Hansard: NA: Questions for Oral Reply: Cluster 3: Governance
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 10 Sep 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 10 September 2014 Take: 1
WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
QUESTIONS
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START OF DAY
Question 104:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the Public Service Commission, PSC, reports to Parliament. As a result, Parliament is in the best position to strengthen the Public Service Commission. However, challenges faced by the Public Service Commission include the lack of implementation of the Public Service Commission’s recommendations by government departments.
In line with the strengthened rule envisaged in the National Development Plan, NDP, for the Public Service Commission, government will accelerate and table in Parliament an amendment to the Public Service Commission legislation. This will strengthen its role and make the Public Service Commission a robust champion of a meritocratic Public Service by promoting and monitoring key norms and standards.
Implementation of the new financial disclosure system, known as the e-Disclosure system, which focuses on the electronic submission of financial disclosure by managers in the Public Service, will be closely monitored by the Public Service Commission in order to ensure compliance. While ensuring that the e-Disclosure system is in line with the approved regulatory framework, the Public Service Commission will also provide advice and make recommendations regarding the improvement of the e-Disclosure system for senior management in the Public Service. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M S BOOI
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr M S BOOI: Madam Speaker, given that there has been a complaint by the Public Service Commission about the lack of response from and co-operation by departments, don’t you think you should be able to assist the Public Service Commission with the responsibilities that they have taken on, given that you would want clean governance in this particular area?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the implementation of the recommendations of the Public Service Commission, as the reports are tabled in Parliament, has to be dealt with from two aspects. The first is for Parliament itself to play its role, by ensuring that departments actually implement, in terms of its own oversight role over the administration.
Secondly, as regards those aspects that are related to the work of the Department of the Public Service and Administration, we are in discussions with the Public Service Commission as to how best to assist with the implementation of the recommendations. Once the recommendations have been made, it is up to the relevant institutions, including Parliament, to see how they proceed with implementing them. It is not for the Public Service Commission to implement the recommendations themselves. Thank you.
Mr J J MCGLUWA
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
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Mr J J MCGLUWA: Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for his response. Minister, as you are aware, and as you mentioned, the commission currently has little or rather no power to enforce its recommendations. In most cases, we find that where its recommendations are ignored, there are no penalties.
You are talking about introducing something new. Are you going to introduce a Public Service Commission Amendment Bill? What kind of powers would this commission be given by the Bill, and would this also include penalties? I thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Speaker, the powers and functions of the institutions established by the Constitution were determined by the Constitutional Assembly. It is the constituent assembly sitting here that determines the powers and functions of all the institutions that exist. Now, it is not up to the department to allocate powers to anybody. However, the Constitution itself and the legal instruments that are in place are sufficient for us to be able to implement whatever needs to be implemented.
In terms of the proposals in the National Development Plan regarding the building of state capacity, a number of suggestions are being made, not only for the Public Service, but also for the institutions that function to assist the Public Service to perform better. In that context, it includes looking at the role and function of the Public Service Commission, which could then be brought to Parliament for consideration. This is because the Public Service Commission itself reports to Parliament. So, to that extent, the amendments to the law, or the rules and regulations, which will be consistent with the proposals in the NDP, will be brought to Parliament for consideration. [Interjections.]
Ms N V NQWENISO
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Ms N V NQWENISO: Madam Speaker, Mr Minister, currently the Public Service Charter remains merely words. If you are saying that what the Public Service Commission recommends depends on what the Public Service implements, why are they not implementing the Public Service Charter now? What assurance do you have that they will implement the recommendations? You are promising that you will strengthen the legislation. When will that happen? In the meantime, what are the remedial steps that the PSC can take? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the Public Service Charter is not a product of the Public Service Commission. So, the implementation of its recommendations has nothing to do with the Public Service Commission. It is an initiative that has been taken by the Department of Public Service and Administration, together with labour and civil society, to strengthen the Batho Pele principles and the way they should be implemented.
In terms of our own experience and the implementation of the recommendations of the Public Service Commission, when I was still in the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, we assisted with bringing the commission’s recommendations to the attention of Cabinet. I think, between the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation and us, it will still remain our responsibility to bring to the attention of Cabinet all the recommendations that have been made and their implementation. With the experience we have gained in the past few years, we have found that it is possible, through that process, for the departments to implement the recommendations of the Public Service Commission where the need arises. We have not seen a crisis as yet.
With regard to the point at which we come to Parliament, as soon as the processes are in place, we will be able to inform Parliament that the legislative process will start. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, I am glad you mentioned the Cabinet in the last response, because I would like to think that, although the PSC makes recommendations that heads of departments have to follow, the primary responsibility lies with the political head of a department. The executive authority has signed performance agreements with each head of department, and it is up to the executive authority to ensure that the heads of department follow the recommendations of the PSC.
The question I would like to ask is: Is there that kind of resolve, and have heads of department been brought to book by members of the executive authority for not fulfilling or complying with the recommendations of the PSC? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, as I said in my last response, in my experience in my previous role, I did not see resistance in Cabinet to implementing the recommendations that are brought forward to improve the functioning of the administration. I think that commitment and resolve on the part of Cabinet is still there, and therefore we need to find a way in which we may be able to escalate that.
In our discussions with the Auditor-General, the same thing applies. We are going to do a follow-up to look at the recommendations of the Auditor-General to see to what extent they have to be implemented. This is the only way in which we can improve the functioning of the administration. The Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation reports have to deal with the functioning of the administration. We see it as our role as the Department of Public Service and Administration to ensure that the recommendations, which are as a result of the work of the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, are implemented so that we can improve the situation. In addition, we think that we should be able to find a way in which those things are going to be improved. Thank you.
QUESTION 102/The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
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Question 104/The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION)
Question 102:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration: Hon Speaker, government has introduced measures to motivate educators and also ensure that their profession remains highly esteemed.
These measures include: firstly, the Occupation Specific Dispensation for educators, which was introduced in April 2008 with the aim of recruiting and retaining educators at market-related salaries, especially for scarce skills; and secondly, the President appointed the commission to enquire into the remuneration and conditions of service in the Public Service.
The commission is expected to make findings and recommendations on the following areas: firstly, remuneration and conditions of service in the Public Service and public entities listed in Schedule 3A and 3C of the PFMA; and secondly, identify best practice in remuneration and conditions of service applied in the Public Service and public entities listed in Schedule 3A and 3C of the PFMA; and thirdly, physical sustainability of the wage bill and whether the state is receiving value for money in terms of its investment.
According to the commission’s terms of reference, the remuneration of educators will receive high priority. Thank you.
Mr S M JAFTA
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration
Mr S M JAFTA: Speaker, hon Minister, a number of educators are resigning from the Department of Education and amongst other reasons cited for that is that they do not earn enough for their livelihood. It becomes difficult for them even to enroll their children in tertiary institutions, resulting in their making huge loans, which they are unable to repay. Does the Minister agree with that? If yes or no, is that not putting the Department of Education in danger that can be prevented? Also, hon Minister, there is a rural allowance for those educators working in rural areas. The manner in which it is implemented seems to be inconsistent. Some do get the allowance, while others do not. Could the Minister also pause with how this works? Thank you, hon Speaker.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration: Speaker, the issue of the resignation of educators and their change in career has a number of elements. It is not only because of remuneration, and we can deal with that at some point. Secondly, the fact that people in the Public Service or society are indebted is not an issue relating to educators only. It is a societal matter, which has been raised by the Minister of Finance on a number of occasions. It has been raised with quite a number of stakeholders that, as South Africans, we are not saving. That is not only related to educators.
However, within the context of the discussions that are taking place between labour and ourselves, we have noted this as a major concern, not only for labour, but also for ourselves as the employer and state. Therefore, we are trying to look for mechanisms in which we may be able to help not only educators, but also employees of the Public Service in general to deal with the issue of indebtedness. As I said, it is a societal issue that we need to deal with. The management of our debt is something that all of us as a society need to deal with. Considering the responsibility that we have, we are taking steps to try and address that matter.
On the issue of people working in rural areas and the allowances that they get, you are actually confirming that the state has made a deliberate decision and taken steps to try and retain the skills, and actually make provision for those who are supposed to be deployed in areas to which, under normal circumstances, they would not go. That is one of the steps that the state has taken to complement what I have just said.
Nevertheless, the statement that I made earlier in my answer is that the commission is likely to deal with most of these issues and tell us exactly how we can remunerate our educators and other public servants in a manner that is consistent with international benchmarking. Thank you.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Minister, whilst I am aware that matters concerning educators do not fall immediately under your competence, let me ask this question: About 8 007 qualified teachers have left the profession during the past financial year. In response to this large exodus of qualified teachers, the National Teachers’ Union, Natu, proposed that teachers should be allowed to take one third of their pensions to pay off their debts. Would the Minister support this proposal? If not, what remedy would the Minister recommend? I thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration: Hon Speaker, subject to confirmation, I understand that the Minister of Finance will make a statement relating to the pension issue in the Public Service. If that is confirmed, I think that that debate will answer most of those questions.
Nevertheless, the pensions and the conditions of service of educators and other public servants are dealt with in the various structures in labour, and the relevant structures in government. Therefore, anything else which is supposed to come to light is discussed in that forum. It is not an issue that, as a department, we can pronounce on or anybody else can pronounce on. The issues are dealt with in the bargaining structures that have been established for that purpose, including this one. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: The Minister did make the statement and the House did have the debate.
