary time. Is there anybody with a supplementary question?
Ms[nm145] C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, I would like to know your opinion on the report that stated that South Africa is ranked 146 in the world out of 149 countries due to not being good in basic education. Is there a link between the findings of that report and the fact that private schools in South Africa are increasing year on year?
THE[nm146] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Again it is a new question, hon Labuschagne, but if the hon Minister wants to answer, she can go ahead.
The[nm147] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I have been answering this so many times about the work. I think I called the world education forum an opinion. So, we cannot speak about people’s perceptions in a country full of cynics. Let us use scientific information. We publish year on year scientific information. For instance, here we have Olympiads in the Western Cape where kids write tests and are marked internationally. We were the only African country that managed to even survive that gruelling test; it is a scientific test.
Go to any scientific instrument; we are not at the bottom, but really we have been saying this so many times that we cannot be at the bottom. That world economic forum is an opinion of six business people. So, why should I even speculate about six business people who are giving their opinions?
In terms of private schools that are increasing, I have to say again that we are speaking about statistics; I am saying we can give you the figures here. Private schools account for 4,9% of our schooling population, which is 21 000 kids. Your public schools constitute almost 95%, which is 12 million. I am not sure what we are comparing to say the private schools are increasing. I mean the 5%, even if they increase 10 times, it does not say anything. However, the fact of the matter is that the public sector is very robust. Lots of parents continue to have confidence in it and there is nothing wrong with private schools growing because, on the other hand, if they grow it means we are saving money for the public sector because in private schools rich families can pay and leave us with the money. If they were not in private schools, we would still pay for them.
So, there is nothing wrong with parents sending kids to private schools. Some is for religious purposes; some is for convenience from where you stay; and that is why the Constitution allows it. Some people, for religious purposes, want their kids in certain schools and the Constitution accommodates that.
Ms[nm148] T K MAMPURU: Hon Chair, I want to check with the hon Minister if public representatives have a role to play, that of societal transformation ...
THE[nm149] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, hon Mtileni, you are too far from the hon member for a chat. Thank you.
Ms T K MAMPURU: For a moment, I want to whip him. [Laughter.]
Ms[nm150] T K MAMPURU: I want to check with the hon Minister because public representatives have a societal transformation role to play. How can they assist in public schools?
Mr[nm151] V E MTILENI: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I just want to know if it is parliamentary for Madam Mampuru to point a finger at me. [Laughter.]
THE[nm152] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mampuru, are you through with your question?
Ms[nm153] T K MAMPURU: I am done hon Chair, and I request the hon Mtileni to sit down because I am the Provincial Whip. [Laughter.]
The[nm154] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, as I was saying, for us, kids in public schools continue to be South African kids and we value them the way we value kids in our public schools. That is why we work very closely with private schools. Currently, in order to increase the pipeline that we have in terms of teacher training to give them experiential training, we work with the association of private schools. They are tiny and therefore it is very for us to monitor the training.
We thought that if we plunge them into the public service, it will be very difficult to monitor their training. So, we work with them, especially because they are a very tiny sector and we are able to experiment through that sector or even to work with that sector on a programme that is as difficult as teacher training. So, we have as one of the programmes, the whole question of teacher training where private schools, through their association, partnered with us as the Department of Basic of Education to train teachers on their sides, supervise and monitor.
It is much easier to supervise and monitor through them because they are quite tiny. If you throw them into 24 000 of the schools you will not be able to monitor and manage the programme. So, we work very closely with them, support each other and have ongoing meetings with them. As I said, those are South African kids and the contribution that those schools make is well appreciated also because they contribute to the human resources of this country.
Ms[nm155] T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, it seems that we are not going to win this issue of encouraging public representatives to send their kids to public schools but we are going to perpetuate it. I want to check, listen.
THE[nm156] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order hon members, order. Address me hon Mokwele, do not address them.
Ms[nm157] T J MOKWELE: No, they are making noise.
THE[nm158] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Address me.
Ms[nm159] T J MOKWELE: Mama Cathy, hon Chair, please Mama Cathy! Hon Chair, I want to check with the hon Minister about the teacher-learner ratio that the government is using. Yes, I want to ask this question because my child is at the public school. So, the learner-child ratio ...
THE[nm160] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: This member is protected hon members, please; she is on the floor.
Ms[nm161] T J MOKWELE: I will do the same, do not worry. ... teacher-learner ratio to make sure that our public schools produce quality education. We are concerned about the quality that the public schools are producing for South Africans. Thank you very much.
The[nm162] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I am not sure about these public servants. I can speak about my own son who is at the university and who passed at the public school. So, I do not know about the public representatives. He came from Parktown Boys High School in Gauteng because I was working in Johannesburg and I used to drop him at school. That is where he passed.
The member here tells me that all his kids are in the public school. That is why we say we really are worried about things which are neither here nor there. The mere fact that 12 million kids of this country are in public schools means that people have confidence in the system - the mere fact is that his child got seven As from the public school ... My son got four As from the public school. [Applause.]
Now that you we are talking about our children, the success of the child is going to depend on the support ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, control it.
The[nm163] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I can pity the child of the mother who is busy chatting back. That child will not pass at the rate that the mother is going.
Ms T J MOKWELE: UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hayi, apologise Minister. But this member is ...
TheCHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please! Hon members, please accord us the respect! Hon Minister, I am sorry! Please continue.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I want to repeat the fact that the public education system is robust and if I had time, I would even explain to the member the advantages of bigger classes for preparing kids for institutions like universities where you have crowds in those classes. So, there are also educational values and principles of the class size.
We can also show the statistics that it is not the class size. It is not the class size that matters. Malaysia has one of the best education systems. Their class sizes are bigger than ours and they are doing quite well. So, the class size is not a determinant. So, we cannot be tying ourselves but I really want to say to the hon member, disabuse yourself of the fact that our kids go to private schools. All my kids, all four of them went to public schools.
The hon member is saying all his kids are in public schools. We should allow people the right to choose. If for religious purposes you want your kids in a religious school, that is fine, the law allows it. So, why do we have to worry about it and make it a big issue as if it affects the work that we are doing in public schools. The public schools are doing well, so you can trust us.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you hon Minister. Just for the record hon members, all my four daughters went to public schools. [Applause.] Hon Minister, one of them grew up in front of you and she is doing very well. She got 100% in the university in US and that means the basic grounding here at home was good.
We proceed hon members to a question which was raised ... yes, Mr Mtileni, is it a point of order?
Mr[nm164] V E MTILENI: Hon Chair, on a point of order, if you see some hullabaloos and some confusion, you know they start with the hon Dlamini. May you please send her out? [Laughter.]
THE[nm165] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dlamini, you are so scolded.
QUESTION 108
QUESTION 105
Question 108:
The[nm166] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I am quite happy to see the whistler calling other people to order because this hon man whistled in the NA. So, I think we are making progress.
On the norms and standards, there are no norms and standards ... [Interjections.]
The[nm167] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you on a point of order? What’s your point of order?
Ms[nm168] T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the Minister to call hon Mtileni a whistler? But, that is unparliamentary. [Laughter.]
The[nm169] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele ... hon Mtileni, please go where you wanted to go! Hon members, can we proceed? It is actually not unparliamentary, hon Mokwele, to call a whistler a whistler. Hon Mtileni did whistle in the Joint Sitting. Hon Minister, please proceed.
The[nm170] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, unfortunately and sadly, we have no national norms and standards for special schools in the entirety. As a department, we are in the process of developing funding norms for an inclusive system which includes norms for funding special schools as well and which does not really include all the entire area that we have to norm. Currently, provincial departments are provided with guidelines. So, we are using guidelines and not norms and standards, which sometimes provinces are not compelled to adhere to.
The SA School Act, Act 84 of 1996 makes provision for parents to apply for free exemption if they are unable to pay fees and this is applicable also to parents whose children are enrolled in special schools. The implementation of SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, regulations and guidelines is a provincial competency.
Provincial and district offices monitor and support schools on a regular basis for compliance issues as well as to track learner performance. The department has not received any complaint regarding this and will follow up with the provincial education departments on reported cases of noncompliance in this regard. Thank you, Chair.
Sepedi:
Moh[nm171] M C DIKGALE: Mohl Modulasetulo, ga ke na potšišo eupša ke na le tshwayatshwayo. Lehono, go tšwa go Tona, batswadi ba humane taba ya nnete; yeo ba bego ba sa e tsebe. Ba tla thoma go ntšha bana ba bona ka magae. Bao ba bego ba re “dikobo tša bona di magetleng” ba tla thoma go emaemela bana ba bona gore le bona ba kgone go ya sekolong. Re ya go leboga Tona. Tšwela pele ka mošomo wo mobotse wo o o dirago.
The[nm172] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I also fully appreciate the comments of the member and do admit that it is an area that needs lots of our attention, and I do commit that in this term we will give special schools special attention. We declared 2013 a special education year but still we have not done much of what needs to be done. We only addressed issues about sign language but really, there is still a lot that needs to be done in that sector. We can make an undertaking that we will ensure that those kids are also given an opportunity to really have quality and fruitful education.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Gaehler, I am always mispronouncing your name. You are one of the three members whom I mispronounce their names. Please bear with me!
IsiXhosa:
Mnu[nm173] L B GAEHLER: Hayi kufuneka siye kuphunga ikofu sobabini, uze ukwazi ukulibiza. [Kwahlekwa.] Enkosi Sihlalo. Xa usiya phaya ezilalini nakwiindawo ezininzi kuba buhlungu xa ubona aba bantwana bakhubazekileyo bengahambi sikolo kwaye bedinga. Ngoku ke Sihlalo umbuzo wam uthi, ingaba nilisebe, nikhe nayenza na le nto kuthiwa luphando. Uphando lokuba zingaphi na izikolo ezifunekayo zokunceda aba bantwana, kuba ibalulekileyo loo nto.
Kaloku uya kufamanisa ukuba aba bantwana bayaxhatshazwa, ngaba bantwana kuthiwa bayadlwengulwa, njalo njalo kuba kaloku abafundanga. Ukuba nilwenzile olo phando, ingaba ikhona imali ekhoyo kuhlalo-lwabiwo-mali lwenu yokwakha noba zizikolo zabo kulo nyaka okanye ikhona injongo yokuzakha kwiminyaka ezayo? Enkosi.
English:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, let me agree again with the member that it is an area that is highly neglected but also to just say the determination of schools and needs is a provincial competency. It is the province that has to map out where they need schools and where they need special schools. As I have said before, because we have not normed to say what are the norms and standards even in terms of requirement, we are only working on norming the funding. We have just not been monitoring it, but as members say, we do get lots of reports that something tighter needs to be done from national so that we are able to compel provinces to do that mapping itself because the declaration and determination of schools is the provincial competency. So, we do not determine where a school needs to come; it is a province that determines where schools need to be and which type of schools they need to have.
Ms[nm174] T J MOKWELE: I think this is my last question to the hon Minister. I just want to check if it is the responsibility of the Department of Basic Education to build a class or a building that can accommodate learners with special needs. Is it a competency of the Department of Basic Education or the Department of Public Works? I just want clarity on that. Thank you.
The[nm175] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, in the norms and standards that we have developed for school infrastructure, we have prescribed now how a school should accommodate children with special needs, especially those on wheelchairs. There is also a White Paper which says provinces have to begin to address the old schools which were built without that compliance. But, because it is very expensive, provinces just declared a certain number of schools in a vicinity to say, if there are kids on wheelchairs in especially areas like townships, then this is a school which has been designated to deal with children with special needs.
Then, kids with acute or more serious special needs have schools that are designed for them. If a school is for the blind, then from a word go, the architecture really is meant for them. The difficulties in the mixed schools where you have kids who do not have special needs coming to school with kids with special needs is that the school must be adapted for the needs of those learners with special needs.
It is only the new norms and standards which prescribe that the school must have ramps and special toilets for kids who are on wheelchairs; and if they have kids who are visually impaired what are the norms. So, it is new norms and standards but the old schools do not have those norms.
Ms[nm176] L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, my greetings to the hon Ministers. Before I ask my question I just want to congratulate hon Mtileni for honouring the President of the ANCWL by wearing the colours of the ANCWL. Congratulations! [Laughter.] Hon Chair, I just want to check ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni is protected.
Ms[nm177] L C DLAMINI: I just want to check the possibility of taking through the teachers, maybe not all of them in a school, on basic skills on sign language so that they can accommodate children who are not able to hear.
The[nm178] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I must also accept the compliment from my husband’s home province. I think that is why he is honouring me with the uniform. The answer is that, last year, for the first time in the country, we developed a South African curriculum on sign language because we did not have a standardised curriculum.
What we are currently doing is training teachers in full sign language communication so that it is not some teachers. We have a programme where we are training them. It is a huge programme because we did find out when we declared last year, a year of school with special needs, that there are teachers who could not use sign language but were teaching kids with hearing difficulties. They relied on interpreters in classrooms which created a double-dipping problem in terms of their instruction.
We are training those teachers whilst we still use facilitators. Currently, we are using a facilitator who is a bridge between the teacher and the learners and we just find it unworkable and also not suitable. So, we are training all teachers who are teaching kids with hearing difficulties or deaf learners, sign language. We are also training lots of teachers to read and write in Braille for those teachers working with children who are visually impaired or blind. So, we have a full programme to do. Thank you, hon Chair.
QUESTION 4
QUESTION 108
Question[nm179] 4:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I am advised that, at the request of hon Mpambo, Question 4 which was originally meant for a written reply was converted into a Question for oral reply.
The[nm180] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I have signed off this question. I am not sure why there was a communication breakdown with my office. I remember signing off this question. It had a lot of figures that I don’t know by heart. So, I really want to apologise if there was a communication breakdown because, indeed, we gave a written reply that involves lots of figures which I really don’t know by heart.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is the hon Minister able to table the response?
The[nm181] MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, we can send it tomorrow because it is ready. We can send it tomorrow. I can even let my office email it because I signed it off sometimes back. I will definitely send it to your office tomorrow. I undertake to send it to your office by tomorrow.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, let us then say that, because of its statistical nature, the question was originally meant for a written reply. Usually when a question is for oral reply but too statistical, it is converted into a question for written reply. Can we agree that, because even the written response is not in the House, we defer this Question 4 to stand over to the next question time? It seems to me that ...
Setswana:
... e saletse kwa morago go le gonnye.
Ms[nm182] E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, but the Minister has just said that she will make the reply to this question available tomorrow. That’s acceptable to us if she wants to make it available tomorrow. If we make it stand over to the next question time, it’s going to take another term before it is replied and it will be a little bit unfair.
THE[nm183] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I come from a culture where questions for written responses are tabled in the Council. So, if it’s a tradition that responses to questions that need written responses can be tabled anytime and anyhow, I am not aware – and I am here to be advised. Can I be advised by the Table. [Interjections.]
We agree to take the middle road that the Minister will send the written response but that response must still be tabled in the Council. It’s only better if responses come and be formally tabled in the Council rather than remaining out there and not as formalised as is it supposed to be. So, we thank you Ma’m for that.
QUESTION 11
QUESTION 4
Question[nm184] 11:
The[nm185] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s Question 11, hon Minister. It is also for written response which means it will be dealt with in the same way as Question 4; however, we would like to see it formally tabled in the Council.
Mr[nm186] W F FABER: Hon Chair, I would have actually liked an oral reply as I would have wanted to ask follow-up questions.
The[nm187] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber, the question as it appears on the Question Paper, is for a written response. When a question appears in this manner, the response is written. It is usually tabled in the Councile and there are no follow-up questions. When a written response is required, it gives Ministers enough time to elaborate when responding. The response can be voluminous and it has to be in detail. So, hon members, we will pass Question 11 and move on to the next question.
QUESTION 37
QUESTION 11
Question[nm188] 37:
The[nm189] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, may I ask a question of procedure before answering? In front of me, here, I have the NCOP Rules, section 246 subsection 4 which provides: “No more than six questions for oral reply may be put to a Minister in respect of anyone government department on any particular day.” As I was listening to the Minister of Basic Education, I realised that she had already answered six questions. Are you going to apply that to me because I am ready for six questions only? I just want that clarity because, in terms of this rule, I have prepared myself for six.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister of Health, I am advised that indeed you are right; the questions for oral response should be six. They get increased if questions which, were for written response were converted into; alternatively, if a question which was meant for written response was not responded to and the time lapses; Such question then gets converted into oral. So, that is why you will see that the last two questions which were suppose to have been written, I do not understand how but, the hon members, especially the hon Mpambo, had already been assured that it would be converted. That is why we allowed the question to come in.
I note that the Minister of Health has already counted the six questions and there are more than more than six questions to the Minister of Health. Hon members we will indicate if any other question should have been responded to and was not responded to. So, hon Minister please proceed with your first one; that is Question 37.
The[nm190] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, the question is from a member of the DA from the Free State province, hon Michalakis which says: How many students had to be transferred to other universities in order to complete their studies as a result of the recent closure of the cardiology department of the Universitas Academic Hospital; and the plans of reopening it. The cardiology department at Universitas Hospital was never closed. No students were sent away to other universities. So your next two questions are not applicable. Thank you.
Mr[nm191] G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, the hon Minister should perhaps know that indeed, as it was, the cardiology faculty has closed, however, there were private practising specialists who assisted in trying to keep the cardiology department open. It is for that one reason that it has continued to be functional to some extend. My follow up question will then be: When can these private practising specialists who assisted in trying to keep the cardiology department open, on the request of the department expect payment for their agreed services which has become due and payable as far back as May this year? Thank you.
THE[nm192] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, it is a departure from the original question but if the Minister is prepared to answer it, he can proceed.
The[nm193] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, indeed, it is definitely a new question about when will they be paid. Since they are being paid by the Free State Department of Health, I would not have the figures here; otherwise, I will be able to answer your question. The main question was that the unit was closed. It was never closed and that was my answer. Thank you.
IsiZulu[nm194] :
Nkk[nm195] L L ZWANE: Sihlalo, ngifisa ukuzwa kuNgqongqoshe – hhayi uNgcongcoshe – ukuthi ingabe mhlawumbe inani odokotela abafundela ukwelapha isifo senhliziyo liyakhula yini? Lokhu ngikubuziswa ukuthi sibona inani labantu abakhathazwa isifo senhliziyo liya ngokukhula emphakathini. Sisebancane besingekho kangako lesi sifo - kodwa-ke mhlawumbe ngenxa yokudla osekudliwa inani labantu abaphathwa yisifo senhliziyo liyakhula. Ngiyafisa-ke ukwazi ukuthi mhlawumbe ingabe inani lodokotela abafundela ukwelapha isifo senhliziyo liyakhula yini inani labo? Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Minister is still listening to interpretation. Please put your mic off, my hon member.
The[nm196] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, indeed it is true that the instance of heart diseases is increasing in the country. That is a fact, it is not only heart diseases, it is all the four noncommunicable diseases; the first one being high blood pressure and chronic heart diseases, diabetes mellitus, cancer and chronic lung diseases. They are on the increase. The solution is not going to be increasing the number of doctors; of course, we do need doctors and cardiologists are few in the country. That is a fact. The hon member there thought because one head of cardiology has left the Universitas Hospital, it will be closed.
