Hansard: NA: Debate on Vote No 2 – Parliament

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 22 Jul 2014

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 30

TUESDAY, 22 JULY 2014

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

____________________

The House met at 14:05.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

START OF THE DAY

NO NOTICES OF MOTION AND MOTIONS AS REFERRED TO IN RULE 97(g) FROM 22 TO 24 JULY 2014

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the Draft Resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

That the House, notwithstanding Rule 29, which provides for the sequence of proceedings, resolves that there will be no notices of motion and motions as referred to in Rule 97(g) from Tuesday, 22 July 2014 to Thursday, 24 July 2014.

Agreed to.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

RESUMPTION OF PROCEEDINGS ON CERTAIN BILLS

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the Draft Resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

That the House resumes proceedings on the following Bills from the stage that they reached on the last sitting day of the Sixth Session of the Fourth Parliament:

(1) Integrated Coastal Management Amendment Bill [B 8F – 2013]; and

(2) Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill [B 6 – 2014].

Agreed to.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

RESUMPTION OF PROCEEDINGS ON CERTAIN BILLS

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the Draft Resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

That the House resumes proceedings on the Defence Amendment Bill [PMB 8 – 2013] and the Medical Innovation Bill [PMB 1 – 2014] from the stage at which they were referred to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans and the Portfolio Committee on Health, respectively, in the Sixth Session of the Fourth Parliament.

Agreed to.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

APPOINTMENT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE TO BRIEF MEMBERS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY PRIOR TO DEBATE ON VOTE 10

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, I move the Draft Resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That the House, noting the imminent appointment of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence upon the finalisation of all legal prescripts, appoint an ad hoc committee to allow members of the National Assembly to be briefed prior to the debate on Vote No 10: National Treasury (State Security), the committee –

(1) to consist of 11 members with top-secret security clearance, as follows: ANC - D E Dlakude, Z S Dlamini-Dubazana, D D Gamede, D M Gumede, C C September, J J Skosana; DA – D J Stubbe; EFF – D L Twala; IFP – A M Mpontshane; NFP – S C Mncwabe; and UDM – B H Holomisa;

(2) to conduct its proceedings in closed session in terms of Rule 152(1)(b)(iv) and members to conduct their functions in a manner consistent with the protection of national security;

(3) to exercise those powers in Rule 138 it may deem necessary for the performance of its task; and

(4) to cease to exist upon the completion of the debate on Vote No 10: National Treasury (State Security).

Agreed to.

The SPEAKER

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 31

APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 2 – Parliament:

The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and hon members, our celebration of 20 years of democracy is an occasion to reflect on the long walk we began as a country some 20 years ago. It is an occasion to celebrate the remarkable endurance of political institutions such as Parliament, and our Constitution, and the remarkable spirit of the people of this country.

Over the course of the last 20 years the lives of our people have improved vastly, and South Africa is indeed a much better place than it was before 1994.

In particular, this Parliament has played an instrumental role in crafting and adopting the Constitution, repealing destructive apartheid laws, putting in place hundreds of pieces of legislation and introducing systems to safeguard this democracy. These are by no means small feats, but are achievements that we should be proud of.

A few days ago I had the honour of representing our people and Parliament at the UN's international celebration of Nelson Mandela Day in New York. To the billions who have been inspired and will remain inspired by our father Nelson Mandela, he is more than a symbol of the victory of justice over injustice. Nelson Mandela represents the potential of every human being to create change in themselves, in their country, and in the world.

Upon Archbishop Desmond Tutu's retirement from public life, Nelson Mandela urged:

As long as many of our people still live in utter poverty; as long as children still live under plastic covers; as long as many of our people are still without jobs; no South African should rest and wallow in the joy of freedom.

We must heed Madiba's wise words. It is now left to each one of us to carry forward the noble ideals for which he and other freedom fighters stood, fought and died.

The Fifth Parliament, the next stage of our historic journey, presents not only enormous challenges, but also exciting opportunities. Yet, we must recognise that the world is radically changing. We must recognise, too, that our nation and our world are under severe financial, security and environmental strain. We must recognise that the demands on and of parliamentary democracy now and in the future are somewhat different to those of the past.

As we reflect on the current Budget Vote for Parliament, let us do so critically, but also with innovation and foresight, steadfast in our resolve to use financial and other resources with the utmost care and responsibility.

As the democratically elected representatives of our people, we have the honourable task of ensuring government by the people under the Constitution. In our doing so, I urge all parties represented in this Chamber to heed the clarion call, which has been amplified by the ANC, for a robust, engaging, relevant and activist Parliament, a Parliament that asserts its rightful role and status as one of the key institutions of democracy, one that not only holds government answerable but also accountable for more effective and efficient service delivery. I say this, ever mindful of the fact that Parliament itself remains accountable to our people for ensuring that their needs find expression and are addressed at all times.

Let us also accept this opportunity to refine our role in a new form of social compact, toward realising the development goals of our nation, entrenching democracy and contributing to nation-building.

As we begin to engage with our responsibilities as the Fifth Parliament and to chart the way forward, it is useful for us to reflect on the key developments and legacy issues emanating from our predecessors in the Fourth Parliament.

I also wish to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to the previous Speakers of this Parliament for their contribution to shaping and deepening democracy in our country. They have contributed greatly to ensuring that this institution is one of the key pillars of our democracy.

The Fourth Parliament undertook an extensive process of restructuring its institutional support structure to ensure that the institution is suitably positioned to support Members of Parliament. Whilst we acknowledge the strides made in the restructuring process, we must also ensure that the process under way is aligned to the forthcoming strategic plan of the Fifth Parliament. We must address the outstanding challenges in this regard, so as to finalise the restructuring process during this financial year.

Let us also be mindful of our responsibility not only to pass progressive labour laws, but also to ensure that we ourselves adhere to and implement these laws as far as possible.

Our predecessors undertook an ambitious project of developing and refining Parliament's structures and procedures to ensure that new and implementable rules and procedures respond to our changing circumstances.

The Fifth Parliament is expected to apply its mind to the new proposals that have come via the Rules Committee and, once there is broad agreement, to adopt these for implementation. The Rules Committee will hasten the implementation of proposals.

During the Fourth Parliament the quality and constitutionality of legislation came into sharp focus due to the fact that numerous Bills were challenged in the Constitutional Court. Pursuant to this, a number of corrective measures were introduced to ensure that our laws are in keeping with the letter and spirit of the Constitution at all times. A Legal Drafting Unit was established, with members across the political spectrum expressing satisfaction with the work this unit produced.

This unit is now in the process of procuring an electronic drafting system – something which was alluded to by the former Speaker in his Budget Speech in 2013. The new system will assist committees and Members of Parliament to draft and effect amendments to Bills and publishing in real time.

The unit has also compiled a list of pieces of legislation that require constitutional amendment as per constitutional requirements, Constitutional Court judgments, public opinion or gaps identified while assisting committees. It is envisaged that these proposed amendments will be effected by way of committee Bills in the Fifth Parliament. We must continue to support and strengthen the work of this unit.

The Fourth Parliament focused much of its energy and resources on enhancing the functioning of parliamentary committees. This was done by reviewing the nature and quality of support available to them, as well as the mechanisms to implement the oversight and accountability model. Under the leadership of the Fourth Parliament a number of interventions to strengthen committees were proposed.

As the Fifth Parliament, we must continue to build on this important work and apply our minds to how best to implement the oversight model to ensure that we sharpen our oversight function.

The Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act 9 of 2009, laid the foundation for the kind of activist Parliament we envisage. The Money Bills Act and the establishment of the Parliamentary Budget Office are arguably the most radical scrutiny tools at our disposal.

The Budget Office, which has been up and running for over a year now, is intended to strengthen the capacity of Parliament to better hold government to account by providing independent analysis to Parliament. It is not meant to offer advice to or criticism of government – just analysis. [Interjections.] Yes, it must not advise or criticise. It must analyse. Let us hear how intelligent the disagreement will be. You might also just agree with me! [Applause.] The role of the Budget Office is to assist Members of Parliament in making sense of the tangle of numbers and notes that represent the fiscal planning framework of the executive.

Going forward, the Fifth Parliament must determine the final form of the Budget Office and put in place the capacity to support the vision of the Fifth Parliament accordingly.

It was as early as the time of Speaker Ginwala's Parliament – the First Parliament in President Mandela's time and then the Second later – that the institution embarked on the ambitious and unenviable task of addressing the growing need for adequate infrastructure in the buildings and facilities of Parliament. It was called the "space utilisation" project. It is a project that goes beyond the provision of office space, parking, other facilities and meeting venues. Indeed, it is a matter which relates directly to Parliament's ability and capacity to carry out its functions. I am sure, Deputy Speaker, that Members of Parliament will appreciate that this matter requires our ongoing attention.

In support of Parliament's oversight role, our Constitution created Institutions Supporting Democracy, ISDs. In 2009, by resolution of the House, the Office on Institutions Supporting Democracy, OISD, was established to be the link between Parliament and the ISDs. The OISD has since provided invaluable support to the presiding officers, portfolio committees and the ISDs.

Various interactions between Parliament and the ISDs have taken place through platforms like the forums for chairpersons and ISDs, where presiding officers, relevant portfolio committee chairpersons and ISD chairpersons meet to discuss pertinent issues relating to operations, finances and governance matters relating to the ISDs. Importantly, sound relations and vibrant interactions between these stakeholders have been achieved. This is a platform where all parties concerned collaborate and craft future working relationships. We can, however, do more to support the work of the ISDs and Chapter 9 institutions.

Talking about the women's programme, August is upon us and the country will once more be celebrating the contribution of women to our freedom and democracy. From a gender rights perspective, the celebration of 20 years of democracy in South Africa acknowledges 20 years of significant progress in seeking to improve the quality of the lives of women in South Africa.

While there are still a number of substantive challenges that women face daily, such as widespread poverty and high levels of violence against women, it is important to celebrate the gains made in the context of the fact that women's rights were nonexistent on the state's agenda prior to 1994. An important part of Parliament's focus in its 20-year celebrations is to review and assess the gains made in giving effect both to promoting women's rights and to unpacking the challenges that still need to be addressed.

In this regard Parliament will review the progress made regarding legislation and oversight in a number of key areas of women's lives, which include but are not limited to: the impact of poverty on the development of women; health, poverty, education and skills development; and violence against women.

Each of these areas is important in women's lives. Economic empowerment and skills development are critical to building stable finances and improving the overall quality of women's lives which, in turn, contributes to their overall wellbeing.

Education is one of the most significant factors that influence a woman's level of economic participation. Higher levels of education are associated with higher levels of skill and knowledge which, in turn, can lead to women's increasing their net worth. A reduction in the levels of violence against women is a basic human right and is integral to overall health and wellbeing.

The review of progress made in this regard will be used to inform the development of a programme of action for the Fifth Parliament. I just want to take a sip of water. [Interjections.] Mr Singh, cheers! [Laughter.] This programme of action will outline the key priorities for monitoring legislation and oversight to enhance women's lives in South Africa, specifically focusing on the most marginalised women in our society.

With regard to Parliament's actual budget allocation, the current budget is a transitional budget, and allows us the space to move from the Fourth to the Fifth Parliament.

The year-on-year growth of the budget of Parliament is 6% from the 2013-14 financial year to the 2014-15 financial year. This growth should be interpreted as a baseline adjustment for inflation costs, and therefore does not literally mean more funds for Parliament.

Allow me now to turn to the actual budget allocations in the current budget. The allocation for Programme 1: Administration amounts to R442 million and this represents an increase of 8% from the last financial year. This programme provides for, amongst others, the provision of strategic leadership, institutional policy, overall management and corporate services for Parliament's executive management and staff. In particular, this spending covers the establishment of the Fifth Parliament, the development of an integrated budgeting and performance system, and the completion of the third phase of the ICT infrastructure upgrade.

The allocation for Programme 2: Legislation and Oversight totals R361 million, which is a 4% increase compared to last year. This programme provides for procedural and administrative services in order for Parliament to carry out its core functions. The continued implementation of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, and support to committees are given budgetary prominence under this programme.

The allocation for Programme 3: Public and International Participation amounts to R132,6 million, which is a growth of 11% compared to last year. The programme's budget for this financial year is geared to the upgrading of the broadcast infrastructure and enhancing public participation efforts, amongst others.

The budget allocation for Programme 4: Members' Facilities is R224 million, representing a 6% growth from last year. The budget makes provision for the purchasing of the tools of the trade for members, as well as travel facilities to ensure that members experience a working environment that supports their role as representatives of the people.

The allocation for Programme 5: Associated Services, amounts to R349 million, representing a 5% increase. Under this programme, financial support to political parties and constituency offices is covered as per the agreed formula.

In addition to the budget of the five programmes, Parliament has a budget of R481 million, a direct charge to the National Revenue Fund, as provision for Members' remuneration. This equates to 6% growth relative to last year's budget.

Similar to all organs of state, Parliament is subject to the rigorous scrutiny of the Auditor-General's statutory audit reports. The Fourth Parliament did reasonably well in its audit outcomes by receiving unqualified audit findings with a few matters of emphasis. [Applause.]

As the Fifth Parliament, we must continue to set the example and work towards eliminating audit opinions with matters of emphasis. Going forward, the executive authority must work closely with the Accounting Officer of Parliament to ensure that this target is achieved.

The Fifth Parliament has the responsibility to implement the amended Financial Management of Parliament Act, Act 10 of 2009. The Act is an important milestone that asserts the doctrine of the separation of powers and the independence of the legislative sector. The Act provides, inter alia, for financial and accounting systems for Parliament and for norms and standards for provincial legislatures.

Section 4 of the Financial Management of Parliament Act provides for the establishment of an oversight mechanism at Parliament to maintain oversight of the financial management of the institution. In this regard, the Fifth Parliament has to ensure that the oversight mechanism and the accompanying rules, via the Joint Rules Committee, are in place within this financial year.

Regarding the strategic planning process, I wish to emphasise to the House that, aside from the specific responsibilities of the Fourth Parliament that we assume, it is our responsibility to develop our own strategic priorities and expected outcomes for the Fifth Parliament. Indeed, it is only in crafting our own strategic plan, strongly underpinned by our policy imperatives, that we will be able to decide our budget requirements over the medium term. The strategic plan is a performance contract with those we represent, which we must use to measure our performance over the next five years to ensure that in representing our people we have clear objectives and a clear focus.

I do, however, want to caution members that we have a tight timeline, as the Financial Management of Parliament Act requires the Secretary to Parliament to table the strategic plan not later than the end of November this year.

A fully inclusive consultation process is under way and I am appealing to leaders of political parties in this regard. I am looking around the House for the leaders of political parties that I am appealing to. [Interjections.] This is a fully inclusive consultation process. It is a fully inclusive consultation process that is under way, and I am appealing to people to listen to what I am saying. If you are busy interjecting, you won't hear me. [Interjections.] This is to ensure that members participate fully, so that we all enrich the process as much as possible. Bayezwa baba. Makhelwane. Abezwa. We must enrich the process as much as possible.

Upon the completion of the strategic plan for the Fifth Parliament, budget reprioritisation will be done in line with the Financial Management of Parliament Act in order to ensure that funds are allocated according to the objectives of Parliament.

In charting the way forward, I wish to pose a few questions that can stimulate thinking and debate amongst members of the House in developing our strategic plan. Firstly, what will the contribution of the Fifth Parliament be to furthering the areas of focus expressed in the National Development Plan, and the President's state of the nation address, amongst others? As part of this process, Parliament should also embark on a process of measuring its impact and outcomes in relation to legislation, oversight and public participation processes. Where we identify the need for changes to improve service delivery, these will need to be prioritised.

Secondly, beyond our explicit constitutional mandate, what is the role of Parliament in enhancing co-operative governance? This is a grey area that clearly needs a sharper focus in both Houses of Parliament.

Thirdly, what meaningful role should Parliament play in nation-building and social cohesion, in this, the second phase of our democratic project? How do we use the parliamentary space more effectively to address issues of national concern and interest?

Fourthly, what will the impact of the Fifth Parliament be in reducing the democracy deficit regionally, nationally, and internationally? This process will have to reflect whether Parliament is indeed reflecting the will of our people in governance issues at these levels.

We should also reflect on how best we assume a more active role in the formative stages of international agreements and treaties – where have they gone? – and in sustainable development agendas to improve the lives of all the people of the world.

Lastly, we need to examine the importance of institutional flexibility in our oversight processes. We need to recognise that oversight of the executive, departments, and events requires a diverse toolkit, and an array of different types of debates in the committees, as well as in the Chamber. This must also include a rethink of the way in which we use our constituency offices. It is no longer enough to assure our people that matters are in hand and are being addressed. It is nice to hear that, but it is not enough.

