Hansard: NA: Consideration of Rental Housing Amendment Bill; Consideration of request for approval of Acceptance of the DOHA Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change; Draft Resolution (The Leader of the Opposition): Motion of no confidence in the Speaker of the National Assembly
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 16 Sep 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 16 September 2014 Take: 1
TUESDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 14:07.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
Mrs J D KILIAN
START OF DAY
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NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates strengthening South Africa’s postgraduate training in research and innovation, as a means of improving the country’s global competitiveness.
Mr N SINGH
Mrs J D KILIAN
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Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House—
- debates the report released yesterday by groundWork, an NGO that works for environmental justice, and the Centre for Environmental Rights, in which it was reported that the government had allowed the Air Quality Management System to deteriorate to the point of collapse in South Africa; and
- further discusses immediate measures that must be put in place to prevent such a catastrophe.
Ms D CARTER
Mr N SINGH
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Ms D CARTER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the need for electoral reform to ensure that elected representatives are more accountable, responsible and responsive to the electorate.
Prof B BOZZOLI
Ms D CARTER
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Prof B BOZZOLI: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That this House debates the lack of funds in the National Student Financial Aid Scheme and the impact that this has on people’s right to quality higher education.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
Prof B BOZZOLI
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Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the real reasons for, and reflects on the damage being done to South Africa’s international image by, the refusal or failure to grant the Dalai Lama a visa yet again.
Mrs J V BASSON
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
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Mrs J V BASSON: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates making early childhood development a priority, by ensuring that services offered are flexible and responsive to the needs of children, families and communities. [Applause.]
Ms N V NQWENISO
Mrs J V BASSON
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Ms N V NQWENISO: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the state of South Africa’s household food security.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I picked up a comment from a member of the House and I would like to use this opportunity to request those who are our guests in the gallery, and who are very welcome to observe the proceedings, please to desist from participation in any way. That includes the fact that there must be no clapping and no comment. There should be nothing of that nature, and the procedures should be left to the floor. We must be able to conduct ourselves properly.
Hon members, are there any other motions? I see the hon member of the NFP.
Prof N M KHUBISA
The SPEAKER
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Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House deliberates on the conditions of hostels in our country.
Ms A N D QIKANI
Prof N M KHUBISA
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Ms A N D QIKANI: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates promoting the access of rural women to vital resources such as safe and affordable energy, water and land. [Applause.]
Mr B D JOSEPH
Ms A N D QIKANI
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Mr B D JOSEPH: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the conditions of fishing communities in the coastal areas of our country and, more specifically, around the area of St Helena Bay, where the fishing quotas are going to one portion of the community that is closely linked to the ruling party.
Ms N W A MICHAEL
Mr B D JOSEPH
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Ms N W A MICHAEL: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That this House debates Eskom’s R225 billion shortfall, and the impact that the countless government bailouts have on our economy. [Applause.]
Mr M S MABIKA
Ms N W A MICHAEL
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Mr M S MABIKA: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House—
- deliberates on the issue of strengthening the security of South African borders;
- notes that our national borders are currently very porous and not protected at all from people who bring stolen and unauthorised goods into the country;
- further notes that it was brought to the attention of the NFP that four SA Police Service members were arrested by the Mozambican police near Ndumo in Jozini last week, whilst they were trying to arrest a man who was crossing with unauthorised goods;
- also notes that the suspect called the Mozambican police to assist him and the Mozambican police responded by crossing the border into South Africa and arresting the SAPS members, dispossessing them of their firearms. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member! [Laughter.] I think you should wait for statements.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M S MABIKA: Yebo, kodwa kunjalo nje.
USOMLOMO: Uzosho phela ngethuba lezitatimende.
Mr M A MNCWANGO
The SPEAKER
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English:
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the deplorable and renewed attacks on the integrity and the office of the Public Protector, this time allegedly made at the wedding of Mr Khulubuse Zuma, and the threat such utterances pose to our Chapter 9 institutions and our democracy at large. [Applause.]
Dr Z LUYENGE
Mr M A MNCWANGO
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Dr Z LUYENGE: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates encouraging a culture of individual savings for risks associated with loss of income due to unemployment, old age and illness by providing appropriate frameworks and incentives. [Applause.]
Ms E N LOUW
Dr Z LUYENGE
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Ms E N LOUW: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF, a government in waiting:
That the House debates the exclusion of the poor, mainly black, students from institutions of higher learning for financial reasons. [Applause.]
Mr L W GREYLING
Ms E N LOUW
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Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That this House debates the government’s proposed nuclear programme, its projected impact on future electricity prices and the mechanisms through which it will be financed. [Applause.]
Prof C T MSIMANG
Mr L W GREYLING
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Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the continuing instances of farm attacks and murders, where we have this year alone seen 91 attacks and 42 murders on farms around South Africa, and the additional measures needed to be put in place in order to quell such violence which is being perpetrated against our farming communities.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA
Prof C T MSIMANG
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Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the revolutionary EFF to move a draft resolution:
That the House—
- notes that since 1652, black people have been systematically dispossessed of their land;
- further notes that the notorious 1913 Land Act was merely a formalisation of the dispossession that had been happening since the arrival of the white settlers;
- acknowledges that by 1986 the research of the Surplus People Project noted that about five million black people had been dispossessed of their land ... [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Excuse me, hon Mngxitama. Can you just pause and take your seat in the mean time? Yes, hon Waters. Is that a point of order?
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker, we are currently taking notices of motion and not motions without notice.
The SPEAKER: This is notices of motion.
Mr M WATERS: Notices of motion, yes. The hon member, I believe, is reading out a motion without notice. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: No, no. Please finish off, hon Mngxitama.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Thank you, hon Speaker. I continue:
(3) acknowledges that the research of the Surplus People Project noted that about 5 million black people had been dispossessed of their land as a result of apartheid laws and policies, such as the betterment schemes and black spots removal, and through evictions on farms. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are running into the danger of reading a statement now. [Interjections.]
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: I again continue:
- calls for an ad hoc committee to inquire into the amendment of section 25 of the Constitution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: This is a draft resolution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Right now we are taking notices of motion.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Okay.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Mngxitama.
Mr M S MBATHA
The SPEAKER
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Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the constitutional location of the office of the Public Protector and its decisions, as there appears to be confusion about its powers.
Mr M M TSHISHONGA
Mr M S MBATHA
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Mr M M TSHISHONGA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Agang:
That the House debates the effectiveness of the legislation relating to the prevention of fraud and corruption, for example the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, Act 12 of 2004 and the Protected Disclosures Act, Act 26 of 2000.
The SPEAKER: I do not want any side of the House to complain.
Mr S A TLEANE
The SPEAKER
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Mr S A TLEANE: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the potential for economic development in informal settlements and how it would contribute to economic growth. [Applause.]
Ms D CARTER
Mr S A TLEANE
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Ms D CARTER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the worsening national debt to GDP ratio, as well as the budget deficit to GDP ratio, as these are going to make borrowing expensive for the state, financial institutions and ordinary South Africans. [Applause.]
Mr S C MNCWABE
Ms D CARTER
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IsiZulu:
Mnu S C MNCWABE: Somlomo, egameni le-NFP ngiphakamisa ukuthi, uma ngabe leNdlu isihlala ngokulandelayo:
Ikhulume kabanzi ngenkohlakalo, ukuzicebisa nokwenzelelana ekwabiweni kwezindlu zomxhaso kohulumeni basekhaya.
Ngiyabonga.
Mr M L SHELEMBE
Mr S C MNCWABE
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Mr M L SHELEMBE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House—
- debates the issue of the exorbitant amounts of money being spent by provincial MECs on the promotion of their persons and their offices in the print media, associated with wasteful expenditure on sod-turning ceremonies for inter alia the hiring of marquee tents, caterers, flowers, decorations and numerous other expenses to launch projects which then do not progress; and
- notes that actions speak louder than words and that such unnecessary expenditure could be utilised far more effectively in actual service delivery.
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Mr M L SHELEMBE
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STUDENT PROTEST AT TSHWANE UNIVERSITY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes the end of the student protest at Tshwane University of Technology, which forced management to suspend classes;
- acknowledges that the grievances of the student body are, amongst others, a lack of funding from the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, which remains inadequate to fund all students who qualify; and
- further notes that public universities are public spaces, and the unilateral decision by the TUT management to suspend classes and threaten students with eviction remains outside principle of universal access to free and quality education.
Agreed to.
Ms C N MAJEKE
Mr K Z MORAPELA
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DEEPEST CONDOLENCES TO FAMILY OF JOSLYNN OLIPHANT
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that on Saturday, 13 September 2014, a toddler in Uitenhage died after falling into an uncovered storm-water drain;
- further notes that the residents in the community are reported to have frequently complained to the municipality that the storm-water drain was a safety hazard, until the 17-month-old Joslynn Olifant drowned in it;
- extends its deepest condolences to Joslynn Olifant’s family; and
- calls on the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to investigate the circumstances leading to the untimely death of the toddler, and to ensure that appropriate remedial action is taken.
Agreed to.
Mr T E MULAUDZI
Ms C N MAJEKE
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CONDOLENCES TO FAMILIES WHO LOST LOVED ONES IN LAGOS BUILDING COLLAPSE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T E MULAUDZI: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes the fact that a building in Lagos, Nigeria, collapsed and left at least 17 people dead and 124 who were rescued by the Nigerian National Emergency Management Agency;
- further notes that no South Africans are reported to have been affected;
- extends condolences to the families that lost their loved ones; and
- wishes the rescued people a speedy recovery.
Agreed to.
Mr J VOS
Mr T E MULAUDZI
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BLUE TRAIN NAMED AFRICA’S LEADING LUXURY TRAIN 2014
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J VOS: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the famous Blue Train, which travels between Cape Town and Pretoria, has once again been named Africa’s Leading Luxury Train at the 2014 World Travel Awards, the third year in a row;
- also notes that it contributes greatly to our tourism sector;
- acknowledges that tourism has been identified in the National Development Plan as a key job driver for our economy, as tourism supports one in every 12 jobs in South Africa;
- further acknowledges the hard work and commitment to excellence of the Blue Train operators and staff; and
- congratulates the Blue Train on flying our flag high.
Agreed to.
Mr N SINGH
Mr J VOS
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ATTEMPTED SMUGGLING OF BLACK RHINO HORN INTO SINGAPORE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- commends the customs officials of the Changi Airport in Singapore who recently thwarted the attempted smuggling of the horns of eight black rhino into Singapore by a Vietnamese National;
- notes that the horns weighed in total 22 kg and held a street value of approximately R15 million;
- further notes that only six days before the seizure at Changi Airport, one of those horns was on a living rhino in the Kruger National Park;
- acknowledges that the great contribution of forensic science in the form of rhino DNA profiling is assisting our law enforcement agencies in tracking the movements of poachers and syndicates; and
- encourages greater international co-operation in exposing and bringing the syndicates that traffic in rhino horn to justice.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Mr N SINGH
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House debates, with shock and dismay, the “Not guilty of murder” verdict in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial, after an outcry from millions of South Africans and people worldwide, calling for the state to appeal against this “Not guilty” verdict.
Ms M T KUBAYI: A point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Kubayi.
Ms M T KUBAYI: Speaker, the motion of which the hon member Shaik Emam has given notice is out of order. The House cannot reflect on the outcomes of courts. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, are you sure you circulated that motion?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member Singh.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, may I address you? I think you omitted to ask if there were any objections to the motion that I put to the House.
The SPEAKER: What was your motion about, hon member, just to jog my memory?
Mr N SINGH: It was about the seizure of rhino horns.
The SPEAKER: It was about the seizure of rhino horns, a very important subject, one to which I am quite sure there is no objection. Are there any objections? The House has no objection.
Agreed to.
The SPEAKER: In regard to the motion of the hon member Mr Shaik Emam, the one that he gave notice of a few minutes ago, that falls away.
Mr M L W FILTANE
The SPEAKER
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WARD COUNCILLOR GIDEON NOREXE – ASSAULT AND DAMAGE TO PROPERTY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the house—
- notes that on the evening of Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Buffalo City Ward Councillor Gideon Norexe’s house was allegedly burnt to ashes by angry residents;
- further notes that the incident took place just two weeks after an alleged assault on Mr Norexe by two residents;
- acknowledges the right of citizens to demand speedy service delivery, but without there being damage to human life and property; and
- condemns violence, damage to property and assault in the name of service delivery protests.
Agreed to.
Mr B A RADEBE
Mr M L W FILTANE
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ACHIEVEMENTS OF ATHLETE KHOTSO MOKOENA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that on 14 September 2014 former Olympic long jump silver medallist Khotso Mokoena broke his own national triple jump record at the International Association of Athletics Federations, IAAF, Continental Cup;
- further notes that Mokoena spearheaded the South African contingent in Marrakech, despite settling for a second place behind Frenchman Benjamin Compaore, the European champion, who jumped 17,48 m;
- recalls that Mokoena, the Commonwealth and African champion, launched a 17,35 m attempt in the second round to break his own national record of 17,25 m set in April 2005;
- further recalls that the versatile 29-year-old jumper was relieved to have regained his best form in the hop, skip and jump, after focusing on the long jump discipline for the previous six seasons; and
- congratulates Mokoena on breaking the national record and winning a silver medal in Marrakech.
Agreed to.
Ms P T VAN DAMME
Mr B A RADEBE
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DEMOCRACY IN OUDTSHOORN
(Draft Resolution)
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the people of Oudtshoorn desperately need democracy restored in their town;
- also notes that since the DA rightfully won the majority of the seats in the municipality in August 2013, the ANC has refused to step down and has been clinging to power illegally;
- further notes that DA supporters came out in their hundreds in Oudtshoorn yesterday to send a clear message to the ANC to get out so that the DA can get to work;
- acknowledges that because of the ANC’s ...
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that motion has not been drafted for the purpose of ensuring that it gets support from the House.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: It has been, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No! The moment you pit two parties who belong to the House against each other, you are not talking to a matter that will unite the House in their support of it.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: You never know, members on the other side might want to support it.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, it’s not a motion that is going to be agreed to by the members of the House.
Mr M WATERS: No, Speaker. What was agreed in programming was that members could read out notices without motion and if any party had an objection, they could stand up and simply say that they did not support the motion. That’s what we agreed to in programming ... [Interjection.]
The SPEAKER: So, you can just provoke people.
Mr M WATERS: Well, that’s your opinion. Speaker, that’s what we agreed to. So, if the hon member can continue ...
The SPEAKER: All right. Hon member, finish off reading your motion.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Speaker, I continue:
(4) acknowledges that because of the ANC’s dirty tricks, the city council has not met once in more than a year, leading to major service delivery backlogs;
- reminds the ANC that the people of Oudtshoorn have spoken and have spoken very clearly, saying that they want a DA-run town because they are tired of corruption and empty promises; and
- calls on the ANC to stop the dirty tricks in Oudtshoorn and step aside so that the DA can govern Oudtshoorn.
[Applause.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, the ANC reject this motion with the contempt it deserves.
The SPEAKER: So, the motion is not agreed to.
Mr S C MNCWABE
The SPEAKER
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QUALIFICATIONS OF CHAIRPERSON OF SABC BOARD
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the Chairperson of the SABC Board has thus far failed to give an explanation with regard to the authenticity of her qualifications; and
- resolves to call upon the Minister of Communications to report to the House on the matter of the qualifications of the chairperson SABC Board, because it borders on questioning the credibility of the public broadcaster.
IsiZulu:
Sengiqedile, Somlomo.
Ms M T KUBAYI: Speaker, I have a point of order. While we acknowledge that there might have been an agreement at the Chief Whips’ Forum or Programming, there are certain matters that shouldn’t even be read out here, because they impact on the integrity of the House. The appointment and removal from office of the chairperson of the SABC Board depends on this House. For a member to stand up and read something like that while there is a process in place is just not assisting the House.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, I think that there is a process that ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you, hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Will you please do so?
The SPEAKER: Please, hon Shivambu, I am still talking to what was put before us by the other hon member. Will you let me finish what I am doing?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: All right. That’s fine.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, in the House we have repeatedly referred to issues relating to people who are not even in the House – they are not members of the House – but whose appointment depends on us in the House. That puts a responsibility on our shoulders in regard to how we deal with issues affecting them.
We cannot lambaste people whom we have appointed and whose removal actually depends on us without doing it with a properly formulated substantive motion. This is a matter we are repeating. You have also referred to a member of this House who is a Minister. Please, do it properly with a substantive motion. It’s not a matter of not doing it; it’s a matter of doing it properly according to the Rules we have agreed on.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Who is calling me?
Mrs J D KILIAN: I am on this side. Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Who is it? Okay.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order: We have noted what the hon Waters has said with regard to a decision by the Programme Committee. But, I would like to respectfully suggest that in terms of its functions and powers the Programme Committee cannot make such arrangements. Rule 190 spells out what its functions and powers are, and they cannot come to such a kind of agreement. That is the role of the Rules Committee. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like us ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to proceed with the programme of the House this afternoon! [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, what point are you rising on?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order: There is a process that we have agreed upon, as mandated by this House. There was a day when not all the motions could go through, and the House mandated us to agree on a process for this. We agreed on that process and we came back to the House to announce the process.
Those hon members that have stood up now to object to the process that we agreed on should have done so when the House was agreeing on the process in the Chief Whips’ Forum and in the Programme Committee. They should not question it now because it is convenient for them. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I don’t think it is going to help the House to continue in that particular fashion. Let us all ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... read the motions without notice and then, if people have objections, they have the right to object.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, the issue that I was raising does not change because of what you agreed on. The point is that you cannot reflect on a member of the House or a member of the public whose appointment to or removal from office depends on the House, without doing so by putting a substantive motion, a well motivated – properly motivated – motion. Hon Steenhuisen, I am surprised to see you standing.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am trying to assist. May I address you, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Please address me!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I think there are two separate issues. The statement you have just made is correct.
However, I just want to take issue with the point of order that was taken from that side of the House. There seems to be an element of schizophrenia here. We discussed this in the Chief Whips’ Forum and in the Programme Committee. No Rule change was required. What we are doing now is strictly in accordance with the Rules of Parliament. So, there was no requirement for it to go to the Rules Committee, or for the Programme Committee or anybody else to reinterpret this.
My understanding is – this was the agreement and the Chief Whip led the discussion – that what we are implying now is a strict interpretation of the Rules until such time as the Rules can be changed to reflect something different. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The hon Shivambu and the Steenhuisen are correct, but only in part and not in full, because ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the Chief Whip to finish his statement.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Our agreement does not break the Rules. We don’t have the power to break certain Rules by making an agreement. The agreement does not nullify the Rules simply because we said we must read it in full. If you break the Rules you must be stopped. It cannot be right for you to break a Rule simply because you are implementing our other agreement. It can’t be right! [Applause.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, I think that we are going back to a point we canvassed in the House. No one will question the integrity of the House if a motion is moved and a member who disagrees stands up to object. The motion has not been agreed to by the House. So, if we are going to say that a member can’t say this, while they can say that, we are going to be going back to the point where we object to almost everything here.
The Chief Whips’ Forum has discussed this matter. Let us be allowed to move motions. Then, if anyone disagrees with the motion they must stand up and object to it. After that we will proceed.
Let us not argue about whether it is correct to speak of the position of the chairperson of the SABC, or it is not correct to mention the name of the Public Protector. We mention the names and positions of people here all the time.
So, if we don’t want to reduce debate to the situation we have now, let us allow members to read the motions. Then the presiding officer must call for objections. Members may object and then we will move on.
Therefore, it is not a parliamentary position and it will not compromise the integrity of this House. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, let me just clarify the issue of motions without notice and how we deal with certain things on which we have been disagreeing. Let me remind the House that the matter is receiving attention and that this is a matter that will serve before the Rules Committee in the near future. I now wish us to move on from motions without notice. I suddenly see a forest of hands – a forest of hands. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI
The SPEAKER
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BLACK YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT ON THE RISE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the latest youth unemployment figure is 36,1% according to Statistics SA;
- further notes that, according to the same statistics, black youth are becoming less skilled, whilst skills amongst the white youth have increased gradually;
- acknowledges the report that skilled employment among white youth stands at 61,5% currently, up from 52% in 1994, that among Indians and Asians stands at 50,7%, that among Coloureds stands at 22,5%, and that among black youth stands at only 17,9%; and
- further acknowledges that despite legislation blacks still find it hard to find employment, let alone develop their skills.
Agreed to.