You can go to the University of Pretoria or Steve Biko Academic Hospital and you will find the same situation; you will find that there is only one professor of cardiology. So, there is a shortage. The solution to this is to look at what we call the risk factors to the chronic heart diseases. If you look at the National Development Plan, it actually said we must reduce the burden of diseases; not to try to produce more doctors to treat them; reduce them. How do you reduce them? One of the main strategies is to reduce salt consumption. When you talk about these things, I know that members get very angry. They say that we are a nanny state, we are actually controlling them. The reason why high blood pressure is increasing and causes a lot of kidney damage, is because people are consuming more salt than they are suppose to. So we did not ban salt, we said you must reduce it. For that reason we called industries and agreed that salt must be reduced in six foodstuffs in the country; that is bread, brine in chicken, cereals, spices, soups and snacks.
We have issued a Government[rm197] Gazette - what I am talking about is gazetted - stating that the first target of salt reduction by industries must be reached by 2016 and the second one by 2019. In that way, the incidents of high blood pressure and these chronic heart diseases will sort of reduce. That is one of the strategies that we are following. Thank you.
Mr[nm198] G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, if I am allowed I would like to ask another follow up question.
THE[nm199] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You can proceed.
Mr[nm200] G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister, you have just admitted that there is some reduced staff capacity at this cardiology department, if I understood you correctly. Are you then aware that critically ill cardiology patients are being referred by Universitas Hospital to a private hospital? These are state patients. Who is responsible for paying this bill of the private hospital? Has any payment been made, if the Minister could answer that? By when could such payment be expected? Does the Minister agree that this is not assisting the R700 million deficit of the provincial department by referring state patients to private hospitals with private hospitals’ bills? This is due to your department, or the provincial medical department or health department’s failure to get this department of cardiology running properly. Thank you.
The[nm201] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, I am sure the member has tried his best to force me to mention what actually has happened there. I don’t know why he did not say it straight. It is true, the unit is not closed, but it is true that it has got reduced capacity because the head of that department insulted security personnel by calling them the “k” word. I know that the security personnel are ordinary people. The second thing is that he was insisting on smoking in the cardiology lab. So, when he was called for disciplinary hearing, he refused to come; he wrote a letter and preferred to resign rather than be taken for disciplinary hearing.
Two of his colleagues, who are lecturers, then wrote e-mails to the chief executive officer complaining that because this person is highly skilled with very rare breed of skills he can’t be charged. Yes. They said he can’t be charged because the charges are not very important; maybe because he insulted security officers, and they threatened that if he gets charged, they will also leave and go to the private sector. It is not for the first time that academics with rare skills blackmail us and tell us not to do certain things within the law because they will go. It is not for the first time.
In Steve Biko Academic Hospital, in the anaesthetic department, where they serve all the other departments, you can’t operate anybody whether is neo surgery or you do a caesarean section or you operate on the bone, you can’t operate without the anaesthetic department because they put people to sleep. They are in full-time employment but decided not to work on Fridays because they were going to work in the private sector while the state is paying them full salaries. They said they would not come to work on Fridays. When the chief executive officer complained, they said that they will go to the private sector. Other professors complained, and eventually, six of them left. So these things happen. In other words they are saying, “we have got skills, let me do what I want and if you touch me I am going to leave you alone.”
This is what happened here. It is true that when they left, they got a retired professor to come and run that department on a part-time basis, and they also got private practitioners to try and run it. This is not a secret, if you thought it was a secret. The question is: If the highly trained people do wrong things in this country, should they be left alone because of their status? That is exactly the question that we need to be answering.
Coming to your question about when payment will be made and if we not wasting money; this question is both ways. Private hospitals also do give us work and because it doesn’t appear in the papers – this one was in the papers – you believe it’s the only thing that is happening. We also do. A month ago, I was at Steve Biko Hospital where a patient had a pacesetter with a fibrillator was inserted in his body for R300 000 because he had a medical aid. When they had to change the battery his medical aid was depleted and they dumped him on us. Yes, we had to take over. There are many of such examples where a person whose money has been depleted and taken over by us, and not even been followed up. We have just rescued a lady who needed a life saving operation and they wanted R250000. We took over and performed the operation.
These things are not mentioned, so I want you to balance when you point fingers at us; you must also point fingers to the other direction because it is not necessarily clean there. That is why the Competition Commission has put up a public market enquiry which is going to be chaired by former Chief Justice Ngcobo to investigate these things. Members of the public are going to be called or even subpoenaed to give evidence in front of that commission about these types of practices that are happening. [Time expired.]
QUESTION 30
QUESTION 37
Question[nm202] 38:
The[nm203] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, the question is about institutions or bodies that conduct oversight in each province and the amounts allocated to them. We do have quite a number of institutions in the health sector, like the Health Professions Council of SA, HPCSA, the nursing council, the pharmacy council, the Elite Healthcare Professionals, all of them are entities and bodies that do oversight. The type of oversight they do is primarily for professional ethics and quality of care. None of them specifically conduct oversight in provinces. The people who must conduct oversight in provinces are mostly in this Council and the other House, that is, the National Assembly. Those are Members of Parliament who mostly do oversight through the select committees, portfolio committees and part appropriation committee.
As you know, it is only now that Parliament has past the law on the Office of Health Standards Compliance which will provide for inspectors that will go and inspect health facilities. That office has been set up in January and its capacity is being established. It has just appointed an interim chief executive officer. We have already sent 25 people to be trained in England as inspectors and they are there. These are not health inspectors, and I do not want members to confuse them. Health inspectors are people who are now called environmental care inspectors. They have always been there. These ones are people who go to hospitals to inspect cleanliness, waiting times, attitude of staff towards patience, infection control, safety and security of staff, financial management, maintenance of buildings, and so forth. It is a new phenomena altogether and that office has been set up.
The bodies that exist are there for the purpose of reporting someone for professional ethics or receiving poor care quality, and they will then determine whether it is the Nursing council or the Health Professions Council SA or the Elite Healthcare Professionals or the Pharmacy Council that will go and investigate. Unfortunately, I did not bring their budgets here, but I could be able to provide them. Thank you.
Ms[nm204] C LABUSCHAGNE: I would like to thank the hon Minister for the answers and suggestions, and I would like you to also send us the budgets. In the absence or in the mean time while we are awaiting the inspectorate to be established, as the Minister, how do you plan to address the health care areas where a breakdown of oversight results in poor management of health services, for instance, with regard to the accounts which have not being paid in Gauteng and the lack of equipment in certain health care institution, as well as the situation in the Free State provincial department, as you have described in the previous question, where Dr Wilmot James, from the DA, wrote a letter to you and requeste intervention in terms of section 100?
The[nm205] MINISTER OF HEALTH: I am not very sure whether I have clearly understood the member. However, as I was listening carefully, the member is talking about where something wrong has taken place and how we correct it. There are many ways of correcting that. As you know in Limpopo, the Department of Health was one of the departments that were put under administration to try and correct the wrongs. An administrator was sent there and we have a list of all the wrongs that were corrected and were presented here to the NCOP.
In the Free State as you are mentioning, I did write the letter to the MEC and showed the department as to where they went wrong in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, and demanded that corrections be made and they are being made. However, the province itself put that department under administration of the Treasury and indicated all the things that needed to be corrected. So, those corrections are being made. Thank you.
QUESTION 42
QUESTION 38
Question[nm206] 42:
The[nm207] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, the question is about measures that are being taken to reverse the skills flight from the public health sector to the private sector, and also to attract health professionals to the public health sector and to retain them. This question has two parts.
Firstly, there are many reasons why people are moving from the public sector to the private sector, and I have just given you one of the reasons. The private sector remunerates much more than the public sector; and I am sure the whole world knows that. It is a fact which is very difficult to change and that is why people keep on threatening us and demanding certain things. However, when the government implemented Occupational Specific Dispensation, OSD, it closed that gap quite tremendously. The OSD people turned to undermine it and they said people were still underpaid, for instance, a medicine professor who is a head of department is earning the same salary as the director-general of the department and this is never emphasised in the newspapers; and yes it is a fact. The starting salary of a professor and the head of the department in medicine is at the same level with that of a director-general. However, you do read in the newspapers where director-generals are called fat cats and that professors are underpaid and are said to be poor; which is not true. After the OSD, it cannot be truth.
In fact, one of the reasons why we are struggling to find good managers in hospitals in terms of the chief executive officers of hospitals is exactly because of that. Many doctors who are experienced and highly qualified would not like to be a chief executive officer of a hospital because if you are a chief executive officer, you are a manager at a particular level such as director, chief director or deputy director-general. However, if you come in as a professional and earn in terms of the OSD, your salary becomes much higher. So, it becomes difficult for people to take up management positions when they know that being a professional pays much higher.
That is one of the things we were trying to attend to. It never stopped people from going to the private sector because it does not mean that they will be at the same level as the private sector, but it did help.
The response to the second part of this question is that people are not only moving to the private sector but they move to greener pastures. It is a world phenomena that we are losing doctors to Europe and to Canada, but if you go to Canada you will find that they are also losing doctors to the United States, because it is richer than them. So, this phenomena is always debated at the World Health Assembly where Ministers of Health meet every year under the World Health Organisation. The debate would be about how to keep doctors in areas where there is not a lot of money.
There are resolutions that have been passed. One of the resolutions is to discourage countries to recruit doctors from a developing country. The only thing about that resolution is that it is not 100% binding. When some Ministers were approached on the issue, they would just say that they did not recruit them; the doctors just came, like it is happening to us in South Africa.
There is the Southern African Development Communities, Sadc, resolution that South Africa must never recruit doctors from the rest of Sadc because it pays better and doctors will come in large numbers. So, we are not recruiting them but they do come and cannot be send away. It is a very difficult situation. Some of them are highly qualified and you will find them selling oranges in the streets when there are patients that need them in the wards. Now, when you try and respond to the Sadc’s resolution, then you find a doctor who cannot be employed in South Africa because he comes from within the Sadc region, but we end up employing them. These are very difficult situations but we are trying our best in dealing with them.
The[nm208] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that subsection (c) about the retention, hon Minister? I suppose you covered it.
The[nm209] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, it is covered.
T[nm210] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Masango or is it the hon Van Lingen as changed.
Mrs[nm211] E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, we have submitted a letter to say that she is else where occupied and that we will handle her question.
Chairperson, may I address the hon Minister. The Western Cape has a turnaround strategy in place in order to retain the health professionals in the public sector and I am not satisfied with the Minister’s reply with the turnaround plan that he has in place to retain people and the health professionals in the department. He said we are not supposed to recruit from Sadc countries and there is an international agreement. What are we doing to retain health professionals?
The[nm212] MINISTER OF HEALTH: I may have probably mentioned only one area; the OSD issue. As I have said, there are recommendations not only from us, but from the World Health Organisation, for instance, such as giving other packs like good accommodation, better working conditions and encouraging people on scholarships. Like now, we do have scholarships where we are funding people to do PhDs and they are fully funded even part of their salaries are been paid. Those are the strategies that we are trying to make sure that we retain people within the public sector.
What I was trying to emphasise is that it is very difficult to compete with the private sector and it is not only a South African phenomena, it is a world phenomena. However, we are trying all these steps. These include issues of not recruiting within Sadc region so that we keep them within the Sadc countries, in the public sector and in their countries of birth, where they come from. So, it is not only helping our own country, it is also helping other countries and if we recruit them by force, patients will cross the borders and come to our public entities. We are trying to resolve these issues not only as one country but we resolve them regionally and even internally.
The[nm213] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, any other supplementaries from this question? Are you reluctant, hon member? I will break the rule as I did earlier on because you are the only one who wants to ask another follow up question. But before you, let me take the hon Suka.
Mr[nm214] L SUKA: Hon Chairperson, I have a very brief question. I just want to check wit the hon Minister whether we have some incentives for those doctors that are working in rural areas and also in small towns? We speak of revitalisation of the small towns, yet there is a big challenge of the absence of them and doctors do not stay in those areas. Are there any incentives to attract them, so that they remain where they are needed most? Thank you.
The[nm215] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, within the OSD there is what we call rural allowance whereby a doctor who works in a rural hospital earns more money than a doctor at the same level of qualifications and experience but who is working in the city, to try and make sure that we encourage doctors to go and work there.
Another method is to try and give them equipment because some of them will come and say that they would want to study further, but in these rural hospitals they do not have world class equipment; so, they are going to lose. Sometimes they even to go to a private hospital and use the same reason that they want equipment. And one of the things we are doing ... as you have already seen the President opening Harry Surtie Hospital in Upington. It is a very far rural town and that hospital has got state of the art equipment which is not found any where. That is why during the opening, one eNCA commentator remarked and said the hospital can put any private hospital to shame, because it has world class equipment. Why are we doing that is because it will then attract professors and people who want to study further, to go to that area which under normal conditions they would not have gone to. So, that is one of the strategies. There will be many more hospitals of that nature that are going to be opened in far rural areas where professionals do not necessarily want to go. Thank you.
Mrs[nm216] E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I am covered; the hon member stole my question. [Laughter.]
An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Because you are both from the East.
QUESTION 44
QUESTION 42
Question[nm217] 44:
The[nm218] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, this question is about tuberculosis, TB, the increasing prevalence, the plans and programmes at primary health care level and how much the budget is over two financial years.
First of all, yes, it is indeed true that TB is a very big problem in this country. In fact, there are 22 countries in the world that carry 80% of the world’s TB occurrence. Unfortunately, five of them fall within the SADC region, and South Africa is one of them.
Secondly, when it comes to multidrug-resistant, MDR, TB, 60% of MDR-TB in the world is found in five countries. These are the five Brics countries, and unfortunately, you know that South Africa is a member of Brics.
Lastly, 80% of the people who die because of HIV disease are actually killed by TB. So, it is an increasing problem.
Fortunately, we have started to deal with the problem. The World Health Organisation recommends that the cure rate for TB in countries should be 85%. Five years ago, South Africa was at 63%. We are now at around 78%. Some provinces have already ... I think I recall that Gauteng has already reached 80%. So we are moving there. There are quite a number of changes.
Yes, we do have plans at primary health care level. The first is that patient and community education regarding TB is being done. We are also promoting health-seeking behaviour. There is also intensified case-finding. In fact, in 2011, on World TB Day, the then Deputy President, Kgalema Motlanthe, unveiled three strategies to fight TB in the country.
The first one was to put up teams for intensive case-finding, to visit relatives of people who have got TB. We know, because we have a database – there are 405 000 people with TB in the country. So, they are visiting their families to screen them. At the last count, they had already visited 105 000 families and unveiled 3 000 previously unknown cases of TB in those families.
The second strategy was to open an MDR-TB hospital in each and every province; and the third one was the day the GeneXpert was unveiled.
GeneXpert is a new form of technology to diagnose TB, the first new technology for 50 years. This means that for the past 50 years, science has been using one form of technology to diagnose TB. GeneXpert has now revolutionised diagnosis because, before GeneXpert, it used to take us five days to diagnose TB. It now takes us two hours. Before GeneXpert, it used to take us three months to diagnose MDR-TB. It now takes two hours instead of two months. [Applause.]
In addition, I want to announce in this House that we are the number one country in covering our health facilities and laboratories with GeneXpert. There is no country higher than us. [Applause.] Last year, about 4 million tests were done worldwide on GeneXpert, and more than half of them were done in one country. That country is South Africa. So, we are doing something about it.
Lastly, we identified who in the country is the most vulnerable to TB. We found three clearly vulnerable groups. The most vulnerable group, firstly, are the people in correctional services facilities. There are 150 000 of them, and we are going to have to screen them and their relatives. The second group are mineworkers, especially those who work in the gold mines. They are very vulnerable and there are half a million of them. The last group is what the World Health Organisation calls the peri-mining communities – people whose houses or villages are situated around the mines. We have identified six districts where such people are, in areas of intense mining activity, and we have identified 600 000 people.
We are going to screen these groups and their families. We are putting up plans now. We have applied to the Global Fund for money for theat. They have given us R0,5 billion to do that job of screening mineworkers, people in correctional facilities and people staying around the mines.
We want to extend that to schoolchildren, such that children should also be screened at schools, especially at the schools in communities around the mining areas. We think all the schoolchildren there will have to be screened. We are busy with that process and will be launching it very soon. Thank you.
T[nm219] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, there is still (c) regarding how much is allocated in 2014-15.
The[nm220] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Oh yes. Yes. Chairperson, at the moment, for the screening in the three areas, it is R0,5 billion. For the other areas, it is very difficult to say. One would have to sit and work it out because the money is distributed across the whole spectrum, for human resources, diagnosis, drug supply and transport. Our rough estimate is R2 million. It is very difficult to pinpoint, because a nurse who goes to screen a person for TB, for instance, and visits a village, doesn’t only do one thing. They do quite a number of things, so it is difficult to say they spend a certain amount on TB.
We encourage people when they are screened for TB to be screened for HIV and Aids, as well. They must be screened for noncommunicable diseases, which I have mentioned – high blood pressure and diabetes, etc and where possible, even cholesterol. So, calculating what the amount is for TB is difficult, but at the moment, we can estimate it at R2 billion. However, we know that screening of the vulnerable groups is definitely going to be R0,5 billion. Thank you.
Ms[nm221] C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, Minister, thank you for the very valuable information you gave. We are glad that the Department of Health is administering TB as you described it. I would like to know: As you described the vulnerable groups as migrant workers and mining communities, does the department have a specialised programme for the children living in these conditions or in the homes of these people, and also in the homes of TB patients in the informal settlements, to test, treat and feed these children and give them additional nutrition, especially the very young?
The[nm222] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, technically, I did not say migrant workers. I said people working in the mines. It so happens that many of them happen to be migrant workers. I am emphasising that it is not because they are migrant workers. People working in the mines have TB. It is because they are exposed to silica dust, especially those who work in the gold mines. Silica dust exposes them to TB.
We also think that it is because those in the platinum mines are less exposed. Apart from silica dust, which is very high in gold, we also believe it is because gold mines were built during the era of apartheid when there were a lot of hostels. Platinum mines are relatively new and the situation there is not the same. So, it is not about migrancy; it is about the type of work they are doing within the mines.
One of the things we are doing is to insist that the Department of Mineral Resources puts more stringent rules in place in terms of protecting people from the dust. In mobilising for this, I visited Canada. I told the investors there that in their own countries they have more stringent rules than when they come in Africa. We are fighting that battle. I also happen to be the Chairperson of the Stop TB Partnership, a special unit that was put together by the World Health Organisation in about 2005. I was elected last year in Canada, and I am chairing it at the moment, so I happen to know most of these facts, and we are busy dealing with them.
At the moment, we are still using primary health care units for the children in informal settlements to try and trace them. As I said, however, the 405 000 people in the country we have on the database are the ones who have TB and who are being treated in our hospitals and clinics. We take that database and send nurses and health workers to visit each family and screen the rest of the members of the family. Using that method, we have already completed 105 000 families and unveiled 3 000 cases of TB there, as I said. It means that, had we not done the screening, we would not have known that those people have got TB.