These are but a few of the questions that we need to pose and answer as we build upon the foundations that have been laid by our predecessors.

In conclusion, hon members ... [Interjections. ] [Applause.] It is only the conclusion of this section! I'm not done yet! [Laughter]

It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the tremendous role that the late Secretary to Parliament, Michael Coetzee, played in the evolution of our Parliament. [Applause.] We continue to hold Michael's family in our prayers.

I also wish to pay our respects to the late hon Nosipho Ntwanambi and extend our deepest condolences to her family. She was laid to rest this past weekend. She was a leading figure in our women's movement and her contribution to our democracy will live on. Let all of us who remain behind continue carrying her torch in the fight for gender equality.

Hon members, the way in which we position ourselves during this term is crucial to ensuring that we strengthen the faith of our people in their future, and the faith of every South African in South Africa. There is much more to be done towards realising the fundamental principles and ideals of the Freedom Charter. Now is the time for the next stage of our historic journey, to progress towards accelerated inclusive growth, decent jobs, the scaling up of quality education, the provision of quality health care services, and sustainable development, amongst others.

Let us therefore rise to the challenge of being an authentically robust and engaging Parliament, truly in touch with our people and at peace with them. I take this opportunity to invite all members of this august House to engage with the challenges and the opportunities that are presented to us.

I thank the staff of Parliament for their passion and dedication in supporting Members of Parliament in their carrying out their responsibilities efficiently and effectively.

On his 80th birthday Madiba asked to be granted one wish, which was:

... that all South Africans should rededicate ourselves to turning this into the land of our dreams: a place that is free of hatred and discrimination; a place from which hunger and homelessness have been banished; a safe place for our children to grow into our future leaders.

I also wish to urge that we speak out against all violations of human rights, such as the sad and unfortunate killing of innocent people in Gaza, Palestine. Having achieved our own freedom, we should not fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others are facing. Nelson Mandela reminded us that "... our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians ..." Let us all heed this call.

I commend Budget Vote 2 to this House for its support. I thank you.

Ms D E DLAKUDE

The SPEAKER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 32

Ms D E DLAKUDE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, and our guests in the gallery, I greet you all. I begin my address on the parliamentary Budget Vote with this profound and inspiring excerpt from the father of our nation, Nelson Mandela, who stated these poignant words upon winning the historic elections of 1994:

People have voted for the party of their choice and we respect that. This is democracy.

I hold out a hand of friendship to the leaders of all parties and their members, and ask all of them to join us in working together to tackle the problems we face as a nation. An ANC government will serve all the people of South Africa, not just ANC members.

The various political parties that have graced this platform in the name of freedom and democracy have been able to do so because of the commitment of the ANC to ensuring that we empower all the people of South Africa with the rights and privileges to be had through the political parties of their choice. Our democracy continues to thrive and mature as a result of our commitment to upholding the precepts of our multiparty democracy on this institutional platform.

This year we have begun the Fifth Parliament at the apex of our achievements, and as we celebrate an historic milestone in the life of our democratic Parliament. At the advent of democracy in 1994 a fundamental and radical shift took place in our sociopolitical landscape, allowing us to begin reversing the effects of over 200 years of colonialism and oppression in South Africa.

Twenty years ago, through our first symbolic act of agreement as a nation, we moved with one accord in collectively casting our votes for freedom. In so doing we successfully began to move our nation towards healing, reconciliation and cohesion. Even the global community collectively concurred that we were indeed a unique nation in the history of mankind.

We are now in a transition period, which requires us to deepen national consensus and democratic governance through the vision of the National Development Plan, our manifesto priorities and various institutional programmes. We must therefore stand together to accomplish the compelling vision of the NDP which has begun to take shape and is fast gaining momentum through the legislative, programmatic and sociopolitical gains that we are continuously attaining.

We recognise that the key role of Parliament is to consider and pass legislation, oversee government action, ensure public involvement, and participate in international relations.

Now more than ever this institution of Parliament is hard pressed to formulate progressive laws that will create conditions of greater tolerance amongst our people. Parliament is therefore obligated to work with resolute commitment to ensure that all the instruments that are at our disposal on this institutional platform are effectively utilised for the progressive transformation of our society.

Mahatma Gandhi once said that there are seven things that will destroy us and most of them have to do with social and political conditions. These things are as follows:

Wealth without work

Pleasure without conscience

Knowledge without character

Commerce without morality

Science without humanity

Worship without sacrifice

Politics without principle

In the light of Gandhi's wisdom, let us therefore not allow retrogressive parliamentary relations to undermine the stability and norms that govern acceptable parliamentary decorum. Extremist and offensive behaviour will certainly activate the use of the rules that govern the business of Parliament. Let us therefore be reminded that these rules have been put in place to govern this institution and serve the function of protecting the dignity of everyone seated in this House. [Applause.]

This institution is a catalyst to ignite our moral conscience and character in regard to serving our people. Let us remain centred on the moral compass in order to continuously deliver progressive laws, without reverting to political mudslinging and operating in an anarchist manner.

Let us display tolerance and cohesion in a manner that will allow our nation to systematically begin to emulate the tolerance and cohesion expressed on this platform. Political intolerance displayed on this platform will only breed political intolerance beyond the corridors and confines of this institution, which absolutely does not serve the interest of building a free and democratic society. If we cannot muster the courage to adhere to the precepts of dignity, tolerance and cohesion in our debates, and if we as leaders fail to do the same on this platform, we certainly cannot expect our nation to function more cohesively.

The ANC continues to be a movement sustained and underpinned by democratic practices and values. It is a movement that values leadership and playing a decisive role in leading our society to new levels of development and achievement.

We are a revolutionary democratic movement that pursues fundamental change in order to create a better life for all our people. We continuously recognise the fundamental right of all South Africans to have a government of their own choice. We are continually driven and committed to using the country's resources to improve the living conditions of our people, especially the poor. These principles which define internal democracy within the ANC as a movement, also define our commitment to adhering to democratic principles within the institution of Parliament.

As a movement driven by these practices, we maintain a resolute commitment to ensuring that multiparty democracy is achieved and thrives. Our negotiated transition essentially means that we as the ANC have agreed to terms, conditions and a preamble which form the foundation of our Constitution.

We respect the rights of members of any political party to raise issues and challenge the efficacy of ideas through robust debate. The various systems and platforms that are in place at the national Parliament are sufficient and effective enough to allow issues of disagreement to be resolved within the confines of Parliament.

The judiciary was never meant to take over the responsibility of Parliament to play its role in resolving issues. Parliament is the epicentre of democracy and debate. We cannot reduce the functionality and relevance of this institution by continuously referring matters to the judiciary which should reside and be dealt with on this platform of engagement. [Applause.]

The judiciary indeed has an imperative role to play as a critical component in the separation of powers, and administering justice will always remain a core mandate of the judiciary. However, caution must be advised in our approach to resolving issues that are parliamentary in nature. The end result of constantly referring parliamentary issues to the judiciary can only have retrogressive effects on the state of our parliamentary democracy. The judiciary should only become an option for intervention when we are certain that all avenues have been exhausted and we genuinely cannot reach consensus on a matter. This approach will allow Parliament to fulfil its mandate as an institution that allows matters to be democratically resolved through negotiation and compromise.

I also want to state that the Chief Whips' Forum is a strategic forum for raising issues of contention. If used effectively, this platform can also become an effective instrument for reaching consensus on issues of disagreement.

In addition to the above, I want to make the pronouncement that the ANC respects the role of all Chapter 9 institutions. These institutions were formulated as part of our negotiated transition, and undoubtedly have the support of the ANC. We cannot pick and choose which ones we want to use. [Applause.] Also, the appropriate use of Chapter 9 institutions is imperative and germane to the growth and development of our democracy.

We must ensure that participatory democracy is enhanced through the various channels of participation that are available at the national Parliament, which include oversight visits, public hearings, petitions and programmes such as Taking Parliament to the People, the Women's Parliament, the Youth Parliament and the People's Assembly.

We must also ensure that constituency offices are revived to their full effectiveness in order to guarantee a connectedness with our people for the rapid escalation of issues to the relevant channels in order for them to be resolved.

In addition, private member's Bills also present members with a grand opportunity to review our legislative landscape and come up with legislative solutions that are responsive to community needs.

I urge our presiding officers to become more proactive in their involvement in strengthening participatory democracy and reviving every dormant programme at National Parliament to ensure that we enter the fifth parliamentary term with the zeal to deliver and push the institution to another level of productivity.

The Freedom Charter is still a relevant document today. It gave clear expression to our founding principles when it stated, "The people shall govern!" Indeed, the ideals contained in this historic document are still relevant today, because the Freedom Charter is the people's contract for the advancement of the interests of the people.

In our fight for radical economic transformation, it is imperative to ensure that members are adequately supported with all the necessary tools to be effective in the work they have been tasked to accomplish. We have to prioritise the training of members so as to allow them to be effective during the fifth parliamentary term.

Moreover, it simply cannot be business as usual. Our people cannot wait anymore. Our priorities must therefore be fulfilled and achieved.

The fifth parliamentary term must also reignite our resolve to continue to function as an activist Parliament and respond to the mandate given to us by the people of South Africa. An activist Parliament functions and derives its mandate from the people. It finds its definition through the expression and articulation of people's needs. That is what this Parliament should strive to do.

The apartheid regime enforced its legitimacy and existence by utilising legislation passed in this House and the rule of law to assert its power. Through legislation the apartheid regime imposed its vengeful tyranny by enforcing its laws of restriction, division and deprivation.

Some of the instruments that were utilised in the apartheid onslaught of legislative tyranny included the Population Registration Act of 1950, the Group Areas Act of 1950, the Bantu Education Act of 1953, the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act of 1949, the Immorality Amendment Act of 1950, the Separate Representation of Voters Act of 1951 and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act of 1953, which all enabled an oppressive regime to enforce its tyranny while committing systematic genocide against those who opposed its reign of terror.

Our role as Parliament is to make sure that we reverse the impact of apartheid through every debate, through the battle of ideas, and most importantly through the pieces of legislation that we pass.

In his address during the joint sitting of Parliament to mark 10 years of democracy in South Africa in May 2004, Tata Nelson Mandela stated the following:

Parliament is the voice of the people and you, the presiding officers, bear a heavy responsibility in ensuring that that voice is clearly heard in national affairs and that its role be protected and defended.

He went on to say that the nation had put its trust in Members of Parliament, concluding that ours is "the almost sacred duty to ensure government by the people under the Constitution." The configuration of this Parliament must therefore be remembered for the historical significance it symbolises. In honour of the father of our nation, we are reminded of the very important role that we are entrusted with.

In conclusion, I wish to speak about our role as a country that is part of the global community. As citizens of the global community we are obligated to make pronouncements when the freedoms of the peoples of the world are threatened by tyranny and oppression. We must remember that we too were once prisoners in the land of our birth. We were exiled and treated as second-class citizens in this land of our birth. We faced untold atrocities in order to attain democracy. We are therefore morally obliged to speak out against injustice and tyranny and to defend the ideals of freedom and justice in the world.

It is in the light of this that we as the ANC in the national Parliament wish to express that we are outraged in the extreme by the wanton and unjustifiable bombardment and killings of innocent civilians, including women and children, in the Palestinian territory of Gaza by Israeli military forces. [Applause.] Our strong condemnation of Israel's violent aggression, however, does not in any way mean approval of the continuing firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas, which has also put the lives of innocent civilians at risk. We echo the call by the South African government, our government, for both parties to end all forms of aggression towards each another. I thank you.

Mr J H STEENHUISEN

Ms D E DLAKUDE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 33

Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, Alexander Herzen, a political thinker, once said:

Would it be possible to stand still on one spot more majestically – while simulating a triumphant march forward – than it is done by the two English Houses of Parliament?

I think we need to disprove this question. It is this that probably led the famous C S Lewis to say:

Some politicians hold that the only way to make a revolutionary safe is to give him a seat in Parliament.

[Laughter.] Perhaps this is some sage advice for my friends on the left.

Let us be very clear about what the responsibility is that we have as Parliament. The role can essentially be defined by four key aspects: firstly, selecting officials for the legislature; secondly, making law; thirdly, providing, sustaining and overseeing the executive; and, fourthly, linking citizens and the legislature. The challenge that we as the fifth democratic Parliament have is this: What can we as members of this House do to expand the role of Parliament in fulfilling this mandate?

It is a responsibility that rests on both the governing party and the opposition, for each seat occupied in this House, regardless of party affiliation, is a direct representation of the marks made on ballot papers across the length and breadth of South Africa. On election day no ballot paper was worth more or less than any other; they carried equal weight, just as we, as the governing party and the opposition, share the equal weight of protecting and advancing the role of this Fifth Parliament. [Interjections.]

There is no doubt that the role of Parliament has been weakened over the past 15 years, as a rampant executive seeks to stamp its authority and dominance on the policy and lawmaking process. As members of this House, we cannot and must not allow the juniorisation of the role of this Parliament as the embodiment of the democratic will of millions of ordinary citizens who have sent us to this House to represent their hopes, dreams and aspirations for South Africa. So the question we have to ask ourselves is whether this Parliament is an arena of ideas or it is merely becoming an echo chamber of the executive.

One of the primary roles of this House is to ensure that legislation, initiated in most instances by the executive, is fully debated in an open forum; that all the issues that this legislation may raise are properly addressed; that the needs and wishes of our citizens are accommodated; and that appropriate changes are made. However, we are not limited to this. Apart from money Bills, the Constitution provides in section 55 that the National Assembly can "initiate or prepare legislation".

So, how exactly have we been faring in this regard? In 2013, just under 28 hours was spent in debating legislation, and 53 Bills were passed by the National Assembly – only 20 were ever actually properly debated in this Chamber. We also spent an inordinate amount of time in dealing with government business as opposed to dealing with members' business. As members of this House, we should be using the time of the House to allow members an opportunity to raise matters of importance, as it is Members of Parliament who are the true representatives of the people out there.

I am very glad that the hon Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party mentioned private member's Bills, because these are going to be very important. However, they are only going to work if we as a House accept that no party has a monopoly on good ideas and that these Bills must be assessed not in regard to the party whence they come, but what they can do to advance South Africa. [Interjections.]

We now turn to questions. The Constitution could not be more specific in its mandate of responsibility when it comes to the oversight of our executive branch. Section 92(2) states that:

Members of the Cabinet ... –

that is you guys over there –

... are accountable collectively and individually to Parliament ... –

that is us –

... for the exercise of their powers and the performance of their functions.

One of Parliament's most important oversight mechanisms is oral and written questions. We simply have to pay more attention to making this important oversight mechanism work. In 2013 a total of 294 oral questions were asked in the National Assembly, but only 50 of these were actually answered in the House. Colleagues and hon members, 17% is not good enough. When oral question time in the House was overhauled in 2000, we were assured at the time of the overhaul that the new rotation system would ensure full executive presence on each occasion. It is now very clear, if one looks at the Fourth Parliament, that this system is not working.

In 2013, seven Ministers did not attend a single oral question session in the House. [Interjections.] Five Ministers attended only a single oral question session. The written question system is only marginally better. With the year ending in 2013, some 209 questions simply remained unanswered by Ministers. It is clear that we require the will of this Parliament and its presiding officers, as well as that of the Leader of Government Business, to ensure that this situation does not reoccur in the Fifth Parliament.

I must add that 2014 has not got off to a very good start either. Only the Deputy President and Ministers from the Economic Sectors and Employment cluster have actually answered oral questions in 2014, and we are now in July. Ministers in the International Relations, Peace and Security cluster have not answered oral questions in this House for over a year. [Interjections.] We need to ensure that with regard to oral questions, Ministers are actually present in the House. It would be really interesting to know how many Ministers are in the House today for this very important debate.

I now turn to the committees, because they are the engine room of Parliament, and they need to be capacitated to make sure that the work that needs to be done is being done. Minutes take far too long to be approved. Members of Parliament sit, sometimes for hours, doing huge batches of minutes. How is this effective oversight of what was discussed?

Oversight reports from our oversight visits get put onto Order Papers, yet we never debate them. Whatever happens to these reports? Who does the follow up? Who goes back to those communities to report back on the issues that they raised with our oversight members when they were there?

I am very glad today that the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party mentioned Chapter 9 institutions, and we say amen to that, we agree with you that they are very important. Yet, if they are so important, why do we as Parliament hardly ever debate their annual reports or the reports that they produce? For instance, when last did we have a debate in this House on the audit outcomes of local government by the Auditor-General, so that we can actually start dealing with some of the problems and crises being faced by local government?