Mr L W GREYLING
Mr M Q NDLOZI
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CONCERN OVER PROPOSED NUCLEAR BUILD PROGRAMME
(Draft Resolution)
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that the National Development Plan brings up serious concerns about the government’s proposed nuclear build programme;
- calls for an in-depth investigation into the financial viability of nuclear energy;
- further notes that the updated Integrated Resource Plan also brings up serious concerns about the nuclear programme;
- further calls for a decision in this regard to be delayed while other energy options are explored;
- recognises that this programme will be the largest government procurement in South Africa’s history, with estimates ranging between R400 billion and R1 trillion;
- therefore calls on the government to handle this programme in a far more transparent manner and release to Parliament all the documents emanating from the Interministerial Committee on Energy Security, where this issue has been discussed; and
- finally calls on the government to outline how such a deal will be financed, what impact it will have on future electricity prices and what measures will be put in place to avoid any individuals or political parties’ benefiting improperly from such a procurement programme.
The SPEAKER: Are there any objections?
An HON MEMBER: Yes.
The SPEAKER: There is an objection. In the light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice therefore becomes a notice of motion.
Ms M MOONSAMY
Mr L W GREYLING
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ALARMING INCREASE IN VIOLENT SERVICE DELIVERY PROTESTS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M MOONSAMY: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes the alarming increase in violent protests across the country;
- also notes the violent service delivery protest currently under way in New Greytown Road in Pietermaritzburg;
- further notes that protesters are demanding to address Mbombela Local Municipality Mayor, Sibusiso Mathonsi, and as a public servant he aught to make himself available to the people;
- acknowledges that there is a violent protest here in the Western Cape in the informal settlement near Gaffley Street at Melrose Place in Grabouw;
- further acknowledges that a lack of basic services is a form of violence against our people and therefore our people must get the services they require; and
- finally acknowledges that the police must not be used to disorganise protesters or use live ammunition.
Agreed to.
Mr B A RADEBE
Ms M MOONSAMY
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UNISA HONOURS PROF BRIAN O’CONNELL
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House—
- notes that on Monday, 15 September 2014 the recently retired University of the Western Cape Rector and Vice-Chancellor, Prof Brian O’Connell, received an honorary degree of Doctor of Education from the University of South Africa at its main campus in Tshwane;
- further notes that the honorary degree was conferred in recognition and acknowledgement of his significant contribution to education and development in South Africa;
- recalls that Prof O’Connell is a leader and activist revered by South African communities and educators alike;
- further recalls that he has committed himself to improving the lives of the oppressed and disadvantaged people of South Africa;
- acknowledges that Prof O’Connell has had a direct practical impact on the lives of countless people and has been hailed as a role model for teachers and communities;
- congratulates Prof O’Connell on his award and wishes him well in his retirement.
Agreed to.
Mr B M MKONGI(ANC)
Mr B A RADEBE
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KEY ROLE OF SOUTH AFRICA IN BRICS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr B M MKONGI(ANC): Hon Speaker, the oldest liberation movement in Africa and the ruling party in the Republic of South Africa, the ANC, commends the good work done by our country in the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa group in supporting industrialisation and adding value.
This matter was also central to the discussion of the think tanks in the recent seminar hosted by the Centre for Conflict Resolution. We know that without peace and stability it is almost impossible to achieve development.
Our region, Africa, has so much potential and has made incredible progress notwithstanding its problems. Its prospects remain high on our economic development agenda.
Brics, five years after its establishment in 2009, continues to make progress on the agenda of intra-BRICS co-operation, both for the benefit of its members and to enhance the influence of emerging economies and developing countries.
South Africa can continue to play a critical, key role in the Brics group, where its role is recognised and its influence far greater than is warranted by the size of its GDP. [Applause.]
Mr M H HOOSEN (DA)
Mr B M MKONGI (ANC)
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POSTPONEMENTS OF DEADLINE FOR PRESENTATION OF UNABRIDGED BIRTH CERTIFICATES FOR CHILDREN
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M H HOOSEN (DA): Hon Speaker, the DA welcomes the postponement until June 2015 of the implementation of the requirement for children to present unabridged birth certificates upon entry to and exit from South Africa. Whilst this is a welcome relief, it is a clear indication that these regulations were not well thought through in the first place.
Here is the evidence. The hon Minister implemented these regulations in May this year and then, after a great public outcry, postponed the requirement until October this year. He has now postponed it again until June next year.
We remain unconvinced that the department will be ready to issue these certificates in a short space of time, even in June next year. At the meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs this morning the department conceded that they were still tasked with capturing millions of birth records electronically and they would not indicate when they would complete this task. So, it is likely that we will see yet another postponement in June next year.
This back and forth decision-making by the department will cause mass confusion to travellers, unless the department takes urgent steps to communicate the decisions as quickly as possible.
We also welcome the announcement of the task team to look into the impact of the new immigration regulations. This is what the DA asked for in the first place. Why such an impact assessment was not conducted then is just beyond all logic.
It is this kind of governance that will make us look like a banana republic in the international community. We are fast approaching the peak season for tourists wanting to travel to South Africa, and the DA urges the hon Minister to urgently postpone all requirements that will impact on tourism and job creation.
Ms H O MAXON
Mr M H HOOSEN (DA)
|
SHOCKING CONDITIONS AT MATIKWANE HOSPITAL IN MPUMALANGA
(Member’s Statement)
Ms H O MAXON (EFF): Hon Speaker, the conditions of many of our hospitals around the country are indeed appealing.
The water supply to Matikwane Hospital in Mpumalanga was cut off last Monday, 8 September 2014. Because of this decision, patients could not even obtain water to take their pills. The situation was so dire that patients resorted to relieving themselves on the hospital grounds because the toilets were not functioning – the toilets smelt terrible. This created a huge hygiene problem and health hazards for both the health workers in the hospital and the patients. The wards also smelt as patients with different diseases could not get assistance because of the lack of water.
People who had been operated on, those with TB, the elderly and the terminally ill were badly affected by the situation in the hospital. This situation could easily trigger infection in the patients and make their situation even worse.
This actually shows the conditions to which our people are being subjected – 20 years after attaining democracy! Nothing much has really changed in South Africa for the majority of our people. People are still struggling to get proper health care from the current government.
The poorest of the poor are the ones who are most affected by the lack of service delivery in the health sector. It is indeed regrettable that the current government continues to treat our people like animals. Even animals do not deserve such treatment. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
However, I would like to suggest that you look at your draft again because it is quite schizophrenic. You start by saying that the hospitals are “appealing” and then you go on to say something that is absolutely the opposite. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Appalling!
The SPEAKER: But the hon member did say they are “appealing”.
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, can I correct that? I want the correct version to be on record. The hospitals are “appalling”. [Applause.]
Ms N GINA (ANC)
Ms H O MAXON
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ANNUAL NATIONAL ASSESSMENTS FOR GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS ON 16-19 SEPTEMBER 2014
(Member’s Statement)
IsiZulu:
Nk N GINA (ANC): Somlomo, kusukela namhlanje ziyishumi nesithupha kuya mhla ziyishumi nesishiyagalolunye zonke izikole zaseNingizimu Afrika ezingaphansi kukahulumeni zibhala izivivinyo ngaphansi kohlelo lwaMinyaka Yonke lukaZwelonke lokuVivinya [Annual National Assessment]. Lolu hlelo luqalwe uhulumeni ukuze akwazi ukuthola ukuthi kukuphi lapho ezemfundo zinenkinga khona bese eqinisa lapho. Uhulumeni wenza lokhu ukubonisa ukuzibophezela kwakhe ekuthuthukiseni ezemfundo eNingizimu Afrika nokuthi imfundo ihlale isezingeni eliphezulu.
SiwuKhongolose sifisela bonke abantwana ababhalayo kulezi zivivinyo impumelelo. Sibonga kakhulu kothisha ngemisebenzi emihle abayenzile, sithi abaqhubeke benze le misebenzi emihle abayenzayo, bese bethatha le miphumela baqhubekele phambili nale misebenzi. Sikhuthaza imiphakathi nabazali ukuthi baqhubeke nokunika abantwana babo isisekelo ukuze imfundo iqhubeke. Sithi naleyo miphakathi esabonakalisa ukushoda ekulekeleleni nasekusekeleni abantwana kwezemfundo mayenze kangcono ngoba imfundo ibalulekile. Siyabonga kakhulu. [Ihlombe.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: These people here are clapping hands. They are clapping hands.
The SPEAKER: I suspect that ... [Interjections.] It is okay. Take your seat, hon Malema.
IsiXhosa:
Mhlawumbi ngela xesha bendithetha ekuqaleni bebengekafiki bonke abantu. Bendicelile ukuba iindwendwe zethu, mandichaze okokuqala ukuba zamkelekile, okwesibini, ...
English:
Ms E N LOUW: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: ...
The SPEAKER: Can I finish first?
IsiXhosa:
Zamkelekile iindwendwe zethu kodwa imigaqo nemithetho yenkqubo yalapha ePalamente ayivumi ukuba iindwendwe zethu ziqhwabe. Ndizama ukuyicacisa loo nto ukuze niyazi ngoba abanye besele ndibaxelele kodwa ke beningekapheleli. Musani ukuqhwaba kwaye singakhwazi. Maze kungabi ngathi nathi size kongezelela kwizinto kwizinto ezenzeka apha. Kodwa iindwendwe zona zamkelekile.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Speaker! Order, hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: You will not ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Kukhona ongikhombayo laphaya, phezulu!
English:
The SPEAKER: You will not ... [Interjections.] Mama, you will not do that! When I am speaking you sit, and you listen and wait! [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Hlala phantsi, mama. Niyacelwa zindwendwe ukuba nihlale nje nizole nina njengabantu abasindwendweleyo, esinamkelayo. Ndiyanicela.
Mr N SINGH (IFP)
The SPEAKER
|
CONSEQUENCES OF BAILOUT PLAN EXTENDED TO ESKOM
(Member’s Statement)
Mr N SINGH (IFP): Hon Speaker, I thought they were going to clap for me, but you stopped that! [Laughter.]
The bailout plan extended to Eskom by Cabinet, which also includes support for tariff increases, is troubling because it does not seem to have taken a holistic view of the situation.
The decision to support increased tariffs will have a continual devastating impact on the commercial, industrial and household sectors, as well as on the poor people of this country, as they cannot afford rising electricity prices.
Many statements of reassurance to consumers and businesses will most likely emanate from government, claiming that electricity prices will not increase. However, in one form or another the consumer feels the brunt of such bailouts and tariff increases, especially when the domino effect caused by this bailout raises food and transport costs.
Government needs to clarify whether the events that landed Eskom in this predicament in the first place were taken into account. Cable theft, illegal connections, delays in commissioning the Medupi Power Station, and the more than R10 billion owed to Eskom by municipalities have severely hampered the power utility’s ability to maintain revenue streams. Remedial steps need to be taken and municipalities, especially, held to account, because no amount of free basic electricity allocation will shield the poor from higher tariff hikes.
Eskom’s inability to manage its books will no doubt lead to the same problem again in the next budget cycle, thus turning it into another version of SAA.
Ms M T KUBAYI (ANC)
Mr N SINGH (IFP)
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COMMUNITY NEWSPAPER IN MABOPANE
(Member’s Statement)
Sepedi:
Moh T KUBAYI (ANC): Mohl Sepikara, mokgatlo wa ANC o lebogiša Mna Frans Malatsi wa go tšwa Mabopane ge a kgonne go hloma kuranta ya tikologo ye e bitšwago Mabopane Sun. Mabopane Sun e phatlalatša dikuranta tše 20 000 go baagi ba Mabopane.
Mabopane Sun e thekgwa ke matlotlo a dipapatšo. Ntlo e swanetše go reta mošomo wo o mobotse wa go dirwa ke Mna Frans Malatsi, wa go laetša gore bokamoso bja naga ya gešo bo širetšegile. Mabopane Sun e na le bokgoni bja go thwala baswa ba bangwe le go hloma mešomo. Re tutuetša mmušo gore o tle ka mekgwa le maano a go thuša baswa go tšweletša bokgoni bja bona le go thekga borakgwebopotlana.
ANC e lakaletša morulaganyi le mogatiši wa Mabopane Sun bokamoso bjo bokaone. Ke a leboga.
Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP)
Ms M T KUBAYI (ANC)
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EUTHANASIA – STATEMENT BY PROF THEO BOER
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Madam Speaker, reports that a former euthanasia supporter, Prof Theo Boer, has told the House of Lords in the UK not to make the same mistake as the Netherlands are relevant for us in South Africa, as, following the death of Member of Parliament Oriani-Ambrosini recently, talk of the end-of-life goal resurfacing on the parliamentary agenda was heard.
The ACDP has pointed out that this would be hugely problematic for many reasons, including the likelihood of Aids sufferers and the elderly feeling pressured to commit suicide to make life easier for others.
Prof Boer, who is an academic in the field of ethics, argued seven years ago that a good euthanasia law would produce relatively low numbers of deaths, but he now says he believes that the very existence of a euthanasia law turns assisted suicide from a last resort into a normal procedure.
Prof Boer, who was a member of a review committee that monitors euthanasia deaths, has said that euthanasia is now becoming so prevalent in the Netherlands that it is on the way to becoming a default mode of dying for cancer patients. Assisted deaths have increased by about 15% every year since 2008 and the number could hit a record 6 000 this year. Dr Boer is also concerned at the extension of killing to include the demented and the depressed, and the establishment of travelling euthanising doctors, saying he was wrong – terribly wrong - in fact to have believed that regulated euthanasia would work, “I used to be a supporter of the Dutch law, but now, with 12 years of experience, I take a very different view”. Thank you.
Ms N NDONGENI (ANC)
Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP)
|
VIOLENCE IN POST OFFICE STRIKE
(Member’s Statement)
IsiXhosa:
Ms N NDONGENI (ANC): Sekela Somlomo, i-ANC ikhathazekile ngogwayimbo olunobundlobongela oluqhutywa ngabasebenzi beeNkonzo zasePosini eGauteng njengangoku.
Olu gwayimbo luqhutywa ngabasebenzi abangxungxileyo abangamakheswa kwiiNkonzo zePosi. Bebesoloko bekuthethathethwano nabaphathi beeNkonzo zePosi kule minyaka idlulileyo malunga nenkqubo yokubaqesha isigxina babe yinxalenye yeli ziko.
Singulo mbutho kaKhongolose siyababongoza aba basebenzi bakugwayimbo ukuba bagwayimbe ngendlela ezolileyo nenoxolo engatshabalalisi ziseko ezingundoqo ezidingeka kakhulu ekuboneleleni uluntu ngeenkonzo.
Kwakhona sikwabongoza abaphathi beeNkonzo zePosi zaseMzantsi Afrika kwakunye noMphathiswa ukuba baqinisekise ukuba kukho izindululo ezikhawulezileyo ezinezisombululo zexesha elide. Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Ms N W A MICHAEL (DA)
Ms N NDONGENI (ANC)
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HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE IN MAMELODI
(Member’s Statement)
Ms N W A MICHAEL (DA): Speaker, on Tuesday, 9 September 2014 the people of Mamelodi in the Tshwane Municipality – more specifically the residents of Ward 10 in Extension 11, Mamelodi East – suffered great human rights abuse under the inept and timorous government of the ANC metro council when hundreds of their informal dwellings were illegally razed to the ground.
The residents of this area were forced to watch as hundreds of their homes were ripped apart without a court order; without explanation; without written warning; and, perhaps most shockingly, without providing any alternative shelter for residents.
This act of viciousness against the residents went on until Wednesday afternoon when the Pretoria High Court granted an urgent interdict to stop their homes being demolished. The residents have now served notice on the Tshwane Metro to have their homes restored.
On Sunday an urgent community meeting was held in Ward 10. Cllr Peter Millar, Cllr Magic Mampuru, Cllr Maria Napo, Cllr Ntsiki Mokhotho and Cllr Mokganya Ramohoebo – all DA councillors in the Tshwane Metro - were there to assist the residents. Surprise! Surprise! Not a single ANC councillor or official was anywhere to be found. [Interjections.]
This, however, does not matter. The DA is the fastest growing party in Mamelodi, and for this reason alone the DA cares for the people of Mamelodi. We will relentlessly pursue this issue and make sure that the residents of Mamelodi have their homes rebuilt and that no further destruction by the ANC-led council will be allowed. We will be lodging a formal complaint with the Human Rights Commission. [Applause.]
Ms T MAHAMBEHLALA (ANC)
|
Ms N W A MICHAEL (DA)
PRESIDENT ZUMA OPENS NEW SCHOOL IN KENSINGTON
(Member’s Statement)
Ms T MAHAMBEHLALA (ANC): Hon Speaker, as a number one priority the ANC and its government will leave no stone unturned in making sure that education is accessible to everyone in South Africa.
In opening a new school in Kensington, Cape Town, recently President Zuma once again referred to the Freedom Charter as a guide, proclaiming that “the doors of learning and of culture shall be opened!” Speaker, I would like to quote from the President’s speech. He said:
The official handover of this state-of-the-art school, here in the Western Cape, is living proof that we are on course to deliver on the demands of the people as laid down in the Freedom Charter and the Constitution of the Republic.
The ANC is committed to building new schools and replacing all inappropriate structures. Our children should be taught in decent schools and teachers should work in schools which are conducive to learning and teaching. The opening of the school in Kensington is part of the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, aimed at replacing the mud and plankie schools all over the country to ensure that education flourishes. Our children should be taught in secure environments which affirm their dignity as citizens of this beautiful country.
The ANC-led government continues to change the future prospects of learners throughout the country. We hope that all stakeholders, from teachers and learners to parents, will jealously guard this precious facility. [Time expired.]
IsiXhosa:
Siyaqhuba.
Mr S M JAFTA (AIC)
Ms T MAHAMBEHLALA (ANC)
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POOR SERVICE DELIVERY IN MATATIELE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S M JAFTA (AIC): Hon Speaker, the AIC wants this House to note the poor conditions in the area of Matatiele as far as service delivery is concerned. This has resulted from our government’s ignorance, and the forceful incorporation of the area into the Eastern Cape instead of KZN.
Hon Speaker, the howlers can do their job, but it is alarming to learn that three students and one adult, who were involved in a car accident on the first of this month in which one educator lost her life, are still lying unattended in the East Griqualand and Usher Memorial Hospital in Kokstad, which is in KZN. This happened after the Taylor Bequest Hospital in Matatiele failed to transfer them to Nelson Mandela Academic Hospital at Mthatha because the hospital was allegedly full, without beds available, and therefore could not admit the patients from Matatiele.
The AIC feels that the time has come to free the people of the area to be in the province of their choice where services will be easily accessed. I thank you.
Mrs J D KILIAN (ANC)
Mr S M JAFTA (AIC)
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EDUCATION BOOST FOR DISABLED AND OTHER CHILDREN IN NORTH WEST
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs J D KILIAN (ANC): Hon Speaker, making education the apex priority and embracing the ANC’s vision of quality education for all gained substantial support when Anglo American Platinum recently built facilities that allow easy mobility and access to classrooms for disabled learners at the Manthe Primary School in Taung, North West.
The school was dilapidated, affecting the learning of even the able–bodied pupils, when the mining company noted the plight of the learners at the school and decided to build a new school. The new school boasts an administration block, science and computer laboratories, a library and a space for remedial education for physically and mentally challenged pupils.
The ANC once more commends the contributions and financial support of the private sector in partnering with the South African government to ensure the progressive realisation of universal schooling, expanding quality education and eliminating disparities in education. We appeal to other businesses to do the same, so that we can work together to move South Africa forward. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms A T LOVEMORE (DA)
Mrs J D KILIAN (ANC)
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PROTESTERS IN KURUMAN AND GRABOUW DISRUPT EDUCATION
(Member’s Statement)
Ms A T LOVEMORE (DA): Speaker, 17 000 learners enrolled at schools in the Kuruman area in the Northern Cape have not been able to attend school since 5 June this year. Protesters demanding the building of a road have refused to allow their community’s children to attend school in order to ensure that their demands are heard. MECs and Ministers were booed out of the district, and so they gave in. They agreed to build the road.
The children are still not at school – the protesters will not allow schooling until road building commences. Every one of the 17 000 learners will be required to repeat their current grade. The matric learners will not write their end-of-year exams. Those responsible have got what they wanted, despite the fact that keeping children out of school is a criminal offence. The DA has laid criminal charges and will pursue these.