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Speaker, Hon Minister, will you please inform this House when and how government will be implementing other measures to improve the image of teaching as a profession? Such steps include steps against poorly performing teachers and the long-awaited service performance agreements for principals. Will government continue to succumb to the pressure of Cosatu-affiliated unions such as Sadtu?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration: Hon Speaker, members of the House would know, through this House, that the Public Service in general is not governed by the same legislation. Various sectors have their own conditions of service and they are governed by different legislation. Some of the issues that have been raised relate to those areas where there are sector-specific discussions which are taking place. Therefore, I will leave it to the Department of Education to deal with the matter at a later stage. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms C N MAJEKE
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration
Ms C N MAJEKE: Speaker, hon Minister, is government considering or prepared to consider an investigation into Occupation Specific Dispensation pay for teachers as one of the interventions to improve the quality of our education and keep the profession attractive? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION) on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration: In my response to the main question I did indicate that the President has appointed a commission to enquire into the remuneration of the Public Service in general, and specifically to prioritise the issue of educators. I think the answer to that question will rely on the results of that process. Thank you.
QUESTION 107/ The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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QUESTION 102/ The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTATION
Question 107:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, the department, in collaboration with National Treasury, has identified five critical areas raised by the Auditor-General as a matter of concern. It’s in respect of these five areas that we will intensify both our support and our action, and I will now outline these five areas:
Firstly, there is the management and accounting for property, plant and equipment. We will target our efforts on matters of asset management practices, which include asset renewal, operational repairs and maintenance, and the evaluation of these assets, including updating asset registers and asset renewal strategies. These, of course, are very basic tasks that any chief financial officer, CFO, in any meaningful entity should be able to perform and we intend to make sure that this happens in municipalities.
Secondly, there is the irregular expenditure owing to supply chain management deficiencies. Again, municipalities will be capacitated, but will also be required to implement adequate supply chain management processes and procedures in reporting on irregular expenditure. Governance arrangements around these types of expenditure will be strengthened and the office of the Chief Procurement Officer will play a significant role in reducing supply chain management deficiencies. The bottom line, though, is that fewer and fewer people should be stealing public funds, either from the public sector or from business.
Thirdly, there are the receivables or debtors. In strengthening the ability of municipalities to maximise their fiscal capacity, we will focus on addressing inadequacies within the systems and processes across the revenue value chain, which include billing systems, cost of elective tariffs and appropriate debt management or credit management capabilities.
Fourthly, there is the compilation of weak annual financial statements and the use of consultants in this regard. Here we will improve the competency of personnel through training and skills transfer, as well as enforcing regulations on minimum standards for municipal managers and senior officials, including CFOs. We will include skills transfer and empowerment clauses in all consultants’ contracts working in municipalities. Members might be aware that in the last financial year that the Auditor-General reported on in 2012-13, some R900 million was spent on consultants by municipalities, with little regard for the quality of the outcome. So we are considering centralised procurement or financial management consultants for local government.
Finally, there is fraud and corruption. Here, again, we need to place a lot more emphasis on fighting fraud and corruption, but society as a whole needs to be able to contribute to this. In particular, there are two issues: firstly, we need a new value system in South Africa so that we don’t keep undermining the integrity of the Public Service and governmental systems, and secondly, we need to massively increase the enforcement of legislation that already exists relating to individuals who choose to violate that legislation.
An HON MEMBER: Like the President!
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: We will ensure that further measures will be taken into consideration. Firstly, this will include possible asset forfeiture rather than waiting for long criminal justice processes; and secondly, we will ensure that we institute possible civil claims whilst we are waiting for other processes to unfold as well. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Speaker, hon Minister, is it possible to develop collaboration between you, your department and the Auditor-General to ensure that adequate processes are followed to avoid irregular expenditure, which is indeed due to inadequate processes. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, we certainly work regularly with the Auditor-General, but, more importantly, with the National Treasury, whose prime responsibility is to manage matters financial in this regard. We will continue with our efforts to improve this particular area. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr M HLENGWA: Speaker, hon Minister, you have touched on the issue of consultants, but I want to zoom in on the R695 million spent on consultants in the preparation of financial statements for the Auditor-General. Firstly, I want to find out whether, in that particular area of the preparation of those financial statements, the expenditure was justified; and secondly, what interventions, particularly in this area of the preparation of financial statements, you are going to be putting in place to ensure that money does not continue to be paid out as it is being paid out now? I am not saying we should be against consultants, but the figure of R695 million is certainly not justifiable when municipalities should in fact have the necessary skills, capacity and knowledge in order that they could do those things in-house. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The hon Hlengwa is absolutely right, and thank you for correcting my numbers; it is R695 million that was spent on the preparation of annual financial statements.
Firstly, it is not justifiable, and we should be hiring competent people, but we know that in many instances people either grow into competency or they are inappropriately appointed to their positions. As I indicated in my earlier answer, there are measures being taken to work people who are not competent out of the system; and secondly, as I also indicated, we will ensure that those who are providing these services do so in the right way — that they strengthen the hand of officials within the system – and that this competency is actually built in municipalities themselves. Annual financial statements are basic statements of account that a financial officer should be able to complete. Thank you.
Mr K J MILEHAM
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr K J MILEHAM: Hon Speaker, its Mileham, like Malema, but without the “a”. [Laughter.] Minister, given that over R800 million of fruitless and wasteful and fruitless expenditure was incurred by municipalities during the audit period, and a further R11,6 billion in unauthorised expenditure, both of which are an increase on the previous financial year, it cannot truly be said that there has been an improvement in the audit outcomes.
An HON MEMBER: Shocking!
Mr K J MILEHAM: Minister Shiceka touted Operation Clean Audit 2014 – this document that I have in my hand – as a solution, and Minister Baloyi promised that the local government turnaround strategy would solve all the problems.
An HON MEMBER: Another one!
Mr K J MILEHAM: Minister, the question is: How different is your back-to-basics strategy from the previous empty promises of your predecessors?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Firstly, hon Speaker, as hon Malema version two ... [Laughter.] ... knows quite well, we are just 14 weeks into the new administration; secondly, he also knows that we have explained to him and others the change in accounting standards that has taken place and that has increased the complexity of the way in which financials are to be reported; thirdly, he is also aware of the fact that unauthorised expenditure can in fact be authorised through the appropriate processes, so numbers themselves shouldn’t actually frighten people. It is the underlying issues that are far more important. Finally, all I can say to the hon Malema version two is just to give us a few months and we will see what we can do to improve on the performance of this government. [Interjections.] Playing politics with this issue doesn’t quite help. [Interjections.]
Mr A M MATHLOKO
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr A M MATLHOKO: Madam Speaker, in view of the Minister and the President calling this disastrous performance of municipalities an improvement, why are municipalities so glaringly incompetent?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, it is useful to remind ourselves that whilst our constitutional democracy is 20 years old, democratic local government is 14 years old; secondly, many of the institutional mechanisms, whilst being there at the foundation stage, need to be built on and built on carefully as we go ahead; and thirdly, there are many municipalities work well. In fact, more than half do work well. There are many others that are challenged, and part of our collective responsibility, certainly ours in the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, is to ensure that over the next five years we significantly improve the performance of these municipalities; and that’s what we intend to do. Thank you.
Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon Minister spoke about “Malema version two”. Could he please explain what “Malema version two” is, or which Malema he was referring to? [Laughter.] Is he referring to the hon member or is there another Malema? Could he please explain himself?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that is really not a point of order. We now come to Question 129, that has been asked by the hon K J Mileham to the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
QUESTION 129/ MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS/The SPEAKER
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Question 129/The MINISTER CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 129:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, hon Mileham has to give us lessons in pronunciation, and he knows that. [Interjections.] Let’s get to his question. The Department of Water and Sanitation will undertake maintenance and repair work at the water treatment plant supplying water to the Emalahleni Local Municipality. This will start on 29 September 2014 and will last for a period of 18 days.
During this period, the municipality will be experiencing water shortages in the area, including Ganala, comprising the communities of Kriel and Thubelihle. Until the supply of the treatment works is sorted out, the municipality has put a budget and a contingency plan in place to continue with the provision of water to the affected areas. The municipality is going to install storage capacity of about 40 JoJo tanks of 5 000 litres each in strategic areas identified by the municipality. The municipality will use 20 or more water trucks to keep these tanks full to maintain and sustain a 24-hour water supply, and the public in this area has been appropriately informed, I am advised. Thank you.
An HON MEMBER: No water for three weeks!
Mr K J MILEHAM
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr K J MILEHAM: Speaker, as my colleague has commented: no water for three weeks. Minister, it has been reported that this maintenance work will also affect the towns of Davel and Ermelo in Msukaligwa Local Municipality, as well as the power stations of Camden, Kriel, and Kendal. It may also have a delaying effect on the construction work at Kusile Power Station. My question is then: What has been done to mitigate the effects of this water outage on electricity supply to the national grid, especially in light of the limited reserves currently available to Eskom and the country?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, that is pure speculation, as the hon member knows. So, what we will do is get him the information that he requires in respect of the power stations are offline, but I am confident that the national Department of Water and Sanitation has taken the appropriate measures. However, if he is feeling a bit anxious about these matters, he is welcome to approach me. [Interjections.]
Mr M L W FILTANE
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr M L W FILTANE: Speaker, hon Minister, the Auditor-General’s 2012-13 report on municipalities shows an increase in fruitless and wasteful expenditure, an increase of 31%, of which 41% is attributed to the Eastern Cape’s municipalities alone. This includes the infamous King Sabata Dalindyebo Local Municipality, where more than R7 million was reported to have been spent irregularly, without authority ... [Interjections.] ... fruitlessly. My question is: What is the department’s plan to deal with the Auditor-General with regard to the intended internal controls to root out the causes? Are there any new timelines? I heard you a little earlier, but I didn’t hear you talking in the context of timelines to ensure clean audits of all municipalities, seeing that the 2014 targets have not been met. I thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, firstly, perhaps in the House, we need to clarify each other on this concept of “clean audit”. There is technically no such concept. We might have flouted it at a particular point in time when what we were doing was announcing our intent to make sure that there is proper financial accountability. There is a combination of factors that constitute a “clean audit”, of financial regulations being met, on the one hand, and certain performance targets being met in terms of the evidence provided by municipalities, in this instance, to the Auditor-General.