Something I forgot to mention is that people who are HIV-positive are five times more likely to get TB than those who are not. For that reason, we have put 1 million of them on what is called isoniazid prevention therapy, IPT. They are on a drug called Isoniazid, which prevents them from getting TB, as they are very vulnerable.
Something else which I forgot is this. People who are diabetic also stand five times more of a chance to get TB than those who are not. They are very closely related, so that is why one also has to screen for noncommunicable diseases. Thank you.
Ms[nm223] T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chair, Mininster Dr Motsoaledi, it is experienced on the ground that there are those who are suffering from TB and who absolutely refuse to go to hospital. I want to know from you what you are doing for them, other than the visits, because you can’t force them to go to hospital if they refuse to do so. That poses so much of a danger. What are you doing to make sure that their family members and siblings at work are being protected?
The[nm224] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, indeed, these are very difficult issues. You are aware, in terms of South African law you can’t force anybody to go for treatment. However, I don’t want people to think that everybody who has TB belongs in hospital. That is not necessarily the case. In fact, if we have treated you and you can no longer transmit the bacteria, it is better to be in the community rather than in hospital. So, we are trying to cut the number of weeks that you have got to spend there.
There are nine MDR TB hospitals, which I said the hon Kgalema Motlanthe opened officially. If you have MDR-TB, you stay there for 18 months. It is extremely expensive, because you each have to stay in your own room with your own toilet facilities, like you do in a five-star hotel, to try to avoid spreading it all over and especially to the health care workers.
So, it is not in our interest to isolate people in MDR-TB hospitals. It is very difficult. We have to get teachers for the children staying there to teach them so that they do not lose school time. So, the best thing is to make sure that people are treated in their communities. In fact, that is another programme we have – to make sure that even MDR-TB is treated at home, as long as you can no longer transmit the bacteria.
Mr[nm225] V E MTILENI: Chair, the Minister understands what he is doing. I wish South Africa could have five Ministers who know what he does. [Interjections.] Yes, I think you should appreciate what I’m saying. If we had five Ministers like the hon Dr Motsoaledi, South Africa would have a very good story to tell. [Interjections.] Unfortunately, we don’t ... [Laughter.] ... and we single-handedly applaud the Minister, Dr Motsoaledi.
I have only a small concern and, as he continues to explain, I have a question I am tempted to pose to him – although I was going to reserve it and ask it another time. He seems to be full of ... he knows every little thing about his job. [Laughter.]
T[nm226] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the question, hon member? [Laughter.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Don’t hurry up. [Interjections.] The question is: Mr Minister, we see these people who are going around in villages, particularly seeing or bathing those people suffering from HIV and TB. These people seem to be doing a lot, but they are not remunerated. So, I want to find out from you if you have any plan for these people. Thank you. [Interjections.] It’s a new one, but I realise he is a think-tank in his own department. [Interjections.] He can answer this one. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, the hon member admits that it is a new question, but if you want to respond, please do so.
The[nm227] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, if the House is prepared to tolerate it, it is a very lengthy answer. However, I will try to cut it.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please cut it, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, Chairperson. We are trying to re-engineer primary health care. There is something called the re-engineering of primary health care. We say that we must have a certain number of trained primary health care workers in every municipal ward. They are the ones who will do this type of work.
The hon member is quoting a problem for the country because it happened 10 years, a decade and a half ago, when HIV/Aids started to bite. We caused ourselves problems. Every time HIV/Aids bit because people were not on treatment, we appointed home-based care workers. Every time TB got worse, we appointed directly observed treatment, short course, DOTS, supporters. Every time we wanted child support grants, we appointed community liaison officers. So, we kept on appointing.
We have just done an audit. There are 72 000 people who fall within that capacity. Yet, in our plans, when we appoint 10 primary health care workers per ward, we will only need 42 000 people. That is the problem we are trying to resolve. Most of those people you are mentioning are called volunteers. Volunteering means I just give my services. However, when you visit them and they say, “Minister, I’ll be volunteering. When are you going to pay me?” then you get confused. That is why they said we are rude when we say they can no longer go to the health system and say they are volunteering. People must be hired fulltime.
The only province that has got the best model now is KwaZulu-Natal, and it is doing very well. They have put all those people together under the Premier’s Office and they work together. That is why KwaZulu-Natal is the province that reduced mother-to-child transmission more than the others. We have just taken the decision that all provinces must try and follow that model, as that model is much better for the country.
Ms[nm228] E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I am still very concerned about MDR- and extensively drug-resistant, XDR-TB at primary health care level. The Minister has just said that you cannot force anybody in South Africa to take treatment. However, in the case of children, can Social Development or the Department of Health actually take children from a home and then place them in hospital for a specific period, and is a court order required for it, and ... do you understand what I am asking?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think he does.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: He’s just told me to repeat the question, hon Chairperson! Can XDR- and MDR-TB patients, when they are children and when they are living in an informal settlement, be forcibly removed from their families to take treatment at an MDR- or XDR-TB hospital, by or without a court order?
The[nm229] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, we have not yet really come across such an incident. We must also not exaggerate the fact that people cannot be forced into treatment. If you sit with people and explain it very thoroughly, most of the time, they understand. The problem occurs if they don’t have any community health workers to help them understand. I have never come across a situation where we had to go to court, unfortunately, but I will go and check if we have had to.
What I know, for instance, is, taking an example like immunisation, sometimes parents refuse to have their children immunised. In terms of the law, I can over-ride such a parent, have them arrested and immunise the child. In terms of MDR- and XDR-TB, I am afraid I would be giving you the incorrect information. I haven’t checked. I will go and check whether any child can actually be removed from their parents and taken to hospital.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. Hon Mtileni?
Mr[nm230] V E MTILENI: Just a last, small one, Madam Chair ...
T[nm231] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No! [Laughter.] This was the fourth supplementary question, hon member. [Interjections.]
Mr[nm232] V E MTILENI: It is just a follow-up.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No!
Mr V E MTILENI: It’s a small one ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No!
Mr V E MTILENI: ... and very interesting!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s very interesting, but the four supplementaries have been done. We proceed to the next question.
QUESTION 76
QUESTION 44
Question[nm233] 76:
The[nm234] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, this is a very topical question and, as you know, it has scared the world. I have just got information – because I will be accompanying the President to the United Nations General Assembly session, Ungas – that the United Nations Security Council is going to sit in New York on Thursday to look into this issue of Ebola because it is becoming a world threat.
Having said so, I want to assure you that we have taken measures ... but perhaps I should first say that there is an incorrect perception. Last week, I was in China and Hong Kong. I was invited by Tourism South Africa and Brand South Africa, because people there are cancelling their visits to this country. They believe we have got Ebola. When you speak to them and even to people here at home, people believe that if we sit in this House and somebody enters here with the Ebola virus, we are all gone! That is what I found there, even in China. [Laughter.] Yes, they believe we are all gone, and it is so scary and disturbing.
On another occasion, I was addressing the ambassadors from all over the world who came for a workshop at the Department of International Relations and Co-operation. The Ambassador of South Africa to Liberia was the first to ask a question. When he sat down, his fellow ambassadors started looking at him in a strange way. [Laughter.] You know, I don’t think we should do that. Perhaps I should start there.
Ebola is one of the viral, haemorrhagic fevers, but it doesn’t spread like the flu, or like H1N1. You have got to literally handle the body fluids of the person who is infected – body fluids, like blood, saliva, vomitus – because they do have diarrhoea and vomiting. If you have to touch them and those body fluids, after touching them, you perhaps do not wash your hands and you brush your mouth or your eyes, it doesn’t ... if you drop Ebola or the blood here on my head, I am not going to get it, because this is intact skin. I just wanted people to understand that. Why, then, is it spreading so fast in that part of the world?
Those conditions don’t exist here, but I am not saying that we can’t get Ebola. You are aware that there are two people from the United States who got Ebola. They went to the United States, got treated and never infected anybody. There is a Spanish priest who went back to Spain and passed on. He never infected anybody because they can contain it.
In South Africa, we got Ebola in 1996. [Interjections.] Yes, you don’t know about it because it ... [Interjections.]... Yes. We got it in 1996. It came with a doctor from the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, who was sick. He came here and never disclosed that he had Ebola. The nurse who treated him passed on, but he was the only one, as it was contained.
What are the different conditions in West Africa? Firstly, that part of the world is only just postconflict. Liberia has been in a civil war for a long time. So has Sierra Leone, etc. So, their health care facilities are found wanting because they are postconflict; they are postwar. That is the first thing.
Secondly, there are cultural differences. Every nation has got its own culture. It so happens that there is a culture they practise there which, unfortunately, is devastating. What is that cultural practice? The natural host of the Ebola virus is a fruit bat.
Sepedi:
Mankgaganyane ka Sepedi.
English[nm235] :
I don’t know what it is in other languages, but a bat. Unfortunately, there they eat it, for meals. From bats, it goes to chimpanzees – apes, you know – and, unfortunately, they also eat them. So, it is very easy for the virus to spread. [Interjections.] Yes.
Thirdly, the problem is the cultural practice of bidding farewell to people who have passed away by touching them, which I know doesn’t happen here. So, I want you to understand those conditions; they do not exist here.
Lastly, if the health care system is not ready, it means that people don’t have protective clothing.
Now, back here, at home, we do have protective clothing. As we speak, 11 hospitals have been given 600 sets of protective clothing. It was easy, because we were ready during the time of H1N1. We just had to send that protective clothing there. Now, in West Africa, they never had it.
Perhaps the fifth reason is that the first case of Ebola started in the DRC in 1976. A teacher there bought a monkey for food. He went to slaughter it and unfortunately, got Ebola from it. The reason they call it Ebola is that he infected people around the Ebola River in the DRC. That is how the name came about, because it is the villages around the Ebola River which were heavily affected.
The DRC can contain this disease, because they know it. It is the first time in history that West Africa has got Ebola and they are not ready for it because they have never seen it. If you go to countries like Uganda, the DRC, as I said, Congo and Gabon – even in Asia, once - they did know how to handle it because they had had Ebola before. However, in those parts, it was new and they were not ready. Here, I assure you, we are ready. I am not saying we can’t get Ebola. I am just saying our state of readiness is much better.
Lastly, it is also perhaps because we have the National Institute of Communicable Diseases, NICD. It has been declared as one of the centres of excellence on the whole continent, not only the sub-region. Within the NICD, there is what we call the biosafety level 4 laboratory. That laboratory – the only one on the whole continent of Africa – is here in South Africa at Sandringham and it is the one that can handle deadly organisms, like Ebola and smallpox, etc.
So, we are ready because we have got the infrastructure that can handle this problem, and they don’t. That is why the mobile laboratory that is used now in Sierra Leone for the whole of West Africa is from us, here. We sent that mobile laboratory with four experts, because they don’t have any other way of diagnosing it and we had to help them. That is exactly what makes our readiness better. [Applause.]
T[nm236] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, subquestion (2) was about whether or not we are screening at access points. Are we?
The[nm237] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, we are, in fact, screening. What we did, strategically, was to choose areas which we think are very vulnerable. We believe we are vulnerable at O R Tambo International Airport and Lanseria Airport, in Gauteng. Those are number one. Those are the main threats for the whole country. That is why we have chosen two hospitals in Gauteng. While the others have been given 50 sets of protective clothing, in Gauteng, each of the two hospitals were given 100 sets. This is because we expect that if Ebola is to enter the country, it will be through O R Tambo International Airport. The second airport that worries us is Cape Town International Airport, here. The third one is King Shaka International Airport.
Those are the ones we are looking at. We have put thermal scanners there to try and scan people. We have even put questionnaires there. We ask people who arrive from West Africa, whether they are South African or not, to fill in that questionnaire. If we suspect something, we try to follow you up for a period of 21 days. Even SADC has made a resolution: someone who comes in from that area needs to be followed up for a period of 21 days. If they leave your country within 21 days, you tell the next country they are going to. This is not because you are following them because you want to chase them, but just to make sure that they don’t develop symptoms, because it takes 12 days for us to see that you have got Ebola. So, we are blocking all those areas.
There are people who tell me about illegal immigrants around the borders who are coming in. It is very difficult for us to control those. However, it would be very difficult to be ill with the Ebola virus and to walk or take lifts as illegal immigrants from West Africa until you go through the border and arrive here. That is quite unlikely. So, we need to look at areas that are most practicable because to believe that you will seal your country and make it airtight so that nobody can enter ... I think we need to be realistic. It’s not going to be that easy, but so far, you must realise that the strategy is working, because for the past four months we have been ready and waiting. We have not had a single case yet.
Ms[nm238] L L ZWANE: Chairperson, I have no question to put to the Minister because I think he is wide awake and on his toes. He has made enough of an attempt and done so to the best of his ability to ensure that, as citizens of this country, we are safe. From the explanation he has given, he knows his story. He really does. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you don’t have any question, hon Zwane. Thank you.
Ms L L ZWANE: This time around, I agree with the hon Mtileni. He knows his story. We have all the confidence in him. We are in safe hands. Of course, part of what the hon Mtileni said which is not correct is that there are no other Ministers as capable. We have got a big group of capable Ministers ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Arrive at the question.
Ms L L ZWANE: ... of discharging their duties. [Interjections.] So ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is a point of order.
Mr[nm239] J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect, time is ticking. We still have a lot of questions to cover. We are only halfway. Can we please stick to questions? Thank you.
T[nm240] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, you are allocated two minutes to build up to whatever you want to ask. The Rule is that hon members will use their two minutes to motivate their question and then ask the question. The point you are making is that, yes, the hon Zwane has used ... in fact, she did not use the full two minutes, because 18 seconds of it is still ticking. However, at the end of all that, there must be a question.
Mr[nm241] C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I read an article just in the past two days on the Ebola virus. It indicated in there that, since the breakout in West Africa, it has had 300 genetic mutations. There is a possibility that it can become airborne, and the more it spreads, the more it changes its structure, so it becomes more and more viable to become airborne. Based on that, hon Minister, I want to know: If that should happen, is your department ready to handle that? Because we heard earlier that nobody can be forced to go for treatment, I also want to ask in the same breath that, if that should happen and a person with Ebola refuses to get treatment, what does the department do?
The[nm242] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, Chairperson, if I understand my microbiology well, mutation is a process. It doesn’t happen overnight. Well, I am praying that Ebola doesn’t become airborne because, yes, we will be in very serious trouble if it is. So far, however, we are dealing with the situation whereby it is only spread through body fluids. I do think it will take some time for that type of mutation to occur.
If it does, there are teams and specialists. I have just told you, in South Africa, we have got the National Institute of Communicable Diseases. It is a centre of excellence. We have got a multisectoral response team. They sit in that response team. It meets fortnightly to assess the situation. If there is any change, like the situations you are mentioning, then they would be able to advise.
So far, I have never met anybody who refused to go to hospital with Ebola. Part of the reason is that when people are sick, they bring themselves to hospital. You don’t have to tell them to go. They are feeling the pain. They are very sick. We discover when they are there, that they have got Ebola. Many of them don’t know before going in!
That patient who the media was chasing – they were saying there was somebody with Ebola here – went to his own private doctor. We have sent all the doctors in the country guidelines on what to do when they suspect something. That doctor was suspicious. They have got the toll-free number of the NICD. He phoned the NICD and they guided him on what to do with the patient. They asked that patient to come to the hospital and that is how he got tested.
So far, we can’t remember a situation where anybody refused to come for treatment. If that situation arises, we will have to put it to the multisectoral team, understand that type of phenomenon and see how to deal with it. So far, however, we haven’t ever experienced it.
Mr[nm243] M KHAWULA: Chairperson, thank you, hon Minister, firstly, for affirming that where you have elephants in abundance you don’t have big problems. [Interjections.] You have spoken about the measures that have been taken around Johannesburg’s O R Tambo International and Lanseria Airports, King Shaka and Cape Town International Airports, as entry points. The Minister has not said anything about the ports. We have four big ones in the country, in Richards Bay, Durban, Port Elizabeth and Cape Town. I would like to know if those are not perhaps a threat, and if they are some kind of a threat, what measures have been taken to ensure that there is safety around them?
The[nm244] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, we are also busy purchasing thermal scanners for them. However, we don’t regard them as being as much of a threat as the other ports you have mentioned, particularly because the ports you have mentioned are mostly for goods, not for human beings. The problem will come mostly with human beings, in the areas I have mentioned. Perhaps what I forgot to say is this. Don’t think people who are coming from those areas are running away. They are actually being screened.
In the villages around the borders between Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone, the President there declared a state of emergency. There are literally soldiers there who do not allow people in or out because they don’t want the virus to spread. The World Health Organisation has got health workers to screen those who go through the airport before they come here. When they arrive here, there is a second screening. So, people are not just moving in and out without our knowledge. That is why it is important for the whole world to send health workers there to work. We became aware recently that Cuba is now sending 150 health workers there because they do have them, and we really applaud that heartily. Thank you.
Ms[nm245] M C DIKGALE: Chairperson, I want to check with the Minister whether they do have programmes for educating the public about this Ebola, because if you don’t have the knowledge about the disease, you will be scared then you can make mistakes very easily. Thank you.
The[nm246] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, yes, we have tried. Firstly, in each and every hospital, we have got these documents, which, I have said, have been distributed for the health workers. We have held workshops. For members of the public, we have tried many times already, to educate them through the media.
The problem you are experiencing is that the media in South Africa is not interested in that. They are interested in the first case of Ebola. They even said I am accusing them when I asked them why they wanted Ebola. In two press conferences, where I announced the two patients we were following up were negative, you could see how disappointed they were! [Laughter.] They wanted me to say Yes, it’s positive! [Interjections.] Yes, unfortunately. I did ask them that question – why do you want Ebola? Shouldn’t you be happy that we are not getting it? So, they don’t.
It is only when SADC called a meeting when one journalist in Zimbabwe asked why SADC doesn’t call a workshop for all the journalists. I thought that was very constructive, but that was a Zimbabwean journalist. He said, Please workshop us, because we call, and as Ministers explain some of these things and say, Please go and inform the public, we do.
Prof Shabir Madhi is the head of the NICD. I was with him for 30 minutes on e.TV in the morning. He said that South Africans must worry more about TB than Ebola, and he mentioned it three times. He said the chances of getting TB, if you are in South Africa, is higher than the chances of ever getting Ebola, because, hon members, as ordinary citizens, when last did you ever touch the blood or saliva of somebody unrelated to you, a general member of the public? It is usually health workers who do that, not ordinary people. He was saying, as an ordinary citizen, worry more about TB than Ebola, but nobody was listening. So, we do give this information. Unfortunately, people are following something else.
We are prepared to go all over and teach people, like the lecture I gave at the University of Hong Kong for the Governor, academics and everybody there. They were very happy because they said they were being misled, which is why they were no longer going to South Africa. Now that it has been explained to them, they seem to understand.
So, please help us with your constituencies. Where you want us to call people and explain, we will come and do so.
T[nm247] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, I am sure the members of this House will therefore not hesitate to go to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, CPA, meeting in Cameroon. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes. No, they should.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: This concludes that question. We move on to Question 89, put by ...