This morning, the MEC for education in the Western Cape, Debbie Schäfer, laid criminal charges against protesters in Grabouw, who are copying the Northern Cape tactics, keeping children out of school to support their demands. The travesty was allowed to occur under an ANC government in the Northern Cape. It will not be allowed to happen in the DA-governed Western Cape. We are serious about our children’s education and we will not allow it to be compromised. [Applause.]
Mr I A PIKININI(ANC)
Ms A T LOVEMORE (DA)
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ANC CONGRATULATES ANCYL ON 70TH ANNIVERSARY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr I A PIKININI (ANC): Hon Speaker, the ANC congratulates the ANC Youth League on its 70th anniversary. The ANC attaches great value to the ANC Youth League, because it is an investment in the future for the sustainability of the ANC. The ANC established the youth league as an integral part of the ANC, although it exists as an autonomous structure.
In the early late 1930s the leadership of the ANC debated the need to mobilise young people to join a structure as an important force within the ranks of the ANC. During the 1942 National Conference of the ANC held at Fort Hare University, the formation of the ANC Youth League was canvassed and adopted. The ANC Youth league was later founded in Johannesburg on 10 September 1944.
The primary task of the ANC Youth League was to mobilise young people behind the vision of the ANC, as well as to serve as a preparatory school and incubator for the ANC. Throughout its existence, the ANC Youth League has never failed to discharge this important task, and all its different generations have appreciated their political responsibility to strengthen the ANC.
We are proud of the contribution the ANC Youth league has made throughout the evolution of the mother body, the ANC, during different epochs in history. Roar, young lions! Roar!
HON MEMBERS: Roar! [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! As there is an outstanding slot, I call upon the ANC again. Is there no other member of the ANC ready with a statement? I therefore call upon the DA.
Ms E R WILSON (DA)
Mr I A PIKININI (ANC)
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FINANCIAL MISCONDUCT IN MARULENG MUNICIPALITY
(Member’s Statement)
Ms E R WILSON (DA): Hon Speaker, the DA has laid a charge with the Public Protector to probe the financial misconduct in the Maruleng Municipality. In an oversight visit to Maruleng Municipality over the weekend the DA discovered that the municipality paid close to R1 million to two companies that were not registered with the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission to repair municipal sewerage pipes and pumps. These companies have been doing business with the municipality and getting tenders without following the correct procedures. Documents in the DA’s possession indicate that payments were made between October and April this year, questioning the accounting officer’s intent, which has violated the Municipal Finance Management Act regulations.
The Auditor-General report has shown that the municipality struggles with noncompliance with supply chain management regulations, and has incurred irregular expenditure to the tune of R6,5 million.
The DA is deeply concerned about the manner in which tenders are being awarded and the financial affairs of the municipality. We have also noted that the same documents that are in our possession were also handed over to the MEC for co-operative governance, human settlements and traditional affairs, Makoma Makhurupetje, and Minister Pravin Gordhan on 26 August 2014.
The DA requires answers by both the national and provincial departments as to why the situation was allowed to arise and to get a thorough report about the steps that they took to intervene in these tender irregularities. Thank you.
Ms H O MAXON (EFF)
Ms E R WILSON (DA)
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RACISM AT HIGHER LEARNING INSTITUTIONS IN FREE STATE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms H O MAXON (EFF): Speaker, the alleged racism at many higher education centres in the Free State province, especially the University of the Free State, is cause for concern. The University of the Free State is always making headlines for all the wrong reasons.
It is disturbing that in this day and age we still have incidents of racism in our institutions of higher learning. This is a clear indication that transformation in institutions of higher learning is not being taken seriously by the current government.
Many black students continue to suffer the consequences of racism at campuses across the country, including the University of the Free State. The white students are given preference over black students at UFS and enjoy certain study privileges. Conditions for black students in their studies are hostile, so that many of them are frustrated and do not prosper and thrive. They are not treated in the same way as their fellow white students.
Racism is so rife at the University of the Free State that many black students are forced to relocate to other provinces for their studies. This creates a huge skills shortage in the province because, upon completion of their studies, students no longer want to return to the Free State to work there. Among those driven away from the University of the Free State by racism are students in engineering and medicine, artisan careers, and many other rare skills. These students are funded by the Free State government in their studies, and in essence they should be returning to their home province to plough this back. However, under the current circumstances, it is very difficult for them to return.
Racism is traumatising black students in our institutions of higher learning, leaving them with huge emotional scars. It is bad and evil, and the current government is failing to confront it head on. Thank you. [Time expired.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a point of procedure: There was one extra slot that was given and there was only one motion that was not taken up. It was taken by the DA. I didn’t want to interrupt the hon member from the EFF because she is from Durban! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, I also didn’t want to do exactly the same.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: In future, can we just make sure that we do take them in the correct order?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, I want to draw your attention to the following, and I also did not want to disrupt you when you were speaking. There is a word that was used by the Chief Whip of the Opposition and you, on two occasions. You referred to members as “schizophrenic”. I want to check if that word is parliamentary because, in preparation for tomorrow’s appearance of the Deputy President, we were trying to feature that in our notes. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Good luck, hon Shivambu. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
The SPEAKER
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PRESIDENT ZUMA OPENS NEW SCHOOL IN KENSINGTON
PROTESTERS IN KURUMAN AND GRABOUW DISRUPT EDUCATION
ANNUAL NATIONAL ASSESSMENTS FOR GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS ON 16-19 SEPTEMBER 2014
EDUCATION BOOST FOR DISABLED AND OTHER CHILDREN IN NORTH WEST
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, hon Speaker. Last week the President was part of a ceremony in which we delivered a state-of-the-art school exceeding R45 million in value in Kensington in the Western Cape. The week before that the Deputy Minister of Basic Education had the pleasure of going to Lotus River and handing a state-of-the-art school exceeding R42 million in value to the people and the communities of Lotus River. The Western Cape itself is going to be a beneficiary, receiving 14 schools in this year and another 11 thereafter.
The children of Grabouw and the children of Kuruman are the children of this country. We do not discriminate against children of the Western Cape or distinguish between them and others simply because the Cape belongs to the DA. Indeed, the Western Cape is the second largest beneficiary of the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, programme. It is, therefore, unfortunate that a member of this hon House has chosen politics above the best interests of our learners. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
We can celebrate the fact that this year again we will be testing the ability in literacy and numeracy of more than 7,2 million learners. It is important that we do so, because it is important for us to be able to assess the ability of our learners in each school, and in each grade across the country. In this way we are able to take the appropriate steps to bring remediation where there are deficiencies. Indeed, the past three years have indicated that there has been a significant and substantial improvement in the achievement of literacy and numeracy.
Let me conclude by saying that we are indeed grateful to the private sector for the partnerships that they have concluded because we believe that together we can move South Africa forward. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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POSTPONEMENTS OF DEADLINE FOR PRESENTATION OF UNABRIDGED BIRTH CERTIFICATES FOR CHILDREN
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I very carefully noted the words used by the hon member from the DA, hon Hoosen, when he made his statement. I particularly noted the use of the words “banana republic” when referring to our beloved country. [Interjections.]
I suspect that the tourism industry would ask the hon member to refrain from using disparaging language when describing our country, and thank him for that. [Interjections.] If he is so concerned about the tourism industry, I suggest that he should use the many platforms available to him to promote South Africa as a destination of choice instead of using disparaging language ... [Applause.] ... when describing our country. Instead of calling South Africa a “banana republic”, perhaps he should tell the people of the world that South Africa is still the most beautiful place to visit and it offers the best facilities in the world. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! What is the problem, hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 69. It is very clear that what is provided for there, “a material part”, of the hon Hoosen’s speech has been misunderstood, and I would like to repeat the words that were actually used from the written copy that I have here: “It is this kind of governance that will make us look like a banana republic ...” He did not say that we are a banana republic. [Interjections.]
Ms M T KUBAYI: A point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
Ms M T KUBAYI: A point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Wait, hon member. I want to allow the Deputy Minister to continue and finish her answer, and what she is saying in response to what the hon member has now said. [Interjections.] Wait a minute. Hon Deputy Minister, would you like to change what you are saying as a result of what has just been clarified?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Perhaps, ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: ... instead of his saying that it is this kind of governance that will lead us into our being a banana republic, the hon member should say to the people of the world that they should come to South Africa because government has taken the necessary measures to ensure that while they are visiting our beautiful country they will be safe. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mbalula, did you not have your hand up? Oh, you were probably asking for a glass of water. [Interjections.] All right.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
The SPEAKER
|
VIOLENCE IN OFFICE STRIKE
(Minister’s Response)
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE KWEZOKUXHUMANA NEZINSIZAKALO ZEPOSI: Somlomo, ngivumelana nomhlonishwa uNdongeni kaKhongolose ukuthi lolu dlame oluqhubekayo kulaba abatelekile eposini kumele luphele. Inkinga ebhekene nePosi yenziwa omashonisa okuthiwa ama-labour brokers ababexhaphaza abasebenzi.
Okokuqala, ngonyaka wezi-2012 kwavunyelwana nabasebenzi nabaphathi ukuthi kunokuthi laba bantu baqhubeke nokusebenzisa omashonisa kodwa bebe beqashwe okwesikhashana baqashwe yiposi ngqo, uma kuvela izikhala zomsebenzi baqashwe ngokuphelele. ngesonto eledlule ngicele ibhodi leposi ukuthi ngingenelele kulesi siteleka nodlame oluqhubekayo. Zonke izinyunyana zabasebenzi nabamele abasebenzi bayavumelana ukuthi lolu dlame alulungile kumele lumiswe.
Okwesibili, kuvunyelwene ukuthi isivumelwano esenziwa phambi kwe-CCMA ekuqaleni konyaka sokuthi njengoba kwakuvuleke amathuba angama-600 emisebenzi labo basebenzi besikhashana baqashwe ngokuphelele asiqhutshwe siqedwe ngokukhulu ukushesha. Njengamanje abasebenzi bamatasa babambisene nabaphathi beposi kubhaliswa labo basebenzi ukuthi baqashwe ngokuphelele.
Kuvunyelwene futhi ukuthi izinhlaka zokuxhumana phakathi kwabaphathi nabasebenzi baseposini zivulwe njengoba kade zivaliwe ukuze kukwazi ukuthi kube khona ukukhulumisana phakathi kwabasebenzi nabaphathi. Kuphinde kwavunyelwana futhi ukuthi izinkinga ezibhekene neposi, ikakhulukazi lezi zokuletha ibhizinisi eposini nezimali nezinye ezenziwa abaphathi beposi kumele sibhekane nazo ngqo ukuze sikwazi ukuziqeda.
Ngalokho-ke Somlomo, sithi njengoKhongolose noma uhulumeni kaKhongolose abasebenzi abayeke udlame kodwa baphindele kulezi zinhlaka zokukhulumisana ukuze sikwazi ukuthi sisize iposi lethu nabasebenzi ababexhashazwa omashonisa, phecelezi ama-labour broker. Ngiyabonga.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
|
SHOCKING CONDITIONS AT MATIKWANE HOSPITAL IN MPUMALANGA
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. I want to deal with the statement by the hon member from the EFF concerning the Matikwane Hospital in Mpumalanga. While we appreciate the concern of the hon member about the shortage of water at the hospital, I think that she without doubt exaggerated the situation at the hospital greatly. [Interjections.]
We will indeed investigate the state of the water supply at the hospital. I want to assure the House that we as the national Department of Health work very closely with all the provinces in making sure that we attend to all issues relating to maintenance of infrastructure, especially security of supply in regard to water, electricity and all other essential services. We have also allocated funds for this from the conditional grant, and we have an agreement with the National Treasury that at least 30% of our conditional grant can be used for maintenance.
So, I want to reject with the contempt it deserves the assertion by the hon member that nothing has changed in South Africa. I don’t know where the hon member comes from or where she lives ... [Interjections.] ... that she should come and say that after 20 years of freedom nothing has changed, and also make the unsubstantiated allegation that we in this ANC-led government are deliberately ill-treating our people.
I think that while we accept whatever information the hon member may have, which we will definitely investigate, it is really irresponsible for her to make this kind of wild allegation. We will follow it up and make sure that if there is indeed a water crisis, that is attended to. I thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH
|
KEY ROLE OF SOUTH AFRICA IN BRICS
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I want to welcome the statement by the hon Mkongi, drawing attention to our role in Brics and the promotion of industrialisation and regional integration.
Firstly, let me just say that I can report to the House that the Brics Business Council, which was established under South African chairpersonship, will be meeting in the near future under the chairperson from Brazil to take forward the important work of identifying business opportunities between the Brics countries.
Secondly, I can also mention that the Contact Group on Economic and Trade Issues reported to the ministers of trade in Brazil on a study which had been conducted on the promotion of value-added trade between Brics countries. We will be pushing energetically for the implementation of that.
Thirdly, the much better known establishment of the New Development Bank of Brics will, of course, be a resource that can be used to finance infrastructure in the African continent, which is critical to the integration of that continent.
I can also just mention in this connection that the President of the African Development Bank noted recently that the infrastructure deficit was costing this continent the equivalent of 2% growth. So, filling this important lacuna is very important to the promotion of regional integration. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
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FINANCIAL MISCONDUCT IN MARULENG MUNICIPALITY
HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE IN MAMELODI
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. In responding to the issues raised in regard to Maruleng Municipality in Limpopo, I would like to say to the hon member that we are aware of and have noted the issues raised.
We in Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs have made a diagnosis regarding municipalities that are facing one or other type of challenge. The municipal diagnosis shows us that 85 of the municipalities are faced by similar challenges. We have now developed an intervention plan that is going to bring stability to all the municipalities so that they are functional and able to deliver the services that are so needed by our people.
On another issue, the Mamelodi evictions, we just want to say that the ANC cares for the people of Mamelodi just as much as we care for the people of South Africa as a whole. [Interjections.] Indeed, it is regrettable that the evictions took place in the manner in which they did.
Together with Human Settlements we are developing a protocol which will guide municipalities in any other evictions, so that we can handle this matter with care and so that when people go into land invasion in any form we will still able to deal with it and bring stability, but with the care and love that we have for our people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
|
RENTAL HOUSING AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Portfolio Committee on Human Settlements thereon)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the First Order on the Order Paper stand over, in line with Rule 97(c).
Question put: That the First Order stand over.
Motion agreed to.
Mr J M MTHEMBU
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
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CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF ACCEPTANCE OF DOHA AMENDMENT TO KYOTO PROTOCOL TO UN FRAMEWORK CONVENTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President and Speaker, the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs received a briefing on the Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol from the Department of Environmental Affairs on 24 August this year. Subsequent to that briefing, the Doha Amendment was formally referred by Parliament to the committee. It was after this referral that the committee adopted its report on 2 September, recommending to the National Assembly that it ratify the Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol.
The African continent is amongst the areas that are most vulnerable to the effects of climate change. Climate change poses a threat to our long-term sustainable development and economic growth, and the overall quality of life of our people.
Despite being among the regions least responsible for current and historical global greenhouse gas emissions, developing countries like ours have to take action to address the long-term impact of climate change. The economic case is simple. The long-term financial impact of inaction far exceeds the cost of action. South Africa has a national interest in maintaining a robust multilateral and rule-based international legal regime to address the threat posed by climate change.
In 1995 the international committee developed and adopted the UN Framework Convention to combat climate change. It recognises the common global responsibility to address climate change simultaneously, taking into account the varied capabilities of different countries to address the problem.
The Kyoto Protocol to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change was adopted in 1997 and came into force in 2005. It creates binding obligations on industrialised countries to reduce greenhouse gas emissions during specifically defined periods. It also outlines the specific obligations of developing countries towards mitigating the effect of climate change.
South Africa is a party to both the convention and the protocol. The first commitment period began in 2008 and ended in 2012. The second commitment period would therefore begin in 2013. In 2011 the international community agreed to amend the protocol to provide for a second commitment period from 2013 to 2020. The Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol was adopted in 2012, and it outlined this second commitment period of obligations on the part of developing countries to reduce emissions.
Although there is no legal obligation on South Africa as a developing country to do so, we must ratify the Doha Amendment in order for this crucial amendment to enter into force. Instruments of acceptance need to be submitted by at least three quarters of the parties to the Kyoto Protocol. As signatories to this protocol, we should once again affirm our commitment to our international obligations. We should deposit an instrument of acceptance before the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, Cop 20, that will take place in Lima, Peru, from 1 to 12 December this year. Therefore, Deputy Speaker, we submit that Parliament must ratify the Doha Amendment.
The effects of climate change are real. An increase in the global average temperature above 2Ëš C poses a danger to all of us, but especially to the poor and vulnerable – and of them are found here in Africa. To ratify this Doha Protocol will signal our seriousness in addressing the impact of climate change, both as South Africans and as members of the global community.
We therefore respectfully move that this House ratify the Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol. Thank you. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
Acceptance of the Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Mrs Y N PHOSA
Mr J M MTHEMBU
|
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING – STRATEGIC AND OPERATIONAL PLANNING WORKSHOP IN PRETORIA
Mrs Y N PHOSA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip, and hon members of this august House, the committee and the department attended a five-year strategic plan information session, where the Minister and the departmental officials explained their five-year strategic plan, medium-term expenditure framework, annual performance plan and linked budget, the White Paper, and the post-school education and training system.
Also in attendance at the session were the officials from the Human Resource Development Council, who briefed the committee on the HRD plan as aligned to government skills development priorities.
The Auditor-General presented the preliminary audit outcomes and the financial and performance challenges to be addressed by the department.
Today the committee is submitting a report flowing from the session with the following recommendations.
The Minister should submit a request to Treasury for additional funding for the unfunded key priorities. The expansion and growth of the higher education sector should be consistent with the baseline allocation to these institutions. Postgraduate funding should be increased to support the development of a future generation of academics, particularly those coming from previously disadvantaged communities.
Strengthening of partnerships with industry for the absorption of Technical and Vocational Education and Training College graduates should be prioritised. The roll-out plan for community colleges should be based on the differentiated needs of South African communities at large. Programmes offered by these colleges should lead to recognised qualifications which will empower those in need, in order to promote sustainable livelihoods.
More support should be given to underperforming sector education and training authorities, Setas, to improve the roll-out of skills development initiatives through interaction with the department and the robust interrogation of its programmes. We can conclude that the department is positioned to create a diverse and differentiated post-school system with a range of learning opportunities and training for the youth and adults of this country.
We would also like to acknowledge the achievements of the department from its inception to date, and we want to reassure this august House that with the provision of adequate financial and human resources the Department of Higher Education and Training, through its programmes, will have a positive impact on the radical socioeconomic change of the country by reducing poverty and inequality.
As I conclude, I would like to thank the hon Minister of Higher Education and Training, the Director-General, the Auditor-General, the Human Resource Development Council, the departmental officials and the members of the committee for giving us quality time and for their invaluable contribution to the strategic plan session. Let me also reiterate that the committee is hardworking and committed. My request is that they keep up the good work.
I therefore request the adoption of the report and the consideration of the recommendations made. Thank you [Applause.]
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
|
MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN SPEAKER IN TERMS OF SECTION 52(4) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, 1996
(Draft Resolution)
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move the Draft Resolution as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That the House—
- notes—
- the unacceptable level of disruption in sittings of the Fifth Parliament in the National Assembly;
- the Speaker’s inability to resolve key Rule-related matters of the House swiftly;
- that the Speaker prevented an oral question session in the last term by not making herself or another Presiding Officer from a conference available;
- the Speaker’s inability to protect the institution from the deliberate use of spurious points of order that have repeatedly shut down democratic practice; and
- the Speaker’s failure to instil respect in the authority of the institution and to restore order at the sitting of 21 August 2014;
- condemns the Speaker for—
- remaining the Chairperson of the ANC while serving as Speaker of this House;
- cancelling meetings of the Parliamentary Oversight Authority;
- not acceding to the request to have the Parliamentary Oversight Authority meet frequently; and
- making political appointments to her office by employing unelected former Members of Parliament, which costs millions of rands;
- passes a motion of no confidence in the Speaker; and
- removes the Speaker from her office in terms of section 52(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996.
[Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, hon members, South Africans, bagaetso, dumelang. Our Parliament should be the pride of our nation. It is here where we should debate differences and set a course for a brighter future for all of our people. Parliament should be an example for other nations. They should look at us as an exemplary democracy, a country with functional institutions, a country where everyone has a voice in this Chamber and where the powerful come to answer difficult questions.
Today I call on all members of this House to support a motion of no confidence in the Speaker of the House, hon Baleka Mbete. [Applause.] With the chairperson of the ANC as Speaker, we cannot have an effective Parliament.