We also need to make Parliament relevant to South Africans. One of the best ways to link Parliament, the citizens and the work that we do in this House is by ensuring that it is on the cutting edge of debate on the issues of the day in our country. We should be discussing the issues that matter most to South Africans and showing them that this vibrant Chamber, where there is a clash of ideas from all parties around the issues of our time, is the best way to find resolution to the questions of our time.

While they have their place, these set piece debates that we have on ceremonial matters on high days and holidays are frankly often boring, tedious and scripted, and they do nothing to inspire confidence amongst the people of South Africa. They certainly don't do anything to place Parliament as the locus of change and hope for the better South Africa that we strive for and that the people who placed us here seek.

We must make more time to debate the motions moved by members of this House. Often these are driven directly from communities and constituencies, where real people have raised real issues with their elected representatives. We must actively seek to demonstrate the causal link between electors and the elected, and Parliament's debating the issues that matter most to South Africans will ensure that their voices find resonance in this Chamber.

To have these debates in a free, flowing and unscripted manner will also require attention. We must ensure that the arena in which ideas must be shared is one that is conducive to debate. Recent rulings have the very real potential to stifle debate and the ability of members who are elected here to adequately articulate their positions, viewpoints and ideas for a way forward.

Members should only be ejected from this House for the most egregious breaches of the rules of debate. To illustrate this point, I wish to share with you an extract from the Hansard of Wednesday, 12 April 1972, where the opposition party Member of Parliament Radclyffe Cadman savaged the then National Party Minister of Defence. Speaking of the Minister, he said:

Members such as the Minister of Defence, making speeches such as they did, feasted on the emotions of the people in as repulsive a way as do maggots on a corpse. And it was perhaps appropriate that the worst offender in that regard should have been the hon. Minister of Defence, because he has not only the spinelessness but the shape and the colour of those repulsive creatures as well.

This is heavy stuff, but when compared to some of the words, like "farce", "horrible" and "sham", that have been declared unparliamentary in debates, it does leave one wondering if perhaps we have been too restrictive at times. It also makes the statements for which certain members on my left were ejected from the House, seem completely mild in comparison.

I now turn to the parliamentary budget and strategic plan. It was with a sense of relief that we were informed that the strategic review of the plan and budget for Parliament is being done. In our going through the documentation, it is very clear that the form of the current budget and strategic objectives does not follow the function we wish our Parliament to perform. Hopefully, this review will bring the strategic objectives back into alignment with what we want our Parliament to look like and what we want it to do.

The system of how we measure our performance also needs to be taken into account. The current system of measuring how well Parliament is performing by simply counting the number of Bills we pass in a year is silly. Instead, we should be looking at how well we pass those Bills, and perhaps we could avoid some litigation if we paid attention here. We should be measuring and reporting on how long the committee deliberated on the Bill; how many people spoke in committee on the Bill; and how many public submissions were received, whether these were considered and whether those who made submissions received feedback. As Members of Parliament we must not be brainwashed into believing that Parliament is working well simply because it passes government legislation quickly.

It is also most disconcerting to note the huge amount in the current budget that has been budgeted for the office of the so-called spokesperson of Parliament. Let us be very clear that there is only one spokesperson of the National Assembly and that is you, Madam Speaker, and to quote the National Assembly Guide to Procedure, you are the "representative and spokesperson for the Assembly and (with the Chairperson of the Council) for Parliament in the outside world". The budget for this single office, bearing in mind that it is additional to the communications budget of Parliament, is almost as much as the budget for the entire National Assembly Table. This needs to be looked at. [Interjections.]

The Parliamentary Oversight Authority needs a dramatic change in function and needs to increase the number of times that it meets. It is currently the only mechanism where we can hold Parliament to account for the money being spent and projects being undertaken. There is no reason for this meeting to be closed to any Member of Parliament. Any member should be allowed to attend this meeting to observe and interact with how Parliament operates. It should operate along the same lines as any other portfolio committee in this House. We as Parliament cannot exercise oversight over government departments but then not want to subject ourselves to similar oversight.

We have heard a lot of noble objectives being spoken about from this podium today, and we find common cause with a large majority. We want Parliament to work – this is our Parliament and we are all members. We need to make sure that it works, but I think we must also be mindful of what John F Kennedy said:

As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them.

Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms H O MAXON

Mr J H STEENHUISEN

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 34

Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Speaker, the EFF does not agree with the Budget Vote for Parliament for the following reasons. [Interjections.] You will listen!

We initially expressed in this House the view that Parliament is impartial and has systems that present equal opportunities to all political parties. However, this view has changed, because we are now beginning to observe narrow partisan practices, policies and conduct which seek to reproduce the power relations configured after the first democratic elections, with most of these based on legislation that has been in place since before 1994.

The very fact that the administration which this Parliament oversees is based more than 2 000 km away in Pretoria is in itself an impediment to proper oversight. The fact that Ministers and seasonal staff members travel to and from Pretoria and Cape Town is a waste of resources which could be utilised for other purposes, especially for the development of our people on the ground. [Interjections.] Parliament in Cape Town and the administration in Pretoria are a logistical nightmare, and are a result of the compromise reached between white people when they wanted to formalise their dominance of Africa – the sunset clause is still alive.

Our view is that this Parliament should be relocated to Pretoria so that the government and this Parliament spend fewer resources on oversight work and legislation. If the ANC does not want to do that, the EFF will do it when it takes over the government. [Interjections.]

Generally the manner in which Parliament allocates resources and support to political parties seeks to reproduce the dominance of a political party that won the elections in a manner which prevents other political parties from winning successive elections.

IsiZulu:

Yingakho nithi niyobusa kuze kubuye uJesu.

English:

We have not disputed the outcome of the elections, but the reality that the ruling party is allocated more resources and money by this and other Parliaments, almost guarantees its better access to voters, and better services in order to operate as a political organisation.

Here in Parliament the structures ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Allow the member to speak.

Ms H O MAXON: ... and institutions that are supposed to oversee the finances and processes of Parliament are dominated by the ruling party, and are almost always run in a partisan way. This undermines the principle of the separation of powers because there is really no oversight of the executive by Parliament.

The ruling party uses its parliamentary majority as a rubber stamp in all decisions of the executive. This means that even in instances where the executive is in the wrong or refuses to account to Parliament, the ruling party uses its parliamentary majority to force through decisions.

The Parliamentary Oversight Authority and presiding officers here in Parliament are given too much power, to the extent that when other political parties disagree on a parliamentary oversight matter, the Speaker is given the sole right to take decisions on her own. [Interjections.]

Maybe what we should consider – this is the EFF's proposal, so take it seriously – as a way of democratising this space and making it more accountable, is to put a system in place where retired judges from the Constitutional Court and other high courts are appointed as presiding officers of this House. They would also be responsible for the management and administration of Parliament. [Applause.]

Presiding officers who represent certain political parties are biased in favour of the political parties that have deployed them to this Parliament. Presiding officers who represent certain political parties will obviously develop funding policies that will favour their political parties most. Presiding officers who represent certain political parties will obviously pass rules that favour and protect the political parties that they belong to.

This Parliament is governed by legislation that was passed by the apartheid regime. Ihlazo! [What a shame!] One of those Acts is the Parliamentary and Provincial Medical Aid Scheme Act of 1975 – 30 years ago! You should be ashamed of yourselves! Under this Act Members of Parliament and all legislatures are compelled to join a specific medical aid scheme, with a set value and amount which members have not decided upon. The problems with Parmed, which is compulsory, are the following.

Firstly, some new Members of Parliament have lifetime medical aid schemes, which cover them beyond their five-year parliamentary contracts, at a monthly tariff far lower than Parmed.

Secondly, some new Members of Parliament have existing medical aid subscriptions, directly or indirectly – through their spouses – and dragging them into Parmed does not add any value, despite the reality that money is deducted from their monthly salaries.

Thirdly, compulsory membership of Parmed is attached only to a five-year term and this has an impact on members who might not return to Parliament after the five years, and who could have chosen a scheme which would have lasted them longer than five years. If the ANC does not want to take care of the people, the EFF will do that. [Interjections.]

Fourthly, post membership subscription costs are prohibitive and unaffordable to the unemployed and to young, short-serving members, with no guaranteed income or retirement benefits.

Finally, some members are covered by the schemes of their spouses and partners, and therefore we do not require this added expense.

We recommend that Members of Parliament be allowed to make their own informed choices and decisions with regard to medical aid. We as the EFF recommend that legislation governing Parmed be amended so as to be in line with the Constitution – freedom of choice! However, it looks as if the ruling party is again abusing its power and will refuse to amend the Act that compels members to join a medical aid scheme, thereby denying them the fundamental right of choice. If the ruling party does not want to amend this Act, we as the EFF will go to court to force them to amend it. [Interjections.]

Parliament's oversight structures and bodies should be neutral and give all political parties opportunities to put their views. What is happening now is that political parties that are not in the majority are treated like unwanted stepchildren of this House. That is what you are busy doing. [Interjections.] However, we are here because voters sent us here and not because we are receiving favours from the ruling party. It is our right to be here and, as that is the case, that should be respected by the laws and support we gain from Parliament.

The current review of the National Assembly Rules should grant an opportunity to democratise this Parliament, and give it the power to hold the executive accountable.

The Parliamentary Oversight Authority should also be democratised and be made an open meeting for members of the public to participate in.

All the work that Parliament outsources to private companies should never have any relation to politicians.

We welcome the establishment of the Parliamentary Budget Office, but the person heading it is an ANC deployee who sits on the ANC's Economic Transformation Committee. We will scrutinise the budgets of the ANC.

If the issues raised by the EFF are not attended to, the EFF will not agree with Parliament's Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N SINGH

Ms H O MAXON

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 35

Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Speaker, hon Deputy President and colleagues, let me at the outset say that the IFP will support Vote 2 – Parliament. [Applause.]

However, having said that, hon Deputy Speaker and Madam Speaker, I would like to raise an issue that disturbed me quite a bit yesterday, because it affected the real government in my life, who are my wife and family.

My wife asked me a question yesterday morning. She was very distraught when she came up to me, and she said, "What are you all doing in Parliament?" Now I have been around for over 20 years, Madam Speaker. So I said, "Why do you say that?" She said, "Look at the horrific incident that happened with these children, specially the one child who was wrapped in the seat belt." She asked this because we have grandchildren – I think many of you in this House also have grandchildren. Think about it. If it was your grandchild, how would you feel?

I am mentioning this, Madam Speaker, because I believe that we as Parliament have a responsibility to protect our citizens out there. It is not only the responsibility of the executive, hon Deputy President. What are we as Parliament doing about these things? You saw the lady on television this morning, saying that the police had failed her, and that they had had to go and catch the perpetrator. Where does that place us as hon Members of Parliament? I leave that question with you, Madam Speaker and Members of Parliament. [Applause.]

Hon Deputy Speaker, we want to welcome the resumption, as per the motion proposed by the hon Chief Whip earlier on, of proceedings on the Medical Innovation Bill, which is a private member's Bill tabled by the hon Dr Ambrosini. We are glad that we'll be able to openly debate this Bill and come up with solutions that will offer relief to thousands of people in South Africa.

In the very limited time that I have, hon Deputy Speaker, let me say that it would be remiss of us as the IFP not to thank the staff, the Table Staff, late Mr Coetzee and others for the support that they have offered us as Members of Parliament.

Hon Deputy Speaker, the Speaker spoke about a People's Parliament, and we welcome the participative governance model. However, we think it should come sooner rather than later. You know, it is not uncommon for members to stand here and refer to members in the gallery and acknowledge them. Yet nobody is sitting in the gallery! Today, we have members in the gallery, which is good, and we need to ensure that the public get more involved in what happens in the affairs of Parliament.

Having said that, hon Deputy Speaker, it baffles me when I think about the unprecedented security measures during the state of the nation address. At that time members of this hon House were actually humiliated when their vehicles were searched to the extent that they were searched. Yet the very next day the very same people who had been in this House were sitting in the House without security. I cannot understand why on one day out of 365 we have to have such tight security, and after that we are unprotected. This is something that we as Parliament have to look at.

Deputy Speaker, in regard to parliamentary television, we welcome the fact that the state of the nation address is at night, and we as parliamentarians can attend it. However, public viewers have to see it on a pay channel. Otherwise, it can be seen from 8:00 to 8:30 in the morning on View from the House. Now, who is watching this slot on television from 8:00 to 8:30 in the morning? It is only those people who are still lying in bed. What about the majority? So, I think we need to negotiate with the public broadcaster to broadcast View from the House at a time when the majority of South Africans will be able to watch what is happening in Parliament. [Applause.]

As far as support for members is concerned, we need, Madam Speaker, to have support for members of opposition parties, especially the smaller parties. We do not have research facilities and capabilities like the bigger parties, and we hope that this is something that you will look at. We will again support this Bill. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N M KHUBISA

Mr N SINGH

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 35

Mr N M KHUBISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members and Speaker, in terms of the provisions of the Constitution, Parliament and provincial legislatures must maintain oversight over all organs of state, including those at provincial and local government levels.

Section 42(3) of the Constitution says that:

The National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution.

Again, section 55(2) of the Constitution says that:

The National Assembly must provide for mechanisms –

(a) to ensure that all executive organs of state in the national sphere of government are accountable to it; and

(b) to maintain oversight of –

(i) the exercise of national executive authority, including the implementation of legislation; and

(ii) any organ of state.

I must say, hon Deputy Speaker, the NFP is going to monitor whether accountability by the executive and organs of state is adhered to.

Having said that, we were baffled by the fact that there are agencies that report to departments which did not report at all, and some flimsy excuses were given with regard to that. We feel that in order for us to pass the Budget, all the agencies of state must report to Parliament. The NFP will also monitor the implementation of the Budget by all Votes in line with all Bills.

Parliament therefore has the task of ensuring that members are trained, and it should not be a once-off process, but an ongoing process.

Of course, the greater chunk of the budget needs to be focused on empowering members to engage in issues, to interrogate legislation, and to equip themselves to legislate because they are the legislators, and on assisting them to sponsor Bills because that is their task.

In Western democracies you will find that a member is empowered to sponsor many quality Bills. For instance, I had an opportunity, with others, of visiting some state legislatures in the US. One member of the legislature there could sponsor as many as 100 Bills. It is the duty of Parliament here to ensure that all members are given that opportunity, because the people have voted for us to do that. Therefore, Parliament must create the space so that we are able to do that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, can I ask the hon member if he'll take a question?

Mr N M KHUBISA: No, no! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I have not yet recognised you, please.

Mr N M KHUBISA: I am busy with an important matter here, and I don't think I will have time ... [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I just wanted to know if he knew what he was talking about.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, sit down!

Mr N M KHUBISA: No, no, no! You don't know what you are talking about. Sit down! [Laughter.] The NFP feels that more should be done to increase management, administrative and coordination capacities in Parliament.

The recent clash of committees is a case in point. Committees must not clash. We must be given time to debate. Thank you, hon Chairperson. [Time expired.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Mr N M KHUBISA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 35

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chair, hon Deputy President and hon members, Parliament derives its power directly from the people. We are therefore here to implement the will of the people.

Once elected, our people expect us to rise above ideological cleavages and narrow partisan interests to build a South Africa for all, both Black and White. In this regard, we are concerned that the proportional speaking formula in Parliament does not provide us, the so-called smaller opposition parties or "other parties" as we prefer to call ourselves, with enough opportunity to clearly outline and articulate the will of the people we represent.

Speaking time is essential for pluralist and representative debates. It is therefore important for Parliament to look into ways in which speaking times allow all parties to add maximum value to what are often complex parliamentary debates.

Applying the crude principle of proportionality to speaking times does not bode well for both the reputation and the image of this august institution. For instance, in the past there have been many instances where a member's speaking time would expire before they had had the opportunity to put their points across, thus leaving the public questioning whether or not the quality of their contribution had been up to standard.

We are aware that political parties have since the beginning of this term worked together to improve the situation, but we feel that there is still room for improvement.

Let me, for example, talk about something that happened during the debate on the Budget Vote on Finance, where the hon Ross was saying other parties did not actually communicate their economic philosophy. But, when you have three minutes, you don't have time to talk about economic philosophy. You leave the broad macro issues to parties that have time, and focus more on specifics, so that you are able to propose alternative routes.