Mr[nm248] G MICHALAKIS: My apologies, hon Chairperson. If I remember correctly, you also recognised me when you identified the possible questions. I am just making sure.
T[nm249] he CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Actually, I signalled to you that I had taken four already. I thought that ... I am not good at sign language. We had already taken ... Mr Dikgale was the fourth. Can we then proceed, hon members, to the question posed by the hon Motara? And to put you at ease, hon Minister, the two other questions are for a written response, so this is your last oral reply.
QUESTION 89
QUESTION 76
Question[nm250] 89:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just to put your mind at ease, hon Minister, the two remaining questions are for written response, so this is your last oral response.
The[nm251] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Viva, Chairperson! Viva! [Laughter.]
Chairperson, we are indeed planning to build many new hospitals. The election manifesto of the ruling party said that we would build 43 new hospitals, renovate 830 facilities that already exist, and build 216 new clinics. As I am speaking now, 11 hospitals are currently under construction. Many others are going to be replaced because of their age. So, we are on track.
Over the next five years, we are preparing to build those 43 new hospitals, we must have built 216 new clinics, and we must have renovated the 830 health facilities. Most of these buildings are in pilot districts for the National Health Insurance Scheme.
The next question indicated by the sub-bullet asks what the status of each province is thus far, and whether there are any relevant details. I have a whole list of the names and I don’t think it will be fair to this Council. It is in the form of statistics for anybody who wants it.
The[nm252] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please table it.
The[nm253] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Must I read it?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, it should be tabled. We can then circulate it to all the members.
The[nm254] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, I will do so. Thank you.
Ms[nm255] T MOTARA: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for the progress report. I think we will just wait for the detail. Other than that, I don’t have a follow-up question.
Mr[nm256] J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for the response, even if it was not my question - it is still very important.
I think it is one thing to plan and to promise, but it is another to deliver. Minister, in Gauteng alone, Jabulani Hospital and the other one in Natalspruit experienced a delay of over five years to complete. [Interjection.] Over five years is still eight, Minister.
Now, this delay actually doubled the costs. My question is, are we likely to see more delays when building these new hospitals and what measures, if any, do you have in place to avoid these delays, because we desperately need these hospitals?
The[nm257] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, hon member, you are right. You are talking about the past. I am talking about the future. That is the difference. It is true that Jabulani Hospital took eight years to build. Thereafter, last month, we opened the new Natalspruit Hospital in Vosloorus. I was there with the Premier of Gauteng. I personally committed myself publicly in the media and said that it would never happen again because we are committing ourselves that if we build a district hospital from the beginning to the end, it will take a maximum of 36 months to do so. We have developed norms and standards and we have put up teams. Let me tell you why mistakes happened in the past.
The Department of Health would just decide to build Jabulani Hospital, allocate money, and take it to the Public Works. The Department of Health had no engineers, no architects, there was no one. If you check all the provinces now, we have a structure - which has been costed - of the number of the many engineers, quantity surveyors, and those in the built environment within the Department of Health. I even know that it will cost us R29 million for each department to have this type of people, so that they could design and be able to follow up on the Public Works.
In the past, Public Works would just issue the tender, because they also did not necessarily have those people. Now they have those people in Health who will go there and monitor all the time and evaluate and follow them up. Because of that, we believe that what you said had happened will no longer happen. That is why we are able to commit ourselves publicly. [Interjection.]
Yes, they say you must try to be positive and think about the future.
Mr[nm258] G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, with all due respect, hon Minister, you might accuse my friend of being concerned with the past, and praise yourself with being concerned with the future. I, however, have to say that my concern lies in the present. It is a very big concern, and is about the Trompsburg Hospital.
Hon Minister, the Trompsburg Hospital in the Free State has already been built but, since its completion, it has not been carried over to the department by the contractor who had built it. Could you perhaps indicate why the hospital has not yet been carried over to the department, and when it will happen? Thank you.
The[nm259] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I did not accuse the hon member; I merely informed him that the situation he stated happened in the past and that we accept that. The plans we have for the future are such that it will not happen again. That was not an accusation. If I am not mistaken, is the hospital you are talking about the one in Gariep, in the Free State? [Interjections.] Yes, next to the N1. It is very beautiful there! Extremely so! You must add that! I don’t know why you forgot that. [Laughter.] It’s extremely beautiful!
We have sent engineers there and they are checking. So, when we open the hospital, there should be no deficiencies. It must open with equipment and staff. In the past, some of those things were not necessarily done. So, just be a little patient; it will be done. Thank you.
Ms[nm260] T WANA: Chairperson, my question is on the issue of Umtata. During the time I served on the Eastern Cape Health committee, there was a budget for Umtata Nurses Home. That budget was taken over to the national department.
Secondly, there is the issue of a mental hospital which was called Sir Henry Elliot. I just appeal to you, Minister, that those two...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Wana, we cannot hear you.
Ms[nm261] T WANA: Can’t you hear?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We can’t. Your voice is pitched too low.
Ms T WANA: What I am saying, hon Minister, is that during my time in the Eastern Cape there was a budget allocated specifically to build a nurses’ home at Umtata General. As you are aware, Umtata General has been revitalised, but that building is undermining the status of this new hospital and the two hospitals; the Nelson Mandela Academy because that portion was set to be built and the budget was done and sent to the Eastern Cape. During that process, it was taken back to the national department.
Umtata is getting bigger and the project of the President is to revitalise Umtata, but those two buildings are just making the status of these new buildings in a very... situation. I’m just appealing to you ... I wish those two departments could also be included in your list. Those two buildings ... Thank you.
The[nm262] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, it’s not only those two. Fortunately, OR Tambo district in the Eastern Cape is an NHI pilot project site. We have agreed that all the NHI pilot projects will be taken over by us at a national level. Remember, there are 11 pilot projects. We have already sent engineers there. They have visited each and every hospital and – literally – each and every clinic. If you come to the department I will show you the documents. They have actually checked their statuses from the roof to the walls, the ceiling, the floor, and water and electricity supply.
They have even colour-coded them. Where you need a total replacement, it’s red; where you need major maintenance, it’s amber; where you just need minor repairs, it’s green. I can show you the graph for OR Tambo – it is very red. I accept that. This means that most of the things there need to be replaced.
Because of that, we know that three hospitals need total replacement. We can’t even repair them. They are going to be built from the ground up.
Eight clinics need total replacement. A number of nurses’ homes are on the programme.
So the build framework and plan for that OR Tambo Hospital is quite extensive. It doesn’t only involve the Nelson Mandela Academic Hospital. It involves that...
We also know that 40 clinics need extra space and we are busy creating them.
So we have quite an extensive programme which has been costed and we are busy implementing it. That is why we are putting up these structures for that implementation.
You can relax, hon member. It is going to happen.
QUESTION 3
QUESTION 89
Question 3:
The[nm263] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On Question 3, hon member Mtileni: With written responses, the person who penned the question gets the first bite and then the three supplementary questions are spread across any other member. We have done the four questions. Hon Minister, we now move on to the written responses. Do you have responses or are they going to be circulated?
The[nm264] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I do have them.
The[nm265] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you please just table them. You do not have to ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I may circulate them. Do I really have to go through them?
The[nm266] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no! Tabling simply means saying that you have the response and then the copies are circulated to all the members.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, here are the responses. [Laughter.] [Applause.] I am tabling them. [Interjections.]
The[nm267] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That would be Question 3 on our Order Paper as posed by the hon Van Lingen to the Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, Chairperson. Even if the Rules allowed me to respond to them orally, that would not have been possible, because these are figures for every municipality, odometer readings for every ambulance, what the costs were, and so forth. The question is asking: What is the reading for every ambulance? How many kilometres has it done and all that? So, all the answers are here. I cannot read them here; I can only table them.
The[nm268] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, if it is a written response, you simply table the response that is written. Can the hon Minister then table all of them, please?
QUESTION 8
QUESTION 3
Question 8:
The[nm269] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The other question is Question 8, also from the hon Van Lingen. She asked: Whether the Minister has conducted any surprise inspections at hospitals? If you have a response, Minister, please table it.
The[nm270] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, I have the response, Chairperson. Here it is, I am tabling it. [Applause.]
QUESTION 9
QUESTION 8
Question 9:
The[nm271] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Question 9 is also from the hon Van Lingen: Whether the Minister will provide information on the hygiene conditions at Livingstone Hospital?
The[nm272] MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, I am also tabling it, hon Chairperson. [Applause.]
The[nm273] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think that was the last question for written response. We thank you very much, hon Minister of Health. Is there a point of order?
Mr[nm274] C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: I saw that the Chief Whip of the NCOP was shocked about the fact that Question 3 was asked. As a point of clarity also: This was actually a written question that was not answered and it lapsed. So, maybe the Chief Whip did not understand that it was not an oral question, but a written question. [Interjections.]
The[nm275] CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit, thank you for giving us a light moment. I think the Chief Whip has heard you. Hon Minister of Health, thank you very much.
QUESTION 46
QUESTION 3
Question[nm276] 46:
The[nm277] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chair, the response to Question 46 as asked by hon Labuschagne is as follows. The post-school education and training system, as described in the 2013 White Paper for Post-School Education and Training, consist of the following institutions and institutional types.
Twenty-six public universities, including the three recently established universities; 50 public technical, industrial, vocational and entrepreneurship training, Tivet, colleges, previously referred to as FET colleges; public adult learning centres, soon to be absorbed into community colleges which are to be established; private post-school institutions; 21 sector education and training authorities, Setas; the National Skills Fund; regulatory bodies responsible for qualifications and quality assurance in the post-school system, that is SAQA, quality councils and the National Artisan Moderating Body; the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS; and the National Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences.
The system seeks to serve all South African citizens who are out of school by providing a diverse range of education and training opportunities from short-skills programmes to full qualifications at all levels of the National Qualifications Framework. Therefore the post-school programme includes all activities carried out to enable the post-school system to function effectively. The implementing agents are the range of institutions I have referred to above and in so far as budget is concerned, some of the institutions are entities with their own budgets.
Public adult learning centres, your former Abet centres are funded through provincial education departments while the Setas, the National Skills Fund and National Artisan Moderating Body are funded through the living grant system. My department provides partial funding for universities and TIVET colleges. Subsidies for public universities, on average, cover 40% of their budgets and are provided through transfers from the Department of Higher Education and Training. The department also provides part of the budget for TIVET colleges while the remaining portion of the budget is currently being provided through provincial education departments.
The fourth part of the questions is in relation to the timeframe for the implementation of the programme. Well, Chair, the post-school education and training system already exists and fortunately we started in this new administration with the White Paper on Post-School Education and Training which provides a new policy direction on how the system can be expanded, how quality can be improved and how we can increase diversity. I thank you.
Ms[nm278] C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, thank you very much for the answer. I would like to know, with specific reference to the short-skills programme and the FET colleges, how does the department assess and fulfil industry needs in areas of skills shortages through this programme?
The[nm279] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, we are now implementing a turnaround strategy on FET colleges. We do believe that the work that we do in the colleges is as good as having employers on board. And that is why we are having constant engagements with the employers so that they are able to tell us their needs and in turn enable us to craft and design the curricular in our colleges in order to respond to the needs of industry and employers.
So, we are working very closely with the employers. The Setas are now beginning to facilitate work-place training for our college students and graduates because they are constantly engaging employers. In fact, to a large extent the Setas are constituted by the employers and therefore that is another platform where we get to engage employers through the Setas because they are levy payers to the Setas. Thank you very much.
Ms[nm280] L L ZWANE: Chairperson, to the hon Minister, thank you for the programmes that your department is rolling out to ensure that we create space for young people or even old people to develop skills because we do understand that there is a shortage of skills in the country, particularly the special skills. To that extent, what motivation generally can the Minister give to young people out there, because we are speaking to the nation, to encourage them to pursue skills development in preparing themselves for careers? Thank you.
The[nm281] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, given the skills mismatch and the shortage of skills in the country, we have embarked on a national road show of really trying to encourage our young people to consider taking up careers along artisanal and technical skills. With the recent launch of the infrastructure-build programme by our President, there are even greater opportunities for our young people to get employment. And, therefore, we will continuously encourage our young people to really heed to our call but also request members of the Council to do the same when they are engaging with their constituencies. We have to channel our young people, all of us, into the kind of skill pipelines that will make them much more eligible for employment.
Mr[nm282] V E MTILENI: Madam Chair, this one is very small and very close to what the hon Deputy Minister has just explained. I just feel that I will have done injustice if I don’t pose this question. There was an institutional name change of tertiary institutions. You will call me to order if I may not be in order, but I think it is very relevant. Regarding institutional name change, in this very democratic country we still have some institutions which are called by their apartheid names. I just want to know from the Deputy Minister if there could be any plans to look into this issue. For instance, we still have the University of Venda which, I think to us, still reminds us of the TBVC states. When the names of most of the institutions were changed that one was never changed and I just want to know if there could be any plans. [Interjections.] If the Chief Whip could at least allow me, I think we will hear from the Deputy Minister if he can be able to answer this one. Please cover me on this one.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Deputy Minister ... [Interjections.]
Mr[nm283] V E MTILENI: Chairperson, with due respect please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, you are covered. The Deputy Minister did make a point that previously we had institutions called FETs which are now called Tivet colleges. And therefore as a follow up to that line, the hon member wants to know whether the University of Venda will continue to retain the same name. It is up to the Deputy Minister.
The[nm284] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chair, to a large extent it is a bit related. Of course, if there is such a call and proposals coming from the people that there should be such a change it shall be considered. We shall put a process in motion and give effect to whatever is proposed by the people. So, for as long as the people of South Africa are still comfortable with the name of the University of Venda, despite the kind of connotations that are still linked to apartheid, then we will not change it. But if there is a call and there is, indeed, a very strong proposal we will definitely consider it. Nothing is undoable.
QUESTION 47
QUESTION 46
Question[nm285] 47:
The[nm286] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Higher Education and Training already has a number of projects under the Strategic Integrated Project, SIP, 14: Higher Education and Training. These are multiyear projects in various stages of development and include the construction of 12 new Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, college campuses and the refurbishment of 2 existing TVET college campuses; the establishment of three new universities, that is, the Sol Plaatje University, the University of Mpumalanga and the Sefako Makgatho Health Sciences University; the establishment of a new medical school at the University of Limpopo; and infrastructure expansion and improvement at universities, including student accommodation.
In addition to the above infrastructure development programme, the department has also led a major project to ensure that adequate skills are developed to ensure the success of all the strategic integrated projects across all levels of occupations. The project commenced in April 2012 with the establishment of a Special Projects unit in the department.
The unit has undertaken a series of steps to determine the skills required, current supply of these skills and consequently, those that are scarce. Having identified a list of skills in demand - some 92 occupations ranging from managers and professionals to artisans, plant and machine operators and elementary workers - the department established occupational teams in August 2013, each consisting of an employer; learning institution, either a university or TVET college; training centre; and an assessment representative. These teams were asked to outline the pathways that need to be travelled from entry to expertise for each occupation as well as to determine where the current blockages are and how these might be addressed.
Ms[nm287] E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the hon Deputy Minister mentions all these projects that are ongoing since April 2012. May we have a complete list of them, please? I presume he has brought the list, because that is what we have asked for. How many of them are on schedule, because they have been going on for some time? We didn’t ask about skills that go with it; we asked about the actual projects. Maybe he wants to embroider on the expansion of the university towns and precincts, which forms part of that project or some of those projects.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, repeat the last part.
Ms[nm288] E C VAN LINGEN: There is phrase that is being used in the SIP 14 that says, expand university towns and precincts. What does that all entail?
The[nm289] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chair, indeed, we can give an outline of where we are with these projects. Safe to say, the three new universities have now been established. Contractors are on site and construction is starting next month. We opted to use existing structures and buildings in the two provinces - Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape - to start up programmes for the 2014 academic year.
In terms of the university towns, I think what we are trying to say is that we want to see growth in the towns where we will establish these universities, because we are quite serious about advancing a knowledge-based economy. Therefore, we want those towns to expand so that our students can be absorbed by the different industries within those towns, when they graduate.
These new universities will be comprehensive universities. They will be both academic and technical and therefore, we have equally partnered with different industries in building these two institutions. In the Northern Cape, AngloGold America has committed to give an amount of about R100 million towards the construction of the university. They are also willing to get others involved in expanding, but also in ensuring that the towns where we will build these universities are expanded. Thank you.
Mr[nm290] V E MTILENI: Madam Chair, I am happy that we are actually posing nice questions today that are beneficial to the community. We have the Giyani College of Education, which now has become a white elephant. It has buildings that are built according to university standards. Do you consider opening one university there, because I don’t think you spent much on infrastructure. It was just to build in files and cabinets to open a university, which could at least be beneficial, because the people of Giyani and the surroundings are at least 250km away from Turfloop. Therefore, I just want to know if you have any plans for that institution. Thank you.
The[nm291] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, I will respond to this question later. I will speak specifically about the former Giyani College of Education.
Mr[nm292] C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, Minister, are all these projects funded to happen within the next three years?
The[nm293] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chair, with regard to the universities, we have a 10-year plan. We have made a point previously that there is no way in the world that you can establish a university today and have full enrolments in the following year or even in three years.
The university will be expanded over a period of time. We have started with borrowed programmes from the different universities. In Mpumalanga, we are offering, for instance, three programmes. We hope to add an additional two next year and so it will go. In the next ten years, we will be a fully fledged university.
We are doing this for the first time. Perhaps, I must just caution members of the Council that we are doing this for the first time. These are two new universities in the postapartheid South Africa. We have to do it right. We are relying on advice that we get from experts on how an institution of higher learning is established, especially a university.
We can never do it in a period of a year or three. We do have a 10-year plan. At least, in 10 years, we hope, we will have fully fledged universities.
The universities are now in existence and we have started offering academic programmes. With regard to the Tivet College campuses, those will be completed within a period of two years, because those are college campuses. It is not new Tivet colleges; it is college campuses.
It will be state of the art campuses. It will be completed within two years, because we have done that before. But, we are doing the universities for the first time. Thank you.
Mr[nm294] C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, maybe the Deputy Minister did not understand my question properly. I was asking specifically about the funding, the budgeting part of it. Is there a budget to do this?
The[nm295] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, of course, the budget will cover the structures that we currently need. It will cover the needs, which are the areas that we have identified. For example, the University of Mpumalanga will focus on agricultural studies. We will introduce academic programmes and the funding will speak to the kind of programmes that we will offer in the interim.
Over the years, we cannot say that the current funding will cover infrastructure for in the next five to 10 years. The current funding is covering what we have identified as a need to start up the university.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think that hon Smit put another question formally in writing so that it can be taken on. I do know that the funding is allocated for the SIPs under the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC. Therefore, the multiyear budget for these two universities is being worked out under the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission.
Mr[nm296] L B GAEHLER: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, I hope I am not catching you off guard on this one. The Walter Sisulu University is deteriorating. The buildings are in a very ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon member is not audible.