Secondly, we cannot set deadlines, because this is a massive task that we are talking about, but we will give you progress reports on how we intend to get to a point where there are satisfactory levels of performance in this particular regard. You are welcome to question us, but in particular the municipalities in this regard.
Thirdly, some of the practices that some of the municipalities, particularly in the Eastern Cape that you have talked about, have demonstrated in the recent past, like excessive overtime, are totally unacceptable. Both the Treasury and we will have to take much harsher measures to make sure that public funds are spent properly. At the moment, I believe that our consequence management is weak and as a result people on the ground believe, whether they are officials or politicians in municipalities, that they have all the latitude in the world to misspend public funds. We will do everything possible in the near future to ensure that they get the right idea about how to spend public funds.
Mr A M MUDAU
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr A M MUDAU: Speaker, through you to the hon Minister, as the ANC, we would like to know how you plan to monitor the filling of the JoJo tanks to ensure that the community is not without water at any time, as we know that during the elections some parties like the EFF and the DA used this as a strategy for their campaigns. Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, firstly, it is the task of us in the ANC to make sure that we do not give the other parties the opportunity to abuse these sorts of issues. [Interjections.] Secondly, as Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we are establishing a 24-hour monitoring centre, which will enable us to keep an eye on every municipality in due course. It is being set up at the moment, but within the next three to four months, we will be able to monitor what goes on in broad terms in respect of crucial services in each of the municipalities. Thirdly, as part of the political process, it is understandable that every little weakness is to be exploited in order to gain political advantage. [Interjections.] Hoever, we might regret that at some stage. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Ms A MATSHOBENI
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Speaker, Minister, what is the cause of this water outage? What is the explanation for this long-term outage plan? Didn’t you see it coming? I thank you. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, you cannot see everything coming, so there are ... [Interjections.] ... there are many instances where there are weaknesses in municipalities that will have to be rectified over time. So, if the hon member wants to know a little bit more, I suggest that she approaches the mayor of Emalahleni and ask those questions. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, on a point of order: If Ministers are going to come here when we ask them questions and they refer us to the mayors, then what is the purpose of this exercise? I mean, he is extremely out of order. He must answer the question and stop referring us to the mayors. He has access to the mayors. He is a Minister, and therefore he must be the one to ask the mayors to come and account here. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, do you want to say something?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, to the extent possible, one does account here. I don’t think I need any lessons in that regard at this point in time. All I am saying is that when we get into the minutiae, the minor detail, don’t expect us to know all. Come back to us and ask us to find out, and we will certainly come back to you. It is not a problem. We are not in a position ... [Interjections.] Madam Speaker, you know, there are some basics about our constitutional order that perhaps all of us need to learn. In Chapter 3, our Constitution says that government is organised in three spheres. [Interjections.] There is a particular arrangement in terms of which those three spheres work. So, whilst making political capital might be easy, we might actually have to learn a bit more about the Constitution before we raise this issue. [Applause.]
QUESTION 109/The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Question 129/The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 109:
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, the National Youth Development Agency actively engages with all spheres of government to ensure the co-ordination and mainstreaming of youth development initiatives across all spheres of government. To this end, the NYDA convenes an Inter-Departmental Committee on youth affairs, where youth directorates meet both nationally and provincially.
During such IDC meetings, youth development priorities are discussed, including strengthening of the support to local youth offices and the optimal utilisation of such channels. The Minister intends to encourage and persuade all government departments to establish youth directorates, and to partner with the NYDA on large-scale youth development programmes, as we are doing with the Department of Human Settlements and the NYDA’s Youth Build programme, the Department of Higher Education and Training and the NYDA’s Solomon Mahlangu Scholarship Fund programme.
Within the local government sphere the NYDA has deliberately concluded partnership agreements with metro, district and local municipalities for the establishment and hosting of local youth offices. The partnership agreement between the NYDA and municipalities provides for regular steering committee meetings, joint research activities and co-branding of local youth offices.
Local youth offices are also at times launched during public events in communities to increase awareness of its existence, purpose and the products and services that the youth can access at these offices.
In addition, the NYDA makes presentations to inter-governmental relations Fora to further popularise the local youth office concept and to lobby for the support of local government leaders. A directory of local youth offices has been published on the NYDA’s website.
The establishment of NYDA offices in rural areas is indeed a goal. The NYDA has been establishing local youth offices for the past five years with a particular bias to rural areas.
During the current financial year, the NYDA will establish a further 15 local youth offices, with a particular focus on Limpopo, the North West, the Free State and the Northern Cape as these provinces have the lowest number of local youth offices, whilst these provinces have a particular rural character.
The NYDA is in negotiations with the Thulamela Local Municipality about the establishment of a full-services branch in Thohoyandou in partnership with the Municipality. The NYDA currently has 14 full-service branches, and 217 local youth offices. In its five-year strategic plan, the NYDA committed to the establishment of 289 NYDA access points to provide youth development information to 4,6 million young people to ensure that the youth in the country have access to information that will assist them with improving their livelihoods. [Applause.]
Ms R M M LESOMA
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Ms R M M LESOMA: Madam Speaker, the ANC acknowledges the efforts initiated by your department regarding the accessibility of the NYDA’s programmes to all departments and directorates. Is a model for this initiative in place, or is research ebing done?I If not, when does the department intend to establish such a model?
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: We are currently visiting all the offices of the NYDA, and we have asked the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation to develop a tool to help us assess the impact of the current branches of the NYDA and also the local youth offices. Subsequent to that, we will do a needs analysis in order to ensure that where-ever we build NYDA offices they have the necessary impact.
In fact, the general problem that young people have is accessibility, and that is why we are focusing on access to NYDA services. Thank you. [Applause.]
Dr M J CARDO
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The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
Dr M J CARDO: Madam Speaker, given that the NYDA, hon Deputy Minister, currently spends almost half of its R480 million grant on salaries, and given its R195 million track record of wasteful and irregular expenditure, do you support the agency’s request for an additional R200 million in funds in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework? If so, can you shed light on the intended purpose of these funds, and what guarantees can you give that the money won’t be blown on kissing competitions and the like? [Applause.] [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, the NYDA has been instructed to develop a turnaround strategy to the effect that they would be reducing their wage bill. [Interjections.] The 50% wage bill of the NYDA was a result of a merger between the Umsobomvu Youth Fund and National Youth Commission.The memorandum of agreement of the merger was that no employee of either organisation would lose their jobs. And in that is why the NYDA’s wage bill was that high.
Since its formation we have always insisted that the budgetary needs of the NYDA, for them to be able to meet the needs, interests and aspirations of young people, we would be a budget of more than R1 million. [Interjections.] We undoubtedly support the current budgetary needs and request by the NYDA to Treasury, and we are working together with Treasury to ensure that we find ways and means to cover their most immediate needs.
There have also been changes in relation to the financial management of the NYDA, from huge amounts reflected in findings by the Auditor-General, to much less than R15 million in the last financial year. We, however, believe that a lot more needs to be done in order to achieve a turnaround.
Most of the money that has been requested is for the local youth offices and the branches that I spoke about earlier. Over and above that, some of the money is to go to the grants that the NYDA is giving out to youth enterprises, which in our view is making a huge difference. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M HLENGWA
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, the reality, is that whilst you speak about this very nice number of offices, young people in this country do not know where to find the NYDA. It is conspicuous in its absence, and that has been the case ever since it was formed back in 2009. Now the problem has been further compounded by the fact that the provincial advisory boards have not been renewed and there is a view that they are not going to be renewed.
So, the first point, Deputy Minister, is what links you are going to be creating between the national office of the NYDA and these local offices that you are speaking about, which you are yet to establish. Secondly, could you tell us whether you are satisfied with the capacity of the national office, and whether the local offices will have the capacity to meet the collective needs of young people.
Lastly, there is the continuous issue of wasteful expenditure, going as far back as the kissing festival to the amount of R106 million in 2010. How are you going to sort that out, because the perception out there is that the NYDA is failing and you have a responsibility, whether it is there or not, to make it work? With each passing day the perception is becoming reality.
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, we take a lot from perceptions, although perceptions are not in all instances a reflection of the reality. In many instances, because of the history of those who were part of the decision-making concerning the NYDA, many of the decisions that were made were not, to a certain extent focused on the advancement of the needs, interests and aspirations of young people. That is why we believe that what is happening now in the NYDA is change, and that change has been witnessed by many young people.
However, just to be specific, we are currently undertaking a review of the National Youth Policy 2014, and also a review of the Integrated Youth Development Strategy. All of this will inform the type of legislative framework and institutions that we should put in place at national level and also at provincial levels, which will then inform whether we still need provincial advisory boards or not.
In our view, we must expand the structure of the NYDA at the lowest level possible, and that means expanding local youth offices. There are currently more than 220 local youth offices, as I said in the initial response, but we need more of those. We need the presence of youth service products, as driven by the NYDA, in each and every available space in this country so that we improve that accessibility. That is why most of our efforts are now targeted at not only expanding, but also profiling the services and presence of NYDA offices.
On Monday, I was at the Port Elizabeth NYDA branch. Of course, there are problems, there are challenges, but we think that we need to resolve all of those challenges. That is what we will also be doing in the near future to ensure that the services that the NYDA provides are accessible.
Concerning the issue of the kissing festival, we think that that is a matter of history. The people who were responsible for ensuring that a very legitimate festival, the World Festival of Democratic Youth, was turned into a kissing festival are today sitting here as the Economic Freedom Fighters. [Laughter.] So, there is no fear or doubt that the issue of kissing at our festivals is a matter for history. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon Gardee?