But what was also fascinating to me was listening to the part of the debate where the DA wagged a finger at the ANC and said, "You are not implementing the National Development Plan the right way." And the ANC responded by saying, "But is our plan! What can you tell us? You know nothing about it." And you obviously then have the EFF coming in on the other side and saying, "You are going the wrong way. The NDP is not the right way," and so on.

Madam Speaker, in the last term there were a few instances where people complained about the lack of proper consultation on the Bills before the House. This led to instances where Bills had to be withdrawn to allow for further consultation. There were also a number of times in the past when laws passed by this House were declared unconstitutional by the Constitutional Court. We have to work hard to improve the quality of the laws we pass and together ensure that we make the public central to the lawmaking process of this House. Put differently, the people must govern.

Madam Speaker, we hope that the support systems which have been put in place, such as the Budget Office, will help to shore up the quality and the work of Members of Parliament in the committees. This will go a long way towards making MPs and Parliament effective in their oversight role and the need to hold government accountable for its programmes.

IsiXhosa:

Ukubuyela kulo mcimbi wemibuzo ...

English:

If you look at it, for example, we still have a challenge.

IsiXhosa:

Yinyaniso esingenakho ukuyiphikisa umba weempendulo ...

English:

... sometimes even in instances where questions ...

IsiXhosa:

... ziye zaphendulwa ...

English:

... by the executive, but I think the responsibility is dual.

IsiXhosa:

Ukuba nathi siza kubuza imibuzo efe amanqe, siza kufumana iimpendulo ezife amanqe.

English:

Now, we need to improve the quality on both sides so that ...

IsiXhosa:

... sikwazi ukuba siyisebenzise kakuhle.

English:

Thank you very much.[Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER

Mr N L S KWANKWA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 35

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, the aim of the budget of Parliament is to provide Parliament with the necessary means to fulfil its constitutional obligations and functions.

The mandate of Parliament is based on the provisions of Chapter 4 of the Constitution, which clearly states what is expected of Parliament. In terms of section 42(3):

The National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution.

However, what we see and what we have in Parliament is not "to ensure government by the people"; what we have is government by Luthuli House! [Laughter.] That's what we have in practice. We don't have "government by the people". We have government by Luthuli House.

Parliament, the Constitution and constitutional democracy are way too important to be entrusted to Luthuli House. We cannot afford to do that. If we look at what Parliament is supposed to do in terms of the Constitution and what is being done by way of Luthuli House, then we should be really worried.

Now, Chairperson, in her speech this afternoon the Speaker said the following. She said that in the Fifth Parliament we should hold government accountable, and she also said we should use financial resources with the utmost care. I think that we all agree with that.

However, I think a golden opportunity was lost this afternoon if we want to set the stage and convince South Africa out there that we are really serious when we say the Fifth Parliament will not be about business as usual. What should have happened this afternoon? I'm of the view that this afternoon the hon Speaker should have announced in this House that she intends to immediately establish an ad hoc committee to look into the whole Nkandla affair and the report of the Public Protector.

In terms of this Constitution, we are supposed to hold the executive to account. That goes from the President down through everybody.

Now the Fourth Parliament failed in the same respect. It was in 2009 that the whistle was blown with regard to Nkandla. In those days it was about a project of R26 million that then evolved into a project of R65 million. That happened, the whistle was blown in 2009, and what did Parliament do? Parliament did nothing – no investigation, no inquiry, nothing!

The Public Protector then worked on this and after two years, on 19 March this year, she made her report public. That's more than four months ago. This time it was not about R65 million, but about R246 million in taxpayer's money which was spent on the residence of the President. This is his private residence.

In the Fourth Parliament there was an attempt to look into this and the previous Speaker appointed an ad hoc committee. This was squashed. By whom? Not by the people! It was squashed by Luthuli House, and we know that. One of your members on the committee clearly indicated that. He said, "Of course, I get my instructions from Luthuli House."

Now we are in the Fifth Parliament. It is four months since this report was made public. If we want South Africa and the public at large to take the Fifth Parliament seriously, we should establish such an ad hoc committee as soon as possible. I unfortunately have to say this afternoon that a golden opportunity has been lost. That is what should have been on the table today to indicate that we are taking this seriously. If we do not do that, how do we expect anyone out there ever again to take Parliament seriously? Why should anyone take us seriously when we use huge, wonderful words and phrases, such as "accountability" and "setting the example", but this does not apply to Parliament? A chance was lost today. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]

Mr S LUZIPO

Dr C P MULDER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 36

Mr S LUZIPO: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa and the people's movement, the ANC, the Speaker of the National Assembly, the Deputy Speaker, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, and hon members, let me start by declaring that I am from uMgungundlovu in Pietermaritzburg.

At one point the old man, Harry Gwala, made a comment. He said that it was necessary to dream, but the thing that you had to be careful about was the time at which you were dreaming. [Laughter.] So it might be important for hon members to check the time at which they are dreaming, so that we are not told about dreams that people will take over the government.

Then, with great respect, I wish to say that I never knew, hon Maxon, that you wanted to change your party abbreviation to MFF, the Medical Aid Freedom Fighters. [Laughter.] However, I respect the fact that you have decided to change on the way.

Hon Chairperson, it was almost 102 years ago, in 1912, that the people of South Africa decided to converge in Bloemfontein to launch the true parliament of the people, the South African Native National Congress. This was after they had realised that the unity of the people of their country was the best catalyst for the attainment of their freedom. Most fundamental was the unity of the African people, regardless of their tribal or ethnic background, and none of us will ever forget the profound call that was made at that time that "Mzulu, Mxhosa, Msuthu hlanganani".

From the time of its formation the ANC has been seen as a parliament of the people of South Africa, but it has not been limited to that. It has also been the parliament of the African continent as a whole.

With such an evolution of history, the ANC has truly lived up to its commitment to being the true parliament of the people, as it championed the processes that moved towards the adoption of the Freedom Charter in 1955. Within the ANC this became the vision of what kind of South Africa needed to be established post the apartheid colonial oppression.

In that historical contest we cannot talk about an activist Parliament without recognising the reality of our history. History tells us that when the ANC was formed, it had an elected position of a speaker, to demonstrate that it was the only democratic institution at that time. Also, central to the Freedom Charter was the call that "The people shall govern!" Therefore, any activist parliament must recognise the centrality of the masses of our people in all decision-making processes.

While we look at this commitment of the ANC from its formation on, it remains an historical fact that the white minority Parliament remained undemocratic and neither accessible nor open to the public, and that included its committees. Parliament was nothing other than an institution used to rubber-stamp and approve whatever the executive had decided. This is the past that we come from and a living example of this was the notorious Natives Land Act, Act 27 of 1913, which was passed by the then Union Parliament within four months without having been referred to any committee.

The 1994 democratic breakthrough came about with real and fundamental changes regarding how Parliament had to operate. This led to the constitution-making process, which resulted in the adoption of the Constitution that we pride ourselves on. I dare to remind you hon members on my left that some of you decided to walk out of this House then. It is documented in the records of this House that you rejected this Constitution that you are now so dearly fond of and of which you act as a custodian. How ironic that your new-found "hero", President Mandela, was in this House as the President of the Republic when you walked out. In fact, you still continue to undermine the will of our people in this House, even today.

Hon Chairperson, it was the ANC that introduced a committee system that was transparent, accessible and open to the public. Others are still unfamiliar with internal democratic processes, and they continue to be opposed even to izimbizo, because they are allergic to consultative processes. Government and parliamentary izimbizo are alternative forms of ensuring the involvement of our people in shaping the future of this country. Public hearings are also central in ensuring that our people and social partners, as well as civil society formations, participate and are able to influence decision-making processes.

The question that needs to be asked is this. What type of leadership must or can constitute an activist parliament? The ANC answered this question in 2001, when it introduced a debate on the type of leadership required to take the revolution forward. This resulted in the adoption of the document, "Through the eye of a needle", which is a guide to serving the people. [Interjections.] I can't speak about others, because I don't even know whether they have the document or not. Amongst other things this document says:

A leader should constantly seek to improve his capacity to serve the people; he should strive to be in touch with the people all the time, listen to their views and learn from them. He should be accessible and flexible; and not arrogate to himself the status of being the source of all wisdom.

Without doubt a leader or institution that provides no space to be influenced is doomed.

Therefore, the most important thing to learn here is that we must never confuse anarcho-syndicalism with militancy. You can still make a valid and valuable contribution without being anarchic, disrespectful and undermining others. [Applause.] In fact, my father just told me this weekend that a person who disrespects others is no different from someone ...

IsiZulu:

... uke washaya amanzi ampontshane.

English:

Even if you do want to listen, because of the conduct you just close your ears, and at times even your eyes.

We must work and win the confidence of our people, and as the ANC we are quite willing to work with all those who want to take this country forward. President Nelson Mandela stated on many occasions that there are many good men and women within the ANC and its allies, but also on the opposition benches. We are here in Parliament as a reflection of the will of the people, and therefore we have the support of the people. None of us here can say he does not have support. The only difference is that it varies.

The overwhelming majority of our people in this country ensured that the ANC was returned to government with more than 62% of the vote in the recent elections. Whilst we will continue to respect the minority that voted for other parties, that must not be treated as power-sharing. [Applause.] We expect similar co-operation, and the appreciation of such goodwill. We are not here because we choose or like each other, but because our people have made such a determination.

We must ensure that at the centre of our activist Parliament we instil the principle of patriotism, and a sense of it. With this being the case, we must welcome the campaign by the Minister of Arts and Culture, hon Nathi Mthethwa, for all state institutions to respect South Africa's national symbols, in particular the national flag. This will go a long way toward ensuring that the co-operation that prevailed during the 2010 Fifa World Cup, as well as the recent massive partnership in observing the 67 minutes in recognition of President Nelson Mandela's goodwill and his serving of his sentence in prison, is carried forward. We must instil a sense of belonging and national pride, as well as a love for our country, our people and humanity. As Africans we are known of our long-held principle of ubuntu.

In fact, one of the greatest revolutionaries, Che Guevara, seems to have taken this principle further as a revolutionary concept when he made the following observation:

At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality. ...

We must strive every day so that this love of living humanity is transformed into actual deeds, into acts that serve as examples, as a moving force.

We have a responsibility to our people and must continue to work with them. We need leadership that does not preoccupy itself with making newspaper headlines, appearing on TV screens and uttering sound bites on the radio stations. We must remain a Parliament of committed leadership, and not behave like celebrities concerning themselves more with popularity. [Applause.]

The centrality of the masses of our people cannot be overemphasised. It is an undeniable fact that a decisive role in history was played by the activity and struggles of the people. The real part played by leaders can be understood only when it relates to the struggle, the activity of the masses, and the social demands created by the struggle. That is what the ANC has taught and continues to teach us, even today.

Unrestrained adulation of a leader, and exaggeration of his or her merits, whether internationally or not, exercise a harmful influence on the people. They have the potential to instil in the masses the erroneous idea that the tasks confronting them can be performed by someone else, and that the leader's abilities and capabilities are such that those who are led can rely on the great man or woman and passively follow the plans and direction of this great person who is supposed to know everything and foresee anything, thus making the rank and file abdicate their duty of thinking and showing initiative in being innovative and creative.

Lastly, hon Chairperson, as the ANC we are quite mindful ... [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: A point of order, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is it? Is that a point of order, hon member?

Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, I wish you ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is that a point of order?

Mr G A GARDEE: Yes. I would like to request you to make a ruling on a matter that concerns the speaker on the podium that I felt ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is the point of order?

Mr G A GARDEE: The lives of our dependants are at stake and making a mockery out of medical aid, calling another party ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is a statement, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: I am trying to check if you can make a ruling on that. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, sit down because that is a statement and not a point of order. Thank you. Continue, hon member.

Mr S LUZIPO: As the ANC we are quite mindful that whilst we are willing to work, and are committed to working with all those who want to take this country forward, there will always be those who will rely on political scavenging, believing that they will feed on the dead carcass of the ANC.

Some will present themselves as postapartheid revolutionaries, disguising themselves as militant and radical, when their agenda is the same as that of regressive white liberals. Such misguided and uninformed militancy provides us with no new ideological or political dimension. It's just a political cocktail or an ideological amoeba – you can't see the tail or the head! [Applause.]

The agenda of the white liberals too was well explained by the late President Mandela when he said:

... the high-sounding principles enunciated by the Liberal Party, ... –

which then became the Progressive Party, and then became the Democratic Party, and subsequently the Democratic Alliance –

... though apparently democratic and progressive in form, are essentially reactionary in content.

They do not stand for the freedom of the people. Thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER

Mr S LUZIPO

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 37

Sesotho:

MOTLATSI WA SPIKARA : Modula Setulo, ke motlotlo hampe ho ba le lentswe kapa a mabedi puisanong tsena tsa mantsiboya mabapi le kabo ya ditjhelete tsa tsamaiso ya Palamente. Ntlo ena ya ketsamolao e bohlokwa haholo bophelong ba setjhaba. Re ronngwe mona ke dimiliyone tsa batho, ba re ho rona re tsamaye re ye mane re ilo ba emela Dintlong tsa ketsamolao. Ba itse re tiise hore mmuso o etsa ntho eo ba ba rommeng yona, mme le rona re tle re etse ntho eo ba re rommeng yona.

Ke taba tse monate ha re fumana hore dikabo tsena tsa ditjhelete tsa mafapha kaofela, jwalekaha re ntse re di utlwa ha ho ntse ho buisanwa ka tsona, ho resisanwa ka tsona, di ya mane moo di ilo sebetsanang le phepetso e kgolo ho di feta kaofela: Ya ho se lekalekane ka hara naha ena; ya bofuma; le tlhoko ya mosebetsi.

Mosebetsi wa rona ke ho tiisa hore mmuso o tsheheditsweng ke rona le setjhaba o sebedisa ditekatekanyo tsena ho tlisa menyetla ya mesebetsi, le ho se amohele dillo tsena tsa ba reng mmuso o se ke wa kenakena ka hara moruo empa ho se na bopaki ba hore bona ho na le ntho e betere eo ba e entseng. Mmusong ba ntse ba emetse le rona hore re phehise ka ho kenya disebediswa tsamaisong ya naha le moruo wa ona. Kantle ho letsoho leo la mmuso le mofuthu, le sebedisang ditjhelete tsena tsa setjhaba, ha ho na mesebetsi e tla bang teng.

Leha ba ka leka ho re tebela ka hara moruo, re tlo hana. Re keke ra amohela tsamaiso e sele, eo ya moruo ono. Diphephetso tseo re tsebileng ho sebetsana le tsona ho fihlela hona jwale, re kgonne ho sebetsana le tsona ka lebaka la hobane mmuso ha o a ka wa emela ka thoko, mme le Palamente ha e ya ka ya emela ka thoko ho tsona. Re ile ra bona ho le bohlokwa ho kenya letsoho.

Le hona Amerika kwana, moo taba tsena le tse ding tsa bona di tswang teng, e itse ha ho senyeha dintho teng ka 2008, mmuso ha o a ka wa emela ka thoko. Ba ile ba re ho lokile ba tla hatisa tjhelete ba tsebe ho tshehetsa mmuso wa naha ya bona, hobane ha ba sa etse jwalo ho tla senyeha le ho feta. Ka mantswe a mang, ha ho na kgolo ya moruo e kekeng ya ba le letsoho le mofuthu la mmuso. [Mahofi.]

Eno ke ntlha ya bohlokwa eo ke nahanang hore dintho tsena tseo re lekang ho di etsa mona di keke tsa sebetsa ntle le hore rona jwaloka Palamente re tiise letsoho la mmuso ho etsa mosebetsi ono. Jwale, re thabetse ha re fuwe monyetla ona hore e be rona ba rometsweng mona. Ba teng ba bang ba betere ho re feta ka ntle ka mona, empa rona re tshwanela ho thabela motlotlo ona wa hore setjhaba se re fe monyetla wa ho tla sebetsa mona.

Ke thabetse mantswe ana ao ntate Mulder a reng motsamaisi wa dipuisano o a buile mona. Ke nnete, feela yena o nahana hore monokotshwai o butswa ho ya ka takatso ya tshwene! Rona re hodisitswe ke baholo ba neng ba re 'lepotlapotla le ja podi; lesisitheho le ja kgomo.' Ka mantswe a mang, o utlwile hore ho tla ba teng ditherisano; yena o batla ho nkela motsamaisi wa dipuisano hore na di be neng, ka nako e feng, ha ho ratile yena. Ha a amohele ntho ena e bitswang demokrasi hore ke motsamaisi wa dipuisano ya tla nka qeto eo, e seng yena. [Mahofi.] [Kena hanong.]

