Hansard: NA: Statement by the Minister of Finance on retirement fund rumours; Members’ statements; Draft resolution (Mr J S Malema): The remuneration and conditions of service of mine workers in South Africa
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 04 Sep 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
04 SEPTEMBER 2014
PAGE: 1
THURSDAY, 04 SEPTEMBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_____________
The House met at 14:01.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
NOTICES OF MOTION
START OF DAY
NOTICES OF MOTION
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the crisis within the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, particularly the crisis of management in the NPA.
Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Ms G BREYTENBACH
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House-
debates the crisis at Eskom and the intention to continue with load shedding for a further period of 5 years. The commissioning of the Medupi Power Station scheduled for 2013, which has not materialised, is of grave concern,
despite R121 billion being allocated.
Thank you.
Ms M TONGWANA
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM
Ms T M A TONGWANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the role of women and their contribution to agriculture and food security in South Africa.
Thank you.
Mr M Q NDLOZI
Ms M TONGWANA
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the role of former state-owned enterprises like Sasol and Mittal Steel in obstructing progress for local beneficiation with a view to their re-nationalisation.
Thank you very much.
Ms S V KALYAN
Mr M Q NDLOZI
Ms S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the current mandate of the UN Security Council and recommendations to reform it.
Mr I MOSALA
Ms S V KALYAN
Mr I MOSALA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates assessing the management and democratic governance of health facilities.
Thank you.
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Mr I MOSALA
Mr K Z MORAPELA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House -
debates the promotion of smallholder agriculture as the bedrock of the country’s present and future food security; and notes the role of the state in ensuring the viability of this section of agriculture.
Mr L GREYLING
Mr K Z MORAPELA
Mr L W GREYLING: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates South Africa’s energy crisis, the negative impact on our economy and ways to resolves this.
I thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA
Mr L GREYLING
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the obvious resistance by the government to grant the Dalai Lama a visa to visit South Africa and how this stance compromises the country’s standing around the world.
I thank you.
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Mr M HLENGWA
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the provision of sanitation and the impact of the pota-pota system on the wellbeing of the people of the Western Cape.
I thank you.
Ms L MJOBO
Ms A MATSHOBENI
Ms L N MJOBO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the importance of science, technology and innovation for economic growth and development and enhancing the quality of life of all South Africans.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Ms L N MJOBO
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates measures and plans put in place to deal with the summer floods in Cape Town that continue to affect the black and poor communities in the Western Cape.
Mrs C DUDLEY
Ms P NTOBONGWANA
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House debates whether or not there is a need to reform the UN Security Council.
Thank you.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
Mrs C DUDLEY
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates government’s failure to fulfil its obligations to and the rights of people with disabilities, especially children.
Thank you.
Mr N M KHUBISA
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House debates the matter of safety and security in public hospitals.
Thank you.
Mr T Z M KHOZA
Mr N M KHUBISA
Mr T Z M KHOZA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates strengthening the social contract between government, teacher unions, parents, school governing bodies, business and civil society organisations.
Thank you.
Mr C M H MAXEGWANA
Mr T Z M KHOZA
Mr T R J E RAMOKHOASE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates violation of food-labelling regulations and the impact it poses on the economy, religion, ethics and health.
Thank you very much.
Ms S J NKOMO
Mr T R J E RAMOKHOASE
Ms S J NKOMO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the constant need to place municipalities and provincial governments under administration and how the lack of any leadership from government leads to such situations.
Thank you.
NOTICES OF MOTION
PROTESTS USED AS WEAPON TO DEMONSTRATE DISSATISFACTION
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D L TWALA: Hon Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF:
That the House–
notes with great concern the violent protests that have flared up out of frustration throughout the country in the past few days, causing inconvenience and destruction of property in communities. This shows that the protests are not a matter for the police, but the only available weapon for our excluded, marginalised people.
The SPEAKER: Are there any objections to the motion without notice? [Interjections.] As there is an objection, it becomes a notice of motion.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mr D L TWALA
HERITAGE MONTH 2014
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that September marks the annual Heritage Month in South Africa;
(2) further notes that the Minister of Arts and Culture launched the 2014 Heritage Month in Gauteng on 31 August 2014 under the theme “Celebrating 20 years of Democracy: Tell your story that moves South Africa forward”;
(3) recalls that among the projects identified to advance the “Tell Your Story” campaign are the reburials of Nat Nakasa and Moses Kotane;
(4) remembers that Heritage Month recognises aspects of South African culture which are both tangible and intangible; creative expression, such as music and performances; our historical inheritance; language, and the food we eat as well as popular memory;
(5) further recalls that South Africa is also home to eight of the 981 World Heritage Sites, which are recognised by the United Nations Educational and Scientific and Cultural Organisation as places of outstanding cultural and historical importance; and
(6) calls upon all South Africans to preserve these symbols of our past and spread awareness of our heritage resources.
Agreed to.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF CHARITY
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the IFP:
That the House–
(1) notes that 5 September will mark the United Nations International Day of Charity;
(2) further notes that the United Nations encourages individuals and organisations to observe the International Day of Charity through volunteer work, and engaging in charitable acts;
(3) recognises that, on this day, we remember those who are disadvantaged, those trapped in poverty and despair, and to take action to help them;
(4) pays tribute to all those who do charitable work in our country every day, particularly struggling NGOs and those who look after the most vulnerable sector of our society;
(5) further acknowledges that each of us bears a great responsibility to change lives, and that every day is therefore an opportunity to help those in need; and
(6) calls on all South Africans to give of their time and resources tomorrow on the International Day of Charity.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSTION
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
PARALYMPIC HAND CYCLISTS BECOME WORLD CHAMPIONS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSTION: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that Paralympic hand cyclists, Ernst van Dyk and Pieter du Preez, became South Africa’s newest world champions after winning their races at the 2014 UCI Para-cycling Road World Championship, held in the United States from 28 August to 1 September;
(2) also notes that Pieter du Preez was the first to be crowned world champion during his H1 category 30,6km road race, crossing the finish line in a winning time of 1 hour, 22 minutes and 33 seconds;
(3) further notes that Ernst van Dyk took the title of World Champion in the H5 category by launching a remarkable sprint to the finish line after 61,2km of racing;
(4) acknowledges that this was the best-ever performance by a South African team at the World Championship with our nation finishing eighth overall on the medals table, with a total of four medals;
(5) further acknowledges the hard work and dedication of each athlete, the team manager, Mr J C van der Walt, and national coach, Elrick Kulsen; and
(6) congratulates the team for flying our flag high and for making us all incredibly proud; the future of para-cycling in South Africa indeed looks bright.
Agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSTION
GÉZELLE MAGERMAN WINS GOLD MEDAL AT YOUTH OLYMPIC GAMES
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that Gézelle Magerman won the first gold medal for South Africa in the girls 400 metre hurdles final at the Youth Olympic Games in China on Monday, 25 August 2014;
(2) further notes that she broke a South African youth record as well;
(3) recalls that Gézelle won a gold medal in the same event at the African Youth Games in Botswana earlier this year;
(4) believes that her victory is an inspiration and a shining example for the youth of our country; and
(5) congratulates her on her sterling performance and wishes her much success in her future endeavours.
Agreed to.
Mr N S MATIASE
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CHINA AND RUSSIA BAN GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISM PRODUCTS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that the EFF congratulates both the socialist People’s Republic of China and Russia in their brave move to abandon and ban genetically modified organisms;
Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, while this motion without notice was indeed circulated, we did raise our objections to this motion and therefore it should not be read out in the House. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I regret to say that if there is an objection to a motion without notice, the motion is put aside.
Mr N S MATIASE: What is put aside, Speaker?
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker, can I address you on that matter? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Gardee.
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker, we have had a motion that was read in this House even though it had been circulated and objected to during circulation. It was allowed to be read. After it was finished, then there were objections. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Fine, let him read it. But it will, of course, not be agreed to, precisely because it has been objected to. Go ahead, hon member. I am allowing you to read it.
Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In the past, what has happened is that if a party objects to a motion without notice, it has never been read out in this House.
The SPEAKER: I believe it has been read out and I want to allow the member to read his motion without notice although it will not be agreed to, precisely because there is an objection to it. Go ahead, hon member.
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that the EFF congratulates both the socialist People’s Republic of China and Russia on their brave move to abandon and ban genetically modified organisms, GMOs;
(2) further notes, in particular, that the Chinese government moved to ban the importation of crops from the United States of America, USA, with a possible loss of more than US$3 billion for the genetically modified organism, GMOs, crop growers in the USA; and
(3) further notes the likelihood of the USA dumping its GMO products in Africa, and particularly in South Africa, where GMO products are still fed to our people despite growing conclusive scientific evidence that indicates the dangers these GMOs pose for the health of the people of the world. Thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, I rise on a point of order that while the motion without notice was being read out, one of the EFF members shouted ``shut up’’ to DA members. I put it to you that ``shut up’’ is unparliamentary. I don’t know the hon member’s name but he is wearing a cream jacket with sort of ...
The SPEAKER: Which hon member was that? Hon member, would you like to withdraw that?
Mr K Z MORAPELA: I withdraw, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Are there any other motions without notice? None.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
The SPEAKER
RETIREMENT FUND RUMOURS
(Statement by Minister of Finance)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, recent anecdotal evidence suggests that some employees are resigning from their jobs in order to cash in their pension and provident funds. We are not sure at this stage how widespread this phenomenon is, but Cabinet discussed this matter at its meeting on 20 August and issued a statement to assure all members of retirement funds that their pension and provident funds are safe, and that there was no need to resign from their jobs and cash in their pension and provident funds.
Government respects the fact that these retirement funds belong to their members. Government has never had, and does not have, any intention to nationalise these funds. Rumours to this effect are a blatant lie and so are the rumours that government has changed the laws on preservation before retirement. While government would like to see members preserve their retirement funds until they retire, government has not changed the law to force members to preserve until retirement. Employees still have the right to cash in their pension and provident funds when they resign their jobs. Were government to change such laws, such changes would always recognise vested rights. We will not, underline ``not’’, change any such laws and rules retrospectively. Rumours that government has changed the law to force members of pension and provident funds to preserve are false.
There can be nothing as risky as people resigning from their jobs to cash in their retirement funds and ending up being unemployed and losing the security of an income. Such risks are not worth taking under any circumstances, let alone to resign from their jobs when the reasons informing such a decision are false.
Government is extremely concerned that members of the Government Employees Pension Fund, GEPF, are reportedly resigning from their jobs even though there is no change at all to the GEPF and its laws. Teachers, health workers and members of our Police Service have no need to resign their jobs to cash in their pension funds. Their pensions are safe and their access to their pension funds has not been changed and no law has been changed in this regard. Members of the GEPF will always be entitled to a gratuity or a lump sum and annuity, as per the GEPF rules.
We do not know the underlying reasons why workers and employees are resigning from their jobs on the basis of false rumours and information, but we believe that the underlying reasons could be rooted in deeper reasons, like the fact that many workers may be overindebted. The challenge is that South African households seem to be struggling to save, with our households saving’s rate standing at a worryingly low level of 1,7% of GDP in 2013. Our low household savings rate is also reflected by the high indebtedness incidence amongst many of our workers, including many government employees. Household debt as a percentage of disposable income rose from about 50% in the early 2000s to about 80% during the global financial crisis. This ratio remains high at around 75%. Many of our people are overindebted and susceptible to income and price shocks.
Maybe the question is: Is all retail credit bad to the economy and households? And the answer is, no. We are not saying that all retail credit is bad, only some of it is bad, especially that credit which is meant to fund short-term or excessive consumption and which does not meet the affordability test. What we, and Cabinet, are saying is that we do need to ensure that there is responsible lending and borrowing and that there are robust regulatory checks and balances to protect workers, pensioners and the most vulnerable members of our society against reckless credit and unfair garnishee orders, as examples.
Is our current retirement system working perfectly? The answer is: It is working and it is not broken, but does have fault lines which need urgent fixing. The challenge is that even if South Africans save, mainly through their retirement funds, they are very quick to withdraw and spend their retirement savings when they change jobs. This leaves most of us vulnerable in our retirement as we would not have accumulated enough savings to retire comfortably. It is estimated that less than 10% of workers in South Africa will be able to retire comfortably. Certain funds like provident funds also have weaknesses. Their default is for retirees to take all their benefits as a cash lump sum on retirement and spend it quickly. Certain retirement products also carry high charges which are borne by members and are difficult for members to understand, often deliberately so.
We realise that it does not help much asking workers to save when their savings are going to be significantly eroded by service charges or costs which are borne by the members. Our research shows that charges can reduce up to 40% of the return in retirement funds. We have, therefore, embarked on a process to engage with the retirement industry in terms of resolving some of the complex cost issues to ensure that saving is a worthwhile effort, especially when saving for retirement, which is a long-term goal. The governance of certain funds also leaves much to be desired, because of the lack of sufficient training and skilling of some of the individuals who are tasked with managing retirement funds, namely the trustees. The proper management and supervision of our retirement funds is critical, as South Africa is in the top-ten list of the largest retirement industry in the world in terms of assets.
The other question is whether government has looked aside and ignored the above challenges. The answer is, no, we have not, as it would be irresponsible of government to do so. In fact, it is within the above context of low household savings, high indebtedness and challenges in the current retirement system that government has embarked on a programme which started in 2011 to reform the retirement industry with the sole aim, and I repeat, with the sole aim of benefiting the workers by ensuring that: They save for their retirement; the retirement system is simpler and meets workers’ needs at lower cost; workers get higher pensions by leaving money in the retirement system for longer; and that workers are encouraged to receive both a lump sum and a monthly income after retirement.
Government has not sat and cannot sit back and ignore these challenges. Some of the above issues have been addressed and enacted into law. The Financial Services Laws General Amendment Act of 2013, after broad consultations with the public and passed by Parliament, now criminalises the nontransfer by employers of workers’ contributions into retirement funds. The Act further requires trustees of pension funds to obtain sufficient skilling and training upon appointment in order to discharge their fiduciary duties. The law now protects the whistle-blowers, and explicitly requires trustees to exercise their duty towards the fund and its members.
The Taxation Laws Amendment Act of 2013, which was also thoroughly consulted on and passed by this Parliament, simplifies the tax treatment, harmonises benefits of retirement savings and provides enhanced tax incentives for workers irrespective of what type of retirement product they use. The Act also aligns provident funds and pension funds by requiring that provident fund members annuitise, that is, convert into a monthly income a portion - at least two-thirds - of their benefits when they go into retirement. The Act also protects vested rights so that the new dispensation does not apply to contributions that are made before 1 March 2015. The annuitisation will also take many years to take effect, as it also excludes amounts below R150 000 from being annuitised or converted into an annuity. Neither will it apply to members over 55 years. These annuitisation changes do not affect employees of government as these are already in place for their pension funds.