Let me be clear, this motion is not personal. It is not about hon Baleka Mbete. Hon Mbete is a competent member of this House. She is a former Deputy President. She has her flaws, but we respect her as an experienced politician. What this motion is about is the office she holds in the ANC and what that means for holding the office of Speaker. [Interjections.] She cannot serve as leader of the ANC and as a neutral Speaker in this House. The conflict of interest is untenable. [Applause.] Parliament can only work when the Speaker puts the country and the Constitution before the party.
And this is the truth, hon members: The ANC knows that it is losing public support every single day. It loses votes in election after election. In fact, President Zuma is more unpopular than ever before. The ship, Zuma’s ANC, is slowly sinking and Luthuli House is deploying every means to slow down the sinking of the ship. We see this playing out every single day in this Parliament.
Hon Baleka Mbete has been deployed here to make sure that President Zuma does not have to answer tough questions in this Parliament. In so doing she is placing her party before South Africa. [Applause.]
When Speaker Baleka Mbete hires former ANC MPs in order to place them in offices in Parliament that are supposed to be independent, she is placing the party before South Africa.
When Speaker Baleka Mbete allows the Security Cluster to militarise Parliamentary security to intimidate opposition MPs, she is placing the party before South Africa. [Applause.]
When Speaker Mbete holds an ANC rally inside the precinct of Parliament, as she did this afternoon, she is placing the party before the country. [Applause.]
And when Speaker Mbete covers for the President during a tough Questions session, she is placing the party before the country.
In fact, hon members, we all knew that when hon Mbete came to Parliament with her mind already made up to protect the President. While campaigning for President Zuma earlier on this year, the hon Mbete said, and I quote:
A lot was clarified, in fact, by Thuli’s report. She then goes on to say a few things which, in our view, are actually debatable because in the African tradition you don’t interfere with a man’s kraal. The issue of a man’s kraal or a kraal of a family is a holy space. And Thuli says: ‘No, they benefited and therefore President Zuma ought to think of paying some money’. We beg to differ very strongly, very, very strongly.
Hon members, the Speaker came here with her mind made up. She thinks President Zuma should not pay back any money in regard to the Nkandla issue. [Interjections.] She thinks the Public Protector is wrong and she also thinks the Public Protector must be ignored.
She came here not as an honest referee, but as a player for President Zuma’s ANC. She has sold this Parliament out to her masters at Luthuli House and, like everything else with the ANC, she is willing to sacrifice it all to protect one man from being held accountable.
Make no mistake, every lever of power is being used to protect President Zuma from answering questions on Nkandla and the hundreds of charges against him.
In Parliament hon Baleka Mbete protects him. Outside Parliament the ANC at large, like the hon Deputy Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, attacks the Public Protector and undermines the Constitution. At the SABC Hlaudi Motsoeneng has been deployed there to shield the President from becoming even more unpopular than he already is. It is all part of an ANC agenda to protect President Zuma at all costs. So we sit with a Speaker who fights for one man, and not for Parliament or the people of South Africa.
During hon Mbete’s tenure as Speaker in this House in the Fifth Parliament, South Africa has seen unprecedented events which have brought this House to a shameful state. The Speaker has not been able to obtain order in the House on numerous occasions. This has resulted in the important work of Parliament being reduced to a slanging match of spurious points of order which, on many occasions, were ruled on in a biased manner.
Hon members, the emblem of this Parliament carries this simple motto, “We the People”. This is why I emphasise the point of the House being an institution which works for the people of South Africa, not for Luthuli House. Nowhere does the line, “We the ANC”, feature on Parliament’s emblem. [Applause.]
We cannot allow our parliamentary democracy to regress. We have seen in the past what regression looks like within our own borders, in the Kingdom of Lesotho. We cannot allow our parliamentary democracy to regress. It is unfortunate that Parliament has had to come to this. In fact, if members of this House respect Parliament and the Constitution, we should never have a biased Speaker in the first place.
For the sake of a functioning Parliament, I ask that members on both sides of the House put South Africa first and support a motion of no confidence in Speaker Baleka Mbete. Let us place this country before any party. I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
|
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, Speaker of Parliament and hon members, on 7 May 2014 the people of South Africa came out in their millions to cast their votes and determine who would actually lead the fifth administration of this country. [Applause.] Over 11 million South Africans came out and gave the ANC another mandate to continue to be the leader of society, in line with our Constitution and the vision of moving South Africa forward, working together with our people. [Applause.]
What we are dealing with here today ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Deputy Speaker, with due respect, the audience is ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do not speak before you are recognised.
Mr G A GARDEE: No problem.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do not do that.
Mr G A GARDEE: I need your attention.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: Our hon guests are stamping their feet, and they are saying, “Heita, buttocks! Buttocks!” up there. They are disturbing the House and participating in its proceedings. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon Minister, proceed. Hon members and hon guests have been warned.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, 11 million South Africans came out and gave the ANC another mandate. We have come here to the National Assembly with the majority that has been bestowed upon us again, and with the experience of our having included everybody and made them part of this process towards change and the emancipation of our people.
The hon Baleka Mbete was amongst those gallant women who sat at the Convention for a Democratic South Africa, negotiating and crafting this Constitution. [Applause.] Schedule 3 defines the exact process according to which we have to elect the Speaker of Parliament. It is incumbent upon the ANC to use the more than 1,4 million of its members to determine who becomes Speaker. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please hold on. What are you rising on, hon member?
Ms E N LOUW: Deputy Speaker, I would like to draw to your attention yet again, and I want you to make a ruling on this, the fact that the guests in the gallery continue ... [Interjections.] ... pointing fingers at us.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right. Hon member, take your seat. It is all right.
Ms E N LOUW: You must make a ruling on this, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take you seat, hon member.
Ms E N LOUW: We cannot continue rising on these point of orders. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Hon member, take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon member, take your seat.
Hon members, there will be order here. Firstly, that order must come from members themselves and how they conduct themselves, so that those in the gallery recognise that you yourselves are orderly. [Interjections.] Regarding the guests in the gallery, the Speaker warned you: You are welcome, but you should not participate in the proceedings of the House. Please do not repeat that.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair, we are not in competition with the gallery here. We are here to do our work. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, no, no.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on?
Mr J S MALEMA: No, you cannot do that. I am rising in regard to what you have said, and this is how you chair! [Interjections.] Please, you can’t compare us to those people in the gallery there. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, ...
Mr J S MALEMA: We are entitled to be here and we are doing everything in our power to conduct ourselves within the Rules. We are not going to be told how to behave, instead of your calling those people to order because they are showing signs of intimidation. They are even intimidating us. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I hope you will not again do what you have just done here. I have requested you not to stand up and speak as you did, in violation of the Rules. Do not do that. I hope you will not do that. Hon Minister, proceed with your speech.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. What are you rising on, hon member?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I am rising on a point of procedure.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: You have raised an important point, Deputy Speaker, saying that in this House these are hon members and there is protocol that is being observed. Our simple request is that you make a ruling that members in the gallery must not participate in the discussions. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: You have not! [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I cannot accept that. You need to make a ruling so that members know where they stand. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me address the hon Maimane. I will give you a chance. Hold on.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please do.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, when I say to guests in the gallery that the Speaker warned them, and that they should not participate in this debate, that is a ruling. [Interjections.] That is a ruling. You cannot claim that I have not done it. [Interjections.] Hon members!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. What are you rising on?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On the matter of order. We are not fools here. These are the same people who were being addressed in the rally by the Speaker. [Interjections.] These people have been rented to come and disrupt this sitting today. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please ask them to leave this House so that we can continue with our business? Please. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Before you came to sit in that Chair the Speaker made a ruling more than twice, telling them not to participate. You are making the same ruling for the third time. This means that they are not being compliant ... [Interjections.] ... and therefore the proposal that they must leave is the only option we have, because these people are disrupting us. [Interjections.] We cannot be harassed by the ANC inside here, as well as the ANC up there.
Ms M T KUBAYI: I have a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
Ms M T KUBAYI: Deputy Speaker, I want to make an appeal. I think the whippery from the ANC has gone out to try and speak to the guests, but we need to understand and remember that this is the House of the people. [Interjections.] It belongs to the people of South Africa. We as Parliament can never request members of the public to vacate Parliament. That can never happen in a democratic South Africa. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lekota, what are you rising on?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order: It is not the task of the members of the House to tell you how to control everybody in here.
Therefore, sir, before the House even starts, the Speaker’s office and the officers of Parliament must ensure that those who are visitors here know what is expected of them and how they should conduct themselves. If people are not given a clear indication of what they are expected to do when they are observing the procedures here – if they are not told – they will make mistakes. It is only after they have made mistakes that the Presiding Officers want to take action.
From that point of view we ought to have had orderlies in here, including up there. You should not be told by members here that somebody is making noise. You should have got orderlies up there to make sure of who is doing this, orderlies who know how to control the situation.
Please sir, maintain the decorum of the House. [Applause.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: I rise in terms of Rule 41 of the 8th edition which says, “The presiding officer may, whenever he or she thinks fit, order strangers to withdraw.” A proposal has been put before you. We feel intimidated in this part of the sitting and accordingly the Speaker is requested to request them to withdraw. They should go out now. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right. Thank you, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon members! Hon member, take your seat. Hon Minister? [Interjections.] Order! Order!
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, as the ANC we agree with your ruling that our visitors in the gallery should not participate in the debate. You have made a ruling and they should comply with it.
We also believe that this Parliament, which we established as an open Parliament with public access, must retain that character. So, we do not agree with referring to persons in the public gallery as “those people”, or as people who must be thrown out. This is not in concert with the spirit of the Constitution.
However, we do agree with you that the visitors in the gallery must listen to the Speaker and the Presiding Officers, and they must not participate in the debate. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, may I ... [Interjections.] Hon Ramakatsa, what are you rising on?
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Speaker, we as Members of Parliament and parties represented in this Parliament are all aware of what the hon Minister has uttered here. All that we are saying is that, while people have the right as South Africans to come and observe the proceedings here, if people are brought here with a different intention, that of disrupting the House, that can easily be picked up. We are not saying that Parliament should be closed to the public, but we are saying that we should avoid rented crowds, ... [Laughter.] ... invited here for another objective, of disrupting the proceedings of the House. I thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it is disrespectful to talk about “rented crowds”. [Interjections.] Hon members in the House, we will observe the Rules as we understand them. Hon members in the public gallery, there are people who will work with you in the gallery, who are deployed by Parliament there in order to take care of things, so that the Rules are observed throughout our proceedings – all the time. Hon Minister, proceed.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Fellow South Africans, it is clear that this titanic struggle is between the forces representing the future and the forces striving to preserve the old order, who are ganging up under the guise of challenging the integrity of the Speaker.
All these shenanigans in regard to the Speaker of Parliament are really phantoms which masquerade as the essence and nature of opposition politics in our country, and the proverbial belief that in sport the game is won, not by playing the ball, but by playing the person. [Interjections.]
Setwana:
Lo re lekane.
We as the ANC have striven to improve the lot of every member of our society. Furthermore, we have enjoyed an uninterrupted period of peace, security and stability, including the consolidation of the institutions of democracy. Moreover, in the recent national elections the ANC obtained a mandate to continue with our quest to dismantle the vestiges and legacy of colonialism and apartheid.
We take cognisance of the fact that patriarchy has taken on other forms. The attack on the Speaker is a reflection of patriarchy, sexism and male chauvinism, and individuals who are threatened by the power, the influence and the astuteness of the this member of the ANC. [Interjections.] She is not her own creation – 1,4 million members of the ANC have affirmed her as the National Chairperson of the ANC. [Applause.]
The discussions here today are very embarrassing, because millions of our people are expecting us to talk about how we will take the National Development Plan forward. It is also about how we as a House exercise oversight over the executive. However, for the past 100 days members on the other side have been preoccupied with going for individual leaders of the ANC.
IsiZulu:
Ngesintu bantu ikhonkotha ehambayo. Siyaqhuba thina. [Ihlombe.]
English:
We are here today, amongst other things, to reassert our principles and defend the hard won struggle for the emancipation of women.
We are also defending the right of the majority not to be undermined by a minority. [Applause.] We have demonstrated over the years through struggle – through the shedding of blood and dying – that a minority can never rule over a majority. [Applause.] You can masquerade as an opposition, but all that we know is that we are here to move South Africa forward, including those that voted for you, because we believe “that South Africa belongs to all (those) who live in it”.
It is through engagement and persuasion that the House must gain the decorum that it deserves. There are Rules and we cannot refer to them selectively. If you want to amend the Constitution today regarding the election of the Speaker, remember it was you who were saying that the ANC majority can pose a threat, because the ANC might want to amend the Constitution. However, we are here to defend the Constitution, we are here to defend the Rules, and we are here to defend the will of the majority. [Applause.]
Let me share with fellow South Africans that just in the past 100 days ...
IsiZulu:
... siqhubile. Ikhonkotha ehambayo.
English:
In the last 100 days we have been able for the first time to provide potable water to the people under uMkhanyakude District Municipality, to those communities. Secondly, we have seen that a state-of-the-art school has been delivered by President Zuma here in the Western Cape. [Applause.] We have also seen the opening by the Department of Transport of the N8 road in Thaba Nchu. We have seen the reopening of the land claim process by the Department of Rural Development. [Applause.] We’ve also seen the Department of Arts and Culture bringing back the remains of Nat Nakasa and even launching a programme worth R3 billion to build libraries in our communities. In the coming two days the President will be convening a local government summit to reposition local government so that we can accelerate delivery.
Talk to us about our plans – do not talk to us about the fact that you failed to influence our people when you were canvassing. We have our manifesto, we have the NDP and we have the interests of our people at heart, including those that have voted for you to move forward with them. [Interjections.]
Mr S J MASANGO: Deputy Speaker, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member? Hon Minister, please wait.
Mr S J MASANGO: Deputy Speaker, today’s motion is all about the Speaker, and the hon member is talking about the President. We are not debating the President today, but the Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, proceed. Yes, hon Chief Whip. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, we can’t stand it when people do not want to listen to a speaker and they disrupt her with frivolous points of order. [Interjections.] This member ... [Interjections.] The hon Maimane was speaking about the President of the ANC and not about the Speaker, and they did not object to that. Now they want us to shut up because they will not tolerate the opinion of another party. Stop them from doing this. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Deputy Speaker, our people are yearning for change in their lives and not for people to come to the National Assembly and use this Assembly to try to influence society regarding things that they failed to do when we were campaigning for the elections.
We have got a mandate, we have got the NDP and we have got the manifesto.
IsiZulu:
Ikhonkhotha ehambayo. [Ihlombe.]
English:
Madam Speaker, we have confidence in you. The ANC and the people of South Africa have confidence in ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson!
An HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member at the back.
Mr P G MOTEKA: Deputy Speaker, ...
IsiZulu:
... kukhonkhotha izinja zodwa.
English:
Are there dogs in this House? [Interjections.] Hon members cannot khonkhotha [bark]; only dogs khonkhotha [bark]. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right. Hon Minister, please proceed and mind your language.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I think this issue of figurative speech ...
Setwana:
... a re o tla ba thibela ka dibono.
English:
Now there is another proverbial idiom here, that “kukhonkothwa ehambayo”. This is very insulting because only dogs bark. [Interjections.] So, can you please rule whether it is parliamentary to use words that border on being a reference to dogs and dogs and dogs? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. I have done that. [Interjections.] Take your seat.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, this is a figure of speech. We are not going to split hairs now on the use of figures of speech. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, ...
Mr Z M D MANDELA: On a point of order, Chair:
IsiXhosa:
Bendiza kuthi kule nyanga yesintu sakowethu, lulwimi lwesizwe sakuthi olu. IsiXhosa asitolikwa. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. We still want to assert that the role of this august House is to exercise oversight and hold the executive accountable. It is also to appreciate the will of the majority and seek to persuade and influence one another through debate. Let us focus on the agenda for the coming five years so that history may not judge us harshly.
We know for a fact that a minority has never dominated a majority. We refuse to allow this, and we will expose the fact that this is a minority that is hellbent on undermining the will of the people. Dankie! Ngiyabonga! [Thank you.] [Applause.]
Mrs A M DREYER
The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION
|
Mrs A M DREYER: Mr Deputy Speaker, when we, the people, debate the role of the Speaker, we assess the professionality and the effectiveness of the role-player. We look at the position and not, firstly, at the individual or the gender. Like in the military, we have to respect the rank of the person, not necessarily the incumbent. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Mrs A M DREYER: This debate is about the manner in which the incumbent instils confidence and meets the requirements of the job. Therefore, I will focus on the basic requirements of any professional Speaker, regardless of the gender.
Firstly, impartiality in a Speaker ensures that all members are able to articulate their viewpoints, specifically the weakest members or the smallest parties. After what happened in Parliament on 21 August, it can rightly be asked: Was a democratic debate encouraged or suppressed? Can the Speaker hold high office in the ANC and maintain impartiality in Parliament? [Interjections.]
Secondly, an effective Speaker helps ensure accountability of the executive, including the President, by insisting that they attend sittings and answer questions. This is not happening when the Speaker protects the President for spending over R246 million of public money on his private residence. [Interjections.]
Thirdly, a professional Speaker will ensure that meetings of portfolio committees are open to the public, including the media. However, recently meetings of the Communications Portfolio Committee were suddenly closed to the public because the ANC was embarrassed by information that would become public. A study by the Right2Know organisations indicated that secrecy is increasing, and more and more the public are being denied important information, often using the National Key Points Act as a smokescreen.
A fourth critically important requirement is that a professional Speaker upholds the Constitution. However, this is not the case when Bills that are clearly unconstitutional are pushed through Parliament, Bills such as the Infrastructure Development Bill, the Public Administration Management Bill, and the Property Valuation Bill.
A fifth principle is that issues of critical importance to South Africa are discussed in the National Assembly, instead of the Assembly’s wasting time on ceremonial matters. The fact is that many such debates have been requested, but blocked by the Speaker. For example, a study by the independent research group, Afrobarometer, indicates that South Africans are experiencing increasing levels of poverty. Between 2011 and 2013, 40% of South Africans have experienced water, food and medical care shortages regularly, while 60% have experienced income shortages regularly. Repeated requests by the DA to debate issues like this have been denied, because the Speaker believed them to be of no immediate concern.
In conclusion, a professional Speaker adheres to principles like impartiality, holding the executive to account, including the President, upholding the Constitution and allowing debates on issues that are critical to South Africa. Several ANC Speakers, and specifically the current incumbent, virtually disregard all these principles. That is why the National Assembly needs a new and professional Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
Mrs A M DREYER
|
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker and hon members, the EFF has long lost confidence in the credibility of the Speaker in regard to running this House impartially, or in any manner with objectivity. While examples abound, perhaps it’s important to take a step back and look at the origins of this system.
It predates our democracy by the way, as it is a system that comes from prior to 1994. It’s interesting that at that time progressive forces, including the liberation movement, lambasted the National Party for using the same method in oppressing and controlling the Progressive Party. [Applause.] The NP was lambasted then, and yet we stand here today in 2014 and lambast the same system.
We might differ with the ruling party on many issues, but we say that we should use this platform for honest debate. Let us desist from making the Speaker control the debates in this House, in the process causing her to be very conflicted. The conflict in her can be read in her body language and facial expression. While her independent intellect tells her objectively what to do, her heart subjectively tells her that she should “toe the party line for that is what puts bread on the table.” [Applause.]
In 2004 Eckstein May, one of the champions who writes on the Westminster system, which is where we took this system from, said about the Speaker that the Speaker’s impartiality is a precondition for the successful running of the House and keeping it in order. I like deductive thinking because from this statement you can deduce the opposite, that the Speaker’s partiality is a precondition for the House to break down into chaos and ruckus. Haven’t we had many of these instances thus far? [Interjections.]
It is for this reason that the EFF calls for the practice to be abandoned. We join the DA in a vote of no confidence in the Speaker. [Applause.]
HON MEMBERS: Boo!
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Moreover, we declare that we should get into the practice of using retired judges ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order! Order, hon members!
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Let us get into the practice of using retired judges to run the proceedings of this House. [Interjections.]
Why retired judges? It is because they do not suck up to anybody for promotion. They are not going to be blackmailed because they are still paying off their bonds, their cars or their houses. [Interjections.] They are impartial. Besides this, they know the law. They are not going to stop proceedings while they consult parliamentary legal services. [Interjections.] They are also not going to tell us that they will tell us tomorrow as they need to go and look at the Hansard. They are used to sitting and listening to opposing opinions and making a judgement. [Interjections.] They are trained.