Kabo ya ditjhelete ke karolo ya mosebetsi wa rona e bohlokwa haholo eo re tshwanetseng ho e latela. Taba ya rona jwaloka Palamente ke hore re tle re tsebe ho ba mohlala mafapheng ana ao re a behileng leihlo, hore: Na ba sebedisa ditjhelete tsena ho latela seo ba re tsebisitseng sona ka dikabo tsa bona tsa ditjhelete tseo re di amohetseng; le hore na ba latela ditherisano tsa bona le batshwari ba ditjhelete ba rona ba mmuso?

Le rona, tsamaiso ya ditjhelete tsa rona e tshwanetse hoba e bohlokwa a haholo: E bontshang hore re hlwahlwa; leihlo la rona ke le ntjhotjho; ha re dumelle tshenyo ya ditjhelete; mme ha re dumelle ho sebediswa ha ditjhelete ka tsela eo e seng yona. Hore re tle re tsebe ho sebetsana le thomo ena ya rona, tsamaiso ya puso ya ditjhelete tsa Palamente e tshwanetse hoba e ntle. Ke ka hoo re shebileng mosebetsi wa batsamaisi ka tlhokomelo.

Jwaloka Spikara a boletse, dipelo tsa rona di bohloko ha re lahlehetswe ke Michael Coetzee, eo e neng e le molwantwa le rona, ya neng a tshwere mosebetsi ona o bohlokwa haholo ka tsela eo a neng a o tshwere ka yona. Boiphihlelo ba hae e ne e le bo bohlokwa haholo. Tsebo ya hae le thuto ya hae e ne e le sebetsa se setle haholo, hoo re lebelletseng hore ya tla kena maotong a hae, le yena, e be motho ya hlwahlwa jwalo ka yena.

Rona, jwaloka ba ronngweng ke lona, re hodima mosebetsi ono wa ho leka ho fumana ba tla kena dieteng tsa hae. Re tshepa hore ba tla etsa mosebetsi o hlwahlwa jwaloka yena. E tle e re ha eo a se a kene mosebetsing le yena, a etse mosebetsi o bohlokwa wa hore batho ba tla hirwa moo ho nang le dikgeo teng, e be batho ba hlwahlwa ba tla latela tshebediso ya ditjhelete ka tsela e nepahetseng. [Mahofi.]

Mosebetsi ona oo re o ronngweng mona o hloka hore le rona re tjhoriswe re tle re tsebe ho ba le mahlo a ntjhotjo hobane ka nako e nngwe ho ye ho fifale le ho rona ka mabaka a fapaneng. Re na le mananeo a mangata a kentsweng tshebetsong ka tshebedisano-mmoho e tswang Palamenteng ena. Ka mantswe a mang, Ntlo ya Soboka sa Naha, NA, le Lekgotla la Naha la Diprofensi, NCOP, di sebetsa le Makgotla a ketsamolao a Profensi [Provincial Legislatures]: Ho kenya tshebedisano-mmoho motjheng; ho sheba hore na rona jwaloka Ntlo tsa ketsamolao re sebetsa jwang ho kenya setjhaba tshebetsong, re sebetse le sona ka tsela e nepahetseng; hore na re latela mosebetsi wa mafapha ka tsela e feng, re ntse re sebedisa ditsela tse tsejwang ke batsebi ba tsamaiso tsa mofuta ona wa tshebetso, tse tla re tswelang ditholwana tse ntle jwaloka Bahlahlobi-Kakaretso ba tshebediso ya ditjhelete lebitsong le molemong wa setjhaba.

Mosebetsi o no o motle hobane o tliswa ke tshebedisano-mmoho ena e hara Dintlo tsa ketsamolao, ena ya Seboka sa Naha ka kakaretso le tsa Makgotla a Diprofensing. Tshebedisano-mmoho e re tswalletse dintho tseno tse ntle tse teng. Ba bangata ba lona ke a kgolwa le di bone. Di teng diphaposing mona; ba ntse ba re bontsha tsona jwalokaha ba bang ba rona re fihla mona re le batjha. Re tla kgona ho tseba hore na ke mosebetsi o re emetseng, oo re o fumaneng jwaloka lefa la ba sebeditseng pele ho rona, o mo kae.

Re leka ho hlalosa hore Ntlo ena ya ketsamolao, Palamente ka kakaretso, ke yona eo e tswalang tsena tse ding, e leng mmuso le ba makgotla a dinywewe. Melao eo ba sebetsang hodima yona ke e tswang ka hara Ntlo ena, ebe melao ena e ilo sejetswa ke makgotla a dinyewe. Re a tseba hore Lekgotla le Leholo la Tseko ya Ditaba tse Amanang le Molaotheo, le yona e sebetsa Molaotheo o tswilweng matsohong a Seboka sa Lebatowa [Constituent Assembly] eo e re tswetseng rona re le Palamente.

Tsena tseo re di bitsang mona di tshwana kaofela le tse etsuwang ke makala ana a mang a mabedi, ho tiisa hore ditlhoko tsa mantlha tsa botho di a phethahala, mme re a di potlakisa. Ho hlokeha re tsebe hore batho ba re rommeng mona, ba re romme ba re tshepile hore Molaotheo ono, le ditlhoko tsa ona tseo o di fang setjhaba ka kakaretso, di a phethahala. Re leka ho hlalosa hore tshebedisano-mmoho e tshwanetse ho ba teng ho mekgatlo ena eo re e theileng ho tshehetsa demokrasi.

Ha ho na hore mang o ikemetse, empa re sebetsana le taba e le nngwe. Boikemelo boo bo tshwanetse ho ba bo hlomphang tshebedisano-mmoho re tle re tsebe ho tiisa hore ka mokgwa oo re sebetsang ka teng ha re hatane dikhonso. Ke tanse ntho ena; e batla hore re tshwarane hantle hore re tle re se ke ra tjhaisana. Ha wena o se o batla ho re hata dikhonso, o tla re lematsa, ebe le tanse ena e ya fela. Ba bang, ka nnete, ba sebetsa ka tsela e jwalo; ha ba hlokomele bohlokwa ba tshebedisano-mmoho le ho tansa ka kutlwano.

English:

The institutions that support democracy have a principal function. They are supposed to operate in collaboration with us in Parliament because, in the first place, they are supposed to be defenders of the work that we produce, and the work that is produced by the courts in the administration of justice. They cannot be independent. They are described in their work as interdependent and interrelated, yet distinct. That definition is not only between the three spheres of government; it represents collaborative and co-operative governance.

Therefore, our intention is to be robust in our engagement with them. When we are robust, it is not the end of the earth. It does not mean the collapse of the system. Often our robustness, and perhaps a little overzealousness, suggest to others that the system is corrupt. No, not at all! The revolution that produced the system that we now have was very robust. There is no reason why we should continue to see robustness as a sign of collapse, a sign of decay. No ways!

In fact, many of our visitors who come from elsewhere admire the extent of the debates – which are most amazing – that they hear on the radio and see on television or in other places. They envy them in their own countries, including those that have existed for many, many years. Of course, it is appropriate for us ourselves to judge whether we have arrived where we want to be or not. [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, I would like to know if the hon Deputy Speaker is prepared to take a question.

Afrikaans:

Die ADJUNKSPEAKER: Nee, ek is nie op die oomblik ... [Tussenwerpsels.]

English:

Dr C P MULDER: Not enough time, I guess?

Afrikaans:

Die ADJUNKSPEAKER: Nee, dit het niks met die tyd te doen nie.

English:

You are interrupting me! [Laughter.]

Dr C P MULDER: But, you must read section 185 of the Constitution of the Republic! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please! Please! You cannot just stand up and begin to talk. I have to recognise you first. Please let us allow ... [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Ma'am, how will you recognise me if I do not talk?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I want to repeat what I said to you earlier on, that berries do not ripen according to the wishes of the monkey. Your interpretation of the Constitution is not ours and I do not understand what makes you think your interpretation is the appropriate one. In the first place, let me say this. [Interjections.] Hang on - you will go to court for that. Let us debate it here. I am saying that you should take this time outside of here, please! [Interjections.] Yes.

The beauty of this relationship is that we would like to enrich it. The previous head of the office that supports these institutions resigned to become a sheriff in Cape Town and we ought to replace her. However, before she left, she did some work which was requested by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services and the Public Protector. This was to do a comparative study of the public protectors in other countries. She did the comparative study and produced a report.

In her recommendations, which are interesting, she suggests that the committee that has now been established, as well as the Public Protector, should actually go on site visits to those countries for observation, so that they can ultimately get clarity about their roles. Travelling outside may provide a useful view of the relationship that must exist. This is because sometimes a mistake is made, and that affects our self-image and contradicts with how others look at us out there. So, it is better to clarify those issues through such exercises – to go out a little in order to get fresh air and look at the stuff. [Laughter.]

On the collaboration between legislatures, the SA Legislatures Secretaries Association has produced a journal – they now have a journal as a reflection on the quality of work that they are doing. They have a monitoring and evaluation framework which informs the kind of work that they are doing. They also have an oversight model and a public participation model. These are the products, the outcomes, of the work that they are doing collectively. So this idea of working together, co-operation, as provided for in the Constitution, is alive and well in practice.

What we would like to see is a more robust implementation of that material. It constitutes an important inheritance and it is a challenge for the Fifth Parliament. It is for us to take that work one step further and implement it.

This relationship gives meaning to the fact that the relationship has been described as interdependent and interrelated, yet distinct. In other words, we are encouraged to seek opportunities for collaboration so that we give meaning to the phrase, "working together produces better results." We have the Fourth Parliament and the legislatures to thank for producing that material.

Emerging out of that work, also, is a series of programmes to capacitate ourselves. These are specialist programmes, which vary in nature, for Members of Parliament. We really encourage members to use them. Not only do we assume they are good, and hope that is the case, but we also dealt with them in consultation with you through the forms that you filled in indicating your needs, and also from our own observation and the experience of past Parliaments and so on.

The programmes for capacity building are not only for the good of the committees that we serve on, and the work that we do as parliamentarians, but also for the neighbourhoods in which we live, so that we can also provide better guidance and political literacy campaigns where we live. A conflict often arises because of insufficient understanding of how we operate. The amount of education that we can give is huge.

We do this in collaboration with our universities in this country. We intend to take this work further in a variety of ways by collaborating with the universities. We also obviously do it in collaboration with people who have been trained, with former members, and with those who emerge from inside, as Jack Abbott called it, "the belly of the beast" so to speak, if that is how some of us describe ourselves. We produce important work in that area.

The quality of support that committees should receive is an important point. Historically, this is a problem that members have spoken about. Therefore, we would like to undertake, under instruction from the Speaker, to improve the quality of this collaboration. Other members will speak to this idea.

Let me also say that our intention to improve the quality of the work that Parliament does is ongoing. Every term we will produce the quality support that we must give, not only to committees, but also to the parliaments in the region and internationally, in the work that we do in collaboration with them through our relationship with specific countries.

At the moment people are meeting in Tanzania. The Tanzanians are not going to be very happy that many of us who are here are not part of the delegation that is attending the meetings there. They are some of our biggest friends. Rebuilding institutions of democracy, including parliaments, is an important collaborative effort that we should be working on together. Unfortunately, the priority we gave to the Budget and Budget Votes made it impossible for us to join them there. We regret that some members who have played important leadership roles in the work of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association have not been able to go there.

There are other members here who have produced important work that is now taken as a lesson in how parliaments should be run. The late Secretary to Parliament himself played a crucial role in the administration and in the quality of support he gave, not only in the region, but also internationally.

The reputation that Parliament has built up over time is now in our hands to protect and improve with the quality of our engagements regionally and internationally. We hope that in our interaction with other parliaments we will take forward the best that is contained in our Constitution. Even the private sector, in its engagements with the rest of the continent and the world, should act according to the best values contained in our Constitution.

We ourselves must desist from acting in the same way as did the past regime and other parties of the past. In doing that we would be seen as being no better than those who acted badly in the world, leading to their acts' being described as crimes against humanity. As a Parliament we hope that we can be exemplary in the way in which we interact with the Constitution.

We must fully support the Fourth Parliament's declaration in regard to support for Palestine and other countries in their search for peace. We could not have made the progress that we have made in the last 20 years, if it had not been for the intervention of the global community in support of our struggle. Therefore, we have a responsibility of solidarity with the people of Palestine, and other countries who are facing serious difficulties. Parliament's voice must be heard loudly, clearly and consistently, so that nobody has any doubt about where we stand on these matters.

We hope that we can be productive, including in our practical work, in the committees and in other spheres. It is not only in the work of the Portfolio Committee on International Relations and Co-operation that we should articulate our stand, but everywhere we do work of a nature that requires international collaboration.

I thank you very much for the opportunity and the privilege I have been afforded to participate in the debate on this Budget Vote, the first of the Fifth Parliament. As Presiding Officers, we hope that we can gather the best support we can to offer members. Thank you very much once more. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, the Business of the House will now be suspended for 15 minutes for a comfort break.

BUSINESS SUSPENDED AT 16:24 AND RESUMED AT 16:55.

Ms N GINA

The DEPUTY SPEAKER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 38

IsiZulu:

Nksz N GINA: Phini LikaSomlomo, Phini LikaMongameli wezwe laseNingizimu Afrika, maLungu ePhalamende onke akhona kule Ndlu, ngiyanibingelela.

Njengoba sigubha iminyaka engamashumi amabili ombuso wentando yeningi, sigubha le minyaka ngenkulu injabulo, ngoba sithi uma sijeqeza emuva sibone izinto eziningi esezifeziwe, yize noma sazi kahle ukuthi kuningi okusadingeka sikwenze ukuze sithi uma sisho ukuthi singuhulumeni wabantu, owenza izimpilo zabantu zibengcono, sikusho lokho ngeqholo. Sisho futhi sineqholo ukuthi siwuhulumeni wabantu omele bonke abantu abakhona kuleli lizwe lethu. Uma sibala ukumeleleka kwabantu sibala abantu besifazane, singabhekisa abantu abaphila nokukhubazeka, abantu abasebasha, futhi njengoba ngimi lapha, ngimi ngeqholo lokuthi inhlangano engivela kuyo, uKhongolose, iyakwenza lokho; izinhlaka zabantu zimeleleke ngendlela efanele.

Kuye kungiphazamise-ke ngelinye ilanga uma ngibuka ngakulesi sandla sami sokunxele, ngibone ukuthi ukube bekuyikhwaya yomculo, umile uyibhidisa, ngapha ubungezwa amazwi nje athe ukuqinaqina, ingahlangani kahle nale khwaya. Ngibone futhi ukuthi singasakhulumu nje ngokubhalansa kwamazwi emculweni, kodwa ngisho kuyona ikhwaya yezepolitiki ngempela kusho ukuthi kukhona okungahlangani uma ubuka ukumeleleka kwezinhlobonhlobo zabantu, isibonelo abesifazane, abakhubazekile ngoba phela nabo kufanele babe novo ekuphathweni kwezwe lethu.

Yinselele-ke leyo engifuna ukuyiphonsa namuhla, ngithi kini nonke bozakwethu, nihlale nisho ukuthi njengoba silapha sizomela bonke abantu baseNingizimu Afrika, ake sikubone ngezenzo, singagcini ukukuzwa ngomlomo ngendlela enihlezi nikumemeza ngayo kepha nikusho nje ngezindebe zomlomo. [Ihlombe.]

English:

The role of Parliament is, among other things, to promote human dignity, equality, nonracialism and nonsexism. Through Parliament pieces of legislation that prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination are enacted. We have been seeing this happening since 1994, when we witnessed a mass of discriminatory legislation being repealed, and new pieces of legislation aimed at promoting equality and providing redress for past unfair practices being passed here in Parliament. I can quote a number of them, more especially those that are biased towards making sure that disadvantaged and vulnerable groups like women are promoted. These are gender-sensitive laws.

We know that women in South Africa have come a long way. The ANC has played a major part in instilling in the minds of the people of this country, especially ANC members, that a woman's place is no longer in the kitchen only. We have all seen the increase in the number of women in Parliament since the first democratic term in 1994. At present the women Members of Parliament constitute 39,2% of members of the National Assembly. Although it is sad that we have seen a decline of 4,6% from the figure of the Fourth Parliament ...

IsiZulu:

... kodwa engifisa ukukubalula kulokho ukuthi siyinhlangano kaKhongolose kulokhu kwehla kwesibalo sabesifazane ePhalamende - nokuthi uma kubalulwa kubeke izwe lethu kabi ngoba phela bekuthi uma kubalwa imigomo yama-MDG, nathi sibalwe njengelinye lamazwe ephumelele ukuqhakambisa izimvo zabantu besifazane ...