Mr G A GARDEE: The hon Deputy Minister Manamela appears to be very economical with the truth. [Interjections.] It is unparliamentary to refer to hon members in this Parliament in that way, and claim that they were responsible for the kissing festival. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Gardee! Please leave alone the issue of the kissing festival.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, we are objecting to that.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, what are you rising on?
Mr J S MALEMA: I am rising on the misinformation.
The SPEAKER: No, there is no such a point of order. [Laughter.]
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
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The SPEAKER
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Madam Speaker, Deputy Minister, what will you do to ensure that the NYDA is depoliticised and gives benefits all South African youth regardless of their political affiliation?
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, as I said in response to the previous question, although perceptions are important, sometimes they are not a reflection of reality. There is a perception out there that the role of the NYDA and its services are intended for young people of a particular youth affiliation.
That is definitely not true. All young people should go to the NYDA local youth offices to access the services of the NYDA, irrespective of their political affiliation.
If there are any young people who believe or suspect that they have not been provided with NYDA services on the basis of their political affiliation, there are avenues to pursue, including the Presidential Hotline, or lodging a complaint, including writing directly to me, my Office or the Office of the Minister, so that we can handle their complaints.
QUESTION 108/The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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QUESTION 109/The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
Question 108:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, is collaborating with the Public Service Commission, PSC, with regard to monitoring declarations of financial interest by senior management service members. The objective of this collaboration is to reinforce the efforts of the PSC to work towards 100% compliance. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation obtains compliance reports from the PSC and presents these regularly to the Forum of South African Directors-General to bring this compliance issue to the attention of the top management of government.
In addition, our department carries out annual assessments of the quality of management practices in all national and provincial government departments, which include an assessment of compliance, with the requirement that members of the senior management service declare their financial interests.
The prohibition of public servants doing business with the state is in the Public Administration and Management Bill, which is currently awaiting the President’s signature. Once this Bill becomes law, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation will engage with the Public Service Commission regarding possible collaboration with regard to compliance monitoring. Thank you.
Ms R M M LESOMA
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, how do you intend ensuring that the business as usual mode of slow improvement in compliance is speeded up? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, this will be done through monitoring. I can report to this House that in the 2009 financial year, there was about 47% compliance by SMS members. But because of the monitoring by the PSC and the department, at this moment in time, it is around 84%. Therefore, with the promulgation of this law, we will be able to improve this to 100%.
Ms H O MAXON
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, section 31 of Chapter 7 of the Public Service Act reads as follows, and I quote:
If a supply chain management official or other role-player or any close family member, partner or associate of such official or other role-player has any private or business interest in any contract to be awarded, that official or other role-player must disclose the interest and withdraw from participating in any manner whatsoever in the process relating to that contract.
Despite such straightforward legislation, why does the practice involving senior and non-senior ANC relatives, who benefit by association, still continue unabated?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: If the hon member has that information, not only of ANC members, but also in general of members of the Public Service, you are obliged to report it to law enforcement agencies and to the Public Service for disciplinary action as well as criminal investigation. [Applause.]
Mr S C MOTAU
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, with reference to the declaration of financial interests, according to the Auditor-General’s report, municipal employees, councillors, their close relatives and other civil servants raked in more than half a billion rand in municipal tenders during the 2012-13 financial year.
Does the hon Minister support the principle that close relatives, not just the spouse of a public servant, should be required to make a full disclosure of their financial interests; if not, why not? If yes, what concrete steps will the Minister take to ensure that this requirement is implemented?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Speaker, I have indicated that this House has passed the public Administration Bill, which is now before the President. Once it becomes law what you as lawmakers have decided - will be executed to the fullest extent of the law.
Mr N SINGH
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, I would just like to know if the hon Minister is aware of how many senior managers have to date not declared their financial interests. I am asking this in the context of what is called the “cooling-off period”.
It is common knowledge, and we have seen in the past, that many senior managers in the government leave government departments, they become directors on boards of certain companies, and concluding tenders with government. Will some regulation or law ensure a cooling-off period so that if one leaves the government service as a senior manager, that person cannot become a director of a state-owned enterprise. Some of them are directors of SOEs, and so on.
This also applies to members of the executive. We have had it in the past where they are on boards as soon as they leave government. Is there going to be some concept of a cooling-off period that would prevent this kind of thing from happening?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Speaker, on the first part of your question, I did indicate that in the 2013-14 financial year about 84% of SMS members have declared their financial interests. So, the concept of a cooling-off period will be determined, in terms of whether it is contained in this Bill that the hon members have passed in this august body.
QUESTION 131/The MINSITER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY
QUESTION 108/The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Question 131:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, the answer to Question 131 is as follows. No, we have not had a review. Relevant details in the light of the first, (a) not applicable and (b) not applicable. [Interjections.]
Ms S V KALYAN: What kind of answer is that? That’s not an answer!
Ms N I TARABELLA MARCHESI: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, there were 127 complaints of domestic violence rule contraventions committed by SA Police Service members. Only 3% of those cases were completed and resulted in disciplinary convictions. The Civilian Secretariat for Police found that SAPS members did not know how to implement the Act, let alone the steps to take to assist complainants. To top it all, 42 domestic violence acts were committed by government police officers – the very people who are supposed to protect us.
Hon Minister, vulnerable women are being failed by this government. Why is this government not taking the scourge of domestic violence seriously?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Deputy President. This ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr I OLLIS: It’s the Deputy Speaker, not the Deputy President. [Interjections.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: You are the authority on everything!
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Mr Maynier, it is as if you are the authority on everything. You have just become one of those hecklers in this House. You must grow up. [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, the issue we are raising today on the points raised by hon Marchesi ... This is a new department, hon Marchesi. It has been restructured, and given a new mandate. The issues you have raised and your question, which spoke of a review ... How do we review, when we are restructuring and defining and coming up with a strategy that intends to do just that?
Also, the issues you are raising in this House are issues that are directly related to the Justice cluster, and we are going to work with them to make sure that all issues that deal with violence against women are addressed by the police, by communities or by any other individual in society. We are going to focus on all those issues.
It is not only the Domestic Violence Act that we have to review. We have to look at the value chain if we want do justice to women and children in this country. Thank you. [Interjections.] Fatty boom-boom!
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, firstly, while the Domestic Violence Act has interdepartmental and intersectoral implementation implications, and while the crimes with which it deals are better prevented than cured, does the current funding mechanism – if there is any – include prevention funding?
Secondly, is there a parliamentary intersectoral committee responsible for oversight over this Act, and if not, why not? What would be the way forward?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, when it comes to the issue of various departments, there are interdepartmental task teams that work on these issues. The Justice and Crime Prevention cluster does work on the issue to which you refer. The mechanisms to which you refer are found in various departments. If you look at the Department of Social Development, you will see it has processes and shelters for victims of domestic violence against women and children at various points. If you look at the Justice cluster itself, you will see there are trauma centres through the NPA, or Thuthuzela Centres, that are part of that.
The issue you raises about prevention ... you must know that issues of domestic violence, there are those that are committed behind closed doors, and there are also those that are committed in the public space, which I agree we can deal with. We also have to deal with societal attitudes towards women and children. If we are unable to address the issue of attitudes at various points, we will not be able to defeat this particular process.
One issue that I need to raise is that this particular scourge is not just about the police; it is a societal problem. It needs all of us to play a role in making sure that we fight and prevent violence against women and children. [Applause.]
Mrs D ROBINSON
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Mrs D ROBINSON: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the Civilian Secretariat for Police found that when it came to helping complainants of domestic abuse to find a suitable shelter, most police stations indicated that they struggled, as there are few shelters. In some areas, especially rural areas, shelters are non-existent.
What are the details of your engagement with the Minister of Social Development and with any other Ministers who can assist with addressing this issue and, if not, why not?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, if not, why not? And yes, not. Hon member, the issues of violence...
Mr I M OLLIS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I’m sorry, I must object. This Minister is beyond the pale. She has called me overweight, and she is now teasing the person asking the question. Those remarks are inappropriate in this House of Parliament.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Are you overweight? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, in future, do not do that. You do not rise and speak unrecognised. You are out of order. You can’t just rise and speak in a way that is disorderly. You must wait to explain on what point you are rising. Please, I nearly described what this place is not. You know what it is not! I hope you appreciate that.
Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What point are you rising on, hon member?
Mr I M OLLIS: I take your point, Deputy Speaker. I apologise for speaking before you had recognised me. I take that back. However, you have not addressed my point. The Minister is insulting people on this side of the House. I ask you please to address her.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please proceed, hon Minister. [Interjections.] We will come back to you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. About the issue of shelters in Gauteng, hon member, I agree with you that there might not be enough. You also need to bear in mind that what the police are doing,for instance, reviving the family units, which is part of the process. As you correctly say, we need to look at much stronger mechanisms as this Ministry to make sure that we improve the co-ordination between the various stakeholders, not only government. We need civil society, which deals with these particular issues so as to make sure that we strengthen the mechanisms that intend to address matters of violence against women and children.
Ms M R MOROTUA
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Ms M R MOROTUA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, given the department’s recent review of its mandate, and the review of policies and programmes concerning women, will this include a review of the role of the National Council Against Gender-based Violence in ending gender-based violence?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, we will indeed be reviewing various mechanisms and processes that exist to make sure that we can reflect on whether they are effective.
But, to what extent are we as government not duplicating responsibilities? What is key now is to make sure that we are able to pool our resources in a much more co-ordinated manner to fight the scourge of domestic violence. One of those institutions would indeed be the National Council Against Gender-based Violence. At this point, we think that some of what it does currently resides with Social Development, while other functions reside with the NPA. So, it does call on us to look at that again and at how best we can reposition it to be more effective in the fight against domestic violence.