Whenever we engage with the public on the need for saving, we are always confronted by the question of why we even tax savings, especially discretionary savings. We have taken heed of this plight and announced that we will enable tax-free individual savings accounts to be offered in South Africa for the first time next year. [Applause.] We hope South Africans will take advantage of these initiatives and save beyond just for their retirement, but also for their children’s education, deposits on houses or emergencies.
Many of the above proposals mentioned here are summarised in more detail in documents available on the Treasury’s website, which is www.treasury.gov.za. In particular, the document published on 14 March this year entitled, 2014 Budget update on retirement reforms offers a comprehensive summary of reforms that we have put in place and that we will consult on in the future.
Just last week I met with the leaders of labour, business and community at the National Economic and Labour Development Council, Nedlac, and we all agreed that we should speak up against and discourage the recent spate of premature resignations taking place based on false information and rumours. Some of these wild rumours are that the new legislation intended to come into effect next year on 1 March, which I have talked about above, will prevent workers from accessing their money when they change jobs. There is also false information and rumours that government is about to nationalise pension or provident fund savings.
The laws intended to come into effect next year do not in any way prohibit members of pension or provident funds from taking their retirement benefits as cash lump sums when they change jobs or resign. In fact, there is currently no law, whether in government or private sector, which forces the preservation of retirement savings before retirement or upon resignation. This issue is still to be discussed in Nedlac, and we will only proceed after such consultations have taken place at the right forum. What government has done, so far, is to propose measures which could assist workers in keeping their retirement savings in the system longer so that they can continue enjoying the tax benefits and realise growth on their retirement savings.
It is important to caution workers who prematurely resign because of false information and rumours, because their withdrawals from retirement funds will be taxed as per the current tax rules; secondly, they might find it very difficult to be re-employed.
In conclusion, the other question is: Are workers’ retirement savings under threat? The answer is an emphatic ``no’’. As Cabinet stated about two weeks ago, through Minister Radebe on behalf of government, workers’ retirement savings are safe and remain under the management of their trustees where workers and employers are represented. [Applause.] There is no reason for workers to panic and prematurely resign to access their retirement savings. This money will always belong to them. The government-related retirement schemes like the Government Employees Pension Fund are not even affected by the annuitisation law seeking to come into effect next year.
We appeal to everyone to be calm and not make misguided decisions based on wrong and misleading information. We appeal also to financial services providers to give unbiased and accurate advice to their prospective clients, and not to take advantage of their fears. We appeal to trustees to inform and educate members of their funds of the facts surrounding retirement reforms. We also appeal to government human resource departments at national, provincial and local level to provide employees with all the accurate information they need regarding these retirement reforms, and to also counsel employees on the dangers of excessive debt and cashing their retirement funds prematurely. Pamphlets and circulars will soon be widely circulated to assist employers in communicating the correct message.
We also acknowledge that, at the end of the day, it is hard to ask individuals to save when they might not have jobs, or are under daily pressures of having to provide for themselves and their families, but it is still worthwhile to make an effort irrespective of our financial circumstances.
Are we reneging on our commitment to provide social security in old age? No, but we are saying that even though the current social security system is working very well, it has to be funded. However, we do want to encourage South Africans, especially those who have been fortunate to work, not to solely rely on the old age grant system for their retirement.
We hear of real life, harrowing stories about relatives, acquaintances, colleagues who once had the opportunity to work and save for their retirement but, because of lack of the right objective financial guidance and advice, lack of preservation and annuitising their retirement funds and reliance on rumours, have found themselves trapped in old-age poverty and having to solely rely on social grants.
The reality is that globally people are living longer, especially in retirement, because of medical technology and enhanced living standards. It is, therefore, imperative to assist people in making the right decisions while they are working and when they are about to retire. International research and behavioural economics provide overwhelming evidence of how the right defaults can assist people in making the right decisions. These are complex decisions to make since we are never certain how long we will live and how much we will need in our retirement.
As government, unions, community and business we have committed ourselves to continue with our communication campaign to spread the correct message to the public and to inform workers not to be scared about these reforms, as they only seek to assist them in their goal to save for retirement and to enjoy a decent life at retirement. I trust that hon members of this House are also going to go out there and deal with this misinformation to society in the interests of a better South Africa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr D T GEORGE
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr D T GEORGE: Speaker, we welcome the Minister’s statement; it is long overdue. We agree with the Minister that retirement funds belong to their members and that members should not take unnecessary risks or take loans to fund consumption expenditure. We do not agree with the Minister that the government has been alive to problems in the retirement industry. Fees on living annuities remain unacceptably high and trustees remain ill-equipped to perform their duties.
Retirement reform has been under discussion for more than a decade and this has led to considerable uncertainty within the retirement fund industry and amongst members of retirement funds. Communication from the government on the reform process has been patchy and garbled.
We agree that reform is required to encourage individuals to make provision for their retirement and not become reliant on the state. To achieve this, the government must ensure that an appropriate regulatory framework is in place without taking control over the asset management of retirement funds.
Where assets are under the control of government, the real possibility exists that retirement fund assets will be mismanaged and not yield returns that would have been possible under more efficient investment conditions. It is essential that retirement reform includes the option for funds to invest their money into portfolios of their own choice and not be forced into underperforming assets.
There are several examples where the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, has invested suboptimally into assets that other managers avoided. This has negative implications for members and pensioners of the Government Employees Pension Fund, GEPF, who rely on its ability to maintain sufficient reserves to ensure its ongoing financial viability.
Previous experiments with prescribed assets that distorted our economy, and tax on retirement fund investments that eroded member benefits must not be repeated. Members are concerned, as the Minister mentioned, about compulsory preservation and compulsory annuitisation. There is also concern from employers and members about taxation changes that are due for implementation next year, especially fringe benefits tax on employer contributions.
The implications for members have not been properly considered and engagement with the retirement funds industry has been inadequate. The changes are premature and should be postponed. The tax implication for members is significant and it cannot be government’s intention to erode members’ capacity to save. The government cannot be permitted to feed its widening fiscal deficit from retirement fund cash cows.
We agree that members should be discouraged from accessing their accumulated retirement funds assets before retirement. When they do, significant tax implications arise and members are unable to catch up on their interrupted savings, with devastating consequences later in their lives, when they are more financially at risk.
Given poor communication on the retirement process, members have become uncertain about being able to access their assets before and on retirement, and opt to leave their employment and withdraw from their fund simply to access their retirement nest egg. This is not sensible and should be discouraged.
Provident funds currently do permit members to access their benefits as a lump sum on retirement. Members are concerned that retirement reform will enforce compulsory annuitisation where their fund credit at retirement will purchase an annuity for monthly payments rather than a lump sum.
This has prompted members to withdraw their benefits before they are locked out of receiving a lump sum, thus incurring hefty tax penalties. To avoid this problem, the reform process should include an assurance that existing lump sum benefit arrangements will be permitted to remain in place.
Our economy is not achieving its full growth potential and the seven million unemployed South Africans are unlikely to find work. At the current growth rate - effectively zero - poverty and inequality will not be relieved. There is no retirement from a job that does not exist. This has resulted from policy incoherence that could have been avoided as other economies did on their emergence from the Great Recession.
Given our flatlining economic growth, we expect the Minister to return to this House to make a statement on what urgent steps government will take to encourage investment and invigorate our economy. The retirement funds industry has experienced fundamental change since 1980 through the process of pension fund conversions from defined benefit funding arrangements to defined contributions funding arrangements.
Trade union activity initiated conversions because union members were concerned that their own retirement assets were being used to finance their oppression. Members were subsequently cheated and did not receive a transfer of their full benefit or access to accumulated surpluses. There should be no surprise now that trade unions are nervous about the implications of retirement reform.
The Financial Services Board, FSB, is still involved in litigation over surplus apportionments that occurred decades ago. This is a consequence of a legislative framework that was not properly equipped to facilitate the transition and an incapable regulator. In the introduction of the Twin Peaks regulatory model, there must be absolute clarity on how pension funds will be regulated.
Retirement reform cannot be piecemeal, especially when South Africans are not saving nearly enough for their retirement. A government that is uncertain and unclear on policy direction and does not get the legislation right can inflict immeasurable damage on our already fragile economy. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr M S MBATHA
Dr D T GEORGE
Mr M S MBATHA: Madam Speaker, colleagues, the EFF, supports strong retirement fund and pension fund schemes. We believe this is the only vehicle that our workers have following their time in the working environment. We also believe that this has to be guarded and protected at all costs. However, there are existing trends. These trends have affected the perception with which the members of these funds have come to view their circumstances.
These trends are a result of decisions taken by the boards of these fund schemes when they invest in misdirected, and to some extent, very corrupt deals. The large number of our working people do not actually have any of these funds or the majority of these fund schemes investing in their communities.
There is also the harsh reality of South African life where people get retrenched and, through circumstances that we are familiar with, it takes them longer to move from retrenchment to the next opportunity. Harsh circumstances visit them very quickly, such as losing their houses, kids getting kicked out of a fee-paying school, children at university not being able to complete their studies because, at the time that the student was admitted to university, the parent was not deemed eligible for the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS.
We therefore support the regime that allows working South Africans who are members of these trusts and these retirement schemes to always be given an option and understanding to share their plight to protect their post-work state as members. It looks like our people have given up even on valuing the only investment aimed at securing a better livelihood later in their compromised state of life.
However, we are not surprised because our people have been subjected to conditions of indignity for many years. Our black people, in particular, having lived a life of a defeated people all these years, are not properly educated or advised on a constant basis of the value of these retirement funds.
We are a bleeding nation. Sometimes what we have seen is that the boards of these retirement funds are not even transformed. So, the decisions to invest are always directed at industries that do not even uplift the very same members of the retirement funds.
Today what characterises an elderly citizen in South Africa, in particular, is that they have a life of unpredictable longevity, difficult economic conditions, unexpected health challenges, lack of socioeconomic mobility, poor investment planning, and, most importantly, they are citizens that do not associate directly with the very retirement fund. Some of them hardly even know the names of organisations where their money is invested.
We need reforms that go beyond protecting the current and existing environment of retirement funds. We need an environment that first protects the right to be supported through a state when you are in circumstances which are far beyond your comprehension, unemployment, in particular. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr M S MBATHA
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, as the IFP, we are grateful that the Minister has taken it upon himself to address the rumours that have been flying around concerning the retirement funds. Rumours, on a personal level, can destroy a person’s reputation, especially when the information that is being circulated is false. When rumours escalate to government level, they could destabilise that very same government.
Therefore, there needs to be sustainable communication between government and our people, as this will help us to avoid a situation where people act out of fear.
There is general despondency concerning the economy, and confidence in the financial sector has dropped. The credit rating downgrade by rating agencies of our four banks did not help the situation either. Without understanding what this means to the ordinary people in their daily lives, people tend to panic and act irrationally.
Some people are disillusioned with their professions and others resign in order to gain access to their pensions, with undesirable consequences for some, as the Minister has pointed out.
The majority of our people do not know the difference between a retirement fund and a provident fund. Some may have confused the issues due to the upcoming impact of the Taxation Laws Amendment Act of 2013 dealing with the provident funds. However, not everyone has a provident fund.
The language and terms used in reference to our economy are foreign to most citizens of this country, and rumours of government taking over the retirement funds would spread faster because of the implied implications of such a move.
The role of brokers and investment advisors in this regard must be investigated, because most people trust what they say, more than what government is saying, because they see brokers as having their best interests at heart.
Our people need to have confidence in what their leaders are saying and a more detailed financial educational programme must be something the Minister must consider implementing, because we cannot function on rumours. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the NFP welcomes the statement by the hon Minister of Finance. We believe it will go a long way in clarifying the issue or the rumours that government intends to interfere in the savings and pensions of the educators.
The NFP believes that government should rather develop a programme to educate and capacitate its employees to manage the pensions due to them, when they leave government employment. Such an education initiative should be ideally ongoing and proactive, and aimed at equipping government employees with skills to manage their pensions in accordance with their overall individual financial planning and financial management choices.
We further believe that the educators who are resigning now in order to safeguard their pension money, based on allegations, are likely to spend such money on immediate relief of debt. The high level of debt, we believe, is directly correlated to the poor remuneration which educators receive in South Africa.
The NFP calls on government, once more, as we have done in the past and with reference to our election manifesto, to urgently address the poor remuneration of our educators, in particular, and government employees, in general. We believe that the remuneration should be aligned with the skills and the contribution that educators and government employees make.
In addition, we propose that those professionals in the employment of the government who are required to perform services in rural and far-flung places in our country be given additional financial incentives to encourage them to take up positions which they otherwise might be reluctant to do.
Like a mother who takes care of a child from the time the child is born right up to the time that the child becomes a woman, so should government take responsibility for its employees whilst they are employed and after they have retired. I think it is the responsibility of government to ensure that its employees are taken care of, secure and safe in retirement and that they enjoy their retirement.
We also want to acknowledge, hon Minister of Finance, that your concern is noble with regard to the intention to promote savings on a national scale. The NFP is of the opinion that individual savings, however, should be a choice and not mandatory. In light of that, the NFP wants to state categorically that it is satisfied that today we will instill confidence, trust and dedication in our educators.
In so doing, they will go on to perform their functions and enhance the educational system in South Africa. I thank you.
Mr N L S KWANKWA
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and hon members, the UDM welcomes the steps the Minister of Finance has taken to reassure South Africans about the safety of their pension funds. It is indeed gratifying, Mr Minister, to hear that government has no intention of dealing with our money in a cavalier way.
The Minister’s call should dispel the rumours and the notion that people are going to lose their money due to amendments to laws that govern pension funds.
However, the UDM believes that there are a number of contributing factors to consider. Firstly, South Africa is battling with a poor savings culture. South Africans generally do not save. Our savings rate currently stands at about just over 10% of total household income.
As you already know, savings are an essential part of the economic system and contribute to a country’s economic development. This is because savings can serve as a critical source for investment in social and physical infrastructure for economic development, thus making a country less dependent on foreign direct investment.
Experience in Asia and elsewhere in the world has shown that high savings rates tend to be typically associated with higher economic growth and employment. Our low savings rate, therefore, makes it difficult for us to achieve this.
To make matters worse, statistical evidence indicates that there is a tendency among members of previously disadvantaged communities to spend more on funeral plans and other death benefit policies than they do on savings.
This means that our people will struggle financially during retirement and will most likely depend on the government’s social security programmes to survive.
There is no shortcut solution to this challenge. We have to educate the people of South Africa about the importance of saving, at both micro and macro levels and we need to educate our people about the pension fund schemes that are available in the market.
One less talked about factor is the poor working conditions of workers in both the private and the public sectors. Many of these workers work long shifts and are overworked and underpaid. As a result, the majority of them end up having to take out loans to put bread on the table.