Mr[nm297] L B GAEHLER: The Walter Sisulu University’s buildings have deteriorated. The buildings are in a very bad state. Are there any plans to renovate it in this current term or the next term?
The[nm298] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, it is a new question, but I think I will respond to this question later.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, it will be responded to.
QUESTION 70
QUESTION 47
Question[nm299] 70:
The[nm300] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, the response to Question 70 by Dr Mateme is as follows: Yes, the department did reopen the former KwaNdebele College of Education in February 2013 which was under the auspices of the University of Johannesburg. It is now a teacher education campus of the University of Mpumalanga. The campus is a dedicated teacher education campus that currently offers foundation phase teacher education and will be further developed in the future to offer the intermediate phase as well as continuing teacher development programmes. Approximately 200 students have enrolled in the Bachelor of Education programme for the 2014 academic year.
The Sol Plaatjie University in the Northern Cape province has also established a campus in Kimberly from which a Bachelor of Education in senior phase and further education and training teaching is being offered.
Indeed measures are in place to ensure that all institutions offering teacher education qualification programmes implement a new approach to effectively equip new teachers with disciplinary and practical knowledge to effectively teach in the chosen areas of specialization. The department is working holistically with the teacher education system, not just to focus on quantity but also in terms of phases and subject specialisations as well as quality.
As I indicated earlier, new campuses for teacher education will be established depending on the need. We have identified two provinces where there is a dire need for expansion, especially expansion on foundation phase teacher education. The provinces are the Eastern Cape and Limpopo.
In this regard, discussions are underway with relevant universities about the potential reuse of the former Cape College of Education site in the Eastern Cape, and the former Giyani College of Education site in Limpopo. While feasibility studies and planning for the possible expansion to these sites will be undertaken, it is too early to confirm whether these sites will be developed over the next three years. Thank you very much.
The CHIEF[nm301] WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson, I thank the Deputy Minister for informing this august Council and the people of South Africa that good work is in progress and proceeding as planned. I also would like him to reassure me that I am interpreting his answer correctly.
Sepedi[nm302] :
Ka Sepedi ba re ke boseka bo eja goba mathomomayo.
English[nm303] :
This means that we are aware of the need out there. We have just started in this area. It is not only the Giyani area in Limpopo but there are quite a number of them. I just want to be reassured if all these facilities that are idling are, once more, on the plan to be utilised to produce teachers as they were doing before.
The[nm304] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, indeed I want to reassure Dr Mateme and members of the council and the South Africans that in line with the commitment we made three years ago, that we will be reopening the teacher colleges. We did so in Mpumalanga as I have already indicated in my response and we have identified the two provinces as the next provinces where will be reopening the colleges. We will reuse the structures that currently exist there.
We will be continuing with this work. Where there are structures that are idling, with resources allowing, we will indeed try and engage with the relevant provincial departments that are actually having ownership of those sites so that they transfer them to us. Then we will reuse those sites to establish teacher college campuses. Thank you.
Mr[nm305] J W W JULIUS: Deputy Minister, the current provision in the South African Qualifications Authority requires that the initial training of teachers is a B.Ed Degree, in line with opening up teachers’ colleges. To pursue a qualification in education does necessitate a University exemption or, as we call it, a university entrance at matric level.
We know that the majority of our Grade 12 learners, especially from township and rural schools, pass matric with entry to a diploma qualification to pursue studies in diploma. We know that some schools, especially township and rural schools are not there yet in terms of resources and quality matric education at that level, especially in Grade 12. It poses a challenge to those learners. They are left out of the system because they want to go and study education – and I have a lot of examples of this from my local community because I use to work with these learners. They cannot pursue any teaching qualifications. They have to go and rewrite matric and sometimes they don’t even get it right in three years. My question is: Are there any plans to engage the South African Qualifications Framework to reintroduce the Higher Diploma in Education qualification, like we had in the past, as a means to provide an opportunity for prospective teachers without university exemption but only with diploma qualification entrance at matric level?
The[nm306] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, this is already happening. The hon member of council is correct that the college campuses that we are establishing will be under the jurisdiction of the universities. However, in the new campus in Siyabuswa, we have allowed students who did not obtain bachelor passes to get into the diploma programmes within the university. That will be their teacher foundation phase, which will then get them to the actual programme of Bachelor of Education. However, it is already happening at Siyabuswa and we are hoping that with the new campuses that we will be opening it will be the case. It is a discussion that we are having now.
Reopening this – as you know that the government has taken a decision some time back that those who want to pursue teaching must study through universities and that led to what the member is referring to. In trying to reverse that and in light of the shortage of teachers we are trying to reverse some of those decisions. We are starting with Siyabuswa and we will be replicating it to the other college campuses that will be opened. Thank you.
Mr[nm307] M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the hon Deputy Minister is talking about two provinces which is the Eastern Cape and Limpopo in respect of the former colleges of education. I would like to know what the status of a college which was called Umzimkhulu College of Education is. It was formerly in the Eastern Cape province but it is currently in KwaZulu-Natal in Umzimkhulu.
I am saying this because in 2011, just before the local government elections, the hon Minister of Higher Education came to the area and announce that it was going to be reopened as a college of education. When that happened, the Basic Department of Education in the province of KwaZulu-Natal was already in the process of renovating the infrastructure because they were going to relocate their district offices from Kokstad to Umzimkhulu. So they had to stop because of this announcement. I would like to know as to where things stand because people in the area and in the province were told that it was going to be reopened as a college of education, and that Basic Education provincial should stop everything that they were doing. Thank you.
The[nm308] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, if the Minister had made such an undertaking it means we will reopen that teachers’ college. We have identified two for now. I am aware that KwaZulu-Natal and the North West will follow after these two provinces. When we made this commitment we said that we will start with Mpumalanga; then Eastern Cape and Limpopo; then KwaZulu-Natal, North West and we will go on like that.
If there was a process - then it was halted as a result of the Minister’s undertaking. It was not really out of mischief or rather it was not an intention to mislead but we will be reopening that teachers’ college. Where there are existing structures it is even better for us because the process will run much more speedily. Thank you.
Mr[nm309] E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, hon deputy Minister there is a category of educators or what we may want to call teachers as well who are playing a pivotal role in the preparation of the very young ones, those who provide education in the Early Childhood Development,ECD. My question would be: Are there any plans to equip the qualifications, the potential and the skills of people within the ECDs so that they can also prepare our children better – already at that early stage of education? Or is that something that we are leaving to Social Development to manage?
The[nm310] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, indeed there are such plans. In our engagement with the new council and management of the University of Mpumalanga we have emphasised the point that the upskilling of our teachers is very important but also we have to skill our teachers in the different areas including the area that the hon member is raising. So it is part of our plans. Thank you.
QUESTION 82
QUESTION 70
Question[nm311] 82
The[nm312] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, the response to Question 82 by hon Mampuru is as follows: Yes, the department has considered relooking at the funding formula used to calculate the government subsidy for higher education institutions.
The department intents to ensure, through its revision, that the formula does not perpetuate historical imbalances in the funding and status of various higher institutions. Currently a technical team and reference group is working through various recommendations of the report of the Ministerial Committee for the Review of the Funding of Universities which was published in the year 2013.
The team will model the recommendations and consider the consequences of each recommendation of the system as a whole and advice us accordingly. It will develop a new draft funding framework that we intend to publish for public comment before March 2015.
The team is cognisant of the need to ensure that historical imbalances are not perpetuated, and at the same time that the system is not destabilised and all institutions across are adequately funded to provide quality higher education. It is envisaged that the final framework will be published before the end of the 2015-16 financial year for implementation from the 2016-17 financial year onwards.
Indeed, there are measures through which the department ensures that there is more equitable distribution of resources between historically privileged universities and previously disadvantaged and marginalised universities.
In addition, we have already decided to accept one of the recommendations of the ministerial report and introduced an earmarked grant for disadvantaged universities. This grant will commence in the 2015-16 financial year, utilising new funds introduced into the 2015-16 baseline with R410 million to be made available to seven historically disadvantaged universities as development funds to assist them to overcome specific historical challenges.
This grant will be provided annually for a period of five years after which it will be reviewed. Thank you.
Sepedi[nm313] :
Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, o a bolela Tona ge a re thuto ke lesedi, re a leboga.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was a comment, hon Deputy Minister.
QUESTION 84
QUESTION 82
Question 84:
The[nm314] DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The response to Question 84 by the hon Stock is as follows: The department is currently implementing two programmes that are specifically designed to improve learning outcomes at universities, including increasing success and throughput rates. Both programmes focus on improving throughput in the first year of studies and are as follows.
Firstly, earmarked Teaching Development Grants are allocated to universities to implement programmes designed to improve learning outcomes. The Ministerial Statement on the Management and Utilisation of Teaching Development Grants provides clear guidelines and criteria on how the grants must be used in the system; and all universities do receive the grant based on their plans.
First year dropouts have the biggest impact on the overall dropout rate and this has been targeted as a specific intervention. A common activity across most universities involves the implementation of First-Year Experience programmes to develop and provide holistic support for students in their first year. The second programme relates to the funding, which we provide to universities for foundation provisioning.
Significant numbers of students who meet minimum admissions criteria are nevertheless underprepared or unprepared for regular programmes and hence do not succeed or tend to dropout. We therefore seek to enable the students by placing them in an extended curriculum that will give them the academic foundation to successfully complete their studies.
The primary purpose of their foundation provision is to improve the academic performance of students being admitted to mainstream programmes, but who are at risk of dropping out due to their disadvantaged educational backgrounds. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr[nm315] D STOCK: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I think I am well covered. Thank you.
QUESTION 85
QUESTION 84
Question 85:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson[tz316] . The response to Question 85 by Dr Mateme is as follows: Yes, the department has held discussions with higher education institutions regarding the development of the academics - - take note of this, it seems repeated - profession, recruitment, retention and development of academics in higher education. Specifically, the department in conjunction with Higher Education SA, Hesa, held a workshop with relevant Deputy Vice-Chancellors and Deans from all universities to discuss a draft framework for staffing South African universities.
The department recognises the challenges that currently exist in the higher education sector in relation to the size, capacity and composition of its academic staff. The challenge is multi-faced, having to do with an ageing workforce, developments in higher education worldwide that demand ever greater levels of expertise from staff, the relatively underqualified academic staff workforce at our universities, low numbers of postgraduate students representing an inadequate pipeline, and the slow pace of regeneration and transformation of higher education academic staff.
My department has therefore developed a response that builds on previous investigations and international experience in the form of a draft called Staffing South Africa’s Universities Framework, SSAUF, which involves a comprehensive approach to building capacity and developing future generations of academics. We envisage that the final framework will be ready for the first phase of implementation in the 2015-16, financial year.
On the second part of the question, yes indeed, Hesa has conducted an investigation into the issue of academic staff remuneration and the Hesa Board was to consider the matter on 11 September 2014. We will engage with the findings of the Hesa study as a department. However, as the department, we also believe that the framework will create attractive pathways and incentives to attract talented new young recruits to the academic profession. I thank you very much, Chairperson.
Dr H E MATEME: Chairperson of the session, I am answered. I am happy. Thank you.
ANNOUNCEMENT
QUESTION 85
APOLOGY FROM THE MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we proceed to the questions that were put to the Minister of Social Development. We have received an apology from the Minister of Social Development. She has had to get into preparations, go and participate in the activities outside the UN, before - the precursors. She then apologised and said that she is going to be part of the President’s UN visit, so she had to leave early.
She did indicate that she was trying to get the Deputy Minister to come and stand in for her. We must apologise that we have not heard from the Deputy Minister, and we will take the matter up with the
Minister. We therefore want to say that the Minister had suggested that if the Deputy Minister does not turn up, the House should consider postponing these questions for the oral reply in the next session. As I said, we will take up the matter with the Minister, and will comeback to the House. We therefore want to proceed, hon members, to the next set of questions, which are then addressed to the Minister of Sport and Recreation.
QUESTION 57
THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Question 57:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the answer to the first question is: Yes, all the 2010 Fifa World Cup stadia are financially viable and sustainable. Let me say, since 2010 government has managed to sustain and keep stadiums in this country operational. Since they were completed, we all had different revenues and have managed to keep them operational.
The government is now exploring new revenue streams to ensure that in the future, all our stadiums are self-sufficient. Let me add that the new National Facilities Plan and the Grading and Classification Framework that we are working on, provides a sustainability plan to ensure continued viability of all our stadia.
As far as part two of the question is concerned; yes, the department has the National Sport and Recreation Plan that also indicates ... [Interjection.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chetty, is that a point of order?
Mr M CHETTY: No Mam, I posed the question, and I did not hear clearly, what the responses were. That is why I still have to ask if you would please ask the hon Deputy Minister to speak into the microphone. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, the complaint is that you are too soft. You behaved like Barry White.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chair, just now, I tried to raise my voice. [Laughter.] Thank you so much, hon Chair.
I am going to speak into the microphone. [Laughter.]
As far as part two of the question is concerned yes, the department has the National Sport and Recreation Plan that indicates the importance of facilities as one of the enablers in developing the sport. A facilities framework and a facility classification system have been developed and approved to guide the municipalities and provinces to plan and manage the provision and maintenance of their respective facilities.
As far as part (b) of the question is concerned, currently the Department of Sport and Recreation does not fund the provision and management of sport facilities, because we do not receive any budget for it. However, we are engaging stakeholders involved in managing the stadiums. In fact, the Minister of Sport and Recreation heared about the challenges and held a meeting with all the facility managers. That was done as part of protecting the investments made by government on behalf of our people.
The department also has a plan to get 15% of the P component of the municipal infrastructure grant to be ring-fenced and allocated to the national department to assist us address the facilities backlogs, sustain the existing facilities and address the maintenance of all facilities. This will also include addressing, if we have to, the 2010 stadia facility sustainability measures. I thank you.
Mr M CHETTY: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. My follow-up question will be: When the stadiums were constructed, what long-term plan did the department have for the stadiums, due to the fact that municipalities are now squandering council funds to entice soccer teams to the city at the cost of core service delivery issues? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, if I heard the question correctly, when the government put in the bet to host the 2010 Fifa World Cup, we knew that we would leave a lasting legacy for generations to come. It stretched wider and in a follow-up question that I have to answer, we will elaborate more on that.
However, in terms of the stadia and the facility management plan, we have engaged all spheres of government. That is why we say, we would like to see the P component, 15% of that ring-fenced and transferred to the national department, precisely because we do find from time to time, sadly so, that municipalities do not always use the 15% ring-fenced for sport and recreation facilities to address precisely what they need to address.
So, we did plan for that, we are absolutely on our feet, progressing and ensuring that we are not only sustaining and maintaining what we have, but that we preserve this wonderful legacy to host future mega events in our country. I thank you.
Ms L L ZWANE: I want to thank the government of the Republic for making sure that they built those world-class facilities for our citizens. One was wondering how the maintenance of those facilities was going to be provided for. However, we are happy to get the response from the Deputy Minister that their engagements with different stakeholders, for example, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has to ensure that part of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, the MIG funding, does assist in the maintenance of those facilities because we want them to remain beautiful for as long as it is possible to do so. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, I am not sure if there is a question. My next speaker is Mr Mtileni and Mr Khawula will be number four. I am sorry the hon Van Lingen.
Mr V E MTILENI: Chair, mine is just a reminder to the Deputy Minister of Sport. As I indicated earlier on, you see, there are facilities, which are being constructed by municipalities in the rural areas, and they are not of good standard. I may give an example of soccer pitches, which in no way we can say that they are of good standard because the sizes are very small and communities are up in arms in most of the areas.
So, I just want to ask the Deputy Minister to, at least, do inspection - go around where the municipalities have constructed these, and maybe - because there are still good yards there, to make sure that they extend those and improve them to be of good standards because that is where development will come from. Lastly, let me also put this one as a comment as well or as a reminder. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni?
Mr[nm317] V E MTILENI: It is the theme of the very same matter.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You were supposed to make a supplementary question not questions.
Mr V E MTILENI: Okay, thanks Chair.
An HON MEMBER: Do you expect the Deputy Minister to plant grass? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, thank you so much. As indicated to the hon member in the answer that we have given; we have a facilities plan. We know where the deficiency and shortcomings are. We have consulted widely. We are as passionate as any person is, to see those facilities maintained; to see the backlogs addressed in this country so that we can excel in transformation and create opportunities in this country where all the children will start from the same starting line when it comes to participating in sport and recreation. Thank you.
Mr[nm318] M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Minister, besides the venues that were used for the tournament in 2010, there were also secondary venues, which were used for training; hundreds of millions of rands were spent on them. Some of them have deteriorated into becoming wedding and funeral venues. What I would like to know is: Whilst this is maybe an important activity amongst our community, but the core business of the department is sport development, and this sport development is no longer taking place in these training venues, what plans does the department have to ensure that the core business with the intention of this structure is adhered to? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, may I just respectfully remind the hon member again of the answer that we provided, namely that we have consulted with the stakeholders and the stadium’s managers. We have listened to the deficiencies. We are addressing that in terms of the sports facilities plan, comprehensively and I guess we are engaging to see that part of the P component of funds do get transferred.
May I just hasten also to add that yes, although sports development and the stadia are there for sports development; you are referring, hon member, to the 20 training venues that we have built right across the country. We also did so consciously and being mindful that we have to split it into all the nine provinces of this country.
Now, it was also partly designed like all the World Cup stadia, to be multipurpose. In other words, the communities must take ownership of that. Communities must be able to access and use it. So, to have a funeral session in that stadium is absolutely in line with the policy and the thinking. The fact is; it must not only become that. It has to be maintained, and it has to be available for sports and sports development. Thank you.
QUESTION 58
QUESTION 57
Question[nm319] 58:
The[nm320] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, the plan of action for the department is that we have made a presentation for the premier of KwaZulu-Natal and the mayor of eThekwini in respect of our proposal to bid to host the 2022 Commonwealth Games in that wonderful city and province. Let me say that they are both in support of our intention to launch this bid to host.
The presentation that we did covered mainly why we think the time is right for Africa – it’s Africa’s time. Ke nako! Why South Africa? We said in proposals that we have a proven track record to host international events very successfully and that the benefits derived from hosting will, not only be for KwaZulu-Natal and for eThekwini and Durban, but also for the country and the continent. We will be able to use the existing infrastructure that we have there. To this extent a Cabinet memorandum has been prepared by the department and is being processed to be presented to Cabinet for final approval before we proceed.
In terms of part two of the question, when we talk about investment, South Africa always viewed the hosting of the 2010 Fifa World Cup not as an end in itself but in fact as a catalyst to development whose benefits would be felt long after the tournament and Fifa has left our shores. National government had spent at the time in the region of R30 billion on a wide range of projects – transport, roads, airports, ports of entry, telecommunications infrastructure as well as stadiums for the 2010 Fifa World Cup and the 20 training venues. The tournament aimed at leaving an African and South African legacy by increasing the wellbeing of communities and developing a sustainable environment and increasing economic growth.