QUESTION 139/ The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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QUESTION 131/ The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY
Question 139:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the former Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs tabled a report to the council of the Madibeng Local Municipality in 2012. In respect of the implementation of the report, I am informed that the municipality, in terms of regulations of the Disciplinary Code and Procedures for Senior Managers Draft Regulations, appointed a firm of attorneys to investigate the allegations against the municipal manager, the chief operating officer, and the acting director of corporate support services, as contained in the ministerial task team’s report. All three officials were placed on precautionary suspension.
The attorneys furnished the report to the acting municipal manager on 1 August 2014, which recommended that disciplinary action be instituted against the three officials. The report was subsequently tabled before the council on 21 August 2014, which resolved that the acting municipal manager should be given full delegated powers to institute action against the affected officials and appoint an independent presiding officer and prosecutor to proceed with the action. The acting municipal manager has since appointed the prosecutor and presiding officer, and the prosecutor will proffer and serve charge sheets on the affected officials within 30 days of his appointment. The date for the hearing will then be determined.
The council removed the speaker, and he is now serving as an ordinary councillor. A multiparty committee was established to investigate the allegations contained in the ministerial task team’s report against the speaker. The multiparty committee is still to report to the council on its findings. The mayor is responsible for submitting and tabling that report to council. At this stage, I am not aware of the progress made in this regard. The council also resolved to extend the secondment and the acting position of the municipal manager to enable him to finalise the disciplinary proceedings, and that extension expires on 30 November 2014.
In respect of the Special Investigating Unit report, the SIU has not yet presented the final report on irregularities in the North West municipality. A preliminary report was presented to the former Premier of the North West. The final report is still being awaited. Thank you.
Mr A M MATLHOKO
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, these investigations have taken too long – three years, which is a disgrace – whilst the Nkandla report took only a month. Hon Minister, what specific action will you take, as Minister, to deal with this big problem of corruption in the North West province?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker and hon Matlhoko, we agree. If it took three years, and I haven’t been in this position for three years, it is too long. Secondly, we agree that more must be done, as I said in earlier responses, about the question of corruption and fraud.
In this regard, what we have done is to establish a joint committee between the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the North West province. That committee is reviewing the position of all the municipalities in the North West. We will then establish either what kind of supportive action needs to be taken or what form of enforcement action needs to be taken to rectify the situation in different municipalities depending on their circumstances.
Mr E M MTHETHWA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr E M MTHETHWA: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. Minister, I want to know whether, now that the task team has been put in place, any progress has been made regarding this and how much progress has been made as the matter has been in progress for some time. Thank you for the answer that there is a team already working on it.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the task team I referred to is less than two weeks old. It will report to me within the course of the next week, and then we will determine further action with the premier.
Mr L J BASSON
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr L J BASSON: Deputy Speaker and Minister, firstly, I have the report with me. This report was finalised in February 2013, and not in 2012, as you had mentioned. Furthermore, the report only served until the end of last year in the municipality, and there is still no progress. Minister, the ministerial task team report on Madibeng dated, as I mentioned, February 2013 notes that historically the Public Investment Corporation loan is the main contributor to the poor financial state of this municipality. The outstanding amount now exceeds R670 million. The municipality is crying out for help, and no-one appears keen to listen. This is not in the spirit of co-operative governance. Could the Minister answer us as to what he intends to do? Otherwise, he should step aside so that the DA could hand this report to the Public Protector. [Time expired.][Interjections.]
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the hon member is well within his rights to take as many steps as he likes to the Public Protector and hand over the report. I do not know why he thinks we will be scared of that proposition. I said very clearly that we are reviewing all the municipalities. We will look into all of those reports. Those things that haven’t been done will be done. It won’t happen tomorrow morning, but it will happen at some stage. [Interjections.]
Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, I am covered.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister, your resolve, hon Minister, to fight corruption must be commended. What is the hon Minister going to do about the reported corruption in the following municipalities: Mkhanyakude, Zululand, and Vhembe in Limpopo? I thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, in the first instance, it is the responsibility, in the three-sphere system of governance that I outlined earlier, of the municipal council to make sure that they take responsibility for whatever mishaps there are, even if it is corruption in the financial sense. Secondly, we will look at those municipalities and, if the hon member wishes to, we can talk to him later, once we have the information – because these are new questions that are not related to Madibeng – and let him know what our plans of action would be. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the time for supplementary questions has expired. Outstanding replies, as usual, will be printed in the Hansard. [Interjections.] Sorry? My apologies, hon members. We will now go the question asked by hon Mthethwa to the Minister to the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
QUESTION 116/ The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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QUESTION 139/ The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 116:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the development of informal settlements or slums is an indication of the pressing need for accommodation in urban areas. This, of course, is part of a global phenomenon and a South African one, where urbanisation is an increasingly important trend, and the migration of people to city centres for economic opportunities is equally important. It therefore reflects insufficient planning for growth at local government level, on the one hand, either through migration or normal population growth at local government level, and also increased pressures that could not be anticipated on the other.
The department, working in partnership with other stakeholders, is developing an integrated urban development framework which should be announced soon. The objective is to provide a framework that would assist municipalities and other role-players to manage and respond to the pressures of urbanisation.
The integrated urban development framework stresses the importance of long-term spatial planning that should provide for future growth of towns and cities, and the creation of sustainable human settlements. In addition, the department will also be working more closely with the Department of Human Settlements to ensure that the informal settlement upgrade programme is supported and integrated into the integrated development plans of municipalities.
The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is also part of the government team working on the mining towns revitalisation programme, led by Minister Radebe, where we ensure, amongst others, that this government-wide initiative is included in municipalities’ IDPs. We will also continue to work with other stakeholders to ensure that the various towns and cities perform optimally, thereby contributing to the social and economic development of the country.
Currently, the department does not have direct urban renewal and regeneration programmes. However, as the co-ordinating department, we collaborate with sector departments, such as the Department of Public Works, on the integrated small towns’ revitalisation programme. The department is also playing a leading role in the special presidential task team on mining revitalisation, as I indicated earlier, and that is co-ordinated by Minister Radebe. Thank you.
Mr E M MTHETHWA
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Deputy Speaker, Minister, how soon do you think these envisaged programmes of the integrated urban development framework will take place?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the President announced that he was convening a local government summit on 18 September. At that summit the integrated urban development framework will be launched, and it would probably take another six months before we can, practically, work out the implications of the IUDF for municipalities and their planning processes. So, over the next year or so, I would imagine we would begin to see more focused action being taken on proper spatial development plans within the framework of the IUDF, and that will enable municipalities to anticipate future developments and plan for them.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Deputy Speaker, Minister, development architects and town planners often argue that there will be no urban development without rural development, and that, where this happens, development only qualifies to be called a skewed urban population explosion and unregulated rural depopulation. What collaboration have you found between your department and Minister Nkwinti’s? What specific programmes have you found that require joint planning between the two, or are the two departments going on in silos? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker and hon member, no, we are not going on in silos. Firstly, in fact, within the governmental system, we have had a rural development framework for some time, as you know. What’s been missing is the urban development framework; secondly, as much as possible, we need to plan on the basis of our district architecture, so that both urban and rural plans are integrated into one; and thirdly, as we develop more macro infrastructure plans, in particular, based on those spatial plans, the kind of integration you anticipate will happen as well. So, I certainly agree with you. We can’t see these as elements of two different silos.
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, has this government planned adequately, firstly, for a rapid rate of urbanisation in and around metropolitan areas?
Secondly, has it ensured that the existing legal frameworks can accommodate this rapid rate of urbanisation, particularly in respect of land rights, as we believe that these two factors directly contribute to the growth and development of the so-called slums around our cities? Also, do the current urban planning models address the needs of all people equally? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker and hon member, our current approach does not cater for all people equally. That is why this balance between urban and rural on the one hand, and proper urban planning on the other, is absolutely crucial. We do have the foundations of all of these mechanisms in place. However, more needs to be done more dynamically and proactively in order to anticipate developments, rather than to react to them, and we need to enhance the frameworks that we have so that we can accommodate future trends.
Prof N M KHUBISA
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, Mr Minister, may I know whether there are any plans for Khayelitsha, Gugulethu and Langa with regard to slums clearance; and secondly, is there any database that you, as government, have for those people who have received their houses? It does happen that some of them will get houses and then go for the second innings. Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, as the hon Khubisa will know, that is a matter that the Minister of Human Settlements is best qualified to answer. So, I don’t have any statistical answers for you on what plans there might be as regards either of those questions. The question of waiting lists is certainly a big issue. Some municipalities do well. Others don’t, but perhaps the House should request the Minister of Human Settlements to address you on this matter.
Mr K J MILEHAM
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Speaker, following the initiation of a forensic investigation into allegations of maladministration and corruption in the implementation of the Bekkersdal Urban Renewal Programme to the tune of R1,2 billion, local co-operative governance and traditional affairs MEC, Jacob Mamabolo, said he wanted all parties involved in the renewal projects to declare their business interests in a special register. Does the Minister support such a special register for renewal programmes to prevent the collapse of future urban renewal programmes; and if so, how would he implement and enforce it?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, there should be transparency in every procurement process. In any situation, whether in the private sector or in the public sector, if there are interests to be declared, they should be declared, not only for renewal projects. So, absolutely, everyone should declare their interests on all sides, even hidden interests, which are often disguised in a sophisticated way and difficult to actually work through. However, the principle is one that all of us should accept and practise on a daily basis.
QUESTION 110: THE MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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QUESTION 116/The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 110:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the President has not as yet signed the performance agreements with Ministers or Deputy Ministers for the current term of office.
Cabinet has recently approved the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, for 2014 to 2019. The President will now start the process of entering into this agreement with his Ministers based on the finalised Medium-Term Strategic Framework.