English:

... where we talk of promoting gender equality, empowering women and making sure that we find women in key positions where they are in charge of the decision-making, South Africa will be there.

IsiZulu:

Kodwa-ke kulokhu kubuyela emuva kuleli hlandla lesiHlanu likahumuneni wentando yeningi, kubuhlungu ukuthi siwuKhongolose, lokhu kuncipha kwesibalo sabesifazane abasePhalamende akwenziwanga yithi, kepha ngozakwethu. Ngakho siyacela impela ukuba baphuthume babone ukuthi bayakulungisa lokhu, bafukule abantu besifazane ukuze sithi uma sima sithi siyiPhalamende labantu elibamele kube ngempela sikhuluma iqiniso.

English:

The same applies with people living with disabilities. When you look at this side of the House, you see that the concept that there are people like that in South Africa doesn't even exist in their vocabulary, and it's a bit of a disgrace. We are really pleading with you that you will please bring them on board, as we know they are not disabled in their minds, and they can make their own decisions. [Applause.] That is why they have came up with a slogan to this effect: "Nothing about us without us." We would like to see all of you joining in that and making sure that they are represented in this Parliament.

With reference to Parliament, allow me once again to touch on the issue of discipline. The issue of the decorum of the House needs to be understood and upheld. Parliament, by its nature, is made up of its members. If there are no Members of Parliament, there can be no Parliament. Members of Parliament are the ones who define what Parliament can be. The recent deterioration in the discipline and conduct of the members is worrying and needs urgent attention. Let us hope that as we begin this Fifth Parliament, this will be one of the issues that our presiding officers will be looking at, seeing how we can maintain the decorum and discipline of the House.

The Rules of Parliament are provided for in section 57 of the Constitution, the Constitution that we are all proud of. However, when it comes to discipline when we are in this House, everyone seems to forget about the Constitution. The Rules are there to ensure that there is order in the House. In any society or institution, if there is no law or no regard for the law, anarchy prevails. The ANC, as the governing party, emphasises discipline in its members, and those who are ill-disciplined find themselves outside the organisation, in the cold.

IsiZulu:

Lapho-ke ngiyathanda ukugcizelela ukuthi ngempela i-ANC ngesinye isikhathi isebenza njengemvelo. Isibonelo, ulwandle singabibiyela konke sikufake phakathi, singazi ukuthi umuntu uziphethe kanjani, singazi ukuthi lokhu esikufakile kuzolungelana yini nalo, kodwa ngesikhathi nje ulwandle lubona ukuthi ukungcola lokhu liyakukhafula kuphume ngaphandle.

Yingakho-ke ngimi la ngigcizelela ukuthi ngempela inhlangano ye-ANC injalo, iyakukhafula lokho okungafuneki ngaphakathi, yikho sibabona bebaningi bakhafulekile. [Ihlombe]

English:

It's because the ANC cannot stand having ill-disciplined members in its culture. That is why we are emphasising the issue of discipline here in Parliament. I am saying this to ensure that members understand the repercussions of anarchy in Parliament.

We will have the executive and the judiciary, as arms of the state, conducting their business in an orderly and organised manner, and having the legislature in a state of anarchy. Then the question will arise, "Who will still respect the legislature?" Do we really want to hear comments like, "The SA Parliament is not respectable"? Why are we allowing that to happen?

Parliaments across the globe have ethics and codes of conduct for members that extend to how Members of Parliament conduct themselves. This is different to what we have in South Africa. Our ethics and code of conduct extend only to the financial conduct of Members of Parliament. Hon members, unfortunately the SA Parliament has reached a point where we need to regulate the conduct of its members.

IsiZulu:

Ukuze sikwazi ukuqhubeka siyiNdlu ehloniphekile, mhlawumbe impela sekufanele sifike kuleso sigaba sokuba nemithetho enjengaleyo.

English:

Another plea that we in the ANC are making is that in this institution of Parliament there should be rules and regulations, as well processes in that connection, that need to be followed. Let us stop turning ourselves into a laughing stock because we run to the courts whenever there is something amiss, where we haven't even exhausted the processes within this institution. Why should we do that? Why are we doing that? [Interjections.] Again, we are showing that we don't trust our processes.

So, what we in the ANC are saying is that we should understand Parliament. Maybe the challenge is that we need to study and understand our Rules so that when we as members challenge, contest, or criticise various matters, we do so from an informed position. Let the situation not be what we are currently witnessing in this Parliament of ours. [Applause.] This is our plea and a challenge that we are issuing to members. [Applause.]

On international issues, our Parliament is doing very well and we have very good track record. The international work done by our Parliament only needs to receive attention from all Members of Parliament. We also need to make sure that the media mention our achievements when we do perform, or are involved in international issues.

The Parliamentary Group on International Relations needs to find better ways of functioning in order to be effective. We have confidence that our House Chairperson, hon Boroto, will steer the ship in the right direction. We saw increased co-operation and effective collaboration on SA-EU relations in the last financial year.

The discussions on the transformation of the SADC-PF into a full legislative body remain critical, and through our contribution we look forward to this matter's reaching finality.

Our participation in the Commonwealth Parliament Association remains one of the key tools for learning best practice from other parliaments, and this contributes positively to the development and growth of the SA legislative sector.

One of the outstanding matters that need attention is a clear definition of the rules of legislatures in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, taking into consideration the fact that South Africa is a unitary state, not a federal state.

The SA Parliament was seen as a driving force in regard to the key resolution and discussion on behalf of Africa at the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU. There is a need to look at the mechanisms for monitoring the implementation of IPU resolutions, especially those that our country is championing.

As I have said, we as a country are playing a very important, in fact critical, role in organisations like the IPU at present. The president of one of the committees in the IPU comes from South Africa. Those are the things that we need to know about – the role we play and how it affects the communities out there.

Parliament needs to enhance its work in building friendship groups with other parliaments. We welcome the establishment of the South Africa-Mozambique friendship during the last financial year. We hope and believe that we are going to see more such friendships being forged, so that we get to know and relate more with neighbouring countries, and as a result learn from the good practices they have.

IsiZulu:

Ekugcineni, siwumbutho waKhongolose siyaphinda siyabonga ukuthi Ihlandla Lokubusa lesithathu lapha ePhalamende lizoba ngelinokukhuthala, eliqoqa wonke umuntu okhona ukuba alethe olwakhe uvo. Asikwazi-ke ukukwenza lokho sihlezi ePhalamende, futhi singathintathi nabantu.

Esifuna ukukucacisa ukuthi neVoti Lesabiwomali esizoleseka namuhla, nesileseka ngako konke, yingoba siyajabula ukuthi liyilelo Voti Lesabiwomali elisivumela ukuthi sithintane nabantu siqhube izinhlelo zezinhlolovo, sikwazi ukwenza ukulandelela ukwenziwa komsebenzi, ngaleyo ndlela sithintane nabantu ukuze siqinisekise ukuthi intando yeningi esayilwela iyafezeka. Ngalawo mazwi uKhongolose uyathembisa ukuthi uyohlale ekulwela lokho ukuze izimpilo zabantu zibe ngcono. Ngiyabonga Somlomo.

Ms D CARTER

Ms N GINA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 39

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, our Constitution provides that all spheres of government should provide effective, transparent, accountable and coherent government for the Republic.

Parliament plays a central role in the governance of our country. Apart from providing for the legislative powers of Parliament, the Constitution expressly provides that all executive organs of state in the national sphere of government are accountable to it and that Parliament should maintain oversight over the national executive authority, any organ of state and the implementation of legislation.

I want to say that this Fifth Parliament of our democratic South Africa must undertake some introspection. Are we doing justice to our nation? Are we doing justice to our mandate as set out in the supreme law of our country, the Constitution? Are we holding the President, his Ministers and our government departments accountable? Are we exercising meaningful oversight over our executive? Is the executive willing to be held accountable? Are they willing? Are the office bearers of our Parliament, the office of our Speaker, the chairpersons of our portfolio committees, and our Whippery fostering the notion of accountability and oversight? The answer is straightforward – no! [Interjections.]

I can give an example. There is a lack of time to study departmental reports and consider them, as we have seen in the last month. We are making a mockery of this process! There is also the fact that the former Speaker appears to have been banished for daring to hold the President of the country accountable! Then there is the fact that we have not been able to obtain answers on issues such as Nkandla and the Guptagate. The fact that questioning and debate are stifled and ruled against point to the failure of this Parliament.

Deputy Speaker, as we indicated earlier, robust debate is exactly what we want. There are continual reports relating to the abuse of executive and administrative office, and corruption ... [Interjections.]

Mr J M MTHEMBU: Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, just hold on. Hon member Mthembu, why have you risen?

Mr J M MTHEMBU: Deputy Speaker, I have risen on a point of order. The former Speaker of this House has not been banished. Therefore, it cannot be correct ... [Interjections.]

Ms D CARTER: That is not a point of order. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Inaudible.] Proceed, hon member.

Ms D CARTER: There are continual reports relating to the abuse of executive and administrative office, and corruption and maladministration, all committed with impunity and with no consequences. This is a serious lack of accountability, with no oversight being exercised in any of the three spheres of government. The National Development Plan itself states that, and I quote:

... there are concerns about whether Parliament is fulfilling its role in building an accountable and responsive state.

It is in the National Development Plan.

In conclusion, I wish to state that the manner in which time is allocated does an injustice to our democracy. Each one of us serving in this Parliament represents approximately 70 000 voters - I know what the hon Frolick will say – and yet, when it comes to time allocations, parties other than the ruling party and also the Official Opposition are penalised. Are the votes cast by citizens with a preference for alternative parties worth less to our country? Are their voice and concerns less important?

Rather than that debate should be restricted and questions limited, the opposite should happen. This is the time to bite the bullet and allow the Chihuahua Parliament to become the real bulldog of the nation. We need a people's Parliament that shows itself as such and not as a crony-party Parliament. [Interjections.]

We need an honourable Parliament where all these hon members become servants of the people and realise that the only VIPs in our country are the voters that have put them there, and then we will see the fruits. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs C DUDLEY

Ms D CARTER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 39

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Chair, the ACDP would once again like to express its sincere condolences to the family and friends of Michael Coetzee. Too often people in positions like that of Secretary to Parliament, who serve their country diligently and with excellence, quietly endure insults with regard to the functioning of Parliament and do not get the credit they deserve. It is a shame that one has to die before recognition is given. Thank you, Mr Coetzee, for your service to your country and its people.

We will be supporting this Budget Vote, which facilitates the work of this amazing institution, this Parliament of the people.

Our fifth democratic Parliament has hit the ground running, with the added colour and vigour of many members taking office for the first time.

Before I pick up on some of the dynamics this has brought with it, I just want to remind you of an issue that is hindering the oversight that the Portfolio Committee on International Relations and Co-operation is expected to do. The committee oversees the work of a department that operates primarily outside of the country, yet the committee is allowed only one international trip in two years, and then it must be a study trip and not an oversight trip. As a result, the committee travels within South Africa, mostly doing the work of public relations for the department rather than overseeing the work of the department. I will leave that in your hands.

Let me come back to our colourful Parliament. Hearing suggestions that recent unseemly behaviour should be dealt with got me thinking that, in the interests of a strong democratic South Africa, we must be careful to defend our freedoms, including freedom of speech and expression in Parliament, knowing that the Rules we already have will bring order, and in time possibly even shape a few attitudes for the better.

When I first came to Parliament 15 years ago, I knew what I knew and I had no problem saying it like I saw it and heard it. I often took the liberty of calling the ANC "murderers", amongst other things. I felt courageous and I was fearless for my cause, respect and humility being ignored in my zealous efforts. I was also rewarded with the respect of fellow zealots who, like me, thought our cause was best served by clichés, sarcasm and being disrespectful. Like the EFF, I did my share of being disruptive and I spoke out of turn, reacting to statements I did not agree with in meetings and in the National Assembly. I was always looking for the most radical way to get my point across. [Interjections.]

Fortunately, not many of you knew me then and, fortunately, I eventually became acquainted with the Rules and practices of Parliament. [Applause.] I also began to understand that it was of far greater benefit to understand the issues from multiple perspectives before assuming that I had the answers. Seeing things through our own eyes is never the whole picture.

My attitude was also reflected in what I wore, favouring pants suits and even sandals. Sorry, hon newbies, you are not as different as you think you are! [Laughter.]

Yes, intolerance and rudeness are offensive. What we must not do, however, is to become defensive and to redraw lines more restrictively than they need to be for the purposes of getting our work done as efficiently and effectively as democracy will allow. [Interjections.]

Right! It looks like I have a few more seconds and so I am going to talk about Parmed, on which the EFF had a proposal. The EFF's argument about choice is valid, and yet those who may end up exercising that choice will not only disadvantage themselves, but all of us collectively.

One of the first things I took exception to when I came to Parliament was being forced to be a member of Parmed. Fifteen years later, at 61 years of age and facing possible retirement at each and every election, I am grateful beyond words to those who knew something about medical aid and managed to keep the status quo. I thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)

Mrs C DUDLEY

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 40

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Speaker, hon Deputy Speaker, members of the Executive and hon members, on 7 May South Africans in their millions turned out to vote in our fifth democratic elections, which also served as a celebration of our 20 years of freedom. The high voter turnout is a clear indication that democracy is indeed deepening in our country, and it also re-affirms our people's faith and trust in the representative institutions created by our Constitution. This confirms the status of Parliament and the provincial legislatures as the relevant forums for consideration of issues of public importance and to address the triple challenge of poverty, inequality and unemployment.

South Africa is a constitutional democracy consisting of three separate branches of government, each with its own unique functions. No one of the three is more important than the other and they include the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. It is no mistake that this separation of the three is called the principle of the separation of powers.

I want to repeat the clarion call made by speakers in this debate this afternoon for members of this august House to exploit all the internal processes before seeking relief from the courts. As cases in point I can refer to the number of cases in the previous Parliament that ended up in the courts – with mixed results.

The last one that comes to mind is the matter between the hon Lekota and the former Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly, hon Mfeketo, where the Constitutional Court ruled that in issues of procedure and processes as determined by the Rules, Parliament itself is best placed to deal with these matters. [Applause.]

My input in this debate will focus on the areas of responsibility of all the other House Chairpersons in the National Assembly, as the functions have been delegated by the Speaker.

Parliament's role in terms of the oversight and accountability model is exercised in terms of the adopted model of February 2009. Throughout the Fourth Parliament specific emphasis was placed on the implementation of key elements of the model to enhance oversight and accountability.

In the Fifth Parliament this work will continue as we move Parliament and South Africa forward. Specific focus will be placed on the implementation of the National Development Plan and on ensuring that all committee programmes are aligned to this very important government programme. As a result, the NDP will be reflected in their discussions and will be the subject of discussions when the different committees do their strategic planning for their annual plans, as well as for the five-year period.

Hon members, during the Fourth Parliament there were a number of challenges, and the hon Chief Whip of the Opposition also raised this matter. There were certain issues that affected the functioning of committees. These matters were identified by us ourselves during the course of our work, and a number of those matters have been attended to. However, the responsibility rests on the House Chairpersons and the Secretary to Parliament to deal with these matters on a continuous basis.

At this point I must acknowledge the sterling work done by the previous Secretary to Parliament, the late Mr Mike Coetzee. He exercised visionary and decisive leadership, and took up the challenge of addressing most of these matters. Various initiatives were implemented towards the end of the Fourth Parliament, and others are at various stages of implementation. These initiatives are aimed at arriving at a permanent solution that will make parliamentary committees function better.

The objectives of the approach that we are still implementing are to achieve, amongst others, the following: To develop strategic priorities for the committees in general and for individual committees in terms of their mandate, thereby ensuring focused oversight, reducing overlaps in the work of committees between the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, facilitating accountability, and improving the quality of legislation passed.

The objectives are also to review administrative systems and processes with a view to improving efficiency; to develop training programmes for staff and Members of Parliament; to ensure improved access to research for committees; and to assess whether the current structure and design of committees are appropriate in ensuring that they deliver on their core mandates.

A number of issues have been raised by previous speakers as far as the functioning of Parliament and the committees is concerned. I am glad that in her speech the Speaker highlighted the issue of the space utilisation project. In this respect the Fifth Parliament must urgently consider the phased implementation of this project with an emphasis on additional committee rooms and offices for chairpersons and their support staff. Currently there are no norms and standards for committee rooms, and these must be devised in order to ensure that all venues meet the minimum requirements and are indeed suitable for our work in Parliament.