Hosting the Commonwealth Games will make use of the infrastructure legacy of the 2010 Fifa World Cup in the same way as we did when we hosted the 123rd session of the International Olympic Committee by using, for instance, the broadcast centre in eThekwini. The 2010 Fifa World Cup succeeded in developing and improving South Africa’s infrastructure. We fostered nation-building and social cohesion; we promoted patriotism in our country and national pride; we gave our tourism industry a boost – in fact, we are seeing now, that long after the tournament, as in all the other countries, because of the marketing, the tourists are coming to our country; we have successfully branded South Africa as a destination to visit; we improved our economy be attracting business; and we promoted growth beyond the borders of our country to the benefit of our continent.
These investments made by our government for the 2010 World Cup need to be sustained, and I think we all agree on that. So, the hosting of the Commonwealth Games presents the country with one such an opportunity. The hosting of the Commonwealth Games and if we are lucky enough later on perhaps the bigger one, the price of all, Olympic Games, for the first time in the history of the continent of Africa, will benefit our country and our continent in different ways. There will be job creation, which, undoubtedly, will be created by hosting the Commonwealth Games, and we will create job opportunities for entrepreneurs and for those who are job seekers. We will also create opportunities for our neighbouring countries. We will have economic boosts. By hosting these events we will also boost the country’s economy through infrastructure upgrades; small and medium enterprises and accommodation that we will have to provide. These will have, we know, a long-lasting impact, not only for the country, but for the entire continent. We will once again see a number of foreign tourists visiting our country during these events and it will boost the tourism industry of our country, not only during the build-up, but also after at the hosting of it.
In terms of the third part of the question – infrastructure – the 2010 Fifa World Cup has left a legacy in terms of infrastructure development in the country. It can be attributed to four sports facilities, hospitality and our transport infrastructure.
Let me just say that the state-of-the-art Moses Mabida Stadium that was built for the 2010 Fifa World Cup, can host, as we know, well over 70 000 spectators. The field was designed to accommodate an athletics track around it. Within the precinct is the Durban Swimming Pool not far from there, which meets international standards and we know that we have successfully hosted national and various international championships there. The city provides excellent cycling facilities for the road events of cycling.
When we talk about the road infrastructure there, South Africa has an excellent road network, spanning the entire country and Durban is connected to the rest of the country by an excellent road and bus network, served by busses of international standard. When we talk about air access, Durban is easily accessibly internationally and locally by air through the King Shaka International Airport, which is about 25 minutes north of Durban city centre. It also offers domestic flights to all the major ports in our country. When we talk about land access, a range of busses and coach services are available in Durban and KwaZulu-Natal. These include commuter bus services, point-to-point shuttle and long-distance coach services and a number intercity luxury coach operators, which offer daily business trips between Durban and other major cities like Johannesburg with up to three approximately eight-hour trips being available every day. Durban also offers extensive taxi services. We know that metre taxis are available as well as those to be ordered to take you to specific locations around there. All major international car hire companies are represented throughout South Africa including Durban, the airport and in KwaZulu-Natal. When we talk about access by water, the port of Durban, commonly known as Durban Harbour, is the largest and the busiest shipping terminal on the African continent. It is strategically placed on a major international shipping route and is South Africa’s main cargo and container terminal. Just for interest’s sake, it handles up to 31,4 million tons of cargo each year. It is the fourth largest container terminal in the southern hemisphere. The recently published Mastercard’s Global Destination Cities Index has indicated Durban with its important and busy seaport and says it will be this year’s fastest growing city in Africa and will be the second fastest growing tourism city of the 102 cities surveyed worldwide. When we talk about an integrated rapid public transport network, we know that the city’s future access to routes will allow for more effective air, road and rail transport. The city also rolled out plans for its integrated rapid public transport network called Go!Durban plans, which include a high-speed train between Johannesburg and Durban. When we talk about accommodation and conference venues, we all know that Durban provides from three to five star accommodation within close proximity of the sporting precinct and the international convention centre and other sporting venues. There are numerous superior quality guest houses, motels, inns, bed and breakfast establishments as well as self-catering lodges, youth hostels and timeshare apartments within a one-hour drive, or 50 km from the city centre. The variety gives options to stay on the beach or in a quiet and leafy suburb or in a vibrant restaurant district or in a nature reserve or in whatever nearby transport mode you may want.
When we go to part (b), then we talk about the capacity to deliver this event, South Africa has demonstrated its capability to stage successfully stage many events, ably supported by the willing assistance of many volunteers and support from government. We have previously hosted not only the 2010 Fifa world Cup, but previously the 2009 Confederations Cup. We have successfully hosted on short notice the 2013 African Cup of Nations, the international Cricket World Cup, international Rugby World Cup, the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, we hosted the Cop 17 conference in December 2011 and the Brics Summit in March 2013.
When South Africa decides to bid to host the 2010 Fifa World Cup it was done on the basis that the tournament should leave a lasting legacy for our country and our children. The strategic legacy objectives were clearly defined and, when reviewed, the successes of the tournament confirmed that a number of these objectives were achieved. A bid to host the Commonwealth Games is submitted by a bid committee and acting on behalf of identified stakeholders, once government has agreed, it will be supported by the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, and the final contract will be signed by the Commonwealth Games Federation and the host cities, respectively, with Sascoc.
The bid process will require strong support from all three tiers of government and evidently so will the guarantees that will have to be submitted as part of the bid. Based on the experience of hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup, a bid committee would be established, including major stakeholders chaired by Sascoc. Given the significant role of the interministerial committee and the role it played in preparing for the 2010 Fifa World Cup and the lessons learnt from that, we will have an interministerial committee to be considered for the bidding process of the Commonwealth Games. There is significant decision-making experience in Sascoc in our country and all three tiers of government should we decide to go ahead to launch this bid.
In conclusion, the expertise of Brand SA and the other entities we can use and were used during the 2010 Fifa World Cup will be key in the bidding process for branding South Africa as a destination of choice. Thank you.
Mr[nm321] C F B SMIT: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of clarity, I just wanted to make sure whether the Deputy Minister maybe thought we were the bid committee for the presentation to be delivered.
The HOUSE[nm322] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Don’t respond, hon Deputy Minister, it is not his time.
Mr[nm323] H B GROENEWALD: Deputy Chair, I want to thank the hon Deputy Minister for his reply on the question, and I haven’t got a follow-up on that. I wish them, from all of us, good luck for the future. Thank you very much.
Ms[nm324] T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chair, I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister, as the only financially viable stadium, the Moses Mabida is now being granted further opportunity to develop, why is that?
The[nm325] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, no, I don’t think Moses Mabida is the only viable stadium we have. But we were saying that it was designed in such a way that we can put an athletics track around it. It is viable at the moment and we are very proud of that masterpiece and arch that was created at the waterfront of the wonderful city of eThekwini.
Ms[nm326] B G NTHEBE: Chair, the Deputy Minister was eloquent in his presentation. I just want to check in terms of the legacy of the infrastructural development that comes about, are we also including or seeking to expand and include stadiums like the Mmabatho Stadium that was not part of the legacy programme, as identified?
The[nm327] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, just on a point of clarity, if hon members read the question that we had to respond to, we had to respond to every part of the question asked. I did not present to a proposed bid committee on behalf of government, we just responded to the question asked. [Laughter.] That’s all. And we did so thoroughly.
Thank you for the question. We will be guided in the bid process, should government give the final nod once we have presented to Cabinet and they have applied their mind together with the bid city and the province, we will then take that into account. But I can assure hon members in the NCOP that government will never ever agree to a bid that will not leave a lasting legacy and give benefits to the wider community in South Africa, including our continent.
We live in an age where we have to consolidate the African Agenda. I thank you.
Ms[nm328] E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister, and I’m not sure, I heard he said that there is lots of accommodation available in and around Durban and you can stay wherever you like at the coast or the sea or whatever, but every single of the games when it comes to athletics has a village for the participants, the athletes. Has that been included? I didn’t hear any comment on that. And where is the space for that in Durban?
The[nm329] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, thank you so much to the hon member for the question. No, we did not speak about the athletes’ village – not only for the participating athletics, all the athletes. We did not speak about that, because it was not part of the question. But yes, it will be part of the planning. We all know that you have to have an athletes’ village. Let me just remind the hon House of the NCOP that when we hosted the All Africa Games in Alexandra we created an athletes’ village and turned it into housing afterwards, so it was beneficial to the community of that part of the world in Gauteng. We will do the very same. Like I said, we will never, if Cabinet approves, go ahead without leaving a lasting legacy and leaving benefit to society at large.
QUESTION 81
QUESTION 58
Question[nm330] 81:
The[nm331] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the first question is as follows: Yes, the department has relevant programmes in each case as asked by the question. In order to encourage a healthy life style the National Department of Sports and Recreation implements the big-walk campaign annually across all nine provinces. This is in line with the Association Sports for All which declared October as a Walking Month and the first Sunday in October as the start of the Walking Month world wide.
In addition our department, in collaboration with the identified stakeholders such as the Barry Stander Foundation and Cycling SA, also has a Cycle for Life programme aimed at encouraging school children and youth to use nonmotorised transport by cycling to and from school, and also to participate in cycling events. Further, the department is currently seeking Cabinet’s approval for the declaration of the first Friday of October annually to be declared national recreation day with the aim to encourage the South African public to participate in moderate recreational activities that should become part and parcel of leading a healthy and active life style.
The answer to the second part of the first question is as follows: In order to address the identification and development of talent among the youth, the Department of Sports and Recreation in partnership with the Department of Basic Education in our country is implementing the School Sport Strategy focused on learners under 12 years of age up to those that are under 19 in 16 different sporting codes. The department has a core of trained talent scouts who identify talent at the district, provincial and national levels. Learners that were identified as highly talented in the national championships are identified by bar code and offered a Ministerial Sports Bursary which enables them to continue to nurture their sporting talent while they participate in sports.
The nurturing of the identified talent takes place in sport-focused schools which collaborate with provincial departments under the Department of Basic Education. Talent is also nurtured at provincial and district academies of sports which provide a range a of medical and scientific support services amongst others.
The answer to the first part of the second question is as follows: Yes, the programme includes development of public gyms. Public gyms with equipment were installed in renovated buildings belonging to municipalities, identified by the nine provinces. These are known as indoor community gyms. The department also hands over equipments which are installed in municipal areas consisting mostly of parks. These are known as outdoor community gyms and our department has, up to now, installed 12 community outdoor gyms across the nine provinces and there are another nine outdoor community gyms that will be installed in the current financial year as we speak.
The answer to the second part of second question is as follows: Yes, the programme includes the development of sports faculties. The facilities that have been developed include the following: Multipurpose sport courts that have been completed in collaboration with the sports trust; through the Ministerial Sport Outreach Programme, 12 schools have been beneficiaries of multipurpose courts which can accommodate four sporting codes that can be played in those courts interchangeably. This includes netball, basketball, futsal and volleyball. Sports for Change projects in collaboration with the German Development Bank, KfW, include multipurpose courts, soccer field, rugby fields and children’s play areas. More facilities are also built by municipalities through the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG.
The answer to the third part of the second question is as follows: All programmes that that we spoke about have commenced and these are implemented in all nine provinces targeting previously disadvantaged areas. I thank you.
Mr[nm332] L SUKA: Chairperson, I must appreciate the response by the Ministry of Sports and Recreation. As such I would encourage them to roll out that programme throughout the country. The partnership between the Department of Sports and Recreation and the private sector should also be encouraged because it talks directly to the wellness of South Africans - so that we beat this obesity and all other related diseases affecting our people. Otherwise I think I have asked a question on behalf of these members.[Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon member does not have a question but a comment. Do you want to come in hon Deputy Minister?
The[nm333] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, just to thank the hon Suka but also to mention that, yes, we have announced sponsorship by private sector. For instance, Brothers Food has come on board supporting various codes. So, we are engaging the private sector. Regarding the wonderful remark by the hon member on fighting obesity by being active, walking briskly every day and living a healthy lifestyle, I want to say: Viva a luta continua! [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Chair, a follow up question therefore would be: Does that respond take into account the fact that in the villages where members reside there is an infrastructure and therefore is the department in a position to lobby that facilities to be installed in the villages to ensure that it speaks to the fitness and lifestyle of the community members that are residing there?
The[nm334] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the answer to that very positive question is undoubtedly, yes. We do have sports and recreation facilities plan filled in by norms and standards. We know that we can’t build stadiums for 70 000 sitters all over the country. You have to define what is needed. If you have to roll out a multipurpose facility in villages we are going to have multipurpose courts where sporting codes are practiced and we will do that.
This is why we are in a massive drive to get 15% of the P-Component of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant ring-fenced and transferred to the national Department of Sports and Recreation. This we do so that we can come to all the villages and address the backlog against our facilities plan and, I want to repeat, maintain and upgrade what we must so that we create access for all our children to sports and ensure that all of us, in this country, begin from the same starting line when it comes to sports. That is the only way we will make a dent and a difference in the transformation of our sport. Thank you.
QUESTION 101
QUESTION 81
Question 101:
The[nm335] DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, the reply is: No, South Africa has not surrendered its sovereignty to FIFA in matters relating to football. The question of the governance of football, like all other sports, in this case, football, rests with the recognised National Federation. In South Africa’s case it is the SA Football Association, commonly known as SAFA.
The SA Football Association, SAFA[tz336] , is an affiliate of the international governing body for football, which is FIFA. The technical aspects of the game and its governance therefore fall within the jurisdiction of FIFA internationally, and are governed by its statutes, no matter in which country the game is played.
This is required in order for uniformity of the game and its rules; otherwise the result would be of different standards, rules and regulations being implemented, which would lead without doubt to chaos. The governing bodies of football thus have internal mechanisms to deal with any allegations of mismanagement or corruption.
As far as part two of the question is concerned, the matter concerning the investigation of allegations of match-fixing involving Bafana Bafana, the national team, in the warm-up of games leading to the 2010 FIFA World Cup did receive the attention of the Minister.
The Minister of Sport and Recreation had, based on a report received from the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, decided that it would be prudent and necessary in the light of the seriousness of the allegations and the supporting documents to approach the President of the country, in terms of section 13(4) of the National Sport and Recreation Act of 1998, as amended, to consider appointing a commission of inquiry into match-fixing and the affairs of soccer.
The President decided that at the time, it was not prudent to appoint a commission of inquiry. The matter is receiving the attention of FIFA and when the internal processes of FIFA have been exhausted, the South African government will be advised of the findings and recommendation after the conclusion of the investigation done by FIFA. Based on the findings and recommendations of FIFA, the President may then appoint a commission of inquiry, if necessary. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Any follow up question, the hon Mtileni?
Mr[nm337] V E MTILENI: All in order, Ma’m, none.
The HOUSE[nm338] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Okay, thank you, hon member. Is there any other supplementary question?
MEMBERS: None!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Let me take this opportunity and thank you for your time, hon Deputy Minister, you are done. We are now going to approach the question from the members to the Minister of Water and Sanitation.
QUESTION 60
QUESTION 101
Question 60:
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the Nooitgedacht-Coega Low Level Scheme, NCLLS, is a Metropolitan scheme that is not funded by the department. Therefore, sub questions (2) and (3) do not apply. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, it is shocking to hear that the project is not funded by the department. If it’s not funded by this department, which department is funding the project? About R350 or R400 million was already given, but there is another R350 million short on the project. We discovered that when we were busy on our provincial week in Port Elizabeth, that there is equal shortfall by the Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan and, what restrictions are going to be set in by 1 October? There is a crisis of more than a million people who will be without water. Can the Minister advise us where this project is going, please?
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Yes, I will. The simplest advice I will give to you again is that, the municipality itself has a responsibility to engage with the National Treasury, and that is the intervention as we speak now. It is not the department that should actually be doing that. Even what the member is raising that the money came from the department, it’s not so, it’s the grants that are allocated directly from the National Treasury to the local authorities. Thank you.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, please don’t avoid calling my name. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana. [Laughter.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, to the hon Minister, since the department is in the habit of handing out funds, will the Minister also give money to the Makana and Cederberg Local Municipalities to resolve their dire water supply problems? I want to know.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon members, the municipalities get their conditional grants through the National Treasury. There are Municipal Infrastructure Grants; then there’s an Industrial Development Zone, IDZ, which is provided for by the department. That money goes to bulk infrastructure. On all other matters that are related to water supply, it is the responsibility of the local authority.
We can’t miraculously come in and deal with everything that the local authority has to deal with. Unless there is a challenge, then it becomes the responsibility of the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to come in and assist that municipality. Thank you.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, I know that it’s difficult to pronounce my surname; it is hon Motlashuping.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Hon Motlashuping.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Minister, let me take advantage of your presence here. This is a new question. [Interjections.] No, you must be patient. The reason why I’m posing this question is because the community of Swarsrenek in Mamosa Municipality have had a problem. There’s a water connection from Bloemhof to Swarsrenek, I’m not sure how far that process is, if you are able to answer to the specific question that I’m asking; and if you are not able, Minister, I will respect your view because it’s a new question. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Thank you, hon Motlashuping. It is good that you know that it is a new question, but it is up to the hon Minister if she will be able to answer it.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: In order for any other hon member not to ask about the local municipality where they come from, the local government gets conditional grants to deal with water issues. It also has to have operation and maintenance programmes to deal with water supply. Unless otherwise it is part of a national programme, and the intervention comes on the basis of what Cogta has assessed through its performance monitoring, then the national government steps in through the water boards.
Regarding the issues of Bloemhof and Mamosa, again those are issues of local government, and just to move out of this scheme, next Thursday the President will be convening a Summit on Local Government. Part of it is to reposition local government to deal with these kinds of issues, while even reviewing the issues of the allocation of grants directly to local authorities in the capacity of local government. So, I assume that there will be no other questions about your municipality in Ekurhuleni. Thank you. [Laughter.]
QUESTION 62
QUESTION 60
Question[nm339] 62:
The[nm340] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chair and hon members, the Draft Environmetal Impact Report on the Umzimvubu Scheme is scheduled from mid-October to November 2014. Then there will be a final impact report that is scheduled from mid-November 2014 and authorisation from the Department of Environmental Affairs is scheduled for the end of December 2014 or January 2014.
Let me say that a project does not start with brick and mortar. It starts with the conceptualisation of a project, the designs, the development of a business plan. That is part of the implementation of a project. That is what we need to start sorting out, because in many instances when members don’t see brick and mortar on the ground then they think the project is not happening. For lack of a better word, I am told it is part of project management. It’s starts with conceptualisation, the development of designs and then the three very important matters that are related to the Environmental Impact Report. Thank you.
The HOUSE[nm341] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister. I just got an indication that hon Van Lingen is responsible for this question from hon JJ Londt. Do we have a follow-up question?
Ms[nm342] E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I notice a very serious hint of sarcasm from the Minister; as if she is talking down on us for not knowing how a project starts. I can say that the environmental studies were done by 2012 already. So, I would like to know which areas this dam will be supplying water to. In recent reports and rumours I have been informed that the water will even go as far as the Nelson Mandela Bay Metro.