It is envisaged that this process will be completed before the end of November 2014. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you for your response, Minister, as concerning as it is that they have not been signed. But you say they will be completed by the end of November 2014.
The bigger question now is, judging from past experience - and hindsight is the best sight - these agreements have been signed before and never saw the light of day and Ministers and Deputy Ministers have performed dismally and there is no yardstick to measure, on the part of this House, or assess whether they are doing the work as they are expected to.
We would like to find out: Will it be made public; and will this House actually have the benefit of receiving those agreements so that we can hold the executive to account, even to its own standards, in conjunction with the standards that we uphold in this House as well? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, Cabinet will be reviewing these performance agreements with Ministers three times a year and we are also going to be making sure that these reviews are published on the government website of the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation and obviously they will be made public in terms of the website. Thank you.
Mr S C MOTAU
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
Mr S C MOTAU: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister in the Presidency for responding to my question along similar lines, but let me quote from your response to me, which I received yesterday:
The way in which the President deals with the unsatisfactory performance of his Ministers is a matter between him and the Ministers.
The response goes on to say:
The President has previously indicated that the Ministers may make their performance agreements with him public if they so wish.
Now, Minister, that in my view implies a lack of transparency in this whole process. If the President is not willing to make these performance agreements available to the public, is the whole endeavour not just an elaborate public relations exercise to give an appearance of accountability, with no real consequences for the worst-performing Ministers?
HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, hon member, there is no reason to hide anything. What we are saying is that the reviews of the performance by Cabinet will be put on the website of the department. Obviously that will be public, but the decision about the performance of Ministers is between the Minister concerned and the President. I am sure you are aware that since 2009 the President has indeed taken action where there is a challenge in terms of performance.
Ms N P KHUNOU
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Ms N P KHUNOU: Deputy Speaker, thank you for your response to the question, Minister. It was my understanding that the President, in his state of the nation address on 17 June, said that each Minister will sign a performance agreement outlining what each department would do to deliver the programme of action.
This will be binding on all Ministers and it will be easier for the President to monitor what departments are doing. This will also improve service delivery.
This is a comment, Chairperson, and not a question. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I concur. [Laughter.]
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, if I may? We have only had three follow-up questions and the Rules state we are entitled to four. I know hon Motau would like to ask a follow-up question. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are hit by afterthoughts. I went to the next question because there were no names here. Now there are names because of that lightning afterthought. The next person on my list is hon Motau.
Mr S C MOTAU
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
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Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. Minister, the issue of these agreements is that it is a long-term process – five years in all. The problem that we have is that unless action is taken and there are consequences along the way, it means that a Minister can be in office for five years, even if he or she is performing poorly or not performing, because we do not know what Ministers discuss with the President.
We believe that a bit more transparency would be the right thing to do and we would like to hear what you believe you can do about that. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I did explain to you that the issue of performance is between the Minister and the President, and since 2009 the President had indeed taken steps where he felt that there was no performance within government. So I don’t know what else you want me to do. [Interjections.]
These performance agreements are for the five-year term and the Ministers themselves will in turn sign performance agreements with their directors-general.
QUESTION 114/ The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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QUESTION 110/The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
Question 114:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the Traditional Affairs Bill makes provision for the statutory recognition of the Khoi and San communities and leaders. For this purpose, the Bill contains specific criteria that have to be met by such communities and leaders. The Bill also makes provision for the establishment of KhoiSan councils for each recognised KhoiSan community. These councils will have functions similar to those of traditional councils.
To provide for the integration of the recognised KhoiSan leaders into institutions of traditional leadership, the Bill makes provision for recognised KhoiSan leaders to become members of the National House of Traditional Leaders, as well as the provincial and local Houses.
Cabinet approved the publication of the Traditional Affairs Bill for public comment in early September 2013, and the Bill was subsequently published in the Government Gazette on 20 September 2013. The date for comment was extended to 31 December 2013.
The Department of Traditional Affairs has analysed all the comments and made appropriate amendments to the Bill. It is anticipated that the Bill will be resubmitted to Cabinet for final consideration as soon as possible.
Mr N A MASONDO
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr N A MASONDO: Deputy Speaker, we note the progress made to date as the question of the Khoi and San traditional leadership and their integration into the relevant institutions of traditional leadership is very important and critical. We are looking forward to the tabling of the Bill in Parliament, and a meaningful engagement and robust debate before the end of this financial year. I would therefore like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for his response ... [Interjections.] ... and we are looking forward to the debate. Thank you very much. [Applause.][Interjections.]
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Noted, thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, one welcomes what the Minister has said, however, hon Minister, I would like to extend what has been asked with regard to the role of traditional leaders in general – that the Bill will probably cover; we are yet to see – particularly with regard to sections 7 and 12 of the Constitution, because we seem to be dilly-dallying about the integration of traditional leaders into the system. They are being reduced to second-class leadership of the country, and they are playing second fiddle to municipalities. So, I want to find out what resources were made available for traditional leaders to fulfill their duties and functions to the best of their ability.
Of course, the second issue is that the members on my right must not downgrade traditional leadership, because they were at the forefront of the struggle for our people to be free. So, just because we are free now, don’t undermine them and say that they must be reduced to what they are being reduced to now. That must not happen. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The question that hon Hlengwa raises is not pertinent to the original question asked, but let us say that what we as government has set ourselves as objective harmonising the relationship between traditional leadership structures and municipalities. In some parts of the country it works very well and very constructively, while in other parts perhaps more work needs to be done to harmonise their respective roles and functions. I certainly believe that if there is goodwill on all sides, we can get that harmonisation going sooner. Thank you.
Mr B M BHANGA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr B M BHANGA: Minister, the issue of the KhoiSan people is that they are indigenous people and the first people in South Africa. What made us take 20 years to reverse the imbalances of their traditional authority? Why has it taken the government so long to sign the International Labour Organisation’s Convention 169, which deals with indigenous and tribal peoples? Given the delays in the Bill, as you explained, why have we treated the KhoiSan people in this way, after two decades not having taken a firm decision in recognising them?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, let's focus on the future; I can’t explain the past. As hon Mthethwa pointed out, it’s important to note that ... [Interjections.] ... throughout the negotiation process leading up to the Constitution, the role of traditional leaders in our constitutional democracy has always been recognised. This is another important step in the right direction, to do what many parts of the world is doing, which is to recognise the first peoples. As the hon member pointed out, we also have the UN convention in this regard. So, the important thing is to try and process this Bill as soon as possible so that the KhoiSan leadership can join our leadership structures in the country.
Mr G A GARDEE
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the plight of the Khoi and San traditional leadership institution in the Western Cape, and any other traditional leadership institutions in the Western Cape, appears to be far from over in terms of being resolved. Could the Minister please tell the House how he intends to resolve the issue of traditional leadership institutions in the Western Cape province, and not only the issue of the Khoi and San? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: If the hon member would give me some details about his essential concerns, we could look at those issues, but in principle the Western Cape is but one province in South Africa; it is not the united democratic independent republic of the Western Cape. It is part of the Republic of South Africa and the laws of the Republic of South Africa must apply to be Western Cape as well, however much some of our colleagues think that this might not be the case. So, we will look at what the Western Cape’s deficiencies are, and if there are any, we will ensure that those deficiencies are rectified. [Interjections.]
QUESTION 134/The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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QUESTION 114/The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 134:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, we were wondering on this side whether there was a bonus for answering all these questions. [Laughter.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise to bring to your attention that relating to the previous question, we didn’t have the allocated number of people, but the hon Buthelezi did press the “to talk” button and it is still alight here next to me.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Four supplementary questions are allowed.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I thought I heard you say that there was nobody else and that is why you proceeded. So, one would understand that could be one more.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There were four and we are done with the four. Let us move to the next one. The Minister was answering.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, in the Budget Vote on 17 July 2014, we made the commitment to introduce certain so-called non-negotiables that should be implemented in all municipalities. We made a call that municipalities must spend at least 7% of their budget on infrastructure maintenance.
Operations and maintenance is a very complex area that does not only apply to repairing and maintaining infrastructure, it also involves municipalities having proper asset registers, maintenance plans as well as the relevant capabilities within the municipality to perform those functions.
As part of our Back-to-Basics campaign, municipalities will be required, and supported in this regard, to have these basic requirements in place. To enable municipalities to achieve our Back-to-Basics strategy, sector departments, such as Water and Sanitation, Roads, Transport, Energy, the Treasury, Public Works, Environmental Affairs and other sectors that are in the forefront of basic services provision will be required to play regulatory and policy roles. Sector departments will sometimes also play delivery roles in respect of setting the appropriate norms and standards.
We have set out, in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, Outcome 9, which is Responsive, Accountable, Effective and Efficient Developmental Local Government, as one of the key activities of sector departments for the next five years, with confirmation of service delivery norms and standards. These norms and standards include guiding standards in respect of operations and maintenance that municipalities will be required to comply with.
This will guide municipalities in their operations and maintenance requirements and also require them to budget for these activities. We will ensure that municipalities have basic skills, such as qualified and experienced plumbers, artisans, water and waste process controllers, mechanical engineers, electricians and so on.
An example of the support that has been given is where 56 skilled personnel were placed in Vhembe District Municipality on condition that the district finally absorbs them into their organisational structure after two years. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there any follow-up question. [Interjections.] Where is the Reverend? [Interjections.] He has left. Hon Buthelezi, I see your name here for a follow-up question. [Interjections.] My apologies, Shenge, I think this machine, this technology loves you too much today. It just picked up your name.