Furthermore, the filling of vacancies across the different sections in Parliament must receive urgent attention. In certain instances it simply takes too long to appoint suitably qualified staff to fill these vacancies.

During the debate the Deputy Speaker made an input on the institutions supporting democracy. In earlier discussions the Deputy Speaker had recommended that upon completion of the Budget Vote process a series of joint meetings of relevant committees should take place with the institutions supporting democracy that account to them. This is to be seen as a continuation of the on-boarding programme for members of the Fifth Parliament.

You should know, hon members, that these institutions have been created in terms of the Constitution with the purpose of supporting and strengthening constitutional democracy, and also protecting and promoting respect for the fundamental human rights of all in our society.

It is thus important for the sake of sound relations and constructive interaction with these institutions that the institutions and members have a thorough understanding of the rather complex relationship between the institutions and Parliament, their roles and mandates, and the issues that members would like to highlight for immediate attention. As from next month joint meetings will take place between the relevant committees and these institutions, where they will deal with the matters that I have referred to.

Hon Deputy Speaker, on 26 July 2012 work started on the development of the Public Participation Framework after a decision by the Speakers' Forum of the Fourth Parliament to develop minimum standards for public participation programmes by Parliament and the provincial legislatures. The framework was adopted by the Speakers' Forum of the Fourth Parliament in March 2013.

During the development of the framework, the Parliamentary Communication Services embarked on an ambitious project to solicit the views of citizens on public participation. The consolidated report on these inputs was adopted by the joint political task team of both Houses of Parliament on 4 June 2013. It then recommended that the Fifth Parliament complete the development of Parliament's own public participation model.

This work is critical to ensuring that all our people are continuously engaged in dealing with key matters affecting their daily lives. I also want to add that the sterling work done by the Parliamentary Communication Services is an indication of the improvements that can be made in order to clearly articulate Parliament's views on a number of key issues that do not feature prominently in the public domain. We must make better use of the Parliamentary Communication Services to get the views of Parliament and its committees across.

Parliament is a member of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, and issues of ICT are dealt with through the Global Centre for ICT in Parliaments and the International Telecommunication Union. Parliaments around the world are continuously involved in programmes that seek to enhance their oversight work, while responding to continued changes in technology. I must say that the South African Parliament is doing ground-breaking work in this field and is a leader amongst parliaments.

The Joint Multiparty Focus Group on ICT will be responsible for the development of the ICT Strategic Plan 2014-19 and will also oversee its implementation. Political parties are urged to nominate members of Parliament who have a particular interest in ICT, and also in the development of e-democracy, to serve on this focus group. The first meeting of the focus group is scheduled to take place next week.

As far as internal arrangements are concerned, internal arrangements form part of the responsibility of House Chairperson Didiza. The first meeting of the Quarterly Consultative Forum, QCF, took place on 11 July 2014. This is a forum which, in terms of the governance model of Parliament, facilitates the inputs of Members of Parliament on matters related to members' facilities, such as training, catering, research, library services, information systems, accommodation, travelling and other members' support services.

Experience has shown that the success of this forum depends on the active participation of members. Usually the forum meets on a Friday and you find it very difficult to get the chief whips of parties, as well as members, to attend the meetings. What we then find is a process that happens in international forums, where a process called "forum shifting" takes place. So, issues that are supposed to be dealt with in the Quarterly Consultative Forum here end up in the Chief Whips' Forum for discussion. This is where those members who don't participate take a second bite at the cherry and air their views. Fortunately, there is an agreement with the Chief Whip of the Majority Party that this practice will not take place in the Fifth Parliament.

In regard to the capacity-building that the hon Deputy Speaker referred to, we are aware that work in Parliament has become more complex over the years and this demands of us that we continuously improve our skills in order to ensure that we can deliver on our roles and remain relevant to our society. It is in this regard that the Fourth Parliament decided on and approved a policy for in-house training to be provided throughout the five-year period in order to ensure that members have the necessary skills to do their work. The inputs on their training requirements that members gave during the on-boarding of Members of Parliament will be used to develop this training programme.

The current training programme was developed with the Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, and comprises an introductory programme named the Certificate in Governance and Leadership, the next programme which is the Postgraduate Certificate in Governance and Leadership, and then there is the Master's Degree in Public Administration. The training unit will soon be circulating information on these programmes, requesting interested members to register.

A draft policy on learning and development, which was developed in the Fourth Parliament, was presented at the first meeting of the QCF and will be finalised soon.

A number of members, such as the hon Gina, have referred to the participation of Parliament in international forums. Parliament is guided by South Africa's foreign policy in this respect. It actively participates in the various regional, continental and interparliamentary bodies to promote the African Agenda and the role that South Africa plays in this regard.

Mention was also made of the fact that the Parliamentary Group on International Relations should function effectively. However, we do have a problem there which comes from the previous Parliament, and we would like to call on members to make sure that we do not repeat those mistakes.

The Parliamentary Group on International Relations cannot function unless there are dedicated focus groups for the different institutions that we are part of. The practice has been that very often members are quite keen to participate in international delegations and to attend meetings of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the Inter-Parliamentary Union and other forums, but when it come to the reporting mechanism, where the focus groups must deal with the report, hardly anyone turns up.

I am sure that the experience of this Parliament will be different from the experiences that we have had in the past! [Applause.] The Fifth Parliament will thus continue with the work that has been done in the field of international work and also continuously work with the UN and its agencies to ensure that freedom and democracy are indeed felt and experienced by all our people.

In conclusion I wish to respond to some of the issues that have been raised by members in regard to certain structures of Parliament.

The hon Steenhuisen correctly highlighted the importance of holding the executive to account, and he raised the issue of questions. However, we need to be reminded that the executive do not determine the programme of Parliament. Nor do they determine when question days should take place. The forums that should be utilised are the Chief Whips' Forum and the weekly National Assembly Parliamentary Committee where the questions days must be decided on and put into the programme so that the relevant executive members come to Parliament to reply to the questions.

The same applies to oversight reports. Parliament does indeed process a number of reports. It is the responsibility of the different political parties to use the Chief Whips' Forum and the National Assembly Parliamentary Committee to see to it that some of these oversight reports are debated. If the hon Steenhuisen has not done so yet, I am sure he will make use of this opportunity to see to it that these reports are debated. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N T GODI

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 41

Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, Madam Speaker, Comrade Deputy President, comrades and hon members, the APC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

I also wish to congratulate you, Madam Speaker, and the Deputy Speaker on your election as Presiding Officers of the National Assembly. We hope that under your stewardship this Fifth Parliament will enhance its capacity and that it will focus, firstly, on the fulfilment of its constitutional obligation to be the voice of the people and, secondly, on ensuring that the budgets we pass and the laws we enact improve the material conditions of the people and restore their dignity and respect. Twenty years down the line our challenge is straightforward - to improve the quality of life of African people and to end poverty, inequality and unemployment.

In the interests of the people, Parliament must hold the executive to account. Madam Speaker, I believe that your office must have the capacity to track all commitments made by the executive in this House, as well as the executive's responses to the resolutions of the House. Otherwise, these commitments and resolutions will be meaningless. [Applause.]

The APC believes that the fundamental responsibility of elected representatives is to address the grievances of the people. I see my role here in Parliament as ensuring that things are done – not just politics, which is the opportunism of both the left and the right.

Lastly, I am aware that a letter has been sent to the Acting Secretary of Parliament by the community of Bokamoso in QwaQwa. I hope Parliament will bring about justice for these poor people, who immediately after the elections faced eviction and their lives, as we speak, are completely upside down. Husbands and wives are separated. Women and children are sleeping in a hall with no heating. Men are sleeping in rooms with no mattresses, because, when they were evicted, the Red Ants took their belongings, including their groceries. [Interjections.] So, I hope that Parliament will be able to be responsive and ensure that something is done to assist these poor people. Thank you.

Mr M S BOOI

Mr N T GODI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 42

Mr M S BOOI: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, Speaker, and hon members, it is in our interest as the ANC to be able to put things into perspective. We are the architects of this democracy. [Interjections.] Quite a number of our people have died for this. We are not ashamed. We are not ashamed, as we have worked and sacrificed for this.

What is important is that when you have finished shouting, we should read the Constitution, because it is quite important for all of us to understand the Constitution. If we do not, we will always waffle, and run around and accuse each other.

If you read section 44(4) in Chapter 4, "Parliament", in the Constitution, you will see it is titled, "National legislative authority". I am also trying to help you, Madam, as you spoke about this earlier. It is very important that we guide you. [Interjections.] In section 44 is what the Constitution says about this country. It is the political framework that we agreed upon. We are dealing with a constitutional state – we are not dealing with individuals. It says in section 44(4):

When exercising its legislative authority, Parliament is bound only by the Constitution, and must act in accordance with, and within the limits of, the Constitution.

I thought that it was very important for us to read this, because it explains some of the things that I have to raise. Unless you understand the processes of Parliament and the institution itself, you will be unable to know how much support you need from the ANC in order for you to be able to arrive where you wish to go. As another member said, it is like a war over medical aid.

We want easily to be able to say to you, as other members from the ANC have already said, that we understand that other branches exist. The design of the Constitution provides for them. Therefore, we understand that there's also a judiciary and an executive.

After what I have read out, Madam Speaker, it is very important that, as you take up your responsibility and act, you accept and understand the following. We all complain about the executive, and say that we want the executive to be held to account. However, what is no less important is this: Have they ever violated the Constitution? If we use the Constitution as a guiding document, it quite important – and this is what hon Frolic has outlined – that we should continue to be guided by the Constitution. We should not bash the executive, as if they have violated the Constitution. This falls within our own operations and is part of our responsibility in Parliament.

One of the things that we all like to talk about is how much the voters have delivered. It is definite that they have delivered, and the size of the executive has grown. We know that. However, the hard part of life in respect of growing the executive is finding out whether the ANC has the capacity to deal with the pressure of making sure that each and every member of the executive is held accountable. This is something that has been insisted upon, and I see that the hon Mulder is not here. It has been insisted upon by Luthuli House, and they are not ashamed of doing that, saying that we should make sure that the executive is held accountable.

Regarding the sizes of different parties, this is where the injustice comes in. If you are the only one in your party, what do you expect the executive to do? Must it stretch itself, or should it bring itself together in one House and listen to one member? This is the challenge that is not appreciated by members in the National Assembly. If your party consists of only one member, what do you expect us to do? Do we take all the different committees and put them in front of you, and then you will be able to deliver? [Laughter.] That is the challenge.

I do not know what the National Assembly can do when it comes to that challenge. But that is the reality of what the voters have developed and delivered. They have given you an opportunity, you were voted for and got only one seat, and therefore you are the only member of that party in the institution. However, there are 43 members of the executive that must be held accountable! I do not know what we are going to do in those circumstances. [Interjections.] No, do not make noise.

It is important that we understand when we say that voters have spoken, that they have spoken to all of us. They have spoken to the ANC and to the one-man party. What is expected is that if you want to hold the executive accountable, you must acknowledge the fact that you do not have the numbers to hold the executive accountable. It is then in the interests of the National Assembly that there should be co-operation, and that is why co-operation is needed. That is why it is important that, whenever we work together – because the ANC will go to and fro – we support what the Deputy Chief Whip has said, that we are quite willing to work with other parties.

Furthermore, we remind ourselves as members of the ANC party that the members of the executive are members of the ANC, and we understand what they have to deliver. We have all of them. From where I am seated as a member of this organisation, I have found that none of them has ever shown that they detest being accountable. None of them! They are committed to this organisation and to this country. They are South Africans and have taken it upon themselves to make sure that they deliver.

They understand what they have promised the voters, and that commitment can't be swayed or thrown out when we come to the National Assembly. These are revolutionaries that I have known for quite a long time and they have contributed to the struggle. They have a commitment and they are working very hard to make sure that South Africa becomes a better place for all of us. We cannot treat them as enemies. We should treat them in a far better way, making sure that we listen to them.

In regard to those who have one-man parties, how do we make sure that those one-man parties participate in the system? In this regard the ANC supports the Rules. It is important, using them, to make sure that no member of this institution becomes a freeloader, walking around doing nothing because he is the member of a one-man party. Those parties must participate in committees so that they do not come to the podium and say, "Hold them responsible" when they don't come to committee meetings. As a participant and a man who has been part of these processes, I know that it is in our interest.

As regards those who claim that particular reports have not been presented, I raised the matter yesterday that officials came all the way from Pretoria to make presentations to different portfolio committees. However, I as a Member of Parliament, listening to the level of speaking of our members, feel that none of them were able to tell us what had happened to particular information and how much we had been able to make use of the information that had been provided by different departments.

We understand your capacity problems and the challenges you have. We in the ANC are doing our best to help, and we will never be pushed around. We will always keep to it. We have done it and we have a history and a record of being very humane in how we handle matters of this nature.

We go ahead. There are those that think that we should be intimidated by judgments, but we understand the different branches and how to deal with the judiciary. The judiciary understands how the Constitution works.

They have given their views in the judgment in Mazibuko vs Sisulu. They gave a particular judgment. [Interjections.] I do not have to be told by you. I am quite educated and do not need you to guide me. [Interjections.] No, come on. Keep quiet. Judge Davis gave the judgment. [Interjections.] That is because you are used to being a madam and I am not. I am not going to be subjected to that. There is a danger in South Africa. This is what Judge Dennis Davis said in his judgment:

There is a danger in South Africa however of the politicisation of the judiciary, drawing the judiciary into every and all political disputes, as if there is no other forum to deal with a political impasse relating to policy, or disputes which clearly carry polycentric consequences beyond the scope of adjudication. In the context of this dispute, judges cannot be expected to dictate to Parliament when and how they should arrange its precise order of business matters. What courts can do, however, is to say to Parliament: you must operate within a constitutionally compatible framework; you must give content to section 102 of the Constitution; you cannot subvert this expressly formulated idea of a motion of no confidence. However, how you allow that right to be vindicated is for you to do, not for the courts to so determine.

I am just saying that hon members should be warned that there have been statements from the same judges you are going to run to, to look for a medical scheme to be sorted out, that they are directing these matters back to us, saying that we should work out the solutions amongst ourselves as parliamentarians. We should talk to each other and we should make use of our parliamentary processes. That is why there is a Joint Rules Committee. [Interjections.] I will take you through a workshop. You must come and see me so that I am able to guide you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

What we in the ANC are saying is that if you have agreed with the framework of the Constitution, and have accepted the constitutional state, you should be able to allow yourself ... [Interjections.] Leave that alone, my daughter. You do not know much. I will take you through a political education. At the end of the day the important thing is how you deal with the judiciary and the executive, and how Parliament reasserts itself and its role.

Fundamentally we all agree that we have a responsibility to go back to our own voters and tell them that we have a responsibility to deliver to them, and we need to make sure that we do that. We in the ANC are quite clear about what we promised in our manifesto. We know what we have written in our manifesto. We are going to deliver on that and we are not ashamed of that.

I have asked many times in the portfolio committees I attend: At the end of the day, do you understand how Parliament is made up? This is a law-making process and this is where policies are engaged with. Engage us on our policies. Do not be afraid of raising these issues with ANC Members of Parliament. Why we are able to debate the NDP so easily is because we understand it and engage with it. We understand that these are policy arrangements that we are agreeing upon.

You must engage us regarding how you move around and are not able to set up your own framework. Our system is a proportional system. In a proportional system those who have won the majority of the votes are the determinants. It is not an abuse of power – we do not abuse power. We have been winning power since 1994 when you were part of our organisation. [Applause.] We have gone to the same voters that they have gone to. [Interjections.]

HON MEMBERS: Propaganda.

Mr M S BOOI: It is not propaganda. The problem is that you do not understand what you are talking about. At the end of the day, we have been going to the voters for the past four elections and this is the fifth term. We are gone to them.

In the ascendance of the ANC in the 100 years that we have existed, we have known what it is like when people have walked out of the ANC. We have known how many mistakes they have made and how far they have been able to go.

We have also not used what are called state resources. State resources only came in in 1994. We have laid our lives down for this organisation. We have had people who have sacrificed for it. Blood brought this democracy into being, not slogans or rhetoric. We have been revolutionaries who have understood the class content of this revolution. We understand what we are dealing with here. [Applause.] We understand what a national democratic revolution is. We are not ashamed and we are not appealing to any voters. We have explained our revolution because we understand what it entails. We understand that some of your own members are actually members of the ANC, because you do not even understand what they are talking about.

There is no way that we will be made to deviate from the responsibilities we have given ourselves. There is no way that we will be told that the Constitution will never be implemented, because anyone who goes against the Constitution demands our attention, correctly so. We will never be ashamed of making sure that every member of our society and this assembly is able to work in accordance with the Constitution and comply with it.