The[nm343] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I can’t respond to rumours. That is just gossip. It is safe to say that the hon member is right. The Environmental Impact Assessment, EIA, process is what she is referring to. Post the EIA, you have to open an opportunity for comments, that’s part of the National Environmental Management Act. What I am referring to is the Environmental Impact Report that everybody will have to come in and comment on - somebody objecting to a frog; another to a butterfly; and others to stones. That has to happen. The rumours are far from what we are doing. I am not cynical. I assumed that hon members would actually understand the laws that govern the implementation of projects. Thank you.
QUESTION 63
QUESTION 62
Question[nm344] 63:
The[nm345] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon members, what has happened with the Nkomazi Local Municipality is that the water supply programme was gazetted as the Municipal[rm346] Water Infrastructure Grant in the Division of Revenue Act, Act 10 of 2014. So it’s not even in our allocation. It was in the Division of Revenue Act, Act 10 of 2014 for that particular municipality and that budget has been allocated to the tune of R296 million. It is used for various projects that are currently in progress.
Secondly, with regard to the eMalahleni Local Municipality – we are involved because of the Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant, RBIG, which is then the responsibility of the national department. We are dealing with the laying out of bulk water infrastructure through that grant, and R51 million has been made available. It is done in three phases.
What is of importance is that the department only has the responsibility to release funds for the RBIG and, where necessary, we intervened after we realised that the municipality couldn’t even manage its own municipal water infrastructure grant and other grants that are related to this. We involved the water board.
We make other interventions that can accelerate the work that has to be done. I want to repeat again; those are grants that move from National Treasury to local authorities. The[rm347] best people who can respond to these questions in future are from the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and Cogta to a very limited extent, and National Treasury. Thank you.
Mr[nm348] F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you for your reply - not that I’m totally convinced. So, I must ask you hon Minister, considering the fact that eMalahleni Local Municipality is still under administration, and you so aptly just now mentioned that your department has a right to intervene in terms of the issues surrounding water and sanitation. What do you and your department intend to do regarding the continuous flow of raw sewerage into the Witbank Dam, considering also the horrendous sewerage stench engulfing residential areas, which is, of course, causing a major hazard to communities. What are your serious intentions, hon Minister, to resolve this problem? Are you going to motivate through the Department of Water Affairs that this municipality and its officials be charged through the National Environmental Management Act, Act 107 of 1998, which you have just alluded to?
The[nm349] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: We are not here to convince one another, but to report on facts. What I want to raise here is that the challenges that are at eMalahleni have to do with the capacity of local government in its entirety. That is why that municipality is under administration. So, it cannot be the intervention of Water and Sanitation. There is no longer a department called water affairs in the Republic of South Africa. That’s also quite important. What I really want to indicate is that we will come in when we deal with the issues of incapacity and the inability to spend in line with what is, in our view, in the RBIG and where conditional grants have gone through National Treasury. We work in consultation with National Treasury.
What is happening at eMalahleni - I assume the hon member is also quite aware that we have brought in Rand Water to assist as per the directive that came from National Treasury. The National Environmental Management Act, Act 107 of 1998, issues, have to do with environmental issues, including health and safety standards which must be enforced by the municipality and not by the department. We do not enforce National Environmental Management Act, Act 107 of 1998. We comply with National Environmental Management Act, Act 107 of 1998.
Ms[nm350] L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, thanks to the Minister for the responses that she has given. [Interjections.][nm351] If you want us to discuss Mbombela, put it on the order paper. I am prepared to discuss Mbombela. Hon Minister, after listening to the questions, are you at some stage responsible for the[rm352] Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs because, to me, most of the questions that are being asked are related to this department? [Laughter.]
The[nm353] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon Chair, thank you hon Dlamini. That’s exactly what I am raising. These questions, ordinarily, one would have said, have nothing to do with me. But, out of respect for the Council and the fact that we are just over 100 days in the fifth administration, I felt that I should come to this august Council and say: Separate the[rm354] Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs from us and let’s exercise oversight. Hon members must not bring other peripheral and frivolous issues to the fore. As I have said, Rand Water is involved. There are municipalities that are under administration and the[rm355] Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs can better indicate the capacity of local government. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Thank you, Minister. That was loud and clear. Any other follow-up question?
Ms[nm356] C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, could the hon Minister also tell us whether, she thinks it is necessary, and if not, why not, that there is an interministerial or interdepartmental committee between the Department of Water and Sanitation, the[rm357] Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the National Environmental Management Act, Act 107 of 1998, because all these questions are transversal issues that cannot be solved in silos.
The[nm358] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Minister Pravin Gordhan, who is the Minister for the[rm359] Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs , is the convenor of a Cabinet committee that deals with service delivery. That committee comprises all the key departments; the Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation, Social Development and National Treasury, to name but a few. The intentions thereof, are to make sure that we move away from a silo approach. I would also invite members of the House to select what is going to be presented as a way forward of how best we want to deal with issues of service delivery in an integrated manner during the summit that the President will be hosting,. Thank you.
Mr[nm360] C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, I am just wondering whether this department didn’t get the wrong name and rather should have been called the ministry of bulk water services, because it seems like it has no responsibility. I want to know, in the light of what the Minister has said when it comes to municipal services on water and sanitation that her department doesn’t have anything to do with that. Where does that department come into play then? Do we put our hands in the air and say: Well, it’s not my problem shift it on. That is what the name of the department says. Then there is a total misrepresentation on the name. I just need some clarity on that. Thank you.
The[nm361] DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chair, I hope I won’t be accused of being a member of the executive, but, I’m rising on a point - whether you call it information or what, because what members are raising now is precisely what we grappled with as the NCOP. When we looked at our constitutional mandate we said, central to our work is to strengthen intergovernmental relations and co-operation. These are some of the things that members are beginning to raise.
The last comment is not even a question. It’s a last side comment which would need us as Members of the Council to sit down and reflect on some of these matters and say how then do we ensure that we move forward by bringing together the departments, the[rm362] Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, National Treasury, Water and Sanitation, Human Settlements and so forth. There would be nothing wrong in us acknowledging that there’s an issue, and whether we deal with it as a topical issue and have a debate with all the Ministers under one roof.
I would just propose that we don’t put the Minister in a situation where she would definitely have no option but to withdraw from even answering the question. Thank you.
The HOUSE[nm363] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Thank you, hon Tau, Deputy Chairperson of the Council; I believe that you have cleared everything – all the frustrations experienced as an hon member. We now continue with our questions. Question 69 is from the hon Khawula.
QUESTION 69
QUESTION 63
Question 69:
IsiZulu[nm364] :
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NOKUTHUTHWA KWENDLE: Ngiyabonga Bab’ uKhawula.
English:
The uThukela Water is an entity that was established by the provincial government of KwaZulu-Natal through their Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in terms of the Municipal Systems Act, and it is then accountable to that department. As to why then did they decide to actually dissolve the water board, the answers can be better found with the KwaZulu-Natal department. Again, I’m saying, decently so, that it is 100 days and we will all learn ... [Interjections.]
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the hon Tau has just explained how we work together. In this House, we do the local government; the provincial government and the national government. We cannot ask questions to the provincial governments; we ask them to the national Minister who must then respond. This is a point of order, which is a deviation immediately after the hon Tau made a very valid point.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Okay, hon Tau, do you want to respond to what the hon Van Lingen has said?
Mr R J TAU: No!
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: I have already said that it is the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial government that established the uThukela. And they again, decided on their own to do away with the water board. They can, therefore, be better placed to give that response in that regard. The NCOP is also better positioned because it deals with the provincial affairs as well. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, be that as it may, this water board was responsible for the bulk water supply to the district municipalities of uThukela, Amajuba and Umzinyathi. Now, there were stories about the issues of mismanagement and corruption. I’m not contesting the dissolution; in fact, it was a very good move. But what I’m saying is, the government cannot allow a situation where fingers are pointing at people for mismanagement but nothing gets done, that is my contestation, hon Minister. There is something that needs to be done, and has to be done by the powers that be. And to me, it is the Department of Water and Sanitation that needs to do something to the people who were culprits on the issues of mismanagement in that board. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NOKUTHUTHWA KWENDLE: Mhlonishwa Khawula, angeke nje size sigxambukele enkingeni okungesiyona eyethu. Lo mthwalo wumthwalo kahulumeni waKwaZulu-Natali. Yibona ababumba leli Bhodi lezaManzi futhi emva kokwenza uphenyo lwabo babona ukuthi mabalichithe leli bhodi bathathe wonke amandla alo bawabuyisele kubo njengoMnyango. Ngalokho-ke akukho emandleni ami ukuthi ngigxambukele, ngifune ukungena inkinga engabhekene nami.
Okokuqala engizonixwayisa ngakho la kulo mhlangano ukuthi bhekani izincwadi zoMcwaningimabhuku-Jikelele zoMnyango kahulumeni wokuBambisana nezindaba zezeNdabuko ngoba zizohambelana nesimo saleli Bhodi lezaManzi nokuthi kwenzekani, indaba yokuthi kwaba nokukhwabanisa lapho kwadliwa izimali, noma kwaba nomkhonyovu ngempela ngempela ngiqinisile ngithi angikwazi lokho iBhodi lezaManzi elaKwaZulu-Natali. Umsebenzi uthathwe uMnyango kaHulumeni wokuBambisana nezindaba zezeNdabuko futhi uyaqhubeka nawo. Izinkinga zixazululwa yiwona uMnyango kaHulumeni wokuBambisana nezindaba zezeNdabuko isebenzisana nehhovisi loMcwaningimabhuku-Jikelele KwaZulu-Natali. Ngiyabonga.
QUESTION 91
QUESTION[nm365] 69
Question[nm366] 91:
The[nm367] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The spillage of any polluted water into the environment is regulated by the department under the provisions of the National Water Act, Act 36 of 1998. In terms of the acid mine drainage, AMD, this phenomenon previously occurred in the Krugersdorp area where I come from, where the acid mine drainage from an abandoned mine shaft overflowed into the environment.
In 2011, an emergency solution to avert acid mine drainage-related socioeconomic and environmental risks was implemented. The emergency solution involves the treatment of the AMD, by neutralising technology which removes toxins, dissolves metals from the AMD and adjusts the temperature levels thus making the water safer for the environment.
With regard to question two, yes, an intergovernmental task team has been put in place. It is chaired by the Acting Director-General of the Department of Water and Sanitation. It is tasked with overseeing the management of all AMD and mine water-related issues.
Of importance as well is that the President in the fifth administration has decided to establish an interministerial committee of Cabinet that would deal with the mandate for water resources and environmental protection. In a few weeks time we will be calling on service providers and those who have the capacity to come and help us deal with AMD, not only on an emergency basis, but also right across South Africa where we have similar challenges, including the eastern basin of Gauteng which is currently a priority. Thank you very much.
Mr[nm368] O SEFAKO: Hon Chair, I think the question is a confirmation that indeed there is intergovernmental collaboration in addressing such challenges. I appreciate that, but with reference to sanitation spillage in some communities, particularly in the area around Madibeng, if there is an intergovernmental collaboration I hope all that horrible smell that has been haunting the community at Madibeng will indeed be eradicated. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE[nm369] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE: Thank you, hon Sefako, that was a comment. Any question from the hon members? We will now go to the last question.
QUESTION 106
Question 91
Question[nm370] 106:
- [nm371] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon House Chairperson, in 2005 it was estimated that there were 252 254 buckets in use in formal or established areas in South Africa. These buckets existed before the democratic government took over the administration of the country in 1994. An earmarked budget of R1,8 billion was made available by National Treasury to eradicate buckets in formal areas between 2005 and 2008. Ninety-eight per cent of these buckets were replaced under this programme. However, some buckets in the Eastern Cape, Free State and Northern Cape could not be removed due to difficult ground conditions, lack of bulk services and/or inadequate financial resources. Buckets which existed after 1994, in both formal and informal areas, were not included in this programme hence the existence of bucket sanitation.
With regard to the second question, in October 2013, government made a commitment to eradicate all existing buckets in all types of settlements, both formal and informal, in a period of three years. An earmarked budget of a total of R2,5 billion has been allocated to the programme with R650 million for the 2013-14 financial year, R899 million for the 2014-15 financial year and R975 million for the 2015-16 financial year .
The new department, which has now actually inherited this particular mandate, together with the Department of Human Settlements and the Department of Co-operative Governance are working together to ensure that the bucket system of sanitation is eradicated. However, what we need is proper planning at municipal level, which has to be strengthened and to ensure that there is improvement so that new households are provided with appropriate sanitation services instead of bucket toilets. Also, we are moving away from a one-size-fits-all approach because it is not only the waterborne sewerage system which is a solution in South Africa. We have now called for submissions and requests for information. I assume that the hon members of this House have seen, through the media, the request for information on the use of alternative technology.
Given the fact that South Africa is a water-challenged country and considering the fact that the ground conditions in some of the areas would actually make it difficult for us to have a waterborne solution, we want to move beyond a one-size-fits-all approach, and have decent diverse products which can be utilised. We do not want those products which our people are made to live with in their shacks, like here in the Western Cape which made the Human Rights Commission to actually say: “It is a crime against humanity.” [Interjections.]
The HOUSE[nm372] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Hon Minister, there is a point of order. Please take your seat.
Ms[nm373] E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: The buckets in the Eastern Cape are far more disgraceful and undignified than what is going on in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE[nm374] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: That is not a point of order, hon Van Lingen!
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I ask the Minister to withdraw her statement.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon van Lingen! Hon van Lingen that is not a point of order! Please sit! Hon Minister, please finish.
The[nm375] MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you. Hon members, I have relatives of my mother who live here in the Western Cape, in a shack. They are six in that shack. They have a 15-litre tank inside the shack. They live with it for a period of more than three weeks. Those buckets in the Eastern Cape are outside and they are much better because nobody has to relieve himself or herself in front of everybody or while meals are being prepared. Just because members have not lived in those conditions and do not know people who are affected by these things; they will believe that these facilities are better. But they are worse off. It’s not me, it is not this government, it is not the ANC, but it is the Human Rights Commission which says the worse off is here in the Western Cape. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Dr[nm376] Y C VAWDA: Hon House Chairperson, I request that the hon Minister ensures that this is made a priority and that there will be proper planning at all levels of government, especially at local government level in order to ensure that this eradication does take place as a matter of urgency. We will, of course, be monitoring the progress in this regard. Thank you, House Chairperson.
The HOUSE[nm377] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: It is not a question, it is a request. So, we can continue. If ever there are questions ... [Interjections.] ... oh, alright. Hon Minister, the hon members are satisfied that you have done a good job. [Interjections.]
ANNOUNCEMENT
The HOUSE[nm378] CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNMENT: Order hon members! The hon members should note that replies to the questions to the Minister of Social Development have been submitted to the Questions Office this afternoon.
That concludes our work for today. Have a good night, hon members.
The Council adjourned at 20:10[nm379] .
[nm1][[xxx Sep 16 13:43:41 2014]]
[nm2][[xxx Sep 16 13:49:49 2014]]
[rm3]We do not abbreviate department’s names.
[rm4]Should have checked what this PEC stands for1
[rm5]Mishearing.
[rm6]should have been researched cos IDP can mean other things as well.
[rm7]One word, see uniformity guide.
[nm8][[xxx Sep 16 13:57:49 2014]]
[nm9][[xxx Sep 16 13:52:46 2014]]
[nm10][[xxx Sep 16 13:59:27 2014]]
[nm11][[xxx Sep 16 14:10:59 2014]]
[nm12][[xxx Sep 16 14:11:06 2014]]
[nm13][[xxx Sep 16 14:11:11 2014]]
[nm14][[xxx Sep 16 14:14:22 2014]]
[nm15][[xxx Sep 16 14:16:34 2014]]
[nm16][[xxx Sep 16 14:18:11 2014]]
[nm17][[xxx Sep 16 14:18:41 2014]]
[nm18][[xxx Sep 16 14:19:02 2014]]
[nm19][[xxx Sep 16 14:19:36 2014]]
[nm20][[xxx Sep 16 14:20:23 2014]]
[nm21][[xxx Sep 16 14:20:23 2014]]
[nm22][[xxx Sep 16 14:20:27 2014]]
[nm23][[xxx Sep 16 14:23:33 2014]]
[nm24][[xxx Sep 16 14:23:48 2014]]
[S25]See uniformity guide.