The other less talked about factor is the number of dependants per breadwinner in a typical and an average African family, which also makes it difficult for people to save. The end result is the high levels of indebtedness among households and very little or no savings.
While we appreciate the efforts the Minister has undertaken to put our people’s minds at ease on this matter, the UDM believes that tangible improvements in the working conditions and the remuneration of the public and the private sector employees is one of the most available and durable solutions. It is our considered view that this pension scare is just a symptom of an underlying problem. Therefore, a holistic approach is required to solve this problem. I thank you, very much.
Adv A D ALBERTS
Mr N L S KWANKWA
Adv A D ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, we wish to thank the Minister for his reassurances. People should not withdraw their pensions, as withdrawals deprive them of what Einstein called the eighth wonder of the world, namely compound interest. South Africa’s pension funds constitute the foundation of the country’s financial heritage. It is the last line of defence against financial implosion and anarchy. As such, it must be treated with the outmost respect and care.
Government itself stands in a fiduciary duty towards pension funds as it is the custodian of the country’s financial future. This is important, as without a financial future this country as a whole will not survive the internal pressures that will erupt due to financial meltdown.
Currently, we are at the crossroads. The decisions we make today will affect the future; however, we are standing at a special place in history. Therefore, the decisions we make now as a collective will take us to one of three places: firstly, anarchy; secondly, mediocrity leading to delayed anarchy; or thirdly, job-creating growth and the destruction of poverty. This implies that policy decisions today will either build or disrupt our future. Therefore, in the interest of all those who are hungry, destitute, disillusioned, poor and suffering, we implore the Minister to hear our advice.
Afrikaans:
Pensionfondse, indien reg bestuur, kan die versekeringspolis word om die skep van ’n goeie toekoms te realiseer en as kussing dien teen enige ekonomiese katastrofes. Dit beteken egter dat die volgende versekerings in plek moet wees.
Eerstens, die regering moet bykomend tot bestaande pensioenfondse ’n erfenisfonds daarstel om te spaar vir slegte tye, soos die Alberta Erfenisfonds in Kanada.
Tweedens, die regering moet bestaande fondse se integriteit beskerm deur die Wet op Pensioenfondse te verander dat alle pensioenfondse onder die oorsig van die Beregtiger van Pensioenfondse val. Dan sal stroping, soos in die geval van die twee Transnet Pensioenfondse, nie kan plaasvind nie.
Derdens, die regering moet fondse teen ontwikkelingbeleggings tot ’n maksimum van 1% beskerm.
Laastens, die regering moet belasting op pensioene verminder.
Saam met bogenoemde voorstelle, moet die regering weer diep dink oor wat die werklike snellers vir ekonomiese groei sal wees. Daar is werklike interne beperkinge soos uiteengesit deur die onlangse verslag van die Wêreld-Ekonomiese Forum, naamlik beleidsonsekerheid, ’n inperkende arbeidsregime, korrupsie, swak opleiding, ’n ondoeltreffende staatsdiens, onvoldoende werksetiek, ensomeer.
Die faktore is binne die beheer van die regering. Dit beteken dat die regering in beheer is van die land se toekoms. Indien die verkeerde pad ons voorland word, sal ons kinders uiteindelik net die ANC kan blameer. Ek dank u.
Mr W M MADISHA
Adv A D ALBERTS
Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, having listened attentively to what the hon Minister has said, I will begin at the end, with regard to my input. We are asking an important question that says: Now that what has been said has arisen, what is going to happen to those who withdrew their savings? What will they do upon retirement? The government has a duty to introduce amendments that would allow those who mistakenly withdrew their savings to reinvest during a given period of grace. After all, government created doubt amongst workers that they would not be able to access their savings, Naledi. The unions, employers and employees need a categorical assurance that, even if the present proposal ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: That remark wasn’t even hidden. I don’t really need to stand up and tell the hon member that we are not that familiar with each other. So, if the hon member could refer to me as ``hon member’’.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Madisha, you know the name of the hon member, and also know how you should address the member.
Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I’ve got that, thank you.
Hon Pandor, I will go back and say that unions, employees and employers need a categorical assurance that even if the present proposal were to become law - as we have seen in many other instances – legislation will not be implemented retrospectively in two or three years’ time. Members must receive a clear assurance that they will indeed be able to access a portion of their savings when the new law comes into effect, if that were to be the case.
Members of provident funds should be educated on the benefits of monthly payments instead of a once-off lump sum withdrawal. Government must find a way to help those who panicked and who withdrew their savings to reinvest in pension funds or provident funds. It is a reality that the ruling party said that the pension funds were going to be nationalised; that was the case. [Interjections.] They said that, and as a result, we have this problem. It shows the failures on their part. Failures! Failures! [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Madisha, when you do that you make it impossible for us to conduct our affairs. You know what you should do.
Sesotho:
E, bua le setjhaba, o buele mola. [Ditsheho.]
Setswana:
Rre W M MADISHA: Kana ke dirileng, Mmusakgotla?
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member. Say it again.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Madisha is misleading the House. He said something that does not exist and which was not said, yet he boldly states that it was said by the ANC. He knows that it is not true and he must withdraw it. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Swart, take you seat. It is all right. Go ahead, uTata Madisha.
Mr W M MADISHA: It is true, morena. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Madisha, you are being contemptuous when you do that, and you are out of order!
Mr S N SWART
Mr W M MADISHA
Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP, like other parties, welcomes the Minister’s statement in the wake of the misinformation and rumours within the public domain about pension fund reforms. I have heard of senior police officers who have also taken early retirement, supposedly because they are concerned about either the nationalisation of their pension funds or their funds being used to fund government projects due to a perceived shortfall in tax revenues.
While we in the ACDP appreciate that there are very high levels of personal indebtedness and household debt to the gross domestic product, GDP, we agree that workers should be encouraged to preserve their savings until retirement, as other speakers have alluded to, and as the Minister alluded to as well.
Clearly, the question is whether workers are cashing in on their pension and provident savings early because of their high levels of debt, or is it because of these rumours? I think it is largely a combination of both; there are high levels of debt but there are also these persistent rumours.
The media reported that National Treasury had said that, ``There is a lot of pressure linked to levels of indebtedness’’, and, ``We want to take action before people cash in their pension funds.’’ If that media report is correct, then we think that it adds to the suspicions and rumours. However, we must obviously view that statement in the context of it being a proposal, going forward. Nothing has been finalised as yet. As the Minister said, people’s retirement savings remain safe and there is no reason for any worker, both in the private or public sector, to resign so as to access their retirement savings.
Minister, you indicated that about 10% of South Africans are able to retire comfortably. I thought the figure was about 6%, but we know that it is low. The proposal is that when people change jobs before reaching retirement age, they should be discouraged from withdrawing all their money, as this is the practice at the moment; it should not be made illegal.
Instead, the money should then be transferred to a fund, and then requests could be made for withdrawals. Again, this is a proposal. This would encourage workers to keep their savings until they retire. Old Mutual found that almost 93,5% of its members who were paid withdrawal benefits opted to take cash rather than preserve their benefits. Obviously, as has been said, there are severe tax implications if you withdraw your funds earlier. More significantly, there are people who are resigning, like a police major I heard about, who is resigning because he is concerned that he is going to lose his pension. We are losing that expertise, and so it is incumbent upon all of us as Members of Parliament to spread the message that these are rumours, and that there is no such thing of pension funds being taken.
Thank you Minister for highlighting that to us, but we need to take this message to our constituencies. Thank you very much.
Mr L M NTSHAYISA
Mr S N SWART
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, we as the AIC appreciate the explanation given by the hon Minister with regard to these rumours. It came as a shock to us that civil servants would not benefit at all, after having worked hard and saved a lot for many years. However, the hon Minister has made it clear that these rumours are unfounded.
Hon Minister, this information has just come a little too late, because some civil servants have already tendered their resignation notices in order to cash in their pension funds. Therefore, we wonder whether it is possible for these people to reverse these notices.
Money is a very sensitive issue and people are always in dire need of it, especially civil servants who have the burden of feeding their loved ones and their extended families. Hon Minister, pension funds are taxed heavily by the SA Revenue Service, Sars. I wonder if it is possible for the government to intervene in order to avoid such taxation on pension funds.
It is a great initiative by the government to guard against rumours of this nature. However, one of the reasons why these civil servants would like to cash in their pension funds is because they are not paid enough where they work. That is why most of them would be very interested in cashing in their funds. Again, as the AIC, we would wish that the salaries or money that is paid to civil servants is increased somewhat. For instance, people, especially teachers, have a lot of loans or they make lots of loans in order to make a living. If they get salary increases, it will be possible for them to be better off than has been the case.
Minister, the tax-free savings account you promised is going to be introduced is a great step. It will relieve our civil servants. We are appreciative of this great promise that you have just made. The benefits that will be introduced are a great endeavour to safeguard the lives of our people. [Time expired.]
Ms P S KEKANA
Mr L M NTSHAYISA
Ms P S KEKANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and hon members of this august House, before I present my maiden speech, I want to remind this House that a party that just recently went down from 30 members in this House to three cannot lecture any party about failure. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
I want to premise my speech on the policy orientation of the ANC. The ANC’s economic vision rests on the Freedom Charter’s call that the people shall share in the wealth of the country. Through economic transformation, the ANC intends to build an equitable society in which there is decent work for all. The ANC’s most effective tool in the campaign against poverty is the creation of decent work. Creating work requires faster and more inclusive economic growth. The challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality require that accelerated growth takes place in the context of an effective strategy of redistribution that builds a new and more equitable growth path.
The ANC government has made considerable progress towards the implementation of a comprehensive social security system since 1994. Much of that work has focused on social assistance, which has enabled the ANC government to place more than 13 million South Africans into the social security system, with more than eight million South Africans on the child support grant.
Since 2007, the ANC has developed the framework of a comprehensive social security strategy which includes the elements of retirement reforms. A comprehensive social security system requires both social assistance and social insurance. That is why the ANC government has actively engaged in its initiative to drive the development of a comprehensive policy dealing with the reform of South Africa’s retirement system, and the integration of other mandatory provisions such as unemployment insurance, the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, Coida, and road accident insurance.
South Africa’s domestic savings has a history of being generally low and therefore needs to be harnessed to better promote economic growth so that, at an individual level, retirees will increment their chances of a financially better life during retirement.
The ANC government has recognized the need to protect and improve the financial wellbeing of households, in order to make them less vulnerable to a sudden loss of income in bad times. It recognizes that households must be encouraged to invest in their futures, including investing in homes or productive assets, and saving for retirement or business purposes. Savings are critical because excessive spending can lead to excessive debt. With no savings, households are likely to borrow more to deal with shocks to their income and expenditure. The danger is that excessive debt tends to linger and negatively affects individual and collective self-esteem. It is important to save, even if it is a little money, from the various grants that are received, rather than get into debt.
Our government has reaffirmed to the public that it has no intention whatsoever to nationalise people’s pension or provident funds, or prevent them from accessing their money. What is significant is the encouragement for workers to retain their savings until they retire, so that they take a portion of their money and convert some of their retirement savings into income for retirement. Free education, hey? [Interjections.]
This debate in the House comes at a time when the ANC, as the ruling party, has prioritized a culture of saving amongst South Africans. Something very, very important to note is that this is a very emotional issue and it needs to be treated with the necessary attention it deserves.
There are two scenarios that I want to paint. I am a teacher by profession ... [Interjections.] ... or rather, I was a teacher but it is still my profession. During those days when I was very young, we would take our little kids for sport activities over weekends. This was a very profound and emotional experience. [Interjections.] Hon Minister of Sport, after the games we as teachers would always say, let’s go to Mr so and so, and have fun, as teachers. The arrangement would be that, as we went there ...
Sepedi:
... moyamahlong a tau o ya a swere serumula.
English:
This means that when one approaches the lion you must have something to protect yourself with. [Interjections.]
Thus, we would have some bottles and other things in order to have fun ... [Interjections.] ... but those who did not have would not bring any cold drinks along. As we were there, those who had would say ...
Afrikaans:
U wat spaar ...
English:
... and they would drink, while those who did not have would say ...
Afrikaans:
U wat nie spaar nie ...
English:
... and therefore they would not drink.
People then started going to mashonisas [money lenders] so that they would not become those ...
Afrikaans:
... wat nie spaar nie.
English:
That was the first experience I had.
The second emotional issue which I want to share with this House is that a similar situation confronted us as the Limpopo province approximately 20 years ago, of course under different conditions and circumstances. Our democracy was in its infancy and there was a lot of misinformation about what the future held for our new democracy. This was during the amalgamation of different administrations. Due to uncertainty, most public servants from the then Venda Republic decided to cash in their money. Obviously, some invested their money correctly. They built decent houses, and they took their kids to schools; by that time model C schools were the in thing. Some were able to afford houses in prime areas or suburbs and their assets appreciated.
Obviously, a human element will always be there. Amongst those who cashed in their money was a Mr Motubatshindi Mpesu, who, because of his miscalculation as he cashed in his pension, did not address critical issues. Four years down the line, his pensionable age kicked in, but he had squandered the money.
Afrikaans:
Hy het nie gespaar nie.
English:
The bond and car payments were still outstanding, and then had to be repossessed. The kids had to be deregistered from the model C schools. That was something very profound. Thanks go to the ANC government for free basic education, because we anticipated that this would happen one day; hence the Freedom Charter.
The other very profound thing that our people experienced then was that families disintegrated. Remember, the reason for all these impromptu decisions was fear of the unknown then. This situation may not be unique to Limpopo because the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei, TBVC, states were confronted by this as well.
Today, under different conditions in the history of our country, history wants to repeat itself and we cannot keep quiet. Clearly, we are not turning a blind eye to the level of indebtedness we find ourselves in. There is empirical evidence which shows that South Africans do not have a culture of saving. People see an opportunity to mitigate their debts through proposed pension reforms; hence these mooted mass resignations, especially in the public sector.
Less is being communicated by those who have interest in our people, as to what is in it for them. It is a fact that the current Government Employees Pension Fund, GEPF, is not affected by this reform, yet we are not telling our people the truth. It means that our GEPF is the best. It is a fact that the current GEPF is fully funded; it is fully guaranteed and you can be certain what you are going to get upon retirement. These other myths or misinformation about Public Investment Corporation, PIC, investments are attempts to mislead our people, which we are not going to allow. [Interjections.]
Government wants to protect and preserve our people’s investments. Government and you have made provision for your retirement, so that you will be able to maintain your standard of living beyond your time of employment. [Interjections.] That is another confirmation.
Government wants there to be equity between the pension fund and the provident fund, hence this reform. One of the realities of the current provident fund scheme is that employees are able to cash in their pensions as they change jobs, and by the time their actual retirement comes ...