You know confidence is defined as knowing without a shadow of doubt ... [Interjections.]
Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Is the hon member able to take a question? Hon member!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member at the podium, will you take your seat please? [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! It’s not very wise to drown your own speaker in howling and interjections. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Hon members, I am addressing you now. It is not very wise to drown your own member in howling. Let us allow the speaker at the podium a reasonable opportunity to be able to address the House. Continue, hon member.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Thank you, House Chair. Confidence is defined as knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that that which you are dealing with is assured. The opposite of confidence is not lack of confidence. It is actually defined in the English language as “arrogance” or what they call “hubris”, which is impersonated confidence, or misplaced confidence.
Lest we suffer misplaced confidence in a Speaker that we know represents the ruling party, we stand here today and we say: Let the judges preside.
They can be male or female - it is not a gender issue, much as degeneration into a situation where members want to use their buttocks to protect the President is not a gender issue. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It is a sad day in Parliament when we want women’s empowerment to degenerate to the point that they use their buttocks to protect corrupt male individuals. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members!
Prince M G BUTHELEZI
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
|
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, hon Speaker, hon Deputy Speaker, Your Excellency our Deputy President, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, and hon members, today we must remember Sir John Bussy, Mr Thomas Thorpe, Sir Thomas Tresham, Mr William Catesby, Sir Richard Empson, Mr Edmond Dudley and Sir Thomas More. Requiescat in pace. [Rest in peace.]
These seven Speakers of the Parliament of the United Kingdom were all beheaded. It was not for treachery or neglect of duty, but for delivering news from Parliament that the King did not like. This was at a time when the King could do no wrong.
Within the oldest parliamentary democracy, the mother of all parliaments, that of the United Kingdom, the Speaker is nonpartisan and represents Parliament to the monarch. The Speaker does not represent the wishes of the monarch within Parliament. The need for the Speaker to be impartial and above party-political controversy is met by the requirement that, upon election, the Speaker resigns from his or her political party, shedding old loyalties and friendships in the House. They are expected to stay away from former party colleagues, even in the Commons dining room. But it is still the prerogative of the majority party to choose the Speaker.
That is the importance ascribed by the oldest parliamentary democracy to the impartiality of the Speaker. We have perhaps erred in this regard in South Africa’s young parliamentary democracy.
Our Speaker is not merely a member of the ruling party, but is the national chairperson of the ruling party. As such, our Speaker is hardly above party politics and party-political controversy.
To what extent, I ask, does our Speaker represent the wishes of the ruling party within Parliament? Would our Speaker be willing to deliver news from Parliament that her leader does not like? She may not risk beheading, but the ruling party deals harshly with those who fail to toe the party line. I myself am an example of that, ... [Laughter.] ... to the extent that Madiba said, “We have used all sorts of ammunition to destroy him”! That is verbatim.
But in this case the Speaker is one of those who create the party line. We must therefore consider, in principle, whether a Speaker of the National Assembly should resign from the party upon election as a rule.
However, the question before us today is whether removing the current Speaker will resolve the problems that we are experiencing in this House. The IFP believes it will not.
The problems of the anarchy that we are encountering in this House are created by ourselves, as I have explained. The constant disruptions through frivolous points of order, heckling and indiscipline have arisen because some members in this House do not understand or respect the Rules. While the Speaker is mandated to maintain order and see that the Rules are observed, removing the Speaker cannot be the first point of call when Members of Parliament themselves flout the Rules and deliberately disrupt proceedings. [Applause.]
Those of us who respect the dignity of this House should perhaps require more from the Speaker. But so too must we support the Speaker in restoring decorum.
The IFP does not support this motion. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Prince M G BUTHULEZI
|
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, Speaker, Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members, the functioning of Parliament is governed by Rules and convictions and therefore they cannot be changed for political expediency.
As parliamentarians we are here to make the laws that govern the country. We are also here to debate issues, and come up with solutions and resolutions that improve the lives of the people. Our task is to hold the government accountable, detect wastage in the machinery of government and public agencies, and improve efficiency in the economy and effectiveness of government operations.
From the very outset, when the Fifth Parliament began, we found ourselves in a situation where the dignity and the decorum of the House were compromised. The House degenerated into triviality and mockery, as hon members raised unnecessary and spurious points of order that did not assist the House. We saw unnecessary provocation of one member by another.
In this House we have to be robust and use our parliamentary privilege to the maximum in debating issues and making laws that will enhance human dignity and improve the standard of living of our people. We need to challenge one another’s views without fear or favour. However, we also need to respect, uphold, and abide by the Rules of this honourable House and also the standard practice that governs actions, conduct and behaviour in the House.
We do not need a Speaker who will be partisan and inept; we do need a Speaker who will be impartial and firm, and allow constructive debate to flow under the Rules of the House. Presiding officers have to be firm, coherent and consistent in fulfilling their responsibilities and directing the House.
The voters out there must feel proud when they watch the proceedings of the House. All of them across the political divide must feel that they are being well represented. We all have different views, ideologies and philosophies, but we must adhere to the Rules that govern the House.
Once we have set up an ad hoc committee or subcommittee to deliberate on a particular matter, for instance, we must give it space to do just that, and we must interrogate the report.
All organs that should assist the House to function properly must be well synergised and synchronised. Shouting, screaming and hurling unparliamentary words at each other, disturbing one another, and unnecessary interjections do not assist the House to do its work.
The NFP is not of the opinion that the situation is beyond redemption. We can still engage in robust discourse and reach conclusions and resolutions in a spirit of respect, honesty, dignity and consistency. The NFP would encourage the exchange of views and robust communication.
The NFP does not support the vote of no confidence in the Speaker.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
|
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, and hon members of the House, since the official opening of the Fifth Democratic Parliament we have witnessed black boleke-maipatile [hide-and-seek] and make-believe antics, and conduct that is sacrilegious, and derogating and denigrating of the prestige and decorum of this august House.
We have, beyond measure, to painstakingly contend with the irreparable damage that this puerile conduct has caused, not only in diminishing our standing in society as members of this House, but also in tarnishing the image of our beloved country. Must we sit by and watch powerlessly while our institutions are deliberately undermined and unashamedly destabilised? We don’t believe so. Enough is enough.
IsiXhosa:
Mayihlome ihlasele, igwala kulo nina, amasi abekwe elangeni ... “The jig is up,” ... izinja zikhonkotha ehambayo emileyo ziyayichamela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
English:
The ANC rejects the DA’s boys’ club motion of no confidence with the contempt it deserves. The DA and its strange bedfellows, who are gradually becoming its subjects, must never be allowed to attempt to run this country by hook or by crook without a popular mandate. It is the ANC that has that popular mandate and not these counter-revolutionaries. The genesis of this counter-revolutionary seed or forces’ grievance is not the implausible failure of the Speaker to conduct the business of this august House objectively and with decorum; rather there is the infantile disorder the charlatans are hellbent on achieving with alacrity.
The Speaker is not a consultant in this House. She is an elected member of the ANC. [Applause.] She is the chairperson of the ANC. The ANC won majority rule and therefore we don’t apologise. [Applause.] [Interjections.] The ANC has been given a mandate by the majority of our people to govern. We are duty-bound to discharge our historic mission of the total liberation of our people.
What gives these losers and hypocrites the right to question the ANC deployment policy? It is audacity. [Interjections.] The DA wants to lecture us on cadre deployment when they parachuted “Team Harris”, a former DA member of this House, into the City of Cape Town as a so-called economic adviser. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order, hon members. I first recognise the hon Lekota. Why are you rising, sir?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I am rising on a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: It cannot be that when we move a motion in this House, we are defined as “hypocrites”. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: It cannot be parliamentary. It cannot be parliamentary. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Secondly, we cannot be defined as counter-revolutionary when we raise an issue here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: That is not parliamentary. It is not parliamentary. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, would you take your seat please?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: If we are counter-revolutionaries, we shouldn’t be allowed to be in this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member! Would you take your seat please? That is a point for debate; it is not a point of order.
Hon member, you also rose. Why did you rise, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, the speaker is flooding us with ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order? [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: We cannot be called “charlatans”. He is using words that are very inflammatory, Chairperson, calling us “charlatans”. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order, hon members!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, could you please ... [Inaudible.] ... this House, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, take your seat please. Hon Shivambu, take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: [Inaudible.] They must stop harassing us. This is not an ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please. I have not recognised you. Why are you standing? Why are you addressing me?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But why are you ... [Inaudible.] ... disallow him to speak ... [Inaudible.] ... before I even finish ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat. Take your seat, hon member.
Hon member Gardee, I am still listening to what your point of order is. You haven’t articulated the point of order yet.
Mr G A GARDEE: Could you please rule as to whether the word “charlatans” for Members of Parliament is parliamentary. I could also mention “losers” and “hypocrites”. In fact, there is black boleke-maipatile [hide-and-seek], and all the other insults that came in.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you have made your point. Hon member, you have made your point. [Interjections.]
Hon members, I have not heard the hon Minister refer to any specific hon member in the House. It is thus not a point of order; it is a point for debate. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Bringing the DA and EFF together ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Waters, what is your point of order?
Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chair. Chair, the hon Minister referred to members as “hypocrites”. He didn’t refer to a party. In terms of previous rulings, if you call a party “racists” ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. I get your point. I will check the Hansard, hon member, and, if need be, I will revert to the House. [Interjections.] No, no, no. Minister, take your seat please. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order on you ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I have not recognised you, hon Malema. Take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, no. But I am rising on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no. I have not recognised you. Take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair, the point of order is about the Rules.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: I am rising on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat. I have not recognised you. There is another member of your own party behind you who rose ahead of you. [Interjections.] I have not recognised you.
Mr J S MALEMA: But this thing of pointing at us with your finger – what do you call that? Why do you point with your finger? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Hon member, take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: But why do you point at me with your finger?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I have not recognised you.
Mr J S MALEMA: But why do you point at me with your finger?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat. Take your seat.
Hon Buthelezi, I have also not recognised you. I am first going to recognise the hon member at the back, and then I will come back to you. Yes, hon member?
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Chair, it’s not parliamentary, I believe, for the hon Mbalula to call members “hypocrites”. [Interjections.] I want to check with you: Who taught him English, because I last time I checked, he never had matric ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! No, hon member! No, no, no!
Mr N S MATIASE: Who taught him English, because the last time I checked he had never completed his matric.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member!
Mr N S MATIASE: I want to understand why he has the right to call members “hypocrites”, because if I were to check, ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Hon member!
Mr N S MATIASE: ... the last time I checked he was a hypocrite of the worst order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Hon member, take your seat please. Take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon Buthelezi? I will come back to you, hon member. Hon Buthelezi?
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: I just want information, because singing in a choir is the only thing that people can do together. You can’t have people speak at the same time. I only know this as a Zulu. When I joined the regiments sithi uma umuntu egijima, wagijim’ usafika ... [Akuzwakali.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Buthelezi. Order, hon members! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon Minister, take your seat. Hon Minister, take your seat please.
Hon members, I have indicated that as far as my recollection goes the hon member did not refer to any specific member in the House. However, I did indicate that I would ask the Table staff to check the Hansard and, if need be, I will come back to make a ruling in that regard.
Let us continue with this debate. Even if you disagree politically with what the member is saying, it’s a political debate. Your party will have an opportunity to respond, but let us not simply disrupt the speaker by raising frivolous points of order. Hon Malema?
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair, it is not only hypocrisy, but “charlatans” and “losers”. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: All those things you must check. I say this because you can’t be here, hon Mbalula, if you don’t know and if you have not won a seat. There be can’t be a loser here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema! Hon Malema, your point is noted. Hon member, it’s noted. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Bringing the DA and EFF together is ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what point are you rising on now?
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, the point of order is that presiding officer after presiding officer after presiding officer ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: Every day when we confront issues like this, we are told, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: “We will come back,” and they have never come back with any ruling on words like “charlatan”.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr G A GARDEE: Can we also be given a timeframe for your coming back?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please. Thank you. Continue, hon Minister. Hon Deputy Minister, I want this debate to continue, so I am not going to give you an opportunity to address the House now.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Bringing the DA and the EFF together is a dangerous experiment, not to be tried at home. [Interjections.] The DA and EFF together is like mixing oil with water. [Interjections.] What a monumental disaster. This is the mother of all contradictions in terms of modern democracy. The South African citizenry are not amused. Members are not astonished. The world is not flabbergasted. The DA is a right-wing neoliberal party, a party whose actions resemble fascism and a party that is rooted in the shameful colonial history of our country. [Interjections.] In postapartheid South Africa, there has never been ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, would you take your seat please? Yes, hon member.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I put it to you that the hon Minister referred to the DA and its members as “fascists”, and I would like you to ask the hon Minister to withdraw that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, would you withdraw the remark please?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I didn’t say that. I said ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister ... [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon Minister, would you withdraw the remark please?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: A party whose actions ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, would you withdraw the remark please?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I withdraw it, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: In postapartheid South Africa, there has never been a more poignant moment of the
reincarnation of the ghost of apartheid other than the moment when Premier Helen Zille called the people of South Africa refugees in their own country. Sadly, she said this about the majority of our people who constitute 84% of the total population.
Lately the party has been on a shopping spree to find a token black who will not threaten the fundamentals of the party – a party established to protect white minority privilege. It has found one such black in the dusty streets of Soweto ... [Laughter.] ... and he is still trying to figure out why he is here when decisions about him are made elsewhere. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, please take your seat. Yes, hon member? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Hon members, I won’t be able to hear what the hon member is saying if you continue interjecting. Yes, hon member?
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the Minister referred to hon Maimane as a “token” ... [Interjections.] ... and I put it to you that it is unparliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. Hon Minister, when you made the statement, were you referring to any member in the House?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: No. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I couldn’t hear you. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
An HON MEMBER: Who are you talking about?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, were you referring to any particular member of this House? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: No. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue hon Minister. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order!
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: The EFF is a conglomeration of ill-disciplined and disgruntled self-serving demagogues ...
Ms S V KALYAN: Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, there’s another point of order.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: ... who think they are larger than our movement. [Interjections.]
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Sit down!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member De Freitas! You have no right to shout at the speaker who is at the podium to sit down. You are out of order! Hon Kalyan, what is your point of order?
Ms S V KALYAN: House Chair, the point of order is that you asked the Minister whether he had referred to a member in this House?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You heard me correctly, yes.
Ms S V KALYAN: Right, and the Minister replied in the negative. He misled this House by being very economical with the truth.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are you answering on behalf of the Minister now, hon member?
Ms S V KALYAN: He was being economical with the truth ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please.
Ms S V KALYAN: ... and I request that you ask him to withdraw his remark. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please. Continue hon Minister.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, may I address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, may I remind you that while points of order are allowed in the House, they cannot be used to disrupt the speaker at the podium. What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: A point of order by definition does disrupt.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! Don’t define to me what a point of order is!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I was defining ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, raise your point of order or sit down!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am raising my point of order, Chair. Is it ministerial or parliamentary ... [Interjections.] ... to refer to people who are members of this House as “ill-disciplined”?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat! That is not a point of order.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, can you rule on that please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I think it is ... [Inaudible.] ... for a member of the House to come here ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... and call us “ill-disciplined”.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat! Continue hon Minister.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, can you rule whether “ill-disciplined” is ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: So I must sit down when I’m being called “ill-disciplined”?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Hon member, the point you are putting is not a point of order! [Interjections.] Take your seat!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Some people ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, for the last time, for the last time, take your seat!
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: The poor may be presented as the motive force for the EFF, but in truth the character of its leadership is of disgruntled youth looking for shortcuts to social mobility and success in our society. None of its leaders has stood the test of time; none of them is experienced; and none of them has a history of struggle and selflessness. [Applause.] [Interjections.] The EFF has one courage that will never be acceptable in the ANC.
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Chair, I wish to put a point of order please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You are rising together with a member of the DA, so which one of you ... [Interjections.]
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: It doesn’t matter, but I am rising on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Which one of you wants to put the point of order?
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: It doesn’t matter, but I am rising on a point of order. You are chairing, so don’t ask us questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): All right, hon members, I will say this to both of you. The hon Singh had his hand up first, so I am going to recognise the hon Singh.
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: We are not ... No, no!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I am presiding over this session and you are not going to tell me how I should recognise hon members! Both of you will sit down until you are recognised! Thank you. Hon Singh?
Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Chairperson. I rise in terms of Rule 49, which is exactly what you have referred to. It reads as follows:
Whenever the presiding officer rises during a debate, any member then speaking or offering to speak shall resume his or her seat, and the presiding officer shall be heard without interruption.
But we cannot hear you without interruption, hon Chairperson, and I ask you to rule on that. Are we going to allow this House to degenerate into what it is at the moment?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Singh. We will ... [Interjections.] I have not recognised you, hon member. Take your seat until I recognise you.
We would really like to call on hon members to observe the Rules of the House, and in this instance the one that has been articulated by the hon Singh. Let us proceed with this debate. Yes, there may be things that will be said from the podium that you may not agree with politically, but that doesn’t mean that they are unparliamentary and out of order. They are points for debate.
Hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Thank you, Chair. I am just saying that whatever a speaker like the hon Minister says must be factual. He is referring to the EFF leadership as youth, while I am not a youth. He must be factual ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I think the hon Minister will take note of the fact that you are not a youth.
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Even our struggle credentials can be compared. I am not a youth.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, yes. The hon Minister will take note that you are not a youth, hon member. Hon Minister, I will recognise you when the time arrives.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, you are a former UDM and NP member. I want to check whether that oil and water mixture ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you are out of order! You are completely out of order! [Applause.] Hon member, may I also state for the record that, although you were part of the NP, I have never been part of the NP, so you are suffering from an identity crisis.
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, I have a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat!
Mr J S MALEMA: No, I have a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, no, no!
Mr J S MALEMA: You are abusing the process! I have a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat! Take your seat! Take your seat! Hon Minister, proceed please. [Interjections.] Hon members, you are now disrupting the debate! You are disrupting the debate! Hon Malema, what is your point of order?
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair, you are abusing this process because you are taking advantage of being the Chair by responding here to speakers’ issues. [Interjections.] All of us, when we are accused, are going to stand up and respond, taking precedence from you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat please! Take your seat please! Thank you. Thank you. There’s another member of the EFF who wants to put a point of order. What is your point of order?
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Thank you, Chair. It’s a point of order with regard to what the Minister said. Without going into the issue of Beyoncé, I want to raise ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! Take your seat please. That’s not a point of order.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: It’s a serious point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that’s not a point of order. Take your seat!
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: The Minister is misleading the House ....
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat!
Mr J A MNGXITAMA ... [Inaudible.] ... of the leadership of the EFF.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, for the last time, take your seat! Take your seat!
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson, may I address you on the Rules? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Hon member, I will have that discussion with you at some other time, but I want the hon Minister now to complete his speech. Continue hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: The EFF has one courage that in the ANC will never be acceptable, and that is to lie to our people without a blink of an eye. They say what they know some of our people want to hear. They can afford to do this because they themselves do not believe any of the things they say, nor do they intend to take any responsibility for any of the promises they make. They tell lies and claim easy victories. The EFF is a factory fault of the huge movement that the ANC is, ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, can the Minister take a question?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: ... where some of our members are left out or left behind in our political education programme.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, are you prepared to take a question from the hon Malema?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I don’t have time. Next time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): He doesn’t have time. Continue hon Minister. Hon Malema, take your seat! [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: It’s a very important question. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat!
Mr J S MALEMA: Okay.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: The EFF describes its ideology as a concocted mixture of Marxism, Leninism and Fanonism, without any detailed elaboration. [Interjections.] Coincidentally, it was Frantz Fanon himself who said, “The oppressed will always believe the worst about themselves.” I believe him. Hogwash of Marxism, Leninism and so-called Fanonism is the worst ideology to imagine in the 21st century. [Interjections.]
Somewhere we are told that the EFF is a vanguard, then socialist, and somehow part of the protest movement. This is confusing, if not confused. It was Lenin, in the Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder, who warned us that the threat to any revolution was not only from the counter-revolution of the likes of the not so democratic Democratic Alliance ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, take your seat. What is your point of order now, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The rules of engagement ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Which Rule are you referring to?
Mr G A GARDEE: It’s the rule on the topic of ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the Rule number, hon member? [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Ah, you see, that is the partisanship we are talking about, ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I am asking you so that I can assist you.
Mr G A GARDEE: ... to break the motion of no confidence in the Speaker, because you have not asked anybody what the Rule number is ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order is that the speaker on the podium is no longer debating the motion ... [Inaudible.] ... but he is debating the EFF. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! Take your seat! Hon member, take your seat! Take your seat! Continue hon Minister. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Except for empty slogans and sound bites, there is nothing of substance that makes the EFF revolutionary.