Mr M HLENGWA
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, Minister, yesterday we were in the portfolio committee with the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, to look into the issue of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, and one of the things they spoke about was putting a threshold of 5% of the MIG dispensation towards maintenance of infrastructure. We want to, firstly, find out whether that is in the pipeline, and the details around that. Secondly, we want to know whether measures have been put in place to detect when infrastructure must be renewed and sorted out, should it present problems, to avoid a situation where we are ill prepared and infrastructure just collapses, causing a lot of problems for communities. What mechanisms and measure have been put in place to ensure early warning signs to safeguard against that particular aspect of maintenance of infrastructure?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the hon member has raised an important set of questions. In some instances, the early warning system is in place, and in other instances it is not. It certainly is the intention of, for example, the Ministers of Water and Sanitation and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, firstly, to begin to improve the monitoring system. Secondly, it is their intention not to leave this to the autonomous mechanisms, either within provinces or municipalities themselves, and lastly, as I said earlier, we will create a national monitoring and response mechanism that will enable us hopefully to anticipate, but, certainly, to shorten the period of response to crises when they actually happen.
I can only reiterate what I have already said about the importance of maintenance because if we don’t maintain something today, its renewal or replacement will cost us a lot more in the future.
Mr E M MTHETHWA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRASITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Mr E M MTHETHWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, Minister, in your response, you covered the issue of the campaign called Back-to-Basics. I know that this campaign has not yet been discussed in our committee, but can you tell us what the Back-to-Basics programme entails. Surely you will also tell us when this strategy document will be brought for comments; for further discussion.
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRASITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, we outlined the Back to Basics approach in the Budget Vote speech. It is essentially saying that if all 278 municipalities have to perform their basic functions in respect of governance, service delivery, repairs, financial management and all of the core business functions of a municipality, we will be much better off than if they started engaging in fanciful exercises, without getting the basics in place. That is the key proposition.
The second is that we will have legislative mechanisms to reach these key performance indicators of municipalities.
Thirdly, we are exploring possibilities for enforcement or disincentives to be put in place, but perhaps incentives as well – incentives to perform better and disincentives to face the consequences of not performing along these lines.
This approach will be discussed at the local government summit that the President is convening, as I indicated earlier. Then we will certainly begin to engage with the parliamentary processes as well.
Mr K J MILEHAM
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The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr K J MILEHAM: Deputy Speaker, Minister, we saw last year in Makana Municipality in Grahamstown that MIG funding intended for the upgrading, maintenance and repair of the water infrastructure was used for operational expenditure of the municipality, including the salaries of officials and councillors. What steps will you take, firstly, to prevent the misuse of MIG funding for operational expenditure and, secondly, what steps will you take to recover such funding where it has been misused?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are in the process of putting in place a regulatory framework for the use of MIG funds.
Secondly, we are beginning to put in place legal instruments, which will enable us to – and we have experimented with that in the last 18 months - withhold the instalments of MIG funding, if certain basic compliance with the law is not met. It has produced interesting results as well.
Thirdly, we need to monitor MIG funding a lot more carefully, in terms of how it is spent, and that monitoring mechanism is being put in place now. Therefore, there will be some interesting developments over the next six months to provide more constraints on this kind of irresponsible action. We certainly agree with you that MIG funding should be spent on what it is supposed to be spent on.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
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Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Deputy Speaker, Minister, what infrastructure maintenance and development has your department prioritised? Can you outline the details of which areas are targeted and why they are prioritised?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, prioritisation happens at the municipal level, except where we are talking about, for example, bulk water supplies, where the prioritisation will happen through the Department of Water. That is all I can say at this point in time, unless the hon member indicates a little bit more precisely what information is required.
However, we would expect that the priority should be, firstly, old infrastructure that needs to be replaced and, secondly, midlife infrastructure that needs to be maintained so that its life can be extended and, thirdly, infrastructure that is required in terms of the new spatial plans and infrastructure plans in a municipality. Equally, I am sure, my colleague the Minister of Water will be able to outline what those plans mean at a bulk water level and beyond.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, thank you for your questions, and Ministers, thank you for your replies. The time for questions has now really expired. The outstanding replies will be printed in Hansard.
NOTICES OF MOTION
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QUESTION 134/The DEPUTY SPEAKER
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the Republic of South Africa’s contribution in the attainment of the African Union’s Agenda 2063.
Mr M S MBATHA
Mr B A RADEBE
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Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the cancellation of the National Financial Student Aid Scheme debts of poor graduates.
Mr M L W FILTANE
Mr M S MBATHA
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Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House notes that Brian Habana, who was born on 12 June 1983 in Benoni ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, this is the time for notices of motion. Are you okay?
Mr M L W FILTANE: My apologies, sir.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
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Mr M L W FILTANE
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House -
- notes -
- that on Sunday the Deputy Minister of Defence publicly stated, inter alia,: ‘I am going to give full details about the comments I made at the tombstone, including why I believe she was an agent of the CIA.’;
- further notes that the Minister’s response to media’s reporting of a statement in yesterday’s sitting of the House in which the Deputy Minister stated: ’I reject the allegations about what I said on Sunday.’
- refers the matter to the Powers and Privileges Committee to investigate whether the Deputy Minister deliberately misled Parliament, and make its findings and recommendations to the House by 10 March 2015.
[Applause.]
Mr M S MABIKA
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House debates the need for the establishment of Youth Business Advisory Centres or units in all municipalities.
Mr D L TWALA
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Mr M S MABIKA
Mr D L TWALA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates local beneficiation and industrialisation of South Africa’s mineral resources.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER
Mr D L TWALA
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Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates united action to strengthen border management through regional integration underpinned by human rights-driven immigration and asylum-providing systems.
Mr N L S KWANKWA
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Ms C C SEPTEMBER
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House debates the negative impact of inadequate resources allocated to the security forces, affecting their ability to discharge their constitutional mandate.
Dr H C VOLMINK
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Mr N L S KWANKWA
Dr H C VOLMINK: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the seemingly intractable barriers faced by emergency medical services in South Africa, and the limitations that these place on the rights that our citizens have to emergency medical treatment in terms of section 27(3) of the Constitution.
[Applause.]
Ms H O MAXON
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Dr H C VOLMINK
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House-
- notes that -
- the Khoi and the San have been proven to be amongst the oldest tribes on earth;
- the DNA of the majority of the people in the world can be linked with that of the Khoi and the San;
- Autshumato of the Goringhaicona tribe led the first war of resistance and was the first political prisoner imprisoned on Robben island
- the Khoi and the San fought the first anticolonial wars against the white settler community and paid the ultimate price for their heroic struggle;
- the Khoi and the San community, as a result of the great injustice meted out to them, are now on the verge of extinction;
- their language, culture and tradition are a heritage of global importance;
- moves for the House, in terms of the National Assembly Rule 241 and read in conjunction with the National Assembly Rule 138 -
- establish an ad hoc committee to enquire into the socioeconomic conditions of the San people;
- establish grounds for the rights of the Khoi and San children to be taught in their own language; and for this language to be recognised as one of the official languages of the country; the renaming of significant landmarks in the Western, Eastern and Northern Cape in Khoi and San names, consisting of eleven members as follows: ANC 6; DA 3; EFF 2; and other political parties 1;
- reports back to the House no later than 21 November 2014.
[Applause.]
Prof M N KHUBISA
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Ms H O MAXON
Prof M N KHUBISA: The Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House debates the problems of waste management and disaster management experienced by local municipalities.
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
Prof M N KHUBISA
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Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House-
- addresses the concerns raised and demands made in the petition delivered to Parliament by the National Protest for Palestine on 9 August 2014;
- affirms the position of what Madiba called ‘the greatest moral issue of our time’.
[Applause.]
Mr D W MACPHERSON
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Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates what is entailed in creating an enabling environment to create 11 million jobs by 2030, as envisaged by the National Development Plan, and what hurdles will stop South Africa from reaching this target;
Ms E N LOUW
Mr D W MACPHERSON
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Ms E N LOUW: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the cost of the tender system, the role of the state and its impact on service delivery.
Mr S MOKGALAPA
Ms E N LOUW
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Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-debates the role of nonstate actors in international relations and its impact on South Africa’s foreign policy.
Mr M Q NDLOZI
Mr S MOKGALAPA
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Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy President, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF ... [Laughter.]... I mean Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Mr M Q NDLOZI:
That the House debates the generally highly indebted black population to be removed from the credit bureau’s list.
[Applause.]
Ms T GQADA
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Mr M Q NDLOZI
Ms T GQADA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the underspending of the Rural Household Infrastructure Grant by municipalities.
Mr I A PIKININI
Ms T GQADA
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Mr I A PIKININI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates building consensus on how to deal with race, class and gender by reflecting on our development path and our socioeconomic system as a whole.
[Applause.]
Mr J A ESTERHUISEN
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Mr I A PIKININI
Mr J A ESTERHUISEN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the steadily escalating theft of electric cables in South Africa, which now costs this country over R4,5 billion per annum, and the measures that can be put in place by local and provincial governments to address this impediment to infrastructure development, which is so very critical to our country’s economic growth.
Mr R M TSELI
Mr J A ESTERHUISEN
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Mr R M TSELI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the importance of the establishment of the South African Post Bank.
Mr M WATERS
Mr R M TSELI
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Mr T R C WALTERS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-
- debates why the South African Football Association bought tickets for parliamentarians for tonight’s football match between South African and Nigeria; and
- develops a system to ensure that underprivileged children are recipients of these tickets in future rather than politicians, who can afford to pay for their own tickets.
[Applause.]