Afrikaans:
... het hulle nie genoeg gespaar nie.
English:
The reality of cashing in prematurely also comes at a huge cost, and this is what we are not telling our people: you lose your employer’s contribution and you are heavily taxed. Of course, it is a plus to the Minister of government because he will get more revenue, but the ANC, being the ANC, takes care of its own people. That is why it wants to tell people not to retire prematurely. [Applause.] We are also concerned that if our people do not save accordingly, their standard of living will deteriorate, going forward.
Afrikaans:
’n AGB LID: Ja, juffrou.
English:
Ms P S KEKANA: As I conclude, given the challenges our people are going through and the level at which loan sharks and other microlenders have seized on this opportunity, it is important for our National Credit Regulator to do enforcement and ensure compliance by these microlenders that are scheming our people.
As I said, this is a very, very emotional issue and, given the picture that I have painted, I want to check with hon George whether he is confirming to this House that the constituency that is affected by this misinformation is the majority of our black people, and that his party is not going to do more to reassure our people that their insurance pension fund is secure. [Interjections] Is it because his party represents the elite who are formally educated and who are financially literate? [Interjections] All or most parties in this House can welcome this reform without the DA welcoming it.
Mr D T GEORGE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I would like to know whether the hon member wants me to answer her questions. [Interjections.]
Ms P S KEKANA: Obviously, I am not prepared. [Interjections.] Is this not yet another confirmation that hon George’s party will never break their limited ceiling to reach out to the hearts and minds of the poor? [Interjections.] Hon George knows very well that the broader issues that speak about these reforms are at the top of the agenda in our standing committee. [Interjections.]
As I said, the ANC believes that the current pension reforms are in the best interests of our people ... [Interjections.] ... and that through these interventions, of course, we will continue to move South Africa forward, together with our people. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
MEMBER STATEMENTS
Ms P S KEKANA
ANC WINS BI-ELECTIONS IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Member’s Statement)
IsiZulu:
Dkt M B KHOZA (ANC): Sekela Somlomo ohloniphekile, ngiphakamela ukubongela uKhongolose ngokutshengisa izimbangi zakhe ukuthi uzophinda aluwine ngamalengiso ukhetho ngowezi-2016, njengoba eqeda ukwenza ngokuwina ukhetho lomasipala basekhaya laphaya KwaZulu-Natali ehlwitha umbuso kwiNkatha yeNkululeko yesiZwe.
Ngomhlaka 13 kuNcwaba 2014 uKhongolose ugile izimanga ewina ukhetho kuMasipala waseNdaka ku-ward 4. Uphinde futhi wawuhlwitha umbuso kuyo Inkatha wawina u-ward 4 eJozini. [Ihlombe.] Lo mhlomulo utshengisa ngokusobala ukuthi abantu nabavoti baKwaZulu-Natali neNingizimu Afrika yonkana bayamazi umkhululi wabo.
Abavoti baseNdaka nabaseJozini balubonile utshalo lwezimali lwezigidigidi zamarandi ekuletheni amanzi imizi enogesi nemigwaqo ezindaweni zabo. UKhongolose uthi uzoqhubeka nentuthuko. Sithi siyabonga bavoti, nangomuso. [Ihlombe.]
Mr M H HOOSEN (DA)
Dkt M B KHOZA
REFUSAL OF visa TO Dalai Lama
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M H HOOSEN (DA): Deputy Speaker, reports are emerging that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is once again facing resistance to his visa application in order to visit South Africa.
This House will recall that, on two occasions, the Dalai Lama was prevented from entering South Africa. Once in 2009, in preparation for the World Cup, and again in 2011 when His Holiness planned a trip to visit Archbishop Desmond Tutu on his birthday.
It seems that, once again, someone at Luthuli House is pulling the strings to prevent the Dalai Lama from coming to South Africa, this in a country where the illegal foreigners roam freely, as they please; where people can jump over the fences to get into our country, and where the Guptas can waltz into the country where they are guests, as they please.
A person of such high esteem is being prevented from participating in an event promoting peace. This is a shocking and an embarrassing state of affairs. This childish behaviour from the ANC must stop today. [Interjections.] The Minister of Home Affairs must ensure that everything possible is done to ensure free passage to His Holiness to enter South Africa for the Peace Summit planned for October. The DA will be watching the space very closely, and we will not hesitate to hold the Minister accountable. [Applause.]
Ms H O MAXON
Mr M H HOOSEN
RESIGNATION OF ADV PANSY TLAKULA FROM IEC
(Member’s Statement)
Ms H O MAXON (EFF): Deputy Speaker, the EFF welcomes the long overdue resignation of the disgraced former Chairperson of the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, Adv Pansy Tlakula. The futile fight she waged in the court of law to prevent the inevitable from happening was a serious blight on her dignity and the office she occupied. We hope that this final act by her will salvage whatever is left of her dignity.
The EFF was one of the very first parties to call for her removal, as her role and the proven allegations she faced were irreconcilable.
The ruling party and its allies were all along defending her, clearly showing that those who lead us defend corruption as long as they stay loyal to the party.
Corruption is only wrong when it is done by those that are outside the ruling party, but perfectly acceptable when it is done by the comrades of those that are in power.
Institutions such as the IEC, the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, as well as the SABC, should be led by people of unquestionable moral character as the future and the credibility of the country’s electorate processes and dispensation of justice depends on them. Thank you. [Applause.]
MR M HLENGWA
MS H O MAXON
PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES’ CHAIRMANSHIP OF SCOPA
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M HLENGWA (IFP): Deputy Speaker, it is concerning to know that South Africa’s provincial legislatures’ chairmanship of the standing committee on public accounts continues to be held by the ruling party. The credibility and objectivity of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, is based on the global convention that committees are chaired by the opposition, and it is extremely regrettable that seven out of nine of the Scopas in the provincial legislatures are not chaired by the opposition parties.
In the interest of transparency and accountability,given the sensitive nature of the work that Scopa does, the ruling party must relook its deployments in this regard, and do the honourable thing of handing over the chairmanship of Scopa to the opposition parties in the respective provincial legislatures.
Scopa’s chairmanship in South Africa is as follows: In the National Assembly it is the APC, but in Gauteng, Limpopo, Northern Cape, North West, Mpumalanga, Free State, and KwaZulu-Natal, it is the ANC. [Interjections.] It is only the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape that follows this international convention. The current situation flies in the face of the recommendations of the Auditors-General internationally and also makes the ruling party both a player and a referee in a crucial area of oversight.
Whilst we acknowledge that there is no law stipulating that the opposition parties must chair Scopa, the best practice, convention and tradition behind such a move must not be negated to the point that we collapse the gains and strengths of our own democratic progress. Thank you. [Applause.]
MS M A MOLEBATSI
MR M HLENGWA
ARREST OF DIAMOND SYNDICATE
(Member’s Statement)
Setswana:
Ms M A MOLEBATSI (ANC): Ke a leboga, Motlotlegi Motlatsa Mmusakgotla.
English:
The South African law enforcement agencies must be commended for their excellent work, resulting in the arrest of 19 men, who are part of a syndicate dealing in illicit diamond trading, on Friday, 23 August 2014 in Gauteng, Northern Cape, Free State and North West. In Kimberly, eight further suspects later handed themselves over to the police in connection with the same crime bust.
This syndicate is believed to be responsible for the theft and sale of illicit diamonds worth billions of rands, which is costing South Africa millions of rands in lost revenue. The suspects are charged under the Prevention of Organised Crime Act, and appeared in court on charges of money laundering, illegal diamond dealings and possession of suspected illicit diamonds.
The operations of these syndicates show that the networks of crime have grown in their reach and sophistication across national borders. The government vows to continue expanding and deepening co-operation among law enforcement agencies in the region and further afield. At the same time, we are cognisant of the fact that we must enhance our systems of border control, and improve the capacity of our defence force and intelligence agencies to secure the integrity of our state. Thank you.
Ms C N MAJEKE (UDM)
Ms M A MOLEBATSI
NEED FOR BRIDGE AT MBOMBO LOCATION
(Member’s Statement)
Ms N C MAJEKE (UDM): Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, during my visit to my constituency in Mhlontlo it was brought to my attention that we need to consider the construction of a bridge in Mbombo location, Ward 12, at the Tina River at Mhlontlo Municipality in Qumbu.
In the beginning of the current year 2014, two children who attended at Tabase Junior Primary School drowned in the aforementioned river. Both children were around the age of 13 and were from the Somvaba family. Yes, there have been efforts to find these poor souls. However, no positive results have been registered to date. The parents are distraught because of these incidents.
We recommend that your office should consider this as a matter of extreme urgency given that it threatens people’s lives, access to education and many other socioeconomic realities confronting the rural poor. I thank you.
Ms R M LESOMA
Ms N C MAJEKE
DURBAN TO HOST 2015 WORLD ROUTES CONFERENCE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms R M M LESOMA (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC in Parliament would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the City of Durban for winning a bid to host the 2015 edition of the World Routes Conference which will bring together CEOs of major international airlines at the Inkosi Albert Luthuli International Convention Centre.
This event, which will be held for the first time in this country, brings together key stakeholders in the aviation and tourism industry and includes airlines, airports and tourism industry players. Through this conference, the ANC-led eThekwini Municipality will be able to engage the major global airlines with the objective of getting them to consider King Shaka International Airport as an alternative hub to enter Southern Africa.
The City of Durban and the KwaZulu-Natal province have embarked upon a development strategy to grow the regional tourism economy and to increase the number of international tourists in KZN by 2030, which is part of eThekwini Municipality’s 2030 vision.
The plan is to grow passenger and cargo airlift out of King Shaka International Airport. The hosting of the World Routes 2015 conference will assist in improving the air services potential of the airport, coupled with the trade gateway operations of the two sea ports.
In addition, bringing the event to the growing aviation market of Africa, which also has significant potential, will be of huge benefit to the region. I thank you.
Ms C DUDLEY
Ms R M LESOMA
CALL ON GOVERNMENT TO PLACE MORATORIUM ON SHALE GAS EXPLORATION
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Hon Deputy Speaker, the ACDP calls on government to place a moratorium on shale gas exploration and stop the legislative process to regulate until all evidence has been considered.
The Associated Press reported last week that details have been released regarding 243 cases of companies prospecting for oil or gas in the USA being found to have contaminated drinking water. Problems include methane gas contamination, spills of waste water and other pollutants and wells drying up or becoming undrinkable.
Fracking, or hydraulic fracturing, involves pumping a pressurised mixture of water and chemicals deep into the ground to extract natural gas trapped in shale layers.
The ACDP recognises that government has a responsibility to ensure energy security, and shale gas provides the country with the potential to reindustrialise. It is however a contentious issue and the pros and cons must be carefully weighed.
The ACDP once again calls on the Ministers of Energy and Mineral Resources to give careful consideration to community concerns and recommendations and to ensure ongoing communication with stakeholders.
Energy demand in South Africa will increase in years to come for many reasons, including population growth and our National Development Plan, NDP. Apart from a recognised need to transition to renewable energy, trade-offs may be inevitable, but we need to know more with regard to health, agricultural water and social impacts.
The ACDP calls on government to urgently do the necessary environmental impact, social and health assessment which must include cultural and religious issues. Thank you.
Ms L MNGANGA-GCABASHE
Ms C DUDLEY
EFF’S BEHAVIOUR IN KOKSTAD MUNICIPALITY
(Member’s Statement)
Ms L MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC notes with disgust the appalling hooliganism displayed by people who disrupted the functioning of the local municipality in Kokstad, KwaZulu-Natal recently.
A group of people wearing EFF regalia stormed the Kokstad municipal offices and ordered staff and management out of their offices in what they termed ``a demand for a response to their petition’’.
The act of anarchy in Kokstad municipal offices is a calculated move to cause further instability ahead of the 2016 local government elections.
Causing anarchy in our municipalities and preventing them from delivering services amounts to criminal behaviour. We are appealing to the EFF leadership to make use of the legitimate channels for expression of views, as guaranteed by our Constitution.
We strongly condemn this behaviour and we hope it will not be repeated. Ngyabonga Sekela Somlomo. [Ihlombe.]
Mr A G WHITFIELD
Ms L MNGANGA-GCABASHE
MAKANA MUNICIPALITY PLACED UNDER ADMINISTRATION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr A G WHITFIELD (DA): Hon Deputy Speaker, the DA has repeatedly warned of the imminent collapse of Makana Municipality’s finances as well as the collapse of the water and sanitation infrastructure. We now welcome the fact that Makana Municipality has finally been placed under administration.
On Monday last week, the DA wrote to MEC Fikile Xasa, requesting yet again that he place the municipality under section 139 (1b) administration, effective immediately. This after his predecessor Mlibo Qoboshiyane repeatedly failed to deal decisively with the multiple critical issues staring him straight in the face. But it took a visit to Grahamstown for Minister Gordhan to see for himself what a mess this municipality was in, for the final step to be taken.
Something stinks in Makana Municipality, and it is not just the sewerage. It is the hidden Kabuso forensic investigation commissioned by the council but never tabled for action. I have this week submitted a prior application to make this report public and if the ANC is incapable of taking action against the corruption, the DA will.
The Minister has promised to return to Grahamstown in 90 days and I would like to invite him to visit kwaThatha, a forgotten community living on the edge of a waterfall of raw sewerage which flows past and through the homes of the real victims of the failure of this municipality, the poor.
As of today, many parts of Grahamstown are still without water while the sewerage continues to flow freely. The ANC have allowed this once proud city of saints to be governed by sinners for far too long. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr H MAXHEGWANA
MR A G WHITFIELD
NATIONAL ARBOR WEEK: 1-7 SEPTEMBER 2014
(Member’s Statement)
Mr C H M MAXEGWANA (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, South Africa celebrates Arbor Week from 1-7 September under the theme ``Forests and People: Investing in a sustainable future’’. Arbor Week is a campaign by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries aimed at celebrating and creating awareness about the significance of trees in our lives.
The Million Trees Programme is a public greening initiative that was launched during the 2007 Arbor Week launch in Ga-Rankuwa. The programme provides low-income communities with fruit trees to plant at their homes. It also targets schools, early learning centres, clinics and old age homes. The set task is to plant one million trees across the country annually.
The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, in collaboration with the Institute of Environment and Recreation Management and Total South Africa, runs the National Arbor City Award competition. The purpose is to encourage local municipalities to green their communities.