An HON MEMBER: Just like you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: If the EFF is not revolutionary, then what are they? Are they what Karl Marx described as the lumpenproletariat? This is what Karl Marx said about the lumpenproletariat:
Alongside decayed roués with dubious means of subsistence and of dubious origin, alongside ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie, were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mountebanks, lazzaroni, pickpockets ... [Laughter.] [Applause.] ... tricksters, gamblers, ... [pimps], brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars – in short, the whole indefinite, disintegrated mass, thrown hither and thither, which the French call la bohème.
[Laughter.] Let the people be the judge. The truth speaks for itself.
Since their election to Parliament the EFF’s conduct has been bordering on hooliganism, being disruptive with the clear intention of rendering this Parliament unworkable and ungovernable. This is their strategy because they have nothing constructive to offer. In every sitting of Parliament and the provincial legislatures they have abused presiding officers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, there is another point of order. What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: The Minister is misleading this House with regard to Lenin. He is misrepresenting Lenin and lying about Lenin on the text that ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! Hon member, let us allow the writings of Lenin to speak for themselves. Continue hon Minister. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: One thing I was taught, not by Karl Marx or Frantz Fanon, but by my own African upbringing and socialisation, is that to be rude and disrespectful has nothing to do with being revolutionary. Also, to be dressed in red garments does not make one a working-class hero or, for that matter, a revolutionary. [Applause.] I leave it to Karl Marx to define what the EFF could be.
One thing I know for a fact is that its political programme of economic freedom in our lifetime was stolen from the ANC Youth League. [Applause.] The difference between them and the ANC Youth League is that the context for the ANC Youth League is the National Democratic Revolution, while the EFF is clothed in empty rhetoric and political hot air.
We know that the FF Plus wants a volkstaat – the party lives in the past with its verkrampte boere agenda. Cope is but an abandoned ship manned by a lone leader ... [Laughter.] ... whose only dream is to return to his political home from which he divorced himself. Terror Lekota has just a monstrous personal ego ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Order! Hon Carter?
Ms D CARTER: Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon Minister to refer to the hon Lekota as Terror Lekota? [Interjections.] I think he needs to withdraw that reference because it is unparliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister? Where is the hon Minister now? Hon Minister, will you refer to the hon Lekota as the hon Lekota?
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Terror Lekota.
Dr B H HOLOMISA
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION
|
Dr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, Speaker and hon members, the UDM endorses the motion of no confidence in the current Speaker on grounds already presented in this House. [Applause.]
Before she was elected to office, the Speaker was on record as distorting and attacking the outcomes of the Public Protector’s investigations on Nkandla. This distortion and attack has since been sustained by the organisation she presides over as its national chairperson. In this regard, her objectivity on the work of the parliamentary committee considering this matter is highly questionable and may compromise the independence of this House.
Irrespective of the outcome of this process today, there is a great and urgent need to evaluate whether Parliament has been discharging its mandate over the last 20 years in accordance with the principles of inclusive participatory democracy and, where so required, makes such necessary changes as to give effect to a democratically managed people’s Parliament.
Accordingly, the UDM will write to the Ethics Committee of this House to cause the current Speaker to explain her alleged involvement and role in the Gold Fields saga. [Interjections.]
In the same vein, we will seek to get clarity on whether the current Speaker is remunerated in accordance with the package she got when she resigned as the Deputy President of the Republic or whether, in addition to the package granted, she further enjoys a Speaker’s package.
IsiXhosa:
Okokugqibela, Mnu Sekela Mongameli, ndiyavuya ngokuba ukhona apha endlwini.
English:
You will recall ...
IsiXhosa:
... ukuba bendikhe ndakucela ukuba ukhe ubize intlanganiso yeenkokheli. Ezinye zezinto ezivelayo apha ngenxa yoku kujongana ngezikhondo zamehlo zifunisa ukuba usebenzise i-ofisi yakho ukujongana nazo. Yena uBaleka ... yena uSomlomo uBaleka Mbete kufuneka ahambe nokuba niyathanda okanye anithandi. Uza kuhamba. [Uwele-wele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it correct to say, “yena uBaleka Mbete”, just like that, “yena uSpeaker uBaleka Mbete”? Is it sufficient to refer to her like that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Buthelezi, indeed you are correct. We would request hon members to refer to the hon Speaker as “hon”. Hon Holomisa.
Dr B H HOLOMISA: I have since addressed that issue because I corrected it.
IsiXhosa:
Inoba khange eve. Ndithe “ohloniphekileyo”. [Uwele-wele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick) : Hon ...
Dr B H HOLOMISA: Go to the records and bring the ruling tomorrow. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No. Hon members! Hon members! Order! Let us continue to refer to one other as “hon” members instead of reverting to other names that you may be aware of. In this House there is the hon Speaker Baleka Mbete and we would like the hon members to refer to her in that way.
IsiXhosa:
UGqr B H HOLOMISA: Sihlalo, ndiqale ndathi “Baleka Mbete” ndaphinda ndayilungisa loo nto. Ndithi yiya kwiHansard ubuye nesigqibo ngomso. [Uwele-wele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Holomisa, I will check the Hansard indeed and we will get back to it, but let us maintain the discipline that there is supposed to be in the House. It is in all our interests to do so. I have not recognised you, hon Holomisa. I don’t know why you are standing. Why are you rising, sir?
IsiXhosa:
UGqr B H HOLOMISA: Le nto uyithethayo ichaza ukuba asiwuthobeli umthetho. Ndithi ndiyilungisile le nto. Sowusikhuphile isigqibo, sukuphinda unike elinye icebiso ke ngoku. [Uwele-wele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I will come back to the House, but I want to repeat what I have said, that we should continue to refer to one another as hon members. When we refer to the hon Speaker, we should call her just that, the “hon” Speaker.
Dr P W A MULDER
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
|
Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Chairman, this is an unusual motion, and the question is: Why now? It is because we in the opposition have experienced that with every new Parliament the Speaker position has become less nonpartisan. Section 42(3) of the Constitution reads as follows:
The National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people ...
The hon Speaker is the head of the National Assembly, representing all the people, not only 6 out of 10. There are also the other 4 out of 10. The people are not only ANC people.
The word “Speaker” and the position have been taken from the British system. When members of the British parliament elect a Speaker, the candidate must be nominated by at least 12 members of parliament, of whom at least three must be from a different party to that of the candidate. Therefore, at the election of the Speaker the nonpartisan role is already emphasised.
In South Africa we had something of this when, in 1994, the Deputy Speaker in the First Parliament, Dr Ranchod, was not from the governing ANC party. In the Second and Third Parliaments we had chairpersons from other political parties. I think of Ben Skosana and Farouk Cassim from the IFP, and Sandra Botha from the DA, as examples. In this Fifth Parliament all of the Speaker and chairperson positions have, for the first time, been taken by the ANC. [Interjections.]
When a British Speaker is elected, the new Speaker resigns from his or her political party and remains impartial to political issues, even in retirement. Interestingly enough, if at election time the Speaker seeks re-election in Britain, he or she stands for re-election not as a member of a political party, but as Speaker.
In South Africa our hon Speaker is also chairperson of the ANC. She has not resigned from this very senior ANC position. This means that every Monday she attends the ANC top six meeting at Luthuli House, ... [Interjections.] ... where strategy and propaganda against the opposition are discussed. It makes her position as hon Speaker impossible in making rulings, which may also be against ANC members, in this House.
Afrikaans:
In die ANC se mosie verlede week ten gunste van die Speaker, het hulle al haar prestasies as ’n ANC lid opgenoem. Dit is indrukwekkend, en dit verklaar waarom sy Adjunkpresident was en waarom sy tans ANC voorsitter is. Maar, dit is ook presies die rede waarom sy moeilik as ’n onverbonde en objektiewe Speaker gesien kan word. Ons het iemand anders nodig.
In Suid-Afrika, byvoorbeeld voor 1994, het die Speaker hom of haar los van sy of haar party na die verkiesing gemaak. U kan gerus van Mev Helen Suzman lees oor hoeveel lof sy van Henning Klopper as Speaker praat, en hoe hy haar geleentheid gegee het om haar rol te kon speel.
Die VF Plus glo dat dit nou die tyd is dat hierdie Parlement ’n standpunt moet inneem oor hoe ons die rol van die Speaker vorentoe sien – meer polities verbonde of minder polities verbonde. Dit is veral belangrik in ’n tyd soos hierdie, waar die Parlement sake soos die Nkandla verslae, die Openbare Beskermer verslae en die President se posisie, deursigtig moet kan bespreek. Daarom moet ons duidelikheid hieroor kry. Die VF Plus sal saam ten gunste van die mosie stem. Ek dank u. [Applous.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Dr P W A MULDER
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Mr M G P LEKOTA: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President and hon members of the House, the debate this afternoon with regard to the substance of this motion before us, is not about whether the Speaker is a lady or not. That question is irrelevant. We are not debating that issue. It is also not whether she is an African, coloured or Indian person. That is also not the issue. Instead, the question before this House is whether the current Speaker is performing her functions to the satisfaction of at least the vast majority of us. [Interjections.] That is the central issue. [Interjections.]
The test for the Speaker position is first and foremost impartiality; secondly, it is the mastery of the Rules and regulations; and, thirdly, it is important that the person who is the Speaker enjoys the confidence and trust of the people. That is the test we are applying. It is not helpful to talk about other issues.
The fact that the Speaker occupies a very high position in the ruling party raises a question, especially against the backdrop of the decisions that she makes in this House. Whenever she makes a ruling and whenever members of the ruling party can ... [Interjections.] You see, we have a minority in the opposition and the loudest noise ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: ... will come from the ranks of the ruling party.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Lekota.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I have been talking to this issue.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Lekota.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Every time we speak, there will be points of order from the majority party.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Lekota, will you please take your seat so that I can take the point of order? Yes, hon Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the hon Lekota was the national chairperson of the ANC and a chairperson of the NCOP.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order, hon Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Can he answer a question? [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: That history is known. That history is ... [Inaudible.] ... , so it’s nothing new.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): That is not a point of order, hon member. Continue hon Lekota.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: The issue here is whether there is impartiality in carrying out the functions of the office.
Many members of the ANC will bear witness as to how many times, when I was a presiding officer in the National Council of Provinces, I called Cabinet colleagues, Cabinet members here, to come and account. At some point I was threatened by some of them, but President Mandela stood by me and said that that was correct – if you were a Minister, you had to come and answer questions when you were required to do so. [Interjections.] [Applause.] I was never not impartial with regard to this question, but I understood what the office entailed.
It is really important that South Africans must consider whether we should not, and there are many of us ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: The Speaker can be the chairperson of her party or she can resign and occupy this position. There will be many others who will be willing to be chairperson of the party. [Interjections.] It then frees her to be able to do her work impartially and not to abuse power like this and have people fighting and attacking the Public Protector while she is occupying this position. You come and occupy this position. You are not supposed to ... [Interjections.] You have to prevail. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
Mr M G P LEKOTA
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Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, Deputy President ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Rev K R J MESHOE: ... while we do not condone the disruptive behaviour of certain members in this House, I rise on behalf of the ACDP to support the motion of no confidence in the Speaker of the National Assembly. [Applause.]
If there had been sufficient time, the ACDP would have moved an amendment to the motion before us, so that it was a motion of no confidence in both the Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
We would like to state that we are not targeting the character of any particular person, but rather that we are addressing what we perceive to be a failure by our two most senior presiding officers to diligently apply the Rules when expected to do so.
The current situation in the National Assembly is marred by a lack of decorum and respect, with high levels of disruption caused by ill discipline and the fact that members often rise and start speaking without having been recognised by the presiding officer. In this regard, the presiding officers’ inability to maintain order, discipline and dignity during proceedings is totally unacceptable.
We cannot continue to see disorder and unruly behaviour mar the image of this august House in the eyes, not only of the South Africans whom we are here to represent, but also of the greater international community. We need to consider what people out there are thinking and saying when they see us engaging one another in this House.
It is imperative that a Speaker in the National Assembly be both firm and fair, but more importantly, have the courage of his or her convictions to follow through on rulings made. Where challenges to those rulings arise, they should be speedily addressed and corrected if necessary, or suitable consequences of the flouting of the Rules must follow.
Unfortunately, the Speaker has allowed herself to get into unnecessary deliberations, when she was expected to apply the Rules. At times she has even undermined her own rulings by allowing disagreements to be voiced, to the detriment of the proceedings of the House. There are other channels for such disagreements to be aired, and it should not be done in the House.
On the issue of whether or not it is advisable for the Speaker in the National Assembly to hold a high party office, the ACDP says that because of inevitable conflicts of interest that will arise, we would urge Parliament to seriously consider and adopt the position that the Speaker in the National Assembly should not hold a senior position in any political party. When that happens ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M P GALO
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Rev K R J MESHOE
Mr M P GALO: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M P GALO: The AIC is of the view that political parties represented in this so-called Parliament should focus on major issues that are facing our country, and not on issues of no significance, like the passing of a vote of no confidence in an individual, knowing very well that this individual can be politically manipulated by ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Galo, please take your seat. Yes, hon member?
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Chairperson, is it not bringing the image of Parliament into disrepute when a member calls this Parliament “so-called”?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Galo, I heard you make that comment. Will you please withdraw it?
Mr M P GALO: Chair, I withdraw it. Thank you very much.
The major issues we are facing as a country are as follows: a leadership crisis in the high echelons of the state, and political corruption and cheating, as well as moral degeneration in our society, to name but a few.
Taking the above-mentioned issues into account, if you are honest enough, you will agree with the AIC that we do not have a Parliament here, but what we have is a project of Luthuli House. I include provincial legislatures and local municipalities in this. [Interjections.] I can cite many examples to illustrate why we as the AIC are saying this.
The AIC believes that the only remedy that can save South Africa from this crisis is to change the electoral system in this country, a system ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Give the member a fair chance to deliver his speech.
Mr M P GALO: ... that will allow two rounds of elections – the presidential election ... [Interjections.] ... and the election of ... [Inaudible.] ... representatives. In the presidential election ... [Interjections.] ... independent candidates ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M P GALO: ... should be allowed to run for the office of the presidency. They should be highly qualified people and when elected to the high office of President of the country, they must resign from party politics. Even the Speaker of the National Assembly must not be involved in party politics. That is how this constitutional democracy will benefit the people of this country, and not the political leaders.
In conclusion, the AIC is not convinced that the tabled motion of no confidence in the Speaker of the National Assembly, and her possible removal, will bring about a change in the crisis facing our country. Therefore, the motion is not supported. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE
Mr M P GALO
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Ms B P MABE: Chair, I wish to say the following to the AIC. You have no experience, you have never been in government and you are not fundis in this game. So you have nothing to tell us, because you know nothing about government.
Democratic processes can make you very bitter and as a result you can behave like hon Lekota is doing now. At the time when he was the chairperson of the ANC and also the Chairperson of the NCOP, this was okay because it suited him. We did not object; instead we supported him. Today because it’s a woman who is a leader, who is the Speaker of the House and who is also the chairperson of the ANC, he sees it as something wrong. [Applause.]
Today’s motion is a direct attack on the ANC - the leader of the revolution in South Africa, with footprints in Africa and the world. Today the DA is demanding that the hon Baleka Mbete should be condemned for being a cadre of the ANC, because this makes her partial in discharging her responsibilities. We reject this idea with the contempt that it deserves. What we are saying is that the ANC will never disown its own because of irrelevant parties like the DA, which seek attention by misleading unprincipled and ideologically bankrupt forces with its agenda of negative liberalism. [Applause.]
The DA claims that the Speaker is unable to control the disruption by the EFF – which is what they also support, together with the other angry lot who claim to be presidents when they have never been elected by the people.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, I have a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Who is rising now? Yes, hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, the hon member should be informed enough to know that saying ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, what is the point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, the hon member at the podium should know, since she has been here for so long, that it is not parliamentary to call people a “lot”. I expect the Chair to have heard that and to guide the House accordingly.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I certainly did not hear it in the way that you are interpreting it, but I will still check the Hansard. If need be, I will come back to make a ruling in that regard. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... can we please take you through a process on how you should chair the proceedings?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You must check ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You must check ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... with the hon member if she did say that and, if she admits that she said that, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... then ask her to withdraw it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, don’t postpone such matters every time. You have been postponing everything else ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... for the next day. Every time you chair, you postpone things.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: And you don’t come back to us.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, check with her if she did say that and, if indeed she did, then she must withdraw that. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu take your seat now! I have noted what you have said, hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please learn how to chair properly. Please. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, you are not here to ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Because we are going to ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, take your seat now! Continue, hon member.
Ms B P MABE: They cause disruption by throwing in spurious... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: Floyd has just called for order here ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Who are you referring to?
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, hon Floyd has just called for order, saying that the best option is to ask the speaker so that we ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, can you please ask her if she did say that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... and if she did, then ask her to withdraw it so that we can move forward.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat. Take your seat. I have said that I will check the Hansard and come back to you. Continue, hon member.
Ms B P MABE: Hon Malema, I think you must be told today ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Address the Chair, hon member. Don’t address the member.
Ms B P MABE: I think you must be told today that what you are doing ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: ... is nothing but a shame to yourself. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon ... [Interjections.] Order!
Mr G A GARDEE: Chair, can’t you see the misbehaving member here?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order, hon members!
Ms B P MABE: You promised people economic freedom. Is this the economic freedom that you are going to give to the people?
Mr G A GARDEE: Yes, man! Order! The Chairperson says you must keep quiet but you keep on talking ...
Ms B P MABE: I think you must be told!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe! Hon Mabe!
Ms B P MABE: [Inaudible.] You reduce this House to nothing. You must be told today. Nx!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe, take your seat please!
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe, take your seat please!
Mr G A GARDEE: She is out of order. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: Okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat! Take your seat! Take your seat! Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Order, hon members! It’s inevitable that you ... [Interjections.] Hon Malema, take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: Has she lost her mind? [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat!
Mr J S MALEMA: Is she sick?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Uyadelela wena!
English:
Mr J S MALEMA: This is not a mental hospital, man!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, for the last time, take your seat!
Mr J S MALEMA: This is the National Assembly.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat! Take your seat! Hon Malema, I want to remind you that you may not just get up and address me as the Chairperson while I am busy with a ruling. There are Rules in this House. [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: Malema must be told ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe! Hon Mabe, may I also remind you that you are supposed to address the Chairperson, and not point at individual members in the House when making your input. Will you continue with your speech please and address the Chairperson. Thank you.
Ms B P MABE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon Malema, you must be told today that you are nothing! [Interjections.]
Ms M S KHAWULA: Order! Order, honourable!
Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Chairperson!
Ms B P MABE: You are a shame to your family ...
Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Chair! Oh!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!
Ms B P MABE: ... and to the people that voted for you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, members! Hon Mabe, take your seat. Order, hon members! I am not recognising you, hon member, as there is another member behind you.
Mr G A GARDEE: Yes, I ...
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Ngifuna ukukhuluma!
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, hon member! I am not recognising you, as there is another member behind you.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Okay!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Decide who must be recognised. [Interjections.] Yes, hon member.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, sinenkinga lana. Uma sikhuluma ngesiZulu, asikhulume ngesiZulu. Sikhathele ... [Ubuwelewele.] Ngicela ungiyeke wena. Sikhathele ukuthi lana nisitshele imithetho, nibuye niyishintshe futhi. Kuyimanje - ngabuza ngelinye ilanga ukuthi kanti yini enifuna siyifunde? Kuyimanje umhlonishwa ... [Ubuwelewele]
English:
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Order, Chair.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Yini le ayenzayo? Ukhomba Umkhuzi wethu Ophezulu, CIC. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Thank you. Take your seat now.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Isemthethweni lento ayenzayo? [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat now.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Uma kuwumuntu we-ANC ...
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Ms M S KHAWULA: ... she is right.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat now! Take your seat now. Hon Mabe, may I remind you of what I indicated to you earlier on? You must address the Chairperson and stick to your speech. Stick to your speech please. Continue, hon member.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, are you going to recognise me?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! Take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, please, recognise me before ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. There is another member there behind you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: [Inaudible.] ... issue.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, take you seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, but please recog ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat! Yes, hon member.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Thanks, Chair. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, I think it’s in the best interests of the House ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! What is the point of order!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Yes, I am rising on a point, and I want to talk to it, Chair. Please allow me to address you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, no problem. The hon member at the podium has referred to the hon Malema as “nothing”.