[nm26][[xxx Sep 16 14:24:30 2014]]
[nm27][[xxx Sep 16 14:27:39 2014]]
[nm28][[xxx Sep 16 14:28:13 2014]]
[nm29][[xxx Sep 16 14:28:28 2014]]
[nm30][[xxx Sep 16 14:29:35 2014]]
[nm31][[xxx Sep 16 14:29:44 2014]]
[nm32][[xxx Sep 16 14:32:30 2014]]
[nm33][[xxx Sep 16 14:32:34 2014]]
[nm34][[xxx Sep 16 14:35:49 2014]]
[nm35][[xxx Sep 16 14:36:05 2014]]
[nm36][[xxx Sep 16 14:37:31 2014]]
[nm37][[xxx Sep 16 14:37:46 2014]]
[nm38][[xxx Sep 16 14:38:47 2014]]
[nm39][[xxx Sep 16 14:39:00 2014]]
[nm40][[xxx Sep 16 14:39:02 2014]]
[nm41][[xxx Sep 16 14:40:00 2014]]
[nm42][[xxx Sep 16 14:40:02 2014]]
[nm43][[xxx Sep 16 14:41:24 2014]]
[nm44][[xxx Sep 16 14:41:37 2014]]
[nm45][[xxx Sep 16 14:43:24 2014]]
[nm46][[xxx Sep 16 14:43:48 2014]]
[nm47][[xxx Sep 16 14:43:51 2014]]
[nm48][[xxx Sep 16 14:44:27 2014]]
[nm49][[xxx Sep 16 14:44:55 2014]]
[nm50][[xxx Sep 16 14:45:05 2014]]
[nm51][[xxx Sep 16 14:45:51 2014]]
[nm52][[xxx Sep 16 14:46:20 2014]]
[nm53][[xxx Sep 16 14:46:34 2014]]
[nm54][[xxx Sep 16 14:47:35 2014]]
[nm55][[xxx Sep 16 14:48:05 2014]]
[nm56][[xxx Sep 16 14:49:21 2014]]
[nm57][[xxx Sep 16 14:49:30 2014]]
[nm58][[xxx Sep 16 14:51:17 2014]]
[nm59][[xxx Sep 16 14:52:11 2014]]
[nm60][[xxx Sep 16 14:52:29 2014]]
[nm61][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:18 2014]]
[nm62][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:21 2014]]
[nm63][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:23 2014]]
[nm64][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:29 2014]]
[nm65][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:33 2014]]
[nm66][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:37 2014]]
[nm67][[xxx Sep 16 14:54:41 2014]]
[nm68][[xxx Sep 16 14:55:49 2014]]
[nm69][[xxx Sep 16 14:55:57 2014]]
[nm70][[xxx Sep 16 14:56:15 2014]]
[nm71][[xxx Sep 16 14:56:48 2014]]
[nm72][[xxx Sep 16 14:57:10 2014]]
[nm73][[xxx Sep 16 14:57:15 2014]]
[nm74][[xxx Sep 16 14:57:15 2014]]
[nm75][[xxx Sep 16 14:57:38 2014]]
[nm76][[xxx Sep 16 14:57:59 2014]]
[nm77][[xxx Sep 16 14:58:39 2014]]
[nm78][[xxx Sep 16 15:00:27 2014]]
[nm79][[xxx Sep 16 15:02:48 2014]]
[nm80][[xxx Sep 16 15:03:53 2014]]
[nm81][[xxx Sep 16 15:04:06 2014]]
[nm82][[xxx Sep 16 15:04:06 2014]]
[nm83][[xxx Sep 16 15:06:10 2014]]
[nm84][[xxx Sep 16 15:07:25 2014]]
[nm85][[xxx Sep 16 15:07:37 2014]]
[nm86][[xxx Sep 16 15:08:33 2014]]
[nm87][[xxx Sep 16 15:10:03 2014]]
[nm88][[xxx Sep 16 15:10:41 2014]]
[nm89][[xxx Sep 16 15:12:13 2014]]
[nm90][[xxx Sep 16 15:12:34 2014]]
[nm91][[xxx Sep 16 15:12:41 2014]]
[nm92][[xxx Sep 16 15:15:16 2014]]
[nm93][[xxx Sep 16 15:15:30 2014]]
[nm94][[xxx Sep 16 15:16:04 2014]]
[nm95][[xxx Sep 16 15:16:16 2014]]
[nm96][[xxx Sep 16 15:16:34 2014]]
[nm97][[xxx Sep 16 15:16:22 2014]]
[nm98][[xxx Sep 16 15:18:36 2014]]
[nm99][[xxx Sep 16 15:18:51 2014]]
[nm100][[xxx Sep 16 15:19:22 2014]]
[nm101][[xxx Sep 16 15:19:32 2014]]
[nm102][[xxx Sep 16 15:20:56 2014]]
[nm103][[xxx Sep 16 15:21:07 2014]]
[nm104][[xxx Sep 16 15:21:31 2014]]
[nm105][[xxx Sep 16 15:22:52 2014]]
[nm106][[xxx Sep 16 15:24:15 2014]]
[nm107][[xxx Sep 16 15:24:43 2014]]
[nm108][[xxx Sep 16 15:25:26 2014]]
[nm109][[xxx Sep 16 15:26:01 2014]]
[nm110][[xxx Sep 16 15:27:15 2014]]
[nm111][[xxx Sep 16 15:27:45 2014]]
[nm112][[xxx Sep 16 15:28:44 2014]]
[nm113][[xxx Sep 16 15:29:34 2014]]
[nm114][[xxx Sep 16 15:31:38 2014]]
[nm115][[xxx Sep 16 15:31:59 2014]]
[nm116][[xxx Sep 16 15:32:37 2014]]
[nm117][[xxx Sep 16 15:34:19 2014]]
[nm118][[xxx Sep 16 15:35:00 2014]]
[nm119][[xxx Sep 16 15:35:12 2014]]
[nm120][[xxx Sep 16 15:36:06 2014]]
[nm121][[xxx Sep 16 15:36:12 2014]]
[nm122][[xxx Sep 16 15:39:05 2014]]
[nm123][[xxx Sep 16 15:39:26 2014]]
[nm124][[xxx Sep 16 15:41:10 2014]]
[nm125][[xxx Sep 16 15:41:43 2014]]
[nm126][[xxx Sep 16 15:42:35 2014]]
[nm127][[xxx Sep 16 15:42:55 2014]]
[nm128][[xxx Sep 16 15:44:39 2014]]
[nm129][[xxx Sep 16 15:45:01 2014]]
[nm130][[xxx Sep 16 15:45:18 2014]]
[nm131][[xxx Sep 16 15:47:11 2014]]
[nm132][[xxx Sep 16 15:48:39 2014]]
[nm133][[xxx Sep 16 15:48:52 2014]]
[nm134][[xxx Sep 16 15:49:21 2014]]
[nm135][[xxx Sep 16 15:49:37 2014]]
[nm136][[xxx Sep 16 15:50:41 2014]]
[nm137][[xxx Sep 16 15:51:18 2014]]
[nm138][[xxx Sep 16 15:52:58 2014]]
[nm139][[xxx Sep 16 15:52:48 2014]]
[nm140][[xxx Sep 16 15:53:40 2014]]
[nm141][[xxx Sep 16 15:54:47 2014]]
[nm142][[xxx Sep 16 15:54:50 2014]]
[nm143][[xxx Sep 16 15:55:58 2014]]
[nm144][[xxx Sep 16 15:56:26 2014]]
[nm145][[xxx Sep 16 15:57:13 2014]]
[nm146][[xxx Sep 16 15:57:30 2014]]
[nm147][[xxx Sep 16 15:57:33 2014]]
[nm148][[xxx Sep 16 15:59:40 2014]]
[nm149][[xxx Sep 16 15:59:56 2014]]
[nm150][[xxx Sep 16 16:00:06 2014]]
[nm151][[xxx Sep 16 16:00:31 2014]]
[nm152][[xxx Sep 16 16:00:46 2014]]
[nm153][[xxx Sep 16 16:00:52 2014]]
[nm154][[xxx Sep 16 16:01:07 2014]]
[nm155][[xxx Sep 16 16:02:25 2014]]
[nm156][[xxx Sep 16 16:02:54 2014]]
[nm157][[xxx Sep 16 16:02:57 2014]]
[nm158][[xxx Sep 16 16:03:00 2014]]
[nm159][[xxx Sep 16 16:03:01 2014]]
[nm160][[xxx Sep 16 16:03:06 2014]]
[nm161][[xxx Sep 16 16:03:07 2014]]
[nm162][[xxx Sep 16 16:04:20 2014]]
[nm163][[xxx Sep 16 16:05:23 2014]]
[nm164][[xxx Sep 16 16:07:00 2014]]
[nm165][[xxx Sep 16 16:07:17 2014]]
[nm166][[xxx Sep 16 16:07:41 2014]]
[nm167][[xxx Sep 16 16:07:54 2014]]
[nm168][[xxx Sep 16 16:08:04 2014]]
[nm169][[xxx Sep 16 16:08:11 2014]]
[nm170][[xxx Sep 16 16:08:51 2014]]
[nm171][[xxx Sep 16 16:10:04 2014]]
[nm172][[xxx Sep 16 16:10:36 2014]]
[nm173][[xxx Sep 16 16:11:43 2014]]
[nm174][[xxx Sep 16 16:13:49 2014]]
[nm175][[xxx Sep 16 16:14:34 2014]]
[nm176][[xxx Sep 16 16:15:55 2014]]
[nm177][[xxx Sep 16 16:16:29 2014]]
[nm178][[xxx Sep 16 16:16:49 2014]]
[nm179][[xxx Sep 16 16:18:54 2014]]
[nm180][[xxx Sep 16 16:19:21 2014]]
[nm181][[xxx Sep 16 16:19:49 2014]]
[nm182][[xxx Sep 16 16:20:47 2014]]
[nm183][[xxx Sep 16 16:21:08 2014]]
[nm184][[xxx Sep 16 16:22:19 2014]]
[nm185][[xxx Sep 16 16:22:40 2014]]
[nm186][[xxx Sep 16 16:22:51 2014]]
[nm187][[xxx Sep 16 16:23:00 2014]]
[nm188][[xxx Sep 16 16:24:16 2014]]
[nm189][[xxx Sep 16 16:24:20 2014]]
[nm190][[xxx Sep 16 16:26:30 2014]]
[nm191][[xxx Sep 16 16:27:18 2014]]
[nm192][[xxx Sep 16 16:28:23 2014]]
[nm193][[xxx Sep 16 16:28:25 2014]]
[nm194][[xxx Sep 16 16:29:11 2014]]
[nm195][[xxx Sep 16 16:28:52 2014]]
[nm196][[xxx Sep 16 16:29:48 2014]]
[rm197]See uniformity guide!
[nm198][[xxx Sep 16 16:32:38 2014]]
[nm199][[xxx Sep 16 16:32:50 2014]]
[nm200][[xxx Sep 16 16:32:57 2014]]
[nm201][[xxx Sep 16 16:33:45 2014]]
[nm202][[xxx Sep 16 16:33:56 2014]]
[nm203][[xxx Sep 16 16:38:58 2014]]
[nm204][[xxx Sep 16 16:41:28 2014]]
[nm205][[xxx Sep 16 16:42:29 2014]]
[nm206][[xxx Sep 16 16:43:48 2014]]
[nm207][[xxx Sep 16 16:43:54 2014]]
[nm208][[xxx Sep 16 16:48:14 2014]]
[nm209][[xxx Sep 16 16:48:21 2014]]
[nm210][[xxx Sep 16 16:48:14 2014]]
[nm211][[xxx Sep 16 16:48:22 2014]]
[nm212][[xxx Sep 16 16:49:06 2014]]
[nm213][[xxx Sep 16 16:50:49 2014]]
[nm214][[xxx Sep 16 16:51:01 2014]]
[nm215][[xxx Sep 16 16:51:31 2014]]
[nm216][[xxx Sep 16 16:53:03 2014]]
[nm217][[xxx Sep 16 16:53:14 2014]]
[nm218][[xxx Sep 16 16:53:32 2014]]
[nm219][[xxx Sep 16 16:58:42 2014]]
[nm220][[xxx Sep 16 16:58:45 2014]]
[nm221][[xxx Sep 16 16:59:54 2014]]
[nm222][[xxx Sep 16 17:00:36 2014]]
[nm223][[xxx Sep 16 17:03:55 2014]]
[nm224][[xxx Sep 16 17:04:32 2014]]
[nm225][[xxx Sep 16 17:06:03 2014]]
[nm226][[xxx Sep 16 17:08:02 2014]]
[nm227][[xxx Sep 16 17:08:06 2014]]
[nm228][[xxx Sep 16 17:10:25 2014]]
[nm229][[xxx Sep 16 17:11:35 2014]]
[nm230][[xxx Sep 16 17:12:40 2014]]
[nm231][[xxx Sep 16 17:12:45 2014]]
[nm232][[xxx Sep 16 17:12:49 2014]]
[nm233][[xxx Sep 16 17:13:20 2014]]
[nm234][[xxx Sep 16 17:13:24 2014]]
[nm235][[xxx Sep 16 17:17:12 2014]]
[nm236][[xxx Sep 16 17:20:07 2014]]
[nm237][[xxx Sep 16 17:20:09 2014]]
[nm238][[xxx Sep 16 17:22:39 2014]]
[nm239][[xxx Sep 16 17:23:53 2014]]
[nm240][[xxx Sep 16 17:24:02 2014]]
[nm241][[xxx Sep 16 17:24:42 2014]]
[nm242][[xxx Sep 16 17:26:06 2014]]
[nm243][[xxx Sep 16 17:28:19 2014]]
[nm244][[xxx Sep 16 17:29:13 2014]]
[nm245][[xxx Sep 16 17:30:57 2014]]
[nm246][[xxx Sep 16 17:31:00 2014]]
[nm247][[xxx Sep 16 17:33:36 2014]]
[nm248][[xxx Sep 16 17:34:01 2014]]
[nm249][[xxx Sep 16 17:34:03 2014]]
[nm250][[xxx Sep 16 17:34:37 2014]]
[nm251][[xxx Sep 16 17:34:48 2014]]
[nm252][[xxx Sep 16 17:36:22 2014]]
[nm253][[xxx Sep 16 17:36:27 2014]]
[nm254][[xxx Sep 16 17:36:27 2014]]
[nm255][[xxx Sep 16 17:37:18 2014]]
[nm256][[xxx Sep 16 17:37:22 2014]]
[nm257][[xxx Sep 16 17:37:57 2014]]
[nm258][[xxx Sep 16 17:39:54 2014]]
[nm259][[xxx Sep 16 17:40:39 2014]]
[nm260][[xxx Sep 16 17:41:32 2014]]
[nm261][[xxx Sep 16 17:42:01 2014]]
[nm262][[xxx Sep 16 17:43:17 2014]]
[nm263][[xxx Sep 16 17:45:29 2014]]
[nm264][[xxx Sep 16 17:46:05 2014]]
[nm265][[xxx Sep 16 17:46:14 2014]]
[nm266][[xxx Sep 16 17:46:14 2014]]
[nm267][[xxx Sep 16 17:46:14 2014]]
[nm268][[xxx Sep 16 17:46:14 2014]]
[nm269][[xxx Sep 16 17:48:28 2014]]
[nm270][[xxx Sep 16 17:48:30 2014]]
[nm271][[xxx Sep 16 17:48:37 2014]]
[nm272][[xxx Sep 16 17:48:39 2014]]
[nm273][[xxx Sep 16 17:46:14 2014]]
[nm274][[xxx Sep 16 17:48:46 2014]]
[nm275][[xxx Sep 16 17:48:49 2014]]
[nm276][[xxx Sep 16 17:50:00 2014]]
[nm277][[xxx Sep 16 17:50:22 2014]]
[nm278][[xxx Sep 16 17:52:20 2014]]
[nm279][[xxx Sep 16 17:52:35 2014]]
[nm280][[xxx Sep 16 17:54:14 2014]]
[nm281][[xxx Sep 16 17:54:55 2014]]
[nm282][[xxx Sep 16 17:56:16 2014]]
[nm283][[xxx Sep 16 17:56:16 2014]]
[nm284][[xxx Sep 16 17:58:16 2014]]
[nm285][[xxx Sep 16 17:59:35 2014]]
[nm286][[xxx Sep 16 17:59:38 2014]]
[nm287][[xxx Sep 16 18:01:48 2014]]
[nm288][[xxx Sep 16 18:02:30 2014]]
[nm289][[xxx Sep 16 18:02:47 2014]]
[nm290][[xxx Sep 16 18:05:17 2014]]
[nm291][[xxx Sep 16 18:06:17 2014]]
[nm292][[xxx Sep 16 18:06:33 2014]]
[nm293][[xxx Sep 16 18:06:51 2014]]
[nm294][[xxx Sep 16 18:09:10 2014]]
[nm295][[xxx Sep 16 18:09:22 2014]]
[nm296][[xxx Sep 16 18:11:00 2014]]
[nm297][[xxx Sep 16 18:11:20 2014]]
[nm298][[xxx Sep 16 18:11:40 2014]]
[nm299][[xxx Sep 16 18:12:13 2014]]
[nm300][[xxx Sep 16 18:12:18 2014]]
[nm301][[xxx Sep 16 18:14:25 2014]]
[nm302][[xxx Sep 16 18:15:01 2014]]
[nm303][[xxx Sep 16 18:15:07 2014]]
[nm304][[xxx Sep 16 18:15:41 2014]]
[nm305][[xxx Sep 16 18:17:21 2014]]
[nm306][[xxx Sep 16 18:19:18 2014]]
[nm307][[xxx Sep 16 18:21:05 2014]]
[nm308][[xxx Sep 16 18:22:29 2014]]
[nm309][[xxx Sep 16 18:24:31 2014]]
[nm310][[xxx Sep 16 18:24:34 2014]]
[nm311][[xxx Sep 16 18:25:17 2014]]
[nm312][[xxx Sep 16 18:25:20 2014]]
[nm313][[xxx Sep 16 18:28:02 2014]]
[nm314][[xxx Sep 16 18:28:46 2014]]
[nm315][[xxx Sep 16 18:30:12 2014]]
[tz316]Take note of this, it seems repeated.
[nm317][[xxx Sep 16 18:42:05 2014]]
[nm318][[xxx Sep 16 18:42:51 2014]]
[nm319][[xxx Sep 16 18:45:29 2014]]
[nm320][[xxx Sep 16 18:45:38 2014]]
[nm321][[xxx Sep 16 18:57:25 2014]]
[nm322][[xxx Sep 16 18:58:05 2014]]
[nm323][[xxx Sep 16 18:58:11 2014]]
[nm324][[xxx Sep 16 18:58:30 2014]]
[nm325][[xxx Sep 16 18:58:47 2014]]
[nm326][[xxx Sep 16 18:59:48 2014]]
[nm327][[xxx Sep 16 18:59:50 2014]]
[nm328][[xxx Sep 16 19:00:58 2014]]
[nm329][[xxx Sep 16 19:01:39 2014]]
[nm330][[xxx Sep 16 19:02:58 2014]]
[nm331][[xxx Sep 16 19:03:00 2014]]
[nm332][[xxx Sep 16 19:07:44 2014]]
[nm333][[xxx Sep 16 19:08:26 2014]]
[nm334][[xxx Sep 16 19:09:41 2014]]
[nm335][[xxx Sep 16 19:11:14 2014]]
[tz336]We don’t start a sentence with an acronym, let along paragraph
[nm337][[xxx Sep 16 19:13:53 2014]]
[nm338][[xxx Sep 16 19:14:10 2014]]
[nm339][[xxx Sep 16 19:20:04 2014]]
[nm340][[xxx Sep 16 19:20:53 2014]]
[nm341][[xxx Sep 16 19:22:22 2014]]
[nm342][[xxx Sep 16 19:22:27 2014]]
[nm343][[xxx Sep 16 19:23:10 2014]]
[nm344][[xxx Sep 16 19:24:19 2014]]
[nm345][[xxx Sep 16 19:24:23 2014]]
[rm346]Why use italics!
[rm347]Why keep on using italics?
[nm348][[xxx Sep 16 19:26:43 2014]]
[nm349][[xxx Sep 16 19:27:23 2014]]
[nm350][[xxx Sep 16 19:29:16 2014]]
[nm351][[xxx Sep 16 19:29:16 2014]]
[rm352]We do not abbreviate
[nm353][[xxx Sep 16 19:29:48 2014]]
[rm354]We do not abbreviate departments!
[rm355]We do not abbreviate departments!
[nm356][[xxx Sep 16 19:30:50 2014]]
[rm357]We do not abbreviate departments!
[nm358][[xxx Sep 16 19:31:20 2014]]
[rm359]We do not abbreviate
[nm360][[xxx Sep 16 19:32:20 2014]]
[nm361][[xxx Sep 16 19:33:26 2014]]
[rm362]We do not abbreviate
[nm363][[xxx Sep 16 19:34:54 2014]]
[nm364][[xxx Sep 16 19:35:30 2014]]
[nm365][[xxx Sep 16 19:40:02 2014]]
[nm366][[xxx Sep 16 19:40:02 2014]]
[nm367][[xxx Sep 16 19:40:04 2014]]
[nm368][[xxx Sep 16 19:41:58 2014]]
[nm369][[xxx Sep 16 19:43:26 2014]]
[nm370][[xxx Sep 16 19:43:39 2014]]
[nm371][[xxx Sep 16 19:43:42 2014]]
[nm372][[xxx Sep 16 19:46:27 2014]]
[nm373][[xxx Sep 16 19:46:31 2014]]
[nm374][[xxx Sep 16 19:46:44 2014]]
[nm375][[xxx Sep 16 19:46:48 2014]]
[nm376][[xxx Sep 16 19:48:09 2014]]
[nm377][[xxx Sep 16 19:48:33 2014]]
[nm378][[xxx Sep 16 19:48:33 2014]]
[nm379][[xxx Sep 16 19:49:39 2014]]
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