The ANC would like to congratulate winners of the Annual Arbor City Award Competition. As the ANC ... Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M A DIRKS
Mr C H M MAXEGWANA
SOUTH AFRICA SELECTED GOVERNMENT CO-CHAIR OF OPEN GOVERNMENT PARTNERSHIP STEERING COMMITTEE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M A DIRKS (ANC): Hon Speaker, the African National Congress congratulates the government of the Republic of South Africa under the leadership of His Excellency, President Zuma, on the recent selection of the government of South Africa to serve as government co-chair on the Open Government Partnership, OGP, Steering Committee from 24 September 2014 until September 2016. This important achievement was formally announced on 4 August 2014 at the OGP session of the US-Africa Leadership Summit which took place in Washington DC, United States.
South Africa will use its tenure as co-chair to ensure that OGP country action plans promote the domestic priorities of countries as they undertake to strengthen their good governance initiatives. The South African government is of the view that a focus on strengthening domestic priorities will, with the support of OGP regional and other governance networks, lead to improved governance practices.
South Africa has therefore committed, as one of its priorities during its tenure as OGP co-chair, to facilitate greater collaboration between the OGP, regional governance structures, and the United Nations system, as well as the creation and strengthening of a mechanism for on-going civil society and government interaction. I thank you.
MR K J MILEHAM
Mr M A DIRKS
CONDUCT OF POLITICAL PARTIES
(Member’s Statement)
Mr K J MILEHAM (DA): Deputy Speaker, over the past few days, months and years it has become increasingly obvious that when certain political parties cannot get their way, they resort to anarchic behaviour and infantile tactics rather than debating issues in a reasoned and rational manner. Examples abound - from the poo protest last year to the toyi-toying and disruptions of council meetings in the City of Cape Town when the mayor presented the budget earlier this year.
Organisations such as Ses’khona serve no purpose except to further the ANC’s barely veiled campaign to make Cape Town and the Western Cape ungovernable. More recently we saw this House descend into anarchy because the Speaker could not maintain control over a few unruly members. But this is hardly a new thing, and the ANC should take note that the EFF has learned its behaviour from the so-called ruling party. [Interjections.]
In fact it is this kind of terminology ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker,
Mr K J MILEHAM: ... that leads to rebellion protests and revolution. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, just take your seat. What are you rising on, sir?
Mr G A GARDEE: The Democratic Alliance sits in a committee that is looking at this matter. I think that it has an impact on the processes of that committee that has got to look at the issues he is raising, and it will take us to court at the outcome because of such conduct. Can you please rule if this member is in order since he is talking about a process that is sub judice? I thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish your statement, hon member.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, it is terminology like ``ruling party’’ that leads to rebellion protests and revolution. In a democracy we expect government, not rulers. When leaders of political parties - let us name and shame them - Tony Ehrenreich, Marius Fransman, Andile Lili and even the hon Julius Malema to name but a few, call for a South African city or province to be made ungovernable, prompt action should be taken by their party to discipline them and bring them into line.
Instead of building a better South Africa for all who live here, these so-called leaders seek their two minutes of fame by actively trying to destroy the work of those that do. [Applause.]
Mr K S MUBU
Mr K J MILEHAM
R2 BILLION SPENT TO RECTIFY SHODDY WORKMANSHIP BY HOUSING CONTRACTORS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr K S MUBU (DA): Deputy Speaker, the recent revelations by the Department of Human Settlements that R2 billion has been spent to rectify the shoddy workmanship of some contractors is cause for great concern. What should worry us more is that those responsible for this act are walking free, or should I say that they are driving free in their expensive cars whilst the poor are suffering.
That nothing has been done to make them pay for their wrongful deeds shows that we are not serious about punishing those who build poor quality houses for our people. In fact I consider their actions to be criminal. They have stolen from the poor and have actually halted development. It is time that those who receive government tenders with the sole purpose of lining their pockets and not delivering quality houses for our people are made to pay back the money and banned from doing business with the state.
Only those who are serious about delivering quality houses for our people should be given contracts. The fact is that we do not have money to go around rectifying shoddy workmanship when the housing backlog is increasing. We must deal strongly with these unscrupulous contractors to ensure that our people receive quality housing. I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr K S MUBU
NATIONAL ARBOR WEEK: 1 – 7 SEPTEMBER 2014
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Deputy Speaker, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in partnership with Total South Africa, the Johannesburg City Parks and Zoo launched Arbor Week at Mofolo City in Soweto on 1 September 2014. This year’s theme is ``Forests and People: Investing in a Sustainable Future’’, which we adopted from the World Forestry Congress which will be hosted by South Africa in September 2015.
The department, in consultation with the Institute of Environmental and Recreation Management, IERM, in South Africa runs the National Arbor City Award competition and some municipalities have been rewarded for the good work they have done.
Part of the mission of the greening programme is that, by the end of the campaign on 7 September 2014, we would have planted 4 500 trees throughout the city of Johannesburg. In addition, 800 of those will be dedicated to the locales of Eldorado Park and Kliptown, because the aim is to address poverty and ensure that people have access to fruit trees they can use for their own livelihoods.
We believe that many of the members of this House participated in that process to ensure that our country remains green and we are able to give our people food to live on. With those words, I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
REFUSAL OF VISA TO DALAI LAMA
RESIGNATION OF ADV PANSY TLAKULA FROM IEC
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, on the matter related to the Dalai Lama, I think that members in this House as leaders have a responsibility. They have access to information that ordinary citizens do not. And for members to merely read the newspapers every day and come and regurgitate what they have read, is very irresponsible, I believe... [Interjections.] ...and is conduct that is very consistent with a particular opposition party in this House. We really want to urge members to do some research. [Interjections.] If you do not have access to researchers, come to the ANC. We will assist members from the other side. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, members! Give the member a chance.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Concerning this particular matter, my information is that, while we have received an application, the matter is being processed. There is no suggestion that it was rejected and so on. [Interjections.]
This, Deputy Speaker, is precisely what happened the last time. What happened the last time was that there was an application and, because there were rumours peddled by some people, the application was withdrawn before we could consider it. Now I really want to urge the members who want the eminent person to come to South Africa and visit to do everything in their power to convey the situation accurately, as it is.
Secondly, and as it pertains to the Chairperson of the IEC, I reiterate my call that, when people communicate in this House, they should endeavour to do so accurately. There was no finding of corruption against the chairperson of the IEC... [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
CALL ON GOVERNMENT TO PLACE MORATORIUM ON SHALE GAS EXPLORATION
CONDUCT OF POLITICAL PARTIES
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, I thought my colleague, the Deputy Minister of Minerals, had been named before me, but I can proceed and say that, as far as I am aware at this time, there is no exploration of shale gas. There is an intention by government that this would happen and, clearly, we would look at all the research available currently. We have noted the research studies on the United States, of course.
What one must remember is that one can often use different technologies and processes in order to explore for shale gas. Therefore, the methods that might be used in the United States would not necessarily be the method that we would seek to utilise in South Africa.
Should the exploration of whether or not there is shale gas in South Africa prove true, this will be a game changer for our economy and thus is something that we should not reject lightly. It has massive job opportunities that could turn around our challenges with respect to energy provision in South Africa. It certainly would create new manufacturing and innovation opportunities. Therefore, I do think that it is a matter certainly worth investigating and exploring. Should it and the amounts that have been referred to in early reports prove true, then it holds massive opportunity for economic development in this country.
In my opinion, let us not be quick and assume that what is done elsewhere is what we will do here exactly. Lessons of what occurs elsewhere form a useful opportunity to determine what form of technological innovation or method of exploration a country might need to consider.
I am intrigued by the reference to parties that have infantile behaviour and I would say that it would seem that the DA has woken up. [Interjections.] One response? [Interjections.] Thank you. [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
R2 BILLION SPENT TO RECTIFY SHODDY WORKMANSHIP BY HOUSING CONTRACTORS
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to agree with hon Gana on everything that he has done. The batty hon member next to him should actually be told that, if he does not grow up here, then his dummy performance in the Seriti Commission would earn him a dummy present from me. However, I want to concentrate on hon Gana.
Hon Gana, I completely agree with you. There is no way we can continue spending so much money rectifying work that should have been done properly in the first place. We are going to stop that. We are going to make sure that people build their houses properly so that we can benefit so many more people.
I think you are a very good listener and I would advise you that you are in the wrong party. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA
THE MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS - MINISTERS’ RESPONSE
THE REMUNERATION AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE OF MINEWORKERS IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, the EFF is honoured that we are taking this platform to speak about the conditions of service and remuneration of mineworkers in South Africa. We know that generations of politicians before us have been afraid to speak openly about mining, particularly on areas which threaten mine owners’ maximum profits. We are here to change that perception and perspective of South African political discourse.
The mineral resources of this country belong to all South Africans, and only through nationalisation will the country enjoy a more democratic, socialised ownership and control of mineral wealth by all, including the workers. As things stand, many of the people employed by the mining sector, and who do the hardest of the work, are black people who work in the deeper underbellies of the earth.
The mineworkers work under extremely difficult and dangerous conditions and are paid very small salaries for their labour. The dawn of democracy has not really changed the lives of many mineworkers in South Africa. Their salaries and conditions of employment are disgusting, to say the least.
An average Australian mineworker doing the same job as a South African mineworker earns at least ten times more. On average, a typical South African mineworker earns between R4 000 and R6 000 a month, while mining executives earn millions of rands per annum.
Many of these mineworkers have lost their self-esteem because of their inability to sufficiently support their families. A lot of them commit suicide because these challenges have become psychological to many of the mineworkers in South Africa. They live under extreme poverty and their livelihoods are unsustainable.
So the problem is not that mines cannot afford to pay workers fair salaries. The problem is that mining companies refuse to shed off their historical baggage and still exercise authority to continue the preapartheid and apartheid project of enslaving Africans in these mines and rejecting them in the land of their own birth.
A historical attraction for mining investors in South Africa who have been exploiting our mineral resources for generations has always been the availability of black cheap labour, labour which has been and is still working and living in slavelike conditions.
As our first motion in this House, we would like to recommend for a resolution by this Parliament that we establish a parliamentary commission on the remuneration and working conditions of mineworkers in South Africa. We propose that such a commission be set up to investigate the conditions of mineworkers, affordability of paying a salary of R12 500 per month by mining companies, the impact of transfer pricing on the South African economy and come back to this House to table a report on issues which we should resolve.
Amongst those is a resolution on a new minimum wage which should be legislation for all mineworkers in this country. Amongst the recommendations that the commission should table to this House is the legislation on what should be required of all mining corporations, privately owned and state-owned mining corporations: issues of housing, sanitation, water and health care requirements for all corporations to extract minerals in South Africa.
This Parliament would be shocked to discover that most mineworkers are paid below the agreed upon minimum wage. Most of us would be shocked at the living conditions of mineworkers. We are raising and tabling this recommendation because it is evident that mineworkers are not beneficiaries of mining in South Africa. Mineworkers have a lesser lifespan than the average South African.
They, as the Minister of Health acknowledged, are the second-largest group infected and harassed by tuberculosis infection, which is the biggest cause of death in South Africa. They are the most vulnerable group to occupational diseases and accidents. The majority of mineworkers, mostly from the Eastern and Northern Cape, are infected with occupational diseases they got from the mines. They are treated like instruments which are used and, when no longer useful, get dumped.
It can not be business as usual. We need to urgently, in an unapologetic and radical manner, change the living and working conditions of all mineworkers, including paying them a living wage of not less than R12 500 per month. I move that the House adopts the motion as it appears on the Order Paper. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M V MAFOLO
Mr J S MALEMA
Setswana:
Mme M V MAFOLO: Motlotlegi Motlatsa Mmusakgotla, maloko a a tlotlegang, ke tsenya le baeng ba rona ba ba leng fano, tshokologo e ntle ke eo. Dumelang. Nelwang ke pula ya masarasarane a mantle.
Motlotlegi Motlatsa Mmusakgotla, ke itumelela go tsaya karolo mo puisanong e e botlhokwa, e e amang matshelo, katlego le bokamoso jwa malapa le setšhaba; kgang ya seemo sa badiri ba kwa moepong.
English:
The hon Deputy Speaker and members should know that I participate in this debate with a raised nerve as the Farlam Commission is still in the process of dealing with this and related matters for our focus on this topic.
I wish to caution members of this august House and South Africans not to be misled and take the sight of red overalls and aprons to mean serious identity with the ordinary workers of our country, in particular the mineworkers of Marikana.
Setswana:
ANC ga e bue le go bonala fela fa batho ba tlhokafaletswe. Rona jaaka ANC re gotlhe, re a tshela ebile re na le tsholofelo ya bokamoso jwa batho.
English:
People should not be selective in helping the surviving widows of Marikana. There are men and children who have also lost their loved ones and, if the support was real, it would be unbiased. As the ANC we do not parade with colours to buy favour, but we know and identify with all the workers in our country. I come from Rustenburg. I know the pain and real suffering of the people of Marikana. Instead, I carry with me, like the ANC, the lived and current experience of the ordinary workers, including the mineworker. [Applause.]
As a former shop steward, I am saying all this with authority because I understand what it is like to work under difficult conditions. I know the dust from the mines in the Rustenburg area. So I am well-placed to comment on what I know, instead of parading with red colours and reciting from the podium.
This debate takes place whilst there are reflections on the horrific and gruesome murder of women like Pinky Mosiane at Anglo American Platinum on 6 February 2012 and Cynthia Setuke in 2013 at Kwezi shaft of Aquarius Platinum Kroondal in Rustenburg.
The ANC-led government passed the Mine Health and Safety Act, 1996, Act 29 of 1996, in order to allow women to work underground in the mines. This move was a progressive one as it came as a deterrent for discrimination against women in the mines. They were initially employed to do menial jobs like cleaning on the surface.
Unfortunately, women became prey to their immature male counterparts. Cases of rape, sexual assaults and murder of women underground were reported in various mining companies. As the ANC we condemn these criminal activities, and we are confident that the law will take its course. This serves as a wake-up call for mining bosses to craft and implement rigorous safety policies and follow-up with harsh disciplinary sanctions against the perpetrators.
Telling the truth to the last, the current working conditions of workers in the mines are both appalling and deplorable. Critical to this condition are the sexist tendencies and practices in the mines. This continues to be so despite a progressive move by the ANC-led government through introducing the Mine Health and Safety Act, Act 29 of 1996.
We also welcome the presentation before the mineral resource committee by the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union, Amcu, National Union of Mineworkers, Num solidarity, South African Mining Development Association, Samda, and Chamber of Mines on the issues to be considered by the committee in their strategic plan. These issues will assist greatly in improving working conditions of the employees in the mine.
It should be noted that the culture of unity among mineworkers remains an important catalyst for worker co-operation, irrespective of the union affiliation. This catalyst calls for tolerance, co-operation and mutual understanding among workers. It reduces chances for brewing tensions in the mines.
On the other hand, accommodation used for the mineworkers is not up to scratch. Accommodation is limited and not conducive for the entire family. The idea of single-sex hostels had a negative impact on the society. The ANC welcomes the commitment made by the mining companies to meet the 2014 deadline for the provision of decent accommodation for the mineworkers.