Mr M A MPONTSHANE
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Mr M WATERS
Mr M A MPONTSHANE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the effectiveness of subject advisers in the promotion of quality education and efficiency among educators.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it looks as if we can now move to the next section, Motions without notice.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE – Mr B A RADEBE
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
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Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, sir.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: In terms of Rule 93(G), all motions without notice should be presented only when there is concurrence and agreement amongst all political parties. We have indicated to all the political parties that we do not agree with any of the motions without notice that are going to be presented today. So, there is no need to present any motions without notice, because we have objected to all of them. [Interjections.] Please just take note. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Regarding Rule 93(G), we had agreement in the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning that we were going to adhere strictly to the Rules. The DA circulated its motions. We received no objection from any political party in the House, according to the Rules, and so we were unaware that our motions had been objected to.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, we did indicate in the Chief Whips’ Forum that we were going to object to all motions. He knows that very well – the Chief Whip of the Opposition – as does the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. [Interjections.] And we did object to all motions that are going to be tabled today. So that is what we did. I don’t know why we are being frustrated over a simple process that we engaged in. Please! There is no motion that has been agreed to, which can be tabled in this House, because we never agreed. We objected to all of them.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, you may.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, the Rules are very clear that where a party wishes to object, it must be done in writing. We circulated the motions, according to the Rules and conventions of this Parliament. We didn’t receive a single objection to any of our motions. Now, we can’t come to the House ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat first. Take your seat first.
Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let him finish. Let him finish. He is rising on a point of order, so you have to wait.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: If any party wished to object to the motions that were circulated, they could just have responded via e-mail to us, saying: “We reject your motions.” We have come to the House in good faith to put the motions that were circulated. In terms of the Rules and conventions, we have not received an objection.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We stand before this House to say that we have objected to the motions, and we did that in writing through e-mail. [Interjections.] We can even produce proof that we have objected. So, this is not going to change. This is of your own making, my brother. [Interjections.] So, taste your own medicine. Yesterday, you objected to our motions. We are teaching you a lesson. We are objecting. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, go ahead, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: First of all, the hon Malema has made an allegation in this House that he is my brother. [Laughter.] I wish to categorically and in no uncertain terms say that I am not related to the hon Malema in any way whatsoever. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. [Laughter.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Secondly, if the EFF don’t want to wish Bafana Bafana well tonight, that is their indaba.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, okay. Alright. Hon members ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What point are you rising on, hon member? You must explain yourself.
Mr J S MALEMA: Yes, Speaker. It is correct. The brother is correct. He is not my brother. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kwankwa?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, I am sure that as no objections were received regarding the motions without notice of the UDM, we are allowed to present them here. I suppose that what they are saying applies to other motions that they objected to. They didn’t reject any of our motions. Thank you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, we can show you the e-mail which we sent to all the representatives of political parties ... [Interjections.] ... to say that in terms of ... [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Show us the e-mail!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... section 97(G), there is supposed to be ...
HON MEMBERS: Show us the e-mail! Show us the e-mail! Show us the e-mail! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... unanimous concurrence on all motions. So we need to deal with that. Please! [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Show us the e-mail! Show us the e-mail!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order!
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Police, police, police! Police, please. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... [Inaudible.] ... recording ... we are going to speak. I can speak while they are still singing. There is no problem. It’s a good rhyme. They can sing, and then I will speak. The Rule says that before a motion is presented, there must be unanimous concurrence. There is no unanimous concurrence. We can show you the e-mail now, in which we said to all political parties that we were objecting to all the motions that are going to be tabled here today.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...
Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What point?
Mr J S MALEMA: I want to check if it is parliamentary for the DA to chant while a speaker is on the floor ... [Interjections.] [Applause.] ... when you have not adjourned or suspended the House, because the House is still in session, unlike the last time. [Interjections.] Is this parliamentary? I would like you to rule on that.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, it is unparliamentary always! Always! It is unparliamentary; it is wrong. You mustn’t do that. Hon Chief Whip?
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Deputy Speaker ... Deputy Speaker, if members of this House take action ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... Hon Mngxitama, you know that you must wait to be recognised. The Chief Whip rose to speak. Could you allow him to speak; then you can speak.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon Shivambu did give notice in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We agreed, collectively, including he, that as nobody had circulated, by that time, any motions to be read here ... We must circulate and then, after receiving the motions, they can object. As we received no objection, we are in the same boat as the UDM ... [Interjections.] ... that we will read ours. Would you allow us to do so?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mngxitama, you were going to speak. I will come back to the Chief Whip.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Deputy Speaker, you have just ruled that it is unparliamentary for members of the DA to howl and shout and chant. Now, there must be consequences for this kind of behaviour. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Therefore, all these disruptors must – each one - stand up and apologise to this House. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I’m not going to apologise, but I am going to say that this is what it feels like when the gumboot is on the other foot. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, do not make light of what may degenerate into inappropriate behaviour. I would suggest that we not do that. Hon Mngxitama, do not make rulings, sir. Don’t make rulings. The Chair makes rulings.
HON MEMBERS: The Chief Whips’ Forum ...
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Deputy Speaker, you yourself have said it is unparliamentary for members of this House to chant. Is that right?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I said: “Do not make rulings.”
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: But what did you say?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do not make rulings. The Chair will make rulings. [Interjections.]
Mr J A MNGXITAMA: We rose on a point of order that chanting is unparliamentary. Make a ruling, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, do not do that. Hon Shenge?
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Sir, I just want to be enlightened. Is it wrong for people in this House to be given a dose of their own medicine? [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, wait. Hon Minister, please go ahead.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Ndlozi, I hope you will listen to your leader in future. Do follow the Rules, as he has indicated.
Deputy Speaker, the nation is watching us. The people are watching us. We have been elected to this House to change the lives of the people of this country. What we are doing may seem very pleasant and amusing to some of us, but the majority of the people out there, who are crying out for all kinds of services from this House, require us to be serious. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order!
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I would like, Deputy Speaker, in terms of the Rules and the Constitution ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, what is she speaking on? Is that a point of order or is it an address to the House? If it’s the time for debate, we can debate; all of us. We must be cautioned first that there is going to be a debate and people are watching us.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not allowed to speak. I don’t understand why that microphone is on there, hon members.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But they are being addressed here in Parliament without following the proper procedure. She is rising in terms of which Rule?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are disrupting the House, and a member is on the floor, speaking. You are not allowed to do that. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I am rising and I have risen in terms of all the Rules of debate of this House, which we have breached. I am asking, Deputy Speaker, with respect to the Rule that is now causing us not to execute the role we have been mandated to execute here, that you, as a presiding officer, convene the Chief Whips’ Forum. It cannot be that we cannot present motions in the House. Therefore I wish to request you, in terms of the Rules and as one of the presiding officers who is to oversee the conduct of this House, that you actually meet with the Chief Whips and arrive at a position which allows us to carry out our executive and democratic role. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise in terms of Rules 46 and 47. It is becoming increasingly difficult for us hon members to hear other members of the House speak when members are conversing aloud in this House. I would like you to rule on that when the time arrives, hon Deputy Speaker. All of us have the right to hear and be heard, and I think that Rule should be applied.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think we could be setting a very dangerous precedent, that would actually make this House ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do indicate why you are rising, hon member.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I am coming to that. Hon Deputy Speaker, I am rising on the question that the disorder that we have arises from a different interpretation of the Rule, which means that the matter we are dealing with belongs to the Chief Whips’ Forum and not to this forum. So, I want to agree with the hon Naledi that you convene the Chief Whips’ Forum. These matters must be sorted out there, not in this House.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon Naledi intervened a day before ... the last sitting before yesterday’s sitting, in which she said: Allow people to read, even if we know we are going to object. And then yesterday, based on that precedent, we came here and were rejected. We want to agree with her again: Could you please go back and agree on how we are going to proceed, particularly on this matter? This is because I did indicate yesterday that if this is the attitude, we are going to have a crisis. Therefore let all of us go back and agree that this is the collective interpretation of this Rule. So, in that order, Deputy Speaker, we stand to second that yesterday’s interpretation stands until there is a common understanding. Therefore we will proceed on the basis of the outcome of such an interaction. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, having listened to you talk. It is correct that ...
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: A question, sir. I want to understand: two members, namely Dr Motshekga and the hon Mr Malema, have said the hon “Naledi”. Is it correct that the Minister should be referred to ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: By her first name.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: ... as Comrade Naledi ... may have been a comrade. I think that we should understand whether a Minister can be called hon “Naledi”, whatever friendship exists between them. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Minister ... “Minister Pandor”.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I withdraw; hon “Minister Pandor”.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you for the good behaviour, hon members. [Laughter.] I do wish to ... Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. While I have heard what the hon Pandor and the former Chief Whip have had to say, it is the duty of the presiding officer to ensure that the Rules of Parliament are upheld and that parties are protected and that their rights are protected.
The DA has complied with the Rules of Parliament. As discussed this morning, we submitted motions, much like the UDM and the ANC. They were circulated, as is the requirement. We have not received an objection to them. Now, our rights as a party ...
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Point of order ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... are being infringed upon ...
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Point of order ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... by not being allowed to move these motions without notice in this House. I would ask you to protect our rights ...
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Point of order ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... which allow us to move these motions.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Point of order ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Motshekga, please, man! I think it is only fair that members finish speaking before you do that. It helps the process if we do it that way.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: I want to ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon member. Speak.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are saying that the dispute before us arose in the Chief Whips’ Forum and therefore does not belong in this House. Now, the hon Chief Whip of the DA is raising the issue that we have already agreed should be dealt with in the Chief Whips’ Forum, which must be convened by you. [Interjections.] So, he is out of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Dr M S MOtSHEKGA
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MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE NOT PUT
(Ruling)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, allow me to make a ruling on the basis of what has happened here, and ostensibly yesterday in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We will place this matter before the Speaker to request the Chief Whips to meet with her in order to finalise this matter. We cannot allow this process to become what it is becoming. It is unacceptable. We do not accept that the proceedings of the House are disrupted and that we are unable to proceed with handling matters of consequence for the public.
The House adjourned at 17:32.
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