Ms B P MABE: He is nothing. [Inaudible.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, I think you must at least restore the right of members not to be insulted in the House. The hon member must be asked to withdraw the remark with immediate effect. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe, you referred to another member as “nothing”. Will you withdraw that remark please?
Ms B P MABE: Chair, I withdraw it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Now you continue, you focus on your speech, and you refer to the Chairperson and not to individual members in the House, hon member.
Ms B P MABE: They cause disruption by throwing in spurious points of order, and when the Speaker applies the Rules, they undermine her rulings and cause chaos in the House. They then use the very situation that they have created to move a vote of no confidence in the Speaker.
Hon Maimane must always remember, as he tries so hard to justify his existence and acceptance in a white-male-dominated party ... [Interjections] ... by undermining the good that the ANC has done for him, that it is through the impartiality advocated by the ANC that he got the exposure to speak and behave like a parrot. It is the ANC that gave him an opportunity to attend the best schools ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please!
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the speaker referred to hon Maimane as a “parrot” and I suggest that it is unparliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe, will you withdraw that statement please?
Ms B P MABE: Chair, in my language they call it ...
Setswana:
... podipodi, ...
English:
... but I apologise.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you withdraw the remark unconditionally please!
Ms B P MABE: I withdraw it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: Chair, it is the ANC that gave him an ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Ms B P MABE: ... opportunity to attend the best schools and learn the Queen’s English so well that he has ended up succeeding in the very difficult job interview for this rent-a-black job. [Laughter.] It is not surprising today, and it has always been like this, that the argument of some opposition parties is that ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe! Hon Mabe, will you take your seat?
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I put it to you that it is racist for the hon speaker to suggest that the hon Maimane was “rented” because he is “black”. [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe! Hon Mabe, will you withdraw that remark please? [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: Chair, I also take exception ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe!
Ms B P MABE: They cannot call me a racist! I am not a racist!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order!
Ms B P MABE: They must also withdraw their calling me a racist.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, no! Hon Mabe, will you withdraw the remark please?
Ms B P MABE: I withdraw it, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
Ms B P MABE: Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Ms B P MABE: Chair, it is the ANC that gave him an opportunity to attend the best schools and learn the Queen’s English so well that he ended up succeeding in the very difficult job interview for this rent-a-black job. It is not surprising today and ... [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, you have just asked the speaker to withdraw a certain comment ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe!
Mr M WATERS: ... and she has repeated it. She is making ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. Hon Mabe, will you withdraw the remark that refers to another hon member of the House as having a “rent-a-black job”.
Ms B P MABE: I withdraw it. I withdraw it, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms B P MABE: Hon Chair, the minority parties are given an opportunity to participate and are treated as equals, but they mustn’t wish to manipulate and achieve on the floor of the Assembly what they were unsuccessful in achieving at the ballot box. [Applause.]
The ANC has never, on any single day, used its majority to stifle and undermine the democratic processes in this House. [Interjections.] The ANC has never called for a division on any matter, unlike the opposition, which calls for a division even when we have to adopt a budget that seeks to promote and address the basic needs of the people. [Applause.]
It is shocking that all of a sudden impartiality and independence in South Africa mean being anti-ANC. It is the ANC that, through blood and sweat, ushered in democracy in South Africa, out of the shackles of the oppressive state of apartheid colonialism. In the ANC, impartiality resides in the Freedom Charter.
As for you, Comrade Baleka Mbete, you are a product of the Freedom Charter, and it is laughable for any person to accuse you of not being impartial. I am confident that you have a full understanding of the fact that the impartiality of the Speaker is one of the prime values in terms of which the integrity of the SA Parliament is measured. [Applause.] You have done very well in your responsibility of being a custodian of this integrity. It is for this reason that the ANC – collectively with the majority of other political parties – elected you to be the Speaker of this Parliament. [Interjections.]
Hon Maimane, rest assured that the ANC upholds the Constitution. Your party is safe under the leadership of the ANC. [Laughter.] What we know for sure is that they are going to dump you! They are going to dump you like they did with the other “rented blacks”, the likes of Mr Swathe and Ms Mazibuko. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes. Order, hon members.
Ms B P MABE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order! Order, hon members! Hon members, I won’t be able to hear the hon member who is raising a point of order if you continue with such levels of noise.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, can I have silence please? Thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, the speaker said that the DA will dump the hon Maimane ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Mr M WATERS: ... like we dumped other “rent-a-blacks”. That casts aspersions on the hon Maimane as being a “rent-a-black” and it also casts an aspersion of racism. I therefore ask you to request the speaker to withdraw the remark, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mabe, will you withdraw the remark and stop referring to members in that way please?
Ms B P MABE: I withdraw it, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
Ms B P MABE: Chairperson, I am told that, apart from being a politician, hon Maimane is also a priest - a pastor of a church.
Setswana:
Ga o le moruti o ithute botshepegi rra.
English:
Ms B P MABE: As a pastor, you must be careful not to fall into the trap of being abused by a political party, just like one of the prominent priests who, when his eyes were opened, realised that he was being abused by Cope. [Applause.] You had better jump off this ship of misery while there is still time.
Setswana:
Tlogela go nna moruti wa tsotsi, Ntate Modimo ga a rate. [Applause.]
English:
Bloody bastard! [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Order, hon members! Order!
Mr M WATERS: Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon Kalyan.
Mr M WATERS: Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, according to the interpretation, the hon speaker who has just left the podium said that hon Maimane must not be a preacher who is not truthful. That’s casting aspersions, once more, on the integrity of the hon Maimane. I ask you to rule on that and ask her to withdraw it. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, since you are referring to an interpretation, let me say that I also struggled. I continuously call on the hon members in the House to keep the noise levels down, but it was virtually impossible for me to hear what the interpretation was. I will thus have to check and, if need be, come back to the House to make a ruling in that regard.
Hon Kalyan, are you rising on the same point of order? What is the point of order you are rising on?
Ms S V KALYAN: Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Ms S V KALYAN: ... the interpretation also said that the hon Maimane is a “trickster”. May I ask you to refer to the Hansard and come back to the House in regard to whether the use of the word is parliamentary or not. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): It’s part of the same ruling.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of information: Is it not possible for the entire speech of the hon Mabe to be withdrawn and there be no speech?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, you are out of order.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair, ... [Interjections.] Shh!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! You must speak. [Laughter.] You can’t make those noises from the podium. Continue with your speech.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Sorry, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the member at the podium has the desire to be listened to in silence. Let’s hear what he has to say.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Agang condemns the motion of no confidence in the Speaker, Baleka Mbete. Opposition parties supporting this motion are exposing themselves as parties lacking the ability to offer South Africans a meaningful alternative to the ANC, ... [Applause.] ... and have therefore had to resort to meaningless acts of disruptive politics. The motion is a waste of time. The ANC that will only steamroller it with its majority in the House. It has been said to Agang that other parties are jumping on the EFF bandwagon of disruptive politics. In the unlikely event that the Speaker is removed, she will only be replaced by another ANC comrade, with the same instructions from the ANC caucus. [Interjections.]
The DA in particular is very inconsistent in this regard, as it was the official opposition in Parliament during a previous term of Parliament when hon Mbete was a Speaker, and it accepted her as such then. Her level of bias now is the same as it was then.
Agang is not interested in settling personal vendettas of individual politicians at the expense of mature and responsible political engagement. [Applause.] Parties in Parliament should focus on the interests of the masses, not on petty politics. We should therefore ensure that the integrity of our constitutional institutions is protected through meaningful engagement.
I would like to say that the Speaker of Parliament is not the Presiding Officer now, but we still have disorder. I want to emphasise that it is very clear that to be a Presiding Officer in this Fifth Parliament is a very dangerous job. I also want to emphasise that even if you remove the Speaker of Parliament, whoever is going to replace her is going to be a victim.
Lastly, the induction that we had at the beginning of our term of office was not enough for Members of Parliament. I propose that in future when we have the induction, we should also invite psychiatrists. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, just to start, I would like to say how great it is to see so many ANC members in the House today. I think it is a new record. [Applause.] Wouldn’t it be nice if we had them in the House when we are discussing the issues that matter most to south Africans, like the economy and jobs? The benches are empty when we are discussing those.
Let me be very clear, there is a golden thread that runs through every single speech today. If we cut through the chafing and the racial invective from this side of the House, it is very clear. There is a fundamental conflict of interest that occurs here in Parliament with the Speaker, hon Baleka Mbete, continuing to occupy the position of chairperson of her party and Speaker of this House. [Interjections.]
Now it is important that not only are Speakers nonpartisan, but that they are seen to be nonpartisan. Given this current conflict of interest, which has broken the covenant of speakership with the Parliament of the people, this is impossible.
We know that in the Speaker’s parlour there is a red telephone right to Luthuli house. When you pick up that line, at the end of it there is Gwede Mantashe. It is not the Speaker who is running this House. It is Gwede Mantashe who is running this House! [Applause.]
Then, when you had an opportunity to start talking and demonstrating nonpartisanship by making appointments in your office, what did you do instead? You sent retreaded ANC has-beens, who couldn’t get elected because they were on the wrong side of a faction, to advise you. Where is the nonpartisanship there?
The bottom line is that this office has been compromised. The only way it can be fixed is if the Speaker resigns her position as the chairperson of the ANC, or she steps down as the Speaker of this House, or this motion succeeds today because maybe some people on that side of the House will have listened to some of the good advice and great arguments today. [Interjections.]
We need a Speaker who is going to defend Parliament and not diminish it. We need a Speaker who is going to control this precinct, not hand this precinct over to the executive.
We have had some interesting speakers up here today. Let us start with the hon Minister of Water and Sanitation, who came to this podium after being - I’d rather not see you after, thank you - unceremoniously removed from this podium. She is not adverse to or untalented in defending the indefensible. This is after all the Premier who defended the hon Humphrey Mmemezi when he abused his government credit card. [Applause.]
Let me tell you, I hope the people of Bekkersdal are seeing what the DA is doing with the dirty votes that you didn’t want from them, and that you could come here and defend a party and a group of people who chucked you out of office in Gauteng. Well, we have heard about your buttocks. You are obviously very adept at turning the other cheek. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
You also perhaps need to read this little book, and I am going to leave it here at the podium for you. It is called the Constitution. The fact that you have won a majority in an election doesn’t mean you automatically appoint the Speaker. That is why we have a secret ballot for the position of Speaker in this House, precisely to ensure that parties don’t necessarily have to vote for somebody from their own ranks. So, I will leave this up here for you, because ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: You have previously ruled that the member at the podium should not address another member who is seated. I ask you to maintain that rule.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Hon Steenhuisen, will you address the Chairperson of the sitting.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I will give you the Constitution to pass on to her then, if that is the case.
And what did she do here today? No comprehensive defence of the Speaker. No rational counterargument to the points that were advanced today. She came here with a shopping list of government’s achievements, precisely showing you how there is no distinction between this House and the executive. Isn’t that the problem? [Applause.]
And then we had the hon Minister of Sport and Recreation here today. I don’t know why he is called Razzmatazz, because I didn’t see any razzmatazz here today, just ugly racial invective. All he can do is insult people. Opposition, we are not the last people he is going to call losers. Didn’t he call our national soccer team a bunch of losers?
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: We wear your scorn as a badge of honour.
Now, he used a lot of highfalutin English here today, but there is some speculation about his matric results. I don’t want to get into that, but I do remember something from matric. That was that Shakespeare’s Macbeth said something about—
a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Isn’t that a great lesson? [Applause.]
And then we had the hon Mabe, in the greatest contradiction I think we have ever seen in this Parliament. She came up here and bemoaned the behaviour of the members of the opposition, and then she behaved worse than anybody else has behaved in this fifth democratic Parliament since we started sitting. [Interjections.]
But, let me just tell you something. If there was any doubt before today about why this motion must succeed, it is the events of three hours ago where the Speaker of this Parliament, who is supposed to be nonpartisan, addressed an ANC rally on the precinct – unprecedented! – from a police van. [Interjections.] From a police van!
At the moment we have a sensitivity about who actually called the police to come and intimidate the EFF. Who actually invited the militarisation of Parliament? Was it the executive? Was it the Speaker? Was it the Chief Whips’ Forum? Even the police had to say that they can only come in here on advice. [Interjections.]
Let me tell you that today when hon Mbete stood on that police van, behind the symbol of the SA Police Service, and addressed her supporters on this precinct, she finally, unashamedly, threw off the robes of nonpartisanship, and donned the green garb of partisanship that will never take this House forward. [Interjections.]
This is a sacred precinct. We should be respecting minorities. We should be encouraging debate. The bottom line is, with a Speaker who is so severely compromised this cannot happen. If we want this House to work, there is only one solution and that is Mbete must go! [Applause.]
Mr G S RADEBE: House Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: The hon speaker who has just left the podium called the hon Mbete simply “Mbete” without the “hon”, and he said she must go. Is it parliamentary in this House for a member to call another member by her name without “hon”?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order. I did not hear it in that way.
Mr N T GODI
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, Comrade Deputy President, comrades and hon members, the decorum of the Fifth Parliament has been substantially affected, in part on account of members’ rising on points of orders needlessly, but also with unrestrained heckling, testing the acumen of the presiding officers to the limit.
The APC believes that we all have a duty to ensure the smooth running of this House. We must all, from the majority party to every other party, develop thick skins, take the punch, and allow the debates to flow with minimal disruption. This House is meant for the representatives of the people to debate in. So let us debate. Let us allow space for debates, robust debates.
In my view, Madam Speaker, you have generally been firm, decisive and fair. [Applause.] I therefore do not think there is any empirical evidence to support a no confidence motion.
We have been elected to come here and address the grievances of the people, not to engage in theatrics. We are getting paid with taxpayers’ money to do substantive work, to make things happen for the people, not merely to play politics in Parliament. It is a sad indictment on us that the dominant perception out there is that Parliament is preoccupied with drama, having little regard for the basic needs of the African majority out there.
The APC as a sincere and honest party, ... [Interjections.] ... with a balanced and mature approach to important issues of the nation, cannot support a frivolous motion to remove the Speaker, who has been in her office for hardly four months.
We shall know them by their friends. [Applause.] The APC as a party of revolution will not – will not – for strategic or tactical reasons align itself with the so-called friends of the natives or beneficiaries of white minority rule.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M WATERS
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Mr N T GODI
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order, and it is quite serious. When the hon Mabe left the podium, she actually swore.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, where are you taking us now?
Mr M WATERS: No. I would like you to listen.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Because we have passed that speaker – do you agree?
Mr M WATERS: I know. It is very serious. So, if you want me to repeat what she said, I will do it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. I think what you should rather do is the following. You see, a point of order refers to a very specific point on the agenda where we are. So, we have moved on beyond that point. I want to advise you that through your Chief Whip you submit that in writing to the office of the Speaker, or to my office and I will refer it to the office of the Speaker, so that we can take a decision as far as that is concerned. To put the point now is really unfair towards the Chairperson, and I am sure you will agree with that.
Mr M WATERS: No, I don’t actually, but I ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Well that is my ruling, hon member.
Mr M WATERS: The hon Mabe swore and it is all over the TV. [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I want you to put that in writing and then we will follow the matter up. If need be, we will come back to the House to deal with the matter.
Mr M WATERS: We will do so. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: House Chairperson, Deputy President, colleagues in the executive, and members, I have not heard a single member speaking in this debate indicate that the Speaker was not elected in terms of the Constitution. That is what guides the election of the Speaker, the Constitution and the Rules of this House. Not one member has said that the Speaker was not elected in terms of the Constitution.
Chairperson, I rise to strongly support the motion, to strongly support those members ... [Applause.] [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] [Applause] Order! Order, hon members! Continue hon Minister. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I rise to strongly support the motion of confidence in Speaker Mbete ... [Applause.] ... that was presented by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, and I strongly object to the motion of the leader of the largest opposition party. The hon member and his brotherhood collaborators, and their new desperate coalition, cannot be supported. Their motion is not worthy of debate, it is without substance and it therefore cannot be supported by this House. [Interjections.]
The futile attack on the Speaker is part of an orchestrated campaign against the ANC, its members and the people. [Interjections.] We as a movement are used to such plots against us, against our members and against our people. We will withstand this plot and succeed in our cause, as we have done before.
There are some who have tried to persuade the public that our presiding officer has not observed the rules. The truth is that the united opposition forces are the ones who have brought chaos and anarchy to this House in their efforts to subvert the policy programme of the majority party.
The executive are here, ready to respond to questions and, indeed, ready to enhance policy and service provision. Rather than having a focus on the work Parliament is constitutionally mandated to execute, we are being diverted by sore losers who entered the elections believing they would win, and who are today bruised and angry that they are not a majority. [Applause.]
Sadly, even more than seeing the “sore losers”, we are witnessing a rehash of the conservative liberalism that still lives in the Desperate Alliance. The core belief of these liberals is that blacks cannot be trusted with a majority, especially the liberation movement, and that the only protection for the privileged is a watered down, powerless majority and a conservative alliance of largely black and largely white small opposition parties.
The Speaker has done all a Speaker should do. She has convened sittings and question days, and has allowed members’ motions and debates agreed to by all parties. She has been met with derision, insults, disruption, outright rudeness and insulting disrespect – all this by so-called “honourable” members of this House.
A Speaker, hon members and Chairperson, can only be truly effective if members co-operate in the decorum and work of the House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, there is a point of order. Yes, hon member. What is your point of order?
Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, we are hon members of this House, and not “so-called” hon members of this House. [Interjections.] Ewe [Yes], I will remember.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon Minister, will you refer to members as “hon members of the House” and not “so-called hon members of the House”. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon members of the House. Chairperson, of course, the real issue, which we know, is that we don’t want order because we can’t stand the debating prowess of the ANC. [Applause.]
A Speaker can only be truly effective if members co-operate in the decorum and work of the House. Imagine, hon members, if in a soccer match the players want to pick up the ball and run, and then demand that the referee ignore this breach of the rules. [Interjections.] That is what we have in this motion. This House has experienced disorder, but not because of Speaker Mbete. It is because this is what some hon members have agreed upon, to render the House chaotic.
For many of the movers of the motion being in Parliament is a brief break from a full-time privileged occupation. They are not here to ensure transformation of our society for the good of all, especially the most vulnerable. [Applause.] We cannot and we will not agree to any attempt to reverse our democratic advances and our implementation of the ANC programme of change for South Africa. Hon members, I urge you to vote against this motion.
In this month we remember Steve Biko, a man who believed that we, the majority, ... [Interjections.] ... could stand on our own feet and that we didn’t need to be propped up by anyone. [Applause.] I wonder what he would say about this new Desperate Alliance. We remember Vuyisile Mini, a man who was hanged because he would not betray the cause of freedom; I wonder what he would say about this new Desperate Alliance. We remember Jeannette Schoon and her daughter, bombed to death for believing in democracy. I wonder what she would say about this new Desperate Alliance. The struggle was a nonracial struggle for democracy, and she was fully behind it.
This attack on Speaker Mbete targets democracy. Let us defeat it and consign it to the dirty dustbin of history. [Applause.] Our cause as this House must be to get Parliament working and to accelerate implementation of the ANC’s objective of creating jobs, fighting to remove inequality and eradicating poverty. We have to fight for that.
We believe, Chairperson, that leaders of the ANC are excellent leaders in this Parliament. [Applause.] We recall the role played by the now hon Deputy President, when he served as the Chairperson of the Constituent Assembly ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let me recognise the hon member there. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, I am wondering if the hon Minister is willing to take a question.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: If you have the opportunity to bump into me somewhere, you might ask me a question. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue hon Minister. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I recall that ANC leaders ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, can you rule if that is parliamentary?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, the Minister is clearly not prepared to take a question. [Interjections.] Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Yes, sir. As I said, Chairperson, when the debate bites, it becomes uncomfortable and it is difficult to tolerate. Now let us remind the House ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let me take the point of this hon member here. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr I M OLLIS: Thank you, Chairperson. The Minister said in her speech that the executive are here to answer questions ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order. That is an issue for debate, really. [Interjections.] I really don’t know why are you rising now ...
Mr I M OLLIS: Would you ask her if she will take my question? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please! That is completely, completely irrelevant now. Continue hon Minister.
Mr I M OLLIS: It is not irrelevant to ask a question. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat! Hon member, take your seat! [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, I am asking if ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat!