The safety gear used in the mines, as a protective measure, is inappropriate for women. It best suits their male counterparts and something urgently needs to be done in order to address this, lest the safety of women become compromised.
It is advisable to desist from having a biased approach in identifying with select unions instead of taking mineworkers as one unit - employees of the mining company. This breeds divisions, as some members get easily tempted to isolate certain workers’ unions at the expense of the others. As members, we should play a unifying role for the workers in the promotion of mutual relationships among workers affiliated to various trade workers’ unions.
Setswana:
Motlotlegi Motlatsa Mmusakgotla, fa ke garela ke rata go dira boikuelo mo boemong jwa ANC gore a re lekeng go tshegetsa maiteko mangwe le mangwe a a tla tlisang tirisano mmogo le maemo a a retebetseng kwa meepong ya rona. Re se ka ra dira dipuo le ditshwaelo tse di tlholang ntwa le karogano mo magareng ga setšhaba sa rona.
Go ka itumedisa go bona baeteledipele ba mekgatlo ya sepolotiki ba tshwaragane. Sedikwa ke ntjapedi ga se thata, gape mabogo dinku a a thebana. Rotlhe ke ka thusa go tokafatsa maemo a badiri kwa meepong ya rona.
English:
Our icon and President, Nelson Mandela, paying tribute to Comrade Tata Walter Sisulu said:
His greatness as a leader derived from his humility and his ingrained belief in and respect for collective leadership. He knew and taught us that wisdom comes from sharing insights and listening to and learning from each other. He was always the unifier, never a divider, where others of us would speak a hasty word or act in anger, he was the patient one, seeking to heal and bring together.
English:
South Africa is a better place to live in than it was before 1994. Working together, we can do more. I thank you. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
Ms M V MAFOLO
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, hon members ...
Setswana:
... Bagaetsho dumelang!
English:
The DA will move to amend the resolution proposed by the EFF. In fact, we believe that this proposed ad hoc committee must, instead of playing politics, deal with the real challenges facing our mining communities.
The DA will therefore propose that the ad hoc committee investigate the challenges we face in attracting investment into the mining sector; the loss of jobs in the mining sector; the living conditions of mineworkers in general, and President Zuma’s promises to improve the lives of the mineworkers.
Deputy Speaker, what is happening in our mining industry is an absolute disgrace. Two years after the atrocities of Marikana, we are neither closer to more dignified lives for the mineworkers, nor are we any closer to rebuilding a vibrant mining sector that creates jobs and grows the economy. The conditions that existed in Marikana prior to the massacre still in fact exist today.
Setswana:
Ke ne ke ile kwa Marikana. Ke bone ka mokgwa o batho ba rona ba tshwereng bothata ka teng. Ke bone tsela e mokgatlo wa ANC o sa agelang batho ba rona dikolo le dikliniki. Batho ba ba nnang kwa Marikana le gompieno ba santse ba tshwere bothata.
English:
People are living in poverty and have no hope. In fact, it’s for this reason that I cannot in good conscience support the EFF’s resolution. This resolution will not facilitate a discussion on the real issues.
Hon members, you see, the ANC and the EFF approach to mining will in fact be disastrous. It will mean that more mineworkers will be unemployed, and will result in more cronyism and corruption. It will hurt the very people it is supposedly meant to help. What the ANC and the EFF won’t admit today is that their plans are one and the same.
They are not on the side of job creation. They are not on the side of fixing our broken mining sector and creating hope for our people. They both follow the same principle: simply, that the state alone can decide how mining will work in South Africa.
President Zuma’s ANC think it can dictate how investment must take place through the Mineral and Petroleum
Resources Development Amendment Bill. They think they can control at what price minerals should be beneficiated, and they think they can expropriate ownership at random without risking investment.
The EFF thinks they can nationalise anything and everything - from the ocean to the banks, to the stock exchange, to the mines. Hon Malema, the ANC has already tried a state-owned mine. It’s called Alexkor Ltd and it is, in fact, a failure. Just ask the impoverished people of the Richtersveld. So, for both the ANC and the EFF, it is about enriching themselves and their cronies. Their plans are to take more control so that they can share the riches amongst themselves and their friends. They want more billionaires, which will mean poorer mineworkers.
Hon members, in the past 25 years, we have lost 400 000 jobs in gold mining. In the past six years, we have lost 40 000 jobs in platinum mining, and the mining output is down. In the first three months of this year alone, it was down to 24%.
In the last quarter of this year, the number of people employed in the mining sector has shrunk by 1,18%. Our people continue to suffer unemployment and poverty, because big politicians ignore economic reality. If we continue down this slippery slope, we will compromise our fiscal stability and grow our trade deficit. And that means less money for our schools, less money for hospitals and less money to deliver services to the impoverished mining communities across our country.
This is the solution that the DA offers: If we are to create a better life for the mineworkers, we need to have a mining sector that works, that creates jobs, that is profitable and that pays taxes to fund our developmental plans. This requires that this government spends less time killing jobs in the mining sector, and more time in delivering on its promises of improving the living conditions of the mining communities.
We must, in fact, empower the South Africans who mine to own shares in the mining houses, if they so choose, in their own private capacity. It can’t be that we empower a few billionaires who sit to my right, and ignore the fact that the ordinary workers must be able to own shares in the mines that they work in. This, in fact, is real economic justice and true transformation. [Applause.]
Hon members, this is not about creating wealth for a few connected billionaires. It is about creating a developmental partnership between miners, government and mining houses to create wealth for South Africa. We must, in fact, act on these issues, and we must act now.
We must restore investor confidence and make sure that our mines in this country are open for investment and can do business. For if we increase the level of regulation that mines have to comply with, it will in the end mean less jobs. It’s as simple as that. In fact, we must immediately improve mining towns. We must repeal job-killing legislation and reject this Minerals and Petroleum Resources Development Bill. We must shut down the nationalisation game, and let the workers ballot before a strike.
Most of all, hon members, we must admit the failings at Marikana, and show the rightful respect to those who lost their sons, fathers, uncles, cousins and brothers. We must admit these failings, and deal with them. Ke a leboga. [Thank you.] [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, you know, hon Maimane, the political economy of resource management is far much complex than what you are saying here. It’s not possible to expand the economy without control of the natural resources. This is the simple plea we are making to the society, to Parliament and to everyone else: that we take strategic control of our natural resources so that we add value to them. That is going to create more jobs, expand the economy and the revenue base as well, for the state. It’s not a narrow partisan issue that we are dealing with. It’s a simple basic thing that all of us need to appreciate in terms of how we move forward.
Now, yesterday, we had a colloquium – it was the last day - on beneficiation in the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, and the SA Mining Development Association, Samda, made its presentation. They made a presentation there about transfer pricing. They illustrated with evidence that all the mining corporations are involved in transfer pricing and the occurrences of tax base erosion and profit shifting. What is that?
It is when these multinational corporations produce goods and services, particularly like the commodities, and they sell to themselves in a tax haven in other parts of the world, but for a lower price so that they can pay lower taxes here in South Africa. That is what has been happening with the mining industry in South Africa for a very long time. All the corporations, including the ones that are owned by Black Economic Empowerment, BEE, shareholders, are involved in transfer pricing practices.
This means that the revenue that the state, the government or the Parliament can collect from the mining corporations is less. This explains the fact that the contribution of mining as a whole in the national fiscus is less than R25 billion, which cannot even fund the education of the KwaZulu-Natal. [Applause.] The budget for education in KwaZulu-Natal is about R38 billion, and it’s going to be about R41 billion in the coming financial year. That is what we are dealing with here.
We have got a mining sector which is supposed to be the richest in the world, but it can’t fund the education of just one province. Yet we are priding ourselves on the mining conditions and that the mining is the backbone in terms of what should happen.
What are we then calling for? The commander in chief of the EFF is proposing that we must establish a commission on the conditions and the remuneration of the mineworkers. Why?
That is because we have got, indirectly and directly, close to a million people who are working in mining-related activities. If you improve their working conditions and their salaries, it means that you will have improved, approximately, the lives of 10 million people, using a dependency rate of ten per person. [Applause.]
So, it is a basic call that we improve the living conditions of our people. Also, it gives you more resources in our economy for many people to expand their resources. They are there; they are available.
Last month, the University of Witwatersrand released a report about the platinum belt to check if the mineworkers who were striking for R12 500 were making a reasonable demand. The conclusion based on the financial statements of those mines: Of the money which they have not stolen and the money that they didn’t put on transfer pricing, it illustrated that the mines can afford to pay adequate salaries. Actually, they can pay even far more than the R12 500 which was the wage that was demanded by the mineworkers.
Why can’t we provide strategic leadership as South African society and as this Parliament - that we need a proper minimum wage in the mining sector in order for the communities to help the society? It’s a simple plea. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN
Mr N F SHIVAMBU
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, the working conditions of the mineworkers, we can all agree, are appalling. Their working environment makes them no better than slaves, despite their contributions to the coffers of the mineowners and the economy in general. Their remuneration is not compatible with their work and this sector is in desperate need for a minimum wage standard to be set.
Workers cannot rely on the whim of the employer for their salaries to reflect their work and, in this case, there must be a standardised salary expectation that mine bosses cannot run away from. Not only do the mineworkers encounter appalling conditions where they work, but also where they live. Families find themselves forced to live in squalor, as the men need to live close to the mines, and their employers are not moved by their plight at all.
Hon members, our government also seems to be dragging its feet in this regard. The benefactors of the BEE policies have become the new oppressors. What is difficult to understand is that they oppress their own people. Some used to lead the marches, demanding better working conditions for mineworkers, but now that they have become the employers themselves, the same demand that they were looking for then doesn’t seem to apply to them now.
The Aurora mine is an example of this type of exploitation. The mineworkers have not been paid for over two years, with some of them reduced to absolute poverty while waiting for their due salaries.
Some of those who have a stake in this mine have a relationship with the important leaders in this country, yet neither they nor the government have taken concrete steps to help resolve this issue.
As the IFP, we call for a commission of inquiry to investigate the working and living conditions of the miners and make recommendations on what appropriate remuneration is due to the mineworkers and how their living condition can be improved. This level of exploitation must not continue. Our people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, instead of being used like slaves. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Chair of the House, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members, dignity is a cornerstone value enshrined in our Constitution, a value that is worthy of protection and promotion by all South Africans. But miners are still living in miserable and squalor conditions 20 years after the end of apartheid. Many of them live in shacks where there is no electricity, water, roads, proper sanitation, schools and clinics.
The Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, Act 28 of 2002, as well as the Mining Charter places an obligation on mining companies to make provision for the improvement in social circumstances of immediate neighbouring communities as well as the distant communities from which their labour force is drawn. This has clearly not been implemented as envisaged by the Act or the Charter.
The mining industry contributes between 15% and 20% of South Africa’s gross domestic product, GDP. It employs more than 1 million people and, thus, plays a prominent role in socioeconomic upliftment in the country.
But the benefits of mining are not enjoyed by the workers and surrounding communities. The determination of wages is left to collective bargaining processes. The failure to reach a concrete agreement through a collective bargaining process during the Marikana tragedy is a clear indication of serious flaws in the current labour laws.
The main weakness of wage determination processes is attributed to the migrant labour system. This builds poorly-paid workers. They do not receive benefits such as health care and housing. Most mines continue to use labour brokers to exploit miners. The NFP believes that failure to reverse this or to scrap labour brokers is the root cause of many strikes that have occurred in the mining industry and it perpetuates poverty and inequality.
One contentious issue in the South African discourse is that of inequality as evidenced by the disparity between management remuneration and that of a general worker.
According to the Labour Research Service Survey, the average CEO’s remuneration is about R20,2 million, which is 420 times of that of a mineworker. Indeed, the CEO and general workers are in different labour market segments and do not compete for the same jobs, but such glaring disparities are bound to results in labour unrest, especially when the management fails to genuinely consider the demands for a living wage and decent working condition by a general worker.
Mineworkers are working in risky, dangerous and strenuous conditions and, for that, they should be compensated. Thank you very much. [Time expired.][Applause.]
Mr M H MATLALA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Mr M H MATLALA: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers who are here, hon members, it is not only misleading but mischievous for anyone who knows South Africa to claim that the only democratic government of South Africa has not addressed the plight of mineworkers. The building blocks for the restoration of dignity of mineworkers constitute a central tenet of the policy development and implementation of the ruling party, the beautiful ANC and its tripartite alliance.
None other than Mark Twain captures the essence of the problem facing us today when he said, I quote, ``A round man cannot be expected to fit a square hole right away. He must have time to modify his shape.’’
It is in this context that we rest our hopes on time for the round man before us.
Hon Chairperson, we have made progress in rewriting policies and legislation that seek to undo the century’s long colourful tapestry of repressive laws of the apartheid regime, designed to exclusively provide squalid working and living conditions to mineworkers and benefit from the blood and sweat of their cheap labour. The migratory labour system, prison-like hostels, unhealthy and unsafe working conditions necessarily profile some of the appalling conditions that have been endured by mineworkers prior to the democratic government of the ANC, especially for those who blow the trumpet of psychogenic historical oblivion.
Hon Chair, let me quote one of our own, Pablo Escobar, a legend. He said, ``Legends are built in many ways but part of such legends consists of accusation made by enemies, and often for their own benefit.’’
Hon Chair, our short history of governing demonstrates significant strides that we have made so far, albeit that a lot more work still lies ahead. For instance, the ANC gave workers the right to strike, embedded in the Constitution of the Republic. This right is a significant milestone that should never be taken for granted, as it is an empowering tool for workers to negotiate better working conditions.
You may recall that it was in the 1940s when the African Mineworkers Union and the Council of Non-European Trade Unions were established. During this time, the forces against change held an absolute hegemony which denied workers the right to organise. As a result, the unions emerged as one of the most effective vehicles for black opposition, which ultimately contributed to delivering democracy and freedom for all in the country.
As we traverse our policy evolution, the working and living conditions of mineworkers are steadily improving. Today, we can unashamedly declare that our regulatory interventions have substantially reduced mine fatalities from an average of more than 1 000 per annum before 1994 to well below 100 last year. Of course, one fatality is one too many, Comrade Chair, but this trend demonstrates systematic improvements in the working conditions of mineworkers. This is one of the key benefits of the effective implementation of our laws derived from the wisdom of the ANC. We are indeed on the right trajectory.
Furthermore, our policy explicitly provides for the ownership elements to include mineworkers through such structures as the Employee Share Ownership Programme, often referred to as Esop. It is unprecedented that South African black mineworkers could have such channels made available.