I am glad that they are here. I am glad that they have understood that it is important to go to the voters. Now they know who the voters are and they must go back and explain to them why they are not able to fulfil all the promises they have made. [Applause.]

Dr D T GEORGE

Mr M S BOOI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 43

Dr D T GEORGE: Deputy Speaker, Parliament performs a vital role in ensuring that the people have oversight over the financial management of their money by the executive. The people of South Africa need to be assured that Parliament is alive to the fact that corruption in the public finance system is an ever present risk that can be managed by robust oversight and effective rules and regulations.

Parliament should serve as an example by ensuring that its own financial management can withstand the intense scrutiny that it deserves. It is unfortunate that the laws and regulations governing the appropriation and use of finance by Parliament make Parliament ripe for corruption.

Parliament's budget is drafted by the Secretary to Parliament and approved by the Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP as Parliament's executive authority. The only oversight that Members of Parliament have over this process is via a parliamentary committee that was written into law in 2009, the so-called oversight mechanism. The enabling legislation was drafted by the Finance Committee in 2008. The aim was to give the oversight mechanism considerable powers to oversee the Secretary to Parliament and the presiding officers.

The final outcome, however, was that the Secretary to Parliament, the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the NCOP had almost unbridled powers to write and approve Parliament's budget.

They can create and approve a budget and spend Parliament's money without the oversight mechanism or any other forum or body of Parliament having considered the budget; they are not required to inform the oversight mechanism of any impending shortfalls, overspending or underspending, to enable it to perform effective oversight; they are not required to inform the oversight mechanism immediately of any financial misconduct on the part of an official; they are not required to inform the oversight mechanism of tenders issued or bids received; they are not required to report unauthorised, irregular and fruitless expenditure to the oversight mechanism; they are not required to submit quarterly and mid-year budget assessments to the oversight mechanism; and they are not required to submit audited financial statements to the oversight mechanism.

In addition, Members of Parliament do not have free access to information, documents, explanations and motivations stemming from the presiding officers, the Secretary to Parliament or the Auditor-General on issues relating to the budget. There is no legislative imperative for the Secretary or presiding officers to accommodate the views of Members of Parliament on how Parliament's operations are resourced, and MPs are disempowered in carrying out effective oversight of public money and preventing corrupt activities.

Even though the oversight mechanism would be weak, it hasn't even been established. In 2010, the issue was placed on the agenda of the Parliament Rules Committee and officials drafted a set of rules that would allow for the oversight mechanism's establishment. We were informed that the then Speaker of the National Assembly, who was recently re-elected as Speaker, requested the chairperson to take the matter off the committee's agenda.

The Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP are required to write regulations to govern a supply chain management process. When the regulations were finally tabled in July last year, these regulations were weak and lacked the means to fully safeguard Parliament money from corruption.

The definition of "conflict of interest" is so poorly defined that it allows an employee to determine whether they have such a conflict with a potential contractor. It is not considered a conflict of interest to do business with a family member. The Secretary to Parliament can condone any and all failure on the part of an official to disclose a conflict of interest.

The Secretary to Parliament has the unilateral power to decide to continue contracts for which the work is no longer required, or in which there has been a material flaw in the tender process. Moreover, the powers of the Bid Adjudication Committee are not defined, meaning the Secretary to Parliament has full discretion on which bids are accepted or rejected.

The lack of oversight, and the concentration of power, conferred on a select few, make Parliament vulnerable to corrupt practices. Right now there is a process under way that aims to further weaken and undermine the intended role of the oversight committee.

Madam Speaker, the Budget Office was written into law in 2009 to empower Members of Parliament to produce private member's Bills and to amend the national Budget. Such is the fear of government that the members will actually do their jobs that it was four years late in its establishment and now that it is established, it cannot serve individual members, only committee requests. Objective met, Madam Speaker! The Budget Office will not help members to complain of government failure. It won't help them at all.

Parliament must up its game if it is to set an example of how the executive must be held to account for how it spends the people's money. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms J L FUBBS

Mr D T GEORGE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 44

Ms J L FUBBS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members of the House, guests in the gallery – the few that there are – and men and women of South Africa, I do intend to respond to some of the points made here, probably because people were uninformed, but before I do that I really want us to recall that we are celebrating Parliament's 20th anniversary. [Applause.]

Let us never forget that it is the institutional expression of the will of the people. It is the people's will, which is given fresh expression every five years or so. Everyone sitting here represents the people. You may have been elected by a few, fewer than the ANC. Nevertheless, you represent all of the people as you sit here. However, it is quite clear that the majority voted for the ANC, its policies and long-term vision, and it is the best suited to transforming society and the state.

A strong, democratic Parliament is one of our best instruments in defence of a democratic state and our dynamically evolving society. Parliament is the primary institute of democracy. It is the voice of the people, and not the courts.

The ANC fully supports Parliament's budget. A significant portion of that budget can well be directed at bumping up and ramping up language facilities, about which we are all concerned, especially with the way it is sometimes murdered in this Parliament.

The people put us here in this Parliament, specifically in the National Assembly. Yes, we went out and persuaded them to do so, saying, "This is our manifesto. Please put us here." Yes, they put their trust in us. They put their hopes in us, and they put us here in this Parliament, not to dig ditches, but to be their voice, to pass laws and to check on their impact and implementation, what these laws are doing in the communities – and they are looking at us.

Yes, some of us came off factory floors; others came out of kitchens, banks, classrooms, hospitals, trains, law offices, and community work. Here in Parliament, however, we are all equal and we are expected to use our minds and our voices to radically change the social and the economic lives of our people.

Now, the people do respect and admire our having the courage of our convictions. They really do. However, I sometimes wonder if they necessarily respect the courage we have to wear overalls and gumboots! [Laughter.] However, I let me say at the outset, at one stage I wanted to ride my motorbike and I was told, "Well, look, do you really think that's quite the right little vehicle?" So, I refrained, and bought a Morris Minor. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Now, here in Parliament, symbols are important. They are important. So, let us use our symbols wisely. Wisely! Let me tell you, it is neither accents nor clothes that build your character. [Applause.] The people need us to stand here in Parliament as their custodians of the legislation. Let us show them we care, and let us share with our people, because we all have a shared destiny.

To quote the icon, former President Mandela, in his very first state of the nation address here in this Parliament:

And so we must, constrained by and yet regardless of the accumulated effect of our historical burdens, seize the time to define for ourselves what we want to make of our shared destiny.

It is that shared destiny that we ought to be thinking about as we pass Parliament's budget. Surely that shared destiny does not encompass opposing everything you hear or running to the courts every time you lose a debate or an argument? [Interjections.] Parliament is premier in terms of the Constitution and I, for one, wouldn't look forward to seeing the courts sitting here to umpire me as if I were playing tennis! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Parliament has Rules that we, the members, drafted. We drafted these Rules as members, and new members also have the power and authority to review the Rules.

So, let us appreciate that we stood for election to Parliament. Everyone sitting here made themselves available for this. Why was this? Did we want to be umpired by the courts? No. We did this because we believe Parliament is a democratic platform from where we and the people we represent can be heard, and where we can make a difference in order to improve their lives. [Interjections.] I do believe you can. Democracy is about arguing points. It is about deliberating on issues, but no, it is not about threatening each other.

A strong Parliament – of which the National Assembly is one House – with sound oversight measures and systems, is part of the transformation of Parliament. Some of us will remember that at one point it was like the Westminster parliament – there was a Senate with Senators. Then we took things into our own hands. We grasped the new Constitution, the Interim Constitution, and said, "This is not South Africa. It almost resembles a House of Lords here. No. What we need are the provinces right here, here to bring the people right into Parliament." So we then said, "Let's have a National Council of Provinces." Is that Westminster? Absolutely not! [Interjections.] Rather, what we do is gather together, institutionally and collectively.

I wonder how many of us remember that we actually take Parliament to the people. I say this because it is not this building that is Parliament. Parliament is not an architectural structure. [Interjections.] It is the people who are Parliament. We are Parliament! [Applause.] The people. Therefore, we take Parliament to the people. [Interjections.] Yes, we do. We hold committee meetings and when we take it there, we ensure that the procedures are followed and our symbols are there. That re-emphasises that Parliament is not one place. Parliament will live in the hearts and minds of our people as long as we, their representatives, maintain its dignity and earn the trust that they have put in us.

We have above us here the symbol of Parliament. It is about nation-building. If you look at that symbol, a very beautiful symbol, the sun is right at the top. That represents our healing of the divisions of the past. [Interjections.] It represents improving the lives of all South Africans. Yes, we all want our place in the sun. I don't know anyone who wants a place in the snow at the moment! [Laughter.]

The protea leaves represent our people, who are building on the foundation. Those are the protea leaves – all the people who are building on the foundation, which is about an open society. Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and said, "Vote for the ANC!" or "Vote for the EFF!" or "Vote for the DA!" [Interjections.] No! We are freely elected representatives. [Applause.]

Then we have the drum. What is the drum? Of course, some of you may not know the drum, but there it is. The drum calls together the People's Parliament – the National Assembly and the NCOP. That is truly a reflection of Africa, our cultural heritage.

The book symbolises our Constitution, which laid the foundation for this social democratic Parliament and open society, based on and informed by democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights. [Interjections.]

Before I finish, as I indicated I would, I think it wise just to correct what are, possibly, a few misunderstandings – that's how I would like to see it.

For example, we had the hon Steenhuisen speaking about private member's Bills and committees developing their own Bills. Well, let me tell you, as chair of the Trade and Industry Portfolio Committee in the Fourth Parliament, we were the first committee that produced a loud fanfare – we even had a celebratory lunch – when we had the hon Mario Oriani-Ambrosini's Bill here. We welcomed it as an expression of every Member of Parliament's right and authority to bring a piece of legislation here. [Interjections.]

One of the problems of private members' Bills, however, is this, and it is something we all have to think about. When the executive brings a Bill, we demand, for example, environmental impact assessments. We take into consideration the policies. Then there will be something else, and research will be done. There is then more to do with policies. Can we see it? There are thick documents coming from all over, we are wading through this lot, and we are employing consultants to help us. However, when a private member's Bill hits this floor, it can be one page! Siyabonga. Siyabonga. Thanks. [Laughter.] That's a problem! That is a problem.

The hon Miss Maxon spoke about the location of Parliament. I wish it was in my back yard – so do many other South Africans. [Laughter.] I can tell you now, the location of Parliament has been an ongoing issue for 20 years. It is nothing new. Everyone wants it, from Bloemfontein to Blikkiesfontein, and others. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon Fubbs. [Interjections.] Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just saying, leave Bloemfontein out! [Laughter.]

Ms J L FUBBS: Oh! [Laughter.] The other issue is Parmed. [Interjections.] Yes, yes, I think Parmed is open for discussion, certainly. However, we should also remember the cost of other medical aids.

The other thing is this. People want ad hoc things here. We don't examine a matter, or bring a section to examine. For example, there are the Chapter 9 institutions. There are the commissions, and so on. [Interjections.] That's not the point! The point I am making is really to do with the Chapter 9 institutions. [Interjections.] So is human rights. Yet, I believe, in the Western Cape, when a report was done, it was thrown out. [Interjections.] It was said that it was subject to review. However, it has been under review for more than two years, I think. Gosh, how long! [Interjections.] Then, we had many, many others coming in about a lot of things.

Finally, I want to thank the members who shared in the debate, of which I have been part, with all of us. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I call on the hon Speaker. Hon Speaker, I am enjoying giving you orders today. You have defied me today! Thank you for coming up here. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER

Ms J L FUBBS

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 Take: 45

The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Speaker, I wish to start by thanking all the parties for their support of this Budget Vote. I would also like to express my sincere thanks to members for their inputs and also for the spirit in which the debate was conducted. Your contributions are valuable and of tremendous importance, and I assure you that they will be duly considered. There are, of course, a few matters to which I would like to respond.

The issue of Parliament's not debating issues of national importance was raised. Let me reiterate the process that is followed in this regard. Section 42(3) of the Constitution provides that Parliament, as a representative of the people, should provide "a national forum for public consideration of issues". This means that Parliament should afford the electorate a platform for public discourse on, and should be responsive to, matters of national interest or importance.

The procedure through which the National Assembly programmes matters of national importance for discussion is by way of members' proposing subjects for discussion by way of notices of motion, when an opportunity to do so arises during a sitting of the House. These notices are then discussed at the Chief Whips' Forum and scheduled for discussion by the National Assembly Programming Committee.

In the Fourth Parliament a practice was started through the Chief Whips' Forum of parties' submitting topics for debates on a rotational basis. I would also like to add that the Chief Whips' Forum is a multiparty body, which takes collective decisions on the smooth running of the House. As I pointed out earlier, Members of Parliament must ensure that they keep pace with, or are in step with, our people at all times. I therefore urge members to continue to propose debates and work through the relevant parliamentary structures to consider programming them more frequently in the future.

Support to political parties is of importance to the functioning of Parliament. Let me highlight the fact that over the years the amount provided to political parties for them to do their work has increased. Funding support to political parties for this financial year is R348,5 million, an increase of 5,3% over the R331,1 million of 2013-14. The R348,5 million for political party funding is divided into: political support of R83,2 million; constituency support of R248,8 million; and party leadership support of R7,5 million.

Parliament annually determines an amount per member to be budgeted for in respect of constituency allowances. A constituency allowance is payable to all parties represented in Parliament and is paid to the party and not to individual members. The total amount payable per party is determined by multiplying the number of seats per party by the amount determined per member.

With regard to the issue raised regarding replies to questions by the executive, I am aware that the practice in the Fourth Parliament was for the Speaker to write to the Leader of Government Business to raise this issue at Cabinet level to ensure compliance with the Rules of Parliament. We will continue with this practice in the Fifth Parliament to ensure enforcement of this important constitutional obligation.

I now turn to the questions for this term. As members are aware, in terms of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Parliament is required to pass the Budget by the end of July. Therefore it was incumbent on the House to prioritise this matter.

In addition, the Chief Whip's Forum is also dealing with the matter of the questions related to clusters and the matter is not yet finalised.

Let me assure hon members that in the second term there will be opportunities for questions to the executive, and let me add that there is no intention on my part to suppress this important oversight tool.

On the issue of Parmed Medical Aid Scheme membership, let me take some time to explain to hon members the reasons for compulsory membership.

Firstly, while the Parliamentary and Provincial Medical Aid Scheme Act was first enacted in 1975, it was amended by the democratic Parliament last in 1996. Parliament sought legal opinion on whether Parmed complies with freedom of association, as contained in section 18 of the Constitution, and was advised that it is constitutional as it does not force membership of an ideological body, and that compulsory membership is in the interest of society as a whole. Even if it does restrict freedom of association, this complies with the limitation section which provides that it is reasonable and justifiable.

Parmed applies to judges, members of the executive and the national legislature by compulsion, as the state must ensure that members of these bodies have adequate access to medical assistance so that they can perform their duties to the best of their ability. This is a condition of service as a member of a legislature, the executive or the judiciary.

Secondly, there is a good reason why members of the executive, the judiciary and Parliament should not belong to privately owned schemes. It is important that they must at all times be perceived as not being in conflict. By ensuring that they are not covered by private medical schemes, no allegations can be made of a conflict of interest when any matter relating to medical schemes or health matters in general arises.

Thirdly, because this is a closed fund with a restricted membership, if membership of Parmed were made optional, there would be uncertainty as to the number of members and this would impact on the scheme and could make the entire scheme unviable or unstable.

With regard to the re-establishment of the ad hoc committee on the report of the Public Protector, it is important to understand that the re-establishment of the ad hoc committee is a matter that has to be decided by the House and not the Speaker.

As hon members are aware, an announcement was made in the ATC of 17 July of a letter received from the Presidency indicating that since the President was out of the country he would be in a position to submit the report referred to in his letter of 4 June soon after his return. We should therefore await the communication from the President. Remember, "await". [Interjections.] Patience indeed.

Yes, I agree with hon Gina that we need to address the issue of the decorum and discipline of members in the House. I thank the hon Dudley for her positive contribution in this regard. [Applause.]

In conclusion, I would again like to thank all of you for your contributions. As I have said, they have been noted and we will do our best to make sure that we address all your important contributions and concerns. I thank you. [Applause.]

It's a pity we won't have a glass and "Cheers!" later today. Really, it is not good. [Interjections.] Hon members, thank you very much again. I did indicate to my office with my hand that we should make sure that we do lift our glasses, and say, "Cheers!" together.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 18:26.


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