Mr I M OLLIS: ... the Minister will take a question. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: The Deputy President, serving today in government, served this country well while he was Secretary-General of the ANC ... [Applause.] ... and Chair of the Constituent Assembly that delivered the Constitution everybody upholds today. He was Secretary-General!
So we can make no mistake about the fact that this assault on Speaker Mbete is meant to ensure that there is never order in this House, and this is a fear of the calibre of the programmes of the ANC ... [Applause.] ... and the delivery it will ensure in this five-year term. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! I now recognise the hon Leader of the Opposition. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Chairperson, just before the Leader of the Opposition speaks, ... [Interjections.] ... I wish to say that I see that the time for the Leader of the Opposition has been changed. He had three minutes, and now it is one minute. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, thank you. You may take your seat. I wish to advise you that ... [Interjections.] ... much earlier in the debate I alerted the Whips of the opposition in writing to the fact that they were using the time that the Leader of the Opposition would have, and the time was amended by the DA itself. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] So, it is the DA who decided that there was one minute left for their leader. [Laughter.] [Applause.] It is not us. [Interjections.] I plead innocence in that regard!
Mr M WATERS: Yes, as a point of information, the mover of any motion gets eight minutes. A party cannot transfer time to or from that individual ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member for that information. [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: So we didn’t take any time ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. The hon Leader of the Opposition.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: In fact, perhaps we must talk about famous sayings: If a soccer match deteriorates, why do you want to blame the players? Blame the referee! [Applause.] In this instance the Speaker of the National Assembly has failed the people.
But here is the point that I would like to make. I had hoped that this discussion would be about how we strengthen Parliament, how we strengthen oversight, and how we strengthen the executive. Instead the ANC deployed its own, and member after member started to make racial attacks and to deliver racial rhetoric. In fact, they personalised the discussion. [Applause.]
Let me quote them: “We will never abandon our own.” Those were the words they used. Whether they are corrupt, or fail at their jobs, they will never abandon them. That was the quote. [Applause.]
Here is what has been abandoned in this discussion – it is the Constitution of the Republic. Also, the people of this country have been abandoned. Moreover, those who are unemployed have long been forgotten.
I urge you to vote for South Africa, and not Luthuli House. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order! [Applause.] Order, hon members! Hon members, just calm down now. Just calm down. Order, hon members!
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will now proceed to put the motion by the hon Leader of the Opposition.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, I move to amend the motion by the six men against the woman, led by the hon Maimane.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Order! I have a point of order, hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I think the hon Chief Whip should know that we must respect one another, and call one another “hon” not “men”. That’s unparliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat. Hon Chief Whip, let’s use the term “hon members”.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, I move to amend the motion by the six hon men, that is, members. [Laughter.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, ...
Mr J S MALEMA: I have a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Malema. I am going to recognise the hon Gardee first. Maybe you are not rising on the same point of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: I think, Chairperson, you are deliberately setting me up against my leader.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why should I want to do that? [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: I have sat down. He stood up, and that is exactly what we are debating here ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr G A GARDEE: No, I sat down. I am sitting down. Let him speak.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: That’s dangerous.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order? [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson! Hon Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, Chief Whip. I will come to you now. Hon Malema?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I want to withdraw the fact that I referred to six “men”, so that I don’t give anybody an excuse to delay this vote.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just refer to “hon members”. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Yes, please. [Interjections.] I will deny you any reason.
Chairperson, I move:
That the House—
(1) notes that the hon Baleka Mbete is an outstanding veteran of the struggle for our liberation and has dedicated her life to the betterment of the lives of all our people;
(2) further notes that she is a former Deputy President of South Africa, ... –
which is common cause -
... and she was previously Speaker of the National Assembly of South Africa from 2004 to 2008 and the Deputy Speaker from 1996 to 2004 ... –
that is also common cause;
(3) acknowledges that when she went into exile she taught in Mbabane, and then went on to work for the African National Congress ...
[Interjections.] Please ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: You open your mouth when you are spoken to!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chief Whip, get on with the motion. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: You open your mouth when you are spoken to!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chief Whip! Hon Chief Whip, get on with the motion!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I continue:
(4) recalls that in all these positions she has served the nation with integrity, professionalism, dedication and selflessness; ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I again continue:
(5) further recalls that she is one of the foremost advocates of gender equality and a beacon of hope for many young people who think;
(6) believes that her vast experience in politics, governance, legislatures and social transformation stands her in good stead to lead this Parliament for the next five years;
(7) expresses its confidence in her able leadership of this legislature; and
(8) rejects the call for the removal of the Speaker in terms of section 52(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Chief Whip.
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I would just like to know in terms of what Rule the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party has moved this motion. The speakers’ list has been exhausted and all the speakers have spoken. We have a motion on the Table which, I believe, the House should consider, and either say yes or no to. So I would just like guidance in that regard.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, the tradition here in Parliament is that if you want to amend a motion, you must amend it and not present a different motion. What the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has just done is to present an alternative motion, and if you want us to debate that, we can do so on a different day.
We have the power to vote now. The Chairperson can call for the “Ayes” and “Noes” and so on, and then proceed. Don’t hijack this process.
What you have said now is what you said in the House sitting last week as part of your motions without notice. I don’t know why you are abusing us with that rhetoric, which is really meaningless. I don’t know why we are being abused by that process.
Could you please subject the motion that has been debated to a vote process and then conclude? The ANC has the right to express its view.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your point is noted.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon presiding officer, I wonder if there is any Rule which allows members to throw in the towel, like they do in boxing. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Minister. Hon Minister. [Interjections.] Hon members, order! Order! We are dealing with a very serious question before the House and we want to dispose of the question.
Hon members, in terms of Rule 96 an amendment to a draft resolution may be moved if it is allowed by the presiding officer. [Interjections.] In this Parliament, since 1994, this type of amendment has always been permissible. Therefore, there is no basis for this practice not to apply now, bearing in mind that this is not the first time that this House has dealt with motions of no confidence.
Hon members, I now put the amendment to the motion by the Leader ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, which ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Rule 96.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But this Rule 96 of the 8th edition does not say any of the things you just read there. I think you must get an updated version of the Rules. [Laughter.] This is the problem we are having with you. You are reading the wrong books here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, it all depends how you interpret Rule 96. [Interjections.] It all depends on what value you put on Rule 96.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is nothing here of what you have just read – it’s not here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, the presiding officer has the discretion in terms of Rule 96(c) to allow such an amendment, and I am allowing that amendment. Hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. While I accept that you have the power to allow an amendment to a draft resolution, I would submit the following to you. I seek a ruling from you as to whether this is, in fact, not an amendment – it is our view that it is not an amendment. It is a substitution of a new motion in its entirety. It does not even closely resemble in substance or wording the drive and reason for the original motion.
So what you are not dealing with here, hon House Chair, is an amendment – you are dealing with a substitution. And that surely can’t be right in the interests of free and fair debate?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, as the presiding officer I am allowing the amendment. I will now put the amendment. You can vote against it, of course. I now put the amendment to the motion of the Leader of the Opposition. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! This is the motion as moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. I put the amendment. Are there any objections?
HON MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There are objections. I now put the question. Those in favour will say, “Aye”.
HON MEMBERS: Aye.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): And those against will say, “No”.
HON MEMBERS: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I think the “Ayes” have it. [Applause.] Are there any objections?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, there is an objection from the Democratic Alliance and we would like to make a declaration.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There is an objection from the Democratic Alliance and there is a request for a declaration.
I will now allow parties who wish to make a declaration of vote an opportunity of up to three minutes to do so. You may go ahead.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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Declarations of vote:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, what we have seen in the last ten minutes in this House is a perversion of the democratic right of parties to place motions on the Order Paper for debate and discussion. [Interjections.] I suspect that the real reason why the Chief Whip of the Majority Party was so hellbent on amending this motion is that there are members on that side of the House who may well have supported the motion moved by the hon Maimane. [Applause.] Clearly the telephone from Luthuli House has been ringing during this sitting ... [Interjections] ... and the hon ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] No, order! Order, hon members! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Here we go. The telephone ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon Steenhuisen! Hon members, let us allow ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon Shivambu! Take your seat. I am busy addressing the House.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We have been disrupted. Now I have ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... Home Affairs is disrupting us here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu! Hon Shivambu, take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please eject that man here. Please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, take you seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please eject ... [Inaudible.] ... the House here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am busy with a ruling. Will you take your seat please? Take your seat, hon member! I am busy with a ruling.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: [Inaudible.] ... leave the House before we sit down.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, take your seat please! Hon members, ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We cannot be harassed by Gwede here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members! Hon members, I wish to make the following ruling. Hon members in the House are not allowed to communicate with guests in the gallery in this particular way. Guests in the gallery should not participate in the proceedings of the House, ... [Interjections.] ... so that we can get on with our business.
Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, please continue.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: What is very clear ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: No, no, no, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, why are you rising? [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: No, no, no, no. We raised an issue earlier about these people who are participating here, and you warned them. Now this Gwede stood up and waved to the people here. [Interjections.] You called them to order, and we are not going to be ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... by this useless Gwede, who comes here ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: ... and disrespects the proceedings of this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon members, no. Hon member, are you rising on the same point?
Mr N S MATIASE: It is on the same point. [Interjections.] On the same point.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. I have given a ruling that members here in the House should not communicate in that way with guests in the gallery. Similarly, I have made the ruling that members of the public in the gallery, who are sitting there, should not participate in the proceedings, the activities, here in the House. That is the ruling.
Mr N S MATIASE: I have a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order?
Mr N S MATIASE: The Chair is required to rule the members of the ANC, but they continue to undermine your rulings by communicating with the people in the gallery. Or they instruct whoever is in the gallery, who provokes ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member.
Mr N S MATIASE: ... and we call upon you to rule on that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member.
Mr N S MATIASE: Gwede Mantashe must leave here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member! [Interjections.] Order, hon members. Hon members, we want to get on with the business of the House. [Interjections.] Order! Order! We want to get on with the business of this house, to decide on a very important question that is before this House. We want to conclude that question and we really call on all hon members to allow the House to proceed with its business. Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Chair. I need to correct myself. It is very clear that the phones were not ringing, but obviously a few SMSs have been exchanged, giving the orders from the top. It is also very clear that nothing can happen in this Parliament, whether it is from the Speaker’s Chair, the Chief Whip’s office or members’ offices, without the lord of Luthuli House giving his say-so.
Mr G S RADEBE: I have a point of order, Chair. [Interjections.] I have a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, why are you rising?
Mr G S RADEBE: I am rising on a point of order, Chairperson. The hon member cannot cast doubt on other hon members here. He is saying that we cannot take decisions, and that we are taking instructions. We are not taking instructions. We are representing our people here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member.
Mr G S RADEBE: He cannot disrespect us and undermine us like that, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr G S RADEBE: ... and it is the same with the hon Malema. He cannot undermine us.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! Hon member, you have now made a speech. Thank you for that information. Continue hon Chief Whip of the Opposition.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, the ANC had a perfect opportunity this afternoon to actually express their support, or not, for this motion by voting for it. [Interjections.] Instead, because they are petrified that some of their own members have become ungovernable, they do not want to take the chance, which is also why we have the lord of Luthuli House sitting in the gallery, so that he can be eyeball to eyeball with the members of his party and make sure that they do his bidding. That is precisely the problem. [Interjections.] That is precisely the problem. By perverting the motion before us today, the ANC have perverted the course of democracy. We will not support it, and the people of South Africa are watching this and they know exactly what tricks they are up to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are there any further declarations? The EFF?
Mr J S MALEMA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair, we think that the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has put a completely new motion, which requires us to speak from a different platform. This new motion is a motion of confidence in the Speaker.
The motion that has been before us this afternoon is a motion of no confidence in the Speaker, and the opposition parties that are opposing the Speaker stood up to deal with issues that we think compromise the office of the Speaker.
The EFF, through our hon member Tshabalala, articulated – without the speech degenerating in any way – why we feel very strongly that the Speaker should leave. We are still convinced that that motion should continue to be considered, and we do not believe in the Speaker.
We are not persuaded by personal attacks by the ANC, especially those by hon members like Mbalula, who knows very well that he is a howler, ... [Laughter.] ... who knows very well that he knows nothing about Marxism and Leninism, who lost to Gwede Mantashe who came to supervise him today ... [Laughter.] ... to make sure that he does not vote with us because they doubt him, and who has committed class suicide. He has sold his soul and, even when he is in the gallery, you can see that he is begging for his job.
If there is any hypocrite in this House, it is Fikile Mbalula, who is never true to any cause because he lacks a backbone. Therefore we must put it very clearly here today ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, there is a point of order. Yes, hon member.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: I think there are hon members in this House, and there are no hypocrites. Can you rule on that please? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order, hon members! Hon Malema, you have referred to another member of the House as a “hypocrite”. Will you withdraw that remark please?
Mr J S MALEMA: No, you refused to ask that “hypocrite” be withdrawn earlier here. Once you refuse to do something it becomes a precedent. You never ruled and we are still waiting for your ruling. Couple it with this one, and come back with a ruling on “hypocrite”.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the hon Malema is referring to a precedent that I am not aware of. I think it would be fair if I check on that precedent that he is referring to and, if need be, I will come back to the House to rule on the matter. Why are you rising hon member?
Mr J S MALEMA: Can I proceed? I was still on the point of Mbalula.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, no, no. There is another point.
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Chair, can we address you on ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members! Hon members! Hon members, there is an important question before the House that we must deal with. Right? I want us to deal with that question. We are now at the point where declarations are being made so that we can decide on the question. Right? Allow me to conduct proceedings in such a way that we can decide on the question as a result of our sitting and debating the motion that is currently before us. I am first going to recognise hon Mthembu.
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Chair, we have heard the debate, and now it is supposed to be the time for parties to make their declarations. [Interjections.] The member hon Malema is attacking the integrity of a Minister seated here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mthembu.
Mr J M MTHEMBU: He is not making a declaration. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J M MTHEMBU: I do not think that you should allow it, Chair. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, hon members. This is an opportunity for party declarations. Hon Malema, can you just step aside? I see the hon Buthelezi behind you, who is raising his hand. Hon Buthelezi.
Mr J S MALEMA: I will come back.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, you will have a few seconds left to conclude like you were saying. I will give you that opportunity.
Mr J S MALEMA: On the Mbalula question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no! On the declaration. On the declaration. Hon Buthelezi! [Interjections.] No, hon member! No! No! Hon member, just take your seat please. I have recognised the hon Buthelezi. Hon Buthelezi.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Chair, I really don’t understand why we are complicating a simple matter. I don’t see that, Sir. I don’t want to challenge your prerogatives in terms of the Constitution, but I don’t see why we should not vote for the motion as it appears on the Order Paper, because the result will be the same. It seems to me that you are going to force all of us to walk out of the House, if you foist this thing on us. You are foisting it. Why do you complicate it, because in any case there is no chance that those who oppose the majority party will win. Why do you complicate it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Buthelezi, in terms of the Rules of the House parties have the opportunity to make a declaration of vote. Hon Malema, you have a few seconds left now to make your declaration, please. [Interjections.] I will come back to you afterwards, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair, I was saying that it is incorrect for us to stand to agree with what the ruling party has said, because it has said nothing, except to call us all sorts of names, led by the Minister of Sport and Recreation, who himself is a hypocrite.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: He was elected on the ticket of change and then turned against change.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has now expired. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: He was contesting Mangaung ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... on the ticket of economic freedom, ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... and changed against that. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema your time has now expired. Thank you.
Mr J S MALEMA: So, if there is any hypocrite in this House, it is Mbalula.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Thank you. [Interjections.] Do you want to rise on a point of order, or do you want to make a declaration, hon member?
Mr G S RADEBE: I want to put a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order now?
Mr G S RADEBE: Chairperson, on point of order: Hon Malema keeps on referring to hon Mbalula as “Mbalula”, while you have very clearly said that hon members cannot be allowed to call other hon members simply by their names.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. The hon member has subsequently referred to the hon Minister of Sport and Recreation. Hon members, are there any further declarations? [Interjections.] Hon Holomisa!
Dr B H HOLOMISA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
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Dr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Chairperson, I concur with hon Prince Buthelezi, that we should vote on the motion on the Order Paper ...
IsiXhosa:
... hayi izinto ezingena ngasemva. Nisichithela ixesha apha. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. That matter has been dealt with in terms of our order of procedure.
Dr P W A MULDER
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick
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Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, I agree with the hon Holomisa that you are making it very complicated. Technically, a new motion that is totally the opposite of the original can never be an amendment, and I think that is a technical point.
As far as the FF Plus is concerned, this was an opportunity to really debate the future of Parliament, and specifically of the office of the Speaker – not specifically that Speaker, but the office of the Speaker, as I have indicated.
I think we have missed an opportunity for very different reasons. I spoke about the position of the Speaker in the British Parliament and the measures taken there – very specific measures – to ensure the Speaker’s nonpartisanship. One of those measures, interesting enough, is that when the Speaker is elected in the British Parliament, it is a secret vote, so nobody knows whom you are voting for. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Dr P W A MULDER: I would have preferred us here to have had a secret vote to make sure that we really vote for the best interests in this matter. From our point of view, we will vote against that. Thank you, Sir.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
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Dr P W A MULDER
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, I want to talk on the point of procedure. We are debating a brand-new motion right here. There has been a request regarding whether we will hold a secret ballot on the motion that was tabled. If we are going to debate the ANC’s motion, I simply cannot sit here while we have a different discussion. It cannot be so, Chairperson. I would like a ruling on that point.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order! Hon member and other hon members, I have quoted the relevant Rule 96.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, in that case we are debating a different issue. I am sorry, we are going to walk out. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Let us allow the members who want to leave the House time to do so.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson! [Interjections.] Hon Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, you have not adjourned the proceedings and we are still quorate in the House. Therefore I can make a declaration. Am I allowed to do that? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon members, let us allow those who wish to leave the House to do so, so that we can continue with the business of the House. [Interjections.]
I will give you the opportunity to make the declaration. Hon Chief Whip, you may continue now.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: It is a pity, hon Chairperson, that you did not recognise me before they left. We have collectively agreed to make it less complicated and to make sure that in the declaration we withdraw the amendment, and vote and defeat them. Unfortunately you did not see me at the right time. However, Chairperson, we believe that we are quorate, so we can withdraw the amendment and vote against the motion on the Table. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the Chief Whip has now withdrawn the amendment that he moved. I will, in terms of Rule 96 once again, agree to that.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party, with leave, withdrew his proposed amendment.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will now put the motion by the Leader of the Opposition.
Question put: That the motion by the Leader of the Opposition be agreed to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Those in favour of the motion put by the Leader of the Opposition will say, “Aye”.
HON MEMBERS: Aye! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Laughter.] Order, hon members! I know it is a bit late in the afternoon. Let me repeat this. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon members, I want us to give the question the seriousness that it deserves. It is not a joke! It is not a joke! It is a constitutional motion that is before us.
Those in favour of the motion put by the Leader of the Opposition will say, “Aye!”
HON MEMBERS: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Those against will say, “No!”.
HON MEMBERS: No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick
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)
RECORDING OF VOTES
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we want to ensure that we deal with the matter in the way that I have just articulated. I am going to proceed further. Even though there were no members here who supported the motion by the Leader of the Opposition, we will ring the bells for one minute so that you can record your support, or otherwise, for this motion, given what has been raised by the parties on my left. The bells will now be rung for one minute, and thereafter we will record the votes.
The bells were rung for one minute.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, in regard to the question before the House by the Leader of the Opposition, it is important to note that we must firstly ensure that we have a majority of the members present in the House. Thereafter, we must ensure that the votes of the members who are in the House are recorded.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, I want to find out if anyone has called for a division.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. No one has called for a division.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: Then, on what basis are we voting?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Given the fact that we are dealing with a constitutional motion, we would like to ensure that, with the situation that has played itself out here, the motion that is before the House is either supported or rejected, and we would like that to be reflected in the Minutes of Parliament.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: All right.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. The Question before the House is: That the motion by the Leader of the Opposition be agreed to.
AYES – 0
NOES - 234: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Boshielo, S P; Brown, L; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E S; Faku, Z C; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godi, N T; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, P S; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Khoza, T Z M; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Maphatsoe , E R K; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile, S P; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbete, B; Mchunu, S; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mnguni, P J; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, I; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msibi, V Z; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkoana-Mashabane, M E; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Oliphant, M N; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Plouamma, M A; Qikani, A D N; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramokhoase, T R J E; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Scheepers, M A; Semenya, M R; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Xego-Sovita, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S.
Question not agreed to.
Motion accordingly negatived.
The House adjourned at 18:40.
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