The channels are only made possible by the progressive, worker-focused organisation of the calibre of the ANC. The recent benefits derived from Kumba to workers mark an inspirational model of what well-structured Esop can deliver to workers to ensure that development of mineral resources does not entrench marginalisation of workers, but can deliver tangible benefits.
Our programme to eradicate single-sex hostels is progressing very well. The regulatory milestone of 100% conversion of all single-sex hostels by 2014 represents our determination to reinstate the self-worth of mineworkers. In most cases, noteworthy progress has been made to provide decent residence for mineworkers.
Our policies and the determination of the deep-rooted unions have jointly made it possible to incrementally improve remuneration packages of mineworkers, not specific mineworkers like Marikana mineworkers that people are referring to. While we still have some way to go in order to close the unsustainable salary differential between the highest and the lowest-paid employees in the mines, we must recognise the progress made to date in dealing with the emotive subject.
In conclusion, I draw from the wisdom of Plato to appositely locate the basis of the motion under discussion, that is, ``Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.’’ Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms C N MAJEKE
Mr M H MATLALA
Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon Speaker and hon members, it is crucial to acknowledge the importance of the remuneration and conditions of service of mineworkers in South Africa. Mineworkers play an integral part in our economy and they should be recognised for the service they provide.
The UDM calls on government to set up a commission on mining to, among others, investigate the socioeconomic conditions of the workers and the surrounding communities; to investigate the mineworkers’ access, or lack thereof, to a provident fund worth billions of rands; the investment of workers’ money, especially in cases where the workers were retrenched, or have retired or passed away; and the ownership of mines and mineral wealth, the allocation of mining rights, as well as who benefits from these mines.
We are pleased that platinum producers such as Anglo American Limited, Impala Platinum Holdings Limited and Lonmin reached a settlement of the negotiations with regard to wages and conditions of service with the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union on 25 June 2014.
The chief executive officers, CEOs, of the aforementioned mines have stated that much work needs to be done to improve the lives of our employees and members of our communities, working hand in hand with government. I thank you.
Mr W M MADISHA
Ms C N MAJEKE
Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Chair, part of the reason why so many people turn to violence stems from anger between themselves and the democratic Parliament. Things were meant to be different but few of our nation’s problems ever get to be discussed in this House.
Cope therefore welcomes the opportunity to discuss the remuneration of mineworkers and their service conditions. In fact, we need to address even more fundamental questions: For how long will miners continue to be migrants with a family back home and perhaps a family in their place of work? For how long will miners be denied proper accommodation, municipal services and recreational facilities? For how long will their exploitation continue?
It is common cause that miners are underpaid and, to add insult to injury, they do not have state benefits in the form of housing so that families can live as families. The state and mine owners need to co-operate to improve the living conditions and family integrity of mineworkers. Mineworkers need to be recipients of profit sharing and shareholding. Marginal mines should not shut down but should be made available to mine worker co-operatives so that they can continue in existence for the benefit of mineworkers as well as for the good of the economy.
The Impala Platinum Holdings Limited, Implats, chief executives Chris Griffiths said that in contrast to his salary of more than R17 million last year, the men who risked their lives every time they went underground were not even worth R12 500. Although he apologised for this remark, the disparity is just too enormous and the benefits accruing to the executives and mineworkers are just too disparate. We need to follow the Nordic model of injecting a healthy dose of socialism into the capitalist order of the day. In the complex world of today, it is not either/or but a well-balanced combination of both.
The issue of remuneration and the conditions of service of mineworkers in South Africa must continue to receive serious attention, both for the sake of those who work in the mines and the rest of the society that benefit from their contribution to the economy. Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I know it may be a bit boring at this time of the day. Can we converse quietly so that we don’t drown out the speaker at the podium.
Mrs C DUDLEY
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
Mrs C DUDLEY: The ACDP does not agree with the EFF motion. In our opinion the Marikana Commission is dealing with these issues. Once the findings are presented to the President, then Parliament can respond through the relevant portfolio committees on police, mineral resources and labour.
I am personally very grateful that I have not had to consider mining as a career, and I admire those who do this work that many of us can’t or won’t do. I can’t imagine any amount of salary compensating for the danger and discomfort of working underground.
Of course directors and managers earnings big salaries will be only too happy to assume workers are satisfied if workers don’t raise the issue in a manner that shows the degree of dissatisfaction adequately. New research in fact shows that huge profits in the past decade were given to investors while workers benefited little, suggesting that if this had not occurred, workers could reasonably have been earning the wage they are now striking for.
Interestingly though, compared to mineworkers in major `developing world’ countries like China, where they earn the equivalent of US$174 or India where they earn US$102 a month, South African workers and platinum mineworkers, in particular, who are earning R5 000 a month - just over US$R600 - are, by comparison, better off.
Then there is the plight of the South African factory workers who are earning less than platinum miners but still more than their counterparts in China or India and Bangladesh where factory workers apparently earn even less than those in China. In this industry, more maybe than in any other industry, we have felt the pain of global competition, and textile jobs have declined significantly.
It makes sense that platinum mineworkers earn more than the South African factory workers when we consider that South Africa has more than 80% of the world’s proven platinum reserves. Our platinum miners also don’t face the same kind of international competition. Yes, Australian miners do apparently earn almost 10 times what our platinum miners earn, the difference being credited to output per worker or productivity. Now, the US is one of the most productive economies in the world and seen as the standard. Australia is on average about 20% less productive but, in both cases, it is technologies and management techniques that improve productivity.
If, however, this means fewer and not more jobs, it may not be an ideal situation in our case when so many people are out of work and the gap between the haves and the have-nots in South Africa grows daily.
While the wage debate will no doubt continue, working conditions need urgent attention. South Africa has taken significant steps since the end of apartheid to address working conditions in the mining industry but there is still a lot of room for improvement.
The ACDP calls on government to ensure better implementation of existing mining regulations, especially when it comes to the health and safety of miners. The ACDP also call on government to increase funding for health and safety research, the lack of which has negatively impacted on the industry and its workers. Thank you. [Time expired.][Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza ): When the hon Ollis came back to the House, I could hear that he was here.
Mr M P GALO
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
Mr M P GALO: Hon Chair, it is a fact that South Africa is known for its mining industry. This is what put it on the global business map. It is abundant in precious metals and stone, aside from coal. In fact, mining is what propelled migrants, foreign settlers, and big businesses to set up chain stores in the country.
The British came because of the diamonds, and the first Anglo-Boer War of 1880 erupted because of the annexing of certain diamond mines or fields. The second Anglo-Boer War was heavily influenced, on the other hand, by gold mining. Randlords like Cecil Rhodes and De Beers, who consolidated mines in this country, left the legacy of poor working conditions and the exploitation of black mineworkers.
The AIC is shocked but not surprised that, after 20 years of the so-called democracy, black mineworkers in this country are still exploited and working under appalling and unacceptable conditions. This is because of the fact that this country is led by transactional leaders as opposed to value-based leaders. If this was not the case, the Marikana massacre would have been avoided.
In conclusion, hon Chair, the AIC - believing in human dignity, respect, tolerance and understanding - is not impressed by the political grandstanding and lumpen radicalism tendencies, which are demonstrated by some political parties in this House. Let us be robust in engaging but not chaotic. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon members.
Hon Ollis, I was just recognising the fact that you are back in the House. I could hear you.
Mr I A PIKININI
Mr M P Galo
IsiXhosa:
Mnu I A PIKININI: Mandibulise Mhlalingaphambili ohloniphekileyo, ndibulise kubaPhathiswa abahloniphekileyo nooSekela baPhathiswa abahloniphekileyo, ndibulise kwakhona koogxa bam kunye naphaya phezulu. Enkosi kakhulu.
English:
I rise to place the struggle of the mineworkers in the broader context, of evolution of work in South Africa.
IsiXhosa:
I-ANC ineziThwalandwe. Siya kukhumbula uSolomon Plaatje ...
English:
... the first Secretary-General of the ANC, the legend who had started the fight for miners before 2012. We began this fight a long time ago.
IsiXhosa:
Asiyiqalanga namhlanje. Ngoku ke kubalulekile ukuba siyazi ukuba siyazazi iimfuno zabantu.
English:
Solomon Plaatje described the lives of the black miners in 1914 in the following words:
Two hundred thousand subterranean heroes who, by day and by night, for a mere pittance, lay down their lives to the familiar 'fall of rock' and who, at deep levels ranging from 1,000 to 3,000 feet in the bowels of the earth, sacrifice their lungs to the rock dust which develops miners' phthisis and pneumonia.
In 1941 when the decision to launch the Mine Workers’ Union was canvassed, the African mineworkers were paid an annual salary of R70 at that time whereas white mineworkers were paid an annual salary of R848. In 1946, the year of the great strike, the wages were as follows: Africans were earning R87, white mineworkers were earning R1 106. In other words the wage gap between the white mineworkers and the black workers was 12:1.
This issue lies at the heart of our history. From the days of the earliest settlers in the Cape, a central conflict has been about who would do the work, under which conditions and who would get the profits? It is not a coincidence that the Slave Lodge is just a block from where we are sitting today, at the heart of historic Cape Town.
In this struggle, workers for decades paid a terrible cost: suffering from inadequate pay and unsafe conditions; migrant labour; the repression of organisations; the murder of activists; and the massacre of strikers at that time.
Their struggle was never ended or fully suppressed, and it forged an organised working class whose militancy, dedication and depth of experience is a pillar of our democracy. Indeed, it is no accident that labour rights formed a central claim of the Freedom Charter, and that today they are enshrined in our Constitution. It follows that we need to evaluate our progress as a democracy, largely in terms of how well we have overcome the legacies of apartheid in the workplace.
On the plus side, in the Constitution and labour laws, the ANC-dominated Parliament has entrenched workers’ right to organise, negotiate and to strike. We have gone far in legislating minimum standards for employment security, pay, leave and working hours. The dispute settlement system established through the CCMA and bargaining councils are efficient and fair compared to laborious and slow pre-1994 requirements.
The skills system lays a framework for increased resources for all workers.
IsiXhosa: Ithini le nto kanye kanye?
English:
It is also disappointing that the share of workers in unions and bargaining councils has not increased in the past 20 years. Union density has not gone down but in a democratic order with strong labour rights, it should go up. It has remained stuck at around 30% for the past two decades.
Any real democracy means the collective voice of workers as a counterbalance to the power of big business. We need to ask what the state can do to support worker organisations, especially in hard-to-organise industries like agriculture also? While we have transformed much of the labour market, we have not done enough to transform relations within the workplace.
Before 1994, the majority of workers faced profound inequalities as well as unfair and arbitrary decision-making at work. Supervisors had little training and often had no respect for their subordinates. pPay systems and work organisations were designed to ensure that few black workers got any recognition for seniority or had a chance at promotion. Facilities were unfairly divided and often inadequate.
This system bred conflict and difficult wage negotiations.
If your only chance of improving your condition is to fight for a higher base improvement, then negotiations will always be difficult and subject to conflict. In an equal society, if you have no chance of promotion, your only hope is to fight for higher base pay. Where communication with supervisors is poor, disagreements are high. In short, we need to do more to transform these workplace systems as part of the second phase of our transition, the phase of radical economic transformation.
Our most important move was in Public Service where the democratic government equalised pay scales, defined salary levels and provided for seniority notches.
We need to engage on how to improve the work experience for the workers, especially in large formal companies like the mines. A survey by Cosatu in 2012 found that a quarter of black workers felt that they were abused on the job. That figure speaks volumes about the need to find smart ways to influence the nature of our workplaces. Central to the challenge are the profound inequalities that still plague our economy. The share of remuneration and total value added has generally fallen since 1994, as employers have captured the bulk of value created through higher profits and growth. This has been especially true in mining, where soaring world metal prices before 2011 mostly added to profits.Since 2011, metal prices have on the whole declined substantially, adding to difficulties in the industry.
Where CEOs and investors take home millions, we cannot expect workers to wait patiently for improvements in their working and living conditions. The continuation of the migrant labour system imposes huge costs on workers. This has increased the levels of debt as mashonisas exploit the situation and dig workers deeper into financial trouble. Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.]
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
Mnu I A PIKININI
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair, I just want to quote Prof Robert Sobukhwe and D F Malan. Prof Robert Sobukhwe, when he was still a member of the congress youth league is the first leader, as the protégé of Mr Mda, who used to go to political meetings wearing an overall. Therefore, D F Malan said that when you embark on a revolution you should not compromise or you might just lose. So, at that time, he was embarking on Afrikaner nationalism. The problem that we are experiencing now is the compromised revolution.
In 1994, when the ANC was negotiating through Codesa, ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Can we please converse quietly so that we don’t drown out the speaker at the podium.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: ... they compromised black people. In other words, what we are trying to address today was lost in 1994. I know most of the leaders here hallucinate about nationalisation. They talk about destructive revolution. [Interjections.]
What I am trying to say, hon members, is that what we need in South Africa is to understand that the majority of the owners of this country did not benefit before apartheid and even after apartheid, particularly the mineworkers. This is not an issue that we can politicise and use to score points.
The truth is that those who benefited before democracy still continue to benefit even today. The issue is that we need to agree on how we resolve these issues. I think if we have parliamentary committees like the commission that we have, I hope the Deputy President of this country will be vindicated, because if he is not vindicated, he will be the classic example of those liberation heroes who betrayed their souls for material gain.
I am sure you knew that we have a situation where this democratic dispensation is not talking to the needs of our people. We have a situation where this democracy benefits those who benefited before, particularly in the mining industry and, in the broader sense, all workers. [Time expired.]
Mr S S A Mphethi
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
Mr S S A MPHETHI: Madam Chair, Ministers and all members of the National Assembly, I greet you all in the name of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe. I say: Izwe lethu! [Our country.]
We are talking today about mining and this has something to do with land. You cannot talk about mining without land. That is the genesis. It is unfortunate that in South Africa they will say you own ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Sorry, hon member. Hon members, can you please speak quietly?
Mr S S A MPHETHI: They do not respect me. [Laughter.]
You cannot talk about land without mining and you cannot talk about mining without land. That is the beginning – Genesis - ke mathomomayo. It is unfortunate that some of us own farms, and then these people who are rich just come there and mine in my farm. When I talk they say that it is not your minerals. Therefore, it is a problem.
Let us start with the ownership. Why do I own the surface only and not the surface and the underground? It is because I am not politically connected, therefore I cannot get the mining licence. People are just coming onto my farm and taking the minerals and going, and then I am left with the farm. So, please, protect us.
The PAC condemned and will condemn the killing of mineworkers in Marikana and other mines in Limpopo, especially in the Burgersfort area - because it reminds us of the Sharpeville Massacre of March 21, 1960, and the Soweto Upraising in 1976.
The longest strike that we experienced in the mining industry, when they demanded R12 500, was correct. As Comrade Malema already mentioned, the Australian mineworkers are earning R40 000, as compared to our mineworkers who are earning only R4 000. It is a disgrace indeed.
Some of us worked in the mining industry and were still poor when we left that industry. [Interjections.] Yes, I have got a farm because I am clever.
We say that mineworkers should be the shareholders of the mines because the land where capitalists are mining today has been stolen from their forefathers and, even today, that land has not been returned to its rightful owners. So we are saying that we should have the portfolio committees look into these matters. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza) : It looks like the debate is warming up, and there is some excitement now. But, in our excitement, let us just allow the speakers to be heard. Hon Lorimer.
Mr J R B LORIMER
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza)
Mr J R B LORIMER: Madam House Chair, what a surprise to hear the PAC come out in favour of privately owned mineral rights!
This debate has largely avoided some of the major issues. It has consisted of much grandstanding, particularly on the part of the ruling party and the son of the ruling party, as they are both trying to win the votes of the mineworkers and the crown of the biggest radicals in the House.
We’ve had 12 speeches in which the plight of miners’ job security has featured only twice: In the speeches by the DA as well as the ACDP. Well done to the ACDP, who did their homework. Let us do our homework about miners’ salaries. The Central Statistical Service quarterly employment report says that the average pay in the mining sector is higher than the average pay in manufacturing, construction and retail, and almost the same as the financial, intermediation, insurance, real estate and business service industries. Therefore, pay is no more an issue in mining than it is elsewhere in the economy.
You have heard about the 13 000 mining jobs that we lost last year. Unfortunately, I think we are going to lose more this year. When you talk about lost jobs, you are talking about people really losing their foothold in the economy. What happens when you lose your mining job? You are very unlikely to get another job and you go home to your rural area. You are very unlikely to ever get a job that pays as much.
This government persists in passing labour laws which guarantee adversarial labour relations. Mix the failed labour regime with unions that care more about the comfort and power of their leaders, and you have a toxic cocktail. One of the least commented on threats that confronts miners is posed by the conflict between different unions and between workers and the police.
The EFF motion has the intention to allow government to regulate the wages of miners. If the government tries to do so, it will fail. The government can never have as much information as it needs to cover thousands of different situations on different mines. The EFF so loves the poor that it wants to create millions more of them. You can bet your bottom dollar that none of its members here wants to be in their ranks.
Hon Malema, you wear an overall for the TV cameras but you are a worker of a special type. Anybody with an R18 million tax bill has got to be getting paid as much as some of the richest of the mine owners. [Applause.] There has been some bashing of mine owners in this debate, but who are these mine owners? Well, they are on this side of the House: The hon Deputy President, the hon Minister of Mineral Resources and the hon Speaker, whose black economic empowerment deal sparked an investigation by the United States Securities and Exchange Commission. [Interjections.]
Now, I really cannot let hon Matlala go without comment. You quoted one Pablo Escobar and described him as ``one of our own’’. Most people know of Pablo Escobar as an infamous Columbian drug lord. [Interjections.] You have some funny hero, Sir, but then, on reflection, perhaps that explains some more about the government mining policy. [Laughter.]
We had another first today. We were lectured on economic complexity by the EFF. [Interjections.] I will say, hon Shivambu, that you almost got something right. Mines pay a lot less as a percentage to the government revenues now than they used to – a lot less. But the reason for that is that the government has made mining so unattractive in this country that the mining investors have left, and they have taken those jobs with them. Now, you can impose as many conditions as you like on miners, but the reality is that if it gets too tough for them and they are not making money, they will go, and the jobs will go too. So, you can force them but it is not going to happen.
Hon Pikinini, thank you for the short history lesson. Perhaps you should be thinking more about the issues in the industry after 20 years of ANC mining policy. All of this adds up to a struggle for influence and for money on the part of the ANC and the EFF who, one suspects, are much more concerned with creating billionaires than creating jobs in mining. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr J R LORIMER
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, I am thankful for the opportunity to participate in this important debate today. Ministers, Deputy Ministers present, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, comrades and friends, on the 60th anniversary of the 1946 mineworkers’ strike, Parliament resolved as follows:
... that the living and working conditions of mineworkers be investigated further, and be improved; to support the initiative by the National Union of Mineworkers, NUM, to build a workers’ museum; and that Parliament gives consideration to naming some of its buildings after JB Marks, a leader of the African Mineworkers’ Union, and other struggle heroes.
It is therefore not necessary to come with new resolutions but to continue to implement this resolution and other programmes that we have implemented already. So the ANC will reject the resolution by the EFF.
This forms part of the continued commitment of the ANC-led government to achieve a national minimum wage for all workers, including mineworkers, farm workers, domestic workers, and those who are vulnerable. The Department of Labour, through that National Economic Development Labour Council, is seized with this matter.
The struggle for better living and working conditions of mineworkers is historical, and continues to be of utmost priority for the ANC. Therefore, it is really a distortion of history for the hon member who was here before to come and say that the generations before the EFF were afraid to talk about the struggles of mineworkers, and that nationalisation is, therefore, something which came just yesterday.
It was in 1931 – just to give a lesson on history – that the ANC sponsored resolutions to support the formation of a trade union for African mineworkers. To give effect to that, on 3 August 1941, the ANC pressed ahead with strengthening the African mineworkers and, by 1944, the membership of that union was in the thousands. The response of the Smuts government and the Chamber of Mines to this was lukewarm.
In 1943... [Interjections.]
I’m coming to you now.
... the government set up the Lansdowne Commission to investigate the living and working conditions in the industry. Even the recommendation of the Wage Board to Parliament was simply turned down.
It was in 1994 that the ANC started to change the laws of the country and streamline them to be aligned with our democratic dispensation. The law that we are talking about here – the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act and its transformation charter – is one such transformation piece of legislation. This law gave the mining industry 10 years to transform the ownership patterns to include blacks, women and mining communities as part of this change.
The year 2014, therefore, is the year where full implementation of this law must be realised. We cannot become instant revolutionaries now and try to run whilst we are here. We have arrived as the ANC. It is difficult to argue with people who have the laws in front of them – they distort them, they come and talk about mineworkers and some of them have never seen an underground mine in their lives.
I have worked in the mining industry for 14 years, and I know it very well – you cannot come and do that. [Interjections.] The people who can talk with authority on mines are the ANC comrades, not you. [Applause.]
One of the members came here and told us that people just go to his farm, take it and mine it without his permission. Our laws do not allow that. Nobody goes to your farm and just mines. The law says they have to consult. It is embarrassing to say this in public since you are a Member of Parliament who has sworn to protect the laws that we have passed. Now you come here and distort the very same laws that you have to give to the public of South Africa. [Interjections.]
Experience has taught us that there are mining companies in this country that have done well in improving the living and working conditions of mineworkers. Marikana is not the only place where mining is taking place in this country. There are over 1 700 mines in this country; Marikana is just one of them. Go to Postmasburg today - because you only know Marikana - and see how the lives of mineworkers have improved; how the living and working conditions have improved; how people have moved in line with the Charter that was passed by this Parliament to ensure that we eradicate single hostels and build family units. This government, under the leadership of Comrade Jeff Radebe, is busy looking into the very same matter to ensure the improvement that you are talking about today. Regrettably, there are mining companies that are still lagging behind. As the Department of Mineral Resources we are going to be unflinching in ensuring that compliance of our laws take place during this year. [Interjections.]
Let me also report that during our Budget Vote this year, we raised a strong objection about the attitude of the Chamber of Mines and their successive oppressive regime towards the demands of mineworkers. In 1946, the Secretary of the African Mine Workers Union J J Majoro, under the Presidency of J B Marks, wrote a letter to the Chamber of Mines about the demands of mineworkers. The Chamber neither acknowledged nor responded to that letter.
Following our objection to that kind of arrogance and insensitivity, the current President of the Chamber of Mines, Mr Mike Teke, acknowledged that letter and responded in a limited way. We have a copy of his response and I must say that it was 68 years later.
The National Union of Mineworkers, NUM, in its memorandum to the Chamber of Mines on 12 August 2006 refers to this persistent attitude that continues across generations to this day. They further declared that the underlying spirit of J B Marks, J J Majoro, Thabo Mofutsanyana and Moses Kotane will continue to lead mineworkers in the current period and that,I quote, “with our action now, we promise not to falter. Ke lame leo.’’
The leader of the DA came here to blame the ANC for atrocities that mine bosses have created against mineworkers. How a historical ... Saved by the gong, heh! [Time expired.]
Mr J S MALEMA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr J S MALEMA: Chairperson, it looks like the Deputy Minister is going to be a Deputy Minister for a very long time, because he lacks a grasp of the issues. [Laughter.] Deputy Minister, here we are proposing a parliamentary committee, not the one announced by the President. The one announced by the President is a government process. Learn to separate these two institutions. If you do that, you will do very well as a Deputy Minister.
Now, we are mentioning Marikana because people were killed there. We mention it deliberately because it pains you. We are going to mention it until you become red, because you don’t want to hear it! It doesn’t mean we don’t know this country. We know this country. We – some of us - have been to every corner of this country, and therefore you are not qualified to tell us that we mention Marikana because we don’t know other mines. It is naïve to even suggest that people can only talk about the mines if they have been underground. That is so petty and naïve. It does not mean that, if you have not been underground, you do not know what the real issues are in the mining sector. Your argument proves very well that you are a very good student of Gwede Mantashe, because that is his argument.
Hon Lorimer, the tax bill is not R18 million; it stands at R1,5 million, and please...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, the hon leader of the EFF is being personal in his attack on the Deputy Minister, and that is not allowed in this House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, Chief Whip. I will consult and report back at the end of the discussion. Hon Malema, please continue.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Lorimer, it is not R18 million; the latest is R1,5 million. So don’t embarrass your children with figures because they might laugh at your kids at school and say that their father speaks about things he knows nothing about. So, be careful about such issues.
Now, you must tell Maimane that, it... [Interjections.] ... the crisis we are facing... [Interjections.]
Tell hon Maimane that the crisis we are facing today is not as a result of nationalisation. It is as a result of the neo-liberal policies he is speaking about. Those policies have plunged us into the crisis we find ourselves in today. To therefore suggest that the proposals of the EFF – which have not been tested as yet – are going to lead us into a crisis is wrong. Neo-liberal capitalist policies have not worked. They have created crises for Africa, and you, the representatives of capital, should be ashamed that your people are suffering till today. [Interjections.]
None of you can tell us of what happens after being retrenched from work. We know poverty. We have lived poverty, and we understand the pain of poverty. You only read about it. We are in this situation through your people whom you are here to defend.
Therefore we say to you that you must make it clear to hon Maimane that no one will take away the right of mineworkers to strike. There is no new Rule...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema...
Mr J S MALEMA: ...which is going to be made by this Parliament. The Rules are sufficient and we will protect...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema...
Mr J S MALEMA: ...those Rules. And the ANC, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema, your time has expired. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: ... if you can’t regulate the mining sector, the workers are going to... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema...
Mr J S MALEMA: ... lead themselves in a revolution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema...
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Matlala, you don’t qualify to call anyone a fool. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema, can you please come back to the podium.
In consultation with the Table and also considering the Rules and precedents of the House, I have to say that the statements you made – in which you cast aspersions on the Deputy Minister, saying he is naïve and so on – were an attack on the character of the Deputy Minister. I would ask you to withdraw.
Mr J S MALEMA: I am not going to do that, Chair. [Interjections.] For a Minister to say that people can talk about the mines only if they have been underground is petty, lacking in substance, and naïve.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema...
Mr J S MALEMA: I’m not going to do it!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, can I please address you on the process and precedents of this House?
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema, please take a seat. Yes, hon Shivambu?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, in all the debates we have had in this House, hon Maimane and hon Malema have referred to many issues, and said things differently. You can’t now invent a new Rule because the commander in chief has criticised a Deputy Minister. [Interjections.]
So we really need to be consistent because we will question what members say in this House every time, and we will question if they understand the context within which things arise. We have been doing that throughout. You can’t now invent a new Rule because we are exposing the naivety of the Deputy Minister.
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Gardee, please take your seat.
Since there is a debate on whether or not the ruling is correct, I would ask that we come back to this matter. I will consult further. Hon Malema, you may take your seat.
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I now put the motion. Are there any objections?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, the DA would like to propose an amendment to the resolution on the Order Paper today: To omit all the words after “That” and to substitute with the following:
The House, noting the decimating impact of unemployment and turbulent labour relations on already impoverished mining communities, to establish an ad hoc committee to –
- enquire into the living conditions of mining communities and the work done by government to improve their lives;
- review whether President Jacob Zuma has met promises he made to improve labour relations and the working conditions of mine workers in his 2014 state of the nation address;
- investigate the impact of declining investment in the mining sector on unemployment and quality of life within mining communities;
- propose measures to improve labour relations within the mining sector to prevent protracted strikes in future and restore investor confidence;
- consist of 11 members, as follows: ANC 6, DA 3, EFF 1 and other parties 1;
- exercise the powers in Rule 138 it may deem necessary for the performance of its task; and
- report to the Assembly on 31 October 2014.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I now put the amendment to the motion of Mr J S Malema, as moved by the Chief Whip of the Opposition. Are there any objections?
Question put: That the amendment moved by the Chief Whip of the Opposition be agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, we oppose both of them. By the way, they are the same – they just changed the language. The ad hoc committee ... [Interjections.] We oppose the motion and we oppose the amendment, because the work that we are being asked to do is being undertaken, as we speak, by the Portfolio Committee on Labour. We don’t need this ad hoc committee, whatever it’s colour, shape or size. This is the same thing. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I now put the question to the House. Those in favour will say “Aye”.
Hon MEMBERS: Aye.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Those against will say “No”.
Hon MEMBERS: No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I think the ``Noes have it’’.
If parties want their objections to be recorded ...
Division demanded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! A division having been called, the bells will be rung for five minutes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Please take your seats.
I wish to clarify that what we are voting for now is the amendment proposed by the Chief Whip of the Opposition.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question not agreed to.
Amendment according negatived.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I now put the motion as it appears on the Order Paper.
Question put: That the motion moved by Mr J S Malema be agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I repeat, hon Chair, that there is work on the same matter being undertaken by the labour committee. There is no need for us to create another parallel structure. We object to the motion.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I now put the question. Those in favour will say “Aye”.
Hon MEMBERS: Aye.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Those against will say “No”.
Hon MEMBERS: No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I think the ``noes’’ have it. Hon Shivambu?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, we would like to call for a division.
Division demanded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! A division having been called, the bells will be rung for one minute.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question not agreed to.
Motion accordingly not agreed to.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, may I address you? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, we have just voted. There can be no point of order now.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I just wanted to suggest that the DA can now join the ruling party on the other side.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): We could even welcome the EFF joining the other side. I don’t which one.
The House adjourned at 17:42.
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